14/12/2016 HARDtalk

online TV service in the UK by 2020. You are up today. Now, it is

aardvark. Welcome to HARDtalk,

with me, Zeinab Badawi. The people of South Sudan have known

little peace for many decades, and independence in 2011 has brought

them nothing but war, increasing poverty and

starvation, and suffering. Tens of thousands have died,

and more than 3 million have been forced to leave their homes

in the past three years. The United Nations says,

"The current spate of fighting amounts to ethnic cleansing,

and could spiral into genocide." The main rebel group is headed

by the former Vice President, My guest today is his wife,

Angelina Teny, who is a senior How much responsibility do they bear

for the suffering in South Sudan? The situation in

South Sudan is dire. What are you hearing about what's

going on on the ground? The humanitarian situation has

reached a level of catastrophe. The war is escalating even further,

and the economic situation, what we could say is it is no longer

on a free fall, but rather it has So, in a nutshell, you can

say that the situation for the normal citizen,

for the person there, The United Nations humanitarian

chief, Stephen O'Brien, says that 6 million people,

that's half of the population, are 5 million are in

danger of starvation. 3 million have been forced

to leave their homes. A million refugees, 2 million

internally displaced people. Who do you think is

responsible for this? Well, I can say that we are

responsible for ending it, and this We'll all come to that,

about ending it, but who do I would say the way our president,

President Salva, led the country has really led to this situation,

because what had happened is that our country,

just before starting, from 2011, was turned

into a police state. So dissenting views

are really not accepted. Then, when members of the ruling

party, the SPLM, tried to start a dialogue within the party in order

to recreate a vision and a direction for the country,

the President did not welcome that. You claim President Salva Kiir

of South Sudan, but I have to put it to you that your husband,

Riek Machar, who is the main rebel leader, has been a significant

player in South Sudan He's been a Vice President,

on and off, for 15 years, and he has to share the blame

for the situation that the people of South Sudan find

themselves in today. Well, definitely I cannot say

that he has been out of the system. He has been in the system

in South Sudan, but what you have to know is that my chairman,

when he decided to actually raise the concerns that our country

was facing, that is what brought the fallout, and that is

what actually led President Salva to introduce violence,

in order to rest finally peaceful dialogues within the party

and within the country. You're talking about the recent

fallout that the two About that one, not just from 2013,

because you know we've been engaged in trying to,

during the interim period, really to ensure that

the referendum succeeds. While we were doing that,

President Salva was also He was elected, and your husband,

Riek Machar, you were referring to the referendum in 2011 that

brought independence to South Sudan, But let me just carry

on my train of thought for you, which is that Riek Machar must share

the burden of responsibility South Sudan analyst,

former deputy defence minister Majak D'Agoot refers to the gun

class in South Sudan, "Sectarian warlords,

like Riek Machar, who have historically used violence,

channelled through appeals to ethnic nationalism,

to hijack the state Well, I would dispute that

as an accurate statement, because also Majak, as you know,

is another politician However, I want to establish

the fact that my husband, ..has been on records all the time

trying to correct the situation, trying to introduce institutional

reforms, systems of governance that will ensure a democratic

transformation, and this is actually what brings the fallout

between the leaders. I am not here to say

that there aren't many abundant criticism of

President Salva Kiir's government. There are many, from

the international community, But I am talking to you,

as a senior member of the Sudan People's Liberation

Movement-in-Opposition. If there are issues to put

to the government of South Sudan, we on HARDtalk will do that

when we talk to them. But if I may just continue

with putting to you some of the criticisms that are made

about your movement. So, you say that civilians

are being killed on the basis of tribal affiliations,

but there are reliable reports that rebel forces

of your opposition movement, or affiliated with your

movement, have also killed If you go back to the records,

including even the UN report, you will find

since when we officially established the SPLM-IO in April 2014,

that those those incidences have, in one way or another,

what ever that had happened before that we have investigated,

and we have actually addressed, since that, our movement has

not made it a policy, and therefore, you will not find

that there are incidences actually attributed to us

since we established organised. Human Rights Watch says in October

2016, rebels claiming affiliation with Riek Machar ambushed a convoy

of cars and trucks carrying civilians fleeing Yei,

killing mostly Dinka. The Dinka, of course, are the tribe

of President Salva Kiir - according to the CIA World Factbook,

about 36% of South Then Nuer tribe, from which you

and your husband hail, about 15%. I know the figures are disputed,

that they are the most Anyway, the point is that Dinka

were killed, mostly, An 11-year-old boy said, "They

started to shoot, and I lay down. The rebels then burned the truck,

killing dozens of occupants inside." Actually, my chairman has directed

an investigation if these are people truly affiliated to us,

because our people on the ground are under orders, with clear

and specific instructions, that they are not fighting

a war with anyone. Rather, they are resisting

the onslaught from the government. So that incident that

has been attributed by the Human Rights Watch,

we have investigated. Our forces on that part

of South Sudan have actually denied any responsibility,

or being part of it. The United Nations Mission,

UNMISS, in South Sudan, said in a very detailed report

in 2014, "Pro-Riek Machar forces sacked the oil town

of Bentiu in April 2014, killing hundreds of civilians,

notably in the mosque, the hospital, Definitely, actually,

the ICRC has done a report and we have a commission,

and we have actually made the report public,

and the people that were identified by the ICRC were

brought to book by... The International Committee

of the Red Cross, yes. I don't want to keep on doing

that, but there are... You know, UNMISS, the United Nations

mission, says there are reasonable grounds to believe that violations

of international human rights and humanitarian law have been

committed by both parties I would not deny absolutely to say

nothing had happened, that I would say it is not a policy,

and we are very determined to always, when something like that

happens, it is addressed, it is investigated, and the culprits

are actually brought to account. Yes, it is tragic, but we,

as a responsible organisation, don't believe you should allow

people who do that UNMISS, the UN, is urging both sides

to control their forces. We have, because if you go

back to the incidences of the Juba crisis on July 8th,

you would find that the way the SPLM-in-Opposition

conducted themselves, you would find civilians telling

you that we have actually got directives and protections,

and we have shown what to do and where to go, and so on,

whereas after we'd withdrawn, the catastrophe that

happened in Juba after that, well, everybody knows

about it, the killings... You are talking about the active

combat that broke out in July last year in the South Sudanese capital,

Juba, between Salva Kiir But I have to say to you that

you did not emerge without criticism Human Rights Watch again said,

"Regardless of the intentions of Machar's forces,

of going into civilian sites, the impact of the manoeuvre

was to endanger the thousands of civilians who were sheltering

in these UN protection sites, and that would constitute a war

crime of using human shields." And they also said, "Any Dinka

civilians who remained So you raised one example

of what went on there in July, and I'm saying to you,

again, that the forces of the SPLM-in-Opposition had

not emerged unscathed. Given that our side was very close

to the UN protection site, this is where the whole battle

actually took place. So we had no way of withdrawing

other than through that route, But what ever your intentions were,

you endangered civilians. I think it is worth explaining that,

as the conflict research American Alan Boswell,

based in Kenya, writing a book about South Sudan,

says," I think you have to different You have a fight between

President Salva Kiir and Riek Machar's coalitions over

who will be king, but there are a bunch of smaller groups

in South Sudan who are waging war So we accept that there are a range

of different perpetrators and unnamed militia groups

and so one, but the fact does remain, and I ask you again,

what do you say to the criticisms that forces of the Sudan People's

Liberation Movement-in-Opposition have committed some of these

atrocities against civilians - rape, looting, killing, violence,

that you yourself had condemned? We are saying that, as a movement,

we do not condone any of this. Even when we were negotiating

the agreement, the agreement and the resolution of the conflict

in the Republic of South Sudan, we stood very firm,

and we are on record. We fought for the inclusion

of transitional justice. Actually, we say justice

and accountability. And this is because we feel

that we must end impunity, and we must make people who actually

commit crimes against other human Including your chairman,

your husband? We call for it, we call for it

because we feel that it is needed. It is what will end

the situation in South sedan. It will end impunity,

and we say it without exception. Just on this point of genocide,

which is a very, very important one, because Adama Dieng,

the UN Special Adviser on the Prevention of Genocide,

said at the end of last year, after visiting South Sudan,

"I was dismayed that what I saw confirmed my concern

that there is a strong risk of violence escalating along ethnic

lines with the potential Our thinking is not even looming,

but rather in progress. Already the Obasanjo report,

which is the report ..had already established

that ethnic cleansing In the span of one week,

over 20,000 people were killed just because they belonged

to an ethnic group. This was done by men

in uniform, by government. Well, that's your accusation,

and I'm sure it will be looked at. Now, when you come to this situation

today, it is even worse, It is in Southern Unity,

it is in Central Equatoria, We have just walked

from Juba, after July. And we have seen it with our own

eyes, and it is a plan President Salva is on record

saying that we will hand There are criticisms

made about Salva Kiir, but I have to put it to you that

you are parties to this conflict, and arguably, are fuelling a lot

of the violence that For example, in September last

year, your movement, the SPLM-in-Opposition,

declared war on what it described as the "regime" in Juba,

saying it wants to wage a popular armed resistance against

the authoritarian and fascist regime of President Salva Kiir in order

to bring peace, freedom, democracy and the rule

of law in the country. Because there is already a war

going on, because already the regime The evidence to that is that,

unless you are telling us I have to say to you,

but you know yourself, Angelina Teney, that there

was widespread condemnation The US State Department's spokesman,

John Kirby, 28 September, said, "The US government strongly condemns

Riek Machar's statement." A joint statement by the troika

powers, the EU, Norway and the US, as well as other governments also

condemned calls by the opposition leaders for a renewal

of armed conflict. "Further fighting won't solve

South Sudan's pressing political It will only increase the suffering

of South Sudan's people", they said. I can tell you that if you saw

the communique that we issued during that meeting,

it talks about a political process that is needed

for the resuscitation That statement of the resistance

was actually the last So it was an option for the people

of South Sudan to continue, to be defended from the onslaught

that is going on. So our declaration is actually

for a political process. Look, that is not how

it is being seen at all. The East African Group of Nations,

known as EGAD, has said, on the 9th of December

in a communique, "We call upon the SPLM-in-Opposition

to renounce violence as a means of solving the problems

of South Sudan." We say, tell the government in Juba

to stop the offensive, the pursuit of people based

on ethnic affiliation, We say that if you hold

the government to account, because the government in Juba gets

encouraged with this statement, In fact, they are the one

on the offensive. Whatever the opposition

is doing, it's basically You're saying you're resisting,

but you use violence to resist? The other options are,

you go to be a refugee, you go to be internally displaced,

or you go to a UN protection camp, but if you find yourself,

that there is a way you can fight back, these people will fight back,

especially when there is no hope now, without any peace

process in place. Of course, there was a deal

in August 2015, known as "the agreement" for a resolution

of the conflict in South Sudan. You think that there is still a way

forward by resuscitating that? But there are also reports,

as we had in October, that Riek Machar announced that that

agreement was dead. We feel that it needs to be renewed

so that it is resuscitated, so that the people of South Sudan

are given a chance again to start. Remember, we did take risks

and we did go to Juba Only even based on some of the UN

reports, as you know, President Salva started to introduce

violence, and we had to leave Now we are still committed

to a political settlement. This political settlement,

we believe that this agreement has It any needs to be revived,

to be reviewed, so that we can also But really, you've been

marginalised, you've been pushed to the sidelines,

Riek Machar, the leader We've seen Taban Deng appointed

as the new Vice President. The international community have

lined up behind him, and President Salva Kiir,

rightly or wrongly, is being seen as somebody that the international

community can deal with. Festus Mogae, former

president of Botswana, who chairs the joint monitoring

and evaluation commission, has said, So you've been written

out of the picture. The war hasn't stopped,

but the international community has lined up a between Salva Kiir

and his new deputy, Taban Deng, who is from the Nuer

tribe, as you are. You've just spoken

about a genocide looming. If that government was doing

something that was good for the country, definitely

there would be no reports talking So, in a nutshell, the peace

agreement has collapsed. The government continues to pursue

a scorched earth policy for targeting civilians,

for targeting those that So if the international community

believe, and President Salva Kiir believes, that by having Taban Deng

as his deputy, replacing the person appointed by the government,

will bring peace, we should have In December last year,

President Salva Kiir announced Again, the international community

have said they will support this national dialogue in any way

that they can. Why don't you join this national

dialogue and renounce violence? The national dialogue can never be

a replacement for a peace process A national dialogue,

you need a conducive environment where people can

actually freely speak. Something that is absent

now in South Sudan. For you to join a national dialogue,

you first of all must create the environment whereby you have

that space for everybody to be able Let's create that space

by resuscitating the agreement, and once the agreement

is resuscitated, we will have the environment,

and the agreement now provides How can you do that when Riek Machar

is in South Africa. Is he under house

arrest in South Africa? The South Africans themselves have

answered and said he's So why isn't he going around

lobbying governments, Because I'm a member

of the movement. Remember, I negotiated

our security... Is he going to go back

to South Sudan, not to Juba... Does he still think

he's Vice President? He's not Vice President,

because there's no transitional government of national

unity in place. The government in

Juba is the regime. Since the agreement has collapsed,

that leaves you with a regime Finally, in the last few seconds,

a senior African statesman, who is very aware of what is going

on in South Sudan, has told me that South Sudan will know no peace

until both Salva Kiir Because we, as in opposition,

offer an alternative. We have a programme in place

that we believe we actually can transform that country,

and move it to the next level. We know that President Salva Kiir

cannot do that, because he has been We even introduced, before

the outbreak of the 2013 crisis, a process of national reconciliation

that would allow the South Sudanese