14/12/2015 House of Commons


14/12/2015

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Order. Questions to be Secretary of State for Communities and Local

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Government. Question number one, Mr Speaker. Hear, hear!

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Thank you Mr Speaker. The northern powerhouse is running across the

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departments. The northern powerhouse investment fund, ?400 billion, the

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devolution deals that are being agreed right across the north of

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England and of course the doubling of the enterprise lands in the

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northern powerhouse that were announced at the spending review by

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my right, Noble friend. Earlier this year the government invested over

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?113 million in high-performance computing in my constituency. A

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joint venture between the science and technology for facilities

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Council and IBM, bringing high wage job. Does my right honourable friend

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agree that investment in technology and science is key to be growth of

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the northern powerhouse? I command my honourable friend's important

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significant work in this area. Is a passionate advocate for this. This

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is one more example of the investment does government is

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putting in in order to build the northern powerhouse to read powers

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our economy. -- rebalance our economy. Information spending is

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being it protected and we are investing in the economic growth of

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the future and this is a great example of that. He deserves

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commendation for the work he has done in delivering it. When is the

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government going to stop patronizing the North? We are a powerhouse. You

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must be investment in it infrastructure. We are the people

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who still make things in the country. We make the wealth of this

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country. Many of people in this part of the world live parasitically on

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our efforts! Stop patronizing! Start investing! I welcome the honourable

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member's enthusiasm for the northern powerhouse as a project. This

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government is recognising the potential of the North to drive our

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economy. The difference that the North can make if it is invested in

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and crucially if people in the North are given real control over their

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own future. That is what we are doing and what the devolution agenda

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is about and what the investment I have spoken about are about. We will

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deliver it and big a big difference to his constituents and mine. Thank

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you Mr Speaker. On this question, can he tell me what sport he is

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giving to small businesses within the northern powerhouse? Should they

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benefit from all procurements that are coming from that? The northern

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powerhouse investment fund, that ?400 million, will be targeted

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specifically at small and medium enterprises. We've got growth hubs

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across the North which are driving out investment. You will see our big

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industries succeed and thrive the economy, but small and medium

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enterprises are important as well. We want to invest and give local

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people the support they need. Thank him for his answer. He will be aware

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that Scottish government procure compared to the UK government's

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four. -- 26%. City deals can be drivers for growth. I welcome those

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that have already been agreed and we will continue to have talks

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including with some of the great cities and city regions in Scotland

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about where we can go further and what more we can do. I hope that we

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can and do course in Livermore because we can already see the

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difference those deals are making -- Livermore. On behalf of my

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constituency we think those who are helping now, those areas in the

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north, so badly reflected -- affected by the recent flooding. The

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LNS recently reported that the North is falling further behind as a

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result of poor investment -- ONS. It is getting worse. The average

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business now produces ?42,000 a year undervalue while in the Northeast

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the averages on ?18,000. Any place of more cuts will he now includes

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afflicted Dominic specific -- will he include specific is apples later

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this week? The right honourable member raises the important point

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that our E economy has for too long been unbalanced. The northern

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powerhouse as a project is to invest an additional weakening Mark --

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answer weekend, the potential. We will see that that investment is

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going in, but more importantly going hand-in-hand with local control,

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giving it to the people who know best how to grow the economies of

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the North because they live in them and they are part the. -- they are

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part of them. Stephan Phillips. Where is the fellow? Mr Andy

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McDonald. Thank you Mr Speaker. I will answer questions three and six

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together. Authorities have continued to provide an excellent service

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whilst making sensible savings. The number of incidents is 42% lower

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than ten years ago and fire deaths and injuries are at an all-time low.

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The existing grant distribution formula disproportionately penalizes

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authorities such as Cleveland, regardless of industrial risk and

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other performance. Can he explain what assessment will be made to

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identify less efficient authorities who can make surveys and more

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importantly what capacity these authorities have to make further

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savings? I'm grateful for his question. Can I use it as an

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opportunity to pay tribute to the magnificent work of firefighters,

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who with the other emergency services, can counsel staff

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engineers and Armed Forces and the whole community have worked

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tirelessly to protect and help people during the flooding in the

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north of England. On the particular question that the honourable

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gentleman asked, fire authorities have said had spending reductions of

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less than local authorities over the last five years of copy at a copy as

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given in the figures of how they performed very well and managed

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those cuts. The National Audit Office has said that the picture is

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one of financial health. What I would say in relation to his

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particular case is that the spending power in Cleveland for example, for

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the fire authority, is ?48 ahead of the population compared to ?37 that

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is the national average. That is reflected in the formula. I'm sure

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the Minister will know he has ornamented over the years there have

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been cuts to the fire service. And he has mentioned the point that fire

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service... Protect the work they are doing in places like Cumberland. So

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that should be working on decent wages. What guarantee can he make

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that local fire and rescue services will not be negatively impacted if

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taken over by local PC sees? As he knows there is a consultation out

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across the country on whether we should remove some of the barriers

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to a better local collaboration between all of the blue light

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services. That is to be initiated locally. It is to make it possible

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if they want to. And for the purpose of providing a better service if

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those changes would help. Can the Secretary of State confirm to the

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House that greater collaboration between the fire services and the

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police services, necessary to reduce costs, will not indent this tension

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between firefighters and police going forward? I can confirm that.

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They are two students think services -- two distinct services. I think as

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he would hit New Orleans, the opportunity to work together should

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be taken when ever that can make a difference to people on the ground

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-- I think as he would notice. And argument particular to local

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authorities. With the encouraged Wilshire counsel, conservative

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control, but I doubt we don't encourage the fire service who have

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been negotiating with them instead to seek to find common errors of

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cooperation from the Council? I say, that is an answer for the services

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locally. The consultation proposes requiring that there is discussions

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taking place, but what they conclude is up to them.

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Hear, hear! Thank you Mr Speaker. I would like

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to pay tribute to my response to be fire and rescue services to the

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floods in Cumbria and other northern areas. The service are rescuing

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people who have been at Walter from flooding High streets and homes and

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rescuing livestock, solidifying damage to rural communities. Yet all

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those services who are responding have had cuts over the last five

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years. We've lost nearly 7500 fighters, that's one in eight. And

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over 12% in the local fire rescue services. Be fire services is a key

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junction now. Is not safe effective or efficient to keep cutting

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resources. Does the Secretary of State agree that any further cuts

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will further the damage the fire and rescue services ability to meet the

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risk in local major incidents such as the loop recent floods? And will

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he commit to add the resources so be fire and rescue services can

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continue to contribute to national resilience on the scale and at the

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speed that the public aspect? Hear, hear!

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I draw the honourable ladies attention to be report that was

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published quite recently. It says the picture of today's is one of

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financial health and says that fire authorities have not changed

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emergency response standards as a result of budget cuts. The evidence

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is when all but one fire authority is increased its reserves during the

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period from 2010-2015, by 67% in real terms, this tells me that the

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fire services are coping well with the reductions that they have been

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made. The Staffordshire fire authority I should say decided to

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build a brand-new fire station but reduced the appliances to a half of

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what they presently are. Would he work with Matthew Ellis, the police

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and crime commissioner and Staffordshire, who has good positive

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plans to combine the police and fire service for the betterment of the

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whole County? Hear, hear! That is the purpose of the

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consultation that we have embarked on to remove the barriers that have

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prevented that kind of collaboration. I'm interested to see

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what he has to say about the proposals and Staffordshire. Thank

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you Mr Speaker. Minister Brendan Lewis. With permissions I will

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answer questions four, 13, and 18 together. We have delivered 270,000

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affordable homes since 2010. Specifically, the 2011-15 affordable

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homes around delivered 192,000, it exceeding expectations -23,000 homes

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-- 193,000 homes. Is not surprising he is growing about this am a but I

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can assure him that ?250,000 is not considered affordable. Will be

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definition of affordability be changed based on the income in that

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market rate? I will say she is referring to be massive Orr maximum

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price. -- the maximum price. Want to take off that 20% discount we are

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going to be doing, it actually helps buying home affordable for more

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people again. Hear, hear! In Worcester, up courting to Council

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figures 216 new affordable homes in the last financial year, a record of

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any year since 1997. It was delivered by the conservative

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administration the year after a labour and live them -- Liberal

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Democrats delivered fewer. A good example of a good well-worn local

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authority delivering housing for its local constituents. We are

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determined to stand by those authorities and work with them. That

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is why in the spending review I am delighted that ?1 billion was given

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to deliver 4000 affordable homes across the country -- ?8 billion.

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Given the property crisis in London, exceeded half ?1 million, first time

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buyers will need to learn that ?70,000 is needed to buy their first

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home. Does the Minister consider this affordable? And is not what is

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he going to do to put homeownership in the reach of the many and not

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just the few at the top? And that the honourable gentleman is now

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joining our cause and wanted to make sure we build more homes that are

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affordable for people to buy. 67% six 2010 is a good start. We want to

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go further. That is why we want to deliver more, giving people a wider

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opportunity to get onto the housing market. Also homes we have helped to

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buy records in just a 5% deposit. Some members opposite believe that

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homes can be made more affordable, for example in London, by returning

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to be bad old days of rent control. Can I ask the ministers and many

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others in this house that the government has no intention of

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giving any future mayor powers to be able to reintroduce rent control in

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London? Hear, hear! As my honourable friend will know we

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are keen to see more and more devolution and localism of power,

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but I am happy to say to him that this government will not allow it to

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fall into a trap after the party opposite encouraged me to do. The

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reality is that rent control drives the pie down and actually ends up

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looking rents up. So we are against and will not be doing that under

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this government. Hear, hear! Thank you Mr Speaker. The Minister

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has talked about extra housing investment. I wouldn't want him or

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the chancellor who has set the same thing to mislead the House. After

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the Chancellor's Autumn Statement, the annual housing investment for

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the government will be ?1.7 million. -- one 7p. At the money inherited in

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2010 from labour it was the 1p. Not an increase, but a cuts. Not a

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doubling, but almost a have. Maybe this is why his government has built

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30,000 fewer affordable homes to buy Varosha home ownership than Labour

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did in the last five years Hear, hear!

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I'm somewhat surprised the honourable gentleman raised the

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question. The lowest level of housing in this country since the

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1920s, as well be Chancellor has not done under this government is now

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seeing the biggest building programme in about 30 years. He's

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wrong on the big picture as well. Under our national affordable

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housing programme the number of homes built each year was bigger

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than his under the last government. The hard truth is that for so many

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people, the dreams of buying their own homes are totally unaffordable

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and out of reach. Now he plans to fiddle the figures again by changing

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the definition of affordable to include so-called starter homes that

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can be sold at up to ?450,000. So with the at least agree with Labour

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and the building societies Association that the discount on

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these starter homes should be permanent. Not a windfall cash at

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the end of five years, but there for the next generation of first time

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buyers as well. Hear, hear! Afraid the honourable gentleman, I

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have a big disagreement. He seems to want to stop Property owners having

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the right to deal with their property in the way that any other

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property owner would. We want to support people to buy their own home

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and that is why we want to keep building more for people at that

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discount for first time buyers and we are proud that under this, the

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conservative led Coalition, we saw an increase in affordable homes

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unlike the loss of 420,000 we saw in the years of Labour. Question number

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five, Mr Speaker. The Autumn Statement did come from

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?1 billion for over 400,000 affordable homes including the

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shared ownership homes and ?2.3 billion towards delivering 200,000

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starter homes. And held to by steam loss on the 1st of December, means

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it has been extended through 2021. That means just a 40% equity is

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being provided by the government for people in London and that will be

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launched in 2016. I was pleased to recently attend the opening of

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prospect housing. New development of 11 Apartments meant for shared

:17:42.:17:44.

ownership and I will cover the notions introduced to expand this

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being. Can ask the Minister what steps he is taking to encourage

:17:49.:17:52.

local authority to build more shared ownership housing and ensure these

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developments utilised Brownfield sites was back very happy. We will

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relax on the move. Local authority restrictions to shared ownership to

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make it easier for people to find the right home for their families.

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Brownfield also has limited housing and we are committed to ensure that

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those sites have planned commission housing by 2020. Number seven.

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Since 2010 we have delivered to under 70,000 affordable homes,

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including nearly 200,000 homes for rent. Delivering more homes to every

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parent who have and investment. Someone 7p to deliver affordable

:18:39.:18:47.

renting homes. Ministers attention to the question I actually asked

:18:48.:18:50.

which is about social renting housing not affordable. Will he

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confirm that in last moment the only social renting housing built would

:18:56.:19:00.

have been funded before the 2010 General election. And there is no

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funding at all in this Parliament for social rented housing. Together

:19:04.:19:06.

with the Right to Buy for housing association tenants on the sell-outs

:19:07.:19:12.

of no value properties, to become a nations of those policies mean fewer

:19:13.:19:16.

social renting homes available for people and longer waits on the

:19:17.:19:19.

waiting list for people who want one? Actually there was a 70%

:19:20.:19:25.

increase in social housing waiting list under the last Labour

:19:26.:19:27.

administration. It has actually fallen thanks to flick civilities

:19:28.:19:31.

we've created and effect we more social housing built in the last

:19:32.:19:36.

Parliament than the lads 13 years of labour before that. I encourage

:19:37.:19:44.

local authorities to go forward building more. Thank you Mr Speaker.

:19:45.:19:50.

The building of genuinely affordable homes for social rent and this

:19:51.:19:53.

country has plummeted. No matter how much the Minister tries to dress up

:19:54.:19:59.

the government's doings, his own figures are clear and speak for

:20:00.:20:03.

themselves. In 2010 there were more than 38,000 homes built for social

:20:04.:20:09.

rent, but by 2014 - 15, the figure was a truly dismal line priced at

:20:10.:20:13.

500, with the housing and planning build making it virtually impossible

:20:14.:20:18.

to build homes for social rent. And eight disgraceful sneaking of

:20:19.:20:25.

proposals for local authority tennis. What does this government

:20:26.:20:28.

have against people who rely on social housing to make ends meet was

:20:29.:20:31.

ONS is the Minister going to address the huge shortfall in social

:20:32.:20:39.

housing? I would I withdraw the honourable lady's to a few moments

:20:40.:20:44.

ago when I outlined the last five years of this party's government and

:20:45.:20:48.

that it oversaw more being built in the entire 13 years of labour.

:20:49.:20:52.

Actually, affordable housing drop by 24,000 homes. Still over ?2 billion

:20:53.:20:57.

ahead be required ability for local authorities to go and build more. We

:20:58.:21:00.

have been very clear that we will help everybody who wants to aspire

:21:01.:21:04.

to on their own home through the extension of Right to Buy and

:21:05.:21:06.

delivering starter homes across the country. Viguera the honourable

:21:07.:21:14.

member would be aware of the services of this department are

:21:15.:21:17.

devolved in Scotland. Therefore there are consequences of spending

:21:18.:21:21.

decisions that are made as affecting this department and he's got his

:21:22.:21:23.

government as a result of the spending review. Will see a 14%

:21:24.:21:28.

increase and the capital budget. A statement the Chancellor confirmed

:21:29.:21:33.

extension of Right to Buy for housing associations affected for

:21:34.:21:38.

privatizing them. We are aware that this has decimated social housing

:21:39.:21:42.

stock across the UK, something that the Scottish government has

:21:43.:21:48.

recognised in Scotland. The government, so-called one-for-one

:21:49.:21:53.

replacement, under the new Right to Buy hasn't been funded by the

:21:54.:21:55.

government funding. With the Minister explained what effect these

:21:56.:21:59.

proposals have an housing in Scotland? The honourable member is

:22:00.:22:03.

quite right to point out the at least one-to-one replacement that is

:22:04.:22:06.

the intention of this policy which is welcome by those of us on this

:22:07.:22:10.

side of the House. The spending review announcements will have a

:22:11.:22:16.

violent consequences impact on the government of Scotland's capital

:22:17.:22:19.

budget. That amounts to ?1.9 billion added to the what they already have

:22:20.:22:23.

to ensure the Scottish Government is able to deliver on the things they

:22:24.:22:26.

want to do for Scotland just as we want to deliver on our objectives

:22:27.:22:30.

and manifesto priorities in England and Wales. Hear, hear!

:22:31.:22:32.

Question number ten. Thank you Mr Speaker. There are

:22:33.:22:40.

strict test to protect people and property from flooding with all

:22:41.:22:42.

local councils are expected to follow. These including ensuring new

:22:43.:22:45.

development does not increase flood risk elsewhere. Grateful to be

:22:46.:22:53.

minister for that response. It is my experience that the environment

:22:54.:22:59.

agency often does object planning applications, even in flood areas.

:23:00.:23:06.

Especially where other areas could be caused to flow. Will be secretary

:23:07.:23:09.

of state actually look at the policies and the practice of the

:23:10.:23:12.

environment agency in this respect? I certainly will do what my

:23:13.:23:18.

honourable friend recommends. I recognised his constituency

:23:19.:23:21.

experience and indeed his expertise as Vice Chairman of the all party

:23:22.:23:26.

group on this matter. It is the case that national planning policy in the

:23:27.:23:35.

MPPF says that any new application in an area of flooding risk must

:23:36.:23:38.

demonstrate that the area will be safe for its lifetime and will not

:23:39.:23:42.

increase flood risk elsewhere and will possibly reduce it overall.

:23:43.:23:45.

That test had to be passed for the development to be committed. Thank

:23:46.:23:51.

you Mr Speaker. At the time to recognise the fantastic work that

:23:52.:23:54.

firefighters do invocations of flood. Statutory duty for fire and

:23:55.:24:01.

rescue services to respond to flooding? Hear, hear!

:24:02.:24:08.

I'm grateful. He offers me to pay tribute to the fantastic work that

:24:09.:24:11.

is being done in the north of England, but has been done already

:24:12.:24:14.

years in times of emergency like this right across the country. I

:24:15.:24:18.

will remind the honourable gentleman that any discussions we will have to

:24:19.:24:25.

I will consider the point he has but forward. In my constituency we have

:24:26.:24:29.

a bridge that has been partially washed away and the roles aside it

:24:30.:24:34.

have been caved in because of flooding. Will my honourable friend

:24:35.:24:37.

give us assurances that everything can be done as quickly as possible

:24:38.:24:40.

to make sure this report is put back together as if it's an ad vital

:24:41.:24:53.

place. I appreciate him giving that to his community in response to

:24:54.:24:58.

conditions that have been faced. We are determined to ensure that things

:24:59.:25:03.

are right. We are working closely with the authorities across the

:25:04.:25:06.

areas. The funds that have been made available so far will allow the

:25:07.:25:11.

assessment of what is required for restoration to be made, but then I

:25:12.:25:14.

will be followed with the repairs themselves. Is the secretary of

:25:15.:25:20.

state think it is right that the government are helping new people by

:25:21.:25:24.

their own home through the Help to Buy scheme, but those very same

:25:25.:25:27.

people will not be eligible for the flood insurance and the flood rate

:25:28.:25:31.

that this government is introducing and rent April? The negotiation with

:25:32.:25:37.

the insurance companies has been very clear that we want to make sure

:25:38.:25:40.

that everyone in the country can benefit from the insurance that

:25:41.:25:45.

gives them the peace of mind when they buy a new property.

:25:46.:25:56.

Over 1700 communities are preparing neighbourhood plans to shake of

:25:57.:26:00.

elements and their area. Diesel form part of the development plan and be

:26:01.:26:06.

used to develop application. The reform will speed up and simplify

:26:07.:26:12.

the process and allow people to leave my kitties to better engage in

:26:13.:26:15.

local planning. The Minister will be aware that the planning Inspector

:26:16.:26:19.

has deferred a decision on housing development plan. The ad has actual

:26:20.:26:25.

shirt counsel to come back after a fuel query. What measures will be in

:26:26.:26:33.

place to make sure that we do not have aggressive applications against

:26:34.:26:35.

the best interest of the savagery of the town? Having a 5 euros land

:26:36.:26:43.

supply and plays put local planning authorities and a place to resist

:26:44.:26:49.

unwanted development copy furthermore, national planning...

:26:50.:26:56.

I'm sure her local authority is well aware of that, and will make

:26:57.:27:02.

decisions. Last Thursday as business questions, I raised the case of

:27:03.:27:11.

something in my constituency where a small property that is now privately

:27:12.:27:17.

rented has been converted into a house of multiple occupation, as

:27:18.:27:22.

part of the Asylum dispersal programme. Does the Minister

:27:23.:27:27.

understand the dismay of the neighbours of this property, that

:27:28.:27:32.

the owners are able to circumvent landing and license in regulations

:27:33.:27:38.

because there were only be five people house that property? I cannot

:27:39.:27:44.

comment on an individual case without knowing all of the facts,

:27:45.:27:48.

but I would refer the honourable subsuming to look at the measures

:27:49.:27:52.

that we are breaking through in the housing and planning bill,

:27:53.:27:59.

particularly dealing with landlords. The interpretations of neighbourhood

:28:00.:28:03.

plans has been causing difficulties in the beautiful village of Hook

:28:04.:28:09.

Norton. With the Minister meet with me to discuss how the can ensure

:28:10.:28:13.

that the neighbourhood plan is adhered to? And the great of them is

:28:14.:28:22.

that a Hook Norton is, it is a home to a fantastic brewery. I do hear

:28:23.:28:28.

what he is saying and I will meet with her or I am sure my horrible

:28:29.:28:31.

friend, the housing and planning Minister well. -- honourable. The

:28:32.:28:39.

communities in New York need a family housing built, on the York

:28:40.:28:46.

Central side. We hear that high-value flats will be placed on

:28:47.:28:50.

that side, will the Minister listened to local communities to

:28:51.:28:57.

ensure that their voices prioritise? I think the government has

:28:58.:29:00.

demonstrated that we want local people to have a strong voice to

:29:01.:29:04.

neighbourhood planning and in relation to the issue, the Honorable

:29:05.:29:09.

Lady mentioned, I am sure that is on the record and her local planning

:29:10.:29:12.

authorities should be listening to the concerns and the comments from

:29:13.:29:16.

local residents. In the council areas where there is no adopted

:29:17.:29:21.

local plan, local communities are continually let down by the planning

:29:22.:29:26.

process. Would he give consideration in these circumstances to allow the

:29:27.:29:31.

objectors the right to appeal? I think my Honorable friend makes a

:29:32.:29:36.

very good point. By 2017, we will make sure that all areas have a

:29:37.:29:41.

local planning place, and the housing and planning bill sets out

:29:42.:29:45.

in some detail how we will achieve that. Question number 12. Thank you,

:29:46.:29:53.

the government allow with the Scottish Government is working with

:29:54.:29:58.

the Highland Council to identify opportunities for Highland city

:29:59.:30:03.

region deal. Those discussions are ongoing, they are positive and

:30:04.:30:07.

constructive, I hope they will lead to the outcome that I'm sure the

:30:08.:30:10.

honourable member hopes for. They are right to raise the issue. They

:30:11.:30:14.

are a great driver for growth and help us realise economic potential.

:30:15.:30:19.

That is what we want to see. Highland Council has submitted a

:30:20.:30:23.

detailed plan for the deal investment with the support of the

:30:24.:30:27.

Scottish Government. Will be minister committed to advancing

:30:28.:30:31.

discussions and indicate a timescale for finalizing the process to allow

:30:32.:30:37.

the deal to get under way? Discussions are already under way.

:30:38.:30:41.

Officials met with local representatives on the 2nd of

:30:42.:30:44.

December, we will continue to work through those plans to ensure that

:30:45.:30:47.

they are robust and will deliver what is needed and that they meet

:30:48.:30:51.

the requirement that we look to place on such deals and that they

:30:52.:30:54.

have the support they need in order to continue. We wish to see them

:30:55.:30:59.

progress positively. That is the assurance I can give at this time,

:31:00.:31:03.

these things need to be done properly and thoroughly as they are

:31:04.:31:06.

taking forward. Number 14 Mr Speaker. I will be presented in

:31:07.:31:12.

local government financial settlement for 2016 and one the 17th

:31:13.:31:18.

of the house. I will show how we will lay out a sustainable

:31:19.:31:21.

settlement and pave the way for future reforms, providing growth and

:31:22.:31:27.

efficiency, such as local government has requested. Research by the dose

:31:28.:31:34.

of lounging foundation has so that there are some areas that have great

:31:35.:31:39.

need and have seen a large cuts in government funding. This is broken a

:31:40.:31:45.

historic link. Over the last five years, councils have had severe cuts

:31:46.:31:48.

to their funding while other areas have seen an increase. Forecasts

:31:49.:31:54.

suggest that they will be at least a lost by 2020. What's with the

:31:55.:31:59.

government do to make sure funding for local authorities to reflect the

:32:00.:32:03.

needs of the people who live there? What I would say is that she would

:32:04.:32:06.

wait to see what the settlement has in store. But what she should know,

:32:07.:32:12.

from the last two years is that the spending power for rural, and ?2240

:32:13.:32:20.

per dwelling is 70% above the national average at average. It is

:32:21.:32:32.

higher than it was in 2010. Fistulas in my area, pay an average of ?80

:32:33.:32:39.

more and Council tax, yet receive ?130 length and government funding.

:32:40.:32:44.

This impacts local services. Does the Secretary of State agree it is

:32:45.:32:47.

time to look for fairer funding for all taxpayers? What I would say is

:32:48.:32:55.

that Iraq demise because of the delivering services in areas with a

:32:56.:33:01.

very smart area is high for obvious reasons. The role services delivery

:33:02.:33:08.

Grant was used to reflect those cross. It has been increased since

:33:09.:33:14.

it has been introduced. When we came to make the financial settlement, I

:33:15.:33:18.

will put that in mind as he make the assessment of what is needed? The

:33:19.:33:27.

report found that there was a limited understanding of authorities

:33:28.:33:34.

five sustainability. Can be Secretary and advises house of his

:33:35.:33:37.

understanding of load taxpayer authorities. And the in

:33:38.:33:43.

sustainability with the percentage across the board cut. Does he

:33:44.:33:48.

understand that the removal of the grant completely and the retention

:33:49.:33:52.

of all business tax without distribution will drive these

:33:53.:33:56.

authorities right under the ground? As a former council leader, I would

:33:57.:34:00.

have thought that the honourable lady with the inmate position to

:34:01.:34:05.

welcome the settlement for local government. Not only provided over

:34:06.:34:13.

the course of the four years a protection for the local government.

:34:14.:34:16.

We did what the local government requested which was to make money

:34:17.:34:21.

available for the care of the elderly duties also care preset. I

:34:22.:34:25.

would have thought that her experience would have author of two

:34:26.:34:35.

that. Does this reflect the pressures on top-tier authorities

:34:36.:34:39.

for social care costs and restate the opportunities for greater

:34:40.:34:43.

integration of health and adult social care spending in this area

:34:44.:34:49.

has supported by others? He is absolutely right. I had a

:34:50.:34:53.

communication from the local Government Association that said

:34:54.:34:58.

that they estimated the gap is unaddressed would be to .9 billion

:34:59.:35:02.

in the spending review settlement, the Chancellor allocated three and a

:35:03.:35:09.

half billion to reflect the needs of helping our elderly population. That

:35:10.:35:14.

was a significant result for local government. Has become too big

:35:15.:35:17.

settlement for individual authorities, we will make sure that

:35:18.:35:20.

that is in the hands of local people. At least 340 unaccompanied

:35:21.:35:30.

child asylum seeker disappeared in this country between January and

:35:31.:35:34.

September. That is twice as many as the calendar year before. This leads

:35:35.:35:39.

them at terrifying risk of abuse, sexual exploitation and

:35:40.:35:43.

radicalisation. Councils they funding cuts means that they don't

:35:44.:35:47.

have the resources to protect these children. Why is the government

:35:48.:35:52.

going ahead in these circumstances with a further cut to the

:35:53.:35:56.

unaccompanied child asylum seeker grant? What I would say is that

:35:57.:36:02.

these are important strategy responsibilities of local

:36:03.:36:05.

authorities. It is vital that they do start seven. To the settlement,

:36:06.:36:08.

the Chancellor has made available funds to local government to make

:36:09.:36:11.

sure that the cast supplemented by the end of the period, the financial

:36:12.:36:16.

spending review period is the same as the beginning. That is a positive

:36:17.:36:23.

result for local government. Number 15 Mr Speaker. Thank you Mr Speaker,

:36:24.:36:28.

the number of local authorities that have resettled Syrian of refugees

:36:29.:36:34.

and changes as more arrived. I don't think it is practical to give a

:36:35.:36:43.

number on the authorities participating, around 50 local

:36:44.:36:46.

authorities confirmed places before Christmas. Does the ministers share

:36:47.:36:53.

my concerns about the rise of a phobia in the country filled by

:36:54.:37:04.

right wing of? How should they deal with and how should they support

:37:05.:37:10.

refugees? I do share his concern about Islam a phobia, as far as the

:37:11.:37:18.

refugees who have arrived here, I have gotten nothing but a warm

:37:19.:37:21.

welcome from all parts of the UK. I'm certain that will continue.

:37:22.:37:28.

Local authorities seem to be confused about their role in this,

:37:29.:37:32.

is there anything the Minister can do can add clarity and hurry things

:37:33.:37:41.

along? Dealings with local authorities is on particular cases,

:37:42.:37:45.

we do not have any power to insist that refugees go to certain places

:37:46.:37:51.

but we are working with, County councils and district councils, and

:37:52.:37:56.

a metropolitan borough areas. It is a very flexible system, all I can

:37:57.:38:00.

say is it it has worked very well. The number of places that have been

:38:01.:38:03.

offered is the equivalent to the number of refugees that are

:38:04.:38:12.

arriving. Planning appeals are determined in accordance with

:38:13.:38:16.

development plan, unless said otherwise. Once brought in, and

:38:17.:38:21.

neighbourhood plan is part of a development plan. As the Minister

:38:22.:38:25.

won no, a few weeks ago, villages were going to the polls to vote on

:38:26.:38:29.

the referendum on their neighbourhood plan. At the very same

:38:30.:38:34.

time, a Secretary of State was allowing a housing, a planning

:38:35.:38:39.

appeal in their area. How can the Minister and Sun Microsystems after

:38:40.:38:43.

all of the world that they put it, what assurance can they put in that

:38:44.:38:54.

work is worthwhile? I'm happy he took interest in local matters as

:38:55.:39:01.

does the. He he will be happy that I cannot comment on individual cases.

:39:02.:39:09.

The letter provided with them sent out the difference between them. And

:39:10.:39:13.

why it has been done, the Secretary of State will always give

:39:14.:39:16.

appropriate weight to neighbourhood plan. It is a important part of our

:39:17.:39:27.

vetting process. We welcome them. Thank you Mr Speaker, we will be

:39:28.:39:32.

presenting our proposals for a sustainable and fair 2016 and 17

:39:33.:39:37.

local government finance settlement to the house. We propose to consider

:39:38.:39:41.

our approach from being dependent, to benefiting from promoting local

:39:42.:39:49.

growth. Spending on adult social care has fallen by ?65 per person in

:39:50.:39:56.

the most deprived communities. Prepared -- compared to other

:39:57.:40:00.

communities. And one of the councils I represent, the shortfall in

:40:01.:40:07.

funding is ?20 million. ?2 million can be raised by increasing council

:40:08.:40:12.

tax by 2%. Isn't it true that allowing an ask her rise in council

:40:13.:40:16.

tax devolves the blame without fixing the probable? The local

:40:17.:40:26.

government settlement that will come very shortly, we will announce

:40:27.:40:30.

changes to local government finances to rebound support including those

:40:31.:40:34.

authorities with adult social care responsibilities. By taking into

:40:35.:40:38.

account the main resources available to councils including counsel back

:40:39.:40:46.

tax and business rates. We are speaking with Southeast balance a

:40:47.:40:53.

look at proposals, it is welcome that so many parts of Scotland

:40:54.:40:57.

aren't keen to be part of the process of delivering city deals.

:40:58.:41:03.

They will agree in such a way that will drive economic growth. Despite

:41:04.:41:14.

the obvious wealth,... 21% of children and a proposed for the

:41:15.:41:20.

region are living in poverty. The economy is not being held by

:41:21.:41:26.

government positions. Can be minister tell us what he thinks is

:41:27.:41:34.

going to help? The time and never makes an important point about the

:41:35.:41:37.

diverse nature of the area of which he talked. We want to ensure that we

:41:38.:41:46.

can deliver the growth so that it can realise its potential. We will

:41:47.:41:49.

continue to have talks, which I think have been productive and

:41:50.:41:54.

constructive. We will continue to work constructively to the liver

:41:55.:41:57.

that city deal if it can be delivered in the right way. These

:41:58.:42:01.

things must be decided properly. That is the process that is under

:42:02.:42:10.

way. The housing and planning bill does contain measures to tackle and

:42:11.:42:15.

go further with landlords than any before. We want to roll out

:42:16.:42:19.

landlords who rent out substandard accommodation and do all we can to

:42:20.:42:22.

make sure that tenants have a good and safe environment. A tougher

:42:23.:42:39.

fitter proper person test. ... Over the past five years, despite

:42:40.:42:42.

privately raised in homes, rents have sorted, and are a fit higher

:42:43.:42:49.

than they were in 2010. Why have is the government not taken any steps

:42:50.:42:54.

with the soaring rents? And she looks at the rents over the last

:42:55.:43:03.

five years, it has been a lower. We are going a lot further than ever

:43:04.:43:09.

before in terms of cracking down on landlords. We all want to see cross

:43:10.:43:16.

party put out of business. An important part is making sure that

:43:17.:43:20.

landlord understand their obligations and that tenants

:43:21.:43:24.

understand what is available. What is the action they are taking to

:43:25.:43:30.

understand that they understand their responsibilities? He makes a

:43:31.:43:39.

good point. Apart from what we aren't doing to publicise, we have

:43:40.:43:44.

published a guide for tennis to look at so that they can understand the

:43:45.:43:50.

rights they have. We should be clear, and tenant should be happy

:43:51.:44:00.

with it? . Order! Thank you Mr Speaker. Before Christmas, I wish

:44:01.:44:08.

everybody a happy Christmas. Since the last questions, the spending

:44:09.:44:12.

review has announced the biggest affordable housing programmes in the

:44:13.:44:16.

1970s. Delivering them many affordable homes, we have agreed

:44:17.:44:25.

devolution deals with Liverpool and the West Midlands and completed the

:44:26.:44:28.

committee states of the housing and planning bill. We will continue to

:44:29.:44:34.

develop new devolution deals with communities in order to give off

:44:35.:44:39.

more power and resources across the country. As my right honourable

:44:40.:44:43.

friend might know, I am running a campaign to save the hedgehog. Can I

:44:44.:44:49.

ask my right honourable friend, and he will ask his department, to

:44:50.:44:53.

provide guidance to local authorities on how to make the

:44:54.:44:58.

gardens and the new feels more hedgehog friendly and ensure that we

:44:59.:45:02.

can actually have a hedgehog superhighway. What I would say, I

:45:03.:45:11.

know this is a prickly issue for him, let me get straight to point. I

:45:12.:45:17.

want the issuing guidance on the protection of hedgehogs, but I will

:45:18.:45:22.

draw members attention to the excellent publications of the

:45:23.:45:26.

British hedgehog preservation Society, and their guide to looking

:45:27.:45:32.

hedgehog. I would recommend for any Honorable members who want to curl

:45:33.:45:40.

up this Christmas and read it. The words hedgehog, superhighway did not

:45:41.:45:44.

trip off the Secretary of State Tonka. Maybe he is preserving them

:45:45.:45:53.

for another occasion. Why is it that those councils who have the highest

:45:54.:45:56.

number of vulnerable children are the same councils that have seen the

:45:57.:46:01.

highest level of budget cuts under his government? I would say to the

:46:02.:46:09.

Honorable Lady, that if she looks at the figures, it is quite apparent,

:46:10.:46:15.

that the local authorities with the highest spending power are the local

:46:16.:46:22.

authorities that she refers to. Councils will see a rise in their

:46:23.:46:26.

resource in cash terms over these parliament from 40 billion to 40.5

:46:27.:46:34.

billion. The Honorable Lady will see the outcome of the local government

:46:35.:46:43.

finance settlement. Will do all join me in welcoming the plan of for the

:46:44.:46:53.

tearing down of a building. It's being replaced by hundreds of new

:46:54.:46:57.

homes of many different types including some 260 badly needed

:46:58.:47:04.

assisted living apartments. He has given a great example of a local

:47:05.:47:08.

authority making good use of Brownfield land to provide housing

:47:09.:47:17.

that their constituency needs. And a hasty attempt to reverse the office

:47:18.:47:22.

of housing statistics, ministers were reported that there was a cell

:47:23.:47:32.

of... Two private investors. Housing Association has made sure that they

:47:33.:47:39.

will oppose such a move. It is an unhelpful distraction. Can a

:47:40.:47:46.

minister and store the house that a...

:47:47.:47:57.

Lasher, councils local development plan was adopted with new green belt

:47:58.:48:05.

boundaries, will they and sure confidence and the plan to make sure

:48:06.:48:10.

that the policy for his determination, or any application to

:48:11.:48:13.

the point from the plant by giving itself planning permission to build

:48:14.:48:17.

on the green belt that was so recently confirmed? I think my

:48:18.:48:24.

Honorable friend outlines an important part. He is right, that a

:48:25.:48:28.

local authorities who has its plan in place, I am sure that this is

:48:29.:48:32.

local authority were to take an opportunity to go outside a local

:48:33.:48:37.

plant he would be the first to request myself or the Secretary of

:48:38.:48:44.

State to consider that application. Some authorities have had to close

:48:45.:48:48.

the local where affairs assistance schemes altogether. Food banks are

:48:49.:48:55.

in need of. Will does government preside over 5 million people, will

:48:56.:48:59.

the Secretary of State commit to protect future funding and reinstate

:49:00.:49:07.

the law? It is important to local authorities take their

:49:08.:49:09.

responsibilities seriously, when we have the local government finance

:49:10.:49:15.

settlement, I'm sure there will be happy to see and recognise. The

:49:16.:49:19.

people of Lincoln shared know what is best for the people of

:49:20.:49:24.

Lincolnshire. Can my honourable friend outlined the deal. And tell

:49:25.:49:32.

us how the bid is going. My honourable friend is well-placed to

:49:33.:49:36.

represent the views of people of link share. He does it effectively.

:49:37.:49:43.

Areas are different and local people know best what they need to drive

:49:44.:49:49.

economic improvement and improve the lives that they represent.

:49:50.:49:54.

Discussions are going well. They include discussions on skills,

:49:55.:49:57.

transport, housing, and water management. What discussions has the

:49:58.:50:08.

Secretary of State has with the business sector for still

:50:09.:50:12.

communities and how they can use imaginative and creative approaches

:50:13.:50:14.

to support the steel industry through this difficult time? I have

:50:15.:50:21.

had discussions with the business secretary and his colleagues. It is

:50:22.:50:26.

important that we and power of those communities to act in support of the

:50:27.:50:33.

businesses and the employees, through the extension of the

:50:34.:50:38.

enterprise, he will see that practical support has been given to

:50:39.:50:42.

make sure that the prosperity of those regions continues to grow

:50:43.:50:50.

despite these challenges. I am delighted to see the extra supply of

:50:51.:50:54.

affordable housing, as a result of the housing and planning bill. A key

:50:55.:51:00.

to that is supplied. Will he agree with me that the London land

:51:01.:51:05.

commission is keen to do this. And we keep under review all the plans

:51:06.:51:08.

that they need to make sure of the land comes in. Like? I am honoured

:51:09.:51:15.

to be joint chair of the London land commission, I can give them

:51:16.:51:17.

assurance that we will make sure that the land does come forward and

:51:18.:51:22.

plays an important part to deliver housing to London. When we get to

:51:23.:51:27.

the 12 month point from where it started, we will do a review to make

:51:28.:51:31.

sure it has the power it needs to deliver. On Saturday, I was out with

:51:32.:51:39.

Caroline Pridgen who is a London Mayor candidate. Kill me makes so

:51:40.:51:48.

that PCS cells continue to play the role that they play in keeping our

:51:49.:52:02.

streets safe. I'm glad he remembers the name of his candidate, I think

:52:03.:52:05.

it is spent most of us in that's how. I'm very happy to confirm the

:52:06.:52:12.

importance of all of our police, and keeping our streets safe. Simon

:52:13.:52:19.

Stevens has described social care funding as unresolved business. With

:52:20.:52:24.

the Secretary of State agree with him that it is time to have a

:52:25.:52:28.

rethink on how we fund the social care in the future? She has a deep

:52:29.:52:34.

and long-standing interest in this and she should know that the funding

:52:35.:52:39.

adult social care is something that should be done jointly between local

:52:40.:52:42.

councils and the NHS. The health secretary and I are working closely

:52:43.:52:47.

to make sure that the funds at the Chancellor has made available is put

:52:48.:52:51.

to good use so that our elderly people are properly cared for rather

:52:52.:52:54.

they are in charge of councils or in our hospital. Does the government

:52:55.:53:01.

have any plans for initiatives other than that business, to help people

:53:02.:53:12.

in small suburban shopping centres especially in my constituency? I

:53:13.:53:16.

think the Honorable Clement for that question, this government is doing a

:53:17.:53:20.

number of things to help the type of traitors, that the Honorable Tillman

:53:21.:53:24.

refers to, we have a principled planning changes to allow them to

:53:25.:53:33.

respond more flexibly. We are tackling overzealous parking

:53:34.:53:36.

practices, and I am working closely with retail worker migrations of the

:53:37.:53:40.

future of the form to develop strategies that will enable our high

:53:41.:53:45.

streets and communities to beat the future needs of the consumer. I

:53:46.:53:51.

would like to commend Staffordshire fire and rescue service for there

:53:52.:53:57.

will work in fire prevention which has conjured to falling call-outs.

:53:58.:54:02.

Does he agree with me that further integration between police, fire and

:54:03.:54:06.

other services with help to more effectively identify vulnerable

:54:07.:54:12.

people which would lead to better outcomes for the public and

:54:13.:54:16.

efficiency savings? I agree, closer collaboration between our blue light

:54:17.:54:23.

services offers better services to make efficiencies. I would encourage

:54:24.:54:29.

to the consultation that we have for her and her colleagues to make their

:54:30.:54:32.

representation so that we can do that without the current barriers.

:54:33.:54:39.

On the last consideration of the housing bill, the Conservatives

:54:40.:54:44.

passed an amendment to bring to an end, secure tendencies and social

:54:45.:54:48.

housing, that was done without consultation or any impact

:54:49.:54:51.

assessment. Can the Secretary of State tell me where he won councils

:54:52.:54:56.

senates that this was in a conservative manifesto? Actually, I

:54:57.:55:00.

would say, that that was outlined in the summer budget, they are not

:55:01.:55:06.

affected by this. The provisions of the housing and planning bill made

:55:07.:55:09.

on the 7th of December, prevent councils from offering new tenants

:55:10.:55:16.

lifetime tenants in the future. Some areas such as the Isle of Wight will

:55:17.:55:22.

have a much more difficult task, to increase their income by increasing

:55:23.:55:25.

the business rate base. Blow my honourable friend meet the Isle of

:55:26.:55:29.

Wight Council to discuss this matter? Delighted to meet the Isle

:55:30.:55:38.

of Wight to speak. And taking 100% of business rates to local

:55:39.:55:43.

government, it is important that we agree that places who don't have

:55:44.:55:46.

good business rates are not going to lose out? Many of my concerns were

:55:47.:55:54.

dismayed when I went back, after hearing last week that my honourable

:55:55.:55:58.

friend suggested that you are going to limit competencies, what are you

:55:59.:56:02.

going to say to those members of Mike is interesting that are

:56:03.:56:05.

dismayed that this government has pulled this on them and what they

:56:06.:56:09.

considered to be their rights as citizens? I would refer to her to

:56:10.:56:16.

counter that with gave a few minutes ago. They are not affected by this.

:56:17.:56:20.

It is about new tenants. It is the right thing to do. With the previous

:56:21.:56:29.

member who was our cabinet secretary, I'm sure many taxpayers

:56:30.:56:31.

would wonder if that is a good expenditure. South Gloucestershire,

:56:32.:56:40.

work very well as a functional unit does my my honourable friend...

:56:41.:56:50.

Should be regarded as a betrayal. I can assure my right honourable

:56:51.:56:56.

friend I have no intention of free introducing the front door back door

:56:57.:57:09.

or. After a replacement for Right to Buy was funded, the UK government

:57:10.:57:14.

what would the consequences for Scotland beat? As I said earlier,

:57:15.:57:21.

despite his government is saying a increase in its capital budget as a

:57:22.:57:25.

result of a announcement at the spending review. Individual policies

:57:26.:57:32.

are rotten through and delivered, the British Government will meet its

:57:33.:57:36.

obligations, in that regard. And will continue to do so.

:57:37.:57:44.

Urgent questions. I wish to ask the Minister responded to make a

:57:45.:57:57.

statement on the sports PLC and its compliance with the national minimum

:57:58.:58:04.

wage legislation. Thank you very much, I assure the right honourable

:58:05.:58:07.

departments concerned that working people are paid the full amount that

:58:08.:58:11.

the law requires for every hour that they work. And welcomed his urgent

:58:12.:58:16.

questions. We take the minimum low-wage laws very seriously which

:58:17.:58:20.

is why we have increased the budget from a to .1 million to 13 million

:58:21.:58:28.

and 2015. What I am not able to comment on the individual players, I

:58:29.:58:33.

can reassure the house that her majesties revenue and customs

:58:34.:58:37.

followed up with the put in place that they receive. I would encourage

:58:38.:58:43.

any employee or worker was concerned that these laws are not being

:58:44.:58:50.

complied with to contact either the people to the hotline. They also

:58:51.:58:55.

undertake targeted enforcement activity in the most high-risk

:58:56.:59:00.

sectors of the economy. As the Prime Minister announced in September, the

:59:01.:59:03.

government is taking steps to crack down on employers that are not

:59:04.:59:10.

paying workers minimum wage. We have increased the... And from April

:59:11.:59:20.

2016, the government will double the penalty you to 200% of the employers

:59:21.:59:26.

comply with the law. Furthermore, a new team of compliance officers will

:59:27.:59:30.

be established to investigate the most serious cases of employers

:59:31.:59:33.

applying the relevant minimum wage. The team will have the power to use

:59:34.:59:41.

all available sanctions including criminal investigation. The one name

:59:42.:59:44.

employers who did not pay their workers what they are entitled to.

:59:45.:59:49.

At the government, our message to employers is straightforward. We

:59:50.:59:54.

will work to cut regulation and taxes. We expect employers to pay

:59:55.:00:00.

working people a legal minimum. The national wage and the national

:00:01.:00:06.

living wage for workers aged 25 and over. I will ensure the house that

:00:07.:00:11.

we will not hesitate to crack down hard on both employers large and

:00:12.:00:16.

small who break the contract by failing to pay the wage.

:00:17.:00:23.

I think the Minister for his apply and I am proud that the last Labour

:00:24.:00:27.

government in the face of the opposition opposite, introduced the

:00:28.:00:31.

national minimum wage in the first place when people in our country

:00:32.:00:35.

were earning as little as ?1 an hour. I am also proud that the

:00:36.:00:40.

overwhelming majority of reduce businesses, notwithstanding any

:00:41.:00:44.

legal acquirement, seek to treat their workers with dignity and

:00:45.:00:51.

respect. We know enough about the practices at sports direct PLC,

:00:52.:00:54.

which has a branch in mind constituency, to conclude that, Nick

:00:55.:00:59.

is a bad advert for British business -- this company is a bad advert for

:01:00.:01:04.

British business and one of culture of fear in the workplace which we

:01:05.:01:06.

would not want to see repeated elsewhere. As the Institute of

:01:07.:01:10.

directors has said it is a star of British business. I appreciate what

:01:11.:01:15.

the Mr said about not being able to response in specific instances, but

:01:16.:01:20.

can I ask... HMRC enforces national minimum wage and a complaint has

:01:21.:01:24.

been made by the union of which I am a member against sports direct,

:01:25.:01:37.

accusing them of being in... Of course it cannot be confirmed but

:01:38.:01:42.

many of them are refusing to come forward for fear of repercussions

:01:43.:01:46.

that will follow. Why can HMRC not go-ahead and carry out an

:01:47.:01:50.

investigation in this case? It surely will render other evidence

:01:51.:01:52.

without workers being required to put their necks on the line.

:01:53.:02:00.

Secondly, can ask a generic listing? And issue has come up here where

:02:01.:02:03.

employees are required to go through body searches to check for potential

:02:04.:02:08.

theft. That is not time which they spent going through what he

:02:09.:02:14.

searches, for which they are paid. The law is unclear in this area. Can

:02:15.:02:17.

you give industry and indication whether antigovernment's view time

:02:18.:02:21.

spent going through the body searches would count as working time

:02:22.:02:25.

for the purposes of this legislation? Secondly, we have a

:02:26.:02:33.

situation where employees face having 15 minutes of working time

:02:34.:02:37.

redacted if they clock in just one minute late. -- deductive. In that

:02:38.:02:44.

situation the law is not entirely clear again. Does the government not

:02:45.:02:48.

believe that if an employer was to engage in those kinds of practices

:02:49.:02:51.

it would not be at least in keeping with the spirit of the legislation?

:02:52.:02:59.

Can I also just finally ask: Of course the enforcement of national

:03:00.:03:04.

minimum wage legislation is not carried out by his department, it is

:03:05.:03:08.

carried out by HMRC. How can we expect HMRC to do the work we

:03:09.:03:11.

require them if the government is pushing through this 18% real terms

:03:12.:03:17.

cut in HMRC's funding over the course of the spending review

:03:18.:03:22.

period? Finally come a Mr Speaker, I think no doubt the reaction of the

:03:23.:03:25.

employee concerned in this case will be to say we comply with the law.

:03:26.:03:28.

But surely what they need to understand is actually the British

:03:29.:03:32.

public expect a lot more from them. We often don't do things that we are

:03:33.:03:37.

allowed to do by the law because we don't think that is the right way in

:03:38.:03:40.

treating our fellow citizens. Surely that should apply to the company in

:03:41.:03:45.

this place. Hear, hear! Mr Speaker, the right honourable

:03:46.:03:49.

gentleman asked a series of very important and good questions. The

:03:50.:03:52.

first point I'd like to make is if any employee of any company has any

:03:53.:03:57.

fear of repercussions I can reassure them that the hotline is genuinely

:03:58.:04:01.

confidential and I'm sure he would the willing to endorse the fact that

:04:02.:04:06.

it is an absolutely resolutely independent organisation. So there

:04:07.:04:09.

is no fear that they should have from calling out of hours to that

:04:10.:04:16.

hotline and reporting a practice. I did say in my brief response that

:04:17.:04:22.

HMRC enforcement is entitled to conduct targeted enforcement

:04:23.:04:28.

activity in sectors of concern. So it is entirely open to HMRC to

:04:29.:04:33.

actively proactively, investigate in sectors where they feel that

:04:34.:04:39.

breaches may be an evidence. So in that sense, they don't necessarily

:04:40.:04:42.

need to wait for a specific complaint to be able to investigate

:04:43.:04:47.

breaches. He asked about this question and I did read the article

:04:48.:04:52.

that revealed some of the allegations being made about sports

:04:53.:04:56.

direct. He mentioned the question of the search and the time that that

:04:57.:05:00.

takes and whether it is working time are not. He will know that this is

:05:01.:05:03.

an intensely vexed legal questions. As a former employment law

:05:04.:05:08.

practitioner, he will know how much time is this taking up of his former

:05:09.:05:13.

leagues. I cannot give an absolute pronouncement, but what I can say is

:05:14.:05:18.

that anything that counts as work, as part of somebody's employment

:05:19.:05:25.

contract, must be compensated at least at the level of minimum wages.

:05:26.:05:28.

So the question is whether that search counts as work as part of

:05:29.:05:34.

their employment contract. That is a position that can be explored

:05:35.:05:38.

legally. He mentioned the second thing that was made about employees

:05:39.:05:44.

being docked 15 minutes for being one minutes late. While it is

:05:45.:05:51.

legally permissible for time to be docked for late arrival, it is

:05:52.:05:54.

important that every honourable member understands that the minimum

:05:55.:05:58.

wage legislation will apply to the 14 minutes as well as the rest of

:05:59.:06:04.

time that people are working. So therefore, they cannot be not

:06:05.:06:09.

compensated for those 40 minutes if that would bring their overall wage

:06:10.:06:14.

rate down below the national minimum wage -- 14 minutes. I hope that goes

:06:15.:06:18.

to reassure him. He makes a point about the cut in funding for HMRC,

:06:19.:06:23.

up 18% over the spending review period. I will have to take his word

:06:24.:06:26.

because I don't have the global figures to hand, but I did point out

:06:27.:06:29.

to him the very significant and dedicated increase in funding for

:06:30.:06:33.

the enforcement team, the minimum wage enforcement team, which has

:06:34.:06:38.

gone up by more than 50% since 2010. And it is going up by 3 million

:06:39.:06:42.

pounds and this year alone. So I can reassure them whatever else is going

:06:43.:06:47.

on in HMRC, this is a priority which we are investing in and will be

:06:48.:06:51.

beefing up the activity of its. He is absolutely right to make the

:06:52.:06:55.

general point that obeying the law is the minimum that we expect. We

:06:56.:07:00.

expect employers to behave response to believe and to be good citizens

:07:01.:07:06.

and we would hope they would not be sabbaths. Mac satisfied just with

:07:07.:07:10.

obeying the law, but would want to go a great deal from it -- not be

:07:11.:07:16.

satisfied just with obeying the law. I know there is even greater than

:07:17.:07:21.

that of the others. I'm glad the Minister graciously welcomed the

:07:22.:07:25.

urgent question, but unfortunately the Treasury he wrote to me this

:07:26.:07:29.

morning to say the matter was not urgent and shouldn't be aired. I've

:07:30.:07:32.

included upon examination that it was and should. And we look forward

:07:33.:07:40.

very much I think to these changes. Mr Peter was standing, but the right

:07:41.:07:43.

honourable gentleman has thought better of it. Thank you Mr Speaker.

:07:44.:07:51.

My constituents have approached me on several occasions with concerns

:07:52.:07:57.

about sports direct since the election. It appears that they

:07:58.:08:02.

sometimes can have a somewhat aggressive use and attitude towards

:08:03.:08:09.

flexible working, which is something that can suit some but doesn't

:08:10.:08:11.

always suit other people. I wondered if my right honourable friend has

:08:12.:08:16.

considered some thought to a general anti-avoidance rule when it comes to

:08:17.:08:23.

these employment laws. Such as, we are considering and the tax sphere.

:08:24.:08:31.

Mr Speaker, you know it would be a career limiting move for me to the

:08:32.:08:34.

part in any way from the script laid down to my colleagues at the

:08:35.:08:36.

Treasury. An hour plead that I welcome the

:08:37.:08:41.

question and was glad to have an opportunity to answer it. Cannot

:08:42.:08:44.

think my honourable friend for his suggestion. I am not going to

:08:45.:08:48.

pretend that we have given thought to that. But he is not treated such

:08:49.:08:51.

thoughts and I will be happy to have a discussion with him about how it

:08:52.:08:56.

might work. We will come to Mr Skinner, who is because to join, but

:08:57.:09:03.

for now... Thank you Mr Speaker. These allegations against sports

:09:04.:09:07.

direct are concerning and we Aco because for eight Union for a HMRC

:09:08.:09:17.

investigation. We stand in unity because these can do nothing to

:09:18.:09:20.

engage employees and make them feel positive about the place in which

:09:21.:09:25.

they work. Allegations of such a serious nature must be taken very

:09:26.:09:28.

seriously by the UK government. And the government must do much more to

:09:29.:09:33.

support the living wage employers. The Scottish Government has

:09:34.:09:37.

encouraged over 400 living wage employers in Scotland. We have the

:09:38.:09:39.

second-highest proportion of employees played the living wage --

:09:40.:09:46.

paid the living wage. We on these benches want to know the government

:09:47.:09:50.

will commit wholeheartedly to support of HMRC investigation into

:09:51.:09:54.

the business practices. Can I ask the Secretary of State what lessons

:09:55.:09:57.

are going to be learned from this case? Especially when the UK

:09:58.:10:00.

government is gearing up to implement the new minimum wage

:10:01.:10:03.

premium which is not a living wage. If it can't enforce the current

:10:04.:10:07.

minimum wage -- living wage, how will it enforce increases? I welcome

:10:08.:10:14.

the contribution from the honourable lady representing the Scottish

:10:15.:10:18.

national party. Of course it is absolutely the job of the

:10:19.:10:22.

enforcement team in HMRC to follow up any concerns that they have, both

:10:23.:10:25.

in relation to specific complaint and about particular sectors where

:10:26.:10:31.

they feel that abusive minimum wage legislation. And indeed other

:10:32.:10:36.

employment legislation is rife. She will ensure that I cannot comment on

:10:37.:10:40.

a particular case, but if I may add would like to add that in general I

:10:41.:10:45.

suspect, and I don't often welcome an investigation by the Guardian

:10:46.:10:48.

newspaper, but in this case I think it is vitally important that media

:10:49.:10:54.

organizations do investigate these things because government is never

:10:55.:10:56.

going to be able to proactively investigate every single employer in

:10:57.:11:01.

the country. If they can uncover things then I can promise you that

:11:02.:11:07.

the government will be sure to review their findings and enforce

:11:08.:11:12.

the laws were necessary. Thank you Mr Speaker. Can I echo the comment

:11:13.:11:17.

to the Minister regarding the hotline. I have called the hotline

:11:18.:11:21.

with one of my constituents who came to my surgery who have been under

:11:22.:11:28.

the minimum wage, -- have been paid under the minimum wage and I find it

:11:29.:11:31.

extremely professional. Cannot question the Minister about upcoming

:11:32.:11:37.

change to the minimum wage with introduction to the living wage copy

:11:38.:11:42.

I read this survey of a thousand employees, strongly welcome the

:11:43.:11:49.

living wage and said it would boost in morale and productivity of their

:11:50.:11:52.

employees copy four out of ten said they had not communicated with their

:11:53.:11:57.

staff regarding upcoming attention arises in pay. I think eight out of

:11:58.:12:04.

ten still haven't updated their payroll and created new procedures

:12:05.:12:08.

to implement it. Could the Minister comment on that so legitimate

:12:09.:12:11.

businesses are ready and don't get into similar situations? The

:12:12.:12:17.

honourable gentleman conducted a adjournment debate on the subject. I

:12:18.:12:20.

didn't realise he had just done so. Is to speak of copy may

:12:21.:12:27.

may I thank the honourable member and that said or how good the

:12:28.:12:34.

hotline is a. There is a substantial government communication campaign

:12:35.:12:36.

that is going to be starting in the new year. We have felt it is in the

:12:37.:12:43.

months leading up that medication will be most effective in making

:12:44.:12:47.

sure employees and employers know that it is coming in and know what

:12:48.:12:51.

is required and begin to work out how to do this in their systems. The

:12:52.:12:59.

sports direct an occurs even though the national minimum wage has become

:13:00.:13:01.

a kind of national treasure. Everyone supports it now. But like

:13:02.:13:06.

all great social reforms it had to be fought for all-night opposition

:13:07.:13:12.

in this house. Before reform and become part of the political

:13:13.:13:17.

consensus have to be for four and the battle to sustain and minimum

:13:18.:13:21.

wage must be a continuous one and one that requires more than just

:13:22.:13:25.

warm words for ministers. The TUC estimate, at least 250,000 workers,

:13:26.:13:31.

are not being paid the minimum wage. What is the Minister's estimate? Or

:13:32.:13:36.

has the government even made one? Last Parliament it was revealed that

:13:37.:13:40.

just nine firms have been charged for noncompliance with the minimum

:13:41.:13:43.

wage. Cannae update the House on how many legal proceedings are currently

:13:44.:13:49.

under way against firms for noncompliance -- can he update?

:13:50.:13:51.

Denney tell us how many workers have received the money that they are

:13:52.:13:55.

will hold after a notice of under payment has been issued by HMRC,

:13:56.:13:59.

because up until now the government has failed to provide that data.

:14:00.:14:03.

Will now order an urgent investigation to sports direct,

:14:04.:14:06.

concerning the alleged abuses which have led the directors to label it a

:14:07.:14:10.

scar on British business? He says he is acting, but where are the

:14:11.:14:13.

results? How will he get results with the close of so many HMRC

:14:14.:14:19.

offices? Mr Speaker, is easy to talk the talk am OK, but it means nothing

:14:20.:14:27.

to millions of low-paid workers whose labour employees feel they can

:14:28.:14:29.

turn on and off like a tap unless ministers walked the walk on the

:14:30.:14:33.

minimum wage. When will we see some real action to enforce this? Hear,

:14:34.:14:38.

hear! I am happy to acknowledge that the

:14:39.:14:41.

national minimum wage was one of the great achievements of the government

:14:42.:14:47.

led by Tony Blair. I note that there are more supportive of that

:14:48.:14:49.

government's achievement on this side of the House as there are on

:14:50.:14:58.

his. I also look forward to receiving the same acknowledgment

:14:59.:15:03.

from members opposite when, in next April, we introduced the national

:15:04.:15:08.

living wage which is significantly higher than any increase in the

:15:09.:15:11.

national minimum wage that he and his colleagues proposed during the

:15:12.:15:16.

last election campaign. He asked very good and proper questions about

:15:17.:15:20.

enforcement. He glided over the fact that the budget for enforcement has

:15:21.:15:25.

gone up by more than the 2% since his party was in government has more

:15:26.:15:32.

than 50%. We have increased the level of penalties. We have

:15:33.:15:35.

increased the powers and we have stepped up the programme of naming

:15:36.:15:38.

and shaming companies, large and small. We have in 2014-15, 705

:15:39.:15:45.

employers receive penalties totalling over 934 thousand -- 900

:15:46.:15:53.

?34,000. We have set up a team to focus on tackling the most serious

:15:54.:15:56.

breaches and consider whether directors of employers who breach

:15:57.:15:59.

persistently in the legislation should be disqualified. In 2014-15,

:16:00.:16:10.

we identified with 12 9 million of which 26,018 workers we conducted

:16:11.:16:14.

735 successful investigations and charged 705 penalties,

:16:15.:16:26.

worth ?934,000 in total. If he wants to suggest any further activity we

:16:27.:16:31.

can take I am happy to hear it, but fortunately we are doing a lot more

:16:32.:16:37.

for the government he was part of to defend one of the only achievements

:16:38.:16:40.

they are still willing to talk about -- then the government he was a part

:16:41.:16:42.

of. Hear, hear! IQ. There are reports that some

:16:43.:16:50.

large retail businesses have already increased their hourly salary for

:16:51.:16:52.

employers above the minimum wage. Could the Minister that housing is

:16:53.:16:57.

in the standing of this? I have heard such reports that the Volokh

:16:58.:17:02.

and not all the talk -- off the top of my tongue, speak that it is

:17:03.:17:08.

extremely welcome news. Is the point made by an honourable gentleman

:17:09.:17:11.

opposite that we expect more than just the obedience and faith of the

:17:12.:17:16.

law. We ask that social response ability and employers to see the

:17:17.:17:19.

benefits to them in terms of improved morale and retention that

:17:20.:17:24.

come from paying people better wages. I don't think the Minister

:17:25.:17:29.

should expect any social responsibility from the man that

:17:30.:17:33.

controls sports direct. In my constituency. At the warehouse,

:17:34.:17:40.

Abshire broke him a -- at sire broke. That man has not made ?6

:17:41.:17:46.

million because he is a considerate employer. He is a monster of a man.

:17:47.:17:51.

That does not even reply to him these letters. I have sent him many.

:17:52.:18:04.

-- MPs latest copy he has got ?6 billion because he is the type of

:18:05.:18:08.

man who will not take notice of HMRC unless this government really means

:18:09.:18:14.

business. This man might actually, would think very masterfully on

:18:15.:18:17.

millionaires roll along with his house. -- pals. This will be a test

:18:18.:18:28.

of the Minister's metal. Get working. Mr Speaker, I never had the

:18:29.:18:35.

pleasure of being encouraged that by the honourable gentleman before, but

:18:36.:18:38.

I promise to follow up on it. I want to be clear. I don't care how famous

:18:39.:18:42.

an employer is. I don't care how well connected they are. I don't

:18:43.:18:47.

care, friendly, how much money they have made. They need to obey the law

:18:48.:18:52.

and if they do not then we will enforce the law. We will find them

:18:53.:18:55.

and disqualified directors if necessary. Hear, hear!

:18:56.:19:02.

Thank you Mr Speaker. As well as strong enforcement for the

:19:03.:19:05.

government is should be possible for those who are employed by bad

:19:06.:19:10.

businesses to vote with their feet and moved to better employers. So

:19:11.:19:14.

what is being done to help create more and better jobs for those

:19:15.:19:21.

employed by sports direct? And communicate the availability of

:19:22.:19:27.

those jobs to them. I thank my honourable friend for bringing us

:19:28.:19:30.

back to the important constant theme of this government which is an

:19:31.:19:35.

economy that is creating new jobs at an unprecedented rate. Most of those

:19:36.:19:40.

jobs now are full-time. And most of them are paying more, not just the

:19:41.:19:43.

minimum wage, but then the national living wage which will be coming in

:19:44.:19:47.

in April. Ultimately it is through a dynamic economy that will create

:19:48.:19:50.

opportunity for anyone who does not feel that they are getting a square

:19:51.:19:53.

deal from their current employer. Thank you Mr Speaker. When sports

:19:54.:19:58.

direct announced they would be building their factory at sire

:19:59.:20:02.

broke, able in North Derbyshire have been delighted. It employs nearly

:20:03.:20:09.

3000 people, it is said that it should have a terrible reputation.

:20:10.:20:13.

What would he take to communicate with that company and trying to

:20:14.:20:15.

enter in the future the success of the organisation does not come at

:20:16.:20:18.

the expense of the constituents of my honourable friend? Mr Speaker, I

:20:19.:20:25.

am delighted that the honourable gentleman has pointed out how

:20:26.:20:28.

important they are as an employer in his constituency. It is important

:20:29.:20:31.

that we acknowledge that sports direct employs a great many people.

:20:32.:20:35.

I am sure a great many people are very happy to work there. I

:20:36.:20:42.

reinforced the point that no company director and no company owner is

:20:43.:20:44.

going to want the House of Commons to be discussing any times that we

:20:45.:20:49.

are discussing, the kind of priest was alleged in this newspaper

:20:50.:20:54.

article. -- the kind of breach. I am certain that when faced with the

:20:55.:20:57.

kind of enforcement action that I have set out that any employer,

:20:58.:21:01.

including those in his own constituency, will want to sort

:21:02.:21:05.

themselves out. Mr Speaker, would message of business tier does my

:21:06.:21:09.

honourable friend have for all those people who are self-employed and

:21:10.:21:15.

earning far less than the minimum wage? -- Christmas cheer. But are

:21:16.:21:17.

faced with having to submit a quarter of their returns to HMRC

:21:18.:21:25.

instead of annual ones? I am full of admiration for anyone who is

:21:26.:21:28.

self-employed. It brings many rewards, but money is not always one

:21:29.:21:33.

of them. And I am absolutely clear that the government must do

:21:34.:21:36.

everything it possibly can to reduce the burden of regulation on those

:21:37.:21:40.

who are self-employed. Does the Minister recognise what is so

:21:41.:21:44.

disturbing about the newspaper report? Is the fear amongst many

:21:45.:21:50.

working people there, in some instances apparently, women are not

:21:51.:21:56.

willing to stay away from work, even if their child is sick for the day,

:21:57.:22:01.

simply because they may lose their job. Is it not totally unacceptable

:22:02.:22:05.

to have such fear and exultation in a company like this? It reminds one,

:22:06.:22:13.

does it not, of the early years of the last century when workers were

:22:14.:22:17.

treated in such a contemptible way. Finally, why was the advice given to

:22:18.:22:22.

the Speaker if this was not an urgent question? If the Minister is

:22:23.:22:26.

so keen on coming to the House and welcoming the Guardian

:22:27.:22:31.

investigation, why did he try and stop the question being asked in the

:22:32.:22:33.

first place -- why didn't he? Hear, hear!

:22:34.:22:38.

It is for you always to judge whether a question is urgent, Mr

:22:39.:22:43.

Speaker. I knowledged that this question is important which is why

:22:44.:22:47.

am so delighted to answer it. On the broader point of the honourable

:22:48.:22:52.

member has made, Bob is government beliefs and deregulation, believes

:22:53.:22:57.

and reducing the burden, we have made clear that there are certain

:22:58.:23:00.

laws that are absolute -- while this government,. They must be adhered

:23:01.:23:05.

to. Minimum-wage legislation is one along with health and safety

:23:06.:23:08.

legislation and a whole slew of other protections and we want to

:23:09.:23:15.

protect those robustly. Thank you Mr Speaker. According to the ONS, a

:23:16.:23:21.

quarter of a million people are not paid the minimum wage. According to

:23:22.:23:25.

the Minister, HMRC have found that 6000 of them. What with the Minister

:23:26.:23:28.

do in order to bridge the gap? -- 26,000. Can I suggest that to not

:23:29.:23:35.

pay the minimum wage is a criminal offence. Why are they not been

:23:36.:23:40.

prosecutions taken out against these directors who are not paying the

:23:41.:23:43.

minimum wage and the department that is responsible for taking out

:23:44.:23:47.

prosecutions in the attorney generals office has been cut for the

:23:48.:23:50.

last three years. And there has not been a single prosecution during

:23:51.:23:55.

that time. Mr Speaker, the honourable Lady always comes to this

:23:56.:23:59.

house knowing the complete answer to every question. But it might help or

:24:00.:24:05.

sometimes issue would actually listen to the list of the measures

:24:06.:24:09.

that we have been introducing which both significantly further than any

:24:10.:24:12.

enforcement activity that the government of which she was a

:24:13.:24:16.

brought forward to defend their minimum wage. When that set of

:24:17.:24:24.

enforcement measures has worked as well as it is doing currently, I see

:24:25.:24:29.

no reason to take any instruction however helpfully phrased from the

:24:30.:24:33.

honourable Lady. This is an extremely important matter but we

:24:34.:24:35.

have other important business to follow, so amplifier brief questions

:24:36.:24:41.

and answers -- I am looking for. This is a disturbing case and the

:24:42.:24:44.

Guardian. With the Minister agree that one good piece of news is

:24:45.:24:47.

whatever else happens, in April of next year, sports direct will have

:24:48.:24:50.

to pay these people 11% more than they are getting now? Yes, and that

:24:51.:24:59.

has happened because the majority of the conservative government that has

:25:00.:25:03.

allowed the economy sufficiently well, that we can expect to do that

:25:04.:25:06.

and still prosper. Hear, hear! The Minister has pointed out that

:25:07.:25:13.

HMRC conducts risk space enforcement whether it's a higher risk of work

:25:14.:25:15.

is not getting the legal minimum wage. That the secretary and which

:25:16.:25:19.

voice direct operate already comes to a high risk sector? Isil, Jaime

:25:20.:25:28.

Bracht of initiatives have HMRC lost -- if so, how many initiatives have

:25:29.:25:34.

been launched? The sectors that are targeted for this type of approach

:25:35.:25:41.

are either low-paid, there are a large number of employers who are

:25:42.:25:43.

close to the boundary of minimum-wage, or those where there

:25:44.:25:46.

have been significant breaches in the past and therefore there is a

:25:47.:25:50.

good reason to expect there might be such breaches in the future. I can

:25:51.:25:54.

argue the specific answer to how many investigations, and I will be

:25:55.:26:01.

happy to write to him and place a copy in the library. On the 14th of

:26:02.:26:08.

October two -- on the 14th of October at, a minister up to me

:26:09.:26:12.

however he could not confirm which companies are under investigation or

:26:13.:26:17.

on the approach of investigations. What he said about being started

:26:18.:26:20.

with the owners and managers and directors of these companies, would

:26:21.:26:22.

he be started with my home care which were previously run by the new

:26:23.:26:26.

Tory Baroness, MacGregor Smith,? I don't think it is a job of the

:26:27.:26:39.

Minister of the crime to lay individual companies and cases that

:26:40.:26:42.

have not been found definitively to preach the law. I have been as clear

:26:43.:26:47.

as I possibly could be about any employer large or small who does so.

:26:48.:26:52.

I hope that he can apply that to any particular case. Everyone knows in

:26:53.:27:00.

our area are you cannot get a job anywhere else in the sports direct

:27:01.:27:04.

if you are an English native speaker despite a 3000 people working there.

:27:05.:27:10.

When a baby is born, in the toilet there. Why is it that there were 80

:27:11.:27:17.

and a pleasant visit over two years to sports direct, and is the

:27:18.:27:21.

possibly the case that employees are too scared and are not allowed time

:27:22.:27:27.

off to go to the Doctor? And therefore, there is a myth dioxin of

:27:28.:27:34.

NHS resources. Made also be the proper possibility that housing

:27:35.:27:39.

nearby, people are too scared to speak that they are provided with

:27:40.:27:43.

the house to live in, and the rent to it and the transport they have to

:27:44.:27:49.

play to get to work, there needs to be an investigation. -- pay. Not

:27:50.:27:54.

just for sports direct but the agencies underneath them who they

:27:55.:28:01.

employ. If the ombudsman or any Honorable member has any allegations

:28:02.:28:05.

and evidence of bad practice and relation to when the ways of the

:28:06.:28:08.

placed or any other legislation, that they would like to bring to my

:28:09.:28:11.

attention, I would welcome a. I would like to add this, the right

:28:12.:28:17.

honourable gentleman, mentioned that a trade union had been involved and

:28:18.:28:22.

bring to his attention, concerns of this particular employer. If Xavier,

:28:23.:28:26.

and despite what we said about the hotline being confidential, if they

:28:27.:28:32.

fear that those employees that they don't trust those governments one

:28:33.:28:36.

lines, if they would like to submit their evidence to the Union, on the

:28:37.:28:42.

other hand, I am sure all honourable members will understand that they

:28:43.:28:47.

need to be willing to engage with officers to evidence. Government has

:28:48.:28:51.

to act on a basis of evidence, however well researched to the

:28:52.:28:58.

garden article, that is not enough. Isn't it time that the government

:28:59.:29:03.

looked at introducing a criminal offence for exploitation, which they

:29:04.:29:06.

have refused to do in the modern slavery bill in the last Parliament?

:29:07.:29:12.

I think we have enough criminal event moves, -- offences. That is

:29:13.:29:21.

the increase in the budget by 50%, the new powers we are giving, that

:29:22.:29:28.

is what it will achieve. My understanding is that the trade

:29:29.:29:31.

unions have made representations on behalf of staff, who fork very good

:29:32.:29:40.

reason what to remain anonymous. Should the HMRC continue to ignore

:29:41.:29:43.

representations on behalf of legitimate trade unions, or should

:29:44.:29:47.

they just act now and searched the offices of sports direct with blue I

:29:48.:29:52.

think I had been clear, if there are any individual complaint that will

:29:53.:29:57.

need to be assessed for validity, it does not need to be possible for

:29:58.:30:01.

HMRC to follow it up. I have also been clear that HMRC has undertaken

:30:02.:30:06.

targeted enforcement activity, which does not wait for a complaint in the

:30:07.:30:12.

sectors of concern. They will be listening to this debate. The

:30:13.:30:16.

Minister said that ultimately, it is a growing dynamic up economy that

:30:17.:30:21.

should give people confidence to find good job. Good employment

:30:22.:30:24.

practice and legislation always gives people confidence copy a

:30:25.:30:30.

number of resident Mike of the strength, use tips and service

:30:31.:30:38.

charges to pop up wages. Kilometre of the Minister would be with me and

:30:39.:30:42.

some of the campaign is from the GMB union to look further into these

:30:43.:30:50.

practices. And a looking at how these wages will be beneficial to my

:30:51.:30:58.

local community. And my experience, the Honorable Lady is on two things

:30:59.:31:02.

before the rest of us. I would be delighted to meet with her. What a

:31:03.:31:08.

good fellow he is. We are grateful to him. I thank him for engaging

:31:09.:31:13.

with those questions so comprehensively. We come in out of

:31:14.:31:18.

the statement by the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change.

:31:19.:31:27.

It gives me great pleasure to report to the house on the United Nations

:31:28.:31:31.

conference of parties in Paris last week. There has been delivered a

:31:32.:31:36.

historic new global climate change agreements that takes a significant

:31:37.:31:41.

step forward towards reducing on a global scale the image that cause

:31:42.:31:46.

climate change. For the first time, nearly 200 countries have made a

:31:47.:31:50.

commitment to act together and to be held accountable. In a doing so,

:31:51.:31:55.

that's integrated help protect not just our environment for our

:31:56.:32:00.

national and economic security. Now and for generations to come.

:32:01.:32:15.

As the Minister said in his speech, instead of making excuses tomorrow

:32:16.:32:18.

to our children and grandchildren, we should be taking action against

:32:19.:32:21.

climate change today. Mr Speaker, I am proud to say there aren't no more

:32:22.:32:23.

excuses. We have committed to action. This unequivocably in the

:32:24.:32:29.

interest of brand. It moves towards a level playing field. The Society

:32:30.:32:35.

of business has thrived as we transition to a low carbon economy.

:32:36.:32:42.

This is a deal we are committed to, recognises that action by one state

:32:43.:32:46.

alone cannot and will not solve climate change. And is what we do

:32:47.:32:51.

together that can copy I would like to say that all parties in the house

:32:52.:32:56.

can take significant credit for this. To gather, we passed the 2000

:32:57.:33:02.

and climate change act that set an example to the world of what

:33:03.:33:07.

ambitious action looks like. To gather, since Copenhagen in 2009, we

:33:08.:33:13.

have supports a long and difficult complex negotiation that has brought

:33:14.:33:16.

us to this point. I want to pay tribute not to sue the Prime

:33:17.:33:21.

Minister and my colleagues across government, but to my predecessors

:33:22.:33:24.

as Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change for all of the hard

:33:25.:33:28.

work that they put in to bring us to this point. As a country, we should

:33:29.:33:34.

be proud of the role we have played, leading into the EU, working closely

:33:35.:33:42.

with major global players including the United States and China, and

:33:43.:33:46.

leaving many negotiations. My department has worked tirelessly to

:33:47.:33:49.

build political conditions and the capacity to enable countries to act.

:33:50.:33:56.

The UK team in the Paris show a commitment, passion, and resilient.

:33:57.:34:03.

They asked me to chair a finance session at 4am on Friday morning, I

:34:04.:34:09.

was well supported, when I left at 6:30am, they stayed to write up the

:34:10.:34:13.

conclusions and send them to the presidency. That was commitment. The

:34:14.:34:20.

UK played a key role in building alliances and share positions

:34:21.:34:22.

especially with the most vulnerable country to ensure that it can be

:34:23.:34:30.

maximised. This was not done to us, it was done by us. Indeed, it

:34:31.:34:36.

reflects many elements that we as a country has committed to as part of

:34:37.:34:41.

the climate change act. Of course, Paris is not the end of the road. We

:34:42.:34:47.

cannot sit back and say job done, we are far from that. Paris is the

:34:48.:34:52.

beginning, now the hard work to implement the agreements began. That

:34:53.:34:55.

may turn to what the countries have agreed to. First, we have set up a

:34:56.:35:06.

net zero emissions abide the end of the century. The ship to global

:35:07.:35:14.

antelope carbon economy will happen and provide the confidence needed to

:35:15.:35:18.

drive the scale of investment required. We have confirmed our

:35:19.:35:22.

collective ambition to limit global temperature rises, to below 2

:35:23.:35:31.

degrees. We have agreed a further aspiration of 1.5 degrees. The

:35:32.:35:34.

current level of commitment by individual countries will not meet

:35:35.:35:40.

this ambition. Crucially, countries will come back to the table to

:35:41.:35:46.

assess overall progress toward the 2 degrees goal in 2018 in every five

:35:47.:35:54.

years thereafter. As an grass investment grows and the cost comes

:35:55.:35:57.

down, the parent process will provide not just the opposite sea,

:35:58.:36:07.

but the political process. Starting in 2020, countries are expected to

:36:08.:36:10.

update their own plans to cut emissions and will be legally

:36:11.:36:14.

applied it to do so again every five years. Best, providing regular

:36:15.:36:20.

political moment to scale up ambition. Disagreement is not only

:36:21.:36:25.

comprehensive, it also recognises the role of both the developed

:36:26.:36:30.

economies and emerging economies, helping the poorest and most

:36:31.:36:38.

affordable to transition to a low carbon economy. Over the last five

:36:39.:36:48.

years, the UK's climate fund has been helping millions of the world

:36:49.:36:52.

for to withstand weather and rising temperatures. At the summit in

:36:53.:36:57.

September, the Prime Minister announced a uplift to increase

:36:58.:37:05.

financing by 50%, with ?5.8 billion of climate finance over the next

:37:06.:37:08.

year is to support for invulnerable countries to adapt to climate

:37:09.:37:14.

change. This is part of a global commitment to mobilise 100 billion

:37:15.:37:23.

dollars per year for the public and private sector and support economic

:37:24.:37:28.

growth through 2020. Germany, France, Japan, the United States,

:37:29.:37:33.

and Canada has increased an increase in their climate finance as well. As

:37:34.:37:38.

important as the parents agree with is, we will only achieve our

:37:39.:37:43.

ultimate ambition if it acts as a capitalist, from all parts of

:37:44.:37:47.

society is. That is why it has been so important to see real action over

:37:48.:37:52.

the last month from business and civil society. For example, a new

:37:53.:37:56.

initiative, Mr innovation will see some of the economies doubling

:37:57.:38:05.

investments in clean energy research and development. Private investors

:38:06.:38:09.

will join us and is endeavored to bring down the cost of low carbon

:38:10.:38:15.

technologies. Here, in the UK, we have committed to double spending

:38:16.:38:18.

and clean energy research development so that by 2020, will be

:38:19.:38:24.

spending in excess of ?400 million. This has been amassed by 19 other

:38:25.:38:29.

countries worldwide. This is in recognition of the fact that the

:38:30.:38:33.

wildly tackle climate change if we find technologies that are both

:38:34.:38:41.

clean and cheap. Let me tell you, the announcement I made last month,

:38:42.:38:43.

that I would set out proposals to close the hole by 2025 and restricts

:38:44.:38:50.

use by 2023 added to momentum in Paris. The Paris agreement marks a

:38:51.:38:56.

historic turning point. It builds on protocol and for the first time as

:38:57.:39:01.

it provides a comprehensive framework and words not only

:39:02.:39:03.

developed countries, but nearly every country of the world, has

:39:04.:39:08.

committed to the global action needed to solve global problems. Of

:39:09.:39:13.

course it was hard fought, and it required a compromise to bring

:39:14.:39:16.

everybody with us, it has not solve every problem in the one ago. Now,

:39:17.:39:23.

we have to implement the commitments made. We should not underestimate

:39:24.:39:27.

the significance of what has been achieved. All parties have

:39:28.:39:31.

recognised that economic and global security required us to tackle

:39:32.:39:37.

climate change. All have come together to commit to a single goal.

:39:38.:39:41.

Net zero carbon emissions by the end of the century. All have agreed to

:39:42.:39:46.

set out plans to curb emissions and be held accountable for their

:39:47.:39:50.

actions. We have made a huge step forward in meeting our

:39:51.:39:54.

responsibilities, to this and our future generation. As the excellent

:39:55.:40:01.

executives Terry to the... Said, I used to say we can't, we must, we

:40:02.:40:13.

will, now I can say we did. Can I start by thinking the Secretary of

:40:14.:40:16.

State for her statement. And footage of you that she paid for the success

:40:17.:40:23.

of Secretary of State. She is right to recognise that the crockpot is

:40:24.:40:28.

consensus that has existed since 2008, helped to build that road to

:40:29.:40:33.

Paris and gave the UK its voice in the negotiations, it is a precious

:40:34.:40:37.

legacy for all of us. We must not allow it to fraction now. For the

:40:38.:40:41.

first time, leaders from nearly every country in abroad have come

:40:42.:40:46.

together, to cut carbon pollution and a of to a path for a cleaner and

:40:47.:40:52.

greener future. We have a common goal of building a carbon neutral

:40:53.:40:57.

global economy with a generation to reduce pollution, switch to cleaner

:40:58.:41:02.

energy, and all countries have agreed as she rightly recognised to

:41:03.:41:06.

raise their ambition every five years into the future until the job

:41:07.:41:13.

is done. In is welcome of the Secretary of State made the point

:41:14.:41:16.

that the developed world would do with her share to ensure that 100

:41:17.:41:22.

billion are financed to us is poorer and more portable country. This is a

:41:23.:41:27.

moment to celebrate. Not because this is sufficient, we must be

:41:28.:41:31.

honest that the pledge is put forward by each country do not add

:41:32.:41:35.

up to a commitment that will keep temperature rises below 2 degrees, a

:41:36.:41:44.

gives us enough to take a us much closer to climate safety. The error

:41:45.:41:51.

of unchecked fossil you'll uses, to him and. We are stronger and safer

:41:52.:42:01.

when we work together both at home and abroad. Our voice has been heard

:42:02.:42:05.

because we have worked closely with our friends and the European Union,

:42:06.:42:09.

we have spoken to go there with them, and united with one voice. Our

:42:10.:42:14.

voice has been heard because, two of the heart of work and... They have

:42:15.:42:27.

worked tirelessly with the diplomats and the foreign office to secure

:42:28.:42:30.

this agreement. I would like to place on record our thanks for what

:42:31.:42:35.

they have achieved. And to command the dedication to the British

:42:36.:42:39.

scientist and the campaigners and evade groups in the business

:42:40.:42:43.

leaders, and civil society organizations to mobilise public

:42:44.:42:47.

support for this global deal, last month, myself and my Honorable

:42:48.:42:50.

friend Swan hundreds of thousands of people to march peacefully through

:42:51.:42:55.

the streets of London, and Edinburgh and other major cities of to ensure

:42:56.:43:01.

that our voice was heard in the rooms of Paris. The question now is

:43:02.:43:09.

what this deal means for Britain's. In recent months, the government has

:43:10.:43:13.

made a series of decisions that have set us back on the road to climate

:43:14.:43:18.

safety. Ministers have attacked the cheapest options for achieving

:43:19.:43:23.

carbon targets which means that energy bills to household may rise

:43:24.:43:29.

as a result. Last week, during the Paris negotiations, ministers

:43:30.:43:33.

decided to raise household and energy bills again to the capacity

:43:34.:43:36.

market auction which was the hundreds of millions of pounds, go

:43:37.:43:41.

to energy companies to keep open power stations that would have been

:43:42.:43:46.

opened anyway. It is difficult to see, how this is consistent with

:43:47.:43:50.

what the Secretary of State said today and her claim to be acting to

:43:51.:43:56.

control costs. Can she explain this today? And equally, ministers have

:43:57.:44:00.

undermined our progress on the cob and stories which will be crucial.

:44:01.:44:17.

In Yorkshire and Scotland, communities and engineers are

:44:18.:44:20.

reeling from the chancellors assistant to ask ?1 billion fund.

:44:21.:44:26.

Can see tell us today that this will be reverse? The government has

:44:27.:44:30.

wasted no time and blocking of new wind farms even where they enjoy

:44:31.:44:35.

strong local support of. They have made severe and short-sighted costs

:44:36.:44:39.

for energy efficiency and solar power scheme. Thousands have lost

:44:40.:44:44.

their jobs, thousands more could still. Millions will goal in this

:44:45.:44:50.

winter facing cold homes and high energy bills, in this country that

:44:51.:44:55.

is avoidable. The damnest to human life and the damage to the planet

:44:56.:45:00.

for these positions if the Mets. Following the prime minister of

:45:01.:45:03.

words in Paris, will she sell the house that the government as a whole

:45:04.:45:09.

will listen? To stop the sell-off of the green investment bank, in a

:45:10.:45:12.

manner that removes the mandate and means it is free to invest in fossil

:45:13.:45:17.

fuels, to stop the tax on more efficient vehicles and to stop

:45:18.:45:34.

another tax rate on the renewable energy industry, these are all steps

:45:35.:45:38.

that will take us back on climate change and jeopardise British jobs

:45:39.:45:40.

and industries for the future. Is raises the question, what is this

:45:41.:45:42.

government plans for meeting rings climate change. The committee form

:45:43.:45:44.

that British energy policy is failing and only this morning, it

:45:45.:45:52.

was called for more clarity. News of the Paris deal and the goal it

:45:53.:45:58.

contains, they told the BBC that businesses want to see domestic

:45:59.:46:02.

policies that demonstrate commitment to this goal. Can the Secretary of

:46:03.:46:06.

State confirm whether her governmental recent string, of the

:46:07.:46:12.

Carina will be reviewed in light of the new assurances that we have sent

:46:13.:46:17.

every country will play its part in addressing climate change. Secondly,

:46:18.:46:21.

candy and at his secretary confirmed that the UK will continue to support

:46:22.:46:26.

raising European targets on reducing carbon pollution by 2030 to ensure

:46:27.:46:32.

that they're making our fair constitution, and grasping the

:46:33.:46:36.

maximum potential for our economy for granted industries. Finally,

:46:37.:46:41.

will be an undersecretary asked the independent secretary on climate

:46:42.:46:45.

change to review the adequacy of Britain's existing carbon reduction

:46:46.:46:48.

targets and lights of the new international goal of limiting

:46:49.:46:54.

global temperature rises well below 2 degrees, I want to know more. Two

:46:55.:46:59.

weeks ago, the prime minister said, when we look back, we will ask what

:47:00.:47:04.

was it that was so difficult when the world was in peril. The

:47:05.:47:08.

Secretary of State said in her statement to the house there are no

:47:09.:47:14.

excuses. I look forward as to all my Honorable friend asked to hearing

:47:15.:47:18.

how she intends to breathe life into this historic landmark agreement.

:47:19.:47:25.

Low I thank her for her questions. I really welcome her support for the

:47:26.:47:30.

overall deal. And answered her questions I would point out to

:47:31.:47:37.

point. The first is that the UK's emissions are 1.2% of the world. Our

:47:38.:47:42.

emphasis must go on making sure that we get an international deal. That

:47:43.:47:46.

is why we were so committed. That is why we spent the past week trying to

:47:47.:47:51.

achieve its. Working to ensure that we got China into the deal which is

:47:52.:47:55.

26% of the world the mission was more than the EU in the US combined,

:47:56.:48:02.

we remain committed. And we commit to making sure that we golf forward

:48:03.:48:07.

on a low carbon future. There is no value in it if we do not have

:48:08.:48:10.

influence in the rest of the world, that is what we achieved this week.

:48:11.:48:16.

Making sure that that influence was absorbed and taken on, so that we

:48:17.:48:21.

could receive agreement while very late on Saturday night. In tones of

:48:22.:48:25.

answering her question on our position, we are committed to the

:48:26.:48:29.

climate change act and to our goals, and to our carbon budget. But the

:48:30.:48:34.

difference between her side of the house and ours, is that the will not

:48:35.:48:39.

risk the security of supply, and be will not put additional costs on

:48:40.:48:44.

consumers copy she asked about the capacity market and I am afraid that

:48:45.:48:47.

her and I am afraid that her interpretation is wrong. The

:48:48.:48:52.

capacity market is to take no risk when security of supply, that is

:48:53.:48:56.

what we have done and we are proud of doing that. In terms of the

:48:57.:49:01.

actions on renewables, this is about ensuring that our consumers that

:49:02.:49:05.

they pay the rent price for the renewables that we remain committed

:49:06.:49:09.

to. As the cost of renewables come down, it is absolutely right that

:49:10.:49:13.

the subsidies come down, it is completely wrong to characterize the

:49:14.:49:21.

eyes of -- is of having anything negative at all. We remain

:49:22.:49:28.

committed. It was a tight spending round with the spending review with

:49:29.:49:33.

the treasury, this was ?1 billion, and the fact that we made an

:49:34.:49:37.

invisible not to proceed with it, I believe that CCS will have a

:49:38.:49:41.

important part in the colonising in the future. Article he on industrial

:49:42.:49:48.

CCS. Will work internationally to make progress on that. This

:49:49.:49:52.

government is absolutely committed to the a low carbon future that is

:49:53.:49:57.

valued for money and costly provide security to consumers and families.

:49:58.:50:06.

As far as I'm aware, there are only two peer-reviewed studies which have

:50:07.:50:12.

computed the total reductions for admissions promised by the members

:50:13.:50:19.

Paris. Fan of them through the standard climate model and

:50:20.:50:23.

calculated the impact on future temperatures. Both have concluded

:50:24.:50:30.

that the temperature on 2100 as a result of this treaty will be a

:50:31.:50:39.

point to degrees of what it would be. With the joy of the pound be

:50:40.:50:44.

spent on as a small achievement be better spent on the alleviating

:50:45.:50:51.

poverty and eradicating disease? I think the right Honorable Thompson

:50:52.:50:57.

and for his questions. However, at the core of his question, is then

:50:58.:51:00.

suggested that what we are doing here does not alleviate poverty. On

:51:01.:51:07.

that, he cannot be more wrong. It is through climate finance and the

:51:08.:51:10.

investment that will be coming to the private sector as well that the

:51:11.:51:14.

government will be able to leverage, that we will help to alleviate

:51:15.:51:18.

poverty that we will provide energy and areas of Africa and India that

:51:19.:51:26.

had never happened before. I should gently point out that all of our

:51:27.:51:32.

right Honorable members who were not present at the start of the

:51:33.:51:36.

Secretary of State famous and not because. Now that I have made that

:51:37.:51:41.

point, it will be unseemly for them to continue to stand, as well as

:51:42.:51:51.

fruitless. I would like to add my thanks to the Secretary of State,

:51:52.:51:55.

her team, and all of those who have made this possible both at home and

:51:56.:52:01.

abroad, the term historic has been I think rightly so in terms of the

:52:02.:52:05.

rhetoric around this. Who will be judged not by the words, led by the

:52:06.:52:10.

deeds. If I can comment on that in this response to the statement. We

:52:11.:52:14.

very much welcome the money that is being contribution it to climate

:52:15.:52:19.

change, and those that contribute Alize to it. This deal is not

:52:20.:52:27.

perfect, it has been an that it is not enough. There needs to be an

:52:28.:52:31.

upping of our game at home and abroad if we will be meeting the

:52:32.:52:39.

target of 2 degrees or below. And any major upping of our game if we

:52:40.:52:49.

will meet 1.5 degrees. One gave an eloquent statement about the low

:52:50.:52:53.

carbon economy and the one who answered the questions and

:52:54.:52:59.

reiterated some of the appalling betrayals that the economy has

:53:00.:53:01.

suffered at the hands of the government. There is no excuse in

:53:02.:53:07.

the statement. For the last six months I have heard so many excuses.

:53:08.:53:18.

On carbon capture and storage, excuses. The green investment bank,

:53:19.:53:24.

more excuses. Will she rethink these policies, will she reinvest in them,

:53:25.:53:27.

or are we to hear more excuses the possibilities are enormous. Yet,

:53:28.:53:45.

we seem determined to throw away the lead that we have in various

:53:46.:53:52.

technologies, at a time when we are following the work that my Honorable

:53:53.:54:00.

friend have said, the government is penny wise but pound foolish. I have

:54:01.:54:08.

had to question my hearing that this carbon capture is going to have a

:54:09.:54:12.

Bright future. It may, but it will be technology developed by others,

:54:13.:54:16.

and others will make money out of it. That is sold short sighted, it

:54:17.:54:22.

is beyond belief. Scotland wants to play the part, had we can't play the

:54:23.:54:26.

part, but be required of government to match the weather up with it the.

:54:27.:54:32.

-- will she allow us to play our part or will we hear more excuses? I

:54:33.:54:39.

do not agree with the characterize patients. I share his enthusiasm,

:54:40.:54:45.

for the low carbon economy but we are going about this in a different

:54:46.:54:48.

way, we are making sure that we deliver better value for money, and

:54:49.:54:52.

we are investing in the future in a way that has not been done over the

:54:53.:54:57.

25 years. For instance, with nuclear, and also with offshore

:54:58.:55:00.

wind, which I'm sure he would support. We must support the low

:55:01.:55:04.

carbon economy while also maintaining security of supply. I'm

:55:05.:55:09.

sure he would also continue to support

:55:10.:55:14.

My right honourable friend who called me to my concerns and they

:55:15.:55:21.

talk about other countries commitments to climate targets. What

:55:22.:55:23.

will my right honourable friend tell me ahead to encourage other

:55:24.:55:27.

countries to meet their climate targets? I think the honourable Lady

:55:28.:55:33.

for that question. She is right that not all countries have the same

:55:34.:55:37.

resources as we have to meet those targets. I am happy to say that we

:55:38.:55:40.

have a number of tools of which we offer to work with other countries,

:55:41.:55:44.

which is very helpful for them, such as the global calculator which helps

:55:45.:55:47.

them work out what steps they need to take to meet their targets. We

:55:48.:55:53.

expect to step up that engagement to help them meet their targets. Mr

:55:54.:55:58.

Speaker, can the Secretary of State for her role in this agreement. In

:55:59.:56:03.

particular, the formation of the so-called high ambition Coalition

:56:04.:56:07.

between developed countries and vulnerable countries, which is such

:56:08.:56:09.

an important part of getting the deal that she did. If I can put it

:56:10.:56:13.

this way, I think we want her on this site am I to be part of a high

:56:14.:56:16.

ambition Coalition at home as well as abroad. In that context she

:56:17.:56:23.

mentioned zero emissions and the important goal of net zero emissions

:56:24.:56:26.

that is contained in the agreement, I believe the second half of the

:56:27.:56:29.

century. Canty confirmed that that will apply not just globally come

:56:30.:56:34.

about will apply to the tent every country that his signature he to be

:56:35.:56:38.

agreement? I thank the right honourable gentleman for his words

:56:39.:56:42.

and I share his enthusiasm nationally for high ambition.

:56:43.:56:44.

Perhaps less of a Coalition for now. I would also say it is a great

:56:45.:56:48.

achievement to have the zero emissions target. Within the

:56:49.:56:54.

long-term goal. For now I think as far as the UK's concern we will

:56:55.:56:58.

continue to focus on our climate change targets for 2015. Thank you

:56:59.:57:07.

Mr Speaker. Given the UK's climate change laws are stricter am a down

:57:08.:57:12.

to the obligations agreed in Paris, does my right honourable friend

:57:13.:57:16.

agreed that there is a really risk of bridges business being put at

:57:17.:57:21.

eight competitive disadvantage -- a competitive disadvantage if we do

:57:22.:57:23.

not cut the cost of energy, particularly for energy intensive

:57:24.:57:30.

companies. He is right to highlight the issue of competitiveness. Defect

:57:31.:57:35.

is getting this global deal is a way of addressing the issue of

:57:36.:57:37.

competitiveness, because other countries will have to step up and

:57:38.:57:41.

make the same sort of plans that we are doing -- the fact is. The best

:57:42.:57:45.

way to reduce the cost of energy is to make sure that the energy itself

:57:46.:57:49.

is less costly by driving down the cost and the sort of actions that

:57:50.:57:54.

this government has taken. Thank you Mr Speaker. And all the acres of

:57:55.:57:57.

media covers with the Paris agreement, I think it's on the test

:57:58.:58:03.

as comparison to what could have been a Mirko, by comparison to what

:58:04.:58:05.

it should have been it's a disaster. I welcome the inclusion of the goal,

:58:06.:58:10.

but that is meaningless without to deliver it. In particular keeping

:58:11.:58:13.

the vast majority of fossil fuels on the ground. Can she tell us how the

:58:14.:58:17.

government's recently agreed duty to maximise economic recovery of oil

:58:18.:58:22.

and gas is anything other than completely incompatible with what

:58:23.:58:25.

she just signed up to in Paris? Good to interpret that as a cautious

:58:26.:58:32.

welcome from the honourable Lady. There is an element of this deal

:58:33.:58:35.

which you must agree is rather extraordinary, having 200 countries

:58:36.:58:39.

participate copy the answer to your question is that we cannot take any

:58:40.:58:45.

risk at all with energy security. Maximum economic recovery is

:58:46.:58:47.

absolutely a commitment from this government. We have to get a balance

:58:48.:58:51.

right. We have to make sure that we can protect energy security while

:58:52.:58:57.

growing our low carbon economy. Mr Speaker, we can do both. Thank you

:58:58.:59:06.

Mr Speaker. I congratulate the Secretary of State and her team for

:59:07.:59:09.

what they achieved in Paris. She will be aware that since 1990 the UK

:59:10.:59:12.

has decreased emissions by around 10%, faster than the EU. Other

:59:13.:59:18.

countries within the EU, had difficulty achieving anything like

:59:19.:59:20.

that. In the Austria, Holland, Maine, Portugal have all increased

:59:21.:59:26.

commissions since 1990 -- Spain. What policy exists as within the EU

:59:27.:59:31.

to make sure that is not allowed to continue? Mr Speaker, the honourable

:59:32.:59:36.

gentleman who is so experienced in this field has highlighted the issue

:59:37.:59:41.

of the use sharing response abilities which we will move to next

:59:42.:59:46.

year. I don't doubt this will be a challenging negotiation, but the

:59:47.:59:49.

UK's experience is that we can demonstrates our leadership by

:59:50.:59:51.

showing that we have driven down emissions while growing our economy

:59:52.:59:56.

and we hope we'll be able to demonstrates at two other countries

:59:57.:00:01.

and encourage them to follow suit. Chair of the select committee. Hear,

:00:02.:00:05.

hear! Firstly, can I thank the Secretary

:00:06.:00:08.

of State for a statement and congratulate her on the involvement

:00:09.:00:13.

in the Paris talks. Will she take the chance to review and reset the

:00:14.:00:16.

last six months of policy of our government? The cheapest funds of

:00:17.:00:22.

the generation, renewable generation, energy efficiency and

:00:23.:00:27.

CCS, all cut. Will she look again at the diesel generator loopholes and

:00:28.:00:29.

make sure that transportation plays a full part with Mike I feel that

:00:30.:00:38.

this government has been, as they viewed to government has cost to

:00:39.:00:41.

date rather than saving for the future. Especially when it comes to

:00:42.:00:44.

be clear. Just what will change in her department due to be Paris

:00:45.:00:48.

talks? Hear, hear! I am happy to say that the Paris

:00:49.:00:51.

agreement allows us to continue on the path that this government has

:00:52.:00:55.

set. In terms of delivering a low carbon future and sticking to our

:00:56.:01:01.

climate change act commitment, but also always make a show that we take

:01:02.:01:04.

no risk with security and provide value for money for consumers. Thank

:01:05.:01:12.

you Mr Speaker. May I congratulate my right honourable friend on what

:01:13.:01:16.

has been achieved and also the French government for magnificent

:01:17.:01:20.

hosting of this summit. Given that, a lot of the climate finance pledged

:01:21.:01:24.

by the wealthy nations is likely to be classified as ODA. Given many of

:01:25.:01:33.

our friends in Europe so no sign of increasing the percentage of ODA

:01:34.:01:35.

that they are giving as a percentage of their gross national income. Is

:01:36.:01:39.

she concerned that some of this climate finance may be actually

:01:40.:01:43.

taking away from the amount available on a for instance, for the

:01:44.:01:47.

refugee crisis in Syria and other concerns around the world? Mr

:01:48.:01:51.

Speaker, the honourable gentleman is right. My honourable friend is right

:01:52.:01:54.

to praise the French government, who managed this in an extraordinarily

:01:55.:02:00.

able way with great diplomatic skill. I would say the issue of the

:02:01.:02:06.

$100 billion to be mobilised by 2020 is a challenging one for everyone

:02:07.:02:09.

involved. And it is something that we will constantly return to to

:02:10.:02:13.

ensure that it is delivered, but do not forget it is also mobilised. Is

:02:14.:02:17.

not entirely the government to deliver it is also an attempt to

:02:18.:02:20.

generate private-sector influence as well. Thank you Mr Speaker. I would

:02:21.:02:26.

like to add my congratulations to all those involved in these

:02:27.:02:30.

important talks in Paris. One of the most are mockable things about the

:02:31.:02:36.

aspirations to hold reductions to one and a half degrees --

:02:37.:02:39.

remarkable. As it was said, the Paris process adds political

:02:40.:02:45.

pressure to emissions reduction. Would she like to apply some of that

:02:46.:02:48.

political pressure to be Chancellor of the Exchequer, who said the other

:02:49.:02:53.

day that he hadn't inherited anything and the decision of carbon

:02:54.:03:00.

capture is not to cut. I think I will welcome the honourable Lady's

:03:01.:03:05.

comments. About the ambition that we have, which was also referred to

:03:06.:03:09.

earlier, in terms of the 1.5 degrees which was achieved in working

:03:10.:03:13.

closely with the high ambition Coalition. Mr Speaker, it is no

:03:14.:03:19.

longer a question of whether but when will tackle man's impact on the

:03:20.:03:26.

climate. It is a huge achievement to have included developing economies

:03:27.:03:29.

in the ambition. Moreover to make that ambition a relisted one. What

:03:30.:03:35.

part having play in accelerating our need for game changing technology,

:03:36.:03:40.

and what part of clean energy that will produce at Hinkley Point in

:03:41.:03:46.

Somerset will happen in the process? He is right. The distinguishing

:03:47.:03:55.

factor is that it includes developing countries. We are

:03:56.:03:57.

committed to ensure that we work across other governments to develop

:03:58.:04:01.

new energy sources in our particular programme of mission innovation, but

:04:02.:04:04.

I do also agree that nuclear, including Hinkley Point which is the

:04:05.:04:09.

first nuclear deal to be commissioned for 25 years, is going

:04:10.:04:12.

to be an important part of the low carbon future. The Secretary of

:04:13.:04:19.

State is correct in wanting a level playing field between this country

:04:20.:04:22.

and other countries. At the failure of Paris to reach the aspirations of

:04:23.:04:28.

the German conference to have legally bought binding limits on

:04:29.:04:34.

carving dioxide admissions for all countries, so he puts us at when we

:04:35.:04:37.

do have legally binding commitments. We've already lost great talks of

:04:38.:04:46.

the Armenian industry. How to produce that level playing field to

:04:47.:04:50.

the advantage of our industries? Hear,

:04:51.:04:55.

The honourable Bob gentleman raises an important point. I would say

:04:56.:04:59.

although there are some elements that are not legally binding, there

:05:00.:05:02.

are plenty that are. The fact is that every country has to come at

:05:03.:05:06.

every five years and did demonstrate what they are doing. There will be,

:05:07.:05:10.

I help, and political moment at that point. NGOs, civil society,

:05:11.:05:15.

businesses, watching and campaigning to make sure that we always make

:05:16.:05:18.

progress. Countries cannot go back on the commitments, that can only go

:05:19.:05:22.

forward. I say do not yet underestimate the impact this will

:05:23.:05:26.

have internationally. Thank you Mr Speaker. Can I add my

:05:27.:05:30.

congratulations to the Secretary of State and all those who worked many

:05:31.:05:34.

years on achieving an impressive outcome. But can the Secretary of

:05:35.:05:37.

State confirm whether the success criteria set before the conference

:05:38.:05:40.

were actually achieved at the conference? A good question from my

:05:41.:05:47.

honour will friend. I can say that most of our criteria were met. But

:05:48.:05:50.

nobody will have left that conference saying that all of that

:05:51.:05:53.

criteria were met. That is how we got a deal. Everybody had to cover

:05:54.:05:57.

my day little. That was the achievement of the agreement. I

:05:58.:06:03.

thank the Secretary of State for what is a landmark statement and

:06:04.:06:06.

congratulate her on her personal stamina at 4am, and what she paid to

:06:07.:06:13.

her predecessors of all political parties. I think she will agree that

:06:14.:06:17.

the fact that Europe spoke at the one voice was a significant part of

:06:18.:06:24.

the process -- but as one voice. Nonetheless, there is still

:06:25.:06:27.

consistency needed. Does he agree it is essential that we go to harass

:06:28.:06:30.

and sign up ambitious targets, but yet the inconsistency had a

:06:31.:06:36.

meaningful role, signed in a last Parliament to deal with climate

:06:37.:06:41.

change back at home? I would say that the success of the Paris

:06:42.:06:47.

agreement was intended nationally determined contributions that each

:06:48.:06:50.

country had to make and come forward with to participate. Almost every

:06:51.:06:54.

country had done that by the date of the agreement. These are voluntary.

:06:55.:06:59.

Very few countries criticised each other. Each country delivers in

:07:00.:07:03.

their only. That is what the UK is going to do and that is what we will

:07:04.:07:10.

continue to do. Mr Speaker, on current taint of uncontrolled

:07:11.:07:13.

immigration, this country will have a population of 30 million more by

:07:14.:07:16.

the end of the century -- current change. What effect does he think

:07:17.:07:23.

that will have on our emissions? I can reassure the honourable

:07:24.:07:26.

gentleman that the big influence, the most of our CO2 emissions, it is

:07:27.:07:32.

generally from the power sector and from industry and we will constantly

:07:33.:07:36.

be monitoring them in order to enable us to have continued

:07:37.:07:42.

reductions. And I commended the Secretary of State and her officials

:07:43.:07:44.

for the part they played in securing the Paris agreement? With that

:07:45.:07:48.

agreement now in place, printable if anything need to be born ambitious

:07:49.:07:52.

when it comes to emissions reductions -- Britain's. And we have

:07:53.:07:54.

been. Yet we know the government are struggling to meet their renewables

:07:55.:07:59.

target, when it comes to heat and transport. As in certain areas we

:08:00.:08:03.

know be chancellor ultimately cause the shots copy will she let the

:08:04.:08:06.

House know what progress she has made in persuading her honourable

:08:07.:08:10.

friend to do more to the that sector? Hear, hear!

:08:11.:08:13.

The honourable gentleman is absolutely right with the renewables

:08:14.:08:17.

target, the talented heat and transport. I can ensure that I am

:08:18.:08:21.

working closely with the Secretary of State for Transport and local

:08:22.:08:25.

government to put together a plan to ensure that we can make that target.

:08:26.:08:31.

Thank you Mr Speaker. Secretary of State will be aware that a large

:08:32.:08:36.

percentage still come from coal-fired power. Get to give some

:08:37.:08:39.

results as she moves to our low carbon future that consumers prices

:08:40.:08:43.

will remain affordable as well as the continued to supply, but also

:08:44.:08:51.

carbon linkage? I can reassure my honourable friend that we would in

:08:52.:08:55.

no way sacrifice our security of supply as we move towards a low

:08:56.:08:59.

carbon economy. But I can also tell him that putting and end date is an

:09:00.:09:03.

important part of making sure that we do meet our low-carb future --

:09:04.:09:08.

low carbon future. We should be proud that this is the first

:09:09.:09:11.

developed country to put an end date on it. Hear, hear!

:09:12.:09:18.

Can I ask the secretary of state whether she has full confidence that

:09:19.:09:24.

there really will be adherent in terms of the funding commitments and

:09:25.:09:26.

the action plans that governments have signed up to. And I commend her

:09:27.:09:31.

on her statement on the work that went down to this agreement which

:09:32.:09:38.

uses human rights language in a stronger way than before. And any

:09:39.:09:42.

environmental agreement. How confident is she? The honourable

:09:43.:09:50.

gentleman is right that the financial contributions, the $100

:09:51.:09:53.

billion by 2020, were a key element of bringing on developing countries

:09:54.:09:57.

would have never participated before in this sort of commitment. I would

:09:58.:10:01.

say to him that it is one side of the agreement and it is absolutely

:10:02.:10:05.

essential that we do deliver on that. But it is not just governments

:10:06.:10:09.

who would do it, but businesses as well. I think the success of the

:10:10.:10:14.

business, of the agreement over the next 5-15 years will be tested if it

:10:15.:10:20.

doesn't happen. Thank you Mr Speaker. I congratulate the

:10:21.:10:22.

Secretary of State and her whole team for the part they played in

:10:23.:10:25.

reaching this historic deal. She will know that it is not only about

:10:26.:10:29.

acting globally, but locally. I wonder if she would join me in

:10:30.:10:33.

paying tribute to community groups all around the country who are very

:10:34.:10:39.

keen to meet with her to talk further about the role they can play

:10:40.:10:44.

taking these goals further. I would always be delighted. She is of

:10:45.:10:50.

course right that it is much more effective if these actions are taken

:10:51.:10:53.

locally, nationally, but above all not top-down, internationally. Will

:10:54.:11:00.

she bridge her rhetoric to reality by announcing investments in the

:11:01.:11:08.

Swansea, Cardiff, and Newport, title game which will exploit and for the

:11:09.:11:13.

first time ever, neglect immense power of the tides which are

:11:14.:11:20.

entirely predictable and when linked to power schemes, are response will

:11:21.:11:32.

that? Tidal power is green, not carbon, and eternal. The honourable

:11:33.:11:39.

judgement is right that we are looking closely at the opportunity

:11:40.:11:43.

for title power. We are in due diligence now. If we meet the

:11:44.:11:47.

targets of being secure, clean, and affordable that we will certainly be

:11:48.:11:52.

taking it very seriously. Thank you Mr Speaker. What assessment has she

:11:53.:11:58.

made of the UK energy markets capacity to replace innovative call

:11:59.:12:06.

by the cutoff date of 2020? I think my honourable friend for the

:12:07.:12:09.

question. We will be doing a consultation at the beginning of

:12:10.:12:12.

next year in order to address that. I have been very clear in the policy

:12:13.:12:16.

choices I said out that we expect to bring on more gas in order to cover

:12:17.:12:21.

some of that call that will be coming off. Thank you Mr Speaker.

:12:22.:12:26.

Investors in renewable energy tell me that they want a certainty from

:12:27.:12:30.

the government's energy policy. I wonder if the Secretary of State

:12:31.:12:34.

could the David Teague -- could set out the key milestones consider any

:12:35.:12:40.

Paris agreement for the announcement to be made in renewables? A lot of

:12:41.:12:46.

our targets have not changed as a result of the Paris agreement I'm a

:12:47.:12:49.

although of course I would discuss with them closely within my

:12:50.:12:52.

department. We have already set up our plans. We will be setting out

:12:53.:12:59.

shortly our plans for solar. Thank you Mr Speaker. The Scottish first

:13:00.:13:04.

Minister announced a ?12 million adjustment in addition to the

:13:05.:13:08.

Scottish government's announcement. What new money for adaptation is

:13:09.:13:14.

being used as a world so -- result of the agreement? Is the Speaker, I

:13:15.:13:20.

think my right honour will friend, the Prime Minister, has been

:13:21.:13:23.

cleared. As I said my earlier comments he has already announced a

:13:24.:13:27.

50% increase in our climate fund. That is being welcomed by developing

:13:28.:13:35.

countries. Thank you Mr Speaker. With the Secretary of State agree

:13:36.:13:38.

with me that this is really good news? The really hard work now

:13:39.:13:43.

begins, turning aspiration into action. Will I tell her, and will

:13:44.:13:50.

she agree with me, that we've got to maintain the view that this country

:13:51.:13:53.

has had for some time of sharing intellectual property and innovation

:13:54.:14:00.

with many other countries, entering to a Council committee on

:14:01.:14:06.

sustainable production. Shares with other countries innovation that

:14:07.:14:10.

could reduce their carbon emissions. He is like. Having that shared

:14:11.:14:13.

vision across different countries is essential. Actually, the technology

:14:14.:14:19.

section within the agreement is very important to some of the developing

:14:20.:14:22.

countries to give confidence and. I would also add that we have doubled

:14:23.:14:27.

our spent on innovation spending and energy to join the Americans and

:14:28.:14:31.

other developed countries with image innovation, which is all about

:14:32.:14:34.

sharing, investment and technology discoveries. Thank you Mr Speaker.

:14:35.:14:42.

Can I congratulate the Secretary of State on her role in achieving this

:14:43.:14:46.

historic agreement. But in doing so, can I say to her that she except

:14:47.:14:51.

that if the government is going to meet its commitment and show some

:14:52.:14:57.

leadership in the world, then it's got to challenge the process of

:14:58.:15:02.

renewable energies. In particular, onshore wind. It was a cautious

:15:03.:15:05.

parliament from the honourable gentleman. I would say that is not

:15:06.:15:09.

what I found internationally. When I discussed it with other ministers,

:15:10.:15:12.

what I found was a lot of interest in what we were doing to drive down

:15:13.:15:16.

the cost of renewables. Renewables should not have a subsidy for ever.

:15:17.:15:20.

The point is to try and engage with the industry so that they have a

:15:21.:15:25.

lower-cost. The success of a truly deep carbonized low carbon,

:15:26.:15:31.

international economy will be when Green energy really reduces and

:15:32.:15:35.

cost. I have long been a supporter of cooperative immunity renewable

:15:36.:15:41.

energy schemes. Met with one such company last week they tell me the

:15:42.:15:44.

uncertainty that the government provided has caused problems for

:15:45.:15:49.

planning any future. How will she provide policy certainty photos who

:15:50.:15:52.

want to play our bit in meeting this agreement? Hear, hear!

:15:53.:15:55.

I would remind the honourable gentleman that costs increases for

:15:56.:16:00.

solar panels over the last 20 years have come down by 80% -- costs for

:16:01.:16:06.

solar panels. I will surely be making an announcement about what

:16:07.:16:08.

that will be coming down to going forward. I'm sure he will be

:16:09.:16:12.

interested in that result. A statement. The Secretary of State

:16:13.:16:18.

for Transport. With permission, Mr Speaker, I'd like to make a

:16:19.:16:22.

statement about airport policy. Aviation is a British success story.

:16:23.:16:25.

Today we have the third-largest aviation network in world. Second

:16:26.:16:30.

only to be United States and China. Went with that success comes

:16:31.:16:35.

charges. Heathrow is down, Gatwick is going up. The entire London

:16:36.:16:42.

system will be full by 2014. Yet we need new connections to new cities

:16:43.:16:46.

in the new economies. There are other challenges too. Airports

:16:47.:16:49.

create jobs and opportunities. Technology is changing. Planes are

:16:50.:16:55.

becoming quieter and more efficient. But there is still inevitably, and

:16:56.:16:59.

environmental impact. For some, the argument seems simple. Opposed all

:17:00.:17:05.

expansion anywhere, or back it but always somewhere else. Yes, there

:17:06.:17:10.

are opportunities in the network of the national airports with global

:17:11.:17:17.

connections from cities such as Birmingham, Edinburgh, Glasgow,

:17:18.:17:19.

Manchester, and Newcastle. But growth year will, alongside world in

:17:20.:17:24.

the Southeast. -- growth here. Not instead of it. Which is why in

:17:25.:17:28.

September 2012, Sir Heron Davis was asked to leads the commission. His

:17:29.:17:34.

final report was published less than six months ago and made a strong

:17:35.:17:37.

case for expansion in the Southeast. We have considered that evidence.

:17:38.:17:43.

The government accepts the case for expansion. And the government

:17:44.:17:46.

accepts that the airports commission short list of options or expansion.

:17:47.:17:51.

Will begin work straightaway on preparing the building blocks from

:17:52.:17:56.

airport national policy statement in line with the planning act of 2008.

:17:57.:18:01.

Thing this new framework in place. Will be essential groundwork for it

:18:02.:18:07.

implement them of the decision we take, wherever the new capacity is

:18:08.:18:11.

to be built. That is the issue I want to turn to now. To Howard Davis

:18:12.:18:16.

and his team produced a powerful report. Heathrow airport scheme was

:18:17.:18:21.

recommended by the airports commission, but all three schemes

:18:22.:18:25.

were deemed viable. We are continuing to consider all three

:18:26.:18:30.

schemes. We want to see action. But we must get the next steps right.

:18:31.:18:36.

Also those, keen to push ahead with expansion and for those who will be

:18:37.:18:40.

affected by it. So we will undertake a package of overwork. First, we

:18:41.:18:45.

must deal with air quality. I want to build confidence so expansion can

:18:46.:18:51.

take place within the legal limits. So we will accept the environmental

:18:52.:18:54.

audit committee's recommendation to test commission's work against the

:18:55.:19:00.

government's new air quality plans. Second, we must deal with concerns

:19:01.:19:03.

about noise. I want to get the best possible outcome for this, for local

:19:04.:19:09.

residents. So I will engage further with the promoters to make sure the

:19:10.:19:13.

best package of noise mitigation measures are in place. Third, we

:19:14.:19:18.

must deal with carbon emissions, so we will look at all the measures to

:19:19.:19:24.

mitigate urban impact and address the sustainability concerns

:19:25.:19:25.

particularly during construction. Fourth, we must manage the other

:19:26.:19:31.

impacts on local communities. I want people who stand to lose their homes

:19:32.:19:34.

to be properly compensated for the impact of expansion. And I want

:19:35.:19:38.

local people to have the best access to the opportunities that expansion

:19:39.:19:44.

will bring, including new jobs and apprenticeships. So we will develop

:19:45.:19:47.

detailed community mitigation measures for each of the short list

:19:48.:19:52.

options. We expect to conclude this package to work by the summer.

:19:53.:19:56.

Critically, this means delivering the timetable for the additional

:19:57.:20:02.

capacity set out by Sahara, does not alter. The commission reported that

:20:03.:20:07.

an additional runway would be a requirement I2030 and we intend to

:20:08.:20:14.

meet that. I am fully aware that some will wish we will go further.

:20:15.:20:17.

And others will wish we are making no such progress at all. We are

:20:18.:20:21.

prepared for that. I want to get this decision right. That means

:20:22.:20:28.

getting the environment respond right and in the meantime, getting

:20:29.:20:32.

on with the hard work to build a new capacity to the timetable set out by

:20:33.:20:36.

Sir Howard in the commissions report. Mr Speaker, I commend the

:20:37.:20:42.

statement to be housed. Hear, hear! Speaker Mac I think the Secretary of

:20:43.:20:47.

State for the side of his statement. He should not have fallen to

:20:48.:20:50.

announce that the Prime Minister has broken the clear promise he gave to

:20:51.:20:53.

the House in July. When he said that the guarantee that I can give is

:20:54.:20:59.

that a decision will be made by the end of the year. So my first

:21:00.:21:02.

question is simple. Why is it the Prime Minister explaining his own

:21:03.:21:07.

U-turn? Mr Speaker, my response is very limited due to the brevity of

:21:08.:21:12.

his statement, but I want to register our protest to the

:21:13.:21:17.

government's decision to announce this decision through the press. The

:21:18.:21:20.

Secretary of State said that when an announcement is to be made he would

:21:21.:21:24.

make it in the House, but instead we got a last-minute note from our

:21:25.:21:28.

crisis Prime Minister explaining why he couldn't meet his own deadline.

:21:29.:21:34.

That shambolic announcement on Thursday has rightly been condemned

:21:35.:21:36.

by businesses and honourable members on both sides of the House. Hear,

:21:37.:21:41.

hear! Mr Speaker, we need a new runway in

:21:42.:21:44.

the southeast, but the environmental concerns have been known since July.

:21:45.:21:48.

So what has he been doing for the last six months? The government's

:21:49.:21:52.

announcement was such in shambles that the secretary of state do not

:21:53.:21:56.

do is basic information about the new environmental and mitigation

:21:57.:22:02.

more. What are the areas east believes still need to be addressed

:22:03.:22:06.

-- he believes? Who will be leading this work? What are the terms of

:22:07.:22:10.

reference and will look report? If you cannot answer these basic

:22:11.:22:14.

questions, is it not confirmation that the government has amended

:22:15.:22:19.

everything but the pretense of following due process? And that the

:22:20.:22:21.

Prime Minister broke this promise because he is avoiding a by election

:22:22.:22:26.

in Richmond ahead of the national interest? Hear, hear!

:22:27.:22:31.

Turning to another issue raised by a statement, the government has always

:22:32.:22:34.

said that the subcommittees recommendations will be subject to a

:22:35.:22:38.

full Cabinet discussion. Has that discussion taking place? Or have his

:22:39.:22:41.

colleagues been left as much in the dark as the rest of the House?

:22:42.:22:47.

Finally, what steps is he now taking to address the plight and

:22:48.:22:51.

uncertainty that this lake politically motivated delay will

:22:52.:22:57.

cause? Hear, hear! Mr Speaker, I find it rather hard to

:22:58.:23:01.

except from the honourable lady that somehow we are taking too long with

:23:02.:23:07.

this matter. Perhaps I would like to go for a little bit of the history.

:23:08.:23:13.

In 2001, Labour ministers reported to be seriously considering building

:23:14.:23:15.

a third runway. LAUGHTER At Heathrow. To relieve the

:23:16.:23:20.

increasing congested in London. In December 2003, the then transport

:23:21.:23:25.

Secretary publishes a white paper pulling for a third runway in a six

:23:26.:23:29.

Tom Reynolds at Heathrow to be included within 12 years -- six

:23:30.:23:35.

runway. In 2007, a public consultation document firmly in

:23:36.:23:40.

favour of Heathrow to accommodate a new runway of 220,000 flights a

:23:41.:23:46.

year. In 2009, the government approves a third runway taking the

:23:47.:23:51.

number of flights and all by the airport from 480 house and --

:23:52.:23:57.

480,000 to more than 700,000 a year. So I don't think the party opposite

:23:58.:24:01.

complaining about the time that we are taking to come to a decision on

:24:02.:24:08.

a very thorough report is worthy. Indeed, the Leader of the Opposition

:24:09.:24:16.

seems to think so as well. Because he gave an interview on sky

:24:17.:24:20.

television last Thursday. And he was asked a question by a correspondent,

:24:21.:24:25.

I think people are a little confused at the moment about exactly what

:24:26.:24:28.

labour's policy on Heathrow specifically is. Can you clarify for

:24:29.:24:32.

us? It is the labour position? Leader of the Opposition. The

:24:33.:24:37.

position is that we put these questions on how we go ahead with

:24:38.:24:42.

airport expansion on the basis of capacity across the Southeast copy

:24:43.:24:45.

on the basis of need for a hug and of course the effects on

:24:46.:24:48.

neighbouring communities. And the environment noise. Those answers

:24:49.:24:52.

have to be given before any decision can be taken. About where expansion

:24:53.:24:56.

should be going. There we are then. A gets better. So correspondence, so

:24:57.:25:02.

at the moment you don't have a position on Heathrow specifically.

:25:03.:25:06.

Leader of the Opposition, at the moment, that is our position.

:25:07.:25:10.

LAUGHTER Was it yours? Mr Speaker, I don't

:25:11.:25:16.

think I will think too many lectures about getting the timescale right.

:25:17.:25:21.

What I said in my statement and what I stand by and the statement is so

:25:22.:25:29.

Howard said that there needs to be a conclusion on the runway available

:25:30.:25:33.

for operation by 2013. Even on the timetable I've announced today that

:25:34.:25:37.

is well within possibilities of the programme that we are talking

:25:38.:25:42.

specifically, in right demand light of the 2008 planning act, which is

:25:43.:25:50.

was of course has by the last labour government -- in light of the 2008

:25:51.:25:54.

planning act. The previous commission led by Lord Justice

:25:55.:25:58.

Roscoe, his recommendation was not accepted by the government of the

:25:59.:26:02.

day. Is it not right to take time to consider two aspects. One is the

:26:03.:26:08.

very weak section of the environmental aspect of developing

:26:09.:26:13.

Heathrow. But also to address the fundamental contradiction that if it

:26:14.:26:19.

is right to have a hub airport in London, Paris runways simply doesn't

:26:20.:26:20.

suffice? I am grateful to my Honorable friend

:26:21.:26:30.

who has covered this issue for a lot longer than anybody else in the

:26:31.:26:34.

house. The points he makes are valid points which we need to address.

:26:35.:26:39.

There are no doubts about the capacity to what is happening as far

:26:40.:26:44.

as aviation and airport and aircraft movements are concerned. It is

:26:45.:26:48.

something that I am incredibly grateful, not only to Davis, but to

:26:49.:26:51.

the rest of the commission for the work that they have done in

:26:52.:26:55.

producing a valuable report on which he will be able to come to

:26:56.:27:03.

conclusions in due course. Can I think the Secretary of State for the

:27:04.:27:09.

early sight of his statement? In Scotland 90% of international

:27:10.:27:13.

visitors travel by air, a third of those come through Heathrow has a

:27:14.:27:19.

hub. Salmon, shelve this, and whiskey are vital to the economy in.

:27:20.:27:28.

-- shellfish. The UK government have known all of long all of the

:27:29.:27:34.

environmental issues, they could have chosen Heathrow, Gatwick or

:27:35.:27:37.

something new. All with environmental conditions. They could

:27:38.:27:43.

have chosen nothing at all, indecision stops everybody from

:27:44.:27:46.

action. It keeps people and communities, it is not just in

:27:47.:27:51.

Scotland, it is not just me saying this. Let me quote the Minister of

:27:52.:27:58.

State from June 2015. He said, "We cannot afford to stall on making a

:27:59.:28:05.

position any longer, travel industry when driving indicates a thriving

:28:06.:28:10.

economy. They must support the growth of the travel industry. " as

:28:11.:28:15.

the Prime Minister of the head of the government has made clear, by

:28:16.:28:22.

the end of this year, 2015, and D the Secretary of State in October

:28:23.:28:26.

2012, when he said, he will be able to make recommendations in 2013.

:28:27.:28:34.

Some people say it will take a long time, it will not take that long,

:28:35.:28:39.

once they get under way. As he said to the conservative party, in

:28:40.:28:46.

October 2012 in his speech, there is another area where we have to help

:28:47.:28:53.

businesses as well. That the will be to compete internationally. The

:28:54.:28:56.

runways are filling up at the Jets are circling our skies. That it's

:28:57.:29:01.

hitting our prosperity, it is bad for the environment, it is putting

:29:02.:29:05.

off investors and costing jobs. It is holding Britain back. This piece

:29:06.:29:12.

to the conservative party conference, I do not have the

:29:13.:29:20.

talents met a deputy speaker. The Prime Minister has told this house

:29:21.:29:25.

that we will have it this implies. Let me ask this. Hear, Hear order!

:29:26.:29:44.

Order! The Secretary of State. I was taken, I'd thought the Honorable

:29:45.:29:48.

member was still in his various announcement. One of the things that

:29:49.:29:54.

my Honorable friend has just said, he was in a holding position, one of

:29:55.:29:58.

the things that he did not tell us was which scheme he supports, or

:29:59.:30:04.

indeed which airport he supports, he has failed to do that, what I have

:30:05.:30:08.

said is that it is right, this is a very big issue, it has with the

:30:09.:30:15.

government for many will years. We do want to do further work on some

:30:16.:30:19.

of the environmental impacts, bearing in mind of recent

:30:20.:30:22.

developments which have happened. I would have thought that, the house

:30:23.:30:26.

would have accepted at that bearing in mind that on the 26th of

:30:27.:30:31.

November, there was a committee report from the environment which

:30:32.:30:34.

was just looked into. Saying that we should take a fresh look at certain

:30:35.:30:38.

issues, that is what we will do. Before we come to a position in the

:30:39.:30:45.

summer. What my right honourable friend except, that there is a need

:30:46.:30:51.

to reach a decision, on our airport expansion, but that should not be

:30:52.:30:56.

done at the expense of environmental considerations. We have to get it

:30:57.:31:05.

right, as he said, Sir David has accepted since he published his

:31:06.:31:10.

report, the issue of air quality has moved on. Those changes must be

:31:11.:31:14.

examined to make sure that we take edifice of that is like for like. I

:31:15.:31:25.

certainly agree and thank my right honourable friend who took a great

:31:26.:31:28.

deal of interest in this particular issue when he was in the department,

:31:29.:31:33.

he is absolutely right. We have moved significantly further than

:31:34.:31:37.

what has been with the been the case. Not only that, excepting the

:31:38.:31:49.

recommendations which have been put forward, I think that enables us to

:31:50.:31:53.

look at some of the issues which come about as a result. Says the

:31:54.:32:01.

report was published but also from other applications that will affect

:32:02.:32:07.

communities. And what implications we can put in for those affected to

:32:08.:32:10.

make this a more acceptable position in the longer term. Luke over two

:32:11.:32:19.

years ago, the transport select committee supported the expansion of

:32:20.:32:22.

capacity, in the national economic interest. Back Heathrow with

:32:23.:32:29.

environmental safeguards, the Davids commission which was supported six

:32:30.:32:32.

months ago came to very similar conclusions. It appears that the

:32:33.:32:36.

government has done no work or very little work since that time, we are

:32:37.:32:42.

now six months on, according to the CPI, the UK economy is losing out.

:32:43.:32:47.

We are losing out about ?1 billion a year because of the lack of

:32:48.:32:50.

long-haul capacity. Will be a position ever be taken? I think in

:32:51.:33:00.

fairness to the Honorable Lady, she was part of every government affairs

:33:01.:33:04.

for many years to make edifice and as far as where the extra capacity

:33:05.:33:07.

was concerned. The point I would make the Honorable Lady is this, it

:33:08.:33:13.

is important that we have the new capacity up and available by 2030.

:33:14.:33:18.

What I have talked about today is still within that timetable, having

:33:19.:33:24.

that capacity available by 2030. I think, taking a little longer,

:33:25.:33:28.

actually some of the work that we will be embarking on, some of the

:33:29.:33:31.

work on air quality has not been done. We have maybe slow the process

:33:32.:33:39.

down rather than we that of. -- speed it up. The Labour Party may

:33:40.:33:47.

not have done is completely irrelevant. It has no interest to

:33:48.:33:57.

us. What he agree that this position not to make a division is truly...

:33:58.:34:04.

It is absolutely no way to run what he is calling a world-class

:34:05.:34:09.

transport system to support a world-class economy. Can he tell me

:34:10.:34:14.

exactly, wife and the day commission reported absolutely clearly to what

:34:15.:34:19.

their preferred position was without any prevarication, would he tell me

:34:20.:34:26.

what was the point of it? A number of what's, I am sorry that my right

:34:27.:34:30.

honourable friend of mine think that the situation is a fact of no action

:34:31.:34:35.

from a previous government, previously irrelevant. I do not

:34:36.:34:41.

accept that. The simple fact is, I think what the David's commission

:34:42.:34:46.

has done, is identified a report that extra capacity is needed. There

:34:47.:34:51.

are options that can be considered and we are right to consider those

:34:52.:34:55.

three options. I hope very much, that by the summer, we will be able

:34:56.:35:08.

to favour that. The Secretary of State knows I hold him in high

:35:09.:35:13.

regard even when I heckle him. But it took them a few months to get

:35:14.:35:18.

past the global Democrats and red light for the increase, it took the

:35:19.:35:23.

David's commission three years to get beyond the commission and about

:35:24.:35:29.

another six months to avoid having a statement until today, lie doesn't

:35:30.:35:32.

the Secretary of State just admit that this is a political fix to get

:35:33.:35:37.

us past another election and London, and own up giving his own activity

:35:38.:35:41.

in honesty that the has nothing to do with the national interest. I

:35:42.:35:50.

don't mind the occasional hackle from the Honorable member, by now

:35:51.:35:55.

I'm quite used to it. What I would say is that when he says of it is

:35:56.:36:00.

just a fixed path the mayoral election, if it had been a fix to

:36:01.:36:04.

get past the election, we would have said that when David was published

:36:05.:36:10.

that we weren't going to respond for 12 month. My Honorable friend has

:36:11.:36:15.

always been perfectly clear and where he stands on this particular

:36:16.:36:21.

matter. Like the Honorable member, when he was a minister of state

:36:22.:36:26.

attending cabinet in 2009, said that he was firmly in favour of Heathrow.

:36:27.:36:35.

My right honourable friend has held office since the commission received

:36:36.:36:41.

its own destruction. -- instructions. And they will know

:36:42.:36:45.

that the commission urges the government to make an early decision

:36:46.:36:48.

on its recommendations, further delay will be increasingly costly

:36:49.:36:53.

and will be seen, nationally and internationally as a sign that the

:36:54.:36:56.

United Kingdom is unwilling or unable to take the steps needed to

:36:57.:37:00.

maintain its position as a well-connected open trading economy

:37:01.:37:06.

in the 21st century. I know that my Honorable friend is a decent and

:37:07.:37:11.

loyalty player, and is loyally preventing the team position today.

:37:12.:37:17.

Does he understand, that when the conservative team imitates the

:37:18.:37:20.

Labour candidate for Mayor of London, by putting personal and

:37:21.:37:24.

party interests ahead of the national interest, we all lose. I

:37:25.:37:33.

say to my Honorable friend, who is a distinguished chairman of a select

:37:34.:37:38.

committee, I always expect his select committee to listen to with

:37:39.:37:41.

the respect at eight select committee should be listened to. I

:37:42.:37:47.

would refer him to the environmental committees recommendations where it

:37:48.:37:49.

is recommended that the government takes more time to address the on

:37:50.:37:54.

air quality. On a quality, the government needs to re-examine the

:37:55.:37:59.

commissions findings in light of his finalised air quality strategy. This

:38:00.:38:04.

is a report that was published on the 26th of November. I point out

:38:05.:38:08.

that today is the 14th of December. Even with the best in the world, it

:38:09.:38:15.

would be impossible to a, expect and respond to what it has said. I say

:38:16.:38:23.

to my Honorable friend, I am giving another select committee the kind of

:38:24.:38:28.

respect that he would expect for his own select committee. The government

:38:29.:38:40.

has made a mess of this. It does not come well with other decision. The

:38:41.:38:49.

government is completely... What reassurances can they give that they

:38:50.:38:58.

will be able to take those long-term decisions for competitiveness of our

:38:59.:39:03.

nation and will not be defrauded by short-term considerations? The

:39:04.:39:08.

national infrastructure committee will be subject to the decisions

:39:09.:39:16.

that this house takes. If that was even the case, and the way that the

:39:17.:39:20.

national infrastructure committee set up by the labor opposition if he

:39:21.:39:28.

succeeded in the general election. I think the truth is that the

:39:29.:39:31.

Honorable member is right and that these are big issue. Setting up the

:39:32.:39:38.

issue is vague way forward It will still be for this house, and for the

:39:39.:39:43.

government to make sure that it is abiding by other legal requirement

:39:44.:39:48.

such as air quality and other issues that we have to take into account

:39:49.:39:54.

the making the position. May I commend the Secretary of State for

:39:55.:39:58.

his statement, may I also applaud the government for putting

:39:59.:40:01.

environmental impact as an important issue, as part of that work, will

:40:02.:40:07.

the government also investigate, current noise and air pollution

:40:08.:40:11.

problems, with two runways at Heathrow? I understand the

:40:12.:40:20.

conditions faced by my Honorable friend constituents, I did mention

:40:21.:40:24.

noise, I hope I mentioned noise and my statement as one of the

:40:25.:40:27.

considerations that we have got to get right, but also with the

:40:28.:40:30.

advances of technology as well. The planes are becoming quieter. She is

:40:31.:40:37.

right and she represents the constituency very closely affected

:40:38.:40:40.

by this, it has to be done by looking at the mitigation measures

:40:41.:40:44.

which will be put in place by any of the three scheme promoters. The

:40:45.:40:50.

Secretary of State is an honourable puzzlement, he is my constituent. --

:40:51.:41:01.

honourable gentleman. Can I ask him, he talks about the best possible

:41:02.:41:05.

outcome for local residents, would he accept that my constituents may

:41:06.:41:11.

be considered as local residents for Heathrow but it is important that

:41:12.:41:14.

they are taken into consideration because they live under a

:41:15.:41:16.

early-morning noise pollution which is shopping. And asked runway will

:41:17.:41:25.

make that much worse. -- an extra runway. We are made put an end to my

:41:26.:41:36.

flight back to referred to. B are things that have to be taken into an

:41:37.:41:41.

account. I don't exercise my vote there. Either the government has

:41:42.:41:54.

decided to go ahead with Heathrow expansion but delaying the

:41:55.:41:59.

announcement to avoid embarrassing it... Or it needs more time. Is it

:42:00.:42:12.

worth to told today that is a cowardly and pathetic way to make

:42:13.:42:19.

this an issue? Here is some who has taken a view on the position before

:42:20.:42:23.

the government has made the decision. That is typical what he

:42:24.:42:27.

does. I have an opal with the house as to their reason for the extra

:42:28.:42:31.

work that needs to be done. There are people who have been incredibly

:42:32.:42:34.

consistent on this matter, there are people on the other side of the

:42:35.:42:36.

house that have been less consistent. As I went to the whole

:42:37.:42:44.

programme, of where we actually got to, as far as the times tables are

:42:45.:42:51.

concerned, I think it has been wasting time. Does my Honorable

:42:52.:43:01.

friend understand the dismay and the frustration in the Southwest as a

:43:02.:43:06.

result of this latest delay. Our infrastructure comes to the west of

:43:07.:43:10.

London, he himself has been responsible for a massive rail

:43:11.:43:15.

investment. Since his letters to label impact investment in our

:43:16.:43:21.

region, what confidence can we have that the decision will be arrived at

:43:22.:43:24.

next summer because this is not a London issue than the national

:43:25.:43:30.

issues. I agree that this is a national issue, I am grateful to

:43:31.:43:35.

him, for pointing out the amount of infrastructure investment that this

:43:36.:43:38.

government can point out. The fact that we are increasing investment in

:43:39.:43:44.

infrastructure by 50% in this Parliament, so that I am proud of.

:43:45.:43:48.

When my Honorable friend comes to say that this delay will not allow

:43:49.:43:52.

us to meet what the commission report says, I disagree with him.

:43:53.:43:56.

Even the will with what I'm saying, which is a decision by the summer of

:43:57.:44:00.

next year, we will be in a position to need the time table of extra

:44:01.:44:07.

capacity by 2030, which is when they said it is physically needed by. --

:44:08.:44:19.

desperately. It puts the political career of the Taliban member for

:44:20.:44:28.

Richmond Park -- Honorable member. He cannot even be in this place, he

:44:29.:44:33.

was not in his place at the beginning. Can I say to the

:44:34.:44:46.

Secretary of State, I do not believe, perhaps he can tell, that

:44:47.:44:52.

there are any new or later and environmental considerations, that

:44:53.:44:55.

weren't known, or have not been known to the government over the

:44:56.:45:01.

last ten years or so? Well, I am very much regretting the position

:45:02.:45:06.

which the Honorable member takes, he served on the transport select

:45:07.:45:10.

committee for a long time. My Honorable friend for Richmond

:45:11.:45:14.

position on the expansion of Heathrow has always been perfectly

:45:15.:45:17.

clear. I don't think anybody can be in any doubt. His presence and the

:45:18.:45:25.

chamber is more that can be said for the right Honorable member for two

:45:26.:45:32.

things. Which I pointed out and said that in 2009 in the evening standard

:45:33.:45:37.

that he was in favour of Heathrow expansion, he was a transport

:45:38.:45:42.

minister attending cabinet. My Honorable friend has always been

:45:43.:45:46.

very specific on where he stands on this particular issue. I think his

:45:47.:45:55.

question was unworthy. My right on over friend is right to nail down

:45:56.:46:03.

environmental issues for. With that said, last week, the chief executive

:46:04.:46:11.

of Heathrow Airport indicated that Heathrow is full for flight

:46:12.:46:18.

purposes. We are now losing business to Dubai, and Frankfurt. We have to

:46:19.:46:23.

take some action now. It will be 15 years before there will be any

:46:24.:46:27.

wheels on new comment anywhere in the southeast. Will my right

:46:28.:46:31.

honourable friend do his utmost to get the other airport open again to

:46:32.:46:36.

relieve the pressure on Heathrow and paper to forward. -- Britain. My

:46:37.:46:44.

Honorable friend has been leading his campaign and never misses an

:46:45.:46:47.

opportunity to mention the Manchester Airport. The point he

:46:48.:47:01.

makes, however about what they said on the today programme last Friday,

:47:02.:47:06.

he was talking about the capacity at the moment flying from Heathrow

:47:07.:47:10.

Airport and the people using the planes which are currently flying

:47:11.:47:15.

out, for the movement of freight. What he is talking about is stepping

:47:16.:47:20.

up a completely new operation. I wish him well in his campaign. I

:47:21.:47:32.

believe that the delay is not from political experience these. The

:47:33.:47:38.

Secretary of State from transport has recognised that I have known, is

:47:39.:47:44.

the expansion of Heathrow is too difficult. Mattern Dep to Speaker, I

:47:45.:47:54.

would the Secretary of State to address the business case for which

:47:55.:48:01.

the Airport commission has had some differences among each other. I

:48:02.:48:06.

would like him to address the ground security risk and crash risk. And

:48:07.:48:13.

that they are properly assessed. They are not in the Airport

:48:14.:48:18.

commission report. I would ask that he forced London, Heathrow Airport

:48:19.:48:23.

to declare where the fly-past will be. And also the differences between

:48:24.:48:30.

the airport commission is recommending and what the Heathrow

:48:31.:48:35.

Airport is prepared to accept. I think I may need an adjournment

:48:36.:48:39.

debate to answer those questions. Those are points which the Airport

:48:40.:48:43.

commission has looked at in detail. Love the questions she has asked I

:48:44.:48:48.

have said. Extra work is being done on that. That is the right thing to

:48:49.:48:55.

do. As one who publicly supported an increase of the movement in my

:48:56.:49:00.

constituency, may have my right honourable friend, to confirm to the

:49:01.:49:06.

house and that the government is not ruling out additional capacity, at

:49:07.:49:18.

the Gatwick and Heathrow. Could he tell us if he thinks that the

:49:19.:49:23.

Heathrow hub proposal would be far less destructive and stands a better

:49:24.:49:31.

chance than it previously did? I think, I have said, and will say to

:49:32.:49:35.

my Honorable friend that all three options are options which are under

:49:36.:49:41.

consideration, that is a third runway at Heathrow, or a second

:49:42.:49:45.

runway at Gatwick. That is a position and it remains a position.

:49:46.:49:50.

My Honorable friend who is a keen aviator himself will know that some

:49:51.:49:53.

of the difficulties, which are a phase and have to be addressed. That

:49:54.:50:02.

is the right thing to do. I admire the Secretary of State explaining

:50:03.:50:05.

that the Prime Minister has decided to be indecisive, can he explain

:50:06.:50:12.

why, if he is so keen to give further consideration to the

:50:13.:50:17.

environmental considerations of air pollution, his government has been

:50:18.:50:22.

so heavily in the European commission, lobbying. They have

:50:23.:50:31.

whole is that we have been indecisive, he was a member of a

:50:32.:50:35.

government who can make the official whatsoever on this particular

:50:36.:50:38.

matter, the whole question of where we stand on various issues within

:50:39.:50:43.

the European commission and the European Parliament, on matters of a

:50:44.:50:48.

whole issues and not necessarily one individual or small items. My right

:50:49.:50:57.

honourable friend that justifies his delay by saying quite rightly that

:50:58.:51:02.

he wants to get this position right. It just occurs to me that if we had

:51:03.:51:07.

done so with a test to, it could have been cheaper and less damaging.

:51:08.:51:17.

That does not need a reply. I think I should give Rogers for record. --

:51:18.:51:24.

I think I should give one just for the record. The route has gone

:51:25.:51:29.

through considerable improvement for HS two.

:51:30.:51:41.

Something straight from the Minister. What do we want, Airport

:51:42.:51:48.

expansion, when do at the appropriate juncture, and the good

:51:49.:51:54.

time, after reports and a cost of millions of pounds of the taxpayers

:51:55.:51:59.

off for a by election in Richmond Park. Is used to be indecisive but

:52:00.:52:04.

now he is not so sure. Will the government get on with it. Met him

:52:05.:52:14.

Speaker, I am still waiting to hear, it may be just a simple easy answer

:52:15.:52:19.

what the SMP's position is on this matter. Whiskey and do they support?

:52:20.:52:24.

They are silent on its. They want everybody else to give their answer

:52:25.:52:28.

of once a decision is made of a wide packet and say that they would go a

:52:29.:52:31.

different product because that seems to be the only point of the SMP in

:52:32.:52:36.

this chamber. Wait for this is to be made and then attack a. No wonder

:52:37.:52:39.

there is such a difficult position today. At the affects of a hub

:52:40.:52:47.

airport in the Vatican and the strengths to other parts. Those who

:52:48.:52:55.

wish to travel transatlantic and get seeds cannot because the first fight

:52:56.:53:01.

is around midday. The capacity is vital to the economy. I want to

:53:02.:53:05.

place on the record, that I believe that the options before us are the

:53:06.:53:14.

wrong option. Take this opportunity to look again the. Before I call the

:53:15.:53:23.

Secretary of State, we are asking questions not making statements,

:53:24.:53:26.

those questions should be a lot shorter. The Secretary of State. I

:53:27.:53:33.

hear what my Honorable friend says, but the cause for most people, I

:53:34.:53:47.

think it may take longer. Ivo Madam Deputy Speaker, given the high risk

:53:48.:53:52.

that the Secretary of State has announced today, it does not bring

:53:53.:53:59.

the Heathrow claim any closer. Why does the Secretary of State not

:54:00.:54:09.

revert to the Gatwick option, it will be ready Ray before 2030. And

:54:10.:54:15.

will allow Birmingham to complement Gatwick. Well, I did say in my

:54:16.:54:22.

statement of the importance of other airport in the United Kingdom. I

:54:23.:54:25.

haven't seen them grow and the more services being offered from both

:54:26.:54:33.

services. -- have seen. Birmingham, Manchester, Newcastle, and others I

:54:34.:54:46.

think the point is well made. Services from other airports are

:54:47.:54:54.

also very important indeed. The Secretary of State said that the

:54:55.:54:57.

government accept the case for expansion but that is why they set

:54:58.:55:00.

up the commission and the first phase, so it did not need three

:55:01.:55:03.

years to tell the government that. He goes on to say that the

:55:04.:55:09.

government accept the short list of option. He present the cases as

:55:10.:55:13.

though there are three equally short list of options by the Airport

:55:14.:55:18.

commission, is it not the case that the Airport commission made an

:55:19.:55:22.

unequivocal recommendation. Said the government not be open about that?

:55:23.:55:29.

Is he aware that last week the chief executive was expressing concerns

:55:30.:55:32.

about the cost of Heathrow said, there is no case for expanding

:55:33.:55:37.

Gatwick, very few airline support the proposal and no one would move

:55:38.:55:41.

so why Heathrow remains open. I think my Honorable friend could have

:55:42.:55:54.

some other quotes from Mr Wass. If we are going to the games of just

:55:55.:55:57.

quoting from a Willie Walsh I think we will find that there are many

:55:58.:56:00.

quotes that we can have on this particular subject. What I think is

:56:01.:56:06.

correct, is for the government to look in light of the environmental

:56:07.:56:09.

work that we are going to be doing in light of the mitigation, all

:56:10.:56:14.

three options, and then come to the house once we have divided on which

:56:15.:56:16.

of the By the way he has responded to

:56:17.:56:27.

questions here. Making it an issue of party ping-pong and hold us

:56:28.:56:30.

responsible for what the light. Let's be absolutely clear. I welcome

:56:31.:56:38.

his remarks about air quality which is very important for Heathrow. But

:56:39.:56:41.

he has heard me speak about the fact that there are more European

:56:42.:56:47.

headquarters for multinational companies that in Scotland, Wales,

:56:48.:56:51.

Northern Ireland put together. What research has he done on how view of

:56:52.:56:56.

such companies will remain in the UK in the UK as a result of the delays

:56:57.:57:02.

which are going on about this decision? I'm sorry that she was so

:57:03.:57:08.

disappointed with the way I respond to. I respond and partly to the

:57:09.:57:12.

labor front bench attacked the indecision is that the government

:57:13.:57:16.

was making. I realised the honourable lady has presented a

:57:17.:57:22.

petition to support the expression of Heathrow Airport. But this is a

:57:23.:57:26.

thing something which does the black colleagues and parties. Advocate a

:57:27.:57:31.

front for the government to measure the proper environment work is done

:57:32.:57:39.

before any move forward is taken. I have to observe that the government

:57:40.:57:43.

has a seven to have rather of the in regards to this issue. But at least

:57:44.:57:49.

they have might friend's to dig them out of such a whole. Can my friend

:57:50.:57:52.

assured me that this decision will be taking and that decision will

:57:53.:57:59.

favour the Davis commission, which had a clear recommendation to build

:58:00.:58:08.

a runway at Heathrow? The Shadow Chancellor said to say stop digging.

:58:09.:58:12.

He should learn lessons from his own bench. Can I say to my friend as far

:58:13.:58:27.

as the point that he makes, the important part of the Davis

:58:28.:58:31.

commission was too after capacity in place by 2030. I believe given what

:58:32.:58:36.

I have said the date we are on schedule to be able to deliver. To

:58:37.:58:48.

indicate my frustration at somebody who supports the expansion of

:58:49.:58:54.

Heathrow and the progress has been cut up an internal conservative

:58:55.:58:57.

holding pattern, but the Secretary of State has now three occasions

:58:58.:59:00.

this evening reiterated the commitment to the 2030 time scale.

:59:01.:59:05.

Cannot ask him to assure us in this house that is six months' time, that

:59:06.:59:09.

decision will be taking for the diamond Road? I hope to come back

:59:10.:59:17.

the House in the summer. I am not going to say exactly where that

:59:18.:59:20.

leads us as far as today's date is concerned, but I think that the

:59:21.:59:25.

Honorable member says, and I fully accept the point, the whole point

:59:26.:59:30.

about services to Northern Ireland is incredibly important. Northern

:59:31.:59:37.

Ireland is already well-connected to London, there are around the 17th

:59:38.:59:40.

out of place between Belfast and London in 2014, and of these around

:59:41.:59:46.

6000 were to Heathrow. I do not underestimate the importance to

:59:47.:59:50.

another island and to Scotland as far as connectivity and connections

:59:51.:59:53.

and to are concerned. -- Northern Ireland. That the decision on the

:59:54.:00:02.

due room rate is met on the mission of environmental data that has

:00:03.:00:04.

nothing to be robust, that will simply lead to delays and legal

:00:05.:00:10.

challenges for longer than would happen if decision proceeded

:00:11.:00:15.

straightaway. London Gatwick have a pretty brief me on the concerns

:00:16.:00:18.

about the quality of the Davis commission data. Love my friend

:00:19.:00:24.

ensure that the neck two months will ensure that people look at all the

:00:25.:00:28.

data that habit as robust as possible so that for the decision is

:00:29.:00:30.

made, it can be enacted straightaway? He is absolutely

:00:31.:00:37.

right. If there are any lessons learned from the preparations of

:00:38.:00:42.

HS2, is to make sure that all process go through diligently and

:00:43.:00:48.

properly. There are a number of efforts to get judicial reviews as

:00:49.:00:52.

far as HS2 was concerned. And nearly all of them fell. The Secretariat

:00:53.:01:01.

they have come to the house today to hoodwink us and thinking that he is

:01:02.:01:05.

the most incompetent and indecisive Minister Secretary of State that has

:01:06.:01:09.

ever been. But no one is told by his attempt to take airheads on behalf

:01:10.:01:12.

of the Honorable member for Richmond Park. This is a fixed for next

:01:13.:01:17.

years's mayoral election and nothing else. And nothing in the national

:01:18.:01:31.

interest. I'll go do it again. The Shadow Chancellor has just said that

:01:32.:01:36.

with a compliment. I think I would say to the Honorable member, and he

:01:37.:01:39.

has been here for all the exchanges, is that it's not my friend for

:01:40.:01:44.

Richmond less changed his position on but that he Heathrow should be

:01:45.:01:48.

are not. And that's a good member from from to think, who was one he

:01:49.:01:54.

was a chessboard minister, support that Heathrow is that it he was

:01:55.:01:57.

firmly in favour of Heathrow 's expression. As far as the Merrill

:01:58.:02:05.

elections, if we have wanted to put off until after the barrel election,

:02:06.:02:09.

we have simply has said that we were not going to have a decision on this

:02:10.:02:15.

for 12 months. The very fact that we are making progress is important,

:02:16.:02:20.

but by 2030 and that is what we should do. No matter how skillfully

:02:21.:02:27.

the Secretariat they tried to pretend otherwise, we all know that

:02:28.:02:34.

announcements is all about trying to get the Conservative Party and the

:02:35.:02:40.

Member for Richmond Park over next May in that particular line. Is no

:02:41.:02:46.

way for government to make decisions and make announcements. The

:02:47.:02:49.

government talked about the Northern powerhouse as it, which am sure

:02:50.:02:56.

that. He must know that expecting Heathrow is essential for the

:02:57.:02:59.

northern powerhouse, so will he please act in the national interest,

:03:00.:03:04.

rather than just making at a announcement to benefit London and

:03:05.:03:11.

are excellent mayoral candidates? I am very glad that my friend is shown

:03:12.:03:17.

support to the northern powerhouse. Into something that is important to

:03:18.:03:20.

me as very important to the government as well. We are back and

:03:21.:03:23.

that with huge amounts of investment as far as lead electrification and

:03:24.:03:29.

new trade services, two new franchises which were announced last

:03:30.:03:33.

week will allow a very beneficial effect as far as transport

:03:34.:03:35.

connectivity between our major cities in the north. That is vitally

:03:36.:03:41.

important, as is getting the whole question right about future aviation

:03:42.:03:47.

capacity. A pathetic way to make decisions about infrastructure in

:03:48.:03:54.

our country. Doesn't be Secretary of State just feel shamefaced about

:03:55.:04:00.

this mother subjugating painful example of political

:04:01.:04:02.

procrastination, despite the obvious national interest to get on with it

:04:03.:04:07.

at Heathrow. On a scale of one to ten, how does how embarrassed it the

:04:08.:04:15.

Secretary of State? Political procrastination, Mr Speaker. 2001,

:04:16.:04:21.

Labour ministers are reported to be seriously considering a third

:04:22.:04:27.

runway. 2003, the Transport Secretary publishes a wide paper.

:04:28.:04:33.

2007, the government publishes a public consultation document for

:04:34.:04:37.

expecting Heathrow Airport. 2009, the government approves a third

:04:38.:04:40.

runway at taking the number of flights have culled from the airport

:04:41.:04:45.

from 480,000 to more than 700,000. I will take no lectures on deck and

:04:46.:04:51.

big issues, but that the docking of the big issues was done when he was

:04:52.:04:53.

a member of the last labor government. -- docking. I'm pleased

:04:54.:05:01.

to Secretary of State recognises the importance of original airports,

:05:02.:05:06.

will walk more and more capacity is developed in the Southeast. Can't my

:05:07.:05:12.

friend say what he is doing to encourage more airlines to fly on

:05:13.:05:20.

more routes from Manchester Airport? I think he is right. When we talked

:05:21.:05:26.

about Manchester, I also talked about Birmingham, Newcastle,

:05:27.:05:29.

Edinburgh and Glasgow. I think it is essential to try and get more

:05:30.:05:32.

connectivity for airports so that people do not necessarily have to

:05:33.:05:37.

travelled to London -- Heathrow or Gatwick to get the flash that the

:05:38.:05:40.

one. I think it is important and the. -- flights. I like the

:05:41.:05:49.

Secretariat, so I feel for him. -- Secretary. The more he tries to act

:05:50.:05:53.

as a result, the more effectively becomes. To help him, and I suggest

:05:54.:06:00.

that he take the opportunity to abandon environment to plans, budget

:06:01.:06:08.

instead to improve server and accessed to other airports to get

:06:09.:06:11.

better use of spare capacity there. And secondly that he delivers on HS2

:06:12.:06:16.

so that we can see far more people travelling by rail instead of taking

:06:17.:06:27.

short flights. Pundits remind him that the Davis commission will set

:06:28.:06:32.

up by the Coalition Government to make the case and examine the case

:06:33.:06:35.

fully to what we should do for the future. I was proud of server in the

:06:36.:06:41.

Coalition Government, I was proud of a lot of things that it achieved.

:06:42.:06:44.

The Davis commission setting that was just one of them and I have

:06:45.:06:47.

wanted us to back away from the difficult questions which oppose us

:06:48.:06:49.

to back away from the difficult questions which oppose this was.

:06:50.:06:54.

That she opposes to us. Can he confirm to me that the independent

:06:55.:07:00.

and impartial airports commission clearly stated that Heathrow was the

:07:01.:07:06.

best option and that if the government and the future decides

:07:07.:07:11.

against that it wishes to expand and guess what, I get guarantees that

:07:12.:07:16.

they should never that will be required in housing, hide ways, and

:07:17.:07:21.

a broad network, and health care and all other public services will be

:07:22.:07:27.

forthcoming? There is already significant commitments as far as

:07:28.:07:31.

Gatwick and improving the infrastructure to Gatwick that

:07:32.:07:37.

already taking place. For Douglas Camp will be coming on board over

:07:38.:07:40.

the next few gears. So it is important that we get the access to

:07:41.:07:45.

our airports correct, that is something which we are dealing with

:07:46.:07:51.

over a period of time. If the decision should go towards deadwood,

:07:52.:07:55.

would there be other consequences? That is the case in almost all the

:07:56.:07:58.

options that we choose. Of course we want to look at those issues which

:07:59.:08:06.

are the ones we want take forward. And I said to the government, while

:08:07.:08:11.

our development some capacity for hot air balloons in the process of

:08:12.:08:15.

trying to get, or mining, rather than just talking about this issue,

:08:16.:08:22.

Birmingham has turned up capacity and a bread to find ways to do with

:08:23.:08:26.

current issues about rather than waiting for it. I concur in which

:08:27.:08:35.

Birmingham has gone about. At the expense of both of the runway and

:08:36.:08:41.

the airport. A broad thing HS2 will have a very important impact for

:08:42.:08:44.

Birmingham airports as well. I agree with him. The secretary as they give

:08:45.:08:54.

us an assurance that there will be a decision and the summer, because my

:08:55.:08:59.

constituents asked whether this thing will actually be decided upon

:09:00.:09:06.

or not. About said to the house, a bigot is very important that we

:09:07.:09:09.

stick to the timetable of Sir Howard's report. That is as ours

:09:10.:09:15.

have a capacity available by 2030. Hubble will to follow the timetable.

:09:16.:09:25.

-- I will want to. And the Secretary of State clearly state what

:09:26.:09:29.

additional works have been undertaken to refine every SSD air

:09:30.:09:33.

quality, and doors? Who is going to do that and who is going to assess

:09:34.:09:41.

it? Can I ask of a Scotsman, can his mind... And I would point out that

:09:42.:09:50.

not once did he ever states what summer, what gear you're going to

:09:51.:10:02.

started? To try and reassure the gentlemen, there is yet another

:10:03.:10:05.

Scottish Nationalists who have got up not said what he supports. What I

:10:06.:10:15.

have been clear about, is that we will stick to the timetable which

:10:16.:10:18.

gives the extra capacity that is needed by 2030. I normally try to be

:10:19.:10:29.

very supportive of my friend, but I have struggled somewhat on this

:10:30.:10:34.

occasion. Can he give an absolute assurance that if further work on

:10:35.:10:39.

air quality and noise were to go against Heathrow, that the default

:10:40.:10:44.

position will be to accept Gatwick and not waste more years by setting

:10:45.:10:53.

of yet another commission? If my Honorable friend looks at my

:10:54.:10:58.

statement, I made quite clear that the government assisted three

:10:59.:11:01.

options that have been performed by the commission, are the right

:11:02.:11:07.

options as far for body -- capacity is concerned. The answer to this

:11:08.:11:12.

question is yes I do except that. I do not fully answer all the other

:11:13.:11:21.

questions from the S member. -- S Garbean there will be done by

:11:22.:11:28.

the Department for Transport. -- they were. But that we all except

:11:29.:11:35.

that the Secretary of State is right to say that this is a national

:11:36.:11:38.

infrastructure project that affects runway capacities throughout the

:11:39.:11:41.

country and aviation capacity throughout the country. And we have

:11:42.:11:46.

the opportunity, will he commit to meeting with those regional

:11:47.:11:53.

airports? He has not included East Midlands and his response so if he

:11:54.:11:56.

can squeeze that in as well, but wouldn't commit to meet those

:11:57.:12:02.

represents, should that we plot the... Will forget the extra

:12:03.:12:07.

capacity in the shop is? I did I mention every airport in the

:12:08.:12:12.

country, but I did try to -- did not. I did talk about Manchester,

:12:13.:12:22.

Newcastle, Edinburgh, Birmingham. Glasgow to. I did not mention East

:12:23.:12:26.

Midlands, which is just down the road from where I am, but when I

:12:27.:12:31.

like to see what services from them? The answer is yes. -- what I like. I

:12:32.:12:39.

welcomed the decision to delay the statement. Are collies are in

:12:40.:12:48.

negotiations with the child was coming into Heathrow over the

:12:49.:12:52.

valley. What he agreed with me that the resolution of these issues is

:12:53.:12:55.

crucial to our future support that Heathrow? Sunday my Honorable friend

:12:56.:13:03.

that's a good point about the fact that aviation, capacity does not

:13:04.:13:08.

necessarily a threat the areas that are not most of all. To have a wider

:13:09.:13:12.

impact around the rest of economy and country. In light of the Paris

:13:13.:13:20.

conference to we just had a statement on, what recent

:13:21.:13:23.

discussions has he had with the Secretary of State for climate

:13:24.:13:27.

change and the committee on climate change about how important that the

:13:28.:13:31.

will affect the UK's ability to meet its reduction targets? As one of the

:13:32.:13:40.

people who served on the commission,... With did try to

:13:41.:13:47.

methods into account that Davis commission. Obviously, a system that

:13:48.:13:55.

has been for the development. The BW scandal. We should does our response

:13:56.:14:00.

on new information that will become available. -- the judge. That is

:14:01.:14:07.

something that I want to see addressed. I still believe we can't

:14:08.:14:13.

deliver on the timetable set out in the commission's report of 2030.

:14:14.:14:20.

Does he agree with me that this decision original airports, which I

:14:21.:14:27.

recently visited. -- original airports. We may even see a second

:14:28.:14:34.

runway and Brengle in the future, as well as a just the two of? -- the

:14:35.:14:42.

Birmingham. She never misses an opportunity to. Don't think I'll be

:14:43.:14:49.

promoting them at the whole thing I will disagree with her arm, is a

:14:50.:14:55.

downward work without the airports, Birmingham, Newcastle, East

:14:56.:14:57.

Midlands, Glasgow at regional airports. -- as. Cannot think of the

:14:58.:15:05.

government the government will not outsource these issues to other

:15:06.:15:10.

committees, and will not be rushed into making a decision about a

:15:11.:15:13.

planned weight that will not be operational until 2030? Can he

:15:14.:15:18.

confirm that is a third runway is to consider, it will only be considered

:15:19.:15:22.

with the three caveats that faith is placed on it in terms of a fourth

:15:23.:15:26.

runway, night flights, and meeting EQ quality limits? At whatever

:15:27.:15:34.

decision is taken, as I say there are still three options that are

:15:35.:15:40.

being discussed. We must get the best mitigation bills out for the

:15:41.:15:44.

people affected by those by possible. But the point that he said

:15:45.:15:50.

would be very important consideration for any decision which

:15:51.:15:55.

is taken. If the decision should be Heathrow, there are three options we

:15:56.:16:02.

are looking at. Consistently that the government has to position.

:16:03.:16:07.

Either we have accepted the Davis commission, subject to certain out

:16:08.:16:16.

these environmental issues. Core, we have now we have 3-D glasses, have

:16:17.:16:19.

looking at all three from scratch. Which of the two are going to go

:16:20.:16:28.

quiz yellow. We have accepted Davis as far as the fact that the reaction

:16:29.:16:37.

that we are looking for. Another Davis commission supported one in

:16:38.:16:41.

particular, but the government has had to look at all three of the

:16:42.:16:47.

options available. And hit the pins, given that we have not built a full

:16:48.:16:50.

runway in the southeast of England since 1946, -- and defenses copy of

:16:51.:16:57.

one of the Secretary of State does make the decision and summer of

:16:58.:17:02.

2016, when he comes to make the decision was made in the interest of

:17:03.:17:04.

the whole country, including the night and half would to residents of

:17:05.:17:09.

the Midlands, who he and I represent and not just the denizens of West

:17:10.:17:21.

London? I think if one looks at the record of this government, we have

:17:22.:17:25.

always acted in the national answer. We have done as far after capacity

:17:26.:17:30.

on the rower roads, and going as far but is it for concerned. But they

:17:31.:17:35.

are always controversial and it is right in this day and age that would

:17:36.:17:39.

take every measure that we can to mitigate the environment and impacts

:17:40.:17:46.

of any decisions that we make. Top prospects in the Southwest and in

:17:47.:17:50.

the rest of the country outside of the southeast would be in my view

:17:51.:17:55.

very best enhanced by an expansion at Heathrow. Plan is to be legally

:17:56.:18:01.

secure. Does my friend agreed that sometimes, it could be best to

:18:02.:18:04.

actually have a very thorough look at this and add a stitch in time in

:18:05.:18:12.

this case might save... Up in one of the things that I have learned

:18:13.:18:15.

taking through some of the bigger infrastructure projects, which I've

:18:16.:18:18.

been responsible for, it is absolutely bright incorrect to make

:18:19.:18:24.

sure all possible work and challenges that you are facing on

:18:25.:18:30.

whatever decision you take it that we can prove that we have done the

:18:31.:18:34.

right amount of work and perforation for decisions that we are going to

:18:35.:18:42.

put before the House in due course. What drives air quality is car

:18:43.:18:47.

emissions. -- the drives Heathrow has far more rapid transport,

:18:48.:18:52.

including for rail links. Gatwick has one, was the Secretary of State

:18:53.:18:56.

is aware is not the best in the country. Will he please give us an

:18:57.:19:01.

assurance that any analysis of air quality, able understand will be

:19:02.:19:07.

taken that will result in the bass interest of passengers if Gatwick

:19:08.:19:11.

were to get the option. But also for the employees required that employed

:19:12.:19:19.

a Gatwick, none of them locally. Of a bill off was that the be put

:19:20.:19:22.

forward and addressed in the work that we're going to do this over the

:19:23.:19:31.

coming months. A lot of this work has been covered by a Davis, but

:19:32.:19:36.

there is to a lot more to be done. I think my friend is right to show his

:19:37.:19:42.

concern. And to also point out that there is actually no easy or

:19:43.:19:46.

straightforward answer as far as aviation capacity is concerned, but

:19:47.:19:50.

also accepting that for this country aviation is a very important

:19:51.:19:55.

industry, which employs many, thousands of people right across the

:19:56.:20:03.

supply chain. On that basis, I hope my friend will accept my insurance

:20:04.:20:14.

is. -- assurances. I think you are in the chair when the member accused

:20:15.:20:24.

my Honorable friend, the Member for Richmond Park, who has sat quietly

:20:25.:20:28.

and respectfully throughout this exchange, not being in his place.

:20:29.:20:33.

Although my friend for Bridgeman is completely wrong on that everything

:20:34.:20:38.

could do with runways, it is extremely unfair for his

:20:39.:20:45.

constituents and his future supporters in the mayoral elections

:20:46.:20:47.

that they should think he was not here for the whole of the time. I

:20:48.:20:54.

thank the gentleman for that point of order. Also hot that it was very

:20:55.:21:01.

clear from the response from the government benches that he was here

:21:02.:21:04.

have been here throughout. I think even at the time that that point was

:21:05.:21:08.

made, and he has made it once again and is now firmly on the record.

:21:09.:21:16.

Further to the point of order. I'll would like to point out that at the

:21:17.:21:19.

point the Secretary of State started his statement, the Honorable member

:21:20.:21:23.

for Richmond Park was not in his place. That is also on the record. I

:21:24.:21:29.

was not the chair when that happened. It was with complete over

:21:30.:21:37.

that I've read in the papers disagreed allegations that a British

:21:38.:21:42.

official was present in January 2002 or am I was tortured. For the

:21:43.:21:47.

officials apprised at the Baghdad air base on the same plan of then

:21:48.:21:54.

Prime Minister. -- surprise. Such serious activation of a government

:21:55.:21:59.

being complicit in torture, not only brings... But causes great concern

:22:00.:22:03.

around the UK Government's record of upholding the Universal declaration

:22:04.:22:06.

of human rights and honouring historic values and the bride to a

:22:07.:22:11.

fair trial. I am looking forward to the government to make and are just

:22:12.:22:14.

a bit of this and call the Prime Minister to honour his word from

:22:15.:22:20.

2010 when he said the public confidence, party and parliament is

:22:21.:22:26.

right judge led inquiry. He added that is what we need to need to get

:22:27.:22:29.

to the bottom of the case, the fact that it is led by a judge will help

:22:30.:22:34.

assure that we get it done properly. I thank her for her point of order

:22:35.:22:37.

and also for the noticed that she had given the chair for the point of

:22:38.:22:41.

order. Not a method for the chair, but as you can see a Foreign Office

:22:42.:22:45.

minister is off the bench and will have heard what she has said that

:22:46.:22:49.

I'm sure will respond in due course. There are no more points of order,

:22:50.:23:01.

will not regard as of the date. -- orders of the day. Order!

:23:02.:23:23.

Order! . We will begin with clause one, which will be completed to

:23:24.:23:32.

debate class to study the question is back clause one stand part of the

:23:33.:23:40.

bill. For approval by Parliament for two draft legislative measures as

:23:41.:23:46.

required under section eight of the EQ act 2011. Such approval is needed

:23:47.:23:52.

because both measures are made under Article 352 of the Treaty on the

:23:53.:23:56.

function of the European Union. By section eight of the act does

:23:57.:24:00.

provide for exceptions in order to avoid the requirement of an act of

:24:01.:24:04.

Parliament, the measures had to that full fastball without any of the

:24:05.:24:10.

exempt purposes. Clocked at two turtle instead of the bill, is

:24:11.:24:17.

commencement date and short title. Subsection one of clause two

:24:18.:24:20.

provides that the bill to extend to the whole of the UK, subjection to

:24:21.:24:25.

provide that the bill will, to fall task force on that day. Subsection

:24:26.:24:30.

three provide to the build's short title. I beg to move that clause one

:24:31.:24:37.

and class to stand part of the bill. -- clause to. The question is that

:24:38.:24:49.

clause one stand part to the. I think the eyes back haven't. The

:24:50.:24:54.

question is that class to stand part of the bill. The contrary, no. I

:24:55.:25:06.

think the ayes haven't. I do not report the bill to the house without

:25:07.:25:12.

the amendment. -- now. The ayes haven't.

:25:13.:25:20.

The committee has gone through the bill and reports the same with that

:25:21.:25:51.

amendment. The question is that the bill now be read a third time. I beg

:25:52.:25:59.

to move that the bill now be read a third time. I think the brief

:26:00.:26:08.

explanation that... At the beginning of this session covered the points

:26:09.:26:11.

that needed to be made about this very short bill and the purpose and

:26:12.:26:15.

reason as to why they are required. A second reading stage, we covered

:26:16.:26:22.

some points raised in the session, but I think it is fair to say that

:26:23.:26:28.

this bill and debate have covered the two clauses sufficiently. I

:26:29.:26:34.

think it is worth reflecting that the bill before us forms part of the

:26:35.:26:37.

ability of parliament examine and give it the light give advice and

:26:38.:26:43.

clearance of protection and oversight of the European Union act

:26:44.:26:48.

that it affords us. Bills such as this give another layer of

:26:49.:26:53.

protection with the European union legislation... I will give way. I am

:26:54.:27:00.

grateful Madam Deputy Speaker because as my right honourable

:27:01.:27:07.

friend likely says, the only point of concern about this bill is why it

:27:08.:27:12.

is that such trivial matters are being dealt with by way of an act of

:27:13.:27:16.

Parliament. Would my right honourable friend agree with me that

:27:17.:27:22.

while these might be trivial matters, the public might be

:27:23.:27:25.

concerned that they are being dealt with by Parliament, the public

:27:26.:27:30.

should be equally concerned that such major matters such as the

:27:31.:27:38.

turkey re-installment in the European Union will go through the

:27:39.:27:44.

same installment. I thank my honourable friend for his remarks. I

:27:45.:27:48.

think it is right to say that when it comes to debating and discussing

:27:49.:27:51.

matters of this nature, I would not quite use the same terms that my

:27:52.:27:55.

honourable friend has used, trivial, much as this and other assets of the

:27:56.:28:03.

European Union. As he has pointed out, the exception of Turkey which

:28:04.:28:09.

will have debate and at the same time there will be engagement with

:28:10.:28:12.

the European committee and other debates will take place in this

:28:13.:28:16.

house, I am delighted to see the chair of the committee in his place

:28:17.:28:20.

this afternoon as well. I think it is important for me to emphasise two

:28:21.:28:26.

points in particular. I want to go back to the second reading point as

:28:27.:28:31.

well. I was clear when we had a second reading that obviously there

:28:32.:28:33.

were concerns about what this legislation meant, what the cost of

:28:34.:28:40.

the taxpayer will be, I emphasise that there are no burdens and costs.

:28:41.:28:45.

Administrative costs or extra cost to the taxpayer but I think it is

:28:46.:28:48.

important to say that when reading this bill -- bringing this bill to

:28:49.:28:53.

the House, a covers two clauses, these clauses relates to DTS S and

:28:54.:29:06.

the other relates in particular to the Republic of Macedonia as a

:29:07.:29:11.

observer in the work of the EU funding rights agencies and on that

:29:12.:29:14.

basis these are two very straightforward causes and are part

:29:15.:29:19.

of a very straightforward bill. I commend this bill to the House. I

:29:20.:29:28.

must admit, I find myself called to the dispatch box today. We are here

:29:29.:29:35.

to debate to matters, the first is whether a new position should be

:29:36.:29:40.

established within the organisation in the name of the former Yugoslavia

:29:41.:29:46.

and Association Council, establishing this new position I

:29:47.:29:50.

understand in some way facilitates the admission of Macedonia to the

:29:51.:29:55.

European Union agency for fundamental rights as an observer.

:29:56.:30:02.

The second point of this bill... I think that is why I am here. There

:30:03.:30:08.

appears to be a need for me to update the formal basis, recognising

:30:09.:30:13.

the fact that its function now relates to "The gender from -- the

:30:14.:30:23.

agenda for growth". Can the Minister held me and is this really so. If so

:30:24.:30:28.

the substance of this bill is almost the definition of bureaucratic my

:30:29.:30:35.

new shop. While it is my understanding that both of these

:30:36.:30:39.

relate to the draft of the European Council which need to be approved by

:30:40.:30:43.

each member of the state as well as Parliament, I do find the use of

:30:44.:30:47.

this quite extraordinary. Particularly at a time when the

:30:48.:30:50.

government is hacking away at the social safety net via second

:30:51.:30:57.

legislation it is a uphill struggle to get ministers to agree to even a

:30:58.:31:00.

short debate in the core door. It does not appear that the government

:31:01.:31:04.

in my view has this right. Anyway, here we are. I will use the time we

:31:05.:31:11.

have to be free recap these proposals. Which I do not expect to

:31:12.:31:16.

be the subject of raging controversy in this debate. The first part of

:31:17.:31:20.

the bill as we have heard relates to the omission of Macedonia as an

:31:21.:31:24.

observer at the European Union agency for fundamental rights. This

:31:25.:31:28.

follows a report from the European commission which was published

:31:29.:31:31.

earlier this year and set out a number of recommendations to revive

:31:32.:31:37.

Macedonia's stalled candidacy for access to the EU. My honourable

:31:38.:31:42.

friend will be aware that the Greeks... Maybe she might use the

:31:43.:31:51.

full name to not upset our Greek colleagues? The honourable gentleman

:31:52.:31:58.

is right and I apologise and hope that the council will get it right

:31:59.:32:03.

even if I do not. This process was initiated in 2005 and has been put

:32:04.:32:07.

on hold as a result of widespread concerns more recently over the

:32:08.:32:10.

country's deteriorating record on human rights. The admission of the

:32:11.:32:18.

former Republic of Yugoslavia known as Macedonia to the EU's agenda for

:32:19.:32:24.

fundamental rights as an observer was one of the number of

:32:25.:32:27.

recommendations made in the European commission's recent report. As

:32:28.:32:31.

explained in the debate on second reading, it is hoped that"

:32:32.:32:38.

observers... And assistance on fundamental rights, issues, to help

:32:39.:32:44.

tackle its reform challenges and provide assistance and help to the

:32:45.:32:48.

country on human rights issues." I have to say that at the rate this

:32:49.:32:54.

government is going, with them removing the requirement to respect

:32:55.:32:56.

international law for ministerial code and pressing ahead with their

:32:57.:33:01.

plans to repeal the Human Rights Act, perhaps a theatre of colleagues

:33:02.:33:05.

up to join a Macedonia delegation and learn a few lessons. ... For

:33:06.:33:14.

growth and employment. Bills note described as the... European

:33:15.:33:24.

commission and the Council to enable high-level discussion between the

:33:25.:33:28.

three parties of social aspects of the European agenda for jobs. Beyond

:33:29.:33:34.

these exceptionally vague generalities, further details of the

:33:35.:33:37.

summits roles are surprisingly hard to come by. Nevertheless, any

:33:38.:33:42.

discussion of jobs and growth is hardly objectionable and certainly

:33:43.:33:47.

not objection by me. In fact, should the representatives of the UK take

:33:48.:33:51.

part in any upcoming meetings, it might provide an ideal opportunity

:33:52.:33:55.

for ministers take on board some the valuable lessons our European

:33:56.:33:59.

friends have to offer in terms of jobs and growth. At a time when our

:34:00.:34:03.

jobs market is not the envy of the entire continent, the government

:34:04.:34:08.

should welcome such change. We have a high proportion of graduates doing

:34:09.:34:12.

jobs that they are overqualified for, 59% in any other country in the

:34:13.:34:16.

European Union, apart from Estonia and another country. We have a

:34:17.:34:20.

higher rate of underemployment where a 10th of our entire workforce worse

:34:21.:34:26.

life than they want to, lower than any other European Union country

:34:27.:34:32.

other than a couple of them. This appears to be getting worse. In most

:34:33.:34:36.

recent employment figures from the oh in S show that even a number of

:34:37.:34:41.

people working in the UK has risen, the total number of hours worked by

:34:42.:34:46.

the UK have actually fallen. Perhaps a European counterpart could teach

:34:47.:34:50.

us a thing or two. We do not intend to oppose this bill and I welcome

:34:51.:34:55.

it. As least as far as a ghost. Because it offers us some reminder

:34:56.:34:58.

that of the things that we have to be grateful for, not least the

:34:59.:35:03.

protection of fundamental rights and freedoms, including some of the most

:35:04.:35:06.

basic rights of the workplace which many of us take for granted but

:35:07.:35:10.

would not be there without the European Union. At a time where the

:35:11.:35:14.

government is undermining these rights, particularly in the trade

:35:15.:35:16.

union bill, we should welcome the opportunity that this debate

:35:17.:35:20.

provides to remember the positive role of the EU can play in our

:35:21.:35:24.

lives, particularly when it comes to protecting dignity in the workplace.

:35:25.:35:28.

It is disappointing that the government does not seem to share

:35:29.:35:37.

these values. I am sure members from across the House will be delighted

:35:38.:35:39.

to hear the SNP will be supporting this bill today. They will be more

:35:40.:35:47.

delighted to hear that I am making my comments as brief as possible.

:35:48.:35:51.

The most popular thing I think I has said as a right dock regular member.

:35:52.:35:56.

Stanton has been a great success and it is good to see our friends and

:35:57.:36:00.

colleagues across the European Union working more closely together,

:36:01.:36:03.

particularly pleased to see Macedonia joined the EU agency as an

:36:04.:36:09.

observer. It is particularly helpful to them as we'd deal with the

:36:10.:36:12.

refugee crisis and I hope they will get some benefit from that will stop

:36:13.:36:15.

it is also a reminder of those countries that have the biggest

:36:16.:36:20.

burden they have to deal with in terms of the refugee crisis that

:36:21.:36:24.

they can certainly do more. On the second point, we wholeheartedly

:36:25.:36:30.

support any dialogue between the EU institution employers and worker

:36:31.:36:34.

representatives. And through the apartheid... We need to remain part

:36:35.:36:43.

of the European Union, benefits of remaining a part of the European

:36:44.:36:47.

Union as money members will agree and we moved to support this bill

:36:48.:36:53.

today. It seems this is going to go through without too much

:36:54.:36:58.

controversy, but I think it is worthy of commenting on on the state

:36:59.:37:01.

of employment across the whole of the European Union including Ukraine

:37:02.:37:07.

as we ring attentive to our own problems. I remember Britain before

:37:08.:37:14.

some of you were born. We headed biggest investors in history. The

:37:15.:37:22.

bill seeks approval for members to be made France additional made that.

:37:23.:37:33.

The TSS organisation is meant to discuss increasing the employment

:37:34.:37:40.

rates, investing 3% of GDP and development and reducing... These

:37:41.:37:47.

are worthy things. But they are living in a dream world if they

:37:48.:37:49.

think it is doing anything economically. There is an credible

:37:50.:37:58.

risk of unemployment. Widget that was repeated in Britain, we would

:37:59.:38:02.

have four and a half unemployed not 1.8 as thereby says at the moment.

:38:03.:38:09.

It is in a bad way and indeed some the larger companies are quietly

:38:10.:38:13.

suffering, particularly France. People in France are fighting and

:38:14.:38:20.

are nervous about their futures. But if we think everything is fine and

:38:21.:38:31.

dandy, I think it is just... If people in the European Union believe

:38:32.:38:34.

that to be the case, I think they are living in this dream world. The

:38:35.:38:41.

reality is that the EU is failing, Greece, Italy, France as I

:38:42.:38:45.

mentioned, but also Finland has very serious problems. Problems of

:38:46.:38:52.

printing billions of euros to try and stop their country from seeking.

:38:53.:38:57.

So their are serious economic problems inside the euro zone and

:38:58.:39:02.

the European Union. The only way they are going to get the growth

:39:03.:39:06.

we're talking about is for them to be able to regard their economies on

:39:07.:39:14.

a national basis, the value of their currency in relation to other

:39:15.:39:16.

currencies and their interest rates and indeed there own fiscal policies

:39:17.:39:24.

as well. When they can do that, when they can regroup behind their own

:39:25.:39:30.

barriers, then we should see Europe as a colony growing again and see

:39:31.:39:35.

millions of people who have been out of work from a long time to back

:39:36.:39:41.

into work. It is an innocuous bill, some the points it is covering, jobs

:39:42.:39:45.

and growth, I think we ought to just focus on those occasionally to show

:39:46.:39:50.

how badly that they are. When I was a young person, everyone had a job,

:39:51.:39:58.

we had full employment. We had a Labour shortage, we have living

:39:59.:40:02.

centres like we have not seen before. Or since then it has gone

:40:03.:40:08.

rapidly wrong and as I said more crises are to come, more serious

:40:09.:40:16.

crisis are to come. I think the European Union has been economically

:40:17.:40:19.

growth and stability in jobs I think growth and stability in jobs I think

:40:20.:40:25.

they are living in this dreamworld. The question is that the bill not be

:40:26.:40:29.

read a third time, as many of that opinion say I on the contrary say

:40:30.:40:37.

no. Motion number two on relocation of migrants for international

:40:38.:40:41.

protection opt in decision, Minister to move. Thank you Madam Deputy

:40:42.:40:49.

Speaker. This motion covers a series of EU proposals on the relocation of

:40:50.:40:54.

migrants within the EU. These proposals or an essential response

:40:55.:41:00.

to the ongoing migration conserves... And indeed have been

:41:01.:41:03.

summoned to previous debates in this house. The current migration can't

:41:04.:41:06.

do my crisis has been described as the worst refugee crisis since World

:41:07.:41:12.

War II are thought to. As does the ability of the Member States to

:41:13.:41:15.

provide a comprehensive and sustainable response, one which is

:41:16.:41:19.

both able to support those Member States under most pressure and

:41:20.:41:22.

ensure protections are provided for those in real need of it. This has

:41:23.:41:28.

been a competent fast-moving situation, proposals have been

:41:29.:41:32.

adopted extremely quickly and ministers have met him almost weekly

:41:33.:41:39.

basis. As soon as proposals were adopted they were almost superseded

:41:40.:41:43.

by others. Since the crisis began, the government has been very clear

:41:44.:41:47.

on our views of relocation, it is the wrong response. It is absolutely

:41:48.:41:51.

nothing to adjust the underlying causes of the crisis, it does

:41:52.:41:54.

nothing more than move the problem around Europe. Relocation also...

:41:55.:41:59.

Process applications and Process applications and

:42:00.:42:01.

strengthening borders. It encourages more migrants to travel illegally

:42:02.:42:07.

into the EU. We must ensure the relocation proposal does not reduce

:42:08.:42:11.

the opposition on all Member States to have a functioning border and

:42:12.:42:16.

asylum systems. We have stated that the UK will not alter measures

:42:17.:42:19.

whether temporary or permanent. I apologise to the House that on these

:42:20.:42:23.

relocation measures we have had to override scrutiny. The commission

:42:24.:42:30.

broke the Mike brought forward... The trimester and home secretary

:42:31.:42:34.

were required to make the government views on such measures clear and

:42:35.:42:37.

hastily arranged EU Council meetings. The debate on relocation

:42:38.:42:43.

continue within the EU, only a tiny number of people have been relocated

:42:44.:42:46.

under the agreed temporary measures and many Member States are now

:42:47.:42:49.

stepping back on commitments they have previously made and the concern

:42:50.:42:53.

is growing on the merits of the permanent mechanism. I will give

:42:54.:42:59.

way. I am grateful to my friend for giving way, does my honourable

:43:00.:43:04.

friend agreed with the position of Slovakia who believe this decision

:43:05.:43:13.

should have been taken by unanimously. We are not party to

:43:14.:43:16.

these arrangements in using our opt out but I think my honourable friend

:43:17.:43:21.

of easily does highlight some of the issues that have been risen since

:43:22.:43:24.

the mid-measures were put into place. Indeed, I am aware that to

:43:25.:43:31.

like in Hungary have filed challenges in the Court of Justice

:43:32.:43:34.

against the relocation scheme. I think that there are those kinds can

:43:35.:43:39.

-- those concerns that these proposals are geared bike

:43:40.:43:44.

ill-conceived. Using them as a tool ill-conceived. Using them as a tool

:43:45.:43:52.

to manage the crisis I give way. Could he explain under this scheme

:43:53.:43:57.

that was agreed, if a migrant is allocated to a given country to

:43:58.:44:01.

settle but then this could stomach decides to live in another EU

:44:02.:44:04.

country, what is stopping them from moving? And issue my friend has

:44:05.:44:10.

highlighted is an issue that we remain conscious of, what might be

:44:11.:44:15.

described as secondary movement. There is secondary movement within

:44:16.:44:20.

the Schengen area, but we maintain our own border controls and visa

:44:21.:44:24.

requirements and therefore is within the Schengen area that that may

:44:25.:44:26.

operate but I think there are those practical issues that have been

:44:27.:44:29.

highlighted in terms of the operation of the scheme and indeed

:44:30.:44:34.

to date I think it is only 160 people have been relocated under

:44:35.:44:46.

these measures the sparse. Bar. We continue to make the case that this

:44:47.:44:52.

is not just an EU problem, it is an international issue which needs

:44:53.:44:56.

action from a whole range of parties. I am grateful to you for

:44:57.:45:03.

giving way, is the problem on secondary movement that once they

:45:04.:45:07.

become citizens of the EU state, the free movement of people means they

:45:08.:45:10.

are entitled to get anywhere and under our law, asylum seekers get in

:45:11.:45:18.

the queue. I think my honourable friend makes an important point in

:45:19.:45:23.

respect of the citizenship stopping he will equally know that there are

:45:24.:45:29.

certain things we have adopted in relation to the character

:45:30.:45:32.

requirements and other steps that we take to assure ourselves in respect

:45:33.:45:36.

of those who may be granted citizenship will stop at a something

:45:37.:45:39.

that is conducted over a number of years before somebody would be so

:45:40.:45:45.

entitled, therefore it is not a symptomatic and underlines the point

:45:46.:45:49.

that I made which means we maintain our own border requirements and

:45:50.:45:53.

adhere to that very clearly for those who are not EU citizens. No

:45:54.:46:02.

problem, one of the refugees do not want to go to the countries which

:46:03.:46:06.

they have been allocated? If they are put and forcibly sent to

:46:07.:46:09.

countries they do not like or want to go to, that certainly has echoes

:46:10.:46:18.

of uncomfortable... I think he makes an honourable point on the operation

:46:19.:46:20.

of the scheme, that is something that has been a practical issue that

:46:21.:46:27.

EU Member States who are party to this have found. In terms of

:46:28.:46:29.

actually working with the migrants who have displayed an unwillingness

:46:30.:46:37.

to participate in terms of some of the relocation arrangements,

:46:38.:46:39.

contemplated by the measures subject to the debate this evening,

:46:40.:46:43.

therefore some of those practical issues that are having to be

:46:44.:46:48.

confronted. The situation in relation to the migration conscious

:46:49.:46:52.

my crisis is causally changing and requires a flexible response. Our

:46:53.:46:56.

approach has been designed to route diaper tag UK interest while making

:46:57.:47:01.

eight countries and to those in need and addressing the unprecedented

:47:02.:47:05.

challenges faced by partners. This is not proving to be successful.

:47:06.:47:08.

Time would be better spent on measures that would make a real

:47:09.:47:12.

difference, we must secure the border and provide protection to

:47:13.:47:15.

those who need it and return to those who do not. That is where the

:47:16.:47:18.

focus of this government will remain and I trust the House will be

:47:19.:47:26.

mindful and support the notion. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker, I'm

:47:27.:47:29.

glad we got the opportunity to debate this important issue today.

:47:30.:47:36.

Clinical unrest and widespread violations of human rights have led

:47:37.:47:39.

to millions of people being displaced. The UNHCR are saying

:47:40.:47:47.

there are millions of Syrian refugees alone and as the Minister

:47:48.:47:52.

said, the worst humanitarian crisis in Europe since the Second World War

:47:53.:47:55.

ended as the most important issue facing the EU. Over the last nine

:47:56.:48:01.

months, the EU have seen unprecedented levels of migration,

:48:02.:48:06.

with over 812,000 asylum seekers in the EU up to the end of September

:48:07.:48:12.

and the UNHCR are saying there are over 3000 the bulk tragically dead

:48:13.:48:16.

or missing from attempting crossings of the Mediterranean. The vast

:48:17.:48:22.

majority of the pressures of these incoming migrants has fallen on

:48:23.:48:27.

Italy and Greece with 99.5% of migrants crossing the Mediterranean,

:48:28.:48:32.

arriving in these two countries and that is the background to the EU

:48:33.:48:38.

proposed programme of relocation within the UK. Britain has rightly

:48:39.:48:45.

had an opt out in relation to migration matters and has decided

:48:46.:48:49.

not to opt back in on these measures. While we support that

:48:50.:48:58.

decision, it is disappointing that it has taken over six months of

:48:59.:49:04.

repeated prompting by the scrutiny committee to secure this debate on

:49:05.:49:08.

the floor of the House. We of course recognise that there are often

:49:09.:49:12.

fast-moving situations that the government should not be

:49:13.:49:15.

constrained, but we do think the government should reflect on the

:49:16.:49:19.

approach it has taken so far as the procedure is concerned. Let me turn

:49:20.:49:25.

to the substance, why we do not want to see Britain opt in to mandatory

:49:26.:49:31.

quotas, we do believe that we should still take an active role in

:49:32.:49:35.

tackling the migration crisis across the EU as well as on our doorstep.

:49:36.:49:40.

Here we take issue with the government's response. Just as we

:49:41.:49:47.

have joint military operations to play our part in tackling Isis, so

:49:48.:49:52.

we have a moral responsibility to work with EU states to help deal

:49:53.:49:58.

with the large number of refugees fleeing the barbaric conditions in

:49:59.:50:03.

Syria elsewhere. The government has of course pledged to accept 20,000

:50:04.:50:08.

refugees over the course of this Parliament, 4000 refugees a year.

:50:09.:50:12.

Labour calling the government to Labour calling the government to

:50:13.:50:15.

take action, this is undoubtedly a welcome step by the House.

:50:16.:50:21.

Government is still refusing to accept people in desperate need from

:50:22.:50:29.

other EU states. I would say the other 4000 refugees represents less

:50:30.:50:36.

than half of the refugees entering this year. That is not good enough.

:50:37.:50:41.

The UK has a proud history of offering sanctuary to those in need

:50:42.:50:45.

responsibilities. I give way. Could responsibilities. I give way. Could

:50:46.:50:53.

he explain how many things we ought to take and what are the criteria of

:50:54.:51:01.

that? I am grateful for that. The position we adopt is that mandatory

:51:02.:51:07.

quotas are not the way forward, any numbers taken in this country should

:51:08.:51:13.

be only on a voluntary basis. Our view is that in light of the failing

:51:14.:51:21.

of the policy, the government ought to read think on a voluntary basis

:51:22.:51:26.

whether we should take some numbers from Europe. -- rethink. It would be

:51:27.:51:33.

up to the government to decide what numbers, it was on a voluntary

:51:34.:51:37.

basis, it would be the right number. I think it has been suggested that

:51:38.:51:46.

if every city or county in Britain took ten families, we would be able

:51:47.:51:51.

to take perhaps 10,000 individuals. As I said in the first instance, we

:51:52.:51:55.

call on the government to reconsider its approach in light of the

:51:56.:52:00.

prevailing situation. It goes without saying, I should add, that

:52:01.:52:07.

under any scheme, a voluntary scheme in particular. There should be a

:52:08.:52:12.

robust vetting procedure wherever procedures take place. Therefore we

:52:13.:52:20.

call on the government to reconsider the refusal to take people relocated

:52:21.:52:25.

from other Member States on a voluntary basis without opting in to

:52:26.:52:29.

a mandatory system. And even if we are not part of the mandatory

:52:30.:52:35.

relocation scheme, we should be doing everything within our part

:52:36.:52:40.

power to ensure it is working effectively. The EU relocation

:52:41.:52:47.

scheme so far has relocated 130 individuals from Italy and from

:52:48.:52:52.

Greece of its intended 160,000 people. Which seems to us to

:52:53.:52:57.

indicate that it may be incapable of successfully dealing with the

:52:58.:53:01.

pressures being faced by Italy and Greece. In addition to that, only

:53:02.:53:07.

six of the 22 Member States have notified the EU that they have the

:53:08.:53:11.

capacity to host relocated individuals. We do ask what steps,

:53:12.:53:17.

if any, the government is taking to re-support -- support the

:53:18.:53:24.

relocation. We do raise a point that has been raised on more than one

:53:25.:53:27.

occasion by the scrutiny committee, it is this. Absent voluntary

:53:28.:53:33.

relocation, how does the government interpreted the principle of

:53:34.:53:37.

solidarity and fair sharing of responsibility in the EU? I turn to

:53:38.:53:45.

the questions that we have in relation to this motion which we

:53:46.:53:50.

support. Firstly could the Minister of Digby House on the number of

:53:51.:53:54.

Syrian refugees that have arrived in Britain since the Prime Minister

:53:55.:53:57.

announced that we will be taking 20,000 over the course of this

:53:58.:54:05.

Parliament? In addition, the home office has stated that there are 55

:54:06.:54:10.

local authorities that will be welcoming Syria refugees before

:54:11.:54:14.

Christmas. Could the Minister provide the House with an update of

:54:15.:54:19.

how many of those authorities have so far welcomed refugees? Thirdly,

:54:20.:54:25.

the government says they are reluctant to take migrants relocated

:54:26.:54:29.

within the EU for fear of creating new poll factors, and this produced

:54:30.:54:34.

little evidence that this would be the result of allowing internal

:54:35.:54:43.

relocation. As the European said scrutiny committee has observed,

:54:44.:54:48.

there has been no substance on this issue and on the pull factor

:54:49.:54:53.

argument. Surely we must recognise the desperation that is forcing

:54:54.:54:59.

people to leave their homes, journey to the EU in the knowledge that

:55:00.:55:04.

their loved months might not make it, is going to be a significant

:55:05.:55:08.

factor, no matter the programme put in place. -- loved ones. I wonder if

:55:09.:55:16.

the shadow Minister could assist us by explaining how many people leave

:55:17.:55:21.

Syria and how me people come into greased and why is there a large

:55:22.:55:29.

difference? I am not in a position to deal with the intervention, it is

:55:30.:55:32.

probably better put to the Minister. What I'm can, considering myself --

:55:33.:55:39.

concerning myself with is that the government has rightly said it will

:55:40.:55:43.

take refugees from outside Europe, and we support that. The question is

:55:44.:55:47.

what about those who have made it into Europe? Of course, the

:55:48.:55:54.

government does not want to get drawn into a mandatory relocation

:55:55.:55:59.

programme within Europe, but we question why there cannot be some

:56:00.:56:03.

voluntary arrangement that we could enter into to play our full part in

:56:04.:56:10.

solidarity and our fair responsibility for refugees across

:56:11.:56:15.

Europe. Just as we join with our other allies in defeating or trying

:56:16.:56:21.

to defeat Isis, and the causes of refugees and migrants, we should

:56:22.:56:25.

just play our full part in the crisis that is here in Europe, in

:56:26.:56:29.

very real terms with huge numbers already in Europe desperately

:56:30.:56:34.

needing relocation. And in a situation where all of the figures,

:56:35.:56:41.

at this early stage it looks like the relocation programme is not

:56:42.:56:44.

working as it was anticipated, as I said only 160 or so individuals have

:56:45.:56:49.

been relocated in the circumstances we do ask the question why the

:56:50.:56:53.

government should not the doing more.

:56:54.:56:59.

To me finish what I started to return to the way it which the

:57:00.:57:07.

method now comes before the House. Again, recognising that these are

:57:08.:57:11.

fast-moving situations, can the Minister give an assurance that the

:57:12.:57:14.

house will be properly updated at that time will be allow for proper

:57:15.:57:21.

scrutiny and debate asked this revocation policy rolls out over the

:57:22.:57:22.

coming weeks and months? Most grateful indeed. I had not

:57:23.:57:40.

realised that the had set them. I am grateful. Had been chairman of the

:57:41.:57:53.

European scrutiny committee, requested advice is to go to a

:57:54.:57:56.

number of meetings, going on for about. Two in Luxembourg, one in

:57:57.:58:03.

Brussels,, and when Italy's only Brussels,, and when Italy's only

:58:04.:58:09.

this last week in. And I want to pay tribute to the invitation from the

:58:10.:58:18.

Italian chairman of the standing committee of the Italian Parliament.

:58:19.:58:25.

The two is extremely important initiative, which was to bring

:58:26.:58:31.

together the chairperson of, or most of the national Wenceslaus abilities

:58:32.:58:36.

and every is that we are discussing today. First of all, I'll also let

:58:37.:58:49.

the referred to admitting that took place under Cossack, which is a body

:58:50.:58:53.

that consists of the national chairperson of the parliamentary

:58:54.:58:59.

national EU committees. Which is in fact also given a very wide remit of

:59:00.:59:09.

method of the kind we are discussing today and was frankly, although it

:59:10.:59:18.

is webcast and published, actually does not get in if they let the

:59:19.:59:21.

attention that it really deserves. I will save why, because having been

:59:22.:59:30.

on the committee for over 30 years, and having the chairperson for the

:59:31.:59:35.

last five and being reelected as chairman for this Parliament, but it

:59:36.:59:41.

is very important for me to say that I have never seen such an explosion

:59:42.:59:49.

of anger at a meeting of Cossack and all the times that I have been

:59:50.:59:54.

taking part in those meetings. The reason for it is the lack of

:59:55.:59:59.

democracy that live at the heart of this proposal. -- Alize. The member

:00:00.:00:09.

from Lieutenant was with me in Luxembourg, and he will bear witness

:00:10.:00:14.

to the sure anger and imposition against the wishes of the individual

:00:15.:00:22.

countries concerned. Go about five and all from Central and eastern

:00:23.:00:26.

Europe, who were absolutely furious at the way in which they've were

:00:27.:00:29.

having these mandatory controls imposed upon them. It does raise a

:00:30.:00:40.

fundamental question of insensitivity, tense sensitivity, to

:00:41.:00:45.

the people who live in this country. The way which the issues in the

:00:46.:00:50.

debate were discussed in the upper Rashomon, verified atmosphere of the

:00:51.:00:56.

EU and this institutional framework, there is almost no relationship to

:00:57.:01:02.

what is going on on the ground in regards to the voters themselves.

:01:03.:01:07.

With his national chairman coming together at this meeting, they

:01:08.:01:09.

expressed themselves and very clear language. This to me, apart from all

:01:10.:01:18.

the other things going on the referendum, our complaints about the

:01:19.:01:23.

single currency, the whole question of the straitjacket of the further

:01:24.:01:30.

political integration in the compression chamber, which I've been

:01:31.:01:36.

referred to since I led the rebellion on the to do back in 1990,

:01:37.:01:44.

to the compression chamber that was building up. What has happened is

:01:45.:01:50.

that this is an example of that very compression chamber which is now

:01:51.:01:56.

exploding and was made clear in the coal sector meetings. It was

:01:57.:01:58.

replicated yet again in the discussions that we had this last

:01:59.:02:05.

weekend on the Schengen agreement. I know that we are not members of the

:02:06.:02:17.

change in aggregate, I was with him and Luxembourg. What he suggests,

:02:18.:02:25.

what he agreed that this is to be some intimidation of smaller, less

:02:26.:02:29.

economically powerful patients being somewhat intimidated by the larger

:02:30.:02:38.

nations at that meeting? Culture to the point, the motion before before

:02:39.:02:48.

the meeting was whether or not the 27 -- 28 member states of repair,

:02:49.:02:52.

excluding ourselves and our lives, but actually welcomed the proposals

:02:53.:03:01.

that were sent out of the motion. The five countries concerned, the

:03:02.:03:06.

Czech Republic, Slovakia, Romania, having bolted as the Minister said,

:03:07.:03:19.

how to read, -- Hungary. These countries were being told

:03:20.:03:23.

effectively that they should go a long with his mandatory abridgments.

:03:24.:03:31.

In respect to the parliament... Parliamentary resentments of it and

:03:32.:03:35.

that votes against the. And applications to the courts of

:03:36.:03:39.

Justice. They were effectively being told that they were from and that

:03:40.:03:47.

when they simply said that the motion should take note of the

:03:48.:03:53.

relocation proposals, which was overgenerous of them, but they were

:03:54.:04:00.

giving to accept the notion that they should welcome this. That is

:04:01.:04:03.

what led to the explosion in the debate going on. Going on for over

:04:04.:04:08.

four hours about that very question. It must not be underestimated. This

:04:09.:04:25.

is not something... This is about average number a total democracy in

:04:26.:04:34.

the EU, and posing by a mandatory abridgments, a settlement on

:04:35.:04:38.

countries who simply do not want to do so. It is a perfect example of

:04:39.:04:43.

what I described at the compression chamber, blowing up in those

:04:44.:04:48.

circumstances. That is the background to which I think we

:04:49.:04:51.

should be considering this. It is not just a question of whether or

:04:52.:04:56.

not we like it or not. It is a question of how the EU operates and

:04:57.:05:01.

practice. Is not just on that. Look at how the Greeks were treated by

:05:02.:05:06.

the Germans with regard to the whole of the austerity programme. The way

:05:07.:05:13.

did the Portuguese president disregarded and ignored and refuse

:05:14.:05:21.

to accept the decision of the voters by not acknowledging the new party

:05:22.:05:29.

of government a few weeks ago. The list is very considerable. As far as

:05:30.:05:34.

I'm concerned, that is really the basis to which this off of the

:05:35.:05:42.

judge. I am delighted, but not surprised, that the government has

:05:43.:05:46.

decided it would not cost them into these abridgments because to say the

:05:47.:05:53.

least, that's these abridgments, I said this was some assume the other,

:05:54.:06:01.

but our policy are shunted to the problem of refugees at source, is in

:06:02.:06:04.

fact the best way to go about this. Not to allow these people in, but at

:06:05.:06:12.

the meeting this Friday, we have the issue of why did Germany take the

:06:13.:06:20.

line that it could. The answer was very much to do with their desire to

:06:21.:06:28.

have more people working in the country, it was for economic region.

:06:29.:06:36.

-- recent. They want to compensate for the bridge of their current

:06:37.:06:38.

rapid global working age population quite some, this was done in respect

:06:39.:06:45.

of the impact that is going to have by the EU. Because that is what

:06:46.:06:55.

Germany wants. Angela Merkel's popularity has pummeled over the

:06:56.:06:59.

last few weeks. Because she has missed justice as it might have

:07:00.:07:05.

taken -- missed justice, but the point is to bring in a million

:07:06.:07:10.

people into Germany, which is basically what has happened, is not

:07:11.:07:15.

the end. It at the beginning of the store. Those looking people are

:07:16.:07:20.

themselves going to have their own children, going to bring to families

:07:21.:07:29.

over as well. The whole human rights is going to be made available to

:07:30.:07:37.

them. This is an opening, but I described the other day as a

:07:38.:07:41.

tsunami. On top of that, there is the question which I referred to on

:07:42.:07:45.

a number of occasions on the floor before. Nobody can doubt for a

:07:46.:07:51.

moment that there are a number, albeit perhaps a small number, of

:07:52.:07:58.

Jihad is amongst those people who have come over. The reality is that

:07:59.:08:04.

you only need a few to brief the kind of havoc that we witnessed in

:08:05.:08:11.

Paris. For those that would criticise people like myself for

:08:12.:08:14.

mentioning this, the fact is that it is a fact that is what is happening.

:08:15.:08:20.

It is on a scale, which is unprecedented, since the Second

:08:21.:08:28.

World War. Does the bimbo actually have hard evidence of the jihad is

:08:29.:08:35.

arriving in the UK under the disguise of terrorist? What he also

:08:36.:08:40.

agreed that some threats that the post, should we abolish the police?

:08:41.:08:50.

We know it, because there are people who are declared jihadists, who have

:08:51.:08:54.

been in Syria, and other parts of the Middle East. Jihad a John is a

:08:55.:09:04.

very good example. These are declared jihadists who came from the

:09:05.:09:08.

UK. But I was not making the point of the UK in this context am

:09:09.:09:12.

although I do perceive the data that. , referring to the fact that

:09:13.:09:20.

there is no doubt of those those have been to see every a and come

:09:21.:09:25.

back again, to routes which enabled him to come to Paris, contribute to

:09:26.:09:30.

the carnage. If people are going to dispute that, they can do that. But

:09:31.:09:36.

the facts are clear. These are broad problems which have to be addressed,

:09:37.:09:43.

and this is a important part of the debate. People can have different

:09:44.:09:46.

views about that, but the reality is that there are real dangers and all

:09:47.:09:52.

of this. The other thing I am about to say in respect to the manner in

:09:53.:09:55.

which the government has dealt with this, and I want to make this

:09:56.:10:05.

briefly. The opt in decision, with the scheduling of the debate, and

:10:06.:10:11.

administer past their briefly over this and am a sort of apology for

:10:12.:10:17.

what had happened. -- made a sort of. The fact is that scheduling a

:10:18.:10:25.

debate after the government has reached a opt in decision makes a

:10:26.:10:28.

mockery of the government's this task of immature but they have said,

:10:29.:10:37.

which is enhanced scrutiny of its opt in decisions. And a mockery of a

:10:38.:10:42.

full and transparency and accountability to Parliament. What

:10:43.:10:48.

actually happened was that the government has provided no

:10:49.:10:51.

explanation, even this evening, for his failure to schedule and often

:10:52.:10:55.

debate during the September setting a Parliament. With the house could

:10:56.:10:59.

have expressed the views of opting into the first relocation proposals,

:11:00.:11:05.

or is dogged to schedule and often debate before the expiry of the opt

:11:06.:11:09.

in deadline, which was on the 8th of November. Would he be more

:11:10.:11:17.

sympathetic to the government if it were true that it was nearly two

:11:18.:11:22.

years ago and January 2013 that European scrutiny committee

:11:23.:11:27.

requested a debate on the floor of the house of the movement of people

:11:28.:11:30.

and his failure to schedule a debate has been long-standing. Powerful to

:11:31.:11:36.

occur for government to do better. On this occasion, they have done a

:11:37.:11:41.

lot worse. The delay and scheduling the debate is inconsistent with the

:11:42.:11:45.

letter in the spirit of the commitments made to Parliament by

:11:46.:11:51.

the Minister for Europe. Timer to another subject, -- turning to

:11:52.:12:04.

another subject, them and the ultimate apology for which the

:12:05.:12:06.

minute this has been dealt with. I'm sure he give give it. Is he

:12:07.:12:20.

listening to what I am saying? I'm grateful to him for allowing me to

:12:21.:12:25.

make an intervention. When I gave evidence to the scrutiny committee,

:12:26.:12:29.

the government has had to deal with a fast-moving situation. We are

:12:30.:12:35.

sorry that it has not been possible to have database in a way in which

:12:36.:12:40.

we would choose to, but I think it has been reflective of a exceptional

:12:41.:12:43.

circumstances that would have been delayed with. There have been the

:12:44.:12:46.

opportunities for debate and to respond to questions by which

:12:47.:12:51.

statements, has been in a situation we have mistaken to respond to. Is

:12:52.:12:59.

that an apology? On to know whether it in the circumstances, the

:13:00.:13:08.

ministers to keep his calm, it is very important that he should

:13:09.:13:11.

understand that these are matters leading to the standing orders of

:13:12.:13:16.

the House of Commons on a purely personal opinions. This is something

:13:17.:13:19.

that which we are very concerned about. Kosovo would he has been

:13:20.:13:32.

saying. -- I support. Demanded to talk about matters of being

:13:33.:13:39.

fast-moving. I think a two year debate is not a fast-moving. When a

:13:40.:13:44.

dozen wanted to be, and moves very slowly the. -- in the. The remarks

:13:45.:13:57.

read by my Honorable friend. The point is made. And the joint address

:13:58.:14:04.

to the European Parliament on the 7th of October, the German

:14:05.:14:09.

Chancellor described the Dublin roles as obsolete. The first

:14:10.:14:15.

president highlighted a link between the Dublin roles and the proper

:14:16.:14:18.

functioning of the Schengen free boom in every a and said, call into

:14:19.:14:26.

question the free movement of people are returning to internal border

:14:27.:14:32.

controls would be a tragic error. He went onto say that pretending that

:14:33.:14:38.

in, which is current way of functioning, allowed us 2-faced

:14:39.:14:42.

birder pressures would be another mistake. Dashboard or. It the

:14:43.:14:47.

government system at risk of breaking down and can further

:14:48.:14:50.

fragmentation of the shank in the free boom in every a be avoided? At

:14:51.:14:58.

the meeting I had this weekend, there was an extraordinary

:14:59.:15:04.

contradiction that arise for discussion. On the one hand, the

:15:05.:15:08.

people who went there with her and just to be sure that we had a proper

:15:09.:15:16.

border control system. But were insisting on an external border

:15:17.:15:18.

system and the Minister is aware of this. The irony of the situation is

:15:19.:15:29.

that just at the same time that our insisting on having a greater border

:15:30.:15:37.

controls, and I have said on another note that cases that is almost more

:15:38.:15:42.

barbed wire endures today than was during the the Cold War. The reality

:15:43.:15:49.

is that they also want to have a complete external border system,

:15:50.:15:56.

surroundings the whole of the queue. Presumably, with the exception of

:15:57.:16:05.

the non-Schengen countries. Of the Minister will appreciate what is

:16:06.:16:14.

building up is that under the pressure under the migrant crisis,

:16:15.:16:21.

hybrid desire to to printer -- to go to further, complete border control

:16:22.:16:28.

moved to political union, because of the pressure that has been exerted,

:16:29.:16:31.

but at the same time wanting to have a fact of border controls. B-2s

:16:32.:16:37.

things are inconsistent. I understand that the government is

:16:38.:16:41.

not proposing to actually paid taxpayer monies to the purposes of

:16:42.:16:48.

furthering increasing the effectiveness of context. When you

:16:49.:16:52.

consider the skill of the border, the mass of every a of -- a massive

:16:53.:17:00.

area of the European continent, which is supposed to be completely

:17:01.:17:05.

sealed off by the external borders, the cost of doing so are going to be

:17:06.:17:11.

absolutely monumental. The effectiveness has already been

:17:12.:17:21.

demonstrated as being proven to have been ineffective. It does not work.

:17:22.:17:25.

I doubt whether it is possible to make it work. At the same time, we

:17:26.:17:31.

are getting more pressures exerted towards a deeper integration of the

:17:32.:17:37.

EU to this insistence of external borders. I would like to minister to

:17:38.:17:42.

tell us how it is that we will be able to have an effective system of

:17:43.:17:46.

the kind that is now being proposed, with able external border for Anna

:17:47.:17:52.

has Schengen, while at the same time to stay in the EU as a United

:17:53.:17:58.

Kingdom. I see this as a very important moment in terms of having

:17:59.:18:04.

to leave the EU. The Schengen arrangements reinforce, as

:18:05.:18:10.

taxpayers, they expected to contribute to that, by the same time

:18:11.:18:19.

increasing pressures to do political union seems to be a subject on which

:18:20.:18:23.

we should be speaking more clearly and loudly. There are real dangers

:18:24.:18:35.

and all of this. I simply think bringing in the Turkish action plan

:18:36.:18:37.

into operation is making this even more intractable. There are more

:18:38.:18:42.

things that could be said about that, but at this moment in time the

:18:43.:18:50.

internal borders control within the Schengen free area, with the Germany

:18:51.:18:55.

and several other countries, the reintroduction of border control

:18:56.:19:02.

justified on the ground of public security until security, imposed

:19:03.:19:07.

unilaterally without prior notice, whereas the Schengen border

:19:08.:19:11.

testifies at a maximum period of two months. They are in breach that, the

:19:12.:19:17.

Minister may confirm. I haven't turned the Germany is facing

:19:18.:19:21.

infraction proceedings because of this. Angela Merkel is facing very

:19:22.:19:27.

substantial pressures from within her own country as a result of the

:19:28.:19:31.

mistakes that have been made. The reality is that this commission

:19:32.:19:41.

obtained in them a which has led independent... And the risk of a

:19:42.:19:47.

domino effect, were unilateral action by one as an immediate effect

:19:48.:19:52.

on the security of its neighbouring countries is causing the most

:19:53.:19:56.

enormous amount of pressure and a number of volcanic impressions,

:19:57.:20:00.

which are going on in the countries concerned. People simply will not

:20:01.:20:10.

wear it. I welcome the chance to debate this issue. Like the other

:20:11.:20:19.

member, I've disappointed how long it takes to bring it to chamber. --

:20:20.:20:26.

I am. Six months at the EU commission first asked for this

:20:27.:20:31.

debate, maybe even longer. Chair the committee has come through on some

:20:32.:20:37.

detail of the steps the committee has had to take in order to get this

:20:38.:20:46.

debate. On the 11th of December, the committee finally got an answer to

:20:47.:20:54.

some of the questions. Today, six days after his two legs a chance

:20:55.:21:01.

attended the government's mind that the deadline has passed. I find it

:21:02.:21:08.

impossible not to contest the government's willingness to cancel

:21:09.:21:12.

an entire day of business in the chamber to hold a debate that we

:21:13.:21:15.

wanted to hold after the bombing of Syria stop with. How good it should

:21:16.:21:24.

be doing more to help some of the millions of innocent victims of the

:21:25.:21:36.

bombs that have already fallen. I wonder whether he'd like to be

:21:37.:21:39.

slightly more precise with his wording. We are not bombing Syria,

:21:40.:21:44.

we are bombing Daesh in Syria. I think it will be very helpful if all

:21:45.:21:50.

members of the chamber would use those words so there is no

:21:51.:21:53.

misunderstanding of what we bolted on. -- posted on. I did actually,

:21:54.:22:05.

did make a point that people were talking about have already fled, or

:22:06.:22:11.

are in the process of fleeing from the conflict that is going on.

:22:12.:22:21.

Haven't taken... Who suggest that the moral responsibility of the UK

:22:22.:22:25.

is even greater than it was before. -- I would. We are now part of that

:22:26.:22:29.

war and bear a responsibility to help to pick up some of the

:22:30.:22:34.

consequences of that war and to do whatever we can to have. The SNP

:22:35.:22:41.

will can I get an entire endorsement to the government's decision to the

:22:42.:22:46.

proposal. Die because we believe the proposal are perfect. But because

:22:47.:22:56.

the proposals are an ill attempt to recognise that this crisis is far

:22:57.:23:02.

too big for anyone or two countries to cope with. It is far too

:23:03.:23:10.

important, literate life and death, to risk the chaos that would ensue

:23:11.:23:20.

if 27 different countries would be. Rebar had a taste what happens when

:23:21.:23:23.

individual countries unilaterally at a moments notice closed borders,

:23:24.:23:29.

open the borders. Off of them to some people, and not to others. That

:23:30.:23:33.

is how we end up with tens of thousands of people behind fences --

:23:34.:23:41.

Barb wire. That is what violence escalates. -- when. And a moral and

:23:42.:23:50.

compassionate response to what has been rightly described as the worst

:23:51.:23:54.

humanitarian crisis that we will ever witness. Kumasi as a crisis

:23:55.:24:02.

about protecting the victims of war, not about a crisis of immigration

:24:03.:24:08.

that has caused by the victims. Should be for the welfare of

:24:09.:24:16.

millions, authorities. Millions of citizens of this planet that we

:24:17.:24:19.

share a common humanity and to whom we owe a moral and legal duty to

:24:20.:24:26.

protect as far as we possibly can. Haven't taken a decision to move

:24:27.:24:33.

even a Paros part of that, done that in the UK, I would argue intercepted

:24:34.:24:38.

a moral responsibility to help secure the features of the victims

:24:39.:24:43.

of that war. And the numbers that we're speaking about truly

:24:44.:24:46.

breathtaking. We know that at least for the gay people have already fled

:24:47.:24:51.

Syria. Seven looked more have been displaced within their homeland. --

:24:52.:25:01.

4 million people. With the entire population of London losing

:25:02.:25:03.

everything, their homes destroyed, the families... Surely these people

:25:04.:25:12.

deserve the best future and the best support that we have. Given that the

:25:13.:25:22.

government on the vices that the UK military action as likely to last

:25:23.:25:26.

figures, this is not as a short-term problem that will be fixed with a

:25:27.:25:31.

short-term solution. Not enough that the old money for emergency aid. We

:25:32.:25:35.

had to be looking at massive infrastructure spending to provide

:25:36.:25:46.

million to help millions of people. That are simply not credible to

:25:47.:25:52.

suggest that three or four countries around the Mediterranean can be

:25:53.:25:55.

expected to provide all of that by themselves, even if that is a

:25:56.:25:58.

significant influx of cash from the UK and elsewhere. The Minister

:25:59.:26:08.

stated, unable to identify the countries and all of the Middle East

:26:09.:26:12.

that has been able to provide safety and access to the other essential

:26:13.:26:16.

services for refugees. Jordan, Lebanon, and Turkey. The Minister

:26:17.:26:23.

declined to say despite a direct question, the Salmon refugees the

:26:24.:26:25.

government thinks those countries can't realistically hold the. --

:26:26.:26:32.

can't realistically hold. I think it is around 4 million, but not to

:26:33.:26:38.

again no more. Expecting a race to provide the whole infrastructures to

:26:39.:26:42.

support all the refugees who have ended up there for a period of three

:26:43.:26:47.

gears, is simply unrealistic. Not just about the money, will not be

:26:48.:26:52.

possible for groups to produce infrastructure to look at that, to

:26:53.:26:55.

house, to educate the number of desperate refugees that are already

:26:56.:27:00.

trying to support. The government has his own reasons to draw the

:27:01.:27:05.

lines and to encourage us to think of these men, women, and children as

:27:06.:27:10.

willing economic migrants. Even suggesting some of them may be

:27:11.:27:18.

terrorist in disguise. These are not voluntary migrants. Did do not have

:27:19.:27:21.

volunteered to have the whole blown to pieces. That do not volunteer to

:27:22.:27:26.

have that family is killed. They have refugees who are playing for

:27:27.:27:29.

deadlines and the lives of the children. If they stay at home, the

:27:30.:27:34.

children will die. We have a more right to health. Humanitarian crisis

:27:35.:27:39.

in and around the Mediterranean shelters that that will purposely

:27:40.:27:46.

applied, we should look at the refugees... Hopefuls are not fit for

:27:47.:27:49.

purpose given the scale of what are experiencing now. Data designed to

:27:50.:27:54.

expect one country to cope with 60,000 migrants, they are not. To

:27:55.:28:02.

look after the welfare of hundreds of thousands refugees, and opinion

:28:03.:28:08.

of this every few months. I think it is reasonable to expect that the

:28:09.:28:12.

initial process of confirming identity security checks,

:28:13.:28:18.

registrations, of refugees to take place as close as possible to where

:28:19.:28:25.

the people have landed in the EU. Had to say I find is that phrase

:28:26.:28:31.

demeaning. Rather than a place opportunity to show groups of the

:28:32.:28:43.

kindest. The approach... Is one in principle we can support and I know

:28:44.:28:46.

that the government supports a. But if it is not done properly, and

:28:47.:28:50.

might as well not be done at all. For a lot of the last six months,...

:28:51.:28:59.

And the fact that that is happening in this continent is something of

:29:00.:29:03.

which every one of us should be utterly ashamed. Not because the

:29:04.:29:07.

agencies and volunteers don't care, but because they simply don't have

:29:08.:29:12.

the capacity and resources to do the past that affected the. Esalen have

:29:13.:29:17.

refugees have gone through the process, they then should be held to

:29:18.:29:21.

get to the destination as quickly as possible bisect means, legal means,

:29:22.:29:26.

and by dignified means. These are human beings with talking about

:29:27.:29:31.

something that needs to be done with the full cooperation between the

:29:32.:29:40.

countries of Europe,. Paradigm, one every aware we cannot support the

:29:41.:29:45.

government's recusal to be apart any of the options that have been put

:29:46.:29:49.

forward. I get an impression that the government is so anxious about

:29:50.:29:59.

persuading this supporters,... So important, that it would be

:30:00.:30:04.

compromised on, even if it prevents us from honouring the legal and

:30:05.:30:08.

moral obligations to be had to some of the most vulnerable and desperate

:30:09.:30:13.

citizens. I find it astonishing that the same people who less than two

:30:14.:30:18.

weeks ago work at Democrats for not showing solidarity with our allies,

:30:19.:30:26.

should not be so resistant to show solidarity and supporting and

:30:27.:30:31.

protecting innocent victims of war. The government is asking us to grew

:30:32.:30:35.

wheat with the decision not to take part in the EU skin, we believe that

:30:36.:30:39.

this decision is wrong and it was a bad decision taken for the bumpers

:30:40.:30:44.

of. Tonight's but will force the government to change his mind, but

:30:45.:30:48.

we believe there is a principle at stake here, which is important

:30:49.:30:51.

enough that we want to put on record and believes that the UK Government

:30:52.:30:55.

is failing to live up to this more obligation that for that reason we

:30:56.:30:58.

will be opposing the motion letter to my.

:30:59.:31:02.

I support the government's decision to exercise the opt out and am

:31:03.:31:09.

pleased that the government and official opposition agree that the

:31:10.:31:13.

United Kingdom should not be part of the Schengen system. Then please the

:31:14.:31:18.

opposition and the government wants to exercise this opt out. As an

:31:19.:31:25.

island nation with our neighbours, the Republic of Ireland, with the

:31:26.:31:31.

three countries of our printable island entirely surrounded by

:31:32.:31:35.

Niland, it clearly makes sense for the United Kingdom to have our own

:31:36.:31:41.

border arrangements. It is fundamental to a sovereign people in

:31:42.:31:46.

a sovereign parliament that one of the decisions we should be automated

:31:47.:31:48.

for ourselves is who we invite in and on what terms we invite them in

:31:49.:31:54.

to become citizens of our country. It is a great privilege to be a

:31:55.:31:59.

citizen of our country, brings the benefits and responsibilities and

:32:00.:32:01.

surely that is something that this Parliament should wish to make with

:32:02.:32:06.

them government offering guidance and leadership so that we can ensure

:32:07.:32:10.

that we are in control of this fundamental point. The government in

:32:11.:32:16.

its answer to interventions for my right honourable friend the

:32:17.:32:20.

Minister's contribution so far has indicated that even though we have

:32:21.:32:24.

opted ourselves out of this particular proposal for allocating

:32:25.:32:30.

refugees and other recent arrivals in the European Union under a

:32:31.:32:35.

system, we are still in a position where what they do with their

:32:36.:32:40.

external frontier in Shengen does matter to us, the United Kingdom.

:32:41.:32:48.

All the time we remain under the view of the European Union we have

:32:49.:32:53.

to accept the roles. That means that any other part of the European Union

:32:54.:32:57.

accepts people in, then in due course, they will be eligible to

:32:58.:33:00.

move to the United Kingdom so that we are interested directly in how

:33:01.:33:08.

they'd conduct themselves and what they wish to do in terms of inviting

:33:09.:33:13.

people inside. We are interested in their policy that we opted out of

:33:14.:33:17.

because the British Government is nonetheless agreed to spend money

:33:18.:33:27.

and resources to help police, the common exterior of the Schengen area

:33:28.:33:30.

and we have resources to tackle some part of the desperate problem they

:33:31.:33:38.

EU migration problem, it crisis has caused. -- then need rescuing by

:33:39.:33:46.

Royal Navy and other royal contingents. Does he have any idea,

:33:47.:33:54.

maybe he could invite the Minister to consider the extent to which we

:33:55.:34:00.

will pay a share of the costs he just referred to because as I

:34:01.:34:05.

understand it, it could be as much as ?150 million, but because of the

:34:06.:34:12.

nature of the cost of providing for Schengen relocation which is getting

:34:13.:34:16.

to be ever increasing, therefore presuming the amount would go up? I

:34:17.:34:22.

think that is an important issue that the chairman of the scrutiny

:34:23.:34:26.

committee has rightly raised. I would also like to say that I think

:34:27.:34:37.

it is a disgrace that our rich and resourceful continent is facing this

:34:38.:34:43.

huge crisis on the scale that we now see it, with many refugees and

:34:44.:34:50.

economic migrants arriving. And the system is unable to cope with them.

:34:51.:34:54.

May I ask why that is, and these people that do not wish to see these

:34:55.:35:00.

people these hazardous journeys and do not feel it is decent the way

:35:01.:35:04.

European policy is impacting on them and we need to influence our

:35:05.:35:08.

partners in the European Union to do something better. Again, I find

:35:09.:35:11.

myself in complete agreement with the government, I think the

:35:12.:35:15.

government is right that the right thing to do for refugees is to work

:35:16.:35:20.

with the United Nations and our partners to make sure there is a

:35:21.:35:23.

safe place of refuge near to the place they have fled from in the

:35:24.:35:29.

first instance, and they are, to talk to them and consider who would

:35:30.:35:32.

like to come to countries in Europe and elsewhere and on what basis we

:35:33.:35:39.

would admit people from those camps. That surely is the humane way to do

:35:40.:35:46.

it. That obviates the need to take people on the hazardous journeys and

:35:47.:35:49.

expensive journeys so that only the richest and the fittest can

:35:50.:35:54.

undertake those journeys and discovered that the hazards become

:35:55.:35:58.

too great and they may lose their lives and need rescuing from the

:35:59.:36:02.

Mediterranean. Surely the money we are spending rescuing people would

:36:03.:36:06.

be better spent on an orderly system closer to where they are fleeing

:36:07.:36:11.

from and helping them get legal transport to countries of their

:36:12.:36:15.

choice where they have been offered that facility. It would also mean

:36:16.:36:20.

that we would make clearer and better distinctions between those

:36:21.:36:23.

who are economic migrants and those who are genuine refugees. There are

:36:24.:36:26.

a lot of genuine refugees from a country like Syria, different

:36:27.:36:33.

considerations to how we should reply and to economic migrants

:36:34.:36:36.

coming from a range of Eastern European and African countries at

:36:37.:36:45.

the same time. I wonder, given the honourable gentleman's comments if

:36:46.:36:49.

he had anything further to add to the unaccompanied children arriving

:36:50.:36:55.

in Europe who appear to be extremely vulnerable and in need of

:36:56.:37:00.

assistance? Of course, our hearts go out to them and it should not be

:37:01.:37:06.

happening. It is only happening because adults have allowed it to

:37:07.:37:13.

happen or have made it happen. Adults somewhere in the process have

:37:14.:37:21.

persuaded the children to do it or not to do it and put them in the

:37:22.:37:24.

hands of traffickers who may then been that might be very destructive

:37:25.:37:30.

with their lives. The United Kingdom is quite large but we cannot get

:37:31.:37:36.

into the details of all of those parents, aunts, and uncles who

:37:37.:37:39.

committed these children to these hazardous journeys. There are adults

:37:40.:37:51.

who should have been... Surely in the European Union with all of these

:37:52.:37:54.

powerful rich countries could do a better job in coming up with some

:37:55.:38:00.

orderly way of handing help and assistance in a sensible way to

:38:01.:38:05.

those who are genuine refugees and are being forced out of their

:38:06.:38:12.

war-torn country or area by civil wars or violence and also sending a

:38:13.:38:15.

clear message to those who are economic migrants by Mike migrants

:38:16.:38:19.

that there is an orderly system for that, they are not welcome at they

:38:20.:38:23.

turn up as a legal, illegal migrants, they should go through a

:38:24.:38:26.

proper process in the country they are coming from or in a place

:38:27.:38:29.

adjacent to where they're coming from if they have already started on

:38:30.:38:33.

their journey. That it would be a better way of doing it. I feel like

:38:34.:38:41.

Angela Merkel for the best of reasons, because she felt very sorry

:38:42.:38:44.

for these peoples for my people suggest that many of them should

:38:45.:38:48.

turn up. I think it compounded the problem and far from being a caring

:38:49.:38:52.

solution, it actually meant that many thousands more people committed

:38:53.:38:55.

themselves to hazardous journeys only defined in the end when they

:38:56.:39:00.

arrived that other countries in the European Union did not have the same

:39:01.:39:03.

view as Angela Merkel, the policy was not clear, that certain borders

:39:04.:39:10.

were shut in a rather unpleasant way with razor wire and high fences

:39:11.:39:13.

because the net to Mike numbers were too great and cannot be handled. So,

:39:14.:39:20.

I support this particular for Pozo and would urge the government to do

:39:21.:39:22.

far more with our partners to try and persuade them, the EU policy is

:39:23.:39:28.

letting down the refugees and migrants, letting down the Member

:39:29.:39:35.

States and the inhabitants of the European Union, but it is a vital

:39:36.:39:40.

interest to us, because we want the EU to have a more caring policy. But

:39:41.:39:46.

also because policy is taken in other countries can't come to have a

:39:47.:39:52.

direct up, impact on our our own own migration policy as a member of this

:39:53.:39:56.

body as part of the freedom of movement provisions. But I do think

:39:57.:40:02.

that many people watching these awful tragedies unfold on their

:40:03.:40:05.

televisions, reading their newspapers and even perhaps hearing

:40:06.:40:08.

some of our debates here will come to the conclusion that as an island

:40:09.:40:14.

nation, we can control and should control our own borders and if we do

:40:15.:40:20.

it humanely in the European Union is doing and mainly for Brent, that is

:40:21.:40:28.

the best answer. I will not speak for long but I think it is important

:40:29.:40:34.

to say something about this. I support my honourable friend on the

:40:35.:40:41.

front bench on the behaving in a humane way towards migrants and the

:40:42.:40:46.

small numbers that are currently being allowed into our country. I do

:40:47.:40:54.

believe like him that we should take more of these desperate people into

:40:55.:40:58.

our country from areas where they risk death on a daily basis. That is

:40:59.:41:07.

the first point. Secondly, I support the government's position, I think

:41:08.:41:11.

it is right that these countries should be able to have their own

:41:12.:41:19.

controls, but if other countries in the European Union ought to be able

:41:20.:41:22.

to control their own borders as well. Of course that is what has

:41:23.:41:30.

caused the enormous row that the honourable member from the scrutiny

:41:31.:41:34.

committee and member from Stone talked about. I do believe myself

:41:35.:41:41.

that it is a fundamental component in democracy that people control

:41:42.:41:47.

their own borders, and the people that come in their country.

:41:48.:41:51.

Sometimes we do not do that but on the other hand it is fundamental

:41:52.:41:57.

that borders do matter, we try to eliminate borders in pursuit of some

:41:58.:42:04.

superstate which is effectively what is happening in the European Union,

:42:05.:42:07.

I think it is a mistake and it will come to a sticky end in the end I

:42:08.:42:14.

believe. It is possible that tensions are rising very strongly at

:42:15.:42:17.

the moment. But when it comes to allocating refugees to different

:42:18.:42:21.

countries, I mentioned earlier on in the intervention that they may not

:42:22.:42:24.

want to go to the countries they are being allocated to. There is also,

:42:25.:42:29.

if they are allocated to countries they do not want to go to, they will

:42:30.:42:33.

not be made welcome and will not be cared for, may not be well treated

:42:34.:42:37.

when they get there so there is another serious problem. Having a

:42:38.:42:46.

much more sensible way of helping refugees go to places where they are

:42:47.:42:49.

going to have some kind of welcome where they will be welcomed and

:42:50.:42:53.

looked after, where they want to go, I think that would be much more

:42:54.:42:57.

sensible than having an allocation policy. We can do this, but I do

:42:58.:43:07.

think other countries in the European Union should take the same

:43:08.:43:12.

position that we are. I think it has been a mistake, and if we want to

:43:13.:43:19.

recruit people from other countries with skills we need, that is fine.

:43:20.:43:24.

That can be done on a temporary or permanent basis but it should be a

:43:25.:43:28.

choice, not the choice of some supernatural body, this is the rules

:43:29.:43:35.

of our club. And you ought to accept those rules, I do not accept those

:43:36.:43:39.

roles, and I think many people in Britain do not accept those rules.

:43:40.:43:45.

There is a conflict between the need to ensure that we behave in a humane

:43:46.:43:50.

way than other people, and humanitarian actions are something

:43:51.:43:55.

we all admire and want to adopt ourselves. But, when you get very

:43:56.:44:02.

large substantial unregulated movements of people, I'm talking

:44:03.:44:09.

about large movements, this can mitigate against those rules. There

:44:10.:44:14.

comes a point when people say we cannot go. Destabilising mass of

:44:15.:44:20.

population movements are not good for humane behaviour. In the 19th

:44:21.:44:26.

century we had vast open spaces in the United States, South America,

:44:27.:44:32.

Australia, and elsewhere, and they were returning people because they

:44:33.:44:39.

needed people, it was not a problem. Indeed, we recruited people

:44:40.:44:41.

ourselves from Ireland in particular, from elsewhere as well.

:44:42.:44:47.

We have been humane in certain immigrations, I remember when I was

:44:48.:44:52.

younger in the 1960s, it was the Uganda nations were being threatened

:44:53.:44:58.

very seriously threatened. We accepted them into our country and

:44:59.:45:02.

indeed we have members of our own house now who are descended from

:45:03.:45:07.

that population and they have made a massive conjuration to our society

:45:08.:45:11.

so we have behaved well in the past, when these movements become so large

:45:12.:45:17.

and they are seemingly unstoppable, I think our humanity starts to break

:45:18.:45:27.

down. Humanity starts to break down, saying we cannot cope, there is a

:45:28.:45:31.

desperate housing prices, and we have to be able to say... He has a

:45:32.:45:41.

point but could he tell us if Dean is going destabilising anything --

:45:42.:45:51.

how could it destabilise anything? I have said that as my honourable

:45:52.:45:57.

friend on the front bench is said, we should be accepting more people

:45:58.:46:02.

from Syria and I think we should be doing that in doing our part in

:46:03.:46:09.

helping refugees except their terrible situation. -- escape. That

:46:10.:46:17.

being said, we are not going to have an open border policy where large

:46:18.:46:24.

numbers of people come through, I think this causes political

:46:25.:46:30.

destabilisation and I think it would not be good. In Germany where the

:46:31.:46:34.

population was probably because of the birth rate, they have indeed

:46:35.:46:40.

innate successful industrial company, country, ours is increasing

:46:41.:46:48.

rapidly, we could rapidly overtake Germany to become the largest

:46:49.:46:54.

population, largest country in population in the European Union. We

:46:55.:46:58.

are in a very different situation than Germany, if we had a shortage

:46:59.:47:02.

and lots of space, lots of vacant housing as well, we would be wanting

:47:03.:47:10.

to recruit more people. Has he himself also heard that our own

:47:11.:47:14.

population is growing exponentially and in fact, we are going up to

:47:15.:47:21.

around 70 million quite soon. And that the increase is way beyond the

:47:22.:47:27.

space and capacity of the United Kingdom expenditure? I do not want

:47:28.:47:35.

to get into number, specifically, but our population is increasing

:47:36.:47:38.

substantially, the German population is falling and other populations are

:47:39.:47:46.

falling. They will no doubt want to recruit more people to make sure

:47:47.:47:52.

that they have sufficient young and energetic people to make their

:47:53.:47:57.

economies carry on working well. Doctors Without Borders estimates

:47:58.:48:04.

that 466,000 people have arrived in the shores of lust was, their

:48:05.:48:08.

population is around 86,000, and we have a responsibility to help those

:48:09.:48:12.

people who cannot possibly deal with that level of new people arriving in

:48:13.:48:18.

their country? I said that I agree that we should take more, we should

:48:19.:48:21.

be doing more to help those refugees. And I do not think that

:48:22.:48:29.

allocating in a compulsory wait to countries across the European Union

:48:30.:48:34.

or indeed having a free flow of people, migrants across the

:48:35.:48:39.

continent would be a sensible way. I think in the end I would -- it would

:48:40.:48:47.

be an intimate way of looking after people. I think the government is

:48:48.:48:51.

right in this occasion, and I hope people agree, but I think the

:48:52.:48:59.

government are all together on this one. I support them. But at the same

:49:00.:49:04.

time, in the longer term I think we have to look to the restoration of

:49:05.:49:09.

sensible border controls within the European Union and between Member

:49:10.:49:13.

States and not just breaking down those borders and illuminating them

:49:14.:49:28.

and having an indefensible border. I support the government as well

:49:29.:49:33.

today, there seems to be amazing levels of support which is always

:49:34.:49:37.

quite dangerous but it is very refreshing that the touring National

:49:38.:49:42.

Party are here in force to make sure these matters are properly debated

:49:43.:49:48.

and scrutinised as being part of carried out effectively stopping the

:49:49.:49:52.

reason I support this is because the European Union has made a hash of

:49:53.:49:59.

it, I... Who in glorious understatement said that scheme of

:50:00.:50:06.

European Union was not working as anticipated, I thought that was

:50:07.:50:11.

under par where at the end of the war Japan said the board situation

:50:12.:50:15.

did not develop the Japan's advantage. When you think according

:50:16.:50:24.

to the Daily Express, 184 people out of 160,000 have been relocated, that

:50:25.:50:28.

is a failure even by the terms of the European Union to make union. It

:50:29.:50:36.

was hotly opposed by elected governments, opposed by qualified

:50:37.:50:42.

majority voting, we fortunately have a thing that we used but what

:50:43.:50:47.

underlies this policy is... I disagree with the honourable

:50:48.:50:52.

gentleman who made a part of powerful speech about mankind in

:50:53.:50:59.

general and I accept that. I think the duty to refugees is fundamental,

:51:00.:51:03.

tremendously important and is something the United Kingdom has

:51:04.:51:08.

done for centuries. But the question then is how do you do this well and

:51:09.:51:12.

how you do it effectively and how you preserve life that you actually

:51:13.:51:19.

save people. It seems to me that the European Union has made the

:51:20.:51:21.

situation worse to the refugees themselves. Although the 900,000 who

:51:22.:51:29.

have come by boat to the shores of the European Union over the last

:51:30.:51:36.

year are in 2015, 3621 have either died or gone missing, the terrible

:51:37.:51:42.

events in the Mediterranean in 2014 have gone farther to say that we

:51:43.:51:47.

have not -- cannot allow the Mediterranean and to become a

:51:48.:51:52.

graveyard. We have high hopes that the European... His idea that the

:51:53.:52:00.

people getting into the boundaries of the European Union will get

:52:01.:52:03.

citizenship, but if they cannot get that, there is nothing that will be

:52:04.:52:08.

done for them. That seems to me to encourage people to to take these

:52:09.:52:13.

crazy risks which have led to the tragedies so the policy of the

:52:14.:52:18.

European Union itself is creating dangers for refugees and the

:52:19.:52:23.

refugees who have come are not the halt in the lane but are the fittest

:52:24.:52:29.

and the most able to take the risks involved in trying to cross the sea

:52:30.:52:33.

to come to the European Union. So what we have seen is that 70% of the

:52:34.:52:39.

refugees have come European Union are in fact men, primarily young

:52:40.:52:46.

men. To set up a system that creates incentives that lead to people to

:52:47.:52:50.

take foolish risks to come here in the first place, who are then not

:52:51.:52:56.

the people who are most at risk, the children, elderly, and frail, but

:52:57.:53:02.

they are left behind because if you are fleeing from your risky country,

:53:03.:53:06.

the European union would not let. It is this government that has... I

:53:07.:53:14.

think the 20,000 over five years is absolutely a step in the right

:53:15.:53:17.

direction, but of course we should be doing more. We should think of

:53:18.:53:22.

how many we take from the European Union under the free movement of the

:53:23.:53:29.

people. In the year to March 2015 we took migrants in the European Union,

:53:30.:53:36.

183,000 people who are not in risk of persecution or fear of their

:53:37.:53:39.

lives, they wanted to come here for the most noble reason and honourable

:53:40.:53:43.

reason, they wanted to enter the condition of themselves and their

:53:44.:53:47.

families. They moved halfway across the continent to do that and that is

:53:48.:53:51.

something which I admire hugely. I think it is a conservative thing to

:53:52.:53:55.

do to wish to better yourself and to take that risk, it is the thing

:53:56.:54:00.

entrepreneurs do. But there are economic migrants not refugees.

:54:01.:54:05.

Because we take so maybe we'll from the European Union under the guise

:54:06.:54:09.

of the free movement of people, when it comes to people taking that are

:54:10.:54:15.

genuine risk of life, we take 4000 a year, we take 4000 a year from Syria

:54:16.:54:23.

who may die if they do not escape. We take 182,000 because we believe

:54:24.:54:27.

in this principle of European citizenship and anyone who wants to

:54:28.:54:33.

come here is welcomed. This is not only undesirable and domestic

:54:34.:54:38.

political terms, it is undesirable in moral terms because we are not

:54:39.:54:42.

helping those who are most in need, we are helping those who do nine

:54:43.:54:46.

fact need our help and support. We are helping those who are safe

:54:47.:54:51.

rather than being generous to those who are at risk. It seems to me a

:54:52.:54:55.

fundamental failing of the European Union because instead, of getting

:54:56.:55:01.

aid to the refugees it encourages people to take unwarranted risks and

:55:02.:55:04.

gives benefits to those who are already safe. Why do I stick to the

:55:05.:55:11.

number of 183,000, what is the context of that? It is a limit to

:55:12.:55:18.

the number of people than any country will take in any one year.

:55:19.:55:22.

Not because freedom is a bad thing in itself, but because the society

:55:23.:55:29.

to which people can move cannot operate after a certain level. There

:55:30.:55:34.

are infrastructure, hospitals, but also there is not the capacity of

:55:35.:55:39.

society to absorb very large numbers at one point. They need to be

:55:40.:55:43.

standard, they need to come over a much longer period of time.

:55:44.:55:47.

Therefore if we have these very large numbers coming from countries

:55:48.:55:52.

that are safe, inevitably we have to be mean to the numbers that we

:55:53.:55:56.

ourselves are able to control because they do not benefit from the

:55:57.:56:00.

treaty, they do not benefit from that idea of free movement of people

:56:01.:56:02.

within the European Union. Wrong. And as we in our

:56:03.:56:16.

renegotiation are of people and what we are doing. All we're doing is

:56:17.:56:23.

muddling about with a few benefits. They come for the noble reason, that

:56:24.:56:27.

inspirational pretend that they want to make the lives and allies their

:56:28.:56:31.

families better. That is why they come. With Governor Brown with that,

:56:32.:56:39.

rather than thinking what the real problem is. The real problem is that

:56:40.:56:42.

the skill of the immigration that comes from the EU. It is as the

:56:43.:56:49.

honourable Joe took time out, having a free-for-all to this country does

:56:50.:56:55.

not work for our democracy. Are both us, but did not want to. -- are

:56:56.:57:02.

focus. Even asked to get this back to domestic control. Instead, they

:57:03.:57:08.

do not often to one part, of many parts of things. Won't have any

:57:09.:57:15.

grade that affect. The best argument that we have about the 800,000 of

:57:16.:57:20.

that Mrs. Merkel is welcome in. Why will they not come here? Apparently,

:57:21.:57:28.

our ambassador to Germany has reported to menaces that we do not

:57:29.:57:31.

need to worry that they will compare to cut the Germans are slow at

:57:32.:57:36.

processing citizenship application. Isn't that just lucky? That this low

:57:37.:57:44.

German democracy, when it comes to processing citizenship applications,

:57:45.:57:47.

they might take ten years. So we will not get 100,000 today or

:57:48.:57:52.

tomorrow, but we will give them the election after next. That I'm afraid

:57:53.:57:55.

it's what the government is failing the British people. Is opting out of

:57:56.:58:03.

one thing, but has left the big major problem at the centre of our

:58:04.:58:12.

difficulty. 800,000 people have settled in Germany for ten years,

:58:13.:58:16.

why is it that there are suddenly going to come to the UK at the end

:58:17.:58:22.

of that period with new German citizenship? The amount of

:58:23.:58:26.

immigration that we have seen to this country from the EU shows that

:58:27.:58:29.

we are a great magnet. Everyone seems to want to come to the UK,

:58:30.:58:38.

even to the glories of Scotland. Is extraordinary. I am proud of this. I

:58:39.:58:43.

love the fact that people all bribed world that the best place to live in

:58:44.:58:49.

the UK of Great Britain. Is something we should fill, and give

:58:50.:58:52.

us a glow of pride about the success of our nations of this post

:58:53.:58:57.

conservative government that is good because peace and prosperity. Being

:58:58.:59:06.

a part of the EU, have a lot reported that British citizens can

:59:07.:59:10.

also go and live in Europe, and can go back and forth? I accept that.

:59:11.:59:17.

The bridge and that the British go and live abroad and I welcome abroad

:59:18.:59:23.

is because most of them who go abroad are mostly well-off, most of

:59:24.:59:26.

the tide and take a lot of income is poorer European countries to happen

:59:27.:59:32.

to have a list of more sunshine. I quite understand it is very much the

:59:33.:59:39.

Florida effect that people want to go the southern European countries,

:59:40.:59:42.

but they take wealth with them. Which would be welcomed even if we

:59:43.:59:46.

were not members of the EU. Because poor countries always want to

:59:47.:59:50.

attract rich migrants. Rich countries cannot take an unlimited

:59:51.:59:57.

number of poor migrants and that is why we should focus on the most

:59:58.:00:01.

needed, the real refugees of the one still in Syria. And cut back on

:00:02.:00:10.

hundred 83,000 mark migrants coming from the EU. With the government

:00:11.:00:13.

does that, they will deserve much more support than the support they

:00:14.:00:21.

will get today. -- 183,000. Jennifer has a consequence of the route by

:00:22.:00:26.

which this doctor has come today. That much of the debate has focused

:00:27.:00:35.

on the constitutional aspect of the EU of some of the produce. One

:00:36.:00:38.

affect the debate out of the about how we as a country respond to what

:00:39.:00:44.

others have already described as being one of the remarkable and

:00:45.:00:49.

unprecedented humanitarian crisis to hit hit Europe since the end of the

:00:50.:00:58.

Second World War. A number of members have referred to the timing

:00:59.:01:03.

of the debate tonight. I shared a concern of those who have pointed

:01:04.:01:09.

out that the matter brought before the House at that time will affect,

:01:10.:01:14.

the decision has already been made. Surely, there is a more human aspect

:01:15.:01:22.

of the timing of this. It is that winter is coming. Those who have

:01:23.:01:29.

made the journey to Europe, we've heard reference to the quite

:01:30.:01:37.

remarkable numbers, are not going to suffer real hardship as a

:01:38.:01:41.

consequence of that. -- now. Is also a part that the developers are

:01:42.:01:47.

doing, that people are going to keep coming. We're not going to see the

:01:48.:01:54.

demolition of those making the journey that we have seen in recent

:01:55.:02:01.

years. -- diminish. Is why having so much to the position that the

:02:02.:02:08.

government has taken. As members of the S and T opted to buy the house

:02:09.:02:14.

tonight, -- SNP, the Liberal Democrats will be with them. Like

:02:15.:02:21.

them, but it does the right thing to do, not some reservations I might

:02:22.:02:29.

have about the nature of the ever enriched that are being debated. It

:02:30.:02:34.

is most reflecting that that the share loan, 950,000 people have

:02:35.:02:41.

Friday and Europe. Risking their lives in order to get his. --

:02:42.:02:47.

arrived. They do not come because they are the able once. They come

:02:48.:02:54.

because they are desperate. It is surely a consequence of that

:02:55.:02:58.

desperation that we should have a humanitarian response to what. The

:02:59.:03:02.

response has come from Mrs. Merkel in Germany. It was not because of

:03:03.:03:07.

the people coming, it was a response to these people coming. It is worth

:03:08.:03:15.

considering also what the consequences of the lack of European

:03:16.:03:19.

action has been. And a concerted European action to that challenge.

:03:20.:03:26.

Looked at the figures for those who have had to take refugees on content

:03:27.:03:34.

Europe. In Hungary, it had come from the not highest level of asylum

:03:35.:03:41.

applications to being second, only behind Germany. While the UK has

:03:42.:03:46.

gone from having the seventh highest level, an out set 17th when break in

:03:47.:03:57.

terms of asylum applicants per head. On the Minister opened the case, he

:03:58.:04:02.

did not really spend much time to be said of the Government's free to

:04:03.:04:07.

make. But we know from... That they have spoken of a Poole factor of

:04:08.:04:17.

them. Is a something which has been considered the Lord select

:04:18.:04:18.

committee. Before considering the reasons why

:04:19.:04:32.

they came to that conclusion. They say, we heard arguments that the

:04:33.:04:36.

governments concerned that the proposal is a Poole factor, which

:04:37.:04:40.

would encourage further migration to the EU was not supported by

:04:41.:04:45.

evidence. The markets affected by the present proposal does the login

:04:46.:04:50.

to nationality for which international protection is on

:04:51.:04:53.

average granted and at least 75% of cases. At present, though some

:04:54.:05:01.

Syria, Iraq, the situation in all of these countries is dire. Is clear

:05:02.:05:05.

that the vast majority of those leaving these countries are links of

:05:06.:05:10.

awards or the imminent threat of persecution. This is underlined for

:05:11.:05:14.

instance by the presence of millions of Syrian refugees in camps in

:05:15.:05:19.

Jordan and Lebanon. The government's of argument that relocation of

:05:20.:05:24.

40,000 mu. , who have wished its illegal somehow encourage more to be

:05:25.:05:28.

the countries of origin is therefore unconvincing. The bottom of the

:05:29.:05:38.

expression to my Honorable friend, a somewhat masterful understatement.

:05:39.:05:43.

What are the elements that could produce the safe Routes and the

:05:44.:05:51.

humanitarian precipice? We need to extend the family reunion rules.

:05:52.:05:57.

Need to allow more people family of the UK to come back safely. Consider

:05:58.:06:03.

what actually pays to operate the rules as they exist. It means a

:06:04.:06:07.

surrogate father, granted asylum in the UK would be allowed to bring his

:06:08.:06:12.

wife and younger children. -- Syrian. If he had an elder

:06:13.:06:18.

daughter,, she would not be able to compare and her parents wouldn't

:06:19.:06:21.

would be forced with the choice of leaving her behind or seeking to

:06:22.:06:26.

place mothers to bring her to the UK. In either scenario, she is left

:06:27.:06:33.

at a grave risk. The priority for my friends and myself is to bring 3000

:06:34.:06:39.

unaccompanied refugees minus who have preached Europe. Do something

:06:40.:06:44.

that has been the ongoing dialogue between my party and my party leader

:06:45.:06:48.

and the Prime Minister. If there is an opportunity at the end of this

:06:49.:06:51.

debate, we would want to hear what progress is being made on this. We

:06:52.:06:56.

must as a matter as a emergency extend resettlement schemes. 20,000

:06:57.:07:02.

refugees over five years is a drop in the ocean. We can and should be

:07:03.:07:08.

doing more to take those vulnerable Syrian refugees, what are now facing

:07:09.:07:14.

a bitterly cold winter in the camps in Syria's neighbouring country and

:07:15.:07:21.

other parts of Europe. Canada division, Liberal Democrats will be

:07:22.:07:29.

BPS MP this evening. -- SNP. Was certainly had a number of important

:07:30.:07:33.

ports that somewhat had strayed more widely than the specific measures in

:07:34.:07:41.

relation to relocation. In some ways, we may see some of these

:07:42.:07:44.

issues of rising in the debate to follow. I would underlie to the

:07:45.:07:49.

house that we will continue to work with your opinion partners to

:07:50.:07:52.

develop and implement sustainable and copper has a solution that will

:07:53.:07:56.

allow people to little up to the their home country or in countries

:07:57.:08:02.

of first asylum. And I just do, relocation should not be the

:08:03.:08:05.

response in respect of the. The government has been fairly clear

:08:06.:08:09.

that the UK will not take part in it and urged the EU to concentrate on

:08:10.:08:15.

actions will cause is, to control illegal migration and tackle abuse,

:08:16.:08:21.

not just those that... We have also been very clear that despite

:08:22.:08:25.

weaknesses in the Dublin arrangement, which we agreed and Eve

:08:26.:08:28.

were formed, is underlined principles remain sound with member

:08:29.:08:32.

states taking full responsibility for the offence functioning of the

:08:33.:08:38.

own border and asylum system. In our discussions with the EU, we have

:08:39.:08:41.

been measured and constructed while promoting and defending them eat --

:08:42.:08:48.

UK interest. Our approach was busted in these Post humanitarians and on

:08:49.:08:52.

the addition of solidarity, I was undermine the support that this

:08:53.:08:56.

country has given to the EU asylum support of this to provide that

:08:57.:09:00.

five-month support to your poll, are such a rescue operation, our defence

:09:01.:09:07.

plants. To our approach in relation to the settlement and as well as the

:09:08.:09:13.

assistance which has been provided. Under all that work, that measures

:09:14.:09:16.

should not increase the factors that undermine the principle that title

:09:17.:09:19.

should be shot in the first safe country and therefore, I urge the

:09:20.:09:23.

House to support the government motion. Question is as on the order

:09:24.:09:37.

paper. On the contrary. Division, clear the lobby!

:09:38.:11:05.

Order! . Tellis of the ayes. -- Tellis. To look for the no.

:11:06.:17:41.

Order! Order! The ayes to be right, 274. The noes to the left, 52. The

:17:42.:20:36.

ayes to the bright, 274. The noes to the left, 52. The ayes have it! The

:20:37.:20:48.

ayes have it! Unlock! We now come to motion number three. On your opinion

:20:49.:20:56.

agenda on migrations. I have to inform the House that Mr Speaker has

:20:57.:21:00.

not selected the amendment in the name of Douglas Carswell. Ministered

:21:01.:21:11.

to move the motion. The debate today offers no important opportunity to

:21:12.:21:15.

look at the range of measures that are being proposed the situation.

:21:16.:21:22.

The first of the documents listed on the motion this evening of European

:21:23.:21:28.

agenda was published on the 15th of May. Is thought to provide a

:21:29.:21:32.

blueprint to adjust the situation by outlining an overview of the various

:21:33.:21:36.

measures available to the EU. Is fair to say that subsequent

:21:37.:21:39.

documents listed for the most part provide the detail of that

:21:40.:21:42.

blueprint. The government supports many aspects of the agenda, we

:21:43.:21:46.

agreed there should be good or effective joint action of returns

:21:47.:21:50.

and against people smugglers. He favours further cooperation

:21:51.:22:01.

with the countries as well as more effective management to the external

:22:02.:22:05.

border. We have continued to press our European partners on these

:22:06.:22:07.

parts, both before and since the publication of the commissions

:22:08.:22:08.

communication. Who've also welcomed the proposals against smugglers. The

:22:09.:22:11.

back of again profiting from the crisis of people smuggling including

:22:12.:22:17.

hats the process with international partners. We support the strategic

:22:18.:22:23.

priorities outlined. I wonder if he agrees with me that it method well

:22:24.:22:33.

-- does not sit well with Miss Margot, should be criticising the

:22:34.:22:37.

Kerry, who have done their to implement the work of reference that

:22:38.:22:42.

they were required to do to secure their border, which is the European

:22:43.:22:47.

border. I wonder if the has had opportunity to speak to Mrs. Merkel

:22:48.:22:53.

to say that she should be supporting the Hungarians, not attacking them.

:22:54.:23:00.

As he knows, we are not part of shaking, therefore the operation of

:23:01.:23:04.

respect to those internal arrangements -- Schengen. As we

:23:05.:23:10.

debate in the previous debate, I think what happens on the external

:23:11.:23:12.

border is important and why we have sought to support context and a

:23:13.:23:18.

number of its activities given the impact that potentially has on us in

:23:19.:23:22.

the UK. Is also in many respects looking at that approach off because

:23:23.:23:29.

of the European border, how the subsequent Council decision on the

:23:30.:23:33.

EU military operation in the sub Mediterranean has been a positive

:23:34.:23:37.

step and join efforts to break the business model of people smugglers.

:23:38.:23:41.

One which is at the UK pop metal support. On the 7th of October, it

:23:42.:23:48.

moved interface to. It was renamed... The purpose of operations

:23:49.:23:51.

of various attack of the human smugglers and traffickers disrupting

:23:52.:23:56.

this that this model was traced to carry explicitly and a lost another.

:23:57.:24:00.

Who must not forget operation is on one part of the governments's plan.

:24:01.:24:07.

Dismay, the UK has had over 9000 miles of the Mediterranean. The last

:24:08.:24:11.

document listed, at been broadly welcomed by political leaders across

:24:12.:24:18.

the EU and was subject of a EU Turkey summit on the 29th of

:24:19.:24:20.

November. The government shares the view that plan of the sky is needed

:24:21.:24:25.

to ease the burden on Turkey while providing uncontrolled migrations to

:24:26.:24:29.

the EU. Turkey is a key relationship partner for the EU and as a country

:24:30.:24:34.

would the UK has had close cooperation for some time. Also

:24:35.:24:37.

played a pivotal role in the migration crisis. I get why. -- I

:24:38.:24:50.

get why. The sequences can say that there might be summed this genuine

:24:51.:24:53.

tea and oppression of Turkey in this context given the fact that there

:24:54.:24:57.

are so many problems that we have seen recently have come to Turkey

:24:58.:24:58.

was . I think it is important we look at

:24:59.:25:09.

the action plans to provide, an overarching response to the

:25:10.:25:13.

challenges that we see. At about Turkey as an active partner. That

:25:14.:25:16.

means working within Turkey and alongside them. It is important to

:25:17.:25:23.

recognise and support Turkey's efforts and hosting over to move

:25:24.:25:26.

against Syria and refugees. Up it is important that we continue to retain

:25:27.:25:35.

that focus. -- 2 million refugees. Part of an overarching package to

:25:36.:25:37.

insist that the efforts that are taking place in Turkey. I do

:25:38.:25:44.

underline the important measures that the Prime Minister had doubts

:25:45.:25:49.

as part of our responsibilities. That the UK will reset the 20,000 of

:25:50.:25:53.

the most vulnerable considering refugees over the next five years. I

:25:54.:25:57.

can say for the house that we remain on track to resettle 1000 before

:25:58.:26:02.

Christmas, building on a previous game. It is neither desirable to

:26:03.:26:06.

meet the needs of all those internally within the UK,... That is

:26:07.:26:12.

why the government place such an emphasis on supporting protection

:26:13.:26:16.

within refugee breaches of origin. We have committed another 100

:26:17.:26:26.

million pounds funding. The governments consistent focus has

:26:27.:26:29.

been a on a comprehensive and sustainable solution to the refugee

:26:30.:26:32.

crisis. The Prime Minister continued to emphasise the need for the UK to

:26:33.:26:37.

do with the crisis, not just response to its consequences. Is

:26:38.:26:41.

terrific, that means working with international communities to bring

:26:42.:26:44.

an end to the conflict there into the feed Daesh. The recent

:26:45.:26:49.

development of a... Following talks with a positive addition. -- the

:26:50.:26:55.

feed Daesh. This could be an important step towards a solution

:26:56.:26:58.

history and therefore part of the long-term solution to the migration

:26:59.:27:02.

crisis. In Libya, that means helping to form a government of national

:27:03.:27:06.

Accord which can regain control of Libya's borders and tackling the

:27:07.:27:11.

gags. And Sean can find response to Olivia, let the work demonstrating

:27:12.:27:14.

only yesterday and from is imperative to support... To move to

:27:15.:27:21.

improve security. As I've said, will target them is working toward a

:27:22.:27:25.

comprehensive board of management, ensuring humanitarian responses to

:27:26.:27:29.

those regions, while also disrupting the organised criminal networks to

:27:30.:27:36.

profit from the plight of other. Constantly changing. The government

:27:37.:27:41.

that he's a boss on all development so we can reshape our engagement and

:27:42.:27:46.

show our expertise in a targeted way. To protect the UK by Vanessa

:27:47.:27:51.

measures, assist our partners, and assure our efforts have the greatest

:27:52.:27:58.

impact. Who remain committed to cooperation with our European

:27:59.:28:00.

partners and pursuit of this agenda and that is what the motion tonight

:28:01.:28:02.

on defence. -- underpants. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. This

:28:03.:28:16.

motion covers a number of important documents, including the documenting

:28:17.:28:23.

European agenda on migration and of course the EU action plan against

:28:24.:28:29.

migrant smuggling. The scale of the documents is broad and their

:28:30.:28:33.

ambition is commendable. The European agenda on migration for

:28:34.:28:38.

example, it aims to set out a fair and robust migration policy. The

:28:39.:28:45.

action plan includes wide steps on things such as people smuggling,

:28:46.:28:49.

recovering assets, data gathering, and sharing information for the use

:28:50.:28:54.

of military assets. We support these aims and the fact that the motion

:28:55.:29:02.

calls for a coherent sustainable approach for migration or migratory

:29:03.:29:09.

pressures. We support the efforts of our Royal Navy and our forces who

:29:10.:29:15.

have rescued over 5577 migrants from Mediterranean so far. If the

:29:16.:29:20.

ministers able to update us on that figure I would appreciate that. The

:29:21.:29:26.

question is how the government is helping to deliver this approach and

:29:27.:29:32.

if DU as a whole are achieving it. -- eat you.

:29:33.:29:37.

The painful reality on the ground that we have seen in many parts of

:29:38.:29:44.

the EU, it is clear that the coherent and sustainable approach is

:29:45.:29:49.

simply not in place. These documents attempt to find an approach which

:29:50.:29:53.

ensures that Europe becomes a safe haven for those fleeing atrocities

:29:54.:29:58.

and persecution but also secure its borders and create conditions for

:29:59.:30:04.

economic prosperity. In order for there to be a coherent and

:30:05.:30:07.

sustainable solution to the migrant crisis, we must crack down on those

:30:08.:30:11.

who seek to take advantage of people in their time of need ruthless

:30:12.:30:19.

criminal networks organised and journeys of large numbers of

:30:20.:30:21.

migrants desperate to reach the EU. They make substantial gains by

:30:22.:30:27.

putting migrant lives at risk, often squeezing hundreds of migrants and

:30:28.:30:30.

two small boats including small inflatable boats, schools of

:30:31.:30:42.

migrants... Smugglers treat migrants as... Which they often traffic along

:30:43.:30:48.

the same roots. That is why we support the current operations aimed

:30:49.:30:55.

at preventing smuggling into the EU. Taking these operations provides the

:30:56.:30:58.

opportunity to make an impact on the crisis. It is the government

:30:59.:31:04.

acknowledges, action must also be taken to address the root causes of

:31:05.:31:10.

this crisis. The root causes of the migration lie in... Which the

:31:11.:31:14.

international community has been trying to address for many years,

:31:15.:31:20.

Civil War, persecution, poverty and climate change all feed into

:31:21.:31:25.

migration. That is why the UK must be involved in re-invigorating to

:31:26.:31:30.

the manic efforts to bring peace and stability to the people of Syria

:31:31.:31:38.

were people originate. -- and assisting development of the

:31:39.:31:43.

countries in question. Against that background, I have a number of

:31:44.:31:46.

questions which I would like to minister to clarify. First, it is

:31:47.:31:52.

important that there is ongoing parliamentary scrutiny of UK

:31:53.:31:55.

involvement in trafficking operations. With minister commit in

:31:56.:32:02.

informing the House prior to any development on this issue,

:32:03.:32:06.

particular with any movement of phase two to phase three of this.

:32:07.:32:11.

There's also some contradiction regarding the current state

:32:12.:32:16.

operation. The initial plan stated that phase three involved the

:32:17.:32:20.

disposing of vehicles and vessels used for trafficking. But the

:32:21.:32:23.

government has said that 40 migrant boats have already been disposed of

:32:24.:32:29.

as part of phase two. Can the Minister explain this to the House

:32:30.:32:31.

and in particular whether the phases have now changed? Thirdly, as well

:32:32.:32:40.

as disrupting and getting rid of vessels used for trafficking, it is

:32:41.:32:43.

important that people smugglers are brought to justice for stop can

:32:44.:32:47.

administer provide details on what the government is doing on this

:32:48.:32:52.

front and any details on the prosecution of any of those already

:32:53.:33:02.

apprehended? The question of the European agenda on migration and

:33:03.:33:08.

action plan is another motion which we had to urge the government to

:33:09.:33:13.

split off from the previous one because although there are some

:33:14.:33:17.

differences, in practice they are also some important similarities as

:33:18.:33:23.

the Minister indicates when he first got up to speak. There are a number

:33:24.:33:31.

of issues of which are of great concern, which in particular I would

:33:32.:33:36.

remind the Minister that he said in his expansion memorandum on

:33:37.:33:41.

communications that that was sometime ago, although I will not go

:33:42.:33:47.

through again. The immigration minister, that is right honourable

:33:48.:33:51.

gentleman said that the commission has failed and I quote ... And from

:33:52.:34:03.

other migratory pressures and I'm sure the Minister will understand my

:34:04.:34:07.

asking of the question which is pretty obvious, what are the correct

:34:08.:34:10.

policies if this is the wrong one? Also the commission considers that

:34:11.:34:18.

the asylum system in the European Union and the operation of the

:34:19.:34:21.

government rules is regarded as being fundamentally unfair. Another

:34:22.:34:28.

question is that is the government system broken and given the

:34:29.:34:31.

behaviour of the Chancellor of Germany, it would appeared to be

:34:32.:34:37.

that it is broken or can it be repaired and so does the government

:34:38.:34:40.

wants to see it repaired and what changes will be government seek when

:34:41.:34:45.

the rules are reviewed next year? The government has already made

:34:46.:34:50.

clear it favours a policy of resettlement, and I have to say I

:34:51.:34:53.

finally supported the government on that rather than relocation. These

:34:54.:34:58.

words get used rally the Michael rather freely but I would like to

:34:59.:35:02.

make the point that resettlement is quite different from relocation.

:35:03.:35:08.

Relocation implies the individual is Artie in the EU who applied for

:35:09.:35:14.

asylum and are presumed on the basis of their nationality to be very

:35:15.:35:19.

likely to qualify for international protection. Resettlement on the

:35:20.:35:26.

other hand applies to those outside the EU who are admitted from their

:35:27.:35:31.

country of origin or from conflict areas. Member States have

:35:32.:35:39.

collectively agreed to resettle 22,500 individuals from outside the

:35:40.:35:49.

EU in 2015. On the basis that they are in need of international

:35:50.:35:52.

protection and I have to say, although that is an assertion, there

:35:53.:35:58.

are serious? That have to be made regrettably about the nature of some

:35:59.:36:03.

of the people that are in need of national protection. Many, no doubt

:36:04.:36:10.

justified protection, but when and when I move on to the question of

:36:11.:36:18.

the European convention, the United Nations convention, the Geneva

:36:19.:36:22.

Convention, and the width of the definition that it is applied and my

:36:23.:36:29.

that what we really need is to have a reevaluation of the definitions of

:36:30.:36:34.

what is a refugee, redefinition of what is a migrant, and the

:36:35.:36:39.

redefinition of an asylum seeker. I have to say that this meeting that I

:36:40.:36:43.

referred to in the previous debate which took place in Rome only on

:36:44.:36:50.

Friday this week, last week, where all of the chairman of the relevant

:36:51.:36:57.

select committees were present, there was an fact a endorsement of

:36:58.:37:03.

my proposal which I am now putting forward an international EU meetings

:37:04.:37:08.

over the last four months calling for a review of these definitions.

:37:09.:37:13.

And because they have been expanded from even 1951 and now covered so

:37:14.:37:21.

many different and types of people it is extremely difficult to know

:37:22.:37:28.

whether on a reasonable basis to relocate them. We have already heard

:37:29.:37:35.

the very few, I think it is run the hundred that have already been

:37:36.:37:41.

relocated and it is this, the bottom line. The problem as I will come to

:37:42.:37:47.

it in the moment, the fundamental rights which are applied in this

:37:48.:37:52.

instance and also for the purposes of Human Rights Act of 1998 and the

:37:53.:38:00.

European convention on human rights. I know people feel strongly about

:38:01.:38:03.

this on both sides of the equation and we agreed that we would repeal

:38:04.:38:07.

the human acts of -- Human Rights Act of 1998 but the depth of the

:38:08.:38:13.

analysis on the charter in my judgement needs to be greatly

:38:14.:38:19.

improved because what is happening is that people who are claiming

:38:20.:38:25.

asylum can fall back on the is international conventions in a way

:38:26.:38:31.

that actually creates virtually a blockage through the legal system to

:38:32.:38:37.

the jurisdiction, and the jurors prudence of the human rights was

:38:38.:38:48.

such an. And there is an increasing statistical and legal problem, which

:38:49.:38:55.

is that more and more prop like people are claiming asylum and have

:38:56.:38:58.

been granted it. I am not saying there cases where it is not

:38:59.:39:02.

justified, but I am also saying that the definitions are so wide that it

:39:03.:39:11.

is becoming a difficult problem and not in fact going to lead to any

:39:12.:39:23.

serious policy in deportations. The government has underlined the

:39:24.:39:24.

importance of breaking the economic more like model which encourages

:39:25.:39:32.

people to put others in harms way at sea and that can be commended. There

:39:33.:39:37.

are certainly advantages to the effectiveness of the... Which is

:39:38.:39:48.

quite well supported by the United Kingdom. The trouble is that with

:39:49.:39:58.

these traffickers and smugglers, the problems exceed the capacity to be

:39:59.:40:04.

able to deal with them. I asked the Minister how effective he believes

:40:05.:40:10.

operations have been because of the absence of internationally

:40:11.:40:14.

recognised government in Libya. I would doubt heard to the question of

:40:15.:40:25.

the extent to which we have entered into a sensible arrangement with

:40:26.:40:33.

Turkey. Turkey and the EU have signed a deal to get the fast-track

:40:34.:40:36.

visa privileges in return for ?3 billion worth of aid and I believe

:40:37.:40:43.

the prospect of continuing financial support. And also the prospects of

:40:44.:40:48.

revitalizing EU membership and return for a commitment to a

:40:49.:40:53.

migration action plan, I have to say, I am profoundly cynical about

:40:54.:40:59.

this arrangement. I think it is based on giving money almost in the

:41:00.:41:06.

nature of a bribe to Turkey to provide them with financial support.

:41:07.:41:17.

From what I have been hearing in for meeting I have attended recently,

:41:18.:41:20.

the authorities and Turkey have been by no means diligent in enforcing

:41:21.:41:28.

the arrangements that they have crudely put into place. The fact

:41:29.:41:33.

that there are so many people who are making their way through the

:41:34.:41:42.

continent of Europe, north towards Germany, with an enormous amount of

:41:43.:41:47.

disruption does a great deal toward the inefficiency that Turkey has

:41:48.:41:51.

been behaving with recently. In addition to which, without getting

:41:52.:41:57.

into the question of form policy and defence implications, the reality is

:41:58.:42:01.

that Turkey has been at severe overheads with Russia. That is of

:42:02.:42:08.

severe complication in relation to concerted action in Syria. Also,

:42:09.:42:16.

Turkey is profoundly committed to dealing with as they see it, the

:42:17.:42:22.

Kurds, which is probably more important to them than anything else

:42:23.:42:26.

in this context and that is also an obstacle to form policy in this

:42:27.:42:37.

situation. Just exactly how the Turkey deal will operate, that is

:42:38.:42:43.

something that I am profoundly cynical about. They do actually, in

:42:44.:42:51.

return for these fast-track visa programmes and their desired to come

:42:52.:43:01.

to the European Union has, they have 78 million people in Turkey already,

:43:02.:43:07.

and that is increasing something at the rate of one million and 18

:43:08.:43:17.

months, so as the population expands the Turkish engagement with the

:43:18.:43:24.

European Union and its fact that they are coming over here is going

:43:25.:43:31.

to increase exponentially. I hope my friend will acknowledge that the

:43:32.:43:36.

discussion about possible visa deliberation involved the Schengen

:43:37.:43:39.

countries, they do not involve those Member States that are not part of

:43:40.:43:45.

Shengen. The Minister was not here when I spent a little bit of time

:43:46.:43:49.

talking about the Schengen asset to this in the previous debate because

:43:50.:43:54.

I believe the proposals which are currently being put forward, which

:43:55.:44:02.

increases the range of the border issue to external borders and

:44:03.:44:10.

including Shengen is going to burst. It is not going to work. There is

:44:11.:44:16.

not the money to pay for, the failure rate in relation to Frontex

:44:17.:44:23.

is itself evidence. I believe it would not work in future and I think

:44:24.:44:29.

the fact that we are not a member of it is not going to alter the

:44:30.:44:33.

pressures that will come as a result of people entering into the Schengen

:44:34.:44:40.

area and then having inquired passports, in relation to European

:44:41.:44:47.

citizenship, then making their way up through the whole of the European

:44:48.:44:52.

Union and causing pressures of the kind that we witnessed recently. I

:44:53.:44:58.

accept that they, Schengen is not at the moment part of the United

:44:59.:45:07.

Kingdom's problems but I believe the pressures that are now beginning to

:45:08.:45:12.

grow our increasing necessity for us in the European Union because

:45:13.:45:18.

Schengen is becoming a potent force, what had been hearing from other

:45:19.:45:21.

Member States towards a greater degree of emphasis on political

:45:22.:45:26.

union. It is a most are marketable state of affairs and the Minister

:45:27.:45:31.

was not here earlier and I see the Minister of state, puzzling over

:45:32.:45:37.

what I am saying, but I am saying and tactically that the Schengen

:45:38.:45:42.

area is currently, not only under review, but is already completely

:45:43.:45:52.

broken by countries. Yet there is an enormous desire to make it more

:45:53.:45:56.

effective and as it does so, so I believe the pressures from political

:45:57.:45:59.

union within that area will tend to increase. Now I want to turn to the

:46:00.:46:09.

question of this 1951 intervention on fundamental rights. But before I

:46:10.:46:13.

do so, I want to have an answer from the Minister, which I put to him

:46:14.:46:18.

before, as to how much, if at all the United Kingdom is allowed to

:46:19.:46:23.

contribute to the EU border force. If the Minister would be kind enough

:46:24.:46:27.

to remember I asked him that before. Is it true that contributing 150

:46:28.:46:31.

million, it is not apparently but I'm glad to hear him say it. Time

:46:32.:46:37.

did not allow me to respond formally to his question in last debate but

:46:38.:46:41.

we do not contributing to the funding of Frontex. The organisation

:46:42.:46:48.

is... We're not part of Schengen arrangements will stop we do provide

:46:49.:46:54.

operational support through vessels, expertise, debriefing, but that is

:46:55.:46:59.

the nature of our support. I heard much the same back in the days of

:47:00.:47:03.

the treaty, we were told we would not have complete federalism, I

:47:04.:47:06.

sincerely believe that what the Minister just said is what he

:47:07.:47:11.

believes will happen, I trust him to say exactly what is going on and I

:47:12.:47:16.

will take his word. But the pressures are there. That is all I

:47:17.:47:21.

am saying. The honourable Tubman will no doubt take great interest in

:47:22.:47:24.

the announcements we are expecting to make tomorrow in relation to the

:47:25.:47:28.

EU border force and we are looking at those, we will look at those

:47:29.:47:31.

proposals very closely. We do not take part in those because we are

:47:32.:47:37.

not part of that part of the Schengen arrangements. We are

:47:38.:47:39.

ensuring that our national interests are protected and we will scrutinize

:47:40.:47:45.

those carefully. I am grateful to you for those remarks. In relation

:47:46.:47:50.

to the refugees, this has been incorporated into EU law by virtue

:47:51.:47:58.

of the fundamental rights. Therefore, the European quarter

:47:59.:48:02.

justice which implemented European policy is interpreted Q Baek my

:48:03.:48:10.

passages of people claiming asylum... If they reach EU

:48:11.:48:16.

territory. And the nuns were formal prohibition on removal from an

:48:17.:48:23.

unsafe state from Article three of the convention. So there is

:48:24.:48:26.

interaction between the 1951 convention and the charter for

:48:27.:48:30.

fundamental rights. As the Minister again will know too well, the

:48:31.:48:36.

scrutiny committee in the last Parliament, having viewed the

:48:37.:48:40.

problem of fundamental rights, came to the conclusion that we had to

:48:41.:48:47.

override it and indeed, without going back into that debate too

:48:48.:48:51.

much, I simply remind the Minister that the previous Labour government

:48:52.:48:57.

itself was completely against the incorporation of the fundamental

:48:58.:49:04.

rights into the Lisbon Treaty. Furthermore, the noble lord Lord

:49:05.:49:12.

Goldsmith who was the envoy for Prime Minister Tony Blair in seeking

:49:13.:49:19.

to have a protocol, in fact achieving a protocol, which would

:49:20.:49:24.

have excluded the chancellor of fundamental rights on the face of it

:49:25.:49:28.

from the UK legislation. We argued this in the scrutiny committee at

:49:29.:49:33.

the time and I warned and said other members of the committee that this

:49:34.:49:40.

would not stick. Sure enough, as usual, I said regrettably our

:49:41.:49:45.

productions were right. European Court within the scope of European

:49:46.:49:50.

law is now applying the European, the charter of fundamental rights.

:49:51.:50:00.

This is part of the problem. This incorporates unconventional refugees

:50:01.:50:02.

in the definitions that go along with it. I said this earlier but the

:50:03.:50:07.

definitions need to be reviewed. They cannot be reviewed if they are

:50:08.:50:11.

part of the charter which is in itself a part of the European core

:50:12.:50:17.

justice. The whole of this issue is caught up in the issues, that is

:50:18.:50:24.

what I am driving at. That is causing Anna Norma's problem in

:50:25.:50:30.

interpretation, and with the ability to deal with this migration policy.

:50:31.:50:36.

A lot of this stuff, I freely admit this, it is a bit complicated. I

:50:37.:50:41.

have to say that unfortunately what people are failing to understand

:50:42.:50:45.

over the years is when these meetings take place in the European

:50:46.:50:49.

Council, when they take place in the Council of ministers, they are not

:50:50.:50:53.

just sitting around having a discussion as the Cabinet might do

:50:54.:50:56.

in relation to domestic legislation in deciding whether they want to

:50:57.:51:00.

tweak education policy or whether they want to make a change in

:51:01.:51:04.

transport policy. What they are doing when they make decisions is

:51:05.:51:09.

locking in the United Kingdom into legal Agut die like obligations

:51:10.:51:15.

which can only be removed by the unity of other Member States. This

:51:16.:51:22.

is a political system and this entire migration issue in this issue

:51:23.:51:26.

of refugees as compared to migrants as otherwise, I had no less sympathy

:51:27.:51:32.

for genuine refugees than anybody else, I'd dealt a great deal of time

:51:33.:51:38.

dealing with these issues in the House. Dealing people in refugees

:51:39.:51:42.

situations. This is not the same thing, this is not simply dealing

:51:43.:51:49.

with policies which you can rearrange, adjust, this is driving

:51:50.:51:54.

us into a deeper hole and I think that is something we need to say in

:51:55.:52:00.

this debate. Behold question of charter of fundamental rights and

:52:01.:52:07.

human rights is locked into this and that is a serious problem, including

:52:08.:52:11.

the definition of refugees. Also dealing with asylum seekers and I am

:52:12.:52:15.

afraid to say that is why one of the reasons why so few of them in my

:52:16.:52:18.

opinion are being dealt with appropriately. However, the UK is

:52:19.:52:24.

not part of Schengen as the Minister and I and all of us know too well,

:52:25.:52:29.

but we are part of the regulation. EU states and other United Nations

:52:30.:52:38.

signature is our obliged to allow... If a migrant reaches a new

:52:39.:52:42.

territory. However, the United Nations convention is not specific

:52:43.:52:47.

on how the obligations need to be disposed and arguably to claim

:52:48.:52:53.

asylum, under the convention, a rep Yuji needs to arrive directly from a

:52:54.:52:56.

state from which they are playing. -- refugee. This means that the

:52:57.:53:04.

applicant may have not been processed on the roof. Now we are

:53:05.:53:09.

dealing with 900,000 people. -- route. Frontier states under

:53:10.:53:17.

convention and charter of fundamental rights are not, I repeat

:53:18.:53:24.

not allowed to block those with those genuinely allowed to seek

:53:25.:53:30.

asylum from entering. Setting up a border defence as I said earlier,

:53:31.:53:36.

there's more problem now than in the Cold War, setting up these order

:53:37.:53:40.

defenses is extremely uncertain in law. The normal reform and

:53:41.:53:48.

prohibition of United Nations on removal than asylum seeker in an

:53:49.:53:52.

unsafe state can also be interpreted in different ways so as not to

:53:53.:53:58.

exclude their removal to a safe third, or save recent transit state.

:53:59.:54:03.

I want to get this on the record, because it is important that the

:54:04.:54:06.

government looks at all of this carefully when they get the

:54:07.:54:12.

opportunity to do so. As I said, the charter of fundamental rights is

:54:13.:54:16.

subject to European quarter justice whereas the United Nations

:54:17.:54:22.

convention is only a convention. So basically, we have a very

:54:23.:54:27.

complicated means situation which I believe in generating even more

:54:28.:54:32.

problems for the European Union and I think that in this context, will I

:54:33.:54:37.

accept entirely that this motion is merely a take note. Many of the

:54:38.:54:41.

things that I had said not being incorporated into the motion because

:54:42.:54:46.

and I do think and I say this with great respect to the Minister and to

:54:47.:54:50.

the Minister from Europe, some of these issues which are difficult our

:54:51.:54:57.

intractable but nonetheless do lead to the Schengen area have a

:54:58.:55:03.

continuing an ongoing affect on the kingdom as well because so long as

:55:04.:55:08.

we remain part of this European Union, which I know the Minister

:55:09.:55:12.

will accept, I do not think we should anymore, it does not alter

:55:13.:55:16.

the fact that we are affected by these things and this migrant issue

:55:17.:55:21.

with all the tragedies it involves, but also a great deal of the

:55:22.:55:28.

problems that come from fake passports and from the problem of

:55:29.:55:35.

jihadists and the rest, from the tragedies of those drowning in the

:55:36.:55:39.

Mediterranean make the situation even worse. I just simply say to the

:55:40.:55:44.

Minister, do not think I am asking to reply to all these points this

:55:45.:55:46.

evening because I am sure he would not have the chance to do so, but

:55:47.:55:50.

would you please take note of the fact that there are other arguments

:55:51.:55:52.

than those in the motion. I wanted to repeat some comments I

:55:53.:56:09.

have made on the previous debate. I will post this one into a vote this

:56:10.:56:14.

evening. There are two parts of the government's motion which will give

:56:15.:56:25.

us significant concern. I am disappointed that we are talking

:56:26.:56:29.

about a refugee crisis, and yet everything in the papers talk about

:56:30.:56:34.

migrants. This is not a migrant crisis, this is a crisis of refugees

:56:35.:56:39.

fleeing for their lives. If he could get that into the mindset not only

:56:40.:56:43.

of government here, but governments across Europe, we might start to

:56:44.:56:52.

address this emergency. We fully support the fact that we need to

:56:53.:56:58.

have coordinated and firm action against the criminals who are

:56:59.:57:03.

exploiting desperate people, people who are smuggling people. As the

:57:04.:57:11.

laws say, people trafficking and people smuggling are not the same

:57:12.:57:14.

thing. They are different in the eyes of the law. They are hard to

:57:15.:57:22.

tell apart in practice, but very different issues that he needs to be

:57:23.:57:30.

addressed in different ways. The House of Lords subcommittee has

:57:31.:57:32.

recommended to the European commission that in certain

:57:33.:57:38.

directives dealing with people smuggling and trafficking, the House

:57:39.:57:41.

has suggested that it should make a distinction. Smuggling is carried

:57:42.:57:48.

out because of humanitarian motives, but if it is clear that that is not

:57:49.:57:55.

done for criminal purposes or financial gain, but to a misguided

:57:56.:58:02.

belief that it is Unitarian. I wouldn't think that they are

:58:03.:58:09.

international criminals. I am interested to know about the

:58:10.:58:14.

government's attitude toward that. The motion about tackling the causes

:58:15.:58:19.

of migration, and I am interested to hear what the Minister thinks of the

:58:20.:58:25.

causes of 100,000 refugees who arrived in Greece over the last year

:58:26.:58:32.

or so, or the people, the 400,000 people in refugee camps in the

:58:33.:58:36.

Mediterranean coast. Unless they can prove to us that there were 4

:58:37.:58:40.

million people last year ended the year before and every year over the

:58:41.:58:45.

last ten years, the conclusion is that the root cause of this crisis

:58:46.:58:57.

is war and violence and persecution. Would he agree that the member who

:58:58.:59:07.

describes the family who tried to leave the situation, it really

:59:08.:59:15.

doesn't understand the situation, and it speaks to the issue you are

:59:16.:59:22.

talking about earlier? I would fully agree. I wanted to save more in

:59:23.:59:30.

response to the member, but I will respond to him now. What I will say

:59:31.:59:36.

is that there may be people taking risks that could be described as

:59:37.:59:42.

foolish or desperate. These people are not stupid, some are highly

:59:43.:59:46.

educated and highly skilled. The reason they are taking risks and

:59:47.:59:55.

risking their children's lives, is because they felt left behind in

:59:56.:00:06.

Syria. Would he agree that part of the problem is that there aren't no

:00:07.:00:12.

means of safe passage across land once Borders have been closed, so

:00:13.:00:17.

that they have to go by sea? I absolutely agree. One of the things

:00:18.:00:26.

that ties people, leads them into the hands of the criminals, is if

:00:27.:00:32.

they don't have a safe way of getting out, it is the only way of

:00:33.:00:37.

getting out is to risk their lives with the smugglers. The evidence has

:00:38.:00:44.

all too often washed up on the beaches of Europe and North Africa.

:00:45.:00:50.

I'm interested to see if the Minister will accept that the root

:00:51.:00:55.

cause of this emergency is not the benefit system, or the wonderful

:00:56.:01:01.

economic growth, it is a desperate strategy that is unfolding

:01:02.:01:07.

particularly in Syria. That has got to be addressed once and for all if

:01:08.:01:12.

we want this emergency results in longer terms. The ?3 billion that is

:01:13.:01:24.

going -- I am concerned to know about the transparency and

:01:25.:01:27.

accountability attached to that. What scrutiny will be used for that?

:01:28.:01:33.

I'm not as enthusiastic about the Turkish government as some on the

:01:34.:01:35.

bench seemed to be. I cannot forget what the Turkish military are doing,

:01:36.:01:42.

and until they stopped doing that, we have to know how far the

:01:43.:01:56.

government will go. By the chair of the scrutiny committee, the

:01:57.:02:01.

Minister, among other things was responding to questions about

:02:02.:02:10.

specific calls for assistance. His answer was that he" I believe more

:02:11.:02:18.

Member States can be doing more for the various funding strands in the

:02:19.:02:22.

UK contributions." The story has various versions.

:02:23.:02:40.

There was an important job that had to be done, and everyone agreed that

:02:41.:02:44.

it had to be done. Nobody actually did it. We all agree that we should

:02:45.:02:52.

do a lot more, but we cannot agree on what. The scrutiny committee

:02:53.:02:59.

might ask him to clarify on his comments. Could a specific Member

:03:00.:03:06.

States do more, and what is realistically possible, and what has

:03:07.:03:17.

been done already? One part of the government's motion that gives me

:03:18.:03:24.

concern is the talk about making a link between rescue at sea and

:03:25.:03:29.

permanent resettlement in the European union. I did not realise

:03:30.:03:39.

that there was it automatic link. Claiming asylum, we have to assess

:03:40.:03:46.

whether they are here is an asylum seeker to have a right to live your?

:03:47.:03:57.

I wonder if what we see here is the emergency situation in Syria will

:03:58.:04:03.

continue for years and years. To all intents and purposes, people have,

:04:04.:04:07.

because they want a safe haven. I will accept that it will be years,

:04:08.:04:13.

possibly decades until Syria can take them back. I want further

:04:14.:04:15.

clarification on that from the Minister. I hope I don't have to

:04:16.:04:23.

wait too long for the answer for that. The chair of the scrutiny

:04:24.:04:27.

committee has had answers in the past. At one point we considered

:04:28.:04:34.

posting this to a vote because of a comment the. I think that it is an

:04:35.:04:48.

accurate, and they think that it creates and continues to create an

:04:49.:04:51.

impression that a significant number of these 4 million Syrians are

:04:52.:04:58.

trying to come here because they want to live in the UK. They are not

:04:59.:05:03.

start to get out of Syria because they don't want to die. This is a

:05:04.:05:12.

crisis that is fundamentally caused by war and violence and civil

:05:13.:05:17.

unrest. It is not caused by a desire to live in the United Kingdom. In

:05:18.:05:26.

noting these documents, and approving this text, we are invited

:05:27.:05:31.

to give our approval. Our approval to a deal between the European Union

:05:32.:05:36.

and Turkey. A deal negotiated and signed without our input or are in

:05:37.:05:41.

the moment, or without our ability to vote it down. We shouldn't agree,

:05:42.:05:48.

and I have tabled my own alternative motion. A few days ago, the EU

:05:49.:05:52.

announced what is a 4-part deal with Turkey. I can see what might be in

:05:53.:06:00.

it for Turkey. From that point of view it is a good deal. It is not in

:06:01.:06:08.

a brand's interest. It is not in our national interest. This deal will

:06:09.:06:13.

give 75 million Turks these are free, unrestricted access to the

:06:14.:06:17.

Schengen area from the next October. We may not be part of singing, but

:06:18.:06:23.

this does affect us. There will be no mechanism to lock people coming

:06:24.:06:31.

into the Schengen area, and none to lock people out. This deal can only

:06:32.:06:36.

add to the poorest miss of the EU's frontiers. It can only contribute to

:06:37.:06:42.

the increase in numbers of those seeking entry into the UK. The talks

:06:43.:06:51.

between the EU and Turkey mean that Turkish succession to the EU is back

:06:52.:06:56.

on the table. I wouldn't wish that on anyone, to join the EU. I

:06:57.:07:00.

wouldn't wish it on a friend like Turkey. I have concern over Turkey's

:07:01.:07:13.

abuse of minorities, those who are Christians. The Kurds in particular.

:07:14.:07:20.

We are considering supporting them wanting to join the EU. Why should

:07:21.:07:26.

we do that when they don't act their human rights abuse is so terrible?

:07:27.:07:34.

He makes a powerful point. We deal with Turkey as an equal, but they do

:07:35.:07:39.

not have the belief in equality in Turkey that we have in the West and

:07:40.:07:45.

in North America. That is a valid and powerful point. Into the deal

:07:46.:07:51.

between EU and Turkey, which we are being asked to approve, the EU will

:07:52.:07:59.

give Turkey 3 billion euros a year, of which a hefty cut comeback will

:08:00.:08:06.

come from a the UK. The fourth aspect of this deal under migration

:08:07.:08:11.

of management that I find the most objectionable. Each year some

:08:12.:08:17.

400,000 migrants from Turkey will be allowed to settle within Schengen.

:08:18.:08:22.

To settle within Schengen. We are not in the same, but it will affect

:08:23.:08:27.

us. These migrants will be assigned to Schengen Member States. Once the

:08:28.:08:36.

400,000 migrants have begin in the EU, they will acquire the right to

:08:37.:08:42.

live anywhere in the EU. We imagine that those allocated to our Hyatt

:08:43.:08:56.

employment -- Hyatt employment -- those assigned to Portugal, those

:08:57.:09:01.

assigned to live in Italy will be able to move wherever they want to.

:09:02.:09:06.

This is being assigned in our name with profound implications on us,

:09:07.:09:12.

and we have no say. We can correct specs more migrants to find their

:09:13.:09:17.

way into this country as a direct consequence of this deal, and there

:09:18.:09:20.

are many voters who will deeply resent the fact that they have not

:09:21.:09:25.

been asked. The motion before us talks about the need for us to work

:09:26.:09:31.

with our international partners. Indeed, we must, but I would ask

:09:32.:09:36.

ministers to be more circumspect when we select our international

:09:37.:09:43.

partners. It is difficult to access -- assess radicals without assessing

:09:44.:09:59.

Saudi Arabia. The EU has imposed sanctions on Iran. I cannot support

:10:00.:10:06.

the motion in front of us. I regret that even if this house objected,

:10:07.:10:14.

even if we rallied heroically to defeat this motion, if we voted down

:10:15.:10:19.

the motion, nothing would change. It wouldn't matter a drop. We do have

:10:20.:10:26.

assigned away the deal to sign a deal with Turkey. The consequences

:10:27.:10:30.

will be with us for the years to come. Here in eight empty chamber on

:10:31.:10:36.

a Monday morning, there is nothing we can about it. Karim three aspects

:10:37.:10:47.

of the European union agenda. The first document mentions... Save

:10:48.:10:56.

legal routes. Vulnerable people cannot be left to resorts to the

:10:57.:11:01.

criminal network of smugglers and traffickers, there must be safe ways

:11:02.:11:07.

for them to reach the EU. The house select committee has said that

:11:08.:11:11.

addressing the root cause of migration is to create safe and

:11:12.:11:14.

legal routes for refugees to enter the EU. A modest and wholly

:11:15.:11:26.

achievable proposal if there is political will. We welcome the

:11:27.:11:30.

Government's resettlement programme, overdue as it may have been. This

:11:31.:11:37.

has been an accumulation of documents over a long period of

:11:38.:11:42.

time, during which had our proposal in the European scrutiny committee

:11:43.:11:46.

been taken up earlier, we would have been debating these figures. We are

:11:47.:11:51.

not talking about 20 or 40,000, we are talking about 400, 500, 600,000.

:11:52.:12:03.

About the resettlement plans, I will talk about resettlement. It is not

:12:04.:12:09.

the only method of providing a safe and equal roots. We have urged the

:12:10.:12:14.

government to listen to extra organizations calling for family

:12:15.:12:21.

reunion loss, so that fewer people are compelled to risk their lives

:12:22.:12:25.

leaving the Mediterranean. The second aspect I want to mention is

:12:26.:12:31.

the most important is in regard to the notion of hotspots. We have

:12:32.:12:40.

talked about in recent months. This asylum system was already chaotic

:12:41.:12:46.

before this crisis began. Expecting those systems to cope with this

:12:47.:12:50.

crisis would be entirely unreasonable. This hotspot approach

:12:51.:12:59.

is supposed to help. In the theory, the you will work with front-line

:13:00.:13:07.

states to identify those who claim asylum, and they will be channeled

:13:08.:13:11.

into an asylum procedure where people will helps to support asylum

:13:12.:13:18.

as quickly as possible. 60 million euros was supposed to be invested in

:13:19.:13:25.

health care for migrants. I have not had the benefit of visiting any

:13:26.:13:31.

hotspots, but have read and listened to reports. Those include reports

:13:32.:13:35.

from the International Rescue Committee, who said that the weight

:13:36.:13:42.

hotspots are being carried out are leaving people without basics

:13:43.:13:47.

shelter. In October, and update explained reasons why that might be

:13:48.:13:51.

the case. Only six Member States have responded to the call, with

:13:52.:13:58.

just 81 out of 374 experts requested. Six Member States have

:13:59.:14:11.

responded out of 48. Lots of serious questions remain about hotspots, and

:14:12.:14:15.

how did they will function. I would like to know if the Minister can

:14:16.:14:19.

comment on the legal basis of these hotspots, and if these hotspots

:14:20.:14:25.

people in these hotspots have access to legal advice. How do I do with

:14:26.:14:34.

Will depend on their national LD. The number who have been removed

:14:35.:14:43.

from hotspots. What is the UK contribution to this? I turned to

:14:44.:14:49.

the issue of relocation. I was not able to attended the earlier debate.

:14:50.:14:59.

The government's negotiation with other EU states address pressures.

:15:00.:15:10.

The government washes its hands. Instead, they leave the

:15:11.:15:14.

responsibility to everybody else. The House of Lords described the

:15:15.:15:20.

excuse is as unconvincing. I would say that that is kind to the

:15:21.:15:24.

government. The idea that whether or not the UK take part in relocation

:15:25.:15:33.

scheme affects people who are attempting the journey. It has been

:15:34.:15:38.

months since the UK said it would shock its responsibilities in this

:15:39.:15:40.

card Piller regard. What are your peanut relocation

:15:41.:15:57.

scheme should be doing this to response to an emergency situation

:15:58.:16:01.

as humanitarian aid increases. Failing to opt in means that we are

:16:02.:16:06.

failing to live up to our duty of solidarity, that we share between

:16:07.:16:10.

the Member States. A crisis of this scale requires collective action.

:16:11.:16:16.

Dealing with the people in desperate circumstances is impossible for two

:16:17.:16:24.

or three countries. A number of 500 million, it poses an impossible

:16:25.:16:31.

struggle. As the European agenda document states, the member state

:16:32.:16:37.

can address relocation alone, and that we need a European approach.

:16:38.:16:41.

That is the approach that the government should be taking, instead

:16:42.:16:44.

said that head in the sand approach that is going on. With the leave of

:16:45.:16:55.

the house, perhaps I could respond to some of the point in this debate.

:16:56.:17:02.

The issue over organised immigration is important, and it is worth

:17:03.:17:07.

underlining the important the word -- over the months we have organised

:17:08.:17:15.

a task force, focusing on the crime that has been going on in the UK

:17:16.:17:20.

border, the Mediterranean, and France. We have disrupted organised

:17:21.:17:25.

crime, and our force will be expanded to a 100 strong team.

:17:26.:17:30.

Sharing data is vital to help us combat criminal gains, and enhanced

:17:31.:17:37.

data sharing is part of the EU's response. The chair of the scrutiny

:17:38.:17:41.

committee asked for the government's priorities in terms of where we

:17:42.:17:47.

think we need to take action. I have written previously to underline that

:17:48.:17:51.

there are four points that we have highlighted. On how the money is

:17:52.:18:00.

spent tackling projects in transit countries, how organised crime is

:18:01.:18:04.

fought which is better to join up with Member States, the issue of

:18:05.:18:09.

dealing with economic might immigration to ensure that those

:18:10.:18:19.

entering the EU -- those kinds of refugees status doesn't need to be

:18:20.:18:24.

addressed more firmly. We need a stronger coherence between

:18:25.:18:26.

development work and economic migrants. The issue of Dublin, we

:18:27.:18:34.

support the Dublin regulations. We believe that asylum dollars in the

:18:35.:18:39.

EU should be dealt with the member state concerned. The commission is

:18:40.:18:44.

Rita doing the Dublin regulations to bring in a new regulation that next

:18:45.:18:48.

spring. We are cooperating, but we believe that the long-standing

:18:49.:18:52.

principles at the heart of the relation of the right ones. It would

:18:53.:18:57.

be an error to replace them with untested measures. In respect of the

:18:58.:19:08.

operations into the Mediterranean is -- the high seas operation, and to

:19:09.:19:14.

reports of EU committee meetings, the house will be updated should

:19:15.:19:17.

there be further progress which we will look to. It is focused on the

:19:18.:19:23.

situation in Libya, and we welcome support from Libya and across the

:19:24.:19:27.

political spectrum and recognising the urgency of creating a

:19:28.:19:32.

long-awaited government, their accord that requires politicians to

:19:33.:19:41.

sign by December. The UN effort to establish a government of accord in

:19:42.:19:49.

Libya. We support that as a priority for moving forward. In terms of the

:19:50.:19:54.

EU Turkey action plan, the action plan covers most of our priority

:19:55.:19:57.

areas, including controlling the flow of migrants from from Turkey to

:19:58.:20:11.

the EU. It is important to stress that Turkey is tackling smuggling

:20:12.:20:18.

networks. The action plan incentivizes Turkey to do more, and

:20:19.:20:29.

the reaction plan does not guarantee Turkey -- it is important to

:20:30.:20:37.

underline in the stress -- the human rights abuses taking place in

:20:38.:20:43.

Turkey, have you been discussions on relation to this matter? It is clear

:20:44.:20:47.

to me at his house that the human right abuses have not stopped, and

:20:48.:20:53.

that they will continue full stop we do support Turkey's EU sufficient

:20:54.:21:01.

progress. The process recognises that Turkey needs to do more to meet

:21:02.:21:08.

EU standards to continuing reform, particularly in the area of

:21:09.:21:13.

fundamental rights. Active and credible negotiations remain the

:21:14.:21:16.

best way for Turkey to make further progress. We have touched on the

:21:17.:21:20.

hotspots issue, and the UK stands ready to support offers, and

:21:21.:21:26.

otherwise to see that there are the appropriate mechanisms in place. Our

:21:27.:21:33.

position on the migration crisis is practical, pragmatic, and focuses on

:21:34.:21:36.

the need for concerted humanitarian aid for those who need our

:21:37.:21:43.

protection, ensuring cooperation with EU partners, combating illegal

:21:44.:21:46.

immigration, and those who profit from it, and protecting our

:21:47.:21:49.

security. That is where the government's focus remains.

:21:50.:22:06.

The ayes have it. Motion at number five on business of the house. The

:22:07.:22:22.

question is as on the order paper. The ayes have it, the ayes have it.

:22:23.:22:35.

Motion number six, and seven. The question is as on the order paper.

:22:36.:22:50.

The ayes have it, the ayes have it. The question is as on the order

:22:51.:22:57.

papers. The ayes have it, the ayes have it. The question is that this

:22:58.:23:11.

house now adjourned. I am grateful for this opportunity to lead my

:23:12.:23:16.

first debate on the serious issue of finance for student nurses and

:23:17.:23:23.

midwives. I spent much of my career outside of this place working for a

:23:24.:23:28.

number of charities to widen access to higher education, and to tackle

:23:29.:23:33.

broader education disadvantage. As cabinet leader for well-being, I

:23:34.:23:39.

became aware of the challenges facing front line staff and managers

:23:40.:23:43.

of the front line trust to serve my constituents. I have eight -- I'm a

:23:44.:23:51.

supporter of Unicef, and I am grateful to the national student

:23:52.:23:56.

organisation, and other organizations who gathered the

:23:57.:24:00.

evidence for this evening's debate. With just a few lines in the Autumn

:24:01.:24:04.

Statement, the Chancellor announced the biggest shake-up in the career

:24:05.:24:12.

of nursing, midwifery since the act of 1968. By scrapping student plans

:24:13.:24:23.

and scrapping tuition fees, that's the skill and potential consequences

:24:24.:24:27.

of this dish and merit further Parmenter he scrutiny and public

:24:28.:24:30.

debate. I hope that tonight will provide the first of many

:24:31.:24:33.

opportunities for that debate to take place. Nursing and midwifery

:24:34.:24:40.

students pay no tuition fees for their studies. They receive grants

:24:41.:24:41.

up to ?1000 COMMENTATOR: Pounds. This is significant, because

:24:42.:24:54.

students in both courses are required to work throughout the

:24:55.:24:58.

degrees in clinical practice, where they are subject to 24-hour care

:24:59.:25:03.

cycles. They work evenings, nights, and weekends. Many will spend 60% of

:25:04.:25:08.

their degree doing this, with nurses required to work at least 2300 hours

:25:09.:25:14.

across the degree. Even with the current levels of financial support,

:25:15.:25:18.

many struggle to make ends meet. The courses are longer, their holidays

:25:19.:25:23.

are shorter, and their placement are demanding. Those who do paid work

:25:24.:25:27.

outside of their courts can't work over 60 hours a week as a result,

:25:28.:25:31.

and they should not be expected to do so. There has been a public

:25:32.:25:36.

outcry at the loss of the NHS per street, but the government public

:25:37.:25:42.

plans go further. Students will lose their grants for maintenance, but

:25:43.:25:45.

they will also be expected to take out loans for their tuition fees for

:25:46.:25:49.

the first time. These changes will burden students with debts of at

:25:50.:25:56.

least a ?51,600, which they will begin to pay back as soon as they

:25:57.:26:01.

graduate, because nurses starting salary is just over the repayment

:26:02.:26:04.

threshold, shamefully frozen at ?21,000. As a result, nurses will on

:26:05.:26:11.

average take a pay cut of ?900 a year in order to meet their

:26:12.:26:18.

payments. This is no way for ministers to treat the people who

:26:19.:26:23.

form the backbone of the NHS. Given that the government sees fit to

:26:24.:26:26.

charge the systems for tuition, perhaps the Minister will confirm

:26:27.:26:30.

whether he intends to pay students for the hours that they put into

:26:31.:26:34.

staffing or hospitals? If a private company try to get workers to work

:26:35.:26:39.

long shifts, and to pay for the privilege of working those long

:26:40.:26:42.

shifts, while training, they would be condemned. We should be no less

:26:43.:26:47.

outraged by what ministers are proposing for and midwives. The

:26:48.:26:53.

impact of these changes will be felt beyond nurses, and midwives.

:26:54.:26:58.

Physiotherapists, occupational therapists, dietitians podiatrists,

:26:59.:27:03.

radiographers, process assists and other allied health professionals

:27:04.:27:09.

stand to lose out. We're not talking about the highest paid people in

:27:10.:27:13.

this land. This is an assault on the living standards of workers, really

:27:14.:27:19.

causing outrage of staff and members of the public who chairs the work

:27:20.:27:22.

that they do on our behalf. Giving the skill of these reforms, it is

:27:23.:27:26.

outrageous that the government chose to sneak them out in the Autumn

:27:27.:27:29.

Statement. The Chancellor's statement made an oblique references

:27:30.:27:34.

at replacing direct funding with loans for new students. The policy

:27:35.:27:39.

decision on page 126 of the blue book merely says that students

:27:40.:27:45.

studying nursing, midwifery, or health subjects in 2017 will be

:27:46.:27:49.

moved onto her stomach onto standards support system with the

:27:50.:27:53.

details subject to consultation. Since the government has placed so

:27:54.:27:57.

little information in the public domain, and given that higher

:27:58.:28:02.

education institutions will be turning their minds to the 2017

:28:03.:28:06.

admissions round, I hope that like to be shed on the details this

:28:07.:28:11.

evening. Kennedy Minister confirmed that the government will consult on

:28:12.:28:15.

the principle of these policy changes, and not nearly their

:28:16.:28:18.

implementation? Can he tell us with the full timetable for this decision

:28:19.:28:22.

will be from consultation to implementation? Why analysis has the

:28:23.:28:28.

government conducted a on the students for tuition costs and

:28:29.:28:32.

maintenance costs, and while they published an assessment for these

:28:33.:28:37.

proposals? What research has the government conducted into the

:28:38.:28:41.

financial hardship facing existing nursing and midwifery students, and

:28:42.:28:44.

students of Allied health subjects? Why does the government think that

:28:45.:28:47.

it is fair that students from the most deprived backgrounds should

:28:48.:28:50.

have their grants taken away, while some of the wealthiest people

:28:51.:28:55.

receive tax cuts? How much of this that does the government expected to

:28:56.:29:00.

write off, because those indented by those reforms are unable to repay

:29:01.:29:03.

them in full? Department will meet the cost of servicing the charge for

:29:04.:29:10.

the student loan debt, the department for health, or the

:29:11.:29:12.

departed for business, innovation, and skills? What about Northern

:29:13.:29:19.

Ireland, Scotland, and Wales, where different places will be.

:29:20.:29:25.

Is I understand... Will be 56,000 people gathered. The health minister

:29:26.:29:39.

has committed himself to... Can they do the same? I agree with the Abu

:29:40.:29:46.

gentleman. Of course he rightly points out that this is going to

:29:47.:29:50.

open up a postcode lottery across the United Kingdom as it from parts

:29:51.:29:53.

of the United Kingdom choose to treat nurses and train nurses and

:29:54.:30:00.

midwives in different ways. We arty have in the case of the junior

:30:01.:30:03.

doctors dispute the government saw sent and decided to reflect on their

:30:04.:30:09.

position. We were faced with the prospects of nurses in my

:30:10.:30:14.

constituency flocking to other parts of the United Kingdom because the

:30:15.:30:18.

situation there was more generous. With great respect all of the people

:30:19.:30:22.

represented here, Scotland, wealth and Northern Ireland, I want to keep

:30:23.:30:26.

talented training doctors and nurses and midwives and other health

:30:27.:30:30.

confessionals who live in my constituency in my constituency is.

:30:31.:30:35.

So they can serve my constituents that too where they work. These are

:30:36.:30:40.

very serious issues and I hope... I will give way. He is making an

:30:41.:30:48.

excellent speech with excellent points pointing out the significance

:30:49.:30:56.

of nursing to the country. Scotland since their solidarity to their

:30:57.:31:02.

colleagues in England. -- since. I am glad he is bringing this debate.

:31:03.:31:05.

I'm grateful for that intervention, I condoned. Members on the benches

:31:06.:31:13.

opposite, they may where the NHS back on their lapel, but they are

:31:14.:31:17.

quick to attack the conditions of the NHS staff when it comes to

:31:18.:31:21.

taking difficult decisions. When we were in government, and we went as

:31:22.:31:26.

we were making changes to higher education, this is not something we

:31:27.:31:30.

brought forward. It will take no less from the party opposite when

:31:31.:31:35.

they attacked Labour spending plans at the 2010 General election because

:31:36.:31:38.

we wanted to have the deficit. They promised to eliminate it and they

:31:39.:31:42.

have to. It is on their own record that the government is not in a

:31:43.:31:45.

position to head to other parties when it comes to their record on

:31:46.:31:52.

spending plans. Does he agree with me that what is devastating about

:31:53.:31:55.

this is that people from my constituency, my background, the

:31:56.:32:03.

reality is they will not be able to... They will be crying out for

:32:04.:32:07.

nurses and people to fill those positions. The NHS is being burdened

:32:08.:32:10.

by agency staff who do not have the staff available? She speaks with

:32:11.:32:18.

great experience, the government should heed the points that she

:32:19.:32:21.

makes. I will turn to some of the other questions I have for the

:32:22.:32:25.

Minister this evening. Our clinical placements be funded under this

:32:26.:32:30.

student loan system? The government talks about the number of places it

:32:31.:32:36.

will expand, their occupational placements that need to be put into

:32:37.:32:39.

place and the government should explain how they intend to find

:32:40.:32:43.

those. Given the numbers of mature applicants were nursing, midwifery

:32:44.:32:47.

and allied health subjects, what assessment has the government made

:32:48.:32:50.

of the likely impact of these reforms on applications from the

:32:51.:32:53.

students. Is the government concerned that applications from

:32:54.:32:58.

mature students may fall given the depth of Digital impact that reforms

:32:59.:33:07.

had -- detrimental. Given that many choose it as a second degree may the

:33:08.:33:12.

be able to take $100,000 of that, how will the government ensure that

:33:13.:33:16.

this route is not close to the students? Have they done any thought

:33:17.:33:25.

about the extent of the reform... The government is... Does the

:33:26.:33:32.

government have any evidence which makes clear at what stage they are

:33:33.:33:36.

turned away? And if it is really the case that people are flocking to

:33:37.:33:41.

these professions, can the Minister explain my my trust has been so

:33:42.:33:45.

reliant on temporary agency staff including nurses flown over from

:33:46.:33:48.

Portugal to adjust the recruitment and retention challenges of facing

:33:49.:33:56.

our NHS. Can the Minister informed the House of any changes will be

:33:57.:33:58.

made to the additional allowances such as the extra weeks allowance or

:33:59.:34:03.

the dependents allowance? If so, what are those plan changes and if

:34:04.:34:06.

so what assessment has the government made up the potential

:34:07.:34:11.

impact of those plan changes? Given the press speculation over the

:34:12.:34:14.

weekend of the government explains increase the cap and university

:34:15.:34:16.

tuition fees over all, what assurance can the Minister give the

:34:17.:34:21.

House that students sitting nursing, midwifery and allied health subjects

:34:22.:34:23.

will not see the tuition fees spiked up even further than is already

:34:24.:34:28.

being suggested? Even at this government seems content is shipped

:34:29.:34:32.

it for existing students, can the Minister expect Turner features

:34:33.:34:36.

students to believe the terms and conditions may sign up for one not

:34:37.:34:39.

be changed and applied retrospectively down the line? At

:34:40.:34:44.

the very least, I hope the Minister will be able to confirm that the NHS

:34:45.:34:46.

will continue to find the tuition fees for extent too existing

:34:47.:34:51.

students for the remainder of their studies. When the Coalition

:34:52.:34:54.

Government chose to increase the fees in 2010, the move was subjected

:34:55.:34:59.

to debate and a vote in this house. Given the media speculation that

:35:00.:35:08.

current officers, two can the Minister give the House and

:35:09.:35:11.

assurance that we all have a vote and we all have a full debate should

:35:12.:35:15.

the government just extend tuition fees to nursing, midwifery and

:35:16.:35:22.

allied health subject costs? Many students have party written to

:35:23.:35:24.

ministers in the Department of Health and are awaiting a reply.

:35:25.:35:28.

With the Minister commit to meeting with student representatives to

:35:29.:35:33.

discuss their concerns. Madame deputies the greatest of hard to

:35:34.:35:35.

understand why the government shift in policy is generating so much

:35:36.:35:40.

concern and anxiety. -- Madam Deputy Speaker. ... The University of

:35:41.:35:49.

Hartford sure, and of the chartered Society of physical therapy, I have

:35:50.:35:55.

been contacted by student nurses and midwives in my own constituency and

:35:56.:35:57.

have received messages of support from this debate from those in of

:35:58.:36:03.

other honourable and right honourable members. Before I

:36:04.:36:06.

conclude I would like to share some of the stories I have heard and

:36:07.:36:08.

finished by making a few points about nursing and midwifery students

:36:09.:36:13.

himself. These are exceptional people into their dedication to

:36:14.:36:19.

their job is incredible. They work long hours, often in difficult

:36:20.:36:21.

situations and take a direct role for caring for patients with there

:36:22.:36:26.

at their most of. Nursing student I have spoken to told me just how

:36:27.:36:31.

challenging their work can be. -- portable. The hands of patients

:36:32.:36:34.

their final moments comforting them as they passed. They are a bedrock

:36:35.:36:47.

of support for families. In the making of his powerful speech, I

:36:48.:36:51.

wanted to share my thoughts on the matter as someone who's sons life

:36:52.:36:57.

was saved by a student midwife and whose life was saved. Does he agree

:36:58.:37:01.

with me that now making those people not only work for free, but to pay

:37:02.:37:07.

to save the lives of people like me and my son is simply despicable? I

:37:08.:37:12.

wholeheartedly agree with my right honourable friend and I am grateful

:37:13.:37:15.

she shared her own difficult personal experience as well. Nurses

:37:16.:37:21.

care for us and some of our darkest and most painful moments, the weight

:37:22.:37:25.

of the responsibilities carries with what they have the physical and

:37:26.:37:30.

emotional load. The same history nurses midwife. One spoke with her

:37:31.:37:36.

baby was born still... When her baby was born, Tom Asche will never

:37:37.:37:45.

forget how she spent time with a mum who carried twins. She came back for

:37:46.:37:50.

another 12 and a half hours with the same woman. She supported the

:37:51.:37:53.

delivery of ten babies and feels immense pride in being part of a

:37:54.:38:00.

moment... Momentous moment. Save one life and you are a euro, say 100

:38:01.:38:04.

lives in Uranus. Is people are seeking to qualify for these... They

:38:05.:38:12.

deserve our respect, admiration and support in the right incentives to

:38:13.:38:15.

continue or even command study in the first place. Anastacia listen to

:38:16.:38:21.

the students protesting and the nearly 150,000 people who signed

:38:22.:38:30.

positions to keep the NHS bursary. Day shipping things through properly

:38:31.:38:32.

and I asked the government to support this process, it will be

:38:33.:38:43.

tragedy. I look forward to the ministers response and hope in the

:38:44.:38:46.

coming days, weeks and months he wasn't carefully to the voices of

:38:47.:38:51.

does who form the bath bone of our health service -- the backbone. Is a

:38:52.:38:59.

privilege to respond to this debate. I know I am doing so after a great

:39:00.:39:09.

speech who has experience and some expertise in student finance. He was

:39:10.:39:12.

on the front lines when we had discussions in this place some years

:39:13.:39:19.

ago. Not here but outside of it. I know that he brings passion, and

:39:20.:39:23.

knowledge to this debate. I hope that he will not mind, I know he has

:39:24.:39:30.

heard this before, if I went through some of the issues and some of the

:39:31.:39:33.

reasons why the government feels this is the right thing to do. At

:39:34.:39:39.

the right time before I addressed some of the specific and detailed

:39:40.:39:45.

questions he has rightly put it. He will be aware that nursing remains

:39:46.:39:50.

one of the few subjects which is not put in the preview of the current

:39:51.:39:58.

student finance system. The current system is not delivering as it

:39:59.:40:07.

should both for health students and patients. The reason for that,

:40:08.:40:11.

simply put, is that nursing is one of the most oversubscribed subjects

:40:12.:40:18.

in the whole of the academic range of. It is the fifth most popular.

:40:19.:40:25.

Laster there were 57,000 applicants for the 20,000 nursing places

:40:26.:40:29.

available. I do not wish to go down the route of discussing in HS

:40:30.:40:36.

finance because it will lead us not into a place that is either easy or

:40:37.:40:43.

part of his argument. Nor is it particularly realistic to do so.

:40:44.:40:49.

There'll be no way that any government will be able to offer a

:40:50.:40:51.

place to every single person wishing to apply with the qualifications for

:40:52.:40:59.

a nursing place within the current funding system. The question is, how

:41:00.:41:06.

do we change the system so we get more people the opportunity to study

:41:07.:41:10.

nursing? And not only that, so that we are able to better supply the

:41:11.:41:16.

nurses and the nursing positions required and the NHS. He asked an

:41:17.:41:21.

important question I'm a which is why, he should be seeing a shortage

:41:22.:41:34.

in his specific hospital of field nursing places it is a function of

:41:35.:41:38.

parts of London, there are problems in recruiting. I was in a place

:41:39.:41:45.

where they have a similar problem. There is an oversubscription for the

:41:46.:41:49.

number of places. He could have... We almost have a record number of

:41:50.:41:53.

nurses in training. How does that add up, the simple reason is this it

:41:54.:41:59.

is because under this government we have seen a significant expansion of

:42:00.:42:03.

the number of nurses in the workplace. It was in response to the

:42:04.:42:11.

tragic events admin staff, the Francis Report and the results from

:42:12.:42:18.

the inquiry. It is let us to the conclusion that has eluded previous

:42:19.:42:27.

governments. In some parts of the country, it was not fatally stabbed.

:42:28.:42:31.

That required a significant increase in the nursing numbers. Nursing

:42:32.:42:37.

members that only be provided in the short term by agency nurses inspire

:42:38.:42:41.

recently we have not only increased the number of nurses, that takes a

:42:42.:42:46.

while to come through, but we have also been required to take action on

:42:47.:42:51.

the cost of agencies themselves. That does not change the fact that

:42:52.:42:57.

it is simply impossible within the funding set up as it is at the

:42:58.:43:01.

moment is that either the demand or supply for nursing. There are other

:43:02.:43:06.

reasons, if it were not for the reason we need to do something to

:43:07.:43:14.

get it better match between nursing places them at the NHS requires and

:43:15.:43:17.

what students want to do. If it were not for the reason, I will be

:43:18.:43:23.

wanting to push this reform for this reason, I directly disagree with the

:43:24.:43:25.

honourable member in his assessment of student financing. I disagreed

:43:26.:43:29.

with him in 2011 when we have this discussion, not in this chamber, and

:43:30.:43:34.

if I may gently put it I think that this side of the House was proved

:43:35.:43:38.

right of those reforms. The simple fact is we now have more

:43:39.:43:43.

applications from disadvantaged students than ever in the history of

:43:44.:43:49.

student finance and higher education in this country. We have seen a

:43:50.:43:54.

significant expansion in the number of students. Going to higher

:43:55.:43:59.

education, 18 euros are the most -- in the most disadvantaged areas are

:44:00.:44:05.

72% more likely to apply to higher education in 2015 then in 2006. It

:44:06.:44:13.

has happened in precisely the opposite way than he and his friends

:44:14.:44:17.

on the benches when they were making the argument in 2011 expected it to

:44:18.:44:21.

happen. We are outside that it it would happen that way. He should

:44:22.:44:28.

look a bit more carefully at what happened following those referred

:44:29.:44:36.

the microforms. -- reforms. He has he also accepted the majority of

:44:37.:44:39.

that loan that will never be paid back him and this includes graduates

:44:40.:44:45.

who have far more than nurses. I hope that he will concede my central

:44:46.:44:50.

point that it still the significant majority of students going into

:44:51.:44:56.

nursing ongoing active undergraduate point. For that cohort we have seen

:44:57.:45:05.

the most spectacular expansion opportunity to higher education than

:45:06.:45:08.

at any time since higher education was opened probably to people after

:45:09.:45:14.

the Second World War. I think we should celebrate on both sides of

:45:15.:45:20.

the House, I know that they have also embraced the reforms that

:45:21.:45:23.

happen and see why it is a good thing. To be direct with him, I know

:45:24.:45:26.

that I would disagree with many on his side of the House, I want to

:45:27.:45:30.

bring those advantages to student nursing as well. In two senses, I

:45:31.:45:35.

want to expand the number of places available to people from all

:45:36.:45:38.

backgrounds so that they have the opportunity to go into nursing and I

:45:39.:45:40.

want to bring the advantages of linking old to not too -- from nine

:45:41.:45:50.

too nontraditional places. I believe passionately in that. That is what

:45:51.:45:55.

even if we are not for the reason that the NHS requires is change, but

:45:56.:46:01.

students require this change. There are 37,000 people who do not get a

:46:02.:46:06.

place to apply for it, I would not be making this change because I do

:46:07.:46:09.

believe it is the right thing to do for those who otherwise would not

:46:10.:46:15.

have been given an opportunity. I will give way. Can I press them on

:46:16.:46:23.

my honourable member about mature students? In higher education the

:46:24.:46:30.

number of mature students attending are hacked, discovered way related

:46:31.:46:32.

to the funding issues. But also the social mobility Commissioner who is

:46:33.:46:41.

is the key vehicle for mature people to express and achieve social

:46:42.:46:45.

mobility is through education. Any address directly how he will avoid

:46:46.:46:52.

mature students, mature adults going and training from following

:46:53.:46:55.

similarly as it has in higher education? If you will give me a few

:46:56.:47:03.

moments to complete. I have several things to say I mature students.

:47:04.:47:11.

That is why I want to make sure that we are turning to making sure that

:47:12.:47:22.

any showing these proposals are robust as possible. Just answer his

:47:23.:47:32.

points that he made on the consultation, we will consult on the

:47:33.:47:38.

full too fullness of the reform, we will not consult on the principle

:47:39.:47:42.

cause that has been decided. It has been a point outline my my

:47:43.:47:43.

honourable friend. Bashed by my. And the timetable is that it will

:47:44.:47:59.

begin the consultation in January. We have not determined when you will

:48:00.:48:04.

conclude precisely, it will be a full consultation. The consultation

:48:05.:48:10.

will look at a significant part about how to make sure that mature

:48:11.:48:13.

students are supported. I can confirm one element of it, we will

:48:14.:48:21.

allow mature students to apply for the loan. That will account for only

:48:22.:48:28.

a small number of the cohort. We will be looking at the particular

:48:29.:48:30.

changes and impact that these changes will make. In relation to

:48:31.:48:36.

mature students, they make up about a third of the cohort going into

:48:37.:48:44.

nursing. I am a little bit confused about his argument which appears, by

:48:45.:48:51.

removing an existing advantage he will create an advantage for more

:48:52.:48:55.

people to go into the nursing profession. I have to say, most

:48:56.:48:59.

people listening to that will find it illogical. I know that the

:49:00.:49:06.

Minster is not normally in a logical person. Would be sensible to do what

:49:07.:49:11.

my honourable friend suggested, have a proper impact assessment. And then

:49:12.:49:17.

a vote in the neighborhood apartment so we can decide on the basis of the

:49:18.:49:25.

impact assessment, -- in Parliament. I can tell them that in economic

:49:26.:49:29.

impact assessment will be published with the consultation. I hope that

:49:30.:49:34.

that will begin to inform the debate. I know that he might imagine

:49:35.:49:43.

that the proposition I am putting this not align with how he might be

:49:44.:49:50.

a fact will turn out. Can I ask them to look at what happened in 2011

:49:51.:49:53.

when we met this debate with other students, in fact the fast majority

:49:54.:49:59.

when the exact arguments were put. We have seen the opposite happened.

:50:00.:50:12.

I will give way. The fact of the matter is, we are not talking about

:50:13.:50:16.

what happened then, we are talking about a particular group at the time

:50:17.:50:20.

were excluded those provisions. He has not yet explained to us why he

:50:21.:50:24.

now has decided to include them in the provisions, other than he is

:50:25.:50:29.

going to take away an advantage that already exist. I was testing the

:50:30.:50:35.

state -- I wish to see the same advantages that those are ready on

:50:36.:50:39.

the new financial assessment have go to those who are not on it. Able to

:50:40.:50:42.

see an expansion in a number of places. I want to see the affects

:50:43.:50:48.

and the changes that it has made to university admissions and the rest

:50:49.:50:52.

of the sector applied to nursing so we can see not only an expansion in

:50:53.:50:56.

the number of nurses being trained, but also a broadening of the

:50:57.:51:00.

backgrounds of those going into nursing as it has happened and all

:51:01.:51:09.

of our higher education areas. I will explain quickly how this is

:51:10.:51:12.

part of a wider reform we are making of student access to nursing. The

:51:13.:51:24.

honourable member friend his entire speech around the University route.

:51:25.:51:31.

The amended to reflect on the fact that this government has stated that

:51:32.:51:36.

it will bring in an apprenticeship route to nursing, to level six which

:51:37.:51:42.

will give an alternative route into nursing where nurses will be able to

:51:43.:51:48.

earn while they learn from HCA levels all the way to a full nursing

:51:49.:51:57.

qualification. Added degree level. The it'll be possible for them to do

:51:58.:52:00.

so mature students which will mean that it may take a bit longer, but

:52:01.:52:05.

it means they will be able to earn all of the way from an existing job

:52:06.:52:09.

up until having a nursing qualification. An innovation which I

:52:10.:52:13.

think should be welcomed on both sides of house. It is a real

:52:14.:52:21.

opportunity for expansion. I will explain before I give way, there are

:52:22.:52:27.

many people working as health care assistance in the NHS who do not

:52:28.:52:32.

have the opportunity to be able to progress. Unless they leave the

:52:33.:52:36.

workforce to do so. That puts them in and of -- in an impossible

:52:37.:52:42.

situation because they have other duties and families to support. What

:52:43.:52:47.

we are able to do for the first time is given opportunity to that group

:52:48.:52:50.

of people to be able to progress through their partnership route.

:52:51.:52:58.

Which will expand the whole error of career progression to one of the

:52:59.:53:01.

larger cohorts in the workforce of the NHS in a way that no government

:53:02.:53:05.

has previously done. -- apprenticeship. Able to clear up

:53:06.:53:13.

some things. I wondered if could clarify, if they will be paid for

:53:14.:53:16.

doing that apprenticeship and what rates? And if in a cohort he is

:53:17.:53:25.

talking about, getting students into work, those people will not fall

:53:26.:53:30.

foul of the 16 hours that you have to work, not in training to receive

:53:31.:53:35.

the governments free childcare. On the childcare Bill committee was

:53:36.:53:38.

made that currently nurses in studying will not be able to act for

:53:39.:53:43.

that because when not be considered work. When they saved my life, it

:53:44.:53:53.

was light work. -- like. She speaks with authority from her own

:53:54.:53:58.

versatile experience. I noticed recently she has spoken her mind

:53:59.:54:09.

without holding back. But I will say to her, we are in detailed

:54:10.:54:16.

discussions now with the nursing midwifery Council about how this

:54:17.:54:20.

friendship route will work. They are the independent regular and have to

:54:21.:54:23.

certify that qualification matches the existing degree and University

:54:24.:54:28.

route. It has to have completed quality on both a steam and rigor.

:54:29.:54:40.

The apprentices will get a salary. -- a esteemed. You ask back to

:54:41.:54:55.

continue with a similar salary point as an apprentice. I will take her

:54:56.:55:01.

particular question, the concern about maternity care, it pertains to

:55:02.:55:06.

student nurses rather than apprentices. I will write her a

:55:07.:55:12.

detail about it. I hope that what she will realize that asking her

:55:13.:55:18.

question, she does have strength behind this. There will be two roots

:55:19.:55:25.

and to nursing, one of the University, the other the

:55:26.:55:29.

apprenticeship. This is one of the most exciting innovations in the

:55:30.:55:35.

workforce of the NHS for several decades, opens up nursing to a whole

:55:36.:55:40.

range of existing people who have not had an opportunity before and

:55:41.:55:43.

provides a different route into nursing. With the same rigor and

:55:44.:55:49.

robustness which the existing university degree route gives. I

:55:50.:55:51.

will give way once more. He cares about getting of mature

:55:52.:56:03.

students into nursing and training programmes. If numbers do fall going

:56:04.:56:08.

forward, will he come back to the house and report on it? Will hit

:56:09.:56:12.

pause any further reforms until the decline is halted? I expect to be

:56:13.:56:21.

held accountable for this significant reform all the way

:56:22.:56:25.

through the changes that are in there envisaged. I hope to return it

:56:26.:56:33.

with good news about progress as it has happened with other areas. We

:56:34.:56:37.

want to be deliberative about the way that we form this consultation.

:56:38.:56:40.

It is important that we get it right. I note the careful

:56:41.:56:49.

questioning. He understands the full gamut of the issues that need to be

:56:50.:56:54.

addressed in this consultation. I will at answer some of those. He

:56:55.:57:01.

asked about pinnacle placement and the funding of them. We have started

:57:02.:57:06.

discussions about that with universities, and that will form

:57:07.:57:10.

part of the wider consultation. The consequentialist will be a matter

:57:11.:57:16.

for the Treasury, as they are for everything else. Officials are

:57:17.:57:21.

discussing that in the normal way. He asked about research into

:57:22.:57:27.

financial hardship, and that will form a part of the consultation. The

:57:28.:57:31.

government will be open to further research beyond the economic impact

:57:32.:57:35.

assessment. He asked whether I would be happy to meet students, and of

:57:36.:57:39.

course I would be. I have already met unison and a nursing

:57:40.:57:43.

organisation, and discussed the changes that I wish to make. I

:57:44.:57:50.

shouldn't pretend to answer for them, but I have had productive

:57:51.:57:54.

discussions with both, especially around the apprenticeship route. I

:57:55.:58:01.

know that we will disagree about bursaries, but with unison in

:58:02.:58:05.

particular I think that there is an understanding to open up different

:58:06.:58:12.

routes into the nursing workforce. I think that the model will be a

:58:13.:58:14.

strong one. The member made an important point

:58:15.:58:28.

about agency nurses. As I enter that as I am passing. Part of the reason

:58:29.:58:33.

why are we are looking at this is to make sure that we provide a more

:58:34.:58:43.

sustainable workforce, so that we can not rely on agencies and the

:58:44.:58:49.

thanks Steph for the peaks in NHS demand. That is why we need to do

:58:50.:58:55.

something around numbers, and why I hope we will be increasing the

:58:56.:58:59.

numbers by 10,000 over the course of this Parliament. That is a

:59:00.:59:03.

significant increase in establishing student nurses. It would be the

:59:04.:59:09.

largest increase in student nurses in any government since 1948. I hope

:59:10.:59:15.

I have answered the majority of the questions. Clearly I haven't.

:59:16.:59:20.

LAUGHTER I will give an opportunity once more, but I do not want to keep

:59:21.:59:24.

the house much longer. I welcome what he said about treading

:59:25.:59:28.

carefully and thoughtfully around the consultation. What he has not

:59:29.:59:32.

addressed whether or not extending the tuition fee regime to all of the

:59:33.:59:41.

students would be subject to thoughtful debate followed by a vote

:59:42.:59:47.

in this house, and the other place? I can't give him a definitive answer

:59:48.:59:51.

to that yet, because I think that we will wait and see what the outcome

:59:52.:59:55.

of the consultation is so that the house can be better informed. I

:59:56.:00:01.

imagine there will be opportunities and a for debates. I know that he

:00:02.:00:07.

will want to bring it. I reflect his concerns to the secretary of state

:00:08.:00:10.

and to the Leader of the House, who I am sure will receive them with

:00:11.:00:15.

interest. I thank you for bringing this, because it gives us an

:00:16.:00:19.

opportunity to explain our rationales. There will be points

:00:20.:00:24.

where we disagree, but I hope that you will see the force of our

:00:25.:00:27.

arguments about what we want to do to expand the nursing workforce to

:00:28.:00:33.

provide different routes into nursing, and to provide

:00:34.:00:36.

opportunities to 18 and 19-year-old undergraduate nurses that have been

:00:37.:00:40.

extended to other parts of the higher education sphere. These are

:00:41.:00:46.

big proposals, and they could mean a rapid transfer mission of the NHS

:00:47.:00:52.

workforce, and expansion in the number of nursing students. I hope

:00:53.:00:57.

for a constructive discussion across the house with the kind of expertise

:00:58.:01:06.

that we have heard from members. The question is that this House do now

:01:07.:01:16.

adjourn. As many of the opinion said ayes. The ayes habit. -- have it.

:01:17.:01:27.

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