Norma McCorvey, Roe v Wade Abortion Case HARDtalk

OLDER THEME PLAYS. When it comes to the legal history of the United

States, the case of Roe v Wade is a landmark. It culminated in the

decision to legalise abortion, and has been bitterly challenged ever

since. Among me is Jane Roe who was in the case. She has dropped the

pseudonym and now has the opposite opinion. Norma McCorvey, that is

your real name. Yes, it is. Welcome to the programme. No abortion, as

far as you are concerned under any circumstances, period? None at all.

You are saying you are not antiabortion, you are pro life. What

is the difference? I think the antiabortion stigma comes from the

pro- abortion movement. We call them pro- abortion so we call them

antiabortion. Which is true? You are right. It is a negative. And I am

really not negative. So, I like to say I am pro life. And you are pro

life... As far as everything goes, across your whole life? Yes. Against

capital punishment? Absolutely against it. Even though you voted

for George Bush and will vote for George Bush? How do you know I voted

for George Bush? You did, didn't you? It is the first time I voted.

But you did? Yes, I did. This man, the Texas governor, is responsible

for some of the highest execution in his state. I suppose he was. I did

not really keep up with it. I did not vote. I was a non-voting person

until George Bush was running for the US presidential election. And I

decided to go and vote. But you don't see any conflict in that and

you're otherwise pro life stance? -- your. No, I don't. You say you are a

Christian now and you never were before. Do you think abortion is

incompatible with Christianity? Abortion is killing. And in the ten

commandments it says thou shalt not kill. And so I agree with the ten

Commandments and all the teachings of the Catholic Church. Specifically

the Catholic Church? Well, with each church that agrees that abortion is

wrong. The Church of England, for example, says when the continuance

of a pregnancy threatens the life of the mother, a termination may be

justified, though there must be safe and adequate provision in our

society for such adulation is. Is that a godless approach? That --

situations. I think... They may be rare, but they are also important.

They are We are talking about the life of a woman and child. It is a

balance, isn't it? That of course it is. It does not make it... The child

is nonetheless a child if it is conceived in rape or incest. It is

still a child. I understand that. But in the case where a mother may

be threatened, which is what the Church of England is talking

about... I do not go to the Church of England... I am saying there is a

balance to be taken account of. Of course there is. If a mother is

going to die in childbirth, if it is the view of a doctor that is going

to happen, do you favour the life of the unborn fetus over that of the

mother? I really do not think that is a very fair question, but I will

give you my opinion. We will do anything to save the life of the

mother and also the life of the child. But what if you cannot? What

if you have to make a choice? What then? Then that decision has to be

made by that particular woman's husband, her pastor, or her priest.

But not the woman herself? If the woman is able to make the decision

herself, then it is her decision. I guess. I don't know. I don't have

all the answers. But you did say at the top that there should be no

abortion under any circumstances. We are now discussing some

circumstances that it is possible. But it is very rare. Yes, but you

would support it under those circumstances? Under those

circumstances. There are some you might. You are open. Your mind is

not closed on this. You suggested at the top of the issue that you were

completely closed to this but we found a chink of light in this.

There is a chink of light as you put it in everyone's soul. It depends on

what the climate is. It depends on the basic decision, which should be

done by the people that are involved with it. OK. So it is not an

absolute. It is not an absolute no abortion under any circumstances? I

stand by the teachings of the Catholic Church, Tim. And I have

worked in abortion clinics. And I see what abortion does to women.

There are millions of... What do you mean by that, beyond carrying out

the operation? What do you mean, "What they do to women." They do not

give them proper counselling, they just take their money, do the

abortion, and they do not really care if they leave the woman OK or

not. Are you talking about illegal abortion? I am talking about

legalised abortion. They said in a 7-2 in 1973 that a woman should be

able to choose if she wants a safe abortion. And abortion is not safe.

There are still women who are dying in the United States from legalised

abortion. You can go to just about any pro life... How many are we

talking about? We are talking about thousands. Really? Where do you get

these figures from? I have no basis for my figures, OK? But I will tell

you this, there are abortion doctors who come in, do and abortion real

quake, and then they have a golf date, and they take off, and they

don't really care if the woman has been... That goes through a lot of

the medical profession, doesn't it? That is true, but I am talking about

one specific area within medicine, and that is abortion. What about

birth control? Where do you stand without? Strictly in line, again,

with the teachings of the Catholic Church? Yes. But you are aware that

in huge parts of Africa, the Catholic Church turns a blind eye to

family planning and contraception? I don't know what the Catholic Church

does in Africa. I am from the United States. But you do not have a view

on this then? No. So your views are entirely restricted to the United

States? Somewhat. For a woman who was cited in Roe v Wade, you could

not have come further, could you? Away from that initial decision,

which used your name in the case to come up with The Supreme Court

decision, legalising abortion. You have turned full circle, haven't

you? Completely? Yes I have, completely. And I am very proud of

that. I am proud to know that I do not have to go into another abortion

clinic and watch women come out of abortion procedures crying and

wanting to call their mothers. I don't have to look at dismembered

bodies of children who have been ripped out of their mothers' wounds.

I don't have those nightmares and more. I refuse to have those

nightmares. But for a quarter of a century, you believed abortion to

be... For a quarter of a century I was misled. To be OK. I was told...

How would you misled? I was told by the two attorneys, Sarah Weddingon

and another that if it was made legal in taxes it would put an end

to rape and incest. It did not happen. -- Texas. There is just as

much going on as it was in 1973 and 1947. Are you saying you were

misled? I was. By my former lawyers, yet. But in 1983, you are quoted in

a book called The Law Giveth, talking about Sara. I have never

heard of it. It was by Barbara. Who is she? She is an offer. Good for

her. She says she is patient, she never put me off, and knowing Sarah

is better than knowing the Queen of England. Laughing. I must have been

stoned when I said that, Tim. You said that. Many people change quotes

to suit needs. So you felt that you were manipulated by the lawyers?

Yes. But he went to the lawyers, didn't you? You wanted... You wanted

an abortion? I did. I went to an illegal abortion clinic in Dallas.

There was no one there. They had been arrested a week before I got

there. I was told by the attorney who was going to be handling my

adoption case for the baby I was wanting to abort that there were two

women who were freshly out of law school who wanted to overturn the

Texas statute on abortion. We met. They must let me. I made a mistake.

You feel that now despite what you were saying in 1983? I cannot help

what was said in 1983. That was too many years ago. When you wanted your

abortion, you were in your early 20s... Yes, I was. How did you get

pregnant? I had an affair. And it was inconvenient to get pregnant?

No. I did not want to bring another child into the world that I could

not take care of. You already had two. I already had two children. I

had won by my first marriage. I had one by an affair that I had by a

young man who came and got his daughter after she was born and took

responsibility for her. And that is what men have to do, they have to do

is one's ability for there actions. It is not just the woman's fault. In

order to get an abortion, you said that you had been raped, didn't you?

I did say that. Which wasn't true? That is right. Why did you keep that

story going for so long, for 15 years, in fact, didn't you? Yes, I

did. But I finally came clean in 1981, or 1980 I am not sure what

year it was, and I said that I had not been raped, that I had lied.

That I had been lied to. The daughter that you gave birth to, you

gave her up for adoption. Yes, I did the bite of the ever had any regrets

about that? No, Sir. Do you ever think about her? Of course, I do.

Ever wonder what she looks like? Of course, I do. But I promised I would

never bother her. Do you have pity for women these days who are in a

similar position to where you were then? Desperate, having found out

that they... Things are different. We have crisis pregnancy centres

that outnumber abortion clinics three - one. We have more

information out of the information highway, so to speak than we did in

1973. desperate when he found that you are

pregnant. I wasn't desperate. But he wanted an abortion. When I got there

and saw the conditions of the place, I couldn't go through with it. Dyoo

want to be to show you why. If I had gone through an abortion, which I

didn't. What are you showing me? Cut wrists. You would have committed

suicide? I tried to commit suicide. How many times? 45. At what point

did you try to commit suicide? I tried to commit suicide because I

really didn't want to have my name, Jane Roe, which is not my name, its

Norma McCorvey, tied up. I couldn't do it. I couldn't go through with

the abortion. It has nearly driven me mad to begin with, just knowing

that I was the plaintiff, just knowing that I was an executioner,

but I used to tell women that it was OK, it was all right. This was after

your experience? This was in the years afterwards. I worked in

abortion clinics from 1991- 1994. I saw so many women, two, three and

four times, until it wasn't even funny. A lot of women use abortion

is a mean of birth control. A lot of women use abortion for whatever

reason they want to and abortion should be stopped. Abortion stops at

a beating heart. But in the years when you worked in the abortion

clinics, you thought it was OK, didn't you? What were the reasons

for you thinking that it was OK? How did you justified to yourself and

then? I justified it, Tim, mostly every night with several pitchers of

margaritas, if you must know. I needed a job. Simply that? That's

it. And then, in 1995, it stopped suddenly all gradually? Gradually.

You gradually came to the realisation that you couldn't go on

like this? Yes, I did. And I met two very enchanting children by the name

of Emily and Chelsea Mackie and they showed me that there was another way

to live. And that way was to believe in God. And it's your religious

belief now that brought you to this point of view, that abortion cannot

be allowed? It's my soul's belief. You don't recognise the Norma

McCorvey who used to work in the abortion clinics any more? Who was

part of... Two was cheerleading for the cause of abortion? I never Cheer

led for the pro- abortion site. We never got along. I have nothing to

do with them. They would invite me places and then would refuse to let

me speak because I wasn't one of the beautiful people, I wasn't one of

the smartest people. I flew all the way to Washington, DC for a march in

1989 and they said no, but I had no business going there to speak

because they had Sarah Weddington. The argument that has put forward,

one of the main arguments that put forward for legalising abortion, for

keeping abortion legal in the United States is that it gives women the

choice, it gives them a fundamental rights over their bodies. Why would

you take that right away from them? I'm not trying to take anything away

from them. I'm trying to make them realise that it's a mistake. The

whole abortion industry was based on a foundation of lies. They don't

give a dam about women. All they do is... But it's the woman's decision

to make, isn't it? It is, but then women should not act as their own

gods. But The Supreme Court cleared the way, a balance of interests

between the state looking after life and women having privacy and control

over their lives. I don't really... Would you really take that control

away from them? This has been such a landmark decision, it's changed the

lives of millions of women across America, hasn't it? We filed a

motion 60 brief for the... Through the... The Federal courts in Dallas

on June 19. 2003. To do what? To overturn a ropey weight. It's not

going to happen, is it? As a former Supreme Court later, I'm entitled to

the right to change my mind and to go back to the courts, even if I

have to go to The Supreme Court, and ask them to Rick -- reconsider Roe

the Wade. You have the right but it's not going to happen, is it? Do

you have information I don't? You have the Attorney General, John

Ashcroft, who is the most staunch antiabortionists in the Cabinet. He

describes Roe the Wade is the settled law of the land. That's John

Ashcroft. I'm not him. I am a woman. You seriously think you have a

chance? I do. I talked to post- abortion women on a daily basis. 15,

16, 18 years after their abortions. They're still feeling guilty about

taking the life of their child. Do you really want to return to the

situation where somewhere between up to a million illegal abortions are

carried out in the United States every year? Tim, you know as well as

I do that is a lot of pro- abortion lobbyists hype. But it's true.

Before Roe the Wade, there were between 200,001.2 million illegal

abortions carried out in the United States. Thousands died from illegal

abortions. That is not hype. Thousands have died from legalised

abortion. But she would return these women to that kind of situation.

Women who have to go underground? Everyone should understand the

reason why we are doing this. We are trying to save women's lives and

children's lives. We are not doing this for any kind of personal

agenda. Do you think you're being used by the pro-life people? The

Republicans? You said you were used in turn by the others, the pro-

abortion rests. I have never met such a great group of people since I

have been in the pro-life movement, honestly. What does that mean? You

used to like the lawyers, didn't you? I did. But you turned against

them. They turned against me first. Your old lawyer says that the case

for her, and the date, in 1973, when abortion was legalised, still the

most exciting day of her life. She says it's given... Who is this?

Sarah Weddington. Of course it did. It's given women 30 years of knowing

what it's like to be autonomous and making decisions most vital to their

lives. And that is the way Sarah Weddington thinks but it is not the

way I think. I am not Sarah Weddington. I don't teach at

Texas... The Texas University and I don't have a Ph.D.. What about all

the violence against abortion clinics? The murders in the bombings

in the arson attacks. You are dating yourself. Come on. What about the

people who carry those out? It all happened in the 80s. What do you say

to people who carried this out? I don't know anybody in the pro-life

movement who does things like that. But you would condemn them if they

did? I do not agree with them, no, what it -- because it is bloodshed

touching bloodshed. You are not accomplishing anything by taking the

life of an abortionist. Or attacking or tantalising. Or attacking or

whatever it is these people are doing. So you hope the strength of

your arguments alone will convince people? I have the strength of God

's word is heard, not mine. Norma McCorvey, expected to have you on

the programme. Thank you so much, Tim. Thank you.

I think that's the main message today.

Stormy weather pushing across the UK from west to east.