Kieran Conway, Former Director of Intelligence for the IRA HARDtalk

Welcome to HARDtalk from Dublin. I am Stephen Sackur. This building,

the GPO, is intimately connected with Ireland's long struggle against

British rule. In recent times, of course, that struggle focused on

Northern Ireland, which remained part of the United Kingdom after the

Republic got its independence. My guest is a Dubliner who joined the

IRA as a gunman and a bomb builder. Remarkably, he has become a top

lawyer in Dublin. A remarkable story. How does Kieran Conway

justify his past? THEME PLAYS. Kieran Conway, welcome to HARDtalk.

We are going to be talking a lot about your past. And as you sit here

in Dublin today, I just wonder whether you feel very connected to

your past, or whether it feels like another land with which you have

left entirely? No, it is another country. It really is. The war is

over. I don't really even think about it or have nightmares. I was

involved in various activities. Know I am a defence lawyer in Dublin and

my life is a million times better than it was in the 70s and 80s. Was

that break instant? You quit the IRA... It happened on the night of

the Downing Street declaration. The assembly of the British Prime

Minister and the Irish Prime Minister. Which, in essence, was the

signal that the leadership of the IRA had decided to go down the path

of compromise. Insofar as they were saying that there would never be a

united Ireland without a consensus. There would never be a united

Ireland, certainly in my lifetime, as a result of that. I accepted

that. Did you leave the IRA with fury in your heart? Not with fury.

But a sense of inevitability. I felt myself it was time for the war to

stop. We had clearly been bitten by the British. -- beaten. Volunteers

had been killed. So it was a sense of defeat? Oh, yes. But you weren't

allowed to say that and talk in a defeatist manner. You would have

been in serious trouble. Rewind a long wait now and go back to a young

Kieran Conway. You were a middle-class child and were set to

go to university and for a comfortable Irish life. Yet you took

an extraordinary decision. You were determined to join the IRA. Why?

Well, I went to university in 1968, the autumn of 68, against a backdrop

of student reforms all over the world, especially in France, and to

a lesser extent, the UK. Also the US. The Vietnam War, South Africa,

so on. And, umm, although why did not join anything in the first year,

I depart in many protest. In 1969, Catholic areas were attacked by a

combination of RUC, the police force in the north, and loyalists, and

many, many houses were burnt down and people were killed and injured.

The IRA at the time was not in a good state. But they defended those

areas as best they could with small numbers. That led directly to the

birth of the provisionals, those are satisfied with the leadership and

direction the IRA was taking. They broke away. They recruited. And I

eventually joins them. I can see how in that period of 1969,

revolutionary fervour in campuses around the world, I can see how you

got swept up in that. You were a radical socialist. Idea that. But

the determination you had to go to Belfast and even to go to England,

to actually join an underground secret military organisation where

you knew, and actually sort out, the opportunity to use guns, to consider

planting bombs, to commit acts of violence. -- sought. That is a fact

of a step appeal it was clear a situation had appeared in Ireland.

-- heck of a stop. Many people had done it. But that was a lot of talk

for many. You must have been prepared, even as a young man of 20,

to consider killing people. Absolutely. I accepted that as part

of the price of it. The price of joining the IRA. People were

definitely going to be killed. And you were going to do it? Yes, I was

quite repaired to do it, yeah. You went to England? I went to England

the very next day. I guess what I am seeking to understand is how you

reacted to your first operations, because, I know, in England, you are

asked, and indeed, you were enthusiastically a part of, armed

robbery, to raise funds for the IRA. My first IRA operations were all

robberies We were told we would be not claimed by the IRA in the event

of our arrest. You found that easy, too much into a bank and wave a gun

around and tell people to get on the ground? Yeah. After the first couple

of raids I was actually put in charge of the active service units

over there. I was promoted quickly. What about bombing? No, we didn't do

any bombing in England in those days. The bombing came later. But

you learned, whether it was in Northern Ireland, or were over, you

were learning it. I was trained in eight Midland city. Back in Ireland

I attended two training camps. Then my unit was caught after a

particular armed robberies. They were all. I knew Scotland Yard were

after me. I was coincidence Ryback in Ireland at the time. And it meant

that the leadership were kind of stuck with me. It drove me mad. Then

I worked with the IRA. You have written extensively about your

experiences with the IRA. You have never, it seems to me, the entirely

straightforward about the violence you were involved in. Did you kill

people? Umm, put it this way, I mean, this is the truth, the only

people that I ever fired on were a British soldiers, British soldiers

did die when I was present... And firing at them? Yeah. But I cannot

be sure that I killed them. So you kill them? The possibility is there.

And you planted bombs? Yes, and they exploded. And you kill people? No

casualties, ever. May be a half-dozen, maximum. I did a lot

more shooting. An awful lot more. Maybe 100 times. And British

soldiers were killed on a number of occasions. Not any more than 5-6.

You were in press and, allegedly, 40 legal possession of weapons of. --

imprisoned. You ended up with a lot of other IRA is prison is. And you

were part of an IRA hunger strike. I was, yeah. At any parts during this

time, when you were not taking on food and getting weak and were

reflecting on whether your life and death are worth it for this cause,

did you ever have any doubts? Not the slightest. I was totally

committed. In the way that only a 21-year-old can be. How close to

death did you come? No, I was a long way away from it. Though during the

first hunger strike, we did not know how our bodies would fare. Billy in

a Belfast prison at the time put five on a hunger strike on the first

week. I was in a third report. We did only 23 days. -- cohort. I lost

a couple of stone but there was no damage. I guess you met the top

brass. The chief of staff... He was my sponsor, if you like. He thought

highly of me and persuaded leadership outside that they should

take a similar view of me. So within a month I had been given the job of

Director of Intelligence. What was your responsibility? There had been

no intelligence department before the split. So, I was in charge of

building and intelligence department from scratch. -- an stop if from the

get go, you are finding people with better resources than you had. The

British authorities had various different intelligence services and

police units tasked with fighting the IRA. They penetrated holes in

your organisation like a sieve. Yes, they did, but in the mid- 70s I got

out of jail. I left the IRA for a number of years. Mid 75. During the

year I was in charge of intelligence, there was far less

input race and then subsequently. There was in full trash and? There

was and inform us, but nothing like the level that they penetrated the

IRA in the 80s. -- infiltration. -- informers. 1984, a crucial year that

raises questions to this day of your ethics and your brawl. In essence,

we are talking about one major attack that the IRA launched in

Birmingham in 1984. Bombs placed in pubs with old and airy IRA -- and

airy people in Birmingham. Not military personnel. You are Director

of Intelligence. Did you know... I didn't know anything about it.

Afterwards, when I heard about the bombs, I was horrified. Shouldn't a

Director of Intelligence be involved... Not really. That is not

the way that the IRA operates. It is generally post-hoc. You are telling

me there was an operation conducted out of control? Absolutely. It was

out of what was permitted. I don't know why the people in charge

weren't caught for that. In your view they should have been

reprimanded? They should have been, for conducting an attack on two

targets that were not within our limits. If you feel that, why have

you not fully cooperated, in all the years since, including this year,

when I gain you have been called on by the police to find out what

unfolded. You have never been fully cooperative. The names of the

bombers are well-known. I know that other people have come forward, but

you have never why? I would only be repeating what they said. I would

never finger an IRA man. You would never do that, even though you

regard this as the most terrible, callous, immoral act? I don't want

to put words in your mouth, do you think it is those things? I do.

Yeah, but, I blame the local leadership in Birmingham for it.

They were just doing what they were told to do. There was supposed to be

a warning. In that sense, the operation might have, you know,

fallen on the side of legitimacy if the warning had gone through.

Really? There is a real contradiction there. You have said

in the past that there is no way that a part that was not known to be

a horns of military personnel should be a Target. -- haunt. It was still

not full of military personnel, it was... I agree. It should not have

happened. In that case, why, and you have set it in this interview, you

are still withholding one piece of information. Only the name of the

second man who conducted it. why? Because he is living. The

victims' families are still living and they cannot rest until they feel

that justice has been done. This man, is told the police, was

involved. But you haven't told the police of the police don't know his

name. Isn't it at least your moral duty to lay out what you know,

particularly given the way you feel about it? I don't accept any

responsibility in relation to doing this. Ever? You will take it to your

grave? If he does before I die, then I will reveal it. Do you think your

entire trajectory and the attitudes and what you did for the IRA would

have been different if you had had kids? Going back to Julie one more

time, she said he doesn't consider the bombers murderers, but I wonder

what he would say if one of his own kids was killed in this way, all of

their skin stripped of their bodies when he sees them with no legs, no

arms, when they have been bombed so badly you can't see their faces

because of the injuries. That is the feeling of a woman who has lost a

sister in the bombings, and you didn't have children. Wouldn't you

think you are have been more humane? I'm not sure I wasn't humane, as I

say. When we were bombing targets we at least gave warnings, unlike the

British. So no, I don't accept that we didn't try to be humane. Although

there are at least half a dozen occasions on which I think

individual IRA men and their commanders could be prosecuted for

war crimes, even now. Have you told what you know to the police on that

basis? No, I have not. No. Let me get my head around this. We are not

talking about Birmingham necessarily, but you believe you

know things which could be part of a prosecution for war crimes of

individuals in the IRA, and you will not disclose that information. No,

that's correct. I will never get the name of an IRA member under any

circumstances. Under any circumstances, however egregious? If

I end up before the High Court in proceedings for contempt, I would go

to prison rather than name any living IRA member. Try to explain to

me the morality of that. Because I don't get it. If you believe in war

crimes... The morale of that is very straightforward. As far as though it

is not trouble at all. As far as I'm concerned I was engaged in a just

war. I stand behind everything I did. I was fortunate that all the

things I did were clearly legitimate, firing on British

soldiers and a handful of bombings that I engaged in. Let's talk about

what you now feel about some of those men that you knew quite well,

Martin McGuinness you knew quite well, he is one of the key

politicians in the devolved government in Northern Ireland,

representing Sinn Fein. Gerry Adams, I imagine you knew him very well. I

knew McGenniss lot of them I would note Adams. I would consider her

personal friend, particularly during the early days, when I was in Derry,

and again in the mid- 70s. And yet even at the beginning of this

interview you pointed out that you felt that the process that McGenniss

and Adams and the rest of them at the top of the IRA engaged in any

early 90s, which led ultimately to the Good Friday Agreement and to

what we now see as power-sharing and every thing else, you feel it was a

betrayal. It was a betrayal. There is no doubt about that. What they

did was they accepted the British position, which was the position of

the IRA had fought against the 25 years. And the terms were such, what

can that be but a betrayal? Or you could also view it as a recognition

of reality, and I called Gerry Adams, and the book, I refer to him

as a malicious, lying bustard. At the same time it is a fact and he

deserves credit for it that he single-handedly admitted he had

collaborators, and he had managed to get McGenniss to agree with him,

which surprised me. But you know, in broad terms, he single-handedly

brought peace to Ireland, and... A piece that you recognise, and

acknowledge? I acknowledge it, even though I still agree in Irish unity.

I believe Ireland would be better off. Do you still believe in

revolution? Revolution have has kind of had its time, the younger

generation are not interested. Sorry to interrupt, but that's not

entirely true. There are still remnants, the groups of the old

Provisional IRA. They call themselves everything from the real

IRA, the new IRA, and you as a lawyer in Ireland sometimes

represent these people, reticent who are alleged to be members of these

groups, with arms and explosives and everything else that go with it. I

represented clients from all three IRA parties, very grateful for the

work. You don't ever... Everything we have discussed in the past and

the way you feel about the past, you don't ever say to yourself, I want

nothing more to do with these people? No, I don't, no. On behalf

of anybody, I am not judgemental. I may have my own Private view, but

the most important thing for a defence lawyer is between clients,

and we take on anybody, no matter how horrendous The Axe that they

have been accused of. Some people in the intelligence and police in

communities say that they have an ideological position on continuing

the fight for a united Ireland, but actually they are just criminals and

thugs. They are defending turf, loud peddling drugs, they are involved in

protection rackets, and some would say that actually that is what the

Provisional IRA became, as well. No, the Provisional IRA were never

criminals, although in the border areas, obviously... You are a self

acknowledged bank robber. Yes, and so is armed robbery, I don't agree

with that, but there are certain ones who are involved in drugs, and

criminal activity of that sort. I am quite certainly not. Are you? Yes.

You know what happened to all the money you robbed? I was never

involved in the finance department. On what basis could you possibly be

confident that some of that money was not going to people's back

pockets? Well, I can't, in 1971, we shot a volunteer in the legs for

stealing a tenner after an armed robbery. So that was something that

was completely unacceptable, any sort of personal gain. And it is

shocking, it shocks me, that a lot of people in Belfast in particular

seem to have benefited terribly, and have become very, very rich from the

struggle, however they did it. I think that is an absolute disgrace.

It is interesting, we have the end very soon but it is interesting, you

make a point and you look from the south and you look from Dublin at

what is happening in Belfast, and a visit in many ways you feel that

what you see represents defeat, and a corrosive sort of failure of the

Republican militant movement. Do you ever wish, my God, I wish I had

never got involved in the whole mess? Not really, that is simply on

a philosophical basis. I accept responsibility for the solutions,

and on one reading I wasted 25 years. US the 25 years in your life,

you were involved in a struggle which killed an awful lot of people,

some of them -- war and military uniform, some of whom didn't, and

were innocent civilians, and you have acknowledged that, and in the

end as you talk about defeat for your movement, to talk about

surrender, to talk about failure, what on earth was the point? Well,

when we started off it didn't look like that was going to be the

outcome, that it historically is. But judged on outcomes, you should

never have gone there, never have engaged. No, if I thought that they

might be the outcome, I wouldn't have gone near it, no, of course

not. And a final thought about the place you live in, Ireland, which of

course for so long has been in a sense shaped by conflict between the

Irish and the British, do you think, either in your lifetime or beyond

your lifetime, it is conceivable that Ireland will be a united

Ireland? No, I don't. As long as the unionists are unwilling to have a

united Ireland, and they will always be unwilling to have a united

Ireland, that is their basic position, there is no prospect for

Irish unity. Doesn't matter any more? We talk about the European

Union, obviously there is a lot of discussion about what Brexit means,

both for Britain and for Northern Ireland in particular, and how it

will relate to the border between the North and the south of Ireland.

Does that matter? Probably not, nationalism is a 19th-century

construct. And we accept being part of Britain itself, which has voted

to leave the EU. But when it comes to where you are, as a person, your

history, you sleep easier at night? I have never had any trouble

sleeping. No guilt, no nightmares. Kiaran Conway, we have two end

there. Thank you for being on HARDtalk.