Ivanna Klympush-Tsintsadze, Vice Prime Minister for European Integration, Ukraine HARDtalk


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Welcome to HARDtalk, with me, Zeinab Badawi. Conflict in eastern Ukraine

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between the two sides has worsened. Both sides have been accused of

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violating the Minsk agreement. And talk of a warmer relationship

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between Moscow and Washington says. Trump became president has led to

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worries in Ukraine that its interests are being sidelined. My

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guest is Ivanna Klympush-Tsintsadze, Ukraine's buys prominence of the

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European integration. Is her country now out in the cold? Vice premier

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Stirk Ivanna Klympush-Tsintsadze, welcome to HARDtalk Thank you for

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having me here. Donald Trump has said of Vladimir Putin that they

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would probably get along. He said -- is a election is properly bad news

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to Ukraine. Since his election, we have only had supportive messages

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from the US administration and we have had a very clear signal from

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Donald Trump himself during his recent meeting with the president of

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Ukraine, Petro Poroshenko, when he confirmed the willingness to

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continue sanctions with regard to Russian aggression against the

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Ukraine and to support further Ukrainian reforms, and to make sure

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that America is staying engaged in trying to sort out the conflict that

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we are finding ourselves as a victim. So nothing but words of

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support? It flies in the face of what the former Ambassador to Russia

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said on Twitter about the election night was that the biggest loser in

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the world that night was Ukraine. Ukraine's Foreign Minister said for

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the future of our world and our children, a better relationship with

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the United States and Russia is something we should all wish for.

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But that relationship must not come at the expense of Ukraine. There are

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worries. I totally subscribe to that. They have been worries,

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especially to any campaign, and that is why I have deliberately said

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since the inauguration of the new president, that is exactly the more

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solid understanding of the future relationship between the UK in and

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the US, and the political stance of the US has been just getting around.

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-- between Ukraine and the US. That is what we have heard from the state

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secretary, the secretary from a defence -- the secretary of defence,

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and we suppose that free, independent, and sovereign Ukraine

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is in the national interests of the US, and in the national interests of

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all the European and Nato countries, as well. So you say that there is

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the support, but we hear things, for instance, you mention sanctions,

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which are in place on Russia. Because of its annexation of Crimea

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in 2014, and the continuing conflict in eastern Ukraine. They are said to

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be supporting separatist breakaway rebels. Mike Pence has said if we

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have opportunities to work together with Russia, I think Donald Trump is

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looking for an opportunity to begin the relationship a new. There have

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been hints from Washington that deals can be made on sanctions in

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exchange for security cooperation with Russia. We do hope that

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bipartisan support that we receive in the American congress is not

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going to lead to any possible compromises with the Russian

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Federation a distance of Ukraine, as well as what we hear from the

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representatives of the administration in the latest months.

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That is exactly also providing us with belief that this will not

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happen at the expense of the Ukraine. It sounds like you are

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worried. I do not think so. We have received all the confirmations of

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continued policy from the previous administration, right now, carried

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onto the new administration. The Obama administration was seen as

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less freely to Russia than the current one. So when President Petro

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Poroshenko of Ukraine met with Donald Trump a few weeks ago, it was

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totally reassured on all accounts, was he, your President? That is

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exactly no -- that is exacted what I know from my colleagues who were at

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the meeting. What did he say about Premier, for instance? My

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understanding is that America is going to continue for a

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nonrecognition policy of the nonlegal annexation of Crimea. --

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say about Crimea. We also heard from the US ambassador at the United

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Nations, Nikki Haley, as well. So I think all the signals a point in the

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same direction. I think that we getting more and more information on

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what is really going on on the ground in the Ukraine, that helps to

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formulate the position that would be for the benefit of the Ukraine, and

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for the benefit of free and democratic world, where the US is

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the main actor. You say the US is the main actor. Beretts additional

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concerns about the that the United States is retreating. Your own

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former acting president said earlier this year, talking that US

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withdrawal from global leadership. He said he expected further

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destabilisation in Eastern Europe. He is not the only one who is saying

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that. We have Russia and China, which President Xi Jinping said will

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be the defining factor in the next ten years in the world. I think it

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is time right now to get back to solidarity between the European

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nations and the US, and other transatlantic partners, like Japan

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or Canada, for that matter, that they would consolidate their efforts

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in actually making sure that whatever values that have been built

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on, they continued through in the world. The point I have said to you,

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is are you worried that a withdrawal of America, whereby you seem Russia

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and China filling the back room, that again is bad news to you. These

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make the United States is not going to withdraw with all the thinking

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that it has to do with regards to its foreign policy and the other

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policies in the world. I hope that these policies that have been at the

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core of the US for decades, they will be continued on further. One

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key plank of international policy, including the United States, when it

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comes in Ukraine, is the Minsk agreement. We have seen the second

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one signed in 2015. But it is interesting now that Rex Tillerson

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says of it that he actually thinks that, and he only said this last

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month, that the Trump administration does not want to be handcuffed to

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the Minsk agreement, and that Ukraine and Russia might find Abe

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bilateral solution on the conflict in Eastern Europe. That is not

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something you would welcome, is it? Two I don't see how it the Ukraine

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and Russia would find the solution by themselves. -- I don't see. An

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extinct part of the Ukrainian territory in Crimea, and sending

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regular troops and armament to the eastern part of the country is

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exactly violating the international law that has the consequences not

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only for the Ukraine, which is defending its country, but has

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consequences for global order. And that is why it for regional

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security, as well, it is important for Europe. And that is why it is

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important to the US. Because if we will give in to Russia in the

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Ukraine altogether, if we sacrifice for any matter Ukraine to the

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federation, then the Russian President, in his appetite will

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grow, and he will attack again. The point I am making is that the United

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States say they don't want to be handcuffed to the Minsk agreement.

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That is the question I asked you. Nobody properly wants to be

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handcuffed to any agreement. -- probably. But if this is our only

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chance to sort out peace or see the roadmap, how do we get to finally a

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real prospect of peace, we should try all the possibilities. And that

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is what Ukraine is doing. That is not what is happening on the ground,

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though. The United Nations say that fatalities are up 52% compared to

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last year. Both sides are said to be violating this agreement, including

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industry that shelling. We are happy there is a special monitoring

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mission of the OEC, to provide the world with objective information.

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According to those reports of the OEC, they are everyday shelling,

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that is the Russia backed militants. Ukrainian forces are first and

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foremost protecting our own land on our own territory. They are firing

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back and whenever there is... Indiscriminately? No, they are

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firing back, and had never fired back on any of the civilian

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buildings or two dissident in residential areas, as opposed to

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Russia backed militants who are actually firing at civilians and

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residential areas. We will ask the Russians when they come on HARDtalk

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about the convict in Eastern Europe, is in Ukraine, we will do that. But

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I must ask you to respond to the accusations against Ukrainian

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forces, either regulate Ukrainian armed forces, or those activists who

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are supporting them who are armed. The United Nations High Commissioner

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and human rights and interbreed this year Ukrainian government forces and

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armed groups supporting you continued to violate rights in it in

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Ukraine. Whenever our forces are fighting back, when time allows,

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they are notifying people from the OEC that they go to buy. That is

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what makes us different from the Russian militants. -- that they are

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going to fire. But what you are alluding to right now is these

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problems that we have unfortunately, first and foremost, 82% of the

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incidents that are happening of attacks on, for instance, OEC

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monitors, on the ground, they are happening on the grounds that are

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not controlled by the Ukrainian forces. I ascended the criticisms

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are about both sides. I am asking you about the criticisms against

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Ukrainian forces. -- I am saying the criticisms are about. A report said

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the Ukrainian government forces and pro-government militias in eastern

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Ukraine used ungraded rockets that have killed civilians and said they

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use good amounts -- gauges could amount to war crimes. -- there use.

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Due to make the investigations on the Ukrainian side are all the time

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being carried out. There is no proof that Ukrainian forces have been

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using them against residential areas. Moreover, I want to recall

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specifically in the end of January, the beginning of Feber, there was a

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huge attack of a Russia led -- in the beginning of the rear, there was

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a huge attack I Russian led militants. -- February. We were

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almost having survival, with 20,000 people in that city, the grinning

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government, that took care of the repairing of those errors, making

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sure people are provided with the possibility to live normal lives in

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these circumstances. And unfortunately, that was confirmed

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also by the OEC monitors that unfortunately those were the

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militants who were not allowed for even short time ceasefires to repair

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the grids. You're talking about the

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humanitarian situation in eastern Europe, Ukraine and you're saying

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the pro- Moscow separatists are responsible but I have to put it to

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you that there are also complaints about Ukrainian activity which has

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led to what the Russian Foreign Ministry warns could turn into a

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humanitarian catastrophe. There have been criticisms of the illegal

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blockades by Ukrainian activists that prevent supplies going into

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civilians in rebel held territory, that's one of the accusations, and

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Ukraine in March imposed a temporary freeze on rail and road car though

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links to breakaway enclaves, which has meant that civilians are

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suffering in the rebel held areas, they're not getting the supplies

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they need. I hope people in the West already understood that whatever

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Russian Ministry of foreign affairs is not saying it is not necessarily

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always the truth unfortunately. Moreover what Russian information

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sources are bringing on the public. That's also quite frequently

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something that is made up. That is something that we have to deal with

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in our everyday life. What you are asking about... The Ukrainian

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government had to make a response to the actions of the Russian

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Federation when the so-called puppet basically authorities that are

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installed on the occupied territories by the Russian

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Federation on us, they expropriated 26 Ukrainian enterprises that are on

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the territory. Coalmines and steel? Yes, operating within Ukrainian law

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but they expropriated that so after that we couldn't continue working

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with them. Moreover the Russian Federation decided to recognise the

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so-called IDs produced on the local ground in the territory not

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controlled by the Ukraine. And they introduced the ruble as the only

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currency. So the Ukrainian government unfortunately had to

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react with the measure that we had to take. The blockade. But civilians

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might be suffering as a result. Again the UN commissioner for human

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rights in a report looking at the situation in the Ukraine to May this

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year has said he's worried about restrictions on the freedom of

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movement is because it means internally displaced people, the

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IDPs, entitled to pavements and social payments, living in rebel

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held areas in eastern Ukraine, to renew their registration in

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government-held territory but it's so difficult for them because they

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are subjected to long queues at Exeter and entry checkpoints, it

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exposes civilians to degrading conditions for protracted periods

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until the risk of death from shelling. You're also responsible

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for civilians suffering? Over the last half of year we have extremely

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improved the whole registration process of the internally displaced

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people. But not until May this year. And the Ukraine right now has more

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than 1.6 million of internally displaced people, think about that,

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that number. We are taking care of all the payments. If they are

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internally placed... People in occupied territory who have fled

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their homes, they are fully paid all the pensions and social care. There

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are thousands on thousands of them not receiving their pensions and

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social payments? These are IDPs who would not receive the payments and

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that's been confirmed by the recent EU report and I'm sure... There

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aren't long queues for people trying to get their pensions all social

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payments any more, is that what you're saying? There are no queues,

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there are queues on the grounds where people are crossing the

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touchline from the opt to buy territory to the Ukrainian territory

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and backwards -- occupied. That's normal with regard to security

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checks they are going through and unfortunately the militants are not

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allowing us to open up additional crossing points. All the

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humanitarian suffering for the civilians is all the fault of the

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separatists and the Russians, nothing to do with Ukrainian

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activity? We wouldn't have had the people suffering if it were not for

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the Russian aggression to the territory of the Ukraine and if it

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was not for Russia pouring in all the weapons and soldiers and

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training those militants on the territory of our country. Moscow

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says it doesn't have troops inside eastern Ukraine. That unfortunately

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is the lie they are trying to build their case on. The fact is you have

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this long border with Russia, you're near neighbour, and when it comes to

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looking at the medium and the long-term, you're going to have to

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get on, you've got people who have got ties, large number of people in

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the Ukraine speak Russian as their native language, and yet here you

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are saying you would like to pursue Nato membership at some stage, which

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would be like a red rag to a bull to Russia. Is it wise for you to be

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throwing fuel on the relationship like this and adding fuel to the

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fire of the conflict in eastern Ukraine in this way? Russia has

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attacked Ukraine specifically at the time when Ukraine had a non-aligned

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status. When Ukrainian legislation said we're not going to join any

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political or defence or security alliance with anybody else and we

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will stay neutral. It did not protrude the Russian Federation from

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actually not attacking Ukraine even though we had all the basis for our

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positive relationship, we have the strategic agreement of partnership

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with Russian Federation, moreover the Russian Federation was one of

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the guarantors of the Ukrainian subtree and territorial integrity on

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the basis of the Budapest memorandum when Ukraine was the third major

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nuclear power in the world that gave up its nuclear weapons. Who's

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pushing you to drop your non-aligned status and say come and join us in

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Nato? Nato is not asking you to join, you know that's something

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that's not going to happen for a very long time, if ever. It's the

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response of our politicians to the Ukrainian society, the understanding

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of the Ukrainian society that first and foremost right now we have to

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concentrate on being capable to defend ourselves. So you want to

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join Nato? And once we are ready, once we are integrated functionally

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into Nato and into operable, we will be able to submit our membership

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application. President Poroshenko said there will be a referendum on

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joining Nato, is that so? At some point but first and foremost we have

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to understand we need to do a lot of homework before we're ready to

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submit the application. Your portfolio, European integration,

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Ukraine, would like to add some stage join the European Union again,

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EU commissioner Jean-Claude Juncker said that wouldn't happen at least

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for 20 or 30 years because they've tried to expand to quickly. Who's

:21:42.:21:45.

going to absorb a country of 45 million such as Ukraine, it's not

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going to happen, it's a fairytale? It was a choice of the Ukrainian

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people during the revolution of dignity, which started just because

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the previous president of Ukraine did not sign the association

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agreement with the EU and the desire of people is translating right now

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in the very specific reform and transformation agenda for the

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country that we are carrying on right now. And it will become a

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truth one day and I'm sure everybody will only be benefiting from Ukraine

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joining the EU. As I said, there is a great deal of scepticism both

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within your country and within the EU about that ever happening.

:22:30.:22:33.

Finally and briefly, corruption is a huge issue in Ukraine, and I know

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there isn't a lot of time to talk about it, but it is something which

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your government came into power saying it was going to tackle, it's

:22:42.:22:45.

endemic in the Ukraine, from allegations top to bottom. What are

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you going to be doing about it? You've got to seize... I fully

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understand why you're saying this and I understand that this is

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getting much better coverage in the West, but I would like to underline

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that we have created legislature to fight corruption. We have created

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institutions like the national anticorruption bureau and the

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national anticorruption prosecution agency for preventing corruption

:23:13.:23:16.

that are already fully functional and carrying out the actions against

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high officials. We have opened up... We have opened up of all the

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politicians, their declarations of their assets, totally open to

:23:29.:23:34.

public. This is ensuring a lot of accountability. We have introduced

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the best ever system that is recognised in the West for the

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electronic public procurement, which is already saving us 10% of our

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public procurement budget. So we're closing the loopholes in our

:23:51.:23:58.

procedures that would invite any corruption prone activities, and I'm

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sure that with time we will tackle this endemic issue that we have to

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deal with. Vice Prime Minister Ivanna Klympush-Tsintsadze, thank

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you very much indeed for coming on HARDtalk. Thank you. Thank you.

:24:12.:24:33.

We've got more of that hot and humid weather coming up

:24:34.:24:41.

Yesterday we had temperatures of 30 degrees in both Heathrow and Wisley

:24:42.:24:45.

in Surrey, and we're going to see temperatures again getting to those

:24:46.:24:49.

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