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Now on BBC News it's time for Hardtalk. | :00:00. | :00:12. | |
Welcome to HARDtalk I am Stephen Sackur. No one expects the sickening | :00:13. | :00:19. | |
suicide bomb attacks in Brussels to be the final operation mounted by | :00:20. | :00:22. | |
the so-called Islamic State movement on European soil. The President of | :00:23. | :00:28. | |
France as saying that Europe is now at war. So what are the most useful | :00:29. | :00:41. | |
weapons at disposals. My guess is Dominic Grieve who is now the | :00:42. | :00:44. | |
chairman of the UK Parliament of intelligence and Security committee. | :00:45. | :00:44. | |
Can Europe be secure and free? Dominic Grieve, welcome to HARDtalk. | :00:45. | :01:22. | |
Thank you. Europe seems to be in a very difficult place. Intensely | :01:23. | :01:28. | |
aware of the threat posed by the Islamic State group, but seemingly | :01:29. | :01:34. | |
unable to root it out. It is a real problem and I think we are | :01:35. | :01:37. | |
collectively facing a serious crisis. We've seen it go on for some | :01:38. | :01:43. | |
time. In the region around Europe, whether it is Russia or damage to | :01:44. | :01:47. | |
the Middle East, is seriously disturbed and there are threats to | :01:48. | :01:51. | |
peace. So there is no doubt that we need to work together in order to | :01:52. | :01:55. | |
tackle those problems and we also have to accept that the problems of | :01:56. | :01:59. | |
terrorism are not in your ball to simple solutions. -- mitigated by. | :02:00. | :02:11. | |
We need to preserve our democratic values and make sure that nothing | :02:12. | :02:17. | |
that we do under minds, because this is a value battle and we take | :02:18. | :02:21. | |
sensible steps to protect ourselves and the best way of doing that, I | :02:22. | :02:26. | |
have very little doubt, is by reinforcing the cooperation between | :02:27. | :02:30. | |
different countries. I want to talk about a lot of the issues that you | :02:31. | :02:34. | |
put together their, one by one, and want to start with the most simple | :02:35. | :02:40. | |
stick one out of the way -- simplistic. You are allowed to see a | :02:41. | :02:45. | |
lot more secret documentation and I want your assessment of just how | :02:46. | :02:53. | |
little, in a sense, we know about the nature of the Islamic State and | :02:54. | :02:58. | |
associated threats in this country and across Europe today. Clearly | :02:59. | :03:08. | |
there are unknown unknowns. We don't know we don't know. But we have a | :03:09. | :03:16. | |
picture of what is going on. Islamic State has been using its base as a | :03:17. | :03:21. | |
place from which to foment terrorism. And they are doing that | :03:22. | :03:27. | |
by radicalising or calling upon individuals living in Western | :03:28. | :03:31. | |
societies in Western Europe to take action. So that is the point. We | :03:32. | :03:37. | |
clearly know about these areas and the degree to which this so-called | :03:38. | :03:43. | |
caliphate has established a presence in Syria and Iraq. And what we don't | :03:44. | :03:53. | |
know, and the Belgians seem to be in -- unable to penetrate, is a network | :03:54. | :03:57. | |
of activists, followers and supervises of these people inside | :03:58. | :04:03. | |
Europe's eager cities and most important cities like Brussels and | :04:04. | :04:09. | |
Paris. I do not have any specialist knowledge as to what is happening in | :04:10. | :04:12. | |
Brussels. Looking at it from a United Kingdom angle I think that | :04:13. | :04:17. | |
our security services are able to build up a picture of the extent of | :04:18. | :04:22. | |
radicalisation and who might be a threat. But that is not to say that | :04:23. | :04:27. | |
it can never be 100% picture. There is always the possibility of | :04:28. | :04:32. | |
somebody slipping through the net and that could be here or Brussels. | :04:33. | :04:37. | |
That is why I am a wary of being critical of other intelligence | :04:38. | :04:42. | |
services in foreign countries. But that the more co-ordinated we are, | :04:43. | :04:47. | |
the more we share information the more likely we will pick up threats | :04:48. | :04:50. | |
before they translate into action. The Home Secretary here in the UK | :04:51. | :04:56. | |
has said there is 14 plots that have happened on UK soil since the start | :04:57. | :05:02. | |
of 2014. Thankfully they have been thwarted but that does suggest that | :05:03. | :05:07. | |
there are is a significant number of people committed to extremist | :05:08. | :05:11. | |
violence in our country. Can you put any number on that and give me a a | :05:12. | :05:17. | |
sense of the scale that you were hearing? I did the guy can put a | :05:18. | :05:20. | |
number on that. We're not talking about thousands of people. Only a | :05:21. | :05:24. | |
very small number of people if they are statistically dedicated to this | :05:25. | :05:33. | |
can cause mayhem. There are not thousands of people living in | :05:34. | :05:35. | |
British society who wish to commit acts of violence against their | :05:36. | :05:39. | |
fellow citizens. That is not to say that the numbers are tiny, they are | :05:40. | :05:43. | |
not. Consistently suggestions by the police that we are talking of the | :05:44. | :05:49. | |
high hundreds. And I've no reason to think that that is wrong. And | :05:50. | :05:53. | |
clearly, that is not just the individuals who might be doing | :05:54. | :05:56. | |
things but also the people who are immediately around them or have | :05:57. | :06:00. | |
knowledge of what they are doing. We mustn't exaggerate the problem, | :06:01. | :06:04. | |
either. The vast majority of Muslims living in the United Kingdom are | :06:05. | :06:10. | |
entirely peaceful, desire to integrate an absolutely poor what is | :06:11. | :06:13. | |
going on. That is an important point and the vast majority of refugees | :06:14. | :06:18. | |
and migrants who are coming out of Syria are also seeking peace in | :06:19. | :06:25. | |
their family. But there is an issue when one talks about the people | :06:26. | :06:29. | |
coming out of Syria and whether in the midst of that flow of migrants | :06:30. | :06:39. | |
they could also the extremist posing as dangerous. Poland have said they | :06:40. | :06:44. | |
are not going to take any quota no longer prepared to take any of the | :06:45. | :06:49. | |
searing refugees to be distributed through the European Union. Does | :06:50. | :06:55. | |
that seem to you to be a sensible response? I'm not sure it | :06:56. | :07:00. | |
necessarily ears because I don't think that the vast majority of | :07:01. | :07:04. | |
refugees fleeing Syria have any evil intent towards the countries in | :07:05. | :07:22. | |
which they are flaying -- fleeing. One of the bombers was able to | :07:23. | :07:28. | |
travel through Europe and now we know that the Turkish born of one | :07:29. | :07:30. | |
individual who came out of Syria, was picked up by the Turkish people | :07:31. | :07:36. | |
and then went to Holland and Belgium and both government were warned by | :07:37. | :07:40. | |
the Turkish that this man was a potential danger and they did | :07:41. | :07:43. | |
nothing about it and he was involved in the bombing in Brussels. So I | :07:44. | :07:49. | |
understand and that would appear to be a failure of intelligence sharing | :07:50. | :07:52. | |
or acting on intelligence. It does not concern the United Kingdom so | :07:53. | :07:56. | |
I've only seen what I've read in the media on that. But I think it is | :07:57. | :08:00. | |
important to emphasise that the majority of people that we have had | :08:01. | :08:03. | |
in this country have been self radicalising. That is to say they | :08:04. | :08:06. | |
are second or third generation immigrants in this country, they've | :08:07. | :08:10. | |
not come out of the flow from Syria. The point I'm trying to make | :08:11. | :08:15. | |
that to saddle again into 1's head that we've stopped the flow from | :08:16. | :08:18. | |
Syria and suddenly our problems are going to go away, I don't think that | :08:19. | :08:24. | |
that is correct. As far as one can make out, the cells that have been | :08:25. | :08:31. | |
active in France and Belgium appears to be individuals are Moroccan | :08:32. | :08:34. | |
origin who have in fact been settled as families in Western Europe the | :08:35. | :08:38. | |
sometime. That is not to say that some of them may have come from | :08:39. | :08:43. | |
Syria. Bad is also possible. But it highlights the point that to get | :08:44. | :08:46. | |
into 1's mind the idea that people fleeing Syria because many of them | :08:47. | :08:56. | |
might be terrorists, there is no evidence to sustain that. Let us | :08:57. | :09:00. | |
look around because early you made the point of saying that the vast | :09:01. | :09:03. | |
majority of Muslims who live in communities in the United Kingdom, | :09:04. | :09:08. | |
are again, peace loving people who are nothing but security for | :09:09. | :09:12. | |
themselves and their family. Bart, the fact is, as you've just alluded | :09:13. | :09:18. | |
to, when we have seen examples of terrorist activity, they've been | :09:19. | :09:23. | |
extremist who found cover inside Muslim communities inside the United | :09:24. | :09:37. | |
Kingdom. -- but. We made the point that as far as she was concerned, | :09:38. | :09:41. | |
she do not consider that the Muslim community in United Kingdom were | :09:42. | :09:48. | |
wanting in coming forward to provide information where they feared that | :09:49. | :09:53. | |
people were involved with them. Said the French intelligence division has | :09:54. | :09:57. | |
said that we are talking about gorilla terrorism here in Europe and | :09:58. | :10:02. | |
we're talking about publishing that is complicit. -- so. They talk about | :10:03. | :10:15. | |
structural invulnerability. It is abundantly clear that there are | :10:16. | :10:19. | |
individuals in this country who wish us harm and I also entirely accept | :10:20. | :10:22. | |
that around and there will be others who may be on the way to | :10:23. | :10:26. | |
radicalisation or may just turn a blind eye or may have extreme | :10:27. | :10:31. | |
views, who may in fact provide some the sustenance that surrounds these | :10:32. | :10:37. | |
groups. But I think, in reality, rather a small number of people | :10:38. | :10:41. | |
outside of that is the vast, broad swathe of Muslims living in the | :10:42. | :10:45. | |
United Kingdom who are wholly removed from this. Is the onus upon | :10:46. | :10:57. | |
them to engage more with the authorities to safeguard against the | :10:58. | :11:02. | |
activities of this very small number of extremists? There is an onus on | :11:03. | :11:08. | |
them and an onus on all of our. There is the wider issue of | :11:09. | :11:12. | |
integration behind this. I'm currently chairing a commission says | :11:13. | :11:16. | |
citizens UK on the participation to Muslims in the public life. We know | :11:17. | :11:20. | |
there are difficulties in respect of this. And we know, and this is not | :11:21. | :11:25. | |
just one way that they operate, they operate both ways. Integrating and | :11:26. | :11:31. | |
the aggression of summer was an community is into the United Kingdom | :11:32. | :11:40. | |
has undoubtedly proved challenging. -- integrating and integration. I'm | :11:41. | :11:47. | |
thinking of Donald Trump and his approach is to forget about being | :11:48. | :11:51. | |
politically correct any more and forget about this nonsense of | :11:52. | :11:54. | |
treading on peoples toes and committed to full equality on | :11:55. | :11:59. | |
everything, and he says for a start, were not going to let them travel | :12:00. | :12:03. | |
from now on and we're going to be much, much tougher in the way of the | :12:04. | :12:08. | |
deal with these communities. These are simplistic absurdities and they | :12:09. | :12:12. | |
are extremely damaging and corrosive. They're going to do | :12:13. | :12:16. | |
nothing to solving some of the longer term problems. Two things | :12:17. | :12:21. | |
that need to be done is tackling the terrorists, in a sense and that if | :12:22. | :12:26. | |
the government's prevent strategy. And also, to reinforce the values of | :12:27. | :12:33. | |
what a liberal democratic and free society which is pluralistic and | :12:34. | :12:36. | |
multicultural should be trying to achieve. Lots of people respond | :12:37. | :12:42. | |
positively to that, but we as politicians, and this is right | :12:43. | :12:45. | |
across the mainstream, undoubtedly there is a duty on asked to do | :12:46. | :12:49. | |
more, and that I've always considered to be one of the most | :12:50. | :12:52. | |
important things and priorities for us all. But us talk more about the | :12:53. | :12:56. | |
European Union and in this conversation we made a point of | :12:57. | :12:59. | |
differentiating between Britain and France and Belgium as we've been | :13:00. | :13:03. | |
talking about. Do you think the European Union and its very security | :13:04. | :13:07. | |
and intelligence agencies in hands or hinder the security of your? -- | :13:08. | :13:25. | |
enhance the security of Europe? They are talking about the Schengen | :13:26. | :13:28. | |
arrangement which does not concern us directly and removing the border | :13:29. | :13:35. | |
control. They're saying that there are no border controls. Whether they | :13:36. | :13:41. | |
are wise to continue with that, in the face of the current level of | :13:42. | :13:46. | |
terrorism is a debate to them. The former head of Interpol says that | :13:47. | :13:50. | |
the Schengen and the freedom of movement that we have discussed, | :13:51. | :13:52. | |
borderless travel, it is like hanging a sign welcoming terrorists | :13:53. | :13:58. | |
into Europe. But the question you asked me is relating to our own | :13:59. | :14:02. | |
security here. We are not affected by that directly because we're not | :14:03. | :14:07. | |
part of Schengen. Clearly, if our partners wish to restore border | :14:08. | :14:10. | |
controls, and indeed, some of them have, it looks as if it may well | :14:11. | :14:18. | |
have to be modified. I entirely accept that if you don't have border | :14:19. | :14:20. | |
controls and the ability to have terraced to move from France to | :14:21. | :14:25. | |
Hungary and three Germany, there's got to be nothing that is there to | :14:26. | :14:28. | |
pick up those movements. That is one of the reasons that the United | :14:29. | :14:32. | |
Kingdom picked that up. If we no longer had these passports and it | :14:33. | :14:35. | |
was quite clear that we were distinct territorial, completely | :14:36. | :14:39. | |
distinct from the European Union. I find it difficult to see where the | :14:40. | :14:44. | |
advantage would lie, at the moment, we can check passports of anybody | :14:45. | :14:48. | |
coming into this country. The Home Secretary, even if it is in a | :14:49. | :14:53. | |
European Union national can prevent someone coming in if she has | :14:54. | :14:55. | |
credible evidence of that person may be involved in extremism or | :14:56. | :14:59. | |
terrorism, and Dean to be a person who is not conducive to the public | :15:00. | :15:10. | |
good. We can exclude such people. Ultimately, what Europe offers us is | :15:11. | :15:16. | |
a cooperation mechanism through policing and the prosecutors. The | :15:17. | :15:23. | |
former European chief says it is essentially wooed -- essentially | :15:24. | :15:32. | |
useless. And those memo states are extremely weak. | :15:33. | :15:37. | |
I certainly agree that some of the member states will have weak | :15:38. | :15:41. | |
security, there are certainly countries without the tradition of | :15:42. | :15:48. | |
having security. Are we going to share intelligence with them? | :15:49. | :15:52. | |
Leakey: there he said. With some it would be difficult to share | :15:53. | :15:55. | |
intelligence but by participating in the European structures, we can set | :15:56. | :15:59. | |
out to try to improve their performance. But where I think Sir | :16:00. | :16:03. | |
Richard may be wrong is that he retired from the intelligence world | :16:04. | :16:08. | |
in 2004 and I do think that in the intervening period there have been | :16:09. | :16:12. | |
quite a lot of progress in the respect of data and intelligence | :16:13. | :16:16. | |
sharing and policing levels across the European Union. Really? You | :16:17. | :16:19. | |
learn what happened between the Belgians and the French after the | :16:20. | :16:23. | |
Bataclan and other attacks in November of last year. You know how | :16:24. | :16:27. | |
poor the cooperation was. Why do you say that you are now confident this | :16:28. | :16:30. | |
really works on a pan-European scale? I am saying it is better than | :16:31. | :16:35. | |
not having it which is the point. The question you asked me is if we | :16:36. | :16:40. | |
were better off out and the answer is, how would withdrawing from the | :16:41. | :16:44. | |
European Union improve our national security? And I have to say I simply | :16:45. | :16:50. | |
do not see. That is not to say that the European systems we operate | :16:51. | :16:53. | |
under our perfect or could not do with improvement. We do a lot of | :16:54. | :16:56. | |
intelligence sharing with our European partners, our key partners. | :16:57. | :17:01. | |
We do a lot more with the English-speaking world, the | :17:02. | :17:04. | |
so-called five eyes ultimate level of intelligence sharing for the UK | :17:05. | :17:09. | |
government involves the United States, Canada .com Australia and | :17:10. | :17:12. | |
New Zealand. That sends a very clear message about who we in the UK | :17:13. | :17:19. | |
believe we can really trust. I think that is a slightly simplistic | :17:20. | :17:23. | |
approach to the issue. There is no doubt that our five eyes partners | :17:24. | :17:28. | |
are a long, trusted and very well ordered relationship. It is very | :17:29. | :17:32. | |
important for our national security and for global security. But when it | :17:33. | :17:37. | |
comes to the issue of how do we tackle terrorist cells which may be | :17:38. | :17:41. | |
across the European Union, it is abundantly clear that our closest | :17:42. | :17:44. | |
cooperation will be with those countries which are most directly | :17:45. | :17:48. | |
affected and with those countries of the European area which can best | :17:49. | :17:54. | |
provide us with assistance. I know on the whole you are a fan of | :17:55. | :17:58. | |
European institutions. The Belgian Prime Minister now says it is time | :17:59. | :18:04. | |
for European CIA, a truly integrated intelligence agency for the European | :18:05. | :18:08. | |
Union. Would you go that far? I think that might prevent some | :18:09. | :18:12. | |
problems in relation to what you share. So I don't necessarily think | :18:13. | :18:17. | |
that is the solution. As I say, I certainly don't think that all is | :18:18. | :18:23. | |
perfect. It isn't. But there are mechanisms for sharing policing | :18:24. | :18:26. | |
information which is vital to our national security. The chief | :18:27. | :18:29. | |
Commissioner of police for the Metropolis have said so, everything | :18:30. | :18:34. | |
I know about this suggests it is of great importance and intelligence | :18:35. | :18:38. | |
sharing is a rather different issue. That is often done on a bilateral | :18:39. | :18:43. | |
level, I am sure. At the mechanisms within the European Union are | :18:44. | :18:47. | |
helpful to our cooperation. For example, there is a committee that | :18:48. | :18:51. | |
meets regularly with heads of internal security services including | :18:52. | :18:55. | |
MI5. But it is telling that Britain is now intent on going further than | :18:56. | :18:58. | |
the European Union appears to be ready to go, at least before the | :18:59. | :19:04. | |
Brussels bombs, in terms of surveillance. Electronic mass | :19:05. | :19:07. | |
surveillance. You have been intimately involved in this debate | :19:08. | :19:11. | |
in the United Kingdom, about exactly how far the government should push | :19:12. | :19:17. | |
its investigator he powers, legislation. Given the security | :19:18. | :19:20. | |
situation we have talked about today, you believe the government | :19:21. | :19:24. | |
has got the balance right with its insistence there must be sweeping | :19:25. | :19:27. | |
new electronic surveillance powers? The committee of which I am a | :19:28. | :19:31. | |
chairman was absolutely clear in its early report for the last election | :19:32. | :19:35. | |
and its follow-up report that the powers that the government is | :19:36. | :19:38. | |
seeking to set out in the legislation, the area as it wishes | :19:39. | :19:43. | |
to cover, are necessary and proportionate to maintaining our | :19:44. | :19:47. | |
national security. And it is wrong to think that what it is seeking to | :19:48. | :19:51. | |
do is to provide an ability of general surveillance, of | :19:52. | :19:58. | |
communications, to our agencies, in particular GCHQ. This is utterly | :19:59. | :20:03. | |
removed from reality, it is not what GCHQ does or intends to do and if | :20:04. | :20:08. | |
they were to do it... But they do store the records of ordinary people | :20:09. | :20:13. | |
for up to a year? The question is about the capability of the agencies | :20:14. | :20:16. | |
to be able to access important data if they need it. That is entirely | :20:17. | :20:21. | |
different thing from carrying out mass surveillance the population | :20:22. | :20:24. | |
because that is not what they are doing. But if the data is not | :20:25. | :20:29. | |
available for them to look at an search, then they can't use it. What | :20:30. | :20:33. | |
about Edward Snowden and everything he revealed about the extent of | :20:34. | :20:37. | |
surveillance that the public will be: -- will be satisfied with this? | :20:38. | :20:45. | |
You said not long ago given the background of this, the allegations | :20:46. | :20:49. | |
made by Edward Snowden, you said it is surprising that the protection of | :20:50. | :20:54. | |
people's privacy, enshrined in other legislation doesn't feature more | :20:55. | :20:56. | |
prominently in this draft legislation. We certainly put | :20:57. | :21:01. | |
forward our view that it would have been better to have an overarching | :21:02. | :21:05. | |
privacy clause within the legislation. And will you still push | :21:06. | :21:09. | |
for that? I very much hope that the government will respond positively | :21:10. | :21:13. | |
to what we have suggested. As I said when I addressed the house in the | :21:14. | :21:16. | |
second reading of this legislation when it first came before | :21:17. | :21:19. | |
Parliament, one has got to be careful. Some of it may have a | :21:20. | :21:23. | |
slightly symbolic aspect to it but I do think it overarching privacy | :21:24. | :21:25. | |
clause in the view of the committee would be better dealt with in this | :21:26. | :21:29. | |
legislation but that is an entirely different thing from saying that the | :21:30. | :21:33. | |
legislation, in terms of the areas of power that the government wants | :21:34. | :21:39. | |
to take, isn't needed. It is. And in the end what is really important is | :21:40. | :21:43. | |
who decides when these powers can be assumed by the government. Now there | :21:44. | :21:46. | |
has been a lot of debate about the extent of the judicial lock that is | :21:47. | :21:51. | |
put upon these powers. Do you believe that now, the judiciary and | :21:52. | :21:57. | |
the judicial authority is sufficient to ensure that ministers cannot ride | :21:58. | :22:02. | |
roughshod over privacy? The shift that has put forward about having a | :22:03. | :22:06. | |
double lock mechanism over the majority of these powers is a very | :22:07. | :22:10. | |
significant change and it does give me great confidence that the ability | :22:11. | :22:13. | |
of a judge to review the ministerial decision of granting a war and | :22:14. | :22:18. | |
provides extremely important safeguard to these powers being | :22:19. | :22:23. | |
abused. We pressed this very... I personally pressed this very hard | :22:24. | :22:26. | |
and I'm very pleased to see it in legislation. Isn't there something | :22:27. | :22:30. | |
missing from all of this debate about how Europe's best response to | :22:31. | :22:34. | |
the security threat by jihadi extremists? In the end, as long as | :22:35. | :22:41. | |
there is this war in Syria, as long as the Jihadis are making new | :22:42. | :22:44. | |
inroads in countries like Libya, there is no way that we can | :22:45. | :22:49. | |
extinguish the threat in Europe, that is the truth isn't it? Guess it | :22:50. | :22:56. | |
is. We don't have 100% security. Nor do we have a coherent policy in | :22:57. | :23:00. | |
Syria or Libya. There is no doubt that there are issues over what | :23:01. | :23:04. | |
Western policy may be in Syria or Libya. Idlib yeah we recently signed | :23:05. | :23:10. | |
up to providing much greater help to the new government, the new national | :23:11. | :23:15. | |
government, which is recognise by the United Nations. I am very | :23:16. | :23:19. | |
pleased to see that. And in Syria, there is a strategy but I have to | :23:20. | :23:25. | |
say it is one that has proved very challenging to implement partly | :23:26. | :23:28. | |
because of the attitude of Russia and the vote that took place in the | :23:29. | :23:31. | |
House of Parliament over whether we should take any military action to | :23:32. | :23:33. | |
restrain the worst excesses of Bashar al-Assad were undertaken step | :23:34. | :23:38. | |
that we are where we are and I have to say I do worry. I look at the | :23:39. | :23:42. | |
state of the Middle East and the anxiety is that if you deal with one | :23:43. | :23:46. | |
problem, another is going to surface. The Middle East is in a | :23:47. | :23:50. | |
state of severe chaos. There are some countries that are surviving, | :23:51. | :23:54. | |
many of them are descending into a very dark place and that is going to | :23:55. | :23:58. | |
present challenges for us. We are on their doorstep. So when Francois | :23:59. | :24:03. | |
Hollande said this was a war that had no end, do you agree? History | :24:04. | :24:10. | |
shows that periods of great disturbance of this kind will come | :24:11. | :24:12. | |
to an end eventually but I don't think they will come to an end | :24:13. | :24:16. | |
quickly. Dominic Grieve, we have to and write there but thank you for | :24:17. | :24:26. | |
being on HARDtalk -- we have to end right there. | :24:27. | :24:32. |