Joshua Wong, secretary general of Demosisto Party, Hong Kong HARDtalk

Welcome to HARDtalk, I'm Stephen Sackur.

Later this month, a new chief executive will be voted into office

Elected not by the people, but by 1000 or so members of the

territory's economic and political elite, tied closely to the Beijing

government. And that is far short of the universal Suffrage demanded by

my guest today. Joshua Wong was a teenage student when he became a

leader of the so-called Umbrella pro-democracy protests that swept

Hong Kong in 2014. Has Beijing managed to neutralise

Hong Kong's youthful rebels? Thank you. So Hong Kong is about to

get a new chief executive. He will be selected, he will not be elected,

by the general population. And that is a sign of the failure of your

pro-democracy movement, isn't it? I don't think it is in favour of our

movement. Because our movement is just motivated by the undemocratic

system, which means, rather than allowing us more social selection,

as you mentioned, it would be great for Hong Kong people to deserve

democracy, with one person, one vote. Well, that is what you wanted.

And you brought tens of thousands of people onto the street in the late

summer, the autumn of 2014, you demanded with both the Hong Kong

authorities and by extension, frankly, with Beijing as well. And

of course, nothing happened. Regime did not give you a single

concession. Three years ago we created Hong Kong history, with

100,000 people occupying on the street, it resulted in the Umbrella

movement. However, it is a long-term battle for us to fight for

democracy, against the largest authoritarian regime in the world.

So from my point of view, it is a long-term battle. We can win in the

battle, what I believe finally we can win in this war -- can't win.

That he is, someone said as a battle in which you shot yourself the foot.

It was on offer at the time back in 2014 was at least the idea that,

after a first round of selection which would be handled by the small

coterie of elite people, then finally the two or three nominees

that came out of that committee would be put before the people. But

because you guys in the pro-democracy movement rejected

that, that is not going to happen. So there is no sense of a popular

involvement in this decision at all, and that is your fault. From the

definition of the Communist Party of China, they would say that the China

government will choose... Field candidates for you to elect

election. But I would say that, if there is a screening process to deny

or reject all of the pro-democracy politicians to be the candidates of

the elections, it is not a democratic election at all. So what

will your view be of the likely winner of this chief executive race?

Because we don't know yet, it looks as though Carrie Lam... Well, let's

call it selection. Carrie Lam, it looks as though she is the likely

winner of this process. She is deemed to be close to Beijing, she

has already had a senior position in the executive of Hong Kong. Would

you regard her as completely illegitimate, given the

circumstances? Carrie Lam being elected, it would be a nightmare at

all. And I would say that he would be the chief executive of Hong Kong

after the 26th of March is not dependent on the Hong Kong people or

Hong Kong elite. It depends on President Xi. So whether the

president of China will elect Carrie Lam, at this stage, no one knows.

What we can do is just clearly request and uphold what we believe

in, which means democracy, and continuing to fight in the future.

But just to be clear, you would regard the winner of that selection

process, and that hypothetically say it is likely to be Carrie Lam, you

regard her sitting there with no mandate, no legitimacy whatsoever.

It is lack of legitimacy from people, because we can't vote in an

election. So how come we can say that the executive, which means the

leader of Hong Kong, is representing Hong Kong citizens? So will you try

to get people out on the street again? Because the issue here is

what sort of amount you have, and indeed what sort of achievement is

the pro-democracy movement can ever hope to garner -- what sort of

momentum. Because we look at the record, and Frankie, as I say, you

don't appear to have achieved very much. Yes, I would say that the

chief executive election day will be a date when we come out with civil

disobedience and confrontation and protest again. But as you have

mentioned, according to the track record of experience in the Umbrella

movements, even Occupy on the street, it can result with a

positive gain. And at this stage, the Hong Kong people are still far

away from democracy. But what I have learnt in Umbrella movement is we

can't only rely on street activism, but also get into the institution.

That is why Nathan Law, one of the student leaders, has run in the

election last year had been elected to be the youngest MP in Hong Kong.

You are I think were sentenced by a Hong Kong court to was at 80 hours

of community service for your activities during the protest

movement of 2014? Yes, for participating in an unauthorised

assembly. So you are telling the civil disobedience is on the cards

for the day of the selection, March 26, the new chief executive. Perhaps

you might organise street demonstrations, perhaps you might

confront the police, I don't know. But how far are you prepared to push

this? I mean you are a young man, you are a student, you are 20 years

old. You want to go to prison? I expect to pay the price for

democracy. That is why before Umbrella movement, in 2014 until

now, I expected to one pushing forward the civil disobedience. One

day, I I may need to go into jail, but the fight for democracy, you

need to pay the price for it. You are in London, with Nathan Law, you

save. We have had him on the programme not too long ago. You two

other poster boys, if I can put it that way, for the youthful

pro-democracy so-called Umbrella protest movement. I am just

wondering, already faced threats. I have heard that you were threatened

when you tried to travel to Taiwan, you had a crowd of people who were

shouting curses at you. Somebody apparently tried to punch you in the

face at one point. Are you scared? Sometimes I am tired, or

downhearted, but I know what I've done, and what I commit is valuable.

According to a previous experience, being an activist in Hong Kong is

not easy. As you have mentioned, while we have visited Taiwan and

back to Hong Kong, the pro-China, Maoists and gangsters almost just

assault us in the airport, Nathan Law being the elected legislator has

even been sent to the hospital. I have been blacklisted by the men in

China government, and even last October I visited Bangkok and the

Thai government just locked me and sent me to the detention cell,

saying that, sorry, you are a troublemaker and we will not allow

you to enter Thailand. And after I took the flight back to Hong Kong,

after 12 hours detained, the government officials just say that

Thailand will blacklist Joshua Wong forever. You know why this is

happening, don't you? You are seen by Beijing as a threat not just

because you talk about democratic values, basic human freedoms, it is

because Beijing sees your political movement as ultimately threatening

separatism and independence, and that is something that is a red line

which the Beijing government will never accept. In fact, from the

point of view of Beijing, independence would have been a red

line for them. And for my political party and myself, we do not advocate

independence, and what we hope is to fight for general autonomy for Hong

Kong. Yes, you see, this is where I don't understand your position. You

say we're not talking about independence, we are just took it of

determination. What if you are talking about self-determination and

of course all options are on the table. You are leaving it to the

joys of the Hong Kong people as to how they want to be governed in the

future. One of those options has to be separation and independence or

are you saying that is definitely off the table? I think we can answer

this question in two aspects. The first one is the matter that civil

disobedience or just the moderates fighting for democracy just like the

former legislature, all of that are also being labelled as pro-

independence. So I would say that if Beijing put a label on everyone and

labelled them as pro- independence activists, it is meaningless.

According to your question, as well, self-determination means that we are

also part of the independence movement of Hong Kong. I would say

that absolutely not at all. Well, hang on. In April 2016 you said I am

not explicitly advocating independence for Hong Kong, art, you

went on, we think independents might be one of the options. So come on,

which is it? You either are or you are not prepared to countenance

independence? I would love to answer this question, and I am not the one

who advocate independence, but I would say that Hong Kong, being a

former colony of the British government, it will be usual for us

to get the right to determine the sovereignty and constitution of Hong

Kong in a decolonisation process of Hong Kong in the last century. Hang

on, you know that the Basic Law is there. The deal between the former

colonial power, Great Britain, and China, or quite clear. The Hong Kong

Special Administrative Region was, in terms of sovereignty, an

inalienable part of China. The most significant point is the joint

declaration will have and expiry date, according to the policy, the

joint declaration was signed in 1984, it will be in fermented since

1997 until 2047. However, what will be the situation of Hong Kong after

2047? With the expiry date of the joint declaration, no one knows. And

what we are afraid is, without referendum or without the

authorisation of Hong Kong people, it will just result in one country,

one system. You see no one knows what will happen after 2047, but I

think it is quite clear everyone knows that China and letting Hong

Kong go. I mean, that is just inconceivable. In fact, most Hong

Kongers themselves, most people who live in the territory, feel that as

well. And Reuters did an interesting survey last year in which only one

in six people in Hong Kong supported in any way, any sympathy for

independence. The clear majority were against the idea, because Hong

Kongers are realistic people, even if you're not. I would say that,

being an activist, and also being one who leads a political party and

organise the election campaign last year, I know the logic behind

straight activism and elections are a bit different. Straight activism

it is just necessary to get a critical minorities to support joint

action. Before an election you need a critical majority to vote for you.

But I would say that, according to the survey, as you mentioned, of

course, the majority of Hong Kong people disagree on Hong Kong

independence. But I will say that, no matter whether people agree or

disagree on Hong Kong independence, what we hope is, after 2047 for Hong

Kong, the political economy or cultural sector has the future

arrangement of Hong Kong, it will be decided by Hong Kong people, rather

than just an order from the Beijing government saying it is time to put

aside judicial independence, rule of aside judicial independence, rule of

law, and if you put aside without any pressure from Hong Kong, all

without any reaction from Hong Kong people, it will just be a nightmare

for us. Do you worry that you are being used as a puppet by countries

hostile to China? I am thinking in particular of the United States. Not

long ago you went to Washington. You were received very warmly by

senators, including Marco Rubio, former Republican presidential

candidate, who is certainly know not to be a great friend of Beijing. And

he saluted here, and he sponsored another piece of legislation that he

wanted to get through the US Congress, which the Chinese thought

was blatantly anti- Chinese. I just wonder, there is a danger you are

going to be seen as a tool in the pocket of the United States. I don't

think I will be used as a tool in the United States. Of course, for

the pro-China propaganda they will say that I am one of the CIA agents,

and that I am controlled or funded by the US government. Or even

claimed that I am trained by the US Marines, it is ridiculous. But

referring to your question, I would say that what we hope is to get the

international committee to support Hong Kong democracy movement. It is

not because only focusing on the moral reason. It is because the US

government or UK government is the ones who signed off, and the joint

declaration. So they gain the responsibility to monitor the

implementation of one country, two systems.

But they're not, Abe, looking at the allies you might want to have in the

discussion with how Hong Kong can determine its democratic rights, the

UK government isn't doing much, the US and government is now led by

Donald Trump, who clearly sees his relationship with China in terms of

trade and currency but he really doesn't seem to put it in terms of

human rights and democratic values. I still appreciate his phone call

with the president of Taiwan. Things are changing because Mr Trump says

his administration is committed to the one China policy. That's why

there's uncertainty for the Trump administration and that's why I

would have more expectation in legislation rather than the

administration. You say, I'll have some hope of getting support from

legislatures, but you're not getting support. In material terms, since

you launch your umbrella protest, and now you have your own new party

and a handful of representatives in the Legislative Council, tell me, in

material terms, what level of support you're getting from around

the world from governments and legislatures. We have to push

forward to help the democracy movement in Hong Kong and in the UK

we are questing and arranging a hearing in the parliament. In the

US, as you mentioned, there is a cross-party bill which is called the

Hong Kong human rights and democracy act and what we hope is it will be a

starting point for the umbrella movement generation and what we hope

is after the end of the Umbrella Movement, we want a positive result.

China is now very important economically and globally, one of

the two most powerful economies in the entire world, do you really

think you will rally international support for democracy in Hong Kong

when China is so clearly against it and China is now frankly seen around

the world as one of the most vital strategic partners. Supporting

democracy and Hong Kong does not... What I mean if Hong Kong has a lack

of rule of law and judicial independence, how can it ensure

economic freedom and also protect the business interests? What I would

like to say, especially for the British audience, if how China is

nor the international treaty, ignored a promise in a joint

declaration, how can the British government insured China will rely

on its miss on the future trade deal? Are you in anyway a China

Afobe, a sign of Vogue, there are certain statements that have come

out of the localised movement in Hong Kong which smacked of a

prejudice Chinese people and China. I would say I am ethnically Chinese

and I am against the China Communist Party regime but not against Chinese

people. What about your colleague, Nathan Law, who said, and I actually

put this quote to him some time ago, a lot of people think we don't know

China so we hate them but actually it's different. We know China and

that's why we hate them. I would say that we hope to know more about

China. Do you hate the Chinese? No, I don't hate the Chinese and I hope

to know more about Chinese culture and what's happened inside mainland

China, unfortunately after the end of Umbrella Movement I've been

blacklisted and I can't enter mainland China. I suppose what I'm

getting at is whether you're interested in aligning yourself with

some of the more populist elements in Hong Kong who are very angry

about certain things they see as problems coming from China. For

example, Chinese people coming across the border, spending a lot of

money, raising prices in Hong Kong shops. Some have been referred to as

locusts by elements inside Hong Kong. There's also concern about

jobs, Chinese people with qualifications coming and taking

jobs that used to go to Hong Kong people. Are you prepared to ally

yourself with these... You could call them nationalists beaming is in

Hong Kong. I wouldn't recognise myself as one of the local lists and

I'm not one who agrees on Hong Kong nationalism. Would you not

acknowledge that people in Hong Kong care more about the housing crisis,

the difficulty for young qualified Hong Kong people getting decent jobs

with good salaries. These are probably things that engage Hong

Kong people more than your theoretical discussion of universal

suffrage and changing the way in which the Chief Executive is

selected. I think your point is explaining the reason we run in the

election, during the Umbrella Movement a lot of residence in Hong

Kong said they support democracy and I have quite a good impression on

the democracy movement but it is possible for you to have emphasis on

more issues like the housing issues, social welfare, liberal rights, not

only emphasis on political reform. That's why since last year we found

a political party and ran in the election and what we have proved to

Hong Kong citizens, we hope to put our thoughts to fight for democracy

and urge for a political system reform. But also on the other hand

we are one who cares about peoples livelihoods, housing problems

transport problems, and in Hong Kong only 20% of high school students can

go to university. It's the lowest rate compared to any big country.

Let me ask you more about your personal situation, it strikes me as

very interesting, we know your place around the world because you

identified with the umbrella protests and many were struck by how

young you were but you started becoming an activist when you were

even younger. 14 years old. 14 years old. You were beginning to think it

was worth while it was good to activate with your student peers in

high school to make a political noise but it has cost you a lot.

Now, as you said, you are blacklisted by Beijing, it's going

to affect your future career prospects and life. How do you cope

with that? Of course it is hard for me to seek any job inside government

or work in the business sector, but I would say if the young generation

can't see the future of Hong Kong, how can I see my future? What do

your parents say? My parents strongly support me. They are the

ones who are not activists, not a guy in politics every day, but they

still give me enough flexibility compared to other parents in Hong

Kong mostly according to the Chinese culture, where they forced their

students to focus on examinations and enter the best university, the

professional and get upward mobility into the middle-class. There's

enormous pressure in Hong Kong to do well, strive and achieve. You bust

all of those stereotypes. It is lucky that my parents are more

open-minded. Let me ask you this, you're a young man and I don't in

anyway want to sound patronising, but with youth comes a certain

amount of idealism, and maybe sometimes a certain amount of

naivete. There are people who look at the reality of China's grip upon

Hong Kong, the massive dominance that China has when it comes to any

discussion of Hong Kong's political future, the economic reliance of

Hong Kong on China. Then they listen to you and think, there's a spirited

young man who is going to change his views as he gets older. There's no

way that China is ever going to relinquish its political and

economic control and grip on Hong Kong. Do you recognise that many

people feel that way? I knew especially through the umbrella

movement the number of people agree or disagree on the movement, it

would come down to the occupied zone and have discussions with me and I

know more about their ideas. I would say there's always discussion and

debate is about whether China relies more on Hong Kong or Hong Kong

relies more on China, especially with the capital... Even in 1997

when you first experienced sovereignty, Chinese rule, I think

Hong Kong was worth almost 15% of China's GDP, it's now down to

something like 3%. The leverage in the relationship is changing every

year and always going in the direction of Beijing. I would say

fight for democracy or protecting the rule of law and judicial

independence, in fact we are facing the largest authoritarian regime or

the second largest economic power in the world. If you asked whether we

would achieve the mocha see in the next two or three years, I would say

it is hard for us to achieve immediately in the short-term, but

that's why at the start of the interview I said it's a long-term

battle -- democracy. Some people said why is the young generation

focused on self-determination, why don't you focus on one country, two

systems. The fact is, one country, two systems, after the end of 50

years unchanged policy, in 2047 I am 51 years old and I hope that no

matter what will be the sovereignty of Hong Kong at this point, we still

ensure human rights, rule of law, judicial independence and we won't

let Hong Kong exist as Hong Kong and not just exist in name only. You are

not leaving this battlefield? Yeah, I will not leave it. Joshua Wong,

thank you for being on HARDtalk. Thank you very much indeed. Thank

you very much, appreciate it.