Vladimir Yakunin, Former President of Russian Railways HARDtalk

Now on BBC News it's time for HARDtalk

Welcome to Hardtalk, I'm Stephen Sacker.

For the 17 years Vladimir Putin has ruled Russia,

as President or Prime Minister, he hasn't done it alone.

He's been backed by a coterie of trusted associates,

connected through past ties in St Petersburg or in the KGB

or in business.

And one of Mr Putin's inner circle is my guest today.

Vladimir Yakunin ran Russian railways for a decade

and was a close Putin adviser.

So much so the US made him a target of sanctions

after the invasion of Crimea.

He left the railway two years ago.

Is he still a true believer in the Putin Project?

Vladimir Yakunin, welcome to HARDtalk.

I think it's fair to say, you, for a decade more,

were one of Vladimir Putin's closest associates and advisers.

In general terms, as you look at Putin's impact upon Russia,

would you say that you believe he is taking Russia in a very

positive direction?

Thank you for your introduction.

Listen, to tell the truth,

I never considered myself a voice to be in the position to be

considered an adviser of Mr Putin.

I was doing my business, I was CEO, I was the head

of the project, that is true, but I never was the adviser,

to either the Prime Minister or the President of

the Russian federation.

As far as your question is concerned, I suppose

that is the knowledge and I suppose the reference is to the poll

showing that people

in Russia believe that his execution of power was in favour

of development of Russia.

Interesting that...

Nobody is above criticism, of course, but...

Interesting that you point to the polls, of course his poll

ratings have been outstandingly high

for some time, 70%, 80%,

but one also can look at the facts on the ground,

exercising hard military power in the Middle East,

and, of course, in neighbouring Ukraine, in ways that

have isolated Russia, have brought international

sanctions upon Russia, thanks to its invasion of Crimea.

We also can talk to an economy which appears stalled,

stuck in low growth.

We can also talk about the sense in which Russian economic

development has in many ways stalled.

Now that isn't a record that many leaders would find easy to run on.

Listen, you know, everything can be judged in comparison.

The president is executing the huge military power,

and, you know, there is nothing special involving the execution

of the military power for the Russian president.

And from the point of view of any questions you ask,

I am open to discuss anything, but this is my assumption

for the situation.

In a sense it's where Russia sits in the world.

You know personally that the discussion to invade

and annex Crimea has attracted a great deal of

international concern.

And international sanctions.

And you yourself in 2014 were named as a close confindante

of Vladimir Putin, who is now subject to American

economic targeted sanctions.

Two points.

Firt point, it were not Russians, and it were not Russian troops,

who started the coup d'etat in Kiev.

It were not Russian politicians who were speaking to me,

it were European politicians and American politicians.

Can you imagine that here in London anybody from the Russian parliament

So from this point of view it is very delicate to say how

what is going on, how it was arranged.

And that is a tragedy from our perspective,

I am simple Russian citizen nowadays, but I do a lot of job

in Dialogue of Civilisation Research Institute.

You run a think tank with offices in Moscow and Berlin,

you have thought about the need to have a much greater level

of understanding between Russia and Europe in particular.

Europe is in the vanguard of imposing sanctions on Russia

right now.

Angela Merkel is probably the world leader who is most

concerned with sending a clear message to Vladimir Putin

that his current policies are not acceptable.

But, she wnats, together with President Sarkozy,

two first leaders to come to Moscow

to talk over the situation in Ukraine.

In Ukraine, we are living through the tragedy

of the civil war.

And, you know, that is of course only the dialogue, only

the understanding, not just sanctions or something like that,

to improve the situation.

That is my true belief.

It's interesting to put this into context, it is not just

the fact that the Russians have annex Crimea, your air force

is playing a crucial role propping up Bashar al-Assad in Syria,

but also, Russia is projecting all sorts of covert cyber -based

power, and soft power, around the world, sometimes

through media, sometimes through perhaps less public forums.

In a way, Vladimir Putin appears to be absolutely determined to play

a role, whether it be in the US presidential election,

the French or German elections, politics in Eastern Europe,

how grand is this man's ambitions?

Why you did not name, you know, the election in Great Britain?

the election in Great Britain?

Why Russian hackers not intervening in these very important elections?

No person who knows a little bit about information warfare

or something like that never believed that this huge amount

of events could be placed and could be started

just from one source, and this source is Russia.

This is not...

Are you denying all of the evidence, not least the absolutely categorical

statements of the FBI director, as was, James Comey,

that Russia was responsible for meddling in the US presidential

election, for hacking those Democratic Party e-mails,

and because of what happened was thereby a key player in that

campaign which resulted

in Donald Trump winning the White House?

Listen, listen, I did not see any sort of evidence,

Why should I believe FBI former director,

that he had obvious evidence?

Why it was not presented to the general public?

Listen, I suppose, maybe, it is a little more complex

than just one side, straightforward decision,

I suppose there are a lot of very reputable experts in the West

who are challenging these statements.

Because sometimes it is much easier to place this responsibility

on one's own failure on somebody else.

It's not going well, is it?

This idea of yours projecting

a different image of Russia to the West.

You can argue about the basis for the assumption,

frankly, in Washington, that Russia was behind the hack

of the Democratic Party,

but that is the perception in the United States

and across the western world, intelligence agencies,

police forces and the public.

Same can be said, and I can quote you, Angela Merkel,

German intelligence chief, saying there is no doubt that Russia

is intent on meddling in the German election.

This is how you are perceived.

Listen, Stephen, it was not Russians who eavesdropped your telephone,

why was she was not concerned with that?

It wasn't Russians.

Again, the development of IT technologies is extreme,

extreme important, you know, and valuable feature of contemporary

world but it is not that simple.

It's backfired.

Whatever the Russian intent was, and you can argue

about whether it's right to put it at Russia's door,

but the fact is, if you were hoping, and it seems you were,

because there were warm words, a direct quote from you,

welcoming Donald Trump, saying he was a man to be admired,

picked himself up twice from being knocked down in business.

Me?

Yes, this is a quote from you.

Trump, you said, is a smart guy, he lost two times everything

and he raised himself up again.

He is addressing some internal failings of the American people.

Where is the word of "admiring"?

I never said admiring.

That is a hugely admiring comment, is it not?

No, no, no.

The truth is, I never admired Trump,

even since I was in New York City.

I did not like the guy.

But my assumption was don't oversimplify the character

of this person.

And the fact of this person.

The bottom line is, what has come out, about the allegations

of Russian meddling in the United States,

through the hacking, the cybercrimes, etc,

etc, what has come out has made it actually more difficult than one

could ever have imagined for Donald Trump to have this

positive relationship with Vladimir Putin.

What we've seen is the Americans conduct an air strike on

Assad, which the Russians were very angry about.

The G-7 meeting, after which the chief economic

spokesman for Trump said, Russia can forget about us

advocating a lifting of sanctions, until Russia make specific

concilliatory moves on the Ukraine.

Donald Trump is not giving you any thing right now.

Absolutely correct, and personally, I never said anything to be

considered an expectation on the part of Donald Trump.

What again I said, that is a fact, he is elected president,

you know, he is bound by the system.

He is not a free man to do whatever he wants.

Congress, prosecutions, everything.

But the fact is, he was, during his campaign,

he was addressing some very essential issues of relations

with Russia, and he stated, listen, I would go to do something

to improve those relations, that is only his promise.

And he did not fulfil this promise.

Yet.

I do now want to switch now to Russia's internal affairs,

and the degree to which when Putin tries to project power,

for Russia, around the region and the world, he is hampered

and hindered by the profound

weakness of the Russian state internally.

Governance issues, corruption issues, economic backwardness

issues... Which drag down the Russian state.

Listen.

I suppose, in some part, I can follow your statements,

about changing of the political system, the weakness in the Russian

economy, and that is correct, but, you know, remember that the history

of Russia of today is only like, you know, 25 years, 26,

to be more precise.

And of course, for such a huge country, it is extremely difficult,

and I am not an advocate of the regime, I have no right

to talk on the part of the administration of Putin,

I am talking as a simple Russian who do know something

about international politics...

Or Internal politics.

Let's talk internal politics.

When you see the pictures on your TV screen, whether you are in Moscow

or in Berlin of Alexei Navalny

trying to organise an anti-corruption demonstration

across the country, he wants 100,000 cities to be involved,

arrested before he can leave his own apartment building.

The people who go on his demonstration are arrested as well,

impossible for them to voice his strong opinions,

do you believe that is a sensible way of approaching governance

in your country, or is it damaging?

Listen, you know, the answer is simple, whether you like the law

or not, law should be obeyed.

That is correct, for Great Britain,

for the United States of America, for Russia.

Remember Occupy Wall Street, what happened to those people.

Remember those protests against Trump.

But if you know, for example, the authorities

accepted the possibility of this demonstration, there

were no accidents here.

Why on earth somebody should not by the law,

I don't think there is anybody in the from the law.

The problem in Russia, dissent is often a matter of,

if not life and death, then certainly freedom or imprisonment.

Navalny, I have spoken with him recently,

he has constantly been harassed by the law.

Yet again he's facing trumped up charges, he may well be disallowed

from running, as he wants to, in the presidential

election in 2018.

I have been to his offices, they are constantly being raided.

I have interviewed Gary Kasparov many times, he can no longer live

in Russia, he says it's not safe for him.

This is the reality of the Russia that you are defending.

I cannot say anything about personal feelings for Gary Kasparov,

for example, but what I can say, I can say, you know,

he did not say anything about his attempt to be the mayor

of Moscow, how it happened.

Who supported him.

He is a freeman.

He is flying here, he has meetings with you.

But, any regime does not like opponents.

He met me in his office, in Moscow, and office constantly raided

by the police forces, who appear to believe

Listen, I don't say it is unacceptable because by the fact

that it was, you know, the Russian president,

again, I am not his advocate, I am not suspecting who is promoting

the idea of fighting corruption, but, I do not know all the facts

about the office...

You do know plenty about Alexei Navalny,

because it was personal between you two, he highlighted

the extravagant estate that you had purchased outside Moscow,

for many millions of rubles.

He showed pictures of it, which I've seen, the elaborate,

the housing, the outhouses, court, and apparently,

is it true, there was a special room for all of the furs that

you were storing inside?

This is funny story, just invention.

If you are in Moscow...

The property was yours, was it not.

I invite you to this property.

I invite you to this property to find this small storage

for the furs, you would not find, but you may find some furs

from Siberia, etc, etc.

How much is it worth, that vast mansion?

How much is it worth?

I cannot say for sure, but for sure...

Many millions of US dollars.

But I was earning yearly, very substantial amounts of money.

It's interesting that you say that, because in 2014, the government

demanded all CEOs, bosses of state companies, because to go public

with their income and assets, you refused for some time,

and then when you finally exceeded to their request,

you declare that your income, I believe, was in the range of 61

to 83,000 US dollars a month.

No way was that an income that could have bought you the vast

estate that I'm talking about.

Listen, listen, I have on my account, in Petra bank,

all the monies, not all the monies, because I have spent them,

Berry substantial amount of monies.

They were my payments, my bonuses, that I was getting as the CEO

of the state company.

This is true, the tax authorities know about it and they have it,

no problem with that.

And nobody challenges.

There clearly was a problem, because if we get to the heart

of it, I have described you as a very close associate

of Vladimir Putin.

Which is not quite correct.

It is, you go back to St Petersburg days and KGB days.

I know you didn't know him so well in the KGB days.

And what's wrong with that?

That is the story of many of his closest associates,

so it's no surprise.

No problem.

but what I'm getting too is this: In 2015 you lost your job

at the head of state railways.

I resigned, better to say.

Well, it's complicated, some in Russia believe

Vladimir Putin decided...

Let them believe.

The reason why it seems you became a problem

was because it was publicised, and again, I think this might be

something to do with Alexei Navalny, it became clear that your own son,

your own son...

Don't make him a hero, knee is not so powerful

to make problems.

Your own son lives in a very expensive house in London,

and actually took British citizenship...

What do you mean by very expensive house?

Worth many millions of English pounds.

Exactly.

Do you know the sum?

I believe it was almost exactly ?5 million.

That is a very huge sum of money.

Yes.

Indeed.

And it was bought with some credit.

Is this something very different from the others living here?

Probably different from the way that most people live,

but the problem is not about the vast property Empire,

it is about the British passport.

Russia today is full of official noise about how the West

is against Russia, how the West is trying to undermine and destroy

Russia, and your own son was seen to be taking British citizenship.

That, in Russia, even for Mr Putin, it seems, put you in a place

where he did not want to associate with you any more.

No, I never made any secrets that my son was living here.

And, you know, because of the special ruling here and the law,

he obtained passport, and properly informed

the authorities about that.

And you know, not correct, saying that all Russians are aware

of that, "the bad West is coming to hurt Russia", etc.

Isn't that the message that they get from the Kremlin?

No, I don't think so.

And this is not true that Russians are so afraid of the West.

But, what my point is, again, we cannot understand each other,

we can see the history differently, but the only way to overcome

differences, that is to talk.

On this question of economic governance and corruption,

I can cite you Transparency International report which put

Russia so far down the league table of corruption that Malawi,

Sierra Leone, these are countries that are actually less corrupt,

according to them, than Russia is today.

The Heritage Foundation saying that private sector in Russia

is so constrained by the encroachment of the state

and the failure to defend the rule of law that foreign direct

investment, for example, is a huge risk in Russia today.

All of these different ways in which Putin's Russia

is failing its people.

Listen, again, you know, we can name "Putin's Russia"

is a country with the Duma, with the Senate, with the president.

We are a presidential republic.

Let's be clear, what really happens in Russian today is Vladimir Putin

and his associates in the Kremlin and what they say and do.

I don't think so, I don't think so.

Really?

Yes, and why, I can explain you.

If he is the only ruler of the country, then I suppose

it is not just possible for one person to control huge territory,

huge quantity of the people.

All different aspects.

70% of GDP, of revenues, the proportion of GDP,

70% come from state owned enterprises.

That gives you a sense, an indication, of the way

Russia is run.

This is correct, that is one of the setbacks of the structure

of the Russian economy.

But on the other hand, what we have, we are trying to exploit.

Yes, oil, gas.

But, you know, recently, I just read the draft

of the new legislation in the United States of America,

what they are to prevent the construction, stating,

we should impose sanctions on Russia.

For what reason?

What is wrong about trade, what is wrong about trade and oil?

I don't think anything is wrong.

About corruption, sometimes, yes, we witnessed the facts of this

kind of corruption.

But sometimes, to me, to myself, you know,

sometimes, that is kind of the stories to be

invented and presented.

Listen, we have huge country, a lot of people, people

who are creating new jobs, people creating new businesses,

people creating new ports, new railways, by the way!

All of them, corrupt?

It is funny, this is not true.

A final point before we finished, I wonder whether you believe that

Putinism the way that Vladimir Putin has governed and created

a particular form of governance in Russia, will that outlast

the man himself?

Or, do you believe that Russia will fundamentally change when Putin

leaves the Kremlin?

I suppose this is not a question of leaving one person in the Kremlin

or not, it is a fundamental question of the titanic changes we observe

in the world.

Russia is not excluded.

Today I've read an article in the latest issue

of the Economist, which stated, the end of neoliberalism consensus.

So, you know, that is true, to say that Russia is developing,

the world is developing.

And the challenges should occur for sure, but those challenges

should not impose from the outside.

Are you saying you believe in the future Russia will not look

more like the West but maybe the West will look more like Russia?

Congregation, correct.

It is not my turn to be invented, that is the long-standing theory

of congregation between different systems.

Interesting idea, interesting words.

Vladimir Yakunin, thank you so much for being on our show.

Thank you very much.

Good morning.

It was a hot, dry and sunny weekend for many of us.