Elif Shafak HARDtalk


Elif Shafak

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Now on BBC News, it is time for HARDtalk.

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Welcome to HARDtalk. I'm Stephen Sackur.

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A dozen years ago, Europeans looked to Turkey and thought they saw

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a country becoming more like them, embracing Western values

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and on a long-term track to EU membership.

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But today, well, Europe sees authoritarianism,

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conservatism, and repression embodied in the all-powerful figure

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of President Erdogan.

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My guest is Elif Shafak, the Turkish novelist and writer

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who lives much of her life in London.

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Does the West get anywhere close to understanding Turkey's complex

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culture and politics?

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Elif Shafak, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you.

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When you write of Turkey today, I wonder what emotions draw you?

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Would it be anger or sadness or incomprehension?

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I think there is a lot of sadness. I feel sad.

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I feel worried.

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So much is changing in Turkey and so fast.

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I think speed is important with many things that are happening,

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with a bewildering speed which almost prevents time to stop

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and analyse because something else happens next week and so it goes

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on and on.

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I am very sad when I look at the direction that my motherland

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has taken, and I think we have become a very unhappy nation,

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and unhappy people.

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Do you feel that you and Turkey have a greater distance

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between you than ever before?

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Because I referred to the fact that you live most of your

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life in London.

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Even from being a young girl, you were very used to travelling

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around the world, but doesn't the distance from your motherland

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feel much greater today?

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I wouldn't generalise like that because, as you know,

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Turkey is a very polarised, bitterly divided, bitterly

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politicised country.

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So there is also a civil society in Turkey that perhaps we do not

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hear much about.

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But within that civil society, there are so many progressive

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people, open minded Democrats who do know that their country deserves

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much better than this.

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Minorities, women, students, youth, so when I look at the people,

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I feel very connected.

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When I look at Turkey's politics and politicians,

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then yes, the distance is enormous.

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I want to dig inside the civil society that you see in Turkey today

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in a minute, but I want to begin by focusing on perspectives

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between Europe and Turkey today and the degree to which there is,

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frankly, a complete lack of understanding.

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Do you think there is mutual misunderstanding, both ways?

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The journey of Turkey's EU membership I think has been

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so important and there are several turning points,

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misunderstandings, and mistakes.

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Turkey no doubt is a very complicated country,

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very multilayered.

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Sometimes European observers say they find it difficult to understand

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Turkey.

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Many Turks feel the same way about their own country.

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But that said, I think we need to remember there was a time when it

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seemed almost possible that Turkey was going to become a member

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of the EU, around 2005, 2006.

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Almost a historical moment, and that moment is lost now.

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I remember that moment very well because actually,

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as it happens, I was based in Brussels for the BBC,

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following every move in the Turkey-EU relationship,

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as they sought to get to a point where membership negotiations

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would become real and meaningful, but here we are, as you say,

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a dozen years later and there is no prospect at all.

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In fact, I just want to read to you something that

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President Erdogan said just a few weeks ago.

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He said, "In Europe, things have become very serious

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in terms of the extent of Islamophobia.

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The EU is now closing its doors on Turkey and Turkey doesn't

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close its doors on anyone."

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But that's a narrative that suggests the currently pretty poisonous

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relationship between Europe and Turkey is the fault of Europe

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because Europe can't handle the fact that Turkey is a Muslim country.

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We need to remember how the relationship has collapsed,

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going back ten years.

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I did criticise the Turkish Government for failing

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to fulfil EU criteria.

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We needed those reforms.

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Primarily in order to improve our immature and wobbly democracy.

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It was going to be good for Turkey's future and for Turkey's civil

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society as well, but I also criticised some of the politicians,

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particularly to make it more clear, populist politicians,

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within Europe, continental Europe, especially in France at the time

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of Sarkozy, who used Turkey at the time as the fear card

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in their own electoral campaigns.

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What they did was quite short-sighted and what we need

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to understand is ever since the EU became more distanced from Turkey,

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this directly worked into the hands of isolationists in Turkey,

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and who are those?

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They are the nationalists, they are the Islamists,

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and they are the ones who want a more authoritarian regime.

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So Turkey became more and more enclosed.

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It is very sad that years and years ago, public opinion,

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public support for EU membership in Turkey was incredibly high.

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But not now?

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Not now.

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I mean, the Turkish Prime Minister, Mr Yildirim, just told our programme

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a couple of weeks ago, he said if there were a vote right

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now in Turkey, he has no doubt that the vote would be

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against membership of the European Union,

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and I'll come back to this point about you and your country.

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I mean, you do live in London.

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You are westernised, if that phrase means

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anything at all.

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Of course, Turkey has always been seen as this country pulled

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and pushed between East and West, and the western element

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within Turkey does appear to have lost out.

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Well, the Government officials are saying that the public opinion

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right now is quite negative.

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Yes, but that's also not unrelated to the fact that constantly

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the government itself is producing this anti-Western rhetoric

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and they're talking about joining the Shanghai pact, walking

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in the opposite direction with Kurdistan, China and Russia,

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and surely that is the right place to be for a country with such a poor

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record of human rights violations, human rights and freedom of speech.

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I personally never want to see Turkey walking in that direction.

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I want Turkey sharing the same values that matters

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so much in Europe.

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We have such a long history together.

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I am not only talking about financial, economic ties,

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not only political ties, but also cultural ties that go

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all the way back to the Ottoman Empire.

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With regards to identity, it is a big issue in Turkey

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and I wish we could see being in the middle of East and West

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as a source of richness instead of as something to get rid of.

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I wish we could see that diversity is a treasure in itself.

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I have always believed in multiple belongings.

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Yes, I am an Istanbulite, but I am also a Londoner.

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There are so many elements in my soul, from the Middle East,

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I am attached to the Asian, the Mediterranean, the Balkans.

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I am a European by choice and I like to believe that I am

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a world citizen.

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Why not have multiple belongings?

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We do not have to be narrowed down to a singular,

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monolithic identity politics.

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Well, it is fascinating you put it that way,

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and you put me in mind of the recent novel you wrote which was published

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last year, Three Daughters of Eve, which is about a Turkish woman,

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Peri, who is living in Istanbul but still struggling to quite come

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to terms with her complicated past which involved being educated

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in the West, questions about her identity, relationship

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to living in a Muslim country, albeit in Istanbul,

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which is obviously in many ways the most liberal city in Turkey.

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It strikes me that you are Peri, in a way.

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There are a lot of issues that she is wrestling

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with and uncertainties and other easiness that she has that you have.

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In my recent novel, there are three women

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characters, female characters.

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All of them come from Muslim backgrounds but there

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are relationships with identity, religion is completely different.

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So we have Shirin, who is an Iranian British student,

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and she is the child of exiled parents.

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She is an atheist.

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She no longer has any faith at all.

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Absolutely.

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She is an atheist and she's very critical of all religions,

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but in particular of Islam, because of the mistreatment

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of women.

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We have Mona, who is Egyptian American, who wears

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a headscarf and is a practising Muslim.

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Who has a belief.

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But I am really interested in Peri.

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Because it seems to me, if I may, that when you talk

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about your Istanbul and your belief that in Turkey, yes,

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there can be this third way, this wonderful synthesis of East

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and West, you speak obviously for yourself and for a tranche

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of Turkish frankly progressive liberal and perhaps not very

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representative opinion, perhaps embodied by fictional

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characters like Peri as well, but do you really feel that you tap

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into the feelings of many ordinary Turks today?

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I think it goes beyond Turkey, but Turkey is an interesting

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platform in that regard because of our many,

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many confusions.

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We are a very confused nation about our identity,

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where we stand.

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So it is not a coincidence that I brought these girls together.

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They jokingly call themselves the sinner, the believer,

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and the confused.

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And you are right.

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I particularly wanted to follow the confused and write

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about the confusions of our times.

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I'm intrigued by this debate on faith.

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Is there another path?

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Is there another way of talking about these issues,

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a more secularist approach?

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A nonreligious way of talking about faith, is that possible?

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Maybe to put it more bluntly, I'm intrigued by faith but I do know

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that faith without doubt is a dogma and dogmas

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are very, very dangerous.

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But I guess my point is what you have just said

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is fascinating and it is nuanced, and is there any room for nuance

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in Turkey today?

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Because look at the way Mr Erdogan handles politics.

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He referred to himself once, rather famously, as a black Turk.

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The idea that there is now this popularisation in Turkey

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between the white Turks, who he would regard as the elite,

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unrepresentative perhaps, associations with the military

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and the state in the past, and then what he identifies

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as the black Turks, who as the masses, the people

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who have faith, have religion, and frankly follow him.

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That is not a nuanced view of where Turkey is today

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but it is Erdogan's view and Erdogan is by so far the dominant player

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and character in Turkey's story today.

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Populism in general thrives upon dualities and populist

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demagogues like the distinction between us versus them.

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They're creating us versus them.

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They benefit from that.

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I think it is the artist's, it is the writer's job to introduce

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more nuance and hopefully to bring forth a more nuanced way of looking

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at things, but you are definitely right.

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Given the state of things in Turkey today, we have to bear in mind that

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Turkey has become the world's biggest jailer of journalists.

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Journalism is the most difficult profession in Turkey today.

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And every poet, every writer, every journalist, every academic

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in Turkey knows that because of a poem,

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because of an article, a novel, or even a tweet,

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we can get into trouble so easily.

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We can be sued.

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We can be almost lynched in social media.

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We can be put on trial, may be detained or exiled or imprisoned.

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So what I am trying to say is when we write, we have this

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knowledge in the back of our minds.

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As a result, there is a lot of self-censorship,

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which is a subject we find very difficult to talk

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about because it is embarrassing.

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Do you self censor?

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But I think we need to face it.

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Well, I am asking you face it.

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Absolutely, and I am facing it.

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I think when I write fiction I never self censor not because of any other

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thing but because the art of storytelling guides me

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and when I am inside a novel I stay inside the novel for weeks

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and months, sometimes over a year.

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And those characters become my reality.

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And I forget the so-called real world.

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Only when I hand it to my editor I become very anxious and by then

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it is too late.

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And how can you say that, Elif Shafak, when you more than most

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know the repercussions of writing things that cross a line.

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In 2006, the Bastard of Istanbul was your novel which landed

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you in court.

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For a while it seemed you were going to be convicted

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of crimes under Article 301, which essentially was accusing

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you of insulting Turkishness because of the way you wrote

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about the mass killing of Armenians, what many call

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the Armenian genocide?

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Yes, in my novel the Bastard of Istanbul, I wrote the story

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of an Armenian American family and a Turkish family

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and it is a book that uses the word genocide for what happened in 1915

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and for that I was accused of insulting Turkishness under

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article 301, even though nobody knows what that exactly means.

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What is insulting Turkishness?

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It is open to misinterpretation.

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And it was a very unsettling, unnerving time for me.

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I had to live with a bodyguard for a year and a half and the trial

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itself was quite negative.

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But that's a memory you can't get rid of.

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Saying so frankly that you were unsettled, you were

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unnerved, lived for a year and a half with a bodyguard, when you

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write your books today, and I know you have just embarked on another

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novel, surely you are carrying that in your consciousness and it does

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impact the way you write, does it not?

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I think it took me a long time to heal that psychological

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turbulence in my soul.

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Of course, I was affected by that.

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But at the same time, when the book came out in

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Turkey, I was experiencing the trial and so forth,

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from the readers the

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feedback, the warmth, was amazing.

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Particularly women readers.

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Women readers of all backgrounds, Turkish,

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Kurdish, Jewish, Armenian, their words, it was just amazing.

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It showed me one thing.

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That words matter in Turkey.

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Stories matter.

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And your connection as a writer with readers is very important.

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That is why I always say being a Turkish

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writer is just like being kissed on the one cheek by readers

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and being slapped on the other cheek by the

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system exactly at the same time.

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But let me ask you this.

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If you want to make a difference in Turkey today,

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an you identify with the writers, the journalists, the

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progressives, the academics, let's not forget thousands of those have

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lost their jos and many been arrested since

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the most recent round of

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measures taken in the state of emergency.

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If you self identify with this group in Turkey, how do you

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make that voice, the let's call it progressive, liberal voice,

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resonate and count across the country, because there's no

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doubt the AKP know how to organise and

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deliver politically, and one could also say

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that the military and everything that goes with the

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Turkish military, they know how to organise.

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But it seems to me that the liberals and progressives,

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though they may be quite substantial number, they don't really organise

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or have a coherent vision for the country.

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Yes, but first of all I am so glad you mentioned academics in

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addition to journalists, writers, who are unfortunately...

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Who have lost their freedoms today.

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But the position of the academics is also so

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important.

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Thousands of them have been sacked.

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We need to understand that when you are dismissed as an

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academic and Turkey, your prospects of finding another

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job at another university is almost nil.

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These people are almost left without money, without any job, and

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completely unlawfully exact.

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So to be frank about it, the progressives,

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the liberals, they are too weak.

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They are not united.

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They don't have a coherent platform or vision and

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therefore, for all of the individual efforts of people such as yourself

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and many others, the voice doesn't resonate.

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Yes, but there are so many important voices in Turkey today.

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As we are speaking, I am very sad to say,

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two academics are on hunger strike and it has been over 60 days.

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They have now passed a very critical threshold,

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which is life-threatening medical for them.

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There are people trying to dissent, criticise,

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express their sorrow or position sometimes at the expense of their

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lives.

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You are right.

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The opposition in Turkey, the other half, is quite

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fragmented, disorganised, but let us not also

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forget what happened in

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this referendum.

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I would like to take a closer look at it.

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In the run-up to the referendum, we have

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seen a very unfair campaign.

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Almost all of the state's resources, almost

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all of the media outlets were is devoted to one side of the

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referendum, which is the yes vote, pro Erdogan.

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Essentially to change the constitution to the

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presidency, not necessarily Mr Erdogan, because he won't be there

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forever, but to give the presidency much more power.

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Yes, but it was symbolised in him, certainly.

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What I am trying to say is the other side of the campaign, the no voice,

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was almost given no free space, and just the opposite.

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People who dared to say no were either targeted,

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slandered, stigmatised, sometimes physically

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or verbally assaulted or

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lost their jobs.

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So within this climate of intimidation, we went to

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this referendum.

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But let's put all of this on the side and look at the

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picture we have in hand.

0:18:520:18:53

It is remarkable that despite the intimidation half

0:18:530:18:55

of the Turkish society still said no.

0:18:550:18:57

And that says something about the strength...

0:18:570:18:59

Well, just under half.

0:18:590:19:04

The nature of democracy is that those who get the

0:19:040:19:07

most votes tend to win and obviously in this case it was close but

0:19:070:19:11

Erdogan's side won that argument.

0:19:110:19:12

It seems to me you have got to address the

0:19:120:19:15

most basic fact of all which is that since 2003, Mr Erdogan and his

0:19:150:19:19

colleagues in the AKP have time and again

0:19:190:19:21

proven themselves to be the

0:19:210:19:22

most popular force in Turkish politics.

0:19:220:19:24

You may talk about his authoritarianism, his oppressive

0:19:240:19:26

approach to free speech in the media, but he wins elections,

0:19:260:19:29

repeatedly, and if you travel perhaps to rural Antolia, you

0:19:290:19:32

will see just how popular the man is.

0:19:320:19:37

The distinction between the countryside and urban areas is not

0:19:370:19:40

only happening in Turkey.

0:19:400:19:45

Across Europe we have seen similar patterns.

0:19:450:19:47

Even in Austria, we have seen more far right being supported

0:19:470:19:50

across the countryside and in urban areas more liberal voices voting

0:19:500:19:56

pro-liberal voices.

0:19:560:19:56

So it is a pattern that we see over and over

0:19:560:19:59

again.

0:19:590:20:00

There is a pattern.

0:20:000:20:05

You could argue that the sorts of things we

0:20:050:20:07

see in Turkey today could be linked to the political realities of Russia

0:20:080:20:11

today, where Putin is in the ascendant.

0:20:110:20:14

You could perhaps look at a country like Egypt, where 2011

0:20:140:20:17

brought the Arab Spring and so many pro-democracy voices onto the

0:20:170:20:20

streets in Cairo, but where is Egypt today?

0:20:200:20:22

Those liberal, secular, pro-democracy voices are nowhere.

0:20:220:20:24

But here is what I think.

0:20:240:20:27

Being popular or getting the most of the

0:20:270:20:29

votes, let's say, by numbers, isn't enough to gain legitimacy.

0:20:290:20:32

It is not enough to make a system a democracy.

0:20:320:20:34

And that is the biggest mistake the AKP elite

0:20:340:20:37

have been making over and

0:20:370:20:38

over throughout the years.

0:20:380:20:39

In short, what they are thinking is if we have

0:20:390:20:42

the ballot box, this is democracy, is what they are saying, and I am

0:20:420:20:46

saying no because the ballot box is only one

0:20:460:20:48

of the requirements for a

0:20:480:20:50

proper democracy.

0:20:500:20:50

In addition to the ballot box, you need other things.

0:20:500:20:53

You need rule of law, separation of powers,

0:20:530:20:55

checks and balances, definitely a free media, definitely

0:20:550:20:57

an independent academia, you need women's rights,

0:20:570:20:59

you need LGBT rights.

0:20:590:21:00

Together with all these

0:21:090:21:10

components, you can have a proper, pluralistic, functioning democracy.

0:21:100:21:18

Now, if you don't have any of those other

0:21:180:21:21

components and only have the

0:21:210:21:22

ballot box, that system cannot be called a democracy.

0:21:220:21:27

It can only be a majoritarianism at best.

0:21:270:21:29

At worst, it will go towards authoritarianism.

0:21:290:21:31

What we have lost in Turkey is the culture of code systems.

0:21:310:21:34

What we have lost is the understanding that

0:21:340:21:36

we can have diversity and unity at the same time.

0:21:360:21:39

We can have shared values.

0:21:390:21:43

Rather than that, it has always been half of the society

0:21:430:21:46

pitted against the other half.

0:21:460:21:48

And this is the rhetoric that Mr Erdogan

0:21:480:21:50

used again and again.

0:21:500:21:51

And that kind of dualism is not healthy for any

0:21:510:21:54

society.

0:21:540:21:54

And, yes, I think there is a lot of depression in Turkey at the

0:21:540:21:58

moment.

0:21:580:22:01

Would you like to escape from that depression by ceasing to

0:22:010:22:04

write about Turkey and writing about other things?

0:22:040:22:06

You have just started a new novel.

0:22:060:22:08

Is that going to be set in Turkey?

0:22:080:22:10

Frankly, I think if you are a writer from countries such as

0:22:110:22:14

Turkey, Nigeria, Pakistan, Egypt, from places that have either wobbly

0:22:140:22:16

or no democracies, if you happen to be

0:22:160:22:19

a novelist from such a

0:22:190:22:20

background, you do not have the luxury of being able to...

0:22:200:22:23

You do not have the luxury of being able to

0:22:230:22:26

say, "I close my door.

0:22:260:22:27

I am just going to live in my own bubble."

0:22:270:22:34

What I like to do as a writer is to ask

0:22:340:22:37

questions.

0:22:370:22:37

Difficult questions about difficult issues, political taboos,

0:22:370:22:39

sexual taboos, cultural taboos, just to say, "Why is it like that?

0:22:390:22:42

Let's talk about this."

0:22:420:22:43

And then I like to leave the answers to

0:22:440:22:46

the readers.

0:22:460:22:49

And in a word, if you continue to think like that and

0:22:490:22:52

write like that, you will be able to write in London, but you won't be

0:22:520:22:56

able to write in Turkey.

0:22:560:22:58

Does that bother you?

0:22:580:22:59

Yes, it does bother me, of course.

0:22:590:23:01

I mean, it makes me sad, this feeling of sorrow, melancholy I

0:23:010:23:05

think just follows you.

0:23:050:23:06

Istanbul is a city that you can't just leave

0:23:060:23:08

behind.

0:23:080:23:08

You carry Istanbul with you in your soul, in your writing.

0:23:080:23:12

On the other hand, interestingly, writing in English, I have

0:23:120:23:14

started...

0:23:140:23:15

I have been writing both in Turkish and in English and that

0:23:150:23:18

commune between the two languages has also been an interesting

0:23:180:23:21

experience for me.

0:23:210:23:22

I realise over time, if there is humour in my work,

0:23:220:23:25

satire, irony, I find it much easier to express that in English, whereas

0:23:250:23:29

melancholy, sorrow, I find it easier to express in Turkish.

0:23:290:23:31

But one other thing I noticed is by writing in

0:23:310:23:34

English, maybe taking a step back and looking at Turkey from that

0:23:340:23:38

cognitive distance, maybe I can see things a bit more closely when I

0:23:380:23:41

write in English, paradoxically, because there is no baggage, there

0:23:410:23:44

is no cultural baggage.

0:23:440:23:55

It frees me from my anxieties and I feel maybe

0:23:550:23:59

more free to write whatever I want to write at that moment in time.

0:23:590:24:05

Elif Shafak, we must end there, but thank you so much

0:24:050:24:08

for being on HARDtalk.

0:24:080:24:09

Thank you.

0:24:090:24:10

It is a pleasure.

0:24:100:24:11

Thank you very much indeed.

0:24:110:24:21

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