Selim Yenel - Turkey's Ambassador to the European Union HARDtalk


Selim Yenel - Turkey's Ambassador to the European Union

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Welcome to HARDtalk. I'm Stephen Sackur. 120,000 refugees and

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migrants made the sea crossing from Turkey to Greece in the first two

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months of this year, outstripping the number for the first six months

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of last year. So much for the U Turkey deal to stem the flow of

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desperate people. Ankara feels overburdened and undervalued. Our

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frustration with Turkey is melting. My guest is Turkey's EU ambassador

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said Yenel. Is his government coding a dangerous pathSelim Yenel.

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Ambassador Selim Yenel in Brussels, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you very

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much. Brussels and Ankara were supposed to have done a deal last

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November. You were going to get all lot of money, and in return you are

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going to stem the flow of desperate people making these sea crossing

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from Turkey to Greece. It has clearly been a total failure. On the

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contrary. We have made agreements more than three months ago. There

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was a deal between us, but it was not a quid pro quo. There was lots

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more than that. The 3 billion are coming in when we agree on the

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projects. We leave that the joint action plan is working. We have

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taken a lot of measures. We have reintroduced these for Syrians. We

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have taken other measures, such as what we have done on the coast, on

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the borderline, having more agreements with our neighbours.

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We've passed legislation is so that Syrians can work legally in Turkey.

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Nato is involved. When I heard the numbers compared to last year are so

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high, I think that is a wrong analogy. The migrant movement of the

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refugees started in the summer. So when you compare it with last

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January and February, of course the numbers will be high. So that's not

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the right analogy. Surely that is, because it is the first piece of key

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evidence about what you are doing on the ground. The assumption was that

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after this deal, your government would get serious about security

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operations on that coastal area to ensure that people smugglers could

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not put thousands of people every day onto those boats making that

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very dangerous crossing. Your actions haven't delivered. This is

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exactly what we are doing. How come thousands of people every day are

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making that crossing, then? We have captured people who are trying to

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get away. We are capturing smugglers and traffickers. The numbers would

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have been much higher if we hadn't done that. Recently, we have

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accepted more than 800 people from Greece. The measures we are taking

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are working, but they need some time. The EU expects the numbers to

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go down to zero in media. Look at the trends. They are going down, not

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as quickly as you want, maybe, but they are. I understand that the EU

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is not patient enough, patience is in short supply, we understand that.

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But we are working. I guess the concern from many in Brussels and

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Europe is about the mindset, the attitude, in your government in

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Turkey. A leaked document that got into the press not so long ago

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looked at the actual language used by your most senior officials in

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discussions with Donald Tusk last November. The 3 billion offered by

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the EU was described as an insult. President Erdogan and said to

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Jean-Claude Juncker, the former Prime Minister of Luxembourg and the

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president of the Commission, that we can open the doors to Greece and

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Bulgaria any time. We can put the refugees on buses. A clear threat

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that Turkey could make things worse. On the contrary. Let me explain. The

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3 billion is very important. We have spent more than 9 billion of our own

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money on the refugees in the camps. We have given ID cards to 2.5

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million in Turkey, and they are able to get free health care in Turkey.

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It's difficult to calculate how many billions we have spent. With these

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remarks, he did not said that we will send them. He said we could

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have. It was a threat. No. On the contrary, he was explaining the

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situation. There's too many expectations from Turkey as if we

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are the gatekeeper. Let me remind you that people had only been

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hurting us on the back until August, telling us we had been doing a great

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job. Only when refugees started to stream into the EU, people started

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to notice. Let's revisit the language right now. Are you telling

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me that this warning that Turkey could, if things get worse, end up

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simply putting hundreds of thousands of refugees on buses and taking them

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to the Borders, are you warning that threat is off the table? Of course

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there is no threat. We have never threatened anybody. Right now we are

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under threat ourselves from Aleppo. If Aleppo falls, and we are more in

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danger, we will have hundreds of thousands of people coming in. And

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we open our borders. We don't let them go elsewhere. We tried to keep

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them safe. There is no threat from our side. It was just an explanation

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of what Turkey could have done. We've seen it happening in EU

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countries. We are not doing it. We are trying to prevent people from

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going. This isn't being appreciated by the EU, so we are dismayed by

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this. You use the word not being appreciated. Other Turkish officials

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have castigated the EU. It seems you are not just disappointed right now,

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you are angry with what you are hearing from the US about what they

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expect from Turkey. We are hearing that we should open our eastern

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borders and close our western borders. We are hearing that the EU

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is in dispute and there is no coherent plan. We are not hearing

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anything about resettlement. If the burden is going to be lifted from

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Turkey, we should hear about resettling people, giving people the

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legal possibility to go to other EU countries without having to brave

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the waters and risk their lives. This isn't happening. We are

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debating these issues and EE units to get its act in order. Your

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government has said that hundreds of thousands of Syrian refugees in

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Turkey should be taken by the EU member state and distributed amongst

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the members. Here's what Prime Minister Viktor or ban of Hungary

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said about that. He said, any plan to take in hundreds of thousands of

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refugees from Turkey and distribute them across Europe is an illusion.

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If Hungary agreed to it they would tie me up on a flagpole here in

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Budapest. We understand that it cannot be mandatory. That has

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clearly failed. It has to be voluntary. There are some countries

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who are willing to do so, like Germany and Sweden. But in the end,

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if we are going to help each other, we have to do it on a voluntary

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basis. Some countries have difficulties accept an them. Let's

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do it together. Given the million who arrived last year into Europe,

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and given the political atmosphere across Europe today, changing

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atmosphere even in countries like Germany, do you seriously think

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there will be a programme any time soon to take hundreds of thousands

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of Syrian refugees from your country direct, and voluntarily take them

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into the EU. Do you seriously think that is going to happen? It is

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possible. If we can do it in an orderly fashion and showed EU we

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stemming the flow of regular migrants coming to the EU, and show

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that we are doing it in a way the streamlining is done on a number, I

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think this can be done. It's not something that we don't expect other

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countries to join in. If there is a leader, like Germany and other

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countries that start this programme, others will maybe feel ashamed about

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this and join in. We need solidarity, and we don't see it. You

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are Turkey's man in Brussels. You monitor mood and political

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atmosphere across Europe. Are you picking up on the degree to which,

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across Europe's capitals, the politics of this right now is to

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find a way to stop more migrants and refugees getting in, rather than

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volunteering to take hundreds of thousands to wreck from Turkey? I

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have seen the panic and chaos, and it is surprising how the EU has

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reacted to it. They cannot handle 1 million in the union, that is

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release uprising. If we can find a way together, we can make it work.

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The irony is that it is up to us to stop the flow. It's up to us to save

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the EE, protect the U. That is ironic, after ignoring us for the

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last ten years. Now they have remembered us. The migration

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commissioner said that unless we can stem the flow, and of course that

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requires Turkey's cooperation, the EU, in his words, is facing

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disaster. Does Turkey feel any sense of responsibility for this crisis,

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this political meltdown, this looming disaster that the EU is

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talking about? We do not feel any responsibility at all. We've been

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dealing it -- with it for the last few years on our own. If the back to

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Mac cannot handle this together, it means that the 28th in the project

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has not been working. They have to find a way to be together. For the

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28 to act together, when a crisis like this happens, and we are not

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seeing that. The irony is that we have two help the EU on this. If you

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think that the EU is so useless, why are you sitting there as an

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ambassador who wants to join it? We still believe that the EU is value

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-based, and I'm sure they will come out of this crisis. They have to

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come out of the crisis and be stronger. We need a strong, sturdy

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EU that is value -based. If that does not happen and we see a

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disaster, we will think twice. Europeans are thinking twice about

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the specific detail of the current negotiations on Turkish accession. A

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general point, one of the things you have required from the EU is part of

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the deal, money and other things you have wanted to help you deliver your

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side of any bargain on migration, you want freezer free travel for

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Turks across -- Visa free travel for Turks across the EU. One of the most

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senior politicians in Angela Merkel's party said they thought it

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was a terrible idea, because even more people might abuse the system

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for migrating into Europe. One example, amongst the 1 million we

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have counted coming into the EU, 40% are Syrians and others are Iraqis or

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other nationalities, but there are no Turks at all. There should be no

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fear of Turks rushing into the EU. We have developed quite highly

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lately, and we believe we deserve a Visa free regime. We have a deal

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concerning a readmission agreement, which will be starting in June, and

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if it is working, and we will show it will be working, after that, we

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will see if the EU delivers on its promises. If they don't, we will

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terminate the readmission agreement. We believe that the EU has nothing

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to fear from us. The readmission agreement is agreeing to take the

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third-party migrants back into Turkey if they came into Turkey in

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the first place. That is another threat you are making. No, it isn't.

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If we abide by our commitments and do everything necessary, and then we

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face another political obstacle that we have faced in the past, what else

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to we have in our hands? That's what we always told them. We abide by the

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rules, by our commitments, and if you don't do it, we will have to

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terminate that. It is not a threat. Some might see it as a threat. One

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more specific point. My last question on the migration specifics.

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You say we are cooperating and we are keeping our side of the bargain.

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We heard yesterday from Nato naval commanders that they were not

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getting permission to operate this new Nato monitoring operation in the

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Aegean Sea, that they did not have permission to enter Turkish waters.

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Not at all. The deal was that we would provide surveillance and

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intelligence gathering, so if they see a vessel leaving Turkey and

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going into territorial waters, they will inform the Turkish coast guard.

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If they reach the Greek waters, they will inform the Greek coastguard.

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Therefore, surveillance and intelligence. Will you let them into

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your territorial waters? Of course. Let's talk about your government's

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overarching policy on Syria. If you look at the way the key players in

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the Serie A crisis are looking at Turkey today, Turkey does look

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pretty isolated. Would you agree with that? We are on the same page

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in many issues. There is some kinds of differences on certain

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approaches. We always want a peaceful solution, a diplomatic

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solution, but it is getting harder and harder. There are too many

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countries involved. We hope that the ceasefire holds. It appears to be

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just about holding, but your government appears to have reserved

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the right to attack as and when necessary the Turkish Syrian militia

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force the Y PG. The Y PG is maintaining the secession of fire.

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Wide you think it would still be legitimate for you to attack them?

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It is a partial ceasefire. It doesn't cover the whole country. So

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if some are there, they can be attacked. The YPG is not seen as a

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terrorist organisation. They are seen as a key part of the offensive

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against so-called Islamic State. You cannot have a good terrorist

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organisation. Just because they are fighting Daesh, doesn't mean they

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are better than the others. They are trying to extend their territory

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into Arab land and they are abusing the situation. Of course, the US and

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others are saying that if they fight Daesh, they are on the good side.

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I can tell you that Vice President Joe Biden said that the PKK and YPG

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different things. That's what he said. That is his interpretation. On

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the ground, we see bombings in our country and we know where it is

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coming from. That's the difference we have. We see it as a terrorist

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organisation. It seems your government, and there are

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substantial Turkish forces close to the Syrian border, your government

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is still contemplating a move inside Syrian territory. President Erdogan

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said recently that he will not allow the creation of any sort of northern

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Syrian Kurdish entity as he allowed a Iraqi Kurdish entity. How far are

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you willing to go? We have had attacks on our side of the border

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from the YPG and others. So they are there for defensive purposes. Who

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knows what will happen in the future and who will attack you. All these

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things have changed in the past and may in the future. A senior rush all

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-- Russian official said that there was a very real possibility, given

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the stance of your government, they conflict between Russia and Turkey

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in northern Syria. That is a pretty dangerous thing to say. We do not

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want that at all. Ever since we shot down a Russian warplanes we tried to

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diffuse the situation, but we are not getting any response from the

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other side. This is unfortunate. We do not want any conflict with any

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neighbouring country, so those kinds of words are not helpful. The

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Russians, it in the form of the Foreign Minister yesterday, asked,

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or demanded, that Turkey seal its border with Syria to stop what the

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Russians say our continued arms supplies going to what the Russians

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called terrorists coming from Turkish territory going into Syria.

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Are you prepared to stop that and seal the border? 1-person's

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terrorist is another's freedom fighter. So is that a no? The

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Russians of their, trying to prop up the regime, and they see things

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quite different league to us that that's quite differently to us. With

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regards to sealing the border, we have to keep it open so we can

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prevent the Syrians are escaping. When you observe Turkey's political

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scene today, do you find that some of the things your government is

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doing make it very difficult for you as a career,, to make Turkey's case

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for membership of the European Union? We have been in discussion

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with the EU on many issues. There are many chapters closed for

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political reasons. Chapters with regards to legal rights and so on.

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We need the EU together. We need to talk about these issues. The more we

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can engage with the EU, the more we have a better situation. We are

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always going form or reforms. The latest EU report in November said

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that the Turkish pace of reform has slowed. There has been backsliding

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on things like independence on the judiciary. A host of journalists and

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writers have been locked up. These are things that the European Union

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finds deeply problematic about what your government is doing today. We

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know the reports. We do not agree with what they say. The judicial

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system is working. Maybe slowly, but it is working. We try to have more

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reforms. But up until recently we were doing it together with the EU.

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But the EU distance itself for a long time. Now we are coming back

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together and we hope we can continue the reforms. I don't agree with a

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lot of things that are written there. It is a different

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interpretation. When you hear of things like 18 academics, respected

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professors, being charged and accused of treachery because of a

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petition they signed expressing concern about military abuses in

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south-east Turkey in the war against the PKK, you send a message back to

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Ankara saying, this isn't helping me and it isn't helping our case in

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Europe? Turkey is aware what is going on in the EU and the press.

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Everything is relayed back to them. There is a judicial system that is

:22:37.:22:41.

working. The prosecutor takes his messages. He has maybe accused

:22:42.:22:47.

people of some things, but in court, things are handled there. There is a

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system that works. Maybe not as fast as one would want, but it does work.

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People in Turkey are aware of what is going on, and the interpretation

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of the EU towards my country. You have devoted decades of your life to

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Turkey's case for membership of the EU. Do you think it will happen in

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your lifetime? Sometimes we joke it will happen during my grandchild's

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lifetime. Joking aside, our membership can only happen if things

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change, if the treaty is change, the way that the EU looks at it. It is a

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matter -- a matter of interest. Past enlargement have happened due to an

:23:34.:23:40.

interest situation. If interests converge, it could happen. The most

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important thing for us is to keep close, to be together as much as

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possible, and we believe that if we reach the same levels as the EU,

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that's good enough for us. The journey is as important as the end

:23:56.:23:59.

result. In the end, we will see how the EU actually develops. Ambassador

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Selim Yenel, we have two end there. Thank you very much for being on

:24:06.:24:07.

HARDtalk. Thank you. We really had it all today on the

:24:08.:24:47.

weather front. Rain, sleet, hail, thunder and icy wind. Tomorrow will

:24:48.:24:51.

feel less cold, the winds will be lighter, and

:24:52.:24:53.

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