Selim Yenel - Turkey's Ambassador to the European Union HARDtalk

Welcome to HARDtalk. I'm Stephen Sackur. 120,000 refugees and

migrants made the sea crossing from Turkey to Greece in the first two

months of this year, outstripping the number for the first six months

of last year. So much for the U Turkey deal to stem the flow of

desperate people. Ankara feels overburdened and undervalued. Our

frustration with Turkey is melting. My guest is Turkey's EU ambassador

said Yenel. Is his government coding a dangerous pathSelim Yenel.

Ambassador Selim Yenel in Brussels, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you very

much. Brussels and Ankara were supposed to have done a deal last

November. You were going to get all lot of money, and in return you are

going to stem the flow of desperate people making these sea crossing

from Turkey to Greece. It has clearly been a total failure. On the

contrary. We have made agreements more than three months ago. There

was a deal between us, but it was not a quid pro quo. There was lots

more than that. The 3 billion are coming in when we agree on the

projects. We leave that the joint action plan is working. We have

taken a lot of measures. We have reintroduced these for Syrians. We

have taken other measures, such as what we have done on the coast, on

the borderline, having more agreements with our neighbours.

We've passed legislation is so that Syrians can work legally in Turkey.

Nato is involved. When I heard the numbers compared to last year are so

high, I think that is a wrong analogy. The migrant movement of the

refugees started in the summer. So when you compare it with last

January and February, of course the numbers will be high. So that's not

the right analogy. Surely that is, because it is the first piece of key

evidence about what you are doing on the ground. The assumption was that

after this deal, your government would get serious about security

operations on that coastal area to ensure that people smugglers could

not put thousands of people every day onto those boats making that

very dangerous crossing. Your actions haven't delivered. This is

exactly what we are doing. How come thousands of people every day are

making that crossing, then? We have captured people who are trying to

get away. We are capturing smugglers and traffickers. The numbers would

have been much higher if we hadn't done that. Recently, we have

accepted more than 800 people from Greece. The measures we are taking

are working, but they need some time. The EU expects the numbers to

go down to zero in media. Look at the trends. They are going down, not

as quickly as you want, maybe, but they are. I understand that the EU

is not patient enough, patience is in short supply, we understand that.

But we are working. I guess the concern from many in Brussels and

Europe is about the mindset, the attitude, in your government in

Turkey. A leaked document that got into the press not so long ago

looked at the actual language used by your most senior officials in

discussions with Donald Tusk last November. The 3 billion offered by

the EU was described as an insult. President Erdogan and said to

Jean-Claude Juncker, the former Prime Minister of Luxembourg and the

president of the Commission, that we can open the doors to Greece and

Bulgaria any time. We can put the refugees on buses. A clear threat

that Turkey could make things worse. On the contrary. Let me explain. The

3 billion is very important. We have spent more than 9 billion of our own

money on the refugees in the camps. We have given ID cards to 2.5

million in Turkey, and they are able to get free health care in Turkey.

It's difficult to calculate how many billions we have spent. With these

remarks, he did not said that we will send them. He said we could

have. It was a threat. No. On the contrary, he was explaining the

situation. There's too many expectations from Turkey as if we

are the gatekeeper. Let me remind you that people had only been

hurting us on the back until August, telling us we had been doing a great

job. Only when refugees started to stream into the EU, people started

to notice. Let's revisit the language right now. Are you telling

me that this warning that Turkey could, if things get worse, end up

simply putting hundreds of thousands of refugees on buses and taking them

to the Borders, are you warning that threat is off the table? Of course

there is no threat. We have never threatened anybody. Right now we are

under threat ourselves from Aleppo. If Aleppo falls, and we are more in

danger, we will have hundreds of thousands of people coming in. And

we open our borders. We don't let them go elsewhere. We tried to keep

them safe. There is no threat from our side. It was just an explanation

of what Turkey could have done. We've seen it happening in EU

countries. We are not doing it. We are trying to prevent people from

going. This isn't being appreciated by the EU, so we are dismayed by

this. You use the word not being appreciated. Other Turkish officials

have castigated the EU. It seems you are not just disappointed right now,

you are angry with what you are hearing from the US about what they

expect from Turkey. We are hearing that we should open our eastern

borders and close our western borders. We are hearing that the EU

is in dispute and there is no coherent plan. We are not hearing

anything about resettlement. If the burden is going to be lifted from

Turkey, we should hear about resettling people, giving people the

legal possibility to go to other EU countries without having to brave

the waters and risk their lives. This isn't happening. We are

debating these issues and EE units to get its act in order. Your

government has said that hundreds of thousands of Syrian refugees in

Turkey should be taken by the EU member state and distributed amongst

the members. Here's what Prime Minister Viktor or ban of Hungary

said about that. He said, any plan to take in hundreds of thousands of

refugees from Turkey and distribute them across Europe is an illusion.

If Hungary agreed to it they would tie me up on a flagpole here in

Budapest. We understand that it cannot be mandatory. That has

clearly failed. It has to be voluntary. There are some countries

who are willing to do so, like Germany and Sweden. But in the end,

if we are going to help each other, we have to do it on a voluntary

basis. Some countries have difficulties accept an them. Let's

do it together. Given the million who arrived last year into Europe,

and given the political atmosphere across Europe today, changing

atmosphere even in countries like Germany, do you seriously think

there will be a programme any time soon to take hundreds of thousands

of Syrian refugees from your country direct, and voluntarily take them

into the EU. Do you seriously think that is going to happen? It is

possible. If we can do it in an orderly fashion and showed EU we

stemming the flow of regular migrants coming to the EU, and show

that we are doing it in a way the streamlining is done on a number, I

think this can be done. It's not something that we don't expect other

countries to join in. If there is a leader, like Germany and other

countries that start this programme, others will maybe feel ashamed about

this and join in. We need solidarity, and we don't see it. You

are Turkey's man in Brussels. You monitor mood and political

atmosphere across Europe. Are you picking up on the degree to which,

across Europe's capitals, the politics of this right now is to

find a way to stop more migrants and refugees getting in, rather than

volunteering to take hundreds of thousands to wreck from Turkey? I

have seen the panic and chaos, and it is surprising how the EU has

reacted to it. They cannot handle 1 million in the union, that is

release uprising. If we can find a way together, we can make it work.

The irony is that it is up to us to stop the flow. It's up to us to save

the EE, protect the U. That is ironic, after ignoring us for the

last ten years. Now they have remembered us. The migration

commissioner said that unless we can stem the flow, and of course that

requires Turkey's cooperation, the EU, in his words, is facing

disaster. Does Turkey feel any sense of responsibility for this crisis,

this political meltdown, this looming disaster that the EU is

talking about? We do not feel any responsibility at all. We've been

dealing it -- with it for the last few years on our own. If the back to

Mac cannot handle this together, it means that the 28th in the project

has not been working. They have to find a way to be together. For the

28 to act together, when a crisis like this happens, and we are not

seeing that. The irony is that we have two help the EU on this. If you

think that the EU is so useless, why are you sitting there as an

ambassador who wants to join it? We still believe that the EU is value

-based, and I'm sure they will come out of this crisis. They have to

come out of the crisis and be stronger. We need a strong, sturdy

EU that is value -based. If that does not happen and we see a

disaster, we will think twice. Europeans are thinking twice about

the specific detail of the current negotiations on Turkish accession. A

general point, one of the things you have required from the EU is part of

the deal, money and other things you have wanted to help you deliver your

side of any bargain on migration, you want freezer free travel for

Turks across -- Visa free travel for Turks across the EU. One of the most

senior politicians in Angela Merkel's party said they thought it

was a terrible idea, because even more people might abuse the system

for migrating into Europe. One example, amongst the 1 million we

have counted coming into the EU, 40% are Syrians and others are Iraqis or

other nationalities, but there are no Turks at all. There should be no

fear of Turks rushing into the EU. We have developed quite highly

lately, and we believe we deserve a Visa free regime. We have a deal

concerning a readmission agreement, which will be starting in June, and

if it is working, and we will show it will be working, after that, we

will see if the EU delivers on its promises. If they don't, we will

terminate the readmission agreement. We believe that the EU has nothing

to fear from us. The readmission agreement is agreeing to take the

third-party migrants back into Turkey if they came into Turkey in

the first place. That is another threat you are making. No, it isn't.

If we abide by our commitments and do everything necessary, and then we

face another political obstacle that we have faced in the past, what else

to we have in our hands? That's what we always told them. We abide by the

rules, by our commitments, and if you don't do it, we will have to

terminate that. It is not a threat. Some might see it as a threat. One

more specific point. My last question on the migration specifics.

You say we are cooperating and we are keeping our side of the bargain.

We heard yesterday from Nato naval commanders that they were not

getting permission to operate this new Nato monitoring operation in the

Aegean Sea, that they did not have permission to enter Turkish waters.

Not at all. The deal was that we would provide surveillance and

intelligence gathering, so if they see a vessel leaving Turkey and

going into territorial waters, they will inform the Turkish coast guard.

If they reach the Greek waters, they will inform the Greek coastguard.

Therefore, surveillance and intelligence. Will you let them into

your territorial waters? Of course. Let's talk about your government's

overarching policy on Syria. If you look at the way the key players in

the Serie A crisis are looking at Turkey today, Turkey does look

pretty isolated. Would you agree with that? We are on the same page

in many issues. There is some kinds of differences on certain

approaches. We always want a peaceful solution, a diplomatic

solution, but it is getting harder and harder. There are too many

countries involved. We hope that the ceasefire holds. It appears to be

just about holding, but your government appears to have reserved

the right to attack as and when necessary the Turkish Syrian militia

force the Y PG. The Y PG is maintaining the secession of fire.

Wide you think it would still be legitimate for you to attack them?

It is a partial ceasefire. It doesn't cover the whole country. So

if some are there, they can be attacked. The YPG is not seen as a

terrorist organisation. They are seen as a key part of the offensive

against so-called Islamic State. You cannot have a good terrorist

organisation. Just because they are fighting Daesh, doesn't mean they

are better than the others. They are trying to extend their territory

into Arab land and they are abusing the situation. Of course, the US and

others are saying that if they fight Daesh, they are on the good side.

I can tell you that Vice President Joe Biden said that the PKK and YPG

different things. That's what he said. That is his interpretation. On

the ground, we see bombings in our country and we know where it is

coming from. That's the difference we have. We see it as a terrorist

organisation. It seems your government, and there are

substantial Turkish forces close to the Syrian border, your government

is still contemplating a move inside Syrian territory. President Erdogan

said recently that he will not allow the creation of any sort of northern

Syrian Kurdish entity as he allowed a Iraqi Kurdish entity. How far are

you willing to go? We have had attacks on our side of the border

from the YPG and others. So they are there for defensive purposes. Who

knows what will happen in the future and who will attack you. All these

things have changed in the past and may in the future. A senior rush all

-- Russian official said that there was a very real possibility, given

the stance of your government, they conflict between Russia and Turkey

in northern Syria. That is a pretty dangerous thing to say. We do not

want that at all. Ever since we shot down a Russian warplanes we tried to

diffuse the situation, but we are not getting any response from the

other side. This is unfortunate. We do not want any conflict with any

neighbouring country, so those kinds of words are not helpful. The

Russians, it in the form of the Foreign Minister yesterday, asked,

or demanded, that Turkey seal its border with Syria to stop what the

Russians say our continued arms supplies going to what the Russians

called terrorists coming from Turkish territory going into Syria.

Are you prepared to stop that and seal the border? 1-person's

terrorist is another's freedom fighter. So is that a no? The

Russians of their, trying to prop up the regime, and they see things

quite different league to us that that's quite differently to us. With

regards to sealing the border, we have to keep it open so we can

prevent the Syrians are escaping. When you observe Turkey's political

scene today, do you find that some of the things your government is

doing make it very difficult for you as a career,, to make Turkey's case

for membership of the European Union? We have been in discussion

with the EU on many issues. There are many chapters closed for

political reasons. Chapters with regards to legal rights and so on.

We need the EU together. We need to talk about these issues. The more we

can engage with the EU, the more we have a better situation. We are

always going form or reforms. The latest EU report in November said

that the Turkish pace of reform has slowed. There has been backsliding

on things like independence on the judiciary. A host of journalists and

writers have been locked up. These are things that the European Union

finds deeply problematic about what your government is doing today. We

know the reports. We do not agree with what they say. The judicial

system is working. Maybe slowly, but it is working. We try to have more

reforms. But up until recently we were doing it together with the EU.

But the EU distance itself for a long time. Now we are coming back

together and we hope we can continue the reforms. I don't agree with a

lot of things that are written there. It is a different

interpretation. When you hear of things like 18 academics, respected

professors, being charged and accused of treachery because of a

petition they signed expressing concern about military abuses in

south-east Turkey in the war against the PKK, you send a message back to

Ankara saying, this isn't helping me and it isn't helping our case in

Europe? Turkey is aware what is going on in the EU and the press.

Everything is relayed back to them. There is a judicial system that is

working. The prosecutor takes his messages. He has maybe accused

people of some things, but in court, things are handled there. There is a

system that works. Maybe not as fast as one would want, but it does work.

People in Turkey are aware of what is going on, and the interpretation

of the EU towards my country. You have devoted decades of your life to

Turkey's case for membership of the EU. Do you think it will happen in

your lifetime? Sometimes we joke it will happen during my grandchild's

lifetime. Joking aside, our membership can only happen if things

change, if the treaty is change, the way that the EU looks at it. It is a

matter -- a matter of interest. Past enlargement have happened due to an

interest situation. If interests converge, it could happen. The most

important thing for us is to keep close, to be together as much as

possible, and we believe that if we reach the same levels as the EU,

that's good enough for us. The journey is as important as the end

result. In the end, we will see how the EU actually develops. Ambassador

Selim Yenel, we have two end there. Thank you very much for being on

HARDtalk. Thank you. We really had it all today on the

weather front. Rain, sleet, hail, thunder and icy wind. Tomorrow will

feel less cold, the winds will be lighter, and