04/07/2017 HARDtalk

Welcome to HARDtalk, I'm Stephen Sackur.

Nigeria's stability and unity is threatened by internal tensions,

conflict and corruption, from the Boko Haram insurgency

in the north to violent militancy in the south and separatist

Amid all this turmoil, how effective in securing the country as the

Nigerian army? My guest is army chief,

Lieutenant General Tukur Yusuf By his force is playing a

constructive or destructive role as Nigeria tries to keep a lid on its

problems -- are his forces? General Tukur Yusuf Buratai,

welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you, Stephen. A couple of

years ago your President, new president, set you a clear mission

to eradicate Boko Haram. He said it could be done within months. It

would be fair to say, would it not, that you have failed in that

mission? We have not failed. We have achieved that particular mandate, as

at that time. We were... Appointed on the 10th of July, and on the day

of our decoration, we were given that mandate to end Boko Haram by

the end of December of 2015. And we set out to work. And... Yes, well,

I'm going to stop you and try to make this as as simple as possible.

As you say, by December 2015 there were claims coming from both the

military and from the presidency that Iran had been eliminated. At

those claims, as we have seen over the last 18 months, were completely

wrong. No, no. Eliminated... I don't think anybody had said Boko Haram

has been eliminated. We know terrorism globally is... Well,

forgive me, I am looking at a direct quote, President Buhari, December

2015, the insurgency has been technically defeated. So it doesn't

mean eliminated. And a military official, we can beat our chest and

decisively say we have dealt with Boko Haram. Yes. Well, come on,

let's be clear. You haven't dealt with Boko Haram. I don't know how

many details only to give you a recent incidents. Let's look at this

perspective. Terrorism is something that, you know, is resilient, all

right? Today we have gained tremendously. Tremendous successes

have been achieved. Take for example, at the time we were

appointed, take for example Borno state, where terrorism incidents is

most Boko Haram terrorists. How many local areas were under their

control? Where there are not any presence of government authority in

that location. But it is not just a question of how many square miles of

territory that you have recovered. It is also a question of whether the

people of that particular region of your country are still being

terrorised. I've just been looking at the figures. Just a couple of

months ago, 18 girls were abducted from close to the Cameroon border, a

village. Newsweek magazine of Nigeria has calculator they think

within the first six months of this year there were 48 different Boko

Haram attacks. You may have taken a lot of territory back, but you

haven't managed to end the reign of terror. Well, look at what we have

on the ground. Before May 2015, the Boko Haram were even in Abuja. They

were Ian Kano. They had penetrated into the south, we had to stop them.

And for the past years, we have not had attacks in Abuja, or Kano, or

any other places. Even closer, where there were several attacks, we never

had it. Now they are all concentrated within certain areas in

Borno state. But the UN agencies say that's still the scale of the

insecurity is such that the displaced peoples cannot come back.

We know that the real threat of hunger, malnutrition and famine

exists, and in security is a huge part of that. So you, as the head of

the army, still, surely, have to accept that, far from being

complete, your mission has barely begun. Well, that is where we now

look at the reconstruction aspect. And we have to see the return of the

civil Administration, the return of the law and order agencies, the

police, all right. And this is what we are working at. If you talk in

terms of military action, military action, militarily, Boko Haram have

been defeated. One of the element of restoring stability, peace and order

to the region most affected by Boko Haram is winning the trust of the

ordinary people. Yes. How can the local bee will be confident when, as

Amnesty International reported in their most recent report in February

this year, the military is arbitrarily arresting thousands of

young men, women and children, based simply on profiling, they say. They

are being put into detention facilities like the barracks in

Maiduguri, I'm quoting amnesty, forgive me, but it is quite long.

The cells are crowded, disease, starvation was rife, at least 240

detainees died during the last year. Bodies were secretly buried in

Maiduguri Cemetery by the Borno state environmental protection

agency. That is a scandal. It is shocking, and how can you possibly

defended? Well, it is interesting. But let me tell you, we have been

vindicated. The special enquiry that was set up, you know, by the army,

headed by independent personality, a retired general, has clearly stated

that whatever comes out of... You know, within the detention

facilities, these are things that are likely to, are bound to happen

everywhere. And you look at... Now with this outbreak of diseases. The

board of enquiry was headed up I retired general. President Buhari

promised many months ago that there would be an independent

investigation. There has been no independent investigation. Well,

this is still in the process. It is a promise, I believe it will be

kept. Why has there not been an independent investigation? I cannot

give that reason. But if you want the confidence of the people of

Borno state, and the other parts of your country, surely the most basic

thing is to hold your own forces to account. When we are holding them

accountable, we have a standing, as far as the military operations are

concerned, we have a standing court-martial which is responsible

for trying any of our offices that have been found wanting in following

military justice system. And some of them have been, you know, convicted

of the violation of some other crimes. Amnesty named nine

individuals, offices, who they say should face the most serious

investigation and criminal indictment. How many of those nine

are still serving today in your forces? Well, I don't know of any of

those nine, precisely. Is the answer that all of them are still serving?

You haven't actually remove any of them. The point is, as far as we are

concerned, we have stated the case against them. All right? And the

enquiry had done its work and found out that those were not directly

links. The internal, but to be honest I am less on Dominic

interested in your internal investigation, I am interested in

the external investigation which has not happened. That one was that of

the allegations have not been substantiated. Those are mere

allegations, and they have been substantiated. They were told to the

officers. Let me ask you your reaction to a report just issued by

the United States government which says that there is evidence, this is

in their trafficking in Persons report, that they put out every

year, evidence that the Nigerian army has been exploiting children,

quote, using children as young as 12 years old in support roles. Is that

true? Well, it is not true. If you ask me directly in my personal

capacity, ... Well, I am asking you as head of the army, not in your

personal capacity. OK, you see, there are competitions in such

issues. How do you determine a child who is 12 years? I am not saying we

are employing a child to be used as, you know, in civilian duties... You

should simply not be playing children. We are not, I am saying,

we are not. All right, we are not. But the United States as you are, I

could go on. There are more. The Nigerian Security Council has

continued to detain and arrest children for alleged association

with Boko Haram. So not only are you employing children in support roles,

which the US says is completely wrong, you are also consistently and

systematically detaining and arresting children. You see, there

are clear lines, OK? We have what we refer to the international

humanitarian law, the law of armed conflicts, OK? We very much know

these rules. The best international practices. There is no way the

Nigerian army will pick a child and get him employed and serve anywhere.

This is an allegation. Yes, the United States is a partner and an

ally, but they during the Obama administration stopped selling new

weapons because of all of these allegations of abuses by your

security forces. Does it not trouble you... In the same Amnesty

International report, that they are relying on, in the same amnesty

report, they made a recommendation to the Obama administration, that

certain weapons and so on should not be sold to the Nigerian government.

But you see, when you talk of terrorism, it's a responsibility at

a global level, every nation should be responsible to see that this

terrorism is defeated globally. So if you... Let me ask you, if I may,

I have dealt with some of the allegations of abuses against your

forces. There is one particular story which grab attention, a huge

amount of Simba the other time, 2013. The Chibok school was raided

by Boko Haram militants. They took away more than 200 schoolgirls. Ever

since there has been a huge focus on getting those girls back. Now, in

the recent past we saw, I believe, 82 were freed. First of all, what

deal did you do to get those 82 girls back? As far as the release of

those 82 Chibok girls are concerned, we performed our role, where we

provided the safe passage, you know, for those that have been released.

Did you release Boko Haram militants in return? I did not release, but

the government... It is a government decision, it is not an army

responsibility. Were you aware that five senior militants, Boko Haram

fighters, were released from prison? That is the report, OK? That is the

report. As a military man, what message you believe that sends the

Boko Haram? Astra that is a military decision,

not a political decision. In the best interests of the country, did

the government bail, yes. That is the best course. Do you think it was

regrettable? Personally, I don't think... It has its own advantage.

There are probably some other disadvantages but it does have

advantages. The message is quite clear to Boko Haram leadership, that

if they can take more schoolgirls, more innocent civilians and demand

in return for their release, the release of people in your

presence... That is, given the chance to do that, that is if they

are given the chance. I don't believe they would have that chance

to have mass abductions as they were doing before. Let us talk about one

other region where there has been instability. The Niger Delta. We

have seen militants loosely coalesced around a group called

MIND. It is causing real instability. There was a government

programme to buy out some of those militant leaders. I think it's cost

the government will ever $100 million in various forms of

financial recompense to some of the militants themselves. It hasn't

worked, has it? Well, I believe it has worked. Why did oil production

fall by one third in 2016? There are criminal activities by certain

individuals... The same sort of attacks on oil installations that

were supposed to be ended by all this compensation money. Well, arm,

that is why you still have a lot of criminal activities, not only in the

Niger Delta. For all of your insurances, both you as a military

man, assurances that you are on top of the security situation. , the

truth on the ground is that you are not. We are, we are, we are in firm

control. Security, when you look at it, globally, this is something you

continue to tackle as it arises. You continue to tackle. We can wake up

and wish that all security challenges are gone and even here in

the UK, other parts of the world will continue to have these

challenges. Go to other parts of your up and so on, you have those

challenges. We continue to face these traits and address them as

they arise. I talked, from the beginning of this interview, about

the degree of trust and confidence Nigerians have in the military on

the ground and we talked about different regions and URS shoring me

that your men are doing the best in difficult circumstances but one of

the overarching problems Nigeria faces and I imagine you would agree,

is corruption. A recent report from Transparency International says

Nigerian military officers as well as politicians, have been enriching

themselves by diverging money that was supposed to go to the security

forces fight against terror. Some cases are already in court. Some are

still being investigated. I think the courts will handle them

appropriately and the investigating agencies will also go to that,

investigators much as possible. So is head of the army, you tolerate

the fact that still, today, according to Transparency

International, there are ghost soldiers on your payroll who are

being fictitious we created by senior officers while pocketing

their salaries. It's not true. Since the advent of this administration,

they have introduced what they call an integrated personnel pay system,

and we have made our payrolls computerised. Everyone with

biometrics, we did that long ago, in 2013, around 2013. Military pay in

Nigeria is not that high, is it? One is relative also. In US dollar

terms, what do you earn roughly? And I ask this in the spirit of

transparency because Mr Buhari another politicians... I am paid by

the government, so the right question should go to the

government... But you are public official on a salary. How come then

that you yourself own to substantial properties in Dubai? This is not

true, it is all fake. They are in the name of your wife that they are

your family properties. It is not true. Listen, listen, substantial

property. What is substantial property? This is an investment.

It's not true. They are worth well over $1 million US. It's not true.

How much are they work? Because the anti-corruption campaign in your

country says it is an outrage that you have these properties. There is

no way you can afford these assets from your salary so Nigerians want

to know where you get the money? It is a stereotype. My family is into

other businesses. They do their own private businesses. We are

investing. The family has not even into those properties. On the

frontline, there soldiers working for you, you are the commander of

the Nigerian army. They want pitiful wages and according to various

different independent analyses, not least from the United States, they

are very poorly resourced and poorly armed in the fight against Boko

Haram. How would they feel learning that you and your family owned these

properties in Dubai? Which type of property? You know very well. The

code of conduct bureau actually ran an investigation into your

properties and in the end, they said it was OK, you declared the assets

but don't tell me you don't know about them. The type of property we

are talking is not the one that you think, that most people are saying.

It is not a house. It is a timeshare property that you invest in two. The

question remains, how do you think your guys on the front line who are

poorly resourced... When was it bought into? These properties? It is

your property. As far back as 2013. People are using these properties

today. When the human rights lawyer says that you should resign because

your explanation of where you got the money bomb is... It's my family.

OK. Final question. We have catalogued the different challenges

your security forces face and your political leadership. One of the

problems is that your president is very seriously ill. I believe he is

still here in London although the Nigerian people seem confused about

where he is and what his condition is. Can you as head of the army tell

me what is going on? This is a private issue. I don't have any

comment on that. But earlier this year, you did warn anyone, either in

the military or anywhere else, who was thinking of using this period of

instability to sort of launch a leadership bid or play politics

within the military. You want them off it. You are clearly worried that

their readers, at the moment, a bit of a vacuum at the top. There is no

vacuum. Sort of an empty warning. In terms of what transpired before this

Administration came on board. Why did you issue that warning? Did you

sensed there were some in the Armed Forces who might be pursuing

political ambitions? It is good once in a while to tell officers that

there are bounds that we must remain within, constitutional boundaries

that we have been assigned. General, just a final question. How long can

this situation continued where Nigeria's president is not able to

be in the country and certainly not able to offer the country

leadership? He is physically unable. There are constitutional provisions.

There is never a vacuum. What has happened, we have an -- we have an

active president. Events are happening, he will get stronger and

go back home, that is the only way. There is never a vacuum and they

should be no cause for concern. General Buratai, I thank you very

much for being on HARDtalk. You're welcome, Stephen.