Hussain Al-Shahristani - former Iraqi foreign minister HARDtalk

Welcome to HARDtalk, with me, Stephen Sackur.

Fill it in the woes afflicting Iraq seems endless. Prime Minister Haider

al-Abadi has promised a cleanup of rampant corruption which he appears

unable to deliver, with anger on the streets not least because public

services are shambolic and the oil dependent economies in meltdown --

the littany. All of this while the government is supposed to be focused

on fighting the Islamic State insurgency. Well, my guest is long

serving government minister Hussain Al-Shahristani. Is he one of the old

guard responsible for this Iraqi mess?

Hussain Al-Shahristani, welcome to HARDtalk.

Well, thank you for inviting me. It is good to be with you for the third

time. That is right. We have spoken before. You are a veteran of Iraqi

government. I have not asked a minister a question like this - the

confusion and chaos in Baghdad today, I am not sure whether you

have resigned your post as minister of higher education or whether you

have been fired or whether you are still in the government. Can you

enlighten me? Yes. I have handed in my resignation about two months ago

to the Prime Minister. I have consistently asked him to exit that

resignation. Yesterday that resignation was accepted and I am

not a minister of higher education any more. There are many rumours in

Baghdad that you call it a resignation but you were fired

because you are part of the old guard that the Prime Minister Haider

al-Abadi is determined to get rid of. No, that is not quite the case.

Mr al-Abadi has been on the record several times saying that he is very

proud of some of his ministers and he has mentioned my name in

particular, but there has been a demand, popular demand, that a new

cabinet should be introduced, of technocrats, and Mr Abadi has

conceded to that popular call and he has asked, actually, all of the

ministers to resign, and they did. In my particular case, my

resignation was two months ahead of the others, but the fact is that all

ministers did resign when he intended to set up a new government.

Now, Doctor Al-Shahristani, you are talking from the green zone, the

protected government area at the heart of Baghdad, is that right?

That is correct, yes. So, you must be aware more than anyone of the

degree of anger in Baghdad today, because as you know, hundreds of

thousands have been making their anger known on the streets around

the green zone. Such is the fury of people with not just the

incompetence of the Iraqi government over the years but the rampant

corruption. Do you understand the depth of that anger? Yes, I do, but

let's put things in perspective. The government was voted in after

elections. More than 10 million Iraqis have taken part in those

elections and they have elected to parliament that has voted in the

government. Not necessarily just Abadi's government, the government

before that. And for 10,000 people or more to demonstrate, that is a

welcome sign of people expressing their wishes, their demands. But to

assume that represents the whole Iraqi people, I don't think that is

very accurate. The demonstrators, they basically come from one

faction, one political faction, namely the Alsada group. He has

turned himself into the member of the Iraqi people, because he sees

the opportunity that comes with the fact that Iraq, with some of the

largest oil reserves in the world currently is ranked as pretty much

the most corrupt nation on earth with an unemployment rate that has

risen to almost 35%. It has millions of people added to the list of those

living in poverty, just I think almost 3 million new Iraqis joining

the list of those living in absolute poverty. This is the reason people

are furious. -- Al-Sadr. You said Al-Sadr claims to champion the cause

of the people. Let's not forget that he has a view ministers, three,

sometimes four, and every Cabinet that has been formed in Iraq after

the fall of the regime, although he cannot blame others and not accept

responsibility himself -- few ministers. As a matter of fact, I

recall very well in the second cabinet of Mr Maliki, almost six

years ago, he insisted on being given all the ministries that deal

or that provide services directly to the people, that is the ministry of

the musicality, the ministry of housing, the ministry of industry

and so on -- municipality. And before that they have the Ministry

of Health. So, to claim that others have been responsible for the

conditions of the country, I don't think it is fair. Well, let's not

get hung up on different ministers accusing each other of

responsibility, let's stick with you, if I can, and your

responsibility, because you were the minister of oil from 2006 - 2010,

Deputy PM from then until 2014, one of the closest to Maliki, so you

have to accept responsibility for the fact that during those years

there was a scale of corruption inside the Iraqi government that

frankly no nation on earth can write. Do you accept responsibility?

I accept responsibility for the portfolios I have been responsible

for -- rival. Namely, minister of oil between 2006 and 2010, and I am

very proud of the rounds in which we invited the oil companies in a

transparent process, in offering them the development of our

oilfields, service contracts, that have kept the oil produced in the

country for the nation, and that has offered the oil companies the lowest

remuneration sees anywhere else among oil producing companies. The

fact that Iraq is producing almost 4 million barrels per day today,

despite the oil prices, which the country cannot be responsible for,

that is supply and demand in the world oil market, so all those

developments in the oil sector has been during the period that I have

run that particular ministry. But Doctor Al-Shahristani, the question

is, if I can, what happened to the vast sums of money, revenues of that

came in from the oil sector? No one doubts Iraq has ramped up

production. No one doubts in that period from 2006 -2014 when you were

responsible as oil minister and Deputy Prime Minister that huge

muscle money was coming in, but what happened? Let me quote you Adil Nuri

from the Iraqi integrity commission, charged with looking into this

rampant corruption. He says as much as half a trillion, half a trillion

dollars in funds from the government coffers, mostly oil revenue, have

systematically disappeared during those Maliki years. What happened to

that money? Well, first of all, you should know, and, well, I am not

surprised you asked that question, because most people don't realise

that the oil revenues don't come to the ministry of oil at all. We

produce and export oil but we don't receive at the ministry of oil...

(CROSSTALK). As minister of oil you take a little interest in the money.

Absolutely. I was going to reply to that. So, the money did not come to

the ministry of oil, to be responsible directly for the

disbursement, it goes to the ministry of finance, and the

ministry of finance has an annual budget that is approved by the

parliament, distributed to the various ministries, and the minister

of oil was always complaining that we are not getting enough to develop

the oil resources because money was disbursed for various projects. To

claim that $500 million has disappeared is utterly untrue. Let

me give you another quote from someone I am sure you know,

Al-Djibouri, looking into the misuse of public money, he says we have

paid out $1 billion for warplanes that never arrived, there have been

budget painful courthouses that were never built in Al-Shahristani, the

same with road projects all over the country, and at the port near Basra,

basically a specific list of corrupt practices involving public monies

that never went to the public projects they were supposed to --

Tikrit. From 2010 to 3014 you were the Vice Prime Minister. How could

you among other senior figures in the government continue to allow

this to happen? -- 2014. Well, first of all, those projects you mentioned

were not under my supervision. But the same person that you just

called, Mr Djibouri, and I wish you could check that interview, he

himself had claimed at one of his interviews that he has been

corrupt, he has accepted bribes and he has accused others of the same

thing. Let's get very personal. You will be more aware than me that in

the last few days and weeks that has been a huge focus on you personally

because of a series of allegations made by the Huffington Post and the

Fairfax media group, who conducted an investigation based on leaked

documents, which appeared to show that a Monaco -based oil services

company, Una Oil, had corrupt relations with a series of Iraqi

officials, including you. Well, I am aware of that Huffington Post report

and they have also quoted me saying that I have never heard of the

person that they claim they have access to his e-mail exchange, that

someone working at Unaoil... -- Unaoil. I told the Hartington Post

and the integrity commission that I have never heard of the person until

his name was mentioned in the Huffington Post article. I have

never met him. I have never communicated with him. I have never

known of his activities at all. I totally deny having had any dealing

with him or having received a single dollar from him or from anybody else

in my capacity as either minister of oil, deputy Prime Minister or the

minister of higher education. And I am actually calling on the

authorities in Monaco, where Unaoil is based, in France, in Australia,

in Britain and also in the States to make any available information or

evidence to our integrity commission in Baghdad. Let pick up on a couple

of those points, if I can. First of all, Unaoil have strongly denied

allegations that they were bribing and offering inducements to official

such as yourself. They say it is baseless and false. But coming back

to what the media group, Fairfax media and Huffington Post,

presented, they had leaked documents which purported to show that such

was the relationship between the company and you that you even had a

codename. You were codenamed Teacher. Now, are you telling me

that all this detail, there are hundreds and hundreds of pages of

this stuff, all of it is entirely false? Yes, absolutely, Stephen. Let

us stick to the facts. What the Huffington Post is saying, that they

have access to e-mails between two individuals... All I can ask, it is

fairly simple, given the allegations around you and amounts the of money

involved, millions of dollars, allegedly, are you prepared to open

up all of your own personal and family bank accounts and financial

records, not just in Iraq but overseas perhaps as well, just to

tell the Iraqi public what you are worth?

Absolutely. I have made that statement the second day when the

report was published and called on the integrity commission in Baghdad

to investigate all my bank accounts in Baghdad and elsewhere. I have

given them the account numbers. I have given them a list of all the

properties I own in Iraq. It is very obvious and clear because they have

all the records. I have even given them the address of the house that I

own in London, which I bought and mortgaged in the year 2000, before

the regime change in 2003 and I am still paying the mortgage in London

on that property. All right. Well listen, we have probably pushed as

far as we can into the details of your financial records and the Iraqi

people will ultimately take a view as to whether... I am glad that you

did. I have never seen you so hostile in an interview, but I am

glad that you did and I would like your audience to know that the only

thing I own outside Iraq is a house that I bought in London when I was a

refugee there on mortgage. I bought it in 2000 and I'm still paying the

mortgage on that house where my family was living when we were

there. Let me ask you, if I may... It is the only thing I'm hurt it for

my father. Let me ask you a more general question. We have gone into

the personal situation and, let's broaden it out. This is something

that the former Prime Minister senior figure in Iraq said about

this question of corruption recently. He said this is

existential. There are organised corruption syndicates running Iraq

today. Never mind the militias, he said. And I tell you very frankly,

no Iraqi power can take action on this. Do you feel as helpless in the

face of corruption as he appears to? No I am not as a matter of

fact. I think the integrity commission has the power

responsibility to investigate any individual. They should do their

job. The Iraqi people demand to know who of the government services or

ministers have actually accumulated any wealth. And I'm actually calling

on the Iraqi government to activate a very old law from the Times of the

monarchy that says that any individual that has taken up a

public job, such as a minister or public servant, should be held

accountable to explain where did he get his wealth from? How much did he

own before he took the public office and how much is he worth now? The

Prime Minister is committed to creating a new cabinet of what he

calls technocrats who won't be committed to militias or parties who

he says will clean up Iraq in terms of the corruption. Do you believe

that, yes or no? Well, I wish he could do that. But to claim that

these technocrats are free of the militias or political groups is an

overstatement because some of them have been nominated by themselves.

You are 99% depended on the oil revenues to support her government,

you have a massive fiscal deficit. Because of the oil price crash, you

are basically running out of money. How close to collapse is the Iraqi

government and its finances? Well, the oil prices when they declined

from $100 per barrel to almost $25, we were hit very hard by that

decline in revenue. But this was in January and in February, still the

country managed to pay the salaries of the civil servants, to pay the

pensioners and to pay the Social Security. In total, about 7 million

Iraqis are paid by the government. That has got to change, doesn't it

Doctor Shahristani? You can't run a country went 7 million out of 22 -23

million people are on the government payroll. I'm wondering why in all

your time in office, I am not blaming you for everything, but you

happens to be a very senior figure. Why didn't the government

fundamentally reform and restructure the economy? Well, I have been in

the forefront of people and I have been calling for this since 2008 as

a matter of fact, in the first government, I was pointing out

employing such a large number of civil servants is not very healthy.

The public sector, to control the whole economy, as it used to do

under the previous regime, was not a very healthy way of running the

economy of the country. And this has been my position consistently. But

various cabinets and so on tried to please the public by and owing more

people. We must end by reflecting on the military situation and the

conflict with the so-called Islamic State, which still holds much Iraqi

territory including the second most important city, the second biggest

city in the country, most all. In your view, is the Iraqi government

with all the chaos and economic problems in any position to

undertake a full on assault to retake most soul this year? Yes, I

believe the Iraqi people and the Iraqi army and the mobilization

forces and the tribal units are all totally committed to free their

country and liberate their people from ISIS. Despite all this

political turmoil and accusations and the internal fights in the

parliament and so on. This has not affected, so far, our efforts to

fight ISIS and liberate important towns like Ramadi and other villages

set both of Mosley. I go to the frontlines quite frequently and

fighting spirit and the morale of our fighting forces are extremely

high. Really? Is it not the truth that you are very, very reliant

right now on support aid from Iran and also from the other sort of

direction, from the United States? The Pentagon just announced the US

troop level in Iraq has gone beyond 4000 and that is not including

covert special forces. The Americans pulled out a few years ago and now

they are pouring back in and frankly, you can't in the Iraqi

government, conduct any military operations now without the Iranians

and the US offering you material support. This is true. Iran is

offering a lot of material support. The United States is conducting

Erraid Davies against ISIS positions -- air raids. These are all very

important in the fight but it is also true that there is not a single

soldier, American or Iranian, fighting alongside the Iraqi forces

on the front lines. The war is being conducted all by Iraqis. But yes

there is support from Iran in the United States and for that matter,

from other countries. There is training, ammunition, other military

supplies and military advisors. Is this the year there is going to

be... Is this a make or break year for Iraq? I cannot answer that

question. The Prime Minister has promised the Iraqi people that Mosul

will be liberated before the end of this year. I wish him all success in

that, to deliver on that promise. We have to end there. Doctor

Shahristani, thank you for joining me from Baghdad. Thank you for

having me.