Kyriakos Mitsotakis - President of New Democracy, Greece HARDtalk


Kyriakos Mitsotakis - President of New Democracy, Greece

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David Cameron has said leaving the EU would be a "leap in the dark".

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Welcome to HARDtalk with me, Zeinab Badawi. We are in Brussels, where my

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guest has been holding informal talks with EU officials. Kyriakos

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Mitsotakis has just been elected leader of Greece's main opposition,

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New Democracy. New leaders are carrying out a review to see if

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Greece is complying with its tough bailout conditions. Does need New

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Democracy share some of the blame for the economic mess that Greece

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finds itself in? Kyriakos Mitsotakis, welcome to the

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programme. Thank you. When you were elected leader in January, is said

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to target was first to represent everyone in the country who opposes

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the populism of an incompetent government, referring to the

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government led by Alexis Tsipras. He is populist, or popular? Is popular

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and populist. Greece has suffered a lot from populism in this crisis.

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The problem with Alexis Tsipras is that he overpromised and under

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delivered. I don't know if it was because he didn't understand what he

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was saying, or he consciously decided to lie to the Greek people.

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The end result had to do with the fact that he was massively

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constrained by what he said before the elections, hence the tragic

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negotiating strategy which almost led us outside the eurozone. I won't

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repeat mistakes. His party has been in existence for only about three

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years, he made it the strongest party in Greece. It won two

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elections. It was very popular last year and similarly in September. A

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large part of his appeal is because he is seen as a breath of fresh air.

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He doesn't stand for the old, like your party? That is then interesting

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dilemma. I think he was successful in convincing the Greek people that

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he represented something new. My argument would be the opposite. He

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is the latest reincarnation of old politics. I would not be surprised

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that this comes from someone who represents a party that comes from

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the old regime. If you look at who has actually voted for Alexis

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Tsipras, those people who did not want anything to change in the

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country, the traditional voters. The former socialists? They moved over

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to support Alexis Tsipras. He came at a time when public opinion was

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still involved with populism. Now we have seen all incarnations of

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populism. You mentioned a client list of state, which is what Alexis

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Tsipras accused the opposition as being the promoters of clientalism

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-- clientalism. The new democracy government in 2009, 100,000 new jobs

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created in the civil service over five years. It was almost as though

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these jobs were seen as the spoils of government? That is certainly

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true. I have been very honest in addressing my party's shortcomings

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when it comes to using the state as a mechanism to promote our party

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agenda. To a certain extent, one of the reasons that Greece went

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bankrupt was to do with the parties adopting this attitude. But it is

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time for a clean break. I am being quite honest in terms of accepting

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our mistakes and I am absolutely committed not to repeat these

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mistakes. Do you think it is odd and surprising that you are accusing the

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answer is a party of clientalism, when you should be perhaps looking

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at digging out the clientalism that has been in your party? I was in a

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previous government for 18 months in 2013. I did my best to change these

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practices. I think I was relatively successful. I am accusing Alexis

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Tsipras of the same sense of clientalism because I have hard

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evidence. He supports his friends and family. You can do that as

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leader of the main opposition, but are you also carrying out an

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internal investigation into potential abuse by your own party in

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the past, even if you weren't in power? We have been very honest

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about our past and assuming responsibility for past tractors is.

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I think in terms of the political blame, this has already been... As

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an investigation? There is nothing illegal being done here. This was a

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political practice which was very common in Greece during the good old

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days, which is no longer tolerated by Greek public opinion. One of my

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priorities for the party is to move towards a new party Congress, which

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will take place in a few months. I have made it very clear that I want

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new faces in new people in the party. It is not easy, because the

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party has been associated with the past you describe. It is my job to

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make this party attractive to people who view politics with scepticism.

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The problem in Greece is attracting people to the public service. It is

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not happening because of the cynicism which exists. To a certain

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extent it is justified, but my job is to change that attitude. With all

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respect, old man, new face. Your father was a former New Democracy

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Prime Minister. Your shadow cabinet, the nephew of the former prime

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minister is also in your shadow cabinet. Old name, a new face? We

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have struggled with this. We are not the only country which has a

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tradition of political dynasty is. It happens in the US and other

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countries. I have struggled a lot with this issue since I first

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entered politics. People always told me that I must have an unfair

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advantage. The truth is that people are much more sceptical when they

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see someone coming from a political family. I feel that I had to work

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twice as hard to prove myself. I would give an opportunity to people

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who did not have the same advantage as I did. I have made it very clear

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that I will not tolerate a party which is functioning more on the

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basis of personal connections than meritocracy. We are where we are

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now, there was a Coalition government until Alexis Tsipras came

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to power in 2015. Under that previous government, tax reforms

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were one of the things that the creditors were demanding. In 2014

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when you are in the government as reform Minister, the head of

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Greece' tax collection agency resigned claiming he was under

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political pressure to go easy on sensitive targets. I contrast this

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with what the current government is doing. The Finance Minister said he

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is carrying out important work with Greek banks, and said your party

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would never have done that because it is like turkeys voting for

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Christmas? He is not right. There was a lot of work done to fight tax

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evasion under the previous government. At some point, we need

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to finish with this distinction that one party is by definition a more

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honest simply because they belong to the left or right. He was also

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accusing a centre-left of doing the same thing. Let me make a reference

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to the resignation. I think that was a mistake. I criticise my government

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at the time about the handling of this case. We need independent

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people managing critical positions. I am struggling to see whether you

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are going to be the person with the broom who is going to sweep out some

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of the mistakes that yourself have admitted were committed by the old

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guard within your own party? That is what people want to see,

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investigations, people who were in past governments and are associated

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with the bad old days. As I said, in my shadow cabinet, I primarily

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picked people who have not been associated with the past of New

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Democracy. I still consider the overall footprint of New Democracy

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to be positive, especially compared to others. We made mistakes... What

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will you do about those mistakes? Civil service, jobs in the past

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going to associate supporters? I can tell you that in terms of me being

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very vocal about mistakes that we have made, I have already done much

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more than any predecessor has ever done in terms of criticising our

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past. Without going as far as addressing issues which, in my mind,

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have been resolved politically, because at the end of the day we

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politicians and are judged on our electoral results. If there are just

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as issues that need to be investigated, that is of a different

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magnitude. Is it because you have to tread carefully? You have one member

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who stood against you for the membership, and you won by a narrow

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but comfortable margin? Is that why you feel you have to be careful? I

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want to be very clear. When I started my campaign for party

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leader, I was the outsider. I think nobody expected me to win because I

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was very honest and I said things as I thought they should be said.

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People said someone who speaks the truth in Greece and is not a

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populist has no chance of being elected. I proved them wrong. There

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is a clear desire in Greece for this new political narrative. In saying

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that, I have the privilege of running a big party. It is a party I

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intend to make much bigger. That means I need to be able to

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accommodate different views and make my party more democratic. Are you

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going to shift left or right click we are a centre-right party, but...

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Towards the left? Towards the centre. We need to find a way to

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coexist. Certainly our differences within the party are very small

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compared to those we have when it comes to comparing our party with

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Alexis Tsipras. I feel that there are a lot of moderate Greeks who

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work in the private economy and have suffered in the crisis who are not

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represented politically today. They view New Democracy with scepticism

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because of the reasons you have said. You have been forced to the

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left because of Alexis Tsipras' popularity? I consider myself a

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centre-right Liberal politician. My views are closer to the political

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centre. I would never do something that goes against those fundamental

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core views. All elections in a 2-party system are won all lost in

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the political centre. Strategically, this is the right choice for New

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Democracy. Looking at the Greek economy, it is still in dire

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straits. You have been talking in Brussels to the EU officials.

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Creditors are carrying out a review to see whether you are complying

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with the demands they have made as part of the austerity measures. You

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have accused the previous government of being incompetent in its

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management, specifically looking at this difficult issue of pension

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reform, which is very critical in Greece? We have seen reports of

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pensioners suffering and on the brink of despair in Greece?

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Incompetence is probably a mild word when we look at how the government

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before me behaved in the first few months in power. They need to

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understand that we are paying the price today for a catastrophic

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negotiation which that government decided to pursue during their first

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six months in power. It pushed Rees to the brink of the terms of the EU

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exit and weakened the Greek economy. The economy would have grown this

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year if we had been able to continue on the path we have... You don't

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know that. Battle is the assumption. What we do know for sure is that we

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are again in a recession. There is an additional bill. That needs to be

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paid, primarily by pensioners or by new pensioners. We know that this

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additional bill is a result of the negotiations of Alexis Tsipras.

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I dispute that. Until Alexis Tsipras came on the scene, you said pensions

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were viable and two 2060. We said there was a report that said

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interventions made in the pension system between 2010 and 2014 were

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sufficient to ensure the viability of the system assuming nothing else

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changed. You accept that? What I will tell you is that my pension

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reform is probably necessary, especially now. My criticism is not

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why is Alexis Tsipras engaging in pension reform, but the direction he

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is taking is wrong. You are blaming him for part of the mass the pension

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systems is in now? I am blaming him for the fact there is a fiscal gap.

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On this pension issue, which is very important, he says this report you

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agree with that pensions were viable until Syriza came to power, it is

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wrong for several reasons. It is over optimistic and has over

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optimistic projections of growth and unemployment coming down. Youth

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unemployment is about 50% in Greece. You still have a fragmented and

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costly pension system in Greece, and because you have the low-grade,

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expenditure has increased. You are absolutely right to point out the

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pension problem in Greece will never be solved unless we turn to

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sustainable growth. The question is why has this not happened? I think

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Greece could grow at three or 4% a year issuing it had a government

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which was truly committed to attracting private investment and

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truly pro- reform, would support entrepreneurship. Which is what the

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study package demands. -- austerity. That is microsystem with Alexis

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Tsipras. He is half-heartedly implementing the reforms. Why is he

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doing that? At heart, he is a left politician and believes in a big

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state, he believes in public investment. He does not support

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private investment or entrepreneurship. My fundamental

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difference is a difference of how do we envision Greece returning to

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sustainable growth. One Syriza candidate in Athens last year said

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of Alexis Tsipras he was the first to tell the truth and say that these

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economic austerity measures will hurt, but unnecessary, and we will

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do everything in our power to soften the blow for the weakest in society.

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What is the matter with that? There are so many weak and vulnerable

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including pensioners in Greece. By two other in Greece today? I would

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argue the weakest are the unemployed. What is he doing to

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create jobs in Greece? -- who other weakest? People are being hindered

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by regular treat burdens but also specific decisions taken by

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ministers in this government that make the life of foreign investors

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difficult. There has been a change in the political landscape in Greece

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since my collection, which is welcomed I'm me and my party --

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election. It is reflected in the polls. And I hope I will be able to

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sustain it. Will you be raising expectations as to what you can do

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as the opposition leader in taking on Syriza because you are so high in

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the polls? My job is to contain expectations by telling the truth.

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If people expect me to overpromise, I will not do that. We now know

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these reforms have to be passed through Parliament, and as the Greek

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central bank governor said, about to lay, every hour we fail to complete

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the review weighs on confidence -- delay. Will you back the government

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in Parliament on these pension reforms? We will not back ever

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reform that is moving in the wrong direction. What would you do

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different? Would be much more aggressive in cutting supplemental

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pensions. Cut pensions even more? We have the main and the supplemental

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pensions. Supplemental pensions are funded by employees and employers

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and they should be no direct state contribution. What I have said is we

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have the noble funds, which I still funded by the state budget, but we

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should reconsider that. So the message you will be digging is cut

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pensions? If you want to cut pensions you have to first go after

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those who are privileged. And there is room for more spending cuts, for

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example, Alexis Tsipras announced an increase in wages of civil servants.

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That is a mistake and I asked him to take it back. So you will not back

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him unless you see changes was Mack I will not back him. It is

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inconceivable in a parliamentary system to have two majorities. If

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the Syriza MPs don't like his plane they will defect and New Democracy

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will step in to support him. And on all other measures which we disagree

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with him, Alexis Tsipras kids is no majority. It does not work. We have

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a majority, a minority, a government, and opposition. EU

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leaders are demanding Greece to more to tighten up its maritime border

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with Turkey and also to set out reliable identity checks at

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registration centres and provide medium-term shelter for the

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thousands of refugees. I have so clearly we have differences, but we

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need to find common ground and a national strategy. EU leaders say if

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Greece does not do enough, you could be suspended temporarily from the

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Schengen. This government did not realise the intensity of the

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problem. But there has been a significant acceleration. We are

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managing this better. It is also unfair because Europe has not done

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its fair share in terms of relocating their refugees to

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European countries. This debate has been held hostage to national

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politics and Greece has been a convenient scapegoat. That is not

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fair for my country. Do not ask agrees Europe needs to improve its

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borders but says he think there is more effort required by Grace --

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Donald Tusk. So do I. If Greece is temporarily suspended from the

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Schengen agreement, what will that mean? That would be very problematic

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for Greece, but also to Europe because we are not just talking

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about a temporary suspension of Greece, but the Schengen regime for

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the entire continent. We have three months to improve our external

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border management. We will comply with our obligations, but the

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problem is much deeper and complicated. Unless Turkey does more

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to control the flow of migrants and refugees, it has the ability to do

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so, for example, over the last week, we saw significant declines in the

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flow of refugees and migrants. This problem will not be solved, so we

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need to constructively engage Turkey in this debate. Finally, Kyriakos

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Mitsotakis, as leader of New Democracy, did you think you will

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follow in your Father's steps and become Prime Minister of Greece? I

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hope I will become Prime Minister, not because I am following in his

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footsteps, but that is what my job of opposition is. Ensure my party

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will win the next election. But I consider myself a different type of

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politician, more modern and more reformist. More practical. Not

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defined by your family? You have your sister, the former Foreign

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Minister, as your Shadow Minister. Sometimes family issues can become

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located, but I think I have proven I am my own men after many years in

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politics. I have the resume to support what I'm doing. A lot of

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people are supporting what I'm doing in Greece and that makes me quite

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optimistic. Kyriakos Mitsotakis, thank you for coming on HARDtalk.

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Thank you for having me.

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