Browse content similar to 14/01/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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importance of the integrity and security of e-mail systems. I give | :00:00. | :00:00. | |
assurance to the House that this is indeed the case. Point of order Mr | :00:00. | :00:11. | |
Chris Bryant. The leader of the House has twice that that the | :00:12. | :00:18. | |
student Finance measure that was being considered at 11:30 a.m., | :00:19. | :00:23. | |
there will automatically be a vote of the whole House, on the remaining | :00:24. | :00:28. | |
orders of the day. But is not the case. I would say this gently to the | :00:29. | :00:35. | |
leader of the House commie does not understand the rules in rel`tion to | :00:36. | :00:40. | |
this. Because it is going through a negative process, unless thdre is a | :00:41. | :00:44. | |
motion carried in the House which says it should not pass into law by | :00:45. | :00:49. | |
the 23rd of January, which has to be tabled by him or the governlent it | :00:50. | :00:53. | |
could in theory be tabled bx us on opposition day. Unless it is | :00:54. | :00:58. | |
formally tabled, it cannot come to pass. I would say to the le`der of | :00:59. | :01:03. | |
the House, he should not inadvertently mislead us by | :01:04. | :01:07. | |
suggesting this will happen automatically. If he is sayhng he | :01:08. | :01:12. | |
will table a motion and allow for a debate, we will be very grateful, | :01:13. | :01:15. | |
but he should not inadvertently mislead the house. I'm sure the | :01:16. | :01:21. | |
shadow leader is not inadvertently making a speech to the leaddr of the | :01:22. | :01:24. | |
House, ease asking for my gtidance, House, ease asking for my gtidance, | :01:25. | :01:30. | |
which I'm very happy to provide If that guidance happens to cohncide | :01:31. | :01:36. | |
with his own interpretation of matters, he would dance arotnd the | :01:37. | :01:42. | |
mulberry bush in celebration. Let me tell the honourable gentlem`n what | :01:43. | :01:47. | |
the position is, voting conditions are being debated in the colmittee | :01:48. | :01:48. | |
upstairs as we speak. As a reference upstairs as we speak. As a reference | :01:49. | :01:54. | |
moved by the ministers. A motion against the regulations, I'l sure | :01:55. | :02:02. | |
the House is with me so far, that is a prosaic procedure. It is open to | :02:03. | :02:06. | |
ministers to bring forward the prior four decision in the House without | :02:07. | :02:08. | |
forward by the position on `n further debate. Or it can bd | :02:09. | :02:16. | |
forward by the position on `n opposition day for determin`tion by | :02:17. | :02:24. | |
the House. That is the situ`tion. If the honourable gentleman is | :02:25. | :02:27. | |
quizzical, I would not wishhng to remain so. Very grateful for your | :02:28. | :02:30. | |
not sure whether you heard that the guidance, can more guidance? I was | :02:31. | :02:36. | |
not sure whether you heard that the deputy leader of the House said that | :02:37. | :02:41. | |
is what is going to happen. That is not what the gunmen have saxs. That | :02:42. | :02:48. | |
they will bring forward a motion, so there is a vote. Does not h`ppen | :02:49. | :02:52. | |
automatically, the government has to decide it is going to do it, as I | :02:53. | :02:57. | |
understand it. If the leader of the House would nod to say that is what | :02:58. | :03:08. | |
they are going to do... The honourable gentleman is an dxtremely | :03:09. | :03:12. | |
important member of this Hotse, nobody is more keenly conschous of | :03:13. | :03:18. | |
the fact that the honourabld gentleman, but it is not for the | :03:19. | :03:21. | |
honourable gentleman to seek to persuade, cajole or seek people to | :03:22. | :03:26. | |
nod. If the Leader of the House or the deputy leader wishes to give a | :03:27. | :03:28. | |
clear indication to the House of the clear indication to the House | :03:29. | :03:33. | |
government's intentions in respect of this matter, or the centrality or | :03:34. | :03:37. | |
otherwise of the chamber to the resolution, either of them `re | :03:38. | :03:42. | |
perfectly free to do so, but neither of them is under any obligation A | :03:43. | :03:48. | |
case of speak now, if not forever hold your peace, for the tile being | :03:49. | :03:56. | |
do so. I did not hear the ddputy leader. I'm not going to announce | :03:57. | :04:01. | |
the business to the House, but it is the case as you already said, any | :04:02. | :04:07. | |
member can go and participate in that debate now and it is for the | :04:08. | :04:11. | |
gunmen to decide whether to bring it forward, as he pointed out hn your | :04:12. | :04:15. | |
guidance. I think we will ldave it there for now. Right honour`ble | :04:16. | :04:23. | |
members and honourable membdrs will thank her for what she has said If | :04:24. | :04:29. | |
there are no further points of order, we come very shortly to the | :04:30. | :04:36. | |
public administration and Bernard Jenkin, the | :04:37. | :04:40. | |
public administration and Constitutional affairs commhttee | :04:41. | :04:43. | |
will speak for no more than ten minutes, during which time, I remind | :04:44. | :04:48. | |
colleagues, no interventions may be taken. At the inclusion of this | :04:49. | :04:54. | |
statement, I will call membdrs to put questions on the subject of the | :04:55. | :05:00. | |
statement, and call Mr Bern`rd Jenkin to return to these in turn. | :05:01. | :05:05. | |
Members can expect to be called only once. Interventions should be | :05:06. | :05:12. | |
questions, and should be brhef. The front may take part in questioning. | :05:13. | :05:18. | |
I now call the chair of the public administration and Constitutional | :05:19. | :05:22. | |
Mr Speaker, grateful to the House, Mr Bernard Jenkin. Thank you | :05:23. | :05:30. | |
backbench business committed for the opportunity to make this st`tement | :05:31. | :05:35. | |
on the report into our brief enquiry into the appointment of the UK | :05:36. | :05:40. | |
delegation to the Parliamentary assembly to the Council of Durope, | :05:41. | :05:45. | |
published today. When the mdmbership of the new delegation was announced | :05:46. | :05:49. | |
in November, there was some disquiet amongst some honourable members | :05:50. | :05:56. | |
including myself, about the way the delegation was chosen and appointed. | :05:57. | :06:01. | |
Concerns were raised by colleagues and the media, that the way some | :06:02. | :06:07. | |
conservatives voted to defe`t the government into the amendment into | :06:08. | :06:11. | |
influenced those decisions. It has influenced those decisions. It has | :06:12. | :06:16. | |
been established practice until this Parliament for the existing members | :06:17. | :06:20. | |
to choose to retire from thd delegation and potential new members | :06:21. | :06:24. | |
to express interest in joinhng. This was not the case in November, when | :06:25. | :06:31. | |
certain right honourable melbers and honourable members were removed from | :06:32. | :06:36. | |
the delegation. Some of those removed wanted to continue, | :06:37. | :06:42. | |
including my right honourable friends for Christchurch, Alersham | :06:43. | :06:49. | |
and Gainsborough. The House should note, my right honourable friend for | :06:50. | :06:54. | |
Chesham and Amersham is a mdmber, and excused herself from thd | :06:55. | :06:58. | |
committee proceedings of thhs matter. In electing a new ddlegation | :06:59. | :07:08. | |
for the present year, which saw a backbench vote defeated. Thd | :07:09. | :07:13. | |
committee resolved to invitd the leader of the to give oral dvidence | :07:14. | :07:16. | |
on the matter. We also recehved written evidence from my frhend from | :07:17. | :07:22. | |
North Thanet, the newly appointed leader to the delegation for the | :07:23. | :07:27. | |
Council of Europe. We received very late in the process written evidence | :07:28. | :07:36. | |
from my right honourable frhend from Christchurch, we completed `nd | :07:37. | :07:41. | |
resolved to make a report bdfore the evidence reached me all the members | :07:42. | :07:45. | |
regret this. His evidence is regret this. His evidence is | :07:46. | :07:50. | |
nevertheless published on otr website, and it would not alter the | :07:51. | :07:55. | |
substance of our recommendations, but speaks for itself. The | :07:56. | :07:58. | |
Parliamentary assembly to the Council of Europe does not restrict | :07:59. | :08:02. | |
how delegates should be appointed. The rules committee states states | :08:03. | :08:09. | |
that they are elected and appointed from the members of each party in | :08:10. | :08:13. | |
such manner as it shall dechde. At present my committee heard | :08:14. | :08:18. | |
Conservative Party user system based on patronage of the leader, the | :08:19. | :08:23. | |
so-called usual channels, the whips office. As such, we concludd the | :08:24. | :08:28. | |
government has not broken any rules of the assembly. Although the | :08:29. | :08:39. | |
recommendation is that the TK Parliament should review with the | :08:40. | :08:43. | |
utmost diligence the way thd committee is elected, and bring it | :08:44. | :08:46. | |
fully into line with UK democratic principles. Mr Speaker, this | :08:47. | :08:51. | |
Parliament is not bound to take any action on that advice. Nevertheless | :08:52. | :08:55. | |
we recommend the House should revise the way delegates are chosen in | :08:56. | :09:01. | |
future on the basis this is how a great Parliament makes decisions, | :09:02. | :09:04. | |
and we should represent a hhgher standards of democracy and | :09:05. | :09:11. | |
accountability to our fellow European parliamentarians. We | :09:12. | :09:14. | |
recommend that in future thd delegation should be elected, not | :09:15. | :09:18. | |
appointed by the Prime Minister as now, and moreover elected bx the | :09:19. | :09:24. | |
House of Commons membership, similarly to select committdes, also | :09:25. | :09:31. | |
reflecting the gender balance. This means the House can object to | :09:32. | :09:36. | |
delegation members deemed unsuitable, as is the case with | :09:37. | :09:40. | |
motions on the appointment of select committees. This has not bedn the | :09:41. | :09:47. | |
committees, it seems only rhght that of the elections of select | :09:48. | :09:55. | |
this extends the Parliament`ry delegations. Future delegathons | :09:56. | :09:59. | |
should be choosing by three fair and open elections. Subject to this the | :10:00. | :10:06. | |
procedure committee can consider how this reform may be fermented to | :10:07. | :10:11. | |
reflect the gender balance requirement. We also recommdnd that | :10:12. | :10:14. | |
this system of election could be extended to other delegations, such | :10:15. | :10:19. | |
as Nato, the organisation of Security and cooperation in Europe, | :10:20. | :10:22. | |
and to the British and Irish Parliamentary assembly. I vdry much | :10:23. | :10:27. | |
hope the House will welcome this proposal for democratic reform in | :10:28. | :10:33. | |
significant Parliamentary significant Parliamentary | :10:34. | :10:37. | |
delegations and will approvd it soon. Grateful to the chair of the | :10:38. | :10:44. | |
committee. Thank you Mr Spe`ker yet again we appear to be intruding on | :10:45. | :10:48. | |
the private grief of the Conservative Party. While I take no | :10:49. | :10:53. | |
joy in that, can I welcome the statement and the reporter concerns? | :10:54. | :11:02. | |
It echoes the collective vidw from these benches that the UK ddlegation | :11:03. | :11:04. | |
to the Parliamentary assembly to the Parliamentary Council of Europe | :11:05. | :11:07. | |
should be elected on a democratic basis. We welcome the proposals in | :11:08. | :11:12. | |
the report. Could the honourable member confirmed this is thd first | :11:13. | :11:18. | |
that only such examination to this House and how it chooses its | :11:19. | :11:22. | |
Parliamentary delegation. If so and if it is agreed will be inctmbent on | :11:23. | :11:27. | |
the party opposite to you follow these recommendations? I believe it | :11:28. | :11:33. | |
is the first time that any review of this procedure has been unddrtaken. | :11:34. | :11:36. | |
That complies with the requdst made to us by the rules committed of the | :11:37. | :11:38. | |
matter for the House as to how this Parliamentary assembly. | :11:39. | :11:44. | |
matter for the House as to how this is taken forward. The House as a | :11:45. | :11:49. | |
whole. This committee cannot find the house as to how it should go | :11:50. | :11:56. | |
forward. Maybe the opposition will make time to see that the House has | :11:57. | :12:03. | |
time to debate our recommendations. Mr Speaker, can I thank my | :12:04. | :12:06. | |
honourable friend and the mdmbers of this committee for this verx | :12:07. | :12:13. | |
thorough report? Can I ask him what he intends to do to try and ensure | :12:14. | :12:17. | |
that his recommendations ard carried forward? Even in the face of | :12:18. | :12:22. | |
implacable opposition from the government? How can this Hotse of | :12:23. | :12:37. | |
Commons take control of this issue and ensure that members of the House | :12:38. | :12:48. | |
Her Majesty's positions shotld take Her Majesty's positions shotld | :12:49. | :12:53. | |
member of my committee will support that. Can I first say that H'm | :12:54. | :13:03. | |
delighted to this report, and applaud the chair of the select | :13:04. | :13:07. | |
committee on what he has sahd? Would he not accept, there has bedn a | :13:08. | :13:14. | |
cultural change, which is vdry welcome over the last 15 ye`rs in | :13:15. | :13:22. | |
that millions by the, and the whip that millions by the, and the whip | :13:23. | :13:29. | |
has more or less disappeared, and that is a welcome change? | :13:30. | :13:33. | |
I very much agree. People dhfferent expectation as to how these things | :13:34. | :13:45. | |
should be done now. The present system, and I have in my hand a | :13:46. | :13:50. | |
entitled appointment to the UK entitled appointment to the UK | :13:51. | :13:57. | |
delegation for the Council of Europe. Removing one peer and | :13:58. | :14:02. | |
appointing another. The statement is issued by the Prime Minister. He a | :14:03. | :14:08. | |
parliamentarian, leader of tp little party. The expectation now hs these | :14:09. | :14:13. | |
matters should be handled bx two respective houses and not the | :14:14. | :14:23. | |
decision-making of the execttive. The usual channels means decisions | :14:24. | :14:27. | |
being made in secret and re`sons not being given and been very lhttle | :14:28. | :14:31. | |
improve on that. I very much welcome improve on that. I very much welcome | :14:32. | :14:39. | |
what I write honourable fridnd has to say about people being elected | :14:40. | :14:46. | |
rather than appointed. We obviously await the government's form`l | :14:47. | :14:50. | |
response to this report. Has he had any indication is the government | :14:51. | :14:56. | |
might be sympathetic to what has committee has decided? I can confirm | :14:57. | :15:05. | |
it was agreed unanimously. The only evidence we have taken from | :15:06. | :15:08. | |
government is the oral eviddnce we took from the leader of the House. | :15:09. | :15:15. | |
As we are learning what minhsters private thoughts might be on certain | :15:16. | :15:19. | |
matters might not reflect what they see as ministers of the House. I | :15:20. | :15:26. | |
hope the government will reflect on the right committee and the success | :15:27. | :15:29. | |
of select committee elections and will recognise times are ch`nging. | :15:30. | :15:35. | |
The idea they would hand out delegate places to members of | :15:36. | :15:43. | |
Parliament on the basis of grace and favour, these days are over. This | :15:44. | :15:47. | |
does not win us respect in the does not win us respect in the | :15:48. | :15:52. | |
Council of Europe or amongst other parliamentarians across Europe to | :15:53. | :15:54. | |
whom this House should be sdtting an example. As the longest serving | :15:55. | :16:05. | |
member of the Council of Europe I congratulate the committee `nd the | :16:06. | :16:08. | |
chairman of the impartial w`y it has dealt with this matter. Nevdr in the | :16:09. | :16:14. | |
years I have been on the Cotncil of Europe did I envisage a day when a | :16:15. | :16:19. | |
committee of the Council of Europe would say to the United Kingdom it | :16:20. | :16:24. | |
has been the gold standard for Democratic integrity for thd past 70 | :16:25. | :16:29. | |
years, that they would say to us the United Kingdom should bring its | :16:30. | :16:33. | |
standards and democratic accountability up to those of | :16:34. | :16:39. | |
Azerbaijan and Bulgaria. Thhs has been a shameful period for the | :16:40. | :16:45. | |
United Kingdom and will the member tell us how he wishes to emphasise | :16:46. | :16:51. | |
the points in the recommend`tion, particularly the one that it is not | :16:52. | :17:02. | |
the delegation that is elected, not the leader, but members of the | :17:03. | :17:05. | |
no part to play whatsoever. We're no part to play whatsoever. We're | :17:06. | :17:13. | |
going back on the spirit of the right of reforms unless this is | :17:14. | :17:18. | |
changed quickly. I pay tribtte to the longest serving member of the | :17:19. | :17:33. | |
Council of Europe. He has bden an enormous fund of institutional | :17:34. | :17:37. | |
memory of that committee, which is extremely useful. He pointed out to | :17:38. | :17:41. | |
us during the enquiry his p`rty has a form of elections for its | :17:42. | :17:47. | |
delegates and provides for the complexity providing a genddr | :17:48. | :17:51. | |
balance so some of these objections that have been raised we can't do | :17:52. | :17:56. | |
this are clearly confounded by the experience of his own party. It | :17:57. | :18:00. | |
would be a mistake to see this episode has brought shame on our | :18:01. | :18:03. | |
country. He is right to makd comparisons with other countries | :18:04. | :18:06. | |
that do things better, but the rules committee made it clear that people | :18:07. | :18:11. | |
might have misunderstood thd confusion of roles we have hn this | :18:12. | :18:14. | |
House, that the Prime Minister is also leader of the governing party | :18:15. | :18:21. | |
and set has a parliamentari`n, and the expectation of the more | :18:22. | :18:28. | |
classical separation and powers does not exist in our Constitution. This | :18:29. | :18:32. | |
is not a matter of shame for us but I think we are a bit behind the | :18:33. | :18:38. | |
times now. I think we should be demonstrating how in our own | :18:39. | :18:42. | |
procedures we expect the best practices and most open and | :18:43. | :18:44. | |
democratic practices to be `dopted, rather than something that hs from | :18:45. | :18:51. | |
the age of deference, rather than the age of popular democracx. Can I | :18:52. | :18:58. | |
also commend the chairman of the committee on this report? I confess | :18:59. | :19:07. | |
to find it strange the Primd Minister has sought to excltde | :19:08. | :19:17. | |
troublemakers. Can ask the chairman why he thought the Prime Minister | :19:18. | :19:23. | |
didn't heed the unfortunate experience of Tony Blair and Robin | :19:24. | :19:29. | |
Cook when the disastrously tried to intervene and change the | :19:30. | :19:31. | |
chairmanships of the transport and foreign affairs select commhttee? | :19:32. | :19:42. | |
Can he explain why this... Without straying too much into Greek | :19:43. | :19:52. | |
terminology, I think what Prime ministers have, they tend to want to | :19:53. | :19:59. | |
keep and not give up. I don't think... I think there was perhaps a | :20:00. | :20:03. | |
failure of imagination about the effects of what they wanted to do, | :20:04. | :20:08. | |
but it is providing this Hotse was an opportunity to review and debate. | :20:09. | :20:10. | |
I hope in due course to dechde on I hope in due course to dechde on | :20:11. | :20:17. | |
how to make sure that we brhng our procedures into the democratic age. | :20:18. | :20:23. | |
I congratulate him for his statement. This report has been | :20:24. | :20:33. | |
produced in a timely fashion. He has lifted the stone from the r`ther | :20:34. | :20:37. | |
murky and grubby world of the use and abuse of government patronage. I | :20:38. | :20:44. | |
congratulate him for doing that I support his recommendations. We have | :20:45. | :20:54. | |
a perfect opportunity to eldct all representatives to internathonal | :20:55. | :21:05. | |
bodies on a full and fair b`sis I think his recommendations should | :21:06. | :21:10. | |
form part of emotion that could be voted on by this House. Now we have | :21:11. | :21:15. | |
heard from the Member for Great Grimsby that we have the support of | :21:16. | :21:27. | |
the opposition front bench. It would be a wonderful opportunity to | :21:28. | :21:31. | |
demonstrate this House is bdhind his recommendations. I am flattdred by | :21:32. | :21:38. | |
his invitation. I think it hs important that were I to undertake | :21:39. | :21:45. | |
to do this I would want somd assurances from those who s`y they | :21:46. | :21:51. | |
support these proposals that he will make strenuous efforts to m`ke sure | :21:52. | :21:55. | |
people turn up and vote for them. Very often, we have debates in this | :21:56. | :22:02. | |
House, few people turn up and the government decides it takes no | :22:03. | :22:05. | |
notice. I noticed the honourable lady on the front bench nodding and | :22:06. | :22:12. | |
saying that may well be the case. I will consider it. I hope to bring | :22:13. | :22:19. | |
forward perhaps a motion th`t is proposed by every member of my | :22:20. | :22:24. | |
committee. Order. We now cole to the backbench motion on space policy. To | :22:25. | :22:32. | |
move the motion, I call Philippa Whitford. I beg to move the motion | :22:33. | :22:41. | |
name of other cross party mdmbers, name of other cross party mdmbers, | :22:42. | :22:46. | |
as written in the order papdr. The motion, if you read it, you will see | :22:47. | :22:53. | |
it covers an incredible bre`dth and depth of this industry. And its | :22:54. | :22:59. | |
amazing potential. I hope over the debate that will be covered by | :23:00. | :23:03. | |
people from different parts of the United Kingdom. Some people, I have | :23:04. | :23:08. | |
some fairly sure puns and I would some fairly sure puns and I would | :23:09. | :23:16. | |
like to register at this pohnt I accept no responsibility. I lay the | :23:17. | :23:19. | |
blame at the feet of the Prhme Minister who has stripped to using | :23:20. | :23:23. | |
some pretty shocking puns in recent Question times, from which he needs | :23:24. | :23:28. | |
to be penitent. Some people who follow the media will be aw`re that | :23:29. | :23:33. | |
our former Foreign Minister -- First Minister, the Right honourable | :23:34. | :23:37. | |
member for Gordon, has used as a travelling pseudonym the nale of | :23:38. | :23:38. | |
that famous captain of the SS that | :23:39. | :23:43. | |
enterprise. For a debate as important as this, I felt wd should | :23:44. | :23:49. | |
contact the real McCoy. I therefore have a message to the House of | :23:50. | :23:54. | |
Commons from William Shatner. Space is one of the last known frontiers. | :23:55. | :24:00. | |
Mostly untouched eye mankind in his politics. In opening a debate on the | :24:01. | :24:01. | |
subject, it is my hope you take the subject, it is my hope | :24:02. | :24:06. | |
tenants of Star Trek's primd directives, to universally `nd | :24:07. | :24:10. | |
peacefully share in the exploration of it. I wish you all a wonderful | :24:11. | :24:19. | |
debate. My best, Bill. We also have had, as some people will have seen | :24:20. | :24:24. | |
on Twitter, a message from George Tokai, otherwise known as Mr Sulu. | :24:25. | :24:29. | |
Wishing us luck as we venture to the stars. This debate is not a debate | :24:30. | :24:35. | |
to get the debate on this d`y to to get the debate on this d`y to | :24:36. | :24:49. | |
honour major Tim Peake, currently on the International Space Station He | :24:50. | :24:56. | |
is not the first British astronaut. That honour was Doctor Helen Sharman | :24:57. | :25:04. | |
from Yorkshire in 1991. I fhnd it appropriate that prior to that she | :25:05. | :25:10. | |
Peake is is our first astronaut will get worse! But what | :25:11. | :25:20. | |
Peake is is our first astronaut through an increased engagelent with | :25:21. | :25:23. | |
the European Space Agency. @nd while Helen Sharman was in the mere | :25:24. | :25:27. | |
station, he is in the International Space Station. Tomorrow, he will | :25:28. | :25:34. | |
take part in the very first British space rock. This will start | :25:35. | :25:39. | |
hopefully at 11:30am tomorrow morning GMT and I would encourage | :25:40. | :25:42. | |
schools and children, youngsters of all ages, to log in and watch this | :25:43. | :25:55. | |
historic moment. He has been tasked to change regulators on the solar | :25:56. | :26:02. | |
panels. These are high volt`ge regulators. This what has to be | :26:03. | :26:07. | |
entirely carried out on the dark side. I am a member of the | :26:08. | :26:15. | |
parliamentary space committde. We had a great opportunity to have a | :26:16. | :26:16. | |
private tour of the cosmonatts private tour of the cosmonatts | :26:17. | :26:23. | |
exhibition in the science Mtseum. I recommend it to all. Be spent four | :26:24. | :26:27. | |
years negotiating with Russha to bring incredible artefacts to this | :26:28. | :26:34. | |
country. The space capsule, uniforms of Yuri Gagarin, all sorts of pieces | :26:35. | :26:40. | |
of real hardware. People in Russia did not know they existed. The thing | :26:41. | :26:45. | |
that struck me as we went round to museum is that during point of | :26:46. | :26:48. | |
incredible friction between Russia and the US, and across the world, | :26:49. | :26:55. | |
back channels always remaindd open. Cooperation always continued on the | :26:56. | :27:00. | |
International Space Station. In these few years of setting tp this | :27:01. | :27:06. | |
exhibition, we have seen frhction over Ukraine, Crimea and Syria. If | :27:07. | :27:14. | |
we can work so well together in space, it would be good if we could | :27:15. | :27:21. | |
work better together on our. I referred to Prestwick as behng in my | :27:22. | :27:26. | |
constituency in my maiden speech. It is on the short list for behng | :27:27. | :27:29. | |
considered as a spaceport. During the election, people would laugh. To | :27:30. | :27:35. | |
us in this country, we think space is for other people. For thd big | :27:36. | :27:44. | |
boys. North America, Russia, maybe China. Not as. That is something we | :27:45. | :27:47. | |
must change. We need to belheve what we can do. Major Tim Peake's mission | :27:48. | :27:55. | |
will do that. We see interest of schoolchildren, the science Museum | :27:56. | :27:57. | |
was packed on the day of thd launch with members in this place watching | :27:58. | :28:02. | |
it live on screen. We hope that will lead to an interest in this subject | :28:03. | :28:09. | |
and an absolute belief in the space industry in the United Kingdom. The | :28:10. | :28:18. | |
space industry is new. The TK has a private aviation history. Rolls | :28:19. | :28:21. | |
Royce, supersonic flight. Wd need to take that to the next step `nd grasp | :28:22. | :28:27. | |
the opportunity. That industry has changed over the last five xears. I | :28:28. | :28:34. | |
led to the formation of the UK space led to the formation of the UK space | :28:35. | :28:40. | |
agency. It is now an industry with a turnover of 11.5 billion and employs | :28:41. | :28:45. | |
35,000 people. Three quarters of them are graduate jobs. A third of | :28:46. | :28:51. | |
their production is export. Division of the Department is this should | :28:52. | :28:58. | |
grow to be a ?40 billion industry. For that, we really need to take | :28:59. | :29:00. | |
action. I think if it was not a polhtical | :29:01. | :29:18. | |
decision, there should be no doubt it is touchable. We have a runway | :29:19. | :29:26. | |
that touches 3.5 kilometres, we are surrounded by sea. We have ` | :29:27. | :29:29. | |
coordination centre which whll allow coordination centre which whll allow | :29:30. | :29:35. | |
some planning of the airspace, and the relatively empty airspace. We | :29:36. | :29:39. | |
are close to Glasgow University in Strathclyde. We uniquely have an | :29:40. | :29:46. | |
aerospace cluster on the airport campus. This contains BAE sxstems, | :29:47. | :29:57. | |
Spirit systems, all of human are interested in the idea of the | :29:58. | :30:02. | |
spaceport. Up the road from us is Clive Space, early communic`tion | :30:03. | :30:11. | |
satellites will weighed tonnes, the size of a double-decker bus. The UK, | :30:12. | :30:18. | |
through saris Satellites have led the way in reducing 1's the size of | :30:19. | :30:23. | |
the fridge. That is a step change. It is shown that if the cost of | :30:24. | :30:29. | |
getting a satellite in spacd is down to the tens of thousands, everybody | :30:30. | :30:34. | |
is going to want one. We will have is going to want one. We will have | :30:35. | :30:35. | |
to look at the regulation of that or space will just be full of junk It | :30:36. | :30:41. | |
enables all sorts of possibhlities. We do not have a domestic l`unch | :30:42. | :30:46. | |
site. That is why the aim is to have a UK spaceport by 2018. As well as | :30:47. | :30:52. | |
Prestwick. Despite preconceptions, Prestwick. Despite preconceptions, | :30:53. | :30:59. | |
20 years of Met Office data shows that Prestwick as the cleardst | :31:00. | :31:05. | |
weather, compared with Newqtay, which people presume is the closest | :31:06. | :31:11. | |
contender, low cloud is suffered by Newquay 31% of the time, and only | :31:12. | :31:15. | |
11% of Prestwick. Less than five kilometre visibility is suffered by | :31:16. | :31:21. | |
Newquay 15% of the time, and only four percent in Prestwick. H live in | :31:22. | :31:27. | |
Troon, and can vouch that wd have a weird little weather system known as | :31:28. | :31:33. | |
the Prestwick hole. You fly into it, drive into it, walking to bd, you | :31:34. | :31:38. | |
can be surrounded by thick cloud, and you will see a large hole of | :31:39. | :31:44. | |
pure sky. This has made Prestwick the clear whether airport of the | :31:45. | :31:48. | |
United Kingdom for decades. I would call on the Minister not just to | :31:49. | :31:54. | |
look at having one spaceport, I believe this is an industry that is | :31:55. | :31:57. | |
going to mushroom. I think we need to accept them will be all sorts of | :31:58. | :32:00. | |
sectors that will develop that we sectors that will | :32:01. | :32:04. | |
have not even thought of. I think it will diversify. This is a rdal | :32:05. | :32:12. | |
industry, not the beam me up Scotty, or fretting about crystals that we | :32:13. | :32:16. | |
see on the telly. This is a multi-billion pound industrx. I | :32:17. | :32:22. | |
would call on the Minister to be imaginative, and to be bravd. TB | :32:23. | :32:27. | |
boldly going where no Minister has gone before. Rarely done! I'm sure | :32:28. | :32:37. | |
you will have about two hours. I would just like to say in closing, | :32:38. | :32:42. | |
Prestwick is Scotland's first-ever passenger airport, founded by Group | :32:43. | :32:49. | |
Captain David McIntyre, the first man to fly over Everest. Thhs is the | :32:50. | :32:54. | |
kind of imagination and drive that we need. I call on the Minister to | :32:55. | :32:59. | |
please be imaginative, enable this industry across the entire TK, so | :33:00. | :33:09. | |
that they can live long and prosper. The question is, as on the order | :33:10. | :33:20. | |
paper, doctor Philip Lee. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. A privilege to | :33:21. | :33:25. | |
follow the member for Centr`l Ayrshire. I believe we're in same | :33:26. | :33:31. | |
party, every time you speak I find myself agreeing with you | :33:32. | :33:35. | |
wholeheartedly on a variety of issues. She will not know, Ladam | :33:36. | :33:43. | |
Deputy Speaker, my maiden speech in 2010, I rather surprisingly, to some | :33:44. | :33:49. | |
colleagues, spoke about Newpuay and the space industry, I was advised by | :33:50. | :33:54. | |
some wise owls in this part, that I should not speak about the space | :33:55. | :33:58. | |
industry, because I would bd ridiculed as the spaceman of the | :33:59. | :34:02. | |
House of Commons. A year or so later, I organised a debate in this | :34:03. | :34:09. | |
chamber, where I discussed the subject of microgravity, and during | :34:10. | :34:17. | |
that speech, I spoke about the value of protein crystal investig`tion in | :34:18. | :34:20. | |
space will stop the potenti`l for doing variety of biotechnological | :34:21. | :34:26. | |
and medical experiments in space, and how this could advance our | :34:27. | :34:33. | |
knowledge base. I see that lajor Tim Peake is doing all of that now. That | :34:34. | :34:38. | |
debate in Parliament, I likd to think led to the government's | :34:39. | :34:39. | |
decision at the time to invdst in decision at the time to invdst in | :34:40. | :34:46. | |
the European Space Agency programme, and it is that investment which led | :34:47. | :34:53. | |
to space on the rocket to gdt lots of the International Space Station, | :34:54. | :34:58. | |
that Tim Peake took. Tim Pe`ke, is expert field, was microgravhty. Why | :34:59. | :35:05. | |
did I make the decision to lention did I make the decision to lention | :35:06. | :35:14. | |
the space industry in 2010? Hardly any space industry presence in my | :35:15. | :35:20. | |
constituents leap. Why do they take time in the House to talk about | :35:21. | :35:24. | |
microgravity? It was becausd as the honourable member has eloqudntly | :35:25. | :35:28. | |
pointed out, there is something about space, the exploration of | :35:29. | :35:35. | |
thereof, and manned exploration in-flight that is so truly | :35:36. | :35:42. | |
Wherever I go to do visits to Wherever I go to | :35:43. | :35:47. | |
schools, science, technologx and mathematics weeks, invariably there | :35:48. | :35:51. | |
are planets, pictures of pl`nets. Pictures of rockets. There hs | :35:52. | :35:56. | |
something about space and the exploration of space that inspires | :35:57. | :36:01. | |
young people. There is one statistic that up to 40% of engineers, when | :36:02. | :36:06. | |
asked why did you do in enghneering degree in University, it turns out | :36:07. | :36:12. | |
in these individuals by images of space. For me, speaking in what was | :36:13. | :36:24. | |
in opposition debate in indtstry, I thought it was important to talk | :36:25. | :36:27. | |
about the space industry, bdcause the future of this great cotntry is | :36:28. | :36:32. | |
wedded to the importance of science and technology, and it will | :36:33. | :36:37. | |
the space industry inspires, and in the space industry inspires, and in | :36:38. | :36:43. | |
love itself is a great succdss, it means as much support as possible | :36:44. | :36:46. | |
from government of whatever colour. I must say the Labour government of | :36:47. | :36:52. | |
the past did some very good work. Some significant advances in regards | :36:53. | :36:56. | |
to UK space policy under thd previous Labour government. I hope | :36:57. | :36:58. | |
follow suit. Because, as has been and expect that this governlent | :36:59. | :37:04. | |
follow suit. Because, as has been pointed out, when I made my first | :37:05. | :37:08. | |
speech, the estimate of the space industry was 6.8 billion, now we're | :37:09. | :37:14. | |
talking about 11.6. That is in about 5-10 years, to point to an hndustry | :37:15. | :37:19. | |
that has grown has successftlly you will struggle to find one that has | :37:20. | :37:26. | |
finally talking about manned space finally talking about manned space | :37:27. | :37:31. | |
flight, I am vice-chairman of the Parliamentary space committde. I | :37:32. | :37:36. | |
have been pretty much since I came there, posted in my maiden speech. I | :37:37. | :37:40. | |
have pushed back when I talk about the value of manned flight. It is | :37:41. | :37:45. | |
this sense that space is thd robbers, not for Britain. The | :37:46. | :37:49. | |
exploration of space is verx expensive, we have other thhngs to | :37:50. | :37:53. | |
concentrate on. Let's remember the Apollo space programme, for every | :37:54. | :37:58. | |
dollar spent by the US government on that space programme, there was a | :37:59. | :38:03. | |
$13 return. Remarkable return on that investment. Not yet in | :38:04. | :38:10. | |
financial terms. In December 19 8, a famous photograph was taken on | :38:11. | :38:18. | |
Apollo eight by Bill Anders, the value of that photograph cannot be | :38:19. | :38:23. | |
calculated in financial terls. Think about where the environment`l lobby | :38:24. | :38:27. | |
with the in the welcome if ht did not have a photograph of thd picture | :38:28. | :38:34. | |
of the Earth from the moon. Imagine the feeling of those astron`uts | :38:35. | :38:39. | |
putting their hand up, hiding the earth with their fun, our pdrception | :38:40. | :38:45. | |
of this wonderful planet was changed by that investment by the US | :38:46. | :38:49. | |
government. Of course it was driven by a race with the soviet union but | :38:50. | :38:54. | |
the return was not just fin`ncial, we recognise the fragility of this | :38:55. | :39:01. | |
planet. How fortunate we were. I would argue, that in the process of | :39:02. | :39:04. | |
achieving that, placing the first man on the moon in July 1968, man | :39:05. | :39:11. | |
rediscovered the value of exploration. Now we are facdd with | :39:12. | :39:18. | |
the next challenge, to placd a person on the surface of Mars. Maybe | :39:19. | :39:24. | |
it should be a woman. Incre`singly using women in fighter jets, the | :39:25. | :39:30. | |
ability to withstand G forcds. Maybe it is a woman who stands first on | :39:31. | :39:35. | |
Mars. I think Britain should be part of that. The cost of it, it may seem | :39:36. | :39:40. | |
large, but in proportion to the rest large, but in proportion to the rest | :39:41. | :39:46. | |
of what we spend our money on as a nation, and as a world, if we are | :39:47. | :39:52. | |
not about trying to explore space, push back our boundaries of | :39:53. | :39:56. | |
knowledge, discover things we did not know we were going to dhscover | :39:57. | :39:59. | |
in the per test, then what on earth are we about the species? Space is | :40:00. | :40:07. | |
an exciting subject, it is truly inspirational, in a way that I | :40:08. | :40:10. | |
cannot think of another subject that is so inspirational. I think the | :40:11. | :40:13. | |
British government of whatever colour in the future should play a | :40:14. | :40:20. | |
greater part of it, and recognise the government has a role to | :40:21. | :40:23. | |
mitigate the risk, that private investment alone will not bring it | :40:24. | :40:28. | |
about. If we were to do that, this country has a very bright ftture | :40:29. | :40:35. | |
indeed. Thank you Madam Deptty Speaker. This is the first time I | :40:36. | :40:40. | |
have been called without a formal time-limit, I will do my best not to | :40:41. | :40:45. | |
go to infinity and beyond. Can I thank the members of the Hotse who | :40:46. | :40:52. | |
have co-sponsored this notion, and the backbench business commhttee, | :40:53. | :40:56. | |
for giving us the time to h`ve this debate at relatively short notice. | :40:57. | :41:01. | |
At a very opportune moment, as my honourable friend for Centr`l | :41:02. | :41:03. | |
Major Tim Peake mixes spacewalk I Ayrshire has said, the day before | :41:04. | :41:12. | |
Major Tim Peake mixes spacewalk I am stand the likes of the ddbates by | :41:13. | :41:15. | |
the member for Bracknell notwithstanding, this is thd first | :41:16. | :41:18. | |
time the House as a whole h`s considered space policy since 2 05, | :41:19. | :41:24. | |
when there was a debate in Westminster Hall. Very timely | :41:25. | :41:29. | |
indeed. Great to hear the ilportance of today's deliberations ard being | :41:30. | :41:34. | |
Captain Kirk and Mr Sulu hilself. Captain Kirk and Mr Sulu hilself. | :41:35. | :41:41. | |
Our very own Star Trek fan, who normally occupies the spotlhght | :41:42. | :41:45. | |
standing in, sends us his bdst wishes. When it comes the space | :41:46. | :41:51. | |
wishes, there is a line between science fiction and science fact, | :41:52. | :41:55. | |
and vice versa, perhaps I whll come back to that later. Also appropriate | :41:56. | :42:01. | |
to finish this week when thd English laws for English people mandate has | :42:02. | :42:13. | |
discuss the House of Lords. There discuss the House of Lords. | :42:14. | :42:23. | |
are regulations for activithes in outer space to the Parliament of the | :42:24. | :42:27. | |
United Kingdom. If a star m`n waiting in the sky were to read | :42:28. | :42:30. | |
that, he would question whether this Parliament has the power to regulate | :42:31. | :42:34. | |
the infinite majesty of all creation. Although I'm sure there | :42:35. | :42:36. | |
are some members that think it The notes make clear that the | :42:37. | :42:42. | |
reservation specifically applies to matters regulated by the Outer space | :42:43. | :42:49. | |
act, 1996. That act gives effect to a number of international treaties | :42:50. | :42:52. | |
regarding exploration, and for want of a better word, the expectation | :42:53. | :42:57. | |
about as AIDS. The principlds behind those treaties are hugely ilportant, | :42:58. | :43:03. | |
particularly the concept in the 1967 United Nations outer space treaty, | :43:04. | :43:07. | |
the exploration and use of outer space will be carried out for the | :43:08. | :43:11. | |
benefits and interests of all countries, and shall be the province | :43:12. | :43:15. | |
of all mankind. Outer space, including the moon | :43:16. | :43:19. | |
celestial bodies are not subject to national appropriation by claims of | :43:20. | :43:27. | |
sovereignty or any other me`ns. The member for Central Ayrshire spoke | :43:28. | :43:30. | |
powerfully about the role that the development of the Internathonal | :43:31. | :43:32. | |
Space Station played throughout the years of the Cold War, demonstrating | :43:33. | :43:37. | |
global corporation was posshble even at a time of significant political | :43:38. | :43:42. | |
tension. The ISS has been ddscribed as the most complex scientific and | :43:43. | :43:46. | |
engineering project in history. The larger structure humans havd ever | :43:47. | :43:55. | |
clear night, if not by the naked clear night, if | :43:56. | :44:00. | |
eye, through binoculars or ` telescope. The result of | :44:01. | :44:03. | |
collaboration between five different space agencies, representing 15 | :44:04. | :44:08. | |
different countries. Permandntly occupied since the second November | :44:09. | :44:12. | |
2000. Just over 15 years. Rdmarkable achievement. Interesting to hear the | :44:13. | :44:17. | |
minister recommit to these principles of space law, in | :44:18. | :44:24. | |
particular if he could offer recollection to the recent | :44:25. | :44:27. | |
legislation passed in the United States, recognising the right of US | :44:28. | :44:31. | |
have taken from asteroids. @ number have taken | :44:32. | :44:35. | |
of academics and observers have expressed concern, especially if | :44:36. | :44:39. | |
other countries follows seat. The senior lecturer in Internathonal and | :44:40. | :44:43. | |
commission all law at the University of Kent has said the US space act | :44:44. | :44:50. | |
2015 represents a full frontal attack on is space law, and from set | :44:51. | :45:00. | |
-- and presents wild West principles. Space should not be for | :45:01. | :45:03. | |
any expectation excluding anyone for the benefits they can provide. The | :45:04. | :45:08. | |
motion before Rascals the scientific, cultural and | :45:09. | :45:11. | |
technological opportunities. In drafting the motion will be very | :45:12. | :45:14. | |
careful to list those aspects of space declaration and opportunity | :45:15. | :45:18. | |
before we spoke about econolic impact of the space industrx. The UK | :45:19. | :45:23. | |
space trade association itsdlf says the government must ensure hts | :45:24. | :45:27. | |
position then think the bal`nce between economic growth, excellent | :45:28. | :45:30. | |
science and inspiration of xoung people. | :45:31. | :45:47. | |
I was particularly struck bx Nasa using the hashtag, children will | :45:48. | :45:53. | |
never know, when the images were first beam back from Pluto, they | :45:54. | :45:57. | |
will never know a day where they didn't and couldn't see images of | :45:58. | :46:02. | |
Pluto in such great details. Sadly children born today will never know | :46:03. | :46:07. | |
the thrill of the space shuttle who which will certainly inspird me I | :46:08. | :46:12. | |
remember watching the final launch of Atlantis back in 2011 and | :46:13. | :46:16. | |
thinking of all of the diffdrent things going on in the world and I'm | :46:17. | :46:23. | |
happy to give way. Apologies for being a bit of | :46:24. | :46:27. | |
first British-born astronaut to walk in space, was Michael Foale who was | :46:28. | :46:35. | |
on the US space shuttle. I think that is a fair point, I think it is | :46:36. | :46:39. | |
important to recognise a huge achievement, from all of thd | :46:40. | :46:43. | |
different astronauts, and dhfferent heritages from different part of the | :46:44. | :46:47. | |
United Kingdom. I certainly date think there is any intention to play | :46:48. | :46:52. | |
trump. Is it not the case to mention that the gentleman changed his | :46:53. | :46:55. | |
nationality, he had dual nationality, rather than flxing with | :46:56. | :47:04. | |
it on his suit? I think the honourable member for centr`l | :47:05. | :47:06. | |
airshow was right to page of the two Helen Sharman, if they want to look | :47:07. | :47:14. | |
at biographies. The shuttle programme was a huge inspir`tion to | :47:15. | :47:20. | |
many people and a sad loss. I think that we are going | :47:21. | :47:26. | |
have been a number of highs as we have mentioned recently. To hear | :47:27. | :47:31. | |
that there were 15,000 people attending specific launch events, | :47:32. | :47:35. | |
just before Christmas including those of us who were in the Jubilee | :47:36. | :47:42. | |
room and later over in portcullis house, it gives a demonstration of | :47:43. | :47:45. | |
how the International Space Station continues to serve as an | :47:46. | :47:50. | |
inspiration. Many of us who watch the amazing opening ceremonx of the | :47:51. | :47:53. | |
Glasgow Commonwealth Games, will remember that just as we thought it | :47:54. | :47:58. | |
couldn't get any mods are r`ting, a live broadcast from the ISS was | :47:59. | :48:04. | |
beamed down, on Glasgow Gredn, with thousands of other people on that | :48:05. | :48:09. | |
great day celebration. And ` real coming together, exactly thd kind of | :48:10. | :48:13. | |
inspiration that the honour`ble member was talking about. Coming | :48:14. | :48:18. | |
together from all over the world, in sporting endeavour being supported | :48:19. | :48:21. | |
by their fellow human beings thousands of miles above us. It was | :48:22. | :48:26. | |
particularly appropriate th`t they made that appearance becausd | :48:27. | :48:31. | |
have heard, and will continte to hear, there is a significant role | :48:32. | :48:34. | |
that Glasgow and Scotland play in the modern space industry and space | :48:35. | :48:38. | |
science. In December my old university Strathclyde, held the UK | :48:39. | :48:46. | |
colloquium, joined by the Scottish Cabinet Secretary. Delegates visited | :48:47. | :48:53. | |
two of the companies, which specialise in cube satellitds and | :48:54. | :48:59. | |
technology and data. At that event, the First Minister has strongly | :49:00. | :49:02. | |
backed calls that we have hdard and no doubt will continue to hdar, or a | :49:03. | :49:07. | |
spaceport to be located in Scotland and pledging that the Scotthsh | :49:08. | :49:10. | |
Government will do whatever it can to ensure that one of those events | :49:11. | :49:14. | |
is successful. In my own constituency, the Universitx of | :49:15. | :49:19. | |
Glasgow has one of the UK's leading centres for space science. Space | :49:20. | :49:23. | |
Glasgow brings together over 20 academics from a range of | :49:24. | :49:27. | |
disciplines to coordinate rdsearch under the key themes of exploring | :49:28. | :49:30. | |
and under Nanning space, Mission analysis, risks and technology. A | :49:31. | :49:37. | |
particular discovery has bedn helping in the Lisa Pathfinder | :49:38. | :49:42. | |
spacecraft, it marked over ` decade of work from the teams, for the | :49:43. | :49:46. | |
Institute of graduate research, which helped develop a bench, very | :49:47. | :49:54. | |
complex technology. A laser, developed, built and tested by the | :49:55. | :50:01. | |
University. My member is congratulating me on my | :50:02. | :50:08. | |
pronunciation, next to me. Ht is an outstanding scientific achidvement | :50:09. | :50:10. | |
in its own right, and will no doubt inspire generations to come with | :50:11. | :50:13. | |
images and knowledge that the Pathfinder will produce. If my | :50:14. | :50:21. | |
honourable friend could explain to the house what that is? It hs | :50:22. | :50:29. | |
something that measures Picos. LAUGHTER | :50:30. | :50:35. | |
But I have heard resurgent space science and technology, likd any | :50:36. | :50:40. | |
academic discipline costs money and require certainty. I would be happy | :50:41. | :50:45. | |
to back calls from the rese`rch for a greater transparency in the | :50:46. | :50:49. | |
relationship between the UK space agency and the research council with | :50:50. | :50:52. | |
regard to funding decisions and it would be useful to hear frol the | :50:53. | :50:57. | |
Minister on how the governmdnt is actively engaging with thesd | :50:58. | :51:02. | |
cutting edge of this import`nt technology. Much of this technology | :51:03. | :51:06. | |
has an impact on our day-to,day lives especially in the West, we | :51:07. | :51:11. | |
rely on satellite technologx for everything from weather fordcasting | :51:12. | :51:15. | |
to mobile phones, but we have also spoken about the inspiration space | :51:16. | :51:19. | |
exploration can provide. It is important that governments hn the UK | :51:20. | :51:23. | |
and Scotland continued to stpport science and technological education | :51:24. | :51:24. | |
as well as initiatives such as dark technology industries we must also | :51:25. | :51:35. | |
remain vigilant, about the risks of space debris. Too many of otr oceans | :51:36. | :51:39. | |
and geological economic systems are poisoned with the un-thinking | :51:40. | :51:44. | |
results of technological process and the same must not be allowed to | :51:45. | :51:49. | |
happen in nearby or outer space Indeed those of us on social media | :51:50. | :51:51. | |
would have seen a bit of media activity, about Nasa | :51:52. | :51:59. | |
recruiting a planned three defence officer, that is not as outlandish | :52:00. | :52:05. | |
as that might sound. It is not simply a risk of asteroids, I know | :52:06. | :52:09. | |
previous members no longer with us used to champion these issuds in the | :52:10. | :52:14. | |
house. Nearer objects, if they are not properly managed, like | :52:15. | :52:18. | |
satellites, there is a risk of them crashing into population centres. | :52:19. | :52:24. | |
Does the honourable member know that there is a piece of British | :52:25. | :52:27. | |
technology that is being developed that can be booked into space to | :52:28. | :52:31. | |
capture space debris and brhng it back to Earth? That | :52:32. | :52:38. | |
helpful contribution, and I think that it demonstrates again, the | :52:39. | :52:41. | |
point that we are making about the importance of the space indtstry not | :52:42. | :52:45. | |
just to the economy, but to the greater collective good. I spoke of | :52:46. | :52:51. | |
the relationship between schence fiction and science fact, N`sa has | :52:52. | :52:54. | |
collaborated successfully in the production of the movie, thd Martian | :52:55. | :52:56. | |
about a man stranded on the but it is based on a very rdalistic | :52:57. | :53:02. | |
understanding of the technologies of signs that would be involved on a | :53:03. | :53:05. | |
mission to the red planet. Hn the very little free time that H have | :53:06. | :53:10. | |
had over the last 18 months, reading through the Mars trilogy, which is | :53:11. | :53:15. | |
rightly described as a future history. Written in the 1990s with | :53:16. | :53:20. | |
tremendous foresight and forensically researched, after | :53:21. | :53:22. | |
reading it for several hours you could walk out and look at the | :53:23. | :53:30. | |
window and expecting martian landscape. It is also well written | :53:31. | :53:33. | |
study, of the possibilities open to mankind, starting to build `n | :53:34. | :53:37. | |
economy and politics from scratch. There is so much to commend and | :53:38. | :53:42. | |
learn from from how science fiction authors have used space exploration | :53:43. | :53:45. | |
to reflect on our current e`rthbound conditions. This is a very valuable | :53:46. | :53:50. | |
opportunity for debate and H look forward to hearing further | :53:51. | :53:53. | |
contributions from members `nd response from the Minister, | :53:54. | :53:55. | |
ensuring the neutrality and common particularly on the questions | :53:56. | :54:00. | |
ensuring the neutrality and common access, support for education and | :54:01. | :54:03. | |
science, the preservation of dark skies and the minimisation of space | :54:04. | :54:07. | |
debris. We talked about nationalities and laying cl`im, I | :54:08. | :54:09. | |
think Scotland lays claim to one astronaut so far, Brian Binney who | :54:10. | :54:14. | |
was brought up in Aberdeen `nd Stirling and has test pilotdd a | :54:15. | :54:18. | |
number of space flights, let us hope that the inspiration from the many | :54:19. | :54:23. | |
and growing space missions, willing courage more young people to pursue | :54:24. | :54:25. | |
careers in long we will see more astronauts | :54:26. | :54:31. | |
from Scotland and indeed across the UK, contributing to the comlon good | :54:32. | :54:35. | |
of humanity and having the opportunity to explore strange new | :54:36. | :54:39. | |
worlds. And if Hansard allows split infinitive is, to boldly go where no | :54:40. | :54:48. | |
one has gone before. Thank xou very much Madam Deputy Speaker, H will | :54:49. | :54:53. | |
put the case for Cornwall today We have heard a lot about Scotland and | :54:54. | :54:59. | |
we did hear references to Ndwquay in the opening speech. So I just want | :55:00. | :55:07. | |
to put on record and make mdmbers aware that Cornwall is alre`dy the | :55:08. | :55:12. | |
home of the error club. Newpuay has a runway, that can take the very | :55:13. | :55:18. | |
fastest and the largest civhlian and military planes. Formerly the home | :55:19. | :55:26. | |
of RAF St Albans, new key is in an ideal location, for the new space | :55:27. | :55:35. | |
hub. We have also in the wider area of Cornwall, got a lot of knowledge, | :55:36. | :55:44. | |
and history, relating to sp`ce. We had the first dish, antenna one | :55:45. | :55:52. | |
nicknamed Arthur, operating in 962, to link with Telstar. Which led the | :55:53. | :56:06. | |
way in UK communications. In my own constituency, I have got thd Caledon | :56:07. | :56:13. | |
Observatory. Ken and Muriel Bennett funded it themselves, and it is an | :56:14. | :56:18. | |
ideal location, or take fantastic photographs which are published in | :56:19. | :56:25. | |
skies on Bodmin Moor. I didn't skies on Bodmin Moor. | :56:26. | :56:30. | |
intend to make a contribution today Madam Deputy Speaker, but I did feel | :56:31. | :56:36. | |
that I should point out that Cornwall has an extremely good case, | :56:37. | :56:42. | |
it is one of eight locations, that is being considered. And I just | :56:43. | :56:47. | |
felt, that I wanted to make the case as a Cornish member of Parlhament to | :56:48. | :56:51. | |
say, that we are still therd. This bid would actually be reallx good | :56:52. | :56:58. | |
for Newquay, but not only that, it would be absolutely superb for the | :56:59. | :57:03. | |
county that I call home. Th`nk you very much Madam Deputy Speaker. Jim | :57:04. | :57:12. | |
Shannon. It is a pleasure to speak on this, and it is always a pleasure | :57:13. | :57:19. | |
to hear the honourable lady for Central Ayrshire, and I look very | :57:20. | :57:21. | |
much forward, to hearing her on health issues which she brings up, a | :57:22. | :57:27. | |
wealth of knowledge to this house, and her contributions are always | :57:28. | :57:31. | |
very much worth listening to. We can always learn from them, that is why | :57:32. | :57:35. | |
I always enjoy them, I want to say thank you very much. I have found | :57:36. | :57:39. | |
out today that the noise gods beyond health issues, it goes into space | :57:40. | :57:43. | |
policy and where man has never gone before. But nonetheless herd we are, | :57:44. | :57:51. | |
Minister in his place. I can is always rain | :57:52. | :57:55. | |
Minister in his place. I can honestly say without fear of | :57:56. | :57:59. | |
contradiction, that if the Linister is on the house, I will be on the | :58:00. | :58:04. | |
other side, vice versa whendver the occasion arises. | :58:05. | :58:12. | |
It is good to look at this often overlooked issue. This issud is not | :58:13. | :58:19. | |
absolutely pertinent to Northern Ireland at the moment but I would | :58:20. | :58:23. | |
like to make sure the province is part of strategy on the space sector | :58:24. | :58:26. | |
going forward and that is why I want to contribute and put a marker down | :58:27. | :58:33. | |
and make it clear we can be a part of, we have one of the youngest | :58:34. | :58:36. | |
forces in the United Kingdol of Great Britain and Northern Hreland | :58:37. | :58:41. | |
and the Minister knows that. We have well educated people with hhgh skill | :58:42. | :58:42. | |
set which could benefit frol jobs in this sector. I think it could | :58:43. | :58:47. | |
address the brain drain affdcting Northern Ireland, and we nedd to get | :58:48. | :58:54. | |
to grips with it. Maybe the Minister can tell us how the space policy can | :58:55. | :58:59. | |
interact with Northern Irel`nd and how we can get some of the benefit | :59:00. | :59:04. | |
and how we can be part of that in educating Great Britain and Northern | :59:05. | :59:06. | |
Ireland, Better Together, as the minister would say. It is good to | :59:07. | :59:10. | |
see us united in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern | :59:11. | :59:17. | |
Ireland. I am happy to give way He will be aware of stories mentioning | :59:18. | :59:23. | |
Stornoway as a great place `nd it was mentioned before as well. It is | :59:24. | :59:28. | |
a fantastic place, Mullen hdad, near Northern Ireland, for space | :59:29. | :59:33. | |
adventures. He was waxing about black puddings! It is always good to | :59:34. | :59:42. | |
have a response from a friend. In making sure it has a place hn | :59:43. | :59:46. | |
Northern Ireland, the space sector, it will go some way to addrdssing | :59:47. | :59:49. | |
the brain drain issue of too many young people. I would like to hear | :59:50. | :59:55. | |
from the Minister how we can connect with Northern Ireland better in this | :59:56. | :59:59. | |
policy. We have a proud history in Northern Ireland in relation to | :00:00. | :00:05. | |
maybe not to space policy dhrectly but certainly air flight. Hdnry | :00:06. | :00:09. | |
George, better known as Harry Ferguson, an Orangemen, was noted | :00:10. | :00:16. | |
for his role in the sector `nd was the first Ulster man, the fhrst | :00:17. | :00:20. | |
Irish man to build and fly his own aeroplane. The first airport in | :00:21. | :00:26. | |
Northern Ireland was in my constituency, built in about 19 0. | :00:27. | :00:28. | |
Again we have a fantastic and the bombard ear has been | :00:29. | :00:36. | |
established for many years `nd I think there is a role for that | :00:37. | :00:43. | |
aircraft company to play in space policy and development. Thex should | :00:44. | :00:47. | |
be a part of it and I wish to see it happening. This sector is | :00:48. | :00:50. | |
fundamental to the future economy as a whole. I welcome the strategy as a | :00:51. | :00:56. | |
goal of having be space sector contributing some 40 billion a year | :00:57. | :01:03. | |
to the UK economy by 2030. H think the point I tried to make in my | :01:04. | :01:07. | |
opening is that at the moment this is talking about UK spaceports, and | :01:08. | :01:12. | |
I think there will be different set those. One sector which will come in | :01:13. | :01:18. | |
the not too distant future will be hyperbolic suborbital flight. When | :01:19. | :01:22. | |
we get past the Virgin Galactic plane and rocket, we will actually | :01:23. | :01:27. | |
have a combination of jet and rocket engines which will go from | :01:28. | :01:32. | |
standstill to orbiting and back down. We could fly to Japan in a | :01:33. | :01:37. | |
short period of time. Different sites around the UK might h`ve | :01:38. | :01:40. | |
totally different routes and should be enabled and not locked. H thank | :01:41. | :01:45. | |
her for that significant and important intervention. It sets the | :01:46. | :01:50. | |
vision we should all have in this House for the way forward. H think | :01:51. | :01:56. | |
there are no barriers to wh`t we can do when it comes to this. Some of | :01:57. | :01:58. | |
the things in Star Trek, thdy are not possible, are they? I look | :01:59. | :02:03. | |
forward to that moment. I look forward to the developer and when we | :02:04. | :02:07. | |
can travel from a to Z, Belfast to Heathrow in seconds. If that is ever | :02:08. | :02:13. | |
possible we can be here and back a couple of times and do business at | :02:14. | :02:17. | |
home and here in the same hour. Is it possible? We hope it may happen. | :02:18. | :02:27. | |
been discovered, I am mindftl of the been discovered, I am mindftl of | :02:28. | :02:34. | |
first time and stepped on the Moon, one small step for man and one giant | :02:35. | :02:38. | |
leap for mankind. What that did for me and I think many others, it cast, | :02:39. | :02:46. | |
given the immensity and sizd of the universe that God created, `nd also | :02:47. | :02:52. | |
for me and I think for many others, it focused upon the fact th`t with | :02:53. | :03:01. | |
God 's power he is in total control of the universe. The historhcal one | :03:02. | :03:08. | |
small step for man and one giant leap for mankind, | :03:09. | :03:13. | |
taken from the Isle of Man ` number of years ago, those in the hndustry | :03:14. | :03:15. | |
said only the United States, Russia, China, India, rise above thd Isle of | :03:16. | :03:21. | |
Man for getting the next person onto the moon. It goes to show that if | :03:22. | :03:24. | |
the will is there you can achieve often quite a long. I thank him for | :03:25. | :03:31. | |
his intervention. I believe in what he want to achieve and that goal is | :03:32. | :03:36. | |
achievable if you want to m`ke it happen. The deregulation is a good | :03:37. | :03:41. | |
developed which will encour`ge the UK to be more competitive in the | :03:42. | :03:45. | |
future industry. I think it is important to make sure we are world | :03:46. | :03:48. | |
leaders in terms of offering somewhere for the industry to do | :03:49. | :03:52. | |
business. We will be part of it across the United Kingdom of Great | :03:53. | :03:55. | |
Britain and Northern Ireland. The space intervention strategy was a | :03:56. | :04:00. | |
welcome the moment with a partnership between industrx, | :04:01. | :04:04. | |
government and academia, growing at making use of sp`ce | :04:05. | :04:07. | |
related opportunities. This debate is so important, because of the | :04:08. | :04:13. | |
possibilities. I think we are all excited by the possibilities of what | :04:14. | :04:18. | |
can be achieved. While therd are incurred in developers in the last | :04:19. | :04:21. | |
palm and it is disappointing, I have to say, that it is not menthoned in | :04:22. | :04:27. | |
the manifesto of 2016 -- 2005, but I am sure the | :04:28. | :04:31. | |
that and put it clearly to the debate with and policy and strategy. | :04:32. | :04:37. | |
I hope it is not a sign of taking eyes off the ball. The new | :04:38. | :04:42. | |
regulatory framework enabled by the Bill will allow to create space | :04:43. | :04:46. | |
commercial spaceport in the UK by 2018. Again, a marvellous vhsion of | :04:47. | :04:52. | |
what can happen for the futtre. It is a welcome developed Tom | :04:53. | :04:56. | |
commercial space travel is hn industry where we can liter`lly | :04:57. | :04:59. | |
reach for the stars and touch the moon. It is a marvellous light, | :05:00. | :05:05. | |
James Stewart, lassoing the moon, but we are going to reach the moon | :05:06. | :05:09. | |
and go beyond it and there hs the possibility of doing that as well. | :05:10. | :05:13. | |
The value of the space sector in the UK has gone from six billion in | :05:14. | :05:20. | |
2007, 211.8 in 2014. It has almost doubled and the potential to double | :05:21. | :05:25. | |
again is here. It will rekindle interest in the | :05:26. | :05:29. | |
trend will offer commercial space travel and it will make us world | :05:30. | :05:36. | |
leaders in the industry. I do not know if the member remembers, but he | :05:37. | :05:41. | |
was one of the few members that attended my German debate on | :05:42. | :05:47. | |
microgravity. Before that I was contacted primarily from Amdrica on | :05:48. | :05:50. | |
the subject. They pointed ott it was doing and other companies, the | :05:51. | :05:56. | |
research area, it had up to $10 billion potential industry growth | :05:57. | :06:02. | |
there. I think the member is right to point out the potential for the | :06:03. | :06:07. | |
future in the industry. I do remember that. It was one of those | :06:08. | :06:12. | |
debates I am known to attend at the odd time. I can remember and | :06:13. | :06:16. | |
intervention along those lines. About two, four years ago is. I | :06:17. | :06:21. | |
quite enjoyed, it was quite positive, | :06:22. | :06:29. | |
Sunday with the radio contact with school and young people. Thd | :06:30. | :06:33. | |
inspiration it gave young pdople was fantastic and the fact it h`ppened | :06:34. | :06:37. | |
was fantastic. The young people were inspired and they have that | :06:38. | :06:41. | |
photograph on the TV show on the schools, and I know it was ` bit | :06:42. | :06:45. | |
rehearsed, but it was excithng for us to watch and how much more | :06:46. | :06:49. | |
exciting for the children to have that ambition and inspirational | :06:50. | :06:53. | |
drive to try and be the next Tim Peake in space? Mail, or felale as | :06:54. | :07:02. | |
it will be. As we look to obtain secure jobs for the future, we need | :07:03. | :07:06. | |
more of these elements and ht is a welcome opportunity to contribute to | :07:07. | :07:08. | |
a debate on this issue of great importance to the future of our | :07:09. | :07:15. | |
country and the economy as well In conclusion, the new National space | :07:16. | :07:20. | |
policy, the deregulation Bill and space innovation growth str`tegy are | :07:21. | :07:24. | |
all signs we are heading in the right direction on this isste. I | :07:25. | :07:27. | |
think the positivity coming through this debates today will be noted not | :07:28. | :07:31. | |
just in this chamber but in the membership and outside and further | :07:32. | :07:33. | |
afield. We can play our part in space travel and space policy moving | :07:34. | :07:43. | |
forward. I hope from the back of this debate we can obtain momentum | :07:44. | :07:47. | |
and make sure these plans, ` real developed -- delivery for the United | :07:48. | :07:52. | |
Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, Better Together, | :07:53. | :07:55. | |
space industry and the future of the economy. Thank you. First, H would | :07:56. | :08:04. | |
like to thank my honourable friends, the members for Central Ayrshire and | :08:05. | :08:10. | |
Glasgow for securing this ddbate. Tim Peake's six hour adventtre | :08:11. | :08:12. | |
tomorrow as part of a team, I tomorrow as part of a team, I | :08:13. | :08:17. | |
understand, it will replace a solar power connection unit in sp`ce and | :08:18. | :08:21. | |
will be watched in awe by m`ny children. A cliche has been used | :08:22. | :08:28. | |
before but it was in that p`ragraph! His iconic voyage in space, living | :08:29. | :08:32. | |
and working on the Internathonal Space Station has beamed into our | :08:33. | :08:38. | |
lives. Tweet by tweet, years paid tribute to the star man and he has | :08:39. | :08:44. | |
sent extraordinary aerial vhews on the planet and space suit sdlls | :08:45. | :08:49. | |
these. You get a feeling of life on the space station and iconic visions | :08:50. | :08:55. | |
and views. He raises aspirations to the Fathers frontiers and wd should | :08:56. | :08:58. | |
make the most of the chance to spark the interest of young peopld in | :08:59. | :09:03. | |
careers the future. The spirit in which this is presented is to be | :09:04. | :09:07. | |
much appreciated. There is ` sense that there is potential, maxbe not | :09:08. | :09:12. | |
just for a single port site but potential for a number of areas a | :09:13. | :09:18. | |
number of sites in the UK. Ht is of course the case that those lembers | :09:19. | :09:21. | |
with vested local interests in a possible space port site will | :09:22. | :09:25. | |
inevitably take the opportunity to set out individual stalls. Ht is our | :09:26. | :09:31. | |
representative responsibility. But to make sure this fantastic | :09:32. | :09:36. | |
opportunity arising from thd UK spaceport develop and, it mtst | :09:37. | :09:43. | |
benefit the UK as a whole. With that semi-apology I must turn to the | :09:44. | :09:47. | |
possible space port site at a former RAF site. It is a coastal location | :09:48. | :09:53. | |
surrounded by sand between Cardigan Bay and the hinterland of Snowdonia. | :09:54. | :09:58. | |
It has a track record of airspace management and operations. Ht | :09:59. | :10:04. | |
comprises three main runways, the loggers the witches orientated in a | :10:05. | :10:07. | |
way that flights pass over sparsely populated areas. Unique frol all the | :10:08. | :10:14. | |
candidate sites, it already has access to 2000 square miles of | :10:15. | :10:18. | |
segregated airspace over Cardigan Bay. It was bought by the Wdlsh | :10:19. | :10:25. | |
government in 2004 as a str`tegic asset. Since 2008 it has bedn leased | :10:26. | :10:27. | |
by the airfield estate on a long-term lease. It has been mostly | :10:28. | :10:33. | |
used for developing remotelx piloted air systems and on manned adrial | :10:34. | :10:38. | |
vehicles, often known as drones The most recent initiative relates to | :10:39. | :10:43. | |
drones for protecting fisheries The site included in the enterprise | :10:44. | :10:48. | |
zone, facilitating improvemdnts including 1.5 million spent to | :10:49. | :10:53. | |
upgrade infrastructure, the Civil Aviation Authority has rightly | :10:54. | :10:54. | |
identified safety operation principle for the | :10:55. | :11:00. | |
spaceport. It of course applies not just to members of the publhc and | :11:01. | :11:05. | |
workers using it, but also to the uninvolved public. It implids the | :11:06. | :11:10. | |
combination of relative isolation, coastal location and segreg`ted | :11:11. | :11:14. | |
airspace satisfies these requirements as fully as possible. | :11:15. | :11:19. | |
It is safe to say and others have made the case already, the dconomic | :11:20. | :11:23. | |
potential for a space walk built in this immediate locality and further | :11:24. | :11:29. | |
afield is immense. It is to a great degree dependent on | :11:30. | :11:34. | |
employment and the leisure hndustry. This constituency suffers from | :11:35. | :11:37. | |
seasonal and minimum wage employment. Although offici`l | :11:38. | :11:41. | |
figures are low for unemploxment, chronic inactivity is a real issue. | :11:42. | :11:46. | |
The demographic of the area indicates an ageing populathon as | :11:47. | :11:50. | |
young people move away for higher education and employment. This is | :11:51. | :11:53. | |
the price we pay for dependdncy on the seasonal tourism industry, a | :11:54. | :11:58. | |
shrinking public sector and scanned government investment in employment. | :11:59. | :12:05. | |
-- limited. It is not just ` local investment in a far western corner | :12:06. | :12:08. | |
of the United Kingdom. It h`s the potential to benefit all of North | :12:09. | :12:13. | |
Wales with the educational powerhouses in Bangor, Wrexham, and | :12:14. | :12:20. | |
elsewhere. It goes much further than bad. The Northern Powerhousd would | :12:21. | :12:25. | |
have visited element in easx reach. -- than this. It rivals the heart of | :12:26. | :12:32. | |
Manchester, Liverpool, Birmhngham and London and is the closest | :12:33. | :12:35. | |
candidate sites to the spacd Gateway in Oxford. It has the potential to | :12:36. | :12:42. | |
make a real difference to the area and the wider area as a whole. But | :12:43. | :12:46. | |
we are still waiting for thd governance to bring us out of the | :12:47. | :12:50. | |
limbo of expectation by providing the operational criteria for the UK | :12:51. | :12:56. | |
spaceport. It is not possible to move ahead, as we do not yet know | :12:57. | :13:00. | |
what we are hitting four. It is to quantify in terms of jobs, locally | :13:01. | :13:12. | |
and further afield. -- biddhng for. It impacts locally. Caravan site in | :13:13. | :13:15. | |
the area say customers are reluctant to commit to new contracts tnless a | :13:16. | :13:20. | |
decision is made for the future one way or another. | :13:21. | :13:28. | |
He happens to live in the ndxt village as well. On the one hand he | :13:29. | :13:36. | |
tells me, his fellow students, his friends think that this is ` cloud | :13:37. | :13:40. | |
cuckoo project, each will ndver happen. How could it ever h`ppen | :13:41. | :13:47. | |
there? Then you could see the flash of hope and realisation, th`t it | :13:48. | :13:51. | |
could happen here. And they could be part of it. Like Buzz Lightxear we | :13:52. | :13:59. | |
can turn falling with style into infinity and beyond. Thank xou | :14:00. | :14:08. | |
Deputy Speaker, it is an honour to Deputy Speaker, it | :14:09. | :14:17. | |
debate, I congratulate it bding cheery at it. I have to say Madam | :14:18. | :14:23. | |
Deputy Speaker, there has bden far too many references to Star Trek | :14:24. | :14:26. | |
instead of Star Wars so let me even it up a bit. Space policy is not | :14:27. | :14:30. | |
being debated as much as it should have been given how much it is, but | :14:31. | :14:35. | |
I'm pleased that as a result of the tenacious attitude of the mdmbers | :14:36. | :14:38. | |
for Central Ayrshire and Gl`sgow North, I think the force has | :14:39. | :14:45. | |
awakened. As has already bedn mentioned and quite rightly so, Tim | :14:46. | :14:47. | |
Peake's mission on achievement and I think the whole | :14:48. | :14:54. | |
house and the whole country wishes him well as he's about to elbark on | :14:55. | :14:59. | |
his space walk tomorrow. I would suggest that his mission is | :15:00. | :15:03. | |
important for a number of rdasons. First he is undertaking expdriments | :15:04. | :15:08. | |
and research which will havd positive applications back on Earth, | :15:09. | :15:10. | |
a point to which I will hopdfully a point to which | :15:11. | :15:14. | |
return in a moment. Secondlx, as has already been mentioned, his space | :15:15. | :15:19. | |
mission undoubtedly inspires and motivates a whole new gener`tion, | :15:20. | :15:25. | |
rather like the previous generation was inspired by the Apollo | :15:26. | :15:30. | |
programme. I remember, the words by President Kennedy which I think so | :15:31. | :15:36. | |
the moon and do the other things. Not because it is easy, but because | :15:37. | :15:42. | |
it is hard. That inspiration and ambition I think is incredibly | :15:43. | :15:45. | |
important. Those young people looking at what Tim Peake is doing, | :15:46. | :15:53. | |
and perhaps even interacting with him as he is conducting | :15:54. | :15:59. | |
experiments, will have thosd eyes open as to the enormous perhaps | :16:00. | :16:02. | |
unlimited potential available to them in their lives and carders | :16:03. | :16:05. | |
Those young people might not necessarily want to become | :16:06. | :16:09. | |
astronauts, I still have a wish to be an astronaut. As does evdryone in | :16:10. | :16:15. | |
this debate. But they will see the dizzying potential, the scope for | :16:16. | :16:18. | |
signs and technology and engineering. I hope that actually | :16:19. | :16:20. | |
Tim peat's going to last for decades bdcause | :16:21. | :16:26. | |
young people will be inspirdd by seeing him, and who go on to have an | :16:27. | :16:31. | |
impact with science technology and research throughout the | :16:32. | :16:34. | |
21st-century. At the third reason why his mission is so important in | :16:35. | :16:40. | |
terms of how important it showcases the true British industrial success, | :16:41. | :16:45. | |
that of the UK space industry. That is ready what I want to focts on in | :16:46. | :16:48. | |
my contribution. Most peopld walking the streets today will not be aware | :16:49. | :16:53. | |
that Britain has a space sector People I think the honourable member | :16:54. | :16:59. | |
for Central Ayrshire, they will thinking member of Nash or possibly | :17:00. | :17:06. | |
Russia, and they will think of it as putting people regularly into space, | :17:07. | :17:10. | |
or perhaps seeing missions such as new Horizons, the exploration of | :17:11. | :17:11. | |
Pluto. Major Peake's journey does dnable us | :17:12. | :17:23. | |
to highlight success, and also to see this sector grow. I would say to | :17:24. | :17:27. | |
the minister who I think will agree with me on this, UK space is the | :17:28. | :17:34. | |
very model of what a modern and successful sector Britain should be | :17:35. | :17:38. | |
focused on. Inoperative, high-value, providing well-paid and highly | :17:39. | :17:42. | |
rewarding careers. It taps hnto Britain's strengths based on the | :17:43. | :17:45. | |
very best science, engineerhng and world-class British research, with a | :17:46. | :17:53. | |
very clear nod to British excellence, such as legal, financial | :17:54. | :17:56. | |
and regulatory work. It is rapidly growing throughout the world, | :17:57. | :18:00. | |
meaning that the British colparative advantage should be used to capture | :18:01. | :18:04. | |
even more wealth and value for this country in the future. We h`d been | :18:05. | :18:06. | |
quite canny in this country in quite canny in this country in | :18:07. | :18:12. | |
identifying precisely where in the space sector, and throughout its | :18:13. | :18:15. | |
value chain, Britain excels. We have skills it is truly an upstrdam | :18:16. | :18:19. | |
activities, such as satellite construction. I have been to have | :18:20. | :18:23. | |
bus in Stevenage and I have seen the great work that goes on, I have seen | :18:24. | :18:27. | |
satellite is being built, I have also walked on the surface of Mars | :18:28. | :18:34. | |
which is absolutely fantasthc. But our real strength and potential lie | :18:35. | :18:37. | |
in the industry's downstreal activities such as use equipment, | :18:38. | :18:42. | |
services and data and as I lentioned already, our strengths in | :18:43. | :18:46. | |
professional services such `s legal, regulatory and financial, allows | :18:47. | :18:50. | |
Britain to lead the world in raising capital, as well as the expdrtise | :18:51. | :18:51. | |
for example to provide licensing activities which increase in demand | :18:52. | :19:00. | |
in the future and so Britain is well placed for future growth. The | :19:01. | :19:05. | |
honourable member for Centr`l Ayrshire and swear do mention these | :19:06. | :19:09. | |
figures but I think it is ilportant to reiterate how successful the UK | :19:10. | :19:13. | |
space sector has been in recent years, it generates almost ?12 | :19:14. | :19:20. | |
billion for the UK economy, almost double the value of 2007, the | :19:21. | :19:25. | |
industry directly employs 37,00 people in this country but ht rises | :19:26. | :19:30. | |
to 115,000, and one considers the supply chain. UK space as the annual | :19:31. | :19:41. | |
growth rate of 8.6% since 2008- 009, I think you were in the chahr when | :19:42. | :19:43. | |
we were discussing yesterdax the structural weaknesses in our | :19:44. | :19:50. | |
productivity and trade positions, in the debate brought forward by the | :19:51. | :19:54. | |
SNP. Frankly if all other sdctors were performing at the same rate as | :19:55. | :19:59. | |
the UK space industry, this country would be doing well. Productivity is | :20:00. | :20:02. | |
three times the national avdrage, with a value added of ?140,000 per | :20:03. | :20:10. | |
employee. Exports are twice the national average, representhng about | :20:11. | :20:12. | |
a third of the turnover. Thhs success bodes well for the future | :20:13. | :20:16. | |
and the global space industry is set to grow even further to abott ? 00 | :20:17. | :20:22. | |
billion by 2030. The UK space sector's ambitions are challenging | :20:23. | :20:27. | |
but achievable, the National space policy objectives, Britain has a 10% | :20:28. | :20:33. | |
market share, dividing ?40 billion of value to the British economy and | :20:34. | :20:37. | |
employing an additional 100,000 workers by 2030. I hope mad`m Deputy | :20:38. | :20:42. | |
Speaker that there is real consensus, regardless of party | :20:43. | :20:46. | |
affiliation for this ambition, backing the government on this, | :20:47. | :20:51. | |
building on the back of previous support, regardless, to Paul Grayson | :20:52. | :20:58. | |
who launched much of the prdsent interest in UK space, for the UK | :20:59. | :21:02. | |
Government. To be fair David Willetts continued that polhcy in an | :21:03. | :21:08. | |
excellent weight throughout the Coalition Government, providing all | :21:09. | :21:10. | |
important policy continuity and certainty that transcended | :21:11. | :21:12. | |
parliament, that allowed confidence to grow and gave potential | :21:13. | :21:18. | |
investments, insurance, providing much of the successful Brithsh | :21:19. | :21:20. | |
space. characteristics of the UK space | :21:21. | :21:27. | |
sector, it high-value, in normative, productive, export focus, | :21:28. | :21:31. | |
identifying key strengths whthin the sector, building the compar`tive | :21:32. | :21:34. | |
advantage, securing more global market share. It is assisted by | :21:35. | :21:38. | |
strong and long-standing partnerships between industry, | :21:39. | :21:41. | |
government and research, I had to say I do | :21:42. | :21:46. | |
present government does not want to shout more about the virtues of an | :21:47. | :21:49. | |
industrial strategy, becausd I think that for the successes of the UK | :21:50. | :21:53. | |
space industry, an industri`l strategy is being part of that | :21:54. | :21:57. | |
success. The secretary of State seems to have abandoned such | :21:58. | :22:01. | |
aspirations with the possible exceptions of the aerospace and | :22:02. | :22:05. | |
automotive industries. That seems wrong and potentially means that | :22:06. | :22:09. | |
other productive sectors, and I m pleased that the Minister on the | :22:10. | :22:12. | |
Treasury benches actually the Minister for life sciences, because | :22:13. | :22:17. | |
I would single out life scidnces as another great skill, it is ` | :22:18. | :22:20. | |
marvellous sector. Why is in that last as a strategic important sector | :22:21. | :22:31. | |
to? In the Autumn Statement, the Chancellor announced a move away | :22:32. | :22:33. | |
from grants to loans with the exception of the aerospace `nd | :22:34. | :22:36. | |
automotive sectors. This dods run the risk, of investment not being | :22:37. | :22:43. | |
attracted to Britain. For stch a successful and promising sector has | :22:44. | :22:48. | |
space, this is worrying. Wotld the Minister consider expanding the | :22:49. | :22:51. | |
definition of the aerospace sector to include space, so that sdctor can | :22:52. | :22:55. | |
take advantage of the securhty of research funding. It is verx | :22:56. | :23:05. | |
important when we are taking steps forward, can I suggest to the | :23:06. | :23:08. | |
honourable gentleman, universities in that, opportunities at that | :23:09. | :23:13. | |
level, to use expertise and knowledge, so partnership whth | :23:14. | :23:22. | |
universities as well? I think that is incredibly important, I think the | :23:23. | :23:25. | |
unique blend that Britain h`s in terms of the strong leadership it | :23:26. | :23:29. | |
has provided, that partnership between industry and governlent | :23:30. | :23:34. | |
through the UK space agency. But also, the world-class expertise in | :23:35. | :23:35. | |
research that we do have as part the university base means that we | :23:36. | :23:42. | |
are well-positioned, to capture as much market value as possible. I was | :23:43. | :23:48. | |
talking of some of the asks, will he also accept and I think he will | :23:49. | :23:52. | |
believe this, that industri`l strategy works. Will he comlit to | :23:53. | :23:55. | |
ensuring that this sort of `pproach is embraced by the government, solar | :23:56. | :23:58. | |
sectors such as space and lhfe scientists are exploited for the | :23:59. | :24:04. | |
benefit of Britain. I mentioned earlier that the National space | :24:05. | :24:08. | |
policy set out the ambition for 100,000 additional jobs in the space | :24:09. | :24:12. | |
industry in the next 15 years, I think we would all want to sign up | :24:13. | :24:16. | |
to that but given the skill shortages in engineering and science | :24:17. | :24:20. | |
-based instantly, with the difficulty of attracting girls, and | :24:21. | :24:26. | |
young women to consider stels into college and university and then has | :24:27. | :24:31. | |
a career, what is the Minister doing to ensure that this barrier to | :24:32. | :24:33. | |
potential growth in UK spacd is addressed? What further asshstance | :24:34. | :24:39. | |
in terms of outreach activities and apprenticeship opportunities will be | :24:40. | :24:43. | |
provided to ensure that we can motivate and inspire girls `nd young | :24:44. | :24:46. | |
women to think about a caredr in space. I want to finish on criticism | :24:47. | :24:55. | |
of the space industry, it is often said in these times, that interest | :24:56. | :24:58. | |
and investment in space is somehow a luxurious body. We | :24:59. | :25:06. | |
simply cannot afford a big hndustry any more, why are recently hn man | :25:07. | :25:12. | |
into space when patients ard lying in hospital corridors? I thhnk this | :25:13. | :25:13. | |
is a false argument, to a v`st is a false argument, to a v`st | :25:14. | :25:19. | |
extent the UK space industrx is driven by private sector investment, | :25:20. | :25:22. | |
with something like governmdnt investment averaging over the past | :25:23. | :25:30. | |
15 years, a ratio of 4.015%, the value created by this industry grows | :25:31. | :25:33. | |
the economy and increases t`x revenues thereby helping to fund | :25:34. | :25:43. | |
public services. Research c`rried out in the space industry h`s | :25:44. | :25:48. | |
positive implications, whether it is satellite technology, food crops, | :25:49. | :25:50. | |
they can react. And Major Pdake experiments into materials `nd how | :25:51. | :25:56. | |
himself while on the Intern`tional Space Station was carrying out | :25:57. | :25:59. | |
experiments to measure pressure in the brain which will give ilportant | :26:00. | :26:03. | |
future applications in serious trauma. So investment in sp`ce | :26:04. | :26:07. | |
results in tangible benefits for society. It is not just that cost | :26:08. | :26:15. | |
benefit analysis, I was strtck by the Commons, by the honourable | :26:16. | :26:18. | |
member, industry is important. The bottom line is | :26:19. | :26:23. | |
the honourable gentleman sahd, there is something fundamental to the | :26:24. | :26:29. | |
human spirit about explorathon of imagination, of being able to | :26:30. | :26:32. | |
motivate and it is difficult to think of something comparable, to | :26:33. | :26:37. | |
make sure that we can have that to let our imagination run riot, to | :26:38. | :26:42. | |
make sure that we can have `n interest in space and giving people | :26:43. | :26:45. | |
a real look at what space c`n provide is absolutely vital. Madam | :26:46. | :26:48. | |
Deputy Speaker I think that the space industry is a huge success | :26:49. | :26:52. | |
story, it has got the potential to grow further and inspire a whole new | :26:53. | :26:56. | |
generation. It partnership between industrx, | :26:57. | :27:01. | |
government and research to help achieve that, but I think that the | :27:02. | :27:05. | |
debate today on how shows that there is a lot of consensus and a lot of | :27:06. | :27:09. | |
people who want to support them to make sure that the UK space industry | :27:10. | :27:10. | |
can realise its potential. Thank you can realise its potential. Thank you | :27:11. | :27:27. | |
Madam Deputy Speaker. I havd got a lot to thank the honourable member, | :27:28. | :27:31. | |
my honourable friend from Cdntral Ayrshire and Glasgow North four | :27:32. | :27:36. | |
Anybody who has been observhng me has seen me smiling broadly, this is | :27:37. | :27:41. | |
an incredibly exciting opportunity, as that young child, playing with | :27:42. | :27:46. | |
happened. How exciting to bd here in detachable parts, working ott how | :27:47. | :27:52. | |
happened. How exciting to bd here in the chamber today ska sing the | :27:53. | :27:57. | |
future of space policy. What an opportunity, it is a shame there is | :27:58. | :28:02. | |
so much space on the benches. I will try and avoid the puns and conduct | :28:03. | :28:07. | |
myself with some gravity in this debate. LAUGHTER | :28:08. | :28:14. | |
But I do want to talk about the exciting opportunities. It hs | :28:15. | :28:22. | |
innovation and the skills rdquired that I want to talk about most. | :28:23. | :28:26. | |
There are so many wonders in space and so many things we can ldarn in | :28:27. | :28:29. | |
space that we can't comprehdnd at this moment in time. Without the | :28:30. | :28:35. | |
investment that honourable Lembers including for Hartlepool was just | :28:36. | :28:41. | |
talking about, without the investment in taking the stdp to | :28:42. | :28:45. | |
make sure we have access to learning those things, how can we hope to | :28:46. | :28:52. | |
take full advantage of developing as a race in the fullest way possible? | :28:53. | :28:56. | |
There are stars out there that 500 times bigger our sun. How mtch do we | :28:57. | :29:05. | |
know at this point in time? BC3 3 Is a star with the biggest electrical | :29:06. | :29:12. | |
current ever detected in thd universe. Fantastic opportunities to | :29:13. | :29:14. | |
find out how it we learn about how we conduct our | :29:15. | :29:22. | |
lives and protect our planet. I am stunned to find out there is a | :29:23. | :29:25. | |
gigantic rain cloud which is not just the size... Floating in space, | :29:26. | :29:29. | |
this thing. Not just the size of the this thing. Not just the size of the | :29:30. | :29:35. | |
Pacific Ocean or whatever btt 100,000 times larger than the sun. | :29:36. | :29:39. | |
That is an amazing thing to comprehend. We don't know enough | :29:40. | :29:44. | |
about these things. We do know that we have to take steps, and hnvest. I | :29:45. | :29:50. | |
would like to mention a couple of lines about the Scottish Government | :29:51. | :29:55. | |
position because we see hugd potential in Scotland for the space | :29:56. | :30:01. | |
industry and they and I are pleased on behalf of the UK Governmdnt and | :30:02. | :30:04. | |
Civil Aviation Authority, bdcause that is something we should do | :30:05. | :30:08. | |
jointly, looking at this opportunity. They are committed to | :30:09. | :30:14. | |
supporting innovation and industry and recognise the contributhon of | :30:15. | :30:18. | |
science in a sustainable economy. The Honourable Member for H`rtlepool | :30:19. | :30:23. | |
was talking about the opportunities therefore us. Scotland has 06% of | :30:24. | :30:33. | |
space industry employees, it is an average growing 7.5% per ye`r, these | :30:34. | :30:38. | |
are encouraging figures and we must do what we can. To make mord of | :30:39. | :30:43. | |
that. So we are committed to supporting science and technology | :30:44. | :30:50. | |
development in education so there is also a recruitment exercise in | :30:51. | :30:53. | |
making sure there are Members to join the advisory Council and | :30:54. | :30:56. | |
engaging in the world science sector. They are currently | :30:57. | :31:03. | |
advertising for the post whhch is a credible thing to do and it is right | :31:04. | :31:06. | |
just now. There are lots th`t the Scottish Government will continue to | :31:07. | :31:10. | |
do, investing in four science do, investing in four science | :31:11. | :31:16. | |
centres as well as science festivals across Scotland to promote science | :31:17. | :31:20. | |
as a career for young peopld. That is where I want to go into lore | :31:21. | :31:23. | |
detail, because one of the things I was passionate about in the | :31:24. | :31:26. | |
Highlands in my previous career as a Highlands in my previous career as a | :31:27. | :31:31. | |
counsellor, was about getting young people interested and lifting their | :31:32. | :31:34. | |
sights to see the opportunities that are available, not just for us as a | :31:35. | :31:40. | |
set of countries in these islands, but also for themselves, to go into | :31:41. | :31:43. | |
rewarding build something important for | :31:44. | :31:49. | |
themselves. As a new council eight years ago I saw an advert that had | :31:50. | :31:54. | |
been put out by the European Space Agency calling for the next | :31:55. | :31:58. | |
generation of recruits to come forward, as an enthusiastic | :31:59. | :32:01. | |
counsellor I thought I would put out a press conference to encourage | :32:02. | :32:03. | |
highlanders to come was disappointed that it was met | :32:04. | :32:09. | |
with scepticism from my colleagues on the council and they thotght it | :32:10. | :32:14. | |
was a mad idea that I should encourage highland children to get | :32:15. | :32:18. | |
involved in the space industry. How desperately disappointed was I at | :32:19. | :32:20. | |
highlighted to me the need to make a that time at thereafter | :32:21. | :32:25. | |
highlighted to me the need to make a change in people's attitudes. | :32:26. | :32:35. | |
-- at their attitudes. Therd is a skills Academy starting in the | :32:36. | :32:41. | |
Highlands which brings together organisations such as the Hhghlands | :32:42. | :32:45. | |
and Islands enterprise, the Highland Council, and a range of private | :32:46. | :32:54. | |
engineering firms as well as other non-government operatives in the | :32:55. | :32:58. | |
Highlands. Encouraging young people from preschool, through thehr | :32:59. | :33:03. | |
education, and beyond, to t`ke advantage of the opportunitx of | :33:04. | :33:06. | |
these skills which directly transfer, not just incident`lly into | :33:07. | :33:14. | |
the aerospace industry, but actually to and from oil and gas and | :33:15. | :33:18. | |
renewable energy sectors, these can be transferred. There are enormous | :33:19. | :33:23. | |
opportunities by embracing this into the future. I hope that in future in | :33:24. | :33:27. | |
the Highlands attitudes will be changed. There is a lot of work to | :33:28. | :33:33. | |
be done. In this Chamber, in the Chamber in Holyrood and all of the | :33:34. | :33:36. | |
devolved administrations, to make sure we get the word out to young | :33:37. | :33:40. | |
people to raise their sights and look for another tuna tea there I | :33:41. | :33:48. | |
am grateful for my honourable friend from South Ayrshire for raising the | :33:49. | :33:49. | |
fact that Helen Sharman was the first astronaut from Britain in | :33:50. | :33:57. | |
space, because that is an ilportant message to repeat. Because ht is | :33:58. | :33:59. | |
important that we encourage girls and women to consider the | :34:00. | :34:07. | |
opportunities here. Tim peat is a fantastic ambassador for sp`ce, I | :34:08. | :34:11. | |
have great respect for what he has done already in a short perhod of | :34:12. | :34:21. | |
time. -- Tim Peake. But imagine if he had been Tina Peake is the if | :34:22. | :34:25. | |
that message went out to yotng girls and women, because there ard | :34:26. | :34:31. | |
systemic problems in our culture of encouraging young girls and women | :34:32. | :34:35. | |
into engineering just now that must be tackled. I would call on the | :34:36. | :34:38. | |
Government to join with me `nd others to make sure that we change | :34:39. | :34:46. | |
that attitude over the coming years. 11th ascent of engineers in the | :34:47. | :34:48. | |
sector are women, but 21% of engineering graduates focusdd on the | :34:49. | :34:52. | |
sector are women, the lowest sector are women, the lowest | :34:53. | :34:55. | |
percentage female employment rate in the sector in Europe and thd lowest | :34:56. | :34:57. | |
retention rate in Europe when there are significant skills | :34:58. | :35:03. | |
shortages at every level of the industry. We have heard abott the | :35:04. | :35:10. | |
fact that many people aren't aware of the opportunities in the space | :35:11. | :35:13. | |
sector or indeed the aerosp`ce sector. I was delighted yesterday to | :35:14. | :35:23. | |
meet a woman called Bridget Day the deputy programme director for the | :35:24. | :35:31. | |
aerospace exploitation programme. I would like to read something that | :35:32. | :35:37. | |
she said, she said she had worked as an engineer in the aerospacd | :35:38. | :35:42. | |
industry for nearly 40 years and worked for 30 years in the supply | :35:43. | :35:45. | |
chain for a heat exchange manufacturer in Wolverhampton, | :35:46. | :35:48. | |
starting as an apprentice and becoming an engineering dirdctor. | :35:49. | :35:52. | |
Their personal experience is that there has been little progrdss in | :35:53. | :35:55. | |
encouraging women into engineering and she currently leads a tdam of | :35:56. | :36:03. | |
engineers helping with new technologies. In a team of 24 there | :36:04. | :36:08. | |
is only one other woman. Th`t is a shocking figure, really. Whdn you | :36:09. | :36:13. | |
think about that. That is shocking that that is happening. What she | :36:14. | :36:18. | |
says, I quote, I know that engineering is considered dhfficult, | :36:19. | :36:25. | |
dirty by the general public meaning that young people are encouraged | :36:26. | :36:28. | |
away from engineering, thinking that it is something not for the future. | :36:29. | :36:36. | |
The increasingly green views, building on green belt and the | :36:37. | :36:43. | |
industry is not what my expdrience is, I have a varied working life and | :36:44. | :36:50. | |
every day something different deeply interested in solving probldms with | :36:51. | :36:52. | |
new ways of thinking, new possibilities. The amount of new | :36:53. | :36:57. | |
possibilities is better than ever. And she has capitalised this bit, | :36:58. | :37:03. | |
and now is a great time to become an engineer. We are very short of | :37:04. | :37:05. | |
engineers. As a woman in engineers. As a woman in | :37:06. | :37:11. | |
engineering, I am often the only woman in the room, usually only 5% | :37:12. | :37:15. | |
of women even at a large evdnt, and there is an assumption that I'm the | :37:16. | :37:17. | |
secretary not the boss. I rdputation is never a shoe and like a lan's. I | :37:18. | :37:27. | |
always have to earn it. -- never assumed. One of the things that | :37:28. | :37:33. | |
could address the issue and I have been allowed to ask two questions | :37:34. | :37:38. | |
this morning, and I think the Government needs to target girls | :37:39. | :37:44. | |
only schools and interest them in the engineering industries `s well. | :37:45. | :37:50. | |
I thank the Honourable Membdr for his point, and the substanthve point | :37:51. | :37:55. | |
about engaging young girls `nd women in the industry is important, and I | :37:56. | :38:02. | |
will continue to repeat this in this Chamber until we get it right, it is | :38:03. | :38:06. | |
something we need to tackle together to make sure they are able... Would | :38:07. | :38:13. | |
my honourable friend agree that one of the serious issues that really | :38:14. | :38:18. | |
has not been taken up is th`t we have a major shortage now of STEM | :38:19. | :38:29. | |
qualified teachers, and the industry can offer more lucrative wages, -- | :38:30. | :38:36. | |
until it can offer more lucrative wages it will impact the nulber | :38:37. | :38:41. | |
girls coming through. I thank my honourable friend and she is right, | :38:42. | :38:44. | |
education is the key. I mentioned the science skills Academy to tackle | :38:45. | :38:52. | |
not just... Influencing children as they are developing and givhng them | :38:53. | :38:55. | |
opportunities but essentially to try to reach out to society in general, | :38:56. | :39:00. | |
to say to parents and grandparents, you need to talk about this but also | :39:01. | :39:05. | |
to education professionals `nd those who make investments, that lead to | :39:06. | :39:11. | |
recruitment of those professionals, this is something that has to be | :39:12. | :39:17. | |
taken incredibly seriously. There are stakeholder activities going on | :39:18. | :39:19. | |
at the moment which are to be encouraged. The women in sp`ce jobs | :39:20. | :39:31. | |
resource encourages women into engineering jobs. And the committee | :39:32. | :39:38. | |
was established in 2009. We need to increase public awareness of the | :39:39. | :39:41. | |
space industry and its valud to the economy. We need to increashng gauge | :39:42. | :39:46. | |
meant with young people through projects like the Scottish space | :39:47. | :39:49. | |
School and there will no dotbt be others that are | :39:50. | :39:54. | |
need to make sure those are going on. Again I would support c`lls for | :39:55. | :39:58. | |
the need to concentrate funding on research and development. Wd | :39:59. | :40:02. | |
absolutely need to stop thinking about what's happening | :40:03. | :40:07. | |
start thinking about opporttnities for tomorrow. We need to work to | :40:08. | :40:15. | |
increase here support -- pedr support. I will finish by qtoting | :40:16. | :40:21. | |
Professor Alan Smith, head of the Department of space and physics at | :40:22. | :40:26. | |
an event with the Scottish Government and Civil Aviation | :40:27. | :40:36. | |
Authority. He said, Scotland has embraced space, space beers at home | :40:37. | :40:42. | |
in Scotland and let's make sure that all of our children get the | :40:43. | :40:45. | |
opportunity to feel at home in space too. | :40:46. | :40:52. | |
Thank you. It's a pleasure to follow my honourable friend from Inverness. | :40:53. | :41:01. | |
He made some excellent points at the end there about equality. And the | :41:02. | :41:08. | |
industry in terms of women. As a civil engineer I chime with that | :41:09. | :41:12. | |
same, I lack of women. It is doing same, I lack of women. It is doing | :41:13. | :41:18. | |
its best to remedy that buyhng caging in schools. My honourable | :41:19. | :41:22. | |
friend also saw yesterday and today, I great advocate for technology and | :41:23. | :41:25. | |
his enthusiasm shone through in his speech. I would like to also | :41:26. | :41:34. | |
congratulate the honourable Members for South Ayrshire and | :41:35. | :41:41. | |
for settling this debate in a timely way. I was with a confession, | :41:42. | :41:47. | |
anybody that knows me personally will probably be somewhat is a | :41:48. | :41:52. | |
prized I will be speaking in this space oriented debate. When Mike the | :41:53. | :41:54. | |
other Members, when I was growing fascination with space. Scidnce | :41:55. | :42:03. | |
fiction movies didn't do it for me, and although I was born in 0970I am | :42:04. | :42:12. | |
still to watch the Star Wars movies! Shame shame! At least that shows | :42:13. | :42:21. | |
they are listening! I'm concerned that my honourable friend as not | :42:22. | :42:25. | |
watch the early Star Wars movies but is he suggesting that he has watched | :42:26. | :42:30. | |
the later ones? I have seen one or two... I was taking my children for | :42:31. | :42:39. | |
a family activity. I couldn't tell you what happened in them. The good | :42:40. | :42:49. | |
news is, there will be no more puns in my speech. What I would say is | :42:50. | :42:54. | |
that I appreciate the importance of science and technology in commercial | :42:55. | :42:57. | |
aspects related to the spacd industry. I am right behind the | :42:58. | :43:07. | |
proposals for the UK Governlent to your focus for the space sector in | :43:08. | :43:12. | |
Europe. I applaud the ambithous growth targets as well. Why else am | :43:13. | :43:20. | |
I speaking in this debate? Ht is great to be able to speak in a | :43:21. | :43:26. | |
debate where it is not precdded by the words, there will now bd a | :43:27. | :43:30. | |
three-minute limit on speeches. Some people are probably hoping H do have | :43:31. | :43:32. | |
a three-minute limit! The real reason I'm participating in | :43:33. | :43:44. | |
today's debate, is for the `irport to be the space Port Hub. While it | :43:45. | :43:47. | |
is not my own, I can see the bdnefits | :43:48. | :43:52. | |
it will bring to the surrounding area in general and I have lany | :43:53. | :43:58. | |
constituents employed in thd error space industry. We have a 14% | :43:59. | :44:07. | |
unemployment rate in UK and only recently 200 skilled manufacturing | :44:08. | :44:14. | |
jobs from a factory in have gone. So you'll be most welcome in mx area. | :44:15. | :44:21. | |
Although it is an unemploymdnt rate, Escher has got a great pedigree for | :44:22. | :44:29. | |
engineering, both within my concision sea and the neighbouring | :44:30. | :44:36. | |
constituency. The honourabld member for Central Ayrshire, I know that | :44:37. | :44:39. | |
spaceport. We have heard th`t nearby these will expand to serve `s a new | :44:40. | :44:48. | |
Glasgow, has space technology companies. So, these are re`l | :44:49. | :44:55. | |
advantages, if Prestwick was chosen. His general we also know th`t the UK | :44:56. | :44:57. | |
space agency was clear, these space agency was clear, these | :44:58. | :45:02. | |
activities are much more th`n direct space technology, it covers climate | :45:03. | :45:10. | |
change, analysis as well as other research. As well as materi`ls, and | :45:11. | :45:15. | |
plasma physics. I realise, there have already been successful | :45:16. | :45:20. | |
partnerships in operation, there is no doubt that if Prestwick hs chosen | :45:21. | :45:27. | |
then that allows the linkagds, with a Scottish universities that are | :45:28. | :45:30. | |
among the best in the world, so that is our vantage point Prestwhck. If | :45:31. | :45:37. | |
we look at transport infrastructure, there is a rare harbour nearby, | :45:38. | :45:41. | |
Prestwick has got a rail hall and a close link to motorway network. For | :45:42. | :45:48. | |
me in the current short list, Prestwick is easily the most | :45:49. | :45:55. | |
error space all-party group, one of error space all-party group, one of | :45:56. | :46:04. | |
the discussion points. Was dducation and having kids prepared in stem and | :46:05. | :46:09. | |
technology design. I would say that the Scottish Government is laking | :46:10. | :46:11. | |
great strides, in terms of the great strides, in | :46:12. | :46:16. | |
curriculum for excellence, `nd the local authority that I was | :46:17. | :46:16. | |
previously a member of, has a stem previously a member | :46:17. | :46:23. | |
programme for primary schools and programme for primary schools and | :46:24. | :46:26. | |
secondary schools. In Scotl`nd there business enterprise | :46:27. | :46:30. | |
secondary schools. In Scotl`nd there is a wide implications in tdrms of | :46:31. | :46:33. | |
appreciating that school le`vers must have a greater underst`nding of | :46:34. | :46:38. | |
the working environment, wh`t would be expected of them, and crtcially | :46:39. | :46:46. | |
that it is not to get into full time higher education. If you colbine | :46:47. | :46:52. | |
that, again, Scotland and Prestwick in particular has got a head start | :46:53. | :46:59. | |
in terms of trying to recovdr in stem and technology design. Ayrshire | :47:00. | :47:06. | |
is also home to a campus th`t has one recent awards, working hn | :47:07. | :47:12. | |
partnership with industry. @n excellent example of this, hs a | :47:13. | :47:13. | |
partnership in order to cre`te partnership in order to cre`te | :47:14. | :47:19. | |
technicians because industrx technicians because industrx | :47:20. | :47:26. | |
recognises, there is not enough qualified expertise available for | :47:27. | :47:29. | |
the maintenance of the wind turbines. Another facet for Ayrshire | :47:30. | :47:41. | |
College, is a ?53 million c`mpus, due | :47:42. | :47:42. | |
see fantastic opportunities for see fantastic opportunities for | :47:43. | :47:44. | |
have heard that Prestwick h`s got have heard that Prestwick h`s got | :47:45. | :47:48. | |
UK, it does not suffer problems in UK, it does not suffer problems in | :47:49. | :47:56. | |
the way that others do elsewhere. Also, at present there is not enough | :47:57. | :47:59. | |
commercial flights from Prestwick, commercial flights from Prestwick, | :48:00. | :48:04. | |
capacity all logistical isstes, that does mean is that there are no | :48:05. | :48:11. | |
capacity all logistical isstes, that prevented from being a spacdport. In | :48:12. | :48:14. | |
fact, let us face it, if thdre is a spaceport at Prestwick, it would | :48:15. | :48:21. | |
help some of the costs, being covered by Scottish Governmdnt, | :48:22. | :48:25. | |
Scotland, freeing it up or dlsewhere Scotland, freeing it up or dlsewhere | :48:26. | :48:26. | |
in Scotland. Ayrshire and al Free in Scotland. Ayrshire and al Free | :48:27. | :48:35. | |
centre and is also home to the dark sky project, so clear benefhts for a | :48:36. | :48:43. | |
possible location at Prestwhck. If we go to general terms, the Scottish | :48:44. | :48:48. | |
Government is clear, and very supportive and positive abott | :48:49. | :48:50. | |
development in this sector, that was development in this sector, that was | :48:51. | :48:55. | |
demonstrated recently by Fiona has got's attendance, which was held in | :48:56. | :49:02. | |
Glasgow just before Christm`s. The conclusions from this event will be | :49:03. | :49:03. | |
presented to both governments, and presented to both governments, and | :49:04. | :49:08. | |
I'm confident that will unddrline a case. And in general, if I love | :49:09. | :49:16. | |
slightly away from Prestwick although I'm reluctant to do so and | :49:17. | :49:17. | |
motion presented, I would agree I look at the remainder of | :49:18. | :49:23. | |
motion presented, I would agree wholehearted with the motion, is | :49:24. | :49:25. | |
actually seems to be one sector where the UK Government is outlining | :49:26. | :49:31. | |
a positive vision. In the chamber with many colleagues I have often | :49:32. | :49:33. | |
complained with the need for government to spend more money on | :49:34. | :49:37. | |
social justice rather than projects that some people classed as vanity | :49:38. | :49:43. | |
projects, however, what the honourable member from Hartlepool | :49:44. | :49:45. | |
pointed out, there are clear benefits from this investment, | :49:46. | :49:50. | |
benefits that would be long,lasting and it is actually be true that | :49:51. | :49:54. | |
Major Tim peat's Mission cotld inspire another generation of | :49:55. | :49:59. | |
scientists, explorers, and hn order to allow this to continue, ht is | :50:00. | :50:03. | |
quite clear that the governlent has to set guidelines for the fhnal bids | :50:04. | :50:07. | |
for the spaceport submissions, for these two have any chance of being | :50:08. | :50:14. | |
operational by 2018 and thex also ensure that no momentum is lost The | :50:15. | :50:22. | |
final decision, making procdss, it must be transparent, it shotld be | :50:23. | :50:24. | |
nonpolitical and this would allow best value for money in futtre | :50:25. | :50:31. | |
success. I would say, that the government likes to cut purd | :50:32. | :50:32. | |
down that route, they could award it proceed, if they don't want | :50:33. | :50:37. | |
down that route, they could award it to Scotland in general Prestwick. Or | :50:38. | :50:41. | |
even of hands and that will solvd any | :50:42. | :50:55. | |
problems. Thank you and it has been a very interesting debate so far and | :50:56. | :51:00. | |
I thank you, for bringing this through the good auspices of the | :51:01. | :51:04. | |
backbench committee. I had `n interest in space from an e`rly age | :51:05. | :51:09. | |
and it proved most useful, `s this government social and fiscal policy | :51:10. | :51:14. | |
is from another planet and completely alien to me. Howdver we | :51:15. | :51:21. | |
are here, to discuss somethhng that should not be contentious, with a | :51:22. | :51:24. | |
fair amount of unanimity. Lhke a lot of youngsters, I grew up fascinated | :51:25. | :51:29. | |
with the stars, with differdnt planets, and the work of Nasa and | :51:30. | :51:35. | |
other space agencies. I'm stre that I'm not the only member present who | :51:36. | :51:38. | |
either that or a football player. either that or a football player. | :51:39. | :51:43. | |
But you can be sure that wh`t no one was trying to be was an MP. Yet here | :51:44. | :51:51. | |
we all are, astronaut, football ballerina, we have lost out on our | :51:52. | :51:53. | |
childhood dreams but that doesn t mean that we can't help othdr kids | :51:54. | :52:06. | |
to fulfil theirs. This is a dream that many jokes in both girls and | :52:07. | :52:08. | |
boys have, there is something about space that captures the imagination | :52:09. | :52:14. | |
from an early age. Many will not quite reach their dream, but it will | :52:15. | :52:18. | |
undoubtedly lead to a fulfilling career. During the summer rdcess, I | :52:19. | :52:23. | |
visited a primary school in my constituency and more than half of | :52:24. | :52:25. | |
that they wanted to be an astronaut that they wanted to be an | :52:26. | :52:30. | |
when they grew up. I'm sure that members have had a similar dxpress | :52:31. | :52:32. | |
when they have visited local schools, and I expect this number to | :52:33. | :52:39. | |
get even higher, it is important work that is the astronaut Tim peat | :52:40. | :52:44. | |
Speaker, moving onto the economic Speaker, moving onto the economic | :52:45. | :52:50. | |
benefits, it will no doubt surprise people, that in 2012-13, UK industry | :52:51. | :52:57. | |
contributed ?5.1 billion to the economy, the same as always. The | :52:58. | :53:04. | |
latest figures are over ?11 billion and across the UK, it supports | :53:05. | :53:07. | |
68,000 jobs. It is hoped th`t the industry output will grow to 40 | :53:08. | :53:15. | |
and a half billion, more th`n 3 and a half billion, more th`n 3 | :53:16. | :53:19. | |
companies operate in the market We are talking about the contrhbution | :53:20. | :53:26. | |
that it makes to space exploration, Clyde space produce a number of | :53:27. | :53:29. | |
products that are produced by Nasa and the European Space Agency, and | :53:30. | :53:38. | |
in 24 they contribute ?1.2 lillion, produced for .ca says satellite One | :53:39. | :53:43. | |
of the things I'm particularly proud of, is a product that was jointly | :53:44. | :53:48. | |
funded by Clyde and UK spacd agency funded by Clyde and UK spacd agency | :53:49. | :53:49. | |
and it is the first satellite designed and built in Scotl`nd. It | :53:50. | :53:52. | |
advanced nano satellite ever made has been described as | :53:53. | :53:57. | |
advanced nano satellite ever made and Clyde are rightly | :53:58. | :53:58. | |
innovation. I mention this, it innovation. I mention this, | :53:59. | :54:02. | |
underlines the point that there are companies throughout the UK, | :54:03. | :54:04. | |
not only aid the work of thd UK not only aid the work of | :54:05. | :54:10. | |
space agency but that of thd European Space Agency had N`sa has | :54:11. | :54:18. | |
well. Madam Deputy Speaker ht is important, to see | :54:19. | :54:18. | |
to help the scientists and dngineers to help the scientists and dngineers | :54:19. | :54:18. | |
of tomorrow. But first I wotld like of tomorrow. But first I wotld | :54:19. | :54:24. | |
to make a wider societal pohnt about dreams. I was struck by somdthing | :54:25. | :54:26. | |
with the aerospace industry commie that Lord MP said with a medting | :54:27. | :54:32. | |
with the aerospace industry commie was making the point that in Britain | :54:33. | :54:34. | |
we tend to stifle ambition `nd the young as opposed to supporthng it. | :54:35. | :54:39. | |
For too long a significant section of society and I include myself | :54:40. | :54:46. | |
have had a play it safe, walk before you run, don't get ideas above your | :54:47. | :54:47. | |
but far too slowly, I did claim to but far too slowly, I did claim to | :54:48. | :54:54. | |
have the answers but I think we need to acknowledge that fact, to have | :54:55. | :54:54. | |
opportunity, no matter their the quality of ambition and | :54:55. | :55:00. | |
opportunity, no matter their background. A good start wotld be | :55:01. | :55:04. | |
aerospace to formulate a collective aerospace to | :55:05. | :55:07. | |
strategy and curriculum enh`ncement, that would engage with children | :55:08. | :55:09. | |
career, as I heard there ard many career, as I heard there ard many | :55:10. | :55:15. | |
companies who do good work hn this area, this is an ad hoc approach for | :55:16. | :55:16. | |
children. People have been lucky as children. People have been lucky as | :55:17. | :55:24. | |
we have been fortunate that the mission discovery programme has come | :55:25. | :55:25. | |
for the last two years, this is an for the last two years, this is an | :55:26. | :55:31. | |
educational programme, launched by University of the West of Scotland | :55:32. | :55:37. | |
and the educational trust. @nd provides an exciting opporttnity to | :55:38. | :55:40. | |
15 people to learn from astronaut and other experts and space and | :55:41. | :55:46. | |
sides as well as recruiting 15 paid mentorship positions. Mission | :55:47. | :55:52. | |
discovery recruits, astronatts and scientists and leaders to hdlp train | :55:53. | :55:54. | |
local people studying in thd area. local people studying in thd area. | :55:55. | :55:59. | |
The programme involves studdnts working in areas including working | :56:00. | :56:01. | |
together with experts to formulate together with experts | :56:02. | :56:06. | |
an idea, for experiments th`t can be carried out in space. It is normally | :56:07. | :56:08. | |
the students who benefit, experts also value a time that they | :56:09. | :56:14. | |
In fact the former Nasa astronaut, In fact the former Nasa | :56:15. | :56:20. | |
and president of the space @lliance, and president of the space @lliance, | :56:21. | :56:20. | |
says that it is by far the lost says that it is by far the lost | :56:21. | :56:26. | |
rented and interesting ende`vour, space. The programme was a great | :56:27. | :56:29. | |
success and the students got practical knowledge that aided | :56:30. | :56:33. | |
studies and also made it a real studies and also made it a real | :56:34. | :56:34. | |
addition to the see the of the students. Programmes like | :56:35. | :56:39. | |
discovery, equip the students, to give them a career in the space | :56:40. | :56:42. | |
industry and it is vitally hmportant as we attempt to grow that hndustry. | :56:43. | :56:48. | |
Mission discovery is a fant`stic programme and I would urge other | :56:49. | :56:49. | |
local authorities to try and bring local authorities to try and bring | :56:50. | :56:54. | |
it to the areas. But the potential that exists within the UK space | :56:55. | :56:56. | |
utilised, it will help act `s a industry is huge, and I expdct that | :56:57. | :57:02. | |
utilised, it will help act `s a catalyst to help build towards that | :57:03. | :57:07. | |
potential. To that end I welcome the National space policy, hoping that | :57:08. | :57:11. | |
the government can work with the sector, to improve opportunhties. | :57:12. | :57:14. | |
The growth of the space indtstry should not be viewed in a v`cuum. If | :57:15. | :57:19. | |
we are to achieve the goal of capturing 10% of the global market | :57:20. | :57:22. | |
then this will create real opportunities for us have bden to | :57:23. | :57:30. | |
create 100,000 new jobs, and generate ?40 billion for thd | :57:31. | :57:33. | |
economy. I do have some concerns that the government will fahl to | :57:34. | :57:37. | |
achieve the plans, they havd not hit too many targets of late. To achieve | :57:38. | :57:41. | |
the goals, will have to comlit more public funding and we have seen in | :57:42. | :57:47. | |
other policy areas that the fixation, and the way that this | :57:48. | :57:50. | |
economic mindset will prevent the government from achieving what they | :57:51. | :57:53. | |
have set out in the National space policy. The amount of public | :57:54. | :57:57. | |
spending allocated to the space industry has to improve. 2003 UK | :57:58. | :58:03. | |
Government spending, ranked seventh among all other OECD countrhes. | :58:04. | :58:09. | |
However Madam Deputy Speaker, contrary to my natural insthncts, I | :58:10. | :58:13. | |
will not end with a contribttion on a sour note, I do wish the | :58:14. | :58:21. | |
government well. Having a vhbrant space industry is vitally ilportant | :58:22. | :58:26. | |
to growing the economy, cre`ting jobs and contributing to thd | :58:27. | :58:31. | |
national output. I hope that the Government can contribute to the | :58:32. | :58:33. | |
enthusiasm surrounding the TK space industry. I would like to start this | :58:34. | :58:42. | |
original space man and I'm not original space man and I'm not | :58:43. | :58:52. | |
talking about your ego Garan. I am talking about David Bowie and I m | :58:53. | :58:56. | |
sure the house will join me in sending our condolences to his | :58:57. | :59:06. | |
family. -- Yuri Gagarin. I grew up in the 70s and 80s and therd are | :59:07. | :59:10. | |
things I remember vividly from my childhood, first the excitelent of | :59:11. | :59:15. | |
the power cuts, maybe not so exciting for the industries, but for | :59:16. | :59:20. | |
me as a child, getting out the candles and wandering through the | :59:21. | :59:23. | |
house in darkness always has some great memories. I remember Largaret | :59:24. | :59:32. | |
Thatcher coming to power. And the less said about that the better And | :59:33. | :59:41. | |
I remember space. I remember the space programme. And I remelber the | :59:42. | :59:47. | |
space shuttle programme with great excitement which started in 198 . | :59:48. | :59:58. | |
That excitement actually took off for me when the space shuttle made a | :59:59. | :00:03. | |
surprise visit to the Paris airshow in 1983. For the space shuttle to | :00:04. | :00:10. | |
get to the Paris airshow it had to piggyback on a jumbo jet. I was at | :00:11. | :00:16. | |
primary school in Glasgow at the time and we knew that the jtmbo jet | :00:17. | :00:20. | |
would be flying over at somd point during the morning. We had been told | :00:21. | :00:24. | |
when we heard the jumbo jet we had to stand, quietly put our chairs | :00:25. | :00:30. | |
under the desk, line-up at the door and we would all carefully outside. | :00:31. | :00:38. | |
Of course, all order was ab`ndoned when ever the noise of the jumbo jet | :00:39. | :00:43. | |
was heard. Chairs were thrown, people climbed across desks, people | :00:44. | :00:52. | |
were knocked down. This was the West End of Glasgow. And out we went to | :00:53. | :01:01. | |
see the incredible sight of the space shuttle perched precariously | :01:02. | :01:08. | |
it seemed on the back of thd jumbo. And it was that single event in my | :01:09. | :01:13. | |
childhood that really sparkdd a major interest for me, both in | :01:14. | :01:17. | |
science, technology, but particularly in physics. It was | :01:18. | :01:23. | |
through that that I ended up choosing to study physics at | :01:24. | :01:26. | |
university and eventually bdcoming a physics teacher. The inspir`tion | :01:27. | :01:34. | |
offered by space really strdtches across all aspects of society. I | :01:35. | :01:42. | |
would like to mention anothdr physicist at this point, ard far | :01:43. | :01:46. | |
more famous visitors than mxself. And they've visited as to who has | :01:47. | :01:51. | |
done great work for space, Professor Brian Cox. -- a far more falous | :01:52. | :01:56. | |
. One treat was to see clips of Brian Cox from his wonderful DVDs, | :01:57. | :02:06. | |
wonders of the solar system, wonders of the universe. It never strprised | :02:07. | :02:12. | |
me, the more academic students would be interested, but what was always | :02:13. | :02:16. | |
really surprising to me was that the less academic ones always w`nted to | :02:17. | :02:23. | |
see him as well. And would regularly say, can we stick on that Professor | :02:24. | :02:33. | |
Guy?! They enjoyed that. I was lucky enough to be at the science Museum | :02:34. | :02:40. | |
on the 15th of December for the launch of Tim Peake and there were | :02:41. | :02:43. | |
thousands of schoolchildren there and the enthusiasm and excitement | :02:44. | :02:50. | |
that they showed reminded md greatly after the incident from my childhood | :02:51. | :02:56. | |
with the jumbo jet. And I w`s talking to one of my colleagues a | :02:57. | :03:00. | |
couple of days ago who was `sking me, what's the point of this debate? | :03:01. | :03:06. | |
Is it really that important and what does space exploration mattdr? Well, | :03:07. | :03:12. | |
it is absolutely crucial th`t we have this debate. And it is | :03:13. | :03:19. | |
important to have it at this point. There are three aspects of space | :03:20. | :03:27. | |
exploration that I think ard most important. Firstly, there are only | :03:28. | :03:33. | |
two industry is pushing innovation. Really, through great leaps and | :03:34. | :03:38. | |
bounds, and that is defence and space exploration. Space sphn offs | :03:39. | :03:45. | |
have really found their way into all aspects of everyday life, from | :03:46. | :03:53. | |
materials such as Teflon, solar cells, robotic arms, which have | :03:54. | :03:54. | |
really led the development of prosthetic limbs. Something as basic | :03:55. | :04:02. | |
as a memory foam mattress w`s developed as a result of having | :04:03. | :04:06. | |
questions for astronauts during take-off. And there is also the | :04:07. | :04:15. | |
story about the pen, the sp`ce pen that Nasa spend money developing. Of | :04:16. | :04:21. | |
course the cosmonauts at thd time decided that the pencil works just | :04:22. | :04:29. | |
as well in zero gravity conditions. But there are wide ranging | :04:30. | :04:32. | |
applications but space technology. The damping system as part of the | :04:33. | :04:45. | |
launch pad has special fluid dampers which make sure that the latnch can | :04:46. | :04:51. | |
take place in a stable manndr. When the millennium Bridge just down the | :04:52. | :04:55. | |
road experienced such issues in its first couple of days after opening, | :04:56. | :05:00. | |
with the vibrations, it was these same dampers, taken straight from | :05:01. | :05:05. | |
the launch pad of the shuttle provided the solution to its | :05:06. | :05:13. | |
problem. And technologies lhke that happen throughout. So these spin off | :05:14. | :05:22. | |
technologies don't just imp`ct on our life, they have huge economic | :05:23. | :05:28. | |
benefits and it is important to recognise this. Secondly, the | :05:29. | :05:33. | |
satellites in orbit, they h`ve now become fundamental to the w`y that | :05:34. | :05:39. | |
we live our lives, in fact the largest satellite in orbit hs of | :05:40. | :05:44. | |
course the moon, which is most fundamental to life because with it | :05:45. | :05:48. | |
we get the tides and all sorts of benefits from that in terms of life | :05:49. | :05:55. | |
and life in tidal areas. Very important. Artificial satellites | :05:56. | :06:02. | |
that have been put into orbht provide us with television from | :06:03. | :06:09. | |
around the world, satellite broadcasts, which come to us through | :06:10. | :06:15. | |
geo- stationary satellites hn high Earth orbits. 22,000 miles `bove | :06:16. | :06:23. | |
Earth. I will give way. I al grateful to my honourable friend for | :06:24. | :06:27. | |
giving way. Would she also `gree that there are exciting | :06:28. | :06:32. | |
microsatellite technology opportunities which dramatically | :06:33. | :06:35. | |
reduce the cost of putting satellites into space and c`n still | :06:36. | :06:42. | |
perform functions previouslx carried out by larger machines and on that | :06:43. | :06:45. | |
basis we should invest more in that work? Absolutely. What is not | :06:46. | :06:51. | |
understood greatly is that satellite launches take place very regularly. | :06:52. | :06:56. | |
The next satellite launch is in fact on Sunday and we haven't he`rd much | :06:57. | :07:00. | |
of that in the news. More and more microsatellites provide gre`t | :07:01. | :07:08. | |
service to us. On the point of geo- stationary satellites, of course | :07:09. | :07:11. | |
they were first conceptualised as science fiction by Arthur C Clarke | :07:12. | :07:17. | |
and it reinforces the point I made earlier about the importancd of | :07:18. | :07:22. | |
space and the inspiration that it provides to creative and cultural | :07:23. | :07:31. | |
scenes, and has a knock-on dffect in its application. It is important for | :07:32. | :07:37. | |
to write science fiction because often it provides ideas and | :07:38. | :07:44. | |
sometimes gives the real encouragement for creativitx within | :07:45. | :07:49. | |
the development of such things. Satellites are so important in other | :07:50. | :07:56. | |
areas. As I mentioned, TV, `nd communications, weather and climate | :07:57. | :07:58. | |
monitoring. It was satellitds put into space that first photographed | :07:59. | :08:04. | |
the issues with the pole lids cap and were able to compare photographs | :08:05. | :08:14. | |
from now and 30 years ago which show the real impact of that. Obviously | :08:15. | :08:20. | |
the United Kingdom would have the potential to be part of a world | :08:21. | :08:25. | |
network of satellites in th`t geo- stationary satellites are lhkely to | :08:26. | :08:30. | |
be launched from America, the UAE and Singapore whereas Austr`lia and | :08:31. | :08:35. | |
in the northern hemisphere would be launching polar and sun synchronous | :08:36. | :08:40. | |
and another blatant punt for Prestwick is that we are further | :08:41. | :08:45. | |
north! I thank my honourabld friend for her intervention and of course | :08:46. | :08:48. | |
different areas provide different services no doubt. Possibly the most | :08:49. | :09:00. | |
famous satellite is the Hubble space telescope. I was asked why not just | :09:01. | :09:05. | |
look at the stars from a dark area of the earth like chilli or Hawaii? | :09:06. | :09:11. | |
Well, the Earth's atmospherd is fluid, almost as if you imagine | :09:12. | :09:17. | |
water in a swimming pool and if you try to view images through water, | :09:18. | :09:21. | |
you will get an idea of what it is like trying to view space from the | :09:22. | :09:27. | |
surface of the Earth. So to get out of that water, to get out of the | :09:28. | :09:33. | |
fluid and put the Hubble sp`ce telescope of their | :09:34. | :09:37. | |
which could never be considdred in the past. -- there. The third aspect | :09:38. | :09:45. | |
which is important is the possibility of living in different | :09:46. | :09:48. | |
environments. It was bought for a long time that for life to dxist two | :09:49. | :09:56. | |
things were required, and oxygen rich atmosphere, and liquid water. | :09:57. | :10:03. | |
-- an oxygen rich atmospherd. We have now even seen evidence of life | :10:04. | :10:07. | |
and deep pressures and cold parts of and deep pressures and cold parts of | :10:08. | :10:16. | |
the world. That gives us hope that there may be life in other places | :10:17. | :10:21. | |
even within our own solar sxstem. And it gives us the opportunity to | :10:22. | :10:25. | |
think further afield beyond the constraints of the surface of the | :10:26. | :10:35. | |
Earth in terms of living. Wd have mentioned the astronauts involved | :10:36. | :10:38. | |
already. I actually counted seven British-born astronauts and I may | :10:39. | :10:44. | |
have that number wrong. Two space tourists and a number of thdm moved | :10:45. | :10:47. | |
to the States to pursue thehr career. What is exciting about Helen | :10:48. | :10:56. | |
Sharman and major Tim Peake is that they were both living here hn the UK | :10:57. | :11:01. | |
and that gives great hope for youngsters. What we must not forget | :11:02. | :11:05. | |
is that space travel is extremely dangerous. Two aspects of space | :11:06. | :11:12. | |
travel, the take-off and landing, are particularly dangerous. The | :11:13. | :11:21. | |
Challenger disaster in 1986 where seven astronauts were killed by | :11:22. | :11:29. | |
faulty seals is an example of the danger. Re-entering the atmosphere, | :11:30. | :11:33. | |
I will refer to the fluid again if you can imagine skimming stones of | :11:34. | :11:37. | |
the surface of a lake, that is what it's like trying to get the | :11:38. | :11:41. | |
spaceship back into the atmosphere. The spaceship is to enter a | :11:42. | :11:47. | |
particular angle and speed `nd if you get it wrong it is like skimming | :11:48. | :11:51. | |
stone, it will bounce off the atmosphere. Get it wrong with too | :11:52. | :11:57. | |
steep and entrance and it whll burn up buried quickly, so it is a very | :11:58. | :12:03. | |
precise operation. And again, we saw with the Columbia disaster hn 2 03, | :12:04. | :12:11. | |
the issues with that. When H was at the science Museum with all of those | :12:12. | :12:16. | |
children, the cheers and shouts as the rocket launched, I was not | :12:17. | :12:19. | |
cheering and shouting at th`t point. If you looked at Nasa, sorrx, not | :12:20. | :12:28. | |
Nasa, ground control, they `lso waited until the rocket was into | :12:29. | :12:35. | |
orbit proper until the celebrations really started, and that's the point | :12:36. | :12:40. | |
where it is considered a lot safer. We have to pay tribute to the | :12:41. | :12:45. | |
bravery of these astronauts as well. This is a dangerous job. Albeit | :12:46. | :12:55. | |
glamorous. Tim Peake of course is going to do his space walk tomorrow | :12:56. | :12:59. | |
is my colleague mentioned. He is going to be outside the space | :13:00. | :13:07. | |
station for over six hours `nd this is no small town is that he is | :13:08. | :13:11. | |
undertaking, it is highly tdchnical and dangerous. Really, we whsh him | :13:12. | :13:16. | |
all the very best as he unddrtakes this past tomorrow. -- this task. I | :13:17. | :13:26. | |
have mentioned STEM earlier and I'm pleased to hear so many people | :13:27. | :13:30. | |
talking about the importancd of temporary max subjects and getting | :13:31. | :13:33. | |
girls involved. I will reitdrate my point that in order to get these | :13:34. | :13:38. | |
girls involved, we need to get teachers in place and if we are | :13:39. | :13:41. | |
going to get teachers in pl`ce, we need to have a serious policy of | :13:42. | :13:46. | |
how we are going to attract them teachers will | :13:47. | :13:50. | |
how we are going to attract them from other areas. -- teachers. | :13:51. | :13:57. | |
I was lucky enough to meet ` Nasa astronaut a couple of years ago and | :13:58. | :14:03. | |
he met my schoolchildren, and one of them asked what is it to sttdy to | :14:04. | :14:08. | |
become an astronaut? Any answer they got was great. What he said to them | :14:09. | :14:13. | |
was, it doesn't matter. You must follow what you are passion`te | :14:14. | :14:19. | |
about, either at science, engineering, physics, chemistry | :14:20. | :14:22. | |
biology, medicine, follow what you are passionate about and thdn other | :14:23. | :14:26. | |
things will come on beyond that I think that is an important lessage | :14:27. | :14:28. | |
for our young people, follow something that you are | :14:29. | :14:38. | |
passionate about. Finally, H would ask the Minister, to commit to the | :14:39. | :14:46. | |
space industry. Not just financially, but also in terms of | :14:47. | :14:49. | |
advertising and also in terls of ambition. Let us start as mx | :14:50. | :14:59. | |
colleague from Paisley menthoned, we have to do have the ambition, we | :15:00. | :15:01. | |
have to say to young people for you, this is available to | :15:02. | :15:12. | |
everybody. On the back of Thm Peake's mission that has bedn so | :15:13. | :15:16. | |
inspirational to watch, we really need to get the message out there, | :15:17. | :15:21. | |
that space is open for business So I would call upon the Minister, to | :15:22. | :15:34. | |
make it so. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker, I would like to | :15:35. | :15:38. | |
congratulate the honourable member for Central Ayrshire, for allowing | :15:39. | :15:40. | |
this debate, along with the committee, and also all honourable | :15:41. | :15:46. | |
members who have made contrhbutions today, they have shown real | :15:47. | :15:50. | |
expertise and passion for the subject. I would also like to join | :15:51. | :15:55. | |
everyone in paying tribute to Major Tim Peake. I think we all w`tched | :15:56. | :15:58. | |
his take-off with fascination and all at the and of last year and I | :15:59. | :16:02. | |
would like to join the rest of the house in wishing him every success | :16:03. | :16:06. | |
over the course of his misshon and in particular his space walk | :16:07. | :16:10. | |
tomorrow. I was particularlx excited today to hear that there ard | :16:11. | :16:14. | |
discussions ongoing about a live link between Parliament and the | :16:15. | :16:17. | |
International Space Station, not least because I would love to hear | :16:18. | :16:24. | |
it in Hansard, ground control to Major Tim. But as a first UK | :16:25. | :16:31. | |
astronaut to join the UK sp`ce Station, his journey is a | :16:32. | :16:38. | |
significant milestone in thhs country is involvement in space | :16:39. | :16:41. | |
exploration and I do hope that this new interest in space exploration | :16:42. | :16:45. | |
and travel inspires young pdople across the country and will help | :16:46. | :16:49. | |
them to pursue careers in science and technology. But, as the | :16:50. | :16:54. | |
honourable member from Glasgow North has just said, it is appropriate to | :16:55. | :16:59. | |
pay tribute to those in this 30th anniversary of the Challengdr | :17:00. | :17:02. | |
disaster, to those who lost their lives in that, particularly to | :17:03. | :17:06. | |
someone who was a teacher, who went into space to inspire young people. | :17:07. | :17:14. | |
So it is the 20th of Januarx I think, that is 30 years since that | :17:15. | :17:18. | |
is asked and I think it is worth paying tribute to them. Tim Peake's | :17:19. | :17:26. | |
achievement is a testament to human ingenuity and progress, and it | :17:27. | :17:30. | |
highlights successful collaboration between government and industry The | :17:31. | :17:34. | |
UK's new National space polhcy that aims to increase UK share of the | :17:35. | :17:39. | |
global space economy to 10% by 030, it is being worked on by | :17:40. | :17:43. | |
specialists, from government, academia and industry. And hts | :17:44. | :17:49. | |
commitment to supporting thd growth of the commercial space sector | :17:50. | :17:55. | |
underpinned by the world-cl`ss academic research that we h`ve here. | :17:56. | :17:57. | |
It is particularly welcome, and we support this kind of partnership | :17:58. | :18:01. | |
from this side of the house and we believe that the government should | :18:02. | :18:03. | |
be doing more of the same in other sectors. And the continued support | :18:04. | :18:09. | |
for the UK space industry is vital. We have heard about the | :18:10. | :18:13. | |
contributions made from manx honourable members, ?11.3 bhllion | :18:14. | :18:21. | |
will stop and it also supports a number of vital public servhces | :18:22. | :18:29. | |
medicine, disaster relief, defence, transport, and actual though we | :18:30. | :18:32. | |
associated with space travel, we have heard on a day-to-day level, it | :18:33. | :18:38. | |
impacts on all of our lives, satellite TV, smartphones. H don't | :18:39. | :18:41. | |
think I would ever leave my house without my Sat Nav. We are | :18:42. | :18:46. | |
benefiting from technology reduced by the UK space industry. It is | :18:47. | :18:52. | |
important to all of our livds and therefore it is important to | :18:53. | :18:56. | |
long-term strategic goal for the sector. It is disappointing to see | :18:57. | :19:00. | |
that the space innovation and growth strategy, reports that the `d hoc | :19:01. | :19:04. | |
nature of government funding for space programmes has hinderdd the | :19:05. | :19:09. | |
strategic planning. And while the government's direct investmdnt in | :19:10. | :19:12. | |
the space industry is welcole, this has to be accompanied by a wider | :19:13. | :19:18. | |
strategy for skilling up future generations and ensuring th`t the | :19:19. | :19:21. | |
UK's leading the way when it comes to research and development. We have | :19:22. | :19:25. | |
heard from many honourable about the importance of the next | :19:26. | :19:30. | |
generation of scientists and engineers, and we have got to equip | :19:31. | :19:34. | |
them with the skills that allow them to undertake the jobs of thd future. | :19:35. | :19:40. | |
Fortunately as we have heard, there is a widespread shortage of skills | :19:41. | :19:45. | |
in times and technology, and the government freeze on 16-19 funding | :19:46. | :19:49. | |
and the adult skills sector combined with the time that colleges are | :19:50. | :19:53. | |
facing a huge upheaval and instability, will not be helping | :19:54. | :20:00. | |
this same. I have particular sympathy with the members who have | :20:01. | :20:07. | |
mentioned the encouragement of women into this sector. We need to think | :20:08. | :20:13. | |
our job women and young girls, that this is an area that can help them. | :20:14. | :20:19. | |
It is an area that isn't a dirty engineering sector but provhdes | :20:20. | :20:22. | |
great opportunities, and I'l concerned that we don't do this | :20:23. | :20:27. | |
early enough. When the young women are around eight to ten, thdy are | :20:28. | :20:32. | |
absolutely infused by science and technology. However by the time they | :20:33. | :20:36. | |
reach 16, enthusiasm has waned considerably. We need to kedp that | :20:37. | :20:44. | |
enthusiasm going. I do belidve that we need to look at the caredrs | :20:45. | :20:51. | |
advice, that we give. And young women from all backgrounds need to | :20:52. | :20:55. | |
being courage to as the honourable member from Inverness said. I will | :20:56. | :21:09. | |
give way. Madam Deputy Speaker I thank the honourable Lindy for | :21:10. | :21:13. | |
allowing me to speak. Can I just say that it is so encouraging in the | :21:14. | :21:16. | |
royal air force to see the number of women pilots, particularly women | :21:17. | :21:22. | |
actually through our fighter pilots, who are not just showing th`t they | :21:23. | :21:27. | |
are the equal of men but soletimes beating them hands down. Obviously | :21:28. | :21:35. | |
as a female myself I would say that quite often in many professhons we | :21:36. | :21:40. | |
don't have dubious good as len but better to prove that we are the | :21:41. | :21:51. | |
equal. We have a target of growing the number of jobs in the space | :21:52. | :21:54. | |
industry, so can the Ministdr tell the house, what assessment he has | :21:55. | :22:00. | |
made of the impact to the ctts to the skills budget on the future | :22:01. | :22:05. | |
success of the UK space indtstry? And what particularly is he doing to | :22:06. | :22:10. | |
encourage young women to enter this area? Also, if our space industry is | :22:11. | :22:16. | |
to prosper globally, we had to be pioneers of the field of research | :22:17. | :22:21. | |
and development, but our public investment in research and | :22:22. | :22:24. | |
development has not kept pace with international competitors. We spend | :22:25. | :22:29. | |
less on research as a share of GDP than France, Germany, the US and | :22:30. | :22:34. | |
China, all of whom are incrdasing their commitment to science and | :22:35. | :22:39. | |
technology. In 2013, UK Govdrnment expenditure on civil space research | :22:40. | :22:45. | |
and development was only seventh amongst OECD countries, | :22:46. | :22:50. | |
some of our competitors. Investment is vital, to science but so is | :22:51. | :22:59. | |
regulation and it is also ilportant that the government regulatory | :23:00. | :23:01. | |
regime creates an environment which enables growth in the satellite in | :23:02. | :23:05. | |
space sector. Can the Minister explain what he's doing to dnable | :23:06. | :23:10. | |
new players such as SMEs and start-ups to access the market? And | :23:11. | :23:15. | |
as with many UK industries, the ability for businesses to access | :23:16. | :23:20. | |
finance remains a concern. Can the Minister explain what he's doing to | :23:21. | :23:23. | |
improve access to finance two companies in the space industry | :23:24. | :23:29. | |
Throughout this debate we h`ve heard much about the achievements of space | :23:30. | :23:33. | |
travel and innovation and the considerable benefits that ht brings | :23:34. | :23:39. | |
to our economy. Tim Peake's journey to the International Space Station | :23:40. | :23:42. | |
has got the potential to inspire a new generation. And reignitd the | :23:43. | :23:48. | |
passion for space exploration that we saw in my generation when we saw | :23:49. | :23:54. | |
a man first on the moon. Thhs government has to capitalisd on this | :23:55. | :23:58. | |
over the coming months and xears, and ensure that it continues to work | :23:59. | :24:02. | |
in partnership with this sector allowing us all to reach for the | :24:03. | :24:10. | |
stars. George Freeman. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker, can I thank | :24:11. | :24:15. | |
you, and the Speaker 's offhce, on securing this debate. I think it has | :24:16. | :24:20. | |
demonstrated this house at hts very best, capturing the mood of the | :24:21. | :24:22. | |
nation and and challenging vision for how this | :24:23. | :24:28. | |
country could do so much more in the years ahead in this very exciting | :24:29. | :24:34. | |
field. It is a timely debatd, as a number of honourable members have | :24:35. | :24:39. | |
commented, as Major Tim Peake floats in orbit above us looking down, and | :24:40. | :24:44. | |
tomorrow conducts the very historic and very serious space walk in space | :24:45. | :24:52. | |
above us. He is of course the first British European Space Agency | :24:53. | :24:55. | |
astronaut and the first British astronaut to go into the | :24:56. | :24:58. | |
International Space Station. I think it is timely as a number of other | :24:59. | :25:02. | |
members have commented as wdll this week, given the sad passing of the | :25:03. | :25:08. | |
iconic David Bowie whose lyrics provide the backdrop to | :25:09. | :25:12. | |
generation 's childhood. And captured at the time of the Apollo | :25:13. | :25:16. | |
missions, the existential challenge and the opportunity of pushhng the | :25:17. | :25:21. | |
boundaries of space and timd. And culture, and that provides H think a | :25:22. | :25:25. | |
rather extraordinary and unpredictable backdrop this week to | :25:26. | :25:34. | |
this moment in space. I risd as a member of the coolest consthtuency | :25:35. | :25:39. | |
in the country, because Davhd Bowie played in my constituency, lived in | :25:40. | :25:43. | |
my constituency and we are hoping that the bandstand where he played | :25:44. | :25:46. | |
will be saved and restored properly but at the moment it is not being. | :25:47. | :25:55. | |
Well I'm very grateful and glad that the honourable member for Bdckenham | :25:56. | :26:00. | |
got to stand and speak. But I think, that this debate, and this story had | :26:01. | :26:05. | |
this discussion, is about something more, than simply, the spacd | :26:06. | :26:11. | |
endeavour on its own. It is about the business, ?11.8 billion, | :26:12. | :26:16. | |
employing 35,000 highly skilled people. It is about extraordinary | :26:17. | :26:20. | |
technology, communications, rocketry, engineering. I'm delighted | :26:21. | :26:26. | |
to confirm, it is about an `ctivist industrial policy, supporting | :26:27. | :26:33. | |
leading technologies. I do pay tribute to the work of Paul Tracy | :26:34. | :26:37. | |
and David Willetts in the other place, who was instrumental in | :26:38. | :26:41. | |
securing the ?80 million with a chance before the International | :26:42. | :26:44. | |
Space Station which was crucial to securing Tim Peake's roll and indeed | :26:45. | :26:49. | |
for securing the money for the reaction engines programme. It is | :26:50. | :26:54. | |
about science, not just in space, but solar and Earth science, | :26:55. | :27:02. | |
rocketry, engineering, optics, this is a deep science project to inspire | :27:03. | :27:05. | |
all. It is about women in science, Doctor Helen Sharman, the fhrst | :27:06. | :27:10. | |
British woman astronaut in space and of course the Italian, who was the | :27:11. | :27:17. | |
first woman, Holland Europe`n Space Agency, who did inspiring work and | :27:18. | :27:20. | |
has become something of a ldgend and a role model for girls and women in | :27:21. | :27:26. | |
science. It is also about otr perception and consciousness of our | :27:27. | :27:30. | |
environmental fragility, and that photo did indeed change perceptions | :27:31. | :27:33. | |
about the fragility of the darth's ecosystem. It is about geopolitics, | :27:34. | :27:39. | |
who could imagine, from those appallingly dark days of in | :27:40. | :27:46. | |
Continental ballistic missile threats, -- intercourse little | :27:47. | :27:49. | |
ballistic missile threats, we now have a space station with Alericans, | :27:50. | :27:51. | |
Russians, it is about definhng a new common space for all, and about a | :27:52. | :27:59. | |
new approach to our defence and security, through commonly the ship. | :28:00. | :28:04. | |
It is indeed I think, not a subject I get to speak much about, but | :28:05. | :28:09. | |
today's debate makes it possible. It is about mankind's destiny. | :28:10. | :28:16. | |
To imagine and explore and lake possible whole new worlds and | :28:17. | :28:23. | |
opportunities. I would just add this, it is also about the power of | :28:24. | :28:26. | |
ambitious, positive, global, oppose it, and global leadership. ,- | :28:27. | :28:37. | |
purposeful leadership. And get a better politics from us all. Nobody | :28:38. | :28:43. | |
spoke better to that than JFK in his inspiring inaugural address in 960 | :28:44. | :28:49. | |
when he famously asked, ask not my fellow Americans what America can do | :28:50. | :28:52. | |
for you but what you can do for America. In a moment that is | :28:53. | :28:59. | |
difficult to remember now, `t the height of the Cold War in W`shington | :29:00. | :29:02. | |
he embarked on a mission internationalism and two ye`rs | :29:03. | :29:10. | |
later, in his Apollo speech as other Members referenced, announcdd that | :29:11. | :29:13. | |
America chooses to go to thd moon not because it was easy but because | :29:14. | :29:18. | |
it was hard and in the spirht of internationalism and appealhng to | :29:19. | :29:22. | |
the best instincts of mankind. It is a beautiful thing that everx minute | :29:23. | :29:30. | |
and hour and day in space is in space, on the moon, mankind came to | :29:31. | :29:37. | |
the moon in a spirit of freddom and peace and it captures we want to | :29:38. | :29:41. | |
achieve with our society. It is for those reasons that the Primd | :29:42. | :29:45. | |
Minister asked that we harndss the power of Tim Peake's mission to | :29:46. | :29:50. | |
inspire the next generation of engineers and bring the country | :29:51. | :29:54. | |
together. We all found it dhfficult to avoid the excitement associated | :29:55. | :29:58. | |
with his launch, and the huge excitement of the first British | :29:59. | :30:03. | |
astronaut at the space stathon and that is why we held | :30:04. | :30:09. | |
Edinburgh, Cardiff, London, Belfast and at discoveries enters throughout | :30:10. | :30:13. | |
the UK and that parliament. The science Museum attracted allost | :30:14. | :30:19. | |
11,000 visitors, and if this year exhilaration of the 5000 plts | :30:20. | :30:21. | |
primary schoolchildren translate should into an increase in future | :30:22. | :30:28. | |
scientists then the mission will have already achieved its goal. 3.8 | :30:29. | :30:35. | |
million people watched his docking with the space station in the | :30:36. | :30:39. | |
evening. The Government will provide ?3 million of support to thd | :30:40. | :30:43. | |
education and engagement programme around the mission, and we have been | :30:44. | :30:48. | |
lauded as the country going most to promote that educational outreach. | :30:49. | :30:53. | |
We will measure whether the excitement does encourage young | :30:54. | :31:03. | |
people to take up temporary max subjects. This is the first such | :31:04. | :31:09. | |
study, research into the Apollo effect since the 70s. The Thm Peake | :31:10. | :31:13. | |
mission is possible because of a decision made at the 2012 Etropean | :31:14. | :31:19. | |
Space Agency Council meeting with David Willetts, and we joindd the | :31:20. | :31:25. | |
International Space Station and the related European programme for life | :31:26. | :31:30. | |
and physical sciences. We m`de a further investment in 2014. It was | :31:31. | :31:46. | |
in total over ?80 million which is substantially good value. It is a | :31:47. | :31:48. | |
testament to our investment in science. Tim Peake, and a Rtssian | :31:49. | :31:59. | |
commander. It is early days and assessments of our involvemdnt are | :32:00. | :32:10. | |
ongoing. Subsequent experimdnts undertaken on the space station are | :32:11. | :32:13. | |
undertaken on the basis of science excellence. This is a massive set of | :32:14. | :32:18. | |
international experiments in space. In the most | :32:19. | :32:24. | |
UK won over 10% of awards for experiments although UK involvement | :32:25. | :32:29. | |
in the space station is 5% of European costs, so we are ptnching | :32:30. | :32:37. | |
above our weight. 40-80 British scientists are involved. It is also | :32:38. | :32:43. | |
about infrastructure such as weather forecasting, satellite navigation | :32:44. | :32:48. | |
and television. Space technologies are used to tackle global | :32:49. | :32:53. | |
challenges. Satellites can tackle illegal fishing and safe | :32:54. | :33:03. | |
implementation of unmanned vehicles. Over half of the essential climate | :33:04. | :33:09. | |
variables needed to underst`nd climate change derived from | :33:10. | :33:12. | |
satellite observations. The UK space sector is undoubtedly a massive and | :33:13. | :33:16. | |
growing success story. Therd are real prospects for young people | :33:17. | :33:20. | |
inspired by Tim Peake and the Rosetta mission. We have a strong | :33:21. | :33:30. | |
and vibrant space economy. ?11. billion to the UK economy, `nd it is | :33:31. | :33:35. | |
growing at around 8% per ye`r, three times pasta than the averagd | :33:36. | :33:40. | |
non-finance sector. An incrddibly highly skilled workforce of 37, 00 | :33:41. | :33:45. | |
people, half of which have `t least a first degree. And in addition to | :33:46. | :33:50. | |
those jobs there are more than two for everyone in the wider economy. | :33:51. | :34:00. | |
It has a general value added higher than the UK average so refldcting | :34:01. | :34:07. | |
this importance to the UK, the Secretary of State for business | :34:08. | :34:09. | |
innovation and skills launched a national space policy on thd 13th of | :34:10. | :34:13. | |
December to coincide with the Tim Peake mission and it showcases how | :34:14. | :34:17. | |
deeply space now impacts on our daily lives, not least in s`tellite | :34:18. | :34:26. | |
information but it describes the way in which we deliver national | :34:27. | :34:30. | |
security and essential publhc services and prosperity and spells | :34:31. | :34:31. | |
out how the space agency has brought together the roles and | :34:32. | :34:38. | |
responsibilities of 17 organisations and other partners like resdarch | :34:39. | :34:43. | |
councils and Innovate UK. Space-based activity is a long-term | :34:44. | :34:50. | |
endeavour with international collaboration, industrial | :34:51. | :34:51. | |
investment, and considerabld planning at its heart. Stabhlity is | :34:52. | :34:58. | |
important and we are committed as a Government to seeing this through | :34:59. | :35:01. | |
and putting in place a policy landscape is a port investmdnt. Our | :35:02. | :35:05. | |
involvement in space in the UK ranges from fundamental | :35:06. | :35:11. | |
understandings of the universe to protecting our planet and stpporting | :35:12. | :35:17. | |
research which leads to UK companies launching entirely new multh-million | :35:18. | :35:20. | |
pounds telecommunication satellites. 25% of the world's telecommtnication | :35:21. | :35:25. | |
satellites are built in the UK substantially. Earth observ`tion | :35:26. | :35:35. | |
data was critical for example in the recent flooding. This is an exciting | :35:36. | :35:41. | |
time for space, in 2016 the UK will build the main experiment on the | :35:42. | :35:50. | |
Plato mission searching for new Earths orbiting stars. And we will | :35:51. | :35:55. | |
have contracts for a number of UK companies. We are also lookhng | :35:56. | :36:00. | |
meeting of the European Space Agency meeting | :36:01. | :36:04. | |
when we will negotiate to ensure that the UK plays an influential | :36:05. | :36:10. | |
part and fully benefits frol the European Space Agency progr`mmes. In | :36:11. | :36:14. | |
particular, the biomass expdriment which will calculate the capacity of | :36:15. | :36:19. | |
the world's forests to stord carbon. As well as improving our abhlity to | :36:20. | :36:24. | |
control climate change it also offers a considerable opportunity is | :36:25. | :36:29. | |
UK companies can win contracts to host the experiment. There will be a | :36:30. | :36:35. | |
joint UK and Japanese mission to mercury using an electric propulsion | :36:36. | :36:42. | |
engine manufactured by the TK firm Kinetic. And the UK has become a | :36:43. | :36:47. | |
satellites and cost-effective leader in the manufacture of small | :36:48. | :36:52. | |
satellites and cost-effective launches by piggybacking on other | :36:53. | :36:56. | |
satellites in a competitive market which is not yet sustainabld but | :36:57. | :37:00. | |
growing fast and it is conndcted to the growth of commercial | :37:01. | :37:04. | |
constellations of tens or even hundreds of mass produced s`tellites | :37:05. | :37:07. | |
which provide ubiquitous communications across the globe or | :37:08. | :37:12. | |
near real-time imagery from low Earth orbits. We believe colmercial | :37:13. | :37:17. | |
space flight is a market whhch when combined with the emerging trend for | :37:18. | :37:21. | |
large constellations of satdllites could provide a cumulative dconomic | :37:22. | :37:27. | |
benefit to the UK of ?20 billion by 2030. It will provide long-term | :37:28. | :37:32. | |
service and manufacturing jobs and stimulate high-tech growth. This | :37:33. | :37:35. | |
includes exciting developments the single stage to orbit l`unchers | :37:36. | :37:42. | |
which have been pioneered bx reaction engines, a rapidly growing | :37:43. | :37:47. | |
company in Oxfordshire. This is the context for the UK to explore launch | :37:48. | :37:51. | |
capability. There is at least a two stage process. The first part of the | :37:52. | :37:55. | |
ambition is for the UK to bdcome the European hub of commercial space | :37:56. | :38:01. | |
flight and related technologies The initial focus is on creating the | :38:02. | :38:09. | |
necessary framework to allow commercial suborbital space flight | :38:10. | :38:13. | |
alongside civilian and military airspace operations. Alongshde this | :38:14. | :38:17. | |
it is the Government intenthon to select the preferred location for a | :38:18. | :38:21. | |
UK spaceport to operate horhzontal commercial space planes. We are | :38:22. | :38:27. | |
closely examining what the process will look like to ensure th`t it is | :38:28. | :38:31. | |
fair, transparent and robust and we will draw on existing appro`ches to | :38:32. | :38:34. | |
appraisal and ensure that the preferred location meets kex | :38:35. | :38:40. | |
criteria. That it can delivdr a spaceport technically capable of | :38:41. | :38:44. | |
operating horizontal planes, and commercially viable, able to ensure | :38:45. | :38:50. | |
the safety of the uninvolved public, taking into account potenti`l | :38:51. | :38:53. | |
environmental impacts, and delivering local and nation`l | :38:54. | :38:56. | |
economic growth. These critdria are likely to form the core of `ny | :38:57. | :39:01. | |
selection process although we have not settled on final criterha. The | :39:02. | :39:08. | |
minister is outlining an exciting programme of opportunities `nd | :39:09. | :39:09. | |
economic from a number of Members today, the | :39:10. | :39:15. | |
need to encourage girls and young women to get involved in thd | :39:16. | :39:19. | |
to the Government benches and do to the Government benches and do | :39:20. | :39:21. | |
something practical about encouraging that? I certainly will. | :39:22. | :39:26. | |
There are a number initiative is in place but I have not had tile to go | :39:27. | :39:35. | |
through them. I was going to touch on some of the key point is that | :39:36. | :39:41. | |
honourable Members have madd. Developing a UK spaceport and | :39:42. | :39:45. | |
commercial suborbital operation are also crucial to building thd | :39:46. | :39:52. | |
capability for a UK launch of small satellites from the UK. I w`nted to | :39:53. | :39:59. | |
touch on some of the key pohnts that honourable Members have madd. I | :40:00. | :40:02. | |
wanted to congratulate the Lember for Central Ayrshire. Her | :40:03. | :40:05. | |
introductory speech was laid out beautifully. I was delighted that | :40:06. | :40:12. | |
she characterised me as a mhnister willing to go where no minister had | :40:13. | :40:17. | |
gone before. And the Ministdr for Bracknell was quick on this and has | :40:18. | :40:20. | |
been a leading advocate for the space committee and it is great to | :40:21. | :40:24. | |
see cross-party support for this project across the house. A number | :40:25. | :40:28. | |
of colleagues particular from importance of the Scottish cluster. | :40:29. | :40:35. | |
In this field as well as others Scotland does indeed have a powerful | :40:36. | :40:40. | |
cluster. Despite a number of very powerful bid is being made from | :40:41. | :40:45. | |
Scotland and Wales and Cornwall you would not expect me to pre-dmpt the | :40:46. | :40:50. | |
process of selecting sites, but I can assure honourable Members we | :40:51. | :40:54. | |
will be doing the process properly, fairly, openly and against proper | :40:55. | :40:59. | |
criteria and your bids have been heard loudly today. I wanted to | :41:00. | :41:04. | |
address key questions that have been raised. There was a question about | :41:05. | :41:08. | |
how strongly we prioritise this and I hope my comments setting out our | :41:09. | :41:12. | |
commitment and those commitlents set out in the space strategy rdcently | :41:13. | :41:16. | |
launched go some way to dealing with that issue. It is a question of | :41:17. | :41:21. | |
research funding. The Chancdllor announced the historic ring fenced | :41:22. | :41:24. | |
increased commitment to scidnce capital and revenue and the | :41:25. | :41:27. | |
Government is in the process now of working through with the research | :41:28. | :41:34. | |
councils how that funding whll be allocated to different projdcts and | :41:35. | :41:37. | |
we will shortly make announcements on how we see that being taken | :41:38. | :41:43. | |
forward. There were questions about growth and what we are doing to | :41:44. | :41:47. | |
ensure joined up strategies for this sector. We are working widely with | :41:48. | :41:52. | |
the industry to identify kex markets to deliver main growth. The space | :41:53. | :41:56. | |
leadership Council, jointly chaired with my right honourable frhend the | :41:57. | :42:01. | |
Minister for universities and science and for trade and space | :42:02. | :42:06. | |
Association, actively working together to develop policies. And | :42:07. | :42:11. | |
the blueprint for growth set out in the National space policy rdcently | :42:12. | :42:14. | |
published. Setting out a fr`mework that we intend to follow. Some | :42:15. | :42:21. | |
questions have been asked about the timing of the spaceport loc`tion, | :42:22. | :42:24. | |
and honourable Members know that this is an entirely new market which | :42:25. | :42:29. | |
is moving quickly but with complex issues to deal with around | :42:30. | :42:33. | |
regulations, the legal basis for safe flights, which we have to get | :42:34. | :42:37. | |
right. That work is ongoing at the moment and it is being taken | :42:38. | :42:41. | |
seriously and I hope my comlents have reassured Members and the | :42:42. | :42:47. | |
Government will announce how to proceed as soon as we can in 20 6. | :42:48. | :42:53. | |
The important questions abott space debris and regulation. It is | :42:54. | :42:57. | |
governed by the Outer space act and no licence is issued to operators of | :42:58. | :43:01. | |
space assets unless they can show they are compliant and save. | :43:02. | :43:07. | |
Minimising space debris is part of the process. Technical failtres | :43:08. | :43:11. | |
occur, but we do remain vighlant and we publish the spending revhew and | :43:12. | :43:14. | |
set up a cross governmental committee chaired by my right | :43:15. | :43:18. | |
honourable friend the Minister for science to further ensure space | :43:19. | :43:23. | |
security and in particular the issue of space debris. A number of | :43:24. | :43:28. | |
colleagues asked about caredrs in STEM and | :43:29. | :43:33. | |
million to support education programmes to help young people | :43:34. | :43:35. | |
benefit from the Tim Peake lission and we are reaching out to girls and | :43:36. | :43:37. | |
women is an important part of that. We are providing practical tools for | :43:38. | :43:50. | |
teachers and lecturers. There was a question about the University of | :43:51. | :43:54. | |
Glasgow and how the governmdnt is engaging with these cutting,edge | :43:55. | :44:00. | |
facilities, through the work of the science technology facilitids | :44:01. | :44:02. | |
Council and others, we are `ctively looking at how we can use those | :44:03. | :44:05. | |
research centres to support this project. The honourable member, has | :44:06. | :44:15. | |
described himself, as a stalker of mind because we are in the same | :44:16. | :44:18. | |
debates, made a powerful pltg for Ireland. I think the governlent | :44:19. | :44:27. | |
fully recognises the place of the Northern Ireland area, that is why | :44:28. | :44:30. | |
we held an event in Belfast around Tim Peake's launch. My honotrable | :44:31. | :44:37. | |
friend, the member for a bit of Cornwall, the precise bit of which | :44:38. | :44:42. | |
defies my memory right now, raised important issue of Newquay `irport, | :44:43. | :44:46. | |
and as the Prime Minister h`s said, he recognises the importancd of | :44:47. | :44:48. | |
Newquay in both this and thd wider Cornish economy, we will look at all | :44:49. | :44:55. | |
bits time. Adam Deputy Speaker there have been a lot of quotes, some more | :44:56. | :44:59. | |
original than others, in thhs morning 's debate, not least, a | :45:00. | :45:04. | |
number from David Bowie. I wanted just to close with one that we have | :45:05. | :45:10. | |
not heard. He said, in an occasional dream, he talked and sang of | :45:11. | :45:16. | |
tomorrow's, that we can be heroes for just one day. I think this | :45:17. | :45:22. | |
debate, this strategy, this subject, has captured a sense in which good | :45:23. | :45:26. | |
politics brings people together to achieve the very highest go`ls and | :45:27. | :45:33. | |
aims. I'm very grateful to colleagues for raising it, `nd very | :45:34. | :45:35. | |
pleased to be in the Departlent of business which is committed to | :45:36. | :45:39. | |
achieving everything that wd can in this very exciting race. Th`nk you | :45:40. | :45:47. | |
Madam Deputy Speaker, the rdason that we call this debate is to | :45:48. | :45:52. | |
celebrate Major Tim Peake, his mission had incredible work that he | :45:53. | :45:56. | |
is doing to engage children and young people. Many members have | :45:57. | :45:58. | |
spoken about the need in particular to engage girls. I don't thhnk there | :45:59. | :46:07. | |
is a clash on this, they ard people that we should be promoting | :46:08. | :46:11. | |
together. There is no fricthon between them, she has given her copy | :46:12. | :46:16. | |
of Yuri Gagarin's book to hhm, to take their as a souvenir. H`ving | :46:17. | :46:21. | |
spent 33 years in surgery, H know what it is like to be in a lan's | :46:22. | :46:26. | |
world, and I are being told formally in medical school that women could | :46:27. | :46:30. | |
not do surgery. We have comd a long way. We have heard from members of | :46:31. | :46:35. | |
all UK nations bidding for their site, and I think that is absolutely | :46:36. | :46:39. | |
right. We have also heard the incredible breadth of the industry, | :46:40. | :46:46. | |
and all of the things that we have not even thought about. I'm grateful | :46:47. | :46:49. | |
to hear from the Minister of the structure and licensing, I think | :46:50. | :46:52. | |
that is really important. I look forward to the day, when our hubs | :46:53. | :46:59. | |
are not called Aerospace, btt Aero -space. I expect that we will have | :47:00. | :47:04. | |
multiple of these clusters, and it may be that when the time comes we | :47:05. | :47:09. | |
need more than one spaceport, I have swum for tourism, one for stborbital | :47:10. | :47:14. | |
hyperbolic flights to Japan, or North America. And one for getting | :47:15. | :47:19. | |
satellites up, satellite th`t will end up being the size of yotr packed | :47:20. | :47:24. | |
lunch. I'm grateful for all of the members who took part, and what we | :47:25. | :47:29. | |
want to encourage our young people is simply to aim for the st`rs. The | :47:30. | :47:36. | |
question is as on the order paper, as many say a, and those saxing no. | :47:37. | :47:45. | |
I think the eyes have it. Wd now come to house of Lords reform, | :47:46. | :47:52. | |
and I call Malcolm Doherty to call it. I beg to move the motion in my | :47:53. | :48:00. | |
name. Not since 2011 when the then Deputy Prime Minister presented the | :48:01. | :48:05. | |
case for reform, has the opportunity being offered to members of the | :48:06. | :48:08. | |
House of Commons to debate `nd discuss the house of lords on the | :48:09. | :48:13. | |
floor of the house. I must before I proceed extend my grateful thanks to | :48:14. | :48:17. | |
the backbench business commhttee, and the honourable member for Harrow | :48:18. | :48:19. | |
East especially, for her sage advice East especially, for her sage advice | :48:20. | :48:27. | |
and agreeing, to my novice plead to the committee. During the gdneral | :48:28. | :48:31. | |
election, various Lords reforms were mentioned and it was critic`l, that | :48:32. | :48:36. | |
it was the government itself which in its manifesto, limited its vision | :48:37. | :48:40. | |
to addressing only the size of the house of lords. For clearly, size | :48:41. | :48:47. | |
matters to the Tory party. @t its present velocity of expansion, the | :48:48. | :48:51. | |
house of lords will soon exceed the National People's Congress of China. | :48:52. | :48:57. | |
It is already exceeding the size of the European Parliament, whhch is | :48:58. | :49:01. | |
elected by over 400 million European citizens. Clearly Parliament envy | :49:02. | :49:08. | |
will soon see even this house displaced by the expansionary | :49:09. | :49:10. | |
tactics of the Prime Ministdr. know Madam Deputy Speaker that at | :49:11. | :49:18. | |
the last general election, the British Labour Party, took ` more | :49:19. | :49:24. | |
pragmatic view. And I will give credit where credit is due hn | :49:25. | :49:27. | |
recognising the work undert`ken by the last Labour government, to limit | :49:28. | :49:33. | |
the hereditary peerage although work was sullied by the cash for honours | :49:34. | :49:39. | |
scandal uncovered by my colleague, and I do wonder where my labour | :49:40. | :49:44. | |
colleagues are today. I know that on these benches at least Madal Deputy | :49:45. | :49:48. | |
Speaker, we have spoken with one voice. The Scottish National party | :49:49. | :49:54. | |
at the general election, pl`ced a proposal before the entire community | :49:55. | :50:00. | |
of Scotland, abolish it! If this parliament is to work as an | :50:01. | :50:05. | |
effective and legitimate legislator, in the British state, its upper | :50:06. | :50:10. | |
chamber should resemble less the Congress of the commonest state and | :50:11. | :50:16. | |
maul the revising and advisory role of a parliament of the 21st century. | :50:17. | :50:26. | |
I will indeed give way to the honourable gentleman. Thank you very | :50:27. | :50:31. | |
much, I do agree with him whth regards to abolition, would he not | :50:32. | :50:35. | |
agree that the power of patronage Prime Minister to point people that | :50:36. | :50:39. | |
they choose to the house of Lords is even more pernicious than h`ving | :50:40. | :50:42. | |
the advantage of being independent? the advantage of being independent? | :50:43. | :50:49. | |
Don't worry, I will get there. Let us return Madam Deputy Speaker to | :50:50. | :50:53. | |
the hopes of many members of the house. I know, he shares with my | :50:54. | :51:00. | |
honourable friend you cannot be here today, that any future reform of the | :51:01. | :51:04. | |
upper chamber should not only consider its size, it should limit | :51:05. | :51:10. | |
it and remove with haste its ability as an unelected and unaccountable | :51:11. | :51:15. | |
chamber, to generate legisl`tion. This is an affront to my | :51:16. | :51:21. | |
constituents, and have orathon in the British critical system. Only a | :51:22. | :51:26. | |
few months ago, the governmdnt was keen to play down any reforl agenda. | :51:27. | :51:32. | |
Their latest antics, the honourable member of Tatton, as citizen | :51:33. | :51:38. | |
camembert rather than, the Chancellor, and the Prime Mhnister | :51:39. | :51:44. | |
playing the good cop. It is a farce if not a carry on, many would seek | :51:45. | :51:50. | |
long-term resolution to the undeniable legitimacy, at ldast has | :51:51. | :51:56. | |
viewed from this site, of the chamber in it present form. The | :51:57. | :52:02. | |
government tinkers at the edges with the Strathclyde review. A botched | :52:03. | :52:07. | |
job done in time for Christlas. While the review offers a w`y | :52:08. | :52:12. | |
forward, it seems to confusd the role of the House of Lords, is it a | :52:13. | :52:17. | |
mere stamp of government policy or is it a revising chamber th`t | :52:18. | :52:20. | |
tackles the government on the tough subjects of the day? All options | :52:21. | :52:28. | |
offer additional burden, crhtically Madam Deputy Speaker to the workings | :52:29. | :52:32. | |
of this house and highlights, the dialogue that is the Palace of | :52:33. | :52:36. | |
Westminster. If the report was at least linked in some way to working | :52:37. | :52:40. | |
and improvements of working practices such as electronic voting, | :52:41. | :52:45. | |
which would allow us in this place to deliberate more robust Lde and in | :52:46. | :52:51. | |
more depth, we would reduce, the course to statue instruments. It | :52:52. | :52:54. | |
would indeed have been a slhghtly more useful document, for the record | :52:55. | :52:59. | |
I do wish to say Madam Deputy Speaker that I commend Lord | :53:00. | :53:02. | |
Strathclyde and all of thosd involved in seeking to overcome the | :53:03. | :53:08. | |
governments obstacles. In rdality while this report is welcomd, it | :53:09. | :53:12. | |
highlights the Dickensian if not indeed medieval machinations and | :53:13. | :53:19. | |
dubious working practices of this Parliament. It accidentally shows | :53:20. | :53:24. | |
the Alice in Wonderland anthcs of the so-called Liberal democratic | :53:25. | :53:27. | |
practices of the mother of Parliaments. In reality, Madam | :53:28. | :53:31. | |
Deputy Speaker, if this revhew is worth the paper that it is written | :53:32. | :53:36. | |
on, it would be my hope and I believe of my honourable frhends, | :53:37. | :53:41. | |
that it would seek to uphold the nature of our poly hockey and at | :53:42. | :53:46. | |
least promote its first pillars Control over government dechsions | :53:47. | :53:52. | |
like policy should at all thmes constitutionally reinvested in | :53:53. | :53:56. | |
elected officials. That in those members of this house, elected by | :53:57. | :54:01. | |
their constituents from whol they derive, their political mandate I | :54:02. | :54:10. | |
thank my rubble friend for giving way and I congratulate him on | :54:11. | :54:11. | |
securing this debate and I `pologise that iCal stayed for the whole | :54:12. | :54:14. | |
thing, he speaks about the legislative powers of the mdmbers of | :54:15. | :54:17. | |
the house of lords, gusty agree that even more pernicious is the soft | :54:18. | :54:22. | |
power that is held by unelected members who can nevertheless spend | :54:23. | :54:24. | |
so much time on all-party groups, access to ministers, and all of the | :54:25. | :54:30. | |
other trappings that are not visible and not opened up to scrutiny by | :54:31. | :54:34. | |
watching what happens in thd live coverage of the chamber but | :54:35. | :54:38. | |
behind-the-scenes? I couldn't agree more with my honourable fridnd, the | :54:39. | :54:44. | |
member for Glasgow North. It is pernicious, the way that acts in | :54:45. | :54:48. | |
this Parliament. Sadly I believe that in this Parliament at least | :54:49. | :54:50. | |
Madam Deputy Speaker, aspiration and wilful changd is a | :54:51. | :54:57. | |
lost cause. Even that the Prime Minister appointed over the last | :54:58. | :55:04. | |
Parliament alone, 200 newly elected unaccountable members of thd | :55:05. | :55:07. | |
peerage, and in the short pdriod in which I had my honourable friends | :55:08. | :55:11. | |
have been returned to this house, a further 45. Appointees covering the | :55:12. | :55:18. | |
great and the so-called good, including of course, large-scale | :55:19. | :55:23. | |
donors to political parties, in the form of bigwigs in the county halls | :55:24. | :55:26. | |
of the length and breadth of the country. Of the peerage, let me turn | :55:27. | :55:34. | |
specifically to a certain group the archbishops and bishops of the | :55:35. | :55:37. | |
established church of England. And while much has been made of the | :55:38. | :55:44. | |
liking of their position to that of members of the Islamic Republic of | :55:45. | :55:51. | |
Iran, by direct challenge to them is this, they have no place on voting | :55:52. | :55:56. | |
on the Civic or religious lhfe of Scotland. I draw members attention | :55:57. | :56:04. | |
to the early day motion, by 52, submitted by my own hand and signed | :56:05. | :56:10. | |
by many of my rubble friends, from Scottish constituencies, whhch calls | :56:11. | :56:15. | |
on those Lords spiritual, to desist in their well-documented historical | :56:16. | :56:19. | |
interference in the affairs of the community of Scotland, sincd the | :56:20. | :56:25. | |
times of violate and noble king David. Their interference mtst end, | :56:26. | :56:34. | |
if this Parliament is to trtly reflect the broad Kerzhakov | :56:35. | :56:36. | |
representation and communithes of this political state. Let us turn | :56:37. | :56:42. | |
our days Madam Deputy Speakdr on the other members of the peeragd of the | :56:43. | :56:46. | |
realm, and yes I would admit, through gritted teeth, therd are a | :56:47. | :56:57. | |
few souls, that work hard. Xet as exposed by my honourable frhend the | :56:58. | :57:00. | |
member for Perth and North Perthshire, in a debate in | :57:01. | :57:03. | |
Westminster Hall only a year ago, we can see the limited work of so many | :57:04. | :57:07. | |
who stipulate that their position is to stand for Scotland, in the upper | :57:08. | :57:16. | |
chamber. And yes, the peerage has no constituency, we all recognhse that, | :57:17. | :57:21. | |
yet they themselves purport to ensure our constituents needs in | :57:22. | :57:26. | |
that unelected chamber. One prime example of those peers who have | :57:27. | :57:30. | |
given attendance and filled participation, a cursory gr`nts and | :57:31. | :57:38. | |
claimed substantial taxpayers money, for privileged access to thd bishops | :57:39. | :57:46. | |
bar. As by convention I will indeed. May ask the honourable gentleman and | :57:47. | :57:50. | |
his colleagues, where that xou would like to have a member of thd SNP in | :57:51. | :57:56. | |
the house of lords? Because I think it would be a good idea. For a good | :57:57. | :58:06. | |
laugh. But the answer is no Mac As by convention, Madam Deputy Speaker. | :58:07. | :58:16. | |
I will direct honourable frhends to acquaint themselves with a debate in | :58:17. | :58:19. | |
Westminster Hall held on thhs very day one year ago. The record of the | :58:20. | :58:32. | |
peerage is damning indeed. There is a lot of passion in his spedch but | :58:33. | :58:39. | |
it's a pity that his passion is not shared by the Labour benches. What | :58:40. | :58:45. | |
would he say to those who don't necessarily disagree with some of | :58:46. | :58:48. | |
what he is saying but nevertheless for whom this is a low priority I | :58:49. | :58:56. | |
am grateful for the intervention. Chrissie is never a low priority for | :58:57. | :59:01. | |
the Scottish National Party and that is why the people and the community | :59:02. | :59:05. | |
of Scotland returned my honourable friend is in such numbers. Would he | :59:06. | :59:15. | |
agree that there is very little democracy in the fact that those | :59:16. | :59:20. | |
rejected by the electorate can find themselves down the corridor from us | :59:21. | :59:29. | |
making law? I could not agrde more. The upper Chamber and its | :59:30. | :59:36. | |
shenanigans reflect more debauched Roman Senate than a functioning | :59:37. | :59:39. | |
parliamentary Chamber, bowing and scraping in which the modern world | :59:40. | :59:47. | |
is seen as an inconvenience. I have since my election to this house | :59:48. | :59:51. | |
visited the unelected and unaccountable Lord's and I took my | :59:52. | :59:59. | |
place in the House of Commons balcony, a lofty vantage pohnt | :00:00. | :00:06. | |
across which to view the gallery, and it seems... They firmly believe | :00:07. | :00:14. | |
that after four years it dods not get any worse. Four years of | :00:15. | :00:20. | |
accumulating dust, Madam Spdaker, is nothing compared to the acctmulation | :00:21. | :00:24. | |
of centuries of privilege and unaccountability. It must end. There | :00:25. | :00:31. | |
are those that will see this as nothing other than Celtic | :00:32. | :00:38. | |
hyperventilation against a conspiracy of anomalies, arrogance, | :00:39. | :00:46. | |
absurdity, Vanity and moralhty that poses... It is not simply a matter | :00:47. | :00:55. | |
of vanity, the Scottish Nathonal Party in 2005 had a democratic vote | :00:56. | :01:00. | |
never to accept seats in thd House of Lords to confirm a convention | :01:01. | :01:05. | |
since the 70s, at no point has it ever considered taking a | :01:06. | :01:10. | |
the unelected Chamber. I certainly agree with my honourable frhend and | :01:11. | :01:14. | |
as long as I'm a Member of the SNP that is where I will be sticking to, | :01:15. | :01:20. | |
no to seats in the unelected and unaccountable House of Lords. I | :01:21. | :01:27. | |
congratulate the Member of his very careful speech. He | :01:28. | :01:35. | |
clear about the SNP's posithon but his partners in this house `re Plaid | :01:36. | :01:38. | |
Cymru and they have Members in the other house. From a sedentary | :01:39. | :01:44. | |
position my honourable friend has given the answer, they don't have a | :01:45. | :01:49. | |
separate jurisdiction. That in itself is a disgrace and a grave | :01:50. | :01:54. | |
concern for my honourable friends in Plaid Cymru. This could be seen as | :01:55. | :02:00. | |
pure Celtic hyperventilation. the unaccountability of the House of | :02:01. | :02:07. | |
Lords. Yet there are Members from beyond the Celtic fringe, though I | :02:08. | :02:15. | |
do wonder where they are today, who find unelected and unaccountable | :02:16. | :02:20. | |
Members in the House of Lords and affronts to liberal democracy. - on | :02:21. | :02:30. | |
the front. There are some English people who do believe that we should | :02:31. | :02:34. | |
have won democratic Chamber and not another elected Chamber for | :02:35. | :02:43. | |
hereditary peers. I do of course count Cornwall as being on the | :02:44. | :02:47. | |
Celtic fringe. Any debate lhnking the Government, and I must say Her | :02:48. | :02:54. | |
Majesty 's opposition to sole of the most damning political incolpetence | :02:55. | :03:01. | |
is as highlighted in the last Parliament, filled even those hardy | :03:02. | :03:05. | |
souls with dread. Cash for honours sends a collective shiver down the | :03:06. | :03:11. | |
spine of this house. And indeed the Parliamentary system. I serhously | :03:12. | :03:14. | |
doubt that we have seen the last of it, not only in the upper Chamber, | :03:15. | :03:22. | |
even here. The appointment process exposes beyond doubt the prhvileges | :03:23. | :03:25. | |
of those Members of the House of Lords in reality, there is no | :03:26. | :03:32. | |
substitute for democracy and the direct election. | :03:33. | :03:42. | |
be able to join this speech at late notice. Does my honourable friend | :03:43. | :03:46. | |
agree with me that not only is this debate vital and it is a | :03:47. | :03:50. | |
disappointment that more Melbers are not here, but actually it is | :03:51. | :03:57. | |
perverse that we are about to reduce elected MPs, democratically elected | :03:58. | :04:03. | |
people in this Chamber down to 00 from 650 at the same time as the | :04:04. | :04:06. | |
House of Lords is increasing. I thank my honourable friend were | :04:07. | :04:12. | |
raising that important point. - for raising it. I am grateful that the | :04:13. | :04:16. | |
front bench of the opposition is here but where are the Liberal | :04:17. | :04:22. | |
Democrats? Great changes of the British constitution? They `re the | :04:23. | :04:30. | |
House of Lords! Is to the ftture, I wish to address my honourable | :04:31. | :04:35. | |
friend's question directly, one clear clarion call should go to the | :04:36. | :04:40. | |
British Labour Party, and the British Liberal party. No more | :04:41. | :04:47. | |
appointments. Enough! Stop! Renew here today your commitment to | :04:48. | :04:51. | |
reform, not piecemeal, not lacklustre, not fiddling with the | :04:52. | :04:59. | |
Parliamentary democracy when the state is sullied by the illdgitimacy | :05:00. | :05:03. | |
of the House of Lords. Be clear concise, no more Labour or Liberal | :05:04. | :05:10. | |
peers. Call the Government's Bluff, call the bluff of the unelected | :05:11. | :05:18. | |
unaccountable cronies. Join us in demanding an end to privilege and | :05:19. | :05:22. | |
patronage at the heart of Government. There will be Mdmbers | :05:23. | :05:27. | |
who will seek a resolution to this issue. One or two Chambers. I am | :05:28. | :05:43. | |
open to persuasion. For up by camel system. Although a unicamer`l | :05:44. | :05:49. | |
system, as evidence shows, hs no less a robust and decent system of | :05:50. | :05:58. | |
liberal democracy. I do recognise that if a two Chamber systel is to | :05:59. | :06:02. | |
exist, then let it be fully elected. Let it be representative of the | :06:03. | :06:09. | |
communities and nations of this political state, let it reflect the | :06:10. | :06:17. | |
lived experience of my constituents, for while I -- for while I `m no | :06:18. | :06:27. | |
unionist, I believe in the sovereign will of the community of Scotland, | :06:28. | :06:32. | |
if we should remain within this Place, my constituents have been | :06:33. | :06:38. | |
clear, change and soon. With the Prime Minister pointing mord peers | :06:39. | :06:41. | |
than Margaret Thatcher and Tony Blair and all before, I doubt the | :06:42. | :06:46. | |
change will come. And the consequences for Scotland and the | :06:47. | :06:52. | |
union are well-known. When tnelected and unaccountable peers of the realm | :06:53. | :06:57. | |
can stipulate the governancd of Scotland, while the evidencd and | :06:58. | :07:01. | |
proposals from its elected Lembers of the House of Commons are thrown | :07:02. | :07:08. | |
in the Thames. The case for the re-establishment of a soverdign | :07:09. | :07:14. | |
democratic and independent Scotland is made not by the Members of the | :07:15. | :07:18. | |
Scottish National Party but by that very apogee of the British state. It | :07:19. | :07:26. | |
would be easy and indeed it has been, for me to vent frustr`tion at | :07:27. | :07:32. | |
the pace of reform of the House of Lords. That's not enough. Today I | :07:33. | :07:38. | |
wear a tie. Just like every other day. Is deemed by convention in this | :07:39. | :07:46. | |
house. Today, this tie reprdsents, to me, hope for a more equal and | :07:47. | :07:57. | |
just society. One in which the pupils of bone Hill primary in the | :07:58. | :08:04. | |
Vale of Lieven, whose tie this is, should hope to live in. That hope, | :08:05. | :08:10. | |
should be placed in a Parli`ment that reflects them and their peers. | :08:11. | :08:17. | |
Not a Parliament in which oligarchs, cronies and chancers in an tpper | :08:18. | :08:24. | |
Chamber go about their business unelected and unaccountable. For, be | :08:25. | :08:31. | |
in no doubt, they will placd the hope, that hope, closer to their | :08:32. | :08:37. | |
experience and indeed their need at home, in Scotland. For sure they | :08:38. | :08:43. | |
know,... A higher rank than all of that. The | :08:44. | :09:04. | |
question is is on the order paper and there are nine Members wishing | :09:05. | :09:08. | |
to catch my eye before 4:30pm when I want to bring frontbenchers into | :09:09. | :09:13. | |
wind-up. That is ten minutes so if we can keep to ten minutes that | :09:14. | :09:20. | |
would be great. Thank you. H congratulate the honourable | :09:21. | :09:26. | |
gentleman for West Dunbartonshire on securing this speech and also for | :09:27. | :09:28. | |
his interesting and at times entertaining, and I think it's fair | :09:29. | :09:37. | |
to say angry speech, in fact quite a lot of which I agreed with. I would | :09:38. | :09:42. | |
actually sweep away the House of Lords. And replace it with `n almost | :09:43. | :09:50. | |
entirely elected Chamber. I accept the fact is my honourable friend in | :09:51. | :09:53. | |
his intervention made that ht's not exactly top of the charts rdgarding | :09:54. | :10:01. | |
our constituents and I have only got one particular constituent who | :10:02. | :10:07. | |
writes to me about this and other issues such as changes to the act of | :10:08. | :10:15. | |
settlement. I know he is an extremely assiduous constittency MP | :10:16. | :10:19. | |
and he probably spends most of his weekends knocking on doors to get | :10:20. | :10:24. | |
people's views. I wonder if he can recall the last time the constituent | :10:25. | :10:28. | |
on the doorstep badgered hil on the subject of the House of Lords | :10:29. | :10:31. | |
reform? I am struggling to remember the last time the constituent | :10:32. | :10:38. | |
troubled me on this matter. My honourable friend is right, I can't | :10:39. | :10:42. | |
recall anyone on the doorstdp raising this particular isste, even | :10:43. | :10:49. | |
at a time when it was being debated day in day out in this Chamber. The | :10:50. | :10:51. | |
fact that it is not on the public agenda suggests that it won't be on | :10:52. | :10:57. | |
the Government's agenda and of course it's not. It's the f`ct that | :10:58. | :11:01. | |
the public don't care a gre`t deal, that's an opportunity for the | :11:02. | :11:05. | |
Government to kick it into touch. Had I been here in the late 199 s | :11:06. | :11:10. | |
when Tony Blair was tinkering with the House of Lords and sweeping away | :11:11. | :11:17. | |
most of the hereditary peers, I would probably have an opposed to | :11:18. | :11:22. | |
that is a traditional conservative. They were doing no great harm, it | :11:23. | :11:26. | |
would appear to me, and if we are going to be ruled by unelected RDs I | :11:27. | :11:31. | |
would rather be ruled by an unelected House of Lords th`n an | :11:32. | :11:38. | |
unelected European Commission. The reality is that we can't go on as we | :11:39. | :11:43. | |
have been. There have been changes both significant and minor changes | :11:44. | :11:48. | |
to the Constitution over thd centuries, and we tended to muddle | :11:49. | :11:53. | |
along. And accept them. On the whole, I think we have evolved a | :11:54. | :11:58. | |
system which, with all of its faults, actually gives us a better | :11:59. | :12:03. | |
existence and a better life, and we existence and a better life, and we | :12:04. | :12:08. | |
are well governed. We have ` functioning and honest judicial | :12:09. | :12:11. | |
system and the like. We havd a lot to be thankful for in the w`y things | :12:12. | :12:19. | |
have evolved over the centuries Personally I would go for something | :12:20. | :12:26. | |
in the region of 90% elected upper house, a Senate as I would want to | :12:27. | :12:32. | |
call it. The honourable gentleman in his opening speech addressed the | :12:33. | :12:38. | |
issue of bishops and archbishops. Personally my remaining 10% of | :12:39. | :12:41. | |
unelected Members would go to faith leaders. Most significantly | :12:42. | :12:46. | |
Christian leaders, since we are a Christian nation. That would indeed | :12:47. | :12:53. | |
include representatives frol the Church of Scotland. I will happily | :12:54. | :13:06. | |
give way. As a practising Christian I am not comfortable as defhning any | :13:07. | :13:10. | |
nation as a Christian or Jewish or Islamic nation. Would it not be | :13:11. | :13:16. | |
correct to say that we are ` group of nations historically ruldd by | :13:17. | :13:19. | |
people who traditionally followed Christianity will stop and | :13:20. | :13:23. | |
actions were very far apart from the true teachings of Christ? | :13:24. | :13:28. | |
It is certainly true that wd are, I think it is fair to say, less | :13:29. | :13:39. | |
bragging Christians now, th`n in the past, -- practising Christi`ns, but | :13:40. | :13:45. | |
he rightly says it is our hdritage, a Christian nation, and the eternal | :13:46. | :13:51. | |
virtues that are taught by the Christian church are the basis of | :13:52. | :13:56. | |
our society. I will give wax. I thank you for giving way. The last | :13:57. | :14:02. | |
census gave 31% of the population saying they had no religion. And | :14:03. | :14:07. | |
they don't feel they would be represented by people of fahth. | :14:08. | :14:10. | |
Speaking as vice-chair of the Parliamentary humanist group, which | :14:11. | :14:15. | |
it not be fed to you represdnt humanists as well? I thank the | :14:16. | :14:20. | |
honourable gentleman for his intervention. Humanism was `lways | :14:21. | :14:27. | |
seem to be an absence of fahth, but that is a rather philosophical point | :14:28. | :14:30. | |
that we could debate endlessly and I would be happy to do that whth the | :14:31. | :14:33. | |
honourable gentleman at somd time. In moving the motion, the honourable | :14:34. | :14:40. | |
gentleman refers to a unicaleral system. I think it would be a | :14:41. | :14:45. | |
mistake to remove two a unipue panel system of one chamber. I wotld point | :14:46. | :14:50. | |
is almost a unicameral form of is almost a unicameral form of | :14:51. | :14:58. | |
assembly, but I will leave that I think perhaps to members on the | :14:59. | :15:05. | |
Scottish benches to... Sorrx, I ll would you like to intervene? | :15:06. | :15:12. | |
Although the Scottish Parli`ment does have a single chamber we have a | :15:13. | :15:17. | |
strong committee system, it is not a assembly, it is a parliament where | :15:18. | :15:21. | |
the government sets. I thank the honourable lady with the | :15:22. | :15:24. | |
intervention was that in essence, I think it is becoming, it is there to | :15:25. | :15:29. | |
say, almost a unicameral nation It is often said that we benefht from | :15:30. | :15:37. | |
the expertise of experts, m`ny of them ex-experts, | :15:38. | :15:44. | |
corridor with a great deal of expertise and a lots to offdr to | :15:45. | :15:48. | |
society. But that does not necessarily mean that they should be | :15:49. | :15:52. | |
members of the legislator, `nd governments over the years have | :15:53. | :15:57. | |
found ways of including all sorts of people who they want to bring into | :15:58. | :16:03. | |
the process of governance, by establishing royal commissions, | :16:04. | :16:07. | |
enquiries, committees etc. Ht would be perfectly possible to get eminent | :16:08. | :16:15. | |
lawyers, scientists, doctors into some sort of group that | :16:16. | :16:20. | |
provide the expertise that those of us in this chamber certainlx need. | :16:21. | :16:25. | |
On that point, I am glad th`t he has read the public experts, I think | :16:26. | :16:32. | |
that the public think of thd upper house as a has an expert. Some of | :16:33. | :16:37. | |
them are, but there is nothhng more ex-than an ex-expert, which give | :16:38. | :16:43. | |
some support in to the idea advancing, but does he not | :16:44. | :16:52. | |
avoid this phenomenon and wd should put a limit on the number of years | :16:53. | :16:56. | |
that Pierce served? Thank you my honourable friend for my | :16:57. | :17:00. | |
intervention, and if we werd to continue with a predominantly | :17:01. | :17:04. | |
appointed house, it would bd desirable. The thing about these | :17:05. | :17:12. | |
expert is they tend to be London's scented experts. You couldn't be a | :17:13. | :17:18. | |
expert scientist or whatever, the reality is you are far more likely | :17:19. | :17:24. | |
to be appointed to the housd than if you are an expert for Cleethorpes. I | :17:25. | :17:32. | |
was privileged few years to attend the swearing in of the leaddr of | :17:33. | :17:39. | |
Northamptonshire Council, p`rt of my constituency, deep baroness Redfearn | :17:40. | :17:50. | |
as she now is, she has roots deep in the zone of north Lincolnshhre that | :17:51. | :17:55. | |
she is from. The reality is such as the noble lady are few and far | :17:56. | :18:01. | |
between, and it is a very metropolitan gathering. It hs often | :18:02. | :18:07. | |
said, if there are two elected houses, there would be a power grab | :18:08. | :18:12. | |
by the one house against thd other, and I think one of the mist`kes we | :18:13. | :18:15. | |
have made in the legislation that came forward three or four xears ago | :18:16. | :18:21. | |
was the fact that we were s`ying oh the powers of the upper house have | :18:22. | :18:25. | |
stayed pretty much the same. That is fine, but I do think that it | :18:26. | :18:30. | |
actually should be laid down in statute if we were to move hn the | :18:31. | :18:35. | |
direction that we I suggesthng. Other governments have two dlected | :18:36. | :18:43. | |
chambers and rub along reasonably well without constant power grabs by | :18:44. | :18:45. | |
one or the other, and I think it is important that the lower hotse of | :18:46. | :18:50. | |
cores would still be retainhng power over financial matters will stop. | :18:51. | :18:58. | |
What I do think it is important is that any conflict between the houses | :18:59. | :19:02. | |
should not be passed over to the Judiciary Committee and I think it | :19:03. | :19:06. | |
should be had laid down cle`rly in any statute will stop as I said in | :19:07. | :19:12. | |
my response to an honourabld friend, whether it is an appointed or | :19:13. | :19:15. | |
elected house, there should be time limits. It was proposed 15 xears, in | :19:16. | :19:25. | |
the bill put forward by the then Deputy Prime Minister. That was | :19:26. | :19:31. | |
hatched to long. -- perhaps too long. Those party people wotld | :19:32. | :19:39. | |
actually have the independence necessary for an upper housd. I give | :19:40. | :19:45. | |
way. I seem to remember in the proposed legislation, Madam Deputy | :19:46. | :19:50. | |
Speaker, in the last Parlialent that the elected members of the | :19:51. | :19:56. | |
house of lords would be elected by huge electorates, huge electorates, | :19:57. | :20:01. | |
three or 4 million, and then inevitably at some stage those | :20:02. | :20:06. | |
people elected under that sxstem would say, well, I had 2 million | :20:07. | :20:13. | |
people voting for me. And you've got a proxy 60 6000. Whose mand`te is | :20:14. | :20:23. | |
more important? That was ond of the problems I had with the proposed | :20:24. | :20:28. | |
legislation in the last Parliament. I thank my honourable friend for his | :20:29. | :20:29. | |
intervention. not happy with that part of the | :20:30. | :20:40. | |
proposal that were brought forward. I am an advocate for first past the | :20:41. | :20:45. | |
post when it comes to an eldction for this house, but I will | :20:46. | :20:49. | |
acknowledge that perhaps sole port of proportional recommendathon would | :20:50. | :20:54. | |
be more appropriate for an tpper elected house. Having said that we | :20:55. | :20:58. | |
must accept the fact that pdople don't identify with massive areas | :20:59. | :21:01. | |
such as my honourable friend refers to, regions. People tend to identify | :21:02. | :21:06. | |
with their own town their county, as well as thdir | :21:07. | :21:13. | |
country. We need to devise ` system that recognises that those hnnate | :21:14. | :21:20. | |
loyalties of people exist. Hn closing, Madam Deputy Speakdr, I | :21:21. | :21:23. | |
would urge the government is not to tinker, as we will be doing with the | :21:24. | :21:30. | |
Strathclyde proposal, which I'm not particularly enthusiastic about | :21:31. | :21:35. | |
what I say to the government is go for it. I would rather have a | :21:36. | :21:42. | |
Conservative government reform the house of lords. Conservativds are | :21:43. | :21:50. | |
those of recognising the value of evolution during the Constitution, | :21:51. | :21:52. | |
and don't want to go for sole Big Bang change. We have an opportunity | :21:53. | :21:59. | |
now think carefully about it over the next year or two, put forward | :22:00. | :22:00. | |
serious proposals, recognisd the fact that an appointed housd, an | :22:01. | :22:08. | |
unelected assembly, is not acceptable in the 21st centtry, and | :22:09. | :22:17. | |
it is nine time to think about it should be a Conservative government | :22:18. | :22:23. | |
that puts four 's proposals -- forwards puzzles, and I hopd to hear | :22:24. | :22:27. | |
some dramatic proposals at the end of this debate. Madame liberties | :22:28. | :22:33. | |
bigger it is a pleasure to have the opportunity to speak on the house of | :22:34. | :22:38. | |
lords. I would like to start by promoting a | :22:39. | :22:46. | |
leader of the Labour Party. And upper house is an irresponshble part | :22:47. | :22:52. | |
of legislate the dollar and represents the only sentiments of | :22:53. | :23:05. | |
that Labour... He made up that statement and that was an 1807. | :23:06. | :23:17. | |
Westminster rushes to reforl! It was defeated, although it was p`rt of a | :23:18. | :23:21. | |
national debate at that timd, and in 19 oh 11 -- 1911. It made the | :23:22. | :23:29. | |
supremacy of the elected ch`mber over the unelected chamber | :23:30. | :23:34. | |
absolutely clear beyond doubt, and that shows we must go furthdr. I | :23:35. | :23:39. | |
content we need radical change to the constitution, it is overdue and | :23:40. | :23:45. | |
there is no place for this bloated chamber, for cronies and pl`cement | :23:46. | :23:49. | |
in the modern day. It is 104 years since that Parliament act and I ask | :23:50. | :23:57. | |
for democracy in all that wd do here. That means we have two move to | :23:58. | :24:01. | |
an elected second chamber, `nd an abolishment of what we had. We must | :24:02. | :24:12. | |
bring that government into 21st-century standards of | :24:13. | :24:15. | |
credibility, in the developlent world, as we are all part of. The | :24:16. | :24:22. | |
Tory government in 2016 comlitted to protection of the unelected house. | :24:23. | :24:36. | |
All efforts to stymie and dhssuade this progress are due to thd | :24:37. | :24:42. | |
previous governments and thdir expertise in stymieing things. It is | :24:43. | :24:50. | |
already a bloated place and we are not content apparently that we have | :24:51. | :24:56. | |
the second largest non-elected chamber of the world. We want to | :24:57. | :25:00. | |
show the world that when it comes to unelected government, nobodx does it | :25:01. | :25:07. | |
better than the UK. 26 on the side of the government were put hnto the | :25:08. | :25:15. | |
House of Lords last year, and it is not important as the bomb attack may | :25:16. | :25:24. | |
state. -- impotent. As the Parliamentary act may state. 92 of | :25:25. | :25:32. | |
the unelected peers have thdir seat for the entire lives simply by being | :25:33. | :25:38. | |
born. I am grateful for him giving way. On which note, a small clique | :25:39. | :25:43. | |
in Downing Street gets to ddtermine who sits in the Lords. Does he | :25:44. | :25:48. | |
therefore agreed that this gives rise to fundamental unfairndss, no | :25:49. | :25:50. | |
correlation between number of votes cast and the opposition of the | :25:51. | :25:55. | |
chamber, meaning that it is possible to get an election in 4 million | :25:56. | :25:59. | |
votes, and get zero peers. That is unfair? I understand his pohnt but I | :26:00. | :26:06. | |
think we must move to democracy This | :26:07. | :26:10. | |
ridiculous. It is disgraceftl in this day and age. I will waht. I am | :26:11. | :26:19. | |
noting his comments on appohntees but the appointment ought to be made | :26:20. | :26:24. | |
by people elected. Would yot not agree with me that the people | :26:25. | :26:31. | |
overseas' concern, it in developing democracies, that we hear in other | :26:32. | :26:38. | |
parliaments, we have members of the House of Lords who are hereditary | :26:39. | :26:42. | |
peers, and what I have the greatest of affection and admiration for many | :26:43. | :26:45. | |
of those people individuallx, and they give great service, it is | :26:46. | :26:49. | |
rather a difficult thing to explain to people in other countries who are | :26:50. | :26:53. | |
growing their democracies and look to the United Kingdom for a lead? He | :26:54. | :27:00. | |
makes a very good point, and it points towards democracy. Those | :27:01. | :27:05. | |
hereditaries pays stick in the core of many, and we should have election | :27:06. | :27:09. | |
to determine that, we should have a conversation about how we do not | :27:10. | :27:19. | |
whether should do it. Indeed, yes. I thank the Deputy Speaker for | :27:20. | :27:24. | |
allowing me to intervene and my honourable friend for giving away. I | :27:25. | :27:32. | |
actually support the idea of you get having a member in the Housd of | :27:33. | :27:37. | |
Lords, and I think it is sad that Ukip do not. I think it might give | :27:38. | :27:45. | |
the honourable gentleman and a seven at the pleasure if his first name | :27:46. | :27:50. | |
was Nigel. I will let the honourable gentleman speak for himself on that. | :27:51. | :28:01. | |
I believe in representation of people that vote. That is what I | :28:02. | :28:03. | |
believe in terms of democracy. Let's consider the curiouslx named | :28:04. | :28:20. | |
Liberal Democrats. They werd hammered, and not before tile, many | :28:21. | :28:26. | |
of us would say, first in Scotland at the Scottish Parliament dlections | :28:27. | :28:29. | |
in 2011 when they were reduced to a in 2011 when they were reduced to a | :28:30. | :28:34. | |
rump of just five NFPs and ht was followed up in the General Dlection | :28:35. | :28:37. | |
last year when they were reduced to just eight out of 650. In | :28:38. | :28:42. | |
democracies, the people havd spoken, the message is sent and that is | :28:43. | :28:46. | |
democracy, except that is not the end of the story. Because they defy | :28:47. | :28:50. | |
democracy thanks to the House of Lords. There is an incredible 1 1 of | :28:51. | :28:57. | |
them are along the corridor, either sleeping or sitting on thosd | :28:58. | :29:04. | |
benches, collecting their t`x-free status and maybe even voting | :29:05. | :29:07. | |
occasionally. Down that corridor, unelected and unaccountable. | :29:08. | :29:13. | |
Westminster's on political zombies, Mr Deputy Speaker, and we h`ve to | :29:14. | :29:17. | |
move forward. They are not dlected and the people's view must be | :29:18. | :29:20. | |
paramount. Some will see thd House of Lords provides access to | :29:21. | :29:24. | |
expertise not found among MPs in the House of Commons and whilst I | :29:25. | :29:29. | |
acknowledge, having met somd, Lords who certainly have expertisd, there | :29:30. | :29:34. | |
are many honourable people hn this place and it cannot be beyond this | :29:35. | :29:42. | |
place to find experts. I th`nk him for giving way. It would be hard to | :29:43. | :29:48. | |
find an advisory body will with expertise. They have legisl`tive | :29:49. | :29:52. | |
power and that is the difference. I think there are a number of things | :29:53. | :29:55. | |
we can do comedy is certainly right, and that is one. One of the many | :29:56. | :30:01. | |
problems is it is stuffed to the gunwales with politicians who have | :30:02. | :30:03. | |
failed to win nonetheless looked after by the | :30:04. | :30:15. | |
powers that be -- and he is certainly right. Having dond the job | :30:16. | :30:21. | |
as MP in Stirling, the MP w`s chosen to serve the constituency btt has | :30:22. | :30:24. | |
now spent seven years in thd unelected chamber down the corridor | :30:25. | :30:28. | |
so there is a fundamental problem I think that illustrates the `nd there | :30:29. | :30:29. | |
is a big list of former MPs pasture at the end of the corridor. | :30:30. | :30:40. | |
Jeremy Purvis, for example. His inestimable stature. Then there are | :30:41. | :30:45. | |
those picked at random, presumably, perhaps for saying the right things | :30:46. | :30:49. | |
at the right time to help a party in Government or... I will givd way. I | :30:50. | :30:54. | |
thank the honourable gentlelan for giving way. He makes very trenchant | :30:55. | :30:59. | |
criticisms of the other place, a number of which I agree with. Will | :31:00. | :31:05. | |
he accept that in the interdst of evenhandedness, the House of Lords | :31:06. | :31:09. | |
does do some good work and we do some effective work in holdhng the | :31:10. | :31:13. | |
Government to account and from time to time make very principled stance, | :31:14. | :31:21. | |
like on tax credits? I would say the honourable gentleman, even ` broken | :31:22. | :31:23. | |
clock is correct twice a dax. It doesn't mean you do not need a new | :31:24. | :31:27. | |
clock. I will move on to Margaret Thatcher just for him. She once said | :31:28. | :31:32. | |
at the end of her term as Prime Minister, I calculate I was | :31:33. | :31:36. | |
responsible for proposing the elevation to the Lords of some 14 | :31:37. | :31:40. | |
of its present numbers. My problem is that some of them are sthll | :31:41. | :31:46. | |
there, undoubtedly, after all this time, unelected spectres interfering | :31:47. | :31:49. | |
in legislation to this very day and that is the serious point hdre. | :31:50. | :31:55. | |
These people have legislative authority. Over the lives of | :31:56. | :31:59. | |
millions of people across the UK and no democratic mandate whatsoever. | :32:00. | :32:04. | |
Radical democratic reform or outright abolition of this tired, | :32:05. | :32:07. | |
antiquated and undemocratic institution is necessary and long | :32:08. | :32:12. | |
overdue. A successful reforl passed in ink just like that, the reform | :32:13. | :32:17. | |
must represent the necessarx change to bring our democracy kickhng and | :32:18. | :32:24. | |
screaming into the 21st-century -- just like the reform passed in 911, | :32:25. | :32:32. | |
this reform... I welcome thd member from Dunbartonshire for sectring | :32:33. | :32:36. | |
this most overdue of debates on reforms of the House of Lords. | :32:37. | :32:43. | |
Hyperbole, you may say that is what it is for some, but for othdrs you | :32:44. | :32:47. | |
could see it is passion to lend what is wrong. Membership is fast | :32:48. | :32:51. | |
approaching 1000 members. Wd have also heard it is the second largest | :32:52. | :32:56. | |
chamber on earth, it second only to China, but it is worth remelbering | :32:57. | :33:00. | |
China has a population 28 thmes that of the UK. Of course, not one of the | :33:01. | :33:05. | |
thousand peers in the other place is elected by the public though some of | :33:06. | :33:09. | |
them are elected by their pders which is interesting. The House of | :33:10. | :33:13. | |
Lords is in no way reflective of the political views of the people and | :33:14. | :33:17. | |
neither is it reflective of society in general. Over three quarters or | :33:18. | :33:24. | |
mail, over half is over 70 xears of age -- male. I was going to try to | :33:25. | :33:28. | |
seats guaranteed for Bishops of the far too difficult and would get into | :33:29. | :33:35. | |
seats guaranteed for Bishops of the Church of England, as we he`rd, but | :33:36. | :33:39. | |
not for Wales or Scotland, let alone any other faith. Madam Speaker, does | :33:40. | :33:43. | |
the Government consider a non-Christian to be less of a | :33:44. | :33:47. | |
citizen of the UK than a Christian? I would certainly hope the `nswer is | :33:48. | :33:51. | |
no but the existence of the House of Lords in its present form would | :33:52. | :33:55. | |
suggest otherwise and also provides evidence for that. It also `stounded | :33:56. | :33:58. | |
me to learn the fudged compromise whereby 92 accepted heredit`ry peers | :33:59. | :34:03. | |
who survived the colour of maintaining they won not only | :34:04. | :34:07. | |
continued to attend the House and influence the democracy of the UK, | :34:08. | :34:11. | |
but they are replaced by yet more hereditary peers in in-housd | :34:12. | :34:15. | |
elections. I thought they wdre a deal that would gradually dhsappear, | :34:16. | :34:21. | |
but it is self-perpetuating. The evident injustice of having people | :34:22. | :34:27. | |
there because they were born into it is perpetuating itself. The House of | :34:28. | :34:30. | |
Lords is crying out for reform. Plaid Cymru sees no place for this | :34:31. | :34:35. | |
in a modern democracy. Nonetheless, for as long as decisions ard | :34:36. | :34:39. | |
affecting Wales will continte to be made their Plaid Cymru will push for | :34:40. | :34:43. | |
Wales to have an equal voicd in that chamber. After all, we are `s | :34:44. | :34:50. | |
Scotland. Wales has no separate jurisdiction and that has bden the | :34:51. | :34:52. | |
case since 1536. I will givd way, of course. 1536, and 1542, yes, but | :34:53. | :35:00. | |
what on earth does that havd to do with membership of the Housd of | :35:01. | :35:02. | |
Lords?, on! Because they Wales, the House of Lords, `nd we | :35:03. | :35:14. | |
must address that -- Com. Things have changed since 1999 and the | :35:15. | :35:24. | |
masons this string. -- Come on. We need to make sure Wales is heard on | :35:25. | :35:28. | |
Government to account but I remain the apparent freedom of | :35:29. | :35:33. | |
Government to account but I remain those who hold that view th`t over | :35:34. | :35:38. | |
70% of peers vote on party lines and 25% of thought since beginnhng to | :35:39. | :35:41. | |
seven, former MPs, have either resigned or been voted out since the | :35:42. | :35:49. | |
public. -- since 1997. I appreciate many in the other place are | :35:50. | :35:52. | |
considered experts in their field, but we have heard mention of the | :35:53. | :35:56. | |
ex-experts and I do not accdpt this as an ardent against democr`cy. If | :35:57. | :36:00. | |
indeed those experts are experts today and not, as it were, 20 years | :36:01. | :36:05. | |
ago, and if that is the casd they should be persuaded to stand for | :36:06. | :36:09. | |
office in a public collection. I would also suggest the Housd take | :36:10. | :36:12. | |
note of figures from the eldctoral reforms society that phone 25% of | :36:13. | :36:17. | |
peers have representational politics as they remain profession prior to | :36:18. | :36:22. | |
entering the Lords -- found that 25%. Twice as many peers worked as | :36:23. | :36:27. | |
staff to the Royal household than in manual labour. Twice as manx. That | :36:28. | :36:34. | |
is extraordinary compared to what is for much the part of most pdople's | :36:35. | :36:43. | |
lives. I will give way. I al listening very intently and actually | :36:44. | :36:45. | |
enjoying this debate a great deal because so much I agree with. Could | :36:46. | :36:51. | |
I ask the honourable lady, through the chair, of course, whethdr she | :36:52. | :36:55. | |
would ever think it would bd a good idea for sections of societx, | :36:56. | :37:01. | |
doctors, teachers, dustbin len, if that is the right time thesd days, | :37:02. | :37:07. | |
nurses, to actually have a section of members of the House of Lords to | :37:08. | :37:12. | |
which they actually appoint, so they decide who should represent them in | :37:13. | :37:16. | |
the House of Lords, is that an idea you might even consider? Th`t is | :37:17. | :37:23. | |
something we will need to consider in detail but we do expect to be | :37:24. | :37:27. | |
looking to see whether thesd representative bodies actually do | :37:28. | :37:29. | |
represent society and we should judge them on that effect. The | :37:30. | :37:34. | |
return, the House of Lords hs not Oracle of all-encompassing knowledge | :37:35. | :37:38. | |
many would have us believe `nd I would remind the House that while | :37:39. | :37:43. | |
the houses of parliament, which includes almost 1000 Lords `nd, at | :37:44. | :37:46. | |
present, 650 MPs although it is interesting that while the panic | :37:47. | :37:51. | |
that goes up the MPs go down. The Welsh Parliament, responsible for | :37:52. | :37:55. | |
the NHS, education, economical development and other vital field in | :37:56. | :38:03. | |
Wales, has only 60 AMs, and once you discount Welsh Government mhnisters | :38:04. | :38:08. | |
and others, only 42 of thosd AMs are available to hold the Welsh | :38:09. | :38:11. | |
Government to account and scrutinise legislation. -- it is interdsting | :38:12. | :38:18. | |
that while the Lords numbers go up, MPs go down. 42 members in Wales, | :38:19. | :38:32. | |
while the NHS in England, sorry the House of Lords in England h`s an | :38:33. | :38:34. | |
excess of 1500 MPs and peers holding the UK Government to account on its | :38:35. | :38:39. | |
performance, so I suggest to the house is proportionally elected | :38:40. | :38:42. | |
second chamber with a drasthcally reduced number of peers coupled with | :38:43. | :38:45. | |
an increase in the size of the Welsh Parliament would make the UK is far | :38:46. | :38:49. | |
more modern, balanced and effective democracy. This debate has hndeed | :38:50. | :38:53. | |
shone a light on that long overdue need to reform but it is now up to | :38:54. | :38:57. | |
the Government to bring forward proposals to ensure | :38:58. | :39:02. | |
appears to modern standards and reflect society and its views. - | :39:03. | :39:11. | |
and reflects. In particular, I most enjoyed the speech by the honourable | :39:12. | :39:16. | |
member for West Martin sure which was very entertaining, but `lso very | :39:17. | :39:23. | |
serious -- West Dunbartonshhre. The House of Lords has of coursd been in | :39:24. | :39:27. | |
the news again recently and the Government is clearly threatening | :39:28. | :39:34. | |
change to rein in it legiblx noble colleagues. It has even been | :39:35. | :39:38. | |
suggested Conservative peers were not entirely happy with what the | :39:39. | :39:41. | |
Government wants to do but ly interest is begin today is to argue | :39:42. | :39:50. | |
for a unilateral Parliament and I would | :39:51. | :39:50. | |
legislatures across the world and unicameral. -- unicameral. H would | :39:51. | :39:57. | |
hope we should at least discuss that possibility. And I hope movds | :39:58. | :40:00. | |
towards it in time. When I first entered this House in 1997, the new | :40:01. | :40:06. | |
Labour Government, and I emphasise that, established the Royal | :40:07. | :40:11. | |
Commission for possible reform of the House of Lords. Into my time | :40:12. | :40:17. | |
here, shortly into it, I attended a policy meeting and I am surd my | :40:18. | :40:23. | |
speaker, would understand what speaker, would understand what | :40:24. | :40:28. | |
regional policy forums are `like. This was in Watford on Saturday | :40:29. | :40:33. | |
afternoon with around 30, 40 party members attending. Each had been | :40:34. | :40:36. | |
allocated by the party machhne but we were addressed by a learn it | :40:37. | :40:40. | |
professor from the Royal Colmission. In terms of reference set down by | :40:41. | :40:45. | |
the Government, there was no mac mention of abolition of the House of | :40:46. | :40:48. | |
Lords as a possible option so I asked why this was -- no mention. | :40:49. | :40:54. | |
Another member at the meeting then suggested we should have a show of | :40:55. | :40:58. | |
hands to test opinion to sed how many members at the meeting | :40:59. | :41:01. | |
favourite abolition, an innocent little test of opinion. At this the | :41:02. | :41:06. | |
chair became very agitated `nd said, isolate, there will be no votes | :41:07. | :41:13. | |
They did not want even a show of hands in Watford on Saturdax | :41:14. | :41:18. | |
afternoon, when it was rainhng outside, no doubt, to express in | :41:19. | :41:23. | |
majority view that we should abolish the House of Lords -- icily. I | :41:24. | :41:27. | |
suspect at the moment that there was probably a majority in that room for | :41:28. | :41:31. | |
abolition but it was not to be discussed. It was clear over leaders | :41:32. | :41:38. | |
wanted to keep the Lords in some form and discussing possibld | :41:39. | :41:45. | |
abolition was not to be toldrated. Abolition is still not being | :41:46. | :41:49. | |
discussed despite things en`cted by the Blair Government. Some | :41:50. | :41:52. | |
long-standing members may rdcall the debate on reform in this Hotse and a | :41:53. | :41:56. | |
series of votes on possible alternatives which took place in | :41:57. | :42:01. | |
March, 2007. One did effecthvely permit a test of opinion on the | :42:02. | :42:08. | |
possible abolition. Of Labotr backbenchers, 169 honourabld friend | :42:09. | :42:14. | |
's voted for a bicameral parliament but 155 us voted against, for a | :42:15. | :42:17. | |
unicameral parliament of the Lords. With almost h`lf of | :42:18. | :42:23. | |
the Labour backbenchers there was a substantial body of support for a | :42:24. | :42:28. | |
unicameral parliament. The fact this option was deliberately excluded | :42:29. | :42:30. | |
from consideration by the e`rly commission was, I think, a political | :42:31. | :42:35. | |
fix. I put down an early dax motion to this effect at the time which | :42:36. | :42:40. | |
received the support of 50 Labour members, some 14 of whom ard still | :42:41. | :42:45. | |
members of the House today. It was clear the simple case was the Prime | :42:46. | :42:49. | |
Minister at the time wished to retain his power of patronage to | :42:50. | :42:52. | |
appoint members to the Lords and for a number of possible reasons, I may | :42:53. | :42:58. | |
say subsequent to that therd were many who argued for a strong House | :42:59. | :43:02. | |
of Lords and to keep it in proportion even if it becamd | :43:03. | :43:05. | |
democratic, for appointment. One of the reasons why this was was to be | :43:06. | :43:12. | |
able to offer members of thhs House the prospect of elevation to the | :43:13. | :43:16. | |
Lords. Both as a way of keeping control and diminishing the | :43:17. | :43:19. | |
potential for rebellion in the Commons and possibly to help | :43:20. | :43:23. | |
persuade older members with safe seats to retire at a convenhent time | :43:24. | :43:27. | |
for the party machine to slot in leadership supporters into those | :43:28. | :43:30. | |
safe seats. ... Yes, I will give way. | :43:31. | :43:34. | |
I don't know the honourable member members instance in Scotland where | :43:35. | :43:40. | |
the Kingdom of Fife was range is from five Parliamentary | :43:41. | :43:43. | |
constituencies to four. Member at that time for Dunfermline E`st, | :43:44. | :43:48. | |
Gordon Brown, find himself without an office successive seat. The | :43:49. | :43:52. | |
member for conduct -- frog Cordi Greek to retire and Mr Brown begin a | :43:53. | :43:55. | |
member of Parliament for Kirkcaldy and shortly after the member from | :43:56. | :43:59. | |
Kirkcaldy became a member of the House of Lords. Is that the kind of | :44:00. | :44:04. | |
democratic process you're t`lking about? I don't wish to menthon | :44:05. | :44:09. | |
particular examples goes thdre are still members who may or max not | :44:10. | :44:14. | |
have experienced this process. I do say that in my party and want to see | :44:15. | :44:19. | |
individual members with the power and not the party machines `nd | :44:20. | :44:23. | |
certainly not the leaders to select candidates. I say possibly `bout | :44:24. | :44:28. | |
this because I cannot prove such things occurred and I don't wish to | :44:29. | :44:33. | |
it employed any criticism of other members who might have been selected | :44:34. | :44:37. | |
in strong party seats. This might occur in other parties as wdll. It | :44:38. | :44:40. | |
is clearly the case that successive prime ministers before and since | :44:41. | :44:45. | |
have jealously guarded their powers of Peter Richard. I want to see | :44:46. | :44:48. | |
those powers taken away in the interests of a more vigorous | :44:49. | :44:52. | |
intensive democracy in this house and outside to rein in of these | :44:53. | :44:56. | |
extra. I think this is a serious matter and I hope that as and when | :44:57. | :45:01. | |
we come to discuss the posshble future of the House of Lords the | :45:02. | :45:07. | |
possibility of a united Parliament and getting rid of this pagd which | :45:08. | :45:15. | |
is raised again. I would like to pay credit to my honourable fridnd from | :45:16. | :45:18. | |
Weston Bath and shower and backbench committee for securing and | :45:19. | :45:23. | |
allocating this debate and for opening the debate in his own | :45:24. | :45:27. | |
inimitable and passionate style I'm grateful for the opportunitx to | :45:28. | :45:30. | |
debate and discuss Howard Whley second chamber of this housd should | :45:31. | :45:32. | |
be reformed to allow the parliament to walk -- work Mordt fairlx and | :45:33. | :45:39. | |
democratically across the UK. In it's current form has of Lords can | :45:40. | :45:42. | |
only be seen as an affront to democracy and has no place hn the | :45:43. | :45:45. | |
modern democratic position laking process. Since being elected last | :45:46. | :45:47. | |
the strange traditions that surround May I have become the | :45:48. | :45:53. | |
the strange traditions that surround this place. There are many outdated | :45:54. | :45:55. | |
rules and conventions that range from the old to ridiculous, from | :45:56. | :46:02. | |
trivial matters such as fancy dress and a 15 minute books that stifle | :46:03. | :46:05. | |
the democratic process. The most outdated relic is the unelected | :46:06. | :46:11. | |
second chamber of peers. Wh`t does it say about as given at he`ring the | :46:12. | :46:16. | |
21st-century we need to relx on an undemocratic body including roads as | :46:17. | :46:21. | |
leaders, defeated MPs, partx cries and donors to oversee and scrutinise | :46:22. | :46:24. | |
the work of the democratically elected obsessives in this place? | :46:25. | :46:29. | |
This bloated and out of datd chamber is the second-largest legends from | :46:30. | :46:34. | |
-- legislative body in the world. This is only behind the Nathonal | :46:35. | :46:37. | |
Beagle's congress of China, a similarly undemocratic beast. The | :46:38. | :46:42. | |
of Lords is growing at after the of | :46:43. | :46:46. | |
recent elections are the Government appointing party loyalists to serve | :46:47. | :46:50. | |
in the House of Lords. Kenndth Gibson -- Gibson has retaindd | :46:51. | :46:54. | |
figures at showing nearly 74% of employment is to lodge sincd the | :46:55. | :46:57. | |
election are defeated, retired or deselected MPs or former advisers. | :46:58. | :47:03. | |
The UK also stands out amongst other western democracies in giving a | :47:04. | :47:09. | |
religious leaders seats in the legislature as of right. Thd SNP | :47:10. | :47:12. | |
does not put forward any individuals to be appointed to serve in the | :47:13. | :47:15. | |
House of Lords, we have a long-standing opposition to this | :47:16. | :47:18. | |
costly, an democratic and bloated chamber and will continue opposing | :47:19. | :47:19. | |
it with every opportunity. contrast, although parties do that | :47:20. | :47:29. | |
forward regular part Disney people deserve a Spears got with shx of | :47:30. | :47:32. | |
these come from the main political parties that serve in this chamber. | :47:33. | :47:36. | |
As long as a long-standing dogmatic outrage there is equal and | :47:37. | :47:39. | |
long-standing financial cost having such a ridiculous chamber in place. | :47:40. | :47:44. | |
The 2014-15 it cost nearly ?95 million to run the head of Lords, | :47:45. | :47:48. | |
with over ?29 going on expenses and lunches. Put that in context to run | :47:49. | :47:54. | |
the eight ?7 million to run the Scottish Parliament and you can see | :47:55. | :47:56. | |
why so many constituents ard fed up with this chamber. -- ?27 mhllion. I | :47:57. | :48:03. | |
appreciate he is new to the house was I've been in the house five | :48:04. | :48:09. | |
years and I want to say that not a single constituent of mine has ever | :48:10. | :48:12. | |
mentioned the House of Lords. I was wondering how many constitudnts of | :48:13. | :48:17. | |
his have brought the subject up Thank you for this intervention was | :48:18. | :48:21. | |
at this point was made earlher and while there are many other hssues | :48:22. | :48:24. | |
coming up, I have to be hondst and say it's come up on the doorstep | :48:25. | :48:28. | |
many times. It is by far from the number 100 conversation but | :48:29. | :48:32. | |
certainly has, several times and I do come onto public levels of | :48:33. | :48:36. | |
support following my speech. It s clear to most people right now, in | :48:37. | :48:43. | |
fact, it's clear to most people that the second chamber needs a radical | :48:44. | :48:46. | |
reform that if we want to c`ll ourselves a true modern democracy, | :48:47. | :48:52. | |
and a recent YouGov poll from the temperature in given the range of | :48:53. | :48:57. | |
options, 41% of people belidve the House of Lords should be entirely | :48:58. | :49:00. | |
respondents thought the system was elected, but crucially, onlx 5% | :49:01. | :49:05. | |
respondents thought the system was acceptable in its current format. | :49:06. | :49:08. | |
Even though the recently published Strathclyde reviewed dot colment on | :49:09. | :49:10. | |
the condition of the eyes of Lords, provides the opportunity to discuss | :49:11. | :49:13. | |
the future of the House of Lords in more detail. This was housed -- | :49:14. | :49:18. | |
easily read by a Government heart, following the elite in defe`t over | :49:19. | :49:23. | |
tax credit costs to costs, this was set up to accompany the second | :49:24. | :49:29. | |
chamber's abilities all the Government can, these issues need to | :49:30. | :49:32. | |
be to beat Ismet, not pushed to easily. The UK Government w`nts to | :49:33. | :49:37. | |
muzzle the Lords in the samd way as is or the mother of charitids and | :49:38. | :49:40. | |
others who have criticised welfare reform and austerity. Accept the | :49:41. | :49:45. | |
Government has a majority of MPs in his chamber, but it should not | :49:46. | :49:47. | |
confuse this with having a lajority of wisdom. On matters of Parliament | :49:48. | :49:51. | |
be willing to listen to and work be willing to listen to and work | :49:52. | :49:55. | |
with those who have different views to them. This can be other LPs, | :49:56. | :50:00. | |
other parties, other Parlialent outside the organisation 's or the | :50:01. | :50:05. | |
second chamber. The SNP does not support the current approach the | :50:06. | :50:09. | |
House of Lords, those who attend or the privilege associated th`t we | :50:10. | :50:12. | |
have to acknowledge that on occasion the Lords can be useful. For | :50:13. | :50:15. | |
's review of the impact of planned recent tax credit U-turn. The board | :50:16. | :50:22. | |
's review of the impact of planned cuts to ESA is another example of | :50:23. | :50:27. | |
the invaluable review of policy that media second chamber to takd for | :50:28. | :50:30. | |
that I did not support an elected second chamber and believe the House | :50:31. | :50:35. | |
of Lords must be abolished. And in such an eventuality there is the | :50:36. | :50:38. | |
option of having a unicamer`l parliament, has outlined prdviously. | :50:39. | :50:44. | |
With a committee structure of the Scottish Parliament, but for the | :50:45. | :50:47. | |
purposes of this debate I'vd presumed there is a reason for | :50:48. | :50:50. | |
having to tears. Whatever arrangement are made we must be able | :50:51. | :50:54. | |
to properly is good night and hold this governments to account. I have | :50:55. | :50:59. | |
to be honest, and admits to the varying conflicted when forced to | :51:00. | :51:02. | |
rely on an unelected chamber to defend the welfare state ag`inst the | :51:03. | :51:05. | |
cuts planned by this Conservative Government. It of the Lords to | :51:06. | :51:09. | |
tackle the planned cuts comd as flawed as it is, it will be down the | :51:10. | :51:12. | |
second chamber to phase the Government again as it seems | :51:13. | :51:15. | |
determined to cut implement support allowance, further penalising to sit | :51:16. | :51:19. | |
-- disabled the people, somd of whom will be members in Westminster Hall | :51:20. | :51:23. | |
yesterday. This highlights the absurdity of the constitutional | :51:24. | :51:27. | |
arrangement that we rely on an light appears to be dead as from some of | :51:28. | :51:30. | |
the worst aspects of this Government policy agenda. This situation has | :51:31. | :51:35. | |
got lots of anger in Scotland, why are we forced Ryan are elected peers | :51:36. | :51:37. | |
to defend bellows of distance and their families? Scotland has seen | :51:38. | :51:42. | |
unimpressed and levels of ddmocratic engagement during and after the | :51:43. | :51:45. | |
is outdated, out of touch and an is outdated, out of touch and an | :51:46. | :51:52. | |
democratic is to develop desperate is the -- defend the wealthhest it | :51:53. | :51:55. | |
does not sit well with people or with me for topic in front to | :51:56. | :51:59. | |
democracy and the way the p`ge list system has rewarded party loyalists | :52:00. | :52:04. | |
is treated of the iceberg. We recently lured that friends of | :52:05. | :52:07. | |
Cabinet ministers have been rewarded for their services with a place in | :52:08. | :52:13. | |
the Lords. MPs are special `dvisers and parties who were awarded | :52:14. | :52:16. | |
peerages after the election make the house look like a dumping ground or | :52:17. | :52:20. | |
a retirement plan for party cronies. The numerous expenses scand`ls also | :52:21. | :52:24. | |
do nothing to improve the ilage of the Lords. Whatever my feelhngs I | :52:25. | :52:32. | |
do recognise the benefits of having a second chamber at Westminster | :52:33. | :52:36. | |
with this current Government in administration. We don't have to | :52:37. | :52:40. | |
reinvent the wheel, there h`s been a range of work done to review the | :52:41. | :52:43. | |
current setup, several organisations have done lots of work on this issue | :52:44. | :52:46. | |
and have come up with sever`l options. Groups such as the | :52:47. | :52:50. | |
electoral reforms are cited, and the UCL Constitution unit carridd out | :52:51. | :52:54. | |
in-depth research into the Lords and its possible alternatives. We'd | :52:55. | :52:59. | |
Joffrey commented and transparent debate in Government is timd that | :53:00. | :53:02. | |
the Conservative Government would be rocked Instagram at judging by the | :53:03. | :53:05. | |
way they've rushed to the Strathclyde review. The Labour and | :53:06. | :53:06. | |
Conservatives have been failing to Conservatives have been failing to | :53:07. | :53:10. | |
follow through on their intdntions to reform the House of Lords. With | :53:11. | :53:14. | |
the introduction of the Parliament act in 1911 it was the outlhne of | :53:15. | :53:17. | |
the Government has no intention to reform but after 105 years were | :53:18. | :53:21. | |
still waiting for any real reform to take place. The recent attackers | :53:22. | :53:26. | |
U-turn shows eight second chamber has its place but media chalber told | :53:27. | :53:29. | |
the Government to account and properly scrutinised legisl`tion | :53:30. | :53:33. | |
that is now the House of Lords is one more outdated Westminstdr | :53:34. | :53:35. | |
element that should be conshgned to history the | :53:36. | :53:39. | |
and we have a working second chamber it will be time to make surd we have | :53:40. | :53:44. | |
a modern and flexible democracy and abolished the medieval Housd of | :53:45. | :53:47. | |
Lords, we need to look ahead, not backwards. Initially when I wandered | :53:48. | :53:56. | |
into the chamber today, I thought I had come into the wrong deb`te. | :53:57. | :54:01. | |
Because it says the House of Lords reform and I don't believe, then all | :54:02. | :54:04. | |
my colleagues don't believe, there is no reforming something that is so | :54:05. | :54:09. | |
deeply undemocratic and rotten to the core. There is no doubt that the | :54:10. | :54:13. | |
general public across the UK is general public across the UK is | :54:14. | :54:19. | |
disengaged from and deeply `lienate it by much of what goes on hn this | :54:20. | :54:25. | |
place. It is dangerous for democracy when the Beeb is intended to serve | :54:26. | :54:29. | |
with so much interest in fahth in it and we can come up with manx warm | :54:30. | :54:34. | |
words and grand ideas about how to tackle that, but I would argue that | :54:35. | :54:38. | |
perhaps the single most important thing we can do it to repair, some, | :54:39. | :54:43. | |
not all, but some of that d`mage between those of us who serve and | :54:44. | :54:49. | |
those who we seek to serve would be to hear the calls, the deafdning din | :54:50. | :54:58. | |
in Scotland, to polish the House of Lords. Which is no better than a | :54:59. | :55:01. | |
carbuncle on the face of delocracy across the UK. -- to abolish. There | :55:02. | :55:05. | |
is a deep sense of frustrathon with it across communities in Scotland. | :55:06. | :55:13. | |
It has already been pointed out that this archaic, outdated, medheval and | :55:14. | :55:21. | |
anachronistic in any state that purports to be a modern enlhghtened | :55:22. | :55:26. | |
and forward-looking democracy. Just to be clear, because it is, the | :55:27. | :55:29. | |
couple of times in the course of this debate so far, we do not just | :55:30. | :55:33. | |
object to the personnel in the House of Lords, we, although we do, we do | :55:34. | :55:43. | |
not recognise its legitimacx or it's right to legislate over cithzens of | :55:44. | :55:52. | |
the UK. I agree very much whth what she is saying. The honourable | :55:53. | :55:55. | |
gentleman on the other side suggested this never cons of the | :55:56. | :55:59. | |
doorstep, would you not agrde the reason is that people are fhrst | :56:00. | :56:02. | |
concerned about jobs, housing, poverty, and the health service but | :56:03. | :56:07. | |
if asked about the House of Lords, then | :56:08. | :56:11. | |
have the agree with the honourable gentleman and it's something I will | :56:12. | :56:14. | |
touch on later in my speech. When people speak to you on the doorstep, | :56:15. | :56:18. | |
of course their priority is job security, food on the table, | :56:19. | :56:22. | |
benefits sanctions, but if tsed gradually surface, the Housd of | :56:23. | :56:27. | |
Lords is universally hated `cross the UK, in my view. You will have | :56:28. | :56:31. | |
some small pockets of support got some traditionalists, if yot call | :56:32. | :56:34. | |
them that, but for the ordinary men and women on the street, thhs is an | :56:35. | :56:40. | |
affront to modern democracy. It is bad enough | :56:41. | :56:44. | |
is unelected, but when you consider, is unelected, but when you consider, | :56:45. | :56:45. | |
and it's already been said by several other members so far, one of | :56:46. | :56:49. | |
the disadvantages of being so far down the speaking this, but when you | :56:50. | :56:53. | |
consider that only with the exception of Iran, we are the only | :56:54. | :56:57. | |
state in the world that has clerics and did get in on legislation, it | :56:58. | :57:02. | |
really is quite incredible `nd it shows further the absurdity of this | :57:03. | :57:07. | |
relic. Despite all of the plaudits and feeble attempts and I bdlieve | :57:08. | :57:13. | |
they have been feeble, to jtstify the other place, perhaps by those | :57:14. | :57:17. | |
who have cronies who said there or by those who seemed to retire there | :57:18. | :57:20. | |
themselves them, it cannot be justified that | :57:21. | :57:26. | |
those who are elected off and those who have been actively rejected by | :57:27. | :57:31. | |
voters or perhaps, and argu`bly worse, those who have shied away | :57:32. | :57:35. | |
from presenting themselves to voters at any time at all, despite, | :57:36. | :57:41. | |
perhaps, having political albitions, it really is a laughing stock for | :57:42. | :57:47. | |
the rest of the world. I'm grateful for you giving way on that point. My | :57:48. | :57:53. | |
disappointment that this Government only had one MP from Scotland to the | :57:54. | :58:00. | |
games got his secretary to fill the will of the deadly Scottish | :58:01. | :58:02. | |
Secretary had to aggrandise someone can put them in the House of Lords, | :58:03. | :58:05. | |
in order to fulfil that rold. I wholeheartedly agree with what my | :58:06. | :58:10. | |
friend Matt has said and I would like to add my disappointment that | :58:11. | :58:15. | |
the leader of the Labour Party, the Leader of the Opposition of this | :58:16. | :58:18. | |
house, who would consider hhmself having very left-wing credentials | :58:19. | :58:23. | |
and has himself co-opted melbers of the House of Lords injuries at | :58:24. | :58:26. | |
Shadow Cabinet. A travesty hf there ever there was one! | :58:27. | :58:31. | |
In my formative years I was a huge fan of the political novels of | :58:32. | :58:37. | |
Anthony Trollope but I have no wish to live in the 19th-century | :58:38. | :58:48. | |
LAUGHTER Eft Madam Speaker will indulge me | :58:49. | :58:55. | |
for just a moment, I feel I have to, because the member of Paisldy and | :58:56. | :58:59. | |
Renfrewshire North has perh`ps shamed me into doing so and our | :59:00. | :59:02. | |
relations will become strained if I do not do so... -- if Madam Speaker | :59:03. | :59:12. | |
will allow me. The member for Cunningham North indeed une`rthed | :59:13. | :59:15. | |
defeated, retired or deselected MPs appointments to the | :59:16. | :59:21. | |
defeated, retired or deselected MPs or former advisers, and it hs true | :59:22. | :59:25. | |
because we actually hear it, the stampede after every election the | :59:26. | :59:30. | |
words the error main from this place to that place -- are mine. Hf I were | :59:31. | :59:38. | |
not so serious, I would be laughing. Hereditary peers, bishops, but only | :59:39. | :59:42. | |
from the Church of England, and I have often wondered, does that mean | :59:43. | :59:46. | |
God is an Englishman? LAUGHTER | :59:47. | :59:52. | |
Would you agree that if God were a Scotsman, he still wouldn't want a | :59:53. | :00:01. | |
place in the House of Lords? Absolutely. Cronies, party donors, | :00:02. | :00:02. | |
party men and women, although there are a few women than men, rdtired | :00:03. | :00:10. | |
politicians looking for a wde hobby. In 2016, come on, perhaps in Anthony | :00:11. | :00:19. | |
Trollope's time, but for thd love of God, get a grip! When we do get rid | :00:20. | :00:26. | |
of this relic, I bet, just like the smoking ban, people will wonder how | :00:27. | :00:30. | |
did it take so long? Why did we wait so long? No one on these benches are | :00:31. | :00:36. | |
saying they are not some well-intentioned people in the House | :00:37. | :00:39. | |
of Lords, no one is saying they are not some folk who have much | :00:40. | :00:46. | |
expertise and skill to offer their country's legislative process.. | :00:47. | :00:47. | |
That is quite hard to see! No one is That is quite hard to see! No | :00:48. | :00:55. | |
saying we should not enter hnto a debate about the relative mdrits of | :00:56. | :00:57. | |
a second chamber to revise legislation. That is one we could | :00:58. | :01:01. | |
and should have in the future. What we are saying is that anyond who | :01:02. | :01:06. | |
seeks to pontificate over, revise, introduce or influence legislation | :01:07. | :01:09. | |
and Arab parliament should be elected by the people they purport | :01:10. | :01:17. | |
to serve. It is as simple as that -- legislation of our parliament. The | :01:18. | :01:21. | |
number in the Chinese peopld's National Congress. On that, I cannot | :01:22. | :01:23. | |
help but remember and Iran, we are in good colpany | :01:24. | :01:31. | |
with those beacons of democracy .. I will give way. Thank you for giving | :01:32. | :01:39. | |
way. Which she perhaps agred with the point from the right Honourable | :01:40. | :01:43. | |
member from Livingston, in his book, when he recalled an incident at the | :01:44. | :01:52. | |
U Africa summit -- Europe and Africa summit, where he said someone said | :01:53. | :01:57. | |
Britain could not be critichsed for failing to introduce democr`cy, and | :01:58. | :02:03. | |
that in the 50 years of independence, with the get rid of | :02:04. | :02:12. | |
the 500 year chamber... Yes, and this is a serious point. We are told | :02:13. | :02:16. | |
these are austere times. We cannot afford to have so-called benefits | :02:17. | :02:21. | |
grand jurors. We can only afford to help the so-called strivers, which | :02:22. | :02:26. | |
the House of Lords have stolen. We must punish families with more than | :02:27. | :02:32. | |
knows if you have a third child you are clearly at it, getting loney out | :02:33. | :02:39. | |
of the tax. Here, we have in the House of Lords, what most of my | :02:40. | :02:43. | |
constituents would think of as a trough, costing ?94.4 million and | :02:44. | :02:48. | |
this dripping roast, as my constituents would call it, costs | :02:49. | :02:56. | |
more than the Scottish Parlhament, and elected representative body of | :02:57. | :03:01. | |
the people. It has even mord members than the European Parliament. | :03:02. | :03:03. | |
Clement Attlee, in my view, was being very kind when he described | :03:04. | :03:07. | |
the House of Lords as being like a glass of champagne that has stood | :03:08. | :03:10. | |
for five days. LAUGHTER | :03:11. | :03:15. | |
I much prefer the analysis that says the best cure for the House of | :03:16. | :03:20. | |
Lords, is to go and look at it. When we sanction vulnerable people on | :03:21. | :03:24. | |
benefits were five minutes late for an appointment at the job cdntre, | :03:25. | :03:26. | |
when we hammer women 1850s by removing their rethrement | :03:27. | :03:37. | |
age further away -- 1950s. When my constituentss see Scotland's budget | :03:38. | :03:40. | |
being squeezed and this is called a sustainable economic plan, H and so | :03:41. | :03:45. | |
many others ask, how does this sustainable economic plan ilpact | :03:46. | :03:50. | |
upon the waist, the affront to democracy, the dripping roast, that | :03:51. | :03:58. | |
is the House of Lords? -- w`ste These people dear to pontifhcate | :03:59. | :04:01. | |
over Scotland's constitutional future. Let's face it. The House of | :04:02. | :04:06. | |
Lords themselves hardly takd it seriously, with attendances around | :04:07. | :04:11. | |
60%. The dripping roast is drying up, so perhaps the attendance has | :04:12. | :04:15. | |
improved recently and that hs because much | :04:16. | :04:19. | |
last dying moments of the House of Lords. What a tragedy that the 015 | :04:20. | :04:25. | |
Conservative manifesto indicated it did not consider the House of Lords | :04:26. | :04:31. | |
reform our priority. Instead, let's prioritise bashing the vulndrable, | :04:32. | :04:36. | |
picking benefits a way from the per, and the Strathclyde review was a | :04:37. | :04:41. | |
wasted opportunity -- from the second back. Again, turkeys do not | :04:42. | :04:45. | |
fought for Christmas. Think the edges all you like but you will | :04:46. | :04:49. | |
never make this affront to democracy palatable enough for the people in | :04:50. | :04:52. | |
my constituency to see it whth any legitimacy. Let's abolish this | :04:53. | :04:55. | |
carbuncle on the face of Let's listen to the people `nd then | :04:56. | :05:01. | |
they may begin listening to what this place has to say. I wotld urge | :05:02. | :05:07. | |
the Minister to screw his courage to the sticking place. Get a grip. Get | :05:08. | :05:11. | |
rid of it. It is time the UK grew up. Thank you, Madame Deputx | :05:12. | :05:22. | |
Speaker. When engines were first developed, they were dirty, | :05:23. | :05:26. | |
unreliable and inefficient, but they evolved and improved. When H want to | :05:27. | :05:36. | |
get from A to B in a timely and comfortable fashion I look to use | :05:37. | :05:40. | |
this suitable vehicle. I do not use the 45-year-old project I h`ve | :05:41. | :05:42. | |
propped up on bricks in my garage propped up on bricks in | :05:43. | :05:47. | |
and, don't get me wrong, thdre is a place in my heart for my 1967 2 CC | :05:48. | :05:57. | |
engine and skinny tyres but I recognise it will not fulfil the | :05:58. | :06:01. | |
criteria I need for day-to-day driving. Over the last hundred | :06:02. | :06:07. | |
years, transport, education, health care, foreign policy, defence, they | :06:08. | :06:11. | |
have all evolved and are barely recognisable from their younger | :06:12. | :06:14. | |
selves, yet the House of Lords has not kept pace. Utilising thd House | :06:15. | :06:20. | |
second chamber of this Parlhament in second chamber of this Parlhament in | :06:21. | :06:24. | |
this day and age is as practical as using a horse and cart to journey | :06:25. | :06:28. | |
down a busy motorway. We have continued to govern from a | :06:29. | :06:33. | |
cloistered and privileged place rooted in the past. Parliamdnt | :06:34. | :06:36. | |
should reflect the society ht wishes to create and the House of Lords | :06:37. | :06:42. | |
does not reflect any societx that I wish to be apart of. No doubt, there | :06:43. | :06:48. | |
are capable, compassionate people who watch it in the Lords and do | :06:49. | :06:53. | |
care, can to govern and in fact for the very people who could and would | :06:54. | :06:57. | |
be in a drastically elected to a second chamber, but far too many | :06:58. | :07:02. | |
design. We require a second chamber design. We require a second chamber | :07:03. | :07:07. | |
that reflects the 21st-centtry, chamber that represents all | :07:08. | :07:11. | |
religions and none. A chambdr that sits during recognise working hours, | :07:12. | :07:16. | |
a chamber elected and not inhabited by the fourth generation offspring | :07:17. | :07:20. | |
of long forgotten generals, admirals and landowning aristocracy. The | :07:21. | :07:26. | |
chamber who cannot be bought for political favour. A chamber that is | :07:27. | :07:29. | |
accountable to the behaviour of its members. Of course, reforming the | :07:30. | :07:34. | |
House of Lords is not a new idea. The proposal to directly eldct | :07:35. | :07:39. | |
members was first proposed over 100 years ago and it is probablx due a | :07:40. | :07:43. | |
second reading any day now! LAUGHTER | :07:44. | :07:46. | |
Much more recently than that, when the lords of leaping refused to play | :07:47. | :07:50. | |
ball with the current Government and kicked out proposals on tax credits, | :07:51. | :07:54. | |
the Government sprung into `ction and ordered... Review! May, a rapid | :07:55. | :08:03. | |
review, and who better to cheer a rapid review between the two houses | :08:04. | :08:09. | |
of parliament but a former Leader of the House of Lords -- Nay. @ | :08:10. | :08:13. | |
hereditary peer who had nevdr been elected to any chamber. The outcome | :08:14. | :08:16. | |
of the rapid review was and, don't get too excited, a new procddure, | :08:17. | :08:22. | |
and this new procedure would invite The Commons to think again. But Lord | :08:23. | :08:27. | |
Strathclyde did not leave it there, no. With the full force of | :08:28. | :08:33. | |
parliament, he wielded his lighty pen and suggested, yes, suggested, | :08:34. | :08:36. | |
that a review should take place to be known henceforth as some of rapid | :08:37. | :08:42. | |
review. But then the Governlent responded and allowed a full debate, | :08:43. | :08:47. | |
in the House of Lords... LAUGHTER | :08:48. | :08:50. | |
On the back of this earth-shattering outcome, we all went home for | :08:51. | :08:54. | |
Christmas and forgot all about rapid review and its offspring. Not | :08:55. | :08:59. | |
surprisingly, MPs continued to ask questions regarding the reform of | :09:00. | :09:02. | |
the House of Lords and as rdcently as the 14th of September 2004 the | :09:03. | :09:07. | |
Prime Minister responded to such a question by reassuring he would be | :09:08. | :09:10. | |
looking with others at issuds such as the size of the chamber `nd the | :09:11. | :09:16. | |
retirement of peers. By sizd, I presume he meant the number, rather | :09:17. | :09:20. | |
than the dimensions, as he hs the Prime Minister who has created more | :09:21. | :09:25. | |
appears than any other sincd the system was overhauled in linking 58. | :09:26. | :09:37. | |
-- created more tears. And created in 1958 -- set-mac. A chambdr | :09:38. | :09:41. | |
directly elected by the electorate with set terms for elected lembers, | :09:42. | :09:46. | |
a decrease in the number of members, secular chamber, a fair number of | :09:47. | :09:50. | |
seats for the UK's nations `nd regions, measures to encour`ge a | :09:51. | :09:54. | |
more diverse range of candidates designed to represent civil society | :09:55. | :09:56. | |
and minorities. Many possible and minorities. | :09:57. | :10:00. | |
changes could improve the House of Lords but, rather like the old joke, | :10:01. | :10:04. | |
how many psychiatrists does it take to change a light bulb, one, but the | :10:05. | :10:10. | |
light bulb has too want to change. The House of Lords has to w`nt to | :10:11. | :10:14. | |
change and this place has to want to change it. If reform is reqtired | :10:15. | :10:21. | |
practically, are there many ways this could be done? Of course. Is | :10:22. | :10:27. | |
there it will? If there is, let us hope it did not lead to the | :10:28. | :10:36. | |
hereditary peer and the next line of incumbents and let's make | :10:37. | :10:41. | |
testament to reform. In conclusion, I appeal to this Government, if it | :10:42. | :10:46. | |
genuinely wants change, put it on the agenda and make it happdn. If | :10:47. | :10:51. | |
not, if they are content with the current status, simply stand up and | :10:52. | :11:00. | |
say so. Thank you, Madame Ddputy Speaker. Can I commend the Backbench | :11:01. | :11:03. | |
Business Committee for making time for this debate and also | :11:04. | :11:08. | |
congratulate my honourable friend from West Dunbartonshire, not only | :11:09. | :11:11. | |
for that outstandingly passhonate speech he gave but also I hope | :11:12. | :11:17. | |
won't mind me mentioning he has other reasons for earning | :11:18. | :11:19. | |
congratulations and well wishes over the past week and I hope we all wish | :11:20. | :11:23. | |
him very well indeed in the new life he is leading. All the best to him. | :11:24. | :11:31. | |
My honourable friend started the preparations for the birthd`y of | :11:32. | :11:37. | |
Robert Burns by quoting not only the greatest work Robert Burns | :11:38. | :11:40. | |
overwrought but arguably thd greatest humanitarian work hn the | :11:41. | :11:44. | |
history of literature and I was a bit disappointed because I thought | :11:45. | :11:47. | |
he would continue with the section of that song that would almost sum | :11:48. | :11:49. | |
up that debate in a few words. Ye see yon birkie, ca'd a lord, | :11:50. | :12:14. | |
Wha struts, an' stares, an' a' that; Tho' hundreds | :12:15. | :12:16. | |
worship at his word, He should know that as far `s I m | :12:17. | :12:24. | |
concerned, anything used by Robert Burns can be used in this chamber. I | :12:25. | :12:30. | |
am very grateful indeed, Madame Deputy Speaker, not least bdcause I | :12:31. | :12:36. | |
want to intend -- I intend to refer to the Bard later on. When we | :12:37. | :12:40. | |
started the process of revidwing as to how we would prepare the fabric | :12:41. | :12:46. | |
of this undoubtedly magnificent and historic building, it was b`sed on | :12:47. | :12:51. | |
the assumption that Parliamdnt would continue to operate in exactly the | :12:52. | :12:55. | |
done. A golden opportunity lissed, I done. A | :12:56. | :13:00. | |
would suggest, for the procdss is not only of this chamber but also | :13:01. | :13:04. | |
reforming the second chamber. This may now be a chance to ask ourselves | :13:05. | :13:08. | |
the question. Why do we need a second chamber at all? Other modern | :13:09. | :13:12. | |
inclusive democratic countrhes manage perfectly well with one | :13:13. | :13:15. | |
chamber. If you think about it, the argument that the second ch`mber is | :13:16. | :13:20. | |
good at scrutinising and chdcking the actions of the first ch`mber | :13:21. | :13:24. | |
suggest to me we are seeing the first chamber is not doing hts job, | :13:25. | :13:28. | |
so perhaps we should literally get our own House in order and then | :13:29. | :13:31. | |
consider whether we want another house just down the road. I will | :13:32. | :13:32. | |
give way. Dimension Sweden in my speech, which | :13:33. | :13:42. | |
has abolish it second chambdr, does it appreciate they have not become | :13:43. | :13:44. | |
undemocratic, it's democratic as before. The honourable | :13:45. | :13:49. | |
member makes a valid point. Imagine the situation with this Parliament | :13:50. | :13:55. | |
historically high precision -- persisted with a single elected | :13:56. | :13:59. | |
Skjelbred is came along and insisted we needed a second unelected chamber | :14:00. | :14:04. | |
to democratic, they would bd laughed out of the room. I think thdre are | :14:05. | :14:08. | |
options available to us if we're prepared to look at having ` second | :14:09. | :14:12. | |
elected chamber, assuming wd needed second chamber. It gives us a chance | :14:13. | :14:16. | |
to elect a host of chords on a different cycle from the Hotse of | :14:17. | :14:22. | |
Commons to avoid the temptation for governments to time their | :14:23. | :14:25. | |
announcement and legislation with a view to getting re-elected hn a few | :14:26. | :14:29. | |
years. It would give us the importance chance to elected second | :14:30. | :14:32. | |
method to help even out somd of the method to help even out somd | :14:33. | :14:37. | |
undoubted inequities that exist in the first past the post system. The | :14:38. | :14:41. | |
SNP benefited this time frol the post system. The system was not fair | :14:42. | :14:45. | |
when it works to our despitd -- disadvantage and is not fair when it | :14:46. | :14:50. | |
worst our advantage. There has been comments made before, earlidr on, | :14:51. | :14:54. | |
about the place of representatives of the Church of England in House of | :14:55. | :14:59. | |
Lords. I will defend and colmend the actions of a number of churches and | :15:00. | :15:01. | |
youth groups in helping dad as a youth groups in helping dad as a | :15:02. | :15:05. | |
social conscience of our nations. So the work different churches have | :15:06. | :15:10. | |
done interesting critiques of benefits sanctions and nucldar | :15:11. | :15:14. | |
weapons, reminding us the rdfugee crisis involves human beings, not | :15:15. | :15:18. | |
about a burden on our benefhts system. This will be import`nt and I | :15:19. | :15:21. | |
hope these groups including humanist faith groups will continue to that, | :15:22. | :15:28. | |
but should they in this ten days have not a magic rites to m`ke laws | :15:29. | :15:33. | |
that apply to the majority of citizens in these islands who choose | :15:34. | :15:37. | |
to worship and follow a different interpretation of the Faith? That is | :15:38. | :15:39. | |
a conversation that will be difficult for many. It is a | :15:40. | :15:43. | |
conversation that we really cannot shy away from for much longdr. There | :15:44. | :15:48. | |
is an argument that there is benefit in allowing people from all walks of | :15:49. | :15:55. | |
life, not just the relatively narrow political elite to play a p`rt in | :15:56. | :15:59. | |
scrutinising legislation. Two problems of that, it's not the | :16:00. | :16:03. | |
representative sample of society. If anything, it's more dominatdd by the | :16:04. | :16:07. | |
political elite than the Hotse of Commons, and second, the doctors | :16:08. | :16:10. | |
scrutinise legislation, thex can stop and block it and even lake | :16:11. | :16:14. | |
legislation for themselves `nd ask us to scrutinise it. As for the | :16:15. | :16:21. | |
honourable member for Lutheran mentioned earlier on, if thdre are | :16:22. | :16:30. | |
benefits in having non-membdrs of Parliament experts or laypeople | :16:31. | :16:33. | |
advising and scrutinising legislation, why not set up a system | :16:34. | :16:37. | |
that allows appointed peopld description nice and examind other | :16:38. | :16:44. | |
but not to legislate and not to overrule the Democratic chalber | :16:45. | :16:47. | |
That is an option that is available with further investigation. There | :16:48. | :16:54. | |
will be some who appealed to this tradition, as if tradition was | :16:55. | :16:58. | |
always a good thing. I think addition is important, Arab | :16:59. | :17:00. | |
traditions make us who we are and we lose sight of who we are thdn we are | :17:01. | :17:05. | |
in trouble. -- our traditions. If we allow tradition to be the jtdge as | :17:06. | :17:07. | |
to what happens in the would still send children up | :17:08. | :17:13. | |
chimneys and down mimes, sthll be exploiting slaves from other parts | :17:14. | :17:17. | |
of the world, and more topically, if it continued to judge things | :17:18. | :17:20. | |
according to the additions of - applied in this chamber, thd | :17:21. | :17:24. | |
honourable gentleman the Secretary of State for Scotland would have to | :17:25. | :17:27. | |
resign from his post this wdek. Thank goodness we have moved away | :17:28. | :17:32. | |
from conditions that were indefensible 300 years ago `nd no | :17:33. | :17:35. | |
it say about democracy in this it say about democracy in this | :17:36. | :17:42. | |
Parliament when the only organisation that consistently | :17:43. | :17:44. | |
blocks any kind of proper rdform of the House of Lords is also the one | :17:45. | :17:49. | |
with the biggest invested interest in not reforming House of Lords | :17:50. | :17:53. | |
itself? That something that most people in these islands simply | :17:54. | :17:58. | |
cannot understand, even those who are not 100% convinced the Lords | :17:59. | :18:01. | |
should be abolished. They c`nnot understand why it should be. A | :18:02. | :18:07. | |
supposedly sovereign chamber in Parliament take the decision to | :18:08. | :18:10. | |
reform the House of Lords themselves can block any attempts to rdform | :18:11. | :18:15. | |
themselves. Even without legislation, even without | :18:16. | :18:17. | |
legislation blocked or delayed indefinitely by | :18:18. | :18:23. | |
the Lords themselves, the p`rty leaders could give commitments today | :18:24. | :18:29. | |
that would get rid of some of the potential abuses and abuses that, | :18:30. | :18:33. | |
let's face it, we all know have happened. It's not possible to point | :18:34. | :18:36. | |
that an individual appointmdnt and know for certain it was basdd on | :18:37. | :18:41. | |
financial transactions or a deal made from someone who was still a | :18:42. | :18:44. | |
member of Parliament, but the fact that the system can be vulndrable to | :18:45. | :18:50. | |
that kind of abuse means th`t in the eyes of the public, it's very | :18:51. | :18:52. | |
probably has been used in that way probably has been used in that way | :18:53. | :18:57. | |
or abused in that way in thd past. Let's look at what I think H be the | :18:58. | :19:00. | |
worst abuses and I will invhte the Government spokesperson not to | :19:01. | :19:03. | |
commit to doing them, but at least to commit to giving serious | :19:04. | :19:07. | |
consideration. The parties right now could start to make the appointments | :19:08. | :19:11. | |
system for the House of Lords more acceptable pending a proper and | :19:12. | :19:16. | |
rapid review sometime in thd next two or 300 years. There is lots of | :19:17. | :19:25. | |
concern about the fact that politicians who are kicked out by | :19:26. | :19:29. | |
the democratic process can come back and arguably better a lot than that, | :19:30. | :19:37. | |
why don't we ban appointments from MPs to the House of Lords? Dven for | :19:38. | :19:39. | |
a period of five or ten years afterwards. There's lots of concern | :19:40. | :19:47. | |
that there seems to be a high correlation between you appointments | :19:48. | :19:53. | |
to the House of Lords and previous appointments to Partick offdrs ample | :19:54. | :19:56. | |
25 cents of wrist appointments made by the Prime Minister would be glad | :19:57. | :20:00. | |
made substantial donations to the party coppers. Idle objects to be | :20:01. | :20:04. | |
book giving money to cause `s they believing that there is an hssue | :20:05. | :20:07. | |
that damages to reputation of this place in the public eyes. Why not | :20:08. | :20:12. | |
set a limit? Anyone who has to needed above recession amounts to a | :20:13. | :20:15. | |
political party cannot take a place in the House of Lords? Again, | :20:16. | :20:17. | |
call -- cooling off period. The possibly with a | :20:18. | :20:22. | |
call -- cooling off period. The final abuse to this system, page | :20:23. | :20:27. | |
after page of improvements to the -- to the Scotland Bill were ptt | :20:28. | :20:30. | |
forward by people elected to represent Scotland. They were | :20:31. | :20:34. | |
rejected by MPs who have no mandate to rectory net -- to represdnt | :20:35. | :20:39. | |
Scotland and reintroduced bx the same MPs by their friends in House | :20:40. | :20:42. | |
of Lords and when it came b`ck to House of Commons the people who | :20:43. | :20:47. | |
voted against them one month ago voted for them a short time later. | :20:48. | :20:52. | |
That is I believe the wrong use of the progress even just now, why | :20:53. | :20:56. | |
don't we invite the Governmdnt to at least consider the possibilhty | :20:57. | :21:02. | |
they will put themselves under a voluntary ban, they will not | :21:03. | :21:05. | |
introduce medium legislation in the Lords unless it's been passdd by | :21:06. | :21:08. | |
this Gimber first and will not introduce large numbers of | :21:09. | :21:11. | |
significant amendments in the Lords and then have the opportunity to | :21:12. | :21:14. | |
could have envisaged in this place first. Even if those changes were | :21:15. | :21:19. | |
introduced, they would not go far enough for me. It would not go far | :21:20. | :21:22. | |
enough for a lot of people. It would be a way of starting to at least | :21:23. | :21:25. | |
show good faith and showing people of these islands the | :21:26. | :21:31. | |
Government is serious about tackling the appointments system in | :21:32. | :21:37. | |
particular that has no placd in a representative democracy. | :21:38. | :21:39. | |
Westminster earlier someone refers to as the mother of Parliamdnts I | :21:40. | :21:43. | |
will not comment on which jtdgment I would take, but I've heard ` story | :21:44. | :21:47. | |
that someone was made the s`me comment during a hustings ddbate, | :21:48. | :21:53. | |
probably somewhere north of the border, by announcing he was proud | :21:54. | :21:56. | |
to serve in the mother of all Parliaments and a voice frol the | :21:57. | :22:00. | |
back ask if he had any idea who the father had been. I will not say | :22:01. | :22:07. | |
which of the comments I prefer. I started by quoting the gritters poem | :22:08. | :22:13. | |
Robert Burns ever wrote but I think the greatest bees of writing that | :22:14. | :22:16. | |
came from him, surprisingly, is not poetry or song, it's a piecd of | :22:17. | :22:23. | |
prose. Whatever mitigates the walls or increases the happiness of | :22:24. | :22:28. | |
others, this is my goodness. Whatever injures society at large or | :22:29. | :22:32. | |
any individual image, this hs my measure of inequity. In the way that | :22:33. | :22:36. | |
its members have appointed right now, we have an iniquitous `s part | :22:37. | :22:42. | |
of this Parliament. There is not prepared to follow at the Lords are | :22:43. | :22:46. | |
not prepared to accept reform then we can, will and must be abolished. | :22:47. | :22:56. | |
-- they can. Thank you. I al delighted to speak on behalf of the | :22:57. | :22:59. | |
SNP in this backbench busindss debate on House of Lords. I am | :23:00. | :23:03. | |
pleased my honourable friend from West Dunbartonshire secured this | :23:04. | :23:07. | |
debate. I am glad that he spoke some time ago that everyone has forgotten | :23:08. | :23:09. | |
something that gets people time I get around to speaking. It | :23:10. | :23:21. | |
exercised. I would like to suggest that in Scotland, membership of the | :23:22. | :23:25. | |
SNP is not insubstantial. There are quite a few members of the SNP and | :23:26. | :23:29. | |
at the SNP conference in Abdrdeen, three and a half thousand ddlegates | :23:30. | :23:35. | |
were there, there was a hugd cheer when it was mentioned the House of | :23:36. | :23:38. | |
Lords should be abolished. This is something that gets members of the | :23:39. | :23:42. | |
SNP excited. This is somethhng that is mentioned on the doorsteps when | :23:43. | :23:46. | |
is. Maybe not the first comds up, is. Maybe not the first comds | :23:47. | :23:51. | |
but Parliamentary reform and constitutional reform, a lot. On the | :23:52. | :23:57. | |
doorsteps in Scotland. I am particularly pleased this ddbate | :23:58. | :24:00. | |
follows the one on space policy because this place, these Houses of | :24:01. | :24:07. | |
Parliament, are in another world to the one which I normally inhabit. I | :24:08. | :24:12. | |
have spoken to people previously about why they should dislike the | :24:13. | :24:18. | |
House of Lords, within the SNP and within people I've spoken to their | :24:19. | :24:23. | |
is a visceral immediate dislike of the House of Lords, but I don't | :24:24. | :24:25. | |
think people should dislike it because they swan along in drmine | :24:26. | :24:28. | |
robes. They should dislike ht because of the level of powdr that | :24:29. | :24:34. | |
the House of Lords has. This is not a way to run a democracy. No one is | :24:35. | :24:41. | |
starting afresh, creating a democratic system would comd up with | :24:42. | :24:45. | |
is undemocratic, unwieldy, unaccountable second chamber we have | :24:46. | :24:49. | |
here. The member from Cleethorpes mentioned the UK models along and | :24:50. | :24:52. | |
that is what happens with Parliamentary reform and th`t is | :24:53. | :24:57. | |
what has happened with reform in this place as well. This is by | :24:58. | :25:08. | |
carbon was by its worst. Of the plan was devised by the | :25:09. | :25:11. | |
interparliamentary union, 77 of these are bicameral and onlx the UK, | :25:12. | :25:17. | |
Belgium, Zimbabwe and Liz also have ever read to legislators. Bdlgium | :25:18. | :25:20. | |
does not count because they are elated to the monarch and do not | :25:21. | :25:25. | |
vote on anything. The wonderful UK and approached defenders of | :25:26. | :25:27. | |
democracy, the mother of democracy, the mother of | :25:28. | :25:32. | |
Parliaments, are members of a select group who allow landed gentry to | :25:33. | :25:35. | |
make law for Arab countries. As Zimbabwe and Liz also, therd is | :25:36. | :25:43. | |
nothing good about this sittation. -- are countries. I would lhke to | :25:44. | :25:47. | |
take you back to 1997, things have changed if a bit since then, I was | :25:48. | :25:52. | |
still in Primary School, Hanson were topping the charts with bop and the | :25:53. | :25:57. | |
Labour Party were popular in Scotland. The Labour manifesto in | :25:58. | :25:59. | |
1997 said the House of Lords must be 1997 said the | :26:00. | :26:03. | |
reformed, the right of hereditary peers to sit and vote in thd house | :26:04. | :26:08. | |
of lords will be ended by statute. Despite this, despite a massive | :26:09. | :26:12. | |
majority of the Labour Partx in 1997 and a clear manifesto commitment to | :26:13. | :26:15. | |
rid our democratic system of hereditary peers, nearly 20 years on | :26:16. | :26:21. | |
we still have 92 of them. 92 lords who are allowed to make leghslation | :26:22. | :26:27. | |
Registry period Jews and thd defence talking to a peer recently `bout | :26:28. | :26:32. | |
mentioned is that there is ` here should be accrued -- hereditary | :26:33. | :26:36. | |
peerages and there was one who could trace her family out for 400 years, | :26:37. | :26:41. | |
but we all could do that because otherwise we wouldn't be here. It's | :26:42. | :26:47. | |
patronising and wrong to argue that a tide between one 400 years ago | :26:48. | :26:49. | |
should qualify anyone to make legislation. The Conservative | :26:50. | :26:52. | |
Government makes all sorts of claims about working life and being the | :26:53. | :26:55. | |
best way to get on and achidve a house, there is a wilful downplaying | :26:56. | :27:00. | |
of the in-built advantage that is accorded to those whose famhlies on | :27:01. | :27:04. | |
a large country states. Manx of these were won by force and held by | :27:05. | :27:10. | |
oppression. This is not a meritocracy. There is not a marriage | :27:11. | :27:12. | |
opposite in these islands are working hard does not necessarily | :27:13. | :27:16. | |
get you anywhere. Where you are born and family are does. Having said | :27:17. | :27:22. | |
that, I made clear my absolttes disagreements to any system which | :27:23. | :27:26. | |
accords a high-level import`nce to anyone since because of an `ccident | :27:27. | :27:30. | |
of birth. I want to make cldar my absolute lack of regard for the | :27:31. | :27:37. | |
appointment system for life peers. Crossbench peers speak to md about | :27:38. | :27:38. | |
how big is the progressive Salva how big is the | :27:39. | :27:44. | |
Kiir Bruzas and I agree, thdre was it seems to be thorough and they | :27:45. | :27:46. | |
have to make major commitments about how much time they will spend coming | :27:47. | :27:51. | |
into the House of Lords and their turnout. There is no compulsion for | :27:52. | :27:59. | |
the Prime Minister to ensurd that non-crossbench peers are appointed | :28:00. | :28:02. | |
this week, or even the crossbench peers actually, there is no middle | :28:03. | :28:08. | |
-- no limit on the size of the chamber. One of the best waxs to | :28:09. | :28:12. | |
receive an excellent salary for life is to delete money to the | :28:13. | :28:15. | |
Conservative Oliver Price and be appointed to the House of Lords I | :28:16. | :28:18. | |
want to expand on what was said earlier. | :28:19. | :28:26. | |
Since 1997, 152 former parliamentarians have been hn all | :28:27. | :28:32. | |
bold. 20 of these were given peerages within five years of losing | :28:33. | :28:38. | |
an election, within five ye`rs of being rejected by the electorate, | :28:39. | :28:44. | |
they were given a seat in that other house, after people had rejdcted | :28:45. | :28:54. | |
them, a ridiculous situation - - 152 former parliamentarians have all | :28:55. | :28:59. | |
been in all bold. This had `n effect on the behaviour of the House of | :29:00. | :29:03. | |
Lords, changing turnout figtres for example, but they made the House of | :29:04. | :29:07. | |
Lords more powerful. People there no felt they had more of a right to be | :29:08. | :29:11. | |
there, more of a right to m`ke decisions about legislation. That is | :29:12. | :29:15. | |
not the case. The House of Lords is still a legislature that is on | :29:16. | :29:20. | |
elected and they should not be making law for this country. There | :29:21. | :29:24. | |
is no accountability. Members of the public are not able to have access | :29:25. | :29:30. | |
to their peers, to the Lords, they do not know | :29:31. | :29:35. | |
out of touch and there is no compulsion upon them to listen to | :29:36. | :29:38. | |
people in the general community What they learn about the gdneral | :29:39. | :29:41. | |
community is quite often garnered from newspapers and we know that is | :29:42. | :29:47. | |
not a true reflection of society. House of Lords, as well, I want to | :29:48. | :29:51. | |
see is massively lacking in diversity. It has been menthoned | :29:52. | :29:55. | |
before by various people but currently on 26% of peers are | :29:56. | :29:58. | |
female, even worse than herd, and a record in the House of Commons is | :29:59. | :30:03. | |
deplorable. In June 2015, there were more members who had been pders for | :30:04. | :30:07. | |
more than 30 years than there were peers and 50. And there werd only | :30:08. | :30:14. | |
two peers and 40, only two hn the entire House of Lords. This is | :30:15. | :30:20. | |
hugely unfavourable for elective politics in the UK and does not | :30:21. | :30:22. | |
constitute representative ddmocracy. The youngest age, a current member | :30:23. | :30:30. | |
of the House of Lords, 32. @lthough I fundamentally disagree with | :30:31. | :30:33. | |
appointment for a life, it hs bizarre that have a religiots at | :30:34. | :30:37. | |
should exclude anyone who I would class as young -- desire th`t over | :30:38. | :30:46. | |
legislature. People look and see a bunch of old people they cannot | :30:47. | :30:50. | |
relate to and if you take the elected members as a whole we are | :30:51. | :30:53. | |
still woefully unrepresentative hard work of some of the pedrs and | :30:54. | :30:58. | |
this has been alluded to before and I would like to mention it, | :30:59. | :31:02. | |
particularly crossbenchers, is that some of them worked very hard, but | :31:03. | :31:06. | |
this cannot be used to legitimise the existence of a second chamber. | :31:07. | :31:10. | |
The second chamber is incredibly expensive. Crossbenchers, some of | :31:11. | :31:16. | |
them, have been very active in their areas of work, and some continue to | :31:17. | :31:22. | |
be very active in their are`s and fields of expertise. But thdre is no | :31:23. | :31:28. | |
check on whether or not thex do continue. As was said earlidr by one | :31:29. | :31:33. | |
of the other members from the Conservatives, people are expected | :31:34. | :31:35. | |
out very quickly -- people `re out very quickly -- people | :31:36. | :31:44. | |
ex-experts very quickly. Thdir expertise goes away very quhckly. | :31:45. | :31:47. | |
Going back to reform, the House of Commons has utterly failed to amend | :31:48. | :31:52. | |
or rewrite the Parliament acts, to make meaningful change to the House | :31:53. | :31:55. | |
of Lords for the best part of 2 years and, actually, we havd not | :31:56. | :31:58. | |
made much in the weird change to the powers of the House of Lords the | :31:59. | :32:03. | |
Parliament act of 1911 and subsequently 1949, which was just | :32:04. | :32:08. | |
tinkering. As remarked prevhously, I do not believe the procedurds in | :32:09. | :32:12. | |
this place, in The Commons, are fit for purpose. Given the opportunity, | :32:13. | :32:17. | |
I would pay up the standing orders and start again, dramatically | :32:18. | :32:20. | |
reducing the level of executive privilege. According to the | :32:21. | :32:23. | |
Government of the day, and H would require the Government to lose their | :32:24. | :32:30. | |
majority former often. The House of Lords is even worse. It is `ll done | :32:31. | :32:34. | |
on the basis of convention `nd that is why the Government got into such | :32:35. | :32:42. | |
a pickle and packed -- on t`x credits. Because there was ` | :32:43. | :32:45. | |
convention and it was not in legislation anywhere. On paper, the | :32:46. | :32:48. | |
House of Lords is an incredhbly powerful institution and th`t is | :32:49. | :32:53. | |
something we have to change. It is not a revising second chambdr and | :32:54. | :32:57. | |
anybody who makes the case for a revising second chamber cannot hold | :32:58. | :33:00. | |
up the House of Lords and s`y, this is the place to revise legislation. | :33:01. | :33:04. | |
It can still introduce prim`ry legislation. They are not elected | :33:05. | :33:08. | |
and can introduce legislation on the half of the people of this country | :33:09. | :33:11. | |
and they should not be doing that. Yes. A powerful | :33:12. | :33:18. | |
knows from my contribution H share her ambition to do away with an | :33:19. | :33:23. | |
unelected second chamber, btt she could explain how she and hdr party | :33:24. | :33:29. | |
support membership of the Etropean Union, where real power lies with an | :33:30. | :33:34. | |
unelected European Commission. The European Parliament is really a | :33:35. | :33:39. | |
sideshow. The honourable melber makes an interesting point which I | :33:40. | :33:42. | |
am sure will be brought up `t length during European debates. Wh`t we are | :33:43. | :33:45. | |
discussing today, though, is the debate on the House of Lords and, | :33:46. | :33:50. | |
power to change, the abilitx to power to change, the abilitx to | :33:51. | :33:55. | |
change, because we in this place can make a new Parliament act, the | :33:56. | :33:58. | |
ability of elected members. We can do that and make mass changd to the | :33:59. | :34:02. | |
House of Lords and we should be making big change to the Hotse of | :34:03. | :34:08. | |
Lords. Yes... With my honourable friend agree it would be a benefit | :34:09. | :34:12. | |
if we enter just some of thd ways of working of the European Parliament | :34:13. | :34:15. | |
and European Commission to this place, for example the European | :34:16. | :34:21. | |
Parliament has the power to sack the entire European Commission. Would | :34:22. | :34:25. | |
she support the right to sack the entire House of Lords, as I think | :34:26. | :34:27. | |
the honourable gentleman opposite was referring to? That would be | :34:28. | :34:32. | |
brilliant. I think actually the Conservative Government would have | :34:33. | :34:35. | |
been quite keen to sack the entire House of Lords at an earlier point | :34:36. | :34:40. | |
in this parliamentary session. Last time. I thank her but I would remind | :34:41. | :34:44. | |
her and her colleagues this chamber has the power to sack the | :34:45. | :34:53. | |
Government. I will come to the end of my speech so I will wrap up. The | :34:54. | :34:58. | |
power of the House of Lords is dramatically higher than it should | :34:59. | :35:05. | |
be. The ability for the House of Lords to appoint people that were | :35:06. | :35:11. | |
rejected at the ballot box, people who went into that House, rtbbing | :35:12. | :35:18. | |
their hands in glee, at that on taxable ?45,000 a year which they | :35:19. | :35:24. | |
can now earn. The expenses system for the House of Lords, the payment | :35:25. | :35:26. | |
system for the House of Lords, they get ?300 a day were cl`ssed as | :35:27. | :35:33. | |
an untaxed allowance, that hs abominable. It should not bd | :35:34. | :35:36. | |
happening. The composition of the House of Lords is ridiculous. It is | :35:37. | :35:40. | |
unrepresentative and it shotld under no circumstances have heredhtary | :35:41. | :35:45. | |
peers and those appointed bx religious organisations, whdther the | :35:46. | :35:48. | |
Church of England or any other religious organisation. I do not | :35:49. | :35:52. | |
think there is any place for religious appointments in the | :35:53. | :35:58. | |
legislative system. I think lifetime appointments to any legislature are | :35:59. | :36:00. | |
undemocratic. There are peers sitting through they that h`ve been | :36:01. | :36:05. | |
peers for 70 years. 70 years is an incredible length of time and | :36:06. | :36:08. | |
although some of them are no longer active, they still have the right to | :36:09. | :36:12. | |
trip in there and vote on things. How good are you going to bd at | :36:13. | :36:16. | |
voting on things if you havd been up here for 70 years? There enough you | :36:17. | :36:19. | |
have a length of experience behind you, but most people are wanting to | :36:20. | :36:24. | |
set and put their feet up and watch TV by the time they get to that age. | :36:25. | :36:31. | |
Appointments for high regions party donors are wrong. Thex should | :36:32. | :36:37. | |
not be happening. The House of Lords is beyond reform. We have sden | :36:38. | :36:41. | |
people have tried to reform it in the past and we are still not at the | :36:42. | :36:46. | |
stage where it is elected, `nd accountable second chamber. We need | :36:47. | :36:54. | |
to abolish it. Here, here. Thank you, Madame Deputy Speaker. Could I | :36:55. | :37:00. | |
begin by genuinely congratulating the honourable member | :37:01. | :37:04. | |
Dunbartonshire on opening this debate and for his very colourful | :37:05. | :37:07. | |
and well-informed speech. I have to say, during the course of the | :37:08. | :37:11. | |
debate, there have been manx good points made by honourable mdmber 's, | :37:12. | :37:15. | |
and I want to emphasise the fact that point is made for the lember | :37:16. | :37:22. | |
for North Ayrshire and Arran. We must have a debate. What is very | :37:23. | :37:26. | |
important is I think we recognise the complexity and the diffhculty of | :37:27. | :37:30. | |
reform but we must, to begin with, have an honest debate. I wotld also | :37:31. | :37:34. | |
like to congratulate the Scottish National Party members on, | :37:35. | :37:41. | |
large, their consistency and the uniformity of their arguments. They | :37:42. | :37:43. | |
showed discipline. The numbdr of times I heard the reference to the | :37:44. | :37:49. | |
Chinese people's assembly, H wouldn't like to see, but the member | :37:50. | :37:56. | |
for Inverclyde, I have to s`y, did speak about reform rather than | :37:57. | :38:01. | |
abolition. That will be somdthing I welcome because I think it hs | :38:02. | :38:05. | |
healthy to have a differencd of emphasis in any political group is | :38:06. | :38:08. | |
not a complete difference. H would argue that there are a few people | :38:09. | :38:15. | |
who would genuinely attempt to see, that they does not need to be a | :38:16. | :38:19. | |
fundamental change made to important to remember the bhggest | :38:20. | :38:26. | |
change to the competition of the second chamber came under ehght | :38:27. | :38:28. | |
Labour Government when we sdcure the abolition of most of the hereditary | :38:29. | :38:33. | |
peers -- Labour Government. That, I believe, was the start of a reform | :38:34. | :38:39. | |
we must have as soon as is practicable. It must be in radical | :38:40. | :38:42. | |
reform as well. I see radic`l, rather than abolition of thd second | :38:43. | :38:48. | |
chamber, because I am not convinced we should move away from a bicameral | :38:49. | :38:56. | |
parliamentary system. Thanks for giving way. Clearly we have a | :38:57. | :38:59. | |
difference of view on this but he says, you know, we have not had | :39:00. | :39:02. | |
reform that there has not rdally There has been a lot of talk | :39:03. | :39:08. | |
reform that there has not rdally been debate about the alternative of | :39:09. | :39:09. | |
a unicameral parliament and that is what I would like to see. I respect | :39:10. | :39:16. | |
my honourable friend's use ht one of the discussions we do reallx need to | :39:17. | :39:22. | |
have in this chamber is that, and he is perfectly right -- my honourable | :39:23. | :39:26. | |
friend's views. actually need a second chamber to | :39:27. | :39:32. | |
begin with. I am not of that view but I willing to take part hn a | :39:33. | :39:35. | |
debate that we should have ` bicameral system with two chambers. | :39:36. | :39:39. | |
I would argue there is a nedd for that second chamber so we c`n | :39:40. | :39:44. | |
scrutinise, modify, suggest amendments to and to delay | :39:45. | :39:48. | |
legislation which, I think, always, should emanate from this Hotse. It | :39:49. | :39:58. | |
is adorable we are seeking sustained attempts not to introduce more moxie | :39:59. | :40:00. | |
-- it is deplorable. That wd trying to stop their abilitx to hold | :40:01. | :40:09. | |
the executive to account. Importantly, we should remelber this | :40:10. | :40:13. | |
Government has appointed more conservative peers than Margaret | :40:14. | :40:16. | |
Thatcher did in her 11 years as promised. We should also relember, | :40:17. | :40:22. | |
and of course there is a debate taking place at the moment with | :40:23. | :40:27. | |
regard to the report which H would argue is all about underminhng the | :40:28. | :40:32. | |
ability of the other place to hold a Government to account, and we know | :40:33. | :40:39. | |
our Government is trying to control and weakened the Lords and why | :40:40. | :40:44. | |
they're doing that, not bec`use they believe in democracy and have | :40:45. | :40:47. | |
scrutinised and challenged, no because they | :40:48. | :40:51. | |
matter where that might be coming from. The issue is not about the | :40:52. | :40:55. | |
primacy of the House of Comlons or the House of Lords, it is all about | :40:56. | :41:00. | |
the Government trying to minimise challenge and seeking to push aside | :41:01. | :41:06. | |
opposition. As we know, in the last parliament, a great deal of time and | :41:07. | :41:09. | |
effort was spent in beating reform of the House of Lords. Sadlx, that | :41:10. | :41:15. | |
came to nothing -- was spent debating reform. Because thd | :41:16. | :41:20. | |
Government refused to have ` constructive dialogue with this side | :41:21. | :41:24. | |
of the House and because thd Prime Minister did not deliver | :41:25. | :41:29. | |
promise and Conservative backbenchers defended the status | :41:30. | :41:33. | |
quo. What is needed now is ` nationwide debate about the kind of | :41:34. | :41:38. | |
democracy we need for the 21st-century. The old 19th-century, | :41:39. | :41:45. | |
highly centralised nation state based on London is surely a thing of | :41:46. | :41:49. | |
the past. Decentralisation lust be the order of the day. Not jtst in | :41:50. | :41:54. | |
Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland but also into the regions and | :41:55. | :42:00. | |
localities of England as well. There is, therefore, I would argud, a | :42:01. | :42:02. | |
strong case for a second ch`mber. be made of representatives of the | :42:03. | :42:10. | |
nations and regions of the TK, but possibly also people drawn from | :42:11. | :42:12. | |
local Government. Such a second chamber might be made by indirectly | :42:13. | :42:21. | |
or directly elected presentdd as an such a chamber would have the | :42:22. | :42:27. | |
advantage, I believe, of containing individuals from all part of the | :42:28. | :42:32. | |
United Kingdom. I have to admit this point. It is a shame most of the | :42:33. | :42:34. | |
members of the other place `re members of the other place `re | :42:35. | :42:40. | |
either drawn from or have they focus on London and the south-east of | :42:41. | :42:44. | |
England. -- have their focus on That cannot be acceptable. When we | :42:45. | :42:51. | |
speak about the fundamental change in our Constitution it is ilportant | :42:52. | :42:55. | |
to remember three things. Fhrstly, there has to be debate and dialogue | :42:56. | :43:00. | |
between all political partids, and, if possible, a high degree of | :43:01. | :43:04. | |
consensus achieved about wh`t kind of changes are needed. If it is | :43:05. | :43:10. | |
believed political advantagd is in motive behind any constituthonal | :43:11. | :43:13. | |
change, then that change will not work effectively and will f`il, | :43:14. | :43:21. | |
ultimately. Secondly, Madamd Deputy Speaker, it is important not to see | :43:22. | :43:26. | |
Lords reform in isolation from other changes needed for our democracy. I | :43:27. | :43:30. | |
have already referred to devolution but there is, I believe, in our | :43:31. | :43:34. | |
country, it widespread thirst for popular engagement. No longdr are | :43:35. | :43:40. | |
people prepared to simpler setback and allow those unelected to make | :43:41. | :43:46. | |
important decisions. It is therefore important to have a broad | :43:47. | :43:49. | |
perspective, when we are considering changes to our democracy. | :43:50. | :43:54. | |
The third point is this. We must not believe there can be a top-down | :43:55. | :43:59. | |
approach towards political reform. approach towards political | :44:00. | :44:06. | |
We must not believe we are hn the repository of all knowledge on these | :44:07. | :44:08. | |
matters. The people of our country needs to be fully engaged in the | :44:09. | :44:12. | |
debate about democratic then you will. That is why come narrow view, | :44:13. | :44:16. | |
there needs to be a people's constitutional convention. ,- in | :44:17. | :44:25. | |
our. Not to leader of the great and good, it should be drawing hn people | :44:26. | :44:32. | |
from all walks of life and `ll parts of the country. It needs to be | :44:33. | :44:34. | |
focused in its discussions `nd also needs to inspire and India s | :44:35. | :44:39. | |
people so they can give our democracy fresh life and frdsh | :44:40. | :44:49. | |
inspiration. -- inspire and infuse. The letter by adding my | :44:50. | :44:52. | |
congratulations to the membdr from West Dumbartonshire bring this | :44:53. | :44:56. | |
debate and my thanks to the bank bench committee for guarding it He | :44:57. | :45:01. | |
said it was his beginner 's plea when he made his case but hd knocked | :45:02. | :45:05. | |
any sense of being a beginndr into a cocked hat with his speech. The | :45:06. | :45:12. | |
tendency he hold we would forgive him for Celtic had ventilathon, he | :45:13. | :45:16. | |
was kind enough later on to mention he counted Cornwall as part of the | :45:17. | :45:24. | |
Celtic fringe and as someond who might not represent Cornwall but has | :45:25. | :45:25. | |
a Cornish name, I'm glad will include me in that grotp. I | :45:26. | :45:32. | |
will try not enter Ismet hyperventilate either. He m`de a | :45:33. | :45:38. | |
powerful case and a good ond. We also had the opportunity to compare | :45:39. | :45:42. | |
and contrast from the previous debate on space policy, manx quotes | :45:43. | :45:49. | |
from David Bowie, this time we had many quotes from Robert Burns. I | :45:50. | :45:54. | |
won't leave members present and those reading Hansard later to make | :45:55. | :45:58. | |
their own conclusions about what the relative merits of those basking | :45:59. | :46:07. | |
want to link -- those two p`rts may be. I should all echo a point made | :46:08. | :46:14. | |
by a number of colleagues dtring the course of the debate and ask where | :46:15. | :46:16. | |
on earth are the Liberal Delocrats? Where have they got to? Manx of them | :46:17. | :46:25. | |
are in the House of Lords. They are produced to a small number of MPs | :46:26. | :46:29. | |
and none of them are here today I regard that as a real tragedy | :46:30. | :46:34. | |
because in the last Parliamdnt and in previous parliaments thex have | :46:35. | :46:37. | |
been the people standing up amongst others, not the only ones, `nd | :46:38. | :46:44. | |
pressing the case for reforl of the Lords and other reforms of | :46:45. | :46:49. | |
constitutional reform and all of a sudden, when they are hugelx | :46:50. | :46:51. | |
overrepresented in the Housd of Lords and relatively to the ribs in | :46:52. | :46:56. | |
addition here, they are nowhere to be seen. A cavity's cat when it | :46:57. | :47:01. | |
comes to the reform of the Lords and this debate here and that is a | :47:02. | :47:05. | |
tragedy and the bee will dr`w their own conclusions about the rdlative | :47:06. | :47:10. | |
levels of interest as a restlt. The honourable gentleman for Western | :47:11. | :47:15. | |
Barton showed encapsulated ` series of criticisms that have been echoed | :47:16. | :47:19. | |
widely by many members. I whll not go through them in huge det`il for | :47:20. | :47:23. | |
the purposes of my summing tp but broadly speaking he made thd point | :47:24. | :47:24. | |
in a bright young ways that the level of democratic legitim`cy in | :47:25. | :47:29. | |
the House of Lords is incredibly low. The only group that our elected | :47:30. | :47:34. | |
are the hereditary peers and they are elected from an elector`l | :47:35. | :47:39. | |
college. There are other crhticisms that but the central charge that the | :47:40. | :47:42. | |
House of Lords is large and the bishops should not be there and | :47:43. | :47:47. | |
hereditary is should not either The central issue is the legitilacy or | :47:48. | :47:52. | |
lack of it, of the democrathc principle in the Lords as it is | :47:53. | :47:57. | |
currently constituted. I sh`ll say, I agree. If you look at my personal | :47:58. | :48:03. | |
voting record in the 2005 P`rliament I think the honourable gentleman | :48:04. | :48:07. | |
from Luton North meant and we had a series of votes, my first P`rliament | :48:08. | :48:12. | |
here, and I voted consistently for anything that would increasd the | :48:13. | :48:15. | |
level of democratic involvelent in the House of Lords in those votes. | :48:16. | :48:22. | |
In the last Parliament we h`d an incredibly long and drawn-ott | :48:23. | :48:25. | |
attempt to reform the House of Lords. I don't think anyone can | :48:26. | :48:30. | |
determined for several generations attempt, | :48:31. | :48:34. | |
determined for several generations to reform the house of lords and | :48:35. | :48:37. | |
make it more democratically legitimate. I voted consistdntly | :48:38. | :48:41. | |
throughout that for those rdforms as well, even though the form of | :48:42. | :48:47. | |
election might not have been to everyone's taste, not even to my | :48:48. | :48:51. | |
personal taste, but it was ` step in the right direction, had its gone | :48:52. | :48:55. | |
through. I cannot argue frol a personal or principal point of view | :48:56. | :49:00. | |
that the central charge is not valid. That is why the Consdrvative | :49:01. | :49:06. | |
Party's election manifesto said we remain committed in principle to | :49:07. | :49:13. | |
reform of the House of Lords. Our approach is not driven by opposition | :49:14. | :49:18. | |
West Dumbartonshire cosmic central charge or the central chargd that | :49:19. | :49:20. | |
has been echoed by so many other B but today. -- Western Barton sure's | :49:21. | :49:27. | |
central charge. He has spokdn much about making it second them admit | :49:28. | :49:34. | |
more democratic but how will he deal with prime ministerial Peter Nitsch, | :49:35. | :49:37. | |
the real problem? If I can `sk the honourable gentleman to hold | :49:38. | :49:41. | |
resources, hope later on. I'm sure he will pick me | :49:42. | :49:46. | |
up if I haven't tested suffhciently. I think, I should declare a small | :49:47. | :49:55. | |
non-financial, but family interest in this in that my wife, from a | :49:56. | :50:03. | |
couple of years ago, is appointed to the House of Lords. Had to point out | :50:04. | :50:07. | |
to her that I had already voted multiple times and had a long track | :50:08. | :50:11. | |
record for voting to abolish heard anyone like her from the Hotse of | :50:12. | :50:16. | |
Lords. She has forgiven me `nd relations over family breakfast | :50:17. | :50:19. | |
table are not too strange, `t the house will be delighted to hear but | :50:20. | :50:22. | |
I would like to assure everxone my views have not changed even though | :50:23. | :50:25. | |
there is a family involvement on the other end and I would like, given | :50:26. | :50:29. | |
the chance, vote to make thdm far more democratically to -- would did | :50:30. | :50:37. | |
it. I will. Did -- I also started by issuing, not entirely correctly | :50:38. | :50:42. | |
that the SNP was exclusivelx and purely a unicameral list party. I | :50:43. | :50:47. | |
think we've heard support for that view for many members during the | :50:48. | :50:54. | |
course of this debate and I think, to some degree, from my fridnd from | :50:55. | :50:59. | |
Cleethorpes as well. I'm hope I m writing Dutchman of putting | :51:00. | :51:03. | |
anyone's mad but I think I heard some degree of qualified willingness | :51:04. | :51:06. | |
to consider, at least, a more democratically legitimate sdcond | :51:07. | :51:10. | |
click -- chamber as an alternative to the fevered view of a unhcameral | :51:11. | :51:13. | |
list view. Can the honourable gentleman put me right? The view of | :51:14. | :51:21. | |
the SNP and the Scottish Government was had we won the referendtm we | :51:22. | :51:24. | |
would not have needed a second chamber in Scotland because the | :51:25. | :51:26. | |
Scottish plan is working effectively. This Parliament -- | :51:27. | :51:30. | |
Parliament views the SNP is not working there for a second chamber | :51:31. | :51:36. | |
is beneficial but it must bd democratic. That is very helpful and | :51:37. | :51:41. | |
I think assists us all in clarifying Freddie SNP's view is. -- where the | :51:42. | :51:49. | |
SNP. That leaves me to talk about what the opportunities are for | :51:50. | :51:53. | |
reform because I am the govdrnor -- and the Government would certainly | :51:54. | :51:57. | |
favour keeping a second chalber and making it more effective if the | :51:58. | :52:00. | |
opportunity presented itself. I think there are huge advant`ges to | :52:01. | :52:06. | |
having an effective second chamber, certainly here. The reason H say | :52:07. | :52:11. | |
that is that often the level of scrutiny which is imposed on any | :52:12. | :52:17. | |
Government in that second chamber is not a comfortable experiencd, not | :52:18. | :52:18. | |
for previous Labour governmdnts or even coalition governments | :52:19. | :52:26. | |
either. Even though it is not necessarily easy. Ayes coalhtion. It | :52:27. | :52:34. | |
can be incredibly frustrating, but I believe it's democratically | :52:35. | :52:35. | |
justified and democraticallx desirable and it results, at least | :52:36. | :52:41. | |
in Westminster, I think, in better and. I went along to the Lords | :52:42. | :52:47. | |
yesterday and I stood at thd bar of the house listening to their debate | :52:48. | :52:51. | |
on the Strathclyde review. H challenge anybody to believd that | :52:52. | :52:56. | |
was not a high-quality and capable discussion. It was at a verx high | :52:57. | :53:03. | |
level, very capable and verx clearly expressed. They have a great deal to | :53:04. | :53:06. | |
offer, whether or not their legitimacy is high or low. | :53:07. | :53:11. | |
Therefore, I think we would be the poorer, Arab democracy would be | :53:12. | :53:12. | |
poorer, without eight revishng second chamber. -- our democracy. As | :53:13. | :53:22. | |
a number of colleagues have said, we have to be careful about thdir | :53:23. | :53:25. | |
powers and their composition. I think the problem is not agreeing on | :53:26. | :53:30. | |
the need for reform, but rather how. I think the honourable membdr for | :53:31. | :53:33. | |
Stirling make this point, s`ying we should not be discussing whdther or | :53:34. | :53:38. | |
not change is needed, we should talk about how and what kind of change | :53:39. | :53:42. | |
could be achieved. That is where I think we against all of us `gainst a | :53:43. | :53:47. | |
very serious and fundamental practical problem. Which is that | :53:48. | :53:53. | |
while many people agree that some kind of reform is vital, many people | :53:54. | :53:59. | |
agree that improved democratically dissimilar sea for the upper house | :54:00. | :54:04. | |
is essential, agreeing on the forum of that change, creating a | :54:05. | :54:10. | |
democratic consensus about what it should look like as opposed to that | :54:11. | :54:15. | |
there should be something is a great deal harder, | :54:16. | :54:19. | |
politics is all about. It's about forging a democratic consensus in a | :54:20. | :54:22. | |
way that is necessary. I thhnk the honourable gentleman making this | :54:23. | :54:27. | |
about any for a Democratic debate on this issue. In order to forge a | :54:28. | :54:31. | |
democratic consensus not thd changes to -- required, but that it should | :54:32. | :54:36. | |
be of this format is not th`t, and that is where the previous `ttempt | :54:37. | :54:40. | |
in the last parliament came unstuck. It was that they were far too many | :54:41. | :54:45. | |
competing attempts and recipes about what the revised House of Lords | :54:46. | :54:51. | |
might look like under a plapue of different -- plethora of different | :54:52. | :54:57. | |
approaches. What came unstuck was not a lack of ideas, what c`me | :54:58. | :55:02. | |
unstuck was that they were too many ideas and not enough people agreed | :55:03. | :55:05. | |
on any one of them, therefore those who oppose reform in the first place | :55:06. | :55:10. | |
were able to Andrew. I give way I agree very much with the honourable | :55:11. | :55:16. | |
gentleman. I would make the point, comment using one of the lessons to | :55:17. | :55:21. | |
be learnt is that for any fundamental reform to take place | :55:22. | :55:25. | |
successfully, there must be cross-party dialogue and debate and | :55:26. | :55:28. | |
an attempt to achieve a consensus across the house? I would broaden | :55:29. | :55:37. | |
the point and say that for `ny constitutional change it is | :55:38. | :55:42. | |
certainly hugely helpful. It is not essential but it is hugely helpful | :55:43. | :55:45. | |
for most constitutional changes if they are done with a degree of | :55:46. | :55:48. | |
cross-party agreement, if only because one of the fundamental | :55:49. | :55:52. | |
points of Britain was the unwritten constitution is that you nedd not | :55:53. | :55:55. | |
only to be happy with the w`y things work when you are in Governlent you | :55:56. | :55:59. | |
need to bear in mind that at some point in future you might not be in | :56:00. | :56:03. | |
Government and you need to be happy when insurers on the other fit and | :56:04. | :56:07. | |
you are in opposition. That smoke when the shoe. Good governmdnts and | :56:08. | :56:12. | |
good oppositions remember that point and try to proceed with caution and | :56:13. | :56:19. | |
agreement wherever possible. We can be done it should be. Our challenge | :56:20. | :56:22. | |
is not necessary, the challenges to define | :56:23. | :56:29. | |
precisely what kind of change should be, what form it should takd, and to | :56:30. | :56:35. | |
form a sufficiently large c`n sentence -- consensus to ovdrcome | :56:36. | :56:39. | |
the forces of inertia because of not careful they will naturally tend to | :56:40. | :56:43. | |
win. In a show or entropy, but that is what happened last time. With the | :56:44. | :56:48. | |
Minister agree that part of the difficulty in writing at a consensus | :56:49. | :56:53. | |
is lots of the vested interdsts that are served by the Lords and history | :56:54. | :56:57. | |
of the appointees to that body and it would be useful to bring in | :56:58. | :56:59. | |
members of the public to get that more open outlook on what a new | :57:00. | :57:05. | |
constitutional arrangement light be? That is why many people who | :57:06. | :57:12. | |
an increase in democratic legitimacy, that is one of the | :57:13. | :57:15. | |
principles that underlies their support, that if you have a | :57:16. | :57:19. | |
democratically elected second chamber, then it is much harder for | :57:20. | :57:23. | |
forces of reaction and spechal interest to win through, because the | :57:24. | :57:27. | |
antidote to most of those things in most cases is more democrathc | :57:28. | :57:34. | |
involvement. I think her qudstioning causes its own answer, if I can put | :57:35. | :57:38. | |
it that way. I would support that point. Our problem is chooshng, not | :57:39. | :57:46. | |
if, but how. There are too lany different forms of possible | :57:47. | :57:50. | |
elections that could be looked at at the moment. There is the alternative | :57:51. | :57:55. | |
vote, dozens of different forms of proportional representation. I get | :57:56. | :58:00. | |
regular letters from people who are cleaving to one or more of dozens of | :58:01. | :58:05. | |
different kinds of electoral system and I'm not sure what the Ddmocratic | :58:06. | :58:11. | |
consists us will be on which one would be right but without ` | :58:12. | :58:16. | |
one, we will not win as argted on -- one, we will not win as argted on -- | :58:17. | :58:22. | |
and get it done. We had a contribution from my honour`ble | :58:23. | :58:26. | |
friend who suggested somethhng based on occupation rather than gdographic | :58:27. | :58:29. | |
constituencies, all of thesd are possible and would create | :58:30. | :58:31. | |
alternative franchises that would be less clashing, would not cl`sh | :58:32. | :58:36. | |
directly with that of this chamber and I think finding a non-clashing | :58:37. | :58:42. | |
democratic mandate would be to the advantage. Until such a thing can be | :58:43. | :58:45. | |
done, we are inevitably on the back fit. | :58:46. | :58:50. | |
On that point, and I apprechate him/her giving way, I hope he is not | :58:51. | :58:56. | |
saying it is too difficult `nd we therefore shouldn't do it. @s the | :58:57. | :58:59. | |
honourable member they suggdsted it may be a good time for this | :59:00. | :59:03. | |
Conservative Government to think about taking this forward. Hf we | :59:04. | :59:07. | |
have hardly any members herd willing to pitch up that are keen to retain | :59:08. | :59:09. | |
there clearly is an appetitd for the Lords in their current | :59:10. | :59:14. | |
there clearly is an appetitd for reform and now is the time. Madame | :59:15. | :59:18. | |
Deputy Speaker Speaker, the lady made a series of powerful points | :59:19. | :59:22. | |
which I agree with but on that one I think I will have respect to | :59:23. | :59:26. | |
disagree with her. For couple of reasons. Firstly, we have hdard from | :59:27. | :59:29. | |
a number of different sides, that the level of interest in reform of | :59:30. | :59:37. | |
the Lords unprompted, down the dog and a dock, is remarkably low. I | :59:38. | :59:42. | |
suspect it would be high at the Bishop's bar but that is probably | :59:43. | :59:46. | |
the only one where it would, as a topic of conversation. I thhnk | :59:47. | :59:49. | |
honourable members on both sides are right to say that when prompted many | :59:50. | :59:53. | |
would agree it is an import`nt issue to reform the Lords in some way but | :59:54. | :59:59. | |
without that prompt, it ranks a long way down people's list of priorities | :00:00. | :00:05. | |
and the difficulty is that, until we have formed and forged a delocratic | :00:06. | :00:09. | |
consensus, and it is more dhfficult for all of us to form some kind of | :00:10. | :00:13. | |
is low down the list of priorities, is low down the list of priorities, | :00:14. | :00:17. | |
because other things are more urgent, immediate or a loom larger, | :00:18. | :00:23. | |
then I think it would be wrong to overstate the appetite. I think it | :00:24. | :00:27. | |
would be wrong to ignore thd practical difficulties of doing | :00:28. | :00:34. | |
this, and therefore I don't want to assume that because something is | :00:35. | :00:39. | |
desirable but not simple it can therefore be wished and produced | :00:40. | :00:44. | |
with the wave of a magic wand. We all understand, as elected | :00:45. | :00:47. | |
politicians, how hard this hs, and we can all see the Trail of failed | :00:48. | :00:53. | |
attempt to make big reform changes, to see how difficult other people, | :00:54. | :00:58. | |
equally talented politicians, some extremely talented, have fotnd it. | :00:59. | :01:00. | |
there is possibility for sm`ller That | :01:01. | :01:05. | |
there is possibility for sm`ller steps to be made. In the last | :01:06. | :01:08. | |
Parliament there were a serhes of small reforms. I do not want to let | :01:09. | :01:13. | |
anyone get the impression wd think small reforms are a substittte for | :01:14. | :01:16. | |
more thoroughgoing things, but the progress in the right way, hn the | :01:17. | :01:19. | |
right direction in many casds, and I think it would be wrong of ts to let | :01:20. | :01:24. | |
the best bit enemy of the good. In the last Parliament, with the | :01:25. | :01:31. | |
agreement of this House, whdn it was chosen to change the rules on | :01:32. | :01:33. | |
retirement of members we agreed with that and it was a step on the right | :01:34. | :01:38. | |
direction. There are many other things currently being disctssed in | :01:39. | :01:41. | |
the Lords and being led by senior parliamentarians at that end of the | :01:42. | :01:43. | |
building which would further reduce building | :01:44. | :01:47. | |
the size of the Lords, would look at the time served and ages, all of | :01:48. | :01:50. | |
those types of things, and they may not be to everybody's paste as a | :01:51. | :01:54. | |
complete answer. Many do not necessarily go to the point about | :01:55. | :01:59. | |
democratic legitimacy, but there are steps in the right direction -- | :02:00. | :02:03. | |
everybody's taste. I think we should not say that because it does not | :02:04. | :02:10. | |
fulfil our perfect world scdnario we will not give the time of d`y and | :02:11. | :02:13. | |
therefore I would encourage manners of the House of Lords but also those | :02:14. | :02:18. | |
here present and others elsdwhere, Madame Deputy Speaker, anybody | :02:19. | :02:21. | |
interested, to try to address the question both of how to achheve | :02:22. | :02:25. | |
of franchise will you choosd that as it should be, but how, which | :02:26. | :02:31. | |
of franchise will you choosd that will not clash with the franchise of | :02:32. | :02:35. | |
this chamber as well? What level of powers, Madame Deputy Speakdr, do | :02:36. | :02:39. | |
people think should be approved for the upper chamber? There have - has | :02:40. | :02:44. | |
been some criticism of the Strathclyde review during the course | :02:45. | :02:48. | |
of this debate. I would gently suggest to those critical that while | :02:49. | :02:52. | |
they may wish it had a broader mandate, the Strathclyde review | :02:53. | :02:56. | |
does, at its heart, in the words making the primacy of the elected | :02:57. | :03:07. | |
house apply -- aim towards. I hope people can accept that is ddsirable | :03:08. | :03:11. | |
and, depending on which of the options followed, we would love | :03:12. | :03:17. | |
towards something which has a much more regular rise and clearly | :03:18. | :03:20. | |
defined system of powers between this House and the operetta House | :03:21. | :03:25. | |
under its current formulation. Finally, Madame Deputy Speaker, | :03:26. | :03:30. | |
there are a series of opportunities people are putting together, options | :03:31. | :03:33. | |
being considered, about length of stay for people in the oper` House | :03:34. | :03:36. | |
under the existing system. Retirement ages and the likd as well | :03:37. | :03:42. | |
-- per House. All of these things, I think, I vital, but I would | :03:43. | :03:43. | |
encourage all here present hf we are encourage all here present | :03:44. | :03:48. | |
to have reform to help create this democratic debate and perhaps for a | :03:49. | :03:50. | |
consensus towards getting a conclusion. Madame Deputy Speaker, I | :03:51. | :03:55. | |
want to give the honourable member for West Dunbartonshire the | :03:56. | :03:58. | |
opportunity to sum up for a couple of minutes, perhaps with more Rabbie | :03:59. | :04:04. | |
Burns, I don't know, so I whll do something unusual and sit down and | :04:05. | :04:07. | |
keep quiet but, just to say, I would like to thank everybody for digging | :04:08. | :04:11. | |
part in this and for making some useful and very thoughtful | :04:12. | :04:15. | |
contributions and I should `lso just mention, because he asked md | :04:16. | :04:19. | |
specifically to address it, the member for Glenrothes suggested some | :04:20. | :04:22. | |
quite serious proposals abott people who may be appointed to the Lords or | :04:23. | :04:24. | |
not and I will take that as a not and I will take that as a | :04:25. | :04:30. | |
submission which I will rel`te to those in the House of Lords to be | :04:31. | :04:32. | |
considered as part of their current deliberations. With that, M`dame | :04:33. | :04:36. | |
Deputy Speaker, I look forw`rd to the honourable member's sumling up. | :04:37. | :04:44. | |
Martin Doherty. May I firstly thank the Minister for participathng in | :04:45. | :04:48. | |
the day's debate and also the member from Caerphilly for informing the | :04:49. | :04:52. | |
House on how he can progress and go forward in the reform of an upper | :04:53. | :04:55. | |
chamber. But I think I have to be clear. For me and my fellow members | :04:56. | :05:02. | |
on this site, the mandate from the constituencies of Scotland hs that | :05:03. | :05:11. | |
abolition of an un-elected, abolition of | :05:12. | :05:15. | |
unaccountable peerage which can generate legislation in that other | :05:16. | :05:21. | |
place. I also wish to thank the honourable member for Cleethorpes, | :05:22. | :05:32. | |
honourable member is for Pahsley and Renfrewshire, North Ayrshird and | :05:33. | :05:34. | |
Arran, Inverclyde, Luton North, I notice is no longer in her place, | :05:35. | :05:38. | |
Stirling, who I know is abott to leave the house to try to c`tch | :05:39. | :05:44. | |
transport home, Glenrothes, Aberdeen North especially, who did mtch of | :05:45. | :05:49. | |
the ground work in bringing this to the floor of the House. Fin`lly I | :05:50. | :05:57. | |
would also place before the minister a couple of caveats on reform. For | :05:58. | :06:00. | |
bid the appointment of ex-mdmbers of this place. -- forbid. For ` minimum | :06:01. | :06:10. | |
of at least ten years. It is an up or in the position that those thrown | :06:11. | :06:14. | |
out of public office by the electorate can be duly drawn in to | :06:15. | :06:21. | |
their upper chamber. Remove immediately the 26 archbishops and | :06:22. | :06:24. | |
bishops of the Church of England for discussing and debating the | :06:25. | :06:28. | |
legislation of the civic and religious life of Scotland. I will | :06:29. | :06:34. | |
indeed, yes. As a point of clarification on the first of those | :06:35. | :06:37. | |
points about former MPs, wotld he draw any distinction at all between | :06:38. | :06:41. | |
those defeated and those who have retired? No. | :06:42. | :06:47. | |
LAUGHTER Forced and automatic retirelent by | :06:48. | :06:52. | |
the age of 80. Even the Rom`n curate is forced to retire as cardhnals of | :06:53. | :06:57. | |
the Roman Church! Fundament`lly real change requires abolition. Finally, | :06:58. | :07:04. | |
is not the rest of the Unitdd is not the | :07:05. | :07:09. | |
Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, I know my | :07:10. | :07:11. | |
honourable member here would have been if he could have been, but it | :07:12. | :07:17. | |
is too us an issue of inequ`lity at the heart of our liberal delocracy. | :07:18. | :07:23. | |
I reject it because my constituents told me to reject it. For they are | :07:24. | :07:29. | |
nothing at that other end of the chamber other than a | :07:30. | :07:44. | |
pair of sleekit, cowerin' thmourous beasties, and their time is up! As | :07:45. | :07:49. | |
many as are of the opinion, say 'aye'. To the contrary, 'no'. The | :07:50. | :08:05. | |
ayes have it. I beg to move this House to now adjourn. The qtestion | :08:06. | :08:13. | |
is this House now adjourned. Thank you, Madame Deputy Speaker, and | :08:14. | :08:15. | |
thank you for the opportunity to raise this important local hssue in | :08:16. | :08:19. | |
the chamber today. I should start by saying that whilst I am verx | :08:20. | :08:25. | |
critical indeed of the plan for connecting Hinckley to the National | :08:26. | :08:29. | |
Grid, my support for Hinklex C itself is unwavering. I also | :08:30. | :08:35. | |
congratulate my colleagues, the honourable friend for | :08:36. | :08:39. | |
Weston-Super-Mare 's, who is doing a fine job at the dispatch box and | :08:40. | :08:42. | |
leaves the chambers as I rise, but my honourable friend for Brhdgwater | :08:43. | :08:47. | |
and West Somerset and Somerset have all been engaged in the battle over | :08:48. | :08:50. | |
these pylons for many years and indeed so have my predecessors as | :08:51. | :08:53. | |
the member for congratulate and paid tribute to the | :08:54. | :08:59. | |
councils and parish councils, particularly Mark badge worth and | :09:00. | :09:04. | |
that Allah tins and Compton Bishop parish councils who have all worked | :09:05. | :09:09. | |
tirelessly to represent the views of their parishioners over the course | :09:10. | :09:18. | |
of the last -- Mark badge worth and allergens. The fantastic public | :09:19. | :09:23. | |
engagement has made Church Hall and village hall after church h`ll and | :09:24. | :09:26. | |
village hall have been filldd by people to make very clear their | :09:27. | :09:31. | |
views on this Highland line. With the announcement winning, M`dame | :09:32. | :09:36. | |
Deputy Speaker -- piling line. I wanted to rise to just raisd a few | :09:37. | :09:38. | |
issues I think I get to be resolved, issues I think I get to be | :09:39. | :09:44. | |
and I know the Minister has and I know the Minister has | :09:45. | :09:50. | |
constraints on her given th`t the Department act the way it does in | :09:51. | :09:53. | |
this but I hope she will be able to talk about the technical issues I | :09:54. | :09:58. | |
raised even if not in specific reference to the Hinckley connection | :09:59. | :10:03. | |
project itself and I am also grateful to the response I have had | :10:04. | :10:08. | |
from the Lord Boren in response to the letter I wrote to the Sdcretary | :10:09. | :10:12. | |
of State last week in which he assures me the representations made | :10:13. | :10:16. | |
to the department, and Irish MPs will be included, since the | :10:17. | :10:21. | |
inclusion of the inquiry -- I should MPs. -- I assume. My doing this will | :10:22. | :10:32. | |
fall into three areas, a discussion fall into three areas, a discussion | :10:33. | :10:39. | |
of the fact that these pylons or so and tested and unwanted, thd | :10:40. | :10:44. | |
Government policy, and also impact of visual amenity and damaghng that | :10:45. | :10:48. | |
would have on our economy. Ht is clear from the recent speech of the | :10:49. | :10:53. | |
Secretary of State that has reset the Government's energy polhcy, that | :10:54. | :10:58. | |
there is a clear enthusiasm for marine energy generation. Offshore | :10:59. | :11:00. | |
wind is the method mentioned most keenly. But I think I am right in | :11:01. | :11:07. | |
saying there is an excitement for the opportunities presented by tidal | :11:08. | :11:11. | |
and wave technologies, provhding the Minister will | :11:12. | :11:22. | |
delivering them. But every generation is to be a key p`rt of | :11:23. | :11:24. | |
the Government's vision for the renewable sector in the futtre, it | :11:25. | :11:32. | |
stands to reason to me that, knowing within the Bristol Channel `nd | :11:33. | :11:37. | |
Severn estuary, there is such a fantastic natural resource hs | :11:38. | :11:40. | |
waiting to be harnessed by these technologies, we might put hn place | :11:41. | :11:44. | |
a transmission infrastructure now that will serve as everything that | :11:45. | :11:49. | |
might come in the future, r`ther than just Hinkley Point itsdlf. | :11:50. | :11:53. | |
Yesterday on the day before, Madame Deputy Speaker, I was with the | :11:54. | :11:57. | |
energy and climate change Sdlect Committee on a trip to Brussels and | :11:58. | :12:00. | |
whilst the Team Juncker banners were not | :12:01. | :12:15. | |
the welcoming to these Eurosceptic eyes, I would say the president | :12:16. | :12:18. | |
responsible for the energy tnion was very refreshing indeed. He lade some | :12:19. | :12:22. | |
interesting points about thd plans the EU and | :12:23. | :12:27. | |
United Kingdom, and also thd government of the Netherlands, | :12:28. | :12:33. | |
Belgium, and France, and thd plans for a North Sea energy grid. It | :12:34. | :12:38. | |
seems to me if we are looking at putting undersea infrastructure in | :12:39. | :12:42. | |
place in the North Sea to f`cilitate both marine generation and | :12:43. | :12:43. | |
interconnection between the different countries surrounding the | :12:44. | :12:49. | |
North Sea, why it is so difficult for us to see that happening in the | :12:50. | :12:54. | |
Bristol Channel and seven Estoril. I am starting to speak slowly because | :12:55. | :12:58. | |
I think the critical second is approaching. I will pause. There we | :12:59. | :13:16. | |
go. -- Severn Estuary. I patse to let this House adjourn. Thank you. | :13:17. | :13:24. | |
Speaking with such conviction on subsea into connection on the North | :13:25. | :13:30. | |
Sea, I do not see why it is such a leap for the National Grid | :13:31. | :13:34. | |
excited about it elsewhere. Indeed, National Grid shares the enthusiasm | :13:35. | :13:37. | |
I have and I believe the Government has for marine energy regendration | :13:38. | :13:43. | |
schemes. In their own documdnt they speak very keenly about the | :13:44. | :13:47. | |
opportunities for tidal and wave energy and indeed for offshore wind | :13:48. | :13:52. | |
off the south-west of England and the coast and out into the Hrish | :13:53. | :13:59. | |
Sea. There is a disparity, H think, in the timelines National Grid have | :14:00. | :14:05. | |
used in their submissions for this planning application. In th`t they | :14:06. | :14:10. | |
have done a cost benefit an`lysis over, as far as I can tell, 30 | :14:11. | :14:14. | |
years. Their future energy scenarios, so clearly -- scdnarios | :14:15. | :14:19. | |
so clearly set out the regeneration so clearly set out the regeneration | :14:20. | :14:25. | |
for tidal and wave over the next period on the transmission line | :14:26. | :14:29. | |
itself will have a timeline extending far beyond that so, in my | :14:30. | :14:34. | |
view, just to apply National Grid's on policy there is an opportunity to | :14:35. | :14:38. | |
see the cost of connecting Hinckley C to the Greg is not just that but | :14:39. | :14:45. | |
as an investment and aggreg`ting the cost across all that might come in | :14:46. | :14:49. | |
this teacher -- the grid. Elsewhere National Grid have been mord on the | :14:50. | :14:53. | |
front foot -- in the future. They have spent ?1.1 billion connecting | :14:54. | :14:59. | |
Scotland to England through the Western link which includes | :15:00. | :15:03. | |
converter stations at either end which they say are so expensive to | :15:04. | :15:06. | |
do down in Somerset. Ludicrously, do down in Somerset. Ludicrously, | :15:07. | :15:13. | |
there is the visual impact provision project which is taking ?500 million | :15:14. | :15:19. | |
of Bill Piers' money to takd down pylons that already exist and put | :15:20. | :15:24. | |
those underground and yet whth this project we are going to put new | :15:25. | :15:29. | |
pylons are on equally sensitive land project and I have looked at the | :15:30. | :15:36. | |
plans particularly for the Dorset issue and it is clear there are | :15:37. | :15:40. | |
pylons outside of their that will be removed because they can be so | :15:41. | :15:44. | |
clearly seen from there it self That applies absolutely, and whilst | :15:45. | :15:55. | |
have sweated your way up to the top, through Weston-Super-Mare, | :15:56. | :15:59. | |
have sweated your way up to the top, the view you will see will be of | :16:00. | :16:02. | |
these pylons stretching out for miles in every direction. Then there | :16:03. | :16:09. | |
is interconnection. I will be slightly cynical and suggest they | :16:10. | :16:15. | |
Red's rampant enthusiasm for interconnection which is under the | :16:16. | :16:20. | |
sea, Madame Deputy Speaker, compared to their utter disdain for going | :16:21. | :16:27. | |
under the Channel may have connection to raising revente and I | :16:28. | :16:31. | |
hope that applies that enthusiasm for undersea | :16:32. | :16:38. | |
technologies when there is ` revenue raising opportunity attached to it. | :16:39. | :16:40. |