Nigel Owens - International Rugby Union Referee HARDtalk

Welcome to HARDtalk, I'm Zeinab Badawi.

The recent Rugby World Cup was the biggest in the best so far. Records

were broken on and off the pitch and the numbers of spectators and

viewers on TV reached well over 100 million. My guest is Nigel Owens,

the Welshman who refereed the exciting final and is one of the

most respected professionals in the game.

But it has not been an easy journey to the top of the game for him.

As a gay man in a macho sport, he has suffered depression,

How has the world of rugby embraced him, and what is

Thank you. So it must have been a high point of your career. The high

point, when you were that referee in that exciting final between New

Zealand and Australia? Yes, I think it is. That is the pinnacle, really,

for the player the pinnacle of their career would be playing the final,

and the same goes for refereeing. That's it. That is the top, the

biggest game in the world. It only happens every four years. So it was

a great privilege and honour to be a part of it, really, a small part of

it but important part of it. A great final as well. Give us an idea,

where were you when you were told you would be referee? We get

together Monday to discuss any issues that need to be discussed,

things we did well and things we need to do better, as a group of

referees, and then after that we get told them. I was told on the Monday

before the final that I was doing it. You whooped for joy, did you? I

did and I didn't. A little part of me knew I was in with a chance

because I had refereed very well throughout the tournament. And when

the announcements came of the semifinals, I wasn't involved at all

and some of the other referee said congratulations, you will be

refereeing the final. You don't really know until you are told. I

knew I was in with a shout at you don't actually know until you are

told. It was a bit of relief, really, and relief that I had got

the final. And yes, you know, I was very humbled, and had a big smile on

my face. He is in my eyes as well. But you have said that referees are

often seen as the bad guys, and you have said it is the most hated job

after traffic wardens -- tears in my eyes. The biggest challenge is not

to let it get you. Why do you think it is such a hated job? If you do

your job, you it right, you are going to be half of the stadium or

half of the spectators who are not going to agree with the decisions

you make, because their team have lost. And a lot of people who follow

rugby, same as football or any other sport, a patriotic about their own

sport. They want their team to win. And offer the referee gets the blame

for that. So yes, when they say, after traffic wardens, it is

apparently the most hated job, they are pretty right in what they say.

You have also said there has not been a game that you haven't made a

mistake. Your father said you made a mistake in the final when you Mr

Ford passed during and New Zealand, All Blacks attacking move. -- missed

a forward pass. Every single one of my games in 28 years I will have

made a mistake. My full intention now is to go on and referee in 2019,

and for the next four years or five years or however long it will be I

will make mistakes again in every game. It is impossible to referee a

game of rugby and not make a mistake. But when that mistake can

actually affect the outcome of the game, as your fellow referee from

South Africa was the referee in that match between Australia and...

Against Scotland, and Scotland was knocked out because of a penalty

that he was criticised for awarding to Australia, world Rugby cup said

he had made a mistake. Do you think they should have stated that so

publicly? Look, we don't... There is a code of conduct, really, an

unwritten rule that is referees we never comment on other referee 's'

decisions. That is made for the powers that be to deal with. They

will have sat down with him and disgusted together with him, and

will have come out with the outcome that they felt was appropriate to

do. And that is what they decided to do. And we were not privy to that as

a group of referees, to that conversation. So it would be unfair

for me to comment on that decision, really. But when you do, and as I

said, in the 20 years I have been refereeing I will have made

mistakes. And when I run my father after the final and said, you know,

the first thing he said when he came on the phone was how the hell did

you miss that forward pass? Thankfully the better you get the

better you are at your job, the little mistakes you make don't

really matter. Missing that forward pass which I did didn't change the

outcome of the game in. And that is the best you can hope for. It is a

different kind of mistake, do you think, when it doesn't change the

outcome of the game? However, not every body was as sanguine as you

were. A writer for the Sydney Daily Telegraph said that that match

wasn't helped that the referee Nigel Owens dudded Australia with several

Crook decisions that either lead to New Zealand point or denied the

Wallabies some. That is exactly what I was going back to at the

beginning. When you have a set of supporters that support their own

team, the referee always get the blame. And everybody is entitled to

their opinions. What we as referees know that we are doing it to the

best of our ability, and when you do make mistakes and again you make

mistakes. And you can't... You know, you can't defend, if you made a

mistake you made a mistake. And in that game I missed a forward pass.

But that doesn't change the outcome of the game in any way. But that is

the best you can hope for as a referee. What about the video

referee, known as the TMO, the television match official, how has

that changed the game? I think it has changed the game for the good,

but also as well we've got to be careful we don't overuse it. I think

it is humanly possible for you to referee a test match game of rugby

without having technology to get those key decisions right. So you

need technology there, and the technology is there to stay. And

it... Has it helped? Has helped in getting big decisions right which in

other times, it would have been humanly impossible to get a decision

right. How do you use it well? Captain 's' challenge, allowing a

certain number? That is something they have spoken about, a captain

's' challenge, that is something for world Rugby to look at and try it

and see if it worked. That would be a good idea as long as it is not

overuse. The only problem with technology as you can't overuse it.

If you overuse it stem the flow of the game and takes away from the

game itself and what we as referees need to do is we need to get better

at using it. And we need to be sure were using it only when it is

necessary and we don't overuse it. And that is what we need to do. If

it is a captain 's' challenge, it could be something well worth

thinking about. I would only go for it, if I was in charge of the

choice, I would go for one challenge per game. Because if you are going

for one challenge, all of a sudden you are going to have four stoppages

in the game. Plus the team itself if the try is scored or not. We have

talked about this high point in your career, but it was a tough path for

you. And just in your autobiography, Halftime, you talked about for

instance how in April 1996 you tried to commit suicide by taking an

overdose of pills. You talked about the pressures of being a gay man in

what is after all a very macho sport, the depression, the eating

disorders. I mean, just give us an idea of what it was like then, and a

tough decision that you took in 2007 to come out. I think there are two

challenges to overcome. I think the biggest challenge that anybody comes

across in their life, and the biggest challenge I ever had to come

across, was accepting who I was. I was becoming somebody I didn't want

to be. Being gay to me was... I was 19 years of age, living in a small

village West Wales, had never seen or never met a gay person before.

Didn't know what being gay was all about. So I was fighting against

becoming somebody I didn't want to be. And that put me in a very bad

place. I was quite obese at the time, I lost a lot of weight by

making myself ill the wrong way, the unhealthy way. I went to the gym to

try and put more muscles on and then I became hooked on steroids, and

between steroids, bully me in the state of depression, I went to a

very dark place. -- bulimia. And I did something one night that I will

regret for the rest of my life. I left a note from a mum and dad is

that I couldn't carry on any more. And to think of my mum and dad, I

was an only child and my mum and dad getting up in the morning and

reading that note, and wondering to themselves, is he still with us or

not, that is something that I will never ever forgive myself for doing.

And I got taken to the hospital, airlifted to hospital, and I was in

intensive care for quite a few days. And when I came round my doctor told

me in no uncertain terms, another 20 minutes and it would have been too

late to save you. So I was a very, very lucky young man. And my mum and

dad came to see me and my mum said if you ever do anything like that

again then you take me and your dad with you, because we don't want to

live our lives without you. And I sat up in bed that night after I got

home and thought to myself I need to grow up here. I need to accept who I

am. And that was the biggest challenge. The challenge of

refereeing the World Cup Final with millions and millions of people

watching at home, and all the pressures it brings, you know, a

couple of weekends ago, is nothing compared to the challenge I had to

overcome in my life, and I overcame that is challenged only by accepting

who I was. And then, after that, there was the next challenge of how

was I, as now a gay man, nobody out in the world of rugby, I was the

first to come out in the professional rugby union in 2005

2006, before I came out in 2007, I was not in a state of depression as

I was before, but I was still worried because I was living a lie.

And it was coming to a stage where I was going to have to make a

decision. And this is a decision that nobody should have to make. No

human being should have to make a decision not being who they are or

choosing to participate in the sport they love. But I was at that stage,

I thought, I will have to make its decision. Either live my life is a

lie and continue refereeing, or I give up refereeing so I can live my

life. And no one should have to make that decision. At that is what I

felt I had to make. Thankfully didn't come to that. The Welsh Rugby

union supported me fully. Every body in the community, the players, Barry

Williams, that captains of the Ospreys at the time, and an ex-

British Lion Hawker as well. They came up to me and said they totally

respect what I had done -- hooker. And all boys are fully supportive of

you. And that is why I think rugby has shown that, to me, it is not

only the greatest team sport in the world on the field, but without a

shadow of a doubt the greatest of team sports in the world off the

field. I couldn't be who I am today if it wasn't for rugby. Well, your

fellow Welshman Gareth Thomas was the first openly gay professional

rugby union player when he came out in December 2009, and he said it was

a really tough decision for him to make. It is rugby is such a macho

sport, and in fact he said he had to be tougher than the toughest player

just to make a point. Do you feel that his move, his decision and

yours, has helped perhaps emphasise the more sensitive, empathetic side

of rugby, so it is easier for younger players to come out now? A

lot of people told me what I came out I was brave. I'm not quite sure

I agree with that. For me the brave people out there are the people who

risk their lives and go to save people's lives, the air rescue, the

air ambulance, the people who go into the waters and the sea to pull

people out and save their lives and put their own lives at risk. To me,

the people who go to fight for peace in this world, those to me are the

brave people, who put their lives on the line. To me it wasn't brave. It

was something I had to do. But I will tell you a true story now which

I think will sum it all up. I went to do a talk in a school in West

Wales about homophobia in sport and bullying. I was bullied in school as

well when I was younger. So I patron and anti- bullying charity. So I

went to talk about homophobia and anti- bullying in sport. They had a

workshop in the morning, and in the afternoon they were brought together

in groups. The question they asked was what would you do at your best

friend was gay? And this kid, 13 or 14 years, was a tough guy in school,

he was playing for the rugby team. He was one of the tough guys,

everybody looked up to him. And he said I wouldn't speak to them any

more. They wouldn't be my best friend if they told me I was gay. So

in the afternoon I came in, and I did my talk, the question-and-answer

sessions, and one of the first kids to come afterwards and shake my

hands and asked about rugby and where are you refereeing next? And

he wanted a photo and wanted an autograph, was this kid, and I knew

nothing about what had happened in the morning. And I knew nothing

about what had happened in the morning. Teachers came over to me

and he said did you know, this morning that kid told me if his best

friend told me he was gay he wouldn't speak to him any more. He

has just come to me now and told me, I have changed my mind. She said

why have you change your mind? And he said well, if Nigel Owens is gay,

then it must be OK. You were a target of homophobic

attacks an you get a lot of it on social media, so it's still part of

the deal, is it not? Look, I think, you know, since - since time has

begun, there's been a minority of bad people. I'm afraid in the next

thousands of years there'll be a minority of bad people. So no matter

how many barriers you break down, how much society changes, how much

respect we can install in people in society, which society lacks one

important thing - respect. Rugby upholds that respect, probably

better than a loot of other sports. But there's always be a minority,

always be a minority of bad people that don't like certain people

whether it's the colour of their skin, what country they come from,

their religious belief or sexual orientation. But thankfully those

minorities are getting less and less. And people make a difference.

People like Gareth who come out, the people who make the difference a

the-the-are the people who go everyday, who don't sit by and

ignore it... Compared to football fans, for instance, rugby fans

supporters are relatively well behaved but you talk about respect

and respect for authority in Rugby Union and league. I mean, as I said

it's relatively more than it is in football, but isn't rugby getting a

bit more cynical or rather clever? I'm talking about the All Blacks,

New Zealand's captain, Ritchie McCaw. I'll tell you what The Times

newspaper said in March this year - there does seem to be a rule for

McCaw and one for the rest of the world. He benefits from referee's

doubt than any other open side. When McCaw takes the field is rarely the

referee. Do you think we're seeing an erosion of - you know, more

cynical or clever behaviour on the part of... Look, Ritchie McCaw is an

a great player and also a great man. People like David Pocock are great

players, great men, similar positions. Others are great players.

And a lot of the back row players are exactly the same. They play the

same way. They push the limits as much as they can, as any other back

row players or any other player in the world does, but because when you

are the best people seem to highlight it. I try to sum it up

like this: If you look at - when Man United were the greatest team in

football, probably in the world for a period of time, for that decade in

the English premiership, everybody was saying they were getting away

because they were Man United and because they were different, it's no

different. Ritchie McCaw plays the laws of the game no different to any

other open side. Do you see players on the field trying to pull the wool

over your eyes. Yeah, well, they push - they push the limit, they'll

try to push you off-side. Try to get as much as they can until you step

in and tell them, go back, or you deal them or penalise them. I don't

go out to referee big names or characters. I go out to referee the

game of rugby. I referee two teams and 30 players. That all my job is

to referee every single one the same. That's what we do as referees.

And even else will have a different opinions. People of course as a

referee you reference what's in front of you and everybody gets

treated the same. But talking about perhaps how the game has changed, I

mean, looking at this - the World Cup, the high number of injuries

really does illustrate to many just how dangerous this sport, rugby is,

and, you know, people are saying that as partly due to the fact we're

seeing increase in the weight, speed and strength of the players and this

is having a profound effect on injuries - two players collide is

almost like seeing a car crash. There's no doubt the players got

biggers, harder, stronger, faster, there's no doubt about that. The

game has changed. The game has evolved and faster now, there's

bigger hits than there's ever been. You referee a game sometimes you see

a tackle go in, you think - how the hell did that - that guy bet back

off the floor, the impact of it? What rugby is doing and trying to do

is trying it's best to make a game, a physical contact game where there

are going to be injuries, as safe as it possible can. Unless you change

rugby beyond total recognition of the wonderful and unique game it is,

then you are - you are going to have injuries unfortunately. Some of

those injuries unfortunately are more serious than others. All rugby

can do is make the game as safe as possible it can for everybody to

enjoy the game. U think everybody who plays or who is involved in

rugby will accept there's an element of risk you are going to get

injured. Where do you draw the line. The former international Ireland

player he said 10-15 years ago to see a guy stretchered off in a match

is a big issues. I don't think that is sustainable. Within the game

itself there are voices saying perhaps this isn't right. Well, what

you need to do is try to make it as safe as possibly can. Should you

change the rules? Well I'm not sure you can change the rules of the

game. I'm not sure what more you can change. It's the naicht - the

persons have become bigger and stronger so the tackle... I mean,

tackle lower? It could well be. If you brought in a law. Down on the

legs. If you brought in the law to - you must tack from the waist down. I

don't know, this is something - look, world rugby and all the

governing bodies in rugby, they put player safety as a priority and

quite rightly so. They will do everything they can do make the game

as safe as it possible can. If you think we're going to get a game

where there's not going to be injuries. It's not going to happen.

All we need to do is try to make it as safe as we possible can. We have

to remember that's the type of game rugby is. That's the type of game

rugby is and size matters so much. I want to talk to you... I'm not sure

if size does matter. I was going to give you a point on this particular

aspect where we're talking about doping which is of course a huge

story at present in sport. And you know, Nicola Sapstead the chief, has

told the culture media of sport in September that the sport she

considered most at risk of doping was rugby union and you hear some

cases about the pressure on young guys desperate to put on weight

because they say they're not big enough. The message is if you're not

big or strong enough you're not going to make it in rugby, that's

what perhaps encourages the youngsters to turn to rugby. The

games I have involved in, not just at the professional end, but other

end of the game as well, pretty much all those games there'll be somebody

there from the anti-doping establishment testing players. You

know, I'd be very surprised if people are playing in the top end of

rugby who are - who are taking steroids or abusing steroids or

cheating the game. We're talking about the pressures to perform. A

lot of you were disappointed how England performed in the World Cup.

Do you think they can come back from their rather humiliating defeat? I'm

sure they can. They're very proud rugby nation. You know, the strength

and depth that England have, you know, they will - every, you know,

Wales, we were disappointed in 2007. We lost to Fiji in the last round of

the knockout and we were knocked out before the qualifying round as we.

They regrouped and came back better and stronger and went to the

semifinal in 2011 in New Zealand and were very unlucky not to go on and

win and go to the time. I'm sure... Live another day. What do you make

then of Stuart Lancaster who left his post as head coach of England by

mutual consent, what was your response to that? I can only speak

from what I know of Stuart. I don't know him personally well, but I have

come across him quite a few times, and I don't know - I'm not - I have

no idea of the skills and the requirements of what the coach needs

or what the coach - what his make-up is or anything. All I see them as is

as a human being, from the only occasion I met him, he was a great

man and a very descent man as well. From the experience I had with him.

You know, obviously he's come to mutual agreement with the governing

body, and they decided that's what's best for him and best for England.

And the next World Cup, Rugby World Cup is 2019. You're 44 years of age,

you got to be pretty fit running up and down that pitch. Are you going

to be fit enough in 2019 to be a referee in that? I certainly hope

so. That's my aim. I think I'm fit as I have ever been. As long as I'm

physically fit and meantly fit and my legs can get me around the field

and as long as I'm refereeing well, that's the main thing as well, well,

yeah, my intention now is to go on to 2019, and I will think at 4 years

of age probably the end of that season would be time then to hang up

the whistle then I think the most enjoyable part of my life an being

involved in this great game. Small part of it but a part of it. I hope

you enjoy putting your feet up after 2019. Nigel Owens thank you very

much indeed for coming on HARDtalk. It's been a pleasure. Thank you.

We are awaiting the first significant storm of the season.

This is a named storm - the Met Office have named the storm Abigail.

You can see that showing up nicely on the Atlantic pressure chart.