Browse content similar to 29/10/2015. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Hello and welcome to BBC Parliament's live coverage from the | :00:08. | :00:13. | |
House of Commons. In an hour the leader of the house Chris Grayling | :00:14. | :00:17. | |
and will announce the forthcoming business in the chamber and take | :00:18. | :00:21. | |
questions from backbenchers. The main business is a backbench | :00:22. | :00:25. | |
business debate on the effects of the government proposed reforms to | :00:26. | :00:29. | |
tax credits. Remember to join me for a round-up of the day in both Houses | :00:30. | :00:34. | |
of Parliament at 11pm this evening. First, we have questions to the | :00:35. | :00:39. | |
Transport Secretary Patrick McLoughlin and his team of | :00:40. | :00:40. | |
ministers. Order. Transport the London bill, | :00:41. | :01:00. | |
Lords revival motion. I beg to move. Motion to be taken what day? Very | :01:01. | :01:07. | |
appropriately Thursday, the 5th of November. Thursday the 5th of | :01:08. | :01:12. | |
November. Order, questions to the Secretary of State the transport. | :01:13. | :01:19. | |
Question number one. The current difference between laboratory | :01:20. | :01:26. | |
testing and real emissions. The agreement we secured in Brussels to | :01:27. | :01:33. | |
introduce real-world testing in 2017 is an important milestone. We will | :01:34. | :01:39. | |
continue to press the EU for a comprehensive approach on emissions | :01:40. | :01:43. | |
testing that restores confidence and the livers climb it -- and delivers | :01:44. | :01:57. | |
climb it objectives -- climate. The UK's managing director said the | :01:58. | :02:03. | |
target of 2016 might not be deliverable. How can he assure the | :02:04. | :02:10. | |
house that this can be achieved by 2016? Volkswagen have acted | :02:11. | :02:17. | |
disgracefully in this whole episode. I will be looking to them | :02:18. | :02:22. | |
to ensure they live up to the expectations they promised | :02:23. | :02:24. | |
originally and will be working to make sure that happens. Does he | :02:25. | :02:33. | |
agree that Volkswagen has shattered trust in motor vehicle testing and | :02:34. | :02:37. | |
we need to move at pace to real-world testing to restore | :02:38. | :02:40. | |
confidence in the public? I do agree. I think both when I appeared | :02:41. | :02:49. | |
before the Select Committee, just a few weeks ago, I made that position | :02:50. | :02:54. | |
abundantly clear. I think progress made yesterday is progress made | :02:55. | :02:56. | |
yesterday is progressing the right direction. The still unfolding | :02:57. | :03:04. | |
scandal of Volkswagen has lifted the lid on the more widespread problem | :03:05. | :03:07. | |
about emissions testing which was known about for a long time. Why | :03:08. | :03:12. | |
didn't the Department act sooner in doing something about it? It has two | :03:13. | :03:18. | |
B said that's the honourable lady says it was known about a long time, | :03:19. | :03:23. | |
but in truth if one looks at the amount of diesel sold in 2001, it | :03:24. | :03:41. | |
was 460,000, 17%. In 2009, -- 815,000, if it was known about for | :03:42. | :03:46. | |
some time it is not this government but the previous that is culpable. | :03:47. | :04:02. | |
The new London taxi is zero. I have travelled in one of those taxes. | :04:03. | :04:07. | |
That is part of the answer we will continue to support our programme of | :04:08. | :04:16. | |
support for some 1.2 million cars have been affected across the UK and | :04:17. | :04:22. | |
it is important to be mindful of drivers, they are facing a higher | :04:23. | :04:28. | |
road tax. Does he agree the financial implications should we | :04:29. | :04:34. | |
give in to Volkswagen and Audi for this disgraceful thing that | :04:35. | :04:38. | |
happened? I do not think there will be an increase in taxes, we have | :04:39. | :04:46. | |
made that clear. But it is something that VW will have to addressing | :04:47. | :04:53. | |
course. Is the reality, though, that Biddestone's statements are leaving | :04:54. | :04:59. | |
motorists concerned about air quality number wise. Can he clear | :05:00. | :05:03. | |
the air on one point and that is what happened at the EU technical | :05:04. | :05:07. | |
committee yesterday. It was not just about setting a timetable for new | :05:08. | :05:12. | |
cars to conform with existing emissions, did it not also involve | :05:13. | :05:18. | |
permission to breach those limits by 50%, that being open ended | :05:19. | :05:22. | |
permission, and isn't that what the UK representative voted for? What | :05:23. | :05:27. | |
was important was because agreement for real-world emissions testing | :05:28. | :05:31. | |
across Europe and this was something... This has been objected | :05:32. | :05:38. | |
to the pass. We pressed for it and I am pleased we achieved it. He said | :05:39. | :05:43. | |
it is not as much or as fast as he would like, but I would say we have | :05:44. | :05:49. | |
made more progress in the six months of this new Conservative government | :05:50. | :05:51. | |
than ever made in the last government. The government remains | :05:52. | :06:04. | |
committed to delivering the vital benefits these projects will provide | :06:05. | :06:07. | |
to passengers as part of the replanning of this programme I | :06:08. | :06:13. | |
expect Sir Peter Hendy to ensure schemes deliver value for money. | :06:14. | :06:19. | |
With the minister agree the tripling of costs to over 2.5 billion pounds | :06:20. | :06:25. | |
is breathtaking and will he take the time to learn lessons from Scotland | :06:26. | :06:29. | |
where major capital projects are coming in on time and budget largely | :06:30. | :06:35. | |
as a result of proper planning and good contract negotiation, so | :06:36. | :06:39. | |
further public money is not thrown away in this cavalier fashion? I am | :06:40. | :06:48. | |
always willing to learn lessons from wherever they are valid, be that | :06:49. | :06:52. | |
Scotland or anywhere else and I will not look for advice on providing | :06:53. | :07:03. | |
tram systems! What I would say is some of these programmes and the | :07:04. | :07:09. | |
honourable lady is a member of the PAC, and therefore was in the | :07:10. | :07:19. | |
position of hearing evidence by Mark Carne and the Permanent Secretary | :07:20. | :07:24. | |
and some have run over budget that they are huge schemes, very | :07:25. | :07:27. | |
important schemes, and making the railway system modern for the 21st | :07:28. | :07:34. | |
century is important. As regards value for money of the great Western | :07:35. | :07:39. | |
mainline, would he agree electrification is one factor that | :07:40. | :07:43. | |
makes the reopening of the station a more valuable project that needs to | :07:44. | :07:50. | |
remain high on the agenda. I am sure it will remain high on the agenda as | :07:51. | :07:54. | |
long as my honourable friend presses for it. | :07:55. | :07:59. | |
I look forward to discussing it with my honourable friend and see if we | :08:00. | :08:06. | |
can help my honourable friend get what she wishes. Electrification of | :08:07. | :08:10. | |
the great Western and Valley lines are two sides of the same coin, with | :08:11. | :08:15. | |
both meaning a great deal to the South Wales economy. What | :08:16. | :08:19. | |
discussions as he had with the Welsh Government counterpart on the | :08:20. | :08:22. | |
delivery date for electrification of the Valley lines? We made money | :08:23. | :08:31. | |
available to the Welsh Assembly, 125 million. I have met with Edwina Hart | :08:32. | :08:36. | |
and discuss the programme and I am in contact with my right honourable | :08:37. | :08:40. | |
friend the Secretary of State for Wales and it is a matter for the | :08:41. | :08:43. | |
assembly to come forward with their plans. I congratulate him for | :08:44. | :08:48. | |
confirmation the Midland Main line will be electrified to Kettering by | :08:49. | :08:53. | |
2019. Can he assure the house the lessons learned from the great | :08:54. | :08:56. | |
Western electrification will be applied to that line so it can be | :08:57. | :09:01. | |
delivered quickly and efficiently? A neat body swerve to ensure his | :09:02. | :09:06. | |
question is in order. The textbook example to colleagues! | :09:07. | :09:15. | |
Was that the answer, Mr Speaker?! I have now forgotten what the | :09:16. | :09:22. | |
question was! Mr Speaker, I certainly agree with | :09:23. | :09:29. | |
my honourable friend. It is very important to re-establish the | :09:30. | :09:34. | |
Midland mainline electrification. It is a line I use regularly. Lessons | :09:35. | :09:42. | |
need to be learned. Work had already started. What was important about | :09:43. | :09:49. | |
the plan that is being developed is that we look at the whole line | :09:50. | :09:52. | |
development because there are certain things on the Midland Main | :09:53. | :09:55. | |
line that can be done to increase speed and that is important as well. | :09:56. | :10:07. | |
One reason for extra cost is compensation. Is it in the public | :10:08. | :10:16. | |
interest to publish those payments, and those spent on infrastructure | :10:17. | :10:20. | |
not those lining the pockets of shareholders? We make the best we | :10:21. | :10:24. | |
can with the huge investment we put into railways and I am proud of the | :10:25. | :10:29. | |
improvements that have taken place on the great Western. | :10:30. | :10:34. | |
Electrification is part of it. Completion of the station and the | :10:35. | :10:39. | |
flyover that happens so the line is no longer held up by freight trains | :10:40. | :10:45. | |
has been an improvement and serves his those in the south-west | :10:46. | :10:53. | |
incredibly well. Question three, if you please, Mr Speaker. Network Rail | :10:54. | :11:04. | |
assesses risks on crossings. The UK has the best level crossing safety | :11:05. | :11:12. | |
record in the EU. There is work to reduce that risk still further. | :11:13. | :11:20. | |
What a lot of waffle after the Beech Hill tragedy in 2012 Network Rail | :11:21. | :11:25. | |
said it would get rid of all level crossings in Bassetlaw on the East | :11:26. | :11:31. | |
Coast mainline. The public consultation on the schemes in order | :11:32. | :11:35. | |
to ensure it had taken place. And what has happened is the money has | :11:36. | :11:40. | |
been pulled. Will the minister meet Network Rail along with the | :11:41. | :11:43. | |
Chancellor to ensure that money is put back in. It is good for | :11:44. | :11:48. | |
business, the economy and safety and good for the people of Bassetlaw. | :11:49. | :11:54. | |
The honourable gentleman had the tragic accident that resulted in a | :11:55. | :12:01. | |
loss of life. After that the rail accident investigation board made | :12:02. | :12:04. | |
clear recommendations so that accident could not happen again and | :12:05. | :12:09. | |
I am told they have been implemented. He is referring to the | :12:10. | :12:14. | |
plan to close the 73 crossings on the East Coast mainline, and that | :12:15. | :12:19. | |
work has been progress. You cannot just shut off communities who rely | :12:20. | :12:23. | |
on those. He shakes his head. He should be in my job and have people | :12:24. | :12:28. | |
campaigning to keep crossings open. The work will happen and it is right | :12:29. | :12:31. | |
to focus on this and we will continue to fund the work, there is | :12:32. | :12:36. | |
no shortage of money for this and money will be spent on making the | :12:37. | :12:39. | |
crossing safer. We have committed to setting out the | :12:40. | :12:53. | |
government's plan for the HS2 phase to route and update the House before | :12:54. | :12:57. | |
the end of the year. I thank him for that answer and for the times he and | :12:58. | :13:00. | |
his officials have spent with me on the link. The initial justification | :13:01. | :13:06. | |
of the link was the depot in Wigan. That will not now be the. The only | :13:07. | :13:09. | |
justification that remains is a ten minute journey time saving two | :13:10. | :13:14. | |
trains north of Wigan. Will he confirm that if that stand-alone | :13:15. | :13:19. | |
link goes ahead it will be subject to a separate business case? We are | :13:20. | :13:28. | |
considering all of the recommendations made by Sir David | :13:29. | :13:30. | |
Higgins and his report, and he believes that the link to the West | :13:31. | :13:35. | |
Coast Main line is necessary, sooner rather than later. The alternative, | :13:36. | :13:40. | |
which would mean linking into the West Coast mainline, would mean | :13:41. | :13:44. | |
upgrading it to take these additional services, which can be | :13:45. | :13:49. | |
costly and disrupt, and would incur those dreadful words, replacement | :13:50. | :13:50. | |
bus services. Can I beg the team for bus services. Can I beg the team for | :13:51. | :13:58. | |
the moment of sanity in terms of HS2. Isn't it time, where we know | :13:59. | :14:05. | |
the latest evaluation says the cost will rise to ?116 billion, in a | :14:06. | :14:12. | |
country that can't even keep its National Health service running, | :14:13. | :14:15. | |
isn't it about time we look at this in a ruthless way, speak to Lord | :14:16. | :14:22. | |
Adonis, to get his act together. He calls himself the Godfather of HS2. | :14:23. | :14:29. | |
Let's invest in things that really work. That is not what huge was | :14:30. | :14:34. | |
saying when he was Secretary of State. -- what he was saying. I am | :14:35. | :14:40. | |
pleased Lord Adonis is engaging with the government. I think he needs to | :14:41. | :14:46. | |
ask themselves what are the costs of not progressing HS2 because it is | :14:47. | :14:52. | |
about the capacity and the great cities of the North, who are crying | :14:53. | :14:55. | |
out for the additional capacity and the wealth it will bring. HS2 should | :14:56. | :15:04. | |
have started and then or. On phase two, can I also appeal for sanity | :15:05. | :15:12. | |
and ask them to review the hybrid Bill process and the cruel and | :15:13. | :15:18. | |
unfair compensation scheme. The hybrid Bill process for phase one | :15:19. | :15:24. | |
has been convoluted, and painful. Not just for the MPs on the | :15:25. | :15:27. | |
committee but for the people affected by the project. It is | :15:28. | :15:32. | |
ironic we should be using such a snail-like process for something | :15:33. | :15:37. | |
that is supposed to be high-speed. It is not fit for purpose, and we | :15:38. | :15:44. | |
should be modernising it. I would pay tribute to the members who have | :15:45. | :15:50. | |
doggedly sat on the hybrid Bill committee and listened to petitions | :15:51. | :15:56. | |
brought before them in an admirable way. Many petitions did not reach | :15:57. | :15:59. | |
the committee because we reached agreement before it. As far as | :16:00. | :16:04. | |
building it from the North first, it would still end in London, which the | :16:05. | :16:10. | |
end it started the capacity is between Birmingham and London, as a | :16:11. | :16:23. | |
matter of urgency. Can the proposals be discussed to mitigate the impact | :16:24. | :16:32. | |
of HS2 on local residents and businesses in and around Donington? | :16:33. | :16:40. | |
We have not finalised that right, so we will be getting the House and up | :16:41. | :16:43. | |
date before the end of the year, when it would be appropriate to meet | :16:44. | :16:57. | |
with a number of communities. I will answer this question together with | :16:58. | :17:02. | |
number 11. We have made significant progress on increasing access. By | :17:03. | :17:06. | |
the end of the year we expect around 75% of rail journeys to start or end | :17:07. | :17:14. | |
at a step three station, and the programme will deliver 100 and 50 -- | :17:15. | :17:30. | |
150 step three station 's. I would like to thank the Minister. Every | :17:31. | :17:33. | |
member of the House would want to congratulate the friends of my local | :17:34. | :17:40. | |
station for the massive investment in the station, meaning it will be | :17:41. | :17:46. | |
totally accessible for disabled people from the end of next month. | :17:47. | :17:50. | |
That many of us are concerned about the slashing in funding by 42% of | :17:51. | :18:09. | |
very basic, providing ramps and very basic, providing ramps and | :18:10. | :18:12. | |
this? Why have they not changed this? Why have they not changed | :18:13. | :18:16. | |
their mind? I am aware of the new footbridge at the station that will | :18:17. | :18:19. | |
vastly improve facilities. I do not recognise what she says. The | :18:20. | :18:46. | |
and we are building upon the success and we are building upon the success | :18:47. | :18:48. | |
of it launched by the previous government. 1200 stations | :18:49. | :18:49. | |
benefited from the smaller scale benefited from the smaller | :18:50. | :18:51. | |
improvements, and to build on the improvements, and to build on the | :18:52. | :18:53. | |
success ?160 million of additional success ?160 million of additional | :18:54. | :18:54. | |
will extend the scheme to a further will extend the scheme to a further | :18:55. | :18:56. | |
68 stations. I'm sure you will join 68 stations. I'm sure you will join | :18:57. | :18:57. | |
University on its new Chancellor, University on its new Chancellor, | :18:58. | :18:58. | |
Taney Grey Thompson. She has to get herself up the impossibly deep | :18:59. | :19:05. | |
station, which Network Rail say they cannot do. Is this is what we should | :19:06. | :19:14. | |
expect by slashing the grant by 40%? The University will benefit from her | :19:15. | :19:17. | |
involvement. The bottom line is that the Department for Transport, and I | :19:18. | :19:28. | |
will look into this. The Department for Transport is committed, and we | :19:29. | :19:41. | |
are backing this programme, rolling out more disability access onto the | :19:42. | :19:44. | |
buses. This is a real measure of success on the programme has | :19:45. | :19:49. | |
generated a positive response. If we look at the findings of research at | :19:50. | :19:53. | |
stations which have benefited from the programme, those passengers with | :19:54. | :20:00. | |
physical impairment say they have a better travelling experience as a | :20:01. | :20:04. | |
result, going up considerably for people with wheelchairs. The | :20:05. | :20:14. | |
Minister will know that around 60% of disabled people live in a | :20:15. | :20:19. | |
household without a car, and disabled people use buses 20% more | :20:20. | :20:25. | |
than others. He will also know that 70% of local authorities have cut | :20:26. | :20:28. | |
funding since 2010, and more are on the way. Does he really understand | :20:29. | :20:33. | |
what impact these cuts will have on disabled people, and what proper | :20:34. | :20:40. | |
assessment has he done on the potential impact? May I welcome him | :20:41. | :20:49. | |
to his place. I am acutely aware of how important buses are afforded | :20:50. | :20:56. | |
disabled people and also -- buses are for disabled people, and also | :20:57. | :21:02. | |
others. Of course the implications for all bus users are considered | :21:03. | :21:14. | |
when planning budgets. I will answer this with questions 14 and 16. Since | :21:15. | :21:22. | |
2010 my Department has overseen the successful delivery of 50 miles of | :21:23. | :21:27. | |
electrified track. Construction is under way between Ealing Broadway | :21:28. | :21:32. | |
and Acton Main line, to remove the slow-moving freight trains of the | :21:33. | :21:36. | |
lines to enable high-frequency electric Crossrail trains. From | :21:37. | :21:43. | |
Paddington and through her constituency to Bristol, on the | :21:44. | :21:46. | |
Cardiff, Network Rail have installed a quarter of 14,000 Poles needed to | :21:47. | :21:51. | |
turn the centuries-old great Western line into a railway fit for the 21st | :21:52. | :22:00. | |
century. Can you ensure that the century. Can you ensure that the | :22:01. | :22:01. | |
electrification goes ahead on time, along with other improvements, to | :22:02. | :22:08. | |
deliver benefits quickly, as my constituents cannot wait until 2019 | :22:09. | :22:18. | |
and the start of Crossrail. I am sorry they cannot wait, they waited | :22:19. | :22:24. | |
for 13 years between 1997 and 2010, with nothing happening. Teesside has | :22:25. | :22:31. | |
had a hammering in this place over the past several weeks. But we are | :22:32. | :22:40. | |
resilient bunch, illustrated by the victory at Old Trafford last night! | :22:41. | :22:45. | |
We are top of the league on the elect of the nation task force list | :22:46. | :22:51. | |
from Northallerton to Middlesbrough. When might we see progress on this? | :22:52. | :23:00. | |
Can I congratulate him because I am also a football supporter, | :23:01. | :23:05. | |
supporting Derby County, so he has done incredibly well as far as that | :23:06. | :23:13. | |
is concerned. He makes a fair point, there is a huge amount of steel used | :23:14. | :23:16. | |
by Network Rail, and I know that by Network Rail, and I know that | :23:17. | :23:20. | |
helps his own constituency as well. I will look into the point he makes. | :23:21. | :23:30. | |
The Chancellor visited North Wales in July and said, he will look at | :23:31. | :23:37. | |
the case for electrification of the North line from Crewe to Wales. Can | :23:38. | :23:48. | |
fine for me what look at -- can he defined for me what look at means? | :23:49. | :24:03. | |
During 13 years, ten miles was achieved! So we will certainly look | :24:04. | :24:10. | |
at this. It is the way to go forward as far as railways are concerned. I | :24:11. | :24:13. | |
want to look at that along with other plans for CP six. As I | :24:14. | :24:22. | |
witnessed again last Monday, travellers going between Bolton and | :24:23. | :24:27. | |
Manchester at the quickly squashed like sardines. Can the Secretary of | :24:28. | :24:32. | |
State update the House as to how the engineering works on the line are | :24:33. | :24:40. | |
coming along, particularly as far as boring the tunnel? He is right as to | :24:41. | :24:48. | |
what we need to do, and I was going to refer to Farnworth tunnel. It has | :24:49. | :24:53. | |
had problems but has been completed. That will help to increase the | :24:54. | :24:57. | |
capacity on the line, and the changes he is calling for, the | :24:58. | :24:58. | |
increased capacity he is wanting is increased capacity he is wanting is | :24:59. | :25:05. | |
going to take place and I would like to pay tribute to all those people | :25:06. | :25:12. | |
who worked tirelessly to do the tunnel, which is coming in on time. | :25:13. | :25:23. | |
As most of the mainline will go on to the next period, can he make sure | :25:24. | :25:34. | |
the line is extended to improve services? He took evidence a few | :25:35. | :25:43. | |
weeks ago from the chief executive of Network Rail, and the pointy | :25:44. | :25:47. | |
makes about looking at the lines in total is important, and I will be in | :25:48. | :25:54. | |
mind his comments. I very much welcome the news that the | :25:55. | :25:59. | |
electrification of the trans-Pennine route is now full on track. -- a | :26:00. | :26:03. | |
contract. What are the new, improved benefits that it will bring the | :26:04. | :26:08. | |
looking substantial improvements as looking substantial improvements as | :26:09. | :26:23. | |
main cities in the North, main cities in the North, | :26:24. | :26:55. | |
Manchester, Leeds and Sheffield and Newcastle are concerned, and we will | :26:56. | :27:07. | |
bring more seats, more capacity, and it is | :27:08. | :27:22. | |
Is Network Rail to blame for the delay? Is it a symptom of the | :27:23. | :27:29. | |
privatised structure of our railway that causes the kind of | :27:30. | :27:34. | |
fragmentation that makes disasters like this inevitable? Can I stop my | :27:35. | :27:42. | |
welcoming him to his position. When he talks about privatised -- I | :27:43. | :27:47. | |
start. This is an example of where somebody who has not held | :27:48. | :27:50. | |
ministerial office can rightly forget everything that happened in | :27:51. | :27:55. | |
the past. I remember the Labour candidate for the Mayor of London | :27:56. | :28:03. | |
next year is said that one reason, we are able to invest record sums is | :28:04. | :28:09. | |
the revenue rail franchises bring in and premiums they pay. We are seeing | :28:10. | :28:13. | |
record investment in railways because of the way we are currently | :28:14. | :28:17. | |
running it. At the time it was nationalised we saw a declining | :28:18. | :28:22. | |
railway, a useless railway, not fit for purpose, something which the | :28:23. | :28:26. | |
party opposite wants to go back to. Question number seven. | :28:27. | :28:34. | |
Mr Speaker, I regularly meet with senior officials of Network Rail to | :28:35. | :28:37. | |
discuss key issues facing the company and recent meetings have | :28:38. | :28:45. | |
focused on this beta Hendy review and finance programme. Will he also | :28:46. | :28:51. | |
reiterate the commitment to the recommendation of the great Eastern | :28:52. | :28:56. | |
mainline task force that rings benefits to all counties and will he | :28:57. | :28:59. | |
ensure Network Rail delivers the necessary improvement? Yes, I am | :29:00. | :29:08. | |
glad to say we have been able to issue the invitation to tender as | :29:09. | :29:12. | |
far as the East Anglia franchise is concerned, something she has been | :29:13. | :29:16. | |
persistently should do. In seeing that we get services to Norwich in | :29:17. | :29:21. | |
90 minutes and Ipswich in 60 and that forms part of that tender. She | :29:22. | :29:25. | |
is right about the other improvements we need to look at and | :29:26. | :29:30. | |
she can take my assurance I will raise those with Sir Peter Hendy. | :29:31. | :29:37. | |
What recent discussions has he had with Network Rail regarding the | :29:38. | :29:41. | |
electrification of the Liverpool and Manchester line passes through | :29:42. | :29:47. | |
witness in Warrington? I think I need more direction as to the | :29:48. | :29:51. | |
question. There has been electrification between Liverpool | :29:52. | :29:54. | |
and Manchester and that is welcome and we have electric trains running | :29:55. | :29:57. | |
on that and soon there will be more running on that line. If he has a | :29:58. | :30:01. | |
more specific point perhaps he would like to write to me. During the | :30:02. | :30:07. | |
great storms in the West Country in 2014 we found our mainline route to | :30:08. | :30:11. | |
Cornwall floating in the sea. Can I ask him whether the peninsula | :30:12. | :30:18. | |
proposals, including the Okehampton link, whether they have come up with | :30:19. | :30:26. | |
any conclusions because it would add benefits to our economic potential | :30:27. | :30:32. | |
in Cornwall. I do remember this and I also remember the valiant way in | :30:33. | :30:36. | |
which Network Rail restored that link. They did an exceptional job in | :30:37. | :30:42. | |
difficult situations. Even at this stage I would like to add my thanks | :30:43. | :30:46. | |
to all who worked on that scheme in restoring that link. He is right | :30:47. | :30:51. | |
about the task force the Peninsula group have brought forward and we | :30:52. | :30:55. | |
are looking at their report and will have more to say on it once the | :30:56. | :31:03. | |
planning of CP five is undertaken. The welcome creation of the national | :31:04. | :31:08. | |
academy for a rail will help plug some of the skills shortage behind | :31:09. | :31:13. | |
many of the delays in electrification. What concerns does | :31:14. | :31:17. | |
he have earned does he share my concern the proposed 40% court to | :31:18. | :31:22. | |
this budget will undermine the ability of the Academy to deliver on | :31:23. | :31:28. | |
skills shortages? He is right about the academy at Northampton. I was | :31:29. | :31:32. | |
there some months ago and the minister from rail I it a few weeks | :31:33. | :31:36. | |
ago and it will play an important role in skills. It is up skilling | :31:37. | :31:44. | |
about what the whole industry has to do and bring it together and that is | :31:45. | :31:49. | |
one reason I asked the chairman of Crossrail to coordinate across the | :31:50. | :31:55. | |
transport sector about apprenticeships. Number eight, Mr | :31:56. | :32:04. | |
Speaker. On the 21st of August my right honourable friend the | :32:05. | :32:08. | |
Secretary of State announced the appointment of Terry Morgan the | :32:09. | :32:12. | |
chair of Crossrail to develop a transport and infrastructure skills | :32:13. | :32:16. | |
strategy. It will help ensure the industry has the right people and | :32:17. | :32:21. | |
skills to deliver the programme of transport infrastructure and | :32:22. | :32:27. | |
investment. I was recently fortunate to visit a college in basalt and | :32:28. | :32:32. | |
that has created a unique partnership between engineering and | :32:33. | :32:36. | |
construction companies to train the next generation of technicians. Can | :32:37. | :32:40. | |
I invite him to look at their model and perhaps visit with a view to | :32:41. | :32:46. | |
widening the range of opportunities across the whole country to give | :32:47. | :32:50. | |
young people the skills to deliver our plans? I will look at the | :32:51. | :32:56. | |
approach used by them and would like to visit. It is vital colleges and | :32:57. | :33:02. | |
universities work with employers to get the skills industry needs. It is | :33:03. | :33:07. | |
crucial in transport as more people are required. I would highlight the | :33:08. | :33:12. | |
work of the college to Terry Morgan as he develops the strategy. An | :33:13. | :33:17. | |
important element of the transport infrastructure is the road haulage | :33:18. | :33:26. | |
industry that helps the economy and the government. Driving up exports. | :33:27. | :33:32. | |
They reported a recruitment shortage of 54,000 in drivers which is likely | :33:33. | :33:37. | |
to increase because of the ageing population. What plans and | :33:38. | :33:42. | |
discussions has the minister had to ensure young people are encouraged | :33:43. | :33:49. | |
to take up opportunities? The industry has a responsibility to | :33:50. | :33:54. | |
bring new people in and I am aware of the recruitment challenges. There | :33:55. | :33:58. | |
is a retention issue. I have met with the industry and will continue | :33:59. | :34:02. | |
to do so. It is important this industry brings people into it. If | :34:03. | :34:07. | |
we did not have it performing to a high level of the country would | :34:08. | :34:10. | |
grind to a halt in a couple of days. Number nine, Mr Speaker. The | :34:11. | :34:17. | |
Chancellor announced in the 2015 budget report the government will | :34:18. | :34:21. | |
commission a study into the possibility of reopening Plymouth | :34:22. | :34:24. | |
airport. I am keen to determine the final form of the study and how best | :34:25. | :34:31. | |
to take it forward. As he knows Plymouth will be the focus of global | :34:32. | :34:36. | |
attention in relation to in five years' time Mayflower 2020, when the | :34:37. | :34:42. | |
Mayflower set sail to found the American colonies. Does he agree | :34:43. | :34:47. | |
that to be a major tourism area we need to make sure people can get to | :34:48. | :34:53. | |
Plymouth which means improved roads and railways and air links? That new | :34:54. | :35:00. | |
colony worked out quite well, certainly! He is right that | :35:01. | :35:11. | |
investment in this is vital to the south-west which is why we have | :35:12. | :35:15. | |
committed ?31 million on the great Western route. We heard about the | :35:16. | :35:19. | |
?40 million to fix Dawlish and the long overdue investment on the 830 | :35:20. | :35:26. | |
and a 303 which has long been a scourge of tourists and business | :35:27. | :35:30. | |
people driving to the south-west -- a 30. Recent improvements to | :35:31. | :35:40. | |
security measures include fencing, additional security guards, dogs, | :35:41. | :35:43. | |
improved CCTV including thermal imaging. In addition, the French | :35:44. | :35:48. | |
government has committed significant police resources to Calais. On a | :35:49. | :35:57. | |
summer business tour I met exporters having trouble getting goods into | :35:58. | :36:02. | |
Europe. Can he assure me and reddish businesses his department is doing | :36:03. | :36:05. | |
everything he can to make sure my businesses prosper in the future? | :36:06. | :36:12. | |
The channel link is vitally important to the whole UK economy | :36:13. | :36:16. | |
and particularly the haulage industry. I was at Folkestone and | :36:17. | :36:19. | |
saw some of the problems first-hand, in particular issues regarding | :36:20. | :36:25. | |
just-in-time delivery of parts to the motor industry for steel rails | :36:26. | :36:31. | |
produced in Scunthorpe which are exported to the continent and | :36:32. | :36:35. | |
lobster produced in my constituency that travels in trucks to France and | :36:36. | :36:44. | |
Spain. This summer the 23 my constituency was close for 32 days. | :36:45. | :36:49. | |
I'm grateful for the attention the ministerial team is giving to this | :36:50. | :36:54. | |
problem. Can he update me on the progress to avoid a repeat of the | :36:55. | :37:00. | |
closures this summer next summer. The key to preventing a recurrence | :37:01. | :37:05. | |
of the problems this summer is sorting out issues in France. I am | :37:06. | :37:12. | |
pleased to say the industrial dispute has been solved and we do | :37:13. | :37:16. | |
not have that additional problem. The government put in place a | :37:17. | :37:19. | |
contingency plan at Manston. It would have been there to relieve the | :37:20. | :37:23. | |
problem. It is important to look at how we can improve the situation | :37:24. | :37:26. | |
where we have disruption on the channel. Thank you Mr Speaker. I | :37:27. | :37:44. | |
have no representations on this topic. I look forward to a | :37:45. | :37:48. | |
productive engagement with all devolved administrations on this | :37:49. | :37:54. | |
subject. The minister may not be aware that part of the expensive | :37:55. | :38:01. | |
lobbying campaign undertaken on both sides, passengers using Scottish | :38:02. | :38:08. | |
airports are deliberately targeted. If the decision goes the wrong way | :38:09. | :38:12. | |
Scotland will be cut off from the rest of the world, it has been said, | :38:13. | :38:17. | |
which is scaremongering and will not happen. Depending on how the | :38:18. | :38:21. | |
decision goes, the potential of bringing benefit to Scotland and the | :38:22. | :38:24. | |
potential to cause damage to Scotland. Will he give an assurance | :38:25. | :38:31. | |
that when the time comes he will make representations to make sure | :38:32. | :38:34. | |
all members of this House play an equal part in the debate? The rest | :38:35. | :38:40. | |
-- the representations I have received underlines the importance | :38:41. | :38:45. | |
is of having good connectivity to international routes and that may be | :38:46. | :38:49. | |
through an improved additional runway capacity in the south-east. | :38:50. | :38:55. | |
We have been helped to that extent by giving help to the Dundee service | :38:56. | :38:59. | |
to allow passengers reach the capital. Would he agree that | :39:00. | :39:11. | |
expanding connectivity with the Scottish airports is one of the best | :39:12. | :39:14. | |
things we can do to strengthen the United Kingdom? The government will | :39:15. | :39:21. | |
be making an announcement in due course with response to the report | :39:22. | :39:32. | |
and it would be premature to comment on this stage. On the subject of | :39:33. | :39:43. | |
regional airports, agreeing about the commercial and economic and | :39:44. | :39:46. | |
social connectivity required, he said, and his words were, the slots | :39:47. | :39:50. | |
needed by Scottish airports and other airports that have lost them. | :39:51. | :39:55. | |
I hope we can address that. I want to reflect on that while considering | :39:56. | :39:59. | |
the whole report. Does he still agree about the development's | :40:00. | :40:04. | |
importance to Scotland's regional airports such as Dundee and has | :40:05. | :40:08. | |
there been progress on his thinking about root development and public | :40:09. | :40:13. | |
service obligations? I have always made it clear how important I view | :40:14. | :40:19. | |
the local airports. The regional international airports and how big a | :40:20. | :40:23. | |
part they play in the economic development of areas particularly in | :40:24. | :40:28. | |
Scotland. We need to look at aviation as a whole but the | :40:29. | :40:31. | |
representations I get is how important it is to get connectivity, | :40:32. | :40:36. | |
whether through Amsterdam, Paris, Frankfurt, or indeed to slots | :40:37. | :40:40. | |
available in the south-east. Given this recognition and importance, can | :40:41. | :40:46. | |
he confirm any decision on the development of a third runway at | :40:47. | :40:50. | |
Heathrow or development at Gatwick would not have to go through an | :40:51. | :40:55. | |
additional stage in the legislative process, a veto on Scottish MPs, as | :40:56. | :41:00. | |
suggested by the honourable member for Milton Keynes, and will... What | :41:01. | :41:11. | |
will he do to make sure this subject will be delivered from evil? It is | :41:12. | :41:15. | |
premature to enter that discussion. I am always in favour of jumping | :41:16. | :41:24. | |
one's fences when one reaches them. Could the minister tell me how many | :41:25. | :41:30. | |
of the 47 recommendations ignored by the Airport Commission would have | :41:31. | :41:35. | |
benefited Scotland? And whether those recommendations would have | :41:36. | :41:38. | |
increased the domestic flights on likely option at Heathrow which | :41:39. | :41:39. | |
would decrease them. One of the concerns I have picked up | :41:40. | :41:50. | |
around the country outside the south-east is a pressure for slots | :41:51. | :41:55. | |
at Heathrow and Gatwick at peak times means there are always | :41:56. | :41:59. | |
concerns about those connecting flights coming in from other parts | :42:00. | :42:04. | |
of the country, which we need to -- we are very well aware of Anthony to | :42:05. | :42:14. | |
address. -- need to address. We're making great progress in upgrading | :42:15. | :42:20. | |
the railway in the south-west, including delivering new trains to | :42:21. | :42:21. | |
carry more people on faster journeys carry more people on faster journeys | :42:22. | :42:26. | |
and improving resilience to make sure the region can stay connect it. | :42:27. | :42:33. | |
The task force recently published its interim report on a 20 year plan | :42:34. | :42:39. | |
for Devon and will. Can he confirm that the primary aim is to secure | :42:40. | :42:46. | |
the resilience to South Devon, and any other options will be | :42:47. | :42:49. | |
additional, not alternatives. The other options would indeed be | :42:50. | :42:58. | |
impact will overruns and the cost impact will overruns and the cost | :42:59. | :43:02. | |
have on the investment she has mentioned? -- the overruns. Can he | :43:03. | :43:18. | |
repeat the question? She was chuntering to her colleague! | :43:19. | :43:28. | |
Scandalous disregard! What impact will overruns and the cost have on | :43:29. | :43:31. | |
the investment she has mentioned? Apologies. I was misspeaking on the | :43:32. | :43:38. | |
double-check. The roots will be double-check. The roots will be | :43:39. | :43:44. | |
additional, not alternative. He knows that there is an enormous | :43:45. | :43:47. | |
south-west, in terms of Brazilians, south-west, in terms of Brazilians, | :43:48. | :43:55. | |
they hundreds new trains. I wish he would get behind the attempt to the | :43:56. | :43:58. | |
government to connect the vital region, rather than keep shouting | :43:59. | :44:10. | |
about things. He will be delighted to know that the first section of | :44:11. | :44:15. | |
the rail line was opened this Monday, allowing people to travel | :44:16. | :44:26. | |
from Oxford to London Marylebone. I welcome this new service running | :44:27. | :44:27. | |
along the first stage. It is a very along the first stage. It is a very | :44:28. | :44:33. | |
strong business case, as is the project as a wall. Will she do | :44:34. | :44:36. | |
everything to make sure the Hindu review does not delay this? Yes, and | :44:37. | :44:44. | |
we will know more about it in the next few weeks. I want to pay | :44:45. | :44:46. | |
tribute to these MPs who have left us in no doubt of the importance of | :44:47. | :44:52. | |
this East to West rail link. Topical questions. I have seen first hand | :44:53. | :45:06. | |
the work Network Rail are doing, including a ?44 million regeneration | :45:07. | :45:08. | |
of Manchester Victoria station, making it a station Manchester can | :45:09. | :45:13. | |
be proud of. It was voted the worst station in Britain in 2009. The | :45:14. | :45:17. | |
rebuilding of Birmingham new Street station, transforming it. And the | :45:18. | :45:26. | |
reconstruction of bandwidth tunnel, allowing trains to travel from | :45:27. | :45:28. | |
Manchester to Bolton. This will allow diesel trains to be used in | :45:29. | :45:33. | |
the north-west, providing 30,000 more seats per week. This will help | :45:34. | :45:40. | |
to build a Northern Powerhouse. I will not refer to Sheffield | :45:41. | :45:44. | |
you will be pleased to hear. I will you will be pleased to hear. I will | :45:45. | :45:49. | |
refer to Sir David Higgins' report, where he described transport links | :45:50. | :45:53. | |
between Sheffield and Manchester as a matter of national concern. Will | :45:54. | :45:59. | |
he give serious consideration that HSV should link Manchester and | :46:00. | :46:08. | |
Sheffield, and secondly that consideration is given to a route | :46:09. | :46:12. | |
under the Pennines as the only serious way to link Sheffield and | :46:13. | :46:15. | |
Manchester without damaging the Manchester without damaging the | :46:16. | :46:24. | |
national park? Harsh HS3. Can I agree that more needs to be done to | :46:25. | :46:35. | |
improve the links between Sheffield and Manchester, and I hope that when | :46:36. | :47:03. | |
we announced the new franchise for trans-Pennine and Northern Rail, | :47:04. | :47:03. | |
will go some way to meet the will go some way to meet the | :47:04. | :47:06. | |
demands. The two projects he talks about are huge. Work is being done | :47:07. | :47:10. | |
by Colin Matthews on whether a tunnel is the right way forward, and | :47:11. | :47:11. | |
we expect more up dates that next we expect more up dates that next | :47:12. | :47:11. | |
year. On HS3, I understand the year. On HS3, I understand the | :47:12. | :47:12. | |
Figures released by male honourable Figures released by male honourable | :47:13. | :47:12. | |
Severn Bridge is generating more Severn Bridge is generating more | :47:13. | :47:14. | |
profit... It is a great opportunity for the government to slash the toll | :47:15. | :47:20. | |
prices on the bridge, and still have enough money to pay for the | :47:21. | :47:23. | |
maintenance. -- generating more profit than the costs. The toll | :47:24. | :47:33. | |
prices set by others to repay the construction, finance, maintenance | :47:34. | :47:37. | |
and operation costs. We expect the costs to be recovered in 2018, and | :47:38. | :47:52. | |
Government. We're working on the Government. We're working on the | :47:53. | :47:55. | |
future of their son I have heard future of their son I have heard | :47:56. | :47:58. | |
what he has said and I will keep updated. We have always supported | :47:59. | :48:02. | |
Labour councillors on time and we are, including when they were | :48:03. | :48:03. | |
subjected to appalling abuse. I subjected to appalling abuse. I | :48:04. | :48:11. | |
cause of bust tendering. But does he cause of bust tendering. But does he | :48:12. | :48:17. | |
agree with me that the bill must be available to all communities that | :48:18. | :48:18. | |
want them, including rural and isolated communities? -- bus | :48:19. | :48:28. | |
tendering. She knows what will come next, I have been doing this job for | :48:29. | :48:35. | |
three years, the fourth -- she is the fourth shadow Secretary of State | :48:36. | :48:39. | |
I have seen. We will see whether I have seen. We will see whether | :48:40. | :48:51. | |
there is more to come. She asks me and asserts she knows what is in the | :48:52. | :48:53. | |
bus bill. It has not yet been bus bill. It has not yet been | :48:54. | :48:57. | |
published, so I am interested to know how it has been achieved. The | :48:58. | :49:05. | |
simple point is that we're there are elected mayor is, there will be | :49:06. | :49:06. | |
opportunities for those areas to opportunities for those areas to | :49:07. | :49:15. | |
take advantage of. I was hoping for a straight answer to a straight | :49:16. | :49:20. | |
question. With more than 2000 routes lost and downgraded, and fares up by | :49:21. | :49:30. | |
25%, will he rule out any plans to slash support for buses even | :49:31. | :49:37. | |
further? Well, I am not in a position to announce the Spending | :49:38. | :49:41. | |
Review. Like every other member of the House, she will need to wait | :49:42. | :49:45. | |
until the Spending Review is announced by my right honourable | :49:46. | :49:49. | |
friend, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, on the 25th of November. | :49:50. | :49:54. | |
I hope that as a straight answer. Is he aware that added to the many | :49:55. | :50:01. | |
defects in the rolling stock which operates on the West Anglia line, | :50:02. | :50:06. | |
there occurred this week a case of trains stopping, screeching to a | :50:07. | :50:12. | |
halt near Bishops Stortford, apparently for lack of air. Surely | :50:13. | :50:26. | |
more support should be given to this franchise which can offer more | :50:27. | :50:30. | |
assurances for rolling stock. I will make enquiries into this, I do not | :50:31. | :50:35. | |
know about the specific case but I will do by later on today, I assure | :50:36. | :50:40. | |
him. He is absolutely right about the need to improve rolling stock | :50:41. | :50:47. | |
availability, and I hope the invitation to tender on the line | :50:48. | :50:52. | |
will do this. Can the Secretary of State tell the House what measures | :50:53. | :50:57. | |
Network Rail are taking to ensure that skilled rail jobs no longer | :50:58. | :51:07. | |
appear on the cheers -- level two skill shortages list. 95% is brought | :51:08. | :51:14. | |
from UK production, but if I have got the wrong part of his question, | :51:15. | :51:17. | |
perhaps he can write to me and I will write back to him. The | :51:18. | :51:24. | |
Secretary of State mentioned the success of the Norwich campaigns. | :51:25. | :51:28. | |
Worcester is six miles further from London as the crow flies, but my | :51:29. | :51:35. | |
constituents take 150 minutes to reach the capital from Worcester. | :51:36. | :51:40. | |
Can he do everything he can to lean on great Western and Network Rail to | :51:41. | :51:44. | |
get the service down to under two hours? My honourable friends have | :51:45. | :51:55. | |
campaigned on this issue. There is work going on on ways to improve | :51:56. | :52:00. | |
journey time, and we have started the work on delivering it. Commuter | :52:01. | :52:06. | |
routes into Manchester are soon to lose trains to London Midland, | :52:07. | :52:07. | |
raising memories of the raising memories of the | :52:08. | :52:10. | |
trans-Pennine rolling stock to buckle, which cost ?20 million and | :52:11. | :52:16. | |
let the services being downgraded. The Secretary of State, did he have | :52:17. | :52:24. | |
an option in the latest cased, and is this not another example of | :52:25. | :52:29. | |
fragmented railway is letting them passengers? He should just wait and | :52:30. | :52:37. | |
see what comes out of the two franchises. In 2004, it is worth | :52:38. | :52:43. | |
remembering that when the franchise was last let, it was done on a no | :52:44. | :52:53. | |
growth basis. That is what the last government thought of the Northern | :52:54. | :52:56. | |
Powerhouse. I invite him to wait and see the announcements made shortly. | :52:57. | :53:06. | |
Can I seek assurances from the Minister that the new stations fund | :53:07. | :53:09. | |
will be accessible to applications from councils, as the rail Minister | :53:10. | :53:17. | |
knows a new station in my constituency has one of the | :53:18. | :53:19. | |
strongest business cases in the North Devon, of which my | :53:20. | :53:20. | |
constituents which hugely benefit. constituents which hugely benefit. | :53:21. | :53:25. | |
The new station 's fund announced in The new station 's fund announced in | :53:26. | :53:26. | |
applicants. The Derbyshire Dales is applicants. The Derbyshire Dales is | :53:27. | :53:37. | |
a hub for manufacturing in regard to the rail industry. Does he agree | :53:38. | :53:43. | |
that this is a real opportunity for forward planning on getting | :53:44. | :53:46. | |
manufacturers to come together to prepare bids for the work of HS2? | :53:47. | :53:50. | |
Much as this causes me pain, I will Much as this causes me pain, I will | :53:51. | :53:57. | |
agree with the honourable member! The point he makes is absolutely | :53:58. | :54:03. | |
not only companies within the not only companies within the | :54:04. | :54:06. | |
position of taking advantage of it, position of taking advantage of it, | :54:07. | :54:09. | |
but others as well. -- at in the but others as well. -- at in the | :54:10. | :54:18. | |
the government has made ?6 billion the government has made ?6 billion | :54:19. | :54:29. | |
roads, how can we encourage local roads, how can we encourage local | :54:30. | :54:39. | |
repairs? We are supporting local repairs? We are supporting local | :54:40. | :54:41. | |
authorities with financial support, which is a record ?6 billion | :54:42. | :54:41. | |
now and 2021 for highways now and 2021 for highways | :54:42. | :54:41. | |
maintenance. We are also encouraging maintenance. We are also encouraging | :54:42. | :54:43. | |
them to look at how they manage their programmes, and 20% of local | :54:44. | :54:44. | |
authorities have signed up to an authorities have signed up to an | :54:45. | :54:47. | |
efficiency programme. What we're efficiency programme. What we're | :54:48. | :54:50. | |
talking about here is a significant talking about here is a significant | :54:51. | :54:54. | |
investment, and if the deal with 18 investment, and if the deal with 18 | :54:55. | :55:01. | |
able to deal with 18 million able to deal with 18 million | :55:02. | :55:12. | |
industry is likely to suffer greatly industry is likely to suffer greatly | :55:13. | :55:15. | |
with the latest announcements of steel closures. Will he persuade his | :55:16. | :55:21. | |
honourable friend the Prime Minister honourable friend the Prime Minister | :55:22. | :55:24. | |
to end his policy of gifting British to end his policy of gifting | :55:25. | :55:26. | |
jobs to Chinese workers? I am all jobs to Chinese workers? I am all | :55:27. | :55:36. | |
too aware of the importance of ports in getting exports out of the | :55:37. | :55:40. | |
country and imports in. I was in Bristol yesterday which will benefit | :55:41. | :55:45. | |
from developments in the nuclear industry, financed partly by the | :55:46. | :55:51. | |
Chinese. I am going to Felixstowe today to see developments. The | :55:52. | :55:59. | |
government's commitment to join the M 45 and improvements to a | :56:00. | :56:01. | |
roundabout were warmly welcomed by East North Hampshire residents. Can | :56:02. | :56:10. | |
he provide us with an update? I will check progress on this and | :56:11. | :56:13. | |
back to the honourable gentleman. back to the honourable gentleman. | :56:14. | :56:18. | |
Many constituents of mine rely on the number 44 bus to get the | :56:19. | :56:20. | |
Southport Hospital, and the service has been cut as a result of cuts by | :56:21. | :56:22. | |
his department. He spoke earlier his department. He spoke earlier | :56:23. | :56:28. | |
about the opportunity of having directly elected mayor is, but if | :56:29. | :56:33. | |
the cuts continue, the additional powers will be meaningless and of no | :56:34. | :56:34. | |
help to my constituents. I want to help to my constituents. I want to | :56:35. | :56:43. | |
see the widening of services to all our constituents, which is why the | :56:44. | :56:47. | |
government is supporting transport investment to a record amount in | :56:48. | :56:49. | |
this Parliament. The motorway that are restricted to | :56:50. | :57:13. | |
50 mph. The work should be done for the convenience of the road users | :57:14. | :57:20. | |
and not the highly agency. I entirely agree with my honourable | :57:21. | :57:22. | |
friend and I think the wrong stretches of road works frustrate | :57:23. | :57:28. | |
riders, especially as the new completion. - long stretches. We | :57:29. | :57:35. | |
want stretches which are shorter in length and a reduced time. He will | :57:36. | :57:40. | |
be reduced down from one third to one half of the current size. You | :57:41. | :57:47. | |
will be evening and weekend working. If the Minister can get it sorted, | :57:48. | :57:53. | |
who knows, he might be carried aloft in the House. The award is linking | :57:54. | :58:02. | |
of the great cities of the North but it did not include Hull. Now we have | :58:03. | :58:09. | |
come to the electrification of routes when will be secretary give | :58:10. | :58:14. | |
the green light to the initiative to electrify the line all baby to hold? | :58:15. | :58:21. | |
I do apologise to the honourable lady. - Hull. The honourable lady | :58:22. | :58:33. | |
says they are not that many but I think there are a number of eight | :58:34. | :58:39. | |
cities in the north. If I named them all I would get into trouble. - | :58:40. | :58:46. | |
great cities. I have been able to move forward with infrastructure | :58:47. | :58:51. | |
investment. As far as giving the extra money we gave to take the | :58:52. | :58:56. | |
scheme she is talking up to HS2 I am waiting for talk is about that | :58:57. | :59:03. | |
particular scheme. Yesterday there was an important point of order from | :59:04. | :59:07. | |
a wide commie member when he pointed out how excellent the transport | :59:08. | :59:13. | |
department was in answering questions and hopefully the Treasury | :59:14. | :59:15. | |
Department is in answering questions. As the Secretary Of State | :59:16. | :59:20. | |
been contacted by the Chancellor to find out how it is done? I am sure | :59:21. | :59:27. | |
that is meant a helpful question. In the run up to the spending review, | :59:28. | :59:37. | |
it is not. I think chartered engineer and as a member of the IEE | :59:38. | :59:41. | |
G I was horrified to learn that software engineering had an sleep | :59:42. | :59:47. | |
and used to cheat legitimate regulation and possibly undermine | :59:48. | :59:53. | |
public health. What discussions has he had with the professional bodies, | :59:54. | :59:56. | |
the skills Minister and the automotive industry to ensure the | :59:57. | :00:00. | |
whole swag and sort of dark engineering has now place here? The | :00:01. | :00:10. | |
industry across the East is very embarrassed by what has happened and | :00:11. | :00:14. | |
I am sure they will take proper action on the measures. I wonder if | :00:15. | :00:21. | |
my honourable friend could update the house or more progress is being | :00:22. | :00:26. | |
made to bring Crossrail to through Harold Wilson's station? We are out | :00:27. | :00:32. | |
to consultation but I would expect my honourable friend to have said | :00:33. | :00:36. | |
what a great job we are doing as far as Crossrail one has been done. But | :00:37. | :00:43. | |
I have come to learn no sooner do you complete one project and people | :00:44. | :00:51. | |
are talking about the second. Last week the pilot was Mike union wrote | :00:52. | :00:57. | |
to the management at Albany who operates selfless as to the | :00:58. | :01:01. | |
Highlands and Islands about that concern where cases are being | :01:02. | :01:04. | |
returned to the line despite being unserviceable. They brought in some | :01:05. | :01:08. | |
cases a craft contain defects that in some cases affect safety and in | :01:09. | :01:15. | |
other cases affect the aircraft to be an usable. These are lifeline | :01:16. | :01:20. | |
services to some of the most economically fragile communities in | :01:21. | :01:26. | |
the country. What can the aviation Minister do to ensure, through his | :01:27. | :01:33. | |
department or the CE, our local communities can retain full | :01:34. | :01:35. | |
confidence in these crucial services? I regularly meet with that | :01:36. | :01:44. | |
union. It is a good example of how unions can work with government to | :01:45. | :01:48. | |
promote their members. Safety is our top priority for air travel in the | :01:49. | :01:57. | |
UK. We have two meet strict maintenance requirements. I | :01:58. | :02:05. | |
understand that the CAA is aware of the difficulties and is taking care | :02:06. | :02:12. | |
of safety requirements. This matter will be under review. I want to hear | :02:13. | :02:15. | |
from a member of the select committee. Thank you. In recent | :02:16. | :02:22. | |
weeks passengers on the Cleethorpes to Manchester rail routes have had | :02:23. | :02:27. | |
to the top with cancellations due to driver shortage. Customers do not | :02:28. | :02:31. | |
care if this is the company problem or union problem but can the good | :02:32. | :02:36. | |
offices be used to sort this out, please? I will be delighted to do so | :02:37. | :02:42. | |
and will try to do so. This is why the new into regions to end have | :02:43. | :02:47. | |
customary expedience right at the heart of them. Business question, | :02:48. | :02:55. | |
Chris Bryant. I wonder whether the leader of the house could give as | :02:56. | :02:58. | |
the business for next week. The leader of the house. The business | :02:59. | :03:04. | |
for next week, on Monday second November we will have the second | :03:05. | :03:08. | |
reading of the Housing and planning Bill, on Tuesday November, second | :03:09. | :03:11. | |
reading of the European approvals will Lord's. All by the remaining | :03:12. | :03:17. | |
stages of the national insurance contributions Bill followed by a | :03:18. | :03:21. | |
motion to improve the money resolution for access to medical | :03:22. | :03:26. | |
treatments innovation bill. On Wednesday 4th of November will be | :03:27. | :03:29. | |
the ninth opposition day including a debate on policing. Thursday fifth | :03:30. | :03:36. | |
November a debate on the stake in the bank of Scotland and the future | :03:37. | :03:40. | |
of UK banking followed by a debate on the motion relating to the dog | :03:41. | :03:45. | |
meat trade as determined by the backbench business committee. Friday | :03:46. | :03:50. | |
7th of November will be private members bills. The provisional | :03:51. | :03:53. | |
business for the week commencing 9th of November will include, on Monday | :03:54. | :03:57. | |
the ninth, the remaining stages of the Scotland Bill and on Tuesday the | :03:58. | :04:01. | |
remaining stages of the trade unions bill. The business for Thursday | :04:02. | :04:07. | |
fifth November will be a general debate on funding for schools. Mr | :04:08. | :04:11. | |
Speaker will wish to be reminded as well colleagues that the house will | :04:12. | :04:16. | |
rise for the end of business on Tuesday ten November and return on | :04:17. | :04:20. | |
Monday 16th November. I should add that hearing that need we are | :04:21. | :04:24. | |
expecting a visit from the Indian PM to this house and I hope those | :04:25. | :04:29. | |
colleagues who are around and able to be soap will be part of that | :04:30. | :04:37. | |
visit. Mr Chris Bryant. Yesterday set latter admitted the award of the | :04:38. | :04:43. | |
World Cup to Russia had been decided long before England had in its bed | :04:44. | :04:47. | |
and yesterday the select committee will World Cup sponsors on that | :04:48. | :04:53. | |
complicity in blatter's kleptocratic rule. Can we have a debate on the | :04:54. | :05:00. | |
sink of corruption that is a fact? British taxpayers and football fans | :05:01. | :05:08. | |
have been diddled out of millions. - Fifa. Talking of stitch up jobs, can | :05:09. | :05:17. | |
these eco-explain something he said yesterday, the review from the | :05:18. | :05:21. | |
second Baron of Strathclyde into the privileges of we the Commons, the | :05:22. | :05:25. | |
reader club members that is absolutely essential we do not rush | :05:26. | :05:29. | |
into this and for that matter we should not rush headlong into | :05:30. | :05:34. | |
unfortunately, undermine the leader unfortunately, undermine the leader | :05:35. | :05:38. | |
of the house by telling the world that one yesterday all of this could | :05:39. | :05:42. | |
be done and dusted white Christmas. How can this be right? If the risen | :05:43. | :05:47. | |
issue shouldn't this house a debasing it? It is not a review at | :05:48. | :05:53. | |
all, it is a Fifa style stitch up. I am not sure the government has got | :05:54. | :05:59. | |
over its tantrum of losing in the Lord's on Monday. He has said | :06:00. | :06:03. | |
several times now he will make substantial changes to his plan in | :06:04. | :06:07. | |
the Autumn Statement on November 25. The reader will know the Autumn | :06:08. | :06:12. | |
Statement is precisely that, a statement and no more, it does not | :06:13. | :06:17. | |
actually do anything legislatively. I asked the reader again, will he | :06:18. | :06:21. | |
allow a three-day debate on the effects of the Autumn Statement this | :06:22. | :06:27. | |
year? On Tuesday the chairman of the National Cleese chief counsel and | :06:28. | :06:33. | |
the Deputy Commissioner of the Met police said if the Home Secretary or | :06:34. | :06:37. | |
Chancellor of the Exchequer get their way with the police budget it | :06:38. | :06:42. | |
will be the end of the year of bobbies on the beat. Is that | :06:43. | :06:48. | |
something to be proud of? Officers have already gone and it looks | :06:49. | :06:51. | |
likely more than 20,000 more officers will be lost by the end of | :06:52. | :06:56. | |
this Parliament. We should be devoting our opposition day next | :06:57. | :07:02. | |
week to this. Can the Home Secretary herself answered this debate so we | :07:03. | :07:07. | |
can take her to task? Can we have a debate on the ministerial code of | :07:08. | :07:11. | |
conduct? Deviously this has made clear that there was an overarching | :07:12. | :07:16. | |
duty on ministers to comply with law including international law and | :07:17. | :07:20. | |
treaty obligations. Last week it was revealed that the GM has insisted it | :07:21. | :07:26. | |
Attorney General and conservative Attorney General and conservative | :07:27. | :07:31. | |
Attorney General says it is impossible to understand how this | :07:32. | :07:35. | |
change has been carried out and cover was broken as the head of the | :07:36. | :07:38. | |
contempt for international law. legal service accused number ten of | :07:39. | :07:45. | |
contempt for international law. Surely to goodness a minister's word | :07:46. | :07:48. | |
is still his wand when he signs a duty. Does he still crosses fingers | :07:49. | :07:53. | |
behind his back when he signs treaties? Why on earth was the Ford | :07:54. | :08:00. | |
of conduct issued any ministerial statement to the Lords and still not | :08:01. | :08:06. | |
to the House of Commons? Mr Speaker, many parts of this country as many | :08:07. | :08:11. | |
members have said still have terrible mobile telephone coverage. | :08:12. | :08:16. | |
Last year the government had to withdraw its hourly drafted | :08:17. | :08:18. | |
telecommunications code which was intended to deal with these spots | :08:19. | :08:23. | |
around the country. He promised to bring any new electronic code as a | :08:24. | :08:30. | |
matter of urgency but they've is still no sign of it so can the | :08:31. | :08:33. | |
reader tell us when this will appear? Mobile phone coverage is | :08:34. | :08:39. | |
every bit as much a public utility as water and electricity so will be | :08:40. | :08:45. | |
government get a move on? Mr Speaker I confess I am worried about the | :08:46. | :08:49. | |
state of health of the Chancellor, he looked really appeal earlier this | :08:50. | :08:53. | |
year and I thought. He has, did I see it, something of the night about | :08:54. | :08:59. | |
him. With Halloween upon him can the reader as sure as he will be staying | :09:00. | :09:04. | |
at home on Saturday night when it is dark. It is one thing to scream | :09:05. | :09:11. | |
along with order but quite another to encounter the Chancellor in a | :09:12. | :09:15. | |
dark alley and his form of trick or treat is to suck family finances | :09:16. | :09:21. | |
dry. Talking of Halloween, in Scotland it is the time for guising | :09:22. | :09:28. | |
when people go around in fancy dress but has the member for South | :09:29. | :09:31. | |
Cambridgeshire will expose the fact that however hard the PM has tried | :09:32. | :09:37. | |
to dress the Tory party up, hugging the gays and marrying huskies, | :09:38. | :09:44. | |
conservatism is dead, all that is left is a fake skeleton costume. We | :09:45. | :09:50. | |
should be debating a motion next Thursday on the dog meat trade, I | :09:51. | :09:53. | |
wondered whether this was the debate of the dogs wrecked first the | :09:54. | :09:57. | |
Chancellor has made of the tax credit fiasco but today is award the | :09:58. | :10:02. | |
award the Westminster dog of the year. I wish my deputy's badly | :10:03. | :10:08. | |
behaved Rottweilers well in the competition but I gather that the | :10:09. | :10:13. | |
member for helmet and Rockwell has two dogs called Boris and Maggie. A | :10:14. | :10:20. | |
found bodices behaviour improved significantly when he was castrated. | :10:21. | :10:28. | |
Well this advice be passed on to the Chancellor, Home Secretary and other | :10:29. | :10:29. | |
candidates for the Conservative Party leadership? Leader of the | :10:30. | :10:39. | |
house, Mr Chris Grayling. Can I start by delivering some good news | :10:40. | :10:43. | |
to my honourable friend the member for Kettering who sadly is not in | :10:44. | :10:48. | |
his ways today. I shall also informed the house that you, after | :10:49. | :10:52. | |
receiving positive feedback, have authorised that the new alphabetical | :10:53. | :10:57. | |
meetings will be kept in place for the rest of Parliament. The new warm | :10:58. | :11:07. | |
relationship that exists between the Fs and Gs is getting on well. In all | :11:08. | :11:14. | |
the old terms it has worked well and we will be continuing it. Can I | :11:15. | :11:19. | |
associate myself with the remarks of the honourable gentleman about Fifa? | :11:20. | :11:27. | |
He works hard on the brief and I am reliably informed he was | :11:28. | :11:29. | |
disappointed to move away from that. He knows very well how | :11:30. | :11:34. | |
shocking the developed and sat Fifa have been. It is no excuse | :11:35. | :11:39. | |
whatsoever for what has taken place. I would commend all of those who | :11:40. | :11:44. | |
have been involved in pursuing the investigation to the stage we have | :11:45. | :11:48. | |
reached no. It does look likely that prosecutions will fall and rightly | :11:49. | :11:54. | |
so. It is of absolute importance in a game that is seen around the world | :11:55. | :11:59. | |
as a region for young people that it should be absolutely clean. Those | :12:00. | :12:04. | |
who have left it in a position with it has been this marched by | :12:05. | :12:06. | |
corruption should be dealt with by the full force of the law and | :12:07. | :12:10. | |
changes essential, I completely agree with him on that. | :12:11. | :12:18. | |
Regarding the Strathclyde review into the House of Lords, there will | :12:19. | :12:24. | |
be a full statement about the terms of reference when he is ready to | :12:25. | :12:29. | |
publish those details, which is right and proper. He will take the | :12:30. | :12:34. | |
time necessary, given the scope of the work he intends to do, and he | :12:35. | :12:40. | |
will make clear how that will work. On the tax credits point, I will | :12:41. | :12:42. | |
remind the honourable gentleman that remind the honourable gentleman that | :12:43. | :12:46. | |
we will be using for the Autumn Statement the same procedure is that | :12:47. | :12:50. | |
operated in 13 years of Labour Government. Now they are in | :12:51. | :12:53. | |
change how the House works. We will change how the House works. We will | :12:54. | :12:58. | |
continue to operate the way we have, debating issues fully. We have | :12:59. | :13:01. | |
already had extensive debates on the tax credits issue, and no doubt we | :13:02. | :13:10. | |
will have more. Under Conservative leadership of government and | :13:11. | :13:14. | |
Coalition, and under this government, crime has fallen. We | :13:15. | :13:19. | |
have had to take some difficult decisions, and they are challenges | :13:20. | :13:34. | |
facing the police. He made a point about the ministerial code. I would | :13:35. | :13:36. | |
simply say that under the new ministerial code, listers are still | :13:37. | :13:44. | |
required to uphold the law. We would expect that. -- ministers are still | :13:45. | :13:58. | |
required. We spoke about the Department of Culture, Media and | :13:59. | :14:02. | |
Sport. Just to remind them that the former Secretary of State, now the | :14:03. | :14:04. | |
Business Secretary, secured a deal to secure five Ilion pounds of | :14:05. | :14:11. | |
investment in mobile telephony. We do not just a published. -- | :14:12. | :14:29. | |
published documents, we do things. We have watched with interest the | :14:30. | :14:32. | |
pale faces on the side of the House, the huddles of pallid people asking | :14:33. | :14:37. | |
how we get ourselves out of this mess. My worry is for the health of | :14:38. | :14:41. | |
him and his colleagues, not for the him and his colleagues, not for the | :14:42. | :14:45. | |
Chancellor, who I can assure him is in great form. He made reference to | :14:46. | :14:50. | |
the point that this weekend as Halloween. My sympathies today are | :14:51. | :14:57. | |
with the children of the Rhondda. It is my hope that he is not planning | :14:58. | :15:02. | |
to go trick or treating, because can you imagine the horror of a small | :15:03. | :15:11. | |
gentleman is out trick or treating? gentleman is out trick or treating? | :15:12. | :15:29. | |
76-year-old joint Iranians citizen has been held in Iran's notorious | :15:30. | :15:40. | |
where his health deteriorates. -- where his health deteriorates. -- | :15:41. | :15:48. | |
the Iranian and British citizen. Has Sun and grandchildren are in the | :15:49. | :15:49. | |
gallery today with a simple message, please let grandpa come | :15:50. | :16:01. | |
his constituent's family and for the his constituent's family and for the | :16:02. | :16:09. | |
work he is doing. Given the obvious urgency of this, I will make a point | :16:10. | :16:13. | |
of ensuring this is communicated immediately after the session to my | :16:14. | :16:17. | |
colleagues in the Foreign Office and I will ask them to ensure that | :16:18. | :16:19. | |
respond as quickly as possible. Can respond as quickly as possible. Can | :16:20. | :16:30. | |
announcing business for next week. announcing business for next week. | :16:31. | :16:39. | |
Our thoughts are very much this morning with the school community | :16:40. | :16:48. | |
their pupils in Aberdeenshire. One their pupils in Aberdeenshire. | :16:49. | :16:52. | |
of my honourable friends was a pupil of my honourable friends was a pupil | :16:53. | :16:55. | |
at this school. This was an at this school. This was an | :16:56. | :16:55. | |
appalling tragedy witnessed appalling tragedy witnessed | :16:56. | :16:55. | |
yesterday. It is Dave four of The Great War of the nobles, and it is | :16:56. | :17:04. | |
starting to get ugly. -- day for. They have released their not so | :17:05. | :17:07. | |
secret weapon, codenamed big boy, to go to the House and sort them out. | :17:08. | :17:14. | |
He is going down there to emasculate the House of Lords and ensure that | :17:15. | :17:16. | |
they never do anything like this again. Of course they can. The House | :17:17. | :17:24. | |
of Lords is without a shred of democratic legitimacy, it represents | :17:25. | :17:29. | |
absolutely no one. I am certain the Tories will get their way when it | :17:30. | :17:32. | |
sensing is a real desire amongst the sensing is a real desire amongst the | :17:33. | :17:38. | |
Conservative benches to deal decisively with the House of Lords. | :17:39. | :17:41. | |
I get the sense they have had enough of that unelected chamber with the | :17:42. | :17:48. | |
Lords, baronets, earls, dancing around like Santa Claus, having a | :17:49. | :17:54. | |
stake in this democracy. I appeal to the Conservative members to join us | :17:55. | :18:00. | |
Let us have a proper enquiry into Let us have a proper enquiry into | :18:01. | :18:09. | |
the role of that place. We get the Scotland Bill back in a couple of | :18:10. | :18:14. | |
weeks, and there is only one day set aside for the remaining stages and | :18:15. | :18:20. | |
third reading. We had four days were not one amendment was made, even | :18:21. | :18:24. | |
though they were backed by every member of Parliament who represented | :18:25. | :18:31. | |
a Scottish constituency. The Secretary of State said he would | :18:32. | :18:33. | |
spend the summer reflecting, and said he would try to bring back | :18:34. | :18:36. | |
Bill in line with what was promised Bill in line with what was promised | :18:37. | :18:42. | |
in the Smith Commission. Surely we need more than one day looking at | :18:43. | :18:48. | |
this. This is the first is in his questions I have had an opportunity | :18:49. | :18:52. | |
to speak of a second-class member of this House. Groaning | :18:53. | :19:00. | |
I am certain the Leader of the House has recognised the sheer anger put | :19:01. | :19:06. | |
forward in Scotland about Scotland's member of -- members of | :19:07. | :19:15. | |
Parliament being told not to leave the union, but as soon as we get | :19:16. | :19:23. | |
here things change. Is this going to be subject to an English veto, and | :19:24. | :19:29. | |
if it is, how will it work out? We are grateful to you, Mr Speaker, for | :19:30. | :19:32. | |
backing the call we have been making about getting rid of the ridiculous | :19:33. | :19:41. | |
that we abandon business for that we abandon business for | :19:42. | :19:46. | |
participating in a voluntary organisations association. I would | :19:47. | :19:49. | |
ask you to use your considerable authority to make sure the summer | :19:50. | :20:00. | |
recess covers all parts of the UK, there school holidays. A new | :20:01. | :20:04. | |
tradition has been taken up by the children of Scotland, where the goal | :20:05. | :20:09. | |
disguised as Conservatives because they are so unusual Andre. The only | :20:10. | :20:12. | |
problem is when they turn up to the door, there is real fear that this | :20:13. | :20:21. | |
people who open the doors that they will get any treats because they are | :20:22. | :20:30. | |
Conservatives. I have a confession to make. Until last week I had not | :20:31. | :20:34. | |
previously heard any of the work of that distinguished band MP four, of | :20:35. | :20:43. | |
which he is a great part. I did not realise what great showman he was. | :20:44. | :20:49. | |
He does bring a bit of that showbiz to this House. A little bit of fake | :20:50. | :20:58. | |
outrage on some theatre. He showed a chink a couple of weeks ago when he | :20:59. | :21:01. | |
said nice things about the House of Lords, but he is back to his usual | :21:02. | :21:10. | |
form. I know where he is coming from, I am confident that we will be | :21:11. | :21:14. | |
able to find a resolution under the guidance of Lord Strathclyde. The | :21:15. | :21:18. | |
fake outrage has been there on the Scotland Bill as well. The Law | :21:19. | :21:23. | |
Society of Scotland emphasised we are delivering what we committed to. | :21:24. | :21:29. | |
I would not expect a group of politicians whose mission is to | :21:30. | :21:33. | |
secure independence for Scotland to do anything else but have fake | :21:34. | :21:38. | |
outrage. We are delivering what we promised. If ever there was an | :21:39. | :21:45. | |
example of that little bit of showbiz that he brings, it is over | :21:46. | :21:52. | |
the issue of English votes. He describes himself as a second-class | :21:53. | :21:55. | |
citizen, which he will never be anywhere. Having listened to all of | :21:56. | :22:01. | |
his arguments, I would remind them about what he said on the 14th of | :22:02. | :22:05. | |
October last year, which is I sympathise totally with English | :22:06. | :22:10. | |
members. Of course they should have English votes for English laws. They | :22:11. | :22:16. | |
have every right to demand English-only legislation. I admire | :22:17. | :22:22. | |
him for this, but on occasion he has a habit of delivering slightly mixed | :22:23. | :22:29. | |
messages. Regarding Conservatives in Scotland, I think people have the | :22:30. | :22:32. | |
reason to be skewered this autumn, come Halloween and the weeks ahead, | :22:33. | :22:40. | |
-- to be frightened. Are the Labour Party. They have been done over by | :22:41. | :22:43. | |
the SNP colleagues, and we intend to do them over as well. The nice | :22:44. | :22:52. | |
quality standard of autism calls for waiting times between referral and | :22:53. | :22:57. | |
initial appointment for assessment to be no longer than three months. | :22:58. | :23:04. | |
-- NICE. Currently these targets are not being met. Could we have a | :23:05. | :23:08. | |
debate on research from the National Autistic Society, which has shown | :23:09. | :23:12. | |
that on average the wait for children is 3.5 years and adults | :23:13. | :23:26. | |
raising concerns the diagnosis. As raising concerns the diagnosis. As | :23:27. | :23:28. | |
every member of this House has every member of this | :23:29. | :23:28. | |
approximately 1000 people in their approximately 1000 people in their | :23:29. | :23:29. | |
constituency suffering from autism, these long waiting times are | :23:30. | :23:34. | |
to crisis point. She makes a very to crisis point. She makes a very | :23:35. | :23:44. | |
important point. As constituency MPs all of us have experience of the | :23:45. | :23:46. | |
autistic child face and the autistic child face and the | :23:47. | :23:49. | |
importance of doing everything we can to give those children the | :23:50. | :23:53. | |
opportunities in life. I am sure opportunities in life. I am sure | :23:54. | :24:03. | |
interest in this area, sheer concern interest in this area, sheer concern | :24:04. | :24:09. | |
is shared by the Secretary of State, is shared by the Secretary of State, | :24:10. | :24:18. | |
and I will raise the concerns with. I would ask her to continue bringing | :24:19. | :24:30. | |
these issues to the House. Does the House and government think that once | :24:31. | :24:34. | |
again, just looking at the House of Lords, is like looking at one | :24:35. | :24:35. | |
on the bicycle. Not looking at the on the bicycle. Not looking at the | :24:36. | :24:35. | |
person driving. Should we have a person driving. Should we have a | :24:36. | :24:36. | |
comprehensive review to bring this comprehensive review to bring this | :24:37. | :24:37. | |
into the 21st century? There are many ways about how the whole of the | :24:38. | :24:41. | |
constitutional arrangements should work. The constitutional committee | :24:42. | :24:51. | |
is engaged in this at the moment. The chair of the committee is hard | :24:52. | :24:54. | |
at work looking at the constitutional arrangements and I'm | :24:55. | :24:56. | |
interesting ideas. As you know the interesting ideas. As you know the | :24:57. | :25:06. | |
credentials of the current UK delegation to the parliamentary | :25:07. | :25:09. | |
assembly to the Council of Europe expire next week. As the membership | :25:10. | :25:14. | |
of the new delegation is the responsibility of Parliament and not | :25:15. | :25:18. | |
the government, will he make time next week for this House to express | :25:19. | :25:27. | |
its opinion? I am aware of the motion down on his order paper -- | :25:28. | :25:33. | |
the order paper. This is a matter that I have no doubt the House will | :25:34. | :25:37. | |
give careful consideration to, and the point of a backbench business | :25:38. | :25:42. | |
committee is to ensure there is time available to members of the host to | :25:43. | :25:48. | |
allocate time to debate. -- the Leader of the House to allocate time | :25:49. | :25:57. | |
to debate. Can I thank the Leader of the House for the business | :25:58. | :25:59. | |
statement. For the avoidance of doubt, next Thursday we have two | :26:00. | :26:05. | |
debates from the backbench business committee. One on this taken because | :26:06. | :26:11. | |
Bank of Scotland, and the other is the trade in dog flesh. Could the | :26:12. | :26:23. | |
Leader of the House gives the backbench business committee and | :26:24. | :26:25. | |
early indication if there is any possibility for time in the week | :26:26. | :26:33. | |
beginning 16th November? I cannot give that undertaking, but my | :26:34. | :26:35. | |
expectation is there will be time. I have no reason to believe it will | :26:36. | :26:46. | |
not be available. He is picking interesting subject for debate which | :26:47. | :26:48. | |
will command great attention, and I think particularly the debate on dog | :26:49. | :26:55. | |
meat happening as it is. It is a sign of how much concerned there is | :26:56. | :26:59. | |
across the House about the welfare of dogs. Also the fact this is a | :27:00. | :27:04. | |
trade that most people in this country do not support at all. | :27:05. | :27:09. | |
Steve eco. Communications this week seemed to suggest some members of | :27:10. | :27:17. | |
the public might have even confused about the finance will weave aborted | :27:18. | :27:24. | |
on on Monday. Could we have a statement from the reader that makes | :27:25. | :27:29. | |
clear what the true position is and can we also understand from him what | :27:30. | :27:34. | |
keep hands to do to counter the occasional misrepresentation of | :27:35. | :27:43. | |
business of this House? - voted on. There is no clarification of the | :27:44. | :27:46. | |
nature of a division on the website. I have listened to colleagues and do | :27:47. | :27:51. | |
intend to write to that website asking them to write some degree of | :27:52. | :27:58. | |
explanation on issues of this kind. Given this was a debate about and | :27:59. | :28:03. | |
civil, not substance, it is not possible under the current treaty | :28:04. | :28:09. | |
arrangements for this House to cut VAT to zero. That decision had to be | :28:10. | :28:15. | |
taken in Brussels. There is strong interest in securing change. It is | :28:16. | :28:22. | |
utterly unacceptable to have a situation where party groups are | :28:23. | :28:27. | |
misrepresenting the vote as a 0 rate for tampons, it is completely | :28:28. | :28:32. | |
unacceptable. There should be a 0 rate for a product that is clearly | :28:33. | :28:42. | |
not a luxury. The minister gave a commitment he would raise that has | :28:43. | :28:56. | |
in Euro and he has done so. The Cannes of the House has promised to | :28:57. | :29:02. | |
negotiate at European level to achieve a 0 rate of the 80 on | :29:03. | :29:12. | |
women's products. This should go alongside the court demands in the | :29:13. | :29:17. | |
forthcoming Wii negotiation. Women's rights are not a | :29:18. | :29:21. | |
second-class issue, can he confirm that? Women's rights will never be a | :29:22. | :29:27. | |
second-class issue. The party in power opposite for 13 years and | :29:28. | :29:34. | |
never secured anything of this sort. Since the debate on Tuesday we have | :29:35. | :29:40. | |
already seen the vice chairman of the mission say this is an issue | :29:41. | :29:47. | |
that are willing to consider. We are taking a step in the right | :29:48. | :29:51. | |
direction. If a minister gives a commitment to this has the will do | :29:52. | :29:57. | |
so, they will find it through. Devolution is something we all | :29:58. | :30:05. | |
expire to and my county in Somerset wish to embrace revolution. We wish | :30:06. | :30:12. | |
to embrace it so that the money follows the devolution coming from | :30:13. | :30:15. | |
the centre which is fantastic, we want to do it. In this House can be | :30:16. | :30:21. | |
debate this so there is a clear message going out to district and | :30:22. | :30:24. | |
unity is for how they can get involved in maximising their return | :30:25. | :30:30. | |
for taxpayers? This is what the government is seeking to do and | :30:31. | :30:34. | |
there will be no one size fits all for different settlements in | :30:35. | :30:38. | |
different parts of the country, it depends on the circumstances and | :30:39. | :30:42. | |
different geography and nature of the economy. I would encourage my | :30:43. | :30:48. | |
honourable men to make this point to other ministers. It is a great | :30:49. | :30:52. | |
opportunity for counties like Somerset to be involved in | :30:53. | :30:55. | |
defamation to give them greater control over matters that affect | :30:56. | :31:02. | |
their area. There is a real opportunity for local authorities | :31:03. | :31:06. | |
and local communities. Given the difficult financial circumstances | :31:07. | :31:12. | |
that the NHS finds itself in, is it not time for a debate on a national | :31:13. | :31:17. | |
tariff for the treatment of IVF given that CCG 's are paying fees as | :31:18. | :31:28. | |
varied as ?2500 to ?6,000 per cycle? We have a choice in the NHS, we can | :31:29. | :31:35. | |
either devolved responsibilities to local lactation is keep everything | :31:36. | :31:39. | |
at the centre. The moment we start to say we do not like different | :31:40. | :31:46. | |
areas where different CCG 's make different decisions we start to be | :31:47. | :31:51. | |
centralised again. I want decisions taken by local doctors. I would eat | :31:52. | :31:58. | |
reluctant to reverse that. With my honourable friend consider having a | :31:59. | :32:03. | |
debate on the future of the House of lords in the near future purely and | :32:04. | :32:07. | |
simply because of the events of this week and also I have been doing some | :32:08. | :32:11. | |
work and had a successful debate in West and start all on a particular | :32:12. | :32:16. | |
oppose all that was met and welcomed on all sides of the House. Part | :32:17. | :32:22. | |
Westminster Hall. I have no doubt be will have such a debate in future | :32:23. | :32:27. | |
but can I encourage him to talk to Lord Strathclyde as well as he | :32:28. | :32:31. | |
dubbed his review? The scope of the review will be out shortly but I | :32:32. | :32:36. | |
suggest he takes any ideas for change to the noble lord who will | :32:37. | :32:40. | |
wish to hear the views of people in this House? The approach of another | :32:41. | :32:48. | |
Parliamentary recess and no indication whatsoever that the | :32:49. | :32:51. | |
government intends to seek a mandate for military intervention in Syria. | :32:52. | :32:56. | |
Isn't it he can play obviously there is no appetite across this chamber | :32:57. | :33:01. | |
for a second goal through military venture. Can we look at the | :33:02. | :33:06. | |
financial initiatives which might actually contribute to bringing | :33:07. | :33:12. | |
peace and stability to that country? I would simply say to the right | :33:13. | :33:17. | |
honourable gentleman, there will be no statement or debate about | :33:18. | :33:21. | |
military intervention in Syria unless we have an intention to | :33:22. | :33:26. | |
intervene voluntarily in Syria. The reason we do not have another | :33:27. | :33:28. | |
statement about that is because no decision has been taken to intervene | :33:29. | :33:34. | |
militarily in Syria and should that happen we will come to this House | :33:35. | :33:39. | |
and discuss it fully. We have debated this extensively in we said | :33:40. | :33:44. | |
weeks, the Foreign Secretary was before this House regularly. They | :33:45. | :33:49. | |
will be plenty opportunities to debate what is an difficult | :33:50. | :33:52. | |
situation, something we all of us wish to see the resolution but it is | :33:53. | :33:58. | |
difficult to see a path to that resolution given how complex the | :33:59. | :34:03. | |
situation is. I feel sure he reader of the House is a Downton at the fan | :34:04. | :34:12. | |
and will have been as alarmed as me by what happened two weeks ago. | :34:13. | :34:18. | |
Fortunately Lord Grantham is recovering well what it is pointed | :34:19. | :34:25. | |
out that survival from upper gastrointestinal bleeding in this | :34:26. | :34:28. | |
country lags behind those countries with which we could reasonably be | :34:29. | :34:33. | |
compared. I wonder if we could have a debate on how we could configure | :34:34. | :34:38. | |
endoscopy services in this country to bring us up among the best in | :34:39. | :34:42. | |
Europe rather than the worst? She makes a very important point in his | :34:43. | :34:49. | |
customer Blake light-hearted but also serious weight. I did not see | :34:50. | :34:55. | |
the particular scene in Downton Abbey but I believe it was | :34:56. | :35:00. | |
eye-catching to say the least comment he makes today I think are | :35:01. | :35:05. | |
important ones and I will make sure they are forwarded to my colleagues | :35:06. | :35:12. | |
in the Department of Health. My honourable friend from the front | :35:13. | :35:18. | |
bench quite rightly lead on the issue of Fifa which he described as | :35:19. | :35:23. | |
a sink of corruption but football is still the beautiful game and will be | :35:24. | :35:26. | |
readers of the House on behalf of the government join me in paying | :35:27. | :35:34. | |
tribute to a happy birthday to a former Derbyshire player who was the | :35:35. | :35:38. | |
first black professional footballer in the world. We are very proud of | :35:39. | :35:45. | |
him. Years and adopted son of Darlington and will be Cannes what | :35:46. | :35:52. | |
the House join me with say happy birthday to him? The beautiful game | :35:53. | :35:59. | |
is tarnished because of the penalty shoot out at all Trafford last | :36:00. | :36:05. | |
night. I will join her and also pay tribute to all of the black leaders | :36:06. | :36:09. | |
Huebner Pathfinders in the game and opened it up to evil generation of | :36:10. | :36:11. | |
young people. I would like to see young people. I would like to see | :36:12. | :36:17. | |
more black coaches in this country as well and I think that should be a | :36:18. | :36:22. | |
minority for the game. I congratulate him for all he has done | :36:23. | :36:28. | |
to contribute to the sport. My hard-working constituents who use | :36:29. | :36:33. | |
Kingston and Surbiton station 's art forced to pay for zone six tickets | :36:34. | :36:39. | |
when logic and fairness dictates they should be in zone five. 26 | :36:40. | :36:43. | |
stations are in zone five yet further from their London terminus. | :36:44. | :36:48. | |
I know there are other reasoning campaigns in London yet houses | :36:49. | :36:52. | |
certainly the most compelling. We make time for a debate on the zoning | :36:53. | :36:59. | |
of stations in London? I would not go as far to say... He may be the | :37:00. | :37:06. | |
most campaigning campaign in London but the campaign to get Epsom in | :37:07. | :37:09. | |
zone six which is outside London may be a great important. There are | :37:10. | :37:15. | |
zoning concerns and I have drawn this to the Department for Transport | :37:16. | :37:21. | |
was my attention. I hope we can make regressing what we are doing and our | :37:22. | :37:25. | |
constituents can see that. It is something I know people in still are | :37:26. | :37:33. | |
looking forward to him succeeding in due course in. A cross-party support | :37:34. | :37:38. | |
for a series of appeals. Open up family courts is something a | :37:39. | :37:42. | |
succession of governments have promised to reform. Will there be a | :37:43. | :37:48. | |
debate on how we can break open the cartels that surround the family | :37:49. | :37:52. | |
courts system? Having been Secretary Of State for just as I am aware of | :37:53. | :37:57. | |
this and sympathetic. We have two be careful there are some deeply | :37:58. | :38:02. | |
distressing stories take place within the family courts and we must | :38:03. | :38:05. | |
not open them up in a way that exposes family heartache to the | :38:06. | :38:12. | |
tabloid media. He is right to say there is no reason for the agree of | :38:13. | :38:18. | |
closed environment that exists around those family courts. I know | :38:19. | :38:23. | |
this is a matter of concern to my colleague the Secretary Of State | :38:24. | :38:27. | |
today. He will be here again on Tuesday and I would encourage him to | :38:28. | :38:32. | |
re-raised this point. As my right honourable friend knows, I am | :38:33. | :38:38. | |
running a campaign to save the hedgehog. Will my right honourable | :38:39. | :38:43. | |
friend 's urge every member and right on rubble member to ensure | :38:44. | :38:46. | |
there are safety measures in place within one fires next Thursday which | :38:47. | :38:54. | |
is Guy Fawkes night? Thank you. I share his concern about the | :38:55. | :38:57. | |
hedgehog. We have seen a really distressing fall in our hedgehog | :38:58. | :39:04. | |
population in the last few decades. When I was a child you would find | :39:05. | :39:07. | |
one in every garden, it will would feed them outside the door and it | :39:08. | :39:13. | |
now does not happen to any degree like it used to. I would say to | :39:14. | :39:17. | |
members on all sides of the House and anyone listening to this debate, | :39:18. | :39:22. | |
bonfire night is a period of great danger to hedgehogs. If you drive | :39:23. | :39:27. | |
around the country you will already see large piles of wood setup. It is | :39:28. | :39:33. | |
all too common that a hedgehog finds refuge in those bonfires in the next | :39:34. | :39:38. | |
few days. I would ask anyone to double-check before they like them | :39:39. | :39:42. | |
to make sure there is not a hedgehog nesting inside, we cannot afford to | :39:43. | :39:48. | |
lose any more. Young people are being killed on our streets. | :39:49. | :39:53. | |
Tragically, in my constituency, there have been two youth deaths in | :39:54. | :39:59. | |
as many months. This is not isolated. A boy stabbed to death in | :40:00. | :40:05. | |
Aberdeen, shooting in Hackney, Alford, even machine-gun fire in | :40:06. | :40:12. | |
Willesden. This had to stop. With the government continuing to cut | :40:13. | :40:14. | |
front line services, young people are turning to crime and violence in | :40:15. | :40:19. | |
bigger and bigger numbers. Is it not time to call an urgent debate | :40:20. | :40:24. | |
looking at how all parties can work together to stop the rise of youth | :40:25. | :40:30. | |
violence? Mr Speaker, firstly, let us be clear, knife crime is a blight | :40:31. | :40:36. | |
on our society as our knife murders and I would endorse the comments | :40:37. | :40:43. | |
made earlier about the tragic events in Aberdeen yesterday. They are | :40:44. | :40:46. | |
fortunately rare in this country that makes them even more shocking | :40:47. | :40:51. | |
when they do happen. I send my condolences and good wishes not only | :40:52. | :40:54. | |
to the family but also those in the school for whom it would have aimed | :40:55. | :40:59. | |
a deeply traumatic experience. On the streets of London any death | :41:00. | :41:04. | |
through knife crime is too much, we have taken measures to toughen the | :41:05. | :41:07. | |
law around carrying knives but it is important to support those | :41:08. | :41:12. | |
organisations that try to take young people away from crime and carrying | :41:13. | :41:19. | |
by a couple who set it up after the by a couple who set it up after the | :41:20. | :41:26. | |
death of their son. The number of young people entering the criminal | :41:27. | :41:30. | |
justice system for the first time is balding and has continued to fall | :41:31. | :41:34. | |
for a number of years. That is a great step forward. The challenge of | :41:35. | :41:38. | |
the offending is a good news story that fewer people are entering the | :41:39. | :41:43. | |
justice system for the first time, long may that continue. | :41:44. | :41:51. | |
British farmers who successfully applied for environmental | :41:52. | :41:55. | |
improvement grants are being told that unless they put up all boards | :41:56. | :41:59. | |
indicating the money came from the EU, they could lose part or all of | :42:00. | :42:13. | |
and net contributors to the EU, and net contributors to the EU, | :42:14. | :42:33. | |
isn't it akin to me taking my money from my bank to do a home | :42:34. | :42:33. | |
improvement, and putting up a billboard saying, thank | :42:34. | :42:34. | |
Barclays? Could we have a statement Barclays? Could we have a | :42:35. | :42:34. | |
from an agricultural Minister saying from an agricultural Minister saying | :42:35. | :42:34. | |
the British countryside by this the British countryside by this | :42:35. | :42:35. | |
propaganda? The countryside here is around the most -- among the most | :42:36. | :42:38. | |
beautiful anywhere in the world. I have some sympathy with him, and I | :42:39. | :42:44. | |
do not want to see anything detracting from its natural beauty | :42:45. | :42:50. | |
full stop DEFRA questions are next Thursday, so he can put it to him | :42:51. | :42:55. | |
directly. But keep the countryside pure and natural. Will the | :42:56. | :43:02. | |
government make a statement on the situation of employees pensions and | :43:03. | :43:08. | |
the Commonwealth War Graves Commission? He will not allow them | :43:09. | :43:18. | |
to make a decision on closing... Does he agree that staff working | :43:19. | :43:24. | |
harder than ever due to the centenary commemorations at cutting | :43:25. | :43:28. | |
committee staff pensions while the Director-General gets a 50% pay rise | :43:29. | :43:35. | |
is utterly inappropriate? I understand the point he is making. A | :43:36. | :43:40. | |
range of organisations have had to make decisions about final salary | :43:41. | :43:48. | |
pensions. I will make sure they concerns he has raised will be | :43:49. | :43:52. | |
passed on to my ministerial colleagues. Following the comments | :43:53. | :44:03. | |
from the honourable member for Perth and your excellent article this week | :44:04. | :44:09. | |
Mr, Mr Speaker, will he arrange for a debate on whether this House | :44:10. | :44:31. | |
should continue to have a conference recess, or whether the | :44:32. | :44:39. | |
party should sort themselves out and party should sort themselves out and | :44:40. | :44:39. | |
arrange their confidence at the arrange their confidence at the | :44:40. | :44:40. | |
weekend, like the SNP do. We would be able to work out which MPs are | :44:41. | :44:40. | |
able to do the job in their -- their able to do the job in their -- their | :44:41. | :44:41. | |
job in this House and hold the government to account. There is | :44:42. | :44:42. | |
growing interest in this area. Particularly given the fact that | :44:43. | :44:44. | |
there are perhaps fewer Liberal Democrats than there used to be for | :44:45. | :44:47. | |
the confidence week. This has been raised through the usual channels. | :44:48. | :44:50. | |
Confidence became take place some years in advance. This is something | :44:51. | :44:55. | |
that needs to be dealt with carefully. I am pleased to hear | :44:56. | :45:04. | |
there will be a debate on policing, but I am concerned at the lack of | :45:05. | :45:09. | |
reality in the Leader of the House's responses on police | :45:10. | :45:13. | |
150 plus uniformed presence from the 150 plus uniformed presence from the | :45:14. | :45:20. | |
street and seen a 22% increase in violent crime in the last year. It | :45:21. | :45:23. | |
is a connection between these things. Will the Leader of the House | :45:24. | :45:28. | |
ensure that when the government come to this House to pretend there -- | :45:29. | :45:32. | |
present the debate on policing, that they face the facts as we do in our | :45:33. | :45:46. | |
communities? I can only reactivate that the crime survey shows that | :45:47. | :45:48. | |
notwithstanding some of the difficult challenges the police | :45:49. | :45:52. | |
force has had to face up to, crime has continued to fall. There is | :45:53. | :45:57. | |
scope for police officers and police forces to deliver new ways of | :45:58. | :46:04. | |
working, bringing down cost without affecting front line support to the | :46:05. | :46:08. | |
community 's. Labour run Kirklees Council have written off ?850,000 in | :46:09. | :46:16. | |
section 106 cash which was allocated to improve local infrastructure by | :46:17. | :46:20. | |
house-builders and developers. Can be debate how appalling situations | :46:21. | :46:25. | |
like this is seeing local communities lose confidence in | :46:26. | :46:30. | |
planning opportunities? I am aware of the issue. Begs questions about | :46:31. | :46:37. | |
credit control and bringing money when it is due. Local authorities | :46:38. | :46:41. | |
have the power to set timelines even to get money in advance for the | :46:42. | :46:48. | |
payments they receive. Can I suggest to him, it is a matter of concern, | :46:49. | :46:52. | |
that he raises this with the department concerned, perhaps | :46:53. | :46:56. | |
through an adjournment debate or the next time they are in this House for | :46:57. | :47:03. | |
questions? Can he share his current understanding of when legislation | :47:04. | :47:06. | |
regarding the Stormont House regarding the Stormont House | :47:07. | :47:12. | |
agreement may be brought forward? With the government continue a draft | :47:13. | :47:16. | |
committee from both houses, dealing committee from both houses, dealing | :47:17. | :47:19. | |
with the sensitive issue of legacy, which there has not been due | :47:20. | :47:23. | |
consultation with victims for a consultation with victims for a | :47:24. | :47:27. | |
variety of reasons and excuses, and this Parliament has been asked to | :47:28. | :47:33. | |
legislate in lieu of the assembly. With the government give that period | :47:34. | :47:39. | |
of special legislative scrutiny? I will discuss that with the Secretary | :47:40. | :47:41. | |
of State. We have been involved in discussions with all parties in | :47:42. | :47:46. | |
Northern Ireland, and those are continuing. We will bring it to this | :47:47. | :47:54. | |
House as soon as we can. But I will make the Secretary of State of the | :47:55. | :47:57. | |
issue he has raised. I was delighted to hear that others it will be | :47:58. | :48:04. | |
taking place on the 12th to 14th of November, and there will be an | :48:05. | :48:10. | |
opportunity for Parliament to receive him properly. That takes | :48:11. | :48:13. | |
place between the November recess of this place and during Hindu New | :48:14. | :48:18. | |
Year. Can I take the opportunity to invite the Leader of the House to | :48:19. | :48:26. | |
wish a happy, peaceful and prosperous New Year, but equally can | :48:27. | :48:30. | |
we have a statement as to the trade Guilds and educational arrangements | :48:31. | :48:30. | |
and other arrangement is taking and other arrangement is taking | :48:31. | :48:40. | |
place during that visit? I echo the happy New Year wishes he has made | :48:41. | :48:41. | |
reference to, and I hope everyone reference to, and I hope everyone | :48:42. | :48:49. | |
has an enjoyable, relaxing, successful set of New Year festival | :48:50. | :48:56. | |
's. No doubt we will all wish you, Mr Speaker, and I will make | :48:57. | :48:59. | |
House aware of the details of the House aware of the details of the | :49:00. | :49:05. | |
visit shortly. India is one of the biggest allies and it is a great | :49:06. | :49:14. | |
democracy. This is a great opportunity. We were guests last | :49:15. | :49:22. | |
night for the club the London Tigers, a sports club which does | :49:23. | :49:24. | |
amazing work with young people from all different communities, and it | :49:25. | :49:27. | |
would be appropriate to place on record our appreciation for the | :49:28. | :49:32. | |
call for the debate on families who call for the debate on families who | :49:33. | :49:35. | |
have autism in the family? I'm sure have autism in the family? I'm sure | :49:36. | :49:43. | |
recent news of more diversity in the recent news of more diversity in the | :49:44. | :49:48. | |
boardroom, it is welcome but needs boardroom, it is welcome but needs | :49:49. | :49:50. | |
to go further. Could we have an early debate on diversity, and | :49:51. | :49:58. | |
shouldn't this House be an exemplar? If you look at the photograph in the | :49:59. | :50:00. | |
corridor, it has 64 photographs of corridor, it has 64 photographs of | :50:01. | :50:15. | |
people who run the House at the senior level. Everyone is white and | :50:16. | :50:23. | |
absolutely agree, and I would say absolutely agree, and I would say | :50:24. | :50:32. | |
about the photographs out the back, about the photographs out the back, | :50:33. | :50:36. | |
we have made great progress over the we have made great progress over the | :50:37. | :50:37. | |
like in 2001 when I was elected, and like in 2001 when I was elected, and | :50:38. | :50:37. | |
what it looks like today, there is a what it looks like today, there is a | :50:38. | :50:38. | |
continue this and encourage the continue this and encourage the | :50:39. | :50:47. | |
recruitment process. I want a society that is reflected in this | :50:48. | :50:51. | |
House, and it has two reflect the society outside in all aspects of | :50:52. | :50:58. | |
its working. The plans for the station in Torbay, the first one for | :50:59. | :51:03. | |
therefore can we have a statement on therefore can we have a statement on | :51:04. | :51:09. | |
when the next tranche of station funding will be available to bid for | :51:10. | :51:14. | |
the complete this project? Unfortunately we have just had | :51:15. | :51:16. | |
transport questions, so he will have to wait before the Secretary of | :51:17. | :51:21. | |
State is back again, but his comments will have been noted. But | :51:22. | :51:28. | |
if you look around this country, 20 years after the privatisation of | :51:29. | :51:32. | |
railways, we have new railway lines opening, the start of a new service | :51:33. | :51:35. | |
from Oxford to London, something that would never have happened in | :51:36. | :51:42. | |
the days of British Rail. We have a party opposite who think we would be | :51:43. | :51:44. | |
better off renationalising everything. It would be disastrous. | :51:45. | :51:50. | |
The way we have it now, we are seeing innovations and long may that | :51:51. | :51:58. | |
continue. Last week the Prime Minister said he did not want anyone | :51:59. | :52:03. | |
relying on food banks, but this week the Work and Pensions Secretary told | :52:04. | :52:07. | |
the select committee that he planned to station job advisers and food | :52:08. | :52:12. | |
banks. Is it right that extreme food poverty should become an accepted | :52:13. | :52:19. | |
element of GWP National planning? Could we have a debate on this? She | :52:20. | :52:27. | |
has got this plain wrong. If we have people who are in need of food | :52:28. | :52:31. | |
banks, and I would remind her that we have a lower use of food banks in | :52:32. | :52:35. | |
this country than in countries like Germany, so it is simply not true | :52:36. | :52:38. | |
-- link it to public policy. That we -- link it to public policy. That we | :52:39. | :52:44. | |
should be helping these people into work and out of poverty. Making sure | :52:45. | :52:52. | |
the Jobcentre is aware of what is going on in food banks seem | :52:53. | :52:58. | |
sensible. It was an honour to present certificates recently to | :52:59. | :53:04. | |
some of the 1500 graduates of the National Citizen Service scheme. | :53:05. | :53:09. | |
real government success story and real government success story and | :53:10. | :53:12. | |
will he allow time for a debate on how we can roll out this to more | :53:13. | :53:17. | |
people every year? This has been a huge success story, this is one of | :53:18. | :53:24. | |
the things that will have the most lasting impact on the country. It is | :53:25. | :53:29. | |
growing and developing and proving a great success. It is changing the | :53:30. | :53:33. | |
lives of young people in different parts of the countries, bringing | :53:34. | :53:37. | |
together people from different backgrounds in a way that can only | :53:38. | :53:39. | |
be positive for the future. Long may it continue. The shadow leader of | :53:40. | :53:47. | |
the House was right to raise the ministerial code. Could we have an | :53:48. | :53:51. | |
urgent statement on who made the decision on changing the code, the | :53:52. | :54:02. | |
reasons for doing so? The honour of the ministerial code is the Prime | :54:03. | :54:06. | |
Minister, so there will be plenty opportunities for the honourable | :54:07. | :54:15. | |
lady to ask. On page 29 of the day's order paper there is a motion | :54:16. | :54:18. | |
about the UK dedication to the alimentary assembly of the Council | :54:19. | :54:24. | |
of Europe. It goes on to page 30 because it is signed by 58 members | :54:25. | :54:29. | |
of this House from all the major political parties. It commends the | :54:30. | :54:31. | |
work of the honourable member work of the honourable member | :54:32. | :54:42. | |
Christchurch, his years there, and I wonder if the Leader of the House | :54:43. | :54:47. | |
but put it on the order paper next but put it on the order paper next | :54:48. | :54:53. | |
week. There is not a business of the House committee, so we're relying on | :54:54. | :54:56. | |
the government to bring this motion forward. Would he bring this | :54:57. | :55:04. | |
forward? I have spotted the degree of support for this motion. I am | :55:05. | :55:12. | |
aware of the desire to debate it. What I would say is that there is | :55:13. | :55:15. | |
quite a lot of time allocated through backbench business committee | :55:16. | :55:20. | |
to debate in this House. He will return to the issue shortly, but | :55:21. | :55:24. | |
there is a simple allocation available to debate this. The chair | :55:25. | :55:33. | |
is sitting over there. The Minister may be aware of the case of 26 you | :55:34. | :55:41. | |
will transmit and who been sentenced to serve her prison sentence in a | :55:42. | :55:44. | |
men's prison. The good news I heard today is that she is to be | :55:45. | :55:58. | |
transferred to a women's prison. -- a 26-year-old trans-women. | :55:59. | :56:02. | |
in detail of this tend to be out in detail of this tend to be out | :56:03. | :56:09. | |
with the metal ministers, but the Ministry of Justice will always want | :56:10. | :56:13. | |
decisions of this nature to be taken sensitively and carefully. There are | :56:14. | :56:17. | |
questions for the House on Tuesday, and they will listen to her concerns | :56:18. | :56:27. | |
then. Can we have a debate on how to tackle cyber crime? I have received | :56:28. | :56:36. | |
complaints from constituents in the complaints from constituents in the | :56:37. | :56:52. | |
past, and there is another report in the local newspaper today, one of my | :56:53. | :56:59. | |
convincing and genuine looking convincing and genuine looking | :57:00. | :57:02. | |
e-mail purporting to come from a high street bank asking for | :57:03. | :57:02. | |
details which could lead to people details which could lead to people | :57:03. | :57:11. | |
number of quite worrying cases number of quite worrying cases | :57:12. | :57:11. | |
highlighted in recent weeks and highlighted in recent weeks and | :57:12. | :57:11. | |
months of people losing large chunks of life savings to some | :57:12. | :57:13. | |
complex and sophisticated scams. The complex and sophisticated scams. The | :57:14. | :57:16. | |
message we should give out is to be very careful. This should send | :57:17. | :57:26. | |
messages to the people we represent that they are criminal groups out | :57:27. | :57:28. | |
there who are trying to rip you off there who are trying to rip you off | :57:29. | :57:34. | |
all of the time. I keep saying to my honourable friend, keep bringing up | :57:35. | :57:36. | |
I hear the usual chuntering from a I hear the usual chuntering from a | :57:37. | :57:40. | |
sedentary position from the shadow sedentary position from the shadow | :57:41. | :57:41. | |
leader. This is a really serious leader. This is a really serious | :57:42. | :57:46. | |
issue. On television this week there was a woman who had been swindled | :57:47. | :58:06. | |
for ?35,000 by a gang who persuaded her to go to the bank and transfer | :58:07. | :58:07. | |
her money to a different account. It is not a laughing matter. Does the | :58:08. | :58:14. | |
concern being expressed in concern being expressed in | :58:15. | :58:17. | |
Birmingham and by the Birmingham Post and mail over the threat | :58:18. | :58:20. | |
Freedom of Information and will he Freedom of Information and will he | :58:21. | :58:25. | |
agree to an urgent debate on what is a threat to the cornerstone of our | :58:26. | :58:27. | |
democracy? The irony is that the person who | :58:28. | :58:37. | |
said they regretted the Freedom of Information Act most was Jack Straw | :58:38. | :58:42. | |
who introduced it and looked upon it as one of the things he got wrong. | :58:43. | :58:47. | |
The Freedom of Information Act is something this government is | :58:48. | :58:50. | |
committed to. We want to make sure it works fairly and cannot be | :58:51. | :58:57. | |
misused but it is misused by people who use it as EV search tool to | :58:58. | :59:00. | |
generate stories for the media. It is a legitimate tool for those who | :59:01. | :59:06. | |
understand how this government has taken decisions. It is not the | :59:07. | :59:10. | |
intention of this government to change that. I know from my | :59:11. | :59:17. | |
family's on experience just how devastating pancreatic cancer can be | :59:18. | :59:21. | |
and whether November being pancreatic awareness month can we | :59:22. | :59:28. | |
see what is being done to help those suffering from this disease? My | :59:29. | :59:31. | |
honourable friend makes an important point and of course all forms of | :59:32. | :59:37. | |
cancer, particularly pancreatic cancer, are deeply distressing for | :59:38. | :59:39. | |
the families of those involved and those who suffered from the | :59:40. | :59:45. | |
different varieties of cancer. One of the things that is encouraging at | :59:46. | :59:49. | |
the moment is that we really seemed to be making some significant steps | :59:50. | :59:53. | |
forward in treatment and research for treatment in future. One of the | :59:54. | :59:58. | |
things I am pleased we have done as the government is not withstanding | :59:59. | :00:01. | |
the financial pressures we face. We have continued to keep up our | :00:02. | :00:07. | |
budgets going into the search which open up a better future for those | :00:08. | :00:10. | |
who are sufferers and I hope that what continues. Since the session | :00:11. | :00:17. | |
started this morning welcome news has emerged from China that they are | :00:18. | :00:23. | |
to end their one child policy. Will the leader of the house for a debate | :00:24. | :00:28. | |
on the government's to child policy with particular reference to the | :00:29. | :00:33. | |
Greek clause? The boot them please fill details and I am a wee of the | :00:34. | :00:39. | |
issue she has raised and the fact she has continued to make this | :00:40. | :00:44. | |
concern will be conveyed to my colleagues. -- rape clause. | :00:45. | :00:52. | |
Anti-Muslim rape right -- anti-Muslim hate crime will be | :00:53. | :01:01. | |
recorded separately. Can we therefore have a debate on heat | :01:02. | :01:04. | |
crime in all of its forms and what we can do to eradicate this from our | :01:05. | :01:12. | |
society? Mr Speaker, heat crime in any form is unacceptable. I am very | :01:13. | :01:15. | |
much aware that although we have seen he's beat of anti-Semitic | :01:16. | :01:20. | |
attacks in recent months the also see in this country regularly | :01:21. | :01:24. | |
attacks on mosques and Muslims. The steps the government are taking is | :01:25. | :01:29. | |
right. We should not tolerate heat crime against any of our communities | :01:30. | :01:35. | |
in this country. We should be dealt with with the full force of the law | :01:36. | :01:42. | |
wherever that occurs. This House should remind us of obligations in | :01:43. | :01:46. | |
that direction. Can we have the debate on defence attunement and | :01:47. | :01:52. | |
buying British? Why are the three new royal navy ships and the 500 | :01:53. | :02:02. | |
last armed vehicles from the army not been built with British Steel? | :02:03. | :02:05. | |
On occasions when the Lizzie specialist metal requirement we have | :02:06. | :02:10. | |
two source the specialist metal from wherever it comes from. 90s percent | :02:11. | :02:14. | |
of the steel being put into Crossrail is coming from British | :02:15. | :02:21. | |
sources. It is disappointing in Scotland the Scottish Government has | :02:22. | :02:26. | |
not done the same. The steel going into our aircraft carriers is also | :02:27. | :02:30. | |
British Steel. The question I would ask him, he talks about defence | :02:31. | :02:34. | |
procurement and the question I would ask about defence procurement and | :02:35. | :02:39. | |
British jobs, if he is so concerned about the use of British Steel and | :02:40. | :02:44. | |
jobs in Britain, why does his party now support a policy that would | :02:45. | :02:49. | |
scrap the plans for Trident submarines to be built in Barrow in | :02:50. | :02:56. | |
Furness? When can we debate the convention that serving time | :02:57. | :03:03. | |
ministers are not invited to give evidence to select committees? There | :03:04. | :03:08. | |
is compelling evidence now that three prime ministers were | :03:09. | :03:11. | |
unwittingly but directly involved in an enterprise that cost the | :03:12. | :03:18. | |
taxpayers many millions of pounds. Isn't it important, too, that we | :03:19. | :03:23. | |
understand why three prime ministers were infatuated by the delusional | :03:24. | :03:40. | |
fraudsters of Kicks Company dinar two points to make. Everyone on both | :03:41. | :03:45. | |
sides of the House are concerned about what happened with Kicks | :03:46. | :03:52. | |
Company understanding what went wrong in that charity was not the | :03:53. | :04:08. | |
fault of some people involved in it. In my view the Beagle he is looking | :04:09. | :04:18. | |
for is already in existence. Three years ago the caravan manufacturers | :04:19. | :04:23. | |
of Hull had to fight off the caravan tax that would like their industry. | :04:24. | :04:30. | |
Now the government is buying steel from abroad and I wonder if it is | :04:31. | :04:35. | |
time we had a debate about an industrial policy for our country | :04:36. | :04:37. | |
and not every other country in the world? Let me tell her about | :04:38. | :04:45. | |
industrial policy. The industrial policy which leads to the dramatic | :04:46. | :04:50. | |
drop in level feel I boot in the UK, and industrial policy that leads | :04:51. | :04:56. | |
to the near halving of manufacturing is a policy we had under the last | :04:57. | :05:01. | |
Labour government. We have been working to restore manufacturing and | :05:02. | :05:04. | |
steel development and production is now at the same level or slightly | :05:05. | :05:09. | |
higher than when he took office. Just on occasions, they are the | :05:10. | :05:14. | |
opposition and can ask questions without remembering there on record | :05:15. | :05:21. | |
in government. When it came to manufacturing in this country they | :05:22. | :05:28. | |
made a right royal mess up. Concern about the illegal wildlife trade is | :05:29. | :05:31. | |
growing and the Duke of Cambridge spoke out about this last week. | :05:32. | :05:35. | |
Responsibility in government lies between DEFRA, the Commonwealth and | :05:36. | :05:40. | |
government office. Can we look at how we can better coordinate a UK | :05:41. | :05:44. | |
Government response to end this vile trade? I wholeheartedly agree with | :05:45. | :05:52. | |
him. To see a return to the poaching of elephants in southern Africa is | :05:53. | :05:55. | |
something I find completely distressing. The threat facing the | :05:56. | :06:01. | |
Rhino I find profoundly distressing. I would commend Prince Harry and | :06:02. | :06:05. | |
Prince William for the work they have done on this over the years. I | :06:06. | :06:10. | |
commend everyone in this House who works to work on this challenge. | :06:11. | :06:17. | |
People should be able to CDs great animals in the wild and not look at | :06:18. | :06:24. | |
on the history books about their death. The department that has the | :06:25. | :06:30. | |
biggest role in all of this it is really ought Porto we do everything | :06:31. | :06:34. | |
we can to stem what is a vile trade. -- see these great animals. | :06:35. | :06:43. | |
Gentry and contractor is a debilitating disease of the hands | :06:44. | :06:47. | |
caused by manual Labour. The industrial injuries advisory Council | :06:48. | :06:57. | |
made recommendations to the DWP last year as to why they should make this | :06:58. | :07:01. | |
a prescribed occupational disease yet there has not been any official | :07:02. | :07:06. | |
announcement. With the leader of the house make a statement about why | :07:07. | :07:09. | |
there has been such a delay which has impacted on many disabled people | :07:10. | :07:15. | |
in the UK? She raises an important issue. I do not know the answer to | :07:16. | :07:20. | |
his question but we will have the DWP minister is here on Monday and I | :07:21. | :07:23. | |
will make sure they are briefed in advance of that so they can give the | :07:24. | :07:27. | |
proper response if he raises it then. Point of order, Mr Alex | :07:28. | :07:34. | |
Salmond. At the same time as business questions it was announced | :07:35. | :07:38. | |
nicer John Chilcott why means of a letter to the tri- Minister that it | :07:39. | :07:43. | |
would be a further nine months before the Iraq enquiry is to be | :07:44. | :07:48. | |
published which will mean it is seven years since it was established | :07:49. | :07:53. | |
and the full 13 years since the war was started. Would it not just be an | :07:54. | :07:59. | |
order but a mark of respect to the 179 families of dead servicemen at | :08:00. | :08:09. | |
the government had come to the House to explore reasons of delay in the | :08:10. | :08:14. | |
enquiry and the possible legal consequences that might fall on | :08:15. | :08:19. | |
certain individuals if that enquiry allocates responsibility for the | :08:20. | :08:24. | |
illegal conflict? Yes, perhaps I should just take the leader of the | :08:25. | :08:32. | |
house. I am not exactly aware of when the letter was sent or received | :08:33. | :08:36. | |
but I am a weird and have long been that this is a matter of very, very | :08:37. | :08:42. | |
elite interest and concern to members right across the House. Part | :08:43. | :08:47. | |
I am aware. If the reader of the House would like to come to the orcs | :08:48. | :08:54. | |
we would be pleased to hear him. Let me see firstly that I share and the | :08:55. | :08:58. | |
government share the right honourable gentleman was my | :08:59. | :09:02. | |
frustration about how long this has taken. They are clearly lessons | :09:03. | :09:07. | |
which need to be learned from this whole process. It is an none of our | :09:08. | :09:11. | |
interests that this has taken so long. We were in opposition at the | :09:12. | :09:19. | |
time so have no investment in delaying this matter. It is out with | :09:20. | :09:22. | |
the control of government. The the control of government. The | :09:23. | :09:26. | |
timetable is entirely in his own hands. In terms of the timing of | :09:27. | :09:31. | |
this, I do not know either the time at which the letter was actually | :09:32. | :09:37. | |
released but it is not my job to P and a letter for Sir John Chilcott | :09:38. | :09:42. | |
before he has announced it himself. I want to hear further observations | :09:43. | :09:48. | |
on this matter. Mr Davies? I think we all agree with the member for | :09:49. | :09:55. | |
Banff and Buchan on this and with the leaders comments. These are many | :09:56. | :10:00. | |
suggestions that it has been delayed right Whitehall not leaving things | :10:01. | :10:07. | |
quickly enough and not providing enough information, by challenging | :10:08. | :10:10. | |
the ability to release information. It would be helpful to the House if | :10:11. | :10:15. | |
you were a statement and frankly this is an insult and the | :10:16. | :10:20. | |
compounding of the grief of the many families who have lost loved ones in | :10:21. | :10:27. | |
that war. I wanted to hear the points of order and will view the | :10:28. | :10:33. | |
honourable gentleman in a moment but the leader of the house is correct | :10:34. | :10:39. | |
in saying macro it is not for him to pre-empt the delivery or publication | :10:40. | :10:44. | |
of letters but unlike of what I do sense is quite a strong feeling | :10:45. | :10:48. | |
across the House, it might be extremely helpful if, when the | :10:49. | :10:51. | |
leader of the houses in full session of the facts he perhaps considers an | :10:52. | :10:58. | |
early short statement on which there would be an opportunity for | :10:59. | :11:01. | |
questioning at the start of next week. I newly put that thought to | :11:02. | :11:07. | |
him now and he has a option to refer to it. -- merrily. I can assure my | :11:08. | :11:16. | |
honourable friend that I have seen no evidence on the half of the | :11:17. | :11:20. | |
government to stall on this. We have been as keen as anyone in this House | :11:21. | :11:25. | |
to see this published. Here is no desire in the government to slow | :11:26. | :11:30. | |
this up. It is outwith our control. I will take the point raised about | :11:31. | :11:33. | |
an early statement. The committee that set up the | :11:34. | :11:44. | |
Chilcott enquiry was the public administration committee under Tony | :11:45. | :11:47. | |
right, and at the time they were misgivings about the form of | :11:48. | :11:50. | |
enquiry, and a suggestion made that it should be run by Parliament | :11:51. | :11:56. | |
directly, an entirely new form of enquiry would have been better if | :11:57. | :11:59. | |
parliamentarians had control of this. Can we have assurance from | :12:00. | :12:08. | |
government, as we have now -- no explanation about what happened in | :12:09. | :12:12. | |
Iraq, and no explanation of the enquiry into the Helmand concession | :12:13. | :12:22. | |
which resulted in 454 lives being lost, and can the government given | :12:23. | :12:30. | |
-- give an assurance that we will not be involved in the four sided | :12:31. | :12:34. | |
war in Syria before these matters will be discussed? Can I see to the | :12:35. | :12:42. | |
honourable gentleman, a statement by government to the House on this | :12:43. | :12:46. | |
matter would afford a real opportunity for him to make his | :12:47. | :12:51. | |
point, not my point -- by point of order to me, back to the Leader of | :12:52. | :12:57. | |
the House. It would perhaps be uncontroversial that had there been | :12:58. | :13:00. | |
a parliamentary committee looking at this matter, it would not have been | :13:01. | :13:07. | |
possible for it to do its work more slowly even if it had made a | :13:08. | :13:13. | |
Herculean effort to do so. I think it is important, on behalf of the | :13:14. | :13:18. | |
House, whether it concerns are perturbed them or not, that Sir John | :13:19. | :13:28. | |
should be aware that there is a very real sense of anger and frustration | :13:29. | :13:33. | |
across the whole House over what seems at this line substantial -- | :13:34. | :13:39. | |
substantial disservice as to what has been done. I am grateful for | :13:40. | :13:48. | |
this being raised and four other members underlining the strength of | :13:49. | :13:54. | |
feeling. If he could hold his forces for a moment! Point of order, Diana | :13:55. | :14:00. | |
Johnson. When ministers speak from the dispatch box I know they have to | :14:01. | :14:03. | |
make sure they are factually correct, and I am sorry to raise | :14:04. | :14:09. | |
again a point of order about a factual inaccuracy that has been | :14:10. | :14:15. | |
made by the Leader of the House. In his exchange with one of my | :14:16. | :14:18. | |
honourable friend 's this morning, he said that Labour had done nothing | :14:19. | :14:23. | |
in 13 years to deal with the issue of VAT on sanitary products. This is | :14:24. | :14:31. | |
incorrect. A Treasury minister ensured that VAT was reduced from | :14:32. | :14:47. | |
the top rate to 5% in 2001, and I hope the record can be corrected. I | :14:48. | :14:49. | |
think we should leave the exchange think we should leave the exchange | :14:50. | :14:52. | |
there, but if the leader wishes to reply he can do so. She made her | :14:53. | :14:55. | |
point clearly and it is on the record, and will be in the official | :14:56. | :14:56. | |
report. It is important to say it is not often fear to cut sentences | :14:57. | :15:01. | |
short, because I said on zero rating. We now come to backbench | :15:02. | :15:10. | |
business. The first item is a motion in the name of Mr Greer Graham | :15:11. | :15:16. | |
Allen. -- Mr Graham Allen. This is the first case in which procedures | :15:17. | :15:22. | |
have been invoked, it may be helpful if I explain what is happening. This | :15:23. | :15:29. | |
is an identical motion to that which was debated in Westminster Hall on | :15:30. | :15:34. | |
Wednesday the 14th of October, when the question was put in Westminster | :15:35. | :15:42. | |
Hall, the decision of the question was challenged. As the motion was | :15:43. | :15:50. | |
being brought before this chamber, under standing order number ten, | :15:51. | :15:55. | |
subsection 13, I am now required to put the question on the motion | :15:56. | :16:01. | |
without bait to move formally -- without debate. Formally move the | :16:02. | :16:21. | |
motion under House committee. The question is and the order paper. As | :16:22. | :16:26. | |
many as of that opinion seem-macro three. On the contrary, no. The noes | :16:27. | :16:36. | |
have it. Could you assist me on how we can take this matter forward now | :16:37. | :16:41. | |
that the House has expressed a strong views so that we can all | :16:42. | :16:45. | |
discuss the issue of our House business committee, which was in the | :16:46. | :16:51. | |
Coalition agreement, promised by the then Conservative Leader of the | :16:52. | :16:55. | |
House, and was the remaining outstanding business of the right | :16:56. | :17:00. | |
committee on reforming this chamber. Could you give us some advice on how | :17:01. | :17:04. | |
we can move this forward and actually have a genuine debate on | :17:05. | :17:06. | |
whether we need a House business committee or not? Not for the first | :17:07. | :17:13. | |
time, possibly not for the last, I feel that the honourable gentleman | :17:14. | :17:18. | |
flatters me. He does not require my advice. The honourable gentleman is | :17:19. | :17:26. | |
a sellable constitutionalist -- Sarid | :17:27. | :17:37. | |
Constitutionalist and there are number of devices where this can be | :17:38. | :17:42. | |
debated in this chamber, and he knows that he has a fellow spirit in | :17:43. | :17:49. | |
the honourable gentleman the Member for Wellingborough, and other | :17:50. | :17:52. | |
members. So the matter will come back to this House, and I have a | :17:53. | :17:57. | |
feeling he will want it to come back to this House following what has | :17:58. | :18:02. | |
just taken place, sooner rather than later. The matter cannot be avoided. | :18:03. | :18:10. | |
Point of order. Further to this, it may be useful to know that I had an | :18:11. | :18:14. | |
electronic message shortly before the motion was moved that said | :18:15. | :18:20. | |
government payroll members were instructed not to oppose the | :18:21. | :18:27. | |
creation of a business committee. So maybe the government might bring | :18:28. | :18:30. | |
this forward as a motion put for the House. -- before the House. If the | :18:31. | :18:44. | |
honourable gentleman spoke with his usual sincerity, some people may | :18:45. | :18:52. | |
think he displayed an optimism worthy of. Doctor Pangloss. I had | :18:53. | :19:08. | |
not noticed anyone displaying any great earnestness to stick to its | :19:09. | :19:13. | |
commitment to step the proposals for a House committee. Maybe in this | :19:14. | :19:14. | |
parliament it will have remembered that commitment. Maybe it will act | :19:15. | :19:18. | |
on it of its own volition, and maybe it will be congealed and harangued | :19:19. | :19:33. | |
into doing so. -- cajoled. We now come to the debatable backbench | :19:34. | :19:37. | |
of proposed reforms to tax credits. of proposed reforms to tax credits. | :19:38. | :19:48. | |
I have not selected the amendment. I move the motion. Thank you for | :19:49. | :19:57. | |
calling me and for that ruling. I wish to begin by thanking the | :19:58. | :20:03. | |
backbench committee who not only acted quickly and giving us this | :20:04. | :20:10. | |
debate but also decided we should have the whole day to debate this | :20:11. | :20:13. | |
issue, giving the importance of the matter is we are discussing the many | :20:14. | :20:23. | |
those with the money. Order paper those with the money. Order paper | :20:24. | :20:30. | |
has been signed by a large number of honourable members from all sides of | :20:31. | :20:35. | |
the House. First of all we wish to call upon the government to give us | :20:36. | :20:36. | |
more data, so that we can secondly more data, so that we can secondly | :20:37. | :20:40. | |
consider the impact of the tax credit cuts on the lower paid | :20:41. | :20:48. | |
constituents, and thirdly, given that now there is a debate raging in | :20:49. | :20:54. | |
this House as there is outside, but the House have an opportunity of | :20:55. | :20:58. | |
suggesting means by which the government might mitigate these | :20:59. | :21:03. | |
measures, although the debate has now moved so fast I do not think the | :21:04. | :21:07. | |
Treasury benches thinking merely of matters of mitigation. In this | :21:08. | :21:14. | |
opening contribution, I want to touch three things. First of all to | :21:15. | :21:21. | |
congratulate the House of Lords not in causing a constitutional crisis, | :21:22. | :21:25. | |
but giving the government a well earned opportunity to think twice | :21:26. | :21:27. | |
about its proposals. Secondly I about its proposals. Secondly I | :21:28. | :21:32. | |
would like to outline the data we need in this place to consider how | :21:33. | :21:38. | |
what was the biggest change in the budget is going to impact on our | :21:39. | :21:42. | |
introducing proposals of not near introducing proposals of not near | :21:43. | :21:49. | |
mitigation but of reformat members are putting forward now to the tax | :21:50. | :21:54. | |
credit proposals. First of all the lucky break that has been dealt to | :21:55. | :22:00. | |
the Chancellor. When the Lords rejected the statutory instrument | :22:01. | :22:01. | |
giving the government authority to go ahead with the tax credit | :22:02. | :22:10. | |
changes, I began to pity the young adviser in the Treasury who had | :22:11. | :22:16. | |
thought up this idea of putting in as a statutory instrument rather | :22:17. | :22:18. | |
than in the budget itself. While there may be issues we would | :22:19. | :22:24. | |
disagree with Lloyd George, he did have a certain wisdom in deciding | :22:25. | :22:28. | |
how to protect money resolutions in this House from interference from | :22:29. | :22:41. | |
the other place. The convention growing up before was reaffirmed | :22:42. | :22:43. | |
with legislative force they are that if a budget motion goes from this | :22:44. | :22:47. | |
House, the other place might wish to debated, but they could not | :22:48. | :22:51. | |
young adviser who suggested a young adviser who suggested a | :22:52. | :23:05. | |
wonderful pleas not to debate here on the floor of the House but to | :23:06. | :23:17. | |
committee stage upstairs. Now, as committee stage upstairs. Now, as | :23:18. | :23:19. | |
more honourable members have gone to realise the consequences of the | :23:20. | :23:20. | |
credit changes, I began to think, credit changes, I began to think, | :23:21. | :23:25. | |
well, maybe the official is for promotion. It gives a wonderful | :23:26. | :23:27. | |
cover for the government to engage cover for the government to engage | :23:28. | :23:31. | |
with us here, and with our constituents, on what might best | :23:32. | :23:33. | |
done, both in meeting the done, both in meeting the | :23:34. | :23:36. | |
government's target to reduce the deficit, but also to make sure that | :23:37. | :23:43. | |
disproportionately put on those with disproportionately put on those with | :23:44. | :23:49. | |
the weakest shoulders. It is a huge opportunity that I hope we will see | :23:50. | :23:55. | |
the actual changes. The movement has been made since the budget debate. | :23:56. | :24:01. | |
Secondly, might I make the plea for the data that this House requires so | :24:02. | :24:11. | |
that it can understand what is involved for all our constituents | :24:12. | :24:16. | |
but also particularly those strivers who get up and work, who get -- do | :24:17. | :24:21. | |
some of the least privileged jobs in society, and who governments of | :24:22. | :24:23. | |
successive complexion have found it successive complexion have found | :24:24. | :24:24. | |
good that we encourage rather than good that we encourage rather than | :24:25. | :24:38. | |
is worth remarking, you have to go is worth remarking, you have to go | :24:39. | :24:41. | |
back to Lloyd George's debate to look at the information he provided | :24:42. | :24:44. | |
the House on who would pay for his 1909 budget. The budget in which he | :24:45. | :24:49. | |
enshrined in our contribution -- Constitution that it was in this | :24:50. | :24:57. | |
place and not the other place. He provided far more information than | :24:58. | :24:59. | |
the government provided this year on who would be affected if his | :25:00. | :25:05. | |
budget. I know it was simpler then because he made it plain that | :25:06. | :25:09. | |
landlords would pay for these measures and the budget would not | :25:10. | :25:12. | |
just be distribute to the poor, but those who run in trade unions -- not | :25:13. | :25:20. | |
in trade unions and had no one to protect them. I hope the government | :25:21. | :25:26. | |
will withdraw in that innovation in starving the House of necessary | :25:27. | :25:29. | |
information. What I would like to see from the government is firstly, | :25:30. | :25:39. | |
how do we break down amongst our groups 10% of the income groups, the | :25:40. | :25:44. | |
impact of the 4.5 billion cut in tax credits. There are three big changes | :25:45. | :26:01. | |
the government has wrought in the government statement. It has reduced | :26:02. | :26:06. | |
the deficit from ?460 to next April owing its 380 -- 380 million. The | :26:07. | :26:27. | |
child element is valued at ?200,780 a year, which will be lost. This is | :26:28. | :26:34. | |
obviously affecting different groups in our constituents, and there is a | :26:35. | :26:42. | |
unity across the House that the necessary reduction in the budget | :26:43. | :26:53. | |
deficit should be born on those... We need to look at the measures | :26:54. | :27:00. | |
collectively on each decile group. Also we need to look at the type, | :27:01. | :27:11. | |
and each year up to there to the government, many of us wish to put | :27:12. | :27:17. | |
into the analysis four compensatory measures which the government argues | :27:18. | :27:22. | |
will mitigate if not all, most of those changes. | :27:23. | :27:30. | |
The PM is very one axed in telling the country that eight out of ten | :27:31. | :27:36. | |
people, families, will be better off as the result of this budget. Eight | :27:37. | :27:42. | |
out of ten will be better off but practically all of our constituents | :27:43. | :27:49. | |
who draw tax credits are in the two out of ten that have been made worse | :27:50. | :27:55. | |
off. Hopefully we will see not only the careful analysis of the cuts on | :27:56. | :27:59. | |
individual families but also to make it the rounded and fair analysis to | :28:00. | :28:09. | |
make use of the four elements that are mitigating forces. One is the | :28:10. | :28:14. | |
threshold. When the minister comes to reply maybe he will be able to | :28:15. | :28:20. | |
tell as in fact whether all of those claiming tax credits are covered or | :28:21. | :28:25. | |
is it only something like half? I may not have the opportunity to | :28:26. | :28:30. | |
comment on the Minister to reply later on but I have huge regard for | :28:31. | :28:36. | |
him. I also sympathise for the addition he is in. He is defending a | :28:37. | :28:41. | |
government beef that is actually on the move. If I can quote a president | :28:42. | :28:47. | |
which I think we'll cheer him, those who have been in this race for some | :28:48. | :28:53. | |
time watched Mrs T and John Major, to the statue looked and defend the | :28:54. | :29:00. | |
policy on cold weather payments. She decided the policy was to be changed | :29:01. | :29:05. | |
that afternoon and instructed the Minister to come along and tell the | :29:06. | :29:09. | |
House that what he had been telling them in the morning did not actually | :29:10. | :29:13. | |
fall but much better news was in store. I do hope that when the | :29:14. | :29:21. | |
Chancellor who is now in listening mode is thinking about what changes | :29:22. | :29:26. | |
he will make, that he has a generous spirit also to cover the right | :29:27. | :29:29. | |
honourable gentleman, he will allow the honourable gentleman to make the | :29:30. | :29:34. | |
announcement of what the changes are rather than screw any of the kudos | :29:35. | :29:43. | |
himself. One changes the increase in the tax threshold. Is it true that | :29:44. | :29:49. | |
only half of those who will lose out in the tax credit changes will | :29:50. | :29:52. | |
actually be compensated or partly compensated by the increase in the | :29:53. | :29:59. | |
tax threshold? Secondly is probably the most important measure the | :30:00. | :30:02. | |
government will make in this Parliament on a positive front. That | :30:03. | :30:09. | |
is the very significant increase in child care for all our constituents | :30:10. | :30:12. | |
who have children under five, the number of hours of childcare for the | :30:13. | :30:19. | |
rudest two-year-olds and all three and four-year-olds. Part poorest. | :30:20. | :30:26. | |
Will increase. The minister who will come to reply has probably the most | :30:27. | :30:33. | |
important reef of any minister and takes more responsibility for life | :30:34. | :30:39. | |
chances. If the Minister is serious about how we make sure the life | :30:40. | :30:42. | |
chances of those children born in the poorest households are raised to | :30:43. | :30:50. | |
the level of those in more privileged household, we will be | :30:51. | :30:53. | |
looking very carefully at how that extra expenditure will be spent and | :30:54. | :30:58. | |
looking at how our poorest and youngest constituents get the best | :30:59. | :31:04. | |
deal out of that childcare rather than the worst. The second | :31:05. | :31:07. | |
compensatory factor is the increasing childcare which I think | :31:08. | :31:11. | |
is the most important social measured the government is likely to | :31:12. | :31:16. | |
introduce at this Parliament. Thirdly, following closely on the | :31:17. | :31:20. | |
heels is the increase of the national minimum wage. I am grateful | :31:21. | :31:32. | |
to my right honourable friend who is making a characteristically | :31:33. | :31:34. | |
thoughtful contribution but when he comes to discuss the amelioration of | :31:35. | :31:39. | |
the third element, will he also recognised that many of the four | :31:40. | :31:42. | |
years are actually going further than the schedule for the up left in | :31:43. | :31:46. | |
the national living wage and that will be a massive welcome to many | :31:47. | :31:49. | |
across this country and have a material impact on the four elements | :31:50. | :31:56. | |
he is discussing? Many are and some are not, hence the importance of the | :31:57. | :32:01. | |
Chancellor to make this a statutory requirement. It does show the rule | :32:02. | :32:05. | |
of law when it is used cleverly in that the number of those employers | :32:06. | :32:10. | |
who previously were not interested in introducing a national living | :32:11. | :32:15. | |
wage, when I was corresponding with them, said he would not, have now | :32:16. | :32:21. | |
been among those who have in a sense been very welcome in jumping the gun | :32:22. | :32:29. | |
and actually introducing the Chancellor's national living wage | :32:30. | :32:34. | |
before the period that they must do. Isn't there another problem for | :32:35. | :32:39. | |
another sector of employers, the public sector, a number include my | :32:40. | :32:45. | |
own counsel, they are committed to being the leading wheat but quite | :32:46. | :32:48. | |
clearly they do not know whether the will be extra resources made | :32:49. | :32:53. | |
available to increase the money, the funds they have two p that along | :32:54. | :32:57. | |
with all other public sector employers? There is clearly a matter | :32:58. | :33:05. | |
of resources but also in the analysis that I am arguing for from | :33:06. | :33:09. | |
the Treasury bench today, many local authorities will be paying above | :33:10. | :33:15. | |
this level so that when we are actually looking at what the impact | :33:16. | :33:19. | |
of the national living wage with the, those workers, in a sense, have | :33:20. | :33:23. | |
already got that money in that peep at it. The local authorities will be | :33:24. | :33:29. | |
limited to the amount of increase they can make in the years we are | :33:30. | :33:34. | |
considering. That pay packet. Many workers in the public sector is with | :33:35. | :33:40. | |
not be the beneficiaries of the living wage and the significant | :33:41. | :33:45. | |
increase in the p that they will get will be limited to the requirement | :33:46. | :33:48. | |
the government has laid down and maybe that is a factor the | :33:49. | :33:52. | |
government will use in the analysis we are asking for. Which he also | :33:53. | :34:01. | |
accept that when the Dakar is compiled there should be an | :34:02. | :34:04. | |
indication as to the impact that these changes will have on those who | :34:05. | :34:09. | |
are under 25 and will not be covered out the national living wage? | :34:10. | :34:17. | |
Indeed, the V is for us to have the range of analysis which has | :34:18. | :34:21. | |
traditionally accompanied any budget statement that any member in this | :34:22. | :34:24. | |
House, however long they have served, has come to expect. It is | :34:25. | :34:33. | |
the fourth factor that members of the DWP select committee have | :34:34. | :34:37. | |
emphasised. That is, there may be some wage push as a result of the | :34:38. | :34:43. | |
introduction of a national living wage. Will that also be taken into | :34:44. | :34:49. | |
account in the government analysis? I am slightly sceptical on the | :34:50. | :34:54. | |
extent of that wage push because if one looks, again this is one of the | :34:55. | :35:00. | |
problems of actually being in this House for some time, when I was | :35:01. | :35:07. | |
initiated the low campaign the unit to campaign for a national minimum | :35:08. | :35:11. | |
wage, the trade union edition then was actually to officially was it. | :35:12. | :35:18. | |
On the grounds of opposing it was that there would be a mega- bill as | :35:19. | :35:23. | |
we re-established differentials. If we actually look at the impact of | :35:24. | :35:27. | |
the statutory minimum wage there has been a new huge bunching, there has | :35:28. | :35:32. | |
not been this egg increase in differentials that some people | :35:33. | :35:41. | |
feared or expected. I did we. I can call him my right honourable friend | :35:42. | :35:44. | |
because we have known each other 40 years. Before he leaves the question | :35:45. | :35:50. | |
of data that government provides, because it is an incredibly | :35:51. | :35:54. | |
complicated area there are components that would not normally | :35:55. | :35:59. | |
be provided, one is the national withdrawal rate of any scheme that | :36:00. | :36:03. | |
the government puts into effect. Some spokesman for the government | :36:04. | :36:06. | |
have already said people would work their way out of 30. Some of the | :36:07. | :36:14. | |
effects of this seem like a 93% withdrawal rate which means you | :36:15. | :36:18. | |
cannot work your way out of poverty, which she add that to his list? I | :36:19. | :36:24. | |
would certainly do that. I want to come back to a proposal I initially | :36:25. | :36:28. | |
made, I did not do it because I wanted to be dragged to the state | :36:29. | :36:33. | |
and earned on it, I was anxious to begin a debate and one of the | :36:34. | :36:36. | |
crucial thing is if one is asking the government to change their | :36:37. | :36:41. | |
minds, someone who had made the proposals might change their mind | :36:42. | :36:46. | |
but I will argue that any moment. I think the net withdrawal rate for | :36:47. | :36:50. | |
any proposal is very crucial and given that we have in this House but | :36:51. | :36:56. | |
it intolerable that people should pay more than 45% on their income | :36:57. | :37:01. | |
tax, he would suffer that rate of withdrawal, it is not the bad rate | :37:02. | :37:07. | |
to aim for four Bhullar people when we add income tax, national | :37:08. | :37:13. | |
insurance and withdrawal of tax credits and other benefits. I newly | :37:14. | :37:17. | |
wish to underscore the point that my right honourable friend has actually | :37:18. | :37:25. | |
made. -- merely. I am very grateful, he has been generous. Will he look | :37:26. | :37:30. | |
at the distribution geographically of the effects of these measures | :37:31. | :37:36. | |
given that, as a member for Birkenhead, he will low that they | :37:37. | :37:41. | |
are very few communities with the effects would be very widespread. It | :37:42. | :37:48. | |
will not just be proved people but poorer communities that will be | :37:49. | :37:54. | |
affected? Thank you very much. I note that the Treasury minister who | :37:55. | :37:57. | |
is going to apply also has an interest in improving Treasury the | :37:58. | :38:02. | |
tussle we can understand better tax and Treasury changes. I hope the | :38:03. | :38:07. | |
plea he is making will not fall on deaf ears. I give way. Will he also | :38:08. | :38:14. | |
take into account that we need something that is saleable to the | :38:15. | :38:17. | |
people who are benefiting from tax credits? When we talk about marginal | :38:18. | :38:23. | |
rates of return and thresholds and differentials, this is the sort of | :38:24. | :38:27. | |
language that can completely confused not only the beneficiaries | :38:28. | :38:32. | |
but also employers. Which he make it clear in negotiations with the | :38:33. | :38:35. | |
Treasury that we try to make this saleable and simple and try to keep | :38:36. | :38:40. | |
the concept is simple so that people who genuinely need tax credits can | :38:41. | :38:45. | |
clean them because there is still massive under claiming of tax | :38:46. | :38:51. | |
credits. The is and that very neatly leads me onto what might the | :38:52. | :38:56. | |
proposals reform be? I wish briefly, if I need, to touch on four. The | :38:57. | :39:02. | |
first is to make a plea to the government to recognise just how | :39:03. | :39:07. | |
quickly the whole of this debate is changing and for them to take the | :39:08. | :39:11. | |
advantage of that. In that, I think it is worth rooting on the record | :39:12. | :39:20. | |
that tax credit is here, tax credit payments, as he was emphasising, | :39:21. | :39:23. | |
argue for the long run. If we began this debate back in 2010, there was | :39:24. | :39:30. | |
talk, and use the attic talk, but almost in no time here with the a | :39:31. | :39:36. | |
new benefit, universal benefit, that would sweep up means testing and | :39:37. | :39:42. | |
deliver eight seamless service to our constituents. If one is truthful | :39:43. | :39:49. | |
but gentle about universal credit, it is regressed is very modest. I do | :39:50. | :39:55. | |
not disagree with the Secretary Of State looking back at devious errors | :39:56. | :40:00. | |
of trying to smash the forms through whatever the costs but someone in | :40:01. | :40:07. | |
government must look at how slow the progress of roll-out is and question | :40:08. | :40:13. | |
whether that will ever, ever see the light of day in a full flowering. If | :40:14. | :40:18. | |
that is true, it does raise the question of how my tax credits be | :40:19. | :40:23. | |
reshaped given that it is not for the chop, it is you for the longer | :40:24. | :40:29. | |
term, universal credit is not going to, in the lifetime of this or maybe | :40:30. | :40:34. | |
the next Parliament, make tax credits redundant. I think in the | :40:35. | :40:40. | |
debates that we had begun to have here and certainly with the public, | :40:41. | :40:48. | |
when I was recording a programme for This Morning every time I said a | :40:49. | :40:52. | |
word they ought the public would not understand we had to stop and start | :40:53. | :40:56. | |
filming again, I cannot tell you how long it to! So, we do have our own | :40:57. | :41:03. | |
language which any sense is a shorthand that is not understood by | :41:04. | :41:12. | |
people outside the. -- there. She's beaks with great authority and | :41:13. | :41:16. | |
experience on these matters. If I could suggest to him that one of the | :41:17. | :41:20. | |
very straightforward concepts that all of my constituents do understand | :41:21. | :41:25. | |
is that there is a right minded intention to get rid of taxpayer | :41:26. | :41:30. | |
subsidised poverty pay but in doing so we cannot actually say to people | :41:31. | :41:37. | |
on low pay we are going to impoverish you on that journey. The | :41:38. | :41:42. | |
very simple concept is let's talk about the instruments of doing it | :41:43. | :41:47. | |
but actually it is about getting rid of poverty pay and lifting people up | :41:48. | :41:52. | |
so that at some future date we do not have too rely on subsidy to make | :41:53. | :41:59. | |
it worthwhile going to work? I could not agree more. We have not had a | :42:00. | :42:10. | |
Chancellor who has decided to do is misplaced to take into the welfare | :42:11. | :42:14. | |
system the role that our economy takes. That leads welfare reform | :42:15. | :42:25. | |
into new areas about the new wage productivity, particularly amongst | :42:26. | :42:27. | |
those who are lowest paid, so one can safely accept this and how we | :42:28. | :42:36. | |
take it forward. My first comment hand suggestion | :42:37. | :42:47. | |
stems from the fact that the government introduce a national | :42:48. | :42:55. | |
living wage. When the people who thought of the tax credit got to | :42:56. | :42:58. | |
work, no one ever thought the government would bring it forward. | :42:59. | :43:05. | |
Therefore they incorporated in the system two aspects. One was about | :43:06. | :43:12. | |
how we subsidise and make it a more decent level, and secondly, given | :43:13. | :43:25. | |
the lifestyle and how life takes us, that those periods where every | :43:26. | :43:28. | |
they have children. The tax credit they have children. The tax credit | :43:29. | :43:35. | |
first league in asking the Treasury first league in asking the Treasury | :43:36. | :43:36. | |
bench when it is thinking about what it does in only a few weeks' time | :43:37. | :43:42. | |
and the Autumn Statement, is whether in fact we should not grow up and | :43:43. | :43:49. | |
accept we are going to have a national living wage, and there be | :43:50. | :43:57. | |
two aspects of tax credits which subsidise low wages but also take | :43:58. | :44:01. | |
some responsibility of the costs of children that should be made more | :44:02. | :44:07. | |
clear. There would be more support in the country of tax credit was | :44:08. | :44:14. | |
about the support of children rather than the need to subsidise poverty | :44:15. | :44:14. | |
wages. Give way. Would my honourable wages. Give way. Would my honourable | :44:15. | :44:32. | |
friend clarify this is about tax credits and not child tax credit, | :44:33. | :44:39. | |
which are two different benefits? The Prime Minister seems to | :44:40. | :44:46. | |
misunderstand the difference between them because he said during the | :44:47. | :44:54. | |
would not be touched, but of course, would not be touched, but of course, | :44:55. | :45:03. | |
claw-back, the amount of money you claw-back, the amount of money you | :45:04. | :45:11. | |
the threshold in which you begin to the threshold in which you begin to | :45:12. | :45:19. | |
claw back tax credits and the rate claw back tax credits and the rate | :45:20. | :45:19. | |
income, you are affecting the value income, you are affecting the value | :45:20. | :45:20. | |
of the child tax credit. That I of the child tax credit. That I | :45:21. | :45:20. | |
agree, there are two, and there are questions about the sense of having | :45:21. | :45:23. | |
two benefits serving the same purpose. The second proposal, my | :45:24. | :45:31. | |
guess is many Tory MPs have made privately to the government. I | :45:32. | :45:36. | |
cannot imagine the whips on that side are different from those on the | :45:37. | :45:39. | |
side. And if we had been in government making this proposal, the | :45:40. | :45:43. | |
whips on the side would have been very busy fawning members last | :45:44. | :45:52. | |
weekend to ask what individual and members would tolerate. One message | :45:53. | :46:01. | |
bringing them in next April was not bringing them in next April was not | :46:02. | :46:04. | |
acceptable. That would be one of the proposals. A third and more radical | :46:05. | :46:17. | |
one that again unites backbenchers is whether these changes to tax | :46:18. | :46:19. | |
credit should only apply to new claimants. It is one of the problems | :46:20. | :46:27. | |
we have of her popularity in shoving around tax payers money without | :46:28. | :46:33. | |
the music stops and people might the music stops and people might | :46:34. | :46:40. | |
think there was not actually think there was not actually | :46:41. | :46:42. | |
affordable, but in the meantime our constituents have responded to the | :46:43. | :46:48. | |
very clear messages in forms of incentives and tax credits to what | :46:49. | :46:53. | |
we wish them to do. And I think there is a sense, I have noticed it | :46:54. | :47:01. | |
publicly and privately is it is a different ball to say there a new | :47:02. | :47:06. | |
contract for people not claiming tax credits may. It is a totally | :47:07. | :47:11. | |
different ball game to actually see you have responded, you have done | :47:12. | :47:17. | |
all expected you to do, but I'm going to clobber you know for doing | :47:18. | :47:30. | |
so. He's absolutely correct that you cannot do the people change the | :47:31. | :47:39. | |
I also want to say that I have made I also want to say that I have made | :47:40. | :47:43. | |
perfectly clear what's my view is that this cannot go ahead next | :47:44. | :47:46. | |
April, and any mitigation coming in should be for mitigation. I have | :47:47. | :47:51. | |
made that view known to people on my side. It must be mitigation that | :47:52. | :47:59. | |
protects the purist households, -- poorest households, which we have a | :48:00. | :48:07. | |
lot of ink East Yorkshire. Would he accept that the government has | :48:08. | :48:13. | |
accepted the principle he has just discussed about the changes to the | :48:14. | :48:16. | |
system. Coming to pension changes, those who are coming to pension age, | :48:17. | :48:24. | |
the government has not expected their expectations to be changed, so | :48:25. | :48:30. | |
-- in receipt of tax credits? There -- in receipt of tax credits? There | :48:31. | :48:39. | |
will be very little opposition to the government introducing these | :48:40. | :48:41. | |
reforms the people who are not claiming tax credits it is very | :48:42. | :48:53. | |
different when this place has helped shape peoples lives expectations | :48:54. | :48:58. | |
under drive to all of a sudden pulled official and say they are I | :48:59. | :49:09. | |
think people here and in the country feel strongly. Give way. On this | :49:10. | :49:12. | |
specific issue of dealing with changes in relation to people coming | :49:13. | :49:17. | |
into the system, does he not realise it shows the complexity of the | :49:18. | :49:19. | |
system. Someone who is played -- paying enough to be out of the tax | :49:20. | :49:25. | |
system may be a lot and do take the job because of it does not work out | :49:26. | :49:28. | |
they come back into the system as a claimant. I was waiting for the | :49:29. | :49:35. | |
Treasury bench to point out the Treasury bench to point out the | :49:36. | :49:39. | |
difficulties with all of these moves, but it is really important | :49:40. | :49:48. | |
that the government is in the whole. We are tying to make suggestions of | :49:49. | :49:59. | |
how to get out of it. We will not get support from the Minister who is | :50:00. | :50:04. | |
humility from the government would humility from the government would | :50:05. | :50:16. | |
reinforce the requirement for this reinforce the requirement for this | :50:17. | :50:23. | |
not to be another simple yes and no measure but it ought to be part | :50:24. | :50:24. | |
primary legislation? If you were the primary legislation? If you were the | :50:25. | :50:31. | |
Chancellor, you could make the Lords agreed to the new system. If it was | :50:32. | :50:37. | |
an SI that the House cheered on its way to the other place, maybe that | :50:38. | :50:38. | |
would be wise. If it was an SI in would be wise. If it was an SI in | :50:39. | :50:43. | |
which there was deep disagreement which there was deep disagreement | :50:44. | :50:46. | |
particularly on the government side to the proposal, I think it would be | :50:47. | :50:55. | |
unwise not to do so. I give way. Isn't there also were here for a | :50:56. | :50:59. | |
little bit of forethought and pre-emption. We're six months into a | :51:00. | :51:05. | |
five-year Parliament. This is the first of many changes that may | :51:06. | :51:08. | |
happen. Could he stressed that Parliament can be seen as a partner | :51:09. | :51:15. | |
in this process, and rather than having a crisis management approach | :51:16. | :51:22. | |
to this policy, can't we involve the Treasury Select Committee, | :51:23. | :51:26. | |
colleagues in both houses, where the Treasury sets the object of but we | :51:27. | :51:29. | |
say something to help them on their way? We know there has been a | :51:30. | :51:31. | |
general election and they are entitled to get there laws, but to | :51:32. | :51:36. | |
use Parliament as a partner rather than the constant crisis management. | :51:37. | :51:48. | |
glorious opportunity to have a glorious opportunity to have a | :51:49. | :52:02. | |
Chancellor to get it right, to change his image and to become a | :52:03. | :52:11. | |
much more serious reformer on tax and benefit France. I am sure he did | :52:12. | :52:21. | |
not want to land himself, but now he not want to land himself, but now he | :52:22. | :52:29. | |
optimistic on the partnerships he optimistic on the partnerships | :52:30. | :52:30. | |
can build on the way my right can build on the way my right | :52:31. | :52:30. | |
honourable friend has spoken, but honourable friend has spoken, but | :52:31. | :52:31. | |
also the opportunity it gives him, given that it takes into account | :52:32. | :52:31. | |
effect of the welfare effect on the effect of the welfare effect on the | :52:32. | :52:32. | |
wonder whether he has realised how wonder whether he has realised how | :52:33. | :52:32. | |
significant that change is and could significant that change is and could | :52:33. | :52:33. | |
be. If the members would allow me the fourth suggestion, which is one | :52:34. | :52:43. | |
that I put forward and wish to attack no. This is largely to get | :52:44. | :52:50. | |
the debate going. To take the Chancellor serious, reform should be | :52:51. | :53:03. | |
possible to do it at zero cost, possible to do it at zero cost, | :53:04. | :53:11. | |
possible to raise thresholds to the possible to raise thresholds to the | :53:12. | :53:12. | |
national minimum wage at zero cost, national minimum wage at zero cost, | :53:13. | :53:12. | |
but it will require an even greater but it will require an even greater | :53:13. | :53:13. | |
penalty in the loss of tax credit and people above. There is not a | :53:14. | :53:18. | |
great deal of support for the idea, but merely to stress that when we | :53:19. | :53:26. | |
had this great huge uprising of the abolition of the 10p, the government | :53:27. | :53:26. | |
was adamant it was not going to was adamant it was not going to | :53:27. | :53:33. | |
big concessions, huge sums of money big concessions, huge sums of money | :53:34. | :53:36. | |
were found at the Treasury to go were found at the Treasury to go | :53:37. | :53:42. | |
everywhere but to help the 10p everywhere but to help the 10p | :53:43. | :53:44. | |
people. Therefore, supposing the Chancellor did want to go down this | :53:45. | :53:48. | |
zero cost, it is now clear he is going to put some extra money into | :53:49. | :53:54. | |
the whole operation. -- the whole operation, it should go into those | :53:55. | :54:01. | |
who will lose, not to us, who would benefit if the Chancellor raised the | :54:02. | :54:05. | |
tax threshold further on increased the National Insurance threshold. | :54:06. | :54:12. | |
Last quick point, not because I do not want to develop it further, but | :54:13. | :54:16. | |
because I am conscious of large numbers of people wanting to | :54:17. | :54:22. | |
participate. The government is going to give up 4.5 billion pounds in | :54:23. | :54:27. | |
savings towards a deficit production, supplement money come | :54:28. | :54:28. | |
from? I wish to suggest two areas. from? I wish to suggest two areas. | :54:29. | :54:36. | |
One I have lifted from the tragedy because it is now briefing the media | :54:37. | :54:43. | |
that one possible way of finding the actual resources, and what the Tory | :54:44. | :54:50. | |
minimum delay in staged introduction minimum delay in staged introduction | :54:51. | :54:58. | |
of this reform would be to have a smaller budget surplus by 2020. That | :54:59. | :55:03. | |
certainly seems to be a possibility from the Treasury, so I have put it | :55:04. | :55:13. | |
forward. The second proposal I have is that it is very interesting that | :55:14. | :55:18. | |
the Chancellor has asked for views on how we might reform pension tax | :55:19. | :55:25. | |
relief. There are huge sums of money involved here. If we abolished it | :55:26. | :55:31. | |
overnight, and I am not advocating it, I do not think we should treat | :55:32. | :55:35. | |
people who are higher up the income scale in the same horrible way the | :55:36. | :55:40. | |
government was proposing to treat those on tax credits, I think people | :55:41. | :55:42. | |
need time when government starts changing incentives, but if we do | :55:43. | :55:51. | |
change overnight, we are talking about an extra ?34 billion. These | :55:52. | :55:56. | |
are huge sums of money. If we put in 15% of the tax concession 31, it | :55:57. | :56:01. | |
would be over 15 billion. I merely raise this issue because I think the | :56:02. | :56:07. | |
government in this consultation about pension tax relief has not | :56:08. | :56:21. | |
really got up to speed with this. Government had given up the ghost of | :56:22. | :56:25. | |
which would take people off means which would take people off means | :56:26. | :56:42. | |
save more so that they would not be save more so that they would not be | :56:43. | :56:45. | |
in old age. The government is now in old age. The government is now | :56:46. | :56:47. | |
introducing a basic state pension, introducing a basic state pension, | :56:48. | :56:47. | |
which will for the first time ever have that achievement. I make way. | :56:48. | :56:50. | |
LAUGHTER I have never seen that before! I | :56:51. | :57:06. | |
thought if you were on your feet you had the right in the House and you | :57:07. | :57:09. | |
were probably speaking, but there we are. | :57:10. | :57:18. | |
Sometimes Government are very slow at looking how one really radical | :57:19. | :57:23. | |
reform will knock on other parts of their programme. I do not think the | :57:24. | :57:29. | |
Government is taking into account just what resources they begin to | :57:30. | :57:33. | |
unlock, now that we have a pension that is going to come in, which will | :57:34. | :57:39. | |
for the vast majority of people give them a pension that takes them off | :57:40. | :57:45. | |
means-tested assistance. Therefore, the reasons for bribing people to | :57:46. | :57:50. | |
save in particular ways really falls to the ground, and that does begin | :57:51. | :57:58. | |
to unlock huge, huge sums of money. So, I haven't come making proposals | :57:59. | :58:01. | |
without suggesting where money might come from. But I want to end, and I | :58:02. | :58:09. | |
want to end on what these tax credit changes mean to our constituents if | :58:10. | :58:14. | |
we are not successful today in convincing the Government very | :58:15. | :58:16. | |
radically to rethink their proposals. | :58:17. | :58:21. | |
Talking to constituents, and talking to other people's constituents in | :58:22. | :58:27. | |
television programmes, you cannot come away without being incredibly | :58:28. | :58:31. | |
conscious of the fear that people are suffering, about what these | :58:32. | :58:36. | |
effects will actually do to them. People who we should be saluting and | :58:37. | :58:42. | |
cheering, are sick with worry about how they are going to make ends | :58:43. | :58:49. | |
meet, whether they are going to lose their homes, whether the mortgages | :58:50. | :58:53. | |
can be, the interest on mortgages be repaid. Let alone the whole issues | :58:54. | :58:58. | |
ability protecting in a proper way their own children. While it is | :58:59. | :59:04. | |
important that we some time use technical language as a shorthand, I | :59:05. | :59:09. | |
am sure in this debate we are never ever going to forget what this is | :59:10. | :59:13. | |
about. This is about our constituents, about some of our most | :59:14. | :59:18. | |
vulnerable constituents, and about a whole number of our vulnerable | :59:19. | :59:22. | |
constituents, for their efforts in working we should be salutes and not | :59:23. | :59:26. | |
handing out this sentence which terrifies them. So for this reason, | :59:27. | :59:29. | |
I hope the House is going to come to one mind at the end, and pass our | :59:30. | :59:35. | |
resolution and we get a responsive, very clear response from the | :59:36. | :59:41. | |
Treasury bench. Before I call the next speaker I | :59:42. | :59:45. | |
will impose a time limit of seven minutes. There are 30 members trying | :59:46. | :59:52. | |
to catch the chair's eye plus three front bench contribution, we will | :59:53. | :59:55. | |
start with seven minute, with that Steven mechanic part land. | :59:56. | :00:02. | |
Thank you. It's a great pleasure to follow the Right Honourable member | :00:03. | :00:04. | |
for Birkenhead who has spoken a lot of sense so far, I would like to | :00:05. | :00:10. | |
join his thanks in thanking the backbench committee for allowing us | :00:11. | :00:14. | |
to is a full day to debate the issue. I fully support the motion | :00:15. | :00:19. | |
put down and I was delighted to put my name to it. I voted against the | :00:20. | :00:23. | |
statutory instrument because I could not support the Government. It | :00:24. | :00:29. | |
wasn't an easy thing to do. Am a Conservative Party MP, I did not | :00:30. | :00:32. | |
feel I could support the Government on the statutory instrument. I | :00:33. | :00:38. | |
support a high wage and low tax, a low welfare society, but I believe | :00:39. | :00:42. | |
the tax credits need to be reformed. They cost over ?30 billion a year. | :00:43. | :00:46. | |
They have snowballed. I have families who come to my surgeries | :00:47. | :00:50. | |
all the time who are very upset about the fact that no two families | :00:51. | :00:56. | |
are treated the same. There are huge overpayment, underpayment is an | :00:57. | :00:59. | |
incredibly complicated system. A billion is lost a year in fraud. | :01:00. | :01:03. | |
There are huge issues with the tax credit system but the problem was | :01:04. | :01:06. | |
the impact it was going to have on those families with the lowest | :01:07. | :01:12. | |
incomes, so, I accept, within the manifesto we said we would reduce | :01:13. | :01:16. | |
the bell fair bill by 12 billion that will is something we immediate | :01:17. | :01:20. | |
to look at. I will come on to that later. When we look at unemployment | :01:21. | :01:25. | |
benefit, a lot the debate is often round how well fair is made up of | :01:26. | :01:31. | |
unemployment. They make up a small proportion of the actual benefits | :01:32. | :01:37. | |
bill, in total. For example, the welfare cap benefit cap reducing | :01:38. | :01:42. | |
from 26,000 a year to 23,000 a year, which is popular on the doorsteps | :01:43. | :01:47. | |
during the election campaign. It will save less than ?100 million | :01:48. | :01:52. | |
because it affects less than 100 Sir Philip Hampton in the whole of the | :01:53. | :01:59. | |
-- 100,000 families in the whole of the UK. I stood up for those | :02:00. | :02:05. | |
families, that I believe Labour have left behind. I believed those | :02:06. | :02:09. | |
families who occupy the centre ground I want to occupy the Prime | :02:10. | :02:13. | |
Minister and the Chancellor spoke in their conference speeches about | :02:14. | :02:16. | |
wanting to occupy that centre ground, those families who get up, | :02:17. | :02:19. | |
and go to work, they are trying to do the right thing, they are trying | :02:20. | :02:23. | |
to support their families, they are trying to work themselves out of | :02:24. | :02:26. | |
poverty. They are the families that I support and the families I am | :02:27. | :02:30. | |
happy to fight for. They are the families that I voted against the | :02:31. | :02:35. | |
statutory instrument for, in my constituency. And across the United | :02:36. | :02:39. | |
Kingdom. Why have I been so vocal on this? I cannot believe the impact of | :02:40. | :02:46. | |
the changes was fully understood. The Right Honourable member for | :02:47. | :02:49. | |
Birkenhead gave a good critique. One of the thes I want to focus on is | :02:50. | :02:54. | |
the reduction in the threshold, where tax credits you can apply for | :02:55. | :03:01. | |
them and receive them. The reduction from ?6420 down to ?3850, that is an | :03:02. | :03:09. | |
instant ?1200 cut. Anybody who earns over 4628 pound will be hit | :03:10. | :03:12. | |
straightaway. It is far too up many of a blunt instrument for me. So, I | :03:13. | :03:18. | |
have used the example of a teaching assistant earning maybe ?11,000 a | :03:19. | :03:22. | |
year. They have restrictions on the hours they can work. They do a | :03:23. | :03:26. | |
valuable job, educating the next generation of society, future | :03:27. | :03:29. | |
leaders in business and everything else. I am very proud of the work | :03:30. | :03:33. | |
they do. I make no bone, my wife is a primary school teacher. I am proud | :03:34. | :03:39. | |
of her. My sister a secondary school teacher. They do a great job. How | :03:40. | :03:44. | |
are they expected to go out and make up that, be about a ?1400 cut to | :03:45. | :03:48. | |
their income? It is not possible. And for me, it was too much of a cut | :03:49. | :03:55. | |
all in one go. The tapering from 41% up to 48, that was only, that adds | :03:56. | :04:01. | |
only 2 or ?300 in terms of a cut. The original threshold is the ?1200 | :04:02. | :04:06. | |
cut. That is the bit I cannot support, that is the bit, why I had | :04:07. | :04:09. | |
to vote against the statutory instrument. Why I have not been able | :04:10. | :04:15. | |
to support the Government in the lobbies since then. Happy to give | :04:16. | :04:20. | |
way. I thank my honourable friend for giving way. Does he agree that a | :04:21. | :04:26. | |
basic test of the fairness of the introduction of this package is that | :04:27. | :04:29. | |
the painful part of the package, such as the reduction in the | :04:30. | :04:33. | |
threshold that he highlights shouldn't be introduced so up many | :04:34. | :04:39. | |
more quickly than the pollstive that the increase in the living wage and | :04:40. | :04:43. | |
personal allowance and other benefits that form part of the | :04:44. | :04:50. | |
package? I agree with the honourable gentleman as members can imagine. | :04:51. | :04:54. | |
For me, I would like to point out on that current mitigation, if we talk | :04:55. | :04:58. | |
about this teaching assistant or the cleaner, people in society who are | :04:59. | :05:02. | |
doing a great job for us, the people we need to reach out to. Those | :05:03. | :05:10. | |
people who are going to have to... You mention teaching assistants and | :05:11. | :05:13. | |
cleaners, I should probably declare an interest at this point, because I | :05:14. | :05:19. | |
was a teacher who was in receipt of tax credit, and at the point with | :05:20. | :05:24. | |
the scheme came into being, I was a single parent, and only that I had | :05:25. | :05:29. | |
the tax credits, I was able to remain in employment. It was a very | :05:30. | :05:34. | |
difficult time for me, and I was faced with the chance of actually | :05:35. | :05:38. | |
going into unemployment, and being with my child or remaining in work. | :05:39. | :05:43. | |
So it is not just teaching assistants and cleaner, thereby | :05:44. | :05:47. | |
others in society as well. -- there are. I a degree. I am using | :05:48. | :05:52. | |
the example of teaching assistants because I think it's a classic | :05:53. | :05:54. | |
example and people who are constricted in the hours they are | :05:55. | :05:58. | |
able to work, they can only have so many hours a week, for so many days | :05:59. | :06:02. | |
throughout the year. In terms of the current mitigation, there has been | :06:03. | :06:06. | |
talk about free childcare for three and four-year-olds and how that | :06:07. | :06:11. | |
helps set it off. If you don't it doesn't help whatsoever. There is | :06:12. | :06:16. | |
talk about the personal income tax allowance is increasing from 11,000 | :06:17. | :06:19. | |
to 12,500. I would like to see it go up to 15,000 by the end of the | :06:20. | :06:23. | |
Parliament. If you don't earn more it is of no use to you. If you are | :06:24. | :06:29. | |
on ?11,000 you are being hit with the 1200 cut. It is punishing people | :06:30. | :06:33. | |
who are going out there and trying to work and do the right thing. That | :06:34. | :06:36. | |
does not sit right with me, so that is something I could not support. | :06:37. | :06:41. | |
Happy to give way. Thank you. Would he feel a taper | :06:42. | :06:48. | |
sort of system would better suited for this particular policy? That is | :06:49. | :06:54. | |
a possible solution, I am sure the Treasury is looking into it. I would | :06:55. | :06:58. | |
like to work with the Treasury in how they can do this mitigation, and | :06:59. | :07:04. | |
hope they can listen. Give him a job. I would like to point out I | :07:05. | :07:10. | |
don't want a job. In reality, getting back to these people on | :07:11. | :07:14. | |
?11,000 a year and thereabout, who will be particularly punished by | :07:15. | :07:17. | |
this policy as it currently stands, I am pleased that the Chancellor is | :07:18. | :07:19. | |
listening and though I don't agree with the House of Lords in what they | :07:20. | :07:24. | |
are done, I accept it brought us to this particular position. I want the | :07:25. | :07:28. | |
debate not to be focussed on constitutional issues but focussed | :07:29. | :07:31. | |
on the loss of income for those people who won't have an ability to | :07:32. | :07:35. | |
make that income up else where. That is where I want it focussed. How can | :07:36. | :07:40. | |
we do this? We talk about the changes in personal income tax | :07:41. | :07:43. | |
allowance, changes from 11 thousand thousand pounds to 12,500. That will | :07:44. | :07:48. | |
cost about ?9 billion. One of the points I wanted to make was we spend | :07:49. | :07:52. | |
over 00 billion a year as a vt go. It is as if we can't find this 4.4 | :07:53. | :07:57. | |
billion that will be the end of life as we know it, which we know is not | :07:58. | :08:02. | |
going to be the case. There is a way it can be mitigated, dealt with, so | :08:03. | :08:09. | |
how do we reform tax credits without punishing these who try to do the | :08:10. | :08:14. | |
right thing. Three billion of that 4tttese who try to do the right | :08:15. | :08:17. | |
thing. Three billion of that 4.4 billion saving is that original | :08:18. | :08:22. | |
change in thresholds. Talking about the initial ?1200 cut. That broad | :08:23. | :08:27. | |
instrument that punishes, you. Whether you are earning just over | :08:28. | :08:33. | |
6,00 pounds or ?19,000. You are getting hit with that cut. It has to | :08:34. | :08:36. | |
be mitigated, it has to be changed. We have to find a way round that | :08:37. | :08:41. | |
original ?1200 cut. It is too much, too far. There is talk about a | :08:42. | :08:45. | |
discretionary hardship fund. I would welcome that for the people who are | :08:46. | :08:53. | |
struggling happy to give way. No, sorry. There has been a lot of | :08:54. | :08:58. | |
talk about National Insurance. I would like to spiel not pay any on | :08:59. | :09:05. | |
the first 11,000 of their income. It the first 11,000 of their income. It | :09:06. | :09:11. | |
would be too expensive. For me it is how... Suggest to me if you take | :09:12. | :09:15. | |
4ttt to me if you take 4.4 billion off people earning the lowest | :09:16. | :09:19. | |
incomes, that is 4.4 billion straight out the economy because you | :09:20. | :09:22. | |
are taking them out of their pockets and they use that money and go out | :09:23. | :09:25. | |
and spend right away. So every pound you take off them you are taking out | :09:26. | :09:28. | |
of the shops and the local economies. It doesn't seem to make | :09:29. | :09:32. | |
sense. I want to work with the Treasury. I can be a prodigal son, I | :09:33. | :09:40. | |
am sure I can be returned to the fold. Can I join you? You are a bit | :09:41. | :09:49. | |
more than I am. There is huge fear out there in the public and we need | :09:50. | :09:52. | |
to come forward with some proposals as fast as we can. I do want to urge | :09:53. | :09:56. | |
the Treasury to talk to us, to listen to us, to work with us, | :09:57. | :10:01. | |
because I warn the Treasury, if I think that don't come forward with | :10:02. | :10:04. | |
mitigation proposals we are going to continue to raise the issue and we | :10:05. | :10:08. | |
are going to continue trying to ensure we look after those poorest | :10:09. | :10:12. | |
in society. I accept Britain has 1 % of the world's population, generates | :10:13. | :10:17. | |
4% of the world's income and spends 7% on welfare spending. It is too | :10:18. | :10:21. | |
much. I am proud of the Conservative Party, I will continue to put | :10:22. | :10:28. | |
fairness at the heart of it. It is a real privilege to follow the | :10:29. | :10:32. | |
contribution from the member for Stevenage. Other than that last | :10:33. | :10:37. | |
sentence or two, I thought it was a tremendous speech. I do hope that | :10:38. | :10:41. | |
the Treasury bench is listening to the words that he uttered, because I | :10:42. | :10:45. | |
think there is widespread agreement within this chamber, and out new the | :10:46. | :10:49. | |
country, about the points that he made. He made a very detailed | :10:50. | :10:55. | |
analysis of the situation, and made some sensible suggestions, that I | :10:56. | :10:59. | |
think we can all support, so I hope you are able to return to the fold, | :11:00. | :11:05. | |
because we would like to see the Chancellor dig himself out of this | :11:06. | :11:08. | |
hole he has created for himself. He has certainly got himself in a real | :11:09. | :11:12. | |
situation here, we are fascinated to Woolwich how he gets himself out of | :11:13. | :11:17. | |
it. -- to watch. I think the Lords did him a favour there. I think had | :11:18. | :11:24. | |
this whole thing pass, the anger in this nation, these changes, would be | :11:25. | :11:29. | |
something we not seen, certainly in my adult life, and I think the | :11:30. | :11:32. | |
Government in a sense is being let off the hook now, in that it has an | :11:33. | :11:38. | |
opportunity to dream up some mitigation and try and put this | :11:39. | :11:42. | |
awful mess right, but they need to hurry up, because the fear of what | :11:43. | :11:47. | |
is going to happen and the uncertainty about what is going to | :11:48. | :11:49. | |
happen, is already out there. I spent Saturday morning in | :11:50. | :11:59. | |
Darlington talking to residents about the changes to tax credits. | :12:00. | :12:03. | |
And they already know what is happening. They are already | :12:04. | :12:07. | |
worried, they are already looking at their incomes, they are already | :12:08. | :12:11. | |
changing decisions and plans and financial commitments for the | :12:12. | :12:15. | |
future, and making decisions on employment already. So the | :12:16. | :12:20. | |
government needs to get on with this and come up with some decent ideas | :12:21. | :12:24. | |
that will actually work and mitigate against the very, the damage that is | :12:25. | :12:31. | |
being done that was so cleverly and successfully outlined by the member | :12:32. | :12:35. | |
for Birkenhead when he proposed this debate. I will give way. Isn't one | :12:36. | :12:44. | |
of the major problems the speed in which the tax credits cut is coming | :12:45. | :12:49. | |
in, balanced with the speed with the national minimum wage will rise, as | :12:50. | :12:54. | |
was said to me, it feels like they are removing the life belt before | :12:55. | :12:57. | |
the lifeboat has arrived. I think that will be one of the quotes of | :12:58. | :13:04. | |
the day, that is a very good way of putting this. I am speaking here on | :13:05. | :13:13. | |
behalf of the 7200 families in my constituency who care for the 3900 | :13:14. | :13:18. | |
children who will be losing out as a result of these changes. And we | :13:19. | :13:25. | |
really are, when the government brings forward whatever ideas it is | :13:26. | :13:27. | |
going to come up with in mitigation, we must have the information we need | :13:28. | :13:35. | |
in order to assess whether the idea is to mitigate the impact are | :13:36. | :13:40. | |
actually going to be effective. The member for Birkenhead outlined the | :13:41. | :13:44. | |
data that he would like to see, and I would like to see a regional | :13:45. | :13:50. | |
distribution of this. I suspect that communities like the one I represent | :13:51. | :13:57. | |
where wages are low, will be impacted more heavily than other | :13:58. | :14:00. | |
parts of the country. I am also interested in the gender impact of | :14:01. | :14:05. | |
these changes, and I would like to see how much debt the government | :14:06. | :14:09. | |
believes is being serviced by incomes that are in part made up of | :14:10. | :14:15. | |
tax credits. I suspect that there are mortgages, there are car loans, | :14:16. | :14:21. | |
debt are other personal debts, credit cards, being paid back on the | :14:22. | :14:27. | |
back of tax credits. I thank my honourable friend for giving way, | :14:28. | :14:30. | |
but the problem is about to get worse, because there are people on | :14:31. | :14:36. | |
zero hour contracts that cannot get tax credits. I think he makes a very | :14:37. | :14:42. | |
good point and I think it is for the Treasury bench to respond to that | :14:43. | :14:48. | |
intervention and I look forward to hearing the reply. This is about | :14:49. | :14:53. | |
children, and it costs an enormous amount to raise a child as many of | :14:54. | :14:57. | |
us here will know from personal experience. I have read it can take | :14:58. | :15:04. | |
between 100 and ?150,000 to raise a child, and child benefit, it did not | :15:05. | :15:10. | |
meet ten or 15% of that cost for those people who claim it. This is a | :15:11. | :15:14. | |
contribution from towards the cost of raising children. I will give | :15:15. | :15:25. | |
way. There are some children who will benefit from these changes, | :15:26. | :15:31. | |
they are the children of dead millionaires, who will get ?1 | :15:32. | :15:34. | |
million extra tax-free, does she think that is the fair transfer, | :15:35. | :15:38. | |
from the poorest to the rich in the country? No, I do not, that is a | :15:39. | :15:47. | |
pertinent point. I know we will be challenged as to whether money can | :15:48. | :15:50. | |
be found to make this change, you can change it and find it from | :15:51. | :15:56. | |
changes to tax relief in pensions and changes in inheritance tax which | :15:57. | :16:01. | |
we remain opposed to. I would like to illustrate the points I have made | :16:02. | :16:06. | |
in the limited time we have been given. We have had quite a | :16:07. | :16:09. | |
high-level discussion so far and this is actually about real people. | :16:10. | :16:13. | |
Very rarely can you find a constituent who is willing to have | :16:14. | :16:18. | |
their name and personal information, particularly about a financial | :16:19. | :16:21. | |
issue, shared in the House of Commons. But I have had no | :16:22. | :16:30. | |
difficulty at all in finding people in Darlington who are willing to | :16:31. | :16:33. | |
have their name and details to become, they would see it, as | :16:34. | :16:37. | |
becoming the poster people for these campaigns because they are so angry | :16:38. | :16:42. | |
about what the government is trying to do to them. Becky in my | :16:43. | :16:46. | |
constituency, she lives in the red Hall estate. She earns around | :16:47. | :16:53. | |
?16,500 per year. She is single parent and her son is eight years | :16:54. | :17:03. | |
old. She stands to lose ?1950 tax credits per year. She said to me | :17:04. | :17:09. | |
that she is already struggling, she has difficulty paying for essentials | :17:10. | :17:13. | |
like heating and electricity will stop she will not seek a change to | :17:14. | :17:19. | |
her salary when the wages increase. And she will not benefit from the | :17:20. | :17:22. | |
childcare changes because her son is eight years old. Eight-year-olds, I | :17:23. | :17:28. | |
can tell the Minister, no cheaper to run than a 4 -year-old. Amen! She | :17:29. | :17:38. | |
has already had to cut out extras, she can no longer buy herself | :17:39. | :17:41. | |
clothes and the reduction in income will have to come from the money she | :17:42. | :17:47. | |
spends on food or heating her home. The government, this is her words, | :17:48. | :17:52. | |
the government have told us that working was the way forward out of | :17:53. | :17:57. | |
poverty and yet these changes will put me and my son into poverty. The | :17:58. | :18:02. | |
very real choice she will have to make is between heating and feeding | :18:03. | :18:09. | |
her son, but it is also going to be, for many people, between working and | :18:10. | :18:14. | |
not working. And that is what concerns me the most. I want | :18:15. | :18:20. | |
everybody who can work in my constituency to get out and get a | :18:21. | :18:24. | |
job. Because it is good for them and it is good for their kids. But it | :18:25. | :18:30. | |
should never, ever, ever be, you should never be better off on | :18:31. | :18:34. | |
benefits than you are in work. And that will be the effect of this | :18:35. | :18:41. | |
change. I will give way. I am so grateful for giving way. Her speech | :18:42. | :18:45. | |
follows in the tradition of Eleanor Rathbone, who was here from 1929 in | :18:46. | :18:52. | |
the earliest of parliaments as a woman, and campaigned for fan in the | :18:53. | :18:54. | |
earliest of parliaments as a woman, and campaigned for constituents is | :18:55. | :19:01. | |
because in this country, we have topped up incomes understanding that | :19:02. | :19:05. | |
position for poor people and children actually four successive | :19:06. | :19:09. | |
governments. Churchill extended the system on family allowances. She | :19:10. | :19:15. | |
makes a fantastic speech. But in her last point, does she also accent | :19:16. | :19:20. | |
that people will take one, two, three jobs, and we will have | :19:21. | :19:26. | |
latchkey kids raising themselves? I am grateful for that information, I | :19:27. | :19:29. | |
wish he had made it a little bit shorter! I am speaking on but half | :19:30. | :19:40. | |
of the cooks, cleans, shop assistants, shop staff, call centre | :19:41. | :19:45. | |
workers and factory workers. This government has got to take the | :19:46. | :19:48. | |
opportunity that it has been granted by the other place and use that | :19:49. | :19:57. | |
opportunity to put this right. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. It is a | :19:58. | :20:00. | |
pleasure to speak in this debate and can I congratulate the member for | :20:01. | :20:05. | |
Birkenhead for securing the debate in support of others. This is an | :20:06. | :20:09. | |
opportune moment to discuss this in more depth, and possibly with eight | :20:10. | :20:15. | |
degree of unanimously across the benches, because this is a conflict | :20:16. | :20:18. | |
area that needs to be looked at carefully. We have heard talk of the | :20:19. | :20:22. | |
need for immediate mitigation. Really what we need to do is look at | :20:23. | :20:27. | |
this issue again. 18 years ago, the Right Honourable member for | :20:28. | :20:30. | |
Birkenhead was asked to think the unthinkable, tried to do so and was | :20:31. | :20:37. | |
properly slacked for his efforts. This is as corrugated now as it was | :20:38. | :20:43. | |
-- and was promptly sacked for his efforts. We need to look very | :20:44. | :20:49. | |
carefully at creating a system that supports working families and people | :20:50. | :20:52. | |
who are raising children, that supports people who want to do the | :20:53. | :20:55. | |
right thing. We need to create a system which does not penalised | :20:56. | :21:01. | |
those buried people due to very high reduction rates and a change that | :21:02. | :21:05. | |
would undoubtedly penalised the poorest workers in society. I find | :21:06. | :21:09. | |
myself in race into this issue feeling disappointed to say the | :21:10. | :21:15. | |
least that I am not in agreement with my government, the first five | :21:16. | :21:18. | |
years in this place, I think the changes we brought forward to the | :21:19. | :21:21. | |
welfare state, the way in which we tried to make work pay for people | :21:22. | :21:25. | |
who were willing to go out and contribute to their communities and | :21:26. | :21:28. | |
look after their families, I was proud of those changes. The most | :21:29. | :21:33. | |
moving events of my time in Parliament was when I actually | :21:34. | :21:36. | |
visited a Tesco store in Toxteth, and I have said this before, and I | :21:37. | :21:44. | |
met people who were there on a DWP effort to get people back into work. | :21:45. | :21:48. | |
And the pride and passion that those individuals had and the fact that | :21:49. | :21:52. | |
they were now working and supporting their own families was testament to | :21:53. | :21:55. | |
the changes that we were making and the fact that those changes were | :21:56. | :21:59. | |
making a real difference. There is no doubt the tax credits, whether we | :22:00. | :22:04. | |
like them or not, and the system had undoubtedly ballooned out of | :22:05. | :22:07. | |
control, but whether we like to tax credits or not, they are an | :22:08. | :22:10. | |
important element of supporting those very workers who are willing | :22:11. | :22:15. | |
to work but who have wages who are not competitive. We come to a | :22:16. | :22:20. | |
situation in which we had a Budget which was important in many ways. | :22:21. | :22:24. | |
The decision to introduce a new minimum living wage is a decision we | :22:25. | :22:27. | |
should all applaud but there is clearly a discrepancy between the | :22:28. | :22:31. | |
timing of the changes to the new living way, for example, and the | :22:32. | :22:36. | |
changes to the tax credit system. There is no balance to the way in | :22:37. | :22:40. | |
which wages will increase and the fact that the tax credits will be | :22:41. | :22:44. | |
withdrawn immediately. I welcome the fact that the Treasury is allowing | :22:45. | :22:49. | |
time for the new living wage to settle in. I represent a | :22:50. | :22:52. | |
constituency of small businesses and self traders, I have the highest | :22:53. | :23:03. | |
proportion of self-employed people in my constituency. The small | :23:04. | :23:06. | |
businesses understand we need to move higher wage economy and they | :23:07. | :23:10. | |
need to pay their staff properly. Many of them take pride in the fact | :23:11. | :23:13. | |
that they pay above the minimum wage as a main means of keeping staff in | :23:14. | :23:19. | |
place. But the small businesses appreciate the fact that the | :23:20. | :23:21. | |
government is giving them time to adapt and change their businesses | :23:22. | :23:24. | |
and business models in order to be able to pay their staff more. It is | :23:25. | :23:30. | |
therefore in my view difficult to understand why we were not able to | :23:31. | :23:34. | |
give tax credit recipients the same time to adapt and change into the | :23:35. | :23:37. | |
situation we were proposing. The decision to cut so quickly and so | :23:38. | :23:42. | |
deeply was clearly problematic and the response in both houses has | :23:43. | :23:50. | |
showing people were concerned. In terms of how do we move forward, the | :23:51. | :23:54. | |
one thing we have to be aware of is we need to educate mothers of this | :23:55. | :23:59. | |
house. I think the worst example of a crass comment in this issue was | :24:00. | :24:04. | |
the Conservative MP who stated quite clearly that if somebody loses ?30 | :24:05. | :24:09. | |
per week, they simply need to go out and work an extra three hours. I was | :24:10. | :24:15. | |
genuinely shocked by that comment because with an 80% marginal | :24:16. | :24:22. | |
reduction, an individual on ?10 per hour would need to find 15 hours | :24:23. | :24:27. | |
work to make up that loss. Where we have that kind of comment coming | :24:28. | :24:32. | |
from members who claim to understand their constituents, we need to | :24:33. | :24:36. | |
despair. We need to understand the trap that we have. I was proud of | :24:37. | :24:40. | |
the fact that universal credit was trying to reduce the marginal rate. | :24:41. | :24:44. | |
I was proud of the fact that when I sat on the welfare bill committee, | :24:45. | :24:48. | |
it was stated categorically by the minister that the aim would be to | :24:49. | :24:52. | |
reduce even further the marginal reduction rate, where funds allowed. | :24:53. | :24:56. | |
And the Prime Minister stated categorically that the Conservative | :24:57. | :25:01. | |
Party should be as concerned, even if not more concerned, about | :25:02. | :25:06. | |
marginal eduction rates of 95p that we inherited than the 50p high rate | :25:07. | :25:12. | |
of tax. It was very disappointing to see that incentive be changed as we | :25:13. | :25:19. | |
saw in these proposals. We need to look carefully at what message we | :25:20. | :25:22. | |
are sending to people when we say to them, go out and work an extra | :25:23. | :25:26. | |
couple of hours, but we will take 80% of your efforts. That is | :25:27. | :25:30. | |
something we need to be careful about. That is why when the talk | :25:31. | :25:34. | |
about mitigation, it is short-term response. Long-term, we need to to | :25:35. | :25:39. | |
to about the whole system. -- look at the whole system. I have had | :25:40. | :25:44. | |
numerous conversations with ministers, I am grateful to the | :25:45. | :25:47. | |
Minister on the government bench, who called me up and made my | :25:48. | :25:55. | |
difficulties in a long queue on the roads in Wales more bearable by | :25:56. | :25:59. | |
discussing tax credits with me. The Treasury have shown they are willing | :26:00. | :26:03. | |
to listen. We need to make sure in the long term that we look carefully | :26:04. | :26:07. | |
at how we create a system which is much more likely to support working | :26:08. | :26:10. | |
families in a way which is constructive, but in the short-term | :26:11. | :26:14. | |
he stated clearly that we should look carefully at how we can deal | :26:15. | :26:20. | |
with his ?4.4 billion gap in the government finances. I do take the | :26:21. | :26:23. | |
issue of the deficit seriously. One thing we need to think about is the | :26:24. | :26:27. | |
way in which 70% of all the benefits from the increased personal | :26:28. | :26:32. | |
allowances have gone to the highest paid in society, 70% has gone to the | :26:33. | :26:36. | |
half who are in the richest side of the society. We need to ask clearly | :26:37. | :26:45. | |
whether we can, in view of the fact that we are desperate to find 4.4 | :26:46. | :26:47. | |
billion, we need to ask, can we justify an extra 9 billion to | :26:48. | :26:50. | |
increasingly personal allowance? That could mitigate in the | :26:51. | :26:55. | |
short-term. But we need long-term plan as well. | :26:56. | :27:00. | |
He makes a very important point about how little people keep for | :27:01. | :27:06. | |
every pound extra they earn. I seem to recall that the Prime Minister | :27:07. | :27:10. | |
once took to task Gordon Brown for that very issue. It is on film and | :27:11. | :27:15. | |
you can look at it on YouTube. It is important about making work pay that | :27:16. | :27:19. | |
people feel for every extra hour they work they are making a | :27:20. | :27:22. | |
difference to their progression in their working lives. The starting | :27:23. | :27:26. | |
point nor this debate is the Chancellor's ill formed proposals to | :27:27. | :27:30. | |
reform Working Tax Credit. The truth is the distribution aspect of the | :27:31. | :27:34. | |
tax credit cuts are severely regressive. It has shown that the | :27:35. | :27:39. | |
national living wage touted as a solution to this at best undoes 20% | :27:40. | :27:44. | |
of the damage. Today what I want to start with, is how the story really | :27:45. | :27:50. | |
begin, because the story begins in 1997, when Labour came to power, the | :27:51. | :27:56. | |
only help for families was child benefit, a married person's tax | :27:57. | :27:59. | |
benefit and a child personal allowance. A small number of people | :28:00. | :28:04. | |
with disabilities also received a disability working allowance. The | :28:05. | :28:07. | |
Government then found that there were high rates of poverty among | :28:08. | :28:11. | |
families with children and tax credits were thought to be a new | :28:12. | :28:15. | |
mechanism to support those families into work as the best route out of | :28:16. | :28:19. | |
poverty. The evidence is strong. That the more far-reaching tax | :28:20. | :28:23. | |
credits and the introduction of help with childcare costs transformed the | :28:24. | :28:28. | |
prospects for millions of families. One consequence was, one outcome was | :28:29. | :28:33. | |
that the lone parent employment rate Rose, that until 2014 it is the | :28:34. | :28:39. | |
highest on record. 65.7%. That is amazing and of course, a vast | :28:40. | :28:43. | |
majority of the lone parents are women. Another outcome was that the | :28:44. | :28:47. | |
tax credits reduced child poverty. DWP confirm in the first decade of | :28:48. | :28:54. | |
tax credits child poverty fell dramatically as 1.1 million children | :28:55. | :28:58. | |
were lifted out of poverty to 2010. Secondly they gave a benefit to | :28:59. | :29:02. | |
employee, they are not simply a state hand out to bad employer. When | :29:03. | :29:06. | |
most are setting wanes they are blind to the private tax credit | :29:07. | :29:10. | |
details of their employees. What is more, they cannot pay one worker one | :29:11. | :29:15. | |
wage and the next person a different rate because they claim tax credits. | :29:16. | :29:21. | |
In most cases, the employer does not know. As a resolution report found | :29:22. | :29:26. | |
this week, if the Government removes tax credits, the employer will not | :29:27. | :29:31. | |
immediately step in to fill that void, regardless of the rises in the | :29:32. | :29:33. | |
national minimum wage or the national living wage. The Government | :29:34. | :29:38. | |
must know this, and it is wrong to suggest that the only beneficiaries | :29:39. | :29:43. | |
of tax credits are bad employers. Second, we have to challenge and | :29:44. | :29:47. | |
address the Chancellor's claim that the dost of tax credits have risen | :29:48. | :29:53. | |
from 1 billion to 30 billion today. This summer the Chancellor stated | :29:54. | :29:57. | |
the original tax credit system cost 1.1 billion in its first year, this | :29:58. | :30:00. | |
year that cost has reached 30 billion. This claim is bogus. | :30:01. | :30:08. | |
Articles by Declan Gaffney and Tim Blackwell show it relates to only | :30:09. | :30:16. | |
the first reforms which began in October 199 and only covering three | :30:17. | :30:20. | |
months of tax credit payment for a typical claimant. In its first full | :30:21. | :30:25. | |
year, 2000-2001. The cost was more like 10.5 billion, not 1.1 billion. | :30:26. | :30:29. | |
Which brings me to the question, of why the tax credit bill has | :30:30. | :30:36. | |
increased. First, tax credits, a number of previously separate | :30:37. | :30:38. | |
benefits and were more generous, I acknowledge that. But the tax | :30:39. | :30:44. | |
credits we refer to today include childcare costs introduced in 2003 | :30:45. | :30:47. | |
which no previous Government had met, so yes, it was about | :30:48. | :30:52. | |
challenging poverty pay, but as my honourable friend from Darlington | :30:53. | :30:56. | |
has referred to in her speech, it was addressing for those many | :30:57. | :30:59. | |
families, particularly women, the lone parent women, even if they were | :31:00. | :31:04. | |
on a reasonable page wage, whatever reasonable is they couldn't afford | :31:05. | :31:07. | |
to work because the amount of their wage that was being paid out in | :31:08. | :31:11. | |
terms of childcare costs. Grateful. She is making a powerful | :31:12. | :31:17. | |
case, does she agree with me that the important element about tax | :31:18. | :31:21. | |
credits was it was a means of getting particularly lone parents | :31:22. | :31:27. | |
into work. And Gingerbread have done aical I can lacing that a 5% rise | :31:28. | :31:33. | |
saves the Treasury ?436 million. So it is a benefit to the wider | :31:34. | :31:37. | |
economy, in itself, just simply getting lone parents in particular | :31:38. | :31:40. | |
into the workplace. I agree. That is another thing | :31:41. | :31:45. | |
missing from the debate. Is what are the impacts of the changes on other | :31:46. | :31:49. | |
sectors of the economy, and the wellbeing and the economic | :31:50. | :31:52. | |
opportunities it provides to people, through being in work. As I said, | :31:53. | :31:58. | |
the employment rate has gone up to 67%, which is brilliant. And the | :31:59. | :32:04. | |
worry is with these changes will it go back wards rather than improving | :32:05. | :32:08. | |
further. The total tax credits families reserve relates to their | :32:09. | :32:13. | |
income. The recession of 20082009 did have a dramatic effect on wages, | :32:14. | :32:18. | |
as wages fell, many of those families, either qualify for tax | :32:19. | :32:21. | |
credits or saw their tax credit rise. It is notable that during the | :32:22. | :32:27. | |
John Major recession, unemployment rose to a peak of 10.7% by 1993. | :32:28. | :32:34. | |
Whereas in the recession of 2008-9, many employers reduced hours or | :32:35. | :32:38. | |
didn't increase pay in order to keep staff in, who. I sort of understand | :32:39. | :32:42. | |
why they did that. I think in this House there were debates about how | :32:43. | :32:45. | |
we did appreciate employers were trying to deal with the difficult | :32:46. | :32:49. | |
situation but hold on to people in work. But, the resulting factor was | :32:50. | :32:56. | |
more people who claim tax credits or their tax credit contribution rose | :32:57. | :32:59. | |
in accordance with that. The other important fact, remember what I said | :33:00. | :33:04. | |
about the John Major recession, in that recession, in the last | :33:05. | :33:09. | |
recession, as a result of a number of factors and employers keeping | :33:10. | :33:13. | |
people in work, unemployment only rose to 8.5%. Recent figures show | :33:14. | :33:18. | |
the number of employees learning less -- earning less than the living | :33:19. | :33:23. | |
wage has risen. Holding people in work, but those very same people | :33:24. | :33:27. | |
needing more support through tax credits, this isn't a conspiracy, | :33:28. | :33:32. | |
this is a reality of an economy adjusting to finding itself in | :33:33. | :33:39. | |
difficult situations, and the state being there as a safety net to help | :33:40. | :33:43. | |
them. Without tax credits the rise in unemployment in that most serious | :33:44. | :33:46. | |
recession we have experienced could have been up many worse. I think | :33:47. | :33:49. | |
that goes a long way to explain the cost of tax credits today. This | :33:50. | :33:53. | |
week, given the voting in other place the Chancellor says he is in | :33:54. | :33:57. | |
listening mode. We must address how we support people into work and to | :33:58. | :34:01. | |
make progress to improve their living standards and the life | :34:02. | :34:07. | |
chances of their children. I agree with everything my right honourable | :34:08. | :34:09. | |
gentleman friend for Birkenhead said today. I won't repeat that. Let me | :34:10. | :34:14. | |
add a final few points, in moving forward, I think there is a number | :34:15. | :34:17. | |
of things that have to happen. First, the Government must be | :34:18. | :34:22. | |
straight about the figures relating to tax credits, only then can we | :34:23. | :34:26. | |
have a sensible conversation, second, the Chancellor needs to | :34:27. | :34:30. | |
provide a proper assessment of the impact of any new proposals on | :34:31. | :34:34. | |
incentives or disincentives to work for those who receive tax credit, I | :34:35. | :34:38. | |
ask the Chancellor if he stood up for working people why this wasn't | :34:39. | :34:41. | |
published with his last proposal. He didn't answer and that is because I | :34:42. | :34:45. | |
feel he is afraid to face the facts. Third, the Chancellor needs to ask | :34:46. | :34:50. | |
what any impact new proposals will have on child poverty. Fourthly, we | :34:51. | :34:55. | |
need to look more widely across departments, at what support | :34:56. | :34:58. | |
actually helps people to get into work, stay in work, and make | :34:59. | :35:05. | |
progress in work. I founded the first all party group on childcare | :35:06. | :35:09. | |
when I came into this place 18 years ago. It is still nod good enough for | :35:10. | :35:14. | |
many working families. This easy are the questions I need answers for, | :35:15. | :35:18. | |
for the 5300 families who are worried about the future of their | :35:19. | :35:21. | |
tax credits and their ability to hold their head up high and say, I | :35:22. | :35:25. | |
am in work, helping to support my children. | :35:26. | :35:29. | |
It is a great pleasure to speak in the debate and can I thank the | :35:30. | :35:38. | |
honourable member for Birkenhead to for initiating this debate. It has | :35:39. | :35:44. | |
been very good. I also want to thank the contributions from the | :35:45. | :35:49. | |
honourable member for Stevenage because I think, I, dare I say I am | :35:50. | :35:54. | |
getting more mature in years, I am a chairman of a Select Committee, I | :35:55. | :35:57. | |
can afford to be a bit more independent, but like I said, it is | :35:58. | :36:02. | |
not always easy in furthering your ambitions in the party, if you stand | :36:03. | :36:06. | |
up for what you believe to be right. I think we are standing up for what | :36:07. | :36:10. | |
we believe to be right, because as far as I am concerned it is | :36:11. | :36:16. | |
absolutely fundamental that people that work are better off than those | :36:17. | :36:22. | |
that don't. I think if we get this wrong, it is absolutely for me, it | :36:23. | :36:29. | |
is something I believe in. Everything I believe about the | :36:30. | :36:31. | |
Conservative Party is in order to encourage people into work, and then | :36:32. | :36:35. | |
they will be better off. And if we are not at all careful, this policy | :36:36. | :36:41. | |
will drive people back on benefit, and it will go in the opposite | :36:42. | :36:45. | |
direction that what we want, where we want to take people. | :36:46. | :36:50. | |
I very much support what the Chancellor has done with taking | :36:51. | :36:54. | |
millions of people out of tax, raising the threshold, halving the | :36:55. | :36:58. | |
deficit and driving the economy. Creating vast amounts of employment | :36:59. | :37:04. | |
in this country. I come from a constituency that only had 1% | :37:05. | :37:08. | |
unemployment. But of course, what that hides is that we have got a lot | :37:09. | :37:16. | |
of employment, but I have, let me check the actual figure, the average | :37:17. | :37:22. | |
salary in Tiverton an Honiton for full and part-time employees is | :37:23. | :37:28. | |
18,000 o 18700. The number of families claiming working and tax | :37:29. | :37:32. | |
credits is over 22%. In addition the average house price | :37:33. | :37:37. | |
in Tiverton and Honiton is round 190,000, because we have quite high | :37:38. | :37:40. | |
prices in the constituency, because it is a beautiful part of the | :37:41. | :37:45. | |
country to live. But we have got to make sure that we support those | :37:46. | :37:53. | |
people that are working hard, in our constituencies across the cub tri. | :37:54. | :37:56. | |
That is why this -- country. That is why this opportunity we have we need | :37:57. | :38:00. | |
to take it and do something real with it. What, I disagree entirely | :38:01. | :38:07. | |
with what the House of Lords did, but what it has done, as it has | :38:08. | :38:11. | |
given us an opportunity to look again. And can I be so bold to say, | :38:12. | :38:18. | |
Madam Deputy Speaker, you can have as many spin-doctors and clever | :38:19. | :38:22. | |
people with figures as you like, but this the end, when it comes to the | :38:23. | :38:28. | |
fact that when you on a low income, and you are relying on tax credits, | :38:29. | :38:33. | |
when you know that money has been taken away from you, it is | :38:34. | :38:37. | |
absolutely real. And so I think the Government and the Chancellor are in | :38:38. | :38:42. | |
this, on this occasion, and I hate to have to say it does have to be | :38:43. | :38:45. | |
absolutely certain as to how many people are going to be affected and | :38:46. | :38:50. | |
what we are going to do about it. Because again, I very much support | :38:51. | :38:57. | |
the national living wage. But again, the Government and the Chancellor | :38:58. | :39:00. | |
needs to give all those small company, because many of us have | :39:01. | :39:06. | |
very much small companies in our constituencies, which will need | :39:07. | :39:12. | |
help, in order to be able to pay the national living wage. As people get | :39:13. | :39:15. | |
more in their pockets and more from their employment. That is when we | :39:16. | :39:21. | |
can reduce the tax credits, that is when we can reduce, if you like, the | :39:22. | :39:26. | |
state subsidy on employment, because we all get that, we all know what | :39:27. | :39:31. | |
has to be done, but we cannot do its in the speed that we are doing it, | :39:32. | :39:36. | |
and drive perhaps millions of people and take money away from them, and | :39:37. | :39:42. | |
of course, you know, in, it is simple arithmetic, if you are on a | :39:43. | :39:48. | |
low salary, those ?1,000 or ?2,000, or ?1300, whatever it might be, is a | :39:49. | :39:53. | |
huge amount of your actual disposal income. It is about disposable | :39:54. | :39:58. | |
income. That is what we must remember, and so I am optimistic, I | :39:59. | :40:02. | |
have always been optimistic in my life, because I believe teleis a | :40:03. | :40:07. | |
solution. I believe there is is a solution because the Chancellor is a | :40:08. | :40:11. | |
very clever man and he should listen and I am sure he is listening, and | :40:12. | :40:16. | |
he will come back to this chamber, with some proposals, that will show | :40:17. | :40:21. | |
that working people, hard-working people, whether they are cleaning, | :40:22. | :40:26. | |
or whether they are classroom assistant, where whether they work | :40:27. | :40:29. | |
in the Health Service, the private sector, whether they work in the | :40:30. | :40:33. | |
tourism industry or whether they work on farms. They are all very | :40:34. | :40:40. | |
hard-working people. We must be a party and a government that supports | :40:41. | :40:45. | |
the hard-working person, and we have done that, up until now, and we have | :40:46. | :40:50. | |
just lost our way, a little. And I think we can come back out of the | :40:51. | :40:54. | |
wilderness, and I think we can put this right. I will give way to the | :40:55. | :41:06. | |
honourable gentleman. I couldn't agree the honourable | :41:07. | :41:10. | |
gentleman more and that is why I am here in politics today. It is to try | :41:11. | :41:15. | |
and make that happen, and that is why I think there is many of us on | :41:16. | :41:18. | |
this side of the House are prepared to stand up and be counted because | :41:19. | :41:23. | |
it is right we do so, because our constituencies expect it and I | :41:24. | :41:29. | |
believe that we can and yes, the Chancellor will say, we must | :41:30. | :41:33. | |
eradicate the deficit. Yes, we must, but if we are six months later or | :41:34. | :41:42. | |
dare I say it, a year late, in -- eradicating the deficit, people, I | :41:43. | :41:46. | |
believe, will understand. If you are taking away yes I will give way. | :41:47. | :41:52. | |
On that point you are absolutely right, and the thing that struck me | :41:53. | :41:59. | |
so much in the last week, I have received hundreds of e-mails and | :42:00. | :42:03. | |
letters. When we talk about debt and deficit, it is not the government's | :42:04. | :42:07. | |
debt and deficit, it is the people's debt and deficit. I have | :42:08. | :42:11. | |
had countless letters from wealthy people telling me that this is | :42:12. | :42:15. | |
wrong. It is absolutely right that they are part of this conversation | :42:16. | :42:19. | |
as well about how we repair the damage to our economy. It is their | :42:20. | :42:23. | |
vote as much as the person who is losing money from tax credits. I | :42:24. | :42:28. | |
thank her very much for her intervention. It is right, to coin a | :42:29. | :42:32. | |
phrase, we are in it altogether. You must make sure that when we reduced | :42:33. | :42:39. | |
the deficit, which we are doing very correctly, and we will get to | :42:40. | :42:43. | |
balance the books as ultimately we must balance the books, you cannot | :42:44. | :42:46. | |
go on borrowing forever because it will be our children and | :42:47. | :42:49. | |
grandchildren and great-grandchildren, at this rate, | :42:50. | :42:53. | |
that will pay that off. It has got to be fair as we do it, and I repeat | :42:54. | :42:58. | |
and I do not apologise for repeating the fact that work must pay, and we | :42:59. | :43:02. | |
must make sure that those in low-paid work can carry on their | :43:03. | :43:10. | |
lives. On this issue of government debt, can I remind the government | :43:11. | :43:17. | |
benches, 375 billion of that debt has been created as a consequence of | :43:18. | :43:21. | |
quantitative easing. The Bank of England had to step in and use | :43:22. | :43:25. | |
monetary policy measures because of the failure of fiscal measures by | :43:26. | :43:33. | |
the government. I will get into an argument... I do not wish to get | :43:34. | :43:40. | |
into an argument with him about quantitative easing, I would argue | :43:41. | :43:42. | |
that we would not have the employment we do have at the moment | :43:43. | :43:49. | |
as a result of those tools, we might have overused it but that is an | :43:50. | :43:53. | |
argument for history. That is where we have got the economy smoothly and | :43:54. | :43:57. | |
in the right direction. I make this final plea, and I am sure other | :43:58. | :44:00. | |
members across the whole chamber will make this plea, please, | :44:01. | :44:05. | |
Chancellor, look at this, look at how we mitigate, and how we actually | :44:06. | :44:11. | |
raise the national living wage so that we get people earning more as | :44:12. | :44:18. | |
we take away those tax credits so people will accept that. What we | :44:19. | :44:22. | |
must not do is take away the tax credit because it is not a crime, to | :44:23. | :44:30. | |
be lowly paid. If you really is not. -- it really is not. This is | :44:31. | :44:34. | |
something I fundamentally disagree with and we have got to put it right | :44:35. | :44:38. | |
because the Conservative Party and discovered's reputation is very much | :44:39. | :44:45. | |
at stake. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I have to begin by saying | :44:46. | :44:50. | |
it is not normally my business to welcome Conservative contributed to | :44:51. | :44:53. | |
this house, but I have to add knowledge and welcomed the | :44:54. | :44:57. | |
contributions from the Honourable members for Stevenage, Aberconwy and | :44:58. | :45:05. | |
Tiverton and Honasan -- Honasan. I think it goes without saying that | :45:06. | :45:09. | |
the Honourable members on these benches agreed with every thing they | :45:10. | :45:14. | |
had to say, they were brave and welcome contributions, perhaps more | :45:15. | :45:17. | |
welcome on this side than on the Treasury bench. I hope perhaps that | :45:18. | :45:24. | |
is going to probably be the only time I will welcome Conservative | :45:25. | :45:27. | |
contributions in this Parliament! I am sorry that the SNP amendment in | :45:28. | :45:32. | |
my name and my right honourable friends was not accepted, but I'm | :45:33. | :45:35. | |
still very grateful to have further opportunity to set out the SNP's | :45:36. | :45:42. | |
opposition to these cuts. And I will devote a large part of my speech and | :45:43. | :45:46. | |
time this afternoon to address the proposals put forward by the Right | :45:47. | :45:51. | |
Honourable member for Birkenhead. We have much to agree on. His proposals | :45:52. | :45:56. | |
are marginally better than those brought forward by the Chancellor. | :45:57. | :46:01. | |
But they do not protect all low-income households from the | :46:02. | :46:04. | |
Chancellor's ideological wrecking ball to Social Security. I am glad | :46:05. | :46:09. | |
the Right Honourable member has stated that he was putting these | :46:10. | :46:14. | |
forward speculatively, and I hope we can seek a greater consistency, it | :46:15. | :46:19. | |
is fair to say, from the official opposition in challenging the Tory | :46:20. | :46:23. | |
tax credit cuts. As I think we can do much better than this. I think we | :46:24. | :46:29. | |
form a very strong and united opposition on Tuesday because we | :46:30. | :46:33. | |
formed with one voice against these cuts. Since Monday, we have had | :46:34. | :46:40. | |
three different positions, Madam Deputy Speaker, from the Labour | :46:41. | :46:43. | |
Party on tax credits. They pushed a delay in the other place on Monday | :46:44. | :46:47. | |
night but opposed slapping them outright, and then to their credit, | :46:48. | :46:53. | |
joined the SNP completely opposing the cuts on Tuesday, and now today | :46:54. | :46:57. | |
we are presented with a watered down opposition which will steal remove | :46:58. | :47:00. | |
significant amount of money from low-income households. Thank you for | :47:01. | :47:07. | |
giving way. Would he agree with me that having families rely on an | :47:08. | :47:12. | |
unelected chamber to protect their tax credits from this government is | :47:13. | :47:17. | |
a ridiculous situation to be in in 2015? Would he further agree that | :47:18. | :47:23. | |
the interests of Scotland's low-paid would be far better served if all of | :47:24. | :47:30. | |
welfare was devolved to the Scottish Parliament immediately? I welcome | :47:31. | :47:38. | |
his intervention. Under the member's plan, every household under | :47:39. | :47:44. | |
a certain level would continue to lose out. Under his plan, a | :47:45. | :47:50. | |
full-time single earner household with two children and an income of | :47:51. | :47:58. | |
?15,000 would still lose out by ?700 annually. The level by which tax | :47:59. | :48:02. | |
credits were removed thereafter would be 65p in the pound. We are | :48:03. | :48:10. | |
still going to see the budget being balanced on the back of low-income | :48:11. | :48:15. | |
households. I put a number of proposals forward, and I think when | :48:16. | :48:21. | |
he is perhaps in this case a little longer, words like mitigate our | :48:22. | :48:24. | |
words used to unite people with different views, even those that | :48:25. | :48:30. | |
want to see the whole withdrawn. My dad asked him to follow -- might I | :48:31. | :48:37. | |
ask him to follow carefully, I asked him yesterday, would Scotland, even | :48:38. | :48:44. | |
after existing, not waiting for any further devolution, would Scotland | :48:45. | :48:47. | |
be able to use its revenue raising powers to compensate everyone in | :48:48. | :48:54. | |
Scotland should these changes go through? And the reply from the | :48:55. | :48:58. | |
secretary of state was, yes. So are we not going to see in Scotland, the | :48:59. | :49:02. | |
Scottish Government using revenue raising powers to actually not | :49:03. | :49:06. | |
merely put motions on the order paper, but make sure nobody in | :49:07. | :49:11. | |
Scotland discusses from these tax credit cuts? It is worth saying that | :49:12. | :49:18. | |
the SNP is, I would hope the Labour Party is looking to work with the | :49:19. | :49:21. | |
SNP wherever possible to oppose cuts that are out owing to impact on low | :49:22. | :49:28. | |
income families. -- going to impact. I do make my contribution today as | :49:29. | :49:32. | |
best as possible on the basis of consensus, because we need to work | :49:33. | :49:35. | |
together to effectively oppose what is coming down the line from the | :49:36. | :49:40. | |
Conservative government. With regards to the issue of using | :49:41. | :49:44. | |
tax-raising powers, the fiscal framework has not been agreed. We | :49:45. | :49:47. | |
have no idea what is going to be coming forward, we have no idea | :49:48. | :49:50. | |
whether it is going to be possible to raise the taxes in order to do | :49:51. | :49:57. | |
so... So I think it is a slight obfuscation from the Right | :49:58. | :50:01. | |
Honourable member to use that example. The House of Commons | :50:02. | :50:04. | |
library briefing, so we are still going to see the budget being | :50:05. | :50:08. | |
balanced on the backs of low-income households. I hope after today... I | :50:09. | :50:14. | |
thank him for giving way, he will remind the House that the Scottish | :50:15. | :50:20. | |
Government has already spent ?100 million in mitigating existing | :50:21. | :50:22. | |
attacks on the poor from this government. Absolutely, ?100 million | :50:23. | :50:29. | |
on the bedroom tax and a further ?40 million in ensuring that the council | :50:30. | :50:34. | |
tax cuts did not affect low income households in Scotland as they have | :50:35. | :50:40. | |
done in England. I hope that after today, Labour will return to where | :50:41. | :50:45. | |
it was earlier this week, when it stood side-by-side with the SNP in | :50:46. | :50:50. | |
opposing Tory cuts. The SNP will oppose the ideological, regressive | :50:51. | :50:53. | |
and punitive tax credit cuts with every opportunity open to us and we | :50:54. | :50:57. | |
do so again today because we realise the damage these will cause to | :50:58. | :51:01. | |
family incomes, levels of poverty and child poverty in these isles, | :51:02. | :51:05. | |
and to social cohesion in every community in Scotland. The Scottish | :51:06. | :51:09. | |
Government analysis task asked today at First Minister's Questions in the | :51:10. | :51:14. | |
Scottish Parliament shows that 250,000 households in Scotland will | :51:15. | :51:21. | |
lose on average ?1500 from April. And thereafter, with the changes | :51:22. | :51:24. | |
fully in demented, this could rise to an average of ?3000 per | :51:25. | :51:31. | |
household. These changes are fundamentally regressive, | :51:32. | :51:32. | |
disproportionately targeting those in low-income households and posh | :51:33. | :51:37. | |
and -- punish them for what this government's ideological obsession | :51:38. | :51:44. | |
with austerity. The SNP stood on a manifesto which was fundamentally | :51:45. | :51:47. | |
anti-austerities but stood on a responsible path for bringing down | :51:48. | :51:51. | |
the deficit. We have argued for a 0.5% increase in spending per year | :51:52. | :51:54. | |
in this government which would have released money to invest in capital | :51:55. | :52:02. | |
projects and another measure to narrow it income in quality. Our | :52:03. | :52:04. | |
plan would have brought the budget deficit down to 2% at the end of the | :52:05. | :52:12. | |
Parliament but at the same time protecting public senses. It was | :52:13. | :52:17. | |
backed by an IMF report from June this year that highlighted that | :52:18. | :52:19. | |
reducing income in a quality not only leads to reduced -- income | :52:20. | :52:29. | |
inequality not only leads to reduced inequality but also improves growth. | :52:30. | :52:35. | |
I am pushed for time, I know my colleagues are looking to get in. As | :52:36. | :52:39. | |
well as being socially destructive, as an extension of the IMF's | :52:40. | :52:43. | |
thinking, this policy is economically incompetent as well. | :52:44. | :52:47. | |
There was no mention of these wholesale cuts to tax credit in the | :52:48. | :52:52. | |
Conservative manifesto. There were just two references to tax credits, | :52:53. | :52:54. | |
neither referenced anything like these proposals we have in front of | :52:55. | :52:59. | |
us now. I reiterate that this was the central plank of this | :53:00. | :53:02. | |
Chancellor's burst budget since the election. He has based all of his | :53:03. | :53:07. | |
sons on the back of these cuts. They would have merited a passing | :53:08. | :53:11. | |
reference or at least a hint on what down the line. The Chancellor's | :53:12. | :53:18. | |
summer budget was a prized example of offices -- obfuscation, | :53:19. | :53:24. | |
suggesting that these cuts in tax credits would be mitigated by a rise | :53:25. | :53:28. | |
in the living wage is nonsense, the full rise in the national living | :53:29. | :53:36. | |
wage but not coming until four years after the tax credit cuts. Even when | :53:37. | :53:40. | |
it does come in, it still will not mitigate the tax credit cuts. Why | :53:41. | :53:48. | |
did the government decided to undermine and sabotage the real | :53:49. | :53:54. | |
minimum living wage campaign by labelling their minimum wage as | :53:55. | :53:56. | |
such? I would like to address some of the language that has been used | :53:57. | :54:00. | |
over this issue. Many of us have been focusing on impacting working | :54:01. | :54:05. | |
household and lambasting the fact that many working households will be | :54:06. | :54:09. | |
dragged into the body from the tax credit cuts. I have been as guilty | :54:10. | :54:16. | |
as others for this as I attempt to show that the government's rhetoric | :54:17. | :54:20. | |
on making work pay is a sham when we look at these cuts. There should be | :54:21. | :54:25. | |
no distinction for working or known working households who are in | :54:26. | :54:31. | |
poverty or are living in low incomes, we cannot be dragged into | :54:32. | :54:35. | |
the rhetoric of deserving or non-deserving poor, nobody deserves | :54:36. | :54:40. | |
to be living in poverty. Describing hard-working families or the working | :54:41. | :54:43. | |
poor is unhelpful, we do not know the circumstances by which these | :54:44. | :54:47. | |
people are unable to work, and we should not be judging them in the | :54:48. | :54:51. | |
way that some on the oppositions benches are, where, thereby the | :54:52. | :54:57. | |
grace of God go I. None of us know where we may find ourselves in the | :54:58. | :55:00. | |
circumstances when we are out of work. We should be working to | :55:01. | :55:05. | |
address poverty whenever it is manifested and whenever it will be | :55:06. | :55:07. | |
worsened as it will be by this Chancellor's tax credit cuts. It is | :55:08. | :55:14. | |
a privilege to speak in this debate. I1 of the co-sponsors of the debate | :55:15. | :55:20. | |
but the entire credit of the idea it belongs to the right honourable | :55:21. | :55:25. | |
member for Birkenhead. He rightly identified that what we needed was a | :55:26. | :55:30. | |
cross-party, less partisan, as it turns out, non-binding debate, which | :55:31. | :55:35. | |
will allow everybody to explore these issues properly in the | :55:36. | :55:40. | |
national interest without being feted by feelings of joining one | :55:41. | :55:43. | |
side or another in the playground of politics. The result has been very | :55:44. | :55:48. | |
good, this has been the best debate so far on this subject of a number. | :55:49. | :55:54. | |
But it does fall on us all to be honest about it. This policy was a | :55:55. | :55:59. | |
mistake. One can only think that, because I do not think anybody in | :56:00. | :56:02. | |
any party in this house would deliberately, have impoverished the | :56:03. | :56:08. | |
working poor, with dependent families. I do differentiate in this | :56:09. | :56:16. | |
context, I am afraid. That was simply not intended, I am sure. The | :56:17. | :56:20. | |
problem was, it was compounded by the... Not for the moment. It was | :56:21. | :56:25. | |
compounded by the method taken of taking eight statutory instruments, | :56:26. | :56:30. | |
so it is not amendable, and not having enough information, not | :56:31. | :56:34. | |
having a proper impact statement. For five members of this debate so | :56:35. | :56:37. | |
far have made that point. Had it been amendable and it had been prime | :56:38. | :56:43. | |
legislation and there was proper information available from the | :56:44. | :56:46. | |
government, this would not have got to the House of Lords in its current | :56:47. | :56:49. | |
form, it would have been reformed in the south and that is what should | :56:50. | :56:53. | |
have happened. I subscribe to the government's wished to others the | :56:54. | :56:58. | |
books by 2020, I think that is an eminently sensible and responsible | :56:59. | :57:02. | |
game but I also subscribe to the view that we need to protect the | :57:03. | :57:06. | |
poor at all costs. The problem is, how do we identify what the policy | :57:07. | :57:08. | |
does? I trieded to find some example for | :57:09. | :57:17. | |
which he could assess both sides of the argument. I offer my thanks by | :57:18. | :57:23. | |
the way, to the Chancellor's PPS, in helping with that, who was very | :57:24. | :57:27. | |
helpful. I was able to put some of the points he made in defence of the | :57:28. | :57:34. | |
policy to the library. I will pick out a couple of examples, as to what | :57:35. | :57:38. | |
the impact of this policy was. The worst case example I could find was | :57:39. | :57:43. | |
that of a single working single parent, with two children, who | :57:44. | :57:48. | |
without the mitigating effectses could have been ?2,000 a year worse | :57:49. | :57:54. | |
off. In virtually every year, an unbelievable sum of money to take | :57:55. | :57:59. | |
off a family that is already poor. Under the circumstances, in which | :58:00. | :58:03. | |
they are eligible for the mitigation, in particular, housing | :58:04. | :58:12. | |
benefit, that can be reduced, reduced, to 700-round about ?700. | :58:13. | :58:17. | |
The fine detail is unreliable. But ?700 virtually every year again for | :58:18. | :58:21. | |
the next four or five years. Remember, the great battle when the | :58:22. | :58:28. | |
other side was in power, over the 10% rate, was over sums a quarter of | :58:29. | :58:33. | |
that. The great battles over the poll tax were of sums that size. I | :58:34. | :58:36. | |
remember them too well. The impact on a family which is already on the | :58:37. | :58:43. | |
poverty line by definition, is unspeakable. And unthinkable. I | :58:44. | :58:49. | |
speak as somebody who grew up in a poorer era, I can remember children | :58:50. | :58:53. | |
being hungry on Friday when the bills were too big or it was too | :58:54. | :58:56. | |
cold and the heating costs were too high. So that is what we are dealing | :58:57. | :59:03. | |
with here. There are three possible strategies. Before he moves on to | :59:04. | :59:12. | |
his three possible strategies he touched on the housing benefit. Is | :59:13. | :59:18. | |
that not again of the issues with this policy somebody receiving | :59:19. | :59:20. | |
housing ebenefit would see mitigation in the current system. | :59:21. | :59:23. | |
Somebody who has bought their own property would not? That is exactly | :59:24. | :59:29. | |
right. PMQ thinksome who has their own house are better off. Many in | :59:30. | :59:35. | |
this category are people who have fallen into it and get out later. | :59:36. | :59:41. | |
It's a serious consideration, ?2,000, it is an untenable thought | :59:42. | :59:44. | |
that somebody with two children to support and on less than 20,00 | :59:45. | :59:48. | |
pounds a year themselves, so I am going to separate the strategy into | :59:49. | :59:57. | |
three, the roam for Birkenhead said four. One possible is we shift the | :59:58. | :00:02. | |
burden elsewhere. Lord Lawson said the same in the House of Lords, | :00:03. | :00:07. | |
during the debate there. That is possible. But I am not going | :00:08. | :00:11. | |
to, elaborate on it because I think there are better ways. The second | :00:12. | :00:17. | |
one is to find savings elsewhere. Now, here I did very much disagree | :00:18. | :00:23. | |
with the right honourable gentleman for Birkenhead, in his almost | :00:24. | :00:26. | |
encouragement of the Chancellor to go hunting for the pensioner pound, | :00:27. | :00:30. | |
because it won't be today's pensioner's pound he will go hunting | :00:31. | :00:34. | |
for it is tomorrow's. By taking out the, taking out the tax benefits of | :00:35. | :00:39. | |
investing in pensions and undermining what we have left of our | :00:40. | :00:43. | |
private pension scheme. I am protected, virtually all my pension | :00:44. | :00:47. | |
is paid for, but it's the next generation that have to worry about | :00:48. | :00:50. | |
that. This would be an unwise route to go. I give way. I thought I | :00:51. | :00:57. | |
thought my argument would have more appeal because it was a free market | :00:58. | :01:01. | |
one. That when Governments have guaranteed a minimum, it is not our | :01:02. | :01:04. | |
business to put our sticky fingers in other people's lives to tell them | :01:05. | :01:08. | |
how they should save or not save. Once you have a minimum pension | :01:09. | :01:12. | |
agreement, to everybody, how people save, when they save, how they save, | :01:13. | :01:17. | |
is not a question for this House. I won't go too far down the route. I | :01:18. | :01:22. | |
will say to him this, for middle class pensioner, one of the highest | :01:23. | :01:28. | |
effective income tax rates of 55% on people who have saved a lot for | :01:29. | :01:32. | |
their pension and gone above the lifetime allowance, so I think we | :01:33. | :01:36. | |
have to be careful. If you let the Treasury at that deferred income, | :01:37. | :01:39. | |
they will take as much as they can. So I just, I think it is not a route | :01:40. | :01:44. | |
which is wise. The third option which is probably the winner this, | :01:45. | :01:51. | |
it will not be by itself, is to stage the cuts, the right honourable | :01:52. | :01:55. | |
gentleman also lit upon this. To match movements in minimum wage and | :01:56. | :01:59. | |
living wage, so that people do not lose. After all, the Government's | :02:00. | :02:05. | |
figures for 2020 broadly look like they balance. They broadly look like | :02:06. | :02:08. | |
they balance. They are not perfect. We have to work through the | :02:09. | :02:11. | |
mitigation, this is where we have the impact statement again. But | :02:12. | :02:16. | |
broadly they balance and they do two things, one they protect the working | :02:17. | :02:20. | |
poor, but on the other hand they also achieve the deficit reduction. | :02:21. | :02:29. | |
And that is vital. Because if we hit that deficit reduction by 2020, as | :02:30. | :02:36. | |
my right honourable friend spoke earlier, said, this is, each year's | :02:37. | :02:41. | |
saving, each four billion a year is not critical. It is less than 1% of | :02:42. | :02:44. | |
the economy. It is not critical. The real critical issue is how the fans | :02:45. | :02:48. | |
shall markets see it. And they don't care what the trajectory is from | :02:49. | :02:53. | |
here to 2020, just the fact that we get there is good enough. -- | :02:54. | :02:56. | |
financial. We don't need to worry about the 4 billion a year, we do | :02:57. | :03:01. | |
need to worry about the final outcome, so my argument would be | :03:02. | :03:05. | |
that we should cut the tax credits in steps, minimum, in steps with | :03:06. | :03:09. | |
minimum wage and living wage. The criterion is what is important here, | :03:10. | :03:14. | |
the criterion that the Government must meet is that no losses for the | :03:15. | :03:19. | |
least well-off, in any of those three intervening years. No losses | :03:20. | :03:24. | |
the least well-off. The poorest, the working poor, the dependents cannot | :03:25. | :03:28. | |
afford to lose one pound, and so that is the test the Government has | :03:29. | :03:33. | |
to meet. After all, I was never a great fan of the minimum wage but | :03:34. | :03:36. | |
one of the things that persuaded me it was worthwhile. I have taken two | :03:37. | :03:41. | |
interventions I will lose time. One of the things that persuaded me was | :03:42. | :03:44. | |
social data that showed it cut crime. It led to a reduction in | :03:45. | :03:50. | |
crime. We must not lose sight of the social impact of these things, the | :03:51. | :03:55. | |
distress on stall, the break up. Pushing people to food bank, towards | :03:56. | :03:59. | |
worst, towards loan shark, pushing people into petty crime. There is a | :04:00. | :04:04. | |
cost on those too. The IFS said to the committee that | :04:05. | :04:09. | |
the Government could hit the 2020 target but, on a staged route. So | :04:10. | :04:13. | |
that is what we should do. That is want we should aim for, we can | :04:14. | :04:21. | |
achieve the fiscal target and still remain faithful to Conservative one | :04:22. | :04:27. | |
nation aim, which after all has been the lite motive of the last few | :04:28. | :04:33. | |
moneys for us. If we do, then the Chancellor would have gone reason to | :04:34. | :04:36. | |
be proud of his achievement P Thank you. | :04:37. | :04:42. | |
It is, it is very rewarding and refreshing to follow the honourable | :04:43. | :04:46. | |
gentleman in his comments but also other speakers today, if ministers | :04:47. | :04:49. | |
take anything from what has been said today in this debate, it is a | :04:50. | :04:56. | |
cry to just pause for a moment, deliberate upon the way that | :04:57. | :05:02. | |
proposed changes will impact on many working families, and particularly | :05:03. | :05:06. | |
people within our xhoo communities as well, and to work with | :05:07. | :05:09. | |
Parliament, to work with the Select Committee, to work with the ideas | :05:10. | :05:13. | |
that have being put forward. I don't have all the solutions today, but I | :05:14. | :05:18. | |
think the appeal made by the right honourable gentleman opposite, that | :05:19. | :05:22. | |
in, in effect it is political version of the Hippocratic oath, | :05:23. | :05:29. | |
trying to do good to constituents or do no harm before moving ahead with | :05:30. | :05:33. | |
the policies. I think the evidence is clear. I thank the roam for | :05:34. | :05:39. | |
Birkenhead in laying out so very well some of the analysis of the | :05:40. | :05:43. | |
problem that confronts the Government in the proposals it has | :05:44. | :05:50. | |
brought forward. But some of the possible solution, there are some | :05:51. | :05:53. | |
possible solutions there. But it is clear as day, as the minister goes | :05:54. | :05:58. | |
away and speaks with other ministers and cabinet colleagues that he needs | :05:59. | :06:02. | |
to take this back and rethink it. It is coming from right across the | :06:03. | :06:05. | |
benches here, right across the benches. There has been talk today | :06:06. | :06:10. | |
about lost sheep wanting to return to the flock, I would suggest those | :06:11. | :06:15. | |
lost sheep are in some ways on the sun lit Uplands, what they are | :06:16. | :06:18. | |
saying is come and join us up here. It is not they are lost, they can | :06:19. | :06:22. | |
actually see the way forward here, which need to make sure that we are | :06:23. | :06:26. | |
doing no harm to our constituents. Let me explain I am sure the | :06:27. | :06:33. | |
minister is very aware of the impact of this, within my own constituency, | :06:34. | :06:39. | |
the number of working families currently claiming tax credits is in | :06:40. | :06:46. | |
excess of 4,000 families. The number of working families with children | :06:47. | :06:54. | |
claiming those tax credits, is nearly 33,500. The number of | :06:55. | :06:58. | |
children in those families receiving tax credits as part of working | :06:59. | :07:05. | |
family, is nearly 6,000 children. That is why my mail bag at the | :07:06. | :07:10. | |
moment are full of people who are terrified of what is coming down the | :07:11. | :07:14. | |
track. They are terrified for good reason. It is not because of unreal | :07:15. | :07:22. | |
expectations of what might happen, they know, they have seen the | :07:23. | :07:29. | |
analysis. They have read it, they have read the analyses in | :07:30. | :07:34. | |
Conservative papers or support in papers, not in my news letters or | :07:35. | :07:39. | |
those submited by the Rowntree Foundation or the Children's | :07:40. | :07:43. | |
Society. They see the analysis of them and their families. If you look | :07:44. | :07:47. | |
another the impact. Mention has been made about how this impacts on | :07:48. | :07:50. | |
different communities and it is certainly the case it does have a | :07:51. | :07:54. | |
differential effect. Let me lay out the effect here in Wales. The number | :07:55. | :07:58. | |
of working families in Wales claiming tax credits, that will be o | :07:59. | :08:03. | |
taken chalet affected by this, directly in their -- potentially | :08:04. | :08:09. | |
affected be this. It is over 176,000 families. Over 250,000 families with | :08:10. | :08:14. | |
children, a, we cannot do this. It is a quarter of a million children | :08:15. | :08:18. | |
in Wales, will with after -- affected by this because of what we | :08:19. | :08:22. | |
are doing to their family, because of what we are taking away from them | :08:23. | :08:26. | |
directly. It is clear as day, that we have to change our way on this | :08:27. | :08:30. | |
policy, but lot me look at one particular aspect of this, where it | :08:31. | :08:36. | |
hits really hard. We know on average, a fifth of women's income | :08:37. | :08:41. | |
is made up of welfare payments, and tax credit, compared to round a | :08:42. | :08:46. | |
tenth for men. Benefits make up twice as much of women's income than | :08:47. | :08:53. | |
it does of men. Women... In many of those sectors we have talked about | :08:54. | :08:58. | |
already, the low paid sector, including hospital, in retail when | :08:59. | :09:02. | |
we go out and enjoy ourselves and have that coffee down as we are in | :09:03. | :09:07. | |
our shopping excursion and so on we are typically going to be served by | :09:08. | :09:12. | |
women than men, in care, in domiciliary care, in all thoef those | :09:13. | :09:16. | |
professions, they are more likely to be working part-time, and in those | :09:17. | :09:20. | |
low paid sector, if we look at those areas that we often say we respect | :09:21. | :09:26. | |
so much, the people who work in it, those areas like health and social | :09:27. | :09:30. | |
care, nearly 80% of the people who work in those sectors will be women. | :09:31. | :09:34. | |
You can see where this is going, minister. We are hitting directly at | :09:35. | :09:41. | |
those who are most unable to go out and find another job, another few | :09:42. | :09:45. | |
hour, some other way of support for them and their family and their | :09:46. | :09:49. | |
children. We go right at the most vulnerable here within our | :09:50. | :09:53. | |
community, and in huge number, huge numbers. Analysis by the Resolution | :09:54. | :09:59. | |
Foundation suggests one million single parents in work will be left | :10:00. | :10:04. | |
?1,000 a year worse off. All of this has to surely just shout out to the | :10:05. | :10:10. | |
ministers there has been an almighty cataclysmic mess here, made of this, | :10:11. | :10:15. | |
in going forward at a rate of knots. Slow down, listen to what has been | :10:16. | :10:20. | |
said, work with Parliamentarian, work with outsaid agencies who work | :10:21. | :10:24. | |
in the front line, with some of these people who will be affected. | :10:25. | :10:27. | |
But work with the Select Committees to take it forward. This is too | :10:28. | :10:30. | |
difficult an issue for the Government to do on its own. The | :10:31. | :10:35. | |
purpose of this, yes, to make work pay, excellent, but then it has to | :10:36. | :10:40. | |
pay for everybody. Everybody, not just some. At the moment, this could | :10:41. | :10:46. | |
impact on a community, it is going to be devastating and it will wash | :10:47. | :10:50. | |
right through not only those individual families but into the | :10:51. | :10:55. | |
communities themselves because this will have an economic knock on in a | :10:56. | :11:00. | |
cycle a regressive cycle of spending power, as well. So I would say to | :11:01. | :11:06. | |
the minister, consider the options that have been put for today. Go | :11:07. | :11:09. | |
back and look at what other option there might be out there, but there | :11:10. | :11:16. | |
is no way on earth, it is saleable politically to do this, but more | :11:17. | :11:22. | |
importantly, on the basic human issues, of do no harm to your | :11:23. | :11:26. | |
constituents. I can't go and sell what is being proposed on the | :11:27. | :11:29. | |
doorstep in my constituency. I won't do it. I want to tell these people | :11:30. | :11:32. | |
it is worth going out to work. Go and get a job if you can. Go and up | :11:33. | :11:38. | |
scale if you can and we will make it worth your while. That is our job | :11:39. | :11:40. | |
here. congratulate a member of the | :11:41. | :11:53. | |
opposition benches for initiating a debate of such magnitude as this. I | :11:54. | :12:02. | |
said before I would like to thank my honourable friend, and indeed, I | :12:03. | :12:06. | |
think a lot of people in this chamber to see the Honourable member | :12:07. | :12:10. | |
for Birkenhead as quite a leading light in welfare of the people of | :12:11. | :12:14. | |
this country. I do remember before I was in politics, the Honourable | :12:15. | :12:20. | |
member, being sacked for thinking the unthinkable. I remember that | :12:21. | :12:25. | |
very, very plainly. And here we are. We are debating today about tax | :12:26. | :12:30. | |
credits. The debate: Has been very measured. -- the tone of the debate | :12:31. | :12:37. | |
has been very measured. We have had a very balanced views from all | :12:38. | :12:43. | |
sites. Tax credits were brought in. Let me make some progress please. | :12:44. | :12:47. | |
Tax credits were brought in for the right reasons. But it is a fact that | :12:48. | :12:53. | |
it did spiral out of control. When nine out of ten people who claim tax | :12:54. | :13:02. | |
credits, we have two ask, is it a sweetener for working or is it a | :13:03. | :13:10. | |
benefit as it was claimed to be? In technology the contribution of the | :13:11. | :13:13. | |
Right Honourable member for Birkenhead in securing this debate, | :13:14. | :13:19. | |
would he also add knowledge of the role of the other house -- | :13:20. | :13:23. | |
acknowledged the role of the other house for creating a different | :13:24. | :13:27. | |
context for this debate? The tone that he remarked on would not be | :13:28. | :13:30. | |
what we were hearing if it was not for Monday night and the position | :13:31. | :13:34. | |
forced on the Chancellor. I would disagree with my honourable friend, | :13:35. | :13:38. | |
the Honourable gentleman come on this particular debate in the other | :13:39. | :13:45. | |
place. Because I do think it was unprecedented that that actual | :13:46. | :13:50. | |
motion was passed. But I have got my own words to say about that in | :13:51. | :13:53. | |
another context which you will probably read about over the | :13:54. | :13:58. | |
weekend. Going back to tax credits, we were in the position where | :13:59. | :14:03. | |
everybody was on a tax credit, near enough. They were a stepping stone | :14:04. | :14:08. | |
to gainful employment. And the Honourable Lady from... From Don | :14:09. | :14:15. | |
Valley, said it right. The employers, the employers do not | :14:16. | :14:21. | |
know, the employers do not know if their employees are on tax credit. I | :14:22. | :14:26. | |
employed over 100 people and some were claiming tax credits and I | :14:27. | :14:29. | |
found that only down the line in certain circumstances. It is mainly | :14:30. | :14:34. | |
a hidden benefit. I applaud the Chancellor is trying to do. I do not | :14:35. | :14:42. | |
really go with this ?1300 average loss to 3 million households, stacks | :14:43. | :14:48. | |
up. Because they are estimates. We do not really know what is going to | :14:49. | :14:52. | |
come out of what is going to be in the spending review. However, we do | :14:53. | :14:56. | |
know what has already happened by raising the personal tax allowance | :14:57. | :15:03. | |
to 11,000 coming up in April, and 12,520 20. That will help out and | :15:04. | :15:08. | |
create ?1000 worth of the tax break to people all across the country. | :15:09. | :15:16. | |
But we are offering 30 hours of free childcare, which again amounts to | :15:17. | :15:20. | |
?5,000. We have got fuel duty which has been frozen. The economy is on | :15:21. | :15:25. | |
the up. And as the Honourable Lady... I would love to give way. I | :15:26. | :15:31. | |
think what we say about 30 hours free childcare, I think most of the | :15:32. | :15:35. | |
people listening in the gallery today or outside of this place will | :15:36. | :15:38. | |
think that is for all children in any form of childcare. I think we | :15:39. | :15:42. | |
need to have an honest debate. It is 30 hours of free childcare for those | :15:43. | :15:46. | |
three and four-year-old in nursery education, that does not begin to | :15:47. | :15:50. | |
help with those families that have different aged children. The cuts to | :15:51. | :15:54. | |
the working tax credits fundamentally affect those families | :15:55. | :15:57. | |
get access to support with other childcare costs in order to pick up | :15:58. | :16:03. | |
a job and stay in work. I thank her for that intervention, it was very | :16:04. | :16:08. | |
eloquently put. What she has demonstrated clearly if there is a | :16:09. | :16:13. | |
confusion, is it tax credits, child tax credits, the whole survey of it. | :16:14. | :16:18. | |
As I was rightly going to -- sphere of it. As I was going to point out | :16:19. | :16:23. | |
before, tax credits were brought in to help families struggling in times | :16:24. | :16:27. | |
of great posterity. We are still in times of great austerity but the | :16:28. | :16:33. | |
economy is on the up and we are starting to see projections of our | :16:34. | :16:36. | |
economy starting to come out of recession mode and into a lack of | :16:37. | :16:40. | |
deficit with the next five to ten years. So what all these figures | :16:41. | :16:43. | |
mean? These figures plainly and mean? These figures plainly and | :16:44. | :16:49. | |
simply mean this. We have to balance the books, and we have to look at | :16:50. | :16:53. | |
everywhere we can possibly do so. We have to think the unthinkable. As I | :16:54. | :16:58. | |
keep saying it, my honourable friend, the member for Birkenhead, | :16:59. | :17:04. | |
did think all those years ago. I do actually have faith in the | :17:05. | :17:07. | |
Chancellor, I do know the Chancellor personally. He is a good, decent, | :17:08. | :17:12. | |
caring man. Despite what you read in newspapers, despite what is said | :17:13. | :17:16. | |
about him. And I know the Chancellor will be watching this debate, he be | :17:17. | :17:22. | |
hearing is what we are saying and he will be thinking. All I can say is, | :17:23. | :17:26. | |
yes, nine out of ten people were claiming tax credits. And as the | :17:27. | :17:34. | |
Right Honourable gentleman for Birkenhead said, this many benefits, | :17:35. | :17:39. | |
eight out of ten people, but we must look and care for those two people | :17:40. | :17:44. | |
in that ten and make sure that we get the right deal for them. Thank | :17:45. | :17:51. | |
you very much. Mad and if it is beta, like most people, I obviously | :17:52. | :17:58. | |
-- Madam Deputy Speaker, like most people, I would obviously prefer the | :17:59. | :18:01. | |
Chancellor to scrap his tax credit proposals and go back to the drawing | :18:02. | :18:06. | |
board. Not because I am against the phasing out of tax credits, but I am | :18:07. | :18:10. | |
prepared to accept that there might be an argument for saying that it is | :18:11. | :18:15. | |
time for new measures of support. And if we can raise living standards | :18:16. | :18:19. | |
without tax credits, for working families, then that is a desirable | :18:20. | :18:27. | |
aim. And obviously, freezing the value of tax credits is a clear | :18:28. | :18:30. | |
indication that they are on the way out anyway. The truth is, the | :18:31. | :18:34. | |
Chancellor has made a pig in this. He has blundered and low-paid, | :18:35. | :18:42. | |
hard-working parents will pay the price for his mistakes. If we can | :18:43. | :18:47. | |
take the prime minister at his word, I think he suggested during his six | :18:48. | :18:52. | |
nonanswers yesterday, that there would be some attempt to address | :18:53. | :18:57. | |
this mess in the Autumn Statement. Normally his word would be good | :18:58. | :19:01. | |
enough for me, but of course, this is the same prime minister who gave | :19:02. | :19:06. | |
his word on national television that tax credits would be safe. Is it any | :19:07. | :19:12. | |
surprise that within five months of the election, people are beginning | :19:13. | :19:15. | |
to wonder about the long-term future of this government? The benches | :19:16. | :19:21. | |
opposite have taken to telling us that they have a mandate. Let's just | :19:22. | :19:26. | |
remind ourselves that this is a government that didn't expect to | :19:27. | :19:31. | |
win, that secured less than 40% of the popular vote, trade unionists, | :19:32. | :19:39. | |
please note. It has a limited mandate and many more shenanigans | :19:40. | :19:42. | |
like this tax credit to buckle and it will have no moral authority. As | :19:43. | :19:50. | |
I said, there may be an argument for phasing out tax credits, and if we | :19:51. | :19:58. | |
can have some clear indication of government determination that wages | :19:59. | :20:00. | |
and living standards will rise to compensate, most people will accept | :20:01. | :20:08. | |
change. But there is absolutely no sense in a steel fragile economy -- | :20:09. | :20:14. | |
in the still fragile economy in taking money from the working poor | :20:15. | :20:18. | |
before their wages have risen. I think it is also a mistake for some | :20:19. | :20:23. | |
in the party opposite to attempt to demonise Gordon Brown and tax | :20:24. | :20:30. | |
credits as a policy instrument. The Adam Smith Institute recently | :20:31. | :20:36. | |
pointed out that working tax credits are the best form of welfare we | :20:37. | :20:41. | |
have, and that simply cutting tax credits will serve as a disincentive | :20:42. | :20:48. | |
to work and hurt those at the lowest levels of society. They also point | :20:49. | :20:52. | |
out that the new minimum wage structure which the Chancellor | :20:53. | :20:56. | |
deliberately misleading the calls a living wage will do little to help | :20:57. | :21:04. | |
those affected by these cuts. At the institute says, enticing more people | :21:05. | :21:10. | |
into work was one of the stated aims behind the working tax credit and | :21:11. | :21:13. | |
attacking it for having achieved this end seems somewhat perverse. | :21:14. | :21:17. | |
Now I want to consider what changes the Chancellor might make, I read he | :21:18. | :21:25. | |
might speed up the increase in the personal tax allowance but | :21:26. | :21:28. | |
increasing the personal tax allowance could cost ?12 billion and | :21:29. | :21:33. | |
70% of that benefit goes to the top half of the income distribution | :21:34. | :21:38. | |
curve. It is actually worth less than ?1 25 per week for working | :21:39. | :21:44. | |
families. I am not at all convinced that such a costly measured in these | :21:45. | :21:50. | |
economically difficult times is the best way to help the low-paid. The | :21:51. | :21:54. | |
House of Commons library has produced simple way to calculate the | :21:55. | :21:58. | |
impact of the combined effect of the reduced threshold and the increased | :21:59. | :22:04. | |
paper which form the centrepiece of the Chancellor's plans, so a family | :22:05. | :22:10. | |
with two children on ?20,420 will, in conversation be ?2200 worse off. | :22:11. | :22:19. | |
3.3 million working households will be losers, over 8000 of them, Madam | :22:20. | :22:25. | |
Deputy Speaker, in my constituency. The Chancellor could decide to | :22:26. | :22:31. | |
change the disregard level. This would not undo the damage he plans | :22:32. | :22:38. | |
to inflict but it would commit a -- mitigate the effect and it would | :22:39. | :22:43. | |
mean that a single parent with two children under school age could lose | :22:44. | :22:50. | |
a lot less money. And he could scale back plans on the paper from 41-48, | :22:51. | :23:00. | |
that would mitigate the impact on those struggling to make a living. | :23:01. | :23:05. | |
He might also decide to turn the clock back and recognise family | :23:06. | :23:08. | |
response when it is in the tax system by reintroducing some kind of | :23:09. | :23:11. | |
tax allowance for children as a feature of our tax system. And of | :23:12. | :23:15. | |
course, he could use the Autumn Statement to revisit his plans in | :23:16. | :23:20. | |
cuts on inheritance tax, and the cuts he has already given to | :23:21. | :23:24. | |
millionaires. If we are in it together, somebody over their | :23:25. | :23:27. | |
suggested, this time we had some evidence to back up the | :23:28. | :23:33. | |
anti-statements. As the former higher education minister now Lord | :23:34. | :23:36. | |
Willets point out in his book, what is really at fault is the balance is | :23:37. | :23:41. | |
wrong. Young people and young families are taking far too big a | :23:42. | :23:47. | |
hit and what we need to do is restructure our welfare system. My | :23:48. | :23:50. | |
honourable friend from Nottingham North suggests earlier that the | :23:51. | :23:57. | |
Chancellor had the parliament should involve parliament. I would like to | :23:58. | :24:01. | |
suggest he involves my right honourable friend from Birkenhead | :24:02. | :24:04. | |
and his works and pensions select committee because what I think we | :24:05. | :24:09. | |
desperately need is a system that promises fairness and support for | :24:10. | :24:12. | |
young people and families and a welfare system that encourages and | :24:13. | :24:18. | |
incentivises people. But above all, the government must make it clear | :24:19. | :24:24. | |
that it is its sincere intention to roll back from this mad cliff edge | :24:25. | :24:32. | |
that it is currently on. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I write to | :24:33. | :24:38. | |
support the visible of mitigating effect of proposed tax credit | :24:39. | :24:46. | |
changes to low-paid workers, and I suggest that even friends need to be | :24:47. | :24:49. | |
critical of long as it is constructive. I would like to thank | :24:50. | :24:52. | |
the honourable member for Birkenhead for bringing forward the bait. I | :24:53. | :24:56. | |
would like to start by saying that I do support the principle of reforms | :24:57. | :24:59. | |
to tax credits. We need to get on top of our welfare bills. This | :25:00. | :25:03. | |
financial year, central government will spend more on that interest | :25:04. | :25:07. | |
repayments than it will on the education of our children, more than | :25:08. | :25:10. | |
on the defence of our nation. We cannot keep going on spending | :25:11. | :25:13. | |
indefinitely, adding to our debts, and as suggested by my honourable | :25:14. | :25:17. | |
friend the member for South Cambridgeshire, asking our children | :25:18. | :25:22. | |
to pay it off. The honourable member talks about doing no harm, but we | :25:23. | :25:27. | |
must also be mindful of the harm to our constituents of not tackling the | :25:28. | :25:30. | |
deficit and burdening future generations with more debt, although | :25:31. | :25:34. | |
I'd take his substantive point. The current tax credit system is not | :25:35. | :25:44. | |
sustainable, costs have skyrocketed from 4,000,000,019 99 to 30 billion | :25:45. | :25:47. | |
this year. This has had the effect of depressing basic wages and | :25:48. | :25:55. | |
business. As the former Labour Chancellor said tax credits, one of | :25:56. | :25:58. | |
the unintended consequences is that we are now subsidising lower majors | :25:59. | :26:03. | |
in a way that was intended. -- lower wages. The welfare system is there | :26:04. | :26:07. | |
to provide a safety net for the most memorable in our society and those | :26:08. | :26:11. | |
on the lowest incomes, and I fully support moves to move Britain to a | :26:12. | :26:16. | |
high wage, low watt tax, low welfare economy. I am concerned that these | :26:17. | :26:21. | |
tax credit changes could be very tough on some of our lowest paid | :26:22. | :26:24. | |
families and more needs to be done to ease that transition for those | :26:25. | :26:28. | |
easing away from tax credits next year. Many families who have worked | :26:29. | :26:32. | |
hard and done the right thing, everything we have asked them to do, | :26:33. | :26:37. | |
will be needed he hit by a drop in income. I know the gunmen had | :26:38. | :26:40. | |
introduced a package of measures to introduce an increase in pay like | :26:41. | :26:47. | |
the living wage, doubling the free childcare, although I take the point | :26:48. | :26:55. | |
that it is restricted to three and four-year-olds, and a raising of the | :26:56. | :27:00. | |
income tax personal allowance to 2500. I am aware that many of these | :27:01. | :27:04. | |
actions do not take effect immediately in 2016. I was a concern | :27:05. | :27:07. | |
about the effect the tax credit cuts might have on some that work in the | :27:08. | :27:13. | |
public sector, my wife is a teacher. Many of the biggest employers in my | :27:14. | :27:18. | |
constituency are in the public sector. Public sector pay over the | :27:19. | :27:22. | |
next few years has been frozen at 1% as we all know, meaning many of | :27:23. | :27:25. | |
these workers will not benefit from rises in private sector pay. And | :27:26. | :27:29. | |
many of these workers in these sectors rely on tax credits to tap | :27:30. | :27:33. | |
up their income and make ends meet. Moreover, cost saving measures in | :27:34. | :27:37. | |
the public sector mean that these workers cannot take on additional | :27:38. | :27:42. | |
hours to raise income. I have had these concerns about some of the | :27:43. | :27:45. | |
measures since the summer budget and have met with the Chancellor and | :27:46. | :27:48. | |
ministers to raise my points with them. They have listened carefully | :27:49. | :27:51. | |
to what I have had to say and I know ministers are alive to the concerns | :27:52. | :27:55. | |
of members who want to ensure that the most honourable and lowest paid | :27:56. | :27:58. | |
are protected. That is why I welcome the news that the Chancellor will be | :27:59. | :28:03. | |
taking steps to ease the transition of some other changes on the poorest | :28:04. | :28:06. | |
workers on lowest incomes and I look forward to more detail on these | :28:07. | :28:09. | |
extra measures in the Autumn Statement. In general I would urge | :28:10. | :28:12. | |
Treasury ministers to carefully assess what can be done to introduce | :28:13. | :28:17. | |
traditional transitional measures, giving families more time to adjust | :28:18. | :28:21. | |
to the changes in tax credits and allow time for additional policies | :28:22. | :28:24. | |
that I have mentioned such as the free childcare and progressive rises | :28:25. | :28:28. | |
in the living wage over this Parliament to boost families and | :28:29. | :28:32. | |
their income. I care deeply about helping the lowest paid and making | :28:33. | :28:36. | |
sure that work always pays. I welcome the thrust of what the | :28:37. | :28:40. | |
government's Drive is, moving us to low welfare, low tax and high wage | :28:41. | :28:43. | |
economy but more consideration needs to begin into the bloke paid workers | :28:44. | :28:48. | |
who are trying to do the work -- low-paid workers who tried to do the | :28:49. | :28:49. | |
real thing. I add my congratulations to miry of | :28:50. | :28:58. | |
for Birkenhead, for securing this debate in a week of high drama on | :28:59. | :29:04. | |
this subject. I must say I am very encouraged by stuff I have heard | :29:05. | :29:08. | |
from the other side. I hope those honourable members convey a that to | :29:09. | :29:12. | |
their leadership. Yesterday's headlines did make confusing | :29:13. | :29:17. | |
reading, the Guardian went for Osbourne ready to change tack on tax | :29:18. | :29:26. | |
credit. While the Express plumped for defiant Osbourne says taics will | :29:27. | :29:33. | |
not be cut. Before the election the for defiant Osbourne says taics will | :29:34. | :29:36. | |
not be cut. Before the election the Conservative manifesto prop promised | :29:37. | :29:38. | |
to "Work to eliminate child poverty, and two months later, they scrapped | :29:39. | :29:43. | |
existing targets, and poverty measures, so this, to me, looks not | :29:44. | :29:47. | |
even moving the goalposts but ripping up the pitch. We have had | :29:48. | :29:51. | |
the Prime Minister's claim that we must eliminate the scourge of | :29:52. | :29:56. | |
poverty, which is difficult to reconcile with cutses set to put | :29:57. | :30:03. | |
more than 200,000 working households into poverty being affected for an | :30:04. | :30:09. | |
inheritance tax, give a tax doubt the 60,000 wealthiest estates. That | :30:10. | :30:13. | |
is as they stood. We don't know what the next instalment would be. But I | :30:14. | :30:17. | |
mean, do think this is why we don't hear, we are all in this together so | :30:18. | :30:21. | |
much any more. I hope it was... Yes I I will of | :30:22. | :30:25. | |
course. I was a bit confused as well but the | :30:26. | :30:30. | |
only thing that is clear to me, that in Leith we have over 6,000 families | :30:31. | :30:36. | |
on tax credits, over 5,000 families with children. And these measures | :30:37. | :30:41. | |
will drive them into poverty, and that is very clear to me. I than of | :30:42. | :30:49. | |
my for that. We have a similar number in Ealing and Acton. It is | :30:50. | :30:51. | |
those children we should be thinking about. They are not just columns on | :30:52. | :30:56. | |
the spread sheeted. These are real lives. -- sheet. I hope it was the | :30:57. | :31:02. | |
drama of PMQs but six times the Prime Minister was asked by our | :31:03. | :31:05. | |
leader, about these plan, and whether working people would be | :31:06. | :31:09. | |
worse off next year. Six times he refused to answer. Even the Sun has | :31:10. | :31:15. | |
said this morning not the most Labour friendly paper six words by | :31:16. | :31:20. | |
Cam. In the words of the honourable member for Islington North, this is | :31:21. | :31:24. | |
not a constitutional crisis this is a crisis for three million working | :31:25. | :31:30. | |
families. But Madame Deputy Speaker we could go further than this | :31:31. | :31:36. | |
motion. The Chancellor could still perform a full U-turn. I would | :31:37. | :31:42. | |
welcome back this -- welcome this. If he were to do this, as my fellow | :31:43. | :31:51. | |
west London honourable friend I believe he is, for Hayes and Harling | :31:52. | :31:55. | |
on the said, we would welcome that on this side, so you know, we | :31:56. | :31:59. | |
wouldn't taunt him for that, if they want to do that. There is still | :32:00. | :32:09. | |
time. So, he has a choice, the honourable, the right honourable | :32:10. | :32:13. | |
member Coult continue on his tax give aways to the wealthiest in the | :32:14. | :32:17. | |
country or he could reverse the tax breaks to the fewgo for a lower is | :32:18. | :32:24. | |
plus target in 2019/20. While still ticking to his imposed charrer, his | :32:25. | :32:29. | |
self emposed charter. He could still be in a position not to hit the | :32:30. | :32:32. | |
three million working families with the cut, after all this is a | :32:33. | :32:35. | |
government that claims to be on the side of working people, so the ball | :32:36. | :32:39. | |
is in the court of the Treasury ministers opposite. | :32:40. | :32:49. | |
Miry of for Selly Oak mentioned that often the lifting of those out of | :32:50. | :32:53. | |
taxation is taken as a justification for these measures but this is not | :32:54. | :32:57. | |
as progressive as it might initially appear. It helps dual owner | :32:58. | :33:03. | |
households the most and only those who earn enough to begin with. It | :33:04. | :33:08. | |
makes no difference if you start taxing at 6,000, 11 thousand horse, | :33:09. | :33:13. | |
it can kick in at any level. If you are on 5,000. It won't help you, | :33:14. | :33:18. | |
that is the lowest paid on the distributional curve. All studies | :33:19. | :33:23. | |
show, people have said the national living wage, which is not an actual | :33:24. | :33:29. | |
living wage, will only affect a small minority and those under 26 | :33:30. | :33:37. | |
never. Miry of for Don Valley pointed out that the childcare | :33:38. | :33:40. | |
element is limited. In my constituency you would be | :33:41. | :33:43. | |
hard-pressed to find a nursery that can offer that at all, there isn't | :33:44. | :33:48. | |
the commensurate resource to match that. And people, people even before | :33:49. | :33:54. | |
the mess of earlier ethis week, people will be wondering how they | :33:55. | :33:58. | |
can trust the Prime Minister who blatantly said one thing on TV as | :33:59. | :34:03. | |
recently as 30th April and just a couple of months later, in July, he | :34:04. | :34:12. | |
promised that voter who phoned in, I think David Dimbleby did a | :34:13. | :34:15. | |
supplementary to check it was clear. That is the fastest U-turn in | :34:16. | :34:22. | |
history. It is, again, in PMQs yesterday it was claimed that MPs | :34:23. | :34:27. | |
were claiming them. I hope that was the theatre of PMQ that made that | :34:28. | :34:31. | |
happen. I have given way once so I would rather not. | :34:32. | :34:36. | |
Reduced tax credits are being introduced alongside a gamut of | :34:37. | :34:39. | |
other welfare change, the effect of which is an assault on the lowest | :34:40. | :34:44. | |
paid in our country, so the, it is relevant to the moerks because it | :34:45. | :34:49. | |
needs to be taken in context, I am sure the gentleman... Order, order. | :34:50. | :34:56. | |
If the country, so the, it is relevant to the moerks because it | :34:57. | :34:58. | |
needs to be taken in context, I am sure the gentleman... Order, order. | :34:59. | :35:01. | |
If the lady was not - please sit down. If she was not speaking to the | :35:02. | :35:04. | |
motion I would stop her, Thank you. It needs to be taken in the whole, | :35:05. | :35:07. | |
in context with the four year benefit freeze reduction in | :35:08. | :35:10. | |
household benefit cap. New claimants no longer are able to claim the | :35:11. | :35:17. | |
family element and controversially the the proposal that after April | :35:18. | :35:20. | |
2017 the third child of any family on wards would not be able to claim. | :35:21. | :35:25. | |
I can't imagine that in any other policy Ayr area. Can you imagine | :35:26. | :35:28. | |
saying the third child can't go to school. If it has my sister would | :35:29. | :35:33. | |
never have been educated. A number of millionaire Tory Lord's voted on | :35:34. | :35:37. | |
Monday to cut help for Britain's poorest workers so at the other end | :35:38. | :35:42. | |
of the scale you have people like Lord Andrew Lloyd Webber, who was | :35:43. | :35:46. | |
flown in from New York, I think, for this. So it seems, it did seem to | :35:47. | :35:51. | |
some extent that the party opposite were throwing the kitchen sink at | :35:52. | :35:55. | |
this. I do think there is growing awareness of the consequences of | :35:56. | :35:58. | |
this. I mean etched into the consciousness of the front pen | :35:59. | :36:03. | |
opposite, -- bench opposite should be that caller who rang in or the | :36:04. | :36:07. | |
lady in tears on Question Time the other night after the election. | :36:08. | :36:13. | |
So I do think that, and we have all through old and new, we have | :36:14. | :36:17. | |
received hundreds of e-mails on this, we await the next instalment. | :36:18. | :36:23. | |
The Autumn Statement. Hopefully kids have been saved the, the | :36:24. | :36:26. | |
unseasonable tidings of this, the notices that would have been | :36:27. | :36:31. | |
plopping on doormats at Christmas. The Government should publish a full | :36:32. | :36:35. | |
impact assessment o their cumulative cuts to tax credits and benefits in | :36:36. | :36:39. | |
the so-called emergency budget. I mean the PM said at his own | :36:40. | :36:43. | |
conference it is not pounds and pence but people that fire him up. | :36:44. | :36:48. | |
Those children in Ealing and Acton are real people. They real lives, | :36:49. | :36:53. | |
not columns on the spread sheet. 70% of the money saved by this are going | :36:54. | :36:58. | |
to be from working mums so I urge the Government to reconsider its | :36:59. | :37:01. | |
proposals and protect those on the lowest incomes. | :37:02. | :37:08. | |
Thank you Madame Deputy Speaker, may I pay tribute to the right | :37:09. | :37:11. | |
honourable member for Birkenhead for securing this debate. I will support | :37:12. | :37:16. | |
the motion, I will be making a short contribution. I come to support the | :37:17. | :37:22. | |
debate from my perspective having live and worked abroad and my | :37:23. | :37:26. | |
perspective more locally. I have lived and worked in communities | :37:27. | :37:31. | |
where there is no welfare system whatsoever, I have also lived and | :37:32. | :37:36. | |
worked in a community where almost ever everybody has been on some form | :37:37. | :37:41. | |
of welfare or credit assistance. Neither of those two different | :37:42. | :37:46. | |
situations are situations I would wish for my constituents. That is | :37:47. | :37:53. | |
why I am fully supportive of the Chancellor's vision of high wage low | :37:54. | :37:58. | |
tax, low welfare society. I know in the places where I have worked, that | :37:59. | :38:02. | |
they would wish for this if they could achieve it in their | :38:03. | :38:08. | |
communities. But I am also supportive of the noble Lord, Lord | :38:09. | :38:12. | |
Lawson in the other place, and of what he has said, is that the | :38:13. | :38:16. | |
welfare and the tax credits have ballooned. But I also agree with | :38:17. | :38:26. | |
Lord Lawson, and the right honourable member for Howden, where | :38:27. | :38:31. | |
by we must protect those at the lowest end of the income scale. That | :38:32. | :38:38. | |
is where my experience of being NHS doctor and therapeutic councillor in | :38:39. | :38:42. | |
this country and locally where I live, I have come across some people | :38:43. | :38:46. | |
going through some of the most challenging times of their lives. | :38:47. | :38:52. | |
But these people contrary to what the right honourable member of | :38:53. | :38:55. | |
Birkenhead said do not have weak shoulder, they shoulders are | :38:56. | :38:59. | |
stronger than mine, or anybody's here. These people that I have met | :39:00. | :39:05. | |
single parents, who have escaped domestic violence, bringing up their | :39:06. | :39:09. | |
children, difficult circumstances, and going out to work for some hours | :39:10. | :39:14. | |
during the week, and they are going out to work because they want to, | :39:15. | :39:19. | |
because they want to be a role model for their children. They are doing | :39:20. | :39:24. | |
their best for their families, and we must do our best for them, | :39:25. | :39:31. | |
because ultimately, they become role models for us, -- our society. I | :39:32. | :39:35. | |
support the Chancellor in looking for mitigation measures, and I am | :39:36. | :39:38. | |
very happy to support this motion today. | :39:39. | :39:44. | |
Thank you. Thank you Madame Deputy Speaker. | :39:45. | :39:49. | |
The last few weeks have been an absolute roller-coaster. We have | :39:50. | :39:54. | |
heard passionate speeches from all sides, urging the Government to find | :39:55. | :40:00. | |
another way forward. Time and time again, the moral argument has been | :40:01. | :40:06. | |
put forward. But time and time again, political games have been | :40:07. | :40:11. | |
played and votes lost. But, Mr Speaker, it is not about | :40:12. | :40:16. | |
scoring points in this place, or that. This is about real people. | :40:17. | :40:21. | |
Sorry Madame Deputy Speaker. It is about real people. It is about how | :40:22. | :40:26. | |
we look after and care for those who are most in need. It is about | :40:27. | :40:32. | |
fairness, about morals, it is about billing the kind of society we want | :40:33. | :40:38. | |
to see. -- building. In PMQs yesterday the Prime Minister was | :40:39. | :40:42. | |
asked six times to confirm that no-one would be worse off with Ness | :40:43. | :40:48. | |
changes, but declined to do so. Earlier this week, I asked the | :40:49. | :40:53. | |
Chancellor directly what he would be putting in place to ensure that the | :40:54. | :40:59. | |
9,000 families in Lewisham Deptford, of which 5 thousand -- 5500 of these | :41:00. | :41:04. | |
families are working families, how he and his Government would ensure | :41:05. | :41:12. | |
they are not out-of-pocket by ?1300. At a time when rents are rising, | :41:13. | :41:17. | |
when people are having to turn to food banks because they are | :41:18. | :41:22. | |
struggling to pay their bills, and feed their families, people will | :41:23. | :41:27. | |
turn to credit. People will fall into arrears with their rent. People | :41:28. | :41:33. | |
will be made homeless. And what does the Chancellor have to say about | :41:34. | :41:39. | |
that? That he is listening. Well, that is astart. That he will change | :41:40. | :41:48. | |
his plans. No such luck as yet. No Madame Deputy Speaker e he says he | :41:49. | :41:53. | |
will introduce a national living wage, a national living wage, what a | :41:54. | :41:59. | |
cheek. The Living Wage Foundation do a fantastic job of campaigning for a | :42:00. | :42:04. | |
real living wage. This is no living wage. This is quite simply spin. The | :42:05. | :42:11. | |
Chancellor is grossly mistaken if he thinks that people will be fooled. | :42:12. | :42:17. | |
He has stolen the brand of the a fantastic organisation, and in an | :42:18. | :42:21. | |
instant contaminated and muddied the waters. | :42:22. | :42:27. | |
When tax credits for introduced by a Labour government, they were | :42:28. | :42:32. | |
introduced because there was a real need for them. This government's | :42:33. | :42:36. | |
failure to build a better economy means that this need is still there. | :42:37. | :42:43. | |
On that point, does she agree with me, we have had a great deal from | :42:44. | :42:47. | |
the party opposite about the rise in tax credits over the last decade, | :42:48. | :42:52. | |
the Institute of Fiscal Studies stated very clearly that child | :42:53. | :42:55. | |
poverty would have stayed the same or risen rather than fall | :42:56. | :42:58. | |
substantially without these increases in tax credits? There is | :42:59. | :43:03. | |
evidence to suggest these reforms prevented large rise in inequality. | :43:04. | :43:07. | |
That is what tax credit achieved and that is why the amateur is | :43:08. | :43:14. | |
worthwhile. I thank her for -- why the expenditure is worthwhile. I | :43:15. | :43:20. | |
thank her for her intervention. I am trying to remember where I was! | :43:21. | :43:26. | |
Personally, I think it is wrong that government subsidises large | :43:27. | :43:29. | |
employers. Large employers can and should pay their staff more. That is | :43:30. | :43:34. | |
a solution that we should all be working on together. Not tit-for-tat | :43:35. | :43:39. | |
political point scoring. And one of the best ways for staff to organise | :43:40. | :43:43. | |
and put pressure on their employers is through their trade unions. If | :43:44. | :43:51. | |
the government had any sense of moral code, it would be working with | :43:52. | :43:59. | |
the trade unions to raise wages. And in the long-term, eliminate tax | :44:00. | :44:02. | |
credits altogether. That must be the goal. But this government is doing | :44:03. | :44:10. | |
anything but that. It is attempting to hamper the great work trade | :44:11. | :44:15. | |
unions do by introducing the negative trade union reform Bill. | :44:16. | :44:24. | |
You do recognise that the national living way which she has appointed | :44:25. | :44:27. | |
is a way of addressing exactly the concern she has just raised? It has | :44:28. | :44:32. | |
been a very effective way of raising the wages of those in employment. | :44:33. | :44:38. | |
The national living wage that you are what talking about is not a | :44:39. | :44:41. | |
national living wage that will drive our people's living standards. In | :44:42. | :44:47. | |
terms of the cuts and in terms of people's wages at the time, people | :44:48. | :44:51. | |
will be worse off because of these changes and that is the reason why | :44:52. | :44:56. | |
this debate has come forward today. Madam Deputy Speaker, this | :44:57. | :45:00. | |
government is a joke. The left-hander not know what the right | :45:01. | :45:01. | |
hand is doing. The ploy left-hander not know what the right | :45:02. | :45:07. | |
hand is doing. The policies are not adding up. Whilst they are laughing | :45:08. | :45:12. | |
at people's stories of people being in the housing trouble, we are | :45:13. | :45:17. | |
working to improve the lives of millions. I want to urge the | :45:18. | :45:23. | |
government to halt the cuts to cut credits -- tax credit until we can | :45:24. | :45:26. | |
guarantee that no family will be worse off. Thank you, Madam T | :45:27. | :45:34. | |
speaker. I would like to thank the Right Honourable member of the | :45:35. | :45:38. | |
Birkenhead for bringing forward this debate, this is the first | :45:39. | :45:41. | |
opportunity I have had to contribute to the tax credits the bait. The | :45:42. | :45:46. | |
primary aim of this government is to pay down the left, reduce our big | :45:47. | :45:50. | |
spending and unshackle the ?3000 that hangs around every child's neck | :45:51. | :45:59. | |
who is born within the UK. The Prime Minister in my constituency has | :46:00. | :46:02. | |
literally lifted thousands of people out of the income tax threshold | :46:03. | :46:06. | |
altogether, given 30 hours of free childcare and introduced the new | :46:07. | :46:09. | |
living wage and I am proud to associate myself with these | :46:10. | :46:12. | |
measures. When tax credits were first introduced by the party | :46:13. | :46:16. | |
opposite, they cost ?4 billion per year. I believe this year they cost | :46:17. | :46:20. | |
?30 billion so they clearly need some form of reform. I will give | :46:21. | :46:26. | |
way. With the honourable member agree with me that understanding | :46:27. | :46:34. | |
that working tax credits and tax credits are other means tested | :46:35. | :46:37. | |
welfare benefit? Therefore if the welfare bill has gone up, it is | :46:38. | :46:42. | |
because family's incomes have not risen significantly and that is the | :46:43. | :46:45. | |
real reason that the bill has increased. We need to get income to | :46:46. | :46:50. | |
go higher. I do accept the Right Honourable member's point, the | :46:51. | :46:54. | |
honourable member's point. I would say that we are looking to try and | :46:55. | :46:58. | |
increase the living way to to make sure people are better off in work | :46:59. | :47:08. | |
than out of work. I am grateful. Surely the government is attacking | :47:09. | :47:11. | |
this the wrong way round. They should be getting income up first | :47:12. | :47:15. | |
before they cut people's wages. They are at the moment cutting peoples | :47:16. | :47:20. | |
earnings and in four years' time, maybe, having a higher wage, | :47:21. | :47:23. | |
something they are calling and national living wage which is not | :47:24. | :47:27. | |
actually a living wage. Thank you for his contribution, I will get | :47:28. | :47:33. | |
onto that as I go later. The debates that have been presented by the | :47:34. | :47:37. | |
opposition, the debates that have been presented by the opposition | :47:38. | :47:43. | |
over recent days has maintained the status quo. They believe this ?30 | :47:44. | :47:48. | |
billion tax credit Bill is one we should not change at all and I do | :47:49. | :47:52. | |
not act at that. They have offered no edible plan to take this burden | :47:53. | :47:58. | |
from our children. -- no credible plan. I am elected under a manifesto | :47:59. | :48:02. | |
to reduce the welfare bill and I am hoping we will do that. On this side | :48:03. | :48:06. | |
of the House, we know we have to take difficult decisions ahead in | :48:07. | :48:10. | |
terms of spending reductions. It is all very well for the Leader of the | :48:11. | :48:13. | |
Opposition to ask six questions on tax credits yesterday, but you | :48:14. | :48:17. | |
cannot change a policy that affects 3 million families on a whim. And I | :48:18. | :48:25. | |
welcome the Chancellor's statement that he will look at this in the | :48:26. | :48:30. | |
Autumn Statement. Is he saying therefore that the reason the Prime | :48:31. | :48:34. | |
Minister could not answer is because the government is not committed to | :48:35. | :48:37. | |
protecting families from this problem? Absolutely not. I think we | :48:38. | :48:44. | |
are seriously looking at this proposal and we will make some | :48:45. | :48:47. | |
announcement in the Autumn Statement. North Cornwall, where I | :48:48. | :48:51. | |
represent, is a very modest wage economy. We benefited from the | :48:52. | :48:55. | |
economic improvements at the country has seen, we have seen a rise in | :48:56. | :48:59. | |
school provision and a lot of people in my constituency have been helped | :49:00. | :49:02. | |
with the help to buy scheme. They are trying to improve their lot in | :49:03. | :49:06. | |
life and they are trying to do the right thing. As my right honourable | :49:07. | :49:10. | |
friend from Tiverton said so eloquently earlier, we must ensure | :49:11. | :49:13. | |
on this side of the House that we make it better for people to be in | :49:14. | :49:17. | |
the works and out of work but we must support those who do work. I do | :49:18. | :49:25. | |
not want to put him off, but coming back to a point made by the | :49:26. | :49:28. | |
honourable gentleman opposite, we had a very cross-party nonpartisan | :49:29. | :49:33. | |
discussion during the course of this debate and I thought I heard the | :49:34. | :49:38. | |
honourable gentleman saying the party opposite is keen to see | :49:39. | :49:48. | |
changes in the tax credits. Would he look forward to the remarks from the | :49:49. | :49:51. | |
front bench opposite on how they would cut this Bill? I would welcome | :49:52. | :49:54. | |
that because we have heard nothing from the opposition to hear how they | :49:55. | :49:57. | |
would deal with this ?30 billion deficit. I thank him for giving way. | :49:58. | :50:06. | |
The Labour Party has voted against every single welfare change made | :50:07. | :50:12. | |
over the last five years. That is absolutely correct, I agree with my | :50:13. | :50:15. | |
honourable friend. It is ultimately our response ability to look at all | :50:16. | :50:18. | |
of the financial provision we provide us government and ensure | :50:19. | :50:21. | |
that money is distributed to people who are trying to do the right | :50:22. | :50:26. | |
thing. I will give way more time. Can we be clear here? The honourable | :50:27. | :50:31. | |
gentleman attacks Labour for having a policy we do not have, that is | :50:32. | :50:34. | |
unacceptable. Our policy is not to continue with 30 million pounds of | :50:35. | :50:39. | |
tax credits for evermore. As my honourable friend said in a speech | :50:40. | :50:43. | |
before his speech, we want to change it, it is a question of phasing, as | :50:44. | :50:49. | |
to whether you cut incomes from tax credits before wages go up. That is | :50:50. | :50:53. | |
the government's policy and that is what we oppose. Forgive me, my right | :50:54. | :50:58. | |
honourable friend, I believe that the two opposition day debates were | :50:59. | :51:03. | |
acted to abolish this proposal completely. This government knows it | :51:04. | :51:09. | |
needs to make tough decisions but it also needs to make them with | :51:10. | :51:13. | |
fairness and with compassion. Measures, the measures that we are | :51:14. | :51:18. | |
putting in place to manage that transition to be welcomed. And it is | :51:19. | :51:22. | |
true I think that the national wage, the freeze ghoul childcare | :51:23. | :51:26. | |
arrangement and the social rent reductions that have been in | :51:27. | :51:30. | |
fermented for people who live in social rented homes will be helped | :51:31. | :51:35. | |
with some people managing that transition. However I do believe it | :51:36. | :51:39. | |
is evident that some people will fall between the cracks. People with | :51:40. | :51:44. | |
older children who do not necessarily have childcare provision | :51:45. | :51:46. | |
that they can allocate, children between eight and 14, for example. | :51:47. | :51:53. | |
Single parents, who earn more than the living wage currently. I think | :51:54. | :51:58. | |
they will be affected. And those in private accommodation who do not | :51:59. | :52:01. | |
benefit from the rental reductions. There are many economists in this | :52:02. | :52:06. | |
house who are better than I, it is not something I profess to be | :52:07. | :52:09. | |
particularly good at but I would like to offer some financial | :52:10. | :52:13. | |
solutions. How about we go after VW at the present moment who seem to | :52:14. | :52:22. | |
owe a huge amount of money to our government for the vehicle excise | :52:23. | :52:28. | |
duty they have not paid? How about abolishing national insurance for | :52:29. | :52:31. | |
anyone under the income threshold? We could have tax breaks for | :52:32. | :52:35. | |
grandparent or a transferable allowance that 30 hours of free | :52:36. | :52:40. | |
childcare. A lot of working families utilise grandparents to provide for | :52:41. | :52:44. | |
care, I do not see any reason why we could not change the childcare | :52:45. | :52:46. | |
arrangements so that we could interoperate over that. -- | :52:47. | :52:52. | |
incorporate some of that. We could consolidate new claimants. I welcome | :52:53. | :52:58. | |
the opportunity to get on the record in this debate and this moment of | :52:59. | :53:01. | |
poor that has been presented to us by the other place. I am here to | :53:02. | :53:06. | |
stand up for the thousands of working people in North Cornwall and | :53:07. | :53:10. | |
I urge the chance to assist them in their help to work and to end. -- to | :53:11. | :53:22. | |
Turner. -- to earn. When the right honourable gentleman first oppose | :53:23. | :53:25. | |
this debate, he wrote to me and a number of humbug -- other members | :53:26. | :53:31. | |
and I agreed, this was before the storm broke. We have moved on as he | :53:32. | :53:42. | |
acknowledged. I have worked with tax credits, and family credit and | :53:43. | :53:46. | |
family income supplement. The inherent problem with the system was | :53:47. | :53:52. | |
apparent from the start, being a low wage subsidy, to a low extent than | :53:53. | :54:00. | |
they are now. The cost of the taxpayer was very apparent. These | :54:01. | :54:07. | |
problems have gone away. As I said in an earlier debate, I have no | :54:08. | :54:14. | |
problem impossible with removing tax credits as law -- long as we have | :54:15. | :54:24. | |
fair wages for all. We need proper childcare provision available | :54:25. | :54:28. | |
universally, and for my case, particularly in the pride and rural | :54:29. | :54:31. | |
areas where the current provision is very poor and very patchy. I think | :54:32. | :54:36. | |
it is also very important for rural areas in Wales, support for small | :54:37. | :54:41. | |
businesses to enable them to earn and also pay a living wage. Those | :54:42. | :54:46. | |
are the sorts of changes I would like to see and I would gladly agree | :54:47. | :54:53. | |
to the Chancellor's proposals. I have not much of a problem with the | :54:54. | :55:04. | |
fact that tax credit should go down as people earn more. The | :55:05. | :55:08. | |
disincentive effects remain when high rate of combined tax credits | :55:09. | :55:19. | |
and benefits reduce people's incomes. What incentive will there | :55:20. | :55:23. | |
be for owning that extra marginal pound if that melts away with | :55:24. | :55:29. | |
reduced tax credit and benefits as we heard earlier. I think it was 93p | :55:30. | :55:34. | |
in the pound mentioned by another honourable member. I would point out | :55:35. | :55:40. | |
that as the minimum wage or the national living wage rises, then the | :55:41. | :55:51. | |
tax credits will reduce and the cost to the taxpayer goes down. But what | :55:52. | :55:55. | |
the Chancellor intends goes well beyond what is normal and what is | :55:56. | :56:01. | |
accessed four. Had he been happy to just operate the papers as they are | :56:02. | :56:07. | |
now as a starting point, the threshold as they are, he would have | :56:08. | :56:12. | |
gained tax revenue, had he been satisfied with that course of | :56:13. | :56:17. | |
action, people earning more would claim less tax credits. | :56:18. | :56:23. | |
Significantly, people be claiming less housing benefit which is a | :56:24. | :56:28. | |
problem which is well-known to both sides of this house. He has gone | :56:29. | :56:31. | |
further and done so deliberately. Tax credits will be withdrawn | :56:32. | :56:39. | |
earlier and this is on top of the freeze on tax credit levels for four | :56:40. | :56:42. | |
years and the limiting of the childcare elements for the first two | :56:43. | :56:47. | |
children. I would like to ask the Minister in respect of childcare | :56:48. | :56:52. | |
what discussions the government have had with the Welsh government, | :56:53. | :56:56. | |
because the provision in Wales does vary significantly in some places | :56:57. | :57:01. | |
from provision in England. But if we are tailoring system which is | :57:02. | :57:08. | |
promotes proper childcare, there has to be consultation with the Welsh | :57:09. | :57:10. | |
government and the Scottish Government and the Northern Ireland | :57:11. | :57:11. | |
executive. I am concerned on the effects on | :57:12. | :57:23. | |
people under 25. My concern is that this will reduce working incentives | :57:24. | :57:28. | |
and deeping Chile poverty. We have heard a figure of 200,000 children | :57:29. | :57:34. | |
being mentioned. There are I think geographical effects which I | :57:35. | :57:39. | |
mentioned earlier. There are communities in Wales where large | :57:40. | :57:43. | |
percentages of people take advantage of tax credits. The whole community | :57:44. | :57:49. | |
will then be hit as those tax credits are worsened. Particularly | :57:50. | :57:54. | |
for us in Wales, in west Wales in the valley, that region which has | :57:55. | :58:00. | |
been identified as being very poor, and therefore subject to various | :58:01. | :58:05. | |
European grants, on a par with parts of former Communist eastern Europe. | :58:06. | :58:09. | |
And in some of those communities, many people claim tax credits in | :58:10. | :58:15. | |
order to go out to low low paid work and I really am concerned that they | :58:16. | :58:22. | |
will be struck very hard. So, I would repeat my call. Adding to what | :58:23. | :58:25. | |
the right honourable gentleman said. That is when we have data, perhaps | :58:26. | :58:36. | |
they could address that particular geographical distribution of the | :58:37. | :58:40. | |
effects. To turn briefly to some of the points the right honourable | :58:41. | :58:46. | |
gentleman raised, as I said, that is one point, childcare is another. | :58:47. | :58:50. | |
Discussions I hope there have been with the Welsh Government. And I | :58:51. | :58:56. | |
suppose it is almost a, almost a philosophical point we should | :58:57. | :58:59. | |
recognise as a society the value that bringing up children has for | :59:00. | :59:03. | |
us, as a society, and in terms of care for the elderly and in terms of | :59:04. | :59:08. | |
the next generation, perhaps my social add invitation slip is | :59:09. | :59:13. | |
showing here, as I say that, but I am a veteran of many campaigns, to | :59:14. | :59:17. | |
save and secure child benefit, and that is one of the sensible | :59:18. | :59:22. | |
arguments in favour of child benefit as far as I am concerned. To bring | :59:23. | :59:27. | |
my remarks to an end, postponing the introduction of beyond the next | :59:28. | :59:32. | |
April is clearly a very good point. Restricting it to new claimants | :59:33. | :59:37. | |
again, something that I would agree with, though that would put them in | :59:38. | :59:41. | |
that difficult position of going out to work for reduced tax credits, and | :59:42. | :59:46. | |
I have already mentioned the disincentives to taking work that | :59:47. | :59:50. | |
that might provide, so we have to be very careful with that one. Just | :59:51. | :59:55. | |
lastly, on the pension tax relief, that has been mentioned, again, I am | :59:56. | :00:00. | |
afraid I am a veteran of previous debates on tax credit, and it was | :00:01. | :00:05. | |
one of the suggestions that my party made, when Adair Turner was | :00:06. | :00:08. | |
reviewing pensions, the circumstances are different now, it | :00:09. | :00:12. | |
was some years ago, but certainly we could have seen that happen then, | :00:13. | :00:15. | |
and the Government's might not have been in the position they are in | :00:16. | :00:17. | |
now. Thank you. | :00:18. | :00:27. | |
It is a pleasure to follow a thoughtful contribution by the right | :00:28. | :00:32. | |
honourable member. Can I add my claitions to the right honourable | :00:33. | :00:35. | |
gentleman from Birkenhead on securing this debate. And the wisdom | :00:36. | :00:42. | |
of the become business committee in granting such a debate. Of which | :00:43. | :00:46. | |
pleasure I had of chairing the meeting. It is the first opportunity | :00:47. | :00:50. | |
I have had to contribute to the vexed issue over tax credit, I do | :00:51. | :00:54. | |
think it's a great shame the right honourable gentleman for Birkenhead | :00:55. | :00:57. | |
was not able to convince his own party when in Government, of the | :00:58. | :01:01. | |
wisdom of transforming the welfare system in this country, but we are | :01:02. | :01:06. | |
where we are. My big criticism of the last Labour Government is that | :01:07. | :01:11. | |
instead of reforming the welfare system, every time that there came a | :01:12. | :01:16. | |
problem, a new benefit was set up, and it became unwieldy, and | :01:17. | :01:19. | |
unworkable. And when I was elected in 2010, I had a series of people | :01:20. | :01:26. | |
coming to see me, about the hugely complicated financial arrangements | :01:27. | :01:30. | |
they faced, both on working tax credits, and, and child based tax | :01:31. | :01:35. | |
credits. I give way. He said when the previous | :01:36. | :01:40. | |
Government, when they had a problem, the answer was to increase the tax | :01:41. | :01:44. | |
credit. Credit. The real problem is low wage, what this Government is | :01:45. | :01:48. | |
trying to do to enable the workers to strive for a hiring wage, isn't | :01:49. | :01:54. | |
going to help the situation at all. I thank him for his intervention, I | :01:55. | :01:58. | |
that is not what I said. The welfare system, so we had a series of | :01:59. | :02:01. | |
different welfare benefit, what ever the problem was, set up a new | :02:02. | :02:05. | |
benefit, whether it's a tax credit, or another arrangement. That is the | :02:06. | :02:11. | |
reality of the situation. Instead of dealing with the issue during a | :02:12. | :02:16. | |
period of high relatively high unemployment, which the last Labour | :02:17. | :02:20. | |
Government had, they didn't deal with the fundamental issues which as | :02:21. | :02:22. | |
the honourable gentleman rightly pointed out, were that of low wages. | :02:23. | :02:29. | |
Now, the reality is that when we set up this debate, billed at the last | :02:30. | :02:33. | |
chance to review what the Government was proposing before it became fact. | :02:34. | :02:37. | |
Events in the other place mean we are in a position where we can | :02:38. | :02:41. | |
suggest alternatives and proposals forward. Therefore contributions | :02:42. | :02:45. | |
this afternoon are helpful, I think to the Chancellor in deciding what | :02:46. | :02:50. | |
he is going to do and what he comes forward with in the Autumn | :02:51. | :02:53. | |
Statement. Clearly we have to strike balances here. The Conservative | :02:54. | :02:57. | |
Party manifesto laid out that we were going to save ?12 billion in | :02:58. | :03:02. | |
welfare. Now, the challenge for anyone is, to come forward with | :03:03. | :03:07. | |
alternative proposals as to how well fair savings. Welfare savings of ?12 | :03:08. | :03:12. | |
billion will be found. Clearly, this is some four billion pounds of | :03:13. | :03:17. | |
savings, that are envisaged. -- envy sad sanged. With where I start from | :03:18. | :03:21. | |
is sympathy from the people affected. What happened when yo you | :03:22. | :03:27. | |
reduce people's benefits, they will always complain. When you increase | :03:28. | :03:32. | |
the tax threshold so they pay less tax, they will be happy. They won't | :03:33. | :03:38. | |
complain. When their wages are increased they also won't complain | :03:39. | :03:41. | |
but few you take benefits away they will squeal. What we have to look | :03:42. | :03:47. | |
at, in the round, is clearly the effect on individual people. Now | :03:48. | :03:53. | |
where people are working full-time, and have no alternative but to have | :03:54. | :03:57. | |
tax credits to top up their salaries, their wage, that is where | :03:58. | :04:01. | |
we must have the utmost sympathy. Because those people have no | :04:02. | :04:04. | |
recourse there is no alternative. What do they do? They suffer a lost | :04:05. | :04:09. | |
loss of income which must by definition impact their family, so | :04:10. | :04:12. | |
what I would like to see the Chancellor do as the first thing, is | :04:13. | :04:17. | |
to examine the measures so that the people that are in full-time work do | :04:18. | :04:22. | |
not suffer any impact whatsoever, because I think it is grossly unfair | :04:23. | :04:26. | |
on those individuals. Equally we face the challenge both in the | :04:27. | :04:30. | |
public sector and the private sector, what has happened over due | :04:31. | :04:36. | |
time as the Government have rightly reduced business taxation, to | :04:37. | :04:39. | |
encourage businesses to grow their businesses, and to locate within the | :04:40. | :04:44. | |
United Kingdom. That has to be good news because it is crating -- | :04:45. | :04:48. | |
creating job, they have also kept wages artificially low and that has | :04:49. | :04:52. | |
to change. So I greatly support the principle of a living wage, but | :04:53. | :04:56. | |
clearly, that living wage, as it is set at the moment, is far too low, | :04:57. | :05:03. | |
and we need to see that increase, dramatically, so that work pays | :05:04. | :05:09. | |
instead of supplying through the, through the taxpayer having to | :05:10. | :05:11. | |
subsidise work in private industry. That cannot be right. That principle | :05:12. | :05:16. | |
has to change, so I hope that the Government will look at this | :05:17. | :05:19. | |
particular aspect, in particular, so that we can encourage businesses, to | :05:20. | :05:24. | |
pay their staff more for the work they do. | :05:25. | :05:28. | |
That has to be the right way, that we demonstrate that work should | :05:29. | :05:33. | |
always pay. We also then have the criticism constant criticism from | :05:34. | :05:37. | |
the party opposite, that there have been large numbers of part-time jobs | :05:38. | :05:41. | |
created in this country. One of the reasons why that has happened, is | :05:42. | :05:45. | |
clearly that a large number of people know that if they take on a | :05:46. | :05:50. | |
part-time job for working 16 hours a week, they still have access to a | :05:51. | :05:54. | |
large range of benefits. That is a lifestyle choice. I am not going to | :05:55. | :05:59. | |
give away again because I have given way twice already. That is a | :06:00. | :06:03. | |
lifestyle choice people make, what we can see is that Government | :06:04. | :06:07. | |
proposals, restrictions on taxation and benefits do change people's | :06:08. | :06:11. | |
habits. So what we have to do, then, is to enable people, I am not giving | :06:12. | :06:17. | |
way a third time. What we need do is look at how people can change their | :06:18. | :06:22. | |
behaviours to make sure their income is improved and increased. The first | :06:23. | :06:26. | |
area, I think we have to look at, is childcare. Because working mothers, | :06:27. | :06:33. | |
and for, who have childcare responsibility need to have access | :06:34. | :06:36. | |
to proper and decent childcare. -- fathers. I applaud the Government on | :06:37. | :06:41. | |
the 30 hours free childcare, that is is not good enough for whole ranges | :06:42. | :06:45. | |
of families in this position, who can only therefore work part-time. | :06:46. | :06:53. | |
So can the Government please look at improving the amount of free | :06:54. | :06:58. | |
childcare given not to the limited range but extensively so more people | :06:59. | :07:02. | |
in this country can choose to take on more hours at work, and therefore | :07:03. | :07:07. | |
improve their incomes, at no cost to themselves. That would reduce the | :07:08. | :07:13. | |
tax credits bill and ensure that there was greater productivity in | :07:14. | :07:18. | |
our industry. So, those two measures would start to alleviate in problem. | :07:19. | :07:24. | |
But I do think that the Government now, in listening mode, needs to | :07:25. | :07:27. | |
consider where else we are going to save money from within the welfare | :07:28. | :07:31. | |
system, and the challenge also has to come to the opposition, that if | :07:32. | :07:37. | |
the opposition does not agree with reducing tax credits, where else | :07:38. | :07:41. | |
within the welfare system the money would come from. So the clear | :07:42. | :07:47. | |
challenge has to be there, and I look forward to in the summing up, | :07:48. | :07:52. | |
some answers to some of these issue there is a have been raised through | :07:53. | :07:58. | |
this debate. But the reality is, what I am concerned about, above all | :07:59. | :08:04. | |
else, is the great uncertainty there is among my constituents as to how | :08:05. | :08:08. | |
they will be affected next April where the changes to be introduced. | :08:09. | :08:16. | |
As the royal put forward. One of the problems is people are making | :08:17. | :08:20. | |
lifestyle choices. It is not fair on those families, who now are thinking | :08:21. | :08:25. | |
about what they do in terms of their work, where people are studying, | :08:26. | :08:30. | |
what actions they will take for their lifestyle, to be left in | :08:31. | :08:33. | |
limbo, so the quicker this is resolved. The better for everyone | :08:34. | :08:37. | |
concerned. Thank you. | :08:38. | :08:43. | |
And I would like to thank my right honourable friend the member for | :08:44. | :08:48. | |
Birkenhead for bringing this debate. A wiser Chancellor wouldn't have cut | :08:49. | :08:52. | |
tax credits to some of the poorest families in Britain in the first | :08:53. | :08:56. | |
place, but I do believe he has some wriggle room and he can put the mess | :08:57. | :09:01. | |
he has created for Britain's families right. The child poverty | :09:02. | :09:05. | |
action gripe believes that the proposed changes to tax credits will | :09:06. | :09:10. | |
damage work incentives and increase child poverty. I think we have the | :09:11. | :09:15. | |
message loud and clear, that the cuts will mean that work pays less. | :09:16. | :09:22. | |
The changes affect recipients of working tax credit. Who by | :09:23. | :09:29. | |
definition are in work. Analysis by the House of Commons library finds | :09:30. | :09:37. | |
thaw 3.2 million will lose an average of ?1350 next year. Although | :09:38. | :09:42. | |
doubt has been cast on this figure by the honourable member for more | :09:43. | :09:46. | |
come and Lunesdale I do find generally the House of Commons | :09:47. | :09:51. | |
library are fairly thorough and reliable. The same House of Commons | :09:52. | :09:58. | |
library analysis found over 750,000 families earning between 10,000, and | :09:59. | :10:07. | |
20,000 a year will lose up to ?2184 next year. Over 580,000 families, | :10:08. | :10:20. | |
Britain's poorest working families, earning between 3850-6420 a year, | :10:21. | :10:25. | |
face being taxed for the first time they will lose 48 pence in tax | :10:26. | :10:32. | |
credits, for each pound they earn. Some low income families will keep | :10:33. | :10:36. | |
just three pence in every extra pound they earn following the | :10:37. | :10:41. | |
changing. Child poverty will increase, as 4. Changing. Child | :10:42. | :10:43. | |
poverty will increase, as 4.4 billion will be taken from low paid | :10:44. | :10:48. | |
families. These cuts are not compensated for | :10:49. | :10:55. | |
by other changes, such as the so-called national living wage, the | :10:56. | :10:59. | |
rising income tax threshold or the free childcare offer, and | :11:00. | :11:04. | |
importantly, this impacts of these cuts have not been thoroughly | :11:05. | :11:07. | |
assessed. Some working families will face an | :11:08. | :11:18. | |
effective 97% tax rate, losing 32 pence in income tax and nationalen | :11:19. | :11:25. | |
insurance payments and 48 pence in tax credit entitlement, leaving them | :11:26. | :11:29. | |
with just three pence in the pound. At his last party conference speech | :11:30. | :11:34. | |
before becoming Prime Minister, David Cameron argues against higher | :11:35. | :11:38. | |
effective tax rates on low income families, saying if you are a single | :11:39. | :11:43. | |
mother with two kids, earning ?150 a week, the withdrawal of benefits and | :11:44. | :11:48. | |
the additional taxes mean that for every pound you earn you keep four | :11:49. | :11:51. | |
pence. What kind of incentive is that? So what has changed? Two | :11:52. | :11:57. | |
thirds of poor children live in a family where somebody works, and it | :11:58. | :12:02. | |
is inevitable by taking 4.4 billion away from low income working | :12:03. | :12:05. | |
families more children will be forced into poverty. | :12:06. | :12:17. | |
Child poverty is rising, independent projections from the Institute of | :12:18. | :12:20. | |
fiscal studies show clearly that the falls of child poverty rates will be | :12:21. | :12:37. | |
reversed. The number of people receiving tax credits in my | :12:38. | :12:42. | |
constituency is 9700. In the neighbouring constituency, that | :12:43. | :12:48. | |
figure is 14,900. That is nearly 25,000 children affected across the | :12:49. | :12:56. | |
borough of Rochdale. My constituents, one of them, e-mailed | :12:57. | :12:59. | |
me saying, I am dreading going back to work. I am a single mother of | :13:00. | :13:03. | |
three children and I know I am going to get backs soon but I am scared | :13:04. | :13:07. | |
how we -- go back soon but I am scared how we will survive, I am | :13:08. | :13:12. | |
already struggling as it is. Another constituent, public sector worker, | :13:13. | :13:16. | |
wrote to me saying she provides essential public services and tax | :13:17. | :13:20. | |
credits are an important part of her household income. She said that | :13:21. | :13:25. | |
although she would gain from the ?80 increase in personal tax allowance, | :13:26. | :13:28. | |
overall, she would be much worse off. Especially, as she said, if you | :13:29. | :13:34. | |
take into account the fact that the government only wants me to get a 1% | :13:35. | :13:39. | |
pay increase over the next few years. These women and many more | :13:40. | :13:43. | |
like them speak for the reality of life for the working poor. Something | :13:44. | :13:49. | |
which some in this house are comfortable into related from. | :13:50. | :13:54. | |
Indeed, when I worked for the NHS, child tax credits help to me. They | :13:55. | :14:00. | |
helped me to remain in full-time employment because it helps me | :14:01. | :14:03. | |
afford a childminder for my school-age son. And of course we do | :14:04. | :14:09. | |
welcome the higher minimum wage, and the increase in free childcare | :14:10. | :14:13. | |
provision that as has been pointed out by many honourable members, that | :14:14. | :14:17. | |
only goes so far. We need to get work incentive right, which will be | :14:18. | :14:22. | |
critical in tackling in work poverty. And what we need to do | :14:23. | :14:28. | |
first of all is to push employers into paying the living wage. And | :14:29. | :14:34. | |
that is the real living way, not the government's national minimum wage, | :14:35. | :14:39. | |
which is lower and does not apply to workers under 25 years of age. We | :14:40. | :14:43. | |
need to tackle the causes of low pay, before we start cutting tax | :14:44. | :14:51. | |
credits. I agree with my honourable friend, the member for Darlington, | :14:52. | :14:55. | |
that the vote on Monday may have done the Chancellor favour. In | :14:56. | :15:01. | |
giving him a breathing space and a chance to put this situation right | :15:02. | :15:06. | |
by supporting working families instead of penalising them for doing | :15:07. | :15:10. | |
the right thing. And although the Chancellor may have only just | :15:11. | :15:14. | |
discovered that the House of Lords is unelected, I do hope that he will | :15:15. | :15:18. | |
take this opportunity to reverse these tax credit cuts. Thank you. | :15:19. | :15:25. | |
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I would like to congratulate the | :15:26. | :15:29. | |
honourable member for Birkenhead and also the backbench business | :15:30. | :15:31. | |
committee for granting us this very timely debate to reconsider the | :15:32. | :15:37. | |
impact on the lowest paid workers of the proposed changes to tax credits | :15:38. | :15:42. | |
and for the government to bring forward mitigation proposals for | :15:43. | :15:46. | |
this house. Early next year, it is the centenary of the birth of Harold | :15:47. | :15:51. | |
Wilson. And that Huddersfield glad coined the phrase that a week is a | :15:52. | :16:00. | |
long time in the ticks. -- in politics. A lot of ermine and a | :16:01. | :16:03. | |
flood of e-mails have flowed under the bridge since I signed this | :16:04. | :16:10. | |
motion last week. I want to make it clear from the start that I | :16:11. | :16:12. | |
absolutely support the Chancellor in getting in Britain to live within | :16:13. | :16:22. | |
its means. I often suggests people talking about austerity replace it | :16:23. | :16:24. | |
with the phrase living within their means, which brings a whole new | :16:25. | :16:29. | |
meaning to the campaign slogan, antique living within your means. | :16:30. | :16:33. | |
Since last week, many constituents have echoed my position. To follow | :16:34. | :16:39. | |
the style of the Leader of the Opposition, I would like to say that | :16:40. | :16:42. | |
Martin from the home valleys says, he agrees with the shift in tax | :16:43. | :16:48. | |
credits to increase to pay, but he does share my concern about the | :16:49. | :16:56. | |
transitional impact of the changes. Bob says, he understands the point I | :16:57. | :17:01. | |
am making about employers underpaying staff and agrees with me | :17:02. | :17:04. | |
on the need to reconsider the pace of change. Nicola says, she agrees | :17:05. | :17:13. | |
that the tax credit system is is not perfect, as is the whole benefit | :17:14. | :17:18. | |
system. Currently, she says, she would be better off financially | :17:19. | :17:21. | |
reducing her hours as she works full-time. The way to change the | :17:22. | :17:27. | |
system needs to be in fermented. She says she feels she is being | :17:28. | :17:31. | |
currently punished by the benefit system by trying to bring home mail | :17:32. | :17:36. | |
money by working her way up. A single person on income support on | :17:37. | :17:44. | |
housing benefit can be paid out more in benefits than she rings home | :17:45. | :17:48. | |
including her tax credits to support her family. And Dorothy says, she | :17:49. | :17:52. | |
fully understands the need for reform. The motion today clearly | :17:53. | :17:58. | |
states it is the pace and the impact on the lowest paid workers. I firmly | :17:59. | :18:06. | |
believe that work should always pay. People should always be better | :18:07. | :18:11. | |
off in a job than benefits. And I say that as someone who did not go | :18:12. | :18:18. | |
to university. When I left school, I did a succession of low-paid | :18:19. | :18:23. | |
part-time jobs before I joined the Royal Air Force at the age of 19, | :18:24. | :18:26. | |
worked my way up and travelled the world. I am proud that since 2010, | :18:27. | :18:35. | |
unemployment in my constituency is down by 51%. I am proud that use | :18:36. | :18:42. | |
unemployment is down by more than one half. -- youth unemployment. I | :18:43. | :18:50. | |
am proud that there is a net increase of 170 new businesses and | :18:51. | :18:56. | |
there have also been over 4700 new apprenticeships started. I am proud | :18:57. | :19:01. | |
to say I have just taken on my first apprentice and I campaign him the | :19:02. | :19:06. | |
living wage. On Friday 20th of November, I am holding my latest | :19:07. | :19:13. | |
jobs fair at the Civic Hall where over 30 local businesses and | :19:14. | :19:16. | |
organisations will be offering quality jobs and apprenticeships. We | :19:17. | :19:23. | |
must build a low tax, low welfare, high wage economy. And as a | :19:24. | :19:27. | |
compassionate conservative, I want to live in a country where everyone | :19:28. | :19:34. | |
has the opportunity of a decent, well paid job. So let's crack on | :19:35. | :19:38. | |
with it, and let's stand up for working people. I welcome the | :19:39. | :19:43. | |
Chancellor's announcement that he will lessen the impact on families | :19:44. | :19:46. | |
and he will lessen the impact on families and people set out these | :19:47. | :19:52. | |
plans in the Autumn Statement. I hope the Chancellor and his Treasury | :19:53. | :19:56. | |
boffins will be listening very carefully to the various | :19:57. | :19:59. | |
suggestions, some of them very, very inventive, the transition | :20:00. | :20:06. | |
arrangementss. Madam Deputy Speaker, let's show that Britain can live | :20:07. | :20:11. | |
within its means but most importantly, whilst looking after | :20:12. | :20:17. | |
the most vulnerable and supporting those who go out and work everyday. | :20:18. | :20:22. | |
I am going to make a very unusual statement. Members have been so | :20:23. | :20:27. | |
disciplined and have taken so few interventions and have been so | :20:28. | :20:31. | |
careful in their remarks this afternoon, that we have more time | :20:32. | :20:38. | |
than I have had anticipated. I am therefore going to increase the | :20:39. | :20:41. | |
limit on backbench speeches to eight minutes. So we will hear even more | :20:42. | :20:50. | |
from Mr Alan Brown. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I welcome this | :20:51. | :20:56. | |
debate today and I welcome for the most part the tone of the debate, | :20:57. | :21:01. | |
particularly the early contributions from the benches opposite. I really | :21:02. | :21:06. | |
hope these contributions are a sign that there is a mood swing across | :21:07. | :21:10. | |
the whole government benches which, I must say, is in stark contrast to | :21:11. | :21:17. | |
recent contributions. If it is OK, I would like to outline some of the | :21:18. | :21:20. | |
previous actions of this house and contributions from members over the | :21:21. | :21:26. | |
past week which had myself head scratching, and I am sure my | :21:27. | :21:31. | |
constituents, in terms of the focus of this house. Last Thursday, one | :21:32. | :21:37. | |
honourable member suggested that a public fund be set up to donate to | :21:38. | :21:41. | |
the restoration of this house. I found that incredible. If I took | :21:42. | :21:45. | |
that addition to my constituents, the only way I would get money is if | :21:46. | :21:55. | |
I got them to donate to swear box if I suggested it. Another member said | :21:56. | :22:00. | |
there was no need to reform the House of Lords, and we had a debate | :22:01. | :22:16. | |
last Thursday, on the Euro, and a number of members over the other | :22:17. | :22:21. | |
side suggested that this was the thing their constituents were most | :22:22. | :22:26. | |
worried about. Over the weekend, we had the bill for Trident is up to | :22:27. | :22:36. | |
?160 billion. That is a 67% increase and yet, the government does not | :22:37. | :22:42. | |
flinch. They are still taking forward these proposals on tax | :22:43. | :22:46. | |
credits. Monday night, there was a lost opportunity, I think, to kill | :22:47. | :22:51. | |
the tax credit built stone dead. But at least the other place did flex | :22:52. | :22:56. | |
some muscle and is causing the government to think again. There | :22:57. | :23:00. | |
have been plenty of suggestions today on how we can take this | :23:01. | :23:04. | |
forward. I should ask that the previous tone on some of the debate | :23:05. | :23:07. | |
on tax credits has been very unhelpful, and I welcome the earlier | :23:08. | :23:10. | |
contribution from the honourable member for Aberconwy. Which actually | :23:11. | :23:17. | |
can condemns one of his friends for suggesting that one of the | :23:18. | :23:23. | |
suggestions to make up for tax credits was to take to jobs or work | :23:24. | :23:27. | |
longer hours, that is not practical and it is one way to work or soft | :23:28. | :23:33. | |
into an early grave. -- work yourself. This is the number one | :23:34. | :23:37. | |
issue for my constituents and I am pleased that the SNP has been | :23:38. | :23:43. | |
consistent in arguing against the cut in tax credits. Within my | :23:44. | :23:47. | |
constituency, there is an estimated 3800 working families that currently | :23:48. | :23:52. | |
are likely to be affected by tax credit proposals unless they are | :23:53. | :23:58. | |
amended. In previous debates we have talked about the high wage, low | :23:59. | :24:02. | |
tax, low welfare system. That has been clearly blown out of the water | :24:03. | :24:05. | |
by independent analysis and I welcome the fact that many | :24:06. | :24:10. | |
Honourable members in the inches opposite have acknowledged that and | :24:11. | :24:12. | |
they are calling for action to make sure we protect those on the lowest | :24:13. | :24:18. | |
wages. We should not forget people who are not working and are looking | :24:19. | :24:21. | |
to get into work, they are the ones who are in line to lose ?2000 per | :24:22. | :24:27. | |
year. That is impossible. They cannot lose that money and sustain a | :24:28. | :24:31. | |
family. A lot of people move in and out of work. Not only would they be | :24:32. | :24:35. | |
potentially losing money when they are in work, if there are zero hours | :24:36. | :24:41. | |
contract or they are unfortunate enough to lose their work, if they | :24:42. | :24:45. | |
are out of work and they need support, that support is being cut | :24:46. | :24:50. | |
dramatically. So what should we do? There have been some good | :24:51. | :24:52. | |
suggestions earlier on but the first thing is, we need to bring in a | :24:53. | :24:57. | |
proper living wage. A living wage in line with the cuts in tax credits so | :24:58. | :25:01. | |
that we haven't the cuts in welfare to make sure people are protected in | :25:02. | :25:06. | |
terms of income. -- we balance the cuts in welfare. The Chancellor | :25:07. | :25:12. | |
could increase support for small and medium-sized enterprises to take on | :25:13. | :25:15. | |
more employees, to help more people into work. I mentioned the cost of | :25:16. | :25:20. | |
Trident, we could easily scrap Trident, and we could scrap the | :25:21. | :25:23. | |
other place, even though we welcome the decision they made the other | :25:24. | :25:27. | |
day, we still call for the other place to be scrapped. It is | :25:28. | :25:32. | |
perfectly obvious there should be a cut in tax avoidance and evasion. | :25:33. | :25:36. | |
The other night the SNP put forward a motion... I personally think we | :25:37. | :25:48. | |
should press bows -- macro scrap the proposed right to buy social housing | :25:49. | :25:56. | |
and the subsidies on the rights to buy. There is no way the taxpayer | :25:57. | :26:01. | |
should be paying up to ?100,000 for somebody to purchase a home in | :26:02. | :26:12. | |
London. In terms of in Scotland, it would be helpful if the UK | :26:13. | :26:15. | |
Government allowed better borrowing powers for the Scottish governance | :26:16. | :26:18. | |
so they can use those powers to invest in infrastructure and capital | :26:19. | :26:23. | |
spend which will create jobs. I mentioned housing, the government | :26:24. | :26:27. | |
should be building more housing. In government in Scotland we have been | :26:28. | :26:29. | |
showing the way in building more showing the way in building more | :26:30. | :26:32. | |
social housing, producing more jobs and a better standard for living for | :26:33. | :26:37. | |
people. Then they are building energy-efficient homes which means | :26:38. | :26:40. | |
that families are paying less in heating and makes it easier in terms | :26:41. | :26:44. | |
of not having to make that difficult choice in terms of heating and | :26:45. | :26:50. | |
eating. The other measures the SNP suggested, reintroduce the 50p tax | :26:51. | :26:54. | |
rate. We should not raise the upper threshold. We could have a bank | :26:55. | :26:59. | |
levy, mansion tax, and going through with the complete aberration of | :27:00. | :27:01. | |
non-Dom status. The government does not have too go to the deficit so | :27:02. | :27:12. | |
slowly -- quickly, it can go for a more delicate and balanced approach. | :27:13. | :27:23. | |
We should not be looking at low-paid workers, and talking about the | :27:24. | :27:30. | |
exception policy with a third child. Nobody from the opposite benches | :27:31. | :27:34. | |
have intervened in that because it is an obscene policy and nobody can | :27:35. | :27:40. | |
justify or explain it. I asked the government minister to speak with | :27:41. | :27:43. | |
the Chancellor, revisit this whole package because the savings are only | :27:44. | :27:49. | |
?4.6 billion. We need a proper strategic overview and that might | :27:50. | :27:53. | |
get us to a long-term recovery plan which works in action not just in | :27:54. | :27:56. | |
words cheered from the benches opposite. | :27:57. | :28:01. | |
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Also the government are pursuing the | :28:02. | :28:08. | |
right strategic course of supporting working families through the tax | :28:09. | :28:12. | |
system, it's become very clear over the last few weeks the way this | :28:13. | :28:15. | |
policy was being implemented was going to leave many poor and | :28:16. | :28:22. | |
vulnerable families harshly exposed. As a result of the efforts of my | :28:23. | :28:27. | |
honourable friend this debate, we can properly consider the | :28:28. | :28:32. | |
transitional measures brought in to support those families. The current | :28:33. | :28:39. | |
arrangements and the proposals the government have introduced are to be | :28:40. | :28:43. | |
welcomed. The increase in the personal tax threshold will enable | :28:44. | :28:46. | |
working taxpayers to keep more of the money they earn. The | :28:47. | :28:49. | |
introduction of the national living wage is a bold and radical move | :28:50. | :28:54. | |
which my honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer should | :28:55. | :28:58. | |
be applauded. The government has rightly prioritised working families | :28:59. | :29:03. | |
for the offer of 30 hours free childcare but these initiatives on | :29:04. | :29:06. | |
their own don't go far enough and more transitional supporters needed. | :29:07. | :29:16. | |
In the constituency I represent, people often work part-time. That | :29:17. | :29:21. | |
like to work longer hours and earn more, and through hard work and | :29:22. | :29:25. | |
training, they'd like to climb up a ladder of workplace progression. The | :29:26. | :29:30. | |
problems they have is that this option isn't currently available to | :29:31. | :29:34. | |
them. Has been an economic decline for 40 years. Traditional industries | :29:35. | :29:39. | |
have gone, the factory gates have closed, and the fishing industry is | :29:40. | :29:44. | |
a poor shadow of itself. Scene is repeated in many places around their | :29:45. | :29:47. | |
country. To their credit, the coalition government and this | :29:48. | :29:50. | |
government have recognised this fundamental flaw in the country's | :29:51. | :29:55. | |
economy and they are putting in place policies that will reverse | :29:56. | :29:59. | |
this decline and bring new jobs to many areas. Policies that will | :30:00. | :30:03. | |
ensure that in the long term we will have a balanced economy where growth | :30:04. | :30:09. | |
is not concentrated in a few places, and where opportunities are | :30:10. | :30:11. | |
available for all across the whole country. Devolution, investment in | :30:12. | :30:16. | |
infrastructure, investment in education and schools. These | :30:17. | :30:21. | |
policies will work but they will not do so overnight. They will need | :30:22. | :30:26. | |
time, and they may well need to be refocused, redesigned, and rebooted. | :30:27. | :30:33. | |
In the short term, there is a need for support to ensure that the | :30:34. | :30:37. | |
removal of working tax credits doesn't punitively hit those on low | :30:38. | :30:42. | |
wages. There is no silver bullet, and there may well be a need for | :30:43. | :30:45. | |
more than one initiative. The Treasury will need to weigh up very | :30:46. | :30:50. | |
carefully what alternative tax-raising measures may be | :30:51. | :30:54. | |
necessary in order to produce a balanced budget and to remain on | :30:55. | :30:59. | |
course to eliminate the deficit. It is very important that any tax | :31:00. | :31:04. | |
increases are progressive, and do not hit on fairly the poorest | :31:05. | :31:09. | |
members of society. As mitigating measures, I make four suggestions. | :31:10. | :31:17. | |
Full consideration should be given to phasing and the withdrawal of | :31:18. | :31:21. | |
working tax credits, spreading out would be fairer and rising wages | :31:22. | :31:26. | |
would help reduce the impact. Secondly, increasing the point at | :31:27. | :31:30. | |
which employees start paying National Insurance should also be | :31:31. | :31:33. | |
considered. This will be more effective than a further increase in | :31:34. | :31:39. | |
the personal tax threshold as people will pay National Insurance from | :31:40. | :31:44. | |
?8,164 compared to ?11,000 for income tax. Thirdly, the offer of | :31:45. | :31:50. | |
tax breaks for those businesses who voluntarily and more quickly move to | :31:51. | :31:53. | |
pay the national were living wage should also be looked at. And, | :31:54. | :31:58. | |
finally, I think that we do need to review the current design of the | :31:59. | :32:05. | |
universal credit. It is in many respects bizarre that the | :32:06. | :32:08. | |
introduction of the universal credit and the withdrawal of working tax | :32:09. | :32:11. | |
credits are being carried out at the same time by different apartments. | :32:12. | :32:15. | |
This might explain why the government is in the position they | :32:16. | :32:21. | |
find themselves today, with policies not properly coordinated. Working | :32:22. | :32:23. | |
tax credits were introduced by Gordon Brown with apparently limited | :32:24. | :32:30. | |
consultation with the DWP. It is a fatal flaw at the heart of | :32:31. | :32:33. | |
government which should have been addressed a long time ago. The great | :32:34. | :32:39. | |
advantage of universal credit is its simplicity. It'll boost employment, | :32:40. | :32:44. | |
and it'll make it easier for people to understand why they are better | :32:45. | :32:48. | |
off in work. However, it should be made more flexible. Much of the | :32:49. | :32:52. | |
current emphasis is on getting one person in a household into work. | :32:53. | :32:56. | |
There should be more focus on boosting employment within the | :32:57. | :33:00. | |
household as a whole. There is a need to rebalance the incentives | :33:01. | :33:05. | |
universal credit creates to better support single parents, second | :33:06. | :33:08. | |
earners in families with children, and also the disabled. The universal | :33:09. | :33:13. | |
credit should be made easier to use. It should not penalise families | :33:14. | :33:15. | |
whose earnings and outgoings don't fit into the monthly pattern. There | :33:16. | :33:24. | |
is a particular problem for the 800,000 self-employed households | :33:25. | :33:26. | |
moving on to universal credit have to start to apportion their income | :33:27. | :33:32. | |
on a monthly basis rather than through the annual HMC 's | :33:33. | :33:37. | |
self-assessment. This creates a huge bureaucratic burden. I will give | :33:38. | :33:45. | |
way. I agree with my honourable friend. He, like me, represents a | :33:46. | :33:51. | |
coastal community with low pay. Would he acknowledge that as well as | :33:52. | :33:54. | |
the help that needs to be given to those who are in receipt of the tax | :33:55. | :34:01. | |
credits, we must pay particular attention to the fact that the | :34:02. | :34:05. | |
spending power that is being taken out of the local economy, if we | :34:06. | :34:11. | |
proceed with the proposals as the government previously outlined, | :34:12. | :34:13. | |
would be detrimental to our areas, and that is something we have to | :34:14. | :34:19. | |
take into consideration? Grateful to my honourable friend for making that | :34:20. | :34:22. | |
intervention. He is, of course, quite right in making that comment. | :34:23. | :34:28. | |
Very often, perhaps, when in the Treasury, you've got some very | :34:29. | :34:32. | |
clever people there, you look at the country as a whole but you need to | :34:33. | :34:36. | |
realise that things are very different in different places. The | :34:37. | :34:42. | |
final point I want to make on universal credit is the requirement | :34:43. | :34:46. | |
to provide childcare bills on a monthly basis could mean parents | :34:47. | :34:51. | |
whose child care costs are high at certain times of the year will be | :34:52. | :34:55. | |
financially worse off than they would be under the current system. | :34:56. | :35:00. | |
Finally, for those receiving help with rate, the option of payments | :35:01. | :35:04. | |
going straight to the landlord should be more easily accessible. In | :35:05. | :35:10. | |
conclusion, Madam Deputy Speaker, in the longer term, I think the | :35:11. | :35:14. | |
government need to take stock of their approach to welfare reform. | :35:15. | :35:18. | |
They have been right to rise to the challenge and most of their policies | :35:19. | :35:22. | |
have been successful. How they move forward needs careful thought and | :35:23. | :35:29. | |
reflection. Perhaps, alongside the benefit cap, there should be a | :35:30. | :35:33. | |
benefit ceiling. In the short term, in the next four weeks, there is a | :35:34. | :35:39. | |
lot of work to be done to get this particular policy right. To ensure | :35:40. | :35:43. | |
that it is fair, that it does not penalised the working poor. And that | :35:44. | :35:48. | |
it does provide them with that ladder of work -based progression. | :35:49. | :35:56. | |
Madam Deputy Speaker, this has been a very strange debate, it is as if | :35:57. | :36:01. | |
we have managed to collect within the chamber of the House of Commons | :36:02. | :36:06. | |
all the sensible people from all the parties, and have a serious debate | :36:07. | :36:12. | |
about. It is unnerving to step out the comfort zone of yelling of each | :36:13. | :36:19. | |
other and listen to sensible contributions, including the 1 we | :36:20. | :36:23. | |
have just heard. And, perhaps, it is a lesson to all of us that maybe | :36:24. | :36:26. | |
this is the way we should have done it in the first place. Before the | :36:27. | :36:30. | |
Chancellor made an announcement. Actually to set out some broad | :36:31. | :36:35. | |
principles, would need to reduce the welfare budget, we made a commitment | :36:36. | :36:38. | |
in the manifesto and we'd like to look at these issues, we need to | :36:39. | :36:43. | |
find ?12 billion, how might we best do it? And using the wit of all the | :36:44. | :36:48. | |
people throughout the chamber, all the select committees that we | :36:49. | :36:51. | |
nominate and a point which work incredibly hard on our behalf, I am | :36:52. | :36:56. | |
perfectly sure we could have come up with something less painful, less | :36:57. | :37:02. | |
crude and less crass, and saving the Chancellor a fair bit of grief as | :37:03. | :37:06. | |
well. However, we didn't do it that way. We are doing it the other way | :37:07. | :37:11. | |
around. And let's hope we can get to something like a sensible result. It | :37:12. | :37:17. | |
also hope we will listen to the people out there. This is a classic | :37:18. | :37:21. | |
debate, where we need to actually listen to the people who will be | :37:22. | :37:25. | |
influenced, the people impacted. Often not very articulate people, | :37:26. | :37:30. | |
often not necessarily people who will be in touch with a local member | :37:31. | :37:34. | |
of Parliament, but I really want to speak up for all of those people, | :37:35. | :37:38. | |
particularly in my own constituency of Nottingham North, the dinner | :37:39. | :37:44. | |
ladies, the check-out staff, the administrative staff, nursing and | :37:45. | :37:49. | |
teaching assistants, manual workers, all of whom need us, whatever our | :37:50. | :37:55. | |
political persuasion, to be sticking up for them right now because we | :37:56. | :38:01. | |
should all be in it together but, actually, very often it feels we are | :38:02. | :38:05. | |
not. I looked at the numbers of people in my constituency who will | :38:06. | :38:09. | |
benefit from the changes in inheritance tax. And I came up, | :38:10. | :38:13. | |
after a lot of searching, with a large zero. Unfortunately, it didn't | :38:14. | :38:19. | |
take me much time to find the numbers of the people in my | :38:20. | :38:23. | |
constituency who will not be benefiting from these changes on tax | :38:24. | :38:29. | |
credit. It actually amounts to 12,300 children in the families that | :38:30. | :38:33. | |
are impacted. Why is it important to me? It is because I am to be MP for | :38:34. | :38:39. | |
the second most deprived area in the UK in terms of child poverty in low | :38:40. | :38:44. | |
income families. That is a matter of great concern to me. It is not all | :38:45. | :38:49. | |
in it together because those kids are not in it with the people who | :38:50. | :38:55. | |
are on higher incomes, and they should be shouldering a fair share, | :38:56. | :38:59. | |
nothing more, a fair share of the tax burden our country. In effect | :39:00. | :39:05. | |
what we are doing, those colleagues who missed out who know their food | :39:06. | :39:12. | |
banks, this is in effect a food bank recruitment scheme on behalf of the | :39:13. | :39:15. | |
government. And I think we need to be very, very careful about how we | :39:16. | :39:20. | |
tread on this because no one is ready for it. Some of us believed | :39:21. | :39:24. | |
the prime Minister when he was on television before the general | :39:25. | :39:28. | |
election and said there would be no changes to the tax credit system. | :39:29. | :39:32. | |
And that is the same prime minister who, sadly, was in this house with | :39:33. | :39:36. | |
all of us just if you weeks ago saying he was delighted the cuts | :39:37. | :39:41. | |
were voted through on the previous evening. That indicate something | :39:42. | :39:46. | |
else, Madam Deputy Speaker, which is a contempt for institutions other | :39:47. | :39:53. | |
than government. And I do Labour this point, I know, but the point | :39:54. | :39:59. | |
about listening to people outside, it doesn't mean you are diverted | :40:00. | :40:03. | |
from your principles, it means you can enable your principles better by | :40:04. | :40:06. | |
listening to people who might be able to help you in a slightly | :40:07. | :40:12. | |
better way. The other thing is the impact on broader families. Four out | :40:13. | :40:17. | |
of five families in my constituency received tax credits because of the | :40:18. | :40:22. | |
low income nature of my constituency, being in the top 20 of | :40:23. | :40:25. | |
those constituencies that are deprived. We can do a job for them. | :40:26. | :40:31. | |
We're not going to overturn necessary what the Chancellor thinks | :40:32. | :40:36. | |
but members in this house can do as the member for Birkenhead has done | :40:37. | :40:41. | |
and look at the question of papers, of thresholds, transitions, of the | :40:42. | :40:45. | |
time all we need to allow people to adjust to a massive change that is | :40:46. | :40:49. | |
going to take place in their life. Looking at the family element, | :40:50. | :40:53. | |
looking consistently and reviewing and analysing over future years the | :40:54. | :40:58. | |
impact of this so that we can mitigate it on the worst examples | :40:59. | :41:03. | |
and the worst cases. I'm delighted today we haven't heard that word, | :41:04. | :41:08. | |
scroungers, in this debate, or people having a free ride on the | :41:09. | :41:13. | |
state and on the system because, as it happens, in my constituency, two | :41:14. | :41:17. | |
thirds of those people who are on tax credits are at work. They are | :41:18. | :41:22. | |
being subsidised to be at work by the rest of us, and subsidising | :41:23. | :41:27. | |
low-paying employers. I will give way. Maybe one of the reasons this | :41:28. | :41:34. | |
debate today has not been disfigured by such terms is because the people | :41:35. | :41:40. | |
that my honourable friend is talking about are literally the people, the | :41:41. | :41:44. | |
friends and families and neighbours that we stand alongside in | :41:45. | :41:47. | |
supermarket queues and on the side of the rugby pitch on a Sunday | :41:48. | :41:50. | |
morning, and so on. These are literally the people that we know. | :41:51. | :41:56. | |
And they are not them and us. They are us. And that's why we have to, | :41:57. | :42:04. | |
as we side alongside them in the supermarket queues, stand alongside | :42:05. | :42:06. | |
them here as well because they deserve us. | :42:07. | :42:11. | |
My honourable friend is absolutely right, although sometimes when we | :42:12. | :42:17. | |
think this is a big issue and some of the media does, you would be | :42:18. | :42:20. | |
amazed that people don't actually know that it is going to hit them. | :42:21. | :42:25. | |
Until that letter drops. Until it actually happens. As a wise old bird | :42:26. | :42:33. | |
once said, who used to be in the House of Commons, he taught me that | :42:34. | :42:38. | |
lesson. He said it won't affect people's real lives until next | :42:39. | :42:42. | |
April. And then there will be a shock and tidal wave of people | :42:43. | :42:47. | |
saying, "my God, what are you doing to us. Why are you allowing this to | :42:48. | :42:53. | |
happen?" And that's between -- by between now and then, we have to do | :42:54. | :42:58. | |
our best to mitigate the worst consequences. I just want to say a | :42:59. | :43:01. | |
few words about the National Living Wage. The National Living Wage is a | :43:02. | :43:13. | |
bit like evil. It is so smart, but the reality is, is it really be | :43:14. | :43:18. | |
substance? Is it really the detail of what people need in their lives? | :43:19. | :43:23. | |
Saying you are going to have a national minimum wage sounds | :43:24. | :43:25. | |
fantastic, but if it doesn't actually mean that your income is | :43:26. | :43:29. | |
going to be at least as good as it exports before, it is a fraud. -- as | :43:30. | :43:36. | |
it was before. I thank him for giving way. Does he agree with me | :43:37. | :43:41. | |
that the National Living Wage is not the actual living wage, which is set | :43:42. | :43:45. | |
by the living wage foundation, which is far higher than the governments | :43:46. | :43:50. | |
of National Living Wage. And that to call it a living wage is a misnomer? | :43:51. | :43:55. | |
I totally agree with her intervention. The living wage | :43:56. | :43:59. | |
foundation has already blown that myth out of the water and said it is | :44:00. | :44:03. | |
not actually what everybody else seems to think of as being the | :44:04. | :44:07. | |
living wage. The Institute for Fiscal Studies, our own House of | :44:08. | :44:15. | |
Commons library have both said that the so-called National Living Wage | :44:16. | :44:19. | |
doesn't make good what people will lose and both of those highly | :44:20. | :44:22. | |
authoritative independent organisations say it will only cover | :44:23. | :44:26. | |
about one quarter of the loss that family will incur. Then you have a | :44:27. | :44:35. | |
lot of other factors, like being compounded, the difficulties being | :44:36. | :44:41. | |
compounded around the idea of Universal Credit. And all this in | :44:42. | :44:46. | |
terms of my constituency is showing that deprivation is not being | :44:47. | :44:49. | |
addressed and analysis IT in the way that it should be. Over the last | :44:50. | :44:57. | |
five years, in my constituency, 5.9% more people are in the category of | :44:58. | :45:01. | |
being deprived than they were five years ago. And I just asked the | :45:02. | :45:05. | |
Chancellor to try to understand this. It isn't always Witney and | :45:06. | :45:14. | |
pattern. Those are the 20 most deprived constituencies, like | :45:15. | :45:18. | |
Liverpool Walton, Manchester Central. That's where our people | :45:19. | :45:22. | |
live and where people need their representatives to stick up for | :45:23. | :45:27. | |
them. That's where the free market, politically, doesn't work, inviting | :45:28. | :45:31. | |
people over for shooting or writing. That is not where I live, it's not | :45:32. | :45:36. | |
the way other people will get that message over and have their voices | :45:37. | :45:40. | |
heard. It is by sensible people that we have heard from all parties | :45:41. | :45:47. | |
briefly. In the spirit of this briefly. In the spirit of this | :45:48. | :45:54. | |
cross-party co-operation, does he not accept that there are some small | :45:55. | :45:58. | |
businesses where we don't go sheeting and were not into that kind | :45:59. | :46:03. | |
of behaviour. -- shooting. But there are some that appreciate the fact | :46:04. | :46:09. | |
that the Treasury is allowing them to adapt to a new National Living | :46:10. | :46:13. | |
Wage. And the time allowed was not necessarily made available to those | :46:14. | :46:19. | |
recipients of tax credits. The honourable gentleman will forgive | :46:20. | :46:25. | |
me, I'm not trying to trivialise it. We all need to work together and | :46:26. | :46:30. | |
put our points collectively said the government will listen, something | :46:31. | :46:34. | |
they should have been doing before and I represent lots of places, area | :46:35. | :46:42. | |
is not known to places Leigh people in this chamber today. Real people, | :46:43. | :46:46. | |
as you all have in your constituencies. -- these people. And | :46:47. | :46:56. | |
they will be hit hard by this. The technical knowledge around those | :46:57. | :47:01. | |
issues, I am not so were rough, but let's make the best of a very, very | :47:02. | :47:10. | |
bad job. -- so aware of. It's a pleasure to speak in this debate. I | :47:11. | :47:18. | |
echo his comments that I have been sitting through. Far more positive | :47:19. | :47:26. | |
than some of the ones we sometimes see. I would like to thank the | :47:27. | :47:32. | |
member for Birkenhead in securing this debate and I knew I could look | :47:33. | :47:38. | |
forward to a measured speech that he would give and he delivered on it. | :47:39. | :47:43. | |
In terms of speaking today, I wanted to start with do I believe that the | :47:44. | :47:50. | |
tax credits system needs reform? At the moment, six out of ten families | :47:51. | :48:01. | |
receive it. You can receive it and the House of Commons library shows | :48:02. | :48:08. | |
some that are over ?40,000 receive some of it. So it was interesting to | :48:09. | :48:16. | |
hear that one said it was a bill that needs to be reduced. It will be | :48:17. | :48:20. | |
interesting to see what proposals are brought forward. I do support | :48:21. | :48:28. | |
the Chancellor 's aims, doing a high wage, low welfare economy. In my | :48:29. | :48:34. | |
constituency over the last five years, there are less people on | :48:35. | :48:38. | |
unemployment benefit, more people getting opportunities and seen the | :48:39. | :48:43. | |
investment going in to create more jobs and see a real drive to help | :48:44. | :48:49. | |
people get on in life and make a difference to them and their | :48:50. | :48:53. | |
families. That's what I support. That's the core of the reasons I am | :48:54. | :48:57. | |
here and practices on these benches as a Conservative member of | :48:58. | :49:07. | |
Parliament. -- proud to sit. I will end up voting to this motion if I | :49:08. | :49:13. | |
end up sitting on it. My family was rich in love, if not in money when I | :49:14. | :49:19. | |
was growing up. My father worked as a painter and my mother was a | :49:20. | :49:27. | |
teaching assistant. I disagree with some of the members opposite. I | :49:28. | :49:33. | |
think it's right we give people the opportunity to buy their own house. | :49:34. | :49:37. | |
I grew up in a house where my parents were able to be helped to | :49:38. | :49:43. | |
buy their own houses. Ironically, that was brought in by a Labour | :49:44. | :49:49. | |
government. It's not that long ago that those on the left were arguing | :49:50. | :49:52. | |
that people shouldn't be paying rent, they should be owning their | :49:53. | :49:58. | |
own homes. It is right we continue that opportunity for a new | :49:59. | :50:02. | |
generation, based on dealing with having more housing supply coming. | :50:03. | :50:09. | |
For me, we do need to have some clever ideas around how to mitigate | :50:10. | :50:15. | |
it. I notice we seek the usual magic money trees presented by some. Those | :50:16. | :50:20. | |
are the same people whose oil revenue projections weren't exactly | :50:21. | :50:23. | |
accurate last year either. Sticking to the issue, I have confidence the | :50:24. | :50:28. | |
Chancellor will come forward in the Autumn Statement with proposals to | :50:29. | :50:31. | |
mitigate the impact for the lower paid and that is why I am happy to | :50:32. | :50:35. | |
support this motion to ask the government to look at it again. I | :50:36. | :50:40. | |
think the actual hit, it is fine to talk about the destination of a high | :50:41. | :50:47. | |
wage, low welfare economy. Go on then. I wonder if he could enlighten | :50:48. | :50:52. | |
us on how the Chancellor was going to forecast for the debt reduction | :50:53. | :50:58. | |
in the last parliament? Let me talk about how we have an economy moving | :50:59. | :51:03. | |
forward, we have increased health spending, which has not happened in | :51:04. | :51:07. | |
Scotland and I must say, if we talk about what is happening in Scotland, | :51:08. | :51:16. | |
last week 's daily record, our failing NHS is the SNP's fault. -- | :51:17. | :51:27. | |
daily record. But going back to what we are here to debate today, it is | :51:28. | :51:30. | |
always lovely to have an accompaniment from this benches. | :51:31. | :51:36. | |
It's not the e-mails I've received, It's not the e-mails I've received, | :51:37. | :51:40. | |
it's not the stuff in the media, it's about the thousands of families | :51:41. | :51:44. | |
I represent that are like the family I came from. And whatever we may | :51:45. | :51:48. | |
think of the destination of this policy area, it is about making sure | :51:49. | :51:52. | |
that the journey we go to get to it is one that doesn't impact on people | :51:53. | :51:59. | |
who are trying to do their best in life. As I listened to the | :52:00. | :52:06. | |
Birkenhead speech, I think it is important is that we have | :52:07. | :52:10. | |
alternatives that don't make things worse or create the wrong | :52:11. | :52:16. | |
incentives. One member made a point about the House of Commons library | :52:17. | :52:23. | |
figures on his proposals, and indicated an effective taxation rate | :52:24. | :52:29. | |
of almost 100%, which would be higher than what anyone in the world | :52:30. | :52:36. | |
is paying in terms of income. It would be strange to implement that | :52:37. | :52:42. | |
just to the people on under ?20,000. When it turns into something like | :52:43. | :52:45. | |
that, it would be a disincentive to work. For me, I look forward to | :52:46. | :52:53. | |
seeing what the government bring forward. I also look forward to | :52:54. | :52:59. | |
continuing engagement with the Treasury bank. And I think it is | :53:00. | :53:08. | |
right that we cannot just oppose and not offer up alternatives and I hope | :53:09. | :53:14. | |
there will be clear engagement with members of this house and with | :53:15. | :53:21. | |
Parliament on how we can mitigate them and deliver them on a | :53:22. | :53:26. | |
deliverable settlement, which means we achieve our fiscal goals, which | :53:27. | :53:32. | |
were so strongly endorsed in the UK General Election not that long ago. | :53:33. | :53:35. | |
It has been a pleasure to sit through this debate and it will be a | :53:36. | :53:44. | |
pleasure to welcome the proposals put forward to mitigate the impact | :53:45. | :53:49. | |
on the lowest paid, as this motion calls for. Thank you. Can I just | :53:50. | :53:57. | |
started by welcoming the Chancellor's announcement on Tuesday | :53:58. | :54:00. | |
that he will be bringing measures forward to mitigate the changes to | :54:01. | :54:04. | |
tax credits, but the question that is on all of our lives is how far | :54:05. | :54:09. | |
does this inclination stretch? To mitigate some to mitigate all? My | :54:10. | :54:17. | |
message is very clear. Changes must be of a certain way. They should be | :54:18. | :54:22. | |
tapered, so people don't lose out. They should be phased in. The | :54:23. | :54:27. | |
package should increase incomes at the same rate as which tax credits | :54:28. | :54:33. | |
are tapered off. It's easy to admit that I have certain sympathies with | :54:34. | :54:37. | |
the principle being pursued here. I think everybody, everybody sensible | :54:38. | :54:44. | |
person -- every sensible person should agree that work should pay. | :54:45. | :54:52. | |
In an ideal world, the government wouldn't need to prop up wages. But | :54:53. | :54:57. | |
we don't live in that ideal world at the present moment. The economy is | :54:58. | :55:02. | |
not in that position. The government had intended to put the cart before | :55:03. | :55:09. | |
the horse. As a cynic, I don't believe the Chancellor's statement | :55:10. | :55:14. | |
had compassion at its heart. For me, it was driven by fear, fear of | :55:15. | :55:19. | |
losing power in the phoney constitutional law that has now been | :55:20. | :55:26. | |
started with the other place. Yes, of course. I agree with my | :55:27. | :55:33. | |
honourable friend that the second chamber has forced the Chancellor's | :55:34. | :55:37. | |
hand here, but would he agree with me that despite their intervention, | :55:38. | :55:42. | |
it still does not legitimise the constitutional absurdity that is an | :55:43. | :55:47. | |
unelected, unaccountable, and ever-growing legislator at the end | :55:48. | :55:52. | |
of the corridor? I think the house would be unsurprised to know that I | :55:53. | :55:57. | |
completely agree, just because it sees sense on one particular issue, | :55:58. | :56:04. | |
it doesn't legitimise it. The Chancellor's statement was | :56:05. | :56:07. | |
predicated on much as the fact that as an unelected chamber, it stuck | :56:08. | :56:15. | |
its nose into financial matters, so it it's corroborate our view that | :56:16. | :56:22. | |
the other patient should go. -- place should go. We should put | :56:23. | :56:26. | |
ourselves back in the shoes that many of us walked in not so long | :56:27. | :56:31. | |
ago. Figuring out what ordinary people would lose them finding that | :56:32. | :56:36. | |
completely and utterly unacceptable. We were elected in this place to | :56:37. | :56:40. | |
protect vulnerable people. Not to punish them. I was going to use this | :56:41. | :56:48. | |
time to talk about some of my constituents in detail. And outline | :56:49. | :56:52. | |
precisely how these changes could destroy their lives. I was going to | :56:53. | :57:02. | |
Katie and Ollie are going to lose over ?100 a month. So they might not | :57:03. | :57:09. | |
be able to take the mountain bike tracks at the weekend. She will move | :57:10. | :57:14. | |
from fresh to frozen food. Katie has no support network for Ollie, she | :57:15. | :57:19. | |
has no choice but to work part-time because her sister has recently | :57:20. | :57:23. | |
passed away. When Ollie isn't a school, she must be available and | :57:24. | :57:28. | |
with him. She works all the hours available to her, she's got nowhere | :57:29. | :57:32. | |
to go with this. I was going to tell you about Jenny, who was | :57:33. | :57:37. | |
self-employed as a childminder. Her partner is also self-employed. They | :57:38. | :57:43. | |
will lose ?130 a month. Jenny worries that her customers who are | :57:44. | :57:47. | |
in receipt of tax credits will no longer be able to use her service. | :57:48. | :57:52. | |
Jenny told me she literally lies awake at night wondering what this | :57:53. | :57:55. | |
place is going to do to destroy her life. I was going to tell you more | :57:56. | :58:01. | |
about Jenny Katie and others but these stories would only have impact | :58:02. | :58:05. | |
if they were listened to by members opposite who displayed some | :58:06. | :58:07. | |
compassion. It has been the case that most of the speeches today have | :58:08. | :58:12. | |
moved into the realms of compassion, and I welcome that, but it is the | :58:13. | :58:17. | |
compassion of the 300 members that are not here today that really | :58:18. | :58:22. | |
concerns me. So, instead of considering how the cuts will affect | :58:23. | :58:26. | |
Katie and Jenny, perhaps the benches opposite should consider how these | :58:27. | :58:31. | |
cuts will affect them as MPs. What have they got to fear? One of the | :58:32. | :58:37. | |
first changes they may notice, and we all may notice, is that our high | :58:38. | :58:43. | |
streets start to struggle more than they are. High streets are | :58:44. | :58:47. | |
struggling in my constituency and the removal of ?4.4 billion from | :58:48. | :58:52. | |
people's pockets, these are not Internet bargain hunters but people | :58:53. | :58:55. | |
who shop on a high streets, it'll compound a precarious situation. If | :58:56. | :59:04. | |
we remove money from people who shop on our high streets, prepare, my | :59:05. | :59:09. | |
honourable friends, for more charity shops. Members may begin to notice | :59:10. | :59:14. | |
the police services in the local areas are busier than they used to | :59:15. | :59:18. | |
be. And they might wonder why instances of crime have increased. | :59:19. | :59:23. | |
It'll be because desperate people, young people with no hope, people | :59:24. | :59:27. | |
disenfranchised from the communities in government, people like that | :59:28. | :59:32. | |
often turn to crime. If we can mitigate these changes in full, it | :59:33. | :59:38. | |
may well be cost-effective. Members may notice over the course of the | :59:39. | :59:41. | |
next Parliament the performance of schools might begin to drop. Members | :59:42. | :59:46. | |
may see them falling down the league tables and wonder why. This will be | :59:47. | :59:52. | |
happening because hungry children do not learn well. Katie is beginning | :59:53. | :59:56. | |
to really worry about Ollie's education as a result of these | :59:57. | :00:00. | |
proposed cuts. The food budget will be the first thing that struggling | :00:01. | :00:04. | |
families will cut and this will have an immediate impact on the | :00:05. | :00:08. | |
educational achievements of the children in all of our | :00:09. | :00:13. | |
constituencies. How many of the absent members on the opposite | :00:14. | :00:17. | |
benched dining out? I suspect quite a few. Nice to have a range of | :00:18. | :00:20. | |
different restaurants to choose from. Well, Madam Deputy Speaker, | :00:21. | :00:25. | |
they did enjoy them while they can because these, too, would be under | :00:26. | :00:30. | |
threat because the hospitality industry, in which I was brought | :00:31. | :00:34. | |
up, depends upon a thriving local economy. Many of the people we | :00:35. | :00:38. | |
welcome to Dumfries Galloway on holiday are people from the rest of | :00:39. | :00:41. | |
the UK who can't afford to go abroad. People in receipt of tax | :00:42. | :00:48. | |
credits. The holiday will be one of the first cuts from the annual | :00:49. | :00:51. | |
budget. Do I need to continue? Make no mistake, these tax credits will | :00:52. | :00:58. | |
have an impact on the absent Tory MPs, too. If the government cannot | :00:59. | :01:02. | |
mitigate the cuts in full, they'll be responsible for the demise of all | :01:03. | :01:08. | |
of our communities. The constituents of Tory constituencies will not | :01:09. | :01:12. | |
thank them, and I doubt they will re-elect them. Madam Deputy Speaker, | :01:13. | :01:16. | |
I look forward to hearing how the government will mitigate in full the | :01:17. | :01:21. | |
very wide and far reaching effects of these unnecessary and wholly | :01:22. | :01:30. | |
ideological cuts. Thank you, that Deputy Speaker, it is a great honour | :01:31. | :01:34. | |
to follow the honourable member the Dumfries Galloway. I have been one | :01:35. | :01:38. | |
of those who has visited that constituency on holiday and I | :01:39. | :01:40. | |
remember one particular evening being bitten alive by midges. We had | :01:41. | :01:47. | |
to escape on our car and smoke cigars to keep them away. Of course, | :01:48. | :01:52. | |
there was nobody under the age of 18 in the car at the time. One very | :01:53. | :01:56. | |
noticeable thing that happened earlier this month, which may not | :01:57. | :02:01. | |
have come to people's attention, was that the IMF, not an organisation I | :02:02. | :02:12. | |
have always had a lot of some lethal -- sympathy for made a statement, | :02:13. | :02:16. | |
which was that excessive inequality damages growth. It damages the | :02:17. | :02:23. | |
economy, and I think it is amazing, and very welcome, that the IMF has | :02:24. | :02:28. | |
come to that conclusion. It has come to that conclusion not just in | :02:29. | :02:31. | |
respect of developing countries but in respect of any country. In my | :02:32. | :02:36. | |
opinion, tax credits have been a means of reducing inequality in this | :02:37. | :02:45. | |
country. When I spoke last week, the opposition led debate last week, I | :02:46. | :02:50. | |
urge the government to look again at this policy, and in particular the | :02:51. | :02:54. | |
timing. I'm so glad the Chancellor has said he will do this and will | :02:55. | :02:59. | |
bring forward measures. I'd like to pay particular tribute to my | :03:00. | :03:01. | |
honourable friend the minister sitting in his place now because he | :03:02. | :03:05. | |
has always been listening, and is a great credit to his position, as | :03:06. | :03:11. | |
indeed has the Chancellor's PPS, sitting behind him. The honourable | :03:12. | :03:20. | |
member for Kingswood, of course. I mentioned to other things. One was | :03:21. | :03:26. | |
the predictability that income is about predictability. It isn't just | :03:27. | :03:30. | |
about levels of income. If you can't predict your income, it is a great | :03:31. | :03:36. | |
driver into relative poverty. We see that all over the world. Therefore, | :03:37. | :03:39. | |
the proposals that were originally before us were to lead to cut soft | :03:40. | :03:50. | |
10-15% without knowing what was going to happen, so getting a letter | :03:51. | :03:54. | |
in December will turn two January for something happening in a couple | :03:55. | :03:58. | |
of months, you will not have had opportunity to correct that. When | :03:59. | :04:04. | |
you have a low income, things are more expensive. The inflation rate | :04:05. | :04:07. | |
is much higher on low incomes than it is for people on higher incomes. | :04:08. | :04:14. | |
You aren't buying products that come down in price, you are not going | :04:15. | :04:21. | |
with easyJet on holiday, something which may have affected the | :04:22. | :04:26. | |
inflation, and we need to bear that in mind. The inflation might be 0%, | :04:27. | :04:32. | |
but it isn't 0% for people on the lowest incomes. I will give way. | :04:33. | :04:40. | |
Would the honourable gentleman agree with me that poverty in this country | :04:41. | :04:45. | |
is poverty of aspiration, and that the people we are talking about | :04:46. | :04:50. | |
today are trying to work themselves out of that kind of poverty? If we | :04:51. | :04:54. | |
see everything in terms of income, we are a poorer society, as John F. | :04:55. | :05:01. | |
Kennedy once said. Honourable members have also talked about the | :05:02. | :05:06. | |
fallacy of trickle-down economic. I've seen around the world when | :05:07. | :05:09. | |
trickle down economics was supposed to be the way the poor would get | :05:10. | :05:16. | |
richer. What we need is surge up economic speakers the people on the | :05:17. | :05:20. | |
lower incomes spend the money locally, goes into taxes, it goes | :05:21. | :05:25. | |
into VAT. Several hundred million of the 4.4 billion. So we have to | :05:26. | :05:34. | |
remember the consequences on the effects of the local economy, the | :05:35. | :05:38. | |
loss of the spending power. If one thing is to be reduced, then we must | :05:39. | :05:44. | |
seize the other sources of income increase simultaneously. There is | :05:45. | :05:46. | |
also the impact I mentioned last week and other honourable members | :05:47. | :05:53. | |
have mentioned, those on fixed incomes, full-time carers, for | :05:54. | :05:56. | |
example, who won't see rises in their income. They have no | :05:57. | :06:00. | |
opportunity to work more hours most of the time. Also the impact on the | :06:01. | :06:06. | |
self-employed and on farmers. In my constituency, they've seen milk | :06:07. | :06:09. | |
prices fall. That is the only source of income, and they are reliant on | :06:10. | :06:13. | |
tax credits as much as anybody else. Sometimes people see those who are | :06:14. | :06:19. | |
asset rich, those delivering on milk week in week out, our wheat, their | :06:20. | :06:25. | |
incomes are low and they rely on tax credits as well. I'd like to also | :06:26. | :06:31. | |
look to the future. Other than the Macs have mentioned areas where we | :06:32. | :06:38. | |
could raise the extra income to offset the cost of deferring the | :06:39. | :06:46. | |
reductions in tax credits. I mentioned a couple last week and I | :06:47. | :06:49. | |
won't repeat those. But I want to make a couple of points about the | :06:50. | :06:53. | |
future. The first is about National Insurance. There's been talk about | :06:54. | :06:57. | |
merging income tax and National Insurance. I think that would be a | :06:58. | :07:02. | |
big Mac mistake. I believe it is incredibly important to have a | :07:03. | :07:06. | |
progressive national, social National Insurance system into which | :07:07. | :07:10. | |
people contribute, even at low incomes, perhaps at low rates, but | :07:11. | :07:14. | |
which they feel they have a stake in, and to which they are entitled | :07:15. | :07:19. | |
to receive benefits from, if the need arises. And I would urge that | :07:20. | :07:24. | |
the government looks very closely at how instead of getting rid of | :07:25. | :07:27. | |
National Insurance we can actually improve it, and improve the National | :07:28. | :07:31. | |
Insurance system so that we are more like the German system, perhaps, | :07:32. | :07:36. | |
where you contribute more into a National Insurance system but you | :07:37. | :07:41. | |
have benefits when you are sick, and when you are out of work, and, | :07:42. | :07:47. | |
eventually, when you retire. The second thing, Madam Deputy Speaker, | :07:48. | :07:52. | |
is to look at our savings. We don't safe enough. That's a fact. Looking | :07:53. | :07:58. | |
at other countries, like Italy, they are far better at saving. The | :07:59. | :08:02. | |
Japanese are excellent saving. That's why when colleagues of mine | :08:03. | :08:08. | |
and I produced a report calling on social stability last year, we | :08:09. | :08:12. | |
emphasised the importance of introducing a lifetime's savings | :08:13. | :08:19. | |
account which could be supported, perhaps, through tax-free | :08:20. | :08:21. | |
contributions over the course of your lifetime which you to be able | :08:22. | :08:25. | |
to draw down at particularly difficult points in your life, if | :08:26. | :08:28. | |
you became seriously ill, if you are out of work, and could eventually be | :08:29. | :08:33. | |
converted into part of your pension. What that would encourage people to | :08:34. | :08:38. | |
do is put aside money, supported by the state, and that would be able to | :08:39. | :08:44. | |
top up what are always paid out of the state system likely to be fairly | :08:45. | :08:50. | |
basic though, hopefully, liveable off benefits. I welcome the | :08:51. | :08:57. | |
Chancellor 's statement this week. I'd urge and to look at all the | :08:58. | :09:01. | |
points made this week made by members on all sides. I thank the | :09:02. | :09:09. | |
honourable member from Birkenhead for his initiative at bringing | :09:10. | :09:17. | |
forward this debate. I think that as other members have said, this has | :09:18. | :09:21. | |
been a very measured debate. It is in no small part, I have to say, to | :09:22. | :09:28. | |
the way in which it started. And the contribution by the member for | :09:29. | :09:31. | |
Birkenhead because he did approach this debate from the point of view | :09:32. | :09:35. | |
that he is a problem which is going to affect many of those people in | :09:36. | :09:40. | |
our constituencies who want to improve their lives to go out and | :09:41. | :09:46. | |
work every day, and yet are going to be adversely affected by this | :09:47. | :09:53. | |
proposal. And it deserves the kind of measured response, the thoughtful | :09:54. | :10:01. | |
ideas which came forth from this debate, and he has set the standard | :10:02. | :10:04. | |
which has probably been replicated by other members. Of course, a | :10:05. | :10:09. | |
debate like this can lead to the kind of knock-about that you get in | :10:10. | :10:15. | |
a confrontational parliament such as this. Some of us enjoy that. But I'm | :10:16. | :10:21. | |
not so sure that it actually serves those whose lives are being affected | :10:22. | :10:26. | |
by this proposal. And, given that, I think it is then important how the | :10:27. | :10:34. | |
government responds to this debate. And... The government can real | :10:35. | :10:42. | |
against the constitutional outrage of the House of Lords defying the | :10:43. | :10:47. | |
House of Commons, the unelected house modifying the elected house. | :10:48. | :10:56. | |
And can call for someone to get rid of the turbulent toffs down the | :10:57. | :11:01. | |
corridor and come forward with minimal changes. I think that is a | :11:02. | :11:08. | |
mistake. The second option, of course, is for the Autumn Statement | :11:09. | :11:14. | |
to be used for the government to bring forward proposals which are | :11:15. | :11:20. | |
perhaps minimalist in trying to deal with some of those who are uneasy on | :11:21. | :11:25. | |
the backbenches but still don't address the real problems. Or to | :11:26. | :11:31. | |
have a complete rethink and to involve those who wish to be | :11:32. | :11:36. | |
involved constructively. It has been suggested here today the committees | :11:37. | :11:43. | |
which could be used here, and, of course, the devolved administrations | :11:44. | :11:47. | |
should not be exempt from this. In Northern Ireland, we have done | :11:48. | :11:53. | |
extensive work for the northern island executive on the impact which | :11:54. | :11:58. | |
to these changes are likely to have no wide range of groups. And I think | :11:59. | :12:04. | |
that should feed into the data which the member for Birkenhead referred | :12:05. | :12:05. | |
to in his comments. I think there's good reasons why the | :12:06. | :12:16. | |
government should take a constructive approach. There is a | :12:17. | :12:21. | |
wide spread recognition and as a spokesman for all parties here | :12:22. | :12:28. | |
today, they do except that we cannot go on with a situation where | :12:29. | :12:32. | |
taxpayers subsidise low wages from employers who could afford to pay | :12:33. | :12:39. | |
more. -- spokesmen for all parties. That covers the whole basis of the | :12:40. | :12:44. | |
government's policy, which is to rebalance the economy and there is | :12:45. | :12:47. | |
now recognition that that needs to be done. And there is also a | :12:48. | :12:52. | |
willingness to look at the issues that need to be addressed. Antidotes | :12:53. | :12:58. | |
are the issues that need to be addressed, and the ones I need to | :12:59. | :13:04. | |
highlight. One is a issue of timing. If we are going to make that change, | :13:05. | :13:11. | |
then there has to be an assurance that the safety net, which is | :13:12. | :13:15. | |
currently available to those who are low paid, is not removed until the | :13:16. | :13:22. | |
problem of low wages has been fixed. I think that must be a central | :13:23. | :13:26. | |
premise in any way in which this issue is addressed and... I will | :13:27. | :13:35. | |
give way. Which he agree with me that issues like public sector pay | :13:36. | :13:42. | |
must be looked at, and that it is the bedrock of our society, in terms | :13:43. | :13:48. | |
of the public sector, like school cleaners and assistance in schools, | :13:49. | :13:54. | |
which we all depend upon. And it will be addressed if we deal with | :13:55. | :13:58. | |
the issue in the way I have suggested, like a safety net is not | :13:59. | :14:03. | |
being removed until the issue of wages has been dealt with. And I | :14:04. | :14:06. | |
think that's the first important principle. The second one is that we | :14:07. | :14:11. | |
must be sure that we have identified all of the groups that are likely to | :14:12. | :14:16. | |
be affected during the transition period. And one group which I have | :14:17. | :14:22. | |
mentioned time and time again are those who will not be affected by | :14:23. | :14:27. | |
the National Living Wage. The under 25 's. Many of them will have | :14:28. | :14:33. | |
families, many of them, if we set the pattern at the very beginning of | :14:34. | :14:37. | |
their working lives, if work doesn't pay, they will stay in their | :14:38. | :14:43. | |
pattern. And it is important that that group is addressed and also | :14:44. | :14:47. | |
that the families with children are addressed. And on that point, I | :14:48. | :14:51. | |
would appreciate some answer from the Minister that childcare | :14:52. | :14:57. | |
allowance and the extra childcare funding which is available. That is | :14:58. | :15:01. | |
a devolved issue in Northern Ireland, but will there be a bonnet | :15:02. | :15:07. | |
consequential, so that the same arrangements can be put in place as | :15:08. | :15:11. | |
our suggested by the Chancellor for England and Wales -- attempt to | :15:12. | :15:21. | |
consequential. -- tax credits consequential. There are some places | :15:22. | :15:32. | |
where the market is buoyant. In those sectors and regions, of course | :15:33. | :15:36. | |
an increase in the National Living Wage can be afforded. But there are | :15:37. | :15:41. | |
other sectors and other regions where that may not be the case. And | :15:42. | :15:45. | |
there is no point in simply saying let's treat everywhere, or the South | :15:46. | :15:52. | |
East of England and the IT industry, or the banking industry, and then | :15:53. | :15:59. | |
impose burdens on small businesses, retail sectors, they have all been | :16:00. | :16:06. | |
identified here today. And we need to address the fact there is uneven | :16:07. | :16:12. | |
performance across the economy. I will give way. I think we also have | :16:13. | :16:16. | |
to pay some attention to the larger picture. When we look at the USA, | :16:17. | :16:25. | |
the top 0.1% have as much as the bottom 9%. It goes to the top, where | :16:26. | :16:34. | |
they have 350 times what an average worker can get. I suppose that | :16:35. | :16:41. | |
brings me to the last point, how do you find all of this? It's a | :16:42. | :16:45. | |
reasonable question and the Chancellor and Prime Minister asked | :16:46. | :16:52. | |
it all the time. I'll be going to keep on borrowing? The one thing I | :16:53. | :16:57. | |
do know, and I served as finance minister in Northern Ireland for | :16:58. | :17:07. | |
four or five years, I can't count... Which doesn't help. But I remember | :17:08. | :17:12. | |
in the very first year, the last government took over, the July | :17:13. | :17:19. | |
Autumn Statement 5% was taken off our budget three months into the | :17:20. | :17:25. | |
financial year. But it was still possible to find the changes which | :17:26. | :17:29. | |
are required, because necessity required us to do that. We are | :17:30. | :17:35. | |
talking about two thirds of a percent of the total budget for the | :17:36. | :17:39. | |
UK, which has to be found to find that. If we decided to do nothing | :17:40. | :17:49. | |
and keep on paying the tax credits, two thirds of a percent had to be | :17:50. | :17:54. | |
found across the whole UK budget. No one is going to tell me that, with | :17:55. | :18:02. | |
planning, that is not possible to do . The have been suggestions put | :18:03. | :18:08. | |
forward. Different people have different political priorities as to | :18:09. | :18:12. | |
where those cuts should can. But I believe it is doable, if there is | :18:13. | :18:18. | |
the will. My fear is this, that the government can make, because it is | :18:19. | :18:22. | |
cocky at the moment, the opposition is not in the best shape that it | :18:23. | :18:26. | |
should be in. I'm not going to start making point about it. They're not | :18:27. | :18:31. | |
in the best shape they should be. And the temptation will be to use | :18:32. | :18:40. | |
the disarray to try and force things through. And we have heard it time | :18:41. | :18:45. | |
and time again. We have got a majority for this in the House of | :18:46. | :18:48. | |
Commons. That doesn't matter. The question is, will it be perceived as | :18:49. | :18:53. | |
fair? If it is perceived as fair, then it will not have support across | :18:54. | :18:59. | |
the country. That's regardless of what happens here. And my fear is | :19:00. | :19:05. | |
this, that in doing so, the government, which of course is the | :19:06. | :19:09. | |
Labour Party time and time again that they are unelectable, may well | :19:10. | :19:14. | |
annoy people so much, and anger people so much, that the unelectable | :19:15. | :19:20. | |
becomes electable. If people can judge whether that is a good thing | :19:21. | :19:25. | |
or a bad thing. If the process of making that happen means that those | :19:26. | :19:30. | |
who are these drivers in society, the low paid workers suffer, I don't | :19:31. | :19:34. | |
believe that is a price worth paying. -- those who strive in | :19:35. | :19:43. | |
society. Thank you. And the member was right when he was talking about | :19:44. | :19:48. | |
that rush to get involved with a policy. And I think it is a real | :19:49. | :19:54. | |
pleasure to be in the chamber today for that rarest of treat, where we | :19:55. | :20:00. | |
are all furiously agreeing on the right thing to do, which is to make | :20:01. | :20:07. | |
a radical change to this approach. And, on that bus that people have | :20:08. | :20:10. | |
been on, it's like we are seeing that awakening of people, they have | :20:11. | :20:18. | |
been slumbering at the back to find the driver is going to be driving | :20:19. | :20:22. | |
them into a lorry. And I welcome it. The tone and contribution today | :20:23. | :20:27. | |
has been terrific. And I think it's worth repeating, because it is such | :20:28. | :20:31. | |
a rare thing to get in this environment. And I was cynical | :20:32. | :20:36. | |
before I got here, and I think it's great that I am here today to be in | :20:37. | :20:42. | |
this debate. So let's just talk about the basics, because a lot has | :20:43. | :20:47. | |
been said today. All of it makes sense. All of us knows there has to | :20:48. | :20:50. | |
be a change. The current policy means that more family will be | :20:51. | :20:55. | |
driven below the poverty line. That there will be more children in | :20:56. | :21:03. | |
poverty. That there is a clear dawn that minimum wage, members opposite | :21:04. | :21:09. | |
that are calling the minimum wage, which it isn't, is not going to | :21:10. | :21:12. | |
bridge the gap. It isn't going to bridge the gap that is going to be | :21:13. | :21:18. | |
created by the people under the age of 25, who won't have the comfort of | :21:19. | :21:24. | |
getting that even diminished living wage or minimum wage that is coming | :21:25. | :21:28. | |
and, because it won't apply to them. And remember, who is not in his | :21:29. | :21:35. | |
place at the moment, talks about the minimum wage cutting crime. -- the | :21:36. | :21:41. | |
member. My friends talked about the effect of changing people's | :21:42. | :21:45. | |
circumstance. If you create a bigger division, with earnings between | :21:46. | :21:53. | |
people, you may find there is a problem. I don't believe that the | :21:54. | :21:59. | |
outcomes that will be created by this policy have been taken into | :22:00. | :22:04. | |
account by certain members in this house. The O N S have provided the | :22:05. | :22:10. | |
Scottish Government with figures that see the 250,000 people are | :22:11. | :22:19. | |
going to lose ?1500 a year, right away. And that rises to ?3000 when | :22:20. | :22:29. | |
these measures are fully implemented. The Centre for Social | :22:30. | :22:36. | |
Justice says household debt is at ?34 billion. That's a devastating | :22:37. | :22:41. | |
cocktail of an outcome that is a possibility for us here if we do not | :22:42. | :22:48. | |
make a change here to the policy. These things, when you put families | :22:49. | :22:52. | |
under pressure, these things actually have a devastating effect, | :22:53. | :22:56. | |
overwhelming stress affecting mental health, affecting work performance. | :22:57. | :23:07. | |
There is an effect on productivity. And a strain on personal | :23:08. | :23:10. | |
relationships. If you want to see more children going into care, this | :23:11. | :23:15. | |
is a measure that could provide some of the stepping stones for that. | :23:16. | :23:19. | |
When the effects of this bite, and we have been talking about when | :23:20. | :23:24. | |
these effects are hit people, that is when we will see what is going to | :23:25. | :23:32. | |
happen. None of us will have to stare into an empty cupboard. None | :23:33. | :23:37. | |
of us will sit in the cold in our own homes, because we do. None of | :23:38. | :23:42. | |
us, as a result, will lick at a pile of bills afraid to open them. -- | :23:43. | :23:50. | |
look at a pile. In my constituency, we have a unique problem of having a | :23:51. | :23:55. | |
low-wage, low unemployment community. I say it's unique, but | :23:56. | :24:00. | |
it's not, but it is a particular problem in our community. 7000 100 | :24:01. | :24:06. | |
children are going to be pushed further into poverty. -- 7100 | :24:07. | :24:13. | |
children. Coupled with the increased cost of living, will post 210,000 | :24:14. | :24:20. | |
children into care. We have had a drain of young people over the | :24:21. | :24:24. | |
decades. We have encouraged people to stay and have larger families, | :24:25. | :24:31. | |
and the two children cap is going to punish Highland families. And that | :24:32. | :24:35. | |
will affect other constituencies in exactly the same way. So a big | :24:36. | :24:42. | |
family tradition is being attacked. And China was mentioned earlier. | :24:43. | :24:49. | |
This is an effect almost going into population control. The limits to | :24:50. | :24:53. | |
two children are going to cost ?7.2 million. And the taper increase, | :24:54. | :25:03. | |
?7.7 billion. We heard from my honourable friend earlier on a range | :25:04. | :25:08. | |
of different measures to take to look at putting money back into the | :25:09. | :25:13. | |
system. It doesn't all have to come from the welfare budget. That is an | :25:14. | :25:17. | |
ideological approach. What we can do is make sure that we are not wasting | :25:18. | :25:27. | |
money where you don't have too. The obscenity of looking seriously at | :25:28. | :25:33. | |
spending ?167 billion on weapons of mass destruction that you can never | :25:34. | :25:37. | |
use, because, if you do, it's mutually assured destruction, it is | :25:38. | :25:42. | |
literally mad to consider it and you don't have the control... I will | :25:43. | :25:48. | |
give way. Thank you. He hits an interesting point on the waste of | :25:49. | :25:52. | |
money there is on the weapons of mass destruction programme. It never | :25:53. | :26:02. | |
ending with the patriotism, but we are looking at a time when Britons | :26:03. | :26:08. | |
cannot live greatly. Some will be in terrible poverty. It will affect the | :26:09. | :26:18. | |
poor of the country as well. I couldn't agree more. When we look at | :26:19. | :26:22. | |
the choices, the choices that we are asked to make in this place, and it | :26:23. | :26:26. | |
was mentioned earlier, these choices are made now we decide to do this or | :26:27. | :26:32. | |
that, is the effective on people further the line and that kind of | :26:33. | :26:37. | |
excess, that kind of nonsense, when you actually are talking about | :26:38. | :26:40. | |
people looking into empty cupboards, sitting in the cold, is just an | :26:41. | :26:51. | |
obscenity. And I am grateful to the motion in the House of Lords the | :26:52. | :26:55. | |
other night that change the course of things to allow us to have this | :26:56. | :27:01. | |
debate, it only delays thinks, but I am grateful for it. But if we want | :27:02. | :27:08. | |
to make savings, that could actually make a difference and we want to | :27:09. | :27:12. | |
have a better system of democracy in this country, then that other place | :27:13. | :27:16. | |
should and must go. You should not be inflated -- should not have an | :27:17. | :27:23. | |
inflated other place, with people claiming ?300 a day, when other | :27:24. | :27:26. | |
people are having their benefits cut. I will give way. | :27:27. | :27:33. | |
What see as surprised as I was to see some of those perhaps signs of | :27:34. | :27:44. | |
socialism? Seven Labour peers voted with the Tories for these obscene | :27:45. | :27:52. | |
welfare measures. It is an incredible thing to note. It is | :27:53. | :27:58. | |
worth repeating in this house today. I think there are lots of measures, | :27:59. | :28:03. | |
there are lots of measures the UK government could take. They don't | :28:04. | :28:08. | |
have to continue down an ideological path to actually look at how do you | :28:09. | :28:14. | |
make sure we are taking money from the people that can least afford it | :28:15. | :28:19. | |
in order to make sure other people are able to enjoy more of the finery | :28:20. | :28:24. | |
they've had. We mustn't do that. The words that have been spoken today | :28:25. | :28:30. | |
have been worth listening to. And I hope that the UK government will | :28:31. | :28:33. | |
take this away, that the minister today will take these thoughts he is | :28:34. | :28:41. | |
heard behind his head and in the chamber today into account and | :28:42. | :28:43. | |
persuade the Chancellor to come back with something that is radically | :28:44. | :28:48. | |
different, and supports people. Supports people in our | :28:49. | :28:51. | |
constituencies, people who will be badly affected if this isn't changed | :28:52. | :29:03. | |
dramatically. I'd like to thank the honourable member for Birkenhead to | :29:04. | :29:06. | |
thank the honourable member for Birkenhead visit during this very | :29:07. | :29:09. | |
important debate. When I voiced my opposition to cuts to tax credits | :29:10. | :29:12. | |
back in July, I spoke of how the cuts would hit the poorest hardest. | :29:13. | :29:21. | |
I spoke of how in my constituency of Edmonton, 72% of people receive tax | :29:22. | :29:27. | |
credits. Over 42% of children live in relative poverty. So, you can | :29:28. | :29:31. | |
well imagine how worried I am for those constituents who, I am sure, | :29:32. | :29:38. | |
are watching now. The latest analysis from the Resolution | :29:39. | :29:43. | |
Foundation projects that over 200,000 more children will be in | :29:44. | :29:55. | |
poverty by 2016 if these unbelievable role... I can't even | :29:56. | :30:00. | |
get the word is out because I'm so upset about this. It is going to | :30:01. | :30:05. | |
affect people that I represent. The government has done nothing to | :30:06. | :30:08. | |
assess the impact on cuts and how it is going to affect children. Indeed, | :30:09. | :30:15. | |
the changing definition of child poverty in the Welfare Reform and | :30:16. | :30:18. | |
Work Bill totally fails to capture the true extent of child poverty. To | :30:19. | :30:23. | |
be clear, two thirds of children in poverty live in households where | :30:24. | :30:30. | |
women and men actually go to work. The situation for Edmonton, ranked | :30:31. | :30:45. | |
the six constituency with the third highest child poverty. It'll be felt | :30:46. | :30:51. | |
across the country. The IFA 's has shown that nearly 3.2 million | :30:52. | :30:57. | |
working families on benefits or tax credits only stand to gain an | :30:58. | :31:02. | |
average of ?200 from this so-called national living wage. Whereas they | :31:03. | :31:09. | |
stand to lose over ?750 per year because of benefits and the tax | :31:10. | :31:16. | |
credit cuts. Also, this personal tax allowance does nothing to address | :31:17. | :31:21. | |
the low paid, and won't help those earning below ?10,000. The value of | :31:22. | :31:30. | |
free childcare and to tax credit recipients is also very limited. And | :31:31. | :31:35. | |
hasn't been thought out. Because the reason I say it hasn't been thought | :31:36. | :31:39. | |
out is because I've had words with the National Association of head | :31:40. | :31:43. | |
teachers, and they've said, after speaking with their members, that | :31:44. | :31:47. | |
they are worried about the intake, and will they be able to expand to | :31:48. | :31:52. | |
take more children. So this needs to be thought out as well. So, to paint | :31:53. | :31:58. | |
these reforms as a valid replacement rather than a necessary | :31:59. | :32:01. | |
accompaniment to tax credits is quite untrue. The government has | :32:02. | :32:08. | |
broken its election promise, and is basically betraying the very people | :32:09. | :32:13. | |
it claims to represent. What I am calling for is the government to | :32:14. | :32:18. | |
reverse the cuts to tax credits. The evidence is against them. We've | :32:19. | :32:21. | |
heard it from all sides of the chamber. It is plain to see that it | :32:22. | :32:29. | |
isn't going to work. It isn't going to work because so many people are | :32:30. | :32:33. | |
going to be living in poverty. And I am sure this isn't what this | :32:34. | :32:38. | |
government is here for. If it is, it needs to think again. We also need | :32:39. | :32:43. | |
to think about our constituencies, and think about the surgeries we all | :32:44. | :32:49. | |
sit in and listen. Listen hard to those people who come and tell you | :32:50. | :32:52. | |
how worried they are, and how they don't know how they are going to | :32:53. | :32:56. | |
survive, and how they're going to look after their children. We saw a | :32:57. | :33:03. | |
woman in Question Time crying that she'd voted for a party and that | :33:04. | :33:07. | |
you'd let her down. It's time to stand with the people you represent. | :33:08. | :33:11. | |
I'm going to end by saying pushing ahead with these planned disgraceful | :33:12. | :33:22. | |
plans... Let me put it straight to you, if you try to do this and put | :33:23. | :33:25. | |
them forward, you're only going to show those people that want to go | :33:26. | :33:30. | |
out and work that it doesn't pay to go out and work. And I think you | :33:31. | :33:35. | |
need to look and think deeply about the decision to take these cuts | :33:36. | :33:45. | |
forward. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker, I'd like to thank the | :33:46. | :33:49. | |
honourable member from Birkenhead for securing this debate today. I'd | :33:50. | :33:56. | |
like to also like to applaud the other place for what they did the | :33:57. | :34:00. | |
other night. I'm not in favour of an unelected chamber, which means mean | :34:01. | :34:07. | |
need a second chamber but unelected chamber. I've said before that my | :34:08. | :34:14. | |
constituency suffers the seventh highest employment poverty. And the | :34:15. | :34:19. | |
11th highest income poverty. I have 5800 families would 8800 living in | :34:20. | :34:27. | |
poverty and at work. The school where I am a governor, there are 400 | :34:28. | :34:31. | |
children who take free breakfast in the morning. They take it because | :34:32. | :34:41. | |
they need to. We chose to do that because our children couldn't learn | :34:42. | :34:44. | |
because they were hungry. That is why we did it. They couldn't | :34:45. | :34:47. | |
concentrate to learn, which is why we did it. It makes my blood boil, | :34:48. | :34:55. | |
Mr Deputy Speaker, when I heard today a member from the opposition | :34:56. | :34:58. | |
benches talk about people choosing to be part time zero our contract on | :34:59. | :35:07. | |
16 hours or something like that, and other people said they should get | :35:08. | :35:15. | |
another job to get going. I have to represent hard-working people. There | :35:16. | :35:19. | |
are families, men, that went into the bowels of the earth to get | :35:20. | :35:22. | |
called to make the industry work, and many of those men are still of | :35:23. | :35:27. | |
employment age. Many of them on zero our contract. They know what hard | :35:28. | :35:32. | |
work is, and they don't mind it. They miss the, Rhodri of those | :35:33. | :35:37. | |
colleagues, but they look to work hard and earn their money. Many of | :35:38. | :35:40. | |
them worked in class furnaces. I want to tell a tale about a glass | :35:41. | :35:47. | |
furnace. It closed two years ago, the last one where I worked. 120 men | :35:48. | :35:56. | |
lost their jobs, and they were secured employment with the help of | :35:57. | :36:00. | |
their employer, a very large multinational car manufacturer. In a | :36:01. | :36:05. | |
neighbouring constituency. They got employment because they were skilled | :36:06. | :36:09. | |
workers, hard workers, that could use technology, drive vehicles in | :36:10. | :36:17. | |
the factory, and they were told ?10 an hour, not the rate the other | :36:18. | :36:21. | |
workers were on. They worked for 12 months, and then you'll get a | :36:22. | :36:25. | |
permanent contract with this employer on their rate of pay. Just | :36:26. | :36:30. | |
weeks before that 12 months arose, they came home from work, hundred | :36:31. | :36:40. | |
and 20 of them, and on the Friday, on the Saturday they received calls | :36:41. | :36:43. | |
they weren't needed on the Monday. That was after just tend and a half | :36:44. | :36:51. | |
-- ten and a half months of employment. A few of them got calls | :36:52. | :36:55. | |
after a weeks. There was extra work and they could give them work until | :36:56. | :37:01. | |
this Christmas. And they went back. They hadn't been able to find other | :37:02. | :37:06. | |
work. They went back to those jobs. They got three weeks. Within the | :37:07. | :37:11. | |
week 's previous to that, many of them were in rented accommodation. | :37:12. | :37:16. | |
They'd phoned every week to the housing association explaining their | :37:17. | :37:19. | |
benefits hadn't changed. That he benefits hadn't come through. One | :37:20. | :37:23. | |
thing I'd say is that universal credit will make it simpler because | :37:24. | :37:27. | |
they were waiting for housing benefit, council tax assistance, | :37:28. | :37:33. | |
child tax credit, and working tax credits. Each one comes through | :37:34. | :37:36. | |
separately. They hadn't been able to pay the rent. They rang the housing | :37:37. | :37:41. | |
association, and then one woman rang me literally in tears. Had to go | :37:42. | :37:47. | |
around. She had got a notice of possession. We sorted that one out, | :37:48. | :37:54. | |
and we sorted another few out, and we secured some mechanism that that | :37:55. | :37:59. | |
won't happen, that she would ring the number regularly if it happened. | :38:00. | :38:02. | |
When they were offered these jobs back to Christmas, they lasted three | :38:03. | :38:10. | |
weeks. So back they go again to applying for all these tax credits. | :38:11. | :38:14. | |
These are not people who choose to work on zero our contract or agency | :38:15. | :38:23. | |
work. One of the chaps, the woman's husband, he got a call a few weeks | :38:24. | :38:28. | |
ago that you've got a job with an agency. He says, you can't get a job | :38:29. | :38:35. | |
without an agency. He'd got a call that he'd got a job. He was made up. | :38:36. | :38:41. | |
He got a call 30 minutes later that he had to work two weeks free | :38:42. | :38:47. | |
without pay, and then he would be guaranteed an interview for a job. | :38:48. | :38:51. | |
Thank goodness his wife wouldn't let him go. Modern day slave. That same | :38:52. | :39:00. | |
gentleman has two weeks work with pain now and has gone off to do it. | :39:01. | :39:07. | |
Mr Deputy Speaker, what I would ask the Chancellor is to give due | :39:08. | :39:13. | |
consideration to the 700,000, three quarters of a million people, on | :39:14. | :39:17. | |
zero our contracts, and to the hundreds of thousands of people in | :39:18. | :39:23. | |
agency work. Something simply must happen. These agency workers are | :39:24. | :39:30. | |
exploiting unemployed people. It is modern day slavery what is going on | :39:31. | :39:35. | |
in this country. Implement has risen, yes, it has, but I wonder how | :39:36. | :39:41. | |
many members in this chamber realise that one-hour's work in a month | :39:42. | :39:45. | |
counts as being in employment. I couldn't believe it, but it is true. | :39:46. | :39:53. | |
There has been 400,000 increases in the number of people claiming | :39:54. | :40:01. | |
housing benefits. That is despite the bedroom tax and the cap. Why is | :40:02. | :40:10. | |
that? It is because wages are going down, not up. We have 4,300,000 | :40:11. | :40:20. | |
earning less than the living wage. There is a national shortage of | :40:21. | :40:24. | |
heavy goods vehicle drivers. Can anyone get training? Many of these | :40:25. | :40:29. | |
men have asked for it. I've told them there is a national shortage. | :40:30. | :40:33. | |
They asked at the unemployment exchange can they be trained? No. | :40:34. | :40:40. | |
What they did do was they send some way to get retrained or get up | :40:41. | :40:47. | |
skilled on stacker truck drivers. They were sanctioned whilst on that | :40:48. | :40:50. | |
course because they didn't turn up somewhere. This is the same people | :40:51. | :40:53. | |
who set up the training sanctioned them for not turning up. So, Mr | :40:54. | :41:00. | |
Deputy Speaker, my question is that the Chancellor doesn't play games | :41:01. | :41:04. | |
with this mitigation, and that he puts a stop on this tax credit | :41:05. | :41:15. | |
change, puts a stop, listens to the many excellent contributions given | :41:16. | :41:20. | |
today, and to please, please give consideration to how we can protect | :41:21. | :41:24. | |
those hard-working people who want to work, who are being punished on | :41:25. | :41:30. | |
zero our contracts, and through being agency workers. That is my ask | :41:31. | :41:34. | |
of the Chancellor, Mr Deputy Speaker. Thank you. | :41:35. | :41:46. | |
I am delighted we have the opportunity to hold the government | :41:47. | :41:51. | |
to account. I would like to thank all the speakers who have argued | :41:52. | :41:56. | |
that they must change course and I pay tribute to those on the | :41:57. | :42:04. | |
government wenches who have said wise words. -- government benches. | :42:05. | :42:11. | |
Why are we here again discussing tax credits? The government has got | :42:12. | :42:14. | |
itself into a mess and it needs to find a way out of it. These | :42:15. | :42:21. | |
proposals, which have now been passed through the statutory | :42:22. | :42:23. | |
instrument and passed through the other place, are not right. -- | :42:24. | :42:38. | |
rejected in the other place. There is no economic or moral or ethical | :42:39. | :42:45. | |
rationale as to why we need to rip 4.3 billion out of the programme. | :42:46. | :42:50. | |
Let's look at what the impact will do. And perhaps we can start with a | :42:51. | :42:57. | |
quote from the Adam Smith Institute, much loved by the government benches | :42:58. | :43:03. | |
in the past. "Working tax credits are the best form of welfare we have | :43:04. | :43:08. | |
and cutting them would be a huge mistake. The government has long | :43:09. | :43:13. | |
claimed to want to make work pay for everyone, but cutting tax credits | :43:14. | :43:17. | |
would this incentivise work and hurt those at the bottom of society." The | :43:18. | :43:27. | |
average negative impact amounts to ?1300 in 2016 and 2017, and impact | :43:28. | :43:35. | |
of around ?25 a week on family budgets. There was a line in the | :43:36. | :43:39. | |
period of Margaret Thatcher's government that if it wasn't | :43:40. | :43:43. | |
hurting, it wasn't working. Well, this is going to hurt and hurt | :43:44. | :43:46. | |
millions of families throughout the country. Is that what we want to | :43:47. | :43:54. | |
do? Is this right? Is it fair? Let's have a real debate about improving | :43:55. | :43:57. | |
living standards, but also recognition that we have to reverse | :43:58. | :44:03. | |
the growing inequality in the UK. Driving sustainable economic growth | :44:04. | :44:12. | |
on a fairer society negates the need for tax credits cuts. I thank him | :44:13. | :44:17. | |
for giving way and he makes a very persuasive case that he is | :44:18. | :44:20. | |
absolutely right that this will negatively impact some of the | :44:21. | :44:24. | |
poorest families. Does he agree with me that this will also | :44:25. | :44:30. | |
disproportionately affect the B and E communities? I thank him for his | :44:31. | :44:34. | |
intervention and he often speaks up for those in the BME communities. It | :44:35. | :44:47. | |
is those who will feel the impact. And others in the land. This must be | :44:48. | :44:53. | |
stopped, regardless of where they come from. We keep hearing that we | :44:54. | :45:03. | |
cannot afford this. Is the reverse is true. We cannot keep doing this | :45:04. | :45:09. | |
to families. We all want to reduce the deficit and national debt. We | :45:10. | :45:16. | |
need to drive economic growth to improve our financial position. You | :45:17. | :45:21. | |
don't do that by taking 4.4 billion out of the economy. It's the failure | :45:22. | :45:25. | |
to deliver growth, that constrains our ability to reduce the debt. If | :45:26. | :45:39. | |
the government 's policy had worked, the Bank of England would not be | :45:40. | :45:41. | |
intervening in the way it had, so-called quantitative easing. When | :45:42. | :45:48. | |
we talk about our debt crisis and the need to reduce spending, we seem | :45:49. | :45:55. | |
to airbrush away that we owed 370 billion to ourselves. Debt created | :45:56. | :46:02. | |
by ourselves. We on these benches understand that quantitative easing | :46:03. | :46:08. | |
was necessary. Can I add that the financial markets have benefited | :46:09. | :46:16. | |
massively from this. The FTSE 100 index was -- is at 370. The Bank of | :46:17. | :46:27. | |
England have acknowledged that those with financial assets have benefited | :46:28. | :46:31. | |
enormously from the quantitative easing programme over the last six | :46:32. | :46:36. | |
years. And if you look at the benefits, 40% have gone to the top | :46:37. | :46:45. | |
5% of our society. Don't talk to us about all of us being in this | :46:46. | :46:51. | |
together. This is important as if I am being charitable, the outcome of | :46:52. | :46:56. | |
policy has been to enhance the quality and we are here today being | :46:57. | :47:00. | |
told that the poor, and the working poor, must pay the price in a desire | :47:01. | :47:05. | |
to balance the books. It is unfair and wrong. Yesterday at Prime | :47:06. | :47:13. | |
Minister's Questions, the Prime Minister said that printing money | :47:14. | :47:17. | |
and putting up taxes, it is working people like Karen that are paying | :47:18. | :47:22. | |
the price. Perhaps I should point out to him that it is his government | :47:23. | :47:26. | |
with quantative easing that have been printing money and that tax | :47:27. | :47:33. | |
credits cuts are a reality -- in reality an increase for Karen. Those | :47:34. | :47:41. | |
who have benefited from quantative easing programmes, are now getting | :47:42. | :47:48. | |
an additional bonus through the changes to inheritance tax. Where is | :47:49. | :47:53. | |
the social justice and social cohesion from what we should be | :47:54. | :48:00. | |
striding to deliver? In the spirit of cooperation, let me help the | :48:01. | :48:11. | |
government. Well done. As he says. A report of the House of Commons | :48:12. | :48:16. | |
committee of Public accounts yesterday said that high levels of | :48:17. | :48:22. | |
benefit and tax cuts fraud remain unacceptable. They cost every | :48:23. | :48:28. | |
household around ?200 a year and most money that government could | :48:29. | :48:33. | |
spend on other things. Since 2010, both departments, talking about two | :48:34. | :48:43. | |
different ones have made progress, particularly Hatem RC. However, the | :48:44. | :48:53. | |
WP and hate RC still owed claimants by 4.6 billion because of fraud and | :48:54. | :49:06. | |
error. -- DWO and HMRC. It's just goes to show that if they weren't | :49:07. | :49:14. | |
making errors in overpayments, this could be used to protect low income | :49:15. | :49:21. | |
families. -- DWP and HMRC. Let me say to them, cut out the mistakes | :49:22. | :49:30. | |
and you have achieved the savings, don't go after the poor. Eliminate | :49:31. | :49:35. | |
fraud and mistakes and it's job done. The economic policies of the | :49:36. | :49:42. | |
government have created inequality and the result is that the poor are | :49:43. | :49:47. | |
having to pay again. Before Christmas, and letters will be | :49:48. | :49:50. | |
delivered to our constituents, who receive tax credits informing them | :49:51. | :49:56. | |
of the cuts that they will receive next April. As my honourable friend | :49:57. | :50:03. | |
says, "happy Christmas from Ebenezer Osborne." They will come to other | :50:04. | :50:11. | |
surgeries in despair as to how they are to make ends meet. Let me turn | :50:12. | :50:19. | |
to the proposals that have come from the Honourable member for | :50:20. | :50:23. | |
Birkenhead. I commend them from seeking a way out of the | :50:24. | :50:25. | |
difficulties that government is facing. The plan would involve | :50:26. | :50:33. | |
introducing a secondary earnings threshold. That would be paid for by | :50:34. | :50:38. | |
a steeper withdrawal rate for those earning above the new minimum rate. | :50:39. | :50:44. | |
But I say to him that we do not agree that those earning less than | :50:45. | :50:50. | |
13,000 should be protected, all of those who receive tax credits should | :50:51. | :50:56. | |
be protected. It is admirable but those earning modest amounts will be | :50:57. | :50:59. | |
protected, but those of modest means are still going to be hit. Take the | :51:00. | :51:05. | |
example of a family with two children and gross earnings of | :51:06. | :51:12. | |
?20,000, who was still lose over ?1000. This is not acceptable. The | :51:13. | :51:22. | |
tax credits should be -- tax credits cuts should be stopped. It should be | :51:23. | :51:29. | |
reversed in full. You are aware that I am new on this is the second time | :51:30. | :51:33. | |
I have been let loose at the dispatch box this week. I had the | :51:34. | :51:38. | |
pleasure of facing the member for South West Hertfordshire and today I | :51:39. | :51:42. | |
am facing the member for East Hampshire for what I hope will be | :51:43. | :51:47. | |
the first of many lively debates. I would like to thank the backbench | :51:48. | :51:51. | |
business committee, the Birkenhead and member and the other members who | :51:52. | :51:55. | |
have secured this very important debate. I would like to place on | :51:56. | :52:01. | |
record my thanks to the eye of S and the resolution foundation and other | :52:02. | :52:04. | |
groups for their work on today's issue. -- IFS. We have heard many | :52:05. | :52:16. | |
issues today. The Birkenhead member stated his case very eloquently, | :52:17. | :52:20. | |
saying that these reforms next April will not be acceptable and the | :52:21. | :52:26. | |
government must carry out due diligence reports on this. I also | :52:27. | :52:35. | |
commend the member in making his comments today in that he realised | :52:36. | :52:44. | |
his previous no cost report on -- reform suggestions will create a | :52:45. | :52:48. | |
higher penalty. This is the beauty, we will change our man -- our minds. | :52:49. | :53:00. | |
I emphasised that I put forward one idea to begin initiating debates. I | :53:01. | :53:05. | |
put three others today and I hope they are not going to use that as a | :53:06. | :53:09. | |
cop out for not giving a very clear message to the government on the | :53:10. | :53:15. | |
very point she has just made. I thank him for his intervention. I | :53:16. | :53:21. | |
also highlight the comments that the member made earlier, stating that | :53:22. | :53:26. | |
the people we should be saluting and CHEERING are sick with worry at the | :53:27. | :53:31. | |
moment. Countless members of an opposite members -- opposite members | :53:32. | :53:41. | |
condemned this. We heard the member for Stevenage saying he didn't feel | :53:42. | :53:45. | |
he could support this, because he had frightened families coming to | :53:46. | :53:49. | |
his surgeries. We heard from another who said we needed to look at this | :53:50. | :53:53. | |
does not penalised the very poorest does not penalised the very poorest | :53:54. | :53:58. | |
in society. Then we heard from another who said that everything he | :53:59. | :54:02. | |
believes in as a conservative is to get people into work, but there's a | :54:03. | :54:07. | |
real risk that these proposals will do the opposite. Then we heard from | :54:08. | :54:14. | |
another who said this policy was a mistake and highlighted the absence | :54:15. | :54:18. | |
of a proper impact statement. Then we had a change from this kind of | :54:19. | :54:25. | |
dialogue from another member. He was one of the members who applauded the | :54:26. | :54:29. | |
Chancellor and championed some of the measures that the government | :54:30. | :54:34. | |
would use to offset the tax credit losses. We heard from the member for | :54:35. | :54:39. | |
Colchester who supported the call for mitigation, the member for | :54:40. | :54:43. | |
Twickenham who supported high wage claims, but that the members at the | :54:44. | :54:50. | |
end should be protected. -- people at the end. And then, the member for | :54:51. | :54:56. | |
Harrow East who supported an amendment of the proposals. Another | :54:57. | :55:03. | |
said they needed to reconsider the pace of change. We heard from a | :55:04. | :55:12. | |
member who said a review was needed and transitional support was needed. | :55:13. | :55:17. | |
The member for Torbay supported the motion because his family was rich | :55:18. | :55:21. | |
in love growing up but poor in money and he realise the effect the | :55:22. | :55:25. | |
proposals may have an aspiration in the long term. Then we heard from | :55:26. | :55:33. | |
the member for Stafford, who cited JFK, saying if we see everything in | :55:34. | :55:38. | |
terms of income, we are a pro rata society. He made some very | :55:39. | :55:47. | |
refreshing comments. -- a poorer society. From this side, we heard | :55:48. | :55:54. | |
from the Darlington member, saying the fear is out there already and | :55:55. | :56:00. | |
the government must act quickly. Then another said the distribution | :56:01. | :56:07. | |
will impact were aggressive. Then another member said his mailbag was | :56:08. | :56:12. | |
full of letters from people who were terrified of what was to come. And | :56:13. | :56:18. | |
another said we need to build an economy where families don't need to | :56:19. | :56:23. | |
rely on tax credits, but it is a mistake to take from them before | :56:24. | :56:29. | |
their wages have risen. The member for Ealing Central and Acton said | :56:30. | :56:32. | |
the Chancellor could still change his mind and we would welcome that | :56:33. | :56:35. | |
on this site and the member for Lewisham and Deptford said the risk | :56:36. | :56:41. | |
is to struggling families and they may fall into debts. -- on this | :56:42. | :56:48. | |
site. We also heard from the member for Nottingham, and I had to say I | :56:49. | :56:56. | |
share his sentiments, said that the debate was lovely and is a | :56:57. | :56:59. | |
collective of all the sensible people and the government should | :57:00. | :57:02. | |
maybe have done it this way in the first place. | :57:03. | :57:10. | |
Then the member for Saint Helen 's south and west and who outlined | :57:11. | :57:15. | |
quite worryingly that her constituency was the seventh highest | :57:16. | :57:20. | |
in terms of unemployment poverty. Then we also heard from the | :57:21. | :57:24. | |
honourable members who confirmed that we can do much better than | :57:25. | :57:30. | |
this. Then another honourable member who highlighted the disincentive | :57:31. | :57:33. | |
biasing effect and the impact of under 25s. And the member who asked | :57:34. | :57:41. | |
to revisit the government's tax avoidance policies. And the worry | :57:42. | :57:47. | |
that the local economy might be affected by tax credits because | :57:48. | :57:58. | |
those on low pay our more likely to holiday in Dumfries Galloway, his | :57:59. | :58:04. | |
constituency. Another member highlighted household debt issues | :58:05. | :58:07. | |
and potential to exacerbate a serious problem. And the member who | :58:08. | :58:14. | |
said we need to drive a sustainable economic growth and you don't do | :58:15. | :58:18. | |
that by taking 4.5 billion out of the economy. Now, the motion before | :58:19. | :58:24. | |
the house today is timely in light of the events which occurred in the | :58:25. | :58:28. | |
other place this week and I make clear that we support the position | :58:29. | :58:32. | |
of our noble friends that these proposals shouldn't go ahead. | :58:33. | :58:36. | |
Certainly until there has been a proper consultation, a government | :58:37. | :58:39. | |
response to the distributional analysis conducted by the Institute | :58:40. | :58:45. | |
for Fiscal Studies, mitigation reform and withdrawal if | :58:46. | :58:48. | |
appropriate. From the names on the motion and the contributions we've | :58:49. | :58:50. | |
heard across the chamber today, it is widespread pressure which spans | :58:51. | :58:56. | |
all parties. For the government to firstly carry out and publish a | :58:57. | :59:02. | |
detailed impact assessment of the impact of cuts to tax credit and | :59:03. | :59:06. | |
then to detail proposals which will ensure that no family is worse off. | :59:07. | :59:10. | |
We are clear on the side of the house that is the government commits | :59:11. | :59:14. | |
to ensuring that no family will be worse off as a result of amended | :59:15. | :59:18. | |
proposals, we will put the interests of those families above party | :59:19. | :59:23. | |
political considerations, and we won't attack the government for | :59:24. | :59:26. | |
doing so. Quite frankly, I cannot think of any recent occasion when | :59:27. | :59:31. | |
any opposition has made such an offer, so I would call upon the | :59:32. | :59:34. | |
Minister to truly listen to the contributions today. This house is | :59:35. | :59:39. | |
at its best when we use the power of debate to convince other members to | :59:40. | :59:43. | |
believe on the merits of a particular argument regardless of | :59:44. | :59:46. | |
our ideologies. On rare occasion such as today, we do actually reach | :59:47. | :59:50. | |
a consensus in this house over certain issues. I hope the Minister | :59:51. | :59:55. | |
and members present will agree that the government's Liz Young tax | :59:56. | :59:59. | |
credits links to be reviewed and changed. To anticipate what he might | :00:00. | :00:04. | |
say in response, the Minister and myself agree on one point. It is | :00:05. | :00:10. | |
necessary to reduce the deficit over the economic cycle. Where we | :00:11. | :00:14. | |
disagree, however, is the economic strategy used to achieve this. And I | :00:15. | :00:18. | |
don't believe that the government's plans achieve that goal either | :00:19. | :00:24. | |
fairly or effectively. In fact, over the long-term, the savage cut would | :00:25. | :00:32. | |
achieve quite the opposite. As we have been reminded, the prime | :00:33. | :00:37. | |
minister denied any need or and to cut tax credits during the election. | :00:38. | :00:40. | |
The Minister must understand therefore that members of the | :00:41. | :00:44. | |
public, especially those that voted Conservative, are quite rightly very | :00:45. | :00:49. | |
angry. Cuts to tax credits would mean that more than 3 million | :00:50. | :00:54. | |
families would be on average ?1300 worse off next year. Some working | :00:55. | :00:58. | |
families will be losing nearly ?3500 a year. ?2.5 billion has been found | :00:59. | :01:07. | |
for an inheritance tax cuts benefiting the wealthiest 4% of | :01:08. | :01:11. | |
people in this country yet, at the same time, ?4.5 billion is being | :01:12. | :01:17. | |
taken out of the pockets of low and middle income families. The | :01:18. | :01:22. | |
Treasury's and analysis and that of the Resolution Foundation shows that | :01:23. | :01:26. | |
cuts to tax credits based on the current proposals would put another | :01:27. | :01:31. | |
200,000 children into poverty. Already half a million more children | :01:32. | :01:36. | |
are in poverty today than in 2010. We are told by the government that | :01:37. | :01:40. | |
cuts to tax credits would be compensated by the so-called living | :01:41. | :01:45. | |
wage. Let me be clear on this - they will not. In fact, the Institute for | :01:46. | :01:49. | |
Fiscal Studies made it quite clear that the increase in the minimum | :01:50. | :01:52. | |
wage cannot provide full compensation for the majority of | :01:53. | :01:56. | |
losses that will be experienced. It'll just be arithmetically | :01:57. | :02:01. | |
impossible. We are grateful for their analysis because the | :02:02. | :02:05. | |
government has refused to publish an adequate version of their own. And | :02:06. | :02:08. | |
the research shows further that because of the different profile and | :02:09. | :02:13. | |
scale of families and individuals on the minimum wage versus those in | :02:14. | :02:16. | |
receipt of tax credits, an increase in the minimum wage, although | :02:17. | :02:20. | |
welcome, went to mitigate the effects of these cuts and the | :02:21. | :02:23. | |
average family will still be significantly worse off. And, of | :02:24. | :02:28. | |
course, the rise in the minimum wage was accompanied by ?4 billion worth | :02:29. | :02:31. | |
of giveaways in cuts to corporation tax. We are also told that the | :02:32. | :02:37. | |
government will compensate for losses to income by providing 30 | :02:38. | :02:40. | |
hours free childcare for three and four-year-olds. In my own | :02:41. | :02:46. | |
constituency of Salford and Eccles, our Labour council already provides | :02:47. | :02:50. | |
25 hours of free childcare but demand outstrips supply. The | :02:51. | :02:53. | |
preschool learning Alliance has warned that councils are paying | :02:54. | :02:59. | |
childcare providers insufficient hourly rates to provide the existing | :03:00. | :03:03. | |
hours of free childcare and going up to 30 would push many providers to | :03:04. | :03:08. | |
breaking point. If the minister intends to site childcare as the | :03:09. | :03:11. | |
answer to tax credit cuts, perhaps he can confirm the 30 hours scheme | :03:12. | :03:15. | |
will be properly funded and won't push providers to the limit. In | :03:16. | :03:21. | |
conclusion, in my constituency over 61% of families are receiving tax | :03:22. | :03:25. | |
credits. They are not the so-called scroungers we hear about. They are | :03:26. | :03:40. | |
men and women working hard trying to build a future for themselves and | :03:41. | :03:43. | |
children. They are trying to live their children out of poverty and | :03:44. | :03:45. | |
provide them with the nourishment and financial support they need. So | :03:46. | :03:47. | |
maybe, just maybe, they won't have to suffer the same hardship their | :03:48. | :03:50. | |
parents team. There is no equivalent British dream. They work hard and | :03:51. | :03:52. | |
get nowhere. Low-paid and skilled work is the order of the day for | :03:53. | :03:55. | |
many. For some, it's a case of trying to build up a business to be | :03:56. | :03:59. | |
proud of. For some, they juggle work with the responsibility of caring | :04:00. | :04:03. | |
for loved ones. The government's claims tax credit cuts won't cause | :04:04. | :04:07. | |
any family to be worse off do not stand up to scrutiny. These families | :04:08. | :04:12. | |
deserve a future and, as such, we will support this motion. I'm | :04:13. | :04:20. | |
grateful as ever to have the opportunity to respond to this | :04:21. | :04:22. | |
debate on behalf of the government and I must start by thanking most | :04:23. | :04:26. | |
sincerely the chairman of the select committee, the Right Honourable | :04:27. | :04:32. | |
gentlemen, the member for Birkenhead, his expertise and | :04:33. | :04:35. | |
commitment are well-known and respected. I I look forward to many | :04:36. | :04:43. | |
opportunities to debate over these dispatch boxes with the member for | :04:44. | :04:52. | |
Salford and Eccles. The government is listening. And this debate forms | :04:53. | :04:57. | |
an important part of that process. I've heard the argument put forward | :04:58. | :05:01. | |
by Honourable members today. We are all united in wanting to implement | :05:02. | :05:05. | |
policies to deliver the best possible settlement for our | :05:06. | :05:08. | |
constituents. Now, in the near future and for generations to come. | :05:09. | :05:14. | |
This covenant's belief, Mr Speaker, underpins every aspect of our | :05:15. | :05:18. | |
policies, will that without is honoured bases of economic | :05:19. | :05:22. | |
stability, you can't protect the security of the nation. When | :05:23. | :05:25. | |
economic stability is lost, the entire system falls apart and, as a | :05:26. | :05:29. | |
rule, those who end up losing most of those who started with the least. | :05:30. | :05:34. | |
Mr Speaker, I acknowledge as does my honourable friend the Chancellor the | :05:35. | :05:39. | |
concerns expressed today and elsewhere and earlier by members of | :05:40. | :05:43. | |
this house. The Chancellor has said he has listen to concerns from | :05:44. | :05:45. | |
colleagues and will come forward with proposals in the Autumn | :05:46. | :05:48. | |
Statement to achieve the goal of reforming tax credits, saving money | :05:49. | :05:52. | |
needed to secure our economy while at the same time helping in the | :05:53. | :05:57. | |
transition to these changes. In that context, I fear today I'm not | :05:58. | :06:00. | |
telling the house too much that is new. But I respect the reasons that | :06:01. | :06:04. | |
Honourable members have wished to bring forward this to bait. I and | :06:05. | :06:09. | |
others have spoken at length in the past about how tax credits went out | :06:10. | :06:18. | |
of control, how costs trebled and ended up costing ?30 billion. And | :06:19. | :06:22. | |
about how the level of in work poverty rose over that same period. | :06:23. | :06:26. | |
Mr Speaker, reforming welfare as part of the new settlement we are | :06:27. | :06:30. | |
offering working Britain. Fundamentally, we have a choice | :06:31. | :06:33. | |
about how people should be paid. On lower wages topped up why high state | :06:34. | :06:39. | |
benefits, or high wages taking home more wages, and topped up by less. | :06:40. | :06:44. | |
We believe in rebalancing the economy so that it is the boy who | :06:45. | :06:49. | |
provides decent wages for the employees. -- it is the employer. | :06:50. | :06:55. | |
The national living wage will mean over ?5,000 more gross full-time pay | :06:56. | :07:02. | |
for someone on today's minimum wage. With record employment, although | :07:03. | :07:06. | |
inflation, rising wages, a rising standard of living, this is the time | :07:07. | :07:10. | |
to be making structural reform. Mr Speaker, our record on helping | :07:11. | :07:14. | |
working people stretches far beyond this. Since 2010, our mission has | :07:15. | :07:20. | |
been to get wages up, tax down and welfare under control. The best | :07:21. | :07:24. | |
route out of poverty is work. So we have created conditions for 1,000 | :07:25. | :07:29. | |
new jobs to be created every day. 2 million since 2010. And we have | :07:30. | :07:33. | |
plans that 3 million more apprenticeships. We have increased | :07:34. | :07:35. | |
the tax-free personal allowance radically, we are doubling our | :07:36. | :07:40. | |
childcare offer with three or four-year-old families. We have | :07:41. | :07:46. | |
protected spending on our schools and National Health Service. As the | :07:47. | :07:50. | |
prime ministers said yesterday, we remain committed to the vision of a | :07:51. | :07:53. | |
high pay, low tax, lower welfare society. We believe the route to | :07:54. | :08:00. | |
ensuring everyone is better off is to get the finances back in balance, | :08:01. | :08:04. | |
keep growing the economy and jobs, keep inflation low, keep cutting | :08:05. | :08:08. | |
peoples taxes and introduce the national living wage. A number of | :08:09. | :08:13. | |
Honourable members have asked about distributional analysis the effect | :08:14. | :08:27. | |
of these cuts. The burden is spread proportionately, albeit with a tax | :08:28. | :08:31. | |
burden at the top of the distribution. The Right Honourable | :08:32. | :08:34. | |
member for Birkenhead asked specifically about the data that had | :08:35. | :08:38. | |
been available on what could be made available. The government has | :08:39. | :08:44. | |
provided analysis about the overall distributional effect since 2010. | :08:45. | :08:54. | |
That does not include the National minimum wage. He also asked about | :08:55. | :09:00. | |
the interaction with the income tax personal allowance. As the Prime | :09:01. | :09:04. | |
Minister said, with the improving labour market, additional childcare | :09:05. | :09:08. | |
support and the introduction of the national living wage, more people | :09:09. | :09:10. | |
would come into income tax and so would benefit from those raised | :09:11. | :09:16. | |
thresholds. He also asked, as did my honourable friend from Holt on price | :09:17. | :09:25. | |
and Howden, about the key subject of the rate at which money is taken | :09:26. | :09:30. | |
away. I agree with the three Right Honourable gentleman on the | :09:31. | :09:33. | |
importance of these threads and the effect they have on work incentives | :09:34. | :09:38. | |
and I acknowledge the proposals did imply a High Peak margin withdrawal | :09:39. | :09:43. | |
rate for people earning above the personal allowance and on the tax | :09:44. | :09:46. | |
credits and housing benefit tapers at the same time but it is also | :09:47. | :09:51. | |
important to remember that compares to a top rate today which is only | :09:52. | :09:55. | |
two percentage points different. I'm afraid it is true that high marginal | :09:56. | :09:59. | |
withdrawal rates have long been a feature of the UK benefit system and | :10:00. | :10:04. | |
most welfare systems in developed nations. As they will both know very | :10:05. | :10:09. | |
well, the key reform in this area is universal credit that this | :10:10. | :10:12. | |
government has introduced, which sympathised the system by merging | :10:13. | :10:17. | |
six benefits into one and moves the hours thresholds to various bikes at | :10:18. | :10:26. | |
16, 24, and 30 hours. -- to various spikes. I will give way. Can I | :10:27. | :10:33. | |
genuinely welcome the broad tone of the Honourable gentleman's | :10:34. | :10:36. | |
contribution, and the fact he says the government is in listening mode. | :10:37. | :10:41. | |
But from his response, it seems that there is no impact. Can I ask for | :10:42. | :10:48. | |
his response to one specific from the House of Commons library 's own | :10:49. | :10:50. | |
statistics, and it goes to the heart of the debate, that a family with | :10:51. | :10:56. | |
two children after all the other changes he has talked about, a | :10:57. | :11:04. | |
family with two children and ?20,420 will lose ?1233 and ?20,420 will | :11:05. | :11:12. | |
lose does he not believe there will be impacts on these families? Mr | :11:13. | :11:17. | |
Speaker, none of the third-party analysis that has been done takes | :11:18. | :11:21. | |
into account all of the front changes and different elements of | :11:22. | :11:25. | |
support that are coming in. Of course, it is the case that | :11:26. | :11:27. | |
depending on exactly how many earners there are, the age of the | :11:28. | :11:32. | |
children, there will be different impacts from any proposal. But the | :11:33. | :11:37. | |
points I have made today is that as we have been discussing, the | :11:38. | :11:41. | |
government is in listening mode. The Chancellor has said he will come | :11:42. | :11:46. | |
back at the Autumn Statement to be able to say more. The question of | :11:47. | :11:50. | |
childcare came up more than once, including most recently in the | :11:51. | :11:55. | |
summing up from the honourable lady. There is a review going on on the | :11:56. | :12:00. | |
cost reimbursement for childcare providers, and it is important that | :12:01. | :12:05. | |
it must be a sustainable model. The question also came up from the | :12:06. | :12:13. | |
honourable gentleman from East Antrim about the devolved | :12:14. | :12:17. | |
administration Pramac. It is the case the 30 our offer is an England | :12:18. | :12:23. | |
offer but there are and consequential is that go with that, | :12:24. | :12:27. | |
and it is up to the devolved administration to proceed in the way | :12:28. | :12:31. | |
they believe it is right. In the Scottish government, although I am | :12:32. | :12:34. | |
happy to be corrected by members from the SNP, I believe the Scottish | :12:35. | :12:37. | |
government has committed to bringing forward 30 hours from 2020. And I | :12:38. | :12:41. | |
wonder if they might do that soon. There are also questions related to | :12:42. | :12:53. | |
Scotland, but they were batted away. About what the ability of this gosh | :12:54. | :12:57. | |
government might be to pursue their own course on tax and benefits. -- | :12:58. | :13:03. | |
the Scottish Government. As early as 2017, they will be able to set rates | :13:04. | :13:08. | |
and bounds for income tax on earnings. That is clear in the | :13:09. | :13:13. | |
Scotland Bill. The bill is also clear that they can top up benefits | :13:14. | :13:19. | |
and make discretionary payments to claimants. The Secretary of State | :13:20. | :13:28. | |
cannot withhold consent for them to do this. I am happy to give way for | :13:29. | :13:34. | |
him to confirm what their intentions are. I am grateful. We have | :13:35. | :13:41. | |
demonstrated that the Scottish Government has mitigated some of the | :13:42. | :13:45. | |
worst effect of the welfare cuts over the last few years. ?100 | :13:46. | :13:50. | |
million in order to offset the bedroom tax. We want to protect the | :13:51. | :13:54. | |
people of Scotland, but in order to do that we need the people of | :13:55. | :13:57. | |
Scotland, but in order to do that we need to be powerless to do for power | :13:58. | :14:04. | |
over our economy, taxation and Social Security. Give us to do it, | :14:05. | :14:09. | |
we will protect the people of Scotland that West Minister is | :14:10. | :14:16. | |
letting down! It is a line that they have used for quite some time. I | :14:17. | :14:20. | |
don't know how long they will be able to continue. The reforms have | :14:21. | :14:25. | |
been discussed in this house a number of times and voted on by the | :14:26. | :14:29. | |
whole house on five occasions. The case for change is clear. This is | :14:30. | :14:34. | |
not just on the school grounds, but also because the Labour way is not | :14:35. | :14:45. | |
the way for stability. But we do acknowledge the concerns expressed. | :14:46. | :14:50. | |
The Chancellor said we would listen and that is precisely what we intend | :14:51. | :14:55. | |
to do. He believes and I believe that we can achieve the same goal of | :14:56. | :15:00. | |
reforming tax credits, saving the money we need to save to secure our | :15:01. | :15:05. | |
economy while helping in the transition. That is what he will set | :15:06. | :15:10. | |
out in the Autumn Statement. Because we are determined to deliver that | :15:11. | :15:15. | |
lover welfare, higher wage economy that we were elected to deliver. | :15:16. | :15:19. | |
That the British people want to see and that working Britain deserves. | :15:20. | :15:29. | |
Mr Speaker, I thank again the committee for allowing us to stay | :15:30. | :15:32. | |
for what has been a fine debate, not just because of the eloquence, but | :15:33. | :15:39. | |
because there is a very clear message from all parts of the house | :15:40. | :15:43. | |
to the government. Nobody today has spoken in favour of these changes | :15:44. | :15:48. | |
coming into force next April. And if they do not come into force next | :15:49. | :15:53. | |
April, then it gives the government a good period of time to think | :15:54. | :15:58. | |
seriously about how tax credits are reformed. And because I think that | :15:59. | :16:02. | |
message is so important that we get that over to the Chancellor and his | :16:03. | :16:06. | |
thinking, I hope the house will divide. Order, the question is the | :16:07. | :16:21. | |
motion as on the order paper. Those who see aye. Those who see no. | :16:22. | :16:50. | |
Division, clear the lobby. -- see. -- say. | :16:51. | :18:36. | |
The question is in the motion as on the order paper. Those who see | :18:37. | :18:38. |