Vicente Fox - Former Mexico President, 2000-2006 HARDtalk

Welcome to HARDtalk. I am Stephen Sackur. Donald Trump has wasted

little time delivering on his signature campaign promises. He has

already ordered the building of "that wall." The US Congress will

find it, but ultimately, Donald Trump says Mexico will pay. My guest

today is the former Mexican president Vicente Fox whose

expletive filled tweets to Donald Trump have caused a storm on social

media. Can Mexico afford to tango with Donald Trump?

Vicente Fox in Mexico, welcome to HARDtalk what a pleasure. Hello,

Europe, hello London, fellow Briton. Well, hello to you. Here is a

question, how badly does Mexico need a good working relationship with any

US president? I think a good relationship is always important and

is strategic for any nation and any economy when you were dealing with

the most powerful, the largest economic, marketing the world. So it

is important. Very important. But sometimes you cannot take your own

decisions. All of a sudden appears Donald Trump. He is disrupting

everything, and not for the better, but for the worse, with Europe, with

Mexico, with Latin America, with the Muslim world, with China. He is

willing to fight with everybody. He will never win against the world.

Yeah, but he has only been in office for two weeks. And you have taken

the decision many months ago when he was still on the campaign trail to

antagonise him and take him on as much as you can. And in so far as

you are an extraordinarily powerful voice in Mexico, a former president,

do you think that was wise? Well, we have three issues that have to do

with Mexico and the United States and their relationship. Start with

the wall. He can build as many walls as he wants, he can enclose that

little nation behind four walls because of fear and because of his

crazy ideas, but what he will never ever attain is Mexico paying for the

wall. That is a different thing. That has to do with sovereignty,

that has to do with dignity, that has to do with pride. So, President

Enrique Pena Nieto has stated very clearly on the name of 120 million

Mexicans, we are not paying for that stupid wall that he wants to build.

Builder did you want with US taxpayer money. That is the only

source of money he might get. -- build it if you want. He is not even

sure he will get it because many Republicans do not agree with him.

Many state governments do not agree with him. Because all of them lived

out of the trading that we have through Nafta. Mexico and the United

States. Let me. Right there. That is a very powerful statement that you

have just made. They are all ways to make Mexico pay. He has to get the

wall built with Congress funds, but he will put tariffs are new, he said

20% may be. He will charge you more to send remittances back home. He

will find ways to make the Mexican people pay for his wall. Let me tell

you. Every action has a reaction. If he taxes imports to the United

States coming from Mexico, we will tax exports of the United States to

Mexico. As you know, we have an even situation on trading. We sell every

year to the United States was to 300 billion US dollars' worth of goods

and products. And they sell to Mexico almost the equivalent amount.

So nobody will win in a trade war. Everybody will lose, starting with

the US consumer, that will have to pay 20% more for the car he is

buying, 20% more for the guacamole that he is buying, 20% more for the

tequila that he is buying... I dare say that Americans can live with a

little less guacamole and a little less tequila. But the fact is your

economy is per capita more dependent on your trading relationship with

the United States than the United States is on you. So when it comes

down to that raw things about leverage, the US has the leverage,

you don't. You are right. We all lose. But look at this We have a

trade agreement with Europe. We have a trade agreement with Britain, is

leading with the European Union. If Britain gets out, still we can put

together a trade agreement. And let me tell you, the European Union

market is 500 million people. The US market is 300 million people. The

gross product of the union, the European Union, altogether is larger

than the gross product of the United States. So we just have to look to

outside. We have a trade agreement with Asia, we have a trade agreement

with Latin America are. So many Mexico is the economy that has more

trade agreements than anyone else. We don't want to lose the market of

the United States. But if this crazy died, -- guy, Trump, goes for his

will, not those of the Americans, he will sacrifice the well-being of

Americans. The geography of this is simple. You and the United States

will be locked together forever whether you like it or not. I come

back to the theme of political wisdom. Is it wise for you to use

those words you have outlined, and that other words, the "F" word,

would you have used about your refusal to pay for the wall, there

is something about using the appropriate tone and establishing a

dialogue. It seems to me that you read your attitude to Donald Trump

are making dialogue impossible. -- with. Yes. If he wants to respect,

he has to start respecting others. He has not shown that. And my worry

is that President Pena does not have enough courage to stand against him

like we did when we nationalised the oil 100 years ago. Like Mexico did

when we were invaded by their army. He is saying, he proposed to Pena,

that he is willing to send the US Army. Go to hell, Trump. Mexico does

not admit in its territory by Constitution any armies from

anywhere in the world. Use your army, Donald Trump, tothe

consumption of drugs, to stop drugs circulating all over the United

States every day. In every single corner of the United States there is

drug consumption. And he complains about Mexico. Why doesn't he stopped

drug -- stop drugs circulating in his own country? Where is the DEA,

the FBI, the CIA? We will get to that. One more word about Donald

Trump. You said this to a TV network in relation to Donald Trump a few

days ago. When I saw today's gathering of the Republican Party in

their retreat with Donald Trump in the middle, it reminded me of Hitler

addressing the Nazi Party. That is extreme language. Are you saying

that apart from anything else, Donald Trump is an out and out races

when it comes to Mexicans and Mexico? Absolutely is. -- racist.

Let us not laying him, let us blame his followers, like the Nazi party.

-- blame. The Republican Party, they follow him blindly. They do not

question him. Vicente Fox, you cannot bandy around this word

lightly. We know what they were responsible for in the 1930s and

40s. Donald Trump, the many millions that elected him to the office of

the United States, you cannot, surely, you cannot label them Nazis.

Excuse me. Excuse me. Congressmen, a Member of Parliament in England,

they are elected by people to serve the people in any democracy, not

deserve his political party. That is what I think is blind on the side of

Congress, men and senators of the Republican Party in the United

States. You do not follow a false prophet when he is taking you to the

desert. You think on your own and you make your own free decisions.

And that is what I was referring to in my comment. Just... I want to

move on. I want to think specifically now about the

immigration issue which of course Donald Trump campaigned on and one

millions of votes on securing the US border. We have talked about the

wall he wants to build, but isn't there a fundamental hypocrisy in

Mexico. When you criticised his plan to secure America's border with

Mexico, you in your country have consistently under your leadership

and other presidents as well failed to secure your southern border, with

the result that hundreds of thousands of Latin Americans from

Central America come into Mexico, many of them wanting to get into the

United States, and exacerbating the immigration problem. It is tiny

sorted out your own water security. False, false, and true statements

you are mentioning. Let me go one by one. Number one, we want a secure

border. We Mexicans want a secure border, the same as the United

States and their citizens. But not the way he is trying to do it. The

wall, let him build whatever wall he wants the. If he wants to construct

a useless wall like the Chinese people did against their enemies,

the Mongols, it did not work. They jumped the wall, they invader China,

they conquered China. It happened very close to Britain. That war

could not retain anybody away from freedom. That had to be torn down.

If he wants to build a wall, it is already there are. But today we do

not use the stick, we use intelligence, we use wisdom, we use

negotiation, we use, like you say, speaking to each other. But when he

uses a stick like the old US empire, imposing their will in the world,

putting in and taking out governments, that cannot be the

future. I understand. You have pretty Donald Trump during this

interview, but I am asking you to critique yourself. -- critiqued. Let

us look to the south. One of the reasons the migration problem is so

profound is because you guys are now quoting the Washington office of

Latin American studies. They are saying that your hardline policies

on migration issues in the south of your country have risen consistently

ineffective in deterring immigration. -- proven. They have

violated human rights and have brought about abuse and violence.

That is on you and Mexico. It is nothing to do with Donald Trump in

the United States. will ship let me criticise myself and

criticise Mexico. We have compassion. Like Europe is showing

today. When there are people suffering, when there are people

running away from violence, like the Syrians, you use your compassion and

share it with others. That is the way we think in Mexico. We do not

use a stick. We are not only up to money and economic growth. We

consider the human side of people because of humanity, and listen. He

just said, the world does not belong, it belongs to she manatee,

it is not belong to Trump and United States. Nations belong to citizens.

Our border in the south is not what it should be because there is

hunger, there is poverty. There are also abuses, systemic abuses carried

out by your security forces and there is corruption. Calls. All that

comes from Maureen Meyer who has researched this from the Washington

office of Latin America. Mexico has a problem, would you agree? If we

have a problem, we have to correct them. But that does not give Trump

the right to intervene in our internal public policies. That does

not give him the right to treat inhumanely most people from anywhere

of the world. Mexico has to correct, yes, the problem of drugs and

violence and we are going to legalise drug consumption so that we

take away the money from the cartels. By the way, money that

comes from the United States consumption. Number two, we have to

move the economy, to recreate jobs, to create opportunities which we are

doing now. In my part of Mexico, we are full employment right now, full

employment and salary is going up so we are doing our work. It's not as

we wish, we wish we could do more but again, I think it is, it's a

threat that we have and it's a dangerous threat. You have talked

about the drugs problem quite a lot in this interview so let's get down

into it in specifics right now. I've been in your country before and came

not so long ago, quite a number of years ago now, to interview

President Calderon. He declared a total and complete war on the

cartels and the drug lords. That failed. We have president Pena Nieto

who has taken a different approach and that has failed as well. We have

seen the violence rise again. 90% of all the drugs, serious drugs that

which United States go through Mexico are produced in Mexico

because production in your country is on the rise as well. Everything

that you have done, and am talking about you yourself and your

successors, has completely failed to stop the flow of drugs from your

country into the United States and again, that is new. Yes. Yes, yes.

That is why we will legalise, same as United States is doing, because

we are fighting a war against drugs which is not ours. I ask you and I

ask Trump and I ask American people, what happens once those words of

drugs across the border? Where are the US authorities? Where is the

army? They do the consumption, they are happy consuming and we pay in

blood. 160,000 kids have died on President Calderon's Administration

and on Pena Nieto's administration. 160,000 kids. They did not have

criminality in their genes. And yet they joined the cartels. That is a

tragedy, Mr Fox. It is a tragedy. So do you think legalising cocaine and

heroin and methamphetamines, all of which are now manufactured in

Mexico, is going to solve the problem? Take away the manufacturing

in Mexico. Most of them comes from the south in transit to the north.

But some is now being made in Mexico. Anyway, anyway let's discuss

the issue. Portugal legalise all drugs and it's working. The State of

Colorado and Washington and California, they have legalised

marijuana consumption. The State of Israel is now producing marijuana

and claiming they have the best marijuana in the world and they

are... We're not talking marijuana here. We're not talking here. I am

full legalisation of all drugs. We human beings should be responsible

for our own health and that is why the world has come to accept

abortion and marriages of different sexes because we are and have to be

responsible for our own behaviour. The State, governments, will never

solve that problem from us. It is a promise that has never been complied

with. 40 years ago, President Nixon launched the global war on drugs.

What happened? Total failure. Consumption goes up and up and yes,

we have to correct things in Mexico. We are not happy with what we have

but again, that doesn't give Trump the possibility for the prerogative

or speaking so many stupid things during modern single day. -- during

one single day. I have to turn to Mexican politics. President Pena

Nieto has an approval rating of 12%, deeply, deeply unpopular. It looks

like the most convincing candidate to take the presidency may be Mr

Obrador. You have had a long experience with him. You try to stop

him running for president in 2006. He almost won. He looks like the

populist leftist who could learn something from Trump and make

Mexican politics much more populist. Are you worried about that?

Absolutely, yes. Please. We do not want Obrador here. We could see Hugo

Chavez, Castro, the rest of the gang here in Latin America. Populism

doesn't work. But Mr Fox, my point is, your language on Trump, you are

talking the same sort of populism that Obrador is talking. Pena Nieto

is cautious to criticise Trump. The only people in Mexico who go up to

Trump are you and Obrador so you are playing into his hands. I have

tweets about 28 million people so people are listening. People are

coming out to the streets, people are manifesting themselves. It is

not me. It is the people that are decent, that work hard, but are

trying to build a future that understand how trade and government

works, that the stupid war on drugs, that we need to do a lot of things

but Lopez Obrador is not the solution to Mexico's problems. He

will get us into the same disorder that is happening. They don't have

food to eat Right now. That is populism. That is demagoguery. That

is the extreme left. And I hope Britain, unfortunately the United

States now moved into populism, and false promises with this false

prophet that is Trump. I want for my country, the good governance with

honesty, with honour ability, with the capacity and let's see what

Mexican people decide, is on their hands to decide. Isn't the bottom

line in all of this conversation that you may wish to Trump weren't

in power but the fact is, the use and the United States, in its

relationship with Mexico, does hold pretty much all the cards. So what

you say on Twitter and everything else, the Mexican government will

have to find a practical way of working with Trump? Sure. Sure,

that's a conclusion that is mistaken. The plans of Ford, the

motor Co, Chrysler and GM are here in Mexico. They are not going to

take them away. If they want a car, let them do. Ford has decided not to

build a new plant in Mexico. You know that. Ford has decided to

cancel its plans for a new plant in Mexico. I know that. I know, and

they are getting now a boycott. They are not selling the amount of cars

they used to be selling in Mexico. Governments have cancelled orders,

consumers have cancelled orders for Ford Motor Company survey the better

think about what they win and lose by following a false prophet. They

are going to be losing a lot of money and a lot of markets in the

world if they keep listening and following blindly Donald Trump.

Vicente Fox, we had to end there but I thank you very much for joining me

from central Mexico, thank you very much indeed. Stephen, a pleasure.

Here is your home and the home of every Briton. Thank you.

Well, for some of us on Tuesday it felt quite springlike.

For others, though, it was distinctly wintry,

with some snow up over the higher ground of Scotland in particular.