Julius Malema, Commander-in-Chief, Economic Freedom Fighters, South Africa HARDtalk

Now it's time for HARDtalk with Julius Malema, a controversial

figure and leader of South Africa's Economic Freedom Fighters.

Hello and welcome to HARDtalk. I'm Zeinab Badawi.

He is one of the most colourful and controversial politicians

To his supporters he is a populist who understands their needs and is

To his critics he is a demagogue who makes inflammatory

statements against corruption whilst personally enriching himself.

My guest today is Julius Malema the leader of the

which came out of nowhere to win more than 6% of the vote

they've made their mark in South African politics.

But is the EFF anything more than a protest party?

Julius Malema, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you. Are the Economic Freedom

Fighters anything more than a protest party making eye-catching

statements but not amounting to very much? It is a government in waiting,

an alternative to the ruling party in South Africa, the fastest-growing

country -- party in the country. In less than a year, it it got 25

members in Parliament and is represented in all provincial

parliaments in the Republic of South Africa with a clear manifesto, a

clear election manifesto, and alternative policies on how the

problems of South Africa can be resolved. You had 1 million votes in

the last election. Do you really believe you can prevent -- present a

credible alternative to the ANC, the party of the late Nelson Mandela?

Absolutely. This is a political party. It can be defeated. The ANC

is self-destructing. The ANC has become like a pig, eating its own

children. The party elite provides for itself and does not distribute

the wealth of the country. And it does not resolve the inequalities,

unemployment and poverty confronting the majority of our people. Is it

necessary for you to make these criticisms of the ANC to also

discredit Nelson Mandela, when he is obviously in no position to defend

himself against some of the comments you have made about him recently?

You said Nelson Mandela, after his release from prison, he stayed in a

white man's house, a club of white men told him that what he

represented would not be achieved. That is when he turned against

himself. You said he was too old and too tired. He took the revolution as

far as he could but he could not do more. What do you mean by that? That

is the reality. He went to stay with... It is not disputing that

after he separated from Winnie Mandela. And he attended separate

meetings with the white elite group that owned the South African

economy. And he was doing their bidding, is what you are implying.

No, he then compromised what he represented. The Mandela that you

celebrate now is not the Mandela before prison. It is a Mandela who

was co-opted into a white, liberal agenda and towed the line. He was

told nationalisation would not work and some of his policies must be

abandoned. You are saying that Mandela was eight sellout? I'm not

saying that. You are not saying he is a sellout? I'm saying he fought

off two here and we have to take it from where he left it. You said that

the Nelson that we celebrate now is a stage-managed Mandela who

compromise the principles of the revolution captured in the freedom

charter. Absolutely. Any deviation from that is a sellout position. The

ANC sold out because they left their freedom charter. And Nelson Mandela

was a sellout is I have to contextualise this because it is not

about individuals so much as the collective leadership of the ANC

that led us to compromise during negotiations in 1994. More than

Nelson Mandela, it is the collective leadership of the ANC that abandoned

the freedom charter. And the freedom charter was formed on the basis of

the Constitution in 1994. It was accepted in... There you are, saying

that you represent the spirit of the revolution that ended apartheid and

so on. Let us take on a sample. The recent student protest against the

increase in tuition fees. Were worthy Economic Freedom Fighters?

This was a grassroots and organic student movement. This would have

been a really totemic issue for the Economic Freedom Fighters to have

picked up and said, OK, students, we will start mobilising all of you to

get this increase abandoned by the government. The students did it

themselves. The Economic Freedom Fighters was there. Afterwards. No.

Look at the pictures from when it started. There was a man there, the

Economic Freedom Fighters leader. And the ANC Youth League leader.

Both of these inspired the leadership of the EFF. We did not

have to be there ourselves. One of the leaders of the student protest

tweeted in October that you will hear the EFF say they had been

fighting before the hashtag fees must fall started. That is news to

me. Who did run with the issue but my point is that you did that after

the students had begun it themselves. -- you did. You jumped

on the bandwagon. No, I'm a authority on this subject. The EFF

student, and. You can Google them. The EFF did not come later. We did

not want to get involved because we knew that students have already got

capable leadership, so we did not have to hijack it. The students did

very well. If you go into a video when the students went to the ANC

headquarters, the ANC Secretary General, the guy who tells him to

sit down on the floor, he is the chairperson of the EFF student

command, so we have been there. I made the point that it started as a

grassroots movement. But are you not just hitting the headlines for being

disruptive as a protest voice? Looking at what happened in

Parliament earlier this year when Jacob Zuma was making the State of

the Union address and all of those scuffles that we saw. One of our

correspondent said he saw one EFF MP trying to swing a punch at security

officials. Is that conduct becoming of a party that you have just said

is an alternative to the ANC in government? We will not allow a

situation where security bounces just walk into the assembly and it

is up when we don't do anything. We are not going to allow that. Week

stood up peacefully. As for Jacob Zuma, when is he going to repay the

money of our people? He did not steal the money of people. You are

referring to the controversy about the upgrades to the home of Jacob

Zuma in his home province. And the Public protector said that the

president had benefited unduly. I would pick up the point that you

said he had stolen money. If you want to call it benefited unduly,

that is you being polite. I'm being brutally honest. He stole the money.

I said that in Parliament and they chased me out. I went to court and

the court said there was nothing wrong with what I had said. I'm not

talking about the public protector... She was critical about

the whole thing. I'm just saying that... I'm accusing him of doing

exactly that. Jacob Zuma stole the money. I'm accusing him. Well, I'm

saying that he denies it and the public investigation... He has a

right to deny that. I have a right to accuse him. You are not going to

take that right away from me. Whatever the rights and wrongs, what

about the scuffles in Parliament? When we said to him, when are you

going to repay the money that you stole from government through the

building of your house they did not want him to answer that question. He

has been avoiding that question. We firmly put that point on the table

and today we have a situation where, actually, the unnecessary spending

of money has stopped because of the EFF. The money was increasing,

escalating year after year. Since the arrival of the EFF in

Parliament, the amount of money they are spending in Jacob Zuma's house

has effectively stopped. In 2008 when you were a member of the ANC,

which had been since you were a child, and you were the leader of

the ANC Youth League from 2008 to 2012, you said we were prepared to

die for Jacob Zuma, you were prepared to take up arms and killed

him, and yet here you are as one of his harshest critics. -- kill for

him. That statement was not to be meant literally. It was expressed as

a metaphor. I'm not saying that you were literally going to kill... I'm

just saying... We were prepared to make him president of the country

because at the time we were convinced that his predecessor

wanted to go for a third time and that would undermine the

Constitution of the Republic of South Africa. My question was not to

take what you said literally but to point out that you have gone from

being one of his strongest defenders to one of his fiercest critics. It

is strange, isn't it? It is not strange. I raised that with him. But

this is not when we -- what we voted for, him in reaching himself and his

family. We were not going to allow that. -- enriching. You say that you

are the voice of the dispossession and disenfranchised. You wear your

distinctive red beret is. Are your policies as distinct as your

policies? What do you bring to the table? Rationalisation of minds,

banks and monopoly industries. Quality and free education and

healthcare. Proper and spacious houses for our people. The creation

of jobs. These are the core principles of the EFF. There is no

party in Parliament or in the Republic of South Africa that speaks

about those issues. We are the only ones who want the workers on the

ground benefit from the wealth, the minerals and the natural resources,

of South Africa. We know about your recent march to the Johannesburg

stock exchange when you said you wanted 51% of companies to be owned

by the workers, where is the money going to come from for that, or will

you do it without compensation? Absolutely. What we need to do is

companies must just surrender 51%. Just like that? No compensation?

They have exploited the wealth of this country for much too long. Just

do it? It is time that the people benefited. People don't have money

to buy those shares and they will never have the money to buy those

shares. And the same for land? We know that many people agree that the

fact that 85% of the land in South Africa is only owned by 10% of the

population is something that should be addressed. The ANC has already

signalled it will be trying to introduce reforms to make sure, for

example, that any individual South Africa cannot own more than 12,000

hectares of land. It will distribute more than 90,000 hectares of land to

smallholders and so forth. On that issue, the government is trying to

do something. You cannot pretend that for the past 25 years may have

the power they could not have done anything they wanted. Until today,

they have not done anything. The figures you are referring to happen

during colonial times and they are still happening today because the

ANC did not want to tamper with the economic structure and the patterns

of property ownership in Africa. They are not doing anything

on it. Daniel Silke says these demands, the ones who have been

talking about, that corporations, mining companies, land and so on,

they represent a wish list from the EFF. The question is how disruptive

they are willing to become if the demands are not that. Are you

suggesting you would do this by force? We are going to engage in a

very persuasive and peaceful engagement with capital. We have

already done that. We are meeting captains of the industry. Some are

beginning to respond to our memorandum. Some say that these

proposals... Civil disobedience? Would you use civil disobedience?

Not until our people are pushed to the limit. But I'm saying that they

are prepared to give shares to the black elite who are politically

connected and if you are prepared to give to one individual, why not give

it to the workers themselves who are making this company into what it

is? And the companies are beginning to say that it looks like this will

work in their favour. The ANC says that more needs to be done to help

the 85% of black people in South Africa who are at the bottom. Jacob

Zuma has said that it will take a while to undo decades and decades of

policies under apartheid. He has been applauded for the national

economic plan, which is trying to address some of those issues full of

a proper economic blueprint to improve the lot of people. We have

seen extra housing, water, sanitation.

You can say the economic policy makes the economy grow but it

doesn't create jobs for people who deserve to be celebrated. The result

is that inequality has grown in South Africa. It has become more

rich over poor and those divisions, unfortunately, they happen a long

richer lines. The Rich Beem white and the poor being black -- being.

There is no one today who can come with a coherent argument that indeed

inequality has been resolved in South Africa. I didn't say that. I

think we are one of the highest unequal societies in the world. But

it is the progress? Progress until we die. This OECD report talks about

South Africa reducing absolute poverty, ruling a pensions, care for

disabled children, water, housing, electricity and well-being enhancing

substantially. That is not the only intervention, giving people social

grants, that cannot be celebrated. It is not long-term, we don't want

to create a welfare state, we want to create a state where people work

for a living and own their own economy and the means of

production. Let's look at how you are doing in the country, because

you said you were gaining support and so on but let me just give you

one example, the economic hub that includes Johannesburg, if you look

at the elections last year, you got eight seats there and if you look at

The Democratic Alliance under its new leader who is very charismatic,

he won 23 seats, he is a local boy. They are eating your lunch there.

Let's correct the facts. You are trying to create the impression that

my money produces numbers, I will still be tested next year in the

open elections. But on the basis of how he did... It is premature, he

doesn't deserve those accolades. We have gone into the Soweto area where

my money comes from, with ADA won once in local elections. They lost

in 2014. The people who have been voting for the DAR those who have

been looking for an alternative and they didn't find it, they had to

settle. But in the last election, we saw the DA's vote go up to 22% last

year. So it is increasing. And now the fastest increase in membership

in the parties amongst black South Africans. It is undisputed that the

party will look forward to growing in South Africa. In 2014, the EFF

was new and did not have resources. It went into the election with zero

parlance inside the bank and yet it managed. And imagine EFF with a

little bit of resources. The DA is no competition. Until 2012, you were

part of the ANC elite, you could say. You were part of that

architecture. Someone might say, why should we accept what Julius Malema

says? He has also been the subject of controversy with the expensive

house you bought in the most expensive part of South Africa, and

also the issues over tax and whether you may tax returns which reflected

what you actually had and so on. People might say you are just the

same as them. No, on principle issues and the issues I am raising

now, I raise them even when I was in the ANC. Those who have followed my

politics would never say, he only follows that principle because he is

outside the ANC stuck white but you are a member of the elite yourself

is the point I am making? Do you except you are a member of the

Legion that maintain to? I am a Member of Parliament -- taint you?

You make 1400 US dollars per month. I do not make as little as those on

the lowest income. I was not saying you should do that, but as the

leader of a party that professes to stand up for the rights of the

dispossessed and the poor, should you be buying a house in the richest

part of Johannesburg? Should you also have a Mercedes car? Andrew on

point engineering -- and through on point engineering, where you were

accused of unduly benefiting to the tune of a few 100 thousand dollars?

You are subject to the same criticisms that you are making about

the elite. All I am saying is that what I am fighting for is not the

same. The state intervention into the living conditions of our people

present opportunities to all and the outcomes should be almost the same.

Let people choose where they want to stay. There must not be a deliberate

economic desire to exclude certain people and make them stay in the

camps. I want to live where I want to live, in a rich place or not. But

is it a good symbol? It doesn't undermine what I represent to. I

represent the ability of black people to emerge out of a difficult

past and be able to settle wherever they want to settle. And it must be

a matter of choice. It must not be that this is the exclusive area for

the white elite, it is incorrect. And those things you are pointing

at, they were all before the court of law, and none of those things

have stood the test of time. They have all failed. Those who accuse me

knew the case against me was concocted. They conspired to

discredit me. But the national prosecuting Authority spokesman

said, this was not an acquittal, the matter was struck off the roll, the

Department of Public prosecutions can be approached to reinstate the

matter, he said that an August 2015. Are you worried? I am not worried, I

am a free man. You must replay what the judge said to me when you drop

the charges, he said to me Julius Malema, you are a free man and I am

a free man up until they bring new charges against me, I am a free man

fighting for the people of South Africa, the black majority and

Africans in particular to tell me where they want to live, to go to

school where they want and to participate effectively in the

economy of South Africa. Do I still have a political conscience and off

to fight for the port of the poorest? My political conscience is

clear. I am fighting for the poor. I'm not fighting for me, I am

fighting for those people and I am not pretentious when I say that, I'm

doing it legitimately and generally. Briefly and finally, the

poorest of the port include many young South Africans, 25-40% of the

figure for the unemployed. This should be your natural

constituencies but these youngsters don't vote. We are engaged in a

programme to mobilize young people to register in their numbers. The

EFF is the only party that is focused on fighting youth apathy

when it comes to politics. We brought excitement, we brought the

necessary image to politics in South Africa and we are confident that

come next year, the majority of young people will register to vote

for the Economic Freedom Fighters. Julius Malema, thank you for coming

on HARDtalk. Thank you.