Kyriakos Mitsotakis - President of New Democracy, Greece HARDtalk

David Cameron has said leaving the EU would be a "leap in the dark".

Welcome to HARDtalk with me, Zeinab Badawi. We are in Brussels, where my

guest has been holding informal talks with EU officials. Kyriakos

Mitsotakis has just been elected leader of Greece's main opposition,

New Democracy. New leaders are carrying out a review to see if

Greece is complying with its tough bailout conditions. Does need New

Democracy share some of the blame for the economic mess that Greece

finds itself in? Kyriakos Mitsotakis, welcome to the

programme. Thank you. When you were elected leader in January, is said

to target was first to represent everyone in the country who opposes

the populism of an incompetent government, referring to the

government led by Alexis Tsipras. He is populist, or popular? Is popular

and populist. Greece has suffered a lot from populism in this crisis.

The problem with Alexis Tsipras is that he overpromised and under

delivered. I don't know if it was because he didn't understand what he

was saying, or he consciously decided to lie to the Greek people.

The end result had to do with the fact that he was massively

constrained by what he said before the elections, hence the tragic

negotiating strategy which almost led us outside the eurozone. I won't

repeat mistakes. His party has been in existence for only about three

years, he made it the strongest party in Greece. It won two

elections. It was very popular last year and similarly in September. A

large part of his appeal is because he is seen as a breath of fresh air.

He doesn't stand for the old, like your party? That is then interesting

dilemma. I think he was successful in convincing the Greek people that

he represented something new. My argument would be the opposite. He

is the latest reincarnation of old politics. I would not be surprised

that this comes from someone who represents a party that comes from

the old regime. If you look at who has actually voted for Alexis

Tsipras, those people who did not want anything to change in the

country, the traditional voters. The former socialists? They moved over

to support Alexis Tsipras. He came at a time when public opinion was

still involved with populism. Now we have seen all incarnations of

populism. You mentioned a client list of state, which is what Alexis

Tsipras accused the opposition as being the promoters of clientalism

-- clientalism. The new democracy government in 2009, 100,000 new jobs

created in the civil service over five years. It was almost as though

these jobs were seen as the spoils of government? That is certainly

true. I have been very honest in addressing my party's shortcomings

when it comes to using the state as a mechanism to promote our party

agenda. To a certain extent, one of the reasons that Greece went

bankrupt was to do with the parties adopting this attitude. But it is

time for a clean break. I am being quite honest in terms of accepting

our mistakes and I am absolutely committed not to repeat these

mistakes. Do you think it is odd and surprising that you are accusing the

answer is a party of clientalism, when you should be perhaps looking

at digging out the clientalism that has been in your party? I was in a

previous government for 18 months in 2013. I did my best to change these

practices. I think I was relatively successful. I am accusing Alexis

Tsipras of the same sense of clientalism because I have hard

evidence. He supports his friends and family. You can do that as

leader of the main opposition, but are you also carrying out an

internal investigation into potential abuse by your own party in

the past, even if you weren't in power? We have been very honest

about our past and assuming responsibility for past tractors is.

I think in terms of the political blame, this has already been... As

an investigation? There is nothing illegal being done here. This was a

political practice which was very common in Greece during the good old

days, which is no longer tolerated by Greek public opinion. One of my

priorities for the party is to move towards a new party Congress, which

will take place in a few months. I have made it very clear that I want

new faces in new people in the party. It is not easy, because the

party has been associated with the past you describe. It is my job to

make this party attractive to people who view politics with scepticism.

The problem in Greece is attracting people to the public service. It is

not happening because of the cynicism which exists. To a certain

extent it is justified, but my job is to change that attitude. With all

respect, old man, new face. Your father was a former New Democracy

Prime Minister. Your shadow cabinet, the nephew of the former prime

minister is also in your shadow cabinet. Old name, a new face? We

have struggled with this. We are not the only country which has a

tradition of political dynasty is. It happens in the US and other

countries. I have struggled a lot with this issue since I first

entered politics. People always told me that I must have an unfair

advantage. The truth is that people are much more sceptical when they

see someone coming from a political family. I feel that I had to work

twice as hard to prove myself. I would give an opportunity to people

who did not have the same advantage as I did. I have made it very clear

that I will not tolerate a party which is functioning more on the

basis of personal connections than meritocracy. We are where we are

now, there was a Coalition government until Alexis Tsipras came

to power in 2015. Under that previous government, tax reforms

were one of the things that the creditors were demanding. In 2014

when you are in the government as reform Minister, the head of

Greece' tax collection agency resigned claiming he was under

political pressure to go easy on sensitive targets. I contrast this

with what the current government is doing. The Finance Minister said he

is carrying out important work with Greek banks, and said your party

would never have done that because it is like turkeys voting for

Christmas? He is not right. There was a lot of work done to fight tax

evasion under the previous government. At some point, we need

to finish with this distinction that one party is by definition a more

honest simply because they belong to the left or right. He was also

accusing a centre-left of doing the same thing. Let me make a reference

to the resignation. I think that was a mistake. I criticise my government

at the time about the handling of this case. We need independent

people managing critical positions. I am struggling to see whether you

are going to be the person with the broom who is going to sweep out some

of the mistakes that yourself have admitted were committed by the old

guard within your own party? That is what people want to see,

investigations, people who were in past governments and are associated

with the bad old days. As I said, in my shadow cabinet, I primarily

picked people who have not been associated with the past of New

Democracy. I still consider the overall footprint of New Democracy

to be positive, especially compared to others. We made mistakes... What

will you do about those mistakes? Civil service, jobs in the past

going to associate supporters? I can tell you that in terms of me being

very vocal about mistakes that we have made, I have already done much

more than any predecessor has ever done in terms of criticising our

past. Without going as far as addressing issues which, in my mind,

have been resolved politically, because at the end of the day we

politicians and are judged on our electoral results. If there are just

as issues that need to be investigated, that is of a different

magnitude. Is it because you have to tread carefully? You have one member

who stood against you for the membership, and you won by a narrow

but comfortable margin? Is that why you feel you have to be careful? I

want to be very clear. When I started my campaign for party

leader, I was the outsider. I think nobody expected me to win because I

was very honest and I said things as I thought they should be said.

People said someone who speaks the truth in Greece and is not a

populist has no chance of being elected. I proved them wrong. There

is a clear desire in Greece for this new political narrative. In saying

that, I have the privilege of running a big party. It is a party I

intend to make much bigger. That means I need to be able to

accommodate different views and make my party more democratic. Are you

going to shift left or right click we are a centre-right party, but...

Towards the left? Towards the centre. We need to find a way to

coexist. Certainly our differences within the party are very small

compared to those we have when it comes to comparing our party with

Alexis Tsipras. I feel that there are a lot of moderate Greeks who

work in the private economy and have suffered in the crisis who are not

represented politically today. They view New Democracy with scepticism

because of the reasons you have said. You have been forced to the

left because of Alexis Tsipras' popularity? I consider myself a

centre-right Liberal politician. My views are closer to the political

centre. I would never do something that goes against those fundamental

core views. All elections in a 2-party system are won all lost in

the political centre. Strategically, this is the right choice for New

Democracy. Looking at the Greek economy, it is still in dire

straits. You have been talking in Brussels to the EU officials.

Creditors are carrying out a review to see whether you are complying

with the demands they have made as part of the austerity measures. You

have accused the previous government of being incompetent in its

management, specifically looking at this difficult issue of pension

reform, which is very critical in Greece? We have seen reports of

pensioners suffering and on the brink of despair in Greece?

Incompetence is probably a mild word when we look at how the government

before me behaved in the first few months in power. They need to

understand that we are paying the price today for a catastrophic

negotiation which that government decided to pursue during their first

six months in power. It pushed Rees to the brink of the terms of the EU

exit and weakened the Greek economy. The economy would have grown this

year if we had been able to continue on the path we have... You don't

know that. Battle is the assumption. What we do know for sure is that we

are again in a recession. There is an additional bill. That needs to be

paid, primarily by pensioners or by new pensioners. We know that this

additional bill is a result of the negotiations of Alexis Tsipras.

I dispute that. Until Alexis Tsipras came on the scene, you said pensions

were viable and two 2060. We said there was a report that said

interventions made in the pension system between 2010 and 2014 were

sufficient to ensure the viability of the system assuming nothing else

changed. You accept that? What I will tell you is that my pension

reform is probably necessary, especially now. My criticism is not

why is Alexis Tsipras engaging in pension reform, but the direction he

is taking is wrong. You are blaming him for part of the mass the pension

systems is in now? I am blaming him for the fact there is a fiscal gap.

On this pension issue, which is very important, he says this report you

agree with that pensions were viable until Syriza came to power, it is

wrong for several reasons. It is over optimistic and has over

optimistic projections of growth and unemployment coming down. Youth

unemployment is about 50% in Greece. You still have a fragmented and

costly pension system in Greece, and because you have the low-grade,

expenditure has increased. You are absolutely right to point out the

pension problem in Greece will never be solved unless we turn to

sustainable growth. The question is why has this not happened? I think

Greece could grow at three or 4% a year issuing it had a government

which was truly committed to attracting private investment and

truly pro- reform, would support entrepreneurship. Which is what the

study package demands. -- austerity. That is microsystem with Alexis

Tsipras. He is half-heartedly implementing the reforms. Why is he

doing that? At heart, he is a left politician and believes in a big

state, he believes in public investment. He does not support

private investment or entrepreneurship. My fundamental

difference is a difference of how do we envision Greece returning to

sustainable growth. One Syriza candidate in Athens last year said

of Alexis Tsipras he was the first to tell the truth and say that these

economic austerity measures will hurt, but unnecessary, and we will

do everything in our power to soften the blow for the weakest in society.

What is the matter with that? There are so many weak and vulnerable

including pensioners in Greece. By two other in Greece today? I would

argue the weakest are the unemployed. What is he doing to

create jobs in Greece? -- who other weakest? People are being hindered

by regular treat burdens but also specific decisions taken by

ministers in this government that make the life of foreign investors

difficult. There has been a change in the political landscape in Greece

since my collection, which is welcomed I'm me and my party --

election. It is reflected in the polls. And I hope I will be able to

sustain it. Will you be raising expectations as to what you can do

as the opposition leader in taking on Syriza because you are so high in

the polls? My job is to contain expectations by telling the truth.

If people expect me to overpromise, I will not do that. We now know

these reforms have to be passed through Parliament, and as the Greek

central bank governor said, about to lay, every hour we fail to complete

the review weighs on confidence -- delay. Will you back the government

in Parliament on these pension reforms? We will not back ever

reform that is moving in the wrong direction. What would you do

different? Would be much more aggressive in cutting supplemental

pensions. Cut pensions even more? We have the main and the supplemental

pensions. Supplemental pensions are funded by employees and employers

and they should be no direct state contribution. What I have said is we

have the noble funds, which I still funded by the state budget, but we

should reconsider that. So the message you will be digging is cut

pensions? If you want to cut pensions you have to first go after

those who are privileged. And there is room for more spending cuts, for

example, Alexis Tsipras announced an increase in wages of civil servants.

That is a mistake and I asked him to take it back. So you will not back

him unless you see changes was Mack I will not back him. It is

inconceivable in a parliamentary system to have two majorities. If

the Syriza MPs don't like his plane they will defect and New Democracy

will step in to support him. And on all other measures which we disagree

with him, Alexis Tsipras kids is no majority. It does not work. We have

a majority, a minority, a government, and opposition. EU

leaders are demanding Greece to more to tighten up its maritime border

with Turkey and also to set out reliable identity checks at

registration centres and provide medium-term shelter for the

thousands of refugees. I have so clearly we have differences, but we

need to find common ground and a national strategy. EU leaders say if

Greece does not do enough, you could be suspended temporarily from the

Schengen. This government did not realise the intensity of the

problem. But there has been a significant acceleration. We are

managing this better. It is also unfair because Europe has not done

its fair share in terms of relocating their refugees to

European countries. This debate has been held hostage to national

politics and Greece has been a convenient scapegoat. That is not

fair for my country. Do not ask agrees Europe needs to improve its

borders but says he think there is more effort required by Grace --

Donald Tusk. So do I. If Greece is temporarily suspended from the

Schengen agreement, what will that mean? That would be very problematic

for Greece, but also to Europe because we are not just talking

about a temporary suspension of Greece, but the Schengen regime for

the entire continent. We have three months to improve our external

border management. We will comply with our obligations, but the

problem is much deeper and complicated. Unless Turkey does more

to control the flow of migrants and refugees, it has the ability to do

so, for example, over the last week, we saw significant declines in the

flow of refugees and migrants. This problem will not be solved, so we

need to constructively engage Turkey in this debate. Finally, Kyriakos

Mitsotakis, as leader of New Democracy, did you think you will

follow in your Father's steps and become Prime Minister of Greece? I

hope I will become Prime Minister, not because I am following in his

footsteps, but that is what my job of opposition is. Ensure my party

will win the next election. But I consider myself a different type of

politician, more modern and more reformist. More practical. Not

defined by your family? You have your sister, the former Foreign

Minister, as your Shadow Minister. Sometimes family issues can become

located, but I think I have proven I am my own men after many years in

politics. I have the resume to support what I'm doing. A lot of

people are supporting what I'm doing in Greece and that makes me quite

optimistic. Kyriakos Mitsotakis, thank you for coming on HARDtalk.

Thank you for having me.