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Ben Ferencz, Former Nuremberg Prosecutor

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Welcome to HARDtalk with me, Zeinab Badawi, here in Florida, where my

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guest is 98-year-old Ben Ferencz. He is the last surviving prosecutor at

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the Nuremberg Nazi trials. He also helped liberate the death camps of

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Europe while serving in the U.S. Army. So does he believe that the

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Nuremberg trials have made genocide and other crimes against humanity

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less likely to be committed in the world today?

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Ben Ferencz, welcome to HARDtalk. You were born in 1920 in

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Transylvania in Central Europe. You moved to the United States with your

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family when you were a little baby. You really epitomise the American

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dream, a kind of rags to riches story, because it was discovered

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that you were highly intelligent and you were put on a fast track to

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Harvard Law School. We arrived in America, my parents were young

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immigrants fleeing persecution and poverty. No money, no skills, no

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language. And lucky to have some friendly New Yorker offer us, my

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father, who had been trained as a shoemaker, but they didn't need any

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boots made in New York, there were no cobblers. But the owner of a

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building offered us the opportunity to sleep in the cellar and my father

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would be the janitor. That's where we began, and that's where my memory

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begins, in a high crime density area known for good reason as Hells

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kitchen. There was a lot of crying, is that what excited your interest

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in law and pursuing a career in law? It excited my interest in not being

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on the criminal side, put it that way, there was crying all around. I

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had made up my mind early that I didn't want to be a cowboy and I

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didn't want to be a fireman and I didn't want to be a crook either, so

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that pretty much left me to go to law and eyes focused on it ever

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since. After you graduated from Harvard Law School in 1943, you join

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the US military and joined a battalion preparing for the invasion

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of France. What are your key recollections of that time? I

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enlisted whenever I could get into the army, I was a private, the

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lowest rank you could get, assigned to be in the artillery battalion.

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And in that capacity we landed on the beaches of Normandy. France was

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occupied by the Germans. The only way to move the war forward and to

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get rid of the war was to defeat the Germans. I sailed from lands end at

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the tip of England across to Omaha beach, which was still... Had been

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cleared by the time I got there a bit. But there were many soldiers in

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American uniform still lying in the sea face down. There were many

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armoured vehicles still in the water and we had to push on from there

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into France and defeat them. There was heavy artillery all the way.

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Many battles all the way. And it was only when we got into the German

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occupied, and Germany itself, that we began to encounter a possible war

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crimes. As Nazi atrocities were uncovered you were transferred to a

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newly created war crimes branch of the Army to gather evidence of Nazi

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brutality and apprehend the war criminals. You entered the death

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camps, like two Kleinveldt, and you described how you sourcing from

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hell. Described to us what you saw. -- Buchenwald. I can describe it

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vividly because the recollection is clear in my mind but at the same

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time you can't understand what it is like because the rational human mind

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can't quite grasp it. Coming into Buchenwald for example, dead bodies

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lying all on the ground, you can't tell if they're dead or alive.

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Skeletons dressed in just rags which had at one time been part of their

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work uniform with a triangle indicating they were dues,

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homosexuals, communists or whatever. -- dues. Everyone is running in

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different directions. The SS is running out. A scene like the pile

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of rubbish the size of this room and in it inmates grovelling like rats

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for a bite of food and picking out garbage and sticking it into their

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mouths. The smell of foul flesh burning. Crematoria, stacks of human

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bodies looking like bones stacked one on top of the other while they

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are shovelled into a crematorium and turned into ash and the fact is used

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for making soap and their ashes are used as fertiliser. The SS is

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running out, occasionally getting caught and beaten to death by the

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inmates, they were still not able to do anything about it. I wrote

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somewhere that I had peered into hell. I think hell would be paradise

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compared to what I saw. Are the memories of what you saw still very

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vivid for you? Yes, I don't like to talk about them much because I have

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difficulty controlling my own emotions. In 1945 you left the U.S.

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Army, returned to New York and prepared to practise law but shortly

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after that you were recruited for the New York Nuremberg trials, the

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international prosecution against the likes of Hermann Goering and

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other leading Nazis were already in progress. What was your reaction

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when you were asked to be part of that process? When the war was over,

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I came back along with 10 million other soldiers looking for a job. I

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graduated from the Harvard Law School and I passed the bar but I

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had no clients of any kind. I was pleased to get a telegram from the

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Pentagon invitingly to come to the Pentagon and they wanted to talk to

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me. I arrived and they said dear, Sir, they had never called me serve

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before, they wanted me to go back to Germany to help with warcrimes

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trials. I had done that during the war days. The last several months in

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the war as we occupied portions of Germany and France that had been

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occupied, we ran into examples of crimes of all kinds, the most

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obvious ones, what we called the allied flyer cases, very little is

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known about that. Fliers were being shot down in German held territory

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and they were almost invariably the can to death by the German mob. It

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was probably our first war crimes cases -- part of. I had that kind of

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experience with me as when I left the army. I took that back to

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Germany when I agreed without hesitation to go back to Germany and

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help with trials which would follow the international military tribunal.

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Why did you hesitate? It's a horrible experience for anyone.

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Germany was associated in my mind with atrocity and terrible crimes, I

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didn't want to go back to Germany. This is horror glorified. Nothing

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heroic about it at all. It shows how human beings can be debased in times

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of war. So you did go back to Germany and you've scoured Nazi

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officers and archives and trying to find evidence of the Nazi atrocities

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-- you scoured Nazi offices. It was quite all pervasive, wasn't it? The

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people that were involved in the atrocities. The United States in

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particular felt The International Monetary Fund criminal trial against

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Hermann Goring was a camera shot of a small sampling and to really

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understand how a civilised country like Germany could commit and

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tolerate the kind of atrocities that were committed, you should

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understand the position that doctors who perform medical experiments, the

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lawyers and judges that perverted the law, the SS officers that did

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the killings, the industrialists that were working people to death,

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all of these were specific groups. So the United States said let us

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take a sampling from the drop these groups to help us understand it. So

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I went to Berlin with about 50 people, scoured all of the archives,

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hours of Nazi archives, to gather the evidence to cover the broad

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spectrum of German society which basically was responsible for the

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crimes. In previous interviews you described how ingathering witness

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testimonies you did resort to duress, for instance lining up

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villagers and threatening to shoot them if they lied. I'm in, such

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methods now would amount to witness harassment of the most extreme order

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-- I mean. Perhaps it would. But it's only because the people that

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make the allegations don't understand what war is about. If I

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bring a room of 20 people and this is a natural case, and line them up,

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and say I want you to all right out exactly what happened, what your

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role was, what others did, anybody who lies will be shot. How can you

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do a thing like that, you're threatening them with torture! What

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am I going to tell them? Anybody who lies will get a paddy cake tonight?

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What do you want me to tell them, be honest, please confess you're a

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murderer, please, I don't want to threaten new, what are you talking

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about? There's a war going on, they work killing people. -- pretty new.

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What am I going to do? I didn't shoot them but I threaten them, that

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was the only weapon I had in -- and if that makes me a torturer then

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call me a torturer -- threaten new. You became the chief officer at --

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threaten you. There was a case described by the associated press

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news agency as the biggest murder trial in history. 22 Nazi war

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criminals who were part of these death squads, shooting more than 1

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million people, most of them civilians. It was quite a

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responsibility for a young man, you were only 27, to take. And in fact,

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just before you talk to me about that, I just want to show you, this

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is you at the Nuremberg Trials. The leading judge, these are the

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defendants. 22 defendants. Each one charged with mass murder. All of

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them pleaded not guilty. No one ever showed any sign of Rob Moore is

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whatsoever. I remember very well what I said. -- no sign of remorse.

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It is with sorrow and with hope that we here disclose the murder of over

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1 million innocent and defenceless men, women and children.

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Vengeance is not our goal. Nor do we seek merely just retribution. We ask

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this taught to affirm by international penal action man's

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right to live in peace and dignity, regardless of his race or creed. The

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case we present is a plea of humanity to law, that these men who

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wrote the darkest page in human history, people were murdered

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because they didn't share the race and colour and the ideology of their

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executioners. I thought it was horrible then, I think it is

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horrible now. And I appealed for the rule of law, which would in future

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protect people from that type of atrocity. When you look at that

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picture of view, though, I mean, 27 years of age, chief prosecutor in

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the Nuremberg process. That was an accident, that I was the chief

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prosecutor. One of my research is, I had about 50 of them in Berlin, came

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across the daily reports from the front of the special extermination

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squads whose job it was to kill without pity or remorse, every

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single Jewish man, woman and child they could lay their hands on,

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including the same for Gypsies and any other perceived or suspected

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opponent of the Reich. No such process had been planned. I flew

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down to your boat to talk to the general who was the judge, and he

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said we can't put on this trail now, because of all the lawyers are

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already assigned, the trials in profits, the Pentagon has an

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approved it, I doubt doubt if they will approve it, and I haven't may

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hand evidence of mass murder on a scale never before seen in human

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history. You can't let these guys go. He said can you do it in

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addition to your other work? I said Shaw, and I did, and I rested my

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case in two days. You said you wanted to prosecute the offices. You

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won't as interested in the foot soldiers, you wanted to get the

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educated officers among them. It is very hard for the public today to

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understand. The special extermination squad, Einsatzgruppen,

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the German word means action groups. They were 3000 man. I selected at

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least 3000. All of whom were complicit in mass murder. I selected

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those based on several factors. First of all, we had to have them in

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captivity. If you have got the evidence and you haven't got the

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prisoner, you have got nothing. I want a list of everybody who was a

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Einsatzgruppen member from all of our intelligence services, sent down

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immediately to neuron boat. I went over the list, I picked those of the

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highest rank and then checked out their background, from the Nazi

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party records which we captured in Berlin. Those who had Doctor

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degrees, and had... Or generals, they got priorities. I picked out 21

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or 28, it was we only had 22 seats in the dock. Is that absurd? Of

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course it is absurd. There were only 22 seats in the dock for the Hermann

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Goering trial, so we have a selection. Of the 22 who you tried

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in a Einsatzgruppen case, about a dozen were given death sentences.

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Four were actually executed, the others remained in prison, but only

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for a few years, until an agreement, a deal, was made between the

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American and German governments, and they were released. So it wasn't...

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It wasn't that formalistic. The political atmosphere had changed.

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General George Patton, who was my commander, made a speech in London

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to a group before the war was over in which he said we have fought the

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wrong enemy. We should not have been fighting the Germans, we should have

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been fighting the Russians. While the war was on, American general!

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Americans were still being killed in battle and the Russians were being

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slaughtered. Indicated the change of political scene in the United

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States. A Conservative group was saying what we are getting involved

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in this? This action against the Germans, we need the Germans. The

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British were particular keen about not executing some of the German

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generals that the British Army wanted. So the political pressure

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was such, together with some feeling of Amnesty, for humanitarian

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considerations. They stopped the trials, they released the people who

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were there, and then began to rehire people like Werner von Brown, who

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knew about rockets, and some of his deputies came to the United States,

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as they had the new rocket science. So when the trial that you presided

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over at Nuremberg was hailed as a success, as some did at the time, it

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can't really be described as that some of those who were found guilty

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were subsequently released. I was of course disappointed, but I never

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anticipated or tried to do justice in the broad sense of holding every

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criminal accountable. It would have been a practical impossibility. So I

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was careful in the selection of having the men in custody, having

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high rank, having good education, having absolute proof beyond any

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doubt of his guilt. I had his report, top-secret, to his

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commanders, saying how many people executed. They were not quite

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accurate. They exaggerated the body count. So more, how many more they

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killed? Then they said it was against our will, superior orders.

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Loonie. Was a? They were ordered to kill all the Jews, but they wanted

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to brag. They said how many they killed. You said the lessons, if we

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do not devote ourselves to developing effective world more, the

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same inhumanity which made the Holocaust possible might one day

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destroy the entire human race. So today, so many years later, here you

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are in your 90th year, and you look around you at the world, the

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conflicts that have happened in recent times, what is your

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assessment? Have we made progress? We have made progress. We have not

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learned the lesson of Nuremberg. We have made progress. I will come back

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to it. But first let me emphasise the fact, I learnt that war makes

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murderers. Mass murderers, part of otherwise decent people. And it

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applies to all wars and all nationalities, and I have seen it.

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And all the wars, these are not wild animals or out for blood, these are

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patriots who are trying to do their duty to protect either their

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religion or their nationality or the economic security. These are the

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three major causes. We have not learned that you can't kill an

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ideology with a gun. We still go at it with the same stupid approach, of

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spending all of your assets on building weapons and more weapons to

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kill more people, and depriving people of the things they need to

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eliminate the fear is which they have in their life. The man who is

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desperate, who has no job, who has no money, if the money spent on

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weapons could be spent on eliminating the cause of his

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discontent, it is not going to risk his life and go out and kill people

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the way they do today. So you were very instrumental in the setting up

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of the International Criminal Court, which was established by the Rome

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Statute in 1998. Do you think that has really help -- helped prevent

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crimes against humanity, war crimes, do you think it has stopped his

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crimes being committed with impunity? It has helped, but not

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enough. Certainly the existence of laws prohibiting certain behaviour

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has some deterrent effect, what we have to bear in mind that, for

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centuries, we have glorified warmaking. Ever since David hit

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Goliath in the head with a rock, we have glorified the praise and

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watching, no politician appears without flags flying on both sides,

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and the ban is going and marching. And I was a soldier, and I know, and

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they gave me all the battle stars and they gave me all the decoration

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of war and all that stuff. We have to reverse those dozens of years,

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because the world has changed. We are not throwing rocks any more. We

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are going to kill everybody from cyberspace. We can cut off the

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electrical grid of any city on the planet. Are you all crazy? You are

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standing there watching it happen, the students don't have money to pay

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tuition, the refugees have no homes to go to, the old people are dying

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because they can't afford medical care, and you are pouring billions

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of dollars every day in the killing machines. What, in your long life

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and career, have you learned about the nature of evil and human beings'

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capacity to commit the most unspeakable, horrific acts against

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their fellow human beings? Well, I have learnt simply, it is very

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obvious, that people in very high places, people of good education and

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high rank are quite competent at becoming mass murderers against any

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group that they think threatens either their nationality or their

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religion or their economic circumstances. I have seen that.

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These are not crimes committed by devils with horns. These are

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committed by educated, well intentioned, patriotic people. But

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we have to change the hearts and minds of people, so that they

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recognise that it is not cowardice to be willing to compromise, and to

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be conciliatory and be compassionate when you are dealing with people who

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have other points of view. And I know that it takes courage not to be

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discouraged. But we have got to have that kind of courage, because it is

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a tough job, and it will take a long time, and we have to begin in the

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cradle. So this re-education of the human spirit and the human mind, on

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a worldwide basis, is the task before us. And we are doing it. Look

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at the among the patient, without the Borrett doormat limitations, --

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look at the Emancipation, without limitations, of the black man. Look

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at marriage, a man can marry a man, a man can become a woman. Our

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realities today, 25 years ago they said you are out of your mind. And I

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say don't give up. Law is always better than war, and that is my firm

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decision, no matter if you get a bad decision. Law is always better than

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war. Murder is terrible, and there are three ways of preventing it.

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One, never give up, two, never give up, three... And then I hear the

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echo from the audience... Never give up. Ben Ferencz, thank you very much

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for coming on HARDtalk. It has been a pleasure. I hope you all... Don't

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enjoy it, but think about it. Thank you.

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