Kenneth Bae, Former North Korea detainee HARDtalk

Welcome to HARDtalk, I'm Stephen Sackur.

Relations between the United States and North Korea have

The recent toe-to-toe confrontation between Donald Trump and Kim Jong-un

raised fears of a conflagration on the Korean Peninsula.

My guess today has a unique perspective on North Korea's often

impenetrable mindset. Kenneth Bae, an American

Christian missionary of Korean descent who was arrested

inside North Korea and spent two years

in a Pyongyang prison. What does his experience tell

us about the world's Kenneth Bae, welcome to HARDtalk.

Let's begin with your decision to go and live in China in 2006. Quite

soon afterwards, you began undertaking tours into North Korea,

that special economic zone inside North Korea, close to the Chinese

border. Why did you undertake those tours? I was sent as a missionary to

China, and I was living in the Chinese community. While I was

serving in the Chinese community, I was able to meet with North Korean

defectors and others. I ended up visiting North Korea to see what it

is like to live there, what it is like to see how people live there.

By doing so, I ended up conducting a tour into the country 's. When you

say you went there to see how people lived, you also went as a Christian

missionary? That is correct. I am a Christian missionary and I was there

to see how we could help the people that, how to pray for the people,

and how to build a bridge to the people in North Korea. You and the

people on your tours, you were all committed Christians. You had a

Christian outreach purpose in going to North Korea. You went with

Bibles? That is correct, we had something to worship with but we

kept it to ourselves. I was told it was quite safe as long as we clapped

our worship and prayer to ourselves it was not something to worry about

-- kept. We went in to see the land and engaged in different

conversations, without vandalising people they are. It seems you are

treading a difficult, grey line, because as we all know,

Christianity, for people inside North Korea, it is forbidden. If

they possess a Bible they can face extreme criminal punishment. I going

in with a missionary mission and to be intent to signal to those people

in North Korea your Christian purpose, were you not running risks

both for yourself and the people you are meeting? It was perfectly OK to

bring a Bible as a tourist into North Korea. As long as we keep the

Bible to ourselves, it should not be any problem. What about the chats

you had, the hymns you saying with North Korean people in close

attendance? The press? At one point, I believe you said that you pray

that Jesus can make a channel to the north? -- payers. If North Koreans

appear sympathetic to that, you would get them and yourself in

trouble. We had to work with different channels, we worked with

people in the two industry in North Korea. There was a specialised city

that I brought people into. It was OK for Christians going on to pray.

As long as it was in our own spaces. We fast forward through a number of

these trips you undertook, to the trip you undertook in late 2012 when

you actually got attained. That's correct. I am feeling that cannot

have been a complete surprise to you, given the North Korean regime

and what you are trying to do? I made a mistake by carrying a

portable hard drive into the country that contained some theories about

Western media regarding North Korea, about North Korea. They were upset

to find out that I had brought in something disturbing to them. This

is why I was arrested, not because of what I was doing before. One

writer has drafted fascinating books about teaching English to the North

Korean elite. She has considered your case and said that basically,

you did things that were not allowed by the regime, and you got punished

accordingly. That you sort of brought this upon yourself. Would

you accept that? I made a mistake by carrying a portable hard drive into

the country, but when they realised I brought people to pray and worship

inside North Korea, they took it as a hostile act to themselves. They

did, they accuse you of all sorts of crimes, but it boiled down to

plotting to overthrow the government. That is why you were

sentenced to 15 years hard Labour. Overthrowing the government by

prayer and worship, that was the charge. Take me back to that moment,

I believe it was 2013 when you were sentenced. You had had a lot of

interrogation by that point. Some of it had been quite psychologically

intense. How did you feel as you stood there, waiting for your

sentence? They told me that I probably would not get anything. I

don't have to worry about the worst, that is what they told me. That

meant the death penalty or life in prison. I knew they would go for a

more lenient sentence because I was using my place as a political

bargaining chip at the time. 15 years with hard Labour. You said you

thought they would treat you leniently, how did you feel when you

heard the sentence? I was glad that I got 15 years. I didn't think that

I would actually serve 15 years of that sentence in North Korea. I was

sort of told that it is not about how many years I would be getting,

it is about the attitude and what the US government would do. From the

very beginning, it got the feeling that you were a bargaining chip? Not

in the beginning, but while the investigation was going, two or

three months later, I realised that it was not anything just about

myself. Examining not just myself but our entire US government system.

Were you ever abused, during the interrogation phase or once they put

you into prison as a convict? Was there abuse? No, I was not abused,

but there was some psychological trickery. Making us uncomfortable,

at the time. Once you said, one of the prosecutors told me I was the

worst, most dangerous American women they had apprehended since the

Korean War. They said that because they thought I was doing the

missionary work by myself, but I trained and mobilised and brought

many people in North Korea to pray and worship. There are others who

worked in North Korea, they said, it not only you, you brought so many

others. Therefore, you are the most dangerous criminal we have ever

apprehended. There are so many contradictions to this, I wonder if

you can explain. On one level, they hated what you were doing and

clearly regarded you as dangerous. The Christian missionary work was

something they found more than alarming. And yet, you say that

they'd put you in a cell with a Bible, with access to hot water,

twice a week you were allowed to visit a former. This is North Korea

where the ordinary people of the country are suffering the most

terrible deprivations, and you had access to a former? That was in my

detention centre but for the trial -- sauna. Apparently they have

private bathrooms with a sauna in it. It was not a nice bath time. It

was not anything extraordinary. I am just trying to get to grips with

what they were doing with you. Do you think, from the outset, they

wanted you to be somebody that they, in a sense, preserved in a good

condition, physically and mentally, because they hoped that your case,

there was another American citizen, Matthew Miller, who was being kept

in the same prison for much of the time you were there. They very much

for you as part of a way of reaching out to the Obama administration?

Exactly. This is what they told me. When I was sent to a Labour camp,

the conditions were not that great. The food was not great, I had to

work eight hours a day, six days per week. I was not sitting in a nice

room for two years. While I was there working, the prosecutor came

to see me and told me that, at this rate, your government doesn't care

about you enough, you may have to stay here for another seven or eight

years. You probably won't get home until you retire. This is the guy

who gave me the 15 years of hard Labour sentence. You are officially

known as risen at 103, but some gods, when you were alone, they

would refer to you as pastor, which suggests to me you developed a

relationship with some of them? By about one year into it, I did

develop a relationship with some of the gods. I realised they are

regular people just like us. They just happened to live there. They

were working there. As a human being, we started striking up

conversations. When there was nobody around, sometimes instead of calling

me a prisoner, they would say, pastor, can I talk to you? It was

like everybody else living in the country as well. Having small

conversations like that. A great deal of common humanity, you say. I

am told that when commentators look at North Korea today, so many assume

that it is a society that is absolutely brainwashed. You have

been inside that society, in a very particular way, being a prisoner for

two years. You have emerged from the experience, you look back at it,

does it strike you as a brainwashed society? I think that is pretty much

true. As soon as they were born, they were taught that way. The

media, everything, they were surrounded by it. Even for me,

living there for a few months and watching television and reading the

newspapers and books that they get to read, only being there for a few

months, I realise that this is actually taking effect on me,

because I only see the good sides of the story about the leaders of the

country. If people are born there, living in the society, they wonder

they think that way. I realised that many of them, they are so

brainwashed that, even with different opinions and things, they

want to reject everything, because they don't think it can possibly be

true. Did a warmup to you? I believe so. We were having conversations,

they had some second thoughts. They did wander. Information is key if we

want to see any changes happening in North Korea. Information from

outside, communication is very important as a tool for winning the

hearts of people in North Korea. You are released at the end of 2014

and that seemed to be because of a secret visit by James Clapper to

North Korea. I'm mindful that your case is so varied if -- different to

that of the young man Otto Warmbier who also ended up in prison in North

Korea. It is collocated. He was accused of stealing a fine and then

each used of espionage and imprisoned. -- stealing a sign. Soon

after, it seems, he suffered terrible brain injury and ultimately

was returned to the US and died very soon afterwards. Given what you have

described about your treatment, can you in anyway explain or speculate

about what happened to Otto Warmbier? I can only guess, just

like everybody else. I do believe that either there was physical abuse

or some kind of accident that could have happened. Why would they abuse

him and not you? Your guess is as good as mine. I think it depends on

what Otto Warmbier actually did to trigger those kinds of things as

well. If it was the poster being taken down, I believe that the

poster has Kim Jong-un name on it. If so, it is harsh treatment that

could be given. Maybe he had no idea what he was taking down but it has

Kim Jong-un's name on the posters and it's actually a pretty serious

crime against them. The treatment could be different. And then maybe

because in his interview, he used the words, "Save my life." People

don't usually say these things. "Spare My life," maybe but not saved

my life. He was going under physical or a psychological threat and may be

going through a nervous breakdown or something like that. A lot has

changed since you were released. Not only has Kim Jong-un's authority in

North Korea being exercised in all sorts of ways including more and

more missile tests and allegations he has now conquered the

militarisation of a nuclear device but we have also seen a change of

administration in the United States. Donald Trump is now the President

and we have seen that highly dramatic, intense stand-off between

Kim Jong-un and Donald Trump in recent weeks. With your perspective

and insight, based on what you know of North Korea, when Donald Trump

talks of fire and fury, talks of locking and loading, talks of

displaying power to North Korea, the likes of which people have never

seen before, how do you think North Koreans and obviously their leader

Kim Jong-un, would respond to that? They don't like losing their face.

In terms of a tough stand, they will continue to stand and stand with

that kind of position. I think the missile could nuclear testing may

continue until they get to the level they want to be out. You are saying

intimidation doesn't work? It may work in little bit but I think

eventually they know there is a limitation to what the US government

can do because we are talking about a publication whether South Korean

government and Japan and everybody else nearby, it may take some time

but they may get to where they need to be so they can finally make a

meaningful negotiation with the United government. You now live in

Seoul and in South Korea they are looking with some consternation. You

have gone to live in Seoul and it seems dedicated your life to

working, in a large part, with escapees from North Korea. Tell me

about the people you are working with today. How many in an average

year now out of North Korea and what are they telling you about the way

they are experiencing these conditions in North Korea right now?

Every year at least 1000- 1500 people are escaping. Many numbers of

people are escaping but have been caught on their way to China. But

the numbers have gone down. Is that because Kim Jong-un and his regime

are guiding and monitoring the river border with China much more closely

at its more difficult to escape today than it used to be? Yes,

that's true. Right now, it is a lot harder for people to cross the

water. After they escape from North Korea, they are living in the border

area and from then to get away to the cities and southern regions,

it's very difficult. And from the recent escapees, is it your

impression that living conditions, we know from UN agencies that

roughly 70% of the population are reliant on food aid, in your

opinion, is it getting worse or better? Exactly getting better than

before. Now they have free market system, almost, and they are using

it to gain economic wealth. It's not because of what the government did

but the people themselves have to rely on themselves and now they are

making trade everyday. It seems like it's got them during those found in

years but in terms of people's suffering, it still same. Let's go

back to where I began which is asking you about the degree to which

you have to take personal responsibility for your arrest in

North Korea. You arguably made some pretty terrible decisions. It just

strikes me that this issue of committed Christians wanting to get

into North Korea for missionary work, it hasn't gone away. After you

were arrested, I have found this extraordinary comment from the youth

with a mission movement who like to send missionaries to difficult

places including North Korea. Even after you had been detained, talked

about preparing men and women for preventing the Gospel to North

Koreans. Those people whose minds and hearts have atrophied in

darkness under Communist rule. The missionary group said, "As long as

participants keep a level head and use common sense, there should be no

trouble." That is an outrageous thing to say, isn't it? Now you know

the US government had issued restrictions and travel bans to

North Korea. That's right. I was telling them that for now, time is

very different. At the time I was arrested four years ago, time is

different. Especially after Otto Warmbier's case, I do not recommend

people go there as a tourist at that time. Still, a missionary

brandishing a Bible. Well, you know, every group has their own way of

doing things. I cannot say for sure that everybody but do believe that

they can go with responsibilities. Surely, your message, given your

personal experience, to anybody going into North Korea doing

Christian outreach, surely your message to them, as a responsible

person, should be, "Do not do it." Well, they had to count the costs. I

had to pay the cost was that I was imprisoned for two years. --I had to

pay the cost. I was imprisoned for two years. I developed a hard for

people in North Korea. I am working with refugees outside of North

Korea. My heart is still the same for the people inside North Korea.

We're talking about 34 million people with no human rights freedoms

to choose when they want to leave and there is no information going

into them. We need to embrace and care for them but we need to do it

wisely. So, in a word, was your experience worth it? Jetta I do

believe so. Kenneth Bae, we need to leave it there. --I do believe so.

Thank you very much for coming on HARDtalk. Thank you.

A full UK forecast is on the way and I can tell you, it will be

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