Sylvie Guillem - Ballet Dancer HARDtalk

With me, Zeinab Badawi, from the London Coliseum.

For more than three decades she

has performed as principal dancer at most leading

ballet establishments, redrawing the boundaries of the genre.

But at the end of this year, she retires.

She will undoubtedly go down in ballet history as one

of the greatest dancers of all time, but she has famously been dubbed

'Mademoiselle Non' for being too assertive.

I speak to her about that, as well as

her environmental activism to save the planet.

Thank you very much, Zeinab Badawi. You are arguably the greatest

ballerina of your generation, and yet the irony is you never set out

to be a ballet dancer. What is the sort of lesson in that? Well, I

think it was very lucky for me to come from nowhere. Because they had

no expectations, you know, I was not waiting for something and I was not

dreaming of just one role. And it was for a lot of decisions in my

life. It really helps me. So you actually started out wanting to

become a gymnast. And when you are 11 you were sent to the Paris Opera

Ballet for a year's training, and that is when you discovered that

actually it was ballet that really excited you. Yes, I had a year when

I was doing gymnastics and dance, I was living. Life of the little rat,

the little pupils of dance. And at the same time I was doing

gymnastics. But at the end of that year there was a show, and the

directors of the school, Claude Bessy, asked me if I wanted to be

part of it. She saw that... I had a friend with me, and she was not

really gifted but she thought that I could maybe do the show. I said

yes, why not? Because the night was not really fun, let's try the show.

And the costume, and make up, and finally when you are on stage and

the curtain is going up, the performance, at the moment, and the

reaction of the audience, that was it. That was it, so then you joined

the Paris Opera Ballet. And when the legendary dancer Rudolf Nureyev

became director of that, the pluck to 19 from the ranks of the ballet

dancers. What do you think you saw in new? I mean, I was 19, I was

really motivated and had some quality -- saw in you. I think he

saw that passion I had on stage and the fact that I was always

considering the moment on stage different way of being, being on

stage. You know, and we were lucky. We were really lucky. We were a

bunch of young people, very angry, very motivated. You are a dance with

this great name. But I have to say, because you fought with Rudolf

Nureyev, or rather you disagreed with the choices he made for you.

It's not that, it didn't matter. He was someone really intelligent, with

a vision, and he gave us the opportunity right away. And then the

fact that we were a little bit similar. I didn't know how to

communicate, he didn't know how to communicate. He was shy, I was shy.

Were you really shy though? You must have been very confident at such a

young age, to take on, as it were, one of the greatest dancers of all

time, Rudolf Nureyev, so much older than you and so on. It was a

question of being just and fair, and great saw him as unfair. And he knew

that. Give me an example of how you thought he was unfair? Well, he was

screaming very fast and didn't want to discuss. Just do this, do that?

Yes, and it was his decision and sometimes I thought it was unfair,

he was taking a lot of time for rehearsal and I had something to do

after, I could see my time passing. So we had a fight. Please give me

the opportunity to... It is interesting, the American director

William Forsythe says of you she was the first ballerina to take her

career into her own hands. And that led to that famous nickname

Mademoiselle Non, for being too assertive. That was the nick of

which was given to you by the then director of the Royal Ballet in

London. I am proud of it, in a way. It was funny in the beginning. It

was important for me. I left Paris Opera Ballet because I was not happy

there and they wanted me to do things I didn't want to do. You left

in 1989. Yes, to go to the Royal Ballet, and I didn't want to do the

same thing. When I was offered things I didn't want to do I said

no. What it was coming from a woman, and from a dance, we are used to

saying yes and doing what we are told. Because you had very, very

well reported disagreements with the choreographer Sir Kenneth MacMillan

and on one occasion a full-scale row and people in the company could

hear. You know everything! I do, I have looked at this. Why do you

think you fought with him so much? Because what Anthony Dowell said of

you is that although he is a big admirer of view, obviously, that she

didn't understand that choreographers were gods and ruled

the roost. It is a problem. Yours or Sir Kenneth MacMillan? You know

what, with all those years and all the people I met around, I realised

my ego was very, very small compared with a lot of other people. And I

figured that one it was him, he approached me as being a French

star. It was not anything artistic, you know, it was more personal. You

talk about how he saw you as a French star, because William

Tuckett, the dancer and choreographer, said stardom is

somehow frightfully British. Did you think there was a culture where you

are this is in moving to London Royal Ballet? It might have been a

bit of that. He had been a little bit upset because I said no to one

of his ballets. For me, one of his ballets he was really proud of, I

guess, and he wanted me to do it, and I said no. Is that the problem?

There has been some debate about your personality. For instance one

ballerina at the Royal Ballet writes about how thrilled she was when you

join the Royal Ballet, but she said of view, she just wouldn't have

anything to do with us. She wouldn't talk, where share dressing rooms,

she wouldn't eat in the canteen. You issued a communique saying if I want

to know what the weather is like I can look out the window, I don't

need to go to the canteen and talk about it. That sounds a bit aloof?

No, you have to understand, I arrived, I was 24, I left Paris

Opera Ballet, my English was very bad, and no one at the Royal Ballet

helped me with English, and I discovered afterwards a lot of

people were speaking French but no one helps me. So automatically...

And also I lived through a difficult time in Paris, so it was not easy to

make friends right away and be disappointed. I think at the time I

preferred not to make friends, not to be disappointed. But you also, in

your dancing, push the boundaries and you are famously known for your

ability to stretch one leg up to your ear. Do you break the rules of

that rule of classical ballet, almost, in a way, consciously? You

want to innovate? Or is it just that you want to show people you can do

this? It was my way of doing it, and that is where it was important for

me not to have a dream, not the dream of being a ballerina. It is

what I feel I could do on stage, the way I wanted to do it, and that was

my way of expressing. It was not showing off, it was not proving

anything else, it was not against any tradition. No, it was my way, my

vision of it. Which didn't appeal to an doormat everybody, many years

ago, Clement Chris, the Financial Times Ballet critic, didn't like it

at all, he described your dancing in general as vulgar, is what he said.

Yes, he said that, but they asked one of his contemporaries about

lifting the lead like this, and she said if I could have done it would

have done it it is something people don't want to lose, kind of a

nostalgic way of being about ballet. Of Victorian ballet critic says your

performances can be detached. She says you dance the Black Swan

perfectly lovely to look at but perfectly cold. That observation has

been made about your dancing, one Royal Ballet principal says that

while you are aware of Sylvie's acting while you are on stage with

her, it just doesn't cross the lights? Did you feel you should put

more passion into your... I don't agree, I don't agree at all. Again,

people I used to people expressing things in the past, so they don't

recognise the way you do it. But I can tell you, a lot of people after

said that they read through the story with me and understand it. It

is a way of habit, and when you break the habit of people they are

lost and they prefer the say that you are wrong then maybe they can

see differently. Do you think that, we all see the world of ballet as

this obviously beautiful world and usable dancers and wonderful sets

and so on. But you have also spoken in the past about how, through your

work, you have learned about people and betrayal and stupidity, you have

said. Do you remember saying that, and what did you mean by that? Yes,

because a dance company is a representation of society, it is a

small society there. So you have all kinds of person. It's true that I

was very naive. I said maybe it was my upbringing and I was convinced

that as a group you could help each other and things like this. But I

realised then I was never part of a group. People, even if I wanted to

be, people never saw me as part of the group. Why? Because already when

I was a young gymnast, I was the youngest of the team. I could do

things, you know, I could do things very nicely. And then I was on the

top of that, the daughter of the teacher. So I had to play, you know,

one step under to be accepted. Then when I arrived at Paris Pooraka, the

director said the same thing. She saw that I had quality and gave me

some things to do before the others -- Paris Opera. So to be accepted by

the group, you need to be like that. You hear of rivalry is going on in

the world of Ballet and the most recent example was a couple of years

ago when the Bolshoi Ballet director was jailed along with somebody else

for throwing acid into the face of the artistic director of the Bolshoi

Ballet. And we heard about all the intrigue that is going on behind the

scenes, the allegations of favouritism, bribery even. Does that

resonate with you in any way? Did you experience, perhaps not to that

degree, obviously, any of that kind of poisonous rivalry? No, not at

all. Not at all. It was through the work in Paris Opera and the Royal

Ballet, it was about the work. But that didn't lead to any kind of

jealousy that you are aware of? Promoter who promote the Bolshoi

told me that jealousies are not unknown to me in dealing with other

companies as well. Though of course he said that what happened at the

Bolshoi was outside the usual norm. But you must have seen things? No,

it is the same in a bigger society. You have the same kind of adoration,

hatred, jealousy. You have that, human beings is there, as a dancer,

everything that is good about it and everything that is bad. But it never

went to the extent of being threatened or something like this,

never. You left the Royal Ballet for good in 2007, you joined Sadler as

well and began to work in contemporary dance. Did you see that

as a new beginning in your life? Not at all. I always said I was lucky as

a young dancer to have Rudolf Nureyev in the Paris Opera. He

opened the door to many Corrie choreographers from everywhere in

the world, and contemporary work as well as classical. It was

fantastic. The same day we were doing classical ballets, really

classical, and at the same time we were doing Bob Wilson Theatre, only.

And I said OK, that's what I want to do. I want to experience everything

I can on that stage, whether it is classical or contemporary. And that

is what you are doing now in your farewell tour, because you turn 50

this year, and you've got your worldwide tour where you are

performing in lots of venues across different continents, and it is

called Life in Progress. That is interesting, because that is quite

contradictory title to have for somebody's farewell tour.

It was all going back and having this voucher. -- nostalgia. The best

way to end is to go on the way I did until now. And you are working with

them as choreographers like William Forsythe. You have a new duet that

has been created for you with the Italian dancer Immanuel Montanaro

and. That is quite unusual for one ballerina to perform a duet with

another? Maybe it is. But it is something I have never experienced.

I thought it was a good choice for the type of choreography. I had to

find someone who wanted to do something. And he is a dancer who is

very happy to be there and wants to work. It is a nice experience. Are

you making a stand for ballerinas, you said earlier on that people saw

you as too assertive as they were used to ballerinas doing what they

are told. You see yourself as a feminist, for instance? Well, of

course. There are many things to be learned for women. We think we have

made a lot of progress. But not in the wrong way. Not in silly little

things. I think it is true that women do not have their place in the

world. It doesn't make the world... The world is not balanced because of

that, still. In ballet we hear a great deal. Everybody in ballet,

male or female, are suffering a lot for their art because of the

punishing exercise schedules. But there is a lot put on the size of

ballerinas. We know that there are eating disorders which affect

ballerinas disproportionately to other women and so on... I mean, you

have seen those precious. I have seen a. -- pressures. It shows what

we have to sacrifice. It shows we are doing something we like. Ask

around, how many people in the world to things they like and choose. --

do. That is what I and doing. Most able to go on stage, it should be

that way. -- people. Someone asked me if it was a sacrifice. Not at

all. It is a lot of time and effort but it is great and I chose it.

Sometimes you have the poor who are doing it because their parents are

pushing them. -- people. They have psychological problems and get

eating disorders. But overall it should be something of passion.

Really? The Cuban dancer has said that dancing is not an easy life. We

work hard and we pay a price. People often do not see that side of it. It

is a price to pay. I prefer to have a bit of difficulty to walk in the

morning than to have to wake up every day and go to an office or do

a job I don't want to do which is really... It is only one life. This

one is a place where it is extraordinary. You are living that.

Yes, he did have a price to pay. Yes, it is difficult. But it is not

for the people to know that. And people come here to dream. You are

not going to show it is difficult to do it... So when you get out of bed

in the morning sometimes you feel stiff's since I was 20. It is just a

part of it. Even if in many years to come... I would not change the job I

am in. I have been doing it for 39 years now. I would not change

anything. You have talked about how when you do retire at the end of

this year that you want to engage more with some of the courses that

you are attached to, in particular, Sea Shephard. A society that

protects ocean wildlife. You were on the Farah Islands last year along

with other celebrities. Charlie Sheen. , Anderson. Hugh ERA vegan.

-- Pamela Anderson. What would you say to people saying that you are a

celebrity lending your name to another cause. -- you are a vegan. I

realised that since I am doing that I have changed my life ideas ago and

I decided that... It's triggered something in me. I want the people

do have this kind of trigger to open their eyes and maybe do their part.

So, I can do it because I go in the theatre and I touch more people than

when I go to the restaurant and you have a table of four. Yes, some

people can open their eyes and do something, that is great. When you

left the Farah Islands last year 14 activists were arrested after you

had gone. Does that concern you at all that sometimes activism may

border on the side of illegal activities or possibly illegal

activities? No. What it means is that you put in prison those people

who tried a sickly to save the life. -- basically. They go to jail. But

the people who are destroying... Illegal wailing, for example. The

people who are destroying the planet. It is illegal for them to

destroy the world. Whether it is by pesticides or overfishing, all of

that is legal. It is destroying and cutting the forests. That is legal.

That is not a problem. But the people who want to say, OK, listen,

this is not right, they go to jail. You are a vegan. You say you do not

believe in a single animal dying for you. When you look at the fuss

created by the shooting dead of the wonderful line in Zimbabwe, the

dentist from America who do you get, he says, inadvertently and so

on. -- lion. There has been a lot of backlash against that kind of

thing. People are not complacent, are they? If you can open the eyes

of people against the killing. To kill for sport, for me, I cannot

really understand it. I don't understand. He killed the wrong...

One more animal too many. And people started to be aware of that. But

many things are not ethical as a human being and that is part of it.

You cannot just be doing a sport and kill an animal. You could have the

family going on safari and kill and have their picture in the newspaper

just because, you know, what is on their mind? We are part of an

equilibrium. Animal, nature and human being. One without the other,

we do not survive. So, why, as a human being, we have the arrogance

to think we have the right of life and death on nature or animal? You

told the BBC a couple of years ago that you do not have children. You

have two Macdonald instead. You said, actually... And a cat as well.

-- two dogs instead. You said, why should I bring children into a life

like this? Is said that I2016 1 billion people will be without water

and that people will be killing one another for water. -- you said that

by 2016. Are you not been too much of a pessimist and underestimating

human beings' capacity to adapt too difficult circumstances? If you call

it to adapt to kill each other to have some food or water... That may

not actually happen. You are being very pessimistic. I didn't invent

it. Many scientists have drifted for many years. -- proved. We are

spoiling the earth thinking that it is never ending. The resources. And

it is ending. We are 7.5 billion people here. In a few years time we

will be 10 billion. Already, with the numbers we have we cannot feed

everybody. We are just going on, had against the wall, not wanting to see

what is going to happen. -- head. You have said that activism will be

something you do more of when you stop dancing but do you know that

Margot Fonteyn retired at 60, you are only 50. Would it be possible

that you make a comeback for your legs of fans out there? No. I do not

think so. -- leagues. I decided that the way I am doing it, the

motivation I have, that is going to be it this time. Sylvie Guillem,

thankyou very much for coming HARDtalk. Thank you. -- coming on.

It looks like we'll be starting the new week

Slightly more showers dotted around, the satellite sequence showing more

cloud dotted around the UK to end the weekend.

This brings heavy showers in the south overnight.

It is also, all that cloud is helping to keep the temperatures up.

Overall, it will be an unsettled day, with some heavy showers dotted

around, and come the afternoon it will begin to feel a bit fresher