HARDtalk on the Road in Canada - Oil Sands HARDtalk

Coming up next on BBC News, it's time for HARDtalk.

Were doing about 150,000 a day. Can it go higher? It can. It overshadows

everything else. Alberta is producing some of the dirtiest oil

in the world. If we were all like that, the world would be in trouble.

It drops these are huge burning embers. There is enough seek oil

beneath my feet to me in Canada has the third-largest

oil third-largest reserves can deliver on its climate

change commitments while continuing to pump out huge amounts of oil.

welcome to my home. A very strange pleasure to be here. (MUSIC

PLAYING). . 6am at Calgary airport, I joined the ranks of Canada or your

commuters, the thousands who fly in to the vast oilfields for weeks at a

time. My guide is the executive vice president of Cenovus Energy, in

charge of oil sands production. We drive through miles of forest, Elks

and caribou, but underneath this wilderness is the biggest tar sands

or the reserve in the world. We are in the southern end of the deposit

stop we are currently producing 160,000 barrels a day. Let's get it

on. Cenovus Energy, this plant is a state-of-the-art oil system

extraction which belts melds the beach and within. A network of

pipelines runs through hundreds of square kilometres of forest. Cenovus

Energy promotes this as responsible production. No vast scars in the

landscape, no toxic lakes of waste. But it is highly energy intensive.

It disturbs one of the great wildernesses and produces millions

of barrels of fossil fuels and millions of tons of carbon emission.

It enriches Cenovus Energy and the economy but what does it do to the

planet? This is really the sharp end of the

operation, literally. LAUGHTER We are literally drilling new holes. It

depends on the thickness but it can have anyone between one - 2 million

barrels. Over its life.. This is what it is all about, our

cup of Canada's tar sands oil ready to go down the pipeline to the

world's consumers will not. I think the challenge is not really oil

production it is the carbon emissions associated with oil. What

we have unlocked is enabling this resource to be part of the energy

mix. In the last years we have dropped the intensity by over 33%.

But it is much more energy intensive than the oils reduced in the vast

reserves in the Middle East? It is a heavy oil, it takes more prizes and

technology. At a time when Canada is committed to reducing significantly

its carbon emissions, you are raising yours. It accounts for, you

know, less than 1% of global emission... In Canada it is much

more significant... In Alberta, the have the highest carbon levy put on

as well as an emission limit, you're not going to find that anywhere else

on the planet. I spoke to a senior official in green -- Greenpeace who

says the rest of Canada is basically going to have to shut down to meet

Canada's overall commitment. Climate change is one of the biggest

challenges we face today and we are part of that which means we are

going to be part of that solution and we have worked and are working

with the government, academia, that have come together to say this is

not an adversarial relationship but how do we come together and create

the solutions. But the easy solution and forgive me for being blindingly

simple, is for you to leave this tar sands oil in the ground. Any report,

oil is still going to be needed. We are going to need all forms of

energy. Goldman Sachs predicts it could go down to $25 a barrel. It

will continue to produce... But that too many people is the problem, not

only are you listening to the critique but also to the market. A

lot does not stop us. If we had to shut it down, for safety concerns,

the presses and revenue continues. Environmentalists have made it plain

that forest fires are getting worse and more severe in this part of the

world because of climatic change. Do you accept there is a link? It is

one of the biggest challenges of our time. We will continue to drive to

get oil and get to a zero State to use oil. The floods, the rain, they

are naturally changing. Climate change is something we have to take

care of. You are the kind of man changing it. It is naturally going

to continue to evolve and Acho. -- occur. Fort McMurray is the capital

of Alberta's tar sands region. It has been a boomtown, the population

swelling to 90,000. But in May 2016, a massive wildfire, they dubbed the

beast, swept through the forest around Fort McMurray and into the

town itself. This is what the beast left behind. Here we are approaching

your driveway. It has been obliterated. Welcome to my home stop

it is one of the strangest home visits I have ever made. You are

smiling and calm but this is your life? It just does not feel real. We

were shifting through the ashes trying to find anything. Were there

she is at that time? There has been a lot of tears. -- tears. Right now

you can divide four Murray into two - incinerated or untouched. The bulk

of the town was saved thanks to the fire crews led by the fire chief,

Darby Allen. The people here are devastated, everyone is devastated.

The community is devastated. This is going to go on and it will take us a

while to come back from it. You can see just a short distance away where

the forest has been impacted by the fire. The evidence is all around.

This is one of our commander posts throughout the incident. So the fire

was all in here, it jumped the river and we did not think it would jump

at the river... It is truly amazing. 1200 seat wise. You have flames five

feet in the air, it takes it up and then drops of these huge burning

embers on the other side and eventually it just went. What is

said to those, and they were not many, but they were loud, who drew a

connection between Fort McMurray's role as original headquarters of the

sands industry and the fact that in the end of the town suffered from a

fire they linked to climate change factors. Some of them said, you know

what, Fort McMurray had it coming. I would be upset from that statement.

It is a wonderful town, it has wonderful people. It gets painted as

a dirty old town but I do not see the link to this fire with industry

at all. Environmental conditions played a part because it was so dry

but what would they have us done? How do you control that forest to

make sure it is friendly in the future. It is a very difficult thing

to do. Life has returned to Fort McMurray, the forest will regrow but

the fire poured fuel on the flames of a raging debate. Are these kinds

of natural disasters linked to climate change? Is the warming tied

to the fossil fuel driven economy which Fort McMurray feeds?

Greenpeace has a profound problem with oil sands production? It is

because of the impact it is having, to climate, land, water, Indigenous

rates. We have a new Prime Minister in Canada who says the king could

the new with responsible reduction of tar sands oil and, at the same

time, deliver on all our Paris climate change commitments? The

signs that not match the Prime Minister's talking points. When you

look at oil sands and its development, you cannot continue to

expand and add 30 mega towns of emissions -- towns, and meet what we

said we were going to meet in Paris. On the contrary, you can introduce a

carbon tax which the provincial government in Alberta is committed

to. They are going to plough some of that money into renewable energy...

There are some good talking points. They are not just talking points,

they are facts, they have laid out a plan. A price on carbon is great but

the rise is substantially lower than it is not really going to change

consumer behaviour and industry behaviour. Movie into renewables is

great at the same time you have this looming climate disaster in the oil

sands that overshadows everything else. It is a fine for a full-time

activist such big contemplative pronouncements but, get real, they

cannot walk away from this massive potential reserve of oil. It is not

just Greenpeace that is saying this, international agencies as saying

that three quarters of oil fossil fuel reserves and need to be in the

ground. Our government has acted very irresponsibly in the past few

decades to build an economy around for the reserves and potentially it

has the capability of ending a life in the planet. You appear to be

blaming Fort McMurray because it is an oil producing centre for the fire

it brought upon itself. It seems very unreasonable.

We do not blame them for the tragedy that overtook the town. We do say

that climate change is having a severe impact and accelerating and

making those fires much worse. Can you prove that? We are outside of a

natural fire cycle, fire is a natural part of the cycle. I think a

lot of people in Fort McMurray just experienced a sign of climate

change. His Excellency, the Prime Minister of Canada. Earlier this

year, the new premier, just Trudeau signs of Paris climate change treaty

and promised to cut Canada's emissions. I'm a change will in test

our intelligence, our compassion and our will. That was the good news,

especially in Calgary. That is where Canadian big oil has its

headquarters. Downtown Calgary is a forest of

steel and glass. The oil sounds industry has put a lot of money into

the city and hundreds of thousands of jobs in two Alberta. That means

that the industry has a big political voice. Shannon Phillips is

Alberta's environment Minister. Her province has promised to play its

part in the carbonising Canada. But is that possible without weaning the

economy of tar sands oil? How much of the vast, vast amount of oil

under the soil in Alberta must stay under the soil if this province and

the nation of Canada is to be a responsible part of the effort to

control climate change. Companies are in the process of examining what

they have to see what can be developed under a low energy use

scenario. All of the companies we have at the table, and Roman group

and Indigenous peoples are examining bad and seeing what they can develop

most responsibly under the legislation. Let's be specific. I

will quote you one of the most influential environmentalists in

North America. He founded the -- group 350.org. He says most of what

is currently under the soil will have to stay there if Canadair is to

play their part. With all due respect to environmental groups

outside of this province, our primary responsibility is to the

people of Alberta. We have gone through a massive drop in oil prices

and tens of thousands of people are out of work. They are not the ones

who are making the decisions. Are you aware of how Canada seems right

now, particularly the oil sands industry. To quote the

environmentalists, Canada right now is a dangerous and destructive force

upon the fun at. Unconventional and extreme fossil fuels, like oil

sands, must stay in the ground. There will be all sorts of voices

and we bring them to the table. That voice is not at the table because

your stance is entirely contradictory to that. Your stance

is that by hook or by crook you will find a way to develop your oil sands

and bring something like 170 billion barrels of oil, potentially, you

will bring that to the surface. I think we need to back up and look at

the actual reserves and the companies who are sitting with us to

negotiate an emissions cap. It is account. Why do you not make it and

output cap? Why don't you tell the companies you will put a limit on

the amount of oil they can produce? We have to put a limit on emissions.

And that is the issue here, the carbon dioxide not the stands. But

this is highly carbon inefficient, the production of this sort of oil.

So if you want to deliver real emissions cuts you will need to cut

production. This facility produces at a clean conventional level. We

know it is possible and particular companies have those technologies

available. There is going to be a negotiation and a moving forward

under the legislated cap. Right now, as I understand it, your

oil sands industry emits something like 17 megatons of ring house gas

emissions per year. You have said the cap at 100 megatons. In the

context of the Paris agreement and the global decarbonisation plan that

is now out there, Alberta, far from being a key player is actually

giving licensed for an expansion, a major expansion, of emissions. I

would not characterise it as a major expansion. But what can you

councillor what I just said? In the first place, to put a cap on

emissions... But, with respect, you have put on a cap with which the big

oil companies love. They are happy. That suggests you have not been very

tough on them. The focus was environmental defence. One of

Canada's loudest environmental voices has led many highly

conflictual environmental campaigns and an institute that has been a

long-standing environmental voice here in Alberta. Additionally,

Indigenous Peoples stood with us on the stage that day. The rest of the

country will have to squeeze its emissions in a completely

unrealistic fashion. It has been said that if you hear Alberta you

reach a 100 megaton women and reddish Columbia Hills new gas

terminals that it is disgusting, it will be impossible for Canada or as

a whole to other emissions sufficiently to meet the 2030 Paris

targets that President Trudeau signed up to. There are a number of

hypotheticals and a number of ways we have not taken things into

account. We have been taking them into account. Reductions in methane,

for example. A respected institute has looked at that. If everyone were

to adopt a global carbon plan, the entire globe would be reaching its

targets. Alberta is producing some of the dirtiest oil in the world. If

everyone were like Alberta, the world would go to hell in a

handcart. In the interim, 20% of Canadian GDP relies on Alberta's oil

and gas industry. Short term. That is the phrase. Short term. So you

are saying Canada is stark. I don't know if I would use word stuck. I

think there is a load of opportunity there to add value to the resources

and find different ways of using them. Many people watching this will

be a way of Canada's most famous environmental voice, Naomi Klein.

She said right now Canada record on climate change years a crime against

humanity's future. Do you worry that here in Alberta you are a part of a

problem which is going to cost Canada dearly? In terms of

international reputation? I think what we are doing in Alberta is we

have taken our first steps to recognise that we have a problem and

to take action on it. I will make no apologies for it.

Canada does not want to be seen as one of the world's polluting powers.

But of the country insists on pumping out every drop of tar sands

oil, well, it is a label that may just stick.