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Welcome to HARDtalk, with me, Zeinab Badawi. | 0:00:09 | 0:00:11 | |
The people of South Sudan have known little peace for many decades, | 0:00:11 | 0:00:14 | |
and independence in 2011 has brought them nothing but war, | 0:00:14 | 0:00:17 | |
increasing poverty and starvation, and suffering. | 0:00:17 | 0:00:19 | |
Tens of thousands have died, and more than 3 million have been | 0:00:19 | 0:00:22 | |
forced to leave their homes in the past three years. | 0:00:22 | 0:00:25 | |
The United Nations says, "The current spate of fighting | 0:00:25 | 0:00:27 | |
amounts to ethnic cleansing, and could spiral into genocide." | 0:00:27 | 0:00:30 | |
The main rebel group is headed by the former Vice President, | 0:00:30 | 0:00:33 | |
Riek Machar, who is now in exile. | 0:00:33 | 0:00:40 | |
My guest today is his wife, Angelina Teny, who is a senior | 0:00:40 | 0:00:43 | |
member of the movement. | 0:00:43 | 0:00:53 | |
How much responsibility do they bear for the suffering in South Sudan? | 0:00:53 | 0:00:54 | |
Angelina Teney, welcome to HARDtalk. | 0:01:19 | 0:01:21 | |
Thank you very much. | 0:01:21 | 0:01:22 | |
The situation in South Sudan is dire. | 0:01:22 | 0:01:24 | |
What are you hearing about what's going on on the ground? | 0:01:24 | 0:01:26 | |
Well, you said it is dire. | 0:01:26 | 0:01:29 | |
The humanitarian situation has reached a level of catastrophe. | 0:01:29 | 0:01:31 | |
The war is escalating even further, and the economic situation, | 0:01:31 | 0:01:34 | |
what we could say is it is no longer on a free fall, | 0:01:34 | 0:01:37 | |
but rather it has crashed the country. | 0:01:37 | 0:01:39 | |
So, in a nutshell, you can say that the situation for the normal | 0:01:39 | 0:01:43 | |
citizen, for the person there, is really one of desperation. | 0:01:43 | 0:01:58 | |
The United Nations humanitarian chief, Stephen O'Brien, | 0:01:58 | 0:02:00 | |
says that 6 million people, that's half of the population, | 0:02:00 | 0:02:03 | |
are in need of humanitarian assistance. | 0:02:03 | 0:02:04 | |
5 million are in danger of starvation. | 0:02:04 | 0:02:06 | |
3 million have been forced to leave their homes. | 0:02:06 | 0:02:09 | |
A million refugees, 2 million internally displaced people. | 0:02:09 | 0:02:21 | |
Who do you think is responsible for this? | 0:02:21 | 0:02:23 | |
Well, I can say that we are responsible for ending it, | 0:02:23 | 0:02:26 | |
and this is where the responsibility... | 0:02:26 | 0:02:28 | |
We'll all come to that, about ending it, but who do | 0:02:28 | 0:02:31 | |
you think is behind all this? | 0:02:31 | 0:02:33 | |
I would say the way our president, President Salva, led the country has | 0:02:33 | 0:02:36 | |
really led to this situation, because what had happened | 0:02:36 | 0:02:39 | |
is that our country, just before starting, | 0:02:39 | 0:02:40 | |
from 2011, was turned into a police state. | 0:02:40 | 0:02:50 | |
So dissenting views are really not accepted. | 0:02:50 | 0:02:52 | |
Then, when members of the ruling party, the SPLM, tried to start | 0:02:52 | 0:02:56 | |
a dialogue within the party in order to recreate a vision and a direction | 0:02:56 | 0:02:59 | |
for the country, the President did not welcome that. | 0:02:59 | 0:03:18 | |
You claim President Salva Kiir of South Sudan, but I have to put it | 0:03:18 | 0:03:22 | |
to you that your husband, Riek Machar, who is the main rebel | 0:03:22 | 0:03:25 | |
leader, has been a significant player in South Sudan | 0:03:25 | 0:03:27 | |
for three decades. | 0:03:27 | 0:03:37 | |
He's been a Vice President, on and off, for 15 years, | 0:03:38 | 0:03:41 | |
and he has to share the blame for the situation that the people | 0:03:41 | 0:03:44 | |
of South Sudan find themselves in today. | 0:03:44 | 0:03:48 | |
Well, definitely I cannot say that he has been out of the system. | 0:03:48 | 0:03:51 | |
He has been in the system in South Sudan, but what you have | 0:03:51 | 0:03:55 | |
to know is that my chairman, when he decided to actually raise | 0:03:55 | 0:03:58 | |
the concerns that our country was facing, that is what brought | 0:03:58 | 0:04:01 | |
the fallout, and that is what actually led President Salva | 0:04:01 | 0:04:04 | |
to introduce violence, in order to rest finally peaceful | 0:04:04 | 0:04:06 | |
dialogues within the party and within the country. | 0:04:06 | 0:04:17 | |
You're talking about the recent fallout that the two men | 0:04:17 | 0:04:20 | |
had last year? | 0:04:20 | 0:04:31 | |
Yes. | 0:04:31 | 0:04:31 | |
About that one, not just from 2013, because you know we've been engaged | 0:04:31 | 0:04:35 | |
in trying to, during the interim period, really to ensure | 0:04:35 | 0:04:38 | |
that the referendum succeeds. | 0:04:38 | 0:04:39 | |
While we were doing that, President Salva was also | 0:04:39 | 0:04:41 | |
asserting his dictatorship. | 0:04:41 | 0:04:42 | |
Our disagreements started... | 0:04:42 | 0:04:43 | |
He was elected, and your husband, Riek Machar, you were referring | 0:04:43 | 0:04:46 | |
to the referendum in 2011 that brought independence to South Sudan, | 0:04:46 | 0:04:54 | |
has been an ally, a deputy to him. | 0:04:54 | 0:04:56 | |
But let me just carry on my train of thought for you, | 0:04:56 | 0:05:00 | |
which is that Riek Machar must share the burden of responsibility | 0:05:00 | 0:05:03 | |
for what's going on. | 0:05:03 | 0:05:08 | |
South Sudan analyst, former deputy defence minister | 0:05:08 | 0:05:10 | |
Majak D'Agoot refers to the gun class in South Sudan, | 0:05:10 | 0:05:13 | |
"Sectarian warlords, like Riek Machar, who have | 0:05:13 | 0:05:14 | |
historically used violence, channelled through appeals to ethnic | 0:05:14 | 0:05:17 | |
nationalism, to hijack the state for personal gain." | 0:05:17 | 0:05:21 | |
Well, I would dispute that as an accurate statement, | 0:05:21 | 0:05:24 | |
because also Majak, as you know, is another politician from South | 0:05:24 | 0:05:27 | |
Sudan... | 0:05:27 | 0:05:27 | |
But he has been allied to your... | 0:05:27 | 0:05:29 | |
However, I want to establish the fact that my husband, | 0:05:29 | 0:05:31 | |
or let me say my chairman... | 0:05:31 | 0:05:41 | |
Chairman of the SPLM-in Opposition. | 0:05:41 | 0:05:42 | |
..has been on records all the time trying to correct the situation, | 0:05:42 | 0:05:45 | |
trying to introduce institutional reforms, systems of governance that | 0:05:46 | 0:05:48 | |
will ensure a democratic transformation, and this is actually | 0:05:48 | 0:05:50 | |
what brings the fallout between the leaders. | 0:05:51 | 0:05:57 | |
OK. | 0:05:57 | 0:05:57 | |
I want to make it... | 0:05:57 | 0:05:59 | |
I am not here to say that there aren't many abundant | 0:05:59 | 0:06:03 | |
criticism of President Salva Kiir's government. | 0:06:03 | 0:06:05 | |
There are many, from the international community, | 0:06:05 | 0:06:07 | |
from within South Sudan. | 0:06:07 | 0:06:08 | |
But I am talking to you, as a senior member of | 0:06:08 | 0:06:11 | |
the Sudan People's Liberation Movement-in-Opposition. | 0:06:11 | 0:06:12 | |
If there are issues to put to the government of South Sudan, | 0:06:13 | 0:06:16 | |
we on HARDtalk will do that when we talk to them. | 0:06:16 | 0:06:19 | |
But if I may just continue with putting to you some | 0:06:19 | 0:06:22 | |
of the criticisms that are made about your movement. | 0:06:22 | 0:06:25 | |
So, you say that civilians are being killed on the basis | 0:06:25 | 0:06:35 | |
of tribal affiliations, but there are reliable reports that | 0:06:35 | 0:06:37 | |
rebel forces of your opposition movement, or affiliated | 0:06:37 | 0:06:39 | |
with your movement, have also killed and raped civilians. | 0:06:39 | 0:06:42 | |
What is your response to that? | 0:06:42 | 0:06:43 | |
If you go back to the records, including even the UN report, | 0:06:43 | 0:06:48 | |
you will find since when we officially established the SPLM-IO | 0:06:48 | 0:06:51 | |
in April 2014, that those those incidences have, | 0:06:51 | 0:06:53 | |
in one way or another, what ever that had happened before | 0:06:53 | 0:06:56 | |
that we have investigated, and we have actually addressed, | 0:06:56 | 0:06:58 | |
since that, our movement has not made it a policy, | 0:06:58 | 0:07:01 | |
and therefore, you will not find that there are incidences actually | 0:07:01 | 0:07:04 | |
attributed to us since we established organised. | 0:07:04 | 0:07:26 | |
Well, I'll give you one. | 0:07:26 | 0:07:27 | |
Sorry to interrupt you. | 0:07:27 | 0:07:31 | |
Human Rights Watch says in October 2016, rebels claiming affiliation | 0:07:31 | 0:07:34 | |
with Riek Machar ambushed a convoy of cars and trucks carrying | 0:07:34 | 0:07:37 | |
civilians fleeing Yei, killing mostly Dinka. | 0:07:37 | 0:07:38 | |
The Dinka, of course, are the tribe of President Salva Kiir - | 0:07:38 | 0:07:41 | |
according to the CIA World Factbook, about 36% | 0:07:41 | 0:07:55 | |
of South Sudan's population. | 0:07:55 | 0:07:56 | |
Then Nuer tribe, from which you and your husband | 0:07:56 | 0:07:59 | |
hail, about 15%. | 0:07:59 | 0:07:59 | |
I know the figures are disputed, that they are the most recent | 0:08:00 | 0:08:03 | |
ones we have. | 0:08:03 | 0:08:03 | |
Anyway, the point is that Dinka were killed, mostly, | 0:08:04 | 0:08:06 | |
in this incident in Yei. | 0:08:06 | 0:08:07 | |
An 11-year-old boy said, "They started to shoot, | 0:08:07 | 0:08:09 | |
and I lay down. | 0:08:09 | 0:08:10 | |
Others fell on top of me. | 0:08:11 | 0:08:12 | |
The rebels then burned the truck, killing dozens of occupants inside." | 0:08:12 | 0:08:16 | |
We have come across that. | 0:08:16 | 0:08:17 | |
Actually, my chairman has directed an investigation if these are people | 0:08:17 | 0:08:20 | |
truly affiliated to us, because our people on the ground | 0:08:21 | 0:08:23 | |
are under orders, with clear and specific instructions, | 0:08:23 | 0:08:25 | |
that they are not fighting a war with anyone. | 0:08:25 | 0:08:28 | |
Rather, they are resisting the onslaught from the government. | 0:08:28 | 0:08:30 | |
So that incident that has been attributed | 0:08:30 | 0:08:32 | |
by the Human Rights Watch, we have investigated. | 0:08:32 | 0:08:34 | |
Our forces on that part of South Sudan have actually denied | 0:08:34 | 0:08:38 | |
any responsibility, or being part of it. | 0:08:38 | 0:09:01 | |
I give you another example. | 0:09:01 | 0:09:02 | |
Have you done anything about this? | 0:09:02 | 0:09:04 | |
The United Nations Mission, UNMISS, in South Sudan, | 0:09:04 | 0:09:06 | |
said in a very detailed report in 2014, "Pro-Riek Machar forces | 0:09:06 | 0:09:09 | |
sacked the oil town of Bentiu in April 2014, killing hundreds | 0:09:09 | 0:09:12 | |
of civilians, notably in the mosque, the hospital, the market | 0:09:12 | 0:09:15 | |
and surrounding areas." | 0:09:15 | 0:09:17 | |
Definitely, actually, the ICRC has done a report | 0:09:17 | 0:09:19 | |
and we have a commission, and we have actually made the report | 0:09:19 | 0:09:23 | |
public, and the people that were identified by the ICRC | 0:09:23 | 0:09:25 | |
were brought to book by... | 0:09:25 | 0:09:31 | |
The International Committee of the Red Cross, yes. | 0:09:31 | 0:09:33 | |
I could go on and on, actually. | 0:09:33 | 0:09:35 | |
I don't want to keep on doing that, but there are... | 0:09:35 | 0:09:38 | |
You know, UNMISS, the United Nations mission, says there are reasonable | 0:09:38 | 0:09:41 | |
grounds to believe that violations of international human rights | 0:09:41 | 0:09:46 | |
and humanitarian law have been committed by both parties | 0:09:46 | 0:09:49 | |
to the conflict. | 0:09:49 | 0:09:49 | |
I would not deny absolutely to say nothing had happened, | 0:09:49 | 0:09:52 | |
that I would say it is not a policy, and we are very determined | 0:09:52 | 0:09:56 | |
to always, when something like that happens, it is addressed, | 0:09:56 | 0:09:59 | |
it is investigated, and the culprits are actually brought to account. | 0:09:59 | 0:10:02 | |
Because... | 0:10:02 | 0:10:06 | |
War is tragic. | 0:10:06 | 0:10:06 | |
Yes, it is tragic, but we, as a responsible organisation, | 0:10:06 | 0:10:09 | |
don't believe you should allow people who do that to get | 0:10:09 | 0:10:12 | |
away with it. | 0:10:12 | 0:10:13 | |
UNMISS, the UN, is urging both sides to control their forces. | 0:10:13 | 0:10:19 | |
Can you control your forces? | 0:10:19 | 0:10:26 | |
We have, because if you go back to the incidences of the Juba crisis | 0:10:26 | 0:10:30 | |
on July 8th, you would find that the way the SPLM-in-Opposition | 0:10:30 | 0:10:33 | |
conducted themselves, you would find civilians telling | 0:10:33 | 0:10:35 | |
you that we have actually got directives and protections, | 0:10:35 | 0:10:37 | |
and we have shown what to do and where to go, and so on, | 0:10:37 | 0:10:41 | |
whereas after we'd withdrawn, the catastrophe that happened | 0:10:41 | 0:10:45 | |
in Juba after that, well, everybody knows | 0:10:45 | 0:10:47 | |
about it, the killings... | 0:10:47 | 0:10:57 | |
You are talking about the active combat that broke out in July last | 0:10:57 | 0:11:00 | |
year in the South Sudanese capital, Juba, between Salva Kiir | 0:11:00 | 0:11:03 | |
and Riek Machar's forces. | 0:11:03 | 0:11:04 | |
But I have to say to you that you did not emerge without criticism | 0:11:04 | 0:11:08 | |
from that situation. | 0:11:08 | 0:11:09 | |
Human Rights Watch again said, "Regardless of the intentions | 0:11:09 | 0:11:11 | |
of Machar's forces, of going into civilian sites, | 0:11:11 | 0:11:13 | |
the impact of the manoeuvre was to endanger the thousands | 0:11:13 | 0:11:16 | |
of civilians who were sheltering in these UN protection sites, | 0:11:16 | 0:11:19 | |
and that would constitute a war crime of using human shields." | 0:11:19 | 0:11:22 | |
And they also said, "Any Dinka civilians who remained | 0:11:22 | 0:11:24 | |
in the town risked death." | 0:11:24 | 0:11:30 | |
So you raised one example of what went on there in July, | 0:11:30 | 0:11:33 | |
and I'm saying to you, again, that the forces | 0:11:33 | 0:11:36 | |
of the SPLM-in-Opposition had not emerged unscathed. | 0:11:36 | 0:11:42 | |
Well, we tried to withdraw... | 0:11:42 | 0:11:44 | |
Given that our side was very close to the UN protection site, | 0:11:44 | 0:11:47 | |
this is where the whole battle actually took place. | 0:11:47 | 0:11:49 | |
So we had no way of withdrawing other than through that route, | 0:11:49 | 0:11:52 | |
because the UN is very close. | 0:11:52 | 0:11:57 | |
But what ever your intentions were, you endangered civilians. | 0:11:57 | 0:11:59 | |
I think it is worth explaining that, as the conflict research | 0:11:59 | 0:12:02 | |
American Alan Boswell, based in Kenya, writing a book | 0:12:02 | 0:12:05 | |
about South Sudan, says," I think you have to different wars | 0:12:05 | 0:12:08 | |
going on in South Sudan. | 0:12:08 | 0:12:09 | |
You have a fight between President Salva Kiir | 0:12:09 | 0:12:11 | |
and Riek Machar's coalitions over who will be king, | 0:12:11 | 0:12:14 | |
but there are a bunch of smaller groups in South Sudan who are waging | 0:12:14 | 0:12:18 | |
war against the kingdom itself." | 0:12:18 | 0:12:23 | |
So we accept that there are a range of different perpetrators | 0:12:23 | 0:12:26 | |
and unnamed militia groups and so one, but the fact does | 0:12:26 | 0:12:29 | |
remain, and I ask you again, what do you say to the criticisms | 0:12:29 | 0:12:32 | |
that forces of the Sudan People's Liberation Movement-in-Opposition | 0:12:32 | 0:12:34 | |
have committed some of these atrocities against civilians - | 0:12:34 | 0:12:37 | |
rape, looting, killing, violence, that you yourself had condemned? | 0:12:37 | 0:12:39 | |
What do you say? | 0:12:39 | 0:12:50 | |
We are saying that, as a movement, we do not condone any of this. | 0:12:50 | 0:12:53 | |
Even when we were negotiating the agreement, the agreement | 0:12:54 | 0:12:56 | |
and the resolution of the conflict in the Republic of South Sudan, | 0:12:56 | 0:12:59 | |
we stood very firm, and we are on record. | 0:12:59 | 0:13:02 | |
We fought for the inclusion of transitional justice. | 0:13:02 | 0:13:04 | |
Actually, we say justice and accountability. | 0:13:04 | 0:13:06 | |
And this is still the cornerstone. | 0:13:06 | 0:13:07 | |
And this is because we feel that we must end impunity, | 0:13:07 | 0:13:10 | |
and we must make people who actually commit crimes against other human | 0:13:10 | 0:13:13 | |
beings must be made accountable. | 0:13:13 | 0:13:27 | |
Including anybody from your... | 0:13:27 | 0:13:28 | |
Including your chairman, your husband? | 0:13:28 | 0:13:35 | |
We call for it, we call for it because we feel that it is needed. | 0:13:35 | 0:13:39 | |
It is what will end the situation in South sedan. | 0:13:39 | 0:13:42 | |
It will end impunity, and we say it without exception. | 0:13:42 | 0:13:44 | |
Without exception? | 0:13:44 | 0:13:45 | |
Including your husband? | 0:13:45 | 0:13:46 | |
We say it without exception. | 0:13:46 | 0:13:47 | |
Right. | 0:13:47 | 0:13:49 | |
Just on this point of genocide, which is a very, very important one, | 0:13:49 | 0:13:53 | |
because Adama Dieng, the UN Special Adviser | 0:13:53 | 0:13:55 | |
on the Prevention of Genocide, said at the end of last year, | 0:13:55 | 0:13:58 | |
after visiting South Sudan, "I was dismayed that what I saw | 0:13:58 | 0:14:01 | |
confirmed my concern that there is a strong risk | 0:14:01 | 0:14:03 | |
of violence escalating along ethnic lines with the potential | 0:14:03 | 0:14:06 | |
to spiral into genocide. | 0:14:06 | 0:14:07 | |
I do not say that lightly." | 0:14:07 | 0:14:09 | |
I mean, is that a possibility? | 0:14:09 | 0:14:13 | |
Our thinking is not even looming, but rather in progress. | 0:14:13 | 0:14:16 | |
Already the Obasanjo report, which is the report | 0:14:16 | 0:14:18 | |
by the Commission of the... | 0:14:18 | 0:14:23 | |
The former president of Nigeria. | 0:14:23 | 0:14:27 | |
..had already established that ethnic cleansing in Juba took | 0:14:27 | 0:14:29 | |
place in 2013. | 0:14:29 | 0:14:30 | |
In the span of one week, over 20,000 people were killed just | 0:14:30 | 0:14:33 | |
because they belonged to an ethnic group. | 0:14:33 | 0:14:35 | |
This was done by men in uniform, by government. | 0:14:35 | 0:14:46 | |
Well, that's your accusation, and I'm sure it will be looked at. | 0:14:46 | 0:14:52 | |
Now, when you come to this situation today, it is even worse, | 0:14:52 | 0:14:55 | |
because it has spread. | 0:14:55 | 0:14:56 | |
It is in Southern Unity, it is in Central Equatoria, | 0:14:56 | 0:14:59 | |
it is in Western Equatoria. | 0:14:59 | 0:15:01 | |
We have just walked from Juba, after July. | 0:15:02 | 0:15:05 | |
And we have seen it with our own eyes, and it is a plan organised | 0:15:05 | 0:15:09 | |
by the government. | 0:15:09 | 0:15:10 | |
President Salva is on record saying that we will hand them | 0:15:10 | 0:15:13 | |
down like rats. | 0:15:13 | 0:15:18 | |
Well, as I said, we are not here... | 0:15:18 | 0:15:20 | |
There are criticisms made about Salva Kiir, | 0:15:20 | 0:15:22 | |
but I have to put it to you that you are parties to this conflict, | 0:15:22 | 0:15:26 | |
and arguably, are fuelling a lot of the violence that | 0:15:26 | 0:15:29 | |
you yourself condemn. | 0:15:29 | 0:15:31 | |
For example, in September last year, your movement, | 0:15:31 | 0:15:34 | |
the SPLM-in-Opposition, declared war on what it described | 0:15:34 | 0:15:36 | |
as the "regime" in Juba, saying it wants to wage a popular | 0:15:36 | 0:15:40 | |
armed resistance against the authoritarian and fascist regime | 0:15:40 | 0:15:42 | |
of President Salva Kiir in order to bring peace, | 0:15:42 | 0:15:44 | |
freedom, democracy and the rule of law in the country. | 0:15:44 | 0:15:54 | |
We have not declared war. | 0:15:54 | 0:15:55 | |
We said resistance. | 0:15:55 | 0:15:56 | |
Armed resistance. | 0:15:56 | 0:15:57 | |
Because there is already a war going on, because already the regime | 0:15:57 | 0:16:00 | |
of Salva was already on offensive. | 0:16:01 | 0:16:08 | |
But you are parties to the conflict. | 0:16:08 | 0:16:11 | |
The evidence to that is that, unless you are telling us | 0:16:11 | 0:16:14 | |
don't protect yourself... | 0:16:14 | 0:16:18 | |
I have to say to you, but you know yourself, | 0:16:18 | 0:16:21 | |
Angelina Teney, that there was widespread condemnation | 0:16:21 | 0:16:23 | |
when that statement was made. | 0:16:23 | 0:16:24 | |
The US State Department's spokesman, John Kirby, 28 September, | 0:16:24 | 0:16:27 | |
said, "The US government strongly condemns Riek Machar's statement." | 0:16:27 | 0:16:30 | |
A joint statement by the troika powers, the EU, Norway and the US, | 0:16:30 | 0:16:34 | |
as well as other governments also condemned calls by the opposition | 0:16:34 | 0:16:37 | |
leaders for a renewal of armed conflict. | 0:16:37 | 0:16:38 | |
"Further fighting won't solve South Sudan's pressing political | 0:16:39 | 0:16:41 | |
and economic challenges. | 0:16:41 | 0:16:42 | |
It will only increase the suffering of South Sudan's | 0:16:42 | 0:16:44 | |
people", they said. | 0:16:44 | 0:16:45 | |
I could go on and on. | 0:16:45 | 0:16:46 | |
It was widespread condemnation. | 0:16:46 | 0:16:53 | |
I can tell you that if you saw the communique that we issued | 0:16:53 | 0:16:56 | |
during that meeting, it talks about a political process | 0:16:56 | 0:16:59 | |
that is needed for the resuscitation of this agreement. | 0:16:59 | 0:17:01 | |
That statement of the resistance was actually the last point | 0:17:01 | 0:17:04 | |
in that communique. | 0:17:04 | 0:17:05 | |
So it was an option for the people of South Sudan to continue, | 0:17:05 | 0:17:08 | |
to be defended from the onslaught that is going on. | 0:17:08 | 0:17:11 | |
So our declaration is actually for a political process. | 0:17:11 | 0:17:13 | |
It isn't. | 0:17:13 | 0:17:17 | |
Look, that is not how it is being seen at all. | 0:17:17 | 0:17:20 | |
Let me ask you this. | 0:17:20 | 0:17:24 | |
I'm correcting you. | 0:17:24 | 0:17:25 | |
The East African Group of Nations, known as EGAD, has said, | 0:17:25 | 0:17:28 | |
on the 9th of December in a communique, "We call | 0:17:28 | 0:17:31 | |
upon the SPLM-in-Opposition to renounce violence as a means | 0:17:31 | 0:17:33 | |
of solving the problems of South Sudan." | 0:17:33 | 0:17:35 | |
Do you renounce violence? | 0:17:35 | 0:17:40 | |
We say, tell the government in Juba to stop the offensive, | 0:17:40 | 0:17:43 | |
the pursuit of people based on ethnic affiliation, | 0:17:43 | 0:17:45 | |
based on political affiliation. | 0:17:45 | 0:17:46 | |
We say that if you hold the government to account, | 0:17:46 | 0:17:49 | |
because the government in Juba gets encouraged with this statement, | 0:17:49 | 0:17:51 | |
and they are being let off the hook. | 0:17:51 | 0:17:53 | |
In fact, they are the one on the offensive. | 0:17:53 | 0:17:56 | |
Whatever the opposition is doing, it's basically fighting | 0:17:56 | 0:17:58 | |
back, to resist. | 0:17:58 | 0:18:03 | |
So you won't renounce violence? | 0:18:03 | 0:18:06 | |
You're saying you're resisting, but you use violence to resist? | 0:18:06 | 0:18:11 | |
What else to we do? | 0:18:11 | 0:18:16 | |
The other options are, you go to be a refugee, | 0:18:16 | 0:18:19 | |
you go to be internally displaced, or you go to a UN protection camp, | 0:18:19 | 0:18:23 | |
but if you find yourself, that there is a way you can fight | 0:18:23 | 0:18:27 | |
back, these people will fight back, especially when there is no hope | 0:18:27 | 0:18:30 | |
now, without any peace process in place. | 0:18:30 | 0:18:38 | |
You talk about the peace process. | 0:18:38 | 0:18:40 | |
Of course, there was a deal in August 2015, known | 0:18:40 | 0:18:43 | |
as "the agreement" for a resolution of the conflict in South Sudan. | 0:18:43 | 0:18:46 | |
You think that there is still a way forward by resuscitating that? | 0:18:46 | 0:18:49 | |
Definitely. | 0:18:49 | 0:19:01 | |
But there are also reports, as we had in October, | 0:19:01 | 0:19:03 | |
that Riek Machar announced that that agreement was dead. | 0:19:04 | 0:19:06 | |
It has collapsed. | 0:19:06 | 0:19:07 | |
The agreement has collapsed. | 0:19:07 | 0:19:08 | |
We feel that it needs to be renewed so that it is resuscitated, | 0:19:08 | 0:19:11 | |
so that the people of South Sudan are given a chance again to start. | 0:19:11 | 0:19:15 | |
Remember, we did take risks and we did go to Juba | 0:19:15 | 0:19:18 | |
to implement that agreement. | 0:19:18 | 0:19:29 | |
Only even based on some of the UN reports, as you know, | 0:19:29 | 0:19:32 | |
President Salva started to introduce violence, | 0:19:32 | 0:19:34 | |
and we had to leave Juba under that fire. | 0:19:34 | 0:19:36 | |
Now we are still committed to a political settlement. | 0:19:36 | 0:19:39 | |
This political settlement, we believe that this agreement has | 0:19:39 | 0:19:41 | |
a lot of good things in it. | 0:19:41 | 0:19:43 | |
It any needs to be revived, to be reviewed, so that we can also | 0:19:43 | 0:19:47 | |
embark now on its implementation. | 0:19:47 | 0:19:48 | |
But really, you've been marginalised, you've been pushed | 0:19:48 | 0:19:50 | |
to the sidelines, Riek Machar, the leader | 0:19:50 | 0:19:52 | |
of the SPLM-in-Opposition. | 0:19:52 | 0:19:53 | |
We've seen Taban Deng appointed as the new Vice President. | 0:19:53 | 0:19:56 | |
The international community have lined up behind him, | 0:19:56 | 0:19:58 | |
and President Salva Kiir, rightly or wrongly, is being seen | 0:19:58 | 0:20:01 | |
as somebody that the international community can deal with. | 0:20:01 | 0:20:03 | |
Festus Mogae, former president of Botswana, | 0:20:03 | 0:20:05 | |
who chairs the joint monitoring and evaluation commission, | 0:20:05 | 0:20:07 | |
has said, I applaud Salva Kiir's leadership. | 0:20:07 | 0:20:09 | |
So you've been written out of the picture. | 0:20:09 | 0:20:16 | |
OK. | 0:20:16 | 0:20:19 | |
Has the war stopped? | 0:20:19 | 0:20:20 | |
The war hasn't stopped, but the international community has | 0:20:20 | 0:20:23 | |
lined up a between Salva Kiir and his new deputy, Taban Deng, | 0:20:23 | 0:20:26 | |
who is from the Nuer tribe, as you are. | 0:20:26 | 0:20:30 | |
You've just spoken about a genocide looming. | 0:20:30 | 0:20:32 | |
This is a report by the UN. | 0:20:32 | 0:20:35 | |
If that government was doing something that was good | 0:20:35 | 0:20:38 | |
for the country, definitely there would be no reports talking | 0:20:38 | 0:20:40 | |
about genocide in that country. | 0:20:40 | 0:20:42 | |
So, in a nutshell, the peace agreement has collapsed. | 0:20:42 | 0:20:44 | |
There is no agreement in place. | 0:20:44 | 0:20:50 | |
The government continues to pursue a scorched earth policy | 0:20:50 | 0:20:53 | |
for targeting civilians, for targeting those that | 0:20:53 | 0:20:55 | |
are dissenting voices. | 0:20:55 | 0:20:55 | |
Now the war has escalated even more. | 0:20:55 | 0:21:01 | |
So if the international community believe, and President Salva Kiir | 0:21:01 | 0:21:04 | |
believes, that by having Taban Deng as his deputy, | 0:21:04 | 0:21:11 | |
replacing the person appointed by the government, | 0:21:11 | 0:21:15 | |
will bring peace, we should have seen peace now. | 0:21:15 | 0:21:25 | |
Well, they are working on it. | 0:21:25 | 0:21:26 | |
In December last year, President Salva Kiir announced | 0:21:26 | 0:21:29 | |
a new national dialogue. | 0:21:29 | 0:21:30 | |
Again, the international community have said they will support this | 0:21:30 | 0:21:32 | |
national dialogue in any way that they can. | 0:21:32 | 0:21:35 | |
Why don't you join this national dialogue and renounce violence? | 0:21:35 | 0:21:37 | |
The national dialogue can never be a replacement for a peace process | 0:21:37 | 0:21:41 | |
that would end the war. | 0:21:41 | 0:21:45 | |
A national dialogue, you need a conducive environment | 0:21:45 | 0:21:48 | |
where people can actually freely speak. | 0:21:48 | 0:21:49 | |
Something that is absent now in South Sudan. | 0:21:49 | 0:21:51 | |
For you to join a national dialogue, you first of all must create | 0:21:51 | 0:21:56 | |
the environment whereby you have that space for everybody to be able | 0:21:56 | 0:21:59 | |
to express themselves. | 0:21:59 | 0:22:01 | |
And this is what we are saying. | 0:22:01 | 0:22:04 | |
Let's create that space by resuscitating the agreement, | 0:22:04 | 0:22:06 | |
and once the agreement is resuscitated, we will have | 0:22:06 | 0:22:08 | |
the environment, and the agreement now provides the road map | 0:22:08 | 0:22:11 | |
for the dialogue. | 0:22:11 | 0:22:20 | |
How can you do that when Riek Machar is in South Africa? | 0:22:20 | 0:22:24 | |
By the way, is he in exile? | 0:22:24 | 0:22:26 | |
Is he under house arrest in South Africa? | 0:22:26 | 0:22:28 | |
He's not under house arrest. | 0:22:28 | 0:22:29 | |
Under country arrest, as it were? | 0:22:29 | 0:22:31 | |
The South Africans themselves have answered and said he's not | 0:22:31 | 0:22:33 | |
under house arrest. | 0:22:34 | 0:22:34 | |
So why isn't he going around lobbying governments, | 0:22:34 | 0:22:36 | |
and you're doing it instead? | 0:22:36 | 0:22:38 | |
Because I'm a member of the movement. | 0:22:38 | 0:22:40 | |
Remember, I negotiated our security... | 0:22:40 | 0:22:41 | |
Sure. | 0:22:41 | 0:22:41 | |
But can he move around? | 0:22:41 | 0:22:43 | |
He can move. | 0:22:43 | 0:22:43 | |
Is he going to go back to South Sudan, not to Juba... | 0:22:43 | 0:22:47 | |
Definitely. | 0:22:47 | 0:22:47 | |
South Sudan is home. | 0:22:47 | 0:22:48 | |
But I really want to go back to... | 0:22:48 | 0:22:50 | |
He will go back? | 0:22:50 | 0:22:51 | |
Definitely. | 0:22:51 | 0:22:52 | |
Does he still think he's Vice President? | 0:22:52 | 0:22:56 | |
He's not Vice President, because there's no transitional | 0:22:56 | 0:22:58 | |
government of national unity in place. | 0:22:58 | 0:23:00 | |
The government in Juba is the regime. | 0:23:00 | 0:23:02 | |
Since the agreement has collapsed, that leaves you with a regime that | 0:23:02 | 0:23:05 | |
he's not part of. | 0:23:05 | 0:23:06 | |
Finally, in the last few seconds, a senior African statesman, | 0:23:06 | 0:23:09 | |
who is very aware of what is going on in South Sudan, | 0:23:09 | 0:23:12 | |
has told me that South Sudan will know no peace until both | 0:23:12 | 0:23:16 | |
Salva Kiir and Riek Machar quit the scene. | 0:23:16 | 0:23:18 | |
He's right, isn't he? | 0:23:18 | 0:23:19 | |
He's not right. | 0:23:19 | 0:23:26 | |
He's not right? | 0:23:26 | 0:23:29 | |
He's not right. | 0:23:29 | 0:23:30 | |
Because we, as in opposition, offer an alternative. | 0:23:30 | 0:23:32 | |
We have a programme in place that we believe we actually can | 0:23:32 | 0:23:35 | |
transform that country, and move it to the next level. | 0:23:35 | 0:23:43 | |
We know that President Salva Kiir cannot do that, because he has been | 0:23:44 | 0:23:47 | |
given many opportunities. | 0:23:47 | 0:23:48 | |
We try even to do it with him. | 0:23:48 | 0:23:50 | |
We even introduced, before the outbreak of the 2013 crisis, | 0:23:50 | 0:23:53 | |
a process of national reconciliation that would allow the South Sudanese | 0:23:53 | 0:23:56 | |
people to actually move on. | 0:23:56 | 0:23:57 | |
President Salva abrogated it. | 0:23:57 | 0:23:58 | |
Angelina Teney, we leave it there. | 0:23:58 | 0:24:00 | |
Thank you for coming on HARDtalk. | 0:24:00 | 0:24:02 | |
Thank you. | 0:24:02 | 0:24:12 |