Martin Schulz, President of the European Parliament HARDtalk


Martin Schulz, President of the European Parliament

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All 28 leaders of the European Union word holed in buildings here in

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Brussels for hours late into the night to the end of last week trying

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to strike a deal that would keep the UK in the European Union. The

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British people have their say on what they came up with in a

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referendum in June. If they vote to leave

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the EU what will it mean for the UK My guess today is the president of

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the European parliament, Martin Schulz.

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Could Britain's vote tear the whole union apart?

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Martin Schulz, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you. Did David Cameron get a

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good deal from the other leaders of the European Union? Yes. It was a

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difficult negotiation, but very prepared and by parliament

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contributed to improve the papers on the table and I think, yes, it is a

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deal which helped, I hope, to convince British voters to say in

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the European Union. It is a far cry from the fundamental change he

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promised when he went into the negotiation, isn't it? I think there

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is a change to the four pages of this negotiation paper and the deal

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on the basis of that paper, you will find a lot of things he asked for,

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especially the agreement on better lawmaking between the European

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Union, the commission and the member states, which shows a lot of

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requests from David Cameron, less burden for small to medium

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enterprises, more effectiveness, less bureaucracy, more transparency,

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is already in that agreement, so I think that the deal is based on some

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major improvements. Let's consider what difference it will make. Those

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things you are talking about were things that he European Union,

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Brussels, promised it would do, become more competitive. What about

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this promise that the UK will be excluded from ever closer union? Do

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you think that will actually change anything for the UK? I think the

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list of opt outs of the UK from European policies is impressive, and

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opt out from Schengen, the euro, the police and justice cooperation in

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some areas, so if ever closer union was not binding in the past, the UK

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is approved. So what we described now is a reality. That is what I am

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curious about, what is different? Those things already exist. Now the

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28 member states agreed this is not binding for those who don't want

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that. This is clarity. It makes clarification for British voters in

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the referendum that this is now crystal clear, this is not binding

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for the United Kingdom. And the treaties will be changed to reflect

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that? Future treaty changes, changes to come, yes. This is an agreement

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to include this when the treaty change will happen in the next

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years. But one thing we should add is also other countries, especially

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eurozone countries, yes, in a future treaty change, that should be

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implemented and others as well. To be clear, because a lot of people

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have said different things about this, not least the French Foreign

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Minister, who says there will be no revision of treaties, no veto for

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the UK and no calling into question the principle of free circulation,

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that is certainly different from what has been told to the UK which

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is that this will be legally binding and irreversible because it will be

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in the treaties of the EU, that is right? The deal with the United

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Kingdom was absolutely clear. Never closer union is legally not binding

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for the United Kingdom. It was agreed between the 28 member states

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and in the future treaty change that will be written exactly, literally

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like it is in the treaty. So, nobody can tell to British voters other

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things. It was written clearly on the paper. OK. On migrants and

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benefits, which is a big issue which caused difficulties on negotiations,

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there was as a result of this deal that there will be changes to

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in-work benefits with a four-year taper that can be in place for seven

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years, and then they will be paid child benefit at the cost of living

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from the migrants own country. Do you think the effect of those

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changes to benefits will put EU migrants off going to the UK? I

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don't believe so. The whole exercise was to protect the United Kingdom

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for the time being, to be abused with the welfare system of the

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United Kingdom, and this is understandable, and in a temporary

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limited time I think it is admissible to accept differences

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between UK citizens and noncitizens. If this is temporarily

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limited it is acceptable because other countries did the same after

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the Eastern Europe countries joined the EU. Some countries, my own

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included, had a seven year free period of access to the labour

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market. The UK did not participate in there. That is the justification

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for allowing it but my question is different - will it put off migrants

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and you say no? For the time being the UK described the situation, and

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the situation was the justification to get this out. The answer to your

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question is logically, if this is then applied, I think it will lead

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to less migration to the United Kingdom but for the time being it is

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obviously the case that the United Kingdom argues we have too much and

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therefore we want that opt out and I understood your question as a

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question for the future - will it in future times - and it is difficult

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for me to predict it, but I presume the opt out is asked to prevent too

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much in the United Kingdom. Indeed it is but there are some people who

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say that you can introduce changes but they won't make a difference,

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they won't put people off coming, so why did you have so many leaders

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negotiating into the night over this? Look at some people might say

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it, OK, but the reality is the United Kingdom feels too much burden

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for the time being. I think for the labour market, they asked that a

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temporary limit exception because they want to bring order in that

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situation, and the goal is to reduce the number of people looking for a

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job in the United Kingdom with this additional credits and therefore the

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whole exercise led to exactly that conclusion. So, it may be that

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people say, it won't lead to the effects David Cameron raced but my

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opinion is it will lead to it. That makes for a lot of people, by the

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way, it led to difficult debate in the European council, because

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especially the eastern European countries felt that this is a

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problem for their citizens and therefore I have to repeat that it

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will create the perfect but everybody must be clear it is

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temporarily limited. Seven years, no more. And the other thing is that

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other people not least Germany, since it has been struck, have

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looked at it and have said, we should look if we can apply this,

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indexation of child benefit, for example. Exclusively, indexation of

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child benefit, all others claim to do the same. A spokes person said it

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is a viable option that child benefits will be adjusted and they

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will discuss it. That was one conclusion that from a certain

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moment it is open for all member states to do the same, and the

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German Chancellor said this is a thing we should consider as well,

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yes, that is true, but only this one. Only that aspect? This was a

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fear that was raised, this idea of contagion. Is it entirely acceptable

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if other countries now say let index child benefit? I have a certain

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understanding for it because the question is where other children

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living? If someone is working in one place and family is living in

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another place the question is not if he has not the right to get child

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benefit but the child benefit should be linked to where the child lives.

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This is no dramatic thing. I find it a very pragmatic approach. Other

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countries saying OK we will do the same and that is understandable.

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There will be some element of contagion. We discussed at the

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request of the UK and this was a specific UK negotiation, not German.

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If the Germans, after the agreement, say one element of the

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agreement could apply also for us, OK. But that doesn't change the

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reality that we negotiated about the specific status of the United

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Kingdom. You will know David Cameron came back and there were plenty of

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people not least a Tory MP Jacob Rees who said for so much labour he

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has achieved so little. And it was this argument that, you had everyone

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talking about child benefit, or tapering in-work benefits. These are

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tiny details that are not the fundamental reform that a lot of

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Britain wants a. Yes but this is because I can't comment on every

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observation of any backbencher in the Tories. I want to ask you about

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another conservative MP, the Mayor of London Boris Johnson, because he

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argues, you may say it is significant, but he thinks there is

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a better and bigger negotiation that can be had and he is arguing,

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campaigning, to leave the EU because he says there is only one way to get

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the change we need, and that is to vote to go because all EU history

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shows that only listen to population when it says no. I would like to be

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in a reformed EU, that is my hope, and EU based on fundamental change.

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I have nothing to comment about Boris Johnson and what he is doing

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-- an. One thing is clear for me, clearer since Boris Johnson has

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expressed his view, for the first time since a long time a

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conservative Prime Minister of the United Kingdom is fighting for

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Europe and for the European Union. This is progress in itself. So Boris

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Johnson contributed to a real change in Europe. The Prime Minister of the

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United Kingdom is fighting for the European Union. Boris Johnson is

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suggesting something else, that there could be a second referendum

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and a second renegotiation. He should read the conclusions. My

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feeling is he is also contributing to clarification. The Prime Minister

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of the United Kingdom is running for the campaign to stay in and that

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makes him, because it is not about a Tory debate, it is about the

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competence of British voters, all British voters, and this is an

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advantage for David Cameron. OK, so, if there is this referendum in

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June, and actually the British people vote to leave, and perhaps,

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perhaps David Cameron resigns, or David Cameron comes back, or maybe

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Boris Johnson is negotiating again and saving, hold on a second, we

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might be prepared to stay in a fully reformed EU -- saying. OK, now we

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have an agreement, we are running all to convince British citizens to

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vote for that agreement. I am asking you, could there be a second deal?

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28 heads of state and government after a very difficult and details

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negotiations, on the basis of a very tough negotiated result, are now

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asking all together British voters to vote for an agreement on the

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table. What do you believe, that we ask all together British voters to

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vote yes because we say, but if you vote not yet then we restart the

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whole exercise? I think it is quite clear that we ask it is a good

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deal, British voters to vote yes. But you don't will out a

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renegotiation, an alternative, more fundamental, after a no vote, which

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could lead to another referendum. The only thing I will out is the

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following one, that I participate in any debate about not to defend the

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deal we agreed and to ask British voters to vote for that deal. I

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could never imagine in my life where it is the case to support a

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conservative Prime Minister of the United Kingdom to fight for the

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European Union! It is a wonderful thing. You are enjoying it.

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Absolutely! It changed Europe already. Look, the fact that a

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conservative Prime Minister, a Tory Prime Minister, is now running in

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the Commons across the country, defending the European Union, saying

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we should stay in because it is better for us and the union, this is

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real progress. But he might not win. He will. I am

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convinced. And those who are saying vote to leave and have a free trade

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arrangement with the EU. He raised the number of free trade agreements

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to 57. He has to renegotiate with all of the states of the European

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Union. Let us be honest about that. This is a better way to stay in.

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Between negotiating with people who want access to British markets, so

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there would be, not least the companies within the EU, saying do a

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deal because we need the buyers. I'm grateful for your question because

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it shows the Eichmann for those who want to leave and restart the whole

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negotiation process. They're leaving one of the biggest economies of the

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world in limbo for years. Particularly in uncertain times. Is

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better to stay in. The day after the deal was struck, Britain remains in

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the EU, it kills it under the conditions it is in. If it leaves,

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it kills it too. The art and that was that setting up special

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conditions to those not happy to start to the membership causes

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problems because any member of the state could say I want that. Do you

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think there is something in that that it has damaged the European

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Union? The agreement on Friday and Saturday was crystal clear. It was a

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United Kingdom agreement. It was only the United Kingdom asking and

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the government pushing for a referendum. On the other countries

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it was discussed. I've heard that 27 heads of government that this was a

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UK deal. Nobody made a similar appeal. But all those leaders go

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back home to the country 's with there are significant Eurosceptic

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parties saying that we want some of that. I hope my answer was clear

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enough. And I repeat. There's no room for Semler besieges. There was

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another issue to be discussed and that is migration and the refugee

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crisis. Is their frustration there was discussion about ' yellow

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particularly in Germany that we had not found the necessary solidarity

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with other countries. But we also moved in the right direction. We'll

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meet again with the Turkish government and we will apply to the

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so-called package with Turkey and we will control the borders more

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effectively, and the transfer of those who have no right to be

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political asylum seekers. We agree on the relocation scheme and putting

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that into force and we have a good chance to do that. Will look at the

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way the EU is reacting to the situation in Greece. Let us be

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precise. My parliament, the commission, even some of the

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authorities of the countries are acting coherent and in a clear and

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precise and defined way of relocation, receiving the citizens

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in the hotspots, identification, and cooperation between the necessary

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authorities. Who is objecting against his? And the threat to

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reimpose for a new border... Who is arguing for that? The European Union

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or member states with an egoistic approach. They are saying if they

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don't get their act together the border will be reimpose in three

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months. It will be a big refugee camp. And that would be a mistake?

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Absolutely. What will the people do. Will they flee from Islamic state?

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Will look for another way. They will head to the Mediterranean. You will

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not prevent with closing the borders someone who is fleeing from Islamic

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State. To close the borders is no solution. It would be a fair

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redistribution of the refugees among the 28 member states. And yet there

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is no movement towards that for all the people saying this is what

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should be done. Countries all over the EU are effectively ditching the

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agreement and closing their borders. Absolutely. And why? National

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interest instead This is your bleeding into disaster.

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On the migration question, how do you change that? Because there is no

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evidence countries will accept the redistribution. We need a pragmatic

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solution based on our humanitarian responsibility. We are the richest

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part of the world and very egoistic in some of the member states. Joe --

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Joe Mennie has said that refugees can coming to our country. And we

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ask that other countries practice that solidarity. You know there are

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plenty of people in Europe that say that Germany has made a mistake and

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acted like a magnet. I can't understand that a very rich country

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sticking to this humanitarian responsibility makes a mistake. If

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it is a mistake to be solid with people fleeing Islamic State, then I

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will repeat that mistake. Those who are saying it is a German problem,

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we have nothing to do with it, I draw a fence around my country and

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then globalisation will pass away. So Austria, Sweden... They've

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already drawing up defence when they were taking in refugee. We should

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not blame them, but the others had not taken a single refugee. Because

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they've taken so many, they are closing their borders or putting a

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cap on it. Are you saying don't blame them because they've already

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taken them in? I find this unfair for those who taken hundreds of

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thousands of refugees compare to those who have taken nobody cast be

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criticised. I would criticise those who have taken nobody. Like to? --

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who? The Prime Minister of Hungary, here in the European Parliament

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standing beside me said, ladies and gentlemen, this is a German

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problem. It is not I Hungary and problem. We don't take refugees.

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This is a member state of the European Union. What you think

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should happen? You blame the countries like Sweden who have taken

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many refugees. What you think should happen to those people question

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yellow we should stick to the relocation scheme. And if they don't

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accept it with you kick them out -- will you? I can't risk excluding a

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country from the European Union. I prefer to answer to the previous

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question, how to solve a problem. Not through exclusion, but by

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encouraging those countries who want to participate in the relocation

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scheme to do so and to start to relocate the people. The refugee

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crisis, Britain leaving, can you remember a time when the EU was

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under threat as it was now? Is very data it can tear itself apart -- is

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there a possibility? Never in my lifetime. If Reddish voters vote to

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stay in the European Union, this is a signal of an coachman for all of

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us. -- British. Thank you for coming in.

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Fairly frosty out there at the moment.

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The sunshine that many saw by day captured nicely by some of

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our Weather Watchers, well, followed by moonlit skies through the night.

:24:51.:24:53.

The cloud melted away for many, and temperatures have taken a tumble.

:24:54.:24:56.

Even in the city centres we've got temperatures close to freezing

:24:57.:24:59.

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