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After the British Labour Party suffered a crushing election defeat | :00:15. | :00:18. | |
a year ago, the shell-shocked party took a dramatic turn to the left. | :00:19. | :00:22. | |
New leader Jeremy Corbyn presented himself as the anti-austerity, | :00:23. | :00:24. | |
anti-war antithesis of Tony Blair's New Labour. | :00:25. | :00:27. | |
So, how is the Corbyn formula working? | :00:28. | :00:30. | |
My guest is senior Labour stalwart Shadow Foreign | :00:31. | :00:33. | |
Does Labour present a credible alternative | :00:34. | :00:39. | |
Hilary Benn, welcome to HARDtalk. | :00:40. | :01:11. | |
It is, as I said, a year on from a very, very difficult | :01:12. | :01:15. | |
We've just had regional elections across much of the UK and results | :01:16. | :01:22. | |
In response to them, Jeremy Corbyn said, we hung on. | :01:23. | :01:28. | |
I think we all recognise that we are going to need to do | :01:29. | :01:34. | |
That election defeat a year ago and, indeed, in 2010 was very painful | :01:35. | :01:38. | |
and difficult and it's a question of regaining the public's | :01:39. | :01:42. | |
If you look at the results last week, really important one in London | :01:43. | :01:48. | |
with Sadiq Khan's election as the mayor of our great capital | :01:49. | :01:51. | |
city, Marvin Rees won in Bristol, in Scotland... | :01:52. | :01:54. | |
You can point to some positive signs but one can also point | :01:55. | :01:58. | |
to some deeply depressing structural problems, | :01:59. | :02:02. | |
perhaps the biggest of which is in Scotland. | :02:03. | :02:04. | |
Would you agree that, given what has happened in Scotland, | :02:05. | :02:06. | |
the chances of Labour winning a national general election victory, | :02:07. | :02:11. | |
looked at from today, are virtually nil? | :02:12. | :02:15. | |
We have a huge challenge ahead of us, and yes, if Scotland remains | :02:16. | :02:19. | |
as it is at the moment, we would have to make a very, | :02:20. | :02:22. | |
very large number of gains in England. | :02:23. | :02:24. | |
I'm not going to forecast the outcome of the next election | :02:25. | :02:30. | |
but, with the boundary changes, but also makes it more difficult | :02:31. | :02:34. | |
The reasons for our decline in Scotland, I think, | :02:35. | :02:38. | |
They are not just about the independence referendum. | :02:39. | :02:44. | |
That is going to take a long time for us to recover there. | :02:45. | :02:47. | |
Kezia Dugdale is there for the long term and she is committed to holding | :02:48. | :02:51. | |
the SNP government to account and it is striking that | :02:52. | :02:53. | |
Nicola Sturgeon did actually lose her absolute majority | :02:54. | :02:56. | |
Perhaps what is most striking, from a Labour point of view, | :02:57. | :03:00. | |
and in terms of figuring out the party's strategy for the next | :03:01. | :03:03. | |
four years in the run-up to the next general election, | :03:04. | :03:05. | |
what's interesting about Scotland is that Jeremy Corbyn said, | :03:06. | :03:07. | |
number one, I'm making it a priority, and number two, | :03:08. | :03:10. | |
he led the strategic shift left in Scotland. | :03:11. | :03:14. | |
The message from Scottish Labour was, we are going to raise your | :03:15. | :03:17. | |
taxes, we are going to spend more, we are going to ditch Trident. | :03:18. | :03:20. | |
These were all fundamentally left-wing messages, left of the SNP. | :03:21. | :03:24. | |
But the Scottish public isn't buying. | :03:25. | :03:27. | |
But I think that the reasons for that are longer standing | :03:28. | :03:32. | |
than the particular policies that we were campaigning on in this | :03:33. | :03:35. | |
It has been a long-term decline and it was the referendum that | :03:36. | :03:41. | |
suddenly opened the floodgates and we saw the extraordinary | :03:42. | :03:44. | |
about turn and the loss of every one of our seats, | :03:45. | :03:47. | |
bar one, Ian Murray, in the general election a year ago. | :03:48. | :03:50. | |
So look, none of us, Jeremy, the Shadow Cabinet, | :03:51. | :03:52. | |
the party in Scotland, none of us are under any illusions | :03:53. | :03:56. | |
about the scale of the challenge we face. | :03:57. | :03:58. | |
I guess one of the deep problems for Labour today, going | :03:59. | :04:01. | |
beyond results in Scotland, London or anywhere else is that it's | :04:02. | :04:05. | |
very difficult for a party to deliver a successful message | :04:06. | :04:08. | |
to the public when it appears to be so divided. | :04:09. | :04:12. | |
And one of the biggest divides in Labour today | :04:13. | :04:15. | |
is between the party on the ground, the tens of thousands | :04:16. | :04:20. | |
of new activists have signed up to the party and the Parliamentary | :04:21. | :04:24. | |
party, which clearly, in very large numbers, | :04:25. | :04:28. | |
doesn't back Jeremy Corbyn and is deeply dissatisfied | :04:29. | :04:31. | |
Well, it's a fact that Jeremy's support amongst the PLP at the time | :04:32. | :04:39. | |
He only just got enough supporters to get him into the election | :04:40. | :04:47. | |
in the first place and, when one looks the way Parliament | :04:48. | :05:05. | |
The lesson from history, and those of us who are old enough to have | :05:06. | :05:09. | |
lived through the experiences of the 1980s, is that divided | :05:10. | :05:11. | |
parties find it very difficult to win elections. | :05:12. | :05:13. | |
One of the responsibilities on all of us is to recognise | :05:14. | :05:16. | |
that we have to turn our attention to the government, we have | :05:17. | :05:19. | |
to turn our attention the policies that we are going to develop to put | :05:20. | :05:22. | |
to the British people before the next election and not to argue | :05:23. | :05:25. | |
amongst ourselves because that, in the end, does no good, above all, | :05:26. | :05:28. | |
to the people that we represent and seek to represent. | :05:29. | :05:30. | |
Interesting phrase you just used, it's my job to support Jeremy. | :05:31. | :05:33. | |
It's not your job to support Jeremy if you become convinced that he's | :05:34. | :05:36. | |
taking the Labour Party in the fundamentally wrong direction. | :05:37. | :05:41. | |
Then it's surely your job, as a loyal Labour Party politician, | :05:42. | :05:44. | |
No, it is our job to support the elected leader | :05:45. | :05:50. | |
of the Labour Party, and that is what we are doing. | :05:51. | :05:52. | |
That is an obligation on all members of the party, but when it comes | :05:53. | :05:58. | |
to particular policies, then it is for the party to decide. | :05:59. | :06:01. | |
So let's take an example, the future of Britain's nuclear deterrent, | :06:02. | :06:05. | |
where we are currently having a review. | :06:06. | :06:08. | |
The Labour Party's policy for 30 plus years has been | :06:09. | :06:11. | |
to support the maintenance of Britain's nuclear deterrent. | :06:12. | :06:15. | |
That is my view, it is not Jeremy's view, everybody knows that, | :06:16. | :06:19. | |
but the Labour Party conference in the end will decide when we see | :06:20. | :06:22. | |
the result of the review that is taking place at the moment. | :06:23. | :06:25. | |
So it's not as if debate and discussion about particular | :06:26. | :06:28. | |
policies ends because a particular leader has been elected. | :06:29. | :06:32. | |
That is part of the life blood, the democracy, of the Labour Party, | :06:33. | :06:35. | |
but we are working towards the same ends, which is to try and get rid | :06:36. | :06:39. | |
of a Tory government that is failing in the country. | :06:40. | :06:41. | |
It's interesting you pick up on Trident as a litmus test issue. | :06:42. | :06:44. | |
Number one, do you really believe the British public as a whole | :06:45. | :06:47. | |
is ready for a far left of the which says, | :06:48. | :06:49. | |
we are scrapping Britain's independent nuclear deterrent? | :06:50. | :06:52. | |
I'm just asking you whether you believe that is even conceivably | :06:53. | :06:55. | |
I don't think that would be the right policy to adopt. | :06:56. | :07:01. | |
On the record, as having said that, why do I hold that view? | :07:02. | :07:05. | |
Because I believe that the deterrent has helped to maintain the peace | :07:06. | :07:09. | |
since the end of the Second World War, because it is a world out | :07:10. | :07:13. | |
there that has changed, certainly from the Cold War | :07:14. | :07:15. | |
of my childhood and student days, but there are different threats now | :07:16. | :07:21. | |
In addition, I don't believe that if Britain were to announce | :07:22. | :07:25. | |
it was giving up its nuclear deterrent than any of the other | :07:26. | :07:28. | |
nuclear states, whether they've signed the nuclear Non-Proliferation | :07:29. | :07:30. | |
Treaty or not would say, if you are doing that, | :07:31. | :07:32. | |
And I don't think the British people would feel safe in a world | :07:33. | :07:37. | |
in which we didn't have nuclear weapons but North Korea did. | :07:38. | :07:40. | |
I framed our conversation in terms of credibility. | :07:41. | :07:43. | |
One thing Jeremy Corbyn said is, even if the party tells me | :07:44. | :07:46. | |
that we must retain our commitment to renewing Trident, | :07:47. | :07:48. | |
I as a Prime Minister, if elected as leader of a successful | :07:49. | :07:51. | |
Labour Party to Number 10 Downing St, would never | :07:52. | :07:54. | |
I simply will never personally use nuclear weapons. | :07:55. | :08:00. | |
That undermines the credibility of the entire policy! | :08:01. | :08:04. | |
That is Jeremy being true onto himself and that is one | :08:05. | :08:08. | |
But then it's incumbent upon you, is not, to say, Mr Corbyn, | :08:09. | :08:12. | |
with all due respect, you've left the party | :08:13. | :08:15. | |
in an impossible position because we have no credible policy? | :08:16. | :08:20. | |
The policy, as to whether we continue to have nuclear weapons, | :08:21. | :08:25. | |
will be decided by the Labour Party conference and then all of us | :08:26. | :08:29. | |
are going to have to look at the outcome if, as I hope, | :08:30. | :08:32. | |
the Labour Party conference says, yes, we are going to stick | :08:33. | :08:34. | |
with the position that we have taken these last 30 years because one | :08:35. | :08:37. | |
of the first obligations on a party that aspires to be in government | :08:38. | :08:42. | |
is that we demonstrate that we are prepared to defend | :08:43. | :08:46. | |
And I think the nuclear deterrent, because in the end, it says | :08:47. | :08:51. | |
to a potential aggressor, I really wouldn't do that | :08:52. | :08:53. | |
if I were you, is part of the way in which we keep the nation safe, | :08:54. | :08:59. | |
and that is why I support the retention of that deterrent. | :09:00. | :09:02. | |
As you say, that's an issue which looms large for | :09:03. | :09:05. | |
Right now, the biggest challenge, and you've said it's the biggest | :09:06. | :09:08. | |
challenge facing the entire country for at least 40 years, | :09:09. | :09:11. | |
is the decision to be made on whether to stay | :09:12. | :09:13. | |
It is a problem for you, is it not, as a very strong | :09:14. | :09:19. | |
and passionate advocate of remain, that Jeremy Corbyn has a track | :09:20. | :09:23. | |
record which tells us that he, despite his support for remaining | :09:24. | :09:28. | |
today, fundamentally disagrees with so much | :09:29. | :09:34. | |
of what the European Union does and, in the past, has sounded | :09:35. | :09:37. | |
I don't agree with your analysis of his view and it certainly is not | :09:38. | :09:42. | |
problem because the Labour Party, as you know, has been on a journey | :09:43. | :09:46. | |
In the 1975 referendum, a majority of the Labour Party, | :09:47. | :09:51. | |
Jeremy, me, lots of labour and trade union members, | :09:52. | :09:56. | |
voted for us to leave the common market. | :09:57. | :09:58. | |
But the world has changed and the Labour Party's views have | :09:59. | :10:01. | |
changed, not least because Europe has become a way of helping | :10:02. | :10:05. | |
to protect workers' rights, something that Jeremy | :10:06. | :10:07. | |
and I and all of us are extremely passionate about. | :10:08. | :10:11. | |
And my argument is, it's even more convincing and forceful when someone | :10:12. | :10:15. | |
who says, in the past, this is what I thought, | :10:16. | :10:18. | |
but I am now of the view that this is the right thing for us to do. | :10:19. | :10:22. | |
I think it resonates with the public, and what is true | :10:23. | :10:27. | |
about the Labour Party now is the labour and trade union | :10:28. | :10:29. | |
movement is virtually united in support of the argument | :10:30. | :10:33. | |
that we should remain in the European Union have | :10:34. | :10:37. | |
very clear and sound reasons to do with jobs, | :10:38. | :10:39. | |
investment, growth, our security in the world, workers' rights, | :10:40. | :10:42. | |
protection of the environment and Britain's voice. | :10:43. | :10:45. | |
I believe that Britain's voice, and so does Jeremy, is made louder | :10:46. | :10:49. | |
and stronger by being part of the European Union and leaving | :10:50. | :10:52. | |
You've been a strong, passionate supporter | :10:53. | :10:57. | |
of the EU for some time, not true of Mr Corbyn. | :10:58. | :10:59. | |
This is what he said during his own leadership | :11:00. | :11:01. | |
He said, I would advocate a No vote if we are going to get | :11:02. | :11:06. | |
an imposition of free-market policies across Europe. | :11:07. | :11:10. | |
And another quotes, he's made it plain that he does | :11:11. | :11:12. | |
believe that the EU is run by a corporate interest. | :11:13. | :11:18. | |
deeply reluctant to be very public and passionate backing | :11:19. | :11:20. | |
There's another quote from Jeremy's election campaign, | :11:21. | :11:24. | |
which you haven't used, in which he said, I believe | :11:25. | :11:27. | |
And if you look at the speech that he gave about a month ago, | :11:28. | :11:33. | |
Yes, we want a stronger social Europe, yes, we want | :11:34. | :11:39. | |
better rights for workers, but the way in which you do | :11:40. | :11:43. | |
that is to work with your neighbours. | :11:44. | :11:47. | |
You look at the world out there, which you discuss on this | :11:48. | :11:50. | |
programme every week, you see the challenges, | :11:51. | :11:52. | |
you think of what we are going to leave to our children | :11:53. | :11:55. | |
and our grandchildren, and the truth is this, | :11:56. | :11:58. | |
that cooperating with our European neighbours, and this is the argument | :11:59. | :12:01. | |
we are making, as is Jeremy, cooperating with our European | :12:02. | :12:04. | |
neighbours is really important in helping us to manage | :12:05. | :12:07. | |
the challenges that face the world the next generation | :12:08. | :12:12. | |
So it partly comes down to the question of leadership, | :12:13. | :12:16. | |
When one is trying to win a case, one has to be as passionate | :12:17. | :12:20. | |
David Cameron is all over the airwaves every single | :12:21. | :12:23. | |
day, backing the remain campaign, leading it. | :12:24. | :12:25. | |
Jeremy Corbyn most definitely is not. | :12:26. | :12:27. | |
He had an event yesterday, he's maybe odd speech, | :12:28. | :12:29. | |
but relative to Cameron, he is as quiet as a mouse. | :12:30. | :12:33. | |
And here is what some of your most senior pro-Europe | :12:34. | :12:36. | |
They said, there are some moments when party leaders must make a real | :12:37. | :12:43. | |
We need Jeremy to convey the urgency, set out | :12:44. | :12:49. | |
The time is now the Labour's leadership to stand | :12:50. | :12:54. | |
We then heard that Jeremy Corbyn was off on holiday just before the vote. | :12:55. | :13:00. | |
That is exactly what we are doing and he is doing. | :13:01. | :13:03. | |
That is exactly what he did in this speech he gave and you will hear | :13:04. | :13:07. | |
a lot more from Jeremy during the course of this campaign. | :13:08. | :13:09. | |
Do you agree with my analysis that he's | :13:10. | :13:12. | |
All of us in the Labour Party have got a responsibility to use the time | :13:13. | :13:18. | |
that we've got now that elections are out of the way, | :13:19. | :13:21. | |
to argue the case, on which we are united, | :13:22. | :13:23. | |
Jeremy, the whole of the Shadow Cabinet, the vast | :13:24. | :13:25. | |
majority of the PLP, all of the major unions that | :13:26. | :13:27. | |
are affiliated to the Labour Party, speaking with one voice | :13:28. | :13:30. | |
about the importance of remaining in the European Union. | :13:31. | :13:34. | |
You, obviously a Shadow Foreign Secretary, take a particular | :13:35. | :13:37. | |
interest in the degree to which Britain is a stronger voice | :13:38. | :13:41. | |
on the world stage as a part of the European Union. | :13:42. | :13:44. | |
It disagreed with profoundly by the Brexit campaign. | :13:45. | :13:49. | |
But I just want to pick away at some of the things you've said. | :13:50. | :13:53. | |
You say, the EU is a hugely powerful alliance built on the values | :13:54. | :13:57. | |
of democracy, respect for human rights, free media, | :13:58. | :14:00. | |
rule of law, individual freedom, etc, etc. | :14:01. | :14:04. | |
I just wonder whether you have spent much time reading about or visiting | :14:05. | :14:07. | |
Victor Orban's Hungary or the Poland of the Law and Justice Party, | :14:08. | :14:15. | |
a bunch of other European nations too, where there are real questions | :14:16. | :14:17. | |
about is whether these shared values, particularly in terms | :14:18. | :14:21. | |
of the migration crisis, add up to a hill of beans? | :14:22. | :14:25. | |
You've got to take a long-term view about what the European Union has | :14:26. | :14:30. | |
achieved, and its greatest achievement, as you know, | :14:31. | :14:33. | |
has been to bring to an end what was centuries of conflict | :14:34. | :14:38. | |
And it didn't happen by accident out of the ashes of | :14:39. | :14:43. | |
It happened because political leaders said, by binding the nations | :14:44. | :14:46. | |
together economically, we will make a return to conflict | :14:47. | :14:51. | |
materially impossible and unthinkable. | :14:52. | :14:55. | |
You could argue that Nato is pretty darn important, actually. | :14:56. | :14:58. | |
They are both important but you know... | :14:59. | :15:02. | |
In fact, Boris Johnson, when he wrote his book on Churchill, | :15:03. | :15:06. | |
he described that achievement as a spectacular success. | :15:07. | :15:12. | |
But Boris Johnson has very powerfully made the point | :15:13. | :15:15. | |
in the last few days that, yes, there is a strong case for arguing | :15:16. | :15:18. | |
the EU is a very important part of a peaceful, stable Europe | :15:19. | :15:21. | |
since 1945, but the idea that David Cameron now peddles, | :15:22. | :15:25. | |
that if Britain pulls out, Europe slips back | :15:26. | :15:28. | |
into a continent of warfare and hatred, it's nonsense! | :15:29. | :15:33. | |
The EU will continue without Britain and peace and stability across most | :15:34. | :15:37. | |
of Europe is unlikely to be affected materially by Britain | :15:38. | :15:40. | |
The European Union has provided a home for countries that came out of | :15:41. | :15:57. | |
the former Soviet bloc and that has been a great achievement because I | :15:58. | :16:01. | |
know from my inexperience as a minister, those countries had to | :16:02. | :16:04. | |
make changes in the way in which they will run and worked in order to | :16:05. | :16:08. | |
meet the standard. You are right that you look at the continent of | :16:09. | :16:13. | |
Europe and around the world and you see politics moving in different | :16:14. | :16:19. | |
directions, in part because of the impact of the global economic crash, | :16:20. | :16:24. | |
and this is a dangerous time because of those precious. There's no | :16:25. | :16:29. | |
question about that at all. But the existence of the European Union, the | :16:30. | :16:32. | |
fact that the 28 countries come together to deal with the refugee | :16:33. | :16:37. | |
crisis... Which they have failed to do. Imagine a continent in which | :16:38. | :16:43. | |
there was not that structure, imagine it. We would see a lot more | :16:44. | :16:48. | |
barbed wire fences and brick walls and that is not in anybody's | :16:49. | :16:53. | |
interests. Take another example, Russian aggression in the Ukraine. | :16:54. | :16:58. | |
The fact that Europe came together and agreed to impose sanctions on | :16:59. | :17:02. | |
Russia, they are hurting Russia but they are a sign of the European | :17:03. | :17:08. | |
family saying, you can't do this. You were a big advocate at the time | :17:09. | :17:15. | |
of the invasion of Iraq in 2003. The European Union was fundamentally | :17:16. | :17:20. | |
split on the issue, France and Germany deeply disagreed with Tony | :17:21. | :17:24. | |
Blair in your position. So this idea that the European family delivers | :17:25. | :17:31. | |
coherent foreign policy is nonsense. With respect, that's a caricature of | :17:32. | :17:36. | |
the argument I'm making. There will be differences of view on particular | :17:37. | :17:42. | |
issues. But are we in a better place in Europe by being part of the | :17:43. | :17:47. | |
European Union to have the chance to try an agreement? Is that a force | :17:48. | :17:51. | |
for good? Is it an influence for good in the world? Yes, in Britain | :17:52. | :17:55. | |
is in a particular position because we are both leading. This notion we | :17:56. | :18:01. | |
are locked in the boot of someone else's car, being driven in a | :18:02. | :18:04. | |
direction we don't want to go on, is nonsense. Picking up on the | :18:05. | :18:10. | |
migration crisis, it is a big issue in the referendum campaign. It seems | :18:11. | :18:14. | |
to me there is a difference between your view of whether Britain needs | :18:15. | :18:20. | |
to impose tough immigration controls and particularly about the benefits | :18:21. | :18:25. | |
system and the view of the leadership of Jeremy Corbyn, who has | :18:26. | :18:29. | |
shied away from talking about it. They don't believe that there is a | :18:30. | :18:35. | |
future for national borders and they believe in workers, freedom of | :18:36. | :18:39. | |
movement across the EU. You seem less keen on that side of the | :18:40. | :18:42. | |
British public. How big a difference is their? Weber's position has been | :18:43. | :18:50. | |
we believe in fair contribution but the reason people have come from | :18:51. | :18:53. | |
other European countries to Britain is to work. They have made a net | :18:54. | :18:58. | |
contribution to our economy. The British public believe that far too | :18:59. | :19:03. | |
many have come in and one can trace that back to Labour's decision in | :19:04. | :19:10. | |
2004 to open the gates to Eastern European accession countries. Jack | :19:11. | :19:14. | |
Straw has said that was a terrible mistake. If one looks at polling | :19:15. | :19:19. | |
evidence and the strength of Ukip, many working people in this country | :19:20. | :19:22. | |
today do not believe your party is tough or strong on controlling | :19:23. | :19:29. | |
immigration. When it comes to the European Union, and I accept there | :19:30. | :19:33. | |
are places in sectors where there has been pressure on wages and one | :19:34. | :19:37. | |
has to recognise that, but all the studies that have been done have | :19:38. | :19:40. | |
shown that is relatively small when you compare it to the economic | :19:41. | :19:45. | |
benefits of being in the European Union, the access to the single | :19:46. | :19:49. | |
market, the fact we are the most successful country in the EU in | :19:50. | :19:53. | |
attracting foreign direct investment is in part connected with the fact | :19:54. | :19:58. | |
that we are members of the European Union. You need to manage that. We | :19:59. | :20:03. | |
had a fund that helped areas that were facing pressures to cope with | :20:04. | :20:07. | |
that. One of the things the present government did was to get rid of | :20:08. | :20:12. | |
that. In forcing the minimum wage, arguing for a living wage, dealing | :20:13. | :20:16. | |
with employment agencies that say we will only recruit workers from | :20:17. | :20:19. | |
another country. Those things should not be allowed. When it comes to the | :20:20. | :20:24. | |
housing crisis, solving that ends in our own hands. One other area want | :20:25. | :20:30. | |
to refer to when it comes to building and ability for the Labour | :20:31. | :20:35. | |
Party, it concerns the fallout from days of terrible publicity | :20:36. | :20:41. | |
surrounding one of your MPs then Ken Livingstone, appearing to hold views | :20:42. | :20:44. | |
which many in the Jewish community of the UK felt anti-Semitic. Ken | :20:45. | :21:01. | |
Livingstone less apologetic. Lord Levy says Labour has a serious | :21:02. | :21:07. | |
problem with anti-Semitism. It's crucial that leadership stands out | :21:08. | :21:11. | |
once and for all. You haven't stamped out, have you? I wouldn't | :21:12. | :21:18. | |
agree with that. Anyone against whom this accusation has been made has | :21:19. | :21:24. | |
been suspended and Jeremy Corbyn has established this enquiry. Do you | :21:25. | :21:29. | |
believe Ken Livingstone, when he was talking about Hitler and Zionism and | :21:30. | :21:36. | |
suggesting that his supporters, was that anti-Semitic? I will not | :21:37. | :21:39. | |
comment on individual cases because there has to be due process through | :21:40. | :21:47. | |
the NEC but I think a lot of people look to Ken Livingstone's comments | :21:48. | :21:53. | |
without a incredulity. Including me. I don't understand what he thought | :21:54. | :21:57. | |
he was doing and why he was saying what he said but we need to leave | :21:58. | :22:02. | |
that to... What about Jeremy Corbyn? This matters to you. Jeremy Corbyn | :22:03. | :22:09. | |
has referred to the mass and has belies friends. They friends of | :22:10. | :22:15. | |
yours? No, they are not. He said the House of Commons last week they were | :22:16. | :22:19. | |
not his friends and he does not support those. When it comes to how | :22:20. | :22:25. | |
mass, if there would be peace in the Middle East, people have to commit | :22:26. | :22:30. | |
to a peace process, they have to stop being committed to armed | :22:31. | :22:33. | |
struggle and in the case of how mass, they had to recognise the | :22:34. | :22:38. | |
right of Israel to exist otherwise there will not be pieced in the | :22:39. | :22:42. | |
Middle East. I want to get to grips with you. I'd you saying to me the | :22:43. | :22:51. | |
Jeremy Corbyn in his sharing of platforms with Hezbollah are and how | :22:52. | :22:55. | |
mass, has done a grave disservice to Labour in the Middle East? I'm not | :22:56. | :23:00. | |
saying that. As a backbencher, Jeremy has been involved on a lot of | :23:01. | :23:05. | |
platforms with a lot of people. And saying to you what he said the house | :23:06. | :23:09. | |
are problems in those two specific questions. If there is to be pieced | :23:10. | :23:15. | |
in the Middle East, there has to be courageous political leadership on | :23:16. | :23:19. | |
the part of the party to the conflict, the government of Israel | :23:20. | :23:23. | |
and Palestinians and that is not present at the moment, and the only | :23:24. | :23:28. | |
way will happen is if there is a commitment to peaceful and | :23:29. | :23:32. | |
compromise because peace will not come to the Middle East unless those | :23:33. | :23:36. | |
things happen and there's an obligation on those who are | :23:37. | :23:39. | |
currently engaged in what they believe to be an armed struggle and | :23:40. | :23:43. | |
who don't accept the right of Israel to exist, they have to change that | :23:44. | :23:47. | |
view in order to be part of a peaceful solution. We have run out | :23:48. | :23:52. | |
time. Hilary Benn, thank you for being an HARDtalk. | :23:53. | :23:59. |