11/12/2015 HARDtalk

Welcome to this special edition of HARDtalk on the road from

My guess is here to receive the Nobel peace prize. He is one of four

recipients representing Tunisia's national dialogue Quartet, a group

of civil society organisations that did much to rescue Tunisia from

political chaos a couple of years ago. Now the hope is that Tunisia's

brand of inclusive politics could be a model for other Middle Eastern

states. But is that realistic? Ouided Bouchamaoui, welcome to

HARDtalk and many congratulations. I have to start by asking you how

much of a surprise it was when you heard that your movement

had won the Nobel Peace Prize? We were, all of us, in the quartet,

we are very proud because we did It is something

which was very exciting for us to have this news, because Tunisia is

a small country and an old country Do you see it as recognition

of the importance of Tunisia? It is recognition

because it is something that was A safe and soft revolution

and we succeeded For us, we are proud to be Tunisians

and we are proud to have succeeded Let's go back to the story of this

national dialogue quartet because it really came about in the summer

of 2013 when Tunisia was facing You had a government which was

dominated by the Ennahda, the Islamist party, there were protests

on the street and a lot of unrest and political assassinations, did

you feel, at that time, that Tunisia was getting very close to civil

strife or maybe even civil war? If I may be frank speaking with you,

yes. Yes, because there was confusion,

people were shocked. We are not used to terrorism

or assassination in Tunisia. We are an open country

and we are tolerant people. So when the second assassination

happened in Tunisia, We had just reached the disaster

in Tunisia. For this reason, we met together to

avoid this disaster, And when you say we met together

and decided to do something about it, you are talking about you

representing the business, the industrial federation, we're talking

about the trade union movement, we are talking about the lawyers

and human rights activists? Yes. There are many different interests

there, so how did you all come It was in 2012 when we had many

strikes, many sit-ins in Tunisia. We said we had to be

together to deal with it. After the second assassination,

we said we had to find You know,

we're the fourth oldest organisation The point I am making is,

Hussein Abassi, the head of the Trade Union Federation, and you,

the head of the bosses federation, You would be negotiating

about wages, conditions, and often Not now, but you had many disputes

with the trade union in your time. We are together because I got this

idea to call on him and I invited him with his board member to come to

our head office and it was strange for everybody but we began

and we observed many problems. But now,

if there is a difference between us, No, we cannot have companies without

workers and we cannot have workers without bosses,

so if we need to export or invest or But of course, I mean, we can't

agree on all things, but... When we trust people, we can do it,

yes. What fascinates me is

because you came together, the workers, the employers,

the lawyers and human rights people, you all came together and decided

to intervene in politics. The government had a mandate but you

went to the leadership, including the Prime Minister Laarayedh, and

you said to him, Mr Prime Minister, You are going to have to allow

an interim government to take over and negotiate with us

on a transition to a new politics Because when we fixed our roadmap,

we got the political parties with Together we decided to find

the right way for Tunisia. We listened to the opposition,

we listened to the people who had the power, and we did this

in conference with them because we, as a civil society organisation,

we don't have the legitimacy to say It was an extraordinary thing

because, for all of your influence in Tunisia, because you represent

the businesses and the employers and the same with the trade unions

and the lawyers, you didn't have a democratic mandate, but you felt

you had a duty to intervene. We are a very old organisation

and we did a lot for our country. We got the support of parties

and the support of media. We got the support of civil

societies, the other civil society organizations and the support

of Tunisian women and together... At the very same time that you

were making your intervention... They had chaos in Egypt and the Army

intervened in what many people called a coup d'etat to take power

away from the Muslim Brotherhood and I wonder if you believe there can

ever be a marriage between political Islam and genuine democracy

and freedom? Do you think For me,

we have to separate between them. Islam is a tolerant religion,

what we see now, even the terrorism and extremism

everywhere, that is not Islam. We are aghast at all

of this extremism. Do you call any party that calls

for Sharia law, for example, to be the law of the state,

do you call that extremism? For us as Tunisians,

we are safe because our Constitution is too clear and we cannot apply

Sharia in Tunisia. We respect Islam, the religion

of Tunisia is Islam, but we are I think during the negotiations

of the Constitution, Ennahda, for example,

wanted to make it quite clear that Islam was the driving force for

the law in Tunisia and you said no? Looking at the region, not just

Tunisia, about the role of Islam in Are you saying to me that you don't

believe that the Muslim Brotherhood, for example, can ever be

a genuinely democratic movement? Because

if we are not open-minded and don't listen to each other, if we want to

force people to practise something that we don't like, we cannot

assume, so it will be difficult. For me,

I am proud to be Muslim but we can Now, in this century,

we are more open. We have to be more democratic than

the other way because, they use, let's call it to the rogue way

of Islam, not the good Islam. It is very interesting because

in your national dialogue quartet receiving this enormous recognition

of the Nobel Peace Prize, one of your members, the leader

of the Lawyers Association, Mohamed Mahfoud,

said after winning the prize, the lesson here is that everything

can be solved by dialogue. It seems to me that not everything

can be solved by dialogue, because you still have deep

polarization in Tunisia. You have Islamists,

some would say you have extremists and jihadists, and your form

of dialogue will never reach them. There are not so many

of those people, the extremists. The majority of Tunisia is not

like this, and when we succeed with the social dialogue

and political dialogue, we continue to find solutions for extremism

and terrorism, so I agree with him. The question is then if dialogue

doesn't work with the real extremists, and we have seen in

Tunisia in the last few months, in the last year, we have seen terrible

terror attacks of the Bardo Museum, the gunman on the beach at Sousse,

in the last couple of weeks we have seen this suicide

bombing of presidential guards. How do you believe that Tunisia can

control and defeat First,

it doesn't happen just in Tunisia. We saw attacks in Paris, in the

United States, in Mali, everywhere. It is international

and everyone has to fight it. Second, Tunisia is not

responsible for this. We are suffering

from this terrorism, but we are not responsible, because what is

happening in Libya, the situation And the community in Tunisia

should do something for this. For us, even when we had the two

assassinations, or the attacks in the Bardo Museum or in Sousse,

we have to continue to do this. I hear what you say about this being

a product of regional instability, It is said 4,000 Tunisian fighters

are now with Daesh, Another 1,500 Tunisian

jihadists are in Libya. Tunisia does have

its own extremist problem. I wonder

whether you would accept that that's partly because there is deep

economic inequality in Tunisia... I've been to Tunisia and the town

of Sidi Bouzid, I've talked to young people and they

say there's no chance of a job. The Tunisian elite does

not listen to us. And you're a member

of the Tunisian elite. Tunisians said together

in one voice, we want dignity, we want jobs

and we want freedom. We have freedom in Tunisia, but we

cannot get the dignity without jobs. I say we are not responsible because

those people are training in Libya but where does

their anger come from? for a chance to get a job

and they are still waiting. We didn't do for them

and we didn't realise their dream, Because first of all we have big

problems economically in Tunisia. We have 54% of our economy coming

from the former economy, Because there's no state in Libya,

no institution in Libya, so goods, arms and everything can

enter in Tunisia in the wrong way. Of course, when we don't have

a big capacity financially, For this I said we need

the support of the international community to help us to ensure

security and for investment. With respect,

you do have support from the IMF, support on security issues

from the Europeans. Not so much.

Not concrete actions. Not so much.

Really? Because we are not responsible

for what has happened in Libya. But some people would say all of

your answers avoid one key issue. I mean,

you are from an elite family, You have to accept that there is

endemic corruption in your country. The economic elite is accused

by the World Bank amongst others "The regulatory system that allowed

Ben Ali's corruption "It perpetuates the

social exclusion, "it generates deep

social injustice". Why is that World Bank report

being written in 2014? Because we are still

in a transition period. We got our democratic transition,

but now we don't have We are now waiting to do some

reforms, to invest more, So, even the corruption I think

if we succeed on this, With respect, it is as bad today

as it was under Ben Ali. transparency International actually

has Tunisia dropping down the index of countries that are

perceived to be corrupt. Because, as I said,

we are in a transitional period. And now we are building

together all the institutions. When we have freedom,

we will have better governance, better transparency

and freedom in the media. but we cannot find a solution now

for all our past problems. Because these young people in

the rural areas, the country areas, the poorest of the poor,

they are still very angry. they are angry because

they don't have jobs. They are angry about both things,

surely. They are pretty angry

when they see the elite doing so well in Tunis and their

own villages are stuck in poverty. Even for our government, our state,

now the government focused all of its efforts to the security

problems. We don't invest more in those areas

and really it's a big problem. For this we say that we need to get

an economic dialogue together, To have a social climate in Tunisia

and an investment climate. Talking of the investment climate,

how damaging were the attacks How damaging have they been

on Tunisia's ability to attract Now we are suffering,

some areas are suffering. Not tourism, hotels also,

but even all other areas, But what we can say to all people, I

mean, terrorism is everywhere. We are doing our best

to find a solution. Let me ask you

about Tunisia's role in the region. You were the birthplace of

the uprisings in a sense, in 2011. Do you believe that this recognition

with the Nobel Peace Prize carries with it some sort of

message for neighbouring states Do you think things can be

learnt from your civil society I don't know, I can't say it

will give lessons to others. But it will be a good experience

and we can learn from these experiences, because we succeeded

because we listened to each other. One lesson involves

gender politics as well. Here you sit with me,

the head of Tunisia's business I have heard that you were even

asked if he would like to be Twice.

Twice? What did you say when they asked

you? Once when we were in dialogue,

because there was confusion and we didn't find a solution

and we didn't find a candidate. So most of them asked me to be

Prime Minister. The second when we elected

our president. He called me and said he was elected

by 1 million Tunisian women. So I suggest that you be

the Prime Minister. You could speak for all Tunisian

women. And it would have been a heck

of an opportunity. First, I said to him that I cannot

be the boss because I have to choose ministers

between four parties. Second, I have the covenants

of my colleagues. So, to be in this organisation,

to defy the interest of the companies and the private sector and

I think it's too early for me To put it bluntly,

do you think Tunisia, maybe this is a question for the

wider Arab world as well, do you think your country is ready

to be led by a woman? And to be really accepting of gender

equality at all levels? We have all the rights

and all the duties. In Tunisia we had the first

doctor in the Arab world I mean, so, the first president of

the confederation. So, we are already the first

ones to accept. But I am delighted to say that you

will also have to accept Congratulations one more time,

Ouided Bouchamaoui, and thank you