Maj Gen Mansour Al-Turki HARDtalk


Maj Gen Mansour Al-Turki

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You're up to date with the latest headlines on BBC News.

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And now in a change to our scheduled programming,

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Welcome to a special edition of HARDtalk from Riyadh Saudi Arabia

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with me Stephen Sackur. These are deeply troubling times in this

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oil-rich kingdom. Saudi Arabia is locked in a confrontation with Iran

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that is playing out in Syria and Yemen. The oil price has crashed and

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his country's human rights record is widely condemned -- this. My guest

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today is the spokesman for the Saudi Interior Ministry, General Mansour

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Al-Turki. Is the house of Saud in need of major repair? General

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Mansour Al-Turki, welcome to HARDtalk. You are welcome and thank

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you for having me. Can you remember a time of greater uncertainty than

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there is right now? When you have got a plummeting oil price which is

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fundamentally affecting the revenues that are coming into your

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government, to your country, you have also got a hugely turbulent

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region and your country is involved in some of the conflict in this

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region. And you have got strained alliances, most particularly with

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your greatest supporter and friend, the United States of America. If you

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put all of those together, it is something of a perfect storm that

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facing your country today. Well, actually I think we are used to

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dealing with hard situations. The most important thing he is how we

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are unified and how we are willing to defend our country and to defend

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our values and beliefs. And when it comes to the economy, I think this

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is something the government is dealing with and I do not actually

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have much in particular to talk about regarding the economy, I am a

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security person. I am very much concerned actually with the

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situation that we are dealing with, not just in Saudi Arabia, but the

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region in general, specifically inflaming sectarian hatred and the

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splitting amount era people all around the region -- splitting of

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Arab people. I wanted to talk to you about that today, particularly the

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sectarian divide. Saudi Arabia is absolutely a part of this issue in

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the region you, obviously are a Sunni government, a Wahhabi Sunni

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government and people and you are a key regional player facing and

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confronting what you insist is a fundamental threat from Shia Iran.

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Why have you chosen the path of confrontation? We have been

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specifically in Saudi Arabia, you have mentioned that the majority

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here are Sunni, but we also have other citizens who follow the Shia

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Islam. 10-15% of your population is Shia. That's true. And yet you look

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at the treatment of your Shia population and every independent

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international human rights group says that the Shia people of this

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country are oppressed and repressed by your government. That has no

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basis. Such accusations have no basis. In the kingdom all people are

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treated equal, all people enjoy the same rights, but we have to remember

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that Saudi Arabia is a country based on Islam and it has 2 million

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mosques and therefore, actually, we have two -- two really make sure

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that everyone actually follows the right Islamic laws. And in reality,

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the real problem we're facing is coming from outside, not the inside

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of Saudi Arabia. If you don't face the problem inside, why did you

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choose to execute 47 people at the beginning of this year, including

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one of the Shia community's most respected clerics? That was the

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court sentence. It had to be carried out. The fundamental question is, is

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it, in your view, a crime punishable by death to call for an end to the

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rule of the Saud family? That's not the story. What you are saying

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actually is not what we deal with on the real situation, on the real

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ground. What is happening, actually, he was leading a terrorist cell and

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he was no different from the others, actually who were related to

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ISIL or Al-Qaeda. Do you regret the reputational damage that was done by

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those executions and particularly his? The United States, for example,

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released a statement saying it was" Gravely concerned about the

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execution which risked exacerbating sectarian tensions at a time when

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they are urgently in need of reduction". In this country we have

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faced terrorism a lot, and we have suffered from terrorism. And he was

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responsible for a series of terrorist related crimes that

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resulted in the death and injury of hundreds of people. Were you

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surprised by the reaction from the international community? And of

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course, also from Iran? Because afterwards we saw one of your

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diplomatic buildings attacked inside Iran and it led to a new low and

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heightened tension in the relationship between you and

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Tehran? Iran was actually trying to use the incident, or to use the

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execution for inflaming more sectarian hatred. But your

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government must've known that would happen? Well, our government is not

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going into this, especially when it comes to court sentences of whether

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it will irritate Iran or not. The law is the law. The law is going to

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be executed. We will have to comply with the law. Here's what a

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diplomatic source who doesn't want to be named said to me. He said it

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was clear what the Saudi 's were doing. They are under enormous

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pressure right now, economic pressure in particular and they're

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concerned about the long-term impact of falling oil prices. It could

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cause real problems at home so they have chosen to ratchet up the

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nationalist furore with this execution and with the war in Yemen

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Mac against the Houthis. This is from those who link us to terrorism

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and insist that we are part of the terrorist problem in the world and

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sometimes, people accuse us even of being behind ISIL, for example.

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Well, we will talk about that in a minute. There is a problem of how

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others actually are viewing Saudi Arabia. There is a perception, you

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have a major perception problem. It is a major problem but it is not our

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problem stop quite the thing is, you have to decide how you handle it.

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Does it make sense for King Salman and his government when you know you

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have a perception problem to conduct a massive bombing operation in Yemen

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which is killing hundreds and hundreds of civilians? Is that

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sensible? Well, actually, let's be clear about this. This has inflamed

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hatred and it is all over. Your government is behind it. There are

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the countries who are sponsoring terrorism. They are using terrorism

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to inflame the sectarian hatred. They are crying that it is best to

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actually redraw the map of the Middle East based on the sectarian

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basis. Our country is unified from different people all over the

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country of Saudi Arabia. From the North, South, East and West. We've

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are unified in the kingdom of Saudi Arabia and we will not allow anybody

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to endanger that. In the end, this is about the mindset, the culture

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and indeed, the religious orthodoxy of this country. This country is

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ruled by a Wahhabi Islamic principle and the Wahhabi principle is that

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the Shia are not true Muslims. Looks, there is no such Wahhabi

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principle. Have you looked at the school textbooks here? I came out of

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this school system come of this education system in this country.

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They basically indicate that Saudis who are not Sunni are not full, true

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Saudis. Let me tell you that when we talk about why this am, as you call

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it -- Wahhabism, it is a peaceful movement that did not promote any

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type of terrorism. It has been there for more than two centuries and it

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never produced any kind of terrorism. It only helped with

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producing this country, which actually provided these people with

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prosperity and a better future. Let's move onto another case. Raif

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Badawi. People around the world will remove her that he was the blogger

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who was very active in talking about politics in this country, he had

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strong views and put them on the Internet. He was arrested. He was

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convicted. He was sentenced to 1000 lashings, which by any norm, would

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be a sentence pretty close to death. Now, is that the kind of

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message you want to send to the world? Look, the message we want to

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send to the world is that there are laws in Saudi Arabia. And all the

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laws in Saudi Arabia are based on the religion of Islam. And people in

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Saudi Arabia have to comply with the laws before anybody else. Foreigners

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come in from outside and don't understand that the laws, I could

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excuse that. But I cannot excuse any Saudi who has been living here, who

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was born here, because he knows the laws. He knows that these laws are

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based on the religion. He knows that this is the choice of the majority

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of the people in Saudi Arabia. So being flogged with 1000 lashes seems

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to you the right and proper response to a man who has political opinions

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which don't please the government? I cannot comment on court decisions.

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Once the court has sentenced somebody for flogging, then that is

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the sentence. It is not me who did that sentence. But anyway, there are

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also conditions. When you want to carry out lashings, for example,

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there are conditions. The UN Commissioner for Human Rights says

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that blogging is, in my view, a form of cruel and unusual punishment.

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Such punishment is prohibited under international human rights law.

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Well, OK. Flogging is part of punishment in Islam. You keep coming

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back to telling me that this is mandated by Islam. This is the

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problem. When you look at Saudi Arabia, when you want to evaluate

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Saudi Arabia and what is going on here, you have to understand Islam.

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I am saying this because you are telling me that the international

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community says this or that. Unfortunately, anything that the

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international community or any position the international community

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takes which contradicts Islam is not considered in Saudi Arabia. Islam

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comes first. We come back to conversation we had earlier. A

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particular brand of Islam, this very, very hard-line Wahhabi Islam,

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which is in the end, driving the sort of punishment and sentences

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which we are talking about. Excuse me. You still insist on Wahhabi. I

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do, let me just quote you the words of one particular man who is the

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nephew of one of the bombers who last year killed more than 20 people

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in a bomb attack here in Saudi Arabia. He was and Islamic State

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militant and his uncle, afterwards said, you know what? My nephew went

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bad because hard-line preachers here in Saudi Arabia had planted the

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seeds of hate and violence in my nephew's headed. Euston to find an

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excuse. Saudi Arabia is made of more than 40 million Muslims -- he is

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trying. And actually have to add to those about 10 million from outside

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Saudi Arabia. Do you accept that there are people inside this

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country, senior clerics, who are preaching hatred and who are

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fostering an atmosphere in which some young Saudis are eager to join

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militant groups, including so-called Islamic State?

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This is criminalised in Saudi Arabia. When someone does this they

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will be subject to the law. Thanks to Wikileaks, Hillary Clinton in

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2010-2011, was saying Saudi Arabia was funding, very significantly

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funding Islamist militant networks around the world. That is still true

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today, isn't it? There is nobody, no country on earth, is doing actually

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as much as we do to control our finance, to control lets say the

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financial system in Saudi Arabia. We are doing more than we are supposed

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to do -- let's. People in Saudi Arabia are complaining that the

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government in Saudi Arabia is preventing them from fundraising,

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from collecting any charity, from doing any help with the country

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itself, actually. The government has taken responsibility of all of that.

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How seriously do you take the so-called Islamic State threat

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inside Saudi today? It is a threat. Just last year actually they

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committed almost 15 different terrorist crimes in the kingdom,

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which resulted in more than 65 deaths. Actually, we see ISIS as a

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front, which was made by those who sponsor terrorism to target Saudi

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Arabia. But thanks god they are failing, they are failing because we

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are very much fighting and we are doing our job and the security

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forces from protecting the country from conspiracy. Do you then except

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it was a mistake to fund Sunni Islamist terror networks overseas?

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There is blowback and you fear that blowback at home. We did not find

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any terrorist organisation. OK, in the early 2000s, or maybe in the

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last decade actually, there were misuse of our financial system. What

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do you mean by misuse? People misused it. (CROSSTALK). Tens of

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billions of dollars provided by the Saudis... Those were individuals,

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actually, who took advantage of the situation, convinced people,

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actually, to provide money, thinking that they were providing money for

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the poor, for the people in need. But unfortunately those people

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actually used those money to specifically finance Al-Qaeda in

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Afghanistan. But as soon as we have seen the situation, and we've got

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the proof that our money was being misused by these people, we have

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changed things actually. That is a very interesting statement. You are

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now acknowledging that significant, we can, frankly, frankly, tens of

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billions of dollars, over years, has been misused and has gone to fund

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and help Al-Qaeda. -- frankly. People took advantage of the

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situation. Usually, in any country, if people want to define charity, --

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provide charity, no one can say no. Usually people want to provide

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charity in order to help poor people, specifically poor

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Muslims... Generally, people don't provide charity to those who declare

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war on the West. Our financial system, actually, was misused, long

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before any terrorist organisation existed. I think this is why there

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is so much suspicion of Saudi Arabia today. In your greatest, most

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staunch ally and supporter, the United States, you are very reliant

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on military support from the US and all sorts of intelligence support.

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But this is what a very senior recently retired State Department

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official Daryl Benjamin says, a solid line of causation from the

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slaughter in Islamic State control the Iraq and Syria goes to the

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tragedy of 9/11 and it traces back directly to Saudi and

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evangelisation, by which he means evangelism, through Sunni networks,

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and the radical mosques and extremist NGOs that was born in that

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relationship. The Americans now see you as part of the problem. Whoever

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thinks we are part of a problem that means that they are not really

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looking deep into the real problem. It is very simple just to accuse

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Saudi Arabia off, you know, terrorist related activities or

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sponsoring, which is not true -- of. We are being threatened by this

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terrorism and we are targeted by this terrorism. And how we could in

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any way help the rise of such a terrorist organisation, when we know

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that these people will just target us, that is nonsense, actually.

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Saudi Arabia never sponsored any terrorist groups or financed any

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terrorist groups. A final thought. We began by talking about the

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difficult Situ and today, the turbulent region. Do you fear that

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even if you don't mean it to happen, the Saudi Arabian stamp in Yemen for

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example, or in Syria, is maybe, inadvertently, fuelling the fires of

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Islamist militancy extremism and terror? -- situation today. We will

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not stand still, looking at all of these dangerous situations around

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us, and seeing how people are playing around in the region, and

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not protecting our country. We agree that ISIL, Al-Qaeda, all of these

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terrorist groups, and of those, actually, who sponsor terrorists and

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their allies, are targeting us. And we are no exception in the region.

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And we are not immune in any way from the problems that is actually

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spreading in the region. So, we cannot just wait and watch these

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people doing all of this and do nothing. We have a responsibility to

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carry out... We have a unity that we have to defend. And, therefore,

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actually, the kingdom, actually, have developed all of the laws,

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actually, to carry out our responsibilities. What we want from

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the others, actually, not just to jump and accused Saudi Arabia

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because of somebody from Saudi Arabia did so, or because Saudi

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Arabia is an Islamic country. We are Islamic and we will always be is

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running. But this doesn't constitute any kind of threat to anybody -- we

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will always be Islamic. The reality we have to look at the real problem

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in the region and see, actually, why we would do so. I mean, look at the

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other countries who did nothing. Now, they cannot help themselves. I

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mean, look at the sectarian problem in Iraq, for example. Look at the

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situation in Syria, or even the situation in Yemen. We are not going

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to wait until we find out ourselves, actually, in the same position. And

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you feel that could happen if you don't act the way you have acted.

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You fear that this country could sink into sectarian warfare? If we

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do not protect the country, if we do not counter all this ideology, if we

:23:14.:23:18.

do not count all this terrorism, of course, we will. -- count a. The

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idea is to carry out our responsibility, have the

:23:27.:23:27.

responsibility to achieve, which is what we are doing. And in

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particular, let remind you of something, we are major players when

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it comes to the international community -- let me remind you. And

:23:39.:23:45.

countering terrorism. We are very active in the counter ISIL finance

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group. We have provided information that saved lives in other countries.

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So, we're not just carrying out our responsibilities inside the kingdom.

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Whenever we have something to do to help in the international community

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effort, we are not hesitating. We have to end it there. But General

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Mansour Al-Turki, thank you very much for being on HARDtalk. Thank

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you. You are welcome in Saudi Arabia.

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As I speak, Storm Henry is passing to the north of Scotland.

:24:43.:24:44.

The winds potentially remaining disruptive throughout the morning

:24:45.:24:46.

rush hour, the Met Office still has an amber wind be prepared warning in

:24:47.:24:50.

force for gusts of 60mph or 70mph, maybe 80mph, possibly a little more

:24:51.:24:54.

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