24/11/2015 House of Commons


24/11/2015

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Order, order. Questions to the Secretary of State for Foreign and

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Commonwealth Affairs Mr Fabian Hamilton. Question one, Mr Speaker.

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During last month's state visit my right honourable friend the Prime

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Minister and the president discussed the importance of issues on which we

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disagree, including human rights. I also set out the government's

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position on Tibet, including our human rights concerns in a

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Parliamentary debate secured by the honourable gentleman in June. I

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thank the Minister for that answer. The Minister will be aware that the

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UN committee against torture met last week in Geneva to review

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China's record and expressed serious concerns over its continued use of

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torture to extract confessions from prisoners. In its response, the

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Chinese delegation denied all allegations of endemic, systemic am

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a systematic acts of torture. China also claims to hold no political

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prisoners at all. Bilby Minister or the Foreign Secretary ensure that

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the routine use of torture in jails is raised with China at the next UN

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human rights Council? In Tibet or anywhere else, we would raise these

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matters. May I congratulate the honourable gentleman in keeping

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Tibet at the forefront of this House's deliberations. We had to

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debate recently. I should say that during the recent state visit, which

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was a huge success, the president acknowledged the importance of

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improving human rights protection and said China was ready for

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increased cooperation on this issue with the UK. The UK is one of the

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few countries in the world to have an annual human rights dialogue with

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China, and that is an important architecture within which to press

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the Chinese, and to raise these matters. We shall continue to do so.

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Mr Speaker, the Minister will recall in an exchange on October 22 he

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confirmed that China is ready to cooperate with the UK and other

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countries in the area of human rights. On the subject of Tibet, but

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also the persecution of practitioners, the alleged

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harvesting of organs, were those matters discussed with the Chinese

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president when he visited the UK? Well, the honourable gentleman

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credit me with almost total recall, but I will say that our position has

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been consistent on this matter. My right honourable friend on these

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issues, did raise these matters with the state councillor during the

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strategic dialogue with China in Beijing in August. We have also

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raised specific concerns over reports of organ harvesting on

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numerous occasions, including in answer to a written question on July

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the 15th. Catherine West. Could the Minister please tell the House what

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discussions have taken place to promote the importance of the

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freedom of religious expression in Tibet, and in particular amongst the

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weaker people? I would say to the honourable lady, these are issues

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which we raise consistently with the Chinese within the framework of the

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UK Chinese human rights dialogue. We publish the report which is updated

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every six months. The recent comments about the state visit, that

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the ratio with China is now based purely on one of commerce, this is

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wrong. This is not a winery relationship. So as we get closer to

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the Chinese we are seen as a good partner to China, and in terms of

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inward investment and trade with both countries, so we can discuss

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these things with him in a more mature way than many other countries

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can, it boils down to whether or not you believe in megaphone diplomacy

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by getting alongside the people you are trying to talk to and pointing

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out that the way to do things is the way that we do things. Question two.

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The UK is actively supporting UN efforts led by the Secretary

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General's new special representative to reach a lasting political

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agreement in Libya. We are also helping Tunisia and other North

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African countries to develop their economies, as well as strengthening

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their CTK abilities. I will be visiting Tunisia shortly to assess

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the effectiveness of UK medical and strategic cooperation and I will

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meet with the representative later this week. With the secretary of

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state agrees that it is in our interests that those countries at

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risk of extremist infiltration receives support controlling their

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borders? Yes, I would agree with that. What we have recognised since

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the attacks in Tunisia is that we need to focus more attention on

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those countries that are one step away from the chaos that is going on

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in Libya, countries that are making a success of things might but which

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still have some fun abilities, and which are being targeted by the

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extremists. We need to help them to build resilience against extremism.

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The Minister will know that Tunisia's economy has been badly hit

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to the collapse of its tourist industry. What steps is he taking to

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help other countries reach stability, particularly those in the

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Gulf States? We need to work with the Tunisians to improve security so

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that the tourist trade can resume as soon as is practical. The EU is also

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looking at relaxation of olive oil quotas to allow Tunisia greater

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access to the European market for olive oil, a product which it has

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plenty, if it is able to export it. My honourable friend, the

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Parliamentary undersecretary, visited the country a few weeks ago

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and discussed a 49 .1 with the Tunisians around support for the

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economy, and we are with the French seeking to act as the cheerleaders

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for support for the Tunisian economy within the EU. With the Foreign

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Secretary agree with me that we should also take this opportunity to

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encourage organisations such as the foundation for democracy, and a

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range of other organisations and institutions within our Western

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allies, United States, France and Germany, to name but three? The work

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they can do to ensure that we have political stability and democracy to

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other North African countries. Yes, I agree with my honourable friend,

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and of course Tunisia is ahead of the game, as it were. One of the

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success stories of the 2011 Arab Spring with a functioning

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constitution, democratic elections, but all of it challenged by the

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desire of the extremists to target success stories like that. We must

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stand with them. Mr Speaker, I am sure the Foreign Secretary will join

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us in expressing outrage at the terrorist atrocity in Mali in which

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22 were slaughtered, citizens of China, Mali, Belgium, amongst

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others, and we now see affiliated organisations operating across the

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wider area, could he say what is happening across the Sahara to

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tackle terrorism? We are working with a wide range of countries,

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including crucially Nigeria, because this is a pincer movement coming

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across the Sahara, so we are working with the full range of countries.

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But I would say that if we are going to stop this spread of terrorism, we

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have two tackle it at its heart, and its heart is in Raqqa in Syria. The

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security situation in the Sinai is a threat to Egypt, other countries in

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North Africa, as well as the coalition against Isil, as we saw

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with the recent terrorist attack. What is the Foreign Secretary's

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assessment of the security situation and its impact in Sinai? The

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security situation in Sinai is serious. The Egyptian army is

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engaged in combat with terrorist groups across Sinai, and in fact on

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the Foreign Office's travel advice recommends against all travel to

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Sinai, except the area around Sharm el-Sheikh which is itself still

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considered safe for travel, although travel through the airport is

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advised against. We seek to work with the Egyptian authorities to

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deal with the terrorist challenge that they are facing in Sinai. Does

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the Foreign Secretary believe that further air strikes alone will move

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us towards political stability in the wider region? Perhaps he could

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take this opportunity to address the efficacy of military intervention in

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Syria, and how it would contribute to a wider initiative to end civil

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war and does he have a plan for securing the peace, a plan which

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should include measures to close down all sources of finance and new

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recruits to the terrorist cult, including a government inquiry into

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their financing question mark why is this government attempted to make a

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case for war while Felling to address the need for a long-term

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competency of peace plan? I think the short answer is that air

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strikes alone will not alone destroy Daesh. But they have to be a part of

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the overall solution. In respect of our other specific enquiries, if she

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will wait until Thursday, she can look forward to hearing from the

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Prime Minister himself into how this fits into our wider strategy. I wait

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in anticipation for Thursday's statement. I am also grateful for

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the use of Daesh and all the other parties will follow suit. The US are

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bombing Daesh. France are also targeting rebels. Turkey are bombing

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Daesh and are bombing Kurdish forces in the North. If military action

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forces Daesh give up Sony and Iraq, in the coming weeks and months,

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which forced us the foreign secretary expected take its place on

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the ground? Again, the short answer is the honourable lady is correctly

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identifying the situation is complex. As the Prime Minister

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himself has said, we have to resolve these two things in parallel. We

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have to get a political solution to the Civil War in Syria so we can get

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everybody dealing with the problem of Daesh instead of fighting each

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other. That is what our comprehensive strategy will seek to

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achieve. I discuss progress on central registers of the central

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Cayman Islands and brand-new dog yesterday. -- berm you does. Paul

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Moynihan. The Prime Minister wrote to the overseas territories. It is

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clear that the Prime Minister wants the overseas territories to have

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public registers of ownership. Can he ensure that overseas territories

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adopt public registers or at the very least ensure access for the

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public. I think the honourable gentleman should give the overseas

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territories where credit is due. Progress has been made to central

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registers full working on security forces and police forces access to

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that register. But longer term, he is entirely right. The public access

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to that information is the direction we need to go and will have to go

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alternately. But the Overseas Territory 's are making progress.

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Can my right honourable friend let us know what progress we have made

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on tax evasion? This is a clear area where progress has already been

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made. The territories have fulfilled their commitments are automatic tax

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exchange and this was achieved in working in partnership with them.

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Number four, Sir. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I would like to group this

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with question 15. One of the five principal strands of Isil strategy

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is stabilisation support. The UK has spent in the forefront in providing

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humanitarian support with ?1 billion committed to supporting host

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countries. I am grateful to my honourable friend for that answer.

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Will the Minister while carrying on this important work will work flat

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out to build a robust and energised consensus against Isil among the

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other countries in the Middle East? Mr Speaker, he is right. We must be

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energised. The government is committed to working with the now 65

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strong counter Isil coalition. On our 5-point strategy. Cutting off

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Daesh's funding scream. Providing humanitarian stabilisation support I

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have mentioned already. -- stream. Does my right honourable friend

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agreed that we must do all we can to support those living in refugee

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camps. And to ensure that they can return to their homes and rebuild

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their lives and safety and security? We have done a lot to do just that,

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to allow people to stay in the region, to help the vulnerable who

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need to be taken away from the region and supported. Which is why

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we are taking 20,000 refugees here in the UK. They are not allowed to

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be working illegally. What is the government doing to help countries

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like Jordan economic lace of that can change and that refugees can't

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work legally? That is a valid point. A bit of tension locally with people

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in the camp, willing to be paid less but wanting to work. We're working

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programmes and United Nations, so programmes and United Nations, so

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that they can feel that they can keep skills up. So when the guns

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finally fall silent in Syria, we need those skills to be transferred

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back into the country. When I visited the refugee camp, I could

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see first-hand the amount of aid that the UK government is giving to

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help the situation of the ground in Syria, as well as in Lebanon in

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Turkey and well swear. The UK is the second highest honour to those

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countries. Can the Minister update us as to what progress he has made

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in getting other neighbouring countries and other partners to make

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their proper contribution to helping humanitarian crisis in the region?

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Firstly, I am grateful for his support. Sometimes this number of

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20,000 refugees that we are taking in the UK is taken out of context,

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in comparison with the work we are doing to support those, such as

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those in the Zaatari count. We are providing support to other countries

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but we are also encouraging the neighbours. That is why we are

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hosting a conference here in February along with Kuwait to

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encourage other countries to provide a conference here in February along

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with Kuwait to encourage other countries to provide donations so we

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can be ready for post-conflict reconstruction balls in Iraq and in

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Syria. -- both ends. I discussed the situation in Syria to recent of the

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support Syria support group. The Prime Minister discussed Syria with

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President Putin at the margins of the G20 summit last week. When I saw

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represents the most immediate threat to our national security, we should

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be targeting its headquarters in Syria instead of leaving military

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action there to other countries? I think, Mr Speaker, my honourable

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friend knows my views and reviews of the Prime Minister very well. We do

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believe it is morally unacceptable to outsource an action which is

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essential to the defence of the United Kingdom and UK citizens

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around the world to others. That is why we will be seeking to build a

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consensus in this House for taking military action to Daesh and Raqqa.

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Regarding the situation in Syria, has the Foreign Secretary 's seen

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the letter into the's Times paper were nearly 200 Islamic scholars

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have denounced the strongest possible terms, ISAs terror. That is

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the sort of propaganda we should use and the foreign office should use in

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every way in all parts of the world. Shouldn't we make it perfectly

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clear, as they have done, that the atrocities in Paris have nothing to

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do with the wicked West. We went to war over Kosovo in order to protect

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Muslims and we were right to do so. -- Isis. Our position is a moral

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position. We are defending the right of people, Christians, years the

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Dees, Jews and Muslims to practice their religion freely against

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tyranny that imposes its view by beheadings, by rates, by mass

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deportations. And we must end this terror. He is right, that are vital

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to in our armoury is the very substantial body of thoughtful,

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moderate Islamic scholarship around the world. And we, when I say we,

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all nations of goodwill, this should be essentially led by the Muslim

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countries of the world. We need to ensure that that view prevails. We

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need to help the Muslims of the world reclaim their religion from

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the extremists. Is my honourable friend aware of the appalling news

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this morning that a Russian bomber has been shot down by a Nato

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country, Turkey. Is this not a potentially dangerous situation

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given that nothing like that happened during the whole of the

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Cold War. If we are going to get a solution in the north, we need to

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look at building a moderate Sunni regime. That may go back, we may

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have to go back to read drying the boundaries. Mr Speaker, I review and

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the strong view of all of our partners and allies is that we need

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to preserve the territorial integrity of Syria. If we start

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opening up boundaries in the region, I can promise my honourable friend

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we will prolong the agony. As far as the reports coming in this morning

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of a potential Russian air force jet shot down near the Turkish border,

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we are seeking further details urgently bores and gong Kok --

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Moscow and Ankara. This is potentially a serious incident. But

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it will not be unwise to comment further until we have the facts.

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Following their shockingly brutal attacks in Paris, no one doubts that

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we have to defeat Daesh in both Iraq and in Syria. This must be linked to

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the urgent need for the peace line to end the Civil War in Syria. Can

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he tell the House when he expects a decision to be reached on which

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opposition groups will take part in the talks due to start on the 1st of

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January? What is as current assessment of the chances of

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securing a ceasefire as part of these discussions about the

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formation of a transitional government? As the right -- right

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honourable gentleman has said, it is the heart of the group s' work. They

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are tasked with the drawing up a list, and agreed list, of opposition

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participants. I hope that when the team meets next, and we expect that

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to beat in the second week of December, that we will be able to

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approve a list at that point. It is right that I should emphasise that

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there are still some differences among the international support

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group. The Russians and Iranians do not take the same view of who is an

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acceptable interlocutor as are other partners do. I thank the Foreign

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Secretary for that reply. The unanimous agreement of UNC to the

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Council resolution to 249 last Friday was a significant moment in

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the fight against Daesh because the world community has come together to

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fight this evil, using in the words of the resolution, all necessary

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measures. Can the right honourable gentleman give us an idea of how

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macro three's position in Syria -- Daesh's is two events around the

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world? As the Prime Minister has said on many occasions, there is no

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doubt that the head of this multi-tentacled monster is in Raqqa,

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in Syria. Its logistics, is controlling brain, its strategic

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Communications, which are extremely effective, are all run from that

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headquarters. We will not destroy it by cutting off its limbs, we can

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only destroy it by going for the heart. It is right that I should say

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that some of the activity conducted around the world in the name of Isil

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is directed, clearly directed, from Raqqa. In other cases, it is

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inspired by Isil propaganda, but not directly controlled from Raqqa. So

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it is a mixture. Our immediate priority is to ensure that it passes

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into law. The government is also committed to supporting efforts to

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maximise registration and the electoral commission plans a

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campaign in the run-up to the campaign in the run-up to the

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referendum itself. Given that the unelected House of Lords are now

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calling for voting franchise to be extended to 16 and 17-year-olds. And

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given the change in public attitudes, could the government look

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again and legislate the franchise? This House, the elected House has

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voted on three occasions in recent months against lowering the voting

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age to 16 for this referendum. The government will propose to overturn

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this latest amendment from the Lords. I have to say it is a bit

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rich for him and his party to carp about the franchise when they voted

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against having a referendum at all. Will he sure that be sufficient time

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to have both arguments before having the referendum itself on the EU? I

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can assure my honourable friend that there will be ample time for those

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arguments to be aired, both in this House and outside. Can I pressed the

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minister a little bit further on this issue of 16 and 17-year-old.

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The other house passed their amendment by a big majority on the

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18th of November on this. There are rumours of disagreements within the

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government and within the Cabinet on how to respond. The Prime

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Minister... The Prime Minister has left the door open so far to change

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in the West is that he has been asked previously about this. We know

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that 16 and 17-year-olds are capable of understanding the issues. We know

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that they are interested and want to take part, so why won't the Minister

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agree to the amendment and give 16 and 17-year-olds a proper say in the

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future of our country? There are honourable members in various parts

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of the House who champion the cause of reducing the voting age to 16,

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but I would say to the right honourable gentleman that the right

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time to debate that issue is during legislation where such a change

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would apply to the franchise for all elections and referendums, and not

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just as a one-off tacked onto a bill for a particular referendum. Carolyn

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Harris. Question seven, Mr Speaker. I discussed the current migration

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rises with my EU counterparts on a regular basis, for example be

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foreign affairs Council last Monday, in Brussels, and when I met with a

:27:37.:27:41.

group of EU countries in Prague the previous Friday. All of them agree

:27:42.:27:47.

on the importance of a competence of approach to tackling the underlying

:27:48.:27:53.

causes of regular migration, and the UK is playing a leading role in

:27:54.:27:59.

delivering this approach. Maybe the minister could share with us what

:28:00.:28:03.

progress is being made with our European colleagues to create simple

:28:04.:28:08.

and safe routes for refugees to be united with their families who have

:28:09.:28:15.

already found Santry in Britain? -- sanctuary. The refugees we are

:28:16.:28:20.

mainly discussing in terms of the question she asked about discussions

:28:21.:28:23.

with my EU colleagues are those who are arriving within the Schengen

:28:24.:28:29.

area. Clearly, those people, since people are -- Britain is not in that

:28:30.:28:38.

area, would not be able to access the UK in the normal course of

:28:39.:28:39.

events, so their future will be within the Schengen area, unless at

:28:40.:28:43.

some point they pertain EU citizenship. Will my right

:28:44.:28:49.

honourable friend explain what's more action can be taken to stop

:28:50.:28:56.

resident Assad's murder of his own people, which is contributing to the

:28:57.:28:59.

refugee crisis that we are seeing at the moment? Mr Speaker, she is

:29:00.:29:14.

absolutely right. The honourable lady is absolutely right. Clearly

:29:15.:29:19.

there is agreement across the European Union that we need to

:29:20.:29:22.

address these issues upstream, and one of the most pressing challenges

:29:23.:29:27.

is the Civil War in Syria. As I have already said once this afternoon,

:29:28.:29:31.

the Prime Minister will set out our preference of approach to that

:29:32.:29:35.

problem, military, political and two and, on Thursday. As part of those

:29:36.:29:41.

discussions with the European Council, what part of those

:29:42.:29:47.

discussions are centred on the real genocide that is happening,

:29:48.:29:52.

including in UN HCI refugee camps in Lebanon, Jordan, the Kurdish

:29:53.:29:56.

autonomous region, I radicalised Islamist linked to Daesh, who are

:29:57.:30:02.

killing Christians in those camps and driving them out of them? I

:30:03.:30:08.

would have to tell the honourable gentleman candidly that that has not

:30:09.:30:11.

been the focus of discussion in foreign affairs Council about the

:30:12.:30:16.

migration crisis, but I am aware of concerns about what is going on in

:30:17.:30:20.

the camp, and of course the UK's approach is to invest heavily in

:30:21.:30:25.

providing safe and appropriate facilities for refugees in the

:30:26.:30:29.

region so that they can return to Syria in due course. We will

:30:30.:30:34.

continue to advocate that approach and to encourage our EU partners to

:30:35.:30:40.

put more money into that effort. Question eight, Mr Speaker. With

:30:41.:30:46.

permission, Mr Speaker, I shall answer this bastion together with

:30:47.:30:48.

the question nine. My right honourable friend the Minister has

:30:49.:30:53.

had deductive rounds of talks with every European leader, and with the

:30:54.:30:58.

president of the European Council, the European Parliament and the

:30:59.:31:00.

European Commission. The Foreign Secretary, Chancellor and I, also

:31:01.:31:04.

maintain regular contact with our counterparts right across Europe.

:31:05.:31:11.

Can the Minister go further and confirmed that the government will

:31:12.:31:16.

not seek to tear up hard one employment rights as part of this

:31:17.:31:22.

negotiation with the EU? We believe that the flexibility of the opt out

:31:23.:31:25.

that we have from the 48 hour week under the working time direct live

:31:26.:31:30.

is one that is very important to keeping employment in this country

:31:31.:31:34.

high, compared with the tragic levels of unemployment in many other

:31:35.:31:41.

European nations. We shall certainly ensure we will keep this. Will the

:31:42.:31:46.

Minister and accept that there will be no treaty changes secured before

:31:47.:31:51.

the referendum? I set out the position on that in the statement

:31:52.:31:56.

and subsequent answers that I gave a week ago. What he -- is very

:31:57.:32:04.

important is that we secure a package of changes which will be

:32:05.:32:09.

seen by all as irreversible and as legally binding. The government used

:32:10.:32:14.

to complain about Tony Blair giving up the UK rebate back to the

:32:15.:32:20.

European Union, so why did the Prime Minister not ask for a reduction in

:32:21.:32:24.

our membership fee to the EU as part of his letter? Is it that the

:32:25.:32:29.

government is now happy that we gave up the rebate, or is it that the

:32:30.:32:33.

primary step has only asked for the things that he has already had

:32:34.:32:37.

agreed by the EU so he can say the negotiations were a success, on the

:32:38.:32:40.

basis that if you ask for nothing, when you get nothing it will be a

:32:41.:32:54.

success? Mr Speaker, my honourable friend would be right to applaud the

:32:55.:32:59.

Prime Minister's success in getting the first ever reduction in the EU

:33:00.:33:03.

Sakho multi annual budget. I can assure him that what lies ahead will

:33:04.:33:07.

be negotiations that will be tough, that will at times be difficult,

:33:08.:33:12.

which I am confident will end with a better set of relationships between

:33:13.:33:19.

this country and the EU. Surely is it not the case that these very

:33:20.:33:24.

modest proposals which were set out in that letter were the only ones

:33:25.:33:27.

which the government believed that the rest of the EU would agree to,

:33:28.:33:35.

which is why an end to free movement, which is something so many

:33:36.:33:38.

people want to see, is not even going to be discussed? Well we have

:33:39.:33:45.

made it clear that we want to see the freedom of movement for workers

:33:46.:33:53.

be just that, and not a freedom of movement to elect the best welfare

:33:54.:33:56.

system anywhere in Europe. I would say to my honourable friend that we

:33:57.:34:02.

must also take account in our approach to this subject the fact

:34:03.:34:05.

that there are hundreds of thousands of British citizens who themselves

:34:06.:34:08.

are able to work, study and live elsewhere in Europe. Further to the

:34:09.:34:16.

previous question, will the issue of freedom of movement, the principle,

:34:17.:34:19.

not the detail, the principle of freedom of movement, will it be

:34:20.:34:26.

discussed or not? I has to ask the honourable gentleman to go and read

:34:27.:34:29.

again the letter that the Prime Minister sent last week because that

:34:30.:34:35.

makes clear that, while we accept the principle of a freedom of

:34:36.:34:39.

movement for workers, we want to secure changes which ensure that we

:34:40.:34:46.

can reduce the core factors which element of our welfare system exert

:34:47.:34:50.

in adding to migration into this country. Following what my

:34:51.:34:58.

honourable friend said, if the bar is so hah and -- so high and so

:34:59.:35:05.

tough, what is the Prime Minister really going to fight for? What is

:35:06.:35:11.

holding him back? Come on, the bar is so low, this negotiation is just

:35:12.:35:17.

a joke. I perhaps look forward to the day when my honourable friend is

:35:18.:35:23.

able to join me at ministerial meetings in Europe when he can

:35:24.:35:27.

actually see that the task of negotiating is not quite as easy as

:35:28.:35:33.

he has made out in his question. I can't give a running commentary on

:35:34.:35:37.

ongoing negotiations, but I remind my honourable friend that the

:35:38.:35:43.

president commented that the British are task and they would be "really

:35:44.:35:49.

difficult to find an agreement". That indicates we have a real

:35:50.:35:53.

negotiation in front of us. Mr Martin day. Question ten. Thank you,

:35:54.:36:05.

Mr Speaker. Britain has made its support for the president in Yemen

:36:06.:36:08.

clear in deed, and recognised his legitimate request for military

:36:09.:36:18.

assistance which has compounded and Jackie -- a dire humanitarian

:36:19.:36:24.

situation. The Foreign Secretary and I received assurances of compliance.

:36:25.:36:33.

I wonder if he can give a timeline for the proper investigations that

:36:34.:36:37.

were pledged earlier this month into any breaches of humanitarian law in

:36:38.:36:44.

Yemen? Mr Speaker, these investigations must be concluded,

:36:45.:36:47.

they must be looked into, and they will be ongoing. It is a very

:36:48.:36:51.

difficult situation on the ground, unable to have access in many cases

:36:52.:36:55.

to verify what has happened. Progress is being made by the envoy

:36:56.:37:01.

in bringing the parties together in Geneva very shortly, and that is

:37:02.:37:04.

where we need to focus on action getting a ceasefire in place. The

:37:05.:37:10.

humanitarian consequences of the conflict in Yemen after hunt

:37:11.:37:13.

clay-macro heart-rending. Would my honourable friend agree that peace

:37:14.:37:18.

talks leading to a political settlement would be the best way to

:37:19.:37:23.

bring an end to the humanitarian suffering and any breaches of

:37:24.:37:26.

international law in this country? My honourable friend is right. We

:37:27.:37:30.

have discussed some important challenges in the Middle East, but

:37:31.:37:34.

the scale of the situation in Yemen is dire. 20 million people are

:37:35.:37:42.

facing starvation. The lack of water and support that they need. There is

:37:43.:37:45.

no government there, and until we have a ceasefire, the port will not

:37:46.:37:51.

be able to open up to allow the humanitarian support to enter the

:37:52.:37:57.

country. Human rights watch has documented 27 air strikes since

:37:58.:38:00.

March 26 that appear to violate the laws of war in Yemen. On November

:38:01.:38:06.

the 11th, the Foreign Secretary said he supported proper investigations

:38:07.:38:10.

into human rights violations from all sides in the Yemen conflict. Can

:38:11.:38:14.

the Minister explain why the United Kingdom failed to support the Dutch

:38:15.:38:20.

at the last meeting of the UN human rights Council when they call for a

:38:21.:38:23.

credible investigation into these violations? Mr Speaker, this is an

:38:24.:38:34.

important point. I met NGO's and had a band table discussion on this

:38:35.:38:38.

policy. There was an international discussion on this matter. We have

:38:39.:38:44.

been working on encouraging Saudi Arabia and other parties involved in

:38:45.:38:49.

this coalition. There are ten other countries as well. Those cases need

:38:50.:38:54.

to be looked into efficiently and properly by the country itself.

:38:55.:39:03.

Question 11. Since operations by the global coalition began last year, I

:39:04.:39:07.

still has lost more than 30% of the territory it once controlled in

:39:08.:39:12.

Iraq. Most recently, Kurdish forces retook Singel, and slowly but surely

:39:13.:39:21.

Isil is being pushed back, and I am confident that it will be driven out

:39:22.:39:31.

of Iraq in time. As Chair of the all-party group on Islamic phobia, I

:39:32.:39:35.

would like them be formally termed as Daesh. But does my honourable

:39:36.:39:39.

friend agree that cutting supply lines with Syria will hasten its

:39:40.:39:44.

defeat and bring about the restoration of the territory? The

:39:45.:39:58.

retaking of Sinjar is important, but we need to go to the heart and head

:39:59.:40:02.

of the beast in Iraq. Does he regard Turkey as a reliable

:40:03.:40:08.

ally in the battle against Isil, when you consider that not only

:40:09.:40:14.

today they have shot down a Russian jet, who are also trying to fight

:40:15.:40:20.

Isil, they are buying oil from Isil in order to prop them up, they are

:40:21.:40:24.

bombing the Kurds, who are also fighting Isil. This Syrian

:40:25.:40:30.

engagement is an almighty guess. -- mess.

:40:31.:40:43.

Turkey holds the key to a number of questions. And also the migration

:40:44.:40:56.

challenge for Europe. It will be an important partner for this country

:40:57.:41:02.

and the European Union. For, sir. Following my recent discussions in

:41:03.:41:06.

Vienna, an international Syria support group will meet on a regular

:41:07.:41:11.

basis in parallel with Syrian lead discussions with the opposition and

:41:12.:41:16.

the facilitated by the UN to take forward a transition process for

:41:17.:41:21.

that country. The UK will work with our international partners to mean

:41:22.:41:25.

men took -- momentum in this important endeavour. Is it not

:41:26.:41:30.

clearer than ever that Isil pose a threat to our national security. Is

:41:31.:41:40.

it not incumbent upon us in this House to support our allies and that

:41:41.:41:46.

the failure to do so would call complete the world and on their

:41:47.:41:51.

part? It is true that we have military capabilities, the precision

:41:52.:41:55.

weapons available on Tornado aircraft, which would make a

:41:56.:41:58.

difference to the military battle on the ground in Syria. But it is

:41:59.:42:04.

incumbent upon us and we have accepted this challenge to make the

:42:05.:42:07.

case is not just for military intervention to set that case in a

:42:08.:42:11.

broader context of a comprehensive approach to the Syria problem. The

:42:12.:42:18.

Prime Minister has taken upon him himself the responsibility of

:42:19.:42:20.

delivering his comprehensive strategy to the House. It is ever

:42:21.:42:25.

more apparent that unless we deal with the biggest recruitment drive

:42:26.:42:35.

for Daesh by the Assad regime, we will not tackle the cancer that is

:42:36.:42:41.

Daesh. Can he tell us how he will prioritise UK engagement to get a

:42:42.:42:47.

ceasefire and a complex compounds of plan question worked through the

:42:48.:42:51.

international support group for Syria that we have set up. She is

:42:52.:42:56.

right. We will not get a ceasefire, we will not get the opposition

:42:57.:43:02.

groups working with the rump of regime forces against Daesh unless

:43:03.:43:06.

and until they can be clear that Assad is going at a certain point, a

:43:07.:43:11.

clear and defined point, in the transition process. At the moment we

:43:12.:43:18.

do not have agreement across the ISS GE about that point. But that is

:43:19.:43:23.

where we have to go and that is the fundamental thrust of all

:43:24.:43:26.

discussions, around tried to get agreement on a route for an exit by

:43:27.:43:31.

Assad, so that the rest of the pieces of this chicks can follow in

:43:32.:43:39.

to place. -- jigsaw. Given Britain's economic ties with Gulf

:43:40.:43:42.

nations and other states in the Middle East, both I and the Foreign

:43:43.:43:46.

Secretary meet our counterparts to discuss a range of issues including

:43:47.:43:51.

security. In recent weeks, the UK hosted the Egyptian president and I

:43:52.:44:00.

have returned from all man and will be heading to Kuwait, looking at the

:44:01.:44:10.

whip on duty. We face an epidemic of Jihadist violence. Can my honourable

:44:11.:44:14.

friend assure the House that it is close dialogue with our golf friends

:44:15.:44:18.

and partners that they will press on them that funding by some of them of

:44:19.:44:22.

these dangerous organisations must stop?

:44:23.:44:27.

My right honourable friend is right. This is one of the key trait of the

:44:28.:44:35.

strategy is to prevent funding taking place. It is important all

:44:36.:44:39.

countries across the Middle East work hard to prevent this from

:44:40.:44:45.

happening. With the Minister raise in his discussions the current

:44:46.:44:50.

terrorist attacks on Israeli civilians. With 108 Israelis killed

:44:51.:44:55.

or injured by shootings or stabbings in the street in recent weeks and

:44:56.:44:59.

will he condemned the incitement that goes with that, including the

:45:00.:45:07.

statement from the Palestinian... That Jewish body parts should be put

:45:08.:45:20.

out in pieces to remove the thought from their heads. She races are very

:45:21.:45:25.

serious point. In the past few weeks we have seen a reduction in the

:45:26.:45:28.

violence that is taking place in the West Bank. Since the start of this

:45:29.:45:34.

current scale of violence, we have spoken regularly with all sides with

:45:35.:45:38.

the Israeli government and the Palestinian Authority, we need to DS

:45:39.:45:41.

intentions and get all parties back to the table. Number 14, Mr Speaker.

:45:42.:45:50.

I saw for myself in July the desperate plight of the community.

:45:51.:46:02.

Relieving that plight remains a priority. We will press the incoming

:46:03.:46:06.

government to do so. I thank the Minister for his answer. Elections

:46:07.:46:40.

in Burma were a victory for the people of Burma, not withstanding

:46:41.:46:44.

the fact that the Rohingya registered franchise from that

:46:45.:46:50.

election. I could only just conclude by concurring what press --

:46:51.:46:55.

President Obama said about the Rohingya. He hopes they will be

:46:56.:47:00.

treated fairly and justly in their own country and we believe as he

:47:01.:47:04.

does, they are deserving of the world's protection and support. The

:47:05.:47:08.

incoming government will have a lot on its plate. It will have to expect

:47:09.:47:13.

expectation. We stand ready to help them do that. But the... I have

:47:14.:47:32.

written to them. I am grateful to the Minister for what he said. My

:47:33.:47:37.

priorities remain the struggle against violence in all its forms

:47:38.:47:43.

including a response to the recent despicable attacks in Paris and the

:47:44.:47:48.

Middle East. The containment of Russian actions that threaten the

:47:49.:47:51.

international rules -based system and the renegotiation of Britain's

:47:52.:47:54.

relationship with the European Union. Decisions taken in the

:47:55.:47:59.

strategic defence and offence review will underpin the diplomacy that

:48:00.:48:03.

allows us to make effective progress in all of those areas. Backing a

:48:04.:48:08.

round out its off power with hard power. Tomorrow, Mr Speaker, I will

:48:09.:48:13.

travel to Malta for the Commonwealth heads of government meeting and for

:48:14.:48:16.

the state visit of her Majesty the Queen. Given the changes to the

:48:17.:48:23.

Ministerial Code, is at his view that ministers and the civil and

:48:24.:48:28.

diplomatic services remain bound by the UK boss Mac international treaty

:48:29.:48:34.

obligations? I think the answer to that, Mr Speaker, is yes. How does

:48:35.:48:44.

the strategic defence spending review provide the foreign office

:48:45.:48:50.

with new tools to deal with the situation in Syria, particularly in

:48:51.:48:55.

context of a wider strategy and coordination? Mr Speaker, I have

:48:56.:49:01.

said longer for the publication of the report to the colleagues across

:49:02.:49:06.

government, that the most important reinforcement that we could have

:49:07.:49:10.

diplomacy would be clear statements about this country's determination

:49:11.:49:20.

to back its Armed Forces. We have turned that into specific programmes

:49:21.:49:24.

and plans that will deliver a romp forces the capability that we need

:49:25.:49:28.

to backers of parks with hard power. I have spend a lot of time this

:49:29.:49:35.

weekend hearing about my constituent members about their views on Syria.

:49:36.:49:42.

They do want to know what practical difference Britain can make, how

:49:43.:49:46.

civilians will be protected and whether there is a comprehensive

:49:47.:49:49.

plan to rebuild Syria after was whether proper government in place

:49:50.:49:54.

of Assad to as used chemical weapons on his people? I am glad to hear he

:49:55.:49:58.

is taking the pulse of his constituents. On the last point, as

:49:59.:50:03.

I've said before, the Prime Minister will set out a comprehensive

:50:04.:50:07.

strategy. It is not just about military intervention, it is about

:50:08.:50:10.

how we use that military intervention achieve the political

:50:11.:50:16.

set -- solution that we need. On the military point, yes, the UK does

:50:17.:50:20.

have capabilities that will make a difference. We have the dual mode

:50:21.:50:25.

Brimstone missile carried an attorney dope aircraft which is a

:50:26.:50:33.

precision weapon, unlike any of the other allies have in the coalition.

:50:34.:50:39.

It will insure minimisation of collateral damage and collateral

:50:40.:50:44.

casualties, and that is one of the reasons our allies as sucking me

:50:45.:50:48.

take part in this campaign. There has been another weekend of deadly

:50:49.:50:52.

terror attacks on Israeli citizens, including a brutal stabbing

:50:53.:50:57.

yesterday. Will he condemn these attacks and does he agree that

:50:58.:51:00.

sanctions incitement to commit terror must end? -- sanctioned. My

:51:01.:51:10.

honourable friend is right. We need to get all parties back to the

:51:11.:51:15.

table. Unfortunately it does seem that the planet seamer misaligned at

:51:16.:51:18.

the moment. We need to reconfigure and make sure that all parties come

:51:19.:51:22.

back and prevent the scale of violence from increasing. What steps

:51:23.:51:29.

does the Foreign Secretary taking to ensure that genuine law-abiding

:51:30.:51:35.

refugees leaving Syria are not locked out of the asylum process as

:51:36.:51:41.

a result of border measures being introduced across the EU after the

:51:42.:51:46.

brutal attacks in Paris? Clearly, it is a matter for each member state of

:51:47.:51:53.

the European Union and other European countries to determine

:51:54.:51:57.

their own border controls. The way forward has to be for asylum seekers

:51:58.:52:03.

to be properly assessed and screamed at the first safe country that they

:52:04.:52:09.

go to and for us to tackle the problem in the camps, in the near

:52:10.:52:13.

East, so that people get some assurance of a decent life and

:52:14.:52:17.

opportunities for education for their children. Rather than

:52:18.:52:22.

hazarding these appalling journeys to Europe. With the Foreign

:52:23.:52:30.

Secretary agree with me that in order that we play a constructive

:52:31.:52:35.

role in dealing with Isis and other instabilities in the region, we need

:52:36.:52:38.

a comprehensive strategy towards the Middle East as a whole, not just

:52:39.:52:44.

Syria? Yes, Mr Speaker, I do agree with that. The government is working

:52:45.:52:51.

up a golf strategy, looking at how the UK will engage with this very

:52:52.:52:56.

important region, important for our security and important for our

:52:57.:52:59.

prosperity as well, over the next 5-10 years. Does the Foreign

:53:00.:53:06.

Secretary agree that defeating Daesh abroad provides security at home? I

:53:07.:53:18.

saw headlines yesterday that cast doubt on that. The result unity in

:53:19.:53:29.

the UK hate Daesh. The Sun newspaper published divisions yesterday when

:53:30.:53:33.

we need unity. It is clear to me that the majority of the Muslim

:53:34.:53:37.

population here in the UK and across the world applaud what is going on

:53:38.:53:41.

and are sickened by the fact that it it is being done ostensibly in the

:53:42.:53:46.

name. They are very clear that their religion does not in any way support

:53:47.:53:50.

or authorise the action is being carried out by Daesh and we should

:53:51.:53:54.

help them to reclaim their religion from the terrorists and the

:53:55.:54:00.

extremists. In improving economic times in the UK and sub-Saharan

:54:01.:54:05.

Africa is important. What are the government's objectives at the

:54:06.:54:12.

summit next week? The honourable gentleman is right. Economic

:54:13.:54:15.

development is central to everything that we do. I head of the global

:54:16.:54:22.

African investment Summit, I will be meeting a collection of presidents,

:54:23.:54:25.

prime ministers and foreign ministers at Lancaster House,

:54:26.:54:30.

looking at economic Dev elements, looking at working with those

:54:31.:54:32.

countries to develop their businesses, alongside Ritter 's

:54:33.:54:37.

business, to grow Africa out of poverty. In the course of questions

:54:38.:54:43.

today, the Foreign Secretary has mentioned the need for compounds of

:54:44.:54:48.

strategy. We have heard before about financial sanctions. Update the

:54:49.:54:52.

House on what conversations he has had with counterparts in the US and

:54:53.:54:59.

EU about stopping the supply of cash and financial services to Daesh? Mr

:55:00.:55:06.

Speaker, she is right to say that it is not just on the battlefield, it

:55:07.:55:09.

is about cutting down on the finances as well. We are looking to

:55:10.:55:12.

freeze accounts, huge amounts of work to be done through the

:55:13.:55:17.

Financial Services Authority is in order to identify the flow of funds

:55:18.:55:21.

coming from large donors, individuals. In addition to that, we

:55:22.:55:26.

are looking at the money streams coming into Daesh itself, as it

:55:27.:55:31.

sells antiquities and oils. It is reflected in the fact that the

:55:32.:55:34.

amount of foreign fighters, the amount they get on a monthly debases

:55:35.:55:39.

has been reduced because funds into Daesh are being reduced. Will he

:55:40.:55:54.

talk about what the UK is doing in Burundi. I am grateful for him to

:55:55.:56:00.

raise the situation in the ruined it. It is important there is a

:56:01.:56:04.

regional solution. I have had discussions with the role London

:56:05.:56:14.

government which is in gauging -- Rwandan government. This is a matter

:56:15.:56:20.

of grave concern and I have had a number of frank and open

:56:21.:56:25.

conversations with the Burundi and Foreign Minister and issues an open

:56:26.:56:30.

letter to him as well as a number of the international community.

:56:31.:56:35.

It is estimated that Russian bombings have killed many people,

:56:36.:56:43.

when the Foreign Minister met with the Foreign Minister and he urged

:56:44.:56:47.

him to refocus those air strikes away from the opposition armies who

:56:48.:56:51.

are fighting President Assad's reign of terror, and towards those

:56:52.:56:55.

terrorists who brought down that Russian airliner? Absolutely right,

:56:56.:56:58.

that is what we have been urging the Russians to do. If they want to

:56:59.:57:02.

fight Isil, we will be happy to work with them. But at the moment, what

:57:03.:57:07.

we have seen is that a significant proportion, the majority in fact, of

:57:08.:57:10.

their air strikes have been directed against the moderate opposition

:57:11.:57:14.

fighting Assad. In fairness, since the Russians acknowledged that it

:57:15.:57:17.

almost certainly was terrorist action that brought down that

:57:18.:57:21.

airliner, they have directed a larger proportion of air strikes

:57:22.:57:26.

against Isil held territories. Good my right honourable friend find

:57:27.:57:29.

any further detail on discussions he has had with the Iraqi government

:57:30.:57:33.

about ensuring measures are taken to promote security and enhanced

:57:34.:57:41.

erupt's liberation of areas. Focus needs to be done on supporting

:57:42.:57:48.

Iraqi, but unfortunately many Sunni Muslims in Iraq believe they are not

:57:49.:57:53.

properly represented in Baghdad, so we are working with the Prime

:57:54.:57:57.

Minister to encourage financial services laws and National Guard

:57:58.:57:59.

laws to go through so that they have a place, and are represented

:58:00.:58:06.

properly in Baghdad. I would like to thank the

:58:07.:58:10.

Parliamentary secretary of state for writing to me about my Yemeni

:58:11.:58:15.

constituent. I read the Home Office device he directed me to on this

:58:16.:58:21.

issue. Does he agree it does not inspire confidence that the Home

:58:22.:58:25.

Office managed to miss translate medicines some frontier, and will he

:58:26.:58:36.

meet with me to discuss this? I am grateful that she raises this matter

:58:37.:58:39.

and I would be delighted to meet with her later to discuss it in more

:58:40.:58:47.

detail. The world's attention is rightly on the Middle East and Syria

:58:48.:58:51.

at the moment, but there is an ongoing situation in Ukraine. Has my

:58:52.:58:56.

right honourable friend made any assessment of the situation in

:58:57.:59:02.

Ukraine? We remain concerned about the situation in Ukraine. I was last

:59:03.:59:06.

there in early October this year, when I met the Prime Minister, the

:59:07.:59:12.

Foreign Minister, and other Ukrainian leaders and

:59:13.:59:16.

parliamentarians. The latest situation is that there has been an

:59:17.:59:19.

upsurge of fighting in certain locations around Donetsk. The key

:59:20.:59:27.

thing now is to ensure that the Minsk process is followed through to

:59:28.:59:31.

the end, and all parts of it are completed. We are right not to be

:59:32.:59:39.

part of Shannon and DIY to call for reform, but doesn't the invoking of

:59:40.:59:43.

the EU defence clause remind us why we have to be part of a reformed EU,

:59:44.:59:51.

as well as part of Nato? I think that what France has done by in

:59:52.:59:55.

vogue in that article in the treaty has been to ask other member

:59:56.:00:01.

states, and crucially not the European institutions under that

:00:02.:00:04.

article, to come to its assistant in all possible ways, as they need to

:00:05.:00:11.

react to the terrorist onslaught on Paris. It is important to bear in

:00:12.:00:17.

mind that that treaty article also makes reference to the need for the

:00:18.:00:22.

EU always to coordinate its work with that of Nato. The Foreign

:00:23.:00:31.

Secretary will be aware that the former primary of Canada Stephen

:00:32.:00:35.

Harper was rebuffed in his support for self-determination of the people

:00:36.:00:39.

of the Falkland islands. Will he take the opportunity when Mr Trudeau

:00:40.:00:42.

visits this week to emphasise how grateful we are for the Canadian

:00:43.:00:47.

support for the Falkland Islands, and will be policy remain the same

:00:48.:00:52.

under his premiership? My honourable friend can be reassured that we

:00:53.:00:58.

expect the same from Mr Trudeau on who is on his way to London to meet

:00:59.:01:02.

with our Prime Minister and Her Majesty before travelling on. We

:01:03.:01:08.

expect the same relationships. It is an ancient and potent ratio between

:01:09.:01:11.

ourselves and Canada. The honourable gentleman will be aware that has

:01:12.:01:16.

been an election in Argentina, and we look forward to working with the

:01:17.:01:23.

new government of Argentina who hopefully will not suffer from the

:01:24.:01:28.

bullying and hostility shown by the former government of Argentina to

:01:29.:01:40.

the people of the Falkland Islands. A point of order. Mr Speaker, last

:01:41.:01:49.

week the Prime Minister in PMQ is told the House, and I quote," we

:01:50.:01:55.

have seen an increase of 3800 in the number of neighbourhood officers

:01:56.:01:59.

over the Parliament, and a 31% cut in crime". If I can be brief, on the

:02:00.:02:06.

3800 figure, in 2012, the government lifted the ring fencing on the

:02:07.:02:10.

neighbourhood policing budget, despite warnings from HMRC that it

:02:11.:02:14.

would be the area most at risk from a cut of 25% in the last Parliament.

:02:15.:02:21.

Crucially, the Home Office figures are, as a consequence of the

:02:22.:02:26.

subsequent beta that arises in of officers on response, as having a

:02:27.:02:32.

neighbourhood function. It is not an increase in neighbourhood policing.

:02:33.:02:36.

In truth, the government's own figures show 17,000 police officers

:02:37.:02:40.

gone, 12,000 from the front line, 4500 PCS owes. On the other issues,

:02:41.:02:49.

on the crime figures, I can do no better than quote from what is a

:02:50.:02:54.

government exercise coordinated by the National fraud coordinator in

:02:55.:02:59.

which he says the results of the next crime survey of England and

:03:00.:03:02.

Wales will show a 40% increase in crime. If I can say this in

:03:03.:03:08.

conclusion, Mr Speaker, I am sure you will agree that on matters like

:03:09.:03:12.

police, crime and national security, it is essential that the

:03:13.:03:16.

deliberations of this House are informed by the facts. Can I ask if

:03:17.:03:21.

the MS has indicated to come to this House and put the record straight?

:03:22.:03:27.

Or do, I am grateful to the honourable gentleman for his

:03:28.:03:29.

attempted point of order, and for giving me advance notice of his

:03:30.:03:34.

intention to raise it. I have not received any indication that the

:03:35.:03:38.

Prime Minister proposes to come to the House to correct the record. It

:03:39.:03:42.

is the responsibility of every honourable and right honourable

:03:43.:03:47.

member to ensure the veracity of what he or she says in the event

:03:48.:03:53.

that any member things that he or she has aired, that member has the

:03:54.:03:59.

responsibility to put the record straight. I know the House will

:04:00.:04:03.

understand that disagreement about statistics is part of the currency

:04:04.:04:08.

of political debate in which the honourable gentleman is a practised

:04:09.:04:16.

and dextrous expert. If there is an opposition day along, I have a hunch

:04:17.:04:21.

we will hear from the honourable gentleman. Meanwhile, he has had a

:04:22.:04:30.

bite of the cherry, and I hope he was satisfied with the taste. Point

:04:31.:04:37.

of order, Graham Allen. The Commissioner for children in England

:04:38.:04:41.

published today a report protecting children from harm which outlines

:04:42.:04:47.

the prevalence of child sex abuse in this country, where only one in

:04:48.:04:51.

eight cases of child sex abuse are reported to the authorities. Would

:04:52.:04:57.

it be in order, Mr Speaker, to ask a minister from the Department for

:04:58.:05:01.

Education to respond urgently to this very important matter about

:05:02.:05:07.

prevalence of child sex abuse, hopefully even before education

:05:08.:05:11.

questions on Monday. I am grateful to the honourable gentleman for that

:05:12.:05:14.

point of order. The question about whether a minister comes to the

:05:15.:05:18.

House to make a statement voluntarily is a matter for the

:05:19.:05:23.

Minister. I was conscious of this matter, which was courteously drawn

:05:24.:05:26.

to my attention by the honourable gentleman. My understanding is that

:05:27.:05:31.

the government has just received the report, and has not yet penned a

:05:32.:05:38.

response. I had a sense that the House would benefit from an exchange

:05:39.:05:44.

on the matter at the point at which the government had determined a

:05:45.:05:48.

response. These matters, as the honourable gentleman knows, are kept

:05:49.:05:52.

under review. It would be open to a minister to come to the House before

:05:53.:05:57.

education questions, or even if not, to do so pretty soon. I guess they

:05:58.:06:01.

the honourable gentleman has his back channels by which to keep in

:06:02.:06:04.

touch with what the government's thinking might be about it, and I

:06:05.:06:08.

feel sure that it will not be long before a very thorough exploration

:06:09.:06:12.

of the issues will take place on the floor of the Chamber.

:06:13.:06:18.

Mr Tom brake. Did you have it in your powers to extend Foreign

:06:19.:06:20.

Commonwealth Office questions because I know there are a number of

:06:21.:06:23.

members here who would like to have raised an attack in Pakistan against

:06:24.:06:28.

the anti-Muslim community, and to hear from ministers what they were

:06:29.:06:33.

going to call in the High Commissioner from Pakistan to

:06:34.:06:36.

challenge him, and to say attacking people on the basis of faith is not

:06:37.:06:40.

acceptable. I am grateful to the honourable gentleman for his point

:06:41.:06:43.

of order. He speaks with all the moral force of a former deputy

:06:44.:06:51.

Leader of the House, no less. I note what he says, or what he enquired

:06:52.:06:55.

about correction to my powers. The short answer is that I do not have

:06:56.:06:58.

power to extend Foreign Office questions, or any other Western Time

:06:59.:07:03.

session, although I find myself sometimes doing so anyway as the

:07:04.:07:07.

Treasury bench was quick to point out more or less good-naturedly. The

:07:08.:07:12.

truth of the matter is, we often overrun a bit because I want to hear

:07:13.:07:16.

backbenchers, and the honourable gentleman has cheekily and

:07:17.:07:20.

inappropriately, but I think on this occasion, forgive agree, made his

:07:21.:07:23.

own point in his own way, even though he did not have a right to do

:07:24.:07:26.

so. If there are no further points of

:07:27.:07:32.

order, I think we come now to the ten minute rule motion. Mr Steve

:07:33.:07:38.

McCabe. Mr Speaker, I beg to move that leave

:07:39.:07:45.

be given for me to bring in a bill for the protection of family homes,

:07:46.:07:48.

enforcement and elliptical development. The parts of my

:07:49.:08:03.

constituency work particular the attractive places, full of family

:08:04.:08:06.

homes and small terraces within a series of quite interlocking

:08:07.:08:14.

tree-lined streets. Nowadays, a walk down a number of these roads reveals

:08:15.:08:19.

a very different scene. One is visually assaulted by a series of to

:08:20.:08:25.

let boards of all shapes and sizes, installed at all angles. The

:08:26.:08:31.

streets, pavements and small front gardens are littered with skips,

:08:32.:08:35.

builders rubble, sand and cement, and there is a constant noise at all

:08:36.:08:41.

hours, including weekends, of additional bedrooms being hammered

:08:42.:08:45.

and bolted onto existing dwellings. Once we could expect to see rows of

:08:46.:08:53.

small family homes, we now witness architectural carbuncles jutting at

:08:54.:08:58.

odd angles, extending into adjacent houses, and covering rear gardens

:08:59.:09:05.

with additional bedrooms variously described as games rooms, sheds and

:09:06.:09:10.

saunas. My local authority seems powerless to arrest this

:09:11.:09:15.

destruction. They say enforcement action is costly, and the guidance

:09:16.:09:22.

from central government is unclear. Enforcement action, as you know, is

:09:23.:09:27.

discretionary, and local authorities are required to act purportedly.

:09:28.:09:34.

Birmingham City Council has advised me that there has been no policy on

:09:35.:09:39.

their part to limit the number of planning enforcement cases they

:09:40.:09:44.

pursue, but I note there has been a steady reduction in recent years. To

:09:45.:09:50.

be fair, they have initiated a limited article four direction

:09:51.:09:54.

covering a small part of my constituency, which means that

:09:55.:09:59.

planning permission is needed before a family house can be converted into

:10:00.:10:09.

a house of multiple occupation. What I understand to be a change from a

:10:10.:10:13.

class three to a class for use. But, Mr Speaker, the problems

:10:14.:10:19.

continue, and it is not confined to one area of my constituency, or

:10:20.:10:23.

indeed to one part of Birmingham, but is an issue which affects many

:10:24.:10:27.

towns and cities across the country, as I think is evidence by

:10:28.:10:32.

the broad support for this bill. Examples of these problems include

:10:33.:10:39.

Mr and Mrs White, a retired couple who, I believe, are in the gallery

:10:40.:10:43.

today. The developer who bought the House next door commenced an

:10:44.:10:48.

extension that effectively changed their detached home into a

:10:49.:10:52.

semidetached oddity, as the roof extension expanded to sit on top of

:10:53.:10:58.

their roof, and guttering. The council failed to take enforcement

:10:59.:11:03.

action, despite what commencing without planning approval and being

:11:04.:11:07.

beyond the scope of permitted at element. A survey's report has

:11:08.:11:12.

indicated the damage that has been done to the external wall of their

:11:13.:11:16.

home. This has cost them thousands of pounds in court fees, and as yet,

:11:17.:11:25.

the problem continues. Mrs O'Sullivan complained of a work on

:11:26.:11:28.

her extension, which included digging up the foundations in a shed

:11:29.:11:34.

alleyway had commenced without planning permission. The council

:11:35.:11:39.

agreed to investigate, but advised in advance "in deciding whether it

:11:40.:11:42.

would be expedient to take enforcement action, the council has

:11:43.:11:46.

to take into account whether any breach of planning control an

:11:47.:11:51.

acceptably affects public amenity or the use of land and buildings, which

:11:52.:11:56.

should be protected in the public interest". In this case, the

:11:57.:12:02.

extension was not covered by permitted development delegations

:12:03.:12:06.

and needed planning approval. Nonetheless, the council charged

:12:07.:12:09.

that the risk to Mrs O'Sullivan's property constituted and limited

:12:10.:12:16.

harm. Her loss of life did not justify action. A constituent

:12:17.:12:20.

complained about a landlord's development that exceeded the

:12:21.:12:24.

dimensions on the plan available on the council website. But was told

:12:25.:12:29.

that officers had concluded that it wasn't expedient to take any action.

:12:30.:12:36.

Mr Tempest complained that the Britannia group continued to build

:12:37.:12:41.

extensions designed to convert existing homes into eight bedroom

:12:42.:12:44.

properties, despite planning permission being refused. Elsewhere,

:12:45.:12:52.

cowboy builders demolished, without permission, the chimneys and gas

:12:53.:12:56.

fruits which supported the gas fire of an elderly couple, putting them

:12:57.:13:03.

at serious risk. Gas flutes. Is another property when a constituent

:13:04.:13:08.

complained, a 3 level development overlooking his garden and his

:13:09.:13:13.

neighbours, was completed with disregard to the Article four

:13:14.:13:18.

direction and without permission. I could go on, Mr Speaker, I have case

:13:19.:13:25.

after case of rogue developers and cowboy builders doing as they

:13:26.:13:30.

please. All of these cases are not ordinary people, who have worked and

:13:31.:13:35.

saved for their family home, only to find landlords and developers

:13:36.:13:40.

working hand and glove with cowboy builders, buying up nearby

:13:41.:13:44.

properties and turning their road or street into a series of mini

:13:45.:13:48.

hostels. It's no surprise that the value of their properties begin to

:13:49.:13:52.

plummet to the point where the only one buying is yet another

:13:53.:13:58.

developer. So, the cycle begins again. As I have been investigating

:13:59.:14:04.

this issue, I have become aware of an unintended consequence of the

:14:05.:14:07.

permitted development arrangements. I want to be clear that I have

:14:08.:14:09.

nothing against permitted development. I welcome the

:14:10.:14:14.

government's good intentions in trying to make it easier for people

:14:15.:14:19.

to make small alterations or additions to their home. But, I'm

:14:20.:14:24.

not sure that the government ever intended that this permission would

:14:25.:14:29.

be exploited by ruthless landlords and developers, destroying family

:14:30.:14:33.

homes and bringing misery to thousands of ordinary families and

:14:34.:14:38.

retired couples like The Wyatt Family. The local authority advisers

:14:39.:14:42.

knew that the changes in the law means that many individual owners

:14:43.:14:47.

are unclear about what they can and cannot build. Those that advise the

:14:48.:14:55.

rogue landlords always there on the side of ever greater expansion. My

:14:56.:15:03.

ten minute rule Bill seeks to achieve four things. Firstly it

:15:04.:15:07.

calls for the Department for Communities and Local Government to

:15:08.:15:11.

produce clearer guidance for planning authorities on when

:15:12.:15:15.

enforcement action should be taken. It asks that although called

:15:16.:15:18.

authorities published an enforcement plan so that grey areas are reduced.

:15:19.:15:25.

Secondly, it calls for a simple right of appeal for those who are

:15:26.:15:30.

the victims of this rogue building, where the local authority concludes

:15:31.:15:33.

that it is not expedient to act. Thirdly, it asks that these

:15:34.:15:39.

extension should be independently checked against a building

:15:40.:15:41.

regulations, to make sure that they are safe. At present, there is

:15:42.:15:47.

nothing to stop a rogue developer employing his or her own inspector

:15:48.:15:52.

to sign off the dodgy work done by his or her team of cowboy builders.

:15:53.:15:57.

If we don't act on this, a tragedy will surely follow. Finally, it

:15:58.:16:02.

calls on the government to consider the introduction of fixed penalty

:16:03.:16:08.

fines, to serve as a deterrent against the action of rogue

:16:09.:16:13.

developers. Such penalties to be modelled on those the government

:16:14.:16:18.

already proposes in clause 86 of the Housing and planning Bill, to deal

:16:19.:16:22.

with rogue landlords. This tenement rule Bill calls for a modest number

:16:23.:16:29.

of changes, designed to protect family homes, addressed the

:16:30.:16:33.

enforcement problems and ease the position on permitted development.

:16:34.:16:38.

So that once again it fulfils the aspirations of government ministers

:16:39.:16:44.

without giving a licence to ride roughshod over local people and

:16:45.:16:49.

destroying family homes and local communities I commend it to the

:16:50.:16:54.

house. The question is that the honourable member have leave to

:16:55.:16:55.

bring in the Bill. The ayes have it. Who will prepare

:16:56.:17:13.

the bills? Nigel Evans, Michael fabricant, Diana Johnson, Norman

:17:14.:17:19.

Lamb, Greg Mulholland, Jess Phillips, Alan Whitehead and myself,

:17:20.:17:22.

Mr Speaker. Protection of family homes,

:17:23.:18:05.

enforcement in permitted development Bill. Second reading, what day. 29th

:18:06.:18:14.

of January, 2016. Thank you, order, we come to the main business and to

:18:15.:18:21.

the opposition day debate in the name of the Scottish National party.

:18:22.:18:25.

It may be for the convenience of the house for me to tell it that the

:18:26.:18:32.

amendment has not been selected. To move the motion, I call Mr Brendan

:18:33.:18:36.

O'Hara. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I beg to move

:18:37.:18:43.

that this house believes that Trident should not be renewed. It is

:18:44.:18:50.

a very important type... It should not be renewed. It is a pleasure to

:18:51.:18:55.

move this motion, which stands in my name and those of my honourable and

:18:56.:18:59.

Right Honourable friends from the Scottish National party. Applied

:19:00.:19:00.

country and the Green party. When the SNP were elected in such

:19:01.:19:10.

numbers to this place in May, we were elected on a promise to do

:19:11.:19:13.

three things. Firstly, argued that the number of maximum powers be

:19:14.:19:21.

devolved to the Scottish Parliament. That we would fight tooth and nail

:19:22.:19:28.

against austerity and protect the poorest and vulnerable in our

:19:29.:19:31.

society from the worst excesses of this government and to a -- oppose

:19:32.:19:39.

Trident. The SNP can say that within the first six months of being here,

:19:40.:19:43.

we have done exactly what we promised to do. Of course, there is

:19:44.:19:48.

much more that we still need to do on all of these issues, but no one

:19:49.:19:52.

will be ever able to accuse us of not doing what we said we would do.

:19:53.:19:57.

Therefore, Mr Speaker, I beg to move the motion that Trident should not

:19:58.:20:01.

be renewed. In recent months, tried it and the issue of the UK's

:20:02.:20:07.

nuclear... I will make some progress if the lady will give me... Mr

:20:08.:20:12.

Speaker, no one can deny that Trident and the issue of the nuclear

:20:13.:20:15.

deterrent has not been in the forefront of the public debate for

:20:16.:20:20.

many, many years. Not only because this is the 70th anniversary of the

:20:21.:20:23.

dropping of the atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki another very

:20:24.:20:27.

soon, the United Kingdom will decide whether or not to commit to spend

:20:28.:20:34.

167,000 million pounds over the lifetime of the Trident programme.

:20:35.:20:39.

We had high hopes that we would not be a lone voice. When the rank of

:20:40.:20:46.

the British Labour Party elected the Right Honourable member for

:20:47.:20:50.

Islington and about unilateralist, we on this bench is felt there was a

:20:51.:20:54.

certain hope of a serious opposition to Trident. The mere thought of such

:20:55.:21:01.

a thing happening caused palpitations in the red and blue

:21:02.:21:04.

shades of the British establishment. But I do genuinely wish the Right

:21:05.:21:10.

Honourable member for Islington well in continuing his robust opposition

:21:11.:21:14.

to Trident. I would say to him and his members that the Scottish

:21:15.:21:18.

National Party... Yes? While the honourable gentleman is

:21:19.:21:27.

outlining the reasons for his motion in his beach, I wonder if you could

:21:28.:21:34.

explain to me the SNP's apparent incoherence. -- in his speech.

:21:35.:21:39.

During the Scottish referendum campaign, they were pledging to

:21:40.:21:42.

scrap Trident on one hand, but saying that they would seek to join

:21:43.:21:47.

Nato, a nuclear Alliance, on the other hand.

:21:48.:21:54.

The honourable lady will... Forgive me if I don't accept for a moment

:21:55.:22:00.

her definition of incoherence. LAUGHTER

:22:01.:22:04.

To be incoherent, you would have to do suggest that Germany, Spain, so

:22:05.:22:12.

many other members of Nato are equally incoherent... Please,

:22:13.:22:19.

gentlemen, let me finish the answer. The last two general secretaries of

:22:20.:22:25.

Nato have been Danish and Norwegian. They have exactly the same position

:22:26.:22:26.

that we currently advocate. I realise you are very keen to get

:22:27.:22:35.

in on this, so keen you left a message on my door this morning.

:22:36.:22:39.

LAUGHTER I am not keen to get into this

:22:40.:22:43.

debate and I didn't leave a message on anybody's. ! Mr Brendan O'Hara.

:22:44.:22:49.

My apologies, the honourable member left a note on my door this morning.

:22:50.:22:56.

Make a speech! I will come to you. Was it a last note? The honourable

:22:57.:23:05.

gentlemen... LAUGHTER That is a matter of debate! The

:23:06.:23:10.

honourable gentleman has the floor, when it is clear that he is not

:23:11.:23:15.

taking an intervention, he must not be hollered at from a sedentary

:23:16.:23:18.

position from either side of the house, he is free to develop his

:23:19.:23:25.

case. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I do wish the Right Honourable member for

:23:26.:23:28.

Islington well. I would say to his benches that being against Trident

:23:29.:23:39.

can actually be a vote winner. The SNP have returned in such great

:23:40.:23:43.

numbers on an explicitly anti-Trident platform. In recent

:23:44.:23:48.

weeks, the Scottish Parliament, yet again, has reaffirmed its half-life

:23:49.:23:51.

and other farming opposition to Trident. The Scottish Government,

:23:52.:23:57.

the Scottish TUC, churches and great swathes of civic society has set its

:23:58.:24:00.

face against Trident -- other government opposition. Will my

:24:01.:24:05.

honourable friend take the opportunity to remind us how the

:24:06.:24:08.

different political parties in the Scottish parliament voted on

:24:09.:24:12.

Trident? And remind us what decision was reached at the annual conference

:24:13.:24:17.

of the Scottish Labour Party? Does he not think it strange that the

:24:18.:24:21.

single member of Parliament for the Scottish Labour Party whose party

:24:22.:24:24.

opposes Trident, he opposes Trident, isn't even in the chamber

:24:25.:24:29.

for this debate? I thank my right honourable friend for that

:24:30.:24:35.

intervention. As he correctly points out, there is now an established

:24:36.:24:39.

consensus among the Scottish political parties against Trident.

:24:40.:24:42.

The Scottish National Party, the Scottish Green party, Scottish

:24:43.:24:48.

Socialists and he is correct... Two seconds, the Scottish Labour Party

:24:49.:24:54.

are all opposed to Trident. Yet, we have a government in Westminster

:24:55.:24:59.

with just one elected member of Parliament representing a party who

:25:00.:25:03.

failed to achieve even 15% of the vote in Scotland. Yet, they insist,

:25:04.:25:09.

they insist, that they have the right to foist on Scotland, weapons

:25:10.:25:15.

of mass destruction, which Scotland has said we do not want. It doesn't

:25:16.:25:22.

suit you. Does he not find it strange the contrast between the

:25:23.:25:25.

unified voice from Scotland and the confusion from the Wales Labour

:25:26.:25:31.

Party? Quite apart from the First Minister, who wants to move it down

:25:32.:25:33.

to west Wales! I agree with my honourable friend.

:25:34.:25:41.

It is interesting that the number of times I have been asked why the

:25:42.:25:47.

media and the press, are you doing this simply to embarrass the Labour

:25:48.:25:51.

Party? My reply would be... The Labour Party need to embarrass the

:25:52.:25:53.

Labour Party? My reply would be... The Labour Party to counter this

:25:54.:25:55.

issue. I have always argued that there is

:25:56.:26:06.

no moral common economic and no military case for Trident, unless

:26:07.:26:11.

the Lee macro and let's be absolutely clear that there is no

:26:12.:26:14.

moral case for any state possessing weapons of mass destruction.

:26:15.:26:19.

Possessing the ability to destroy the world several times over and

:26:20.:26:22.

everything in it is not something to be proud of, and indeed it is

:26:23.:26:29.

something I believe to be deeply shaming, and there is no article of

:26:30.:26:33.

faith that has ever said it is okayed to hold the threat of

:26:34.:26:36.

annihilation over your neighbour and disguise it as peacekeeping. With

:26:37.:26:41.

the honourable gentleman not agree that the possession of nuclear

:26:42.:26:45.

weapons sirs as a deterrent which has worked well for many years, and

:26:46.:26:48.

that if one nation unilaterally disarm is, as Ukraine did in 1994,

:26:49.:26:54.

in reliance on a treaty with Russia that they would not invade, and that

:26:55.:26:59.

was broken and Ukraine are now suffering the absence of those

:27:00.:27:05.

weapons. I will pick up those points later on. I think the idea of a

:27:06.:27:09.

deterrent is important and it is something I will address. Not only

:27:10.:27:16.

is Trident morally questionable, it is economic madness. In 2006 when

:27:17.:27:20.

the success of the programme was discussed, the likely cost of

:27:21.:27:24.

building new submarines was put at up to ?20 billion. There was on top

:27:25.:27:37.

of that a ?10 billion contingency. ?41 billion set aside to build

:27:38.:27:42.

submarines. That has at least doubled in the last decade, and I

:27:43.:27:45.

shudder to think what it will be in the next decade. Indeed, based on

:27:46.:27:50.

the government's own figures, and figures coming from the government

:27:51.:27:54.

benches, the lifetime cost of Trident will be in the region of

:27:55.:28:02.

?167,000 -- 167,000 million pounds. That is real money, and there was no

:28:03.:28:06.

escaping the fact, and it should embarrass the Labour Party, that

:28:07.:28:09.

that money has been made on the banks of the poor and the most

:28:10.:28:14.

vulnerable in our society. On the day that the Chancellor appeared at

:28:15.:28:20.

Faslane, appearing out of nowhere like the cartoon character Mr Benn,

:28:21.:28:30.

to announce ?500 million worth of extensions to jetties, on the same

:28:31.:28:34.

day the United Nations announced that they would be investigating as

:28:35.:28:38.

to whether this government's policy on cutting welfare support to the

:28:39.:28:42.

disabled was in violation of their human rights. I know that the right

:28:43.:28:50.

honourable member who represents Barrow, I do believe that he is

:28:51.:28:55.

extremely anxious to get involved, but I would say that as the member

:28:56.:29:03.

of Parliament for Argyle? As the member for Argyll and Bute, I

:29:04.:29:09.

represent Faslane, I live roughly six miles from the base, and for

:29:10.:29:13.

decades, my constituents have been told that their jobs and their

:29:14.:29:19.

prosperity totally depends on it. I will give way. Does my honourable

:29:20.:29:27.

friend, who is in a neighbouring constituency of mine, have the same

:29:28.:29:33.

grave concerns over the alarming number of nuclear safety incidents

:29:34.:29:35.

that have been reported at Faslane naval base? There have been a 54%

:29:36.:29:42.

increase in the mothers of incidents reported in 2013-14, compare to

:29:43.:29:50.

2012-13. These incidents threaten the safety, not only of the workers

:29:51.:29:56.

of Faslane nuclear base in their constituency, but the majority of

:29:57.:30:02.

whom live in my constituency, but the communities who also surround

:30:03.:30:08.

it? Before we proceed, can I remind the House that interventions should

:30:09.:30:15.

be brief. It is not proper for a member to read out what amounts to a

:30:16.:30:23.

mini speech which purports to be an intervention. The intervention must

:30:24.:30:29.

be brief. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I do agree with my honourable friend,

:30:30.:30:33.

that safety is paramount. Indeed, it was something I brought up last week

:30:34.:30:38.

at the Westminster Hall debate when there was huge safety concerns,

:30:39.:30:44.

among workers at Faslane about cuts that have been made. I would hope

:30:45.:30:48.

that my honourable friends would realise that my election in Argyll

:30:49.:30:55.

and Bute would suggest you do not have too put all your eggs in one

:30:56.:30:59.

basket, but what I would say, and let me be absolutely clear that in

:31:00.:31:05.

saying no to Trident we are not saying no to Faslane, far from it.

:31:06.:31:13.

The SNP has never and will never consider closing the Faslane base.

:31:14.:31:27.

Hopefully soon not rather than later as an independent Scotland, Faslane

:31:28.:31:32.

will have a bright, non-nuclear future as a conventional naval

:31:33.:31:37.

base. Faslane is a fantastic facility and its proximity to the

:31:38.:31:41.

north Atlantic means that future prospects are not dependent on

:31:42.:31:43.

having nuclear submarines based there. Given the outrageous

:31:44.:31:51.

chortling from both sides of the House on this, it is clear that the

:31:52.:31:56.

only way that the UK is established and parties will support Faslane is

:31:57.:32:00.

that if there are nuclear weapon is there. What a shocking proposal that

:32:01.:32:06.

is. I absolutely agree, and what we have seen today is any pretence that

:32:07.:32:14.

the Labour Party will somehow take a radical position on nuclear

:32:15.:32:23.

weapons... I will give way. I thank the honourable gentleman for giving

:32:24.:32:26.

way, and some embers of the Labour Party do support his view. --

:32:27.:32:41.

members. I am one of those. I thank my honourable friend for his support

:32:42.:32:45.

and it is very much appreciated. I will make progress and I will come

:32:46.:32:50.

back to the honourable gentleman. I am grateful to the honourable

:32:51.:32:53.

gentleman for giving way. Just on the point the honourable gentleman

:32:54.:32:59.

said that without nuclear submarines at Faslane, and with the separation

:33:00.:33:03.

of Scotland from the rest of the UK, that he would seek to have a naval

:33:04.:33:07.

base with ships at Faslane, as I understood it. He had also said that

:33:08.:33:12.

he considered it a waste of money, building new hardware for the Navy

:33:13.:33:16.

because it could be better spent on welfare. Those points do not seem to

:33:17.:33:23.

marry up. I understand what you are saying, but we have at no point said

:33:24.:33:29.

we will double spend this money. Money we save from not renewing

:33:30.:33:33.

Trident, would be in the region of ?15 billion over a lifetime of

:33:34.:33:39.

Trident, money that could be invested in conventional defences,

:33:40.:33:42.

and in turning Faslane from a nuclear submarine port to a state of

:33:43.:33:48.

the art naval base and a conventional naval base. I will make

:33:49.:33:56.

progress. I believe I have been very generous. I have always argued that

:33:57.:34:02.

there is no military case for Trident. Quite simply because

:34:03.:34:07.

Trident is not a military weapon. Trident is a political weapon. It is

:34:08.:34:12.

a political weapon which can never, and will never, be used. And yet it

:34:13.:34:19.

is set to consume anything between 30 and 50% of the UK defence

:34:20.:34:27.

procurement budget. I will give way. I am grateful, but does he not

:34:28.:34:31.

understand that it is being used every day? In every moment that we

:34:32.:34:39.

have continuous at sea deterrence, it is being used as a deterrent. The

:34:40.:34:43.

fact that it is never fired in anger is actually a symbol of its success.

:34:44.:34:51.

It will come as no surprise to the honourable gentleman, I do not agree

:34:52.:34:56.

at all, and I move on to the point of deterrence. I will make progress.

:34:57.:35:01.

I think I have been very generous open till now. Let's be honest, the

:35:02.:35:11.

money that is being spent on Trident is being put into keeping Britain at

:35:12.:35:16.

the top table of the United Nations Security Council. Money that should

:35:17.:35:20.

be doing good, whether peacekeeping, reacting to emergencies like Ebola

:35:21.:35:26.

or the humanitarian crisis unfolding in front of us in the Middle East

:35:27.:35:31.

and North Africa, I believe has been sacrificed on eight elective

:35:32.:35:35.

military and political ego trip that has more to do with status than it

:35:36.:35:43.

does defence. I will make some progress, I will come back to you.

:35:44.:35:48.

Don't take my word for it, the evidence at the Defence Select

:35:49.:35:52.

Committee last week, General Sir Richard Sheriff, referring to money

:35:53.:35:56.

for Trident said "we either go down the line of nuclear capability at

:35:57.:36:00.

the expense of conventional capability, or conventional

:36:01.:36:03.

capability at the expense of nuclear". It seems to be that sort

:36:04.:36:09.

of zero sum game. The problem with Trident is it puts pressure on the

:36:10.:36:13.

rest of the defence budget to the detriment, I believe, of the overall

:36:14.:36:17.

security. Even Tony Blair am not someone I would seek to quote often

:36:18.:36:22.

in This Place, Tony Blair in his memoirs, when talking about Trident

:36:23.:36:29.

said, " the expense is huge, and the utility nonexistent in terms of

:36:30.:36:33.

military use, but he decided to go down the road of Trident renewal

:36:34.:36:39.

because it would be too big a downgrading of our status as a

:36:40.:36:43.

nation". I will give way.

:36:44.:36:48.

Would he agree that nuclear weapons actually are making us less safe,

:36:49.:36:52.

not more safe, because they get a signal to the rest of the world to

:36:53.:36:55.

said that the only way you can guarantee your security is by

:36:56.:36:58.

acquiring nuclear weapons, so it is not countering it? I would

:36:59.:37:05.

absolutely agree. But Tony Blair summed it up. The UK's obsession

:37:06.:37:09.

with having an independent nuclear deterrent is little more than a form

:37:10.:37:14.

of Imperial power indulging in a desperate search for a better

:37:15.:37:20.

yesterday. Possessing Trident is not about defence. It is about the

:37:21.:37:25.

illusion of continuing upon past glories, regardless of cost.

:37:26.:37:29.

Regardless of the fact that we cannot afford it, pride it seems

:37:30.:37:34.

will not let us back down. We would rather cut benefits from the

:37:35.:37:38.

disabled, we would rather take tax credit away from the working poor,

:37:39.:37:42.

as long as the bottomless pit of Trident is fed. Would you give way?

:37:43.:37:50.

I will. I am grateful to stop I have written to the former First Minister

:37:51.:37:54.

about these issues are a number of occasions and not yet received

:37:55.:37:57.

answers. In the event of decommissioning the nuclear fleet at

:37:58.:38:03.

Faslane, where in Scotland would those nuclear materials be disposed

:38:04.:38:14.

of? Scotland is absolutely set to take its responsibility. Scotland

:38:15.:38:17.

act we have responsibilities to do it, and Scotland will do so, but to

:38:18.:38:24.

use that as an argument to rearm, is frankly ridiculous. I will make

:38:25.:38:33.

progress. Possession of top end military capabilities, without the

:38:34.:38:38.

ability to exercise them effectively, is known in strategic

:38:39.:38:45.

powers as a hollow force. To put it in a more colloquial way, we are

:38:46.:38:51.

acting as having a fur coat and no knickers. Trident is a military and

:38:52.:38:58.

political ego trip that is being paid for on the backs of the poor.

:38:59.:39:05.

The UK independent nuclear deterrent is not, I believe, all that

:39:06.:39:09.

independent. I refer you to the Defence Select Committee report on

:39:10.:39:16.

the 30th of June 2006 which said" in theory, the British premise that

:39:17.:39:19.

could give the order to fire Trident without getting prior approval from

:39:20.:39:25.

the White House. The UK can maintain a facade of being a global military

:39:26.:39:29.

power. In practice, it is difficult conceive of any situation in which a

:39:30.:39:33.

Prime Minister would fire Trident without prior US approval. In

:39:34.:39:38.

reality, it would be an American US commander in chief who will

:39:39.:39:45.

ultimately decide, and in 18 months' time, that commander in chief could

:39:46.:39:50.

be president Donald Trump. Does anyone seriously think that Trident

:39:51.:39:57.

makes the world a safer place? I have already given way once to the

:39:58.:40:04.

honourable gentleman. Everyone accepts that the world has never

:40:05.:40:10.

been in a more uncertain place. The world is changing, and the threats

:40:11.:40:14.

are changing. They are most certainly not as they were 30 or 40

:40:15.:40:20.

years ago. Many military strategists recognise that these changes has to

:40:21.:40:26.

be prepared for according. They have identified potent threats, mass

:40:27.:40:31.

migration into mega cities, by the 2040s they reckon that 70% of the

:40:32.:40:35.

world will be open eyes. Great movement of people because of

:40:36.:40:43.

climate change and the search for natural resources such as water and

:40:44.:40:45.

sources of energy, are going to cause huge global problems. We are

:40:46.:40:51.

increasingly engaged in an ideological war with terrorism,

:40:52.:40:58.

hybrid warfare and cyber attacks. Indeed, the Prime Minister himself

:40:59.:41:03.

said that Daesh were and existential threat to the UK, and we have to

:41:04.:41:09.

assume sadly that, after the evil of Daesh is destroyed, there will be

:41:10.:41:12.

other ideological driven groups who will emerge. Looking ahead in many

:41:13.:41:18.

ways, this traditional state will not be the main enemy. So, why,

:41:19.:41:22.

given the radical changes that are happening in the world, it is the

:41:23.:41:27.

UK's response exactly as it was 30 or 40 years ago question not having

:41:28.:41:32.

nuclear armed submarines at the 24 hours a day, seven days a week 365

:41:33.:41:37.

days a year, armed with nuclear missiles are pointed and designed to

:41:38.:41:42.

arbitrate European cities. I will give way. Are a case we have heard

:41:43.:41:54.

many times. How does he addressed the single inescapable fact that the

:41:55.:41:57.

only nation that has ever had nuclear weapons used against it,

:41:58.:42:01.

didn't have any? That was, namely, Japan. Is that the intellectual Tory

:42:02.:42:10.

argument? I'm not entirely sure what the gentleman is driving at. It

:42:11.:42:18.

wasn't exactly worth waiting for. It makes no military sense at all... I

:42:19.:42:23.

return to the view that Trident is not a military weapon, it is purely

:42:24.:42:27.

a political weapon. For the last time, I will give way to the

:42:28.:42:31.

honourable lady. I thank the honourable member for giving way. He

:42:32.:42:34.

is clearly satisfied that the Russian state is no longer a threat

:42:35.:42:38.

to Western security and UK security. Perhaps he can give us the

:42:39.:42:45.

reasons why that is the case, why he is so confident that Russia is no

:42:46.:42:48.

longer a threat to the security in the UK? I would have to say to the

:42:49.:42:55.

honourable lady that what she is advocating is that every country in

:42:56.:43:00.

the world arms itself to the teeth. Germany and Poland and Norway and

:43:01.:43:05.

Sweden, is that what the honourable lady is honestly are doing? That if

:43:06.:43:10.

you believe that Russia is going to come speeding across the plains and

:43:11.:43:15.

invade the United Kingdom, is that what you honestly advocating? In

:43:16.:43:19.

that case, if you want to argue that every country in the world should

:43:20.:43:23.

possess its own nuclear weapons, I would advise you take it to the

:43:24.:43:27.

Labour Party. From the sound of it, you may be able to get support. Mr

:43:28.:43:37.

Speaker, as I mentioned at the speech, a forlorn hope indeed, but

:43:38.:43:40.

there was a genuine hope that perhaps with the election of the

:43:41.:43:42.

Right Honourable member for Islington they would at least be a

:43:43.:43:45.

debate on Trident in this place. I fear that the leader has not managed

:43:46.:43:50.

to take his party with him at the attendance, paltry attendance,

:43:51.:43:54.

today, from the Labour Party would suggest exactly that. The Labour

:43:55.:43:59.

Party's refusal to debate Trident will disappoint many among their own

:44:00.:44:03.

rank and file. I've no doubt that when, as he did yesterday, the Prime

:44:04.:44:10.

Minister promised a vote on the main decision, I have no doubt I will see

:44:11.:44:13.

the Right Honourable member for Islington voting with the SNP

:44:14.:44:17.

against Trident renewal. But, I fear that he will have to have swum

:44:18.:44:24.

through a tide of his own MPs going through the lobbies with the

:44:25.:44:27.

Conservative Party again to support Trident renewal at the cost of

:44:28.:44:35.

167,000 million pounds. You love to talk about being a multilateralist

:44:36.:44:42.

party. The Labour Party cannot hide behind the figleaf of

:44:43.:44:44.

multilateralism while committing the United Kingdom to this massive

:44:45.:44:53.

increase in nuclear weapons free. It is an absolute figleaf. I'm afraid

:44:54.:44:56.

the Labour Party, if they decide to support the government in renewing

:44:57.:45:02.

the Trident missile programme, I believe they are as morally bankrupt

:45:03.:45:08.

as the Conservative Party. If Trident ever was an answer to a 20th

:45:09.:45:15.

century problem, not to the problems we face in the 21st-century. Trident

:45:16.:45:20.

is purely political. It is not a military weapon. It does not make us

:45:21.:45:25.

any more safe than nations who do not possess weapons of mass

:45:26.:45:30.

destruction. I am just about to wind up. Trident is all about the UK

:45:31.:45:36.

projecting power. And a desperate attempt to cling on to the remnants

:45:37.:45:42.

of a fading imperialist past. It is paid for on the backs of the poor.

:45:43.:45:46.

Trident is diminishing the rest of the UK's capability. Therefore, Mr

:45:47.:45:52.

Speaker, there is no moral, economic or military case for renewing

:45:53.:45:53.

Trident. The question is as on the order

:45:54.:46:02.

paper, called the Secretary of State for Defence, secretary Michael

:46:03.:46:03.

Fallon. Thank you, Mr Speaker. On these

:46:04.:46:11.

benches, we welcome the opportunity to discuss our nuclear deterrent.

:46:12.:46:16.

Let me thank the honourable member for Argyll and Bute for taking this

:46:17.:46:20.

motion today. In his statement yesterday, the Prime Minister set

:46:21.:46:24.

out the growing scale, diversity and complex city of the threats that we

:46:25.:46:29.

face. And to tackle those threats, we have to have an array of weapons.

:46:30.:46:33.

Up to and including a nuclear deterrent. It is worrying that in a

:46:34.:46:40.

more dangerous world that the cross-party consensus we used to

:46:41.:46:44.

enjoy on our deterrent does now seem to be weakening. I should remind

:46:45.:46:50.

members of it was Labour ministers, Ashley and Bevan, who, in the 1940s,

:46:51.:46:56.

argued for a nuclear deterrent with a union Jack on the top of it.

:46:57.:47:02.

Today, we find a leader of the Labour Party opposing his party's

:47:03.:47:06.

official policy. He wants to scrap Trident. He said he is no longer

:47:07.:47:14.

prepared to use it. What is perhaps equally worrying is the

:47:15.:47:17.

nonattendance, now, the shadow Secretary of State. Because, she has

:47:18.:47:21.

been admirably clear in opposing her leader. While the -- agreeing to

:47:22.:47:29.

lead a review of the policy. I can understand her anger at the decision

:47:30.:47:33.

to appoint as co-chair of that review, Mr Ken Livingstone.

:47:34.:47:39.

Somebody, of course, who doesn't want to review Trident, he wants to

:47:40.:47:44.

abolish Trident. Indeed, he declared London to be a nuclear free zone.

:47:45.:47:49.

This is like pointing an arsonist as the code chief fire officer. --

:47:50.:47:55.

joint chief. Our international allies will look on with dismay at

:47:56.:48:02.

this shambles opposite. Which, I have to say this, can only be of

:48:03.:48:07.

comfort to adverse threes. Let me appeal, again, today -- comfort to

:48:08.:48:12.

those opposed to us. I want to ask the Labour party who proudly wanted

:48:13.:48:22.

to renew the consensus between us. To put aside, the Chancellor said on

:48:23.:48:26.

television on Sunday, party politics in the national interest and join us

:48:27.:48:30.

in remaking the case for the deterrent. Of course. I thank the

:48:31.:48:37.

Secretary of State for giving way. I can give him the pledge that Labour

:48:38.:48:40.

MPs will help him get through the programme that we started in

:48:41.:48:44.

government. Will he make a pledge in the house, today, that he will base

:48:45.:48:48.

the main gate decision on the operational contracting need of this

:48:49.:48:54.

programme, and not on political considerations? I'm very happy to

:48:55.:49:00.

give him that particular assurance. And I look forward to debating in

:49:01.:49:06.

this house and deciding on the principle of renewing the four

:49:07.:49:10.

submarines, not the Trident sub, but four submarines, a decision this

:49:11.:49:13.

Parliament must take next year. Of course. Can the honourable gentleman

:49:14.:49:19.

tell us when we will actually have a debate on Trident when we actually

:49:20.:49:25.

take a decision? That decision of course had to await the publication

:49:26.:49:28.

of the strategic defence and security review yesterday. I hope we

:49:29.:49:36.

can take that decision in 2016. Then we have to get on and start building

:49:37.:49:42.

the successor submarines, as I shall explain. Successive governments,

:49:43.:49:44.

Labour and Conservative, have charged that a minimal credible

:49:45.:49:52.

nuclear deterrent is credible to our national security. That a nuclear

:49:53.:49:57.

deterrent is the only assured way of deterring nuclear threats and

:49:58.:50:00.

blackmail, by nuclear states. For more than 60 years, our nuclear

:50:01.:50:06.

deterrent has done that job. And let us, whatever side of the argument we

:50:07.:50:10.

are on, paid tribute to the crews of HMS Vanguard, vengeance, victorious

:50:11.:50:17.

and vigilant. To their families and all those at Faslane who ensure and

:50:18.:50:22.

has ensured that one of those boats is on patrol, 24 hours a day, 365

:50:23.:50:32.

days a year. Of course. Thank you for giving way. I also thank him for

:50:33.:50:38.

his tribute, as I stand here as a wife of a sub Mariner, serving on

:50:39.:50:40.

HMS victorious. However, the crews are doing a job,

:50:41.:50:50.

they are doing a service. They are serving, as they are sent to do.

:50:51.:50:55.

They are there, defending our democracy. The Secretary of State

:50:56.:51:02.

has to realise the crews are doing their job. Not all of them will

:51:03.:51:03.

agree with his views on Trident. I accept what the honourable lady

:51:04.:51:12.

says. Of course, if she is married to one of them, she will know better

:51:13.:51:16.

than anybody in this house. But I do say I have met the crews of some of

:51:17.:51:21.

the submarines. I have yet to meet a sub Mariner who does not have faith

:51:22.:51:26.

in the job he is doing, but there we are. Let me be clear what the

:51:27.:51:31.

decision that the honourable member asked me about. The decision we have

:51:32.:51:37.

to take next year as a parliament is not to replace the Trident missile

:51:38.:51:43.

or renew warheads, it is to replace the Vanguard submarines. That needs

:51:44.:51:48.

to be replaced by the early 20 30s. Of course.

:51:49.:51:53.

I would like to thank my right honourable friend. He has mentioned

:51:54.:51:59.

fast lane. Can he actually tell me what the future of Faslane might be

:52:00.:52:09.

without nuclear submarines and the largest site in Scotland would be

:52:10.:52:12.

lost if nuclear submarines were banned.

:52:13.:52:16.

There would be a significant implication. For Faslane. If the

:52:17.:52:24.

nuclear deterrent was no longer there. It was pointed out yesterday

:52:25.:52:30.

by GMB Scotland, who said the commitment in the strategic review

:52:31.:52:34.

for multilateralism and the successor programme going ahead is

:52:35.:52:38.

welcome, as it is crucial to jobs in Scotland. That is what GMB Scotland

:52:39.:52:44.

said. I want to make progress. I have given way four times already

:52:45.:52:50.

but I will give way again. This governments was elected on a

:52:51.:52:53.

manifesto commitment to replace the Vanguard submarines. It takes over a

:52:54.:52:59.

decade to build and trial a nuclear submarine. We have to take that

:53:00.:53:06.

decision in 2016. Let me tell the house that design work is already

:53:07.:53:11.

far advanced. Yesterday, the review announced a further investment of

:53:12.:53:15.

?600 million, taking the assessment phase cost from ?3.3 billion, to

:53:16.:53:21.

?3.9 billion. If I may just make a little progress, it brings me to

:53:22.:53:28.

the... Cost. It brings me to the question of why renewal is viable. I

:53:29.:53:32.

want to make three basic points. First, this is about realism. We

:53:33.:53:38.

are, of course, committed to creating the conditions where

:53:39.:53:40.

nuclear weapons will no longer be necessary. In this country, we've

:53:41.:53:46.

reduced our nuclear forces by well over half, since the height of the

:53:47.:53:54.

Cold War. This year, this very year, I cut the number of deployed

:53:55.:53:58.

warheads on each submarine from 48, down to 40. By the mid 2020s we will

:53:59.:54:06.

reduced our stockpile to know more than 180 warheads. Unfortunately,

:54:07.:54:14.

those actions have not been matched anywhere by any other nuclear

:54:15.:54:18.

nation. Nor have they stopped on stable nations from continuing to

:54:19.:54:25.

seek to acquire or develop nuclear weapons -- unstable nations. My

:54:26.:54:29.

honourable friend was first. You mentioned the cost. Yesterday and

:54:30.:54:35.

perhaps even today, we had effective opposition, there would be more

:54:36.:54:40.

focus on cost overruns. This worries me. You are making honourable

:54:41.:54:45.

efforts to do this at the MoD and I salute him, but can he give a

:54:46.:54:48.

commitment that he really will hold the private sector with their feet

:54:49.:54:52.

to the fire that there will be no more cost overruns? This is too big

:54:53.:54:57.

a project to take money from the conventional forces. I can certainly

:54:58.:55:02.

give my friend that assurance and I will come to that, how we we will

:55:03.:55:08.

deliver the programme and keep the downward pressure on costs that he

:55:09.:55:12.

wishes to see. I said that other nations have not matched our own

:55:13.:55:18.

disarmament. Russia, indeed, is commissioning a new class of eight

:55:19.:55:24.

nuclear submarines. Developing and preparing to deploy a variety of

:55:25.:55:30.

land-based ICBM classes and is planning to introduce rail -based

:55:31.:55:37.

ICBMs. Last month, North Korea showed off a long-range ballistic

:55:38.:55:41.

missile carrying miniaturised nuclear warheads and North Korea has

:55:42.:55:45.

carried out three nuclear tests and in defiance of the international

:55:46.:55:49.

community, has conducted ballistic missile tests. In an unpredictable

:55:50.:55:57.

nuclear age, we can't simply wish away threats that exist now or

:55:58.:56:02.

threats that may emerge in the 20 30s the 20 40s and right through the

:56:03.:56:08.

2050s. I give way. On the 14th of July this year,

:56:09.:56:21.

China, the Russian Federation, the UK and the USA reached an agreement

:56:22.:56:26.

with Iran which included the sentence. Under no circumstances

:56:27.:56:31.

well the run ever seek to develop or acquire any nuclear weapons.

:56:32.:56:41.

Progress is being made by negotiation -- under no

:56:42.:56:46.

circumstances will Iran ever seek. Yes, but we have not had similar

:56:47.:56:50.

promises from other states using nuclear weapons and there are still

:56:51.:56:54.

a large number of trying to get their hands nuclear weapons. Let me

:56:55.:56:58.

move on to... I will give way later on but I must make progress. My

:56:59.:57:03.

second point is about the practical effect of the deterrent. Our nuclear

:57:04.:57:08.

deterrent works. It deters aggression every single day. There

:57:09.:57:12.

have been many conflicts in the last six decades and not one of them has

:57:13.:57:17.

involved a direct conflict and wean nuclear states. Not one country

:57:18.:57:22.

under the protection of an extended nuclear umbrella has been invaded --

:57:23.:57:33.

conflict between nuclear states. The member for Argyll and Bute is quite

:57:34.:57:37.

wrong about that. It is operationally independent, with the

:57:38.:57:41.

command and control system as well as the decision making process being

:57:42.:57:45.

ours and ours alone and it of course offers a second decision making

:57:46.:57:51.

centre within Nato that will compromise an adversarial's plans.

:57:52.:57:58.

It is worth remembering that Nato is a nuclear alliance. One of the

:57:59.:58:03.

absurdities, if I may say so, the SNP position is that while opposing

:58:04.:58:07.

Trident they would, if voters had not actually rejected separatism

:58:08.:58:14.

last year, they would have sought Nato membership and then not

:58:15.:58:17.

benefited from the nuclear umbrella. The third reason why we must renew

:58:18.:58:22.

our nuclear submarines is because at the moment there is no alternative.

:58:23.:58:28.

How do we know that? We commissioned the Trident Alternatives Review in

:58:29.:58:36.

2013 and that demonstrated, having looked at all the alternatives,

:58:37.:58:40.

non-submarine and other submarines, in non-continuous deterrent, it

:58:41.:58:46.

demonstrated no alternative system is as capable or cost-effective as

:58:47.:58:51.

the Trident -based deterrent. If you accept there is a threat, and

:58:52.:58:55.

perhaps the party there does not, but if you accept there is a threat

:58:56.:58:59.

that needs to be deterred and if you accept our enemies work nights, the

:59:00.:59:05.

work weekends, then you must also accept there can be no half

:59:06.:59:12.

measures. A full boat, continuous at sea, posture is the way to offer the

:59:13.:59:20.

security we need, at minimum. Thanks for giving way. Can he then

:59:21.:59:24.

explained to me and my colleagues how Trident aggressors the real

:59:25.:59:28.

current threat we are expecting, that from radical jihadis? Would

:59:29.:59:32.

they not be jumping for joy if the United Kingdom ever thought about

:59:33.:59:34.

threatening IS with nuclear weapons? As the document yesterday

:59:35.:59:40.

pointed out there are a series of threats to our country at the moment

:59:41.:59:43.

and we need to deal with all of them. One of them has been the

:59:44.:59:50.

proliferation of nuclear weapons and indeed the commitment of countries

:59:51.:59:54.

like Russia to continue to spend more on developing their nuclear

:59:55.:59:58.

weapons, as I have pointed out. Now we have to... I must make a little

:59:59.:00:03.

the consequences of passing this the consequences of passing this

:00:04.:00:08.

motion tonight. It is scarcely believable that other nations,

:00:09.:00:15.

hearing this news from 4pm today in the House of Commons, will suddenly

:00:16.:00:20.

decide to disarm or to stop seeking nuclear weapons. There are 17,000

:00:21.:00:26.

nuclear weapons in the world at the moment. We would wish there were

:00:27.:00:32.

not, but there are, and anybody voting in this division tonight has

:00:33.:00:39.

to answer, who, after we have got read of hours, would continue to

:00:40.:00:50.

provide the deterrent? -- rid of ours. Madam Speaker, I wonder what

:00:51.:00:55.

message it sends to Rourke and unstable nations if Britain was to

:00:56.:00:59.

scrap its nuclear deterrent? -- Road. It would send a message we are

:01:00.:01:05.

not serious about deterrent other countries and particularly those

:01:06.:01:11.

rogue countries now seeking everyday to develop the kind of nuclear

:01:12.:01:15.

weapons exactly that we already have. In a moment, but we have

:01:16.:01:21.

touched in this debate on the future of HM Naval base clade, one of the

:01:22.:01:27.

largest employment basis in Scotland, a site set to increase to

:01:28.:01:34.

2000 jobs by 2020 when all of the Royal Navy's submarines will be

:01:35.:01:43.

based at five slain -- Naval base Clyde, when they will be based at

:01:44.:01:48.

Faslane. It involves hundreds of firms across our country, including

:01:49.:01:54.

in Scotland, because our state of the art submarines require skills

:01:55.:01:58.

that keep our Royal Navy in our country at the cutting edge and will

:01:59.:02:02.

inspire the next generation of engineers, software developers and

:02:03.:02:05.

designers. If the honourable gentleman had his way, thousands of

:02:06.:02:09.

jobs would disappear and those manufacturing skills would be lost.

:02:10.:02:14.

In a moment, I am just finishing, in a moment. It was not made clear to

:02:15.:02:19.

us how the Scottish National Party plan to deal with the industrial

:02:20.:02:25.

damage that would result from their decision. In the Scottish Parliament

:02:26.:02:28.

they hid behind a vague notion, and I quote, firm commitments must be

:02:29.:02:35.

made to the trade unions on the retention of defence workers' jobs.

:02:36.:02:40.

Workers on the Clyde do not want parliamentary motions. They want to

:02:41.:02:43.

be sure of a pay check every month, they want to know they have a job,

:02:44.:02:50.

and they'd either acting Scottish secretary of the GMB, Gary Smith, he

:02:51.:02:57.

said diversification, and I quote, "is based on Alice In Wonderland

:02:58.:03:03.

politics, promising pie in the sky alternative jobs for workers vital

:03:04.:03:08.

to our national security". That is the authentic voice of the Scottish

:03:09.:03:12.

trade unions. Of course I will give Billy. -- I will give way. The

:03:13.:03:21.

permanent undersecretary said in October that this project, the

:03:22.:03:24.

Trident project, is a project that keeps him awake at night. Given

:03:25.:03:31.

their excessive escalation in Trident costs announced yesterday

:03:32.:03:34.

can he not see how it undermines conventional forces? He may not lose

:03:35.:03:40.

sleep over this but if the UK not sleepwalking into a reduction in

:03:41.:03:43.

conventional forces due to your decisions? Well, the document we

:03:44.:03:50.

published yesterday, the Strategic Defence and Security Review, it

:03:51.:03:54.

really gives a lie to the honourable gentleman's comment because we are

:03:55.:03:58.

spending more on that as well as renewing our programme. He is

:03:59.:04:01.

correct that the management of that programme has to be done properly

:04:02.:04:04.

and cost effectively and I will now turn, if I made, to this whole issue

:04:05.:04:09.

of cuts. Let me make a little progress and then I will try to give

:04:10.:04:13.

way again because I know a number of honourable members want to get in.

:04:14.:04:18.

There have been some wild reports, even accentuated today, that the

:04:19.:04:22.

Trident replacement will cost, I think, ?167 billion, it was

:04:23.:04:28.

suggested. That sessions a year on year growth in GDP of 2.5%. That

:04:29.:04:35.

same logic would see as spending ?800 billion on overseas aid over

:04:36.:04:41.

the same period and a defence budget of ?100 billion in 2060. Let's look

:04:42.:04:46.

at the facts. We now estimate four new submarines would cost ?31

:04:47.:04:54.

billion. That cost, spread over 35 years, amounts to an insurance

:04:55.:05:04.

policy of less than 0.2% per year. That of total Government spending,

:05:05.:05:09.

for a capability that will remain in service until 2060. Let me put that

:05:10.:05:17.

?31 billion in context for the's, and indeed in context for those of

:05:18.:05:24.

my honourable friends who are so keen on advanced high-speed railway

:05:25.:05:29.

lines. It will cost ?31 billion, the programme, with a contingency above

:05:30.:05:33.

that taking the total budget to some ?40 billion. High-speed two will

:05:34.:05:41.

cost ?50 billion. Of course I will give way to the honourable member in

:05:42.:05:49.

the second row -- HS2. You said you would put the ?31 billion in

:05:50.:05:53.

context, but is that not only just an increase of six Boeing pounds in

:05:54.:05:57.

the last year? At the contingency of tenderly and pounds -- ?6 billion.

:05:58.:06:04.

Then the 12 billion extra pounds, which is clearly actually on Trident

:06:05.:06:06.

and therefore the Defence Secretary must be making cuts to the tier one

:06:07.:06:12.

threats to pay for a nuclear deterrent that has passed a tear two

:06:13.:06:20.

threat. There is no doubt that it is coming in the place of conventional

:06:21.:06:23.

protection. There are no cuts to weapons in this document we

:06:24.:06:27.

published yesterday. On the contrary, there are more ships, more

:06:28.:06:32.

planes, more equipment for the special forces, more frigates being

:06:33.:06:36.

built on the Clyde. Let me be very clear. The figure has increased, and

:06:37.:06:40.

we gave the update correctly to the House yesterday. It has increased

:06:41.:06:45.

since last set out in a 2006 White Paper and then adjusted again in

:06:46.:06:51.

2011 so we have given a figure, yesterday, that has been updated

:06:52.:06:56.

from the original estimate four years ago. The cost, to be clear, is

:06:57.:07:03.

?31 billion for the submarines, the four sub range, with the contingency

:07:04.:07:08.

of ?10 billion on top of that. -- four submarines. As far as the

:07:09.:07:12.

question asked by my honourable friend, from the depths of his

:07:13.:07:16.

experience from the Public Accounts Committee, yes, we have to be eagle

:07:17.:07:20.

eyed where costs are concerned. The new conventional submarine being

:07:21.:07:27.

built, -- submarine playback, they are late, but the new successor ones

:07:28.:07:35.

cannot be late -- submarines. We need to reform the way in which the

:07:36.:07:40.

submarines are delivered to ensure the continuous sea deterrence can be

:07:41.:07:43.

maintained and to ensure the taxpayer gets proper value for

:07:44.:07:49.

money, so we are establishing a new delivery body for the success of

:07:50.:07:53.

programme and a new team at the Ministry of Defence headed by an

:07:54.:07:56.

experienced commercial specialist to act as the single sponsor for all

:07:57.:08:01.

aspects of the defence nuclear enterprise, from requirement to

:08:02.:08:09.

disposal. Yes, of course. I thank the Secretary for giving way. Does

:08:10.:08:13.

he agree with me it is not a choice if we want to keep Britain safe,

:08:14.:08:19.

between renewing our nuclear deterrent and taking the necessary

:08:20.:08:23.

action against Isil. Both are vital, and that it would be foolhardy, not

:08:24.:08:29.

to seek arrogant, to believe anyone in this House can predict the risks

:08:30.:08:34.

and threats Britain will face in the next 30 or 40 years? I could not

:08:35.:08:39.

have put that better. We tried to estimate here, in this document

:08:40.:08:44.

yesterday, our latest assessment, the threats to our country, but we

:08:45.:08:49.

should be honest and humble about this, the 2010 review did not

:08:50.:08:53.

predict Russia, the actions they would take in Crimea or Ukraine and

:08:54.:08:58.

nor did it predict the rise of Isil. We tried to predict ahead but we

:08:59.:09:01.

cannot be sure further ahead. Let me see, finally, in conclusion, that

:09:02.:09:09.

the people of Scotland voted last year to remain as part of the United

:09:10.:09:15.

Kingdom, and let me mind of the House that the deterrent, no, I have

:09:16.:09:20.

been generous in giving way, the deterrent is for the whole of the

:09:21.:09:24.

United Kingdom. The people of Scotland will benefit from the

:09:25.:09:27.

security that the deterrent provides. Parliament last fought it

:09:28.:09:33.

on Trident by a majority, to support Trident, by a majority earlier this

:09:34.:09:48.

year -- last voted. It bought on the principle of continuous sea

:09:49.:09:50.

deterrence and the plans for the successor, today, this afternoon, we

:09:51.:09:57.

face the SNP motion -- the vote earlier this year. This is not a

:09:58.:10:05.

time to gamble with our security. It is a time, on the contrary, to

:10:06.:10:09.

safeguard this generation and generations to come. Let me put this

:10:10.:10:15.

as simply as the honourable member just put it to me. If you can be

:10:16.:10:20.

sure, on either side of this House, that there will be no nuclear threat

:10:21.:10:26.

that will emerge to this country throughout the 2030s, the 2040s, and

:10:27.:10:33.

the 2050s, if you can be absolutely sure of that then vote for the

:10:34.:10:40.

motion today. I cannot be sure... I cannot be prepared on this side of

:10:41.:10:43.

the House to gamble with our nation's security. Toby Perkins.

:10:44.:10:53.

Thank you, Madame Deputy Speaker. A great pleasure to respond to the

:10:54.:10:57.

Opposition Day Debate on the renewal of Trident. Clearly this comes at a

:10:58.:11:00.

time the Labour Party is conducting a review of our defence policies in

:11:01.:11:05.

general and our approach to Trident in particular. The decision which

:11:06.:11:08.

Parliament will make in the coming months regarding the future of the

:11:09.:11:11.

UK's nuclear deterrent is a matter of huge importance for this country.

:11:12.:11:16.

It will affect this country's defence and security strategy for

:11:17.:11:19.

decades to come and our global standing. It will affect thousands

:11:20.:11:24.

of livelihoods, as we heard, already today on the United Kingdom that

:11:25.:11:27.

depend on renewing the deterrent. It will affect the role the naked

:11:28.:11:31.

kingdom can play in the global process on disarmament and goes to

:11:32.:11:34.

the very heart -- the United Kingdom. The heart of a relationship

:11:35.:11:43.

with our Nato allies. Operation Relentless, the name for the current

:11:44.:11:47.

at sea deterrent currently undertaken by the Vanguard class of

:11:48.:11:51.

sub breeds has been patrolling since April 1969 and the British people,

:11:52.:11:56.

rightly, do not expect parliamentarians to take such a

:11:57.:11:58.

decision to end continue such controls like that -- of

:11:59.:12:04.

submarines. They recognise it is complex and a fine political balance

:12:05.:12:09.

as well as the question of military effectiveness. There are strong

:12:10.:12:12.

views on each side of this debate and we have utmost respect for all

:12:13.:12:16.

of those deeply held views, but let me be absolutely clear, this issue

:12:17.:12:21.

is too important, for the future of our country, for members in this

:12:22.:12:27.

House to play party political games with it. We all know the reason the

:12:28.:12:32.

SNP have scheduled this half-day debate is not to influence

:12:33.:12:35.

Government policy. There was in fact not one single to the -- single

:12:36.:12:43.

question to the Government, but it was to score cheap political points.

:12:44.:12:46.

If anyone seriously believe what we would hear today was a serious case

:12:47.:12:50.

brought forward by the SNP, all they had to say, all they had to do was

:12:51.:12:55.

to witness the speech made by the honourable gentleman for Argyle, who

:12:56.:12:59.

could barely contain his delight in the fact that the Labour Party were

:13:00.:13:03.

reviewing their position. There was no serious contribution to the

:13:04.:13:07.

debate about Trident, no serious challenge to the Government, but

:13:08.:13:11.

this is simply cheap political point scoring in exactly the same way they

:13:12.:13:17.

did in the Opposition Day Debate back in January. As we are

:13:18.:13:23.

conducting our... I have just said, in a moment.

:13:24.:13:30.

Border! We don't have that in the chamber.

:13:31.:13:37.

That's enough. The honourable gentleman does not wish to give way

:13:38.:13:43.

at the moment, I am sure he will, in June course. Mr Perkins. Indeed, I

:13:44.:13:50.

will. Once again, they are laughing, they think this is a highly

:13:51.:13:56.

hilarious debate. This is not highly hilarious for the people whose lives

:13:57.:14:00.

depend on it. And it is not highly hilarious for those who rely on the

:14:01.:14:05.

Nato umbrella for their security and the nuclear deterrent. It is not

:14:06.:14:07.

appropriate to vote on this motion when we are still conducting our

:14:08.:14:12.

review, this is political point scoring. On the subject of cheap

:14:13.:14:16.

political point scoring, I give way to the honourable gentleman. Labour

:14:17.:14:22.

are in a total and utter shambles and mess with Trident. If the result

:14:23.:14:26.

of this review being undertaken by the former Mayor of London

:14:27.:14:29.

recommends that the Labour Party support their leader when it comes

:14:30.:14:33.

to unilateral disarmament, will be rest of the Labour Party back him in

:14:34.:14:38.

that? I will return in more detail to the we the review is put

:14:39.:14:44.

together. To say an issue of this, where there are clearly differences

:14:45.:14:48.

of opinion, for different people to be involved in, who have a

:14:49.:14:51.

difference of opinion, is a shambles. It is a nonsense. It is

:14:52.:14:55.

clear that the Labour Party are discussing this position. We will

:14:56.:15:00.

listen to a variety of views. At the end, we will come to a conclusion. I

:15:01.:15:05.

give way. I am grateful to the honourable gentleman. Many on this

:15:06.:15:08.

side of the house would be sympathetic to the serious way that

:15:09.:15:13.

he is tackling this matter. But, will he undertake to come back to

:15:14.:15:18.

the house, when the review is complete, in order to clarify for

:15:19.:15:22.

the nation watched the position is of the Labour Party? Clearly, it is

:15:23.:15:28.

something where there cannot be fudging, you are in or out when it

:15:29.:15:33.

comes to nuclear deterrent. -- to the nation what the position. I will

:15:34.:15:37.

be able to offer more clarity very shortly. The motion that the SNP

:15:38.:15:43.

brought forward, as the honourable gentleman was honest enough to

:15:44.:15:47.

admit, has not been without problems. The original motion, which

:15:48.:15:50.

each one of them signed without noticing the mistake, said that

:15:51.:15:58.

Trident shouldn't be removed. Subsequently, they discovered that

:15:59.:16:03.

they had made that mistake. As the Secretary of State made clear, the

:16:04.:16:06.

motion talks about Trident. The decision we are facing at the moment

:16:07.:16:10.

is about the renewal of the Vanguard class of submarines. Not about

:16:11.:16:15.

renewing Trident. Important details like that may be lost to them. As

:16:16.:16:21.

indeed, was apparently the outcome of the Scottish independence

:16:22.:16:24.

referendum, which the majority of Scots voted in favour of staying in

:16:25.:16:29.

the United Kingdom. Which they will be aware, involves being a part of

:16:30.:16:36.

having Trident. I will give way. I am somewhat perplexed at this

:16:37.:16:39.

assertion that we shouldn't be discussing Trident. This debate is

:16:40.:16:42.

about Trident. It is vital we understand the position of the

:16:43.:16:46.

members on this very important issue. Once again, it makes it clear

:16:47.:16:52.

that this is about the Labour Party's position. I have attempted

:16:53.:16:57.

to clarify the difference between the decision this council will face

:16:58.:17:00.

shortly at the wording of the motion that is in front of us. I will

:17:01.:17:07.

happily give way. I thank my honourable friend for giving way.

:17:08.:17:11.

Does he share my disappointment, that even though the SNP called this

:17:12.:17:15.

debate, they failed to set up their position either on how they would

:17:16.:17:19.

replace jobs or how they would dispose of the weapons. Shouldn't

:17:20.:17:23.

this debate be about their policy, since they called this debate

:17:24.:17:24.

today? I have to say Madam Deputy Speaker,

:17:25.:17:32.

for the second time today, she has hit the nail on the head. As a whole

:17:33.:17:38.

series of inconsistencies about the SNP's position. Not only today. We

:17:39.:17:41.

heard that the decision to go forward with Trident would be

:17:42.:17:47.

choosing to go forward with that. Buying nuclear capabilities on the

:17:48.:17:51.

backs of the poor. Only half an hour before that, we heard them saying

:17:52.:17:55.

that all the money being spent on Trident would instead be spent on

:17:56.:17:58.

conventional weapons. Either the money they are saving for Trident

:17:59.:18:02.

will be spent on hospitals and schools and transport or it will be

:18:03.:18:06.

spent on conventional forces. No one can blame the honourable gentleman

:18:07.:18:11.

for being confused, the history of the SNP has a history of confusion.

:18:12.:18:16.

2012, the honourable gentleman for Gordon said the savings would be

:18:17.:18:22.

spent on conventional defence. But, he and Nicola Sturgeon was saying in

:18:23.:18:26.

2014 they would spend the money saved on Trident on childcare. Good

:18:27.:18:32.

morning Scotland, 2012, it would be spent on youth unemployment and

:18:33.:18:38.

colleges. Scottish Parliament motion in 2012 is that it should be spent

:18:39.:18:43.

on welfare. A whole variety and history of the Scottish National

:18:44.:18:45.

Party utterly baffled about what this money will be spent on. I thank

:18:46.:18:51.

you for giving way. It would be interesting to hear, I was being

:18:52.:18:54.

heckled that this magic money tree could be spent on tax credits.

:18:55.:18:59.

Another one to add to his long list. I will put it on my list at the end

:19:00.:19:04.

if he doesn't mind. LAUGHTER It is an important point. We are

:19:05.:19:08.

having a laugh but the truth is that people deserve clarity on what is

:19:09.:19:12.

being said in this house, this is a matter of the utmost importance. I

:19:13.:19:16.

will make progress but I will happily take more interventions

:19:17.:19:21.

later. The honourable gentleman said a moment ago that Labour's position

:19:22.:19:27.

needs to be clarified. As agreed by the national policy Forum in in 2014

:19:28.:19:30.

and approved by the Labour party conference in Brighton, we are

:19:31.:19:34.

committed to a minimal credible nuclear deterrent at sea. That is

:19:35.:19:41.

the policy that was in the manifesto and all Labour Party members fought

:19:42.:19:47.

the 2015 general election on. We are proud of the previous Labour

:19:48.:19:51.

government's approach on disarmament. We made huge progress

:19:52.:19:55.

on nuclear disarmament through international frameworks and almost

:19:56.:19:59.

half the number of operationally available warheads. Reduced the

:20:00.:20:06.

number of deployed warheads. We scrapped the tactical nuclear

:20:07.:20:10.

weapons in 1998, making the UK the only recognised nuclear armed NPT to

:20:11.:20:15.

possess just one nuclear system. That is simply a declaration of

:20:16.:20:20.

fact. Let me finish on this and I will happily give way. The member

:20:21.:20:23.

for Islington North has recently been elected to the leader of the

:20:24.:20:27.

Labour Party and his views on the subject are well known and he

:20:28.:20:32.

appointed the honourable friends to be Secretary of State for Defence.

:20:33.:20:35.

Knowing her clear position on this question. Thank you for the way you

:20:36.:20:41.

are conducting this part. We'll be member indicated in terms of the

:20:42.:20:45.

review that his party is carrying out, consider the invitations for

:20:46.:20:51.

HMS Clyde, the submarine base at Faslane, the Royal Naval armaments

:20:52.:20:55.

depot and the implications for Plymouth? I can absolutely give him

:20:56.:21:04.

that assurance. This is very much a question about our military

:21:05.:21:09.

capability. We can never removed the fact that this is a very important

:21:10.:21:16.

economic regeneration question. As my right honourable friend for

:21:17.:21:21.

Islington and Shadow Secretary of State for Defence on all aspects of

:21:22.:21:26.

our defence policy including our nuclear deterrent, she has been

:21:27.:21:30.

clear and she will read an evidence -based review in an open-minded and

:21:31.:21:34.

inclusive and transparent way. It will investigate the issues that has

:21:35.:21:37.

been reviewed on many occasions and searches for new relevant evidence.

:21:38.:21:43.

I would be grateful if you could clarify for the house, you are doing

:21:44.:21:49.

something important. Explaining how this review will operate. When he

:21:50.:21:55.

says his honourable friend Shadow Secretary of State will lead the

:21:56.:21:58.

view, will that be with Ken Livingstone or without him? If you

:21:59.:22:01.

had been slightly more patient I would have got precisely to that

:22:02.:22:08.

point. Bear with me. I will enlighten him. My honourable friend

:22:09.:22:16.

will lead that review. The next sentence in fact. As is standard for

:22:17.:22:20.

policy commissions, it will feed into the National policy Forum and a

:22:21.:22:24.

member of the National executive committee, Ken Livingstone, will

:22:25.:22:27.

convene that with you as per half of the NSC. It will be led by my

:22:28.:22:33.

honourable friend, the member for Garston and Halewood.

:22:34.:22:37.

Let me make progress, there are a lot of people who want to contribute

:22:38.:22:43.

to this debate. I am keen to give them the opportunity to do so. It is

:22:44.:22:47.

really important for our politics and all those on both sides of the

:22:48.:22:51.

debate that we embrace the opportunity to debate the cases for

:22:52.:22:56.

and against. Politics is changing. There is a mood for more

:22:57.:23:00.

transparency, not just in our party but society as a whole. In the

:23:01.:23:04.

Labour Party will welcome this opportunity. Assuming a policy of

:23:05.:23:09.

multilateral, not unilateral disarmament has been the major

:23:10.:23:12.

position for politics in 30 years. Many of these issues haven't been

:23:13.:23:16.

the subject of widespread and inclusive debates. We welcome this

:23:17.:23:20.

opportunity. As someone who willingly support the policy that

:23:21.:23:22.

the Labour Party for the last general election on, I say that all

:23:23.:23:26.

of us who support maintaining a nuclear presence should not be

:23:27.:23:29.

afraid to allow open and honest debate on this important issue. I

:23:30.:23:34.

will crack on. There are a lot of people who want to contribute and I

:23:35.:23:38.

will try and take some more towards the end. They produce beta, it will

:23:39.:23:43.

be ludicrous for me to pretend they're not differences of opinion

:23:44.:23:46.

within the Labour Party and wider party about whether this is the

:23:47.:23:52.

right policy. The National party conference and forum decide what the

:23:53.:23:55.

Labour Party's approach will be in the future. This year's Labour Party

:23:56.:23:59.

conference concluded that there were more pressing contemporary motions

:24:00.:24:06.

to debate. The National policy Forum report reaffirmed the party's

:24:07.:24:09.

support for the continuous at sea deterrent. I will give way briefly.

:24:10.:24:14.

If the honourable gentleman mentions the Labour Party UK conference, but

:24:15.:24:19.

he does not mention the Labour Party's Scottish conference, which

:24:20.:24:24.

voted against Trident. Does that count for absolutely nothing? As

:24:25.:24:27.

your boss told her Labour Party colleagues? Scotland just doesn't

:24:28.:24:29.

matter, does it? Those kind of comments are utterly

:24:30.:24:37.

offensive. LAUGHTER The truth of the matter... Once

:24:38.:24:41.

again, we have an important matter here, people are watching and

:24:42.:24:44.

people's jobs are on the line and the SNP are laughing their way

:24:45.:24:49.

through this debate. The truth is that Scottish Labour Party had a

:24:50.:24:51.

vote at their conference. Of course that will be considered as part of

:24:52.:24:55.

many contributions that are made to this debate. The views of many

:24:56.:24:59.

people and a variety of views will be considered. That vote that was

:25:00.:25:04.

taking place, the views of individual members, will be

:25:05.:25:07.

considered as part of that. I will give way to my honourable friend.

:25:08.:25:08.

Thank you. As a neighbouring MP, he will

:25:09.:25:18.

understand how important the Trident contract successor programme

:25:19.:25:21.

contract will be to places like Sheffield in terms of jobs and

:25:22.:25:25.

supply chain. But the tone of the debate today is important. The

:25:26.:25:30.

importance of the debate but the tone is important. It is a UK matter

:25:31.:25:36.

and it deserves a focus which is UK orientated, and not on a narrow

:25:37.:25:38.

nationalist outlook. My honourable friend... My

:25:39.:25:49.

honourable friend is absolutely right to say that there is a real

:25:50.:25:57.

desire and real importance in this project to the supply chain right

:25:58.:26:00.

across the country, not just in the areas where it will be built.

:26:01.:26:07.

Absolutely this is a decision for the whole of the UK and it is one

:26:08.:26:13.

that we will all be responsible for and all have a opportunity to

:26:14.:26:19.

benefit from. In light of the lengthy procurement process required

:26:20.:26:23.

for complex weapons systems, parliament voted in 2007 to maintain

:26:24.:26:27.

the strategic nuclear deterrent beyond the lifetime of the existing

:26:28.:26:31.

system. The Secretary of State spoke in more detail about some of the

:26:32.:26:36.

history, but we should also remember that there are 28 Nato Alliance

:26:37.:26:39.

members who are offered protection by each other. Our contribution is a

:26:40.:26:44.

vital reassurance which was brought home to meet on a recent trip to

:26:45.:26:48.

Brussels to meet with Nato allies. On the subject of unilateral

:26:49.:26:58.

weapons, there is no guarantee that if Britain and France appeared to be

:26:59.:27:01.

weak in their contribution, other countries couldn't decide that they

:27:02.:27:05.

were not secure any longer and wouldn't look to procure their own

:27:06.:27:10.

deterrence. That could lead to an increase in the number of nuclear

:27:11.:27:18.

states. Today's events, the shooting down of a Russian aeroplanes

:27:19.:27:23.

apparently by Turkish forces, should underline for us how pressures that

:27:24.:27:29.

includes connection -- interconnection and mutuality is.

:27:30.:27:35.

And how important it is that the UK sends a message to those who

:27:36.:27:38.

threaten us that we resolute and trustworthy. Can I say I respect to

:27:39.:27:44.

lead the way in which he is addressing this issue. But can he

:27:45.:27:50.

talk, when he talks about the Labour Party reviewing its policies, can he

:27:51.:27:54.

addressed the very worrying point is that whatever the outcome of the

:27:55.:27:58.

review, the leader of the Labour Party has made it clear that under

:27:59.:28:03.

no circumstances would he use the deterrent. Therefore, has the policy

:28:04.:28:08.

not been decided, even if the Labour Party decides to go ahead, the

:28:09.:28:13.

leader has said he will not do so and therefore denying its potency as

:28:14.:28:18.

a deterrent. I understand what's the honourable gentleman is saying, but

:28:19.:28:22.

I have to say that this is a project that will take place and will be

:28:23.:28:30.

valuable to our country over 25, 30, many more years, and I think that as

:28:31.:28:34.

a result, when you are making the significant infrastructure

:28:35.:28:41.

decisions, the day to day of what is occurring is actually less important

:28:42.:28:46.

than the longer term capability that you have. He has been so persistent

:28:47.:28:54.

that I will give way. Earlier in his remarks about this review, he said

:28:55.:28:59.

it would be co-convened by Ken Livingstone. Can I ask you to

:29:00.:29:03.

clarify exactly what he means by court convened? What is happening

:29:04.:29:09.

here is we have a review being taken place that is being led by the

:29:10.:29:13.

shadow Secretary of State for Defence. Without going into too many

:29:14.:29:23.

details about Labour Party processors -- processes... The

:29:24.:29:29.

member of the National executive committee is involved in supporting

:29:30.:29:36.

that process and that is the role that Ken Livingstone is going to be

:29:37.:29:40.

playing. As I have said a moment ago, this is not the first time that

:29:41.:29:46.

the SNP has brought this question to the house, but they will know that

:29:47.:29:50.

their own policy has failed to stand up to scrutiny. The White Paper that

:29:51.:29:56.

preceded their failed referendum campaign provided no cost for

:29:57.:30:02.

personnel are budgets... I am not giving way. I will complete my

:30:03.:30:06.

speech. We listen to the gentleman for quite some length and I'd still

:30:07.:30:10.

do not do what he thinks. The White Paper failed to confront the

:30:11.:30:16.

contradictions of the SNP and their desire to join Nato, to remove all

:30:17.:30:23.

nuclear weapons from Scottish soil. It was very clear in his

:30:24.:30:27.

contribution that he had no clear understanding of what they were

:30:28.:30:29.

signing up to when they said they were going to join Nato. It was

:30:30.:30:33.

clear they thought they were going to be a part of this alliance but

:30:34.:30:38.

somehow removed from the policies that Nato have. Does the honourable

:30:39.:30:43.

gentleman believe that there is no such thing as a non-nuclear member

:30:44.:30:47.

of Nato and does he not understand that as I pointed out, the last two

:30:48.:30:51.

general secretaries of NATO come from those non-nuclear countries of

:30:52.:30:59.

Denmark and Norway? It is not a case of my opinion. It is a matter of

:31:00.:31:04.

simple fact that NATO is a nuclear alliance. Membership of Nato, which

:31:05.:31:08.

the SNP supports, requires allies to be members of the Nato nuclear

:31:09.:31:12.

alliance and to sit on the appropriate committees, so the fact

:31:13.:31:16.

of the matter is that an independent Scotland that was a part of NATO

:31:17.:31:19.

would be covered by the nuclear umbrella and I suspect if I am

:31:20.:31:29.

entirely frank I suspect it is because they are covered that they

:31:30.:31:34.

want to be a part of it, to try to give reassurance to their own

:31:35.:31:37.

members, so it is not a matter of my own opinion, it is a simple

:31:38.:31:42.

statement of fact. On the back of yesterday's FDS or -- SDSR the

:31:43.:32:00.

Government needs to give the latest figures of warhead refurbishment and

:32:01.:32:03.

can the Minister confirm that the Treasury are to take the lead

:32:04.:32:06.

regarding the procurement of the Vanguard successor class and can he

:32:07.:32:10.

explain why in setting up the mechanics of that arrangement, can

:32:11.:32:14.

he say what he thinks that says about the level of confidence the

:32:15.:32:21.

Chancellor has in his department. Was this decision made with the

:32:22.:32:24.

support of the secretary of state and if so why did he think it was

:32:25.:32:27.

better handled outside of his department and finally can he

:32:28.:32:30.

clarify the timescales of the successor programme and what

:32:31.:32:33.

criteria have the decided to further extend the lives of the existing

:32:34.:32:37.

fleet? What is the strategy underpinning this decision, and most

:32:38.:32:40.

importantly, can the department resolutely guarantee that this

:32:41.:32:42.

decision will not adversely of effect the maintenance of art

:32:43.:32:48.

continuous at the deterrent? I hope that the minister who is in his

:32:49.:32:52.

place will have the opportunity to respond to those points at the end.

:32:53.:32:58.

These are points that you might reasonably have expected the people

:32:59.:33:00.

bringing the debate, who had much longer to scrutinise the Government

:33:01.:33:04.

on, but of course are only interested in highlighting the

:33:05.:33:06.

difficulties that they perceive in the Labour Party. In summary, the

:33:07.:33:11.

Labour Party's review under the stewardship of my honourable friend

:33:12.:33:15.

from Garston will consider any new evidence, it will examining the

:33:16.:33:19.

views of people from across the spectrum and will allow people from

:33:20.:33:23.

across the party, the trade union movement, and in communities right

:33:24.:33:25.

across the land to engage in the debate. It will learn about the

:33:26.:33:30.

facts, it will debunk the myths as part of the national conversation.

:33:31.:33:34.

We will not strengthen the debates, we will relish them. This is an

:33:35.:33:37.

issue on which we believe there needs to be more like ambushed

:33:38.:33:44.

heat. -- is more like an less heat. The house can be assured that when

:33:45.:33:47.

that review has been concluded, the Labour Party will have a position

:33:48.:33:50.

that has been the subject of the widest public debates in the history

:33:51.:33:54.

of military decision-making and will be able to real confidence that the

:33:55.:33:59.

decision reached is one the party and indeed the country can support

:34:00.:34:06.

with confidence. Order. A great many people have indicated to me that

:34:07.:34:08.

they would like to speak in this debate and the house will be aware

:34:09.:34:11.

that there is another important debate to follow. I therefore have

:34:12.:34:14.

to put a time limit on that bench speeches of six minutes, starting

:34:15.:34:19.

with immediate effect as we hear from Mrs Cheryl Murray. Thank you

:34:20.:34:26.

very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. Members will know of my special

:34:27.:34:31.

interest in the Royal Navy, as the mother of a serving Royal Navy

:34:32.:34:34.

warfare officer, although I am absolutely sure that my daughter

:34:35.:34:38.

would want to stick to surface ships and she wouldn't want to serve in

:34:39.:34:43.

any of the four Vanguard class submarines. I am really pleased that

:34:44.:34:48.

the honourable member for Glasgow North has joined the family of

:34:49.:34:52.

people in this house who have connections with the Royal Navy and

:34:53.:34:57.

I hope that she will make a contribution to many debates. It is

:34:58.:35:05.

now over 70 years since these bombs were used in anger, and we must

:35:06.:35:09.

remember that this is not new technology, but the threat is real

:35:10.:35:14.

and that is why we must have a credible nuclear deterrent, that

:35:15.:35:21.

others believe will be used if we are attacked. A continuous at sea

:35:22.:35:29.

nuclear deterrent is essential because that deterrent must have two

:35:30.:35:35.

also be credible. It gives the UK the ability to respond instantly

:35:36.:35:42.

from a movable location, which assists security against any

:35:43.:35:45.

possible threats. Throughout my life, no matter if we have had a

:35:46.:35:50.

Labour or Conservative Government, I believe we have had a credible

:35:51.:35:53.

deterrent because we had the leadership to back it up. The

:35:54.:36:02.

honourable member and many of her colleagues have criticised the

:36:03.:36:07.

Leader of the Opposition because presumably if you promise not to use

:36:08.:36:11.

it, it is not a deterrent. Did the honourable member tellers in what

:36:12.:36:16.

circumstances she would in all conscience launch an attack that

:36:17.:36:21.

would annihilate tens of thousands of innocent civilians? The point is,

:36:22.:36:26.

if you have the deterrent and you lead people to think you can use it,

:36:27.:36:32.

then that is what the deterrent is about. It is no good publicising the

:36:33.:36:38.

fact that you are never going to fire it. That is a useless

:36:39.:36:45.

deterrent. Thank you for giving weight. May be concluded in simpler

:36:46.:36:49.

terms since they are struggling to understand what he deterrent as,

:36:50.:36:53.

maybe we could use an analogy with a burglar alarm. You have a burglar

:36:54.:36:57.

alarm which you turn on when you go out because you hope that it will

:36:58.:37:01.

put people off from breaking in. We have a nuclear deterrent which is

:37:02.:37:03.

there when we go to bed to keep our there when we go to bed to keep our

:37:04.:37:08.

country safe. We need also to remember that the UK's nuclear

:37:09.:37:13.

deterrent contributes towards our collective security as part of NATO.

:37:14.:37:22.

If the UK did not have a deterrent, NATO's collective security would be

:37:23.:37:26.

weakened, leaving the UK dependent on others, which seems to be what

:37:27.:37:31.

the party opposite are determined to want to do. I thank the member for

:37:32.:37:37.

giving weight. On the message of deterrent, does it not also mean we

:37:38.:37:41.

are the most direct threat to other states which have nuclear weapons,

:37:42.:37:44.

therefore rather than be a deterrent, we are a key target in

:37:45.:37:50.

this family of nations? A deterrent is extremely important and that is

:37:51.:37:54.

precisely what it is. It is not there to use in anger and I remind

:37:55.:38:00.

him that the words that I started with, 70 years ago, was the last

:38:01.:38:08.

time that these bombs were used in anger. Now, I speak today not just

:38:09.:38:13.

because I believe in credible nuclear deterrent, but because I do,

:38:14.:38:21.

but also because of the importance it has two my constituents. Trident

:38:22.:38:26.

has provided the massive amount of employment for my constituents in

:38:27.:38:31.

South East Cornwall. In the same way as at Faslane and Coalport provide a

:38:32.:38:36.

massive amount of employment north of the border. No, I am sorry. I

:38:37.:38:45.

have used up my time. Repair, refuelling and refit of the Vanguard

:38:46.:38:55.

class submarines is carried out at D154 in the constituency of my

:38:56.:38:59.

honourable friend the member for Plymouth, Sutton and Davenport. The

:39:00.:39:02.

expertise and experience that Davenport now has should be utilised

:39:03.:39:09.

in any future programme. As a local County Council at the time, I will

:39:10.:39:12.

never forget standing by the banks of the River Kmart -- Taymar and

:39:13.:39:23.

watching the first nuclear submarine come in for a refit, continuing to

:39:24.:39:27.

refuel and refit the submarines is likely to safeguard around 2000

:39:28.:39:33.

jobs. I fully support the Government in its global -- in its goal is to

:39:34.:39:40.

have the successor submarines replace the existing Vanguard class

:39:41.:39:44.

ones and also to have a credible nuclear deterrent to protect this

:39:45.:39:49.

nation for future decades. John Woodcock. Thank you Madam Deputy

:39:50.:39:56.

Speaker and what a pleasure it is to follow such a thoughtful and well

:39:57.:39:58.

informed speech from the honourable lady. Madam Deputy Speaker, I wish

:39:59.:40:04.

you had been in for the start of this today. What a shambles it was.

:40:05.:40:08.

Just let me give you, for background, the context. We have a

:40:09.:40:15.

party over their who is frankly presiding over the mismanagement of

:40:16.:40:21.

the core activities of Government in its nation in health and education,

:40:22.:40:29.

which is frankly a disgrace. Let me just tell the house the dreadful

:40:30.:40:37.

mess that they are making of health and education because there is a

:40:38.:40:42.

need for this. If you will just take a seat for a moment. Let me just

:40:43.:40:50.

explain. The honourable gentleman has

:40:51.:41:01.

indicated he will give way shortly. Mr John Woodcock. A point of order.

:41:02.:41:12.

Point of order, sir. The honourable member said he is talking about

:41:13.:41:20.

health and education. It is not applicable to today's motion. I

:41:21.:41:26.

thank the honourable gentleman for his point of order. I am listening

:41:27.:41:30.

carefully to what the honourable gentleman is saying and I will

:41:31.:41:34.

decide if he has strayed from the motion. At the moment my

:41:35.:41:38.

interpretation is that the honourable gentleman is introducing

:41:39.:41:42.

his speech and he will come to the precise point of the motion very

:41:43.:41:50.

shortly. Mr Woodcock. They do not like people holding them to account

:41:51.:41:56.

for the terrible failure. I was just explaining the disgraceful mess that

:41:57.:42:01.

they are making of skills in Scotland where the poorest children

:42:02.:42:06.

are being left behind. If you would not mind. I would have been happy to

:42:07.:42:13.

take every single one of you robots, getting your instructions. I would

:42:14.:42:18.

have been happy, but the thing is, Madame Deputy Speaker, that the

:42:19.:42:24.

proposers of your motion refused point-blank to take me... Point of

:42:25.:42:34.

order, Mr Nicholson. Can we have some clarification on whether the

:42:35.:42:39.

charming expression robot is parliamentary language or not? Yes,

:42:40.:42:48.

Mr Nicholson, I was just turning over in my mind whether the

:42:49.:42:53.

description robot for a member of this house would be considered to be

:42:54.:43:00.

derogatory. I have come to the conclusion that in some

:43:01.:43:04.

circumstances it might and in some it might not. For the moment I am

:43:05.:43:14.

concluding for my own peace of mind that the honourable gentleman was

:43:15.:43:19.

thinking of a high functioning, intelligent robot and therefore, for

:43:20.:43:25.

the moment, I will not call him to order for the use of the word. But I

:43:26.:43:31.

am sure the House will be warned that we should be very careful in

:43:32.:43:39.

our use of language. Mr Woodcock. Point of order, Mr Paisley. I got

:43:40.:43:48.

the honourable gentleman called them Roberts and anyone from Scotland

:43:49.:43:52.

should not mind being called Robert the Bruce. As to Mr Paisley's point

:43:53.:44:00.

of order, every elder male member of my own family for the last 100 years

:44:01.:44:06.

has been called Robert, it must be a good thing. Point of order. Given

:44:07.:44:13.

colleagues from the SNP will miss report this on twitter, with the use

:44:14.:44:22.

of cider in that be acceptable? We will have no more points of order on

:44:23.:44:27.

this issue, any term that is considered in any way derogatory

:44:28.:44:32.

will not be allowed and I will be listening very carefully for the

:44:33.:44:39.

rest of the debate. Mr Woodcock. I am very happy to refer to them as

:44:40.:44:42.

honourable robots, if that is any help. But robots they are, following

:44:43.:44:48.

the instructions and an almost never be before seeing unity. I was

:44:49.:45:05.

discussing the failure hospitals over which they are presiding.

:45:06.:45:09.

Instead of dealing with that they seek this Parliamentary distraction

:45:10.:45:13.

of a debate on Trident. We are not going to fall for it. I will give

:45:14.:45:21.

way. I must say I appreciate the fact you have given way to me

:45:22.:45:28.

because you should have given way earlier in the opening debate. You

:45:29.:45:33.

have set the context, but would it surprise the honourable gentleman

:45:34.:45:38.

that today in another place in the Northern Ireland assembly Sinn

:45:39.:45:42.

Fein, who butchered and bombed people across the entire United

:45:43.:45:46.

Kingdom have a similar motion calling for the cancellation of

:45:47.:45:50.

Trident also? Would he like to reflect on that? It is something the

:45:51.:45:56.

party may wish to reflect on one day when they are winding up. I will go

:45:57.:46:02.

back to them in a moment. If I could just employ the Minister in

:46:03.:46:07.

responding, because I was not able to intervene for a second time with

:46:08.:46:11.

the Secretary of State. If he wants to intervene, it would be helpful if

:46:12.:46:17.

he could make clear that the change in management structure for this

:46:18.:46:21.

programme will in no way affect the superb workforce in

:46:22.:46:24.

Barrow-in-Furness, in Derby and in so many constituencies around the

:46:25.:46:31.

country. This is a measure that has been long discussed and is meant to

:46:32.:46:36.

get increased effectiveness out of the programme. If he could also in

:46:37.:46:42.

his winding up give us a comment on what the extra pressure which may be

:46:43.:46:49.

placed on an already ageing Vanguard class by the further delay and

:46:50.:46:53.

whether the Royal Navy and his department have done the scoping

:46:54.:47:00.

that this extra delay will engender? This is a debate about the

:47:01.:47:07.

party next to me. They seem perfectly happy to cancel, to scrap,

:47:08.:47:20.

10,000 jobs in Faslane. If you would just sit down. All just sit down. I

:47:21.:47:27.

will explain to them. I would have been happy to take them all, but the

:47:28.:47:37.

honourable chief robot refused to take me even once. I am not taking

:47:38.:47:43.

them at all. They would be happy to throw on the unemployment

:47:44.:47:47.

scrapheap... I am not going to give weight to any of them. Not at all,

:47:48.:47:57.

no matter how many times they asked. -- give way. Let me read very

:47:58.:48:01.

quickly in the remaining time I have a list of some of the constituencies

:48:02.:48:07.

that are affected in Scotland by the submarine supply chain. Aberdeen

:48:08.:48:15.

North, Coatbridge, Bellshill, Cumbernauld, Dunfermline, East

:48:16.:48:21.

Kilbride, central Glasgow, is Glasgow, Kirkcaldy, Cowdenbeath,

:48:22.:48:29.

Paisley, Midlothian, West Aberdeenshire, West Dunbartonshire.

:48:30.:48:36.

All of those constituencies, they would throw their constituents on

:48:37.:48:42.

the unemployment scrapheap. I am not going to get any more time. I want

:48:43.:48:48.

to finish on this argument that he has made very clearly of it being

:48:49.:48:56.

morally indefensible for a state to possess nuclear weapons. I do not

:48:57.:49:00.

agree with him at all because they are there to prevent nuclear weapons

:49:01.:49:05.

being fired. If they think it is morally indefensible, if they think

:49:06.:49:12.

it is repugnant, how is it that they are happy to be under the nuclear

:49:13.:49:17.

umbrella of another nation? This is not a case of other Nato members not

:49:18.:49:25.

having nuclear weapons. I do not think I can use the word hypocrisy.

:49:26.:49:33.

It is a rank wrong that they feel able to shelter when they are happy

:49:34.:49:38.

to name call the rest of the United Kingdom for wanting to keep nuclear

:49:39.:49:43.

weapons. In fact, the question here is not do we not not go ahead with

:49:44.:49:50.

Trident? The votes for that I nailed on. This will go past the point of

:49:51.:49:56.

no return. The real question in this debate is where in which one of

:49:57.:50:01.

those members' constituencies is the nuclear toxic waste that they have

:50:02.:50:05.

admitted they would take. Where is it going to go? Which plays in

:50:06.:50:12.

Scotland? This is an extremely important debate and already this

:50:13.:50:16.

afternoon we have heard some errant wrongs in the nature of our Nato

:50:17.:50:21.

alliance. I hope you will forgive me for correcting them. Nato is a

:50:22.:50:28.

nuclear pact, Nato demands nuclear capability, Nato requires states to

:50:29.:50:33.

allow deployable nuclear weapons. It is simply incorrect to say that any

:50:34.:50:38.

Nato member states can be a member with that tolerating, allowing and

:50:39.:50:44.

even permitting the deployment of nuclear weapons from its states.

:50:45.:50:49.

Germany has artillery that is nuclear capable, Belgium has

:50:50.:50:52.

aircraft, Denmark has runways for it. Denmark has submarines based

:50:53.:51:01.

sport it in Danish waters. Every Nato state is nuclear capable and

:51:02.:51:06.

allows the firing of nuclear weapons from its territory. That is part of

:51:07.:51:12.

the 1949 lives. If you do not like it, do not sign it. It is very

:51:13.:51:18.

clear. And the reason Nato countries signed this alliance is for a good

:51:19.:51:25.

reason. It is because nuclear weapons work. Since 1949 no nuclear

:51:26.:51:29.

states have fought each other and no nuclear states have gone to war in

:51:30.:51:35.

any way. Why? Because nuclear weapons are utterly awful. Does he

:51:36.:51:41.

agree with many venerable academics who believe that if it had not been

:51:42.:51:47.

for nuclear weapons, it is almost certain that in the Cold War period

:51:48.:51:51.

we would have had a third conventional world war which would

:51:52.:51:54.

have been far more bloody and brutal than the first and second? I agree

:51:55.:52:02.

absolutely. The appalling nature of nuclear weapons is what keeps us

:52:03.:52:07.

safe. The very fact they are an existential threat to so many

:52:08.:52:11.

regimes and dreadful leaders around the world is exactly what puts them

:52:12.:52:17.

off. A few bunkers and no society could survive a nuclear attack and

:52:18.:52:22.

that is why they work. Nobody wishes to face them. I will give way. He is

:52:23.:52:28.

giving a very powerful speech, would he agree that Nato is about making

:52:29.:52:37.

an attack either conventional or nuclear on its members absolutely

:52:38.:52:43.

futile? The honourable member is absolutely right and in highlighting

:52:44.:52:47.

the fact that war is the real enemy, we only need look at the loss of

:52:48.:52:54.

life that war has seen in the past century. The terrible destruction

:52:55.:52:58.

led by conventional weapons that were, with great irony, stopped by

:52:59.:53:05.

the two attacks on Hiroshima. They were utterly awful and I will not in

:53:06.:53:11.

any way say that they were not. It is clear what they did was to

:53:12.:53:16.

prevent the loss of hundreds of thousands of American lives and

:53:17.:53:21.

Japanese lives as well. Prisoners of war survived those and many of our

:53:22.:53:26.

relatives survived the Second World War because those two attacks, the

:53:27.:53:32.

shop and the horror of them, ended the Second World War early and thank

:53:33.:53:35.

God it did because hundreds of thousands of lives were saved. But

:53:36.:53:43.

nuclear weapons are part of a spectrum of defence, part of

:53:44.:53:47.

everything from the infantry soldier with his bayonet right the way

:53:48.:53:49.

through to the Trident nuclear submarine. They work across the

:53:50.:53:56.

entire spectrum because it is only the range that allows her Majesty's

:53:57.:54:00.

Armed Forces of the United Kingdom to intervene at an appropriate level

:54:01.:54:07.

on each occasion. But in exactly the same way as the diplomat requires

:54:08.:54:12.

the military for his words to have credibility, so too does the soldier

:54:13.:54:16.

required the submarine to know that he will not be undermined by some

:54:17.:54:22.

attack from one of the other states which may sympathise with their

:54:23.:54:26.

enemies. I am very grateful to my honourable friend who is making a

:54:27.:54:32.

powerful contribution. In his considerable experience working in

:54:33.:54:35.

the Ministry of Defence, has he ever seen a viable reorientation of

:54:36.:54:40.

defence expenditure away from the nuclear deterrent that would give us

:54:41.:54:43.

the same level of assurance round our defence? Someone has been done

:54:44.:54:50.

at various times, but only at the basic levels. The truth is when

:54:51.:54:56.

people talk about the cost of defence, and quite rightly, and they

:54:57.:55:00.

look at the cost of the nuclear deterrent, what they rarely look at

:55:01.:55:03.

is how much would the conventional alternative cost? If you truly wish

:55:04.:55:11.

to deter and persuade an enemy that you will not be steam-rollered by

:55:12.:55:14.

their wish, you will not be blackmailed by their desires, you

:55:15.:55:18.

need to have a deterrent that allows you not to strike first, but to

:55:19.:55:25.

strike back. Nothing, no conventional force, offers the same

:55:26.:55:29.

pound for pound capability as the continuous, at sea, nuclear

:55:30.:55:35.

deterrent. That is why you may not like it, but the nuclear deterrent

:55:36.:55:42.

is the cheapest alternative. I thank the honourable gentleman. He talks a

:55:43.:55:46.

lot about the deterrent. The deterrent is not working when we

:55:47.:55:49.

have Russian submarines in our coastal waters, spotted not by

:55:50.:55:57.

maritime patrol aircraft or vessels, but by fishing boats. We are in the

:55:58.:56:01.

ridiculous situation that our deterrent is either nuke them or

:56:02.:56:06.

chased them away with these bayonets.

:56:07.:56:15.

The lady makes a factually unsound point at the factually unsound point

:56:16.:56:20.

is that our capabilities are indeed to chase them away with Hunter

:56:21.:56:24.

submarines and with the Royal Navy patrol vessels and that is exactly

:56:25.:56:27.

what they are doing, but what is most important is that when we see

:56:28.:56:31.

those Russian submarines coming towards us, we not immediately

:56:32.:56:36.

think, let us bow to Mr Putin's latest desires, let us bow towards

:56:37.:56:44.

the Kremlin's wishes. No, we think, they won't dare and we know that

:56:45.:56:50.

they won't dare and that is what guarantees as the independence of

:56:51.:56:54.

movement that we require as an active supporter of human rights and

:56:55.:56:57.

of the dignity of humanity in this world. Would you accept that the

:56:58.:57:02.

ultimate proof that they are a deterrent is the fact that while the

:57:03.:57:06.

submarines may be circling around the UK, they are not firing

:57:07.:57:12.

missiles? The honourable member is absolutely right, of course. The one

:57:13.:57:16.

last point I would like to make is that as we look around the world

:57:17.:57:20.

today and we say the real threat is of course militant Jihad -ism or

:57:21.:57:28.

something to do with the dirty bomb. Well, of course, that is true

:57:29.:57:32.

but I wonder how many members would have looked around the world 20

:57:33.:57:36.

years ago and said we have got to be worried about Isis. I wonder how

:57:37.:57:39.

many members would have looked around the world and said a

:57:40.:57:42.

resurgent Russia after the end of the Cold War... I must make

:57:43.:57:49.

progress. The problem is not going to be that Russia is going to be one

:57:50.:57:52.

of our allies as we very much hoped it would be in the 90s, but the fact

:57:53.:57:56.

that she's going to be resurgent. She would have changed one of the

:57:57.:57:59.

borders of a European country since the first time since 1945. She's

:58:00.:58:03.

going to be sponsoring militias in the UK going -- in the Ukraine. Who

:58:04.:58:13.

would have predicted this? I would wager no one and because of this

:58:14.:58:17.

inability to predict, it is essential that we here in the UK

:58:18.:58:23.

guarantee the ultimate security for us and for our children. It is not

:58:24.:58:27.

enough to wish for peace. You must work for it and you must fight for

:58:28.:58:30.

it and the nuclear deterrent is the ultimate proof that we will both

:58:31.:58:34.

work and fight for our own security. I should start by

:58:35.:58:43.

declaring an interest as a member of the Scottish CND. Like the other

:58:44.:58:49.

members of the Public Accounts Committee, has died this debate with

:58:50.:58:53.

some advantage in that we took evidence from the permanent

:58:54.:58:57.

undersecretary to the Ministry of Defence and we heard for ourselves

:58:58.:59:02.

the MoD's misgivings about Trident, about how it is unaffordable and

:59:03.:59:04.

about how would threaten spending on other equipment. We are hearing the

:59:05.:59:10.

Prime Minister's war drums beating, that he wants to open another

:59:11.:59:14.

waterfront in Syria to enter the current commitments of service

:59:15.:59:17.

personnel around the globe including you rock and Afghanistan. While we

:59:18.:59:24.

have troops engaged abroad, the MoD was telling us that the inventory of

:59:25.:59:27.

support material for the Armed Forces has been cut by a quarter in

:59:28.:59:30.

the last four years and is about to be slashed from ?30 million to less

:59:31.:59:35.

than ?10 billion by keeping what is described as the minimum amount of

:59:36.:59:41.

kit. But spending on Trident is to be protected and enhanced. We were

:59:42.:59:46.

told that a huge gap, some ?8.5 billion exist between what the

:59:47.:59:50.

generals, the admirals, in the air Chief Marshal 's say that the Armed

:59:51.:59:54.

Forces need and what is Whitehall is prepared to provide. In the words of

:59:55.:59:57.

the permanent undersecretary, a process of going through what people

:59:58.:00:00.

want and saying, I know you would like that fantastic new thing,

:00:01.:00:04.

actually what you need is this will lower the bill. So why can't the

:00:05.:00:10.

encounters will be telling the Armed Forces what they really need but

:00:11.:00:14.

spending on Trident will be sacrosanct. There will not be

:00:15.:00:17.

back-up body armour for troops on the battlefield but there will be

:00:18.:00:20.

plenty of cash for Trident. Provision of troop transport options

:00:21.:00:23.

will be a matter for Whitehall, but the transport of weapons of mass

:00:24.:00:27.

destruction cannot be questioned. I have to say, the nuclear enterprise

:00:28.:00:31.

we were told is what keeps the MoD senior civil servants awake at

:00:32.:00:34.

night. The permanent undersecretary said that the current annual running

:00:35.:00:40.

costs of Trident is in excess of ?3.5 billion. But if it is renewed,

:00:41.:00:45.

this will rise to be more than ?5 billion per year. He said that he

:00:46.:00:52.

could drive savings in other areas, but that project is a monster, I am

:00:53.:00:57.

quoting, and it is an incredibly completed area in which to try to

:00:58.:01:01.

estimate future costs. So while Trident and other unusable and

:01:02.:01:06.

abhorrent abuse of scientific discovery and human imagination can

:01:07.:01:10.

name its pride and pick the pockets of any other bodies in the MoD,

:01:11.:01:14.

other parts of the servers are resourced or started on a white win.

:01:15.:01:19.

The honourable member is very kind in giving way and I appreciate that

:01:20.:01:22.

she was in Australia at the time and indeed acting in various episodes of

:01:23.:01:28.

home and away but would she be aware that the CND during the 1970s was

:01:29.:01:33.

largely funded by the KGB as has been proven and some of these

:01:34.:01:36.

arguments that come out to sound a little hollow when they are made

:01:37.:01:40.

with the Castlebar enemies. I think that is a very amusing intervention

:01:41.:01:43.

given that I am mentally quoting from the MoD's so-called chief

:01:44.:01:51.

executive. Really, comments about me. That is not worthy of this

:01:52.:01:56.

place. The air crews that the Prime Minister wants in the Syrians guide

:01:57.:02:03.

can't be sure of a reliable surprise of spare parts for their planes but

:02:04.:02:07.

Trident will always have whatever it needs. In the midst of that mess,

:02:08.:02:13.

there is actually another insult as the MoD outsources logistics and

:02:14.:02:17.

supply for the Armed Forces to an American firm that started out

:02:18.:02:22.

providing advice to the American defence industry. Those of us who

:02:23.:02:24.

campaigned in the independence referendum will recall being told

:02:25.:02:28.

that no vital pieces of defence infrastructure are provided by

:02:29.:02:30.

companies from outwith your borders. How things change and yet stay so

:02:31.:02:37.

much the same. We might want to take note of the legal position as well.

:02:38.:02:43.

My constituent, Lord Murray, a former Lord Advocate for Scotland

:02:44.:02:47.

and a respected legal figure has offered the opinion that nuclear

:02:48.:02:49.

weapons are illegal under international law. In light of what

:02:50.:02:57.

the honourable member was saying about Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Lord

:02:58.:03:01.

Murray was a serving soldier preparing to attack Japanese

:03:02.:03:05.

positions when the first atomic bomb was dropped in Hiroshima 70 years

:03:06.:03:09.

ago and he thinks that may well have saved his life. However, he formed

:03:10.:03:13.

the opinion then in spite of the preservation of his own life, that

:03:14.:03:16.

the weapon is probably illegal and his opinion has not changed in the

:03:17.:03:21.

seven deadly sins. He suggests that the International Court of Justice

:03:22.:03:23.

might use the occasion of the case being brought by the Marshall

:03:24.:03:36.

Islands to update and enhance its 1996 ruling. In 1996, the ICJ ruled

:03:37.:03:39.

that the use or the threat of use of nuclear weapons was illegal and it

:03:40.:03:42.

may well decide now to rule that the possession of these weapons is

:03:43.:03:44.

illegal. The Government might not wish to take any note of legal

:03:45.:03:50.

advice on military issues some previous governments have indeed

:03:51.:03:53.

shown a reluctance to take such advice do, but surely ministers will

:03:54.:03:56.

not wish to ignore the effects on other areas of defence spending that

:03:57.:04:00.

communes Trident would have. They don't have to listen to us. They can

:04:01.:04:04.

speak to the official that the MoD. Cancelling Trident would be very

:04:05.:04:08.

good for their sleep patterns. The combined effects of spending cuts

:04:09.:04:12.

and the blind insistence on spending huge sums on a virility Tilton would

:04:13.:04:18.

leave poorly equipped front-line service personnel even worse off. I

:04:19.:04:22.

would certainly hope the Government would have the decency to consider

:04:23.:04:23.

them. Thank you very much, Madam them. Thank you very much, Madam

:04:24.:04:30.

Deputy Speaker. I was concerned with this debate today when I saw that it

:04:31.:04:33.

was one sentence, that this house believes that Trident should not be

:04:34.:04:36.

renewed. There is not much substance behind that and as the debate has

:04:37.:04:39.

gone on this it worries me more me more and more. We're deserted beach

:04:40.:04:43.

which talks about whether Trident may be legal or not. That is a

:04:44.:04:46.

matter for a legal debate, but the fact is, Madam Deputy is bigger, it

:04:47.:04:50.

exists. Nuclear weapons exist. I will give away. Does my honourable

:04:51.:04:56.

friend think that there are so many nations that have already been

:04:57.:05:01.

mentioned that have nuclear deterrents that nobody has looked

:05:02.:05:07.

into this? Maybe the honourable lady should admit she is perhaps wrong or

:05:08.:05:11.

it is a personal interpretation. As my honourable friend makes clear

:05:12.:05:16.

their, a lot of legal advice on issues like this are interpretation,

:05:17.:05:19.

but I think the point I want to come to you is that we can't worry our

:05:20.:05:23.

head in the sand and say we are not going to be involved with something

:05:24.:05:27.

which exists. The fact is a nuclear threat exists. I am afraid he

:05:28.:05:32.

doesn't appear to be still in his place, but the honourable gentleman

:05:33.:05:37.

and myself went to Ukraine. We went to Kiev. This is after the Russian

:05:38.:05:41.

intervention in that area and, as was mentioned earlier, it was made

:05:42.:05:50.

clear that for unilateral disarmament, the borders of Ukraine

:05:51.:05:54.

would be protected by the US and UK and the Russian Federation, and yet

:05:55.:05:57.

when the Russian Federation Walton, there was nothing that could be

:05:58.:06:02.

done. I just mentioned in a Foreign Office questions earlier today, the

:06:03.:06:05.

world's attention may have shifted to the situation in the Middle East

:06:06.:06:08.

and Syria, but there is a live war going on today in Ukraine and I hold

:06:09.:06:16.

the US part responsible for that, because the weak foreign policy by

:06:17.:06:20.

what I consider to be one of the worst presidents that the United

:06:21.:06:23.

States has had, which allowed Russia to take strategic decisions and what

:06:24.:06:27.

into countries like Ukraine, knowing that there was no deterrent to do

:06:28.:06:32.

that and that is what this debate is about. It is about deterrent and my

:06:33.:06:38.

honourable friend said you don't have a burglar alarm because you

:06:39.:06:41.

want people to burgle your house, you have it as a deterrent and it is

:06:42.:06:48.

incredible that any world which is so dangerous today that we have a

:06:49.:06:55.

debate which would try to disarm was as if the rest of the world would

:06:56.:07:02.

then fall into line. I will give way. I was intrigued by what you

:07:03.:07:05.

were saying and following your logic about Russia invading Ukraine, given

:07:06.:07:08.

that we have this deterrent, it surely hasn't worked there in

:07:09.:07:15.

Russia, has it not? And grateful for the intervention because actually he

:07:16.:07:19.

makes my point the other way. There was no deterrent to stop Russia

:07:20.:07:24.

going into Ukraine because the present rightly recognised that

:07:25.:07:28.

President Obama will not intervene into these international affairs.

:07:29.:07:32.

There was no checks and balances, no counter weight to what has become a

:07:33.:07:36.

new superpower and he just walked in and has been allowed to do so. Will

:07:37.:07:42.

my friend recognise that Ukraine was persuaded to give up its nuclear

:07:43.:07:47.

weapons? As a result, Putin has been able to rule Russia over

:07:48.:07:50.

international agreement. I would come to this point, this debate

:07:51.:07:57.

today is not about war mongering. It is not about a desire to launch

:07:58.:08:02.

nuclear weapons. It is in fact the direct opposite of that. It is about

:08:03.:08:07.

the fact that a nuclear deterrent has stopped major world conflicts

:08:08.:08:14.

and today we see there are conflicts taking place in these countries and

:08:15.:08:23.

when we talk about the threat of perhaps Daesh getting their hands on

:08:24.:08:26.

nuclear weapons or North Korea who would be able to launch an attack on

:08:27.:08:30.

South Korea, let's not forget there was never a peace treaty between

:08:31.:08:33.

North Korea and South Korea. Technically, they are still at work,

:08:34.:08:37.

but they been able to face each other off with conventional weapons

:08:38.:08:43.

from the last decade which, if that didn't track within nuclear

:08:44.:08:47.

Western intervention on South Korea Western intervention on South Korea

:08:48.:08:50.

to make sure that it can counteract that threat from North Korea.

:08:51.:08:55.

Otherwise, there will be hundreds of thousands of innocent people

:08:56.:09:00.

murdered. By a regime with no other intention than just wanting to wipe

:09:01.:09:06.

out its neighbour. That is what a deterrent prevents, Madam Deputy

:09:07.:09:09.

Speaker. That is why this debate is so important, because nobody in this

:09:10.:09:18.

room in Nato, nobody in the Western world, probably not even President

:09:19.:09:22.

Putin, would want to use nuclear weapons. That is not what this

:09:23.:09:26.

debate is about. But it is about making sure that when something

:09:27.:09:31.

exists that those enemies who would use it don't have the opportunity to

:09:32.:09:36.

use it because they know it would be pointless. They know it would not

:09:37.:09:41.

lead to anything. North Korea will not launch an nuclear weapons on

:09:42.:09:45.

South Korea if it knows that ten seconds later it will disappear off

:09:46.:09:50.

the face of the map as well. That, however unpalatable that truth may

:09:51.:09:53.

be, that is the truth would have kept the peace. And if we look at

:09:54.:09:57.

the First World War and then we look at the Second World War, fought with

:09:58.:10:01.

conventional weapons, but the death toll in those third years was far

:10:02.:10:06.

higher and far more civilians killed in the Second World War than the

:10:07.:10:12.

First World War and as technology advances, as the war is increased,

:10:13.:10:16.

you notice that civilian population dies more and more. It was

:10:17.:10:22.

noticeable that when my right honourable friend the Prime Minister

:10:23.:10:25.

stood in that dispatch box earlier this week, he made it absolutely

:10:26.:10:31.

clear that military action which may be considered in Syria is being

:10:32.:10:35.

considered as part of a wider programme with targeted intervention

:10:36.:10:43.

to try and stop civilian death. Western leaders today spend most of

:10:44.:10:48.

their time trying to work out how we can intervene by reducing civilian

:10:49.:10:51.

deaths and there is nothing better to reduce a civilian death if you

:10:52.:10:55.

know that the Government who may be pushing their people into this work

:10:56.:10:59.

knows that they themselves would be wiped out. And that is hugely

:11:00.:11:02.

important in this area. There has been a lot of talk about

:11:03.:11:14.

whether it is the right thing to spend the money on. It amounts to is

:11:15.:11:20.

euro .2% of GDP. I question in this house what would award, even with

:11:21.:11:30.

conventional weapons do to the GDP production of Europe and the Western

:11:31.:11:36.

world? Would also like to reflect on the fact that the 31 billion is

:11:37.:11:40.

rather less than the debt interest payment we have to make as a legacy

:11:41.:11:47.

from the last government? I perhaps do not want to get too skewed into

:11:48.:11:53.

other debates today, but he sees a very important issue. He makes an

:11:54.:11:58.

important comment. We cannot have a solid defence in this country and we

:11:59.:12:04.

cannot have a capable, Strategic Defence Review unless we have a

:12:05.:12:08.

strong economy and that has to go hand in hand with this debate. In

:12:09.:12:14.

summing up, none of us today want to renew Trident because we are

:12:15.:12:18.

warmongers, we are the exact opposite. But we have to be aware of

:12:19.:12:25.

the threat that exist in our world, threats we have to be capable of

:12:26.:12:30.

responding to, but we hope we never do have to respond to. The proof of

:12:31.:12:36.

the last 70 odd years has shut shown that even in the Cuban missile

:12:37.:12:41.

crisis when President Kennedy said we are eyeball to eyeball, why did

:12:42.:12:47.

the Russians back down? They knew it would mean unilateral destruction of

:12:48.:12:50.

their own country as well as the country they were attacking. No

:12:51.:12:55.

matter how unpalatable the renewal of Trident may be, it works. This is

:12:56.:13:05.

a matter of profound national importance and is a debate about the

:13:06.:13:10.

security of our nation and about the standing of our nation amongst our

:13:11.:13:15.

allies and in the eyes of our adversaries. The history of our

:13:16.:13:19.

position as a nuclear power stems from our desire to protect ourselves

:13:20.:13:23.

and to not shy away from our responsibilities globally. We must

:13:24.:13:28.

acknowledge the historically critical role the Labour Party has

:13:29.:13:33.

played in the development of the United Kingdom's independent nuclear

:13:34.:13:38.

deterrent. It is important to recognise the Secretary of State's

:13:39.:13:43.

call for consensus on this, which I welcome. It was Clement Attlee who

:13:44.:13:48.

began the preliminary work that paved the way for an independent,

:13:49.:13:55.

nuclear deterrent in 1945. It was in October, 1946, that the Labour

:13:56.:14:01.

Foreign Secretary pushed ahead with plans for our own system, Ernie

:14:02.:14:07.

Bevin. Let me join him in praising Clement Attlee who fought with

:14:08.:14:11.

courage and the First World War and does he not think that his own

:14:12.:14:14.

former leader would have looked at the nuclear Alliance and would have

:14:15.:14:21.

thought, if you seek peace, prepare for war as the Roman said. I

:14:22.:14:27.

absolutely agree with that. He invented it and he would agree with

:14:28.:14:36.

it. As an individual I welcome that. One of the reasons it is important

:14:37.:14:40.

for me is that my constituency of Barrow-in-Furness has always been at

:14:41.:14:44.

the heart of our independent deterrent and it is a source of

:14:45.:14:49.

immense pride in Cumbria. Not only this, but I was elected very clearly

:14:50.:14:54.

on a clear manifesto commitment and so were my colleagues which reads,

:14:55.:14:58.

Labour remains committed to a minimum, credible, independent

:14:59.:15:04.

nuclear capability. The honourable gentleman mentioned Nato and the

:15:05.:15:11.

principle of maintaining an independent deterrent is

:15:12.:15:13.

demonstrated through our commitment to our Nato allies. I thank my

:15:14.:15:21.

honourable friend and have actually visited the Barrow ship yard and

:15:22.:15:26.

understand his passion to the workforce and his commitment to the

:15:27.:15:30.

project. But is it not also the case that not only did major Attlee

:15:31.:15:33.

support the nuclear deterrent, but also figures from the left of the

:15:34.:15:37.

left of them look Labour Party, including Nye Bevan who said we

:15:38.:15:40.

should not walk naked into the conference chamber? I could not put

:15:41.:15:48.

it better. It is one of our party's greatest achievements and that

:15:49.:15:50.

should be recognised at every opportunity. Can I thank my

:15:51.:15:55.

honourable friend for her steadfast support for the industry and for the

:15:56.:16:01.

deterrent. She knows what this means to the manufacturing sector in her

:16:02.:16:04.

constituency. I thank you for giving way. To bring things into a more

:16:05.:16:12.

modern context, does the honourable member agree with one of my

:16:13.:16:16.

constituency predecessors, Lord Browne, a former Defence Secretary,

:16:17.:16:23.

who today drew attention to the US report which basically says nuclear

:16:24.:16:31.

weapons going forward are as much at risk from cyber threat and they

:16:32.:16:36.

might be useless for deployment because of cyber attacks. You deploy

:16:37.:16:41.

them and you cannot use them. No, I do not agree with that. The most

:16:42.:16:49.

recent strategic concept from Nato reaffirmed that as long as nuclear

:16:50.:16:54.

weapons are in the world, Nato will remain a nuclear Alliance. It

:16:55.:17:00.

remains a core element of Nato strategy. I need to make some

:17:01.:17:07.

progress. The security of the allies is provided by the strategic,

:17:08.:17:12.

nuclear forces of the Alliance and we have to recognise the United

:17:13.:17:19.

Kingdom. We must maintain these relationships in regard to our Nato

:17:20.:17:25.

relationship, and we must maintain an independent nuclear deterrent.

:17:26.:17:29.

Whilst other nations have nuclear weapons, so should we. This is not

:17:30.:17:35.

about bravado or a one-upmanship, or a virility kind of test, it is a

:17:36.:17:40.

demonstration of strength and capability which provides our

:17:41.:17:46.

deterrent. Only the most naive would claim that this is fully diminished.

:17:47.:17:50.

Whilst there are other nuclear weapons in the world, the only

:17:51.:17:55.

effective nuclear deterrent is found in maintaining our own independent,

:17:56.:18:01.

nuclear weapons. Unilateralism will never work and this party has tested

:18:02.:18:06.

that theory to destruction. Only a multinational approach can rid the

:18:07.:18:09.

world of nuclear missiles. The fact of the matter is that in our country

:18:10.:18:17.

we have managed to maintain our deterrent whilst reducing our

:18:18.:18:20.

warheads. That should be acknowledged and celebrated. We are

:18:21.:18:27.

the only major, advanced, nuclear country to have demonstrated that.

:18:28.:18:31.

We cannot disregard the economics. Those well versed in history of

:18:32.:18:36.

military and civil engineering will understand the benefits of this to

:18:37.:18:43.

my constituency. The expertise in Copland and Barrow-in-Furness has

:18:44.:18:48.

cemented our leadership in the world and has provided a basis for jobs.

:18:49.:18:58.

It has attracted vast private investment. This position as world

:18:59.:19:05.

leaders has been hard earned principally by my honourable friend

:19:06.:19:08.

from Barrow-in-Furness and I, but hard earned through decades of work

:19:09.:19:13.

in the nuclear industry maintaining these skills and expertise, which is

:19:14.:19:17.

crucial to economic well-being and growth to my constituency and by

:19:18.:19:22.

county and the north-west of England. Trident replacement is

:19:23.:19:28.

forecast to generate as many as 26,000 jobs and 6000 will be based

:19:29.:19:32.

in Barrow-in-Furness. The livelihoods of many of those in the

:19:33.:19:37.

south of my constituency depend on the renewal of Trident. We heard

:19:38.:19:44.

from the Secretary of State that the GMB has described this as pie in the

:19:45.:19:48.

sky, but they have yet to put forward a comprehensive plan. We

:19:49.:19:54.

have to take into account the impact on smaller companies that make up

:19:55.:19:58.

the supply chain. The update to Parliament in February said there

:19:59.:20:04.

were over 850 potential suppliers over the UK and it is a significant

:20:05.:20:11.

national undertaking that draws on innovation, design and engineering

:20:12.:20:16.

skills available in the UK and provides employment opportunities

:20:17.:20:20.

for apprentices, trainees and graduates in a wide range of

:20:21.:20:25.

technical and other disciplines. The expertise and the innovation all

:20:26.:20:28.

have their birthplace in west and south-west Cumbria. There are

:20:29.:20:36.

benefits for thousands of graduates, apprenticeships and trainees.

:20:37.:20:40.

Opponents of the renewal will make the case that skills can be deployed

:20:41.:20:43.

in other industries without making clear what these other industries

:20:44.:20:52.

are. In fact, the proponents of diversification have had nearly four

:20:53.:20:57.

decades to come up with a plan to demonstrate how diversification

:20:58.:21:00.

would work and they still have not done it because there is no plan and

:21:01.:21:05.

there never will be a plan. We have to approach the world as we find it,

:21:06.:21:11.

not how we want it to be. To vote against renewal is to put thousands

:21:12.:21:16.

of people out of work and to waste knowledge and expertise, to neglect

:21:17.:21:22.

our duties to our allies, to diminish our ability to defend

:21:23.:21:25.

ourselves and to diminish our standing in the world. Britain has

:21:26.:21:29.

punched above its weight for centuries. We are a global leader

:21:30.:21:34.

and we should never step back from this responsibility. I find myself

:21:35.:21:39.

today in a position where I am proud to support my constituents, my

:21:40.:21:45.

constituency, my country and Labour Party policy in the best traditions

:21:46.:21:50.

of Clement Attlee. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I write this

:21:51.:21:56.

afternoon in support of renewal of the Trident nuclear deterrent, but

:21:57.:22:01.

before I do that, can I pay tribute to those Labour MPs who have put

:22:02.:22:06.

party politics to one side and I'm thinking very much of the British

:22:07.:22:10.

national interest. There is no member of Parliament more valiant in

:22:11.:22:14.

that cause than the member for Barrow-in-Furness, who has been a

:22:15.:22:19.

shining example of what it looks like to stand up for your

:22:20.:22:23.

constituents, to fight for the local economy that you represent and to

:22:24.:22:26.

ensure the arguments you passionately believe in are held not

:22:27.:22:31.

just in this house, but throughout the country. Many of us could learn

:22:32.:22:35.

from the work that the honourable member does on this important

:22:36.:22:41.

matter. Can I say that I grew up on the Clyde coast, not 1 million miles

:22:42.:22:45.

away from Faslane. I went to school in Dumbarton, very close to Faslane.

:22:46.:22:54.

I know very much how important Faslane is to the local economy of

:22:55.:23:00.

that area. With over 8000 jobs that will be there by 2020, that is the

:23:01.:23:05.

engine of that part of Scotland. It is by far the largest employer in

:23:06.:23:10.

that part of Scotland. I will give way. There are in fact many jobs

:23:11.:23:18.

associated with HM Naval base Clyde and these jobs are support staff,

:23:19.:23:22.

staff in accommodation and local businesses. They would still be

:23:23.:23:29.

there if there were conventional warships based in Faslane. I admire

:23:30.:23:36.

the honourable lady's optimism, but if we are being told there will be

:23:37.:23:40.

8200 jobs, and increase as a result of the work of moving the submarines

:23:41.:23:47.

up there, if she honestly believes there will be that level of jobs

:23:48.:23:54.

directly and even more indirectly and an independent Scotland would

:23:55.:24:00.

have glorified fishery protection vessels, they could be anywhere... I

:24:01.:24:05.

will not give way. That is what we are talking about. It is misleading

:24:06.:24:10.

at best to the people of Dumbarton show to save those number of jobs

:24:11.:24:15.

and those qualities and those skills will be there without a nuclear

:24:16.:24:20.

deterrent. Does the honourable gentleman believe the people of

:24:21.:24:23.

Argyll and Bute and the people of Dumbarton are so unaware of the

:24:24.:24:27.

circumstances in which they live that day at the general election

:24:28.:24:31.

could not have worked that out themselves? Had they not believe

:24:32.:24:35.

what we were saying, I would not have been collected and Norwood my

:24:36.:24:42.

honourable friend for Dumbarton. Elections are always referendums on

:24:43.:24:47.

the future. We spent a day together on Thursday going round the aircraft

:24:48.:24:52.

carriers. Can I say to my honourable friend that if you were to take HMS

:24:53.:24:57.

Clyde out of the equation and Coulport and Faslane out of the

:24:58.:25:01.

equation and the skills and high-paid jobs, his constituency

:25:02.:25:05.

would be a poorer place as a result. I want to make progress. The

:25:06.:25:11.

independent nuclear deterrent is vital for the future of this country

:25:12.:25:15.

and for our manufacturing base, our skills base, apprenticeships. I have

:25:16.:25:21.

got constituents at BAE Systems who will be working on the programme,

:25:22.:25:27.

engineers and apprentices who are looking forward to working on that.

:25:28.:25:32.

The length of the United Kingdom will have people, men and women,

:25:33.:25:38.

young and old and apprenticeships across all skills bases who will be

:25:39.:25:44.

dependent on the nuclear deterrent and the successor class programme.

:25:45.:25:48.

We know that at our peril. You take the programme out of our proposal

:25:49.:25:56.

and it is not the threat on national security, nor the devastating impact

:25:57.:25:59.

it would have in places like HMS Clyde, it is the fact all of our

:26:00.:26:03.

communities would suffer as a result. I would beg the Labour Party

:26:04.:26:11.

to come to its senses when it comes to this matter. It should not be

:26:12.:26:17.

down to independent minded, Labour MPs who passionately believe in

:26:18.:26:19.

national security. It should Part of the Labour's defence review,

:26:20.:26:30.

I hope, will come to appreciate the unique importance that Trident has,

:26:31.:26:33.

that British national security cannot be put at risk. We cannot

:26:34.:26:38.

hope for a safer #w0r8d, we have to work in order to secure it and

:26:39.:26:44.

Trident is an integral part of that security -- safer world. And it is

:26:45.:26:49.

very much, that deterrent. I hope the Labour Party will not let us

:26:50.:26:54.

down when it comes to that crucial moment. But can I also put on record

:26:55.:26:59.

my thanks to the Secretary of State and the team at the Ministry of

:27:00.:27:04.

Defence, for yesterday they outlined in the defence and strategic review

:27:05.:27:07.

how conventional forces would fit in with the future of our country. We

:27:08.:27:11.

are not just reliant on Trident for our defence. Indeed, I do welcome

:27:12.:27:13.

the anti-submarine warfare capability aircraft which were

:27:14.:27:16.

announced yesterday, which will be based in Scotland and they will be

:27:17.:27:19.

an integral part in looking after the deterrent. I will give way. Is

:27:20.:27:25.

it not noticeable in the report published yesterday, that there were

:27:26.:27:30.

no threats in Tier 1 for which Trident would be appropriate as a

:27:31.:27:35.

response? Well, we know, we live in an unpredictable world. In fact, the

:27:36.:27:42.

key thing here is that every single Strategic Defence Review has almost

:27:43.:27:45.

been redundant by the time the you I think was dry on the paper. No-one

:27:46.:27:51.

recalled the so-called Arab Spring at the time of the last review or

:27:52.:27:58.

the resurgent Russia. We have to look at the threats, regardless what

:27:59.:28:02.

they may look like and it is never at a time of our choosing. But, the

:28:03.:28:05.

importance of conventional weapons at the heart of our defence is

:28:06.:28:11.

absolutely fightal. That's why yesterday the Government outlined

:28:12.:28:14.

across all the three services, a very, very clear strategy to ensure

:28:15.:28:19.

that conventional weapons and modernisation of our Armed Forces

:28:20.:28:22.

was integral within that, but they would not be as effective if the UK

:28:23.:28:27.

were to be stripped, unilateral of our nuclear deterrent because

:28:28.:28:31.

ultimately, it is the ween we all hope and pray -- it is the weapon we

:28:32.:28:36.

all hope and pray will never, ever be used but the very in fact we have

:28:37.:28:41.

it, sends out a very powerful message to any potential

:28:42.:28:45.

adversaries, that the UK takes our security seriously. The UK takes its

:28:46.:28:49.

defence seriously. The UK will defend its allies within Nato and we

:28:50.:28:55.

are not a country, Madame Deputy Speaker, who can sit back and hope

:28:56.:28:59.

that someone else will secure our future for us. Whenever we have done

:29:00.:29:02.

that in the past, we have sometimes been found to be wanting. The United

:29:03.:29:07.

Kingdom must always, always look after its own defence and, Madame

:29:08.:29:12.

Deputy Speaker, I hope that Trident and its successor class submarines

:29:13.:29:16.

will always be at the heart of that U thank you very much.

:29:17.:29:22.

-- thank you very much. Alistair car mikele Thank you Madame

:29:23.:29:32.

Deputy Speaker, can I thaung for the thank you for the opportunity to

:29:33.:29:39.

take place in this debate. It is a debate that the House hasn't given

:29:40.:29:43.

sufficient time to in recent years, although we know it is an issue we

:29:44.:29:48.

have to address and for any Government business managers, for

:29:49.:29:51.

future purpose, the House would be better served by more substantial

:29:52.:29:55.

moment in Government time, which may allow a wider consideration of the

:29:56.:29:59.

challenges that face us. Inevitably, we are dealing here today with an

:30:00.:30:04.

Opposition Day debate and I listened with very great care to the speech

:30:05.:30:08.

of the honourable member for Argyll and Bute. It is rives remarkable, I

:30:09.:30:12.

thought that -- it was quite remarkable, I thought that much of

:30:13.:30:15.

his speech focussed on the position of the Labour Party, as it did on

:30:16.:30:20.

the Government. That's a novel position for an Opposition Day

:30:21.:30:24.

debate. But I have to say, in fairness, I'm not entirely without

:30:25.:30:28.

sympathy for the approach, given the difficulties that there are in the

:30:29.:30:38.

Labour Party. It's not that they lack a clear position, Madame Deputy

:30:39.:30:41.

Speaker, I would suggest it is that they have too many clear positions

:30:42.:30:45.

and it is difficult to reconcile them all within the party. I have

:30:46.:30:51.

sympathy for them with the review they have under taken, I wish it

:30:52.:30:55.

well. But I have to say, I have severe misgivings when I hear that

:30:56.:30:58.

they have put Ken Livingstone in charge of it. Putting Ken

:30:59.:31:02.

Livingstone in charge of a review of nuclear weaponry is a bit like

:31:03.:31:08.

putting King Herod in charge of the nursery. But when it comes to this

:31:09.:31:13.

review - I would say and I commend the honourable member for

:31:14.:31:16.

Chesterfield for his contribution in the debant the manner in which he

:31:17.:31:23.

did it - debate. The review could do worse than taking at starting point

:31:24.:31:27.

the Trident review that was carried out at the instance of my party in

:31:28.:31:31.

the last Government which looked at all the different number of

:31:32.:31:34.

alternatives and different ways in which this question could be

:31:35.:31:38.

approached. Of course I give way. I'm grateful to the honourable

:31:39.:31:42.

gentleman for giving way. Perhaps he could clarify the stance within his

:31:43.:31:50.

own party. A member in my constituency claimed that - who

:31:51.:32:02.

represents his in his party claimed you didn't need to have it as it

:32:03.:32:08.

wasn't used in the Falkland Islands. Maybe the honourable gentleman can

:32:09.:32:15.

give clarification. I will not be responsible for referry member of my

:32:16.:32:20.

party in every constituency, any more than the honourable lady would

:32:21.:32:24.

for her party. I will come to my party's position in a second. I

:32:25.:32:28.

think it is one that is central to the debate which I do wish to put in

:32:29.:32:34.

record. If she wish to know it, she could have advantage of considering

:32:35.:32:37.

the terms of the amendment which has been tabled but unfortunately has

:32:38.:32:39.

not been selected for division today. It is worth remembering that

:32:40.:32:42.

we are only having this debate because in fact the main gate

:32:43.:32:46.

decision, which was to have been held in the last Parliament, or

:32:47.:32:51.

taken in the last Parliament, was in fact delayed until this Parliament

:32:52.:32:57.

and when the minister who is going to look at this debate, I would

:32:58.:33:01.

invite him to accept that although his party wanted to take McMain gate

:33:02.:33:08.

decision in the last Parliament, in fact, events would vindicate

:33:09.:33:10.

decisions that were taken and this is the right point in the cycle in

:33:11.:33:15.

which to be taking T Madame Deputy Speaker, we live in an ever-changing

:33:16.:33:21.

and uncertain world. -- taking it. As the honourable member from El

:33:22.:33:26.

Americas t I think, said earlier, we cannot ignore the in fact that

:33:27.:33:32.

nuclear weapons exist. -- Elmet. I would be they could be uninp

:33:33.:33:37.

vented but they are not. That's the basis on which we should approach

:33:38.:33:41.

this debate. It is not just about whether they should be renewed or

:33:42.:33:47.

not, it is what we, as the UK, as a permanent member of the United

:33:48.:33:50.

Nations Security Council, can do to take a lead in the international

:33:51.:33:53.

security and the nuclear power, to ensure that there is now a serious

:33:54.:33:57.

movement towards multilateral new clear disarmament. This was a

:33:58.:34:03.

formative debate, in my early political years, Madame Deputy

:34:04.:34:06.

Speaker, as indeed I think it probably was for yourself in the

:34:07.:34:11.

1987 general election but the world was a very different place in 1987.

:34:12.:34:15.

The Cold War was still at its height. The Soviet Union still

:34:16.:34:20.

existed. We have seen enormous change in that time, but the change

:34:21.:34:25.

has not all been in one direction. You have only to look at the

:34:26.:34:29.

situation in Ukraine and the Crimea, to realise in fact that these old

:34:30.:34:34.

enmities never die. And it is not really pertinent to say what is a

:34:35.:34:39.

Tier 1 or a tinchts er 2 risk at this point. It is what is going to

:34:40.:34:44.

be the situation in the future. -- or Tier 2 risk. Having said all

:34:45.:34:48.

that, I would still say that the Government's determination to pursue

:34:49.:34:52.

a like-for-like replacement for Trident ignores the different world

:34:53.:34:57.

in which we now live, and indeed it misses the opportunity that we have,

:34:58.:35:02.

as a force for multilateral nuclear disarmament, to take a different

:35:03.:35:06.

approach, to take a step down the nuclear ladder. And as a result

:35:07.:35:12.

actually, as a nuclear power, to meet our obligations, under the

:35:13.:35:16.

various nuclear nonproliferation treaties. The Secretary of State,

:35:17.:35:20.

when he was addressing the House, spoke of what he has done to reduce

:35:21.:35:25.

the number of nuclear warheads that are currently available for

:35:26.:35:29.

deployment. And I commend him for that. He lamented the fact that this

:35:30.:35:38.

has solace I had little response from other nuclear or

:35:39.:35:41.

nuclear-aspiring countries. I have to say to him, that I suspect the

:35:42.:35:45.

reason for that is because despite the reduction inform the number of

:35:46.:35:50.

warheads, the Government continues to cling to the notion of continued

:35:51.:35:56.

at-sea deterrent. I think the time has now come for a very long and

:35:57.:36:00.

serious look to whether that remains a an appropriate way. The conclusion

:36:01.:36:03.

my party has reached is that it is no longer necessary, it is no longer

:36:04.:36:09.

appropriate and that is what we would like to see, the end to

:36:10.:36:14.

continuous at-sea nuclear deterrents, whilst of course

:36:15.:36:17.

maintaining our deterrent would allow us to take something of a lead

:36:18.:36:25.

in taking the step down... If the how many wants to intervene, I will

:36:26.:36:31.

take an intervention, I will not take sedentary chunteringing. We are

:36:32.:36:34.

baffled about how this part-time deterrent would work. Why would it

:36:35.:36:40.

save money? How would it stop the fist strike capability? And what

:36:41.:36:43.

would they do when they were not deterring? If the honourable member

:36:44.:36:48.

wishes to have a serious debate about this, then I'm well in the

:36:49.:36:51.

market for that. He should understand that this is a legitimate

:36:52.:36:56.

and substantial proposal which does command a lot of support amongst

:36:57.:37:01.

many people hop understand and accept the need for nuclear weaponry

:37:02.:37:05.

but who are prepared to look at how we use our position as a nuclear

:37:06.:37:12.

power as a proponent of nuclear disarmament, rather than as

:37:13.:37:19.

something which is... Well, before he continues, to finish, to shake

:37:20.:37:24.

his head, he may well find his own review comes up to something very

:37:25.:37:28.

similar to this. So, just be careful not to disparage today what you

:37:29.:37:32.

might find in your manifesto tomorrow. Madame Deputy Speaker,

:37:33.:37:41.

time I'm afraid is against me. It is unfortunate that this debate has

:37:42.:37:44.

occasionally generated more heat than light, but it is an important

:37:45.:37:48.

one that this House has to have. I suspect we shall be returning to it

:37:49.:37:52.

in the months and years to come. When we do so, we shall do that on

:37:53.:37:59.

the basis that this is our opportunity to be a a leading force.

:38:00.:38:09.

In nuclear disarmament. Order, it is a lively debate. But we are running

:38:10.:38:13.

out of time. After the next contribution, I will have to reduce

:38:14.:38:17.

the time limit for backbench speeches to four minutes.

:38:18.:38:22.

Dr Julian Lewis. Thank you very much Madame Deputy

:38:23.:38:27.

Speaker for permission to speak to this debate. I apologise to the

:38:28.:38:31.

House that because I was chairing a public session of the Defence Select

:38:32.:38:35.

Committee, I could not be here for the opening speeches. And I have

:38:36.:38:39.

deliberately refrained for making any interventions for that reason as

:38:40.:38:46.

well. I must say that although the issue of strategic nuclear deterrent

:38:47.:38:49.

is very divisive, I think there is one thing we can agree about, which

:38:50.:38:54.

is that the calibre of the speeches on both sides of the House, and on

:38:55.:39:00.

both sides of the argument, has been very high indeed. Now, if the

:39:01.:39:07.

Chairman of the Defence Select Committee had to mirror the views of

:39:08.:39:11.

the members of that committee, I would spend probably just over 90%

:39:12.:39:16.

of my time arguing passionately in favour of the nuclear deterrent and

:39:17.:39:22.

just under 10% of my time arguing equally passionately against the new

:39:23.:39:25.

clear deterrent because we have and are delighted to have on the Defence

:39:26.:39:32.

Select Committee the honourable member for Dunfermline and West

:39:33.:39:38.

Fife, who is a consistent and thoughtful opponent of Trident.

:39:39.:39:42.

Fortunately, however, I do not have to mirror those views. The views I'm

:39:43.:39:46.

expected to put forward are clearly marked. They are my own views, and

:39:47.:39:51.

they have been pretty much the same for 35 years, half of them outside

:39:52.:39:54.

this House and the remaining time inside this House. And it sometimes

:39:55.:40:00.

comes as a bit of a surprise to people on my having been elected to

:40:01.:40:03.

zap chair the Defence Select Committee, when they look at the

:40:04.:40:09.

list of five people from the Labour Opposition who were kind enough to

:40:10.:40:17.

nominate me to that role. One was the Shadow Armed Forces Minister,

:40:18.:40:20.

the honourable gentleman for North Durham and that hardly comes as a

:40:21.:40:26.

surprise. But at the other end of the spectrum I was fortunate enough

:40:27.:40:32.

to enjoy the support of the President Leader of the Opposition,

:40:33.:40:36.

and the reason for that was that we both agree on one thing, even though

:40:37.:40:42.

our views are diametrically opposed from one another on whether we

:40:43.:40:46.

should continue to have a nuclear deterrent, we both agree that both

:40:47.:40:49.

sides of the case have a good argument to make and when you make

:40:50.:40:53.

it on the floor of the House, everybody learns something. And, in

:40:54.:41:00.

particular, with the support of the now Leader of the Opposition, on the

:41:01.:41:05.

17th January 2013, I managed to secure the first full debate on the

:41:06.:41:10.

whole issue of Trident and deterrents, in this main chamber,

:41:11.:41:17.

since that vote on 14th March 2007, when the initial gate was approved.

:41:18.:41:24.

I think that anybody that really wants to see both sides of the

:41:25.:41:30.

intellectual argument at their best could do no better than to copy that

:41:31.:41:34.

of that debate. I shall just pick out from it the five main military

:41:35.:41:40.

arguments and I fear I won't have enough time to deal with the point

:41:41.:41:46.

about cyber vulnerability, so I commend to the house the article in

:41:47.:41:52.

the Guardian today and the comments by Doctor Franklin Miller, a leading

:41:53.:41:58.

expert on the American nuclear systems and the holder of an

:41:59.:42:01.

honorary knighthood from this country about why it is that there

:42:02.:42:06.

is no question of the nuclear deterrent being connected in any way

:42:07.:42:10.

to the Internet and in being anyway vulnerable. Also on the question of

:42:11.:42:18.

tears. Tier two threats are often more dangerous than Tier one threats

:42:19.:42:21.

and that is why the select committee has just published a report

:42:22.:42:26.

challenging the utility of ranking frets in this way. Let me stick to

:42:27.:42:30.

my few arguments and there is not much time for many. -- any detail,

:42:31.:42:37.

unless anyone is kind enough to intervene. The first is the most

:42:38.:42:42.

important, the future military threats and complex will be no more

:42:43.:42:49.

predictable than those who have engulfed us throughout the 20th

:42:50.:42:51.

century. That is the justification for preserving Armed Forces in peace

:42:52.:43:04.

time. Does he agree a deterrent is probably our best defence? This

:43:05.:43:09.

directly leads to what it is to say you are using Trident. Those of us

:43:10.:43:13.

who believe that a position of a deadly weapon is the best method of

:43:14.:43:19.

stopping people who possess similar ones against using it against you is

:43:20.:43:24.

that Trident is in use every day of the week. And if ever the button had

:43:25.:43:31.

to be pressed,, it would have totally failed in its purpose. Where

:43:32.:43:42.

as democracies are reluctant to use nuclear weapon against non-nuclear

:43:43.:43:46.

dictatorships, although they did in 1945 against Japan, the reverse is

:43:47.:43:50.

not true. Let's consider what might have happened in 1982 if non-nuclear

:43:51.:43:58.

Britain had been facing Argentina with just a few nuclear bombs. Would

:43:59.:44:00.

we have been dared to use? The we have been dared to use? The

:44:01.:44:16.

United Kingdom has played a important role. Democratic countries

:44:17.:44:22.

without nuclear weapons have little choice but to either declare

:44:23.:44:25.

themselves neutral and help for the best all rely on the nuclear

:44:26.:44:34.

umbrella of their allies. We are a nuclear power already and it is hard

:44:35.:44:39.

to defeat us conventionally, because of the English Channel. The fourth

:44:40.:44:45.

argument is that because the United States is our closest ally, if the

:44:46.:44:49.

continent of Europe were ever occupied and the nuclear forces of

:44:50.:44:55.

the United States had not been used, and enemy might feel that they could

:44:56.:45:01.

attack us with nuclear weapons. For those who say that there are nuclear

:45:02.:45:08.

deterrent in the hands of the Americans, what would he make of

:45:09.:45:13.

every Prime Minister having to write a letter about every submarine,

:45:14.:45:17.

which he hasn't seen? He is absolutely right. The Trident

:45:18.:45:23.

nuclear system is entirely autonomous and nothing, not the

:45:24.:45:28.

Americans or any form of cyber bug can possibly intervene if, heaven

:45:29.:45:35.

forbid, the worst happened and the United Kingdom were attacked in part

:45:36.:45:41.

or in whole and the submarine commander had to open that dread

:45:42.:45:45.

letter, which the Prime Minister has written. And the fifth and final of

:45:46.:45:51.

the military argument is my most important of all. And that is the

:45:52.:45:55.

one I put two people who try and say, well, you're inflicting cuts on

:45:56.:46:04.

our conventional capability. There is no quantity of conventional

:46:05.:46:10.

forces which can compensate for the military disadvantage that faces a

:46:11.:46:14.

non-nuclear country in a war against a nuclear armed enemy. The atomic

:46:15.:46:20.

bombing of Japan is the perfect example, because the emperor was

:46:21.:46:24.

forced soon surrender, but also because what might have happened

:46:25.:46:29.

under the reversed scenario. -- forced to surrender. If Joe van --

:46:30.:46:37.

Japan had developed nuclear weapons and the allies hadn't... I

:46:38.:46:47.

congratulate the SNP on having given us this opportunity today. Can I

:46:48.:46:53.

make it clear at the beginning that during the Cold War period, I was a

:46:54.:47:01.

multi-naturalist. I have no moral objections to nuclear weapons of

:47:02.:47:14.

nuclear power. -- multi-. Naturalist. Time has moved on and we

:47:15.:47:23.

live in a different world nowadays. There are two arguments put forward

:47:24.:47:28.

as to why the UK should have a independent nuclear deterrent. I

:47:29.:47:33.

have to say, in my opinion, both of them are myths. The first myth is

:47:34.:47:37.

that the system is independent, it is not. The UK has for nuclear

:47:38.:47:43.

submarines, each can carry up to eight missiles. Each missile can

:47:44.:47:47.

carry up to five nuclear warheads. The UK does not own the missiles. It

:47:48.:47:56.

loans them from America, where they are made and maintained and tested.

:47:57.:48:01.

They had to go to a naval base in Georgia to have the missiles fitted.

:48:02.:48:06.

It is said that we have operational independence. Well, that is also a

:48:07.:48:12.

myth. Because does anybody seriously believe that the UK could deploy and

:48:13.:48:18.

use nuclear weapons anywhere in the world without the approval of the

:48:19.:48:23.

Americans? I don't believe that. Well... Well, let those who believe

:48:24.:48:34.

it make their arguments. I don't. The second... The second myth is

:48:35.:48:40.

that if the United Kingdom did not have nuclear weapons, that

:48:41.:48:49.

somehow... I will. I am very grateful. He states as a matter of

:48:50.:48:54.

fact that he asserts that it is a myth. Can he substantiate why he

:48:55.:48:58.

thinks what we on this side of the house say is independent in

:48:59.:49:05.

operational terms, why it is a myth, apart from just spouting something

:49:06.:49:11.

that has been used by Labour Party members without substantiation. --

:49:12.:49:20.

multi-lateralist. The last time the UK acted with Israel and the Suez

:49:21.:49:30.

Canal, if they read the memoirs of Harold Macmillan, he made it

:49:31.:49:35.

perfectly clear that the Americans said we had to leave the Suez Canal

:49:36.:49:40.

and end our military action. If they didn't, they would bankrupt the

:49:41.:49:44.

country. If the honourable member feels that the Americans would quite

:49:45.:49:48.

happily let us go and deploy our nuclear weapons and use them, he

:49:49.:49:53.

can't believe that. I don't. Move on. The second... I will. Thank you.

:49:54.:50:00.

I think he makes an extremely good point. Should the British public

:50:01.:50:05.

sleep soundly in their beds, knowing that in a few years' time, when it

:50:06.:50:11.

comes to our nuclear weapons, Donald might hold the trump card? The

:50:12.:50:18.

second myth, I believe, which has been argued to date, that is often

:50:19.:50:25.

put around is that if the UK didn't have nuclear weapons, it would lose

:50:26.:50:29.

its place on the UN Security Council. Of course, that is another

:50:30.:50:34.

nonsense. Because when the security council was formed, only one of the

:50:35.:50:38.

five permanent members had nuclear weapons. That was America. None of

:50:39.:50:46.

the others did. This country, like all other developed countries, does

:50:47.:50:52.

face threats with security from rogue states, international

:50:53.:50:55.

terrorist groups and from groups within our own society who want to

:50:56.:51:01.

destroy it. In my opinion, these threats are best met by our

:51:02.:51:06.

membership of Nato. The most successful mutual defence pact in

:51:07.:51:10.

history, which had never attacked anybody between the time it was set

:51:11.:51:16.

up in 1948 until the ending of the Cold War. The tragedy of Nato was

:51:17.:51:22.

that after the Cold War, it became not a mutual defence pact, but the

:51:23.:51:27.

world's placement. That has caused enormous problems within member

:51:28.:51:34.

countries of Nato. The way of dealing with threats from domestic

:51:35.:51:39.

terrorism is by having a fully staffed, fully financed security

:51:40.:51:46.

service. By ensuring that the police have money to do the job. They need

:51:47.:51:56.

to do. And by ensuring that our own conventional forces are given the

:51:57.:52:00.

tools of the job when they are sent into military conflicts on our

:52:01.:52:07.

behalf. And let me make this point. We've witnessed in this country

:52:08.:52:12.

terrible terrorist atrocities. The London bombings. Did our ownership

:52:13.:52:18.

of nuclear weapons do anything to prevent that? We have seen at the

:52:19.:52:25.

weekend what happened in Paris. The terrible attacks in Paris. But

:52:26.:52:32.

France is a nuclear power. France does have a nuclear deterrent. But

:52:33.:52:39.

did their ownership of their nuclear deterrent deter the terrorist groups

:52:40.:52:43.

who carried out the atrocities in Paris? I am not convinced that we

:52:44.:52:54.

should spend a huge sum of money on renewing our own nuclear deterrent,

:52:55.:52:59.

which as I have already said, in my opinion, is not independent. I

:53:00.:53:03.

believe that very strongly indeed, that we should be members of Nato. I

:53:04.:53:10.

believe also that members of Nato should not be averse to contributing

:53:11.:53:16.

to the nuclear umbrella that America provides. I would have no objection

:53:17.:53:24.

to it, but the idea somehow that we should have a so-called independent

:53:25.:53:27.

nuclear deterrent, I believe, just doesn't stack up. Yesterday's

:53:28.:53:38.

national-security strategy indicated that the future of arrangements and

:53:39.:53:48.

continued reliance remains at its heart. I will content in these

:53:49.:53:54.

contribution that they do not serve Scotland at all. The costing over

:53:55.:54:03.

the lifetime is ?167 billion. These are expensive weapons. It is a

:54:04.:54:10.

status symbol for the United Kingdom, as opposed to a military

:54:11.:54:18.

weapon, I would argue. Today, we have successive Westminster

:54:19.:54:23.

governments who are obsessed with keeping a system for the next

:54:24.:54:27.

generation. Submarines equipped with missiles for the sole purpose of

:54:28.:54:33.

destroying an entire city indiscriminately and every living

:54:34.:54:36.

person in it, this cannot be legitimate. They are not weapons of

:54:37.:54:42.

war. We do not live in a time when our security is strengthened by

:54:43.:54:47.

these. It is not something that defends us. In the past few weeks,

:54:48.:54:53.

we have seen the evil but hate groups can bring to our doorsteps.

:54:54.:54:59.

These splinter networks, are formidable to take on. I would argue

:55:00.:55:04.

this is where we should take action. And pooling of resources. Investment

:55:05.:55:17.

of 1900 additional security services to counter the threat of espionage.

:55:18.:55:21.

This is something we should be investing in. Commitment to the

:55:22.:55:26.

threat against cyber attacks. And to take it as seriously as any

:55:27.:55:30.

conventional attack. And I welcome that in the statement yesterday. In

:55:31.:55:36.

terms of conventional capacity, I want to see more investment in

:55:37.:55:42.

several areas. Maritime patrol aircraft, these were taken away in

:55:43.:55:47.

2010 and replaced and put in Lossiemouth where they should be to

:55:48.:55:49.

defend our coasts. The UK contributes not to the

:55:50.:56:03.

defence of alliance with the defence of these weapons, our strategic aim

:56:04.:56:07.

if it is to work should be to compliment what our part nurse brick

:56:08.:56:10.

to Nato and supporting the Nato convex on the way to achieve that.

:56:11.:56:15.

The cost of the Trident update cannot be ignored, even for those

:56:16.:56:23.

who accept the nuclear volume osity question without questions.

:56:24.:56:32.

The cost of them, must be, surely, a level at which they cannot any more

:56:33.:56:35.

be justified. I'm grateful to the honourable

:56:36.:56:38.

gentleman for giving way. I want to make sure that he understands that

:56:39.:56:42.

there is nobody on this side of the House that would want to, if any

:56:43.:56:49.

relish or delight, press that button but whilst foes and potential

:56:50.:56:52.

enemies have t it is absolutely right and proper that we should have

:56:53.:56:57.

an equal defence mechanism to ensure the security of the world. There are

:56:58.:57:02.

lots of things that we can produce in the debate of pounds, shillings

:57:03.:57:06.

and pence, the defence of the realm is not one. Two things I would say,

:57:07.:57:11.

one, I don't accept the detesht argument which is why I'mering the

:57:12.:57:15.

point I am. The question I'm putting to members here, perhaps looking at

:57:16.:57:22.

it with an open mind is, r - is this necessary at any price when we are

:57:23.:57:25.

taking away from conventional weapons. I put that out there as a

:57:26.:57:30.

genuine question that has to be inaed. In the time I have left --

:57:31.:57:37.

that has to be asked. I'm conscious you were looking for some additional

:57:38.:57:41.

time. But can I get this right to the honourable member. You welcome

:57:42.:57:44.

the commitments yesterday for additional investment onnings in aal

:57:45.:57:47.

security from this country that the SNP want to leave? So you'll take

:57:48.:57:51.

the investment, you'll take the security and support but you want to

:57:52.:57:59.

leave this country and then today... ALL TALK AT ONCE If the honourable

:58:00.:58:04.

member can remember, he can speaking through the Chair, I have no

:58:05.:58:09.

interest in this debate, I have heard that reburk on numerous

:58:10.:58:14.

occasions I'm happy to follow along and apologise to the Chair, the

:58:15.:58:17.

honourable member has my point, and knows the point I'm making. You look

:58:18.:58:22.

for national security, the want the investment from this national

:58:23.:58:32.

Parliament but then an a la carte he wants an a la carte approach Madame

:58:33.:58:36.

Deputy Speaker, I'm not prepared to play fast and loose with our

:58:37.:58:40.

national security, neither should be honourable member.

:58:41.:58:42.

I think I am grateful for that contribution. It'll surprise no-one

:58:43.:58:48.

in this room all the same that I stand for SNP and independence, I

:58:49.:58:51.

believe it is the best future for Scotland but I'm here to play a

:58:52.:58:54.

constructive part in the security arrangements as long as Scotland is

:58:55.:58:59.

part of the UK and I think it is a reasonable thing to do. I was going

:59:00.:59:04.

to quote a Major who stated in the Guardian on 28th September, state

:59:05.:59:08.

that the Trident nuclear weapon sows emat the should not be ringfenced

:59:09.:59:14.

and the cost should be weighed up against new planes, tanks and

:59:15.:59:18.

infantry. After my moral objection to the system, we need to look at

:59:19.:59:22.

the forces. I will take one more. I'm very

:59:23.:59:27.

grateful and his narrative stacks up, if you are in the realm of

:59:28.:59:34.

debate of awe. It has to be this or that H -- realm of debate of "or."

:59:35.:59:40.

At the moment, Madame Deputy Speaker, we are able to support our

:59:41.:59:43.

conventional services as well as. Aren't we better, aren't we belter

:59:44.:59:48.

to have two plugs in the bag, rather than just one? The point that was

:59:49.:59:53.

raised is I don't think we are doing enough on the side of the

:59:54.:59:57.

conventional. I think we should be doing more. Yesterday we saw

:59:58.:00:00.

frigates being cut. I would like to see us going forward and

:00:01.:00:02.

strengthening conventional forces. My point really to finish on is the

:00:03.:00:12.

replacement of these weapons, as outlined in the National Security

:00:13.:00:15.

Strategy, we should be investing in conventional forces, equipment and

:00:16.:00:20.

intelligence and counterespionage and combatting cyber terrorism and

:00:21.:00:25.

terrorism. I implore the House to consider what threats this weapons

:00:26.:00:30.

system actually combats and support the rejection of Trident as a system

:00:31.:00:40.

for replacement. Thank you. Ronnie Cowan Thank you, Madame Deputy

:00:41.:00:47.

Speaker, Trident is a term often described used to describe the

:00:48.:00:56.

nuclear's entire nuclear weapons. Each war head has eight times

:00:57.:01:01.

capacity to kill and destroy. Each submarine has 16 missiles tubes

:01:02.:01:07.

which makes it capable of carrying 192 warheads perves yeshlings 192,

:01:08.:01:12.

times eight, if deployed as perhi orb marks equates to killing 61

:01:13.:01:17.

million people. Four submarines, that's gross 250 million deaths. Of

:01:18.:01:24.

course it could be far worse than that. -- as per Hiroshima. For those

:01:25.:01:32.

not killed. Starvation would follow. The UK Government is saying it is

:01:33.:01:37.

prepared to inflict this fate on millions of innocent civilians if it

:01:38.:01:41.

was deemed necessary Madam domety speaker, nobody can win a nuclear

:01:42.:01:46.

war. An extreme of nuclear weapons to lead to a level devastation that

:01:47.:01:51.

neither side could recover from. Indeed the planet would never

:01:52.:01:54.

recover. I acknowledge we have imposed limits on the use of these

:01:55.:01:58.

weapons which come as little comfort to the dead and dying. It is a

:01:59.:02:05.

maximum 40 warheads, obviously sitting in the atmosphere of

:02:06.:02:09.

Westminster playing war games, somebody decided 39 wasn't enough

:02:10.:02:13.

and 41, well that would be plain barbaric. The only rational thought

:02:14.:02:19.

that can justified the renewal of Trident, if one genuinely believed

:02:20.:02:23.

the existence of Trident was in some way, shape or form was contributing

:02:24.:02:28.

to a much more peaceful world. Since World War Two, the nuclear deterrent

:02:29.:02:32.

hasn't stopped wars in Veet nap, Iraq, Afghanistan, the Falklands and

:02:33.:02:36.

20 or 30 more I could list. -- Vietnam. It hasn't deterred

:02:37.:02:41.

terrorist attacks in London, Tunisia, Mali, New York. If nuclear

:02:42.:02:47.

weapons are inned adequate in preventing these wars, what threat

:02:48.:02:51.

does it address and who does it deter? -- are not adequate. The

:02:52.:02:57.

honourable gentleman's argument is like saying that just because the

:02:58.:03:05.

antidote to one deadly disease, is ineffective against other deadly

:03:06.:03:07.

disease, you shouldn't have T We use time, enknewity fighting

:03:08.:03:17.

deadly diseases, instead of creating weapons of mass destruction, the

:03:18.:03:20.

world would be a better place today. Quite right. The former Defence

:03:21.:03:25.

Secretary, Des Browne, a former advisor to Parliament has said, and

:03:26.:03:30.

it has become clear, for example, that the long-term threats have

:03:31.:03:34.

emerged to which deterrents, nuclear or otherwise are not apolitical.

:03:35.:03:38.

Michael Portillo has said our independent nuclear deterrent is not

:03:39.:03:43.

independent and doesn't constitute a deterrent against anybody that we

:03:44.:03:47.

regard as an enemy. It is a waste of money. I agree with the honourable

:03:48.:03:53.

member from Reigate when he said the programme will consume more than

:03:54.:03:57.

double the proportion of the defence budget of his predecessor. The price

:03:58.:04:01.

required from the UK taxpayer and conventional forces is too high to

:04:02.:04:05.

be rational or sensible. However, I am in the naive. I know that there

:04:06.:04:10.

are dangers in the world, the sort of threats we need to address would

:04:11.:04:18.

not be Plaicated by Trident. The UK Government has identified terrorism,

:04:19.:04:21.

cybercrime, pandemics, natural disasters, foreign instability and

:04:22.:04:23.

foreign conflicts as our primary risk in the next five years. Trident

:04:24.:04:28.

will not solve any of these issues. In the meantime, Scotland's coasts

:04:29.:04:32.

continues to be poorly guarded and our maritime reconnaissance is poor.

:04:33.:04:36.

I'm aware that the UK. Government is finally committed to new maritime

:04:37.:04:45.

patrol figures but the capability will remain not until 2020. And the

:04:46.:04:52.

renewal of Trident has come at the expense of defence jobs in Scotland.

:04:53.:04:59.

Cuts in Scotland have been measured to 29.7%. Compared to 11% across the

:05:00.:05:08.

UK. Between July 2014 and July 2015, personnel numbers in Scotland

:05:09.:05:14.

dropped again A lifetime cost of ?167 billion, it is clear that try

:05:15.:05:18.

department makes no economic sense. It solves none of our pressing

:05:19.:05:23.

foreign policy priorities and it is draining resources from our

:05:24.:05:25.

conventional forces. Try accident not the solution, it is very much

:05:26.:05:31.

part of the problem. Here, here. I'm very sorry to say before I call the

:05:32.:05:36.

next three for speakers who want to catch my eye. I'm going to drop the

:05:37.:05:41.

speech limit down to three minutes in order to accommodate everybody.

:05:42.:05:48.

Can I congratulate the how many for his so you spesh speech. I'm pleased

:05:49.:05:52.

the follow him. I'm speaking not for the Labour Party but myself. I'm

:05:53.:05:56.

lifelong unilateral nuclear disarmament. I haven't changed my

:05:57.:06:00.

view one jot. I hope our commission comes to the same position as my se.

:06:01.:06:04.

I know there are members of the Parliamentary Labour Party who take

:06:05.:06:07.

the same view as myself, maybe a minority, we don't know but I know

:06:08.:06:11.

there are tens of thousands of Labour Party members outside this

:06:12.:06:14.

House and indeed millions of fell yes citizens who take our view and

:06:15.:06:18.

not the view that seems to have the majority in the House today. I'm

:06:19.:06:21.

actually, as it happens, the vice chair of parliamentary CND. At one

:06:22.:06:26.

time I was national Chair of trade union CND. I marched frommed aer

:06:27.:06:30.

March many years ago in a column of tens of thousands of people led by

:06:31.:06:36.

people like Frank Cousins and Barbara cap castle and answer Tony

:06:37.:06:43.

Greenwood and Tony Benn in the movement for unilateral disarmament.

:06:44.:06:51.

It has been said, nuclear weapons are an object sudden abomination.

:06:52.:06:58.

It co-kill people and maim thousands more. Any sane person would say they

:06:59.:07:03.

have to G I'm not convinced our fellow Europeans in Germany, Italy,

:07:04.:07:07.

Spain, would be voting majority for us to keep our nuclear weapons,

:07:08.:07:11.

would they, I do not know but I suspect not. One day I think we will

:07:12.:07:18.

get, win the unilateralist argument in Britain and we will get rid of

:07:19.:07:22.

them. To touch on the word about jobs. Jobs - of course it has been

:07:23.:07:27.

said by the honourable lady from Argyll and Bute, an excellent speech

:07:28.:07:30.

again about replacing the jobs. It is easy. Jobs, it is not about the

:07:31.:07:34.

existence, it is about what the jobs make. If we have people who are

:07:35.:07:38.

making thumb screws, we would say those jobs are not right. We would

:07:39.:07:42.

replace them with something more benign than thumb screws. Nuclear

:07:43.:07:47.

weapons are much more horrific than thumb screws but we have to think

:07:48.:07:50.

what people are doing with their jobs, not just the jobs themselves.

:07:51.:07:56.

We could replace the jobs with, I think, convexal weaponry. Our forces

:07:57.:08:01.

are under resourced, as we know now, and indeed we have heard from the

:08:02.:08:07.

honourable lady from Argyll and Bute that already military experts are

:08:08.:08:10.

saying and people in the forces are saying we need to spend the money

:08:11.:08:14.

not on new clear weapons but on conventional forces, which we

:08:15.:08:19.

fwhooed, I think more ships, perhaps, and the jobs in Barrow and

:08:20.:08:24.

Furness could be provided for. Producing new ships and so on but

:08:25.:08:31.

also, I think decommissioning the existent Trident nuclear submarines,

:08:32.:08:35.

further than not just renewing you about but decommissioning and that

:08:36.:08:38.

would give work for some years to come on itself. There are many

:08:39.:08:42.

arguments which if we had more time I would like to go into.

:08:43.:08:45.

That's all for now. Thank you. Caroline Lucas. Thank you very much.

:08:46.:08:51.

And thank you to my SNP colleagues for securing this important debate.

:08:52.:08:54.

Before I get into the substance of what I want to say in the brief time

:08:55.:09:00.

I want to put on the record my party's position, since how manies

:09:01.:09:03.

have been chal Epping one another to be clear. For the voidance of doubt,

:09:04.:09:07.

my party believes nuclear weapons, the possession and willingness to

:09:08.:09:12.

lose them is I will Lille, immoral and a grotesque diversion of

:09:13.:09:15.

resources from the real threats we face. Let's focus on the misguided

:09:16.:09:18.

claim that if you clear weapons make us safer. I would argue they do not.

:09:19.:09:23.

I'm in the alone. Last year under the um brel University European

:09:24.:09:32.

leadership network, senior military, political and -- umbrella of the

:09:33.:09:36.

European leadership, the former Defence Secretary, former security

:09:37.:09:40.

secretary, a lot of people game together with the explicit aim of

:09:41.:09:44.

"shining a light on the risk posed by nuclear weapons." Reporting in

:09:45.:09:47.

advance of the third international conference on the humanitarian

:09:48.:09:51.

impact they warned, "We believe the risks pose bid nuclear weapons and

:09:52.:09:55.

the international dynamics that could lead to nuclear weapons being

:09:56.:10:00.

used are insufficiently understood by world leaders." I couldn't agree

:10:01.:10:06.

more and that would be true of our Prime Minister today.

:10:07.:10:11.

In his "They are the ultimate insurance in an uncertain world."

:10:12.:10:15.

But he fails to be a necessary oir possession of nuclear weapons in

:10:16.:10:21.

contro tra vention of the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty is

:10:22.:10:23.

exacerbating that uncertainty and leading to the scenario he is keen

:10:24.:10:27.

to avoid. The Secretary of State said we live in an uncertain world.

:10:28.:10:32.

We do but the logic of his argument must be every other country in the

:10:33.:10:39.

world should also seek to be protecting their requirements by the

:10:40.:10:42.

acquirement of nuclear weapons. Does he think that level of proliferation

:10:43.:10:45.

will make us safer? I don't think so. By keeping and upgrading nuclear

:10:46.:10:49.

weapons, we are sending a signal to the rest of the world that security

:10:50.:10:53.

is dependent on the acquisition of nuclear weapons, in the words of

:10:54.:11:01.

Byeong-Hun An, depsh of Kofi Annan those hoin cyst such weapons are

:11:02.:11:07.

essential to national security, then the more other states must deal they

:11:08.:11:11.

too have them. -- this can only make us more

:11:12.:11:16.

unsafe: under the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty our

:11:17.:11:22.

Government has a doubty to pursue flee,s in good faith on effective

:11:23.:11:25.

measures relating to the cessation of the nuclear arms race. Replacing

:11:26.:11:30.

the Trident system means comieting the UK to maintain an arsenal of

:11:31.:11:34.

nuclear weapons for decades to am could, in Coentra vention to that

:11:35.:11:36.

MPT Nuclear weapons are a diversion from

:11:37.:11:53.

the real threats that we face. We should get rid of them now. Thank

:11:54.:11:59.

you. I rise to some up for my party after a debate which falls in the

:12:00.:12:03.

week where we heard the government outlined it plans will -- for

:12:04.:12:12.

defence spending. One of the messages that struck me yesterday

:12:13.:12:16.

was when the Prime Minister announced that strident doesn't

:12:17.:12:23.

squeeze out other defence expenditure. -- Trident doesn't. We

:12:24.:12:29.

had a thorough debate today. It has been very interesting to listen to

:12:30.:12:33.

all contributions, whether I agreed or not. I echo the thoughts of the

:12:34.:12:39.

honourable member New Forest East, who was very clear on as having

:12:40.:12:47.

those discussions. I was elected on a very clear platform of a stronger

:12:48.:12:52.

voice for Scotland, standing up against austerity and always

:12:53.:12:56.

opposing the renewal of weapons of mass destruction. I'm not surprised

:12:57.:13:00.

to hear enthusiasm from the benches opposite and members such as the

:13:01.:13:08.

members for Tonbridge and Malling. It's disappointing, but it is

:13:09.:13:13.

clear. I am disappointed to see anti Labour benches. As was noted by

:13:14.:13:20.

another member. That can only be because they are not clear on their

:13:21.:13:29.

possession. Is it the position of cosier Dugdale? Or the members who

:13:30.:13:34.

don't? Or is it the member for Islington who opposes Trident? Or is

:13:35.:13:48.

it something else? -- Kezia Dugdale. Another reason for their absence,

:13:49.:13:52.

according to the papers, was because they have all been told to campaign

:13:53.:13:58.

in Oldham West. So the fear of losing a by-election is for them,

:13:59.:14:03.

far more important than the defence of the realm. Thank you for his

:14:04.:14:12.

intervention. I have nothing to comment. The member's

:14:13.:14:20.

characterisation of this debate as a "stunt" is an edifying. Our position

:14:21.:14:28.

could not be clearer. It is reasonable and appropriate that we

:14:29.:14:32.

should seek a debate on this matter. The only stance going on will be the

:14:33.:14:38.

mental acrobatics of people getting their head around the ever-changing

:14:39.:14:44.

labour position. This is an important discussion and I fully

:14:45.:14:51.

welcomed their participation in this debate. My friend opened this

:14:52.:14:56.

debate. He is the member representing the very constituency

:14:57.:15:00.

where the nuclear weapons are housed. His powerful speech should

:15:01.:15:04.

be listened to by all honourable members. He pointed out the

:15:05.:15:09.

astonishing and rocketing cost of Trident and anyone watching the TV

:15:10.:15:15.

yesterday will noticed the cost going up with each news bulletin.

:15:16.:15:23.

And I must commend another with his comments about nuclear safety.

:15:24.:15:32.

Clearly, others are sincere in their views of the merit of nuclear

:15:33.:15:41.

weapons. However, I cannot agree with their assertions. That is that

:15:42.:15:49.

nuclear weapons are justified against today's threats. Another --

:15:50.:15:58.

whilst I didn't agree with another member from South East Cornwall, and

:15:59.:16:03.

whilst she said she wouldn't push the button, I appreciate her

:16:04.:16:11.

thoughtful tone and manner. I did not say that. Thank you for her

:16:12.:16:19.

intervention. I am new clearer about what her position on that is. I

:16:20.:16:25.

appreciate her intervening. I think her measured approach to her earlier

:16:26.:16:30.

contribution was in contrast to her colleague, who converted it to try

:16:31.:16:39.

-- compared Trident to" a burglar alarm". I thank others for the tone

:16:40.:16:46.

they brought to the debate. I was disappointed by another member, who

:16:47.:16:52.

suggested that opposition to Trident was a narrow nationalist issue. I

:16:53.:16:57.

disagree, it concerns everyone of us. And I was appalled at the

:16:58.:17:00.

comments and tone of the name-calling contributions. His

:17:01.:17:08.

contributions added absolutely nothing constructive to today. I do

:17:09.:17:13.

thank the honourable member for Luton North, who made a constructive

:17:14.:17:22.

speech. And another for a compelling and insightful speech and her

:17:23.:17:28.

thoughts on the legality of the use of Trident. The honourable member

:17:29.:17:44.

for Orkney and Shetland, I cannot support his call, but it is

:17:45.:17:48.

important to have another Scottish representative taking part today.

:17:49.:17:55.

And it is regrettable that others are not able to make this debate. I

:17:56.:18:01.

was struck by the remarks of focusing on the dangers of nuclear

:18:02.:18:06.

weapons and another who questioned the independence of the nuclear

:18:07.:18:15.

weapons we hold. I have recently met with atom bomb survivors and the

:18:16.:18:19.

Mayor of Hiroshima. The message is that these people who have been

:18:20.:18:23.

directly affected by these weapons is clear. I wish the honourable

:18:24.:18:30.

members who supported it had been able to join me to hear from them

:18:31.:18:34.

what the impact on real people really is. The points made in the

:18:35.:18:41.

powerful speech by another member that known one cannot win a nuclear

:18:42.:18:48.

war are well made and I can only applaud his sentiments. -- no one

:18:49.:18:55.

can win. It will become a steady drain on the defence budget. It will

:18:56.:19:05.

compete and this will be rather than the needs of the Armed Forces. I

:19:06.:19:18.

have two wonder why this same logic was not obliged to Nimrod, which the

:19:19.:19:23.

government broke up. That left us with no maritime patrol aircraft. As

:19:24.:19:31.

another member said, that is a strange and worrying and very skewed

:19:32.:19:36.

logic. And another pointed out that the deterrent is just not dealing

:19:37.:19:39.

with our current threats and it doesn't stack up. In the context of

:19:40.:19:45.

capped defence budget, this does not make sense. As we can see by the

:19:46.:19:51.

member for Gainsborough. There is no doubt that we will see areas which

:19:52.:19:58.

the government simply expects our Armed Forces to do less in. People

:19:59.:20:04.

in Scotland are clear there is determined national opposition to

:20:05.:20:09.

the renewal of Trident. 57 out of 59th MP representing Scottish

:20:10.:20:17.

constituencies are in opposition. As we heard, this Conservative

:20:18.:20:21.

government has no mandate to oppose the moral views of the people of

:20:22.:20:25.

Scotland. It shows a wilful disregard for the people of Scotland

:20:26.:20:29.

and the message they send him from the ballot box. No wonder the people

:20:30.:20:34.

of Scotland do not care with the UK Government because of that

:20:35.:20:41.

disregard. -- for the UK Government. Thank you. I am pleased

:20:42.:20:47.

to follow the honourable lady. I think in her debut, winding up for

:20:48.:20:51.

her party, so I congratulate her for that. This has been a well-informed

:20:52.:20:58.

and passionate debate. And rightly so, because the strategic deterrent

:20:59.:21:04.

forms a key part of the defence of the realm. This government is

:21:05.:21:09.

committed to maintaining and a short deterrent, clearly stated in our

:21:10.:21:13.

manifesto, on which this government was elected for the whole of the

:21:14.:21:17.

United Kingdom. The argument she has just made that we should respect the

:21:18.:21:21.

wishes of the Scottish people, indeed we should take this into

:21:22.:21:25.

account, that the argument is the same. As was made by the then leader

:21:26.:21:32.

of the London Crater council, who declared London a nuclear free zone.

:21:33.:21:40.

-- greater council. It is not an argument that we can respect,

:21:41.:21:46.

because we have responsibility for the government of the United Kingdom

:21:47.:21:49.

as a whole. We are committed to build four new nuclear armed

:21:50.:21:58.

submarines, to replace the current class. Not replacing the Trident

:21:59.:22:04.

missile. As we have pointed out earlier, this debate subject is not

:22:05.:22:11.

strictly what is at stake today. What we are talking about is in

:22:12.:22:16.

reality whether or not to replace the submarine class, not the missile

:22:17.:22:22.

system. Why do we stand by this commitment? As the Secretary of

:22:23.:22:25.

State said, this is about being realistic. We do not live in an

:22:26.:22:32.

ideal world. Our deterrent is there to deter the most extreme threats to

:22:33.:22:37.

our national security and way of life. Those threats, however much

:22:38.:22:42.

people might wish it were otherwise, have not gone away. The national

:22:43.:22:46.

security review, published yesterday, shows that if anything

:22:47.:22:49.

they are growing and becoming more complex and more diverse by the day.

:22:50.:22:55.

And we as a nation, under the previous Coalition Government, took

:22:56.:22:59.

steps to reduce our nuclear arsenals. We reduce the number of

:23:00.:23:05.

deployed warheads from 48 to 40. Yet other nations with nuclear weapons

:23:06.:23:15.

have not responded to that unilateral action. They need to

:23:16.:23:17.

follow our example and those nations without nuclear weapons should cease

:23:18.:23:20.

all nations to obtain them. Those who wish to gamble with the

:23:21.:23:25.

nation's security do so without any foresight of what the world might be

:23:26.:23:30.

like in decades to come. I have very little time. I have very little

:23:31.:23:37.

time. Our. Thanks to the brave service of so money of our valiant

:23:38.:23:48.

personnel. Even the husband of the honourable lady she referred to

:23:49.:23:53.

yesterday, who I believe is now retired. I respect his service. The

:23:54.:24:01.

fact we have this deterrent so is the seeds of doubt in our potential

:24:02.:24:11.

adversaries. As my friend emphasised, it works as it provides

:24:12.:24:17.

the ability to strike back. It also provides another decision-making

:24:18.:24:22.

centre within the Nato alliance and complicates and confuses an enemy's

:24:23.:24:27.

calculations. Finally, there is no alternative. The 2013 Trident

:24:28.:24:31.

alternative to review was very clear, despite the recollection of

:24:32.:24:40.

my friend that if we are to have a cost-effective way of delivering the

:24:41.:24:45.

minimum deterrent, then successor is the only viable solution. And the

:24:46.:24:49.

ramifications of removing it would be immense. Putting at risk our

:24:50.:24:54.

national security and our position in Nato, the cornerstone of our

:24:55.:25:00.

defence,, but our economy, skills base and jobs across the UK. I will

:25:01.:25:06.

give way. If you would come back to me about the change that is

:25:07.:25:11.

happening in the industry that it will not affect their jobs across

:25:12.:25:16.

the supply chain. Some of the comments that have been made.

:25:17.:25:20.

Firstly, I would like to address the fantasy figures put forward by the

:25:21.:25:29.

defence spokesman for the SNP. They conjured up out of nowhere that if

:25:30.:25:35.

the deterrent was to exist, Scotland would benefit by ?15 million from

:25:36.:25:41.

not spending. The cost of replacing, as identified yesterday,

:25:42.:25:49.

is ?31 billion, spread over decades. Over some 30 years. Therefore, the

:25:50.:25:54.

idea of a much larger figure is not correct.

:25:55.:26:01.

I would like to welcome his apparent admission that in the event the

:26:02.:26:18.

deterrent was to be decommissioned, Scotland would take its share of the

:26:19.:26:20.

nuclear decommissioning risk and location of nuclear material. That

:26:21.:26:23.

is very welcome indeed and is in stark contrast to the responses we

:26:24.:26:27.

have had from the Scottish Government. He also indicated no

:26:28.:26:31.

willingness to acknowledge that there is any potential threat from

:26:32.:26:37.

nuclear powered nations and he was challenged and failed to provide an

:26:38.:26:40.

answer as to what the potential threat might be from Russia despite

:26:41.:26:45.

the fact that every time there is an incursion into either air or sea

:26:46.:26:52.

space, the members of the Scottish National Party are the first to jump

:26:53.:26:57.

up and say, what we doing about it? It seems they have double standards.

:26:58.:27:02.

There has been no increase in nuclear weaponry in this country.

:27:03.:27:06.

Far from it. Nuclear weapons numbers have declined. In response to the

:27:07.:27:16.

honourable member for Chesterfield, I can confirm to him that, as for as

:27:17.:27:24.

the governments is concerned about implementing delivery organisation

:27:25.:27:28.

to make sure we deliver the success programme, this will remain subject

:27:29.:27:35.

to oversight from the Ministry of Defence. We are in the process of

:27:36.:27:40.

working out how we best learn the lessons of delivering major

:27:41.:27:46.

procurement projects like the aircraft carrier Alliance to get the

:27:47.:27:52.

industry properly aligned to get the ministry and delivery organisations

:27:53.:27:54.

properly aligned to work in partnership to deliver this vital

:27:55.:28:04.

programme. He said he will have oversight from the Ministry of

:28:05.:28:08.

Defence. Does that mean the Ministry of Defence will lead it? The

:28:09.:28:17.

Ministry of Defence... This will report through the MoD's structures

:28:18.:28:22.

and the Treasury will take their interest in the delivery of major

:28:23.:28:26.

programmes as they do in all of our category a programmes. This will be

:28:27.:28:32.

the largest of these. We have had contributions from a number of

:28:33.:28:36.

members across the House and they have been well recognised by the

:28:37.:28:40.

honourable lady opposite so I don't have time, I regret, to thank

:28:41.:28:44.

members for contributing. What I would just say by way of conclusion

:28:45.:28:50.

is that it was welcome to see consensus between most of the

:28:51.:28:54.

contributions from the official opposition and the contributions on

:28:55.:28:59.

this side of the House. I recognise that many of those who stood up have

:29:00.:29:06.

done so with courage in speaking in their beliefs and the importance of

:29:07.:29:14.

our strategic deterrence. The former mayor of London co-convened a Labour

:29:15.:29:27.

review into the strategic deterrent. The honourable manner for

:29:28.:29:29.

Chesterfield did his best but even he was unable to make clear what

:29:30.:29:33.

this review was four, who was in charge and what difference it will

:29:34.:29:37.

make. Heaven knows will emerge from the review. We might get a clue from

:29:38.:29:41.

the vote imminently but I was astonished to learn from the

:29:42.:29:44.

opposition spokesman that he does not regard it as appropriate to vote

:29:45.:29:49.

on this motion in Parliament today. May I say to those Labour members

:29:50.:29:55.

who share my concerns to maintain continuous deterrence, let your

:29:56.:29:59.

conscious guide you into the right division lobby this afternoon. I

:30:00.:30:02.

urge members of the House on all sides to do the right things for the

:30:03.:30:07.

whole of the UK, not just for today, but for tomorrow, and restore the

:30:08.:30:11.

consensus that has kept us safe for decades. The question is as on the

:30:12.:30:24.

order paper. Division. Clear the lobbies.

:30:25.:38:28.

Order. Order. The ayes to the right, 64. The noes, to the left.

:38:29.:42:45.

330. The ayes to the right, 64. The noes to the left, 330. The noes have

:42:46.:42:53.

it. The noes have it. Unlock. We now come to the second opposition date

:42:54.:42:59.

motion. Relating to HMRC office closures. I call her to move the

:43:00.:43:10.

motion. Thank you. And I rise to speak to the S NP motion against

:43:11.:43:21.

these closures. And the rest of the UK. The government's recent

:43:22.:43:25.

announcement of the plant closures of 137 officers as Dresden -- is

:43:26.:43:34.

driven by the drive to drive down austerity cuts. HMRC employs 8330

:43:35.:43:45.

people across Scotland. This is 13% of all HMRC staff. And while we

:43:46.:43:50.

still do not have the full information of how many jobs will be

:43:51.:43:55.

lost, the BBC have reported... I will be happy to give way. Thank

:43:56.:44:02.

you. Does she agree with me that it was a Democratic outreach that the

:44:03.:44:04.

government had produced a statement on this during a parliamentary

:44:05.:44:16.

recess? I thank him and I couldn't agree more. More evidence of the

:44:17.:44:20.

lack of respect for Scotland and Scottish workers. As I was saying,

:44:21.:44:26.

the BBC have reported that it could be over 2000 jobs in Scotland that

:44:27.:44:32.

will be lost. And we have no detail. With your indulgence, let me list of

:44:33.:44:39.

the range of officers set to close. In Aberdeen, we have an office

:44:40.:44:46.

closing by 2021. In Bathgate and Livingstone, by 2020. Two offices to

:44:47.:44:52.

close in Dundee. Three offices to close in East Kilbride. Two large

:44:53.:45:02.

offices to close in Glasgow macro. And to consolidate into one large

:45:03.:45:08.

one. I will be happy to give way. The motion also refers to throughout

:45:09.:45:14.

the UK. Does she have the statistics for the whole UK, as well as

:45:15.:45:21.

Scotland? I don't to hand but I will be happy to hear his views and

:45:22.:45:25.

discuss further with him. We also have an office shouting in

:45:26.:45:34.

Inverness. These closures are distressing news for the employees,

:45:35.:45:37.

their families and the communities affected. The closure is included in

:45:38.:45:45.

my own constituency. We must remember that it affects individual

:45:46.:45:54.

people, that I have met and my colleagues have. Many have proudly

:45:55.:46:00.

worked in their roles for up to 30 years. Many have spent their whole

:46:01.:46:05.

careers in their local HMRC offices. Three of the Scottish centre is set

:46:06.:46:13.

for closure employ staff who issued specific guidance to the public on

:46:14.:46:22.

access and eligible as -- eligibility for tax credits. It is

:46:23.:46:27.

unthinkable that this support will be withdrawn. These austerity

:46:28.:46:33.

measures will see government for government departments suffer. They

:46:34.:46:35.

will be reduced at the hands of the Chancellor, who continues to cut,

:46:36.:46:41.

despite the advice of many academics. Only yesterday, a report

:46:42.:46:45.

said that George Osborne could be forced to borrow billions of pounds

:46:46.:46:51.

more than forecast if he keeps on. The two academics from city

:46:52.:46:59.

University estimated that by 2020, the government will have a 40

:47:00.:47:05.

billion deficit. That would undermined the fiscal charter, that

:47:06.:47:09.

they only borrow in times of distress. Despite the context she

:47:10.:47:14.

just said outcome of the difficult economic circumstances. Will she

:47:15.:47:23.

welcomed the new jobs in Cardiff that will be open to that? That is

:47:24.:47:29.

good news for your constituency. But I want to know what the Chancellor

:47:30.:47:34.

has to say to those in Scotland, who will lose their local tax offices.

:47:35.:47:42.

This Chancellor's attempt to run an absolute surplus is not working and

:47:43.:47:48.

is not credible. We were elected on a manifesto that offered an

:47:49.:47:55.

alternative. It would have injected ?140 billion into the economy, and

:47:56.:48:00.

our cut relations. The closure of the officers have a disproportionate

:48:01.:48:04.

effect on Scotland, with the vast majority of ring fenced Department

:48:05.:48:15.

is lying outside Scotland. It was the Scotland left with no HMRC

:48:16.:48:19.

offices beyond the central bolt. These plans have failed to

:48:20.:48:26.

understand the needs of the Scottish economy. Beyond the centre, we have

:48:27.:48:33.

a wide range of industries. Many of these industries rely on the

:48:34.:48:42.

opportunity to work with local tax offices. I will give way. I have not

:48:43.:48:52.

spoken yet. As a former resident of the great city of Aberdeen, she will

:48:53.:48:56.

understand the complexity of the industry that relies very heavily on

:48:57.:49:01.

contractors and the need for specialist tax advice. Could she

:49:02.:49:06.

explain the distance between Aberdeen and Edinburgh, but people

:49:07.:49:14.

making the decision, must think is down the road? I welcome that

:49:15.:49:21.

statement. These are complexities that the departments don't seem to

:49:22.:49:26.

appreciate. The world of work is changing. Many people are starting

:49:27.:49:30.

to develop their own small businesses. Women are choosing to

:49:31.:49:36.

take charge of their own businesses. A network of good tax support is

:49:37.:49:41.

essential. That is if they are to thrive. I was recently visited by a

:49:42.:49:47.

constituent who has a farming business and he impressed upon me

:49:48.:49:51.

the importance of HMRC services. For industries such as farming, who

:49:52.:50:01.

often operate a year in arrears to very tight margins, my colleagues

:50:02.:50:08.

have very high concerns about them. I will be happy to give way. I

:50:09.:50:15.

called my local tax offices today to see if I could pop in to speak to

:50:16.:50:22.

them. For the last year, you cannot speak to them face to face. You can

:50:23.:50:29.

only do it by phone it is regional or not makes no difference. He makes

:50:30.:50:36.

my point very well. John Allen said our members have repeatedly told us

:50:37.:50:45.

about members getting help from HMRC. It is often hampered by poor

:50:46.:50:56.

broadband connectivity. And long waiting times. This modernisation

:50:57.:51:01.

programme must bring efficiency savings, but members will be

:51:02.:51:07.

concerned that it will compound existing problems. The government

:51:08.:51:11.

needs to reassure businesses that disruption is kept to a minimum.

:51:12.:51:16.

This should be used by HMRC to deliver services that are easy to

:51:17.:51:21.

access, provide help tailored to small businesses and provide

:51:22.:51:26.

certainty. If the Chancellor won't listen to the SNP, perhaps people

:51:27.:51:31.

listen to the Federation of Small Businesses. We know these closures

:51:32.:51:35.

have been happening for some time. In March 2013, the government said

:51:36.:51:42.

it was closing 281 enquiry Centres. And it was reported that 1300 jobs

:51:43.:51:48.

would be lost. Plans to streamline them, through the use of telephone

:51:49.:51:57.

consultations were piloted in 2012. Then again, in 2014, HMRC announced

:51:58.:52:02.

plans to close 14 offices across the UK by December 2015. This would

:52:03.:52:13.

affect 690 administrative employees. And civil servants. The

:52:14.:52:17.

Public Accounts Committee of this house said in the first half of

:52:18.:52:22.

2015, following the closures, only 50% of calls were answered by the

:52:23.:52:29.

HMRC. Down from 73% in the last financial year. In relation to this,

:52:30.:52:38.

the PCS branch chairman said this is baffling. HMRC have trained staff

:52:39.:52:44.

doing an excellent job, handling more calls than they can. This sends

:52:45.:52:50.

the message message that Dundee doesn't feature in the long term

:52:51.:52:55.

plan. She is being generous with her time. In the uplands of a Scottish

:52:56.:53:01.

independence, in the view of her party, what was the detailed

:53:02.:53:05.

analysis which they as a government would put into place as to the

:53:06.:53:10.

quantum of HMRC staff and the quantum of offices they would a

:53:11.:53:17.

new, independent Scotland? He is getting a little ahead of himself. I

:53:18.:53:23.

will be coming onto that matter in a moment. Ironically, during the

:53:24.:53:30.

referendum, many argued that an independent Scotland would result in

:53:31.:53:36.

job losses in public services. It was lauded as the union dividend. We

:53:37.:53:42.

were told by the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, Danny Alexander, as he

:53:43.:53:48.

was then, who is sadly no longer in his place, was that it wouldn't

:53:49.:53:56.

work. The Scottish Labour Party tweeted about jobs in July and told

:53:57.:54:02.

us that 3200 jobs at HMRC was just one of the reasons that being part

:54:03.:54:06.

of the UK was best for Scottish jobs. Many are dependent on off

:54:07.:54:15.

staying in the UK. That is not the case. I will hope that those who

:54:16.:54:22.

will have constituencies affected will now think carefully and think

:54:23.:54:26.

about who can be trusted. That is when it comes to jobs in Scotland.

:54:27.:54:35.

The gaffe was estimated to be ?34 billion. -- gap was. Some 16 and a

:54:36.:54:47.

half billion followed by large businesses. We in the SMP take the

:54:48.:54:58.

view that the large majority want to contribute. -- the S NP. The

:54:59.:55:05.

government's plans to slash 137 officers will have a knock on impact

:55:06.:55:16.

on the ability of small businesses to get tax advice. I would like to

:55:17.:55:24.

thank others who gathered immediately after the announcement.

:55:25.:55:30.

Gary and his PCS colleagues are working hard to engage with staff in

:55:31.:55:36.

offices in West Lothian and have talked about morale and other issues

:55:37.:55:42.

that I have highlighted in my speech. It cannot go without mention

:55:43.:55:49.

how important these unions are. This government has marched ahead, which

:55:50.:55:53.

would mean the vital work our unions do, would be made ever more

:55:54.:55:58.

difficult. Never has it been more obvious all vital that we must have

:55:59.:56:02.

good engagement with our workforce that deliver vital public services,

:56:03.:56:04.

including those... I will give way. I know that the honourable lady is

:56:05.:56:23.

just storing up the best until last. In the meantime, thank you very much

:56:24.:56:27.

and thank you to the honourable lady. We have a serious issue in

:56:28.:56:35.

Northern Ireland. We are the only part of the UK which gives rise to

:56:36.:56:42.

fuel smuggling and the loss of the huge amount of revenue along the

:56:43.:56:46.

border with the Republic of Ireland. The closures to be

:56:47.:56:51.

announced H RC offices in Northern Ireland has got very serious

:56:52.:56:54.

consequences. I wonder if the honourable lady would like to

:56:55.:56:58.

reflect upon that. And before she calls upon someone else to

:56:59.:57:04.

intervene! I thank the honourable lady for her intervention and I

:57:05.:57:09.

share your concerns. I know those concerns will be shared across

:57:10.:57:13.

Scotland in other parts of the UK. My local representative spoke of

:57:14.:57:17.

what they felt was a perfect storm brewing. The great pressure we put

:57:18.:57:22.

on our public services and the more we squeeze them, the more likely

:57:23.:57:28.

breakdowns in the system. I will finish up. I am sure you can keep

:57:29.:57:32.

his intervention for other colleagues will come in. I urge all

:57:33.:57:38.

parties to support our motion and ask this Tory government in the

:57:39.:57:41.

strongest terms to think again on this nonsensical and ill-conceived

:57:42.:57:55.

HMO closures. I am delighted to be able to respond to this debate

:57:56.:58:00.

because protecting the country's tax revenues is a key part of this

:58:01.:58:04.

government's economic plan and because we have already made great

:58:05.:58:07.

steps forward in modernising the way taxes collected. The changes

:58:08.:58:14.

announced on the 12th of November are an important part of Her

:58:15.:58:20.

Majesty's Revenue and Customs programme designed to create a

:58:21.:58:24.

modern, efficient organisation that continues to protect this country's

:58:25.:58:30.

tax revenues. Modernising and improving the efficiency of HMRC and

:58:31.:58:34.

enabling them to better tackle inflation, drive down a modern,

:58:35.:58:35.

efficient organisation that continues to protect this country's

:58:36.:58:37.

tax revenues. Modernising and improving the efficiency of HMRC and

:58:38.:58:39.

enabling them to better tackle inflation, drive down the summer

:58:40.:58:54.

budget, which will help HMO see recover an additional ?7.2 billion.

:58:55.:59:00.

As a result, we have succeeded in driving down the tax cap from 7.3%

:59:01.:59:11.

in 2009-10 to 6.4% in 2013-14. This represents an additional ?14.5

:59:12.:59:16.

billion in cumulative tax collected. Over the last Parliament, HMRC

:59:17.:59:22.

secured ?100 billion in additional compliance yield including a record

:59:23.:59:30.

level of ?26.6 billion in 2014-15. But we have also made important cost

:59:31.:59:34.

reductions to the operational side of HMRC and I make no apology for

:59:35.:59:41.

that. HMRC cannot be immune from the requirement that its resources are

:59:42.:59:45.

spent widely. I will give way to the very patient honourable member. It

:59:46.:59:52.

was friendly fire for the SNP but they did not accept it. The Minister

:59:53.:59:57.

will acknowledge the disappointment that there is a Northern Ireland

:59:58.:00:01.

with ten offices closing. We haven't got the full numbers as yet of those

:00:02.:00:09.

who lose their jobs and further to the comments by my honourable

:00:10.:00:12.

friend, we are vulnerable at the best of times but with the land

:00:13.:00:16.

border, this will make it even worse. First of all, what I would

:00:17.:00:23.

say on that point is that this is about offices are not staff. In

:00:24.:00:29.

terms of the numbers of people who are likely to be employed, the

:00:30.:00:33.

example, in Northern Ireland, it should not be taken that because of

:00:34.:00:37.

this is about offices are not staff. In terms of the numbers of people

:00:38.:00:39.

who are likely to be employed, the example, in Northern Ireland, it

:00:40.:00:42.

should not be taken that because offices are closing, it means that

:00:43.:00:44.

the total number of staff employed by HMRC in Northern Ireland as a

:00:45.:00:49.

whole will reduce. Of course HMRC is aware of the specific issues with

:00:50.:00:52.

regards to smuggling, for example, that have already been touched upon

:00:53.:00:58.

and are determined to address it but let me reassure him in terms of

:00:59.:01:06.

numbers of staff, it should not be taken from the announcement of

:01:07.:01:10.

office closures that there will necessarily be a reduction in staff

:01:11.:01:14.

in Northern Ireland at all. Let me give way to the honourable

:01:15.:01:21.

gentleman. Does the Minister not realise that when you close offices,

:01:22.:01:27.

it does have an effect on staff? Can he give us the numbers of the staff

:01:28.:01:34.

affected? I have got school teachers in my constituency who want to sort

:01:35.:01:39.

out their pension problems. They cannot get through. Nobody responds

:01:40.:01:46.

to them. Or he do about that? The point I am making is that closure of

:01:47.:01:53.

offices has an impact on staff in those offices. To answer his first

:01:54.:02:01.

question, by 2027, when this process will have been completed,

:02:02.:02:10.

approximately 4000 of the existing 58,000 people employed by HMRC will

:02:11.:02:16.

not be within reasonable daily travel distance to an HMRC office.

:02:17.:02:25.

That is the scale. In terms of customer service, I agree that

:02:26.:02:33.

HMRC's standards need to be higher and there have been times recently

:02:34.:02:37.

where it has not been at an acceptable level. I am pleased that

:02:38.:02:41.

the performance is significantly better at the moment than it was in

:02:42.:02:47.

the April, May, June period of this year. It is still not as high as we

:02:48.:02:52.

would like it to be but it is of a level that is above the average

:02:53.:03:02.

standard of -- over the last six or seven years. But in terms of

:03:03.:03:05.

ensuring there is a high level of customer service and in terms of

:03:06.:03:09.

making sure we bring yielding, it is important that HMRC's resources are

:03:10.:03:14.

deployed efficiently and effectively and it is important that we ensure

:03:15.:03:21.

that services can be delivered in the most efficient way possible. I

:03:22.:03:26.

am very grateful to the Minister. On the issue of staff numbers, my

:03:27.:03:31.

honourable friend will be aware that the office in Chelmsford will close

:03:32.:03:36.

and will be based in Stratford in east London. That is 25 minutes

:03:37.:03:42.

train journey from Chelmsford. Can those people who work in Chelmsford

:03:43.:03:46.

gets some reassurance from what my honourable friend has said that the

:03:47.:03:53.

issue of redeploying staff from Chelmsford to Stratford is a viable

:03:54.:03:58.

proposition? I think I can provide that reassurance to my right

:03:59.:04:04.

honourable friend. The position as this would HMRC. An organisation

:04:05.:04:11.

that can make better use of technology, an organisation that can

:04:12.:04:15.

prove the way it works will find there are some activities that HMRC

:04:16.:04:20.

currently performs for which it requires large numbers of staff that

:04:21.:04:23.

it won't necessarily need the staff numbers but there are a number of

:04:24.:04:27.

things that HMRC do that mean it will require the staff members. HMRC

:04:28.:04:32.

will become a more highly skilled organisation. It will need those

:04:33.:04:41.

highly talented people to be able to ensure we get the money in and those

:04:42.:04:46.

people, and I think my right on boyfriend provides an example, there

:04:47.:04:52.

may be people working in Chelmsford who have skills that HMRC needs.

:04:53.:04:57.

They will be able to work in Stratford. I can point to other

:04:58.:05:05.

examples up and down the United Kingdom of similar circumstances. My

:05:06.:05:11.

honourable friend from Shipley wants to intervene. I don't disagree with

:05:12.:05:15.

the overall picture that my honourable friend is painting but

:05:16.:05:18.

hub in Yorkshire, Leeds, rather than hub in Yorkshire, Leeds, rather than

:05:19.:05:25.

Bradford is crass. Can I ask him, if it can be shown on the relocating

:05:26.:05:29.

the regional hub in the Bradford district would be cheaper for the

:05:30.:05:34.

taxpayer and it can be demonstrated that the calibre of staff could be

:05:35.:05:37.

accommodated and attracted to that base, will he give a commitment to

:05:38.:05:42.

revisit this particular decision and look at what Bradford is able to

:05:43.:05:49.

offer? What I would say to my honourable friend, first of all, I

:05:50.:05:53.

welcome the fact he supports the view that we should move to a

:05:54.:05:58.

smaller number of regional centres. In terms of the case of Leeds

:05:59.:06:02.

Bradford, and I am conscious there are different views here, the

:06:03.:06:07.

analysis that HMRC has provided is that have large numbers of staff who

:06:08.:06:13.

potentially now live and work in, for example you walk or Harrogate or

:06:14.:06:22.

Sheffield and if you like coming back to the point made by my right

:06:23.:06:27.

honourable friend the Chelmsford, for those people to be redeployed,

:06:28.:06:31.

it is easier for them to be redeployed to Leeds because there is

:06:32.:06:36.

a direct train service to Leeds. If they went to Bradford, there would

:06:37.:06:40.

have to travel to Leeds and then change. Their commute may be beyond

:06:41.:06:46.

what would constitute a reasonable daily travel. I should've said Hull

:06:47.:06:55.

rather than Harrogate. It is easier to get to Leeds and Bradford. But as

:06:56.:07:02.

always, I am more than happy to listen to the arguments that he

:07:03.:07:09.

makes and indeed others. I will have a meeting with Bradford MPs over the

:07:10.:07:12.

course of the next week or two to hear the arguments that they wish to

:07:13.:07:19.

put. I am spoilt for choice. I will give way to the honourable

:07:20.:07:25.

gentleman. The Minister will be aware that there is a special

:07:26.:07:28.

investigation unit in Northern Ireland dealing with serious and

:07:29.:07:35.

organised crime gangs and extra special tax affairs of individuals.

:07:36.:07:42.

That unit was based in Moira house. It is faced with closure. Well that

:07:43.:07:49.

unit now be based? The intention with Northern Ireland is to have one

:07:50.:07:57.

main office in Belfast. If we are looking around the United Kingdom as

:07:58.:08:01.

a whole, there are a handful of specialist centres, but in terms of

:08:02.:08:08.

Northern Ireland, the intention is to work out of Belfast. But can I

:08:09.:08:18.

say a bit more about the approach? I welcome the fact that HMRC's

:08:19.:08:26.

expenditure on its Estates fell from ?371 million in 2010 to ?255 million

:08:27.:08:32.

in 2014-15 and these plans will generate further savings of ?100

:08:33.:08:37.

million a year by 2025. Let me make this point. That will allow HMRC to

:08:38.:08:46.

better concentrate on its core task of revenue collection and that is

:08:47.:08:52.

the important point here. I would make this point. Yes, there are

:08:53.:08:59.

savings here for HMRC in reducing their estate costs but what they

:09:00.:09:03.

have made clear to me is that regardless of what the spending

:09:04.:09:06.

review settlement will be tomorrow, they would move in this direction

:09:07.:09:10.

because they believed that the best way in which they can deliver

:09:11.:09:15.

services and collect tax is through these regional centres. I will give

:09:16.:09:21.

way to the honourable gentleman. I would like to pay tribute to the

:09:22.:09:26.

staff of HMRC who do a very tough and challenging job in collecting

:09:27.:09:31.

the taxes which pay for our vital public services. He mentioned is

:09:32.:09:35.

customer service and noted the concerns he had recently and I have

:09:36.:09:40.

had constituency correspondence confirming that it has not been

:09:41.:09:49.

adequate to date. Can he explain how cutting off his numbers, removing

:09:50.:09:53.

the local knowledge in memory of staff, increases the customer

:09:54.:09:57.

service that people can expect? I think it might be helpful if I set

:09:58.:10:10.

out a bit of history here. When HMRC was formed in 2005, is at 572

:10:11.:10:17.

offices. That is frankly an inefficient way of doing business on

:10:18.:10:22.

the 21st century. Reorganising this network of offices was a policy

:10:23.:10:28.

priority which is why following a number of reorganisations, that

:10:29.:10:33.

number was reduced to 393 in 2010. It now stands a number of

:10:34.:10:35.

reorganisations, that number was reduced to 393 in 2010. It now. That

:10:36.:10:47.

is a start but it is done not enough in terms of finding efficiencies.

:10:48.:10:53.

The changes announced yesterday represent the next phase. Over the

:10:54.:10:57.

next ten years, the department will bring its employee is together.

:10:58.:11:04.

These new high-quality regional centres will serve every nation in

:11:05.:11:13.

the United Kingdom, creating high-quality skilled jobs and

:11:14.:11:18.

opportunities in Birmingham, Belfast, Croydon, Edinburgh,

:11:19.:11:25.

Manchester, Newcastle and Stratford. Let me just make this point. There

:11:26.:11:31.

are significant advantages to such a system. The new offices will have

:11:32.:11:36.

the capacity to host multiple lines of businesses and have senior jobs

:11:37.:11:40.

on-site. They will give senior employees the chance to build their

:11:41.:11:47.

skills in one single office. They will be in locations with strong

:11:48.:11:54.

transport links. They represent the way business is done in the

:11:55.:12:00.

21st-century. Let me... I will give way to the honourable member again.

:12:01.:12:08.

He is being very generous. He mentioned that 4000 employees could

:12:09.:12:13.

be affected by 2020. Can he redeploy all those employees. If this is what

:12:14.:12:22.

he is actually saying? To come back to that point, 4000 of the current

:12:23.:12:30.

58,000 employed by Iran will be outside a reasonable daily travel.

:12:31.:12:39.

HMRC acknowledges that. -- HMRC will be outside. That will be over the

:12:40.:12:49.

course of that period. But I would make the point that the vast

:12:50.:12:55.

majority of HMRC staff, and I realise it isn't for the vast

:12:56.:13:01.

majority of them, are able to work in the centres I have outlined.

:13:02.:13:05.

Would he agree with me that the current level of customer service in

:13:06.:13:11.

HMRC is not acceptable? If it was not for the fact that currently 40%

:13:12.:13:19.

of calls are never answered, his argument would make sense. Would he

:13:20.:13:24.

agree that a reasonable centre, which allows us to flex the number

:13:25.:13:29.

of staff would be a coherent approach to getting calls answered,

:13:30.:13:35.

which cannot be done with 190 centres. -- regional centre. The

:13:36.:13:45.

numbers are not that bad. 80% of calls are getting through. We need

:13:46.:13:51.

to ensure the quality is higher. The point is that it is easier to

:13:52.:13:58.

provide flexibility where there are fewer centres. And the point about

:13:59.:14:04.

being able to move people from processing jobs, I was addressing

:14:05.:14:11.

this... Making this point earlier that some of these processing jobs

:14:12.:14:14.

would be necessary in future, but a lot of the compliance jobs will be.

:14:15.:14:29.

-- will not be necessary. That will be easier to deliver, if they are

:14:30.:14:33.

already in the same building and already working with the same

:14:34.:14:37.

people, if the training facilities are there. This is why I believe it

:14:38.:14:42.

is absolutely the right measure to take to ensure the opportunities are

:14:43.:14:48.

there for the existing staff. I am spoiled for choice. I just

:14:49.:14:54.

wanted... I believe that 3000 extra staff were laid on to help handle

:14:55.:14:58.

phone calls at weekends. I welcome that. Can he reassure us that we

:14:59.:15:04.

will still have human beings at the end of the telephones in this new

:15:05.:15:11.

system? Which I fully support. It is the case that HMRC, following the

:15:12.:15:17.

problems earlier this year, brought in an additional 3000 people to work

:15:18.:15:20.

on the telephones. Those people have been trained up. They are now

:15:21.:15:26.

deployed. That significantly explains why there has been a

:15:27.:15:30.

significant improvement in performance over the last few weeks,

:15:31.:15:35.

but there is more work to do. I will give way. Thank you. I commend the

:15:36.:15:41.

government for making it a priority to clamp down on tax evasion. It has

:15:42.:15:48.

contributed to an extra 11.9 billion collected in the last tax year. A

:15:49.:15:55.

place in my constituency has long played a key role in closing the tax

:15:56.:16:00.

gap. Will he agree to meet with me to discuss the future of a large

:16:01.:16:04.

number of dedicated and skilled workers? I am happy to meet my

:16:05.:16:12.

honourable friend. I have also had a request from my friend, the member

:16:13.:16:18.

for Rochford and Southend East. I will be happy to meet him. And our

:16:19.:16:27.

mutual friend from South and West. I am happy to meet. -- Southend West.

:16:28.:16:39.

I think HMRC are right to move in this direction. I know for some of

:16:40.:16:45.

her constituents, the option of working in Maidstone, which is

:16:46.:16:49.

staying open for an additional four years beyond the timescale for

:16:50.:16:54.

Chatham is won a number of will take to take up. -- is one. Thank you.

:16:55.:17:06.

Many MPs and attacks experts support the view that it is essential to

:17:07.:17:13.

maintaining confidence in the tax system. Does he agree that it will

:17:14.:17:22.

open the way to more tax problems? -- tax experts. No, I don't. As I

:17:23.:17:29.

have made clear, the number of HMRC officers has been falling since its

:17:30.:17:35.

creation in 2005. This has already been touched upon, the closure of

:17:36.:17:44.

enquiry centres. Dealing with tax avoidance and evasion has been most

:17:45.:17:49.

marked. We have seen improvement. The point is that they mainly deal

:17:50.:17:53.

with these through the sophisticated use of data analysis. It brings

:17:54.:18:00.

together highly skilled people. The more that we can do that, that is

:18:01.:18:06.

what can make the big difference. I will give way. Thank you. Thank

:18:07.:18:17.

you. If HMRC requires visibility, is there any consideration being given

:18:18.:18:26.

to mobile operations, let's take Northern Ireland, it has got one big

:18:27.:18:31.

office in Belfast. You could send them down to Londonderry, four

:18:32.:18:40.

example. There are considerations, which have been brought in as a

:18:41.:18:46.

partial replacement for enquiry centres. But I think their presence,

:18:47.:18:52.

he raises an interesting point, but in terms of HMRC being active, the

:18:53.:18:58.

fact that its record is strong, the fact that we have seen a rise in

:18:59.:19:02.

prosecutions, the fact that it is hard to open a newspaper without

:19:03.:19:08.

reading reports of the wealthy facing significant tax bills,

:19:09.:19:12.

because they have successfully closed down tax avoidance schemes, I

:19:13.:19:18.

think is helping HMRC in reducing this behaviour. I will give way.

:19:19.:19:26.

Thank you. I thank him. I am heartened by his confirmation that

:19:27.:19:33.

reducing the tax cap and protecting it remains a priority. This has

:19:34.:19:45.

resulted in ?57 billion extra tax revenue, compared to 2006. He is

:19:46.:19:50.

right to say our record is strong and we remain committed to that. If

:19:51.:19:56.

I can make some progress, I am being generous to people who wish to

:19:57.:20:00.

intervene, but I also should be generous to those who wish to take

:20:01.:20:06.

part in the debate. Of him, and I know he will find this helpful,

:20:07.:20:11.

there are no fewer than 19. I gently put that. His speech so far,

:20:12.:20:17.

probably as a result, is significantly longer than that of

:20:18.:20:21.

the person who led the debate. I'm sure he wouldn't want that to be the

:20:22.:20:29.

case. I certainly wouldn't. HMRC has done this the right way, it has told

:20:30.:20:37.

staff first, it has kept them abreast. It has held events up and

:20:38.:20:43.

down the country to ensure they can work with staff. I should also, as I

:20:44.:20:48.

said before, make it clear that this is a locations announcement, not a

:20:49.:20:55.

workforce one. The idea is to keep redundancies know. I will not give

:20:56.:21:04.

way. I take his words very seriously. I can assure members of

:21:05.:21:08.

this house, I will make more progress. I just want to make the

:21:09.:21:12.

point in response to what we have heard from the member for

:21:13.:21:17.

Livingston, that the changes that HMRC are talking about, about trying

:21:18.:21:22.

to find efficiencies to centralisation, this is not unique

:21:23.:21:28.

to them. It's not unique to the United Kingdom government. The

:21:29.:21:31.

Scottish Government, they have also brought forward proposals to do the

:21:32.:21:40.

same. It brought proposals to close police Scotland's control rooms.

:21:41.:21:48.

Also, fire stations. Into one national body. We have seen cuts to

:21:49.:21:53.

the number of court buildings across Scotland. And we have seen cuts to

:21:54.:21:58.

the number of incorporated colleges by almost half. I'm sure they have

:21:59.:22:03.

good reasons for doing that, but so do we and it is right that we take

:22:04.:22:09.

these steps. If I may conclude, if we want HMRC to do its job

:22:10.:22:13.

effectively, we must ensure that they are fit for the challenge. We

:22:14.:22:18.

have two be willing to modernise, find efficiencies and make long-term

:22:19.:22:25.

decisions. That is what they are doing. Transforming itself into a

:22:26.:22:29.

smaller, more highly skilled organisation, with a data driven

:22:30.:22:33.

compliance operation, generating more for the taxpayer at a lower

:22:34.:22:38.

cost. What with the opponents prefer? To rely on a structure that

:22:39.:22:44.

states before the Internet era? To pump more money without examining

:22:45.:22:50.

where it is going? It is right to ensure it carries out efficiencies

:22:51.:22:54.

and carries on delivering for the British taxpayer. That is the policy

:22:55.:22:57.

it has embarked on and the one that is increasing revenue yield and

:22:58.:23:04.

closing the tax gap. I therefore urge the house to reject the motion

:23:05.:23:13.

before us. Well, I salute the efforts of the Minister tonight. And

:23:14.:23:20.

I salute the efforts of this government and the Coalition

:23:21.:23:24.

Government which preceded it in taking some steps to clamp down on

:23:25.:23:28.

tax avoidance. More should be done, but they have made good steps,

:23:29.:23:34.

because we need a well functioning HMRC, because we need the taxes into

:23:35.:23:42.

pay for the goods we want. We need a well functioning HMRC to keep up

:23:43.:23:47.

business and maintain the confidence of taxpayers. We need a well

:23:48.:23:52.

functioning HMRC for effective anti-money-laundering steps and to

:23:53.:24:00.

clamp down on tax evasion and to protect the revenue. And it is

:24:01.:24:07.

desirable that HMRC should act efficiently. And technology is

:24:08.:24:11.

changing what they and other large organisations do, so that 80% of

:24:12.:24:15.

self assessment returns are now done online. That's for example. So that

:24:16.:24:23.

availability of information from HMRC is greatly aided by the

:24:24.:24:30.

HMRC knowledge. That is a difficult HMRC knowledge. That is a difficult

:24:31.:24:36.

balancing act, between providing information to businesses and

:24:37.:24:39.

individual taxpayers versus not providing tax advice and sometimes

:24:40.:24:44.

that is difficult for staff. And I, as other members have paid tribute

:24:45.:24:51.

to the overwhelmingly hard-working and skilful staff at HMRC around the

:24:52.:24:56.

United Kingdom. And it is no criticism of them that we still have

:24:57.:25:05.

a considerable tax gap. And more staff are likely to help to close

:25:06.:25:10.

that tax gap. The National Audit Office estimates and 18 to one

:25:11.:25:21.

return on employing extra staff. That's ?1 more in salary, ?18 more

:25:22.:25:34.

in revenue. I will in a moment. HMRC itself estimates a return of 11 to

:25:35.:25:45.

one. Will he agree with me that there are thousands of staff that

:25:46.:25:48.

will not be able to relocate and will be lost to the revenue?

:25:49.:25:54.

I do agree with that. I will come onto that in a moment. We had to

:25:55.:26:00.

look at this debate and what is happening with HMRC in the context

:26:01.:26:06.

of the economy and finances overall. The national debt has gone up by

:26:07.:26:11.

55%, instead of taking five years to sort out it will take ten years on

:26:12.:26:18.

the Government estimations. The balance of payments is the highest

:26:19.:26:21.

deficit it has been in peace time, now 5% of GDP. Productivity has

:26:22.:26:27.

stalled, home ownership is markedly down, it is now said we have the

:26:28.:26:31.

fourth lowest of any European member state. Net household debt is rising

:26:32.:26:37.

alarmingly. That is the context where we need to protect revenue.

:26:38.:26:44.

There are problems, of course. In terms of the tax gaps, there are

:26:45.:26:49.

problems with insufficient collectors, members of staff dealing

:26:50.:26:55.

with ovation, dealing with artificial avoidance measures, there

:26:56.:27:00.

is the difficulty created, I have to say by a Labour government of the

:27:01.:27:05.

disastrous contract with make plea based in the Bahamas, to whom the

:27:06.:27:13.

lease of the office was transferred in 2001. And the proposals we heard

:27:14.:27:19.

of on the 12th of November do not address that as far as I am aware in

:27:20.:27:24.

anyway. Apart from saying we are dumping all of these offices, not

:27:25.:27:28.

saying what is happening to the leases and maybe the Minister can

:27:29.:27:31.

tell us more about that, the intersection between these plans and

:27:32.:27:37.

the wretched leases. In terms of staff numbers, they are markedly

:27:38.:27:45.

down in recent years. Under the last Labour government according to the

:27:46.:27:50.

Office for National Statistics, between 2007 and 2010 the number of

:27:51.:27:56.

HMRC start went down 9%. Under the five years of Coalition government,

:27:57.:28:02.

it went down a further 24.4%, a humourless drop of 31.4. --

:28:03.:28:10.

cumulative drop. The honourable member will also have been contacted

:28:11.:28:17.

by representatives in his area, the PCS came to see me and they

:28:18.:28:21.

understand HMRC is currently spending ?70 million on overtime.

:28:22.:28:26.

Would he agree that indicated that they need more staff and not fewer?

:28:27.:28:33.

I do agree with that. There are problems with the workforce, which

:28:34.:28:39.

several members referred to. The Chief Executive wrote to me, from

:28:40.:28:44.

HMRC, on the 12th of November, saying, we expect 90% of the current

:28:45.:28:50.

workforce will be able to either work in a regional centre, or see

:28:51.:28:59.

out their career in an HMRC office,". He reckons that -- HMRC

:29:00.:29:09.

office. He reckons the remainder will not be made redundant. We had

:29:10.:29:14.

reference to response times in the first two quarters of 2015, 12

:29:15.:29:19.

million calls were not answered. Half of the calls to HMRC. Only 39%

:29:20.:29:25.

were answered within five minutes. In the third quarter, after a staff

:29:26.:29:33.

infusion, the numbers went off to 76%. A great improvement but firstly

:29:34.:29:43.

the target is 80, and in 2014-15, it was 72.5. I had to say to the

:29:44.:29:48.

Government and particularly the Chancellor, who has a family

:29:49.:29:52.

business, this is the worst of states. If it was a business it

:29:53.:29:56.

would have gone bust with that appalling customer service. But

:29:57.:30:01.

because none of us have any choices but to pay taxes, they remain in

:30:02.:30:05.

business. It should not do so. It needs transforming but cutting the

:30:06.:30:10.

number of staff does not seem to me and my party to be the way to do it.

:30:11.:30:17.

We have, thanks to transparency, in terms of anti-money-laundering, with

:30:18.:30:19.

London thankfully being a major financial centre in the world, we

:30:20.:30:25.

have a big problem with the regime set up to deal with money-laundering

:30:26.:30:31.

and to counteract it, the average HMRC fine in 2014-15 for

:30:32.:30:41.

money-laundering, the average was ?1134, according to transparency

:30:42.:30:44.

International. It seems a remarkably low figure. It is not helped by

:30:45.:30:51.

accountancy having 14 different regulators involved in that. That

:30:52.:30:55.

need sorting out because otherwise HMRC staff cannot do their job

:30:56.:31:02.

properly in relation to anti-money laundering, let alone in relation to

:31:03.:31:09.

tax evasion. As has again been referred to in this debate, June

:31:10.:31:15.

2014 we have had no face to face war in centres operated by HMRC. There

:31:16.:31:21.

are some teams of mobile advisers. I guess it is the man in the white van

:31:22.:31:25.

dashing around Northern Ireland, northern Scotland, Caithness and

:31:26.:31:29.

whatever, for a face-to-face interview. It is very

:31:30.:31:34.

unsatisfactory. It does not encourage confidence in the taxpayer

:31:35.:31:37.

they are getting the service they should from HMRC. It is very

:31:38.:31:45.

worrying that 170 officers are being put down to 13. He will recognise

:31:46.:31:52.

this is a massive programme involving 56,000 staff, closing 140

:31:53.:31:59.

officers, relocating on 20 sites which have not yet been acquired in

:32:00.:32:05.

a five-year period. In the 2015 civil service staff survey almost

:32:06.:32:09.

18% of HMRC staff thought the management were not able to manage

:32:10.:32:15.

change effectively. Does he agree that there are big risks in this

:32:16.:32:19.

programme and it is potentially a disaster waiting to happen? I think

:32:20.:32:26.

there are big risks and part of that is to do with insufficient funding,

:32:27.:32:33.

staffing and numbers of officers. I regret to say that in my

:32:34.:32:36.

constituency, crowd house will be closing. That is the second and

:32:37.:32:40.

final office in my constituency to close. The only silver lining in my

:32:41.:32:46.

region is the specialist office in Telford, in Shropshire down the

:32:47.:32:51.

road, will continue to be an HMRC IT headquarters. What is likely to

:32:52.:32:57.

happen with HMRC with these relocations and closures is HMRC is

:32:58.:33:05.

haemorrhaging staff. I will in a minute. HMRC employs a great number

:33:06.:33:12.

of very specialist staff, unlike quite a lot of government

:33:13.:33:16.

departments, in Treasury, a lot of staff are very mobile, there is a

:33:17.:33:20.

ready that in the private sector, which often pays more. He has been

:33:21.:33:28.

most generous. Does he agree with me that watch HMRC will also have to do

:33:29.:33:33.

is publish an impact assessment with the social and economic changes and

:33:34.:33:36.

staff that might have a disability and caring responsibility? I do

:33:37.:33:44.

agree and more on that in a couple of minutes. Views on whether the

:33:45.:33:50.

closure programme is wise or not vary. The financial Secretary to the

:33:51.:33:58.

Treasury and myself last week again sourced the Institute of directors

:33:59.:34:04.

and again, it is paraphrased, they welcome this move, because he thinks

:34:05.:34:09.

the technology has transformed and should transform the way we operate

:34:10.:34:15.

with HMRC and it should be driven by efficiency and so on. The

:34:16.:34:18.

Association of chartered accountants is broadly in favour of this kind of

:34:19.:34:23.

change. They say that it is reasonable to restructure the

:34:24.:34:28.

officers and we support a higher skill. That is the Association of

:34:29.:34:35.

chartered accountants. Correspondingly, the trade union,

:34:36.:34:39.

PCS, referred to earlier, they do a great job of representing members at

:34:40.:34:43.

HMRC and across government, having to say the least, grave misgivings

:34:44.:34:50.

about this programme. And the Association of revenue and Customs,

:34:51.:34:53.

part of the FDA. They have grave misgivings about this programme.

:34:54.:34:58.

They are representing senior people in HMRC. Thank you for giving way.

:34:59.:35:08.

Does he feel adequate consultation of this decision was taken, and

:35:09.:35:15.

given full regard of the facts? I do not. More about that in a couple of

:35:16.:35:20.

minutes. We have got the IOD saying they broadly support this kind of

:35:21.:35:22.

change and the unions saying they have grave misgivings. The chartered

:35:23.:35:27.

Institute of taxation is hardly known as a supporter of the Labour

:35:28.:35:31.

party or any political party, or the Scottish National Party, saying that

:35:32.:35:36.

this is the president, tax professionals alike will be anxious

:35:37.:35:39.

that a public body that is troubling to me the public facing service

:35:40.:35:44.

targets has announced it is about to lose many staff and close local

:35:45.:35:50.

offices. The Institute of Chartered Accountants in England and Wales, I

:35:51.:35:53.

do not know what the position is in Scotland, they say the timing of the

:35:54.:35:57.

changes could stretch HMRC to breaking point. That restructuring

:35:58.:36:05.

HMRC will be distracting for the leadership. I will give way. Does he

:36:06.:36:14.

know also, would he agree that the distribution of well-qualified civil

:36:15.:36:18.

servants will alter fundamentally and it is simply not on saying to

:36:19.:36:22.

unqualified civil servants in North Wales that they had to go to

:36:23.:36:25.

Liverpool and they will be no tax offices left in North Wales? I do

:36:26.:36:30.

tend to agree with my honourable friend. I am not making any

:36:31.:36:34.

commitment that we would keep every tax office open but keeping it in

:36:35.:36:40.

proportion, by 2010 we had three and 93 tax offices collecting well over

:36:41.:36:44.

on average ?1 billion each. On a business it seems you would keep an

:36:45.:36:50.

office open bringing in ?1 billion. I have listened carefully to his art

:36:51.:36:55.

on. Can he tell us on the half of the opposition family tax offices he

:36:56.:36:59.

thinks we should have? Do we go back to 310? Is 170 about right? Should

:37:00.:37:08.

it be lower? What is his number? This issue is a classic case of this

:37:09.:37:14.

government putting the cart before the horse. They announced the

:37:15.:37:18.

closure programme before getting adequate information. For example,

:37:19.:37:23.

we need a public consultation on this kind of change, we need a

:37:24.:37:28.

business consultation and we need Parliamentary scrutiny of, for

:37:29.:37:33.

example by the Public Accounts Committee and the Treasury select

:37:34.:37:37.

committee. Only going through that process, could I and I venture other

:37:38.:37:43.

members form a view as to how many offices should be distributed around

:37:44.:37:45.

the United Kingdom, how many they should have, given the changes

:37:46.:37:50.

brought about by technology, the desire for efficiency and also

:37:51.:37:53.

a customer facing service. I thank a customer facing service. I thank

:37:54.:37:59.

my honourable friend for giving way. He has been very generous

:38:00.:38:04.

today. I accept the point that there has not been meaningful consultation

:38:05.:38:08.

and there has not been enough scrutiny of the financial case. Does

:38:09.:38:15.

he agree with me that where an alternative financial economic and

:38:16.:38:21.

social system can be put together, it should be reconsidered? He is a

:38:22.:38:27.

very experienced and versatile member of the House. Can I remind

:38:28.:38:31.

colleagues that the convention, fairly long-standing, is the

:38:32.:38:35.

opposition front bench spokesperson for the party whose opposition date

:38:36.:38:43.

it is not would ordinarily make a front bench speech of about ten

:38:44.:38:48.

minutes. OK, he was a little over that. I am conscious there are 18

:38:49.:38:52.

people waiting to speak. It is not a conventional opposition day. It is

:38:53.:38:57.

the SNP opposition day. A brief contribution is absolutely right and

:38:58.:39:00.

proper but we do need to get onto the backbenchers pretty sharply. I

:39:01.:39:05.

am grateful. I had finished but for that intervention and I will respond

:39:06.:39:08.

to that intervention very briefly. I agree with my honourable friend from

:39:09.:39:12.

Bradford. I think the minister was open and responding to the member

:39:13.:39:16.

for Shipley. That is the kind of investigation we need for, before

:39:17.:39:20.

announcing sweeping changes, we should have consultation,

:39:21.:39:23.

investigation and a lot more publicly available evidence. He

:39:24.:39:27.

confirmed his reputation as a gentleman. That is very, very much

:39:28.:39:33.

appreciated. He has taken me very literally. We will have to start

:39:34.:39:39.

with a 5 minute the net. I am in a difficult position. -- limit. I did

:39:40.:39:45.

not agree much with what the member for Livingstone said in terms of

:39:46.:39:47.

overall analysis about the situation. I tend to agree with the

:39:48.:39:53.

view of the minister that I would prefer to save jobs rather than

:39:54.:39:56.

buildings if the choice comes down to that. But I do think the way in

:39:57.:40:01.

which HMRC have gone about this has been rather cack-handed. I do not

:40:02.:40:08.

feel able to support the Government either in what it is doing and I

:40:09.:40:11.

will have to reflect further before the division at seven o'clock. The

:40:12.:40:16.

point I would like to focus on if I may is about the decision in west

:40:17.:40:21.

Yorkshire. In Shipley, we have a tax office which is going to close, it

:40:22.:40:27.

employs 924 staff and in Bradford there two more offices, one, 358 and

:40:28.:40:35.

another employs 632. HMRC currently employs a total of 2300 people in

:40:36.:40:42.

Bradford district. Closing down all of the offices in Bradford and

:40:43.:40:46.

locating a regional hub in Leeds, that takes absolutely no sense

:40:47.:40:50.

whatsoever. My starting point here, the Minister will say everybody is

:40:51.:40:54.

going to be not in my backyard and argue for the area and he has got to

:40:55.:40:58.

take a larger view of the world and I accept all that, I would not decry

:40:59.:41:06.

any of that, but what I am arguing is what produces the best value for

:41:07.:41:10.

money for the taxpayer in the UK? That should be at the forefront of

:41:11.:41:14.

what this government is trying to do.

:41:15.:41:20.

It's locating a regional hub in a place which will be more expensive

:41:21.:41:26.

for the taxpayer than a feasible alternative. If this is about value

:41:27.:41:30.

for money for the taxpayer, why on earth would it make that decision?

:41:31.:41:33.

It should make decisions based on what would be cheapest of the

:41:34.:41:38.

taxpayer. I want to explain to the Minister why it would be more

:41:39.:41:42.

sensible to have a regional hub based in Bradford rather than Leeds

:41:43.:41:49.

and the flaws in the decision. Firstly, much lower accommodation

:41:50.:41:53.

costs. The costs in Bradford are at least 20% cheaper than they are in

:41:54.:41:57.

Leeds, which is a considerable saving for the taxpayer I don't

:41:58.:42:02.

think he should turn his nose up at in that way. There's already,

:42:03.:42:07.

probably from most of those staff moved, lower commuting distances

:42:08.:42:11.

because so many people from the Bradford district. It would be

:42:12.:42:15.

better for the majority to stay in the Bradford district. And it seems

:42:16.:42:19.

to be on the basis, and the Minister may want to confirm this, that the

:42:20.:42:26.

only way to recruit top staff and staff of a certain ability is to

:42:27.:42:29.

locate the offices in Leeds rather than Bradford. Setting aside how

:42:30.:42:34.

insulting that is to Bradford, to be perfectly frank, it's also not based

:42:35.:42:39.

on any facts. It's complete and utter bunk. I have one of the most

:42:40.:42:46.

technologically advanced businesses in the hall of the country in Salter

:42:47.:42:53.

in my constituency, the biggest provider of set-top boxes in the

:42:54.:42:58.

world. It hasn't had any problem recruiting high-level staff to the

:42:59.:43:01.

Bradford district and to work in Shipley. If the argument made any

:43:02.:43:07.

sense, he would be saying, companies like that could never be located in

:43:08.:43:12.

Bradford, they would have to go to Leeds to get the calibre of staff

:43:13.:43:17.

they need. The thinking HR see how started with is absolutely floored.

:43:18.:43:22.

They don't need to go to Leeds to attract top-quality staff. If that

:43:23.:43:26.

hasn't persuaded him, can I suggest heat here is a visit to any of the

:43:27.:43:31.

train stations on the Airedale line in the morning and takes a visit to

:43:32.:43:36.

Leeds station at rush hour. What he will find is there are literally

:43:37.:43:41.

thousands and thousands of people every morning who are living in

:43:42.:43:46.

Airedale, living in the Bradford district, who are living there and

:43:47.:43:50.

would presumably prefer to work there, who are making the journey

:43:51.:43:56.

into leads to a job. I'm sure they are already attracted to the

:43:57.:44:00.

Bradford district, they'll already living in the Bradford district. If

:44:01.:44:04.

the argument made any sense, they would all be living in Leeds. They

:44:05.:44:09.

wouldn't be living in Bradford. They are not. Bradford is a place where

:44:10.:44:15.

many people live, many people choose to live. It's ridiculous for HMRC to

:44:16.:44:21.

have this argument that the only way you can attract quality staff is to

:44:22.:44:25.

base yourself in Leeds. It seems to me that this is all about what's in

:44:26.:44:32.

the best interests of the London-based staff at HMRC. I'm

:44:33.:44:36.

delighted the honourable gentleman for Bradford East and Bradford South

:44:37.:44:39.

and me will work together and I hope the Minister will listen to the

:44:40.:44:45.

Argent and changes mind. I want to begin by saying, given the time

:44:46.:44:50.

constraints, it goes to show how important this SNP motion is and I

:44:51.:44:56.

hope there will be future time to seriously sleek debate this issue.

:44:57.:45:03.

In Dundee we have over 800 staff employed at 2-1's two facilities. I

:45:04.:45:10.

met with some of these staff last Friday way they relate their fees

:45:11.:45:14.

over the most recent announcements affecting job losses. -- their

:45:15.:45:22.

fears. This is completely at odds with what's happening in Dundee just

:45:23.:45:28.

now, which is a city undergoing a ?1 billion regeneration project, one of

:45:29.:45:31.

the most extensive in these islands, as well as bucking the national

:45:32.:45:36.

trend with employment on the up. At the stroke of a pen, this government

:45:37.:45:41.

is putting at risk the progress the city has been making to create and

:45:42.:45:46.

protect jobs. This has been done without public consultation or

:45:47.:45:51.

ministerial sign off. Civil servants, HMRC staff, will not be

:45:52.:45:55.

covered by a ministerial commitment to know who redundancies. We

:45:56.:45:58.

understand 130 jobs will be stripped from the city. Ten years ago there

:45:59.:46:07.

were over 200 HMRC staff. That office is now half the space and it

:46:08.:46:12.

looks like it will be boarded up by 2018. Employees, some of whom have

:46:13.:46:17.

30 years experience, have been abandoned. This office currently has

:46:18.:46:24.

only two members of staff at grade six or seven and I disagree with the

:46:25.:46:27.

minister when he says they will continue training. They used to be

:46:28.:46:32.

ten key staff at six and seven and four trainees, now we are down to

:46:33.:46:36.

two. Staff have been told the best outcome they can hope for is

:46:37.:46:41.

transferred to Glasgow and Edinburgh. If HMRC chooses to

:46:42.:46:45.

re-employ these staff, and this is not automatic, impacting them and

:46:46.:46:49.

their families will be dramatic. Most employees will be out within

:46:50.:46:55.

hours commute in the regional offices in Glasgow and Edinburgh. By

:46:56.:47:03.

HMRC's own definition, it will be asking staff to do something it

:47:04.:47:07.

doesn't consider it self to be reasonable. Simultaneously...

:47:08.:47:14.

Caledonia house is set to be shut down, but we've been told the new

:47:15.:47:19.

regional centres will not open until 2020 or 2021 at the earliest. What

:47:20.:47:26.

plans, if any, does HMRC have further staff at Caledonia house? In

:47:27.:47:32.

a letter recently received, it stated as Caledonia house is some

:47:33.:47:37.

distance away from the new regional centre, our employees will not

:47:38.:47:39.

automatically move to the new regional centre. Black and white.

:47:40.:47:44.

HMRC can offer new guarantees to job safety. They will be forced to apply

:47:45.:47:48.

for a job at the new regional centres. If that's not a trail of a

:47:49.:47:53.

loyal and dedicated force, I don't know what is. -- a betrayal. There

:47:54.:48:00.

are ten couples working under the same roof. It's not just an impact

:48:01.:48:05.

on one employee, it impacts couples. A devastating impact on

:48:06.:48:09.

families. The rationale of closing it only is shrouded in mystery. HMRC

:48:10.:48:16.

state the closure date the Caledonia house reflects the timing of when we

:48:17.:48:19.

will restructure the work currently rillettes -- done here. Two senior

:48:20.:48:25.

officials who visited on 17th of November could not tell staff how

:48:26.:48:28.

these plans will play out. What are we to take from this? As one local

:48:29.:48:37.

union represented did put it to me, mixed messages or misinformation are

:48:38.:48:39.

the only assumptions that can be made. On the point of

:48:40.:48:45.

misinformation, does my honourable friend share with me is the concern

:48:46.:48:49.

that last year during the independence referendum the better

:48:50.:48:54.

together parties were quick to point out that the only way of securing

:48:55.:49:00.

HMRC jobs was by voting no. Was that a betrayal? In one word, yes. It is

:49:01.:49:08.

indeed difficult to avoid a conclusion that HMRC on making this

:49:09.:49:13.

up as they go along. Turning my attention to signal house, there are

:49:14.:49:18.

650 people working there who have been offered nothing about the

:49:19.:49:25.

potential move. We know that the DWP has undertaken its own potentially

:49:26.:49:30.

far-reaching review in the face of what are likely to be swingeing cuts

:49:31.:49:34.

in tomorrow's Autumn Statement which could well see it pulling out of the

:49:35.:49:38.

city altogether. The implied deserve better. They deserve to know the

:49:39.:49:43.

truth. Dundee cannot afford to lose these highly skilled jobs. These

:49:44.:49:47.

plans as they stand represent an absolute hammer blow to Dundee with

:49:48.:49:52.

at least 130 skilled jobs being cut by a Tory government with no mandate

:49:53.:49:57.

in Scotland. As I've outlined, there is also no clarity about the 650

:49:58.:50:02.

jobs in my constituency and whether they will be transferred to DWP.

:50:03.:50:10.

Families across the city will be devastated by this news and worried

:50:11.:50:12.

about the future and I cannot stress enough my opposition to this. As a

:50:13.:50:19.

newly elected member of the Public Accounts Committee I've had the

:50:20.:50:22.

opportunity to look closely at HMRC's efforts to increase the

:50:23.:50:25.

amount of tax they collect and how they plan to do better. In our

:50:26.:50:29.

latest report from November the public against committee have been

:50:30.:50:34.

clear that it's our opinion that HMRC has continued to fail its

:50:35.:50:37.

customer service standards and if it is to collect more tax, modern, fit

:50:38.:50:41.

for purpose systems must be in place. The reality is that at the

:50:42.:50:49.

moment HMRC's 58,000 employees are spread over 170 offices, many a

:50:50.:50:55.

latency of the 1960s and 70s. They range in staff numbers from fewer

:50:56.:51:00.

than ten to more than 6000. In order to meet standards and increase tax

:51:01.:51:04.

revenues, the service needs to be providing its customers with modern

:51:05.:51:08.

services at a lower cost the taxpayer. This year HMRC recruited

:51:09.:51:14.

3000 additional staff. That was into customer facing teams. These staff

:51:15.:51:35.

are providing services in the evenings weekends. Building capacity

:51:36.:51:37.

outside normal working hours, which helps the taxpayer sort out her tax

:51:38.:51:39.

payments. This is a step forward with a major Government body

:51:40.:51:41.

changing its working practices in order to meet its customer demand.

:51:42.:51:44.

The reality is many more customers now want to work out their tax

:51:45.:51:47.

payments online at a time of their choosing. The investment by 2-1 into

:51:48.:51:49.

digital services, simpler, more user-friendly Bortles have working

:51:50.:51:50.

with accountancy software designers to make patch -- packages

:51:51.:51:53.

automatically link into reporting systems is freeing up staff to deal

:51:54.:52:00.

with more complex tax problems. I thank you for giving way. Isn't it

:52:01.:52:04.

right that already 80% of customers of filling in their tax forms

:52:05.:52:09.

online? It does prove that modernising is the right approach. I

:52:10.:52:15.

thank my honourable friend for her intervention. That's right. We have

:52:16.:52:21.

to be mindful of that is HMRC moves forward in this digital world. HMRC

:52:22.:52:28.

collected 51 point -- ?580 billion from taxpayers in 2013-14. Over the

:52:29.:52:33.

last five years continuously increasing tax take has been matched

:52:34.:52:39.

by reducing running costs. I believe the Chancellor is totally committed

:52:40.:52:44.

to supporting HMRC to do its job better and the Budget in July gave

:52:45.:52:50.

the ten one a further 800 millions -- ?800 million. It collected a

:52:51.:52:55.

further ?7 billion in tax take. The tax gap will continue to need the

:52:56.:53:01.

most modern systems and skilled staff. I believe the move to modern

:53:02.:53:05.

regional centres across the UK will bring together the skills and

:53:06.:53:10.

efficiency of resource and talents to maximise tax collection. HMRC

:53:11.:53:13.

expects the majority of its existing staff to be put a move that the

:53:14.:53:18.

regional centres with a 10-year phasing to minimise redundancies.

:53:19.:53:22.

They will eventually be an organisation with fewer staff, but I

:53:23.:53:26.

hope the programme of change is being well-managed and I will

:53:27.:53:30.

continue to monitor it, as will the Public Accounts Committee. I have

:53:31.:53:33.

concerns about the regional centre plans. I questioned the need for two

:53:34.:53:38.

London based sites in Stratford in London when there is no base in East

:53:39.:53:42.

Anglia, for instance, where running costs would be lower. In the

:53:43.:53:47.

north-east we have a major centre at Longbenton. It supports a wide

:53:48.:53:51.

variety of tax collecting divisions. The changes in staffing levels and

:53:52.:54:08.

working hours is starting to improve customer service there and it's Kiwi

:54:09.:54:10.

make sure HMRC does maximise the investment in their quality of staff

:54:11.:54:13.

and effective costs across the UK to get the maximum benefit. The

:54:14.:54:15.

modernisation of HMRC is vital if the service is to continue to reduce

:54:16.:54:18.

the tax gap to help us pay for the public services. We all want to see

:54:19.:54:24.

them. To transform its service to customers and clamp down further on

:54:25.:54:28.

the minority still trying to cheat the system. Thank you. Mr Speaker,

:54:29.:54:38.

thank you very much. As far as I can tell, Her Majesty's revenues and

:54:39.:54:42.

custom, on the 12th of November, announced in building our future

:54:43.:54:45.

their location strategy. As far as I'm concerned, that's the precursor

:54:46.:54:52.

to the end 50 years of my constituency's links with the civil

:54:53.:54:58.

service as a major employer. More than 2500 hard-working, committed,

:54:59.:55:05.

loyal and productive staff in four sites will be affected by the

:55:06.:55:11.

announcement. Almost 700 of my constituents. Many are my friends.

:55:12.:55:15.

Many of them work in specialist and complex areas of investigation and

:55:16.:55:20.

administration. And regrettably, I found out about the detail, and I

:55:21.:55:25.

use the word details loosely, in a very short letter at 2:14pm on

:55:26.:55:31.

November 12. From the Chief Executive. The day of a recess.

:55:32.:55:38.

2:14pm. It said I'm writing to let you know that HMRC has today

:55:39.:55:42.

announced the next step in our 10-year modernisation programme to

:55:43.:55:46.

create a tax authority fit for the future. Committed to high quality

:55:47.:55:51.

jobs and the creation of 13 new regional centres serving every

:55:52.:55:56.

region and every part of the nation. You try telling that to the hundreds

:55:57.:56:01.

of people who will lose their job. And the thousands who will be moved

:56:02.:56:03.

out of my town centre. It seems every Tom, Dick and Harry

:56:04.:56:15.

knew about it before I did. That seems disrespectful, not to me, but

:56:16.:56:21.

the people in my constituency. The thousands affected by this and the

:56:22.:56:24.

people I represent and that is a disgrace. On reading the letter it

:56:25.:56:28.

almost felt like I should be grateful to HMRC continuing to

:56:29.:56:34.

employ people anywhere to collect tax. The letter made the

:56:35.:56:38.

announcement sound like the service was expanding rather than

:56:39.:56:44.

contracting. I do not know how it did that, but it did. As I

:56:45.:56:50.

understand it, almost 170 offices will be closed and moving 13

:56:51.:56:54.

regional centres and four specialist sites in the next five years. And

:56:55.:57:01.

longer up to 2021, by 2021 they will be 35 locations. Four staff in

:57:02.:57:06.

Bootle, this is particularly shocking. This house is exacted a

:57:07.:57:14.

close 2018-19. Followed by the triad, St John's house in 2019-20.

:57:15.:57:19.

Golden house will also close. This is a significant and devastating

:57:20.:57:25.

impact in many cases on a significant number of people, the

:57:26.:57:29.

staff and their families. It seems staff should be grateful they are

:57:30.:57:34.

having a job to go to, even if it has a major effect on their lives.

:57:35.:57:38.

That is the implication. Be grateful you have got a job. That is a

:57:39.:57:44.

disgrace as well. Many members will face additional costs, car park and

:57:45.:57:48.

charges, a detrimental effect on family life, travelling to a place,

:57:49.:57:53.

to a regional centre they do not even know where it is going to be.

:57:54.:57:58.

You can make the announcement, say we are going to these regional

:57:59.:58:02.

centres but nobody can say where they are. For me and my

:58:03.:58:07.

constituency, wherever it is, if it is not in the centre of my town that

:58:08.:58:13.

will be absolutely devastating. There are many questions that have

:58:14.:58:17.

to be answered. Before I ask some of these questions, the professional

:58:18.:58:25.

site said professional bodies are sceptical about whether the plans to

:58:26.:58:30.

close 137 offices and so on, cut real estate cost, save 100 million,

:58:31.:58:34.

will deliver improvements in customer service levels. There are

:58:35.:58:39.

concerns the changes could stretch the tax department to breaking

:58:40.:58:43.

point. There are many questions and I will ask... These cuts will put

:58:44.:58:53.

HMRC under even more pressure at a time when more resources are needed

:58:54.:58:56.

to mitigate the ongoing problems that HMRC and concentric sour

:58:57.:59:04.

causing. Numerous people have contacted me, about the inadequacies

:59:05.:59:07.

of both the departments and I am sure these problems will only be

:59:08.:59:13.

exacerbated by these cuts. You are right. And the idea that by closing

:59:14.:59:20.

these offices we will get more tax and tackle fraud is an absolute

:59:21.:59:26.

fantasy. So, some questions. When will the new locations for the new

:59:27.:59:32.

regional centres be announced? As a quality impact assessment been

:59:33.:59:37.

carried out on the various people affected, particularly in my case,

:59:38.:59:42.

four sites? When did the department establish which sites would close

:59:43.:59:48.

and why was it not subjected to consultation to the Public Accounts

:59:49.:59:50.

Committee, the Treasury select committee? The impact of additional

:59:51.:59:54.

travel costs, will that be thanked in the -- factored in to

:59:55.:00:00.

departmental deals? What about the business consultation taking place

:00:01.:00:06.

ahead of these announcements? As far as I'm concerned, absolutely none.

:00:07.:00:10.

Absolutely none. At the following losses been taken into account?

:00:11.:00:13.

Redundancy, income tax, local business tax, job-seeker allowance,

:00:14.:00:19.

income support claims, insurance, divisions and the list goes on... My

:00:20.:00:24.

constituency in particular, what would happen to the 136 benefit and

:00:25.:00:29.

credit staff aced at triad? When the House closes, how will they

:00:30.:00:35.

accommodate the staff? What will the cost be to make building adjustment

:00:36.:00:38.

on a temporary basis until 2020? What would the cost of altering the

:00:39.:00:43.

software moving profiles around the site at transition and so on and the

:00:44.:00:48.

questions go on... You know what? We have not had one answer whatsoever

:00:49.:00:53.

to any one of those questions. I demand answers to those questions.

:00:54.:01:01.

Sir David Amis. I wish to make the case for Alexander house in South

:01:02.:01:04.

end not only to remain open and keep its jobs but expand. I'm beginning

:01:05.:01:11.

to think my honourable friend for Berwick-upon-Tweed in her address

:01:12.:01:15.

may be would be a supporter of Southend becoming the regional

:01:16.:01:19.

site. But a bit like the honourable member for Bootle, if I say to my

:01:20.:01:25.

honourable friend the Minister, I knew nothing about this planned

:01:26.:01:29.

closure. We have had a private chat about this. I do not blame him. He

:01:30.:01:36.

is an excellent minister. In fact, we have a very strong Treasury team

:01:37.:01:40.

at the moment. Southend is shared of course between myself and my

:01:41.:01:50.

honourable friend in Rochford. The constituency has as many people as

:01:51.:01:54.

my honourable friend has working in the building. I have been on the

:01:55.:01:58.

back foot on this issue but I cannot be back foot any more. I am on the

:01:59.:02:01.

front foot now. To remind my honourable friend, the minister, two

:02:02.:02:06.

years ago, a visited Alexander house. We had a wonderful tour of

:02:07.:02:11.

the building. I think he learned first-hand these strong tradition of

:02:12.:02:17.

loyalties there are among the staff of Alexander house, superb

:02:18.:02:20.

expertise, I think they are the second or third biggest employer in

:02:21.:02:24.

the constituency, the borough of Southend. My honourable friend

:02:25.:02:30.

seemed a very impressed with everything that he heard. Indeed,

:02:31.:02:36.

when Her Majesty the Queen visited a fuel years ago, I know that she was

:02:37.:02:39.

very impressed with everything she was shown. -- few years ago. I

:02:40.:02:45.

absolutely support the overall strategy. Because the Treasury team

:02:46.:02:52.

are doing a wonderful job sorting out the public finances in the light

:02:53.:02:56.

of the terrible mess we were left with in 2010. I accept the overall

:02:57.:03:02.

strategy. But I do say to my honourable friend, I was born in

:03:03.:03:10.

Stratford, and I hate to be in the position of pitting one area against

:03:11.:03:14.

another area and the member for West Ham is a splendid colleague. At the

:03:15.:03:19.

moment, Mr Speaker, I think Stratford gets everything. It had

:03:20.:03:27.

the Olympic Games, the Bill which I chaired, my football team, West Ham.

:03:28.:03:32.

I am loathe to sit by and remain silent, given that my honourable

:03:33.:03:38.

friend the member for Berwick-upon-Tweed spoke about East

:03:39.:03:40.

Anglia and what was the logic of having it in Stratford, I do not see

:03:41.:03:45.

it. I would have thought on economy of scale, Southend was entirely the

:03:46.:03:50.

right place. As it stands, at the moment, we in Southend will lose

:03:51.:03:57.

1265 jobs. Absolutely devastating. I'm also told Southend will continue

:03:58.:04:04.

as a transitional office for staff at other nearby offices which will

:04:05.:04:09.

close before Southend. I do not know how long my honourable friend the

:04:10.:04:12.

Minister when he comes to summarise, or his colleague, if they will say

:04:13.:04:17.

Southend will be a transitional office, but I imagine that once

:04:18.:04:22.

these other employees have moved to Southend, they are not going to want

:04:23.:04:26.

to leave. As we know, Southend is the premier seaside resort in the

:04:27.:04:30.

country. It is the alternative city of culture 2017. And I do know from

:04:31.:04:38.

contact I have had with the local authority that Southend will offer

:04:39.:04:45.

the Treasury a very, very attractive deal if my honourable friend the

:04:46.:04:50.

Minister agrees to having Southend as a regional site. I am delighted

:04:51.:04:56.

the Minister has agreed to meet our honourable friend, the member for

:04:57.:05:02.

Rochford and Southend East. And I hope in these conversations we can

:05:03.:05:06.

have a detailed discussion about travel arrangements, possible

:05:07.:05:11.

redundancy payments, but I say again to my honourable friend, I would ask

:05:12.:05:18.

him to think again and I hope that I and my honourable friend can

:05:19.:05:23.

persuade him to have the regional site in Southend. Thank you, Mr

:05:24.:05:30.

Speaker. I am pleased to have the opportunity to take part in this

:05:31.:05:36.

debate and put on record the anger felt by my constituents, who have

:05:37.:05:41.

for years worked incredibly hard in the tax office and also the disquiet

:05:42.:05:44.

felt across the town with these proposals to close down the biggest

:05:45.:05:51.

employer and relocate elsewhere. All of this comes, Mr Speaker, has

:05:52.:05:55.

honourable members have said with little in the way of explanation and

:05:56.:05:58.

even less in the way of consultation. On any view at all,

:05:59.:06:05.

the announcement two weeks ago about HMRC offices was a very significant

:06:06.:06:10.

and potentially will cause immense destruction to the staff affected,

:06:11.:06:13.

for the communities in which the tax offices are currently based, and the

:06:14.:06:18.

services HMRC provide in collecting taxes. It is astonishing to me the

:06:19.:06:23.

Government thinks it is an announcement which does not merit a

:06:24.:06:29.

ministerial statement. I have received no correspondence from HMRC

:06:30.:06:32.

so I feel like I have missed out a little bit. My colleague Jimmy

:06:33.:06:37.

Hepburn received a letter similar to one of my colleagues, full of

:06:38.:06:42.

management speak rather than information. There were no

:06:43.:06:45.

Parliamentary debate until we brought this one, PCS

:06:46.:06:49.

representatives were not consulted about the criteria by HMRC, or the

:06:50.:06:56.

outlying decisions, and they do not agree with either. I do not think it

:06:57.:07:00.

is good enough. It is such a big moment for HMRC and its star. HMRC

:07:01.:07:08.

claims ?100 million is regenerated by 2035. Despite not knowing where

:07:09.:07:12.

these new city centre sites will actually be and how much they will

:07:13.:07:18.

cost. If HMRC has such confidence with the savings that it will make

:07:19.:07:21.

and it will claim benefits to service standards, it should have

:07:22.:07:24.

nothing to be afraid of with extensive scrutiny. Let's have this

:07:25.:07:29.

extensive scrutiny. Will be governed agreed to a full debate of these are

:07:30.:07:34.

detailed proposals here in Parliament, to both public

:07:35.:07:37.

consultation and full consultation with PCS and an agreement that

:07:38.:07:41.

increment nation will be paused while all this is under way? -- in

:07:42.:07:47.

the meditation will be paused. It is a work -- in fermentation --

:07:48.:07:58.

undertaking will be paused. It will be directly impacted when you have

:07:59.:08:03.

the factor of IT staff and contractors and catering and

:08:04.:08:06.

claiming staff. Frustratingly, between the correspondence and

:08:07.:08:11.

contradictory information, so many questions remain unanswered. The

:08:12.:08:17.

HMRC letter to my colleague, Jimmy, which is all most identical to the

:08:18.:08:20.

letter received by the member for Wolverhampton South West, it said

:08:21.:08:24.

90% of the current workforce, including the majority of those

:08:25.:08:28.

working in the constituency will be welcome to other work in the

:08:29.:08:33.

regional centre, or see out their career in the HMRC others. As well

:08:34.:08:37.

as the objections raised by my honourable friend, how big is that

:08:38.:08:41.

majority to continue to work in HMRC? That is a grave disparity. The

:08:42.:08:47.

government has said there will be no forced redundancies but on the other

:08:48.:08:51.

hand, workers have been told there are no voluntary packages available

:08:52.:08:55.

to them. Given that we know the gum and plans to cut -- the -- given

:08:56.:09:02.

what we know about the Government plans, compensation will be needed.

:09:03.:09:11.

They ask if it is a coincidence that unacceptable travel distances, it

:09:12.:09:14.

should be timed to the detriment of staff and why our travel allowances

:09:15.:09:19.

limited to 3-5 years. What about those already committing long

:09:20.:09:25.

distances already and why are they not allowed to choose other

:09:26.:09:32.

locations? Will they be options of home working and other solutions and

:09:33.:09:35.

measures for retraining and employment? We need so much more

:09:36.:09:41.

detail before we can judge. People need to know when exactly they are

:09:42.:09:46.

expected to move. Is it soon or at the end of a five-year period,

:09:47.:09:50.

between most importantly, is there a job moving with them, or are they

:09:51.:09:55.

moving to a new job, not just with location, but also the claim that

:09:56.:09:59.

people will be able to develop careers up to senior levels, but my

:10:00.:10:04.

constituency people are afraid of poorer quality work... On so many

:10:05.:10:10.

levels it does not seem to be a well thought out plan and it should go

:10:11.:10:15.

back to the drawing board. What is particularly perplexing is some of

:10:16.:10:19.

the regional centres proposed will have as few as 1200 staff. Coming up

:10:20.:10:24.

to 1600. Why not retain it if that is sufficient enough?

:10:25.:10:32.

Thank you, Mr Speaker. I welcome the opportunity here and the

:10:33.:10:39.

modernisation of HMRC. It is write a service like this is streamlined. We

:10:40.:10:43.

have to make sure we have value for the taxpayer and customer service.

:10:44.:10:46.

They must be at the heart of reforms. I believe it is possible to

:10:47.:10:52.

save costs and improve customer service. At the end of the day, like

:10:53.:10:58.

many things in business, it comes down to efficiency and productivity.

:10:59.:11:04.

Two things increasingly difficult to achieve with the current system as

:11:05.:11:05.

has been pointed out already. It is imperative to collect you

:11:06.:11:18.

catch that are taxes and crackdown on tax avoidance. I know it's

:11:19.:11:22.

something my honourable friends from all sides are concerned about and

:11:23.:11:27.

that's why we need a system that will get to grips, especially with

:11:28.:11:32.

the tax avoidance issue. Bringing together a highly skilled workforce

:11:33.:11:35.

built -- based in specialist buildings will help to meet this

:11:36.:11:40.

challenge and I have sympathy where offices will close, but really, our

:11:41.:11:46.

system of offices is very old-fashioned. 1960s and 1970s

:11:47.:11:51.

buildings. They are stuck in the dark ages. I'm going to plough on

:11:52.:11:55.

because we've been told we can't speak a very long. Moving out of old

:11:56.:12:00.

offices and many in London will help to make major savings for these

:12:01.:12:05.

antiquated properties. It's the kind of common sense approach that all

:12:06.:12:10.

businesses go through in order to undergo cost savings and to improve

:12:11.:12:22.

efficiency. I'm pleased to be assured that it is anticipated that

:12:23.:12:25.

many of the staff will move to these new regional centres and Bristol is

:12:26.:12:27.

proposed as the centre for the south-west. But I would like to

:12:28.:12:31.

suggest that the county town of Somerset, Taunton, in the heart of

:12:32.:12:36.

my constituency of Taunton Deane, might be considered for this

:12:37.:12:39.

regional centre and I would welcome a discussion on this. I have been

:12:40.:12:44.

conducted by the powers that be in Taunton Deane and I do have the most

:12:45.:12:49.

wonderful location for the new regional Centre, Minister, which is

:12:50.:12:55.

on junction 25 of the M5 on our new strategic employment site. This

:12:56.:12:58.

would be such easy access for everybody everywhere to get to.

:12:59.:13:04.

Streamlining the office buildings is not the only component of the

:13:05.:13:07.

modernisation programme, as we've heard today. It's a full programme

:13:08.:13:12.

of other measures, including the investment in the online services,

:13:13.:13:17.

new compliance techniques and other initiatives, making it easier for

:13:18.:13:20.

taxpayers to access the system. And we are all keen to pay our taxes,

:13:21.:13:26.

aren't we? The benefits of these... They are already coming into play.

:13:27.:13:32.

80% of customers are filling in their self-assessment online. That

:13:33.:13:38.

saves time and money. It moves us towards a 21st-century system. I

:13:39.:13:51.

must add that I am actually constantly approached by many

:13:52.:13:56.

people, many constituents, about the difficulties of accessing their tax

:13:57.:14:00.

office and I have interviewed. We've had a very good service. I would say

:14:01.:14:05.

in this respect I do welcome an upgrade. I fully anticipate that it

:14:06.:14:10.

will make life easier. Those 3000 extra staff that came on board at

:14:11.:14:13.

the weekend to handle phone calls have really helped and I do applaud

:14:14.:14:19.

these opportunities for more personal contact where appropriate.

:14:20.:14:25.

To sum up, with major investment in the new modern system, with a highly

:14:26.:14:30.

skilled staff, many of whom we have already and many of whom we will

:14:31.:14:34.

train up, and bringing in more revenue at less cost to the

:14:35.:14:40.

taxpayer, this streamlining of HMRC, once it beds in, really has to be a

:14:41.:14:51.

win-win win. Ian Lucas. Thank you. I say to the minister this was an

:14:52.:14:55.

absolutely appalling announcement. It was appalling in the way it was

:14:56.:15:02.

done. I was sitting in a conference at 2:14pm, thanks to my friend from

:15:03.:15:05.

brutal for reminding me of the time, with two Tory ministers

:15:06.:15:11.

talking to us in North Wales about rebalancing the economy. When I

:15:12.:15:18.

received a missive not from a minister, not from the Government,

:15:19.:15:24.

but from the civil servant, telling me 350 people in my constituency in

:15:25.:15:28.

Wrexham were going to be either made redundant or be transferred out of

:15:29.:15:32.

North Wales into Liverpool, where they will be in hot competition with

:15:33.:15:37.

individuals from brutal in trying to find jobs. I was told by e-mail in

:15:38.:15:48.

that way about what the Conservative Government actually think of North

:15:49.:15:54.

Wales. Never has there been a sharper contrast between rhetoric

:15:55.:15:59.

and reality. Because this Government, supposedly, talks about

:16:00.:16:02.

rebalancing the economy. We've already had four point made by other

:16:03.:16:09.

colleagues in the chamber that the sites identified and set out in the

:16:10.:16:16.

letter that was sent to ask don't yet exist. This was an ideal

:16:17.:16:22.

opportunity for the Government to take a sensible approach to

:16:23.:16:28.

rebalancing the economy with taxpayers money. And to rebalance

:16:29.:16:34.

the economy by shifting jobs out of areas that were very economically

:16:35.:16:40.

successful and expensive, like London, or Nike Cardiff, to other

:16:41.:16:46.

areas within our community, like North Wales, like Wrexham, where

:16:47.:16:55.

there are places available to have high skilled workers providing

:16:56.:16:58.

first-class service in a new online age. Don't take my word for that. We

:16:59.:17:05.

have high quality service companies like Moneypenny, who provide virtual

:17:06.:17:11.

office services, and like deep TCC, who provide company search facility,

:17:12.:17:17.

not just within the UK, but right across the world. In Wrexham. They

:17:18.:17:24.

are actually expanding. They are expanding at the moment and bringing

:17:25.:17:31.

jobs to Wrexham, to be more competitive. This Government doesn't

:17:32.:17:37.

know its backside from its elbow. It doesn't recognise that already we

:17:38.:17:41.

have 350 high skilled people in Wrexham who are doing an excellent

:17:42.:17:47.

job. In addition to that, we have people in the local economy who

:17:48.:17:50.

you've been identified by the private sector as being particularly

:17:51.:17:55.

skilled at providing exactly the sort of services this Government

:17:56.:17:58.

needs, and any Government needs, to bring more money in to eliminate the

:17:59.:18:03.

deficit that the honourable gentleman told us in 2010 would be

:18:04.:18:10.

gone by today and is still there because of the economic incompetence

:18:11.:18:13.

of the party opposite. I will give way. He made the point about the

:18:14.:18:20.

site is not being known yet, as did the honourable member for brutal. In

:18:21.:18:23.

West Yorkshire there is not being known yet, as did the honourable

:18:24.:18:29.

member for brutal. In West Yorkshire there's identified site. It's very

:18:30.:18:33.

bad negotiation to say that you will go to a particular place without a

:18:34.:18:38.

site, because if you do identify a site, that landowners will have you

:18:39.:18:41.

over a barrel when the negotiations take place. I'm grateful to him. Can

:18:42.:18:47.

I commend him, and I think this is a first in 14 years, on his excellent

:18:48.:18:51.

speech. The points he made mirrored many of the points I have been

:18:52.:18:58.

making and intend to make. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever for

:18:59.:19:02.

the Government to have approached this issue in the way it has. If I

:19:03.:19:06.

can speak specifically about Wrexham because I'm here to represent my

:19:07.:19:09.

constituents, it's incredible that the only service that there will be

:19:10.:19:15.

from HMRC in Wales will be in Cardiff City centre. Cardiff City

:19:16.:19:24.

centre. Firstly, it's boom town. The announcement from HMRC was followed

:19:25.:19:29.

last week by the BBC announcing the creation of venue centre for Wales

:19:30.:19:36.

in Cardiff City centre. HMRC will have to hurry up because there won't

:19:37.:19:41.

be any room left in Cardiff. They had better hurry up and find a site.

:19:42.:19:47.

The honourable gentleman I think is a reasonable man. I find it

:19:48.:19:51.

incredible he's been in the Treasury since 2010 because he's a reasonable

:19:52.:19:56.

man! Let me ask you, please, look at this announcement again. I mean it

:19:57.:20:04.

seriously. I cannot understand the rationale economically, politically,

:20:05.:20:10.

intellectually, in any sense, for this announcement. He should listen

:20:11.:20:14.

to the sensible debate and I'm grateful to the SNP for bringing

:20:15.:20:18.

this to the floor of the House and I will certainly support their motion

:20:19.:20:24.

today. I think we desperately need a fundamental rethink on this. Because

:20:25.:20:29.

this is our money that the Government is talking about. Our

:20:30.:20:35.

money taking jobs out of a place like HMRC. -- temp two. The

:20:36.:20:45.

Government should use public money to support economic developers in

:20:46.:20:49.

those parts of our country that need it most. That is common sense. To

:20:50.:20:54.

the honourable member the Taunton Deane, that's common sense. I run my

:20:55.:21:00.

own business and if I run my own business pursuing policies like this

:21:01.:21:03.

I would have been bankrupt before I started. In opposing this motion, I

:21:04.:21:10.

wish to applaud the excellent work of HMRC over the recent years.

:21:11.:21:15.

Thanks to their endeavour, there has been a reduction in the tax gap to

:21:16.:21:21.

its lowest level of 6.4%. This reduction of the tax gap is a

:21:22.:21:25.

long-term trend showing that the targeted approach for tackling

:21:26.:21:30.

nonpayment is working. However, the issue today facing HMRC is that in

:21:31.:21:35.

attempting to calculate and pay their taxes, our taxes, taxpayers

:21:36.:21:40.

are spending 30 minutes or longer waiting to discuss their affairs.

:21:41.:21:44.

50% of callers were not answered at all in the first half of 2015. It's

:21:45.:21:51.

clear to me that the current tax Centre arrangements are not working

:21:52.:21:56.

and need modernising. Replacing the numerous local offices, where some

:21:57.:22:02.

staff levels and range from 6000 employees to those with just ten,

:22:03.:22:06.

with regional centres which will give a more balanced and even

:22:07.:22:11.

coverage makes huge sense. This follows the trend of other service

:22:12.:22:14.

operators in moving to a regional model. Indeed, it is not just

:22:15.:22:19.

service centres moving to regional or country models. I was struck last

:22:20.:22:24.

Friday listening to the First Minister of Scotland in an excellent

:22:25.:22:28.

Desert Island Discs describing the reasoning why she had moved

:22:29.:22:32.

Scotland's policing towards one country force. The question I

:22:33.:22:49.

therefore ask myself is why has it taken such a long period of time for

:22:50.:22:52.

HMRC to move to this type of model? Banks were setting up current

:22:53.:22:54.

account centres when I was a 16-year-old working as a Kasia in my

:22:55.:22:57.

holidays for Abbey National. Many years back. In an increasingly

:22:58.:22:59.

technological age, to continue to argue, as this motion tacitly does,

:23:00.:23:01.

that the effectiveness of an operation is down to the number of

:23:02.:23:05.

workers or their location rather than the completion of the work

:23:06.:23:11.

itself is outmoded. In many public facing industries, technology means

:23:12.:23:15.

human input is no longer required or is required less. In reducing and

:23:16.:23:21.

streamlining staff numbers, I welcome HMRC's intention to invest

:23:22.:23:25.

in technology to make itself more efficient. In an age where many of

:23:26.:23:30.

my constituents are let to complete their work online, it makes more

:23:31.:23:33.

sense to move funding to those areas where HMRC is able to target

:23:34.:23:41.

avoidance. In my constituency, although we have two nearby offices

:23:42.:23:44.

which will be replaced by regional centre in Croydon, it hasn't been

:23:45.:23:48.

possible for the last year to go to the local tax office and discussed

:23:49.:23:53.

tax arrangements. This walk in service has been unavailable for a

:23:54.:23:57.

year. I therefore cannot see how my constituents will be inconvenienced

:23:58.:24:00.

by the fact that the person they speak to on the phone is no longer

:24:01.:24:06.

in Hastings, but is in Croydon. It is of course always regrettable when

:24:07.:24:10.

new service models driven by new technologies and the preference of

:24:11.:24:13.

the public to work online rather than deal face-to-face leads to the

:24:14.:24:18.

potential of redundancies. As with any employee faced with the

:24:19.:24:22.

uncertainty of redundancy, I have the greatest sympathy for those

:24:23.:24:25.

impacted and I'm glad the economy is performing strongly enough to give

:24:26.:24:30.

confidence and optimism to those who may be rejoining the jobs market.

:24:31.:24:35.

But to hold back modernisation, to use resources which can be better

:24:36.:24:40.

targeted in the sophisticated fight to win more tax receipts, and to

:24:41.:24:44.

fail to address the shortcomings of customer service, would, I content,

:24:45.:24:49.

be wrong. I therefore welcome these changes to HMRC and I will be voting

:24:50.:25:00.

for them today in the lobby. The Government has been dismantling its

:25:01.:25:05.

tax services in Wales for 15 years. The building our future locations

:25:06.:25:08.

proposals are the final name of a Coffin of the tax service which used

:25:09.:25:13.

to operate a very effective network for taxpayers across Wales. Not so

:25:14.:25:17.

long ago, there were offices to be found in 22 towns and cities. Fast

:25:18.:25:23.

forward five years from today and the Government proposes there will

:25:24.:25:29.

only be one, and that in south-east Wales. HMRC was Mike Porthmadog

:25:30.:25:35.

office in my constituency is earmarked once again for closure.

:25:36.:25:41.

This is the home of the Welsh language unit. It is not just

:25:42.:25:48.

offices, it is staff as well. There was no mention of the Welsh language

:25:49.:25:52.

unit in the letter I received at recess. This office is well placed

:25:53.:26:02.

to attract and retain fluid Welsh speaking staff and offers that rare

:26:03.:26:07.

thing, a naturally Welsh speaking workplace, also serving the region

:26:08.:26:11.

of Wales and this is important, where demand for Welsh language

:26:12.:26:16.

services is highest. As one of their users, I would urge everyone to

:26:17.:26:19.

speak to take advantage of this office, even people lacking

:26:20.:26:22.

confidence to discuss financial matters in Welsh, not for the

:26:23.:26:26.

language but because the staff are good at their job. Beyond the

:26:27.:26:33.

language remit, HMRC's commitment falls a long way short of the

:26:34.:26:37.

statutory required to treat the Welsh and English-language magazines

:26:38.:26:39.

as equal when providing public service in Wales according to the

:26:40.:26:45.

act of 1993. I am presently working on behalf of a constituent told he

:26:46.:26:48.

cannot use Welsh to resolve a tax affair. Business customers tell me

:26:49.:26:54.

the same thing. Others complain of waiting 40 minutes and more before

:26:55.:26:55.

the telephone system allows them the telephone system allows them

:26:56.:27:01.

access the service in Welsh. The proposal is this service can be kept

:27:02.:27:07.

as effectively in Cardiff. The county of Gwyneth is home to 77,000

:27:08.:27:12.

Welsh speakers. Sexy 5.4% of the county population. Cardiff has less

:27:13.:27:20.

than half that number. -- 65.4%. They want to move from payroll

:27:21.:27:23.

region where Welsh is the language of everyday life and civic

:27:24.:27:27.

administration to an urban centre 150 miles and four hours drive away.

:27:28.:27:33.

About as far from likely users as is possible to go and still be in

:27:34.:27:37.

Wales. The tax office is honest enough to admit it is not realistic

:27:38.:27:41.

to expect workers to travel to South East Wales. Workers at Wrexham and

:27:42.:27:47.

Swansea are being offered the option to transfer to Liverpool, or

:27:48.:27:51.

Cardiff. It sounds fair until you recall former organisations offered

:27:52.:27:54.

workers the option of moving to workplaces, which are now in turn

:27:55.:28:00.

threatened. In this month it was announced and implement in Wales

:28:01.:28:05.

rose by 3000. News described by the Secretary of State for Wales as a

:28:06.:28:10.

disappointing set of figures. The closure of these offices is a blow

:28:11.:28:13.

to plans to devolve tax powers for Wales. On the one hand the Tories

:28:14.:28:18.

extol the virtues of Wales taking more control over taxes, something

:28:19.:28:21.

we have proposed for years, but on the other hand, the means of them

:28:22.:28:24.

ministration of powers is shuffled across the border to England. -- the

:28:25.:28:29.

administration of powers. It should be subject to proper public and

:28:30.:28:35.

parliamentary scrutiny at UK level and also with the PCS union. There

:28:36.:28:39.

are issues unique to Wales which must be addressed. First, changes as

:28:40.:28:46.

to how the Welsh language service is provided should be the subject of

:28:47.:28:50.

ailing which impact review as is required for public sector Welsh

:28:51.:28:54.

language schemes. Second, the administrative requirement of

:28:55.:28:57.

increased tax devolution should be identified with the views of the

:28:58.:29:01.

National Assembly of Wales. I would urge this government to reconsider

:29:02.:29:05.

the proposals. The proposals on services in Wales, Welsh speakers,

:29:06.:29:10.

services to the nation has a hole in the light of the devolution agenda

:29:11.:29:15.

and in particular, the significance of well-paid public sector jobs to a

:29:16.:29:23.

low-wage economy. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Moving more of

:29:24.:29:29.

HMRC's work out of central London, which has some of the mystics

:29:30.:29:32.

pensive office space in the world, will enable HMRC to make substantial

:29:33.:29:39.

savings. -- most expensive. It is right it makes what savings it can

:29:40.:29:44.

on property costs so the money it has can be used to improve customer

:29:45.:29:48.

service and maximise tax revenue. It cannot be sustainable for HMRC's

:29:49.:29:56.

58,000 full-time employees to be spread across 170 officers around

:29:57.:30:01.

the country. Many of them are little more than a legacy from the 1960s

:30:02.:30:08.

and 70s. It is highly inefficient. While recognising the need to

:30:09.:30:13.

modernise and reform, we do have a responsibility to make sure the HMRC

:30:14.:30:19.

staff are treated fairly. That is why I hope everything possible will

:30:20.:30:22.

be done to retain the skills and expertise we have in the HMRC by

:30:23.:30:27.

making sure that as many of the workforce as possible are

:30:28.:30:32.

redeployed. In particular, I would like to emphasise the need for

:30:33.:30:37.

support for local workers in my constituency, who choose to transfer

:30:38.:30:40.

to the Birmingham regional centre and support retraining for those who

:30:41.:30:48.

do not transfer to the new centre. I hope in undergoing these changes,

:30:49.:30:50.

the management will work closer with colleagues and see how many staff

:30:51.:30:57.

might be taken on by the Department for work and pen and is when the

:30:58.:31:00.

Merry Hill office is transferred to the DWP. My constituents in Dudley

:31:01.:31:08.

South expect the same high standards from HMRC has a do from banks and

:31:09.:31:16.

retailers. This programme will help meet these expectations. People in

:31:17.:31:21.

my constituency will also welcome the creation of a regional centre in

:31:22.:31:26.

the West Midlands, with high-quality jobs and skills that such a centre

:31:27.:31:32.

brings. I am pleased as part of a modernisation programme, HMRC plans

:31:33.:31:36.

to work with universities and local colleges, attracting the best and

:31:37.:31:42.

brightest talent. While recognising the importance of Birmingham has the

:31:43.:31:47.

second British city, I urge HMRC not to rule out the possibility of the

:31:48.:31:52.

Black Country has a suitable location for West Midlands regional

:31:53.:31:57.

centre. Quite rightly, members and residents expect HMRC to increase

:31:58.:32:03.

the amount of tax revenues collected while cutting running costs, as they

:32:04.:32:11.

have done in the last five years. An additional 11.9 billion collected

:32:12.:32:14.

last year. 87 billion in the last decade. Total tax revenue has

:32:15.:32:21.

increased in each of the past five years in which HMRC has reduced its

:32:22.:32:25.

running costs from 3.4 billion, down to 3.1 billion, including 210

:32:26.:32:32.

million of servings in sustainable costs last year alone. -- savings.

:32:33.:32:37.

But we cannot rest on our laurels. We must build on these significant

:32:38.:32:42.

achievements. We expect a lot from HMRC. Changing demand in the

:32:43.:32:47.

organisation means ways of operating which might have been appropriate in

:32:48.:32:51.

the past might not be appropriate for the future. Like all

:32:52.:32:57.

organisations, HMRC must continue to adapt it it is to be effective and

:32:58.:33:03.

responses as we would all want, while operating as efficiently as we

:33:04.:33:09.

must all surely demand. And we owe it to the HMRC leadership to allow

:33:10.:33:12.

them the independence they need to make the changes they judge are

:33:13.:33:18.

appropriate and that they have decided are necessary to meet these

:33:19.:33:27.

challenges and that is why I will be supporting the Government in

:33:28.:33:32.

opposing this motion this evening. Many thanks, Madam Liberty Speaker,

:33:33.:33:37.

for allowing me to speak in this very important date. -- Madam Deputy

:33:38.:33:42.

Speaker. It has been announced that the Plaza is to be closed in 2021.

:33:43.:33:49.

The Queensway house site will close in 2026. This is tenuous and subject

:33:50.:33:55.

to better terms with the lease at the site. The restructuring of HMRC

:33:56.:34:01.

comes as a result of the demand of the Treasury for a 30% cut to their

:34:02.:34:07.

budget to satisfy the Chancellor's austerity agenda which the majority

:34:08.:34:10.

of people in Scotland did not vote for. The result of this is many

:34:11.:34:16.

people in my constituency are facing real uncertainty and anxiety for the

:34:17.:34:21.

future because of an ideological drive to cut public services by this

:34:22.:34:27.

Westminster government. The tax office and their workforce are a

:34:28.:34:30.

significant and long-standing institution in the local community

:34:31.:34:36.

and the economy in my constituency. All of us are related to, or know

:34:37.:34:41.

somebody that works there or has done, and in fact I must declare my

:34:42.:34:44.

own grandmother worked as a tax office clerk in East Kilbride some

:34:45.:34:51.

30 years ago. Some workers might have the opportunity to be relocated

:34:52.:34:56.

to proposed regional offices. This will be of no consolation to people

:34:57.:34:59.

who will lose their jobs and will not negate the anxiety has people

:35:00.:35:04.

wait to find out that you chip. I argue that -- their future. As

:35:05.:35:11.

billions are lost to tax evasion, this makes no sense and these cuts

:35:12.:35:14.

are likely to have a detrimental impact on society, on the economy,

:35:15.:35:20.

on local and national level. Removing these jobs from the local

:35:21.:35:25.

area does not just affect employees and employees involved, but has a

:35:26.:35:30.

wider impact on the whole community. It is likely to have a significant

:35:31.:35:33.

adverse impact on local businesses, other jobs, and cause great

:35:34.:35:38.

difficulty in promoting economic growth. We want to support companies

:35:39.:35:44.

and services to locate to our constituency and not. For the

:35:45.:35:49.

workers moving to regional offices, the additional commute is also

:35:50.:35:53.

likely to impact upon their personal lives by reducing time they can

:35:54.:35:57.

spend with their families at it is likely it will have additional

:35:58.:36:01.

financial implications because of extra travel and the bearing upon

:36:02.:36:05.

childcare. These closures are counter-productive. They sent a

:36:06.:36:09.

clear message this government is going soft on tax collection and

:36:10.:36:15.

evasion. It is appalling and Draconian that three offices are

:36:16.:36:20.

proposed the close in my constituency. If I can use the

:36:21.:36:25.

analogy of Oscar Wilde, who famously wrote, to lose one parent may be

:36:26.:36:30.

regarded as a misfortune, but Toulouse two is carelessness. I

:36:31.:36:35.

would suggest losing three tax offices is unforgivable. -- but

:36:36.:36:40.

losing two looks like carelessness. It would be forever ingrained the

:36:41.:36:43.

Conservatives are not a friend of the people of East Kilbride,

:36:44.:36:49.

Strathnaver and hand less behaviour. I would urge them to go back to the

:36:50.:36:54.

drawing board. He has been described by some as reasonable. Review,

:36:55.:36:58.

conducted impact assessments, urgently meet with myself, local

:36:59.:37:04.

staff, my colleagues, devolved government and the Honourable

:37:05.:37:10.

friends that have spoken today. I am sorry, I am going to drop this

:37:11.:37:14.

speech to four minutes to accommodate everybody. The

:37:15.:37:19.

Honourable member for Wrexham mentioned earlier the surprise of

:37:20.:37:25.

this announcement. The skilled staff of the HMRC office in Inverness

:37:26.:37:30.

anticipated some change coming forward but what they got was a

:37:31.:37:37.

hammer blow. The plan to close 137 local offices and replace them with

:37:38.:37:42.

13 regional centres by 2027 hit the news that in fact it would happen in

:37:43.:37:48.

Inverness in 2017-18. Hardly any time at all to draw breath on this

:37:49.:37:54.

decision. The HMRC employs 8330 people in Scotland, with 13% of all

:37:55.:38:01.

UK HMRC staff in Scotland. Hardly a dividend worth retaining if that is

:38:02.:38:07.

the way we are being treated. The PCS union have said 11,000,

:38:08.:38:14.

full-time equivalent staff, had been cut from the HMRC since 2010 and any

:38:15.:38:19.

further cuts would be devastating and in fact, the PCS general

:38:20.:38:25.

secretary said that closing this many offices would pose a

:38:26.:38:28.

significant threat to the operation of HMRC, the service to the public,

:38:29.:38:35.

and the working lives of members of staff and there was great need for

:38:36.:38:39.

Parliamentary scrutiny of these plans. That was undeniable and

:38:40.:38:44.

urgent. I am delighted my group, the SNP, have brought this debate to

:38:45.:38:49.

this House today to do just that. In my constituency, there are more than

:38:50.:38:55.

50 staff facing losing their jobs. Many are women, many are over 50

:38:56.:39:00.

years old. Most important, all our skills, dealing with, the gated tax

:39:01.:39:05.

problems for people across the UK, not only saving the HMRC money have

:39:06.:39:10.

the taxpayer, but saving businesses from going into administration and

:39:11.:39:14.

giving advice vital for helping people. -- dealing with difficult

:39:15.:39:23.

tax problems. I have heard how they can operate with a virtual team and

:39:24.:39:26.

they have been retained many times in the past. The government talks

:39:27.:39:32.

about a more modern HMRC. Why have they not taken the time to look at

:39:33.:39:34.

Inverness, the fastest rowing city in Scotland? The member from Dudley

:39:35.:39:41.

talks about the expense of London. There is nothing expensive about

:39:42.:39:45.

Inverness. It has great people had a great facility and you are taking it

:39:46.:39:49.

away. That is not the best way to deal with something. There was no

:39:50.:39:53.

evidence of any assessment of the impact on staff with disability, or

:39:54.:40:01.

caring responsibilities, or the social and economic and

:40:02.:40:05.

environmental effects and yes, I'm happy to give way. Does his point

:40:06.:40:10.

and the points made by members on both sides of this House so part

:40:11.:40:15.

show that with the lack of an impact assessment, these proposals should

:40:16.:40:18.

be ripped up and we should start again? I completely agree with my

:40:19.:40:24.

honourable friend, the member for Glasgow South West, also vice chair

:40:25.:40:30.

of the Parliamentary group for the PBS. He knows what he's talking

:40:31.:40:36.

about. There has been no assessment. The people in my constituency, the

:40:37.:40:39.

skilled workers and people that dedicated their lives and careers to

:40:40.:40:44.

working for the HMRC have been left cold with this announcement. They

:40:45.:40:48.

have been hung out to dry. It is absolutely vital that there is a

:40:49.:40:53.

review to look at the people that have spent many years training to do

:40:54.:40:58.

a job which is very hard to do from a call centre rows were and exploit

:40:59.:41:03.

these skills, to think that would be the right thing to do, to dismiss

:41:04.:41:07.

these skills, these people, throw them on the scrapheap, that is the

:41:08.:41:09.

wrong thing to do. It is ludicrous that such a massive

:41:10.:41:21.

change would be made without any public or parliamentary

:41:22.:41:23.

consultation. There is an opportunity for you to look again at

:41:24.:41:27.

this measure. You've heard from the chamber today and you will continue

:41:28.:41:32.

to hear about the stories of people who have devoted themselves to

:41:33.:41:36.

making HMRC work and there are still huge challenges are haired for the

:41:37.:41:41.

HMRC. It's time to halt these plans and do something different that

:41:42.:41:44.

values the people working in this service, that values the collection

:41:45.:41:53.

of revenue and makes sure it is a sensible decision for the people of

:41:54.:41:56.

Scotland and the nations of the UK. Can I say it's nice to see the

:41:57.:41:59.

Treasury minister on the bench today, but it's a shame he didn't

:42:00.:42:03.

feel it necessary to come to the House of his own accord to account

:42:04.:42:08.

for his unprecedented or reorganisation of HMRC. I'd like to

:42:09.:42:12.

congratulate the SNP for securing this debate. One issue not covered

:42:13.:42:17.

so far is that of those staff on lower bands in HMRC that currently

:42:18.:42:21.

rely on tax credits to supplement their income. In order to travel

:42:22.:42:26.

from Sheffield to Leeds, some of these employees will receive access

:42:27.:42:57.

travel allowance, but because this is tax deductible, it could take

:42:58.:42:59.

them over the threshold for tax credits meaning they lose their

:43:00.:43:01.

entitlement. Is the Minister aware of this issue and will he look into

:43:02.:43:04.

the cases of those on tax credit employed by HMRC who may lose out as

:43:05.:43:07.

a result of this decision? In a county like Yorkshire, the largest

:43:08.:43:10.

in England, which can be 100 miles from Leeds, it's hard to imagine

:43:11.:43:12.

there would be significant disruption for the staff and

:43:13.:43:14.

taxpayers. What are the arrangements to deal with a county of our size

:43:15.:43:16.

being rationalised? What steps has the Minister put in place for the

:43:17.:43:19.

people in my constituency who will have 80 mile commute and also for

:43:20.:43:22.

the small business owner who lives in Grimsby who wants face-to-face

:43:23.:43:24.

advice but would now face a 150 mile round trip? The Minister and I both

:43:25.:43:27.

know it's unlikely the person would make that trip and as a result

:43:28.:43:29.

individuals will continue to be overpaid or underpaid. We know that

:43:30.:43:35.

in the last year 's mistakes in the calculation of PAYE led to almost 5

:43:36.:43:39.

million people being mistakenly overpaid or underpaid. We also know

:43:40.:43:43.

that almost a quarter of all tax investigations remain open more than

:43:44.:43:59.

12 months later and 3800 are open over three years after being opened.

:44:00.:44:01.

These issues are not new to the Government. In 2011 the Treasury

:44:02.:44:03.

Select Committee found there were unacceptable difficulties contacting

:44:04.:44:05.

HMRC and recommended that HMRC improve the service at contact

:44:06.:44:11.

service is -- centres. This recommendation is particularly

:44:12.:44:15.

relevant as many of us in this House will have had constituents contacted

:44:16.:44:18.

recently by the US multinational concentric, a company contracted by

:44:19.:44:23.

HMRC to handle some of their functions. Their performance has

:44:24.:44:28.

been little short of abysmal. A report by the NA oh in July revealed

:44:29.:44:34.

a ?75 million contract has resulted in savings of just ?500,000,

:44:35.:44:41.

somewhat short of the ?285 million projected. For the tax credit

:44:42.:44:45.

recipients bearing the brunt of this failing contract, their tax credits

:44:46.:44:48.

have been wrongly stopped and they have been unable to get in touch

:44:49.:44:53.

with them, leading to serious financial hardship. In response to

:44:54.:44:57.

the same select committee report, the Government said H R C conduct,

:44:58.:45:01.

full reviews before any changes are made to the opening hours of its

:45:02.:45:20.

face-to-face wiry centres. The recently introduced changes in 2011

:45:21.:45:22.

were made only after extensive public consultation, including a

:45:23.:45:24.

full equality impact review. It also said the physical presence of HMRC

:45:25.:45:27.

is based on a geographical picture on the areas of higher tax risk. Yet

:45:28.:45:29.

in this reorganisation there's been neither public consultation nor have

:45:30.:45:31.

the new offices locations being based on a picture of tax risk, but

:45:32.:45:34.

instead on where ever is most convenient to the Government in each

:45:35.:45:36.

region. I hope the Minister will correct me on this assumption and

:45:37.:45:41.

provide answers to the questions I've raised. We on this side of the

:45:42.:45:46.

House hope the Government recognise these closures are the falls list of

:45:47.:45:48.

all is economy is. I would like to congratulate the SNP

:45:49.:46:01.

on securing this debate. Attempts were made to get it onto the

:46:02.:46:06.

programme earlier, but the important worldwide events squeezed it out.

:46:07.:46:12.

I'd also like to congratulate the Government because they have

:46:13.:46:16.

successfully cheesed off every region and every nation in the

:46:17.:46:19.

United Kingdom in one fell swoop. They're half 300 workers in

:46:20.:46:24.

Middlesbrough and 400 in the Stockton South constituency who are

:46:25.:46:31.

affected by these closures and those officers will close in 2018 and

:46:32.:46:38.

2019. That follows the loss of 2200 jobs at SSI, 1000 contract is, more

:46:39.:46:43.

than 6000 in the supply chain, 800 workers sent home and on the same

:46:44.:46:51.

day of this announcement, 700 redundancies. I've never known such

:46:52.:46:56.

a tidal wave of job losses. For the Government to rub salt into the

:46:57.:47:00.

wound of Deeside at such a time is totally callous and a disregard for

:47:01.:47:07.

the fortunes of Teessiders. I thank the honourable member for giving

:47:08.:47:11.

way. I would like to extend the solidarity of my constituents to

:47:12.:47:16.

his. It's an insult to his constituency. Is it not

:47:17.:47:19.

extraordinary that we've heard from some members on the other side that

:47:20.:47:24.

this is all to do with modernisation and people filling out online tax

:47:25.:47:27.

returns when only a fortnight ago we were told that a trade you member

:47:28.:47:33.

can't use online balloting? My honourable friend makes a very good

:47:34.:47:40.

point. It's interesting how that rationale is so exclusively adopted

:47:41.:47:44.

for certain points, but it isn't universally spread. It's a very,

:47:45.:47:48.

very good point. The way in which this announcement was made should be

:47:49.:47:52.

for the record, it was a disgraceful stop to sneak this out in this way

:47:53.:47:59.

during a mini racers, it's not coming from a minister coming to the

:48:00.:48:03.

dispatch box, he sneaks it out on the Internet during a recess. It's a

:48:04.:48:08.

disgrace, disrespectful to the people losing jobs and disrespectful

:48:09.:48:11.

to this House and its members. They should be ashamed of themselves. I

:48:12.:48:17.

rang the Chief Executive and said what on earth are you playing at? I

:48:18.:48:22.

asked whether a socioeconomic assessment had been carried out. The

:48:23.:48:26.

minister isn't interested. People on this side. I'm sick to death of

:48:27.:48:34.

hearing from that side about I feel your pain. We are doing everything

:48:35.:48:40.

to try and help. That was what I was told about doing everything they

:48:41.:48:43.

could to look after the Deeside staff. It's a funny way of going

:48:44.:48:48.

about it to say by the way your job is going. It's ridiculous. And then

:48:49.:48:53.

they say there's over half of them who will retire in situ. That's OK

:48:54.:48:56.

because they won't suffer because they will be to stay until they are

:48:57.:49:03.

retired. Those jobs will go! They will disappear. There is no

:49:04.:49:06.

continuation, nothing for future generations coming along. Every time

:49:07.:49:11.

we have this consolidation in the north-east of England, it's always

:49:12.:49:15.

Deeside that loses out and the jobs go north. On this occasion we are

:49:16.:49:20.

talking about consolidation at Waterview Park in Sunderland. It's

:49:21.:49:26.

only 30 miles. Two hours and 25 minutes by bus. You're talking about

:49:27.:49:30.

people adding five hours to their working day. How will people go to

:49:31.:49:36.

their school open evenings, attend to their third league parents, run

:49:37.:49:40.

the girl guides or whatever it may be. What quality of life is that?

:49:41.:49:45.

There's never any regard for these things. These jobs aren't going to

:49:46.:49:50.

come back. And of course, there's no way people can maintain a decent

:49:51.:49:59.

pattern of life on this basis. There is simply more painful she sighed

:50:00.:50:03.

and the Government needs to stop these closures. There's been no

:50:04.:50:06.

proper consultation whatsoever and they should take the opportunity for

:50:07.:50:14.

targeted assistance to help Teesside attract high-quality, well-paid work

:50:15.:50:19.

that so urgently needed. What is clear today is that the Government

:50:20.:50:26.

have simply failed to make the case for these changes. They've failed to

:50:27.:50:29.

make the case in Scotland, in Northern Ireland, in Wales and in

:50:30.:50:38.

England. Not only here, with just a few loyal new MPs keen to curry

:50:39.:50:43.

favour by saying what a wonderful thing this is, alongside some

:50:44.:50:49.

hard-working constituency MPs who have said the damage this will do to

:50:50.:50:52.

their own constituency and every credit to them for doing so. More

:50:53.:50:57.

importantly, they have not made the case for these changes not only with

:50:58.:51:02.

the 8000 staff who will lose their jobs and their livelihoods, but with

:51:03.:51:08.

many businesses who are deeply concerned about these changes. Small

:51:09.:51:13.

and medium enterprises, the so-called lifeblood of our economy.

:51:14.:51:17.

They haven't made the case with chartered accountants who deal with

:51:18.:51:21.

the tax offices and do such a good job to ensure tax affairs are in

:51:22.:51:27.

order. We already know the HMRC already failed to unacceptable

:51:28.:51:31.

service level to customers. We know that from the Public Accounts

:51:32.:51:39.

report. The times of being answered going to 14 minutes 22 seconds for

:51:40.:51:46.

the average time, the average time for answering a call. Think what

:51:47.:51:51.

that means store hard-working chartered accountant, a small

:51:52.:51:55.

business in themselves. All those small businesses relying on those

:51:56.:51:58.

advice, sometimes with the need for real advice that could affect the

:51:59.:52:02.

future of their business. How can the Government possibly argue that

:52:03.:52:07.

cutting 8000 jobs will make this poor performance that isn't good

:52:08.:52:11.

enough any better? One of the members opposite said there are many

:52:12.:52:15.

things that humans can't do, but if you speak to these small businesses,

:52:16.:52:18.

these chartered accountants, the thing they say is lacking is being

:52:19.:52:23.

able to talk to people when you need advice when you're not sure. That is

:52:24.:52:27.

already not good enough, it's already more difficult to get rid of

:52:28.:52:31.

more people with local knowledge you are able to assist and advise is

:52:32.:52:37.

simply madness. In that case humans are absolutely essential that is

:52:38.:52:44.

very short-sighted thinking. My own constituent chartered accountant

:52:45.:52:46.

Stephen Oliver has been advising people in my constituency and he's

:52:47.:52:50.

been telling me for years with the inadequacies of dealing with the tax

:52:51.:52:55.

office on many many occasions. He is one of the many people who is deeply

:52:56.:52:59.

concerned that these changes will make it worse, which is why there is

:53:00.:53:03.

widespread opposition to this from the accountancy sector, which surely

:53:04.:53:06.

is widespread opposition to this from the accountancy sector, which

:53:07.:53:12.

surely something terms of those entrepreneurs, those small and

:53:13.:53:15.

medium-sized businesses, these are people not only contributing to the

:53:16.:53:19.

economy, but also who want to stay on the right side of the law, who

:53:20.:53:24.

want to fulfil their tax obligations, who want to contribute

:53:25.:53:29.

to society. Can ministers confirmed they've done an analysis to the cost

:53:30.:53:33.

of the economy? There will be a cost of the economy in lost productivity

:53:34.:53:39.

as a result of the increases in times of answering the phone.

:53:40.:53:46.

Finally, in response to my own written questions, ministers have

:53:47.:53:49.

confirmed that it's not yet finalised how many staff are being

:53:50.:53:52.

reassigned from individual offices to regional centres. Peter Bennet

:53:53.:53:59.

House in West Park is being closed, which is regrettable. Can ministers

:54:00.:54:04.

confirmed this move will be planned in a way that will have the least

:54:05.:54:08.

impact on staff and their families, something they haven't done? The

:54:09.:54:14.

Government have not made the case in any of the four Nations and they

:54:15.:54:17.

really should think again and properly consult with all those

:54:18.:54:25.

affected. Can I align myself with the comments made from members from

:54:26.:54:31.

across the House and in particulars from my region, my honourable friend

:54:32.:54:38.

from Sheffield, the honourable member from Leeds North West and in

:54:39.:54:41.

particular my new neighbour the honourable member for Shipley, who

:54:42.:54:46.

makes a very persuasive and common sense argument and I want to align

:54:47.:54:54.

and build on that. The Prime Minister, in response to my question

:54:55.:54:59.

last week in relation to HMRC meeting with Bradford MPs, his

:55:00.:55:05.

response was welcome and I appreciate the opportunity to meet

:55:06.:55:08.

with the minister to discuss my concerns. However, the second part

:55:09.:55:13.

of the Prime Minister's response was quite frankly unacceptable. A reply

:55:14.:55:19.

with statistics about the failing claimant count in Bradford is to

:55:20.:55:22.

completely miss the point. In any case, the reason the count is

:55:23.:55:26.

falling in Bradford is not because we suddenly have lots of good new

:55:27.:55:33.

jobs, it's because of sanctions, dubious self-employment and

:55:34.:55:37.

low-wage, zero our contracts. We therefore need a proper industrial

:55:38.:55:42.

strategy that addresses this short falling and helps to bring high

:55:43.:55:43.

quality, well-paid jobs to the city. The decision to close HMRC offices

:55:44.:55:54.

in Bradford would mean the loss of more than 2000 jobs from the city.

:55:55.:55:59.

These are precisely the type of jobs that we need. Regardless of how many

:56:00.:56:04.

jobs are transferred, it will have a devastating effect on the local

:56:05.:56:09.

economy. I will give way to the honourable member. Darcy echo the

:56:10.:56:15.

comments of his near neighbour from Shipley in regard to the cost which

:56:16.:56:21.

will being curbed by transferring the service to Leeds, which is an

:56:22.:56:27.

area of significantly higher rental value to a property which does not

:56:28.:56:32.

exist? How will that save money? Is that not just a false argument? I

:56:33.:56:39.

agree with my honourable friend. There is no economic case. As I said

:56:40.:56:45.

earlier, this has been ill thought out and the economic and social case

:56:46.:56:51.

in Bradford and this region as frankly not been made. The decision

:56:52.:56:57.

has come as something of a hammer blow to Bradford as there is a clear

:56:58.:57:02.

case why the officer should be situated in Bradford. It marks out

:57:03.:57:09.

the positive reason and the economic impact warning of the danger of

:57:10.:57:14.

pulling this work out of the city. We have a young and talented

:57:15.:57:17.

workforce crying out for these opportunities. Like my honourable

:57:18.:57:23.

friend stated, we have an identified site next door to the transport

:57:24.:57:29.

interchange and as well as close proximity to four popular

:57:30.:57:33.

universities, we have the internationally renowned Bradford

:57:34.:57:36.

University School of management. I also cannot find good reason why it

:57:37.:57:45.

should not all be moved to Leeds. People have complained about the

:57:46.:57:48.

lack of consultation and the fact nobody has had a chance to see, let

:57:49.:57:53.

alone scrutinise the figures they have used to come up with this plan.

:57:54.:58:00.

Would he also accept all the indications are that Leeds do not

:58:01.:58:05.

want this particular hub based here because they could have ravaged

:58:06.:58:08.

sector investment and in effect the Government have crowded out private

:58:09.:58:13.

sector investment into Leeds unnecessarily? The Honourable member

:58:14.:58:24.

makes an absolutely essential point. It could have a detrimental effect

:58:25.:58:29.

on Leeds and the private sector. As I stand here, representing Bradford,

:58:30.:58:34.

let me make clear my demand to see these figures and the argument for

:58:35.:58:39.

the move to Leeds. A decision this important must be made openly and in

:58:40.:58:44.

the full glare of public scrutiny if we are to be persuaded that this is

:58:45.:58:48.

not for the convenience of London-based civil servants.

:58:49.:58:53.

Bradford has struggled for years to overcome the effect of

:58:54.:58:58.

deindustrialisation and has had many problems to tackle. Relocating to

:58:59.:59:04.

Bradford would be a great help on the road to Radford's way forward.

:59:05.:59:10.

The city is starting to show signs of recovery and a returning of

:59:11.:59:16.

confidence. But removing these jobs from the city will be a bitter blow.

:59:17.:59:23.

I urge the Government to ask HMRC to rethink this decision and look

:59:24.:59:27.

seriously at the compelling case for Bradford and be bold enough to

:59:28.:59:36.

change their minds. Madam Deputy Speaker, it has been a very

:59:37.:59:39.

enlightening debate this afternoon. I would like to thank every single

:59:40.:59:45.

person that has participated. I was going to start by saying that

:59:46.:59:48.

clearly be house is divided in this matter. I will have to change that

:59:49.:59:55.

to clearly not. Given the many fine conurbations from the benches

:59:56.:00:00.

opposite. Many years ago there was a sociologist who said the most

:00:01.:00:05.

worrying thing is not when people debate and argue, at least they are

:00:06.:00:10.

motivated to address the issue. The biggest problem is when there is

:00:11.:00:15.

apathy and people do not take part. This afternoon I think we have had

:00:16.:00:20.

some tremendous conurbations and engagement and there is certainly no

:00:21.:00:23.

apathy in this House about this important issue. I remain the UK

:00:24.:00:28.

government has has made a serious error in closure plans. I think the

:00:29.:00:33.

majority of those that have contributed this afternoon would

:00:34.:00:37.

agree with that. My honourable friend from Livingston pointed out

:00:38.:00:47.

some ?34 billion is being lost by inefficient tax collection at the

:00:48.:00:52.

moment. At the same time, the great idea of the Government is to close

:00:53.:00:57.

offices and make redundant the very staff we need to collect these

:00:58.:01:04.

taxes. The Honourable number four Livingston in a range of

:01:05.:01:08.

shortcomings in the Government plan in concluding office and personnel

:01:09.:01:15.

cuts... I would like to refer to every single person that has made a

:01:16.:01:20.

contribution since I think all the conurbations have been important. I

:01:21.:01:27.

start with the Minister, who with his usual calm and attempted

:01:28.:01:39.

reason... With his usual very fine toured a force, I would like to pick

:01:40.:01:45.

him up on one or two points, I was aggrieved when he raised a point

:01:46.:01:49.

about Scotland and used the example of the Scottish government. Look at

:01:50.:01:53.

what they have done by bringing all these colleges together, as if it

:01:54.:01:59.

was an example of a downsizing of the whole estate in Scotland.

:02:00.:02:02.

Nothing could be further from the truth. Let me give him one example.

:02:03.:02:08.

There is now not only one college in Ayrshire, Ayrshire College, but it

:02:09.:02:15.

still retains the campus that was Ayrshire College, it retains the

:02:16.:02:22.

campus that was Kilmarnock College, and the Scottish government has now

:02:23.:02:28.

invested ?50 million expanding the campus. If I can draw attention that

:02:29.:02:36.

having met businesses within Ayrshire, they have been nothing

:02:37.:02:41.

but, mentoring about the students and businesses coming out of their

:02:42.:02:52.

college. -- nothing but comes entry. -- nothing but full of praise. And

:02:53.:02:58.

others could say things about their colleges and how they are served.

:02:59.:03:03.

The Minister made claim part of the move was to create greater

:03:04.:03:10.

efficiency. That would be clever. We have got currently, has many members

:03:11.:03:14.

have said, an inefficient way of gathering taxes, we have telephone

:03:15.:03:19.

calls that cannot be answered, letters that cannot be opened, let

:03:20.:03:25.

alone responded to. So the way we will solve this is to cut, cut and

:03:26.:03:32.

cut again. It does not make any sense. The Minister also indicated

:03:33.:03:41.

some of the closures were going to happen in such a way that it was a

:03:42.:03:45.

viable for people to move from a current location to a new one... You

:03:46.:03:55.

have stolen my very good point. I will revert to trying that in

:03:56.:04:02.

Aberdeen. I will give way to the honourable member. Madam Deputy

:04:03.:04:06.

Speaker, I thank the member for being generous. Can he try this in

:04:07.:04:13.

Enniskillen and South Tyrone where they had to go to Belfast, or maybe

:04:14.:04:19.

Glasgow, across the Irish Sea? I know Enniskillen had many places in

:04:20.:04:23.

Northern Ireland very well. I think he would agree that there are many

:04:24.:04:29.

communities, particularly on the fringes of some of the vulnerable,

:04:30.:04:33.

that will be afraid of the fact they have got to go to the big city in

:04:34.:04:39.

Belfast to have their needs met. I agree entirely. There were a number

:04:40.:04:43.

of contributions were members from the Northern Ireland group pointed

:04:44.:04:49.

out the specialist nature of their needs because of things such as

:04:50.:04:55.

cross-border issues and the like. If I turn now to the Honourable member

:04:56.:04:59.

for Roehampton, sorry, Wolverhampton South East, who I have crossed

:05:00.:05:05.

swords with on a number of occasions, he gave a typically

:05:06.:05:09.

thoughtful and detailed speech and I was grateful for that. He will

:05:10.:05:13.

forgive me if I cannot cover all of his points. I think one thing that

:05:14.:05:18.

struck me about his opening conurbation was the way in which he

:05:19.:05:22.

talked about, of course there is a need to have new technology and the

:05:23.:05:28.

best of the new way of working, but it does not mean we should deny the

:05:29.:05:31.

right of people to have human contact and get advice and guidance

:05:32.:05:36.

which can only be provided by human beings. We are not Luddites opposing

:05:37.:05:46.

the Government. Or robots! We want to see a balanced way of providing a

:05:47.:05:51.

service to the people in this important area. He also pointed to

:05:52.:05:55.

things he has rehearsed in other places as well, about the problems

:05:56.:06:00.

of the tax gap. The way in which there is a great need to have people

:06:01.:06:05.

with real expertise tackling different forms of tax evasion. He

:06:06.:06:09.

gave many helpful quotes from many different professional groups, who

:06:10.:06:14.

are with pass in opposition to what the Government is planning. The

:06:15.:06:20.

member for Shipley I thought gave a particularly fine analysis of the

:06:21.:06:25.

situation in his local area. I particularly enjoyed his freeze

:06:26.:06:30.

where he pointed out the HMRC were proposing a cack-handed approach to

:06:31.:06:35.

the way in which they were finding locations for their offices. -- his

:06:36.:06:44.

praise. It was a compelling critique of what is taking place. I thank him

:06:45.:06:49.

for that. The member for Dundee West pointed out that his city facing a

:06:50.:06:57.

?1 billion expansion in many ways is now to be denied a tax Centre for

:06:58.:07:01.

small businesses and individuals in small businesses and individuals in

:07:02.:07:07.

that great city of Dundee. What a ridiculous proposition. He raised

:07:08.:07:12.

the point that in Scotland, the Scottish government has a policy of

:07:13.:07:17.

no compulsory redundancies. We have not heard those words tripping from

:07:18.:07:23.

the time of any government minister. -- from that hung. -- from the

:07:24.:07:31.

mouth. We talked about customer service needed. I thought she gave a

:07:32.:07:38.

very balanced critique of the Government finding the means, very

:07:39.:07:44.

cleverly, to find some areas of support and I pay tribute to her for

:07:45.:07:52.

being so adept. The member for Bootle made a fine and reasoned

:07:53.:07:55.

analysis, particularly on the human contact needed and also in the

:07:56.:08:01.

disrespect that has been shown in the way in which this announcement

:08:02.:08:06.

has been placed into the public. I think he was the first to raise at

:08:07.:08:11.

this point. No doubt he will realise it was mirrored by many subsequent

:08:12.:08:16.

divisions. That is something I would like to hear the covenant saying

:08:17.:08:20.

something about in a contrite manner when we hear from them shortly. Like

:08:21.:08:24.

others, he has raised the need for impact assessment, for a quality

:08:25.:08:32.

impact assessment. I have found no effective impact assessment of any

:08:33.:08:36.

sort connected to this major initiative. Completely ridiculous.

:08:37.:08:41.

The member for South and West gave another really compelling case

:08:42.:08:48.

regarding location, if surprisingly positive about the economic strategy

:08:49.:08:51.

being pursued by the Government. -- South and West. -- Southland West.

:08:52.:09:03.

He lent his voice to a critique that even if you believe in this type of

:09:04.:09:08.

policy, you would not choose the locations which have been chosen in

:09:09.:09:16.

which to enact it. The member for Cumberland South pointed out the way

:09:17.:09:20.

in which the very significant large and well respected tax office is to

:09:21.:09:27.

be thrown to the wind along with so many other offices in Scotland... He

:09:28.:09:36.

called for greater scrutiny of the Government proposal in this regard.

:09:37.:09:42.

The member for Taunton and Dean gave a pain of praise for her government,

:09:43.:09:46.

claiming it was pursuing a policy of common sense. But yet managed to

:09:47.:09:54.

come along, once again, with a critique about the locations which

:09:55.:09:58.

were being chosen by the governed. In fact it appears from listening to

:09:59.:10:03.

almost all the contributions from the Tory benches, they like the

:10:04.:10:09.

policy, just did not agree with any one of the locations that have been

:10:10.:10:19.

chosen. The member for Wrexham talk as well about the appalling way in

:10:20.:10:24.

which this matter has been announced and the way in which it has shown

:10:25.:10:30.

disrespect to this House and the way in which it has been pursued. I

:10:31.:10:34.

particularly like the deep analysis, does not know his backside

:10:35.:10:41.

from his elbow. The member for Bexhill and Bertil gave the most

:10:42.:10:47.

loyal of speeches, I have to say. But I fear I must disagree with

:10:48.:10:55.

almost every word! If I can steal a line from somebody else, he had all

:10:56.:11:00.

the right words, just in the wrong order...

:11:01.:11:07.

Gordon Brown would never have said that. One member made mention of the

:11:08.:11:17.

Welsh language and the important of that, and the need for an impact

:11:18.:11:21.

assessment. I would say that is also something that has been missing, the

:11:22.:11:26.

lack of concern about what's happening to the Highlands and

:11:27.:11:29.

Islands and the Gaelic speaking communities in Scotland. We need

:11:30.:11:33.

proper impact analysis and proper care for the people in our

:11:34.:11:38.

communities. The member for Dudley South called for effective care and

:11:39.:11:44.

support for the workers involved, as did my honourable friend from

:11:45.:11:49.

Glasgow who made at least six interventions on similar points. The

:11:50.:11:57.

honourable member pointed out the way in which three offices in her

:11:58.:12:01.

constituency are again being cast of the wind without any real and

:12:02.:12:09.

effective consideration. I think I'm being encouraged to wind up. I'm

:12:10.:12:22.

going to quickly mention that the members for Inverness, Sheffield,

:12:23.:12:27.

Middlesbrough, Leeds North West, Bradford East... They were all

:12:28.:12:33.

brilliant. All stunning in their analysis.

:12:34.:12:42.

Thank you. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I'm not quite sure how to

:12:43.:12:53.

follow the honourable gentleman! Protecting the country's tax

:12:54.:12:58.

revenues is of course a vital part of our long-term economic plan and

:12:59.:13:02.

it's particularly important given the contributions we expect the tax

:13:03.:13:06.

system to make to delivering an overall surplus in 2019-20. We've

:13:07.:13:13.

strengthened HMRC's ability to carry out their job as effectively and

:13:14.:13:20.

visually as possible. In 2009-10 the tax gap was 7.3%. By 2014 it had

:13:21.:13:29.

fallen to 6.4%, an additional ?14.5 billion in community of tax

:13:30.:13:33.

collected. Over the last Parliament HMRC have secured an extra 100

:13:34.:13:37.

billion, including more than 38 billion from big businesses and 1.2

:13:38.:13:43.

billion from the UK's richest 6000 people. Our investments, including

:13:44.:13:48.

?800 million in the summer budget, helping HMRC recover an additional

:13:49.:14:00.

?7.2 billion, have been vital to achieving the success. It is clearly

:14:01.:14:03.

important that the structure and organisation of HR Marcie fully fit

:14:04.:14:05.

for the 21st-century and that is what these changes are about. Will

:14:06.:14:11.

you give way? I won't just at the moment if that's all right with the

:14:12.:14:15.

honourable gentleman. The primary objective is for HMRC to bring its

:14:16.:14:20.

workforce close together in regional centres so they can collaborate

:14:21.:14:24.

better, with more opportunities for economies of scale and scope and for

:14:25.:14:28.

individuals career progression. This will allow them to deliver high

:14:29.:14:33.

quality public services at a lower cost to the taxpayer. It's not

:14:34.:14:39.

sufficient to have HMRC's 58,000 employees spread throughout 170

:14:40.:14:45.

offices the UK. Whilst he's on the subject, does he want to tell the

:14:46.:14:50.

House what assessment he is made in socioeconomic terms of the damage

:14:51.:14:53.

caused to the communities that have those tax offices and those workers

:14:54.:15:01.

withdrawn from those communities? As the financial Secretary to the

:15:02.:15:03.

Treasury said, this is about moving into more efficient, more effective

:15:04.:15:10.

regional centres in which jobs will be created. The great majority of

:15:11.:15:14.

people within travel time of those regional centres and will be able to

:15:15.:15:21.

move. The consolidation... I won't at the moment. Can I see how things

:15:22.:15:26.

go? I want to cover as much as possible. The consolidation has been

:15:27.:15:31.

ongoing since the formation of HMRC in 2005, when the department had

:15:32.:15:39.

over 570 offices. In ?2014 and one old style walk in and is cast as

:15:40.:15:49.

with all the HMRC. HMRC plays with a dedicated need extra support service

:15:50.:15:54.

whereby visuals go to meet them in their own or at a convenient

:15:55.:15:59.

location. I met and spoken to HMRC staff who have changed from the

:16:00.:16:03.

modern service to you and have her how much more effective it is is 40

:16:04.:16:12.

those who need the help. Keeping HMRC's valued employees fully

:16:13.:16:15.

engaged has been a central part of this transformation programme. The

:16:16.:16:20.

proposals were initially announced 18 months internally, and since then

:16:21.:16:24.

HMRC has held around 2000 events talking to and consultant with

:16:25.:16:28.

colleagues about these changes. I will. Can I say to the Minister that

:16:29.:16:38.

what we've got here is a really lazy reorganisation by HMRC, just a

:16:39.:16:41.

theatre have fixed size of the figures place in the region or the

:16:42.:16:44.

one that is easiest for the London staff to get to by train. Can I ask

:16:45.:16:49.

you to listen to this debate and go away and come back and look at this

:16:50.:16:52.

thing from properly local perspective, covering the issues

:16:53.:16:58.

raised in the debate today is that --? I'm very grateful to my

:16:59.:17:04.

honourable friend and I can assure him that is not the way in which the

:17:05.:17:10.

process was, about to identify the locations. It is a combination site

:17:11.:17:16.

specific location criteria that my honourable friend enumerators

:17:17.:17:20.

earlier, and also, critically, mapping out where HMRC staff live in

:17:21.:17:27.

order to calculate what counts as reasonable travel distance and what

:17:28.:17:33.

locations those individuals can reasonably travel to. In the case of

:17:34.:17:37.

Leeds and Bradford, it is the case that there are 130 more staff

:17:38.:17:42.

currently employed by HMRC who are within reasonable travel time of

:17:43.:17:47.

Leeds and of Bradford. I'll take one more. What does the minister saves

:17:48.:17:53.

to my constituents who have had half a century of connection with the

:17:54.:18:00.

civil servants, which has 2500 jobs in it. What do you say to the town

:18:01.:18:03.

that will be devastated when they move out? I say that there are a

:18:04.:18:13.

great number of job opportunities in Liverpool will stop and quite nearby

:18:14.:18:17.

to the honourable gentleman's constituency. This will be a

:18:18.:18:21.

different operation where there will be more disciplines: Located in the

:18:22.:18:26.

same building, where there will be more opportunities for a

:18:27.:18:30.

collaborative and effective working, and also career progression and

:18:31.:18:33.

development for the people concerned. Everyone working for HMRC

:18:34.:18:38.

will have the opportunity to discuss their personal circumstances with

:18:39.:18:42.

their manager ahead of any office closures or moves, including any

:18:43.:18:45.

issues that need to be taken into account when making decisions.

:18:46.:18:50.

Furthermore, as I just said, HMRC has mapped out the geographical

:18:51.:18:53.

location of all its employees to work out which are the locations

:18:54.:20:47.

What counts as reasonable travel time? That will depend on the

:20:48.:20:54.

circumstances of the individual, including considering things like

:20:55.:21:04.

caring responsibilities... Typically a reasonable travel time is taken to

:21:05.:21:08.

be around an hour, but that does not mean that is correct that does not

:21:09.:21:13.

mean that is correct for everybody in every circumstance in every

:21:14.:21:18.

location. A number of members, including the honourable gentleman

:21:19.:21:23.

members from Middlesbrough, and elsewhere, complained about the

:21:24.:21:26.

manner in which the announcement came out. I make no apology for the

:21:27.:21:32.

fact staff were told... Staff were told first. On the day of the

:21:33.:21:38.

announcement, the entire HMRC senior team was out in the field at the

:21:39.:21:43.

office locations in order to carry out one-to-one discussions with

:21:44.:21:51.

staff. The direction of travel had been shared with staff some 18

:21:52.:21:54.

months earlier and in the intervening time some 2000 events up

:21:55.:21:58.

and down the country to discuss the changes. In terms of contact and

:21:59.:22:05.

discussion with MPs, I can commit that HMRC will be happy to discuss

:22:06.:22:17.

with MPs. If you'll forgive me, because of the time. I wanted to

:22:18.:22:21.

respond to a couple of the specific points that honourable members have

:22:22.:22:26.

raised in relation to their constituencies. On the question of

:22:27.:22:31.

Shipley and Bradford, my honourable friend the financial Secretary, as

:22:32.:22:37.

they know, has agreed to meet the Bradford MPs. It's also the case

:22:38.:22:41.

that the chief executives of HMRC are due to meet as well to discuss

:22:42.:22:48.

this issue. We heard about both Chatham and Chelmsford and I should

:22:49.:22:54.

explain that those are both two stage programmes with a transitional

:22:55.:22:59.

arrangement in place for three or four years at Maidstone and Southend

:23:00.:23:02.

respectively. The honourable gentleman from 2-1 raised the point

:23:03.:23:12.

about the location centre it stretches over a number of years and

:23:13.:23:17.

I think it's right that is you going to a commercial negotiation over

:23:18.:23:20.

premises, and this came up separately in the debate in a

:23:21.:23:27.

different context, you don't identify the exact location that you

:23:28.:23:30.

have in mind because of course, as his honourable friend says, that

:23:31.:23:34.

would put up the price that was asked. I want to reassure the

:23:35.:23:38.

honourable lady from Lloyd Kun route that HMRC is very conscious about

:23:39.:23:43.

the importance of the wench language service and intends there to be no

:23:44.:23:47.

denigration of service to Welsh speakers as a result of these

:23:48.:23:51.

changes, and also to reassure colleagues from Northern Ireland

:23:52.:23:53.

that we expect the number of staff in Northern Ireland to go up at the

:23:54.:23:59.

end of this period rather than down. HMRC recognise the unique issues in

:24:00.:24:05.

the province. The Scotland specific proposals will see the opening of

:24:06.:24:09.

two regional centres in Glasgow and Edinburgh and a specialist crime

:24:10.:24:13.

Centre will be maintained at Gartcosh. The discussions with

:24:14.:24:18.

individual employees are ongoing. HMRC's presents in Scotland will

:24:19.:24:22.

remain consistent at 12% of the total workforce, as against around

:24:23.:24:31.

8%. As against 8% of the total United Kingdom population. To

:24:32.:24:34.

respond to the honourable member the Dundee West, the 600 jobs at Sid

:24:35.:24:39.

Lowe House will move to the Department for Work and Pensions

:24:40.:24:42.

whilst for those that Caledonia House who are outside reasonable

:24:43.:24:46.

travel of the regional centre we will do everything possible to find

:24:47.:24:49.

alternative options working one-to-one with those people. I

:24:50.:24:59.

can't because I'm coming... I'll As many as are of the opinion, say

:25:00.:25:05.

"aye". To the contrary, "no". The ayes have it. The question is as on

:25:06.:25:11.

the order paper. As many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the

:25:12.:25:16.

contrary, "no". Division, clear the lobby.

:25:17.:25:19.

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