Sara Khan, Director and Co-founder of Inspire HARDtalk

Kadiza Sultana was 16 when she ran away from her home in London to join

the so-called Islamic State group in Syria.

Her family have heard reports that she is dead -

It's hard enough to understand why young men join IS,

it's harder still to see what attracts women.

Sara Khan is at the forefront of efforts in the UK to prevent

Welcome to HARDtalk. Why do you think young women go to join IS? I

think we underestimate the influence, significance and

significance of propaganda across the world. They have used social

media like no other group has. They have been very successful in that

way and trying to understand the appeal for a young girl that third

generation of Muslims who the primary target is religion. It is

very easy to be manipulated people on the Internet, by women who are

saying this is a wonderful land, and there is nothing more powerful than

using the name of God. It is important to understand that ISIS

propaganda does not exist in a vacuum. In the UK there have been

Islamist ideas promoted by organisations, preaches, and the

reality unfortunately is there has been a mainstreaming normalisation.

Many young girls about gone to join ISIS. Do they think they are going

to be closer to God? They are fulfilling their religious

obligation. They are made to believe ISIS is that the promised utopia

that God has promised to Muslims. Religion does... Or are very

misconstrued understanding of religion have an impact. After three

girls left to go to Syria, you wrote an open letter, your organisation,

Inspire, it was written by Hugh and it was a letter read out in London

schools and it started, dear sister, you do not know me but like you I am

British and Muslim stop what was the aim of that letter? When I heard

about those three schoolgirls leaving London to join ISIS my heart

just broke. They had everything going for them in this country,

every opportunity and they chose to reject that full ISIS. I wanted to

say to other young girls who may be influenced by ISIS propaganda that

this is not the way. There is no illogical reality, the chances are

you coming back a slim, but look at what you are giving up for example,

your family, your mother. I wanted to speak to young girls very

directly because to be honest I did not feel we were giving enough

counter narrative to those young girls. It was reprinted around the

world, it was read in London schools but also downloaded. Was it saying

something that those girls did not already know? In some cases I think

they were not here in that argument full fee not intervention providers

working with girls who have been radicalised with ISIS would tell me

that they gave that letter to these young girls who had been persuaded

by propaganda and they found the argument compelling they were not

hearing that counter argument and again, what makes these girls of all

vulnerable is when they do not hear a counter argument, no one is sowing

the seed of doubt, what are they to do? The argument, some would

suggest, part of the reason it reached in is because it came from

you, from somebody who said I am a British Muslim woman. When you were

in your teens you were also listening to the teachings of

Islamist preachers? Yes, I was and that is why it could relate to what

these girls were going through. I was wearing a scarf, I was reading

the holy book. I could see how easy it is to become radicalised, to be

drawn to Islamist ideas. You reject your parents, your figures,

authority, I can totally understand where these girls were coming from.

He also said at the end of this letter, feel free to contact me

directly. Did many? No, they did not but I got a response coming through

fear not intervention providers and they were saying this is what they

are at telling us. Nobody contacted you directly? No. To be honest, I

was not really expecting them to contact me. I never expected the

letter to go viral. I wrote that letter partly out of frustration but

for at least one girl to read it and say, I am doubtful about going. I

did not expect anybody to contact me but it was as an option, if you feel

there is no one you can speak to whether it is your mother, your

teacher, there is a lifeline out there for you. You say it was out in

frustration that nobody was giving a counter argument. It is an

organisation called prevent, which is support and are involved in, is

that making a difference? Yes, I think it is but that does not mean

there are no flaws. Let's be honest, there is no single government policy

which is 100% perfect. Or a good aspects of event and areas that need

greater it improvement. The good aspects are that the government said

it has prevented 120 people from travelling, including 50 Muslim

children from travelling to Syria. 58th hours and illegal pieces of

material have been taken down. They have worked with Muslim groups,

flooding 20 million counter narrative videos. 30 community

projects. We are in partnership with Muslim groups. That is a success but

they are the negatives. You are saying this because it was held up

as one of the organisations that was not criticise. David Anderson, the

lawyer said that it is becoming a more significant source of grievance

in communities than the police and ministerial powers. The lack of

transparency, encourages rumour and mistrust. It has a big problems. I

will never deny their Rat no problems. I believe in Prevent. We

need a strategy. One that seeks to prevent people from being drawn into

terrorism. I overconcerned about the ovary forum by teachers, by some of

the quality of training. They have a legal duty to report a child? If

they have concerns about a child being radicalised that they do

something about it. One of the primary issues that I know keeps

rearing its head is that teachers often are not able to distinguish

between extremist and valid concerns. That is why you are seeing

an over referral. Should they have to refer them at all? The National

Union of Teachers rejected this policy because they said teachers

should not be the Secret Service of the Labour should be encouraging

discussion with students rather than stifling them. Nobody is asking them

to do that. Whether we are talking domestic violence, child sexual

exploitation, as a role as a teacher, if you think a child is

being groomed, radicalise, by a preacher online at- and I know of

many examples of- you need to do something to safeguard that child.

In order to tackle this ideology you need to have open discussion and if

a child is fearful of voicing what they think because they know their

teacher has a duty to report them, surprisingly -- unsurprisingly they

will not speak out. The mix around Prevent- this is a classic example,

a debate in the classroom. They have made it very clear that if they came

across any school where they were stifling debate on closing down

discussion, they would be concerned. But the argument is that the very

presence of that requirement to report has the effect of silencing?

I would disagree because if you are doing it the right training to

teachers, you should be saying to them to encourage discussion and

debate. For example. I went to a school where one head teacher told

me one man who was a member of the BNP, was radicalising a four-year

old son. That you should hate Muslims. Encouraging violence. The

same head teacher was then dealing with the case of a Muslim father

allowing his daughter to watch beheadings. You have to be aware

that these. If it is the case where parents are radicalising their

children and in some cases that is happening, school may be the only

place where a child is challenge. We need to encourage discussion. The

Prevent strategy has had... This is a widespread feeling voiced in the

Select Committee report with cross-party MPs... That rather as

being seen as a community led approach, it is perceived to be a

Big Brother operation and they and others have said that at the least

you need to change the name. It has become a toxic brand. I disagree

with the change of name, that will make no difference to people

actively opposing Prevent. Or a legitimate people who have concerns

that you have raised that have misunderstood parts of the policy,

and weaknesses that we need to improve but there is another section

of society who are deliberately peddling lies within Muslim

communities and I have evidenced that in the past, creating tension

within the community and making Prevent toxic. As a failure in our

society is not to acknowledge that. Let's turn to a row we have seen

going on in France and elsewhere as a result of the burkini. Beaches are

banning burkini. The band has been ruled as illegal and yet 20 mares

are saying they will not follow that ruling. That his been a suggestion

that the French people support the band on burkinis. Are you pose any

kind of band on swimsuits which in effect resembles a wetsuit. I do not

believe that is the way forward. I believe very much in the idea that

women should have the right to decide what to wear on their body. A

woman lying on a beach wearing burkinis is not harming anybody. We

need to address the widespread concerns that people may have but

taking such a Draconian measure is not helping the situation in France,

particular in dealing with terror atrocities. That debate, does it

reflect what is an increasing polarisation of the discussion about

Muslims in Western society? I think I am greatly concerned by that

debate because we are seeing that polarisation, the fear of Islam,

Muslims, and we are seeing the rise of the far-right in European

politics more generally and if you look at that discourse, it almost

mirrors what ISIS said that the idea that the world is divided into two

and we can never coexist. I think the challenge for all of us is to

oppose both extremes and work together to maintain that middle

ground, that compassionate coexistence, shared values and

common humanity. Where are you on VE veil? That the

veil. I did weather scarf. It wasn't culturally part of my family but I

want out of my own choice. Equally, I took it out my own choice as well.

In my early 30s. Why? A number of different reasons. When I grew

older, I read more widely that they were much more diverse logical

interpretation is where wearing a headscarf was not mandatory. Also,

for me, I reached a point where I was tired on the one hand of

religious Muslim clerics at assessing over women's bodies but

equally, I was tired of British society. Otafest with what women are

wearing. -- obsessed. There are far more important issues. It was almost

an act of rebellion against might work those sites of society and

saying that I would leave my life as I choose. There were so many Muslim

clerics that were using faith to advocate patriarchies. Was that part

of your thinking? Yes. One of the problems that face is contemporary

Islam today is the dominance of patriarchies. I feel it has ignored

the Muslim contribution, the women's contribution in Muslim history where

women were architects, State leaders, professors, they almost

seems to be a whitewashing of the power that Islam gives the women.

Again, it was a form of rebellion against the patriarchal

interpretations of Islam that continue to dominate today. When you

see a woman in an veil and use each women in an niqab, D think they are

victims of the patriarch it? No. I am clear that as a feminist and a

muslin that women have a right to wear what they want. I wore it and I

passionately believe that at the time that I was doing the right

thing. I would never say to another woman that you should take your

headscarf off. I would say to Muslim women who wear the veil, of course

in cases if you are giving evidence in court, you have to be sensible

but to be honest, most of the people but I know that whether niqab to

take their faces veil off but I would never dictate the women what

they can and can't... A separate. You wouldn't dictate, it is up to

them but you saw that wearing it is partly a result of the patriarch it

within the Islamic world, as you put it. I wonder why you are so hesitant

about applying VAT to other women? -- fat. -- that. Lowe since the

1970s, we have seen an increase of women wearing the sky. I have spoken

in the past. -- scarf. They are restrictive, degrading to women but

at the same time, I recognise the right for women to wear what they

want forced to equally, if they want to take it off but they have the

right. If the woman is wearing the full face veil, wearing the full

veil was bound to make cooperation between the two communities

difficult. What if they are a teacher, AGP, a charge? Could they

have full veil? I would encourage women to take it off and be sensible

in those situations. It is a contentious issue but that's where I

will stand. Really, to give the idea and to use the logical argument that

Islam is about commonsense, moderation, about recognising a

society that you are living in, the culture we are living in and to

appreciate that. I disagree with Jack Straw's argument that we have a

problem with difference. I do not. We embrace it in this country. It is

about being sensible. You say we embrace diversity but is at harder

to you? Is it harder to you to say what you want? Not really the stuff

is becoming harder within Muslim communities. The lack of tolerance

within the communities is a challenge and it is interesting to

me because when I speak to a lot of Muslim women and they fear that if

they would like to take their headscarf off my baby they will be

judged. -- they fear they will be judged. There is a lack of tolerance

within the community of different views. Is there a battle being waged

within the world, within Muslims, within Britain? Is it being waged

within? Into areas. Yes, within Islam. Where I believe that the dish

Islam should not embrace any kind is interpretation which encourages

discrimination, hatred or violence but it is a wider battle. We are

saying to the wider society that you need to stand with those Muslims who

are trying to fight for a vicious Islam. -- British Islam. The

quality. But as I have evidenced in my book, there are some Muslims that

will side with its -- Islamist instead. Who? Some organisations who

oppose the quality, gay rights, have no respect for democracy and who

will ultimately would like to live in other ways. You want more people

to stand up, Moores Muslims to stand up and say "Not in my name will --

not in my name. If you lack a figurehead? I get messages of

support I receive lots of e-mails. I have come to the conclusion that

there are always people in society that need to push the boundaries.

People have advocated the change whether it is human rights or other

issues, we have to press those boundaries. I am prepared to do

that. Howarth and you get threats? -- how often? I receive it on a

regular basis. I am saying the things that need to be said, though.

We need to talk about the idea of British Islam. Why do we have

13-year-old girls in our country who feel no affiliation to this country,

despite the fact they have been born and raised it by to a long distant

faraway caliphate? Something has gone wrong. Why are we seeing the

murder of Muslims by a Sunni Muslim, there is something going on wrong

with the community. Raising Matt, is that enough to get the abuse for

you? That is. Partly I can see that in a climate of anti- Muslim

prejudice, White air your dirty laundry? It is something we should

do because all you are doing is feeding the far right, to attack us.

Again, to me, that is not a sensible option. We can speak out against the

far right who speak out against Islam but we have to address the

intolerance in our own backyard. Has it made you question your own faith?

In what regard? You have mentioned in the past that it has done that. I

had never questioned my own faith because of the grief but I have

because when I see groups like ISIS, justifying the rape of UCD Dell 's

or manipulating to justify their parity whether it is blowing up

churches and justifying the stoning of women. -- Yazidi girls. But I

know what my faith advocates stop instead of having to leave Islam, I

must reclaim it. That is the same message I give to others. When we

know extremists are hijacking our faith, we must reclaim it. If we are

silent, it is the extremists who will be left to define Islam. What

price are you paying for that? I have had to call the police. I have

sometimes had to have police accompany me to events. The abuse I

get is on a daily basis. To say it is part of my job description. I

feel it is a vital worth fighting for because it is not just about

muslins or my children, it is a battle that will impact all of us in

our society and country. Sara Khan, thank you very much for coming on

the day. -- today.