Moshe Ya'alon - Israeli Minister of Defence (2013-2016) HARDtalk

Now on BBC News, it's time for HARDtalk.

Welcome to HARDtalk I'm Stephen Sackur. On the face of it, Israel

has achieved a form of stability, led by the same man for eight years,

locked in a state of non- adjudication with the Palestinians

and confident in strong support from Washington. But the deeper, and

cracks appear. Prime Minister Netanyahu is under investigation.

Israeli society seems uneasy with itself. My guess is Moshe Ya'alon,

former Israeli defence Minister, turned harsh critic. How solid is

Israel's unity? Moshe Ya'alon, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you for

having me. Israel has marked 50 years since the victory in the six

Day War. But you seem to feel, right now, there are very serious

questions about the direction Israel is going, and about national

cohesion. Why are you so worried? From the security point of view, we

enjoy today a relatively calm situation, security wise. This is a

result of the Six Day War, which was the peak of the ideal of our

coalition. Since then, at the idea of our coalition, this ideology has

been declined. So it is not an Exocet a security threat that you

feel is most concerning to Israel today? Yes, but you know, anyhow,

Israel enjoys a vibrant democracy. On the one hand, it is shameful that

Netanyahu is the Prime Minister, these are to be investigated because

of allegations of corruption. One Prime Minister is in jail. That is

the bad news. The good news is that we have a vibrant society. We have

law enforcement that is independent, as we can see it. So it is an

internal struggle about... But it is not just about Netanyahu. You said

not long ago, and this caused a stir in Israel. You said to your sorrow,

extremist and dangerous elements had taken over Israel, and in

particular, the Likud party, and threatening to hurt residents. There

is a powerful words. It is. And I had a lot of fights before resigning

from the government because of certain plants are they did not

like. Extremism? Do you see that in your own government that you search

for seven years? It is a vibrant society. -- that you serve it. I

have the culpability and a responsibility to criticise the

government. You have also the responsibility to be clear about

what you mean. I want you to be clear about the extremism that you

see inside the Israeli government. I found too many politicians

generating hatred against someone. Against leftists, the media, or the

Supreme Court. It is a challenge. And we had to deal with it. And I

believe we are able to. Isaac Herzog, now a member of the Zionist

Union, he coined an extraordinary word calling at the fascistisation

under Janette Howell. -- under Netanyahu. It does your agreeing

with him. I am worried about it. You would use that phrase,

fascistisation? In certain places, yes. Some politicians are going this

way. This is not the vast majority of politicians. But unfortunately,

it is not stopped by the Prime Minister. That is why I dispute with

him. I am very puzzled as to how you can sit in Cabinet as Deputy Premier

for three or four years, and then as Defence Secretary, the senior

security post in the Cabinet, for what? More than three years, serving

as a loyal ally of Benjamin Netanyahu, and the fallout with him

after seven years of service, and come out saying that he is fostering

extremism, and possibly the fascistisation of Israel. That is

extraordinary! It was not the case until the 2015 elections. Let's put

it this way. It certainly changed, overnight? The Likud Party has

changed. I joined it when the rule of law was above all. And this has

been changed. Certainly, there are many politicians they could not win

the primaries of the Likud Party. So it is a challenge. But I believe the

Israeli society can deal with it. We will get to the bigger strategic

picture and a moment. But let's stick to the internal politics of

Benjamin Netanyahu, the Likud Party, and you have been a critic now, but

also you have been involve a long time. How can you say that beyond

doubt Benjamin Netanyahu is guilty of these allegations that he denies?

Some of these concerned his behaviour and others convey the

behaviour of others, it is legally involving defence contracts, and

summaries. You say it you have no doubts that it is not indicted, you

say you will go on a speaking tour and tell all. -- and submarines.

What is it that you know that the rest of Israel does not? I am not

into elaborate. It is under investigation. I do want to harm the

process. -- I am not going to elaborate. But I did say that I am

sure that in the end, people should be indicted. If not, then I will go

publicly to share all my information, all I know about the

situation with the people of Israel. People do not change their spots, do

they? Use a Benjamin Netanyahu somehow slipped in 2015, around the

time of the election. You have Sir Tim, by then, for what? Six years...

You can't tell me that the main union for six years suddenly became

somebody completely different after the election. -- you have served

him. I did not believe that he would be involved in corruption affairs. I

did not believe it. And he denies it. And I was surprised. It happened

at the start of 2016, and I believe this is an internal issue that law

enforcement will deal with properly. Benjamin Netanyahu says that you are

just desperate to launch own political career. Fregley, a career

that right now looks like it is struggling. So he said it. --

frankly. Let's wait and see the consequences of the investigations.

Is this not about Netanyahu, but something corrosive at the heart of

the Israeli state that says something about is ready values,

today? It is in politics. It is not part of a huge problem in Israeli

society. But the political system has been corrupted. Politicians,

many feel, have been corrupted. Not all are corrupt. But this is also

not all society. I had the opportunity to meet the young

generation in Israel, highly motivated and educated. They are

looking for leadership, of course. They are frustrated with the current

situation. They don't trust the leadership. It is not just about

money and corruption in politics, though, is it? It is that that is

connected to the very biggest of pictures, for example, Israel's

continued occupation, after 50 years, of the West Bank. And what

that does to the Israeli psyche, and two young Israelis, in particular.

Is a matter of choice. I don't see at alternative for the fact that we

have two lakh to deal with the Palestinian challenge. On the one

hand, I don't see any chance for a final settlement with the

Palestinians. -- we have to deal with. I was exposed to the details

when I became head of intelligence. I supported Oslo. When I was told by

our leaders at the time, in 1983 - 1995, it might bring about peace and

tranquillity. As somebody who has expressed too many wars, a

supporter. When I saw the details, as head of intelligence, I was

shocked. He continued to believe, and I lived in Israel at the time,

and remember it well. He said Israel has no choice. We said we have to

make peace with our enemies. There is no alternative. That is why I

agreed with him when he tried it. But he failed. And I know his way

very well. And in his last speech, he delivered a speech ringing the

second half of Oslo. He delivered a speech in October 19 85. He said a

pleasant's authority should be less of a state. When I go to go back to

1967 lines, and he knew he was talking about. He was the chief of

general staff in the six Day War. And he said that Israeli sovereignty

should be empowered on the blocks and classes. He never gave up on the

2-state solution? You have to read his speech. He tried these two is --

he tried the 2-state solution. It is not as though the 2-state solution.

Another chip of the Israeli defence Forces, another Prime Minister, said

this government, tell him that the Netanyahu government, is putting the

country on the path to become an apartheid state. And it should be

brought down if it fails to change course. You need to listen to what I

think about the Israel Palestine conflict. I believe there is a

chance to reach a final settlement. Not because of us. We tried it many

times. Many rejected the proposal. Palestinian leaders rejected any

partition led proposal in the land of Israel. Talking about the

Palestinian presence in the West Bank. I do believe there is a

settlement, not because of not because of us, because of them. You

have to recognise... As Israel is, do you not have a responsibility to

keep searching anti- working for a solution? -- as Israelis. Or suffer

the consequences? I don't find settlement under those. And then to

have little independence. To have their own parliament and government.

As a president and so forth. I don't hold tours... Because they knew that

I was going to talk to you today, I have done some research about your

post as defence minister. But what happened? A series of reports cross

your desk from UNICEF in 2013, saying the maltreatment of children

in the West Bank appears to be white spread, systematic, and

institutionalise. Human Rights Watch, a detailed report about

Israeli forces using unnecessary force to detain and arrest young

Palestinians, throwing grenades at them, beating them in custody. These

reports cross your desk, the work of your idea. This is what occupation

means. Do we have a choice? I prefer not to

have a checkpoint. I prefer not to go and search for terrorists and

weapons. Their choice was instead of peace, more than 1000 casualties on

the Gaza Strip. CROSSTALK

Your government, that is the Netanyahu government, which is until

2016 decided not to negotiate with the Palestinian Authority.

No, not at all! You will write the history. In the 14 we were engaged

in nine months led by Secretary of State John Kerry. At the end of this

nine months we were asked by Secretary Kerry to continue the

negotiations according to a certain American document - terms of

reference. We said yes, although we had reservations which we said we

would discuss around the table. Abbas, did he pay any price for it?

You are playing a tit for tat game as to who was responsible for the

breakdown in talks. I am trying to look at the morals, values cohesion

of an Israeli society that has prided itself on having the very

best of humane values. I am putting it to you, if I listen to Israeli

soldiers who have served the occupation, like Breaking the

Silence, who are opposed to the occupation, former IDF soldiers,

this is the moral consequence of the prolonged occupation of the

Palestinian people - that is the corruption of young Israelis who

served that occupation. It is a choice to allow the Palestinians to

have Hamas as well, like in the Gaza Strip? We are not deployed any more

in Gaza! You have to believe in the values of your state. We keep the

values! I kept the values! In 2002 you described the Palestinian people

as a cancer. I didn't do it. The Israeli media reported it. It

doesn't mean that I set it. I didn't say it. You pick certain quotations.

Did you see them for claiming you described the Palestinian people as,

I am quoting directly, like a cancer? Didn't say that. Invisible

but existential threat. Know, something very different but

nevertheless, you know... How would you have failed if a Palestinian

leader described the Jewish people as a cancer? I didn't do it! You are

just accusing... I have denied... You are accusing the Israeli media

of fabricating lies? There are so many misquotations. I know what I

believe in. I wish to have full separation with the Palestinians.

What did we have after Oslo? More than 1000 casualties after bombing

attacks. What about after Gaza? This is the reality. What is the choice,

to leave the West Bank for Palestinian Jihad and Daesh.

President Trump says he is going to fix the Middle East problem. He said

the other day, we will get it done. His son-in-law Jared Kushner has

been sent to negotiate. He himself has seen Netanyahu and Abbas. He

says Abbas is committed to peace. Is the US president Ron, misguided? No,

he now says different things about the reality on the ground. I believe

this administration is more realistic regarding the situation on

the ground. First of all they tried to convince Abbas not to promote

terror by paying salaries to terrorists or the families of

jihadists and so forth. Is it wise for Donald Trump to put a great deal

of political credibility and capital on the idea that he can make peace

between Israel and the Palestinians? Let's try... So many presidents and

Secretary of States try. Israeli Prime Minister is try to solve it.

And they fail, why? Because the gap is huge. You can talk about peace.

He is reluctant to recognise our right to exist as a nationstate as a

Jewish people in any boundaries. Kenny Britt the gap? We have to

manage the problem from the bottom-up -- you bridge the gap? If

I may say so, you sound just like Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.

You spend the first part of the interview saying he was no longer

qualified to be Israeli Prime Minister. You clearly won his job.

Your positions on the key elements of this, the fact you won't talk

about a two state solution, you won't talk about land for peace, you

are just like Benjamin Netanyahu! First of all he, like myself,

regarding the strategic issues, we didn't dispute it, whether Iran,

what should be done in the region and this situation in the Middle

East, or with regard to the Palestinian challenge. Your

strategic vision is the same as Netanyahu's? Almost, yes. That will

hardly persuade the public to shift from him to you. What does it mean

if we agree about it? This is reality. I have 37 years of military

experience, seven years in government experience. We don't have

a two-state solution. Mahmoud Abbas escape from President Obama's

proposal in 2014, he got away from the proposal in 2008, this is the

reality. You've just been speaking at a big conference in London of The

centre for Policy Studies security conference, and if we look in

strategic terms, Israel has an opportunity, there are fractures and

divisions in the Arab world, much of it is simplistic to put it as Sunni

Shia, but there is an element of it, pragmatic leaders in the Sunni Arab

world as a Saudi Arabia, let's say Jordan, Egypt, who may well be

interested in a long-term alliance of sorts with Israel against Iran if

Israel were prepared to make concessions on the Palestinian

issue, which would let the Arabs in. But you are not ready to do that,

are you? No, this is not the case, and I will tell you - I was in

government when we tried to bring in regional parties, the Sunni Arab

camp, to call operate on any kind of regional settlement in the region.

First of all, we are on the same boat today. Those who still use the

terms the Israeli - Arab conflict are irrelevant because we share the

common enemies, Iran, ISIS, Al-Qaeda. Arabs are not going to buy

that as long as you continue to refuse to contemplate a two-state

solution. We don't refuse! And give the Palestinians a dream of

statehood. I will tell you what happened with them. We tried to

convince them to come in and generate these kind of political

process. They rejected it. Why? The Palestinian issue is not in the

first priority. There are the other challenges, Iran is the main

challenge. It is about the Shia-Sunni conflict, global jihad

and so forth. When we told them to come into the process, and they

rejected to come in. Do you know that the only Sunni party today

ready to spend money on the Palestinian issue is Qatar? The

Saudis didn't spend a dollar. The Egyptians you can talk with...

Seriously, they are not ready to invest in the Palestinian issue! It

might be easy if Trump can convince them and we would be more than

happy... You don't see a watershed moment of diplomatic opportunity for

Israel. What you see is more of the same. More of the status quo. I will

ask you a final question. What is your vision of where Israel is a

generation from now, 25 years from now? With the political separation

which is a positive outcome of Oslo, I am not afraid for democracy. The

Gazans are not going to vote in the Canasta to and I don't want a

bilateral state so Palestinians who live in the West Bank... They enjoy

their own political independence, they don't have to vote to the

Knesset. This is the reality on the ground today. We should not keep it

as the status quo and improve it from the bottom up. It is going to

fail anyhow if the Palestinians will go on educating their generation to

hate Jews and kids from kindergarten are educated to wear its close it is

to kill us. This is the main point. And we have to end it there. Moshe

Ya'alon, I thank you for being on HARDtalk thank you.