Sylvie Goulard MEP - La République en Marche HARDtalk

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Hello, welcome to HARDtalk.

I'm Shaun Ley.

This Sunday, Emmanuel Macron takes office as President of France.

His nascent political organisation promises to get France's sluggish

economy on the move again.

But only if, from nowhere, it can win legislative

elections next month.

Sylvie Goulard, a Liberal MEP frustrated by previous presidents'

broken promises to reform, has thrown her support

behind Mr Macron.

Even if he gains enough assembly members to get his way,

can a President Macron deliver and move France forward,

when the Minister Macron he was just months ago could not?

Sylvie Goulard, welcome to HARDtalk,

joining us from Paris today for this interview.

It's an important time for your country, one of the most

important of recent years.

Let me begin with the question of a mandate.

Does Macron see his victory, do you believe,

as a mandate to change France?

Yes, of course he does.

the government,

because he is absolutely convinced, and so am I, that our country

desperately needs reforms, and has also many assets to be

in a better situation, to have more prosperity and more

influence in Europe, in the world.

He won 20 million votes in the second round last Sunday,

but how much of that was actually a positive vote for him

and his vision for France?

And how much of it was to simply stop Marine Le Pen?

Well, in any case, we stopped Marine Le Pen,

which is a piece of very good news.

And it is not surprising that with the French electoral system,

where you have two terms, in the first one you choose your

favourite candidate, and in the second one you eliminate.

We are perfectly aware that many people don't share

completely his vision of the future.

It will be our duty to convince them it is good for France but, in any

case, he is the President-elect.

I was interested by a survey conducted by Ipsos, the polling

company for French state television, this week, in the wake

of the election.

43% of those who voted for Macron told pollsters that their main

reason was to stop Marine Le Pen.

33% said it was to renew France's political class.

Only 16% said it was because they backed his programme, and mandate?

If you remember the Bible, you don't need too much salt on this

earth because if you have too much salt, it's not...

I'm joking a little bit.

Of course we hope that we can convince people but I want

to underline that he made a very courageous campaign,

campaigning for Europe, being pro-business and pro-trade,

procompetition, being a French liberal, which is normally something

that does not even exist.

When I remember how many campaigns in other member states,

even during Brexit, were just meant to tell to the people

what they are expecting to hear, and not what is a result

of a courageous analysis of the state of the world -

I must say that I prefer this option.

In any case, the fact that we defeated Marine Le Pen

is also a major event for Europe and the world economy.

It is certainly the case that Mr Macron's election broke records.

The highest number registering they support neither candidate.

4 million of them, 11% voting, saying that -

and the highest number not to turn up at all.

A quarter of those on the electoral register.

Take those categories out, and 66% of the vote is really only

43% of French adults.

For the kinds of reforms and radical changes that he says he wants

to make, I wonder how confident he can be that that is anything more

than cautious conditional support from the French?

I wonder why you are so negative today?!

Some weeks ago, the world press was afraid of having Marine Le Pen,

at the top of France.

We know that we have lots more expectations to meet,

and lots of frustrations to hear.

But once again, one of the nicest things in Emmanuel Macron's campaign

was to be, for the first time, to give positive messages

to the French people, to tell them that you can make it

if you work hard.

We want a society in which people who are unemployed can

have a chance, where people with migrant backgrounds

in the suburbs can have a future.

And even if it is difficult, I really prefer this way of looking

at the future than any of the other proposals that were on the table.

I appreciate that you think I'm being negative,

but I would suggest to you that this is a practical question.

As you know far better than I would, the French system gives

the president authority when he takes office over foreign

affairs and defence this week.

But he needs a majority in the National Assembly to get

things done on the domestic stage.

I wonder, having created a political movement almost overnight,

how he is planning to achieve that?

It is a very high and very challenging bar.

You are perfectly right.

The French constitution foresees on the one hand

a very strong president, directly elected, but also

a parliamentary system, the Prime Minister being responsible

in the front of the house.

Of course, the objective of En Marche is to get a majority

in the election in June - as large as possible.

But, to a certain extent, we should not underestimate one thing.

The problem of the French political system is not Macron.

It is the state in which the old parties have left it.

In a nutshell, it's not the election of this president

that is creating a mess.

We had a mess before, we had Francois Hollande

as a president that was not in a position, even if theoretically

he had a majority in the parliament, he was not always in the position

to have a majority on some of the very important

pieces of legislation.

For example, the reform of the labour market.

Sorry to interrupt - but for our audience

to be aware of this, it is one where Mr Macron's

reforms had to be shoved through by the President

because he could not persuade his own party to back

them wholeheartedly.

In a sense, it illustrates the kind of challenges the president

will face when he is creating a political movement from nothing.

Even if he wins a majority in June's elections,

that will be hard enough, it will be made up of people

who have not been bonded in this way over years of working together,

who do not share a well-established ideology.

So if they could not do it when they did,

how will they do it when they don't?

No, thanks God, I can tell you, being very often on the ground

during the campaigns, the people who will be

the candidates of En Marche really share a common vision,

which is rare enough in the French tradition to be noticed.

This is the first thing.

I do not accept that you say that our candidates are not

converging on the most important things, on the contrary.

The second element is that - to be honest - the old parties

are no more in a position to have a united

position on many issues.

So we take a risk, maybe, but it is worth taking it

because the old system is simply dead.

So if the old system is dead, presumably you don't want the kind

of living dead who currently inhabit the old system?

MPs from other political parties, from the dying socialist party

or the moribund Republicans, you are not interested in them.

You purely want fresh blood?

What we announce, we will try and do what we have announced publicly

in February already.

That is that we would like to have half of the Assemblee nationale

consisting in MPs with some experience, coming

from the centre-right or the centre-left...

Coming from the old parties who have let down France?

Yes, but maybe the youngest one...

In a system, even if you have dysfunctioning systems,

you always have good people trying to do their best.

We can keep some of them in order to keep some

of the Parliamentary experience.

You underlined that rightly...

Manuel Valls, the former Prime Minister of Francois Hollande

who resigned a few months ago, to make his pitch for the presidency

of the Elysee Palace, he says he wants to be one of those

bright young things in Mr Macron's political campaign.

Is that the sort of person you are looking for?

No, we've already said that we will not endorse his candidacy,

because let me come back to my point...

We had some public criteria on renewal, and also procedure.

En Marche created an independent commission, with people

looking at the candidates, the applications that we received.

We've received more than 14,000 applications

for more or less 300 seats.

I won't dwell on this too much, because, in a sense,

it is unknowable.

But you know there are other examples of political insurgencies

where parties are proved to be rather like herding cats.

One thinks of the Five Star movement in Italy,

where the challenge was to get a group of people, many who had

never been in politics before, who were the fresh new blood

and were keen on what was being said.

To actually go through the hard slog of voting for the detail.

But that is unknowable and I accept that.

But what we do know is that President-elect Macron's

political manifesto...

He has an agenda.

He may or may not get Parliamentary majority.

Does he hope that if he fails to get a parliamentary

majority on his own, at the very least, France's other

political parties will give him some degree of cooperation

in getting his reform agenda through Parliament?

Well, ask George Clooney!

He would say, what else?

Once again, we have to be very clear.

The country is in a serious situation.

We need to boost the economy, we need to fight people

who have extremist views.

I hope that, even if En Marche does not have the absolute majority,

which is not at this stage something that we can say, because

nobody knows, we hope that we might have one.

Let's say that we don't.

In this case I can imagine that people from the Republican can share

some of our own proposals - or can support.

Many countries - Germany, the Netherlands, some others -

they work with coalitions.

Even in the UK, if I remember rightly, you had a coalition

of the Tories and the Lib Dems.

Indeed.

But again, a coalition created because the electorate declined

to give any party a majority.

Let me ask you about the specific proposals...

We are not going to change.

If I may, we are Democrats.

We will respect the results of the vote.

And we fight for the absolute majority.

Of course, if the French people decide not to give us the majority,

then we will do our best in a constructive way.

But you cannot just wash your hands and say,

if I do not have the majority, I do nothing.

Very well, so President Macron will roll up his sleeves,

regardless of what happens in the assembly elections?

These are the kinds of things he said he wants.

He wants to modernise France.

You observe just a couple of years ago that the country

is uncompetitive at the moment.

Hardly surprising - you said public expenditure amounts

to 55% of GDP.

Where will the Macron axe fall on the public sector,

to bring it down to size?

Well, you are perfectly right.

We have to reduce the public sector, and we will do it step-by-step.

Our goal is to reduce the public spending,

to lose three or four points during the five years,

because it is not something that you can change in one night.

But the goal is absolutely clear, to reduce public spending and make

some economies in some sectors, to save money in some sectors,

but also to invest in order to have the possibility,

for example, to modernise and have more digital administrations...

This is not an easy task...

So reducing expenditure will help you to redirect some of the money

into more productive things?

First of all, yes - and also to have a less of a burden

on French society in terms of local authorities

and social expenditures...

Not targeted...

Sorry to interrupt, the manifesto that Mr Macron published his vision

had a target of 60 billion euros to be saved.

But 10 billion of that assumes unemployment falls from 10% to 7%,

saving money on benefits being reduced.

15 billion assumes greater efficiency in the health system,

and, goodness me, a British politician would tell

you about the dangers of promising efficiency savings

in the health system.

A further 10 billion is assumed to come from local government.

The Department making cuts, not the President central

administration.

When you break it down, it doesn't look quite so radical?

No, as I said, it is only something you can do step-by-step.

Francois Fillon was more radical and on the piece of paper it is easy

to do it.

The most important thing is to move from the tendency that we have

to another one - it will take years, but we are convinced

it is good for France.

I wonder why you are so understanding about the limitations

now, when three years ago, in October 2014, you wrote

in the Financial Times very dismissively of Prime Minister Valls

proposals of exactly the same sort?

Paris, you wrote, "plans to shave ?50 billion off public spending,

equivalent to 4% of the total, but it's not in any hurry.

Making the savings would take three years.

If there is something exceptional in France,

it's the attitude of denial in which all the political

parties have lapsed."

An attitude of denial, I would suggest, of which Emmanuel Macron,

a former minister in President Hollande's government,

is as guilty as the guilty men and women who you have condemned

in the old system?

Wow - is it a court or a broadcast?

You are judging another country with very severe words...

I'm judging you on your own words, Ms Goulard.

That's what you wrote three years ago, and suddenly you think,

it's fine to take all the time in the world?

I agree with you, but in these three years, many things have happened.

We had Marine Le Pen in the second turn of the presidential elections,

and we have a very high extreme left.

I'm absolutely convinced, and everything I've done

in the European Parliament was in favour of strengthening

the budgetary disciplines.

On the other hand, you cannot ignore in which country

you are and the legacy of what was done, or not done,

before.

That's the reason why.

I think it is very important to bring the message to the French.

We've tried to do it during the campaign,

and were not complacent at all compared with all of the other

candidates who were still fighting against Europe or putting

the blame on Berlin.

We did it.

Simply, we consider that it is also our duty to tell the truth,

and the truth is that if you create big troubles by being too brutal,

after years of denial, it isn't the best way

to save the country.

So we are absolutely convinced that we need

to have a balanced approach.

You mentioned Berlin.

Mr Macron's first international visit as president would

be to Germany.

You were with him the last time that he visited Chancellor Merkel.

What you think will convince her that the candidate she met

is a serious reformer as President of France?

It is too early to say, and I'm not Mrs Merkel,

to answer the question...

But you have a great insight into Germany?

You've been involved with the German system for many years.

You were one of the outsiders when you worked with

the French Foreign Ministry.

You helped to broker reunification.

I'm not asking somebody who is an outsider.

I'm asking somebody who who probably is one of the best important people

in France about German political attitudes.

And I don't say that to flatter, I think it is a statement of fact?

No, no.

And I'm not saying that I don't want to answer.

But the only thing I can do is to speak on my behalf.

I don't pretend to represent Mrs Merkel, I'm not

the German ambassador here!

The key question is the following one -

first of all, are we serious enough?

And your questions were fair, we have to be very...

How can I say?

We have to be aware of how far we have to go internally,

and Emmanuel Macron has never underestimated that there are many

decisions to take at a national level.

On the other hand, I'm absolutely convinced that it is in the German

national interests to keep a good relationship with France.

To avoid to be seen, even if it was not intentional

as having Germanic visions of Europe, and of course,

to help to build new policies.

If you look at the world as it is, I'm quite sure that in the coming

years, security issues, defence, fighting against cyber attacks,

fighting against terrorism, border controls around the EU

or the Schengen area, they will be top of the agenda.

Of course, we have to convince the Germans that we can make

the reforms necessary to boost the French economy.

This is something true.

But we also need to convince them to move in some fields,

where we have many - how can I say - lots of responsibility in common

for the future and security of this continent.

Emmanuel Macron has called Brexit, the British decision to quit

the European Union, "a crime".

Crimes, usually, are answered with punishment to discourage others

from engaging in similar criminal and nefarious activity.

What punishment does he think would be appropriate,

do you think, for Britain?

As I told you, I speak on my behalf, and I am just underlying the fact

that everybody in Brussels has seriously taken the British vote.

Nobody is putting it into question, and nobody wants to punish

the British people.

That is not at all the way that we look at things.

On the other hand, I think a country that insists upon having control

on its own interests can understand that other countries also want

control on what happens in the EU.

So, the negotiation is going to take place.

The negotiating team has a mandate, and we will see when the president

will be in place, and have a team.

We will see how we can negotiate.

It is in nobody's interests not to have an agreement or see

the relationship deteriorat.

It will not be in the interests of the UK or in our interests neither.

It will be tough negotiations but I hope fair.

If I may again stress the security and intelligence aspects,

this is one of the reasons, the quality of the relationship our

two countries have in this field.

It must make us very responsible in negotiating for the rest.

Last month, you told an interviewer that "certain problems are solved

by transferring sovereignty".

This is the case with border controls.

Why then does Mr Macron want to re-negotiate the Le Touquet

agreement between Britain and France?

That's a bilateral deal which has nothing to do with the EU,

but it allows officers from the British Border Agency

to operate in France, to prevent migrants travelling

illegally into the UK?

Once again, I can only stress one thing.

The French border will be, in the future, and external border

of the EU in any case.

As well as the French border in front of Dover and the channel.

Once again, we are not going to begin the negotiations

today during this broadcast.

We don't yet have a president in charge.

These are sensitive issues on an ongoing negotiation.

The only negotiator is Michel Barnier.

But this is not a bilateral question, the Le Touquet

agreement...

Of course...

You are right.

But you cannot completely separate a negotiation with the UK

on bilateral issues with the comprehensive negotiation

the EU is conducting also on behalf of France.

France is in both bodies, and even the UK isn't.

We will look at it carefully and when it is about migrants

and human lives, it should not be something that we look at without -

how can I say - deep thought.

I don't want to enter now into a negotiation.

It would not be appropriate at all.

Finally, let me ask you about yourself, as you probably

observe, President Macron will only become President on Sunday

when he formally succeeds Francois Hollande.

Have you been asked to serve in his government?

The day I can answer this question, I will call the BBC again!

If the call comes, would you say yes?

I don't want to comment on this issue.

It is a prerogative of the president to decide who will be his

Prime Minister, so I respect the French constitution.

And you are an MEP, will you at least be a candidate

for the parliamentary elections?

That would be announced before...

I am not a candidate.

No, I am not a candidate.

Sylvie Goulard, leaving more questions unanswered,

which I hope we will have the opportunity to speak

to you about again.

Thank you very much for speaking to us live from Paris for HARDtalk.

Hello there.

After the dry weather that we have been experiencing for days and weeks