Alfred Bosch - Republican Left of Catalonia Party HARDtalk

and abuse against

members of parliament.

Mr Fallon admitted that his

behaviour in the past may have

fallen short of the

standards expected.

Now on BBC News, HARDtalk.

Welcome to HARDtalk. I am Stephen

Sackur. Far from settling anything,

the Catalan regional government's

recent decoration of independence

has deepened the uncertainty and

confusion in Catalonia. Madrid has

placed the region under direct rule.

The leaders of the ousted

administration in Barcelona face

charges in trial. New elections are

to be held in December. My guess is

Alfred Bosch, a senior figure in the

Republican left party which was part

of the coalition. Have the

secessionists scored a massive own

goal? Alfred Bosch, welcome to

HARDtalk.

Hello. How are you?

Very

well, and wondering how you are

feeling. Would you agree that things

have not exactly gone to plan since

that unilateral declaration of

Catalan independence just a few days

ago was a -- ago?

The declaration

happened and the plans have worked.

Now we are trying to do something

which deserves some respect which is

trying to cope with a wave of

oppression that the Spanish

government is deploying in Catalonia

against us.

Well, respect,

obviously, has to be earned. I am

just wondering whether the people of

Catalonia respect leaders of their

regional government who don't appear

to have had any coherent strategy

for the day after the big

declaration.

I think everybody here

in Catalonia understands, and I am

sure the world will understand, once

it is explained that we needed to

have part of the government in

Catalonia not abandoning their own

people. And part of the government

in Brussels to initiate this

international strategy. And to tell

the whole world that we are live,

that we proclaim the Republic and we

want freedom and to pursue it

through democratic means to be now

there is a huge wave of oppression

falling on top of us. Otherwise,

people will be saying why are you

addressing the international

audience, why are you staying at

home? We spoke and we did the right

thing, I think.

I must say, you are

putting a very positive spin on

things and we will get to

accusations of oppression from

Madrid in a moment. Just to stick

with what the Catalan leadership has

been up to of late, this is what you

said on Monday the 30th of October,

just a couple of days ago, you said

that Carles Puigdemont, who, of

course, was the leader of the

Catalan regional government, would

not abandon this duties. You said

that he has been chosen to lead this

country and that is what he is going

to do. It is his duty. He will not

abandon his duty. Well, as you were

saying that, we now know he was

getting on a flight and going to

Brussels and is now in effect is

living in exile.

Well, of course, he

is still fulfilling his duties and

his obligations because, I am sure

you can realise that Carles

Puigdemont would like to write now

be with his family, his beloved

wife, his two children, girls, eight

and 10, and wants to be with them.

But he is fulfilling his obligations

because he is in Brussels explaining

to the world what is going on in

Catalonia, what are the hopes of us

and what are the plans for the

Spanish government.

Be honest, when

you said that, you did not know that

he was fleeing to Brussels. Let's

face it, your own leader of your own

Republican Left Party, he made a

different choice. He could have

stayed in Barcelona.

It was a

collective decision. We decided the

president of Catalonia is the best

icon we have so we will not

surrender it. Like the Dalai Lama,

did he surrender? No, he didn't. We

have to stick by him. He needs to be

in the capital of Europe for the

time being. That might change.

Sorry

to interrupt, but let's go through

this bit by bit.

I am serious.

Isn't

it true he has gone to Brussels as

nobody of any significance in the

institutions or leadership of member

states, they don't want to talk to

him, they will not touch him with a

barge pole.

First thing, I think it

is not something to be laughed at.

Our people were butchered by the

police for voting. Elderly ladies,

grandmothers, grandfathers, they

were beaten up, whole families were

beaten up for voting, just for going

to the voting stations. That is

something that deserves attention

from Europe, from everybody in the

world. And what Carles Puigdemont,

the Catalan president, is doing

right now, is pursuing that

international agenda. That does not

mean we will have instant success

because European leaders see what's

happening in Catalonia as a threat.

I think they are wrong. They should

see it as an opportunity. Because

Europe was founded on democracy. And

in the aftermath of a Second World

War, it was the ballot box, and not

the bullet, which prevailed. And

that is how we think things should

prevail in Europe. And that is what

we are doing. Who could be

against... I mean, could Claude

Monet the against the people who

defended the ballot box with their

bodies? Is that not an example for

Europe?

I promise you we will come

back to the European response on

what the Catalans and your regional

government have done in a moment

just as we will get to your

allegations Madrid. But I want to

stick to what the decisions have

been sent unilateral declaration of

independence from your own site,

from leadership of the secessionists

party. Let's face it, I mean, right

now, it is clear that there is deep

confusion inside the various parties

that make up the Yes to Independence

Coalition, will you at least accept

that?

Well, what kind of confusion?

Could you expand on that?

Indeed, I

can. For example, I have had

different messages from different

politicians about whether your boss

in the Republican Left Party and

Carles Puigdemont, and others,

indeed should go to Madrid to face

the charges and the trial that is

now demanded of them by the

authorities in Spain. What do you

say to that?

Well, it is very clear,

and I have stated very clearly. The

vice president of the Catalan

government, he was chosen in the

polls, in voting sessions. He was

chosen by the votes, so it is to get

it. He will go to court to face the

charges, charges against sedition,

for example, rebellion, ancient

offences like that which don't

really stand probably in the modern

Western world and Europe right now.

Will Carles Puigdemont... Will

Carles Puigdemont be one of those

individuals charged who agrees to go

to Madrid? I talk of confusion, for

example, whether he is prepared to

go.

Let's not get overexcited about

this. We can deal with this with a

very calm attitude. Carles

Puigdemont, like I said at the

beginning, he made a decision which

was actively taken collectively. And

we decided that he was too valuable

to go and hand him over to the

Madrid authorities. Now, the rest

will go there, and most of the

councillors and the vice president

will be in Madrid to face whatever

charges they encounter in court.

Carles Puigdemont has to be

preserved as an international icon

for the time being. That is our

decision, and we will stick to it.

We said that yesterday. We are quite

firm in that.

By your own account,

then, he will be essentially a

absconding from justice. The others

are prepared to go and face justice.

Carles Puigdemont is not.

Let's look

at this in a subtle way. Will use

call it justice, would you call it

fair, people who organised a vote on

October the first, a vote which was

actually defended by the people

physically with their bodies. Is

defending freedom is an offence in

21st century Europe, we are in a

really bad situation, I must say.

Still, they are brave people, they

will face whatever charges they

have, because they don't want to let

the people down.

Here is another...

I used that word confusion and you

questioned me about itis another

area in which I see confusion of the

ERA you in the Republican Left Party

and in the party of Carles

Puigdemont as well prepared to fight

the elections in December 31 and put

up as candidates all of those people

who were in the last Parliament? --

confusion? Are you now able to

accept that de facto Madrid rule is

the order of the day and you will

play by the rules of Madrid going

forward?

To answer your first

question, yes that be the answer to

the second question, no.

But the two

are interlinked, because if you are

prepared to fight that election, you

are doing it on the terms of Madrid.

Your Parliament, the one you say is

legitimate, has been dissolved. The

order of the election is coming from

Madrid. You are recognising direct

role by taking their request to

fight the election.

That is the

Madrid line that is the argument of

the Spanish government. I am sure

the BBC, which takes a neutral

stance on this and professionals

like you will actually like to hear

our opinion on that. We don't see it

interlinked. In fact, we see that

Madrid and Mr Rajoy specifically had

to call the election not out of

strength, but out of weakness. He

did not want to do it. He announced

there would be no elections in six

months, maybe one year, then he does

it in the legal minimum, a month and

a half. Someone forced him, convince

them, to call them that it was a

concession. That is a sign of

weakness. He is strong enough to

call it, obviously, but not enough

to delay them. Because his

intention, and he said it quite

clearly, it was a statement by Mr

Rajoy on television. He said he

would suspend Article 155, putting

direct rule on Catalonia, putting

the police under the orders of the

ministry of the interior in Madrid.

His inability to do that is what led

to the election. We are entering the

Madrid line...

It is interesting,

there's talk of where the weakness

in the strength lies. I mean, again,

looking at the facts, as I try to

do, you and others in the

independence movement said there

would be mass civil disobedience if

Madrid imposed direct rule under

Article 155 of the Constitution.

Look at the last couple of days.

There has not been mass civil

disobedience. Public sector workers,

teachers, police, firefighters, they

have worked as normal. Senior police

officer is dismissed from posts

advised junior officer is to

continue. People in Barcelona and

other towns and cities look pretty

normal to be in fact, the biggest

rally we have seen since this crisis

reached the point of UDI was

actually a pro-union rally where up

to a million people went onto the

streets expressing support for the

continued union of Catalonia inside

Spain!

Yeah. There were some scenes

of violence in the aftermath of all

those demonstrations by pro- fascist

groups, but we can also say...

With

respect, Alfred Bosch, where was the

mass civil disobedience that you

predicted?

Carles Puigdemont

referred to that in his press

conference in Brussels. The issue is

whether we would like to see

violence, whether we would like to

see bloodshed, because the threat

was there. We saw with the Madrid

government, the Spanish government,

we saw what they were capable of

doing, sending police against

ordinary unarmed defenceless

civilians, and we saw that on

October one, and you broadcast that

all over the world. So we know what

they are kept ball of doing. There

were very serious threats on Catalan

society, and Catalan petitions, like

Carles Puigdemont, received those

threats, and they have decided to

stop people mobilising. --

politicians. That would have led to

a massive confrontation. Does anyone

want that? Note. We are a peaceful

and civilised people. We will carry

on in a civic and very peaceful

manner like we have always done. Is

that is why we are standing for the

selections. We want to turn them

into a plebiscite. We have that

opportunity. Let's turn it around

and try to win the elections. Let's

do it again. What will he do?

That is a very interesting point and

an interesting challenge to Rajoy

did you have just made. You clearly

have expressed your confidence that

the pro- independence parties will

emerge victorious on December 20

one. But that if around to Europe.

The indication of what you are

saying is that there is a

recognition that if you do not win a

clear majority - that is the pro-

independence parties do not emerge

victorious on December 21. Your

declaration of independence will be

null and void and your dream of

independence is shattered. Would you

accept that?

I would accept that we

had to pursue our goals through

democracy and through the vote. And

through free, peaceful methods. We

have been doing that for seven

years, at least, actively. We have

one popular consultation. We have

one unofficial binding referendum...

No, no, no,... Unofficial binding

referendum is not straitly true,

what you said. It was not an

official binding referendum. The

constitutional court dismissed it,

the Spanish courts do not recognise

it, nor any other members of the

European Union, and you in your

party is regarded that as binding,

but it was not persuasive to those

authorities that matter.

No, sorry.

Sorry. I must argue on that. You are

obviously following the line of the

Spanish governed.

No, no, I am not

following any lines. I am looking at

the facts.

The Catalan referendum

was approved in Parliament. And it

was enacted by law. And it was

binding because the law said it was

biting.

And the Spanish

Constitutional Court decreed that

that particular law and the calling

of that referendum by the Catalonian

regional government and Parliament

was not constitutional.

I might

grant something: If you only, if you

only argue according to Spanish law,

obviously, we should concede that.

If you argue with fundamental rights

and democratic rights, obviously

people have the right to vote. They

had it in Scotland. They had it in

Quebec. They have added all over the

world.

With the agreement that the

national sovereign governments

relevant to those particular cases -

you never had the agreement of

Madrid, and that is the point. But

if you don't mind, let's address

whether right now you truly believe

you have a majority of Catalans on

your for the consistent push toward

full, practical independence. Let me

quote you the words of a highly

respected figure in Catalonia, that

is the Mayor of Barcelona, who you

know very well. She says this: "

What I see is a headlong dash at

kamikaze pace which has been

concentrated with this declaration

of independence in the name of

Catalonia, but does not have the

support of a majority of Catalan

people. "

well, I belong to a

different party, so please

understand that I might think

differently. They think differently

because they think she enters a

contradiction, the Mayor of

Barcelona. I am in the opposition,

too, by the way.

I appreciate that,

but she is the Mayor. But a lot of

Catalan is, given that Mr Puigdemont

isn't Russell -- is in Russell,

regard her as one of the most

important figures today.

-- 21. I

respect her, but that does not mean

we agree with her. -- Brussels. Why

did you vote in the referendum? If

she had to say or less? Why did she

bigger was a kamikaze race, and then

voted for this? A referendum on

independence? That introduces a

certain paradox, don't anything?

Maybe it is because she is a

practical person and she is looking

at reality. And very briefly,

because we do not have much time,

you referred earlier to what you

believed had been a mistake in

response the European Union. I would

put it to you that if you listen to

the words, for example, European

Council had Donald who said Spain is

our only interlocutor. -- head

Donald Tusk who said. If you listen

to the tone and the words that are

used by leaders, the ambition of

Catalonia to be an independent state

within the European Union does not

have a chance of success.

Look,

little when it declared its

independence and got its first

recognition from Iceland almost one

year after that. So these things are

slow. You have the parliaments of

Slovenia, Lithuania, Estonia,

Finland, who will vote on

independence. You are over anxious

to get international recognition for

the Catalan republic. We have

patience. We will work to that. Mr

Puigdemont is in Brussels and I'm

sure he will work on that. So don't

worry about this. -- we will work on

that.

I promise I won't worry. But I

am talking about practical reality

is opposed to fantasy. In terms of

this UDI...

I am sorry, sir, that is

an interpretation.

Let's talk about

reality. If you believe you live in

an independent nationstate, explain

to me how you do not control your

borders, in terms of the most basic

infrastructure from airports to

railroads to telephone systems. You

are entirely dependent on Madrid,

and, frankly, even for finance, you

are entirely dependent on Madrid. So

I come to the point: Is your talk of

an independent Catalonia, right now,

fantasy or reality?

There was a

declaration of independence. That is

a reality. It was voted by the

people. And then it was ratified by

the Catalan parliament. There is a

wave of oppression against that.

Because the people voted and because

the politicians and leaders of

Catalonia organise that vote. Now

that is real. It is also real that

Catalonia is not an independent

nation, right now, to all regards

and purposes. But it is also true

that always in history when they has

been opposition for the Metropolis,

that has taken some time. And that

have with American independence, it

happened with the independence of

Lithuania, of Slovenia, of any

country. Any country which has had

opposition by the Metropolis.

Our

final thought, now, Mr Bosch. Over a

thousand businesses have moved out

of Catalonia because of economic

fears. All of the research I have

looked at suggest that there is no

way that Catalonia can be an

economically successful independent

nationstate. Are you irresponsibly

playing with the future of the

Catalan people?

No. Why don't you go

until two hours on? They just

established their main distribution

point in Barcelona, Catalonia. Why

do you talk for the people who are

to open up hotels? Why do you talk

to all of the visitors we are having

increasingly in our town? This is

especially Barcelona as a successful

city. And nothing of that is

happening. There are political moves

of companies who are being pressured

by the Spanish government to move

out, and that is the way the Spanish

government tries to seduce the

Catalan people. Instead of accusing

our leaders of sedition, which is a

very old-fashioned crime, which they

imposed, for instance, on Mahatma

Gandhi, in 1922, over 100 years ago.

It is said that they tried to seduce

the Catalan people, probably the

Spanish government would be a better

situation keep Catalonia within the

kingdom of Spain, I am sure.

All

right, Alfred Bosch, think it will

be on HARDtalk.

Most welcome. --

thank you for being on.