Dr Bernice A. King - CEO, The King Center HARDtalk

Now on BBC News, it's

time for HARDtalk.

Welcome to HARDtalk with me, Zeinab

Badawi. I am in Charleston, the

biggest city in the State of South

Carolina in the south of America.

Today it is sunny and picturesque,

but Charleston's prosperity was

built on the back of the slave

trade. Nearly half of all of

America's slaves arrived at this

port. Behind me, the slave market,

where they were sold and bought. The

struggle for freedom has been long

and bloody. One of the most iconic

fighters was Martin Luther King. My

guest is his daughter, Dr Bernice

King. What does she make of race

relations today? Dr Bernice King,

welcome to HARDtalk.

Thank you for

having me.

You are CEO of The King

Centre in Atlanta, Georgia, like

your late father, Martin Luther

King. You preach coexistence. When

you look around the world today,

including the United States, do you

existence?

You certainly see it in

various places. When I travel around

the nation and the world, I see it.

But we have a lot of work to do in

terms of understanding different

cultures and appreciating them and

respecting them in finding a common

way to move forward in society.

Because, you know, we have a society

of laws and opportunity. That is

where much of the friction lies.

Just looking at the United States,

Algernon Austin, an

African-American, says America is

not post- racial. He says the civil

rights movement of the 50s and 60s

failed more than it succeeded. He

thinks that you did not make

progress on segregation. He says

today in my city, Washington, DC,

more than a third white, there is

not a white child in any of the

schools in mind neighbourhood.

--

my. I would not say it failed. I

would say it is a progression.

Obviously, there is still

discrimination that process, and

sometimes it is difficult to prove.

-- exists. Thank God there are laws

in place now that were not when my

father was alive. I would say

someone who can define it very

clearly, we lost his voice. No one

has... No one has emerged since that

time to really articulate the

movement the way he did.

Some would

argue the Black Lives Matter

campaign is trying to claim a kind

of voice in the community. And

looking at their stand, it would

seem to suggest that they think

there is actually a great or more

that has to be achieved, for

example, if you look at the Take a

Knee Protests, it suggests there is

still very overt discrimination

going on.

There is. But look at it

like a glass is half empty, half

full way. There is racism that is

overt. But there is also brotherhood

and sisterhood in some communities

and in some relationships. Either

way, I look at it through my

mother's quote, struggle is a

never-ending process. We lost ground

from my father's assassination up

until this time period because we

were not vigilant.

Staying with the

Take a Knee Protest, that has given

visibility to the discrimination,

and you support it? Do you support

it?

I support the right to protest

and standby your conscience. What I

would like to be able to do is to

help further that kind of movement.

My father had a philosophy of

nonviolence and supple and steps.

Most people do not understand that

there is a reason and a rationale

for protest in my father's

philosophy. I am not saying that the

way people protest is wrong these

days. But we called it direct

action, designed to bring about

attention to get back to bargaining

on the negotiation table where you

set out to work things out. David, a

columnist in the New York Times, I

believe Donald Trump is not only

wrong but deliberately picking a

fight with African Americans to

appeal to his base.

Nevertheless, he

says I disagree with the kneeling

protest because it alienates people

who could be persuaded to the cause.

It is difficult. You have to explain

Dr King's philosophy. It is not a

matter of whether he is wrong and

their right and his right or their

wrong and his wrong, it is about

understanding the context in the

spirit of Dr King. I think both are

right because the negotiation and

direct action are part of the

process, but you have to note when

direct action comes into play. --

know. And so I would say that I

support people's right to stand by

their conscience and what they

believe is right. My father used to

say we have a right to protest for

right.

Do you think is approach is

relevant in the 21st Century? There

has always been a debate.

People can

debate until the cows come home.

Truth always prevails. At the end of

the day, it is very relevant to bite

this African-American lawyer said in

October this year I think that in

this era, the idea you get in the

moral high ground by wearing a suit

and tie and being nonviolence, by

singing church songs, that strategy

is not effective in the 21st

century. I would say he is ignorant

of my father's philosophy, with all

respect. He does not understand it.

He has not studied it up it is not

about a suit and tie. It is not

about singing songs. It is direct

confrontation in a non-violent

spirit and in a manner against

injustice and wrongdoing.

Could it

be a generational thing? Barbara

Reynolds said in 2015, she was an

activist in the 1960s, she says

Black Lives Matter seems intent on

rejecting proven methods. The 1960s

method had respectability and love

and unity. Spirituality as well.

That is not a high priority for lack

lives matter.

I agree. -- Black

Lives Matter.

Do you think younger

generations do not understand the

spirituality?

I think they are

searching for it, not that they are

not understanding it. At some point

they will land on it.

In a nutshell,

what would you say his underlying

philosophy is that underpins what

you think should be done in terms of

the friction?

First of all, you have

to have a commitment to

reconciliation. That determines

everything, how do you approach

things. You have to have a

commitment to win-win, not one to

winning over people, but winning

people over.

Clearly, things are not

going in the right wait...

I

disagree.

This is what you said

quite recently, we are heading to

race riots if we are not careful, we

cannot keep the divisiveness going.

"If" is a keyword, it does not

translate to "It will." We have the

opportunity to turn things around.

If people do not pause and really

study Dr King, we could end there.

He was a prophet, he told everyone

what to do and he predicted what is

going on.

Going on, for example...

If we do not actively pursue justice

in any nation, tension is going to

grow, and turmoil in the streets

will persist. He said that.

You are

referring to Charlottesville, in

August, for example, with a white

nationalist rally.

That is an

incident of it. What is happening

with law enforcement in the streets.

All of it.

Just a few miles away,

the Reverend of the church where

your father used to bridge, Take a

-- preach, he says it is getting

worse.

It is in some ways. I work

with some ministers, black and

white, trying to overcome the divide

with pastors trying to understand

each other's world. They have a

programme called Better Together. We

have a talk at The King centre

trying to get people together. My

father said people hate each other

because they fear each other, they

fear because they don't know, they

don't know because they don't

communicate. We have to get to know

each other. Part of what is

happening in America is ignorance.

Unfortunately, the media is

furthering that divide. When we

listen to staff, traditional media,

social media, we react. -- stuff. We

have to learn how to live together,

as my father said.

One big

flashpoint at the moment between

white nationalists and black people

is over the symbols of the era when

slavery existed. Where do you stand

on that? Statues of Robert E Lee,

the Confederate leader during the

slave era, for example, do you think

such statues should remain in place?

I believe we are in a season where

we have to bring voices together and

find a win-win solution. I have

personal beliefs. I believe those

things long in one immense. --

belong in monuments. But we need to

lessen the tension with those who

believe in those memorials. We need

to help them better understand why

there is a reaction to those

monuments. Their right to make

different types of monuments, those

built to honour those in the

confederacy, and those built during

the time of segregation. Bash, there

are two different.

Which should

remain?

You have to separate them.

Some are part of the confederacy,

some designed to send a message of

oppression to African Americans at

the time. They belong in a museum is

to move forward. But in order to get

them there, we have to talk it

through and get people together

non-violently. If you force people,

it leads seeds of violence in its

wake.

You said racism needs to be

dealt its final blow. Are we any

closer to that?

I think we are

purging in America. Things hidden

are coming to the surface. For too

long we have let things be brushed

under the rug. Now things are coming

to a head. You have more all the

cultural voices coming together like

never before. -- multi-cultural.

This is the first time in the

history of our nation the issue of

white supremacy and white privilege

has ever been addressed or faced,

like never before. You have white

people, I know this personally, who

are talking about white privilege

like it is a problem. That has never

happened before. People saying that

white supremacy has to be done away

with. Thank God for the

consciousness they have raised.

When did that began?

I think it is

the last three or four Mac years. I

think it emerged from Black Lives

Matter, it emerged from that young

generation who rose up and brought

to our consciousness... There is a

group of individuals, America, that

you still have refused to deal with,

in terms of value.

When Barack Obama

gave his farewell address as

president, he admitted America is

still divided on race. He said race

remains a potent and often divisive

force in our society. Do you think

he could have done more?

I think

everybody could have done more. I

would never say that he is the only

one who could have done more. All of

us could have done more. We have not

been persistent in dealing with the

issue. We kind of touch it, and we

move on to the next thing. We are

going to... This is the issue of our

day that we are going to have to

address. And if not, you know, it is

going to get worse.

Riots, and more

division?

Possibly, yes. Yes.

When

you say President Obama could have

done more, do you want to be more

specific? What specifically more

could he have done?

Well, I mean, he

could have challenged leaders in

different sectors to create

atmosphere and environments to

begin, you know, formulating an

approach to addressing it, in their

different circles of influence. You

know, I think everybody could have

done that, you know. But I think, as

the leader of the nation, he could

have done more of that.

And what

about the current president?

Well,

he has had moments after moments to

do it. And for whatever reason, we

are afraid as a nation to deal with

racism, as the world, to deal with

racism. It is not just America.

Is

Donald Trump afraid to deal with

racism, do you think?

I think most

leaders are afraid the deal,

including President Trump, I think

most are just afraid to deal with

it. I mean, it is... First of all,

it is not going to be something that

we will conquer overnight. It is a

lifelong pursuit.

As a child, the

youngest child of Martin Luther

King, you were five when he was

assassinated. You were born, though,

at a high point in his life, it

really, when he received the Nobel

Prize, peace prize, when he made his

famous I have a dream speech in

1963. You carry the King name.

Obviously you try to continue his

work. Do you see that legacy as

something very positive, or do you

feel that it is a burden in some

ways?

No, I feel inspired by it. I

feel a sense of responsibility. At

one point, it was a burden. But now

it is so much a part of me, I

welcome part of me. You know, the

only burden I feel is the burden

that he felt, which is, will we ever

wake up to who we really are as

humanity? To understand our value to

each other? That is the burden I

carry on a daily basis.

You said at

one time you felt that it was a bit

of a burden, but now you see it as

something that is positive and

enriching. Just explain a bit more.

Was it something you have had to

grapple with?

Well, yes, yes. The

first part of it, because I was

called to the minister at a young

age, I was called at 17, I didn't

really answer until I was just about

45. And then, in the early stages of

accepting my calling, and then

beginning to preach, I wanted to

find Bernice, I wanted to find my

voice. I wanted to see where I was

congruent, and not just be due

Pygott of my father and mother. And

so I spent many years not even doing

a lot of reading, of his books, or

listening to his sermons, until I

knew for sure, OK, this is who I am,

this is what I accept in life. And

then I started to approach a little

bit more. Before then it was like, I

don't want to deal with this,

because people are going to always

be comparing me to them, and I had

to get comfortable with being me,

and understanding what my mother

told me as a child, me and my

siblings. You don't have to be me,

this is what she said, you do not

have to be met, you do not have to

be your father, just be your best

self.

How have your siblings dealt

with it? I your older sister, the

oldest child died in 2007 at a young

age. She was only 51. You had two

brothers, Martin Luther King the

third, and Dexter. You seem to be

one who is continuing.

No, I think

my brother Martin is doing it as

well, he is just not a preacher. But

he is doing it as well. He is doing

it a lot of travelling, carrying

some of the messages that I carry

all over the place. And so I

wouldn't say that it is not

carrying, but we are carrying it out

in different ways. Dexter is a

little bit more reserved than

personal. He doesn't do public

speaking, he doesn't feel

comfortable in that space. And so I

think each one of us are doing it in

different ways. You know, what has

helped all of us, because we have

talked about it before, if our

mother had put pressure on us, it

would have been really hard. But she

took that pressure off, and that has

helped us to process through the

external pressure that we have in

different seasons of our life.

You

know, bereavement has been a really

defining feature of your life,

hasn't it? You lost your sister,

Yolanda, obviously your father was

shot dead, your uncle was found

mysteriously dead in a swimming

pool.

Father assassinated, yes.

Your

mother died of cancer in 2006. I

mean, how has that affected you?

It

has affected me a lot. A lot of lost

and separation, and you know, I deal

with issues of abandonment all the

time. I have processed through anger

from time to time. I still deal with

anger. I have the discipline myself

so the anger doesn't overtake you.

Depressed moments, as well?

Yes, I

have depressed moments. I miss my

mother, especially, and my sister,

because you know, I knew my mother,

I was close to my mother. My father

is a different story. And so, you

know, I have days when I am very

sad. But what I take with me is the

lesson is that each one of them

taught me in different ways. My

father more vicariously, but my

mother directly. My sister, etc, and

that what keeps me going with my

faith, my strong faith.

I know

obviously you were only five when

your father died, but if he were

here and were to look around him at

race relations today in the United

States, what do you think his

opinion would be?

I don't think he

would have an opinion per se I think

he would repeat the things. One of

the things I said to you earlier,

that we have to deal with the issue

of justice, or else we are going to

continue to see the growing tension

and the turmoil in the streets. And

none of this stuff would surprise my

father at all.

Would he think the

struggle had been in vain, for

example, when he sees...

I think he

would be disappointed. Disappointed

that more efforts had not been made

to embrace some of the things we

talked about, the radical revolution

of values, that we begin to become

more of a person centred society

than being centred society. That we

deal with the triple evils of what

he called poverty, racism and

militarism. And so I think he would

be disappointed that in the 50 years

that he has been gone, that people

did not take up that mantle

persistently as a whole. And when I

say people, I don't mean

individuals. I mean people of

conscience did not work collectively

together persistently. The movement

was a collection of people of

conscience, a coalition of

conscience, that moved together

under his leadership persistently.

That is what has been absent today.

You have people living in pockets,

but they are not doing it in a

collaborative, consistent way.

Couldn't that leader be you?

I don't

know about that. I do know about

that. I have no idea, only God knows

that. And, you know...

Well, you

wanted to be when you were a

teenager...

You know, my father was

a reluctant leader. I am a reluctant

leader. And he didn't choose to lead

the movement, you know. He was

catapulted. He was elected by a

group of people, and destiny had

him, and he accepted. And that is

how it occurred. So, you know, I

don't pursue leadership. What I try

to do is to lend my voice to

different situations, and I will

continue to do that.

Bernice king,

thank you very much indeed for

coming on HARDtalk.

Thank you, I

appreciate it.

coming on HARDtalk.

Thank you, I

appreciate it.