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Now on BBC News, it is time for HARDtalk. | :00:00. | :00:00. | |
Welcome to HARDtalk. I'm Stephen Sackur. | :00:07. | :00:09. | |
Africa's wildlife is one of the wonders of the natural world, | :00:10. | :00:12. | |
but the fate of the continent's elephants, rhinos and big cats | :00:13. | :00:15. | |
Illegal poaching could see these great species disappear | :00:16. | :00:24. | |
My guest today is Richard Leakey, chairman of the Kenya Wildlife | :00:25. | :00:31. | |
He also happens to be a world-famous palaeontologist whose life story | :00:32. | :00:40. | |
reads like an implausible movie script. | :00:41. | :00:42. | |
The question is - will his fight for Africa's endangered wildlife | :00:43. | :00:45. | |
You know, there is an adage, a saying which goes like this: | :00:46. | :01:19. | |
And yet you have decided to go back, to run and be the chairman | :01:20. | :01:24. | |
of the Kenya Wildlife Service so many years after you did that job | :01:25. | :01:27. | |
Well, I go by a different philosophy. | :01:28. | :01:33. | |
If you do a job and you do it reasonably well, and it gets messed | :01:34. | :01:37. | |
up, if you can go back and tidy it up again, why not? | :01:38. | :01:41. | |
I mean, get it back to what you wanted. | :01:42. | :01:43. | |
I think wildlife in Kenya isn't in very good shape at the moment | :01:44. | :01:47. | |
but I don't think it is rocket science to get it right. | :01:48. | :01:50. | |
And when the President of the Republic asked me "go back," | :01:51. | :01:53. | |
I said, "well, I'll try it for three years, yes, | :01:54. | :02:00. | |
You took over in the late '80s when poaching was at a pitch | :02:01. | :02:07. | |
and the elephant population was going down, and there | :02:08. | :02:10. | |
You took drastic measures, militarised the ranger service | :02:11. | :02:14. | |
It appeared you had got on top of the problem. | :02:15. | :02:21. | |
I think what went wrong is that to head up an organisation | :02:22. | :02:25. | |
like the Kenya Wildlife Service, you have got to have | :02:26. | :02:28. | |
You've got to have the ability to pass over the heads of people | :02:29. | :02:32. | |
who are getting in your way, and you've got to be able to deal | :02:33. | :02:36. | |
And because I had access to President Moi, I was able | :02:37. | :02:40. | |
And I was able to clean up the new organisation, | :02:41. | :02:46. | |
and it was very efficient, very effective, and it worked. | :02:47. | :02:49. | |
Corruption, venality, laziness crept back in, | :02:50. | :02:51. | |
Now it is rampant. But can it be cleaned up? | :02:52. | :03:04. | |
If I get the right new director, which I hope I will do in the next | :03:05. | :03:10. | |
month or two, with a new board I have and with the backing | :03:11. | :03:13. | |
of the government of Kenya, under the President, | :03:14. | :03:15. | |
give me a year and I would think, call me back, it will be fine. | :03:16. | :03:19. | |
I will call you back but let's stick with the present for now. | :03:20. | :03:23. | |
It seems to me you've undertaken an enormous gamble | :03:24. | :03:25. | |
here because you are suggesting to me that the current leadership | :03:26. | :03:29. | |
in Kenya has allowed corruption to slip back in, | :03:30. | :03:31. | |
has allowed the international poaching networks to do | :03:32. | :03:33. | |
What gives you any sort of faith at all that those very same top | :03:34. | :03:38. | |
Everything I've done, I've had backing. | :03:39. | :03:41. | |
And I can call a spade a spade and get away with it. | :03:42. | :03:47. | |
I have every confidence that if I feel the need to encourage | :03:48. | :03:54. | |
the removal of certain people, to put in tough programmes, | :03:55. | :03:56. | |
I'm quite sure of that. Really? | :03:57. | :04:05. | |
Last year, you said, and I'm quoting you, | :04:06. | :04:07. | |
"there is no doubt the government knows who the kingpins | :04:08. | :04:10. | |
Corruption and incompetence have allowed the last great wildlife | :04:11. | :04:14. | |
species to be slaughtered," you said. | :04:15. | :04:24. | |
"No question, there's high-level protection of individuals who engage | :04:25. | :04:27. | |
in the illegal export of elephant ivory." | :04:28. | :04:28. | |
So, are you prepared to name names to President Kenyatta, for example? | :04:29. | :04:32. | |
To President Kenyatta, I will, but not to you. | :04:33. | :04:37. | |
Well, there's no point raising alarms and things of the kind | :04:38. | :04:42. | |
you want me to do when we can deal with it in another way. | :04:43. | :04:45. | |
Our biggest problem, Stephen, is corruption in the courts, | :04:46. | :04:48. | |
corruption in law enforcement, corruption in prosecution. | :04:49. | :04:50. | |
And this is a situation that goes right across the board in Kenya. | :04:51. | :04:53. | |
The new chief justice has done a lot to clean it up. | :04:54. | :04:58. | |
I think with a new brood of people coming in, | :04:59. | :05:01. | |
younger people, and with a president not interfering himself, | :05:02. | :05:03. | |
I don't know why it hasn't been done sooner. | :05:04. | :05:09. | |
But are you going to put your own integrity on the line here? | :05:10. | :05:13. | |
I mean, are you prepared to walk away if, over the next few months, | :05:14. | :05:17. | |
you don't get the right sort of backing, the right sort | :05:18. | :05:20. | |
Well, let me put it to you this way, when the President persuaded me | :05:21. | :05:26. | |
to take this position, I said to him he was a very | :05:27. | :05:29. | |
courageous man, because of course I will walk away if I can't do it. | :05:30. | :05:33. | |
If I face up to an intolerable situation, as I've done several | :05:34. | :05:36. | |
times in my history, I will state the problem and walk | :05:37. | :05:39. | |
We are talking about "the" problem but we need to be specific. | :05:40. | :05:48. | |
I've seen figures suggesting that anything from hundreds to more | :05:49. | :05:51. | |
than 1,000 elephants are being poached in Kenya every year. | :05:52. | :05:54. | |
What is the actual poaching problem, the scale of it, today? | :05:55. | :05:57. | |
When I made that statement you alluded to earlier on, | :05:58. | :06:02. | |
last year, I think we were losing close to 1,000 elephants a year. | :06:03. | :06:12. | |
And this is in a population of Kenyan elephants of what, | :06:13. | :06:15. | |
Between 30,000 and 35,000, I would think. | :06:16. | :06:25. | |
This year alone, to the month of September, we've lost under 400. | :06:26. | :06:28. | |
The situation has already changed dramatically. | :06:29. | :06:30. | |
And in the last few months we are talking about tens. | :06:31. | :06:33. | |
We are getting back very, very quickly. | :06:34. | :06:35. | |
What was wrong, Stephen, is that the wardens | :06:36. | :06:37. | |
were demoralised, the rangers were demoralised, the vehicles | :06:38. | :06:39. | |
I was asking one senior warden why he wasn't getting cattle out | :06:40. | :06:48. | |
He showed me his vehicales, he had three Land Rovers | :06:49. | :06:52. | |
This can be put right and it is going to be put right | :06:53. | :06:56. | |
You are, last time around when you took over the ranger | :06:57. | :07:00. | |
service as head of the Wildlife Service, you armed them, | :07:01. | :07:03. | |
you trained them, and there were allegations that they used | :07:04. | :07:06. | |
force sometimes beyond the call of duty. | :07:07. | :07:08. | |
I mean, many, many poachers and alleged poachers were shot dead | :07:09. | :07:11. | |
Is that the way you're gonna do it again? | :07:12. | :07:21. | |
I didn't do it then and I wouldn't do it now. | :07:22. | :07:24. | |
When I went in the first time, I made it very clear that | :07:25. | :07:28. | |
if poachers continued to shoot at my men, they were now armed | :07:29. | :07:31. | |
and they would shoot back, and in the first few months we did | :07:32. | :07:34. | |
lose a couple of our men, and we lost about 15-20 poachers. | :07:35. | :07:38. | |
Within the first few months, by 1990, I can't remember the dates, | :07:39. | :07:41. | |
but it was about then, it had stopped. | :07:42. | :07:47. | |
But will your men, you know, in your new regime, will they shoot | :07:48. | :07:51. | |
Stephen, if they are fired upon, they will shoot back. | :07:52. | :07:55. | |
Whether they shoot to kill or shoot to immobilise, | :07:56. | :07:58. | |
But there is no point running away from people who are absolutely | :07:59. | :08:12. | |
destroying the natural heritage of our country. | :08:13. | :08:14. | |
In the end, this isn't just about a supply problem, is it? | :08:15. | :08:17. | |
You have to, as part of your overall package solutions to the poaching | :08:18. | :08:23. | |
problem, you have to try to stop China and other countries so eager | :08:24. | :08:26. | |
to import ivory and the rhino horn for their domestic consumption. | :08:27. | :08:29. | |
At the moment, I think Kenya is in more difficulty | :08:30. | :08:34. | |
by being a transit station for ivory from elsewhere in Africa. | :08:35. | :08:37. | |
The number of our elephants killed is relatively small. | :08:38. | :08:39. | |
In neighbouring Tanzania they have a terrible problem. | :08:40. | :08:41. | |
We have had the minister responsible on the programme and I put him | :08:42. | :08:47. | |
all of the allegations about corruption inside his country, | :08:48. | :08:49. | |
with the police and judiciary, all allegedly involved | :08:50. | :08:52. | |
What we've discovered is that ivory has become a commodity | :08:53. | :09:03. | |
and the dealings in ivory have been infiltrated by criminal syndicates. | :09:04. | :09:06. | |
As they have for child export and as they have with drugs | :09:07. | :09:09. | |
And the people who are now controlling it are criminals outside | :09:10. | :09:13. | |
Kenya, often with huge sources of money. | :09:14. | :09:15. | |
They've bought the judges, they've bought the prosecutors, | :09:16. | :09:17. | |
they've bought the police, they've bought the authorities. | :09:18. | :09:19. | |
Now, at this stage, my charge is to stop the killing | :09:20. | :09:22. | |
I must work very closely with others to stop Kenya being used | :09:23. | :09:32. | |
I think we can do that given the connections that I have | :09:33. | :09:39. | |
Well, let me put it bluntly, do you think neighbouring | :09:40. | :09:43. | |
governments have the right level of commitment? | :09:44. | :09:45. | |
But if they can't export their ivory through Kenya, and I think | :09:46. | :09:52. | |
that we can control, then I think the situation | :09:53. | :09:54. | |
You know, it's talked about that within a couple of generations, | :09:55. | :09:59. | |
if the scale of poaching continues on the scale it's been for the last | :10:00. | :10:03. | |
five years, we could see the African elephant disappear, | :10:04. | :10:06. | |
I think at the moment, no, for elephants. | :10:07. | :10:13. | |
I think they'll disappear from some countries. | :10:14. | :10:15. | |
I think black rhino may in some countries. | :10:16. | :10:17. | |
But there is still a lot of elephant. | :10:18. | :10:19. | |
When I started KWS, we were 17,000 elephants. | :10:20. | :10:22. | |
We are now 35,000, despite a lot of poaching. | :10:23. | :10:25. | |
We counted our ivory the other day and we found that we had 137 tons, | :10:26. | :10:29. | |
But there are still no examples I have seen going around | :10:30. | :10:39. | |
in the parks where elephants hear a vehicle and run away. | :10:40. | :10:44. | |
They're still very, very placid, which is a very good sign | :10:45. | :10:46. | |
A final thought on ivory, then I want to move on. | :10:47. | :10:57. | |
You've just said we have 130 tons of ivory, worth a vast amount | :10:58. | :11:00. | |
of money, in your Kenyan government's stores. | :11:01. | :11:02. | |
One of the arguments about the ivory trade is that it's very confusing | :11:03. | :11:06. | |
and very easy for the traders to continue their work | :11:07. | :11:08. | |
because there is this so-called legal ivory, | :11:09. | :11:10. | |
that is, historic ivory, as well as the poached, | :11:11. | :11:13. | |
The best way of ending that confusion is to destroy your | :11:14. | :11:19. | |
If you remember, we destroyed a lot of ivory when I started KWS. | :11:20. | :11:30. | |
The ivory we have today, far more than I expected to find | :11:31. | :11:34. | |
It has been stated to be the case by the President, | :11:35. | :11:40. | |
supported by the Cabinet and the Government, and at the right | :11:41. | :11:44. | |
time, the full 137 tons will be put to the torch and destroyed to ash. | :11:45. | :11:47. | |
That is an absolute guarantee? Absolute promise. | :11:48. | :11:53. | |
Very good. Alright. | :11:54. | :11:56. | |
Because your career, your life story, is extraordinary. | :11:57. | :12:01. | |
You were born to famous palaeontologist parents in Kenya. | :12:02. | :12:03. | |
And this has always interested people, whether you feel completely | :12:04. | :12:11. | |
African in the way that, you know, black Kenyans feel completely | :12:12. | :12:14. | |
committed to their country and their continent. | :12:15. | :12:16. | |
Just try and explain to me how you have always seen yourself? | :12:17. | :12:26. | |
I can't explain why it is but the only people who don't | :12:27. | :12:30. | |
think I am an African are usually white people. | :12:31. | :12:32. | |
I've been totally accepted as an African, and as a Kenyan. | :12:33. | :12:35. | |
As you well know, I've got into politics, I've got | :12:36. | :12:38. | |
into all sorts of situations, which you couldn't do | :12:39. | :12:40. | |
Do you think in English or in Swahili? | :12:41. | :12:48. | |
Absolutely? Absolutely. | :12:49. | :12:53. | |
And if we think about the extroadinary things you have | :12:54. | :12:55. | |
done in palaeontology, and I am thinking now | :12:56. | :12:58. | |
about the discovery of the skull of the boy which told us so much | :12:59. | :13:02. | |
new about the origins of homo sapiens, you always made a point | :13:03. | :13:05. | |
of saying that for you the discovery mattered partly for ideological | :13:06. | :13:08. | |
reasons because it was a way of explaining to fellow Kenyans, | :13:09. | :13:11. | |
fellow Africans, that, in your view, evolution was now proven, | :13:12. | :13:13. | |
that Darwin was right, and that they should understand, | :13:14. | :13:18. | |
Africans should all understand that the notions of God, | :13:19. | :13:20. | |
of tribal myth, couldn't trump science and rationality. | :13:21. | :13:30. | |
You're opening a Pandora's box but let me comment on some | :13:31. | :13:33. | |
I think the Turkana Boy, not the skeleton, which was found | :13:34. | :13:41. | |
in 1984, went a long way to persuading not just Africans, | :13:42. | :13:44. | |
but Europeans and Chinese and Americans, who are much more | :13:45. | :13:47. | |
in the camp of fundamentalism than Kenyans are, that | :13:48. | :13:50. | |
here was evidence that at least 1.5 million years ago there was a full | :13:51. | :13:54. | |
skeleton that you or anyone who wasn't a specialist | :13:55. | :13:56. | |
It was embedded in rock that could clearly be dated. | :13:57. | :14:08. | |
You know, in Turkana now, for the second year they've had | :14:09. | :14:11. | |
a festival with close to 5,000 Turkana and other Kenyans attending. | :14:12. | :14:14. | |
The festival is entitled: "Welcome home, the cradle of humanity." | :14:15. | :14:16. | |
Now this is one of the greatest assets Turkana considers it has, | :14:17. | :14:20. | |
and I think Africa is beginning to recognise that our | :14:21. | :14:22. | |
I think we're beginning to realise that blue-eyed guys like you, | :14:23. | :14:27. | |
and Scandinavians and people from all over the world, | :14:28. | :14:29. | |
actually are part of the African diaspora. | :14:30. | :14:31. | |
But you want the lesson to go even further. | :14:32. | :14:53. | |
You said, it is important to educate boys | :14:54. | :14:55. | |
and girls in the developing world that their destiny belongs to them. | :14:56. | :15:06. | |
It won't be decided by a god, it will be decided by their knowledge | :15:07. | :15:10. | |
and their commitment to build the planet. | :15:11. | :15:13. | |
Do you feel that approach to life, sort of a philosophy, | :15:14. | :15:15. | |
a rational philosophy of life, is making inroads | :15:16. | :15:18. | |
I think it's slow but it's coming and we are beginning to recognise | :15:19. | :15:26. | |
that our problems with disease, HIV, ebola, crop pathogens, | :15:27. | :15:29. | |
these have been caused by new things that have evolved and changed. | :15:30. | :15:41. | |
And the only science is going to deal with them. | :15:42. | :15:46. | |
We have our young scientists, we have our laboratories, | :15:47. | :15:51. | |
and we recognise this is the way to tackle the future rather | :15:52. | :15:54. | |
than the relying on aid from other countries. | :15:55. | :15:56. | |
We are a long way from where I want to be, but I think it is coming | :15:57. | :16:00. | |
And I think more and more young people are beginning to recognise | :16:01. | :16:05. | |
that we cannot expect the British for Americans or Chinese | :16:06. | :16:08. | |
to constantly bail us out of our own problems. | :16:09. | :16:11. | |
I would not want to be temporary second these challenges are easy. -- | :16:12. | :16:19. | |
would not want to pretend for a second that these challenges. | :16:20. | :16:21. | |
It comes down to this very personal issue of the degree | :16:22. | :16:24. | |
to which you are working from the inside or the degree | :16:25. | :16:27. | |
to which for some Kenyans sometimes see you like an outsider. | :16:28. | :16:30. | |
I have seen no sign of that, either favourable or negative. | :16:31. | :16:33. | |
You have talked yourself to the degree to which some | :16:34. | :16:37. | |
of the things you have said, particularly about the wildlife | :16:38. | :16:40. | |
issue in Kenya, you have had people out to kill you. | :16:41. | :16:43. | |
If you pick on criminals in England, you don't think | :16:44. | :16:45. | |
they are looking for ways to get even with you? | :16:46. | :16:48. | |
If you're fingered and you lose your career or your source of money, | :16:49. | :16:53. | |
You're not unpopular because you're white, | :16:54. | :16:56. | |
you're unpopular because you pulled the plug on their scheme. | :16:57. | :16:59. | |
It would happen here just as easily. I haven't been picked on as somebody | :17:00. | :17:09. | |
who is white. I have been picked on as | :17:10. | :17:10. | |
an individual who said, enough is enough, stop stealing | :17:11. | :17:13. | |
the resources of the country. People do not know your | :17:14. | :17:15. | |
incredible life story. They will not know that you lost | :17:16. | :17:18. | |
both of your legs in a plane Your light aircraft, | :17:19. | :17:21. | |
the engine cut out. You have always said you believe | :17:22. | :17:27. | |
that plane was sabotaged. I have no proof that it was not | :17:28. | :17:31. | |
and I have no proof it was. I have always said, what happened | :17:32. | :17:37. | |
happened and we need I still have reasonable grounds | :17:38. | :17:39. | |
for thinking it was interfered with. But you, in your own mind, think you | :17:40. | :17:43. | |
know who is responsible? And remember, my legs could have | :17:44. | :17:52. | |
lost me, and they didn't. The point remains, I suppose, | :17:53. | :18:12. | |
bringing it back to your life's work at the moment, which is all | :18:13. | :18:19. | |
about conservation and wildlife, there are people working alongside | :18:20. | :18:22. | |
you, a lot of Kenyans You have warned them that they, too, | :18:23. | :18:24. | |
must expect to face real It is reality, but it | :18:25. | :18:31. | |
should not be overstated. I think you can probably do far more | :18:32. | :18:39. | |
now than you could, 30 years ago. You still say there are a lot | :18:40. | :18:46. | |
of rotten people at the very heart Do you not think there are a lot | :18:47. | :18:50. | |
of people in America or Canada, or France, or even - | :18:51. | :19:06. | |
I don't know about this sacred There are a lot of people | :19:07. | :19:10. | |
in public life everywhere. At our situation of development, | :19:11. | :19:13. | |
some of them would use rougher But we cannot sit back, | :19:14. | :19:16. | |
we have to fight back. Listen, do you realise how few | :19:17. | :19:20. | |
terrorist attacks we have had compareds to how many | :19:21. | :19:24. | |
there might have been? Kenya is really doing its utmost | :19:25. | :19:26. | |
to prevent the fundamentalist You have no idea what efforts have | :19:27. | :19:29. | |
been made to sustain a free That is an optimistic | :19:30. | :19:34. | |
message to take away. Just one other thing I want to put | :19:35. | :19:40. | |
to you before we finish - which is not the enemies you might | :19:41. | :19:44. | |
have made among those nefarious to smill make a living out | :19:45. | :19:47. | |
of poaching, you have at least made enemies, within the conservation | :19:48. | :19:59. | |
movement for somethng that has been discussed of late inside Kenya | :20:00. | :20:03. | |
and in Tanzania as well, which is the future | :20:04. | :20:05. | |
of the Serengeti, and the idea that built across this wonderful national | :20:06. | :20:08. | |
park, because resources need to travel from central | :20:09. | :20:12. | |
Africa to the coast. You support the construction | :20:13. | :20:17. | |
of an elevated highway, right across one | :20:18. | :20:19. | |
of the most precious pieces of wild territory | :20:20. | :20:21. | |
in all of Africa. Because if you are going to develop | :20:22. | :20:23. | |
Tanzania the way it is developing, with a new port going in, | :20:24. | :20:35. | |
one of the biggest ports in East Africa, if you are going | :20:36. | :20:39. | |
to develop seaports on Lake Victoria, huge ones, | :20:40. | :20:41. | |
and have cities of several million people, how will you get | :20:42. | :20:44. | |
the produce out? If we take the initiative | :20:45. | :20:49. | |
and say let's put it up, so the animals can | :20:50. | :20:52. | |
go underneath, we can The point is you have to build that. | :20:53. | :21:04. | |
There is the resources required, the expense, and also the disruption. | :21:05. | :21:05. | |
I have been lucky enough to see the wildebeest migration... | :21:06. | :21:08. | |
All of the experts, one says the cost of this alone will be ten | :21:09. | :21:14. | |
It will be so disruptive, we cannot let it happen. | :21:15. | :21:20. | |
If it costs 50 times or 100 times, it has to be done | :21:21. | :21:24. | |
to save the Serengeti's ecosystem, which affects Tanzanias, | :21:25. | :21:34. | |
-- Tanzanians, Kenyans, and ultimately is our global | :21:35. | :21:36. | |
You cannot allow a parliament in Tanzania ten years from now | :21:37. | :21:39. | |
to say that economically we have to do it. | :21:40. | :21:42. | |
We have two start the process of winning friends, now. | :21:43. | :21:45. | |
There are miles of highways in America, in Europe. | :21:46. | :21:47. | |
What is wrong with putting a road up, if the animals can | :21:48. | :21:55. | |
Most of the conservationists, most of the people involved | :21:56. | :22:02. | |
in engineering projects across the world, have looked | :22:03. | :22:04. | |
Everything that has worked in the world, that has been | :22:05. | :22:09. | |
ambitious and dramatic, there have been thousands | :22:10. | :22:11. | |
I say, get off your rear end, we will lose | :22:12. | :22:22. | |
We must find out how we can sustain the ecology, | :22:23. | :22:29. | |
the wildlife migration, the integrity of the park, | :22:30. | :22:31. | |
highway, and provide effective, efficient transportation. | :22:32. | :22:41. | |
And this makes me smile even thinking about it. | :22:42. | :22:48. | |
There are plans afoot, led by Angelina Jolie, | :22:49. | :22:51. | |
Her husband, Brad Pitt, is mooted to be the young Richard | :22:52. | :22:58. | |
If somebody could produce a film in which people of reputation | :22:59. | :23:09. | |
starred and if the Richard Leakey played by Brad Pitt said, | :23:10. | :23:13. | |
"enough killing of elephants, Chinese must not use ivory," | :23:14. | :23:17. | |
and Angelina Jolie said the same thing, that has far more impact | :23:18. | :23:20. | |
than if Richard Leakey were to say the same thing. | :23:21. | :23:24. | |
It is based on your book, Wildlife Wars. | :23:25. | :23:30. | |
Is this a war to save Africa's wildlife that you believe | :23:31. | :23:33. | |
We have to save the planet, not just in East Africa, | :23:34. | :23:38. | |
but we have got to stop the killing of the rhino, | :23:39. | :23:41. | |
And we have to have something that everybody cares | :23:42. | :23:45. | |
We need to have a heritage that everybody cares for. | :23:46. | :23:50. | |
If you can kill the market, and China is a big market, | :23:51. | :23:55. | |
and I think powerful Hollywood films could change a lot of attitudes. | :23:56. | :23:59. | |
You were talking about the market. That is a way to do it. Burning | :24:00. | :24:03. | |
ivory is another way. We might not succeed, | :24:04. | :24:04. | |
but if we did not think we might, | :24:05. | :24:10. |