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Order, order. Questions to the Secretary of State for Foreign and | :00:19. | :00:26. | |
Commonwealth Affairs Mr Fabian Hamilton. Question one, Mr Speaker. | :00:27. | :00:35. | |
During last month's state visit my right honourable friend the Prime | :00:36. | :00:39. | |
Minister and the president discussed the importance of issues on which we | :00:40. | :00:45. | |
disagree, including human rights. I also set out the government's | :00:46. | :00:49. | |
position on Tibet, including our human rights concerns in a | :00:50. | :00:52. | |
Parliamentary debate secured by the honourable gentleman in June. I | :00:53. | :00:57. | |
thank the Minister for that answer. The Minister will be aware that the | :00:58. | :01:01. | |
UN committee against torture met last week in Geneva to review | :01:02. | :01:06. | |
China's record and expressed serious concerns over its continued use of | :01:07. | :01:10. | |
torture to extract confessions from prisoners. In its response, the | :01:11. | :01:14. | |
Chinese delegation denied all allegations of endemic, systemic am | :01:15. | :01:19. | |
a systematic acts of torture. China also claims to hold no political | :01:20. | :01:25. | |
prisoners at all. Bilby Minister or the Foreign Secretary ensure that | :01:26. | :01:32. | |
the routine use of torture in jails is raised with China at the next UN | :01:33. | :01:37. | |
human rights Council? In Tibet or anywhere else, we would raise these | :01:38. | :01:41. | |
matters. May I congratulate the honourable gentleman in keeping | :01:42. | :01:45. | |
Tibet at the forefront of this House's deliberations. We had to | :01:46. | :01:50. | |
debate recently. I should say that during the recent state visit, which | :01:51. | :01:54. | |
was a huge success, the president acknowledged the importance of | :01:55. | :01:56. | |
improving human rights protection and said China was ready for | :01:57. | :02:00. | |
increased cooperation on this issue with the UK. The UK is one of the | :02:01. | :02:04. | |
few countries in the world to have an annual human rights dialogue with | :02:05. | :02:09. | |
China, and that is an important architecture within which to press | :02:10. | :02:12. | |
the Chinese, and to raise these matters. We shall continue to do so. | :02:13. | :02:21. | |
Mr Speaker, the Minister will recall in an exchange on October 22 he | :02:22. | :02:24. | |
confirmed that China is ready to cooperate with the UK and other | :02:25. | :02:28. | |
countries in the area of human rights. On the subject of Tibet, but | :02:29. | :02:34. | |
also the persecution of practitioners, the alleged | :02:35. | :02:37. | |
harvesting of organs, were those matters discussed with the Chinese | :02:38. | :02:43. | |
president when he visited the UK? Well, the honourable gentleman | :02:44. | :02:47. | |
credit me with almost total recall, but I will say that our position has | :02:48. | :02:52. | |
been consistent on this matter. My right honourable friend on these | :02:53. | :02:59. | |
issues, did raise these matters with the state councillor during the | :03:00. | :03:03. | |
strategic dialogue with China in Beijing in August. We have also | :03:04. | :03:08. | |
raised specific concerns over reports of organ harvesting on | :03:09. | :03:12. | |
numerous occasions, including in answer to a written question on July | :03:13. | :03:20. | |
the 15th. Catherine West. Could the Minister please tell the House what | :03:21. | :03:23. | |
discussions have taken place to promote the importance of the | :03:24. | :03:27. | |
freedom of religious expression in Tibet, and in particular amongst the | :03:28. | :03:32. | |
weaker people? I would say to the honourable lady, these are issues | :03:33. | :03:36. | |
which we raise consistently with the Chinese within the framework of the | :03:37. | :03:41. | |
UK Chinese human rights dialogue. We publish the report which is updated | :03:42. | :03:49. | |
every six months. The recent comments about the state visit, that | :03:50. | :03:52. | |
the ratio with China is now based purely on one of commerce, this is | :03:53. | :03:58. | |
wrong. This is not a winery relationship. So as we get closer to | :03:59. | :04:03. | |
the Chinese we are seen as a good partner to China, and in terms of | :04:04. | :04:07. | |
inward investment and trade with both countries, so we can discuss | :04:08. | :04:10. | |
these things with him in a more mature way than many other countries | :04:11. | :04:16. | |
can, it boils down to whether or not you believe in megaphone diplomacy | :04:17. | :04:18. | |
by getting alongside the people you are trying to talk to and pointing | :04:19. | :04:22. | |
out that the way to do things is the way that we do things. Question two. | :04:23. | :04:30. | |
The UK is actively supporting UN efforts led by the Secretary | :04:31. | :04:35. | |
General's new special representative to reach a lasting political | :04:36. | :04:40. | |
agreement in Libya. We are also helping Tunisia and other North | :04:41. | :04:46. | |
African countries to develop their economies, as well as strengthening | :04:47. | :04:49. | |
their CTK abilities. I will be visiting Tunisia shortly to assess | :04:50. | :04:58. | |
the effectiveness of UK medical and strategic cooperation and I will | :04:59. | :05:00. | |
meet with the representative later this week. With the secretary of | :05:01. | :05:06. | |
state agrees that it is in our interests that those countries at | :05:07. | :05:11. | |
risk of extremist infiltration receives support controlling their | :05:12. | :05:17. | |
borders? Yes, I would agree with that. What we have recognised since | :05:18. | :05:23. | |
the attacks in Tunisia is that we need to focus more attention on | :05:24. | :05:28. | |
those countries that are one step away from the chaos that is going on | :05:29. | :05:32. | |
in Libya, countries that are making a success of things might but which | :05:33. | :05:38. | |
still have some fun abilities, and which are being targeted by the | :05:39. | :05:43. | |
extremists. We need to help them to build resilience against extremism. | :05:44. | :05:51. | |
The Minister will know that Tunisia's economy has been badly hit | :05:52. | :05:58. | |
to the collapse of its tourist industry. What steps is he taking to | :05:59. | :06:06. | |
help other countries reach stability, particularly those in the | :06:07. | :06:10. | |
Gulf States? We need to work with the Tunisians to improve security so | :06:11. | :06:15. | |
that the tourist trade can resume as soon as is practical. The EU is also | :06:16. | :06:22. | |
looking at relaxation of olive oil quotas to allow Tunisia greater | :06:23. | :06:25. | |
access to the European market for olive oil, a product which it has | :06:26. | :06:30. | |
plenty, if it is able to export it. My honourable friend, the | :06:31. | :06:36. | |
Parliamentary undersecretary, visited the country a few weeks ago | :06:37. | :06:40. | |
and discussed a 49 .1 with the Tunisians around support for the | :06:41. | :06:45. | |
economy, and we are with the French seeking to act as the cheerleaders | :06:46. | :06:50. | |
for support for the Tunisian economy within the EU. With the Foreign | :06:51. | :06:56. | |
Secretary agree with me that we should also take this opportunity to | :06:57. | :07:02. | |
encourage organisations such as the foundation for democracy, and a | :07:03. | :07:05. | |
range of other organisations and institutions within our Western | :07:06. | :07:10. | |
allies, United States, France and Germany, to name but three? The work | :07:11. | :07:14. | |
they can do to ensure that we have political stability and democracy to | :07:15. | :07:20. | |
other North African countries. Yes, I agree with my honourable friend, | :07:21. | :07:25. | |
and of course Tunisia is ahead of the game, as it were. One of the | :07:26. | :07:32. | |
success stories of the 2011 Arab Spring with a functioning | :07:33. | :07:35. | |
constitution, democratic elections, but all of it challenged by the | :07:36. | :07:40. | |
desire of the extremists to target success stories like that. We must | :07:41. | :07:49. | |
stand with them. Mr Speaker, I am sure the Foreign Secretary will join | :07:50. | :07:53. | |
us in expressing outrage at the terrorist atrocity in Mali in which | :07:54. | :07:56. | |
22 were slaughtered, citizens of China, Mali, Belgium, amongst | :07:57. | :08:06. | |
others, and we now see affiliated organisations operating across the | :08:07. | :08:12. | |
wider area, could he say what is happening across the Sahara to | :08:13. | :08:19. | |
tackle terrorism? We are working with a wide range of countries, | :08:20. | :08:25. | |
including crucially Nigeria, because this is a pincer movement coming | :08:26. | :08:31. | |
across the Sahara, so we are working with the full range of countries. | :08:32. | :08:35. | |
But I would say that if we are going to stop this spread of terrorism, we | :08:36. | :08:41. | |
have two tackle it at its heart, and its heart is in Raqqa in Syria. The | :08:42. | :08:50. | |
security situation in the Sinai is a threat to Egypt, other countries in | :08:51. | :08:54. | |
North Africa, as well as the coalition against Isil, as we saw | :08:55. | :08:59. | |
with the recent terrorist attack. What is the Foreign Secretary's | :09:00. | :09:03. | |
assessment of the security situation and its impact in Sinai? The | :09:04. | :09:09. | |
security situation in Sinai is serious. The Egyptian army is | :09:10. | :09:14. | |
engaged in combat with terrorist groups across Sinai, and in fact on | :09:15. | :09:19. | |
the Foreign Office's travel advice recommends against all travel to | :09:20. | :09:26. | |
Sinai, except the area around Sharm el-Sheikh which is itself still | :09:27. | :09:29. | |
considered safe for travel, although travel through the airport is | :09:30. | :09:36. | |
advised against. We seek to work with the Egyptian authorities to | :09:37. | :09:40. | |
deal with the terrorist challenge that they are facing in Sinai. Does | :09:41. | :09:45. | |
the Foreign Secretary believe that further air strikes alone will move | :09:46. | :09:51. | |
us towards political stability in the wider region? Perhaps he could | :09:52. | :09:56. | |
take this opportunity to address the efficacy of military intervention in | :09:57. | :09:59. | |
Syria, and how it would contribute to a wider initiative to end civil | :10:00. | :10:03. | |
war and does he have a plan for securing the peace, a plan which | :10:04. | :10:08. | |
should include measures to close down all sources of finance and new | :10:09. | :10:13. | |
recruits to the terrorist cult, including a government inquiry into | :10:14. | :10:17. | |
their financing question mark why is this government attempted to make a | :10:18. | :10:22. | |
case for war while Felling to address the need for a long-term | :10:23. | :10:24. | |
competency of peace plan? I think the short answer is that air | :10:25. | :10:39. | |
strikes alone will not alone destroy Daesh. But they have to be a part of | :10:40. | :10:48. | |
the overall solution. In respect of our other specific enquiries, if she | :10:49. | :10:51. | |
will wait until Thursday, she can look forward to hearing from the | :10:52. | :10:56. | |
Prime Minister himself into how this fits into our wider strategy. I wait | :10:57. | :11:02. | |
in anticipation for Thursday's statement. I am also grateful for | :11:03. | :11:08. | |
the use of Daesh and all the other parties will follow suit. The US are | :11:09. | :11:16. | |
bombing Daesh. France are also targeting rebels. Turkey are bombing | :11:17. | :11:22. | |
Daesh and are bombing Kurdish forces in the North. If military action | :11:23. | :11:29. | |
forces Daesh give up Sony and Iraq, in the coming weeks and months, | :11:30. | :11:35. | |
which forced us the foreign secretary expected take its place on | :11:36. | :11:41. | |
the ground? Again, the short answer is the honourable lady is correctly | :11:42. | :11:46. | |
identifying the situation is complex. As the Prime Minister | :11:47. | :11:50. | |
himself has said, we have to resolve these two things in parallel. We | :11:51. | :11:54. | |
have to get a political solution to the Civil War in Syria so we can get | :11:55. | :11:59. | |
everybody dealing with the problem of Daesh instead of fighting each | :12:00. | :12:03. | |
other. That is what our comprehensive strategy will seek to | :12:04. | :12:13. | |
achieve. I discuss progress on central registers of the central | :12:14. | :12:22. | |
Cayman Islands and brand-new dog yesterday. -- berm you does. Paul | :12:23. | :12:33. | |
Moynihan. The Prime Minister wrote to the overseas territories. It is | :12:34. | :12:46. | |
clear that the Prime Minister wants the overseas territories to have | :12:47. | :12:54. | |
public registers of ownership. Can he ensure that overseas territories | :12:55. | :12:57. | |
adopt public registers or at the very least ensure access for the | :12:58. | :13:08. | |
public. I think the honourable gentleman should give the overseas | :13:09. | :13:12. | |
territories where credit is due. Progress has been made to central | :13:13. | :13:17. | |
registers full working on security forces and police forces access to | :13:18. | :13:22. | |
that register. But longer term, he is entirely right. The public access | :13:23. | :13:27. | |
to that information is the direction we need to go and will have to go | :13:28. | :13:31. | |
alternately. But the Overseas Territory 's are making progress. | :13:32. | :13:38. | |
Can my right honourable friend let us know what progress we have made | :13:39. | :13:47. | |
on tax evasion? This is a clear area where progress has already been | :13:48. | :13:51. | |
made. The territories have fulfilled their commitments are automatic tax | :13:52. | :13:55. | |
exchange and this was achieved in working in partnership with them. | :13:56. | :14:04. | |
Number four, Sir. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I would like to group this | :14:05. | :14:09. | |
with question 15. One of the five principal strands of Isil strategy | :14:10. | :14:17. | |
is stabilisation support. The UK has spent in the forefront in providing | :14:18. | :14:21. | |
humanitarian support with ?1 billion committed to supporting host | :14:22. | :14:32. | |
countries. I am grateful to my honourable friend for that answer. | :14:33. | :14:37. | |
Will the Minister while carrying on this important work will work flat | :14:38. | :14:45. | |
out to build a robust and energised consensus against Isil among the | :14:46. | :14:50. | |
other countries in the Middle East? Mr Speaker, he is right. We must be | :14:51. | :14:55. | |
energised. The government is committed to working with the now 65 | :14:56. | :15:00. | |
strong counter Isil coalition. On our 5-point strategy. Cutting off | :15:01. | :15:11. | |
Daesh's funding scream. Providing humanitarian stabilisation support I | :15:12. | :15:17. | |
have mentioned already. -- stream. Does my right honourable friend | :15:18. | :15:22. | |
agreed that we must do all we can to support those living in refugee | :15:23. | :15:25. | |
camps. And to ensure that they can return to their homes and rebuild | :15:26. | :15:33. | |
their lives and safety and security? We have done a lot to do just that, | :15:34. | :15:40. | |
to allow people to stay in the region, to help the vulnerable who | :15:41. | :15:44. | |
need to be taken away from the region and supported. Which is why | :15:45. | :15:48. | |
we are taking 20,000 refugees here in the UK. They are not allowed to | :15:49. | :15:57. | |
be working illegally. What is the government doing to help countries | :15:58. | :16:02. | |
like Jordan economic lace of that can change and that refugees can't | :16:03. | :16:13. | |
work legally? That is a valid point. A bit of tension locally with people | :16:14. | :16:19. | |
in the camp, willing to be paid less but wanting to work. We're working | :16:20. | :16:24. | |
programmes and United Nations, so programmes and United Nations, so | :16:25. | :16:27. | |
that they can feel that they can keep skills up. So when the guns | :16:28. | :16:31. | |
finally fall silent in Syria, we need those skills to be transferred | :16:32. | :16:37. | |
back into the country. When I visited the refugee camp, I could | :16:38. | :16:40. | |
see first-hand the amount of aid that the UK government is giving to | :16:41. | :16:45. | |
help the situation of the ground in Syria, as well as in Lebanon in | :16:46. | :16:49. | |
Turkey and well swear. The UK is the second highest honour to those | :16:50. | :16:53. | |
countries. Can the Minister update us as to what progress he has made | :16:54. | :16:57. | |
in getting other neighbouring countries and other partners to make | :16:58. | :17:01. | |
their proper contribution to helping humanitarian crisis in the region? | :17:02. | :17:07. | |
Firstly, I am grateful for his support. Sometimes this number of | :17:08. | :17:12. | |
20,000 refugees that we are taking in the UK is taken out of context, | :17:13. | :17:16. | |
in comparison with the work we are doing to support those, such as | :17:17. | :17:21. | |
those in the Zaatari count. We are providing support to other countries | :17:22. | :17:25. | |
but we are also encouraging the neighbours. That is why we are | :17:26. | :17:29. | |
hosting a conference here in February along with Kuwait to | :17:30. | :17:32. | |
encourage other countries to provide a conference here in February along | :17:33. | :17:34. | |
with Kuwait to encourage other countries to provide donations so we | :17:35. | :17:36. | |
can be ready for post-conflict reconstruction balls in Iraq and in | :17:37. | :17:48. | |
Syria. -- both ends. I discussed the situation in Syria to recent of the | :17:49. | :17:54. | |
support Syria support group. The Prime Minister discussed Syria with | :17:55. | :17:58. | |
President Putin at the margins of the G20 summit last week. When I saw | :17:59. | :18:05. | |
represents the most immediate threat to our national security, we should | :18:06. | :18:09. | |
be targeting its headquarters in Syria instead of leaving military | :18:10. | :18:16. | |
action there to other countries? I think, Mr Speaker, my honourable | :18:17. | :18:19. | |
friend knows my views and reviews of the Prime Minister very well. We do | :18:20. | :18:23. | |
believe it is morally unacceptable to outsource an action which is | :18:24. | :18:29. | |
essential to the defence of the United Kingdom and UK citizens | :18:30. | :18:33. | |
around the world to others. That is why we will be seeking to build a | :18:34. | :18:38. | |
consensus in this House for taking military action to Daesh and Raqqa. | :18:39. | :18:45. | |
Regarding the situation in Syria, has the Foreign Secretary 's seen | :18:46. | :18:50. | |
the letter into the's Times paper were nearly 200 Islamic scholars | :18:51. | :18:55. | |
have denounced the strongest possible terms, ISAs terror. That is | :18:56. | :19:00. | |
the sort of propaganda we should use and the foreign office should use in | :19:01. | :19:04. | |
every way in all parts of the world. Shouldn't we make it perfectly | :19:05. | :19:09. | |
clear, as they have done, that the atrocities in Paris have nothing to | :19:10. | :19:14. | |
do with the wicked West. We went to war over Kosovo in order to protect | :19:15. | :19:24. | |
Muslims and we were right to do so. -- Isis. Our position is a moral | :19:25. | :19:29. | |
position. We are defending the right of people, Christians, years the | :19:30. | :19:34. | |
Dees, Jews and Muslims to practice their religion freely against | :19:35. | :19:39. | |
tyranny that imposes its view by beheadings, by rates, by mass | :19:40. | :19:44. | |
deportations. And we must end this terror. He is right, that are vital | :19:45. | :19:49. | |
to in our armoury is the very substantial body of thoughtful, | :19:50. | :19:56. | |
moderate Islamic scholarship around the world. And we, when I say we, | :19:57. | :20:01. | |
all nations of goodwill, this should be essentially led by the Muslim | :20:02. | :20:05. | |
countries of the world. We need to ensure that that view prevails. We | :20:06. | :20:09. | |
need to help the Muslims of the world reclaim their religion from | :20:10. | :20:15. | |
the extremists. Is my honourable friend aware of the appalling news | :20:16. | :20:18. | |
this morning that a Russian bomber has been shot down by a Nato | :20:19. | :20:24. | |
country, Turkey. Is this not a potentially dangerous situation | :20:25. | :20:27. | |
given that nothing like that happened during the whole of the | :20:28. | :20:31. | |
Cold War. If we are going to get a solution in the north, we need to | :20:32. | :20:34. | |
look at building a moderate Sunni regime. That may go back, we may | :20:35. | :20:40. | |
have to go back to read drying the boundaries. Mr Speaker, I review and | :20:41. | :20:47. | |
the strong view of all of our partners and allies is that we need | :20:48. | :20:53. | |
to preserve the territorial integrity of Syria. If we start | :20:54. | :20:58. | |
opening up boundaries in the region, I can promise my honourable friend | :20:59. | :21:02. | |
we will prolong the agony. As far as the reports coming in this morning | :21:03. | :21:08. | |
of a potential Russian air force jet shot down near the Turkish border, | :21:09. | :21:13. | |
we are seeking further details urgently bores and gong Kok -- | :21:14. | :21:18. | |
Moscow and Ankara. This is potentially a serious incident. But | :21:19. | :21:23. | |
it will not be unwise to comment further until we have the facts. | :21:24. | :21:29. | |
Following their shockingly brutal attacks in Paris, no one doubts that | :21:30. | :21:34. | |
we have to defeat Daesh in both Iraq and in Syria. This must be linked to | :21:35. | :21:39. | |
the urgent need for the peace line to end the Civil War in Syria. Can | :21:40. | :21:44. | |
he tell the House when he expects a decision to be reached on which | :21:45. | :21:47. | |
opposition groups will take part in the talks due to start on the 1st of | :21:48. | :21:52. | |
January? What is as current assessment of the chances of | :21:53. | :21:56. | |
securing a ceasefire as part of these discussions about the | :21:57. | :21:59. | |
formation of a transitional government? As the right -- right | :22:00. | :22:10. | |
honourable gentleman has said, it is the heart of the group s' work. They | :22:11. | :22:16. | |
are tasked with the drawing up a list, and agreed list, of opposition | :22:17. | :22:22. | |
participants. I hope that when the team meets next, and we expect that | :22:23. | :22:26. | |
to beat in the second week of December, that we will be able to | :22:27. | :22:31. | |
approve a list at that point. It is right that I should emphasise that | :22:32. | :22:36. | |
there are still some differences among the international support | :22:37. | :22:39. | |
group. The Russians and Iranians do not take the same view of who is an | :22:40. | :22:45. | |
acceptable interlocutor as are other partners do. I thank the Foreign | :22:46. | :22:51. | |
Secretary for that reply. The unanimous agreement of UNC to the | :22:52. | :22:58. | |
Council resolution to 249 last Friday was a significant moment in | :22:59. | :23:01. | |
the fight against Daesh because the world community has come together to | :23:02. | :23:06. | |
fight this evil, using in the words of the resolution, all necessary | :23:07. | :23:11. | |
measures. Can the right honourable gentleman give us an idea of how | :23:12. | :23:35. | |
macro three's position in Syria -- Daesh's is two events around the | :23:36. | :23:39. | |
world? As the Prime Minister has said on many occasions, there is no | :23:40. | :23:43. | |
doubt that the head of this multi-tentacled monster is in Raqqa, | :23:44. | :23:49. | |
in Syria. Its logistics, is controlling brain, its strategic | :23:50. | :23:54. | |
Communications, which are extremely effective, are all run from that | :23:55. | :23:58. | |
headquarters. We will not destroy it by cutting off its limbs, we can | :23:59. | :24:02. | |
only destroy it by going for the heart. It is right that I should say | :24:03. | :24:06. | |
that some of the activity conducted around the world in the name of Isil | :24:07. | :24:12. | |
is directed, clearly directed, from Raqqa. In other cases, it is | :24:13. | :24:19. | |
inspired by Isil propaganda, but not directly controlled from Raqqa. So | :24:20. | :24:30. | |
it is a mixture. Our immediate priority is to ensure that it passes | :24:31. | :24:38. | |
into law. The government is also committed to supporting efforts to | :24:39. | :24:40. | |
maximise registration and the electoral commission plans a | :24:41. | :24:43. | |
campaign in the run-up to the campaign in the run-up to the | :24:44. | :24:49. | |
referendum itself. Given that the unelected House of Lords are now | :24:50. | :24:53. | |
calling for voting franchise to be extended to 16 and 17-year-olds. And | :24:54. | :24:57. | |
given the change in public attitudes, could the government look | :24:58. | :25:06. | |
again and legislate the franchise? This House, the elected House has | :25:07. | :25:10. | |
voted on three occasions in recent months against lowering the voting | :25:11. | :25:15. | |
age to 16 for this referendum. The government will propose to overturn | :25:16. | :25:19. | |
this latest amendment from the Lords. I have to say it is a bit | :25:20. | :25:24. | |
rich for him and his party to carp about the franchise when they voted | :25:25. | :25:26. | |
against having a referendum at all. Will he sure that be sufficient time | :25:27. | :25:44. | |
to have both arguments before having the referendum itself on the EU? I | :25:45. | :25:48. | |
can assure my honourable friend that there will be ample time for those | :25:49. | :25:52. | |
arguments to be aired, both in this House and outside. Can I pressed the | :25:53. | :25:59. | |
minister a little bit further on this issue of 16 and 17-year-old. | :26:00. | :26:04. | |
The other house passed their amendment by a big majority on the | :26:05. | :26:10. | |
18th of November on this. There are rumours of disagreements within the | :26:11. | :26:14. | |
government and within the Cabinet on how to respond. The Prime | :26:15. | :26:29. | |
Minister... The Prime Minister has left the door open so far to change | :26:30. | :26:34. | |
in the West is that he has been asked previously about this. We know | :26:35. | :26:38. | |
that 16 and 17-year-olds are capable of understanding the issues. We know | :26:39. | :26:42. | |
that they are interested and want to take part, so why won't the Minister | :26:43. | :26:48. | |
agree to the amendment and give 16 and 17-year-olds a proper say in the | :26:49. | :26:53. | |
future of our country? There are honourable members in various parts | :26:54. | :27:01. | |
of the House who champion the cause of reducing the voting age to 16, | :27:02. | :27:05. | |
but I would say to the right honourable gentleman that the right | :27:06. | :27:08. | |
time to debate that issue is during legislation where such a change | :27:09. | :27:15. | |
would apply to the franchise for all elections and referendums, and not | :27:16. | :27:19. | |
just as a one-off tacked onto a bill for a particular referendum. Carolyn | :27:20. | :27:26. | |
Harris. Question seven, Mr Speaker. I discussed the current migration | :27:27. | :27:33. | |
rises with my EU counterparts on a regular basis, for example be | :27:34. | :27:36. | |
foreign affairs Council last Monday, in Brussels, and when I met with a | :27:37. | :27:41. | |
group of EU countries in Prague the previous Friday. All of them agree | :27:42. | :27:47. | |
on the importance of a competence of approach to tackling the underlying | :27:48. | :27:53. | |
causes of regular migration, and the UK is playing a leading role in | :27:54. | :27:59. | |
delivering this approach. Maybe the minister could share with us what | :28:00. | :28:03. | |
progress is being made with our European colleagues to create simple | :28:04. | :28:08. | |
and safe routes for refugees to be united with their families who have | :28:09. | :28:15. | |
already found Santry in Britain? -- sanctuary. The refugees we are | :28:16. | :28:20. | |
mainly discussing in terms of the question she asked about discussions | :28:21. | :28:23. | |
with my EU colleagues are those who are arriving within the Schengen | :28:24. | :28:29. | |
area. Clearly, those people, since people are -- Britain is not in that | :28:30. | :28:38. | |
area, would not be able to access the UK in the normal course of | :28:39. | :28:39. | |
events, so their future will be within the Schengen area, unless at | :28:40. | :28:43. | |
some point they pertain EU citizenship. Will my right | :28:44. | :28:49. | |
honourable friend explain what's more action can be taken to stop | :28:50. | :28:56. | |
resident Assad's murder of his own people, which is contributing to the | :28:57. | :28:59. | |
refugee crisis that we are seeing at the moment? Mr Speaker, she is | :29:00. | :29:14. | |
absolutely right. The honourable lady is absolutely right. Clearly | :29:15. | :29:19. | |
there is agreement across the European Union that we need to | :29:20. | :29:22. | |
address these issues upstream, and one of the most pressing challenges | :29:23. | :29:27. | |
is the Civil War in Syria. As I have already said once this afternoon, | :29:28. | :29:31. | |
the Prime Minister will set out our preference of approach to that | :29:32. | :29:35. | |
problem, military, political and two and, on Thursday. As part of those | :29:36. | :29:41. | |
discussions with the European Council, what part of those | :29:42. | :29:47. | |
discussions are centred on the real genocide that is happening, | :29:48. | :29:52. | |
including in UN HCI refugee camps in Lebanon, Jordan, the Kurdish | :29:53. | :29:56. | |
autonomous region, I radicalised Islamist linked to Daesh, who are | :29:57. | :30:02. | |
killing Christians in those camps and driving them out of them? I | :30:03. | :30:08. | |
would have to tell the honourable gentleman candidly that that has not | :30:09. | :30:11. | |
been the focus of discussion in foreign affairs Council about the | :30:12. | :30:16. | |
migration crisis, but I am aware of concerns about what is going on in | :30:17. | :30:20. | |
the camp, and of course the UK's approach is to invest heavily in | :30:21. | :30:25. | |
providing safe and appropriate facilities for refugees in the | :30:26. | :30:29. | |
region so that they can return to Syria in due course. We will | :30:30. | :30:34. | |
continue to advocate that approach and to encourage our EU partners to | :30:35. | :30:40. | |
put more money into that effort. Question eight, Mr Speaker. With | :30:41. | :30:46. | |
permission, Mr Speaker, I shall answer this bastion together with | :30:47. | :30:48. | |
the question nine. My right honourable friend the Minister has | :30:49. | :30:53. | |
had deductive rounds of talks with every European leader, and with the | :30:54. | :30:58. | |
president of the European Council, the European Parliament and the | :30:59. | :31:00. | |
European Commission. The Foreign Secretary, Chancellor and I, also | :31:01. | :31:04. | |
maintain regular contact with our counterparts right across Europe. | :31:05. | :31:11. | |
Can the Minister go further and confirmed that the government will | :31:12. | :31:16. | |
not seek to tear up hard one employment rights as part of this | :31:17. | :31:22. | |
negotiation with the EU? We believe that the flexibility of the opt out | :31:23. | :31:25. | |
that we have from the 48 hour week under the working time direct live | :31:26. | :31:30. | |
is one that is very important to keeping employment in this country | :31:31. | :31:34. | |
high, compared with the tragic levels of unemployment in many other | :31:35. | :31:41. | |
European nations. We shall certainly ensure we will keep this. Will the | :31:42. | :31:46. | |
Minister and accept that there will be no treaty changes secured before | :31:47. | :31:51. | |
the referendum? I set out the position on that in the statement | :31:52. | :31:56. | |
and subsequent answers that I gave a week ago. What he -- is very | :31:57. | :32:04. | |
important is that we secure a package of changes which will be | :32:05. | :32:09. | |
seen by all as irreversible and as legally binding. The government used | :32:10. | :32:14. | |
to complain about Tony Blair giving up the UK rebate back to the | :32:15. | :32:20. | |
European Union, so why did the Prime Minister not ask for a reduction in | :32:21. | :32:24. | |
our membership fee to the EU as part of his letter? Is it that the | :32:25. | :32:29. | |
government is now happy that we gave up the rebate, or is it that the | :32:30. | :32:33. | |
primary step has only asked for the things that he has already had | :32:34. | :32:37. | |
agreed by the EU so he can say the negotiations were a success, on the | :32:38. | :32:40. | |
basis that if you ask for nothing, when you get nothing it will be a | :32:41. | :32:54. | |
success? Mr Speaker, my honourable friend would be right to applaud the | :32:55. | :32:59. | |
Prime Minister's success in getting the first ever reduction in the EU | :33:00. | :33:03. | |
Sakho multi annual budget. I can assure him that what lies ahead will | :33:04. | :33:07. | |
be negotiations that will be tough, that will at times be difficult, | :33:08. | :33:12. | |
which I am confident will end with a better set of relationships between | :33:13. | :33:19. | |
this country and the EU. Surely is it not the case that these very | :33:20. | :33:24. | |
modest proposals which were set out in that letter were the only ones | :33:25. | :33:27. | |
which the government believed that the rest of the EU would agree to, | :33:28. | :33:35. | |
which is why an end to free movement, which is something so many | :33:36. | :33:38. | |
people want to see, is not even going to be discussed? Well we have | :33:39. | :33:45. | |
made it clear that we want to see the freedom of movement for workers | :33:46. | :33:53. | |
be just that, and not a freedom of movement to elect the best welfare | :33:54. | :33:56. | |
system anywhere in Europe. I would say to my honourable friend that we | :33:57. | :34:02. | |
must also take account in our approach to this subject the fact | :34:03. | :34:05. | |
that there are hundreds of thousands of British citizens who themselves | :34:06. | :34:08. | |
are able to work, study and live elsewhere in Europe. Further to the | :34:09. | :34:16. | |
previous question, will the issue of freedom of movement, the principle, | :34:17. | :34:19. | |
not the detail, the principle of freedom of movement, will it be | :34:20. | :34:26. | |
discussed or not? I has to ask the honourable gentleman to go and read | :34:27. | :34:29. | |
again the letter that the Prime Minister sent last week because that | :34:30. | :34:35. | |
makes clear that, while we accept the principle of a freedom of | :34:36. | :34:39. | |
movement for workers, we want to secure changes which ensure that we | :34:40. | :34:46. | |
can reduce the core factors which element of our welfare system exert | :34:47. | :34:50. | |
in adding to migration into this country. Following what my | :34:51. | :34:58. | |
honourable friend said, if the bar is so hah and -- so high and so | :34:59. | :35:05. | |
tough, what is the Prime Minister really going to fight for? What is | :35:06. | :35:11. | |
holding him back? Come on, the bar is so low, this negotiation is just | :35:12. | :35:17. | |
a joke. I perhaps look forward to the day when my honourable friend is | :35:18. | :35:23. | |
able to join me at ministerial meetings in Europe when he can | :35:24. | :35:27. | |
actually see that the task of negotiating is not quite as easy as | :35:28. | :35:33. | |
he has made out in his question. I can't give a running commentary on | :35:34. | :35:37. | |
ongoing negotiations, but I remind my honourable friend that the | :35:38. | :35:43. | |
president commented that the British are task and they would be "really | :35:44. | :35:49. | |
difficult to find an agreement". That indicates we have a real | :35:50. | :35:53. | |
negotiation in front of us. Mr Martin day. Question ten. Thank you, | :35:54. | :36:05. | |
Mr Speaker. Britain has made its support for the president in Yemen | :36:06. | :36:08. | |
clear in deed, and recognised his legitimate request for military | :36:09. | :36:18. | |
assistance which has compounded and Jackie -- a dire humanitarian | :36:19. | :36:24. | |
situation. The Foreign Secretary and I received assurances of compliance. | :36:25. | :36:33. | |
I wonder if he can give a timeline for the proper investigations that | :36:34. | :36:37. | |
were pledged earlier this month into any breaches of humanitarian law in | :36:38. | :36:44. | |
Yemen? Mr Speaker, these investigations must be concluded, | :36:45. | :36:47. | |
they must be looked into, and they will be ongoing. It is a very | :36:48. | :36:51. | |
difficult situation on the ground, unable to have access in many cases | :36:52. | :36:55. | |
to verify what has happened. Progress is being made by the envoy | :36:56. | :37:01. | |
in bringing the parties together in Geneva very shortly, and that is | :37:02. | :37:04. | |
where we need to focus on action getting a ceasefire in place. The | :37:05. | :37:10. | |
humanitarian consequences of the conflict in Yemen after hunt | :37:11. | :37:13. | |
clay-macro heart-rending. Would my honourable friend agree that peace | :37:14. | :37:18. | |
talks leading to a political settlement would be the best way to | :37:19. | :37:23. | |
bring an end to the humanitarian suffering and any breaches of | :37:24. | :37:26. | |
international law in this country? My honourable friend is right. We | :37:27. | :37:30. | |
have discussed some important challenges in the Middle East, but | :37:31. | :37:34. | |
the scale of the situation in Yemen is dire. 20 million people are | :37:35. | :37:42. | |
facing starvation. The lack of water and support that they need. There is | :37:43. | :37:45. | |
no government there, and until we have a ceasefire, the port will not | :37:46. | :37:51. | |
be able to open up to allow the humanitarian support to enter the | :37:52. | :37:57. | |
country. Human rights watch has documented 27 air strikes since | :37:58. | :38:00. | |
March 26 that appear to violate the laws of war in Yemen. On November | :38:01. | :38:06. | |
the 11th, the Foreign Secretary said he supported proper investigations | :38:07. | :38:10. | |
into human rights violations from all sides in the Yemen conflict. Can | :38:11. | :38:14. | |
the Minister explain why the United Kingdom failed to support the Dutch | :38:15. | :38:20. | |
at the last meeting of the UN human rights Council when they call for a | :38:21. | :38:23. | |
credible investigation into these violations? Mr Speaker, this is an | :38:24. | :38:34. | |
important point. I met NGO's and had a band table discussion on this | :38:35. | :38:38. | |
policy. There was an international discussion on this matter. We have | :38:39. | :38:44. | |
been working on encouraging Saudi Arabia and other parties involved in | :38:45. | :38:49. | |
this coalition. There are ten other countries as well. Those cases need | :38:50. | :38:54. | |
to be looked into efficiently and properly by the country itself. | :38:55. | :39:03. | |
Question 11. Since operations by the global coalition began last year, I | :39:04. | :39:07. | |
still has lost more than 30% of the territory it once controlled in | :39:08. | :39:12. | |
Iraq. Most recently, Kurdish forces retook Singel, and slowly but surely | :39:13. | :39:21. | |
Isil is being pushed back, and I am confident that it will be driven out | :39:22. | :39:31. | |
of Iraq in time. As Chair of the all-party group on Islamic phobia, I | :39:32. | :39:35. | |
would like them be formally termed as Daesh. But does my honourable | :39:36. | :39:39. | |
friend agree that cutting supply lines with Syria will hasten its | :39:40. | :39:44. | |
defeat and bring about the restoration of the territory? The | :39:45. | :39:58. | |
retaking of Sinjar is important, but we need to go to the heart and head | :39:59. | :40:02. | |
of the beast in Iraq. Does he regard Turkey as a reliable | :40:03. | :40:08. | |
ally in the battle against Isil, when you consider that not only | :40:09. | :40:14. | |
today they have shot down a Russian jet, who are also trying to fight | :40:15. | :40:20. | |
Isil, they are buying oil from Isil in order to prop them up, they are | :40:21. | :40:24. | |
bombing the Kurds, who are also fighting Isil. This Syrian | :40:25. | :40:30. | |
engagement is an almighty guess. -- mess. | :40:31. | :40:43. | |
Turkey holds the key to a number of questions. And also the migration | :40:44. | :40:56. | |
challenge for Europe. It will be an important partner for this country | :40:57. | :41:02. | |
and the European Union. For, sir. Following my recent discussions in | :41:03. | :41:06. | |
Vienna, an international Syria support group will meet on a regular | :41:07. | :41:11. | |
basis in parallel with Syrian lead discussions with the opposition and | :41:12. | :41:16. | |
the facilitated by the UN to take forward a transition process for | :41:17. | :41:21. | |
that country. The UK will work with our international partners to mean | :41:22. | :41:25. | |
men took -- momentum in this important endeavour. Is it not | :41:26. | :41:30. | |
clearer than ever that Isil pose a threat to our national security. Is | :41:31. | :41:40. | |
it not incumbent upon us in this House to support our allies and that | :41:41. | :41:46. | |
the failure to do so would call complete the world and on their | :41:47. | :41:51. | |
part? It is true that we have military capabilities, the precision | :41:52. | :41:55. | |
weapons available on Tornado aircraft, which would make a | :41:56. | :41:58. | |
difference to the military battle on the ground in Syria. But it is | :41:59. | :42:04. | |
incumbent upon us and we have accepted this challenge to make the | :42:05. | :42:07. | |
case is not just for military intervention to set that case in a | :42:08. | :42:11. | |
broader context of a comprehensive approach to the Syria problem. The | :42:12. | :42:18. | |
Prime Minister has taken upon him himself the responsibility of | :42:19. | :42:20. | |
delivering his comprehensive strategy to the House. It is ever | :42:21. | :42:25. | |
more apparent that unless we deal with the biggest recruitment drive | :42:26. | :42:35. | |
for Daesh by the Assad regime, we will not tackle the cancer that is | :42:36. | :42:41. | |
Daesh. Can he tell us how he will prioritise UK engagement to get a | :42:42. | :42:47. | |
ceasefire and a complex compounds of plan question worked through the | :42:48. | :42:51. | |
international support group for Syria that we have set up. She is | :42:52. | :42:56. | |
right. We will not get a ceasefire, we will not get the opposition | :42:57. | :43:02. | |
groups working with the rump of regime forces against Daesh unless | :43:03. | :43:06. | |
and until they can be clear that Assad is going at a certain point, a | :43:07. | :43:11. | |
clear and defined point, in the transition process. At the moment we | :43:12. | :43:18. | |
do not have agreement across the ISS GE about that point. But that is | :43:19. | :43:23. | |
where we have to go and that is the fundamental thrust of all | :43:24. | :43:26. | |
discussions, around tried to get agreement on a route for an exit by | :43:27. | :43:31. | |
Assad, so that the rest of the pieces of this chicks can follow in | :43:32. | :43:39. | |
to place. -- jigsaw. Given Britain's economic ties with Gulf | :43:40. | :43:42. | |
nations and other states in the Middle East, both I and the Foreign | :43:43. | :43:46. | |
Secretary meet our counterparts to discuss a range of issues including | :43:47. | :43:51. | |
security. In recent weeks, the UK hosted the Egyptian president and I | :43:52. | :44:00. | |
have returned from all man and will be heading to Kuwait, looking at the | :44:01. | :44:10. | |
whip on duty. We face an epidemic of Jihadist violence. Can my honourable | :44:11. | :44:14. | |
friend assure the House that it is close dialogue with our golf friends | :44:15. | :44:18. | |
and partners that they will press on them that funding by some of them of | :44:19. | :44:22. | |
these dangerous organisations must stop? | :44:23. | :44:27. | |
My right honourable friend is right. This is one of the key trait of the | :44:28. | :44:35. | |
strategy is to prevent funding taking place. It is important all | :44:36. | :44:39. | |
countries across the Middle East work hard to prevent this from | :44:40. | :44:45. | |
happening. With the Minister raise in his discussions the current | :44:46. | :44:50. | |
terrorist attacks on Israeli civilians. With 108 Israelis killed | :44:51. | :44:55. | |
or injured by shootings or stabbings in the street in recent weeks and | :44:56. | :44:59. | |
will he condemned the incitement that goes with that, including the | :45:00. | :45:07. | |
statement from the Palestinian... That Jewish body parts should be put | :45:08. | :45:20. | |
out in pieces to remove the thought from their heads. She races are very | :45:21. | :45:25. | |
serious point. In the past few weeks we have seen a reduction in the | :45:26. | :45:28. | |
violence that is taking place in the West Bank. Since the start of this | :45:29. | :45:34. | |
current scale of violence, we have spoken regularly with all sides with | :45:35. | :45:38. | |
the Israeli government and the Palestinian Authority, we need to DS | :45:39. | :45:41. | |
intentions and get all parties back to the table. Number 14, Mr Speaker. | :45:42. | :45:50. | |
I saw for myself in July the desperate plight of the community. | :45:51. | :46:02. | |
Relieving that plight remains a priority. We will press the incoming | :46:03. | :46:06. | |
government to do so. I thank the Minister for his answer. Elections | :46:07. | :46:40. | |
in Burma were a victory for the people of Burma, not withstanding | :46:41. | :46:44. | |
the fact that the Rohingya registered franchise from that | :46:45. | :46:50. | |
election. I could only just conclude by concurring what press -- | :46:51. | :46:55. | |
President Obama said about the Rohingya. He hopes they will be | :46:56. | :47:00. | |
treated fairly and justly in their own country and we believe as he | :47:01. | :47:04. | |
does, they are deserving of the world's protection and support. The | :47:05. | :47:08. | |
incoming government will have a lot on its plate. It will have to expect | :47:09. | :47:13. | |
expectation. We stand ready to help them do that. But the... I have | :47:14. | :47:32. | |
written to them. I am grateful to the Minister for what he said. My | :47:33. | :47:37. | |
priorities remain the struggle against violence in all its forms | :47:38. | :47:43. | |
including a response to the recent despicable attacks in Paris and the | :47:44. | :47:48. | |
Middle East. The containment of Russian actions that threaten the | :47:49. | :47:51. | |
international rules -based system and the renegotiation of Britain's | :47:52. | :47:54. | |
relationship with the European Union. Decisions taken in the | :47:55. | :47:59. | |
strategic defence and offence review will underpin the diplomacy that | :48:00. | :48:03. | |
allows us to make effective progress in all of those areas. Backing a | :48:04. | :48:08. | |
round out its off power with hard power. Tomorrow, Mr Speaker, I will | :48:09. | :48:13. | |
travel to Malta for the Commonwealth heads of government meeting and for | :48:14. | :48:16. | |
the state visit of her Majesty the Queen. Given the changes to the | :48:17. | :48:23. | |
Ministerial Code, is at his view that ministers and the civil and | :48:24. | :48:28. | |
diplomatic services remain bound by the UK boss Mac international treaty | :48:29. | :48:34. | |
obligations? I think the answer to that, Mr Speaker, is yes. How does | :48:35. | :48:44. | |
the strategic defence spending review provide the foreign office | :48:45. | :48:50. | |
with new tools to deal with the situation in Syria, particularly in | :48:51. | :48:55. | |
context of a wider strategy and coordination? Mr Speaker, I have | :48:56. | :49:01. | |
said longer for the publication of the report to the colleagues across | :49:02. | :49:06. | |
government, that the most important reinforcement that we could have | :49:07. | :49:10. | |
diplomacy would be clear statements about this country's determination | :49:11. | :49:20. | |
to back its Armed Forces. We have turned that into specific programmes | :49:21. | :49:24. | |
and plans that will deliver a romp forces the capability that we need | :49:25. | :49:28. | |
to backers of parks with hard power. I have spend a lot of time this | :49:29. | :49:35. | |
weekend hearing about my constituent members about their views on Syria. | :49:36. | :49:42. | |
They do want to know what practical difference Britain can make, how | :49:43. | :49:46. | |
civilians will be protected and whether there is a comprehensive | :49:47. | :49:49. | |
plan to rebuild Syria after was whether proper government in place | :49:50. | :49:54. | |
of Assad to as used chemical weapons on his people? I am glad to hear he | :49:55. | :49:58. | |
is taking the pulse of his constituents. On the last point, as | :49:59. | :50:03. | |
I've said before, the Prime Minister will set out a comprehensive | :50:04. | :50:07. | |
strategy. It is not just about military intervention, it is about | :50:08. | :50:10. | |
how we use that military intervention achieve the political | :50:11. | :50:16. | |
set -- solution that we need. On the military point, yes, the UK does | :50:17. | :50:20. | |
have capabilities that will make a difference. We have the dual mode | :50:21. | :50:25. | |
Brimstone missile carried an attorney dope aircraft which is a | :50:26. | :50:33. | |
precision weapon, unlike any of the other allies have in the coalition. | :50:34. | :50:39. | |
It will insure minimisation of collateral damage and collateral | :50:40. | :50:44. | |
casualties, and that is one of the reasons our allies as sucking me | :50:45. | :50:48. | |
take part in this campaign. There has been another weekend of deadly | :50:49. | :50:52. | |
terror attacks on Israeli citizens, including a brutal stabbing | :50:53. | :50:57. | |
yesterday. Will he condemn these attacks and does he agree that | :50:58. | :51:00. | |
sanctions incitement to commit terror must end? -- sanctioned. My | :51:01. | :51:10. | |
honourable friend is right. We need to get all parties back to the | :51:11. | :51:15. | |
table. Unfortunately it does seem that the planet seamer misaligned at | :51:16. | :51:18. | |
the moment. We need to reconfigure and make sure that all parties come | :51:19. | :51:22. | |
back and prevent the scale of violence from increasing. What steps | :51:23. | :51:29. | |
does the Foreign Secretary taking to ensure that genuine law-abiding | :51:30. | :51:35. | |
refugees leaving Syria are not locked out of the asylum process as | :51:36. | :51:41. | |
a result of border measures being introduced across the EU after the | :51:42. | :51:46. | |
brutal attacks in Paris? Clearly, it is a matter for each member state of | :51:47. | :51:53. | |
the European Union and other European countries to determine | :51:54. | :51:57. | |
their own border controls. The way forward has to be for asylum seekers | :51:58. | :52:03. | |
to be properly assessed and screamed at the first safe country that they | :52:04. | :52:09. | |
go to and for us to tackle the problem in the camps, in the near | :52:10. | :52:13. | |
East, so that people get some assurance of a decent life and | :52:14. | :52:17. | |
opportunities for education for their children. Rather than | :52:18. | :52:22. | |
hazarding these appalling journeys to Europe. With the Foreign | :52:23. | :52:30. | |
Secretary agree with me that in order that we play a constructive | :52:31. | :52:35. | |
role in dealing with Isis and other instabilities in the region, we need | :52:36. | :52:38. | |
a comprehensive strategy towards the Middle East as a whole, not just | :52:39. | :52:44. | |
Syria? Yes, Mr Speaker, I do agree with that. The government is working | :52:45. | :52:51. | |
up a golf strategy, looking at how the UK will engage with this very | :52:52. | :52:56. | |
important region, important for our security and important for our | :52:57. | :52:59. | |
prosperity as well, over the next 5-10 years. Does the Foreign | :53:00. | :53:06. | |
Secretary agree that defeating Daesh abroad provides security at home? I | :53:07. | :53:18. | |
saw headlines yesterday that cast doubt on that. The result unity in | :53:19. | :53:29. | |
the UK hate Daesh. The Sun newspaper published divisions yesterday when | :53:30. | :53:33. | |
we need unity. It is clear to me that the majority of the Muslim | :53:34. | :53:37. | |
population here in the UK and across the world applaud what is going on | :53:38. | :53:41. | |
and are sickened by the fact that it it is being done ostensibly in the | :53:42. | :53:46. | |
name. They are very clear that their religion does not in any way support | :53:47. | :53:50. | |
or authorise the action is being carried out by Daesh and we should | :53:51. | :53:54. | |
help them to reclaim their religion from the terrorists and the | :53:55. | :54:00. | |
extremists. In improving economic times in the UK and sub-Saharan | :54:01. | :54:05. | |
Africa is important. What are the government's objectives at the | :54:06. | :54:12. | |
summit next week? The honourable gentleman is right. Economic | :54:13. | :54:15. | |
development is central to everything that we do. I head of the global | :54:16. | :54:22. | |
African investment Summit, I will be meeting a collection of presidents, | :54:23. | :54:25. | |
prime ministers and foreign ministers at Lancaster House, | :54:26. | :54:30. | |
looking at economic Dev elements, looking at working with those | :54:31. | :54:32. | |
countries to develop their businesses, alongside Ritter 's | :54:33. | :54:37. | |
business, to grow Africa out of poverty. In the course of questions | :54:38. | :54:43. | |
today, the Foreign Secretary has mentioned the need for compounds of | :54:44. | :54:48. | |
strategy. We have heard before about financial sanctions. Update the | :54:49. | :54:52. | |
House on what conversations he has had with counterparts in the US and | :54:53. | :54:59. | |
EU about stopping the supply of cash and financial services to Daesh? Mr | :55:00. | :55:06. | |
Speaker, she is right to say that it is not just on the battlefield, it | :55:07. | :55:09. | |
is about cutting down on the finances as well. We are looking to | :55:10. | :55:12. | |
freeze accounts, huge amounts of work to be done through the | :55:13. | :55:17. | |
Financial Services Authority is in order to identify the flow of funds | :55:18. | :55:21. | |
coming from large donors, individuals. In addition to that, we | :55:22. | :55:26. | |
are looking at the money streams coming into Daesh itself, as it | :55:27. | :55:31. | |
sells antiquities and oils. It is reflected in the fact that the | :55:32. | :55:34. | |
amount of foreign fighters, the amount they get on a monthly debases | :55:35. | :55:39. | |
has been reduced because funds into Daesh are being reduced. Will he | :55:40. | :55:54. | |
talk about what the UK is doing in Burundi. I am grateful for him to | :55:55. | :56:00. | |
raise the situation in the ruined it. It is important there is a | :56:01. | :56:04. | |
regional solution. I have had discussions with the role London | :56:05. | :56:14. | |
government which is in gauging -- Rwandan government. This is a matter | :56:15. | :56:20. | |
of grave concern and I have had a number of frank and open | :56:21. | :56:25. | |
conversations with the Burundi and Foreign Minister and issues an open | :56:26. | :56:30. | |
letter to him as well as a number of the international community. | :56:31. | :56:35. | |
It is estimated that Russian bombings have killed many people, | :56:36. | :56:43. | |
when the Foreign Minister met with the Foreign Minister and he urged | :56:44. | :56:47. | |
him to refocus those air strikes away from the opposition armies who | :56:48. | :56:51. | |
are fighting President Assad's reign of terror, and towards those | :56:52. | :56:55. | |
terrorists who brought down that Russian airliner? Absolutely right, | :56:56. | :56:58. | |
that is what we have been urging the Russians to do. If they want to | :56:59. | :57:02. | |
fight Isil, we will be happy to work with them. But at the moment, what | :57:03. | :57:07. | |
we have seen is that a significant proportion, the majority in fact, of | :57:08. | :57:10. | |
their air strikes have been directed against the moderate opposition | :57:11. | :57:14. | |
fighting Assad. In fairness, since the Russians acknowledged that it | :57:15. | :57:17. | |
almost certainly was terrorist action that brought down that | :57:18. | :57:21. | |
airliner, they have directed a larger proportion of air strikes | :57:22. | :57:26. | |
against Isil held territories. Good my right honourable friend find | :57:27. | :57:29. | |
any further detail on discussions he has had with the Iraqi government | :57:30. | :57:33. | |
about ensuring measures are taken to promote security and enhanced | :57:34. | :57:41. | |
erupt's liberation of areas. Focus needs to be done on supporting | :57:42. | :57:48. | |
Iraqi, but unfortunately many Sunni Muslims in Iraq believe they are not | :57:49. | :57:53. | |
properly represented in Baghdad, so we are working with the Prime | :57:54. | :57:57. | |
Minister to encourage financial services laws and National Guard | :57:58. | :57:59. | |
laws to go through so that they have a place, and are represented | :58:00. | :58:06. | |
properly in Baghdad. I would like to thank the | :58:07. | :58:10. | |
Parliamentary secretary of state for writing to me about my Yemeni | :58:11. | :58:15. | |
constituent. I read the Home Office device he directed me to on this | :58:16. | :58:21. | |
issue. Does he agree it does not inspire confidence that the Home | :58:22. | :58:25. | |
Office managed to miss translate medicines some frontier, and will he | :58:26. | :58:36. | |
meet with me to discuss this? I am grateful that she raises this matter | :58:37. | :58:39. | |
and I would be delighted to meet with her later to discuss it in more | :58:40. | :58:47. | |
detail. The world's attention is rightly on the Middle East and Syria | :58:48. | :58:51. | |
at the moment, but there is an ongoing situation in Ukraine. Has my | :58:52. | :58:56. | |
right honourable friend made any assessment of the situation in | :58:57. | :59:02. | |
Ukraine? We remain concerned about the situation in Ukraine. I was last | :59:03. | :59:06. | |
there in early October this year, when I met the Prime Minister, the | :59:07. | :59:12. | |
Foreign Minister, and other Ukrainian leaders and | :59:13. | :59:16. | |
parliamentarians. The latest situation is that there has been an | :59:17. | :59:19. | |
upsurge of fighting in certain locations around Donetsk. The key | :59:20. | :59:27. | |
thing now is to ensure that the Minsk process is followed through to | :59:28. | :59:31. | |
the end, and all parts of it are completed. We are right not to be | :59:32. | :59:39. | |
part of Shannon and DIY to call for reform, but doesn't the invoking of | :59:40. | :59:43. | |
the EU defence clause remind us why we have to be part of a reformed EU, | :59:44. | :59:51. | |
as well as part of Nato? I think that what France has done by in | :59:52. | :59:55. | |
vogue in that article in the treaty has been to ask other member | :59:56. | :00:01. | |
states, and crucially not the European institutions under that | :00:02. | :00:04. | |
article, to come to its assistant in all possible ways, as they need to | :00:05. | :00:11. | |
react to the terrorist onslaught on Paris. It is important to bear in | :00:12. | :00:17. | |
mind that that treaty article also makes reference to the need for the | :00:18. | :00:22. | |
EU always to coordinate its work with that of Nato. The Foreign | :00:23. | :00:31. | |
Secretary will be aware that the former primary of Canada Stephen | :00:32. | :00:35. | |
Harper was rebuffed in his support for self-determination of the people | :00:36. | :00:39. | |
of the Falkland islands. Will he take the opportunity when Mr Trudeau | :00:40. | :00:42. | |
visits this week to emphasise how grateful we are for the Canadian | :00:43. | :00:47. | |
support for the Falkland Islands, and will be policy remain the same | :00:48. | :00:52. | |
under his premiership? My honourable friend can be reassured that we | :00:53. | :00:58. | |
expect the same from Mr Trudeau on who is on his way to London to meet | :00:59. | :01:02. | |
with our Prime Minister and Her Majesty before travelling on. We | :01:03. | :01:08. | |
expect the same relationships. It is an ancient and potent ratio between | :01:09. | :01:11. | |
ourselves and Canada. The honourable gentleman will be aware that has | :01:12. | :01:16. | |
been an election in Argentina, and we look forward to working with the | :01:17. | :01:23. | |
new government of Argentina who hopefully will not suffer from the | :01:24. | :01:28. | |
bullying and hostility shown by the former government of Argentina to | :01:29. | :01:40. | |
the people of the Falkland Islands. A point of order. Mr Speaker, last | :01:41. | :01:49. | |
week the Prime Minister in PMQ is told the House, and I quote," we | :01:50. | :01:55. | |
have seen an increase of 3800 in the number of neighbourhood officers | :01:56. | :01:59. | |
over the Parliament, and a 31% cut in crime". If I can be brief, on the | :02:00. | :02:06. | |
3800 figure, in 2012, the government lifted the ring fencing on the | :02:07. | :02:10. | |
neighbourhood policing budget, despite warnings from HMRC that it | :02:11. | :02:14. | |
would be the area most at risk from a cut of 25% in the last Parliament. | :02:15. | :02:21. | |
Crucially, the Home Office figures are, as a consequence of the | :02:22. | :02:26. | |
subsequent beta that arises in of officers on response, as having a | :02:27. | :02:32. | |
neighbourhood function. It is not an increase in neighbourhood policing. | :02:33. | :02:36. | |
In truth, the government's own figures show 17,000 police officers | :02:37. | :02:40. | |
gone, 12,000 from the front line, 4500 PCS owes. On the other issues, | :02:41. | :02:49. | |
on the crime figures, I can do no better than quote from what is a | :02:50. | :02:54. | |
government exercise coordinated by the National fraud coordinator in | :02:55. | :02:59. | |
which he says the results of the next crime survey of England and | :03:00. | :03:02. | |
Wales will show a 40% increase in crime. If I can say this in | :03:03. | :03:08. | |
conclusion, Mr Speaker, I am sure you will agree that on matters like | :03:09. | :03:12. | |
police, crime and national security, it is essential that the | :03:13. | :03:16. | |
deliberations of this House are informed by the facts. Can I ask if | :03:17. | :03:21. | |
the MS has indicated to come to this House and put the record straight? | :03:22. | :03:27. | |
Or do, I am grateful to the honourable gentleman for his | :03:28. | :03:29. | |
attempted point of order, and for giving me advance notice of his | :03:30. | :03:34. | |
intention to raise it. I have not received any indication that the | :03:35. | :03:38. | |
Prime Minister proposes to come to the House to correct the record. It | :03:39. | :03:42. | |
is the responsibility of every honourable and right honourable | :03:43. | :03:47. | |
member to ensure the veracity of what he or she says in the event | :03:48. | :03:53. | |
that any member things that he or she has aired, that member has the | :03:54. | :03:59. | |
responsibility to put the record straight. I know the House will | :04:00. | :04:03. | |
understand that disagreement about statistics is part of the currency | :04:04. | :04:08. | |
of political debate in which the honourable gentleman is a practised | :04:09. | :04:16. | |
and dextrous expert. If there is an opposition day along, I have a hunch | :04:17. | :04:21. | |
we will hear from the honourable gentleman. Meanwhile, he has had a | :04:22. | :04:30. | |
bite of the cherry, and I hope he was satisfied with the taste. Point | :04:31. | :04:37. | |
of order, Graham Allen. The Commissioner for children in England | :04:38. | :04:41. | |
published today a report protecting children from harm which outlines | :04:42. | :04:47. | |
the prevalence of child sex abuse in this country, where only one in | :04:48. | :04:51. | |
eight cases of child sex abuse are reported to the authorities. Would | :04:52. | :04:57. | |
it be in order, Mr Speaker, to ask a minister from the Department for | :04:58. | :05:01. | |
Education to respond urgently to this very important matter about | :05:02. | :05:07. | |
prevalence of child sex abuse, hopefully even before education | :05:08. | :05:11. | |
questions on Monday. I am grateful to the honourable gentleman for that | :05:12. | :05:14. | |
point of order. The question about whether a minister comes to the | :05:15. | :05:18. | |
House to make a statement voluntarily is a matter for the | :05:19. | :05:23. | |
Minister. I was conscious of this matter, which was courteously drawn | :05:24. | :05:26. | |
to my attention by the honourable gentleman. My understanding is that | :05:27. | :05:31. | |
the government has just received the report, and has not yet penned a | :05:32. | :05:38. | |
response. I had a sense that the House would benefit from an exchange | :05:39. | :05:44. | |
on the matter at the point at which the government had determined a | :05:45. | :05:48. | |
response. These matters, as the honourable gentleman knows, are kept | :05:49. | :05:52. | |
under review. It would be open to a minister to come to the House before | :05:53. | :05:57. | |
education questions, or even if not, to do so pretty soon. I guess they | :05:58. | :06:01. | |
the honourable gentleman has his back channels by which to keep in | :06:02. | :06:04. | |
touch with what the government's thinking might be about it, and I | :06:05. | :06:08. | |
feel sure that it will not be long before a very thorough exploration | :06:09. | :06:12. | |
of the issues will take place on the floor of the Chamber. | :06:13. | :06:18. | |
Mr Tom brake. Did you have it in your powers to extend Foreign | :06:19. | :06:20. | |
Commonwealth Office questions because I know there are a number of | :06:21. | :06:23. | |
members here who would like to have raised an attack in Pakistan against | :06:24. | :06:28. | |
the anti-Muslim community, and to hear from ministers what they were | :06:29. | :06:33. | |
going to call in the High Commissioner from Pakistan to | :06:34. | :06:36. | |
challenge him, and to say attacking people on the basis of faith is not | :06:37. | :06:40. | |
acceptable. I am grateful to the honourable gentleman for his point | :06:41. | :06:43. | |
of order. He speaks with all the moral force of a former deputy | :06:44. | :06:51. | |
Leader of the House, no less. I note what he says, or what he enquired | :06:52. | :06:55. | |
about correction to my powers. The short answer is that I do not have | :06:56. | :06:58. | |
power to extend Foreign Office questions, or any other Western Time | :06:59. | :07:03. | |
session, although I find myself sometimes doing so anyway as the | :07:04. | :07:07. | |
Treasury bench was quick to point out more or less good-naturedly. The | :07:08. | :07:12. | |
truth of the matter is, we often overrun a bit because I want to hear | :07:13. | :07:16. | |
backbenchers, and the honourable gentleman has cheekily and | :07:17. | :07:20. | |
inappropriately, but I think on this occasion, forgive agree, made his | :07:21. | :07:23. | |
own point in his own way, even though he did not have a right to do | :07:24. | :07:26. | |
so. If there are no further points of | :07:27. | :07:32. | |
order, I think we come now to the ten minute rule motion. Mr Steve | :07:33. | :07:38. | |
McCabe. Mr Speaker, I beg to move that leave | :07:39. | :07:45. | |
be given for me to bring in a bill for the protection of family homes, | :07:46. | :07:48. | |
enforcement and elliptical development. The parts of my | :07:49. | :08:03. | |
constituency work particular the attractive places, full of family | :08:04. | :08:06. | |
homes and small terraces within a series of quite interlocking | :08:07. | :08:14. | |
tree-lined streets. Nowadays, a walk down a number of these roads reveals | :08:15. | :08:19. | |
a very different scene. One is visually assaulted by a series of to | :08:20. | :08:25. | |
let boards of all shapes and sizes, installed at all angles. The | :08:26. | :08:31. | |
streets, pavements and small front gardens are littered with skips, | :08:32. | :08:35. | |
builders rubble, sand and cement, and there is a constant noise at all | :08:36. | :08:41. | |
hours, including weekends, of additional bedrooms being hammered | :08:42. | :08:45. | |
and bolted onto existing dwellings. Once we could expect to see rows of | :08:46. | :08:53. | |
small family homes, we now witness architectural carbuncles jutting at | :08:54. | :08:58. | |
odd angles, extending into adjacent houses, and covering rear gardens | :08:59. | :09:05. | |
with additional bedrooms variously described as games rooms, sheds and | :09:06. | :09:10. | |
saunas. My local authority seems powerless to arrest this | :09:11. | :09:15. | |
destruction. They say enforcement action is costly, and the guidance | :09:16. | :09:22. | |
from central government is unclear. Enforcement action, as you know, is | :09:23. | :09:27. | |
discretionary, and local authorities are required to act purportedly. | :09:28. | :09:34. | |
Birmingham City Council has advised me that there has been no policy on | :09:35. | :09:39. | |
their part to limit the number of planning enforcement cases they | :09:40. | :09:44. | |
pursue, but I note there has been a steady reduction in recent years. To | :09:45. | :09:50. | |
be fair, they have initiated a limited article four direction | :09:51. | :09:54. | |
covering a small part of my constituency, which means that | :09:55. | :09:59. | |
planning permission is needed before a family house can be converted into | :10:00. | :10:09. | |
a house of multiple occupation. What I understand to be a change from a | :10:10. | :10:13. | |
class three to a class for use. But, Mr Speaker, the problems | :10:14. | :10:19. | |
continue, and it is not confined to one area of my constituency, or | :10:20. | :10:23. | |
indeed to one part of Birmingham, but is an issue which affects many | :10:24. | :10:27. | |
towns and cities across the country, as I think is evidence by | :10:28. | :10:32. | |
the broad support for this bill. Examples of these problems include | :10:33. | :10:39. | |
Mr and Mrs White, a retired couple who, I believe, are in the gallery | :10:40. | :10:43. | |
today. The developer who bought the House next door commenced an | :10:44. | :10:48. | |
extension that effectively changed their detached home into a | :10:49. | :10:52. | |
semidetached oddity, as the roof extension expanded to sit on top of | :10:53. | :10:58. | |
their roof, and guttering. The council failed to take enforcement | :10:59. | :11:03. | |
action, despite what commencing without planning approval and being | :11:04. | :11:07. | |
beyond the scope of permitted at element. A survey's report has | :11:08. | :11:12. | |
indicated the damage that has been done to the external wall of their | :11:13. | :11:16. | |
home. This has cost them thousands of pounds in court fees, and as yet, | :11:17. | :11:25. | |
the problem continues. Mrs O'Sullivan complained of a work on | :11:26. | :11:28. | |
her extension, which included digging up the foundations in a shed | :11:29. | :11:34. | |
alleyway had commenced without planning permission. The council | :11:35. | :11:39. | |
agreed to investigate, but advised in advance "in deciding whether it | :11:40. | :11:42. | |
would be expedient to take enforcement action, the council has | :11:43. | :11:46. | |
to take into account whether any breach of planning control an | :11:47. | :11:51. | |
acceptably affects public amenity or the use of land and buildings, which | :11:52. | :11:56. | |
should be protected in the public interest". In this case, the | :11:57. | :12:02. | |
extension was not covered by permitted development delegations | :12:03. | :12:06. | |
and needed planning approval. Nonetheless, the council charged | :12:07. | :12:09. | |
that the risk to Mrs O'Sullivan's property constituted and limited | :12:10. | :12:16. | |
harm. Her loss of life did not justify action. A constituent | :12:17. | :12:20. | |
complained about a landlord's development that exceeded the | :12:21. | :12:24. | |
dimensions on the plan available on the council website. But was told | :12:25. | :12:29. | |
that officers had concluded that it wasn't expedient to take any action. | :12:30. | :12:36. | |
Mr Tempest complained that the Britannia group continued to build | :12:37. | :12:41. | |
extensions designed to convert existing homes into eight bedroom | :12:42. | :12:44. | |
properties, despite planning permission being refused. Elsewhere, | :12:45. | :12:52. | |
cowboy builders demolished, without permission, the chimneys and gas | :12:53. | :12:56. | |
fruits which supported the gas fire of an elderly couple, putting them | :12:57. | :13:03. | |
at serious risk. Gas flutes. Is another property when a constituent | :13:04. | :13:08. | |
complained, a 3 level development overlooking his garden and his | :13:09. | :13:13. | |
neighbours, was completed with disregard to the Article four | :13:14. | :13:18. | |
direction and without permission. I could go on, Mr Speaker, I have case | :13:19. | :13:25. | |
after case of rogue developers and cowboy builders doing as they | :13:26. | :13:30. | |
please. All of these cases are not ordinary people, who have worked and | :13:31. | :13:35. | |
saved for their family home, only to find landlords and developers | :13:36. | :13:40. | |
working hand and glove with cowboy builders, buying up nearby | :13:41. | :13:44. | |
properties and turning their road or street into a series of mini | :13:45. | :13:48. | |
hostels. It's no surprise that the value of their properties begin to | :13:49. | :13:52. | |
plummet to the point where the only one buying is yet another | :13:53. | :13:58. | |
developer. So, the cycle begins again. As I have been investigating | :13:59. | :14:04. | |
this issue, I have become aware of an unintended consequence of the | :14:05. | :14:07. | |
permitted development arrangements. I want to be clear that I have | :14:08. | :14:09. | |
nothing against permitted development. I welcome the | :14:10. | :14:14. | |
government's good intentions in trying to make it easier for people | :14:15. | :14:19. | |
to make small alterations or additions to their home. But, I'm | :14:20. | :14:24. | |
not sure that the government ever intended that this permission would | :14:25. | :14:29. | |
be exploited by ruthless landlords and developers, destroying family | :14:30. | :14:33. | |
homes and bringing misery to thousands of ordinary families and | :14:34. | :14:38. | |
retired couples like The Wyatt Family. The local authority advisers | :14:39. | :14:42. | |
knew that the changes in the law means that many individual owners | :14:43. | :14:47. | |
are unclear about what they can and cannot build. Those that advise the | :14:48. | :14:55. | |
rogue landlords always there on the side of ever greater expansion. My | :14:56. | :15:03. | |
ten minute rule Bill seeks to achieve four things. Firstly it | :15:04. | :15:07. | |
calls for the Department for Communities and Local Government to | :15:08. | :15:11. | |
produce clearer guidance for planning authorities on when | :15:12. | :15:15. | |
enforcement action should be taken. It asks that although called | :15:16. | :15:18. | |
authorities published an enforcement plan so that grey areas are reduced. | :15:19. | :15:25. | |
Secondly, it calls for a simple right of appeal for those who are | :15:26. | :15:30. | |
the victims of this rogue building, where the local authority concludes | :15:31. | :15:33. | |
that it is not expedient to act. Thirdly, it asks that these | :15:34. | :15:39. | |
extension should be independently checked against a building | :15:40. | :15:41. | |
regulations, to make sure that they are safe. At present, there is | :15:42. | :15:47. | |
nothing to stop a rogue developer employing his or her own inspector | :15:48. | :15:52. | |
to sign off the dodgy work done by his or her team of cowboy builders. | :15:53. | :15:57. | |
If we don't act on this, a tragedy will surely follow. Finally, it | :15:58. | :16:02. | |
calls on the government to consider the introduction of fixed penalty | :16:03. | :16:08. | |
fines, to serve as a deterrent against the action of rogue | :16:09. | :16:13. | |
developers. Such penalties to be modelled on those the government | :16:14. | :16:18. | |
already proposes in clause 86 of the Housing and planning Bill, to deal | :16:19. | :16:22. | |
with rogue landlords. This tenement rule Bill calls for a modest number | :16:23. | :16:29. | |
of changes, designed to protect family homes, addressed the | :16:30. | :16:33. | |
enforcement problems and ease the position on permitted development. | :16:34. | :16:38. | |
So that once again it fulfils the aspirations of government ministers | :16:39. | :16:44. | |
without giving a licence to ride roughshod over local people and | :16:45. | :16:49. | |
destroying family homes and local communities I commend it to the | :16:50. | :16:54. | |
house. The question is that the honourable member have leave to | :16:55. | :16:55. | |
bring in the Bill. The ayes have it. Who will prepare | :16:56. | :17:13. | |
the bills? Nigel Evans, Michael fabricant, Diana Johnson, Norman | :17:14. | :17:19. | |
Lamb, Greg Mulholland, Jess Phillips, Alan Whitehead and myself, | :17:20. | :17:22. | |
Mr Speaker. Protection of family homes, | :17:23. | :18:05. | |
enforcement in permitted development Bill. Second reading, what day. 29th | :18:06. | :18:14. | |
of January, 2016. Thank you, order, we come to the main business and to | :18:15. | :18:21. | |
the opposition day debate in the name of the Scottish National party. | :18:22. | :18:25. | |
It may be for the convenience of the house for me to tell it that the | :18:26. | :18:32. | |
amendment has not been selected. To move the motion, I call Mr Brendan | :18:33. | :18:36. | |
O'Hara. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I beg to move | :18:37. | :18:43. | |
that this house believes that Trident should not be renewed. It is | :18:44. | :18:50. | |
a very important type... It should not be renewed. It is a pleasure to | :18:51. | :18:55. | |
move this motion, which stands in my name and those of my honourable and | :18:56. | :18:59. | |
Right Honourable friends from the Scottish National party. Applied | :19:00. | :19:00. | |
country and the Green party. When the SNP were elected in such | :19:01. | :19:10. | |
numbers to this place in May, we were elected on a promise to do | :19:11. | :19:13. | |
three things. Firstly, argued that the number of maximum powers be | :19:14. | :19:21. | |
devolved to the Scottish Parliament. That we would fight tooth and nail | :19:22. | :19:28. | |
against austerity and protect the poorest and vulnerable in our | :19:29. | :19:31. | |
society from the worst excesses of this government and to a -- oppose | :19:32. | :19:39. | |
Trident. The SNP can say that within the first six months of being here, | :19:40. | :19:43. | |
we have done exactly what we promised to do. Of course, there is | :19:44. | :19:48. | |
much more that we still need to do on all of these issues, but no one | :19:49. | :19:52. | |
will be ever able to accuse us of not doing what we said we would do. | :19:53. | :19:57. | |
Therefore, Mr Speaker, I beg to move the motion that Trident should not | :19:58. | :20:01. | |
be renewed. In recent months, tried it and the issue of the UK's | :20:02. | :20:07. | |
nuclear... I will make some progress if the lady will give me... Mr | :20:08. | :20:12. | |
Speaker, no one can deny that Trident and the issue of the nuclear | :20:13. | :20:15. | |
deterrent has not been in the forefront of the public debate for | :20:16. | :20:20. | |
many, many years. Not only because this is the 70th anniversary of the | :20:21. | :20:23. | |
dropping of the atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki another very | :20:24. | :20:27. | |
soon, the United Kingdom will decide whether or not to commit to spend | :20:28. | :20:34. | |
167,000 million pounds over the lifetime of the Trident programme. | :20:35. | :20:39. | |
We had high hopes that we would not be a lone voice. When the rank of | :20:40. | :20:46. | |
the British Labour Party elected the Right Honourable member for | :20:47. | :20:50. | |
Islington and about unilateralist, we on this bench is felt there was a | :20:51. | :20:54. | |
certain hope of a serious opposition to Trident. The mere thought of such | :20:55. | :21:01. | |
a thing happening caused palpitations in the red and blue | :21:02. | :21:04. | |
shades of the British establishment. But I do genuinely wish the Right | :21:05. | :21:10. | |
Honourable member for Islington well in continuing his robust opposition | :21:11. | :21:14. | |
to Trident. I would say to him and his members that the Scottish | :21:15. | :21:18. | |
National Party... Yes? While the honourable gentleman is | :21:19. | :21:27. | |
outlining the reasons for his motion in his beach, I wonder if you could | :21:28. | :21:34. | |
explain to me the SNP's apparent incoherence. -- in his speech. | :21:35. | :21:39. | |
During the Scottish referendum campaign, they were pledging to | :21:40. | :21:42. | |
scrap Trident on one hand, but saying that they would seek to join | :21:43. | :21:47. | |
Nato, a nuclear Alliance, on the other hand. | :21:48. | :21:54. | |
The honourable lady will... Forgive me if I don't accept for a moment | :21:55. | :22:00. | |
her definition of incoherence. LAUGHTER | :22:01. | :22:04. | |
To be incoherent, you would have to do suggest that Germany, Spain, so | :22:05. | :22:12. | |
many other members of Nato are equally incoherent... Please, | :22:13. | :22:19. | |
gentlemen, let me finish the answer. The last two general secretaries of | :22:20. | :22:25. | |
Nato have been Danish and Norwegian. They have exactly the same position | :22:26. | :22:26. | |
that we currently advocate. I realise you are very keen to get | :22:27. | :22:35. | |
in on this, so keen you left a message on my door this morning. | :22:36. | :22:39. | |
LAUGHTER I am not keen to get into this | :22:40. | :22:43. | |
debate and I didn't leave a message on anybody's. ! Mr Brendan O'Hara. | :22:44. | :22:49. | |
My apologies, the honourable member left a note on my door this morning. | :22:50. | :22:56. | |
Make a speech! I will come to you. Was it a last note? The honourable | :22:57. | :23:05. | |
gentlemen... LAUGHTER That is a matter of debate! The | :23:06. | :23:10. | |
honourable gentleman has the floor, when it is clear that he is not | :23:11. | :23:15. | |
taking an intervention, he must not be hollered at from a sedentary | :23:16. | :23:18. | |
position from either side of the house, he is free to develop his | :23:19. | :23:25. | |
case. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I do wish the Right Honourable member for | :23:26. | :23:28. | |
Islington well. I would say to his benches that being against Trident | :23:29. | :23:39. | |
can actually be a vote winner. The SNP have returned in such great | :23:40. | :23:43. | |
numbers on an explicitly anti-Trident platform. In recent | :23:44. | :23:48. | |
weeks, the Scottish Parliament, yet again, has reaffirmed its half-life | :23:49. | :23:51. | |
and other farming opposition to Trident. The Scottish Government, | :23:52. | :23:57. | |
the Scottish TUC, churches and great swathes of civic society has set its | :23:58. | :24:00. | |
face against Trident -- other government opposition. Will my | :24:01. | :24:05. | |
honourable friend take the opportunity to remind us how the | :24:06. | :24:08. | |
different political parties in the Scottish parliament voted on | :24:09. | :24:12. | |
Trident? And remind us what decision was reached at the annual conference | :24:13. | :24:17. | |
of the Scottish Labour Party? Does he not think it strange that the | :24:18. | :24:21. | |
single member of Parliament for the Scottish Labour Party whose party | :24:22. | :24:24. | |
opposes Trident, he opposes Trident, isn't even in the chamber | :24:25. | :24:29. | |
for this debate? I thank my right honourable friend for that | :24:30. | :24:35. | |
intervention. As he correctly points out, there is now an established | :24:36. | :24:39. | |
consensus among the Scottish political parties against Trident. | :24:40. | :24:42. | |
The Scottish National Party, the Scottish Green party, Scottish | :24:43. | :24:48. | |
Socialists and he is correct... Two seconds, the Scottish Labour Party | :24:49. | :24:54. | |
are all opposed to Trident. Yet, we have a government in Westminster | :24:55. | :24:59. | |
with just one elected member of Parliament representing a party who | :25:00. | :25:03. | |
failed to achieve even 15% of the vote in Scotland. Yet, they insist, | :25:04. | :25:09. | |
they insist, that they have the right to foist on Scotland, weapons | :25:10. | :25:15. | |
of mass destruction, which Scotland has said we do not want. It doesn't | :25:16. | :25:22. | |
suit you. Does he not find it strange the contrast between the | :25:23. | :25:25. | |
unified voice from Scotland and the confusion from the Wales Labour | :25:26. | :25:31. | |
Party? Quite apart from the First Minister, who wants to move it down | :25:32. | :25:33. | |
to west Wales! I agree with my honourable friend. | :25:34. | :25:41. | |
It is interesting that the number of times I have been asked why the | :25:42. | :25:47. | |
media and the press, are you doing this simply to embarrass the Labour | :25:48. | :25:51. | |
Party? My reply would be... The Labour Party need to embarrass the | :25:52. | :25:53. | |
Labour Party? My reply would be... The Labour Party to counter this | :25:54. | :25:55. | |
issue. I have always argued that there is | :25:56. | :26:06. | |
no moral common economic and no military case for Trident, unless | :26:07. | :26:11. | |
the Lee macro and let's be absolutely clear that there is no | :26:12. | :26:14. | |
moral case for any state possessing weapons of mass destruction. | :26:15. | :26:19. | |
Possessing the ability to destroy the world several times over and | :26:20. | :26:22. | |
everything in it is not something to be proud of, and indeed it is | :26:23. | :26:29. | |
something I believe to be deeply shaming, and there is no article of | :26:30. | :26:33. | |
faith that has ever said it is okayed to hold the threat of | :26:34. | :26:36. | |
annihilation over your neighbour and disguise it as peacekeeping. With | :26:37. | :26:41. | |
the honourable gentleman not agree that the possession of nuclear | :26:42. | :26:45. | |
weapons sirs as a deterrent which has worked well for many years, and | :26:46. | :26:48. | |
that if one nation unilaterally disarm is, as Ukraine did in 1994, | :26:49. | :26:54. | |
in reliance on a treaty with Russia that they would not invade, and that | :26:55. | :26:59. | |
was broken and Ukraine are now suffering the absence of those | :27:00. | :27:05. | |
weapons. I will pick up those points later on. I think the idea of a | :27:06. | :27:09. | |
deterrent is important and it is something I will address. Not only | :27:10. | :27:16. | |
is Trident morally questionable, it is economic madness. In 2006 when | :27:17. | :27:20. | |
the success of the programme was discussed, the likely cost of | :27:21. | :27:24. | |
building new submarines was put at up to ?20 billion. There was on top | :27:25. | :27:37. | |
of that a ?10 billion contingency. ?41 billion set aside to build | :27:38. | :27:42. | |
submarines. That has at least doubled in the last decade, and I | :27:43. | :27:45. | |
shudder to think what it will be in the next decade. Indeed, based on | :27:46. | :27:50. | |
the government's own figures, and figures coming from the government | :27:51. | :27:54. | |
benches, the lifetime cost of Trident will be in the region of | :27:55. | :28:02. | |
?167,000 -- 167,000 million pounds. That is real money, and there was no | :28:03. | :28:06. | |
escaping the fact, and it should embarrass the Labour Party, that | :28:07. | :28:09. | |
that money has been made on the banks of the poor and the most | :28:10. | :28:14. | |
vulnerable in our society. On the day that the Chancellor appeared at | :28:15. | :28:20. | |
Faslane, appearing out of nowhere like the cartoon character Mr Benn, | :28:21. | :28:30. | |
to announce ?500 million worth of extensions to jetties, on the same | :28:31. | :28:34. | |
day the United Nations announced that they would be investigating as | :28:35. | :28:38. | |
to whether this government's policy on cutting welfare support to the | :28:39. | :28:42. | |
disabled was in violation of their human rights. I know that the right | :28:43. | :28:50. | |
honourable member who represents Barrow, I do believe that he is | :28:51. | :28:55. | |
extremely anxious to get involved, but I would say that as the member | :28:56. | :29:03. | |
of Parliament for Argyle? As the member for Argyll and Bute, I | :29:04. | :29:09. | |
represent Faslane, I live roughly six miles from the base, and for | :29:10. | :29:13. | |
decades, my constituents have been told that their jobs and their | :29:14. | :29:19. | |
prosperity totally depends on it. I will give way. Does my honourable | :29:20. | :29:27. | |
friend, who is in a neighbouring constituency of mine, have the same | :29:28. | :29:33. | |
grave concerns over the alarming number of nuclear safety incidents | :29:34. | :29:35. | |
that have been reported at Faslane naval base? There have been a 54% | :29:36. | :29:42. | |
increase in the mothers of incidents reported in 2013-14, compare to | :29:43. | :29:50. | |
2012-13. These incidents threaten the safety, not only of the workers | :29:51. | :29:56. | |
of Faslane nuclear base in their constituency, but the majority of | :29:57. | :30:02. | |
whom live in my constituency, but the communities who also surround | :30:03. | :30:08. | |
it? Before we proceed, can I remind the House that interventions should | :30:09. | :30:15. | |
be brief. It is not proper for a member to read out what amounts to a | :30:16. | :30:23. | |
mini speech which purports to be an intervention. The intervention must | :30:24. | :30:29. | |
be brief. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I do agree with my honourable friend, | :30:30. | :30:33. | |
that safety is paramount. Indeed, it was something I brought up last week | :30:34. | :30:38. | |
at the Westminster Hall debate when there was huge safety concerns, | :30:39. | :30:44. | |
among workers at Faslane about cuts that have been made. I would hope | :30:45. | :30:48. | |
that my honourable friends would realise that my election in Argyll | :30:49. | :30:55. | |
and Bute would suggest you do not have too put all your eggs in one | :30:56. | :30:59. | |
basket, but what I would say, and let me be absolutely clear that in | :31:00. | :31:05. | |
saying no to Trident we are not saying no to Faslane, far from it. | :31:06. | :31:13. | |
The SNP has never and will never consider closing the Faslane base. | :31:14. | :31:27. | |
Hopefully soon not rather than later as an independent Scotland, Faslane | :31:28. | :31:32. | |
will have a bright, non-nuclear future as a conventional naval | :31:33. | :31:37. | |
base. Faslane is a fantastic facility and its proximity to the | :31:38. | :31:41. | |
north Atlantic means that future prospects are not dependent on | :31:42. | :31:43. | |
having nuclear submarines based there. Given the outrageous | :31:44. | :31:51. | |
chortling from both sides of the House on this, it is clear that the | :31:52. | :31:56. | |
only way that the UK is established and parties will support Faslane is | :31:57. | :32:00. | |
that if there are nuclear weapon is there. What a shocking proposal that | :32:01. | :32:06. | |
is. I absolutely agree, and what we have seen today is any pretence that | :32:07. | :32:14. | |
the Labour Party will somehow take a radical position on nuclear | :32:15. | :32:23. | |
weapons... I will give way. I thank the honourable gentleman for giving | :32:24. | :32:26. | |
way, and some embers of the Labour Party do support his view. -- | :32:27. | :32:41. | |
members. I am one of those. I thank my honourable friend for his support | :32:42. | :32:45. | |
and it is very much appreciated. I will make progress and I will come | :32:46. | :32:50. | |
back to the honourable gentleman. I am grateful to the honourable | :32:51. | :32:53. | |
gentleman for giving way. Just on the point the honourable gentleman | :32:54. | :32:59. | |
said that without nuclear submarines at Faslane, and with the separation | :33:00. | :33:03. | |
of Scotland from the rest of the UK, that he would seek to have a naval | :33:04. | :33:07. | |
base with ships at Faslane, as I understood it. He had also said that | :33:08. | :33:12. | |
he considered it a waste of money, building new hardware for the Navy | :33:13. | :33:16. | |
because it could be better spent on welfare. Those points do not seem to | :33:17. | :33:23. | |
marry up. I understand what you are saying, but we have at no point said | :33:24. | :33:29. | |
we will double spend this money. Money we save from not renewing | :33:30. | :33:33. | |
Trident, would be in the region of ?15 billion over a lifetime of | :33:34. | :33:39. | |
Trident, money that could be invested in conventional defences, | :33:40. | :33:42. | |
and in turning Faslane from a nuclear submarine port to a state of | :33:43. | :33:48. | |
the art naval base and a conventional naval base. I will make | :33:49. | :33:56. | |
progress. I believe I have been very generous. I have always argued that | :33:57. | :34:02. | |
there is no military case for Trident. Quite simply because | :34:03. | :34:07. | |
Trident is not a military weapon. Trident is a political weapon. It is | :34:08. | :34:12. | |
a political weapon which can never, and will never, be used. And yet it | :34:13. | :34:19. | |
is set to consume anything between 30 and 50% of the UK defence | :34:20. | :34:27. | |
procurement budget. I will give way. I am grateful, but does he not | :34:28. | :34:31. | |
understand that it is being used every day? In every moment that we | :34:32. | :34:39. | |
have continuous at sea deterrence, it is being used as a deterrent. The | :34:40. | :34:43. | |
fact that it is never fired in anger is actually a symbol of its success. | :34:44. | :34:51. | |
It will come as no surprise to the honourable gentleman, I do not agree | :34:52. | :34:56. | |
at all, and I move on to the point of deterrence. I will make progress. | :34:57. | :35:01. | |
I think I have been very generous open till now. Let's be honest, the | :35:02. | :35:11. | |
money that is being spent on Trident is being put into keeping Britain at | :35:12. | :35:16. | |
the top table of the United Nations Security Council. Money that should | :35:17. | :35:20. | |
be doing good, whether peacekeeping, reacting to emergencies like Ebola | :35:21. | :35:26. | |
or the humanitarian crisis unfolding in front of us in the Middle East | :35:27. | :35:31. | |
and North Africa, I believe has been sacrificed on eight elective | :35:32. | :35:35. | |
military and political ego trip that has more to do with status than it | :35:36. | :35:43. | |
does defence. I will make some progress, I will come back to you. | :35:44. | :35:48. | |
Don't take my word for it, the evidence at the Defence Select | :35:49. | :35:52. | |
Committee last week, General Sir Richard Sheriff, referring to money | :35:53. | :35:56. | |
for Trident said "we either go down the line of nuclear capability at | :35:57. | :36:00. | |
the expense of conventional capability, or conventional | :36:01. | :36:03. | |
capability at the expense of nuclear". It seems to be that sort | :36:04. | :36:09. | |
of zero sum game. The problem with Trident is it puts pressure on the | :36:10. | :36:13. | |
rest of the defence budget to the detriment, I believe, of the overall | :36:14. | :36:17. | |
security. Even Tony Blair am not someone I would seek to quote often | :36:18. | :36:22. | |
in This Place, Tony Blair in his memoirs, when talking about Trident | :36:23. | :36:29. | |
said, " the expense is huge, and the utility nonexistent in terms of | :36:30. | :36:33. | |
military use, but he decided to go down the road of Trident renewal | :36:34. | :36:39. | |
because it would be too big a downgrading of our status as a | :36:40. | :36:43. | |
nation". I will give way. | :36:44. | :36:48. | |
Would he agree that nuclear weapons actually are making us less safe, | :36:49. | :36:52. | |
not more safe, because they get a signal to the rest of the world to | :36:53. | :36:55. | |
said that the only way you can guarantee your security is by | :36:56. | :36:58. | |
acquiring nuclear weapons, so it is not countering it? I would | :36:59. | :37:05. | |
absolutely agree. But Tony Blair summed it up. The UK's obsession | :37:06. | :37:09. | |
with having an independent nuclear deterrent is little more than a form | :37:10. | :37:14. | |
of Imperial power indulging in a desperate search for a better | :37:15. | :37:20. | |
yesterday. Possessing Trident is not about defence. It is about the | :37:21. | :37:25. | |
illusion of continuing upon past glories, regardless of cost. | :37:26. | :37:29. | |
Regardless of the fact that we cannot afford it, pride it seems | :37:30. | :37:34. | |
will not let us back down. We would rather cut benefits from the | :37:35. | :37:38. | |
disabled, we would rather take tax credit away from the working poor, | :37:39. | :37:42. | |
as long as the bottomless pit of Trident is fed. Would you give way? | :37:43. | :37:50. | |
I will. I am grateful to stop I have written to the former First Minister | :37:51. | :37:54. | |
about these issues are a number of occasions and not yet received | :37:55. | :37:57. | |
answers. In the event of decommissioning the nuclear fleet at | :37:58. | :38:03. | |
Faslane, where in Scotland would those nuclear materials be disposed | :38:04. | :38:14. | |
of? Scotland is absolutely set to take its responsibility. Scotland | :38:15. | :38:17. | |
act we have responsibilities to do it, and Scotland will do so, but to | :38:18. | :38:24. | |
use that as an argument to rearm, is frankly ridiculous. I will make | :38:25. | :38:33. | |
progress. Possession of top end military capabilities, without the | :38:34. | :38:38. | |
ability to exercise them effectively, is known in strategic | :38:39. | :38:45. | |
powers as a hollow force. To put it in a more colloquial way, we are | :38:46. | :38:51. | |
acting as having a fur coat and no knickers. Trident is a military and | :38:52. | :38:58. | |
political ego trip that is being paid for on the backs of the poor. | :38:59. | :39:05. | |
The UK independent nuclear deterrent is not, I believe, all that | :39:06. | :39:09. | |
independent. I refer you to the Defence Select Committee report on | :39:10. | :39:16. | |
the 30th of June 2006 which said" in theory, the British premise that | :39:17. | :39:19. | |
could give the order to fire Trident without getting prior approval from | :39:20. | :39:25. | |
the White House. The UK can maintain a facade of being a global military | :39:26. | :39:29. | |
power. In practice, it is difficult conceive of any situation in which a | :39:30. | :39:33. | |
Prime Minister would fire Trident without prior US approval. In | :39:34. | :39:38. | |
reality, it would be an American US commander in chief who will | :39:39. | :39:45. | |
ultimately decide, and in 18 months' time, that commander in chief could | :39:46. | :39:50. | |
be president Donald Trump. Does anyone seriously think that Trident | :39:51. | :39:57. | |
makes the world a safer place? I have already given way once to the | :39:58. | :40:04. | |
honourable gentleman. Everyone accepts that the world has never | :40:05. | :40:10. | |
been in a more uncertain place. The world is changing, and the threats | :40:11. | :40:14. | |
are changing. They are most certainly not as they were 30 or 40 | :40:15. | :40:20. | |
years ago. Many military strategists recognise that these changes has to | :40:21. | :40:26. | |
be prepared for according. They have identified potent threats, mass | :40:27. | :40:31. | |
migration into mega cities, by the 2040s they reckon that 70% of the | :40:32. | :40:35. | |
world will be open eyes. Great movement of people because of | :40:36. | :40:43. | |
climate change and the search for natural resources such as water and | :40:44. | :40:45. | |
sources of energy, are going to cause huge global problems. We are | :40:46. | :40:51. | |
increasingly engaged in an ideological war with terrorism, | :40:52. | :40:58. | |
hybrid warfare and cyber attacks. Indeed, the Prime Minister himself | :40:59. | :41:03. | |
said that Daesh were and existential threat to the UK, and we have to | :41:04. | :41:09. | |
assume sadly that, after the evil of Daesh is destroyed, there will be | :41:10. | :41:12. | |
other ideological driven groups who will emerge. Looking ahead in many | :41:13. | :41:18. | |
ways, this traditional state will not be the main enemy. So, why, | :41:19. | :41:22. | |
given the radical changes that are happening in the world, it is the | :41:23. | :41:27. | |
UK's response exactly as it was 30 or 40 years ago question not having | :41:28. | :41:32. | |
nuclear armed submarines at the 24 hours a day, seven days a week 365 | :41:33. | :41:37. | |
days a year, armed with nuclear missiles are pointed and designed to | :41:38. | :41:42. | |
arbitrate European cities. I will give way. Are a case we have heard | :41:43. | :41:54. | |
many times. How does he addressed the single inescapable fact that the | :41:55. | :41:57. | |
only nation that has ever had nuclear weapons used against it, | :41:58. | :42:01. | |
didn't have any? That was, namely, Japan. Is that the intellectual Tory | :42:02. | :42:10. | |
argument? I'm not entirely sure what the gentleman is driving at. It | :42:11. | :42:18. | |
wasn't exactly worth waiting for. It makes no military sense at all... I | :42:19. | :42:23. | |
return to the view that Trident is not a military weapon, it is purely | :42:24. | :42:27. | |
a political weapon. For the last time, I will give way to the | :42:28. | :42:31. | |
honourable lady. I thank the honourable member for giving way. He | :42:32. | :42:34. | |
is clearly satisfied that the Russian state is no longer a threat | :42:35. | :42:38. | |
to Western security and UK security. Perhaps he can give us the | :42:39. | :42:45. | |
reasons why that is the case, why he is so confident that Russia is no | :42:46. | :42:48. | |
longer a threat to the security in the UK? I would have to say to the | :42:49. | :42:55. | |
honourable lady that what she is advocating is that every country in | :42:56. | :43:00. | |
the world arms itself to the teeth. Germany and Poland and Norway and | :43:01. | :43:05. | |
Sweden, is that what the honourable lady is honestly are doing? That if | :43:06. | :43:10. | |
you believe that Russia is going to come speeding across the plains and | :43:11. | :43:15. | |
invade the United Kingdom, is that what you honestly advocating? In | :43:16. | :43:19. | |
that case, if you want to argue that every country in the world should | :43:20. | :43:23. | |
possess its own nuclear weapons, I would advise you take it to the | :43:24. | :43:27. | |
Labour Party. From the sound of it, you may be able to get support. Mr | :43:28. | :43:37. | |
Speaker, as I mentioned at the speech, a forlorn hope indeed, but | :43:38. | :43:40. | |
there was a genuine hope that perhaps with the election of the | :43:41. | :43:42. | |
Right Honourable member for Islington they would at least be a | :43:43. | :43:45. | |
debate on Trident in this place. I fear that the leader has not managed | :43:46. | :43:50. | |
to take his party with him at the attendance, paltry attendance, | :43:51. | :43:54. | |
today, from the Labour Party would suggest exactly that. The Labour | :43:55. | :43:59. | |
Party's refusal to debate Trident will disappoint many among their own | :44:00. | :44:03. | |
rank and file. I've no doubt that when, as he did yesterday, the Prime | :44:04. | :44:10. | |
Minister promised a vote on the main decision, I have no doubt I will see | :44:11. | :44:13. | |
the Right Honourable member for Islington voting with the SNP | :44:14. | :44:17. | |
against Trident renewal. But, I fear that he will have to have swum | :44:18. | :44:24. | |
through a tide of his own MPs going through the lobbies with the | :44:25. | :44:27. | |
Conservative Party again to support Trident renewal at the cost of | :44:28. | :44:35. | |
167,000 million pounds. You love to talk about being a multilateralist | :44:36. | :44:42. | |
party. The Labour Party cannot hide behind the figleaf of | :44:43. | :44:44. | |
multilateralism while committing the United Kingdom to this massive | :44:45. | :44:53. | |
increase in nuclear weapons free. It is an absolute figleaf. I'm afraid | :44:54. | :44:56. | |
the Labour Party, if they decide to support the government in renewing | :44:57. | :45:02. | |
the Trident missile programme, I believe they are as morally bankrupt | :45:03. | :45:08. | |
as the Conservative Party. If Trident ever was an answer to a 20th | :45:09. | :45:15. | |
century problem, not to the problems we face in the 21st-century. Trident | :45:16. | :45:20. | |
is purely political. It is not a military weapon. It does not make us | :45:21. | :45:25. | |
any more safe than nations who do not possess weapons of mass | :45:26. | :45:30. | |
destruction. I am just about to wind up. Trident is all about the UK | :45:31. | :45:36. | |
projecting power. And a desperate attempt to cling on to the remnants | :45:37. | :45:42. | |
of a fading imperialist past. It is paid for on the backs of the poor. | :45:43. | :45:46. | |
Trident is diminishing the rest of the UK's capability. Therefore, Mr | :45:47. | :45:52. | |
Speaker, there is no moral, economic or military case for renewing | :45:53. | :45:53. | |
Trident. The question is as on the order | :45:54. | :46:02. | |
paper, called the Secretary of State for Defence, secretary Michael | :46:03. | :46:03. | |
Fallon. Thank you, Mr Speaker. On these | :46:04. | :46:11. | |
benches, we welcome the opportunity to discuss our nuclear deterrent. | :46:12. | :46:16. | |
Let me thank the honourable member for Argyll and Bute for taking this | :46:17. | :46:20. | |
motion today. In his statement yesterday, the Prime Minister set | :46:21. | :46:24. | |
out the growing scale, diversity and complex city of the threats that we | :46:25. | :46:29. | |
face. And to tackle those threats, we have to have an array of weapons. | :46:30. | :46:33. | |
Up to and including a nuclear deterrent. It is worrying that in a | :46:34. | :46:40. | |
more dangerous world that the cross-party consensus we used to | :46:41. | :46:44. | |
enjoy on our deterrent does now seem to be weakening. I should remind | :46:45. | :46:50. | |
members of it was Labour ministers, Ashley and Bevan, who, in the 1940s, | :46:51. | :46:56. | |
argued for a nuclear deterrent with a union Jack on the top of it. | :46:57. | :47:02. | |
Today, we find a leader of the Labour Party opposing his party's | :47:03. | :47:06. | |
official policy. He wants to scrap Trident. He said he is no longer | :47:07. | :47:14. | |
prepared to use it. What is perhaps equally worrying is the | :47:15. | :47:17. | |
nonattendance, now, the shadow Secretary of State. Because, she has | :47:18. | :47:21. | |
been admirably clear in opposing her leader. While the -- agreeing to | :47:22. | :47:29. | |
lead a review of the policy. I can understand her anger at the decision | :47:30. | :47:33. | |
to appoint as co-chair of that review, Mr Ken Livingstone. | :47:34. | :47:39. | |
Somebody, of course, who doesn't want to review Trident, he wants to | :47:40. | :47:44. | |
abolish Trident. Indeed, he declared London to be a nuclear free zone. | :47:45. | :47:49. | |
This is like pointing an arsonist as the code chief fire officer. -- | :47:50. | :47:55. | |
joint chief. Our international allies will look on with dismay at | :47:56. | :48:02. | |
this shambles opposite. Which, I have to say this, can only be of | :48:03. | :48:07. | |
comfort to adverse threes. Let me appeal, again, today -- comfort to | :48:08. | :48:12. | |
those opposed to us. I want to ask the Labour party who proudly wanted | :48:13. | :48:22. | |
to renew the consensus between us. To put aside, the Chancellor said on | :48:23. | :48:26. | |
television on Sunday, party politics in the national interest and join us | :48:27. | :48:30. | |
in remaking the case for the deterrent. Of course. I thank the | :48:31. | :48:37. | |
Secretary of State for giving way. I can give him the pledge that Labour | :48:38. | :48:40. | |
MPs will help him get through the programme that we started in | :48:41. | :48:44. | |
government. Will he make a pledge in the house, today, that he will base | :48:45. | :48:48. | |
the main gate decision on the operational contracting need of this | :48:49. | :48:54. | |
programme, and not on political considerations? I'm very happy to | :48:55. | :49:00. | |
give him that particular assurance. And I look forward to debating in | :49:01. | :49:06. | |
this house and deciding on the principle of renewing the four | :49:07. | :49:10. | |
submarines, not the Trident sub, but four submarines, a decision this | :49:11. | :49:13. | |
Parliament must take next year. Of course. Can the honourable gentleman | :49:14. | :49:19. | |
tell us when we will actually have a debate on Trident when we actually | :49:20. | :49:25. | |
take a decision? That decision of course had to await the publication | :49:26. | :49:28. | |
of the strategic defence and security review yesterday. I hope we | :49:29. | :49:36. | |
can take that decision in 2016. Then we have to get on and start building | :49:37. | :49:42. | |
the successor submarines, as I shall explain. Successive governments, | :49:43. | :49:44. | |
Labour and Conservative, have charged that a minimal credible | :49:45. | :49:52. | |
nuclear deterrent is credible to our national security. That a nuclear | :49:53. | :49:57. | |
deterrent is the only assured way of deterring nuclear threats and | :49:58. | :50:00. | |
blackmail, by nuclear states. For more than 60 years, our nuclear | :50:01. | :50:06. | |
deterrent has done that job. And let us, whatever side of the argument we | :50:07. | :50:10. | |
are on, paid tribute to the crews of HMS Vanguard, vengeance, victorious | :50:11. | :50:17. | |
and vigilant. To their families and all those at Faslane who ensure and | :50:18. | :50:22. | |
has ensured that one of those boats is on patrol, 24 hours a day, 365 | :50:23. | :50:32. | |
days a year. Of course. Thank you for giving way. I also thank him for | :50:33. | :50:38. | |
his tribute, as I stand here as a wife of a sub Mariner, serving on | :50:39. | :50:40. | |
HMS victorious. However, the crews are doing a job, | :50:41. | :50:50. | |
they are doing a service. They are serving, as they are sent to do. | :50:51. | :50:55. | |
They are there, defending our democracy. The Secretary of State | :50:56. | :51:02. | |
has to realise the crews are doing their job. Not all of them will | :51:03. | :51:03. | |
agree with his views on Trident. I accept what the honourable lady | :51:04. | :51:12. | |
says. Of course, if she is married to one of them, she will know better | :51:13. | :51:16. | |
than anybody in this house. But I do say I have met the crews of some of | :51:17. | :51:21. | |
the submarines. I have yet to meet a sub Mariner who does not have faith | :51:22. | :51:26. | |
in the job he is doing, but there we are. Let me be clear what the | :51:27. | :51:31. | |
decision that the honourable member asked me about. The decision we have | :51:32. | :51:37. | |
to take next year as a parliament is not to replace the Trident missile | :51:38. | :51:43. | |
or renew warheads, it is to replace the Vanguard submarines. That needs | :51:44. | :51:48. | |
to be replaced by the early 20 30s. Of course. | :51:49. | :51:53. | |
I would like to thank my right honourable friend. He has mentioned | :51:54. | :51:59. | |
fast lane. Can he actually tell me what the future of Faslane might be | :52:00. | :52:09. | |
without nuclear submarines and the largest site in Scotland would be | :52:10. | :52:12. | |
lost if nuclear submarines were banned. | :52:13. | :52:16. | |
There would be a significant implication. For Faslane. If the | :52:17. | :52:24. | |
nuclear deterrent was no longer there. It was pointed out yesterday | :52:25. | :52:30. | |
by GMB Scotland, who said the commitment in the strategic review | :52:31. | :52:34. | |
for multilateralism and the successor programme going ahead is | :52:35. | :52:38. | |
welcome, as it is crucial to jobs in Scotland. That is what GMB Scotland | :52:39. | :52:44. | |
said. I want to make progress. I have given way four times already | :52:45. | :52:50. | |
but I will give way again. This governments was elected on a | :52:51. | :52:53. | |
manifesto commitment to replace the Vanguard submarines. It takes over a | :52:54. | :52:59. | |
decade to build and trial a nuclear submarine. We have to take that | :53:00. | :53:06. | |
decision in 2016. Let me tell the house that design work is already | :53:07. | :53:11. | |
far advanced. Yesterday, the review announced a further investment of | :53:12. | :53:15. | |
?600 million, taking the assessment phase cost from ?3.3 billion, to | :53:16. | :53:21. | |
?3.9 billion. If I may just make a little progress, it brings me to | :53:22. | :53:28. | |
the... Cost. It brings me to the question of why renewal is viable. I | :53:29. | :53:32. | |
want to make three basic points. First, this is about realism. We | :53:33. | :53:38. | |
are, of course, committed to creating the conditions where | :53:39. | :53:40. | |
nuclear weapons will no longer be necessary. In this country, we've | :53:41. | :53:46. | |
reduced our nuclear forces by well over half, since the height of the | :53:47. | :53:54. | |
Cold War. This year, this very year, I cut the number of deployed | :53:55. | :53:58. | |
warheads on each submarine from 48, down to 40. By the mid 2020s we will | :53:59. | :54:06. | |
reduced our stockpile to know more than 180 warheads. Unfortunately, | :54:07. | :54:14. | |
those actions have not been matched anywhere by any other nuclear | :54:15. | :54:18. | |
nation. Nor have they stopped on stable nations from continuing to | :54:19. | :54:25. | |
seek to acquire or develop nuclear weapons -- unstable nations. My | :54:26. | :54:29. | |
honourable friend was first. You mentioned the cost. Yesterday and | :54:30. | :54:35. | |
perhaps even today, we had effective opposition, there would be more | :54:36. | :54:40. | |
focus on cost overruns. This worries me. You are making honourable | :54:41. | :54:45. | |
efforts to do this at the MoD and I salute him, but can he give a | :54:46. | :54:48. | |
commitment that he really will hold the private sector with their feet | :54:49. | :54:52. | |
to the fire that there will be no more cost overruns? This is too big | :54:53. | :54:57. | |
a project to take money from the conventional forces. I can certainly | :54:58. | :55:02. | |
give my friend that assurance and I will come to that, how we we will | :55:03. | :55:08. | |
deliver the programme and keep the downward pressure on costs that he | :55:09. | :55:12. | |
wishes to see. I said that other nations have not matched our own | :55:13. | :55:18. | |
disarmament. Russia, indeed, is commissioning a new class of eight | :55:19. | :55:24. | |
nuclear submarines. Developing and preparing to deploy a variety of | :55:25. | :55:30. | |
land-based ICBM classes and is planning to introduce rail -based | :55:31. | :55:37. | |
ICBMs. Last month, North Korea showed off a long-range ballistic | :55:38. | :55:41. | |
missile carrying miniaturised nuclear warheads and North Korea has | :55:42. | :55:45. | |
carried out three nuclear tests and in defiance of the international | :55:46. | :55:49. | |
community, has conducted ballistic missile tests. In an unpredictable | :55:50. | :55:57. | |
nuclear age, we can't simply wish away threats that exist now or | :55:58. | :56:02. | |
threats that may emerge in the 20 30s the 20 40s and right through the | :56:03. | :56:08. | |
2050s. I give way. On the 14th of July this year, | :56:09. | :56:21. | |
China, the Russian Federation, the UK and the USA reached an agreement | :56:22. | :56:26. | |
with Iran which included the sentence. Under no circumstances | :56:27. | :56:31. | |
well the run ever seek to develop or acquire any nuclear weapons. | :56:32. | :56:41. | |
Progress is being made by negotiation -- under no | :56:42. | :56:46. | |
circumstances will Iran ever seek. Yes, but we have not had similar | :56:47. | :56:50. | |
promises from other states using nuclear weapons and there are still | :56:51. | :56:54. | |
a large number of trying to get their hands nuclear weapons. Let me | :56:55. | :56:58. | |
move on to... I will give way later on but I must make progress. My | :56:59. | :57:03. | |
second point is about the practical effect of the deterrent. Our nuclear | :57:04. | :57:08. | |
deterrent works. It deters aggression every single day. There | :57:09. | :57:12. | |
have been many conflicts in the last six decades and not one of them has | :57:13. | :57:17. | |
involved a direct conflict and wean nuclear states. Not one country | :57:18. | :57:22. | |
under the protection of an extended nuclear umbrella has been invaded -- | :57:23. | :57:33. | |
conflict between nuclear states. The member for Argyll and Bute is quite | :57:34. | :57:37. | |
wrong about that. It is operationally independent, with the | :57:38. | :57:41. | |
command and control system as well as the decision making process being | :57:42. | :57:45. | |
ours and ours alone and it of course offers a second decision making | :57:46. | :57:51. | |
centre within Nato that will compromise an adversarial's plans. | :57:52. | :57:58. | |
It is worth remembering that Nato is a nuclear alliance. One of the | :57:59. | :58:03. | |
absurdities, if I may say so, the SNP position is that while opposing | :58:04. | :58:07. | |
Trident they would, if voters had not actually rejected separatism | :58:08. | :58:14. | |
last year, they would have sought Nato membership and then not | :58:15. | :58:17. | |
benefited from the nuclear umbrella. The third reason why we must renew | :58:18. | :58:22. | |
our nuclear submarines is because at the moment there is no alternative. | :58:23. | :58:28. | |
How do we know that? We commissioned the Trident Alternatives Review in | :58:29. | :58:36. | |
2013 and that demonstrated, having looked at all the alternatives, | :58:37. | :58:40. | |
non-submarine and other submarines, in non-continuous deterrent, it | :58:41. | :58:46. | |
demonstrated no alternative system is as capable or cost-effective as | :58:47. | :58:51. | |
the Trident -based deterrent. If you accept there is a threat, and | :58:52. | :58:55. | |
perhaps the party there does not, but if you accept there is a threat | :58:56. | :58:59. | |
that needs to be deterred and if you accept our enemies work nights, the | :59:00. | :59:05. | |
work weekends, then you must also accept there can be no half | :59:06. | :59:12. | |
measures. A full boat, continuous at sea, posture is the way to offer the | :59:13. | :59:20. | |
security we need, at minimum. Thanks for giving way. Can he then | :59:21. | :59:24. | |
explained to me and my colleagues how Trident aggressors the real | :59:25. | :59:28. | |
current threat we are expecting, that from radical jihadis? Would | :59:29. | :59:32. | |
they not be jumping for joy if the United Kingdom ever thought about | :59:33. | :59:34. | |
threatening IS with nuclear weapons? As the document yesterday | :59:35. | :59:40. | |
pointed out there are a series of threats to our country at the moment | :59:41. | :59:43. | |
and we need to deal with all of them. One of them has been the | :59:44. | :59:50. | |
proliferation of nuclear weapons and indeed the commitment of countries | :59:51. | :59:54. | |
like Russia to continue to spend more on developing their nuclear | :59:55. | :59:58. | |
weapons, as I have pointed out. Now we have to... I must make a little | :59:59. | :00:03. | |
the consequences of passing this the consequences of passing this | :00:04. | :00:08. | |
motion tonight. It is scarcely believable that other nations, | :00:09. | :00:15. | |
hearing this news from 4pm today in the House of Commons, will suddenly | :00:16. | :00:20. | |
decide to disarm or to stop seeking nuclear weapons. There are 17,000 | :00:21. | :00:26. | |
nuclear weapons in the world at the moment. We would wish there were | :00:27. | :00:32. | |
not, but there are, and anybody voting in this division tonight has | :00:33. | :00:39. | |
to answer, who, after we have got read of hours, would continue to | :00:40. | :00:50. | |
provide the deterrent? -- rid of ours. Madam Speaker, I wonder what | :00:51. | :00:55. | |
message it sends to Rourke and unstable nations if Britain was to | :00:56. | :00:59. | |
scrap its nuclear deterrent? -- Road. It would send a message we are | :01:00. | :01:05. | |
not serious about deterrent other countries and particularly those | :01:06. | :01:11. | |
rogue countries now seeking everyday to develop the kind of nuclear | :01:12. | :01:15. | |
weapons exactly that we already have. In a moment, but we have | :01:16. | :01:21. | |
touched in this debate on the future of HM Naval base clade, one of the | :01:22. | :01:27. | |
largest employment basis in Scotland, a site set to increase to | :01:28. | :01:34. | |
2000 jobs by 2020 when all of the Royal Navy's submarines will be | :01:35. | :01:43. | |
based at five slain -- Naval base Clyde, when they will be based at | :01:44. | :01:48. | |
Faslane. It involves hundreds of firms across our country, including | :01:49. | :01:54. | |
in Scotland, because our state of the art submarines require skills | :01:55. | :01:58. | |
that keep our Royal Navy in our country at the cutting edge and will | :01:59. | :02:02. | |
inspire the next generation of engineers, software developers and | :02:03. | :02:05. | |
designers. If the honourable gentleman had his way, thousands of | :02:06. | :02:09. | |
jobs would disappear and those manufacturing skills would be lost. | :02:10. | :02:14. | |
In a moment, I am just finishing, in a moment. It was not made clear to | :02:15. | :02:19. | |
us how the Scottish National Party plan to deal with the industrial | :02:20. | :02:25. | |
damage that would result from their decision. In the Scottish Parliament | :02:26. | :02:28. | |
they hid behind a vague notion, and I quote, firm commitments must be | :02:29. | :02:35. | |
made to the trade unions on the retention of defence workers' jobs. | :02:36. | :02:40. | |
Workers on the Clyde do not want parliamentary motions. They want to | :02:41. | :02:43. | |
be sure of a pay check every month, they want to know they have a job, | :02:44. | :02:50. | |
and they'd either acting Scottish secretary of the GMB, Gary Smith, he | :02:51. | :02:57. | |
said diversification, and I quote, "is based on Alice In Wonderland | :02:58. | :03:03. | |
politics, promising pie in the sky alternative jobs for workers vital | :03:04. | :03:08. | |
to our national security". That is the authentic voice of the Scottish | :03:09. | :03:12. | |
trade unions. Of course I will give Billy. -- I will give way. The | :03:13. | :03:21. | |
permanent undersecretary said in October that this project, the | :03:22. | :03:24. | |
Trident project, is a project that keeps him awake at night. Given | :03:25. | :03:31. | |
their excessive escalation in Trident costs announced yesterday | :03:32. | :03:34. | |
can he not see how it undermines conventional forces? He may not lose | :03:35. | :03:40. | |
sleep over this but if the UK not sleepwalking into a reduction in | :03:41. | :03:43. | |
conventional forces due to your decisions? Well, the document we | :03:44. | :03:50. | |
published yesterday, the Strategic Defence and Security Review, it | :03:51. | :03:54. | |
really gives a lie to the honourable gentleman's comment because we are | :03:55. | :03:58. | |
spending more on that as well as renewing our programme. He is | :03:59. | :04:01. | |
correct that the management of that programme has to be done properly | :04:02. | :04:04. | |
and cost effectively and I will now turn, if I made, to this whole issue | :04:05. | :04:09. | |
of cuts. Let me make a little progress and then I will try to give | :04:10. | :04:13. | |
way again because I know a number of honourable members want to get in. | :04:14. | :04:18. | |
There have been some wild reports, even accentuated today, that the | :04:19. | :04:22. | |
Trident replacement will cost, I think, ?167 billion, it was | :04:23. | :04:28. | |
suggested. That sessions a year on year growth in GDP of 2.5%. That | :04:29. | :04:35. | |
same logic would see as spending ?800 billion on overseas aid over | :04:36. | :04:41. | |
the same period and a defence budget of ?100 billion in 2060. Let's look | :04:42. | :04:46. | |
at the facts. We now estimate four new submarines would cost ?31 | :04:47. | :04:54. | |
billion. That cost, spread over 35 years, amounts to an insurance | :04:55. | :05:04. | |
policy of less than 0.2% per year. That of total Government spending, | :05:05. | :05:09. | |
for a capability that will remain in service until 2060. Let me put that | :05:10. | :05:17. | |
?31 billion in context for the's, and indeed in context for those of | :05:18. | :05:24. | |
my honourable friends who are so keen on advanced high-speed railway | :05:25. | :05:29. | |
lines. It will cost ?31 billion, the programme, with a contingency above | :05:30. | :05:33. | |
that taking the total budget to some ?40 billion. High-speed two will | :05:34. | :05:41. | |
cost ?50 billion. Of course I will give way to the honourable member in | :05:42. | :05:49. | |
the second row -- HS2. You said you would put the ?31 billion in | :05:50. | :05:53. | |
context, but is that not only just an increase of six Boeing pounds in | :05:54. | :05:57. | |
the last year? At the contingency of tenderly and pounds -- ?6 billion. | :05:58. | :06:04. | |
Then the 12 billion extra pounds, which is clearly actually on Trident | :06:05. | :06:06. | |
and therefore the Defence Secretary must be making cuts to the tier one | :06:07. | :06:12. | |
threats to pay for a nuclear deterrent that has passed a tear two | :06:13. | :06:20. | |
threat. There is no doubt that it is coming in the place of conventional | :06:21. | :06:23. | |
protection. There are no cuts to weapons in this document we | :06:24. | :06:27. | |
published yesterday. On the contrary, there are more ships, more | :06:28. | :06:32. | |
planes, more equipment for the special forces, more frigates being | :06:33. | :06:36. | |
built on the Clyde. Let me be very clear. The figure has increased, and | :06:37. | :06:40. | |
we gave the update correctly to the House yesterday. It has increased | :06:41. | :06:45. | |
since last set out in a 2006 White Paper and then adjusted again in | :06:46. | :06:51. | |
2011 so we have given a figure, yesterday, that has been updated | :06:52. | :06:56. | |
from the original estimate four years ago. The cost, to be clear, is | :06:57. | :07:03. | |
?31 billion for the submarines, the four sub range, with the contingency | :07:04. | :07:08. | |
of ?10 billion on top of that. -- four submarines. As far as the | :07:09. | :07:12. | |
question asked by my honourable friend, from the depths of his | :07:13. | :07:16. | |
experience from the Public Accounts Committee, yes, we have to be eagle | :07:17. | :07:20. | |
eyed where costs are concerned. The new conventional submarine being | :07:21. | :07:27. | |
built, -- submarine playback, they are late, but the new successor ones | :07:28. | :07:35. | |
cannot be late -- submarines. We need to reform the way in which the | :07:36. | :07:40. | |
submarines are delivered to ensure the continuous sea deterrence can be | :07:41. | :07:43. | |
maintained and to ensure the taxpayer gets proper value for | :07:44. | :07:49. | |
money, so we are establishing a new delivery body for the success of | :07:50. | :07:53. | |
programme and a new team at the Ministry of Defence headed by an | :07:54. | :07:56. | |
experienced commercial specialist to act as the single sponsor for all | :07:57. | :08:01. | |
aspects of the defence nuclear enterprise, from requirement to | :08:02. | :08:09. | |
disposal. Yes, of course. I thank the Secretary for giving way. Does | :08:10. | :08:13. | |
he agree with me it is not a choice if we want to keep Britain safe, | :08:14. | :08:19. | |
between renewing our nuclear deterrent and taking the necessary | :08:20. | :08:23. | |
action against Isil. Both are vital, and that it would be foolhardy, not | :08:24. | :08:29. | |
to seek arrogant, to believe anyone in this House can predict the risks | :08:30. | :08:34. | |
and threats Britain will face in the next 30 or 40 years? I could not | :08:35. | :08:39. | |
have put that better. We tried to estimate here, in this document | :08:40. | :08:44. | |
yesterday, our latest assessment, the threats to our country, but we | :08:45. | :08:49. | |
should be honest and humble about this, the 2010 review did not | :08:50. | :08:53. | |
predict Russia, the actions they would take in Crimea or Ukraine and | :08:54. | :08:58. | |
nor did it predict the rise of Isil. We tried to predict ahead but we | :08:59. | :09:01. | |
cannot be sure further ahead. Let me see, finally, in conclusion, that | :09:02. | :09:09. | |
the people of Scotland voted last year to remain as part of the United | :09:10. | :09:15. | |
Kingdom, and let me mind of the House that the deterrent, no, I have | :09:16. | :09:20. | |
been generous in giving way, the deterrent is for the whole of the | :09:21. | :09:24. | |
United Kingdom. The people of Scotland will benefit from the | :09:25. | :09:27. | |
security that the deterrent provides. Parliament last fought it | :09:28. | :09:33. | |
on Trident by a majority, to support Trident, by a majority earlier this | :09:34. | :09:48. | |
year -- last voted. It bought on the principle of continuous sea | :09:49. | :09:50. | |
deterrence and the plans for the successor, today, this afternoon, we | :09:51. | :09:57. | |
face the SNP motion -- the vote earlier this year. This is not a | :09:58. | :10:05. | |
time to gamble with our security. It is a time, on the contrary, to | :10:06. | :10:09. | |
safeguard this generation and generations to come. Let me put this | :10:10. | :10:15. | |
as simply as the honourable member just put it to me. If you can be | :10:16. | :10:20. | |
sure, on either side of this House, that there will be no nuclear threat | :10:21. | :10:26. | |
that will emerge to this country throughout the 2030s, the 2040s, and | :10:27. | :10:33. | |
the 2050s, if you can be absolutely sure of that then vote for the | :10:34. | :10:40. | |
motion today. I cannot be sure... I cannot be prepared on this side of | :10:41. | :10:43. | |
the House to gamble with our nation's security. Toby Perkins. | :10:44. | :10:53. | |
Thank you, Madame Deputy Speaker. A great pleasure to respond to the | :10:54. | :10:57. | |
Opposition Day Debate on the renewal of Trident. Clearly this comes at a | :10:58. | :11:00. | |
time the Labour Party is conducting a review of our defence policies in | :11:01. | :11:05. | |
general and our approach to Trident in particular. The decision which | :11:06. | :11:08. | |
Parliament will make in the coming months regarding the future of the | :11:09. | :11:11. | |
UK's nuclear deterrent is a matter of huge importance for this country. | :11:12. | :11:16. | |
It will affect this country's defence and security strategy for | :11:17. | :11:19. | |
decades to come and our global standing. It will affect thousands | :11:20. | :11:24. | |
of livelihoods, as we heard, already today on the United Kingdom that | :11:25. | :11:27. | |
depend on renewing the deterrent. It will affect the role the naked | :11:28. | :11:31. | |
kingdom can play in the global process on disarmament and goes to | :11:32. | :11:34. | |
the very heart -- the United Kingdom. The heart of a relationship | :11:35. | :11:43. | |
with our Nato allies. Operation Relentless, the name for the current | :11:44. | :11:47. | |
at sea deterrent currently undertaken by the Vanguard class of | :11:48. | :11:51. | |
sub breeds has been patrolling since April 1969 and the British people, | :11:52. | :11:56. | |
rightly, do not expect parliamentarians to take such a | :11:57. | :11:58. | |
decision to end continue such controls like that -- of | :11:59. | :12:04. | |
submarines. They recognise it is complex and a fine political balance | :12:05. | :12:09. | |
as well as the question of military effectiveness. There are strong | :12:10. | :12:12. | |
views on each side of this debate and we have utmost respect for all | :12:13. | :12:16. | |
of those deeply held views, but let me be absolutely clear, this issue | :12:17. | :12:21. | |
is too important, for the future of our country, for members in this | :12:22. | :12:27. | |
House to play party political games with it. We all know the reason the | :12:28. | :12:32. | |
SNP have scheduled this half-day debate is not to influence | :12:33. | :12:35. | |
Government policy. There was in fact not one single to the -- single | :12:36. | :12:43. | |
question to the Government, but it was to score cheap political points. | :12:44. | :12:46. | |
If anyone seriously believe what we would hear today was a serious case | :12:47. | :12:50. | |
brought forward by the SNP, all they had to say, all they had to do was | :12:51. | :12:55. | |
to witness the speech made by the honourable gentleman for Argyle, who | :12:56. | :12:59. | |
could barely contain his delight in the fact that the Labour Party were | :13:00. | :13:03. | |
reviewing their position. There was no serious contribution to the | :13:04. | :13:07. | |
debate about Trident, no serious challenge to the Government, but | :13:08. | :13:11. | |
this is simply cheap political point scoring in exactly the same way they | :13:12. | :13:17. | |
did in the Opposition Day Debate back in January. As we are | :13:18. | :13:23. | |
conducting our... I have just said, in a moment. | :13:24. | :13:30. | |
Border! We don't have that in the chamber. | :13:31. | :13:37. | |
That's enough. The honourable gentleman does not wish to give way | :13:38. | :13:43. | |
at the moment, I am sure he will, in June course. Mr Perkins. Indeed, I | :13:44. | :13:50. | |
will. Once again, they are laughing, they think this is a highly | :13:51. | :13:56. | |
hilarious debate. This is not highly hilarious for the people whose lives | :13:57. | :14:00. | |
depend on it. And it is not highly hilarious for those who rely on the | :14:01. | :14:05. | |
Nato umbrella for their security and the nuclear deterrent. It is not | :14:06. | :14:07. | |
appropriate to vote on this motion when we are still conducting our | :14:08. | :14:12. | |
review, this is political point scoring. On the subject of cheap | :14:13. | :14:16. | |
political point scoring, I give way to the honourable gentleman. Labour | :14:17. | :14:22. | |
are in a total and utter shambles and mess with Trident. If the result | :14:23. | :14:26. | |
of this review being undertaken by the former Mayor of London | :14:27. | :14:29. | |
recommends that the Labour Party support their leader when it comes | :14:30. | :14:33. | |
to unilateral disarmament, will be rest of the Labour Party back him in | :14:34. | :14:38. | |
that? I will return in more detail to the we the review is put | :14:39. | :14:44. | |
together. To say an issue of this, where there are clearly differences | :14:45. | :14:48. | |
of opinion, for different people to be involved in, who have a | :14:49. | :14:51. | |
difference of opinion, is a shambles. It is a nonsense. It is | :14:52. | :14:55. | |
clear that the Labour Party are discussing this position. We will | :14:56. | :15:00. | |
listen to a variety of views. At the end, we will come to a conclusion. I | :15:01. | :15:05. | |
give way. I am grateful to the honourable gentleman. Many on this | :15:06. | :15:08. | |
side of the house would be sympathetic to the serious way that | :15:09. | :15:13. | |
he is tackling this matter. But, will he undertake to come back to | :15:14. | :15:18. | |
the house, when the review is complete, in order to clarify for | :15:19. | :15:22. | |
the nation watched the position is of the Labour Party? Clearly, it is | :15:23. | :15:28. | |
something where there cannot be fudging, you are in or out when it | :15:29. | :15:33. | |
comes to nuclear deterrent. -- to the nation what the position. I will | :15:34. | :15:37. | |
be able to offer more clarity very shortly. The motion that the SNP | :15:38. | :15:43. | |
brought forward, as the honourable gentleman was honest enough to | :15:44. | :15:47. | |
admit, has not been without problems. The original motion, which | :15:48. | :15:50. | |
each one of them signed without noticing the mistake, said that | :15:51. | :15:58. | |
Trident shouldn't be removed. Subsequently, they discovered that | :15:59. | :16:03. | |
they had made that mistake. As the Secretary of State made clear, the | :16:04. | :16:06. | |
motion talks about Trident. The decision we are facing at the moment | :16:07. | :16:10. | |
is about the renewal of the Vanguard class of submarines. Not about | :16:11. | :16:15. | |
renewing Trident. Important details like that may be lost to them. As | :16:16. | :16:21. | |
indeed, was apparently the outcome of the Scottish independence | :16:22. | :16:24. | |
referendum, which the majority of Scots voted in favour of staying in | :16:25. | :16:29. | |
the United Kingdom. Which they will be aware, involves being a part of | :16:30. | :16:36. | |
having Trident. I will give way. I am somewhat perplexed at this | :16:37. | :16:39. | |
assertion that we shouldn't be discussing Trident. This debate is | :16:40. | :16:42. | |
about Trident. It is vital we understand the position of the | :16:43. | :16:46. | |
members on this very important issue. Once again, it makes it clear | :16:47. | :16:52. | |
that this is about the Labour Party's position. I have attempted | :16:53. | :16:57. | |
to clarify the difference between the decision this council will face | :16:58. | :17:00. | |
shortly at the wording of the motion that is in front of us. I will | :17:01. | :17:07. | |
happily give way. I thank my honourable friend for giving way. | :17:08. | :17:11. | |
Does he share my disappointment, that even though the SNP called this | :17:12. | :17:15. | |
debate, they failed to set up their position either on how they would | :17:16. | :17:19. | |
replace jobs or how they would dispose of the weapons. Shouldn't | :17:20. | :17:23. | |
this debate be about their policy, since they called this debate | :17:24. | :17:24. | |
today? I have to say Madam Deputy Speaker, | :17:25. | :17:32. | |
for the second time today, she has hit the nail on the head. As a whole | :17:33. | :17:38. | |
series of inconsistencies about the SNP's position. Not only today. We | :17:39. | :17:41. | |
heard that the decision to go forward with Trident would be | :17:42. | :17:47. | |
choosing to go forward with that. Buying nuclear capabilities on the | :17:48. | :17:51. | |
backs of the poor. Only half an hour before that, we heard them saying | :17:52. | :17:55. | |
that all the money being spent on Trident would instead be spent on | :17:56. | :17:58. | |
conventional weapons. Either the money they are saving for Trident | :17:59. | :18:02. | |
will be spent on hospitals and schools and transport or it will be | :18:03. | :18:06. | |
spent on conventional forces. No one can blame the honourable gentleman | :18:07. | :18:11. | |
for being confused, the history of the SNP has a history of confusion. | :18:12. | :18:16. | |
2012, the honourable gentleman for Gordon said the savings would be | :18:17. | :18:22. | |
spent on conventional defence. But, he and Nicola Sturgeon was saying in | :18:23. | :18:26. | |
2014 they would spend the money saved on Trident on childcare. Good | :18:27. | :18:32. | |
morning Scotland, 2012, it would be spent on youth unemployment and | :18:33. | :18:38. | |
colleges. Scottish Parliament motion in 2012 is that it should be spent | :18:39. | :18:43. | |
on welfare. A whole variety and history of the Scottish National | :18:44. | :18:45. | |
Party utterly baffled about what this money will be spent on. I thank | :18:46. | :18:51. | |
you for giving way. It would be interesting to hear, I was being | :18:52. | :18:54. | |
heckled that this magic money tree could be spent on tax credits. | :18:55. | :18:59. | |
Another one to add to his long list. I will put it on my list at the end | :19:00. | :19:04. | |
if he doesn't mind. LAUGHTER It is an important point. We are | :19:05. | :19:08. | |
having a laugh but the truth is that people deserve clarity on what is | :19:09. | :19:12. | |
being said in this house, this is a matter of the utmost importance. I | :19:13. | :19:16. | |
will make progress but I will happily take more interventions | :19:17. | :19:21. | |
later. The honourable gentleman said a moment ago that Labour's position | :19:22. | :19:27. | |
needs to be clarified. As agreed by the national policy Forum in in 2014 | :19:28. | :19:30. | |
and approved by the Labour party conference in Brighton, we are | :19:31. | :19:34. | |
committed to a minimal credible nuclear deterrent at sea. That is | :19:35. | :19:41. | |
the policy that was in the manifesto and all Labour Party members fought | :19:42. | :19:47. | |
the 2015 general election on. We are proud of the previous Labour | :19:48. | :19:51. | |
government's approach on disarmament. We made huge progress | :19:52. | :19:55. | |
on nuclear disarmament through international frameworks and almost | :19:56. | :19:59. | |
half the number of operationally available warheads. Reduced the | :20:00. | :20:06. | |
number of deployed warheads. We scrapped the tactical nuclear | :20:07. | :20:10. | |
weapons in 1998, making the UK the only recognised nuclear armed NPT to | :20:11. | :20:15. | |
possess just one nuclear system. That is simply a declaration of | :20:16. | :20:20. | |
fact. Let me finish on this and I will happily give way. The member | :20:21. | :20:23. | |
for Islington North has recently been elected to the leader of the | :20:24. | :20:27. | |
Labour Party and his views on the subject are well known and he | :20:28. | :20:32. | |
appointed the honourable friends to be Secretary of State for Defence. | :20:33. | :20:35. | |
Knowing her clear position on this question. Thank you for the way you | :20:36. | :20:41. | |
are conducting this part. We'll be member indicated in terms of the | :20:42. | :20:45. | |
review that his party is carrying out, consider the invitations for | :20:46. | :20:51. | |
HMS Clyde, the submarine base at Faslane, the Royal Naval armaments | :20:52. | :20:55. | |
depot and the implications for Plymouth? I can absolutely give him | :20:56. | :21:04. | |
that assurance. This is very much a question about our military | :21:05. | :21:09. | |
capability. We can never removed the fact that this is a very important | :21:10. | :21:16. | |
economic regeneration question. As my right honourable friend for | :21:17. | :21:21. | |
Islington and Shadow Secretary of State for Defence on all aspects of | :21:22. | :21:26. | |
our defence policy including our nuclear deterrent, she has been | :21:27. | :21:30. | |
clear and she will read an evidence -based review in an open-minded and | :21:31. | :21:34. | |
inclusive and transparent way. It will investigate the issues that has | :21:35. | :21:37. | |
been reviewed on many occasions and searches for new relevant evidence. | :21:38. | :21:43. | |
I would be grateful if you could clarify for the house, you are doing | :21:44. | :21:49. | |
something important. Explaining how this review will operate. When he | :21:50. | :21:55. | |
says his honourable friend Shadow Secretary of State will lead the | :21:56. | :21:58. | |
view, will that be with Ken Livingstone or without him? If you | :21:59. | :22:01. | |
had been slightly more patient I would have got precisely to that | :22:02. | :22:08. | |
point. Bear with me. I will enlighten him. My honourable friend | :22:09. | :22:16. | |
will lead that review. The next sentence in fact. As is standard for | :22:17. | :22:20. | |
policy commissions, it will feed into the National policy Forum and a | :22:21. | :22:24. | |
member of the National executive committee, Ken Livingstone, will | :22:25. | :22:27. | |
convene that with you as per half of the NSC. It will be led by my | :22:28. | :22:33. | |
honourable friend, the member for Garston and Halewood. | :22:34. | :22:37. | |
Let me make progress, there are a lot of people who want to contribute | :22:38. | :22:43. | |
to this debate. I am keen to give them the opportunity to do so. It is | :22:44. | :22:47. | |
really important for our politics and all those on both sides of the | :22:48. | :22:51. | |
debate that we embrace the opportunity to debate the cases for | :22:52. | :22:56. | |
and against. Politics is changing. There is a mood for more | :22:57. | :23:00. | |
transparency, not just in our party but society as a whole. In the | :23:01. | :23:04. | |
Labour Party will welcome this opportunity. Assuming a policy of | :23:05. | :23:09. | |
multilateral, not unilateral disarmament has been the major | :23:10. | :23:12. | |
position for politics in 30 years. Many of these issues haven't been | :23:13. | :23:16. | |
the subject of widespread and inclusive debates. We welcome this | :23:17. | :23:20. | |
opportunity. As someone who willingly support the policy that | :23:21. | :23:22. | |
the Labour Party for the last general election on, I say that all | :23:23. | :23:26. | |
of us who support maintaining a nuclear presence should not be | :23:27. | :23:29. | |
afraid to allow open and honest debate on this important issue. I | :23:30. | :23:34. | |
will crack on. There are a lot of people who want to contribute and I | :23:35. | :23:38. | |
will try and take some more towards the end. They produce beta, it will | :23:39. | :23:43. | |
be ludicrous for me to pretend they're not differences of opinion | :23:44. | :23:46. | |
within the Labour Party and wider party about whether this is the | :23:47. | :23:52. | |
right policy. The National party conference and forum decide what the | :23:53. | :23:55. | |
Labour Party's approach will be in the future. This year's Labour Party | :23:56. | :23:59. | |
conference concluded that there were more pressing contemporary motions | :24:00. | :24:06. | |
to debate. The National policy Forum report reaffirmed the party's | :24:07. | :24:09. | |
support for the continuous at sea deterrent. I will give way briefly. | :24:10. | :24:14. | |
If the honourable gentleman mentions the Labour Party UK conference, but | :24:15. | :24:19. | |
he does not mention the Labour Party's Scottish conference, which | :24:20. | :24:24. | |
voted against Trident. Does that count for absolutely nothing? As | :24:25. | :24:27. | |
your boss told her Labour Party colleagues? Scotland just doesn't | :24:28. | :24:29. | |
matter, does it? Those kind of comments are utterly | :24:30. | :24:37. | |
offensive. LAUGHTER The truth of the matter... Once | :24:38. | :24:41. | |
again, we have an important matter here, people are watching and | :24:42. | :24:44. | |
people's jobs are on the line and the SNP are laughing their way | :24:45. | :24:49. | |
through this debate. The truth is that Scottish Labour Party had a | :24:50. | :24:51. | |
vote at their conference. Of course that will be considered as part of | :24:52. | :24:55. | |
many contributions that are made to this debate. The views of many | :24:56. | :24:59. | |
people and a variety of views will be considered. That vote that was | :25:00. | :25:04. | |
taking place, the views of individual members, will be | :25:05. | :25:07. | |
considered as part of that. I will give way to my honourable friend. | :25:08. | :25:08. | |
Thank you. As a neighbouring MP, he will | :25:09. | :25:18. | |
understand how important the Trident contract successor programme | :25:19. | :25:21. | |
contract will be to places like Sheffield in terms of jobs and | :25:22. | :25:25. | |
supply chain. But the tone of the debate today is important. The | :25:26. | :25:30. | |
importance of the debate but the tone is important. It is a UK matter | :25:31. | :25:36. | |
and it deserves a focus which is UK orientated, and not on a narrow | :25:37. | :25:38. | |
nationalist outlook. My honourable friend... My | :25:39. | :25:49. | |
honourable friend is absolutely right to say that there is a real | :25:50. | :25:57. | |
desire and real importance in this project to the supply chain right | :25:58. | :26:00. | |
across the country, not just in the areas where it will be built. | :26:01. | :26:07. | |
Absolutely this is a decision for the whole of the UK and it is one | :26:08. | :26:13. | |
that we will all be responsible for and all have a opportunity to | :26:14. | :26:19. | |
benefit from. In light of the lengthy procurement process required | :26:20. | :26:23. | |
for complex weapons systems, parliament voted in 2007 to maintain | :26:24. | :26:27. | |
the strategic nuclear deterrent beyond the lifetime of the existing | :26:28. | :26:31. | |
system. The Secretary of State spoke in more detail about some of the | :26:32. | :26:36. | |
history, but we should also remember that there are 28 Nato Alliance | :26:37. | :26:39. | |
members who are offered protection by each other. Our contribution is a | :26:40. | :26:44. | |
vital reassurance which was brought home to meet on a recent trip to | :26:45. | :26:48. | |
Brussels to meet with Nato allies. On the subject of unilateral | :26:49. | :26:58. | |
weapons, there is no guarantee that if Britain and France appeared to be | :26:59. | :27:01. | |
weak in their contribution, other countries couldn't decide that they | :27:02. | :27:05. | |
were not secure any longer and wouldn't look to procure their own | :27:06. | :27:10. | |
deterrence. That could lead to an increase in the number of nuclear | :27:11. | :27:18. | |
states. Today's events, the shooting down of a Russian aeroplanes | :27:19. | :27:23. | |
apparently by Turkish forces, should underline for us how pressures that | :27:24. | :27:29. | |
includes connection -- interconnection and mutuality is. | :27:30. | :27:35. | |
And how important it is that the UK sends a message to those who | :27:36. | :27:38. | |
threaten us that we resolute and trustworthy. Can I say I respect to | :27:39. | :27:44. | |
lead the way in which he is addressing this issue. But can he | :27:45. | :27:50. | |
talk, when he talks about the Labour Party reviewing its policies, can he | :27:51. | :27:54. | |
addressed the very worrying point is that whatever the outcome of the | :27:55. | :27:58. | |
review, the leader of the Labour Party has made it clear that under | :27:59. | :28:03. | |
no circumstances would he use the deterrent. Therefore, has the policy | :28:04. | :28:08. | |
not been decided, even if the Labour Party decides to go ahead, the | :28:09. | :28:13. | |
leader has said he will not do so and therefore denying its potency as | :28:14. | :28:18. | |
a deterrent. I understand what's the honourable gentleman is saying, but | :28:19. | :28:22. | |
I have to say that this is a project that will take place and will be | :28:23. | :28:30. | |
valuable to our country over 25, 30, many more years, and I think that as | :28:31. | :28:34. | |
a result, when you are making the significant infrastructure | :28:35. | :28:41. | |
decisions, the day to day of what is occurring is actually less important | :28:42. | :28:46. | |
than the longer term capability that you have. He has been so persistent | :28:47. | :28:54. | |
that I will give way. Earlier in his remarks about this review, he said | :28:55. | :28:59. | |
it would be co-convened by Ken Livingstone. Can I ask you to | :29:00. | :29:03. | |
clarify exactly what he means by court convened? What is happening | :29:04. | :29:09. | |
here is we have a review being taken place that is being led by the | :29:10. | :29:13. | |
shadow Secretary of State for Defence. Without going into too many | :29:14. | :29:23. | |
details about Labour Party processors -- processes... The | :29:24. | :29:29. | |
member of the National executive committee is involved in supporting | :29:30. | :29:36. | |
that process and that is the role that Ken Livingstone is going to be | :29:37. | :29:40. | |
playing. As I have said a moment ago, this is not the first time that | :29:41. | :29:46. | |
the SNP has brought this question to the house, but they will know that | :29:47. | :29:50. | |
their own policy has failed to stand up to scrutiny. The White Paper that | :29:51. | :29:56. | |
preceded their failed referendum campaign provided no cost for | :29:57. | :30:02. | |
personnel are budgets... I am not giving way. I will complete my | :30:03. | :30:06. | |
speech. We listen to the gentleman for quite some length and I'd still | :30:07. | :30:10. | |
do not do what he thinks. The White Paper failed to confront the | :30:11. | :30:16. | |
contradictions of the SNP and their desire to join Nato, to remove all | :30:17. | :30:23. | |
nuclear weapons from Scottish soil. It was very clear in his | :30:24. | :30:27. | |
contribution that he had no clear understanding of what they were | :30:28. | :30:29. | |
signing up to when they said they were going to join Nato. It was | :30:30. | :30:33. | |
clear they thought they were going to be a part of this alliance but | :30:34. | :30:38. | |
somehow removed from the policies that Nato have. Does the honourable | :30:39. | :30:43. | |
gentleman believe that there is no such thing as a non-nuclear member | :30:44. | :30:47. | |
of Nato and does he not understand that as I pointed out, the last two | :30:48. | :30:51. | |
general secretaries of NATO come from those non-nuclear countries of | :30:52. | :30:59. | |
Denmark and Norway? It is not a case of my opinion. It is a matter of | :31:00. | :31:04. | |
simple fact that NATO is a nuclear alliance. Membership of Nato, which | :31:05. | :31:08. | |
the SNP supports, requires allies to be members of the Nato nuclear | :31:09. | :31:12. | |
alliance and to sit on the appropriate committees, so the fact | :31:13. | :31:16. | |
of the matter is that an independent Scotland that was a part of NATO | :31:17. | :31:19. | |
would be covered by the nuclear umbrella and I suspect if I am | :31:20. | :31:29. | |
entirely frank I suspect it is because they are covered that they | :31:30. | :31:34. | |
want to be a part of it, to try to give reassurance to their own | :31:35. | :31:37. | |
members, so it is not a matter of my own opinion, it is a simple | :31:38. | :31:42. | |
statement of fact. On the back of yesterday's FDS or -- SDSR the | :31:43. | :32:00. | |
Government needs to give the latest figures of warhead refurbishment and | :32:01. | :32:03. | |
can the Minister confirm that the Treasury are to take the lead | :32:04. | :32:06. | |
regarding the procurement of the Vanguard successor class and can he | :32:07. | :32:10. | |
explain why in setting up the mechanics of that arrangement, can | :32:11. | :32:14. | |
he say what he thinks that says about the level of confidence the | :32:15. | :32:21. | |
Chancellor has in his department. Was this decision made with the | :32:22. | :32:24. | |
support of the secretary of state and if so why did he think it was | :32:25. | :32:27. | |
better handled outside of his department and finally can he | :32:28. | :32:30. | |
clarify the timescales of the successor programme and what | :32:31. | :32:33. | |
criteria have the decided to further extend the lives of the existing | :32:34. | :32:37. | |
fleet? What is the strategy underpinning this decision, and most | :32:38. | :32:40. | |
importantly, can the department resolutely guarantee that this | :32:41. | :32:42. | |
decision will not adversely of effect the maintenance of art | :32:43. | :32:48. | |
continuous at the deterrent? I hope that the minister who is in his | :32:49. | :32:52. | |
place will have the opportunity to respond to those points at the end. | :32:53. | :32:58. | |
These are points that you might reasonably have expected the people | :32:59. | :33:00. | |
bringing the debate, who had much longer to scrutinise the Government | :33:01. | :33:04. | |
on, but of course are only interested in highlighting the | :33:05. | :33:06. | |
difficulties that they perceive in the Labour Party. In summary, the | :33:07. | :33:11. | |
Labour Party's review under the stewardship of my honourable friend | :33:12. | :33:15. | |
from Garston will consider any new evidence, it will examining the | :33:16. | :33:19. | |
views of people from across the spectrum and will allow people from | :33:20. | :33:23. | |
across the party, the trade union movement, and in communities right | :33:24. | :33:25. | |
across the land to engage in the debate. It will learn about the | :33:26. | :33:30. | |
facts, it will debunk the myths as part of the national conversation. | :33:31. | :33:34. | |
We will not strengthen the debates, we will relish them. This is an | :33:35. | :33:37. | |
issue on which we believe there needs to be more like ambushed | :33:38. | :33:44. | |
heat. -- is more like an less heat. The house can be assured that when | :33:45. | :33:47. | |
that review has been concluded, the Labour Party will have a position | :33:48. | :33:50. | |
that has been the subject of the widest public debates in the history | :33:51. | :33:54. | |
of military decision-making and will be able to real confidence that the | :33:55. | :33:59. | |
decision reached is one the party and indeed the country can support | :34:00. | :34:06. | |
with confidence. Order. A great many people have indicated to me that | :34:07. | :34:08. | |
they would like to speak in this debate and the house will be aware | :34:09. | :34:11. | |
that there is another important debate to follow. I therefore have | :34:12. | :34:14. | |
to put a time limit on that bench speeches of six minutes, starting | :34:15. | :34:19. | |
with immediate effect as we hear from Mrs Cheryl Murray. Thank you | :34:20. | :34:26. | |
very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. Members will know of my special | :34:27. | :34:31. | |
interest in the Royal Navy, as the mother of a serving Royal Navy | :34:32. | :34:34. | |
warfare officer, although I am absolutely sure that my daughter | :34:35. | :34:38. | |
would want to stick to surface ships and she wouldn't want to serve in | :34:39. | :34:43. | |
any of the four Vanguard class submarines. I am really pleased that | :34:44. | :34:48. | |
the honourable member for Glasgow North has joined the family of | :34:49. | :34:52. | |
people in this house who have connections with the Royal Navy and | :34:53. | :34:57. | |
I hope that she will make a contribution to many debates. It is | :34:58. | :35:05. | |
now over 70 years since these bombs were used in anger, and we must | :35:06. | :35:09. | |
remember that this is not new technology, but the threat is real | :35:10. | :35:14. | |
and that is why we must have a credible nuclear deterrent, that | :35:15. | :35:21. | |
others believe will be used if we are attacked. A continuous at sea | :35:22. | :35:29. | |
nuclear deterrent is essential because that deterrent must have two | :35:30. | :35:35. | |
also be credible. It gives the UK the ability to respond instantly | :35:36. | :35:42. | |
from a movable location, which assists security against any | :35:43. | :35:45. | |
possible threats. Throughout my life, no matter if we have had a | :35:46. | :35:50. | |
Labour or Conservative Government, I believe we have had a credible | :35:51. | :35:53. | |
deterrent because we had the leadership to back it up. The | :35:54. | :36:02. | |
honourable member and many of her colleagues have criticised the | :36:03. | :36:07. | |
Leader of the Opposition because presumably if you promise not to use | :36:08. | :36:11. | |
it, it is not a deterrent. Did the honourable member tellers in what | :36:12. | :36:16. | |
circumstances she would in all conscience launch an attack that | :36:17. | :36:21. | |
would annihilate tens of thousands of innocent civilians? The point is, | :36:22. | :36:26. | |
if you have the deterrent and you lead people to think you can use it, | :36:27. | :36:32. | |
then that is what the deterrent is about. It is no good publicising the | :36:33. | :36:38. | |
fact that you are never going to fire it. That is a useless | :36:39. | :36:45. | |
deterrent. Thank you for giving weight. May be concluded in simpler | :36:46. | :36:49. | |
terms since they are struggling to understand what he deterrent as, | :36:50. | :36:53. | |
maybe we could use an analogy with a burglar alarm. You have a burglar | :36:54. | :36:57. | |
alarm which you turn on when you go out because you hope that it will | :36:58. | :37:01. | |
put people off from breaking in. We have a nuclear deterrent which is | :37:02. | :37:03. | |
there when we go to bed to keep our there when we go to bed to keep our | :37:04. | :37:08. | |
country safe. We need also to remember that the UK's nuclear | :37:09. | :37:13. | |
deterrent contributes towards our collective security as part of NATO. | :37:14. | :37:22. | |
If the UK did not have a deterrent, NATO's collective security would be | :37:23. | :37:26. | |
weakened, leaving the UK dependent on others, which seems to be what | :37:27. | :37:31. | |
the party opposite are determined to want to do. I thank the member for | :37:32. | :37:37. | |
giving weight. On the message of deterrent, does it not also mean we | :37:38. | :37:41. | |
are the most direct threat to other states which have nuclear weapons, | :37:42. | :37:44. | |
therefore rather than be a deterrent, we are a key target in | :37:45. | :37:50. | |
this family of nations? A deterrent is extremely important and that is | :37:51. | :37:54. | |
precisely what it is. It is not there to use in anger and I remind | :37:55. | :38:00. | |
him that the words that I started with, 70 years ago, was the last | :38:01. | :38:08. | |
time that these bombs were used in anger. Now, I speak today not just | :38:09. | :38:13. | |
because I believe in credible nuclear deterrent, but because I do, | :38:14. | :38:21. | |
but also because of the importance it has two my constituents. Trident | :38:22. | :38:26. | |
has provided the massive amount of employment for my constituents in | :38:27. | :38:31. | |
South East Cornwall. In the same way as at Faslane and Coalport provide a | :38:32. | :38:36. | |
massive amount of employment north of the border. No, I am sorry. I | :38:37. | :38:45. | |
have used up my time. Repair, refuelling and refit of the Vanguard | :38:46. | :38:55. | |
class submarines is carried out at D154 in the constituency of my | :38:56. | :38:59. | |
honourable friend the member for Plymouth, Sutton and Davenport. The | :39:00. | :39:02. | |
expertise and experience that Davenport now has should be utilised | :39:03. | :39:09. | |
in any future programme. As a local County Council at the time, I will | :39:10. | :39:12. | |
never forget standing by the banks of the River Kmart -- Taymar and | :39:13. | :39:23. | |
watching the first nuclear submarine come in for a refit, continuing to | :39:24. | :39:27. | |
refuel and refit the submarines is likely to safeguard around 2000 | :39:28. | :39:33. | |
jobs. I fully support the Government in its global -- in its goal is to | :39:34. | :39:40. | |
have the successor submarines replace the existing Vanguard class | :39:41. | :39:44. | |
ones and also to have a credible nuclear deterrent to protect this | :39:45. | :39:49. | |
nation for future decades. John Woodcock. Thank you Madam Deputy | :39:50. | :39:56. | |
Speaker and what a pleasure it is to follow such a thoughtful and well | :39:57. | :39:58. | |
informed speech from the honourable lady. Madam Deputy Speaker, I wish | :39:59. | :40:04. | |
you had been in for the start of this today. What a shambles it was. | :40:05. | :40:08. | |
Just let me give you, for background, the context. We have a | :40:09. | :40:15. | |
party over their who is frankly presiding over the mismanagement of | :40:16. | :40:21. | |
the core activities of Government in its nation in health and education, | :40:22. | :40:29. | |
which is frankly a disgrace. Let me just tell the house the dreadful | :40:30. | :40:37. | |
mess that they are making of health and education because there is a | :40:38. | :40:42. | |
need for this. If you will just take a seat for a moment. Let me just | :40:43. | :40:50. | |
explain. The honourable gentleman has | :40:51. | :41:01. | |
indicated he will give way shortly. Mr John Woodcock. A point of order. | :41:02. | :41:12. | |
Point of order, sir. The honourable member said he is talking about | :41:13. | :41:20. | |
health and education. It is not applicable to today's motion. I | :41:21. | :41:26. | |
thank the honourable gentleman for his point of order. I am listening | :41:27. | :41:30. | |
carefully to what the honourable gentleman is saying and I will | :41:31. | :41:34. | |
decide if he has strayed from the motion. At the moment my | :41:35. | :41:38. | |
interpretation is that the honourable gentleman is introducing | :41:39. | :41:42. | |
his speech and he will come to the precise point of the motion very | :41:43. | :41:50. | |
shortly. Mr Woodcock. They do not like people holding them to account | :41:51. | :41:56. | |
for the terrible failure. I was just explaining the disgraceful mess that | :41:57. | :42:01. | |
they are making of skills in Scotland where the poorest children | :42:02. | :42:06. | |
are being left behind. If you would not mind. I would have been happy to | :42:07. | :42:13. | |
take every single one of you robots, getting your instructions. I would | :42:14. | :42:18. | |
have been happy, but the thing is, Madame Deputy Speaker, that the | :42:19. | :42:24. | |
proposers of your motion refused point-blank to take me... Point of | :42:25. | :42:34. | |
order, Mr Nicholson. Can we have some clarification on whether the | :42:35. | :42:39. | |
charming expression robot is parliamentary language or not? Yes, | :42:40. | :42:48. | |
Mr Nicholson, I was just turning over in my mind whether the | :42:49. | :42:53. | |
description robot for a member of this house would be considered to be | :42:54. | :43:00. | |
derogatory. I have come to the conclusion that in some | :43:01. | :43:04. | |
circumstances it might and in some it might not. For the moment I am | :43:05. | :43:14. | |
concluding for my own peace of mind that the honourable gentleman was | :43:15. | :43:19. | |
thinking of a high functioning, intelligent robot and therefore, for | :43:20. | :43:25. | |
the moment, I will not call him to order for the use of the word. But I | :43:26. | :43:31. | |
am sure the House will be warned that we should be very careful in | :43:32. | :43:39. | |
our use of language. Mr Woodcock. Point of order, Mr Paisley. I got | :43:40. | :43:48. | |
the honourable gentleman called them Roberts and anyone from Scotland | :43:49. | :43:52. | |
should not mind being called Robert the Bruce. As to Mr Paisley's point | :43:53. | :44:00. | |
of order, every elder male member of my own family for the last 100 years | :44:01. | :44:06. | |
has been called Robert, it must be a good thing. Point of order. Given | :44:07. | :44:13. | |
colleagues from the SNP will miss report this on twitter, with the use | :44:14. | :44:22. | |
of cider in that be acceptable? We will have no more points of order on | :44:23. | :44:27. | |
this issue, any term that is considered in any way derogatory | :44:28. | :44:32. | |
will not be allowed and I will be listening very carefully for the | :44:33. | :44:39. | |
rest of the debate. Mr Woodcock. I am very happy to refer to them as | :44:40. | :44:42. | |
honourable robots, if that is any help. But robots they are, following | :44:43. | :44:48. | |
the instructions and an almost never be before seeing unity. I was | :44:49. | :45:05. | |
discussing the failure hospitals over which they are presiding. | :45:06. | :45:09. | |
Instead of dealing with that they seek this Parliamentary distraction | :45:10. | :45:13. | |
of a debate on Trident. We are not going to fall for it. I will give | :45:14. | :45:21. | |
way. I must say I appreciate the fact you have given way to me | :45:22. | :45:28. | |
because you should have given way earlier in the opening debate. You | :45:29. | :45:33. | |
have set the context, but would it surprise the honourable gentleman | :45:34. | :45:38. | |
that today in another place in the Northern Ireland assembly Sinn | :45:39. | :45:42. | |
Fein, who butchered and bombed people across the entire United | :45:43. | :45:46. | |
Kingdom have a similar motion calling for the cancellation of | :45:47. | :45:50. | |
Trident also? Would he like to reflect on that? It is something the | :45:51. | :45:56. | |
party may wish to reflect on one day when they are winding up. I will go | :45:57. | :46:02. | |
back to them in a moment. If I could just employ the Minister in | :46:03. | :46:07. | |
responding, because I was not able to intervene for a second time with | :46:08. | :46:11. | |
the Secretary of State. If he wants to intervene, it would be helpful if | :46:12. | :46:17. | |
he could make clear that the change in management structure for this | :46:18. | :46:21. | |
programme will in no way affect the superb workforce in | :46:22. | :46:24. | |
Barrow-in-Furness, in Derby and in so many constituencies around the | :46:25. | :46:31. | |
country. This is a measure that has been long discussed and is meant to | :46:32. | :46:36. | |
get increased effectiveness out of the programme. If he could also in | :46:37. | :46:42. | |
his winding up give us a comment on what the extra pressure which may be | :46:43. | :46:49. | |
placed on an already ageing Vanguard class by the further delay and | :46:50. | :46:53. | |
whether the Royal Navy and his department have done the scoping | :46:54. | :47:00. | |
that this extra delay will engender? This is a debate about the | :47:01. | :47:07. | |
party next to me. They seem perfectly happy to cancel, to scrap, | :47:08. | :47:20. | |
10,000 jobs in Faslane. If you would just sit down. All just sit down. I | :47:21. | :47:27. | |
will explain to them. I would have been happy to take them all, but the | :47:28. | :47:37. | |
honourable chief robot refused to take me even once. I am not taking | :47:38. | :47:43. | |
them at all. They would be happy to throw on the unemployment | :47:44. | :47:47. | |
scrapheap... I am not going to give weight to any of them. Not at all, | :47:48. | :47:57. | |
no matter how many times they asked. -- give way. Let me read very | :47:58. | :48:01. | |
quickly in the remaining time I have a list of some of the constituencies | :48:02. | :48:07. | |
that are affected in Scotland by the submarine supply chain. Aberdeen | :48:08. | :48:15. | |
North, Coatbridge, Bellshill, Cumbernauld, Dunfermline, East | :48:16. | :48:21. | |
Kilbride, central Glasgow, is Glasgow, Kirkcaldy, Cowdenbeath, | :48:22. | :48:29. | |
Paisley, Midlothian, West Aberdeenshire, West Dunbartonshire. | :48:30. | :48:36. | |
All of those constituencies, they would throw their constituents on | :48:37. | :48:42. | |
the unemployment scrapheap. I am not going to get any more time. I want | :48:43. | :48:48. | |
to finish on this argument that he has made very clearly of it being | :48:49. | :48:56. | |
morally indefensible for a state to possess nuclear weapons. I do not | :48:57. | :49:00. | |
agree with him at all because they are there to prevent nuclear weapons | :49:01. | :49:05. | |
being fired. If they think it is morally indefensible, if they think | :49:06. | :49:12. | |
it is repugnant, how is it that they are happy to be under the nuclear | :49:13. | :49:17. | |
umbrella of another nation? This is not a case of other Nato members not | :49:18. | :49:25. | |
having nuclear weapons. I do not think I can use the word hypocrisy. | :49:26. | :49:33. | |
It is a rank wrong that they feel able to shelter when they are happy | :49:34. | :49:38. | |
to name call the rest of the United Kingdom for wanting to keep nuclear | :49:39. | :49:43. | |
weapons. In fact, the question here is not do we not not go ahead with | :49:44. | :49:50. | |
Trident? The votes for that I nailed on. This will go past the point of | :49:51. | :49:56. | |
no return. The real question in this debate is where in which one of | :49:57. | :50:01. | |
those members' constituencies is the nuclear toxic waste that they have | :50:02. | :50:05. | |
admitted they would take. Where is it going to go? Which plays in | :50:06. | :50:12. | |
Scotland? This is an extremely important debate and already this | :50:13. | :50:16. | |
afternoon we have heard some errant wrongs in the nature of our Nato | :50:17. | :50:21. | |
alliance. I hope you will forgive me for correcting them. Nato is a | :50:22. | :50:28. | |
nuclear pact, Nato demands nuclear capability, Nato requires states to | :50:29. | :50:33. | |
allow deployable nuclear weapons. It is simply incorrect to say that any | :50:34. | :50:38. | |
Nato member states can be a member with that tolerating, allowing and | :50:39. | :50:44. | |
even permitting the deployment of nuclear weapons from its states. | :50:45. | :50:49. | |
Germany has artillery that is nuclear capable, Belgium has | :50:50. | :50:52. | |
aircraft, Denmark has runways for it. Denmark has submarines based | :50:53. | :51:01. | |
sport it in Danish waters. Every Nato state is nuclear capable and | :51:02. | :51:06. | |
allows the firing of nuclear weapons from its territory. That is part of | :51:07. | :51:12. | |
the 1949 lives. If you do not like it, do not sign it. It is very | :51:13. | :51:18. | |
clear. And the reason Nato countries signed this alliance is for a good | :51:19. | :51:25. | |
reason. It is because nuclear weapons work. Since 1949 no nuclear | :51:26. | :51:29. | |
states have fought each other and no nuclear states have gone to war in | :51:30. | :51:35. | |
any way. Why? Because nuclear weapons are utterly awful. Does he | :51:36. | :51:41. | |
agree with many venerable academics who believe that if it had not been | :51:42. | :51:47. | |
for nuclear weapons, it is almost certain that in the Cold War period | :51:48. | :51:51. | |
we would have had a third conventional world war which would | :51:52. | :51:54. | |
have been far more bloody and brutal than the first and second? I agree | :51:55. | :52:02. | |
absolutely. The appalling nature of nuclear weapons is what keeps us | :52:03. | :52:07. | |
safe. The very fact they are an existential threat to so many | :52:08. | :52:11. | |
regimes and dreadful leaders around the world is exactly what puts them | :52:12. | :52:17. | |
off. A few bunkers and no society could survive a nuclear attack and | :52:18. | :52:22. | |
that is why they work. Nobody wishes to face them. I will give way. He is | :52:23. | :52:28. | |
giving a very powerful speech, would he agree that Nato is about making | :52:29. | :52:37. | |
an attack either conventional or nuclear on its members absolutely | :52:38. | :52:43. | |
futile? The honourable member is absolutely right and in highlighting | :52:44. | :52:47. | |
the fact that war is the real enemy, we only need look at the loss of | :52:48. | :52:54. | |
life that war has seen in the past century. The terrible destruction | :52:55. | :52:58. | |
led by conventional weapons that were, with great irony, stopped by | :52:59. | :53:05. | |
the two attacks on Hiroshima. They were utterly awful and I will not in | :53:06. | :53:11. | |
any way say that they were not. It is clear what they did was to | :53:12. | :53:16. | |
prevent the loss of hundreds of thousands of American lives and | :53:17. | :53:21. | |
Japanese lives as well. Prisoners of war survived those and many of our | :53:22. | :53:26. | |
relatives survived the Second World War because those two attacks, the | :53:27. | :53:32. | |
shop and the horror of them, ended the Second World War early and thank | :53:33. | :53:35. | |
God it did because hundreds of thousands of lives were saved. But | :53:36. | :53:43. | |
nuclear weapons are part of a spectrum of defence, part of | :53:44. | :53:47. | |
everything from the infantry soldier with his bayonet right the way | :53:48. | :53:49. | |
through to the Trident nuclear submarine. They work across the | :53:50. | :53:56. | |
entire spectrum because it is only the range that allows her Majesty's | :53:57. | :54:00. | |
Armed Forces of the United Kingdom to intervene at an appropriate level | :54:01. | :54:07. | |
on each occasion. But in exactly the same way as the diplomat requires | :54:08. | :54:12. | |
the military for his words to have credibility, so too does the soldier | :54:13. | :54:16. | |
required the submarine to know that he will not be undermined by some | :54:17. | :54:22. | |
attack from one of the other states which may sympathise with their | :54:23. | :54:26. | |
enemies. I am very grateful to my honourable friend who is making a | :54:27. | :54:32. | |
powerful contribution. In his considerable experience working in | :54:33. | :54:35. | |
the Ministry of Defence, has he ever seen a viable reorientation of | :54:36. | :54:40. | |
defence expenditure away from the nuclear deterrent that would give us | :54:41. | :54:43. | |
the same level of assurance round our defence? Someone has been done | :54:44. | :54:50. | |
at various times, but only at the basic levels. The truth is when | :54:51. | :54:56. | |
people talk about the cost of defence, and quite rightly, and they | :54:57. | :55:00. | |
look at the cost of the nuclear deterrent, what they rarely look at | :55:01. | :55:03. | |
is how much would the conventional alternative cost? If you truly wish | :55:04. | :55:11. | |
to deter and persuade an enemy that you will not be steam-rollered by | :55:12. | :55:14. | |
their wish, you will not be blackmailed by their desires, you | :55:15. | :55:18. | |
need to have a deterrent that allows you not to strike first, but to | :55:19. | :55:25. | |
strike back. Nothing, no conventional force, offers the same | :55:26. | :55:29. | |
pound for pound capability as the continuous, at sea, nuclear | :55:30. | :55:35. | |
deterrent. That is why you may not like it, but the nuclear deterrent | :55:36. | :55:42. | |
is the cheapest alternative. I thank the honourable gentleman. He talks a | :55:43. | :55:46. | |
lot about the deterrent. The deterrent is not working when we | :55:47. | :55:49. | |
have Russian submarines in our coastal waters, spotted not by | :55:50. | :55:57. | |
maritime patrol aircraft or vessels, but by fishing boats. We are in the | :55:58. | :56:01. | |
ridiculous situation that our deterrent is either nuke them or | :56:02. | :56:06. | |
chased them away with these bayonets. | :56:07. | :56:15. | |
The lady makes a factually unsound point at the factually unsound point | :56:16. | :56:20. | |
is that our capabilities are indeed to chase them away with Hunter | :56:21. | :56:24. | |
submarines and with the Royal Navy patrol vessels and that is exactly | :56:25. | :56:27. | |
what they are doing, but what is most important is that when we see | :56:28. | :56:31. | |
those Russian submarines coming towards us, we not immediately | :56:32. | :56:36. | |
think, let us bow to Mr Putin's latest desires, let us bow towards | :56:37. | :56:44. | |
the Kremlin's wishes. No, we think, they won't dare and we know that | :56:45. | :56:50. | |
they won't dare and that is what guarantees as the independence of | :56:51. | :56:54. | |
movement that we require as an active supporter of human rights and | :56:55. | :56:57. | |
of the dignity of humanity in this world. Would you accept that the | :56:58. | :57:02. | |
ultimate proof that they are a deterrent is the fact that while the | :57:03. | :57:06. | |
submarines may be circling around the UK, they are not firing | :57:07. | :57:12. | |
missiles? The honourable member is absolutely right, of course. The one | :57:13. | :57:16. | |
last point I would like to make is that as we look around the world | :57:17. | :57:20. | |
today and we say the real threat is of course militant Jihad -ism or | :57:21. | :57:28. | |
something to do with the dirty bomb. Well, of course, that is true | :57:29. | :57:32. | |
but I wonder how many members would have looked around the world 20 | :57:33. | :57:36. | |
years ago and said we have got to be worried about Isis. I wonder how | :57:37. | :57:39. | |
many members would have looked around the world and said a | :57:40. | :57:42. | |
resurgent Russia after the end of the Cold War... I must make | :57:43. | :57:49. | |
progress. The problem is not going to be that Russia is going to be one | :57:50. | :57:52. | |
of our allies as we very much hoped it would be in the 90s, but the fact | :57:53. | :57:56. | |
that she's going to be resurgent. She would have changed one of the | :57:57. | :57:59. | |
borders of a European country since the first time since 1945. She's | :58:00. | :58:03. | |
going to be sponsoring militias in the UK going -- in the Ukraine. Who | :58:04. | :58:13. | |
would have predicted this? I would wager no one and because of this | :58:14. | :58:17. | |
inability to predict, it is essential that we here in the UK | :58:18. | :58:23. | |
guarantee the ultimate security for us and for our children. It is not | :58:24. | :58:27. | |
enough to wish for peace. You must work for it and you must fight for | :58:28. | :58:30. | |
it and the nuclear deterrent is the ultimate proof that we will both | :58:31. | :58:34. | |
work and fight for our own security. I should start by | :58:35. | :58:43. | |
declaring an interest as a member of the Scottish CND. Like the other | :58:44. | :58:49. | |
members of the Public Accounts Committee, has died this debate with | :58:50. | :58:53. | |
some advantage in that we took evidence from the permanent | :58:54. | :58:57. | |
undersecretary to the Ministry of Defence and we heard for ourselves | :58:58. | :59:02. | |
the MoD's misgivings about Trident, about how it is unaffordable and | :59:03. | :59:04. | |
about how would threaten spending on other equipment. We are hearing the | :59:05. | :59:10. | |
Prime Minister's war drums beating, that he wants to open another | :59:11. | :59:14. | |
waterfront in Syria to enter the current commitments of service | :59:15. | :59:17. | |
personnel around the globe including you rock and Afghanistan. While we | :59:18. | :59:24. | |
have troops engaged abroad, the MoD was telling us that the inventory of | :59:25. | :59:27. | |
support material for the Armed Forces has been cut by a quarter in | :59:28. | :59:30. | |
the last four years and is about to be slashed from ?30 million to less | :59:31. | :59:35. | |
than ?10 billion by keeping what is described as the minimum amount of | :59:36. | :59:41. | |
kit. But spending on Trident is to be protected and enhanced. We were | :59:42. | :59:46. | |
told that a huge gap, some ?8.5 billion exist between what the | :59:47. | :59:50. | |
generals, the admirals, in the air Chief Marshal 's say that the Armed | :59:51. | :59:54. | |
Forces need and what is Whitehall is prepared to provide. In the words of | :59:55. | :59:57. | |
the permanent undersecretary, a process of going through what people | :59:58. | :00:00. | |
want and saying, I know you would like that fantastic new thing, | :00:01. | :00:04. | |
actually what you need is this will lower the bill. So why can't the | :00:05. | :00:10. | |
encounters will be telling the Armed Forces what they really need but | :00:11. | :00:14. | |
spending on Trident will be sacrosanct. There will not be | :00:15. | :00:17. | |
back-up body armour for troops on the battlefield but there will be | :00:18. | :00:20. | |
plenty of cash for Trident. Provision of troop transport options | :00:21. | :00:23. | |
will be a matter for Whitehall, but the transport of weapons of mass | :00:24. | :00:27. | |
destruction cannot be questioned. I have to say, the nuclear enterprise | :00:28. | :00:31. | |
we were told is what keeps the MoD senior civil servants awake at | :00:32. | :00:34. | |
night. The permanent undersecretary said that the current annual running | :00:35. | :00:40. | |
costs of Trident is in excess of ?3.5 billion. But if it is renewed, | :00:41. | :00:45. | |
this will rise to be more than ?5 billion per year. He said that he | :00:46. | :00:52. | |
could drive savings in other areas, but that project is a monster, I am | :00:53. | :00:57. | |
quoting, and it is an incredibly completed area in which to try to | :00:58. | :01:01. | |
estimate future costs. So while Trident and other unusable and | :01:02. | :01:06. | |
abhorrent abuse of scientific discovery and human imagination can | :01:07. | :01:10. | |
name its pride and pick the pockets of any other bodies in the MoD, | :01:11. | :01:14. | |
other parts of the servers are resourced or started on a white win. | :01:15. | :01:19. | |
The honourable member is very kind in giving way and I appreciate that | :01:20. | :01:22. | |
she was in Australia at the time and indeed acting in various episodes of | :01:23. | :01:28. | |
home and away but would she be aware that the CND during the 1970s was | :01:29. | :01:33. | |
largely funded by the KGB as has been proven and some of these | :01:34. | :01:36. | |
arguments that come out to sound a little hollow when they are made | :01:37. | :01:40. | |
with the Castlebar enemies. I think that is a very amusing intervention | :01:41. | :01:43. | |
given that I am mentally quoting from the MoD's so-called chief | :01:44. | :01:51. | |
executive. Really, comments about me. That is not worthy of this | :01:52. | :01:56. | |
place. The air crews that the Prime Minister wants in the Syrians guide | :01:57. | :02:03. | |
can't be sure of a reliable surprise of spare parts for their planes but | :02:04. | :02:07. | |
Trident will always have whatever it needs. In the midst of that mess, | :02:08. | :02:13. | |
there is actually another insult as the MoD outsources logistics and | :02:14. | :02:17. | |
supply for the Armed Forces to an American firm that started out | :02:18. | :02:22. | |
providing advice to the American defence industry. Those of us who | :02:23. | :02:24. | |
campaigned in the independence referendum will recall being told | :02:25. | :02:28. | |
that no vital pieces of defence infrastructure are provided by | :02:29. | :02:30. | |
companies from outwith your borders. How things change and yet stay so | :02:31. | :02:37. | |
much the same. We might want to take note of the legal position as well. | :02:38. | :02:43. | |
My constituent, Lord Murray, a former Lord Advocate for Scotland | :02:44. | :02:47. | |
and a respected legal figure has offered the opinion that nuclear | :02:48. | :02:49. | |
weapons are illegal under international law. In light of what | :02:50. | :02:57. | |
the honourable member was saying about Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Lord | :02:58. | :03:01. | |
Murray was a serving soldier preparing to attack Japanese | :03:02. | :03:05. | |
positions when the first atomic bomb was dropped in Hiroshima 70 years | :03:06. | :03:09. | |
ago and he thinks that may well have saved his life. However, he formed | :03:10. | :03:13. | |
the opinion then in spite of the preservation of his own life, that | :03:14. | :03:16. | |
the weapon is probably illegal and his opinion has not changed in the | :03:17. | :03:21. | |
seven deadly sins. He suggests that the International Court of Justice | :03:22. | :03:23. | |
might use the occasion of the case being brought by the Marshall | :03:24. | :03:36. | |
Islands to update and enhance its 1996 ruling. In 1996, the ICJ ruled | :03:37. | :03:39. | |
that the use or the threat of use of nuclear weapons was illegal and it | :03:40. | :03:42. | |
may well decide now to rule that the possession of these weapons is | :03:43. | :03:44. | |
illegal. The Government might not wish to take any note of legal | :03:45. | :03:50. | |
advice on military issues some previous governments have indeed | :03:51. | :03:53. | |
shown a reluctance to take such advice do, but surely ministers will | :03:54. | :03:56. | |
not wish to ignore the effects on other areas of defence spending that | :03:57. | :04:00. | |
communes Trident would have. They don't have to listen to us. They can | :04:01. | :04:04. | |
speak to the official that the MoD. Cancelling Trident would be very | :04:05. | :04:08. | |
good for their sleep patterns. The combined effects of spending cuts | :04:09. | :04:12. | |
and the blind insistence on spending huge sums on a virility Tilton would | :04:13. | :04:18. | |
leave poorly equipped front-line service personnel even worse off. I | :04:19. | :04:22. | |
would certainly hope the Government would have the decency to consider | :04:23. | :04:23. | |
them. Thank you very much, Madam them. Thank you very much, Madam | :04:24. | :04:30. | |
Deputy Speaker. I was concerned with this debate today when I saw that it | :04:31. | :04:33. | |
was one sentence, that this house believes that Trident should not be | :04:34. | :04:36. | |
renewed. There is not much substance behind that and as the debate has | :04:37. | :04:39. | |
gone on this it worries me more me more and more. We're deserted beach | :04:40. | :04:43. | |
which talks about whether Trident may be legal or not. That is a | :04:44. | :04:46. | |
matter for a legal debate, but the fact is, Madam Deputy is bigger, it | :04:47. | :04:50. | |
exists. Nuclear weapons exist. I will give away. Does my honourable | :04:51. | :04:56. | |
friend think that there are so many nations that have already been | :04:57. | :05:01. | |
mentioned that have nuclear deterrents that nobody has looked | :05:02. | :05:07. | |
into this? Maybe the honourable lady should admit she is perhaps wrong or | :05:08. | :05:11. | |
it is a personal interpretation. As my honourable friend makes clear | :05:12. | :05:16. | |
their, a lot of legal advice on issues like this are interpretation, | :05:17. | :05:19. | |
but I think the point I want to come to you is that we can't worry our | :05:20. | :05:23. | |
head in the sand and say we are not going to be involved with something | :05:24. | :05:27. | |
which exists. The fact is a nuclear threat exists. I am afraid he | :05:28. | :05:32. | |
doesn't appear to be still in his place, but the honourable gentleman | :05:33. | :05:37. | |
and myself went to Ukraine. We went to Kiev. This is after the Russian | :05:38. | :05:41. | |
intervention in that area and, as was mentioned earlier, it was made | :05:42. | :05:50. | |
clear that for unilateral disarmament, the borders of Ukraine | :05:51. | :05:54. | |
would be protected by the US and UK and the Russian Federation, and yet | :05:55. | :05:57. | |
when the Russian Federation Walton, there was nothing that could be | :05:58. | :06:02. | |
done. I just mentioned in a Foreign Office questions earlier today, the | :06:03. | :06:05. | |
world's attention may have shifted to the situation in the Middle East | :06:06. | :06:08. | |
and Syria, but there is a live war going on today in Ukraine and I hold | :06:09. | :06:16. | |
the US part responsible for that, because the weak foreign policy by | :06:17. | :06:20. | |
what I consider to be one of the worst presidents that the United | :06:21. | :06:23. | |
States has had, which allowed Russia to take strategic decisions and what | :06:24. | :06:27. | |
into countries like Ukraine, knowing that there was no deterrent to do | :06:28. | :06:32. | |
that and that is what this debate is about. It is about deterrent and my | :06:33. | :06:38. | |
honourable friend said you don't have a burglar alarm because you | :06:39. | :06:41. | |
want people to burgle your house, you have it as a deterrent and it is | :06:42. | :06:48. | |
incredible that any world which is so dangerous today that we have a | :06:49. | :06:55. | |
debate which would try to disarm was as if the rest of the world would | :06:56. | :07:02. | |
then fall into line. I will give way. I was intrigued by what you | :07:03. | :07:05. | |
were saying and following your logic about Russia invading Ukraine, given | :07:06. | :07:08. | |
that we have this deterrent, it surely hasn't worked there in | :07:09. | :07:15. | |
Russia, has it not? And grateful for the intervention because actually he | :07:16. | :07:19. | |
makes my point the other way. There was no deterrent to stop Russia | :07:20. | :07:24. | |
going into Ukraine because the present rightly recognised that | :07:25. | :07:28. | |
President Obama will not intervene into these international affairs. | :07:29. | :07:32. | |
There was no checks and balances, no counter weight to what has become a | :07:33. | :07:36. | |
new superpower and he just walked in and has been allowed to do so. Will | :07:37. | :07:42. | |
my friend recognise that Ukraine was persuaded to give up its nuclear | :07:43. | :07:47. | |
weapons? As a result, Putin has been able to rule Russia over | :07:48. | :07:50. | |
international agreement. I would come to this point, this debate | :07:51. | :07:57. | |
today is not about war mongering. It is not about a desire to launch | :07:58. | :08:02. | |
nuclear weapons. It is in fact the direct opposite of that. It is about | :08:03. | :08:07. | |
the fact that a nuclear deterrent has stopped major world conflicts | :08:08. | :08:14. | |
and today we see there are conflicts taking place in these countries and | :08:15. | :08:23. | |
when we talk about the threat of perhaps Daesh getting their hands on | :08:24. | :08:26. | |
nuclear weapons or North Korea who would be able to launch an attack on | :08:27. | :08:30. | |
South Korea, let's not forget there was never a peace treaty between | :08:31. | :08:33. | |
North Korea and South Korea. Technically, they are still at work, | :08:34. | :08:37. | |
but they been able to face each other off with conventional weapons | :08:38. | :08:43. | |
from the last decade which, if that didn't track within nuclear | :08:44. | :08:47. | |
Western intervention on South Korea Western intervention on South Korea | :08:48. | :08:50. | |
to make sure that it can counteract that threat from North Korea. | :08:51. | :08:55. | |
Otherwise, there will be hundreds of thousands of innocent people | :08:56. | :09:00. | |
murdered. By a regime with no other intention than just wanting to wipe | :09:01. | :09:06. | |
out its neighbour. That is what a deterrent prevents, Madam Deputy | :09:07. | :09:09. | |
Speaker. That is why this debate is so important, because nobody in this | :09:10. | :09:18. | |
room in Nato, nobody in the Western world, probably not even President | :09:19. | :09:22. | |
Putin, would want to use nuclear weapons. That is not what this | :09:23. | :09:26. | |
debate is about. But it is about making sure that when something | :09:27. | :09:31. | |
exists that those enemies who would use it don't have the opportunity to | :09:32. | :09:36. | |
use it because they know it would be pointless. They know it would not | :09:37. | :09:41. | |
lead to anything. North Korea will not launch an nuclear weapons on | :09:42. | :09:45. | |
South Korea if it knows that ten seconds later it will disappear off | :09:46. | :09:50. | |
the face of the map as well. That, however unpalatable that truth may | :09:51. | :09:53. | |
be, that is the truth would have kept the peace. And if we look at | :09:54. | :09:57. | |
the First World War and then we look at the Second World War, fought with | :09:58. | :10:01. | |
conventional weapons, but the death toll in those third years was far | :10:02. | :10:06. | |
higher and far more civilians killed in the Second World War than the | :10:07. | :10:12. | |
First World War and as technology advances, as the war is increased, | :10:13. | :10:16. | |
you notice that civilian population dies more and more. It was | :10:17. | :10:22. | |
noticeable that when my right honourable friend the Prime Minister | :10:23. | :10:25. | |
stood in that dispatch box earlier this week, he made it absolutely | :10:26. | :10:31. | |
clear that military action which may be considered in Syria is being | :10:32. | :10:35. | |
considered as part of a wider programme with targeted intervention | :10:36. | :10:43. | |
to try and stop civilian death. Western leaders today spend most of | :10:44. | :10:48. | |
their time trying to work out how we can intervene by reducing civilian | :10:49. | :10:51. | |
deaths and there is nothing better to reduce a civilian death if you | :10:52. | :10:55. | |
know that the Government who may be pushing their people into this work | :10:56. | :10:59. | |
knows that they themselves would be wiped out. And that is hugely | :11:00. | :11:02. | |
important in this area. There has been a lot of talk about | :11:03. | :11:14. | |
whether it is the right thing to spend the money on. It amounts to is | :11:15. | :11:20. | |
euro .2% of GDP. I question in this house what would award, even with | :11:21. | :11:30. | |
conventional weapons do to the GDP production of Europe and the Western | :11:31. | :11:36. | |
world? Would also like to reflect on the fact that the 31 billion is | :11:37. | :11:40. | |
rather less than the debt interest payment we have to make as a legacy | :11:41. | :11:47. | |
from the last government? I perhaps do not want to get too skewed into | :11:48. | :11:53. | |
other debates today, but he sees a very important issue. He makes an | :11:54. | :11:58. | |
important comment. We cannot have a solid defence in this country and we | :11:59. | :12:04. | |
cannot have a capable, Strategic Defence Review unless we have a | :12:05. | :12:08. | |
strong economy and that has to go hand in hand with this debate. In | :12:09. | :12:14. | |
summing up, none of us today want to renew Trident because we are | :12:15. | :12:18. | |
warmongers, we are the exact opposite. But we have to be aware of | :12:19. | :12:25. | |
the threat that exist in our world, threats we have to be capable of | :12:26. | :12:30. | |
responding to, but we hope we never do have to respond to. The proof of | :12:31. | :12:36. | |
the last 70 odd years has shut shown that even in the Cuban missile | :12:37. | :12:41. | |
crisis when President Kennedy said we are eyeball to eyeball, why did | :12:42. | :12:47. | |
the Russians back down? They knew it would mean unilateral destruction of | :12:48. | :12:50. | |
their own country as well as the country they were attacking. No | :12:51. | :12:55. | |
matter how unpalatable the renewal of Trident may be, it works. This is | :12:56. | :13:05. | |
a matter of profound national importance and is a debate about the | :13:06. | :13:10. | |
security of our nation and about the standing of our nation amongst our | :13:11. | :13:15. | |
allies and in the eyes of our adversaries. The history of our | :13:16. | :13:19. | |
position as a nuclear power stems from our desire to protect ourselves | :13:20. | :13:23. | |
and to not shy away from our responsibilities globally. We must | :13:24. | :13:28. | |
acknowledge the historically critical role the Labour Party has | :13:29. | :13:33. | |
played in the development of the United Kingdom's independent nuclear | :13:34. | :13:38. | |
deterrent. It is important to recognise the Secretary of State's | :13:39. | :13:43. | |
call for consensus on this, which I welcome. It was Clement Attlee who | :13:44. | :13:48. | |
began the preliminary work that paved the way for an independent, | :13:49. | :13:55. | |
nuclear deterrent in 1945. It was in October, 1946, that the Labour | :13:56. | :14:01. | |
Foreign Secretary pushed ahead with plans for our own system, Ernie | :14:02. | :14:07. | |
Bevin. Let me join him in praising Clement Attlee who fought with | :14:08. | :14:11. | |
courage and the First World War and does he not think that his own | :14:12. | :14:14. | |
former leader would have looked at the nuclear Alliance and would have | :14:15. | :14:21. | |
thought, if you seek peace, prepare for war as the Roman said. I | :14:22. | :14:27. | |
absolutely agree with that. He invented it and he would agree with | :14:28. | :14:36. | |
it. As an individual I welcome that. One of the reasons it is important | :14:37. | :14:40. | |
for me is that my constituency of Barrow-in-Furness has always been at | :14:41. | :14:44. | |
the heart of our independent deterrent and it is a source of | :14:45. | :14:49. | |
immense pride in Cumbria. Not only this, but I was elected very clearly | :14:50. | :14:54. | |
on a clear manifesto commitment and so were my colleagues which reads, | :14:55. | :14:58. | |
Labour remains committed to a minimum, credible, independent | :14:59. | :15:04. | |
nuclear capability. The honourable gentleman mentioned Nato and the | :15:05. | :15:11. | |
principle of maintaining an independent deterrent is | :15:12. | :15:13. | |
demonstrated through our commitment to our Nato allies. I thank my | :15:14. | :15:21. | |
honourable friend and have actually visited the Barrow ship yard and | :15:22. | :15:26. | |
understand his passion to the workforce and his commitment to the | :15:27. | :15:30. | |
project. But is it not also the case that not only did major Attlee | :15:31. | :15:33. | |
support the nuclear deterrent, but also figures from the left of the | :15:34. | :15:37. | |
left of them look Labour Party, including Nye Bevan who said we | :15:38. | :15:40. | |
should not walk naked into the conference chamber? I could not put | :15:41. | :15:48. | |
it better. It is one of our party's greatest achievements and that | :15:49. | :15:50. | |
should be recognised at every opportunity. Can I thank my | :15:51. | :15:55. | |
honourable friend for her steadfast support for the industry and for the | :15:56. | :16:01. | |
deterrent. She knows what this means to the manufacturing sector in her | :16:02. | :16:04. | |
constituency. I thank you for giving way. To bring things into a more | :16:05. | :16:12. | |
modern context, does the honourable member agree with one of my | :16:13. | :16:16. | |
constituency predecessors, Lord Browne, a former Defence Secretary, | :16:17. | :16:23. | |
who today drew attention to the US report which basically says nuclear | :16:24. | :16:31. | |
weapons going forward are as much at risk from cyber threat and they | :16:32. | :16:36. | |
might be useless for deployment because of cyber attacks. You deploy | :16:37. | :16:41. | |
them and you cannot use them. No, I do not agree with that. The most | :16:42. | :16:49. | |
recent strategic concept from Nato reaffirmed that as long as nuclear | :16:50. | :16:54. | |
weapons are in the world, Nato will remain a nuclear Alliance. It | :16:55. | :17:00. | |
remains a core element of Nato strategy. I need to make some | :17:01. | :17:07. | |
progress. The security of the allies is provided by the strategic, | :17:08. | :17:12. | |
nuclear forces of the Alliance and we have to recognise the United | :17:13. | :17:19. | |
Kingdom. We must maintain these relationships in regard to our Nato | :17:20. | :17:25. | |
relationship, and we must maintain an independent nuclear deterrent. | :17:26. | :17:29. | |
Whilst other nations have nuclear weapons, so should we. This is not | :17:30. | :17:35. | |
about bravado or a one-upmanship, or a virility kind of test, it is a | :17:36. | :17:40. | |
demonstration of strength and capability which provides our | :17:41. | :17:46. | |
deterrent. Only the most naive would claim that this is fully diminished. | :17:47. | :17:50. | |
Whilst there are other nuclear weapons in the world, the only | :17:51. | :17:55. | |
effective nuclear deterrent is found in maintaining our own independent, | :17:56. | :18:01. | |
nuclear weapons. Unilateralism will never work and this party has tested | :18:02. | :18:06. | |
that theory to destruction. Only a multinational approach can rid the | :18:07. | :18:09. | |
world of nuclear missiles. The fact of the matter is that in our country | :18:10. | :18:17. | |
we have managed to maintain our deterrent whilst reducing our | :18:18. | :18:20. | |
warheads. That should be acknowledged and celebrated. We are | :18:21. | :18:27. | |
the only major, advanced, nuclear country to have demonstrated that. | :18:28. | :18:31. | |
We cannot disregard the economics. Those well versed in history of | :18:32. | :18:36. | |
military and civil engineering will understand the benefits of this to | :18:37. | :18:43. | |
my constituency. The expertise in Copland and Barrow-in-Furness has | :18:44. | :18:48. | |
cemented our leadership in the world and has provided a basis for jobs. | :18:49. | :18:58. | |
It has attracted vast private investment. This position as world | :18:59. | :19:05. | |
leaders has been hard earned principally by my honourable friend | :19:06. | :19:08. | |
from Barrow-in-Furness and I, but hard earned through decades of work | :19:09. | :19:13. | |
in the nuclear industry maintaining these skills and expertise, which is | :19:14. | :19:17. | |
crucial to economic well-being and growth to my constituency and by | :19:18. | :19:22. | |
county and the north-west of England. Trident replacement is | :19:23. | :19:28. | |
forecast to generate as many as 26,000 jobs and 6000 will be based | :19:29. | :19:32. | |
in Barrow-in-Furness. The livelihoods of many of those in the | :19:33. | :19:37. | |
south of my constituency depend on the renewal of Trident. We heard | :19:38. | :19:44. | |
from the Secretary of State that the GMB has described this as pie in the | :19:45. | :19:48. | |
sky, but they have yet to put forward a comprehensive plan. We | :19:49. | :19:54. | |
have to take into account the impact on smaller companies that make up | :19:55. | :19:58. | |
the supply chain. The update to Parliament in February said there | :19:59. | :20:04. | |
were over 850 potential suppliers over the UK and it is a significant | :20:05. | :20:11. | |
national undertaking that draws on innovation, design and engineering | :20:12. | :20:16. | |
skills available in the UK and provides employment opportunities | :20:17. | :20:20. | |
for apprentices, trainees and graduates in a wide range of | :20:21. | :20:25. | |
technical and other disciplines. The expertise and the innovation all | :20:26. | :20:28. | |
have their birthplace in west and south-west Cumbria. There are | :20:29. | :20:36. | |
benefits for thousands of graduates, apprenticeships and trainees. | :20:37. | :20:40. | |
Opponents of the renewal will make the case that skills can be deployed | :20:41. | :20:43. | |
in other industries without making clear what these other industries | :20:44. | :20:52. | |
are. In fact, the proponents of diversification have had nearly four | :20:53. | :20:57. | |
decades to come up with a plan to demonstrate how diversification | :20:58. | :21:00. | |
would work and they still have not done it because there is no plan and | :21:01. | :21:05. | |
there never will be a plan. We have to approach the world as we find it, | :21:06. | :21:11. | |
not how we want it to be. To vote against renewal is to put thousands | :21:12. | :21:16. | |
of people out of work and to waste knowledge and expertise, to neglect | :21:17. | :21:22. | |
our duties to our allies, to diminish our ability to defend | :21:23. | :21:25. | |
ourselves and to diminish our standing in the world. Britain has | :21:26. | :21:29. | |
punched above its weight for centuries. We are a global leader | :21:30. | :21:34. | |
and we should never step back from this responsibility. I find myself | :21:35. | :21:39. | |
today in a position where I am proud to support my constituents, my | :21:40. | :21:45. | |
constituency, my country and Labour Party policy in the best traditions | :21:46. | :21:50. | |
of Clement Attlee. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I write this | :21:51. | :21:56. | |
afternoon in support of renewal of the Trident nuclear deterrent, but | :21:57. | :22:01. | |
before I do that, can I pay tribute to those Labour MPs who have put | :22:02. | :22:06. | |
party politics to one side and I'm thinking very much of the British | :22:07. | :22:10. | |
national interest. There is no member of Parliament more valiant in | :22:11. | :22:14. | |
that cause than the member for Barrow-in-Furness, who has been a | :22:15. | :22:19. | |
shining example of what it looks like to stand up for your | :22:20. | :22:23. | |
constituents, to fight for the local economy that you represent and to | :22:24. | :22:26. | |
ensure the arguments you passionately believe in are held not | :22:27. | :22:31. | |
just in this house, but throughout the country. Many of us could learn | :22:32. | :22:35. | |
from the work that the honourable member does on this important | :22:36. | :22:41. | |
matter. Can I say that I grew up on the Clyde coast, not 1 million miles | :22:42. | :22:45. | |
away from Faslane. I went to school in Dumbarton, very close to Faslane. | :22:46. | :22:54. | |
I know very much how important Faslane is to the local economy of | :22:55. | :23:00. | |
that area. With over 8000 jobs that will be there by 2020, that is the | :23:01. | :23:05. | |
engine of that part of Scotland. It is by far the largest employer in | :23:06. | :23:10. | |
that part of Scotland. I will give way. There are in fact many jobs | :23:11. | :23:18. | |
associated with HM Naval base Clyde and these jobs are support staff, | :23:19. | :23:22. | |
staff in accommodation and local businesses. They would still be | :23:23. | :23:29. | |
there if there were conventional warships based in Faslane. I admire | :23:30. | :23:36. | |
the honourable lady's optimism, but if we are being told there will be | :23:37. | :23:40. | |
8200 jobs, and increase as a result of the work of moving the submarines | :23:41. | :23:47. | |
up there, if she honestly believes there will be that level of jobs | :23:48. | :23:54. | |
directly and even more indirectly and an independent Scotland would | :23:55. | :24:00. | |
have glorified fishery protection vessels, they could be anywhere... I | :24:01. | :24:05. | |
will not give way. That is what we are talking about. It is misleading | :24:06. | :24:10. | |
at best to the people of Dumbarton show to save those number of jobs | :24:11. | :24:15. | |
and those qualities and those skills will be there without a nuclear | :24:16. | :24:20. | |
deterrent. Does the honourable gentleman believe the people of | :24:21. | :24:23. | |
Argyll and Bute and the people of Dumbarton are so unaware of the | :24:24. | :24:27. | |
circumstances in which they live that day at the general election | :24:28. | :24:31. | |
could not have worked that out themselves? Had they not believe | :24:32. | :24:35. | |
what we were saying, I would not have been collected and Norwood my | :24:36. | :24:42. | |
honourable friend for Dumbarton. Elections are always referendums on | :24:43. | :24:47. | |
the future. We spent a day together on Thursday going round the aircraft | :24:48. | :24:52. | |
carriers. Can I say to my honourable friend that if you were to take HMS | :24:53. | :24:57. | |
Clyde out of the equation and Coulport and Faslane out of the | :24:58. | :25:01. | |
equation and the skills and high-paid jobs, his constituency | :25:02. | :25:05. | |
would be a poorer place as a result. I want to make progress. The | :25:06. | :25:11. | |
independent nuclear deterrent is vital for the future of this country | :25:12. | :25:15. | |
and for our manufacturing base, our skills base, apprenticeships. I have | :25:16. | :25:21. | |
got constituents at BAE Systems who will be working on the programme, | :25:22. | :25:27. | |
engineers and apprentices who are looking forward to working on that. | :25:28. | :25:32. | |
The length of the United Kingdom will have people, men and women, | :25:33. | :25:38. | |
young and old and apprenticeships across all skills bases who will be | :25:39. | :25:44. | |
dependent on the nuclear deterrent and the successor class programme. | :25:45. | :25:48. | |
We know that at our peril. You take the programme out of our proposal | :25:49. | :25:56. | |
and it is not the threat on national security, nor the devastating impact | :25:57. | :25:59. | |
it would have in places like HMS Clyde, it is the fact all of our | :26:00. | :26:03. | |
communities would suffer as a result. I would beg the Labour Party | :26:04. | :26:11. | |
to come to its senses when it comes to this matter. It should not be | :26:12. | :26:17. | |
down to independent minded, Labour MPs who passionately believe in | :26:18. | :26:19. | |
national security. It should Part of the Labour's defence review, | :26:20. | :26:30. | |
I hope, will come to appreciate the unique importance that Trident has, | :26:31. | :26:33. | |
that British national security cannot be put at risk. We cannot | :26:34. | :26:38. | |
hope for a safer #w0r8d, we have to work in order to secure it and | :26:39. | :26:44. | |
Trident is an integral part of that security -- safer world. And it is | :26:45. | :26:49. | |
very much, that deterrent. I hope the Labour Party will not let us | :26:50. | :26:54. | |
down when it comes to that crucial moment. But can I also put on record | :26:55. | :26:59. | |
my thanks to the Secretary of State and the team at the Ministry of | :27:00. | :27:04. | |
Defence, for yesterday they outlined in the defence and strategic review | :27:05. | :27:07. | |
how conventional forces would fit in with the future of our country. We | :27:08. | :27:11. | |
are not just reliant on Trident for our defence. Indeed, I do welcome | :27:12. | :27:13. | |
the anti-submarine warfare capability aircraft which were | :27:14. | :27:16. | |
announced yesterday, which will be based in Scotland and they will be | :27:17. | :27:19. | |
an integral part in looking after the deterrent. I will give way. Is | :27:20. | :27:25. | |
it not noticeable in the report published yesterday, that there were | :27:26. | :27:30. | |
no threats in Tier 1 for which Trident would be appropriate as a | :27:31. | :27:35. | |
response? Well, we know, we live in an unpredictable world. In fact, the | :27:36. | :27:42. | |
key thing here is that every single Strategic Defence Review has almost | :27:43. | :27:45. | |
been redundant by the time the you I think was dry on the paper. No-one | :27:46. | :27:51. | |
recalled the so-called Arab Spring at the time of the last review or | :27:52. | :27:58. | |
the resurgent Russia. We have to look at the threats, regardless what | :27:59. | :28:02. | |
they may look like and it is never at a time of our choosing. But, the | :28:03. | :28:05. | |
importance of conventional weapons at the heart of our defence is | :28:06. | :28:11. | |
absolutely fightal. That's why yesterday the Government outlined | :28:12. | :28:14. | |
across all the three services, a very, very clear strategy to ensure | :28:15. | :28:19. | |
that conventional weapons and modernisation of our Armed Forces | :28:20. | :28:22. | |
was integral within that, but they would not be as effective if the UK | :28:23. | :28:27. | |
were to be stripped, unilateral of our nuclear deterrent because | :28:28. | :28:31. | |
ultimately, it is the ween we all hope and pray -- it is the weapon we | :28:32. | :28:36. | |
all hope and pray will never, ever be used but the very in fact we have | :28:37. | :28:41. | |
it, sends out a very powerful message to any potential | :28:42. | :28:45. | |
adversaries, that the UK takes our security seriously. The UK takes its | :28:46. | :28:49. | |
defence seriously. The UK will defend its allies within Nato and we | :28:50. | :28:55. | |
are not a country, Madame Deputy Speaker, who can sit back and hope | :28:56. | :28:59. | |
that someone else will secure our future for us. Whenever we have done | :29:00. | :29:02. | |
that in the past, we have sometimes been found to be wanting. The United | :29:03. | :29:07. | |
Kingdom must always, always look after its own defence and, Madame | :29:08. | :29:12. | |
Deputy Speaker, I hope that Trident and its successor class submarines | :29:13. | :29:16. | |
will always be at the heart of that U thank you very much. | :29:17. | :29:22. | |
-- thank you very much. Alistair car mikele Thank you Madame | :29:23. | :29:32. | |
Deputy Speaker, can I thaung for the thank you for the opportunity to | :29:33. | :29:39. | |
take place in this debate. It is a debate that the House hasn't given | :29:40. | :29:43. | |
sufficient time to in recent years, although we know it is an issue we | :29:44. | :29:48. | |
have to address and for any Government business managers, for | :29:49. | :29:51. | |
future purpose, the House would be better served by more substantial | :29:52. | :29:55. | |
moment in Government time, which may allow a wider consideration of the | :29:56. | :29:59. | |
challenges that face us. Inevitably, we are dealing here today with an | :30:00. | :30:04. | |
Opposition Day debate and I listened with very great care to the speech | :30:05. | :30:08. | |
of the honourable member for Argyll and Bute. It is rives remarkable, I | :30:09. | :30:12. | |
thought that -- it was quite remarkable, I thought that much of | :30:13. | :30:15. | |
his speech focussed on the position of the Labour Party, as it did on | :30:16. | :30:20. | |
the Government. That's a novel position for an Opposition Day | :30:21. | :30:24. | |
debate. But I have to say, in fairness, I'm not entirely without | :30:25. | :30:28. | |
sympathy for the approach, given the difficulties that there are in the | :30:29. | :30:38. | |
Labour Party. It's not that they lack a clear position, Madame Deputy | :30:39. | :30:41. | |
Speaker, I would suggest it is that they have too many clear positions | :30:42. | :30:45. | |
and it is difficult to reconcile them all within the party. I have | :30:46. | :30:51. | |
sympathy for them with the review they have under taken, I wish it | :30:52. | :30:55. | |
well. But I have to say, I have severe misgivings when I hear that | :30:56. | :30:58. | |
they have put Ken Livingstone in charge of it. Putting Ken | :30:59. | :31:02. | |
Livingstone in charge of a review of nuclear weaponry is a bit like | :31:03. | :31:08. | |
putting King Herod in charge of the nursery. But when it comes to this | :31:09. | :31:13. | |
review - I would say and I commend the honourable member for | :31:14. | :31:16. | |
Chesterfield for his contribution in the debant the manner in which he | :31:17. | :31:23. | |
did it - debate. The review could do worse than taking at starting point | :31:24. | :31:27. | |
the Trident review that was carried out at the instance of my party in | :31:28. | :31:31. | |
the last Government which looked at all the different number of | :31:32. | :31:34. | |
alternatives and different ways in which this question could be | :31:35. | :31:38. | |
approached. Of course I give way. I'm grateful to the honourable | :31:39. | :31:42. | |
gentleman for giving way. Perhaps he could clarify the stance within his | :31:43. | :31:50. | |
own party. A member in my constituency claimed that - who | :31:51. | :32:02. | |
represents his in his party claimed you didn't need to have it as it | :32:03. | :32:08. | |
wasn't used in the Falkland Islands. Maybe the honourable gentleman can | :32:09. | :32:15. | |
give clarification. I will not be responsible for referry member of my | :32:16. | :32:20. | |
party in every constituency, any more than the honourable lady would | :32:21. | :32:24. | |
for her party. I will come to my party's position in a second. I | :32:25. | :32:28. | |
think it is one that is central to the debate which I do wish to put in | :32:29. | :32:34. | |
record. If she wish to know it, she could have advantage of considering | :32:35. | :32:37. | |
the terms of the amendment which has been tabled but unfortunately has | :32:38. | :32:39. | |
not been selected for division today. It is worth remembering that | :32:40. | :32:42. | |
we are only having this debate because in fact the main gate | :32:43. | :32:46. | |
decision, which was to have been held in the last Parliament, or | :32:47. | :32:51. | |
taken in the last Parliament, was in fact delayed until this Parliament | :32:52. | :32:57. | |
and when the minister who is going to look at this debate, I would | :32:58. | :33:01. | |
invite him to accept that although his party wanted to take McMain gate | :33:02. | :33:08. | |
decision in the last Parliament, in fact, events would vindicate | :33:09. | :33:10. | |
decisions that were taken and this is the right point in the cycle in | :33:11. | :33:15. | |
which to be taking T Madame Deputy Speaker, we live in an ever-changing | :33:16. | :33:21. | |
and uncertain world. -- taking it. As the honourable member from El | :33:22. | :33:26. | |
Americas t I think, said earlier, we cannot ignore the in fact that | :33:27. | :33:32. | |
nuclear weapons exist. -- Elmet. I would be they could be uninp | :33:33. | :33:37. | |
vented but they are not. That's the basis on which we should approach | :33:38. | :33:41. | |
this debate. It is not just about whether they should be renewed or | :33:42. | :33:47. | |
not, it is what we, as the UK, as a permanent member of the United | :33:48. | :33:50. | |
Nations Security Council, can do to take a lead in the international | :33:51. | :33:53. | |
security and the nuclear power, to ensure that there is now a serious | :33:54. | :33:57. | |
movement towards multilateral new clear disarmament. This was a | :33:58. | :34:03. | |
formative debate, in my early political years, Madame Deputy | :34:04. | :34:06. | |
Speaker, as indeed I think it probably was for yourself in the | :34:07. | :34:11. | |
1987 general election but the world was a very different place in 1987. | :34:12. | :34:15. | |
The Cold War was still at its height. The Soviet Union still | :34:16. | :34:20. | |
existed. We have seen enormous change in that time, but the change | :34:21. | :34:25. | |
has not all been in one direction. You have only to look at the | :34:26. | :34:29. | |
situation in Ukraine and the Crimea, to realise in fact that these old | :34:30. | :34:34. | |
enmities never die. And it is not really pertinent to say what is a | :34:35. | :34:39. | |
Tier 1 or a tinchts er 2 risk at this point. It is what is going to | :34:40. | :34:44. | |
be the situation in the future. -- or Tier 2 risk. Having said all | :34:45. | :34:48. | |
that, I would still say that the Government's determination to pursue | :34:49. | :34:52. | |
a like-for-like replacement for Trident ignores the different world | :34:53. | :34:57. | |
in which we now live, and indeed it misses the opportunity that we have, | :34:58. | :35:02. | |
as a force for multilateral nuclear disarmament, to take a different | :35:03. | :35:06. | |
approach, to take a step down the nuclear ladder. And as a result | :35:07. | :35:12. | |
actually, as a nuclear power, to meet our obligations, under the | :35:13. | :35:16. | |
various nuclear nonproliferation treaties. The Secretary of State, | :35:17. | :35:20. | |
when he was addressing the House, spoke of what he has done to reduce | :35:21. | :35:25. | |
the number of nuclear warheads that are currently available for | :35:26. | :35:29. | |
deployment. And I commend him for that. He lamented the fact that this | :35:30. | :35:38. | |
has solace I had little response from other nuclear or | :35:39. | :35:41. | |
nuclear-aspiring countries. I have to say to him, that I suspect the | :35:42. | :35:45. | |
reason for that is because despite the reduction inform the number of | :35:46. | :35:50. | |
warheads, the Government continues to cling to the notion of continued | :35:51. | :35:56. | |
at-sea deterrent. I think the time has now come for a very long and | :35:57. | :36:00. | |
serious look to whether that remains a an appropriate way. The conclusion | :36:01. | :36:03. | |
my party has reached is that it is no longer necessary, it is no longer | :36:04. | :36:09. | |
appropriate and that is what we would like to see, the end to | :36:10. | :36:14. | |
continuous at-sea nuclear deterrents, whilst of course | :36:15. | :36:17. | |
maintaining our deterrent would allow us to take something of a lead | :36:18. | :36:25. | |
in taking the step down... If the how many wants to intervene, I will | :36:26. | :36:31. | |
take an intervention, I will not take sedentary chunteringing. We are | :36:32. | :36:34. | |
baffled about how this part-time deterrent would work. Why would it | :36:35. | :36:40. | |
save money? How would it stop the fist strike capability? And what | :36:41. | :36:43. | |
would they do when they were not deterring? If the honourable member | :36:44. | :36:48. | |
wishes to have a serious debate about this, then I'm well in the | :36:49. | :36:51. | |
market for that. He should understand that this is a legitimate | :36:52. | :36:56. | |
and substantial proposal which does command a lot of support amongst | :36:57. | :37:01. | |
many people hop understand and accept the need for nuclear weaponry | :37:02. | :37:05. | |
but who are prepared to look at how we use our position as a nuclear | :37:06. | :37:12. | |
power as a proponent of nuclear disarmament, rather than as | :37:13. | :37:19. | |
something which is... Well, before he continues, to finish, to shake | :37:20. | :37:24. | |
his head, he may well find his own review comes up to something very | :37:25. | :37:28. | |
similar to this. So, just be careful not to disparage today what you | :37:29. | :37:32. | |
might find in your manifesto tomorrow. Madame Deputy Speaker, | :37:33. | :37:41. | |
time I'm afraid is against me. It is unfortunate that this debate has | :37:42. | :37:44. | |
occasionally generated more heat than light, but it is an important | :37:45. | :37:48. | |
one that this House has to have. I suspect we shall be returning to it | :37:49. | :37:52. | |
in the months and years to come. When we do so, we shall do that on | :37:53. | :37:59. | |
the basis that this is our opportunity to be a a leading force. | :38:00. | :38:09. | |
In nuclear disarmament. Order, it is a lively debate. But we are running | :38:10. | :38:13. | |
out of time. After the next contribution, I will have to reduce | :38:14. | :38:17. | |
the time limit for backbench speeches to four minutes. | :38:18. | :38:22. | |
Dr Julian Lewis. Thank you very much Madame Deputy | :38:23. | :38:27. | |
Speaker for permission to speak to this debate. I apologise to the | :38:28. | :38:31. | |
House that because I was chairing a public session of the Defence Select | :38:32. | :38:35. | |
Committee, I could not be here for the opening speeches. And I have | :38:36. | :38:39. | |
deliberately refrained for making any interventions for that reason as | :38:40. | :38:46. | |
well. I must say that although the issue of strategic nuclear deterrent | :38:47. | :38:49. | |
is very divisive, I think there is one thing we can agree about, which | :38:50. | :38:54. | |
is that the calibre of the speeches on both sides of the House, and on | :38:55. | :39:00. | |
both sides of the argument, has been very high indeed. Now, if the | :39:01. | :39:07. | |
Chairman of the Defence Select Committee had to mirror the views of | :39:08. | :39:11. | |
the members of that committee, I would spend probably just over 90% | :39:12. | :39:16. | |
of my time arguing passionately in favour of the nuclear deterrent and | :39:17. | :39:22. | |
just under 10% of my time arguing equally passionately against the new | :39:23. | :39:25. | |
clear deterrent because we have and are delighted to have on the Defence | :39:26. | :39:32. | |
Select Committee the honourable member for Dunfermline and West | :39:33. | :39:38. | |
Fife, who is a consistent and thoughtful opponent of Trident. | :39:39. | :39:42. | |
Fortunately, however, I do not have to mirror those views. The views I'm | :39:43. | :39:46. | |
expected to put forward are clearly marked. They are my own views, and | :39:47. | :39:51. | |
they have been pretty much the same for 35 years, half of them outside | :39:52. | :39:54. | |
this House and the remaining time inside this House. And it sometimes | :39:55. | :40:00. | |
comes as a bit of a surprise to people on my having been elected to | :40:01. | :40:03. | |
zap chair the Defence Select Committee, when they look at the | :40:04. | :40:09. | |
list of five people from the Labour Opposition who were kind enough to | :40:10. | :40:17. | |
nominate me to that role. One was the Shadow Armed Forces Minister, | :40:18. | :40:20. | |
the honourable gentleman for North Durham and that hardly comes as a | :40:21. | :40:26. | |
surprise. But at the other end of the spectrum I was fortunate enough | :40:27. | :40:32. | |
to enjoy the support of the President Leader of the Opposition, | :40:33. | :40:36. | |
and the reason for that was that we both agree on one thing, even though | :40:37. | :40:42. | |
our views are diametrically opposed from one another on whether we | :40:43. | :40:46. | |
should continue to have a nuclear deterrent, we both agree that both | :40:47. | :40:49. | |
sides of the case have a good argument to make and when you make | :40:50. | :40:53. | |
it on the floor of the House, everybody learns something. And, in | :40:54. | :41:00. | |
particular, with the support of the now Leader of the Opposition, on the | :41:01. | :41:05. | |
17th January 2013, I managed to secure the first full debate on the | :41:06. | :41:10. | |
whole issue of Trident and deterrents, in this main chamber, | :41:11. | :41:17. | |
since that vote on 14th March 2007, when the initial gate was approved. | :41:18. | :41:24. | |
I think that anybody that really wants to see both sides of the | :41:25. | :41:30. | |
intellectual argument at their best could do no better than to copy that | :41:31. | :41:34. | |
of that debate. I shall just pick out from it the five main military | :41:35. | :41:40. | |
arguments and I fear I won't have enough time to deal with the point | :41:41. | :41:46. | |
about cyber vulnerability, so I commend to the house the article in | :41:47. | :41:52. | |
the Guardian today and the comments by Doctor Franklin Miller, a leading | :41:53. | :41:58. | |
expert on the American nuclear systems and the holder of an | :41:59. | :42:01. | |
honorary knighthood from this country about why it is that there | :42:02. | :42:06. | |
is no question of the nuclear deterrent being connected in any way | :42:07. | :42:10. | |
to the Internet and in being anyway vulnerable. Also on the question of | :42:11. | :42:18. | |
tears. Tier two threats are often more dangerous than Tier one threats | :42:19. | :42:21. | |
and that is why the select committee has just published a report | :42:22. | :42:26. | |
challenging the utility of ranking frets in this way. Let me stick to | :42:27. | :42:30. | |
my few arguments and there is not much time for many. -- any detail, | :42:31. | :42:37. | |
unless anyone is kind enough to intervene. The first is the most | :42:38. | :42:42. | |
important, the future military threats and complex will be no more | :42:43. | :42:49. | |
predictable than those who have engulfed us throughout the 20th | :42:50. | :42:51. | |
century. That is the justification for preserving Armed Forces in peace | :42:52. | :43:04. | |
time. Does he agree a deterrent is probably our best defence? This | :43:05. | :43:09. | |
directly leads to what it is to say you are using Trident. Those of us | :43:10. | :43:13. | |
who believe that a position of a deadly weapon is the best method of | :43:14. | :43:19. | |
stopping people who possess similar ones against using it against you is | :43:20. | :43:24. | |
that Trident is in use every day of the week. And if ever the button had | :43:25. | :43:31. | |
to be pressed,, it would have totally failed in its purpose. Where | :43:32. | :43:42. | |
as democracies are reluctant to use nuclear weapon against non-nuclear | :43:43. | :43:46. | |
dictatorships, although they did in 1945 against Japan, the reverse is | :43:47. | :43:50. | |
not true. Let's consider what might have happened in 1982 if non-nuclear | :43:51. | :43:58. | |
Britain had been facing Argentina with just a few nuclear bombs. Would | :43:59. | :44:00. | |
we have been dared to use? The we have been dared to use? The | :44:01. | :44:16. | |
United Kingdom has played a important role. Democratic countries | :44:17. | :44:22. | |
without nuclear weapons have little choice but to either declare | :44:23. | :44:25. | |
themselves neutral and help for the best all rely on the nuclear | :44:26. | :44:34. | |
umbrella of their allies. We are a nuclear power already and it is hard | :44:35. | :44:39. | |
to defeat us conventionally, because of the English Channel. The fourth | :44:40. | :44:45. | |
argument is that because the United States is our closest ally, if the | :44:46. | :44:49. | |
continent of Europe were ever occupied and the nuclear forces of | :44:50. | :44:55. | |
the United States had not been used, and enemy might feel that they could | :44:56. | :45:01. | |
attack us with nuclear weapons. For those who say that there are nuclear | :45:02. | :45:08. | |
deterrent in the hands of the Americans, what would he make of | :45:09. | :45:13. | |
every Prime Minister having to write a letter about every submarine, | :45:14. | :45:17. | |
which he hasn't seen? He is absolutely right. The Trident | :45:18. | :45:23. | |
nuclear system is entirely autonomous and nothing, not the | :45:24. | :45:28. | |
Americans or any form of cyber bug can possibly intervene if, heaven | :45:29. | :45:35. | |
forbid, the worst happened and the United Kingdom were attacked in part | :45:36. | :45:41. | |
or in whole and the submarine commander had to open that dread | :45:42. | :45:45. | |
letter, which the Prime Minister has written. And the fifth and final of | :45:46. | :45:51. | |
the military argument is my most important of all. And that is the | :45:52. | :45:55. | |
one I put two people who try and say, well, you're inflicting cuts on | :45:56. | :46:04. | |
our conventional capability. There is no quantity of conventional | :46:05. | :46:10. | |
forces which can compensate for the military disadvantage that faces a | :46:11. | :46:14. | |
non-nuclear country in a war against a nuclear armed enemy. The atomic | :46:15. | :46:20. | |
bombing of Japan is the perfect example, because the emperor was | :46:21. | :46:24. | |
forced soon surrender, but also because what might have happened | :46:25. | :46:29. | |
under the reversed scenario. -- forced to surrender. If Joe van -- | :46:30. | :46:37. | |
Japan had developed nuclear weapons and the allies hadn't... I | :46:38. | :46:47. | |
congratulate the SNP on having given us this opportunity today. Can I | :46:48. | :46:53. | |
make it clear at the beginning that during the Cold War period, I was a | :46:54. | :47:01. | |
multi-naturalist. I have no moral objections to nuclear weapons of | :47:02. | :47:14. | |
nuclear power. -- multi-. Naturalist. Time has moved on and we | :47:15. | :47:23. | |
live in a different world nowadays. There are two arguments put forward | :47:24. | :47:28. | |
as to why the UK should have a independent nuclear deterrent. I | :47:29. | :47:33. | |
have to say, in my opinion, both of them are myths. The first myth is | :47:34. | :47:37. | |
that the system is independent, it is not. The UK has for nuclear | :47:38. | :47:43. | |
submarines, each can carry up to eight missiles. Each missile can | :47:44. | :47:47. | |
carry up to five nuclear warheads. The UK does not own the missiles. It | :47:48. | :47:56. | |
loans them from America, where they are made and maintained and tested. | :47:57. | :48:01. | |
They had to go to a naval base in Georgia to have the missiles fitted. | :48:02. | :48:06. | |
It is said that we have operational independence. Well, that is also a | :48:07. | :48:12. | |
myth. Because does anybody seriously believe that the UK could deploy and | :48:13. | :48:18. | |
use nuclear weapons anywhere in the world without the approval of the | :48:19. | :48:23. | |
Americans? I don't believe that. Well... Well, let those who believe | :48:24. | :48:34. | |
it make their arguments. I don't. The second... The second myth is | :48:35. | :48:40. | |
that if the United Kingdom did not have nuclear weapons, that | :48:41. | :48:49. | |
somehow... I will. I am very grateful. He states as a matter of | :48:50. | :48:54. | |
fact that he asserts that it is a myth. Can he substantiate why he | :48:55. | :48:58. | |
thinks what we on this side of the house say is independent in | :48:59. | :49:05. | |
operational terms, why it is a myth, apart from just spouting something | :49:06. | :49:11. | |
that has been used by Labour Party members without substantiation. -- | :49:12. | :49:20. | |
multi-lateralist. The last time the UK acted with Israel and the Suez | :49:21. | :49:30. | |
Canal, if they read the memoirs of Harold Macmillan, he made it | :49:31. | :49:35. | |
perfectly clear that the Americans said we had to leave the Suez Canal | :49:36. | :49:40. | |
and end our military action. If they didn't, they would bankrupt the | :49:41. | :49:44. | |
country. If the honourable member feels that the Americans would quite | :49:45. | :49:48. | |
happily let us go and deploy our nuclear weapons and use them, he | :49:49. | :49:53. | |
can't believe that. I don't. Move on. The second... I will. Thank you. | :49:54. | :50:00. | |
I think he makes an extremely good point. Should the British public | :50:01. | :50:05. | |
sleep soundly in their beds, knowing that in a few years' time, when it | :50:06. | :50:11. | |
comes to our nuclear weapons, Donald might hold the trump card? The | :50:12. | :50:18. | |
second myth, I believe, which has been argued to date, that is often | :50:19. | :50:25. | |
put around is that if the UK didn't have nuclear weapons, it would lose | :50:26. | :50:29. | |
its place on the UN Security Council. Of course, that is another | :50:30. | :50:34. | |
nonsense. Because when the security council was formed, only one of the | :50:35. | :50:38. | |
five permanent members had nuclear weapons. That was America. None of | :50:39. | :50:46. | |
the others did. This country, like all other developed countries, does | :50:47. | :50:52. | |
face threats with security from rogue states, international | :50:53. | :50:55. | |
terrorist groups and from groups within our own society who want to | :50:56. | :51:01. | |
destroy it. In my opinion, these threats are best met by our | :51:02. | :51:06. | |
membership of Nato. The most successful mutual defence pact in | :51:07. | :51:10. | |
history, which had never attacked anybody between the time it was set | :51:11. | :51:16. | |
up in 1948 until the ending of the Cold War. The tragedy of Nato was | :51:17. | :51:22. | |
that after the Cold War, it became not a mutual defence pact, but the | :51:23. | :51:27. | |
world's placement. That has caused enormous problems within member | :51:28. | :51:34. | |
countries of Nato. The way of dealing with threats from domestic | :51:35. | :51:39. | |
terrorism is by having a fully staffed, fully financed security | :51:40. | :51:46. | |
service. By ensuring that the police have money to do the job. They need | :51:47. | :51:56. | |
to do. And by ensuring that our own conventional forces are given the | :51:57. | :52:00. | |
tools of the job when they are sent into military conflicts on our | :52:01. | :52:07. | |
behalf. And let me make this point. We've witnessed in this country | :52:08. | :52:12. | |
terrible terrorist atrocities. The London bombings. Did our ownership | :52:13. | :52:18. | |
of nuclear weapons do anything to prevent that? We have seen at the | :52:19. | :52:25. | |
weekend what happened in Paris. The terrible attacks in Paris. But | :52:26. | :52:32. | |
France is a nuclear power. France does have a nuclear deterrent. But | :52:33. | :52:39. | |
did their ownership of their nuclear deterrent deter the terrorist groups | :52:40. | :52:43. | |
who carried out the atrocities in Paris? I am not convinced that we | :52:44. | :52:54. | |
should spend a huge sum of money on renewing our own nuclear deterrent, | :52:55. | :52:59. | |
which as I have already said, in my opinion, is not independent. I | :53:00. | :53:03. | |
believe that very strongly indeed, that we should be members of Nato. I | :53:04. | :53:10. | |
believe also that members of Nato should not be averse to contributing | :53:11. | :53:16. | |
to the nuclear umbrella that America provides. I would have no objection | :53:17. | :53:24. | |
to it, but the idea somehow that we should have a so-called independent | :53:25. | :53:27. | |
nuclear deterrent, I believe, just doesn't stack up. Yesterday's | :53:28. | :53:38. | |
national-security strategy indicated that the future of arrangements and | :53:39. | :53:48. | |
continued reliance remains at its heart. I will content in these | :53:49. | :53:54. | |
contribution that they do not serve Scotland at all. The costing over | :53:55. | :54:03. | |
the lifetime is ?167 billion. These are expensive weapons. It is a | :54:04. | :54:10. | |
status symbol for the United Kingdom, as opposed to a military | :54:11. | :54:18. | |
weapon, I would argue. Today, we have successive Westminster | :54:19. | :54:23. | |
governments who are obsessed with keeping a system for the next | :54:24. | :54:27. | |
generation. Submarines equipped with missiles for the sole purpose of | :54:28. | :54:33. | |
destroying an entire city indiscriminately and every living | :54:34. | :54:36. | |
person in it, this cannot be legitimate. They are not weapons of | :54:37. | :54:42. | |
war. We do not live in a time when our security is strengthened by | :54:43. | :54:47. | |
these. It is not something that defends us. In the past few weeks, | :54:48. | :54:53. | |
we have seen the evil but hate groups can bring to our doorsteps. | :54:54. | :54:59. | |
These splinter networks, are formidable to take on. I would argue | :55:00. | :55:04. | |
this is where we should take action. And pooling of resources. Investment | :55:05. | :55:17. | |
of 1900 additional security services to counter the threat of espionage. | :55:18. | :55:21. | |
This is something we should be investing in. Commitment to the | :55:22. | :55:26. | |
threat against cyber attacks. And to take it as seriously as any | :55:27. | :55:30. | |
conventional attack. And I welcome that in the statement yesterday. In | :55:31. | :55:36. | |
terms of conventional capacity, I want to see more investment in | :55:37. | :55:42. | |
several areas. Maritime patrol aircraft, these were taken away in | :55:43. | :55:47. | |
2010 and replaced and put in Lossiemouth where they should be to | :55:48. | :55:49. | |
defend our coasts. The UK contributes not to the | :55:50. | :56:03. | |
defence of alliance with the defence of these weapons, our strategic aim | :56:04. | :56:07. | |
if it is to work should be to compliment what our part nurse brick | :56:08. | :56:10. | |
to Nato and supporting the Nato convex on the way to achieve that. | :56:11. | :56:15. | |
The cost of the Trident update cannot be ignored, even for those | :56:16. | :56:23. | |
who accept the nuclear volume osity question without questions. | :56:24. | :56:32. | |
The cost of them, must be, surely, a level at which they cannot any more | :56:33. | :56:35. | |
be justified. I'm grateful to the honourable | :56:36. | :56:38. | |
gentleman for giving way. I want to make sure that he understands that | :56:39. | :56:42. | |
there is nobody on this side of the House that would want to, if any | :56:43. | :56:49. | |
relish or delight, press that button but whilst foes and potential | :56:50. | :56:52. | |
enemies have t it is absolutely right and proper that we should have | :56:53. | :56:57. | |
an equal defence mechanism to ensure the security of the world. There are | :56:58. | :57:02. | |
lots of things that we can produce in the debate of pounds, shillings | :57:03. | :57:06. | |
and pence, the defence of the realm is not one. Two things I would say, | :57:07. | :57:11. | |
one, I don't accept the detesht argument which is why I'mering the | :57:12. | :57:15. | |
point I am. The question I'm putting to members here, perhaps looking at | :57:16. | :57:22. | |
it with an open mind is, r - is this necessary at any price when we are | :57:23. | :57:25. | |
taking away from conventional weapons. I put that out there as a | :57:26. | :57:30. | |
genuine question that has to be inaed. In the time I have left -- | :57:31. | :57:37. | |
that has to be asked. I'm conscious you were looking for some additional | :57:38. | :57:41. | |
time. But can I get this right to the honourable member. You welcome | :57:42. | :57:44. | |
the commitments yesterday for additional investment onnings in aal | :57:45. | :57:47. | |
security from this country that the SNP want to leave? So you'll take | :57:48. | :57:51. | |
the investment, you'll take the security and support but you want to | :57:52. | :57:59. | |
leave this country and then today... ALL TALK AT ONCE If the honourable | :58:00. | :58:04. | |
member can remember, he can speaking through the Chair, I have no | :58:05. | :58:09. | |
interest in this debate, I have heard that reburk on numerous | :58:10. | :58:14. | |
occasions I'm happy to follow along and apologise to the Chair, the | :58:15. | :58:17. | |
honourable member has my point, and knows the point I'm making. You look | :58:18. | :58:22. | |
for national security, the want the investment from this national | :58:23. | :58:32. | |
Parliament but then an a la carte he wants an a la carte approach Madame | :58:33. | :58:36. | |
Deputy Speaker, I'm not prepared to play fast and loose with our | :58:37. | :58:40. | |
national security, neither should be honourable member. | :58:41. | :58:42. | |
I think I am grateful for that contribution. It'll surprise no-one | :58:43. | :58:48. | |
in this room all the same that I stand for SNP and independence, I | :58:49. | :58:51. | |
believe it is the best future for Scotland but I'm here to play a | :58:52. | :58:54. | |
constructive part in the security arrangements as long as Scotland is | :58:55. | :58:59. | |
part of the UK and I think it is a reasonable thing to do. I was going | :59:00. | :59:04. | |
to quote a Major who stated in the Guardian on 28th September, state | :59:05. | :59:08. | |
that the Trident nuclear weapon sows emat the should not be ringfenced | :59:09. | :59:14. | |
and the cost should be weighed up against new planes, tanks and | :59:15. | :59:18. | |
infantry. After my moral objection to the system, we need to look at | :59:19. | :59:22. | |
the forces. I will take one more. I'm very | :59:23. | :59:27. | |
grateful and his narrative stacks up, if you are in the realm of | :59:28. | :59:34. | |
debate of awe. It has to be this or that H -- realm of debate of "or." | :59:35. | :59:40. | |
At the moment, Madame Deputy Speaker, we are able to support our | :59:41. | :59:43. | |
conventional services as well as. Aren't we better, aren't we belter | :59:44. | :59:48. | |
to have two plugs in the bag, rather than just one? The point that was | :59:49. | :59:53. | |
raised is I don't think we are doing enough on the side of the | :59:54. | :59:57. | |
conventional. I think we should be doing more. Yesterday we saw | :59:58. | :00:00. | |
frigates being cut. I would like to see us going forward and | :00:01. | :00:02. | |
strengthening conventional forces. My point really to finish on is the | :00:03. | :00:12. | |
replacement of these weapons, as outlined in the National Security | :00:13. | :00:15. | |
Strategy, we should be investing in conventional forces, equipment and | :00:16. | :00:20. | |
intelligence and counterespionage and combatting cyber terrorism and | :00:21. | :00:25. | |
terrorism. I implore the House to consider what threats this weapons | :00:26. | :00:30. | |
system actually combats and support the rejection of Trident as a system | :00:31. | :00:40. | |
for replacement. Thank you. Ronnie Cowan Thank you, Madame Deputy | :00:41. | :00:47. | |
Speaker, Trident is a term often described used to describe the | :00:48. | :00:56. | |
nuclear's entire nuclear weapons. Each war head has eight times | :00:57. | :01:01. | |
capacity to kill and destroy. Each submarine has 16 missiles tubes | :01:02. | :01:07. | |
which makes it capable of carrying 192 warheads perves yeshlings 192, | :01:08. | :01:12. | |
times eight, if deployed as perhi orb marks equates to killing 61 | :01:13. | :01:17. | |
million people. Four submarines, that's gross 250 million deaths. Of | :01:18. | :01:24. | |
course it could be far worse than that. -- as per Hiroshima. For those | :01:25. | :01:32. | |
not killed. Starvation would follow. The UK Government is saying it is | :01:33. | :01:37. | |
prepared to inflict this fate on millions of innocent civilians if it | :01:38. | :01:41. | |
was deemed necessary Madam domety speaker, nobody can win a nuclear | :01:42. | :01:46. | |
war. An extreme of nuclear weapons to lead to a level devastation that | :01:47. | :01:51. | |
neither side could recover from. Indeed the planet would never | :01:52. | :01:54. | |
recover. I acknowledge we have imposed limits on the use of these | :01:55. | :01:58. | |
weapons which come as little comfort to the dead and dying. It is a | :01:59. | :02:05. | |
maximum 40 warheads, obviously sitting in the atmosphere of | :02:06. | :02:09. | |
Westminster playing war games, somebody decided 39 wasn't enough | :02:10. | :02:13. | |
and 41, well that would be plain barbaric. The only rational thought | :02:14. | :02:19. | |
that can justified the renewal of Trident, if one genuinely believed | :02:20. | :02:23. | |
the existence of Trident was in some way, shape or form was contributing | :02:24. | :02:28. | |
to a much more peaceful world. Since World War Two, the nuclear deterrent | :02:29. | :02:32. | |
hasn't stopped wars in Veet nap, Iraq, Afghanistan, the Falklands and | :02:33. | :02:36. | |
20 or 30 more I could list. -- Vietnam. It hasn't deterred | :02:37. | :02:41. | |
terrorist attacks in London, Tunisia, Mali, New York. If nuclear | :02:42. | :02:47. | |
weapons are inned adequate in preventing these wars, what threat | :02:48. | :02:51. | |
does it address and who does it deter? -- are not adequate. The | :02:52. | :02:57. | |
honourable gentleman's argument is like saying that just because the | :02:58. | :03:05. | |
antidote to one deadly disease, is ineffective against other deadly | :03:06. | :03:07. | |
disease, you shouldn't have T We use time, enknewity fighting | :03:08. | :03:17. | |
deadly diseases, instead of creating weapons of mass destruction, the | :03:18. | :03:20. | |
world would be a better place today. Quite right. The former Defence | :03:21. | :03:25. | |
Secretary, Des Browne, a former advisor to Parliament has said, and | :03:26. | :03:30. | |
it has become clear, for example, that the long-term threats have | :03:31. | :03:34. | |
emerged to which deterrents, nuclear or otherwise are not apolitical. | :03:35. | :03:38. | |
Michael Portillo has said our independent nuclear deterrent is not | :03:39. | :03:43. | |
independent and doesn't constitute a deterrent against anybody that we | :03:44. | :03:47. | |
regard as an enemy. It is a waste of money. I agree with the honourable | :03:48. | :03:53. | |
member from Reigate when he said the programme will consume more than | :03:54. | :03:57. | |
double the proportion of the defence budget of his predecessor. The price | :03:58. | :04:01. | |
required from the UK taxpayer and conventional forces is too high to | :04:02. | :04:05. | |
be rational or sensible. However, I am in the naive. I know that there | :04:06. | :04:10. | |
are dangers in the world, the sort of threats we need to address would | :04:11. | :04:18. | |
not be Plaicated by Trident. The UK Government has identified terrorism, | :04:19. | :04:21. | |
cybercrime, pandemics, natural disasters, foreign instability and | :04:22. | :04:23. | |
foreign conflicts as our primary risk in the next five years. Trident | :04:24. | :04:28. | |
will not solve any of these issues. In the meantime, Scotland's coasts | :04:29. | :04:32. | |
continues to be poorly guarded and our maritime reconnaissance is poor. | :04:33. | :04:36. | |
I'm aware that the UK. Government is finally committed to new maritime | :04:37. | :04:45. | |
patrol figures but the capability will remain not until 2020. And the | :04:46. | :04:52. | |
renewal of Trident has come at the expense of defence jobs in Scotland. | :04:53. | :04:59. | |
Cuts in Scotland have been measured to 29.7%. Compared to 11% across the | :05:00. | :05:08. | |
UK. Between July 2014 and July 2015, personnel numbers in Scotland | :05:09. | :05:14. | |
dropped again A lifetime cost of ?167 billion, it is clear that try | :05:15. | :05:18. | |
department makes no economic sense. It solves none of our pressing | :05:19. | :05:23. | |
foreign policy priorities and it is draining resources from our | :05:24. | :05:25. | |
conventional forces. Try accident not the solution, it is very much | :05:26. | :05:31. | |
part of the problem. Here, here. I'm very sorry to say before I call the | :05:32. | :05:36. | |
next three for speakers who want to catch my eye. I'm going to drop the | :05:37. | :05:41. | |
speech limit down to three minutes in order to accommodate everybody. | :05:42. | :05:48. | |
Can I congratulate the how many for his so you spesh speech. I'm pleased | :05:49. | :05:52. | |
the follow him. I'm speaking not for the Labour Party but myself. I'm | :05:53. | :05:56. | |
lifelong unilateral nuclear disarmament. I haven't changed my | :05:57. | :06:00. | |
view one jot. I hope our commission comes to the same position as my se. | :06:01. | :06:04. | |
I know there are members of the Parliamentary Labour Party who take | :06:05. | :06:07. | |
the same view as myself, maybe a minority, we don't know but I know | :06:08. | :06:11. | |
there are tens of thousands of Labour Party members outside this | :06:12. | :06:14. | |
House and indeed millions of fell yes citizens who take our view and | :06:15. | :06:18. | |
not the view that seems to have the majority in the House today. I'm | :06:19. | :06:21. | |
actually, as it happens, the vice chair of parliamentary CND. At one | :06:22. | :06:26. | |
time I was national Chair of trade union CND. I marched frommed aer | :06:27. | :06:30. | |
March many years ago in a column of tens of thousands of people led by | :06:31. | :06:36. | |
people like Frank Cousins and Barbara cap castle and answer Tony | :06:37. | :06:43. | |
Greenwood and Tony Benn in the movement for unilateral disarmament. | :06:44. | :06:51. | |
It has been said, nuclear weapons are an object sudden abomination. | :06:52. | :06:58. | |
It co-kill people and maim thousands more. Any sane person would say they | :06:59. | :07:03. | |
have to G I'm not convinced our fellow Europeans in Germany, Italy, | :07:04. | :07:07. | |
Spain, would be voting majority for us to keep our nuclear weapons, | :07:08. | :07:11. | |
would they, I do not know but I suspect not. One day I think we will | :07:12. | :07:18. | |
get, win the unilateralist argument in Britain and we will get rid of | :07:19. | :07:22. | |
them. To touch on the word about jobs. Jobs - of course it has been | :07:23. | :07:27. | |
said by the honourable lady from Argyll and Bute, an excellent speech | :07:28. | :07:30. | |
again about replacing the jobs. It is easy. Jobs, it is not about the | :07:31. | :07:34. | |
existence, it is about what the jobs make. If we have people who are | :07:35. | :07:38. | |
making thumb screws, we would say those jobs are not right. We would | :07:39. | :07:42. | |
replace them with something more benign than thumb screws. Nuclear | :07:43. | :07:47. | |
weapons are much more horrific than thumb screws but we have to think | :07:48. | :07:50. | |
what people are doing with their jobs, not just the jobs themselves. | :07:51. | :07:56. | |
We could replace the jobs with, I think, convexal weaponry. Our forces | :07:57. | :08:01. | |
are under resourced, as we know now, and indeed we have heard from the | :08:02. | :08:07. | |
honourable lady from Argyll and Bute that already military experts are | :08:08. | :08:10. | |
saying and people in the forces are saying we need to spend the money | :08:11. | :08:14. | |
not on new clear weapons but on conventional forces, which we | :08:15. | :08:19. | |
fwhooed, I think more ships, perhaps, and the jobs in Barrow and | :08:20. | :08:24. | |
Furness could be provided for. Producing new ships and so on but | :08:25. | :08:31. | |
also, I think decommissioning the existent Trident nuclear submarines, | :08:32. | :08:35. | |
further than not just renewing you about but decommissioning and that | :08:36. | :08:38. | |
would give work for some years to come on itself. There are many | :08:39. | :08:42. | |
arguments which if we had more time I would like to go into. | :08:43. | :08:45. | |
That's all for now. Thank you. Caroline Lucas. Thank you very much. | :08:46. | :08:51. | |
And thank you to my SNP colleagues for securing this important debate. | :08:52. | :08:54. | |
Before I get into the substance of what I want to say in the brief time | :08:55. | :09:00. | |
I want to put on the record my party's position, since how manies | :09:01. | :09:03. | |
have been chal Epping one another to be clear. For the voidance of doubt, | :09:04. | :09:07. | |
my party believes nuclear weapons, the possession and willingness to | :09:08. | :09:12. | |
lose them is I will Lille, immoral and a grotesque diversion of | :09:13. | :09:15. | |
resources from the real threats we face. Let's focus on the misguided | :09:16. | :09:18. | |
claim that if you clear weapons make us safer. I would argue they do not. | :09:19. | :09:23. | |
I'm in the alone. Last year under the um brel University European | :09:24. | :09:32. | |
leadership network, senior military, political and -- umbrella of the | :09:33. | :09:36. | |
European leadership, the former Defence Secretary, former security | :09:37. | :09:40. | |
secretary, a lot of people game together with the explicit aim of | :09:41. | :09:44. | |
"shining a light on the risk posed by nuclear weapons." Reporting in | :09:45. | :09:47. | |
advance of the third international conference on the humanitarian | :09:48. | :09:51. | |
impact they warned, "We believe the risks pose bid nuclear weapons and | :09:52. | :09:55. | |
the international dynamics that could lead to nuclear weapons being | :09:56. | :10:00. | |
used are insufficiently understood by world leaders." I couldn't agree | :10:01. | :10:06. | |
more and that would be true of our Prime Minister today. | :10:07. | :10:11. | |
In his "They are the ultimate insurance in an uncertain world." | :10:12. | :10:15. | |
But he fails to be a necessary oir possession of nuclear weapons in | :10:16. | :10:21. | |
contro tra vention of the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty is | :10:22. | :10:23. | |
exacerbating that uncertainty and leading to the scenario he is keen | :10:24. | :10:27. | |
to avoid. The Secretary of State said we live in an uncertain world. | :10:28. | :10:32. | |
We do but the logic of his argument must be every other country in the | :10:33. | :10:39. | |
world should also seek to be protecting their requirements by the | :10:40. | :10:42. | |
acquirement of nuclear weapons. Does he think that level of proliferation | :10:43. | :10:45. | |
will make us safer? I don't think so. By keeping and upgrading nuclear | :10:46. | :10:49. | |
weapons, we are sending a signal to the rest of the world that security | :10:50. | :10:53. | |
is dependent on the acquisition of nuclear weapons, in the words of | :10:54. | :11:01. | |
Byeong-Hun An, depsh of Kofi Annan those hoin cyst such weapons are | :11:02. | :11:07. | |
essential to national security, then the more other states must deal they | :11:08. | :11:11. | |
too have them. -- this can only make us more | :11:12. | :11:16. | |
unsafe: under the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty our | :11:17. | :11:22. | |
Government has a doubty to pursue flee,s in good faith on effective | :11:23. | :11:25. | |
measures relating to the cessation of the nuclear arms race. Replacing | :11:26. | :11:30. | |
the Trident system means comieting the UK to maintain an arsenal of | :11:31. | :11:34. | |
nuclear weapons for decades to am could, in Coentra vention to that | :11:35. | :11:36. | |
MPT Nuclear weapons are a diversion from | :11:37. | :11:53. | |
the real threats that we face. We should get rid of them now. Thank | :11:54. | :11:59. | |
you. I rise to some up for my party after a debate which falls in the | :12:00. | :12:03. | |
week where we heard the government outlined it plans will -- for | :12:04. | :12:12. | |
defence spending. One of the messages that struck me yesterday | :12:13. | :12:16. | |
was when the Prime Minister announced that strident doesn't | :12:17. | :12:23. | |
squeeze out other defence expenditure. -- Trident doesn't. We | :12:24. | :12:29. | |
had a thorough debate today. It has been very interesting to listen to | :12:30. | :12:33. | |
all contributions, whether I agreed or not. I echo the thoughts of the | :12:34. | :12:39. | |
honourable member New Forest East, who was very clear on as having | :12:40. | :12:47. | |
those discussions. I was elected on a very clear platform of a stronger | :12:48. | :12:52. | |
voice for Scotland, standing up against austerity and always | :12:53. | :12:56. | |
opposing the renewal of weapons of mass destruction. I'm not surprised | :12:57. | :13:00. | |
to hear enthusiasm from the benches opposite and members such as the | :13:01. | :13:08. | |
members for Tonbridge and Malling. It's disappointing, but it is | :13:09. | :13:13. | |
clear. I am disappointed to see anti Labour benches. As was noted by | :13:14. | :13:20. | |
another member. That can only be because they are not clear on their | :13:21. | :13:29. | |
possession. Is it the position of cosier Dugdale? Or the members who | :13:30. | :13:34. | |
don't? Or is it the member for Islington who opposes Trident? Or is | :13:35. | :13:48. | |
it something else? -- Kezia Dugdale. Another reason for their absence, | :13:49. | :13:52. | |
according to the papers, was because they have all been told to campaign | :13:53. | :13:58. | |
in Oldham West. So the fear of losing a by-election is for them, | :13:59. | :14:03. | |
far more important than the defence of the realm. Thank you for his | :14:04. | :14:12. | |
intervention. I have nothing to comment. The member's | :14:13. | :14:20. | |
characterisation of this debate as a "stunt" is an edifying. Our position | :14:21. | :14:28. | |
could not be clearer. It is reasonable and appropriate that we | :14:29. | :14:32. | |
should seek a debate on this matter. The only stance going on will be the | :14:33. | :14:38. | |
mental acrobatics of people getting their head around the ever-changing | :14:39. | :14:44. | |
labour position. This is an important discussion and I fully | :14:45. | :14:51. | |
welcomed their participation in this debate. My friend opened this | :14:52. | :14:56. | |
debate. He is the member representing the very constituency | :14:57. | :15:00. | |
where the nuclear weapons are housed. His powerful speech should | :15:01. | :15:04. | |
be listened to by all honourable members. He pointed out the | :15:05. | :15:09. | |
astonishing and rocketing cost of Trident and anyone watching the TV | :15:10. | :15:15. | |
yesterday will noticed the cost going up with each news bulletin. | :15:16. | :15:23. | |
And I must commend another with his comments about nuclear safety. | :15:24. | :15:32. | |
Clearly, others are sincere in their views of the merit of nuclear | :15:33. | :15:41. | |
weapons. However, I cannot agree with their assertions. That is that | :15:42. | :15:49. | |
nuclear weapons are justified against today's threats. Another -- | :15:50. | :15:58. | |
whilst I didn't agree with another member from South East Cornwall, and | :15:59. | :16:03. | |
whilst she said she wouldn't push the button, I appreciate her | :16:04. | :16:11. | |
thoughtful tone and manner. I did not say that. Thank you for her | :16:12. | :16:19. | |
intervention. I am new clearer about what her position on that is. I | :16:20. | :16:25. | |
appreciate her intervening. I think her measured approach to her earlier | :16:26. | :16:30. | |
contribution was in contrast to her colleague, who converted it to try | :16:31. | :16:39. | |
-- compared Trident to" a burglar alarm". I thank others for the tone | :16:40. | :16:46. | |
they brought to the debate. I was disappointed by another member, who | :16:47. | :16:52. | |
suggested that opposition to Trident was a narrow nationalist issue. I | :16:53. | :16:57. | |
disagree, it concerns everyone of us. And I was appalled at the | :16:58. | :17:00. | |
comments and tone of the name-calling contributions. His | :17:01. | :17:08. | |
contributions added absolutely nothing constructive to today. I do | :17:09. | :17:13. | |
thank the honourable member for Luton North, who made a constructive | :17:14. | :17:22. | |
speech. And another for a compelling and insightful speech and her | :17:23. | :17:28. | |
thoughts on the legality of the use of Trident. The honourable member | :17:29. | :17:44. | |
for Orkney and Shetland, I cannot support his call, but it is | :17:45. | :17:48. | |
important to have another Scottish representative taking part today. | :17:49. | :17:55. | |
And it is regrettable that others are not able to make this debate. I | :17:56. | :18:01. | |
was struck by the remarks of focusing on the dangers of nuclear | :18:02. | :18:06. | |
weapons and another who questioned the independence of the nuclear | :18:07. | :18:15. | |
weapons we hold. I have recently met with atom bomb survivors and the | :18:16. | :18:19. | |
Mayor of Hiroshima. The message is that these people who have been | :18:20. | :18:23. | |
directly affected by these weapons is clear. I wish the honourable | :18:24. | :18:30. | |
members who supported it had been able to join me to hear from them | :18:31. | :18:34. | |
what the impact on real people really is. The points made in the | :18:35. | :18:41. | |
powerful speech by another member that known one cannot win a nuclear | :18:42. | :18:48. | |
war are well made and I can only applaud his sentiments. -- no one | :18:49. | :18:55. | |
can win. It will become a steady drain on the defence budget. It will | :18:56. | :19:05. | |
compete and this will be rather than the needs of the Armed Forces. I | :19:06. | :19:18. | |
have two wonder why this same logic was not obliged to Nimrod, which the | :19:19. | :19:23. | |
government broke up. That left us with no maritime patrol aircraft. As | :19:24. | :19:31. | |
another member said, that is a strange and worrying and very skewed | :19:32. | :19:36. | |
logic. And another pointed out that the deterrent is just not dealing | :19:37. | :19:39. | |
with our current threats and it doesn't stack up. In the context of | :19:40. | :19:45. | |
capped defence budget, this does not make sense. As we can see by the | :19:46. | :19:51. | |
member for Gainsborough. There is no doubt that we will see areas which | :19:52. | :19:58. | |
the government simply expects our Armed Forces to do less in. People | :19:59. | :20:04. | |
in Scotland are clear there is determined national opposition to | :20:05. | :20:09. | |
the renewal of Trident. 57 out of 59th MP representing Scottish | :20:10. | :20:17. | |
constituencies are in opposition. As we heard, this Conservative | :20:18. | :20:21. | |
government has no mandate to oppose the moral views of the people of | :20:22. | :20:25. | |
Scotland. It shows a wilful disregard for the people of Scotland | :20:26. | :20:29. | |
and the message they send him from the ballot box. No wonder the people | :20:30. | :20:34. | |
of Scotland do not care with the UK Government because of that | :20:35. | :20:41. | |
disregard. -- for the UK Government. Thank you. I am pleased | :20:42. | :20:47. | |
to follow the honourable lady. I think in her debut, winding up for | :20:48. | :20:51. | |
her party, so I congratulate her for that. This has been a well-informed | :20:52. | :20:58. | |
and passionate debate. And rightly so, because the strategic deterrent | :20:59. | :21:04. | |
forms a key part of the defence of the realm. This government is | :21:05. | :21:09. | |
committed to maintaining and a short deterrent, clearly stated in our | :21:10. | :21:13. | |
manifesto, on which this government was elected for the whole of the | :21:14. | :21:17. | |
United Kingdom. The argument she has just made that we should respect the | :21:18. | :21:21. | |
wishes of the Scottish people, indeed we should take this into | :21:22. | :21:25. | |
account, that the argument is the same. As was made by the then leader | :21:26. | :21:32. | |
of the London Crater council, who declared London a nuclear free zone. | :21:33. | :21:40. | |
-- greater council. It is not an argument that we can respect, | :21:41. | :21:46. | |
because we have responsibility for the government of the United Kingdom | :21:47. | :21:49. | |
as a whole. We are committed to build four new nuclear armed | :21:50. | :21:58. | |
submarines, to replace the current class. Not replacing the Trident | :21:59. | :22:04. | |
missile. As we have pointed out earlier, this debate subject is not | :22:05. | :22:11. | |
strictly what is at stake today. What we are talking about is in | :22:12. | :22:16. | |
reality whether or not to replace the submarine class, not the missile | :22:17. | :22:22. | |
system. Why do we stand by this commitment? As the Secretary of | :22:23. | :22:25. | |
State said, this is about being realistic. We do not live in an | :22:26. | :22:32. | |
ideal world. Our deterrent is there to deter the most extreme threats to | :22:33. | :22:37. | |
our national security and way of life. Those threats, however much | :22:38. | :22:42. | |
people might wish it were otherwise, have not gone away. The national | :22:43. | :22:46. | |
security review, published yesterday, shows that if anything | :22:47. | :22:49. | |
they are growing and becoming more complex and more diverse by the day. | :22:50. | :22:55. | |
And we as a nation, under the previous Coalition Government, took | :22:56. | :22:59. | |
steps to reduce our nuclear arsenals. We reduce the number of | :23:00. | :23:05. | |
deployed warheads from 48 to 40. Yet other nations with nuclear weapons | :23:06. | :23:15. | |
have not responded to that unilateral action. They need to | :23:16. | :23:17. | |
follow our example and those nations without nuclear weapons should cease | :23:18. | :23:20. | |
all nations to obtain them. Those who wish to gamble with the | :23:21. | :23:25. | |
nation's security do so without any foresight of what the world might be | :23:26. | :23:30. | |
like in decades to come. I have very little time. I have very little | :23:31. | :23:37. | |
time. Our. Thanks to the brave service of so money of our valiant | :23:38. | :23:48. | |
personnel. Even the husband of the honourable lady she referred to | :23:49. | :23:53. | |
yesterday, who I believe is now retired. I respect his service. The | :23:54. | :24:01. | |
fact we have this deterrent so is the seeds of doubt in our potential | :24:02. | :24:11. | |
adversaries. As my friend emphasised, it works as it provides | :24:12. | :24:17. | |
the ability to strike back. It also provides another decision-making | :24:18. | :24:22. | |
centre within the Nato alliance and complicates and confuses an enemy's | :24:23. | :24:27. | |
calculations. Finally, there is no alternative. The 2013 Trident | :24:28. | :24:31. | |
alternative to review was very clear, despite the recollection of | :24:32. | :24:40. | |
my friend that if we are to have a cost-effective way of delivering the | :24:41. | :24:45. | |
minimum deterrent, then successor is the only viable solution. And the | :24:46. | :24:49. | |
ramifications of removing it would be immense. Putting at risk our | :24:50. | :24:54. | |
national security and our position in Nato, the cornerstone of our | :24:55. | :25:00. | |
defence,, but our economy, skills base and jobs across the UK. I will | :25:01. | :25:06. | |
give way. If you would come back to me about the change that is | :25:07. | :25:11. | |
happening in the industry that it will not affect their jobs across | :25:12. | :25:16. | |
the supply chain. Some of the comments that have been made. | :25:17. | :25:20. | |
Firstly, I would like to address the fantasy figures put forward by the | :25:21. | :25:29. | |
defence spokesman for the SNP. They conjured up out of nowhere that if | :25:30. | :25:35. | |
the deterrent was to exist, Scotland would benefit by ?15 million from | :25:36. | :25:41. | |
not spending. The cost of replacing, as identified yesterday, | :25:42. | :25:49. | |
is ?31 billion, spread over decades. Over some 30 years. Therefore, the | :25:50. | :25:54. | |
idea of a much larger figure is not correct. | :25:55. | :26:01. | |
I would like to welcome his apparent admission that in the event the | :26:02. | :26:18. | |
deterrent was to be decommissioned, Scotland would take its share of the | :26:19. | :26:20. | |
nuclear decommissioning risk and location of nuclear material. That | :26:21. | :26:23. | |
is very welcome indeed and is in stark contrast to the responses we | :26:24. | :26:27. | |
have had from the Scottish Government. He also indicated no | :26:28. | :26:31. | |
willingness to acknowledge that there is any potential threat from | :26:32. | :26:37. | |
nuclear powered nations and he was challenged and failed to provide an | :26:38. | :26:40. | |
answer as to what the potential threat might be from Russia despite | :26:41. | :26:45. | |
the fact that every time there is an incursion into either air or sea | :26:46. | :26:52. | |
space, the members of the Scottish National Party are the first to jump | :26:53. | :26:57. | |
up and say, what we doing about it? It seems they have double standards. | :26:58. | :27:02. | |
There has been no increase in nuclear weaponry in this country. | :27:03. | :27:06. | |
Far from it. Nuclear weapons numbers have declined. In response to the | :27:07. | :27:16. | |
honourable member for Chesterfield, I can confirm to him that, as for as | :27:17. | :27:24. | |
the governments is concerned about implementing delivery organisation | :27:25. | :27:28. | |
to make sure we deliver the success programme, this will remain subject | :27:29. | :27:35. | |
to oversight from the Ministry of Defence. We are in the process of | :27:36. | :27:40. | |
working out how we best learn the lessons of delivering major | :27:41. | :27:46. | |
procurement projects like the aircraft carrier Alliance to get the | :27:47. | :27:52. | |
industry properly aligned to get the ministry and delivery organisations | :27:53. | :27:54. | |
properly aligned to work in partnership to deliver this vital | :27:55. | :28:04. | |
programme. He said he will have oversight from the Ministry of | :28:05. | :28:08. | |
Defence. Does that mean the Ministry of Defence will lead it? The | :28:09. | :28:17. | |
Ministry of Defence... This will report through the MoD's structures | :28:18. | :28:22. | |
and the Treasury will take their interest in the delivery of major | :28:23. | :28:26. | |
programmes as they do in all of our category a programmes. This will be | :28:27. | :28:32. | |
the largest of these. We have had contributions from a number of | :28:33. | :28:36. | |
members across the House and they have been well recognised by the | :28:37. | :28:40. | |
honourable lady opposite so I don't have time, I regret, to thank | :28:41. | :28:44. | |
members for contributing. What I would just say by way of conclusion | :28:45. | :28:50. | |
is that it was welcome to see consensus between most of the | :28:51. | :28:54. | |
contributions from the official opposition and the contributions on | :28:55. | :28:59. | |
this side of the House. I recognise that many of those who stood up have | :29:00. | :29:06. | |
done so with courage in speaking in their beliefs and the importance of | :29:07. | :29:14. | |
our strategic deterrence. The former mayor of London co-convened a Labour | :29:15. | :29:27. | |
review into the strategic deterrent. The honourable manner for | :29:28. | :29:29. | |
Chesterfield did his best but even he was unable to make clear what | :29:30. | :29:33. | |
this review was four, who was in charge and what difference it will | :29:34. | :29:37. | |
make. Heaven knows will emerge from the review. We might get a clue from | :29:38. | :29:41. | |
the vote imminently but I was astonished to learn from the | :29:42. | :29:44. | |
opposition spokesman that he does not regard it as appropriate to vote | :29:45. | :29:49. | |
on this motion in Parliament today. May I say to those Labour members | :29:50. | :29:55. | |
who share my concerns to maintain continuous deterrence, let your | :29:56. | :29:59. | |
conscious guide you into the right division lobby this afternoon. I | :30:00. | :30:02. | |
urge members of the House on all sides to do the right things for the | :30:03. | :30:07. | |
whole of the UK, not just for today, but for tomorrow, and restore the | :30:08. | :30:11. | |
consensus that has kept us safe for decades. The question is as on the | :30:12. | :30:24. | |
order paper. Division. Clear the lobbies. | :30:25. | :38:28. | |
Order. Order. The ayes to the right, 64. The noes, to the left. | :38:29. | :42:45. | |
330. The ayes to the right, 64. The noes to the left, 330. The noes have | :42:46. | :42:53. | |
it. The noes have it. Unlock. We now come to the second opposition date | :42:54. | :42:59. | |
motion. Relating to HMRC office closures. I call her to move the | :43:00. | :43:10. | |
motion. Thank you. And I rise to speak to the S NP motion against | :43:11. | :43:21. | |
these closures. And the rest of the UK. The government's recent | :43:22. | :43:25. | |
announcement of the plant closures of 137 officers as Dresden -- is | :43:26. | :43:34. | |
driven by the drive to drive down austerity cuts. HMRC employs 8330 | :43:35. | :43:45. | |
people across Scotland. This is 13% of all HMRC staff. And while we | :43:46. | :43:50. | |
still do not have the full information of how many jobs will be | :43:51. | :43:55. | |
lost, the BBC have reported... I will be happy to give way. Thank | :43:56. | :44:02. | |
you. Does she agree with me that it was a Democratic outreach that the | :44:03. | :44:04. | |
government had produced a statement on this during a parliamentary | :44:05. | :44:16. | |
recess? I thank him and I couldn't agree more. More evidence of the | :44:17. | :44:20. | |
lack of respect for Scotland and Scottish workers. As I was saying, | :44:21. | :44:26. | |
the BBC have reported that it could be over 2000 jobs in Scotland that | :44:27. | :44:32. | |
will be lost. And we have no detail. With your indulgence, let me list of | :44:33. | :44:39. | |
the range of officers set to close. In Aberdeen, we have an office | :44:40. | :44:46. | |
closing by 2021. In Bathgate and Livingstone, by 2020. Two offices to | :44:47. | :44:52. | |
close in Dundee. Three offices to close in East Kilbride. Two large | :44:53. | :45:02. | |
offices to close in Glasgow macro. And to consolidate into one large | :45:03. | :45:08. | |
one. I will be happy to give way. The motion also refers to throughout | :45:09. | :45:14. | |
the UK. Does she have the statistics for the whole UK, as well as | :45:15. | :45:21. | |
Scotland? I don't to hand but I will be happy to hear his views and | :45:22. | :45:25. | |
discuss further with him. We also have an office shouting in | :45:26. | :45:34. | |
Inverness. These closures are distressing news for the employees, | :45:35. | :45:37. | |
their families and the communities affected. The closure is included in | :45:38. | :45:45. | |
my own constituency. We must remember that it affects individual | :45:46. | :45:54. | |
people, that I have met and my colleagues have. Many have proudly | :45:55. | :46:00. | |
worked in their roles for up to 30 years. Many have spent their whole | :46:01. | :46:05. | |
careers in their local HMRC offices. Three of the Scottish centre is set | :46:06. | :46:13. | |
for closure employ staff who issued specific guidance to the public on | :46:14. | :46:22. | |
access and eligible as -- eligibility for tax credits. It is | :46:23. | :46:27. | |
unthinkable that this support will be withdrawn. These austerity | :46:28. | :46:33. | |
measures will see government for government departments suffer. They | :46:34. | :46:35. | |
will be reduced at the hands of the Chancellor, who continues to cut, | :46:36. | :46:41. | |
despite the advice of many academics. Only yesterday, a report | :46:42. | :46:45. | |
said that George Osborne could be forced to borrow billions of pounds | :46:46. | :46:51. | |
more than forecast if he keeps on. The two academics from city | :46:52. | :46:59. | |
University estimated that by 2020, the government will have a 40 | :47:00. | :47:05. | |
billion deficit. That would undermined the fiscal charter, that | :47:06. | :47:09. | |
they only borrow in times of distress. Despite the context she | :47:10. | :47:14. | |
just said outcome of the difficult economic circumstances. Will she | :47:15. | :47:23. | |
welcomed the new jobs in Cardiff that will be open to that? That is | :47:24. | :47:29. | |
good news for your constituency. But I want to know what the Chancellor | :47:30. | :47:34. | |
has to say to those in Scotland, who will lose their local tax offices. | :47:35. | :47:42. | |
This Chancellor's attempt to run an absolute surplus is not working and | :47:43. | :47:48. | |
is not credible. We were elected on a manifesto that offered an | :47:49. | :47:55. | |
alternative. It would have injected ?140 billion into the economy, and | :47:56. | :48:00. | |
our cut relations. The closure of the officers have a disproportionate | :48:01. | :48:04. | |
effect on Scotland, with the vast majority of ring fenced Department | :48:05. | :48:15. | |
is lying outside Scotland. It was the Scotland left with no HMRC | :48:16. | :48:19. | |
offices beyond the central bolt. These plans have failed to | :48:20. | :48:26. | |
understand the needs of the Scottish economy. Beyond the centre, we have | :48:27. | :48:33. | |
a wide range of industries. Many of these industries rely on the | :48:34. | :48:42. | |
opportunity to work with local tax offices. I will give way. I have not | :48:43. | :48:52. | |
spoken yet. As a former resident of the great city of Aberdeen, she will | :48:53. | :48:56. | |
understand the complexity of the industry that relies very heavily on | :48:57. | :49:01. | |
contractors and the need for specialist tax advice. Could she | :49:02. | :49:06. | |
explain the distance between Aberdeen and Edinburgh, but people | :49:07. | :49:14. | |
making the decision, must think is down the road? I welcome that | :49:15. | :49:21. | |
statement. These are complexities that the departments don't seem to | :49:22. | :49:26. | |
appreciate. The world of work is changing. Many people are starting | :49:27. | :49:30. | |
to develop their own small businesses. Women are choosing to | :49:31. | :49:36. | |
take charge of their own businesses. A network of good tax support is | :49:37. | :49:41. | |
essential. That is if they are to thrive. I was recently visited by a | :49:42. | :49:47. | |
constituent who has a farming business and he impressed upon me | :49:48. | :49:51. | |
the importance of HMRC services. For industries such as farming, who | :49:52. | :50:01. | |
often operate a year in arrears to very tight margins, my colleagues | :50:02. | :50:08. | |
have very high concerns about them. I will be happy to give way. I | :50:09. | :50:15. | |
called my local tax offices today to see if I could pop in to speak to | :50:16. | :50:22. | |
them. For the last year, you cannot speak to them face to face. You can | :50:23. | :50:29. | |
only do it by phone it is regional or not makes no difference. He makes | :50:30. | :50:36. | |
my point very well. John Allen said our members have repeatedly told us | :50:37. | :50:45. | |
about members getting help from HMRC. It is often hampered by poor | :50:46. | :50:56. | |
broadband connectivity. And long waiting times. This modernisation | :50:57. | :51:01. | |
programme must bring efficiency savings, but members will be | :51:02. | :51:07. | |
concerned that it will compound existing problems. The government | :51:08. | :51:11. | |
needs to reassure businesses that disruption is kept to a minimum. | :51:12. | :51:16. | |
This should be used by HMRC to deliver services that are easy to | :51:17. | :51:21. | |
access, provide help tailored to small businesses and provide | :51:22. | :51:26. | |
certainty. If the Chancellor won't listen to the SNP, perhaps people | :51:27. | :51:31. | |
listen to the Federation of Small Businesses. We know these closures | :51:32. | :51:35. | |
have been happening for some time. In March 2013, the government said | :51:36. | :51:42. | |
it was closing 281 enquiry Centres. And it was reported that 1300 jobs | :51:43. | :51:48. | |
would be lost. Plans to streamline them, through the use of telephone | :51:49. | :51:57. | |
consultations were piloted in 2012. Then again, in 2014, HMRC announced | :51:58. | :52:02. | |
plans to close 14 offices across the UK by December 2015. This would | :52:03. | :52:13. | |
affect 690 administrative employees. And civil servants. The | :52:14. | :52:17. | |
Public Accounts Committee of this house said in the first half of | :52:18. | :52:22. | |
2015, following the closures, only 50% of calls were answered by the | :52:23. | :52:29. | |
HMRC. Down from 73% in the last financial year. In relation to this, | :52:30. | :52:38. | |
the PCS branch chairman said this is baffling. HMRC have trained staff | :52:39. | :52:44. | |
doing an excellent job, handling more calls than they can. This sends | :52:45. | :52:50. | |
the message message that Dundee doesn't feature in the long term | :52:51. | :52:55. | |
plan. She is being generous with her time. In the uplands of a Scottish | :52:56. | :53:01. | |
independence, in the view of her party, what was the detailed | :53:02. | :53:05. | |
analysis which they as a government would put into place as to the | :53:06. | :53:10. | |
quantum of HMRC staff and the quantum of offices they would a | :53:11. | :53:17. | |
new, independent Scotland? He is getting a little ahead of himself. I | :53:18. | :53:23. | |
will be coming onto that matter in a moment. Ironically, during the | :53:24. | :53:30. | |
referendum, many argued that an independent Scotland would result in | :53:31. | :53:36. | |
job losses in public services. It was lauded as the union dividend. We | :53:37. | :53:42. | |
were told by the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, Danny Alexander, as he | :53:43. | :53:48. | |
was then, who is sadly no longer in his place, was that it wouldn't | :53:49. | :53:56. | |
work. The Scottish Labour Party tweeted about jobs in July and told | :53:57. | :54:02. | |
us that 3200 jobs at HMRC was just one of the reasons that being part | :54:03. | :54:06. | |
of the UK was best for Scottish jobs. Many are dependent on off | :54:07. | :54:15. | |
staying in the UK. That is not the case. I will hope that those who | :54:16. | :54:22. | |
will have constituencies affected will now think carefully and think | :54:23. | :54:26. | |
about who can be trusted. That is when it comes to jobs in Scotland. | :54:27. | :54:35. | |
The gaffe was estimated to be ?34 billion. -- gap was. Some 16 and a | :54:36. | :54:47. | |
half billion followed by large businesses. We in the SMP take the | :54:48. | :54:58. | |
view that the large majority want to contribute. -- the S NP. The | :54:59. | :55:05. | |
government's plans to slash 137 officers will have a knock on impact | :55:06. | :55:16. | |
on the ability of small businesses to get tax advice. I would like to | :55:17. | :55:24. | |
thank others who gathered immediately after the announcement. | :55:25. | :55:30. | |
Gary and his PCS colleagues are working hard to engage with staff in | :55:31. | :55:36. | |
offices in West Lothian and have talked about morale and other issues | :55:37. | :55:42. | |
that I have highlighted in my speech. It cannot go without mention | :55:43. | :55:49. | |
how important these unions are. This government has marched ahead, which | :55:50. | :55:53. | |
would mean the vital work our unions do, would be made ever more | :55:54. | :55:58. | |
difficult. Never has it been more obvious all vital that we must have | :55:59. | :56:02. | |
good engagement with our workforce that deliver vital public services, | :56:03. | :56:04. | |
including those... I will give way. I know that the honourable lady is | :56:05. | :56:23. | |
just storing up the best until last. In the meantime, thank you very much | :56:24. | :56:27. | |
and thank you to the honourable lady. We have a serious issue in | :56:28. | :56:35. | |
Northern Ireland. We are the only part of the UK which gives rise to | :56:36. | :56:42. | |
fuel smuggling and the loss of the huge amount of revenue along the | :56:43. | :56:46. | |
border with the Republic of Ireland. The closures to be | :56:47. | :56:51. | |
announced H RC offices in Northern Ireland has got very serious | :56:52. | :56:54. | |
consequences. I wonder if the honourable lady would like to | :56:55. | :56:58. | |
reflect upon that. And before she calls upon someone else to | :56:59. | :57:04. | |
intervene! I thank the honourable lady for her intervention and I | :57:05. | :57:09. | |
share your concerns. I know those concerns will be shared across | :57:10. | :57:13. | |
Scotland in other parts of the UK. My local representative spoke of | :57:14. | :57:17. | |
what they felt was a perfect storm brewing. The great pressure we put | :57:18. | :57:22. | |
on our public services and the more we squeeze them, the more likely | :57:23. | :57:28. | |
breakdowns in the system. I will finish up. I am sure you can keep | :57:29. | :57:32. | |
his intervention for other colleagues will come in. I urge all | :57:33. | :57:38. | |
parties to support our motion and ask this Tory government in the | :57:39. | :57:41. | |
strongest terms to think again on this nonsensical and ill-conceived | :57:42. | :57:55. | |
HMO closures. I am delighted to be able to respond to this debate | :57:56. | :58:00. | |
because protecting the country's tax revenues is a key part of this | :58:01. | :58:04. | |
government's economic plan and because we have already made great | :58:05. | :58:07. | |
steps forward in modernising the way taxes collected. The changes | :58:08. | :58:14. | |
announced on the 12th of November are an important part of Her | :58:15. | :58:20. | |
Majesty's Revenue and Customs programme designed to create a | :58:21. | :58:24. | |
modern, efficient organisation that continues to protect this country's | :58:25. | :58:30. | |
tax revenues. Modernising and improving the efficiency of HMRC and | :58:31. | :58:34. | |
enabling them to better tackle inflation, drive down a modern, | :58:35. | :58:35. | |
efficient organisation that continues to protect this country's | :58:36. | :58:37. | |
tax revenues. Modernising and improving the efficiency of HMRC and | :58:38. | :58:39. | |
enabling them to better tackle inflation, drive down the summer | :58:40. | :58:54. | |
budget, which will help HMO see recover an additional ?7.2 billion. | :58:55. | :59:00. | |
As a result, we have succeeded in driving down the tax cap from 7.3% | :59:01. | :59:11. | |
in 2009-10 to 6.4% in 2013-14. This represents an additional ?14.5 | :59:12. | :59:16. | |
billion in cumulative tax collected. Over the last Parliament, HMRC | :59:17. | :59:22. | |
secured ?100 billion in additional compliance yield including a record | :59:23. | :59:30. | |
level of ?26.6 billion in 2014-15. But we have also made important cost | :59:31. | :59:34. | |
reductions to the operational side of HMRC and I make no apology for | :59:35. | :59:41. | |
that. HMRC cannot be immune from the requirement that its resources are | :59:42. | :59:45. | |
spent widely. I will give way to the very patient honourable member. It | :59:46. | :59:52. | |
was friendly fire for the SNP but they did not accept it. The Minister | :59:53. | :59:57. | |
will acknowledge the disappointment that there is a Northern Ireland | :59:58. | :00:01. | |
with ten offices closing. We haven't got the full numbers as yet of those | :00:02. | :00:09. | |
who lose their jobs and further to the comments by my honourable | :00:10. | :00:12. | |
friend, we are vulnerable at the best of times but with the land | :00:13. | :00:16. | |
border, this will make it even worse. First of all, what I would | :00:17. | :00:23. | |
say on that point is that this is about offices are not staff. In | :00:24. | :00:29. | |
terms of the numbers of people who are likely to be employed, the | :00:30. | :00:33. | |
example, in Northern Ireland, it should not be taken that because of | :00:34. | :00:37. | |
this is about offices are not staff. In terms of the numbers of people | :00:38. | :00:39. | |
who are likely to be employed, the example, in Northern Ireland, it | :00:40. | :00:42. | |
should not be taken that because offices are closing, it means that | :00:43. | :00:44. | |
the total number of staff employed by HMRC in Northern Ireland as a | :00:45. | :00:49. | |
whole will reduce. Of course HMRC is aware of the specific issues with | :00:50. | :00:52. | |
regards to smuggling, for example, that have already been touched upon | :00:53. | :00:58. | |
and are determined to address it but let me reassure him in terms of | :00:59. | :01:06. | |
numbers of staff, it should not be taken from the announcement of | :01:07. | :01:10. | |
office closures that there will necessarily be a reduction in staff | :01:11. | :01:14. | |
in Northern Ireland at all. Let me give way to the honourable | :01:15. | :01:21. | |
gentleman. Does the Minister not realise that when you close offices, | :01:22. | :01:27. | |
it does have an effect on staff? Can he give us the numbers of the staff | :01:28. | :01:34. | |
affected? I have got school teachers in my constituency who want to sort | :01:35. | :01:39. | |
out their pension problems. They cannot get through. Nobody responds | :01:40. | :01:46. | |
to them. Or he do about that? The point I am making is that closure of | :01:47. | :01:53. | |
offices has an impact on staff in those offices. To answer his first | :01:54. | :02:01. | |
question, by 2027, when this process will have been completed, | :02:02. | :02:10. | |
approximately 4000 of the existing 58,000 people employed by HMRC will | :02:11. | :02:16. | |
not be within reasonable daily travel distance to an HMRC office. | :02:17. | :02:25. | |
That is the scale. In terms of customer service, I agree that | :02:26. | :02:33. | |
HMRC's standards need to be higher and there have been times recently | :02:34. | :02:37. | |
where it has not been at an acceptable level. I am pleased that | :02:38. | :02:41. | |
the performance is significantly better at the moment than it was in | :02:42. | :02:47. | |
the April, May, June period of this year. It is still not as high as we | :02:48. | :02:52. | |
would like it to be but it is of a level that is above the average | :02:53. | :03:02. | |
standard of -- over the last six or seven years. But in terms of | :03:03. | :03:05. | |
ensuring there is a high level of customer service and in terms of | :03:06. | :03:09. | |
making sure we bring yielding, it is important that HMRC's resources are | :03:10. | :03:14. | |
deployed efficiently and effectively and it is important that we ensure | :03:15. | :03:21. | |
that services can be delivered in the most efficient way possible. I | :03:22. | :03:26. | |
am very grateful to the Minister. On the issue of staff numbers, my | :03:27. | :03:31. | |
honourable friend will be aware that the office in Chelmsford will close | :03:32. | :03:36. | |
and will be based in Stratford in east London. That is 25 minutes | :03:37. | :03:42. | |
train journey from Chelmsford. Can those people who work in Chelmsford | :03:43. | :03:46. | |
gets some reassurance from what my honourable friend has said that the | :03:47. | :03:53. | |
issue of redeploying staff from Chelmsford to Stratford is a viable | :03:54. | :03:58. | |
proposition? I think I can provide that reassurance to my right | :03:59. | :04:04. | |
honourable friend. The position as this would HMRC. An organisation | :04:05. | :04:11. | |
that can make better use of technology, an organisation that can | :04:12. | :04:15. | |
prove the way it works will find there are some activities that HMRC | :04:16. | :04:20. | |
currently performs for which it requires large numbers of staff that | :04:21. | :04:23. | |
it won't necessarily need the staff numbers but there are a number of | :04:24. | :04:27. | |
things that HMRC do that mean it will require the staff members. HMRC | :04:28. | :04:32. | |
will become a more highly skilled organisation. It will need those | :04:33. | :04:41. | |
highly talented people to be able to ensure we get the money in and those | :04:42. | :04:46. | |
people, and I think my right on boyfriend provides an example, there | :04:47. | :04:52. | |
may be people working in Chelmsford who have skills that HMRC needs. | :04:53. | :04:57. | |
They will be able to work in Stratford. I can point to other | :04:58. | :05:05. | |
examples up and down the United Kingdom of similar circumstances. My | :05:06. | :05:11. | |
honourable friend from Shipley wants to intervene. I don't disagree with | :05:12. | :05:15. | |
the overall picture that my honourable friend is painting but | :05:16. | :05:18. | |
hub in Yorkshire, Leeds, rather than hub in Yorkshire, Leeds, rather than | :05:19. | :05:25. | |
Bradford is crass. Can I ask him, if it can be shown on the relocating | :05:26. | :05:29. | |
the regional hub in the Bradford district would be cheaper for the | :05:30. | :05:34. | |
taxpayer and it can be demonstrated that the calibre of staff could be | :05:35. | :05:37. | |
accommodated and attracted to that base, will he give a commitment to | :05:38. | :05:42. | |
revisit this particular decision and look at what Bradford is able to | :05:43. | :05:49. | |
offer? What I would say to my honourable friend, first of all, I | :05:50. | :05:53. | |
welcome the fact he supports the view that we should move to a | :05:54. | :05:58. | |
smaller number of regional centres. In terms of the case of Leeds | :05:59. | :06:02. | |
Bradford, and I am conscious there are different views here, the | :06:03. | :06:07. | |
analysis that HMRC has provided is that have large numbers of staff who | :06:08. | :06:13. | |
potentially now live and work in, for example you walk or Harrogate or | :06:14. | :06:22. | |
Sheffield and if you like coming back to the point made by my right | :06:23. | :06:27. | |
honourable friend the Chelmsford, for those people to be redeployed, | :06:28. | :06:31. | |
it is easier for them to be redeployed to Leeds because there is | :06:32. | :06:36. | |
a direct train service to Leeds. If they went to Bradford, there would | :06:37. | :06:40. | |
have to travel to Leeds and then change. Their commute may be beyond | :06:41. | :06:46. | |
what would constitute a reasonable daily travel. I should've said Hull | :06:47. | :06:55. | |
rather than Harrogate. It is easier to get to Leeds and Bradford. But as | :06:56. | :07:02. | |
always, I am more than happy to listen to the arguments that he | :07:03. | :07:09. | |
makes and indeed others. I will have a meeting with Bradford MPs over the | :07:10. | :07:12. | |
course of the next week or two to hear the arguments that they wish to | :07:13. | :07:19. | |
put. I am spoilt for choice. I will give way to the honourable | :07:20. | :07:25. | |
gentleman. The Minister will be aware that there is a special | :07:26. | :07:28. | |
investigation unit in Northern Ireland dealing with serious and | :07:29. | :07:35. | |
organised crime gangs and extra special tax affairs of individuals. | :07:36. | :07:42. | |
That unit was based in Moira house. It is faced with closure. Well that | :07:43. | :07:49. | |
unit now be based? The intention with Northern Ireland is to have one | :07:50. | :07:57. | |
main office in Belfast. If we are looking around the United Kingdom as | :07:58. | :08:01. | |
a whole, there are a handful of specialist centres, but in terms of | :08:02. | :08:08. | |
Northern Ireland, the intention is to work out of Belfast. But can I | :08:09. | :08:18. | |
say a bit more about the approach? I welcome the fact that HMRC's | :08:19. | :08:26. | |
expenditure on its Estates fell from ?371 million in 2010 to ?255 million | :08:27. | :08:32. | |
in 2014-15 and these plans will generate further savings of ?100 | :08:33. | :08:37. | |
million a year by 2025. Let me make this point. That will allow HMRC to | :08:38. | :08:46. | |
better concentrate on its core task of revenue collection and that is | :08:47. | :08:52. | |
the important point here. I would make this point. Yes, there are | :08:53. | :08:59. | |
savings here for HMRC in reducing their estate costs but what they | :09:00. | :09:03. | |
have made clear to me is that regardless of what the spending | :09:04. | :09:06. | |
review settlement will be tomorrow, they would move in this direction | :09:07. | :09:10. | |
because they believed that the best way in which they can deliver | :09:11. | :09:15. | |
services and collect tax is through these regional centres. I will give | :09:16. | :09:21. | |
way to the honourable gentleman. I would like to pay tribute to the | :09:22. | :09:26. | |
staff of HMRC who do a very tough and challenging job in collecting | :09:27. | :09:31. | |
the taxes which pay for our vital public services. He mentioned is | :09:32. | :09:35. | |
customer service and noted the concerns he had recently and I have | :09:36. | :09:40. | |
had constituency correspondence confirming that it has not been | :09:41. | :09:49. | |
adequate to date. Can he explain how cutting off his numbers, removing | :09:50. | :09:53. | |
the local knowledge in memory of staff, increases the customer | :09:54. | :09:57. | |
service that people can expect? I think it might be helpful if I set | :09:58. | :10:10. | |
out a bit of history here. When HMRC was formed in 2005, is at 572 | :10:11. | :10:17. | |
offices. That is frankly an inefficient way of doing business on | :10:18. | :10:22. | |
the 21st century. Reorganising this network of offices was a policy | :10:23. | :10:28. | |
priority which is why following a number of reorganisations, that | :10:29. | :10:33. | |
number was reduced to 393 in 2010. It now stands a number of | :10:34. | :10:35. | |
reorganisations, that number was reduced to 393 in 2010. It now. That | :10:36. | :10:47. | |
is a start but it is done not enough in terms of finding efficiencies. | :10:48. | :10:53. | |
The changes announced yesterday represent the next phase. Over the | :10:54. | :10:57. | |
next ten years, the department will bring its employee is together. | :10:58. | :11:04. | |
These new high-quality regional centres will serve every nation in | :11:05. | :11:13. | |
the United Kingdom, creating high-quality skilled jobs and | :11:14. | :11:18. | |
opportunities in Birmingham, Belfast, Croydon, Edinburgh, | :11:19. | :11:25. | |
Manchester, Newcastle and Stratford. Let me just make this point. There | :11:26. | :11:31. | |
are significant advantages to such a system. The new offices will have | :11:32. | :11:36. | |
the capacity to host multiple lines of businesses and have senior jobs | :11:37. | :11:40. | |
on-site. They will give senior employees the chance to build their | :11:41. | :11:47. | |
skills in one single office. They will be in locations with strong | :11:48. | :11:54. | |
transport links. They represent the way business is done in the | :11:55. | :12:00. | |
21st-century. Let me... I will give way to the honourable member again. | :12:01. | :12:08. | |
He is being very generous. He mentioned that 4000 employees could | :12:09. | :12:13. | |
be affected by 2020. Can he redeploy all those employees. If this is what | :12:14. | :12:22. | |
he is actually saying? To come back to that point, 4000 of the current | :12:23. | :12:30. | |
58,000 employed by Iran will be outside a reasonable daily travel. | :12:31. | :12:39. | |
HMRC acknowledges that. -- HMRC will be outside. That will be over the | :12:40. | :12:49. | |
course of that period. But I would make the point that the vast | :12:50. | :12:55. | |
majority of HMRC staff, and I realise it isn't for the vast | :12:56. | :13:01. | |
majority of them, are able to work in the centres I have outlined. | :13:02. | :13:05. | |
Would he agree with me that the current level of customer service in | :13:06. | :13:11. | |
HMRC is not acceptable? If it was not for the fact that currently 40% | :13:12. | :13:19. | |
of calls are never answered, his argument would make sense. Would he | :13:20. | :13:24. | |
agree that a reasonable centre, which allows us to flex the number | :13:25. | :13:29. | |
of staff would be a coherent approach to getting calls answered, | :13:30. | :13:35. | |
which cannot be done with 190 centres. -- regional centre. The | :13:36. | :13:45. | |
numbers are not that bad. 80% of calls are getting through. We need | :13:46. | :13:51. | |
to ensure the quality is higher. The point is that it is easier to | :13:52. | :13:58. | |
provide flexibility where there are fewer centres. And the point about | :13:59. | :14:04. | |
being able to move people from processing jobs, I was addressing | :14:05. | :14:11. | |
this... Making this point earlier that some of these processing jobs | :14:12. | :14:14. | |
would be necessary in future, but a lot of the compliance jobs will be. | :14:15. | :14:29. | |
-- will not be necessary. That will be easier to deliver, if they are | :14:30. | :14:33. | |
already in the same building and already working with the same | :14:34. | :14:37. | |
people, if the training facilities are there. This is why I believe it | :14:38. | :14:42. | |
is absolutely the right measure to take to ensure the opportunities are | :14:43. | :14:48. | |
there for the existing staff. I am spoiled for choice. I just | :14:49. | :14:54. | |
wanted... I believe that 3000 extra staff were laid on to help handle | :14:55. | :14:58. | |
phone calls at weekends. I welcome that. Can he reassure us that we | :14:59. | :15:04. | |
will still have human beings at the end of the telephones in this new | :15:05. | :15:11. | |
system? Which I fully support. It is the case that HMRC, following the | :15:12. | :15:17. | |
problems earlier this year, brought in an additional 3000 people to work | :15:18. | :15:20. | |
on the telephones. Those people have been trained up. They are now | :15:21. | :15:26. | |
deployed. That significantly explains why there has been a | :15:27. | :15:30. | |
significant improvement in performance over the last few weeks, | :15:31. | :15:35. | |
but there is more work to do. I will give way. Thank you. I commend the | :15:36. | :15:41. | |
government for making it a priority to clamp down on tax evasion. It has | :15:42. | :15:48. | |
contributed to an extra 11.9 billion collected in the last tax year. A | :15:49. | :15:55. | |
place in my constituency has long played a key role in closing the tax | :15:56. | :16:00. | |
gap. Will he agree to meet with me to discuss the future of a large | :16:01. | :16:04. | |
number of dedicated and skilled workers? I am happy to meet my | :16:05. | :16:12. | |
honourable friend. I have also had a request from my friend, the member | :16:13. | :16:18. | |
for Rochford and Southend East. I will be happy to meet him. And our | :16:19. | :16:27. | |
mutual friend from South and West. I am happy to meet. -- Southend West. | :16:28. | :16:39. | |
I think HMRC are right to move in this direction. I know for some of | :16:40. | :16:45. | |
her constituents, the option of working in Maidstone, which is | :16:46. | :16:49. | |
staying open for an additional four years beyond the timescale for | :16:50. | :16:54. | |
Chatham is won a number of will take to take up. -- is one. Thank you. | :16:55. | :17:06. | |
Many MPs and attacks experts support the view that it is essential to | :17:07. | :17:13. | |
maintaining confidence in the tax system. Does he agree that it will | :17:14. | :17:22. | |
open the way to more tax problems? -- tax experts. No, I don't. As I | :17:23. | :17:29. | |
have made clear, the number of HMRC officers has been falling since its | :17:30. | :17:35. | |
creation in 2005. This has already been touched upon, the closure of | :17:36. | :17:44. | |
enquiry centres. Dealing with tax avoidance and evasion has been most | :17:45. | :17:49. | |
marked. We have seen improvement. The point is that they mainly deal | :17:50. | :17:53. | |
with these through the sophisticated use of data analysis. It brings | :17:54. | :18:00. | |
together highly skilled people. The more that we can do that, that is | :18:01. | :18:06. | |
what can make the big difference. I will give way. Thank you. Thank | :18:07. | :18:17. | |
you. If HMRC requires visibility, is there any consideration being given | :18:18. | :18:26. | |
to mobile operations, let's take Northern Ireland, it has got one big | :18:27. | :18:31. | |
office in Belfast. You could send them down to Londonderry, four | :18:32. | :18:40. | |
example. There are considerations, which have been brought in as a | :18:41. | :18:46. | |
partial replacement for enquiry centres. But I think their presence, | :18:47. | :18:52. | |
he raises an interesting point, but in terms of HMRC being active, the | :18:53. | :18:58. | |
fact that its record is strong, the fact that we have seen a rise in | :18:59. | :19:02. | |
prosecutions, the fact that it is hard to open a newspaper without | :19:03. | :19:08. | |
reading reports of the wealthy facing significant tax bills, | :19:09. | :19:12. | |
because they have successfully closed down tax avoidance schemes, I | :19:13. | :19:18. | |
think is helping HMRC in reducing this behaviour. I will give way. | :19:19. | :19:26. | |
Thank you. I thank him. I am heartened by his confirmation that | :19:27. | :19:33. | |
reducing the tax cap and protecting it remains a priority. This has | :19:34. | :19:45. | |
resulted in ?57 billion extra tax revenue, compared to 2006. He is | :19:46. | :19:50. | |
right to say our record is strong and we remain committed to that. If | :19:51. | :19:56. | |
I can make some progress, I am being generous to people who wish to | :19:57. | :20:00. | |
intervene, but I also should be generous to those who wish to take | :20:01. | :20:06. | |
part in the debate. Of him, and I know he will find this helpful, | :20:07. | :20:11. | |
there are no fewer than 19. I gently put that. His speech so far, | :20:12. | :20:17. | |
probably as a result, is significantly longer than that of | :20:18. | :20:21. | |
the person who led the debate. I'm sure he wouldn't want that to be the | :20:22. | :20:29. | |
case. I certainly wouldn't. HMRC has done this the right way, it has told | :20:30. | :20:37. | |
staff first, it has kept them abreast. It has held events up and | :20:38. | :20:43. | |
down the country to ensure they can work with staff. I should also, as I | :20:44. | :20:48. | |
said before, make it clear that this is a locations announcement, not a | :20:49. | :20:55. | |
workforce one. The idea is to keep redundancies know. I will not give | :20:56. | :21:04. | |
way. I take his words very seriously. I can assure members of | :21:05. | :21:08. | |
this house, I will make more progress. I just want to make the | :21:09. | :21:12. | |
point in response to what we have heard from the member for | :21:13. | :21:17. | |
Livingston, that the changes that HMRC are talking about, about trying | :21:18. | :21:22. | |
to find efficiencies to centralisation, this is not unique | :21:23. | :21:28. | |
to them. It's not unique to the United Kingdom government. The | :21:29. | :21:31. | |
Scottish Government, they have also brought forward proposals to do the | :21:32. | :21:40. | |
same. It brought proposals to close police Scotland's control rooms. | :21:41. | :21:48. | |
Also, fire stations. Into one national body. We have seen cuts to | :21:49. | :21:53. | |
the number of court buildings across Scotland. And we have seen cuts to | :21:54. | :21:58. | |
the number of incorporated colleges by almost half. I'm sure they have | :21:59. | :22:03. | |
good reasons for doing that, but so do we and it is right that we take | :22:04. | :22:09. | |
these steps. If I may conclude, if we want HMRC to do its job | :22:10. | :22:13. | |
effectively, we must ensure that they are fit for the challenge. We | :22:14. | :22:18. | |
have two be willing to modernise, find efficiencies and make long-term | :22:19. | :22:25. | |
decisions. That is what they are doing. Transforming itself into a | :22:26. | :22:29. | |
smaller, more highly skilled organisation, with a data driven | :22:30. | :22:33. | |
compliance operation, generating more for the taxpayer at a lower | :22:34. | :22:38. | |
cost. What with the opponents prefer? To rely on a structure that | :22:39. | :22:44. | |
states before the Internet era? To pump more money without examining | :22:45. | :22:50. | |
where it is going? It is right to ensure it carries out efficiencies | :22:51. | :22:54. | |
and carries on delivering for the British taxpayer. That is the policy | :22:55. | :22:57. | |
it has embarked on and the one that is increasing revenue yield and | :22:58. | :23:04. | |
closing the tax gap. I therefore urge the house to reject the motion | :23:05. | :23:13. | |
before us. Well, I salute the efforts of the Minister tonight. And | :23:14. | :23:20. | |
I salute the efforts of this government and the Coalition | :23:21. | :23:24. | |
Government which preceded it in taking some steps to clamp down on | :23:25. | :23:28. | |
tax avoidance. More should be done, but they have made good steps, | :23:29. | :23:34. | |
because we need a well functioning HMRC, because we need the taxes into | :23:35. | :23:42. | |
pay for the goods we want. We need a well functioning HMRC to keep up | :23:43. | :23:47. | |
business and maintain the confidence of taxpayers. We need a well | :23:48. | :23:52. | |
functioning HMRC for effective anti-money-laundering steps and to | :23:53. | :24:00. | |
clamp down on tax evasion and to protect the revenue. And it is | :24:01. | :24:07. | |
desirable that HMRC should act efficiently. And technology is | :24:08. | :24:11. | |
changing what they and other large organisations do, so that 80% of | :24:12. | :24:15. | |
self assessment returns are now done online. That's for example. So that | :24:16. | :24:23. | |
availability of information from HMRC is greatly aided by the | :24:24. | :24:30. | |
HMRC knowledge. That is a difficult HMRC knowledge. That is a difficult | :24:31. | :24:36. | |
balancing act, between providing information to businesses and | :24:37. | :24:39. | |
individual taxpayers versus not providing tax advice and sometimes | :24:40. | :24:44. | |
that is difficult for staff. And I, as other members have paid tribute | :24:45. | :24:51. | |
to the overwhelmingly hard-working and skilful staff at HMRC around the | :24:52. | :24:56. | |
United Kingdom. And it is no criticism of them that we still have | :24:57. | :25:05. | |
a considerable tax gap. And more staff are likely to help to close | :25:06. | :25:10. | |
that tax gap. The National Audit Office estimates and 18 to one | :25:11. | :25:21. | |
return on employing extra staff. That's ?1 more in salary, ?18 more | :25:22. | :25:34. | |
in revenue. I will in a moment. HMRC itself estimates a return of 11 to | :25:35. | :25:45. | |
one. Will he agree with me that there are thousands of staff that | :25:46. | :25:48. | |
will not be able to relocate and will be lost to the revenue? | :25:49. | :25:54. | |
I do agree with that. I will come onto that in a moment. We had to | :25:55. | :26:00. | |
look at this debate and what is happening with HMRC in the context | :26:01. | :26:06. | |
of the economy and finances overall. The national debt has gone up by | :26:07. | :26:11. | |
55%, instead of taking five years to sort out it will take ten years on | :26:12. | :26:18. | |
the Government estimations. The balance of payments is the highest | :26:19. | :26:21. | |
deficit it has been in peace time, now 5% of GDP. Productivity has | :26:22. | :26:27. | |
stalled, home ownership is markedly down, it is now said we have the | :26:28. | :26:31. | |
fourth lowest of any European member state. Net household debt is rising | :26:32. | :26:37. | |
alarmingly. That is the context where we need to protect revenue. | :26:38. | :26:44. | |
There are problems, of course. In terms of the tax gaps, there are | :26:45. | :26:49. | |
problems with insufficient collectors, members of staff dealing | :26:50. | :26:55. | |
with ovation, dealing with artificial avoidance measures, there | :26:56. | :27:00. | |
is the difficulty created, I have to say by a Labour government of the | :27:01. | :27:05. | |
disastrous contract with make plea based in the Bahamas, to whom the | :27:06. | :27:13. | |
lease of the office was transferred in 2001. And the proposals we heard | :27:14. | :27:19. | |
of on the 12th of November do not address that as far as I am aware in | :27:20. | :27:24. | |
anyway. Apart from saying we are dumping all of these offices, not | :27:25. | :27:28. | |
saying what is happening to the leases and maybe the Minister can | :27:29. | :27:31. | |
tell us more about that, the intersection between these plans and | :27:32. | :27:37. | |
the wretched leases. In terms of staff numbers, they are markedly | :27:38. | :27:45. | |
down in recent years. Under the last Labour government according to the | :27:46. | :27:50. | |
Office for National Statistics, between 2007 and 2010 the number of | :27:51. | :27:56. | |
HMRC start went down 9%. Under the five years of Coalition government, | :27:57. | :28:02. | |
it went down a further 24.4%, a humourless drop of 31.4. -- | :28:03. | :28:10. | |
cumulative drop. The honourable member will also have been contacted | :28:11. | :28:17. | |
by representatives in his area, the PCS came to see me and they | :28:18. | :28:21. | |
understand HMRC is currently spending ?70 million on overtime. | :28:22. | :28:26. | |
Would he agree that indicated that they need more staff and not fewer? | :28:27. | :28:33. | |
I do agree with that. There are problems with the workforce, which | :28:34. | :28:39. | |
several members referred to. The Chief Executive wrote to me, from | :28:40. | :28:44. | |
HMRC, on the 12th of November, saying, we expect 90% of the current | :28:45. | :28:50. | |
workforce will be able to either work in a regional centre, or see | :28:51. | :28:59. | |
out their career in an HMRC office,". He reckons that -- HMRC | :29:00. | :29:09. | |
office. He reckons the remainder will not be made redundant. We had | :29:10. | :29:14. | |
reference to response times in the first two quarters of 2015, 12 | :29:15. | :29:19. | |
million calls were not answered. Half of the calls to HMRC. Only 39% | :29:20. | :29:25. | |
were answered within five minutes. In the third quarter, after a staff | :29:26. | :29:33. | |
infusion, the numbers went off to 76%. A great improvement but firstly | :29:34. | :29:43. | |
the target is 80, and in 2014-15, it was 72.5. I had to say to the | :29:44. | :29:48. | |
Government and particularly the Chancellor, who has a family | :29:49. | :29:52. | |
business, this is the worst of states. If it was a business it | :29:53. | :29:56. | |
would have gone bust with that appalling customer service. But | :29:57. | :30:01. | |
because none of us have any choices but to pay taxes, they remain in | :30:02. | :30:05. | |
business. It should not do so. It needs transforming but cutting the | :30:06. | :30:10. | |
number of staff does not seem to me and my party to be the way to do it. | :30:11. | :30:17. | |
We have, thanks to transparency, in terms of anti-money-laundering, with | :30:18. | :30:19. | |
London thankfully being a major financial centre in the world, we | :30:20. | :30:25. | |
have a big problem with the regime set up to deal with money-laundering | :30:26. | :30:31. | |
and to counteract it, the average HMRC fine in 2014-15 for | :30:32. | :30:41. | |
money-laundering, the average was ?1134, according to transparency | :30:42. | :30:44. | |
International. It seems a remarkably low figure. It is not helped by | :30:45. | :30:51. | |
accountancy having 14 different regulators involved in that. That | :30:52. | :30:55. | |
need sorting out because otherwise HMRC staff cannot do their job | :30:56. | :31:02. | |
properly in relation to anti-money laundering, let alone in relation to | :31:03. | :31:09. | |
tax evasion. As has again been referred to in this debate, June | :31:10. | :31:15. | |
2014 we have had no face to face war in centres operated by HMRC. There | :31:16. | :31:21. | |
are some teams of mobile advisers. I guess it is the man in the white van | :31:22. | :31:25. | |
dashing around Northern Ireland, northern Scotland, Caithness and | :31:26. | :31:29. | |
whatever, for a face-to-face interview. It is very | :31:30. | :31:34. | |
unsatisfactory. It does not encourage confidence in the taxpayer | :31:35. | :31:37. | |
they are getting the service they should from HMRC. It is very | :31:38. | :31:45. | |
worrying that 170 officers are being put down to 13. He will recognise | :31:46. | :31:52. | |
this is a massive programme involving 56,000 staff, closing 140 | :31:53. | :31:59. | |
officers, relocating on 20 sites which have not yet been acquired in | :32:00. | :32:05. | |
a five-year period. In the 2015 civil service staff survey almost | :32:06. | :32:09. | |
18% of HMRC staff thought the management were not able to manage | :32:10. | :32:15. | |
change effectively. Does he agree that there are big risks in this | :32:16. | :32:19. | |
programme and it is potentially a disaster waiting to happen? I think | :32:20. | :32:26. | |
there are big risks and part of that is to do with insufficient funding, | :32:27. | :32:33. | |
staffing and numbers of officers. I regret to say that in my | :32:34. | :32:36. | |
constituency, crowd house will be closing. That is the second and | :32:37. | :32:40. | |
final office in my constituency to close. The only silver lining in my | :32:41. | :32:46. | |
region is the specialist office in Telford, in Shropshire down the | :32:47. | :32:51. | |
road, will continue to be an HMRC IT headquarters. What is likely to | :32:52. | :32:57. | |
happen with HMRC with these relocations and closures is HMRC is | :32:58. | :33:05. | |
haemorrhaging staff. I will in a minute. HMRC employs a great number | :33:06. | :33:12. | |
of very specialist staff, unlike quite a lot of government | :33:13. | :33:16. | |
departments, in Treasury, a lot of staff are very mobile, there is a | :33:17. | :33:20. | |
ready that in the private sector, which often pays more. He has been | :33:21. | :33:28. | |
most generous. Does he agree with me that watch HMRC will also have to do | :33:29. | :33:33. | |
is publish an impact assessment with the social and economic changes and | :33:34. | :33:36. | |
staff that might have a disability and caring responsibility? I do | :33:37. | :33:44. | |
agree and more on that in a couple of minutes. Views on whether the | :33:45. | :33:50. | |
closure programme is wise or not vary. The financial Secretary to the | :33:51. | :33:58. | |
Treasury and myself last week again sourced the Institute of directors | :33:59. | :34:04. | |
and again, it is paraphrased, they welcome this move, because he thinks | :34:05. | :34:09. | |
the technology has transformed and should transform the way we operate | :34:10. | :34:15. | |
with HMRC and it should be driven by efficiency and so on. The | :34:16. | :34:18. | |
Association of chartered accountants is broadly in favour of this kind of | :34:19. | :34:23. | |
change. They say that it is reasonable to restructure the | :34:24. | :34:28. | |
officers and we support a higher skill. That is the Association of | :34:29. | :34:35. | |
chartered accountants. Correspondingly, the trade union, | :34:36. | :34:39. | |
PCS, referred to earlier, they do a great job of representing members at | :34:40. | :34:43. | |
HMRC and across government, having to say the least, grave misgivings | :34:44. | :34:50. | |
about this programme. And the Association of revenue and Customs, | :34:51. | :34:53. | |
part of the FDA. They have grave misgivings about this programme. | :34:54. | :34:58. | |
They are representing senior people in HMRC. Thank you for giving way. | :34:59. | :35:08. | |
Does he feel adequate consultation of this decision was taken, and | :35:09. | :35:15. | |
given full regard of the facts? I do not. More about that in a couple of | :35:16. | :35:20. | |
minutes. We have got the IOD saying they broadly support this kind of | :35:21. | :35:22. | |
change and the unions saying they have grave misgivings. The chartered | :35:23. | :35:27. | |
Institute of taxation is hardly known as a supporter of the Labour | :35:28. | :35:31. | |
party or any political party, or the Scottish National Party, saying that | :35:32. | :35:36. | |
this is the president, tax professionals alike will be anxious | :35:37. | :35:39. | |
that a public body that is troubling to me the public facing service | :35:40. | :35:44. | |
targets has announced it is about to lose many staff and close local | :35:45. | :35:50. | |
offices. The Institute of Chartered Accountants in England and Wales, I | :35:51. | :35:53. | |
do not know what the position is in Scotland, they say the timing of the | :35:54. | :35:57. | |
changes could stretch HMRC to breaking point. That restructuring | :35:58. | :36:05. | |
HMRC will be distracting for the leadership. I will give way. Does he | :36:06. | :36:14. | |
know also, would he agree that the distribution of well-qualified civil | :36:15. | :36:18. | |
servants will alter fundamentally and it is simply not on saying to | :36:19. | :36:22. | |
unqualified civil servants in North Wales that they had to go to | :36:23. | :36:25. | |
Liverpool and they will be no tax offices left in North Wales? I do | :36:26. | :36:30. | |
tend to agree with my honourable friend. I am not making any | :36:31. | :36:34. | |
commitment that we would keep every tax office open but keeping it in | :36:35. | :36:40. | |
proportion, by 2010 we had three and 93 tax offices collecting well over | :36:41. | :36:44. | |
on average ?1 billion each. On a business it seems you would keep an | :36:45. | :36:50. | |
office open bringing in ?1 billion. I have listened carefully to his art | :36:51. | :36:55. | |
on. Can he tell us on the half of the opposition family tax offices he | :36:56. | :36:59. | |
thinks we should have? Do we go back to 310? Is 170 about right? Should | :37:00. | :37:08. | |
it be lower? What is his number? This issue is a classic case of this | :37:09. | :37:14. | |
government putting the cart before the horse. They announced the | :37:15. | :37:18. | |
closure programme before getting adequate information. For example, | :37:19. | :37:23. | |
we need a public consultation on this kind of change, we need a | :37:24. | :37:28. | |
business consultation and we need Parliamentary scrutiny of, for | :37:29. | :37:33. | |
example by the Public Accounts Committee and the Treasury select | :37:34. | :37:37. | |
committee. Only going through that process, could I and I venture other | :37:38. | :37:43. | |
members form a view as to how many offices should be distributed around | :37:44. | :37:45. | |
the United Kingdom, how many they should have, given the changes | :37:46. | :37:50. | |
brought about by technology, the desire for efficiency and also | :37:51. | :37:53. | |
a customer facing service. I thank a customer facing service. I thank | :37:54. | :37:59. | |
my honourable friend for giving way. He has been very generous | :38:00. | :38:04. | |
today. I accept the point that there has not been meaningful consultation | :38:05. | :38:08. | |
and there has not been enough scrutiny of the financial case. Does | :38:09. | :38:15. | |
he agree with me that where an alternative financial economic and | :38:16. | :38:21. | |
social system can be put together, it should be reconsidered? He is a | :38:22. | :38:27. | |
very experienced and versatile member of the House. Can I remind | :38:28. | :38:31. | |
colleagues that the convention, fairly long-standing, is the | :38:32. | :38:35. | |
opposition front bench spokesperson for the party whose opposition date | :38:36. | :38:43. | |
it is not would ordinarily make a front bench speech of about ten | :38:44. | :38:48. | |
minutes. OK, he was a little over that. I am conscious there are 18 | :38:49. | :38:52. | |
people waiting to speak. It is not a conventional opposition day. It is | :38:53. | :38:57. | |
the SNP opposition day. A brief contribution is absolutely right and | :38:58. | :39:00. | |
proper but we do need to get onto the backbenchers pretty sharply. I | :39:01. | :39:05. | |
am grateful. I had finished but for that intervention and I will respond | :39:06. | :39:08. | |
to that intervention very briefly. I agree with my honourable friend from | :39:09. | :39:12. | |
Bradford. I think the minister was open and responding to the member | :39:13. | :39:16. | |
for Shipley. That is the kind of investigation we need for, before | :39:17. | :39:20. | |
announcing sweeping changes, we should have consultation, | :39:21. | :39:23. | |
investigation and a lot more publicly available evidence. He | :39:24. | :39:27. | |
confirmed his reputation as a gentleman. That is very, very much | :39:28. | :39:33. | |
appreciated. He has taken me very literally. We will have to start | :39:34. | :39:39. | |
with a 5 minute the net. I am in a difficult position. -- limit. I did | :39:40. | :39:45. | |
not agree much with what the member for Livingstone said in terms of | :39:46. | :39:47. | |
overall analysis about the situation. I tend to agree with the | :39:48. | :39:53. | |
view of the minister that I would prefer to save jobs rather than | :39:54. | :39:56. | |
buildings if the choice comes down to that. But I do think the way in | :39:57. | :40:01. | |
which HMRC have gone about this has been rather cack-handed. I do not | :40:02. | :40:08. | |
feel able to support the Government either in what it is doing and I | :40:09. | :40:11. | |
will have to reflect further before the division at seven o'clock. The | :40:12. | :40:16. | |
point I would like to focus on if I may is about the decision in west | :40:17. | :40:21. | |
Yorkshire. In Shipley, we have a tax office which is going to close, it | :40:22. | :40:27. | |
employs 924 staff and in Bradford there two more offices, one, 358 and | :40:28. | :40:35. | |
another employs 632. HMRC currently employs a total of 2300 people in | :40:36. | :40:42. | |
Bradford district. Closing down all of the offices in Bradford and | :40:43. | :40:46. | |
locating a regional hub in Leeds, that takes absolutely no sense | :40:47. | :40:50. | |
whatsoever. My starting point here, the Minister will say everybody is | :40:51. | :40:54. | |
going to be not in my backyard and argue for the area and he has got to | :40:55. | :40:58. | |
take a larger view of the world and I accept all that, I would not decry | :40:59. | :41:06. | |
any of that, but what I am arguing is what produces the best value for | :41:07. | :41:10. | |
money for the taxpayer in the UK? That should be at the forefront of | :41:11. | :41:14. | |
what this government is trying to do. | :41:15. | :41:20. | |
It's locating a regional hub in a place which will be more expensive | :41:21. | :41:26. | |
for the taxpayer than a feasible alternative. If this is about value | :41:27. | :41:30. | |
for money for the taxpayer, why on earth would it make that decision? | :41:31. | :41:33. | |
It should make decisions based on what would be cheapest of the | :41:34. | :41:38. | |
taxpayer. I want to explain to the Minister why it would be more | :41:39. | :41:42. | |
sensible to have a regional hub based in Bradford rather than Leeds | :41:43. | :41:49. | |
and the flaws in the decision. Firstly, much lower accommodation | :41:50. | :41:53. | |
costs. The costs in Bradford are at least 20% cheaper than they are in | :41:54. | :41:57. | |
Leeds, which is a considerable saving for the taxpayer I don't | :41:58. | :42:02. | |
think he should turn his nose up at in that way. There's already, | :42:03. | :42:07. | |
probably from most of those staff moved, lower commuting distances | :42:08. | :42:11. | |
because so many people from the Bradford district. It would be | :42:12. | :42:15. | |
better for the majority to stay in the Bradford district. And it seems | :42:16. | :42:19. | |
to be on the basis, and the Minister may want to confirm this, that the | :42:20. | :42:26. | |
only way to recruit top staff and staff of a certain ability is to | :42:27. | :42:29. | |
locate the offices in Leeds rather than Bradford. Setting aside how | :42:30. | :42:34. | |
insulting that is to Bradford, to be perfectly frank, it's also not based | :42:35. | :42:39. | |
on any facts. It's complete and utter bunk. I have one of the most | :42:40. | :42:46. | |
technologically advanced businesses in the hall of the country in Salter | :42:47. | :42:53. | |
in my constituency, the biggest provider of set-top boxes in the | :42:54. | :42:58. | |
world. It hasn't had any problem recruiting high-level staff to the | :42:59. | :43:01. | |
Bradford district and to work in Shipley. If the argument made any | :43:02. | :43:07. | |
sense, he would be saying, companies like that could never be located in | :43:08. | :43:12. | |
Bradford, they would have to go to Leeds to get the calibre of staff | :43:13. | :43:17. | |
they need. The thinking HR see how started with is absolutely floored. | :43:18. | :43:22. | |
They don't need to go to Leeds to attract top-quality staff. If that | :43:23. | :43:26. | |
hasn't persuaded him, can I suggest heat here is a visit to any of the | :43:27. | :43:31. | |
train stations on the Airedale line in the morning and takes a visit to | :43:32. | :43:36. | |
Leeds station at rush hour. What he will find is there are literally | :43:37. | :43:41. | |
thousands and thousands of people every morning who are living in | :43:42. | :43:46. | |
Airedale, living in the Bradford district, who are living there and | :43:47. | :43:50. | |
would presumably prefer to work there, who are making the journey | :43:51. | :43:56. | |
into leads to a job. I'm sure they are already attracted to the | :43:57. | :44:00. | |
Bradford district, they'll already living in the Bradford district. If | :44:01. | :44:04. | |
the argument made any sense, they would all be living in Leeds. They | :44:05. | :44:09. | |
wouldn't be living in Bradford. They are not. Bradford is a place where | :44:10. | :44:15. | |
many people live, many people choose to live. It's ridiculous for HMRC to | :44:16. | :44:21. | |
have this argument that the only way you can attract quality staff is to | :44:22. | :44:25. | |
base yourself in Leeds. It seems to me that this is all about what's in | :44:26. | :44:32. | |
the best interests of the London-based staff at HMRC. I'm | :44:33. | :44:36. | |
delighted the honourable gentleman for Bradford East and Bradford South | :44:37. | :44:39. | |
and me will work together and I hope the Minister will listen to the | :44:40. | :44:45. | |
Argent and changes mind. I want to begin by saying, given the time | :44:46. | :44:50. | |
constraints, it goes to show how important this SNP motion is and I | :44:51. | :44:56. | |
hope there will be future time to seriously sleek debate this issue. | :44:57. | :45:03. | |
In Dundee we have over 800 staff employed at 2-1's two facilities. I | :45:04. | :45:10. | |
met with some of these staff last Friday way they relate their fees | :45:11. | :45:14. | |
over the most recent announcements affecting job losses. -- their | :45:15. | :45:22. | |
fears. This is completely at odds with what's happening in Dundee just | :45:23. | :45:28. | |
now, which is a city undergoing a ?1 billion regeneration project, one of | :45:29. | :45:31. | |
the most extensive in these islands, as well as bucking the national | :45:32. | :45:36. | |
trend with employment on the up. At the stroke of a pen, this government | :45:37. | :45:41. | |
is putting at risk the progress the city has been making to create and | :45:42. | :45:46. | |
protect jobs. This has been done without public consultation or | :45:47. | :45:51. | |
ministerial sign off. Civil servants, HMRC staff, will not be | :45:52. | :45:55. | |
covered by a ministerial commitment to know who redundancies. We | :45:56. | :45:58. | |
understand 130 jobs will be stripped from the city. Ten years ago there | :45:59. | :46:07. | |
were over 200 HMRC staff. That office is now half the space and it | :46:08. | :46:12. | |
looks like it will be boarded up by 2018. Employees, some of whom have | :46:13. | :46:17. | |
30 years experience, have been abandoned. This office currently has | :46:18. | :46:24. | |
only two members of staff at grade six or seven and I disagree with the | :46:25. | :46:27. | |
minister when he says they will continue training. They used to be | :46:28. | :46:32. | |
ten key staff at six and seven and four trainees, now we are down to | :46:33. | :46:36. | |
two. Staff have been told the best outcome they can hope for is | :46:37. | :46:41. | |
transferred to Glasgow and Edinburgh. If HMRC chooses to | :46:42. | :46:45. | |
re-employ these staff, and this is not automatic, impacting them and | :46:46. | :46:49. | |
their families will be dramatic. Most employees will be out within | :46:50. | :46:55. | |
hours commute in the regional offices in Glasgow and Edinburgh. By | :46:56. | :47:03. | |
HMRC's own definition, it will be asking staff to do something it | :47:04. | :47:07. | |
doesn't consider it self to be reasonable. Simultaneously... | :47:08. | :47:14. | |
Caledonia house is set to be shut down, but we've been told the new | :47:15. | :47:19. | |
regional centres will not open until 2020 or 2021 at the earliest. What | :47:20. | :47:26. | |
plans, if any, does HMRC have further staff at Caledonia house? In | :47:27. | :47:32. | |
a letter recently received, it stated as Caledonia house is some | :47:33. | :47:37. | |
distance away from the new regional centre, our employees will not | :47:38. | :47:39. | |
automatically move to the new regional centre. Black and white. | :47:40. | :47:44. | |
HMRC can offer new guarantees to job safety. They will be forced to apply | :47:45. | :47:48. | |
for a job at the new regional centres. If that's not a trail of a | :47:49. | :47:53. | |
loyal and dedicated force, I don't know what is. -- a betrayal. There | :47:54. | :48:00. | |
are ten couples working under the same roof. It's not just an impact | :48:01. | :48:05. | |
on one employee, it impacts couples. A devastating impact on | :48:06. | :48:09. | |
families. The rationale of closing it only is shrouded in mystery. HMRC | :48:10. | :48:16. | |
state the closure date the Caledonia house reflects the timing of when we | :48:17. | :48:19. | |
will restructure the work currently rillettes -- done here. Two senior | :48:20. | :48:25. | |
officials who visited on 17th of November could not tell staff how | :48:26. | :48:28. | |
these plans will play out. What are we to take from this? As one local | :48:29. | :48:37. | |
union represented did put it to me, mixed messages or misinformation are | :48:38. | :48:39. | |
the only assumptions that can be made. On the point of | :48:40. | :48:45. | |
misinformation, does my honourable friend share with me is the concern | :48:46. | :48:49. | |
that last year during the independence referendum the better | :48:50. | :48:54. | |
together parties were quick to point out that the only way of securing | :48:55. | :49:00. | |
HMRC jobs was by voting no. Was that a betrayal? In one word, yes. It is | :49:01. | :49:08. | |
indeed difficult to avoid a conclusion that HMRC on making this | :49:09. | :49:13. | |
up as they go along. Turning my attention to signal house, there are | :49:14. | :49:18. | |
650 people working there who have been offered nothing about the | :49:19. | :49:25. | |
potential move. We know that the DWP has undertaken its own potentially | :49:26. | :49:30. | |
far-reaching review in the face of what are likely to be swingeing cuts | :49:31. | :49:34. | |
in tomorrow's Autumn Statement which could well see it pulling out of the | :49:35. | :49:38. | |
city altogether. The implied deserve better. They deserve to know the | :49:39. | :49:43. | |
truth. Dundee cannot afford to lose these highly skilled jobs. These | :49:44. | :49:47. | |
plans as they stand represent an absolute hammer blow to Dundee with | :49:48. | :49:52. | |
at least 130 skilled jobs being cut by a Tory government with no mandate | :49:53. | :49:57. | |
in Scotland. As I've outlined, there is also no clarity about the 650 | :49:58. | :50:02. | |
jobs in my constituency and whether they will be transferred to DWP. | :50:03. | :50:10. | |
Families across the city will be devastated by this news and worried | :50:11. | :50:12. | |
about the future and I cannot stress enough my opposition to this. As a | :50:13. | :50:19. | |
newly elected member of the Public Accounts Committee I've had the | :50:20. | :50:22. | |
opportunity to look closely at HMRC's efforts to increase the | :50:23. | :50:25. | |
amount of tax they collect and how they plan to do better. In our | :50:26. | :50:29. | |
latest report from November the public against committee have been | :50:30. | :50:34. | |
clear that it's our opinion that HMRC has continued to fail its | :50:35. | :50:37. | |
customer service standards and if it is to collect more tax, modern, fit | :50:38. | :50:41. | |
for purpose systems must be in place. The reality is that at the | :50:42. | :50:49. | |
moment HMRC's 58,000 employees are spread over 170 offices, many a | :50:50. | :50:55. | |
latency of the 1960s and 70s. They range in staff numbers from fewer | :50:56. | :51:00. | |
than ten to more than 6000. In order to meet standards and increase tax | :51:01. | :51:04. | |
revenues, the service needs to be providing its customers with modern | :51:05. | :51:08. | |
services at a lower cost the taxpayer. This year HMRC recruited | :51:09. | :51:14. | |
3000 additional staff. That was into customer facing teams. These staff | :51:15. | :51:35. | |
are providing services in the evenings weekends. Building capacity | :51:36. | :51:37. | |
outside normal working hours, which helps the taxpayer sort out her tax | :51:38. | :51:39. | |
payments. This is a step forward with a major Government body | :51:40. | :51:41. | |
changing its working practices in order to meet its customer demand. | :51:42. | :51:44. | |
The reality is many more customers now want to work out their tax | :51:45. | :51:47. | |
payments online at a time of their choosing. The investment by 2-1 into | :51:48. | :51:49. | |
digital services, simpler, more user-friendly Bortles have working | :51:50. | :51:50. | |
with accountancy software designers to make patch -- packages | :51:51. | :51:53. | |
automatically link into reporting systems is freeing up staff to deal | :51:54. | :52:00. | |
with more complex tax problems. I thank you for giving way. Isn't it | :52:01. | :52:04. | |
right that already 80% of customers of filling in their tax forms | :52:05. | :52:09. | |
online? It does prove that modernising is the right approach. I | :52:10. | :52:15. | |
thank my honourable friend for her intervention. That's right. We have | :52:16. | :52:21. | |
to be mindful of that is HMRC moves forward in this digital world. HMRC | :52:22. | :52:28. | |
collected 51 point -- ?580 billion from taxpayers in 2013-14. Over the | :52:29. | :52:33. | |
last five years continuously increasing tax take has been matched | :52:34. | :52:39. | |
by reducing running costs. I believe the Chancellor is totally committed | :52:40. | :52:44. | |
to supporting HMRC to do its job better and the Budget in July gave | :52:45. | :52:50. | |
the ten one a further 800 millions -- ?800 million. It collected a | :52:51. | :52:55. | |
further ?7 billion in tax take. The tax gap will continue to need the | :52:56. | :53:01. | |
most modern systems and skilled staff. I believe the move to modern | :53:02. | :53:05. | |
regional centres across the UK will bring together the skills and | :53:06. | :53:10. | |
efficiency of resource and talents to maximise tax collection. HMRC | :53:11. | :53:13. | |
expects the majority of its existing staff to be put a move that the | :53:14. | :53:18. | |
regional centres with a 10-year phasing to minimise redundancies. | :53:19. | :53:22. | |
They will eventually be an organisation with fewer staff, but I | :53:23. | :53:26. | |
hope the programme of change is being well-managed and I will | :53:27. | :53:30. | |
continue to monitor it, as will the Public Accounts Committee. I have | :53:31. | :53:33. | |
concerns about the regional centre plans. I questioned the need for two | :53:34. | :53:38. | |
London based sites in Stratford in London when there is no base in East | :53:39. | :53:42. | |
Anglia, for instance, where running costs would be lower. In the | :53:43. | :53:47. | |
north-east we have a major centre at Longbenton. It supports a wide | :53:48. | :53:51. | |
variety of tax collecting divisions. The changes in staffing levels and | :53:52. | :54:08. | |
working hours is starting to improve customer service there and it's Kiwi | :54:09. | :54:10. | |
make sure HMRC does maximise the investment in their quality of staff | :54:11. | :54:13. | |
and effective costs across the UK to get the maximum benefit. The | :54:14. | :54:15. | |
modernisation of HMRC is vital if the service is to continue to reduce | :54:16. | :54:18. | |
the tax gap to help us pay for the public services. We all want to see | :54:19. | :54:24. | |
them. To transform its service to customers and clamp down further on | :54:25. | :54:28. | |
the minority still trying to cheat the system. Thank you. Mr Speaker, | :54:29. | :54:38. | |
thank you very much. As far as I can tell, Her Majesty's revenues and | :54:39. | :54:42. | |
custom, on the 12th of November, announced in building our future | :54:43. | :54:45. | |
their location strategy. As far as I'm concerned, that's the precursor | :54:46. | :54:52. | |
to the end 50 years of my constituency's links with the civil | :54:53. | :54:58. | |
service as a major employer. More than 2500 hard-working, committed, | :54:59. | :55:05. | |
loyal and productive staff in four sites will be affected by the | :55:06. | :55:11. | |
announcement. Almost 700 of my constituents. Many are my friends. | :55:12. | :55:15. | |
Many of them work in specialist and complex areas of investigation and | :55:16. | :55:20. | |
administration. And regrettably, I found out about the detail, and I | :55:21. | :55:25. | |
use the word details loosely, in a very short letter at 2:14pm on | :55:26. | :55:31. | |
November 12. From the Chief Executive. The day of a recess. | :55:32. | :55:38. | |
2:14pm. It said I'm writing to let you know that HMRC has today | :55:39. | :55:42. | |
announced the next step in our 10-year modernisation programme to | :55:43. | :55:46. | |
create a tax authority fit for the future. Committed to high quality | :55:47. | :55:51. | |
jobs and the creation of 13 new regional centres serving every | :55:52. | :55:56. | |
region and every part of the nation. You try telling that to the hundreds | :55:57. | :56:01. | |
of people who will lose their job. And the thousands who will be moved | :56:02. | :56:03. | |
out of my town centre. It seems every Tom, Dick and Harry | :56:04. | :56:15. | |
knew about it before I did. That seems disrespectful, not to me, but | :56:16. | :56:21. | |
the people in my constituency. The thousands affected by this and the | :56:22. | :56:24. | |
people I represent and that is a disgrace. On reading the letter it | :56:25. | :56:28. | |
almost felt like I should be grateful to HMRC continuing to | :56:29. | :56:34. | |
employ people anywhere to collect tax. The letter made the | :56:35. | :56:38. | |
announcement sound like the service was expanding rather than | :56:39. | :56:44. | |
contracting. I do not know how it did that, but it did. As I | :56:45. | :56:50. | |
understand it, almost 170 offices will be closed and moving 13 | :56:51. | :56:54. | |
regional centres and four specialist sites in the next five years. And | :56:55. | :57:01. | |
longer up to 2021, by 2021 they will be 35 locations. Four staff in | :57:02. | :57:06. | |
Bootle, this is particularly shocking. This house is exacted a | :57:07. | :57:14. | |
close 2018-19. Followed by the triad, St John's house in 2019-20. | :57:15. | :57:19. | |
Golden house will also close. This is a significant and devastating | :57:20. | :57:25. | |
impact in many cases on a significant number of people, the | :57:26. | :57:29. | |
staff and their families. It seems staff should be grateful they are | :57:30. | :57:34. | |
having a job to go to, even if it has a major effect on their lives. | :57:35. | :57:38. | |
That is the implication. Be grateful you have got a job. That is a | :57:39. | :57:44. | |
disgrace as well. Many members will face additional costs, car park and | :57:45. | :57:48. | |
charges, a detrimental effect on family life, travelling to a place, | :57:49. | :57:53. | |
to a regional centre they do not even know where it is going to be. | :57:54. | :57:58. | |
You can make the announcement, say we are going to these regional | :57:59. | :58:02. | |
centres but nobody can say where they are. For me and my | :58:03. | :58:07. | |
constituency, wherever it is, if it is not in the centre of my town that | :58:08. | :58:13. | |
will be absolutely devastating. There are many questions that have | :58:14. | :58:17. | |
to be answered. Before I ask some of these questions, the professional | :58:18. | :58:25. | |
site said professional bodies are sceptical about whether the plans to | :58:26. | :58:30. | |
close 137 offices and so on, cut real estate cost, save 100 million, | :58:31. | :58:34. | |
will deliver improvements in customer service levels. There are | :58:35. | :58:39. | |
concerns the changes could stretch the tax department to breaking | :58:40. | :58:43. | |
point. There are many questions and I will ask... These cuts will put | :58:44. | :58:53. | |
HMRC under even more pressure at a time when more resources are needed | :58:54. | :58:56. | |
to mitigate the ongoing problems that HMRC and concentric sour | :58:57. | :59:04. | |
causing. Numerous people have contacted me, about the inadequacies | :59:05. | :59:07. | |
of both the departments and I am sure these problems will only be | :59:08. | :59:13. | |
exacerbated by these cuts. You are right. And the idea that by closing | :59:14. | :59:20. | |
these offices we will get more tax and tackle fraud is an absolute | :59:21. | :59:26. | |
fantasy. So, some questions. When will the new locations for the new | :59:27. | :59:32. | |
regional centres be announced? As a quality impact assessment been | :59:33. | :59:37. | |
carried out on the various people affected, particularly in my case, | :59:38. | :59:42. | |
four sites? When did the department establish which sites would close | :59:43. | :59:48. | |
and why was it not subjected to consultation to the Public Accounts | :59:49. | :59:50. | |
Committee, the Treasury select committee? The impact of additional | :59:51. | :59:54. | |
travel costs, will that be thanked in the -- factored in to | :59:55. | :00:00. | |
departmental deals? What about the business consultation taking place | :00:01. | :00:06. | |
ahead of these announcements? As far as I'm concerned, absolutely none. | :00:07. | :00:10. | |
Absolutely none. At the following losses been taken into account? | :00:11. | :00:13. | |
Redundancy, income tax, local business tax, job-seeker allowance, | :00:14. | :00:19. | |
income support claims, insurance, divisions and the list goes on... My | :00:20. | :00:24. | |
constituency in particular, what would happen to the 136 benefit and | :00:25. | :00:29. | |
credit staff aced at triad? When the House closes, how will they | :00:30. | :00:35. | |
accommodate the staff? What will the cost be to make building adjustment | :00:36. | :00:38. | |
on a temporary basis until 2020? What would the cost of altering the | :00:39. | :00:43. | |
software moving profiles around the site at transition and so on and the | :00:44. | :00:48. | |
questions go on... You know what? We have not had one answer whatsoever | :00:49. | :00:53. | |
to any one of those questions. I demand answers to those questions. | :00:54. | :01:01. | |
Sir David Amis. I wish to make the case for Alexander house in South | :01:02. | :01:04. | |
end not only to remain open and keep its jobs but expand. I'm beginning | :01:05. | :01:11. | |
to think my honourable friend for Berwick-upon-Tweed in her address | :01:12. | :01:15. | |
may be would be a supporter of Southend becoming the regional | :01:16. | :01:19. | |
site. But a bit like the honourable member for Bootle, if I say to my | :01:20. | :01:25. | |
honourable friend the Minister, I knew nothing about this planned | :01:26. | :01:29. | |
closure. We have had a private chat about this. I do not blame him. He | :01:30. | :01:36. | |
is an excellent minister. In fact, we have a very strong Treasury team | :01:37. | :01:40. | |
at the moment. Southend is shared of course between myself and my | :01:41. | :01:50. | |
honourable friend in Rochford. The constituency has as many people as | :01:51. | :01:54. | |
my honourable friend has working in the building. I have been on the | :01:55. | :01:58. | |
back foot on this issue but I cannot be back foot any more. I am on the | :01:59. | :02:01. | |
front foot now. To remind my honourable friend, the minister, two | :02:02. | :02:06. | |
years ago, a visited Alexander house. We had a wonderful tour of | :02:07. | :02:11. | |
the building. I think he learned first-hand these strong tradition of | :02:12. | :02:17. | |
loyalties there are among the staff of Alexander house, superb | :02:18. | :02:20. | |
expertise, I think they are the second or third biggest employer in | :02:21. | :02:24. | |
the constituency, the borough of Southend. My honourable friend | :02:25. | :02:30. | |
seemed a very impressed with everything that he heard. Indeed, | :02:31. | :02:36. | |
when Her Majesty the Queen visited a fuel years ago, I know that she was | :02:37. | :02:39. | |
very impressed with everything she was shown. -- few years ago. I | :02:40. | :02:45. | |
absolutely support the overall strategy. Because the Treasury team | :02:46. | :02:52. | |
are doing a wonderful job sorting out the public finances in the light | :02:53. | :02:56. | |
of the terrible mess we were left with in 2010. I accept the overall | :02:57. | :03:02. | |
strategy. But I do say to my honourable friend, I was born in | :03:03. | :03:10. | |
Stratford, and I hate to be in the position of pitting one area against | :03:11. | :03:14. | |
another area and the member for West Ham is a splendid colleague. At the | :03:15. | :03:19. | |
moment, Mr Speaker, I think Stratford gets everything. It had | :03:20. | :03:27. | |
the Olympic Games, the Bill which I chaired, my football team, West Ham. | :03:28. | :03:32. | |
I am loathe to sit by and remain silent, given that my honourable | :03:33. | :03:38. | |
friend the member for Berwick-upon-Tweed spoke about East | :03:39. | :03:40. | |
Anglia and what was the logic of having it in Stratford, I do not see | :03:41. | :03:45. | |
it. I would have thought on economy of scale, Southend was entirely the | :03:46. | :03:50. | |
right place. As it stands, at the moment, we in Southend will lose | :03:51. | :03:57. | |
1265 jobs. Absolutely devastating. I'm also told Southend will continue | :03:58. | :04:04. | |
as a transitional office for staff at other nearby offices which will | :04:05. | :04:09. | |
close before Southend. I do not know how long my honourable friend the | :04:10. | :04:12. | |
Minister when he comes to summarise, or his colleague, if they will say | :04:13. | :04:17. | |
Southend will be a transitional office, but I imagine that once | :04:18. | :04:22. | |
these other employees have moved to Southend, they are not going to want | :04:23. | :04:26. | |
to leave. As we know, Southend is the premier seaside resort in the | :04:27. | :04:30. | |
country. It is the alternative city of culture 2017. And I do know from | :04:31. | :04:38. | |
contact I have had with the local authority that Southend will offer | :04:39. | :04:45. | |
the Treasury a very, very attractive deal if my honourable friend the | :04:46. | :04:50. | |
Minister agrees to having Southend as a regional site. I am delighted | :04:51. | :04:56. | |
the Minister has agreed to meet our honourable friend, the member for | :04:57. | :05:02. | |
Rochford and Southend East. And I hope in these conversations we can | :05:03. | :05:06. | |
have a detailed discussion about travel arrangements, possible | :05:07. | :05:11. | |
redundancy payments, but I say again to my honourable friend, I would ask | :05:12. | :05:18. | |
him to think again and I hope that I and my honourable friend can | :05:19. | :05:23. | |
persuade him to have the regional site in Southend. Thank you, Mr | :05:24. | :05:30. | |
Speaker. I am pleased to have the opportunity to take part in this | :05:31. | :05:36. | |
debate and put on record the anger felt by my constituents, who have | :05:37. | :05:41. | |
for years worked incredibly hard in the tax office and also the disquiet | :05:42. | :05:44. | |
felt across the town with these proposals to close down the biggest | :05:45. | :05:51. | |
employer and relocate elsewhere. All of this comes, Mr Speaker, has | :05:52. | :05:55. | |
honourable members have said with little in the way of explanation and | :05:56. | :05:58. | |
even less in the way of consultation. On any view at all, | :05:59. | :06:05. | |
the announcement two weeks ago about HMRC offices was a very significant | :06:06. | :06:10. | |
and potentially will cause immense destruction to the staff affected, | :06:11. | :06:13. | |
for the communities in which the tax offices are currently based, and the | :06:14. | :06:18. | |
services HMRC provide in collecting taxes. It is astonishing to me the | :06:19. | :06:23. | |
Government thinks it is an announcement which does not merit a | :06:24. | :06:29. | |
ministerial statement. I have received no correspondence from HMRC | :06:30. | :06:32. | |
so I feel like I have missed out a little bit. My colleague Jimmy | :06:33. | :06:37. | |
Hepburn received a letter similar to one of my colleagues, full of | :06:38. | :06:42. | |
management speak rather than information. There were no | :06:43. | :06:45. | |
Parliamentary debate until we brought this one, PCS | :06:46. | :06:49. | |
representatives were not consulted about the criteria by HMRC, or the | :06:50. | :06:56. | |
outlying decisions, and they do not agree with either. I do not think it | :06:57. | :07:00. | |
is good enough. It is such a big moment for HMRC and its star. HMRC | :07:01. | :07:08. | |
claims ?100 million is regenerated by 2035. Despite not knowing where | :07:09. | :07:12. | |
these new city centre sites will actually be and how much they will | :07:13. | :07:18. | |
cost. If HMRC has such confidence with the savings that it will make | :07:19. | :07:21. | |
and it will claim benefits to service standards, it should have | :07:22. | :07:24. | |
nothing to be afraid of with extensive scrutiny. Let's have this | :07:25. | :07:29. | |
extensive scrutiny. Will be governed agreed to a full debate of these are | :07:30. | :07:34. | |
detailed proposals here in Parliament, to both public | :07:35. | :07:37. | |
consultation and full consultation with PCS and an agreement that | :07:38. | :07:41. | |
increment nation will be paused while all this is under way? -- in | :07:42. | :07:47. | |
the meditation will be paused. It is a work -- in fermentation -- | :07:48. | :07:58. | |
undertaking will be paused. It will be directly impacted when you have | :07:59. | :08:03. | |
the factor of IT staff and contractors and catering and | :08:04. | :08:06. | |
claiming staff. Frustratingly, between the correspondence and | :08:07. | :08:11. | |
contradictory information, so many questions remain unanswered. The | :08:12. | :08:17. | |
HMRC letter to my colleague, Jimmy, which is all most identical to the | :08:18. | :08:20. | |
letter received by the member for Wolverhampton South West, it said | :08:21. | :08:24. | |
90% of the current workforce, including the majority of those | :08:25. | :08:28. | |
working in the constituency will be welcome to other work in the | :08:29. | :08:33. | |
regional centre, or see out their career in the HMRC others. As well | :08:34. | :08:37. | |
as the objections raised by my honourable friend, how big is that | :08:38. | :08:41. | |
majority to continue to work in HMRC? That is a grave disparity. The | :08:42. | :08:47. | |
government has said there will be no forced redundancies but on the other | :08:48. | :08:51. | |
hand, workers have been told there are no voluntary packages available | :08:52. | :08:55. | |
to them. Given that we know the gum and plans to cut -- the -- given | :08:56. | :09:02. | |
what we know about the Government plans, compensation will be needed. | :09:03. | :09:11. | |
They ask if it is a coincidence that unacceptable travel distances, it | :09:12. | :09:14. | |
should be timed to the detriment of staff and why our travel allowances | :09:15. | :09:19. | |
limited to 3-5 years. What about those already committing long | :09:20. | :09:25. | |
distances already and why are they not allowed to choose other | :09:26. | :09:32. | |
locations? Will they be options of home working and other solutions and | :09:33. | :09:35. | |
measures for retraining and employment? We need so much more | :09:36. | :09:41. | |
detail before we can judge. People need to know when exactly they are | :09:42. | :09:46. | |
expected to move. Is it soon or at the end of a five-year period, | :09:47. | :09:50. | |
between most importantly, is there a job moving with them, or are they | :09:51. | :09:55. | |
moving to a new job, not just with location, but also the claim that | :09:56. | :09:59. | |
people will be able to develop careers up to senior levels, but my | :10:00. | :10:04. | |
constituency people are afraid of poorer quality work... On so many | :10:05. | :10:10. | |
levels it does not seem to be a well thought out plan and it should go | :10:11. | :10:15. | |
back to the drawing board. What is particularly perplexing is some of | :10:16. | :10:19. | |
the regional centres proposed will have as few as 1200 staff. Coming up | :10:20. | :10:24. | |
to 1600. Why not retain it if that is sufficient enough? | :10:25. | :10:32. | |
Thank you, Mr Speaker. I welcome the opportunity here and the | :10:33. | :10:39. | |
modernisation of HMRC. It is write a service like this is streamlined. We | :10:40. | :10:43. | |
have to make sure we have value for the taxpayer and customer service. | :10:44. | :10:46. | |
They must be at the heart of reforms. I believe it is possible to | :10:47. | :10:52. | |
save costs and improve customer service. At the end of the day, like | :10:53. | :10:58. | |
many things in business, it comes down to efficiency and productivity. | :10:59. | :11:04. | |
Two things increasingly difficult to achieve with the current system as | :11:05. | :11:05. | |
has been pointed out already. It is imperative to collect you | :11:06. | :11:18. | |
catch that are taxes and crackdown on tax avoidance. I know it's | :11:19. | :11:22. | |
something my honourable friends from all sides are concerned about and | :11:23. | :11:27. | |
that's why we need a system that will get to grips, especially with | :11:28. | :11:32. | |
the tax avoidance issue. Bringing together a highly skilled workforce | :11:33. | :11:35. | |
built -- based in specialist buildings will help to meet this | :11:36. | :11:40. | |
challenge and I have sympathy where offices will close, but really, our | :11:41. | :11:46. | |
system of offices is very old-fashioned. 1960s and 1970s | :11:47. | :11:51. | |
buildings. They are stuck in the dark ages. I'm going to plough on | :11:52. | :11:55. | |
because we've been told we can't speak a very long. Moving out of old | :11:56. | :12:00. | |
offices and many in London will help to make major savings for these | :12:01. | :12:05. | |
antiquated properties. It's the kind of common sense approach that all | :12:06. | :12:10. | |
businesses go through in order to undergo cost savings and to improve | :12:11. | :12:22. | |
efficiency. I'm pleased to be assured that it is anticipated that | :12:23. | :12:25. | |
many of the staff will move to these new regional centres and Bristol is | :12:26. | :12:27. | |
proposed as the centre for the south-west. But I would like to | :12:28. | :12:31. | |
suggest that the county town of Somerset, Taunton, in the heart of | :12:32. | :12:36. | |
my constituency of Taunton Deane, might be considered for this | :12:37. | :12:39. | |
regional centre and I would welcome a discussion on this. I have been | :12:40. | :12:44. | |
conducted by the powers that be in Taunton Deane and I do have the most | :12:45. | :12:49. | |
wonderful location for the new regional Centre, Minister, which is | :12:50. | :12:55. | |
on junction 25 of the M5 on our new strategic employment site. This | :12:56. | :12:58. | |
would be such easy access for everybody everywhere to get to. | :12:59. | :13:04. | |
Streamlining the office buildings is not the only component of the | :13:05. | :13:07. | |
modernisation programme, as we've heard today. It's a full programme | :13:08. | :13:12. | |
of other measures, including the investment in the online services, | :13:13. | :13:17. | |
new compliance techniques and other initiatives, making it easier for | :13:18. | :13:20. | |
taxpayers to access the system. And we are all keen to pay our taxes, | :13:21. | :13:26. | |
aren't we? The benefits of these... They are already coming into play. | :13:27. | :13:32. | |
80% of customers are filling in their self-assessment online. That | :13:33. | :13:38. | |
saves time and money. It moves us towards a 21st-century system. I | :13:39. | :13:51. | |
must add that I am actually constantly approached by many | :13:52. | :13:56. | |
people, many constituents, about the difficulties of accessing their tax | :13:57. | :14:00. | |
office and I have interviewed. We've had a very good service. I would say | :14:01. | :14:05. | |
in this respect I do welcome an upgrade. I fully anticipate that it | :14:06. | :14:10. | |
will make life easier. Those 3000 extra staff that came on board at | :14:11. | :14:13. | |
the weekend to handle phone calls have really helped and I do applaud | :14:14. | :14:19. | |
these opportunities for more personal contact where appropriate. | :14:20. | :14:25. | |
To sum up, with major investment in the new modern system, with a highly | :14:26. | :14:30. | |
skilled staff, many of whom we have already and many of whom we will | :14:31. | :14:34. | |
train up, and bringing in more revenue at less cost to the | :14:35. | :14:40. | |
taxpayer, this streamlining of HMRC, once it beds in, really has to be a | :14:41. | :14:51. | |
win-win win. Ian Lucas. Thank you. I say to the minister this was an | :14:52. | :14:55. | |
absolutely appalling announcement. It was appalling in the way it was | :14:56. | :15:02. | |
done. I was sitting in a conference at 2:14pm, thanks to my friend from | :15:03. | :15:05. | |
brutal for reminding me of the time, with two Tory ministers | :15:06. | :15:11. | |
talking to us in North Wales about rebalancing the economy. When I | :15:12. | :15:18. | |
received a missive not from a minister, not from the Government, | :15:19. | :15:24. | |
but from the civil servant, telling me 350 people in my constituency in | :15:25. | :15:28. | |
Wrexham were going to be either made redundant or be transferred out of | :15:29. | :15:32. | |
North Wales into Liverpool, where they will be in hot competition with | :15:33. | :15:37. | |
individuals from brutal in trying to find jobs. I was told by e-mail in | :15:38. | :15:48. | |
that way about what the Conservative Government actually think of North | :15:49. | :15:54. | |
Wales. Never has there been a sharper contrast between rhetoric | :15:55. | :15:59. | |
and reality. Because this Government, supposedly, talks about | :16:00. | :16:02. | |
rebalancing the economy. We've already had four point made by other | :16:03. | :16:09. | |
colleagues in the chamber that the sites identified and set out in the | :16:10. | :16:16. | |
letter that was sent to ask don't yet exist. This was an ideal | :16:17. | :16:22. | |
opportunity for the Government to take a sensible approach to | :16:23. | :16:28. | |
rebalancing the economy with taxpayers money. And to rebalance | :16:29. | :16:34. | |
the economy by shifting jobs out of areas that were very economically | :16:35. | :16:40. | |
successful and expensive, like London, or Nike Cardiff, to other | :16:41. | :16:46. | |
areas within our community, like North Wales, like Wrexham, where | :16:47. | :16:55. | |
there are places available to have high skilled workers providing | :16:56. | :16:58. | |
first-class service in a new online age. Don't take my word for that. We | :16:59. | :17:05. | |
have high quality service companies like Moneypenny, who provide virtual | :17:06. | :17:11. | |
office services, and like deep TCC, who provide company search facility, | :17:12. | :17:17. | |
not just within the UK, but right across the world. In Wrexham. They | :17:18. | :17:24. | |
are actually expanding. They are expanding at the moment and bringing | :17:25. | :17:31. | |
jobs to Wrexham, to be more competitive. This Government doesn't | :17:32. | :17:37. | |
know its backside from its elbow. It doesn't recognise that already we | :17:38. | :17:41. | |
have 350 high skilled people in Wrexham who are doing an excellent | :17:42. | :17:47. | |
job. In addition to that, we have people in the local economy who | :17:48. | :17:50. | |
you've been identified by the private sector as being particularly | :17:51. | :17:55. | |
skilled at providing exactly the sort of services this Government | :17:56. | :17:58. | |
needs, and any Government needs, to bring more money in to eliminate the | :17:59. | :18:03. | |
deficit that the honourable gentleman told us in 2010 would be | :18:04. | :18:10. | |
gone by today and is still there because of the economic incompetence | :18:11. | :18:13. | |
of the party opposite. I will give way. He made the point about the | :18:14. | :18:20. | |
site is not being known yet, as did the honourable member for brutal. In | :18:21. | :18:23. | |
West Yorkshire there is not being known yet, as did the honourable | :18:24. | :18:29. | |
member for brutal. In West Yorkshire there's identified site. It's very | :18:30. | :18:33. | |
bad negotiation to say that you will go to a particular place without a | :18:34. | :18:38. | |
site, because if you do identify a site, that landowners will have you | :18:39. | :18:41. | |
over a barrel when the negotiations take place. I'm grateful to him. Can | :18:42. | :18:47. | |
I commend him, and I think this is a first in 14 years, on his excellent | :18:48. | :18:51. | |
speech. The points he made mirrored many of the points I have been | :18:52. | :18:58. | |
making and intend to make. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever for | :18:59. | :19:02. | |
the Government to have approached this issue in the way it has. If I | :19:03. | :19:06. | |
can speak specifically about Wrexham because I'm here to represent my | :19:07. | :19:09. | |
constituents, it's incredible that the only service that there will be | :19:10. | :19:15. | |
from HMRC in Wales will be in Cardiff City centre. Cardiff City | :19:16. | :19:24. | |
centre. Firstly, it's boom town. The announcement from HMRC was followed | :19:25. | :19:29. | |
last week by the BBC announcing the creation of venue centre for Wales | :19:30. | :19:36. | |
in Cardiff City centre. HMRC will have to hurry up because there won't | :19:37. | :19:41. | |
be any room left in Cardiff. They had better hurry up and find a site. | :19:42. | :19:47. | |
The honourable gentleman I think is a reasonable man. I find it | :19:48. | :19:51. | |
incredible he's been in the Treasury since 2010 because he's a reasonable | :19:52. | :19:56. | |
man! Let me ask you, please, look at this announcement again. I mean it | :19:57. | :20:04. | |
seriously. I cannot understand the rationale economically, politically, | :20:05. | :20:10. | |
intellectually, in any sense, for this announcement. He should listen | :20:11. | :20:14. | |
to the sensible debate and I'm grateful to the SNP for bringing | :20:15. | :20:18. | |
this to the floor of the House and I will certainly support their motion | :20:19. | :20:24. | |
today. I think we desperately need a fundamental rethink on this. Because | :20:25. | :20:29. | |
this is our money that the Government is talking about. Our | :20:30. | :20:35. | |
money taking jobs out of a place like HMRC. -- temp two. The | :20:36. | :20:45. | |
Government should use public money to support economic developers in | :20:46. | :20:49. | |
those parts of our country that need it most. That is common sense. To | :20:50. | :20:54. | |
the honourable member the Taunton Deane, that's common sense. I run my | :20:55. | :21:00. | |
own business and if I run my own business pursuing policies like this | :21:01. | :21:03. | |
I would have been bankrupt before I started. In opposing this motion, I | :21:04. | :21:10. | |
wish to applaud the excellent work of HMRC over the recent years. | :21:11. | :21:15. | |
Thanks to their endeavour, there has been a reduction in the tax gap to | :21:16. | :21:21. | |
its lowest level of 6.4%. This reduction of the tax gap is a | :21:22. | :21:25. | |
long-term trend showing that the targeted approach for tackling | :21:26. | :21:30. | |
nonpayment is working. However, the issue today facing HMRC is that in | :21:31. | :21:35. | |
attempting to calculate and pay their taxes, our taxes, taxpayers | :21:36. | :21:40. | |
are spending 30 minutes or longer waiting to discuss their affairs. | :21:41. | :21:44. | |
50% of callers were not answered at all in the first half of 2015. It's | :21:45. | :21:51. | |
clear to me that the current tax Centre arrangements are not working | :21:52. | :21:56. | |
and need modernising. Replacing the numerous local offices, where some | :21:57. | :22:02. | |
staff levels and range from 6000 employees to those with just ten, | :22:03. | :22:06. | |
with regional centres which will give a more balanced and even | :22:07. | :22:11. | |
coverage makes huge sense. This follows the trend of other service | :22:12. | :22:14. | |
operators in moving to a regional model. Indeed, it is not just | :22:15. | :22:19. | |
service centres moving to regional or country models. I was struck last | :22:20. | :22:24. | |
Friday listening to the First Minister of Scotland in an excellent | :22:25. | :22:28. | |
Desert Island Discs describing the reasoning why she had moved | :22:29. | :22:32. | |
Scotland's policing towards one country force. The question I | :22:33. | :22:49. | |
therefore ask myself is why has it taken such a long period of time for | :22:50. | :22:52. | |
HMRC to move to this type of model? Banks were setting up current | :22:53. | :22:54. | |
account centres when I was a 16-year-old working as a Kasia in my | :22:55. | :22:57. | |
holidays for Abbey National. Many years back. In an increasingly | :22:58. | :22:59. | |
technological age, to continue to argue, as this motion tacitly does, | :23:00. | :23:01. | |
that the effectiveness of an operation is down to the number of | :23:02. | :23:05. | |
workers or their location rather than the completion of the work | :23:06. | :23:11. | |
itself is outmoded. In many public facing industries, technology means | :23:12. | :23:15. | |
human input is no longer required or is required less. In reducing and | :23:16. | :23:21. | |
streamlining staff numbers, I welcome HMRC's intention to invest | :23:22. | :23:25. | |
in technology to make itself more efficient. In an age where many of | :23:26. | :23:30. | |
my constituents are let to complete their work online, it makes more | :23:31. | :23:33. | |
sense to move funding to those areas where HMRC is able to target | :23:34. | :23:41. | |
avoidance. In my constituency, although we have two nearby offices | :23:42. | :23:44. | |
which will be replaced by regional centre in Croydon, it hasn't been | :23:45. | :23:48. | |
possible for the last year to go to the local tax office and discussed | :23:49. | :23:53. | |
tax arrangements. This walk in service has been unavailable for a | :23:54. | :23:57. | |
year. I therefore cannot see how my constituents will be inconvenienced | :23:58. | :24:00. | |
by the fact that the person they speak to on the phone is no longer | :24:01. | :24:06. | |
in Hastings, but is in Croydon. It is of course always regrettable when | :24:07. | :24:10. | |
new service models driven by new technologies and the preference of | :24:11. | :24:13. | |
the public to work online rather than deal face-to-face leads to the | :24:14. | :24:18. | |
potential of redundancies. As with any employee faced with the | :24:19. | :24:22. | |
uncertainty of redundancy, I have the greatest sympathy for those | :24:23. | :24:25. | |
impacted and I'm glad the economy is performing strongly enough to give | :24:26. | :24:30. | |
confidence and optimism to those who may be rejoining the jobs market. | :24:31. | :24:35. | |
But to hold back modernisation, to use resources which can be better | :24:36. | :24:40. | |
targeted in the sophisticated fight to win more tax receipts, and to | :24:41. | :24:44. | |
fail to address the shortcomings of customer service, would, I content, | :24:45. | :24:49. | |
be wrong. I therefore welcome these changes to HMRC and I will be voting | :24:50. | :25:00. | |
for them today in the lobby. The Government has been dismantling its | :25:01. | :25:05. | |
tax services in Wales for 15 years. The building our future locations | :25:06. | :25:08. | |
proposals are the final name of a Coffin of the tax service which used | :25:09. | :25:13. | |
to operate a very effective network for taxpayers across Wales. Not so | :25:14. | :25:17. | |
long ago, there were offices to be found in 22 towns and cities. Fast | :25:18. | :25:23. | |
forward five years from today and the Government proposes there will | :25:24. | :25:29. | |
only be one, and that in south-east Wales. HMRC was Mike Porthmadog | :25:30. | :25:35. | |
office in my constituency is earmarked once again for closure. | :25:36. | :25:41. | |
This is the home of the Welsh language unit. It is not just | :25:42. | :25:48. | |
offices, it is staff as well. There was no mention of the Welsh language | :25:49. | :25:52. | |
unit in the letter I received at recess. This office is well placed | :25:53. | :26:02. | |
to attract and retain fluid Welsh speaking staff and offers that rare | :26:03. | :26:07. | |
thing, a naturally Welsh speaking workplace, also serving the region | :26:08. | :26:11. | |
of Wales and this is important, where demand for Welsh language | :26:12. | :26:16. | |
services is highest. As one of their users, I would urge everyone to | :26:17. | :26:19. | |
speak to take advantage of this office, even people lacking | :26:20. | :26:22. | |
confidence to discuss financial matters in Welsh, not for the | :26:23. | :26:26. | |
language but because the staff are good at their job. Beyond the | :26:27. | :26:33. | |
language remit, HMRC's commitment falls a long way short of the | :26:34. | :26:37. | |
statutory required to treat the Welsh and English-language magazines | :26:38. | :26:39. | |
as equal when providing public service in Wales according to the | :26:40. | :26:45. | |
act of 1993. I am presently working on behalf of a constituent told he | :26:46. | :26:48. | |
cannot use Welsh to resolve a tax affair. Business customers tell me | :26:49. | :26:54. | |
the same thing. Others complain of waiting 40 minutes and more before | :26:55. | :26:55. | |
the telephone system allows them the telephone system allows them | :26:56. | :27:01. | |
access the service in Welsh. The proposal is this service can be kept | :27:02. | :27:07. | |
as effectively in Cardiff. The county of Gwyneth is home to 77,000 | :27:08. | :27:12. | |
Welsh speakers. Sexy 5.4% of the county population. Cardiff has less | :27:13. | :27:20. | |
than half that number. -- 65.4%. They want to move from payroll | :27:21. | :27:23. | |
region where Welsh is the language of everyday life and civic | :27:24. | :27:27. | |
administration to an urban centre 150 miles and four hours drive away. | :27:28. | :27:33. | |
About as far from likely users as is possible to go and still be in | :27:34. | :27:37. | |
Wales. The tax office is honest enough to admit it is not realistic | :27:38. | :27:41. | |
to expect workers to travel to South East Wales. Workers at Wrexham and | :27:42. | :27:47. | |
Swansea are being offered the option to transfer to Liverpool, or | :27:48. | :27:51. | |
Cardiff. It sounds fair until you recall former organisations offered | :27:52. | :27:54. | |
workers the option of moving to workplaces, which are now in turn | :27:55. | :28:00. | |
threatened. In this month it was announced and implement in Wales | :28:01. | :28:05. | |
rose by 3000. News described by the Secretary of State for Wales as a | :28:06. | :28:10. | |
disappointing set of figures. The closure of these offices is a blow | :28:11. | :28:13. | |
to plans to devolve tax powers for Wales. On the one hand the Tories | :28:14. | :28:18. | |
extol the virtues of Wales taking more control over taxes, something | :28:19. | :28:21. | |
we have proposed for years, but on the other hand, the means of them | :28:22. | :28:24. | |
ministration of powers is shuffled across the border to England. -- the | :28:25. | :28:29. | |
administration of powers. It should be subject to proper public and | :28:30. | :28:35. | |
parliamentary scrutiny at UK level and also with the PCS union. There | :28:36. | :28:39. | |
are issues unique to Wales which must be addressed. First, changes as | :28:40. | :28:46. | |
to how the Welsh language service is provided should be the subject of | :28:47. | :28:50. | |
ailing which impact review as is required for public sector Welsh | :28:51. | :28:54. | |
language schemes. Second, the administrative requirement of | :28:55. | :28:57. | |
increased tax devolution should be identified with the views of the | :28:58. | :29:01. | |
National Assembly of Wales. I would urge this government to reconsider | :29:02. | :29:05. | |
the proposals. The proposals on services in Wales, Welsh speakers, | :29:06. | :29:10. | |
services to the nation has a hole in the light of the devolution agenda | :29:11. | :29:15. | |
and in particular, the significance of well-paid public sector jobs to a | :29:16. | :29:23. | |
low-wage economy. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Moving more of | :29:24. | :29:29. | |
HMRC's work out of central London, which has some of the mystics | :29:30. | :29:32. | |
pensive office space in the world, will enable HMRC to make substantial | :29:33. | :29:39. | |
savings. -- most expensive. It is right it makes what savings it can | :29:40. | :29:44. | |
on property costs so the money it has can be used to improve customer | :29:45. | :29:48. | |
service and maximise tax revenue. It cannot be sustainable for HMRC's | :29:49. | :29:56. | |
58,000 full-time employees to be spread across 170 officers around | :29:57. | :30:01. | |
the country. Many of them are little more than a legacy from the 1960s | :30:02. | :30:08. | |
and 70s. It is highly inefficient. While recognising the need to | :30:09. | :30:13. | |
modernise and reform, we do have a responsibility to make sure the HMRC | :30:14. | :30:19. | |
staff are treated fairly. That is why I hope everything possible will | :30:20. | :30:22. | |
be done to retain the skills and expertise we have in the HMRC by | :30:23. | :30:27. | |
making sure that as many of the workforce as possible are | :30:28. | :30:32. | |
redeployed. In particular, I would like to emphasise the need for | :30:33. | :30:37. | |
support for local workers in my constituency, who choose to transfer | :30:38. | :30:40. | |
to the Birmingham regional centre and support retraining for those who | :30:41. | :30:48. | |
do not transfer to the new centre. I hope in undergoing these changes, | :30:49. | :30:50. | |
the management will work closer with colleagues and see how many staff | :30:51. | :30:57. | |
might be taken on by the Department for work and pen and is when the | :30:58. | :31:00. | |
Merry Hill office is transferred to the DWP. My constituents in Dudley | :31:01. | :31:08. | |
South expect the same high standards from HMRC has a do from banks and | :31:09. | :31:16. | |
retailers. This programme will help meet these expectations. People in | :31:17. | :31:21. | |
my constituency will also welcome the creation of a regional centre in | :31:22. | :31:26. | |
the West Midlands, with high-quality jobs and skills that such a centre | :31:27. | :31:32. | |
brings. I am pleased as part of a modernisation programme, HMRC plans | :31:33. | :31:36. | |
to work with universities and local colleges, attracting the best and | :31:37. | :31:42. | |
brightest talent. While recognising the importance of Birmingham has the | :31:43. | :31:47. | |
second British city, I urge HMRC not to rule out the possibility of the | :31:48. | :31:52. | |
Black Country has a suitable location for West Midlands regional | :31:53. | :31:57. | |
centre. Quite rightly, members and residents expect HMRC to increase | :31:58. | :32:03. | |
the amount of tax revenues collected while cutting running costs, as they | :32:04. | :32:11. | |
have done in the last five years. An additional 11.9 billion collected | :32:12. | :32:14. | |
last year. 87 billion in the last decade. Total tax revenue has | :32:15. | :32:21. | |
increased in each of the past five years in which HMRC has reduced its | :32:22. | :32:25. | |
running costs from 3.4 billion, down to 3.1 billion, including 210 | :32:26. | :32:32. | |
million of servings in sustainable costs last year alone. -- savings. | :32:33. | :32:37. | |
But we cannot rest on our laurels. We must build on these significant | :32:38. | :32:42. | |
achievements. We expect a lot from HMRC. Changing demand in the | :32:43. | :32:47. | |
organisation means ways of operating which might have been appropriate in | :32:48. | :32:51. | |
the past might not be appropriate for the future. Like all | :32:52. | :32:57. | |
organisations, HMRC must continue to adapt it it is to be effective and | :32:58. | :33:03. | |
responses as we would all want, while operating as efficiently as we | :33:04. | :33:09. | |
must all surely demand. And we owe it to the HMRC leadership to allow | :33:10. | :33:12. | |
them the independence they need to make the changes they judge are | :33:13. | :33:18. | |
appropriate and that they have decided are necessary to meet these | :33:19. | :33:27. | |
challenges and that is why I will be supporting the Government in | :33:28. | :33:32. | |
opposing this motion this evening. Many thanks, Madam Liberty Speaker, | :33:33. | :33:37. | |
for allowing me to speak in this very important date. -- Madam Deputy | :33:38. | :33:42. | |
Speaker. It has been announced that the Plaza is to be closed in 2021. | :33:43. | :33:49. | |
The Queensway house site will close in 2026. This is tenuous and subject | :33:50. | :33:55. | |
to better terms with the lease at the site. The restructuring of HMRC | :33:56. | :34:01. | |
comes as a result of the demand of the Treasury for a 30% cut to their | :34:02. | :34:07. | |
budget to satisfy the Chancellor's austerity agenda which the majority | :34:08. | :34:10. | |
of people in Scotland did not vote for. The result of this is many | :34:11. | :34:16. | |
people in my constituency are facing real uncertainty and anxiety for the | :34:17. | :34:21. | |
future because of an ideological drive to cut public services by this | :34:22. | :34:27. | |
Westminster government. The tax office and their workforce are a | :34:28. | :34:30. | |
significant and long-standing institution in the local community | :34:31. | :34:36. | |
and the economy in my constituency. All of us are related to, or know | :34:37. | :34:41. | |
somebody that works there or has done, and in fact I must declare my | :34:42. | :34:44. | |
own grandmother worked as a tax office clerk in East Kilbride some | :34:45. | :34:51. | |
30 years ago. Some workers might have the opportunity to be relocated | :34:52. | :34:56. | |
to proposed regional offices. This will be of no consolation to people | :34:57. | :34:59. | |
who will lose their jobs and will not negate the anxiety has people | :35:00. | :35:04. | |
wait to find out that you chip. I argue that -- their future. As | :35:05. | :35:11. | |
billions are lost to tax evasion, this makes no sense and these cuts | :35:12. | :35:14. | |
are likely to have a detrimental impact on society, on the economy, | :35:15. | :35:20. | |
on local and national level. Removing these jobs from the local | :35:21. | :35:25. | |
area does not just affect employees and employees involved, but has a | :35:26. | :35:30. | |
wider impact on the whole community. It is likely to have a significant | :35:31. | :35:33. | |
adverse impact on local businesses, other jobs, and cause great | :35:34. | :35:38. | |
difficulty in promoting economic growth. We want to support companies | :35:39. | :35:44. | |
and services to locate to our constituency and not. For the | :35:45. | :35:49. | |
workers moving to regional offices, the additional commute is also | :35:50. | :35:53. | |
likely to impact upon their personal lives by reducing time they can | :35:54. | :35:57. | |
spend with their families at it is likely it will have additional | :35:58. | :36:01. | |
financial implications because of extra travel and the bearing upon | :36:02. | :36:05. | |
childcare. These closures are counter-productive. They sent a | :36:06. | :36:09. | |
clear message this government is going soft on tax collection and | :36:10. | :36:15. | |
evasion. It is appalling and Draconian that three offices are | :36:16. | :36:20. | |
proposed the close in my constituency. If I can use the | :36:21. | :36:25. | |
analogy of Oscar Wilde, who famously wrote, to lose one parent may be | :36:26. | :36:30. | |
regarded as a misfortune, but Toulouse two is carelessness. I | :36:31. | :36:35. | |
would suggest losing three tax offices is unforgivable. -- but | :36:36. | :36:40. | |
losing two looks like carelessness. It would be forever ingrained the | :36:41. | :36:43. | |
Conservatives are not a friend of the people of East Kilbride, | :36:44. | :36:49. | |
Strathnaver and hand less behaviour. I would urge them to go back to the | :36:50. | :36:54. | |
drawing board. He has been described by some as reasonable. Review, | :36:55. | :36:58. | |
conducted impact assessments, urgently meet with myself, local | :36:59. | :37:04. | |
staff, my colleagues, devolved government and the Honourable | :37:05. | :37:10. | |
friends that have spoken today. I am sorry, I am going to drop this | :37:11. | :37:14. | |
speech to four minutes to accommodate everybody. The | :37:15. | :37:19. | |
Honourable member for Wrexham mentioned earlier the surprise of | :37:20. | :37:25. | |
this announcement. The skilled staff of the HMRC office in Inverness | :37:26. | :37:30. | |
anticipated some change coming forward but what they got was a | :37:31. | :37:37. | |
hammer blow. The plan to close 137 local offices and replace them with | :37:38. | :37:42. | |
13 regional centres by 2027 hit the news that in fact it would happen in | :37:43. | :37:48. | |
Inverness in 2017-18. Hardly any time at all to draw breath on this | :37:49. | :37:54. | |
decision. The HMRC employs 8330 people in Scotland, with 13% of all | :37:55. | :38:01. | |
UK HMRC staff in Scotland. Hardly a dividend worth retaining if that is | :38:02. | :38:07. | |
the way we are being treated. The PCS union have said 11,000, | :38:08. | :38:14. | |
full-time equivalent staff, had been cut from the HMRC since 2010 and any | :38:15. | :38:19. | |
further cuts would be devastating and in fact, the PCS general | :38:20. | :38:25. | |
secretary said that closing this many offices would pose a | :38:26. | :38:28. | |
significant threat to the operation of HMRC, the service to the public, | :38:29. | :38:35. | |
and the working lives of members of staff and there was great need for | :38:36. | :38:39. | |
Parliamentary scrutiny of these plans. That was undeniable and | :38:40. | :38:44. | |
urgent. I am delighted my group, the SNP, have brought this debate to | :38:45. | :38:49. | |
this House today to do just that. In my constituency, there are more than | :38:50. | :38:55. | |
50 staff facing losing their jobs. Many are women, many are over 50 | :38:56. | :39:00. | |
years old. Most important, all our skills, dealing with, the gated tax | :39:01. | :39:05. | |
problems for people across the UK, not only saving the HMRC money have | :39:06. | :39:10. | |
the taxpayer, but saving businesses from going into administration and | :39:11. | :39:14. | |
giving advice vital for helping people. -- dealing with difficult | :39:15. | :39:23. | |
tax problems. I have heard how they can operate with a virtual team and | :39:24. | :39:26. | |
they have been retained many times in the past. The government talks | :39:27. | :39:32. | |
about a more modern HMRC. Why have they not taken the time to look at | :39:33. | :39:34. | |
Inverness, the fastest rowing city in Scotland? The member from Dudley | :39:35. | :39:41. | |
talks about the expense of London. There is nothing expensive about | :39:42. | :39:45. | |
Inverness. It has great people had a great facility and you are taking it | :39:46. | :39:49. | |
away. That is not the best way to deal with something. There was no | :39:50. | :39:53. | |
evidence of any assessment of the impact on staff with disability, or | :39:54. | :40:01. | |
caring responsibilities, or the social and economic and | :40:02. | :40:05. | |
environmental effects and yes, I'm happy to give way. Does his point | :40:06. | :40:10. | |
and the points made by members on both sides of this House so part | :40:11. | :40:15. | |
show that with the lack of an impact assessment, these proposals should | :40:16. | :40:18. | |
be ripped up and we should start again? I completely agree with my | :40:19. | :40:24. | |
honourable friend, the member for Glasgow South West, also vice chair | :40:25. | :40:30. | |
of the Parliamentary group for the PBS. He knows what he's talking | :40:31. | :40:36. | |
about. There has been no assessment. The people in my constituency, the | :40:37. | :40:39. | |
skilled workers and people that dedicated their lives and careers to | :40:40. | :40:44. | |
working for the HMRC have been left cold with this announcement. They | :40:45. | :40:48. | |
have been hung out to dry. It is absolutely vital that there is a | :40:49. | :40:53. | |
review to look at the people that have spent many years training to do | :40:54. | :40:58. | |
a job which is very hard to do from a call centre rows were and exploit | :40:59. | :41:03. | |
these skills, to think that would be the right thing to do, to dismiss | :41:04. | :41:07. | |
these skills, these people, throw them on the scrapheap, that is the | :41:08. | :41:09. | |
wrong thing to do. It is ludicrous that such a massive | :41:10. | :41:21. | |
change would be made without any public or parliamentary | :41:22. | :41:23. | |
consultation. There is an opportunity for you to look again at | :41:24. | :41:27. | |
this measure. You've heard from the chamber today and you will continue | :41:28. | :41:32. | |
to hear about the stories of people who have devoted themselves to | :41:33. | :41:36. | |
making HMRC work and there are still huge challenges are haired for the | :41:37. | :41:41. | |
HMRC. It's time to halt these plans and do something different that | :41:42. | :41:44. | |
values the people working in this service, that values the collection | :41:45. | :41:53. | |
of revenue and makes sure it is a sensible decision for the people of | :41:54. | :41:56. | |
Scotland and the nations of the UK. Can I say it's nice to see the | :41:57. | :41:59. | |
Treasury minister on the bench today, but it's a shame he didn't | :42:00. | :42:03. | |
feel it necessary to come to the House of his own accord to account | :42:04. | :42:08. | |
for his unprecedented or reorganisation of HMRC. I'd like to | :42:09. | :42:12. | |
congratulate the SNP for securing this debate. One issue not covered | :42:13. | :42:17. | |
so far is that of those staff on lower bands in HMRC that currently | :42:18. | :42:21. | |
rely on tax credits to supplement their income. In order to travel | :42:22. | :42:26. | |
from Sheffield to Leeds, some of these employees will receive access | :42:27. | :42:57. | |
travel allowance, but because this is tax deductible, it could take | :42:58. | :42:59. | |
them over the threshold for tax credits meaning they lose their | :43:00. | :43:01. | |
entitlement. Is the Minister aware of this issue and will he look into | :43:02. | :43:04. | |
the cases of those on tax credit employed by HMRC who may lose out as | :43:05. | :43:07. | |
a result of this decision? In a county like Yorkshire, the largest | :43:08. | :43:10. | |
in England, which can be 100 miles from Leeds, it's hard to imagine | :43:11. | :43:12. | |
there would be significant disruption for the staff and | :43:13. | :43:14. | |
taxpayers. What are the arrangements to deal with a county of our size | :43:15. | :43:16. | |
being rationalised? What steps has the Minister put in place for the | :43:17. | :43:19. | |
people in my constituency who will have 80 mile commute and also for | :43:20. | :43:22. | |
the small business owner who lives in Grimsby who wants face-to-face | :43:23. | :43:24. | |
advice but would now face a 150 mile round trip? The Minister and I both | :43:25. | :43:27. | |
know it's unlikely the person would make that trip and as a result | :43:28. | :43:29. | |
individuals will continue to be overpaid or underpaid. We know that | :43:30. | :43:35. | |
in the last year 's mistakes in the calculation of PAYE led to almost 5 | :43:36. | :43:39. | |
million people being mistakenly overpaid or underpaid. We also know | :43:40. | :43:43. | |
that almost a quarter of all tax investigations remain open more than | :43:44. | :43:59. | |
12 months later and 3800 are open over three years after being opened. | :44:00. | :44:01. | |
These issues are not new to the Government. In 2011 the Treasury | :44:02. | :44:03. | |
Select Committee found there were unacceptable difficulties contacting | :44:04. | :44:05. | |
HMRC and recommended that HMRC improve the service at contact | :44:06. | :44:11. | |
service is -- centres. This recommendation is particularly | :44:12. | :44:15. | |
relevant as many of us in this House will have had constituents contacted | :44:16. | :44:18. | |
recently by the US multinational concentric, a company contracted by | :44:19. | :44:23. | |
HMRC to handle some of their functions. Their performance has | :44:24. | :44:28. | |
been little short of abysmal. A report by the NA oh in July revealed | :44:29. | :44:34. | |
a ?75 million contract has resulted in savings of just ?500,000, | :44:35. | :44:41. | |
somewhat short of the ?285 million projected. For the tax credit | :44:42. | :44:45. | |
recipients bearing the brunt of this failing contract, their tax credits | :44:46. | :44:48. | |
have been wrongly stopped and they have been unable to get in touch | :44:49. | :44:53. | |
with them, leading to serious financial hardship. In response to | :44:54. | :44:57. | |
the same select committee report, the Government said H R C conduct, | :44:58. | :45:01. | |
full reviews before any changes are made to the opening hours of its | :45:02. | :45:20. | |
face-to-face wiry centres. The recently introduced changes in 2011 | :45:21. | :45:22. | |
were made only after extensive public consultation, including a | :45:23. | :45:24. | |
full equality impact review. It also said the physical presence of HMRC | :45:25. | :45:27. | |
is based on a geographical picture on the areas of higher tax risk. Yet | :45:28. | :45:29. | |
in this reorganisation there's been neither public consultation nor have | :45:30. | :45:31. | |
the new offices locations being based on a picture of tax risk, but | :45:32. | :45:34. | |
instead on where ever is most convenient to the Government in each | :45:35. | :45:36. | |
region. I hope the Minister will correct me on this assumption and | :45:37. | :45:41. | |
provide answers to the questions I've raised. We on this side of the | :45:42. | :45:46. | |
House hope the Government recognise these closures are the falls list of | :45:47. | :45:48. | |
all is economy is. I would like to congratulate the SNP | :45:49. | :46:01. | |
on securing this debate. Attempts were made to get it onto the | :46:02. | :46:06. | |
programme earlier, but the important worldwide events squeezed it out. | :46:07. | :46:12. | |
I'd also like to congratulate the Government because they have | :46:13. | :46:16. | |
successfully cheesed off every region and every nation in the | :46:17. | :46:19. | |
United Kingdom in one fell swoop. They're half 300 workers in | :46:20. | :46:24. | |
Middlesbrough and 400 in the Stockton South constituency who are | :46:25. | :46:31. | |
affected by these closures and those officers will close in 2018 and | :46:32. | :46:38. | |
2019. That follows the loss of 2200 jobs at SSI, 1000 contract is, more | :46:39. | :46:43. | |
than 6000 in the supply chain, 800 workers sent home and on the same | :46:44. | :46:51. | |
day of this announcement, 700 redundancies. I've never known such | :46:52. | :46:56. | |
a tidal wave of job losses. For the Government to rub salt into the | :46:57. | :47:00. | |
wound of Deeside at such a time is totally callous and a disregard for | :47:01. | :47:07. | |
the fortunes of Teessiders. I thank the honourable member for giving | :47:08. | :47:11. | |
way. I would like to extend the solidarity of my constituents to | :47:12. | :47:16. | |
his. It's an insult to his constituency. Is it not | :47:17. | :47:19. | |
extraordinary that we've heard from some members on the other side that | :47:20. | :47:24. | |
this is all to do with modernisation and people filling out online tax | :47:25. | :47:27. | |
returns when only a fortnight ago we were told that a trade you member | :47:28. | :47:33. | |
can't use online balloting? My honourable friend makes a very good | :47:34. | :47:40. | |
point. It's interesting how that rationale is so exclusively adopted | :47:41. | :47:44. | |
for certain points, but it isn't universally spread. It's a very, | :47:45. | :47:48. | |
very good point. The way in which this announcement was made should be | :47:49. | :47:52. | |
for the record, it was a disgraceful stop to sneak this out in this way | :47:53. | :47:59. | |
during a mini racers, it's not coming from a minister coming to the | :48:00. | :48:03. | |
dispatch box, he sneaks it out on the Internet during a recess. It's a | :48:04. | :48:08. | |
disgrace, disrespectful to the people losing jobs and disrespectful | :48:09. | :48:11. | |
to this House and its members. They should be ashamed of themselves. I | :48:12. | :48:17. | |
rang the Chief Executive and said what on earth are you playing at? I | :48:18. | :48:22. | |
asked whether a socioeconomic assessment had been carried out. The | :48:23. | :48:26. | |
minister isn't interested. People on this side. I'm sick to death of | :48:27. | :48:34. | |
hearing from that side about I feel your pain. We are doing everything | :48:35. | :48:40. | |
to try and help. That was what I was told about doing everything they | :48:41. | :48:43. | |
could to look after the Deeside staff. It's a funny way of going | :48:44. | :48:48. | |
about it to say by the way your job is going. It's ridiculous. And then | :48:49. | :48:53. | |
they say there's over half of them who will retire in situ. That's OK | :48:54. | :48:56. | |
because they won't suffer because they will be to stay until they are | :48:57. | :49:03. | |
retired. Those jobs will go! They will disappear. There is no | :49:04. | :49:06. | |
continuation, nothing for future generations coming along. Every time | :49:07. | :49:11. | |
we have this consolidation in the north-east of England, it's always | :49:12. | :49:15. | |
Deeside that loses out and the jobs go north. On this occasion we are | :49:16. | :49:20. | |
talking about consolidation at Waterview Park in Sunderland. It's | :49:21. | :49:26. | |
only 30 miles. Two hours and 25 minutes by bus. You're talking about | :49:27. | :49:30. | |
people adding five hours to their working day. How will people go to | :49:31. | :49:36. | |
their school open evenings, attend to their third league parents, run | :49:37. | :49:40. | |
the girl guides or whatever it may be. What quality of life is that? | :49:41. | :49:45. | |
There's never any regard for these things. These jobs aren't going to | :49:46. | :49:50. | |
come back. And of course, there's no way people can maintain a decent | :49:51. | :49:59. | |
pattern of life on this basis. There is simply more painful she sighed | :50:00. | :50:03. | |
and the Government needs to stop these closures. There's been no | :50:04. | :50:06. | |
proper consultation whatsoever and they should take the opportunity for | :50:07. | :50:14. | |
targeted assistance to help Teesside attract high-quality, well-paid work | :50:15. | :50:19. | |
that so urgently needed. What is clear today is that the Government | :50:20. | :50:26. | |
have simply failed to make the case for these changes. They've failed to | :50:27. | :50:29. | |
make the case in Scotland, in Northern Ireland, in Wales and in | :50:30. | :50:38. | |
England. Not only here, with just a few loyal new MPs keen to curry | :50:39. | :50:43. | |
favour by saying what a wonderful thing this is, alongside some | :50:44. | :50:49. | |
hard-working constituency MPs who have said the damage this will do to | :50:50. | :50:52. | |
their own constituency and every credit to them for doing so. More | :50:53. | :50:57. | |
importantly, they have not made the case for these changes not only with | :50:58. | :51:02. | |
the 8000 staff who will lose their jobs and their livelihoods, but with | :51:03. | :51:08. | |
many businesses who are deeply concerned about these changes. Small | :51:09. | :51:13. | |
and medium enterprises, the so-called lifeblood of our economy. | :51:14. | :51:17. | |
They haven't made the case with chartered accountants who deal with | :51:18. | :51:21. | |
the tax offices and do such a good job to ensure tax affairs are in | :51:22. | :51:27. | |
order. We already know the HMRC already failed to unacceptable | :51:28. | :51:31. | |
service level to customers. We know that from the Public Accounts | :51:32. | :51:39. | |
report. The times of being answered going to 14 minutes 22 seconds for | :51:40. | :51:46. | |
the average time, the average time for answering a call. Think what | :51:47. | :51:51. | |
that means store hard-working chartered accountant, a small | :51:52. | :51:55. | |
business in themselves. All those small businesses relying on those | :51:56. | :51:58. | |
advice, sometimes with the need for real advice that could affect the | :51:59. | :52:02. | |
future of their business. How can the Government possibly argue that | :52:03. | :52:07. | |
cutting 8000 jobs will make this poor performance that isn't good | :52:08. | :52:11. | |
enough any better? One of the members opposite said there are many | :52:12. | :52:15. | |
things that humans can't do, but if you speak to these small businesses, | :52:16. | :52:18. | |
these chartered accountants, the thing they say is lacking is being | :52:19. | :52:23. | |
able to talk to people when you need advice when you're not sure. That is | :52:24. | :52:27. | |
already not good enough, it's already more difficult to get rid of | :52:28. | :52:31. | |
more people with local knowledge you are able to assist and advise is | :52:32. | :52:37. | |
simply madness. In that case humans are absolutely essential that is | :52:38. | :52:44. | |
very short-sighted thinking. My own constituent chartered accountant | :52:45. | :52:46. | |
Stephen Oliver has been advising people in my constituency and he's | :52:47. | :52:50. | |
been telling me for years with the inadequacies of dealing with the tax | :52:51. | :52:55. | |
office on many many occasions. He is one of the many people who is deeply | :52:56. | :52:59. | |
concerned that these changes will make it worse, which is why there is | :53:00. | :53:03. | |
widespread opposition to this from the accountancy sector, which surely | :53:04. | :53:06. | |
is widespread opposition to this from the accountancy sector, which | :53:07. | :53:12. | |
surely something terms of those entrepreneurs, those small and | :53:13. | :53:15. | |
medium-sized businesses, these are people not only contributing to the | :53:16. | :53:19. | |
economy, but also who want to stay on the right side of the law, who | :53:20. | :53:24. | |
want to fulfil their tax obligations, who want to contribute | :53:25. | :53:29. | |
to society. Can ministers confirmed they've done an analysis to the cost | :53:30. | :53:33. | |
of the economy? There will be a cost of the economy in lost productivity | :53:34. | :53:39. | |
as a result of the increases in times of answering the phone. | :53:40. | :53:46. | |
Finally, in response to my own written questions, ministers have | :53:47. | :53:49. | |
confirmed that it's not yet finalised how many staff are being | :53:50. | :53:52. | |
reassigned from individual offices to regional centres. Peter Bennet | :53:53. | :53:59. | |
House in West Park is being closed, which is regrettable. Can ministers | :54:00. | :54:04. | |
confirmed this move will be planned in a way that will have the least | :54:05. | :54:08. | |
impact on staff and their families, something they haven't done? The | :54:09. | :54:14. | |
Government have not made the case in any of the four Nations and they | :54:15. | :54:17. | |
really should think again and properly consult with all those | :54:18. | :54:25. | |
affected. Can I align myself with the comments made from members from | :54:26. | :54:31. | |
across the House and in particulars from my region, my honourable friend | :54:32. | :54:38. | |
from Sheffield, the honourable member from Leeds North West and in | :54:39. | :54:41. | |
particular my new neighbour the honourable member for Shipley, who | :54:42. | :54:46. | |
makes a very persuasive and common sense argument and I want to align | :54:47. | :54:54. | |
and build on that. The Prime Minister, in response to my question | :54:55. | :54:59. | |
last week in relation to HMRC meeting with Bradford MPs, his | :55:00. | :55:05. | |
response was welcome and I appreciate the opportunity to meet | :55:06. | :55:08. | |
with the minister to discuss my concerns. However, the second part | :55:09. | :55:13. | |
of the Prime Minister's response was quite frankly unacceptable. A reply | :55:14. | :55:19. | |
with statistics about the failing claimant count in Bradford is to | :55:20. | :55:22. | |
completely miss the point. In any case, the reason the count is | :55:23. | :55:26. | |
falling in Bradford is not because we suddenly have lots of good new | :55:27. | :55:33. | |
jobs, it's because of sanctions, dubious self-employment and | :55:34. | :55:37. | |
low-wage, zero our contracts. We therefore need a proper industrial | :55:38. | :55:42. | |
strategy that addresses this short falling and helps to bring high | :55:43. | :55:43. | |
quality, well-paid jobs to the city. The decision to close HMRC offices | :55:44. | :55:54. | |
in Bradford would mean the loss of more than 2000 jobs from the city. | :55:55. | :55:59. | |
These are precisely the type of jobs that we need. Regardless of how many | :56:00. | :56:04. | |
jobs are transferred, it will have a devastating effect on the local | :56:05. | :56:09. | |
economy. I will give way to the honourable member. Darcy echo the | :56:10. | :56:15. | |
comments of his near neighbour from Shipley in regard to the cost which | :56:16. | :56:21. | |
will being curbed by transferring the service to Leeds, which is an | :56:22. | :56:27. | |
area of significantly higher rental value to a property which does not | :56:28. | :56:32. | |
exist? How will that save money? Is that not just a false argument? I | :56:33. | :56:39. | |
agree with my honourable friend. There is no economic case. As I said | :56:40. | :56:45. | |
earlier, this has been ill thought out and the economic and social case | :56:46. | :56:51. | |
in Bradford and this region as frankly not been made. The decision | :56:52. | :56:57. | |
has come as something of a hammer blow to Bradford as there is a clear | :56:58. | :57:02. | |
case why the officer should be situated in Bradford. It marks out | :57:03. | :57:09. | |
the positive reason and the economic impact warning of the danger of | :57:10. | :57:14. | |
pulling this work out of the city. We have a young and talented | :57:15. | :57:17. | |
workforce crying out for these opportunities. Like my honourable | :57:18. | :57:23. | |
friend stated, we have an identified site next door to the transport | :57:24. | :57:29. | |
interchange and as well as close proximity to four popular | :57:30. | :57:33. | |
universities, we have the internationally renowned Bradford | :57:34. | :57:36. | |
University School of management. I also cannot find good reason why it | :57:37. | :57:45. | |
should not all be moved to Leeds. People have complained about the | :57:46. | :57:48. | |
lack of consultation and the fact nobody has had a chance to see, let | :57:49. | :57:53. | |
alone scrutinise the figures they have used to come up with this plan. | :57:54. | :58:00. | |
Would he also accept all the indications are that Leeds do not | :58:01. | :58:05. | |
want this particular hub based here because they could have ravaged | :58:06. | :58:08. | |
sector investment and in effect the Government have crowded out private | :58:09. | :58:13. | |
sector investment into Leeds unnecessarily? The Honourable member | :58:14. | :58:24. | |
makes an absolutely essential point. It could have a detrimental effect | :58:25. | :58:29. | |
on Leeds and the private sector. As I stand here, representing Bradford, | :58:30. | :58:34. | |
let me make clear my demand to see these figures and the argument for | :58:35. | :58:39. | |
the move to Leeds. A decision this important must be made openly and in | :58:40. | :58:44. | |
the full glare of public scrutiny if we are to be persuaded that this is | :58:45. | :58:48. | |
not for the convenience of London-based civil servants. | :58:49. | :58:53. | |
Bradford has struggled for years to overcome the effect of | :58:54. | :58:58. | |
deindustrialisation and has had many problems to tackle. Relocating to | :58:59. | :59:04. | |
Bradford would be a great help on the road to Radford's way forward. | :59:05. | :59:10. | |
The city is starting to show signs of recovery and a returning of | :59:11. | :59:16. | |
confidence. But removing these jobs from the city will be a bitter blow. | :59:17. | :59:23. | |
I urge the Government to ask HMRC to rethink this decision and look | :59:24. | :59:27. | |
seriously at the compelling case for Bradford and be bold enough to | :59:28. | :59:36. | |
change their minds. Madam Deputy Speaker, it has been a very | :59:37. | :59:39. | |
enlightening debate this afternoon. I would like to thank every single | :59:40. | :59:45. | |
person that has participated. I was going to start by saying that | :59:46. | :59:48. | |
clearly be house is divided in this matter. I will have to change that | :59:49. | :59:55. | |
to clearly not. Given the many fine conurbations from the benches | :59:56. | :00:00. | |
opposite. Many years ago there was a sociologist who said the most | :00:01. | :00:05. | |
worrying thing is not when people debate and argue, at least they are | :00:06. | :00:10. | |
motivated to address the issue. The biggest problem is when there is | :00:11. | :00:15. | |
apathy and people do not take part. This afternoon I think we have had | :00:16. | :00:20. | |
some tremendous conurbations and engagement and there is certainly no | :00:21. | :00:23. | |
apathy in this House about this important issue. I remain the UK | :00:24. | :00:28. | |
government has has made a serious error in closure plans. I think the | :00:29. | :00:33. | |
majority of those that have contributed this afternoon would | :00:34. | :00:37. | |
agree with that. My honourable friend from Livingston pointed out | :00:38. | :00:47. | |
some ?34 billion is being lost by inefficient tax collection at the | :00:48. | :00:52. | |
moment. At the same time, the great idea of the Government is to close | :00:53. | :00:57. | |
offices and make redundant the very staff we need to collect these | :00:58. | :01:04. | |
taxes. The Honourable number four Livingston in a range of | :01:05. | :01:08. | |
shortcomings in the Government plan in concluding office and personnel | :01:09. | :01:15. | |
cuts... I would like to refer to every single person that has made a | :01:16. | :01:20. | |
contribution since I think all the conurbations have been important. I | :01:21. | :01:27. | |
start with the Minister, who with his usual calm and attempted | :01:28. | :01:39. | |
reason... With his usual very fine toured a force, I would like to pick | :01:40. | :01:45. | |
him up on one or two points, I was aggrieved when he raised a point | :01:46. | :01:49. | |
about Scotland and used the example of the Scottish government. Look at | :01:50. | :01:53. | |
what they have done by bringing all these colleges together, as if it | :01:54. | :01:59. | |
was an example of a downsizing of the whole estate in Scotland. | :02:00. | :02:02. | |
Nothing could be further from the truth. Let me give him one example. | :02:03. | :02:08. | |
There is now not only one college in Ayrshire, Ayrshire College, but it | :02:09. | :02:15. | |
still retains the campus that was Ayrshire College, it retains the | :02:16. | :02:22. | |
campus that was Kilmarnock College, and the Scottish government has now | :02:23. | :02:28. | |
invested ?50 million expanding the campus. If I can draw attention that | :02:29. | :02:36. | |
having met businesses within Ayrshire, they have been nothing | :02:37. | :02:41. | |
but, mentoring about the students and businesses coming out of their | :02:42. | :02:52. | |
college. -- nothing but comes entry. -- nothing but full of praise. And | :02:53. | :02:58. | |
others could say things about their colleges and how they are served. | :02:59. | :03:03. | |
The Minister made claim part of the move was to create greater | :03:04. | :03:10. | |
efficiency. That would be clever. We have got currently, has many members | :03:11. | :03:14. | |
have said, an inefficient way of gathering taxes, we have telephone | :03:15. | :03:19. | |
calls that cannot be answered, letters that cannot be opened, let | :03:20. | :03:25. | |
alone responded to. So the way we will solve this is to cut, cut and | :03:26. | :03:32. | |
cut again. It does not make any sense. The Minister also indicated | :03:33. | :03:41. | |
some of the closures were going to happen in such a way that it was a | :03:42. | :03:45. | |
viable for people to move from a current location to a new one... You | :03:46. | :03:55. | |
have stolen my very good point. I will revert to trying that in | :03:56. | :04:02. | |
Aberdeen. I will give way to the honourable member. Madam Deputy | :04:03. | :04:06. | |
Speaker, I thank the member for being generous. Can he try this in | :04:07. | :04:13. | |
Enniskillen and South Tyrone where they had to go to Belfast, or maybe | :04:14. | :04:19. | |
Glasgow, across the Irish Sea? I know Enniskillen had many places in | :04:20. | :04:23. | |
Northern Ireland very well. I think he would agree that there are many | :04:24. | :04:29. | |
communities, particularly on the fringes of some of the vulnerable, | :04:30. | :04:33. | |
that will be afraid of the fact they have got to go to the big city in | :04:34. | :04:39. | |
Belfast to have their needs met. I agree entirely. There were a number | :04:40. | :04:43. | |
of contributions were members from the Northern Ireland group pointed | :04:44. | :04:49. | |
out the specialist nature of their needs because of things such as | :04:50. | :04:55. | |
cross-border issues and the like. If I turn now to the Honourable member | :04:56. | :04:59. | |
for Roehampton, sorry, Wolverhampton South East, who I have crossed | :05:00. | :05:05. | |
swords with on a number of occasions, he gave a typically | :05:06. | :05:09. | |
thoughtful and detailed speech and I was grateful for that. He will | :05:10. | :05:13. | |
forgive me if I cannot cover all of his points. I think one thing that | :05:14. | :05:18. | |
struck me about his opening conurbation was the way in which he | :05:19. | :05:22. | |
talked about, of course there is a need to have new technology and the | :05:23. | :05:28. | |
best of the new way of working, but it does not mean we should deny the | :05:29. | :05:31. | |
right of people to have human contact and get advice and guidance | :05:32. | :05:36. | |
which can only be provided by human beings. We are not Luddites opposing | :05:37. | :05:46. | |
the Government. Or robots! We want to see a balanced way of providing a | :05:47. | :05:51. | |
service to the people in this important area. He also pointed to | :05:52. | :05:55. | |
things he has rehearsed in other places as well, about the problems | :05:56. | :06:00. | |
of the tax gap. The way in which there is a great need to have people | :06:01. | :06:05. | |
with real expertise tackling different forms of tax evasion. He | :06:06. | :06:09. | |
gave many helpful quotes from many different professional groups, who | :06:10. | :06:14. | |
are with pass in opposition to what the Government is planning. The | :06:15. | :06:20. | |
member for Shipley I thought gave a particularly fine analysis of the | :06:21. | :06:25. | |
situation in his local area. I particularly enjoyed his freeze | :06:26. | :06:30. | |
where he pointed out the HMRC were proposing a cack-handed approach to | :06:31. | :06:35. | |
the way in which they were finding locations for their offices. -- his | :06:36. | :06:44. | |
praise. It was a compelling critique of what is taking place. I thank him | :06:45. | :06:49. | |
for that. The member for Dundee West pointed out that his city facing a | :06:50. | :06:57. | |
?1 billion expansion in many ways is now to be denied a tax Centre for | :06:58. | :07:01. | |
small businesses and individuals in small businesses and individuals in | :07:02. | :07:07. | |
that great city of Dundee. What a ridiculous proposition. He raised | :07:08. | :07:12. | |
the point that in Scotland, the Scottish government has a policy of | :07:13. | :07:17. | |
no compulsory redundancies. We have not heard those words tripping from | :07:18. | :07:23. | |
the time of any government minister. -- from that hung. -- from the | :07:24. | :07:31. | |
mouth. We talked about customer service needed. I thought she gave a | :07:32. | :07:38. | |
very balanced critique of the Government finding the means, very | :07:39. | :07:44. | |
cleverly, to find some areas of support and I pay tribute to her for | :07:45. | :07:52. | |
being so adept. The member for Bootle made a fine and reasoned | :07:53. | :07:55. | |
analysis, particularly on the human contact needed and also in the | :07:56. | :08:01. | |
disrespect that has been shown in the way in which this announcement | :08:02. | :08:06. | |
has been placed into the public. I think he was the first to raise at | :08:07. | :08:11. | |
this point. No doubt he will realise it was mirrored by many subsequent | :08:12. | :08:16. | |
divisions. That is something I would like to hear the covenant saying | :08:17. | :08:20. | |
something about in a contrite manner when we hear from them shortly. Like | :08:21. | :08:24. | |
others, he has raised the need for impact assessment, for a quality | :08:25. | :08:32. | |
impact assessment. I have found no effective impact assessment of any | :08:33. | :08:36. | |
sort connected to this major initiative. Completely ridiculous. | :08:37. | :08:41. | |
The member for South and West gave another really compelling case | :08:42. | :08:48. | |
regarding location, if surprisingly positive about the economic strategy | :08:49. | :08:51. | |
being pursued by the Government. -- South and West. -- Southland West. | :08:52. | :09:03. | |
He lent his voice to a critique that even if you believe in this type of | :09:04. | :09:08. | |
policy, you would not choose the locations which have been chosen in | :09:09. | :09:16. | |
which to enact it. The member for Cumberland South pointed out the way | :09:17. | :09:20. | |
in which the very significant large and well respected tax office is to | :09:21. | :09:27. | |
be thrown to the wind along with so many other offices in Scotland... He | :09:28. | :09:36. | |
called for greater scrutiny of the Government proposal in this regard. | :09:37. | :09:42. | |
The member for Taunton and Dean gave a pain of praise for her government, | :09:43. | :09:46. | |
claiming it was pursuing a policy of common sense. But yet managed to | :09:47. | :09:54. | |
come along, once again, with a critique about the locations which | :09:55. | :09:58. | |
were being chosen by the governed. In fact it appears from listening to | :09:59. | :10:03. | |
almost all the contributions from the Tory benches, they like the | :10:04. | :10:09. | |
policy, just did not agree with any one of the locations that have been | :10:10. | :10:19. | |
chosen. The member for Wrexham talk as well about the appalling way in | :10:20. | :10:24. | |
which this matter has been announced and the way in which it has shown | :10:25. | :10:30. | |
disrespect to this House and the way in which it has been pursued. I | :10:31. | :10:34. | |
particularly like the deep analysis, does not know his backside | :10:35. | :10:41. | |
from his elbow. The member for Bexhill and Bertil gave the most | :10:42. | :10:47. | |
loyal of speeches, I have to say. But I fear I must disagree with | :10:48. | :10:55. | |
almost every word! If I can steal a line from somebody else, he had all | :10:56. | :11:00. | |
the right words, just in the wrong order... | :11:01. | :11:07. | |
Gordon Brown would never have said that. One member made mention of the | :11:08. | :11:17. | |
Welsh language and the important of that, and the need for an impact | :11:18. | :11:21. | |
assessment. I would say that is also something that has been missing, the | :11:22. | :11:26. | |
lack of concern about what's happening to the Highlands and | :11:27. | :11:29. | |
Islands and the Gaelic speaking communities in Scotland. We need | :11:30. | :11:33. | |
proper impact analysis and proper care for the people in our | :11:34. | :11:38. | |
communities. The member for Dudley South called for effective care and | :11:39. | :11:44. | |
support for the workers involved, as did my honourable friend from | :11:45. | :11:49. | |
Glasgow who made at least six interventions on similar points. The | :11:50. | :11:57. | |
honourable member pointed out the way in which three offices in her | :11:58. | :12:01. | |
constituency are again being cast of the wind without any real and | :12:02. | :12:09. | |
effective consideration. I think I'm being encouraged to wind up. I'm | :12:10. | :12:22. | |
going to quickly mention that the members for Inverness, Sheffield, | :12:23. | :12:27. | |
Middlesbrough, Leeds North West, Bradford East... They were all | :12:28. | :12:33. | |
brilliant. All stunning in their analysis. | :12:34. | :12:42. | |
Thank you. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I'm not quite sure how to | :12:43. | :12:53. | |
follow the honourable gentleman! Protecting the country's tax | :12:54. | :12:58. | |
revenues is of course a vital part of our long-term economic plan and | :12:59. | :13:02. | |
it's particularly important given the contributions we expect the tax | :13:03. | :13:06. | |
system to make to delivering an overall surplus in 2019-20. We've | :13:07. | :13:13. | |
strengthened HMRC's ability to carry out their job as effectively and | :13:14. | :13:20. | |
visually as possible. In 2009-10 the tax gap was 7.3%. By 2014 it had | :13:21. | :13:29. | |
fallen to 6.4%, an additional ?14.5 billion in community of tax | :13:30. | :13:33. | |
collected. Over the last Parliament HMRC have secured an extra 100 | :13:34. | :13:37. | |
billion, including more than 38 billion from big businesses and 1.2 | :13:38. | :13:43. | |
billion from the UK's richest 6000 people. Our investments, including | :13:44. | :13:48. | |
?800 million in the summer budget, helping HMRC recover an additional | :13:49. | :14:00. | |
?7.2 billion, have been vital to achieving the success. It is clearly | :14:01. | :14:03. | |
important that the structure and organisation of HR Marcie fully fit | :14:04. | :14:05. | |
for the 21st-century and that is what these changes are about. Will | :14:06. | :14:11. | |
you give way? I won't just at the moment if that's all right with the | :14:12. | :14:15. | |
honourable gentleman. The primary objective is for HMRC to bring its | :14:16. | :14:20. | |
workforce close together in regional centres so they can collaborate | :14:21. | :14:24. | |
better, with more opportunities for economies of scale and scope and for | :14:25. | :14:28. | |
individuals career progression. This will allow them to deliver high | :14:29. | :14:33. | |
quality public services at a lower cost to the taxpayer. It's not | :14:34. | :14:39. | |
sufficient to have HMRC's 58,000 employees spread throughout 170 | :14:40. | :14:45. | |
offices the UK. Whilst he's on the subject, does he want to tell the | :14:46. | :14:50. | |
House what assessment he is made in socioeconomic terms of the damage | :14:51. | :14:53. | |
caused to the communities that have those tax offices and those workers | :14:54. | :15:01. | |
withdrawn from those communities? As the financial Secretary to the | :15:02. | :15:03. | |
Treasury said, this is about moving into more efficient, more effective | :15:04. | :15:10. | |
regional centres in which jobs will be created. The great majority of | :15:11. | :15:14. | |
people within travel time of those regional centres and will be able to | :15:15. | :15:21. | |
move. The consolidation... I won't at the moment. Can I see how things | :15:22. | :15:26. | |
go? I want to cover as much as possible. The consolidation has been | :15:27. | :15:31. | |
ongoing since the formation of HMRC in 2005, when the department had | :15:32. | :15:39. | |
over 570 offices. In ?2014 and one old style walk in and is cast as | :15:40. | :15:49. | |
with all the HMRC. HMRC plays with a dedicated need extra support service | :15:50. | :15:54. | |
whereby visuals go to meet them in their own or at a convenient | :15:55. | :15:59. | |
location. I met and spoken to HMRC staff who have changed from the | :16:00. | :16:03. | |
modern service to you and have her how much more effective it is is 40 | :16:04. | :16:12. | |
those who need the help. Keeping HMRC's valued employees fully | :16:13. | :16:15. | |
engaged has been a central part of this transformation programme. The | :16:16. | :16:20. | |
proposals were initially announced 18 months internally, and since then | :16:21. | :16:24. | |
HMRC has held around 2000 events talking to and consultant with | :16:25. | :16:28. | |
colleagues about these changes. I will. Can I say to the Minister that | :16:29. | :16:38. | |
what we've got here is a really lazy reorganisation by HMRC, just a | :16:39. | :16:41. | |
theatre have fixed size of the figures place in the region or the | :16:42. | :16:44. | |
one that is easiest for the London staff to get to by train. Can I ask | :16:45. | :16:49. | |
you to listen to this debate and go away and come back and look at this | :16:50. | :16:52. | |
thing from properly local perspective, covering the issues | :16:53. | :16:58. | |
raised in the debate today is that --? I'm very grateful to my | :16:59. | :17:04. | |
honourable friend and I can assure him that is not the way in which the | :17:05. | :17:10. | |
process was, about to identify the locations. It is a combination site | :17:11. | :17:16. | |
specific location criteria that my honourable friend enumerators | :17:17. | :17:20. | |
earlier, and also, critically, mapping out where HMRC staff live in | :17:21. | :17:27. | |
order to calculate what counts as reasonable travel distance and what | :17:28. | :17:33. | |
locations those individuals can reasonably travel to. In the case of | :17:34. | :17:37. | |
Leeds and Bradford, it is the case that there are 130 more staff | :17:38. | :17:42. | |
currently employed by HMRC who are within reasonable travel time of | :17:43. | :17:47. | |
Leeds and of Bradford. I'll take one more. What does the minister saves | :17:48. | :17:53. | |
to my constituents who have had half a century of connection with the | :17:54. | :18:00. | |
civil servants, which has 2500 jobs in it. What do you say to the town | :18:01. | :18:03. | |
that will be devastated when they move out? I say that there are a | :18:04. | :18:13. | |
great number of job opportunities in Liverpool will stop and quite nearby | :18:14. | :18:17. | |
to the honourable gentleman's constituency. This will be a | :18:18. | :18:21. | |
different operation where there will be more disciplines: Located in the | :18:22. | :18:26. | |
same building, where there will be more opportunities for a | :18:27. | :18:30. | |
collaborative and effective working, and also career progression and | :18:31. | :18:33. | |
development for the people concerned. Everyone working for HMRC | :18:34. | :18:38. | |
will have the opportunity to discuss their personal circumstances with | :18:39. | :18:42. | |
their manager ahead of any office closures or moves, including any | :18:43. | :18:45. | |
issues that need to be taken into account when making decisions. | :18:46. | :18:50. | |
Furthermore, as I just said, HMRC has mapped out the geographical | :18:51. | :18:53. | |
location of all its employees to work out which are the locations | :18:54. | :20:47. | |
What counts as reasonable travel time? That will depend on the | :20:48. | :20:54. | |
circumstances of the individual, including considering things like | :20:55. | :21:04. | |
caring responsibilities... Typically a reasonable travel time is taken to | :21:05. | :21:08. | |
be around an hour, but that does not mean that is correct that does not | :21:09. | :21:13. | |
mean that is correct for everybody in every circumstance in every | :21:14. | :21:18. | |
location. A number of members, including the honourable gentleman | :21:19. | :21:23. | |
members from Middlesbrough, and elsewhere, complained about the | :21:24. | :21:26. | |
manner in which the announcement came out. I make no apology for the | :21:27. | :21:32. | |
fact staff were told... Staff were told first. On the day of the | :21:33. | :21:38. | |
announcement, the entire HMRC senior team was out in the field at the | :21:39. | :21:43. | |
office locations in order to carry out one-to-one discussions with | :21:44. | :21:51. | |
staff. The direction of travel had been shared with staff some 18 | :21:52. | :21:54. | |
months earlier and in the intervening time some 2000 events up | :21:55. | :21:58. | |
and down the country to discuss the changes. In terms of contact and | :21:59. | :22:05. | |
discussion with MPs, I can commit that HMRC will be happy to discuss | :22:06. | :22:17. | |
with MPs. If you'll forgive me, because of the time. I wanted to | :22:18. | :22:21. | |
respond to a couple of the specific points that honourable members have | :22:22. | :22:26. | |
raised in relation to their constituencies. On the question of | :22:27. | :22:31. | |
Shipley and Bradford, my honourable friend the financial Secretary, as | :22:32. | :22:37. | |
they know, has agreed to meet the Bradford MPs. It's also the case | :22:38. | :22:41. | |
that the chief executives of HMRC are due to meet as well to discuss | :22:42. | :22:48. | |
this issue. We heard about both Chatham and Chelmsford and I should | :22:49. | :22:54. | |
explain that those are both two stage programmes with a transitional | :22:55. | :22:59. | |
arrangement in place for three or four years at Maidstone and Southend | :23:00. | :23:02. | |
respectively. The honourable gentleman from 2-1 raised the point | :23:03. | :23:12. | |
about the location centre it stretches over a number of years and | :23:13. | :23:17. | |
I think it's right that is you going to a commercial negotiation over | :23:18. | :23:20. | |
premises, and this came up separately in the debate in a | :23:21. | :23:27. | |
different context, you don't identify the exact location that you | :23:28. | :23:30. | |
have in mind because of course, as his honourable friend says, that | :23:31. | :23:34. | |
would put up the price that was asked. I want to reassure the | :23:35. | :23:38. | |
honourable lady from Lloyd Kun route that HMRC is very conscious about | :23:39. | :23:43. | |
the importance of the wench language service and intends there to be no | :23:44. | :23:47. | |
denigration of service to Welsh speakers as a result of these | :23:48. | :23:51. | |
changes, and also to reassure colleagues from Northern Ireland | :23:52. | :23:53. | |
that we expect the number of staff in Northern Ireland to go up at the | :23:54. | :23:59. | |
end of this period rather than down. HMRC recognise the unique issues in | :24:00. | :24:05. | |
the province. The Scotland specific proposals will see the opening of | :24:06. | :24:09. | |
two regional centres in Glasgow and Edinburgh and a specialist crime | :24:10. | :24:13. | |
Centre will be maintained at Gartcosh. The discussions with | :24:14. | :24:18. | |
individual employees are ongoing. HMRC's presents in Scotland will | :24:19. | :24:22. | |
remain consistent at 12% of the total workforce, as against around | :24:23. | :24:31. | |
8%. As against 8% of the total United Kingdom population. To | :24:32. | :24:34. | |
respond to the honourable member the Dundee West, the 600 jobs at Sid | :24:35. | :24:39. | |
Lowe House will move to the Department for Work and Pensions | :24:40. | :24:42. | |
whilst for those that Caledonia House who are outside reasonable | :24:43. | :24:46. | |
travel of the regional centre we will do everything possible to find | :24:47. | :24:49. | |
alternative options working one-to-one with those people. I | :24:50. | :24:59. | |
can't because I'm coming... I'll As many as are of the opinion, say | :25:00. | :25:05. | |
"aye". To the contrary, "no". The ayes have it. The question is as on | :25:06. | :25:11. | |
the order paper. As many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the | :25:12. | :25:16. | |
contrary, "no". Division, clear the lobby. | :25:17. | :25:19. |