Cyril Ramaphosa - South Africa's Deputy President HARDtalk

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talk.

Welcome to HARDtalk,

I'm Zeinab Badawi.

My guest is the deputy president of

South Africa, Cyril Ramaphosa. This

is his first interview with the BBC

since he became president of the

ruling ANC. He could also become

president of South Africa very soon,

if Jacob Zuma heeds calls to resign

early. But is Cyril Ramaphosa and

ANC stalwart and wealthy businessmen

the right person to lead a new South

Africa, a country mired in

corruption and cronyism?

Deputy President Cyril Ramaphosa,

welcome to HARDtalk.

Thank you very much.

It is good to be here.

How worried are you about

corruption in South Africa?

Deeply worried, because corruption

tends to be a very negative action

that is taken by corrupters

against the nation.

It impedes growth, it is something

that takes away the resources that

are meant to advance

the lives of our people,

and it puts it in the hands

of a few, and it is a criminal act,

and that is why I have been

determined that we should

rid our country of corruption,

because it has become all pervasive.

The good thing, though,

is that we have identified it,

and we are now taking

action against it.

If you were serious about taking

action, I put this to you,

when you became leader

of the ANC in December,

investor confidence

in South Africa shot up.

It would shoot up even more

if you were president, wouldn't it?

I guess, yes, there would be such

a response, because my campaign

message leading up to the December

conference when I was elected

was pivoted around corruption,

not because it was so much just

to get elected, but it was

a national issue that people wanted

action to be taken on.

An urgent matter?

Yes.

An urgent matter.

Therefore, I put it to you,

why doesn't Jacob Zuma go?

You want him to go

as soon as possible?

Since I was elected,

we are in a transitional period.

The transitional period means he has

still got 18 months to go and I have

been elected as leader of the party.

Will he serve that 18 months?

In this transitional period,

we are looking at all options,

various options, and the people

of South Africa are talking.

Many say he should go, others say,

no, he should not go now.

What do you think?

I think we should manage it

so carefully that whatever we do

should be in the interests

of South Africans.

It should advance...

But we know what that is,

though, with due respect,

Mr Deputy President.

If it is in the interests

of South Africans, then it

would mean that the decade-long rule

of Jacob Zuma, where we have seen

accusations of cronyism,

the corruption, the economy

going down, it is obvious,

it is a no-brainer, he has to go

as soon as possible.

Would you be so kind

as to spell that out and say,

yes, I agree with you, Zeinab?

No, no.

I agree that what we should do,

we should ensure that the growth

that would be engendered by this

new era coming should happen,

and it should happen so that it

advances the people of our country,

and therefore, my task

as president of the ANC,

together with my other five

colleagues who are part

of the Top Six, is to manage this

transitional period.

We have been mandated

by the National Executive Committee

to navigate around this matter.

It is a delicate matter.

You have said that his exit is to be

handled with delicacy,

and that it must not be dealt

in a humiliating fashion,

that he should not be sacked

in a humiliating way,

nor should he perhaps face

a protracted impeachment

process in parliament.

Yes.

So what is the nature

of your negotiations with Jacob

Zuma?

What does he want?

Immunity from prosecution,

for example, has he asked for that?

Well, that has not been spelt out

by him, but what we're looking

at are all these issues...

He has not spelt that out?

Let's just clarify that.

No, no, he hasn't spelt that out.

Because there are lots

of allegations about state capture

and his relationship with certain

business people in South Africa.

He has not said, I would

like immunity from prosecution?

No, President Zuma has not said

he wants immunity from prosecution,

and as it is now, there are quite

a number of charges that

are being looked at which could be

preferred against him,

so he has not asked us that.

But what we are looking at...

Can I just ask, suppose,

just to take it down the line,

he was to stand trial, as you say,

there are these allegations,

and I am not prejudging anything...

Yes.

But if he were to go on trial

and then to be found guilty,

and if you were president by then,

you could exercise your presidential

pardon.

Would you pardon him?

We have the rule of law

in our country, and people always

want to see justice done,

without fear, without favour,

without prejudice, so whatever

will need to be done,

to President Zuma, will have

to follow the due process

of the law, a process that anyone

who is a South African will be

subjected to, so that we put aside.

We deal with the present

and what could be the immediate

future, and when we engage

with President Zuma,

we are obviously pointing out

the various risks and

challenges that lie ahead.

Have you talked to him personally,

just the two of you,

with nobody around,

and spelt things out to him?

Yes, I have spoken to President Zuma

and we are continuing to be

engaged in discussions.

And he understands

the severity of the situation?

I would think that yes, he does.

Anybody who is president

would understand the challenges

and the severity of

the situation that we are in.

There were reports in the press

that he had been recalled

by the ANC's executive committee

which is made up of well over

a hundred members,

and then it was retracted.

This is what the ANC secretary

general, Ace Magashule,

said days ago, that the party's

national executive had discussed

Zuma's recall, but he said

on the 22nd of January,

there isn't any rumour or decision

to remove Jacob Zuma.

There are no timelines.

We can't put timelines.

I don't think we can be dictated

to by anyone on how to deal

with the matter.

That is true.

That is true?

There are no timelines?

Well, not really.

We are looking at it within the time

frame that we have got for him

to serve his term out,

but obviously, things have to be

handled as quickly and as

swiftly as possible,

so the National Executive Committee

did not take a decision

on this matter.

What it did decide on is

that the Top Six officials must

engage with President Zuma and deal

with this transitional matter,

which is giving rise

to a number of challenges.

So, and I have been saying

to the nation, firstly,

we do not want to disrespect him,

we do not want to humiliate

President Zuma, but we will deal

with the matter, and we need time.

What is that matter?

The matter of his departure?

Of course, of course,

because we are in a transitional

period.

You keep on saying "transitional

period", but everybody wants to know

how long that

transitional period is.

I put to you what Trevor Manuel,

former finance minister

of South Africa, has said

of Jacob Zuma, he has reduced some

of South Africa's key institutions

and state industries to rubble

and been openly contemptuous

of the courts, and these things

are piling up.

Surely, Mr Deputy President,

the longer Jacob Zuma stays

in office, the more people lose

confidence in South Africa?

Christine Lagarde, the head

of the IMF, has downgraded

the forecast for South Africa's

economy, growth in the South African

economy, citing

political uncertainty.

Yes.

You have said to me,

I am worried about corruption,

I am worried about the state

of our economy, and I say to you,

one very simple solution would be

for you, as head of the ANC,

to say, Jacob Zuma, you must go,

and you must go now.

Yes, a new dawn is on the horizon.

We are now involved

in a new era in South Africa,

there is a new leadership,

and this new leadership is just

barely a month old in its position,

and we are dealing with this matter

and obviously the key matter that

everyone wants to see addressed

is the tenure that President Zuma

still has to serve out.

Constitutionally speaking,

he still has 18 months.

And within this 18 months,

obviously a lot of things can

happen, but he and I have agreed

that we are going to be meeting

regularly, to discuss matters,

but it dictates, and by definition,

it means that in the course

of this, we are also

going to discuss the transition.

How long is it going to last?

How is he feeling?

Is he under pressure?

Is he feeling very anxious?

He must be, with all this stuff

swirling around him.

Well, obviously, any normal human

being would be anxious,

would be concerned about all this,

so he is naturally feeling anxious,

and he wants mattered

to be handled in a way...

That they will be handled carefully.

And I am saying, my key interest

is to move the country forward.

It is not so much about

what happens to an individual,

it is what the interests...

Really?

Even if that individual

is the current head of state who has

presided over what has been

described as state capture,

just the interests of the few,

of the state's assets?

You see, the state capture issue

is now being handled.

A commission of enquiry

has been instituted,

has been appointed, and is now

going to go into the depths.

There has been state

capture, you say?

Of course there has

been state capture.

Everyone agrees that our state

was captured by corrupt elements,

by people who purported to be

close to the president,

who have been doing really

bad things in getting

into all and many

state institutions.

I wonder, Mr Deputy President,

if your hands are tied as leader

of the ANC, because let's face it,

in the leadership contest,

with Nkosazana Dlamini Zuma,

former wife of Jacob Zuma,

you only won very narrowly,

179 votes out of the 5,000 cast?

Yes.

You are presiding over a divided

party, a divided executive

committee, where there

are lots of supporters

of Jacob Zuma, and you're thinking,

I cannot really move as fast as I'd

like, my hands are tied.

That is the state

of affairs, isn't it?

Well, it may well look like that,

but when we emerged out of that

conference, we came out

with our commitment underpinned

by two things, unity and renewal.

Unity means that we're

going to unite all the different

strands within the ANC and work

together, and everyone

committed to that.

It is a battle for you, isn't it?

Admit it, it is a battle for you?

Well, it is a battle because we come

from different sides,

different strands, so my task

as president of the ANC is to pull

everyone together, to unite

everyone, so that we all move

in the same direction, and so far,

I think we have done pretty OK.

Really?

Because William Gumede, chair

of the Democracy Works Foundation

in South Africa, a highly

respected South African,

says, the corrupt side control

the party, and are going to protect

Zuma at all costs.

Cyril Ramaphosa's challenge will be

managing this while getting started

on reforms which will be

slower, not big bang.

I put it to you again,

your hands are tied.

You are not in control

of your party?

Well, you know, as president

of the African National Congress,

my job is to unite the party,

to unite the party, to execute

the resolutions that

are taken by the party,

and one of those is to fight

corruption, and already we have

shown our hand.

We have already started acting

against people who are corrupt,

we have had a commission appointed,

we have moved into one

of our state-owned enterprises

which had been captured,

and we are rooting out

people who are corrupt,

and we are going to be ensuring

that the criminal justice system

officials do arrest

people who are corrupt.

Our intent on that

should never be doubted.

We are going to take action

against those who have acted wrongly

against the people of our country.

That is going to be

a full-time job, isn't it?

Prince Mashele, co-author of a book

called The Fall Of The ANC,

says your party is

rotten in its entirety.

So it is not just accusations

against Jacob Zuma and those

around him, it is right

across the party?

Well, we allowed corruption

to continue growing in the party.

We have recognised that this

is a problem, we have decided

that we are going to root corruption

out, and it is not everyone

in the ANC who is corrupt.

There are some really good

people in South Africa,

in the African National Congress,

and that is what is giving us

the platform, and the levers to root

out those who are perpetrating wrong

things against the people

of South Africa.

OK, but I put this again to you.

I know I am giving you all these

people who are saying this,

that and the other but it is

important to show that these

are very serious people saying this.

Sure.

Former South African president

Kgalema Motlanthe said of the ANC

leadership only in April, over time,

they have countenanced Zuma's

mistakes and actually defended him,

and in the process,

they are complicit

in the wrongdoing.

Do you feel complicit,

because you could have

done something sooner?

I think many of us in the ANC,

and as we have admitted publicly,

we admit that in the past,

we have spoken about there have been

perceptions of corruption,

now we know that there has been real

corruption, and this...

What do you mean "now"?

When did you find out?

I mean, we all knew about it

and we do not even live in South

Africa.

No, no, no, of course.

But when it really started coming

out in facts and figures,

putting figures to how

much had been stolen,

it came out when the e-mails started

emerging, and then we realised

that this is no longer perception,

this is real, and it is when a good

number of us then started

talking against corruption,

so yes, we may be complicit in not

having spoken out at an earlier

time, but once we knew

the facts and figures,

we have now stood on our two feet

and we have been speaking

against it, and that is what has

buoyed the mood in the country.

People are saying, now we know

there has been so much corruption,

we now know the figures

and the amounts and the people,

now action is going to be taken,

and it is that that we should focus

attention on, and say,

what does the future portend?

The future is about taking action

against people who have been harming

the interests of our

people as a whole.

So, we all know that you've got

to take certain steps to restore

confidence in South Africa,

build up business.

You have been talking

to lots of people here.

Are you the right person to do that,

for a country where you have got one

in four people unemployed,

youth unemployment particularly

is very, very high,

people are struggling,

17 million out of 52 million people

are on some kind of state benefits.

You know, the cost of living

is extremely high, and you are,

to put it bluntly, an extremely

wealthy businessman.

Are you really that kind of person

who can empathise with the plight

of the ordinary South African?

Throughout my life, even as a trade

unionist and a student leader,

I have always espoused principles

that seek to advance the interests

of our people as a whole,

and the confidence that has been

invested in me by the membership

of the African National Congress,

and by the people of South Africa,

puts me in a position where I have

to act in the interests of advancing

the lives of the people of South

Africa.

So yes, as a collective,

working together with others,

we are well-positioned.

You are well positioned, are you?

I believe I am well positioned.

So there you are, the son

of a rural policeman,

you know, trained as a lawyer,

here you are in your mid-60s,

and Nelson Mandela wanted

you to be his successor,

it did not happen,

and so you went into business,

and you are a beneficiary

of the Black Economic Empowerment

programme and that makes some people

feel a bit uncomfortable.

I put it to you that Moeletsi Mbeki,

an academic and younger brother

of former president Thabo Mbeki,

says, Cyril Ramaphosa was the person

who wrote the black economic

empowerment law in South Africa.

This is the main driver

of corruption in this country.

Cyril Ramaphosa wrote the law that

created this mayhem of corruption

under the cloak of black

advancement, making it less credible

that he can be the man

to tackle cronyism.

A long quote, I know,

but one that really makes the point.

Well, that is the view

of an analyst, somebody who sits

on the sidelines, and many of us

are involved in doing the actual

work, and have been doing

so for many, many years.

And many of the things

that we are involved in are working

to advance the lives of ordinary

people, and none of the things that

I have done in business have been

aimed at, have been corrupt

activities, they have been purely

business engagements,

and right now, I am well

positioned, as president

of the African National Congress,

to advance the policies

of the African National Congress,

which are aimed at improving

the lives of the people

of South Africa.

That, for me, is non-negotiable.

It is something that I am

going to make sure that it happens.

However, you say, yes,

there is no corruption around

the business activities that

you have been involved in,

however, as a non-executive director

of Lonmin, which owned the mine

in Marikana, which in 2012,

the miners went on strike,

34 of them were shot dead by police,

it did taint your image, didn't it?

Mm-hm.

Do you accept that?

Mm-hm.

Do you accept that it

did taint your image,

because you were seen

as being on the side of business

interests, and there

were the striking miners?

Yes, it did, but what I was seeking

to do was to prevent further deaths

from taking place.

And the commission that was

instituted looked at everything that

I did.

The Farlam Commission absolutely

said you were not at all complicit

or responsible, but there

have been criticisms,

for example, that you did not

apologise at the time

for the deaths, and in fact,

you issued an apology last year,

but this is what the lawyer

for the arrested and wounded miners,

Andries Nkoma, has said.

Your apology is contemptuous

and opportunistic,

because it was issued

when you were seeking the leadership

of the ANC.

That is essentially the point.

Well, that is also the view

of someone who is sitting

on the other side.

But it is a valid observation?

Well, I am working

with Winnie Mandela.

Winnie Mandela, who has been most

concerned about the interests

of our people, and I am working

with her, we are going to go

to the widows of the miners

who were killed, and we are going

to engage with them,

and watch this space and see

what is going to ensue from there.

Financial reparations,

compensation and that kind of thing?

Well, government is working on that,

because they have instituted

a lawsuit against the government for

the deaths of their breadwinners,

and that is in process.

I think a good outcome

will come out of all of this.

All right.

So here you are leading the ANC

and you say you want to bring

South Africa back again,

but you lost votes in the last

elections and we saw Julius Malema,

one of the, you know,

bright lights of the ANC, leaving

and setting up his own party,

the Economic Freedom Fighters.

We have seen the ANC

haemorrhage votes to both

the Democratic Alliance

under Mmusi Maimane,

and also the Economic

Freedom Fighters.

How are you going to rebuild

people's confidence in the ANC,

because there are those who say,

look, it has been in power

since 1994, a spell

in opposition could do it good?

This moment that we have arrived at,

with a new leadership,

with the new policies that have come

out of the conference with,

gives us a great opportunity

to address the doubts that many

people had in the past.

In the last election,

yes, we did lose votes,

because they thought

that the ANC had lost its way.

And it has?

The ANC is back.

The ANC is back with a bang,

and that is being registered

in the hearts and the

minds of our people.

Many people, right now,

are saying, our ANC is back,

we have got a leadership

that is going to take us forward,

and many people, Zeinab, are saying,

I did not vote in the last election,

but right now, we have

got a new leadership,

I have my vote in my hand and I'm

going to register it in favour

of the ANC.

So there is a new mood

in the country, and it is not

euphoria, it is based on principle.

People are saying the ANC is back

to the values and principles that it

espoused in the past,

values that were subscribed

to by Nelson Mandela

and Oliver Tambo and many others.

As things stand, President Jacob

Zuma is due to make the state

of the nation address

in early February.

Yes, ma'am.

Is he going to make that state

of address or is it going to be

President Cyril Ramaphosa?

That is part of the transitional

issues that we are dealing with.

Could you give me a straight answer?

Will it be President Ramaphosa

or President Zuma who makes

the state of the nation address?

President Ramaphosa is president

of the African National Congress

and deputy president

of the republic.

As things stand.

As things stand, that is what it is.

The state of the nation address,

will it be you or Zuma?

We have got to deal

with the reality at hand right now.

And the reality at hand is that

President Zuma is the president

of the republic.

We are dealing with matters that

have to address the transition,

and let's see what happens,

as time goes on.

Deputy President Cyril Ramaphosa

of South Africa, thank you very much

indeed for coming on HARDtalk.

Thank you very much,

Zeinab, thank you.

Wonderful talking to you.