23/04/2017 HARDtalk

Now on BBC News its time for HardTalk.

Welcome to HARDtalk.

I'm Stephen Sackur.

In just a few days from now, Pope Francis will fly to Egypt

to offer his personal support to Egypt's Coptic Christians.

He'll find a community filled with apprehension,

targeted by jihadist extremists, and subject to persistent

discrimination and sectarian violence.

Elsewhere in the Middle East, in Syria and Iraq, the plight

of Christians is even worse.

My guest today is the General Bishop of the Coptic Church in the UK,

Bishop Angaelos.

Do Christians have any future at all in the Middle East?

Bishop Angaelos, welcome to HARDtalk.

Thank you.

Do you think there is something substantively different

about the nature of the threat faced by Coptic Christians in Egypt today?

Because they have faced threats for many, many years...

Yes.

We have faced threats for centuries, and particularly over the past

decades, but to have suicide bombers in churches is -

is a shift, and it looks like the mirroring of attacks

in other parts of the world.

And think that is why it has shocked the Egyptian community generally,

so much, Christians and Muslims.

We haven't seen this level of aggression and violence.

We've had attacks, which have been equally painful,

but this does mark a very new chapter.

And does that mean, I mean, since we saw the suicide bomb

attacks on two churches, a cathedral in Alexandra,

and the Church in Tanta, does that mean that Christian

communities have to think more carefully than they have

before about self-protection?

Well, of course.

We saw heightened security around churches in the lead up

to Easter celebrations.

The community is resilient.

It's strong.

It's very - it's faithful in it's worship, it's forgiving.

But it has to be more careful.

I have said, in the past week, that what is ironic is that these

churches were bombed and attacked when they were full -

that was only two months after the bombing in Cairo.

So it hasn't dissuaded people from going to church.

Well, you talk about resilience, and I appreciate that as you said,

those churches are still being filled, but there are signs

that the Egyptian Cops are scared in a new way.

I am thinking about what we have seen El Arish, a small town

in northern Sinai, where the so-called IS group made explicit

threats, saying "We are going to come after you Christians,

and we are going to kill you."

And we saw some deaths, but we saw many fleeing,

leaving the community altogether.

Do you believe that is an inevitable response?

That that was the sensible response?

Well, at the time, and that was the right response,

because they felt - they had been undergoing attacks

for weeks leading up to that.

But at that point, they realised they had no more sustainable

presence there and their families were at risk.

So they moved to surrounding dioceses, that absorbed them.

I don't think I would use the word "fear".

I don't think I have heard any of our church leadership

or community use the word fear, but they are concerned.

And they have every right to protect their families.

And they did that in this instance by leaving.

But they remain targeted, because they can't all

become internally displaced.

An interesting phrase used by one of your colleagues,

Bishop Makarios of Minya diocese, he said "We can now consider

ourselves to be living through a wave of persecution."

Is this an era of outright, sustained persecution,

in your view?

I think we've lived a history of persecution throughout our

presence in Egypt.

And it's intensified at various times.

In our contemporary history, ever since the presence

of the president, the former president, Sadat, when Islamists

were given a slightly greater rein, and so they started to divide up

the community in that way, Christians became more visible

and a bigger target for them.

It is a fault line, isn't it?

I'm looking at the analysis of experts in Islamism in Egypt,

like Naji Sharab.

He says the intent, here, is to make a separation

between Muslims and Christians, and to start a outright religious

conflict in Egypt.

That is what the so-called Islamic State is about.

Can they succeed?

I don't think so.

They - they haven't so far.

So whether it was after the bombing in Cairo, or these bombings,

Egypt is very different to the rest of the Middle East.

There - there isn't a tribal presence there.

It is much more homogenous presence.

In actual fact, what we see after every one of these attacks

is a greater support from the greater Muslim community,

because they see themselves in the community as targeted as well.

So it doesn't make us more marginalised.

People have come out to support us.

The outpouring of support and shock that we have seen,

in the community, both in Egypt and globally,

as a result, is a tell-tale sign.

To that extent, you strike me as an optimist.

You could flip it around, and talk about how the state,

represented by President al-Sisi and the machinery of the state,

still doesn't take what would seem to me to be basic structural

measures to ensure that the long-term discrimination

against Coptic Christians in Egypt is addressed.

You know, there's the short-term, the three-month emergency,

and the specific new law about church construction,

but many Copts say "What is taught in schools, what about the horrible

extremism that comes from some mosques, why are these

things not addressed?"

I think we are starting to see it addressed in the past few months.

I think it will take a generation.

This sort of thought process has infiltrated the education system,

the general society, so much that it needs to be replaced

by something else.

So the curricula have to change.

The sense of citizenship, belonging to the country

as a citizen, it has to change, and Christians it is he themselves

as part of that, and Muslims living alongside them as well.

I mean, I've spent time, myself, reporting for HARDtalk,

in Upper Egypt, some of the towns around Aswan,

Minya, other towns along the Nile, going all the way down south,

you still find many communities where Christians do feel

that their security is constantly under threat.

And the government knows it, but still doesn't seem to do

much about it.

That has been the weak point.

So, at the national level, I think we have hearing very

legitimate, very sincere promises from the President,

from the government, from the national security services,

but when one comes down to the local level, to the villages,

to the districts, where there's a sense of impunity,

because crimes are - crimes go unreported,

sometimes, because they realise that it will not be investigated

properly, there will be no reprisal, no convictions.

And so therefore, there is a ratcheting up, there's

an intensification of the kind of attack, and becomes more

deadly every time.

And the question is, at local level, municipal level,

regional, the national level, how many Coptic Christians

are in positions of real authority?

Say, in the judiciary, or in local government.

You are a Copt with great knowledge of your country.

Can you, hand on heart, say your community is represented

in the machinery of government and justice?

Absolutely not.

And that has been the problem over the past decades.

There is most definitely a glass ceiling.

And it's not because there aren't enough Christians or they are not

intelligent enough or specialised enough, because what we see

is the leading the public sector and go to the private sector,

and becoming very, very successful.

And that in itself creates a greater resentment,

because they are being seen as successful.

So think is part of the overall solution, in the sense

of citizenship, there needs to be greater representation -

and the understanding that Christians can be productive,

sincere, faithful members of a community, and be people

who can work side-by-side with Muslims.

But Bishop, is not one of the problems that you and other

senior leaders in the church, including the current Pope,

but also Pope Shenouda, whom of course you worked

for the past.

You as a collection group at the top of the church have year-upon-year

have been in the pocket of Egypt's rulers.

And I am thinking of Mubarek, and now I'm thinking of Sisi.

It obviously wasn't the case when the Muslim Brotherhood

was in power, but you celebrated when Sisi came back to power.

And the danger is coming yet again, that you're making the same mistake

you and the church are allying yourself with an authoritarian

leader.

Well, I don't think we've been in anyone's pocket.

Because in a very literal sense, the church is self-funded,

self-protected, we are self-governing.

We haven't seen any greater benefits by supporting anyone.

If we look across the presidencies in the past, we've been

attacked equally throughout.

And I think we have to change the paradigm of this conversation

a little bit, because I think Christians in Egypt,

as in anywhere, have a to right to express their allegiances

to whichever political leadership or party they see

will hold their interests, without reprisal.

And I think that's very important.

That can't be justification.

But - yeah, but you know, a lot of Copts, today,

I've been looking at the blogs, looking at social media.

They are frustrated that you at the top of the church do seem

to be knee-jerk loyal to the president of the country,

Mr al-Sisi.

For example, while Iskander, who blogs frequently on Coptic

issues, he's actually questioned the current Pope's fidelity

to the Coptic creed.

He said "The Pope and the Church, right now, show very little love,

except to the regime, itself."

I mean, he is - he is very resentful.

I know, and I have communicated with him in the past.

I agree with this frustration, but I don't think it

is about loyalty.

It is about alternatives.

Suppose we don't support the current president, al-Sisi.

What is the alternative?

We saw in the past presidency, our cathedral, for the first time

in living history, being attacked in the sight of security forces

who were standing, looking on and doing absolutely nothing.

So that wasn't a viable option.

What we can also realise is, if you are looking at the landscape,

who is going to hold the interests of not only Christians,

but Egyptians as a whole.

If there was an alternative, I would say yes, of course,

there is an alternative.

But you know, this is a council of despair.

You're saying we have to collaborate with authoritarians,

because if you don't, you have no protection

at all, you're defenseless.

But I daresay Christians felt similar things

in Saddam Hussein's Iraq, and Bashar al-Assad's Syria.

But look at what has happened to questions in those countries.

Because when the dam breaks, when the authoritarian

loses his grip, because of the - quote unquote - collaboration,

Christians are in even more danger, aren't they?

Christians are in danger anyway.

Over the past decades, we've seen that.

And I don't think it is a blind allegiance.

It is an informed choice.

Because one looks at the options.

Or lack of choice?

Exactly.

One looks at the options.

On the 30th of September, when Egyptians came out

into the streets, they were by no means only Christians.

There was a huge spectrum.

Yet, when we see police officers killed, soldiers killed,

no-one asks where they were on the 30th.

No-one asks what their political support is.

They realise that they are targeted because they are police officers

or soldiers or anything else.

So Christians are being targeted by this fringe, just

because they are Christians.

And I think no matter what ever the affiliation would be,

they would still be targets because of the intolerance

because of this fringe element within Egypt.

Well, you could speak out more.

I'm giving you a chance in his interview to speak

out against al-Sisi.

A bunch of intellectuals, Coptic intellectuals,

at the time he went to New York for the last UN General Assembly,

came out and issued a statement, quite a condemnatory statement

about Sisi, saying that "despite cooperation

between the current regime and the Egyptian churches," and that

would be, you know, church leaders like yourself "ordinary Christian

citizens, day by day, still suffer from discrimination."

You know, you have an opportunity, here, to say "Mr Sisi,

President Sisi, your stand - your words about helping us

and supporting us are not backed by actions, and it's

not good enough."

We have said that.

But it would be naive of any of the analysts to say

that we do not make demands and do not stand by our people.

We have nothing to benefit except the interests of our people,

and we do make demands, whether it was for people in Arish,

or who are attacked on a daily basis or others.

And I think it is important for me as a bishop that we make these

demands, we have made them to the government,

through their dramatic core, and we have nothing to fear

in making these claims.

The background, it is striking to me that the Pope described

the Arab Spring, which we remember in 2011 a surge of people

across the region taking to the streets in support

of Democratic change and reform, he described the Arab Spring as,

quote, not a spring but a winter, plotted by malicious hands.

Is that a place where Christians in the region want to be?

Against that surge of populist support for change

and an end to authoritarianism?

No one is against reform, absolutely.

I think we saw what was going to happen, we saw,

knowing Egypt and knowing the political landscape,

knowing the mentality and dynamic, that once this leader was gone,

it would become a political vacuum.

That vacuum would be filled by people who may not

have the interests of the country at heart.

We saw the greatest number of attacks in those two years

than we had had for the previous 20 years, because it was

an anarchic state.

As well because there was a sense of empowerment of those

who were on the fringes.

Those who didn't really want to think about anyone else.

The thing about democracy is that it is a means to an end.

I think that end is that a democracy is only as strong as it is able

to protect its smallest unit.

Let me ask you about the visit of Pope Francis.

We've been discussing how the local Coptic Church

finesses its relationship to the state and power in a very

troubled atmosphere in Egypt today.

What do you want from Pope Francis?

How robust do you want his message to the Egyptian government

and people to be?

I think on record, Pope Francis has been very robust in his message

in support of Christians in the Middle East and Egypt,

and indeed many persecuted people around the world.

It is a Christian message of equality and sanctity of life

and dignity of life.

I think that is the message that people will get.

He is primarily going to visit his own constituency,

but also to support the Christians of Egypt, and to look

into the Christian-Muslim dialogue on violent extremism.

I think that voice going into that dialogue, that conversation

is going to be important.

It's not about conferences and dialogues any more,

it is about taking ownership of the texts that are being used

by the caliphate and its affiliates to manipulate Muslims.

Muslims who could otherwise be very good Muslims,

who use violence against peaceful, peace loving people.

I have a Christian has broken...

Do you think most Muslims are going to take lectures

from leaders like Pope Francis?

No.

I am saying that the nature of the dialogue is to try and speak

to our Muslim friends in leadership to say,

they need to take this ownership of their own texts.

Some of them are doing it around the world.

There are Western Christian leaders and commentators who fear that

Egypt, the fate of Christians in Egypt could, in years to come,

have horrible similarities to the fate of Christians

in Iraq and Syria.

In Iraq, we have seen, since 2003, 80% of all Christians in the country

either killed or have left.

In Syria, the figures are getting close to that as well.

Christian communities are almost eliminated.

Could that happen in Egypt?

It is going to be more difficult.

There is going to be greater pressure, this is not the end,

this is only the beginning of the campaign.

Your numbers are going down?

Some have said Coptic Christians are 10% of 90 million,

others say it is fewer.

The numbers seem to be going down?

The numbers tend to be somewhere between 9-13%.

We have indications of about 15%.

I think what we have seen, because it is such a book,

it is very difficult to get what we have seen in other places.

For every five Christians in the Middle East, four

are in Egypt.

They have become a target and they live under greater pressure.

There will be some relief, but I can't imagine we will have

that amount of haemorrhaging we have had in other places,

because what used to happen was that there would be persecution

in one place, a person would go to a neighbouring

Middle Eastern country.

With a series of failed states, the only way out is Europe

or North America and that is becoming more difficult.

Let me ask you about a very sensitive and important word

in this debate.

The former Archbishop of Canterbury used it the other day.

That word is genocide.

He says that we have to acknowledge and report what is happening

to Christians in the Middle East as a genocide, and that there

are clear moral and legal imperatives, therefore,

to intervene on the part of Western nations and international nations,

not just Western nations.

Is that word relevant?

Is it, in your view, the right word for what is happening to Christians?

Absolutely.

We have seen it happen in Iraq, Libya, Syria, and of course

in a smaller scale, but it is happening now in Egypt,

from this radical fringe.

I was very much part of the campaign that ran to the United States before

the genocide by Congress, we went to the State Department,

I was very happy to hear a parliament here be very much

in line with that.

I think it is really our responsibility, as a minister

and a Christian, I need to look at the interests of people.

I would be very tribal and supercritical if I was just

to look at Christians in Egypt, without looking at Christians

across the Middle East and looking at even groups

like the Yazidi, too.

There is a narrow in scope through the Middle East.

Only certain people have the right to exist.

We need, in conscience, to address that.

If it is a word you say is entirely the right word,

then what on earth is your view of Western political leaders

who are not intervening?

There has been a deafening silence over the past decades.

I think we have seen that starting to break recently.

Some would say it is too little, too late, but is not too late

for those who are still there and suffering.

Whatever we can do, even at this late stage,

we must try to do.

Talking about those still suffering, there is also a debate about them,

because, frankly, it seems that in Iraq and Syria,

even those still there are making plans to escape.

They see no future in either country.

They think the Christian experience and presence in those

countries is over.

Yet, we have Christian leaders, I will now quote words from a former

cleric, he wrote this open letter to his flock in Syria saying,

despite all your suffering, stay here, do not emigrate.

We absorb the faithful, call them to patience in spite

of the tribulations, in spite of the tsunami

and bloody, tragic crises.

Jesus tells us, he finished, fear not.

Do you, as a religious Christian leader, have a right

to tell your flock not to flee in the face of all of this?

The patriarch has a right to approach his own people in a way

he thinks is fitting.

What is your view of whether that is the right thing to say to ordinary

Christian people facing the reality of life and death in Iraq

and Syria today?

It is exactly that, facing reality.

I don't think I should put the burden on a single individual

for the continuance of Christianity, and have him or her stay

there at the personal cost, because of that.

I think people need to make a personal decision.

If they think they have a viable presence in existence,

we need to support them to stay safe and dignified.

But if they need to leave, if they think, they will decide

on the interest and safety of their children and families,

we need to provide a safe passage.

I don't think we can prescribe that.

What would you do if it was you and your family in Iraq

or Syria today?

It is difficult to know.

If I was alone as a celibate monk, I would probably stay.

If I had to look after a family with vulnerable people,

children, the elderly, I would look after their interests.

That is why I say it is a particular personal decision that we can't take

away from people.

They need to make those decisions for themselves and to be able

to ensure the rights...

We live in freedom, dignity and safety, and I don't think

I should expect less of anybody in the world.

Bishop Angaelos, thank you very much for being on HARDtalk.

Thank you.