Browse content similar to 16/11/2015. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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borders and in the light of the events of the weekend, our force has | :00:00. | :00:00. | |
strengthened its activity at the Channel ports and that is the right | :00:00. | :00:07. | |
thing to do. Statement that the sectarian state for the homd | :00:08. | :00:12. | |
Department, Secretary Theresa May. Thank you. With permission Lr | :00:13. | :00:16. | |
Speaker, I would like to make a statement about the terrorist | :00:17. | :00:20. | |
attacks in Paris, our response and the threat we face from terrorism | :00:21. | :00:24. | |
and the United Kingdom. The full details of last Friday's horrific | :00:25. | :00:29. | |
attack in Paris are still elerging, but at least 129 innocent pdople | :00:30. | :00:32. | |
including at least one Brithsh national have been killed. Lore than | :00:33. | :00:37. | |
352 injured, with 99 of those declared critical. At the n`mes of | :00:38. | :00:42. | |
those brutally murdered become known, and we learn more about the | :00:43. | :00:46. | |
appalling events of that night, our thoughts and prayers with all of | :00:47. | :00:49. | |
those who have lost loved ones, suffered injuries, who are `ffected | :00:50. | :00:56. | |
by these horrific events. These were coordinated attacks, designdd to | :00:57. | :00:58. | |
inflict the maximum number of cavities on people who were simply | :00:59. | :01:03. | |
enjoying their daily lives. Our way of life. Does killed includdd people | :01:04. | :01:09. | |
from many countries across Durope and other countries around the | :01:10. | :01:13. | |
world. The international investigation into the attacks is | :01:14. | :01:16. | |
ongoing, but we know that Isil have claimed responsible the. Thhs is not | :01:17. | :01:22. | |
the first time that I that they have struck in Europe. We have sden these | :01:23. | :01:28. | |
attacks inspired by it in France, Belgium, and. The ongoing | :01:29. | :01:35. | |
devastating violence in Syrha and Iraq. In June, 30 British n`tionals | :01:36. | :01:42. | |
along with... Were killed bx gunmen. It looks increasingly likely | :01:43. | :01:47. | |
that the Russian MetroJet plane which crashed two weeks ago was | :01:48. | :01:51. | |
brought down by a bond. The scale of this latest attack and the degree of | :01:52. | :01:54. | |
coordination and planning ldave us with a little doubt that thd threat | :01:55. | :02:01. | |
is evolving. In the UK, the threat level set by the independent joint | :02:02. | :02:05. | |
terrorism analysis centre rdmained at severe. Meaning an attack is | :02:06. | :02:09. | |
highly likely that he could occur without warning. In the past months, | :02:10. | :02:13. | |
a number of serious products have been disrupted here in the TK. Over | :02:14. | :02:18. | |
750 people have got to travdl to Syria and Iraq and half of those | :02:19. | :02:25. | |
have returned. Our enforcemdnt and security intelligent agencids are | :02:26. | :02:27. | |
working constantly day and night to keep the people of this country safe | :02:28. | :02:31. | |
and secure. The government hs taking all the necessary steps to dnsure | :02:32. | :02:34. | |
they have the powers, capabhlities, and resources they need. As soon as | :02:35. | :02:40. | |
the attacks took place, we took steps to maintain the securhty of | :02:41. | :02:44. | |
the UK. The police have increased their presence on some stredts in | :02:45. | :02:47. | |
some locations, and they will be intensifying their approach in big | :02:48. | :02:53. | |
cities. Officers are working closely with London's communities and | :02:54. | :02:57. | |
businesses to provide reasstrance. Border force has intensified checks | :02:58. | :03:03. | |
on people, goods, and others entering the UK from the continent | :03:04. | :03:07. | |
and elsewhere. Additionally, in order to help French authorhties | :03:08. | :03:11. | |
secure their own border, border force and police have been | :03:12. | :03:14. | |
undertaking additional targdted security checks against passengers | :03:15. | :03:18. | |
and vehicles travelling to `nd from France, by maritime and real ports, | :03:19. | :03:21. | |
and by a number of airports across the country. Yesterday I ch`ired a | :03:22. | :03:27. | |
member that I meeting of cobra to determine our sponsored. Is a set in | :03:28. | :03:31. | |
a statement afterwards, UK police and security forces are working | :03:32. | :03:34. | |
extremely closely with the French and Belgian counterparts to identify | :03:35. | :03:38. | |
all those involved and purste anyone who may have been involved with | :03:39. | :03:44. | |
these barbaric attacks. Members will be aware that numbers of arrests | :03:45. | :03:47. | |
have been made in France ovdr the last 24 hours. As I informed the | :03:48. | :03:52. | |
House about the events in P`ris in January, we have held long detailed | :03:53. | :03:57. | |
plans to do with these attacks in the UK. Since the attacks in Mumbai | :03:58. | :04:03. | |
in 2008, we have improved otr police firearms response, building the | :04:04. | :04:05. | |
capability of our police and the speed of our military response. The | :04:06. | :04:10. | |
emergency services have also improved their preparedness for | :04:11. | :04:13. | |
dealing specifically with m`rauding gunmen attacked. Specialist joint | :04:14. | :04:19. | |
police and fire teams are now placed at important locations across | :04:20. | :04:21. | |
England with equivalents in Scotland and Wales. This summer, polhce and | :04:22. | :04:27. | |
emergency services tested this response as part of a major | :04:28. | :04:31. | |
counterterrorism exercise. @s I have told the House previously, the | :04:32. | :04:35. | |
police can call upon appropriate military response when requhred | :04:36. | :04:38. | |
across the country. Neverthdless, in light of events in France, ht is | :04:39. | :04:43. | |
right that we should review our response to firearms attacks and are | :04:44. | :04:47. | |
doing so urgently to ensure any lessons are learned. The UK has some | :04:48. | :04:52. | |
of the toughest firearms laws in the world. This sort of weaponrx used in | :04:53. | :04:57. | |
Paris in January and those that appear to have been used last Friday | :04:58. | :05:02. | |
are not readily available in the UK. We must therefore focus on tackling | :05:03. | :05:07. | |
firearms entering and moving throughout the EU and ensurhng that | :05:08. | :05:09. | |
we have the right capabilithes at the UK border to detect firdarms | :05:10. | :05:16. | |
being smuggled in. This Friday I will attend an extraordinarx meeting | :05:17. | :05:19. | |
with the Justice and home affairs Council where I will press the need | :05:20. | :05:23. | |
for greater information sharing passage and name records, and action | :05:24. | :05:28. | |
on firearms. In the UK we h`ve seen tough legislation work, so we want | :05:29. | :05:32. | |
to see action taken to make a difference to the availabilhty of | :05:33. | :05:35. | |
firearms in Europe, particularly assault rifles. Mr Speaker, it is | :05:36. | :05:40. | |
imperative that Europe pulls together to defeat this thrdat. | :05:41. | :05:43. | |
France is one of our oldest allies and we worked very closely with them | :05:44. | :05:47. | |
on issues of national terrorism Yesterday I spoke to my | :05:48. | :05:53. | |
counterpart, to offer our ddepest condolences to France. And to make | :05:54. | :05:58. | |
clear that the UK stands re`dy to provide any additional support and | :05:59. | :06:02. | |
assistance. I am very grateful to the Minister and the French for | :06:03. | :06:07. | |
maintaining a police presence during a difficult time. I have also spoken | :06:08. | :06:12. | |
to the Belgian Interior Minhster to offer our assistance. The House will | :06:13. | :06:16. | |
also know that the Prime Minister is today at the G20 in Turkey where he | :06:17. | :06:20. | |
is urgently speaking with hdads of state about the crisis in Sxria He | :06:21. | :06:24. | |
will make a statement to thhs house tomorrow. Since 2010, the government | :06:25. | :06:31. | |
has undertaken significant work to strengthen our response to the | :06:32. | :06:34. | |
threats we face by terrorisl. In 2014, we class legislation to | :06:35. | :06:41. | |
enforce the intelligent agencies could continue to ask the | :06:42. | :06:44. | |
information they needed. Whhle this does not expire until the end of | :06:45. | :06:48. | |
2016, last week we published the draft investigator he -- thhs bill | :06:49. | :06:55. | |
will improve the overall safeguards that agencies use of the powers | :06:56. | :07:00. | |
with the tools to keep us s`fe. Following a terrorist attack we | :07:01. | :07:02. | |
always consider the legal powers would have to keep our country | :07:03. | :07:06. | |
secure but it is important `t this landmark legislation undergoes | :07:07. | :07:10. | |
proper parliamentary scrutiny. Earlier this year the | :07:11. | :07:14. | |
counterterrorism act passed in the law which included measures to deal | :07:15. | :07:18. | |
specifically with the... To prevent radicalisation. In and closd a power | :07:19. | :07:25. | |
to seize the passports of pdople travelling to engage in terrorism | :07:26. | :07:29. | |
overseas, extends our ability to refuse airlines the authority to | :07:30. | :07:32. | |
carry people to the UK who pose a risk, and includes a statutory duty | :07:33. | :07:39. | |
for a wide range of public bodies. Through our existing prevention | :07:40. | :07:42. | |
programmes, we are identifyhng people at risk and help thel turn | :07:43. | :07:47. | |
their lives around. Our channel process in particular engagds | :07:48. | :07:49. | |
vulnerable people in conversations to prevent them from being drawn | :07:50. | :07:52. | |
further into extremism or vholent attacks. Mr Speaker, the police and | :07:53. | :07:57. | |
security intelligence agencx is doing an incredible job to give the | :07:58. | :08:02. | |
people of this country safe. Their work often goes unseen and | :08:03. | :08:05. | |
unrecognised. But we owe thdm an enormous debt of gratitude. Since | :08:06. | :08:11. | |
2010, we have protected the counterterrorism policing btdget and | :08:12. | :08:13. | |
as part of the budget earlidr this year, my right honourable friend | :08:14. | :08:18. | |
confirmed that counterterrorism spent across government would be | :08:19. | :08:22. | |
protected across the whole spending review. We have announced today that | :08:23. | :08:26. | |
we will go further. And through strategic defence and securhty | :08:27. | :08:31. | |
review, we will make new funding available to the security | :08:32. | :08:34. | |
intelligence agencies to provide for an additional 1900 officers, an | :08:35. | :08:40. | |
increase of 15%, at MI-5, and my six and GC HQ to better respond to the | :08:41. | :08:44. | |
threat we face from international terrorism, cyber attacks and other | :08:45. | :08:48. | |
global risks. We will also boost aviation security. That is why the | :08:49. | :08:52. | |
Prime Minister has ordered ` rapid review of security of a number of | :08:53. | :08:57. | |
airports around the world. @gency specialists will conduct assessments | :08:58. | :09:01. | |
over the next two months and locations in North Africa and the | :09:02. | :09:04. | |
Middle East in particular. This will follow measures that the US put in | :09:05. | :09:08. | |
place at a number of potenthally vulnerable airports of the last | :09:09. | :09:11. | |
year. Stats which will be rdviewed that they go far enough. Talara at | :09:12. | :09:16. | |
the national Security Counchl, we will discuss the government's policy | :09:17. | :09:20. | |
on aviation security, and the four-day proposal to double | :09:21. | :09:22. | |
government spending on aviation security over this Parliament. Mr | :09:23. | :09:28. | |
Speaker, the events in Paris have shocked and appalled people around | :09:29. | :09:31. | |
the world. In front, it will have queued up to donate lead, lhght | :09:32. | :09:38. | |
candles and laid flowers. In Britain, Australia, Canada, Brazil, | :09:39. | :09:42. | |
and many other countries, iconic landmarks and buildings havd been | :09:43. | :09:48. | |
lit in the colours of the French. People of all faiths have condemned | :09:49. | :09:51. | |
the violence and Muslims and indeed Muslims worldwide has said very | :09:52. | :09:56. | |
clearly that these events are abhorrent. The attacks have nothing | :09:57. | :10:01. | |
to do with Islam, which has followed peacefully by millions of pdople | :10:02. | :10:04. | |
around the world. The terrorists seek to divide us and to destroy our | :10:05. | :10:11. | |
way of life. But theirs is `n empty and perverted and murderous | :10:12. | :10:15. | |
ideology. They represent no one and they will fail. France gravds, but | :10:16. | :10:23. | |
she does not grieve alone. People of all faiths, all nationalitids, and | :10:24. | :10:26. | |
all backgrounds around the world are with you. And together, we will | :10:27. | :10:35. | |
defeat them. Before I called the shadow home secretary, the House | :10:36. | :10:37. | |
will wish to know that on the half of the House of Commons, I will be | :10:38. | :10:43. | |
conveying our heartfelt sincerity is, ... Our thoughts today `re with | :10:44. | :10:55. | |
our colleagues in Paris. Th`nk you Mr Speaker, and can I strongly | :10:56. | :10:59. | |
welcome the homesick unitarx state and many of these steps that she has | :11:00. | :11:04. | |
just announced. As we have come to expect, she has acted quickly and | :11:05. | :11:08. | |
with clarity, and she will have our support and taking the action needed | :11:09. | :11:13. | |
to protect the public here `nd across Europe. Our thoughts today | :11:14. | :11:18. | |
are primarily with the friends, families, loved ones, of those | :11:19. | :11:23. | |
killed or injured in Paris. These horrific attacks on innocent people | :11:24. | :11:28. | |
at the home secretary said, many young people, enjoying a night out | :11:29. | :11:32. | |
were not only an attack on France, but on a way of life we all share, | :11:33. | :11:39. | |
our freedoms and mobile cultural societies, and our shared v`lues, | :11:40. | :11:43. | |
those responsible want to intimidate us. We will not let them succeed. We | :11:44. | :11:48. | |
stand in solidarity with thd people of Paris and all the citizens of | :11:49. | :11:53. | |
France. The home Secretary was right to praise that British intelligence | :11:54. | :11:59. | |
and security services who work so tirelessly to keep us safe. Was what | :12:00. | :12:02. | |
they do goes unseen and unrdported, but as they know, we have foiled | :12:03. | :12:07. | |
many attacks here in recent times, they deserve our support and | :12:08. | :12:12. | |
gratitude. Two things are apparent from recent events, first, Hsil have | :12:13. | :12:19. | |
demonstrated that they have the capacity to hit mainland Europe and | :12:20. | :12:23. | |
caused my them widespread casualties. Second, it is an | :12:24. | :12:29. | |
escalation of intent. Alongside the parents of attacks, we have seed the | :12:30. | :12:34. | |
downing of the Russian airlhner and of course the bombings in Bdirut, | :12:35. | :12:38. | |
and the victims of both of those should be in our thoughts at this | :12:39. | :12:42. | |
time. This requires the international community to formulate | :12:43. | :12:46. | |
an urgent and effective response. Let me start with the circulstance | :12:47. | :12:51. | |
of the attack. What this atrocity reveals is how an attack on one | :12:52. | :12:55. | |
member state can be planned and coordinated in another and by | :12:56. | :12:59. | |
individuals who may not be known to the domestic security services of | :13:00. | :13:03. | |
that state where the attack took place. And I asked the home | :13:04. | :13:07. | |
Secretary, what arrangements are already in place for cooper`tion | :13:08. | :13:10. | |
between security services across Europe, can those arrangements be | :13:11. | :13:15. | |
strengthened in the light of this, and is there greater assist`nce that | :13:16. | :13:19. | |
can be provided between and across Europe between series by security | :13:20. | :13:24. | |
services. Let me turn to border security. The Schengen agredment is | :13:25. | :13:30. | |
of course primarily a matter for the countries who are participants to | :13:31. | :13:35. | |
it, but it does impact upon our own border security. While any changes | :13:36. | :13:40. | |
were made and matter for participants, does the government | :13:41. | :13:44. | |
have a review view on the w`y the agreement is operating and `re they | :13:45. | :13:47. | |
making representations to those Member States? To the home secretary | :13:48. | :13:53. | |
say more about what she thinks the impact of the Schengen agredment is | :13:54. | :13:58. | |
on UK Borders? Concerns havd been raised in resent days about people | :13:59. | :14:02. | |
travelling across Europe in cars in light of these attacks, and that | :14:03. | :14:05. | |
becomes particularly relevant in respect to the agreement. She said | :14:06. | :14:10. | |
security there will be strengthened. Can she ensure the House th`t cars | :14:11. | :14:15. | |
coming to the Channel Tunnel will be subject to the same securitx checks | :14:16. | :14:17. | |
as passengers coming through airports and indeed using Etro | :14:18. | :14:26. | |
star? Is she confident that proper arrangements are in place at all | :14:27. | :14:29. | |
regional airports, we welcole what she said about improving airport | :14:30. | :14:34. | |
security, but our regional `irports in such a strong enough poshtion to | :14:35. | :14:37. | |
deal with the challenges th`t they face? Mr Speaker, let me turn to | :14:38. | :14:43. | |
refugee policy. It is of cotrse essential to remember all the | :14:44. | :14:46. | |
micro-member that does fling are fleeing from the horrors of Isil | :14:47. | :14:51. | |
themselves. It is possible that the attackers in tears came through the | :14:52. | :14:55. | |
refugee route and it cannot be dismissed that this might bd an | :14:56. | :14:59. | |
attempt to undermine public confidence in Europe in welcoming | :15:00. | :15:03. | |
genuine refugees into our country. The fact that Europe is prepared to | :15:04. | :15:10. | |
welcome people into this cotntry is a wonderful validation of otr own | :15:11. | :15:14. | |
values and we must not be ddflected from that. But it does raisd issues, | :15:15. | :15:19. | |
first, and home secretary s`y more about what we're doing to strengthen | :15:20. | :15:23. | |
the processing of refugees `nd indeed the documentation of refugees | :15:24. | :15:26. | |
as they arrive in Europe so that there is an up-to-date database | :15:27. | :15:30. | |
maintained and secondly, can she say whether or not it would help | :15:31. | :15:34. | |
security services for the information to be quickly shared | :15:35. | :15:37. | |
across the security services around Europe so that individuals can be | :15:38. | :15:43. | |
identified that pose a risk. Can she say anything about reassuring the | :15:44. | :15:47. | |
public about the high-profile event coming up, particularly the football | :15:48. | :15:52. | |
match versus France this wedk? Vinci reassure the public that thd | :15:53. | :15:56. | |
necessary security measures are in place to make sure this can take | :15:57. | :16:00. | |
place safely? To mention thd Muslim community. And she is absolttely | :16:01. | :16:04. | |
right to say the evil ideology we see from Isil is not a refldction of | :16:05. | :16:09. | |
true Islam, in fact it is a perversion of it, but the community | :16:10. | :16:12. | |
in this country will be feeling an extra sense of nervousness right | :16:13. | :16:16. | |
now. What more can she say to reassure them and ensure th`t the | :16:17. | :16:23. | |
law-abiding Muslim communitx have our full support in dealing with the | :16:24. | :16:27. | |
threat. Finally Mr Speaker, let me turn to the powers funding of the | :16:28. | :16:32. | |
intelligent security servicds and the police. Given the comments | :16:33. | :16:36. | |
earlier today, that she intdnds a need for the Investigatory Powers | :16:37. | :16:42. | |
Bill and can she say a little more about that? We welcome the loney she | :16:43. | :16:45. | |
has enough today for counterterrorism. But I would ask | :16:46. | :16:49. | |
her not to seat count, counterterrorism and isolathon from | :16:50. | :16:56. | |
a security budget. She will know the Metropolitan police said last week | :16:57. | :17:01. | |
that cuts about 10% budget would hamper his ability to fight | :17:02. | :17:05. | |
terrorism on the streets of London. Today Ian Blair has said th`t the | :17:06. | :17:09. | |
loss of police community support officers from our streets would be | :17:10. | :17:14. | |
an absolute disaster in his words. In questions before this, she said | :17:15. | :17:17. | |
it was not about the numbers of police but the quality. Of course it | :17:18. | :17:20. | |
is about the quality of what they do, but it is about coveragd on the | :17:21. | :17:23. | |
ground as well. They have bden talking about 25% cuts to the police | :17:24. | :17:28. | |
budget, can she assured the House today that both she and the | :17:29. | :17:31. | |
Chancellor will revisit those assumptions by the police btdget in | :17:32. | :17:35. | |
light of what has happened `nd ensure the police have the funding | :17:36. | :17:39. | |
they need to do the job? Entry was a Mr Speaker, this is the single | :17:40. | :17:43. | |
biggest challenge of our generation. We need to avoid them a kned jerk | :17:44. | :17:48. | |
reaction but we must not shx away from action, we must decide with | :17:49. | :17:52. | |
resolve and strength and judgement and build consensus is the stronger | :17:53. | :17:56. | |
we are together, the quicker we will defeat this threat. And the aim of | :17:57. | :18:04. | |
Isil is to divide. To dividd our communities, to divide us | :18:05. | :18:06. | |
politically, and to divide ts from our European partners with whom we | :18:07. | :18:11. | |
share common values. Of the message goes out today Mr Speaker, we will | :18:12. | :18:16. | |
not let them prevail. Let us say clearly today that they will not | :18:17. | :18:20. | |
succeed, that we will stand as one in our communities, as a cotntry, | :18:21. | :18:24. | |
and united with our European partners. Can I think the rhght | :18:25. | :18:28. | |
honourable gentleman for thd remarks he has made, thank him for the | :18:29. | :18:32. | |
support he has shown for thd measures and measures we have taken | :18:33. | :18:37. | |
so far. Thank you for the clear message we have heard from the whole | :18:38. | :18:40. | |
of this house that we condeln the attacks that took place in Paris and | :18:41. | :18:44. | |
that the terrorists will not win and we will defeat them. I think him | :18:45. | :18:51. | |
also for the support he gavd the security intelligence agenches which | :18:52. | :18:54. | |
I said earlier are unseen and unrecognised, but are doing such an | :18:55. | :18:58. | |
important job for us day by day He was a right to say that although we | :18:59. | :19:03. | |
are currently focused on thd pad, attacks in Paris, of course there | :19:04. | :19:05. | |
have been a number of attacks conducted in the name of Ishl in | :19:06. | :19:08. | |
other places around the world our thoughts are with their with all of | :19:09. | :19:14. | |
those who had been the victhm of attacks of terrorist attacks. In | :19:15. | :19:18. | |
that, he mentioned the Muslhm community here in the UK. Wd should | :19:19. | :19:22. | |
never forget that if you look across the world, the largest numbdr of | :19:23. | :19:26. | |
people who have been killed by terrorists in various countries are | :19:27. | :19:31. | |
a chart themselves Muslim. Hs not a -- it is a peaceful religion, | :19:32. | :19:34. | |
practiced by millions of people around the world, they have already | :19:35. | :19:39. | |
risen up in communities herd in the UK and in France and elsewhdre and | :19:40. | :19:43. | |
said these are attacks that are not in our name. We look forward to | :19:44. | :19:48. | |
working further with people in the Muslim community around the United | :19:49. | :19:51. | |
Kingdom to help those mainstream voices to come forward and to be | :19:52. | :19:56. | |
heard. But it is also important as my honourable friend indicated in | :19:57. | :20:02. | |
home office questions, that we asked the police to separately iddntified | :20:03. | :20:07. | |
Muslim hate crimes that we can see the nature and extent of th`t | :20:08. | :20:10. | |
because it has been increashng recently in recent years as has | :20:11. | :20:16. | |
anti-Semitic incidents. A considerable amount of coopdration | :20:17. | :20:20. | |
exists between services and police across the European Union, we will | :20:21. | :20:23. | |
of course be looking to see what further can be done, I have offered | :20:24. | :20:28. | |
us to my assistance in the wake of the attacks to both my French | :20:29. | :20:32. | |
counterpart and my Belgian counterpart, but I would expect this | :20:33. | :20:36. | |
cooperation and sharing of intelligence to be a subject we will | :20:37. | :20:39. | |
be considering at the Justice home affairs Council. What happens in | :20:40. | :20:44. | |
Shengen is for nominally a latter for those in the agreement `nd we | :20:45. | :20:49. | |
are not. We have been working with countries who are in Shengen to | :20:50. | :20:55. | |
strengthen our borders and we do look at ensuring the necess`ry | :20:56. | :20:58. | |
processing and documentation of people coming in as migrants does | :20:59. | :21:02. | |
take place at those external borders, and that is import`nt | :21:03. | :21:06. | |
because of course as we know, many of the migrants are in actu`lly | :21:07. | :21:11. | |
refugees, they are illegal dconomic migrants and it is doubly ilportant | :21:12. | :21:14. | |
to be able to ensure that pdople can be returned when they have no right | :21:15. | :21:18. | |
to be in Europe. We are working on those hotspots at the external | :21:19. | :21:22. | |
borders and also have purport not provided some capability from the UK | :21:23. | :21:28. | |
to help debrief people coming through, migrants coming through | :21:29. | :21:31. | |
these routes so that we can get a better understanding of the roots | :21:32. | :21:34. | |
they are using and what is happening a Borders. The right honour`ble | :21:35. | :21:38. | |
gentleman mentioned being in France football match, I think it hs | :21:39. | :21:41. | |
important that this mask is important that this match goes | :21:42. | :21:45. | |
ahead, I think it is a signdd but did two countries coming together in | :21:46. | :21:49. | |
a friendly activity in this way I have spoken with the police and they | :21:50. | :21:53. | |
will of course be ensuring that there are appropriate measures in | :21:54. | :21:56. | |
place in relation to security of that particular match and of course | :21:57. | :22:00. | |
there are decisions for the police to take, on the up question of the | :22:01. | :22:05. | |
IP bill, it is right that at all times we reviewed the timing of what | :22:06. | :22:09. | |
we do in terms of legislation and the timing of that legislathon, but | :22:10. | :22:13. | |
it isn't significant bill and I think it is right that it is given | :22:14. | :22:17. | |
proper scrutiny in Parliament. On the issue of national securhty and | :22:18. | :22:22. | |
policing, I would say this of course, people very often think of | :22:23. | :22:26. | |
national security enters thd Justice security and intelligence agency, | :22:27. | :22:29. | |
but of course there are othdr terrorism policing and policing more | :22:30. | :22:33. | |
generally, but also other aspects of what is done, and areas of the home | :22:34. | :22:37. | |
office in terms of order security which are also an important part of | :22:38. | :22:40. | |
our national security and wd will be looking at these issues. Evdnts in | :22:41. | :22:50. | |
Paris have exposed the truth about Isis and the fellow jihadists, and | :22:51. | :22:54. | |
that they hate us, not becatse of what we do, but because of what we | :22:55. | :23:00. | |
are. They hate our history, our identity, and our values. Does my | :23:01. | :23:03. | |
right honourable friend agrded that those who say that if we le`ve them | :23:04. | :23:09. | |
alone they will leave us alone are peddling a dangerous and de`dly | :23:10. | :23:14. | |
deception? I think my right honourable friend makes a vdry | :23:15. | :23:18. | |
important point. It is quitd clear that those at attacks in Paris and | :23:19. | :23:26. | |
elsewhere that this poisonots ideology is an ideology which is | :23:27. | :23:31. | |
against the way in which thd West conducts its life. Be sort of lives | :23:32. | :23:35. | |
we lead and the sort of strtctures we have in the West. And indeed | :23:36. | :23:39. | |
elsewhere in other parts of the world. He is absolutely right that | :23:40. | :23:43. | |
it is not the case that if we take no action, then they will t`ke no | :23:44. | :23:47. | |
action against us, it is very clear they have evil intent and s`dly as | :23:48. | :23:51. | |
we saw on Friday, they have put that evil intent into practice. Thank you | :23:52. | :23:58. | |
Mr Speaker. I would like to welcome the home Secretary statement and | :23:59. | :24:01. | |
thank her for that. I would also like to associate myself and the | :24:02. | :24:06. | |
comments of others and grathtude for those who keep us safe. Whether the | :24:07. | :24:11. | |
police or intelligence servhces As irony said, I would like to add | :24:12. | :24:14. | |
condolences of those on these benches to the rest of the House. I | :24:15. | :24:21. | |
would like to reiterate what the Scotland's for Spencer said, our | :24:22. | :24:23. | |
thoughts and prayers and solidarity are with Paris and France. @fter | :24:24. | :24:27. | |
this unspeakably awful and deeply shocking event. Mr Speaker, it is | :24:28. | :24:31. | |
only right that we should rdview mitres and the light of these events | :24:32. | :24:36. | |
and be in a position to givd people the insurance they require to it get | :24:37. | :24:42. | |
their safety. I welcome what the home secretary has already said in | :24:43. | :24:45. | |
relation to the Muslim commtnity, who are highly valued and integral | :24:46. | :24:49. | |
part of Scottish and United Kingdom's society, with the home | :24:50. | :24:51. | |
Secretary sure me that she will stand alongside the Scottish | :24:52. | :24:54. | |
government in preventing thdse events from destroying or affecting | :24:55. | :25:02. | |
that community? I also appl`ud the fact that the home secretarx seems | :25:03. | :25:06. | |
determined -- determined to not knee jerk or consider response to these | :25:07. | :25:11. | |
atrocities and response and heard usual measured matters. ... In | :25:12. | :25:22. | |
relation to this atrocity. The home Secretary has said this alrdady | :25:23. | :25:25. | |
though she -- will she confhrm that there'll be no curtailments of the | :25:26. | :25:31. | |
next time already allocated for the scrutiny of the bill and will she | :25:32. | :25:34. | |
stand by her previous assurdr assurances that adequate tile will | :25:35. | :25:40. | |
be allocated for passage of the bill. As regard to refugees, will | :25:41. | :25:47. | |
she confirm that the home office Artie have in place robust screening | :25:48. | :25:51. | |
processes and that she will remain resolved to protect and givd these | :25:52. | :25:56. | |
people... Finally briefly, she mention increased security `t a | :25:57. | :26:00. | |
measure of airports. And shd confirm that all airports are the stbject of | :26:01. | :26:02. | |
such measures? I think the honourable Lady for her | :26:03. | :26:13. | |
joining in the condemnation as she had earlier of the Friday attacks. | :26:14. | :26:17. | |
She is right to say that we should all across the United Kingdom stand | :26:18. | :26:23. | |
united in the condemnation of those attacks, and unite one commtnity | :26:24. | :26:27. | |
with another to ensure that... None of us want to see any sort of | :26:28. | :26:31. | |
backlash against any partictlar part of any community within the United | :26:32. | :26:34. | |
Kingdom as a result of the `ttacks that took place. Is important that | :26:35. | :26:38. | |
we do not reassurance, that we are one nation, the United Kingdom, | :26:39. | :26:42. | |
together standing against the terrible barbarity of these | :26:43. | :26:47. | |
terrorists. In terms of the investigatory Powers Bill, `s they | :26:48. | :26:51. | |
invest -- said my statement, as we look terrorism legislation hn every | :26:52. | :26:55. | |
state, we are always reviewhng what is necessary and the timing of that. | :26:56. | :26:59. | |
Is a significant bill, and ht is right that it should be givdn proper | :27:00. | :27:03. | |
scrutiny. In relation to thd screen of refugees, yes there are processes | :27:04. | :27:10. | |
in place, to a twofold procdss. . Not be used in HR who are for | :27:11. | :27:14. | |
refugees to the home office for resettlement in the UK, unddrtake | :27:15. | :27:21. | |
screening which includes biometric interviews, and then there hs a | :27:22. | :27:24. | |
further level that is undertaken by the home office in relation to | :27:25. | :27:30. | |
further by metrics and further security checks for the indhviduals | :27:31. | :27:38. | |
concerned. This a threat and its underlying ideology is going to have | :27:39. | :27:42. | |
to be combated for many years, but this task is going to be a luch more | :27:43. | :27:46. | |
difficult if this ideology continues to have territory under its control | :27:47. | :27:50. | |
from which to project these attacks on us. As well as on other countries | :27:51. | :27:55. | |
as copy of the Prime Ministdr made clear this morning, defeating Isil | :27:56. | :28:02. | |
in Syria requires a transithon out of the Syrian Civil War, and that | :28:03. | :28:06. | |
she welcomed the fact that Hndiana over the course over the last two | :28:07. | :28:11. | |
weeks, finally the internathonal community seems to be getting its | :28:12. | :28:16. | |
collect back together? He is right that we do need to see a solution, a | :28:17. | :28:20. | |
resolution of the conflict that is taking place in Syria, and that | :28:21. | :28:24. | |
transition that he is referring to is important. I am pleased to see | :28:25. | :28:30. | |
that the talks are but a desperate dressing and Yannick. I'm stre that | :28:31. | :28:34. | |
everyone in this house was to see those talks successful, wants to see | :28:35. | :28:38. | |
an end to the conflict and barbarity that is taking place in Syrha. | :28:39. | :28:43. | |
Indeed, it is being undertaken by Isil elsewhere. Can I welcole the | :28:44. | :28:51. | |
home Secretary's statement on the unity of the front benches `nd. We | :28:52. | :28:55. | |
are the most multicultural country in the world, and we should be proud | :28:56. | :29:00. | |
of this. That is why engagelent with community is so important. On | :29:01. | :29:05. | |
airport security, it is not just our airport, because British citizens | :29:06. | :29:08. | |
travelled to North Africa and other holiday destinations. If thdre was a | :29:09. | :29:13. | |
request from these countries that we supplied equipment to help them | :29:14. | :29:18. | |
would we be willing to provhde that? In respect to the sharing of | :29:19. | :29:23. | |
information, which country hs preventing the use of passenger | :29:24. | :29:27. | |
recognition, and how can he convince them to change their minds with | :29:28. | :29:34. | |
When will we be ready to john a new system? In relation to the puestion | :29:35. | :29:38. | |
about Equus -- Airport security the gentleman is right that airport | :29:39. | :29:43. | |
security in airports around the world where British travelldrs | :29:44. | :29:46. | |
travel from is important to us. Stabbing a number of occasions where | :29:47. | :29:51. | |
we have done exactly what hd says an offered equipment or indeed | :29:52. | :29:53. | |
medicament and available to other airports around the world to | :29:54. | :29:57. | |
increase their level of sectrity. As I said in my statement, and exercise | :29:58. | :30:03. | |
is now being undertaken to look a number of airports, particularly in | :30:04. | :30:06. | |
the Middle East and North Africa, at the security arrangements at this | :30:07. | :30:11. | |
particular airports. Is right that we do that, to ensure that we have | :30:12. | :30:17. | |
that confidence level of security that is being provided in rdlation | :30:18. | :30:20. | |
to those who are travelling to those airports. No coherent milit`ry | :30:21. | :30:28. | |
strategy against Isil in Syria can be formulated at they get government | :30:29. | :30:36. | |
faces up to the unpleasant fact that will have to have donated efforts | :30:37. | :30:43. | |
with Russia. With a useful first step before cooperation between the | :30:44. | :30:46. | |
security services in this country, and the Russian security services in | :30:47. | :30:53. | |
this field, despite our resdrvations and concerns about Russia's | :30:54. | :31:01. | |
behaviour in other parts of Europe. I say to my honourable friend that | :31:02. | :31:05. | |
of course talks have been t`king place in the G20, with a nulber of | :31:06. | :31:09. | |
international leaders about the question of Syria, and what action | :31:10. | :31:12. | |
needs to be taken in relation to Syria and to future governmdnts of | :31:13. | :31:18. | |
that country, and I look forward to the outcome of those partictlar | :31:19. | :31:21. | |
talks. This is important th`t we do ensure that every effort is being | :31:22. | :31:25. | |
made, that there can be a rdsolution to the conflict in Syria. B`illy | :31:26. | :31:30. | |
because of the impact that that can have on Isil, but also becatse of | :31:31. | :31:33. | |
the millions of Syria in Syria. Bailly because of the impact that | :31:34. | :31:36. | |
that can have on Isil, but `lso because of the millions of Syrians | :31:37. | :31:41. | |
who have. I welcome the homd secretary's his solidarity with the | :31:42. | :31:45. | |
people of Paris in the face of such terrible loss, and the barb`ric | :31:46. | :31:50. | |
assault on our values. I also welcome the increase in resource and | :31:51. | :31:54. | |
staffing in the security intelligence agencies to do so much | :31:55. | :31:58. | |
work to keep us safe. Character also to have the same approach to the | :31:59. | :32:02. | |
core policing, particularly around neighbourhood policing, bec`use she | :32:03. | :32:07. | |
will know the intervention, and also the local intelligence work that | :32:08. | :32:12. | |
they do help stop the tailored bachelors of Mohammed solid is also | :32:13. | :32:20. | |
an assay performance -- important. She makes the point that thhs is a | :32:21. | :32:25. | |
battle for hearts and minds of. As she will be aware, we have watched | :32:26. | :32:29. | |
catechumens and the strategx and we wish to work in accordance nation | :32:30. | :32:34. | |
with agencies across the cotntry to promote the knowledge that we share. | :32:35. | :32:39. | |
We tell is the ideology that seeks to divide us, and it is important | :32:40. | :32:43. | |
that that work is undertaken in a whole variety of ways. One of the | :32:44. | :32:46. | |
concerns that people in manx communities have had about some of | :32:47. | :32:50. | |
the work has been precisely that they have felt that his been too | :32:51. | :32:54. | |
much in a security space, and not enough about integration and | :32:55. | :32:57. | |
cohesion of communities. Is absolutely right that our counter | :32:58. | :33:00. | |
activism work that we are undertaking would be in partnership | :33:01. | :33:03. | |
with people within communithes working together to promote cohesive | :33:04. | :33:08. | |
communities and to promote mainstream voices. Can she dxplain | :33:09. | :33:15. | |
why the government, for four months, has blocked the debate on the floor | :33:16. | :33:21. | |
of the house on the European agenda on immigration, refugee smuggling, | :33:22. | :33:24. | |
and relocation which has bedn demanded by the European data | :33:25. | :33:29. | |
committee? Wishing you with me and other MPs to review rejection by the | :33:30. | :33:33. | |
government on the counterterrorism bill on the 6th of January, which | :33:34. | :33:38. | |
have riveted EKG houses frol returning to the UK? And finally to | :33:39. | :33:46. | |
discuss the disproportionatd... Including the charter of fundamental | :33:47. | :33:50. | |
rights that endanger human right, overwriting the Supreme Court and | :33:51. | :33:55. | |
our parliament. European unhon often undermines it. I said to my | :33:56. | :34:03. | |
honourable friend that I understand they should be possible that in the | :34:04. | :34:06. | |
not-too-distant future we should see debates on the floor of this house | :34:07. | :34:09. | |
on matters that he has raisdd. I would also say to my honour`ble | :34:10. | :34:14. | |
friend than the counterterrorism and security act earlier this ydar, we | :34:15. | :34:20. | |
did undertake and have a nulber of powers in relation to those who | :34:21. | :34:24. | |
would travel to Syria or who are returning from Syria. That has | :34:25. | :34:30. | |
increased the powers of intdlligence aid agencies. , dating all | :34:31. | :34:33. | |
interested colleagues will require great brevity. We can, as so often, | :34:34. | :34:52. | |
delay... The home secretary knows better than most but so most people | :34:53. | :34:56. | |
that successful counterterrorism depends on information gathdred by | :34:57. | :35:02. | |
neighbourhood policing, and by cutting back truly important link, | :35:03. | :35:06. | |
her intelligence officers whll not bring about the results that she | :35:07. | :35:12. | |
desires. Of course, I have to say to the lady that the counterterrorism | :35:13. | :35:18. | |
work depends on the gathering of intelligence. That intelligdnce is | :35:19. | :35:22. | |
gathered in a whole variety of ways. He as you will be aware and has been | :35:23. | :35:27. | |
indicated in oral questions earlier, if you look at the percentage of | :35:28. | :35:31. | |
police officers who are involved in violent policing, it has done of | :35:32. | :35:33. | |
police officers who are involved in violent policing, it had gone over | :35:34. | :35:40. | |
the with my friend to join le in paying tribute to Nick Alex`nder who | :35:41. | :35:47. | |
was tragically killed... And can she also enter this house that she will | :35:48. | :35:50. | |
do all that she can to work with the French authorities to bring the | :35:51. | :35:53. | |
perpetrators of this heinous crime to justice? Ice and rug with my | :35:54. | :36:02. | |
honourable friend in sending our condolences to the family and | :36:03. | :36:06. | |
friends of the constituents who was brutally murder in the attack that | :36:07. | :36:09. | |
took place in Paris last ye`r. Sunday was just went about his | :36:10. | :36:13. | |
business, a business which was providing enjoyment and fun to other | :36:14. | :36:19. | |
people, particularly to young people. He was known down in this | :36:20. | :36:22. | |
way, and I can give my friend absolute assurance that he got - we | :36:23. | :36:26. | |
are given every assistant that we can to the French authoritids and | :36:27. | :36:28. | |
indeed to others in Europe hn ensuring that we can bring those who | :36:29. | :36:34. | |
were any part of the progression in his back -- attack to justice. I | :36:35. | :36:39. | |
live near Paris, and spend lany evenings in the area that w`s | :36:40. | :36:43. | |
desecrated in Friday night. To my friend friends, I state... FRENCH. | :36:44. | :36:57. | |
I'm sure the Secretary of State would join me in the response of a | :36:58. | :37:04. | |
small group must not be too poppy drawbridge on the hundreds of | :37:05. | :37:06. | |
thousands of juror genuine cheering refugees who are fleeing in terror | :37:07. | :37:11. | |
similar of that info John T`ras -- Paris on Friday. The gentlelan is | :37:12. | :37:19. | |
right. In a number of questhons I have responded in relation to the | :37:20. | :37:23. | |
issue of the United Kingdom's own plans to bring in a number of | :37:24. | :37:26. | |
steering refugees. Is right that we continue to do that as I have | :37:27. | :37:31. | |
indicated. We have security arrangements, and there are many | :37:32. | :37:34. | |
people who have been displaced as a result of the barbarity that has | :37:35. | :37:37. | |
taken place in Syria, displ`ced from their homes who need protection who | :37:38. | :37:44. | |
need assistance. We stand rdady to play our part as indicated. May I | :37:45. | :37:54. | |
too welcome the meeting between the Prime Minister and President Putin | :37:55. | :37:59. | |
as a conservative step towards the resolution of the hearing more. -- | :38:00. | :38:08. | |
Syrian war. Well my friend not rude to me that the events in Paris | :38:09. | :38:13. | |
illustrates the need to provide our intelligence services all the powers | :38:14. | :38:17. | |
that they need in order to deal with us to keep our people safe from | :38:18. | :38:24. | |
depraved Islamic fundamentalists? I absolutely agree with my honourable | :38:25. | :38:27. | |
friend, and I am sure the m`jority of the public arena. | :38:28. | :38:42. | |
Landscapers attention that one of the perpetrators of these attacks | :38:43. | :38:48. | |
have previously been on the periphery of any inquiry th`t the | :38:49. | :38:54. | |
security service had been c`rried out. We welcome the fact th`t she | :38:55. | :39:01. | |
will be attending the meeting of of the Justice Council on Frid`y. Was | :39:02. | :39:09. | |
she raises the issue of shared information, was she also t`lked | :39:10. | :39:13. | |
about the shared information on the sorts of cases, because every can't | :39:14. | :39:18. | |
spot them earlier, and we c`nnot spot them before the crime hs | :39:19. | :39:24. | |
committed. He makes an important point, and in looking at thdse | :39:25. | :39:29. | |
issues as far as possible wd wish to be able to identify people `t before | :39:30. | :39:33. | |
they can conduct an attack. This ties in with not just | :39:34. | :39:37. | |
counterterrorism, but also criminality, which is one of the | :39:38. | :39:41. | |
reasons that we are looking to see an improvement in the exchange of | :39:42. | :39:44. | |
information about criminality among the countries within the European | :39:45. | :39:50. | |
Union. I have French relatives in Paris. I associate myself whth the | :39:51. | :39:58. | |
home Secretary's remarks in terms of this attack. She made the rhght | :39:59. | :40:02. | |
point that I would and this country, we are blessed by the fact of the | :40:03. | :40:06. | |
availability of automatic wdapons. In some cases of more sophisticated | :40:07. | :40:13. | |
explosive. Is hard in this country to obtain. We should have adequate | :40:14. | :40:18. | |
screening at our borders to prevent importation. We have good | :40:19. | :40:21. | |
intelligence, but that in itself cannot be a substitute for ht. I | :40:22. | :40:26. | |
wonder what party she is gohng to be able to get to that point. On the | :40:27. | :40:30. | |
second matter, I want to sax about her comments on his on the 40th -- | :40:31. | :40:35. | |
as on the 40th... Is on the phobia... This country would be wise | :40:36. | :40:44. | |
not to underestimate its impact My friends other point is right. One of | :40:45. | :40:48. | |
the reasons why it is important to ask the police to separatelx record | :40:49. | :40:53. | |
anti-Muslim hate crime is for us to get a better understanding of the | :40:54. | :40:58. | |
extent of this. , my's stathstic has been suggesting that it has | :40:59. | :41:01. | |
increased in recent years. Hs important that we play our part in | :41:02. | :41:06. | |
addressing a problem and recognising the impact they has on a problem and | :41:07. | :41:09. | |
recognising the impact that has on her muzzle them -- communithes. He | :41:10. | :41:11. | |
asked about firearms, and I have been pressing for some time now for | :41:12. | :41:15. | |
greater action within the Etropean Union in relation to him about | :41:16. | :41:20. | |
firearms. I expect that this will be further discussed later in this | :41:21. | :41:25. | |
two-week. We must also ensure that the national crime that agency is | :41:26. | :41:29. | |
undertaking operations at looking specifically at this issue with our | :41:30. | :41:33. | |
border force as to how it would be possible for us to add to the United | :41:34. | :41:36. | |
Kingdom at, and what further action can be taken to prevent that. Mr | :41:37. | :41:42. | |
Speaker I was alarmed to he`r that last week French security sdrvices | :41:43. | :41:50. | |
were informed of a man detahned in Bavaria with automatic weapons. In | :41:51. | :41:56. | |
welcoming the home Secretarx's commitment to additional resource, | :41:57. | :42:00. | |
and for our security servicds, can she confirm that it is new loney, | :42:01. | :42:05. | |
that the appointments of 1900 officers will be new, and that such | :42:06. | :42:09. | |
information could have been given to our services? I'm not able to | :42:10. | :42:19. | |
comment on the particular c`se that he outlines, because I do not know | :42:20. | :42:22. | |
all of the facts within that. There have been reports of the media, but | :42:23. | :42:26. | |
I think that it is important -- important for me not to comlent on | :42:27. | :42:31. | |
that. I can confirm that thdse will be subject to additional money. I | :42:32. | :42:41. | |
express our solidarity with our French colleagues in intern`tional | :42:42. | :42:48. | |
Poland today. In two world wars shoulder to shoulder. May I speak | :42:49. | :42:54. | |
directly to them and say... Tailback French. | :42:55. | :43:03. | |
I think that I can only respond to my honourable friend by sayhng. . | :43:04. | :43:17. | |
FRENCH. Can I add my voice to those who have condemned these barbaric | :43:18. | :43:22. | |
attacks on France, and thosd who have a flight from Egypt to Russia. | :43:23. | :43:29. | |
One of my many concerns is that there will be a rise in the Islam of | :43:30. | :43:37. | |
phobia, and I want him to the home Secretary's words when she said .. | :43:38. | :43:44. | |
In light of those words can I encourage everyone in this house to | :43:45. | :43:47. | |
stop using the name of Islal when talking about these terrorists. The | :43:48. | :43:50. | |
name that they have given themselves is Isil, and can I encouragd | :43:51. | :43:59. | |
everyone to use the term. It is something that might break the link | :44:00. | :44:02. | |
in peoples minds between Islam and terrorism. I say to the honourable | :44:03. | :44:07. | |
Lady Diana Seppi with the boy that she has made. I do not you H do | :44:08. | :44:18. | |
often use a term... This group is not Islamic, and it is not ` state. | :44:19. | :44:21. | |
We should not give the imprdssion of either of those. Can I thank the | :44:22. | :44:28. | |
Secretary of State for her statements. It will be widely | :44:29. | :44:33. | |
welcomed in France, or offer us towards supporting cooperathon, and | :44:34. | :44:36. | |
also he is insistent that the election on. She would know that | :44:37. | :44:41. | |
there are numerous attempts on the British public, and that we should | :44:42. | :44:45. | |
be deeply grateful for security services. Went on to the | :44:46. | :44:48. | |
investigatory Powers Bill, will she reflect on proposals to involve | :44:49. | :44:52. | |
judiciary on the executive decision on issuing warrants. Base should be | :44:53. | :44:57. | |
in the hands in the sector of state who bear a response ability to this | :44:58. | :45:02. | |
house, by all means involve the judiciary after the event, dates, or | :45:03. | :45:06. | |
a week later. We should really consider that it must be a Secretary | :45:07. | :45:12. | |
of State -- state that makes this decision, and dispute that hs a | :45:13. | :45:16. | |
vital. He is right, there are cases where speed is essential. That is | :45:17. | :45:22. | |
why in the investigatory Powers Bill, we provide for emergency or | :45:23. | :45:25. | |
urgency situations, where the timeliness is required, and in those | :45:26. | :45:30. | |
circumstances it will be possible for Secretary of State to shgn a | :45:31. | :45:33. | |
word to that would come into effect immediately before the judicial | :45:34. | :45:38. | |
authority has considered a. He asks me to look at the double locked them | :45:39. | :45:43. | |
to put in place. I agree with him that it is important to havd public | :45:44. | :45:47. | |
accountability over the dechsion made by the Secretary of St`te. I | :45:48. | :45:50. | |
also know there is concern from people to ensure that there is a | :45:51. | :45:54. | |
second element of judicial authority. Some people wantdd only | :45:55. | :45:57. | |
to be judicial authority, bh do not think that is right. The wax that we | :45:58. | :46:01. | |
are going with the accountability of the Secretary of State and the | :46:02. | :46:03. | |
independence of the judiciary is right. We condemn these murders and | :46:04. | :46:15. | |
depraved attack. We send our console condolences. The organisation who | :46:16. | :46:23. | |
perpetrated the attacks that do that with the home Secretary is for the | :46:24. | :46:26. | |
house that the government is doing all that it can to aid international | :46:27. | :46:34. | |
efforts to stop the supply of arms and expertise to terrorist `t the | :46:35. | :46:40. | |
source? I said to the honourable gentleman that indeed we ard looking | :46:41. | :46:42. | |
across the board that every editor and step that can be taken hn | :46:43. | :46:46. | |
relation to these matters. We did see a difference in this attack in | :46:47. | :46:50. | |
relation to the attacks previously had undertaken in a name of Isil, | :46:51. | :46:55. | |
because it has been and reqtired proration and planning. He hs right | :46:56. | :47:02. | |
that is important to stem the availability of at source. @s a | :47:03. | :47:05. | |
reason that we have been looking at, or continue to look it up across | :47:06. | :47:09. | |
Europe at the question of the movement of the movement of | :47:10. | :47:12. | |
firearms, particularly heavx weaponry like assault rifles across | :47:13. | :47:22. | |
Europe. I would like to add, on behalf of my constituents following | :47:23. | :47:25. | |
Friday's perfect attack in Paris. The primary -- by minister suggested | :47:26. | :47:30. | |
that the government will be looking at a timetable by the draft of the | :47:31. | :47:33. | |
investigatory Powers Bill. Dvent in Paris and Brussels have highlighted | :47:34. | :47:37. | |
the importance to make sure that our intelligence and security sdrvices | :47:38. | :47:39. | |
have all the resources that they need. Within a legal framework to | :47:40. | :47:49. | |
show signs -- to Franco Lee tax -- act of terrorism of having xour | :47:50. | :47:54. | |
home. And might pray and offer information into the privatd Mr s | :47:55. | :47:58. | |
anaesthetist morning. I would like to add my support to the frhend when | :47:59. | :48:06. | |
she talked about that the Isil are nothing by death. He went b`ck I | :48:07. | :48:11. | |
commend my friend for the comments that she has made a. In rel`tion to | :48:12. | :48:17. | |
the timing, as I have indic`ted we have always looked to make sure that | :48:18. | :48:21. | |
we have in place the legisl`tion that enables Oracle -- police and | :48:22. | :48:28. | |
security and intelligence agencies the power that they need. The | :48:29. | :48:31. | |
investigatory Powers Bill significant piece of legisl`tion | :48:32. | :48:35. | |
and. We expected to stand the test of time, we do want it to bd changed | :48:36. | :48:42. | |
by governments on a constant basis. It is important that we get right, | :48:43. | :48:46. | |
and it is important and therefore they has proper scrutiny and also | :48:47. | :48:49. | |
they has support across this house, given the nature of the leghslation | :48:50. | :49:06. | |
that we are introducing. Thdse young people who were attacking P`ris | :49:07. | :49:11. | |
they must've gotten brainwashed somewhere across the line someone. | :49:12. | :49:17. | |
To the secretary of the state does what she's going to do to stop them | :49:18. | :49:23. | |
from getting too young people, and speculate who of finances these | :49:24. | :49:33. | |
people? Young the honourabld gentleman has raised an important | :49:34. | :49:37. | |
point about counter radicalhsation. That is why there is in place the | :49:38. | :49:42. | |
preventive programme, and whthin the prevent programme the channdl | :49:43. | :49:44. | |
programme which specificallx deals with individuals and worse to move | :49:45. | :49:51. | |
them away from a path of radicalisation. Bratwurst more | :49:52. | :49:55. | |
generally within communities. Any counterterrorism act we provided | :49:56. | :50:01. | |
greater training to identifx these issues of potential running | :50:02. | :50:05. | |
radicalisation, and ability to take action against him. Beyond that we | :50:06. | :50:09. | |
have lost our contract team is a strategy because it is important | :50:10. | :50:13. | |
that we challenged the extrdmist ideology that lies behind that | :50:14. | :50:16. | |
radicalisation. As far strategy and to do. Mr Speaker, does my friend | :50:17. | :50:26. | |
accept that many of the successes against drugs and arms smugglers | :50:27. | :50:29. | |
have been because of the work of the border force, maritime aeri`l | :50:30. | :50:35. | |
surveillance capability. As well as its team based at an ever in my | :50:36. | :50:40. | |
constituency. Was she therefore reserve -- reverse the decision to | :50:41. | :50:43. | |
terminate at contract with the affect of January sixth in 2016 and | :50:44. | :50:50. | |
in so doing you do warning of a baroness that we will otherwise be | :50:51. | :50:55. | |
left with a gap in our capability in maritime surveillance? I sax to him | :50:56. | :51:01. | |
that what is important is that we have the capability that we need. I | :51:02. | :51:04. | |
can reassure him that we will be ensuring that we do indeed have the | :51:05. | :51:12. | |
capability that we need. In a genuine spirit of inquiry, hs a | :51:13. | :51:18. | |
sensitive area, with the set of withdrawing citizenship frol some | :51:19. | :51:21. | |
who to promote and act on the basis of an eye -- ideology of threat to | :51:22. | :51:27. | |
the fellow citizens of the TK quiz you? Went back I do have thd power | :51:28. | :51:33. | |
to remove citizenship, and H have acted that way on a number of | :51:34. | :51:37. | |
occasions. The is subject to some limitations in relation to dnsuring | :51:38. | :51:41. | |
that people are not made st`teless, although we did our -- enhance our | :51:42. | :51:47. | |
ability to remove citizenshhp in the last bill that we passed. Whth the | :51:48. | :51:57. | |
home secretary agreed that Hsil and targets in Syria should be bound by | :51:58. | :52:02. | |
RDF, and is it not time for the house to be consulted again on this | :52:03. | :52:06. | |
matter? The Prime Minister has made clear that you will only cole back | :52:07. | :52:09. | |
to the house on this matter when there is a consensus, and obviously | :52:10. | :52:13. | |
everyone in this house will be considering their position on that | :52:14. | :52:19. | |
particular matter. Home secretary and welcome statement has ptt stress | :52:20. | :52:25. | |
on the importance of our cotnter extremism strategy. In building a | :52:26. | :52:31. | |
sense of shared values, which I do what she has called pervertdd and | :52:32. | :52:36. | |
murderous values of these tdrrorist. Will she be with her colleagues in | :52:37. | :52:41. | |
the Department of education, in the Department of education, and those | :52:42. | :52:45. | |
departments can can do to btild that shared sense of value? I sax to the | :52:46. | :52:51. | |
honourable lady that the extremism task force is chaired by thd Prime | :52:52. | :52:54. | |
Minister, and it includes both the promise that she has mentioned, and | :52:55. | :52:58. | |
others as well as well as the home office. But she looks at thd | :52:59. | :53:03. | |
federation strategy, Sue -- she will see that includes references to the | :53:04. | :53:08. | |
Department of education, th`t they have already moved in relathon to | :53:09. | :53:13. | |
that work on promoting the shared values that we share as part of | :53:14. | :53:23. | |
living in this society. My friend has mentioned 129 birth, and the | :53:24. | :53:29. | |
hundreds still in hospital. In addition, there are people like a | :53:30. | :53:32. | |
friend of mine, who on Frid`y night within a bistro just yards from the | :53:33. | :53:39. | |
cafe that was attack. PMs to friends escaped. They ran down the road | :53:40. | :53:45. | |
only to find themselves getting very close to another area which was | :53:46. | :53:51. | |
under attack. He has now returned home, and I can tell you and the | :53:52. | :53:56. | |
house that he is totally tr`umatised to stop the wish to work across | :53:57. | :54:04. | |
government to ensure that pdople like him and others who havd | :54:05. | :54:07. | |
returned back to the UK, who have been hurt in this way, will receive | :54:08. | :54:11. | |
assistance from the Departmdnt of health and other organizations? Yes, | :54:12. | :54:16. | |
I can give him that that reassurance. The foreign office has | :54:17. | :54:20. | |
insured that the support is available for those who havd | :54:21. | :54:23. | |
returned who were caught up in this, not just those who are physhcal in | :54:24. | :54:27. | |
jeopardy, but those who havd been, ties as a result of the x-r`ys of | :54:28. | :54:31. | |
the head. I would suggest allowable friend that you can't ask the | :54:32. | :54:34. | |
Minister of the foreign offhce who is on the treasurer branch ,- bench | :54:35. | :54:38. | |
who and will be at able to dnlighten him. I have received the sad news | :54:39. | :54:48. | |
courtesy of the skull in thd newspaper that a young man from Fort | :54:49. | :54:54. | |
William is an induced, it al Paris, having been caught up in thd events. | :54:55. | :54:59. | |
I would like to ask the homd Secretary was a Barbie can give to | :55:00. | :55:03. | |
the family in this situation, not just be a young man involved, but | :55:04. | :55:08. | |
his extended family, and Rosato -- and solidarity to those who've been | :55:09. | :55:09. | |
caught this is well-stocked? In our thoughts are with hil. And | :55:10. | :55:18. | |
his family and friends and honestly be held that he will make a | :55:19. | :55:24. | |
recovery. There is constant support to families who wish to be | :55:25. | :55:29. | |
supporting members of the f`mily who are in hospital in France. We have | :55:30. | :55:35. | |
also a wider point we look `t what assistance the Department of Health | :55:36. | :55:39. | |
can give to friends, partictlarly looking at the issue of those who | :55:40. | :55:43. | |
have been traumatised by thd event and experience that we have here in | :55:44. | :55:47. | |
the Department of Health. Work is ongoing and all sorts of exchanger. | :55:48. | :55:51. | |
As I've said, there is assistance available on the British assembly in | :55:52. | :55:56. | |
Paris. And we have sent a tdam over to Paris to help with network. | :55:57. | :56:06. | |
Allenby 2003 bombings, Morocco set up the camera back to train foreign | :56:07. | :56:14. | |
overseas. Including women preachers. And the moderate Sunni tradhtion, | :56:15. | :56:19. | |
that characterises backcountry. Last month, an agreement was reached with | :56:20. | :56:24. | |
friends and I respect. What can we learn from that experience? Will be | :56:25. | :56:28. | |
a benefit to the UK and would do commend Barack Obama this | :56:29. | :56:35. | |
initiative? Yes. I absolutely command Morocco for the initiative | :56:36. | :56:40. | |
that it took. My Honorable friend, the Minister from Foreign Office who | :56:41. | :56:44. | |
is responsible for North Africa visited that facility recently. We | :56:45. | :56:50. | |
are encouraging other countries in the Middle East to take a shmilar | :56:51. | :56:59. | |
approach. Can I join the Hole Secretary and baking our security | :57:00. | :57:03. | |
services, our police and Arled Forces for the work that thdy do in | :57:04. | :57:08. | |
keeping a safe. The Home Secretary spoke of taking all necessary steps | :57:09. | :57:12. | |
to prevent attacks on the UK. I ll be grateful if you can take say | :57:13. | :57:15. | |
something about what work is taking place to audit all of our existing | :57:16. | :57:19. | |
security capabilities, to ensure that we have what we need in the | :57:20. | :57:23. | |
right place, at the right ldvel of preparedness and that it is properly | :57:24. | :57:27. | |
resource die because she also confirmed that she exited examining | :57:28. | :57:30. | |
our resilience and not just in London, but in towns and cities | :57:31. | :57:35. | |
across the UK? I can certainly assure the honourable gentldman that | :57:36. | :57:38. | |
we do not just look at resilience in London, we look across the TK. As I | :57:39. | :57:42. | |
indicated earlier, in relathon to these sorts of writing done attacks, | :57:43. | :57:51. | |
we had enhance our ability to deal with these, not just the police | :57:52. | :57:54. | |
capabilities, but the ability of the emergency services to work together | :57:55. | :57:57. | |
to save lives and high risk situations. That is being rdviewed | :57:58. | :58:03. | |
as a result of the terrorist attacks to see if there are any lessons that | :58:04. | :58:08. | |
we need to learn from those attacks. We are looking across other aspects | :58:09. | :58:10. | |
of our security arrangements to ensure that they are appropriate and | :58:11. | :58:19. | |
to the thread that we face. Was then chilled at this older with the | :58:20. | :58:22. | |
people of France, and I both have to be with the families and all of the | :58:23. | :58:26. | |
victims at this time. When ht comes to security of our borders, we are | :58:27. | :58:33. | |
only as strong as our weakest link. The French as it disorder control | :58:34. | :58:37. | |
over the weekend, what extent can the secretary... To the atthtude is | :58:38. | :58:43. | |
important control throughout the rest of the EU? I say to her that of | :58:44. | :58:50. | |
course the internal borders within this second area are for those | :58:51. | :58:55. | |
countries who are members of second. We have of course been disctssing | :58:56. | :58:58. | |
with other countries in the European union of the whole question of the | :58:59. | :59:02. | |
external borders of Europe. And how we can enhance those the security at | :59:03. | :59:06. | |
the external borders, and wd will continue with the discussions. I | :59:07. | :59:16. | |
welcome the Home Secretary of state. She is aware that my constituency of | :59:17. | :59:21. | |
bent -- Brent North is one with the highest numbers of refugees and | :59:22. | :59:23. | |
asylum seekers from the Middle East in the country. In light of the | :59:24. | :59:31. | |
clear advice above current `nd former Metropolitan Police | :59:32. | :59:33. | |
commissioners of the import`nce of neighbourhood safety teams `nd local | :59:34. | :59:36. | |
policing, will see me with the current Police Commissioner and look | :59:37. | :59:42. | |
at the needs of constituenches, like mine, to ensure that those local | :59:43. | :59:45. | |
neighbourhood safety teams `re kept in place and enhanced in order to | :59:46. | :59:53. | |
ensure that the strategy is fine? I can assure the honourable gdntleman | :59:54. | :59:55. | |
that I meet regularly with the Commissioner. To discuss a number of | :59:56. | :00:01. | |
issues relating to the policing of lending and what a responsible | :00:02. | :00:12. | |
disease that he has. I welcome my friend in a statement with regards | :00:13. | :00:15. | |
to the doubling of resources for airport securities during this | :00:16. | :00:20. | |
Parliament. She will note that over the weekend, airports has bdcause | :00:21. | :00:29. | |
after a lightly French national was was caught with a firearm. Will she | :00:30. | :00:35. | |
join me in paying tribute to Sussex Police, and also security at the | :00:36. | :00:42. | |
airport for their vigilance? I am aware there was an incident that | :00:43. | :00:46. | |
took place. It with that with very professionally by the policd and I | :00:47. | :00:49. | |
certainly commend the work of the Sussex Police at the airport, and | :00:50. | :00:54. | |
also the wider work of Sussdx Police and the work that they do to keep | :00:55. | :01:01. | |
people safe. I was to offer my condolences. These people are not of | :01:02. | :01:08. | |
my faith and should not be regarded as such. I wish to pay tribtte to | :01:09. | :01:14. | |
that's our police and securhty for the work that they do in kedping us | :01:15. | :01:18. | |
safe. I had knowledge the ftnding has been met, and also have comments | :01:19. | :01:26. | |
on islamophobia. Was to look at the border agency and staffing that | :01:27. | :01:31. | |
needs to be done? Not just to keep -- does the Air Force, but `ll of | :01:32. | :01:38. | |
our airports than the tubul`r that. Can I welcome the statement that the | :01:39. | :01:42. | |
honourable gentleman made. H think it is important that the st`tement | :01:43. | :01:45. | |
that he has made his has bedn made here in the House. In that lessage | :01:46. | :01:49. | |
should go out across the whole of the country. Would do a look | :01:50. | :01:55. | |
staffing across, not just ahrports, but in relation to reports to. We | :01:56. | :02:02. | |
are constantly looking at the appropriate staffing and me`sures | :02:03. | :02:05. | |
that are in place to maintahn security. Will do that on an ongoing | :02:06. | :02:13. | |
basis. I welcome the Prime Minister's of increased funding for | :02:14. | :02:15. | |
our intelligence services, they are doing a good job. In light of of the | :02:16. | :02:23. | |
events of Paris, and hide a risk here in London, may I heckld across | :02:24. | :02:28. | |
the sufficient funding to ensure comprehensive neighbourhood policing | :02:29. | :02:31. | |
in London, which is a cruci`l tool in tackling home-grown terror was | :02:32. | :02:38. | |
white I, always leave the ftnding that will be available to individual | :02:39. | :02:41. | |
police forces and the polichng budget and general will be lade | :02:42. | :02:44. | |
known that the basement to review and the allocation, which whll be a | :02:45. | :02:52. | |
few weeks after that. I can assure him that in looking at all of these | :02:53. | :02:55. | |
matters, we of course look `t the capabilities that are required by | :02:56. | :03:00. | |
our police. Are looking at anti-terror resumed work, wd live | :03:01. | :03:03. | |
across the board at the cap`bilities that are required to ensure that we | :03:04. | :03:10. | |
can maintain our national sdcurity. Over the weekend, there werd great | :03:11. | :03:19. | |
celebrations and hierarchy of the capture of... , Lord Robertson be | :03:20. | :03:26. | |
the from Syria, and the asshstance of UK forces through the air and | :03:27. | :03:36. | |
other partners. That has broken the connection between... Candy Home | :03:37. | :03:42. | |
Secretary speak from the colleagues from the Commonwealth officd and | :03:43. | :03:44. | |
other government departments and assess mouth, is it not timd that we | :03:45. | :03:52. | |
did more in this country, both to assist... And see how we can destroy | :03:53. | :03:59. | |
in his headquarters? The honourable gentleman is right. We need to do | :04:00. | :04:07. | |
the the dais and we that and we do that in a whole variety of ways | :04:08. | :04:09. | |
Dealing with them when they are primarily based as part of that He | :04:10. | :04:14. | |
is right in referring to thd recapture. That is an important | :04:15. | :04:22. | |
landmark that has taken place. I am sure is that you will noticd that | :04:23. | :04:26. | |
there is a form, web offices on the progress that would the rem`rks that | :04:27. | :04:33. | |
he he has made. What my fridnd agreed that that those who seek to | :04:34. | :04:36. | |
defend our liberties, those enjoyed by Christians, Muslims, those of | :04:37. | :04:40. | |
faith or none, by depriving the security services of the powers that | :04:41. | :04:45. | |
they need actually put thosd liberties at risk and should | :04:46. | :04:49. | |
consider their position? I think my friend makes an important point I | :04:50. | :04:55. | |
think people talk about sectrity and liberties as is some sort of 0-sum | :04:56. | :04:59. | |
game, but actually you can only enjoy your liberties if you have | :05:00. | :05:09. | |
your security. I spent this morning with one of my constituents who | :05:10. | :05:14. | |
spent Friday night dischargd from the battle cut. Despite the summer | :05:15. | :05:17. | |
that he had been through, hd wanted to speak to me about was his | :05:18. | :05:22. | |
concerns about the Syrian community, particularly in light of | :05:23. | :05:24. | |
the passport that was found. His view is that that those who run away | :05:25. | :05:29. | |
from the alarm of state, run away from Syria because they do not share | :05:30. | :05:33. | |
his values, just because we do not share his values. It is important | :05:34. | :05:35. | |
that we continue to make it clear that a juror, we welcome refugees. | :05:36. | :05:45. | |
In your. At the Honorable L`dy knows, we are committed to welcoming | :05:46. | :05:48. | |
thousands of refugees beford Christmas, at 20,000 over the course | :05:49. | :05:54. | |
of this Parliament. He is rhght those waffling the action that is | :05:55. | :05:58. | |
taking place in Syria are playing from the barbarism of Isil, but also | :05:59. | :06:02. | |
many cases playing from att`cks of the Syrian people from his own | :06:03. | :06:05. | |
government. Is why it is so important that we ensure th`t we | :06:06. | :06:11. | |
find a resolution, a political resolution, for what is happening in | :06:12. | :06:16. | |
Syria. So that those many htndreds of thousands series who havd had to | :06:17. | :06:20. | |
flee their homes, are able to go back to where they want to be, which | :06:21. | :06:28. | |
is home. My friend referred to the French governments management.. I | :06:29. | :06:34. | |
want to support her expresshon of gratitude to them. As she knows | :06:35. | :06:38. | |
there are around 5000 peopld leaving -- living just outside of C`li who | :06:39. | :06:45. | |
are desperate to get to the UK. The government invest in better security | :06:46. | :06:48. | |
over the summer, which has been effective. There are still some | :06:49. | :06:51. | |
people getting through the border every night. Could she advise what | :06:52. | :06:57. | |
further steps will be taken to ensure that the border at C`l is | :06:58. | :07:01. | |
secure, but also make sure conditions in the camp refldct our | :07:02. | :07:10. | |
values, especially compassion? And regards, the conditions in Canada, | :07:11. | :07:13. | |
some funding has been made `vailable to the French government for | :07:14. | :07:18. | |
facilities in the camps, and we ourselves the UK Government has | :07:19. | :07:21. | |
committed funding to the Frdnch government, to work with thdm and | :07:22. | :07:26. | |
identify victims of trafficking who may be in the camps. On the security | :07:27. | :07:29. | |
front, we have stepped up the spring that has taken place. -- tr`ining. | :07:30. | :07:42. | |
Increase the security fencing there, the French government has increased | :07:43. | :07:46. | |
police presence, and we havd increased the number of scrdening | :07:47. | :07:50. | |
activities with are taking place over a variety of source. -, sorts. | :07:51. | :08:03. | |
The Secretary of State will be aware that Glasgow was the scene of a | :08:04. | :08:06. | |
spontaneous vigil for peace and tolerance the solidarity with Paris | :08:07. | :08:13. | |
on Saturday. Is also prepardd to welcome refugees. That she `greed | :08:14. | :08:16. | |
that the promotion of peace and tolerance is the best way to | :08:17. | :08:20. | |
counteract terrorism and living up to our place to welcome reftgees is | :08:21. | :08:24. | |
one of the best ways to demonstrate that tolerance? I think it hs | :08:25. | :08:27. | |
absolutely right that we should pledge peace and tolerance. Was to | :08:28. | :08:32. | |
be done all to encourage pe`ce and tolerance. And assured that there is | :08:33. | :08:36. | |
tolerance within communities here in the United Kingdom. There are | :08:37. | :08:41. | |
numerous bigoted afternoon have already referred to. And welcoming | :08:42. | :08:46. | |
of refugees, giving them protection, and that homes of those who have | :08:47. | :08:50. | |
been the place from conflict and Syria is at very good example of | :08:51. | :08:58. | |
that. Hunger for the Home Sdcretary that should mention the word that | :08:59. | :09:01. | |
should mention the work will see played tribute to... 11 working 24 | :09:02. | :09:08. | |
hours of round-the-clock since this matter occurred, some of thd | :09:09. | :09:15. | |
parliamentary business last Monday, and was far to take the opportunity | :09:16. | :09:18. | |
to recognise that now is not a time... He is right. I first met he | :09:19. | :09:30. | |
was was a national security adviser, he is well aware of the isstes | :09:31. | :09:35. | |
around the issue. He has bedn doing and asked on a job as our Albassador | :09:36. | :09:39. | |
in France. I have seen him work closely over the summer months in | :09:40. | :09:44. | |
relation to this issue. He dnters that have been working tirelessly | :09:45. | :09:49. | |
over this to ensure the consulate support is available to those | :09:50. | :09:52. | |
British families who have bden caught up in these terrible attacks. | :09:53. | :09:56. | |
But also to ensure that every assistance had me given givdn to the | :09:57. | :09:58. | |
French authorities in the work that they are doing. Indoctrinathon of | :09:59. | :10:08. | |
young boy and mines is a re`l source of concern one, to the growth of | :10:09. | :10:14. | |
radical Islam. Lastly, only the schools... Would have a real problem | :10:15. | :10:21. | |
with private Muslim faith schools, people dropping off the reghster. | :10:22. | :10:28. | |
And heard the secretary to work with the Secretariat, as an air of real | :10:29. | :10:31. | |
concern, cope because we ard not doing the job at the moment. I think | :10:32. | :10:36. | |
he raises a point. We have seen already some actions they'vd taken | :10:37. | :10:40. | |
place in this area. The govdrnment is committed to taking further | :10:41. | :10:44. | |
action in relation to suppldmentary schools. Will be looking at further | :10:45. | :10:53. | |
inspections a supplementary schools that are providing a number of | :10:54. | :10:55. | |
certain hours of education, I think it is important, both in relation to | :10:56. | :11:01. | |
the issue that he has raced on radicalisation, and also just as a | :11:02. | :11:09. | |
general safeguarding issues. And I welcome the Secretary of St`te's | :11:10. | :11:17. | |
statement today of the meastres announced for security servhces As | :11:18. | :11:21. | |
you'll recognise, that Metropolitan Police have counterterrorisl | :11:22. | :11:24. | |
launches, not only in London but across the country. Can ask her what | :11:25. | :11:29. | |
extra support might be extended to them at least and execution of these | :11:30. | :11:35. | |
duties? He is right that thd counterterrorism command, is based | :11:36. | :11:45. | |
the Metropolitan Police. Th`t is funded through the countertdrrorism | :11:46. | :11:48. | |
policing grant, as are the counterterrorism regional units that | :11:49. | :11:54. | |
have existed in place like the best, Northwest across the country. | :11:55. | :12:04. | |
We will of course... And having cleared the cat counterterrorism | :12:05. | :12:11. | |
funding will continue to be protected the type of the story and | :12:12. | :12:15. | |
we welcome her attendance at the European justice and home affairs | :12:16. | :12:18. | |
Council on Friday. That the Home Secretary at the Andrew of the | :12:19. | :12:20. | |
story, and we welcome her attendance at the European justice and home | :12:21. | :12:23. | |
affairs Council on Friday. That the Home Secretary that agree whth me | :12:24. | :12:25. | |
with our European union partners and friends system the flow of `rms to | :12:26. | :12:31. | |
share information, and. Fild acts of terrorism? And the. That cooperation | :12:32. | :12:36. | |
is important. We are looking to enhance the cooperation and a number | :12:37. | :12:41. | |
of areas, including as I indicated earlier, the movement of firearms, | :12:42. | :12:47. | |
and things like the exchangd across borders of information about | :12:48. | :12:49. | |
criminality and criminal records. So that we can all better protdct our | :12:50. | :13:01. | |
citizens in the future. I wdlcome the secretaries's statement and | :13:02. | :13:04. | |
particularly that they will be increased border checks on vehicles | :13:05. | :13:08. | |
entering the UK. Does my right honourable friend not agree that in | :13:09. | :13:16. | |
order to further... Of illegal immigrants and illegal fire`rms | :13:17. | :13:19. | |
being brought in to the UK, every single vehicle entering this country | :13:20. | :13:29. | |
should be thoroughly checked? I say to my friend that the decishons | :13:30. | :13:34. | |
about the assessment of which checks are taken any particular vehicle, is | :13:35. | :13:38. | |
a matter for the border force that they'll be taken at our borders | :13:39. | :13:42. | |
They have a clear mandate that they operate under. To have incrdased the | :13:43. | :13:46. | |
number of checks that they `re undertaking. I would say to him that | :13:47. | :13:52. | |
of course they will be lookhng for those who are trying to embdd the UK | :13:53. | :13:55. | |
illegally. They'll be looking for those who are tried to bring in | :13:56. | :13:59. | |
firearms illegally. They have had success in both of those ardas, and | :14:00. | :14:04. | |
I think our border force officers do an excellent job for us. Thd Home | :14:05. | :14:13. | |
Secretary would have heard `nd heard departmental questions and during | :14:14. | :14:16. | |
the statement that the high level of concern across the country `re at | :14:17. | :14:21. | |
because of the police forces. Can I ask her what considerations she had | :14:22. | :14:24. | |
been having a discussion with the Minister of defence about utilising | :14:25. | :14:29. | |
the Armed Forces and prevention and potentially responding should there | :14:30. | :14:35. | |
be an attack in the UK? I c`n assure her it that there are tacit | :14:36. | :14:40. | |
arrangements in place, for lilitary support to be provided to the police | :14:41. | :14:44. | |
when necessary. These were hssues that we looked at after the attacks | :14:45. | :14:52. | |
in Paris that had earlier this year,... And attacks in London. At | :14:53. | :15:09. | |
somebody from and military background, I agree with her. This | :15:10. | :15:14. | |
was caused by an evil organhzation. We all have to unite togethdr to | :15:15. | :15:18. | |
defeat this evil organization. Its ideology and propaganda that pushes | :15:19. | :15:25. | |
forward. , ask the secretarx it it is estimated that 80% of tax in the | :15:26. | :15:37. | |
UK have prevented... -- att`cks , is that correct, and we continted with | :15:38. | :15:42. | |
that? I do not comment on any particular information or | :15:43. | :15:46. | |
intelligence that has led to the ability to disrupt potential | :15:47. | :15:50. | |
attacks. We of course work with a number of countries overseas in | :15:51. | :15:53. | |
relation to intelligence sh`ring, and I can confirm that the Prime | :15:54. | :15:59. | |
Minister said this morning, that in the last 12 months, seven tdrrorist | :16:00. | :16:01. | |
attacks have been disrupted in the UK. I listen very carefully to the | :16:02. | :16:11. | |
defence secretary statement about the Jones. To become Secret`ry of | :16:12. | :16:18. | |
State speak a little bit about the nation and the origin of thd first | :16:19. | :16:21. | |
that we faced, and to what dxtent we are facing directly... I thhnk the | :16:22. | :16:30. | |
fact is that the bread that we face is diverse. The fact that started | :16:31. | :16:36. | |
with a Isil is diverse, as we have seen what has happened in P`ris | :16:37. | :16:40. | |
individuals conducting an attack would have been prepared and | :16:41. | :16:44. | |
planned. Of course, it is possible these days with social medi` for | :16:45. | :16:47. | |
people who are based and ond territory to reach out to others, | :16:48. | :16:51. | |
and encouraged him to go out and undertake an attack on our streets. | :16:52. | :16:58. | |
Soda bread that we face is ` diverse spread, and some of that threat | :16:59. | :17:01. | |
honestly does originate frol that territory that is by Isil. Further | :17:02. | :17:10. | |
to the previous question, I have to say I has to go out to thosd in | :17:11. | :17:19. | |
Paris. At the nature of the threat, as my right friend said that if the | :17:20. | :17:22. | |
dais were defeated in Syria and Iraq, that would not necess`rily | :17:23. | :17:30. | |
stop the problem in Western Europe. Is important that we do the dais. Of | :17:31. | :17:37. | |
course, as my Honorable fridnd will recognise, there are threats that we | :17:38. | :17:44. | |
face that cannot just some of them. Doctorates from organizations and | :17:45. | :17:47. | |
nations that have links to @l-Qaeda for example. What matters is | :17:48. | :17:54. | |
important, is of course that we defeat the ideology that lids behind | :17:55. | :17:59. | |
these terrorist groups. That can be done in a variety of ways. Ht is why | :18:00. | :18:04. | |
the moves that would have m`de, such as the counter extremism strategy in | :18:05. | :18:11. | |
the UK, often important. Often there is a focus on security agencies and | :18:12. | :18:16. | |
police can do. A focus on the sort of activity. But defeating the | :18:17. | :18:21. | |
ideology is essential. On strvivors of the attacks in Paris expressed | :18:22. | :18:27. | |
surprise at the young age of some of the suicide bombers. It has been | :18:28. | :18:30. | |
reported, for example, that one of the bombers may have been as young | :18:31. | :18:35. | |
as 15 years old. I have alrdady raised this house the issue of the | :18:36. | :18:42. | |
growth of suicide bombings. With the Secretary of State agree th`t this | :18:43. | :18:45. | |
is an urgent matter that we need to do more to consider? I shard with | :18:46. | :18:51. | |
the honourable gentleman thd concern about the potential use of some of | :18:52. | :18:55. | |
these evolved in the attacks. Sadly, what we have seen in recent times it | :18:56. | :19:00. | |
that those who are attempting to or travelling to Syria, saying more and | :19:01. | :19:07. | |
more younger people attempthng to travel, and indeed some casds here | :19:08. | :19:11. | |
in the UK of people and thehr teenage years being prosecuted. For | :19:12. | :19:17. | |
the Obama and potential terroristic activities. This in a matter of | :19:18. | :19:20. | |
concern and. Is a question of dealing with the radicalized nation | :19:21. | :19:23. | |
that is taking place of the two of those young minds. As my frhend | :19:24. | :19:31. | |
knows, the dispersal centre for asylum seekers and will be welcomed | :19:32. | :19:36. | |
a share of asylum seekers over the next few weeks. Can I ask hdr what | :19:37. | :19:42. | |
action she is taking to makd sure these are genuine asylum sedkers and | :19:43. | :19:46. | |
I terroristic? And out with can assure that younger asylum seekers | :19:47. | :19:50. | |
will not be radicalized? In relation to those -- both refugees that we | :19:51. | :19:56. | |
are accepting from Syria and people who come here and claim asylum, we | :19:57. | :20:01. | |
do make the necessary securhty checks and that is an important part | :20:02. | :20:06. | |
of the process that we undertake. Of course, one individual who's is | :20:07. | :20:11. | |
unaccompanied, a child or a minor towns listed in UK, the verx have | :20:12. | :20:17. | |
been giving to a number of number of members this afternoon are | :20:18. | :20:21. | |
important. It is a part of that within communities, we promote the | :20:22. | :20:25. | |
mainstream voices and coheshon within communities that can help | :20:26. | :20:27. | |
provide the resilience against that radicalized nation. How does the | :20:28. | :20:39. | |
secretary respond to the cl`im made by President Clinton that the dais | :20:40. | :20:45. | |
is funded by 40 countries, hncluding members of the G20. And doesn't the | :20:46. | :20:50. | |
government and the opposition as of the congratulations of the nation to | :20:51. | :20:54. | |
their restraint measured response to the terrible events, and th`t the | :20:55. | :20:59. | |
government now fully embracdd the notion that hearts and minds can | :21:00. | :21:02. | |
never be won over by bombs `nd bullets? What lies behind the | :21:03. | :21:10. | |
terrorist attacks, what lies behind the dais, is a perverted iddology. | :21:11. | :21:19. | |
It is important, that we de`l with that perverted ideology. We need to | :21:20. | :21:22. | |
be taking the steps to make sure that our police and securitx | :21:23. | :21:27. | |
agencies, our border force, have the powers and abilities to keep us safe | :21:28. | :21:32. | |
and secure. What what underpins with the terrorists do it that pdrverted | :21:33. | :21:36. | |
ideology. That is why dealing with that ideology, confronting ht is so | :21:37. | :21:44. | |
important. Cycles he said that if he is reelected, that he will seek to | :21:45. | :21:48. | |
electronically tag all of those on the extremist watchlist. Had the | :21:49. | :21:53. | |
secretary of state consider doing the same in this country? In | :21:54. | :22:01. | |
relation to anybody who is, a matter of interest to the police or law | :22:02. | :22:08. | |
enforcement, there are numbdr of powers and measures that ard | :22:09. | :22:10. | |
available to the authorities in order to do with them. But those who | :22:11. | :22:15. | |
are planning terrorist attacks, those who seek to undertake attacks, | :22:16. | :22:22. | |
of course with those strong counterterrorism legislation that we | :22:23. | :22:25. | |
have here, I'm sure anybody would agree that the best place for a | :22:26. | :22:28. | |
terrorist is prosecuted and behind bars. That the secretary understand | :22:29. | :22:35. | |
that the Prime Minister would not get a consensus for increasdd | :22:36. | :22:39. | |
military intervention unless and until he comes to the public and to | :22:40. | :22:45. | |
this house with a plan involving increased diplomatic development, | :22:46. | :22:54. | |
and military options for thhs? When can we see some leadership? She says | :22:55. | :23:01. | |
that the UK will stand with France, when will this happen? I sax to | :23:02. | :23:09. | |
him, I found his question and little confusing. We do stand with friends, | :23:10. | :23:13. | |
and we have been standing alongside France. Would have been providing | :23:14. | :23:18. | |
grants with the assistance `nd cooperation in these matters, and we | :23:19. | :23:22. | |
continued to do so. Image of the issue of whether the UK will take | :23:23. | :23:26. | |
part in military action in relation to Syria, and the Prime Minhster is | :23:27. | :23:32. | |
being very clear if and when it comes to this house in relation to | :23:33. | :23:35. | |
such matters, it will be on the basis of a consensus. From Beirut to | :23:36. | :23:45. | |
Paris, not forgetting the explosion on the Russian MetroJet, it is clear | :23:46. | :23:50. | |
that Isil is looking to takd is barbaric battle beyond is hopeful | :23:51. | :23:55. | |
caliphate. Does my friend tdll us what steps are being taken to part | :23:56. | :24:01. | |
with the international commtnity, including Arabs states -- Arab | :24:02. | :24:03. | |
states to cut the funding to these terrorist groups? There is ` group | :24:04. | :24:15. | |
of how the forces that come together in Coalition in relation to these | :24:16. | :24:20. | |
and a whole variety of ways, including the work to countdr the | :24:21. | :24:23. | |
narrative that has been givdn by dais. The office is playing his part | :24:24. | :24:30. | |
in the Coalition of states with the single aim of the defeating Isil. | :24:31. | :24:41. | |
Top of the government and the back Lance. Asha fired round domd, a body | :24:42. | :24:46. | |
cell, they laid there still, pretending to be dead. Mr Speaker, | :24:47. | :24:51. | |
Michael's action saved all of their lives. And I'm sure the Homd | :24:52. | :24:56. | |
Secretary would join me in commending Michael's great `ction. I | :24:57. | :25:00. | |
also welcome with the Home Secretary said in relation to support the | :25:01. | :25:04. | |
government offered to British citizens who are caught up hn the | :25:05. | :25:08. | |
attacks of the aftermath. I will I see confirmation that the stpport | :25:09. | :25:11. | |
will also be extended to those who are temporarily resident in Paris, | :25:12. | :25:18. | |
such as my constituent Mich`el. And I first doing the honourabld lady | :25:19. | :25:21. | |
commending Michael buddy action that he took. It is unimaginable to have | :25:22. | :25:28. | |
been in that situation, with the shots around in so many bead people | :25:29. | :25:31. | |
being killed. The presence of mind that he showed was consider`ble | :25:32. | :25:37. | |
Saved two lives, and I can confirm to her that the support that is | :25:38. | :25:40. | |
available to British nation`ls who have been caught up in this, that | :25:41. | :25:42. | |
the extent of those. By Cheryl my right honourable friend | :25:43. | :25:53. | |
attitude to our intelligencd and security services. As long `s it | :25:54. | :25:57. | |
continues, and I hope that the British Government is advoc`ting | :25:58. | :26:02. | |
actively for reform to the dxtent that we can do, but as long as it | :26:03. | :26:05. | |
continues, our security is dependent at least in part of those on the | :26:06. | :26:11. | |
front line of Europe. What support is the British Government ghving to | :26:12. | :26:15. | |
the intelligence and security agencies on the front line | :26:16. | :26:21. | |
extremities of Europe to bedf up our own security? As I have indhcated in | :26:22. | :26:27. | |
response to a number of honourable members across the house, it is a | :26:28. | :26:34. | |
matter for those countries within, but the mimicking Kingdom does take | :26:35. | :26:42. | |
seriously the question of the eczema Boros, we have been working to | :26:43. | :26:44. | |
enhance the security of those external borders. We have also | :26:45. | :26:53. | |
provided resource particularly to Greece, but have also orderdd | :26:54. | :26:58. | |
resource to Italy in relation to being able to help them deal with | :26:59. | :27:00. | |
the number of people coming across the borders as part of the process | :27:01. | :27:05. | |
of strengthening that securhty at those external borders, which my | :27:06. | :27:09. | |
honourable friend has identhfied is so important. The financing of | :27:10. | :27:15. | |
terrorist organisations such as this is essential to our capacitx, can | :27:16. | :27:21. | |
the home secretary comment on what strategies are in place to combat | :27:22. | :27:26. | |
the financing of terrorist groups in the UK and internationally? Action | :27:27. | :27:31. | |
is taken at an international level to deal with the financing. What | :27:32. | :27:35. | |
happened in relation, is th`t they do take territory which enabled them | :27:36. | :27:43. | |
to access oil. More widely hn relation to the funding of | :27:44. | :27:47. | |
terrorism, we do take very seriously the whole question of the lhnks | :27:48. | :27:52. | |
between organised crime, supposed kidnapping and terrorism financing. | :27:53. | :27:57. | |
Working on an international level and not just UK. The people of | :27:58. | :28:04. | |
Yorkshire have been joined hn solidarity to the people and friends | :28:05. | :28:13. | |
over the week. Can I just added my voice to those who are to this | :28:14. | :28:17. | |
review of the availability of resourcing of armed rapid rdsponse | :28:18. | :28:21. | |
units and our regional towns and cities? Of course, the whold | :28:22. | :28:27. | |
question of the availabilitx and capability of a rapid response and | :28:28. | :28:31. | |
armed response vehicles is ` matter that we have looked at, and we have | :28:32. | :28:35. | |
over the last five years increased accountability in relation to on the | :28:36. | :28:39. | |
response of both the straightforward on the response, we are looking at | :28:40. | :28:46. | |
the whole question of where it is most important for capabilities to | :28:47. | :28:51. | |
sit, to ensure that they provide the greatest reassurance and security. I | :28:52. | :29:01. | |
welcome the reference to thd measures to this border sectrity and | :29:02. | :29:04. | |
aviation security, other spdcific corresponding plans to revidw | :29:05. | :29:12. | |
railway security and partictlar and of resources at the disposal of the | :29:13. | :29:19. | |
disposal of the transport police? In terms of the increased security | :29:20. | :29:22. | |
arrangements that have been put in place since the attacks in Paris, | :29:23. | :29:26. | |
that includes a security th`t is in place on the rail movements to the | :29:27. | :29:30. | |
continent, this has been a consensus with the French authorities, who are | :29:31. | :29:40. | |
very keen that they resort rail travel, with United Kingdom. We do | :29:41. | :29:44. | |
of cores on a regular basis to look at the capabilities of the British | :29:45. | :29:49. | |
transport police, and indeed as part of the exercise I said earlher, | :29:50. | :29:56. | |
looking over the last two ydars at capabilities, the capabilithes in | :29:57. | :30:02. | |
this area of British transport has increased. Vital to upholding values | :30:03. | :30:08. | |
of freedom and liberty, our masters of the source and the upcomhng hours | :30:09. | :30:13. | |
Bill, of course and there mtst be examined thoroughly, the johnt | :30:14. | :30:19. | |
committee will be meeting for the very first time. May ask thd | :30:20. | :30:23. | |
secretary what much as she was today to the colleagues serving on that | :30:24. | :30:26. | |
committee? I think the messds I would send out is that this is | :30:27. | :30:29. | |
insignificant bill. It is ilportant bill. I think it is crucial that the | :30:30. | :30:37. | |
scrutiny that it requires, `nd I look forward to the report that will | :30:38. | :30:42. | |
come from the scrutiny commhttee, and I commend my honourable friend | :30:43. | :30:45. | |
and others for agreeing to serve on what I've think will be a vdry | :30:46. | :30:48. | |
important and need to do thhs piece of work. I have privilege to have | :30:49. | :30:59. | |
been invited to speak at thd Muslim community peace conference `nd | :31:00. | :31:02. | |
Scotland on Saturday. Not only did they still... They raise thousands | :31:03. | :31:12. | |
of pounds, after the events in Paris, it was condemned by `ll | :31:13. | :31:17. | |
attendees. They are peace loving team. He they believed | :31:18. | :31:23. | |
wholeheartedly in a peaceful solutions to all matters, it is very | :31:24. | :31:26. | |
sad that in today's world, ` minority of Muslims, have a horrible | :31:27. | :31:38. | |
image of Islam. They want to promote freedom, equality, and thesd. They | :31:39. | :31:42. | |
have a love for all and hatred for nine. They want to try to lhve by | :31:43. | :31:52. | |
that motto. A few months ago I had the leisure of attending a leeting, | :31:53. | :31:59. | |
I met on a matter occasion. The honourable Lady is right, they are | :32:00. | :32:06. | |
very good in terms of not jtst what they live by but the practice that | :32:07. | :32:11. | |
they put those values into practice in their local communities. Thank | :32:12. | :32:15. | |
you Mr Speaker, it is quite clear that as a country we face a growing | :32:16. | :32:24. | |
contention of being a welcoling for those coming from Syria and our | :32:25. | :32:29. | |
safety and security. Said Friday we are very concerned about thhs | :32:30. | :32:34. | |
issue. Can the home Secretary reassure my constituents and the | :32:35. | :32:37. | |
country that the safety and security of our own people remain thhs | :32:38. | :32:40. | |
government number one priorhty and that will not be the safety and | :32:41. | :32:43. | |
security of our own people remain this government number one priority | :32:44. | :32:46. | |
and that one not been compromised I can get my honourable friend at the | :32:47. | :32:50. | |
safety and security of people in the UK is our number one priority. But | :32:51. | :32:54. | |
that is not incompetent with our desire to welcome people into the | :32:55. | :33:01. | |
kingdom who have been displ`ced by the competent in serious. Wd have | :33:02. | :33:06. | |
security measures in place, to provide proper security checks for | :33:07. | :33:09. | |
those attendees who are comhng from Syria into the United Kingdom. I | :33:10. | :33:13. | |
think it's right that we do so, and in doing so, we can work to keep the | :33:14. | :33:18. | |
people you're safe and secure but also provide that protection to a | :33:19. | :33:21. | |
number of people who have fled from the conflict in serious. Th`t's | :33:22. | :33:25. | |
serious. We know from experience and of | :33:26. | :33:39. | |
France, and in Denmark and dlsewhere that often, people who commht these | :33:40. | :33:44. | |
atrocities have served time in prison and I am not convincdd that | :33:45. | :33:50. | |
the people who run our presdnt know as much or understand radic`lisation | :33:51. | :33:54. | |
or indeed the opportunity for de-radicalization into prison as | :33:55. | :34:00. | |
they possibly could, how confident is she that we are doing on that we | :34:01. | :34:04. | |
can do with our presence to prevent radicalisation? First of all, I | :34:05. | :34:10. | |
would say that of course thd prevent duty that we have introduced those | :34:11. | :34:16. | |
cover prisons as well as other public institutions. The right | :34:17. | :34:18. | |
honourable friend the Secretary of State for Justice, has requhred with | :34:19. | :34:24. | |
he came into his post a revhew of the provision dealing with | :34:25. | :34:28. | |
radicalisation and prisons that review has been yet to be rdported. | :34:29. | :34:35. | |
It is ongoing to look at wh`t is happening and prisons, my rhght | :34:36. | :34:38. | |
honourable friend security linister will be meeting with the prdsent | :34:39. | :34:41. | |
ministers soon to talk about these issues. We do recognise that we did | :34:42. | :34:45. | |
it to look at what's happenhng in prisons and ensure that we `re | :34:46. | :34:50. | |
taking every step possible to reduce the likelihood of potential for | :34:51. | :34:56. | |
radical addition to take pl`ce. Thank you Mr Speaker, I was | :34:57. | :35:01. | |
delighted to be able to join many of my cousins residence and Sussex If | :35:02. | :35:10. | |
we had a similar attack herd in the UK, with my right honourabld friend | :35:11. | :35:13. | |
agree with me that our response would be to defeat them at the Iraq | :35:14. | :35:20. | |
and Syrian border. And also continuing our daily way of life as | :35:21. | :35:25. | |
well full appreciation that we live in a free democratic societx? I | :35:26. | :35:32. | |
welcome the fact that my honourable friend joined his constituents for a | :35:33. | :35:40. | |
minute of silence. I enjoyed the French ambassador at the Frdnch | :35:41. | :35:44. | |
Embassy for a minute of sildnce is warning. The point that my | :35:45. | :35:47. | |
honourable friend makes abott our way of life is crucial I thhnk. If | :35:48. | :35:51. | |
we change our way of life, hf we stop doing the things that we | :35:52. | :35:54. | |
normally do, then the terrorists have won. They want to divide us and | :35:55. | :35:59. | |
attack the very way of life that we have, it is important that we | :36:00. | :36:04. | |
continue with. Over the weekend a number of constituents, and Whee | :36:05. | :36:10. | |
contacted me about the adeqtacy of security, which is a major route | :36:11. | :36:16. | |
into the United Kingdom forl Northern Europe, particularly from | :36:17. | :36:21. | |
Belgium. I wonder at the secretary what check at the adequacy of | :36:22. | :36:26. | |
security arrangements? We are looking at the security arr`ngements | :36:27. | :36:29. | |
for all of our ports. I'm vdry happy to take away the point that she has | :36:30. | :36:33. | |
made, and she has any specific concerns that she is able to pass on | :36:34. | :36:40. | |
to the home office, please do so. While I do welcome the fundhng | :36:41. | :36:43. | |
announcement that has been lade today, it is clear that our police | :36:44. | :36:48. | |
officers are the nations front line on the ground, for response and | :36:49. | :36:52. | |
protection against these barbaric individual. What the home sdcretary | :36:53. | :36:56. | |
make the strongest possible case as part of his spending review that the | :36:57. | :37:00. | |
police should be protected? I can absolutely assure my honour`ble | :37:01. | :37:04. | |
friend that I do of course discuss these matters and make it vdry clear | :37:05. | :37:10. | |
that police play an important role in the life of our nation. Not just | :37:11. | :37:15. | |
in relation to the sort of latters, but of course as I have indhcated | :37:16. | :37:21. | |
earlier, Grant has been protected and it is also the case that there | :37:22. | :37:29. | |
are, changes the number of police forces can make which would enable | :37:30. | :37:33. | |
them to make savings and whdn not affect their ability to respond to | :37:34. | :37:38. | |
matters such as this. The tragic events over the weekend, I welcome | :37:39. | :37:54. | |
the home Secretary of State met -- statement. The government concerns | :37:55. | :37:59. | |
and putting our own bench, they haven't disagreed with me that there | :38:00. | :38:04. | |
should be a greater investmdnt in a police security and measures. And | :38:05. | :38:11. | |
will be far more productive than wasting ?157 billion. I say to the | :38:12. | :38:20. | |
ombudsman that he cannot st`nd up and say that would need to look at | :38:21. | :38:25. | |
the security of this countrx and then say that we should be scrapping | :38:26. | :38:32. | |
Trident. We now come to backbench business. Point of order. I rise to | :38:33. | :38:42. | |
rate a important constituency matter that took place in my consthtuency | :38:43. | :38:47. | |
last Friday between the Minhstry of defence, the defence contractor and | :38:48. | :38:52. | |
the local interest. This is in the light of announcement that were made | :38:53. | :39:01. | |
by the MOD, I was a the Minhster that there would be be a public | :39:02. | :39:06. | |
consultation. That has not happened. I have run to the Secretary of State | :39:07. | :39:10. | |
and ask them to intervene, with your guidance I will like the Secretary | :39:11. | :39:14. | |
of State to make a statement on what has happened, in particular what I | :39:15. | :39:17. | |
am asking is that these events should be put on hold and lhght of a | :39:18. | :39:23. | |
economic matter, and look at these matters in the correct manndr. I did | :39:24. | :39:31. | |
not hear with Secretary of State the ombudsman was referring the defence. | :39:32. | :39:41. | |
He has made his point, it would have been heard by residences of the | :39:42. | :39:45. | |
government sitting on the treasury bench. They will choose how to | :39:46. | :39:50. | |
respond, there are parliamentary devices which will enable the | :39:51. | :39:54. | |
unobserved men to pursue thhs matter if not thoroughly to his | :39:55. | :39:59. | |
satisfaction. At any rate to ensure that he has and the concern of every | :40:00. | :40:03. | |
term. We will leave it therd for today. If there are no further | :40:04. | :40:09. | |
points of orders. We do now come to backbench business. And the first | :40:10. | :40:12. | |
instance to the motion of mdmbership on the UK delegation to the | :40:13. | :40:15. | |
Parliamentary assembly of the Council of Europe. I informdd the | :40:16. | :40:22. | |
house, that I have selected the manuscript amendment and it be | :40:23. | :40:31. | |
tabled by the honourable gentleman, who is indeed in his place of. To | :40:32. | :40:38. | |
move the motion, I call Mr Owen Paterson is. Thank you Mr Speaker. | :40:39. | :40:43. | |
It gives me great pleasure to move this motion. After the horrors of | :40:44. | :40:48. | |
the weekend, there were manx looking today wondering why we are | :40:49. | :40:54. | |
discussing this issue. Actu`lly I think it is highly appropri`te | :40:55. | :40:58. | |
because the Council of Europe concerns itself with the conduct of | :40:59. | :41:03. | |
47 different countries concdrning human rights, democracy, and human | :41:04. | :41:07. | |
law. The high Argosy of this debate is the tussle between the executive | :41:08. | :41:12. | |
and the legislative. Who re`lly calls the shots? May I begin by | :41:13. | :41:16. | |
thanking the backbench business committee for enabling this debate | :41:17. | :41:22. | |
to take place. With a very short notice, we are six months ott of the | :41:23. | :41:25. | |
election Mr Speaker, and I `m sad to report that UK membership of the | :41:26. | :41:30. | |
delegation for the promontory assembly has lapsed. It last on the | :41:31. | :41:35. | |
7th of November could we do not provide a delegation within six | :41:36. | :41:39. | |
months of our general electhon. The next chance occurs when the assembly | :41:40. | :41:46. | |
standing committee meets and Sophia on the 27th of November. Thd | :41:47. | :41:52. | |
redundancy of having this ddbate, and ensuring that we do comd up with | :41:53. | :41:56. | |
a delegation which is electdd by the appropriate methods. I hope this | :41:57. | :42:02. | |
motion is it by the House today it will enable the necessary to take | :42:03. | :42:07. | |
place so that that timetabld can be kept. I say necessary, becatse most | :42:08. | :42:13. | |
parties in this house, with representation and the asselbly | :42:14. | :42:15. | |
already choose their members democratically on a similar basis to | :42:16. | :42:20. | |
choosing members in departmdntal select committees. This has | :42:21. | :42:25. | |
attracted widespread support across the House. There are five chairman | :42:26. | :42:30. | |
of select committees. The chairman of the 1922 committee, of the back | :42:31. | :42:36. | |
benches as well as a former conservative... What my honourable | :42:37. | :42:42. | |
friend give way, on that very point, I understand that our honourable | :42:43. | :42:49. | |
friend the member is actually withdrawing his name from the first | :42:50. | :42:57. | |
motion tabled in his name, ` name of another honourable colleagud | :42:58. | :43:04. | |
amendment be which is being selected, would be amendment to | :43:05. | :43:11. | |
reflect a good old-fashioned British compromise that should be whdely | :43:12. | :43:14. | |
welcomed on both sides of the chamber? I am happy to stand to the | :43:15. | :43:23. | |
correction. I got off a aeroplane from France a couple of hours ago | :43:24. | :43:27. | |
and learned about this amendment but I think actually has some | :43:28. | :43:30. | |
interesting merits. I will wait for my honourable friend to movd his | :43:31. | :43:35. | |
amendment, and explain how hn my work in practice. . Do I take it | :43:36. | :43:44. | |
from his earliest remarks, that those previous observing melbers had | :43:45. | :43:48. | |
been told that they will not be put back in the committee, no stbstitute | :43:49. | :43:53. | |
means have get them put forward which if true, would suggest that it | :43:54. | :43:57. | |
is more about removing cert`in people than there are not bding of | :43:58. | :44:03. | |
room for them to serve again? My honourable friend makes a good | :44:04. | :44:06. | |
point. That is April, because somebody stood down and somd words | :44:07. | :44:16. | |
taken off. The motion should also be helpful to the government bdcause it | :44:17. | :44:19. | |
will establish beyond doubt, that all new members of the new | :44:20. | :44:24. | |
delegation to the Parliamentary assembly of Europe, will be chosen | :44:25. | :44:28. | |
by parliament and not by thd government. The government hs | :44:29. | :44:31. | |
already represented in the Council of Europe on the committee of | :44:32. | :44:35. | |
ministers. That is a governlental decision making body of the 47 | :44:36. | :44:40. | |
member countries. The role of the Parliamentary assembly, is ` | :44:41. | :44:45. | |
departmental assembly of thhs house. To hold them accountable for the | :44:46. | :44:49. | |
decisions in relation to hulan rights, democracy and human law | :44:50. | :44:54. | |
These are the core competencies of the Council of Europe that H touched | :44:55. | :44:58. | |
on in my opening sentences. This house has only relatively bdgun | :44:59. | :45:06. | |
selecting and time. The main catalyst for the main selection was | :45:07. | :45:14. | |
for both persuasions to exclude those who criticise their own party. | :45:15. | :45:19. | |
This happened at the hand of a labour government. And at the hands | :45:20. | :45:26. | |
of the conservative governmdnt. All government involvement and | :45:27. | :45:29. | |
appointing members of the conservative government. All | :45:30. | :45:30. | |
government involvement and appointing members has ended. Is | :45:31. | :45:38. | |
also be for the Council of Durope. The Labour Party has elected members | :45:39. | :45:42. | |
why the conservative party hs raising on an informal basis and | :45:43. | :45:46. | |
those who wish to be on the assembly or accommodated without excdption | :45:47. | :45:50. | |
and those who are already on the assembly was to be reappointed | :45:51. | :45:58. | |
Lawlor reappointed. On that point, is that really unfortunate `spect of | :45:59. | :46:05. | |
the whole affair, that is that those members who have been honourable | :46:06. | :46:07. | |
members who have been replaced, testified that they have bedn | :46:08. | :46:11. | |
replaced because of how thex've voted against the government when it | :46:12. | :46:17. | |
came to search matters -- stch. That has got to be wrong. That is the | :46:18. | :46:21. | |
central issue that we need to address. Sadly come and he hs | :46:22. | :46:29. | |
absolutely right. I will cole to that point in a few moments. I | :46:30. | :46:34. | |
respect him terribly much. H'm very grateful to my honourable friend. I | :46:35. | :46:40. | |
do not think that people out there will see this as being somewhat | :46:41. | :46:45. | |
self-indulgent. . I think that is the interesting point, I totched on | :46:46. | :46:53. | |
in my very opening remarks. I have discovered from France myself, | :46:54. | :46:56. | |
people will wonder why we are discussing this issue. But the home | :46:57. | :47:01. | |
Secretary is spot on. The mood I got in France over the Beacon w`s a | :47:02. | :47:04. | |
determination to carry on normal business and not be knocked off | :47:05. | :47:08. | |
course. She is quite right to say that they should go ahead, H think | :47:09. | :47:12. | |
we are quite right to go ahdad with a backbench motion which was | :47:13. | :47:15. | |
discussed by the backbench committee only last Thursday, and which has | :47:16. | :47:21. | |
been decided upon. We have had a good crack on the horrors of the | :47:22. | :47:22. | |
weekend, and something fundamental was the people | :47:23. | :47:28. | |
do not leave it. Who called the shots? Is that the legislator or the | :47:29. | :47:32. | |
executive? There is a battld between the two. The tussle continuds. Our | :47:33. | :47:44. | |
reply and not concede, a Parliament which can stand up to the front | :47:45. | :47:48. | |
benches, is a parliament whdre backbenchers can actually exercise | :47:49. | :47:51. | |
their rights, is a Parliament which will answer some of the verx | :47:52. | :47:55. | |
important questions that have risen over the weekend far later than what | :47:56. | :48:02. | |
has been comprised of yes mdn and women. I think that was verx well | :48:03. | :48:09. | |
put. Of the 12 conservative members of the PAC from the House of | :48:10. | :48:12. | |
Commons, and the last Parli`ment, for retired to others said that they | :48:13. | :48:18. | |
did not wish to continue as members, the remaining six said they | :48:19. | :48:23. | |
wish to be reappointed. The President had no reason to believe | :48:24. | :48:26. | |
that this would not have bedn. As we now have 13 members, this would have | :48:27. | :48:34. | |
still left room for seven editions. At the end of October howevdr, the | :48:35. | :48:38. | |
government so that it would not reappointed three of those six, who | :48:39. | :48:43. | |
was to be reappointed. This was because they voted in Septelber in | :48:44. | :48:49. | |
support of retaining for thd EU referendum. This was confirled in | :48:50. | :48:56. | |
the daily telegram, which rdported Downing Street sources as s`ying | :48:57. | :49:01. | |
that the trio had a paid thd price for rebelling against the | :49:02. | :49:05. | |
government. Such a direct interference by the governmdnt in | :49:06. | :49:12. | |
the apartment, with the previous convention in the UK it is `lso | :49:13. | :49:16. | |
against the statue of the Council of Europe. Article 25 A of the statue | :49:17. | :49:23. | |
of the Council of Europe saxs that the appointment or election should | :49:24. | :49:26. | |
be by Parliament and not by government. As the member qtite | :49:27. | :49:32. | |
rightly and accurately said in the urgent question on the 3rd of | :49:33. | :49:38. | |
November, he calls his Article 5 a correctly, "the assembly should | :49:39. | :49:42. | |
consist of representatives of each member elected by its Parli`ment for | :49:43. | :49:47. | |
members thereof, or appointdd from among members of that parli`ment in | :49:48. | :49:50. | |
such a manner as it shall ddcide those quotes the prime Minister of | :49:51. | :49:59. | |
role isn't that for leave formal one. He should consult the parties, | :50:00. | :50:06. | |
this time there full consultation with the opposition and the other | :50:07. | :50:11. | |
parties, but not with the conservative party outside of the | :50:12. | :50:15. | |
government. Why was there no consultation with the chairlan of | :50:16. | :50:19. | |
the to committee of backbenchers? The three members were backdd by the | :50:20. | :50:27. | |
opinion of the commission, the political constitutional reform | :50:28. | :50:32. | |
committee and also by a majority of this house and a vote on thd 7th of | :50:33. | :50:37. | |
September, by penalizing thd three, the government seems to be showing | :50:38. | :50:41. | |
far from respecting the work decisions of the house, it | :50:42. | :50:48. | |
presented. It is inappropri`te to choose this particular issud as the | :50:49. | :50:54. | |
Council of Europe set up thd commission of the by its full name | :50:55. | :50:59. | |
of the European commission for democracy through Law, this is a | :51:00. | :51:04. | |
body on constitutional mattdrs. It has ruled on the referendums, an | :51:05. | :51:10. | |
analysis of its output which is considerable and indicates that the | :51:11. | :51:16. | |
EU referendum was clearly in breach of a European commission | :51:17. | :51:21. | |
guidelines. Specifically, wd can refer to its guidelines as | :51:22. | :51:24. | |
Constitution referendums for national level. It was publhshed in | :51:25. | :51:34. | |
2001 of the 47th plenary. There a likely states however the rdgional | :51:35. | :51:37. | |
authorities must not influence the outcome of the bulb by excessive | :51:38. | :51:42. | |
one-sided campaigning. The tse of public funds for campaigning must be | :51:43. | :51:53. | |
prohibited. And to the other five, the commission was booked on these | :51:54. | :51:57. | |
guidelines issuing legal rules on European states. If you takd | :51:58. | :52:06. | |
Ireland, Portugal are required, others are to provide citizdns with | :52:07. | :52:13. | |
information. And the Russian Federation has neutrality rtles The | :52:14. | :52:16. | |
UK government was out of line and trying to a rules. The reason the | :52:17. | :52:26. | |
judges to the European Court, I will give way. What he agree that the | :52:27. | :52:33. | |
Council of Europe stand for democracy, human rights, and the law | :52:34. | :52:36. | |
is a bit strange that the government should punish someone for exercising | :52:37. | :52:43. | |
freedom to speak, freedom of expression, because you say which to | :52:44. | :52:47. | |
think and vote that way you can no longer go to an Institute and | :52:48. | :52:53. | |
champion those principles? He is absolutely right, it is even more | :52:54. | :52:59. | |
perverse that this has gone on for decades, and is promoting the issue | :53:00. | :53:02. | |
of neutrality by governments and referendum. The judges of the | :53:03. | :53:09. | |
European Court of human rights are important for a nonrenewabld term of | :53:10. | :53:13. | |
seven years to protect their independent. You have to ask our | :53:14. | :53:17. | |
members of the PAC from the government party, as there hs a | :53:18. | :53:24. | |
threat that their appointment will not be renewed as they step out of | :53:25. | :53:28. | |
line by the governments which is? This issue goes to the heart of | :53:29. | :53:31. | |
separation of parties that `t the root of this whole debate, what | :53:32. | :53:37. | |
could the government have to fear interest in the conservativd | :53:38. | :53:39. | |
backbench is to elect conservative representatives of the Parlhamentary | :53:40. | :53:42. | |
assembly as they do for dep`rtmental select committees? I thank ly | :53:43. | :53:48. | |
honourable friend for giving way, I was that to two raised a pohnt of | :53:49. | :53:51. | |
order, but here's not have to go to Europe to get the guy balance on | :53:52. | :53:57. | |
this. Pays 255, it says the following" having a tendencx to | :53:58. | :54:10. | |
impair independence and eight the performance of a duty may bd treated | :54:11. | :54:19. | |
as content". They would to `s the consent of Parliament. Well I am | :54:20. | :54:24. | |
grateful for my honourable friend, he makes a perfect point. I think it | :54:25. | :54:28. | |
is also particularly relevant when you consider two characters Mr | :54:29. | :54:35. | |
Speaker, all of who our perspective, assiduous membdrs of | :54:36. | :54:40. | |
this house. This member has been on this body for ten years, he is the | :54:41. | :54:45. | |
leader of the European conservative, it is group of 70 | :54:46. | :54:48. | |
different countries, he sits on the presidential committee which has | :54:49. | :54:53. | |
five group leaders. My right honourable friend, she is hdre as | :54:54. | :55:00. | |
Secretary of State for Wales, she guided of referendum so skillfully | :55:01. | :55:07. | |
that none of us even noticed. She is the vice-chairman of the political | :55:08. | :55:12. | |
committee. My honourable frhend of who sits on the legal affairs | :55:13. | :55:17. | |
committee, as far as I see, has done no more than the most splendid work, | :55:18. | :55:23. | |
highlighting the horrific persecution of centuries-old | :55:24. | :55:25. | |
Christian communities in thd Middle East. Can we take it from this, | :55:26. | :55:33. | |
given the evidence and integrity of all three honourable and right | :55:34. | :55:36. | |
honourable members, that thdre have been no question of any of them | :55:37. | :55:40. | |
having been informed by the government, that their prevhous | :55:41. | :55:45. | |
service on this body, was an deficient? No. I think they seem to | :55:46. | :55:54. | |
be completely impeccable and their behaviour. They represent wdll on | :55:55. | :56:03. | |
this body. They hold the 47 different governments to account. By | :56:04. | :56:06. | |
supporting this motion is evening, the House will able to tell that the | :56:07. | :56:14. | |
government the way is not to seek control through patronage btt to win | :56:15. | :56:19. | |
political arguments of perstasion. We have a good ally in this, the | :56:20. | :56:24. | |
house will be endorsing, thd right honourable member for Whitndy, who | :56:25. | :56:29. | |
asked with her in the opposhte in the opposite into the line gave a | :56:30. | :56:31. | |
speech called fixing broken politics. If he -- he said that if | :56:32. | :56:41. | |
we are serious about preserving power for the powerless, yot have to | :56:42. | :56:45. | |
probably hold the government to account on behalf of voters. He | :56:46. | :56:48. | |
specifically said MPs should be more independent, so select commhttee | :56:49. | :56:56. | |
members should be selected by backbenchers and not appointed by | :56:57. | :57:02. | |
whipped. He called for parlhament to be a real engine of account`bility | :57:03. | :57:06. | |
not just a creature of the executive. | :57:07. | :57:17. | |
And he introduced it, and mdntioned on the MMP people that signdd into | :57:18. | :57:22. | |
motion, he forgot to mention that the former secretary of state is | :57:23. | :57:25. | |
proposing the motion. When he confirmed to me, that the | :57:26. | :57:29. | |
Conservative Party manifesto that we all stood on, said that we would | :57:30. | :57:34. | |
increase and is parliamentary reform in this session was yellow hndeed. | :57:35. | :57:39. | |
Out and we all stood on a platform. But would be one with the Prime | :57:40. | :57:43. | |
Minister,, gone back to his 200 space. -- speech. I really believe | :57:44. | :57:53. | |
this is unfinished business. It is absolutely right that we dods not | :57:54. | :58:00. | |
want members of select commhttees, it is absolutely right that we | :58:01. | :58:06. | |
should call today that this house of points if representatives to this | :58:07. | :58:12. | |
body, which represents 47 dhfferent parliaments of 47 different | :58:13. | :58:18. | |
governments into account. As on the order paper. That I am todax in | :58:19. | :58:27. | |
supporting the Honorable melber for North Rusher ended 20 years that he | :58:28. | :58:34. | |
has been here, 20 years I h`ve been here, I think this is is thd first | :58:35. | :58:38. | |
occasion that we have been `n agreement on a subject. But he is | :58:39. | :58:43. | |
absolutely right. What it is at stake here is that the conthnual | :58:44. | :58:47. | |
reform of Parliament and thd movement of power from the dxecutive | :58:48. | :58:57. | |
to Parliament SL. I... I was on the and 1997, I am not seeking | :58:58. | :59:01. | |
reappointment this time for various reasons, but I do know very well the | :59:02. | :59:08. | |
work of the three members involved, I was present when they werd first | :59:09. | :59:13. | |
elected. And watched with admiration, there were, thehr | :59:14. | :59:18. | |
diligence on the Council of Europe. The only time that they comlitted | :59:19. | :59:23. | |
was that they were caught in possession of independent ideas | :59:24. | :59:30. | |
Which, as far as the executhve is concerned, is a very serious | :59:31. | :59:34. | |
offence. And deserves expulsion from this body. There is another reason, | :59:35. | :59:44. | |
I believe we should not go `lone motion, -- along, I think it is an | :59:45. | :59:49. | |
outrage and a step backward for us as a parliament, because thdre has | :59:50. | :59:57. | |
been progress, uncertain in order to reform Parliament. It is thd most | :59:58. | :00:02. | |
serious test that we have. @fter the screaming nightmare of the dxpenses | :00:03. | :00:08. | |
scandal, we have a decade-long task of trying to win back public | :00:09. | :00:15. | |
respect. For us as members of Parliament. I believe that when | :00:16. | :00:19. | |
appointing people to serve on a body of such importance in international | :00:20. | :00:26. | |
body is absolutely by. We do it in the most democratic way as possible. | :00:27. | :00:31. | |
This has not happened with the conservative delegation. Thdre is | :00:32. | :00:36. | |
another reason like to see ts look at the way that we can or c`nnot the | :00:37. | :00:41. | |
delegation. I believe that we are slipping backwards in our | :00:42. | :00:48. | |
determination to take a full line on those who offended in an egregious | :00:49. | :00:56. | |
matter, with its precious scandal broke out, I see someone behng | :00:57. | :01:01. | |
ennobled in the House of Lords who have won the most unlikely claims | :01:02. | :01:05. | |
that will put in. I will mention what it was. Also have another issue | :01:06. | :01:13. | |
in the person that is likelx to be, or recommended for appointmdnt and a | :01:14. | :01:16. | |
place of our three honourable friends. Is someone considered by | :01:17. | :01:24. | |
the standards committee in the House of Lords to have offended against | :01:25. | :01:29. | |
their rules there. It was two cases, one in 2012 and one in 2410. The | :01:30. | :01:34. | |
2041 was because the person involved had forgotten that he has shgned an | :01:35. | :01:40. | |
agreement with the Cayman Islands to lobby for them the honourable | :01:41. | :01:50. | |
gentleman, the experience mdmber, quite sure that he will not be using | :01:51. | :01:56. | |
the very narrow terms of thhs motion to talk about the history of any | :01:57. | :02:05. | |
particular person. Of coursd Madam Deputy Speaker. I believe at this | :02:06. | :02:11. | |
appointment is of such importance, and a row on the Council of Europe | :02:12. | :02:16. | |
has been very humble one ovdr this long period of his history, the | :02:17. | :02:19. | |
reputation of the British mdmbers has always been high and we often | :02:20. | :02:25. | |
have set a fine example to other countries. The console of your have | :02:26. | :02:29. | |
been very influential, parthcularly in today's with the .net want to | :02:30. | :02:36. | |
come and become a part of your, that the first at was to become ` step of | :02:37. | :02:41. | |
the Council of Europe. We insisted on to make sure that that they were | :02:42. | :02:47. | |
brought up to the existing standards that we accept who I almost a lower | :02:48. | :02:51. | |
street Europe with four. Were taken on by the former of this cotntry. It | :02:52. | :02:57. | |
is a great achievement that. And are suffering at the moment bec`use the | :02:58. | :03:04. | |
issue that is taken up, that is a rival institution in the EU that is | :03:05. | :03:10. | |
performing the same task, btt has greatly enhanced finances to the | :03:11. | :03:16. | |
Council of Europe. I believd we must and refuse to accept the decision | :03:17. | :03:20. | |
that has been handed down to us by government. And can be done in the | :03:21. | :03:25. | |
name of the Prime Minister, but as we all know and distinct thd Prime | :03:26. | :03:31. | |
Minister is not a ball, it hs the webs. In practical circumst`nces, it | :03:32. | :03:37. | |
is the webs that are doing this They should be to be defined by this | :03:38. | :03:41. | |
house and the name of reforl, and in the name of increasing the power of | :03:42. | :03:54. | |
Parliament over the executive. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. I'm | :03:55. | :03:59. | |
pleased to have an opportunhty to move... It was in 2009, that he and | :04:00. | :04:09. | |
I were elected by respectivd parties to assist him what began as the | :04:10. | :04:12. | |
right committee, the committee on voluntary reform. Which was | :04:13. | :04:19. | |
responsible for recommending Backbench Business Committed, the | :04:20. | :04:23. | |
body which is enabled this debate to be tabled. And the election of a | :04:24. | :04:27. | |
chance and the members of sdlect committees. As has been alltded to | :04:28. | :04:34. | |
in previous interventions, the election of select committeds became | :04:35. | :04:43. | |
about at a time when the parliament was perhaps at its lows and. Held in | :04:44. | :04:49. | |
the disdain by the public and the media, admired -- called by the | :04:50. | :04:58. | |
expenses scandal. Suggest that it was the election of select | :04:59. | :05:01. | |
committees, more than anythhng else, that has helped to begin thd process | :05:02. | :05:07. | |
of rebuilding the reputation of this house. I think select committees, | :05:08. | :05:12. | |
what their elected chairs, with members elected by the partx groups, | :05:13. | :05:19. | |
have grown in stature. I thhnk in saying those committees of the House | :05:20. | :05:23. | |
grow in stature in that way, at the House itself also benefits. So, and | :05:24. | :05:32. | |
my brief remarks, I do not wish to concentrate on the reasons why we're | :05:33. | :05:36. | |
having this debate now. I do not want to build on the magistdrial | :05:37. | :05:42. | |
introductions of my right honourable friend gave looking about the work | :05:43. | :05:49. | |
of the Council of Europe. And the rules and the precedents for which | :05:50. | :05:54. | |
soaps around the. The region that has tabled this amendment is that | :05:55. | :06:02. | |
while I absolutely cling to the belief that this House should regard | :06:03. | :06:07. | |
itself as being sufficientlx important, sufficiently cap`ble and | :06:08. | :06:13. | |
worthwhile, that it should regard it as obvious that the House should | :06:14. | :06:20. | |
choose its own represents, without select committees, national bodies, | :06:21. | :06:25. | |
such at the elementary asselbly of the Council of Europe. I clhng to | :06:26. | :06:30. | |
that belief absolutely. I'm also aware of the dilemma that colleagues | :06:31. | :06:38. | |
might be placed in by the thmetable envisioned in the motion th`t was | :06:39. | :06:44. | |
before us. Amendment B is an attempt to resolve this difficulty. Interval | :06:45. | :06:51. | |
serves the principal of election. And preserve the principle of the | :06:52. | :06:58. | |
South which issues that I rdpresent this is of the Council of Etrope | :06:59. | :07:04. | |
should not be chosen by the executive, and that we should choose | :07:05. | :07:09. | |
them, let them in the same way that we elect select committees hn the | :07:10. | :07:14. | |
South. It also seeks to accommodate the needs of the timetable for | :07:15. | :07:20. | |
appointment to the Council of Europe, set up by my right | :07:21. | :07:24. | |
honourable friend in his opdning remarks. The timetable, if the | :07:25. | :07:30. | |
motion were to pass, would leave us with a very short window within | :07:31. | :07:34. | |
which to organise elections, and make sure the right choices but by | :07:35. | :07:42. | |
members of this house beford the formal representation in thd | :07:43. | :07:49. | |
assembly. Wham MNB does it deserve the principal -- what a member be, | :07:50. | :07:55. | |
and recommended that would `n enteral period. That those that | :07:56. | :07:58. | |
those are being proposed at the moment, by the government, to go | :07:59. | :08:04. | |
forward on the assembly, wotld still go forward. They were there be | :08:05. | :08:10. | |
comfortably the deadline, which I think is the 27th of Novembdr for | :08:11. | :08:18. | |
the delegation to be in place. And get we would also have an | :08:19. | :08:23. | |
expectation of elections to take place before the beginning of the | :08:24. | :08:29. | |
January 2016 pilot session. It would give us a reasonable time frame in | :08:30. | :08:34. | |
which to organise and hold those elections. Parliament session. I | :08:35. | :08:48. | |
hope my Honorable friend on the front bench will see it in that | :08:49. | :08:52. | |
light. I hope that the government will recognise that this is an | :08:53. | :08:56. | |
attempt, but to preserve an aborted person will which is held ddar by | :08:57. | :09:03. | |
many members of this house, but also the practicalities of the | :09:04. | :09:10. | |
appointment to the Parliamentary assembly can be accommodated. As has | :09:11. | :09:15. | |
been said already, the election of select committees in this house | :09:16. | :09:21. | |
isn't really new practice. Ht is something that had been called for | :09:22. | :09:27. | |
for many years, and only began in the last Parliament in 2010. You | :09:28. | :09:34. | |
would advocate returning now to a based system for appointing those | :09:35. | :09:39. | |
committees. If this motion, or the amendment, are adopted by this | :09:40. | :09:43. | |
house, then I suspect that the election of the UK delegation would | :09:44. | :09:53. | |
quickly come the norm to. This house is entirely of elected | :09:54. | :09:56. | |
representatives. It would strely be God is today they rejected the | :09:57. | :10:01. | |
principal that representatives should be elected. To support the | :10:02. | :10:06. | |
support the amendment would be an act of a decision that is bdcoming | :10:07. | :10:10. | |
more self-confident, more independent, and better abld to do | :10:11. | :10:19. | |
this job. Horizon of a membdr of the counsel for Europe. Many max think | :10:20. | :10:26. | |
it is strange that we're having this discussion in the long shadows of | :10:27. | :10:29. | |
the atrocities that we witndssed over the weekend. Meeting pdople may | :10:30. | :10:35. | |
think it looks like gazing `t the self-indulgent ways. Many pdople | :10:36. | :10:40. | |
would think that we should be talking about the clash between | :10:41. | :10:46. | |
liberty and security, the issue of light and love the lust, hatred and | :10:47. | :10:51. | |
darkness. In a sense, when one takes of the history of the Counchl of | :10:52. | :10:55. | |
Europe, it was actually born out of the clash of steel and fire of the | :10:56. | :11:00. | |
Second World War to champion democracy, human rights, and to | :11:01. | :11:09. | |
spread its wings across 47 nations, to champion those rights. Is right | :11:10. | :11:16. | |
that... And how we select, `nd what we are allowed to say, whild this be | :11:17. | :11:22. | |
regarded in the backlash th`t we find ourselves very trivial, the | :11:23. | :11:28. | |
situation is whether the government should be allowed to choose or | :11:29. | :11:33. | |
exclude members from the Cotncil for Europe, on the basis of how they are | :11:34. | :11:37. | |
with, or both, whatever that both may be. The members should not be | :11:38. | :11:45. | |
isolated. I do not agree with what they say on a variety of issues but | :11:46. | :11:50. | |
I would agree with their brhght to say it, thereby be wrong. -, their | :11:51. | :11:57. | |
right to be wrong. In this hssue, unlike some of the members hnvolved, | :11:58. | :12:03. | |
I am pro European. I will bd voting and campaigning for Britain to stay | :12:04. | :12:07. | |
in Europe. I do think is th`t in all our interests. I think some of our | :12:08. | :12:13. | |
members are sceptical, and the European. This is not reallx the | :12:14. | :12:18. | |
point that is being made. The argument about requiring thd | :12:19. | :12:21. | |
government should not have ` voice during the referendum, and the and | :12:22. | :12:25. | |
appoint one week via the prdsident said the of the European Unhon, many | :12:26. | :12:31. | |
seem to be absurd, it is about free speech, and in my view to bd wrong. | :12:32. | :12:38. | |
The arguments with great sincerity, and they believed him to be true. | :12:39. | :12:42. | |
The issue here is whether those people who feel strongly about the | :12:43. | :12:45. | |
issue and willing to put th`t forward and what they think and what | :12:46. | :12:48. | |
they say, what they told, should they be punished by the govdrnment? | :12:49. | :12:55. | |
To go to the people that ard allowed to go forward, talk about htman | :12:56. | :13:00. | |
rights, democracy, should they be filtered to just be yes womdn or men | :13:01. | :13:10. | |
for the government of the thme? And his position, if he has dond | :13:11. | :13:14. | |
something domestically that the Labour Party did not like, they | :13:15. | :13:20. | |
could not remove you. Removd him from the position. Isn't th`t the | :13:21. | :13:25. | |
crux of it? We need to have elected representatives, once electdd, they | :13:26. | :13:29. | |
must do what is right. And H be looking over their shoulders. About | :13:30. | :13:37. | |
to lie to make this obvious point that we on the side are alrdady | :13:38. | :13:40. | |
embracing those democratic principles, and trying to gdt the | :13:41. | :13:45. | |
dilution of democracy and the Conservative Party. I welcole the | :13:46. | :13:47. | |
opportunity to mention that. It is the case there is a free eldction | :13:48. | :13:54. | |
amongst the Labour Party, and we are meant to be going to the cotnsel of | :13:55. | :13:58. | |
your, not as representatives of the government, there are ministers to | :13:59. | :14:01. | |
do that job. But as parliamentarians. There is ` | :14:02. | :14:08. | |
difference of the dialogue going on, so we can just why don't we do | :14:09. | :14:12. | |
this and our part, and copolymer. And begin a campaign that though the | :14:13. | :14:17. | |
position of power, which max be conservative with a small scene in | :14:18. | :14:21. | |
terms of chains, or may not want to cross culturally in terms of policy, | :14:22. | :14:26. | |
these enable that to move forward in terms of freethinking, freedom of | :14:27. | :14:31. | |
expression, human rights, and new ideas. For a government herd and | :14:32. | :14:38. | |
elsewhere to constrain that, to be a duplication of the meetings of | :14:39. | :14:42. | |
government heads, what affect the the the object of the counsdl for | :14:43. | :14:47. | |
Europe in many respects. Strangely enough, my view is that somd of the | :14:48. | :14:51. | |
people we are talking about here, have been noticed that they are | :14:52. | :14:59. | |
often the difficult open-minded self opinionated people, but | :15:00. | :15:03. | |
actually want to put an exile and Strassburg. I take the people exiled | :15:04. | :15:11. | |
are making their contributions and a wider for him, regrouping and coming | :15:12. | :15:16. | |
back with their views stronger. I don't agree with the ideas | :15:17. | :15:21. | |
personally. But they clearlx, are using this as a punishment, and | :15:22. | :15:25. | |
public punishment to the back benches who would dare to h`ve the | :15:26. | :15:34. | |
enlightened -- enlightenment and thoughts of freedom of exprdssion | :15:35. | :15:37. | |
that other members have talked about. Without further ado, I'm | :15:38. | :15:50. | |
happy to support amendment be. I guess to declare an interest. For my | :15:51. | :15:58. | |
sins, either to be later detonated of the Parliamentary assembly | :15:59. | :16:01. | |
allegation for the Council of Europe. -- a delegation. I light do | :16:02. | :16:11. | |
bad than those speeds, but just give me five minutes. Either said that | :16:12. | :16:20. | |
far as they can see, no gain and a lot of grief and taking on job if I | :16:21. | :16:27. | |
do a. I was asked, and I have a tendency to do that I would do | :16:28. | :16:29. | |
something to the best of my abilities if I am asked, and that is | :16:30. | :16:33. | |
what I will do. I have some experience, 20 years in the chair, a | :16:34. | :16:40. | |
member of the children's panel. A couple of the days in the bhg chair | :16:41. | :16:45. | |
as well. With the help of friends, I am sure that we can create ` | :16:46. | :16:49. | |
satisfactory delegation, if we are allowed to do so. My person`l view | :16:50. | :16:57. | |
is that neither side is acttally covered the self-image glorx. I | :16:58. | :17:01. | |
certainly think the whips office made a pigs ear of it. I thhnk that | :17:02. | :17:12. | |
my friend, ignored Dennis Hdaley's first rule of Paul's mission, is | :17:13. | :17:17. | |
stop digging. It did actually make it harder for those that ard trying | :17:18. | :17:23. | |
to broker an agreement to gdt the movable object and forced together. | :17:24. | :17:33. | |
However, we are where we ard. So, as I will rather than anger, when I | :17:34. | :17:37. | |
have to say first to the right honourable gentleman to movd this | :17:38. | :17:43. | |
motion, had it gone through it will be a complete dogs breakfast that | :17:44. | :17:50. | |
will leave us in the mire. Ht was not thought to buy those who signed | :17:51. | :17:59. | |
a. When I telephoned the ch`irman of the 1922 committee, the you know | :18:00. | :18:04. | |
what this is going to do, hd was very candid and said no. We had a | :18:05. | :18:13. | |
conversation, the product to which is the amendment that is before you | :18:14. | :18:21. | |
today. I hope that the very least that... To go back to what the | :18:22. | :18:24. | |
effect that the motion would be if it was carried at as it is. The list | :18:25. | :18:37. | |
approved by Mr Speaker, havd to be not later than Friday of thhs week. | :18:38. | :18:46. | |
Is not downstream, by the 20th of this week. It if it is not hn by | :18:47. | :18:50. | |
then, we will not have a delegation. At least until January. So there is | :18:51. | :18:58. | |
some chance of urgency about this. The gentleman said that was delay. | :18:59. | :19:08. | |
To be fair the government, we waited for the Labour Party to havd his | :19:09. | :19:11. | |
leadership election. And thdn for the apportionment of high office | :19:12. | :19:17. | |
within the Labour Party to be made so that others could be allocated to | :19:18. | :19:23. | |
the Council of Europe. That but then a huge amount... In my view. If we | :19:24. | :19:34. | |
don't get our nomination and an type is the Bureau, which we held an It | :19:35. | :19:39. | |
on the 26th of November, thd presidential committee, then none of | :19:40. | :19:50. | |
the work to should take place during December or January, can't take | :19:51. | :19:55. | |
place. That includes in Parhs, and we really need to be in Parhs after | :19:56. | :20:02. | |
the last weekend. Both of us who have signed on the Council have good | :20:03. | :20:05. | |
friends, we want to see thel, and reassured him, wanting to know that | :20:06. | :20:10. | |
we are not running away and that we are beside and behind them. We are | :20:11. | :20:15. | |
supporting them. The first leeting is on the 4th of December,. That is | :20:16. | :20:23. | |
important. Is a pity that the press gallery is into this afternoon, | :20:24. | :20:27. | |
those who have criticised the council of Europe, but to rdcognise | :20:28. | :20:34. | |
that we do a huge amount work. In defence of the freedom of the rights | :20:35. | :20:37. | |
of journalists internationally, we fight for those in prison. That is | :20:38. | :20:49. | |
that. On the 7th of December, we have the political committed in | :20:50. | :20:53. | |
Brussels. That is important. On the eighth, we had the leader affairs | :20:54. | :20:57. | |
committee. On the night, thd monetary committee. On the 00th we | :20:58. | :21:03. | |
had the procedure committee in Paris. On the 13th and 14th of | :21:04. | :21:14. | |
December, will have no delegation -- we have the presidential colmittee | :21:15. | :21:19. | |
and the Bureau here in London. And this building, we are hosting it. We | :21:20. | :21:25. | |
are going to let pretty stupid as a nation if we do not have a | :21:26. | :21:33. | |
delegation to host it. Just by the by, the Speaker is holding ` | :21:34. | :21:36. | |
reception at the end of the day On the 15th of December, the mhgration | :21:37. | :21:40. | |
committee in Paris, which is important. On the 14th of J`nuary, | :21:41. | :21:48. | |
still before the session, wd have the judges committee. That hs very | :21:49. | :22:00. | |
important indeed. I'm saying very gently is that ever have to work | :22:01. | :22:06. | |
that needs to be done betwedn now and the next plenary session. I have | :22:07. | :22:11. | |
already been prevented from completing a report on the fusion of | :22:12. | :22:17. | |
Bosnia as governor, for the monetary committee because we had no | :22:18. | :22:24. | |
delegation. Others of my colleagues have found themselves in thd same | :22:25. | :22:34. | |
boat. Now, I'm not opposing... It applies to the select committees, | :22:35. | :22:36. | |
that is fine by me. If we'rd going to do this, and the bridge `nd that | :22:37. | :22:43. | |
I tabled my amendment, is that I want to give a just a littld bit of | :22:44. | :22:55. | |
time to do the job properly. This issue, we considered every single | :22:56. | :23:01. | |
select committee and the deputy speaker ships. We determined how all | :23:02. | :23:10. | |
that would be elected. One loment. We consider all of that, and we made | :23:11. | :23:18. | |
recommendations, and only one recommendation was rejected. All the | :23:19. | :23:25. | |
rest went through. This isste was never raised. At that time. You have | :23:26. | :23:33. | |
to ask yourself why. Neither was the LSC, which I recognise was not on my | :23:34. | :23:39. | |
friends agenda. Neither is the Nato committee, which I noticed ht now my | :23:40. | :23:44. | |
friends agenda, despite the fact that one very singular membdr of the | :23:45. | :23:47. | |
Nato committee has also been removed from his position. That may have | :23:48. | :23:55. | |
escaped his notice, but it hs true. What I'm saying is that if we going | :23:56. | :23:58. | |
to do this properly, I would have preferred this to be referrdd to the | :23:59. | :24:05. | |
procedure committee first, for a proper recommendation considering | :24:06. | :24:08. | |
both the Council of Europe `nd the OSCE, and Nato. That would have been | :24:09. | :24:13. | |
approved by the House in tile but then the election of a few committee | :24:14. | :24:20. | |
for the next session in 2017. I m told that there is a fear that the | :24:21. | :24:24. | |
government would block that. I do not believe that so. And hope that | :24:25. | :24:28. | |
my friend on the front bench might be able to give a clear asstrance | :24:29. | :24:33. | |
that shall be able to. It whll go down the committee... And do the job | :24:34. | :24:38. | |
properly, the government whdn I stand in the way of his findings. I | :24:39. | :24:43. | |
think if we did that, will be doing a better job. I can and will work | :24:44. | :24:50. | |
with whatever the hosted upon me this afternoon. If it is my humble | :24:51. | :24:57. | |
friend's amendment from, we will work within that as best we can But | :24:58. | :25:03. | |
it is the original motion, then I fill your build the House. | :25:04. | :25:12. | |
Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker, Rahm my right honourable friend the Prime | :25:13. | :25:18. | |
Minister issued a statement confirming the names of the UK | :25:19. | :25:22. | |
delegation on Tuesday, the credentials of the current | :25:23. | :25:26. | |
delegation expired on the 6th of November six months at the general | :25:27. | :25:29. | |
election. There is now no delegation. We have to transmit the | :25:30. | :25:35. | |
credentials for consideration by the standing committee on the 27th of | :25:36. | :25:39. | |
November, and as we have already heard, they prefer to have `s a week | :25:40. | :25:42. | |
and as we have already heard, they prefer to have as a week mentioned | :25:43. | :25:46. | |
the date of the 20th of Novdmber. The more we wait, the more the | :25:47. | :25:55. | |
problem is exasperated, it will mean the delegation members will be | :25:56. | :25:58. | |
unable to participate in assembly business. Until the next recession | :25:59. | :26:04. | |
in January. I think it is bdst if I try to inform the house on the | :26:05. | :26:08. | |
governments position. The absence of the UK delegation will be fdlt in | :26:09. | :26:14. | |
the committees as well as preventing participation and keep us a | :26:15. | :26:20. | |
summation during the period. It is not represent delegation and the | :26:21. | :26:24. | |
civil delegation, as a consdquence will be without a voice. My | :26:25. | :26:27. | |
honourable friend has explahned some of the further meetings and more | :26:28. | :26:31. | |
detailed. The bristles of the motion should recognise that UK publisher | :26:32. | :26:35. | |
delegations is not a selecthvity of this house. Because of your past | :26:36. | :26:39. | |
certain guidelines to provide that the delegation is a fair rendition | :26:40. | :26:44. | |
of Parliament, in meeting those guidelines we have a fair rdndition | :26:45. | :26:47. | |
of Parliament, in meeting those guidelines we have ensured that the | :26:48. | :26:49. | |
delegation has had a appropriate local ballots, and members of both | :26:50. | :26:54. | |
houses MPs of every nation of United Kingdom have also fulfilled the | :26:55. | :26:57. | |
criteria on gender balance, I will give way. When there was a vacancy | :26:58. | :27:04. | |
for the better of the labour delegation some years ago, `nd the | :27:05. | :27:08. | |
leader of the majority delegation is the leader of the entire delegation | :27:09. | :27:13. | |
as well. A vote was held between the Lord Prescott, and someone dlse | :27:14. | :27:22. | |
could you tell us and explahn to the house how the member was chosen as | :27:23. | :27:33. | |
the leader delegate. Not only of the conservative delegation but of the | :27:34. | :27:36. | |
entire delegation. How does that process work, election or | :27:37. | :27:39. | |
appointment? Given that thex have the majority of the United Kingdom | :27:40. | :27:44. | |
in the House of Commons, I believe that this is a was made by the Prime | :27:45. | :27:51. | |
Minister, I am not privy to all of the ins and outs to how laboured | :27:52. | :27:56. | |
beside who they or appoint, to various committees or variots | :27:57. | :28:00. | |
assembly delegation. I am not aware of the election to which he | :28:01. | :28:03. | |
referred, but I am not award that that was an election of the whole | :28:04. | :28:07. | |
house, which by his logic, ht probably should be, given that whole | :28:08. | :28:13. | |
house elects chairs of the committee. I am aware that hn 2 10, | :28:14. | :28:18. | |
the labour delegation was not contested to the election, H am not | :28:19. | :28:24. | |
aware of this year. Returning, met under 30 Speaker, as a consdquence | :28:25. | :28:27. | |
as what I have just outlined of the Council Europe having certahn | :28:28. | :28:31. | |
guidelines and how I do miss at how we met them, as a consequence I | :28:32. | :28:34. | |
believe that delegation is perfectly in order, it hasn't been thhs way | :28:35. | :28:37. | |
for many years and we believe that this is still the right way to | :28:38. | :28:40. | |
nominate this Parliamentary delegation as it is not a | :28:41. | :28:45. | |
selectivity. I should remind honourable and right honour`ble | :28:46. | :28:47. | |
member said we have polymers delegations to the OSCE, Nato and | :28:48. | :28:53. | |
the British Ireland Parliamdnt to committee which is meeting today. | :28:54. | :28:58. | |
The UK Parliament is at risk of losing influence in a important | :28:59. | :29:02. | |
time. The government does not support this motion so I wotld | :29:03. | :29:05. | |
encourage my right honourable friend to see that the house to withdraw | :29:06. | :29:09. | |
the motion or not to give voice to the Boston at the end of thhs | :29:10. | :29:12. | |
debate. I make this same encouragement to my honourable | :29:13. | :29:17. | |
friend regarding his amendmdnt. I will be very brief. When thd | :29:18. | :29:24. | |
government and a system that does not have a separation of powers | :29:25. | :29:26. | |
chooses to use its dominancd against the legislator, one of the things it | :29:27. | :29:35. | |
is very good at doing is making very important issues of principle and to | :29:36. | :29:41. | |
trivial or procedural matters, this is painted as a introverted is a | :29:42. | :29:47. | |
Turk issue about the council. I have no issue whatsoever in the Council | :29:48. | :29:52. | |
of Europe and do not wish to be on the Council of Europe. God bless | :29:53. | :29:58. | |
those who do. But, the issud at its heart could not be more significant. | :29:59. | :30:05. | |
That is whether members of this house can elect their own ddlegates | :30:06. | :30:10. | |
and do so by means of a secret ballot, rather than having the front | :30:11. | :30:17. | |
benches beside who is to represent the House of Commons on these | :30:18. | :30:24. | |
organisations. That is a fundamental issue, the use of a secret ballot in | :30:25. | :30:33. | |
an old franchise. The point I was to make on the back of that, is a short | :30:34. | :30:38. | |
and simple one, that is that there are many new members and thhs house | :30:39. | :30:44. | |
and many of them on my side, and on all sides of the house who lay just | :30:45. | :30:48. | |
think that we have gotten to this point every secret ballot, `nd it | :30:49. | :30:53. | |
must have been this edition of the house surely for 50 years, ` hundred | :30:54. | :30:59. | |
years, to years? No. It is six years old. The idea that members hn this | :31:00. | :31:06. | |
house are capable of their own members to select committees, such | :31:07. | :31:10. | |
as the deputy chair who served with great distinction, and the select | :31:11. | :31:15. | |
committee that I'd shared in the last Parliament, that we can do | :31:16. | :31:21. | |
that, the select committee chairs themselves can be elected and a | :31:22. | :31:24. | |
secure ballot. Within the m`in parties, within all of the parties | :31:25. | :31:32. | |
of this Parliament. Those things are things which have been a part of our | :31:33. | :31:36. | |
environment only for about five years. My anxiety, matter that the | :31:37. | :31:41. | |
speaker is that if we did not hold the line on this is that thdre could | :31:42. | :31:48. | |
be slippage back to the days of when a particular important person who is | :31:49. | :31:56. | |
independent-minded, chair of the Social Security and committde, was | :31:57. | :32:04. | |
eased out. Rather publicly, pushed out by his side. On my side of the | :32:05. | :32:10. | |
house, one of the most disthnguished select committee chairs, was again | :32:11. | :32:18. | |
fighting and hanging on by their fingernails to the chair th`t she | :32:19. | :32:22. | |
had made such an important part of this house, and became one of the | :32:23. | :32:30. | |
key places that issues were fought out in this house. We could return | :32:31. | :32:36. | |
to those days very quickly, unless colleagues and all parties hang onto | :32:37. | :32:41. | |
this principle, that they c`n elect their own representative. I give way | :32:42. | :32:49. | |
to the honourable Flamenco he was a part of the committee, which | :32:50. | :32:55. | |
represented that all elected, does this not demonstrate to not only to | :32:56. | :32:59. | |
the European committee to bd elected by this house, but in DV Hotse | :33:00. | :33:03. | |
committees of the. To be eldcted as well? We have the new slipp`ge, I | :33:04. | :33:17. | |
will not go into any new detail The reform committee has been abolished | :33:18. | :33:21. | |
by government, by the front benches, who decided that they did | :33:22. | :33:24. | |
not want to continue with some of that work. We haven't a thele and | :33:25. | :33:29. | |
now for six years of the crdation of the house and business commhttee, | :33:30. | :33:33. | |
which all parties said they would sign up to, and now we aren't seeing | :33:34. | :33:39. | |
any rows in the of that principle that the secret ballot should rule | :33:40. | :33:48. | |
for positions, outside of this house. It is, Madam Deputy chair, | :33:49. | :33:53. | |
Medvedev to the speaker forgive me, an area that's my done deputies | :33:54. | :34:00. | |
bigger. It should concern mdmbers of independent mind, they should hold | :34:01. | :34:08. | |
the line on this a very significant issue. It is one of the fundamental | :34:09. | :34:18. | |
issues that Parliament can discuss. Is a real pleasure to follow the | :34:19. | :34:23. | |
honourable member who has expressed exactly why this is such an | :34:24. | :34:27. | |
important debate today, his consistency for putting Parliament | :34:28. | :34:31. | |
first. I came across the Cotncil of Europe early on Whee -- onlx on | :34:32. | :34:39. | |
those met occasions. The deputy chief said to me that they would | :34:40. | :34:45. | |
like me to go on the Council of Europe, of course I found ott why. | :34:46. | :34:48. | |
It was not because I would be a star on the Council of Europe, I would be | :34:49. | :34:52. | |
sent away from this house and not be aggravating to the wit, I m`y | :34:53. | :34:59. | |
possess assembly members who had been removed, the principal is not | :35:00. | :35:05. | |
the fact that we had three lembers who buy convention would have been | :35:06. | :35:09. | |
reappointed, who have not bden removed. That is not the re`son that | :35:10. | :35:16. | |
I actually am supporting. Not the motion, because my name was on the | :35:17. | :35:20. | |
original motion but in fact the amendment my honourable fridnd has | :35:21. | :35:24. | |
ordered, but I very was the point that honourable friend made, that in | :35:25. | :35:31. | |
practical terms if the main motion was passed, it would be verx | :35:32. | :35:35. | |
difficult to get our delegation there quick enough, and it would be | :35:36. | :35:40. | |
a gap. I think that is the reason that we should all support the | :35:41. | :35:44. | |
amendment. I really do not see why, every body into the house could not | :35:45. | :35:49. | |
come around with a very sensible compromise. We can have deldgation | :35:50. | :35:53. | |
appointed affectively tomorrow, because as the speaker has said he | :35:54. | :35:58. | |
wanted to know the word of the house before submitting the man's. And | :35:59. | :36:01. | |
yet, we would have elections next year. I think that solves that | :36:02. | :36:06. | |
problem. It does with the go back to the veritable point, that is a | :36:07. | :36:10. | |
parliamentary assembly of the Council of Europe, it is thd | :36:11. | :36:14. | |
Parliamentary assembly. It hs not the ministers who sit in thd | :36:15. | :36:19. | |
Council, it is not that part of it, and the Parliamentary assembly. It | :36:20. | :36:23. | |
represents this house, so this house must choose. It should not be | :36:24. | :36:28. | |
appointed by the executive. This is clearly house business, this is | :36:29. | :36:33. | |
clearly not a party politic`l, and I am sure that when the vote, the | :36:34. | :36:38. | |
government will do what is done with so many backbench business. And ask | :36:39. | :36:44. | |
the payroll to abstain, and not both, and let members who are not | :36:45. | :36:53. | |
part of the executive express with you on what is clearly housd | :36:54. | :36:58. | |
matters. I am grateful for ly honourable friend for his stpport. | :36:59. | :37:03. | |
Given that he has very kindly indicated, he is withdrawing his | :37:04. | :37:07. | |
support from the main motion, does he share my concerns that the | :37:08. | :37:10. | |
Minister and her remarks only advance reasons not to support the | :37:11. | :37:17. | |
main motion, I have yet to hear an argument from the front bench or | :37:18. | :37:21. | |
elsewhere as to why the amendment would be a problem. I am very | :37:22. | :37:27. | |
grateful for my honourable friend intervention. What I think ht | :37:28. | :37:31. | |
explains to us, is that the Minister quite friendly explain why the | :37:32. | :37:38. | |
original motion would not work. I do not think that she wanted to express | :37:39. | :37:42. | |
an opinion on the mind meant, because she recognises that it is | :37:43. | :37:47. | |
not something that the government should express an opinion. This as | :37:48. | :37:54. | |
they can bully out of it. -, they should stay completely out of it. | :37:55. | :37:57. | |
They should let them make their own mind up. I want to pay tribtte to | :37:58. | :38:01. | |
the Council of Europe, becatse when I was chairman of the party group | :38:02. | :38:07. | |
against human trafficking, ht was not the European Union that was | :38:08. | :38:11. | |
promoting reform, it was thd Council of Europe. The original mothon, the | :38:12. | :38:19. | |
original convention on the rights of people against human trafficking was | :38:20. | :38:26. | |
a Council of Europe. Represdnting 47 countries and I remember ard great | :38:27. | :38:30. | |
from the other benches to gdt the then Labour government to r`tify. | :38:31. | :38:34. | |
This is not a minor matter Ladam Deputy, is extremely import`nt. This | :38:35. | :38:41. | |
is entirely about parliamentary democracy, it is absolutely a mind | :38:42. | :38:45. | |
with what the Prime Minister so eloquently said in his parlhamentary | :38:46. | :38:52. | |
speech. It is a line with mx vitamins manifesto, it is the right | :38:53. | :38:55. | |
thing to do to support this amendment. Thank you Madam Deputy | :38:56. | :39:04. | |
Speaker, I am sorry in fact, I am a little embarrassed to interrupt this | :39:05. | :39:11. | |
family argument or lovers tdst perhaps, because that is essentially | :39:12. | :39:18. | |
what this is. I cannot conctr the debates on the inner workings of the | :39:19. | :39:23. | |
conservative party are really the best way to use valuable tile in | :39:24. | :39:29. | |
this chamber. I do welcome the conservative parties of backbench is | :39:30. | :39:34. | |
new-found belief in democracy. I'd think that they should go ftrther | :39:35. | :39:39. | |
and give the public more as they say over important issues. Becatse it | :39:40. | :39:45. | |
shortly, the irony cannot bd lost on them, the Tory MPs are arguhng and | :39:46. | :39:50. | |
this plays to give themselvds a vote on members and the Council of Europe | :39:51. | :39:55. | |
while their peers and the other plays are voting today to do 16 and | :39:56. | :39:59. | |
17-year-olds and vote on thd referendum of Britain's membership | :40:00. | :40:04. | |
of the European Union. Thosd numbers opposite who are arguing for | :40:05. | :40:08. | |
democracy are correct. That almost goes without saying, I am not as | :40:09. | :40:12. | |
wide as the honourable membdr who is no longer in his place, we hn the | :40:13. | :40:17. | |
Labour Party appoint our melbers is through elections and we have an | :40:18. | :40:20. | |
excellent set of representatives to show for it. We are perfectly happy | :40:21. | :40:27. | |
to see changes made, if further parties wishes to adopt our system. | :40:28. | :40:31. | |
The Parliamentary assembly of the Council of Europe isn't meant to be | :40:32. | :40:35. | |
made up of Parliamentary Representative not the | :40:36. | :40:43. | |
representatives. -- is. Thex must be elected or appointed by parliament. | :40:44. | :40:47. | |
Neither has happened here, `nd said, it is clear to everyone that the | :40:48. | :40:52. | |
Prime Minister is punishing members who disagree with him. This is no | :40:53. | :40:56. | |
way to go about selecting representatives for our country The | :40:57. | :40:59. | |
assembly is after all, meant to be the repetition of Europe's | :41:00. | :41:03. | |
Parliament. Not a group of those and the good book of Europe's prime | :41:04. | :41:08. | |
minister and Parliament. Situation is becoming embarrassing for the | :41:09. | :41:12. | |
UK, the standing committee for the Parliamentary assembly for the | :41:13. | :41:15. | |
Council of Europe is leading at the end of this month, and we still do | :41:16. | :41:21. | |
not have a representative. That means that the UK can have no | :41:22. | :41:25. | |
constitution when the US of Europe is debating refugees and migrants | :41:26. | :41:30. | |
justice and human rights. T`ckling violence against women and other | :41:31. | :41:35. | |
major issues facing the continent, the UK needs to have a seat at the | :41:36. | :41:39. | |
table when the assembly is deciding on policies which will affect our | :41:40. | :41:43. | |
country. Once again, the internal squabbles of the conservative party | :41:44. | :41:47. | |
are weakening the Duke case voice with an Europe. -- UK's. Thd | :41:48. | :41:53. | |
government has had months to sort this out. Instead they have created | :41:54. | :41:59. | |
this must completely unnecessarily. The government needs to sort out as | :42:00. | :42:04. | |
it with their own MPs and they need to do it before it damages our place | :42:05. | :42:11. | |
at the table and Europe. Madam Deputy Speaker what a wonderful | :42:12. | :42:15. | |
think it is to observe and calls close quarters of the development | :42:16. | :42:20. | |
progress of democracy. Ideas to think that these things would happen | :42:21. | :42:26. | |
care. , and the development of high principle. Through gentle mdans but | :42:27. | :42:34. | |
in fact I wonder now if democracy is advanced to the irritation of those | :42:35. | :42:38. | |
and a power when their rights are trespassed upon by those in higher | :42:39. | :42:43. | |
office. Of course, this set of circumstance bears no relathon to | :42:44. | :42:45. | |
the great events and hundred years ago when a tyrant imposes whll on | :42:46. | :42:53. | |
the buzz of the Magna Carta is quite different. We wish to uphold the | :42:54. | :42:58. | |
principle but that the Housd has already accepted that we eldct our | :42:59. | :43:03. | |
own representatives. I accept the original motion which I sighed, it | :43:04. | :43:08. | |
does involve with and it a little bit of that revolution from a | :43:09. | :43:24. | |
hundred years ago. -- 800. Hf my spirit was not condemned, mx | :43:25. | :43:28. | |
honourable friend on the front bed certainly quench it completdly, I | :43:29. | :44:18. | |
To have had no denials from the front bench on this issue. We don't | :44:19. | :44:27. | |
have to rely on Daily Telegraph reports and hearsay. We know why | :44:28. | :44:31. | |
this is happened. Opinion into the grey shame that it has. We should | :44:32. | :44:35. | |
perhaps remind ourselves th`t this is the Parliamentary assembly of the | :44:36. | :44:40. | |
Council of Europe. Thereford, it is up to Parliament to elect bx | :44:41. | :44:48. | |
whatever needs they deem fit and sensible of their own | :44:49. | :44:50. | |
representatives when it comds to this counsel for Durer, and here we | :44:51. | :44:57. | |
have the ludicrous situation where we had this tussle between the | :44:58. | :45:02. | |
executive and legislative, where the hole has been dubbed by minhsters | :45:03. | :45:05. | |
and there would be best advhsed now to stop digging and just accept | :45:06. | :45:12. | |
amendment be. And allowed this situation to resolve itself in that | :45:13. | :45:20. | |
manner. We must come back to the fundamental principle that pulmonary | :45:21. | :45:23. | |
backbenchers, on issues of this sort, where the Council of Durope of | :45:24. | :45:30. | |
47 nations, together, has expects their assemblies to be made up of | :45:31. | :45:34. | |
backbenchers, able to express their views elected by the sales, we | :45:35. | :45:41. | |
should remind ourselves that is what the Council of Europe is about. Is | :45:42. | :45:44. | |
what the vast majority of of the Parliamentary assembles, go about | :45:45. | :45:49. | |
their business. I think we need to catch up with that principld, | :45:50. | :45:53. | |
particularly when ministers have decided to try and punish | :45:54. | :45:57. | |
individuals for stressing their views against the government. It is | :45:58. | :46:01. | |
a fundamental principle of the executive and legislative. Hs about | :46:02. | :46:04. | |
the Council Bureau, but somdthing much bigger as well. Is abott | :46:05. | :46:09. | |
getting that balance between the executive and legislative, `nd we | :46:10. | :46:12. | |
have a opportunity to take ` small step for in that director and this | :46:13. | :46:17. | |
evening. I house to have to support the amendment, tabled by my friend. | :46:18. | :46:25. | |
I am very grateful for being called so late in the debate. I want to | :46:26. | :46:29. | |
place on record for the bendfit of the House, as a member of the | :46:30. | :46:33. | |
Backbench Business Committed, that this cable for us as a membdr of the | :46:34. | :46:36. | |
Backbench Business Committed, that this came before us and across party | :46:37. | :46:39. | |
application. It was not purdly presented by members of the | :46:40. | :46:44. | |
government side of the Housd and. It with a cross party applicathon, I | :46:45. | :46:46. | |
think that should be clearlx put on the record from the point of view of | :46:47. | :46:56. | |
the Backbench Business Commhttee. We had an interesting debate. @s a | :46:57. | :47:02. | |
member of six parties signed the original motion. I don't entirely | :47:03. | :47:10. | |
accept his gloomy view that it's impossible to organise a smooth | :47:11. | :47:16. | |
election on short notice. Ghven the complements of the chairman, I think | :47:17. | :47:25. | |
you could. I think he does come with some sensible and practical point, | :47:26. | :47:28. | |
given all the important werd going down the road at the Capitol Bureau. | :47:29. | :47:34. | |
And that the UK is currentlx not represented. I think we havd clearly | :47:35. | :47:42. | |
won the point that it is appropriate that a body, which is representative | :47:43. | :47:51. | |
of 47 governments, should h`ve the government and ministers, btt the | :47:52. | :47:55. | |
body which is there for the parliament to scrutinize and hold to | :47:56. | :48:00. | |
account the 47 governments, should have those parliaments's eldct those | :48:01. | :48:06. | |
people. Given that there sedms to be a sense that this amendment, said to | :48:07. | :48:16. | |
have, I sent some support across the House. We are not clear what the | :48:17. | :48:19. | |
government is going to think about this. I will wait to see, I think it | :48:20. | :48:27. | |
is our best chance to make ` compromise where we can keep the | :48:28. | :48:32. | |
delegation doing the import`nt work, but also give us propdr | :48:33. | :48:38. | |
election system down the ro`d. The question is that the amendmdnt, | :48:39. | :48:46. | |
amendment be corrupt, the qtestion is that the amendment be made. Of | :48:47. | :48:50. | |
the contrary. Clear at the lobby! Order! The question is that the | :48:51. | :51:31. | |
amendment be made as many whth that opinion say Aye's, on the contrary | :51:32. | :51:39. | |
Saint No's. Told us of the No's George Cole and Barry. | :51:40. | :57:24. | |
Order! Order! The the No's 071. The Aye's to the rights, 34, thd No s to | :57:25. | :01:04. | |
the left, 171. The No's havd it The No's have it. The question hs the | :01:05. | :01:14. | |
motion as on the order paper, as many as that opinion say Ayd's, on | :01:15. | :01:22. | |
the contrary note. The No's have it. The No's have it. A point of | :01:23. | :01:34. | |
order, sir. As someone who does not actually follow the petty dhsputes | :01:35. | :01:40. | |
as the Conservative Party, can you explain to the rest of the halls... | :01:41. | :01:46. | |
Order! I cannot hear the gentleman who is speaking. People shotld not | :01:47. | :01:54. | |
be speaking behind the chair! I am grateful Madam Deputy Speakdr for a | :01:55. | :01:57. | |
second chance of this. For those of us who do not follow the disputes | :01:58. | :02:01. | |
that we have in the Conserv`tive Party, can you explain to us which | :02:02. | :02:06. | |
way in all of the Conservathve Party after the Conservative Partx | :02:07. | :02:10. | |
actually won that both? No, I cannot explain that. I think he knows as | :02:11. | :02:14. | |
the House does that very fortunately it is not a point of order for the | :02:15. | :02:22. | |
chair. Point of order, Mr Alan. Is it possible for the chair to inform | :02:23. | :02:28. | |
that he would understand more of the way to vote, what the discussion was | :02:29. | :02:31. | |
about, were it to turn the debates... Order! Order! Very | :02:32. | :02:43. | |
fortunately, the matter of lembers being in the chamber or not in the | :02:44. | :02:47. | |
chamber is also not a matter for the chair. But, as a point of | :02:48. | :02:51. | |
information the honourable gentleman was here for a fair amount of the | :02:52. | :02:54. | |
debate and I am sure he unddrstands it as well as anyone. We now come to | :02:55. | :03:06. | |
the debates on the Pharma. . Mr David Burrows, Mr David Burrows to | :03:07. | :03:16. | |
move the motion. Madam Deputy Speaker, I beg to move the lotion as | :03:17. | :03:20. | |
on the order paper relating to this. Order! Members in this chamber are | :03:21. | :03:26. | |
being exceedingly discourteous to the gentleman who is trying to move | :03:27. | :03:38. | |
a motion. Mr Burrows. The m`ssacre in Paris is rightly dominathng | :03:39. | :03:41. | |
public and parliamentary attention today. The question may be `sked, | :03:42. | :03:46. | |
why is a motion about Cyprus being debated today? I could use the | :03:47. | :03:53. | |
phrase commonly used by manx of my constituents. Why not? In f`ct, they | :03:54. | :03:58. | |
have been asking the question of why not for over 40 years following the | :03:59. | :04:05. | |
occupation of Cyprus in 1974. Why not Justice for Cyprus? Othdr | :04:06. | :04:09. | |
divided and occupy countries have seen freedoms over those 40 or so | :04:10. | :04:15. | |
years, but Cyprus remains one of the longest-running unresolved hssues in | :04:16. | :04:22. | |
British foreign-policy. This issue matters to my constituents because I | :04:23. | :04:29. | |
represent the most Cypriots, both Greek and together in the world | :04:30. | :04:34. | |
While I am proud of representing so many constituents it is a s`d | :04:35. | :04:39. | |
statistic because it is the only place in the world that has so many | :04:40. | :04:47. | |
both Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots in such numbers living | :04:48. | :04:50. | |
freely side-by-side, working, socialising, and trading together. | :04:51. | :04:56. | |
In my constituents we have wreaked Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots being | :04:57. | :05:02. | |
together, but in Cyprus the Greek and Turkish Cypriots divided by the | :05:03. | :05:07. | |
green lines. Cyprus also relains one of the most militarized places per | :05:08. | :05:12. | |
head of population anywhere in the world. When we think of conflicts | :05:13. | :05:17. | |
around the world, that is an extraordinary statistic. Whdn one | :05:18. | :05:24. | |
notes the tens of thousands of Turkish troops in the north of | :05:25. | :05:28. | |
Cyprus we have to ask ourselves why is this continuing? Day aftdr day | :05:29. | :05:34. | |
year. And we say this when we know that Cyprus is a member of the | :05:35. | :05:40. | |
European Union. Which is tragically, and intolerably, divided | :05:41. | :05:44. | |
and occupied. And the context of this motion before the Housd today. | :05:45. | :05:49. | |
Why before this particular house of Parliament when as we know Britain | :05:50. | :05:54. | |
has a historical interest in Cyprus, it has a legal interest and has a | :05:55. | :06:02. | |
more obvious indeed in recent months and days, obvious strategic interest | :06:03. | :06:07. | |
given that Cyprus location hn that troubled region and indeed ht's home | :06:08. | :06:11. | |
to those sovereign base are`s where we are secret particular reference | :06:12. | :06:17. | |
to the wider world to much `nd we know the tornadoes by their conduct | :06:18. | :06:20. | |
and operate, operations and may be further to come. I please ghve way. | :06:21. | :06:27. | |
I would like to congratulatd him on bringing forward this debatd... Here | :06:28. | :06:35. | |
here, he will know that previous governments if not the currdnt one | :06:36. | :06:39. | |
are very keen to get their hands on those sovereign base areas. To what | :06:40. | :06:43. | |
extent does he think that attention is taken from those areas bx the | :06:44. | :06:51. | |
convicts currently between the Turkish and Cypriots side. Once that | :06:52. | :06:54. | |
is a result which I hope it is soon, the steeper the tension may | :06:55. | :07:02. | |
refocus on Alkatiri and? I can talk with some interest, it is something | :07:03. | :07:05. | |
I should declare an interest with the friends of Cyprus and rdally... | :07:06. | :07:09. | |
Recently visiting we have jtst returned over the weekend, we have a | :07:10. | :07:16. | |
conservative president who has taken a very sensible view in rel`tion to | :07:17. | :07:21. | |
the sovereign base areas. Rdcently one important agreement that was | :07:22. | :07:23. | |
reached with the British Government was in terms of an appropri`te | :07:24. | :07:27. | |
property development to support Cyprus and its road to economic | :07:28. | :07:32. | |
recovery. Each is a very pr`gmatic use of those areas, and also a keen | :07:33. | :07:36. | |
understanding of the ongoing to keep the interest of those base `reas and | :07:37. | :07:40. | |
for wider security in the rdgion. I think Cyprus is in good hands, | :07:41. | :07:45. | |
together that is compared to settlement that we all seek to have | :07:46. | :07:48. | |
resolved together with that ongoing strategic that we have. Togdther | :07:49. | :07:53. | |
Cyprus can be a beacon to other nations. Working together, providing | :07:54. | :07:59. | |
the ability that region does Sony. This house has been used to, I have | :08:00. | :08:08. | |
been debates on Cyprus, and many across the House as well. What makes | :08:09. | :08:12. | |
this particular debate diffdrent is that we have a substantive lotion, I | :08:13. | :08:16. | |
want to thank the backbench committee for agreeing to. The | :08:17. | :08:20. | |
reason for this motion is m`ny ways the basis of it is public stpport. | :08:21. | :08:26. | |
Picked up a petition signed by 50,000 Greek and Turkish Cypriots | :08:27. | :08:30. | |
which presented to the Primd Minister in 2012. It follows up her | :08:31. | :08:34. | |
it follows up her the declaration of the European Parliament of 04th of | :08:35. | :08:39. | |
February 2012, calling for the return, such a motion can bd good | :08:40. | :08:44. | |
for the European Parliament. It can certainly be good for British | :08:45. | :08:49. | |
Parliament. We often say th`t our debates are timely in this place, | :08:50. | :08:52. | |
well they certainly are when it comes to this particular motion | :08:53. | :08:55. | |
before the House. Not just because along with six under honour`ble | :08:56. | :09:00. | |
friends who are here today. Just returned from a recent visit but | :09:01. | :09:06. | |
also because the two readers of Cyprus are undertaking an intense | :09:07. | :09:10. | |
period of negotiations this month to reach a settlement to the Cxprus | :09:11. | :09:16. | |
problem. For meetings with both Greek and Turkish Cypriots revealed | :09:17. | :09:19. | |
an encouraging, positive approach to the talks. Both ambassador the Greek | :09:20. | :09:24. | |
Cypriots describe it as the best chance ever. If we do not stcceed | :09:25. | :09:33. | |
now, we may never succeed. This echoes the remarks from the Foreign | :09:34. | :09:39. | |
Secretary a couple of months ago who also has great timing, he whll be | :09:40. | :09:43. | |
visiting Cyprus on Thursday. He said that the stars are optimisthcally | :09:44. | :09:48. | |
aligned to create the chancd for supplement the likes of which we | :09:49. | :09:51. | |
have not seen in decades. I look forward to the Minister, on behalf | :09:52. | :09:55. | |
of the House and indeed the government. I firmly support for the | :09:56. | :10:00. | |
conference of settlement and we need this as soon as possible. Why the | :10:01. | :10:06. | |
particular attention on Fam`gusta in this motion? The reason is `ll too | :10:07. | :10:11. | |
clear. It is all too clear hn deed as it was too honourable frhends who | :10:12. | :10:15. | |
were there just on Saturday. For themselves as I saw very visibly on | :10:16. | :10:24. | |
the beach there at Famagust`, a fenced off area... I do givd way. I | :10:25. | :10:31. | |
have to declare an interest as well, I accompanied my honourable friend | :10:32. | :10:37. | |
recently on the trip to Cyprus. Famagusta has some of the most | :10:38. | :10:42. | |
beautiful beaches in the world, and would play a strong part in the | :10:43. | :10:48. | |
economy. I know this becausd my constituents also have some | :10:49. | :10:53. | |
beautiful beaches, but would he join me in encouraging both sides to come | :10:54. | :10:57. | |
to an agreement so that we do not see these beaches divided bx what is | :10:58. | :11:03. | |
a dreadful barrier with part of that town being a ghost town? He`r, hear! | :11:04. | :11:10. | |
My honourable friend seeks of the issue of Therese M and beautiful | :11:11. | :11:13. | |
coastlines that benefit frol tourism and how important is that F`magusta | :11:14. | :11:19. | |
which 50 feet were sent of tourism of Cyprus was generated in Famagusta | :11:20. | :11:25. | |
and now it is referred to often as a ghost town. A ghost town whhch is in | :11:26. | :11:29. | |
sharp contrast as it was thd jewel of the Mediterranean. Everyday that | :11:30. | :11:36. | |
Famagusta is as it is, is a day of injustice. That is where yot must | :11:37. | :11:41. | |
not let it be tolerated. Whhle we appropriately recognise support for | :11:42. | :11:43. | |
comprehensive settlement, F`magusta in its return is a key elemdnt in | :11:44. | :11:49. | |
facilitating that settlement. I give way. I thank my friend for securing | :11:50. | :11:56. | |
this debate, I know are hard he fights for Cypriots constittents | :11:57. | :11:58. | |
whether Turkish or Greek heritage. Does he agree with me that Famagusta | :11:59. | :12:04. | |
is a visible reminder that Cyprus is the only EU country occupied, and | :12:05. | :12:09. | |
occupied by foreign power which if Turkey? We cannot allow Turkey to | :12:10. | :12:15. | |
exceed to VE you until they withdraw from the Cyprus. I have been a | :12:16. | :12:20. | |
champion of these causes ovdr a number of years, indeed the | :12:21. | :12:26. | |
Famagusta who are acutely aware of that very fact and the along with | :12:27. | :12:30. | |
40,000 fled their town. There would also recognise if they lost their | :12:31. | :12:35. | |
town, they have lost their freedom, there just is, that we all do this | :12:36. | :12:40. | |
is a scar on Europe. It is ` star that must be sorted out and sooner | :12:41. | :12:44. | |
rather than later. It is th`t visible reality of divided occupied | :12:45. | :12:52. | |
island. It also offers the hope and opportunity for providing a | :12:53. | :12:55. | |
credibility for a settlement. That is important. It is something that | :12:56. | :12:59. | |
is recognised by all communhties will form the basis for the motion | :13:00. | :13:04. | |
by signing that petition. Bdcause, they together recognise the | :13:05. | :13:10. | |
importance of this important act of justice. They themselves have called | :13:11. | :13:17. | |
for the two UN security council resolutions, 550, 780, to bd | :13:18. | :13:21. | |
properly fulfilled. Sadly, Turkey has ignored. I have invited the | :13:22. | :13:27. | |
Minister to know what steps have been taken to ensure that wd get | :13:28. | :13:31. | |
that Corporation. We must sde that Corporation to ensure that this | :13:32. | :13:36. | |
settlement is truly credibld and has a reality. Britain has a kex role to | :13:37. | :13:41. | |
play in securing that Corporation and providing that assurancd, that | :13:42. | :13:44. | |
safety, that security that dveryone wants. The return of Famagusta has | :13:45. | :13:51. | |
been described during our vhsit is a game changer. Before I go on to | :13:52. | :13:56. | |
describe why, I give way. Could I thank the Honorable gentlem`n for | :13:57. | :14:00. | |
giving way, I congratulate him for securing this debate. Also, does he | :14:01. | :14:05. | |
agree with me that there is a lot of cross party support on thesd benches | :14:06. | :14:09. | |
for a deal and that we may hndeed be seeing the very moment wherd they | :14:10. | :14:12. | |
could see both sides coming together, extending the arm of | :14:13. | :14:15. | |
friendship and having a lot of support in the region for that | :14:16. | :14:18. | |
particular is that the men's? Does he agree it is a good thing to say | :14:19. | :14:24. | |
that the Cabinet secretary hs being visited Cyprus recently, twhce in | :14:25. | :14:27. | |
the last 12 months and think that is a positive step as well? Th`nk you, | :14:28. | :14:32. | |
these are all very positive steps. He also wanted to provide a reality | :14:33. | :14:38. | |
to the agreement that betwedn beers in the past that has been mdt with | :14:39. | :14:44. | |
approval, both sides, we want to ensure that is a reality to that. | :14:45. | :14:49. | |
One key way is Famagusta. I can go away from Famagusta because that is | :14:50. | :14:57. | |
the subject of this motion. Under Greek and Turkish Cypriots tnder | :14:58. | :15:01. | |
their implementation, run jointly by them under supervision of the UN, | :15:02. | :15:05. | |
that which magically help financially support a reunited | :15:06. | :15:12. | |
Cyprus. I give way. I think the honourable gentleman for giving way, | :15:13. | :15:20. | |
as the co-chair of the northern Turkish Republic of Cyprus, I had | :15:21. | :15:26. | |
just come back from a visit, and I while we were in North Cyprts we met | :15:27. | :15:36. | |
with the president, and othdr the Prime Minister and everyone, they | :15:37. | :15:39. | |
seem to be very optimistic that a deal and a settlement would be done | :15:40. | :15:41. | |
very shortly, we also met the British ambassador in Cyprus as | :15:42. | :15:47. | |
well, with these matters we have discussed. I think as I unddrstand | :15:48. | :15:52. | |
it, the issue is very much part of the discussion that had takdn | :15:53. | :15:58. | |
place. I sense from my disctssion there that they were hoping that | :15:59. | :16:02. | |
very much not later, but soon that there would be some sort of | :16:03. | :16:07. | |
settlement taking place. Thd lady has plenty of opportunity to make a | :16:08. | :16:12. | |
speech later. Her benches are not overpopulated, it is bad form to | :16:13. | :16:15. | |
make a very long intervention. Mr Burroughs. Thankful for that | :16:16. | :16:20. | |
intervention, he makes a pohnt that there is of course the Turkhsh and | :16:21. | :16:25. | |
Greek Cypriots as we hurt otrselves and our visit, there is poshtivity | :16:26. | :16:29. | |
up EA have been on many vishts before, but this is a time where | :16:30. | :16:36. | |
together they are making good progress. I'll want to wish them the | :16:37. | :16:40. | |
very best in those endeavors. I think it is important that we see a | :16:41. | :16:46. | |
lot of Turkey in this whole situation, and need for proper | :16:47. | :16:49. | |
Corporation. That is why thd opening up of the ports in addition to | :16:50. | :16:53. | |
Turkey is good. What it would mean is that if they properly relove the | :16:54. | :16:59. | |
troops from the island and `lso properly recognise what is hmportant | :17:00. | :17:04. | |
which is the protocol and the customs union which would, out of | :17:05. | :17:09. | |
the ports of Famagusta, that would allow proper recognition of goods, | :17:10. | :17:14. | |
trade, that would move obst`cles for Turkey's path to the Europe`n Union. | :17:15. | :17:21. | |
These are important aspects for a proper contents of settlement. I | :17:22. | :17:27. | |
look forward before I do, I defer to the intervention of my honotrable | :17:28. | :17:32. | |
friend. One we went, we saw churches desecrated, and Graves robbdd. Does | :17:33. | :17:39. | |
he not think that a settlemdnt would help the people of Cyprus to rebuild | :17:40. | :17:47. | |
their religious tolerance, `nd understanding over all the | :17:48. | :17:53. | |
communities on the island? There is much sadness around what is a | :17:54. | :17:58. | |
beautiful island, that is why there are humanitarian issues, such as the | :17:59. | :18:01. | |
issue of cultural destruction, such as may discussed in the deb`te in | :18:02. | :18:07. | |
finding truth for those lovdd ones who still do not know inforlation | :18:08. | :18:12. | |
about their missing relativds. These are humanitarian issues as well as | :18:13. | :18:16. | |
Famagusta is a humanitarian issue that demands our attention `nd | :18:17. | :18:21. | |
demand justice. I look forw`rd to the Minister in response indicating | :18:22. | :18:23. | |
the government support for this motion. What he would have had as he | :18:24. | :18:28. | |
indicates he does not need to be tubal because he would have the | :18:29. | :18:31. | |
backing of the Prime Ministdr in giving that support. On the 29th of | :18:32. | :18:36. | |
June, 2012 will to me about the petition which reference wh`t is in | :18:37. | :18:40. | |
effect emotion before the House He said," we fully agree with the | :18:41. | :18:44. | |
principle behind it that me`sures to build confidence within the | :18:45. | :18:47. | |
communities of Cyprus can h`ve great value, facilitating efforts toward a | :18:48. | :18:51. | |
competent of settlement. We fully support security resolutions | :18:52. | :18:56. | |
including the security resolution 550, and 79, there is the Prime | :18:57. | :19:01. | |
Minister's backing already. The ministers need to say he agrees with | :19:02. | :19:05. | |
the Prime Minister and will support this motion. Time is short, Madam | :19:06. | :19:09. | |
Deputy Beeker, the other melbers who wish to continue this debatd. A | :19:10. | :19:14. | |
number of issues that though perhaps beyond this motion with the leave of | :19:15. | :19:22. | |
the deputy speaker. But, as I left Cyprus along with many of mx | :19:23. | :19:25. | |
honourable friend over the weekend, we may well help is a lot of other | :19:26. | :19:32. | |
people do, they leave with souvenirs, they may try to leave | :19:33. | :19:36. | |
with tortoises. I have a shopping list of questions for the Prime | :19:37. | :19:41. | |
Minister which I wish to rahse here. On Famagusta will be governlent | :19:42. | :19:46. | |
support access to experts to assess the damage and requirements for | :19:47. | :19:51. | |
restoration and regeneration? If we are serious about the return of | :19:52. | :19:55. | |
Famagusta, we should be serhous about getting experts in thdir now. | :19:56. | :19:59. | |
On the settlement in relation to our powers, will bring indicate that | :20:00. | :20:02. | |
external countries guaranteds have no future following comprehdnsive | :20:03. | :20:07. | |
settlements? Does the government stand ready to help, followhng | :20:08. | :20:12. | |
negotiations where they may be intractable issues which repuire | :20:13. | :20:19. | |
Turkish corporations? Where there has indeed added the Speaker been | :20:20. | :20:23. | |
good progress, Camino progrdss with the committee for missing pdrsons is | :20:24. | :20:29. | |
an in providing conflict whhch across the world in working with | :20:30. | :20:35. | |
committees and directing it but also a lab technicians from both | :20:36. | :20:37. | |
communities. Carrying out painstaking work to find information | :20:38. | :20:43. | |
and DNA to link with missing persons. There is going to be good | :20:44. | :20:46. | |
news that the Turkish army have provided access for 30 military | :20:47. | :20:52. | |
bases over the next three ydars to provide important information. Will | :20:53. | :20:57. | |
the government go and continue to ask the Turkish government to | :20:58. | :20:59. | |
provide information which is still kept in those archives to about | :21:00. | :21:03. | |
those missing relatives who come every July to rally hair in | :21:04. | :21:08. | |
Parliament. Can you provide them with information to Turkey `bout | :21:09. | :21:14. | |
their loved ones, will we h`ve information in those archivds? By | :21:15. | :21:16. | |
the Deputy Speaker, I don't expect to speak too much longer. In | :21:17. | :21:20. | |
conclusion, this is a motion which is a historic motion, what ht does | :21:21. | :21:25. | |
is it that clearly not just a general debate, it said verx | :21:26. | :21:29. | |
clearly, crystal clear that we stand" are behind it can't handle | :21:30. | :21:34. | |
settlement that is good for Cyprus, that is good for the region, and is | :21:35. | :21:38. | |
good for Britain. The way wd can do that and provide reality is to | :21:39. | :21:43. | |
provide justice to Famagust` and return Famagusta to its lawful | :21:44. | :21:50. | |
inhabitants. Hear, hear! I want to start by congratulating my | :21:51. | :21:53. | |
honourable friend for securhng this debate. This is an extremelx timely | :21:54. | :22:00. | |
debate, six colleagues and lyself travelled to the divided island of | :22:01. | :22:03. | |
Cyprus just last week. It w`s not my first visit to the country, indeed | :22:04. | :22:07. | |
it was not the first time that I had actually crossed the border and gone | :22:08. | :22:11. | |
into the occupied territory. It was my first time I had the opportunity | :22:12. | :22:16. | |
to travel to Famagusta. I could speak about many issues that were | :22:17. | :22:20. | |
raised during that trip, thd committee of missing persons which | :22:21. | :22:24. | |
people found very moving, and indeed stolen artifacts or access to | :22:25. | :22:28. | |
property or indeed I'm. I'm going to focus on two areas. I want to make | :22:29. | :22:31. | |
two points during this debate this evening. Percy, I want to mdntion | :22:32. | :22:35. | |
the observation I had of thd situation which I've found truly | :22:36. | :22:40. | |
inexplicable on the island. Secondly, I want to talk about the | :22:41. | :22:43. | |
effect of the huge military presence in the occupied zone. The fhrst | :22:44. | :22:47. | |
issue I want to raise is thd ages particularly at Famagusta. To | :22:48. | :22:52. | |
witness what I can only describe as a ghost town frozen in time, that is | :22:53. | :22:57. | |
Famagusta, would be interesting if they did not affect so many people | :22:58. | :23:01. | |
in the here and now today. Hn fact, there are many people who are not | :23:02. | :23:05. | |
able to visit graves of thehr relatives and friends. In f`ct, | :23:06. | :23:07. | |
there are many people who are not able to visit graves of thehr | :23:08. | :23:10. | |
relatives and friends stop `gain at not able to on the subject of | :23:11. | :23:21. | |
visiting graves, there are 371 many conscripts of this country buried in | :23:22. | :23:27. | |
wings keep that we must makd sure we have access to, and that after that | :23:28. | :23:34. | |
graveyard. These men were khlled many by Greek Cypriot terrorist | :23:35. | :23:43. | |
fighters, we must not forget that. Indeed, he is correct, in f`ct is | :23:44. | :23:48. | |
the record shows I have askdd from entry questions upon this issue | :23:49. | :23:52. | |
because we indeed have our own graves in the country. What I am not | :23:53. | :23:56. | |
going to open a debate upon the historical aspects of the island, we | :23:57. | :23:58. | |
realise there are many sites do all the stories that we tell. Btt, we | :23:59. | :24:03. | |
are very concerned about thd graves of all people on the island, be it | :24:04. | :24:09. | |
Turkish Cypriots were indeed Greek Cypriots, or indeed British service | :24:10. | :24:12. | |
personnel who died and were buried on the island. But, as I was saying, | :24:13. | :24:17. | |
there are such people that H can certainly name this debate. These | :24:18. | :24:20. | |
are not people I have pluckdd out of the air, but people such as Maria | :24:21. | :24:24. | |
who was a regular visitor to the beach. Or Antonius who was denied | :24:25. | :24:31. | |
access to his grandfather's property, these are all real people | :24:32. | :24:37. | |
with stories to tell Madam Deputy Speaker. Because of the beh`viour of | :24:38. | :24:40. | |
the authorities that we havd experienced I am not going to reveal | :24:41. | :24:43. | |
their surnames because I fedl that would be further repercussions | :24:44. | :24:46. | |
against these people. What H found striking about visiting Fam`gusta | :24:47. | :24:51. | |
was not just the hundreds of residential, commercial properties | :24:52. | :24:54. | |
that lie empty but the simple access to the beach. This is something that | :24:55. | :25:00. | |
the members that they can all relate to, having coastal constitudncies. | :25:01. | :25:04. | |
Walk along the stand in Fam`gusta means that you have to enter a | :25:05. | :25:08. | |
untested area alongside the overbearing corrugated barb wire | :25:09. | :25:13. | |
fences which includes the blocks that surround the beach, giving it a | :25:14. | :25:18. | |
sense of a militarized zone. This bike extends across and alongside | :25:19. | :25:22. | |
the beach until it makes a curvature of the water edge then enters the | :25:23. | :25:26. | |
sea, preventing anyone from living on the coast. This and sure that | :25:27. | :25:33. | |
there is no access. For somdone who grew up on the beach, liter`lly I | :25:34. | :25:38. | |
find that really difficult to explain. Even if someone cotld | :25:39. | :25:42. | |
navigate this military presdnce the watchtower, someone would come out | :25:43. | :25:45. | |
and shout at you to get awax from the fans and certainly not to take | :25:46. | :25:50. | |
any pictures. Now, I wonder if the Turkish authorities are emb`rrassed | :25:51. | :25:54. | |
by that site? I leave it to you Madam Deputy Speaker, and other | :25:55. | :25:57. | |
members of the chamber to ddcide if that is self. I certainly think that | :25:58. | :26:03. | |
it is. Then, the Turkish authorities, I believe in an attempt | :26:04. | :26:06. | |
to intimidate us even furthdr, had a presence on the beach of another | :26:07. | :26:10. | |
security personnel, quite a peculiar person in his own shorts and his | :26:11. | :26:14. | |
comb-over long grey hair, who marched around the beach at a great | :26:15. | :26:21. | |
pace, walking closely to us, to intimidate and decide to sed what we | :26:22. | :26:26. | |
were doing. All the time, h`ving an earpiece in his ear where wd could | :26:27. | :26:28. | |
hear the Turkish border guard shouting at him at the top of their | :26:29. | :26:32. | |
voices. It was one of the most peculiar scenes I have everx seen in | :26:33. | :26:37. | |
my life. It is not just the physical environment in Famagusta th`t has | :26:38. | :26:41. | |
been physically manipulated by the Turkish for this, but also the | :26:42. | :26:45. | |
people who have been relocated from mainland Turkey, the settlor is not | :26:46. | :26:47. | |
just the physical environment in Famagusta that has been physically | :26:48. | :26:49. | |
manipulated by the Turkish for this, but also the people who havd been | :26:50. | :26:51. | |
relocated from mainland Turkey, the settlers known in Cyprus, the first | :26:52. | :26:54. | |
official sentenced performed in 1996 showed that there were over 200 | :26:55. | :26:57. | |
people in the occupied terrhtory. A decade later this has incre`sed by | :26:58. | :27:02. | |
another ?65,000. A third census was carried out by the UN in 2001, they | :27:03. | :27:07. | |
showed a population of over 294,000, these results have been | :27:08. | :27:14. | |
disputed by many political parties, trade unions, and indeed local | :27:15. | :27:20. | |
newspapers and associations of undercounting the population because | :27:21. | :27:22. | |
the population because BT and RC have previously said to Turkey that | :27:23. | :27:27. | |
there are over 730 people in the occupied territory in order to gain | :27:28. | :27:31. | |
access to greater number of funds. What we do know as a fact that over | :27:32. | :27:35. | |
50% of these people that cole from the mainland have no common heritage | :27:36. | :27:40. | |
or culture would the indigenous Turkish, or simply use people. I | :27:41. | :27:44. | |
often hear in this chamber, I am sorry the Minister has heard me said | :27:45. | :27:47. | |
to him many times that we hdar about the settlement in Israel and how | :27:48. | :27:52. | |
they are illegal under international law. Answer the Deputy Speaker would | :27:53. | :27:55. | |
be glad to hear I am sorry the Minister has heard me said to him | :27:56. | :27:58. | |
many times that we hear abott the settlement in Israel and how they | :27:59. | :28:00. | |
are illegal under international law. Answer the Deputy Speaker would be | :28:01. | :28:02. | |
glad to hear, or its actions are clear breach for the fourth Geneva | :28:03. | :28:05. | |
Convention. Article 49 makes it clear that an occupying powdr may | :28:06. | :28:11. | |
not force beat the board protected persons or deport them transfer | :28:12. | :28:14. | |
parts of its own civilian population into occupied territory. Turkey has | :28:15. | :28:19. | |
done this, Turkey has clearly reached its convention and there can | :28:20. | :28:23. | |
be no dispute that immigrathon to the occupied territory is unlawful. | :28:24. | :28:28. | |
What is not disputed is the number of Turkish troops in the North. In | :28:29. | :28:33. | |
2013, and the Cyprus Center for city chick studies estimate that there | :28:34. | :28:38. | |
were 74,000 troops in the occupied territory of Cyprus. In an `rea of | :28:39. | :28:43. | |
1295 square miles. That there were 74,000 troops in the occupidd | :28:44. | :28:46. | |
territory of Cyprus. In an `rea of 1295 square miles. Madam Arly | :28:47. | :28:52. | |
service personnel, we have ` landmass of ADP thousand 700 square | :28:53. | :28:58. | |
miles, the comparison is obvious. It illustrates to keep us by the | :28:59. | :29:02. | |
termination in Cyprus in mahntaining its military presence. Indedd, on | :29:03. | :29:07. | |
that today we witness the over the top display of soldiers, trtcks as | :29:08. | :29:12. | |
traffic was stopped to allow Army personnel to travel to Famagusta. It | :29:13. | :29:17. | |
was clear this was purely a public display of such weaponry. Dte to the | :29:18. | :29:25. | |
side and to more than to intimidate the Turkish and separate population, | :29:26. | :29:28. | |
not to seek the removal of the Turkish army in the occupied | :29:29. | :29:33. | |
territory. Madam Deputy Spe`ker in conclusion, the European Parliament | :29:34. | :29:37. | |
has repeatedly voiced its stpport for the return of Famagusta to its | :29:38. | :29:43. | |
lawful inhabitants. The resdttlement of Famagusta on the basis of the UN | :29:44. | :29:46. | |
Security Council resolutions will have a positive effect or a | :29:47. | :29:50. | |
comprehensive viable solution to the Cyprus problem as it will create a | :29:51. | :29:56. | |
tangible example of cooperation and coexistence between Greek and | :29:57. | :30:01. | |
Turkish Cypriots on the isl`nd, and serve as a symbol of future harmony | :30:02. | :30:05. | |
and prosperity is. Famagust` may be a forbidden occupied town in Cyprus, | :30:06. | :30:10. | |
but it will never be a forgotten community by its lawful inh`bitants | :30:11. | :30:11. | |
and befriend it has I congratulate my honourabld friend | :30:12. | :30:21. | |
on securing this debate. I congratulate my honourable friend on | :30:22. | :30:25. | |
his brilliantly though not brilliant leadership of the delegation I was a | :30:26. | :30:30. | |
member of. I should tell thd House that I have found none of mx college | :30:31. | :30:35. | |
two colleagues... I should `lso say my honourable friend exhibited true | :30:36. | :30:43. | |
leadership. I would say to him that if ever it honourable friend were | :30:44. | :30:49. | |
fit for office, he is. I am also delighted to see my honourable | :30:50. | :30:56. | |
friend the Minister is going to be responding to this debate, H know | :30:57. | :31:01. | |
him well. He is not a minister who will respond with a lot of waffle. I | :31:02. | :31:06. | |
anticipate he is going to agree with everything that has been sahd during | :31:07. | :31:12. | |
this debate, and given the fact that the former secretary will bd | :31:13. | :31:17. | |
visiting Cyprus in a short while. The timing could not be better. | :31:18. | :31:22. | |
Madam Deputy Speaker, when H first became a member of Parliament I was | :31:23. | :31:26. | |
taken to the island of Cyprts, I have no constituency interest at | :31:27. | :31:31. | |
all. Very few Cypriots, whether they be Greek or Turkish, live in my | :31:32. | :31:39. | |
constituency. I cannot belidve, visiting the island, this thny | :31:40. | :31:43. | |
island that it was divided by a landline. As far as Famagusta is | :31:44. | :31:49. | |
concerned, which at this debate is focusing on, I can best likdn it to | :31:50. | :31:58. | |
great expectations. It is vdry much like... It is very distresshng when | :31:59. | :32:05. | |
you visit this area to see these buildings which have stood hn tea | :32:06. | :32:16. | |
and decaying since 1970 for a. Madam Deputy Speaker when we started on | :32:17. | :32:22. | |
the visit I was very cynical about the prospects of the settlelent I | :32:23. | :32:26. | |
had heard it all before. As we all know there is nothing in between if | :32:27. | :32:33. | |
they live on the north or south side, it is limited for the country | :32:34. | :32:37. | |
start to intervene in that ht becomes challenging. I have to say | :32:38. | :32:44. | |
to the House that I was so hmpressed with the meetings we had, | :32:45. | :32:48. | |
particularly with what the `cting president had to say and wh`t the | :32:49. | :32:55. | |
negotiator had to say that H really think it will be the last thme any | :32:56. | :33:01. | |
British Parliament would visit the island when it's divided. I am very | :33:02. | :33:05. | |
optimistic that in two or three months' time we will have long seen | :33:06. | :33:12. | |
a united Ireland. I congrattlate my honourable friend again for his | :33:13. | :33:15. | |
timing of our trip. -- I went. We can go back to 1970 and say it was | :33:16. | :33:24. | |
eight disaster that never should have happened. -- not to. -, 19 4. | :33:25. | :33:33. | |
It is a tragedy that it happened than in all these years latdr it has | :33:34. | :33:37. | |
not been solved. I decided ht is no good going on about the past, we | :33:38. | :33:42. | |
should draw a line underneath it as Cypriots on both sides have decided | :33:43. | :33:46. | |
to do. I was very pleased on the 18th of September this year our | :33:47. | :33:51. | |
Prime Minister met with the Greek Cypriot president. I believdd that | :33:52. | :34:01. | |
there is a need for Turkey to send specific signal the specific actions | :34:02. | :34:08. | |
that would enhance the ongohng settlement process. The recdnt | :34:09. | :34:14. | |
election of the new leader on the northern side is widely seen as | :34:15. | :34:20. | |
something that has signific`ntly increased the prospects of the | :34:21. | :34:25. | |
solution. Does my honourabld friend agree with me that this also | :34:26. | :34:30. | |
presents the opportunity for the missing persons, perhaps to be | :34:31. | :34:38. | |
relocated and identified? And see for ourselves the bones that were | :34:39. | :34:46. | |
strewn across and being sorted in the laboratory of Greek and Cypriot | :34:47. | :34:54. | |
persons. This to be something that is a priority for both sides to come | :34:55. | :34:59. | |
together so that those who did lose loved ones can lay them to rest I | :35:00. | :35:05. | |
am going to agree with my honourable friend. I am going to come to that | :35:06. | :35:10. | |
point in a moment because I had not seen the details of the DNA testing | :35:11. | :35:14. | |
that was going on with the bones. I want to come back to the eldction of | :35:15. | :35:18. | |
the new leader. His first act on assuming office was to... For | :35:19. | :35:24. | |
visitors to northern Cyprus, something that long needed to | :35:25. | :35:31. | |
happened. That is a positivd move. Of coarse there are obstaclds to | :35:32. | :35:34. | |
overcome, such as government, security, territory as my honourable | :35:35. | :35:40. | |
friend have mentioned, refugees If relations continue to be positive | :35:41. | :35:45. | |
and they seem to be positivd I am optimistic that with the support of | :35:46. | :35:49. | |
the UK, our support we were told over again is crucial. Therd can be | :35:50. | :35:57. | |
a fairly swift decision in 2-3 months. The potential impact on | :35:58. | :36:06. | |
Greek Cypriots, you cannot overestimate it. It would bd very | :36:07. | :36:14. | |
significant indeed. Famagusta will be a winner for Greek Cypriots. It | :36:15. | :36:21. | |
is an important humanitarian move that will allow the return of 4 ,000 | :36:22. | :36:26. | |
people to their homes. , not to the point that my honourable frhend said | :36:27. | :36:32. | |
about missing persons. I did not know if one of my honourabld friends | :36:33. | :36:38. | |
want to intervene, but I thhnk it is about 1500 Greek Cypriots mhssing, | :36:39. | :36:43. | |
about 500 Turkish Cypriots lissing. I think we were all shocked at the | :36:44. | :36:50. | |
detail of the word that goes into tracing these missing peopld. When | :36:51. | :36:56. | |
we were taking into the labs if we had had a loved one whose bones were | :36:57. | :37:00. | |
somewhere in the world it would have been too overwhelming for as. We | :37:01. | :37:06. | |
would step back because we did not know any of the people, but I had no | :37:07. | :37:12. | |
idea that the detail that wdnt on. The House should know this hs a very | :37:13. | :37:21. | |
expensive operation. Another department distressed on thhs issue, | :37:22. | :37:25. | |
if there is anyone who could perhaps land some financial support it would | :37:26. | :37:30. | |
mean a great deal to those concerned. He is looking up the work | :37:31. | :37:41. | |
of the buy communal committde on missing persons. | :37:42. | :37:48. | |
It is encouraging that they will be visiting that laboratory so he can | :37:49. | :37:57. | |
see how we can provide how luch support as necessary to help support | :37:58. | :38:01. | |
the information that these relatives need. He makes a wonderful point. | :38:02. | :38:08. | |
He's absolutely right about the timing of the visit. I do hope that | :38:09. | :38:13. | |
although it was explained to us we will never find all of the lissing | :38:14. | :38:17. | |
persons, it would mean so mtch if we could continue with the work in the | :38:18. | :38:21. | |
foreseeable future. Speaking as someone who's the | :38:22. | :38:35. | |
chairman... And knows all the work that goes on interesting people it | :38:36. | :38:40. | |
is not that difficult if yot get the DNA off of a bone and peopld who are | :38:41. | :38:47. | |
close relatives have their DNA taken. There are two parts to it. | :38:48. | :38:51. | |
That can be done quite quickly underneath the United Nations. My | :38:52. | :38:56. | |
honourable friend makes an dxcellent point. I think it was explahned to | :38:57. | :39:01. | |
us as a difficulty that somd of the burial grounds are now under | :39:02. | :39:08. | |
multi-story buildings. They are under housing. It really is in such | :39:09. | :39:16. | |
a straightforward thing. I `m grateful for him giving way. Can I | :39:17. | :39:19. | |
remind him it is not just where they're located some of thel have | :39:20. | :39:24. | |
been dispersed by wild anim`ls, some have been washed away. And those | :39:25. | :39:26. | |
that have been bleached of the Sun lose their DNA. My honourable friend | :39:27. | :39:34. | |
reminds me of that specific point. To the experts are doing a fantastic | :39:35. | :39:44. | |
job, but there's a limit to how far they can go on this. To touch on the | :39:45. | :39:46. | |
other issue that my honourable friend mentioned in terms of the | :39:47. | :39:55. | |
graves. He I was shocked and horrified when we visited the graves | :39:56. | :40:05. | |
to see the Greek Cypriot absolutely vandalized, cross is broken and | :40:06. | :40:08. | |
everything dug up to see if there were any riches, like the Egyptians | :40:09. | :40:14. | |
used to have. And yet the Ttrkish graves right opposite were capped in | :40:15. | :40:21. | |
magnificent order. This is `ll done through European Union fundhng. And | :40:22. | :40:26. | |
absolute scandal! Added instlt. The act think the House will be well | :40:27. | :40:33. | |
directed to find out more information about this. This is an | :40:34. | :40:38. | |
issue, I know my honourable friend try to get a group of volunteers to | :40:39. | :40:42. | |
go over there and do somethhng about it, but this is a relativelx small | :40:43. | :40:46. | |
matter with can be brought right very quickly. But the lady who took | :40:47. | :40:52. | |
us to see where her loved ones were, she broke down in our arms. My | :40:53. | :40:57. | |
honourable friend comforted her Yes, my honourable friend also will | :40:58. | :41:03. | |
agree with me that it is not only the graveyards, but the churches | :41:04. | :41:13. | |
that have been destroyed. It is all out of the oppression of people and | :41:14. | :41:18. | |
something should be done to rectify this. Absolutely. To seal one of the | :41:19. | :41:24. | |
churches turned into a stable, how insulting is that. If only we had | :41:25. | :41:29. | |
had the Ark bishop or his ddputy visiting with us on that to give a | :41:30. | :41:34. | |
trip that would have made it even better. In conclusion, I do think we | :41:35. | :41:39. | |
could do something as far as the graves are concerned. I belheve that | :41:40. | :41:44. | |
we need to endorse the forehgn, wild mission which is we work with Cyprus | :41:45. | :41:51. | |
to implement policy on Europe as a single market. We support all | :41:52. | :41:59. | |
parties in finding a comprehensive settlement in Cyprus. We work | :42:00. | :42:02. | |
together to beat international crime and threats to purchase | :42:03. | :42:08. | |
international security. I would like to commend the Cypriot preshdent for | :42:09. | :42:10. | |
all of his efforts and unifhcation of Cyprus, if all goes well the | :42:11. | :42:17. | |
island could be a wonderful model of how coexistence could be between | :42:18. | :42:23. | |
Muslims and Christians. Cyprus now has a role opportunity to rdach an | :42:24. | :42:28. | |
agreement and that would be a wonderful thing for Europe `nd the | :42:29. | :42:30. | |
world. I have not been to Cyprus. Ht sounds | :42:31. | :42:44. | |
as though I missed a fun trhp. It sounds like they had a positive | :42:45. | :42:47. | |
experience in the last couple of weeks. I have to say to the | :42:48. | :42:54. | |
honourable Lady that it was not done to see graves destroyed and to meet | :42:55. | :43:01. | |
people and go to beaches whdre there's a great big barrier in the | :43:02. | :43:06. | |
middle. -- find. It was not a fun trip for either myself or any of my | :43:07. | :43:11. | |
colleagues. Can I think the honourable Lady for that | :43:12. | :43:17. | |
clarification. I guess one could fill a little excluded if one was | :43:18. | :43:19. | |
missing and not having visited with the group. The thing is that this | :43:20. | :43:25. | |
question, there is no divishon between the particular, there should | :43:26. | :43:30. | |
be an all party Parliamentary think, there is no division on the | :43:31. | :43:34. | |
fact that we all want to sed the same thing. One cannot help but feel | :43:35. | :43:39. | |
a little left out about somd of the debates this evening. Let md get | :43:40. | :43:43. | |
back to the Cypriots in my community. The contribution of the | :43:44. | :43:53. | |
Cypriot community have made to business, local government, | :43:54. | :43:58. | |
business, IT facilities and services, to our diet where the | :43:59. | :44:04. | |
Mediterranean diet and the `rrival of fresh fruit and veggies hnto our | :44:05. | :44:09. | |
street began the whole revolution towards a healthy way of life. | :44:10. | :44:15. | |
Moving away from just the Staples love fish and chips into wonderful | :44:16. | :44:21. | |
vegetables, olive oil and so on I know that the right honourable | :44:22. | :44:25. | |
gentleman who began this debate and had the idea and sought the support | :44:26. | :44:32. | |
for it will agree that we are so enraged in North London bec`use of | :44:33. | :44:36. | |
what the Cypriots have brought us in terms of that diet in the 1870s and | :44:37. | :44:43. | |
onwards. On a more serious note the right honourable lady is quhte right | :44:44. | :44:48. | |
to say how much suffering h`s been there. There has been suffering on | :44:49. | :44:52. | |
both sides. And older Cypriot had said to me how much they wish to see | :44:53. | :44:57. | |
before the end of their livds, some kind of hope. But it would really | :44:58. | :45:03. | |
for them has been a durable experience. They want to sed that | :45:04. | :45:08. | |
for the children and grandchildren. -- terrible. They want to sde | :45:09. | :45:13. | |
themselves do it, not just pass away knowing that at some point ht will | :45:14. | :45:16. | |
happen, but they want to sed before they actually pass on. We do have | :45:17. | :45:25. | |
these places, like Famagust`. We got close to a settlement is like | :45:26. | :45:35. | |
decades ago. Unfortunately,... Would you agree with me that surgdry | :45:36. | :45:40. | |
during our visit last week one of the important features was the fact | :45:41. | :45:46. | |
that the Greek Cypriots and the Turkish Cypriots who do want to live | :45:47. | :45:49. | |
together and are happy to lhve together. It is the issue of | :45:50. | :45:54. | |
Turkey, the Turkish governmdnt that stops that? Certainly, both my | :45:55. | :46:04. | |
Turkish speaking and Greek speaking friends, colleagues are alw`ys | :46:05. | :46:11. | |
talking about Cyprus. We ard the friends of Cyprus, the placd of It | :46:12. | :46:19. | |
is important to always remelber that togetherness and the fact that it is | :46:20. | :46:23. | |
the formalities. We need to bring the formalities together, wd need to | :46:24. | :46:26. | |
have the Cabinet secretaries and live up to the reality which I | :46:27. | :46:34. | |
believe we can do. She's emphasizing this is a cross party motion | :46:35. | :46:39. | |
supported across the House. He it is, cross party support and as | :46:40. | :46:48. | |
friends of Cyprus. Cypriots will work together and agree and not | :46:49. | :46:54. | |
spread off, on this particular issue of Famagusta we have had wrdaked | :46:55. | :47:01. | |
citizens signing petitions saying this is a good measure. That is a | :47:02. | :47:08. | |
particular point we need to keep emphasizing and encouraged support | :47:09. | :47:12. | |
on. That is right. What we `re working for is showing a huge amount | :47:13. | :47:20. | |
of support that is impossible for other governments to ignore. Becomes | :47:21. | :47:24. | |
the most important place, Cxprus itself. We give the example to other | :47:25. | :47:36. | |
regional governments. I just wanted to conclude with this, the fact that | :47:37. | :47:42. | |
we must not allow the disagreements that there have been in the past, I | :47:43. | :47:46. | |
mentioned this briefly, arotnd the land. We must put that one out | :47:47. | :47:50. | |
there. We want to get close to settlement. I I hope we can assist | :47:51. | :47:57. | |
with the friends that we do have. I can see other friends who h`ve come | :47:58. | :48:04. | |
to speak as well. I know my right honourable friend Allen was also key | :48:05. | :48:12. | |
in working with colleagues `cross for many years on the environment | :48:13. | :48:16. | |
and other questions. I hope is a new member of Parliament, the commitment | :48:17. | :48:21. | |
I can now join the table. I am pleased to see their is one other | :48:22. | :48:25. | |
white honourable lady in our midst as well. Because my experience at | :48:26. | :48:31. | |
some of my meetings to date has been quite lonely. I look forward to | :48:32. | :48:36. | |
seeing her at future events to talk about the unification of Cyprus | :48:37. | :48:43. | |
Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. Let me first date to be on able lady I | :48:44. | :48:50. | |
believe I am right in saying it has been passed my honourable friend... | :48:51. | :49:00. | |
Either I or her friend will make sure she has the chance to see | :49:01. | :49:05. | |
herself. Some colleagues have seen a burning wall, not everyone has seen | :49:06. | :49:09. | |
the green line in Cyprus. Dhe did the right to the centre of one of | :49:10. | :49:16. | |
Europe's major cities there is a barricade. There are several yards | :49:17. | :49:22. | |
of the parent land, buildings going back to -- 1974. It is quitd | :49:23. | :49:34. | |
extraordinary. I think unless colleagues have seen it for | :49:35. | :49:37. | |
themselves they cannot understand how desperate this is. Madal Deputy | :49:38. | :49:47. | |
Speaker it is quite wrong that since 1974, since the Turkish inv`sion of | :49:48. | :49:53. | |
the northern part of Cyprus a member state now of the European Union | :49:54. | :50:00. | |
Cyprus, has been occupied bx an aspirant of another State of the | :50:01. | :50:06. | |
European Union, Turkey. Successive attempts to resolve wrongs has felt. | :50:07. | :50:14. | |
-- felt. It has not been so because Turkish Cypriots and Greek Cypriots | :50:15. | :50:18. | |
get along, they do. Just as much as anyone else does. They lived happily | :50:19. | :50:24. | |
side-by-side and there was ` time, a generation and a half ago where | :50:25. | :50:32. | |
Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots use the same bars and cafes, they | :50:33. | :50:38. | |
played sports together. MA coexisted in harmony, and the same villages. | :50:39. | :50:46. | |
-- and they coexisted. A generation and a half down the line, that is | :50:47. | :50:51. | |
beginning to change, sadly. Because now there is a generation of | :50:52. | :50:58. | |
children, some of the children of Turkish Cypriots and some of Greek | :50:59. | :51:05. | |
Cypriots who have never known the other side, who has never spoken to | :51:06. | :51:08. | |
Turkish or Greek. You have never shared each other's cultures, Lizaad | :51:09. | :51:18. | |
very similar. I will come to Famagusta, I am trying to sdt this | :51:19. | :51:19. | |
in context. I have been visited in workhng on | :51:20. | :51:40. | |
the Cyprus problem since 1983 when I first came into this house. There is | :51:41. | :51:49. | |
an opportunity, a window of opportunity now. The now le`der of | :51:50. | :51:59. | |
Northern Cyprus used to be the mayor... The reason that is | :52:00. | :52:08. | |
important is because while dveryone else was fighting and not gdtting | :52:09. | :52:15. | |
along, the two got together in the dead of the night and land something | :52:16. | :52:24. | |
for the whole country. Becatse you cannot have two sewage systdms for | :52:25. | :52:30. | |
one place. They even plan to the road system so that one day looking | :52:31. | :52:36. | |
down the road when there'll be a settlement, the roads with join up. | :52:37. | :52:43. | |
And eight what does. -- and they would. I do not believe the man who | :52:44. | :52:47. | |
was capable of that degree of foresight and cooperation is not | :52:48. | :52:52. | |
capable of reaching a deal the current president of the Republic of | :52:53. | :52:59. | |
Cyprus. It can happen and it should happen. In the interest of the piece | :53:00. | :53:04. | |
of all of the Middle East and the whole of Europe it must happen. For | :53:05. | :53:11. | |
it to happen, unfortunately, Turkey has got to agree. Recently, I have | :53:12. | :53:20. | |
seen the wealthy Matt put ott in Turkey. For very obvious re`sons. We | :53:21. | :53:24. | |
need Turkey, they are taking thousands and thousands of refugees | :53:25. | :53:28. | |
from Syria and they're lookhng at going back for help. The idda that | :53:29. | :53:33. | |
you can fast track Turkey into the European Union without settling the | :53:34. | :53:39. | |
Cyprus problem is a nonstarter. It simply is a redline or should I say | :53:40. | :53:49. | |
Greenland. -- green line. Wd have to, my honourable friend zone both | :53:50. | :53:56. | |
benches have to use their bdst endeavors to seek to make stre that | :53:57. | :54:01. | |
Turkey comes to the negotiation table and does the Dell. Yes, the | :54:02. | :54:06. | |
honourable lady was right to say that without the settlement of the | :54:07. | :54:10. | |
property issues there will be no settlement. Without the rights of | :54:11. | :54:14. | |
the freedom of movement, thdre will be no settlement. Without hdr mobile | :54:15. | :54:22. | |
of Turkish troops from northern Cyprus there will be no settlement. | :54:23. | :54:32. | |
-- removal. Imagine if we h`d said, after the war, we're to keep troops | :54:33. | :54:41. | |
there, how would that Phil? Why should the Cypriots, Greek `nd | :54:42. | :54:46. | |
Turkish, why should they settle For the presence of foreign troops, one | :54:47. | :54:52. | |
for Drupal on their land without invitation. Feticide invitation that | :54:53. | :54:58. | |
is a different matter. I believe the Greek troops and the Turkish troops | :54:59. | :55:04. | |
have to lead the Army. The risk gets harder, the property is difficult | :55:05. | :55:08. | |
because most of the land is built on who owns those houses or who owns | :55:09. | :55:17. | |
the land. It is not going to be easy, it will take money and time. | :55:18. | :55:23. | |
But it has to have been. Thd bottom line is by communal, by zon`l | :55:24. | :55:31. | |
configuration. It is achiev`ble We are with you and we will st`y with | :55:32. | :55:33. | |
you for as long as it takes. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker, I | :55:34. | :55:44. | |
too would join with others hn congratulating my Honorable friend, | :55:45. | :55:48. | |
not only in securing this ddbate but in his excellent leadership of the | :55:49. | :55:54. | |
dedication which visit to Cxprus a few days ago. For me it was my first | :55:55. | :56:00. | |
visit, not just to Famagust` but to Cyprus itself. It is a beautiful | :56:01. | :56:10. | |
island, the beach at Famagusta, I give weight to my Honorable friend. | :56:11. | :56:16. | |
Does he not believe that Cornwell comes above this place? No, I am | :56:17. | :56:21. | |
afraid I cannot agree of my Honorable friend as I am sure she | :56:22. | :56:28. | |
would anticipate. Madam Deptty Speaker as always in countrhes where | :56:29. | :56:33. | |
there is conflict and divishon. Is the ordinary people who suffer. We | :56:34. | :56:38. | |
have the privilege of meeting a number of those over the last few | :56:39. | :56:46. | |
days. Those who suffer what is already being described by ly | :56:47. | :56:49. | |
Honorable friend from South and having witnessed the desecr`tion of | :56:50. | :56:56. | |
their churches and the vand`lism of their graveyards, leaves a permanent | :56:57. | :57:02. | |
scar on them. We must do all we can to retrieve that situation. It is | :57:03. | :57:06. | |
not just of course damaging to those individuals what it is also damaging | :57:07. | :57:11. | |
to the heritage and culture of the Cypriot island and people | :57:12. | :57:17. | |
themselves. I will not detahn the House unnecessarily because my | :57:18. | :57:20. | |
Honorable friend from South and is focused on the point about the | :57:21. | :57:25. | |
committee of missing people that I wanted to highlight. It was the | :57:26. | :57:30. | |
second time I have witnessed visiting a similar place th`t we | :57:31. | :57:40. | |
visited on Friday when we s`w the bones and DNA. My Honorable friend | :57:41. | :57:44. | |
from back and am intervened earlier and it was with him that I visited | :57:45. | :57:48. | |
similar work being done with Bosnia this time last year, it is | :57:49. | :57:54. | |
harrowing, and the meticulots work of those involved in it desdrves | :57:55. | :57:59. | |
recognition. As my Honorabld friend from South and pointed out, very | :58:00. | :58:03. | |
modest resources are needed to maintain and enhance this work, I | :58:04. | :58:06. | |
would hope that the governmdnt would look favorably on that requdst. | :58:07. | :58:14. | |
Indeed, it need not necessarily be taxpayer's money, it can be | :58:15. | :58:20. | |
donations in kind from the private sector, I am sure if they work was | :58:21. | :58:26. | |
highlighted to a greater extent donations would be forthcomhng. The | :58:27. | :58:35. | |
other point I think that me`nt a great deal to me was actually | :58:36. | :58:40. | |
visiting the former airport, because it gives you a real, it highlights | :58:41. | :58:48. | |
all the area is frozen in thme to play in terms of this, you lay | :58:49. | :58:57. | |
recall that my Honorable frhend mentioned that the potential of | :58:58. | :59:08. | |
using the goodwill of the Honorable friend and the digger is ond of the | :59:09. | :59:13. | |
most expensive parts of the cave to try and find missing persons, that | :59:14. | :59:17. | |
may be particularly useful hn-kind donation. He highlights exactly the | :59:18. | :59:29. | |
point that I was seeking to meet. To a greater extent if we were to make | :59:30. | :59:33. | |
known what is required, I al sure it donations would be forthcomhng. | :59:34. | :59:38. | |
Returning to the airport, it gives you a real impression of behng | :59:39. | :59:42. | |
frozen in time, as do the elpty and derelict buildings in Famagtsta I | :59:43. | :59:52. | |
speak as someone that used to fly from the airport, I am that old I | :59:53. | :59:56. | |
used to be on the beaches of Famagusta as a boy. It is actually | :59:57. | :00:02. | |
crucially important that we get both areas functioning again, and in that | :00:03. | :00:09. | |
respect I think the United Nations who have manned the green lhne for | :00:10. | :00:15. | |
so long has done so well on it could well have been redeployed to help | :00:16. | :00:18. | |
with Famagusta and open up the airport. I think that will be | :00:19. | :00:21. | |
something to stop them doing the serenity which they are facdd with | :00:22. | :00:30. | |
the last 40 years. I entirely agree, the island is heavily dependent on | :00:31. | :00:35. | |
tourism, every opportunity to enhance that would have surdly been | :00:36. | :00:41. | |
welcomed. Here and at the ahrport as elsewhere we saw bullet scarred | :00:42. | :00:45. | |
buildings which are a const`nt reminder of what happens 41 years | :00:46. | :00:54. | |
ago. Madam Deputy Speaker, what purpose does the continuation of | :00:55. | :01:01. | |
this division serves? I would urge everything possible to encotrage | :01:02. | :01:05. | |
support, the Cypriot people. I give way. Thank you very much. Cxprus is | :01:06. | :01:14. | |
a fantastic country, it is ` fantastic country, the Turkhsh | :01:15. | :01:20. | |
government continually is ignoring US security council resoluthons on | :01:21. | :01:29. | |
these -- UN, can they see what the additional pressure is that the UK | :01:30. | :01:33. | |
Government put on the Turkish government to put this disptte to an | :01:34. | :01:37. | |
end with which is set his f`ctory to everyone? I would hope that it is | :01:38. | :01:45. | |
the Minister who is going to enlighten us as to what addhtional | :01:46. | :01:50. | |
help, support, and encouragdment can take place. It is entirely true that | :01:51. | :01:54. | |
it is the Turkish government that have seemingly been the blockage to | :01:55. | :02:00. | |
this for so many years. As ly Honorable friend said if yot minutes | :02:01. | :02:06. | |
ago, if ever there was the possibility of a settlement, it did | :02:07. | :02:09. | |
seem now that it is within our grasp, anything the British | :02:10. | :02:13. | |
Government can do to help and achieve that must... I give way | :02:14. | :02:23. | |
Would he not agree that there were in fact to midwives to this | :02:24. | :02:30. | |
particular situation, one w`s Turkish, however, in 1974 rd-'s | :02:31. | :02:41. | |
militarism was very much part of the destabilising the archbishop and | :02:42. | :02:46. | |
introducing the military, fortunately for a short perhod of | :02:47. | :02:50. | |
time, never the less one can have a bit to bit of sympathy for Turkey. | :02:51. | :02:54. | |
So far in this debate it has been rather one-sided. Yes, of course it | :02:55. | :03:03. | |
takes two parties, two to t`ngle as it were, it must be the willingness | :03:04. | :03:09. | |
of both sides to come to an agreement, and concludes by urging | :03:10. | :03:12. | |
it again the government to do everything, I think my Honorable | :03:13. | :03:15. | |
friend is looking to intervdne just as I was concluding. Am grateful. | :03:16. | :03:22. | |
While there is some history about Turkish troops invading the Alan, | :03:23. | :03:27. | |
that was 36 years ago, it is time for them to go now. Even thd | :03:28. | :03:31. | |
behaviour it, that we are followed by this directive forces he | :03:32. | :03:35. | |
photographed us, saw our nales, and determined we were leaving `nd what | :03:36. | :03:39. | |
we were doing shows that thd Turkish government have not really changed. | :03:40. | :03:46. | |
Yes, there was a slightly shnister feel to some parts of our trip as a | :03:47. | :03:52. | |
result of being followed and photographed by the Turkish | :03:53. | :03:55. | |
authorities. I give way to the honourable gentleman. I do `pologise | :03:56. | :03:59. | |
for not being here at the opening of the debate, I had other duthes | :04:00. | :04:05. | |
elsewhere. I accept the points he made a few moments ago that for the | :04:06. | :04:12. | |
first time in 41 years, a sdttlement looks closer than it has evdr been. | :04:13. | :04:16. | |
In order for such a settlemdnt to take place, once he accept that | :04:17. | :04:19. | |
there has to be some recognhtion on both sides that there have been | :04:20. | :04:24. | |
feelings on both sides before anyone can move forward? Yes, of course as | :04:25. | :04:32. | |
I mentioned in response to ly Honorable friend a few moments ago. | :04:33. | :04:36. | |
There clearly have been feelings on both sides, it takes two to come | :04:37. | :04:42. | |
together, and bring this situation to a conclusion. We are now within | :04:43. | :04:47. | |
our grasp, we should do everything possible we can to achieve that | :04:48. | :04:59. | |
Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker, let me begin by congratulating the | :05:00. | :05:05. | |
Honorable member for Enfield, Southgate, and his core signatories | :05:06. | :05:09. | |
for tabling this debate. Thd division of Cyprus for over 40 years | :05:10. | :05:16. | |
is often referred to as a frozen conflict. The motion before us | :05:17. | :05:25. | |
tonight gives some sense of how long this situation has lasted for. It | :05:26. | :05:34. | |
talks of the UN resolutions, the high level agreements which had been | :05:35. | :05:36. | |
reached, the efforts which have been made, and as the motion says, all of | :05:37. | :05:44. | |
this effort is aimed at a comprehensive septal. A phr`se | :05:45. | :05:50. | |
continually used, of the division of the island. The aim, as the motion | :05:51. | :05:57. | |
again says, is for a by comlunal, by zonal, federation with political | :05:58. | :06:01. | |
equality guaranteed for the whole population of the island. Yds? Madam | :06:02. | :06:08. | |
Deputy Speaker I would like to put on record that although the conflict | :06:09. | :06:13. | |
may have been frozen for a very long time, one of the reasons it was | :06:14. | :06:17. | |
frozen was because the actions of so many United Nations troops on the | :06:18. | :06:22. | |
green line stopping the conflict breaking out again, it may have been | :06:23. | :06:29. | |
style, it may be boring, for those troops, but my goodness thex have | :06:30. | :06:34. | |
actually stopped people dying. He makes a very good points, I suppose | :06:35. | :06:40. | |
he is gently reminding us that the frozen conflict is better than on | :06:41. | :06:47. | |
frozen conflict, the frozen nature of the conflict is perhaps `t its | :06:48. | :06:52. | |
most graphic in the city of Famagusta. Where homes, hotdls, | :06:53. | :07:03. | |
other buildings have been dormant for 40 years. Trapped in a specific | :07:04. | :07:09. | |
moment in time. Buildings still standing, but devoid of the people, | :07:10. | :07:16. | |
and the changes that give a city life year after year. Overgrown with | :07:17. | :07:20. | |
vegetation, and gradually w`lking away. It is no accident that the | :07:21. | :07:25. | |
term ghost town has been usdd to describe this, but before tonight | :07:26. | :07:31. | |
and Internet's debate. It is of course, right that the city and its | :07:32. | :07:37. | |
properties be returned to their rightful owners. And people left, | :07:38. | :07:42. | |
they thought they would be `ble to return within days or perhaps | :07:43. | :07:47. | |
weeks, they now find that they have had no access to their homes, | :07:48. | :07:54. | |
businesses, and other places of real importance to them for over 40 | :07:55. | :07:59. | |
years. People lost their hotses land, money, access to placds of | :08:00. | :08:04. | |
worship. It is no wonder th`t this enforced absence is a sourcd of such | :08:05. | :08:07. | |
heartbreak and sorrow. To all of those affected, they are right but | :08:08. | :08:13. | |
only to hope but to expect that they will be able to return. The border | :08:14. | :08:20. | |
question is, how this happens and its relationship to eight whder | :08:21. | :08:26. | |
settlement of the Cyprus division and Cyprus issues. On that point, | :08:27. | :08:29. | |
has again been mentioned several times in the debate tonight, they | :08:30. | :08:35. | |
have been better for it, thdn they have been for some time. Both | :08:36. | :08:41. | |
gentlemen seemed genuinely committed to a settlement, and optimism is at | :08:42. | :08:46. | |
a higher level than for manx years. The prospect for progress on this | :08:47. | :08:50. | |
agenda seems stronger now than in the past. I am sure that thd whole | :08:51. | :08:57. | |
households that that applies to the wider issues including this issue of | :08:58. | :09:01. | |
Famagusta which we are focused on tonight. The Foreign Secret`ry is | :09:02. | :09:08. | |
due in Cyprus later this wedk. The Honorable member asked the len, | :09:09. | :09:12. | |
Minister a few questions, I wonder if I could add to his list. Could | :09:13. | :09:18. | |
the Minister tell us what is the government's agenda for this visit | :09:19. | :09:22. | |
later this week? What more the UK Government can do as a friend of | :09:23. | :09:26. | |
Cyprus to encourage momentul and ultimately agreement in the talks? | :09:27. | :09:32. | |
Given the more of the polithcal atmosphere which exists tod`y, | :09:33. | :09:36. | |
compared to the past, how does the Minister CD government using its | :09:37. | :09:42. | |
position to press for a settlement which leads to the island sdt out in | :09:43. | :09:47. | |
the various UN resolutions which have been adopted? Does the Minister | :09:48. | :09:58. | |
believes that in this process, the Man who ate great hope has been | :09:59. | :10:04. | |
presented, is free to make `n agreement, if he so wishes, can he | :10:05. | :10:09. | |
say more about what he belidves the role is in this process. Thhs is | :10:10. | :10:12. | |
particularly important on this issue of Famagusta because it is hmportant | :10:13. | :10:16. | |
to mention that this frozen area is not in the hands of the Cypriots it | :10:17. | :10:22. | |
is in the hands of the Turkhsh military. It is important that we | :10:23. | :10:28. | |
consider this not only the people on the island, but in the Turkhsh will | :10:29. | :10:32. | |
also. Could be minister also comments on what the relationship is | :10:33. | :10:37. | |
between this process and thd other issues which have been raisdd | :10:38. | :10:42. | |
tonight which are under discussion between Turkey and the European | :10:43. | :10:45. | |
Union. Pacific beat the hugd refugee problem which is affecting both | :10:46. | :10:52. | |
Turkey and the European Union, and the question of accession to the EU | :10:53. | :10:57. | |
at any point in the future. How possible is it to make progress on | :10:58. | :11:02. | |
these other issues where thd issue in Cyprus remains as it is. What is | :11:03. | :11:06. | |
their effect on the process taking place in Cyprus itself? Manner that | :11:07. | :11:11. | |
the Speaker, there is much that has taking place in recent months, and | :11:12. | :11:16. | |
days, that is a cause for grief and heartbreak. At the human level, and | :11:17. | :11:22. | |
in huge concern, at the polhtical level. We heard a statement earlier | :11:23. | :11:30. | |
today of the terrible events which took place in Paris a few d`ys ago. | :11:31. | :11:36. | |
We have talked understandably of a generational struggle against | :11:37. | :11:42. | |
Islamist extremism, the world has failed to find a solution to the | :11:43. | :11:46. | |
terrible war in the area. Which has been unfolding for years and is | :11:47. | :11:50. | |
driving much of the refugee problem facing Europe. Yet on this hssue, on | :11:51. | :11:57. | |
this Cyprus issue, there is grounds for hope and optimism to | :11:58. | :12:02. | |
inevitably, those grounds whll be tempered with caution, giving how | :12:03. | :12:05. | |
many setbacks there have bedn over the years. The Honorable melber | :12:06. | :12:11. | |
referred to his involvement for decades in this issue will. As we | :12:12. | :12:17. | |
know from our own experiencd, making peace is hugely dependent on | :12:18. | :12:23. | |
leadership, and among both Greek and Turkish Cypriots we have le`dership | :12:24. | :12:26. | |
in place now which seems colmitted to finding a way forward. Wd on this | :12:27. | :12:32. | |
side of the House would support their efforts and we hope that the | :12:33. | :12:36. | |
UK Government plays as positive a role as possible so that thhs | :12:37. | :12:40. | |
conflict which I referred to as frozen can be resolved and that the | :12:41. | :12:45. | |
island of Cyprus can be unified on the basis of mutual respect for | :12:46. | :12:49. | |
every part of the population of the island. Hear, hear! Thank you very | :12:50. | :13:01. | |
much. And I congratulate thd Backbench Business Committed for | :13:02. | :13:03. | |
taking time to have this important debate? And I begin by apologising | :13:04. | :13:08. | |
for the absence of the Europe minister who has another engagement | :13:09. | :13:14. | |
away from the House? I will do my best to answer the questions from | :13:15. | :13:20. | |
the right Honorable members, any questions that I am unable to answer | :13:21. | :13:27. | |
I will pass on to him, for him to write. It should also be mentioned | :13:28. | :13:29. | |
that the Foreign Secretary will be visiting the country this wdek, in | :13:30. | :13:34. | |
fact this debate very much hs fortuitous in that sense. C`n I | :13:35. | :13:41. | |
begin by congratulating my Honorable friend on securing this important | :13:42. | :13:49. | |
debate at this time. Is a country that I deal with the Middle East and | :13:50. | :13:53. | |
Africa, it is a country and Africa, it is a country am pretty. H do | :13:54. | :14:01. | |
remember all the stomping grounds, up to the Panhandle, and also up to | :14:02. | :14:07. | |
the monastery, it is a trulx beautiful country. Not only that, | :14:08. | :14:13. | |
lots of history, we have gone back to its independence. Of course, it | :14:14. | :14:18. | |
has a place in Greek mythology, birthplace of Aphrodite, and Adonis, | :14:19. | :14:24. | |
it is truly a remarkable pl`ce indeed. To have very fond mdmories, | :14:25. | :14:30. | |
it is where I learn to fly `s a pilot, where I like to parachute, a | :14:31. | :14:35. | |
very beautiful place indeed. Is a place which is associated whth fun, | :14:36. | :14:40. | |
enjoyment. But, there is a serious element which has been highlighted | :14:41. | :14:46. | |
today. Back anytime when I was there, the 1990s, there werd other | :14:47. | :14:49. | |
two other protagonists which would take in this across. There were the | :14:50. | :14:55. | |
two leaders of the day debating the very same matters that we are | :14:56. | :14:59. | |
debating at this moment. So, there is a sense of restriction which how | :15:00. | :15:06. | |
long it has taken to try and resolve this issue which is at the dnd of | :15:07. | :15:11. | |
the date an important part of Europe. My Honorable friend, | :15:12. | :15:17. | |
mentioned the British interdst as well, of course a historical | :15:18. | :15:20. | |
interest, commercial interest not only with tourism, culturally but | :15:21. | :15:25. | |
also security interests as well with the sovereign bases I had the honour | :15:26. | :15:29. | |
to serve with. Also a mention was made of the RAF and the world they | :15:30. | :15:34. | |
are playing, not least with the in the Middle East. This is an | :15:35. | :15:37. | |
important city of relationship that that we have with the country. He | :15:38. | :15:41. | |
mentioned in his letter that he received from the Prime Minhster, I | :15:42. | :15:50. | |
can aptly with my Prime Minhster, on his commitment to a bicamer`l | :15:51. | :15:56. | |
solution, supporting UN resolution 550, and 789, and working towards | :15:57. | :15:58. | |
that important comprehensivd settlement. The my Honorabld friend | :15:59. | :16:08. | |
spoke about very briefly... Would he agree with me also that in order to | :16:09. | :16:15. | |
make progress on that proposal, it is necessary to recognise that there | :16:16. | :16:17. | |
are legitimate grievances on the side of the northern Cypriots that | :16:18. | :16:22. | |
has to be addressed if they are going to feel comfortable whth that | :16:23. | :16:25. | |
sort of settlement? I will certainly come onto this particular grievances | :16:26. | :16:30. | |
and what will bring can say is I make progress. My Honorable friend I | :16:31. | :16:37. | |
was just saying he made the remarks of the empty beaches which he saw on | :16:38. | :16:43. | |
what sounds to me like an alazing visit by Honorable members, | :16:44. | :16:46. | |
Honorable friend as well. Also the Unum is for tourism to fill those | :16:47. | :16:50. | |
beaches. That is exactly wh`t I think all sides would want. My | :16:51. | :16:57. | |
Honorable friend did not want to dwell on the past, he wanted to look | :16:58. | :17:00. | |
at the future. We certainly must learn from the past, but also | :17:01. | :17:05. | |
stressed the importance of trade. The Honorable member for whhmsy and | :17:06. | :17:11. | |
Wood Green, I was about to say a lot of nice things about her but she is | :17:12. | :17:15. | |
not in her place, although she has not been to Cyprus herself, she was | :17:16. | :17:19. | |
not on this visit, she clearly has a major diaspora in her consthtuency. | :17:20. | :17:23. | |
The fact that she came here today, she is representing her constituents | :17:24. | :17:28. | |
well. Sure mentioned the desire of an older generation of Cyprhots | :17:29. | :17:31. | |
still waiting for a solution, and how frustrating it is for them, so | :17:32. | :17:36. | |
we do hope we all make progress My right honourable friend for North, | :17:37. | :17:44. | |
then I welcome him to his ndw role? I think he has got some big shoes to | :17:45. | :17:49. | |
fill, if I can put it politdly in that way. He stressed that there is | :17:50. | :17:55. | |
a window of opportunity arising I think my Honorable friend t`lked | :17:56. | :17:59. | |
about the stars being onlind, if I may correct them, I think it is the | :18:00. | :18:02. | |
prize that are aligned rathdr than the stars. Never the less, the | :18:03. | :18:06. | |
moment very much is in front of us, that is where it is very pertinent | :18:07. | :18:10. | |
that the Foreign Secretary will be visiting in the very, very near | :18:11. | :18:18. | |
future. In terms of these b`rs aligning, I was repeating what the | :18:19. | :18:24. | |
Foreign Secretary stayed in the House, he was referring to the same | :18:25. | :18:29. | |
quotation that was referred at head of the Good Friday agreement in | :18:30. | :18:31. | |
Northern Ireland. The same phrase was used to make the point that we | :18:32. | :18:37. | |
are on the cusp of another historic agreement. I agree. I hope that is | :18:38. | :18:41. | |
absolutely right, which is why the visit of the Foreign Secret`ry is so | :18:42. | :18:44. | |
pertinent this week, I am stre he will be making sure he is ftlly | :18:45. | :18:49. | |
grasp as to what has been sdt in the House today copy my Honorable friend | :18:50. | :18:56. | |
for Cleethorpes used the phrase what purpose does this division continued | :18:57. | :19:00. | |
to serve? I absolutely agred with him, it serves no purpose | :19:01. | :19:03. | |
whatsoever, everybody benefhts by finding a solution air todax. So, | :19:04. | :19:11. | |
first of all, can I welcome the support expressed in the motion for | :19:12. | :19:17. | |
the comprehensive settlement of the Cyprus problem? Cyprus has been | :19:18. | :19:21. | |
divided for too long, and under the courageous leadership of thd | :19:22. | :19:32. | |
president Anastasio is, sorry, and Mr, we may not have the opportunity | :19:33. | :19:37. | |
to secure a just and lasting settlement. I can assure thd House | :19:38. | :19:43. | |
that the UK will remain a strong supporter of the two communhty | :19:44. | :19:47. | |
efforts to support a settlelent We will do whatever we can to help them | :19:48. | :19:53. | |
reunite Cyprus. I give weight up yellow I understand what thd | :19:54. | :20:00. | |
Minister said before about that the people in the department have got | :20:01. | :20:06. | |
more expertise. Could he sax what actual powers as the UK Govdrnment | :20:07. | :20:10. | |
got in terms of the guarantde of power for Cyprus? Again, he needs to | :20:11. | :20:16. | |
allow me to develop my argulent if I may. I will come to the point in the | :20:17. | :20:21. | |
wall that Britain seeks to provide. In this important task in fhnding a | :20:22. | :20:30. | |
solution here. We should be clear on the benefits of a lasting | :20:31. | :20:33. | |
settlement, Madam Deputy Spdaker, there are clear benefits for Cyprus, | :20:34. | :20:38. | |
for the region, and indeed for the United Kingdom. 80,000 Brithsh | :20:39. | :20:44. | |
nationals lived in Cyprus, 800, 00 visit the country every single year. | :20:45. | :20:52. | |
A reunited Cyprus would unlock significant economic benefits to | :20:53. | :20:57. | |
increase opportunities for trade, investment, and indeed tourhsm. | :20:58. | :21:02. | |
Including in the area of Russia around Famagusta, the respective | :21:03. | :21:07. | |
peace research Institute of Oslo has forecasted that the peace dhvidend | :21:08. | :21:11. | |
for a Cyprus settlement would amount to 20 billion euros over thd next 20 | :21:12. | :21:19. | |
years, it would add an aver`ge of 2.8% in real terms, GDP growth every | :21:20. | :21:26. | |
single year. These figures `lone make a powerful case for thd | :21:27. | :21:32. | |
importance of securing a settlement. Beyond economic benefits, a | :21:33. | :21:35. | |
settlement in Cyprus would help to advance regional stability, Cyprus | :21:36. | :21:41. | |
is already a beacon of stabhlity in a challenging region, but a | :21:42. | :21:44. | |
settlement would reinforce the islandsecurity. It would opdn up the | :21:45. | :21:48. | |
possibility of new energy, `nd economic partnerships in thd region. | :21:49. | :21:54. | |
It would bring new momentum to Turkey's EU accession process. And | :21:55. | :21:58. | |
all of these areas there ard opportunities for the United | :21:59. | :22:03. | |
Kingdom. On Turkey specific`lly Madam Deputy Speaker, it is clear | :22:04. | :22:08. | |
that Turkey remains an important part of reaching a solution. We | :22:09. | :22:12. | |
welcome Turkey's support for a settlement in public statemdnts on | :22:13. | :22:19. | |
that from the president and the Prime Minister, they have bden | :22:20. | :22:21. | |
important to build support for a settlement. Turkey's recent | :22:22. | :22:26. | |
agreement to give the committee for missing persons in Cyprus Access to | :22:27. | :22:30. | |
30 sites which has been mentioned by Honorable members, controlldd by the | :22:31. | :22:34. | |
Turkish military was a very helpful step indeed. We welcome the positive | :22:35. | :22:39. | |
response from the Republic of Cyprus to that end and hope that p`rties | :22:40. | :22:44. | |
can build on this to generate even more confidence in the settlement | :22:45. | :22:49. | |
process. I give way. Thank xou. I am very grateful indeed. I havd | :22:50. | :22:56. | |
listened intently to the debates, of course there are memories stirred | :22:57. | :23:00. | |
about the past in Northern Hreland, one suggestion I would make to the | :23:01. | :23:04. | |
Minister is that the IRA disappeared, murdered, a nulber of | :23:05. | :23:11. | |
people, 30, 40 years ago. Arey distinguished forensic expert has | :23:12. | :23:14. | |
helped to identify some of the remains of the disappeared, and also | :23:15. | :23:20. | |
help in Bosnia. I wonder if the government would please makd a point | :23:21. | :23:26. | |
of involving a very distingtished lady forensics expert in iddntifying | :23:27. | :23:34. | |
those graves in Cyprus? She makes an important part about the | :23:35. | :23:37. | |
reconciliation, her words are now on the record, I would have discussions | :23:38. | :23:41. | |
about this very issue. And `m pleased to say that progress has | :23:42. | :23:44. | |
been made on this as mentioned by other Honorable members in the | :23:45. | :23:50. | |
chamber. Securing a sustain`ble Cyprus settlement therefore remains | :23:51. | :23:55. | |
important, internationally, regionally given the opporttnities | :23:56. | :23:58. | |
and security threats, but above all, for the people of Cyprus itself who | :23:59. | :24:03. | |
stand most to gain from the social, economic, and security benefits that | :24:04. | :24:11. | |
a lasting settlement would bring. The UK remains firmly focusdd on | :24:12. | :24:15. | |
supporting the people of thd island to find a solution. Our approach, | :24:16. | :24:22. | |
Madam Deputy Speaker, has three elements. Adversity, we maintain | :24:23. | :24:26. | |
strong links in Cyprus with both communities, and we support strongly | :24:27. | :24:34. | |
the efforts of the president and the gentleman to reach a lasting | :24:35. | :24:37. | |
settlement to the UN led negotiations. At the Foreign | :24:38. | :24:41. | |
Secretary who has already bden visiting this week, confirmdd to the | :24:42. | :24:45. | |
House in June, the UK has m`de a generous offer to cede nearly half | :24:46. | :24:50. | |
of the territory of the sovdreign base areas to Cyprus in the event of | :24:51. | :24:55. | |
a settlement. We also Gentlemen could I also plays on | :24:56. | :25:09. | |
record the immense help the sovereign base areas have h`d over | :25:10. | :25:14. | |
the 40 years to try and keep stability. Nudges from the fact when | :25:15. | :25:18. | |
the invasion occurred to. Ttrkish troops were stopped by at the | :25:19. | :25:25. | |
presence of there. Receding back land to the Republic of Cyprus, | :25:26. | :25:32. | |
those two areas of British territory provided huge stability for the | :25:33. | :25:39. | |
island in security terms as well. The sovereign base areas have made | :25:40. | :25:44. | |
an important part of historx of that country and continue to do so. I am | :25:45. | :25:49. | |
pleased to see that we are tsing that as a method of which to | :25:50. | :25:54. | |
encourage a settlement to bd reached. We also support part | :25:55. | :25:58. | |
initiatives to help build trust between the communities, notably | :25:59. | :26:01. | |
through our support for the excellent work of the bi-colmunal | :26:02. | :26:06. | |
Chambers of commerce. The Mhnister for Europe was very pleased to host | :26:07. | :26:10. | |
an event at the Foreign Offhce in March, that enable the changes of a | :26:11. | :26:18. | |
bi-communal work and economhc benefits of a settlement. At the | :26:19. | :26:22. | |
regional level we discussed with other powers, Turkey and Grdece on | :26:23. | :26:27. | |
how best to support a soluthon to. On the question of security | :26:28. | :26:33. | |
guarantees, our position is clear, we are not seeking a specifhc role | :26:34. | :26:39. | |
for the UK. Rather, we are ready to consider whatever arrangements for | :26:40. | :26:43. | |
sides can agree to enable their communities to feel secure. Finally, | :26:44. | :26:51. | |
we engage with other intern`tional partners, including through the EU | :26:52. | :26:54. | |
and the UN, to encourage thdm to support the efforts of the president | :26:55. | :27:07. | |
and minister. As the Foreign Secretary has made clear thd UK will | :27:08. | :27:11. | |
continue to do all it can to help decide to reunite the island. With | :27:12. | :27:17. | |
respect to the specific isste of Famagusta. I understand the | :27:18. | :27:24. | |
strength... The present state of Russia reflects the consequdnces of | :27:25. | :27:28. | |
the continued division of Cxprus. We fully support all relevant hn | :27:29. | :27:36. | |
resolutions, including resolution 550 from 1980 for and 789 from 992. | :27:37. | :27:44. | |
We have raised this issue whth the Turkish Cypriots and with the | :27:45. | :27:47. | |
Turkish authorities and the government remains convinced that | :27:48. | :27:50. | |
ultimately a comprehensive settlement is the best chance at | :27:51. | :27:55. | |
resolving this issue. We relain focused on supporting the efforts of | :27:56. | :27:58. | |
the two leaders to secure a settlement. Madam Deputy Spdaker, in | :27:59. | :28:06. | |
conclusion, this debate is underlying the depth of the ties | :28:07. | :28:09. | |
between the United Kingdom `nd Cyprus. It has demonstrated that it | :28:10. | :28:16. | |
is in the UK 's national to help the Cypriots to reach a lasting | :28:17. | :28:22. | |
settlement. That will require bold decisions from both communities in | :28:23. | :28:31. | |
the weeks and months I had. But the president and the Prime Minhster | :28:32. | :28:36. | |
already demonstrate that thdy can provide the strong and determined | :28:37. | :28:40. | |
leadership required to secure an historic agreement. The govdrnment | :28:41. | :28:44. | |
is optimistic that a solution may be within reach. Certainly, many people | :28:45. | :28:48. | |
think there is not a chance, the like of which am I has not been seen | :28:49. | :28:53. | |
for decades. And we urge both sides to seize opportunities, Cypriots of | :28:54. | :29:00. | |
both communities want to live and prosper together in peace. @s they | :29:01. | :29:07. | |
strive for a lasting solution, we will continue our act of support in | :29:08. | :29:12. | |
Cyprus and grow, Athens, Brtssels, and beyond. Madam Deputy Spdaker I | :29:13. | :29:19. | |
am grateful to the committed for making time for this debate and | :29:20. | :29:22. | |
giving us opportunity to discuss these important issues. I also think | :29:23. | :29:33. | |
all of the members for contributing to this debate. And we think them | :29:34. | :29:40. | |
for their support. And the powerful case there is for a settlemdnt. It | :29:41. | :29:51. | |
is there through Nicos Anastasiades and Mustafa Akinci. We must make | :29:52. | :29:59. | |
sure that this measurement `s it is -- does this. We have heard many | :30:00. | :30:07. | |
voices throughout the debatd, intervening in sharing their support | :30:08. | :30:10. | |
and offer this measure. Togdther with fine on for -- five honourable | :30:11. | :30:22. | |
members. That is because... She is welcome to apply,. We spoke about | :30:23. | :30:37. | |
the generational problem and the hope, he has the skills to work with | :30:38. | :30:44. | |
us to make the most of this chant. My honourable friend spoke `bout it | :30:45. | :30:52. | |
being applied everywhere, and Cyprus as well. To ensure that we never | :30:53. | :30:57. | |
forget the important issue of justice that must be dealt with Is | :30:58. | :31:05. | |
motion proceeds to do that. He also spoke of the airport, which is a | :31:06. | :31:16. | |
scar of the division. My honourable friend for South and West is that he | :31:17. | :31:20. | |
heard it all before, but thhs motion does allow us to take it further. | :31:21. | :31:29. | |
That is the case because since the 40,000 who had to leave thehr homes | :31:30. | :31:35. | |
that have not been left empty to decay, we must bring you back to its | :31:36. | :31:43. | |
former glory and see its return There has been petitions, not just | :31:44. | :32:05. | |
the one that forms the basis of this debate. Now, we have a resolution in | :32:06. | :32:14. | |
this house that does make it very clear that I hope we will rdceive a | :32:15. | :32:18. | |
unanimous support from the House, we want this motion which is about the | :32:19. | :32:25. | |
return of Famagusta, it is `bout supporting a comprehensive | :32:26. | :32:27. | |
settlement. We want to make sure this is the last time we have to | :32:28. | :32:30. | |
have this debate, that we do reach the settlement that is for the good | :32:31. | :32:39. | |
of all Cypriots. As many of that opinion say I, on the contr`ry no. I | :32:40. | :32:46. | |
think the ayes Pavitt. We now come to the applause of private | :32:47. | :32:58. | |
business. The chairman comes forward. The question is asked on | :32:59. | :33:03. | |
the order paper. Thank you Ladam Deputy Speaker, I rise to propose | :33:04. | :33:09. | |
that the bill submitted by transport for London be revived in thhs | :33:10. | :33:14. | |
session of Parliament. This is a private bill, promoted by transport | :33:15. | :33:18. | |
for London, which was actually deposited on the 26th of November | :33:19. | :33:27. | |
2010. It was order to commence in the House of Lords. The bill... If I | :33:28. | :33:35. | |
may make some progress what has happened before I give way hn terms | :33:36. | :33:41. | |
of time. The bill was considered by an opposing committee of thhs house | :33:42. | :33:49. | |
on January 20 15, one of thd clauses was amended. The door subsepuently | :33:50. | :33:54. | |
debated at the consideration stage on Monday the 16th of March, the | :33:55. | :33:58. | |
time allocated for the debate expired before proceedings could be | :33:59. | :34:06. | |
brought to a conclusion. Thd bill fell. In accordance with thd | :34:07. | :34:12. | |
beginning of the present session the promoters requested that thd bill be | :34:13. | :34:15. | |
revised in accordance with private business standing order 188 B. The | :34:16. | :34:23. | |
revival motion subsequently tabled has continued to be objected to | :34:24. | :34:28. | |
leading to the necessity for this debate. I would stress that this | :34:29. | :34:33. | |
debate is about the revival of the application and the private bill | :34:34. | :34:38. | |
rather than the substance of the bill itself. I give way. He has | :34:39. | :34:44. | |
pointed out that there is a need for the revival motion because the bill | :34:45. | :34:50. | |
has not succeeded earlier this year. I wonder if his eyebrows rahsed | :34:51. | :34:55. | |
slightly at the fact that it has taken five years. I wonder hf he's | :34:56. | :35:00. | |
going to indicate why that lay be the case. I think the honourable | :35:01. | :35:06. | |
member for his comment. The process has taken some time, they wdre | :35:07. | :35:14. | |
very... Various different applications for considerathon for | :35:15. | :35:16. | |
amendments which is why the promoters of the bill have `mended | :35:17. | :35:25. | |
the bill to allow people objected to it to see changes to the bill which | :35:26. | :35:30. | |
would benefit the whole process The purpose of this bill, is to provide | :35:31. | :35:36. | |
transport for London with the additional power so that thdy can | :35:37. | :35:39. | |
meet its business, more flexibly and take advantage of more efficient | :35:40. | :35:45. | |
arrangements for the stewardship of its financial affairs. It whll allow | :35:46. | :35:49. | |
them to maximise the value of its assets and delivered signifhcantly | :35:50. | :35:56. | |
better to the pain public which should be something we all `gree | :35:57. | :36:01. | |
with. It is responsible for one of the worlds busiest transport | :36:02. | :36:12. | |
networks... I give way. I rdcognise that he has lived with this bill for | :36:13. | :36:17. | |
a very long time. I am coming to it fresh and I wondered if he could | :36:18. | :36:19. | |
tell me whether there is anxthing in this bill which might give hope to | :36:20. | :36:24. | |
my constituents and indeed to one or two of his. Who are waiting and | :36:25. | :36:35. | |
continue to wait in vain for access and improvements. Will this bill | :36:36. | :36:43. | |
help to sort that out? I am weary of straining too far from the principal | :36:44. | :36:46. | |
of the revival of the bill, because I know that there are transport | :36:47. | :36:51. | |
needs across London am a thdre are transport improvements that we would | :36:52. | :36:56. | |
all like to see. The key pohnt here is that by ensuring they have the | :36:57. | :36:59. | |
ability to maintain its fin`nces efficiently and effectively it means | :37:00. | :37:03. | |
that the improvements that ly honourable colleague and nehghbour | :37:04. | :37:09. | |
would like to see can be brought to fruition and some of my own | :37:10. | :37:12. | |
constituency would like to see things brought to fruition `s well. | :37:13. | :37:16. | |
As I will come onto the aspdct of the bill which not to find the | :37:17. | :37:21. | |
answers need to be improved, it means that we need more mondy for | :37:22. | :37:25. | |
the transport improvements to the infrastructure that we all wish to | :37:26. | :37:31. | |
see. I will give way second time to my honourable fellow. I am very | :37:32. | :37:35. | |
grateful for to giving way. He will forgive me for being a little bit | :37:36. | :37:39. | |
uncharitable and suggesting that his answer was a tad vague on the | :37:40. | :37:45. | |
question. I know the station is a significant issue for him, H will | :37:46. | :37:49. | |
happily... AP will use the hnfluence he undoubtably has with the TFL as a | :37:50. | :37:55. | |
result of being asked to be the promoter of this bill that they | :37:56. | :38:01. | |
bring forward improved access regiments as a matter of sole | :38:02. | :38:09. | |
urgency. I think it for pressing the point, which I know is a vital | :38:10. | :38:17. | |
aspect to the improvement that needs to take place in London. Can | :38:18. | :38:25. | |
actually conclude with answdring the point that was made by my honourable | :38:26. | :38:31. | |
colleague? I will use the opportunity with TFL and others to | :38:32. | :38:33. | |
ensure that we get the improvements that we want to see at both | :38:34. | :38:40. | |
stations. I give way to the honourable Lady. Stencil within he's | :38:41. | :38:47. | |
a man of great influence for transport for London, will xou take | :38:48. | :38:53. | |
up the cause of another station Obbi close in six months in order to | :38:54. | :38:57. | |
renew a list. I do not understand why, why do we need to have the | :38:58. | :39:03. | |
whole train station closed there are lives. It seems to be | :39:04. | :39:04. | |
incomprehensible. -- let's. I do know that station as one of the | :39:05. | :39:28. | |
one... Interesting enough, there is substantial amount of money and to | :39:29. | :39:33. | |
actually ensure that the tr`nsport system around the Emirates was | :39:34. | :39:37. | |
improved traumatically on the rebuilding of the Stadium. There are | :39:38. | :39:44. | |
concerns about how that mondy was used and whether it was used in the | :39:45. | :39:48. | |
proper way. However, what I will say to the honourable ladies th`t | :39:49. | :39:55. | |
clearly I realise there is ` need to renew it there I would rathdr we | :39:56. | :39:58. | |
have a list at Harrow Hill says there is no lift there. As well as | :39:59. | :40:05. | |
improving... Let me give wax to another honourable Lady frol London | :40:06. | :40:10. | |
who also would have an aspect of London transport to bring up. I m | :40:11. | :40:14. | |
grateful to the honourable gentleman for giving way. I am from Ndw York | :40:15. | :40:24. | |
Central constituency. I do want to ask a question on your openhng | :40:25. | :40:32. | |
remarks. Said the financial position of transport for London will be | :40:33. | :40:35. | |
improved as a consequence for this bill stop the I will like to know | :40:36. | :40:38. | |
the premise and we should m`ke that assumption? If the honourable Lady | :40:39. | :40:43. | |
would let me advance further in my speech I will prefer to that | :40:44. | :40:47. | |
specific issue in a few momdnts For colleagues across the House and | :40:48. | :40:55. | |
beyond, the reality is, if H can make a bit of progress. TFL is | :40:56. | :40:59. | |
responsible for one of the worlds biggest transport networks, there | :41:00. | :41:08. | |
are 1.3 billion passengers hn the last year. It is responsibld for a | :41:09. | :41:11. | |
multi-billion investment programme to improve the capacity and the | :41:12. | :41:16. | |
connectivity of the transport network. London underground, | :41:17. | :41:20. | |
response will for the tube service has it achieved improved service | :41:21. | :41:26. | |
with a 40% improvement in rdcent times. Sent TFL over in Novdmber | :41:27. | :41:36. | |
2007, the demand for the services has risen. It has been cut by two | :41:37. | :41:41. | |
thirds and customer satisfaction has improved up to 82%. TFL is providing | :41:42. | :41:47. | |
25% more capacity to overground services to help meet the growing | :41:48. | :41:52. | |
demand that there is the network was expanded in May ten include West | :41:53. | :41:59. | |
Anglia in a suburban route. TFL is the joint sponsor for Crossrail | :42:00. | :42:05. | |
which is the largest transport project undertaken in the c`pital | :42:06. | :42:09. | |
for many years. The deliverx company is wholly owned subsidiary... I give | :42:10. | :42:19. | |
way to the honourable Lady. I may prioritise Harrow on the Hill that | :42:20. | :42:25. | |
needs improvement. But therd are a whole wave of people, Londoners who | :42:26. | :42:30. | |
have hoped they would be able to get onto the tube network and that is | :42:31. | :42:35. | |
people with disabilities who need level access. My own constituency, | :42:36. | :42:41. | |
two stations were promised level access, disabled access and now this | :42:42. | :42:46. | |
projects have stopped. Is it because of the lay in this bill or some | :42:47. | :42:52. | |
other problems that TFL has? -- delay. TFL has been the invdsting in | :42:53. | :43:00. | |
access for disabled people by dramatically over the past ten | :43:01. | :43:06. | |
years. I do remember that the points the honourable Lady mentiondd were | :43:07. | :43:10. | |
raised under the previous M`yor of London and were not deliverdd. I am | :43:11. | :43:19. | |
going to go on out to the kdy points of the bill. The bill has only | :43:20. | :43:29. | |
gotten four clauses. It will enable TFL to deliver better value for | :43:30. | :43:33. | |
money for the taxpayer and the taxpaying public. Says the bill was | :43:34. | :43:39. | |
deposited, TFL's operation funding from central government has been cut | :43:40. | :43:45. | |
by 25% and the government's aim is to reduce the funding overthme to | :43:46. | :43:51. | |
0%. It has deliver ?16 billhon of savings over the period two 202 , it | :43:52. | :43:59. | |
it will exist in this particular regard. In summary, Clause four will | :44:00. | :44:06. | |
give it the ability to access cheaper finance, subject to the | :44:07. | :44:10. | |
consent of the mayor and in respect to the core operational assdts to | :44:11. | :44:15. | |
the consent of the Secretarx of State. Clearly there'll an | :44:16. | :44:19. | |
opportunity for members, melbers of Parliament, to have oversight of | :44:20. | :44:22. | |
such proposals. Clause five will allow TFL to form limited | :44:23. | :44:28. | |
partnerships... Let me conclude first. Clause five will allow TFL to | :44:29. | :44:34. | |
form limited partnerships and follow scrutiny of the bill by the postal | :44:35. | :44:39. | |
committee, the Clause was alended to provide that the Secretary of State | :44:40. | :44:44. | |
must consent to the formation of the limited partnership by way of | :44:45. | :44:49. | |
order. Which is debated in both houses of parliament. On thd | :44:50. | :44:53. | |
principle of transparency of these limited partnerships, which I know | :44:54. | :44:58. | |
is one of the concerns, particularly raised by objectors, there'll be | :44:59. | :45:07. | |
public debate over such arrangements. I give way to my | :45:08. | :45:10. | |
honourable colleague once again I am grateful to him for giving way. | :45:11. | :45:17. | |
He talks about oversight by members of this house. Is there not a | :45:18. | :45:21. | |
concern that he will acknowledge that actually, there ought to be | :45:22. | :45:25. | |
governments on a non-regular basis, oversight on a more regular basis in | :45:26. | :45:32. | |
London. And that the governlents of TFL as a whole needs reform to | :45:33. | :45:37. | |
oversee the arrangements in this bill, but also to give people in | :45:38. | :45:43. | |
London more of a stake in the big decisions about TFL's futurd. Sales, | :45:44. | :45:50. | |
there rises in other big decisions TFL has to make. I think my article | :45:51. | :45:57. | |
called for that intervention. - I thank my honourable friend. He was a | :45:58. | :46:04. | |
member of the government th`t was set up the arrangements for London | :46:05. | :46:07. | |
in the year 2000, no doubt on record there is a view that he said what | :46:08. | :46:15. | |
should've been then. The kex point here is, as far as the oversight and | :46:16. | :46:23. | |
transparency, there will be an opportunity for particularlx when | :46:24. | :46:25. | |
the limited partnership arr`ngement operation is looked at, for that to | :46:26. | :46:30. | |
be scrutinised by both housds of Parliament. I will give way once | :46:31. | :46:38. | |
more and then I will make progress. It may be that the Labour | :46:39. | :46:43. | |
partnership might be oversed when it was first discovered, will there be | :46:44. | :46:46. | |
anything to stop those in control of the other partnerships changing at a | :46:47. | :46:50. | |
later date and not having control over that will he be able to help | :46:51. | :46:58. | |
us? Clearly both the initial set up will be scrutinised by both houses. | :46:59. | :47:03. | |
If there was to be any substantial change to the way that will be | :47:04. | :47:07. | |
structured, clearly there whll be an opportunity for oversight and her | :47:08. | :47:17. | |
point of view through London assembly and the Mayor of London I | :47:18. | :47:22. | |
am sure that nothing will bd done to prevent proper oversight. Is a | :47:23. | :47:29. | |
something specifically in the bill that would stop the control over | :47:30. | :47:34. | |
partnership moving from one organisation or individual to | :47:35. | :47:38. | |
another? And at that point with there be some form of overshght that | :47:39. | :47:44. | |
would stop the transfer of control? I thank the honourable Lady. This is | :47:45. | :47:51. | |
something on the revival of the bill, she wouldn't have been to | :47:52. | :47:57. | |
express further we come to the debate for changes to the bhll. This | :47:58. | :48:02. | |
is not a point of the reviv`l of the bill,... Can I go on to the other | :48:03. | :48:09. | |
clauses before I conclude? Clause six explains the entities through | :48:10. | :48:16. | |
which TFL can undertake comlercial activities to include limitdd | :48:17. | :48:20. | |
partnerships, limited liability partnerships and companies limited | :48:21. | :48:22. | |
by guarantee. All this enables TFL to conduct, there's more fldxibly | :48:23. | :48:29. | |
and meet the maximum value from the assets. Clause seven gives TFL | :48:30. | :48:32. | |
greater flexibility to mitigate its risk through hedging and allowing it | :48:33. | :48:41. | |
to... When it is exposed to fluctuations at the consequdnce of a | :48:42. | :48:45. | |
transfer contract and TFL's contribution risk to the pension | :48:46. | :48:50. | |
funds. Contrary to the assertions made in the second reading `nd | :48:51. | :48:55. | |
elsewhere, the bill does not get TFL any new powers to sell or ddvelop | :48:56. | :49:00. | |
its land. TFL has had such powers since it was created in the year | :49:01. | :49:05. | |
2000 and it is not seeking to extend them in any way shape or form. TFL | :49:06. | :49:09. | |
must obtain the consent of the mayor to dispose of surplus by sale or | :49:10. | :49:17. | |
granting long-term lease. It has operational man in the past for five | :49:18. | :49:21. | |
years, the Secretary of State must also give his or her consent. TFL is | :49:22. | :49:27. | |
also subject to scrutiny by the assembly, has various oblig`tions to | :49:28. | :49:33. | |
publish financial details and details of the surplus and building | :49:34. | :49:38. | |
assets. The powers TFL is sdeking in the bill will not detract from | :49:39. | :49:42. | |
TFL's discharge of his core functions and the discrete leasures | :49:43. | :49:47. | |
of the bill should be taken as indicative... I will not give | :49:48. | :49:54. | |
way... Of a desire to meet hts business these more effectively | :49:55. | :49:57. | |
flexibly and cost-effectively. One of the key issues that has been | :49:58. | :50:02. | |
identified throughout the whole process and what we all in this | :50:03. | :50:05. | |
house share is the opportunhty for TFL to maximise the developlent of | :50:06. | :50:10. | |
assets for housing purposes. If this bill is finally brought to law, TFL | :50:11. | :50:17. | |
will be releasing more than 300 acres of land in London to help | :50:18. | :50:22. | |
create more than 10,000 new homes across London. 67% of this phase of | :50:23. | :50:31. | |
development is in trial zonds one and two. TFL is working with the | :50:32. | :50:36. | |
major, I am not giving way `nymore, London buyers and the commercial | :50:37. | :50:40. | |
property development sector to bring forward developments in a ndw and | :50:41. | :50:44. | |
creative way. The additional powers in this bill will enable thdse | :50:45. | :50:48. | |
developments to take... Ple`se were officially enabling more of the | :50:49. | :50:52. | |
revenue raised from the devdlopments to be reinvested into the transport | :50:53. | :50:56. | |
network and bear down on fares. Those people who oppose this bill | :50:57. | :51:03. | |
and the revival of this bill will be -- will fell to... I am not giving | :51:04. | :51:16. | |
away any further. The benefhts this bill were bring, it is essential | :51:17. | :51:22. | |
that the bill becomes law as soon as possible. I will be eager to listen | :51:23. | :51:27. | |
to contributions of the members opposite in particular. Givdn that | :51:28. | :51:35. | |
the whole aspect of the campaign which is surely to be run whll be | :51:36. | :51:41. | |
vital that we give the Mayor of London the opportunity to create | :51:42. | :51:43. | |
much-needed housing and 10,000 housing units one 300 acres of | :51:44. | :51:50. | |
language is redundant, suggdst to me that this is a great opporttnity | :51:51. | :51:54. | |
which is being denied and prevented the shenanigans of the membdrs | :51:55. | :52:00. | |
opposite. I therefore moved, Madam Deputy Speaker, that the bill should | :52:01. | :52:04. | |
be revised so can complete hts passage through the House. H trust | :52:05. | :52:07. | |
that you'll ensure during the of this debate that the members will | :52:08. | :52:11. | |
constrain themselves to the subject of the revival of this bill. I am | :52:12. | :52:22. | |
concerned about Clause five in particular of this bill. I `m | :52:23. | :52:29. | |
concerned about the idea of limited partnerships. Limited partndrships | :52:30. | :52:33. | |
as far as I understand or lhmited liability partnerships, werd | :52:34. | :52:38. | |
established in 1907 and there were to enable peoples to become partners | :52:39. | :52:42. | |
without taking on liability. That needs to be a general partndr who | :52:43. | :52:45. | |
will be liable for everything. But then those who are coming into | :52:46. | :52:48. | |
partnership with and maybe giving money towards will not have any form | :52:49. | :52:53. | |
of liability at all. He unddrstand it is a means of raising capital, | :52:54. | :52:59. | |
but it does seem to be very worrying that who it is these partners may | :53:00. | :53:04. | |
be. We have heard all kinds of scare stories and relations to thhs and I | :53:05. | :53:07. | |
will be very interested to hear some reassurance about this. I whll give | :53:08. | :53:14. | |
way. When she describes this bill done at limited liability, hs in her | :53:15. | :53:19. | |
conclusion that the limits of that liability in the limited partnership | :53:20. | :53:26. | |
arrangements could actually be nil? Is that her understanding? H believe | :53:27. | :53:32. | |
that is exactly what the position is. Is a legal intranet that was | :53:33. | :53:38. | |
created in order to be able to help raise money. The difficulty is, we | :53:39. | :53:47. | |
are raising money on public land, land that is owned by you and me, it | :53:48. | :53:51. | |
is owned by all of us and wd are to be handing over some sort of | :53:52. | :53:55. | |
liability or some sort of investment in this land, by organisations. Is | :53:56. | :54:03. | |
there anything to stop, for example, these partners being offshore | :54:04. | :54:08. | |
companies, is there anything to stop them from establishing themselves | :54:09. | :54:13. | |
with ?2 worth of capital. Is there anything to stop them and they are | :54:14. | :54:18. | |
established with some peopld on the face of the documents being | :54:19. | :54:20. | |
responsible for the company and then a later stage the Russian M`fia | :54:21. | :54:26. | |
taking over instead. Are we handing over Caledonian Road, some of the | :54:27. | :54:33. | |
developments within my constituency, potential devdlopments | :54:34. | :54:37. | |
in my constituency to such people? I certainly hope not. Does worry me | :54:38. | :54:40. | |
though we are reviving a bill that may impact be null and void. I fully | :54:41. | :54:56. | |
understand that. I went to bed with the... | :54:57. | :55:04. | |
I noticed that these answers are deep in thought and I'm not taking | :55:05. | :55:13. | |
their interventions on some of the matters of this bill. If thhs bill | :55:14. | :55:16. | |
is to be were bogged she must be relieved that we have | :55:17. | :55:23. | |
I genuinely think we should. As we are talking about large swathes of | :55:24. | :55:30. | |
publicly owned land in the centre of a capital. I have to tell hhm that | :55:31. | :55:34. | |
when it comes to Brownfield sites in my constituency I have the least | :55:35. | :55:38. | |
amount of green space of anx MP in this entire country and all our | :55:39. | :55:41. | |
Brownfield sites need to be looked at very carefully in order to be | :55:42. | :55:45. | |
able to maximise housing. The honourable gentleman talked about | :55:46. | :55:48. | |
housing. I agree, but frankly we do not need the likes of the | :55:49. | :55:53. | |
development that is happening at the moment on our can out wear ` | :55:54. | :55:57. | |
one-bedroom flat is being sold for ?826,000. That is not affordable | :55:58. | :56:02. | |
housing for any people who lived in Islington at the moment. We need to | :56:03. | :56:06. | |
be looking at real affordable housing for those sites. Thhs bill | :56:07. | :56:09. | |
does not seem to me to show any control over that. This is ` really | :56:10. | :56:16. | |
important point because too often people talk about housing ntmbers | :56:17. | :56:20. | |
and they bandy around this ward affordable which is by no mdans | :56:21. | :56:24. | |
affordable by any standards for most people in London. Talking about 300 | :56:25. | :56:28. | |
acres of land to be made av`ilable for housing when people frol London | :56:29. | :56:34. | |
and those on low incomes will not be able to access that housing will | :56:35. | :56:37. | |
conjure beat nothing to the housing needs that we have in London -- | :56:38. | :56:42. | |
contribute nothing. A have to say when it comes to Islington | :56:43. | :56:47. | |
residents, they can be of hhgh incomes, seen as high incomds and | :56:48. | :56:51. | |
they are very concerned abott their children just as those in mhddle | :56:52. | :56:55. | |
income and low incomes. How their children born in Islington remain in | :56:56. | :56:59. | |
Islington given the prices of housing into the Mayor of London, | :57:00. | :57:04. | |
reference has been made to the Mayor is answer to that has been to | :57:05. | :57:08. | |
redefine affordable housing. It is a little bit like any rid of child | :57:09. | :57:11. | |
poverty by taking income out of the definition of child poverty. I am | :57:12. | :57:17. | |
grateful for my honourable friend giving way on that point. In | :57:18. | :57:22. | |
Westminster, you now need an income of ?77,000 in order to be able to | :57:23. | :57:26. | |
afford what the Mayor of London has deemed as unaffordable propdrty My | :57:27. | :57:31. | |
constituents like her look `t the proliferation of new developments on | :57:32. | :57:34. | |
some of these sites she is describing and see these properties | :57:35. | :57:37. | |
going up which they will never have the remotest chance of being able to | :57:38. | :57:40. | |
afford. They do not just want to the building, they want to the building | :57:41. | :57:43. | |
of affordable homes they have a chance of being able to accdss. The | :57:44. | :57:48. | |
point is this. Once the land is gone is gone forever. Once the ltxury | :57:49. | :57:52. | |
flats are built there is no chance of Islington residents ever being | :57:53. | :58:00. | |
able to afford to buy them. Once a luxury flat is gone and we do not | :58:01. | :58:03. | |
have social housing were re`l affordable housing built in in | :58:04. | :58:05. | |
London that is it. We need to defend very carefully this land th`t is | :58:06. | :58:10. | |
available. 80% of market rent, which is what the Mayor of London now | :58:11. | :58:12. | |
decides is affordable housing if they last. -- a last. One c`nnot | :58:13. | :58:21. | |
laugh because it is tragic. Is a little bit like 1984. This | :58:22. | :58:26. | |
misspeaking as things like hs white and say it long enough and hopefully | :58:27. | :58:29. | |
some people will start to bdlieve it. But 80% of market rent hn the | :58:30. | :58:33. | |
context of this is not affordable housing. I read with alarm what was | :58:34. | :58:38. | |
said in the financial Times about housing. When the transport for | :58:39. | :58:41. | |
London were talking about housing they were talking about affordable | :58:42. | :58:45. | |
housing in the honourable gentleman's and stability in outer | :58:46. | :58:49. | |
London but not in inner London. I have 21,000 people on the w`iting | :58:50. | :58:52. | |
list for housing in Islington. Does this bill have any answer to any | :58:53. | :58:59. | |
other problems width I give way We are being distracted from one of the | :59:00. | :59:03. | |
main points of this will is there payers and taxpayers presently | :59:04. | :59:07. | |
bearing the cost and risk of the lack of capacity to finance as it | :59:08. | :59:14. | |
says in Clause four to finance projects of the best available | :59:15. | :59:19. | |
interest rates. Without givhng this a safe passage we are bearing the | :59:20. | :59:23. | |
risk on our constituency of there payers and taxpayers. Is acceptable? | :59:24. | :59:28. | |
The honourable gentleman rahses an important point. It brings ts back | :59:29. | :59:31. | |
to another rumour which is the other rumour that ?700 million in the CSR | :59:32. | :59:37. | |
is going to be taken away from transport for London and thdrefore | :59:38. | :59:41. | |
transport for London is even more in desperate need of a fire sale of our | :59:42. | :59:45. | |
property of our land in orddr to be able to subsidize payers. London is | :59:46. | :59:51. | |
the greatest capital in the world. We need to have proper transport | :59:52. | :59:58. | |
system which is appropriate, which helps us in the city to continue to | :59:59. | :00:01. | |
be the lifeblood of this cotntry. It does seem to me to be short,sighted | :00:02. | :00:07. | |
in the greatest extent to t`ke away subsidy from transport for London | :00:08. | :00:10. | |
because our state will grind to a halt. Once we have sold off that and | :00:11. | :00:15. | |
one of the opportunity for ly constituents to live in affordable | :00:16. | :00:17. | |
housing have gone for the s`ke of them being able to have che`per | :00:18. | :00:21. | |
fares for a year or two, wh`t do we do then when we have sold off this | :00:22. | :00:27. | |
in the way it is being suggdsted? To she agree with me that risk comes in | :00:28. | :00:31. | |
many different forms and thd evening standard revealed a few weeks ago | :00:32. | :00:34. | |
that the London property market since 2008 has been ?100 billion | :00:35. | :00:40. | |
worth of investment from ovdrseas property of. Some of which hs from | :00:41. | :00:47. | |
there he dodgy sources and some is a money laundering process and that | :00:48. | :00:50. | |
kind of investment in property where that property is not transport | :00:51. | :00:53. | |
transparent and not properlx managed a risk to the London property and | :00:54. | :01:01. | |
other sources which depend on that? All of us will probably havd been | :01:02. | :01:04. | |
down the river and seen all the development delete back devdlopment | :01:05. | :01:08. | |
that are happening and look to see how many have lights at night. If | :01:09. | :01:12. | |
they do not have a light on people are not living there and it is | :01:13. | :01:15. | |
simply someone in Singapore who can buy a bag of gold and invest in a | :01:16. | :01:19. | |
bag of gold or think let's buy a flat in South London on the river, | :01:20. | :01:25. | |
lovely view. Someone looking at it and we can invest that and keep it | :01:26. | :01:31. | |
for years, for decades and those empty flats are laughing at my | :01:32. | :01:34. | |
constituents. They're laughhng at my constituents who are in desperate | :01:35. | :01:38. | |
need of proper housing and ht does seem to me that this is an | :01:39. | :01:40. | |
opportunity that is being... Frittered away. Wasn't not | :01:41. | :01:50. | |
surprising am I apologise for how I am appearing, charitable to him as a | :01:51. | :01:54. | |
Tottenham than one should always be charitable to the honourabld | :01:55. | :02:02. | |
member. Stuff she not accept the concern -- does she not accdpt the | :02:03. | :02:07. | |
concern that the old Oak colmon experience and the lack of | :02:08. | :02:09. | |
affordable housing on that side for negotiation that CFL into that site | :02:10. | :02:16. | |
has scarred those of us who come to look at this particular mothon and | :02:17. | :02:23. | |
that perhaps the honourable member might persuade CFL to look `fresh at | :02:24. | :02:29. | |
the bill in light of those concerns and come back with some mord | :02:30. | :02:33. | |
amendments perhaps around the future governance and oversight of any deal | :02:34. | :02:38. | |
that are done? The honourable gentleman makes a really important | :02:39. | :02:42. | |
point. Essentially, what thd sponsors of this bill are s`ying to | :02:43. | :02:46. | |
us and what CFL is saying is trust us. Trust us, let us enter hnto | :02:47. | :02:52. | |
limited partnerships with who knows to. S enter into limited partnership | :02:53. | :02:59. | |
which is not a distinct leg`l entity which has a clear consequence or | :03:00. | :03:02. | |
public transparency. We cannot for example youth they freedom of | :03:03. | :03:06. | |
information act to find out who was behind the partnerships that CFL may | :03:07. | :03:13. | |
be getting into. -- TFL. But as that week they do not worry about it we | :03:14. | :03:17. | |
can be trusted. The difficulty is TFL's behaviour over the past two | :03:18. | :03:20. | |
years with some of the developments we know about shows that in fact we | :03:21. | :03:27. | |
cannot trust them. Caledoni`n Road is not a frivolous example, it is | :03:28. | :03:32. | |
the horrible gentleman -- at least that is one of the few to b`sins | :03:33. | :03:35. | |
available for the large number of people who go to watch the highly | :03:36. | :03:40. | |
successful Arsenal football club play copy one of the few th`t have | :03:41. | :03:45. | |
disabled access. Is one of the few with disabled access that is going | :03:46. | :03:48. | |
to be closed for six months. What about Arsenal fans in wheelchairs | :03:49. | :03:52. | |
over that time? Is TFL cannot look after a tube station that h`s four | :03:53. | :03:57. | |
live staff they tell me that they need to close it for six months | :03:58. | :04:00. | |
because they have to renew one of the lift shaft and yet they have two | :04:01. | :04:04. | |
functional lives at the momdnt and are going to stop both of them. I | :04:05. | :04:10. | |
say lift capacity is only 50% subject one while repairing the | :04:11. | :04:12. | |
other. They say what happens if the lift breaks down? You have lift | :04:13. | :04:19. | |
engineers on-site, TFL, you are redoing the others do what hs the | :04:20. | :04:23. | |
problem? It seems to me that if TFL has difficulty running a tube | :04:24. | :04:27. | |
station then I have some concerns about their ability as a property | :04:28. | :04:30. | |
developer particularly if they go into partnership. They may be | :04:31. | :04:36. | |
perfectly adequate, perfectly.. They may go into partnership with | :04:37. | :04:40. | |
the latter-day people, that would be fantastic. Great if they went into | :04:41. | :04:44. | |
partnership with someone who really wanted to provide housing that is | :04:45. | :04:47. | |
entirely appropriate for my constituents. The difficultx is I do | :04:48. | :04:51. | |
not believe that anti-do not think the honourable gentleman th`t | :04:52. | :04:55. | |
either. What CFL are trying to do is make as much money as they can out | :04:56. | :04:59. | |
of Atlanta and they will not make as much money out of affordabld housing | :05:00. | :05:04. | |
as they out of luxury flats up yellow delete back. Realising the | :05:05. | :05:12. | |
maximum Valley of value of the assets is based on it structure as | :05:13. | :05:16. | |
it suits the best investment opportunity. It is not a prd-body | :05:17. | :05:20. | |
trust, it is someone who wants to know the accident League absolute | :05:21. | :05:25. | |
max that is why the foot st`bility is there. It is and ask no puestions | :05:26. | :05:28. | |
policy we do not care who you are not quite right concern is that the | :05:29. | :05:32. | |
partner that is going to be taking unlimited risk will be asked. Here's | :05:33. | :05:37. | |
my constituents not getting what they need, their public assdts being | :05:38. | :05:41. | |
fire sales and yet they're taking the risk. If something goes wrong, | :05:42. | :05:46. | |
it is best those fine, it is the property market collapses... Is | :05:47. | :05:52. | |
there not a further risk th`t the partner that TFL goes into business | :05:53. | :05:55. | |
with on a particular site lhke Caledonian Road, suppose a goes | :05:56. | :06:02. | |
bust. Surely then TFL will be left with a very large potentially cost | :06:03. | :06:07. | |
and will be a further risk to taxpayers and make getting the list | :06:08. | :06:13. | |
at Harrow on the hell would I be far more important than those at | :06:14. | :06:16. | |
Caledonian Road and make it even more distant prospect. It does seem | :06:17. | :06:23. | |
to me that it is as though the risk is being nationalised and the profit | :06:24. | :06:26. | |
is being privatised. That is what is happening here for the sake of | :06:27. | :06:31. | |
George Osborne being able to balance the books when it comes to the SR. I | :06:32. | :06:37. | |
am grateful to you giving w`y on this occasion because when we were | :06:38. | :06:40. | |
talking about risk is there not a further risk that actually tax from | :06:41. | :06:44. | |
some of these property developers may be offshore and they max not pay | :06:45. | :06:48. | |
them fact the Treasury will be needing even must money on that land | :06:49. | :06:53. | |
up what I think there are m`ny questions to be asked about what the | :06:54. | :06:58. | |
status of the partners who TFL will be able to go into partnership with | :06:59. | :07:02. | |
is. Will they be offshore? Will they be paying taxes? Will they be able | :07:03. | :07:07. | |
to move the management or control of these partnerships from one hearty | :07:08. | :07:13. | |
to another without there behng any ability on behalf of of us `s the | :07:14. | :07:18. | |
public, it is our land to bd able to stop that? One years many scary | :07:19. | :07:22. | |
stories. Money from all the love being laundered through Scotland. | :07:23. | :07:26. | |
All sorts of extraordinary things that go on with these instrtments. | :07:27. | :07:36. | |
My concern is that the limited our dinners are only liable for the | :07:37. | :07:40. | |
value of any investment that they make and the limited partner does | :07:41. | :07:43. | |
not need to be involved in the management of the partnershhp. They | :07:44. | :07:47. | |
put their money and. That is the extent of their liability. Their | :07:48. | :07:50. | |
liability is no more than that. We do not know what profits thdy will | :07:51. | :07:53. | |
be able to make or whether or not they will be paying any tax in this | :07:54. | :07:56. | |
country. I think these questions need to be asked you for review by | :07:57. | :08:01. | |
this bill. I will give way. What about this question? Apart from my | :08:02. | :08:08. | |
dear paint taxpaying constituents as well as heard they're being asked | :08:09. | :08:10. | |
about project and future projects whether they are offering the best | :08:11. | :08:16. | |
interest rate for the lowest risk? They'll be wanting that to be | :08:17. | :08:21. | |
achieved. That is not enabld that to happen, not the least cause for I | :08:22. | :08:24. | |
do not know if it does quitd frankly. It seems to me that it is | :08:25. | :08:30. | |
vague in the extreme and it seems to me that in my view it is entirely | :08:31. | :08:35. | |
inappropriate for private ddlete back public assets for a public | :08:36. | :08:38. | |
company to go into partnership with who knows who for us to be `ble to | :08:39. | :08:44. | |
take the risk of putting it out there seeing it come forward, seeing | :08:45. | :08:48. | |
them put up the money if thdy put up the money. This is my be slhppery | :08:49. | :08:52. | |
gel operation we ought to bd dealing with. This is in the centre of | :08:53. | :08:55. | |
London in my constituency which I do not wish to book these control to | :08:56. | :09:02. | |
who knows -- I wish to not give control up yellow I realised she had | :09:03. | :09:07. | |
concerns and I will try to be helpful if I may. In terms of | :09:08. | :09:11. | |
answering the questions askdd he has asked she might wish to talk to | :09:12. | :09:16. | |
labour Sheffield were Labour Gateshead who have all entered into | :09:17. | :09:19. | |
similar joint limited partndrships to see how they have worked. I do | :09:20. | :09:28. | |
not know about... I do not know what the conditions are in relathon to | :09:29. | :09:33. | |
the limited partnership. If the honourable gentleman wishes to | :09:34. | :09:35. | |
enlighten me I will give wax again. I think it is a question of what | :09:36. | :09:43. | |
controls are available up ydllow. Sheffield our local housing company | :09:44. | :09:49. | |
where the Council invested the property but the joint venttre | :09:50. | :09:52. | |
partner invested the financd. There were shared risk. Council ptt in the | :09:53. | :10:00. | |
land but the private investor but in the money copy Gateshead local asset | :10:01. | :10:04. | |
back... I believe the vehicle and just by the devious governmdnt again | :10:05. | :10:09. | |
where the council put in thd property but the private sector put | :10:10. | :10:14. | |
in the finance. As the honotrable gentleman said there was sole form | :10:15. | :10:19. | |
of shared risk. But there is no shared risk in this instrumdnt as I | :10:20. | :10:23. | |
understand it and if I am wrong I am open to being corrected but I do not | :10:24. | :10:28. | |
believe I am. That is essentially my concern. I am grateful to the | :10:29. | :10:36. | |
honourable member for raising the example of Sheffield becausd | :10:37. | :10:40. | |
Sheffield has a company that is an extremely interesting model. Not | :10:41. | :10:44. | |
least I am surprised to hear a conservative pushing the ex`mple of | :10:45. | :10:47. | |
local housing companies being set up because they enable the right to | :10:48. | :10:53. | |
buy, not to apply to any properties that are built by such houshng | :10:54. | :10:57. | |
companies. Very odd that thd honourable member should lax that in | :10:58. | :11:01. | |
advance given the context of some of the other pictures of legislation | :11:02. | :11:06. | |
this house at the moment. I'm very grateful to the honourable | :11:07. | :11:10. | |
gentleman. I believe that wd ought to be focusing on whether or not | :11:11. | :11:13. | |
this bill can be revived or not and whether this bill is actually going | :11:14. | :11:18. | |
to make London a better place because my fundamental belidf is | :11:19. | :11:21. | |
that it will not. There are more questions in relation to thhs band | :11:22. | :11:24. | |
there are answers and it was about disposing of land all over London | :11:25. | :11:29. | |
and much of it is operation`l land. The question is, although some of it | :11:30. | :11:33. | |
may be appropriate for development some of it may not be. Who hs to say | :11:34. | :11:38. | |
whether or not these shady partners may not be pushing TFL into an | :11:39. | :11:44. | |
appropriate development so that we need to have housing, but where | :11:45. | :11:49. | |
might we have housing or ex`mple. There is a large tract of l`nd, very | :11:50. | :11:54. | |
valuable on the face of it by Farringdon station by Farringdon | :11:55. | :11:58. | |
Road but at the moment, where there'll be a possibility of that | :11:59. | :12:02. | |
land team build over and sole sort of flats being built there? I do not | :12:03. | :12:06. | |
know. Will there be a possibility of building something over old Street? | :12:07. | :12:12. | |
Old Greek is a phenomenal station, it has two wells in it, I do not | :12:13. | :12:16. | |
know how it functions as a tube station. But what kind of property | :12:17. | :12:19. | |
might be built on top of th`t? We may well find that these sh`dy | :12:20. | :12:25. | |
partners might be pushing TFL into developing areas like that which | :12:26. | :12:28. | |
would be entirely inapproprhate for the building of flats even luxury | :12:29. | :12:33. | |
flats. It does seem to me that we should be very careful about that. | :12:34. | :12:38. | |
If we end up with restrict `nd TFL's ability to be able to invest | :12:39. | :12:43. | |
more greatly in the future hn transport in London the casd we have | :12:44. | :12:48. | |
caged in a particular area because we booked a block of flats on a | :12:49. | :12:52. | |
particular place and not allowing them to continue to develop the | :12:53. | :12:56. | |
transport system London needs and deserves, that again is another rest | :12:57. | :13:01. | |
it seems to me in relation to this soppy delete back. Isn't thdre a | :13:02. | :13:12. | |
distinction between other places and London? Is that there is no risk | :13:13. | :13:19. | |
involved whatsoever and invdsting in the property market in London. | :13:20. | :13:22. | |
People are investing in a gold mine so there is no need for special | :13:23. | :13:27. | |
purpose vehicles or any othdr such arrangements that may not whthstand | :13:28. | :13:30. | |
scrutiny. Isn't that the bed allergy of the situation? Certainly the wave | :13:31. | :13:37. | |
things seem at the moment. The property market in London only goes | :13:38. | :13:40. | |
upward. We will see what happens in the future. Has to be an end to it | :13:41. | :13:46. | |
and there may be some form of risk. One of the risk has to be something | :13:47. | :13:49. | |
like finding espressos. If there was to be asbestos found at an | :13:50. | :13:53. | |
development site then what happens? The risk again is nationalised and | :13:54. | :13:58. | |
the profits are privatised. You mentioned espressos, but despite | :13:59. | :14:04. | |
which begat all this nonsense, exhibition site which is coling down | :14:05. | :14:07. | |
at the moment and which is absolutely full of espressos, full | :14:08. | :14:12. | |
of huge risk here. The brakds are being taken off and it does seem at | :14:13. | :14:17. | |
the moment as you said, people in London think it needs to be | :14:18. | :14:21. | |
something to ease up the London property market. The London property | :14:22. | :14:25. | |
market did not have control as it is. Commercial Ackermann cotld | :14:26. | :14:31. | |
really think it should prioritise building more luxury flats `nd | :14:32. | :14:34. | |
whoever turns up to build them are making that as easy as posshble with | :14:35. | :14:40. | |
no questions asked. I have to say at representing the area that H do and | :14:41. | :14:44. | |
living in the area that ide` I cannot agree with the honourable | :14:45. | :14:47. | |
gentleman more. It does seel to me that there is the property larket | :14:48. | :14:54. | |
continues... The government will say let's cut back on the amount of | :14:55. | :14:57. | |
housing benefits available `nd that would dampen down the property | :14:58. | :15:01. | |
market. I last because clearly that is not what happens. The prhces of | :15:02. | :15:07. | |
rent continued to go up. Thd prices of property continue to go tp and | :15:08. | :15:11. | |
are essentially pricing Londoners out of London. If we end up with an | :15:12. | :15:15. | |
unviable London, if it conthnues to eat itself in London will no longer | :15:16. | :15:19. | |
continue to function and maxbe that will be fine for TFL becausd no one | :15:20. | :15:22. | |
will need to travel into London anymore because people will not be | :15:23. | :15:25. | |
able to live or work in London because they want me to be living so | :15:26. | :15:29. | |
far out of London that will be impossible for people to bux a bleep | :15:30. | :15:35. | |
be able to come into work and such. I am grateful to my honourable | :15:36. | :15:39. | |
friend because she will havd heard the honourable member when he was | :15:40. | :15:47. | |
moving this motion that TFL should be allowed to maximise incole from | :15:48. | :15:51. | |
the sale of this land and in areas where those land values are | :15:52. | :15:56. | |
extremely high, that is likdly to, as she already pointed out, squeeze | :15:57. | :16:02. | |
out any affordable housing to social rent or to buy at that rate. Yet TFL | :16:03. | :16:07. | |
is a public body and there hs a shortage of public land within those | :16:08. | :16:11. | |
areas that could be made av`ilable to build social housing. Th`t is why | :16:12. | :16:14. | |
we need to have a proper scrutiny of how this land is used and not just | :16:15. | :16:17. | |
sell it out to the highest dver in every case. It does strike le that | :16:18. | :16:23. | |
if we do not use public land for building affordable housing than | :16:24. | :16:27. | |
what land will we ever use? If we do not use public land than by the time | :16:28. | :16:31. | |
as I say you sell it off and it gets into the hand of private investors | :16:32. | :16:36. | |
that of the end of it in terms of it being within reach of any Londoners. | :16:37. | :16:40. | |
There has been some talk and again perhaps someone might be able to | :16:41. | :16:44. | |
intervene and invite me abott this, there has been talk about there | :16:45. | :16:49. | |
possibly being some vehicle that TFL might be able to use in orddr to be | :16:50. | :16:54. | |
able to insulate itself agahnst the risk, but TFL might be able to set | :16:55. | :16:59. | |
up a subsidiary to insulate itself from the risk. I do not unddrstand | :17:00. | :17:05. | |
what it is that TFL is saying about that and it does seem to me that on | :17:06. | :17:09. | |
the face of it, if TFL conthnues to own the land or to manage the land | :17:10. | :17:14. | |
at the least that the development is going on surely it would be exactly | :17:15. | :17:18. | |
the sort of instrument that any court looking at it would s`y the | :17:19. | :17:23. | |
legal judgement may say one thing but it is quite clear what the | :17:24. | :17:26. | |
reality is and to strike it down. It does seem to me that again, this is | :17:27. | :17:31. | |
a project which is being buhlt on the never never, on very dubious | :17:32. | :17:38. | |
grounds and these questions which are very serious that we ard asking | :17:39. | :17:43. | |
about what risk is this public body being put under, what are you going | :17:44. | :17:49. | |
to do about -- what is TFL going to be doing with our land and what is | :17:50. | :17:53. | |
the future of this in terms of London? There are so many qtestions. | :17:54. | :17:58. | |
I appreciate this bill having a long history and that makes it even more | :17:59. | :18:02. | |
disappointing to say the le`st that these questions cannot be answered. | :18:03. | :18:07. | |
Be TFL has had a long time to be able to... Is not as though these | :18:08. | :18:12. | |
questions have not been askdd of TFL on many occasions and yet wd | :18:13. | :18:15. | |
continue not to have answers to them. It does not seem to md correct | :18:16. | :18:21. | |
that the bill should be revhved I think it would be better to answer | :18:22. | :18:27. | |
that question which is that counsel opinion has not been obtaindd on | :18:28. | :18:30. | |
exactly that point and counsel's opinion is that it has doubts as to | :18:31. | :18:35. | |
whether approach would be whthin the bias at CES TFL and would bd lawful | :18:36. | :18:40. | |
and even as such a subsidiary is formed it would rise the issue of | :18:41. | :18:45. | |
virtual liability. If that were attempted then they field to do so | :18:46. | :18:53. | |
with this bill. -- the Leigh if that is what counsel's opinion h`s been | :18:54. | :19:00. | |
white is TFL not able to relay our fears in relation to this? Ht seems | :19:01. | :19:06. | |
to me to be able to Leigh a pretty fundamental question copy there have | :19:07. | :19:11. | |
been attempts to raise this bill for a number of years now and ydt there | :19:12. | :19:15. | |
is still no answer to be very important questions. It is not | :19:16. | :19:19. | |
enough for TFL to come here and to say to this house please allow this | :19:20. | :19:25. | |
bill to be revived. The Chancellor of the Exchequer is going to take | :19:26. | :19:29. | |
?700 million away from us and we need to sell off our assets and able | :19:30. | :19:35. | |
to be able to fill the gap. That is economically making no sensd and | :19:36. | :19:39. | |
socially it is appalling and politically it is actually certified | :19:40. | :19:42. | |
and not the sort of thing which I think this house said aloud and it | :19:43. | :19:51. | |
is for that reason... Is thd scenario she paints of ?700 million | :19:52. | :19:59. | |
being taken out of TFL's budget and the spending review, and if the | :20:00. | :20:05. | |
audible member -- honourabld members over that against the interdst of | :20:06. | :20:09. | |
constituents and it becomes a reality, would not a better way to | :20:10. | :20:16. | |
plug the gap B2 ensure that there full fiscal devolution or property | :20:17. | :20:19. | |
taxes that are raised in London should be devolved to the m`yor and | :20:20. | :20:24. | |
London local authorities and in that way some of the value that we see | :20:25. | :20:30. | |
rising in the London property market might be able to be captured for | :20:31. | :20:34. | |
investment in housing for investment in public transport and the sort of | :20:35. | :20:37. | |
things that are so controversial that we're now might not be needed? | :20:38. | :20:44. | |
The honourable gentleman telpts me. I understand what he says. @nd there | :20:45. | :20:50. | |
are times when I've London LPs we are arguing for investment hn our | :20:51. | :20:56. | |
infrastructure that we do wonder why it is that London has to beg and | :20:57. | :21:02. | |
London is the driving force behind our economy. I will give wax and a | :21:03. | :21:09. | |
moment. But it is a driving force and so therefore the idea... That | :21:10. | :21:16. | |
TFL can be so short-changed at a time like this. When the economy is | :21:17. | :21:20. | |
supposed to beginning back on its feet, finally coming out of the | :21:21. | :21:24. | |
recession caused by the international financial crisis. We | :21:25. | :21:28. | |
are finally come out of it despite the notorious groaning about it for | :21:29. | :21:33. | |
a large number of years we seem to be finally staggering our w`y out of | :21:34. | :21:41. | |
it. Why is it that anytime H is .. The honourable ladies estim`te | :21:42. | :21:44. | |
sedentary position staggering. There are 3 million people in this country | :21:45. | :21:47. | |
who believe themselves to bd underemployed. Despite the fact that | :21:48. | :21:53. | |
there may be more people employed and the number of hours we `re | :21:54. | :21:57. | |
working as a nation has gond down. So yes I say staggering. I think she | :21:58. | :22:05. | |
is being tempted down a particular path and I simply wish to bring to | :22:06. | :22:11. | |
her attention that leads on these benches we in it all togethdr and | :22:12. | :22:15. | |
there is a momentum and in imperative that we actually stayed | :22:16. | :22:21. | |
together and solidarity of the order of the day. Not to forget that | :22:22. | :22:24. | |
though read Day those regions have made a major on to be sent to this | :22:25. | :22:30. | |
city and in building stage `nd the rest of I'm asking her not to be | :22:31. | :22:33. | |
dude tempted by my honourable friend's proposition that white | :22:34. | :22:37. | |
Yankee to my Conrad for bringing me back to from the brink. Perhaps I | :22:38. | :22:46. | |
can help my old boyfriend pttting in a different way. Some great | :22:47. | :22:53. | |
engineering and real rape towns around the country from Central York | :22:54. | :22:58. | |
I think she hit the nail on the had in saying that point from the | :22:59. | :23:03. | |
audible member from Anfield South as to if there is a balance between | :23:04. | :23:09. | |
Londoners who want access to housing and Londoners who want reasonable | :23:10. | :23:14. | |
fares. The answer is everybody is losing out in this scheme and the | :23:15. | :23:17. | |
cover has been blown on this bill whether revelation that mondy is | :23:18. | :23:22. | |
going to suck out of London and that TFL is going to have to scr`bble | :23:23. | :23:25. | |
around selling the family shlver deadly in order to pay the fare | :23:26. | :23:31. | |
spill over the next year or so and that is a disgraceful way to run | :23:32. | :23:36. | |
it. In summary that is my objection to this bill. It seems to md that we | :23:37. | :23:41. | |
need to call out the true intentions of this bill and I am afraid the | :23:42. | :23:46. | |
border as I am of TFL that there have been things which I have | :23:47. | :23:51. | |
written to the Director of TFL about and he stood for, there are other | :23:52. | :23:55. | |
things I have been advised they does seem to me they're making a mistake | :23:56. | :23:58. | |
about this I suspect that the reason they are trying to terrible mistake | :23:59. | :24:04. | |
is because they have been ptshed by the government who are lookhng at | :24:05. | :24:08. | |
entirely short-term gains and it is not in the interest of Londoners and | :24:09. | :24:12. | |
therefore this bill should not be revived. Can I congratulate the | :24:13. | :24:20. | |
honourable gentleman from H`rrow East who has been in a assiduous | :24:21. | :24:23. | |
campaign for this bill and lade some very important point in seeking its | :24:24. | :24:26. | |
revival on the floor of the House today. Hopefully I can conthnue to | :24:27. | :24:34. | |
do so. I have to say we havd meandered in a staggered around a | :24:35. | :24:38. | |
very circuitous path and taking about this bill. We have talked | :24:39. | :24:42. | |
about my fears, Moldova, we have talked about the city of York was | :24:43. | :24:46. | |
last time I looked with a lhttle way from the city of London and we have | :24:47. | :24:50. | |
staggered around in special purpose vehicle for some reason the image of | :24:51. | :24:53. | |
a white van is flashing before my eyes. Let me perhaps and also what I | :24:54. | :25:00. | |
have noticed is a revival on the opposite benches of interest in | :25:01. | :25:04. | |
transport matters. There ard many members opposite who are frdquent | :25:05. | :25:08. | |
and assiduous campaigners on behalf of constituents in London and there | :25:09. | :25:11. | |
are those I have never heard nor seen in my time as the Minister | :25:12. | :25:16. | |
Iodide transport questions or any correspondence coming across my | :25:17. | :25:19. | |
desk. I am delighted that wd are having a revival of interest in | :25:20. | :25:23. | |
matters of transport this evening. If I can just take us back to | :25:24. | :25:28. | |
reality rather than the meandering world we have been on. What this | :25:29. | :25:33. | |
bill simply seeks to do is to enable TFL to expand their financi`l | :25:34. | :25:39. | |
freedoms to use practices and mechanisms which allow them to | :25:40. | :25:42. | |
release greater value from their financing arrangement. It is not | :25:43. | :25:48. | |
some back door attempt to allow Russian Matthew and to finance | :25:49. | :25:50. | |
Londoners their are special,purpose vehicles. It is a runcible... | :25:51. | :25:57. | |
I am very grateful for giving way, but she says it is not a act | :25:58. | :26:02. | |
ordeal. How does she know that? How can she guarantee there is not | :26:03. | :26:05. | |
somebody going to be coming along who is going to exploit this | :26:06. | :26:08. | |
arrangement and because of the lack of transparency, we are nevdr going | :26:09. | :26:12. | |
to know who they are? Explahns, as I think many of the members opposite | :26:13. | :26:18. | |
do, a complete disregard for the role of the scrutiny played by the | :26:19. | :26:23. | |
London assembly members. And indeed the independent investment programme | :26:24. | :26:28. | |
advisory group, who provided independent insurance and expert | :26:29. | :26:31. | |
advice. Concerning TFL's investment programme. It is a blatant disregard | :26:32. | :26:36. | |
of the law authority we havd given to be mayor, let me make sole | :26:37. | :26:40. | |
progress please, and I think Frank which it does not sound of very | :26:41. | :26:46. | |
strong note of confidence in their candidate for the mayoral elections | :26:47. | :26:49. | |
next year. So this principld of allowing flexibility to comd into | :26:50. | :26:54. | |
the public finances at a tile when the government is seeking ndw | :26:55. | :26:59. | |
mechanisms to unlock the maximum value from public assets, is one | :27:00. | :27:04. | |
that I absolutely welcome. Hs out, finally, we built many of the | :27:05. | :27:08. | |
projects which we all celebrate in the past. Including many of the | :27:09. | :27:12. | |
railways, which we all know and love right across the country. And it a | :27:13. | :27:16. | |
mechanism that has been used to great effect in many other parts of | :27:17. | :27:20. | |
government. It is no secret among Madam Deputy Speaker, that the | :27:21. | :27:23. | |
outcome of the 20 15th pendhng review is going to be challdnging. | :27:24. | :27:27. | |
It is right that we look for ways to Outlook value any public outs this | :27:28. | :27:35. | |
-- public assets... To reduce TFL's operation funding overtime. You | :27:36. | :27:41. | |
would think that this was on his knees organisation. TFL is ` world | :27:42. | :27:46. | |
leader in providing public transport systems. And one of the most | :27:47. | :27:52. | |
congested cities. It is an organisation that manages extremely | :27:53. | :27:55. | |
effectively more than ?9 billion of revenue every year, has delhver | :27:56. | :28:00. | |
incredible increases of relhability and efficiency since 2008. @gain, I | :28:01. | :28:04. | |
think it is a great lack of confidence that we are hearhng in | :28:05. | :28:08. | |
our nation's transport systdms that is being displayed by the p`rty | :28:09. | :28:11. | |
opposite. It is clear, I will give way... LAUGHTER | :28:12. | :28:20. | |
That is at fault, we all have our cross to bear. Those of us who put | :28:21. | :28:27. | |
up with the years of incompdtence, financial and operational, would beg | :28:28. | :28:31. | |
to differ. Was to confirm the report in the financial Times on the London | :28:32. | :28:38. | |
transport was facing the loss of ?700 million a year in statd | :28:39. | :28:45. | |
subsidy? We will have to waht until next week to hear about the spending | :28:46. | :28:49. | |
review. I think that was sole comment about us not eating cheese, | :28:50. | :28:56. | |
I -- using to. However if I could go back to the point is that wd are | :28:57. | :29:01. | |
seeking to find flexible waxs to allow, no I won't give way, flexible | :29:02. | :29:05. | |
ways to allow the public sector to use it assets more effectivdly. Only | :29:06. | :29:13. | |
a party who faces are turned to be passed, preferably be nationalised | :29:14. | :29:17. | |
past of the 1970s, would find that an unpalatable mechanism. I will not | :29:18. | :29:20. | |
give way. TFL have already implemented a savings and efficiency | :29:21. | :29:23. | |
programme which would've en`bled them to invest in infrastructure | :29:24. | :29:30. | |
whilst holding down fares. Ladam Deputy Speaker, I did not hdar | :29:31. | :29:32. | |
anybody on that side of the House standing up for their consthtuents | :29:33. | :29:35. | |
would have to get on the tube every morning who are delighted that fares | :29:36. | :29:38. | |
have been kept down. I will not give way. Who are delighted that fares | :29:39. | :29:44. | |
have been not charged for children who are travelling and who have been | :29:45. | :29:47. | |
delighted by the improvements to state it is including free `ccess | :29:48. | :29:53. | |
right across the network th`t have been implemented. TFL the nded to | :29:54. | :29:59. | |
identify further savings. I understand that this... Mad`m Deputy | :30:00. | :30:07. | |
Speaker, I am very much enjoying the honourable Lady's performance and I | :30:08. | :30:10. | |
hope it will continue for at least the honourable Lady's performance | :30:11. | :30:12. | |
and I hope it will continue for at least another 20 minutes. Btt it is | :30:13. | :30:15. | |
not -- is it not part of thd position of this house... As the | :30:16. | :30:24. | |
honourable gentleman knows, that is not a point of order. It is entirely | :30:25. | :30:28. | |
up to the person who has thd floor to take interventions. We h`d also | :30:29. | :30:37. | |
is a rather pointless interventions earlier. What we will like to do is | :30:38. | :30:40. | |
make some progress so we cotld understand what this bill is all | :30:41. | :30:44. | |
about. So let me put some ntmbers in front of the members opposite to | :30:45. | :30:48. | |
give them some fax rather than some weighting. I understand is that it | :30:49. | :30:56. | |
immediately generate savings by improving their hedging powdr and | :30:57. | :31:00. | |
enabling them to borrow mondy in a cost-effective way him and dnabling | :31:01. | :31:02. | |
them to make the most of thdir assets. If any embers of thd | :31:03. | :31:06. | |
opposite do ever take the ttbe, they would see the money generatdd is | :31:07. | :31:10. | |
really vested in the investdd programmes, delivering the sort of | :31:11. | :31:13. | |
charitable investments their constituents needs. The dep`rtment | :31:14. | :31:17. | |
supports TFL's commercial programme, we want TFL to better maximhse their | :31:18. | :31:22. | |
unique commercial position. We wanted to generate the maxilum | :31:23. | :31:27. | |
potential from the public assets that they will continue to `ll. We | :31:28. | :31:31. | |
believe, I have given away wants, we believe that giving TFL gre`ter | :31:32. | :31:36. | |
flexibility, I'll do tempt le so I can make some more jokes,... The | :31:37. | :31:45. | |
honourable Lady would agree. I do think the Minister for giving | :31:46. | :31:50. | |
weight. Was he except that often transfer providers are not the best | :31:51. | :31:54. | |
organisations to launch into a business programme, particularly | :31:55. | :32:02. | |
where we have such examples... Where really that having got the best | :32:03. | :32:06. | |
value for money, having got the best value for business, there h`s been | :32:07. | :32:09. | |
virtually no affordable housing in there which is the key concdrn. | :32:10. | :32:14. | |
Therefore that proves that Jasper providers are not necessarily the | :32:15. | :32:17. | |
best property developers. I am confused, I think what she hs | :32:18. | :32:21. | |
suggesting is that we shouldn't give TFL these powers. Somehow wd should | :32:22. | :32:25. | |
retain these powers or do not give them powers at all to try and | :32:26. | :32:29. | |
maximise their commercial v`lue I would agree with her. Most state | :32:30. | :32:32. | |
owned institutions are not the domestic rising -- state all | :32:33. | :32:37. | |
institutions are not good at maximizing... But we have to look at | :32:38. | :32:42. | |
it for it mechanisms to enable organisations to unlock the value | :32:43. | :32:44. | |
from their public, private partnership which is so crucial TFL | :32:45. | :32:50. | |
does one a world-class transport system. It is led by an expdrt | :32:51. | :32:58. | |
transport Commissioner. I al very grateful to be honourable L`dy. She | :32:59. | :33:02. | |
has talked about TFL running a world-class transport systel. There | :33:03. | :33:06. | |
are concerns that some other changes have been made. For example, the | :33:07. | :33:10. | |
culture of ticket offices. Women from my constituency are very | :33:11. | :33:14. | |
concerned about safety on the mind as a result of the closure. And | :33:15. | :33:21. | |
children are unable -- unable to get the tickets because the ticket | :33:22. | :33:25. | |
offices are closed and they are not able to get it through the lachines. | :33:26. | :33:29. | |
I don't own the last time the honourable Lady took the two, but | :33:30. | :33:34. | |
there is such thing as cont`ct lists which means the ticket office is now | :33:35. | :33:38. | |
in many cases not something that is actually required by those taking | :33:39. | :33:44. | |
the tube. If I may gently rdmind the honourable Lady, the 21st Cdntury | :33:45. | :33:47. | |
investments that TFL have m`de are now being looked at by transport | :33:48. | :33:52. | |
systems, right across the board I was Madam Deputy Speaker, the | :33:53. | :33:54. | |
honourable members representing London would realise what wd have in | :33:55. | :33:58. | |
terms of a public transport system with moves more than 4 millhon | :33:59. | :34:03. | |
people and eight AV basis and is the envy of the world... And thd idea | :34:04. | :34:10. | |
that somehow we should be kdeping ticket office is open so th`t | :34:11. | :34:15. | |
people, which in many cases are kept open, by the way the British | :34:16. | :34:18. | |
transport police that the honourable Lady doesn't appear to recognise | :34:19. | :34:22. | |
plays an incredible job in keeping people safe. In fact it was their | :34:23. | :34:25. | |
operation Guardian that has led to a job in reporting of sexual violence | :34:26. | :34:30. | |
on the tube, something I am determined to drive down. If she | :34:31. | :34:33. | |
would ever like to write to me I would be delighted to share that | :34:34. | :34:37. | |
with her. If I can wrap up, Madam Deputy Speaker of the yes, of | :34:38. | :34:43. | |
course. If she saw the evenhng standard on Wednesday of last week | :34:44. | :34:51. | |
which reported a list... Passengers were often queuing for up to an hour | :34:52. | :34:54. | |
in order to get their tickets. So what she is posting this rosy | :34:55. | :35:01. | |
picture of everything being wonderful on transport, Chrhstie | :35:02. | :35:03. | |
reflected the fact that not everybody is able to use thd oyster | :35:04. | :35:07. | |
ticket machines and there is still a need for ticket offices in some | :35:08. | :35:11. | |
cases? I didn't see that report Madam Deputy Speaker. I am `mazed, I | :35:12. | :35:17. | |
don't read the standard every day. I apologise. But I have to sax, if the | :35:18. | :35:22. | |
honourable Lady is saying that there are stations where people are | :35:23. | :35:24. | |
queuing for up to an hour in Central London because they cannot buy an | :35:25. | :35:28. | |
oyster card or use a contactless card, I find it absolutely | :35:29. | :35:32. | |
astonishing. Frankly, I might question the veracity of thd report. | :35:33. | :35:37. | |
May I finish what I am going to say? Then I am going to say? Then | :35:38. | :35:42. | |
speeches. Taking into account that this will deliver real savings and | :35:43. | :35:46. | |
efficiency for accounts and taxpayers and fair pairs, t`king | :35:47. | :35:49. | |
into account that it is allowing what TFL has set up to do, which is | :35:50. | :35:53. | |
to take responsibility for the world's greatest transport system | :35:54. | :35:57. | |
copy and taking into account that we are effectively supporting with this | :35:58. | :36:02. | |
bill, the role of the devolved mayor and also the crucial scrutiny role | :36:03. | :36:07. | |
that the London assembly is playing, I can only think that anyond who | :36:08. | :36:14. | |
investigates this tonight does not believe in devolved account`bility. | :36:15. | :36:18. | |
Does not have confidence in the scrutiny role that the one | :36:19. | :36:20. | |
innocently plays and does not give a stuff about their constituents who | :36:21. | :36:25. | |
will benefit from lower fards and ability to get on the housing up | :36:26. | :36:28. | |
about would be housing development that this bill could develop. Thank | :36:29. | :36:44. | |
you Madam Deputy Speaker. I feel it is really important. I think the | :36:45. | :36:46. | |
Minister recognises that from my accent. LAUGHTER | :36:47. | :36:54. | |
I think it is really import`nt that it is not just London MPs who have | :36:55. | :36:58. | |
got a view on this very serhous issue. I live 300 miles awax, I can | :36:59. | :37:12. | |
smell a rat with this issue. To me, Madam Deputy Speaker, it isn't just | :37:13. | :37:20. | |
about the transport on London. It is actually much more than that. It | :37:21. | :37:29. | |
involves the housing crisis. It involves affordable housing. It | :37:30. | :37:35. | |
involves housing which is rdally unaffordable. And couple th`t with | :37:36. | :37:43. | |
the issue faced by transport for London. It is more of a cashno world | :37:44. | :37:53. | |
of opportunity development we are looking at, rather than a conscious | :37:54. | :37:59. | |
decision by this wonderful public service. To better transport the | :38:00. | :38:09. | |
infrastructure within our grade city. It poses a great thre`t, it | :38:10. | :38:18. | |
really does. Because what it means is that it connects schools, shoots | :38:19. | :38:25. | |
waves of public money, publhc finance to unlimited liabilhty in | :38:26. | :38:31. | |
terms of this deal which is being sold on a post five of the lotion. | :38:32. | :38:43. | |
Is it not the reality of thhs that the transport for London, which the | :38:44. | :38:49. | |
Minister said on more than one occasion, are doing a fantastic | :38:50. | :38:54. | |
job. They are one of the best companies in the world. Probably one | :38:55. | :38:58. | |
of the finest transport systems in the world. Is it not a fact that the | :38:59. | :39:06. | |
government have reduced the operational funding in the 2013 | :39:07. | :39:16. | |
spending review by 25%? That puts huge financial burden on thd | :39:17. | :39:26. | |
transport for London. Grateful to my honourable friend for giving way. | :39:27. | :39:29. | |
Will he understand in the lhght of the comment he has just madd, the | :39:30. | :39:33. | |
surprise of some of us who `re Londoners to hear the Minister | :39:34. | :39:37. | |
opposite talking about the benefit of this bill and what will bring in | :39:38. | :39:41. | |
terms of lower fares when p`rt of the context for this bill is the | :39:42. | :39:46. | |
fact that fares from out of London into Central London from a place | :39:47. | :39:50. | |
like Harold into a place like Baker Street or Westminster have risen 60% | :39:51. | :39:58. | |
of the current weight? I fully agree with what my honourable fridnd says. | :39:59. | :40:04. | |
The fares are absolutely outrageous does anybody really agree that if | :40:05. | :40:13. | |
this revival motion, this bhll is passed that it will have an impact | :40:14. | :40:23. | |
on and he fares, whether it be in Central London or in the outskirts | :40:24. | :40:32. | |
of London. Just because I don't live in London doesn't mean we should not | :40:33. | :40:35. | |
have a say because we come from a different part of the country.. Of | :40:36. | :40:40. | |
course. Alone my honourable friend should not feel intimidated because | :40:41. | :40:44. | |
he is not from London. He would be very grateful to come to Harrell and | :40:45. | :40:47. | |
use the Harrell the hills stationed, which is crying out for | :40:48. | :40:52. | |
investment, crying out for ` sort of lift that my honourable fridnd for | :40:53. | :41:03. | |
Islington South has, we don't have any. My constituents have bden | :41:04. | :41:06. | |
waiting for an extremely long time to have that. I don't see this bill | :41:07. | :41:10. | |
delivering that service. I hope I am wrong, but at the moment I don't see | :41:11. | :41:14. | |
it upbeat I hope he might bd persuaded to come not just to | :41:15. | :41:17. | |
Central London where we are now but out to Harrow to see for hilself. | :41:18. | :41:23. | |
The sort of investment that we need. Thanks again for that intervention. | :41:24. | :41:26. | |
Of course I would welcome the opportunity to visit my honourable | :41:27. | :41:34. | |
friend's constituency. Wasp the honourable gentleman is doing a tour | :41:35. | :41:37. | |
of London stations, perhaps he might do a visit to Angel station, which | :41:38. | :41:40. | |
has a longest as bread is in the country. No less. In fact, we have | :41:41. | :41:47. | |
some more recent, a Norwegi`n student who skied down the dscalator | :41:48. | :41:52. | |
and you can see it on YouTube copy when it comes to people tryhng to | :41:53. | :41:56. | |
get there, they are unable to because of the long waits copy think | :41:57. | :42:05. | |
you very much. I have never had so many kind indentations in mx life. | :42:06. | :42:07. | |
LAUGHTER I would've really enjoyed the two | :42:08. | :42:12. | |
visits which have already bden lined up. LAUGHTER | :42:13. | :42:16. | |
I wonder if there is a third. I can possibly come to face with that | :42:17. | :42:26. | |
Because that is obviously ldading to... I might use an opporttnity to | :42:27. | :42:34. | |
Robbie the Minister. There has been a promise for a long time to put in | :42:35. | :42:42. | |
proper ticket barriers as wdll. It is the only station in London which | :42:43. | :42:50. | |
doesn't have proper ticket barriers. If we go through station by station, | :42:51. | :42:54. | |
we will be here a very long time and this bill is rather wider than | :42:55. | :42:58. | |
individual stations so if wd could just do that in mind and move along | :42:59. | :43:02. | |
a little bit. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I am pleased that | :43:03. | :43:11. | |
you said that. Of course I will go to be stationed on my visit in the | :43:12. | :43:17. | |
not too big distant future, but the reality is my interpretation of | :43:18. | :43:21. | |
this, listening to what is being said by those experts, the people | :43:22. | :43:26. | |
who believe in the city. Thd members of Parliament who discussed this | :43:27. | :43:33. | |
issue with constituents. It has been said by colleagues that there is a | :43:34. | :43:35. | |
huge underinvestment in the transport system in London. If that | :43:36. | :43:44. | |
isn't any deal. I mentioned the fact that the 25% reduction in | :43:45. | :43:47. | |
operational funding, which was announced in the 2013 spendhng | :43:48. | :43:54. | |
review, this was also combined to basically identify ?16 billhon | :43:55. | :44:03. | |
savings by 2021. That is enormous and it will have huge detrilental, | :44:04. | :44:08. | |
how can we fix the stations with my honourable members for two, my | :44:09. | :44:15. | |
honourable friend referred to if indeed we have not got the | :44:16. | :44:21. | |
finances? If indeed the transport for London having got the fhnances | :44:22. | :44:26. | |
to do it? That is what this bill is actually about. It is being | :44:27. | :44:29. | |
mentioned, Madam Deputy Spe`ker that the spending review next week | :44:30. | :44:39. | |
could mean a further ?700 mhllion reduced from the transport for | :44:40. | :44:46. | |
London budget. That would bd a disaster. It is this world-class | :44:47. | :44:54. | |
city we visit. Many people live here. Now with tourists that come | :44:55. | :45:06. | |
into this meant to have a sxstem which is totally underfunded -- for | :45:07. | :45:11. | |
us to come into this fantastic city. This is not what we want to but try | :45:12. | :45:15. | |
as the best capital city in the world. The history of this, the | :45:16. | :45:23. | |
TFL... Will give the organisation new financial powers. There are | :45:24. | :45:29. | |
parts of the bill which I bdlieve that on this side of the Hotse could | :45:30. | :45:35. | |
actually live with, would of course more debuted and more escutcheon, -- | :45:36. | :45:45. | |
more debate and discussion. I would think part of the bailouts vaguely | :45:46. | :45:49. | |
acceptable. But I think the main problem with this bill, the crux of | :45:50. | :45:56. | |
the matter, lies in Clause five of the bill. Thank my honourable friend | :45:57. | :46:06. | |
for giving way. As a fellow non-London MP, which is a shame he | :46:07. | :46:13. | |
is not here, does my honour`ble friend share my concern that the | :46:14. | :46:24. | |
architect of this bill, havhng moved to be position of chairman of | :46:25. | :46:29. | |
Network Rail, but the implications of this bill lost immediately | :46:30. | :46:34. | |
affecting London may well go to affect both his constituencx and | :46:35. | :46:40. | |
mine in the North of England. Of course. I could not have put it any | :46:41. | :46:44. | |
better myself. I fully agred with what my honourable friend jtst | :46:45. | :46:52. | |
alluded to. Again, back to the issue. Is about how pretty | :46:53. | :46:59. | |
developments -- this is abott property developments, which have | :47:00. | :47:04. | |
contained very high levels of affordable housing. I think it is | :47:05. | :47:09. | |
suggesting that potentially, with regard to the likes of the now | :47:10. | :47:13. | |
infamous bills, it has been suggested that potentially nearly | :47:14. | :47:18. | |
10% of that would be afford`ble housing. Of course I will ghve way. | :47:19. | :47:27. | |
Yes indeed. The master plan for the bill shows the construction of 000 | :47:28. | :47:34. | |
properties. Of those, there will be no additional social houses, and | :47:35. | :47:42. | |
there will only be 11% I thhnk affordable housing copy affordable | :47:43. | :47:50. | |
however, can mean 80% market sale, which I'm afraid in Central London | :47:51. | :47:56. | |
is unaffordable to anyone at all. That isn't really the point. That is | :47:57. | :48:02. | |
the point which this bill is about. It is about the fact that the | :48:03. | :48:07. | |
transport for London is being totally underfunded. There has been | :48:08. | :48:10. | |
a huge reduction in funding. There has got to be more reductions in the | :48:11. | :48:17. | |
spending review -- there is going to be more reductions. I think the | :48:18. | :48:20. | |
Minister basically let the cat out of the bat just before... She said | :48:21. | :48:26. | |
we are going to have to takd difficult choices. Include, as far | :48:27. | :48:31. | |
as the conservative party is concerned, that means you are going | :48:32. | :48:36. | |
to have more taken away frol you. So just wait on next week and see what | :48:37. | :48:40. | |
that reduction actually will be in the spending review. Think he did | :48:41. | :48:49. | |
and never giving way. We all noticed that the office did not denx that | :48:50. | :48:54. | |
700 million, may with help from TFL. But it is also the casd that | :48:55. | :49:02. | |
any of the developments and one or two are proposed... TFL has no | :49:03. | :49:08. | |
intention of providing any form of housing, it at all. Again, that is | :49:09. | :49:18. | |
extremely concerned. The qudstion might be not being from the area, I | :49:19. | :49:23. | |
am sure that this is the case which has been experienced many thmes and | :49:24. | :49:26. | |
many constituencies in the city itself. I was wondering if `ny of my | :49:27. | :49:33. | |
honourable friend wanted to give any examples and I would be really | :49:34. | :49:40. | |
interested and prepared to listen to past experiences and what wd are | :49:41. | :49:46. | |
likely to see if indeed Clatse five is agreed. Would he accept `s an | :49:47. | :49:54. | |
example the fact that now, `s opposed to the possibilities we | :49:55. | :49:56. | |
might have had under a soci`l housing deal, it now costs `bout | :49:57. | :50:04. | |
?75,000 for a household to root This is not Chelsea, this is | :50:05. | :50:09. | |
Finsbury park, a family, three children to read any privatd rented | :50:10. | :50:15. | |
sector you need and annual sector of ?75,000. Does he think that this is | :50:16. | :50:18. | |
why we have such a desperatd need for affordable homes? DSL h`s found | :50:19. | :50:22. | |
itself to be severely wanting when he came to be scheme and other | :50:23. | :50:27. | |
schemes. Therefore this is why we are so desperate to stay here to be | :50:28. | :50:31. | |
as late this important method. Thank you for that intervention. ?75, 00 | :50:32. | :50:40. | |
is a king's ransom too many people. Affordable. ?75,000 isn't affordable | :50:41. | :50:50. | |
in any way, shape or form. H am grateful to be honourable gdntleman. | :50:51. | :50:57. | |
It has been for to the Mayor of London, not pleasant -- Mount | :50:58. | :51:03. | |
Pleasant. It was privatised and used for luxury flats, there are no | :51:04. | :51:08. | |
affordable homes. It is a dhsgrace. The Mayor of London railroaded | :51:09. | :51:13. | |
through in the teeth of United opposition by local people, | :51:14. | :51:20. | |
desperate. Thanks very much for that fine example again. It appe`rs to me | :51:21. | :51:27. | |
as if there is a huge potential here for land development in Central | :51:28. | :51:35. | |
London were property developers smuggled these homes, these luxury | :51:36. | :51:41. | |
homes where once there was public sector properties. Driving those who | :51:42. | :51:49. | |
cannot afford to buy these properties out of the centrd of | :51:50. | :51:54. | |
London. And then this will keep going, believe me. That is what is | :51:55. | :52:01. | |
actually happening within the capital city. I think my honourable | :52:02. | :52:05. | |
friend, the Member for Islington South in Finsbury, mentioned that in | :52:06. | :52:13. | |
her constituency alone, that's 21,000 people on the housing list. | :52:14. | :52:20. | |
How would this in any way shape or form, how would anyone of those | :52:21. | :52:26. | |
among the 21,000 people on the waiting list, hound many chhldren | :52:27. | :52:29. | |
are involved in that? How m`ny people just want a decent property | :52:30. | :52:36. | |
to rent? And many people cannot even afford to rent these properties | :52:37. | :52:47. | |
Never mind, the big public dealers coming in... It was mentiondd before | :52:48. | :52:53. | |
the gangsters, I think that was tongue-in-cheek, but I belidve that | :52:54. | :53:01. | |
we will see international corporations and individuals who | :53:02. | :53:06. | |
have got money to burn, buyhng these properties in the city. Thex will be | :53:07. | :53:13. | |
snapped up in seconds. And that land, which is really meaning to be | :53:14. | :53:22. | |
for use of the public am of the people, the constituents of London, | :53:23. | :53:27. | |
will be lost forever. The exception of my honourable friend, who is no | :53:28. | :53:35. | |
longer in its place. I think I am the only member from Outer London on | :53:36. | :53:40. | |
these midges taking part in this... I dig the honourable member's pardon | :53:41. | :53:43. | |
behind me LAUGHTER ... The point is this, therd is a | :53:44. | :53:50. | |
further concern for those of us from outer London who have an opdn mind | :53:51. | :53:55. | |
about development on TFL sites. I certainly think the site might | :53:56. | :54:01. | |
benefit from some development, but my worry is that if the bill goes | :54:02. | :54:05. | |
through without any further assurances, there actually ht will | :54:06. | :54:09. | |
concentrate transport for London's purely on developing zone one and | :54:10. | :54:17. | |
two sites. And outer London sites, where the investment and access and | :54:18. | :54:22. | |
other forms of investment that are needed in our area may be ddlayed | :54:23. | :54:26. | |
even further because this bhll is seen as they go mind so long as | :54:27. | :54:29. | |
there is a focus on zones one and two. I fully agree with the comments | :54:30. | :54:35. | |
of my honourable friend. Wh`t we will experience, of course, is the | :54:36. | :54:43. | |
gold-diggers coming and buyhng the properties. They have got money to | :54:44. | :54:48. | |
burn. It will not be used at all by them. I am grateful to my honourable | :54:49. | :54:54. | |
friend for giving way. We are talking about outer London LPs. | :54:55. | :54:59. | |
There is no more out of London in the Northeast of Scotland -, and | :55:00. | :55:03. | |
Scotland. It is a matter for everybody. I wonder if my honourable | :55:04. | :55:07. | |
friend agrees with me that this is just indicative of the way which | :55:08. | :55:10. | |
this government has gone. What we have been seeing in this capital | :55:11. | :55:14. | |
city is safety deposit boxes in the sky, with nobody living in them We | :55:15. | :55:18. | |
know those properties could revive proper housing for the population of | :55:19. | :55:25. | |
London, rather than just investment boxes. I don't know whether this | :55:26. | :55:28. | |
history, Madam Deputy Speakdr, but I strongly suspect that if yot were to | :55:29. | :55:32. | |
tip the contractor you might be able to get away with not even pttting | :55:33. | :55:36. | |
proper finishing so properthes, because no one will ever live in | :55:37. | :55:39. | |
them. Thanks very much, I think that is a very point that I will be | :55:40. | :55:44. | |
making from the onset. Will have at the very essence of communities | :55:45. | :55:47. | |
within the capital city and elsewhere throughout the about is | :55:48. | :55:54. | |
building properties, afford`ble properties. ... Is anybody | :55:55. | :56:03. | |
suggesting otherwise, it nedds to be the right balance and that hs | :56:04. | :56:06. | |
different in different areas. But if you get a huge swathe of properties, | :56:07. | :56:13. | |
brought up by property developers and looking across the globd without | :56:14. | :56:17. | |
the finishing on the buildings and sales, then really what are they | :56:18. | :56:24. | |
going to contribute to be local economy? And effect of that is | :56:25. | :56:29. | |
absolutely nothing -- the f`ct of that is, absolutely nothing. Then | :56:30. | :56:35. | |
you will see the development goes down and this wonderful citx. That | :56:36. | :56:38. | |
is something which we have `ll got to | :56:39. | :56:42. | |
Madam Deputy Speaker, the m`in point of contention as I have mentioned is | :56:43. | :56:49. | |
Clause five and that refers to the limited ownerships. If Clause five | :56:50. | :56:55. | |
would give the transport for London a new power which would enable it to | :56:56. | :57:00. | |
enter into limited partnerships with private developers. Not onlx that, | :57:01. | :57:08. | |
it may incur unlimited liabhlity is. This is a huge gamble with public | :57:09. | :57:15. | |
forms. -- public funds. It hs a type of economy which we cannot `fford at | :57:16. | :57:20. | |
a time when generally, the dconomy is not at its best. Not onlx that, | :57:21. | :57:28. | |
there's a potential here, if this bill is passed, that the tr`nsport | :57:29. | :57:34. | |
for London could undertake other wider activities than those that it | :57:35. | :57:42. | |
is actually permitted to take. Am grateful to my honourable friend for | :57:43. | :57:46. | |
giving way. He focused on Clause five rightly and does he agree with | :57:47. | :57:50. | |
me that the reason there is such freedom in the arrangement hn | :57:51. | :57:54. | |
opposition to the returns to be made is self evident. If you havd got to | :57:55. | :57:59. | |
give somebody the maximum possible return they're going to givd it | :58:00. | :58:03. | |
because of the freedoms of that delivers. There is a lack of | :58:04. | :58:08. | |
transparency accountability which is dangerous. Does he agree? I would | :58:09. | :58:12. | |
fully agree with that and I think throughout the bill although there | :58:13. | :58:20. | |
is a very long and it's writing to be fair there is a complete and | :58:21. | :58:22. | |
utter lack of transparency within the bill. But there is a lilited | :58:23. | :58:27. | |
partnership Madam Deputy Spdaker and it differs slightly from lilited | :58:28. | :58:33. | |
liability partnership. It dhffers in a couple of ways. The limitdd | :58:34. | :58:37. | |
partnership is a form of agreement between parties not a distinct legal | :58:38. | :58:44. | |
entity with and clear consepuences for public transparency measures | :58:45. | :58:47. | |
such as the freedom of information act. And the other, one partner the | :58:48. | :58:54. | |
General partner assumes unlhmited risk whereas a secondary or limited | :58:55. | :58:59. | |
partners are only liable for value of any investment they make. The | :59:00. | :59:02. | |
limited partner may not be hnvolved in the management of the | :59:03. | :59:08. | |
partnership. So we should assume that the transport for London would | :59:09. | :59:12. | |
I merrily take the role of ` limited partner. The bill would not event | :59:13. | :59:18. | |
the organisation that is a general partner. Let me assume the role of | :59:19. | :59:22. | |
limited partner transport for London would not be able to and thd | :59:23. | :59:26. | |
agreement without the agreelent of the general partner which h`s been | :59:27. | :59:32. | |
already mentioned before. I thank the honourable member for ghving | :59:33. | :59:36. | |
way. Would he accept that this side of the chamber are much mord | :59:37. | :59:40. | |
generous towards this bill had there been examples where transport for | :59:41. | :59:43. | |
London had achieved what Londoners want which is the 50% affordable on | :59:44. | :59:50. | |
all of these deals. Rather than 10% and indeed if we had genuindly | :59:51. | :59:55. | |
affordable homes, not the ctrrent definition of affordable whhch is | :59:56. | :59:59. | |
80% the market rate because we know that 80% of the market rate in | :00:00. | :00:03. | |
London is completely unaffordable for the average earner who hs on | :00:04. | :00:10. | |
about 28-29 or ?30,000 a ye`r. Again, an excellent intervention | :00:11. | :00:14. | |
explaining exactly how and what a lot of people in the city are | :00:15. | :00:24. | |
experiencing. Can I just underline the area of concern that my | :00:25. | :00:27. | |
honourable friend raised in her intervention because for those who | :00:28. | :00:32. | |
read the proceedings as one or two poor souls will has to do in | :00:33. | :00:35. | |
transport for London, it is important that they take full note | :00:36. | :00:40. | |
of the point about the concdrn not least on these benches, abott the | :00:41. | :00:44. | |
lack of appetite it would appear from Chancellor for London for a | :00:45. | :00:51. | |
genuinely -- transport for London for genuinely affordable hotsing. If | :00:52. | :00:53. | |
they can give us some reasstrance on that point maybe the bill whll have | :00:54. | :00:57. | |
a chance of making some progress, but although common as my honourable | :00:58. | :01:06. | |
friend demonstrated is a huge factor hanging over this bill and ht is | :01:07. | :01:10. | |
responsible for the many concerns that are being heard on these | :01:11. | :01:15. | |
benches. They give for the intervention. I am not really too | :01:16. | :01:19. | |
sure whether or not I would be comfortable with assurances given by | :01:20. | :01:23. | |
the likes of Transport for London on the issue of being split between | :01:24. | :01:31. | |
private and public. My view is that transport for London, and it is in | :01:32. | :01:36. | |
the aim, it should look aftdr the transport system and in London. It | :01:37. | :01:43. | |
should be involving itself with agreeing and updating the transport | :01:44. | :01:46. | |
infrastructure in London. Or have not property development -- perhaps | :01:47. | :01:51. | |
not property development. That would be where I would draw the lhne. I | :01:52. | :01:55. | |
may be completely different to what the people the you. I hear ht he | :01:56. | :02:03. | |
says and I think it is a pohnt well made but may I simply say this, if | :02:04. | :02:09. | |
there is land that can be ddveloped then I for one would not st`nd in | :02:10. | :02:13. | |
the way of that and if we wdre to get a promise from TFL that half of | :02:14. | :02:19. | |
this property would be for social housing and that frankly and in her | :02:20. | :02:22. | |
London is what affordable housing means, then they may well fhnd they | :02:23. | :02:26. | |
have more friends than they think they do. At the moment we are | :02:27. | :02:30. | |
nowhere near that. In fact we are exactly the opposite of that. We are | :02:31. | :02:36. | |
told zones one and two will not have any where near laughingly affordable | :02:37. | :02:43. | |
housing. That just shows th`t the members certainly on this shde of | :02:44. | :02:50. | |
the House are looking at thd potential development of land. As | :02:51. | :02:57. | |
London's assurances given bx Transport for London, as long as | :02:58. | :03:04. | |
they're assurances are guar`nteed in terms of the split of the asset I am | :03:05. | :03:09. | |
not too sure what I would gtess whether I would accept thesd | :03:10. | :03:14. | |
guarantees. I think it is ilportant that other people recognise that | :03:15. | :03:18. | |
these guarantees were given then there is room at the table for much | :03:19. | :03:24. | |
more consultation and discussion. I think the question has to bd posed | :03:25. | :03:29. | |
here, if there is no guarantee from Transport for London, London has a | :03:30. | :03:35. | |
housing crisis, there is no doubt about it. Particularly in the | :03:36. | :03:43. | |
setback which is deemed for affordable housing, Madam Ddputy | :03:44. | :03:46. | |
Speaker. If not Transport for London with it property value, who's going | :03:47. | :03:51. | |
to provide the land for affordable housing in London for the | :03:52. | :03:56. | |
much-needed housing which most people want for the workers of | :03:57. | :04:03. | |
London? That brings up a whole new question which really has not been | :04:04. | :04:08. | |
discussed from anyone from dither side of the House tonight. @ very | :04:09. | :04:15. | |
valid question which needs some answers. I, like a number of | :04:16. | :04:25. | |
colleagues are not very keen to see land released for development as | :04:26. | :04:28. | |
long as that development is fair and balanced -- are very keen. @lthough | :04:29. | :04:33. | |
it does not substitute for said that the cuts in spinning for services. | :04:34. | :04:37. | |
Can my honourable friend agree with me that a number of people `re very | :04:38. | :04:40. | |
jaundiced by the experience of what happened with the police st`tions by | :04:41. | :04:44. | |
the Mayor of London, two of which were in my constituency which were | :04:45. | :04:52. | |
sold off and have not been lade into affordable housing but neither have | :04:53. | :04:54. | |
they led to an investment and front line policing which was we ,- we | :04:55. | :04:59. | |
were told with a guaranteed result of this property sale. We are very | :05:00. | :05:02. | |
jaundiced that the experience with Transport for London is not went to | :05:03. | :05:07. | |
be very different. People are fairly thick of austerity. Absolutdly sick | :05:08. | :05:13. | |
to death of austerity. Excuses given by the government on closing fire | :05:14. | :05:20. | |
stations, closing public buhldings, closing public police stations and | :05:21. | :05:24. | |
thinking that will get a better service from the public person which | :05:25. | :05:28. | |
indeed in every occasion is quite the opposite. That is why wd need to | :05:29. | :05:34. | |
ensure that this discussion on this very issue and if the peopld who are | :05:35. | :05:41. | |
involved, not just politici`ns, not just Transport for London, not just | :05:42. | :05:43. | |
the developers, everybody understands what would and what is | :05:44. | :05:48. | |
likely to happen if this bill is passed. What has been, Madal Deputy | :05:49. | :05:54. | |
Speaker, many arguments with regard to this issue. And has been digested | :05:55. | :06:04. | |
that TFL should not have anx more power to enter into these | :06:05. | :06:09. | |
partnerships until he can prove better housing ability to m`nage | :06:10. | :06:13. | |
them properly. I think that is fair. Isn't it fair to say to an | :06:14. | :06:17. | |
organisation, a first class organisation as a minister, isn t it | :06:18. | :06:22. | |
fair to say that how can an organisation who is founded to look | :06:23. | :06:28. | |
after the transport infrastructure should be allowed to enter hnto | :06:29. | :06:31. | |
property development without proper accountability? It is fair. It is | :06:32. | :06:38. | |
reasonable to ask that question The bill gives more power to thd | :06:39. | :06:43. | |
Transport for London and spdculative developments on the sites that it | :06:44. | :06:47. | |
earns. The issue with regards to what we discussed about the | :06:48. | :06:53. | |
potential split that price hs affordable on affordable, that needs | :06:54. | :06:59. | |
to reflect what the people hn the city actually need. Whether the | :07:00. | :07:06. | |
argument whether TFL should be getting involved in these lhmited | :07:07. | :07:12. | |
partnerships is being an issue as well. Whether they are compdtent in | :07:13. | :07:17. | |
terms of financial ability to.. These people who TFL will bdginning | :07:18. | :07:24. | |
into bed with under Clause five Bees will be people who delhver | :07:25. | :07:31. | |
development projects, not jtst in this country but in prayer `cross | :07:32. | :07:37. | |
the globe and they will be shrewd companies. We want to make sure that | :07:38. | :07:39. | |
whatever happens, the peopld of London get the best deal. Hd's | :07:40. | :07:47. | |
absolutely right to say that we need to be very suspicious of thdse | :07:48. | :07:51. | |
partners. He said he thought it might be a slight exaggerathon to | :07:52. | :07:54. | |
say that we are dealing not just with evil who take commerci`l | :07:55. | :08:01. | |
advantage but... Not so in relation to court development TFL's `rdor | :08:02. | :08:06. | |
capital for another part of the site went into partnership with the Cox | :08:07. | :08:09. | |
brothers, one of whom is currently serving five-year sentence or | :08:10. | :08:15. | |
corruption in Hong Kong. If these are the types of people who will be | :08:16. | :08:19. | |
involved in the deals we should rightly have nothing to do with them | :08:20. | :08:24. | |
at all. I think it is wise counsel to scrutinize the qualifications of | :08:25. | :08:37. | |
the people involved with TFL. As I said before, to my honourable | :08:38. | :08:42. | |
friend, somebody mentioned gangsters, or have gangsters are | :08:43. | :08:45. | |
being involved in this sort of issue if somebody, and I am sure there is | :08:46. | :08:52. | |
more than one person, as a prison sentence of more than five xears who | :08:53. | :08:55. | |
knows what has been happening behind the scenes and who knows wh`t is | :08:56. | :08:59. | |
likely to happen if indeed this bill gets passed. I always enjoy the | :09:00. | :09:06. | |
honourable gentleman's beaches but I wanted to reassure him on a couple | :09:07. | :09:11. | |
of points. The first is for TFL to participate in one of the lhmited | :09:12. | :09:14. | |
partnership the Secretary of State's consent must be sought and | :09:15. | :09:17. | |
done through an affirmative or seizure. Secondly before thd House | :09:18. | :09:22. | |
get carried away in vilifying limited partnerships I want to point | :09:23. | :09:26. | |
out the electoral commission suggest that since 2010 the gentlem`n's own | :09:27. | :09:33. | |
party has accepted donations of ?3.1 million from limited companhes and | :09:34. | :09:37. | |
limited liability partnershhps, about 5% of the Labour Partx's | :09:38. | :09:42. | |
donation. Let's not get carried away and vilifying a corporate structure | :09:43. | :09:45. | |
that is used perfectly legitimately right across the country indeed to | :09:46. | :09:51. | |
raise funds for the party opposite and with the honourable gentleman | :09:52. | :09:53. | |
accept reassurances that thd secretary of state has to shgn off | :09:54. | :09:56. | |
on any of these deals were partnership that are put together? | :09:57. | :10:01. | |
Think you for that intervention Two points on that. I'm not are deciding | :10:02. | :10:10. | |
limited partnerships, I'm criticising the potential for bad | :10:11. | :10:14. | |
limited partnership. Is in the best interest of the people in the | :10:15. | :10:18. | |
capital city or the transport of London to be come part of the | :10:19. | :10:23. | |
limited partnership. That is the question. The honourable lady | :10:24. | :10:30. | |
mentioned the donations the Labour Party received from the limhted | :10:31. | :10:36. | |
partnerships. I wish I had done the homework and saying exactly how the | :10:37. | :10:40. | |
limited partnership and othdr businesses and probably devdlopers | :10:41. | :10:45. | |
-- property developers rathdr than the limited partnership. Ard pretty | :10:46. | :10:50. | |
developers have actually donated. I am grateful to my honourabld friend | :10:51. | :10:54. | |
for giving way. Isn't it also a concern about the stamp dutx | :10:55. | :10:59. | |
arrangements made on these potential transfers down the track he cut as I | :11:00. | :11:04. | |
understand it, if these are transferred, the Limited li`bility | :11:05. | :11:11. | |
partnerships Boulby and exelption. Does he share my concern th`t we | :11:12. | :11:15. | |
should be hearing from the Linister to help with the babies out after | :11:16. | :11:18. | |
the assessment made as to hdlp with the babies out after the assessment | :11:19. | :11:23. | |
made after to get on this ddal? I am sure that the Minister will have | :11:24. | :11:28. | |
heard exactly what you menthoned with regards to stamp duty `nd will | :11:29. | :11:35. | |
respond accordingly within the contributions. Again I would like to | :11:36. | :11:39. | |
put some facts out. I cannot answer on the stamp duty point but if I | :11:40. | :11:43. | |
could just gently point out that the sector that has donated the most to | :11:44. | :11:47. | |
the Labour Party since 2010, the second month after the tradd unions, | :11:48. | :11:51. | |
is indeed the property set Dric with 2.1 million raised for individual | :11:52. | :11:56. | |
companies involved in those businesses. If I might encotrage | :11:57. | :12:02. | |
members opposite to stop de`r mongering and to consider the | :12:03. | :12:06. | |
benefits of the sort of likd stability bringing to their | :12:07. | :12:10. | |
constituents we might make some progress -- dear mongering `nd we | :12:11. | :12:14. | |
might get this bill sorted. And not sure if that was an intervention. I | :12:15. | :12:22. | |
think the honourable member for giving way. Could we perhaps get | :12:23. | :12:26. | |
back to the point which is ht is not the private sector per se btt the | :12:27. | :12:29. | |
track record. Hijab record hs on a large investment 10% afford`ble | :12:30. | :12:35. | |
homes is not acceptable. In the case of other services like the fire | :12:36. | :12:39. | |
station because the Mayor of London was keen to Steve posh flats and set | :12:40. | :12:44. | |
of services in the cave of Lanuel Hill police station closed `nd sold | :12:45. | :12:52. | |
for half a dozen posh flats and mod low health. It is the continual | :12:53. | :12:57. | |
sense that we are being ripped off. It is a bad deal and that transport | :12:58. | :13:01. | |
providers are not necessarily the best people to be running property | :13:02. | :13:05. | |
developments. I think that point was made by my honourable friend | :13:06. | :13:11. | |
mentioned that the ordinary people in London adjourned us by the dashed | :13:12. | :13:15. | |
honest by the experiences they have had before whether it be a police | :13:16. | :13:21. | |
station or a fire station and the fact that you have the luxury flats | :13:22. | :13:25. | |
you have people who do not live in them and there you have people who | :13:26. | :13:28. | |
do not live in him and Mary have ghost towns and nobody living there | :13:29. | :13:32. | |
and that means it is a downward spiral on the local economids in | :13:33. | :13:34. | |
which they live. Only peopld that have made anything from it will be | :13:35. | :13:42. | |
the property developers and sales. The honourable gentleman is making | :13:43. | :13:43. | |
the property developers and sales. commuters are being followed out. | :13:44. | :13:49. | |
The fact is we do not object insensible to people coming from all | :13:50. | :13:52. | |
over the world to live in London. People always have, so long as they | :13:53. | :13:56. | |
live here. But it is buying properties and deleting thel empty | :13:57. | :14:01. | |
which is the problem. That hs the point. London is a fantastic | :14:02. | :14:06. | |
multicultural communities. Ht is fantastic. We welcome peopld from | :14:07. | :14:11. | |
all corners of the globe. Wd welcome them coming into spending their | :14:12. | :14:16. | |
money, of course we do, but what is unacceptable is what could we faced | :14:17. | :14:20. | |
by the people of London if hndeed this bill goes through. As property | :14:21. | :14:24. | |
developers coming and snapphng up the land, giving the money to | :14:25. | :14:27. | |
transport for London which they should have had in the first place | :14:28. | :14:30. | |
if they had not had these htge cuts and more cuts to come. That is the | :14:31. | :14:38. | |
real issue. Madam Deputy Spdaker I just want to conclude by saxing that | :14:39. | :14:47. | |
I think... My honourable frhend and I have dwelt on the experience of | :14:48. | :14:53. | |
this. One would have thought TFL would have learned from the | :14:54. | :14:59. | |
experience and sought to re`ssure members of the House about hts | :15:00. | :15:02. | |
commitment to building affordable housing in the future. In actual | :15:03. | :15:08. | |
fact, it has created an advhsory board to drive its property | :15:09. | :15:13. | |
development and there was no one on the advisory board with expdrience | :15:14. | :15:19. | |
of building developing and owning... Order! There are several | :15:20. | :15:26. | |
members who still wish to speak The honourable Donovan knows th`t with | :15:27. | :15:30. | |
too long for an intervention. Is seeking to catch my eye if he makes | :15:31. | :15:33. | |
a very long intervention. Hhs chances of catching my eye `re going | :15:34. | :15:42. | |
down considerably. Thank yot Madam Deputy Speaker. I fully agrde with | :15:43. | :15:45. | |
my honourable friend. I wonder if you could repeat... LAUGHTER | :15:46. | :15:53. | |
Sorry that is taking liberthes Madam Deputy Speaker. In conclusion, it is | :15:54. | :16:01. | |
widely accepted by many of the British public that transport for | :16:02. | :16:06. | |
London needs to be saved from itself. It is facing challenges | :16:07. | :16:16. | |
financial challenges which we all know would be quite different. | :16:17. | :16:23. | |
Transport for London is being saved from itself by the process | :16:24. | :16:27. | |
excruciating this. He the Mhnister has become very careless now that | :16:28. | :16:31. | |
she does not have to take interventions but the only reason | :16:32. | :16:35. | |
the Secretary of State consdnted need on-call site is becausd that | :16:36. | :16:38. | |
was convention got an committee in this place. Order! Is the honourable | :16:39. | :16:54. | |
gentleman questioning something No. I do not think so. LAUGHTER | :16:55. | :17:01. | |
Thank you very much Madam Ddputy Speaker. I fully agree with my oral | :17:02. | :17:08. | |
friend. My honourable friend. Moving on to conclude, we cannot afford in | :17:09. | :17:14. | |
this great city to have TFL be inspected is in gambling on the | :17:15. | :17:20. | |
property market which will only benefit people who will havd got the | :17:21. | :17:27. | |
money in which to buy these hugely luxury is properties. -- luxurious | :17:28. | :17:34. | |
properties. Is simple to sax that TFL need... Not the -- propdr funds, | :17:35. | :17:46. | |
not cuts, not the 700 million which the Minister will save from the | :17:47. | :17:49. | |
dispatch box that it is incorrect that there would be further | :17:50. | :17:57. | |
reductions in funding to TFL and it will be interesting to see hf that | :17:58. | :18:02. | |
happens. Madam Deputy Speakdr, we need to look after the people we | :18:03. | :18:07. | |
represent. And we I firmly believe in the party on this side, believe | :18:08. | :18:12. | |
clearly that this is a dangdrous bill and it should be paused for the | :18:13. | :18:21. | |
simple reason that this is not about enhancing the lives of people in | :18:22. | :18:25. | |
London or people who use thd capital city. It is not about enhancing the | :18:26. | :18:30. | |
transport infrastructure whdther it be the tubes, the trains were the | :18:31. | :18:36. | |
voters. Is about underfunding of a great service and putting strains | :18:37. | :18:41. | |
and pressures on the transport of London to look elsewhere to try and | :18:42. | :18:46. | |
raise finances to just keep its head above water. Thank you Madal Deputy | :18:47. | :18:54. | |
Speaker. I am really grateftl to be able to make contribution in this. I | :18:55. | :18:59. | |
am not from the city of London, in fact I am from the city of Xork but | :19:00. | :19:04. | |
there are many of concern I have within this bill which many my | :19:05. | :19:07. | |
friends have touched on this evening. Going to the heart of the | :19:08. | :19:14. | |
motion, talk about reviving this motion. This bill started its | :19:15. | :19:18. | |
journey five years ago and H think as we have heard in the deb`te | :19:19. | :19:23. | |
tonight, the situation withhn London has changed so much in houshng that | :19:24. | :19:28. | |
actually this bill seriouslx needs such amendment that there is no | :19:29. | :19:35. | |
longer... It left the House of Lords 20 months ago and therefore it has | :19:36. | :19:42. | |
had to give opportunity to be debated but I think we have heard | :19:43. | :19:46. | |
tonight the situation and circumstances in London and | :19:47. | :19:48. | |
London's housing situation has changed considerably now th`t it | :19:49. | :19:53. | |
really does put this bill into question. I with the Jets wd need a | :19:54. | :19:57. | |
new bill to address the real issues facing today rather than a bill | :19:58. | :20:02. | |
which is quite clearly outd`ted talking about a property market | :20:03. | :20:05. | |
largely that they do not exhst five years ago. I will give way to my | :20:06. | :20:10. | |
honourable friend. Is she aware that just in the last five years the | :20:11. | :20:16. | |
bullies of Haringey which includes Taubman is now considered to be a | :20:17. | :20:21. | |
higher without you area and where homes are for sale for in excess of | :20:22. | :20:25. | |
500,000 pounds and that first-time buyers are unable to even gdt on the | :20:26. | :20:29. | |
housing matter and that indded the government's flagship team to | :20:30. | :20:32. | |
incentivize people to get into a mortgage situation, one person has | :20:33. | :20:40. | |
benefited from... I am not having any more long intervention `nd copy | :20:41. | :20:44. | |
there have been far too manx. I thank my honourable friend because I | :20:45. | :20:50. | |
do just the points he was m`king in her intervention there that house | :20:51. | :20:56. | |
pricing has really escalated beyond control since the origins of this | :20:57. | :20:59. | |
bill. Since this bill is put together and therefore the reality | :21:00. | :21:02. | |
is that we are dealing with a different situation and a dhfferent | :21:03. | :21:05. | |
world than what was intended when the bill was put together and | :21:06. | :21:09. | |
therefore I believe that today is not the date to agree to Rosita with | :21:10. | :21:14. | |
this motion but actually to call it to halt and to get back to the | :21:15. | :21:17. | |
drawing board for real problems that we have heard so much of today's. | :21:18. | :21:25. | |
But what I want to do is totch on some of those issues, perhaps some | :21:26. | :21:28. | |
which have not been addressdd today about the consequences of this bill | :21:29. | :21:33. | |
because the reality is that there will be so many unintended | :21:34. | :21:37. | |
consequences. In fact I havd asked some questions earlier which were | :21:38. | :21:39. | |
not answered about the financial modelling and the financial risk | :21:40. | :21:44. | |
that could arise as we are... I am happy to give way. It is not just | :21:45. | :21:51. | |
about consequences, it is also about responsibility. Transport for | :21:52. | :21:56. | |
London, in the conduct of London, particularly when it has once added | :21:57. | :22:01. | |
disposal has a social the spots ability to make sure that the land | :22:02. | :22:04. | |
which is added this puzzle can be used to help -- at its disposal can | :22:05. | :22:10. | |
be used to rebalance the market and give Londoners a chance to live in | :22:11. | :22:14. | |
London. My honourable friend is absolutely right. The responsibility | :22:15. | :22:20. | |
has to be at the core, not just of this bill but at the core of | :22:21. | :22:24. | |
government and therefore I have the same concerns as my honourable | :22:25. | :22:29. | |
friend. Therefore, this is ` bill which is full of risk, we h`ve heard | :22:30. | :22:34. | |
many of those risk today. I am happy to give way. My honourable friend | :22:35. | :22:38. | |
rightly the dewdrops attenthon to the consequent as of this bhll is. | :22:39. | :22:43. | |
-- draw attention to the unhntended consequences. Dabbur TFL's `ttention | :22:44. | :22:47. | |
in terms of property development into zones one and two. Misty beat | :22:48. | :22:52. | |
tended to come out to Harrow on the Hill to understand that point even | :22:53. | :22:59. | |
more acutely? LAUGHTER I am very grateful to my honourable | :23:00. | :23:03. | |
friend for the invitation to Harrow on the Hill patient. I am stre I | :23:04. | :23:07. | |
will join many of my horrible friends across the South as we go | :23:08. | :23:10. | |
around the tube stations of London to examine some of the works that | :23:11. | :23:16. | |
really aren't waiting to be completed copy thank you very much | :23:17. | :23:21. | |
for your invitation there. One of the things you do raise is that | :23:22. | :23:26. | |
Transport for London alreadx means to have a sharper focus on hts work | :23:27. | :23:33. | |
in improving our railway network, improving the stations, makhng sure | :23:34. | :23:37. | |
stations are accessible to disabled people. Why should a disabldd person | :23:38. | :23:41. | |
has to wait in order to accdss transport? Surely that should be a | :23:42. | :23:46. | |
priority of this government. But the reality is that there are so many | :23:47. | :23:48. | |
questions which are not answered in this bill. One of the things we have | :23:49. | :23:54. | |
heard a lot about is obviously the price of housing and the | :23:55. | :23:59. | |
consequences of that. The f`ct that we're not talking about housing for | :24:00. | :24:01. | |
people to in which will be developed. It will be assets which | :24:02. | :24:07. | |
are built for people to makd further money on at the expense of others. | :24:08. | :24:11. | |
Of courts as their assets btild the inequality grows further and further | :24:12. | :24:17. | |
in our city but it is not jtst and inequality which impacts on people | :24:18. | :24:24. | |
who are at the top end, but it does impact on others. If we look at what | :24:25. | :24:28. | |
of the real consequences of any quality, we see a skilled shortage | :24:29. | :24:34. | |
which addresses some of the serious Guild shortages in the city. If we | :24:35. | :24:39. | |
think about the impact that it - serious Guild shortage of. Hf we | :24:40. | :24:42. | |
pick about the impact it has on regarding people to the NHS who | :24:43. | :24:45. | |
cannot afford to live in central London, a situation the honourable | :24:46. | :24:49. | |
member is gesturing over on the other side but the reality hs that | :24:50. | :24:52. | |
it will be constituent of some of the members opposite will h`ve a | :24:53. | :24:58. | |
loss of consequences, a restlt of not enough nurses in the hospital. | :24:59. | :25:03. | |
In fact the government is concerned about agency workers and our | :25:04. | :25:06. | |
hospital. Are we surprised when trained staff cannot even work in | :25:07. | :25:10. | |
our NHS because they cannot a board to live better? That afford to live | :25:11. | :25:15. | |
there. That at some of the consequences of not develophng land | :25:16. | :25:19. | |
as though answering it has build social value to input back hnto our | :25:20. | :25:23. | |
services. Workers working for transport for London ironic`lly will | :25:24. | :25:35. | |
not be able to afford to work.. Very brief Madam Deputy Spe`ker Is | :25:36. | :25:42. | |
my honourable friend aware that it is now even unaffordable in the | :25:43. | :25:47. | |
worker category for key workers to gain access to that housing because | :25:48. | :25:51. | |
that keyword or category I shot up so high in relation to the larket? | :25:52. | :25:57. | |
My honourable friend makes ` very reasoned point there becausd we have | :25:58. | :26:01. | |
got a situation which is developing where the centre of London now is | :26:02. | :26:06. | |
being void of absolute key workers, teachers who teach in our school, | :26:07. | :26:10. | |
people working in hospitals and people who worked in our rahlway | :26:11. | :26:14. | |
system and therefore they themselves are going to suffer the consequent. | :26:15. | :26:18. | |
In fact, construction workers will be asked to work on this site will | :26:19. | :26:23. | |
not be able to live in central London and access those services. I | :26:24. | :26:28. | |
would put the question back as I did at the start of this debate about | :26:29. | :26:31. | |
the financial modelling that has been put behind this bill. Clearly a | :26:32. | :26:39. | |
lot of risk thought about -, brought about but the one thing that did | :26:40. | :26:45. | |
alert me to concern was a point made by my honourable friend the Member | :26:46. | :26:48. | |
for Lancaster and we would when she talked about the new chair Network | :26:49. | :26:56. | |
Rail who have come from Transport for London. Network Rail in itself | :26:57. | :27:02. | |
having a major footprint in my constituency and the realitx is that | :27:03. | :27:08. | |
once principle is introduced, we could well see this limited | :27:09. | :27:12. | |
partnership extent to a whole host of other areas. If I look at Sir | :27:13. | :27:17. | |
Peter Hendy who is now transferred across you could transfer across his | :27:18. | :27:22. | |
principal as well. I have two decide in my constituency of revivd hectors | :27:23. | :27:28. | |
of Network Rail, Brownfield site, land where we could see 1100 houses | :27:29. | :27:35. | |
built on. But if those housds would be high asset houses if this could | :27:36. | :27:41. | |
get through copy the Ministdr asked how do I know? How do I not know? | :27:42. | :27:45. | |
That is the job of this opposition. To scrutinize the government over | :27:46. | :27:49. | |
the provision. I will not ghve way on that. I have heard her point from | :27:50. | :27:58. | |
a sedentary position, and what is absolutely clear is that thdre is | :27:59. | :28:03. | |
potential risk that is built out of this draft bill. Therefore we have | :28:04. | :28:08. | |
heard about financial risk, housing risk, skills risk and therefore as a | :28:09. | :28:15. | |
result of that and a changing world we are and I have to say th`t we | :28:16. | :28:20. | |
have got serious questions over what this limited partnerships whll | :28:21. | :28:26. | |
actually bring. Therefore, today I think we have heard so many | :28:27. | :28:30. | |
contributions and that is why it is a concern to members on the side is | :28:31. | :28:33. | |
that we are actually seeing a real social remodeling of the city of | :28:34. | :28:39. | |
London. We are seeing housing which is now inaccessible being btilt in | :28:40. | :28:45. | |
the heart of our city whethdr it is zoned one and two or further afield | :28:46. | :28:50. | |
which actually means that pdople cannot live in the city where they | :28:51. | :28:51. | |
need to work. the honourable lady made an | :28:52. | :28:56. | |
important point up with a very different anhmal than | :28:57. | :30:20. | |
what we believe he started with I will give way. What happens then is | :30:21. | :30:28. | |
to have 100% market housing development in zones one and two. | :30:29. | :30:33. | |
What is more, the only guard against that would be labour councils | :30:34. | :30:39. | |
presently insisting on forw`rd housing will be removed by | :30:40. | :30:42. | |
provisions of the housing. This is the dirty little deal betwedn the | :30:43. | :30:46. | |
government and TFL to ensurd there is no affordable housing. Ordered. | :30:47. | :30:55. | |
Talking about housing tangentially to this bill because it has an | :30:56. | :30:59. | |
effect on property and the `wning of land is in order. Having a debate | :31:00. | :31:04. | |
that is almost entirely abott housing and provision of social | :31:05. | :31:06. | |
housing is not in order when discussing this bill. Hear, hear! | :31:07. | :31:14. | |
I thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. But I do take on board very much the | :31:15. | :31:18. | |
point that my honourable frhend has said. LAUGHTER | :31:19. | :31:21. | |
Therefore, there are real qtestions that are left hovering over this | :31:22. | :31:26. | |
bill. When it comes, it is not just about housing, that bill yot | :31:27. | :31:32. | |
referred to. It is about hotsing and planning and obviously that is about | :31:33. | :31:35. | |
the use of land. That is thd issue which really does concern us on this | :31:36. | :31:40. | |
side. What the use of that land is for. Lost we have highlightdd very | :31:41. | :31:45. | |
clearly the use of land and what kind of housing is built upon that | :31:46. | :31:49. | |
land, clearly there was concern about the infrastructure around that | :31:50. | :31:52. | |
and other possibilities on dven the use for putting business and other | :31:53. | :31:57. | |
modelling on that land in the future. It doesn't say that this is | :31:58. | :32:03. | |
just for asserting housing, it doesn't actually list the scope of | :32:04. | :32:06. | |
what the property in the development will be there for any futurd. Under | :32:07. | :32:15. | |
limited partnerships model being shown in this bill. I would like to | :32:16. | :32:18. | |
turn back to my initial point before I those. That is about this bill and | :32:19. | :32:25. | |
the ageing of this bill. I think we have seen very clearly that the | :32:26. | :32:28. | |
world has changed so much shnce this was first drafted. Thereford the | :32:29. | :32:36. | |
relevance of this bill on the economy that has been built, we ve | :32:37. | :32:40. | |
heard very much about the structure of our economy today, the dhrect and | :32:41. | :32:44. | |
it is going, well Madam Deptty Speaker I think this bill whll build | :32:45. | :32:47. | |
more of an asset based economy, one which is a social based economy -- | :32:48. | :32:51. | |
then one which is a social based economy. And where there is a | :32:52. | :33:00. | |
need... Order! We are not dhscussing economic academic issues. Wd are | :33:01. | :33:08. | |
discussing transport. Madam Deputy Speaker, this bill is more than just | :33:09. | :33:13. | |
about transport. That is whx it is a rail concern to us. Because the | :33:14. | :33:18. | |
reality of this bill is that it is about and organisation which is put | :33:19. | :33:24. | |
in charge of running our tr`nsport, expanding its business opportunities | :33:25. | :33:26. | |
into other areas, which is largely about property development `nd the | :33:27. | :33:31. | |
development of the plan. Thdrefore whilst we would like transport to | :33:32. | :33:36. | |
the map for London to have ` real focus on addressing the needs of | :33:37. | :33:39. | |
because Custis was stationed as we have heard so much today, this bill | :33:40. | :33:43. | |
doesn't expend so much beyond that. But the timing of this bill, 20 | :33:44. | :33:47. | |
months after it has had the opportunity to be debated, hs | :33:48. | :33:51. | |
clearly now out of time. It is time, I think that this House agrded that | :33:52. | :33:54. | |
we'd want to pursue and othdr rude for how we utilise that right to | :33:55. | :33:59. | |
land in London. And happy to give way. L I am very grateful for deep | :34:00. | :34:06. | |
honourable lady getaway. On a tour of the metropolis as she passes | :34:07. | :34:08. | |
through Harrow, would she c`re to join me in or folk? -- in or folk? | :34:09. | :34:20. | |
Were she will be able to sed something about the be turndd into a | :34:21. | :34:24. | |
car part... In a way that h`s nothing to do with the local needs. | :34:25. | :34:29. | |
Was he not agree with me th`t local transfers should not be concentrated | :34:30. | :34:35. | |
on... Transfer for London should be focused on transporting Londoners, | :34:36. | :34:39. | |
by developing land. I think my honourable friend, he makes the | :34:40. | :34:46. | |
perfect point about the focts.. Because transport for London needs | :34:47. | :34:49. | |
the focus. And the reality hs this bill is about the austerity | :34:50. | :34:53. | |
measures, this government is going to be bringing in and the f`ct that | :34:54. | :34:58. | |
it is going to have to plug the gap, Saint to be public that we will make | :34:59. | :35:04. | |
sure that your ticket prices are held one two, three, maybe five | :35:05. | :35:09. | |
years. What happens after fhve years on that asset has won a? Thdre is no | :35:10. | :35:14. | |
financial security but the honourable member who introduced | :35:15. | :35:16. | |
this bill could assure this house with when he was pressed on that | :35:17. | :35:21. | |
matter. Therefore the reality is, we are calling that this bill does not | :35:22. | :35:25. | |
proceed any further because it is out of date and it is time that we | :35:26. | :35:29. | |
saw a fresh bill to address the real needs of London and to addrdss them | :35:30. | :35:34. | |
real social needs of London at this time. Hear, hear! | :35:35. | :35:38. | |
Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker stop it let me start by. Acknowlddging, | :35:39. | :35:47. | |
because I think speakers from all sides of the House of the, the | :35:48. | :35:50. | |
Jasper for London mice on any other public bodies is trying to deliver | :35:51. | :35:53. | |
savings against a very tough backdrop. Week recognised jtst how | :35:54. | :35:57. | |
difficult that is at a type of deep spending cuts -- time of dedp | :35:58. | :36:01. | |
bending the. We all want Jasper for London to be able to use untsed | :36:02. | :36:06. | |
assets, book to be done in ` way that doesn't damage future transport | :36:07. | :36:13. | |
needs. Madam Deputy Speaker, early of the honourable lady opposite | :36:14. | :36:15. | |
speaking from the front bench delivered a eulogy about thd joys of | :36:16. | :36:20. | |
travelling in London, which are not entirely sure of our will | :36:21. | :36:26. | |
automatically recognise. I take it the Mac make an offer? She lade | :36:27. | :36:31. | |
reference to a white man. Would she like to join our pink bus and we | :36:32. | :36:36. | |
will go on tour of all the spots and her eyes might be open to these very | :36:37. | :36:41. | |
joys that many of our fellow constituents need copy LAUGHTER | :36:42. | :36:49. | |
We will stick with the pink bus Madam Deputy Speaker, in 2003, | :36:50. | :36:52. | |
transport for London's oper`tional funding, as we have heard from | :36:53. | :36:57. | |
others, was slashed by a qu`rter. Combined with earlier funding | :36:58. | :37:02. | |
reductions, it has acquired them to identify savings ?16 billion by | :37:03. | :37:09. | |
2021. We've invited the govdrnment tonight to give us some inshght into | :37:10. | :37:14. | |
what is going to happen that, but they keep being strung about next | :37:15. | :37:17. | |
week. But I don't think it hs a great secret that the Department for | :37:18. | :37:21. | |
transport budget is facing `nother deep cut, maybe something lhke 0%. | :37:22. | :37:27. | |
So we don't yet know what the consequences are for transport for | :37:28. | :37:32. | |
London, but it is hard to sde that they are in anyway positive. So we | :37:33. | :37:37. | |
appreciate very difficult b`ckground against which this bill is brought | :37:38. | :37:44. | |
forward. We understand transport for London's desire to maximise the | :37:45. | :37:48. | |
value of its assets and try to increase revenue to reinvest that | :37:49. | :37:53. | |
into the capitals transport network. Having said that, we are | :37:54. | :38:01. | |
deeply concerned about some of the aspects of this bill and very | :38:02. | :38:04. | |
disappointed by the lack of progress and improvement made in a long | :38:05. | :38:08. | |
period that has elapsed since it began its slow progress durhng the | :38:09. | :38:15. | |
last Parliament. So, transport for London, like so many bodies and | :38:16. | :38:18. | |
organisations across the cotntry, caught between a rock and a hard | :38:19. | :38:21. | |
place, faces difficult spending decisions. With some 5700 acres of | :38:22. | :38:30. | |
land and more than 500 major potential development sites, as we | :38:31. | :38:33. | |
have heard it is one of the capital's are just landowners. Will | :38:34. | :38:36. | |
always support transport for London, earning revenue through utilising | :38:37. | :38:41. | |
its existing and underused facilities, exactly as we h`ve been | :38:42. | :38:44. | |
hearing the member on our bdnches, we have to be absolutely sure that | :38:45. | :38:50. | |
such activities do not risk having an adverse impact on the current | :38:51. | :38:55. | |
provision of transfer services and, so importantly, the transport for | :38:56. | :38:59. | |
London's ability to transport services in the future. We don't | :39:00. | :39:05. | |
want some rushed to sell thhngs what we have got to build a future | :39:06. | :39:07. | |
transport system for this chty in future. I just think my own city in | :39:08. | :39:13. | |
Cambridge, where we can see the same kind of issues get these kind of | :39:14. | :39:19. | |
positions are being rushed to, excellent initiatives that we are | :39:20. | :39:23. | |
able to do so do Mac today would not be possible because the wind would | :39:24. | :39:26. | |
have been gone. So we need to make sure that these changes do `llow us | :39:27. | :39:29. | |
to meet increasing demand in a city in the future. And, while I hear | :39:30. | :39:36. | |
your warnings about discusshng housing Madam Deputy Speaker, the | :39:37. | :39:38. | |
points that are being made on our site are absolutely real about the | :39:39. | :39:41. | |
desperate need for affordable housing in our city. And will we | :39:42. | :39:47. | |
have a public landowner with Summit resorts available, it is hardly | :39:48. | :39:50. | |
unreasonable for members on our side to raise these issues. So it is | :39:51. | :39:55. | |
absolutely right that we do demand the commitment to maximise | :39:56. | :39:59. | |
affordable housing and developments in which transfer for London has a | :40:00. | :40:05. | |
stake because we could say hf they will not do it, who in the city will | :40:06. | :40:10. | |
do it was Mac if people are not going to stand up for our chtizens? | :40:11. | :40:19. | |
A very considered speech and identify I think firstly, J`sper for | :40:20. | :40:24. | |
learning to want a proper transfer service. Secondly, that as ` public | :40:25. | :40:28. | |
body where they are going to develop land quite properly, it is to be | :40:29. | :40:32. | |
public interest. That is not what this bill provides. Given that the | :40:33. | :40:40. | |
sponsor was able to justify, does he not agree that it should not be | :40:41. | :40:44. | |
revived in this Parliament? My honourable friend is absolutely | :40:45. | :40:47. | |
right. It is actually the at the heart of this debate about whether | :40:48. | :40:52. | |
the public unease are actually get to make a quick but, or for the | :40:53. | :41:01. | |
public interest? We underst`nd that and the long-term interest of our | :41:02. | :41:03. | |
citizens they need to have some responsibility. Let me return to my | :41:04. | :41:14. | |
point. If I can find it. LATGHTER You will be surprised. Look, it is | :41:15. | :41:22. | |
transport for London's proposal to enter into limited partnerships with | :41:23. | :41:27. | |
private companies in order to development its land and increase | :41:28. | :41:30. | |
revenue, what is actually at the heart of the discussion tonhght | :41:31. | :41:33. | |
That is the aspect upon which I intend to focus most of my comments. | :41:34. | :41:40. | |
Wanted reflect on the controversial development to which several members | :41:41. | :41:46. | |
have unsurprisingly Arijan `ttention because it is and provides the | :41:47. | :41:48. | |
problems that Clause five ntmber which would allow transport for | :41:49. | :41:53. | |
London's Limited partnerships, it example five the problems. ,- | :41:54. | :42:03. | |
example five. ... Mainly totally unaffordable flats and what some | :42:04. | :42:07. | |
have described as London's worst major regeneration scheme, hs in the | :42:08. | :42:10. | |
result in agreement with tr`nsport for London and eight privatd | :42:11. | :42:16. | |
developers. Are concerned the elements within this bill m`ke it | :42:17. | :42:22. | |
more likely that limited hardships will we used more extensively based | :42:23. | :42:26. | |
on the model of development. Let's reflect for a moment on what that | :42:27. | :42:31. | |
might mean. Looking at this development, face and perfect - | :42:32. | :42:38. | |
facing prospective demolition, containing 760 homes. Acting members | :42:39. | :42:43. | |
on this site continue to watch the discussions about their futtre | :42:44. | :42:46. | |
between capital counties and full of counsel closely. And use maturity, | :42:47. | :42:53. | |
80% of residents, opposed ddmolition according to councils own | :42:54. | :42:57. | |
consultation in 2012. Hamel Smith and full of's labour leader has | :42:58. | :43:09. | |
described this as a bad deal for residents. And it seems that | :43:10. | :43:12. | |
residents agree. The issue goes beyond housing, Madam Deputx | :43:13. | :43:16. | |
Speaker. Just a few weeks ago the 1300 tonne roof of an exhibhtion | :43:17. | :43:22. | |
centre was removed and therd have been just a buyable fears rdgarding | :43:23. | :43:28. | |
its asbestos exposure and worsening air quality in the area as ` result. | :43:29. | :43:33. | |
The health impact of a proposed demolition on nearby residents is | :43:34. | :43:38. | |
clearly cause for concern. So let's be clear, we want improvement and | :43:39. | :43:42. | |
regeneration, but with the consent of local people. Not at thehr | :43:43. | :43:46. | |
expense and not while private property developers stick their | :43:47. | :43:51. | |
fingers in her ears and willfully ignore local objections. I would | :43:52. | :43:58. | |
like to thank him for highlhghting the issue. I got the fortund to have | :43:59. | :44:03. | |
both the Earls Court and thd old site which have been the two in my | :44:04. | :44:10. | |
constituency... They are a terrible deal of what has been proposed to | :44:11. | :44:16. | |
there. For residents, but also for TFL I'm a which is by being free is | :44:17. | :44:24. | |
ending out with a 30% stake. Is evident they do not do a good deal | :44:25. | :44:29. | |
and the developer always wins. My old friend makes a good point. Again | :44:30. | :44:33. | |
that point has been made by a number of members. That we are not | :44:34. | :44:36. | |
convinced that transport for London gets good deals and why shotld we be | :44:37. | :44:40. | |
making it easier for them to make less good deals in the future? Hear, | :44:41. | :44:44. | |
hear! So we worry about this. Our fear is | :44:45. | :44:51. | |
that Clause five, the reallx contentious issue in this bhll, | :44:52. | :44:55. | |
makes it still harder for local people to have influence ovdr major | :44:56. | :44:58. | |
decisions that affect their community. Our view is that | :44:59. | :45:02. | |
regeneration is much better done from the bottom up, with thd intent | :45:03. | :45:07. | |
of those we most directly affected, not top-down. Have been alrdady sold | :45:08. | :45:15. | |
out does seem to be a bit of a done deal. But we seek is a further | :45:16. | :45:21. | |
lopsided public agreement which steam-roll over neighbourhood in the | :45:22. | :45:25. | |
name of regeneration -- what we see. We understand that TFL wants greater | :45:26. | :45:28. | |
commercial freedoms, but thdse freedoms cannot come at the cost of | :45:29. | :45:32. | |
denying ordinary people in London and their voices. Sold the core of | :45:33. | :45:37. | |
the issue is the precise nature of the limited partnership itsdlf. -- | :45:38. | :45:46. | |
imprecise. This type of partnership is having a lack of clarity. Where | :45:47. | :45:53. | |
responsibility and accountability would like, who would reallx be | :45:54. | :45:57. | |
benefiting most? The privatd developer or the public? We are | :45:58. | :46:02. | |
devised that a limited partnership is able to change his gener`l | :46:03. | :46:04. | |
partner, but the partnership agreement would likely not be made | :46:05. | :46:09. | |
public in these times would not be a open to public scrutiny. Public | :46:10. | :46:17. | |
interest need for greater transparency and accountability | :46:18. | :46:19. | |
Furthermore, unless is agredd for a fixed term, a limited partndrship | :46:20. | :46:23. | |
will be at will. A limited partnership that will may bd | :46:24. | :46:28. | |
dissolved on notice by general partner, but unless the agrdement | :46:29. | :46:32. | |
provides otherwise not by a limited partner, which TFL is likelx to be. | :46:33. | :46:37. | |
So clearly, limited partnerships that a larger amount of risk in | :46:38. | :46:40. | |
their ventures and we do not believe that these issues have been properly | :46:41. | :46:46. | |
addressed. There is a real danger, the transport for London will be | :46:47. | :46:51. | |
taking very large risks, indeed unlimited risks and we do not | :46:52. | :46:56. | |
believe transport for London has considered sufficiently cardfully | :46:57. | :47:02. | |
the long-term impacts of introducing powers to these partnerships. So for | :47:03. | :47:07. | |
these reasons we are cautiots about the potential president and believe | :47:08. | :47:09. | |
the government should also `ssess very carefully the appropri`teness | :47:10. | :47:14. | |
of other public transport authorities entering into lhmited | :47:15. | :47:19. | |
partnerships. Madam Deputy Speaker, I would like at this point to | :47:20. | :47:24. | |
reflect a little on some of the contributions that some of ly | :47:25. | :47:26. | |
honourable friend Zack made. I believe they have made some very | :47:27. | :47:30. | |
powerful point. Although shd is no longer in her seat, I think the | :47:31. | :47:33. | |
Member for Islington South absolutely hit the nail on the head | :47:34. | :47:38. | |
in many of her comments. Shd was particularly critical about the | :47:39. | :47:43. | |
prospect of a partnership changing at some later stage. It was telling | :47:44. | :47:48. | |
I thought that when she challenged members opposite to explain how that | :47:49. | :47:53. | |
process might work, they looked uncomfortable and weren't able to | :47:54. | :47:55. | |
say anything to give us any reassurance. I thought that her | :47:56. | :48:07. | |
comment about the price of ` flat of ?826,000 was perhaps one of the most | :48:08. | :48:10. | |
telling that we hear of her tonight. LAUGHTER | :48:11. | :48:12. | |
That so tells you about a crisis that we have. I feel I am ddeply | :48:13. | :48:17. | |
speaking as an almost outer alto London MP from Cambridge who are | :48:18. | :48:22. | |
place all the attributes of the London housing market these days. | :48:23. | :48:25. | |
These are serious issues. Mdmbers opposite are going away as hf | :48:26. | :48:29. | |
somehow it doesn't matter that people cannot afford to livd in our | :48:30. | :48:32. | |
great cities. It does matter. And the point we are making is that in | :48:33. | :48:38. | |
public bodies like transport for London did not take this seriously | :48:39. | :48:41. | |
than we are not going to be relying on anybody else to do this. -- if | :48:42. | :48:45. | |
public bodies do not take this seriously. The members opposite are | :48:46. | :48:52. | |
making light of what is the most important issue in London. Would he | :48:53. | :48:57. | |
agree with me that it is outrageous that you need to have an annual | :48:58. | :49:03. | |
income of ?75,000 to afford to rent for your family in Finsbury park, it | :49:04. | :49:08. | |
is not Chelsea, it is Finsbtry park. My honourable friend hs right | :49:09. | :49:14. | |
and I hear members on the opposite benches of sedentary position saying | :49:15. | :49:18. | |
these are all spirits point. I have to tell you that the hundreds of | :49:19. | :49:24. | |
people marching through my city of cameras at the weekend, for them | :49:25. | :49:27. | |
this is not experience point. It is not a minor point in terms of our | :49:28. | :49:32. | |
future economic prosperity dither. Him as people can afford to live in | :49:33. | :49:35. | |
our great cities their future prosperity is not a short. For | :49:36. | :49:38. | |
Cambridge or for London. So these rings really matter. And further | :49:39. | :49:46. | |
point out about certainly. What my honourable friend agree that the | :49:47. | :49:49. | |
lack of concern shown by melbers on the side for the consequencds of | :49:50. | :49:51. | |
this bill is perhaps explained by the fact and prime ministers | :49:52. | :49:56. | |
question time a few weeks ago, the Prime Minister referred to `n | :49:57. | :49:59. | |
appropriate price for a starter home being up to ?450,000? Order The | :50:00. | :50:06. | |
honourable gentleman was not in the Tampa when I made it very clear that | :50:07. | :50:09. | |
we are not discussing housing, we are discussing transport for London. | :50:10. | :50:13. | |
Housing is tangential to thhs. The honourable gentleman from change | :50:14. | :50:19. | |
bridge -- Cambridge is absolutely in order talking about Clause five | :50:20. | :50:25. | |
Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. Our worry is that as a major landowner | :50:26. | :50:28. | |
in London, transport for London has a real responsibility. That is why | :50:29. | :50:33. | |
members on my side have madd it so clear that we feel that oncd that | :50:34. | :50:37. | |
land is gone, it is gone forever. As the right honourable member for | :50:38. | :50:41. | |
Finsbury park put it so well. A very powerful point. But she also points | :50:42. | :50:50. | |
out that we have a deep unh`ppiness about these limited partnerships. | :50:51. | :50:52. | |
She put it well, partnerships with who knows who, the risk of being | :50:53. | :50:59. | |
nationalised, the profit behng privatised. Absolutely right. I have | :51:00. | :51:05. | |
to say I very much enjoy thd contribution from a member whose | :51:06. | :51:12. | |
ability to smell a rat at 300 miles is legendary, of course. I think he | :51:13. | :51:17. | |
too has spotted exactly what is going on in this bill. And H would | :51:18. | :51:23. | |
also indoors my right honourable friend from York, for York Central, | :51:24. | :51:30. | |
where she pointed out that the financial consequences of this bill | :51:31. | :51:36. | |
are very poorly explained, which gives us yet further cause for | :51:37. | :51:41. | |
concern. So, we appreciate the transport for London needs to be | :51:42. | :51:47. | |
looking at a long-term strategy for London's transport infrastrtcture. | :51:48. | :51:52. | |
It is absolutely right to do so it is their job. But there is ` real | :51:53. | :51:55. | |
fear that has been raised bx many of my honourable friend as well as by | :51:56. | :51:59. | |
trade unionist and London rdsidence, the elements of this bill would lead | :52:00. | :52:04. | |
to not a long-term investment strategy, but a profiteering in the | :52:05. | :52:06. | |
short term on property developments. An outcome whhch is | :52:07. | :52:13. | |
totally unacceptable. So as a number of my honourable friend havd | :52:14. | :52:15. | |
indicated we do not feel thd way that powers are divided in these | :52:16. | :52:21. | |
bill have been done adequatdly. We are not sure that local councils and | :52:22. | :52:23. | |
communities will be properlx protected. I think we can organise | :52:24. | :52:28. | |
that this bill has been on something of a see through Parliament over the | :52:29. | :52:33. | |
years, but we are not persu`ded that the proposals in Clause fivd should | :52:34. | :52:36. | |
ever make it as a reference for the good mayor to pick up. Did `ny bad | :52:37. | :52:42. | |
feeling that has been gener`ted over the bill for years, it is now time | :52:43. | :52:46. | |
for stress were for London to reflect, go back to the drawing | :52:47. | :52:48. | |
board and bring forward new legislation in this section... And | :52:49. | :52:55. | |
genuinely allow transport for London to find way to utilise our dthics in | :52:56. | :53:01. | |
ways which are consistent whth the wider long-term public Europe. - | :53:02. | :53:04. | |
public view. The question is that the qudstion be | :53:05. | :53:22. | |
now put. As many of the opinions they Dry Sy! Of other opinions they | :53:23. | :53:43. | |
know. No! Clear the lobby! | :53:44. | :53:49. |