Tewodros Melesse - director general, International Planned Parenthood Federation HARDtalk

Welcome to HARDtalk with me, Zeinab Badawi. Few issues are as

controversial as abortion when it comes to addressing women's rights.

Campaigners believe that women's right to control their fertility

does not extend to abortion on demand. Donald Trump has ended

funding for organisations that promote or fund abortions. One such

organisation is the IPPF, the International Planned Parenthood

Federation. My guest is the outgoing director-general, Tewedros Melesse,

and I ask if it is right that they should forfeit government funding.

Tewedros Melesse, welcome to HARDtalk Thank you. What is the loss

of a few -- US funding means you? One thing is that the US has been

the greatest contributor to developmental assistance. Today,

Donald Trump is cutting down by 17 or 18% of the funding. When it comes

to sexual productive health and rights, there is a link specific.

That is that it is that you cannot take our money and with your own

money or somebody else's money, you cannot conduct abortion. But what

does it mean in practice? Is there anything that you are doing now that

you won't be a will to do as a result of the loss of US funding? I

think the figures are, your annual budget is about $175 billion, --

million. And the American funding is about $35 million. In any of the

previous administration, we have not used US funding to talk about

abortion, or to perform abortions. Never. Because that was the claws of

the US funding. What this administration is telling us is that

even if it is not with our money, if it was with somebody else's,

whatever the conditions, you cannot refer a client to abortion or

advocate for abortion, or do any of that was somebody else's money. But

hasn't that been the case in the past with previous presidents, like

Ronald Reagan, where he said that US money could not be given to any

organisation that promotes provides abortions? That has been the case.

But the difference here is that it is extending to seek a virus and had

to be AIDS. Haditha defector Zika Zika virus? -- HIV -- how does it

affect the Zika virus. If the mother or child is good to be affected, you

had to talk about abortion. If the mother once, you have to refer. So

it is going to affect your work on HIV, for example? It is not going to

affect the current contract, but when it ends. What is that men? It

means losing 100 million over the next three years. Although the

programme is seen it is saving lives, it is going to be affecting

4.8 million pregnancies and 1.7 million abortions. Mary Stokes, the

family planning organisation, says as a result of Donald Trump Osmo

policy, that there will be 22,000 maternal deaths in his first term.

You don't really have any idea of what the outcome would be in terms

of figures like that. They are a startling, aren't they? We know it.

We have lived it. Can I give you some examples? A girl in Uganda, she

was 16. She became pregnant. She was raped, forced. And she could not

tell her family. She could not go to a doctor. What happened? She took

herbal medicine, and died. Her mother did not know because she did

not tell her. And these kinds of things, this mortality in some of

the countries, this goes to over 500, 500,000. That is maternal

deaths. And that is in countries where abortions are illegal. There

are more than those in which it is legal. Backstreet abortions that are

done? Is a make-up course. But the fact that you see this is an

imperative to see this work done. But do you not think that there is a

imperative for life? Donald Trump stood for office with this opinion.

He is entitled to that opinion. In fact in January, Mike Pence said

life is winning again in America. They have their views. They are

entitled to them. A respect their views, but you cannot impose them on

somebody else. In a country which says it is a place of democracy and

an example of democracy, it cannot impose a different view on somebody

else. But you cannot impose your view on a president who has, as part

of the decision that he makes, how the tax money is used? I never

agreed that this group is pro life. In fact, it is the opposite. Because

we care about the life of a woman. We care about the life of a girl.

You know, those who are between ten and 16. There are over 34 million

who are pulled out of school because of early marriage, sexual abuse, or

the informed decision to have a baby. All this is that we care about

the likeable woman. But it is not just that, Tewedros Melesse, is it?

Because you are encroaching on ideological territory. You have met

stiff opposition from the Catholic Church in Peru, for example. I want

to give you one example of the criticism. One person looked at

programme is supported by groups that you back in Latin America, and

he says that these groups are using the funding to lobby politicians and

change public opinion. You are lobbying, these are your advocacy

groups. You are not just involved in providing healthcare? There is a

difference when lobbying and advocacy. What we do is that we

work, not as, we call ourselves locally owned, globally connected.

In Peru, it is not our office in Europe which is going there. We

don't go from London. It is proving is! But they're connected to the

IPPF, of which you are the director-general. These are groups

that are acting with your blessing. -- it is Peruvians. Yes, but a

woman's prerogative, it started in Europe, America, India, Africa,

everywhere, to tell me that it is the West that is bringing something

else. It is really very... I didn't say the West. No, I meant a foreign

ideology. No, I didn't say that. The IPPF has about 170 countries as

members and you work in party with the United Nations. You are very

bona fide. Yes, but the question is do we fight for the rights are woman

to make a choice to be informed of what is the consequence of having

unwanted pregnancy? Knowing that she can lose contraception. -- use

contraception. Is it time to legislate that a woman, taking into

account her personal condition, her social condition, as a free choice?

But the people that have a different opinion, you might disagree with

them, but the respect their point of USA, OK, Donald Trump, and as they

might have taken this decision. We will either find a different way of

doing what we want to do, but we respect your decision. The respect

people who have a different point of view to you? You can respect, and

you can disagree. We need to fight because there is a reason. Are used

to lobbying? I didn't say lobbying. Advocacy and showing. What is

amazing, Zeinab Badawi, is that in places where abortions is legal, why

should this administration said no, it cannot be legal in Ethiopia, or

in Peru, or in Chile? Keep your democratic institutions and respect

our work. Is your American chapter, then, trying to change the mind of

the Donald Trump administration? Try to change, get in the alliance

correct, and getting as many people to back them as they can. Because

this is a fight. And the fighting, there is no niceties, there, that

was respect the laws of the countries. It is not just abortions

that you have issues with. You work to promote women's sexual and

reproductive rights. You also campaigned against things like early

marriage, which is very common in your native Ethiopian. You know, the

effects of the general relation. But in trying to charge these problems,

you are challenging deep conventions. -- female genital

mutilation. Believe me, it is not as hard as it is. Because the

communities, they know. For example, in Pakistan, we are working with

religious groups. These are the ones who are teaching them what the

rights of a woman are. How challenging it is for an early

marriage. It doesn't mean there is no opposition. But there are

religious leaders from the Christian side also. From the Catholic Church.

I visited in a minor street, which is run by nuns. In Pakistan, you

mean? No. In Pakistan, the Islamic scholars at teaching how to respect

each other and how to respect a woman's life. So your point is you

are getting some religious leaders on your site to say, look, early

marriage is not good. Two no. It is not that difficult. It is the

politicians who are competent in the thing and trying to gain support.

They are trained to use all the political. In America, people

believe in, you know, their own religion. The American Constitution

respect the right of the individual and the woman. That you do meet

challenges along the way. In Africa, resistance, a woman seeking

contraception is seen as promiscuous and not accepting the will of God

issues not married and having as many children as she may be able to

have. I prefer to look at these positive side. There are challenges.

In southern Africa, and Eastern Africa, the prevalence rate is over

35%. If you go to the south, at this gets you 50% or 60%. This was not

the case 20 years ago. To achieve the goals, many countries have

committed their resources. They have come to the family planning summit.

The Ugandan government, the Zimbabwean government, the Ethiopian

government, they have committed themselves to making family planning

services available. Is it enough? No. Worldwide, there are millions of

women who don't have access to contraceptives. Note, but the trip

is is there. The commitment is there by the government. There are

challenges. There is the issue of accessibility, information,

affordability, the training of people, the choices of individuals.

So you have a positive attitude? Is your attitude so positive that it

takes you to conflict areas were you also champion women's rights, but

you find yourself in an uncomfortable position. For example,

in Syria, you have been working with the government forces to help women

with their sexual reproductive health rights and yet we hear about

the rape cases in Syrian government prisons that take place. So are you

not collaborating with a government, a regime, that is actually

responsible for the degradation and abuse and explication of women? --

exploitation. We are not partnering with the

government. We are working for those displaced in Jordan, those in

Lebanon... In areas of conflict you say you want to help women in

crisis, including in conflict, so you are working on government-held

areas in Syria. Including those areas controlled by the opposition.

You mean so-called Islamic State? Red Cross has agreed with any

government what it is doing but operating in a country which is in

conflict. Including four women who are raped, to give them counselling

and therapy. You mean in areas held by so-called Islamic State? I don't

know what our Islamic State controlled areas, but rebel held

groups. They might be. They might be. So you have no problem working

with so-called Islamic State but we know they have been selling sexual

slaves... We are not endorsing the group. What we are saying is those

displaced women, girls and young boys, they need education. The

torment they go through. How do you operate in practice in such areas?

Areas that might be controlled by IS or the Syrian government? Difference

between us and other organisations is... These people operate within

the context of their country. We are not interested in providing and

supporting emergency or disaster situations, but we are forced to act

in such a situation. We are providing for over 3 million people,

just until 2016. I want to look at another controversial area where the

IPPF has worked. You worked with a Chinese Family Planning Association,

right through Beijing's one child policy. You yourself in that visited

China in 2013 and met the Prime Minister. Did that not make you feel

uncomfortable? No. A country that has a one child policy? Restated

clearly our position. When we met the Prime Minister of China, we put

clearly what we called vision 2020 which put clearly the choice of the

individual and the woman is very important. He endorsed that and

said, we will move on forward. Immediately after that we set the

two child policy. That was changed in 2015. You made a statement

welcoming it. Exactly. What we are saying is we are not working with

all the governments that we agree with entirely. We make our position

is very clear, even the fact that choice, individual rights, they are

written on a placard in our clinics. We provide services to immigrant

populations. But women in China have no choice. You say you went in 2013,

he met the Prime Minister, you said you should have this one child

policy, it changed in 2015, that's fine. But you know what your

predecessor, the director-general, did and what she said in 2009, in

China. This is what she called China's one child policy. It is very

conducive to China's development in various aspects, including in the

realm of health-care services. That's not a statement which is wise

to make, is it, really? Well, the thing is, the Chinese government

have come up with that position. We have expressed that we don't agree.

But she sounds like she is endorsing it. Well, she is putting rather the

contextual situation of the country. You know? But, for us, the choice of

the woman getting the appropriate information... Allegation it with

them has made a transformation, a change. We have contributed to

change. Is it enough? Is it adequate? No, we have lobbied to go.

Even in countries where the whole democracy is there... But you are in

partnership or co-operating in a way with China, even though you say you

don't agree with what they say and what they're doing with their one

child policy. This is what a women's group called Women's Writes Without

Frontiers said. This is a view will stop while posturing as a champion

of choice, the IPPF has in fact been working hand-in-hand with a

population control programme in China almost since its inception.

Forced abortion is not a choice. We have never... I will never agree

with forced abortion. That is very clear. But, do you engage with

governments with whom you disagree? Yes, we do. Do you agree with 160

countries around the globe? No. There are areas where we don't

agree. But we protest and pack and go. I understand it is the local

Family Planning Association. And we engage with them. But forced

abortions are still operating. In China, forced abortion under the two

child policy is still in existence because there is a two child policy

now. Well, do you want us to go into exile? No. We fight in the country

where we stay. We don't go to exile because we don't agree with the

government. We engage with them, we advocate, with -- we engage with

health providers and government officials, the national publishing

commission. For example, the national population commission...

There is a change. What we forget is even in the West... Some of these

women are allowed to vote in Western countries. In Sweden where did they

start voting? The 70s. Yes. So why don't they engage? So are you

engaging with Chinese authorities and saying, look, you have two child

policy, but actually that still involves a large degree of forced

abortions, so would you stop that? Because there are still going to

be... Included extending US State Department said they were tweedy 3

million abortions in China -- 23 million abortions in China and we

don't know how many of those were forced. So still a huge number going

on. You know, the interesting thing is it is interesting, 37 countries

where there is abortion is illegal, it is happening. In countries where

it is still legal. Even in those where it is legal there are a lot of

abortions taking place. Is it the provider's error, is it

misinformation? Or is it a constraint imposed on the woman?

That has to be investigated and checked out. But because we have a

certain attitude about China, we can't just make you know it

generalised declaration. Is there any government he would work with?

No, except if they impose their view on us and tell us, you can't speak

about this. Then that's a problem. You have this passionate commitment

to women's sexual reproductive health rights and yet obviously you

are man. Why this passion and interest? The first thing is before

I became sort of conscious about these issues, I observed my

grandmother who just had one daughter and my grandfather's family

were really terribly upset. She gets only one child and she gets only a

girl? It was like of revolt. She was almost sent to exile over that. And

my mother was almost forced to be given for a marriage at 13. I

grandmother took away and she said, I've not give to those people. She

wanted to get somebody while going to school. And she identified my

father a teacher. She gave my mother for a wedding when she was 16. I

observed what my mother has lived through, having seven children. When

I was in school I was observing girls disappearing suddenly. Because

they were pregnant. Because they can't be with their family, they

can't be in school until they delivered they would be away. Or

they would throw away the baby and comeback. That was a very tough

situation. Then I came to Europe and realised what it means and that is

the commitment, both personal and the passion. I like literature and

poetry, so that makes me passionate and a woman gives life. Tewodros

Melesse, thank you very much for coming on HARDtalk Thank you.