29/10/2015 House of Commons


29/10/2015

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Hello and welcome to BBC Parliament's live coverage from the

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House of Commons. In an hour the leader of the house Chris Grayling

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and will announce the forthcoming business in the chamber and take

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questions from backbenchers. The main business is a backbench

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business debate on the effects of the government proposed reforms to

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tax credits. Remember to join me for a round-up of the day in both Houses

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of Parliament at 11pm this evening. First, we have questions to the

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Transport Secretary Patrick McLoughlin and his team of

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ministers. Order. Transport the London bill,

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Lords revival motion. I beg to move. Motion to be taken what day? Very

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appropriately Thursday, the 5th of November. Thursday the 5th of

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November. Order, questions to the Secretary of State the transport.

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Question number one. The current difference between laboratory

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testing and real emissions. The agreement we secured in Brussels to

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introduce real-world testing in 2017 is an important milestone. We will

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continue to press the EU for a comprehensive approach on emissions

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testing that restores confidence and the livers climb it -- and delivers

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climb it objectives -- climate. The UK's managing director said the

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target of 2016 might not be deliverable. How can he assure the

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house that this can be achieved by 2016? Volkswagen have acted

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disgracefully in this whole episode. I will be looking to them

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to ensure they live up to the expectations they promised

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originally and will be working to make sure that happens. Does he

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agree that Volkswagen has shattered trust in motor vehicle testing and

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we need to move at pace to real-world testing to restore

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confidence in the public? I do agree. I think both when I appeared

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before the Select Committee, just a few weeks ago, I made that position

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abundantly clear. I think progress made yesterday is progress made

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yesterday is progressing the right direction. The still unfolding

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scandal of Volkswagen has lifted the lid on the more widespread problem

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about emissions testing which was known about for a long time. Why

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didn't the Department act sooner in doing something about it? It has two

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B said that's the honourable lady says it was known about a long time,

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but in truth if one looks at the amount of diesel sold in 2001, it

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was 460,000, 17%. In 2009, -- 815,000, if it was known about for

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some time it is not this government but the previous that is culpable.

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The new London taxi is zero. I have travelled in one of those taxes.

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That is part of the answer we will continue to support our programme of

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support for some 1.2 million cars have been affected across the UK and

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it is important to be mindful of drivers, they are facing a higher

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road tax. Does he agree the financial implications should we

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give in to Volkswagen and Audi for this disgraceful thing that

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happened? I do not think there will be an increase in taxes, we have

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made that clear. But it is something that VW will have to addressing

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course. Is the reality, though, that Biddestone's statements are leaving

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motorists concerned about air quality number wise. Can he clear

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the air on one point and that is what happened at the EU technical

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committee yesterday. It was not just about setting a timetable for new

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cars to conform with existing emissions, did it not also involve

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permission to breach those limits by 50%, that being open ended

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permission, and isn't that what the UK representative voted for? What

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was important was because agreement for real-world emissions testing

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across Europe and this was something... This has been objected

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to the pass. We pressed for it and I am pleased we achieved it. He said

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it is not as much or as fast as he would like, but I would say we have

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made more progress in the six months of this new Conservative government

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than ever made in the last government. The government remains

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committed to delivering the vital benefits these projects will provide

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to passengers as part of the replanning of this programme I

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expect Sir Peter Hendy to ensure schemes deliver value for money.

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With the minister agree the tripling of costs to over 2.5 billion pounds

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is breathtaking and will he take the time to learn lessons from Scotland

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where major capital projects are coming in on time and budget largely

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as a result of proper planning and good contract negotiation, so

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further public money is not thrown away in this cavalier fashion? I am

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always willing to learn lessons from wherever they are valid, be that

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Scotland or anywhere else and I will not look for advice on providing

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tram systems! What I would say is some of these programmes and the

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honourable lady is a member of the PAC, and therefore was in the

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position of hearing evidence by Mark Carne and the Permanent Secretary

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and some have run over budget that they are huge schemes, very

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important schemes, and making the railway system modern for the 21st

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century is important. As regards value for money of the great Western

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mainline, would he agree electrification is one factor that

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makes the reopening of the station a more valuable project that needs to

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remain high on the agenda. I am sure it will remain high on the agenda as

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long as my honourable friend presses for it.

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I look forward to discussing it with my honourable friend and see if we

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can help my honourable friend get what she wishes. Electrification of

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the great Western and Valley lines are two sides of the same coin, with

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both meaning a great deal to the South Wales economy. What

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discussions as he had with the Welsh Government counterpart on the

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delivery date for electrification of the Valley lines? We made money

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available to the Welsh Assembly, 125 million. I have met with Edwina Hart

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and discuss the programme and I am in contact with my right honourable

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friend the Secretary of State for Wales and it is a matter for the

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assembly to come forward with their plans. I congratulate him for

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confirmation the Midland Main line will be electrified to Kettering by

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2019. Can he assure the house the lessons learned from the great

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Western electrification will be applied to that line so it can be

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delivered quickly and efficiently? A neat body swerve to ensure his

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question is in order. The textbook example to colleagues!

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Was that the answer, Mr Speaker?! I have now forgotten what the

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question was! Mr Speaker, I certainly agree with

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my honourable friend. It is very important to re-establish the

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Midland mainline electrification. It is a line I use regularly. Lessons

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need to be learned. Work had already started. What was important about

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the plan that is being developed is that we look at the whole line

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development because there are certain things on the Midland Main

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line that can be done to increase speed and that is important as well.

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One reason for extra cost is compensation. Is it in the public

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interest to publish those payments, and those spent on infrastructure

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not those lining the pockets of shareholders? We make the best we

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can with the huge investment we put into railways and I am proud of the

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improvements that have taken place on the great Western.

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Electrification is part of it. Completion of the station and the

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flyover that happens so the line is no longer held up by freight trains

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has been an improvement and serves his those in the south-west

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incredibly well. Question three, if you please, Mr Speaker. Network Rail

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assesses risks on crossings. The UK has the best level crossing safety

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record in the EU. There is work to reduce that risk still further.

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What a lot of waffle after the Beech Hill tragedy in 2012 Network Rail

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said it would get rid of all level crossings in Bassetlaw on the East

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Coast mainline. The public consultation on the schemes in order

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to ensure it had taken place. And what has happened is the money has

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been pulled. Will the minister meet Network Rail along with the

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Chancellor to ensure that money is put back in. It is good for

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business, the economy and safety and good for the people of Bassetlaw.

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The honourable gentleman had the tragic accident that resulted in a

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loss of life. After that the rail accident investigation board made

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clear recommendations so that accident could not happen again and

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I am told they have been implemented. He is referring to the

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plan to close the 73 crossings on the East Coast mainline, and that

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work has been progress. You cannot just shut off communities who rely

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on those. He shakes his head. He should be in my job and have people

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campaigning to keep crossings open. The work will happen and it is right

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to focus on this and we will continue to fund the work, there is

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no shortage of money for this and money will be spent on making the

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crossing safer. We have committed to setting out the

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government's plan for the HS2 phase to route and update the House before

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the end of the year. I thank him for that answer and for the times he and

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his officials have spent with me on the link. The initial justification

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of the link was the depot in Wigan. That will not now be the. The only

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justification that remains is a ten minute journey time saving two

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trains north of Wigan. Will he confirm that if that stand-alone

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link goes ahead it will be subject to a separate business case? We are

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considering all of the recommendations made by Sir David

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Higgins and his report, and he believes that the link to the West

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Coast Main line is necessary, sooner rather than later. The alternative,

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which would mean linking into the West Coast mainline, would mean

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upgrading it to take these additional services, which can be

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costly and disrupt, and would incur those dreadful words, replacement

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bus services. Can I beg the team for bus services. Can I beg the team for

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the moment of sanity in terms of HS2. Isn't it time, where we know

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the latest evaluation says the cost will rise to ?116 billion, in a

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country that can't even keep its National Health service running,

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isn't it about time we look at this in a ruthless way, speak to Lord

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Adonis, to get his act together. He calls himself the Godfather of HS2.

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Let's invest in things that really work. That is not what huge was

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saying when he was Secretary of State. -- what he was saying. I am

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pleased Lord Adonis is engaging with the government. I think he needs to

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ask themselves what are the costs of not progressing HS2 because it is

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about the capacity and the great cities of the North, who are crying

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out for the additional capacity and the wealth it will bring. HS2 should

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have started and then or. On phase two, can I also appeal for sanity

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and ask them to review the hybrid Bill process and the cruel and

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unfair compensation scheme. The hybrid Bill process for phase one

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has been convoluted, and painful. Not just for the MPs on the

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committee but for the people affected by the project. It is

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ironic we should be using such a snail-like process for something

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that is supposed to be high-speed. It is not fit for purpose, and we

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should be modernising it. I would pay tribute to the members who have

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doggedly sat on the hybrid Bill committee and listened to petitions

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brought before them in an admirable way. Many petitions did not reach

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the committee because we reached agreement before it. As far as

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building it from the North first, it would still end in London, which the

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end it started the capacity is between Birmingham and London, as a

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matter of urgency. Can the proposals be discussed to mitigate the impact

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of HS2 on local residents and businesses in and around Donington?

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We have not finalised that right, so we will be getting the House and up

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date before the end of the year, when it would be appropriate to meet

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with a number of communities. I will answer this question together with

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number 11. We have made significant progress on increasing access. By

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the end of the year we expect around 75% of rail journeys to start or end

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at a step three station, and the programme will deliver 100 and 50 --

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150 step three station 's. I would like to thank the Minister. Every

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member of the House would want to congratulate the friends of my local

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station for the massive investment in the station, meaning it will be

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totally accessible for disabled people from the end of next month.

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That many of us are concerned about the slashing in funding by 42% of

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very basic, providing ramps and very basic, providing ramps and

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this? Why have they not changed this? Why have they not changed

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their mind? I am aware of the new footbridge at the station that will

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vastly improve facilities. I do not recognise what she says. The

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and we are building upon the success and we are building upon the success

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of it launched by the previous government. 1200 stations

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benefited from the smaller scale benefited from the smaller

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improvements, and to build on the improvements, and to build on the

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success ?160 million of additional success ?160 million of additional

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will extend the scheme to a further will extend the scheme to a further

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68 stations. I'm sure you will join 68 stations. I'm sure you will join

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University on its new Chancellor, University on its new Chancellor,

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Taney Grey Thompson. She has to get herself up the impossibly deep

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station, which Network Rail say they cannot do. Is this is what we should

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expect by slashing the grant by 40%? The University will benefit from her

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involvement. The bottom line is that the Department for Transport, and I

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will look into this. The Department for Transport is committed, and we

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are backing this programme, rolling out more disability access onto the

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buses. This is a real measure of success on the programme has

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generated a positive response. If we look at the findings of research at

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stations which have benefited from the programme, those passengers with

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physical impairment say they have a better travelling experience as a

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result, going up considerably for people with wheelchairs. The

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Minister will know that around 60% of disabled people live in a

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household without a car, and disabled people use buses 20% more

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than others. He will also know that 70% of local authorities have cut

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funding since 2010, and more are on the way. Does he really understand

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what impact these cuts will have on disabled people, and what proper

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assessment has he done on the potential impact? May I welcome him

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to his place. I am acutely aware of how important buses are afforded

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disabled people and also -- buses are for disabled people, and also

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others. Of course the implications for all bus users are considered

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when planning budgets. I will answer this with questions 14 and 16. Since

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2010 my Department has overseen the successful delivery of 50 miles of

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electrified track. Construction is under way between Ealing Broadway

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and Acton Main line, to remove the slow-moving freight trains of the

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lines to enable high-frequency electric Crossrail trains. From

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Paddington and through her constituency to Bristol, on the

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Cardiff, Network Rail have installed a quarter of 14,000 Poles needed to

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turn the centuries-old great Western line into a railway fit for the 21st

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century. Can you ensure that the century. Can you ensure that the

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electrification goes ahead on time, along with other improvements, to

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deliver benefits quickly, as my constituents cannot wait until 2019

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and the start of Crossrail. I am sorry they cannot wait, they waited

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for 13 years between 1997 and 2010, with nothing happening. Teesside has

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had a hammering in this place over the past several weeks. But we are

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resilient bunch, illustrated by the victory at Old Trafford last night!

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We are top of the league on the elect of the nation task force list

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from Northallerton to Middlesbrough. When might we see progress on this?

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Can I congratulate him because I am also a football supporter,

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supporting Derby County, so he has done incredibly well as far as that

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is concerned. He makes a fair point, there is a huge amount of steel used

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by Network Rail, and I know that by Network Rail, and I know that

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helps his own constituency as well. I will look into the point he makes.

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The Chancellor visited North Wales in July and said, he will look at

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the case for electrification of the North line from Crewe to Wales. Can

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fine for me what look at -- can he defined for me what look at means?

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During 13 years, ten miles was achieved! So we will certainly look

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at this. It is the way to go forward as far as railways are concerned. I

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want to look at that along with other plans for CP six. As I

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witnessed again last Monday, travellers going between Bolton and

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Manchester at the quickly squashed like sardines. Can the Secretary of

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State update the House as to how the engineering works on the line are

:24:33.:24:40.

coming along, particularly as far as boring the tunnel? He is right as to

:24:41.:24:48.

what we need to do, and I was going to refer to Farnworth tunnel. It has

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had problems but has been completed. That will help to increase the

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capacity on the line, and the changes he is calling for, the

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increased capacity he is wanting is increased capacity he is wanting is

:24:59.:25:05.

going to take place and I would like to pay tribute to all those people

:25:06.:25:12.

who worked tirelessly to do the tunnel, which is coming in on time.

:25:13.:25:23.

As most of the mainline will go on to the next period, can he make sure

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the line is extended to improve services? He took evidence a few

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weeks ago from the chief executive of Network Rail, and the pointy

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makes about looking at the lines in total is important, and I will be in

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mind his comments. I very much welcome the news that the

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electrification of the trans-Pennine route is now full on track. -- a

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contract. What are the new, improved benefits that it will bring the

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looking substantial improvements as looking substantial improvements as

:26:09.:26:23.

main cities in the North, main cities in the North,

:26:24.:26:55.

Manchester, Leeds and Sheffield and Newcastle are concerned, and we will

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bring more seats, more capacity, and it is

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Is Network Rail to blame for the delay? Is it a symptom of the

:27:23.:27:29.

privatised structure of our railway that causes the kind of

:27:30.:27:34.

fragmentation that makes disasters like this inevitable? Can I stop my

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welcoming him to his position. When he talks about privatised -- I

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start. This is an example of where somebody who has not held

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ministerial office can rightly forget everything that happened in

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the past. I remember the Labour candidate for the Mayor of London

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next year is said that one reason, we are able to invest record sums is

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the revenue rail franchises bring in and premiums they pay. We are seeing

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record investment in railways because of the way we are currently

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running it. At the time it was nationalised we saw a declining

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railway, a useless railway, not fit for purpose, something which the

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party opposite wants to go back to. Question number seven.

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Mr Speaker, I regularly meet with senior officials of Network Rail to

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discuss key issues facing the company and recent meetings have

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focused on this beta Hendy review and finance programme. Will he also

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reiterate the commitment to the recommendation of the great Eastern

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mainline task force that rings benefits to all counties and will he

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ensure Network Rail delivers the necessary improvement? Yes, I am

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glad to say we have been able to issue the invitation to tender as

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far as the East Anglia franchise is concerned, something she has been

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persistently should do. In seeing that we get services to Norwich in

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90 minutes and Ipswich in 60 and that forms part of that tender. She

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is right about the other improvements we need to look at and

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she can take my assurance I will raise those with Sir Peter Hendy.

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What recent discussions has he had with Network Rail regarding the

:29:38.:29:41.

electrification of the Liverpool and Manchester line passes through

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witness in Warrington? I think I need more direction as to the

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question. There has been electrification between Liverpool

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and Manchester and that is welcome and we have electric trains running

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on that and soon there will be more running on that line. If he has a

:29:58.:30:01.

more specific point perhaps he would like to write to me. During the

:30:02.:30:07.

great storms in the West Country in 2014 we found our mainline route to

:30:08.:30:11.

Cornwall floating in the sea. Can I ask him whether the peninsula

:30:12.:30:18.

proposals, including the Okehampton link, whether they have come up with

:30:19.:30:26.

any conclusions because it would add benefits to our economic potential

:30:27.:30:32.

in Cornwall. I do remember this and I also remember the valiant way in

:30:33.:30:36.

which Network Rail restored that link. They did an exceptional job in

:30:37.:30:42.

difficult situations. Even at this stage I would like to add my thanks

:30:43.:30:46.

to all who worked on that scheme in restoring that link. He is right

:30:47.:30:51.

about the task force the Peninsula group have brought forward and we

:30:52.:30:55.

are looking at their report and will have more to say on it once the

:30:56.:31:03.

planning of CP five is undertaken. The welcome creation of the national

:31:04.:31:08.

academy for a rail will help plug some of the skills shortage behind

:31:09.:31:13.

many of the delays in electrification. What concerns does

:31:14.:31:17.

he have earned does he share my concern the proposed 40% court to

:31:18.:31:22.

this budget will undermine the ability of the Academy to deliver on

:31:23.:31:28.

skills shortages? He is right about the academy at Northampton. I was

:31:29.:31:32.

there some months ago and the minister from rail I it a few weeks

:31:33.:31:36.

ago and it will play an important role in skills. It is up skilling

:31:37.:31:44.

about what the whole industry has to do and bring it together and that is

:31:45.:31:49.

one reason I asked the chairman of Crossrail to coordinate across the

:31:50.:31:55.

transport sector about apprenticeships. Number eight, Mr

:31:56.:32:04.

Speaker. On the 21st of August my right honourable friend the

:32:05.:32:08.

Secretary of State announced the appointment of Terry Morgan the

:32:09.:32:12.

chair of Crossrail to develop a transport and infrastructure skills

:32:13.:32:16.

strategy. It will help ensure the industry has the right people and

:32:17.:32:21.

skills to deliver the programme of transport infrastructure and

:32:22.:32:27.

investment. I was recently fortunate to visit a college in basalt and

:32:28.:32:32.

that has created a unique partnership between engineering and

:32:33.:32:36.

construction companies to train the next generation of technicians. Can

:32:37.:32:40.

I invite him to look at their model and perhaps visit with a view to

:32:41.:32:46.

widening the range of opportunities across the whole country to give

:32:47.:32:50.

young people the skills to deliver our plans? I will look at the

:32:51.:32:56.

approach used by them and would like to visit. It is vital colleges and

:32:57.:33:02.

universities work with employers to get the skills industry needs. It is

:33:03.:33:07.

crucial in transport as more people are required. I would highlight the

:33:08.:33:12.

work of the college to Terry Morgan as he develops the strategy. An

:33:13.:33:17.

important element of the transport infrastructure is the road haulage

:33:18.:33:26.

industry that helps the economy and the government. Driving up exports.

:33:27.:33:32.

They reported a recruitment shortage of 54,000 in drivers which is likely

:33:33.:33:37.

to increase because of the ageing population. What plans and

:33:38.:33:42.

discussions has the minister had to ensure young people are encouraged

:33:43.:33:49.

to take up opportunities? The industry has a responsibility to

:33:50.:33:54.

bring new people in and I am aware of the recruitment challenges. There

:33:55.:33:58.

is a retention issue. I have met with the industry and will continue

:33:59.:34:02.

to do so. It is important this industry brings people into it. If

:34:03.:34:07.

we did not have it performing to a high level of the country would

:34:08.:34:10.

grind to a halt in a couple of days. Number nine, Mr Speaker. The

:34:11.:34:17.

Chancellor announced in the 2015 budget report the government will

:34:18.:34:21.

commission a study into the possibility of reopening Plymouth

:34:22.:34:24.

airport. I am keen to determine the final form of the study and how best

:34:25.:34:31.

to take it forward. As he knows Plymouth will be the focus of global

:34:32.:34:36.

attention in relation to in five years' time Mayflower 2020, when the

:34:37.:34:42.

Mayflower set sail to found the American colonies. Does he agree

:34:43.:34:47.

that to be a major tourism area we need to make sure people can get to

:34:48.:34:53.

Plymouth which means improved roads and railways and air links? That new

:34:54.:35:00.

colony worked out quite well, certainly! He is right that

:35:01.:35:11.

investment in this is vital to the south-west which is why we have

:35:12.:35:15.

committed ?31 million on the great Western route. We heard about the

:35:16.:35:19.

?40 million to fix Dawlish and the long overdue investment on the 830

:35:20.:35:26.

and a 303 which has long been a scourge of tourists and business

:35:27.:35:30.

people driving to the south-west -- a 30. Recent improvements to

:35:31.:35:40.

security measures include fencing, additional security guards, dogs,

:35:41.:35:43.

improved CCTV including thermal imaging. In addition, the French

:35:44.:35:48.

government has committed significant police resources to Calais. On a

:35:49.:35:57.

summer business tour I met exporters having trouble getting goods into

:35:58.:36:02.

Europe. Can he assure me and reddish businesses his department is doing

:36:03.:36:05.

everything he can to make sure my businesses prosper in the future?

:36:06.:36:12.

The channel link is vitally important to the whole UK economy

:36:13.:36:16.

and particularly the haulage industry. I was at Folkestone and

:36:17.:36:19.

saw some of the problems first-hand, in particular issues regarding

:36:20.:36:25.

just-in-time delivery of parts to the motor industry for steel rails

:36:26.:36:31.

produced in Scunthorpe which are exported to the continent and

:36:32.:36:35.

lobster produced in my constituency that travels in trucks to France and

:36:36.:36:44.

Spain. This summer the 23 my constituency was close for 32 days.

:36:45.:36:49.

I'm grateful for the attention the ministerial team is giving to this

:36:50.:36:54.

problem. Can he update me on the progress to avoid a repeat of the

:36:55.:37:00.

closures this summer next summer. The key to preventing a recurrence

:37:01.:37:05.

of the problems this summer is sorting out issues in France. I am

:37:06.:37:12.

pleased to say the industrial dispute has been solved and we do

:37:13.:37:16.

not have that additional problem. The government put in place a

:37:17.:37:19.

contingency plan at Manston. It would have been there to relieve the

:37:20.:37:23.

problem. It is important to look at how we can improve the situation

:37:24.:37:26.

where we have disruption on the channel. Thank you Mr Speaker. I

:37:27.:37:44.

have no representations on this topic. I look forward to a

:37:45.:37:48.

productive engagement with all devolved administrations on this

:37:49.:37:54.

subject. The minister may not be aware that part of the expensive

:37:55.:38:01.

lobbying campaign undertaken on both sides, passengers using Scottish

:38:02.:38:08.

airports are deliberately targeted. If the decision goes the wrong way

:38:09.:38:12.

Scotland will be cut off from the rest of the world, it has been said,

:38:13.:38:17.

which is scaremongering and will not happen. Depending on how the

:38:18.:38:21.

decision goes, the potential of bringing benefit to Scotland and the

:38:22.:38:24.

potential to cause damage to Scotland. Will he give an assurance

:38:25.:38:31.

that when the time comes he will make representations to make sure

:38:32.:38:34.

all members of this House play an equal part in the debate? The rest

:38:35.:38:40.

-- the representations I have received underlines the importance

:38:41.:38:45.

is of having good connectivity to international routes and that may be

:38:46.:38:49.

through an improved additional runway capacity in the south-east.

:38:50.:38:55.

We have been helped to that extent by giving help to the Dundee service

:38:56.:38:59.

to allow passengers reach the capital. Would he agree that

:39:00.:39:11.

expanding connectivity with the Scottish airports is one of the best

:39:12.:39:14.

things we can do to strengthen the United Kingdom? The government will

:39:15.:39:21.

be making an announcement in due course with response to the report

:39:22.:39:32.

and it would be premature to comment on this stage. On the subject of

:39:33.:39:43.

regional airports, agreeing about the commercial and economic and

:39:44.:39:46.

social connectivity required, he said, and his words were, the slots

:39:47.:39:50.

needed by Scottish airports and other airports that have lost them.

:39:51.:39:55.

I hope we can address that. I want to reflect on that while considering

:39:56.:39:59.

the whole report. Does he still agree about the development's

:40:00.:40:04.

importance to Scotland's regional airports such as Dundee and has

:40:05.:40:08.

there been progress on his thinking about root development and public

:40:09.:40:13.

service obligations? I have always made it clear how important I view

:40:14.:40:19.

the local airports. The regional international airports and how big a

:40:20.:40:23.

part they play in the economic development of areas particularly in

:40:24.:40:28.

Scotland. We need to look at aviation as a whole but the

:40:29.:40:31.

representations I get is how important it is to get connectivity,

:40:32.:40:36.

whether through Amsterdam, Paris, Frankfurt, or indeed to slots

:40:37.:40:40.

available in the south-east. Given this recognition and importance, can

:40:41.:40:46.

he confirm any decision on the development of a third runway at

:40:47.:40:50.

Heathrow or development at Gatwick would not have to go through an

:40:51.:40:55.

additional stage in the legislative process, a veto on Scottish MPs, as

:40:56.:41:00.

suggested by the honourable member for Milton Keynes, and will... What

:41:01.:41:11.

will he do to make sure this subject will be delivered from evil? It is

:41:12.:41:15.

premature to enter that discussion. I am always in favour of jumping

:41:16.:41:24.

one's fences when one reaches them. Could the minister tell me how many

:41:25.:41:30.

of the 47 recommendations ignored by the Airport Commission would have

:41:31.:41:35.

benefited Scotland? And whether those recommendations would have

:41:36.:41:38.

increased the domestic flights on likely option at Heathrow which

:41:39.:41:39.

would decrease them. One of the concerns I have picked up

:41:40.:41:50.

around the country outside the south-east is a pressure for slots

:41:51.:41:55.

at Heathrow and Gatwick at peak times means there are always

:41:56.:41:59.

concerns about those connecting flights coming in from other parts

:42:00.:42:04.

of the country, which we need to -- we are very well aware of Anthony to

:42:05.:42:14.

address. -- need to address. We're making great progress in upgrading

:42:15.:42:20.

the railway in the south-west, including delivering new trains to

:42:21.:42:21.

carry more people on faster journeys carry more people on faster journeys

:42:22.:42:26.

and improving resilience to make sure the region can stay connect it.

:42:27.:42:33.

The task force recently published its interim report on a 20 year plan

:42:34.:42:39.

for Devon and will. Can he confirm that the primary aim is to secure

:42:40.:42:46.

the resilience to South Devon, and any other options will be

:42:47.:42:49.

additional, not alternatives. The other options would indeed be

:42:50.:42:58.

impact will overruns and the cost impact will overruns and the cost

:42:59.:43:02.

have on the investment she has mentioned? -- the overruns. Can he

:43:03.:43:18.

repeat the question? She was chuntering to her colleague!

:43:19.:43:28.

Scandalous disregard! What impact will overruns and the cost have on

:43:29.:43:31.

the investment she has mentioned? Apologies. I was misspeaking on the

:43:32.:43:38.

double-check. The roots will be double-check. The roots will be

:43:39.:43:44.

additional, not alternative. He knows that there is an enormous

:43:45.:43:47.

south-west, in terms of Brazilians, south-west, in terms of Brazilians,

:43:48.:43:55.

they hundreds new trains. I wish he would get behind the attempt to the

:43:56.:43:58.

government to connect the vital region, rather than keep shouting

:43:59.:44:10.

about things. He will be delighted to know that the first section of

:44:11.:44:15.

the rail line was opened this Monday, allowing people to travel

:44:16.:44:26.

from Oxford to London Marylebone. I welcome this new service running

:44:27.:44:27.

along the first stage. It is a very along the first stage. It is a very

:44:28.:44:33.

strong business case, as is the project as a wall. Will she do

:44:34.:44:36.

everything to make sure the Hindu review does not delay this? Yes, and

:44:37.:44:44.

we will know more about it in the next few weeks. I want to pay

:44:45.:44:46.

tribute to these MPs who have left us in no doubt of the importance of

:44:47.:44:52.

this East to West rail link. Topical questions. I have seen first hand

:44:53.:45:06.

the work Network Rail are doing, including a ?44 million regeneration

:45:07.:45:08.

of Manchester Victoria station, making it a station Manchester can

:45:09.:45:13.

be proud of. It was voted the worst station in Britain in 2009. The

:45:14.:45:17.

rebuilding of Birmingham new Street station, transforming it. And the

:45:18.:45:26.

reconstruction of bandwidth tunnel, allowing trains to travel from

:45:27.:45:28.

Manchester to Bolton. This will allow diesel trains to be used in

:45:29.:45:33.

the north-west, providing 30,000 more seats per week. This will help

:45:34.:45:40.

to build a Northern Powerhouse. I will not refer to Sheffield

:45:41.:45:44.

you will be pleased to hear. I will you will be pleased to hear. I will

:45:45.:45:49.

refer to Sir David Higgins' report, where he described transport links

:45:50.:45:53.

between Sheffield and Manchester as a matter of national concern. Will

:45:54.:45:59.

he give serious consideration that HSV should link Manchester and

:46:00.:46:08.

Sheffield, and secondly that consideration is given to a route

:46:09.:46:12.

under the Pennines as the only serious way to link Sheffield and

:46:13.:46:15.

Manchester without damaging the Manchester without damaging the

:46:16.:46:24.

national park? Harsh HS3. Can I agree that more needs to be done to

:46:25.:46:35.

improve the links between Sheffield and Manchester, and I hope that when

:46:36.:47:03.

we announced the new franchise for trans-Pennine and Northern Rail,

:47:04.:47:03.

will go some way to meet the will go some way to meet the

:47:04.:47:06.

demands. The two projects he talks about are huge. Work is being done

:47:07.:47:10.

by Colin Matthews on whether a tunnel is the right way forward, and

:47:11.:47:11.

we expect more up dates that next we expect more up dates that next

:47:12.:47:11.

year. On HS3, I understand the year. On HS3, I understand the

:47:12.:47:12.

Figures released by male honourable Figures released by male honourable

:47:13.:47:12.

Severn Bridge is generating more Severn Bridge is generating more

:47:13.:47:14.

profit... It is a great opportunity for the government to slash the toll

:47:15.:47:20.

prices on the bridge, and still have enough money to pay for the

:47:21.:47:23.

maintenance. -- generating more profit than the costs. The toll

:47:24.:47:33.

prices set by others to repay the construction, finance, maintenance

:47:34.:47:37.

and operation costs. We expect the costs to be recovered in 2018, and

:47:38.:47:52.

Government. We're working on the Government. We're working on the

:47:53.:47:55.

future of their son I have heard future of their son I have heard

:47:56.:47:58.

what he has said and I will keep updated. We have always supported

:47:59.:48:02.

Labour councillors on time and we are, including when they were

:48:03.:48:03.

subjected to appalling abuse. I subjected to appalling abuse. I

:48:04.:48:11.

cause of bust tendering. But does he cause of bust tendering. But does he

:48:12.:48:17.

agree with me that the bill must be available to all communities that

:48:18.:48:18.

want them, including rural and isolated communities? -- bus

:48:19.:48:28.

tendering. She knows what will come next, I have been doing this job for

:48:29.:48:35.

three years, the fourth -- she is the fourth shadow Secretary of State

:48:36.:48:39.

I have seen. We will see whether I have seen. We will see whether

:48:40.:48:51.

there is more to come. She asks me and asserts she knows what is in the

:48:52.:48:53.

bus bill. It has not yet been bus bill. It has not yet been

:48:54.:48:57.

published, so I am interested to know how it has been achieved. The

:48:58.:49:05.

simple point is that we're there are elected mayor is, there will be

:49:06.:49:06.

opportunities for those areas to opportunities for those areas to

:49:07.:49:15.

take advantage of. I was hoping for a straight answer to a straight

:49:16.:49:20.

question. With more than 2000 routes lost and downgraded, and fares up by

:49:21.:49:30.

25%, will he rule out any plans to slash support for buses even

:49:31.:49:37.

further? Well, I am not in a position to announce the Spending

:49:38.:49:41.

Review. Like every other member of the House, she will need to wait

:49:42.:49:45.

until the Spending Review is announced by my right honourable

:49:46.:49:49.

friend, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, on the 25th of November.

:49:50.:49:54.

I hope that as a straight answer. Is he aware that added to the many

:49:55.:50:01.

defects in the rolling stock which operates on the West Anglia line,

:50:02.:50:06.

there occurred this week a case of trains stopping, screeching to a

:50:07.:50:12.

halt near Bishops Stortford, apparently for lack of air. Surely

:50:13.:50:26.

more support should be given to this franchise which can offer more

:50:27.:50:30.

assurances for rolling stock. I will make enquiries into this, I do not

:50:31.:50:35.

know about the specific case but I will do by later on today, I assure

:50:36.:50:40.

him. He is absolutely right about the need to improve rolling stock

:50:41.:50:47.

availability, and I hope the invitation to tender on the line

:50:48.:50:52.

will do this. Can the Secretary of State tell the House what measures

:50:53.:50:57.

Network Rail are taking to ensure that skilled rail jobs no longer

:50:58.:51:07.

appear on the cheers -- level two skill shortages list. 95% is brought

:51:08.:51:14.

from UK production, but if I have got the wrong part of his question,

:51:15.:51:17.

perhaps he can write to me and I will write back to him. The

:51:18.:51:24.

Secretary of State mentioned the success of the Norwich campaigns.

:51:25.:51:28.

Worcester is six miles further from London as the crow flies, but my

:51:29.:51:35.

constituents take 150 minutes to reach the capital from Worcester.

:51:36.:51:40.

Can he do everything he can to lean on great Western and Network Rail to

:51:41.:51:44.

get the service down to under two hours? My honourable friends have

:51:45.:51:55.

campaigned on this issue. There is work going on on ways to improve

:51:56.:52:00.

journey time, and we have started the work on delivering it. Commuter

:52:01.:52:06.

routes into Manchester are soon to lose trains to London Midland,

:52:07.:52:07.

raising memories of the raising memories of the

:52:08.:52:10.

trans-Pennine rolling stock to buckle, which cost ?20 million and

:52:11.:52:16.

let the services being downgraded. The Secretary of State, did he have

:52:17.:52:24.

an option in the latest cased, and is this not another example of

:52:25.:52:29.

fragmented railway is letting them passengers? He should just wait and

:52:30.:52:37.

see what comes out of the two franchises. In 2004, it is worth

:52:38.:52:43.

remembering that when the franchise was last let, it was done on a no

:52:44.:52:53.

growth basis. That is what the last government thought of the Northern

:52:54.:52:56.

Powerhouse. I invite him to wait and see the announcements made shortly.

:52:57.:53:06.

Can I seek assurances from the Minister that the new stations fund

:53:07.:53:09.

will be accessible to applications from councils, as the rail Minister

:53:10.:53:17.

knows a new station in my constituency has one of the

:53:18.:53:19.

strongest business cases in the North Devon, of which my

:53:20.:53:20.

constituents which hugely benefit. constituents which hugely benefit.

:53:21.:53:25.

The new station 's fund announced in The new station 's fund announced in

:53:26.:53:26.

applicants. The Derbyshire Dales is applicants. The Derbyshire Dales is

:53:27.:53:37.

a hub for manufacturing in regard to the rail industry. Does he agree

:53:38.:53:43.

that this is a real opportunity for forward planning on getting

:53:44.:53:46.

manufacturers to come together to prepare bids for the work of HS2?

:53:47.:53:50.

Much as this causes me pain, I will Much as this causes me pain, I will

:53:51.:53:57.

agree with the honourable member! The point he makes is absolutely

:53:58.:54:03.

not only companies within the not only companies within the

:54:04.:54:06.

position of taking advantage of it, position of taking advantage of it,

:54:07.:54:09.

but others as well. -- at in the but others as well. -- at in the

:54:10.:54:18.

the government has made ?6 billion the government has made ?6 billion

:54:19.:54:29.

roads, how can we encourage local roads, how can we encourage local

:54:30.:54:39.

repairs? We are supporting local repairs? We are supporting local

:54:40.:54:41.

authorities with financial support, which is a record ?6 billion

:54:42.:54:41.

now and 2021 for highways now and 2021 for highways

:54:42.:54:41.

maintenance. We are also encouraging maintenance. We are also encouraging

:54:42.:54:43.

them to look at how they manage their programmes, and 20% of local

:54:44.:54:44.

authorities have signed up to an authorities have signed up to an

:54:45.:54:47.

efficiency programme. What we're efficiency programme. What we're

:54:48.:54:50.

talking about here is a significant talking about here is a significant

:54:51.:54:54.

investment, and if the deal with 18 investment, and if the deal with 18

:54:55.:55:01.

able to deal with 18 million able to deal with 18 million

:55:02.:55:12.

industry is likely to suffer greatly industry is likely to suffer greatly

:55:13.:55:15.

with the latest announcements of steel closures. Will he persuade his

:55:16.:55:21.

honourable friend the Prime Minister honourable friend the Prime Minister

:55:22.:55:24.

to end his policy of gifting British to end his policy of gifting

:55:25.:55:26.

jobs to Chinese workers? I am all jobs to Chinese workers? I am all

:55:27.:55:36.

too aware of the importance of ports in getting exports out of the

:55:37.:55:40.

country and imports in. I was in Bristol yesterday which will benefit

:55:41.:55:45.

from developments in the nuclear industry, financed partly by the

:55:46.:55:51.

Chinese. I am going to Felixstowe today to see developments. The

:55:52.:55:59.

government's commitment to join the M 45 and improvements to a

:56:00.:56:01.

roundabout were warmly welcomed by East North Hampshire residents. Can

:56:02.:56:10.

he provide us with an update? I will check progress on this and

:56:11.:56:13.

back to the honourable gentleman. back to the honourable gentleman.

:56:14.:56:18.

Many constituents of mine rely on the number 44 bus to get the

:56:19.:56:20.

Southport Hospital, and the service has been cut as a result of cuts by

:56:21.:56:22.

his department. He spoke earlier his department. He spoke earlier

:56:23.:56:28.

about the opportunity of having directly elected mayor is, but if

:56:29.:56:33.

the cuts continue, the additional powers will be meaningless and of no

:56:34.:56:34.

help to my constituents. I want to help to my constituents. I want to

:56:35.:56:43.

see the widening of services to all our constituents, which is why the

:56:44.:56:47.

government is supporting transport investment to a record amount in

:56:48.:56:49.

this Parliament. The motorway that are restricted to

:56:50.:57:13.

50 mph. The work should be done for the convenience of the road users

:57:14.:57:20.

and not the highly agency. I entirely agree with my honourable

:57:21.:57:22.

friend and I think the wrong stretches of road works frustrate

:57:23.:57:28.

riders, especially as the new completion. - long stretches. We

:57:29.:57:35.

want stretches which are shorter in length and a reduced time. He will

:57:36.:57:40.

be reduced down from one third to one half of the current size. You

:57:41.:57:47.

will be evening and weekend working. If the Minister can get it sorted,

:57:48.:57:53.

who knows, he might be carried aloft in the House. The award is linking

:57:54.:58:02.

of the great cities of the North but it did not include Hull. Now we have

:58:03.:58:09.

come to the electrification of routes when will be secretary give

:58:10.:58:14.

the green light to the initiative to electrify the line all baby to hold?

:58:15.:58:21.

I do apologise to the honourable lady. - Hull. The honourable lady

:58:22.:58:33.

says they are not that many but I think there are a number of eight

:58:34.:58:39.

cities in the north. If I named them all I would get into trouble. -

:58:40.:58:46.

great cities. I have been able to move forward with infrastructure

:58:47.:58:51.

investment. As far as giving the extra money we gave to take the

:58:52.:58:56.

scheme she is talking up to HS2 I am waiting for talk is about that

:58:57.:59:03.

particular scheme. Yesterday there was an important point of order from

:59:04.:59:07.

a wide commie member when he pointed out how excellent the transport

:59:08.:59:13.

department was in answering questions and hopefully the Treasury

:59:14.:59:15.

Department is in answering questions. As the Secretary Of State

:59:16.:59:20.

been contacted by the Chancellor to find out how it is done? I am sure

:59:21.:59:27.

that is meant a helpful question. In the run up to the spending review,

:59:28.:59:37.

it is not. I think chartered engineer and as a member of the IEE

:59:38.:59:41.

G I was horrified to learn that software engineering had an sleep

:59:42.:59:47.

and used to cheat legitimate regulation and possibly undermine

:59:48.:59:53.

public health. What discussions has he had with the professional bodies,

:59:54.:59:56.

the skills Minister and the automotive industry to ensure the

:59:57.:00:00.

whole swag and sort of dark engineering has now place here? The

:00:01.:00:10.

industry across the East is very embarrassed by what has happened and

:00:11.:00:14.

I am sure they will take proper action on the measures. I wonder if

:00:15.:00:21.

my honourable friend could update the house or more progress is being

:00:22.:00:26.

made to bring Crossrail to through Harold Wilson's station? We are out

:00:27.:00:32.

to consultation but I would expect my honourable friend to have said

:00:33.:00:36.

what a great job we are doing as far as Crossrail one has been done. But

:00:37.:00:43.

I have come to learn no sooner do you complete one project and people

:00:44.:00:51.

are talking about the second. Last week the pilot was Mike union wrote

:00:52.:00:57.

to the management at Albany who operates selfless as to the

:00:58.:01:01.

Highlands and Islands about that concern where cases are being

:01:02.:01:04.

returned to the line despite being unserviceable. They brought in some

:01:05.:01:08.

cases a craft contain defects that in some cases affect safety and in

:01:09.:01:15.

other cases affect the aircraft to be an usable. These are lifeline

:01:16.:01:20.

services to some of the most economically fragile communities in

:01:21.:01:26.

the country. What can the aviation Minister do to ensure, through his

:01:27.:01:33.

department or the CE, our local communities can retain full

:01:34.:01:35.

confidence in these crucial services? I regularly meet with that

:01:36.:01:44.

union. It is a good example of how unions can work with government to

:01:45.:01:48.

promote their members. Safety is our top priority for air travel in the

:01:49.:01:57.

UK. We have two meet strict maintenance requirements. I

:01:58.:02:05.

understand that the CAA is aware of the difficulties and is taking care

:02:06.:02:12.

of safety requirements. This matter will be under review. I want to hear

:02:13.:02:15.

from a member of the select committee. Thank you. In recent

:02:16.:02:22.

weeks passengers on the Cleethorpes to Manchester rail routes have had

:02:23.:02:27.

to the top with cancellations due to driver shortage. Customers do not

:02:28.:02:31.

care if this is the company problem or union problem but can the good

:02:32.:02:36.

offices be used to sort this out, please? I will be delighted to do so

:02:37.:02:42.

and will try to do so. This is why the new into regions to end have

:02:43.:02:47.

customary expedience right at the heart of them. Business question,

:02:48.:02:55.

Chris Bryant. I wonder whether the leader of the house could give as

:02:56.:02:58.

the business for next week. The leader of the house. The business

:02:59.:03:04.

for next week, on Monday second November we will have the second

:03:05.:03:08.

reading of the Housing and planning Bill, on Tuesday November, second

:03:09.:03:11.

reading of the European approvals will Lord's. All by the remaining

:03:12.:03:17.

stages of the national insurance contributions Bill followed by a

:03:18.:03:21.

motion to improve the money resolution for access to medical

:03:22.:03:26.

treatments innovation bill. On Wednesday 4th of November will be

:03:27.:03:29.

the ninth opposition day including a debate on policing. Thursday fifth

:03:30.:03:36.

November a debate on the stake in the bank of Scotland and the future

:03:37.:03:40.

of UK banking followed by a debate on the motion relating to the dog

:03:41.:03:45.

meat trade as determined by the backbench business committee. Friday

:03:46.:03:50.

7th of November will be private members bills. The provisional

:03:51.:03:53.

business for the week commencing 9th of November will include, on Monday

:03:54.:03:57.

the ninth, the remaining stages of the Scotland Bill and on Tuesday the

:03:58.:04:01.

remaining stages of the trade unions bill. The business for Thursday

:04:02.:04:07.

fifth November will be a general debate on funding for schools. Mr

:04:08.:04:11.

Speaker will wish to be reminded as well colleagues that the house will

:04:12.:04:16.

rise for the end of business on Tuesday ten November and return on

:04:17.:04:20.

Monday 16th November. I should add that hearing that need we are

:04:21.:04:24.

expecting a visit from the Indian PM to this house and I hope those

:04:25.:04:29.

colleagues who are around and able to be soap will be part of that

:04:30.:04:37.

visit. Mr Chris Bryant. Yesterday set latter admitted the award of the

:04:38.:04:43.

World Cup to Russia had been decided long before England had in its bed

:04:44.:04:47.

and yesterday the select committee will World Cup sponsors on that

:04:48.:04:53.

complicity in blatter's kleptocratic rule. Can we have a debate on the

:04:54.:05:00.

sink of corruption that is a fact? British taxpayers and football fans

:05:01.:05:08.

have been diddled out of millions. - Fifa. Talking of stitch up jobs, can

:05:09.:05:17.

these eco-explain something he said yesterday, the review from the

:05:18.:05:21.

second Baron of Strathclyde into the privileges of we the Commons, the

:05:22.:05:25.

reader club members that is absolutely essential we do not rush

:05:26.:05:29.

into this and for that matter we should not rush headlong into

:05:30.:05:34.

unfortunately, undermine the leader unfortunately, undermine the leader

:05:35.:05:38.

of the house by telling the world that one yesterday all of this could

:05:39.:05:42.

be done and dusted white Christmas. How can this be right? If the risen

:05:43.:05:47.

issue shouldn't this house a debasing it? It is not a review at

:05:48.:05:53.

all, it is a Fifa style stitch up. I am not sure the government has got

:05:54.:05:59.

over its tantrum of losing in the Lord's on Monday. He has said

:06:00.:06:03.

several times now he will make substantial changes to his plan in

:06:04.:06:07.

the Autumn Statement on November 25. The reader will know the Autumn

:06:08.:06:12.

Statement is precisely that, a statement and no more, it does not

:06:13.:06:17.

actually do anything legislatively. I asked the reader again, will he

:06:18.:06:21.

allow a three-day debate on the effects of the Autumn Statement this

:06:22.:06:27.

year? On Tuesday the chairman of the National Cleese chief counsel and

:06:28.:06:33.

the Deputy Commissioner of the Met police said if the Home Secretary or

:06:34.:06:37.

Chancellor of the Exchequer get their way with the police budget it

:06:38.:06:42.

will be the end of the year of bobbies on the beat. Is that

:06:43.:06:48.

something to be proud of? Officers have already gone and it looks

:06:49.:06:51.

likely more than 20,000 more officers will be lost by the end of

:06:52.:06:56.

this Parliament. We should be devoting our opposition day next

:06:57.:07:02.

week to this. Can the Home Secretary herself answered this debate so we

:07:03.:07:07.

can take her to task? Can we have a debate on the ministerial code of

:07:08.:07:11.

conduct? Deviously this has made clear that there was an overarching

:07:12.:07:16.

duty on ministers to comply with law including international law and

:07:17.:07:20.

treaty obligations. Last week it was revealed that the GM has insisted it

:07:21.:07:26.

Attorney General and conservative Attorney General and conservative

:07:27.:07:31.

Attorney General says it is impossible to understand how this

:07:32.:07:35.

change has been carried out and cover was broken as the head of the

:07:36.:07:38.

contempt for international law. legal service accused number ten of

:07:39.:07:45.

contempt for international law. Surely to goodness a minister's word

:07:46.:07:48.

is still his wand when he signs a duty. Does he still crosses fingers

:07:49.:07:53.

behind his back when he signs treaties? Why on earth was the Ford

:07:54.:08:00.

of conduct issued any ministerial statement to the Lords and still not

:08:01.:08:06.

to the House of Commons? Mr Speaker, many parts of this country as many

:08:07.:08:11.

members have said still have terrible mobile telephone coverage.

:08:12.:08:16.

Last year the government had to withdraw its hourly drafted

:08:17.:08:18.

telecommunications code which was intended to deal with these spots

:08:19.:08:23.

around the country. He promised to bring any new electronic code as a

:08:24.:08:30.

matter of urgency but they've is still no sign of it so can the

:08:31.:08:33.

reader tell us when this will appear? Mobile phone coverage is

:08:34.:08:39.

every bit as much a public utility as water and electricity so will be

:08:40.:08:45.

government get a move on? Mr Speaker I confess I am worried about the

:08:46.:08:49.

state of health of the Chancellor, he looked really appeal earlier this

:08:50.:08:53.

year and I thought. He has, did I see it, something of the night about

:08:54.:08:59.

him. With Halloween upon him can the reader as sure as he will be staying

:09:00.:09:04.

at home on Saturday night when it is dark. It is one thing to scream

:09:05.:09:11.

along with order but quite another to encounter the Chancellor in a

:09:12.:09:15.

dark alley and his form of trick or treat is to suck family finances

:09:16.:09:21.

dry. Talking of Halloween, in Scotland it is the time for guising

:09:22.:09:28.

when people go around in fancy dress but has the member for South

:09:29.:09:31.

Cambridgeshire will expose the fact that however hard the PM has tried

:09:32.:09:37.

to dress the Tory party up, hugging the gays and marrying huskies,

:09:38.:09:44.

conservatism is dead, all that is left is a fake skeleton costume. We

:09:45.:09:50.

should be debating a motion next Thursday on the dog meat trade, I

:09:51.:09:53.

wondered whether this was the debate of the dogs wrecked first the

:09:54.:09:57.

Chancellor has made of the tax credit fiasco but today is award the

:09:58.:10:02.

award the Westminster dog of the year. I wish my deputy's badly

:10:03.:10:08.

behaved Rottweilers well in the competition but I gather that the

:10:09.:10:13.

member for helmet and Rockwell has two dogs called Boris and Maggie. A

:10:14.:10:20.

found bodices behaviour improved significantly when he was castrated.

:10:21.:10:28.

Well this advice be passed on to the Chancellor, Home Secretary and other

:10:29.:10:29.

candidates for the Conservative Party leadership? Leader of the

:10:30.:10:39.

house, Mr Chris Grayling. Can I start by delivering some good news

:10:40.:10:43.

to my honourable friend the member for Kettering who sadly is not in

:10:44.:10:48.

his ways today. I shall also informed the house that you, after

:10:49.:10:52.

receiving positive feedback, have authorised that the new alphabetical

:10:53.:10:57.

meetings will be kept in place for the rest of Parliament. The new warm

:10:58.:11:07.

relationship that exists between the Fs and Gs is getting on well. In all

:11:08.:11:14.

the old terms it has worked well and we will be continuing it. Can I

:11:15.:11:19.

associate myself with the remarks of the honourable gentleman about Fifa?

:11:20.:11:27.

He works hard on the brief and I am reliably informed he was

:11:28.:11:29.

disappointed to move away from that. He knows very well how

:11:30.:11:34.

shocking the developed and sat Fifa have been. It is no excuse

:11:35.:11:39.

whatsoever for what has taken place. I would commend all of those who

:11:40.:11:44.

have been involved in pursuing the investigation to the stage we have

:11:45.:11:48.

reached no. It does look likely that prosecutions will fall and rightly

:11:49.:11:54.

so. It is of absolute importance in a game that is seen around the world

:11:55.:11:59.

as a region for young people that it should be absolutely clean. Those

:12:00.:12:04.

who have left it in a position with it has been this marched by

:12:05.:12:06.

corruption should be dealt with by the full force of the law and

:12:07.:12:10.

changes essential, I completely agree with him on that.

:12:11.:12:18.

Regarding the Strathclyde review into the House of Lords, there will

:12:19.:12:24.

be a full statement about the terms of reference when he is ready to

:12:25.:12:29.

publish those details, which is right and proper. He will take the

:12:30.:12:34.

time necessary, given the scope of the work he intends to do, and he

:12:35.:12:40.

will make clear how that will work. On the tax credits point, I will

:12:41.:12:42.

remind the honourable gentleman that remind the honourable gentleman that

:12:43.:12:46.

we will be using for the Autumn Statement the same procedure is that

:12:47.:12:50.

operated in 13 years of Labour Government. Now they are in

:12:51.:12:53.

change how the House works. We will change how the House works. We will

:12:54.:12:58.

continue to operate the way we have, debating issues fully. We have

:12:59.:13:01.

already had extensive debates on the tax credits issue, and no doubt we

:13:02.:13:10.

will have more. Under Conservative leadership of government and

:13:11.:13:14.

Coalition, and under this government, crime has fallen. We

:13:15.:13:19.

have had to take some difficult decisions, and they are challenges

:13:20.:13:34.

facing the police. He made a point about the ministerial code. I would

:13:35.:13:36.

simply say that under the new ministerial code, listers are still

:13:37.:13:44.

required to uphold the law. We would expect that. -- ministers are still

:13:45.:13:58.

required. We spoke about the Department of Culture, Media and

:13:59.:14:02.

Sport. Just to remind them that the former Secretary of State, now the

:14:03.:14:04.

Business Secretary, secured a deal to secure five Ilion pounds of

:14:05.:14:11.

investment in mobile telephony. We do not just a published. --

:14:12.:14:29.

published documents, we do things. We have watched with interest the

:14:30.:14:32.

pale faces on the side of the House, the huddles of pallid people asking

:14:33.:14:37.

how we get ourselves out of this mess. My worry is for the health of

:14:38.:14:41.

him and his colleagues, not for the him and his colleagues, not for the

:14:42.:14:45.

Chancellor, who I can assure him is in great form. He made reference to

:14:46.:14:50.

the point that this weekend as Halloween. My sympathies today are

:14:51.:14:57.

with the children of the Rhondda. It is my hope that he is not planning

:14:58.:15:02.

to go trick or treating, because can you imagine the horror of a small

:15:03.:15:11.

gentleman is out trick or treating? gentleman is out trick or treating?

:15:12.:15:29.

76-year-old joint Iranians citizen has been held in Iran's notorious

:15:30.:15:40.

where his health deteriorates. -- where his health deteriorates. --

:15:41.:15:48.

the Iranian and British citizen. Has Sun and grandchildren are in the

:15:49.:15:49.

gallery today with a simple message, please let grandpa come

:15:50.:16:01.

his constituent's family and for the his constituent's family and for the

:16:02.:16:09.

work he is doing. Given the obvious urgency of this, I will make a point

:16:10.:16:13.

of ensuring this is communicated immediately after the session to my

:16:14.:16:17.

colleagues in the Foreign Office and I will ask them to ensure that

:16:18.:16:19.

respond as quickly as possible. Can respond as quickly as possible. Can

:16:20.:16:30.

announcing business for next week. announcing business for next week.

:16:31.:16:39.

Our thoughts are very much this morning with the school community

:16:40.:16:48.

their pupils in Aberdeenshire. One their pupils in Aberdeenshire.

:16:49.:16:52.

of my honourable friends was a pupil of my honourable friends was a pupil

:16:53.:16:55.

at this school. This was an at this school. This was an

:16:56.:16:55.

appalling tragedy witnessed appalling tragedy witnessed

:16:56.:16:55.

yesterday. It is Dave four of The Great War of the nobles, and it is

:16:56.:17:04.

starting to get ugly. -- day for. They have released their not so

:17:05.:17:07.

secret weapon, codenamed big boy, to go to the House and sort them out.

:17:08.:17:14.

He is going down there to emasculate the House of Lords and ensure that

:17:15.:17:16.

they never do anything like this again. Of course they can. The House

:17:17.:17:24.

of Lords is without a shred of democratic legitimacy, it represents

:17:25.:17:29.

absolutely no one. I am certain the Tories will get their way when it

:17:30.:17:32.

sensing is a real desire amongst the sensing is a real desire amongst the

:17:33.:17:38.

Conservative benches to deal decisively with the House of Lords.

:17:39.:17:41.

I get the sense they have had enough of that unelected chamber with the

:17:42.:17:48.

Lords, baronets, earls, dancing around like Santa Claus, having a

:17:49.:17:54.

stake in this democracy. I appeal to the Conservative members to join us

:17:55.:18:00.

Let us have a proper enquiry into Let us have a proper enquiry into

:18:01.:18:09.

the role of that place. We get the Scotland Bill back in a couple of

:18:10.:18:14.

weeks, and there is only one day set aside for the remaining stages and

:18:15.:18:20.

third reading. We had four days were not one amendment was made, even

:18:21.:18:24.

though they were backed by every member of Parliament who represented

:18:25.:18:31.

a Scottish constituency. The Secretary of State said he would

:18:32.:18:33.

spend the summer reflecting, and said he would try to bring back

:18:34.:18:36.

Bill in line with what was promised Bill in line with what was promised

:18:37.:18:42.

in the Smith Commission. Surely we need more than one day looking at

:18:43.:18:48.

this. This is the first is in his questions I have had an opportunity

:18:49.:18:52.

to speak of a second-class member of this House. Groaning

:18:53.:19:00.

I am certain the Leader of the House has recognised the sheer anger put

:19:01.:19:06.

forward in Scotland about Scotland's member of -- members of

:19:07.:19:15.

Parliament being told not to leave the union, but as soon as we get

:19:16.:19:23.

here things change. Is this going to be subject to an English veto, and

:19:24.:19:29.

if it is, how will it work out? We are grateful to you, Mr Speaker, for

:19:30.:19:32.

backing the call we have been making about getting rid of the ridiculous

:19:33.:19:41.

that we abandon business for that we abandon business for

:19:42.:19:46.

participating in a voluntary organisations association. I would

:19:47.:19:49.

ask you to use your considerable authority to make sure the summer

:19:50.:20:00.

recess covers all parts of the UK, there school holidays. A new

:20:01.:20:04.

tradition has been taken up by the children of Scotland, where the goal

:20:05.:20:09.

disguised as Conservatives because they are so unusual Andre. The only

:20:10.:20:12.

problem is when they turn up to the door, there is real fear that this

:20:13.:20:21.

people who open the doors that they will get any treats because they are

:20:22.:20:30.

Conservatives. I have a confession to make. Until last week I had not

:20:31.:20:34.

previously heard any of the work of that distinguished band MP four, of

:20:35.:20:43.

which he is a great part. I did not realise what great showman he was.

:20:44.:20:49.

He does bring a bit of that showbiz to this House. A little bit of fake

:20:50.:20:58.

outrage on some theatre. He showed a chink a couple of weeks ago when he

:20:59.:21:01.

said nice things about the House of Lords, but he is back to his usual

:21:02.:21:10.

form. I know where he is coming from, I am confident that we will be

:21:11.:21:14.

able to find a resolution under the guidance of Lord Strathclyde. The

:21:15.:21:18.

fake outrage has been there on the Scotland Bill as well. The Law

:21:19.:21:23.

Society of Scotland emphasised we are delivering what we committed to.

:21:24.:21:29.

I would not expect a group of politicians whose mission is to

:21:30.:21:33.

secure independence for Scotland to do anything else but have fake

:21:34.:21:38.

outrage. We are delivering what we promised. If ever there was an

:21:39.:21:45.

example of that little bit of showbiz that he brings, it is over

:21:46.:21:52.

the issue of English votes. He describes himself as a second-class

:21:53.:21:55.

citizen, which he will never be anywhere. Having listened to all of

:21:56.:22:01.

his arguments, I would remind them about what he said on the 14th of

:22:02.:22:05.

October last year, which is I sympathise totally with English

:22:06.:22:10.

members. Of course they should have English votes for English laws. They

:22:11.:22:16.

have every right to demand English-only legislation. I admire

:22:17.:22:22.

him for this, but on occasion he has a habit of delivering slightly mixed

:22:23.:22:29.

messages. Regarding Conservatives in Scotland, I think people have the

:22:30.:22:32.

reason to be skewered this autumn, come Halloween and the weeks ahead,

:22:33.:22:40.

-- to be frightened. Are the Labour Party. They have been done over by

:22:41.:22:43.

the SNP colleagues, and we intend to do them over as well. The nice

:22:44.:22:52.

quality standard of autism calls for waiting times between referral and

:22:53.:22:57.

initial appointment for assessment to be no longer than three months.

:22:58.:23:04.

-- NICE. Currently these targets are not being met. Could we have a

:23:05.:23:08.

debate on research from the National Autistic Society, which has shown

:23:09.:23:12.

that on average the wait for children is 3.5 years and adults

:23:13.:23:26.

raising concerns the diagnosis. As raising concerns the diagnosis. As

:23:27.:23:28.

every member of this House has every member of this

:23:29.:23:28.

approximately 1000 people in their approximately 1000 people in their

:23:29.:23:29.

constituency suffering from autism, these long waiting times are

:23:30.:23:34.

to crisis point. She makes a very to crisis point. She makes a very

:23:35.:23:44.

important point. As constituency MPs all of us have experience of the

:23:45.:23:46.

autistic child face and the autistic child face and the

:23:47.:23:49.

importance of doing everything we can to give those children the

:23:50.:23:53.

opportunities in life. I am sure opportunities in life. I am sure

:23:54.:24:03.

interest in this area, sheer concern interest in this area, sheer concern

:24:04.:24:09.

is shared by the Secretary of State, is shared by the Secretary of State,

:24:10.:24:18.

and I will raise the concerns with. I would ask her to continue bringing

:24:19.:24:30.

these issues to the House. Does the House and government think that once

:24:31.:24:34.

again, just looking at the House of Lords, is like looking at one

:24:35.:24:35.

on the bicycle. Not looking at the on the bicycle. Not looking at the

:24:36.:24:35.

person driving. Should we have a person driving. Should we have a

:24:36.:24:36.

comprehensive review to bring this comprehensive review to bring this

:24:37.:24:37.

into the 21st century? There are many ways about how the whole of the

:24:38.:24:41.

constitutional arrangements should work. The constitutional committee

:24:42.:24:51.

is engaged in this at the moment. The chair of the committee is hard

:24:52.:24:54.

at work looking at the constitutional arrangements and I'm

:24:55.:24:56.

interesting ideas. As you know the interesting ideas. As you know the

:24:57.:25:06.

credentials of the current UK delegation to the parliamentary

:25:07.:25:09.

assembly to the Council of Europe expire next week. As the membership

:25:10.:25:14.

of the new delegation is the responsibility of Parliament and not

:25:15.:25:18.

the government, will he make time next week for this House to express

:25:19.:25:27.

its opinion? I am aware of the motion down on his order paper --

:25:28.:25:33.

the order paper. This is a matter that I have no doubt the House will

:25:34.:25:37.

give careful consideration to, and the point of a backbench business

:25:38.:25:42.

committee is to ensure there is time available to members of the host to

:25:43.:25:48.

allocate time to debate. -- the Leader of the House to allocate time

:25:49.:25:57.

to debate. Can I thank the Leader of the House for the business

:25:58.:25:59.

statement. For the avoidance of doubt, next Thursday we have two

:26:00.:26:05.

debates from the backbench business committee. One on this taken because

:26:06.:26:11.

Bank of Scotland, and the other is the trade in dog flesh. Could the

:26:12.:26:23.

Leader of the House gives the backbench business committee and

:26:24.:26:25.

early indication if there is any possibility for time in the week

:26:26.:26:33.

beginning 16th November? I cannot give that undertaking, but my

:26:34.:26:35.

expectation is there will be time. I have no reason to believe it will

:26:36.:26:46.

not be available. He is picking interesting subject for debate which

:26:47.:26:48.

will command great attention, and I think particularly the debate on dog

:26:49.:26:55.

meat happening as it is. It is a sign of how much concerned there is

:26:56.:26:59.

across the House about the welfare of dogs. Also the fact this is a

:27:00.:27:04.

trade that most people in this country do not support at all.

:27:05.:27:09.

Steve eco. Communications this week seemed to suggest some members of

:27:10.:27:17.

the public might have even confused about the finance will weave aborted

:27:18.:27:24.

on on Monday. Could we have a statement from the reader that makes

:27:25.:27:29.

clear what the true position is and can we also understand from him what

:27:30.:27:34.

keep hands to do to counter the occasional misrepresentation of

:27:35.:27:43.

business of this House? - voted on. There is no clarification of the

:27:44.:27:46.

nature of a division on the website. I have listened to colleagues and do

:27:47.:27:51.

intend to write to that website asking them to write some degree of

:27:52.:27:58.

explanation on issues of this kind. Given this was a debate about and

:27:59.:28:03.

civil, not substance, it is not possible under the current treaty

:28:04.:28:09.

arrangements for this House to cut VAT to zero. That decision had to be

:28:10.:28:15.

taken in Brussels. There is strong interest in securing change. It is

:28:16.:28:22.

utterly unacceptable to have a situation where party groups are

:28:23.:28:27.

misrepresenting the vote as a 0 rate for tampons, it is completely

:28:28.:28:32.

unacceptable. There should be a 0 rate for a product that is clearly

:28:33.:28:42.

not a luxury. The minister gave a commitment he would raise that has

:28:43.:28:56.

in Euro and he has done so. The Cannes of the House has promised to

:28:57.:29:02.

negotiate at European level to achieve a 0 rate of the 80 on

:29:03.:29:12.

women's products. This should go alongside the court demands in the

:29:13.:29:17.

forthcoming Wii negotiation. Women's rights are not a

:29:18.:29:21.

second-class issue, can he confirm that? Women's rights will never be a

:29:22.:29:27.

second-class issue. The party in power opposite for 13 years and

:29:28.:29:34.

never secured anything of this sort. Since the debate on Tuesday we have

:29:35.:29:40.

already seen the vice chairman of the mission say this is an issue

:29:41.:29:47.

that are willing to consider. We are taking a step in the right

:29:48.:29:51.

direction. If a minister gives a commitment to this has the will do

:29:52.:29:57.

so, they will find it through. Devolution is something we all

:29:58.:30:05.

expire to and my county in Somerset wish to embrace revolution. We wish

:30:06.:30:12.

to embrace it so that the money follows the devolution coming from

:30:13.:30:15.

the centre which is fantastic, we want to do it. In this House can be

:30:16.:30:21.

debate this so there is a clear message going out to district and

:30:22.:30:24.

unity is for how they can get involved in maximising their return

:30:25.:30:30.

for taxpayers? This is what the government is seeking to do and

:30:31.:30:34.

there will be no one size fits all for different settlements in

:30:35.:30:38.

different parts of the country, it depends on the circumstances and

:30:39.:30:42.

different geography and nature of the economy. I would encourage my

:30:43.:30:48.

honourable men to make this point to other ministers. It is a great

:30:49.:30:52.

opportunity for counties like Somerset to be involved in

:30:53.:30:55.

defamation to give them greater control over matters that affect

:30:56.:31:02.

their area. There is a real opportunity for local authorities

:31:03.:31:06.

and local communities. Given the difficult financial circumstances

:31:07.:31:12.

that the NHS finds itself in, is it not time for a debate on a national

:31:13.:31:17.

tariff for the treatment of IVF given that CCG 's are paying fees as

:31:18.:31:28.

varied as ?2500 to ?6,000 per cycle? We have a choice in the NHS, we can

:31:29.:31:35.

either devolved responsibilities to local lactation is keep everything

:31:36.:31:39.

at the centre. The moment we start to say we do not like different

:31:40.:31:46.

areas where different CCG 's make different decisions we start to be

:31:47.:31:51.

centralised again. I want decisions taken by local doctors. I would eat

:31:52.:31:58.

reluctant to reverse that. With my honourable friend consider having a

:31:59.:32:03.

debate on the future of the House of lords in the near future purely and

:32:04.:32:07.

simply because of the events of this week and also I have been doing some

:32:08.:32:11.

work and had a successful debate in West and start all on a particular

:32:12.:32:16.

oppose all that was met and welcomed on all sides of the House. Part

:32:17.:32:22.

Westminster Hall. I have no doubt be will have such a debate in future

:32:23.:32:27.

but can I encourage him to talk to Lord Strathclyde as well as he

:32:28.:32:31.

dubbed his review? The scope of the review will be out shortly but I

:32:32.:32:36.

suggest he takes any ideas for change to the noble lord who will

:32:37.:32:40.

wish to hear the views of people in this House? The approach of another

:32:41.:32:48.

Parliamentary recess and no indication whatsoever that the

:32:49.:32:51.

government intends to seek a mandate for military intervention in Syria.

:32:52.:32:56.

Isn't it he can play obviously there is no appetite across this chamber

:32:57.:33:01.

for a second goal through military venture. Can we look at the

:33:02.:33:06.

financial initiatives which might actually contribute to bringing

:33:07.:33:12.

peace and stability to that country? I would simply say to the right

:33:13.:33:17.

honourable gentleman, there will be no statement or debate about

:33:18.:33:21.

military intervention in Syria unless we have an intention to

:33:22.:33:26.

intervene voluntarily in Syria. The reason we do not have another

:33:27.:33:28.

statement about that is because no decision has been taken to intervene

:33:29.:33:34.

militarily in Syria and should that happen we will come to this House

:33:35.:33:39.

and discuss it fully. We have debated this extensively in we said

:33:40.:33:44.

weeks, the Foreign Secretary was before this House regularly. They

:33:45.:33:49.

will be plenty opportunities to debate what is an difficult

:33:50.:33:52.

situation, something we all of us wish to see the resolution but it is

:33:53.:33:58.

difficult to see a path to that resolution given how complex the

:33:59.:34:03.

situation is. I feel sure he reader of the House is a Downton at the fan

:34:04.:34:12.

and will have been as alarmed as me by what happened two weeks ago.

:34:13.:34:18.

Fortunately Lord Grantham is recovering well what it is pointed

:34:19.:34:25.

out that survival from upper gastrointestinal bleeding in this

:34:26.:34:28.

country lags behind those countries with which we could reasonably be

:34:29.:34:33.

compared. I wonder if we could have a debate on how we could configure

:34:34.:34:38.

endoscopy services in this country to bring us up among the best in

:34:39.:34:42.

Europe rather than the worst? She makes a very important point in his

:34:43.:34:49.

customer Blake light-hearted but also serious weight. I did not see

:34:50.:34:55.

the particular scene in Downton Abbey but I believe it was

:34:56.:35:00.

eye-catching to say the least comment he makes today I think are

:35:01.:35:05.

important ones and I will make sure they are forwarded to my colleagues

:35:06.:35:12.

in the Department of Health. My honourable friend from the front

:35:13.:35:18.

bench quite rightly lead on the issue of Fifa which he described as

:35:19.:35:23.

a sink of corruption but football is still the beautiful game and will be

:35:24.:35:26.

readers of the House on behalf of the government join me in paying

:35:27.:35:34.

tribute to a happy birthday to a former Derbyshire player who was the

:35:35.:35:38.

first black professional footballer in the world. We are very proud of

:35:39.:35:45.

him. Years and adopted son of Darlington and will be Cannes what

:35:46.:35:52.

the House join me with say happy birthday to him? The beautiful game

:35:53.:35:59.

is tarnished because of the penalty shoot out at all Trafford last

:36:00.:36:05.

night. I will join her and also pay tribute to all of the black leaders

:36:06.:36:09.

Huebner Pathfinders in the game and opened it up to evil generation of

:36:10.:36:11.

young people. I would like to see young people. I would like to see

:36:12.:36:17.

more black coaches in this country as well and I think that should be a

:36:18.:36:22.

minority for the game. I congratulate him for all he has done

:36:23.:36:28.

to contribute to the sport. My hard-working constituents who use

:36:29.:36:33.

Kingston and Surbiton station 's art forced to pay for zone six tickets

:36:34.:36:39.

when logic and fairness dictates they should be in zone five. 26

:36:40.:36:43.

stations are in zone five yet further from their London terminus.

:36:44.:36:48.

I know there are other reasoning campaigns in London yet houses

:36:49.:36:52.

certainly the most compelling. We make time for a debate on the zoning

:36:53.:36:59.

of stations in London? I would not go as far to say... He may be the

:37:00.:37:06.

most campaigning campaign in London but the campaign to get Epsom in

:37:07.:37:09.

zone six which is outside London may be a great important. There are

:37:10.:37:15.

zoning concerns and I have drawn this to the Department for Transport

:37:16.:37:21.

was my attention. I hope we can make regressing what we are doing and our

:37:22.:37:25.

constituents can see that. It is something I know people in still are

:37:26.:37:33.

looking forward to him succeeding in due course in. A cross-party support

:37:34.:37:38.

for a series of appeals. Open up family courts is something a

:37:39.:37:42.

succession of governments have promised to reform. Will there be a

:37:43.:37:48.

debate on how we can break open the cartels that surround the family

:37:49.:37:52.

courts system? Having been Secretary Of State for just as I am aware of

:37:53.:37:57.

this and sympathetic. We have two be careful there are some deeply

:37:58.:38:02.

distressing stories take place within the family courts and we must

:38:03.:38:05.

not open them up in a way that exposes family heartache to the

:38:06.:38:12.

tabloid media. He is right to say there is no reason for the agree of

:38:13.:38:18.

closed environment that exists around those family courts. I know

:38:19.:38:23.

this is a matter of concern to my colleague the Secretary Of State

:38:24.:38:27.

today. He will be here again on Tuesday and I would encourage him to

:38:28.:38:32.

re-raised this point. As my right honourable friend knows, I am

:38:33.:38:38.

running a campaign to save the hedgehog. Will my right honourable

:38:39.:38:43.

friend 's urge every member and right on rubble member to ensure

:38:44.:38:46.

there are safety measures in place within one fires next Thursday which

:38:47.:38:54.

is Guy Fawkes night? Thank you. I share his concern about the

:38:55.:38:57.

hedgehog. We have seen a really distressing fall in our hedgehog

:38:58.:39:04.

population in the last few decades. When I was a child you would find

:39:05.:39:07.

one in every garden, it will would feed them outside the door and it

:39:08.:39:13.

now does not happen to any degree like it used to. I would say to

:39:14.:39:17.

members on all sides of the House and anyone listening to this debate,

:39:18.:39:22.

bonfire night is a period of great danger to hedgehogs. If you drive

:39:23.:39:27.

around the country you will already see large piles of wood setup. It is

:39:28.:39:33.

all too common that a hedgehog finds refuge in those bonfires in the next

:39:34.:39:38.

few days. I would ask anyone to double-check before they like them

:39:39.:39:42.

to make sure there is not a hedgehog nesting inside, we cannot afford to

:39:43.:39:48.

lose any more. Young people are being killed on our streets.

:39:49.:39:53.

Tragically, in my constituency, there have been two youth deaths in

:39:54.:39:59.

as many months. This is not isolated. A boy stabbed to death in

:40:00.:40:05.

Aberdeen, shooting in Hackney, Alford, even machine-gun fire in

:40:06.:40:12.

Willesden. This had to stop. With the government continuing to cut

:40:13.:40:14.

front line services, young people are turning to crime and violence in

:40:15.:40:19.

bigger and bigger numbers. Is it not time to call an urgent debate

:40:20.:40:24.

looking at how all parties can work together to stop the rise of youth

:40:25.:40:30.

violence? Mr Speaker, firstly, let us be clear, knife crime is a blight

:40:31.:40:36.

on our society as our knife murders and I would endorse the comments

:40:37.:40:43.

made earlier about the tragic events in Aberdeen yesterday. They are

:40:44.:40:46.

fortunately rare in this country that makes them even more shocking

:40:47.:40:51.

when they do happen. I send my condolences and good wishes not only

:40:52.:40:54.

to the family but also those in the school for whom it would have aimed

:40:55.:40:59.

a deeply traumatic experience. On the streets of London any death

:41:00.:41:04.

through knife crime is too much, we have taken measures to toughen the

:41:05.:41:07.

law around carrying knives but it is important to support those

:41:08.:41:12.

organisations that try to take young people away from crime and carrying

:41:13.:41:19.

by a couple who set it up after the by a couple who set it up after the

:41:20.:41:26.

death of their son. The number of young people entering the criminal

:41:27.:41:30.

justice system for the first time is balding and has continued to fall

:41:31.:41:34.

for a number of years. That is a great step forward. The challenge of

:41:35.:41:38.

the offending is a good news story that fewer people are entering the

:41:39.:41:43.

justice system for the first time, long may that continue.

:41:44.:41:51.

British farmers who successfully applied for environmental

:41:52.:41:55.

improvement grants are being told that unless they put up all boards

:41:56.:41:59.

indicating the money came from the EU, they could lose part or all of

:42:00.:42:13.

and net contributors to the EU, and net contributors to the EU,

:42:14.:42:33.

isn't it akin to me taking my money from my bank to do a home

:42:34.:42:33.

improvement, and putting up a billboard saying, thank

:42:34.:42:34.

Barclays? Could we have a statement Barclays? Could we have a

:42:35.:42:34.

from an agricultural Minister saying from an agricultural Minister saying

:42:35.:42:34.

the British countryside by this the British countryside by this

:42:35.:42:35.

propaganda? The countryside here is around the most -- among the most

:42:36.:42:38.

beautiful anywhere in the world. I have some sympathy with him, and I

:42:39.:42:44.

do not want to see anything detracting from its natural beauty

:42:45.:42:50.

full stop DEFRA questions are next Thursday, so he can put it to him

:42:51.:42:55.

directly. But keep the countryside pure and natural. Will the

:42:56.:43:02.

government make a statement on the situation of employees pensions and

:43:03.:43:08.

the Commonwealth War Graves Commission? He will not allow them

:43:09.:43:18.

to make a decision on closing... Does he agree that staff working

:43:19.:43:24.

harder than ever due to the centenary commemorations at cutting

:43:25.:43:28.

committee staff pensions while the Director-General gets a 50% pay rise

:43:29.:43:35.

is utterly inappropriate? I understand the point he is making. A

:43:36.:43:40.

range of organisations have had to make decisions about final salary

:43:41.:43:48.

pensions. I will make sure they concerns he has raised will be

:43:49.:43:52.

passed on to my ministerial colleagues. Following the comments

:43:53.:44:03.

from the honourable member for Perth and your excellent article this week

:44:04.:44:09.

Mr, Mr Speaker, will he arrange for a debate on whether this House

:44:10.:44:31.

should continue to have a conference recess, or whether the

:44:32.:44:39.

party should sort themselves out and party should sort themselves out and

:44:40.:44:39.

arrange their confidence at the arrange their confidence at the

:44:40.:44:40.

weekend, like the SNP do. We would be able to work out which MPs are

:44:41.:44:40.

able to do the job in their -- their able to do the job in their -- their

:44:41.:44:41.

job in this House and hold the government to account. There is

:44:42.:44:42.

growing interest in this area. Particularly given the fact that

:44:43.:44:44.

there are perhaps fewer Liberal Democrats than there used to be for

:44:45.:44:47.

the confidence week. This has been raised through the usual channels.

:44:48.:44:50.

Confidence became take place some years in advance. This is something

:44:51.:44:55.

that needs to be dealt with carefully. I am pleased to hear

:44:56.:45:04.

there will be a debate on policing, but I am concerned at the lack of

:45:05.:45:09.

reality in the Leader of the House's responses on police

:45:10.:45:13.

150 plus uniformed presence from the 150 plus uniformed presence from the

:45:14.:45:20.

street and seen a 22% increase in violent crime in the last year. It

:45:21.:45:23.

is a connection between these things. Will the Leader of the House

:45:24.:45:28.

ensure that when the government come to this House to pretend there --

:45:29.:45:32.

present the debate on policing, that they face the facts as we do in our

:45:33.:45:46.

communities? I can only reactivate that the crime survey shows that

:45:47.:45:48.

notwithstanding some of the difficult challenges the police

:45:49.:45:52.

force has had to face up to, crime has continued to fall. There is

:45:53.:45:57.

scope for police officers and police forces to deliver new ways of

:45:58.:46:04.

working, bringing down cost without affecting front line support to the

:46:05.:46:08.

community 's. Labour run Kirklees Council have written off ?850,000 in

:46:09.:46:16.

section 106 cash which was allocated to improve local infrastructure by

:46:17.:46:20.

house-builders and developers. Can be debate how appalling situations

:46:21.:46:25.

like this is seeing local communities lose confidence in

:46:26.:46:30.

planning opportunities? I am aware of the issue. Begs questions about

:46:31.:46:37.

credit control and bringing money when it is due. Local authorities

:46:38.:46:41.

have the power to set timelines even to get money in advance for the

:46:42.:46:48.

payments they receive. Can I suggest to him, it is a matter of concern,

:46:49.:46:52.

that he raises this with the department concerned, perhaps

:46:53.:46:56.

through an adjournment debate or the next time they are in this House for

:46:57.:47:03.

questions? Can he share his current understanding of when legislation

:47:04.:47:06.

regarding the Stormont House regarding the Stormont House

:47:07.:47:12.

agreement may be brought forward? With the government continue a draft

:47:13.:47:16.

committee from both houses, dealing committee from both houses, dealing

:47:17.:47:19.

with the sensitive issue of legacy, which there has not been due

:47:20.:47:23.

consultation with victims for a consultation with victims for a

:47:24.:47:27.

variety of reasons and excuses, and this Parliament has been asked to

:47:28.:47:33.

legislate in lieu of the assembly. With the government give that period

:47:34.:47:39.

of special legislative scrutiny? I will discuss that with the Secretary

:47:40.:47:41.

of State. We have been involved in discussions with all parties in

:47:42.:47:46.

Northern Ireland, and those are continuing. We will bring it to this

:47:47.:47:54.

House as soon as we can. But I will make the Secretary of State of the

:47:55.:47:57.

issue he has raised. I was delighted to hear that others it will be

:47:58.:48:04.

taking place on the 12th to 14th of November, and there will be an

:48:05.:48:10.

opportunity for Parliament to receive him properly. That takes

:48:11.:48:13.

place between the November recess of this place and during Hindu New

:48:14.:48:18.

Year. Can I take the opportunity to invite the Leader of the House to

:48:19.:48:26.

wish a happy, peaceful and prosperous New Year, but equally can

:48:27.:48:30.

we have a statement as to the trade Guilds and educational arrangements

:48:31.:48:30.

and other arrangement is taking and other arrangement is taking

:48:31.:48:40.

place during that visit? I echo the happy New Year wishes he has made

:48:41.:48:41.

reference to, and I hope everyone reference to, and I hope everyone

:48:42.:48:49.

has an enjoyable, relaxing, successful set of New Year festival

:48:50.:48:56.

's. No doubt we will all wish you, Mr Speaker, and I will make

:48:57.:48:59.

House aware of the details of the House aware of the details of the

:49:00.:49:05.

visit shortly. India is one of the biggest allies and it is a great

:49:06.:49:14.

democracy. This is a great opportunity. We were guests last

:49:15.:49:22.

night for the club the London Tigers, a sports club which does

:49:23.:49:24.

amazing work with young people from all different communities, and it

:49:25.:49:27.

would be appropriate to place on record our appreciation for the

:49:28.:49:32.

call for the debate on families who call for the debate on families who

:49:33.:49:35.

have autism in the family? I'm sure have autism in the family? I'm sure

:49:36.:49:43.

recent news of more diversity in the recent news of more diversity in the

:49:44.:49:48.

boardroom, it is welcome but needs boardroom, it is welcome but needs

:49:49.:49:50.

to go further. Could we have an early debate on diversity, and

:49:51.:49:58.

shouldn't this House be an exemplar? If you look at the photograph in the

:49:59.:50:00.

corridor, it has 64 photographs of corridor, it has 64 photographs of

:50:01.:50:15.

people who run the House at the senior level. Everyone is white and

:50:16.:50:23.

absolutely agree, and I would say absolutely agree, and I would say

:50:24.:50:32.

about the photographs out the back, about the photographs out the back,

:50:33.:50:36.

we have made great progress over the we have made great progress over the

:50:37.:50:37.

like in 2001 when I was elected, and like in 2001 when I was elected, and

:50:38.:50:37.

what it looks like today, there is a what it looks like today, there is a

:50:38.:50:38.

continue this and encourage the continue this and encourage the

:50:39.:50:47.

recruitment process. I want a society that is reflected in this

:50:48.:50:51.

House, and it has two reflect the society outside in all aspects of

:50:52.:50:58.

its working. The plans for the station in Torbay, the first one for

:50:59.:51:03.

therefore can we have a statement on therefore can we have a statement on

:51:04.:51:09.

when the next tranche of station funding will be available to bid for

:51:10.:51:14.

the complete this project? Unfortunately we have just had

:51:15.:51:16.

transport questions, so he will have to wait before the Secretary of

:51:17.:51:21.

State is back again, but his comments will have been noted. But

:51:22.:51:28.

if you look around this country, 20 years after the privatisation of

:51:29.:51:32.

railways, we have new railway lines opening, the start of a new service

:51:33.:51:35.

from Oxford to London, something that would never have happened in

:51:36.:51:42.

the days of British Rail. We have a party opposite who think we would be

:51:43.:51:44.

better off renationalising everything. It would be disastrous.

:51:45.:51:50.

The way we have it now, we are seeing innovations and long may that

:51:51.:51:58.

continue. Last week the Prime Minister said he did not want anyone

:51:59.:52:03.

relying on food banks, but this week the Work and Pensions Secretary told

:52:04.:52:07.

the select committee that he planned to station job advisers and food

:52:08.:52:12.

banks. Is it right that extreme food poverty should become an accepted

:52:13.:52:19.

element of GWP National planning? Could we have a debate on this? She

:52:20.:52:27.

has got this plain wrong. If we have people who are in need of food

:52:28.:52:31.

banks, and I would remind her that we have a lower use of food banks in

:52:32.:52:35.

this country than in countries like Germany, so it is simply not true

:52:36.:52:38.

-- link it to public policy. That we -- link it to public policy. That we

:52:39.:52:44.

should be helping these people into work and out of poverty. Making sure

:52:45.:52:52.

the Jobcentre is aware of what is going on in food banks seem

:52:53.:52:58.

sensible. It was an honour to present certificates recently to

:52:59.:53:04.

some of the 1500 graduates of the National Citizen Service scheme.

:53:05.:53:09.

real government success story and real government success story and

:53:10.:53:12.

will he allow time for a debate on how we can roll out this to more

:53:13.:53:17.

people every year? This has been a huge success story, this is one of

:53:18.:53:24.

the things that will have the most lasting impact on the country. It is

:53:25.:53:29.

growing and developing and proving a great success. It is changing the

:53:30.:53:33.

lives of young people in different parts of the countries, bringing

:53:34.:53:37.

together people from different backgrounds in a way that can only

:53:38.:53:39.

be positive for the future. Long may it continue. The shadow leader of

:53:40.:53:47.

the House was right to raise the ministerial code. Could we have an

:53:48.:53:51.

urgent statement on who made the decision on changing the code, the

:53:52.:54:02.

reasons for doing so? The honour of the ministerial code is the Prime

:54:03.:54:06.

Minister, so there will be plenty opportunities for the honourable

:54:07.:54:15.

lady to ask. On page 29 of the day's order paper there is a motion

:54:16.:54:18.

about the UK dedication to the alimentary assembly of the Council

:54:19.:54:24.

of Europe. It goes on to page 30 because it is signed by 58 members

:54:25.:54:29.

of this House from all the major political parties. It commends the

:54:30.:54:31.

work of the honourable member work of the honourable member

:54:32.:54:42.

Christchurch, his years there, and I wonder if the Leader of the House

:54:43.:54:47.

but put it on the order paper next but put it on the order paper next

:54:48.:54:53.

week. There is not a business of the House committee, so we're relying on

:54:54.:54:56.

the government to bring this motion forward. Would he bring this

:54:57.:55:04.

forward? I have spotted the degree of support for this motion. I am

:55:05.:55:12.

aware of the desire to debate it. What I would say is that there is

:55:13.:55:15.

quite a lot of time allocated through backbench business committee

:55:16.:55:20.

to debate in this House. He will return to the issue shortly, but

:55:21.:55:24.

there is a simple allocation available to debate this. The chair

:55:25.:55:33.

is sitting over there. The Minister may be aware of the case of 26 you

:55:34.:55:41.

will transmit and who been sentenced to serve her prison sentence in a

:55:42.:55:44.

men's prison. The good news I heard today is that she is to be

:55:45.:55:58.

transferred to a women's prison. -- a 26-year-old trans-women.

:55:59.:56:02.

in detail of this tend to be out in detail of this tend to be out

:56:03.:56:09.

with the metal ministers, but the Ministry of Justice will always want

:56:10.:56:13.

decisions of this nature to be taken sensitively and carefully. There are

:56:14.:56:17.

questions for the House on Tuesday, and they will listen to her concerns

:56:18.:56:27.

then. Can we have a debate on how to tackle cyber crime? I have received

:56:28.:56:36.

complaints from constituents in the complaints from constituents in the

:56:37.:56:52.

past, and there is another report in the local newspaper today, one of my

:56:53.:56:59.

convincing and genuine looking convincing and genuine looking

:57:00.:57:02.

e-mail purporting to come from a high street bank asking for

:57:03.:57:02.

details which could lead to people details which could lead to people

:57:03.:57:11.

number of quite worrying cases number of quite worrying cases

:57:12.:57:11.

highlighted in recent weeks and highlighted in recent weeks and

:57:12.:57:11.

months of people losing large chunks of life savings to some

:57:12.:57:13.

complex and sophisticated scams. The complex and sophisticated scams. The

:57:14.:57:16.

message we should give out is to be very careful. This should send

:57:17.:57:26.

messages to the people we represent that they are criminal groups out

:57:27.:57:28.

there who are trying to rip you off there who are trying to rip you off

:57:29.:57:34.

all of the time. I keep saying to my honourable friend, keep bringing up

:57:35.:57:36.

I hear the usual chuntering from a I hear the usual chuntering from a

:57:37.:57:40.

sedentary position from the shadow sedentary position from the shadow

:57:41.:57:41.

leader. This is a really serious leader. This is a really serious

:57:42.:57:46.

issue. On television this week there was a woman who had been swindled

:57:47.:58:06.

for ?35,000 by a gang who persuaded her to go to the bank and transfer

:58:07.:58:07.

her money to a different account. It is not a laughing matter. Does the

:58:08.:58:14.

concern being expressed in concern being expressed in

:58:15.:58:17.

Birmingham and by the Birmingham Post and mail over the threat

:58:18.:58:20.

Freedom of Information and will he Freedom of Information and will he

:58:21.:58:25.

agree to an urgent debate on what is a threat to the cornerstone of our

:58:26.:58:27.

democracy? The irony is that the person who

:58:28.:58:37.

said they regretted the Freedom of Information Act most was Jack Straw

:58:38.:58:42.

who introduced it and looked upon it as one of the things he got wrong.

:58:43.:58:47.

The Freedom of Information Act is something this government is

:58:48.:58:50.

committed to. We want to make sure it works fairly and cannot be

:58:51.:58:57.

misused but it is misused by people who use it as EV search tool to

:58:58.:59:00.

generate stories for the media. It is a legitimate tool for those who

:59:01.:59:06.

understand how this government has taken decisions. It is not the

:59:07.:59:10.

intention of this government to change that. I know from my

:59:11.:59:17.

family's on experience just how devastating pancreatic cancer can be

:59:18.:59:21.

and whether November being pancreatic awareness month can we

:59:22.:59:28.

see what is being done to help those suffering from this disease? My

:59:29.:59:31.

honourable friend makes an important point and of course all forms of

:59:32.:59:37.

cancer, particularly pancreatic cancer, are deeply distressing for

:59:38.:59:39.

the families of those involved and those who suffered from the

:59:40.:59:45.

different varieties of cancer. One of the things that is encouraging at

:59:46.:59:49.

the moment is that we really seemed to be making some significant steps

:59:50.:59:53.

forward in treatment and research for treatment in future. One of the

:59:54.:59:58.

things I am pleased we have done as the government is not withstanding

:59:59.:00:01.

the financial pressures we face. We have continued to keep up our

:00:02.:00:07.

budgets going into the search which open up a better future for those

:00:08.:00:10.

who are sufferers and I hope that what continues. Since the session

:00:11.:00:17.

started this morning welcome news has emerged from China that they are

:00:18.:00:23.

to end their one child policy. Will the leader of the house for a debate

:00:24.:00:28.

on the government's to child policy with particular reference to the

:00:29.:00:33.

Greek clause? The boot them please fill details and I am a wee of the

:00:34.:00:39.

issue she has raised and the fact she has continued to make this

:00:40.:00:44.

concern will be conveyed to my colleagues. -- rape clause.

:00:45.:00:52.

Anti-Muslim rape right -- anti-Muslim hate crime will be

:00:53.:01:01.

recorded separately. Can we therefore have a debate on heat

:01:02.:01:04.

crime in all of its forms and what we can do to eradicate this from our

:01:05.:01:12.

society? Mr Speaker, heat crime in any form is unacceptable. I am very

:01:13.:01:15.

much aware that although we have seen he's beat of anti-Semitic

:01:16.:01:20.

attacks in recent months the also see in this country regularly

:01:21.:01:24.

attacks on mosques and Muslims. The steps the government are taking is

:01:25.:01:29.

right. We should not tolerate heat crime against any of our communities

:01:30.:01:35.

in this country. We should be dealt with with the full force of the law

:01:36.:01:42.

wherever that occurs. This House should remind us of obligations in

:01:43.:01:46.

that direction. Can we have the debate on defence attunement and

:01:47.:01:52.

buying British? Why are the three new royal navy ships and the 500

:01:53.:02:02.

last armed vehicles from the army not been built with British Steel?

:02:03.:02:05.

On occasions when the Lizzie specialist metal requirement we have

:02:06.:02:10.

two source the specialist metal from wherever it comes from. 90s percent

:02:11.:02:14.

of the steel being put into Crossrail is coming from British

:02:15.:02:21.

sources. It is disappointing in Scotland the Scottish Government has

:02:22.:02:26.

not done the same. The steel going into our aircraft carriers is also

:02:27.:02:30.

British Steel. The question I would ask him, he talks about defence

:02:31.:02:34.

procurement and the question I would ask about defence procurement and

:02:35.:02:39.

British jobs, if he is so concerned about the use of British Steel and

:02:40.:02:44.

jobs in Britain, why does his party now support a policy that would

:02:45.:02:49.

scrap the plans for Trident submarines to be built in Barrow in

:02:50.:02:56.

Furness? When can we debate the convention that serving time

:02:57.:03:03.

ministers are not invited to give evidence to select committees? There

:03:04.:03:08.

is compelling evidence now that three prime ministers were

:03:09.:03:11.

unwittingly but directly involved in an enterprise that cost the

:03:12.:03:18.

taxpayers many millions of pounds. Isn't it important, too, that we

:03:19.:03:23.

understand why three prime ministers were infatuated by the delusional

:03:24.:03:40.

fraudsters of Kicks Company dinar two points to make. Everyone on both

:03:41.:03:45.

sides of the House are concerned about what happened with Kicks

:03:46.:03:52.

Company understanding what went wrong in that charity was not the

:03:53.:04:08.

fault of some people involved in it. In my view the Beagle he is looking

:04:09.:04:18.

for is already in existence. Three years ago the caravan manufacturers

:04:19.:04:23.

of Hull had to fight off the caravan tax that would like their industry.

:04:24.:04:30.

Now the government is buying steel from abroad and I wonder if it is

:04:31.:04:35.

time we had a debate about an industrial policy for our country

:04:36.:04:37.

and not every other country in the world? Let me tell her about

:04:38.:04:45.

industrial policy. The industrial policy which leads to the dramatic

:04:46.:04:50.

drop in level feel I boot in the UK, and industrial policy that leads

:04:51.:04:56.

to the near halving of manufacturing is a policy we had under the last

:04:57.:05:01.

Labour government. We have been working to restore manufacturing and

:05:02.:05:04.

steel development and production is now at the same level or slightly

:05:05.:05:09.

higher than when he took office. Just on occasions, they are the

:05:10.:05:14.

opposition and can ask questions without remembering there on record

:05:15.:05:21.

in government. When it came to manufacturing in this country they

:05:22.:05:28.

made a right royal mess up. Concern about the illegal wildlife trade is

:05:29.:05:31.

growing and the Duke of Cambridge spoke out about this last week.

:05:32.:05:35.

Responsibility in government lies between DEFRA, the Commonwealth and

:05:36.:05:40.

government office. Can we look at how we can better coordinate a UK

:05:41.:05:44.

Government response to end this vile trade? I wholeheartedly agree with

:05:45.:05:52.

him. To see a return to the poaching of elephants in southern Africa is

:05:53.:05:55.

something I find completely distressing. The threat facing the

:05:56.:06:01.

Rhino I find profoundly distressing. I would commend Prince Harry and

:06:02.:06:05.

Prince William for the work they have done on this over the years. I

:06:06.:06:10.

commend everyone in this House who works to work on this challenge.

:06:11.:06:17.

People should be able to CDs great animals in the wild and not look at

:06:18.:06:24.

on the history books about their death. The department that has the

:06:25.:06:30.

biggest role in all of this it is really ought Porto we do everything

:06:31.:06:34.

we can to stem what is a vile trade. -- see these great animals.

:06:35.:06:43.

Gentry and contractor is a debilitating disease of the hands

:06:44.:06:47.

caused by manual Labour. The industrial injuries advisory Council

:06:48.:06:57.

made recommendations to the DWP last year as to why they should make this

:06:58.:07:01.

a prescribed occupational disease yet there has not been any official

:07:02.:07:06.

announcement. With the leader of the house make a statement about why

:07:07.:07:09.

there has been such a delay which has impacted on many disabled people

:07:10.:07:15.

in the UK? She raises an important issue. I do not know the answer to

:07:16.:07:20.

his question but we will have the DWP minister is here on Monday and I

:07:21.:07:23.

will make sure they are briefed in advance of that so they can give the

:07:24.:07:27.

proper response if he raises it then. Point of order, Mr Alex

:07:28.:07:34.

Salmond. At the same time as business questions it was announced

:07:35.:07:38.

nicer John Chilcott why means of a letter to the tri- Minister that it

:07:39.:07:43.

would be a further nine months before the Iraq enquiry is to be

:07:44.:07:48.

published which will mean it is seven years since it was established

:07:49.:07:53.

and the full 13 years since the war was started. Would it not just be an

:07:54.:07:59.

order but a mark of respect to the 179 families of dead servicemen at

:08:00.:08:09.

the government had come to the House to explore reasons of delay in the

:08:10.:08:14.

enquiry and the possible legal consequences that might fall on

:08:15.:08:19.

certain individuals if that enquiry allocates responsibility for the

:08:20.:08:24.

illegal conflict? Yes, perhaps I should just take the leader of the

:08:25.:08:32.

house. I am not exactly aware of when the letter was sent or received

:08:33.:08:36.

but I am a weird and have long been that this is a matter of very, very

:08:37.:08:42.

elite interest and concern to members right across the House. Part

:08:43.:08:47.

I am aware. If the reader of the House would like to come to the orcs

:08:48.:08:54.

we would be pleased to hear him. Let me see firstly that I share and the

:08:55.:08:58.

government share the right honourable gentleman was my

:08:59.:09:02.

frustration about how long this has taken. They are clearly lessons

:09:03.:09:07.

which need to be learned from this whole process. It is an none of our

:09:08.:09:11.

interests that this has taken so long. We were in opposition at the

:09:12.:09:19.

time so have no investment in delaying this matter. It is out with

:09:20.:09:22.

the control of government. The the control of government. The

:09:23.:09:26.

timetable is entirely in his own hands. In terms of the timing of

:09:27.:09:31.

this, I do not know either the time at which the letter was actually

:09:32.:09:37.

released but it is not my job to P and a letter for Sir John Chilcott

:09:38.:09:42.

before he has announced it himself. I want to hear further observations

:09:43.:09:48.

on this matter. Mr Davies? I think we all agree with the member for

:09:49.:09:55.

Banff and Buchan on this and with the leaders comments. These are many

:09:56.:10:00.

suggestions that it has been delayed right Whitehall not leaving things

:10:01.:10:07.

quickly enough and not providing enough information, by challenging

:10:08.:10:10.

the ability to release information. It would be helpful to the House if

:10:11.:10:15.

you were a statement and frankly this is an insult and the

:10:16.:10:20.

compounding of the grief of the many families who have lost loved ones in

:10:21.:10:27.

that war. I wanted to hear the points of order and will view the

:10:28.:10:33.

honourable gentleman in a moment but the leader of the house is correct

:10:34.:10:39.

in saying macro it is not for him to pre-empt the delivery or publication

:10:40.:10:44.

of letters but unlike of what I do sense is quite a strong feeling

:10:45.:10:48.

across the House, it might be extremely helpful if, when the

:10:49.:10:51.

leader of the houses in full session of the facts he perhaps considers an

:10:52.:10:58.

early short statement on which there would be an opportunity for

:10:59.:11:01.

questioning at the start of next week. I newly put that thought to

:11:02.:11:07.

him now and he has a option to refer to it. -- merrily. I can assure my

:11:08.:11:16.

honourable friend that I have seen no evidence on the half of the

:11:17.:11:20.

government to stall on this. We have been as keen as anyone in this House

:11:21.:11:25.

to see this published. Here is no desire in the government to slow

:11:26.:11:30.

this up. It is outwith our control. I will take the point raised about

:11:31.:11:33.

an early statement. The committee that set up the

:11:34.:11:44.

Chilcott enquiry was the public administration committee under Tony

:11:45.:11:47.

right, and at the time they were misgivings about the form of

:11:48.:11:50.

enquiry, and a suggestion made that it should be run by Parliament

:11:51.:11:56.

directly, an entirely new form of enquiry would have been better if

:11:57.:11:59.

parliamentarians had control of this. Can we have assurance from

:12:00.:12:08.

government, as we have now -- no explanation about what happened in

:12:09.:12:12.

Iraq, and no explanation of the enquiry into the Helmand concession

:12:13.:12:22.

which resulted in 454 lives being lost, and can the government given

:12:23.:12:30.

-- give an assurance that we will not be involved in the four sided

:12:31.:12:34.

war in Syria before these matters will be discussed? Can I see to the

:12:35.:12:42.

honourable gentleman, a statement by government to the House on this

:12:43.:12:46.

matter would afford a real opportunity for him to make his

:12:47.:12:51.

point, not my point -- by point of order to me, back to the Leader of

:12:52.:12:57.

the House. It would perhaps be uncontroversial that had there been

:12:58.:13:00.

a parliamentary committee looking at this matter, it would not have been

:13:01.:13:07.

possible for it to do its work more slowly even if it had made a

:13:08.:13:13.

Herculean effort to do so. I think it is important, on behalf of the

:13:14.:13:18.

House, whether it concerns are perturbed them or not, that Sir John

:13:19.:13:28.

should be aware that there is a very real sense of anger and frustration

:13:29.:13:33.

across the whole House over what seems at this line substantial --

:13:34.:13:39.

substantial disservice as to what has been done. I am grateful for

:13:40.:13:48.

this being raised and four other members underlining the strength of

:13:49.:13:54.

feeling. If he could hold his forces for a moment! Point of order, Diana

:13:55.:14:00.

Johnson. When ministers speak from the dispatch box I know they have to

:14:01.:14:03.

make sure they are factually correct, and I am sorry to raise

:14:04.:14:09.

again a point of order about a factual inaccuracy that has been

:14:10.:14:15.

made by the Leader of the House. In his exchange with one of my

:14:16.:14:18.

honourable friend 's this morning, he said that Labour had done nothing

:14:19.:14:23.

in 13 years to deal with the issue of VAT on sanitary products. This is

:14:24.:14:31.

incorrect. A Treasury minister ensured that VAT was reduced from

:14:32.:14:47.

the top rate to 5% in 2001, and I hope the record can be corrected. I

:14:48.:14:49.

think we should leave the exchange think we should leave the exchange

:14:50.:14:52.

there, but if the leader wishes to reply he can do so. She made her

:14:53.:14:55.

point clearly and it is on the record, and will be in the official

:14:56.:14:56.

report. It is important to say it is not often fear to cut sentences

:14:57.:15:01.

short, because I said on zero rating. We now come to backbench

:15:02.:15:10.

business. The first item is a motion in the name of Mr Greer Graham

:15:11.:15:16.

Allen. -- Mr Graham Allen. This is the first case in which procedures

:15:17.:15:22.

have been invoked, it may be helpful if I explain what is happening. This

:15:23.:15:29.

is an identical motion to that which was debated in Westminster Hall on

:15:30.:15:34.

Wednesday the 14th of October, when the question was put in Westminster

:15:35.:15:42.

Hall, the decision of the question was challenged. As the motion was

:15:43.:15:50.

being brought before this chamber, under standing order number ten,

:15:51.:15:55.

subsection 13, I am now required to put the question on the motion

:15:56.:16:01.

without bait to move formally -- without debate. Formally move the

:16:02.:16:21.

motion under House committee. The question is and the order paper. As

:16:22.:16:26.

many as of that opinion seem-macro three. On the contrary, no. The noes

:16:27.:16:36.

have it. Could you assist me on how we can take this matter forward now

:16:37.:16:41.

that the House has expressed a strong views so that we can all

:16:42.:16:45.

discuss the issue of our House business committee, which was in the

:16:46.:16:51.

Coalition agreement, promised by the then Conservative Leader of the

:16:52.:16:55.

House, and was the remaining outstanding business of the right

:16:56.:17:00.

committee on reforming this chamber. Could you give us some advice on how

:17:01.:17:04.

we can move this forward and actually have a genuine debate on

:17:05.:17:06.

whether we need a House business committee or not? Not for the first

:17:07.:17:13.

time, possibly not for the last, I feel that the honourable gentleman

:17:14.:17:18.

flatters me. He does not require my advice. The honourable gentleman is

:17:19.:17:26.

a sellable constitutionalist -- Sarid

:17:27.:17:37.

Constitutionalist and there are number of devices where this can be

:17:38.:17:42.

debated in this chamber, and he knows that he has a fellow spirit in

:17:43.:17:49.

the honourable gentleman the Member for Wellingborough, and other

:17:50.:17:52.

members. So the matter will come back to this House, and I have a

:17:53.:17:57.

feeling he will want it to come back to this House following what has

:17:58.:18:02.

just taken place, sooner rather than later. The matter cannot be avoided.

:18:03.:18:10.

Point of order. Further to this, it may be useful to know that I had an

:18:11.:18:14.

electronic message shortly before the motion was moved that said

:18:15.:18:20.

government payroll members were instructed not to oppose the

:18:21.:18:27.

creation of a business committee. So maybe the government might bring

:18:28.:18:30.

this forward as a motion put for the House. -- before the House. If the

:18:31.:18:44.

honourable gentleman spoke with his usual sincerity, some people may

:18:45.:18:52.

think he displayed an optimism worthy of. Doctor Pangloss. I had

:18:53.:19:08.

not noticed anyone displaying any great earnestness to stick to its

:19:09.:19:13.

commitment to step the proposals for a House committee. Maybe in this

:19:14.:19:14.

parliament it will have remembered that commitment. Maybe it will act

:19:15.:19:18.

on it of its own volition, and maybe it will be congealed and harangued

:19:19.:19:33.

into doing so. -- cajoled. We now come to the debatable backbench

:19:34.:19:37.

of proposed reforms to tax credits. of proposed reforms to tax credits.

:19:38.:19:48.

I have not selected the amendment. I move the motion. Thank you for

:19:49.:19:57.

calling me and for that ruling. I wish to begin by thanking the

:19:58.:20:03.

backbench committee who not only acted quickly and giving us this

:20:04.:20:10.

debate but also decided we should have the whole day to debate this

:20:11.:20:13.

issue, giving the importance of the matter is we are discussing the many

:20:14.:20:23.

those with the money. Order paper those with the money. Order paper

:20:24.:20:30.

has been signed by a large number of honourable members from all sides of

:20:31.:20:35.

the House. First of all we wish to call upon the government to give us

:20:36.:20:36.

more data, so that we can secondly more data, so that we can secondly

:20:37.:20:40.

consider the impact of the tax credit cuts on the lower paid

:20:41.:20:48.

constituents, and thirdly, given that now there is a debate raging in

:20:49.:20:54.

this House as there is outside, but the House have an opportunity of

:20:55.:20:58.

suggesting means by which the government might mitigate these

:20:59.:21:03.

measures, although the debate has now moved so fast I do not think the

:21:04.:21:07.

Treasury benches thinking merely of matters of mitigation. In this

:21:08.:21:14.

opening contribution, I want to touch three things. First of all to

:21:15.:21:21.

congratulate the House of Lords not in causing a constitutional crisis,

:21:22.:21:25.

but giving the government a well earned opportunity to think twice

:21:26.:21:27.

about its proposals. Secondly I about its proposals. Secondly I

:21:28.:21:32.

would like to outline the data we need in this place to consider how

:21:33.:21:38.

what was the biggest change in the budget is going to impact on our

:21:39.:21:42.

introducing proposals of not near introducing proposals of not near

:21:43.:21:49.

mitigation but of reformat members are putting forward now to the tax

:21:50.:21:54.

credit proposals. First of all the lucky break that has been dealt to

:21:55.:22:00.

the Chancellor. When the Lords rejected the statutory instrument

:22:01.:22:01.

giving the government authority to go ahead with the tax credit

:22:02.:22:10.

changes, I began to pity the young adviser in the Treasury who had

:22:11.:22:16.

thought up this idea of putting in as a statutory instrument rather

:22:17.:22:18.

than in the budget itself. While there may be issues we would

:22:19.:22:24.

disagree with Lloyd George, he did have a certain wisdom in deciding

:22:25.:22:28.

how to protect money resolutions in this House from interference from

:22:29.:22:41.

the other place. The convention growing up before was reaffirmed

:22:42.:22:43.

with legislative force they are that if a budget motion goes from this

:22:44.:22:47.

House, the other place might wish to debated, but they could not

:22:48.:22:51.

young adviser who suggested a young adviser who suggested a

:22:52.:23:05.

wonderful pleas not to debate here on the floor of the House but to

:23:06.:23:17.

committee stage upstairs. Now, as committee stage upstairs. Now, as

:23:18.:23:19.

more honourable members have gone to realise the consequences of the

:23:20.:23:20.

credit changes, I began to think, credit changes, I began to think,

:23:21.:23:25.

well, maybe the official is for promotion. It gives a wonderful

:23:26.:23:27.

cover for the government to engage cover for the government to engage

:23:28.:23:31.

with us here, and with our constituents, on what might best

:23:32.:23:33.

done, both in meeting the done, both in meeting the

:23:34.:23:36.

government's target to reduce the deficit, but also to make sure that

:23:37.:23:43.

disproportionately put on those with disproportionately put on those with

:23:44.:23:49.

the weakest shoulders. It is a huge opportunity that I hope we will see

:23:50.:23:55.

the actual changes. The movement has been made since the budget debate.

:23:56.:24:01.

Secondly, might I make the plea for the data that this House requires so

:24:02.:24:11.

that it can understand what is involved for all our constituents

:24:12.:24:16.

but also particularly those strivers who get up and work, who get -- do

:24:17.:24:21.

some of the least privileged jobs in society, and who governments of

:24:22.:24:23.

successive complexion have found it successive complexion have found

:24:24.:24:24.

good that we encourage rather than good that we encourage rather than

:24:25.:24:38.

is worth remarking, you have to go is worth remarking, you have to go

:24:39.:24:41.

back to Lloyd George's debate to look at the information he provided

:24:42.:24:44.

the House on who would pay for his 1909 budget. The budget in which he

:24:45.:24:49.

enshrined in our contribution -- Constitution that it was in this

:24:50.:24:57.

place and not the other place. He provided far more information than

:24:58.:24:59.

the government provided this year on who would be affected if his

:25:00.:25:05.

budget. I know it was simpler then because he made it plain that

:25:06.:25:09.

landlords would pay for these measures and the budget would not

:25:10.:25:12.

just be distribute to the poor, but those who run in trade unions -- not

:25:13.:25:20.

in trade unions and had no one to protect them. I hope the government

:25:21.:25:26.

will withdraw in that innovation in starving the House of necessary

:25:27.:25:29.

information. What I would like to see from the government is firstly,

:25:30.:25:39.

how do we break down amongst our groups 10% of the income groups, the

:25:40.:25:44.

impact of the 4.5 billion cut in tax credits. There are three big changes

:25:45.:26:01.

the government has wrought in the government statement. It has reduced

:26:02.:26:06.

the deficit from ?460 to next April owing its 380 -- 380 million. The

:26:07.:26:27.

child element is valued at ?200,780 a year, which will be lost. This is

:26:28.:26:34.

obviously affecting different groups in our constituents, and there is a

:26:35.:26:42.

unity across the House that the necessary reduction in the budget

:26:43.:26:53.

deficit should be born on those... We need to look at the measures

:26:54.:27:00.

collectively on each decile group. Also we need to look at the type,

:27:01.:27:11.

and each year up to there to the government, many of us wish to put

:27:12.:27:17.

into the analysis four compensatory measures which the government argues

:27:18.:27:22.

will mitigate if not all, most of those changes.

:27:23.:27:30.

The PM is very one axed in telling the country that eight out of ten

:27:31.:27:36.

people, families, will be better off as the result of this budget. Eight

:27:37.:27:42.

out of ten will be better off but practically all of our constituents

:27:43.:27:49.

who draw tax credits are in the two out of ten that have been made worse

:27:50.:27:55.

off. Hopefully we will see not only the careful analysis of the cuts on

:27:56.:27:59.

individual families but also to make it the rounded and fair analysis to

:28:00.:28:09.

make use of the four elements that are mitigating forces. One is the

:28:10.:28:14.

threshold. When the minister comes to reply maybe he will be able to

:28:15.:28:20.

tell as in fact whether all of those claiming tax credits are covered or

:28:21.:28:25.

is it only something like half? I may not have the opportunity to

:28:26.:28:30.

comment on the Minister to reply later on but I have huge regard for

:28:31.:28:36.

him. I also sympathise for the addition he is in. He is defending a

:28:37.:28:41.

government beef that is actually on the move. If I can quote a president

:28:42.:28:47.

which I think we'll cheer him, those who have been in this race for some

:28:48.:28:53.

time watched Mrs T and John Major, to the statue looked and defend the

:28:54.:29:00.

policy on cold weather payments. She decided the policy was to be changed

:29:01.:29:05.

that afternoon and instructed the Minister to come along and tell the

:29:06.:29:09.

House that what he had been telling them in the morning did not actually

:29:10.:29:13.

fall but much better news was in store. I do hope that when the

:29:14.:29:21.

Chancellor who is now in listening mode is thinking about what changes

:29:22.:29:26.

he will make, that he has a generous spirit also to cover the right

:29:27.:29:29.

honourable gentleman, he will allow the honourable gentleman to make the

:29:30.:29:34.

announcement of what the changes are rather than screw any of the kudos

:29:35.:29:43.

himself. One changes the increase in the tax threshold. Is it true that

:29:44.:29:49.

only half of those who will lose out in the tax credit changes will

:29:50.:29:52.

actually be compensated or partly compensated by the increase in the

:29:53.:29:59.

tax threshold? Secondly is probably the most important measure the

:30:00.:30:02.

government will make in this Parliament on a positive front. That

:30:03.:30:09.

is the very significant increase in child care for all our constituents

:30:10.:30:12.

who have children under five, the number of hours of childcare for the

:30:13.:30:19.

rudest two-year-olds and all three and four-year-olds. Part poorest.

:30:20.:30:26.

Will increase. The minister who will come to reply has probably the most

:30:27.:30:33.

important reef of any minister and takes more responsibility for life

:30:34.:30:39.

chances. If the Minister is serious about how we make sure the life

:30:40.:30:42.

chances of those children born in the poorest households are raised to

:30:43.:30:50.

the level of those in more privileged household, we will be

:30:51.:30:53.

looking very carefully at how that extra expenditure will be spent and

:30:54.:30:58.

looking at how our poorest and youngest constituents get the best

:30:59.:31:04.

deal out of that childcare rather than the worst. The second

:31:05.:31:07.

compensatory factor is the increasing childcare which I think

:31:08.:31:11.

is the most important social measured the government is likely to

:31:12.:31:16.

introduce at this Parliament. Thirdly, following closely on the

:31:17.:31:20.

heels is the increase of the national minimum wage. I am grateful

:31:21.:31:32.

to my right honourable friend who is making a characteristically

:31:33.:31:34.

thoughtful contribution but when he comes to discuss the amelioration of

:31:35.:31:39.

the third element, will he also recognised that many of the four

:31:40.:31:42.

years are actually going further than the schedule for the up left in

:31:43.:31:46.

the national living wage and that will be a massive welcome to many

:31:47.:31:49.

across this country and have a material impact on the four elements

:31:50.:31:56.

he is discussing? Many are and some are not, hence the importance of the

:31:57.:32:01.

Chancellor to make this a statutory requirement. It does show the rule

:32:02.:32:05.

of law when it is used cleverly in that the number of those employers

:32:06.:32:10.

who previously were not interested in introducing a national living

:32:11.:32:15.

wage, when I was corresponding with them, said he would not, have now

:32:16.:32:21.

been among those who have in a sense been very welcome in jumping the gun

:32:22.:32:29.

and actually introducing the Chancellor's national living wage

:32:30.:32:34.

before the period that they must do. Isn't there another problem for

:32:35.:32:39.

another sector of employers, the public sector, a number include my

:32:40.:32:45.

own counsel, they are committed to being the leading wheat but quite

:32:46.:32:48.

clearly they do not know whether the will be extra resources made

:32:49.:32:53.

available to increase the money, the funds they have two p that along

:32:54.:32:57.

with all other public sector employers? There is clearly a matter

:32:58.:33:05.

of resources but also in the analysis that I am arguing for from

:33:06.:33:09.

the Treasury bench today, many local authorities will be paying above

:33:10.:33:15.

this level so that when we are actually looking at what the impact

:33:16.:33:19.

of the national living wage with the, those workers, in a sense, have

:33:20.:33:23.

already got that money in that peep at it. The local authorities will be

:33:24.:33:29.

limited to the amount of increase they can make in the years we are

:33:30.:33:34.

considering. That pay packet. Many workers in the public sector is with

:33:35.:33:40.

not be the beneficiaries of the living wage and the significant

:33:41.:33:45.

increase in the p that they will get will be limited to the requirement

:33:46.:33:48.

the government has laid down and maybe that is a factor the

:33:49.:33:52.

government will use in the analysis we are asking for. Which he also

:33:53.:34:01.

accept that when the Dakar is compiled there should be an

:34:02.:34:04.

indication as to the impact that these changes will have on those who

:34:05.:34:09.

are under 25 and will not be covered out the national living wage?

:34:10.:34:17.

Indeed, the V is for us to have the range of analysis which has

:34:18.:34:21.

traditionally accompanied any budget statement that any member in this

:34:22.:34:24.

House, however long they have served, has come to expect. It is

:34:25.:34:33.

the fourth factor that members of the DWP select committee have

:34:34.:34:37.

emphasised. That is, there may be some wage push as a result of the

:34:38.:34:43.

introduction of a national living wage. Will that also be taken into

:34:44.:34:49.

account in the government analysis? I am slightly sceptical on the

:34:50.:34:54.

extent of that wage push because if one looks, again this is one of the

:34:55.:35:00.

problems of actually being in this House for some time, when I was

:35:01.:35:07.

initiated the low campaign the unit to campaign for a national minimum

:35:08.:35:11.

wage, the trade union edition then was actually to officially was it.

:35:12.:35:18.

On the grounds of opposing it was that there would be a mega- bill as

:35:19.:35:23.

we re-established differentials. If we actually look at the impact of

:35:24.:35:27.

the statutory minimum wage there has been a new huge bunching, there has

:35:28.:35:32.

not been this egg increase in differentials that some people

:35:33.:35:41.

feared or expected. I did we. I can call him my right honourable friend

:35:42.:35:44.

because we have known each other 40 years. Before he leaves the question

:35:45.:35:50.

of data that government provides, because it is an incredibly

:35:51.:35:54.

complicated area there are components that would not normally

:35:55.:35:59.

be provided, one is the national withdrawal rate of any scheme that

:36:00.:36:03.

the government puts into effect. Some spokesman for the government

:36:04.:36:06.

have already said people would work their way out of 30. Some of the

:36:07.:36:14.

effects of this seem like a 93% withdrawal rate which means you

:36:15.:36:18.

cannot work your way out of poverty, which she add that to his list? I

:36:19.:36:24.

would certainly do that. I want to come back to a proposal I initially

:36:25.:36:28.

made, I did not do it because I wanted to be dragged to the state

:36:29.:36:33.

and earned on it, I was anxious to begin a debate and one of the

:36:34.:36:36.

crucial thing is if one is asking the government to change their

:36:37.:36:41.

minds, someone who had made the proposals might change their mind

:36:42.:36:46.

but I will argue that any moment. I think the net withdrawal rate for

:36:47.:36:50.

any proposal is very crucial and given that we have in this House but

:36:51.:36:56.

it intolerable that people should pay more than 45% on their income

:36:57.:37:01.

tax, he would suffer that rate of withdrawal, it is not the bad rate

:37:02.:37:07.

to aim for four Bhullar people when we add income tax, national

:37:08.:37:13.

insurance and withdrawal of tax credits and other benefits. I newly

:37:14.:37:17.

wish to underscore the point that my right honourable friend has actually

:37:18.:37:25.

made. -- merely. I am very grateful, he has been generous. Will he look

:37:26.:37:30.

at the distribution geographically of the effects of these measures

:37:31.:37:36.

given that, as a member for Birkenhead, he will low that they

:37:37.:37:41.

are very few communities with the effects would be very widespread. It

:37:42.:37:48.

will not just be proved people but poorer communities that will be

:37:49.:37:54.

affected? Thank you very much. I note that the Treasury minister who

:37:55.:37:57.

is going to apply also has an interest in improving Treasury the

:37:58.:38:02.

tussle we can understand better tax and Treasury changes. I hope the

:38:03.:38:07.

plea he is making will not fall on deaf ears. I give way. Will he also

:38:08.:38:14.

take into account that we need something that is saleable to the

:38:15.:38:17.

people who are benefiting from tax credits? When we talk about marginal

:38:18.:38:23.

rates of return and thresholds and differentials, this is the sort of

:38:24.:38:27.

language that can completely confused not only the beneficiaries

:38:28.:38:32.

but also employers. Which he make it clear in negotiations with the

:38:33.:38:35.

Treasury that we try to make this saleable and simple and try to keep

:38:36.:38:40.

the concept is simple so that people who genuinely need tax credits can

:38:41.:38:45.

clean them because there is still massive under claiming of tax

:38:46.:38:51.

credits. The is and that very neatly leads me onto what might the

:38:52.:38:56.

proposals reform be? I wish briefly, if I need, to touch on four. The

:38:57.:39:02.

first is to make a plea to the government to recognise just how

:39:03.:39:07.

quickly the whole of this debate is changing and for them to take the

:39:08.:39:11.

advantage of that. In that, I think it is worth rooting on the record

:39:12.:39:20.

that tax credit is here, tax credit payments, as he was emphasising,

:39:21.:39:23.

argue for the long run. If we began this debate back in 2010, there was

:39:24.:39:30.

talk, and use the attic talk, but almost in no time here with the a

:39:31.:39:36.

new benefit, universal benefit, that would sweep up means testing and

:39:37.:39:42.

deliver eight seamless service to our constituents. If one is truthful

:39:43.:39:49.

but gentle about universal credit, it is regressed is very modest. I do

:39:50.:39:55.

not disagree with the Secretary Of State looking back at devious errors

:39:56.:40:00.

of trying to smash the forms through whatever the costs but someone in

:40:01.:40:07.

government must look at how slow the progress of roll-out is and question

:40:08.:40:13.

whether that will ever, ever see the light of day in a full flowering. If

:40:14.:40:18.

that is true, it does raise the question of how my tax credits be

:40:19.:40:23.

reshaped given that it is not for the chop, it is you for the longer

:40:24.:40:29.

term, universal credit is not going to, in the lifetime of this or maybe

:40:30.:40:34.

the next Parliament, make tax credits redundant. I think in the

:40:35.:40:40.

debates that we had begun to have here and certainly with the public,

:40:41.:40:48.

when I was recording a programme for This Morning every time I said a

:40:49.:40:52.

word they ought the public would not understand we had to stop and start

:40:53.:40:56.

filming again, I cannot tell you how long it to! So, we do have our own

:40:57.:41:03.

language which any sense is a shorthand that is not understood by

:41:04.:41:12.

people outside the. -- there. She's beaks with great authority and

:41:13.:41:16.

experience on these matters. If I could suggest to him that one of the

:41:17.:41:20.

very straightforward concepts that all of my constituents do understand

:41:21.:41:25.

is that there is a right minded intention to get rid of taxpayer

:41:26.:41:30.

subsidised poverty pay but in doing so we cannot actually say to people

:41:31.:41:37.

on low pay we are going to impoverish you on that journey. The

:41:38.:41:42.

very simple concept is let's talk about the instruments of doing it

:41:43.:41:47.

but actually it is about getting rid of poverty pay and lifting people up

:41:48.:41:52.

so that at some future date we do not have too rely on subsidy to make

:41:53.:41:59.

it worthwhile going to work? I could not agree more. We have not had a

:42:00.:42:10.

Chancellor who has decided to do is misplaced to take into the welfare

:42:11.:42:14.

system the role that our economy takes. That leads welfare reform

:42:15.:42:25.

into new areas about the new wage productivity, particularly amongst

:42:26.:42:27.

those who are lowest paid, so one can safely accept this and how we

:42:28.:42:36.

take it forward. My first comment hand suggestion

:42:37.:42:47.

stems from the fact that the government introduce a national

:42:48.:42:55.

living wage. When the people who thought of the tax credit got to

:42:56.:42:58.

work, no one ever thought the government would bring it forward.

:42:59.:43:05.

Therefore they incorporated in the system two aspects. One was about

:43:06.:43:12.

how we subsidise and make it a more decent level, and secondly, given

:43:13.:43:25.

the lifestyle and how life takes us, that those periods where every

:43:26.:43:28.

they have children. The tax credit they have children. The tax credit

:43:29.:43:35.

first league in asking the Treasury first league in asking the Treasury

:43:36.:43:36.

bench when it is thinking about what it does in only a few weeks' time

:43:37.:43:42.

and the Autumn Statement, is whether in fact we should not grow up and

:43:43.:43:49.

accept we are going to have a national living wage, and there be

:43:50.:43:57.

two aspects of tax credits which subsidise low wages but also take

:43:58.:44:01.

some responsibility of the costs of children that should be made more

:44:02.:44:07.

clear. There would be more support in the country of tax credit was

:44:08.:44:14.

about the support of children rather than the need to subsidise poverty

:44:15.:44:14.

wages. Give way. Would my honourable wages. Give way. Would my honourable

:44:15.:44:32.

friend clarify this is about tax credits and not child tax credit,

:44:33.:44:39.

which are two different benefits? The Prime Minister seems to

:44:40.:44:46.

misunderstand the difference between them because he said during the

:44:47.:44:54.

would not be touched, but of course, would not be touched, but of course,

:44:55.:45:03.

claw-back, the amount of money you claw-back, the amount of money you

:45:04.:45:11.

the threshold in which you begin to the threshold in which you begin to

:45:12.:45:19.

claw back tax credits and the rate claw back tax credits and the rate

:45:20.:45:19.

income, you are affecting the value income, you are affecting the value

:45:20.:45:20.

of the child tax credit. That I of the child tax credit. That I

:45:21.:45:20.

agree, there are two, and there are questions about the sense of having

:45:21.:45:23.

two benefits serving the same purpose. The second proposal, my

:45:24.:45:31.

guess is many Tory MPs have made privately to the government. I

:45:32.:45:36.

cannot imagine the whips on that side are different from those on the

:45:37.:45:39.

side. And if we had been in government making this proposal, the

:45:40.:45:43.

whips on the side would have been very busy fawning members last

:45:44.:45:52.

weekend to ask what individual and members would tolerate. One message

:45:53.:46:01.

bringing them in next April was not bringing them in next April was not

:46:02.:46:04.

acceptable. That would be one of the proposals. A third and more radical

:46:05.:46:17.

one that again unites backbenchers is whether these changes to tax

:46:18.:46:19.

credit should only apply to new claimants. It is one of the problems

:46:20.:46:27.

we have of her popularity in shoving around tax payers money without

:46:28.:46:33.

the music stops and people might the music stops and people might

:46:34.:46:40.

think there was not actually think there was not actually

:46:41.:46:42.

affordable, but in the meantime our constituents have responded to the

:46:43.:46:48.

very clear messages in forms of incentives and tax credits to what

:46:49.:46:53.

we wish them to do. And I think there is a sense, I have noticed it

:46:54.:47:01.

publicly and privately is it is a different ball to say there a new

:47:02.:47:06.

contract for people not claiming tax credits may. It is a totally

:47:07.:47:11.

different ball game to actually see you have responded, you have done

:47:12.:47:17.

all expected you to do, but I'm going to clobber you know for doing

:47:18.:47:30.

so. He's absolutely correct that you cannot do the people change the

:47:31.:47:39.

I also want to say that I have made I also want to say that I have made

:47:40.:47:43.

perfectly clear what's my view is that this cannot go ahead next

:47:44.:47:46.

April, and any mitigation coming in should be for mitigation. I have

:47:47.:47:51.

made that view known to people on my side. It must be mitigation that

:47:52.:47:59.

protects the purist households, -- poorest households, which we have a

:48:00.:48:07.

lot of ink East Yorkshire. Would he accept that the government has

:48:08.:48:13.

accepted the principle he has just discussed about the changes to the

:48:14.:48:16.

system. Coming to pension changes, those who are coming to pension age,

:48:17.:48:24.

the government has not expected their expectations to be changed, so

:48:25.:48:30.

-- in receipt of tax credits? There -- in receipt of tax credits? There

:48:31.:48:39.

will be very little opposition to the government introducing these

:48:40.:48:41.

reforms the people who are not claiming tax credits it is very

:48:42.:48:53.

different when this place has helped shape peoples lives expectations

:48:54.:48:58.

under drive to all of a sudden pulled official and say they are I

:48:59.:49:09.

think people here and in the country feel strongly. Give way. On this

:49:10.:49:12.

specific issue of dealing with changes in relation to people coming

:49:13.:49:17.

into the system, does he not realise it shows the complexity of the

:49:18.:49:19.

system. Someone who is played -- paying enough to be out of the tax

:49:20.:49:25.

system may be a lot and do take the job because of it does not work out

:49:26.:49:28.

they come back into the system as a claimant. I was waiting for the

:49:29.:49:35.

Treasury bench to point out the Treasury bench to point out the

:49:36.:49:39.

difficulties with all of these moves, but it is really important

:49:40.:49:48.

that the government is in the whole. We are tying to make suggestions of

:49:49.:49:59.

how to get out of it. We will not get support from the Minister who is

:50:00.:50:04.

humility from the government would humility from the government would

:50:05.:50:16.

reinforce the requirement for this reinforce the requirement for this

:50:17.:50:23.

not to be another simple yes and no measure but it ought to be part

:50:24.:50:24.

primary legislation? If you were the primary legislation? If you were the

:50:25.:50:31.

Chancellor, you could make the Lords agreed to the new system. If it was

:50:32.:50:37.

an SI that the House cheered on its way to the other place, maybe that

:50:38.:50:38.

would be wise. If it was an SI in would be wise. If it was an SI in

:50:39.:50:43.

which there was deep disagreement which there was deep disagreement

:50:44.:50:46.

particularly on the government side to the proposal, I think it would be

:50:47.:50:55.

unwise not to do so. I give way. Isn't there also were here for a

:50:56.:50:59.

little bit of forethought and pre-emption. We're six months into a

:51:00.:51:05.

five-year Parliament. This is the first of many changes that may

:51:06.:51:08.

happen. Could he stressed that Parliament can be seen as a partner

:51:09.:51:15.

in this process, and rather than having a crisis management approach

:51:16.:51:22.

to this policy, can't we involve the Treasury Select Committee,

:51:23.:51:26.

colleagues in both houses, where the Treasury sets the object of but we

:51:27.:51:29.

say something to help them on their way? We know there has been a

:51:30.:51:31.

general election and they are entitled to get there laws, but to

:51:32.:51:36.

use Parliament as a partner rather than the constant crisis management.

:51:37.:51:48.

glorious opportunity to have a glorious opportunity to have a

:51:49.:52:02.

Chancellor to get it right, to change his image and to become a

:52:03.:52:11.

much more serious reformer on tax and benefit France. I am sure he did

:52:12.:52:21.

not want to land himself, but now he not want to land himself, but now he

:52:22.:52:29.

optimistic on the partnerships he optimistic on the partnerships

:52:30.:52:30.

can build on the way my right can build on the way my right

:52:31.:52:30.

honourable friend has spoken, but honourable friend has spoken, but

:52:31.:52:31.

also the opportunity it gives him, given that it takes into account

:52:32.:52:31.

effect of the welfare effect on the effect of the welfare effect on the

:52:32.:52:32.

wonder whether he has realised how wonder whether he has realised how

:52:33.:52:32.

significant that change is and could significant that change is and could

:52:33.:52:33.

be. If the members would allow me the fourth suggestion, which is one

:52:34.:52:43.

that I put forward and wish to attack no. This is largely to get

:52:44.:52:50.

the debate going. To take the Chancellor serious, reform should be

:52:51.:53:03.

possible to do it at zero cost, possible to do it at zero cost,

:53:04.:53:11.

possible to raise thresholds to the possible to raise thresholds to the

:53:12.:53:12.

national minimum wage at zero cost, national minimum wage at zero cost,

:53:13.:53:12.

but it will require an even greater but it will require an even greater

:53:13.:53:13.

penalty in the loss of tax credit and people above. There is not a

:53:14.:53:18.

great deal of support for the idea, but merely to stress that when we

:53:19.:53:26.

had this great huge uprising of the abolition of the 10p, the government

:53:27.:53:26.

was adamant it was not going to was adamant it was not going to

:53:27.:53:33.

big concessions, huge sums of money big concessions, huge sums of money

:53:34.:53:36.

were found at the Treasury to go were found at the Treasury to go

:53:37.:53:42.

everywhere but to help the 10p everywhere but to help the 10p

:53:43.:53:44.

people. Therefore, supposing the Chancellor did want to go down this

:53:45.:53:48.

zero cost, it is now clear he is going to put some extra money into

:53:49.:53:54.

the whole operation. -- the whole operation, it should go into those

:53:55.:54:01.

who will lose, not to us, who would benefit if the Chancellor raised the

:54:02.:54:05.

tax threshold further on increased the National Insurance threshold.

:54:06.:54:12.

Last quick point, not because I do not want to develop it further, but

:54:13.:54:16.

because I am conscious of large numbers of people wanting to

:54:17.:54:22.

participate. The government is going to give up 4.5 billion pounds in

:54:23.:54:27.

savings towards a deficit production, supplement money come

:54:28.:54:28.

from? I wish to suggest two areas. from? I wish to suggest two areas.

:54:29.:54:36.

One I have lifted from the tragedy because it is now briefing the media

:54:37.:54:43.

that one possible way of finding the actual resources, and what the Tory

:54:44.:54:50.

minimum delay in staged introduction minimum delay in staged introduction

:54:51.:54:58.

of this reform would be to have a smaller budget surplus by 2020. That

:54:59.:55:03.

certainly seems to be a possibility from the Treasury, so I have put it

:55:04.:55:13.

forward. The second proposal I have is that it is very interesting that

:55:14.:55:18.

the Chancellor has asked for views on how we might reform pension tax

:55:19.:55:25.

relief. There are huge sums of money involved here. If we abolished it

:55:26.:55:31.

overnight, and I am not advocating it, I do not think we should treat

:55:32.:55:35.

people who are higher up the income scale in the same horrible way the

:55:36.:55:40.

government was proposing to treat those on tax credits, I think people

:55:41.:55:42.

need time when government starts changing incentives, but if we do

:55:43.:55:51.

change overnight, we are talking about an extra ?34 billion. These

:55:52.:55:56.

are huge sums of money. If we put in 15% of the tax concession 31, it

:55:57.:56:01.

would be over 15 billion. I merely raise this issue because I think the

:56:02.:56:07.

government in this consultation about pension tax relief has not

:56:08.:56:21.

really got up to speed with this. Government had given up the ghost of

:56:22.:56:25.

which would take people off means which would take people off means

:56:26.:56:42.

save more so that they would not be save more so that they would not be

:56:43.:56:45.

in old age. The government is now in old age. The government is now

:56:46.:56:47.

introducing a basic state pension, introducing a basic state pension,

:56:48.:56:47.

which will for the first time ever have that achievement. I make way.

:56:48.:56:50.

LAUGHTER I have never seen that before! I

:56:51.:57:06.

thought if you were on your feet you had the right in the House and you

:57:07.:57:09.

were probably speaking, but there we are.

:57:10.:57:18.

Sometimes Government are very slow at looking how one really radical

:57:19.:57:23.

reform will knock on other parts of their programme. I do not think the

:57:24.:57:29.

Government is taking into account just what resources they begin to

:57:30.:57:33.

unlock, now that we have a pension that is going to come in, which will

:57:34.:57:39.

for the vast majority of people give them a pension that takes them off

:57:40.:57:45.

means-tested assistance. Therefore, the reasons for bribing people to

:57:46.:57:50.

save in particular ways really falls to the ground, and that does begin

:57:51.:57:58.

to unlock huge, huge sums of money. So, I haven't come making proposals

:57:59.:58:01.

without suggesting where money might come from. But I want to end, and I

:58:02.:58:09.

want to end on what these tax credit changes mean to our constituents if

:58:10.:58:14.

we are not successful today in convincing the Government very

:58:15.:58:16.

radically to rethink their proposals.

:58:17.:58:21.

Talking to constituents, and talking to other people's constituents in

:58:22.:58:27.

television programmes, you cannot come away without being incredibly

:58:28.:58:31.

conscious of the fear that people are suffering, about what these

:58:32.:58:36.

effects will actually do to them. People who we should be saluting and

:58:37.:58:42.

cheering, are sick with worry about how they are going to make ends

:58:43.:58:49.

meet, whether they are going to lose their homes, whether the mortgages

:58:50.:58:53.

can be, the interest on mortgages be repaid. Let alone the whole issues

:58:54.:58:58.

ability protecting in a proper way their own children. While it is

:58:59.:59:04.

important that we some time use technical language as a shorthand, I

:59:05.:59:09.

am sure in this debate we are never ever going to forget what this is

:59:10.:59:13.

about. This is about our constituents, about some of our most

:59:14.:59:18.

vulnerable constituents, and about a whole number of our vulnerable

:59:19.:59:22.

constituents, for their efforts in working we should be salutes and not

:59:23.:59:26.

handing out this sentence which terrifies them. So for this reason,

:59:27.:59:29.

I hope the House is going to come to one mind at the end, and pass our

:59:30.:59:35.

resolution and we get a responsive, very clear response from the

:59:36.:59:41.

Treasury bench. Before I call the next speaker I

:59:42.:59:45.

will impose a time limit of seven minutes. There are 30 members trying

:59:46.:59:52.

to catch the chair's eye plus three front bench contribution, we will

:59:53.:59:55.

start with seven minute, with that Steven mechanic part land.

:59:56.:00:02.

Thank you. It's a great pleasure to follow the Right Honourable member

:00:03.:00:04.

for Birkenhead who has spoken a lot of sense so far, I would like to

:00:05.:00:10.

join his thanks in thanking the backbench committee for allowing us

:00:11.:00:14.

to is a full day to debate the issue. I fully support the motion

:00:15.:00:19.

put down and I was delighted to put my name to it. I voted against the

:00:20.:00:23.

statutory instrument because I could not support the Government. It

:00:24.:00:29.

wasn't an easy thing to do. Am a Conservative Party MP, I did not

:00:30.:00:32.

feel I could support the Government on the statutory instrument. I

:00:33.:00:38.

support a high wage and low tax, a low welfare society, but I believe

:00:39.:00:42.

the tax credits need to be reformed. They cost over ?30 billion a year.

:00:43.:00:46.

They have snowballed. I have families who come to my surgeries

:00:47.:00:50.

all the time who are very upset about the fact that no two families

:00:51.:00:56.

are treated the same. There are huge overpayment, underpayment is an

:00:57.:00:59.

incredibly complicated system. A billion is lost a year in fraud.

:01:00.:01:03.

There are huge issues with the tax credit system but the problem was

:01:04.:01:06.

the impact it was going to have on those families with the lowest

:01:07.:01:12.

incomes, so, I accept, within the manifesto we said we would reduce

:01:13.:01:16.

the bell fair bill by 12 billion that will is something we immediate

:01:17.:01:20.

to look at. I will come on to that later. When we look at unemployment

:01:21.:01:25.

benefit, a lot the debate is often round how well fair is made up of

:01:26.:01:31.

unemployment. They make up a small proportion of the actual benefits

:01:32.:01:37.

bill, in total. For example, the welfare cap benefit cap reducing

:01:38.:01:42.

from 26,000 a year to 23,000 a year, which is popular on the doorsteps

:01:43.:01:47.

during the election campaign. It will save less than ?100 million

:01:48.:01:52.

because it affects less than 100 Sir Philip Hampton in the whole of the

:01:53.:01:59.

-- 100,000 families in the whole of the UK. I stood up for those

:02:00.:02:05.

families, that I believe Labour have left behind. I believed those

:02:06.:02:09.

families who occupy the centre ground I want to occupy the Prime

:02:10.:02:13.

Minister and the Chancellor spoke in their conference speeches about

:02:14.:02:16.

wanting to occupy that centre ground, those families who get up,

:02:17.:02:19.

and go to work, they are trying to do the right thing, they are trying

:02:20.:02:23.

to support their families, they are trying to work themselves out of

:02:24.:02:26.

poverty. They are the families that I support and the families I am

:02:27.:02:30.

happy to fight for. They are the families that I voted against the

:02:31.:02:35.

statutory instrument for, in my constituency. And across the United

:02:36.:02:39.

Kingdom. Why have I been so vocal on this? I cannot believe the impact of

:02:40.:02:46.

the changes was fully understood. The Right Honourable member for

:02:47.:02:49.

Birkenhead gave a good critique. One of the thes I want to focus on is

:02:50.:02:54.

the reduction in the threshold, where tax credits you can apply for

:02:55.:03:01.

them and receive them. The reduction from ?6420 down to ?3850, that is an

:03:02.:03:09.

instant ?1200 cut. Anybody who earns over 4628 pound will be hit

:03:10.:03:12.

straightaway. It is far too up many of a blunt instrument for me. So, I

:03:13.:03:18.

have used the example of a teaching assistant earning maybe ?11,000 a

:03:19.:03:22.

year. They have restrictions on the hours they can work. They do a

:03:23.:03:26.

valuable job, educating the next generation of society, future

:03:27.:03:29.

leaders in business and everything else. I am very proud of the work

:03:30.:03:33.

they do. I make no bone, my wife is a primary school teacher. I am proud

:03:34.:03:39.

of her. My sister a secondary school teacher. They do a great job. How

:03:40.:03:44.

are they expected to go out and make up that, be about a ?1400 cut to

:03:45.:03:48.

their income? It is not possible. And for me, it was too much of a cut

:03:49.:03:55.

all in one go. The tapering from 41% up to 48, that was only, that adds

:03:56.:04:01.

only 2 or ?300 in terms of a cut. The original threshold is the ?1200

:04:02.:04:06.

cut. That is the bit I cannot support, that is the bit, why I had

:04:07.:04:09.

to vote against the statutory instrument. Why I have not been able

:04:10.:04:15.

to support the Government in the lobbies since then. Happy to give

:04:16.:04:20.

way. I thank my honourable friend for giving way. Does he agree that a

:04:21.:04:26.

basic test of the fairness of the introduction of this package is that

:04:27.:04:29.

the painful part of the package, such as the reduction in the

:04:30.:04:33.

threshold that he highlights shouldn't be introduced so up many

:04:34.:04:39.

more quickly than the pollstive that the increase in the living wage and

:04:40.:04:43.

personal allowance and other benefits that form part of the

:04:44.:04:50.

package? I agree with the honourable gentleman as members can imagine.

:04:51.:04:54.

For me, I would like to point out on that current mitigation, if we talk

:04:55.:04:58.

about this teaching assistant or the cleaner, people in society who are

:04:59.:05:02.

doing a great job for us, the people we need to reach out to. Those

:05:03.:05:10.

people who are going to have to... You mention teaching assistants and

:05:11.:05:13.

cleaners, I should probably declare an interest at this point, because I

:05:14.:05:19.

was a teacher who was in receipt of tax credit, and at the point with

:05:20.:05:24.

the scheme came into being, I was a single parent, and only that I had

:05:25.:05:29.

the tax credits, I was able to remain in employment. It was a very

:05:30.:05:34.

difficult time for me, and I was faced with the chance of actually

:05:35.:05:38.

going into unemployment, and being with my child or remaining in work.

:05:39.:05:43.

So it is not just teaching assistants and cleaner, thereby

:05:44.:05:47.

others in society as well. -- there are. I a degree. I am using

:05:48.:05:52.

the example of teaching assistants because I think it's a classic

:05:53.:05:54.

example and people who are constricted in the hours they are

:05:55.:05:58.

able to work, they can only have so many hours a week, for so many days

:05:59.:06:02.

throughout the year. In terms of the current mitigation, there has been

:06:03.:06:06.

talk about free childcare for three and four-year-olds and how that

:06:07.:06:11.

helps set it off. If you don't it doesn't help whatsoever. There is

:06:12.:06:16.

talk about the personal income tax allowance is increasing from 11,000

:06:17.:06:19.

to 12,500. I would like to see it go up to 15,000 by the end of the

:06:20.:06:23.

Parliament. If you don't earn more it is of no use to you. If you are

:06:24.:06:29.

on ?11,000 you are being hit with the 1200 cut. It is punishing people

:06:30.:06:33.

who are going out there and trying to work and do the right thing. That

:06:34.:06:36.

does not sit right with me, so that is something I could not support.

:06:37.:06:41.

Happy to give way. Thank you. Would he feel a taper

:06:42.:06:48.

sort of system would better suited for this particular policy? That is

:06:49.:06:54.

a possible solution, I am sure the Treasury is looking into it. I would

:06:55.:06:58.

like to work with the Treasury in how they can do this mitigation, and

:06:59.:07:04.

hope they can listen. Give him a job. I would like to point out I

:07:05.:07:10.

don't want a job. In reality, getting back to these people on

:07:11.:07:14.

?11,000 a year and thereabout, who will be particularly punished by

:07:15.:07:17.

this policy as it currently stands, I am pleased that the Chancellor is

:07:18.:07:19.

listening and though I don't agree with the House of Lords in what they

:07:20.:07:24.

are done, I accept it brought us to this particular position. I want the

:07:25.:07:28.

debate not to be focussed on constitutional issues but focussed

:07:29.:07:31.

on the loss of income for those people who won't have an ability to

:07:32.:07:35.

make that income up else where. That is where I want it focussed. How can

:07:36.:07:40.

we do this? We talk about the changes in personal income tax

:07:41.:07:43.

allowance, changes from 11 thousand thousand pounds to 12,500. That will

:07:44.:07:48.

cost about ?9 billion. One of the points I wanted to make was we spend

:07:49.:07:52.

over 00 billion a year as a vt go. It is as if we can't find this 4.4

:07:53.:07:57.

billion that will be the end of life as we know it, which we know is not

:07:58.:08:02.

going to be the case. There is a way it can be mitigated, dealt with, so

:08:03.:08:09.

how do we reform tax credits without punishing these who try to do the

:08:10.:08:14.

right thing. Three billion of that 4tttese who try to do the right

:08:15.:08:17.

thing. Three billion of that 4.4 billion saving is that original

:08:18.:08:22.

change in thresholds. Talking about the initial ?1200 cut. That broad

:08:23.:08:27.

instrument that punishes, you. Whether you are earning just over

:08:28.:08:33.

6,00 pounds or ?19,000. You are getting hit with that cut. It has to

:08:34.:08:36.

be mitigated, it has to be changed. We have to find a way round that

:08:37.:08:41.

original ?1200 cut. It is too much, too far. There is talk about a

:08:42.:08:45.

discretionary hardship fund. I would welcome that for the people who are

:08:46.:08:53.

struggling happy to give way. No, sorry. There has been a lot of

:08:54.:08:58.

talk about National Insurance. I would like to spiel not pay any on

:08:59.:09:05.

the first 11,000 of their income. It the first 11,000 of their income. It

:09:06.:09:11.

would be too expensive. For me it is how... Suggest to me if you take

:09:12.:09:15.

4ttt to me if you take 4.4 billion off people earning the lowest

:09:16.:09:19.

incomes, that is 4.4 billion straight out the economy because you

:09:20.:09:22.

are taking them out of their pockets and they use that money and go out

:09:23.:09:25.

and spend right away. So every pound you take off them you are taking out

:09:26.:09:28.

of the shops and the local economies. It doesn't seem to make

:09:29.:09:32.

sense. I want to work with the Treasury. I can be a prodigal son, I

:09:33.:09:40.

am sure I can be returned to the fold. Can I join you? You are a bit

:09:41.:09:49.

more than I am. There is huge fear out there in the public and we need

:09:50.:09:52.

to come forward with some proposals as fast as we can. I do want to urge

:09:53.:09:56.

the Treasury to talk to us, to listen to us, to work with us,

:09:57.:10:01.

because I warn the Treasury, if I think that don't come forward with

:10:02.:10:04.

mitigation proposals we are going to continue to raise the issue and we

:10:05.:10:08.

are going to continue trying to ensure we look after those poorest

:10:09.:10:12.

in society. I accept Britain has 1 % of the world's population, generates

:10:13.:10:17.

4% of the world's income and spends 7% on welfare spending. It is too

:10:18.:10:21.

much. I am proud of the Conservative Party, I will continue to put

:10:22.:10:28.

fairness at the heart of it. It is a real privilege to follow the

:10:29.:10:32.

contribution from the member for Stevenage. Other than that last

:10:33.:10:37.

sentence or two, I thought it was a tremendous speech. I do hope that

:10:38.:10:41.

the Treasury bench is listening to the words that he uttered, because I

:10:42.:10:45.

think there is widespread agreement within this chamber, and out new the

:10:46.:10:49.

country, about the points that he made. He made a very detailed

:10:50.:10:55.

analysis of the situation, and made some sensible suggestions, that I

:10:56.:10:59.

think we can all support, so I hope you are able to return to the fold,

:11:00.:11:05.

because we would like to see the Chancellor dig himself out of this

:11:06.:11:08.

hole he has created for himself. He has certainly got himself in a real

:11:09.:11:12.

situation here, we are fascinated to Woolwich how he gets himself out of

:11:13.:11:17.

it. -- to watch. I think the Lords did him a favour there. I think had

:11:18.:11:24.

this whole thing pass, the anger in this nation, these changes, would be

:11:25.:11:29.

something we not seen, certainly in my adult life, and I think the

:11:30.:11:32.

Government in a sense is being let off the hook now, in that it has an

:11:33.:11:38.

opportunity to dream up some mitigation and try and put this

:11:39.:11:42.

awful mess right, but they need to hurry up, because the fear of what

:11:43.:11:47.

is going to happen and the uncertainty about what is going to

:11:48.:11:49.

happen, is already out there. I spent Saturday morning in

:11:50.:11:59.

Darlington talking to residents about the changes to tax credits.

:12:00.:12:03.

And they already know what is happening. They are already

:12:04.:12:07.

worried, they are already looking at their incomes, they are already

:12:08.:12:11.

changing decisions and plans and financial commitments for the

:12:12.:12:15.

future, and making decisions on employment already. So the

:12:16.:12:20.

government needs to get on with this and come up with some decent ideas

:12:21.:12:24.

that will actually work and mitigate against the very, the damage that is

:12:25.:12:31.

being done that was so cleverly and successfully outlined by the member

:12:32.:12:35.

for Birkenhead when he proposed this debate. I will give way. Isn't one

:12:36.:12:44.

of the major problems the speed in which the tax credits cut is coming

:12:45.:12:49.

in, balanced with the speed with the national minimum wage will rise, as

:12:50.:12:54.

was said to me, it feels like they are removing the life belt before

:12:55.:12:57.

the lifeboat has arrived. I think that will be one of the quotes of

:12:58.:13:04.

the day, that is a very good way of putting this. I am speaking here on

:13:05.:13:13.

behalf of the 7200 families in my constituency who care for the 3900

:13:14.:13:18.

children who will be losing out as a result of these changes. And we

:13:19.:13:25.

really are, when the government brings forward whatever ideas it is

:13:26.:13:27.

going to come up with in mitigation, we must have the information we need

:13:28.:13:35.

in order to assess whether the idea is to mitigate the impact are

:13:36.:13:40.

actually going to be effective. The member for Birkenhead outlined the

:13:41.:13:44.

data that he would like to see, and I would like to see a regional

:13:45.:13:50.

distribution of this. I suspect that communities like the one I represent

:13:51.:13:57.

where wages are low, will be impacted more heavily than other

:13:58.:14:00.

parts of the country. I am also interested in the gender impact of

:14:01.:14:05.

these changes, and I would like to see how much debt the government

:14:06.:14:09.

believes is being serviced by incomes that are in part made up of

:14:10.:14:15.

tax credits. I suspect that there are mortgages, there are car loans,

:14:16.:14:21.

debt are other personal debts, credit cards, being paid back on the

:14:22.:14:27.

back of tax credits. I thank my honourable friend for giving way,

:14:28.:14:30.

but the problem is about to get worse, because there are people on

:14:31.:14:36.

zero hour contracts that cannot get tax credits. I think he makes a very

:14:37.:14:42.

good point and I think it is for the Treasury bench to respond to that

:14:43.:14:48.

intervention and I look forward to hearing the reply. This is about

:14:49.:14:53.

children, and it costs an enormous amount to raise a child as many of

:14:54.:14:57.

us here will know from personal experience. I have read it can take

:14:58.:15:04.

between 100 and ?150,000 to raise a child, and child benefit, it did not

:15:05.:15:10.

meet ten or 15% of that cost for those people who claim it. This is a

:15:11.:15:14.

contribution from towards the cost of raising children. I will give

:15:15.:15:25.

way. There are some children who will benefit from these changes,

:15:26.:15:31.

they are the children of dead millionaires, who will get ?1

:15:32.:15:34.

million extra tax-free, does she think that is the fair transfer,

:15:35.:15:38.

from the poorest to the rich in the country? No, I do not, that is a

:15:39.:15:47.

pertinent point. I know we will be challenged as to whether money can

:15:48.:15:50.

be found to make this change, you can change it and find it from

:15:51.:15:56.

changes to tax relief in pensions and changes in inheritance tax which

:15:57.:16:01.

we remain opposed to. I would like to illustrate the points I have made

:16:02.:16:06.

in the limited time we have been given. We have had quite a

:16:07.:16:09.

high-level discussion so far and this is actually about real people.

:16:10.:16:13.

Very rarely can you find a constituent who is willing to have

:16:14.:16:18.

their name and personal information, particularly about a financial

:16:19.:16:21.

issue, shared in the House of Commons. But I have had no

:16:22.:16:30.

difficulty at all in finding people in Darlington who are willing to

:16:31.:16:33.

have their name and details to become, they would see it, as

:16:34.:16:37.

becoming the poster people for these campaigns because they are so angry

:16:38.:16:42.

about what the government is trying to do to them. Becky in my

:16:43.:16:46.

constituency, she lives in the red Hall estate. She earns around

:16:47.:16:53.

?16,500 per year. She is single parent and her son is eight years

:16:54.:17:03.

old. She stands to lose ?1950 tax credits per year. She said to me

:17:04.:17:09.

that she is already struggling, she has difficulty paying for essentials

:17:10.:17:13.

like heating and electricity will stop she will not seek a change to

:17:14.:17:19.

her salary when the wages increase. And she will not benefit from the

:17:20.:17:22.

childcare changes because her son is eight years old. Eight-year-olds, I

:17:23.:17:28.

can tell the Minister, no cheaper to run than a 4 -year-old. Amen! She

:17:29.:17:38.

has already had to cut out extras, she can no longer buy herself

:17:39.:17:41.

clothes and the reduction in income will have to come from the money she

:17:42.:17:47.

spends on food or heating her home. The government, this is her words,

:17:48.:17:52.

the government have told us that working was the way forward out of

:17:53.:17:57.

poverty and yet these changes will put me and my son into poverty. The

:17:58.:18:02.

very real choice she will have to make is between heating and feeding

:18:03.:18:09.

her son, but it is also going to be, for many people, between working and

:18:10.:18:14.

not working. And that is what concerns me the most. I want

:18:15.:18:20.

everybody who can work in my constituency to get out and get a

:18:21.:18:24.

job. Because it is good for them and it is good for their kids. But it

:18:25.:18:30.

should never, ever, ever be, you should never be better off on

:18:31.:18:34.

benefits than you are in work. And that will be the effect of this

:18:35.:18:41.

change. I will give way. I am so grateful for giving way. Her speech

:18:42.:18:45.

follows in the tradition of Eleanor Rathbone, who was here from 1929 in

:18:46.:18:52.

the earliest of parliaments as a woman, and campaigned for fan in the

:18:53.:18:54.

earliest of parliaments as a woman, and campaigned for constituents is

:18:55.:19:01.

because in this country, we have topped up incomes understanding that

:19:02.:19:05.

position for poor people and children actually four successive

:19:06.:19:09.

governments. Churchill extended the system on family allowances. She

:19:10.:19:15.

makes a fantastic speech. But in her last point, does she also accent

:19:16.:19:20.

that people will take one, two, three jobs, and we will have

:19:21.:19:26.

latchkey kids raising themselves? I am grateful for that information, I

:19:27.:19:29.

wish he had made it a little bit shorter! I am speaking on but half

:19:30.:19:40.

of the cooks, cleans, shop assistants, shop staff, call centre

:19:41.:19:45.

workers and factory workers. This government has got to take the

:19:46.:19:48.

opportunity that it has been granted by the other place and use that

:19:49.:19:57.

opportunity to put this right. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. It is a

:19:58.:20:00.

pleasure to speak in this debate and can I congratulate the member for

:20:01.:20:05.

Birkenhead for securing the debate in support of others. This is an

:20:06.:20:09.

opportune moment to discuss this in more depth, and possibly with eight

:20:10.:20:15.

degree of unanimously across the benches, because this is a conflict

:20:16.:20:18.

area that needs to be looked at carefully. We have heard talk of the

:20:19.:20:22.

need for immediate mitigation. Really what we need to do is look at

:20:23.:20:27.

this issue again. 18 years ago, the Right Honourable member for

:20:28.:20:30.

Birkenhead was asked to think the unthinkable, tried to do so and was

:20:31.:20:37.

properly slacked for his efforts. This is as corrugated now as it was

:20:38.:20:43.

-- and was promptly sacked for his efforts. We need to look very

:20:44.:20:49.

carefully at creating a system that supports working families and people

:20:50.:20:52.

who are raising children, that supports people who want to do the

:20:53.:20:55.

right thing. We need to create a system which does not penalised

:20:56.:21:01.

those buried people due to very high reduction rates and a change that

:21:02.:21:05.

would undoubtedly penalised the poorest workers in society. I find

:21:06.:21:09.

myself in race into this issue feeling disappointed to say the

:21:10.:21:15.

least that I am not in agreement with my government, the first five

:21:16.:21:18.

years in this place, I think the changes we brought forward to the

:21:19.:21:21.

welfare state, the way in which we tried to make work pay for people

:21:22.:21:25.

who were willing to go out and contribute to their communities and

:21:26.:21:28.

look after their families, I was proud of those changes. The most

:21:29.:21:33.

moving events of my time in Parliament was when I actually

:21:34.:21:36.

visited a Tesco store in Toxteth, and I have said this before, and I

:21:37.:21:44.

met people who were there on a DWP effort to get people back into work.

:21:45.:21:48.

And the pride and passion that those individuals had and the fact that

:21:49.:21:52.

they were now working and supporting their own families was testament to

:21:53.:21:55.

the changes that we were making and the fact that those changes were

:21:56.:21:59.

making a real difference. There is no doubt the tax credits, whether we

:22:00.:22:04.

like them or not, and the system had undoubtedly ballooned out of

:22:05.:22:07.

control, but whether we like to tax credits or not, they are an

:22:08.:22:10.

important element of supporting those very workers who are willing

:22:11.:22:15.

to work but who have wages who are not competitive. We come to a

:22:16.:22:20.

situation in which we had a Budget which was important in many ways.

:22:21.:22:24.

The decision to introduce a new minimum living wage is a decision we

:22:25.:22:27.

should all applaud but there is clearly a discrepancy between the

:22:28.:22:31.

timing of the changes to the new living way, for example, and the

:22:32.:22:36.

changes to the tax credit system. There is no balance to the way in

:22:37.:22:40.

which wages will increase and the fact that the tax credits will be

:22:41.:22:44.

withdrawn immediately. I welcome the fact that the Treasury is allowing

:22:45.:22:49.

time for the new living wage to settle in. I represent a

:22:50.:22:52.

constituency of small businesses and self traders, I have the highest

:22:53.:23:03.

proportion of self-employed people in my constituency. The small

:23:04.:23:06.

businesses understand we need to move higher wage economy and they

:23:07.:23:10.

need to pay their staff properly. Many of them take pride in the fact

:23:11.:23:13.

that they pay above the minimum wage as a main means of keeping staff in

:23:14.:23:19.

place. But the small businesses appreciate the fact that the

:23:20.:23:21.

government is giving them time to adapt and change their businesses

:23:22.:23:24.

and business models in order to be able to pay their staff more. It is

:23:25.:23:30.

therefore in my view difficult to understand why we were not able to

:23:31.:23:34.

give tax credit recipients the same time to adapt and change into the

:23:35.:23:37.

situation we were proposing. The decision to cut so quickly and so

:23:38.:23:42.

deeply was clearly problematic and the response in both houses has

:23:43.:23:50.

showing people were concerned. In terms of how do we move forward, the

:23:51.:23:54.

one thing we have to be aware of is we need to educate mothers of this

:23:55.:23:59.

house. I think the worst example of a crass comment in this issue was

:24:00.:24:04.

the Conservative MP who stated quite clearly that if somebody loses ?30

:24:05.:24:09.

per week, they simply need to go out and work an extra three hours. I was

:24:10.:24:15.

genuinely shocked by that comment because with an 80% marginal

:24:16.:24:22.

reduction, an individual on ?10 per hour would need to find 15 hours

:24:23.:24:27.

work to make up that loss. Where we have that kind of comment coming

:24:28.:24:32.

from members who claim to understand their constituents, we need to

:24:33.:24:36.

despair. We need to understand the trap that we have. I was proud of

:24:37.:24:40.

the fact that universal credit was trying to reduce the marginal rate.

:24:41.:24:44.

I was proud of the fact that when I sat on the welfare bill committee,

:24:45.:24:48.

it was stated categorically by the minister that the aim would be to

:24:49.:24:52.

reduce even further the marginal reduction rate, where funds allowed.

:24:53.:24:56.

And the Prime Minister stated categorically that the Conservative

:24:57.:25:01.

Party should be as concerned, even if not more concerned, about

:25:02.:25:06.

marginal eduction rates of 95p that we inherited than the 50p high rate

:25:07.:25:12.

of tax. It was very disappointing to see that incentive be changed as we

:25:13.:25:19.

saw in these proposals. We need to look carefully at what message we

:25:20.:25:22.

are sending to people when we say to them, go out and work an extra

:25:23.:25:26.

couple of hours, but we will take 80% of your efforts. That is

:25:27.:25:30.

something we need to be careful about. That is why when the talk

:25:31.:25:34.

about mitigation, it is short-term response. Long-term, we need to to

:25:35.:25:39.

to about the whole system. -- look at the whole system. I have had

:25:40.:25:44.

numerous conversations with ministers, I am grateful to the

:25:45.:25:47.

Minister on the government bench, who called me up and made my

:25:48.:25:55.

difficulties in a long queue on the roads in Wales more bearable by

:25:56.:25:59.

discussing tax credits with me. The Treasury have shown they are willing

:26:00.:26:03.

to listen. We need to make sure in the long term that we look carefully

:26:04.:26:07.

at how we create a system which is much more likely to support working

:26:08.:26:10.

families in a way which is constructive, but in the short-term

:26:11.:26:14.

he stated clearly that we should look carefully at how we can deal

:26:15.:26:20.

with his ?4.4 billion gap in the government finances. I do take the

:26:21.:26:23.

issue of the deficit seriously. One thing we need to think about is the

:26:24.:26:27.

way in which 70% of all the benefits from the increased personal

:26:28.:26:32.

allowances have gone to the highest paid in society, 70% has gone to the

:26:33.:26:36.

half who are in the richest side of the society. We need to ask clearly

:26:37.:26:45.

whether we can, in view of the fact that we are desperate to find 4.4

:26:46.:26:47.

billion, we need to ask, can we justify an extra 9 billion to

:26:48.:26:50.

increasingly personal allowance? That could mitigate in the

:26:51.:26:55.

short-term. But we need long-term plan as well.

:26:56.:27:00.

He makes a very important point about how little people keep for

:27:01.:27:06.

every pound extra they earn. I seem to recall that the Prime Minister

:27:07.:27:10.

once took to task Gordon Brown for that very issue. It is on film and

:27:11.:27:15.

you can look at it on YouTube. It is important about making work pay that

:27:16.:27:19.

people feel for every extra hour they work they are making a

:27:20.:27:22.

difference to their progression in their working lives. The starting

:27:23.:27:26.

point nor this debate is the Chancellor's ill formed proposals to

:27:27.:27:30.

reform Working Tax Credit. The truth is the distribution aspect of the

:27:31.:27:34.

tax credit cuts are severely regressive. It has shown that the

:27:35.:27:39.

national living wage touted as a solution to this at best undoes 20%

:27:40.:27:44.

of the damage. Today what I want to start with, is how the story really

:27:45.:27:50.

begin, because the story begins in 1997, when Labour came to power, the

:27:51.:27:56.

only help for families was child benefit, a married person's tax

:27:57.:27:59.

benefit and a child personal allowance. A small number of people

:28:00.:28:04.

with disabilities also received a disability working allowance. The

:28:05.:28:07.

Government then found that there were high rates of poverty among

:28:08.:28:11.

families with children and tax credits were thought to be a new

:28:12.:28:15.

mechanism to support those families into work as the best route out of

:28:16.:28:19.

poverty. The evidence is strong. That the more far-reaching tax

:28:20.:28:23.

credits and the introduction of help with childcare costs transformed the

:28:24.:28:28.

prospects for millions of families. One consequence was, one outcome was

:28:29.:28:33.

that the lone parent employment rate Rose, that until 2014 it is the

:28:34.:28:39.

highest on record. 65.7%. That is amazing and of course, a vast

:28:40.:28:43.

majority of the lone parents are women. Another outcome was that the

:28:44.:28:47.

tax credits reduced child poverty. DWP confirm in the first decade of

:28:48.:28:54.

tax credits child poverty fell dramatically as 1.1 million children

:28:55.:28:58.

were lifted out of poverty to 2010. Secondly they gave a benefit to

:28:59.:29:02.

employee, they are not simply a state hand out to bad employer. When

:29:03.:29:06.

most are setting wanes they are blind to the private tax credit

:29:07.:29:10.

details of their employees. What is more, they cannot pay one worker one

:29:11.:29:15.

wage and the next person a different rate because they claim tax credits.

:29:16.:29:21.

In most cases, the employer does not know. As a resolution report found

:29:22.:29:26.

this week, if the Government removes tax credits, the employer will not

:29:27.:29:31.

immediately step in to fill that void, regardless of the rises in the

:29:32.:29:33.

national minimum wage or the national living wage. The Government

:29:34.:29:38.

must know this, and it is wrong to suggest that the only beneficiaries

:29:39.:29:43.

of tax credits are bad employers. Second, we have to challenge and

:29:44.:29:47.

address the Chancellor's claim that the dost of tax credits have risen

:29:48.:29:53.

from 1 billion to 30 billion today. This summer the Chancellor stated

:29:54.:29:57.

the original tax credit system cost 1.1 billion in its first year, this

:29:58.:30:00.

year that cost has reached 30 billion. This claim is bogus.

:30:01.:30:08.

Articles by Declan Gaffney and Tim Blackwell show it relates to only

:30:09.:30:16.

the first reforms which began in October 199 and only covering three

:30:17.:30:20.

months of tax credit payment for a typical claimant. In its first full

:30:21.:30:25.

year, 2000-2001. The cost was more like 10.5 billion, not 1.1 billion.

:30:26.:30:29.

Which brings me to the question, of why the tax credit bill has

:30:30.:30:36.

increased. First, tax credits, a number of previously separate

:30:37.:30:38.

benefits and were more generous, I acknowledge that. But the tax

:30:39.:30:44.

credits we refer to today include childcare costs introduced in 2003

:30:45.:30:47.

which no previous Government had met, so yes, it was about

:30:48.:30:52.

challenging poverty pay, but as my honourable friend from Darlington

:30:53.:30:56.

has referred to in her speech, it was addressing for those many

:30:57.:30:59.

families, particularly women, the lone parent women, even if they were

:31:00.:31:04.

on a reasonable page wage, whatever reasonable is they couldn't afford

:31:05.:31:07.

to work because the amount of their wage that was being paid out in

:31:08.:31:11.

terms of childcare costs. Grateful. She is making a powerful

:31:12.:31:17.

case, does she agree with me that the important element about tax

:31:18.:31:21.

credits was it was a means of getting particularly lone parents

:31:22.:31:27.

into work. And Gingerbread have done aical I can lacing that a 5% rise

:31:28.:31:33.

saves the Treasury ?436 million. So it is a benefit to the wider

:31:34.:31:37.

economy, in itself, just simply getting lone parents in particular

:31:38.:31:40.

into the workplace. I agree. That is another thing

:31:41.:31:45.

missing from the debate. Is what are the impacts of the changes on other

:31:46.:31:49.

sectors of the economy, and the wellbeing and the economic

:31:50.:31:52.

opportunities it provides to people, through being in work. As I said,

:31:53.:31:58.

the employment rate has gone up to 67%, which is brilliant. And the

:31:59.:32:04.

worry is with these changes will it go back wards rather than improving

:32:05.:32:08.

further. The total tax credits families reserve relates to their

:32:09.:32:13.

income. The recession of 20082009 did have a dramatic effect on wages,

:32:14.:32:18.

as wages fell, many of those families, either qualify for tax

:32:19.:32:21.

credits or saw their tax credit rise. It is notable that during the

:32:22.:32:27.

John Major recession, unemployment rose to a peak of 10.7% by 1993.

:32:28.:32:34.

Whereas in the recession of 2008-9, many employers reduced hours or

:32:35.:32:38.

didn't increase pay in order to keep staff in, who. I sort of understand

:32:39.:32:42.

why they did that. I think in this House there were debates about how

:32:43.:32:45.

we did appreciate employers were trying to deal with the difficult

:32:46.:32:49.

situation but hold on to people in work. But, the resulting factor was

:32:50.:32:56.

more people who claim tax credits or their tax credit contribution rose

:32:57.:32:59.

in accordance with that. The other important fact, remember what I said

:33:00.:33:04.

about the John Major recession, in that recession, in the last

:33:05.:33:09.

recession, as a result of a number of factors and employers keeping

:33:10.:33:13.

people in work, unemployment only rose to 8.5%. Recent figures show

:33:14.:33:18.

the number of employees learning less -- earning less than the living

:33:19.:33:23.

wage has risen. Holding people in work, but those very same people

:33:24.:33:27.

needing more support through tax credits, this isn't a conspiracy,

:33:28.:33:32.

this is a reality of an economy adjusting to finding itself in

:33:33.:33:39.

difficult situations, and the state being there as a safety net to help

:33:40.:33:43.

them. Without tax credits the rise in unemployment in that most serious

:33:44.:33:46.

recession we have experienced could have been up many worse. I think

:33:47.:33:49.

that goes a long way to explain the cost of tax credits today. This

:33:50.:33:53.

week, given the voting in other place the Chancellor says he is in

:33:54.:33:57.

listening mode. We must address how we support people into work and to

:33:58.:34:01.

make progress to improve their living standards and the life

:34:02.:34:07.

chances of their children. I agree with everything my right honourable

:34:08.:34:09.

gentleman friend for Birkenhead said today. I won't repeat that. Let me

:34:10.:34:14.

add a final few points, in moving forward, I think there is a number

:34:15.:34:17.

of things that have to happen. First, the Government must be

:34:18.:34:22.

straight about the figures relating to tax credits, only then can we

:34:23.:34:26.

have a sensible conversation, second, the Chancellor needs to

:34:27.:34:30.

provide a proper assessment of the impact of any new proposals on

:34:31.:34:34.

incentives or disincentives to work for those who receive tax credit, I

:34:35.:34:38.

ask the Chancellor if he stood up for working people why this wasn't

:34:39.:34:41.

published with his last proposal. He didn't answer and that is because I

:34:42.:34:45.

feel he is afraid to face the facts. Third, the Chancellor needs to ask

:34:46.:34:50.

what any impact new proposals will have on child poverty. Fourthly, we

:34:51.:34:55.

need to look more widely across departments, at what support

:34:56.:34:58.

actually helps people to get into work, stay in work, and make

:34:59.:35:05.

progress in work. I founded the first all party group on childcare

:35:06.:35:09.

when I came into this place 18 years ago. It is still nod good enough for

:35:10.:35:14.

many working families. This easy are the questions I need answers for,

:35:15.:35:18.

for the 5300 families who are worried about the future of their

:35:19.:35:21.

tax credits and their ability to hold their head up high and say, I

:35:22.:35:25.

am in work, helping to support my children.

:35:26.:35:29.

It is a great pleasure to speak in the debate and can I thank the

:35:30.:35:38.

honourable member for Birkenhead to for initiating this debate. It has

:35:39.:35:44.

been very good. I also want to thank the contributions from the

:35:45.:35:49.

honourable member for Stevenage because I think, I, dare I say I am

:35:50.:35:54.

getting more mature in years, I am a chairman of a Select Committee, I

:35:55.:35:57.

can afford to be a bit more independent, but like I said, it is

:35:58.:36:02.

not always easy in furthering your ambitions in the party, if you stand

:36:03.:36:06.

up for what you believe to be right. I think we are standing up for what

:36:07.:36:10.

we believe to be right, because as far as I am concerned it is

:36:11.:36:16.

absolutely fundamental that people that work are better off than those

:36:17.:36:22.

that don't. I think if we get this wrong, it is absolutely for me, it

:36:23.:36:29.

is something I believe in. Everything I believe about the

:36:30.:36:31.

Conservative Party is in order to encourage people into work, and then

:36:32.:36:35.

they will be better off. And if we are not at all careful, this policy

:36:36.:36:41.

will drive people back on benefit, and it will go in the opposite

:36:42.:36:45.

direction that what we want, where we want to take people.

:36:46.:36:50.

I very much support what the Chancellor has done with taking

:36:51.:36:54.

millions of people out of tax, raising the threshold, halving the

:36:55.:36:58.

deficit and driving the economy. Creating vast amounts of employment

:36:59.:37:04.

in this country. I come from a constituency that only had 1%

:37:05.:37:08.

unemployment. But of course, what that hides is that we have got a lot

:37:09.:37:16.

of employment, but I have, let me check the actual figure, the average

:37:17.:37:22.

salary in Tiverton an Honiton for full and part-time employees is

:37:23.:37:28.

18,000 o 18700. The number of families claiming working and tax

:37:29.:37:32.

credits is over 22%. In addition the average house price

:37:33.:37:37.

in Tiverton and Honiton is round 190,000, because we have quite high

:37:38.:37:40.

prices in the constituency, because it is a beautiful part of the

:37:41.:37:45.

country to live. But we have got to make sure that we support those

:37:46.:37:53.

people that are working hard, in our constituencies across the cub tri.

:37:54.:37:56.

That is why this -- country. That is why this opportunity we have we need

:37:57.:38:00.

to take it and do something real with it. What, I disagree entirely

:38:01.:38:07.

with what the House of Lords did, but what it has done, as it has

:38:08.:38:11.

given us an opportunity to look again. And can I be so bold to say,

:38:12.:38:18.

Madam Deputy Speaker, you can have as many spin-doctors and clever

:38:19.:38:22.

people with figures as you like, but this the end, when it comes to the

:38:23.:38:28.

fact that when you on a low income, and you are relying on tax credits,

:38:29.:38:33.

when you know that money has been taken away from you, it is

:38:34.:38:37.

absolutely real. And so I think the Government and the Chancellor are in

:38:38.:38:42.

this, on this occasion, and I hate to have to say it does have to be

:38:43.:38:45.

absolutely certain as to how many people are going to be affected and

:38:46.:38:50.

what we are going to do about it. Because again, I very much support

:38:51.:38:57.

the national living wage. But again, the Government and the Chancellor

:38:58.:39:00.

needs to give all those small company, because many of us have

:39:01.:39:06.

very much small companies in our constituencies, which will need

:39:07.:39:12.

help, in order to be able to pay the national living wage. As people get

:39:13.:39:15.

more in their pockets and more from their employment. That is when we

:39:16.:39:21.

can reduce the tax credits, that is when we can reduce, if you like, the

:39:22.:39:26.

state subsidy on employment, because we all get that, we all know what

:39:27.:39:31.

has to be done, but we cannot do its in the speed that we are doing it,

:39:32.:39:36.

and drive perhaps millions of people and take money away from them, and

:39:37.:39:42.

of course, you know, in, it is simple arithmetic, if you are on a

:39:43.:39:48.

low salary, those ?1,000 or ?2,000, or ?1300, whatever it might be, is a

:39:49.:39:53.

huge amount of your actual disposal income. It is about disposable

:39:54.:39:58.

income. That is what we must remember, and so I am optimistic, I

:39:59.:40:02.

have always been optimistic in my life, because I believe teleis a

:40:03.:40:07.

solution. I believe there is is a solution because the Chancellor is a

:40:08.:40:11.

very clever man and he should listen and I am sure he is listening, and

:40:12.:40:16.

he will come back to this chamber, with some proposals, that will show

:40:17.:40:21.

that working people, hard-working people, whether they are cleaning,

:40:22.:40:26.

or whether they are classroom assistant, where whether they work

:40:27.:40:29.

in the Health Service, the private sector, whether they work in the

:40:30.:40:33.

tourism industry or whether they work on farms. They are all very

:40:34.:40:40.

hard-working people. We must be a party and a government that supports

:40:41.:40:45.

the hard-working person, and we have done that, up until now, and we have

:40:46.:40:50.

just lost our way, a little. And I think we can come back out of the

:40:51.:40:54.

wilderness, and I think we can put this right. I will give way to the

:40:55.:41:06.

honourable gentleman. I couldn't agree the honourable

:41:07.:41:10.

gentleman more and that is why I am here in politics today. It is to try

:41:11.:41:15.

and make that happen, and that is why I think there is many of us on

:41:16.:41:18.

this side of the House are prepared to stand up and be counted because

:41:19.:41:23.

it is right we do so, because our constituencies expect it and I

:41:24.:41:29.

believe that we can and yes, the Chancellor will say, we must

:41:30.:41:33.

eradicate the deficit. Yes, we must, but if we are six months later or

:41:34.:41:42.

dare I say it, a year late, in -- eradicating the deficit, people, I

:41:43.:41:46.

believe, will understand. If you are taking away yes I will give way.

:41:47.:41:52.

On that point you are absolutely right, and the thing that struck me

:41:53.:41:59.

so much in the last week, I have received hundreds of e-mails and

:42:00.:42:03.

letters. When we talk about debt and deficit, it is not the government's

:42:04.:42:07.

debt and deficit, it is the people's debt and deficit. I have

:42:08.:42:11.

had countless letters from wealthy people telling me that this is

:42:12.:42:15.

wrong. It is absolutely right that they are part of this conversation

:42:16.:42:19.

as well about how we repair the damage to our economy. It is their

:42:20.:42:23.

vote as much as the person who is losing money from tax credits. I

:42:24.:42:28.

thank her very much for her intervention. It is right, to coin a

:42:29.:42:32.

phrase, we are in it altogether. You must make sure that when we reduced

:42:33.:42:39.

the deficit, which we are doing very correctly, and we will get to

:42:40.:42:43.

balance the books as ultimately we must balance the books, you cannot

:42:44.:42:46.

go on borrowing forever because it will be our children and

:42:47.:42:49.

grandchildren and great-grandchildren, at this rate,

:42:50.:42:53.

that will pay that off. It has got to be fair as we do it, and I repeat

:42:54.:42:58.

and I do not apologise for repeating the fact that work must pay, and we

:42:59.:43:02.

must make sure that those in low-paid work can carry on their

:43:03.:43:10.

lives. On this issue of government debt, can I remind the government

:43:11.:43:17.

benches, 375 billion of that debt has been created as a consequence of

:43:18.:43:21.

quantitative easing. The Bank of England had to step in and use

:43:22.:43:25.

monetary policy measures because of the failure of fiscal measures by

:43:26.:43:33.

the government. I will get into an argument... I do not wish to get

:43:34.:43:40.

into an argument with him about quantitative easing, I would argue

:43:41.:43:42.

that we would not have the employment we do have at the moment

:43:43.:43:49.

as a result of those tools, we might have overused it but that is an

:43:50.:43:53.

argument for history. That is where we have got the economy smoothly and

:43:54.:43:57.

in the right direction. I make this final plea, and I am sure other

:43:58.:44:00.

members across the whole chamber will make this plea, please,

:44:01.:44:05.

Chancellor, look at this, look at how we mitigate, and how we actually

:44:06.:44:11.

raise the national living wage so that we get people earning more as

:44:12.:44:18.

we take away those tax credits so people will accept that. What we

:44:19.:44:22.

must not do is take away the tax credit because it is not a crime, to

:44:23.:44:30.

be lowly paid. If you really is not. -- it really is not. This is

:44:31.:44:34.

something I fundamentally disagree with and we have got to put it right

:44:35.:44:38.

because the Conservative Party and discovered's reputation is very much

:44:39.:44:45.

at stake. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I have to begin by saying

:44:46.:44:50.

it is not normally my business to welcome Conservative contributed to

:44:51.:44:53.

this house, but I have to add knowledge and welcomed the

:44:54.:44:57.

contributions from the Honourable members for Stevenage, Aberconwy and

:44:58.:45:05.

Tiverton and Honasan -- Honasan. I think it goes without saying that

:45:06.:45:09.

the Honourable members on these benches agreed with every thing they

:45:10.:45:14.

had to say, they were brave and welcome contributions, perhaps more

:45:15.:45:17.

welcome on this side than on the Treasury bench. I hope perhaps that

:45:18.:45:24.

is going to probably be the only time I will welcome Conservative

:45:25.:45:27.

contributions in this Parliament! I am sorry that the SNP amendment in

:45:28.:45:32.

my name and my right honourable friends was not accepted, but I'm

:45:33.:45:35.

still very grateful to have further opportunity to set out the SNP's

:45:36.:45:42.

opposition to these cuts. And I will devote a large part of my speech and

:45:43.:45:46.

time this afternoon to address the proposals put forward by the Right

:45:47.:45:51.

Honourable member for Birkenhead. We have much to agree on. His proposals

:45:52.:45:56.

are marginally better than those brought forward by the Chancellor.

:45:57.:46:01.

But they do not protect all low-income households from the

:46:02.:46:04.

Chancellor's ideological wrecking ball to Social Security. I am glad

:46:05.:46:09.

the Right Honourable member has stated that he was putting these

:46:10.:46:14.

forward speculatively, and I hope we can seek a greater consistency, it

:46:15.:46:19.

is fair to say, from the official opposition in challenging the Tory

:46:20.:46:23.

tax credit cuts. As I think we can do much better than this. I think we

:46:24.:46:29.

form a very strong and united opposition on Tuesday because we

:46:30.:46:33.

formed with one voice against these cuts. Since Monday, we have had

:46:34.:46:40.

three different positions, Madam Deputy Speaker, from the Labour

:46:41.:46:43.

Party on tax credits. They pushed a delay in the other place on Monday

:46:44.:46:47.

night but opposed slapping them outright, and then to their credit,

:46:48.:46:53.

joined the SNP completely opposing the cuts on Tuesday, and now today

:46:54.:46:57.

we are presented with a watered down opposition which will steal remove

:46:58.:47:00.

significant amount of money from low-income households. Thank you for

:47:01.:47:07.

giving way. Would he agree with me that having families rely on an

:47:08.:47:12.

unelected chamber to protect their tax credits from this government is

:47:13.:47:17.

a ridiculous situation to be in in 2015? Would he further agree that

:47:18.:47:23.

the interests of Scotland's low-paid would be far better served if all of

:47:24.:47:30.

welfare was devolved to the Scottish Parliament immediately? I welcome

:47:31.:47:38.

his intervention. Under the member's plan, every household under

:47:39.:47:44.

a certain level would continue to lose out. Under his plan, a

:47:45.:47:50.

full-time single earner household with two children and an income of

:47:51.:47:58.

?15,000 would still lose out by ?700 annually. The level by which tax

:47:59.:48:02.

credits were removed thereafter would be 65p in the pound. We are

:48:03.:48:10.

still going to see the budget being balanced on the back of low-income

:48:11.:48:15.

households. I put a number of proposals forward, and I think when

:48:16.:48:21.

he is perhaps in this case a little longer, words like mitigate our

:48:22.:48:24.

words used to unite people with different views, even those that

:48:25.:48:30.

want to see the whole withdrawn. My dad asked him to follow -- might I

:48:31.:48:37.

ask him to follow carefully, I asked him yesterday, would Scotland, even

:48:38.:48:44.

after existing, not waiting for any further devolution, would Scotland

:48:45.:48:47.

be able to use its revenue raising powers to compensate everyone in

:48:48.:48:54.

Scotland should these changes go through? And the reply from the

:48:55.:48:58.

secretary of state was, yes. So are we not going to see in Scotland, the

:48:59.:49:02.

Scottish Government using revenue raising powers to actually not

:49:03.:49:06.

merely put motions on the order paper, but make sure nobody in

:49:07.:49:11.

Scotland discusses from these tax credit cuts? It is worth saying that

:49:12.:49:18.

the SNP is, I would hope the Labour Party is looking to work with the

:49:19.:49:21.

SNP wherever possible to oppose cuts that are out owing to impact on low

:49:22.:49:28.

income families. -- going to impact. I do make my contribution today as

:49:29.:49:32.

best as possible on the basis of consensus, because we need to work

:49:33.:49:35.

together to effectively oppose what is coming down the line from the

:49:36.:49:40.

Conservative government. With regards to the issue of using

:49:41.:49:44.

tax-raising powers, the fiscal framework has not been agreed. We

:49:45.:49:47.

have no idea what is going to be coming forward, we have no idea

:49:48.:49:50.

whether it is going to be possible to raise the taxes in order to do

:49:51.:49:57.

so... So I think it is a slight obfuscation from the Right

:49:58.:50:01.

Honourable member to use that example. The House of Commons

:50:02.:50:04.

library briefing, so we are still going to see the budget being

:50:05.:50:08.

balanced on the backs of low-income households. I hope after today... I

:50:09.:50:14.

thank him for giving way, he will remind the House that the Scottish

:50:15.:50:20.

Government has already spent ?100 million in mitigating existing

:50:21.:50:22.

attacks on the poor from this government. Absolutely, ?100 million

:50:23.:50:29.

on the bedroom tax and a further ?40 million in ensuring that the council

:50:30.:50:34.

tax cuts did not affect low income households in Scotland as they have

:50:35.:50:40.

done in England. I hope that after today, Labour will return to where

:50:41.:50:45.

it was earlier this week, when it stood side-by-side with the SNP in

:50:46.:50:50.

opposing Tory cuts. The SNP will oppose the ideological, regressive

:50:51.:50:53.

and punitive tax credit cuts with every opportunity open to us and we

:50:54.:50:57.

do so again today because we realise the damage these will cause to

:50:58.:51:01.

family incomes, levels of poverty and child poverty in these isles,

:51:02.:51:05.

and to social cohesion in every community in Scotland. The Scottish

:51:06.:51:09.

Government analysis task asked today at First Minister's Questions in the

:51:10.:51:14.

Scottish Parliament shows that 250,000 households in Scotland will

:51:15.:51:21.

lose on average ?1500 from April. And thereafter, with the changes

:51:22.:51:24.

fully in demented, this could rise to an average of ?3000 per

:51:25.:51:31.

household. These changes are fundamentally regressive,

:51:32.:51:32.

disproportionately targeting those in low-income households and posh

:51:33.:51:37.

and -- punish them for what this government's ideological obsession

:51:38.:51:44.

with austerity. The SNP stood on a manifesto which was fundamentally

:51:45.:51:47.

anti-austerities but stood on a responsible path for bringing down

:51:48.:51:51.

the deficit. We have argued for a 0.5% increase in spending per year

:51:52.:51:54.

in this government which would have released money to invest in capital

:51:55.:52:02.

projects and another measure to narrow it income in quality. Our

:52:03.:52:04.

plan would have brought the budget deficit down to 2% at the end of the

:52:05.:52:12.

Parliament but at the same time protecting public senses. It was

:52:13.:52:17.

backed by an IMF report from June this year that highlighted that

:52:18.:52:19.

reducing income in a quality not only leads to reduced -- income

:52:20.:52:29.

inequality not only leads to reduced inequality but also improves growth.

:52:30.:52:35.

I am pushed for time, I know my colleagues are looking to get in. As

:52:36.:52:39.

well as being socially destructive, as an extension of the IMF's

:52:40.:52:43.

thinking, this policy is economically incompetent as well.

:52:44.:52:47.

There was no mention of these wholesale cuts to tax credit in the

:52:48.:52:52.

Conservative manifesto. There were just two references to tax credits,

:52:53.:52:54.

neither referenced anything like these proposals we have in front of

:52:55.:52:59.

us now. I reiterate that this was the central plank of this

:53:00.:53:02.

Chancellor's burst budget since the election. He has based all of his

:53:03.:53:07.

sons on the back of these cuts. They would have merited a passing

:53:08.:53:11.

reference or at least a hint on what down the line. The Chancellor's

:53:12.:53:18.

summer budget was a prized example of offices -- obfuscation,

:53:19.:53:24.

suggesting that these cuts in tax credits would be mitigated by a rise

:53:25.:53:28.

in the living wage is nonsense, the full rise in the national living

:53:29.:53:36.

wage but not coming until four years after the tax credit cuts. Even when

:53:37.:53:40.

it does come in, it still will not mitigate the tax credit cuts. Why

:53:41.:53:48.

did the government decided to undermine and sabotage the real

:53:49.:53:54.

minimum living wage campaign by labelling their minimum wage as

:53:55.:53:56.

such? I would like to address some of the language that has been used

:53:57.:54:00.

over this issue. Many of us have been focusing on impacting working

:54:01.:54:05.

household and lambasting the fact that many working households will be

:54:06.:54:09.

dragged into the body from the tax credit cuts. I have been as guilty

:54:10.:54:16.

as others for this as I attempt to show that the government's rhetoric

:54:17.:54:20.

on making work pay is a sham when we look at these cuts. There should be

:54:21.:54:25.

no distinction for working or known working households who are in

:54:26.:54:31.

poverty or are living in low incomes, we cannot be dragged into

:54:32.:54:35.

the rhetoric of deserving or non-deserving poor, nobody deserves

:54:36.:54:40.

to be living in poverty. Describing hard-working families or the working

:54:41.:54:43.

poor is unhelpful, we do not know the circumstances by which these

:54:44.:54:47.

people are unable to work, and we should not be judging them in the

:54:48.:54:51.

way that some on the oppositions benches are, where, thereby the

:54:52.:54:57.

grace of God go I. None of us know where we may find ourselves in the

:54:58.:55:00.

circumstances when we are out of work. We should be working to

:55:01.:55:05.

address poverty whenever it is manifested and whenever it will be

:55:06.:55:07.

worsened as it will be by this Chancellor's tax credit cuts. It is

:55:08.:55:14.

a privilege to speak in this debate. I1 of the co-sponsors of the debate

:55:15.:55:20.

but the entire credit of the idea it belongs to the right honourable

:55:21.:55:25.

member for Birkenhead. He rightly identified that what we needed was a

:55:26.:55:30.

cross-party, less partisan, as it turns out, non-binding debate, which

:55:31.:55:35.

will allow everybody to explore these issues properly in the

:55:36.:55:40.

national interest without being feted by feelings of joining one

:55:41.:55:43.

side or another in the playground of politics. The result has been very

:55:44.:55:48.

good, this has been the best debate so far on this subject of a number.

:55:49.:55:54.

But it does fall on us all to be honest about it. This policy was a

:55:55.:55:59.

mistake. One can only think that, because I do not think anybody in

:56:00.:56:02.

any party in this house would deliberately, have impoverished the

:56:03.:56:08.

working poor, with dependent families. I do differentiate in this

:56:09.:56:16.

context, I am afraid. That was simply not intended, I am sure. The

:56:17.:56:20.

problem was, it was compounded by the... Not for the moment. It was

:56:21.:56:25.

compounded by the method taken of taking eight statutory instruments,

:56:26.:56:30.

so it is not amendable, and not having enough information, not

:56:31.:56:34.

having a proper impact statement. For five members of this debate so

:56:35.:56:37.

far have made that point. Had it been amendable and it had been prime

:56:38.:56:43.

legislation and there was proper information available from the

:56:44.:56:46.

government, this would not have got to the House of Lords in its current

:56:47.:56:49.

form, it would have been reformed in the south and that is what should

:56:50.:56:53.

have happened. I subscribe to the government's wished to others the

:56:54.:56:58.

books by 2020, I think that is an eminently sensible and responsible

:56:59.:57:02.

game but I also subscribe to the view that we need to protect the

:57:03.:57:06.

poor at all costs. The problem is, how do we identify what the policy

:57:07.:57:08.

does? I trieded to find some example for

:57:09.:57:17.

which he could assess both sides of the argument. I offer my thanks by

:57:18.:57:23.

the way, to the Chancellor's PPS, in helping with that, who was very

:57:24.:57:27.

helpful. I was able to put some of the points he made in defence of the

:57:28.:57:34.

policy to the library. I will pick out a couple of examples, as to what

:57:35.:57:38.

the impact of this policy was. The worst case example I could find was

:57:39.:57:43.

that of a single working single parent, with two children, who

:57:44.:57:48.

without the mitigating effectses could have been ?2,000 a year worse

:57:49.:57:54.

off. In virtually every year, an unbelievable sum of money to take

:57:55.:57:59.

off a family that is already poor. Under the circumstances, in which

:58:00.:58:03.

they are eligible for the mitigation, in particular, housing

:58:04.:58:12.

benefit, that can be reduced, reduced, to 700-round about ?700.

:58:13.:58:17.

The fine detail is unreliable. But ?700 virtually every year again for

:58:18.:58:21.

the next four or five years. Remember, the great battle when the

:58:22.:58:28.

other side was in power, over the 10% rate, was over sums a quarter of

:58:29.:58:33.

that. The great battles over the poll tax were of sums that size. I

:58:34.:58:36.

remember them too well. The impact on a family which is already on the

:58:37.:58:43.

poverty line by definition, is unspeakable. And unthinkable. I

:58:44.:58:49.

speak as somebody who grew up in a poorer era, I can remember children

:58:50.:58:53.

being hungry on Friday when the bills were too big or it was too

:58:54.:58:56.

cold and the heating costs were too high. So that is what we are dealing

:58:57.:59:03.

with here. There are three possible strategies. Before he moves on to

:59:04.:59:12.

his three possible strategies he touched on the housing benefit. Is

:59:13.:59:18.

that not again of the issues with this policy somebody receiving

:59:19.:59:20.

housing ebenefit would see mitigation in the current system.

:59:21.:59:23.

Somebody who has bought their own property would not? That is exactly

:59:24.:59:29.

right. PMQ thinksome who has their own house are better off. Many in

:59:30.:59:35.

this category are people who have fallen into it and get out later.

:59:36.:59:41.

It's a serious consideration, ?2,000, it is an untenable thought

:59:42.:59:44.

that somebody with two children to support and on less than 20,00

:59:45.:59:48.

pounds a year themselves, so I am going to separate the strategy into

:59:49.:59:57.

three, the roam for Birkenhead said four. One possible is we shift the

:59:58.:00:02.

burden elsewhere. Lord Lawson said the same in the House of Lords,

:00:03.:00:07.

during the debate there. That is possible. But I am not going

:00:08.:00:11.

to, elaborate on it because I think there are better ways. The second

:00:12.:00:17.

one is to find savings elsewhere. Now, here I did very much disagree

:00:18.:00:23.

with the right honourable gentleman for Birkenhead, in his almost

:00:24.:00:26.

encouragement of the Chancellor to go hunting for the pensioner pound,

:00:27.:00:30.

because it won't be today's pensioner's pound he will go hunting

:00:31.:00:34.

for it is tomorrow's. By taking out the, taking out the tax benefits of

:00:35.:00:39.

investing in pensions and undermining what we have left of our

:00:40.:00:43.

private pension scheme. I am protected, virtually all my pension

:00:44.:00:47.

is paid for, but it's the next generation that have to worry about

:00:48.:00:50.

that. This would be an unwise route to go. I give way. I thought I

:00:51.:00:57.

thought my argument would have more appeal because it was a free market

:00:58.:01:01.

one. That when Governments have guaranteed a minimum, it is not our

:01:02.:01:04.

business to put our sticky fingers in other people's lives to tell them

:01:05.:01:08.

how they should save or not save. Once you have a minimum pension

:01:09.:01:12.

agreement, to everybody, how people save, when they save, how they save,

:01:13.:01:17.

is not a question for this House. I won't go too far down the route. I

:01:18.:01:22.

will say to him this, for middle class pensioner, one of the highest

:01:23.:01:28.

effective income tax rates of 55% on people who have saved a lot for

:01:29.:01:32.

their pension and gone above the lifetime allowance, so I think we

:01:33.:01:36.

have to be careful. If you let the Treasury at that deferred income,

:01:37.:01:39.

they will take as much as they can. So I just, I think it is not a route

:01:40.:01:44.

which is wise. The third option which is probably the winner this,

:01:45.:01:51.

it will not be by itself, is to stage the cuts, the right honourable

:01:52.:01:55.

gentleman also lit upon this. To match movements in minimum wage and

:01:56.:01:59.

living wage, so that people do not lose. After all, the Government's

:02:00.:02:05.

figures for 2020 broadly look like they balance. They broadly look like

:02:06.:02:08.

they balance. They are not perfect. We have to work through the

:02:09.:02:11.

mitigation, this is where we have the impact statement again. But

:02:12.:02:16.

broadly they balance and they do two things, one they protect the working

:02:17.:02:20.

poor, but on the other hand they also achieve the deficit reduction.

:02:21.:02:29.

And that is vital. Because if we hit that deficit reduction by 2020, as

:02:30.:02:36.

my right honourable friend spoke earlier, said, this is, each year's

:02:37.:02:41.

saving, each four billion a year is not critical. It is less than 1% of

:02:42.:02:44.

the economy. It is not critical. The real critical issue is how the fans

:02:45.:02:48.

shall markets see it. And they don't care what the trajectory is from

:02:49.:02:53.

here to 2020, just the fact that we get there is good enough. --

:02:54.:02:56.

financial. We don't need to worry about the 4 billion a year, we do

:02:57.:03:01.

need to worry about the final outcome, so my argument would be

:03:02.:03:05.

that we should cut the tax credits in steps, minimum, in steps with

:03:06.:03:09.

minimum wage and living wage. The criterion is what is important here,

:03:10.:03:14.

the criterion that the Government must meet is that no losses for the

:03:15.:03:19.

least well-off, in any of those three intervening years. No losses

:03:20.:03:24.

the least well-off. The poorest, the working poor, the dependents cannot

:03:25.:03:28.

afford to lose one pound, and so that is the test the Government has

:03:29.:03:33.

to meet. After all, I was never a great fan of the minimum wage but

:03:34.:03:36.

one of the things that persuaded me it was worthwhile. I have taken two

:03:37.:03:41.

interventions I will lose time. One of the things that persuaded me was

:03:42.:03:44.

social data that showed it cut crime. It led to a reduction in

:03:45.:03:50.

crime. We must not lose sight of the social impact of these things, the

:03:51.:03:55.

distress on stall, the break up. Pushing people to food bank, towards

:03:56.:03:59.

worst, towards loan shark, pushing people into petty crime. There is a

:04:00.:04:04.

cost on those too. The IFS said to the committee that

:04:05.:04:09.

the Government could hit the 2020 target but, on a staged route. So

:04:10.:04:13.

that is what we should do. That is want we should aim for, we can

:04:14.:04:21.

achieve the fiscal target and still remain faithful to Conservative one

:04:22.:04:27.

nation aim, which after all has been the lite motive of the last few

:04:28.:04:33.

moneys for us. If we do, then the Chancellor would have gone reason to

:04:34.:04:36.

be proud of his achievement P Thank you.

:04:37.:04:42.

It is, it is very rewarding and refreshing to follow the honourable

:04:43.:04:46.

gentleman in his comments but also other speakers today, if ministers

:04:47.:04:49.

take anything from what has been said today in this debate, it is a

:04:50.:04:56.

cry to just pause for a moment, deliberate upon the way that

:04:57.:05:02.

proposed changes will impact on many working families, and particularly

:05:03.:05:06.

people within our xhoo communities as well, and to work with

:05:07.:05:09.

Parliament, to work with the Select Committee, to work with the ideas

:05:10.:05:13.

that have being put forward. I don't have all the solutions today, but I

:05:14.:05:18.

think the appeal made by the right honourable gentleman opposite, that

:05:19.:05:22.

in, in effect it is political version of the Hippocratic oath,

:05:23.:05:29.

trying to do good to constituents or do no harm before moving ahead with

:05:30.:05:33.

the policies. I think the evidence is clear. I thank the roam for

:05:34.:05:39.

Birkenhead in laying out so very well some of the analysis of the

:05:40.:05:43.

problem that confronts the Government in the proposals it has

:05:44.:05:50.

brought forward. But some of the possible solution, there are some

:05:51.:05:53.

possible solutions there. But it is clear as day, as the minister goes

:05:54.:05:58.

away and speaks with other ministers and cabinet colleagues that he needs

:05:59.:06:02.

to take this back and rethink it. It is coming from right across the

:06:03.:06:05.

benches here, right across the benches. There has been talk today

:06:06.:06:10.

about lost sheep wanting to return to the flock, I would suggest those

:06:11.:06:15.

lost sheep are in some ways on the sun lit Uplands, what they are

:06:16.:06:18.

saying is come and join us up here. It is not they are lost, they can

:06:19.:06:22.

actually see the way forward here, which need to make sure that we are

:06:23.:06:26.

doing no harm to our constituents. Let me explain I am sure the

:06:27.:06:33.

minister is very aware of the impact of this, within my own constituency,

:06:34.:06:39.

the number of working families currently claiming tax credits is in

:06:40.:06:46.

excess of 4,000 families. The number of working families with children

:06:47.:06:54.

claiming those tax credits, is nearly 33,500. The number of

:06:55.:06:58.

children in those families receiving tax credits as part of working

:06:59.:07:05.

family, is nearly 6,000 children. That is why my mail bag at the

:07:06.:07:10.

moment are full of people who are terrified of what is coming down the

:07:11.:07:14.

track. They are terrified for good reason. It is not because of unreal

:07:15.:07:22.

expectations of what might happen, they know, they have seen the

:07:23.:07:29.

analysis. They have read it, they have read the analyses in

:07:30.:07:34.

Conservative papers or support in papers, not in my news letters or

:07:35.:07:39.

those submited by the Rowntree Foundation or the Children's

:07:40.:07:43.

Society. They see the analysis of them and their families. If you look

:07:44.:07:47.

another the impact. Mention has been made about how this impacts on

:07:48.:07:50.

different communities and it is certainly the case it does have a

:07:51.:07:54.

differential effect. Let me lay out the effect here in Wales. The number

:07:55.:07:58.

of working families in Wales claiming tax credits, that will be o

:07:59.:08:03.

taken chalet affected by this, directly in their -- potentially

:08:04.:08:09.

affected be this. It is over 176,000 families. Over 250,000 families with

:08:10.:08:14.

children, a, we cannot do this. It is a quarter of a million children

:08:15.:08:18.

in Wales, will with after -- affected by this because of what we

:08:19.:08:22.

are doing to their family, because of what we are taking away from them

:08:23.:08:26.

directly. It is clear as day, that we have to change our way on this

:08:27.:08:30.

policy, but lot me look at one particular aspect of this, where it

:08:31.:08:36.

hits really hard. We know on average, a fifth of women's income

:08:37.:08:41.

is made up of welfare payments, and tax credit, compared to round a

:08:42.:08:46.

tenth for men. Benefits make up twice as much of women's income than

:08:47.:08:53.

it does of men. Women... In many of those sectors we have talked about

:08:54.:08:58.

already, the low paid sector, including hospital, in retail when

:08:59.:09:02.

we go out and enjoy ourselves and have that coffee down as we are in

:09:03.:09:07.

our shopping excursion and so on we are typically going to be served by

:09:08.:09:12.

women than men, in care, in domiciliary care, in all thoef those

:09:13.:09:16.

professions, they are more likely to be working part-time, and in those

:09:17.:09:20.

low paid sector, if we look at those areas that we often say we respect

:09:21.:09:26.

so much, the people who work in it, those areas like health and social

:09:27.:09:30.

care, nearly 80% of the people who work in those sectors will be women.

:09:31.:09:34.

You can see where this is going, minister. We are hitting directly at

:09:35.:09:41.

those who are most unable to go out and find another job, another few

:09:42.:09:45.

hour, some other way of support for them and their family and their

:09:46.:09:49.

children. We go right at the most vulnerable here within our

:09:50.:09:53.

community, and in huge number, huge numbers. Analysis by the Resolution

:09:54.:09:59.

Foundation suggests one million single parents in work will be left

:10:00.:10:04.

?1,000 a year worse off. All of this has to surely just shout out to the

:10:05.:10:10.

ministers there has been an almighty cataclysmic mess here, made of this,

:10:11.:10:15.

in going forward at a rate of knots. Slow down, listen to what has been

:10:16.:10:20.

said, work with Parliamentarian, work with outsaid agencies who work

:10:21.:10:24.

in the front line, with some of these people who will be affected.

:10:25.:10:27.

But work with the Select Committees to take it forward. This is too

:10:28.:10:30.

difficult an issue for the Government to do on its own. The

:10:31.:10:35.

purpose of this, yes, to make work pay, excellent, but then it has to

:10:36.:10:40.

pay for everybody. Everybody, not just some. At the moment, this could

:10:41.:10:46.

impact on a community, it is going to be devastating and it will wash

:10:47.:10:50.

right through not only those individual families but into the

:10:51.:10:55.

communities themselves because this will have an economic knock on in a

:10:56.:11:00.

cycle a regressive cycle of spending power, as well. So I would say to

:11:01.:11:06.

the minister, consider the options that have been put for today. Go

:11:07.:11:09.

back and look at what other option there might be out there, but there

:11:10.:11:16.

is no way on earth, it is saleable politically to do this, but more

:11:17.:11:22.

importantly, on the basic human issues, of do no harm to your

:11:23.:11:26.

constituents. I can't go and sell what is being proposed on the

:11:27.:11:29.

doorstep in my constituency. I won't do it. I want to tell these people

:11:30.:11:32.

it is worth going out to work. Go and get a job if you can. Go and up

:11:33.:11:38.

scale if you can and we will make it worth your while. That is our job

:11:39.:11:40.

here. congratulate a member of the

:11:41.:11:53.

opposition benches for initiating a debate of such magnitude as this. I

:11:54.:12:02.

said before I would like to thank my honourable friend, and indeed, I

:12:03.:12:06.

think a lot of people in this chamber to see the Honourable member

:12:07.:12:10.

for Birkenhead as quite a leading light in welfare of the people of

:12:11.:12:14.

this country. I do remember before I was in politics, the Honourable

:12:15.:12:20.

member, being sacked for thinking the unthinkable. I remember that

:12:21.:12:25.

very, very plainly. And here we are. We are debating today about tax

:12:26.:12:30.

credits. The debate: Has been very measured. -- the tone of the debate

:12:31.:12:37.

has been very measured. We have had a very balanced views from all

:12:38.:12:43.

sites. Tax credits were brought in. Let me make some progress please.

:12:44.:12:47.

Tax credits were brought in for the right reasons. But it is a fact that

:12:48.:12:53.

it did spiral out of control. When nine out of ten people who claim tax

:12:54.:13:02.

credits, we have two ask, is it a sweetener for working or is it a

:13:03.:13:10.

benefit as it was claimed to be? In technology the contribution of the

:13:11.:13:13.

Right Honourable member for Birkenhead in securing this debate,

:13:14.:13:19.

would he also add knowledge of the role of the other house --

:13:20.:13:23.

acknowledged the role of the other house for creating a different

:13:24.:13:27.

context for this debate? The tone that he remarked on would not be

:13:28.:13:30.

what we were hearing if it was not for Monday night and the position

:13:31.:13:34.

forced on the Chancellor. I would disagree with my honourable friend,

:13:35.:13:38.

the Honourable gentleman come on this particular debate in the other

:13:39.:13:45.

place. Because I do think it was unprecedented that that actual

:13:46.:13:50.

motion was passed. But I have got my own words to say about that in

:13:51.:13:53.

another context which you will probably read about over the

:13:54.:13:58.

weekend. Going back to tax credits, we were in the position where

:13:59.:14:03.

everybody was on a tax credit, near enough. They were a stepping stone

:14:04.:14:08.

to gainful employment. And the Honourable Lady from... From Don

:14:09.:14:15.

Valley, said it right. The employers, the employers do not

:14:16.:14:21.

know, the employers do not know if their employees are on tax credit. I

:14:22.:14:26.

employed over 100 people and some were claiming tax credits and I

:14:27.:14:29.

found that only down the line in certain circumstances. It is mainly

:14:30.:14:34.

a hidden benefit. I applaud the Chancellor is trying to do. I do not

:14:35.:14:42.

really go with this ?1300 average loss to 3 million households, stacks

:14:43.:14:48.

up. Because they are estimates. We do not really know what is going to

:14:49.:14:52.

come out of what is going to be in the spending review. However, we do

:14:53.:14:56.

know what has already happened by raising the personal tax allowance

:14:57.:15:03.

to 11,000 coming up in April, and 12,520 20. That will help out and

:15:04.:15:08.

create ?1000 worth of the tax break to people all across the country.

:15:09.:15:16.

But we are offering 30 hours of free childcare, which again amounts to

:15:17.:15:20.

?5,000. We have got fuel duty which has been frozen. The economy is on

:15:21.:15:25.

the up. And as the Honourable Lady... I would love to give way. I

:15:26.:15:31.

think what we say about 30 hours free childcare, I think most of the

:15:32.:15:35.

people listening in the gallery today or outside of this place will

:15:36.:15:38.

think that is for all children in any form of childcare. I think we

:15:39.:15:42.

need to have an honest debate. It is 30 hours of free childcare for those

:15:43.:15:46.

three and four-year-old in nursery education, that does not begin to

:15:47.:15:50.

help with those families that have different aged children. The cuts to

:15:51.:15:54.

the working tax credits fundamentally affect those families

:15:55.:15:57.

get access to support with other childcare costs in order to pick up

:15:58.:16:03.

a job and stay in work. I thank her for that intervention, it was very

:16:04.:16:08.

eloquently put. What she has demonstrated clearly if there is a

:16:09.:16:13.

confusion, is it tax credits, child tax credits, the whole survey of it.

:16:14.:16:18.

As I was rightly going to -- sphere of it. As I was going to point out

:16:19.:16:23.

before, tax credits were brought in to help families struggling in times

:16:24.:16:27.

of great posterity. We are still in times of great austerity but the

:16:28.:16:33.

economy is on the up and we are starting to see projections of our

:16:34.:16:36.

economy starting to come out of recession mode and into a lack of

:16:37.:16:40.

deficit with the next five to ten years. So what all these figures

:16:41.:16:43.

mean? These figures plainly and mean? These figures plainly and

:16:44.:16:49.

simply mean this. We have to balance the books, and we have to look at

:16:50.:16:53.

everywhere we can possibly do so. We have to think the unthinkable. As I

:16:54.:16:58.

keep saying it, my honourable friend, the member for Birkenhead,

:16:59.:17:04.

did think all those years ago. I do actually have faith in the

:17:05.:17:07.

Chancellor, I do know the Chancellor personally. He is a good, decent,

:17:08.:17:12.

caring man. Despite what you read in newspapers, despite what is said

:17:13.:17:16.

about him. And I know the Chancellor will be watching this debate, he be

:17:17.:17:22.

hearing is what we are saying and he will be thinking. All I can say is,

:17:23.:17:26.

yes, nine out of ten people were claiming tax credits. And as the

:17:27.:17:34.

Right Honourable gentleman for Birkenhead said, this many benefits,

:17:35.:17:39.

eight out of ten people, but we must look and care for those two people

:17:40.:17:44.

in that ten and make sure that we get the right deal for them. Thank

:17:45.:17:51.

you very much. Mad and if it is beta, like most people, I obviously

:17:52.:17:58.

-- Madam Deputy Speaker, like most people, I would obviously prefer the

:17:59.:18:01.

Chancellor to scrap his tax credit proposals and go back to the drawing

:18:02.:18:06.

board. Not because I am against the phasing out of tax credits, but I am

:18:07.:18:10.

prepared to accept that there might be an argument for saying that it is

:18:11.:18:15.

time for new measures of support. And if we can raise living standards

:18:16.:18:19.

without tax credits, for working families, then that is a desirable

:18:20.:18:27.

aim. And obviously, freezing the value of tax credits is a clear

:18:28.:18:30.

indication that they are on the way out anyway. The truth is, the

:18:31.:18:34.

Chancellor has made a pig in this. He has blundered and low-paid,

:18:35.:18:42.

hard-working parents will pay the price for his mistakes. If we can

:18:43.:18:47.

take the prime minister at his word, I think he suggested during his six

:18:48.:18:52.

nonanswers yesterday, that there would be some attempt to address

:18:53.:18:57.

this mess in the Autumn Statement. Normally his word would be good

:18:58.:19:01.

enough for me, but of course, this is the same prime minister who gave

:19:02.:19:06.

his word on national television that tax credits would be safe. Is it any

:19:07.:19:12.

surprise that within five months of the election, people are beginning

:19:13.:19:15.

to wonder about the long-term future of this government? The benches

:19:16.:19:21.

opposite have taken to telling us that they have a mandate. Let's just

:19:22.:19:26.

remind ourselves that this is a government that didn't expect to

:19:27.:19:31.

win, that secured less than 40% of the popular vote, trade unionists,

:19:32.:19:39.

please note. It has a limited mandate and many more shenanigans

:19:40.:19:42.

like this tax credit to buckle and it will have no moral authority. As

:19:43.:19:50.

I said, there may be an argument for phasing out tax credits, and if we

:19:51.:19:58.

can have some clear indication of government determination that wages

:19:59.:20:00.

and living standards will rise to compensate, most people will accept

:20:01.:20:08.

change. But there is absolutely no sense in a steel fragile economy --

:20:09.:20:14.

in the still fragile economy in taking money from the working poor

:20:15.:20:18.

before their wages have risen. I think it is also a mistake for some

:20:19.:20:23.

in the party opposite to attempt to demonise Gordon Brown and tax

:20:24.:20:30.

credits as a policy instrument. The Adam Smith Institute recently

:20:31.:20:36.

pointed out that working tax credits are the best form of welfare we

:20:37.:20:41.

have, and that simply cutting tax credits will serve as a disincentive

:20:42.:20:48.

to work and hurt those at the lowest levels of society. They also point

:20:49.:20:52.

out that the new minimum wage structure which the Chancellor

:20:53.:20:56.

deliberately misleading the calls a living wage will do little to help

:20:57.:21:04.

those affected by these cuts. At the institute says, enticing more people

:21:05.:21:10.

into work was one of the stated aims behind the working tax credit and

:21:11.:21:13.

attacking it for having achieved this end seems somewhat perverse.

:21:14.:21:17.

Now I want to consider what changes the Chancellor might make, I read he

:21:18.:21:25.

might speed up the increase in the personal tax allowance but

:21:26.:21:28.

increasing the personal tax allowance could cost ?12 billion and

:21:29.:21:33.

70% of that benefit goes to the top half of the income distribution

:21:34.:21:38.

curve. It is actually worth less than ?1 25 per week for working

:21:39.:21:44.

families. I am not at all convinced that such a costly measured in these

:21:45.:21:50.

economically difficult times is the best way to help the low-paid. The

:21:51.:21:54.

House of Commons library has produced simple way to calculate the

:21:55.:21:58.

impact of the combined effect of the reduced threshold and the increased

:21:59.:22:04.

paper which form the centrepiece of the Chancellor's plans, so a family

:22:05.:22:10.

with two children on ?20,420 will, in conversation be ?2200 worse off.

:22:11.:22:19.

3.3 million working households will be losers, over 8000 of them, Madam

:22:20.:22:25.

Deputy Speaker, in my constituency. The Chancellor could decide to

:22:26.:22:31.

change the disregard level. This would not undo the damage he plans

:22:32.:22:38.

to inflict but it would commit a -- mitigate the effect and it would

:22:39.:22:43.

mean that a single parent with two children under school age could lose

:22:44.:22:50.

a lot less money. And he could scale back plans on the paper from 41-48,

:22:51.:23:00.

that would mitigate the impact on those struggling to make a living.

:23:01.:23:05.

He might also decide to turn the clock back and recognise family

:23:06.:23:08.

response when it is in the tax system by reintroducing some kind of

:23:09.:23:11.

tax allowance for children as a feature of our tax system. And of

:23:12.:23:15.

course, he could use the Autumn Statement to revisit his plans in

:23:16.:23:20.

cuts on inheritance tax, and the cuts he has already given to

:23:21.:23:24.

millionaires. If we are in it together, somebody over their

:23:25.:23:27.

suggested, this time we had some evidence to back up the

:23:28.:23:33.

anti-statements. As the former higher education minister now Lord

:23:34.:23:36.

Willets point out in his book, what is really at fault is the balance is

:23:37.:23:41.

wrong. Young people and young families are taking far too big a

:23:42.:23:47.

hit and what we need to do is restructure our welfare system. My

:23:48.:23:50.

honourable friend from Nottingham North suggests earlier that the

:23:51.:23:57.

Chancellor had the parliament should involve parliament. I would like to

:23:58.:24:01.

suggest he involves my right honourable friend from Birkenhead

:24:02.:24:04.

and his works and pensions select committee because what I think we

:24:05.:24:09.

desperately need is a system that promises fairness and support for

:24:10.:24:12.

young people and families and a welfare system that encourages and

:24:13.:24:18.

incentivises people. But above all, the government must make it clear

:24:19.:24:24.

that it is its sincere intention to roll back from this mad cliff edge

:24:25.:24:32.

that it is currently on. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I write to

:24:33.:24:38.

support the visible of mitigating effect of proposed tax credit

:24:39.:24:46.

changes to low-paid workers, and I suggest that even friends need to be

:24:47.:24:49.

critical of long as it is constructive. I would like to thank

:24:50.:24:52.

the honourable member for Birkenhead for bringing forward the bait. I

:24:53.:24:56.

would like to start by saying that I do support the principle of reforms

:24:57.:24:59.

to tax credits. We need to get on top of our welfare bills. This

:25:00.:25:03.

financial year, central government will spend more on that interest

:25:04.:25:07.

repayments than it will on the education of our children, more than

:25:08.:25:10.

on the defence of our nation. We cannot keep going on spending

:25:11.:25:13.

indefinitely, adding to our debts, and as suggested by my honourable

:25:14.:25:17.

friend the member for South Cambridgeshire, asking our children

:25:18.:25:22.

to pay it off. The honourable member talks about doing no harm, but we

:25:23.:25:27.

must also be mindful of the harm to our constituents of not tackling the

:25:28.:25:30.

deficit and burdening future generations with more debt, although

:25:31.:25:34.

I'd take his substantive point. The current tax credit system is not

:25:35.:25:44.

sustainable, costs have skyrocketed from 4,000,000,019 99 to 30 billion

:25:45.:25:47.

this year. This has had the effect of depressing basic wages and

:25:48.:25:55.

business. As the former Labour Chancellor said tax credits, one of

:25:56.:25:58.

the unintended consequences is that we are now subsidising lower majors

:25:59.:26:03.

in a way that was intended. -- lower wages. The welfare system is there

:26:04.:26:07.

to provide a safety net for the most memorable in our society and those

:26:08.:26:11.

on the lowest incomes, and I fully support moves to move Britain to a

:26:12.:26:16.

high wage, low watt tax, low welfare economy. I am concerned that these

:26:17.:26:21.

tax credit changes could be very tough on some of our lowest paid

:26:22.:26:24.

families and more needs to be done to ease that transition for those

:26:25.:26:28.

easing away from tax credits next year. Many families who have worked

:26:29.:26:32.

hard and done the right thing, everything we have asked them to do,

:26:33.:26:37.

will be needed he hit by a drop in income. I know the gunmen had

:26:38.:26:40.

introduced a package of measures to introduce an increase in pay like

:26:41.:26:47.

the living wage, doubling the free childcare, although I take the point

:26:48.:26:55.

that it is restricted to three and four-year-olds, and a raising of the

:26:56.:27:00.

income tax personal allowance to 2500. I am aware that many of these

:27:01.:27:04.

actions do not take effect immediately in 2016. I was a concern

:27:05.:27:07.

about the effect the tax credit cuts might have on some that work in the

:27:08.:27:13.

public sector, my wife is a teacher. Many of the biggest employers in my

:27:14.:27:18.

constituency are in the public sector. Public sector pay over the

:27:19.:27:22.

next few years has been frozen at 1% as we all know, meaning many of

:27:23.:27:25.

these workers will not benefit from rises in private sector pay. And

:27:26.:27:29.

many of these workers in these sectors rely on tax credits to tap

:27:30.:27:33.

up their income and make ends meet. Moreover, cost saving measures in

:27:34.:27:37.

the public sector mean that these workers cannot take on additional

:27:38.:27:42.

hours to raise income. I have had these concerns about some of the

:27:43.:27:45.

measures since the summer budget and have met with the Chancellor and

:27:46.:27:48.

ministers to raise my points with them. They have listened carefully

:27:49.:27:51.

to what I have had to say and I know ministers are alive to the concerns

:27:52.:27:55.

of members who want to ensure that the most honourable and lowest paid

:27:56.:27:58.

are protected. That is why I welcome the news that the Chancellor will be

:27:59.:28:03.

taking steps to ease the transition of some other changes on the poorest

:28:04.:28:06.

workers on lowest incomes and I look forward to more detail on these

:28:07.:28:09.

extra measures in the Autumn Statement. In general I would urge

:28:10.:28:12.

Treasury ministers to carefully assess what can be done to introduce

:28:13.:28:17.

traditional transitional measures, giving families more time to adjust

:28:18.:28:21.

to the changes in tax credits and allow time for additional policies

:28:22.:28:24.

that I have mentioned such as the free childcare and progressive rises

:28:25.:28:28.

in the living wage over this Parliament to boost families and

:28:29.:28:32.

their income. I care deeply about helping the lowest paid and making

:28:33.:28:36.

sure that work always pays. I welcome the thrust of what the

:28:37.:28:40.

government's Drive is, moving us to low welfare, low tax and high wage

:28:41.:28:43.

economy but more consideration needs to begin into the bloke paid workers

:28:44.:28:48.

who are trying to do the work -- low-paid workers who tried to do the

:28:49.:28:49.

real thing. I add my congratulations to miry of

:28:50.:28:58.

for Birkenhead, for securing this debate in a week of high drama on

:28:59.:29:04.

this subject. I must say I am very encouraged by stuff I have heard

:29:05.:29:08.

from the other side. I hope those honourable members convey a that to

:29:09.:29:12.

their leadership. Yesterday's headlines did make confusing

:29:13.:29:17.

reading, the Guardian went for Osbourne ready to change tack on tax

:29:18.:29:26.

credit. While the Express plumped for defiant Osbourne says taics will

:29:27.:29:33.

not be cut. Before the election the for defiant Osbourne says taics will

:29:34.:29:36.

not be cut. Before the election the Conservative manifesto prop promised

:29:37.:29:38.

to "Work to eliminate child poverty, and two months later, they scrapped

:29:39.:29:43.

existing targets, and poverty measures, so this, to me, looks not

:29:44.:29:47.

even moving the goalposts but ripping up the pitch. We have had

:29:48.:29:51.

the Prime Minister's claim that we must eliminate the scourge of

:29:52.:29:56.

poverty, which is difficult to reconcile with cutses set to put

:29:57.:30:03.

more than 200,000 working households into poverty being affected for an

:30:04.:30:09.

inheritance tax, give a tax doubt the 60,000 wealthiest estates. That

:30:10.:30:13.

is as they stood. We don't know what the next instalment would be. But I

:30:14.:30:17.

mean, do think this is why we don't hear, we are all in this together so

:30:18.:30:21.

much any more. I hope it was... Yes I I will of

:30:22.:30:25.

course. I was a bit confused as well but the

:30:26.:30:30.

only thing that is clear to me, that in Leith we have over 6,000 families

:30:31.:30:36.

on tax credits, over 5,000 families with children. And these measures

:30:37.:30:41.

will drive them into poverty, and that is very clear to me. I than of

:30:42.:30:49.

my for that. We have a similar number in Ealing and Acton. It is

:30:50.:30:51.

those children we should be thinking about. They are not just columns on

:30:52.:30:56.

the spread sheeted. These are real lives. -- sheet. I hope it was the

:30:57.:31:02.

drama of PMQs but six times the Prime Minister was asked by our

:31:03.:31:05.

leader, about these plan, and whether working people would be

:31:06.:31:09.

worse off next year. Six times he refused to answer. Even the Sun has

:31:10.:31:15.

said this morning not the most Labour friendly paper six words by

:31:16.:31:20.

Cam. In the words of the honourable member for Islington North, this is

:31:21.:31:24.

not a constitutional crisis this is a crisis for three million working

:31:25.:31:30.

families. But Madame Deputy Speaker we could go further than this

:31:31.:31:36.

motion. The Chancellor could still perform a full U-turn. I would

:31:37.:31:42.

welcome back this -- welcome this. If he were to do this, as my fellow

:31:43.:31:51.

west London honourable friend I believe he is, for Hayes and Harling

:31:52.:31:55.

on the said, we would welcome that on this side, so you know, we

:31:56.:31:59.

wouldn't taunt him for that, if they want to do that. There is still

:32:00.:32:09.

time. So, he has a choice, the honourable, the right honourable

:32:10.:32:13.

member Coult continue on his tax give aways to the wealthiest in the

:32:14.:32:17.

country or he could reverse the tax breaks to the fewgo for a lower is

:32:18.:32:24.

plus target in 2019/20. While still ticking to his imposed charrer, his

:32:25.:32:29.

self emposed charter. He could still be in a position not to hit the

:32:30.:32:32.

three million working families with the cut, after all this is a

:32:33.:32:35.

government that claims to be on the side of working people, so the ball

:32:36.:32:39.

is in the court of the Treasury ministers opposite.

:32:40.:32:49.

Miry of for Selly Oak mentioned that often the lifting of those out of

:32:50.:32:53.

taxation is taken as a justification for these measures but this is not

:32:54.:32:57.

as progressive as it might initially appear. It helps dual owner

:32:58.:33:03.

households the most and only those who earn enough to begin with. It

:33:04.:33:08.

makes no difference if you start taxing at 6,000, 11 thousand horse,

:33:09.:33:13.

it can kick in at any level. If you are on 5,000. It won't help you,

:33:14.:33:18.

that is the lowest paid on the distributional curve. All studies

:33:19.:33:23.

show, people have said the national living wage, which is not an actual

:33:24.:33:29.

living wage, will only affect a small minority and those under 26

:33:30.:33:37.

never. Miry of for Don Valley pointed out that the childcare

:33:38.:33:40.

element is limited. In my constituency you would be

:33:41.:33:43.

hard-pressed to find a nursery that can offer that at all, there isn't

:33:44.:33:48.

the commensurate resource to match that. And people, people even before

:33:49.:33:54.

the mess of earlier ethis week, people will be wondering how they

:33:55.:33:58.

can trust the Prime Minister who blatantly said one thing on TV as

:33:59.:34:03.

recently as 30th April and just a couple of months later, in July, he

:34:04.:34:12.

promised that voter who phoned in, I think David Dimbleby did a

:34:13.:34:15.

supplementary to check it was clear. That is the fastest U-turn in

:34:16.:34:22.

history. It is, again, in PMQs yesterday it was claimed that MPs

:34:23.:34:27.

were claiming them. I hope that was the theatre of PMQ that made that

:34:28.:34:31.

happen. I have given way once so I would rather not.

:34:32.:34:36.

Reduced tax credits are being introduced alongside a gamut of

:34:37.:34:39.

other welfare change, the effect of which is an assault on the lowest

:34:40.:34:44.

paid in our country, so the, it is relevant to the moerks because it

:34:45.:34:49.

needs to be taken in context, I am sure the gentleman... Order, order.

:34:50.:34:56.

If the country, so the, it is relevant to the moerks because it

:34:57.:34:58.

needs to be taken in context, I am sure the gentleman... Order, order.

:34:59.:35:01.

If the lady was not - please sit down. If she was not speaking to the

:35:02.:35:04.

motion I would stop her, Thank you. It needs to be taken in the whole,

:35:05.:35:07.

in context with the four year benefit freeze reduction in

:35:08.:35:10.

household benefit cap. New claimants no longer are able to claim the

:35:11.:35:17.

family element and controversially the the proposal that after April

:35:18.:35:20.

2017 the third child of any family on wards would not be able to claim.

:35:21.:35:25.

I can't imagine that in any other policy Ayr area. Can you imagine

:35:26.:35:28.

saying the third child can't go to school. If it has my sister would

:35:29.:35:33.

never have been educated. A number of millionaire Tory Lord's voted on

:35:34.:35:37.

Monday to cut help for Britain's poorest workers so at the other end

:35:38.:35:42.

of the scale you have people like Lord Andrew Lloyd Webber, who was

:35:43.:35:46.

flown in from New York, I think, for this. So it seems, it did seem to

:35:47.:35:51.

some extent that the party opposite were throwing the kitchen sink at

:35:52.:35:55.

this. I do think there is growing awareness of the consequences of

:35:56.:35:58.

this. I mean etched into the consciousness of the front pen

:35:59.:36:03.

opposite, -- bench opposite should be that caller who rang in or the

:36:04.:36:07.

lady in tears on Question Time the other night after the election.

:36:08.:36:13.

So I do think that, and we have all through old and new, we have

:36:14.:36:17.

received hundreds of e-mails on this, we await the next instalment.

:36:18.:36:23.

The Autumn Statement. Hopefully kids have been saved the, the

:36:24.:36:26.

unseasonable tidings of this, the notices that would have been

:36:27.:36:31.

plopping on doormats at Christmas. The Government should publish a full

:36:32.:36:35.

impact assessment o their cumulative cuts to tax credits and benefits in

:36:36.:36:39.

the so-called emergency budget. I mean the PM said at his own

:36:40.:36:43.

conference it is not pounds and pence but people that fire him up.

:36:44.:36:48.

Those children in Ealing and Acton are real people. They real lives,

:36:49.:36:53.

not columns on the spread sheet. 70% of the money saved by this are going

:36:54.:36:58.

to be from working mums so I urge the Government to reconsider its

:36:59.:37:01.

proposals and protect those on the lowest incomes.

:37:02.:37:08.

Thank you Madame Deputy Speaker, may I pay tribute to the right

:37:09.:37:11.

honourable member for Birkenhead for securing this debate. I will support

:37:12.:37:16.

the motion, I will be making a short contribution. I come to support the

:37:17.:37:22.

debate from my perspective having live and worked abroad and my

:37:23.:37:26.

perspective more locally. I have lived and worked in communities

:37:27.:37:31.

where there is no welfare system whatsoever, I have also lived and

:37:32.:37:36.

worked in a community where almost ever everybody has been on some form

:37:37.:37:41.

of welfare or credit assistance. Neither of those two different

:37:42.:37:46.

situations are situations I would wish for my constituents. That is

:37:47.:37:53.

why I am fully supportive of the Chancellor's vision of high wage low

:37:54.:37:58.

tax, low welfare society. I know in the places where I have worked, that

:37:59.:38:02.

they would wish for this if they could achieve it in their

:38:03.:38:08.

communities. But I am also supportive of the noble Lord, Lord

:38:09.:38:12.

Lawson in the other place, and of what he has said, is that the

:38:13.:38:16.

welfare and the tax credits have ballooned. But I also agree with

:38:17.:38:26.

Lord Lawson, and the right honourable member for Howden, where

:38:27.:38:31.

by we must protect those at the lowest end of the income scale. That

:38:32.:38:38.

is where my experience of being NHS doctor and therapeutic councillor in

:38:39.:38:42.

this country and locally where I live, I have come across some people

:38:43.:38:46.

going through some of the most challenging times of their lives.

:38:47.:38:52.

But these people contrary to what the right honourable member of

:38:53.:38:55.

Birkenhead said do not have weak shoulder, they shoulders are

:38:56.:38:59.

stronger than mine, or anybody's here. These people that I have met

:39:00.:39:05.

single parents, who have escaped domestic violence, bringing up their

:39:06.:39:09.

children, difficult circumstances, and going out to work for some hours

:39:10.:39:14.

during the week, and they are going out to work because they want to,

:39:15.:39:19.

because they want to be a role model for their children. They are doing

:39:20.:39:24.

their best for their families, and we must do our best for them,

:39:25.:39:31.

because ultimately, they become role models for us, -- our society. I

:39:32.:39:35.

support the Chancellor in looking for mitigation measures, and I am

:39:36.:39:38.

very happy to support this motion today.

:39:39.:39:44.

Thank you. Thank you Madame Deputy Speaker.

:39:45.:39:49.

The last few weeks have been an absolute roller-coaster. We have

:39:50.:39:54.

heard passionate speeches from all sides, urging the Government to find

:39:55.:40:00.

another way forward. Time and time again, the moral argument has been

:40:01.:40:06.

put forward. But time and time again, political games have been

:40:07.:40:11.

played and votes lost. But, Mr Speaker, it is not about

:40:12.:40:16.

scoring points in this place, or that. This is about real people.

:40:17.:40:21.

Sorry Madame Deputy Speaker. It is about real people. It is about how

:40:22.:40:26.

we look after and care for those who are most in need. It is about

:40:27.:40:32.

fairness, about morals, it is about billing the kind of society we want

:40:33.:40:38.

to see. -- building. In PMQs yesterday the Prime Minister was

:40:39.:40:42.

asked six times to confirm that no-one would be worse off with Ness

:40:43.:40:48.

changes, but declined to do so. Earlier this week, I asked the

:40:49.:40:53.

Chancellor directly what he would be putting in place to ensure that the

:40:54.:40:59.

9,000 families in Lewisham Deptford, of which 5 thousand -- 5500 of these

:41:00.:41:04.

families are working families, how he and his Government would ensure

:41:05.:41:12.

they are not out-of-pocket by ?1300. At a time when rents are rising,

:41:13.:41:17.

when people are having to turn to food banks because they are

:41:18.:41:22.

struggling to pay their bills, and feed their families, people will

:41:23.:41:27.

turn to credit. People will fall into arrears with their rent. People

:41:28.:41:33.

will be made homeless. And what does the Chancellor have to say about

:41:34.:41:39.

that? That he is listening. Well, that is astart. That he will change

:41:40.:41:48.

his plans. No such luck as yet. No Madame Deputy Speaker e he says he

:41:49.:41:53.

will introduce a national living wage, a national living wage, what a

:41:54.:41:59.

cheek. The Living Wage Foundation do a fantastic job of campaigning for a

:42:00.:42:04.

real living wage. This is no living wage. This is quite simply spin. The

:42:05.:42:11.

Chancellor is grossly mistaken if he thinks that people will be fooled.

:42:12.:42:17.

He has stolen the brand of the a fantastic organisation, and in an

:42:18.:42:21.

instant contaminated and muddied the waters.

:42:22.:42:27.

When tax credits for introduced by a Labour government, they were

:42:28.:42:32.

introduced because there was a real need for them. This government's

:42:33.:42:36.

failure to build a better economy means that this need is still there.

:42:37.:42:43.

On that point, does she agree with me, we have had a great deal from

:42:44.:42:47.

the party opposite about the rise in tax credits over the last decade,

:42:48.:42:52.

the Institute of Fiscal Studies stated very clearly that child

:42:53.:42:55.

poverty would have stayed the same or risen rather than fall

:42:56.:42:58.

substantially without these increases in tax credits? There is

:42:59.:43:03.

evidence to suggest these reforms prevented large rise in inequality.

:43:04.:43:07.

That is what tax credit achieved and that is why the amateur is

:43:08.:43:14.

worthwhile. I thank her for -- why the expenditure is worthwhile. I

:43:15.:43:20.

thank her for her intervention. I am trying to remember where I was!

:43:21.:43:26.

Personally, I think it is wrong that government subsidises large

:43:27.:43:29.

employers. Large employers can and should pay their staff more. That is

:43:30.:43:34.

a solution that we should all be working on together. Not tit-for-tat

:43:35.:43:39.

political point scoring. And one of the best ways for staff to organise

:43:40.:43:43.

and put pressure on their employers is through their trade unions. If

:43:44.:43:51.

the government had any sense of moral code, it would be working with

:43:52.:43:59.

the trade unions to raise wages. And in the long-term, eliminate tax

:44:00.:44:02.

credits altogether. That must be the goal. But this government is doing

:44:03.:44:10.

anything but that. It is attempting to hamper the great work trade

:44:11.:44:15.

unions do by introducing the negative trade union reform Bill.

:44:16.:44:24.

You do recognise that the national living way which she has appointed

:44:25.:44:27.

is a way of addressing exactly the concern she has just raised? It has

:44:28.:44:32.

been a very effective way of raising the wages of those in employment.

:44:33.:44:38.

The national living wage that you are what talking about is not a

:44:39.:44:41.

national living wage that will drive our people's living standards. In

:44:42.:44:47.

terms of the cuts and in terms of people's wages at the time, people

:44:48.:44:51.

will be worse off because of these changes and that is the reason why

:44:52.:44:56.

this debate has come forward today. Madam Deputy Speaker, this

:44:57.:45:00.

government is a joke. The left-hander not know what the right

:45:01.:45:01.

hand is doing. The ploy left-hander not know what the right

:45:02.:45:07.

hand is doing. The policies are not adding up. Whilst they are laughing

:45:08.:45:12.

at people's stories of people being in the housing trouble, we are

:45:13.:45:17.

working to improve the lives of millions. I want to urge the

:45:18.:45:23.

government to halt the cuts to cut credits -- tax credit until we can

:45:24.:45:26.

guarantee that no family will be worse off. Thank you, Madam T

:45:27.:45:34.

speaker. I would like to thank the Right Honourable member of the

:45:35.:45:38.

Birkenhead for bringing forward this debate, this is the first

:45:39.:45:41.

opportunity I have had to contribute to the tax credits the bait. The

:45:42.:45:46.

primary aim of this government is to pay down the left, reduce our big

:45:47.:45:50.

spending and unshackle the ?3000 that hangs around every child's neck

:45:51.:45:59.

who is born within the UK. The Prime Minister in my constituency has

:46:00.:46:02.

literally lifted thousands of people out of the income tax threshold

:46:03.:46:06.

altogether, given 30 hours of free childcare and introduced the new

:46:07.:46:09.

living wage and I am proud to associate myself with these

:46:10.:46:12.

measures. When tax credits were first introduced by the party

:46:13.:46:16.

opposite, they cost ?4 billion per year. I believe this year they cost

:46:17.:46:20.

?30 billion so they clearly need some form of reform. I will give

:46:21.:46:26.

way. With the honourable member agree with me that understanding

:46:27.:46:34.

that working tax credits and tax credits are other means tested

:46:35.:46:37.

welfare benefit? Therefore if the welfare bill has gone up, it is

:46:38.:46:42.

because family's incomes have not risen significantly and that is the

:46:43.:46:45.

real reason that the bill has increased. We need to get income to

:46:46.:46:50.

go higher. I do accept the Right Honourable member's point, the

:46:51.:46:54.

honourable member's point. I would say that we are looking to try and

:46:55.:46:58.

increase the living way to to make sure people are better off in work

:46:59.:47:08.

than out of work. I am grateful. Surely the government is attacking

:47:09.:47:11.

this the wrong way round. They should be getting income up first

:47:12.:47:15.

before they cut people's wages. They are at the moment cutting peoples

:47:16.:47:20.

earnings and in four years' time, maybe, having a higher wage,

:47:21.:47:23.

something they are calling and national living wage which is not

:47:24.:47:27.

actually a living wage. Thank you for his contribution, I will get

:47:28.:47:33.

onto that as I go later. The debates that have been presented by the

:47:34.:47:37.

opposition, the debates that have been presented by the opposition

:47:38.:47:43.

over recent days has maintained the status quo. They believe this ?30

:47:44.:47:48.

billion tax credit Bill is one we should not change at all and I do

:47:49.:47:52.

not act at that. They have offered no edible plan to take this burden

:47:53.:47:58.

from our children. -- no credible plan. I am elected under a manifesto

:47:59.:48:02.

to reduce the welfare bill and I am hoping we will do that. On this side

:48:03.:48:06.

of the House, we know we have to take difficult decisions ahead in

:48:07.:48:10.

terms of spending reductions. It is all very well for the Leader of the

:48:11.:48:13.

Opposition to ask six questions on tax credits yesterday, but you

:48:14.:48:17.

cannot change a policy that affects 3 million families on a whim. And I

:48:18.:48:25.

welcome the Chancellor's statement that he will look at this in the

:48:26.:48:30.

Autumn Statement. Is he saying therefore that the reason the Prime

:48:31.:48:34.

Minister could not answer is because the government is not committed to

:48:35.:48:37.

protecting families from this problem? Absolutely not. I think we

:48:38.:48:44.

are seriously looking at this proposal and we will make some

:48:45.:48:47.

announcement in the Autumn Statement. North Cornwall, where I

:48:48.:48:51.

represent, is a very modest wage economy. We benefited from the

:48:52.:48:55.

economic improvements at the country has seen, we have seen a rise in

:48:56.:48:59.

school provision and a lot of people in my constituency have been helped

:49:00.:49:02.

with the help to buy scheme. They are trying to improve their lot in

:49:03.:49:06.

life and they are trying to do the right thing. As my right honourable

:49:07.:49:10.

friend from Tiverton said so eloquently earlier, we must ensure

:49:11.:49:13.

on this side of the House that we make it better for people to be in

:49:14.:49:17.

the works and out of work but we must support those who do work. I do

:49:18.:49:25.

not want to put him off, but coming back to a point made by the

:49:26.:49:28.

honourable gentleman opposite, we had a very cross-party nonpartisan

:49:29.:49:33.

discussion during the course of this debate and I thought I heard the

:49:34.:49:38.

honourable gentleman saying the party opposite is keen to see

:49:39.:49:48.

changes in the tax credits. Would he look forward to the remarks from the

:49:49.:49:51.

front bench opposite on how they would cut this Bill? I would welcome

:49:52.:49:54.

that because we have heard nothing from the opposition to hear how they

:49:55.:49:57.

would deal with this ?30 billion deficit. I thank him for giving way.

:49:58.:50:06.

The Labour Party has voted against every single welfare change made

:50:07.:50:12.

over the last five years. That is absolutely correct, I agree with my

:50:13.:50:15.

honourable friend. It is ultimately our response ability to look at all

:50:16.:50:18.

of the financial provision we provide us government and ensure

:50:19.:50:21.

that money is distributed to people who are trying to do the right

:50:22.:50:26.

thing. I will give way more time. Can we be clear here? The honourable

:50:27.:50:31.

gentleman attacks Labour for having a policy we do not have, that is

:50:32.:50:34.

unacceptable. Our policy is not to continue with 30 million pounds of

:50:35.:50:39.

tax credits for evermore. As my honourable friend said in a speech

:50:40.:50:43.

before his speech, we want to change it, it is a question of phasing, as

:50:44.:50:49.

to whether you cut incomes from tax credits before wages go up. That is

:50:50.:50:53.

the government's policy and that is what we oppose. Forgive me, my right

:50:54.:50:58.

honourable friend, I believe that the two opposition day debates were

:50:59.:51:03.

acted to abolish this proposal completely. This government knows it

:51:04.:51:09.

needs to make tough decisions but it also needs to make them with

:51:10.:51:13.

fairness and with compassion. Measures, the measures that we are

:51:14.:51:18.

putting in place to manage that transition to be welcomed. And it is

:51:19.:51:22.

true I think that the national wage, the freeze ghoul childcare

:51:23.:51:26.

arrangement and the social rent reductions that have been in

:51:27.:51:30.

fermented for people who live in social rented homes will be helped

:51:31.:51:35.

with some people managing that transition. However I do believe it

:51:36.:51:39.

is evident that some people will fall between the cracks. People with

:51:40.:51:44.

older children who do not necessarily have childcare provision

:51:45.:51:46.

that they can allocate, children between eight and 14, for example.

:51:47.:51:53.

Single parents, who earn more than the living wage currently. I think

:51:54.:51:58.

they will be affected. And those in private accommodation who do not

:51:59.:52:01.

benefit from the rental reductions. There are many economists in this

:52:02.:52:06.

house who are better than I, it is not something I profess to be

:52:07.:52:09.

particularly good at but I would like to offer some financial

:52:10.:52:13.

solutions. How about we go after VW at the present moment who seem to

:52:14.:52:22.

owe a huge amount of money to our government for the vehicle excise

:52:23.:52:28.

duty they have not paid? How about abolishing national insurance for

:52:29.:52:31.

anyone under the income threshold? We could have tax breaks for

:52:32.:52:35.

grandparent or a transferable allowance that 30 hours of free

:52:36.:52:40.

childcare. A lot of working families utilise grandparents to provide for

:52:41.:52:44.

care, I do not see any reason why we could not change the childcare

:52:45.:52:46.

arrangements so that we could interoperate over that. --

:52:47.:52:52.

incorporate some of that. We could consolidate new claimants. I welcome

:52:53.:52:58.

the opportunity to get on the record in this debate and this moment of

:52:59.:53:01.

poor that has been presented to us by the other place. I am here to

:53:02.:53:06.

stand up for the thousands of working people in North Cornwall and

:53:07.:53:10.

I urge the chance to assist them in their help to work and to end. -- to

:53:11.:53:22.

Turner. -- to earn. When the right honourable gentleman first oppose

:53:23.:53:25.

this debate, he wrote to me and a number of humbug -- other members

:53:26.:53:31.

and I agreed, this was before the storm broke. We have moved on as he

:53:32.:53:42.

acknowledged. I have worked with tax credits, and family credit and

:53:43.:53:46.

family income supplement. The inherent problem with the system was

:53:47.:53:52.

apparent from the start, being a low wage subsidy, to a low extent than

:53:53.:54:00.

they are now. The cost of the taxpayer was very apparent. These

:54:01.:54:07.

problems have gone away. As I said in an earlier debate, I have no

:54:08.:54:14.

problem impossible with removing tax credits as law -- long as we have

:54:15.:54:24.

fair wages for all. We need proper childcare provision available

:54:25.:54:28.

universally, and for my case, particularly in the pride and rural

:54:29.:54:31.

areas where the current provision is very poor and very patchy. I think

:54:32.:54:36.

it is also very important for rural areas in Wales, support for small

:54:37.:54:41.

businesses to enable them to earn and also pay a living wage. Those

:54:42.:54:46.

are the sorts of changes I would like to see and I would gladly agree

:54:47.:54:53.

to the Chancellor's proposals. I have not much of a problem with the

:54:54.:55:04.

fact that tax credit should go down as people earn more. The

:55:05.:55:08.

disincentive effects remain when high rate of combined tax credits

:55:09.:55:19.

and benefits reduce people's incomes. What incentive will there

:55:20.:55:23.

be for owning that extra marginal pound if that melts away with

:55:24.:55:29.

reduced tax credit and benefits as we heard earlier. I think it was 93p

:55:30.:55:34.

in the pound mentioned by another honourable member. I would point out

:55:35.:55:40.

that as the minimum wage or the national living wage rises, then the

:55:41.:55:51.

tax credits will reduce and the cost to the taxpayer goes down. But what

:55:52.:55:55.

the Chancellor intends goes well beyond what is normal and what is

:55:56.:56:01.

accessed four. Had he been happy to just operate the papers as they are

:56:02.:56:07.

now as a starting point, the threshold as they are, he would have

:56:08.:56:12.

gained tax revenue, had he been satisfied with that course of

:56:13.:56:17.

action, people earning more would claim less tax credits.

:56:18.:56:23.

Significantly, people be claiming less housing benefit which is a

:56:24.:56:28.

problem which is well-known to both sides of this house. He has gone

:56:29.:56:31.

further and done so deliberately. Tax credits will be withdrawn

:56:32.:56:39.

earlier and this is on top of the freeze on tax credit levels for four

:56:40.:56:42.

years and the limiting of the childcare elements for the first two

:56:43.:56:47.

children. I would like to ask the Minister in respect of childcare

:56:48.:56:52.

what discussions the government have had with the Welsh government,

:56:53.:56:56.

because the provision in Wales does vary significantly in some places

:56:57.:57:01.

from provision in England. But if we are tailoring system which is

:57:02.:57:08.

promotes proper childcare, there has to be consultation with the Welsh

:57:09.:57:10.

government and the Scottish Government and the Northern Ireland

:57:11.:57:11.

executive. I am concerned on the effects on

:57:12.:57:23.

people under 25. My concern is that this will reduce working incentives

:57:24.:57:28.

and deeping Chile poverty. We have heard a figure of 200,000 children

:57:29.:57:34.

being mentioned. There are I think geographical effects which I

:57:35.:57:39.

mentioned earlier. There are communities in Wales where large

:57:40.:57:43.

percentages of people take advantage of tax credits. The whole community

:57:44.:57:49.

will then be hit as those tax credits are worsened. Particularly

:57:50.:57:54.

for us in Wales, in west Wales in the valley, that region which has

:57:55.:58:00.

been identified as being very poor, and therefore subject to various

:58:01.:58:05.

European grants, on a par with parts of former Communist eastern Europe.

:58:06.:58:09.

And in some of those communities, many people claim tax credits in

:58:10.:58:15.

order to go out to low low paid work and I really am concerned that they

:58:16.:58:22.

will be struck very hard. So, I would repeat my call. Adding to what

:58:23.:58:25.

the right honourable gentleman said. That is when we have data, perhaps

:58:26.:58:36.

they could address that particular geographical distribution of the

:58:37.:58:40.

effects. To turn briefly to some of the points the right honourable

:58:41.:58:46.

gentleman raised, as I said, that is one point, childcare is another.

:58:47.:58:50.

Discussions I hope there have been with the Welsh Government. And I

:58:51.:58:56.

suppose it is almost a, almost a philosophical point we should

:58:57.:58:59.

recognise as a society the value that bringing up children has for

:59:00.:59:03.

us, as a society, and in terms of care for the elderly and in terms of

:59:04.:59:08.

the next generation, perhaps my social add invitation slip is

:59:09.:59:13.

showing here, as I say that, but I am a veteran of many campaigns, to

:59:14.:59:17.

save and secure child benefit, and that is one of the sensible

:59:18.:59:22.

arguments in favour of child benefit as far as I am concerned. To bring

:59:23.:59:27.

my remarks to an end, postponing the introduction of beyond the next

:59:28.:59:32.

April is clearly a very good point. Restricting it to new claimants

:59:33.:59:37.

again, something that I would agree with, though that would put them in

:59:38.:59:41.

that difficult position of going out to work for reduced tax credits, and

:59:42.:59:46.

I have already mentioned the disincentives to taking work that

:59:47.:59:50.

that might provide, so we have to be very careful with that one. Just

:59:51.:59:55.

lastly, on the pension tax relief, that has been mentioned, again, I am

:59:56.:00:00.

afraid I am a veteran of previous debates on tax credit, and it was

:00:01.:00:05.

one of the suggestions that my party made, when Adair Turner was

:00:06.:00:08.

reviewing pensions, the circumstances are different now, it

:00:09.:00:12.

was some years ago, but certainly we could have seen that happen then,

:00:13.:00:15.

and the Government's might not have been in the position they are in

:00:16.:00:17.

now. Thank you.

:00:18.:00:27.

It is a pleasure to follow a thoughtful contribution by the right

:00:28.:00:32.

honourable member. Can I add my claitions to the right honourable

:00:33.:00:35.

gentleman from Birkenhead on securing this debate. And the wisdom

:00:36.:00:42.

of the become business committee in granting such a debate. Of which

:00:43.:00:46.

pleasure I had of chairing the meeting. It is the first opportunity

:00:47.:00:50.

I have had to contribute to the vexed issue over tax credit, I do

:00:51.:00:54.

think it's a great shame the right honourable gentleman for Birkenhead

:00:55.:00:57.

was not able to convince his own party when in Government, of the

:00:58.:01:01.

wisdom of transforming the welfare system in this country, but we are

:01:02.:01:06.

where we are. My big criticism of the last Labour Government is that

:01:07.:01:11.

instead of reforming the welfare system, every time that there came a

:01:12.:01:16.

problem, a new benefit was set up, and it became unwieldy, and

:01:17.:01:19.

unworkable. And when I was elected in 2010, I had a series of people

:01:20.:01:26.

coming to see me, about the hugely complicated financial arrangements

:01:27.:01:30.

they faced, both on working tax credits, and, and child based tax

:01:31.:01:35.

credits. I give way. He said when the previous

:01:36.:01:40.

Government, when they had a problem, the answer was to increase the tax

:01:41.:01:44.

credit. Credit. The real problem is low wage, what this Government is

:01:45.:01:48.

trying to do to enable the workers to strive for a hiring wage, isn't

:01:49.:01:54.

going to help the situation at all. I thank him for his intervention, I

:01:55.:01:58.

that is not what I said. The welfare system, so we had a series of

:01:59.:02:01.

different welfare benefit, what ever the problem was, set up a new

:02:02.:02:05.

benefit, whether it's a tax credit, or another arrangement. That is the

:02:06.:02:11.

reality of the situation. Instead of dealing with the issue during a

:02:12.:02:16.

period of high relatively high unemployment, which the last Labour

:02:17.:02:20.

Government had, they didn't deal with the fundamental issues which as

:02:21.:02:22.

the honourable gentleman rightly pointed out, were that of low wages.

:02:23.:02:29.

Now, the reality is that when we set up this debate, billed at the last

:02:30.:02:33.

chance to review what the Government was proposing before it became fact.

:02:34.:02:37.

Events in the other place mean we are in a position where we can

:02:38.:02:41.

suggest alternatives and proposals forward. Therefore contributions

:02:42.:02:45.

this afternoon are helpful, I think to the Chancellor in deciding what

:02:46.:02:50.

he is going to do and what he comes forward with in the Autumn

:02:51.:02:53.

Statement. Clearly we have to strike balances here. The Conservative

:02:54.:02:57.

Party manifesto laid out that we were going to save ?12 billion in

:02:58.:03:02.

welfare. Now, the challenge for anyone is, to come forward with

:03:03.:03:07.

alternative proposals as to how well fair savings. Welfare savings of ?12

:03:08.:03:12.

billion will be found. Clearly, this is some four billion pounds of

:03:13.:03:17.

savings, that are envisaged. -- envy sad sanged. With where I start from

:03:18.:03:21.

is sympathy from the people affected. What happened when yo you

:03:22.:03:27.

reduce people's benefits, they will always complain. When you increase

:03:28.:03:32.

the tax threshold so they pay less tax, they will be happy. They won't

:03:33.:03:38.

complain. When their wages are increased they also won't complain

:03:39.:03:41.

but few you take benefits away they will squeal. What we have to look

:03:42.:03:47.

at, in the round, is clearly the effect on individual people. Now

:03:48.:03:53.

where people are working full-time, and have no alternative but to have

:03:54.:03:57.

tax credits to top up their salaries, their wage, that is where

:03:58.:04:01.

we must have the utmost sympathy. Because those people have no

:04:02.:04:04.

recourse there is no alternative. What do they do? They suffer a lost

:04:05.:04:09.

loss of income which must by definition impact their family, so

:04:10.:04:12.

what I would like to see the Chancellor do as the first thing, is

:04:13.:04:17.

to examine the measures so that the people that are in full-time work do

:04:18.:04:22.

not suffer any impact whatsoever, because I think it is grossly unfair

:04:23.:04:26.

on those individuals. Equally we face the challenge both in the

:04:27.:04:30.

public sector and the private sector, what has happened over due

:04:31.:04:36.

time as the Government have rightly reduced business taxation, to

:04:37.:04:39.

encourage businesses to grow their businesses, and to locate within the

:04:40.:04:44.

United Kingdom. That has to be good news because it is crating --

:04:45.:04:48.

creating job, they have also kept wages artificially low and that has

:04:49.:04:52.

to change. So I greatly support the principle of a living wage, but

:04:53.:04:56.

clearly, that living wage, as it is set at the moment, is far too low,

:04:57.:05:03.

and we need to see that increase, dramatically, so that work pays

:05:04.:05:09.

instead of supplying through the, through the taxpayer having to

:05:10.:05:11.

subsidise work in private industry. That cannot be right. That principle

:05:12.:05:16.

has to change, so I hope that the Government will look at this

:05:17.:05:19.

particular aspect, in particular, so that we can encourage businesses, to

:05:20.:05:24.

pay their staff more for the work they do.

:05:25.:05:28.

That has to be the right way, that we demonstrate that work should

:05:29.:05:33.

always pay. We also then have the criticism constant criticism from

:05:34.:05:37.

the party opposite, that there have been large numbers of part-time jobs

:05:38.:05:41.

created in this country. One of the reasons why that has happened, is

:05:42.:05:45.

clearly that a large number of people know that if they take on a

:05:46.:05:50.

part-time job for working 16 hours a week, they still have access to a

:05:51.:05:54.

large range of benefits. That is a lifestyle choice. I am not going to

:05:55.:05:59.

give away again because I have given way twice already. That is a

:06:00.:06:03.

lifestyle choice people make, what we can see is that Government

:06:04.:06:07.

proposals, restrictions on taxation and benefits do change people's

:06:08.:06:11.

habits. So what we have to do, then, is to enable people, I am not giving

:06:12.:06:17.

way a third time. What we need do is look at how people can change their

:06:18.:06:22.

behaviours to make sure their income is improved and increased. The first

:06:23.:06:26.

area, I think we have to look at, is childcare. Because working mothers,

:06:27.:06:33.

and for, who have childcare responsibility need to have access

:06:34.:06:36.

to proper and decent childcare. -- fathers. I applaud the Government on

:06:37.:06:41.

the 30 hours free childcare, that is is not good enough for whole ranges

:06:42.:06:45.

of families in this position, who can only therefore work part-time.

:06:46.:06:53.

So can the Government please look at improving the amount of free

:06:54.:06:58.

childcare given not to the limited range but extensively so more people

:06:59.:07:02.

in this country can choose to take on more hours at work, and therefore

:07:03.:07:07.

improve their incomes, at no cost to themselves. That would reduce the

:07:08.:07:13.

tax credits bill and ensure that there was greater productivity in

:07:14.:07:18.

our industry. So, those two measures would start to alleviate in problem.

:07:19.:07:24.

But I do think that the Government now, in listening mode, needs to

:07:25.:07:27.

consider where else we are going to save money from within the welfare

:07:28.:07:31.

system, and the challenge also has to come to the opposition, that if

:07:32.:07:37.

the opposition does not agree with reducing tax credits, where else

:07:38.:07:41.

within the welfare system the money would come from. So the clear

:07:42.:07:47.

challenge has to be there, and I look forward to in the summing up,

:07:48.:07:52.

some answers to some of these issue there is a have been raised through

:07:53.:07:58.

this debate. But the reality is, what I am concerned about, above all

:07:59.:08:04.

else, is the great uncertainty there is among my constituents as to how

:08:05.:08:08.

they will be affected next April where the changes to be introduced.

:08:09.:08:16.

As the royal put forward. One of the problems is people are making

:08:17.:08:20.

lifestyle choices. It is not fair on those families, who now are thinking

:08:21.:08:25.

about what they do in terms of their work, where people are studying,

:08:26.:08:30.

what actions they will take for their lifestyle, to be left in

:08:31.:08:33.

limbo, so the quicker this is resolved. The better for everyone

:08:34.:08:37.

concerned. Thank you.

:08:38.:08:43.

And I would like to thank my right honourable friend the member for

:08:44.:08:48.

Birkenhead for bringing this debate. A wiser Chancellor wouldn't have cut

:08:49.:08:52.

tax credits to some of the poorest families in Britain in the first

:08:53.:08:56.

place, but I do believe he has some wriggle room and he can put the mess

:08:57.:09:01.

he has created for Britain's families right. The child poverty

:09:02.:09:05.

action gripe believes that the proposed changes to tax credits will

:09:06.:09:10.

damage work incentives and increase child poverty. I think we have the

:09:11.:09:15.

message loud and clear, that the cuts will mean that work pays less.

:09:16.:09:22.

The changes affect recipients of working tax credit. Who by

:09:23.:09:29.

definition are in work. Analysis by the House of Commons library finds

:09:30.:09:37.

thaw 3.2 million will lose an average of ?1350 next year. Although

:09:38.:09:42.

doubt has been cast on this figure by the honourable member for more

:09:43.:09:46.

come and Lunesdale I do find generally the House of Commons

:09:47.:09:51.

library are fairly thorough and reliable. The same House of Commons

:09:52.:09:58.

library analysis found over 750,000 families earning between 10,000, and

:09:59.:10:07.

20,000 a year will lose up to ?2184 next year. Over 580,000 families,

:10:08.:10:20.

Britain's poorest working families, earning between 3850-6420 a year,

:10:21.:10:25.

face being taxed for the first time they will lose 48 pence in tax

:10:26.:10:32.

credits, for each pound they earn. Some low income families will keep

:10:33.:10:36.

just three pence in every extra pound they earn following the

:10:37.:10:41.

changing. Child poverty will increase, as 4. Changing. Child

:10:42.:10:43.

poverty will increase, as 4.4 billion will be taken from low paid

:10:44.:10:48.

families. These cuts are not compensated for

:10:49.:10:55.

by other changes, such as the so-called national living wage, the

:10:56.:10:59.

rising income tax threshold or the free childcare offer, and

:11:00.:11:04.

importantly, this impacts of these cuts have not been thoroughly

:11:05.:11:07.

assessed. Some working families will face an

:11:08.:11:18.

effective 97% tax rate, losing 32 pence in income tax and nationalen

:11:19.:11:25.

insurance payments and 48 pence in tax credit entitlement, leaving them

:11:26.:11:29.

with just three pence in the pound. At his last party conference speech

:11:30.:11:34.

before becoming Prime Minister, David Cameron argues against higher

:11:35.:11:38.

effective tax rates on low income families, saying if you are a single

:11:39.:11:43.

mother with two kids, earning ?150 a week, the withdrawal of benefits and

:11:44.:11:48.

the additional taxes mean that for every pound you earn you keep four

:11:49.:11:51.

pence. What kind of incentive is that? So what has changed? Two

:11:52.:11:57.

thirds of poor children live in a family where somebody works, and it

:11:58.:12:02.

is inevitable by taking 4.4 billion away from low income working

:12:03.:12:05.

families more children will be forced into poverty.

:12:06.:12:17.

Child poverty is rising, independent projections from the Institute of

:12:18.:12:20.

fiscal studies show clearly that the falls of child poverty rates will be

:12:21.:12:37.

reversed. The number of people receiving tax credits in my

:12:38.:12:42.

constituency is 9700. In the neighbouring constituency, that

:12:43.:12:48.

figure is 14,900. That is nearly 25,000 children affected across the

:12:49.:12:56.

borough of Rochdale. My constituents, one of them, e-mailed

:12:57.:12:59.

me saying, I am dreading going back to work. I am a single mother of

:13:00.:13:03.

three children and I know I am going to get backs soon but I am scared

:13:04.:13:07.

how we -- go back soon but I am scared how we will survive, I am

:13:08.:13:12.

already struggling as it is. Another constituent, public sector worker,

:13:13.:13:16.

wrote to me saying she provides essential public services and tax

:13:17.:13:20.

credits are an important part of her household income. She said that

:13:21.:13:25.

although she would gain from the ?80 increase in personal tax allowance,

:13:26.:13:28.

overall, she would be much worse off. Especially, as she said, if you

:13:29.:13:34.

take into account the fact that the government only wants me to get a 1%

:13:35.:13:39.

pay increase over the next few years. These women and many more

:13:40.:13:43.

like them speak for the reality of life for the working poor. Something

:13:44.:13:49.

which some in this house are comfortable into related from.

:13:50.:13:54.

Indeed, when I worked for the NHS, child tax credits help to me. They

:13:55.:14:00.

helped me to remain in full-time employment because it helps me

:14:01.:14:03.

afford a childminder for my school-age son. And of course we do

:14:04.:14:09.

welcome the higher minimum wage, and the increase in free childcare

:14:10.:14:13.

provision that as has been pointed out by many honourable members, that

:14:14.:14:17.

only goes so far. We need to get work incentive right, which will be

:14:18.:14:22.

critical in tackling in work poverty. And what we need to do

:14:23.:14:28.

first of all is to push employers into paying the living wage. And

:14:29.:14:34.

that is the real living way, not the government's national minimum wage,

:14:35.:14:39.

which is lower and does not apply to workers under 25 years of age. We

:14:40.:14:43.

need to tackle the causes of low pay, before we start cutting tax

:14:44.:14:51.

credits. I agree with my honourable friend, the member for Darlington,

:14:52.:14:55.

that the vote on Monday may have done the Chancellor favour. In

:14:56.:15:01.

giving him a breathing space and a chance to put this situation right

:15:02.:15:06.

by supporting working families instead of penalising them for doing

:15:07.:15:10.

the right thing. And although the Chancellor may have only just

:15:11.:15:14.

discovered that the House of Lords is unelected, I do hope that he will

:15:15.:15:18.

take this opportunity to reverse these tax credit cuts. Thank you.

:15:19.:15:25.

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I would like to congratulate the

:15:26.:15:29.

honourable member for Birkenhead and also the backbench business

:15:30.:15:31.

committee for granting us this very timely debate to reconsider the

:15:32.:15:37.

impact on the lowest paid workers of the proposed changes to tax credits

:15:38.:15:42.

and for the government to bring forward mitigation proposals for

:15:43.:15:46.

this house. Early next year, it is the centenary of the birth of Harold

:15:47.:15:51.

Wilson. And that Huddersfield glad coined the phrase that a week is a

:15:52.:16:00.

long time in the ticks. -- in politics. A lot of ermine and a

:16:01.:16:03.

flood of e-mails have flowed under the bridge since I signed this

:16:04.:16:10.

motion last week. I want to make it clear from the start that I

:16:11.:16:12.

absolutely support the Chancellor in getting in Britain to live within

:16:13.:16:22.

its means. I often suggests people talking about austerity replace it

:16:23.:16:24.

with the phrase living within their means, which brings a whole new

:16:25.:16:29.

meaning to the campaign slogan, antique living within your means.

:16:30.:16:33.

Since last week, many constituents have echoed my position. To follow

:16:34.:16:39.

the style of the Leader of the Opposition, I would like to say that

:16:40.:16:42.

Martin from the home valleys says, he agrees with the shift in tax

:16:43.:16:48.

credits to increase to pay, but he does share my concern about the

:16:49.:16:56.

transitional impact of the changes. Bob says, he understands the point I

:16:57.:17:01.

am making about employers underpaying staff and agrees with me

:17:02.:17:04.

on the need to reconsider the pace of change. Nicola says, she agrees

:17:05.:17:13.

that the tax credit system is is not perfect, as is the whole benefit

:17:14.:17:18.

system. Currently, she says, she would be better off financially

:17:19.:17:21.

reducing her hours as she works full-time. The way to change the

:17:22.:17:27.

system needs to be in fermented. She says she feels she is being

:17:28.:17:31.

currently punished by the benefit system by trying to bring home mail

:17:32.:17:36.

money by working her way up. A single person on income support on

:17:37.:17:44.

housing benefit can be paid out more in benefits than she rings home

:17:45.:17:48.

including her tax credits to support her family. And Dorothy says, she

:17:49.:17:52.

fully understands the need for reform. The motion today clearly

:17:53.:17:58.

states it is the pace and the impact on the lowest paid workers. I firmly

:17:59.:18:06.

believe that work should always pay. People should always be better

:18:07.:18:11.

off in a job than benefits. And I say that as someone who did not go

:18:12.:18:18.

to university. When I left school, I did a succession of low-paid

:18:19.:18:23.

part-time jobs before I joined the Royal Air Force at the age of 19,

:18:24.:18:26.

worked my way up and travelled the world. I am proud that since 2010,

:18:27.:18:35.

unemployment in my constituency is down by 51%. I am proud that use

:18:36.:18:42.

unemployment is down by more than one half. -- youth unemployment. I

:18:43.:18:50.

am proud that there is a net increase of 170 new businesses and

:18:51.:18:56.

there have also been over 4700 new apprenticeships started. I am proud

:18:57.:19:01.

to say I have just taken on my first apprentice and I campaign him the

:19:02.:19:06.

living wage. On Friday 20th of November, I am holding my latest

:19:07.:19:13.

jobs fair at the Civic Hall where over 30 local businesses and

:19:14.:19:16.

organisations will be offering quality jobs and apprenticeships. We

:19:17.:19:23.

must build a low tax, low welfare, high wage economy. And as a

:19:24.:19:27.

compassionate conservative, I want to live in a country where everyone

:19:28.:19:34.

has the opportunity of a decent, well paid job. So let's crack on

:19:35.:19:38.

with it, and let's stand up for working people. I welcome the

:19:39.:19:43.

Chancellor's announcement that he will lessen the impact on families

:19:44.:19:46.

and he will lessen the impact on families and people set out these

:19:47.:19:52.

plans in the Autumn Statement. I hope the Chancellor and his Treasury

:19:53.:19:56.

boffins will be listening very carefully to the various

:19:57.:19:59.

suggestions, some of them very, very inventive, the transition

:20:00.:20:06.

arrangementss. Madam Deputy Speaker, let's show that Britain can live

:20:07.:20:11.

within its means but most importantly, whilst looking after

:20:12.:20:17.

the most vulnerable and supporting those who go out and work everyday.

:20:18.:20:22.

I am going to make a very unusual statement. Members have been so

:20:23.:20:27.

disciplined and have taken so few interventions and have been so

:20:28.:20:31.

careful in their remarks this afternoon, that we have more time

:20:32.:20:38.

than I have had anticipated. I am therefore going to increase the

:20:39.:20:41.

limit on backbench speeches to eight minutes. So we will hear even more

:20:42.:20:50.

from Mr Alan Brown. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I welcome this

:20:51.:20:56.

debate today and I welcome for the most part the tone of the debate,

:20:57.:21:01.

particularly the early contributions from the benches opposite. I really

:21:02.:21:06.

hope these contributions are a sign that there is a mood swing across

:21:07.:21:10.

the whole government benches which, I must say, is in stark contrast to

:21:11.:21:17.

recent contributions. If it is OK, I would like to outline some of the

:21:18.:21:20.

previous actions of this house and contributions from members over the

:21:21.:21:26.

past week which had myself head scratching, and I am sure my

:21:27.:21:31.

constituents, in terms of the focus of this house. Last Thursday, one

:21:32.:21:37.

honourable member suggested that a public fund be set up to donate to

:21:38.:21:41.

the restoration of this house. I found that incredible. If I took

:21:42.:21:45.

that addition to my constituents, the only way I would get money is if

:21:46.:21:55.

I got them to donate to swear box if I suggested it. Another member said

:21:56.:22:00.

there was no need to reform the House of Lords, and we had a debate

:22:01.:22:16.

last Thursday, on the Euro, and a number of members over the other

:22:17.:22:21.

side suggested that this was the thing their constituents were most

:22:22.:22:26.

worried about. Over the weekend, we had the bill for Trident is up to

:22:27.:22:36.

?160 billion. That is a 67% increase and yet, the government does not

:22:37.:22:42.

flinch. They are still taking forward these proposals on tax

:22:43.:22:46.

credits. Monday night, there was a lost opportunity, I think, to kill

:22:47.:22:51.

the tax credit built stone dead. But at least the other place did flex

:22:52.:22:56.

some muscle and is causing the government to think again. There

:22:57.:23:00.

have been plenty of suggestions today on how we can take this

:23:01.:23:04.

forward. I should ask that the previous tone on some of the debate

:23:05.:23:07.

on tax credits has been very unhelpful, and I welcome the earlier

:23:08.:23:10.

contribution from the honourable member for Aberconwy. Which actually

:23:11.:23:17.

can condemns one of his friends for suggesting that one of the

:23:18.:23:23.

suggestions to make up for tax credits was to take to jobs or work

:23:24.:23:27.

longer hours, that is not practical and it is one way to work or soft

:23:28.:23:33.

into an early grave. -- work yourself. This is the number one

:23:34.:23:37.

issue for my constituents and I am pleased that the SNP has been

:23:38.:23:43.

consistent in arguing against the cut in tax credits. Within my

:23:44.:23:47.

constituency, there is an estimated 3800 working families that currently

:23:48.:23:52.

are likely to be affected by tax credit proposals unless they are

:23:53.:23:58.

amended. In previous debates we have talked about the high wage, low

:23:59.:24:02.

tax, low welfare system. That has been clearly blown out of the water

:24:03.:24:05.

by independent analysis and I welcome the fact that many

:24:06.:24:10.

Honourable members in the inches opposite have acknowledged that and

:24:11.:24:12.

they are calling for action to make sure we protect those on the lowest

:24:13.:24:18.

wages. We should not forget people who are not working and are looking

:24:19.:24:21.

to get into work, they are the ones who are in line to lose ?2000 per

:24:22.:24:27.

year. That is impossible. They cannot lose that money and sustain a

:24:28.:24:31.

family. A lot of people move in and out of work. Not only would they be

:24:32.:24:35.

potentially losing money when they are in work, if there are zero hours

:24:36.:24:41.

contract or they are unfortunate enough to lose their work, if they

:24:42.:24:45.

are out of work and they need support, that support is being cut

:24:46.:24:50.

dramatically. So what should we do? There have been some good

:24:51.:24:52.

suggestions earlier on but the first thing is, we need to bring in a

:24:53.:24:57.

proper living wage. A living wage in line with the cuts in tax credits so

:24:58.:25:01.

that we haven't the cuts in welfare to make sure people are protected in

:25:02.:25:06.

terms of income. -- we balance the cuts in welfare. The Chancellor

:25:07.:25:12.

could increase support for small and medium-sized enterprises to take on

:25:13.:25:15.

more employees, to help more people into work. I mentioned the cost of

:25:16.:25:20.

Trident, we could easily scrap Trident, and we could scrap the

:25:21.:25:23.

other place, even though we welcome the decision they made the other

:25:24.:25:27.

day, we still call for the other place to be scrapped. It is

:25:28.:25:32.

perfectly obvious there should be a cut in tax avoidance and evasion.

:25:33.:25:36.

The other night the SNP put forward a motion... I personally think we

:25:37.:25:48.

should press bows -- macro scrap the proposed right to buy social housing

:25:49.:25:56.

and the subsidies on the rights to buy. There is no way the taxpayer

:25:57.:26:01.

should be paying up to ?100,000 for somebody to purchase a home in

:26:02.:26:12.

London. In terms of in Scotland, it would be helpful if the UK

:26:13.:26:15.

Government allowed better borrowing powers for the Scottish governance

:26:16.:26:18.

so they can use those powers to invest in infrastructure and capital

:26:19.:26:23.

spend which will create jobs. I mentioned housing, the government

:26:24.:26:27.

should be building more housing. In government in Scotland we have been

:26:28.:26:29.

showing the way in building more showing the way in building more

:26:30.:26:32.

social housing, producing more jobs and a better standard for living for

:26:33.:26:37.

people. Then they are building energy-efficient homes which means

:26:38.:26:40.

that families are paying less in heating and makes it easier in terms

:26:41.:26:44.

of not having to make that difficult choice in terms of heating and

:26:45.:26:50.

eating. The other measures the SNP suggested, reintroduce the 50p tax

:26:51.:26:54.

rate. We should not raise the upper threshold. We could have a bank

:26:55.:26:59.

levy, mansion tax, and going through with the complete aberration of

:27:00.:27:01.

non-Dom status. The government does not have too go to the deficit so

:27:02.:27:12.

slowly -- quickly, it can go for a more delicate and balanced approach.

:27:13.:27:23.

We should not be looking at low-paid workers, and talking about the

:27:24.:27:30.

exception policy with a third child. Nobody from the opposite benches

:27:31.:27:34.

have intervened in that because it is an obscene policy and nobody can

:27:35.:27:40.

justify or explain it. I asked the government minister to speak with

:27:41.:27:43.

the Chancellor, revisit this whole package because the savings are only

:27:44.:27:49.

?4.6 billion. We need a proper strategic overview and that might

:27:50.:27:53.

get us to a long-term recovery plan which works in action not just in

:27:54.:27:56.

words cheered from the benches opposite.

:27:57.:28:01.

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Also the government are pursuing the

:28:02.:28:08.

right strategic course of supporting working families through the tax

:28:09.:28:12.

system, it's become very clear over the last few weeks the way this

:28:13.:28:15.

policy was being implemented was going to leave many poor and

:28:16.:28:22.

vulnerable families harshly exposed. As a result of the efforts of my

:28:23.:28:27.

honourable friend this debate, we can properly consider the

:28:28.:28:32.

transitional measures brought in to support those families. The current

:28:33.:28:39.

arrangements and the proposals the government have introduced are to be

:28:40.:28:43.

welcomed. The increase in the personal tax threshold will enable

:28:44.:28:46.

working taxpayers to keep more of the money they earn. The

:28:47.:28:49.

introduction of the national living wage is a bold and radical move

:28:50.:28:54.

which my honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer should

:28:55.:28:58.

be applauded. The government has rightly prioritised working families

:28:59.:29:03.

for the offer of 30 hours free childcare but these initiatives on

:29:04.:29:06.

their own don't go far enough and more transitional supporters needed.

:29:07.:29:16.

In the constituency I represent, people often work part-time. That

:29:17.:29:21.

like to work longer hours and earn more, and through hard work and

:29:22.:29:25.

training, they'd like to climb up a ladder of workplace progression. The

:29:26.:29:30.

problems they have is that this option isn't currently available to

:29:31.:29:34.

them. Has been an economic decline for 40 years. Traditional industries

:29:35.:29:39.

have gone, the factory gates have closed, and the fishing industry is

:29:40.:29:44.

a poor shadow of itself. Scene is repeated in many places around their

:29:45.:29:47.

country. To their credit, the coalition government and this

:29:48.:29:50.

government have recognised this fundamental flaw in the country's

:29:51.:29:55.

economy and they are putting in place policies that will reverse

:29:56.:29:59.

this decline and bring new jobs to many areas. Policies that will

:30:00.:30:03.

ensure that in the long term we will have a balanced economy where growth

:30:04.:30:09.

is not concentrated in a few places, and where opportunities are

:30:10.:30:11.

available for all across the whole country. Devolution, investment in

:30:12.:30:16.

infrastructure, investment in education and schools. These

:30:17.:30:21.

policies will work but they will not do so overnight. They will need

:30:22.:30:26.

time, and they may well need to be refocused, redesigned, and rebooted.

:30:27.:30:33.

In the short term, there is a need for support to ensure that the

:30:34.:30:37.

removal of working tax credits doesn't punitively hit those on low

:30:38.:30:42.

wages. There is no silver bullet, and there may well be a need for

:30:43.:30:45.

more than one initiative. The Treasury will need to weigh up very

:30:46.:30:50.

carefully what alternative tax-raising measures may be

:30:51.:30:54.

necessary in order to produce a balanced budget and to remain on

:30:55.:30:59.

course to eliminate the deficit. It is very important that any tax

:31:00.:31:04.

increases are progressive, and do not hit on fairly the poorest

:31:05.:31:09.

members of society. As mitigating measures, I make four suggestions.

:31:10.:31:17.

Full consideration should be given to phasing and the withdrawal of

:31:18.:31:21.

working tax credits, spreading out would be fairer and rising wages

:31:22.:31:26.

would help reduce the impact. Secondly, increasing the point at

:31:27.:31:30.

which employees start paying National Insurance should also be

:31:31.:31:33.

considered. This will be more effective than a further increase in

:31:34.:31:39.

the personal tax threshold as people will pay National Insurance from

:31:40.:31:44.

?8,164 compared to ?11,000 for income tax. Thirdly, the offer of

:31:45.:31:50.

tax breaks for those businesses who voluntarily and more quickly move to

:31:51.:31:53.

pay the national were living wage should also be looked at. And,

:31:54.:31:58.

finally, I think that we do need to review the current design of the

:31:59.:32:05.

universal credit. It is in many respects bizarre that the

:32:06.:32:08.

introduction of the universal credit and the withdrawal of working tax

:32:09.:32:11.

credits are being carried out at the same time by different apartments.

:32:12.:32:15.

This might explain why the government is in the position they

:32:16.:32:21.

find themselves today, with policies not properly coordinated. Working

:32:22.:32:23.

tax credits were introduced by Gordon Brown with apparently limited

:32:24.:32:30.

consultation with the DWP. It is a fatal flaw at the heart of

:32:31.:32:33.

government which should have been addressed a long time ago. The great

:32:34.:32:39.

advantage of universal credit is its simplicity. It'll boost employment,

:32:40.:32:44.

and it'll make it easier for people to understand why they are better

:32:45.:32:48.

off in work. However, it should be made more flexible. Much of the

:32:49.:32:52.

current emphasis is on getting one person in a household into work.

:32:53.:32:56.

There should be more focus on boosting employment within the

:32:57.:33:00.

household as a whole. There is a need to rebalance the incentives

:33:01.:33:05.

universal credit creates to better support single parents, second

:33:06.:33:08.

earners in families with children, and also the disabled. The universal

:33:09.:33:13.

credit should be made easier to use. It should not penalise families

:33:14.:33:15.

whose earnings and outgoings don't fit into the monthly pattern. There

:33:16.:33:24.

is a particular problem for the 800,000 self-employed households

:33:25.:33:26.

moving on to universal credit have to start to apportion their income

:33:27.:33:32.

on a monthly basis rather than through the annual HMC 's

:33:33.:33:37.

self-assessment. This creates a huge bureaucratic burden. I will give

:33:38.:33:45.

way. I agree with my honourable friend. He, like me, represents a

:33:46.:33:51.

coastal community with low pay. Would he acknowledge that as well as

:33:52.:33:54.

the help that needs to be given to those who are in receipt of the tax

:33:55.:34:01.

credits, we must pay particular attention to the fact that the

:34:02.:34:05.

spending power that is being taken out of the local economy, if we

:34:06.:34:11.

proceed with the proposals as the government previously outlined,

:34:12.:34:13.

would be detrimental to our areas, and that is something we have to

:34:14.:34:19.

take into consideration? Grateful to my honourable friend for making that

:34:20.:34:22.

intervention. He is, of course, quite right in making that comment.

:34:23.:34:28.

Very often, perhaps, when in the Treasury, you've got some very

:34:29.:34:32.

clever people there, you look at the country as a whole but you need to

:34:33.:34:36.

realise that things are very different in different places. The

:34:37.:34:42.

final point I want to make on universal credit is the requirement

:34:43.:34:46.

to provide childcare bills on a monthly basis could mean parents

:34:47.:34:51.

whose child care costs are high at certain times of the year will be

:34:52.:34:55.

financially worse off than they would be under the current system.

:34:56.:35:00.

Finally, for those receiving help with rate, the option of payments

:35:01.:35:04.

going straight to the landlord should be more easily accessible. In

:35:05.:35:10.

conclusion, Madam Deputy Speaker, in the longer term, I think the

:35:11.:35:14.

government need to take stock of their approach to welfare reform.

:35:15.:35:18.

They have been right to rise to the challenge and most of their policies

:35:19.:35:22.

have been successful. How they move forward needs careful thought and

:35:23.:35:29.

reflection. Perhaps, alongside the benefit cap, there should be a

:35:30.:35:33.

benefit ceiling. In the short term, in the next four weeks, there is a

:35:34.:35:39.

lot of work to be done to get this particular policy right. To ensure

:35:40.:35:43.

that it is fair, that it does not penalised the working poor. And that

:35:44.:35:48.

it does provide them with that ladder of work -based progression.

:35:49.:35:56.

Madam Deputy Speaker, this has been a very strange debate, it is as if

:35:57.:36:01.

we have managed to collect within the chamber of the House of Commons

:36:02.:36:06.

all the sensible people from all the parties, and have a serious debate

:36:07.:36:12.

about. It is unnerving to step out the comfort zone of yelling of each

:36:13.:36:19.

other and listen to sensible contributions, including the 1 we

:36:20.:36:23.

have just heard. And, perhaps, it is a lesson to all of us that maybe

:36:24.:36:26.

this is the way we should have done it in the first place. Before the

:36:27.:36:30.

Chancellor made an announcement. Actually to set out some broad

:36:31.:36:35.

principles, would need to reduce the welfare budget, we made a commitment

:36:36.:36:38.

in the manifesto and we'd like to look at these issues, we need to

:36:39.:36:43.

find ?12 billion, how might we best do it? And using the wit of all the

:36:44.:36:48.

people throughout the chamber, all the select committees that we

:36:49.:36:51.

nominate and a point which work incredibly hard on our behalf, I am

:36:52.:36:56.

perfectly sure we could have come up with something less painful, less

:36:57.:37:02.

crude and less crass, and saving the Chancellor a fair bit of grief as

:37:03.:37:06.

well. However, we didn't do it that way. We are doing it the other way

:37:07.:37:11.

around. And let's hope we can get to something like a sensible result. It

:37:12.:37:17.

also hope we will listen to the people out there. This is a classic

:37:18.:37:21.

debate, where we need to actually listen to the people who will be

:37:22.:37:25.

influenced, the people impacted. Often not very articulate people,

:37:26.:37:30.

often not necessarily people who will be in touch with a local member

:37:31.:37:34.

of Parliament, but I really want to speak up for all of those people,

:37:35.:37:38.

particularly in my own constituency of Nottingham North, the dinner

:37:39.:37:44.

ladies, the check-out staff, the administrative staff, nursing and

:37:45.:37:49.

teaching assistants, manual workers, all of whom need us, whatever our

:37:50.:37:55.

political persuasion, to be sticking up for them right now because we

:37:56.:38:01.

should all be in it together but, actually, very often it feels we are

:38:02.:38:05.

not. I looked at the numbers of people in my constituency who will

:38:06.:38:09.

benefit from the changes in inheritance tax. And I came up,

:38:10.:38:13.

after a lot of searching, with a large zero. Unfortunately, it didn't

:38:14.:38:19.

take me much time to find the numbers of the people in my

:38:20.:38:23.

constituency who will not be benefiting from these changes on tax

:38:24.:38:29.

credit. It actually amounts to 12,300 children in the families that

:38:30.:38:33.

are impacted. Why is it important to me? It is because I am to be MP for

:38:34.:38:39.

the second most deprived area in the UK in terms of child poverty in low

:38:40.:38:44.

income families. That is a matter of great concern to me. It is not all

:38:45.:38:49.

in it together because those kids are not in it with the people who

:38:50.:38:55.

are on higher incomes, and they should be shouldering a fair share,

:38:56.:38:59.

nothing more, a fair share of the tax burden our country. In effect

:39:00.:39:05.

what we are doing, those colleagues who missed out who know their food

:39:06.:39:12.

banks, this is in effect a food bank recruitment scheme on behalf of the

:39:13.:39:15.

government. And I think we need to be very, very careful about how we

:39:16.:39:20.

tread on this because no one is ready for it. Some of us believed

:39:21.:39:24.

the prime Minister when he was on television before the general

:39:25.:39:28.

election and said there would be no changes to the tax credit system.

:39:29.:39:32.

And that is the same prime minister who, sadly, was in this house with

:39:33.:39:36.

all of us just if you weeks ago saying he was delighted the cuts

:39:37.:39:41.

were voted through on the previous evening. That indicate something

:39:42.:39:46.

else, Madam Deputy Speaker, which is a contempt for institutions other

:39:47.:39:53.

than government. And I do Labour this point, I know, but the point

:39:54.:39:59.

about listening to people outside, it doesn't mean you are diverted

:40:00.:40:03.

from your principles, it means you can enable your principles better by

:40:04.:40:06.

listening to people who might be able to help you in a slightly

:40:07.:40:12.

better way. The other thing is the impact on broader families. Four out

:40:13.:40:17.

of five families in my constituency received tax credits because of the

:40:18.:40:22.

low income nature of my constituency, being in the top 20 of

:40:23.:40:25.

those constituencies that are deprived. We can do a job for them.

:40:26.:40:31.

We're not going to overturn necessary what the Chancellor thinks

:40:32.:40:36.

but members in this house can do as the member for Birkenhead has done

:40:37.:40:41.

and look at the question of papers, of thresholds, transitions, of the

:40:42.:40:45.

time all we need to allow people to adjust to a massive change that is

:40:46.:40:49.

going to take place in their life. Looking at the family element,

:40:50.:40:53.

looking consistently and reviewing and analysing over future years the

:40:54.:40:58.

impact of this so that we can mitigate it on the worst examples

:40:59.:41:03.

and the worst cases. I'm delighted today we haven't heard that word,

:41:04.:41:08.

scroungers, in this debate, or people having a free ride on the

:41:09.:41:13.

state and on the system because, as it happens, in my constituency, two

:41:14.:41:17.

thirds of those people who are on tax credits are at work. They are

:41:18.:41:22.

being subsidised to be at work by the rest of us, and subsidising

:41:23.:41:27.

low-paying employers. I will give way. Maybe one of the reasons this

:41:28.:41:34.

debate today has not been disfigured by such terms is because the people

:41:35.:41:40.

that my honourable friend is talking about are literally the people, the

:41:41.:41:44.

friends and families and neighbours that we stand alongside in

:41:45.:41:47.

supermarket queues and on the side of the rugby pitch on a Sunday

:41:48.:41:50.

morning, and so on. These are literally the people that we know.

:41:51.:41:56.

And they are not them and us. They are us. And that's why we have to,

:41:57.:42:04.

as we side alongside them in the supermarket queues, stand alongside

:42:05.:42:06.

them here as well because they deserve us.

:42:07.:42:11.

My honourable friend is absolutely right, although sometimes when we

:42:12.:42:17.

think this is a big issue and some of the media does, you would be

:42:18.:42:20.

amazed that people don't actually know that it is going to hit them.

:42:21.:42:25.

Until that letter drops. Until it actually happens. As a wise old bird

:42:26.:42:33.

once said, who used to be in the House of Commons, he taught me that

:42:34.:42:38.

lesson. He said it won't affect people's real lives until next

:42:39.:42:42.

April. And then there will be a shock and tidal wave of people

:42:43.:42:47.

saying, "my God, what are you doing to us. Why are you allowing this to

:42:48.:42:53.

happen?" And that's between -- by between now and then, we have to do

:42:54.:42:58.

our best to mitigate the worst consequences. I just want to say a

:42:59.:43:01.

few words about the National Living Wage. The National Living Wage is a

:43:02.:43:13.

bit like evil. It is so smart, but the reality is, is it really be

:43:14.:43:18.

substance? Is it really the detail of what people need in their lives?

:43:19.:43:23.

Saying you are going to have a national minimum wage sounds

:43:24.:43:25.

fantastic, but if it doesn't actually mean that your income is

:43:26.:43:29.

going to be at least as good as it exports before, it is a fraud. -- as

:43:30.:43:36.

it was before. I thank him for giving way. Does he agree with me

:43:37.:43:41.

that the National Living Wage is not the actual living wage, which is set

:43:42.:43:45.

by the living wage foundation, which is far higher than the governments

:43:46.:43:50.

of National Living Wage. And that to call it a living wage is a misnomer?

:43:51.:43:55.

I totally agree with her intervention. The living wage

:43:56.:43:59.

foundation has already blown that myth out of the water and said it is

:44:00.:44:03.

not actually what everybody else seems to think of as being the

:44:04.:44:07.

living wage. The Institute for Fiscal Studies, our own House of

:44:08.:44:15.

Commons library have both said that the so-called National Living Wage

:44:16.:44:19.

doesn't make good what people will lose and both of those highly

:44:20.:44:22.

authoritative independent organisations say it will only cover

:44:23.:44:26.

about one quarter of the loss that family will incur. Then you have a

:44:27.:44:35.

lot of other factors, like being compounded, the difficulties being

:44:36.:44:41.

compounded around the idea of Universal Credit. And all this in

:44:42.:44:46.

terms of my constituency is showing that deprivation is not being

:44:47.:44:49.

addressed and analysis IT in the way that it should be. Over the last

:44:50.:44:57.

five years, in my constituency, 5.9% more people are in the category of

:44:58.:45:01.

being deprived than they were five years ago. And I just asked the

:45:02.:45:05.

Chancellor to try to understand this. It isn't always Witney and

:45:06.:45:14.

pattern. Those are the 20 most deprived constituencies, like

:45:15.:45:18.

Liverpool Walton, Manchester Central. That's where our people

:45:19.:45:22.

live and where people need their representatives to stick up for

:45:23.:45:27.

them. That's where the free market, politically, doesn't work, inviting

:45:28.:45:31.

people over for shooting or writing. That is not where I live, it's not

:45:32.:45:36.

the way other people will get that message over and have their voices

:45:37.:45:40.

heard. It is by sensible people that we have heard from all parties

:45:41.:45:47.

briefly. In the spirit of this briefly. In the spirit of this

:45:48.:45:54.

cross-party co-operation, does he not accept that there are some small

:45:55.:45:58.

businesses where we don't go sheeting and were not into that kind

:45:59.:46:03.

of behaviour. -- shooting. But there are some that appreciate the fact

:46:04.:46:09.

that the Treasury is allowing them to adapt to a new National Living

:46:10.:46:13.

Wage. And the time allowed was not necessarily made available to those

:46:14.:46:19.

recipients of tax credits. The honourable gentleman will forgive

:46:20.:46:25.

me, I'm not trying to trivialise it. We all need to work together and

:46:26.:46:30.

put our points collectively said the government will listen, something

:46:31.:46:34.

they should have been doing before and I represent lots of places, area

:46:35.:46:42.

is not known to places Leigh people in this chamber today. Real people,

:46:43.:46:46.

as you all have in your constituencies. -- these people. And

:46:47.:46:56.

they will be hit hard by this. The technical knowledge around those

:46:57.:47:01.

issues, I am not so were rough, but let's make the best of a very, very

:47:02.:47:10.

bad job. -- so aware of. It's a pleasure to speak in this debate. I

:47:11.:47:18.

echo his comments that I have been sitting through. Far more positive

:47:19.:47:26.

than some of the ones we sometimes see. I would like to thank the

:47:27.:47:32.

member for Birkenhead in securing this debate and I knew I could look

:47:33.:47:38.

forward to a measured speech that he would give and he delivered on it.

:47:39.:47:43.

In terms of speaking today, I wanted to start with do I believe that the

:47:44.:47:50.

tax credits system needs reform? At the moment, six out of ten families

:47:51.:48:01.

receive it. You can receive it and the House of Commons library shows

:48:02.:48:08.

some that are over ?40,000 receive some of it. So it was interesting to

:48:09.:48:16.

hear that one said it was a bill that needs to be reduced. It will be

:48:17.:48:20.

interesting to see what proposals are brought forward. I do support

:48:21.:48:28.

the Chancellor 's aims, doing a high wage, low welfare economy. In my

:48:29.:48:34.

constituency over the last five years, there are less people on

:48:35.:48:38.

unemployment benefit, more people getting opportunities and seen the

:48:39.:48:43.

investment going in to create more jobs and see a real drive to help

:48:44.:48:49.

people get on in life and make a difference to them and their

:48:50.:48:53.

families. That's what I support. That's the core of the reasons I am

:48:54.:48:57.

here and practices on these benches as a Conservative member of

:48:58.:49:07.

Parliament. -- proud to sit. I will end up voting to this motion if I

:49:08.:49:13.

end up sitting on it. My family was rich in love, if not in money when I

:49:14.:49:19.

was growing up. My father worked as a painter and my mother was a

:49:20.:49:27.

teaching assistant. I disagree with some of the members opposite. I

:49:28.:49:33.

think it's right we give people the opportunity to buy their own house.

:49:34.:49:37.

I grew up in a house where my parents were able to be helped to

:49:38.:49:43.

buy their own houses. Ironically, that was brought in by a Labour

:49:44.:49:49.

government. It's not that long ago that those on the left were arguing

:49:50.:49:52.

that people shouldn't be paying rent, they should be owning their

:49:53.:49:58.

own homes. It is right we continue that opportunity for a new

:49:59.:50:02.

generation, based on dealing with having more housing supply coming.

:50:03.:50:09.

For me, we do need to have some clever ideas around how to mitigate

:50:10.:50:15.

it. I notice we seek the usual magic money trees presented by some. Those

:50:16.:50:20.

are the same people whose oil revenue projections weren't exactly

:50:21.:50:23.

accurate last year either. Sticking to the issue, I have confidence the

:50:24.:50:28.

Chancellor will come forward in the Autumn Statement with proposals to

:50:29.:50:31.

mitigate the impact for the lower paid and that is why I am happy to

:50:32.:50:35.

support this motion to ask the government to look at it again. I

:50:36.:50:40.

think the actual hit, it is fine to talk about the destination of a high

:50:41.:50:47.

wage, low welfare economy. Go on then. I wonder if he could enlighten

:50:48.:50:52.

us on how the Chancellor was going to forecast for the debt reduction

:50:53.:50:58.

in the last parliament? Let me talk about how we have an economy moving

:50:59.:51:03.

forward, we have increased health spending, which has not happened in

:51:04.:51:07.

Scotland and I must say, if we talk about what is happening in Scotland,

:51:08.:51:16.

last week 's daily record, our failing NHS is the SNP's fault. --

:51:17.:51:27.

daily record. But going back to what we are here to debate today, it is

:51:28.:51:30.

always lovely to have an accompaniment from this benches.

:51:31.:51:36.

It's not the e-mails I've received, It's not the e-mails I've received,

:51:37.:51:40.

it's not the stuff in the media, it's about the thousands of families

:51:41.:51:44.

I represent that are like the family I came from. And whatever we may

:51:45.:51:48.

think of the destination of this policy area, it is about making sure

:51:49.:51:52.

that the journey we go to get to it is one that doesn't impact on people

:51:53.:51:59.

who are trying to do their best in life. As I listened to the

:52:00.:52:06.

Birkenhead speech, I think it is important is that we have

:52:07.:52:10.

alternatives that don't make things worse or create the wrong

:52:11.:52:16.

incentives. One member made a point about the House of Commons library

:52:17.:52:23.

figures on his proposals, and indicated an effective taxation rate

:52:24.:52:29.

of almost 100%, which would be higher than what anyone in the world

:52:30.:52:36.

is paying in terms of income. It would be strange to implement that

:52:37.:52:42.

just to the people on under ?20,000. When it turns into something like

:52:43.:52:45.

that, it would be a disincentive to work. For me, I look forward to

:52:46.:52:53.

seeing what the government bring forward. I also look forward to

:52:54.:52:59.

continuing engagement with the Treasury bank. And I think it is

:53:00.:53:08.

right that we cannot just oppose and not offer up alternatives and I hope

:53:09.:53:14.

there will be clear engagement with members of this house and with

:53:15.:53:21.

Parliament on how we can mitigate them and deliver them on a

:53:22.:53:26.

deliverable settlement, which means we achieve our fiscal goals, which

:53:27.:53:32.

were so strongly endorsed in the UK General Election not that long ago.

:53:33.:53:35.

It has been a pleasure to sit through this debate and it will be a

:53:36.:53:44.

pleasure to welcome the proposals put forward to mitigate the impact

:53:45.:53:49.

on the lowest paid, as this motion calls for. Thank you. Can I just

:53:50.:53:57.

started by welcoming the Chancellor's announcement on Tuesday

:53:58.:54:00.

that he will be bringing measures forward to mitigate the changes to

:54:01.:54:04.

tax credits, but the question that is on all of our lives is how far

:54:05.:54:09.

does this inclination stretch? To mitigate some to mitigate all? My

:54:10.:54:17.

message is very clear. Changes must be of a certain way. They should be

:54:18.:54:22.

tapered, so people don't lose out. They should be phased in. The

:54:23.:54:27.

package should increase incomes at the same rate as which tax credits

:54:28.:54:33.

are tapered off. It's easy to admit that I have certain sympathies with

:54:34.:54:37.

the principle being pursued here. I think everybody, everybody sensible

:54:38.:54:44.

person -- every sensible person should agree that work should pay.

:54:45.:54:52.

In an ideal world, the government wouldn't need to prop up wages. But

:54:53.:54:57.

we don't live in that ideal world at the present moment. The economy is

:54:58.:55:02.

not in that position. The government had intended to put the cart before

:55:03.:55:09.

the horse. As a cynic, I don't believe the Chancellor's statement

:55:10.:55:14.

had compassion at its heart. For me, it was driven by fear, fear of

:55:15.:55:19.

losing power in the phoney constitutional law that has now been

:55:20.:55:26.

started with the other place. Yes, of course. I agree with my

:55:27.:55:33.

honourable friend that the second chamber has forced the Chancellor's

:55:34.:55:37.

hand here, but would he agree with me that despite their intervention,

:55:38.:55:42.

it still does not legitimise the constitutional absurdity that is an

:55:43.:55:47.

unelected, unaccountable, and ever-growing legislator at the end

:55:48.:55:52.

of the corridor? I think the house would be unsurprised to know that I

:55:53.:55:57.

completely agree, just because it sees sense on one particular issue,

:55:58.:56:04.

it doesn't legitimise it. The Chancellor's statement was

:56:05.:56:07.

predicated on much as the fact that as an unelected chamber, it stuck

:56:08.:56:15.

its nose into financial matters, so it it's corroborate our view that

:56:16.:56:22.

the other patient should go. -- place should go. We should put

:56:23.:56:26.

ourselves back in the shoes that many of us walked in not so long

:56:27.:56:31.

ago. Figuring out what ordinary people would lose them finding that

:56:32.:56:36.

completely and utterly unacceptable. We were elected in this place to

:56:37.:56:40.

protect vulnerable people. Not to punish them. I was going to use this

:56:41.:56:48.

time to talk about some of my constituents in detail. And outline

:56:49.:56:52.

precisely how these changes could destroy their lives. I was going to

:56:53.:57:02.

Katie and Ollie are going to lose over ?100 a month. So they might not

:57:03.:57:09.

be able to take the mountain bike tracks at the weekend. She will move

:57:10.:57:14.

from fresh to frozen food. Katie has no support network for Ollie, she

:57:15.:57:19.

has no choice but to work part-time because her sister has recently

:57:20.:57:23.

passed away. When Ollie isn't a school, she must be available and

:57:24.:57:28.

with him. She works all the hours available to her, she's got nowhere

:57:29.:57:32.

to go with this. I was going to tell you about Jenny, who was

:57:33.:57:37.

self-employed as a childminder. Her partner is also self-employed. They

:57:38.:57:43.

will lose ?130 a month. Jenny worries that her customers who are

:57:44.:57:47.

in receipt of tax credits will no longer be able to use her service.

:57:48.:57:52.

Jenny told me she literally lies awake at night wondering what this

:57:53.:57:55.

place is going to do to destroy her life. I was going to tell you more

:57:56.:58:01.

about Jenny Katie and others but these stories would only have impact

:58:02.:58:05.

if they were listened to by members opposite who displayed some

:58:06.:58:07.

compassion. It has been the case that most of the speeches today have

:58:08.:58:12.

moved into the realms of compassion, and I welcome that, but it is the

:58:13.:58:17.

compassion of the 300 members that are not here today that really

:58:18.:58:22.

concerns me. So, instead of considering how the cuts will affect

:58:23.:58:26.

Katie and Jenny, perhaps the benches opposite should consider how these

:58:27.:58:31.

cuts will affect them as MPs. What have they got to fear? One of the

:58:32.:58:37.

first changes they may notice, and we all may notice, is that our high

:58:38.:58:43.

streets start to struggle more than they are. High streets are

:58:44.:58:47.

struggling in my constituency and the removal of ?4.4 billion from

:58:48.:58:52.

people's pockets, these are not Internet bargain hunters but people

:58:53.:58:55.

who shop on a high streets, it'll compound a precarious situation. If

:58:56.:59:04.

we remove money from people who shop on our high streets, prepare, my

:59:05.:59:09.

honourable friends, for more charity shops. Members may begin to notice

:59:10.:59:14.

the police services in the local areas are busier than they used to

:59:15.:59:18.

be. And they might wonder why instances of crime have increased.

:59:19.:59:23.

It'll be because desperate people, young people with no hope, people

:59:24.:59:27.

disenfranchised from the communities in government, people like that

:59:28.:59:32.

often turn to crime. If we can mitigate these changes in full, it

:59:33.:59:38.

may well be cost-effective. Members may notice over the course of the

:59:39.:59:41.

next Parliament the performance of schools might begin to drop. Members

:59:42.:59:46.

may see them falling down the league tables and wonder why. This will be

:59:47.:59:52.

happening because hungry children do not learn well. Katie is beginning

:59:53.:59:56.

to really worry about Ollie's education as a result of these

:59:57.:00:00.

proposed cuts. The food budget will be the first thing that struggling

:00:01.:00:04.

families will cut and this will have an immediate impact on the

:00:05.:00:08.

educational achievements of the children in all of our

:00:09.:00:13.

constituencies. How many of the absent members on the opposite

:00:14.:00:17.

benched dining out? I suspect quite a few. Nice to have a range of

:00:18.:00:20.

different restaurants to choose from. Well, Madam Deputy Speaker,

:00:21.:00:25.

they did enjoy them while they can because these, too, would be under

:00:26.:00:30.

threat because the hospitality industry, in which I was brought

:00:31.:00:34.

up, depends upon a thriving local economy. Many of the people we

:00:35.:00:38.

welcome to Dumfries Galloway on holiday are people from the rest of

:00:39.:00:41.

the UK who can't afford to go abroad. People in receipt of tax

:00:42.:00:48.

credits. The holiday will be one of the first cuts from the annual

:00:49.:00:51.

budget. Do I need to continue? Make no mistake, these tax credits will

:00:52.:00:58.

have an impact on the absent Tory MPs, too. If the government cannot

:00:59.:01:02.

mitigate the cuts in full, they'll be responsible for the demise of all

:01:03.:01:08.

of our communities. The constituents of Tory constituencies will not

:01:09.:01:12.

thank them, and I doubt they will re-elect them. Madam Deputy Speaker,

:01:13.:01:16.

I look forward to hearing how the government will mitigate in full the

:01:17.:01:21.

very wide and far reaching effects of these unnecessary and wholly

:01:22.:01:30.

ideological cuts. Thank you, that Deputy Speaker, it is a great honour

:01:31.:01:34.

to follow the honourable member the Dumfries Galloway. I have been one

:01:35.:01:38.

of those who has visited that constituency on holiday and I

:01:39.:01:40.

remember one particular evening being bitten alive by midges. We had

:01:41.:01:47.

to escape on our car and smoke cigars to keep them away. Of course,

:01:48.:01:52.

there was nobody under the age of 18 in the car at the time. One very

:01:53.:01:56.

noticeable thing that happened earlier this month, which may not

:01:57.:02:01.

have come to people's attention, was that the IMF, not an organisation I

:02:02.:02:12.

have always had a lot of some lethal -- sympathy for made a statement,

:02:13.:02:16.

which was that excessive inequality damages growth. It damages the

:02:17.:02:23.

economy, and I think it is amazing, and very welcome, that the IMF has

:02:24.:02:28.

come to that conclusion. It has come to that conclusion not just in

:02:29.:02:31.

respect of developing countries but in respect of any country. In my

:02:32.:02:36.

opinion, tax credits have been a means of reducing inequality in this

:02:37.:02:45.

country. When I spoke last week, the opposition led debate last week, I

:02:46.:02:50.

urge the government to look again at this policy, and in particular the

:02:51.:02:54.

timing. I'm so glad the Chancellor has said he will do this and will

:02:55.:02:59.

bring forward measures. I'd like to pay particular tribute to my

:03:00.:03:01.

honourable friend the minister sitting in his place now because he

:03:02.:03:05.

has always been listening, and is a great credit to his position, as

:03:06.:03:11.

indeed has the Chancellor's PPS, sitting behind him. The honourable

:03:12.:03:20.

member for Kingswood, of course. I mentioned to other things. One was

:03:21.:03:26.

the predictability that income is about predictability. It isn't just

:03:27.:03:30.

about levels of income. If you can't predict your income, it is a great

:03:31.:03:36.

driver into relative poverty. We see that all over the world. Therefore,

:03:37.:03:39.

the proposals that were originally before us were to lead to cut soft

:03:40.:03:50.

10-15% without knowing what was going to happen, so getting a letter

:03:51.:03:54.

in December will turn two January for something happening in a couple

:03:55.:03:58.

of months, you will not have had opportunity to correct that. When

:03:59.:04:04.

you have a low income, things are more expensive. The inflation rate

:04:05.:04:07.

is much higher on low incomes than it is for people on higher incomes.

:04:08.:04:14.

You aren't buying products that come down in price, you are not going

:04:15.:04:21.

with easyJet on holiday, something which may have affected the

:04:22.:04:26.

inflation, and we need to bear that in mind. The inflation might be 0%,

:04:27.:04:32.

but it isn't 0% for people on the lowest incomes. I will give way.

:04:33.:04:40.

Would the honourable gentleman agree with me that poverty in this country

:04:41.:04:45.

is poverty of aspiration, and that the people we are talking about

:04:46.:04:50.

today are trying to work themselves out of that kind of poverty? If we

:04:51.:04:54.

see everything in terms of income, we are a poorer society, as John F.

:04:55.:05:01.

Kennedy once said. Honourable members have also talked about the

:05:02.:05:06.

fallacy of trickle-down economic. I've seen around the world when

:05:07.:05:09.

trickle down economics was supposed to be the way the poor would get

:05:10.:05:16.

richer. What we need is surge up economic speakers the people on the

:05:17.:05:20.

lower incomes spend the money locally, goes into taxes, it goes

:05:21.:05:25.

into VAT. Several hundred million of the 4.4 billion. So we have to

:05:26.:05:34.

remember the consequences on the effects of the local economy, the

:05:35.:05:38.

loss of the spending power. If one thing is to be reduced, then we must

:05:39.:05:44.

seize the other sources of income increase simultaneously. There is

:05:45.:05:46.

also the impact I mentioned last week and other honourable members

:05:47.:05:53.

have mentioned, those on fixed incomes, full-time carers, for

:05:54.:05:56.

example, who won't see rises in their income. They have no

:05:57.:06:00.

opportunity to work more hours most of the time. Also the impact on the

:06:01.:06:06.

self-employed and on farmers. In my constituency, they've seen milk

:06:07.:06:09.

prices fall. That is the only source of income, and they are reliant on

:06:10.:06:13.

tax credits as much as anybody else. Sometimes people see those who are

:06:14.:06:19.

asset rich, those delivering on milk week in week out, our wheat, their

:06:20.:06:25.

incomes are low and they rely on tax credits as well. I'd like to also

:06:26.:06:31.

look to the future. Other than the Macs have mentioned areas where we

:06:32.:06:38.

could raise the extra income to offset the cost of deferring the

:06:39.:06:46.

reductions in tax credits. I mentioned a couple last week and I

:06:47.:06:49.

won't repeat those. But I want to make a couple of points about the

:06:50.:06:53.

future. The first is about National Insurance. There's been talk about

:06:54.:06:57.

merging income tax and National Insurance. I think that would be a

:06:58.:07:02.

big Mac mistake. I believe it is incredibly important to have a

:07:03.:07:06.

progressive national, social National Insurance system into which

:07:07.:07:10.

people contribute, even at low incomes, perhaps at low rates, but

:07:11.:07:14.

which they feel they have a stake in, and to which they are entitled

:07:15.:07:19.

to receive benefits from, if the need arises. And I would urge that

:07:20.:07:24.

the government looks very closely at how instead of getting rid of

:07:25.:07:27.

National Insurance we can actually improve it, and improve the National

:07:28.:07:31.

Insurance system so that we are more like the German system, perhaps,

:07:32.:07:36.

where you contribute more into a National Insurance system but you

:07:37.:07:41.

have benefits when you are sick, and when you are out of work, and,

:07:42.:07:47.

eventually, when you retire. The second thing, Madam Deputy Speaker,

:07:48.:07:52.

is to look at our savings. We don't safe enough. That's a fact. Looking

:07:53.:07:58.

at other countries, like Italy, they are far better at saving. The

:07:59.:08:02.

Japanese are excellent saving. That's why when colleagues of mine

:08:03.:08:08.

and I produced a report calling on social stability last year, we

:08:09.:08:12.

emphasised the importance of introducing a lifetime's savings

:08:13.:08:19.

account which could be supported, perhaps, through tax-free

:08:20.:08:21.

contributions over the course of your lifetime which you to be able

:08:22.:08:25.

to draw down at particularly difficult points in your life, if

:08:26.:08:28.

you became seriously ill, if you are out of work, and could eventually be

:08:29.:08:33.

converted into part of your pension. What that would encourage people to

:08:34.:08:38.

do is put aside money, supported by the state, and that would be able to

:08:39.:08:44.

top up what are always paid out of the state system likely to be fairly

:08:45.:08:50.

basic though, hopefully, liveable off benefits. I welcome the

:08:51.:08:57.

Chancellor 's statement this week. I'd urge and to look at all the

:08:58.:09:01.

points made this week made by members on all sides. I thank the

:09:02.:09:09.

honourable member from Birkenhead for his initiative at bringing

:09:10.:09:17.

forward this debate. I think that as other members have said, this has

:09:18.:09:21.

been a very measured debate. It is in no small part, I have to say, to

:09:22.:09:28.

the way in which it started. And the contribution by the member for

:09:29.:09:31.

Birkenhead because he did approach this debate from the point of view

:09:32.:09:35.

that he is a problem which is going to affect many of those people in

:09:36.:09:40.

our constituencies who want to improve their lives to go out and

:09:41.:09:46.

work every day, and yet are going to be adversely affected by this

:09:47.:09:53.

proposal. And it deserves the kind of measured response, the thoughtful

:09:54.:10:01.

ideas which came forth from this debate, and he has set the standard

:10:02.:10:04.

which has probably been replicated by other members. Of course, a

:10:05.:10:09.

debate like this can lead to the kind of knock-about that you get in

:10:10.:10:15.

a confrontational parliament such as this. Some of us enjoy that. But I'm

:10:16.:10:21.

not so sure that it actually serves those whose lives are being affected

:10:22.:10:26.

by this proposal. And, given that, I think it is then important how the

:10:27.:10:34.

government responds to this debate. And... The government can real

:10:35.:10:42.

against the constitutional outrage of the House of Lords defying the

:10:43.:10:47.

House of Commons, the unelected house modifying the elected house.

:10:48.:10:56.

And can call for someone to get rid of the turbulent toffs down the

:10:57.:11:01.

corridor and come forward with minimal changes. I think that is a

:11:02.:11:08.

mistake. The second option, of course, is for the Autumn Statement

:11:09.:11:14.

to be used for the government to bring forward proposals which are

:11:15.:11:20.

perhaps minimalist in trying to deal with some of those who are uneasy on

:11:21.:11:25.

the backbenches but still don't address the real problems. Or to

:11:26.:11:31.

have a complete rethink and to involve those who wish to be

:11:32.:11:36.

involved constructively. It has been suggested here today the committees

:11:37.:11:43.

which could be used here, and, of course, the devolved administrations

:11:44.:11:47.

should not be exempt from this. In Northern Ireland, we have done

:11:48.:11:53.

extensive work for the northern island executive on the impact which

:11:54.:11:58.

to these changes are likely to have no wide range of groups. And I think

:11:59.:12:04.

that should feed into the data which the member for Birkenhead referred

:12:05.:12:05.

to in his comments. I think there's good reasons why the

:12:06.:12:16.

government should take a constructive approach. There is a

:12:17.:12:21.

wide spread recognition and as a spokesman for all parties here

:12:22.:12:28.

today, they do except that we cannot go on with a situation where

:12:29.:12:32.

taxpayers subsidise low wages from employers who could afford to pay

:12:33.:12:39.

more. -- spokesmen for all parties. That covers the whole basis of the

:12:40.:12:44.

government's policy, which is to rebalance the economy and there is

:12:45.:12:47.

now recognition that that needs to be done. And there is also a

:12:48.:12:52.

willingness to look at the issues that need to be addressed. Antidotes

:12:53.:12:58.

are the issues that need to be addressed, and the ones I need to

:12:59.:13:04.

highlight. One is a issue of timing. If we are going to make that change,

:13:05.:13:11.

then there has to be an assurance that the safety net, which is

:13:12.:13:15.

currently available to those who are low paid, is not removed until the

:13:16.:13:22.

problem of low wages has been fixed. I think that must be a central

:13:23.:13:26.

premise in any way in which this issue is addressed and... I will

:13:27.:13:35.

give way. Which he agree with me that issues like public sector pay

:13:36.:13:42.

must be looked at, and that it is the bedrock of our society, in terms

:13:43.:13:48.

of the public sector, like school cleaners and assistance in schools,

:13:49.:13:54.

which we all depend upon. And it will be addressed if we deal with

:13:55.:13:58.

the issue in the way I have suggested, like a safety net is not

:13:59.:14:03.

being removed until the issue of wages has been dealt with. And I

:14:04.:14:06.

think that's the first important principle. The second one is that we

:14:07.:14:11.

must be sure that we have identified all of the groups that are likely to

:14:12.:14:16.

be affected during the transition period. And one group which I have

:14:17.:14:22.

mentioned time and time again are those who will not be affected by

:14:23.:14:27.

the National Living Wage. The under 25 's. Many of them will have

:14:28.:14:33.

families, many of them, if we set the pattern at the very beginning of

:14:34.:14:37.

their working lives, if work doesn't pay, they will stay in their

:14:38.:14:43.

pattern. And it is important that that group is addressed and also

:14:44.:14:47.

that the families with children are addressed. And on that point, I

:14:48.:14:51.

would appreciate some answer from the Minister that childcare

:14:52.:14:57.

allowance and the extra childcare funding which is available. That is

:14:58.:15:01.

a devolved issue in Northern Ireland, but will there be a bonnet

:15:02.:15:07.

consequential, so that the same arrangements can be put in place as

:15:08.:15:11.

our suggested by the Chancellor for England and Wales -- attempt to

:15:12.:15:21.

consequential. -- tax credits consequential. There are some places

:15:22.:15:32.

where the market is buoyant. In those sectors and regions, of course

:15:33.:15:36.

an increase in the National Living Wage can be afforded. But there are

:15:37.:15:41.

other sectors and other regions where that may not be the case. And

:15:42.:15:45.

there is no point in simply saying let's treat everywhere, or the South

:15:46.:15:52.

East of England and the IT industry, or the banking industry, and then

:15:53.:15:59.

impose burdens on small businesses, retail sectors, they have all been

:16:00.:16:06.

identified here today. And we need to address the fact there is uneven

:16:07.:16:12.

performance across the economy. I will give way. I think we also have

:16:13.:16:16.

to pay some attention to the larger picture. When we look at the USA,

:16:17.:16:25.

the top 0.1% have as much as the bottom 9%. It goes to the top, where

:16:26.:16:34.

they have 350 times what an average worker can get. I suppose that

:16:35.:16:41.

brings me to the last point, how do you find all of this? It's a

:16:42.:16:45.

reasonable question and the Chancellor and Prime Minister asked

:16:46.:16:52.

it all the time. I'll be going to keep on borrowing? The one thing I

:16:53.:16:57.

do know, and I served as finance minister in Northern Ireland for

:16:58.:17:07.

four or five years, I can't count... Which doesn't help. But I remember

:17:08.:17:12.

in the very first year, the last government took over, the July

:17:13.:17:19.

Autumn Statement 5% was taken off our budget three months into the

:17:20.:17:25.

financial year. But it was still possible to find the changes which

:17:26.:17:29.

are required, because necessity required us to do that. We are

:17:30.:17:35.

talking about two thirds of a percent of the total budget for the

:17:36.:17:39.

UK, which has to be found to find that. If we decided to do nothing

:17:40.:17:49.

and keep on paying the tax credits, two thirds of a percent had to be

:17:50.:17:54.

found across the whole UK budget. No one is going to tell me that, with

:17:55.:18:02.

planning, that is not possible to do . The have been suggestions put

:18:03.:18:08.

forward. Different people have different political priorities as to

:18:09.:18:12.

where those cuts should can. But I believe it is doable, if there is

:18:13.:18:18.

the will. My fear is this, that the government can make, because it is

:18:19.:18:22.

cocky at the moment, the opposition is not in the best shape that it

:18:23.:18:26.

should be in. I'm not going to start making point about it. They're not

:18:27.:18:31.

in the best shape they should be. And the temptation will be to use

:18:32.:18:40.

the disarray to try and force things through. And we have heard it time

:18:41.:18:45.

and time again. We have got a majority for this in the House of

:18:46.:18:48.

Commons. That doesn't matter. The question is, will it be perceived as

:18:49.:18:53.

fair? If it is perceived as fair, then it will not have support across

:18:54.:18:59.

the country. That's regardless of what happens here. And my fear is

:19:00.:19:05.

this, that in doing so, the government, which of course is the

:19:06.:19:09.

Labour Party time and time again that they are unelectable, may well

:19:10.:19:14.

annoy people so much, and anger people so much, that the unelectable

:19:15.:19:20.

becomes electable. If people can judge whether that is a good thing

:19:21.:19:25.

or a bad thing. If the process of making that happen means that those

:19:26.:19:30.

who are these drivers in society, the low paid workers suffer, I don't

:19:31.:19:34.

believe that is a price worth paying. -- those who strive in

:19:35.:19:43.

society. Thank you. And the member was right when he was talking about

:19:44.:19:48.

that rush to get involved with a policy. And I think it is a real

:19:49.:19:54.

pleasure to be in the chamber today for that rarest of treat, where we

:19:55.:20:00.

are all furiously agreeing on the right thing to do, which is to make

:20:01.:20:07.

a radical change to this approach. And, on that bus that people have

:20:08.:20:10.

been on, it's like we are seeing that awakening of people, they have

:20:11.:20:18.

been slumbering at the back to find the driver is going to be driving

:20:19.:20:22.

them into a lorry. And I welcome it. The tone and contribution today

:20:23.:20:27.

has been terrific. And I think it's worth repeating, because it is such

:20:28.:20:31.

a rare thing to get in this environment. And I was cynical

:20:32.:20:36.

before I got here, and I think it's great that I am here today to be in

:20:37.:20:42.

this debate. So let's just talk about the basics, because a lot has

:20:43.:20:47.

been said today. All of it makes sense. All of us knows there has to

:20:48.:20:50.

be a change. The current policy means that more family will be

:20:51.:20:55.

driven below the poverty line. That there will be more children in

:20:56.:21:03.

poverty. That there is a clear dawn that minimum wage, members opposite

:21:04.:21:09.

that are calling the minimum wage, which it isn't, is not going to

:21:10.:21:12.

bridge the gap. It isn't going to bridge the gap that is going to be

:21:13.:21:18.

created by the people under the age of 25, who won't have the comfort of

:21:19.:21:24.

getting that even diminished living wage or minimum wage that is coming

:21:25.:21:28.

and, because it won't apply to them. And remember, who is not in his

:21:29.:21:35.

place at the moment, talks about the minimum wage cutting crime. -- the

:21:36.:21:41.

member. My friends talked about the effect of changing people's

:21:42.:21:45.

circumstance. If you create a bigger division, with earnings between

:21:46.:21:53.

people, you may find there is a problem. I don't believe that the

:21:54.:21:59.

outcomes that will be created by this policy have been taken into

:22:00.:22:04.

account by certain members in this house. The O N S have provided the

:22:05.:22:10.

Scottish Government with figures that see the 250,000 people are

:22:11.:22:19.

going to lose ?1500 a year, right away. And that rises to ?3000 when

:22:20.:22:29.

these measures are fully implemented. The Centre for Social

:22:30.:22:36.

Justice says household debt is at ?34 billion. That's a devastating

:22:37.:22:41.

cocktail of an outcome that is a possibility for us here if we do not

:22:42.:22:48.

make a change here to the policy. These things, when you put families

:22:49.:22:52.

under pressure, these things actually have a devastating effect,

:22:53.:22:56.

overwhelming stress affecting mental health, affecting work performance.

:22:57.:23:07.

There is an effect on productivity. And a strain on personal

:23:08.:23:10.

relationships. If you want to see more children going into care, this

:23:11.:23:15.

is a measure that could provide some of the stepping stones for that.

:23:16.:23:19.

When the effects of this bite, and we have been talking about when

:23:20.:23:24.

these effects are hit people, that is when we will see what is going to

:23:25.:23:32.

happen. None of us will have to stare into an empty cupboard. None

:23:33.:23:37.

of us will sit in the cold in our own homes, because we do. None of

:23:38.:23:42.

us, as a result, will lick at a pile of bills afraid to open them. --

:23:43.:23:50.

look at a pile. In my constituency, we have a unique problem of having a

:23:51.:23:55.

low-wage, low unemployment community. I say it's unique, but

:23:56.:24:00.

it's not, but it is a particular problem in our community. 7000 100

:24:01.:24:06.

children are going to be pushed further into poverty. -- 7100

:24:07.:24:13.

children. Coupled with the increased cost of living, will post 210,000

:24:14.:24:20.

children into care. We have had a drain of young people over the

:24:21.:24:24.

decades. We have encouraged people to stay and have larger families,

:24:25.:24:31.

and the two children cap is going to punish Highland families. And that

:24:32.:24:35.

will affect other constituencies in exactly the same way. So a big

:24:36.:24:42.

family tradition is being attacked. And China was mentioned earlier.

:24:43.:24:49.

This is an effect almost going into population control. The limits to

:24:50.:24:53.

two children are going to cost ?7.2 million. And the taper increase,

:24:54.:25:03.

?7.7 billion. We heard from my honourable friend earlier on a range

:25:04.:25:08.

of different measures to take to look at putting money back into the

:25:09.:25:13.

system. It doesn't all have to come from the welfare budget. That is an

:25:14.:25:17.

ideological approach. What we can do is make sure that we are not wasting

:25:18.:25:27.

money where you don't have too. The obscenity of looking seriously at

:25:28.:25:33.

spending ?167 billion on weapons of mass destruction that you can never

:25:34.:25:37.

use, because, if you do, it's mutually assured destruction, it is

:25:38.:25:42.

literally mad to consider it and you don't have the control... I will

:25:43.:25:48.

give way. Thank you. He hits an interesting point on the waste of

:25:49.:25:52.

money there is on the weapons of mass destruction programme. It never

:25:53.:26:02.

ending with the patriotism, but we are looking at a time when Britons

:26:03.:26:08.

cannot live greatly. Some will be in terrible poverty. It will affect the

:26:09.:26:18.

poor of the country as well. I couldn't agree more. When we look at

:26:19.:26:22.

the choices, the choices that we are asked to make in this place, and it

:26:23.:26:26.

was mentioned earlier, these choices are made now we decide to do this or

:26:27.:26:32.

that, is the effective on people further the line and that kind of

:26:33.:26:37.

excess, that kind of nonsense, when you actually are talking about

:26:38.:26:40.

people looking into empty cupboards, sitting in the cold, is just an

:26:41.:26:51.

obscenity. And I am grateful to the motion in the House of Lords the

:26:52.:26:55.

other night that change the course of things to allow us to have this

:26:56.:27:01.

debate, it only delays thinks, but I am grateful for it. But if we want

:27:02.:27:08.

to make savings, that could actually make a difference and we want to

:27:09.:27:12.

have a better system of democracy in this country, then that other place

:27:13.:27:16.

should and must go. You should not be inflated -- should not have an

:27:17.:27:23.

inflated other place, with people claiming ?300 a day, when other

:27:24.:27:26.

people are having their benefits cut. I will give way.

:27:27.:27:33.

What see as surprised as I was to see some of those perhaps signs of

:27:34.:27:44.

socialism? Seven Labour peers voted with the Tories for these obscene

:27:45.:27:52.

welfare measures. It is an incredible thing to note. It is

:27:53.:27:58.

worth repeating in this house today. I think there are lots of measures,

:27:59.:28:03.

there are lots of measures the UK government could take. They don't

:28:04.:28:08.

have to continue down an ideological path to actually look at how do you

:28:09.:28:14.

make sure we are taking money from the people that can least afford it

:28:15.:28:19.

in order to make sure other people are able to enjoy more of the finery

:28:20.:28:24.

they've had. We mustn't do that. The words that have been spoken today

:28:25.:28:30.

have been worth listening to. And I hope that the UK government will

:28:31.:28:33.

take this away, that the minister today will take these thoughts he is

:28:34.:28:41.

heard behind his head and in the chamber today into account and

:28:42.:28:43.

persuade the Chancellor to come back with something that is radically

:28:44.:28:48.

different, and supports people. Supports people in our

:28:49.:28:51.

constituencies, people who will be badly affected if this isn't changed

:28:52.:29:03.

dramatically. I'd like to thank the honourable member for Birkenhead to

:29:04.:29:06.

thank the honourable member for Birkenhead visit during this very

:29:07.:29:09.

important debate. When I voiced my opposition to cuts to tax credits

:29:10.:29:12.

back in July, I spoke of how the cuts would hit the poorest hardest.

:29:13.:29:21.

I spoke of how in my constituency of Edmonton, 72% of people receive tax

:29:22.:29:27.

credits. Over 42% of children live in relative poverty. So, you can

:29:28.:29:31.

well imagine how worried I am for those constituents who, I am sure,

:29:32.:29:38.

are watching now. The latest analysis from the Resolution

:29:39.:29:43.

Foundation projects that over 200,000 more children will be in

:29:44.:29:55.

poverty by 2016 if these unbelievable role... I can't even

:29:56.:30:00.

get the word is out because I'm so upset about this. It is going to

:30:01.:30:05.

affect people that I represent. The government has done nothing to

:30:06.:30:08.

assess the impact on cuts and how it is going to affect children. Indeed,

:30:09.:30:15.

the changing definition of child poverty in the Welfare Reform and

:30:16.:30:18.

Work Bill totally fails to capture the true extent of child poverty. To

:30:19.:30:23.

be clear, two thirds of children in poverty live in households where

:30:24.:30:30.

women and men actually go to work. The situation for Edmonton, ranked

:30:31.:30:45.

the six constituency with the third highest child poverty. It'll be felt

:30:46.:30:51.

across the country. The IFA 's has shown that nearly 3.2 million

:30:52.:30:57.

working families on benefits or tax credits only stand to gain an

:30:58.:31:02.

average of ?200 from this so-called national living wage. Whereas they

:31:03.:31:09.

stand to lose over ?750 per year because of benefits and the tax

:31:10.:31:16.

credit cuts. Also, this personal tax allowance does nothing to address

:31:17.:31:21.

the low paid, and won't help those earning below ?10,000. The value of

:31:22.:31:30.

free childcare and to tax credit recipients is also very limited. And

:31:31.:31:35.

hasn't been thought out. Because the reason I say it hasn't been thought

:31:36.:31:39.

out is because I've had words with the National Association of head

:31:40.:31:43.

teachers, and they've said, after speaking with their members, that

:31:44.:31:47.

they are worried about the intake, and will they be able to expand to

:31:48.:31:52.

take more children. So this needs to be thought out as well. So, to paint

:31:53.:31:58.

these reforms as a valid replacement rather than a necessary

:31:59.:32:01.

accompaniment to tax credits is quite untrue. The government has

:32:02.:32:08.

broken its election promise, and is basically betraying the very people

:32:09.:32:13.

it claims to represent. What I am calling for is the government to

:32:14.:32:18.

reverse the cuts to tax credits. The evidence is against them. We've

:32:19.:32:21.

heard it from all sides of the chamber. It is plain to see that it

:32:22.:32:29.

isn't going to work. It isn't going to work because so many people are

:32:30.:32:33.

going to be living in poverty. And I am sure this isn't what this

:32:34.:32:38.

government is here for. If it is, it needs to think again. We also need

:32:39.:32:43.

to think about our constituencies, and think about the surgeries we all

:32:44.:32:49.

sit in and listen. Listen hard to those people who come and tell you

:32:50.:32:52.

how worried they are, and how they don't know how they are going to

:32:53.:32:56.

survive, and how they're going to look after their children. We saw a

:32:57.:33:03.

woman in Question Time crying that she'd voted for a party and that

:33:04.:33:07.

you'd let her down. It's time to stand with the people you represent.

:33:08.:33:11.

I'm going to end by saying pushing ahead with these planned disgraceful

:33:12.:33:22.

plans... Let me put it straight to you, if you try to do this and put

:33:23.:33:25.

them forward, you're only going to show those people that want to go

:33:26.:33:30.

out and work that it doesn't pay to go out and work. And I think you

:33:31.:33:35.

need to look and think deeply about the decision to take these cuts

:33:36.:33:45.

forward. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker, I'd like to thank the

:33:46.:33:49.

honourable member from Birkenhead for securing this debate today. I'd

:33:50.:33:56.

like to also like to applaud the other place for what they did the

:33:57.:34:00.

other night. I'm not in favour of an unelected chamber, which means mean

:34:01.:34:07.

need a second chamber but unelected chamber. I've said before that my

:34:08.:34:14.

constituency suffers the seventh highest employment poverty. And the

:34:15.:34:19.

11th highest income poverty. I have 5800 families would 8800 living in

:34:20.:34:27.

poverty and at work. The school where I am a governor, there are 400

:34:28.:34:31.

children who take free breakfast in the morning. They take it because

:34:32.:34:41.

they need to. We chose to do that because our children couldn't learn

:34:42.:34:44.

because they were hungry. That is why we did it. They couldn't

:34:45.:34:47.

concentrate to learn, which is why we did it. It makes my blood boil,

:34:48.:34:55.

Mr Deputy Speaker, when I heard today a member from the opposition

:34:56.:34:58.

benches talk about people choosing to be part time zero our contract on

:34:59.:35:07.

16 hours or something like that, and other people said they should get

:35:08.:35:15.

another job to get going. I have to represent hard-working people. There

:35:16.:35:19.

are families, men, that went into the bowels of the earth to get

:35:20.:35:22.

called to make the industry work, and many of those men are still of

:35:23.:35:27.

employment age. Many of them on zero our contract. They know what hard

:35:28.:35:32.

work is, and they don't mind it. They miss the, Rhodri of those

:35:33.:35:37.

colleagues, but they look to work hard and earn their money. Many of

:35:38.:35:40.

them worked in class furnaces. I want to tell a tale about a glass

:35:41.:35:47.

furnace. It closed two years ago, the last one where I worked. 120 men

:35:48.:35:56.

lost their jobs, and they were secured employment with the help of

:35:57.:36:00.

their employer, a very large multinational car manufacturer. In a

:36:01.:36:05.

neighbouring constituency. They got employment because they were skilled

:36:06.:36:09.

workers, hard workers, that could use technology, drive vehicles in

:36:10.:36:17.

the factory, and they were told ?10 an hour, not the rate the other

:36:18.:36:21.

workers were on. They worked for 12 months, and then you'll get a

:36:22.:36:25.

permanent contract with this employer on their rate of pay. Just

:36:26.:36:30.

weeks before that 12 months arose, they came home from work, hundred

:36:31.:36:40.

and 20 of them, and on the Friday, on the Saturday they received calls

:36:41.:36:43.

they weren't needed on the Monday. That was after just tend and a half

:36:44.:36:51.

-- ten and a half months of employment. A few of them got calls

:36:52.:36:55.

after a weeks. There was extra work and they could give them work until

:36:56.:37:01.

this Christmas. And they went back. They hadn't been able to find other

:37:02.:37:06.

work. They went back to those jobs. They got three weeks. Within the

:37:07.:37:11.

week 's previous to that, many of them were in rented accommodation.

:37:12.:37:16.

They'd phoned every week to the housing association explaining their

:37:17.:37:19.

benefits hadn't changed. That he benefits hadn't come through. One

:37:20.:37:23.

thing I'd say is that universal credit will make it simpler because

:37:24.:37:27.

they were waiting for housing benefit, council tax assistance,

:37:28.:37:33.

child tax credit, and working tax credits. Each one comes through

:37:34.:37:36.

separately. They hadn't been able to pay the rent. They rang the housing

:37:37.:37:41.

association, and then one woman rang me literally in tears. Had to go

:37:42.:37:47.

around. She had got a notice of possession. We sorted that one out,

:37:48.:37:54.

and we sorted another few out, and we secured some mechanism that that

:37:55.:37:59.

won't happen, that she would ring the number regularly if it happened.

:38:00.:38:02.

When they were offered these jobs back to Christmas, they lasted three

:38:03.:38:10.

weeks. So back they go again to applying for all these tax credits.

:38:11.:38:14.

These are not people who choose to work on zero our contract or agency

:38:15.:38:23.

work. One of the chaps, the woman's husband, he got a call a few weeks

:38:24.:38:28.

ago that you've got a job with an agency. He says, you can't get a job

:38:29.:38:35.

without an agency. He'd got a call that he'd got a job. He was made up.

:38:36.:38:41.

He got a call 30 minutes later that he had to work two weeks free

:38:42.:38:47.

without pay, and then he would be guaranteed an interview for a job.

:38:48.:38:51.

Thank goodness his wife wouldn't let him go. Modern day slave. That same

:38:52.:39:00.

gentleman has two weeks work with pain now and has gone off to do it.

:39:01.:39:07.

Mr Deputy Speaker, what I would ask the Chancellor is to give due

:39:08.:39:13.

consideration to the 700,000, three quarters of a million people, on

:39:14.:39:17.

zero our contracts, and to the hundreds of thousands of people in

:39:18.:39:23.

agency work. Something simply must happen. These agency workers are

:39:24.:39:30.

exploiting unemployed people. It is modern day slavery what is going on

:39:31.:39:35.

in this country. Implement has risen, yes, it has, but I wonder how

:39:36.:39:41.

many members in this chamber realise that one-hour's work in a month

:39:42.:39:45.

counts as being in employment. I couldn't believe it, but it is true.

:39:46.:39:53.

There has been 400,000 increases in the number of people claiming

:39:54.:40:01.

housing benefits. That is despite the bedroom tax and the cap. Why is

:40:02.:40:10.

that? It is because wages are going down, not up. We have 4,300,000

:40:11.:40:20.

earning less than the living wage. There is a national shortage of

:40:21.:40:24.

heavy goods vehicle drivers. Can anyone get training? Many of these

:40:25.:40:29.

men have asked for it. I've told them there is a national shortage.

:40:30.:40:33.

They asked at the unemployment exchange can they be trained? No.

:40:34.:40:40.

What they did do was they send some way to get retrained or get up

:40:41.:40:47.

skilled on stacker truck drivers. They were sanctioned whilst on that

:40:48.:40:50.

course because they didn't turn up somewhere. This is the same people

:40:51.:40:53.

who set up the training sanctioned them for not turning up. So, Mr

:40:54.:41:00.

Deputy Speaker, my question is that the Chancellor doesn't play games

:41:01.:41:04.

with this mitigation, and that he puts a stop on this tax credit

:41:05.:41:15.

change, puts a stop, listens to the many excellent contributions given

:41:16.:41:20.

today, and to please, please give consideration to how we can protect

:41:21.:41:24.

those hard-working people who want to work, who are being punished on

:41:25.:41:30.

zero our contracts, and through being agency workers. That is my ask

:41:31.:41:34.

of the Chancellor, Mr Deputy Speaker. Thank you.

:41:35.:41:46.

I am delighted we have the opportunity to hold the government

:41:47.:41:51.

to account. I would like to thank all the speakers who have argued

:41:52.:41:56.

that they must change course and I pay tribute to those on the

:41:57.:42:04.

government wenches who have said wise words. -- government benches.

:42:05.:42:11.

Why are we here again discussing tax credits? The government has got

:42:12.:42:14.

itself into a mess and it needs to find a way out of it. These

:42:15.:42:21.

proposals, which have now been passed through the statutory

:42:22.:42:23.

instrument and passed through the other place, are not right. --

:42:24.:42:38.

rejected in the other place. There is no economic or moral or ethical

:42:39.:42:45.

rationale as to why we need to rip 4.3 billion out of the programme.

:42:46.:42:50.

Let's look at what the impact will do. And perhaps we can start with a

:42:51.:42:57.

quote from the Adam Smith Institute, much loved by the government benches

:42:58.:43:03.

in the past. "Working tax credits are the best form of welfare we have

:43:04.:43:08.

and cutting them would be a huge mistake. The government has long

:43:09.:43:13.

claimed to want to make work pay for everyone, but cutting tax credits

:43:14.:43:17.

would this incentivise work and hurt those at the bottom of society." The

:43:18.:43:27.

average negative impact amounts to ?1300 in 2016 and 2017, and impact

:43:28.:43:35.

of around ?25 a week on family budgets. There was a line in the

:43:36.:43:39.

period of Margaret Thatcher's government that if it wasn't

:43:40.:43:43.

hurting, it wasn't working. Well, this is going to hurt and hurt

:43:44.:43:46.

millions of families throughout the country. Is that what we want to

:43:47.:43:54.

do? Is this right? Is it fair? Let's have a real debate about improving

:43:55.:43:57.

living standards, but also recognition that we have to reverse

:43:58.:44:03.

the growing inequality in the UK. Driving sustainable economic growth

:44:04.:44:12.

on a fairer society negates the need for tax credits cuts. I thank him

:44:13.:44:17.

for giving way and he makes a very persuasive case that he is

:44:18.:44:20.

absolutely right that this will negatively impact some of the

:44:21.:44:24.

poorest families. Does he agree with me that this will also

:44:25.:44:30.

disproportionately affect the B and E communities? I thank him for his

:44:31.:44:34.

intervention and he often speaks up for those in the BME communities. It

:44:35.:44:47.

is those who will feel the impact. And others in the land. This must be

:44:48.:44:53.

stopped, regardless of where they come from. We keep hearing that we

:44:54.:45:03.

cannot afford this. Is the reverse is true. We cannot keep doing this

:45:04.:45:09.

to families. We all want to reduce the deficit and national debt. We

:45:10.:45:16.

need to drive economic growth to improve our financial position. You

:45:17.:45:21.

don't do that by taking 4.4 billion out of the economy. It's the failure

:45:22.:45:25.

to deliver growth, that constrains our ability to reduce the debt. If

:45:26.:45:39.

the government 's policy had worked, the Bank of England would not be

:45:40.:45:41.

intervening in the way it had, so-called quantitative easing. When

:45:42.:45:48.

we talk about our debt crisis and the need to reduce spending, we seem

:45:49.:45:55.

to airbrush away that we owed 370 billion to ourselves. Debt created

:45:56.:46:02.

by ourselves. We on these benches understand that quantitative easing

:46:03.:46:08.

was necessary. Can I add that the financial markets have benefited

:46:09.:46:16.

massively from this. The FTSE 100 index was -- is at 370. The Bank of

:46:17.:46:27.

England have acknowledged that those with financial assets have benefited

:46:28.:46:31.

enormously from the quantitative easing programme over the last six

:46:32.:46:36.

years. And if you look at the benefits, 40% have gone to the top

:46:37.:46:45.

5% of our society. Don't talk to us about all of us being in this

:46:46.:46:51.

together. This is important as if I am being charitable, the outcome of

:46:52.:46:56.

policy has been to enhance the quality and we are here today being

:46:57.:47:00.

told that the poor, and the working poor, must pay the price in a desire

:47:01.:47:05.

to balance the books. It is unfair and wrong. Yesterday at Prime

:47:06.:47:13.

Minister's Questions, the Prime Minister said that printing money

:47:14.:47:17.

and putting up taxes, it is working people like Karen that are paying

:47:18.:47:22.

the price. Perhaps I should point out to him that it is his government

:47:23.:47:26.

with quantative easing that have been printing money and that tax

:47:27.:47:33.

credits cuts are a reality -- in reality an increase for Karen. Those

:47:34.:47:41.

who have benefited from quantative easing programmes, are now getting

:47:42.:47:48.

an additional bonus through the changes to inheritance tax. Where is

:47:49.:47:53.

the social justice and social cohesion from what we should be

:47:54.:48:00.

striding to deliver? In the spirit of cooperation, let me help the

:48:01.:48:11.

government. Well done. As he says. A report of the House of Commons

:48:12.:48:16.

committee of Public accounts yesterday said that high levels of

:48:17.:48:22.

benefit and tax cuts fraud remain unacceptable. They cost every

:48:23.:48:28.

household around ?200 a year and most money that government could

:48:29.:48:33.

spend on other things. Since 2010, both departments, talking about two

:48:34.:48:43.

different ones have made progress, particularly Hatem RC. However, the

:48:44.:48:53.

WP and hate RC still owed claimants by 4.6 billion because of fraud and

:48:54.:49:06.

error. -- DWO and HMRC. It's just goes to show that if they weren't

:49:07.:49:14.

making errors in overpayments, this could be used to protect low income

:49:15.:49:21.

families. -- DWP and HMRC. Let me say to them, cut out the mistakes

:49:22.:49:30.

and you have achieved the savings, don't go after the poor. Eliminate

:49:31.:49:35.

fraud and mistakes and it's job done. The economic policies of the

:49:36.:49:42.

government have created inequality and the result is that the poor are

:49:43.:49:47.

having to pay again. Before Christmas, and letters will be

:49:48.:49:50.

delivered to our constituents, who receive tax credits informing them

:49:51.:49:56.

of the cuts that they will receive next April. As my honourable friend

:49:57.:50:03.

says, "happy Christmas from Ebenezer Osborne." They will come to other

:50:04.:50:11.

surgeries in despair as to how they are to make ends meet. Let me turn

:50:12.:50:19.

to the proposals that have come from the Honourable member for

:50:20.:50:23.

Birkenhead. I commend them from seeking a way out of the

:50:24.:50:25.

difficulties that government is facing. The plan would involve

:50:26.:50:33.

introducing a secondary earnings threshold. That would be paid for by

:50:34.:50:38.

a steeper withdrawal rate for those earning above the new minimum rate.

:50:39.:50:44.

But I say to him that we do not agree that those earning less than

:50:45.:50:50.

13,000 should be protected, all of those who receive tax credits should

:50:51.:50:56.

be protected. It is admirable but those earning modest amounts will be

:50:57.:50:59.

protected, but those of modest means are still going to be hit. Take the

:51:00.:51:05.

example of a family with two children and gross earnings of

:51:06.:51:12.

?20,000, who was still lose over ?1000. This is not acceptable. The

:51:13.:51:22.

tax credits should be -- tax credits cuts should be stopped. It should be

:51:23.:51:29.

reversed in full. You are aware that I am new on this is the second time

:51:30.:51:33.

I have been let loose at the dispatch box this week. I had the

:51:34.:51:38.

pleasure of facing the member for South West Hertfordshire and today I

:51:39.:51:42.

am facing the member for East Hampshire for what I hope will be

:51:43.:51:47.

the first of many lively debates. I would like to thank the backbench

:51:48.:51:51.

business committee, the Birkenhead and member and the other members who

:51:52.:51:55.

have secured this very important debate. I would like to place on

:51:56.:52:01.

record my thanks to the eye of S and the resolution foundation and other

:52:02.:52:04.

groups for their work on today's issue. -- IFS. We have heard many

:52:05.:52:16.

issues today. The Birkenhead member stated his case very eloquently,

:52:17.:52:20.

saying that these reforms next April will not be acceptable and the

:52:21.:52:26.

government must carry out due diligence reports on this. I also

:52:27.:52:35.

commend the member in making his comments today in that he realised

:52:36.:52:44.

his previous no cost report on -- reform suggestions will create a

:52:45.:52:48.

higher penalty. This is the beauty, we will change our man -- our minds.

:52:49.:53:00.

I emphasised that I put forward one idea to begin initiating debates. I

:53:01.:53:05.

put three others today and I hope they are not going to use that as a

:53:06.:53:09.

cop out for not giving a very clear message to the government on the

:53:10.:53:15.

very point she has just made. I thank him for his intervention. I

:53:16.:53:21.

also highlight the comments that the member made earlier, stating that

:53:22.:53:26.

the people we should be saluting and CHEERING are sick with worry at the

:53:27.:53:31.

moment. Countless members of an opposite members -- opposite members

:53:32.:53:41.

condemned this. We heard the member for Stevenage saying he didn't feel

:53:42.:53:45.

he could support this, because he had frightened families coming to

:53:46.:53:49.

his surgeries. We heard from another who said we needed to look at this

:53:50.:53:53.

does not penalised the very poorest does not penalised the very poorest

:53:54.:53:58.

in society. Then we heard from another who said that everything he

:53:59.:54:02.

believes in as a conservative is to get people into work, but there's a

:54:03.:54:07.

real risk that these proposals will do the opposite. Then we heard from

:54:08.:54:14.

another who said this policy was a mistake and highlighted the absence

:54:15.:54:18.

of a proper impact statement. Then we had a change from this kind of

:54:19.:54:25.

dialogue from another member. He was one of the members who applauded the

:54:26.:54:29.

Chancellor and championed some of the measures that the government

:54:30.:54:34.

would use to offset the tax credit losses. We heard from the member for

:54:35.:54:39.

Colchester who supported the call for mitigation, the member for

:54:40.:54:43.

Twickenham who supported high wage claims, but that the members at the

:54:44.:54:50.

end should be protected. -- people at the end. And then, the member for

:54:51.:54:56.

Harrow East who supported an amendment of the proposals. Another

:54:57.:55:03.

said they needed to reconsider the pace of change. We heard from a

:55:04.:55:12.

member who said a review was needed and transitional support was needed.

:55:13.:55:17.

The member for Torbay supported the motion because his family was rich

:55:18.:55:21.

in love growing up but poor in money and he realise the effect the

:55:22.:55:25.

proposals may have an aspiration in the long term. Then we heard from

:55:26.:55:33.

the member for Stafford, who cited JFK, saying if we see everything in

:55:34.:55:38.

terms of income, we are a pro rata society. He made some very

:55:39.:55:47.

refreshing comments. -- a poorer society. From this side, we heard

:55:48.:55:54.

from the Darlington member, saying the fear is out there already and

:55:55.:56:00.

the government must act quickly. Then another said the distribution

:56:01.:56:07.

will impact were aggressive. Then another member said his mailbag was

:56:08.:56:12.

full of letters from people who were terrified of what was to come. And

:56:13.:56:18.

another said we need to build an economy where families don't need to

:56:19.:56:23.

rely on tax credits, but it is a mistake to take from them before

:56:24.:56:29.

their wages have risen. The member for Ealing Central and Acton said

:56:30.:56:32.

the Chancellor could still change his mind and we would welcome that

:56:33.:56:35.

on this site and the member for Lewisham and Deptford said the risk

:56:36.:56:41.

is to struggling families and they may fall into debts. -- on this

:56:42.:56:48.

site. We also heard from the member for Nottingham, and I had to say I

:56:49.:56:56.

share his sentiments, said that the debate was lovely and is a

:56:57.:56:59.

collective of all the sensible people and the government should

:57:00.:57:02.

maybe have done it this way in the first place.

:57:03.:57:10.

Then the member for Saint Helen 's south and west and who outlined

:57:11.:57:15.

quite worryingly that her constituency was the seventh highest

:57:16.:57:20.

in terms of unemployment poverty. Then we also heard from the

:57:21.:57:24.

honourable members who confirmed that we can do much better than

:57:25.:57:30.

this. Then another honourable member who highlighted the disincentive

:57:31.:57:33.

biasing effect and the impact of under 25s. And the member who asked

:57:34.:57:41.

to revisit the government's tax avoidance policies. And the worry

:57:42.:57:47.

that the local economy might be affected by tax credits because

:57:48.:57:58.

those on low pay our more likely to holiday in Dumfries Galloway, his

:57:59.:58:04.

constituency. Another member highlighted household debt issues

:58:05.:58:07.

and potential to exacerbate a serious problem. And the member who

:58:08.:58:14.

said we need to drive a sustainable economic growth and you don't do

:58:15.:58:18.

that by taking 4.5 billion out of the economy. Now, the motion before

:58:19.:58:24.

the house today is timely in light of the events which occurred in the

:58:25.:58:28.

other place this week and I make clear that we support the position

:58:29.:58:32.

of our noble friends that these proposals shouldn't go ahead.

:58:33.:58:36.

Certainly until there has been a proper consultation, a government

:58:37.:58:39.

response to the distributional analysis conducted by the Institute

:58:40.:58:45.

for Fiscal Studies, mitigation reform and withdrawal if

:58:46.:58:48.

appropriate. From the names on the motion and the contributions we've

:58:49.:58:50.

heard across the chamber today, it is widespread pressure which spans

:58:51.:58:56.

all parties. For the government to firstly carry out and publish a

:58:57.:59:02.

detailed impact assessment of the impact of cuts to tax credit and

:59:03.:59:06.

then to detail proposals which will ensure that no family is worse off.

:59:07.:59:10.

We are clear on the side of the house that is the government commits

:59:11.:59:14.

to ensuring that no family will be worse off as a result of amended

:59:15.:59:18.

proposals, we will put the interests of those families above party

:59:19.:59:23.

political considerations, and we won't attack the government for

:59:24.:59:26.

doing so. Quite frankly, I cannot think of any recent occasion when

:59:27.:59:31.

any opposition has made such an offer, so I would call upon the

:59:32.:59:34.

Minister to truly listen to the contributions today. This house is

:59:35.:59:39.

at its best when we use the power of debate to convince other members to

:59:40.:59:43.

believe on the merits of a particular argument regardless of

:59:44.:59:46.

our ideologies. On rare occasion such as today, we do actually reach

:59:47.:59:50.

a consensus in this house over certain issues. I hope the Minister

:59:51.:59:55.

and members present will agree that the government's Liz Young tax

:59:56.:59:59.

credits links to be reviewed and changed. To anticipate what he might

:00:00.:00:04.

say in response, the Minister and myself agree on one point. It is

:00:05.:00:10.

necessary to reduce the deficit over the economic cycle. Where we

:00:11.:00:14.

disagree, however, is the economic strategy used to achieve this. And I

:00:15.:00:18.

don't believe that the government's plans achieve that goal either

:00:19.:00:24.

fairly or effectively. In fact, over the long-term, the savage cut would

:00:25.:00:32.

achieve quite the opposite. As we have been reminded, the prime

:00:33.:00:37.

minister denied any need or and to cut tax credits during the election.

:00:38.:00:40.

The Minister must understand therefore that members of the

:00:41.:00:44.

public, especially those that voted Conservative, are quite rightly very

:00:45.:00:49.

angry. Cuts to tax credits would mean that more than 3 million

:00:50.:00:54.

families would be on average ?1300 worse off next year. Some working

:00:55.:00:58.

families will be losing nearly ?3500 a year. ?2.5 billion has been found

:00:59.:01:07.

for an inheritance tax cuts benefiting the wealthiest 4% of

:01:08.:01:11.

people in this country yet, at the same time, ?4.5 billion is being

:01:12.:01:17.

taken out of the pockets of low and middle income families. The

:01:18.:01:22.

Treasury's and analysis and that of the Resolution Foundation shows that

:01:23.:01:26.

cuts to tax credits based on the current proposals would put another

:01:27.:01:31.

200,000 children into poverty. Already half a million more children

:01:32.:01:36.

are in poverty today than in 2010. We are told by the government that

:01:37.:01:40.

cuts to tax credits would be compensated by the so-called living

:01:41.:01:45.

wage. Let me be clear on this - they will not. In fact, the Institute for

:01:46.:01:49.

Fiscal Studies made it quite clear that the increase in the minimum

:01:50.:01:52.

wage cannot provide full compensation for the majority of

:01:53.:01:56.

losses that will be experienced. It'll just be arithmetically

:01:57.:02:01.

impossible. We are grateful for their analysis because the

:02:02.:02:05.

government has refused to publish an adequate version of their own. And

:02:06.:02:08.

the research shows further that because of the different profile and

:02:09.:02:13.

scale of families and individuals on the minimum wage versus those in

:02:14.:02:16.

receipt of tax credits, an increase in the minimum wage, although

:02:17.:02:20.

welcome, went to mitigate the effects of these cuts and the

:02:21.:02:23.

average family will still be significantly worse off. And, of

:02:24.:02:28.

course, the rise in the minimum wage was accompanied by ?4 billion worth

:02:29.:02:31.

of giveaways in cuts to corporation tax. We are also told that the

:02:32.:02:37.

government will compensate for losses to income by providing 30

:02:38.:02:40.

hours free childcare for three and four-year-olds. In my own

:02:41.:02:46.

constituency of Salford and Eccles, our Labour council already provides

:02:47.:02:50.

25 hours of free childcare but demand outstrips supply. The

:02:51.:02:53.

preschool learning Alliance has warned that councils are paying

:02:54.:02:59.

childcare providers insufficient hourly rates to provide the existing

:03:00.:03:03.

hours of free childcare and going up to 30 would push many providers to

:03:04.:03:08.

breaking point. If the minister intends to site childcare as the

:03:09.:03:11.

answer to tax credit cuts, perhaps he can confirm the 30 hours scheme

:03:12.:03:15.

will be properly funded and won't push providers to the limit. In

:03:16.:03:21.

conclusion, in my constituency over 61% of families are receiving tax

:03:22.:03:25.

credits. They are not the so-called scroungers we hear about. They are

:03:26.:03:40.

men and women working hard trying to build a future for themselves and

:03:41.:03:43.

children. They are trying to live their children out of poverty and

:03:44.:03:45.

provide them with the nourishment and financial support they need. So

:03:46.:03:47.

maybe, just maybe, they won't have to suffer the same hardship their

:03:48.:03:50.

parents team. There is no equivalent British dream. They work hard and

:03:51.:03:52.

get nowhere. Low-paid and skilled work is the order of the day for

:03:53.:03:55.

many. For some, it's a case of trying to build up a business to be

:03:56.:03:59.

proud of. For some, they juggle work with the responsibility of caring

:04:00.:04:03.

for loved ones. The government's claims tax credit cuts won't cause

:04:04.:04:07.

any family to be worse off do not stand up to scrutiny. These families

:04:08.:04:12.

deserve a future and, as such, we will support this motion. I'm

:04:13.:04:20.

grateful as ever to have the opportunity to respond to this

:04:21.:04:22.

debate on behalf of the government and I must start by thanking most

:04:23.:04:26.

sincerely the chairman of the select committee, the Right Honourable

:04:27.:04:32.

gentlemen, the member for Birkenhead, his expertise and

:04:33.:04:35.

commitment are well-known and respected. I I look forward to many

:04:36.:04:43.

opportunities to debate over these dispatch boxes with the member for

:04:44.:04:52.

Salford and Eccles. The government is listening. And this debate forms

:04:53.:04:57.

an important part of that process. I've heard the argument put forward

:04:58.:05:01.

by Honourable members today. We are all united in wanting to implement

:05:02.:05:05.

policies to deliver the best possible settlement for our

:05:06.:05:08.

constituents. Now, in the near future and for generations to come.

:05:09.:05:14.

This covenant's belief, Mr Speaker, underpins every aspect of our

:05:15.:05:18.

policies, will that without is honoured bases of economic

:05:19.:05:22.

stability, you can't protect the security of the nation. When

:05:23.:05:25.

economic stability is lost, the entire system falls apart and, as a

:05:26.:05:29.

rule, those who end up losing most of those who started with the least.

:05:30.:05:34.

Mr Speaker, I acknowledge as does my honourable friend the Chancellor the

:05:35.:05:39.

concerns expressed today and elsewhere and earlier by members of

:05:40.:05:43.

this house. The Chancellor has said he has listen to concerns from

:05:44.:05:45.

colleagues and will come forward with proposals in the Autumn

:05:46.:05:48.

Statement to achieve the goal of reforming tax credits, saving money

:05:49.:05:52.

needed to secure our economy while at the same time helping in the

:05:53.:05:57.

transition to these changes. In that context, I fear today I'm not

:05:58.:06:00.

telling the house too much that is new. But I respect the reasons that

:06:01.:06:04.

Honourable members have wished to bring forward this to bait. I and

:06:05.:06:09.

others have spoken at length in the past about how tax credits went out

:06:10.:06:18.

of control, how costs trebled and ended up costing ?30 billion. And

:06:19.:06:22.

about how the level of in work poverty rose over that same period.

:06:23.:06:26.

Mr Speaker, reforming welfare as part of the new settlement we are

:06:27.:06:30.

offering working Britain. Fundamentally, we have a choice

:06:31.:06:33.

about how people should be paid. On lower wages topped up why high state

:06:34.:06:39.

benefits, or high wages taking home more wages, and topped up by less.

:06:40.:06:44.

We believe in rebalancing the economy so that it is the boy who

:06:45.:06:49.

provides decent wages for the employees. -- it is the employer.

:06:50.:06:55.

The national living wage will mean over ?5,000 more gross full-time pay

:06:56.:07:02.

for someone on today's minimum wage. With record employment, although

:07:03.:07:06.

inflation, rising wages, a rising standard of living, this is the time

:07:07.:07:10.

to be making structural reform. Mr Speaker, our record on helping

:07:11.:07:14.

working people stretches far beyond this. Since 2010, our mission has

:07:15.:07:20.

been to get wages up, tax down and welfare under control. The best

:07:21.:07:24.

route out of poverty is work. So we have created conditions for 1,000

:07:25.:07:29.

new jobs to be created every day. 2 million since 2010. And we have

:07:30.:07:33.

plans that 3 million more apprenticeships. We have increased

:07:34.:07:35.

the tax-free personal allowance radically, we are doubling our

:07:36.:07:40.

childcare offer with three or four-year-old families. We have

:07:41.:07:46.

protected spending on our schools and National Health Service. As the

:07:47.:07:50.

prime ministers said yesterday, we remain committed to the vision of a

:07:51.:07:53.

high pay, low tax, lower welfare society. We believe the route to

:07:54.:08:00.

ensuring everyone is better off is to get the finances back in balance,

:08:01.:08:04.

keep growing the economy and jobs, keep inflation low, keep cutting

:08:05.:08:08.

peoples taxes and introduce the national living wage. A number of

:08:09.:08:13.

Honourable members have asked about distributional analysis the effect

:08:14.:08:27.

of these cuts. The burden is spread proportionately, albeit with a tax

:08:28.:08:31.

burden at the top of the distribution. The Right Honourable

:08:32.:08:34.

member for Birkenhead asked specifically about the data that had

:08:35.:08:38.

been available on what could be made available. The government has

:08:39.:08:44.

provided analysis about the overall distributional effect since 2010.

:08:45.:08:54.

That does not include the National minimum wage. He also asked about

:08:55.:09:00.

the interaction with the income tax personal allowance. As the Prime

:09:01.:09:04.

Minister said, with the improving labour market, additional childcare

:09:05.:09:08.

support and the introduction of the national living wage, more people

:09:09.:09:10.

would come into income tax and so would benefit from those raised

:09:11.:09:16.

thresholds. He also asked, as did my honourable friend from Holt on price

:09:17.:09:25.

and Howden, about the key subject of the rate at which money is taken

:09:26.:09:30.

away. I agree with the three Right Honourable gentleman on the

:09:31.:09:33.

importance of these threads and the effect they have on work incentives

:09:34.:09:38.

and I acknowledge the proposals did imply a High Peak margin withdrawal

:09:39.:09:43.

rate for people earning above the personal allowance and on the tax

:09:44.:09:46.

credits and housing benefit tapers at the same time but it is also

:09:47.:09:51.

important to remember that compares to a top rate today which is only

:09:52.:09:55.

two percentage points different. I'm afraid it is true that high marginal

:09:56.:09:59.

withdrawal rates have long been a feature of the UK benefit system and

:10:00.:10:04.

most welfare systems in developed nations. As they will both know very

:10:05.:10:09.

well, the key reform in this area is universal credit that this

:10:10.:10:12.

government has introduced, which sympathised the system by merging

:10:13.:10:17.

six benefits into one and moves the hours thresholds to various bikes at

:10:18.:10:26.

16, 24, and 30 hours. -- to various spikes. I will give way. Can I

:10:27.:10:33.

genuinely welcome the broad tone of the Honourable gentleman's

:10:34.:10:36.

contribution, and the fact he says the government is in listening mode.

:10:37.:10:41.

But from his response, it seems that there is no impact. Can I ask for

:10:42.:10:48.

his response to one specific from the House of Commons library 's own

:10:49.:10:50.

statistics, and it goes to the heart of the debate, that a family with

:10:51.:10:56.

two children after all the other changes he has talked about, a

:10:57.:11:04.

family with two children and ?20,420 will lose ?1233 and ?20,420 will

:11:05.:11:12.

lose does he not believe there will be impacts on these families? Mr

:11:13.:11:17.

Speaker, none of the third-party analysis that has been done takes

:11:18.:11:21.

into account all of the front changes and different elements of

:11:22.:11:25.

support that are coming in. Of course, it is the case that

:11:26.:11:27.

depending on exactly how many earners there are, the age of the

:11:28.:11:32.

children, there will be different impacts from any proposal. But the

:11:33.:11:37.

points I have made today is that as we have been discussing, the

:11:38.:11:41.

government is in listening mode. The Chancellor has said he will come

:11:42.:11:46.

back at the Autumn Statement to be able to say more. The question of

:11:47.:11:50.

childcare came up more than once, including most recently in the

:11:51.:11:55.

summing up from the honourable lady. There is a review going on on the

:11:56.:12:00.

cost reimbursement for childcare providers, and it is important that

:12:01.:12:05.

it must be a sustainable model. The question also came up from the

:12:06.:12:13.

honourable gentleman from East Antrim about the devolved

:12:14.:12:17.

administration Pramac. It is the case the 30 our offer is an England

:12:18.:12:23.

offer but there are and consequential is that go with that,

:12:24.:12:27.

and it is up to the devolved administration to proceed in the way

:12:28.:12:31.

they believe it is right. In the Scottish government, although I am

:12:32.:12:34.

happy to be corrected by members from the SNP, I believe the Scottish

:12:35.:12:37.

government has committed to bringing forward 30 hours from 2020. And I

:12:38.:12:41.

wonder if they might do that soon. There are also questions related to

:12:42.:12:53.

Scotland, but they were batted away. About what the ability of this gosh

:12:54.:12:57.

government might be to pursue their own course on tax and benefits. --

:12:58.:13:03.

the Scottish Government. As early as 2017, they will be able to set rates

:13:04.:13:08.

and bounds for income tax on earnings. That is clear in the

:13:09.:13:13.

Scotland Bill. The bill is also clear that they can top up benefits

:13:14.:13:19.

and make discretionary payments to claimants. The Secretary of State

:13:20.:13:28.

cannot withhold consent for them to do this. I am happy to give way for

:13:29.:13:34.

him to confirm what their intentions are. I am grateful. We have

:13:35.:13:41.

demonstrated that the Scottish Government has mitigated some of the

:13:42.:13:45.

worst effect of the welfare cuts over the last few years. ?100

:13:46.:13:50.

million in order to offset the bedroom tax. We want to protect the

:13:51.:13:54.

people of Scotland, but in order to do that we need the people of

:13:55.:13:57.

Scotland, but in order to do that we need to be powerless to do for power

:13:58.:14:04.

over our economy, taxation and Social Security. Give us to do it,

:14:05.:14:09.

we will protect the people of Scotland that West Minister is

:14:10.:14:16.

letting down! It is a line that they have used for quite some time. I

:14:17.:14:20.

don't know how long they will be able to continue. The reforms have

:14:21.:14:25.

been discussed in this house a number of times and voted on by the

:14:26.:14:29.

whole house on five occasions. The case for change is clear. This is

:14:30.:14:34.

not just on the school grounds, but also because the Labour way is not

:14:35.:14:45.

the way for stability. But we do acknowledge the concerns expressed.

:14:46.:14:50.

The Chancellor said we would listen and that is precisely what we intend

:14:51.:14:55.

to do. He believes and I believe that we can achieve the same goal of

:14:56.:15:00.

reforming tax credits, saving the money we need to save to secure our

:15:01.:15:05.

economy while helping in the transition. That is what he will set

:15:06.:15:10.

out in the Autumn Statement. Because we are determined to deliver that

:15:11.:15:15.

lover welfare, higher wage economy that we were elected to deliver.

:15:16.:15:19.

That the British people want to see and that working Britain deserves.

:15:20.:15:29.

Mr Speaker, I thank again the committee for allowing us to stay

:15:30.:15:32.

for what has been a fine debate, not just because of the eloquence, but

:15:33.:15:39.

because there is a very clear message from all parts of the house

:15:40.:15:43.

to the government. Nobody today has spoken in favour of these changes

:15:44.:15:48.

coming into force next April. And if they do not come into force next

:15:49.:15:53.

April, then it gives the government a good period of time to think

:15:54.:15:58.

seriously about how tax credits are reformed. And because I think that

:15:59.:16:02.

message is so important that we get that over to the Chancellor and his

:16:03.:16:06.

thinking, I hope the house will divide. Order, the question is the

:16:07.:16:21.

motion as on the order paper. Those who see aye. Those who see no.

:16:22.:16:50.

Division, clear the lobby. -- see. -- say.

:16:51.:18:36.

The question is in the motion as on the order paper. Those who see

:18:37.:18:38.

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