Qubad Talabani, deputy prime minister, Kurdistan Regional Government HARDtalk

Welcome to HARDtalk, I'm Stephen Sackur. Don't be misled by the

battle currently raging in the Iraqi city of Mosul, where Kurdish forces,

the Iraqi army and actors from outside, like the US and Iran, all

seem united in their desire to vanquish so-called Islamic State.

The unity is skin deep. Today my focus is on Iraq's Kurds. There in

internal divisions and strategic ambitions. My guest is the Deputy

Prime Minister of the Kurdish region, Qubad Talabani. Is Kurdish

independence and inflammatory illusion?

Thank you, Stephen. Let's start by reflecting on what is happening in

Mosul. There we see Peshmerga Kurdish forces working with others

to try and liberate the city from the control of so-called Islamic

State, it makes the Kurds looked like a coherent, united force. But

you're not, are you? We're united on the battlefront and we've been

united throughout this conflict against ISIS. We've been able to,

with Iraq and with the support of the international co- elation, not

just defend the boundaries of Kurdistan, but make significant

inroads into damaging this group and forcing them back and actually being

very successful in the task that was given to us in the operation to

liberate Mosul. But back home, if I can put it that way, far from the

frontlines there are internal divisions, there's poor governance,

in a sense there is chaos. There are divisions and there's political

rivalry and political rivalry is at times healthy, at times it's an

obstacle to some of the reforms that we are trying to take in our

government. I wouldn't define it as chaos, but I think that there are

genuine questions being asked by the political parties of each other

regarding the current state of affairs of Kurdistan and its future.

Genuine questions is good because I've got plenty of genuine

questions. Let's start by looking at the agenda that your forces have

when they go into battle against Islamic State in the so-called

caliphate, which obviously runs across a swathe of Northern Iraq. It

seems to me looking at the words of your commanders on the ground that

they believe when they" Liberate" territory, they're going to keep it

for the Kurdish region. Is that the way you see it, is that the way it

should be? We have an agreement, a trilateral agreement between Iraq,

the Kurdistan and the United States that areas that we liberate after

the beginning of operations to liberate Mosul will be handed back

to the Iraqi authorities, the Mosul authorities. But Kurdish areas that

have been liberated from Mosul are Kurdish areas and the Kurdish

security forces will administrate those areas. That statement within

30 seconds completely confused me, on the one hand you said you will

hand them over to the forces of the national Iraqi government and in the

next breath you say some of them you're going to keep for yourself. I

tell you what your president Masoud Barzani says, these areas were

liberated by the blood of our martyrs and our wounded, it's not

possible after all these sacrifices to return them to direct federal

control. There's a vast swathe of territory here we're talking about

and I don't think we can at it as one blanket piece of territory.

There are areas that are clearly Kurdish, dominated by Kurdish

populations, Kurdish populations that have historically suffered

horrendous abuses by the former Iraqi government and then recent

genocide carried out by ISIS. These areas that are predominantly Kurdish

that fall within the boundaries of Kurdistan are well within the

authority of the Kurdistan and to secure these areas. But some of them

with respect are only Kurdish because it's quite clear from

evidence, tumour lights watch have presented and Amnesty International

and other independent observers, certain towns and these villages

that your forces, Peshmerga forces, have cleared out the Sunni Arab

population and we know from satellite imagery that in certain

cases they have used bulldozers to raze villages to the ground. We are

not in the land grabbing business. What is that about? We are about

defending Kurdistan from the most stream terrorist group that has set

foot in Iraq, that has caused immeasurable damage to the people of

the country, to Arabs in the country, to sunnies in particular,

to Kurds and the Yazidis, Christians and other members of the communities

of Iraq. The Kurdish forces are in charge of protecting the Kurdistan

in first and foremost. Some of the accusations levied against us we

have responded to. I would like you to respond directly, Donatella

Rivera, Amnesty International senior prices were sponsored by the said

the forced displacement of civilians and the destruction of homes and

property without military justification by Peshmerga forces

may amount to war crimes. Well, I can't comment on that. You're the

Deputy Prime Minister of the regional government. I can't comment

on an allegation like that because it's an allegation. Our commanders

on the ground haven't seen it like that. We've discussed this with

Amnesty International, we've issued a response to Amnesty International

and I would point you to that response. I don't know if you've

been to villages, there is one that was taken while Peshmerga forces

from IS, allegedly a place where abuses were rice and homes were

destroyed by the dozen. I think that this... To say at this point that

the Kurds here are the aggressors against ISIS, that the Kurds...

That's not what I'm saying and you know it. That the Kurds are unfair

against ices or heaven forbid violating any kind of code of

conflict. This is no judgement on ISIS. -- against ISIS. It's about

your government. It's not about the current Mosul operation, there are

issues around Kirkuk, the question the international community is

asking is what is the ambition of the Kurdish regional government? Are

their places that were previously settlements, villages inhabited by a

mixed population, many residents would be Sunni Arab, are they now

being ethnically cleansed by Kurdish Peshmerga forces that want to expand

the reach of your region? First and foremost, these areas where battles

have taken place have been cleared of civilians way be for bullets were

fired. This isn't about forced displacement of people, this isn't

about any kind of raising of villages -- way before. These are

areas that were cleared of civilians either by choice that they left

these areas, or because they may have been ISIS sympathisers.

Remember, ISIS is not a foreign group. ISIS did not come from Mars,

it wasn't concocted in some foreign land and then exported to Iraq. ISIS

is Iraqi, ISIS was born in Iraq, ISIS as a large group of people

within Iraq that supported its ideology, that fought alongside the

foreign fighters to commit the crimes that they did -- has a large

group. When the Kurdish forces, the Iraqi forces, the coalition forces

are coming in to clear these areas, of course these people are going to

flee. When they flee and there are buildings that are booby-trapped and

buildings were snipers are holed out attacking our oncoming forces, we

have to make a decision about how we treat those forces held up in those

houses causing further terror to oncoming forces that are intending

to liberate these areas. You've skirted round my basic question,

what is the ambition, agenda of your government, the Kurdish regional

government. Let me put to you another quote that gets beyond the

issue of what's happening around Mosul to the big picture. On the

20th of October, the Kurdish by Minister of your regional government

said," As soon as Mosul is liberated we will meet with our partners in

Baghdad and talk about our independence". Is that the backstop

here, that you see the campaign in Mosul, the Peshmerga expansion of

its activities, as part of a drive towards imminent independence? We

have not been shy about talking to Iraq, talking to our partners in the

West, about our aspirations and about the aspirations of our people

who, by and large, want to be independent. I think that's a

natural right of the Kurds. It's an historic rights of the Kurds and in

fact it's an historic injustice that today the Kurds don't have a state

of their own. But the fact that we are talking to Baghdad about this

issue, the fact that we will negotiate any independence process

with Baghdad, should allay the fears of any countries nearby or far away

that may be concerned about the potential eventuality. Interesting,

you use an elegant politician's device there of saying two different

things. One you said talk to Baghdad and then you talked about a

negotiation. It's a process. It's a process. It's not a declaration.

They will not be a unilateral declaration. Your language is

different from some around the president of the KRG, the regional

government. Let me give you this one. Iraq is over, said Mr Hiromi, a

close adviser to President Barzani, statehood is now the only solution.

That's what he said, that's not a negotiation, a declaration you of

your perception of fact. That's an opinion. Is it your opinion? My

opinion is Iraq has failed as a state, it has failed to govern, it

has failed to be a fair governor for all. Iraq has failed when one third

of the country is in the hands of a terrorist organisation. Another

major portion of the country has been excluded, its financial dues by

the federal government. And today we have a situation in the country

where polarisation is the norm. The situation in Iraq hasn't improved

over the years. I'm struggling to see where there's a negotiation,

your message, not quite as clear-cut as others, including President

Barzani, but your declaration seems to be bye-bye, we're on our way out,

whatever you say, we're going. Is that it? Our independence will come

through a dialogue with Baghdad. Baghdad doesn't want you to go, they

say in the end the territorial integrity of our is paramount and

you will not go. They haven't said that. What are they saying?

Independence is a process and it starts with a discussion and that

discussion has begun. Let me ask you about this referendum. President

Barzani appeared to promise a referendum in 2014, it didn't

happen, then he said they would have a referendum before the US goes to

the polls in a presidential election, that's been and gone and

still no referendum. He says now it will come as soon as Mosul has

fallen. What do you say? The referendum is a vehicle to express

the will of our people. It is not a decision that immediately after a

referendum we will take down the Iraqi flag and raise the Kurdish one

and declare independence, it's a process. When will the referendum

happen, Deputy Prime Minister? It's confusing to me, when is it going to

happen? A referendum costs money. Kurdistan is facing an unprecedented

fiscal and economic crisis right now. That's preposterous, you're

saying you're ready for it, it's the only solution. Your putting words in

my mouth. Then you're saying you're... Your putting words into my

mouth here. I'm saying one thing and you're saying another. I'm saying

that the independence is an aspiration of our people. There's a

genuine consensus across our population that Kurds by and large

want to be independent. So that's a process, the process starts with a

dialogue, this process starts with negotiations, the process has at its

core a referendum. But there are many key elements may need to work

out with Baghdad. Overflight rights, banking, borders, passports, all

kinds of things. It's not going to be a cut and shut job into meetings

and we from declaring independence... What is your idea of

a timeframe? My idea of a timeframe is burst of all we need to get our

own house in order in Kurdistan, we need to sort out the displaced

people and we are at war. We have got 3000-4000 capital investment

projects that have stalled because of the fiscal situation in

Kurdistan. So right now our government's priority is to get its

house in order, Howard Government's priority now is to enact serious

reforms that will fix our economy, get people on the right track,

bite-size our government, get the private sector thriving and then, of

course, the political track is one that runs parallel to the

administrator of issues that we're facing.

I don't want to put words in your mouth. Am I right in interpreting

what you said as in essence saying there's no way we are ready for

independence right now? We have to many problems, not least a

collapsing economy? I think there will never be the perfect time to

declare independence. I don't think anyone will ever give us

independence on a silver plate. I think there is a struggle for an

independence and I think that struggle has to run in parallel to

our primary responsibilities, which is to cater for the citizens of

Kurdistan. In this interview you have been frank about the scale of

the problems. Recent EU said the existential threat facing Kurdistan

today is the economy. Why is it in such a mess when over the past let's

say ten years you have received tens of billions of dollars from the

Iraqi government and indeed from direct oil sales as well, but all

oil revenues? Tens of billions of dollars, and yet you are running the

most terrible deficits and national debt, or let's a regional debt?

Kurdistan was hit by multiple shocks. Our economy suffered

significantly in 2014 when Baghdad cut our federal funding. June, July,

August that year the wall with ISIS came. Subsequent to that was the

influx of almost 2 million internally displaced peoples and

refugees. And then parallel to that came a global crash of oil prices.

Now, for better or for worse, in our case for worse, we are single

commodity economy. So when that commodity crushes the way it it will

have a massive impact on our fiscal situation. Yes, money came from

Baghdad, it went to financing a massive public sector, we're not shy

about saying that, we have an enormous public sector. You are

massively overstaffed. We have a cumbersome bureaucracy that we are

trying to streamline. You've got thousands of ghost employees who are

receiving pay, but don't actually exist, including in the Peshmerga

forces. Which is why we have started now a biometric registration

programme that will biometric we register every wage earner in

Kurdistan through fingerprint registration, Iris scans and facial

recognition. This is an ambitious programme and it is intended to find

those ghost employees, find the double dippers, who unlawfully

receiving two or more salaries, and ultimately give us the answer to a

simple question. Who are we paying, wide and to do what? Isn't the truth

that there is the scale of what you call double dipping, boasts

galleries, whatever, the scale of corruption and cronyism in Kurdistan

is a reflection that for far too long the region has been run on a

sort of tribal clan -based basis, without any real effort at true

reform and modernisation? Our government has grown over the years,

it has grown exponentially. Through that growth has come a lot of

inefficiencies, bureaucracy, mismanagement and yes corruption. We

are not saying that this is Switzerland and it is the model

government. No. But we are brave enough to say we have shortcomings.

This is sensitive for you, because you come from one of the two most

prominent families in the Kurdish region, that have dominated for 40

years. We are all complicit. The parties are complicit. The system is

defunct and we are now sure that the shock to the system made us look

inwards, that we didn't shy away from the responsibilities and we've

launched a very ambitious programme and are modernising our ministry of

finance, bringing in new technologies to manage customs

revenues, we are revamping the tax administrations. We are changing the

banking system and now biometric league registering 1.4 million wage

earners. -- biometric league. We are working with the World Bank to

complete overhaul electricity sector to bring down costs in levels of

service to our citizens. At the same time we've got another programme

with the World Bank to completely overhaul our safety net. So we've

identified our problems. We've identified what needs to be done, we

started on a track to do what we need to do, but we've done this by

ourselves. We haven't had millions of dollars of foreign aid and

assistance, like Baghdad has had, in terms of the millions of dollars

that have been spent on democracy building, civil society building,

institution building in Baghdad. We don't get any of that. None of the

IMF assistance. We have paid the World Bank to help us reform

Kurdistan. But, and here is the big but, you say you are heading in the

right direction and me and my fellows in government are truly

committed to cleaning up the stable, but listen to the words of a fellow

party member of yours in the P UK, the former senior official both in

the regional and national governments. Kurdistan, and he is

talking about today's Kurdistan, is degenerating into warlordism and

corrupt victims. He is a friend but he was a minister in Kurdistan. He

was Prime Minister twice. There are many people today who say a lot of

things, that criticise the system, that could have done more while they

were in the system to fix the system. I'm not going to go back to

yesterday. Your father would be one of them. I am not going back

yesterday. I have a job today and that is to fix the system. Just a

pickup on the point of the fear of falling into war. How great is the

fear that we KDP and PUK conflicts could resume? One of the officers of

the PUK was firebombed, someone was exiled out of Parliament because it

wasn't like that he was an oppositionist. There is the feeling

of a new hostility inside your region. There is no doubting that

political tensions are high. But there is no fear of a return to

conflict that plague us in the 90s. I issue about that? I am sure,

because our citizens would accept that, society has moved on. The 90s

was a very militarised system. The military is today still a powerful

entity, and they are engaged in a very tough war against a brutal

enemy, but our society today has moved on. Our society is now...

There is deep political discourse, political dispute and

finger-pointing, but I watched some parliamentary sessions here in the

UK, 80 watched some parliamentary sessions in Australia and other much

more developed democracies... But we don't have the recent history of the

two main parties taking up arms against each other, which you have

to worry about. We've seen civil strife in Kurdistan before and we

could see it again. Which is why it's a complete red line for all

parties, but more importantly the public that we serve. A final

thought, taking you beyond the internal to the external. You know

very well up whatever you said about the long-term process and

negotiation towards independence, the US does not want to see an

independent Kurdistan. Iran doesn't want to see an independent Kurdistan

and you are increasingly reliant upon a cooperative relationship with

Turkey and Mr Erdogan, which could turn on a sixpence, depending on

what happens with Turkey. You are the mercy of outside forces and you

always have been. Yes, we have been, we are the landlocked. We are in an

interesting neighbourhood. But, at the same time, we are part of a

country called Iraq must have any discussions for independence will

start with the country of Iraq and when Kurdistan and Iraq reach an

agreement on independence, then it is not for anyone else to be against

it all for it. That might work in some sort of magical theory, it

certainly doesn't work in practice and you know it. Iran for example is

not going to stand by. We will see. What do you mean by that? You have

to figure that... You put it this way, in an interesting

neighbourhood. That neighbourhood isn't going to change and will make

deeply interesting, one could say fragile, unstable. I'm not doubting

that. But your -- it will affect your ability to deliver on what you

have promised. Our first priority is to protect and service our citizens

and their wishes. But the independence track is a process, it

isn't something that will happen overnight. There won't be an

overnight decision, there won't be a breaking news issue for the BBC to

report. There will be a process and it's a way for the separation to be

amicable. It has happened in these countries that have been at war

before and it has happened in countries that have had a long

history of internal strife. There is a chance for an amicable separation

between Kurdistan and Iraq. We have to end fair, but thank you for being

on HARDtalk. Thank you.