Angelina Teny, Sudan People's Liberation Movement In-Opposition HARDtalk


Angelina Teny, Sudan People's Liberation Movement In-Opposition

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Welcome to HARDtalk, with me, Zeinab Badawi.

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The people of South Sudan have known little peace for many decades,

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and independence in 2011 has brought them nothing but war,

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increasing poverty and starvation, and suffering.

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Tens of thousands have died, and more than 3 million have been

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forced to leave their homes in the past three years.

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The United Nations says, "The current spate of fighting

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amounts to ethnic cleansing, and could spiral into genocide."

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The main rebel group is headed by the former Vice President,

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Riek Machar, who is now in exile.

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My guest today is his wife, Angelina Teny, who is a senior

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member of the movement.

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How much responsibility do they bear for the suffering in South Sudan?

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Angelina Teney, welcome to HARDtalk.

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Thank you very much.

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The situation in South Sudan is dire.

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What are you hearing about what's going on on the ground?

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Well, you said it is dire.

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The humanitarian situation has reached a level of catastrophe.

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The war is escalating even further, and the economic situation,

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what we could say is it is no longer on a free fall,

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but rather it has crashed the country.

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So, in a nutshell, you can say that the situation for the normal

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citizen, for the person there, is really one of desperation.

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The United Nations humanitarian chief, Stephen O'Brien,

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says that 6 million people, that's half of the population,

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are in need of humanitarian assistance.

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5 million are in danger of starvation.

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3 million have been forced to leave their homes.

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A million refugees, 2 million internally displaced people.

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Who do you think is responsible for this?

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Well, I can say that we are responsible for ending it,

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and this is where the responsibility...

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We'll all come to that, about ending it, but who do

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you think is behind all this?

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I would say the way our president, President Salva, led the country has

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really led to this situation, because what had happened

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is that our country, just before starting,

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from 2011, was turned into a police state.

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So dissenting views are really not accepted.

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Then, when members of the ruling party, the SPLM, tried to start

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a dialogue within the party in order to recreate a vision and a direction

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for the country, the President did not welcome that.

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You claim President Salva Kiir of South Sudan, but I have to put it

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to you that your husband, Riek Machar, who is the main rebel

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leader, has been a significant player in South Sudan

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for three decades.

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He's been a Vice President, on and off, for 15 years,

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and he has to share the blame for the situation that the people

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of South Sudan find themselves in today.

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Well, definitely I cannot say that he has been out of the system.

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He has been in the system in South Sudan, but what you have

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to know is that my chairman, when he decided to actually raise

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the concerns that our country was facing, that is what brought

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the fallout, and that is what actually led President Salva

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to introduce violence, in order to rest finally peaceful

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dialogues within the party and within the country.

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You're talking about the recent fallout that the two men

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had last year?

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Yes.

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About that one, not just from 2013, because you know we've been engaged

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in trying to, during the interim period, really to ensure

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that the referendum succeeds.

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While we were doing that, President Salva was also

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asserting his dictatorship.

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Our disagreements started...

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He was elected, and your husband, Riek Machar, you were referring

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to the referendum in 2011 that brought independence to South Sudan,

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has been an ally, a deputy to him.

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But let me just carry on my train of thought for you,

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which is that Riek Machar must share the burden of responsibility

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for what's going on.

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South Sudan analyst, former deputy defence minister

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Majak D'Agoot refers to the gun class in South Sudan,

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"Sectarian warlords, like Riek Machar, who have

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historically used violence, channelled through appeals to ethnic

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nationalism, to hijack the state for personal gain."

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Well, I would dispute that as an accurate statement,

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because also Majak, as you know, is another politician from South

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Sudan...

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But he has been allied to your...

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However, I want to establish the fact that my husband,

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or let me say my chairman...

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Chairman of the SPLM-in Opposition.

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..has been on records all the time trying to correct the situation,

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trying to introduce institutional reforms, systems of governance that

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will ensure a democratic transformation, and this is actually

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what brings the fallout between the leaders.

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OK.

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I want to make it...

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I am not here to say that there aren't many abundant

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criticism of President Salva Kiir's government.

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There are many, from the international community,

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from within South Sudan.

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But I am talking to you, as a senior member of

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the Sudan People's Liberation Movement-in-Opposition.

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If there are issues to put to the government of South Sudan,

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we on HARDtalk will do that when we talk to them.

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But if I may just continue with putting to you some

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of the criticisms that are made about your movement.

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So, you say that civilians are being killed on the basis

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of tribal affiliations, but there are reliable reports that

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rebel forces of your opposition movement, or affiliated

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with your movement, have also killed and raped civilians.

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What is your response to that?

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If you go back to the records, including even the UN report,

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you will find since when we officially established the SPLM-IO

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in April 2014, that those those incidences have,

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in one way or another, what ever that had happened before

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that we have investigated, and we have actually addressed,

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since that, our movement has not made it a policy,

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and therefore, you will not find that there are incidences actually

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attributed to us since we established organised.

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Well, I'll give you one.

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Sorry to interrupt you.

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Human Rights Watch says in October 2016, rebels claiming affiliation

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with Riek Machar ambushed a convoy of cars and trucks carrying

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civilians fleeing Yei, killing mostly Dinka.

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The Dinka, of course, are the tribe of President Salva Kiir -

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according to the CIA World Factbook, about 36%

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of South Sudan's population.

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Then Nuer tribe, from which you and your husband

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hail, about 15%.

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I know the figures are disputed, that they are the most recent

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ones we have.

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Anyway, the point is that Dinka were killed, mostly,

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in this incident in Yei.

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An 11-year-old boy said, "They started to shoot,

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and I lay down.

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Others fell on top of me.

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The rebels then burned the truck, killing dozens of occupants inside."

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We have come across that.

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Actually, my chairman has directed an investigation if these are people

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truly affiliated to us, because our people on the ground

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are under orders, with clear and specific instructions,

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that they are not fighting a war with anyone.

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Rather, they are resisting the onslaught from the government.

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So that incident that has been attributed

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by the Human Rights Watch, we have investigated.

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Our forces on that part of South Sudan have actually denied

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any responsibility, or being part of it.

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I give you another example.

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Have you done anything about this?

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The United Nations Mission, UNMISS, in South Sudan,

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said in a very detailed report in 2014, "Pro-Riek Machar forces

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sacked the oil town of Bentiu in April 2014, killing hundreds

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of civilians, notably in the mosque, the hospital, the market

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and surrounding areas."

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Definitely, actually, the ICRC has done a report

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and we have a commission, and we have actually made the report

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public, and the people that were identified by the ICRC

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were brought to book by...

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The International Committee of the Red Cross, yes.

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I could go on and on, actually.

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I don't want to keep on doing that, but there are...

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You know, UNMISS, the United Nations mission, says there are reasonable

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grounds to believe that violations of international human rights

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and humanitarian law have been committed by both parties

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to the conflict.

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I would not deny absolutely to say nothing had happened,

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that I would say it is not a policy, and we are very determined

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to always, when something like that happens, it is addressed,

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it is investigated, and the culprits are actually brought to account.

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Because...

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War is tragic.

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Yes, it is tragic, but we, as a responsible organisation,

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don't believe you should allow people who do that to get

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away with it.

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UNMISS, the UN, is urging both sides to control their forces.

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Can you control your forces?

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We have, because if you go back to the incidences of the Juba crisis

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on July 8th, you would find that the way the SPLM-in-Opposition

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conducted themselves, you would find civilians telling

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you that we have actually got directives and protections,

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and we have shown what to do and where to go, and so on,

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whereas after we'd withdrawn, the catastrophe that happened

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in Juba after that, well, everybody knows

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about it, the killings...

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You are talking about the active combat that broke out in July last

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year in the South Sudanese capital, Juba, between Salva Kiir

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and Riek Machar's forces.

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But I have to say to you that you did not emerge without criticism

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from that situation.

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Human Rights Watch again said, "Regardless of the intentions

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of Machar's forces, of going into civilian sites,

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the impact of the manoeuvre was to endanger the thousands

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of civilians who were sheltering in these UN protection sites,

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and that would constitute a war crime of using human shields."

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And they also said, "Any Dinka civilians who remained

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in the town risked death."

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So you raised one example of what went on there in July,

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and I'm saying to you, again, that the forces

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of the SPLM-in-Opposition had not emerged unscathed.

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Well, we tried to withdraw...

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Given that our side was very close to the UN protection site,

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this is where the whole battle actually took place.

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So we had no way of withdrawing other than through that route,

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because the UN is very close.

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But what ever your intentions were, you endangered civilians.

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I think it is worth explaining that, as the conflict research

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American Alan Boswell, based in Kenya, writing a book

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about South Sudan, says," I think you have to different wars

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going on in South Sudan.

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You have a fight between President Salva Kiir

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and Riek Machar's coalitions over who will be king,

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but there are a bunch of smaller groups in South Sudan who are waging

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war against the kingdom itself."

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So we accept that there are a range of different perpetrators

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and unnamed militia groups and so one, but the fact does

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remain, and I ask you again, what do you say to the criticisms

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that forces of the Sudan People's Liberation Movement-in-Opposition

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have committed some of these atrocities against civilians -

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rape, looting, killing, violence, that you yourself had condemned?

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What do you say?

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We are saying that, as a movement, we do not condone any of this.

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Even when we were negotiating the agreement, the agreement

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and the resolution of the conflict in the Republic of South Sudan,

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we stood very firm, and we are on record.

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We fought for the inclusion of transitional justice.

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Actually, we say justice and accountability.

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And this is still the cornerstone.

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And this is because we feel that we must end impunity,

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and we must make people who actually commit crimes against other human

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beings must be made accountable.

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Including anybody from your...

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Including your chairman, your husband?

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We call for it, we call for it because we feel that it is needed.

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It is what will end the situation in South sedan.

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It will end impunity, and we say it without exception.

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Without exception?

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Including your husband?

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We say it without exception.

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Right.

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Just on this point of genocide, which is a very, very important one,

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because Adama Dieng, the UN Special Adviser

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on the Prevention of Genocide, said at the end of last year,

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after visiting South Sudan, "I was dismayed that what I saw

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confirmed my concern that there is a strong risk

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of violence escalating along ethnic lines with the potential

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to spiral into genocide.

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I do not say that lightly."

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I mean, is that a possibility?

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Our thinking is not even looming, but rather in progress.

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Already the Obasanjo report, which is the report

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by the Commission of the...

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The former president of Nigeria.

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..had already established that ethnic cleansing in Juba took

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place in 2013.

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In the span of one week, over 20,000 people were killed just

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because they belonged to an ethnic group.

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This was done by men in uniform, by government.

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Well, that's your accusation, and I'm sure it will be looked at.

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Now, when you come to this situation today, it is even worse,

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because it has spread.

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It is in Southern Unity, it is in Central Equatoria,

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it is in Western Equatoria.

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We have just walked from Juba, after July.

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And we have seen it with our own eyes, and it is a plan organised

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by the government.

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President Salva is on record saying that we will hand them

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down like rats.

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Well, as I said, we are not here...

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There are criticisms made about Salva Kiir,

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but I have to put it to you that you are parties to this conflict,

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and arguably, are fuelling a lot of the violence that

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you yourself condemn.

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For example, in September last year, your movement,

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the SPLM-in-Opposition, declared war on what it described

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as the "regime" in Juba, saying it wants to wage a popular

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armed resistance against the authoritarian and fascist regime

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of President Salva Kiir in order to bring peace,

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freedom, democracy and the rule of law in the country.

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We have not declared war.

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We said resistance.

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Armed resistance.

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Because there is already a war going on, because already the regime

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of Salva was already on offensive.

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But you are parties to the conflict.

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The evidence to that is that, unless you are telling us

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don't protect yourself...

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I have to say to you, but you know yourself,

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Angelina Teney, that there was widespread condemnation

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when that statement was made.

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The US State Department's spokesman, John Kirby, 28 September,

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said, "The US government strongly condemns Riek Machar's statement."

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A joint statement by the troika powers, the EU, Norway and the US,

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as well as other governments also condemned calls by the opposition

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leaders for a renewal of armed conflict.

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"Further fighting won't solve South Sudan's pressing political

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and economic challenges.

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It will only increase the suffering of South Sudan's

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people", they said.

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I could go on and on.

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It was widespread condemnation.

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I can tell you that if you saw the communique that we issued

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during that meeting, it talks about a political process

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that is needed for the resuscitation of this agreement.

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That statement of the resistance was actually the last point

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in that communique.

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So it was an option for the people of South Sudan to continue,

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to be defended from the onslaught that is going on.

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So our declaration is actually for a political process.

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It isn't.

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Look, that is not how it is being seen at all.

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Let me ask you this.

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I'm correcting you.

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The East African Group of Nations, known as EGAD, has said,

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on the 9th of December in a communique, "We call

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upon the SPLM-in-Opposition to renounce violence as a means

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of solving the problems of South Sudan."

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Do you renounce violence?

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We say, tell the government in Juba to stop the offensive,

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the pursuit of people based on ethnic affiliation,

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based on political affiliation.

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We say that if you hold the government to account,

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because the government in Juba gets encouraged with this statement,

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and they are being let off the hook.

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In fact, they are the one on the offensive.

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Whatever the opposition is doing, it's basically fighting

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back, to resist.

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So you won't renounce violence?

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You're saying you're resisting, but you use violence to resist?

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What else to we do?

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The other options are, you go to be a refugee,

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you go to be internally displaced, or you go to a UN protection camp,

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but if you find yourself, that there is a way you can fight

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back, these people will fight back, especially when there is no hope

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now, without any peace process in place.

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You talk about the peace process.

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Of course, there was a deal in August 2015, known

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as "the agreement" for a resolution of the conflict in South Sudan.

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You think that there is still a way forward by resuscitating that?

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Definitely.

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But there are also reports, as we had in October,

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that Riek Machar announced that that agreement was dead.

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It has collapsed.

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The agreement has collapsed.

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We feel that it needs to be renewed so that it is resuscitated,

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so that the people of South Sudan are given a chance again to start.

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Remember, we did take risks and we did go to Juba

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to implement that agreement.

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Only even based on some of the UN reports, as you know,

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President Salva started to introduce violence,

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and we had to leave Juba under that fire.

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Now we are still committed to a political settlement.

0:19:360:19:39

This political settlement, we believe that this agreement has

0:19:390:19:41

a lot of good things in it.

0:19:410:19:43

It any needs to be revived, to be reviewed, so that we can also

0:19:430:19:47

embark now on its implementation.

0:19:470:19:48

But really, you've been marginalised, you've been pushed

0:19:480:19:50

to the sidelines, Riek Machar, the leader

0:19:500:19:52

of the SPLM-in-Opposition.

0:19:520:19:53

We've seen Taban Deng appointed as the new Vice President.

0:19:530:19:56

The international community have lined up behind him,

0:19:560:19:58

and President Salva Kiir, rightly or wrongly, is being seen

0:19:580:20:01

as somebody that the international community can deal with.

0:20:010:20:03

Festus Mogae, former president of Botswana,

0:20:030:20:05

who chairs the joint monitoring and evaluation commission,

0:20:050:20:07

has said, I applaud Salva Kiir's leadership.

0:20:070:20:09

So you've been written out of the picture.

0:20:090:20:16

OK.

0:20:160:20:19

Has the war stopped?

0:20:190:20:20

The war hasn't stopped, but the international community has

0:20:200:20:23

lined up a between Salva Kiir and his new deputy, Taban Deng,

0:20:230:20:26

who is from the Nuer tribe, as you are.

0:20:260:20:30

You've just spoken about a genocide looming.

0:20:300:20:32

This is a report by the UN.

0:20:320:20:35

If that government was doing something that was good

0:20:350:20:38

for the country, definitely there would be no reports talking

0:20:380:20:40

about genocide in that country.

0:20:400:20:42

So, in a nutshell, the peace agreement has collapsed.

0:20:420:20:44

There is no agreement in place.

0:20:440:20:50

The government continues to pursue a scorched earth policy

0:20:500:20:53

for targeting civilians, for targeting those that

0:20:530:20:55

are dissenting voices.

0:20:550:20:55

Now the war has escalated even more.

0:20:550:21:01

So if the international community believe, and President Salva Kiir

0:21:010:21:04

believes, that by having Taban Deng as his deputy,

0:21:040:21:11

replacing the person appointed by the government,

0:21:110:21:15

will bring peace, we should have seen peace now.

0:21:150:21:25

Well, they are working on it.

0:21:250:21:26

In December last year, President Salva Kiir announced

0:21:260:21:29

a new national dialogue.

0:21:290:21:30

Again, the international community have said they will support this

0:21:300:21:32

national dialogue in any way that they can.

0:21:320:21:35

Why don't you join this national dialogue and renounce violence?

0:21:350:21:37

The national dialogue can never be a replacement for a peace process

0:21:370:21:41

that would end the war.

0:21:410:21:45

A national dialogue, you need a conducive environment

0:21:450:21:48

where people can actually freely speak.

0:21:480:21:49

Something that is absent now in South Sudan.

0:21:490:21:51

For you to join a national dialogue, you first of all must create

0:21:510:21:56

the environment whereby you have that space for everybody to be able

0:21:560:21:59

to express themselves.

0:21:590:22:01

And this is what we are saying.

0:22:010:22:04

Let's create that space by resuscitating the agreement,

0:22:040:22:06

and once the agreement is resuscitated, we will have

0:22:060:22:08

the environment, and the agreement now provides the road map

0:22:080:22:11

for the dialogue.

0:22:110:22:20

How can you do that when Riek Machar is in South Africa?

0:22:200:22:24

By the way, is he in exile?

0:22:240:22:26

Is he under house arrest in South Africa?

0:22:260:22:28

He's not under house arrest.

0:22:280:22:29

Under country arrest, as it were?

0:22:290:22:31

The South Africans themselves have answered and said he's not

0:22:310:22:33

under house arrest.

0:22:340:22:34

So why isn't he going around lobbying governments,

0:22:340:22:36

and you're doing it instead?

0:22:360:22:38

Because I'm a member of the movement.

0:22:380:22:40

Remember, I negotiated our security...

0:22:400:22:41

Sure.

0:22:410:22:41

But can he move around?

0:22:410:22:43

He can move.

0:22:430:22:43

Is he going to go back to South Sudan, not to Juba...

0:22:430:22:47

Definitely.

0:22:470:22:47

South Sudan is home.

0:22:470:22:48

But I really want to go back to...

0:22:480:22:50

He will go back?

0:22:500:22:51

Definitely.

0:22:510:22:52

Does he still think he's Vice President?

0:22:520:22:56

He's not Vice President, because there's no transitional

0:22:560:22:58

government of national unity in place.

0:22:580:23:00

The government in Juba is the regime.

0:23:000:23:02

Since the agreement has collapsed, that leaves you with a regime that

0:23:020:23:05

he's not part of.

0:23:050:23:06

Finally, in the last few seconds, a senior African statesman,

0:23:060:23:09

who is very aware of what is going on in South Sudan,

0:23:090:23:12

has told me that South Sudan will know no peace until both

0:23:120:23:16

Salva Kiir and Riek Machar quit the scene.

0:23:160:23:18

He's right, isn't he?

0:23:180:23:19

He's not right.

0:23:190:23:26

He's not right?

0:23:260:23:29

He's not right.

0:23:290:23:30

Because we, as in opposition, offer an alternative.

0:23:300:23:32

We have a programme in place that we believe we actually can

0:23:320:23:35

transform that country, and move it to the next level.

0:23:350:23:43

We know that President Salva Kiir cannot do that, because he has been

0:23:440:23:47

given many opportunities.

0:23:470:23:48

We try even to do it with him.

0:23:480:23:50

We even introduced, before the outbreak of the 2013 crisis,

0:23:500:23:53

a process of national reconciliation that would allow the South Sudanese

0:23:530:23:56

people to actually move on.

0:23:560:23:57

President Salva abrogated it.

0:23:570:23:58

Angelina Teney, we leave it there.

0:23:580:24:00

Thank you for coming on HARDtalk.

0:24:000:24:02

Thank you.

0:24:020:24:12

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