Joshua Wong, secretary general of Demosisto Party, Hong Kong HARDtalk


Joshua Wong, secretary general of Demosisto Party, Hong Kong

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Welcome to HARDtalk, I'm Stephen Sackur.

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Later this month, a new chief executive will be voted into office

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Elected not by the people, but by 1000 or so members of the

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territory's economic and political elite, tied closely to the Beijing

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government. And that is far short of the universal Suffrage demanded by

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my guest today. Joshua Wong was a teenage student when he became a

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leader of the so-called Umbrella pro-democracy protests that swept

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Hong Kong in 2014. Has Beijing managed to neutralise

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Hong Kong's youthful rebels? Thank you. So Hong Kong is about to

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get a new chief executive. He will be selected, he will not be elected,

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by the general population. And that is a sign of the failure of your

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pro-democracy movement, isn't it? I don't think it is in favour of our

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movement. Because our movement is just motivated by the undemocratic

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system, which means, rather than allowing us more social selection,

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as you mentioned, it would be great for Hong Kong people to deserve

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democracy, with one person, one vote. Well, that is what you wanted.

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And you brought tens of thousands of people onto the street in the late

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summer, the autumn of 2014, you demanded with both the Hong Kong

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authorities and by extension, frankly, with Beijing as well. And

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of course, nothing happened. Regime did not give you a single

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concession. Three years ago we created Hong Kong history, with

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100,000 people occupying on the street, it resulted in the Umbrella

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movement. However, it is a long-term battle for us to fight for

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democracy, against the largest authoritarian regime in the world.

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So from my point of view, it is a long-term battle. We can win in the

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battle, what I believe finally we can win in this war -- can't win.

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That he is, someone said as a battle in which you shot yourself the foot.

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It was on offer at the time back in 2014 was at least the idea that,

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after a first round of selection which would be handled by the small

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coterie of elite people, then finally the two or three nominees

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that came out of that committee would be put before the people. But

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because you guys in the pro-democracy movement rejected

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that, that is not going to happen. So there is no sense of a popular

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involvement in this decision at all, and that is your fault. From the

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definition of the Communist Party of China, they would say that the China

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government will choose... Field candidates for you to elect

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election. But I would say that, if there is a screening process to deny

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or reject all of the pro-democracy politicians to be the candidates of

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the elections, it is not a democratic election at all. So what

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will your view be of the likely winner of this chief executive race?

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Because we don't know yet, it looks as though Carrie Lam... Well, let's

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call it selection. Carrie Lam, it looks as though she is the likely

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winner of this process. She is deemed to be close to Beijing, she

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has already had a senior position in the executive of Hong Kong. Would

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you regard her as completely illegitimate, given the

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circumstances? Carrie Lam being elected, it would be a nightmare at

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all. And I would say that he would be the chief executive of Hong Kong

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after the 26th of March is not dependent on the Hong Kong people or

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Hong Kong elite. It depends on President Xi. So whether the

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president of China will elect Carrie Lam, at this stage, no one knows.

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What we can do is just clearly request and uphold what we believe

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in, which means democracy, and continuing to fight in the future.

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But just to be clear, you would regard the winner of that selection

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process, and that hypothetically say it is likely to be Carrie Lam, you

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regard her sitting there with no mandate, no legitimacy whatsoever.

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It is lack of legitimacy from people, because we can't vote in an

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election. So how come we can say that the executive, which means the

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leader of Hong Kong, is representing Hong Kong citizens? So will you try

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to get people out on the street again? Because the issue here is

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what sort of amount you have, and indeed what sort of achievement is

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the pro-democracy movement can ever hope to garner -- what sort of

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momentum. Because we look at the record, and Frankie, as I say, you

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don't appear to have achieved very much. Yes, I would say that the

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chief executive election day will be a date when we come out with civil

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disobedience and confrontation and protest again. But as you have

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mentioned, according to the track record of experience in the Umbrella

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movements, even Occupy on the street, it can result with a

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positive gain. And at this stage, the Hong Kong people are still far

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away from democracy. But what I have learnt in Umbrella movement is we

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can't only rely on street activism, but also get into the institution.

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That is why Nathan Law, one of the student leaders, has run in the

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election last year had been elected to be the youngest MP in Hong Kong.

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You are I think were sentenced by a Hong Kong court to was at 80 hours

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of community service for your activities during the protest

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movement of 2014? Yes, for participating in an unauthorised

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assembly. So you are telling the civil disobedience is on the cards

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for the day of the selection, March 26, the new chief executive. Perhaps

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you might organise street demonstrations, perhaps you might

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confront the police, I don't know. But how far are you prepared to push

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this? I mean you are a young man, you are a student, you are 20 years

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old. You want to go to prison? I expect to pay the price for

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democracy. That is why before Umbrella movement, in 2014 until

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now, I expected to one pushing forward the civil disobedience. One

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day, I I may need to go into jail, but the fight for democracy, you

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need to pay the price for it. You are in London, with Nathan Law, you

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save. We have had him on the programme not too long ago. You two

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other poster boys, if I can put it that way, for the youthful

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pro-democracy so-called Umbrella protest movement. I am just

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wondering, already faced threats. I have heard that you were threatened

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when you tried to travel to Taiwan, you had a crowd of people who were

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shouting curses at you. Somebody apparently tried to punch you in the

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face at one point. Are you scared? Sometimes I am tired, or

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downhearted, but I know what I've done, and what I commit is valuable.

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According to a previous experience, being an activist in Hong Kong is

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not easy. As you have mentioned, while we have visited Taiwan and

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back to Hong Kong, the pro-China, Maoists and gangsters almost just

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assault us in the airport, Nathan Law being the elected legislator has

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even been sent to the hospital. I have been blacklisted by the men in

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China government, and even last October I visited Bangkok and the

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Thai government just locked me and sent me to the detention cell,

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saying that, sorry, you are a troublemaker and we will not allow

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you to enter Thailand. And after I took the flight back to Hong Kong,

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after 12 hours detained, the government officials just say that

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Thailand will blacklist Joshua Wong forever. You know why this is

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happening, don't you? You are seen by Beijing as a threat not just

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because you talk about democratic values, basic human freedoms, it is

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because Beijing sees your political movement as ultimately threatening

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separatism and independence, and that is something that is a red line

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which the Beijing government will never accept. In fact, from the

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point of view of Beijing, independence would have been a red

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line for them. And for my political party and myself, we do not advocate

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independence, and what we hope is to fight for general autonomy for Hong

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Kong. Yes, you see, this is where I don't understand your position. You

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say we're not talking about independence, we are just took it of

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determination. What if you are talking about self-determination and

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of course all options are on the table. You are leaving it to the

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joys of the Hong Kong people as to how they want to be governed in the

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future. One of those options has to be separation and independence or

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are you saying that is definitely off the table? I think we can answer

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this question in two aspects. The first one is the matter that civil

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disobedience or just the moderates fighting for democracy just like the

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former legislature, all of that are also being labelled as pro-

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independence. So I would say that if Beijing put a label on everyone and

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labelled them as pro- independence activists, it is meaningless.

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According to your question, as well, self-determination means that we are

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also part of the independence movement of Hong Kong. I would say

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that absolutely not at all. Well, hang on. In April 2016 you said I am

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not explicitly advocating independence for Hong Kong, art, you

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went on, we think independents might be one of the options. So come on,

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which is it? You either are or you are not prepared to countenance

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independence? I would love to answer this question, and I am not the one

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who advocate independence, but I would say that Hong Kong, being a

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former colony of the British government, it will be usual for us

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to get the right to determine the sovereignty and constitution of Hong

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Kong in a decolonisation process of Hong Kong in the last century. Hang

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on, you know that the Basic Law is there. The deal between the former

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colonial power, Great Britain, and China, or quite clear. The Hong Kong

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Special Administrative Region was, in terms of sovereignty, an

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inalienable part of China. The most significant point is the joint

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declaration will have and expiry date, according to the policy, the

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joint declaration was signed in 1984, it will be in fermented since

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1997 until 2047. However, what will be the situation of Hong Kong after

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2047? With the expiry date of the joint declaration, no one knows. And

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what we are afraid is, without referendum or without the

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authorisation of Hong Kong people, it will just result in one country,

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one system. You see no one knows what will happen after 2047, but I

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think it is quite clear everyone knows that China and letting Hong

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Kong go. I mean, that is just inconceivable. In fact, most Hong

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Kongers themselves, most people who live in the territory, feel that as

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well. And Reuters did an interesting survey last year in which only one

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in six people in Hong Kong supported in any way, any sympathy for

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independence. The clear majority were against the idea, because Hong

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Kongers are realistic people, even if you're not. I would say that,

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being an activist, and also being one who leads a political party and

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organise the election campaign last year, I know the logic behind

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straight activism and elections are a bit different. Straight activism

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it is just necessary to get a critical minorities to support joint

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action. Before an election you need a critical majority to vote for you.

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But I would say that, according to the survey, as you mentioned, of

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course, the majority of Hong Kong people disagree on Hong Kong

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independence. But I will say that, no matter whether people agree or

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disagree on Hong Kong independence, what we hope is, after 2047 for Hong

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Kong, the political economy or cultural sector has the future

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arrangement of Hong Kong, it will be decided by Hong Kong people, rather

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than just an order from the Beijing government saying it is time to put

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aside judicial independence, rule of aside judicial independence, rule of

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law, and if you put aside without any pressure from Hong Kong, all

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without any reaction from Hong Kong people, it will just be a nightmare

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for us. Do you worry that you are being used as a puppet by countries

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hostile to China? I am thinking in particular of the United States. Not

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long ago you went to Washington. You were received very warmly by

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senators, including Marco Rubio, former Republican presidential

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candidate, who is certainly know not to be a great friend of Beijing. And

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he saluted here, and he sponsored another piece of legislation that he

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wanted to get through the US Congress, which the Chinese thought

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was blatantly anti- Chinese. I just wonder, there is a danger you are

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going to be seen as a tool in the pocket of the United States. I don't

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think I will be used as a tool in the United States. Of course, for

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the pro-China propaganda they will say that I am one of the CIA agents,

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and that I am controlled or funded by the US government. Or even

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claimed that I am trained by the US Marines, it is ridiculous. But

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referring to your question, I would say that what we hope is to get the

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international committee to support Hong Kong democracy movement. It is

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not because only focusing on the moral reason. It is because the US

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government or UK government is the ones who signed off, and the joint

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declaration. So they gain the responsibility to monitor the

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implementation of one country, two systems.

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But they're not, Abe, looking at the allies you might want to have in the

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discussion with how Hong Kong can determine its democratic rights, the

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UK government isn't doing much, the US and government is now led by

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Donald Trump, who clearly sees his relationship with China in terms of

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trade and currency but he really doesn't seem to put it in terms of

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human rights and democratic values. I still appreciate his phone call

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with the president of Taiwan. Things are changing because Mr Trump says

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his administration is committed to the one China policy. That's why

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there's uncertainty for the Trump administration and that's why I

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would have more expectation in legislation rather than the

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administration. You say, I'll have some hope of getting support from

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legislatures, but you're not getting support. In material terms, since

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you launch your umbrella protest, and now you have your own new party

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and a handful of representatives in the Legislative Council, tell me, in

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material terms, what level of support you're getting from around

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the world from governments and legislatures. We have to push

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forward to help the democracy movement in Hong Kong and in the UK

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we are questing and arranging a hearing in the parliament. In the

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US, as you mentioned, there is a cross-party bill which is called the

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Hong Kong human rights and democracy act and what we hope is it will be a

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starting point for the umbrella movement generation and what we hope

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is after the end of the Umbrella Movement, we want a positive result.

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China is now very important economically and globally, one of

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the two most powerful economies in the entire world, do you really

:16:19.:16:21.

think you will rally international support for democracy in Hong Kong

:16:22.:16:26.

when China is so clearly against it and China is now frankly seen around

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the world as one of the most vital strategic partners. Supporting

:16:31.:16:36.

democracy and Hong Kong does not... What I mean if Hong Kong has a lack

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of rule of law and judicial independence, how can it ensure

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economic freedom and also protect the business interests? What I would

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like to say, especially for the British audience, if how China is

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nor the international treaty, ignored a promise in a joint

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declaration, how can the British government insured China will rely

:16:58.:17:00.

on its miss on the future trade deal? Are you in anyway a China

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Afobe, a sign of Vogue, there are certain statements that have come

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out of the localised movement in Hong Kong which smacked of a

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prejudice Chinese people and China. I would say I am ethnically Chinese

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and I am against the China Communist Party regime but not against Chinese

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people. What about your colleague, Nathan Law, who said, and I actually

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put this quote to him some time ago, a lot of people think we don't know

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China so we hate them but actually it's different. We know China and

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that's why we hate them. I would say that we hope to know more about

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China. Do you hate the Chinese? No, I don't hate the Chinese and I hope

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to know more about Chinese culture and what's happened inside mainland

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China, unfortunately after the end of Umbrella Movement I've been

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blacklisted and I can't enter mainland China. I suppose what I'm

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getting at is whether you're interested in aligning yourself with

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some of the more populist elements in Hong Kong who are very angry

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about certain things they see as problems coming from China. For

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example, Chinese people coming across the border, spending a lot of

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money, raising prices in Hong Kong shops. Some have been referred to as

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locusts by elements inside Hong Kong. There's also concern about

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jobs, Chinese people with qualifications coming and taking

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jobs that used to go to Hong Kong people. Are you prepared to ally

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yourself with these... You could call them nationalists beaming is in

:18:42.:18:44.

Hong Kong. I wouldn't recognise myself as one of the local lists and

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I'm not one who agrees on Hong Kong nationalism. Would you not

:18:50.:18:53.

acknowledge that people in Hong Kong care more about the housing crisis,

:18:54.:18:57.

the difficulty for young qualified Hong Kong people getting decent jobs

:18:58.:19:01.

with good salaries. These are probably things that engage Hong

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Kong people more than your theoretical discussion of universal

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suffrage and changing the way in which the Chief Executive is

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selected. I think your point is explaining the reason we run in the

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election, during the Umbrella Movement a lot of residence in Hong

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Kong said they support democracy and I have quite a good impression on

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the democracy movement but it is possible for you to have emphasis on

:19:26.:19:31.

more issues like the housing issues, social welfare, liberal rights, not

:19:32.:19:35.

only emphasis on political reform. That's why since last year we found

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a political party and ran in the election and what we have proved to

:19:39.:19:44.

Hong Kong citizens, we hope to put our thoughts to fight for democracy

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and urge for a political system reform. But also on the other hand

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we are one who cares about peoples livelihoods, housing problems

:19:56.:19:59.

transport problems, and in Hong Kong only 20% of high school students can

:20:00.:20:05.

go to university. It's the lowest rate compared to any big country.

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Let me ask you more about your personal situation, it strikes me as

:20:11.:20:13.

very interesting, we know your place around the world because you

:20:14.:20:16.

identified with the umbrella protests and many were struck by how

:20:17.:20:19.

young you were but you started becoming an activist when you were

:20:20.:20:24.

even younger. 14 years old. 14 years old. You were beginning to think it

:20:25.:20:30.

was worth while it was good to activate with your student peers in

:20:31.:20:33.

high school to make a political noise but it has cost you a lot.

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Now, as you said, you are blacklisted by Beijing, it's going

:20:38.:20:41.

to affect your future career prospects and life. How do you cope

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with that? Of course it is hard for me to seek any job inside government

:20:46.:20:49.

or work in the business sector, but I would say if the young generation

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can't see the future of Hong Kong, how can I see my future? What do

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your parents say? My parents strongly support me. They are the

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ones who are not activists, not a guy in politics every day, but they

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still give me enough flexibility compared to other parents in Hong

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Kong mostly according to the Chinese culture, where they forced their

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students to focus on examinations and enter the best university, the

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professional and get upward mobility into the middle-class. There's

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enormous pressure in Hong Kong to do well, strive and achieve. You bust

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all of those stereotypes. It is lucky that my parents are more

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open-minded. Let me ask you this, you're a young man and I don't in

:21:43.:21:46.

anyway want to sound patronising, but with youth comes a certain

:21:47.:21:50.

amount of idealism, and maybe sometimes a certain amount of

:21:51.:21:53.

naivete. There are people who look at the reality of China's grip upon

:21:54.:21:58.

Hong Kong, the massive dominance that China has when it comes to any

:21:59.:22:03.

discussion of Hong Kong's political future, the economic reliance of

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Hong Kong on China. Then they listen to you and think, there's a spirited

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young man who is going to change his views as he gets older. There's no

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way that China is ever going to relinquish its political and

:22:17.:22:19.

economic control and grip on Hong Kong. Do you recognise that many

:22:20.:22:24.

people feel that way? I knew especially through the umbrella

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movement the number of people agree or disagree on the movement, it

:22:28.:22:31.

would come down to the occupied zone and have discussions with me and I

:22:32.:22:36.

know more about their ideas. I would say there's always discussion and

:22:37.:22:40.

debate is about whether China relies more on Hong Kong or Hong Kong

:22:41.:22:44.

relies more on China, especially with the capital... Even in 1997

:22:45.:22:49.

when you first experienced sovereignty, Chinese rule, I think

:22:50.:22:56.

Hong Kong was worth almost 15% of China's GDP, it's now down to

:22:57.:23:00.

something like 3%. The leverage in the relationship is changing every

:23:01.:23:04.

year and always going in the direction of Beijing. I would say

:23:05.:23:07.

fight for democracy or protecting the rule of law and judicial

:23:08.:23:11.

independence, in fact we are facing the largest authoritarian regime or

:23:12.:23:16.

the second largest economic power in the world. If you asked whether we

:23:17.:23:26.

would achieve the mocha see in the next two or three years, I would say

:23:27.:23:30.

it is hard for us to achieve immediately in the short-term, but

:23:31.:23:33.

that's why at the start of the interview I said it's a long-term

:23:34.:23:38.

battle -- democracy. Some people said why is the young generation

:23:39.:23:42.

focused on self-determination, why don't you focus on one country, two

:23:43.:23:48.

systems. The fact is, one country, two systems, after the end of 50

:23:49.:23:54.

years unchanged policy, in 2047 I am 51 years old and I hope that no

:23:55.:23:58.

matter what will be the sovereignty of Hong Kong at this point, we still

:23:59.:24:04.

ensure human rights, rule of law, judicial independence and we won't

:24:05.:24:08.

let Hong Kong exist as Hong Kong and not just exist in name only. You are

:24:09.:24:14.

not leaving this battlefield? Yeah, I will not leave it. Joshua Wong,

:24:15.:24:18.

thank you for being on HARDtalk. Thank you very much indeed. Thank

:24:19.:24:22.

you very much, appreciate it.

:24:23.:24:23.

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