Nathan Law, Member of Hong Kong's Legislative Council HARDtalk

Welcome to HARDtalk. I am Stephen Sackur. The pro-democracy Umbrella

Protests in Hong Kong a couple of years ago ended up as something of a

damp squib, but the young leaders of the movement haven't disappeared.

Nathan Law has just won a seat in Hong Kong's Legislative Council and

he's at the head of a so-called localist movement demanding a

referendum on self-determination for the territory. Will Beijing try to

silence Nathan Law? THEME PLAYS. Nathan Law, welcome to HARDtalk.

Hello. Hello, everyone. You are in Hong Kong. Let me start by asking

you to reflect on the Umbrella Protests which you were very much

involved in. What lesson to you draw from their failure? The Umbrella

Movement, actually, by the end of the Umbrella Movement, we didn't get

political reform to lead Hong Kong in a democratic direction. We don't

have a direct seat on the Legislative Council. But I feel like

there is a huge legacy left to us. A lot of people are actually being

politically enlightened. So, there are lots of people getting really

active in our society. Attendance in this recent election are the highest

ever. That reflects on the Umbrella Movement. Let us and pick this a

bit. You were a 21 21-year-old demanding democracy in the vote for

the Chief Executive of Hong Kong. Here you are, two years later, not

as an outsider on the streets any more, but as something of an

insider, who stood for election and won a place in the Legislative

Council is up the have you made that transition from our guide --

outsider to insider? The reason we wanted to participate in that

Legislative Council election is we hoped we could get a sustainable

political influence in society. As you know, the social movement has

its ups and downs. The influence of that may fluctuate. If you want to

push for a new direction of a democratic movement it means that

they last for years. So I believe that for us it is very important for

us to get into the system and get the resources and influence. If I

might stop you there, Gregory, you're hard line colleagues would

say you have been co-opted by the system and have bowed before the

power of the Chinese backed system. -- Nathan Law, your hardline. I

believe it is not contradictory for us to get into the council. For us

to have social movement, that gets us resources and influence for us to

facilitate our movement. That is a co-operate in system for us. I

suppose the point is that even to stand for election in the council

you had to make compromises. Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe you

signed an oath of loyalty which basically required you to agree that

Hong Kong was, to quote the oath, an inalienable part of China, and that

he would accept criminal prosecution for denying that concept. So, some

of your colleagues, as I say, some of the other student protest

leaders, refused to sign that and refused to sign for election, but

you happily signed it. Well, actually, for every participant in

the Legislative Council, we have to sign that. And for the others who

are signing up for candidacy, they also signs that paper. For other

people, they know that it is kind of a compromise, but not compromising

our beliefs. It is just a process. For us, we still fight for

self-determination. It is crystal clear. It is not crystal clear at

all. If you have signed an oath saying that Hong Kong is an

inalienable part of China, then what is the self-determination joys all

about? If there is no choice to pursue a separate future and

determine you want to break away from China, then there really is not

a legitimate choice, is there? Let us make it clear, the oath and paper

we signed is to respect the basic law. There will be amendments in the

basic law which the first article saying that Hong Kong is a part of

China, but, actually, there is possibility they will and meant

that. And the rights of amendment is written in black and white in the

basic law. -- amend. Upholding self-determination does not violate

basic law. As Hong Kong people, we should have an opportunity and a

choice to determine our future. The question is, you know, how realistic

is the choice? I will quote a respected academic who studies Hong

Kong or the time and is based in the UK, Steve Sanger, in the university

of Nottingham, he says Beijing will not tolerate an independent Hong

Kong, or even a significant January form of self-determination. --

genuine. That is the truth, isn't it? For us, we are looking for 2047.

That is not the near future, but that is what we have to prepare for.

That moment could bring a change. For now, I don't know whether we

could really get that, but that is the direction we have the head in.

Hong Kong people deserve higher autonomy. It is one thing saying it

and it is another getting real change. I wonder what you could

achieve in the Legislative Council. I mean, congratulations, you did

well to win a seat, and I think you took some people by surprise, but

the bottomline is that there are at least 40 of the 70 seats in the

Legislative Council owned by a pro-China parties and politicians.

Realistically, there is very little you could hope to achieve. Well,

first, thank you for the congratulations. Second, I believe

that as I have mentioned, getting resources out of the council is very

important. And for the other part, we can deliver in the council to

stop the laws that are not getting support from the public in the

council, and that is important. That is because, for now, the system of

the Legislative Council allows the very minority interest class to

control the middle. When we talk about this new local last movement,

people like you who are really pushing for self-determination in

Hong Kong, not the old style pan democratic politicians are but a new

style of more radical self-determination advocates, you

are not that many in the council. -- localist movement. Only half a dozen

or more. I am not sure the filibustering will take you far. I

feel there is room for cooperation. Actually, in the pan Democrats there

are many who support self-determination. I feel it is

clear. There are rooms and consensus among them. How far are you prepared

to push confrontation with the Chief Executive and all those in Hong Kong

who in essence are backing the current status quo and are

supportive of China? Because, you know, China, after the recent

elections, they were probably taken aback that you did so well. The

Chinese government issued statements talking about, quiet, resolute

opposition to any form of Hong Kong independence activities, warning

that any actions that violated basic laws and China's laws would be seen

as a threat to China's sovereignty and security. -- quote. Are you

prepare to have a showdown with Beijing? That same wording appeared

long before the fight for democracy. It is a sign of separation in Hong

Kong and China. That is a mental threat coming from mainland China. I

believe that if our notion is getting support from the massive

public and it results in the result of the election, we should have that

freedom to express our will, even though I am not pushing for

independence, I believe that having that freedom to express that

political opinion is one of our core values and cornerstones. So far I

have offered you congratulations and suggested you did very well in the

election. But now, it was the argument a little bit. Yeah, you do

pretty well, but the bottom line is you guys on the radical end of the

self determination argument did not have the mass support of the Hong

Kong people. Most people in Hong Kong are more concerned about bread

and butter economic issues than they are about basic law and

constitutional arguments. Well, that is the thing that we want to change.

Going back to the Occupy movement, those who came out to protest were

from the pro-Beijing camp. So we got a load of support and enlightenment

in society. I don't mean that it is not a situation where Hong Kong

people are sick of the poor governance from CY Leung, actually,

he is the one majority Hong Kong people oppose. So that is really,

really simple for us. Obviously we know that we are not majority in the

council but we want to push for a change that is the direction we will

go. CY Leung, the Chief Executive, you see the people are not with him.

But all the signs are that either he is going to be nominated again in

2017 to be Chief Executive again, or somebody quite like him who is very

friendly to Beijing will be nominated in his place. If that

happens, how can you stop it? That is the problem

of Hong Kong now. The electoral system,

actually for the people, even though we are in

the majority, over 55% of them, That is the problem we are facing

and we are fighting for reform One of the ironies here is that

you and your colleagues in the protest movement

and in the Legislative Council as well, you block a change

in the system that would have at least allowed Hong Kong

voters to have a vote Because of your disagreement

with that approach, we are back to the old status quo where just

a thousand people will choose the Chief Executive,

you could have had a larger electorate and you

chose to block it. It was not in the Hong Kong

democratic system, if you carefully take a look at the proposal,

the candidate has to be approved by more than half of the people

in the 1200 election committee and that means the Beijing

government have full power of electing who comes out

to run for the election. That means Hong Kong

people have no choice, they have to choose only for those

who are from Beijing and who is appointed

by Beijing Council. That has to be made very clear,

it is not progress, You may put it that way,

but I am tempted to say isn't About wanting a different system,

genuine democratisation and a different system,

they are all whistling in the wind as long as the reality is that China

completely dominates Hong Kong, More than 40% of the overseas trade

goes direct to mainland China. In terms of leverage,

China holds all the cards and the people of Hong Kong know it

and most of them accept it. Well, I think that also shows how

important Hong Kong is to China. That is one thing that

we could fight for, Sorry to interrupt, it is very rude,

but how can you successfully fight China when China holds

all the economic cards? Hong Kong needs China much more

than China needs Hong Kong Well, I believe as Hong Kong people,

of course we know that We have to defend our autonomy

and our human rights. I believe that it is not that

Hong Kong needs China, there is a trade agreement,

if Hong Kong is not part of China, then there may be a situation where

we could sign up to an agreement. I think many people

from Hong Kong would Look at the reliance of Hong Kong

on Chinese customers, Chinese trade, Even things like your water supply,

your electricity, your food supplies, you are completely reliant

on mainland China. That is why we propose we should

have our autonomy in our resources. If you look very carefully

at Hong Kong tourism, we rely on a lot of high-quality

foreign tourists instead As Hong Kong people,

we need higher autonomy otherwise That is the basic cornerstone

of one country system. It is a singular and separate system

between Hong Kong and China and we cannot merge into one,

and that leaves the uniqueness and the competitiveness

of Hong Kong. it is you who wants

to change the status quo, and I wonder what message,

if you were successful, what message would that bring

to the people of Tibet, are you aware of how sensitive this

is to the Chinese If you think the current situation

in Hong Kong is the status If you take a look very carefully

on Hong Kong's index on freedom, any side of freedom, media,

speech, demonstrations, Policies have been implemented

to not respect our freedom, We are not the ones who disrupt,

the Beijing government We go back to the original idea

of one country system... Our internal issue is not

being dealt with by the That is one thing that

we want to achieve. We want Hong Kong to become

a city with autonomy. You talk about repression and I am

very well aware that after the 2014 protests, you yourself ended up

arrested for incitement. You were sentenced to 120 hours

of community service. Are you worried, particularly

yourself because of your personal situation, your mother

is from mainland China, you have family in mainland China,

are you worried not only about your personal safety

but the safety of your family? As the current situation,

I believe if I fight more bravely, then my family will be more safe,

because they know that I am in the spotlight and they are not

to harass them with a high I believe that it is very important

for us to force out and be brave. That is quite a gamble

you are taking, your belief that the more you speak out

and the more you fight, the more the Chinese government

will be fearful of doing anything Well, for fighting for higher

values, I am prepared It is really difficult for me

to think of any situation That is one thing that the Beijing

government has to face The China of autocracy should not

exercise those brutal powers on the ordinary people

and on the freedoms we enjoy. I just wonder if there is any sense

in which you fear that in Hong Kong itself there is something

of a feeling of xenophobia You are an interesting case

because your family are split between the Hong Kong groups

and the mainland Chinese, but when we see people

protesting about the degree to which the Chinese,

their shopping habits, are creating shortages in Hong Kong

or pushing up real estate prices and some Hong Kong people referred

to the Chinese as locusts. That is a very unattractive trend

in Hong Kong, is it not? Well, I oppose any behaviour

spreading hatred towards all What I have been doing is targeting

the Communist party. I oppose framing them

as locusts, that is one It is a problem of the government

and we should express more concerns about the situation

of mainland China's people. You are the youngest member

of the Legislative Council You pointed out to me that the basic

law system comes to an end in 2047, what on earth do

you think will happen? You will be still alive God willing,

what do you think will happen after the 50-year

arrangement comes to an end? I hope that Hong Kong

people will have the right That is what I am striving for,

the reason why I wanted To be clear, you do not

believe that Hong Kong If the Chinese government keep

repressing the Hong Kong people, then there will be more and more

people having problems and having these doubts towards

the one country system, and that is what is

happening now, I feel. The truth is we are talking

about a country of well over a billion people,

and you in your territory There will only be one

result if there is a clash between Hong Kong and Beijing,

and you are not going I do not think such kinds

of problems are being counted in the population

or the powers like this. I believe in the future,

Hong Kong, as you say, may be comparatively a small city,

but it has very high competitiveness in its economy and its unique

cultural background. There will be a moment in 2047

that we may have the right I believe it is just like the other

examples in other places where there are referendums

talking about independence. We are almost out of time,

I wanted to quote the late Lee Kuan Yew,

who led Singapore for so long. Hong Kong people must

accept a basic reality, in 50 years' time it will be one

country, one system, Well, for the Hong Kong people,

they do not accept that, and I believe that is the consensus

of the Hong Kong people. It is not just me or the supporters

of me from my camp. It is completely unacceptable,

because the original idea of one country, two systems,

it is to protect our values. The fight goes on, but we have

to end the interview right there. Nathan Law, thank you very much

indeed for joining me on HARDtalk.