Dominic Grieve MP - Chairman, Intelligence and Security Committee (UK) HARDtalk


Dominic Grieve MP - Chairman, Intelligence and Security Committee (UK)

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Now on BBC News it's time for Hardtalk.

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Welcome to HARDtalk I am Stephen Sackur. No one expects the sickening

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suicide bomb attacks in Brussels to be the final operation mounted by

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the so-called Islamic State movement on European soil. The President of

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France as saying that Europe is now at war. So what are the most useful

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weapons at disposals. My guess is Dominic Grieve who is now the

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chairman of the UK Parliament of intelligence and Security committee.

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Can Europe be secure and free? Dominic Grieve, welcome to HARDtalk.

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Thank you. Europe seems to be in a very difficult place. Intensely

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aware of the threat posed by the Islamic State group, but seemingly

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unable to root it out. It is a real problem and I think we are

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collectively facing a serious crisis. We've seen it go on for some

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time. In the region around Europe, whether it is Russia or damage to

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the Middle East, is seriously disturbed and there are threats to

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peace. So there is no doubt that we need to work together in order to

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tackle those problems and we also have to accept that the problems of

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terrorism are not in your ball to simple solutions. -- mitigated by.

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We need to preserve our democratic values and make sure that nothing

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that we do under minds, because this is a value battle and we take

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sensible steps to protect ourselves and the best way of doing that, I

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have very little doubt, is by reinforcing the cooperation between

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different countries. I want to talk about a lot of the issues that you

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put together their, one by one, and want to start with the most simple

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stick one out of the way -- simplistic. You are allowed to see a

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lot more secret documentation and I want your assessment of just how

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little, in a sense, we know about the nature of the Islamic State and

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associated threats in this country and across Europe today. Clearly

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there are unknown unknowns. We don't know we don't know. But we have a

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picture of what is going on. Islamic State has been using its base as a

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place from which to foment terrorism. And they are doing that

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by radicalising or calling upon individuals living in Western

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societies in Western Europe to take action. So that is the point. We

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clearly know about these areas and the degree to which this so-called

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caliphate has established a presence in Syria and Iraq. And what we don't

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know, and the Belgians seem to be in -- unable to penetrate, is a network

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of activists, followers and supervises of these people inside

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Europe's eager cities and most important cities like Brussels and

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Paris. I do not have any specialist knowledge as to what is happening in

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Brussels. Looking at it from a United Kingdom angle I think that

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our security services are able to build up a picture of the extent of

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radicalisation and who might be a threat. But that is not to say that

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it can never be 100% picture. There is always the possibility of

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somebody slipping through the net and that could be here or Brussels.

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That is why I am a wary of being critical of other intelligence

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services in foreign countries. But that the more co-ordinated we are,

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the more we share information the more likely we will pick up threats

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before they translate into action. The Home Secretary here in the UK

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has said there is 14 plots that have happened on UK soil since the start

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of 2014. Thankfully they have been thwarted but that does suggest that

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there are is a significant number of people committed to extremist

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violence in our country. Can you put any number on that and give me a a

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sense of the scale that you were hearing? I did the guy can put a

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number on that. We're not talking about thousands of people. Only a

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very small number of people if they are statistically dedicated to this

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can cause mayhem. There are not thousands of people living in

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British society who wish to commit acts of violence against their

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fellow citizens. That is not to say that the numbers are tiny, they are

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not. Consistently suggestions by the police that we are talking of the

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high hundreds. And I've no reason to think that that is wrong. And

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clearly, that is not just the individuals who might be doing

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things but also the people who are immediately around them or have

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knowledge of what they are doing. We mustn't exaggerate the problem,

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either. The vast majority of Muslims living in the United Kingdom are

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entirely peaceful, desire to integrate an absolutely poor what is

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going on. That is an important point and the vast majority of refugees

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and migrants who are coming out of Syria are also seeking peace in

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their family. But there is an issue when one talks about the people

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coming out of Syria and whether in the midst of that flow of migrants

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they could also the extremist posing as dangerous. Poland have said they

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are not going to take any quota no longer prepared to take any of the

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searing refugees to be distributed through the European Union. Does

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that seem to you to be a sensible response? I'm not sure it

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necessarily ears because I don't think that the vast majority of

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refugees fleeing Syria have any evil intent towards the countries in

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which they are flaying -- fleeing. One of the bombers was able to

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travel through Europe and now we know that the Turkish born of one

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individual who came out of Syria, was picked up by the Turkish people

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and then went to Holland and Belgium and both government were warned by

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the Turkish that this man was a potential danger and they did

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nothing about it and he was involved in the bombing in Brussels. So I

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understand and that would appear to be a failure of intelligence sharing

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or acting on intelligence. It does not concern the United Kingdom so

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I've only seen what I've read in the media on that. But I think it is

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important to emphasise that the majority of people that we have had

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in this country have been self radicalising. That is to say they

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are second or third generation immigrants in this country, they've

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not come out of the flow from Syria. The point I'm trying to make

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that to saddle again into 1's head that we've stopped the flow from

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Syria and suddenly our problems are going to go away, I don't think that

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that is correct. As far as one can make out, the cells that have been

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active in France and Belgium appears to be individuals are Moroccan

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origin who have in fact been settled as families in Western Europe the

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sometime. That is not to say that some of them may have come from

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Syria. Bad is also possible. But it highlights the point that to get

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into 1's mind the idea that people fleeing Syria because many of them

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might be terrorists, there is no evidence to sustain that. Let us

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look around because early you made the point of saying that the vast

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majority of Muslims who live in communities in the United Kingdom,

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are again, peace loving people who are nothing but security for

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themselves and their family. Bart, the fact is, as you've just alluded

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to, when we have seen examples of terrorist activity, they've been

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extremist who found cover inside Muslim communities inside the United

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Kingdom. -- but. We made the point that as far as she was concerned,

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she do not consider that the Muslim community in United Kingdom were

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wanting in coming forward to provide information where they feared that

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people were involved with them. Said the French intelligence division has

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said that we are talking about gorilla terrorism here in Europe and

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we're talking about publishing that is complicit. -- so. They talk about

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structural invulnerability. It is abundantly clear that there are

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individuals in this country who wish us harm and I also entirely accept

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that around and there will be others who may be on the way to

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radicalisation or may just turn a blind eye or may have extreme

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views, who may in fact provide some the sustenance that surrounds these

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groups. But I think, in reality, rather a small number of people

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outside of that is the vast, broad swathe of Muslims living in the

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United Kingdom who are wholly removed from this. Is the onus upon

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them to engage more with the authorities to safeguard against the

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activities of this very small number of extremists? There is an onus on

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them and an onus on all of our. There is the wider issue of

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integration behind this. I'm currently chairing a commission says

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citizens UK on the participation to Muslims in the public life. We know

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there are difficulties in respect of this. And we know, and this is not

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just one way that they operate, they operate both ways. Integrating and

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the aggression of summer was an community is into the United Kingdom

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has undoubtedly proved challenging. -- integrating and integration. I'm

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thinking of Donald Trump and his approach is to forget about being

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politically correct any more and forget about this nonsense of

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treading on peoples toes and committed to full equality on

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everything, and he says for a start, were not going to let them travel

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from now on and we're going to be much, much tougher in the way of the

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deal with these communities. These are simplistic absurdities and they

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are extremely damaging and corrosive. They're going to do

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nothing to solving some of the longer term problems. Two things

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that need to be done is tackling the terrorists, in a sense and that if

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the government's prevent strategy. And also, to reinforce the values of

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what a liberal democratic and free society which is pluralistic and

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multicultural should be trying to achieve. Lots of people respond

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positively to that, but we as politicians, and this is right

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across the mainstream, undoubtedly there is a duty on asked to do

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more, and that I've always considered to be one of the most

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important things and priorities for us all. But us talk more about the

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European Union and in this conversation we made a point of

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differentiating between Britain and France and Belgium as we've been

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talking about. Do you think the European Union and its very security

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and intelligence agencies in hands or hinder the security of your? --

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enhance the security of Europe? They are talking about the Schengen

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arrangement which does not concern us directly and removing the border

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control. They're saying that there are no border controls. Whether they

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are wise to continue with that, in the face of the current level of

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terrorism is a debate to them. The former head of Interpol says that

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the Schengen and the freedom of movement that we have discussed,

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borderless travel, it is like hanging a sign welcoming terrorists

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into Europe. But the question you asked me is relating to our own

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security here. We are not affected by that directly because we're not

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part of Schengen. Clearly, if our partners wish to restore border

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controls, and indeed, some of them have, it looks as if it may well

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have to be modified. I entirely accept that if you don't have border

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controls and the ability to have terraced to move from France to

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Hungary and three Germany, there's got to be nothing that is there to

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pick up those movements. That is one of the reasons that the United

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Kingdom picked that up. If we no longer had these passports and it

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was quite clear that we were distinct territorial, completely

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distinct from the European Union. I find it difficult to see where the

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advantage would lie, at the moment, we can check passports of anybody

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coming into this country. The Home Secretary, even if it is in a

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European Union national can prevent someone coming in if she has

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credible evidence of that person may be involved in extremism or

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terrorism, and Dean to be a person who is not conducive to the public

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good. We can exclude such people. Ultimately, what Europe offers us is

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a cooperation mechanism through policing and the prosecutors. The

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former European chief says it is essentially wooed -- essentially

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useless. And those memo states are extremely weak.

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I certainly agree that some of the member states will have weak

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security, there are certainly countries without the tradition of

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having security. Are we going to share intelligence with them?

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Leakey: there he said. With some it would be difficult to share

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intelligence but by participating in the European structures, we can set

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out to try to improve their performance. But where I think Sir

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Richard may be wrong is that he retired from the intelligence world

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in 2004 and I do think that in the intervening period there have been

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quite a lot of progress in the respect of data and intelligence

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sharing and policing levels across the European Union. Really? You

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learn what happened between the Belgians and the French after the

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Bataclan and other attacks in November of last year. You know how

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poor the cooperation was. Why do you say that you are now confident this

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really works on a pan-European scale? I am saying it is better than

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not having it which is the point. The question you asked me is if we

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were better off out and the answer is, how would withdrawing from the

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European Union improve our national security? And I have to say I simply

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do not see. That is not to say that the European systems we operate

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under our perfect or could not do with improvement. We do a lot of

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intelligence sharing with our European partners, our key partners.

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We do a lot more with the English-speaking world, the

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so-called five eyes ultimate level of intelligence sharing for the UK

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government involves the United States, Canada .com Australia and

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New Zealand. That sends a very clear message about who we in the UK

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believe we can really trust. I think that is a slightly simplistic

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approach to the issue. There is no doubt that our five eyes partners

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are a long, trusted and very well ordered relationship. It is very

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important for our national security and for global security. But when it

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comes to the issue of how do we tackle terrorist cells which may be

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across the European Union, it is abundantly clear that our closest

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cooperation will be with those countries which are most directly

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affected and with those countries of the European area which can best

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provide us with assistance. I know on the whole you are a fan of

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European institutions. The Belgian Prime Minister now says it is time

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for European CIA, a truly integrated intelligence agency for the European

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Union. Would you go that far? I think that might prevent some

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problems in relation to what you share. So I don't necessarily think

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that is the solution. As I say, I certainly don't think that all is

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perfect. It isn't. But there are mechanisms for sharing policing

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information which is vital to our national security. The chief

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Commissioner of police for the Metropolis have said so, everything

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I know about this suggests it is of great importance and intelligence

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sharing is a rather different issue. That is often done on a bilateral

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level, I am sure. At the mechanisms within the European Union are

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helpful to our cooperation. For example, there is a committee that

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meets regularly with heads of internal security services including

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MI5. But it is telling that Britain is now intent on going further than

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the European Union appears to be ready to go, at least before the

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Brussels bombs, in terms of surveillance. Electronic mass

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surveillance. You have been intimately involved in this debate

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in the United Kingdom, about exactly how far the government should push

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its investigator he powers, legislation. Given the security

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situation we have talked about today, you believe the government

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has got the balance right with its insistence there must be sweeping

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new electronic surveillance powers? The committee of which I am a

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chairman was absolutely clear in its early report for the last election

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and its follow-up report that the powers that the government is

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seeking to set out in the legislation, the area as it wishes

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to cover, are necessary and proportionate to maintaining our

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national security. And it is wrong to think that what it is seeking to

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do is to provide an ability of general surveillance, of

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communications, to our agencies, in particular GCHQ. This is utterly

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removed from reality, it is not what GCHQ does or intends to do and if

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they were to do it... But they do store the records of ordinary people

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for up to a year? The question is about the capability of the agencies

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to be able to access important data if they need it. That is entirely

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different thing from carrying out mass surveillance the population

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because that is not what they are doing. But if the data is not

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available for them to look at an search, then they can't use it. What

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about Edward Snowden and everything he revealed about the extent of

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surveillance that the public will be: -- will be satisfied with this?

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You said not long ago given the background of this, the allegations

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made by Edward Snowden, you said it is surprising that the protection of

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people's privacy, enshrined in other legislation doesn't feature more

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prominently in this draft legislation. We certainly put

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forward our view that it would have been better to have an overarching

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privacy clause within the legislation. And will you still push

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for that? I very much hope that the government will respond positively

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to what we have suggested. As I said when I addressed the house in the

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second reading of this legislation when it first came before

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Parliament, one has got to be careful. Some of it may have a

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slightly symbolic aspect to it but I do think it overarching privacy

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clause in the view of the committee would be better dealt with in this

:21:26.:21:29.

legislation but that is an entirely different thing from saying that the

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legislation, in terms of the areas of power that the government wants

:21:34.:21:39.

to take, isn't needed. It is. And in the end what is really important is

:21:40.:21:43.

who decides when these powers can be assumed by the government. Now there

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has been a lot of debate about the extent of the judicial lock that is

:21:47.:21:51.

put upon these powers. Do you believe that now, the judiciary and

:21:52.:21:57.

the judicial authority is sufficient to ensure that ministers cannot ride

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roughshod over privacy? The shift that has put forward about having a

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double lock mechanism over the majority of these powers is a very

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significant change and it does give me great confidence that the ability

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of a judge to review the ministerial decision of granting a war and

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provides extremely important safeguard to these powers being

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abused. We pressed this very... I personally pressed this very hard

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and I'm very pleased to see it in legislation. Isn't there something

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missing from all of this debate about how Europe's best response to

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the security threat by jihadi extremists? In the end, as long as

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there is this war in Syria, as long as the Jihadis are making new

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inroads in countries like Libya, there is no way that we can

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extinguish the threat in Europe, that is the truth isn't it? Guess it

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is. We don't have 100% security. Nor do we have a coherent policy in

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Syria or Libya. There is no doubt that there are issues over what

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Western policy may be in Syria or Libya. Idlib yeah we recently signed

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up to providing much greater help to the new government, the new national

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government, which is recognise by the United Nations. I am very

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pleased to see that. And in Syria, there is a strategy but I have to

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say it is one that has proved very challenging to implement partly

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because of the attitude of Russia and the vote that took place in the

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House of Parliament over whether we should take any military action to

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restrain the worst excesses of Bashar al-Assad were undertaken step

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that we are where we are and I have to say I do worry. I look at the

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state of the Middle East and the anxiety is that if you deal with one

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problem, another is going to surface. The Middle East is in a

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state of severe chaos. There are some countries that are surviving,

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many of them are descending into a very dark place and that is going to

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present challenges for us. We are on their doorstep. So when Francois

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Hollande said this was a war that had no end, do you agree? History

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shows that periods of great disturbance of this kind will come

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to an end eventually but I don't think they will come to an end

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quickly. Dominic Grieve, we have to and write there but thank you for

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being on HARDtalk -- we have to end right there.

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