Ezekiel Lol Gatkuoth - Minister of Petroleum, South Sudan HARDtalk

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it's time for HARDtalk.

Welcome to HARDtalk.

I'm Stephen Sackur.

South Sudan's first six and a half

years as an independent country have

been an unmitigated disaster.

A brutal civil conflict,

a broken economy, famine and

epic levels of corruption.

On any and every measure,

the world's newest

country is failing.

And this despite some of the largest

oil reserves in sub-Saharan Africa.

My guest today is South Sudan's

Minister of Petroleum,

Ezekiel Lol Gatkuoth.

Who or what can deliver

South Sudan's people from despair?

Ezekiel Lol Gatkuoth,

welcome to HARDtalk.

Thank you for having me here.

As I just said, South Sudan

is just over six years

old as an independent nation.

In your worst nightmares,

could you have imagined just how

horrible the situation

in your country would be today?

Well, thank you for

having me on this show.

The Republic of South Sudan gained

independence in July 2011.

On the 9th of July.

Of course, we are transitioning

from a liberation movement

to now running a state, and running

a state is a serious business.

And we are working together

with the president of the Republic

of South Sudan to forge a better

future for the people

of South Sudan.

But the direction of travel

is backwards, not forwards.

I mean, since 2013, you've been

stuck in this brutal,

bloody civil conflict

inside the country.

And for you and people like you,

who were the generation very much

involved in achieving independence,

that hope, that reconciliation

and unity that we saw expressed

around the time of independence,

it's completely disappeared.

It is because there are individuals

who are struggling for power,

and that is why we are

in the situation.

There are some individuals

who are interested in power,

in the state of running the people

of South Sudan.

He was interested in being

on the top, by actually

being the president of the

Republic of South Sudan.

You mentioned Riek Machar,

currently in exile.

He fled the country in fear

of his life in 2016.

He was your political

mentor in many ways.

You backed him for

an awful long time.

You then jumped ship

and decided to throw your lot

with President Salva Kiir.

But what we have at the centre

of South Sudan is a fundamental

division between the Dinka

and Nuer people.

There is an agreement

that we are implementing.

An agreement was signed

in 2015, August.

We are implementing that agreement.

That agreement is being implemented.

And what we are doing together

with President Salva Kiir Mayardit

is to bring to those who are not

part of the agreement

to be on board.

And then from there,

we transition from where we are now

to a better future for all of us.

Better future sounds great as words,

but look at reality.

The civil conflict continues.

The latest human rights watch report

just came out for 2018,

looking back at 2017.

It talks about government and rebel

forces committing egregious abuses

that qualify as war crimes,

looting and

attacks on civilians,

destruction of civilian property,

arbitrary arrests and detention,

torture, enforced disappearances,

rape, including gang rapes,

and extrajudicial executions.

So whatever you tell me

about an agreement in Juba,

on the ground across your country,

civilians are being

terrorised and killed.

Let me tell you these are reports,

but the reality on the ground now,

there is peace in Juba.

Actually you can even party

into the night,

until two, three in the morning.

There is peace in Juba.

80% of the whole

country is peaceful.

It is not like what it used to be

in 2013, 2014, 2015.

One third of your entire population

has been forced to flee their homes.

One third!

Yes, this is the report.

I'm telling you...

You're going to talk to me

about parties in Juba

but right across your nation,

there are people who have fled

in fear of their lives.

Tens, hundreds of thousands

living in IDP camps.

And those are the ones who haven't

fled across the country's borders

into the neighbouring states.

That is what I'm telling.

This is a report.

But what I can tell you.

Of course there are people

in Uganda, there are people

in Ethiopia, there are people

who are in Kenya and in Sudan,

because of the war that we had

in 2013 and also in 2016.

And what we are doing...

Of course, propaganda is there.

People are being told that

if you do not leave,

the government is coming

to kill you.

All we are doing now

and the people are coming back

because we are actually telling them

that actual dialogue.

Peace will come within our cities.

Minister, I have to confess I'm

shocked that you say these reports

of the crisis continuing

are nothing but propaganda.

We know that even in the last year,

your country has been

at risk of mass famine

because of the insecurity

across the country.

And more than half of all your

people, according to the independent

international aid agencies,

are living with hunger right now.

What I'm actually telling you...

I'm not disputing the report.

I'm basically saying, yes,

there are cases that

are actually real...

This is the breakdown of a nation.

This isn't sporadic cases

in far-flung corners of South Sudan.

This is a nation that has

failed, that is broken.

We have not failed.

We have a government

that is functioning.

We have a president,

a presidency and a cabinet

that is functioning.

Of course you know

the situation that we are in,

it is our own making.

We, the leaders of the Republic

of South Sudan, we are actually

working to fix it together,

all of us.

President Salva Kiir,

he is leading the nation.

And I can assure you we will

actually get out of this.

It is not unique to South Sudan.

In Africa as a whole,

we went through these

transitions, and then we had

this liberation syndrome.

Some people will say I can

run it better than you,

and the power struggle will come.

If you look at it, it is actually

is a power struggle.

In 2005 until 2013,

there was no war in the country.

But when Riek Machar made it

clear he was going to run

and he was dismissed along with some

ministers, that's

when the war started.

It won't wash, will it, Minister,

blaming Riek Machar for all of this?

I mean, look at what

the international community has said

in the very recent past

about whom they see as culpable

for the total breakdown that

I described in your country today.

The UN Secretary-General Antonio

Guterres said at a meeting

recently on South Sudan,

"I have never seen a political

elite with so little

interest in the well-being

of its own people."

Yes, I can...

Well, of course, this is his opinion

and I can agree with his...

What he is saying, he might be

right in some cases.

But not everybody who is

actually not putting

the people's interest at heart.

And that's why we are here in this

government, to deliver it.

Regardless of the challenges

we are getting, because there

are people who are actually tried

to drag us down.

But we are actually moving forward.

We're moving forward

by bringing peace.

We have an agreement...

But to move forward,

you have to be honest

about the situation...

I'm very honest.

You've dismissed much

of what I reported is happening

on the ground in the country.

And it is interesting that

when Mark Green, the head of USAID,

one of the key donor countries

looking to help in South Sudan,

when he saw Salva Kiir recently,

he emerged and sources close to him

said, and I'm quoting from the US

media, that he was shocked to be

lied to so brazenly by the president

about the situation in the country.

And he then, that is Mr Green,

said that he would undertake

a complete review of American policy

toward South Sudan.

The Americans have given

up on your government.

This is his opinion.

And we respect that.

The US will continue to be an ally.

Of course, they have been a bit

difficult with us recently.

But why do you think

that is, Minister?

Why do you think that is,

that they oppose an arms embargo,

they have put sanctions on two

of your most senior generals

and the Minister of Information,

accusing them all of outrageous

levels of corruption?

Why do you think the

Americans are doing this?

You know, we are really

concerned about the decisions

that the Americans are taking.

America is an ally, a friend to us,

and to the people of South Sudan.

But for them, you don't

give sanctions to your

friends, you don't...

You sanction your friends

if they are betraying

the interest of your own people.

You advise your friends.

You don't sanction them.

Well, there comes a point

where you can be friends no longer

with people who are consistently

betraying their own people.

It is very unfortunate

if America takes that route.

For us, we will continue to reach

out to the support of the US.

They have been supporting us,

we are not denying that.

But again, Minister,

let's pick away at the specifics.

You tell me that, you know,

your government is committed

to reconciliation, unity

and building a country.

Why is it that in the recent talks

in Addis Ababa, under the auspices

of the Intergovernmental Authority

on Development, a regional effort

to get the South Sudan

conflict under control

and stabilise the situation.

The government side, your side,

simply walked away from the talks

when the opposition put together

a proposal on a national

unity government.

Actually it was the opposite.

President Salva Kiir

is actually committed

It means an actual terms that those

who are not part of the agreement

should be brought on board,

and what we are proposing

is that we implement the agreement.

How do we bring them on board?

By actually expanding

the government.

President Salva Kiir Mayardit...

The presidency remains intact.

Below the presidency,

you create the layer.

Bottom line is, as Secretary-General

of one of the opposition groups,

the South Sudan national movement

for change, said, the government

delegation simply wasn't willing

to end the violence in South Sudan

because in the end,

there are too many interests,

particularly in the military,

who see a profit to be made.

And out of the continued conflict.

It is the opposite.

We are interested...

And that's all we came up

with a proposal, a proposal

can include everybody.

When you are actually including,

you don't exclude, you include.

So that you can actually

be part of the process

to implement the agreement.

So that everybody is party

to this peace agreement.

And when we implement,

we implement together

to a democrat election.

The problem is, as I keep saying,

on the ground, the reality doesn't

match your very optimistic

and confident words.

And that matters to you than most

people but you're the minister

responsible for oil and gas

production, and as we see,

right now, oil and gas production

is way down on the levels

it was even before independence

because of the chronic insecurity

across the oilfields.

My vision as the minister

of petroleum is to...

Just tell me.

Barrels per day right now.

We are producing 143,000

barrels a day...

Do you know what figure

was before independence?

480,000 barrels a day.

It's a quarter!

You're producing roughly a quarter

of the oil that the region produced

before the civil conflict began.

Now the good news is that we are

actually going to be reaching

200,000 barrels a day by the end

of this year, and we are

going to reopen oilfields

in a former unity state.

And then now, with the current

oil prices going up,

and we will pray that it continues

to actually remain the same, we

are actually going getting better.

are actually getting better.

Our financial situation last year,

this year is better than last year

and we're moving forward.

Interesting you talk

about the financial situation.

Is it true, as a deputy oil minister

in your government told Reuters News

Agency at the end of last year,

is it true that your government

still owes the Sudanese government

in Khartoum $1.3 billion in back

payments dating back to oil

production for 2012?

This is the deputy minister

of finance and planning.

Well, it is true that we are owing

them, because when we split

the country into two in 2011,

we realised we are taking 75%

of the oil and we have agreed as two

countries, in the spirit

of the viability of the two

countries, we have agreed

to give them $3 billion.

And you still owe them 1.3 billion.

And we are paying them.

We are actually paying monthly.

Forgive me.

1.3 billion represents what,

possibly eight years

of forward revenues

from your entire oil sector?

What we have done, we translate this

3 billion into barrels.

How much we will actually

pay them a barrel.

We are paying them $15 a barrel

and is a we have been paying

for the last three and a half years.

I have extended it when I

came in office 2016.

I have extended it for another

two and a half years,

and we are actually paying

and we will continue to pay them.

So despite the notion

of independence in your

country since 2011,

you're actually being squeezed

by the Sudanese government.

They're taking a huge proportion

of the income of every barrel of oil

and they also control the shipment

because it's got to go through their

through their country to get

to a port.

In essence, Sudan has a huge amount

of control over your oil business.

Of course it is true

that they are transporting our oil

and we'll continue to transport our

oil from Sudan.

Remember, we are one country

and we are one people

who will continue to be

friends and brothers...

Excuse me, but you just fought a 50

year war against these people

and now you're admitted to me that

Khartoum, in essence,

has control of your key industry.

Because the pipeline is transporting

our oil to Port Sudan,

and we will continue

to use that pipeline.

You know, politics is politics.

The people of Sudan and South Sudan

who remain to be there,

and that's what we have realised

as two countries, we have

to co-operate so that we can

transport the oil.

It is actually going to benefit

the people of South Sudan

and the people of Sudan.

Bottom line, Minister,

when you desperately appeal

for international investment

in your oil and gas sector,

the big players like Exxon Mobil

and others, they look

at what is happening on the ground,

they are looking at the chronic

insecurity, they look

at the relationship with Sudan,

they look at the failure to deliver

on infrastructure or any semblance

of the government in your country

and they say "We don't

want any part of that."

It is actually the opposite.

From here, I will be

flying to Paris.

They met my president last month

in Juba and they are interested.

This is a British-based company

and a state owned oil

company of Kuwait...

Strictly and explicitly set last

year that they were putting any

ambitions they had in South Sudan

on hold because of the

insecurity in your country.

It is the opposite.

I was the one who told them

that we need to reach an agreement

as soon as possible.

We all know you want them.

The question is do they want you?

They want me.

I'm the one with the oil.

You're the one with the oil

and you only produce a quarter

of what you did produce before,

a vast amount of the revenue goes

to the Sudanese government.

Your government

is crippled in debts.

I like the smile, but you've

nothing to smile about.

By the way, you are forgetting

that the NPC, the Chinese

state owned company,

is in South Sudan.

The Malaysian oil state owned

company is in South Sudan.

Oh, believe me, I'm not forgetting.

I'm also very aware when people look

at investing in your oil

business, they see nothing

but danger, risk, insecurity.

Let me tell you it is

actually the opposite.

What we have decided so far,

the president of the Republic

decreed a petroleum security.

Three layers that is responsible

for the protection of oil

workers and also oilfields.

Oilfields, as we speak now,

they are 100% secure.

The kidnapping that

happened last year,

it was actually a wake-up call.

So that we can beef up our security.

What I can actually tell you openly

and honestly, oilfields

and oil workers are secure.

That's why we...

They are interested and we are going

to reach an agreement

on block B-1 and B-2 soon.

You're an optimist.

Let us just assume for a moment that

you are right and that you can ramp

up oil production in a very dramatic

way over the next

couple of years or so.

The problem with that is that

there's been the question over

the oil revenues will go,

and we know the way

in which independent experts have

analysed governance in South Sudan,

we know that the vast

proportion of that money

will simply go to the elites,

the warlords, the top officials

in the military and the government

who siphon off vast amounts of cash

in endemic corruption.

Corruption is not unique

to South Sudan alone.

It is everywhere in the world.

What we are looking for in

South Sudan is strong institutions.

If we could have institutions that

can fight corruption

and we are actually basically

appealing to friends and partners

that, "let us work together to build

these institutions so that corrupt

officials can be fought

using these institutions."

Why would anybody believe

you in South Sudan are

capable of doing that?

John Pendergrast, who is one

of the most respected analysts

of corruption in Africa.

He runs the Enough Project,

has described the South Sudan

government as "a den of thieves."

He says it's a kleptocratic

winner-take-all state

with institutions

that have been hijacked

by government officials,

commercial collaborators

for the purposes of self enrichment.

That is his report and his opinion.

In that report, I...

There are a lot of loopholes.

He did not do a thorough

job in researching.

I'm not saying that there's not

corruption in South Sudan.

There is corruption in South Sudan.

There is corruption here

in the United Kingdom.

Even in the US, there is corruption.

The difference between

the United Kingdom and USA

and South Sudan is because here,

there are institutions

built to deal with that.

And that is what we are actually

doing as a government.

We have a policy of zero tolerance

on corruption, but we have...

Oh, come on.

Zero tolerance.

With respect, that's absurd

in South Sudan today.

We do.

We do.

I mean, corruption is everywhere.

And just to take one example

which comes back to what happens

to the oil revenues, the Sentry,

a sort of activist website

looking at corruption,

made a special study of what happens

to the vast amount of oil revenues

which end up going into "Security,

military and intelligence

institutions" in Sudan.

It seems it's more than half

of all the oil revenues.

And according to the Sentry,

there is no way to discover exactly

where the money goes.

There is no transparency whatsoever.

"The military involves a large

and fabricated patronage system.

"The military involves a large

and complicated patronage system.

There is little oversight of payroll

expenses with leading

security ministries rarely

reporting their expenditures.

the salaries of soldiers.

In many case, military

commanders have stolen

the salaries of soldiers.

There are tens of thousands

of ghost soldiers."

Strong institutions actually

fight this corruption.

But do you acknowledge

that is what is happening today

today in your country.

Given what you are actually

reading now, transparency.

If you don't have a strong system

to even actually look at the budget,

work with the Ministry of finance,

work with the parliament,

so that you know...

The Ministry of petroleum,

it is very clear how many barrels

we are producing a day.

We know the price of

the oil worldwide...

The issue is where

does the money go?

This is where the budget matters.

You need to follow this.

The minister of finance

and parliament so you can actually

know and follow where the money

goes, because some

are actually used for education,

health care and salaries.

You slashed education and health

care budgets in recent years.

You know that.

And the one budget that has not been

slashed, I come back to it,

is the security budget.

And there is absolutely no way

of knowing for most of the money

in that security budget

actually ends up.

Stephen, as in anywhere

in the world, you must make sure

you protect the lives of the people

of South Sudan by empowering

your security force.

As we've discussed, there is no

security in South Sudan today

today but let me just...

We're almost out of time

and I think this is the right

time to ask you this.

How do you think the generation,

and that your generation,

the generation who delivered

and oversaw the independence

of South Sudan and how do

you think your generation will be

judged by history?

Well, definitely history

will be written.

And for us, I participated

in the first war...

I mean, the second war of 1983.

We wanted to be...

We went wrong as leaders but we're

here to fix and we will make sure

that we fix it together as South

Sudanese.

That's what we want

a national dialogue.

So we talk to ourselves,

our South Sudanese.

We find out what went wrong

and how do we fix it.

That's why we have an agreement

that is being implemented.

We need to implement this agreement.

And those who are interested

in running for offices,

whether you want to be president,

whatever you want to be...

You wait until the right time comes

and then from there, you run.

OK, we have to end it there.

Ezekiel Lol Gatkuoth,

thank you very much.

Thank you.