Dr Norbert Röttgen - Chairman, Foreign Affairs Committee, Germany HARDtalk

Welcome to HARDtalk, I'm Stephen Sackur.

Germany is indisputably the most powerful nations. But does it have

the will and the means to prevent the EU being undermined by division

and fragmentation? The migration crisis and the Greek

debt disaster have posed challenges that Angela Merkel is struggling to

overcome. Well, my guest today is

a senior figure in the Norbert Rottgen, a chairman in the

Committee in the German parliament. Can German leadership rescue

the European project? Norbert Rottgen, in Berlin,

welcome to HARDtalk. Hello. Hello. I think it is fair to

say a sense of existential crisis hangs over the European Union. First

it was the Greek debt crisis, now it is the massive migration challenge.

In Berlin, is the breakup of the European Union seen as a serious

possibility? I at least very much agree with your analysis that we are

facing an existential crisis as never before. It is a crisis of

solidarity. Everybody is talking the national talk, and thus paralysing

the European Union and its ability to currently act so this could be

and is the new situation and new experience, that failure of Europe

as possible, and I think we have even more awareness of this new

possibility which hasn't been there since World War Two. That is quite a

thought. Is that shared widely in Berlin? You are a senior figure, a

minister in Angela Merkel's Cabinet for a while, now you chair the

Foreign Affairs Committee. Would you say that what you have just told me

as a fair reflection of the way many senior German steel? This is always

difficult to say, if your own analogies are shared by so many. In

general I would say that there is the continuity bias. And we are used

to saying that in European integration, crisis is the mode of

progress. And there was always the talk, that never waste a crisis,

because after the crisis we were better off than before. So I think

we are perhaps a little bit misled by this experience of the past. We

are seeing now, and have experienced, a turning point. And I

am afraid that the new quality that, as I mentioned, failure is possible,

because there is so many... There are so many threats which are really

in danger the foundations of the European Union, has to be increased

because I see not adequate action in comparison to the threats we are

facing. Let us go through it in some detail them. This phrase of yours,

failure is possible, is fascinating. So let's talk specifics and let's

begin with the migration challenge. I think it's fair to say that your

government was instrumental in pushing through the deal with Turkey

to try and stem the flow of refugees and migrants from Turkey across the

Aegean into Greece, and therefore into the European Union. This

so-called one for one deal. It took a long time to thrash out. It now

looks as though it might collapse. Do you fear it will? We don't want

to see this deal collapsed, and we don't want to see a development in

Turkey which goes in the direction of more and authoritarian style of

political system. But we have two C the symptoms, the resignation of the

Prime Minister is a clear sign that now president Erdogan wants to have

a streamlined government with no political figure which has the power

to pursue different goals. So we will see the determination of the

Turkish President Erdogan to transform Turkey into a

presidential, authoritarian political system. And this is very

much beyond the question of the migration deal challenge, and the

threat for Europe. Because we want to have good relations with Turkey.

Yes, but is it not the truth when it comes to the hard realities of the

migration crisis, and Germany and Europe's stance on Turkey, that

President Erdogan holds all the cards? You desperately, desperately

need him to implement that deal and to stop the many, many thousands of

people getting into boats and crossing into Greece. You are

desperate for that deal to stick, and therefore whatever you say about

his authoritarianism, in the end you are going to give him a past. I

don't share your analysis. What we are in desperate need for is a

European solution. And as long as Europe fails to forge a European

response to the refugee crisis, you are right. We are to a certain

degree dependent. But it is not that way that Turkey is the key to

resolve our refugee crisis. First of all, on geographical reasons there

are different ways, more ways than through Turkey to come to Europe. In

spring and summertime we will see that the Mediterranean Sea will be

used as a way from Africa and the Middle East to come to Europe. And

there is no, from the beginning has not been, a political will in Turkey

and in the person of the Turkish President, that he wants to make a

fair deal. He wants to exploit his new tool of power with regard to

Europe. So it only demonstrates and underlines the necessity that we

have to find... You may say desperately, a European solution.

And Turkey will not solve, instead of Europeans, this European problem.

Well, we will get to the European end of this and the EU end of this

in the second, in terms of Schengen and everything else and determining

borders. Before we get there, one last question on Turkey. This is

perhaps for Germany more than any other nation. If Erdogan continues

on his present course, with his government locking up journalists,

attempting to redefine the anti- terror laws, doing a whole lot of

things the Europeans don't like, are you saying that the European Union

will walk away from the deal which required Europe to promise, you

know, these are free travel for Turks, speeding up of the accession

talks for Turkey, will that deal be torn up, yes or no? We will not walk

away. We are determined to engage with Turkey, but I can't exclude

that President Erdogan has other priorities, and that he will walk

away. This will be for the disadvantage for Turkey, but also

for Europe. We can't exclude this possibility. Like mailing is not...

Is not a possibility to co-operate between countries -- blackmailing.

Let's turn out to the internal dynamics inside the European Union

caused by the migration challenge. Would you, on reflection, accept

that Angela Merkel's decision to offer the welcome mat for last Year

1 millionplus people, migrants, refugees, to enter Germany, would

you accept that that unilateral decision she took is at the root of

the divisions within the EU over migration? No, I definitely reject

this point of view. Because the root cause is that there are refugees

fleeing their desperation, fleeing chaos, fleeing war, fleeing hatred.

They flee their desperate... That is true, but with respect they would

not have headed in the Europe and into Germany in particular had they

not known that Angela Merkel had made a promise, made a very early

promise, to receive all those who arrived? This is not true. Because

more than 100,000 refugees were in Europe, they were in Hungary,

strolling around and trying to cross the borders. So there was an Immonen

situation and Angela Merkel responded to an existing problem and

challenge, and she demonstrated a practical, or she practised a

practical solution, and of course also humanitarian solution, and I

would ask what is the identity of Europe when we are facing a new

geopolitical situation? A huge area from northern Africa over Syria,

Iraq to Afghanistan, an area of desperation. We have to deal with

this. Orders, to a wrecked borders, it cannot be a sustainable solution

to that -- to erect borders. And what is simply lacking is European

solidarity. The others are backing away, this is a problem. It is

interesting to hear your view but you are very much out of sync with

the former boss of your own party, and the leader for many, many years,

Kohl. He made a point of going to meet the Hungarian Prime Minister

Viktor Orban, and Kohl said it is true that Europe cannot become a

home for millions in need from all over the world, most of whom have a

belief that is different from our Judaeo-Christian beliefs which are

the foundation of our European social order and values. NACRO three

is essentially saying, I think in not very coded terms, that Angela

Merkel's policy was irresponsible. Everybody agrees, including, of

course, the German Chancellor, agrees on that, that we are not able

to take millions of refugees in each of the European countries. I think

500 million Europeans are able to integrate some million, a decent

proportion of those who are fleeing their desperation. So everybody

agrees on the necessity that there have to be limitations. But on the

other side you have to face the facts. You have the pressure of

people fleeing their situation, because you have war-torn Syria, and

we cannot... You don't have to face the facts, if you live in Hungary,

Slovakia, Poland, they are led by governments which say we don't care

what the Germans say about burden sharing, or indeed the EU

commission. We are simply not going to take thousands of these people,

because we believe that is not our national interests, not in the

security interests of Europe. But then you are back to the question of

solidarity. There are always questions which are more important

for one country or the other country. In France and Italy, the

question of youth unemployment is very, very important. For Poland,

the Baltic states, the relationship and the perception of pressure and

threat from Russia is very, very important. So we have to compromise

and find solutions to all of these dividing issues by forging

compromise and bringing up solidarity. It cannot be a question

that the refugees and terrorism are spilling over, and you have to

address it. The search for consensus and compromises and solidarity, you

captured in those terms for the European Union as a whole, but I

wonder how you about Germans and Germany in particular? There is no

consensus inside your own country. If we look at the most recent

regional election results, a big rise in support for the Alternative

for Deutschland party, which is deeply opposed to what Angela Merkel

has done. Your own country has been polarised and divided by this. Of

course. Because we are facing a new reality. And this is partly the

cause or the routes for the new reality, which means refugees, the

roots are very ugly. This is to repeat it. It is war, it is

conflict, it is chaos, in this region, and this is our

neighbourhood. So of course, people are following the temptation, the

illusion, that we can back away, that we can ignore the reality. But

if we continued to ignore reality, the reality will come to ask. We see

terrorism all over in Europe, and the pressure of migrants will

sustain and will remain. So we have to find political answers, and

ducking away, ignoring reality, is a very, very dangerous approach to

reality and the facts. But talking about ducking away from reality, do

you in your own party, the Christian Democrats in Germany, not stand

accused of that in a different aspects of this crisis, and that is

your stance on Greece? Greece is ultimately the EU's frontline

country when it comes to the migration challenge. And yet your

own country, Germany, is the toughest on Greece when it comes

to, for example, negotiations over the third tailor package. When

Greece desperately need economic help and support to allow it to cope

with the refugee crisis it still has, Germany remains of zest with

exporting an austerity ideology and forcing it upon the great people --

of zest. Germany has combined a tough stance

on Greece, you are right, we have a tough stance on Greece and I think

everybody agrees that there is a necessity to beast -- to be tough

with Greece. You know that is not true. Sorry to enter up, but the IMF

in particular, right now, today, we know that the German government is

at loggerheads with the IMF over the approach to Greece, because

Christine Lagarde has made it plain that the IMF believes that debt

relief has to be some octane is part of the package of measures for

Greece, -- simultaneous part of the package of measures for Greece, and

your finance minister simply refuses. I just wanted to say that

on the reform side, we have to be tough with Greece. The IMF wants to

be tougher with Greece when it comes to delivering on economic reforms.

On the other side, to deliver supply and bailouts and so on, eventually

Germany has brought up Solidarity with Greece as the major contributor

to the Greek rescue and bailouts. So, always in the past, and we are

dealing with Greece now four years, we have brought up votes. -- brought

up both. We have tried to nudge reforms, and we have brought up this

official part to the bailout programmes and since we have had the

IMF on board, we have also listen to the expertise. But the IMF is quite

clear that it is the German government more than any other which

is blocking the talk of real debt relief, a hack at one Greece's

massive mountain of debt. -- hack at. So I do not do what you are

talking about. It is the Germans who are blocking that. Yes, Germany is

blocking that, and our best argument and our first argument is that first

of all, we have to review the reform steps which are agreed upon, they

have been taken by Greece, they have just made a parliamentary motion on

that, but not all the reform targets are met up until now. I think that

first we have to review the reform steps, and then we can talk further

about how to help Greece. We need a sustainable rescue plan for Greece

so that Greece has an economic and political future. Very briefly,

because we have to rush through a couple of other subjects, but if the

IMF walks away from the bailout package, and essentially leaves the

Troika, leaves the rescue of Greece, Germany will be held responsible.

You accept that? We want the IMF on board. We want to practise the

European virtue of solidarity and compromise. All of these things are

required, and we will deliver on it. Well, we will see. Let's talk about

Germany on the world stage, because you are the chairman of the Foreign

Affairs Committee. Do you believe that Germany has figured out how to

project power on the world stage? I am particularly thinking about Syria

and Middle Eastern diplomacy. Do you think that Germany is acting

effectively? I would answer no, but we are on a learning curve. We have

just entered from a German, perhaps from a European perspective, the

third chapter of a war. First chapter was the Cold War, then we

had the end of the Soviet Union and the Cold War, and we seem to have,

but only for 25 years, the eternal peace in Europe. All of this has

decayed. Foreign policy, the proactive, leading role of Germany,

it was not required. Nobody wanted us to have, or to aspire to, such a

role. So we have been learning for only two years and I think we have

adapted. We still have to do some work. We still have 2 really

understand what international responsibility means. But we are

learning, and I would like to underline, it is only for two years.

We have made some progress. But we have not reached the level that we

have do. I must say, you are very frank about that. In the past you

have referred to Germany's "spectator role" in Syria, for

example. You have suggested that if we are serious about playing a

bigger and more serious role in global security we must set new

priorities, we must expand the defence budget. Do you see any sign

that that is what the German people really want? Of course, as with any

people, they do not want that, but of course it is more popular to talk

about additional social spending or something like that. I think the two

years now, we are making a new experience. For two years, the

public debate in Germany has absolutely been focused on

international crises, security policy and foreign policy. So with

the time passing by, we learn that a neighbourhood is in a complicated

shape, and that if we are not prepared for preventative foreign

policy action, problems will come to us. The refugee crisis and

terrorism. I think we are in a phase where we will have to recalibrate

our priorities from political tools and diplomatic tools, up to

financial resources. But it takes leadership. Well, that is a great

point. It takes leadership, and we will get to that. At just one point

on security. You have expressed quite strongly your support for

Britain staying inside the European Union, when the British people come

to vote in June on the referendum, in or out. David Cameron, the

British Prime Minister, has just said that in his view, this vote is

all about the security of Europe, of peace in Europe, and that if Britain

leaves it could risk a new war in Europe. It could risk the end of the

year of peace in Europe. Too many in Britain that sounds like a massive

exaggeration. Would you agree? I couldn't agree more. I think he hit

the nail, and this is the crucial point. The legitimacy of keeping

together is that we are in a real dangerous neighbourhood. We have

war, we have war in the Ukraine. It is not a member of the European

Union, but it is part of Europe. If I may, sticking to Britain leading

the European Union, what difference will it make, really, to the

long-term future of European security of Britain is in or out? I

mean, Britain is still going to be the same nation, the same Western

democracy. It is not going to threaten European peace if the

British people decide to leave the European Union. A precondition for

preserving peace in Europe and its neighbourhood is strength. It is as

simple as that. Unity, and the precondition for European strength,

is unity. If we fall apart we will be weakened. This is true about Mr

Putin, this is true about President Erdogan, and about the entire Middle

East region. Unity is strength, and strength is the crucial factor of

power, of influence, and it is in our interests to preserve stability,

order and peace. A final question for you, and this comes to your

point about leadership. For the last few years Angela Merkel has

undoubtedly been the prime European leader, but she is in her 60s now.

She is not as popular as she used to be, according to German opinion

polls. And there is a younger generation of attentional German

leaders on the scene. -- potential. You have been named as one of them

in the past, although you fell out with her in 2012. Do you think it is

time to Germany to look beyond the era of Angela Merkel? No, we are in

an imminent era where we are challenged and where we have to

lack, and where we have to be united and strong. -- have to act. Angela

Merkel is, and remains, the strongest political figure in the

EU, in Germany and in Europe. We have 2 ended there. Norbert Rottgen,

thank you very much for being a HARDtalk. Thank you.