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Welcome to HARDtalk, with me, Zeinab Badawi. Conflict in eastern Ukraine | :00:00. | :00:23. | |
between the two sides has worsened. Both sides have been accused of | :00:24. | :00:29. | |
violating the Minsk agreement. And talk of a warmer relationship | :00:30. | :00:34. | |
between Moscow and Washington says. Trump became president has led to | :00:35. | :00:37. | |
worries in Ukraine that its interests are being sidelined. My | :00:38. | :00:43. | |
guest is Ivanna Klympush-Tsintsadze, Ukraine's buys prominence of the | :00:44. | :00:50. | |
European integration. Is her country now out in the cold? Vice premier | :00:51. | :01:17. | |
Stirk Ivanna Klympush-Tsintsadze, welcome to HARDtalk Thank you for | :01:18. | :01:22. | |
having me here. Donald Trump has said of Vladimir Putin that they | :01:23. | :01:32. | |
would probably get along. He said -- is a election is properly bad news | :01:33. | :01:36. | |
to Ukraine. Since his election, we have only had supportive messages | :01:37. | :01:40. | |
from the US administration and we have had a very clear signal from | :01:41. | :01:48. | |
Donald Trump himself during his recent meeting with the president of | :01:49. | :01:54. | |
Ukraine, Petro Poroshenko, when he confirmed the willingness to | :01:55. | :01:56. | |
continue sanctions with regard to Russian aggression against the | :01:57. | :01:59. | |
Ukraine and to support further Ukrainian reforms, and to make sure | :02:00. | :02:07. | |
that America is staying engaged in trying to sort out the conflict that | :02:08. | :02:12. | |
we are finding ourselves as a victim. So nothing but words of | :02:13. | :02:20. | |
support? It flies in the face of what the former Ambassador to Russia | :02:21. | :02:25. | |
said on Twitter about the election night was that the biggest loser in | :02:26. | :02:32. | |
the world that night was Ukraine. Ukraine's Foreign Minister said for | :02:33. | :02:36. | |
the future of our world and our children, a better relationship with | :02:37. | :02:39. | |
the United States and Russia is something we should all wish for. | :02:40. | :02:42. | |
But that relationship must not come at the expense of Ukraine. There are | :02:43. | :02:46. | |
worries. I totally subscribe to that. They have been worries, | :02:47. | :02:50. | |
especially to any campaign, and that is why I have deliberately said | :02:51. | :02:54. | |
since the inauguration of the new president, that is exactly the more | :02:55. | :03:00. | |
solid understanding of the future relationship between the UK in and | :03:01. | :03:03. | |
the US, and the political stance of the US has been just getting around. | :03:04. | :03:10. | |
-- between Ukraine and the US. That is what we have heard from the state | :03:11. | :03:14. | |
secretary, the secretary from a defence -- the secretary of defence, | :03:15. | :03:20. | |
and we suppose that free, independent, and sovereign Ukraine | :03:21. | :03:25. | |
is in the national interests of the US, and in the national interests of | :03:26. | :03:29. | |
all the European and Nato countries, as well. So you say that there is | :03:30. | :03:34. | |
the support, but we hear things, for instance, you mention sanctions, | :03:35. | :03:39. | |
which are in place on Russia. Because of its annexation of Crimea | :03:40. | :03:43. | |
in 2014, and the continuing conflict in eastern Ukraine. They are said to | :03:44. | :03:49. | |
be supporting separatist breakaway rebels. Mike Pence has said if we | :03:50. | :03:57. | |
have opportunities to work together with Russia, I think Donald Trump is | :03:58. | :04:01. | |
looking for an opportunity to begin the relationship a new. There have | :04:02. | :04:05. | |
been hints from Washington that deals can be made on sanctions in | :04:06. | :04:10. | |
exchange for security cooperation with Russia. We do hope that | :04:11. | :04:14. | |
bipartisan support that we receive in the American congress is not | :04:15. | :04:25. | |
going to lead to any possible compromises with the Russian | :04:26. | :04:29. | |
Federation a distance of Ukraine, as well as what we hear from the | :04:30. | :04:33. | |
representatives of the administration in the latest months. | :04:34. | :04:37. | |
That is exactly also providing us with belief that this will not | :04:38. | :04:40. | |
happen at the expense of the Ukraine. It sounds like you are | :04:41. | :04:46. | |
worried. I do not think so. We have received all the confirmations of | :04:47. | :04:53. | |
continued policy from the previous administration, right now, carried | :04:54. | :04:58. | |
onto the new administration. The Obama administration was seen as | :04:59. | :05:02. | |
less freely to Russia than the current one. So when President Petro | :05:03. | :05:06. | |
Poroshenko of Ukraine met with Donald Trump a few weeks ago, it was | :05:07. | :05:12. | |
totally reassured on all accounts, was he, your President? That is | :05:13. | :05:18. | |
exactly no -- that is exacted what I know from my colleagues who were at | :05:19. | :05:22. | |
the meeting. What did he say about Premier, for instance? My | :05:23. | :05:26. | |
understanding is that America is going to continue for a | :05:27. | :05:34. | |
nonrecognition policy of the nonlegal annexation of Crimea. -- | :05:35. | :05:40. | |
say about Crimea. We also heard from the US ambassador at the United | :05:41. | :05:47. | |
Nations, Nikki Haley, as well. So I think all the signals a point in the | :05:48. | :05:52. | |
same direction. I think that we getting more and more information on | :05:53. | :05:55. | |
what is really going on on the ground in the Ukraine, that helps to | :05:56. | :06:00. | |
formulate the position that would be for the benefit of the Ukraine, and | :06:01. | :06:10. | |
for the benefit of free and democratic world, where the US is | :06:11. | :06:15. | |
the main actor. You say the US is the main actor. Beretts additional | :06:16. | :06:19. | |
concerns about the that the United States is retreating. Your own | :06:20. | :06:24. | |
former acting president said earlier this year, talking that US | :06:25. | :06:30. | |
withdrawal from global leadership. He said he expected further | :06:31. | :06:35. | |
destabilisation in Eastern Europe. He is not the only one who is saying | :06:36. | :06:42. | |
that. We have Russia and China, which President Xi Jinping said will | :06:43. | :06:46. | |
be the defining factor in the next ten years in the world. I think it | :06:47. | :06:51. | |
is time right now to get back to solidarity between the European | :06:52. | :06:56. | |
nations and the US, and other transatlantic partners, like Japan | :06:57. | :07:03. | |
or Canada, for that matter, that they would consolidate their efforts | :07:04. | :07:06. | |
in actually making sure that whatever values that have been built | :07:07. | :07:11. | |
on, they continued through in the world. The point I have said to you, | :07:12. | :07:17. | |
is are you worried that a withdrawal of America, whereby you seem Russia | :07:18. | :07:20. | |
and China filling the back room, that again is bad news to you. These | :07:21. | :07:27. | |
make the United States is not going to withdraw with all the thinking | :07:28. | :07:33. | |
that it has to do with regards to its foreign policy and the other | :07:34. | :07:37. | |
policies in the world. I hope that these policies that have been at the | :07:38. | :07:41. | |
core of the US for decades, they will be continued on further. One | :07:42. | :07:47. | |
key plank of international policy, including the United States, when it | :07:48. | :07:50. | |
comes in Ukraine, is the Minsk agreement. We have seen the second | :07:51. | :07:55. | |
one signed in 2015. But it is interesting now that Rex Tillerson | :07:56. | :08:00. | |
says of it that he actually thinks that, and he only said this last | :08:01. | :08:05. | |
month, that the Trump administration does not want to be handcuffed to | :08:06. | :08:08. | |
the Minsk agreement, and that Ukraine and Russia might find Abe | :08:09. | :08:13. | |
bilateral solution on the conflict in Eastern Europe. That is not | :08:14. | :08:17. | |
something you would welcome, is it? Two I don't see how it the Ukraine | :08:18. | :08:21. | |
and Russia would find the solution by themselves. -- I don't see. An | :08:22. | :08:30. | |
extinct part of the Ukrainian territory in Crimea, and sending | :08:31. | :08:33. | |
regular troops and armament to the eastern part of the country is | :08:34. | :08:39. | |
exactly violating the international law that has the consequences not | :08:40. | :08:42. | |
only for the Ukraine, which is defending its country, but has | :08:43. | :08:46. | |
consequences for global order. And that is why it for regional | :08:47. | :08:53. | |
security, as well, it is important for Europe. And that is why it is | :08:54. | :08:57. | |
important to the US. Because if we will give in to Russia in the | :08:58. | :09:02. | |
Ukraine altogether, if we sacrifice for any matter Ukraine to the | :09:03. | :09:08. | |
federation, then the Russian President, in his appetite will | :09:09. | :09:14. | |
grow, and he will attack again. The point I am making is that the United | :09:15. | :09:19. | |
States say they don't want to be handcuffed to the Minsk agreement. | :09:20. | :09:22. | |
That is the question I asked you. Nobody properly wants to be | :09:23. | :09:26. | |
handcuffed to any agreement. -- probably. But if this is our only | :09:27. | :09:31. | |
chance to sort out peace or see the roadmap, how do we get to finally a | :09:32. | :09:42. | |
real prospect of peace, we should try all the possibilities. And that | :09:43. | :09:46. | |
is what Ukraine is doing. That is not what is happening on the ground, | :09:47. | :09:50. | |
though. The United Nations say that fatalities are up 52% compared to | :09:51. | :09:58. | |
last year. Both sides are said to be violating this agreement, including | :09:59. | :10:04. | |
industry that shelling. We are happy there is a special monitoring | :10:05. | :10:12. | |
mission of the OEC, to provide the world with objective information. | :10:13. | :10:17. | |
According to those reports of the OEC, they are everyday shelling, | :10:18. | :10:29. | |
that is the Russia backed militants. Ukrainian forces are first and | :10:30. | :10:33. | |
foremost protecting our own land on our own territory. They are firing | :10:34. | :10:38. | |
back and whenever there is... Indiscriminately? No, they are | :10:39. | :10:44. | |
firing back, and had never fired back on any of the civilian | :10:45. | :10:49. | |
buildings or two dissident in residential areas, as opposed to | :10:50. | :10:52. | |
Russia backed militants who are actually firing at civilians and | :10:53. | :11:01. | |
residential areas. We will ask the Russians when they come on HARDtalk | :11:02. | :11:04. | |
about the convict in Eastern Europe, is in Ukraine, we will do that. But | :11:05. | :11:12. | |
I must ask you to respond to the accusations against Ukrainian | :11:13. | :11:17. | |
forces, either regulate Ukrainian armed forces, or those activists who | :11:18. | :11:22. | |
are supporting them who are armed. The United Nations High Commissioner | :11:23. | :11:25. | |
and human rights and interbreed this year Ukrainian government forces and | :11:26. | :11:30. | |
armed groups supporting you continued to violate rights in it in | :11:31. | :11:42. | |
Ukraine. Whenever our forces are fighting back, when time allows, | :11:43. | :11:51. | |
they are notifying people from the OEC that they go to buy. That is | :11:52. | :11:57. | |
what makes us different from the Russian militants. -- that they are | :11:58. | :12:03. | |
going to fire. But what you are alluding to right now is these | :12:04. | :12:10. | |
problems that we have unfortunately, first and foremost, 82% of the | :12:11. | :12:16. | |
incidents that are happening of attacks on, for instance, OEC | :12:17. | :12:21. | |
monitors, on the ground, they are happening on the grounds that are | :12:22. | :12:24. | |
not controlled by the Ukrainian forces. I ascended the criticisms | :12:25. | :12:31. | |
are about both sides. I am asking you about the criticisms against | :12:32. | :12:37. | |
Ukrainian forces. -- I am saying the criticisms are about. A report said | :12:38. | :12:42. | |
the Ukrainian government forces and pro-government militias in eastern | :12:43. | :12:47. | |
Ukraine used ungraded rockets that have killed civilians and said they | :12:48. | :12:57. | |
use good amounts -- gauges could amount to war crimes. -- there use. | :12:58. | :13:02. | |
Due to make the investigations on the Ukrainian side are all the time | :13:03. | :13:07. | |
being carried out. There is no proof that Ukrainian forces have been | :13:08. | :13:11. | |
using them against residential areas. Moreover, I want to recall | :13:12. | :13:17. | |
specifically in the end of January, the beginning of Feber, there was a | :13:18. | :13:24. | |
huge attack of a Russia led -- in the beginning of the rear, there was | :13:25. | :13:31. | |
a huge attack I Russian led militants. -- February. We were | :13:32. | :13:41. | |
almost having survival, with 20,000 people in that city, the grinning | :13:42. | :13:47. | |
government, that took care of the repairing of those errors, making | :13:48. | :13:50. | |
sure people are provided with the possibility to live normal lives in | :13:51. | :13:55. | |
these circumstances. And unfortunately, that was confirmed | :13:56. | :13:59. | |
also by the OEC monitors that unfortunately those were the | :14:00. | :14:03. | |
militants who were not allowed for even short time ceasefires to repair | :14:04. | :14:05. | |
the grids. You're talking about the | :14:06. | :14:12. | |
humanitarian situation in eastern Europe, Ukraine and you're saying | :14:13. | :14:18. | |
the pro- Moscow separatists are responsible but I have to put it to | :14:19. | :14:22. | |
you that there are also complaints about Ukrainian activity which has | :14:23. | :14:25. | |
led to what the Russian Foreign Ministry warns could turn into a | :14:26. | :14:30. | |
humanitarian catastrophe. There have been criticisms of the illegal | :14:31. | :14:35. | |
blockades by Ukrainian activists that prevent supplies going into | :14:36. | :14:39. | |
civilians in rebel held territory, that's one of the accusations, and | :14:40. | :14:43. | |
Ukraine in March imposed a temporary freeze on rail and road car though | :14:44. | :14:48. | |
links to breakaway enclaves, which has meant that civilians are | :14:49. | :14:52. | |
suffering in the rebel held areas, they're not getting the supplies | :14:53. | :14:57. | |
they need. I hope people in the West already understood that whatever | :14:58. | :15:00. | |
Russian Ministry of foreign affairs is not saying it is not necessarily | :15:01. | :15:05. | |
always the truth unfortunately. Moreover what Russian information | :15:06. | :15:12. | |
sources are bringing on the public. That's also quite frequently | :15:13. | :15:17. | |
something that is made up. That is something that we have to deal with | :15:18. | :15:22. | |
in our everyday life. What you are asking about... The Ukrainian | :15:23. | :15:31. | |
government had to make a response to the actions of the Russian | :15:32. | :15:37. | |
Federation when the so-called puppet basically authorities that are | :15:38. | :15:42. | |
installed on the occupied territories by the Russian | :15:43. | :15:45. | |
Federation on us, they expropriated 26 Ukrainian enterprises that are on | :15:46. | :15:53. | |
the territory. Coalmines and steel? Yes, operating within Ukrainian law | :15:54. | :15:57. | |
but they expropriated that so after that we couldn't continue working | :15:58. | :16:02. | |
with them. Moreover the Russian Federation decided to recognise the | :16:03. | :16:06. | |
so-called IDs produced on the local ground in the territory not | :16:07. | :16:12. | |
controlled by the Ukraine. And they introduced the ruble as the only | :16:13. | :16:16. | |
currency. So the Ukrainian government unfortunately had to | :16:17. | :16:20. | |
react with the measure that we had to take. The blockade. But civilians | :16:21. | :16:25. | |
might be suffering as a result. Again the UN commissioner for human | :16:26. | :16:30. | |
rights in a report looking at the situation in the Ukraine to May this | :16:31. | :16:34. | |
year has said he's worried about restrictions on the freedom of | :16:35. | :16:38. | |
movement is because it means internally displaced people, the | :16:39. | :16:44. | |
IDPs, entitled to pavements and social payments, living in rebel | :16:45. | :16:50. | |
held areas in eastern Ukraine, to renew their registration in | :16:51. | :16:52. | |
government-held territory but it's so difficult for them because they | :16:53. | :16:56. | |
are subjected to long queues at Exeter and entry checkpoints, it | :16:57. | :17:01. | |
exposes civilians to degrading conditions for protracted periods | :17:02. | :17:08. | |
until the risk of death from shelling. You're also responsible | :17:09. | :17:12. | |
for civilians suffering? Over the last half of year we have extremely | :17:13. | :17:17. | |
improved the whole registration process of the internally displaced | :17:18. | :17:23. | |
people. But not until May this year. And the Ukraine right now has more | :17:24. | :17:31. | |
than 1.6 million of internally displaced people, think about that, | :17:32. | :17:36. | |
that number. We are taking care of all the payments. If they are | :17:37. | :17:46. | |
internally placed... People in occupied territory who have fled | :17:47. | :17:50. | |
their homes, they are fully paid all the pensions and social care. There | :17:51. | :17:54. | |
are thousands on thousands of them not receiving their pensions and | :17:55. | :18:00. | |
social payments? These are IDPs who would not receive the payments and | :18:01. | :18:03. | |
that's been confirmed by the recent EU report and I'm sure... There | :18:04. | :18:08. | |
aren't long queues for people trying to get their pensions all social | :18:09. | :18:13. | |
payments any more, is that what you're saying? There are no queues, | :18:14. | :18:19. | |
there are queues on the grounds where people are crossing the | :18:20. | :18:22. | |
touchline from the opt to buy territory to the Ukrainian territory | :18:23. | :18:27. | |
and backwards -- occupied. That's normal with regard to security | :18:28. | :18:31. | |
checks they are going through and unfortunately the militants are not | :18:32. | :18:35. | |
allowing us to open up additional crossing points. All the | :18:36. | :18:38. | |
humanitarian suffering for the civilians is all the fault of the | :18:39. | :18:44. | |
separatists and the Russians, nothing to do with Ukrainian | :18:45. | :18:48. | |
activity? We wouldn't have had the people suffering if it were not for | :18:49. | :18:51. | |
the Russian aggression to the territory of the Ukraine and if it | :18:52. | :18:56. | |
was not for Russia pouring in all the weapons and soldiers and | :18:57. | :19:01. | |
training those militants on the territory of our country. Moscow | :19:02. | :19:05. | |
says it doesn't have troops inside eastern Ukraine. That unfortunately | :19:06. | :19:10. | |
is the lie they are trying to build their case on. The fact is you have | :19:11. | :19:13. | |
this long border with Russia, you're near neighbour, and when it comes to | :19:14. | :19:17. | |
looking at the medium and the long-term, you're going to have to | :19:18. | :19:21. | |
get on, you've got people who have got ties, large number of people in | :19:22. | :19:26. | |
the Ukraine speak Russian as their native language, and yet here you | :19:27. | :19:30. | |
are saying you would like to pursue Nato membership at some stage, which | :19:31. | :19:35. | |
would be like a red rag to a bull to Russia. Is it wise for you to be | :19:36. | :19:40. | |
throwing fuel on the relationship like this and adding fuel to the | :19:41. | :19:44. | |
fire of the conflict in eastern Ukraine in this way? Russia has | :19:45. | :19:49. | |
attacked Ukraine specifically at the time when Ukraine had a non-aligned | :19:50. | :19:53. | |
status. When Ukrainian legislation said we're not going to join any | :19:54. | :19:59. | |
political or defence or security alliance with anybody else and we | :20:00. | :20:05. | |
will stay neutral. It did not protrude the Russian Federation from | :20:06. | :20:09. | |
actually not attacking Ukraine even though we had all the basis for our | :20:10. | :20:15. | |
positive relationship, we have the strategic agreement of partnership | :20:16. | :20:18. | |
with Russian Federation, moreover the Russian Federation was one of | :20:19. | :20:22. | |
the guarantors of the Ukrainian subtree and territorial integrity on | :20:23. | :20:26. | |
the basis of the Budapest memorandum when Ukraine was the third major | :20:27. | :20:31. | |
nuclear power in the world that gave up its nuclear weapons. Who's | :20:32. | :20:35. | |
pushing you to drop your non-aligned status and say come and join us in | :20:36. | :20:41. | |
Nato? Nato is not asking you to join, you know that's something | :20:42. | :20:44. | |
that's not going to happen for a very long time, if ever. It's the | :20:45. | :20:48. | |
response of our politicians to the Ukrainian society, the understanding | :20:49. | :20:53. | |
of the Ukrainian society that first and foremost right now we have to | :20:54. | :20:58. | |
concentrate on being capable to defend ourselves. So you want to | :20:59. | :21:03. | |
join Nato? And once we are ready, once we are integrated functionally | :21:04. | :21:11. | |
into Nato and into operable, we will be able to submit our membership | :21:12. | :21:14. | |
application. President Poroshenko said there will be a referendum on | :21:15. | :21:19. | |
joining Nato, is that so? At some point but first and foremost we have | :21:20. | :21:24. | |
to understand we need to do a lot of homework before we're ready to | :21:25. | :21:29. | |
submit the application. Your portfolio, European integration, | :21:30. | :21:31. | |
Ukraine, would like to add some stage join the European Union again, | :21:32. | :21:36. | |
EU commissioner Jean-Claude Juncker said that wouldn't happen at least | :21:37. | :21:41. | |
for 20 or 30 years because they've tried to expand to quickly. Who's | :21:42. | :21:45. | |
going to absorb a country of 45 million such as Ukraine, it's not | :21:46. | :21:51. | |
going to happen, it's a fairytale? It was a choice of the Ukrainian | :21:52. | :21:56. | |
people during the revolution of dignity, which started just because | :21:57. | :21:59. | |
the previous president of Ukraine did not sign the association | :22:00. | :22:05. | |
agreement with the EU and the desire of people is translating right now | :22:06. | :22:10. | |
in the very specific reform and transformation agenda for the | :22:11. | :22:13. | |
country that we are carrying on right now. And it will become a | :22:14. | :22:20. | |
truth one day and I'm sure everybody will only be benefiting from Ukraine | :22:21. | :22:26. | |
joining the EU. As I said, there is a great deal of scepticism both | :22:27. | :22:29. | |
within your country and within the EU about that ever happening. | :22:30. | :22:33. | |
Finally and briefly, corruption is a huge issue in Ukraine, and I know | :22:34. | :22:38. | |
there isn't a lot of time to talk about it, but it is something which | :22:39. | :22:41. | |
your government came into power saying it was going to tackle, it's | :22:42. | :22:45. | |
endemic in the Ukraine, from allegations top to bottom. What are | :22:46. | :22:50. | |
you going to be doing about it? You've got to seize... I fully | :22:51. | :22:53. | |
understand why you're saying this and I understand that this is | :22:54. | :22:58. | |
getting much better coverage in the West, but I would like to underline | :22:59. | :23:04. | |
that we have created legislature to fight corruption. We have created | :23:05. | :23:09. | |
institutions like the national anticorruption bureau and the | :23:10. | :23:12. | |
national anticorruption prosecution agency for preventing corruption | :23:13. | :23:16. | |
that are already fully functional and carrying out the actions against | :23:17. | :23:21. | |
high officials. We have opened up... We have opened up of all the | :23:22. | :23:28. | |
politicians, their declarations of their assets, totally open to | :23:29. | :23:34. | |
public. This is ensuring a lot of accountability. We have introduced | :23:35. | :23:42. | |
the best ever system that is recognised in the West for the | :23:43. | :23:45. | |
electronic public procurement, which is already saving us 10% of our | :23:46. | :23:50. | |
public procurement budget. So we're closing the loopholes in our | :23:51. | :23:58. | |
procedures that would invite any corruption prone activities, and I'm | :23:59. | :24:02. | |
sure that with time we will tackle this endemic issue that we have to | :24:03. | :24:09. | |
deal with. Vice Prime Minister Ivanna Klympush-Tsintsadze, thank | :24:10. | :24:11. | |
you very much indeed for coming on HARDtalk. Thank you. Thank you. | :24:12. | :24:33. | |
We've got more of that hot and humid weather coming up | :24:34. | :24:41. | |
Yesterday we had temperatures of 30 degrees in both Heathrow and Wisley | :24:42. | :24:45. | |
in Surrey, and we're going to see temperatures again getting to those | :24:46. | :24:49. |