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Welcome to HARDtalk, I'm Stephen Sackur. | :00:00. | :00:13. | |
You know things are bad when people are constantly telling you not to | :00:14. | :00:26. | |
Patrick. Panic. After the Brexit vote, | :00:27. | :00:26. | |
a vote, n awful lot of powerful people | :00:27. | :00:30. | |
of the European Union have joined the 'don't panic' chorus. | :00:31. | :00:34. | |
How confident can we be of the UK's future, or indeed the EU's? | :00:35. | :00:39. | |
my guess is Radek Sikorski. -- my guest today is former Polish Foreign | :00:40. | :00:59. | |
Minister, Radek Sikorski. Could British voters have | :01:00. | :01:03. | |
kickstarted the Radek Sikorski, welcome to HARDtalk. | :01:04. | :01:17. | |
Hello. You said in the run-up to the Brexit referendum, the entire world | :01:18. | :01:23. | |
will grasp in disbelief if Britain votes to Leave. Are you still | :01:24. | :01:32. | |
grasping. I think that prediction has borne fruit. I am amazed. That | :01:33. | :01:39. | |
quotes are just too may bat perhaps you and other European leaders were | :01:40. | :01:47. | |
a bit complacent. You assumed the British electorate wouldn't do this | :01:48. | :01:58. | |
quiz yellow -- gasping? --? You said in your introduction that this could | :01:59. | :02:01. | |
be the beginning of the unravelling of the EU, and a agree that cannot | :02:02. | :02:08. | |
be excluded. That would be terrible for Britain. And it would be | :02:09. | :02:16. | |
terrible to have a united Europe at written's exclusion, which is | :02:17. | :02:19. | |
something they tried to prevent four 500 years. Not a good place to be | :02:20. | :02:24. | |
in. When you say this could herald the unravelling of the EU, it makes | :02:25. | :02:31. | |
me think, the European Union must have been a very fragile project is | :02:32. | :02:41. | |
be doubled if the departure of one nation State could cause it to | :02:42. | :02:49. | |
collapse? It is not the European Union which has voted to expel | :02:50. | :02:55. | |
Britain, Britain has voted to Leave. The first duty of the politicians of | :02:56. | :02:59. | |
the continent is to save the remaining 27 union members. What | :03:00. | :03:05. | |
sort of message are you sending to the other member states and the | :03:06. | :03:11. | |
wider world about the strength and coherence of Europe when you and | :03:12. | :03:27. | |
Donald -- Donald Tusk say things like the fact that the entire trans- | :03:28. | :03:31. | |
Atlantic committee will become significantly weaker. Is that true? | :03:32. | :03:38. | |
We believe that the European Union was better with Britain in it than | :03:39. | :03:42. | |
what you will get now. But you have made your decision, you have to take | :03:43. | :03:47. | |
care of union and we of hours. We will talk at length about your | :03:48. | :03:55. | |
views, but I am interested in your take off how would you now see the | :03:56. | :04:01. | |
political leadership in Britain -- ours. We believe David Cameron will | :04:02. | :04:06. | |
be in office for another three months, he cannot be the captain of | :04:07. | :04:09. | |
the ship as a rack that is negotiated. But in hours from now, | :04:10. | :04:20. | |
he is going to have to front up to the other members of the EU | :04:21. | :04:24. | |
nationstates. How much anger is there directed towards him quiz | :04:25. | :04:28. | |
yellow I would not like to be David Cameron, because he called an | :04:29. | :04:42. | |
unnecessary referendum -- him? There was unfair criticism in his party of | :04:43. | :04:48. | |
the European Union in including under his leadership. There were | :04:49. | :04:52. | |
decades of misinformation of the British public about how the EU | :04:53. | :04:59. | |
works, and those have borne fruit. When you are describing a politician | :05:00. | :05:06. | |
in those terms, you have to conclude that it was fantastically | :05:07. | :05:12. | |
irresponsible and selfish? Well, is thought he would not to fill the | :05:13. | :05:17. | |
promise of the referendum because I don't think he thought he would win | :05:18. | :05:23. | |
the next general election. This has been a castrated move of historical | :05:24. | :05:28. | |
proportions. Another thing happening in Europe right now is a great deal | :05:29. | :05:34. | |
of vilification aimed at Boris Johnson, if anybody was the leader | :05:35. | :05:45. | |
of the Leave campaign, this was him. The spokesman for Jean-Claude | :05:46. | :05:52. | |
Juncker characterised, alongside Donald Trump and Marine Le Pen, as | :05:53. | :06:00. | |
the horror scenario for the Western world. Is that a helpful thing for | :06:01. | :06:04. | |
the European leaders to be saying right now, given the role that Boris | :06:05. | :06:12. | |
Johnson is almost certain to play? There have been many things said | :06:13. | :06:14. | |
about the European Union in this country. But these are the facts | :06:15. | :06:18. | |
that Britain is having to deal with. It is a British internal problem. | :06:19. | :06:27. | |
How tactful of you. You know these men quite well. You are an | :06:28. | :06:34. | |
experienced European politician and you have followed this campaign very | :06:35. | :06:37. | |
closely because you know British culture very well. I would like | :06:38. | :06:42. | |
characterise how you feel, for example, Boris Johnson handled | :06:43. | :06:50. | |
his... I feel extremely disappointed and with a sense of foreboding about | :06:51. | :06:56. | |
what has happened. They did things that I would like them not to have | :06:57. | :07:05. | |
done, and it is a terrible shame. Irresponsible? Look, this is... | :07:06. | :07:13. | |
Let's talk about the consequences of what has happened. We will, but one | :07:14. | :07:18. | |
final question. You are almost uniquely placed, you are a European | :07:19. | :07:25. | |
politician who knows Boris Johnson extremely well. He is hotly tipped | :07:26. | :07:34. | |
to be Britain 's next Prime Minister. Do you think he is the | :07:35. | :07:37. | |
right man for the job? It is not up to me to make that sort of a | :07:38. | :07:42. | |
judgement. You must have an opinion. Europe will deal fairly with whoever | :07:43. | :07:47. | |
your constitutional system throws up as the next leader, just as we will | :07:48. | :07:52. | |
deal fairly with the decision you have taken. It seems to me that | :07:53. | :07:58. | |
Europe is split, and here is how we get to how Europe will handle the | :07:59. | :08:05. | |
Brexit. Even on the discussion as to when Britain will actively trigger | :08:06. | :08:13. | |
Article 50, there are diverging views. Martin Schultz, the Speaker | :08:14. | :08:18. | |
of the European Parliament, has said it has to be now. He has said it has | :08:19. | :08:28. | |
to be the moment when Britain triggers Article 50. I understand | :08:29. | :08:34. | |
that some politicians in Europe would like this period of | :08:35. | :08:36. | |
uncertainty to be as short as possible. Legally, Britain is in the | :08:37. | :08:43. | |
lead on this. It is up to Britain. I understand not even your government | :08:44. | :08:48. | |
but the Parliament to have to activate Article 50 and the process | :08:49. | :08:52. | |
of leaving the EU. Coming back to this point about anger and to an | :08:53. | :08:58. | |
extent, punishment. The French Foreign Minister said, and he seemed | :08:59. | :09:06. | |
to be making a direct intervention into which is politics, he said a | :09:07. | :09:10. | |
new Prime Minister must be designated within a few days. Some | :09:11. | :09:15. | |
in Europe have said, we are fed up with Britain and they cannot dictate | :09:16. | :09:21. | |
the terms of the Brexit negotiation. Europe will start to dictate to | :09:22. | :09:26. | |
Britain. Do you think that is right? You are asking me to get involved in | :09:27. | :09:30. | |
an emotional discussion, I think that is unhelpful because Britain is | :09:31. | :09:35. | |
an important country that we want to have a friendly relationship with. | :09:36. | :09:40. | |
Let us deal with what has happened as competently and friendly as a | :09:41. | :09:49. | |
divorce can be. You are more of the Angela Merkel School of thought, we | :09:50. | :09:53. | |
have to recognise Britain and we need to give them some time and | :09:54. | :09:57. | |
space to figure it out before we start making too many demands or | :09:58. | :10:00. | |
telling them how things are going to be? We are dealing with very | :10:01. | :10:06. | |
important issues for millions of people. It is unhelpful... Some of | :10:07. | :10:16. | |
the emotions that have played in the referendum I think were misplaced. | :10:17. | :10:21. | |
Let's try to do with facts rather than emotions. Do you think the | :10:22. | :10:27. | |
European Union has a coherent plan for the post- British membership? | :10:28. | :10:32. | |
Europe doesn't need a plan, because we haven't done anything. You have | :10:33. | :10:35. | |
decided to Leave, you must have a plan. With all due respect, surely | :10:36. | :10:46. | |
you must have a plan to avoid the EU unravelling? That is EU business. | :10:47. | :10:50. | |
That is why the EU leaders are already agreeing to meet without | :10:51. | :10:55. | |
Britain. Your commission has already resigned. The shapers before the | :10:56. | :11:04. | |
European Council are meeting already. It is already at less than | :11:05. | :11:13. | |
it was in the European Council. It is, and yet it is also a lame-duck | :11:14. | :11:19. | |
member of the European Union? Politically, you are out, presently, | :11:20. | :11:26. | |
you white still in. But you are presumed to be outside of the club. | :11:27. | :11:32. | |
You were not only a member of the club, you are a member of the | :11:33. | :11:35. | |
committee. You thought the memberships were too high, is what | :11:36. | :11:39. | |
some of the new members were a bit common, and you decided to Leave. As | :11:40. | :11:48. | |
a Polish politician who has long experienced in government and the EU | :11:49. | :11:52. | |
forum, how do you feel about the absence of Britain? Poland on the | :11:53. | :11:57. | |
whole has been a very close ally of Britain on many issues. In my | :11:58. | :12:05. | |
limited way, I was doing whatever I could to persuade people to stay, | :12:06. | :12:10. | |
because you were a crucial voice for transatlantic relations, stabilising | :12:11. | :12:16. | |
the link for Liberal politics and economics. You were a very important | :12:17. | :12:22. | |
place to the balance of power internally in the EU. That will be | :12:23. | :12:27. | |
gone now and it is regrettable. That is why I regret this decision. I | :12:28. | :12:33. | |
want to come back to that and to the areas that you care about like | :12:34. | :12:38. | |
defence and security, but first the economy. There has been a lot of | :12:39. | :12:42. | |
talk about what will happen to the British economy. It seems, as of | :12:43. | :12:49. | |
today, that war is Johnson believes it will be relatively | :12:50. | :12:53. | |
straightforward for written to, in his phrase, negotiate full access to | :12:54. | :12:59. | |
the European single market as part of a Brexit negotiation. Do you | :13:00. | :13:03. | |
think he is right? That is an aspiration, not a plan. In other | :13:04. | :13:08. | |
words, you are saying, I have left the club, I am a member of the | :13:09. | :13:12. | |
public, but I would quite like to use the facilities. The committee | :13:13. | :13:17. | |
will meet and we will consider the offer. It is going to be very hard. | :13:18. | :13:31. | |
The Norway option... That includes freedom of movement of Labour. | :13:32. | :13:38. | |
Talking of Boris Johnson and his fellow Leave campaigners... Let's | :13:39. | :13:42. | |
get real. We voted for racks that, you in the European Union export 100 | :13:43. | :13:49. | |
billion euros of produce to the UK. We are so much bigger and more | :13:50. | :13:54. | |
important to you than Norway. Don't quote to us a deal you did with | :13:55. | :13:58. | |
Norway. Be realistic that you want a deal with us -- Brexit. We do, but | :13:59. | :14:11. | |
we can trade under the WTO regime, you can trade under the customs | :14:12. | :14:17. | |
union like Turkey, you can have bilateral agreements like | :14:18. | :14:19. | |
Switzerland, you can be in the economic area. Britain needs to | :14:20. | :14:24. | |
propose what it wants, because it and took the initiative to Leave. -- | :14:25. | :14:29. | |
Britain. Boris Johnson says the negative | :14:30. | :14:39. | |
consequences of Brexit have been widely overdone and the upside is | :14:40. | :14:47. | |
being ignored. As the German CBI reminded us, they will continue to | :14:48. | :14:50. | |
have free trade and access to the | :14:51. | :14:52. |