19/01/2016 House of Commons


19/01/2016

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Good morning and welcome to BBC Parliament live coverage of the

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Commons. In an hour and urgent question is being asked by

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Conservative Stephen Phillips about Ebola. Officials in zero the loan

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confirmed -- in Sierra Leone confirmed that someone has died

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after the world health organisation said the virus had ended. The main

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business are to debates on student maintenance grants and on the cost

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of public transport. Join me for a round-up at 11 o'clock tonight.

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First questions to the Chancellor of the Exchequer George Osborne and his

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ministerial team. The first question from the Conservative Craig Williams

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concerns the Chancellor's long-term economic plan.

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Order, order. Questions to Mr Chancellor of the Exchequer. Craig

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Williams. Britain is in a much stronger

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economic position manager was five years ago with employment up and the

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deficit down. However, as I set out in my speech to business leaders in

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Cardiff, we face a dangerous cocktail of economic risks from

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around the world this year. That situation is reflected in the IMF

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forecast which was published one hour ago which shows world growth is

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down but the positive forecast for the UK on change. It sure is the

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best thing we can do here is continued to fix our public

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finances, back business and deliver our long-term economic plan. Thank

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you. The Chancellor was very welcome when he was in Cardiff two weeks ago

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and brought a sense of urgency to the Cardiff city deal process with a

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deadline for the budget and a clear sense of direction. If we are to

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maximise the potential of Cardiff in the Welsh economy presented and our

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long-term economic plan, is it not time we had tangible plans from

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Labour given the have had years to come up with them? It was good to

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meet with my honourable friend and business leaders in Cardiff and to

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back investment in the new semiconductor catapult and the

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brilliant work being done at the university there. I hope we can

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agree with the wealth of Ramadan with authorities in Cardiff a

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Cardiff city deal before the budget. He poses the rate question, which is

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after 16 years after being in power the Labour Party in Wales has not

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delivered incredible economic plan for Wales is it not time for change?

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If the Chancellor keeps sucking off the threat to the very existence of

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some of Britain's's course at Egypt industries like still cause -- like

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steel, is there not eight danger that it might just not be the at all

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in the future? Of course the redundancies at Tata Steel and

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elsewhere in the industry are a real matter of regret. We are providing

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all these aboard we can to families, helping them get back into work. We

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are also responding to a quest from the steel industry to cut energy

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costs. That comes into effect today. -- requests from the steel industry.

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We are making sure that internationally we take action

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against the chief imports from China. Not one of these things were

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done under a Labour Government, and during that period, the number of

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steel jobs fell by 50% in this country. So we will not take

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lectures from the party opposite, but we will back our steel industry.

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Does the tiles were think that the stamp duty surcharge announced in

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the Autumn Statement, the effect of that on the buy to let market will

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be to inhibit or advance labour mobility? I think it will help

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promote homeownership, because it will mean there is a more level

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playing field between an order occupier buying a house at the buy

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to let landlords. There is nothing wrong with people investing in

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property, there should just be a level playing field so that we

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reverse the decline in home ownership in this country. A

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long-term economic plan means supporting small businesses across

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the country. On the 26th of December 250 businesses in my constituency

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employed 2500 people were inundated by floodwaters. Bobby tiles for Dick

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Best opportunity to commit to a proper school -- well the Chancellor

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take the opportunity to commit to proper flood defences? I know the

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Environment Agency and indeed the Government is conducting a review

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after what was the highest level of rainfall in our modern history in

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Yorkshire. But of course by committing the additional ?2 billion

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to flood investments we are able to afford these things. We would not be

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able to afford any of this sort of thing if we had wrecked the economy

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in the last couple of years. Does my honourable friend agree that as part

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of his long-term economic plan be helped by Isil will help people in

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my constituency where -- help to buy ISA will help? The help to buy ISA

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has been a huge success as it has been launched. 170,000 families have

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taken it up because that is helping people get on the ladder, the

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property ladder, helping them save for that deposit and doing

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everything we can to support the aspirations of the families of

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Britain. The Government's plan requires the doubling of exports by

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2022 ?1 trillion, -- by 2020. Can the Chancellor tell us, does he

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still hauled to the intention and the promise to the UK exports rise

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by ?100 billion per year every year for the next five years? We do hold

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to the target, but quite frankly it will be very challenging to meet,

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because while we have been improving exports, and frankly many of our

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main export markets have been very weak, we would like to see further

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economic reform on the continent of Europe. Some of those emerging

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markets are struggling at the moment, although we have a very good

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economic dialogue team plays today with India. British exports to India

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are increasing. There are a lot of challenges, but I am not one who

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thinks we should knock the challenges or ditched the target.

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Increasing exports is a key target for the UK. We should set ambitious

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targets but they have to be credible. Given that all beer -- or

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they are say it will be feel -- will feel to be met, should we not set a

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realistic and achievable targets? I think it is right to set the

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scratching target and tried to meet it even if it will be challenging.

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He talks about realistic and credible numbers. If Scotland had

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listened to the Scottish nationalists, it would be becoming

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separate from the United Kingdom in two months' time and the Scottish

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Government and its claim on independence on an oil price of

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$115. Scotland now would be heading for economic catastrophe if there it

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had listened to the honourable gentleman and the members from the

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Scottish Nationalist party. So before they talk about credible and

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realistic economic policies anywhere else in the UK, they should get one

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themselves. Motor manufacturing is crucial to our long-term economic

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plan. Surely the Land Rover defender. Production in Solihull.

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--. Production. Well the Chancellor pay tribute to the workers in

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Solihull? This iconic model has been produced over decades and been seen

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all over the world and producible peacetime and wartime. Good news for

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Solihull and the whole country is that they continue to produce

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brand-new models of great cars and are one of the real success stories

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of the British economy and in general, Wilder have been

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conservatives in the Treasury and in Downing Street, car production in

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this country is up 50%. -- while there have been Conservatives. The

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Chancellor has promised an economic recovery for all felt in all parts

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of our nation. On the day the IMF has warned about the global economy

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and called for governments to increase public spending, will be

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Chancellor now reconsider his economic plan and his investment and

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in particular? The economic plan has seen employment, unemployment fall.

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It has meant that on those IMF forecasts the UK's forecast has not

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changed. It remains one of the strongest of all the advanced

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economies in the world. I might suggest he might want to treat his

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own economic policy, since in the last week he has called for the

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return of flying pickets, was to ban companies paying dividends, and

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wants to spend billions of pounds on nuclear missile submarines without

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any nuclear missiles. Today he said he will tour the country with the

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former Greek finance minister to educate us all about economics. I

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think the one thing they have in common is they have both lost their

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marbles. If the Chancellor will not reconsider his investment plans, can

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he at least appreciate how angry families of steelworkers South Wales

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are this morning knowing that when the bankers bonuses were threatened,

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he immediately shot across to Brussels with an army of lawyers to

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defend them. He will jump into a helicopter for a Tory fundraiser but

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it has taken him for months to lift a finger for a steelwork, to receive

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Steelworkers' jobs. Does that not prove he is actually the bankers'

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Chancellor? We want a successful financial services industry because

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hundreds of thousands of people across the country work in it.

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We have taken action to reduce energy costs, which hadn't happened

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previously, and that comes into effect today. That's why we're

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taking action to change procurement rules so that the British Government

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and others are encouraged to by British Steel, which never happened

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when the Labour Party were in office, and we are acting

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internationally to deal with things like the dumping of Chinese steel.

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Of course it is an incredibly difficult situation but, as he

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knows, and everyone in this House knows, there are steel jobs being

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lost in every single country in the world at the moment. The question

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is, what can you do nationally to defend your steel industry and

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protect it, and we are doing everything we can. If he has got

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constructive suggestions, he should put them to me. Number two, please.

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With permission, I'd like to group this question with question 13. The

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Financial Conduct Authority is an independent regulator. No Treasury

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minister or official had discussions with the SCA before it took the

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decision to continue this review. Given that the popular image of

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bankers right now is probably on a par with used-car salesmen or MPs,

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even, would she not agree with her honourable friend, the Member for

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wire forest, but to abort this review now, which could have looked

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at regulating challenger banks as well as historic mis-selling, is a

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missed opportunity all-round? Well, I find it hard to take lectures from

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the party opposite in terms of regulating the financial sector. In

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fact, since my right honourable friend became Chancellor, we set up

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the Financial Conduct Authority. We've moved on from the failed

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regulatory system that was there under the Labour government and we

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made it a criminal offence to manipulate the UK's key benchmark.

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We brought in the toughest rules on bankers' pay of any financial centre

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and we are bringing in a new criminal offence so that any senior

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managers whose reckless decisions bring down banks face jail time.

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With the terrible impact of bad banking practices that was

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highlighted in the Tomlinson report, particularly commercial lending to

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small businesses, still unresolved one of my constituents, does the

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Minister agree that both the public and small businesses still have

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significant concerns about the behaviour of many individuals in the

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banking sector? I completely agree with the honourable lady that we

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need to see the highest levels of conduct from the banking sector. We

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also need to continue to take steps in terms of our long-term economic

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plan to secure access to funding for small businesses, which is why we've

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taken steps to back peer-to-peer lending, with extended funding for

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lending for another two years and we continue to benefit from record low

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interest rates, axed our prudent to, management. There has certainly been

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speculation that the Treasury has influenced the SCA and one metres

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fanciful, it is important but that it was set up independently in 2012.

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But does my honourable friend agree that one of the ways that we could

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potentially underpin that independence of the Financial

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Conduct Authority would be to adopt a similar process that we have with

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the office of budget responsibility, whereby the Treasury committee can

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have a power of veto over the apartment of the chief Executive?

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The honourable gentleman, who is very constructive and engaged as a

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member of the Treasury select committee, I know we'll have the

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opportunity to ask westerns of the acting chief executive and the chair

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of the Financial Conduct Authority at his committee on Wednesday. But

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what I would agree is that it is very useful for the committees such

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as to have a pre-appointment hearing with any executive of the Financial

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Conduct Authority. The symphony interbank immigration software

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allows for the permanent deletion of e-mails and advertises itself as,

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this will save the banks billions of pounds in fines. Will the Minister

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join my campaigning conduction with the Secretary of State business to

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ensure that the FCA retains the encryption codes for the software as

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they do in America, for seven years? He asks a very salient question and,

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of course, it is something that the FCA is currently investigating and

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he will be aware that new rules in terms of a particular requirement

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will require firms to keep that information for a significant period

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of time at this the subject of ongoing discussion. With the

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Minister agree that one of the biggest problems in the banking

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culture is that banks are too big to fail and would she looked at the

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issue of diversity in the sector, including new lending platforms

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market disrupters, and would she looked, in particular, at new

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primary duties for the SCA to look the of diversity?

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Well, he will I'm sure welcomed the announcement that we are expecting

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on Wednesday from both the Bank of England and the FCA and the PRA to

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work together in terms of backing innovation in the financial sector.

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That is part of our long-term economic plan to back competition in

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the can accept and I'm pleased to say that in the last parliament

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there were eight new entrants to banking and did this parliament we

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are aiming to have 15. Interventions by HM Treasury and other bodies have

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raised questions regarding the ball's independence. Not my words

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but the words of an FCA commissioned external report regarding the SCA

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board which was published last week. How will the chancellor demonstrate

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that the appointment of the new Chief Executive of the FCA won't be

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an example of an overreaching chancellor trying to get his own

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way? Well, it was good of the honourable gentleman to turn up for

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Treasury questions this time. I guess there wasn't a stop the War

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march or a picket line to join today. But I can assure the

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honourable gentleman that the Treasury does have the power to

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appoint both the board and the Chief Executive, it sets the remit of the

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FCA but from then on it has operational independence. Number

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three. Latest ONS figures show real average weekly earnings were up 2.4%

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year-on-year in the three months to October. Wage growth has outstripped

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inflation for 13 consecutive months, the longest period of real wage

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growth since before the recession, and the OBR forecasts were to grow

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faster than in elation over the next five years. -- than inflation. Does

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he agree with me that the key to delivering further wage growth,

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particularly in rural areas like Somerset, is improving the skills

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base, which underpins the Chancellor's economic plan for the

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South West? He is quite right. Last year will be hourly pay of the

:19:19.:19:21.

average Somerset employee grew well in excess of CPI inflation. The

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south-west has a particularly strong rate of employment but driving real

:19:27.:19:30.

wage growth we have to see productivity gains, hence the focus

:19:31.:19:39.

on making sure we have an attractive tax regime that brings jobs to that

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region and this country. There are 400,000 fewer people earning over

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?20,000 and there were in 2010 because the Chancellor has been

:19:52.:19:56.

cutting up full-time jobs and replacing them with more part-time,

:19:57.:20:02.

low-paid jobs. What is he doing to lift productivity, research and

:20:03.:20:05.

development to raise average wages and to raise median wages as well?

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The lowest earners experience the fastest growth in medium earnings

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last year and recent growth has been dominated by full-time workers in

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contrast to what he says. We have comprehends a plan for driving

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productivity and the national living wage is a very dramatic, long-term

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structural change. Number four, Mr Speaker. Our long-term plan is to

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turn round a decades-old economic divide between North and south by

:20:38.:20:42.

building a northern powerhouse. We said we would create powerful new

:20:43.:20:45.

elected mayors. That's happening. We said we'd speed up transport

:20:46.:20:48.

connections across the North and we committed 13 billion of investment.

:20:49.:20:53.

And into my honourable friend's Cumbria, there is a new enterprise

:20:54.:20:56.

zone, new parents and nuclear research. The North is growing under

:20:57.:21:00.

this government and we will do everything we can to keep it growing

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strongly. I, like many of my constituents in Carlisle and

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Cumbria, hope to be very much part of the northern powerhouse. Part of

:21:09.:21:11.

this is ensuring that the private sector investor grows skills and of

:21:12.:21:15.

the structure and then there is the proposed Cumbrian deal. Can the

:21:16.:21:18.

Chancellor assure me that everything is being done from the government's

:21:19.:21:23.

perspective to achieve this deal, and will an elected mayor be part of

:21:24.:21:28.

it? As my honourable friend knows, and he is a real champion not just

:21:29.:21:31.

of Carlisle but of Cumbria and the Cumbrian economy, we are working

:21:32.:21:36.

with local authority leaders and other elected representatives on

:21:37.:21:40.

whether we can have a new governance arrangement in Cumbria which might

:21:41.:21:44.

include an elected mayor. This is a decision for Cumbria but they have

:21:45.:21:47.

come to us with this proposal and we are working hard with the people of

:21:48.:21:52.

Cumbria to see whether we can get an arrangement that boosts jobs, boost

:21:53.:21:55.

investment and makes sure that decisions that affect Cumbria are

:21:56.:22:02.

taken in Cumbria. Does the northern powerhouse occur in Redcar, where

:22:03.:22:08.

the steel industry has been closed because of him allowing the Chinese

:22:09.:22:15.

to break steel? Are they talking about it at Scunthorpe, where

:22:16.:22:18.

they've lost more than 1000 jobs? Are they talking about it at Port

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Talbot, where they are going to lose a lot more jobs? The truth is, they

:22:23.:22:27.

don't talk about the northern powerhouse in the coalfields where

:22:28.:22:31.

the Tories have shot the last three pits. They call it the northern Peru

:22:32.:22:34.

house. That's its real name. -- He seems to forget that the Redcar

:22:35.:22:50.

works closed under the Labour government that he supports. It is

:22:51.:22:53.

also the case that during that government but he supported from

:22:54.:22:56.

that bench there, the number of steel jobs lost in this country was

:22:57.:23:01.

30,000. We are doing everything we can to preserve the steel jobs that

:23:02.:23:03.

remain. We are working with the steel industry. We have ceded to

:23:04.:23:09.

almost all their requests we are looking to the last one, which is

:23:10.:23:12.

changes to business rates, which never happened under a Labour

:23:13.:23:15.

government, and we will report in the budget on that. We are working

:23:16.:23:19.

to make this a competitive place to do business and if one really

:23:20.:23:23.

adopted the policies of the party opposite, where you don't pay

:23:24.:23:27.

dividends to investors and you reintroduce flying pickets, do you

:23:28.:23:31.

really think a single overseas investor would be expanding their

:23:32.:23:39.

business in the UK? Number five. The government is fighting hard to fix

:23:40.:23:43.

the aspects of our EU membership, the cause of so much restriction in

:23:44.:23:47.

the UK, so we get a better deal for our country and secure our future.

:23:48.:23:50.

We are confident that the right agreement can be reached. Jaguar

:23:51.:23:54.

Land Rover have recently announced that they're going to double the

:23:55.:24:00.

investment in a brand-new engine plant in my constituency, creating

:24:01.:24:02.

hundreds of additional jobs on top of the 1400 they have or the amount.

:24:03.:24:06.

Does the Minister agree with me that unfettered access to the single

:24:07.:24:11.

market dries this sort of investment and if we were to walk away or

:24:12.:24:17.

sacrifice that access, those jobs and that investment could be put at

:24:18.:24:24.

risk? First of all, I also welcome the new jobs being created near her

:24:25.:24:30.

constituency by Jaguar Land Rover. My honourable friend the Chancellor

:24:31.:24:35.

visited that site very recently. In terms of our relationship with the

:24:36.:24:38.

EU, the position of the Government is very clear. We want the benefits

:24:39.:24:43.

of access to the single market but there are also aspects of our

:24:44.:24:46.

relationship with the EU which can be improved upon and that's what we

:24:47.:24:50.

are seeking to do in our renegotiation. Given that last year

:24:51.:24:58.

we had a ?62 billion trade deficit with the European Union and given

:24:59.:25:03.

that if we left the EU, the UK would be the EU's single biggest export

:25:04.:25:06.

market, does the Minister think we could have a free trade agreement

:25:07.:25:11.

with the EU from outside the European Union without handing over

:25:12.:25:15.

?19 billion a year in membership fees? Well, I'm sure that that issue

:25:16.:25:23.

will be one of the issues discussed at length during the referendum

:25:24.:25:27.

debate, and the point is that under this government, the British people

:25:28.:25:31.

will have an opportunity to express its views on where our future lies.

:25:32.:25:41.

Britain has been a substantial net contributor to the EU budget. For 40

:25:42.:25:45.

years this has had a negative effect on UK growth in GDP, the cumulative

:25:46.:25:49.

effect of which has been very large. Would not leaving the EU help UK

:25:50.:25:55.

growth? I suppose 1.I would beg to the honourable member is that thanks

:25:56.:26:00.

to Margaret Thatcher's renegotiation of the rebate and thanks to the

:26:01.:26:03.

current Prime Minister's ago she Asian of the EU budget, resulting in

:26:04.:26:11.

a real terms cut, we are paying less than we would have done. -- by

:26:12.:26:16.

minister's renegotiation of the EU budget. Nonsense.

:26:17.:26:27.

Would she not agree that it would be important to pay the real living

:26:28.:26:32.

wage, ?8 25 per hour, in the rest of the UK and ?9 40 in London, as is

:26:33.:26:37.

done by the Scottish Government and over 400 employees in Scotland, so

:26:38.:26:41.

that it is fair for all employees, particularly those under 25? I'm

:26:42.:26:47.

glad she welcomes the fact that, as of April this year, all employees

:26:48.:26:52.

across the whole of the UK over 25 will be getting a significant pay

:26:53.:26:55.

rise, and that's thanks to the strength of employment across the

:26:56.:27:01.

UK, which is thanks to our long-term economic plan.

:27:02.:27:08.

By my calculation someone earns ?7.85 per hour today will be

:27:09.:27:17.

benefiting and by the end of this parliament will be more than ?1500

:27:18.:27:23.

later. Does my honourable friend agree that this shows that

:27:24.:27:26.

Government is committed to making work pay? The honourable member

:27:27.:27:31.

makes an excellent point, and in fact it has been highlighted that it

:27:32.:27:38.

is not just that 2.5 million people will be directly benefiting from the

:27:39.:27:42.

change to the National Living Wage, but also to 6 million people who

:27:43.:27:47.

make salaries and very close to that hourly rate. When is the Chancellor

:27:48.:27:56.

and the present Minister going to give public sector workers a decent

:27:57.:28:02.

pay rise for the jobs that they do frost? Of course we believe that

:28:03.:28:07.

every worker in this country will benefit from the change to the

:28:08.:28:11.

National Living Wage, because it is an important part of the long-term

:28:12.:28:15.

economic plan. But he will know that this year public sector workers

:28:16.:28:21.

actually received raises that work above inflation. The Minister has

:28:22.:28:26.

spoken importantly about the principle of making work pay. Will

:28:27.:28:32.

she give further consideration to extending married couples' tax

:28:33.:28:35.

allowance so that more families can keep more of what they earn? I will

:28:36.:28:44.

take that as a budget 's omission. -- budget submission. The Government

:28:45.:28:50.

is backing business by cutting their taxes. To support small businesses

:28:51.:28:58.

the employment allowance will rise in April and we are doubling

:28:59.:29:06.

business small rate relief. We will back companies not punish them with

:29:07.:29:13.

the anti-business nonsense we hear from the party opposite. Will be

:29:14.:29:30.

Chancellor join me in congratulating... I John with my

:29:31.:29:36.

honourable friend in congratulating the work they are doing in investing

:29:37.:29:43.

on South Wales transport infrastructure. We are back in

:29:44.:29:46.

companies with this annual investment allowance of ?200,000,

:29:47.:29:50.

the highest level it has ever been. Will the Chancellor tell us what

:29:51.:29:56.

step he ensures to take to make sure the quarterly tax returns coming in

:29:57.:30:02.

2020 will not harm small businesses in constituencies like mine and

:30:03.:30:05.

actually affected their productivity and their ability to make profits?

:30:06.:30:11.

My honourable friend is right that the objective of what we are seeking

:30:12.:30:15.

to do is to make it easier for businesses and individuals to

:30:16.:30:19.

complete their tax returns by making use of modern digital technology and

:30:20.:30:24.

introducing a simple and secure at personalised digital tax account. We

:30:25.:30:28.

estimate it will reduce the administrative cost to businesses.

:30:29.:30:36.

The best way to support manufacturing businesses in the

:30:37.:30:39.

Midlands would be to free the region from London's control. The region

:30:40.:30:43.

has been stifled by Whitehall for too long. To strengthen the economy,

:30:44.:30:51.

develop Brownfield sites and tackle congestion, we will deliver new

:30:52.:30:58.

homes. We have a deal. That is exactly what we are doing with the

:30:59.:31:02.

west Midlands and we worked across different political parties. I have

:31:03.:31:06.

met with Labour and Conservative authority leaders and members of

:31:07.:31:10.

Parliament from both parties in the West Midlands who collectively

:31:11.:31:13.

agreed to have an elected mayor and you have significant powers from the

:31:14.:31:18.

Government to the people of the West midlands. I think it is one of the

:31:19.:31:22.

most exciting step forward in the devolution of power in this country.

:31:23.:31:29.

What further discussions have taken place in devolved administrations

:31:30.:31:38.

about the introduction of fiscal incentives for apprenticeships and

:31:39.:31:42.

economic growth? We are in discussion with the Northern

:31:43.:31:44.

Ireland's executive about what we can do to support the economy. One

:31:45.:31:51.

of the things we would really like to see is the devolution of

:31:52.:31:56.

corporation tax rates which we have legislated for and provided we can

:31:57.:32:00.

reach agreement on the budget implications of that that would be a

:32:01.:32:06.

massive boost for Northern Irish businesses. I welcome the chance

:32:07.:32:09.

were's reduction in the corporation tax that has helped so many jobs to

:32:10.:32:14.

be created. Does he agree that some businesses cannot grow despite this

:32:15.:32:20.

measure because of a local infrastructure constraints such as

:32:21.:32:24.

those that need addressing in my constituency? My honourable friend

:32:25.:32:31.

is absolutely right. We are investing in transport

:32:32.:32:35.

infrastructure in the Southampton area and along the south coast

:32:36.:32:38.

because we understand that all parts of the country can benefit from

:32:39.:32:41.

additional investment in transport infrastructure. That is why we are

:32:42.:32:45.

increasingly transport budget even at a time when public budgets are

:32:46.:32:49.

tight. None of these things would be affordable if you crash the economy.

:32:50.:32:55.

The introduction of quarterly reporting for tax returns has been

:32:56.:32:59.

described by the Institute for chartered accountants at an

:33:00.:33:01.

additional burden for business. Does he understand the very real anger

:33:02.:33:06.

among businesses and my constituency and around the country that they are

:33:07.:33:11.

being penalised while many of the largest corporations are allowed to

:33:12.:33:16.

avoid a tax altogether? We have increased our action against

:33:17.:33:21.

large-scale corporate tax avoidance and evasion, and the new diverted

:33:22.:33:25.

profits tax is designed to deal with the very real anger that people

:33:26.:33:29.

feel, particularly in the small-business community, when the

:33:30.:33:31.

see large businesses not being taxed. We are dealing also with the

:33:32.:33:37.

burdens of tax administration, consulting with small businesses. It

:33:38.:33:41.

would be crazy as a country not to make use of new digital technology

:33:42.:33:46.

and the Internet to update and modernise our tax collection system,

:33:47.:33:49.

and we would regret not taking those steps today as we let other

:33:50.:33:52.

countries power ahead and reduce the burdens on business. Mr Speaker, the

:33:53.:34:01.

Government has taken a range of steps to reduce the trade deficit.

:34:02.:34:06.

The 2010, UK TI has more than doubled the number of businesses

:34:07.:34:11.

supported and UK Export Finance has provided more than 15 billion pounds

:34:12.:34:17.

of support. Allies are earlier this month when I met entrepreneurs in

:34:18.:34:22.

Edinburgh, many start-ups and exporters in Scotland greatly

:34:23.:34:25.

appreciate the UK TI systems. And welcome the Government's

:34:26.:34:37.

announcement this morning. It is not credible for the Minister to

:34:38.:34:40.

continue with a policy which has failed and resulted last year in a

:34:41.:34:44.

deficit in the trade of goods. We all want to see reduced dependence

:34:45.:34:48.

on consumer debt, but is it not time for him to admit the UK Government

:34:49.:34:53.

policy has failed. I gently suggest revision. The trade deficit is

:34:54.:35:00.

actually improving and the Cheryl GDP and is expected to continue to

:35:01.:35:05.

do so in the OBR forecast. What I can say, what would be an absolute

:35:06.:35:09.

disaster would BDSM people's Mac policy of call fiscal independence

:35:10.:35:17.

-- the SNP's policy. Added to which would be the collapse in oil price.

:35:18.:35:24.

Revenues would be down this year a staggering 94%. This would be a

:35:25.:35:32.

disaster for Scotland. I welcome the Commons made earlier by the

:35:33.:35:35.

Chancellor about export initiatives to India, but will my honourable

:35:36.:35:40.

friend welcome the enjoy -- join me in welcoming efforts to boost

:35:41.:35:46.

exports in the north-west the Northern Powerhouse? I very much and

:35:47.:35:52.

my honourable friend in welcoming that, particularly with reference to

:35:53.:35:56.

exporters to China and India which have been a great success. The UK TI

:35:57.:36:04.

is doing what it can to support this, and providing tailored support

:36:05.:36:11.

for first-time exporters, and additional 20 million, and

:36:12.:36:18.

supporting Northern Powerhouse trade solutions. The British Chambers of

:36:19.:36:27.

commerce are reporting that it will take not four years but another 18

:36:28.:36:32.

years. Will be Chancellor not accept that this is clearer evidence that

:36:33.:36:40.

his effort to reduce the trade deficit are failing and will

:36:41.:36:45.

continue to fail? I think the UK has a good future in terms of the trade

:36:46.:36:50.

deficit and improving statistics. In terms of UK TI, I think the UK TI

:36:51.:36:54.

will also be playing an important role. The announcements we made

:36:55.:37:00.

today on trade policy, one of the most important things we can be

:37:01.:37:03.

doing at the Hall of Government approach is improving the approach

:37:04.:37:08.

we take to trade and boosting our exports. In South Thanet we have a

:37:09.:37:14.

niche amusement machine manufacturer, and the supply global

:37:15.:37:20.

export markets. What help and support can my honourable friend

:37:21.:37:25.

offer so that we can really achieve that cross Government approach to

:37:26.:37:30.

exports that has been lodged today -- launched today? I have been quite

:37:31.:37:36.

a few times to his constituency over the last year and a half. I don't

:37:37.:37:41.

think I have had the particular pleasure of meeting with that

:37:42.:37:44.

company, but I'm happy to meet with my honourable friend and with that

:37:45.:37:48.

company to see what could be done to help exporters in South Thanet. The

:37:49.:37:58.

concrete products industry used to have a surplus on the balance of

:37:59.:38:02.

payments but no has a deficit of hundreds of millions of pounds. This

:38:03.:38:07.

is due to the levy on products made in the United Kingdom but not on

:38:08.:38:11.

imported products and has been thousands of jobs in jeopardy. With

:38:12.:38:15.

the Minister consider imposing the same tax on goods produced abroad as

:38:16.:38:22.

is imposed on goods produced here in the UK? I am happy to look in detail

:38:23.:38:27.

at the points he raised. My understanding is there have been

:38:28.:38:30.

legal challenges to aspects of the aggregates Levy which are prevented

:38:31.:38:34.

us from addressing some of these issues, but I'm happy to engage with

:38:35.:38:38.

him on an ongoing basis to see what could be done better. Since 2010 we

:38:39.:38:51.

have cut corporation tax and will cut its further to eating percent by

:38:52.:38:56.

2020. Yup then the annual investment level at its highest ever level. --

:38:57.:39:04.

we have set. And UK TI announced today support for exporters. Is the

:39:05.:39:11.

minister concerned about recent figures showing the manufacturing

:39:12.:39:14.

sector is back in recession and what is he intend to do about it? We have

:39:15.:39:20.

to get behind the manufacturing sector, that is at the heart of this

:39:21.:39:23.

Government's approach and long-term economic plan and the heart of the

:39:24.:39:28.

productivity plan. Do things like giving enhanced access to leading

:39:29.:39:32.

technologies and catapult centres, things like the apprenticeship where

:39:33.:39:36.

the making sure we build up our skills, making sure we attract more

:39:37.:39:40.

teachers and to stem subjects, and a whole range of other initiatives.

:39:41.:39:49.

Can I have my honourable friend what steps are being taken to assist and

:39:50.:39:55.

encourage small businesses to become expanding, exporting businesses? --

:39:56.:40:01.

can I ask? UK TI has an ambition to increase the number of exporting

:40:02.:40:08.

businesses. There are a number of aspects of that, moving to more

:40:09.:40:11.

direct support as well as advice from some of the leading export

:40:12.:40:19.

agencies in the world. And making sure that we leverage existing

:40:20.:40:24.

Government relationships with firms and sectors for the whole of

:40:25.:40:31.

Government approach. The UK economy is still to dependent on consumer

:40:32.:40:36.

spending to drive growth and the Government should start being sought

:40:37.:40:41.

complacent and self-congratulatory. With the risk of Brexit this year

:40:42.:40:46.

only making things worse, what will this Government do to expand

:40:47.:40:51.

manufacturing exports? Exports are a challenge. There has been a

:40:52.:40:56.

long-term change in the UK's share of world trade, but I would say the

:40:57.:41:00.

majority of it came before 2010. An honest point about -- on his point

:41:01.:41:11.

about business expense of -- consumption expenditure... Will my

:41:12.:41:13.

honourable friend please agree with me that supporting engineering and

:41:14.:41:18.

manufacturing is absolutely essential to our economy and

:41:19.:41:21.

productivity and we must do all we can to address the skills gap that

:41:22.:41:25.

is threatening local jobs and businesses in my constituency and

:41:26.:41:29.

around the country? I absolutely agree with my honourable friend

:41:30.:41:32.

about the importance of engineering and the evidence that was shown in

:41:33.:41:39.

the spending review and Autumn Statement with enhanced support for

:41:40.:41:44.

science as well as the apprenticeship levy which is an

:41:45.:41:46.

important structural change in the way we invest in our skills base.

:41:47.:41:55.

Five years ago the Chancellor said he would rebalance the economy

:41:56.:42:01.

towards manufacturing, exports and the regions. The Director General of

:42:02.:42:04.

the British Chamber of Commerce recently said, and I quote, none of

:42:05.:42:08.

those things have actually transpired in practice yet. Why not?

:42:09.:42:17.

Mr Speaker, we are rebalancing the economy and it is a long-term and

:42:18.:42:21.

sustained programme. It is the long-term economic plan. We have

:42:22.:42:26.

talked about some of the enhanced support for science, technology,

:42:27.:42:30.

engineering and mathematics, and the apprenticeship levy, the catapult

:42:31.:42:34.

centres giving British business access to the best in leading-edge

:42:35.:42:38.

technology. There are some things in international trade we cannot

:42:39.:42:41.

control. There is bad news from China. We cannot control the world

:42:42.:42:45.

exchange rates but there are things we can control in terms of

:42:46.:42:50.

supporting tissue exporters and we are absolutely doing those. There we

:42:51.:42:52.

go again. It is everybody's fault but this

:42:53.:43:08.

government. But here is the truth. The Chancellor promised to boost

:43:09.:43:10.

manufacturing but instead it is in recession. Manufacturing output is

:43:11.:43:12.

6.1% below its previous crisis peak and falling. The British Chamber of

:43:13.:43:16.

Commerce's survey found manufacturing post to stagnation

:43:17.:43:18.

with export, sales and orders falling. And yet instead of helping

:43:19.:43:24.

the sector, the Chancellor close to the manufacturing advice service in

:43:25.:43:26.

November without so much as a mention. Is it not true that British

:43:27.:43:32.

businesses and families are now paying a heavy price for this

:43:33.:43:38.

Chancellor's feelings? -- failings. That is not true. This promotion is

:43:39.:43:45.

at the heart of the government's approach. We should not forget that

:43:46.:43:49.

services are a big part of the economy, a bigger part. The overall

:43:50.:43:53.

performance of the British economy is that we have the highest growth

:43:54.:43:57.

rate of the G-7 countries in 2014, and the joint highest in 2015. We

:43:58.:44:03.

have rising real wages and more people in jobs than ever before.

:44:04.:44:14.

Question ten, Mr Speaker. Following on, employment stands at 31.3

:44:15.:44:18.

million, which as I have just said, is more people in work than ever

:44:19.:44:23.

before. In the past year, growth has been driven by full-time employees

:44:24.:44:26.

in high and medium skilled jobs, showing we are moving to the next

:44:27.:44:31.

phase of the recovery with high-quality employment boosting

:44:32.:44:33.

productivity and living standards nationwide. I thank the Minister for

:44:34.:44:40.

his reply. In my constituency, youth unemployment has halved in the last

:44:41.:44:45.

year and it is now lower for the whole of the West Midlands. Will the

:44:46.:44:49.

Minister agree with me that this is excellent news for Telford and it

:44:50.:44:51.

shows that the economic plan is working? I am delighted with that

:44:52.:44:59.

news from my honourable friend's constituency and I agree with her.

:45:00.:45:03.

Across the West Midlands, youth unemployment has fallen by almost a

:45:04.:45:08.

quarter, with the rate returning to prerecession levels. Westminster saw

:45:09.:45:14.

the fastest growth in earnings among the English regions and there are

:45:15.:45:19.

140,000 more people in work than 2010. One of the leading employers

:45:20.:45:24.

in Stoke on Trent is the supplement industry and part of the growth in

:45:25.:45:28.

recent years has been due to the anti-dumping ruling by the EU on

:45:29.:45:33.

subsidised Chinese imports. Shamefully, the British Government

:45:34.:45:36.

opposed this. Will the Minister now commit the government to supporting

:45:37.:45:40.

the renewal of this anti-dumping ruling when it comes up? The

:45:41.:45:45.

government of course raises all issues about dumping and unfair

:45:46.:45:50.

trade practices as and when they come up. I would be happy to look at

:45:51.:45:55.

what he's saying about ceramics in Stoke-on-Trent. 12, Mr Speaker. HMRC

:45:56.:46:02.

announced its location strategy on the 12th of November and as I have

:46:03.:46:06.

stated, delivering that strategy will help HMRC to deliver more for

:46:07.:46:13.

less and reduce costs by 2025. I and HMRC have received representations

:46:14.:46:17.

from interested parties, most recently with my honourable friends,

:46:18.:46:23.

the members for Rochdale and the south-west. Following the meeting

:46:24.:46:26.

that my honourable friend had with myself and the honourable friend for

:46:27.:46:34.

Rochdale, would my honourable friend reflect further on the points made

:46:35.:46:37.

about Southend are becoming a regional centre. Will he make sure

:46:38.:46:43.

that the hard work, dedicated staff of Alexandra house are treated well?

:46:44.:46:50.

-- the hard-working. My honourable friend made his representations in a

:46:51.:46:53.

robust and fourth White Way in our meeting yesterday and I'm sure that

:46:54.:47:00.

HMRC are reflecting on that. -- robust and forthright. Redeeming the

:47:01.:47:06.

staff relocated, the staff will have additional transport costs

:47:07.:47:08.

compensated for for up to three years. And they will also benefit

:47:09.:47:11.

from London weighting, given that they will be moving from Stratford.

:47:12.:47:21.

Is anything going to be done about the depressing handling of HMRC and

:47:22.:47:26.

can the Minister suggest an improvement? Coal handling is at a

:47:27.:47:29.

higher level than it has been for many years. It was certainly the

:47:30.:47:35.

case that in spring of last year, coal handling standards were not at

:47:36.:47:39.

an acceptable level. HMRC have made improvements to that and I hope they

:47:40.:47:47.

will continue to make that progress. Number 14, please, Mr Speaker. The

:47:48.:47:53.

government is exploring options to ensure that the England and Wales

:47:54.:47:57.

illegal moneylending teams have the funding they need to ensure that

:47:58.:48:00.

consumers continue to be protected from illegal loan sharks and is

:48:01.:48:03.

confident of transitional arrangements being agreed. Too many

:48:04.:48:12.

of my constituents are victims of loan sharks. The illegal

:48:13.:48:16.

moneylending team has helped nearly 24,000 across the country yet this

:48:17.:48:20.

government has treated this service with disdain. Won't the cuts to this

:48:21.:48:25.

vital team and to local trading standards make the poorest more

:48:26.:48:32.

vulnerable? Far from agreeing with his point, we are finding ways to

:48:33.:48:36.

put this team on a sustainable basis going forward to continue the

:48:37.:48:40.

valuable work that they do protecting people from illegal

:48:41.:48:44.

moneylending. Topical questions, Gareth Johnson. Question one. The

:48:45.:48:52.

core purpose of the Treasury is to ensure the stability and prosperity

:48:53.:48:57.

of the economy. I exit fees act as a disincentive for people to take

:48:58.:49:02.

advantage of flexible pensions. Does the Chancellor agree with me that

:49:03.:49:06.

tackling these higher fees is essential to give people freedom

:49:07.:49:12.

over their own pensions? My honourable friend raises an

:49:13.:49:14.

important issue. The pension freedoms we have introduced have

:49:15.:49:19.

been widely welcomed. We have over 700,000 people eligible to pay some

:49:20.:49:23.

form of early exit charge. The government is not prepared to stand

:49:24.:49:26.

by and see people ripped off or blocked from accessing their own

:49:27.:49:30.

money by excessive charges. We have listened to the concerns and the

:49:31.:49:34.

newspaper campaigns that have been run. Today, we are known to change

:49:35.:49:39.

the law to place a duty on the Financial Conduct Authority to cap

:49:40.:49:43.

excessive early exit charges, and we are determined that people who have

:49:44.:49:46.

done the right thing and saved responsibly are able to access their

:49:47.:49:52.

pensions fairly. Mr Speaker, recent statistics show that household debt

:49:53.:49:56.

is now at a record high. Back in 2010, the Chancellor promised to

:49:57.:50:01.

move from an economy built on debt to an economy that saves. Can the

:50:02.:50:05.

Chancellor confirmed today why the figures contradict his original

:50:06.:50:12.

promise? Isil debt as a proportion of household income was 168% in 2008

:50:13.:50:19.

and today it is 142%, so it has fallen. -- household debt. This

:50:20.:50:24.

Chancellor has given more than any before him towards the cause of

:50:25.:50:27.

looking after our veterans in this country and for that I thank him

:50:28.:50:31.

wholeheartedly. Does he agree that whilst the charity sector has a key

:50:32.:50:36.

role to play, ultimately there is a state responsibility and we must

:50:37.:50:39.

make sure that government money is used on Intel agreed measured

:50:40.:50:45.

treatments for our veterans and their families? -- empirically

:50:46.:50:49.

measured. My honourable friend has personal experience in this area and

:50:50.:50:52.

represents a constituency that has given so much to the defence of our

:50:53.:50:56.

nation. He is right that as well as the live or fines, which were used

:50:57.:51:01.

for one-off causes to help military charities, we have the Armed Forces

:51:02.:51:04.

covenant and the annual commitment to support veterans. I'm always

:51:05.:51:08.

happy to look at specific projects that we can invest in or on going

:51:09.:51:15.

concerns we can deal with. The collapse of UK manufacturing has

:51:16.:51:20.

been going on for 50 years, from 30% of the economy in the 1970s to less

:51:21.:51:26.

than 10% today. More than 20% of all jobs in the 1980s, to only 8% today.

:51:27.:51:34.

Given the length of the decline, why has the government not made

:51:35.:51:37.

manufacturing and exports one of its top priorities? We have backed our

:51:38.:51:43.

manufacturers and our exporters and we have cut corporation tax and cut

:51:44.:51:46.

other taxes that affect these businesses. We have reformed UK

:51:47.:51:51.

Trade Investment and as a result, the manufacturing sector is a larger

:51:52.:51:54.

share of our economy than it was when I became Chancellor but there

:51:55.:51:57.

is a lot more to do. I would say to her and the Scottish Government, we

:51:58.:52:01.

want to work more closely with Scotland on overseas trade missions

:52:02.:52:04.

where we can promote Scottish businesses. We do not always get

:52:05.:52:08.

that cooperation but hopefully it will be forthcoming in the future.

:52:09.:52:14.

Whilst I welcome the government's move towards the digitalisation of

:52:15.:52:18.

tax, a number of small businesses and self across my region,

:52:19.:52:25.

approximately 74% of them employ less than four people and they have

:52:26.:52:30.

voiced concerns about the negative affect on their financial resources,

:52:31.:52:32.

depending on their alliance with a county. Could my honourable friend

:52:33.:52:37.

outline what support will be provided to our small businesses to

:52:38.:52:44.

help adapt to the proposed changes? First of all, can I reassure the

:52:45.:52:48.

House that there are no plans for quarterly tax returns as has been

:52:49.:52:53.

reported. What HMRC are looking at is making greater use of digital

:52:54.:52:59.

technology and that information is provided to HMRC more regularly. My

:53:00.:53:01.

honourable friend raises an important point about ensuring that

:53:02.:53:06.

there is support for businesses as they adapt to new ways of keeping

:53:07.:53:09.

records and that is something that HMRC is determined to do. The

:53:10.:53:20.

Midlands engine has been turbo-charged with recent figures

:53:21.:53:25.

showing four Staffordshire constituencies in the top seven of

:53:26.:53:29.

those ranked by the extent of falling claimant rates between May

:53:30.:53:34.

of 2010 and November 2015, with Canada to chase being ranked fourth.

:53:35.:53:42.

What matters is my honourable friend undertaking to make sure we maintain

:53:43.:53:46.

this positive momentum? There has been good news in Cannock and across

:53:47.:53:51.

the Midlands and employment is up in her constituency. Since coming to

:53:52.:53:57.

this House, she has been a champion of the businesses in her area, we

:53:58.:54:00.

are working together to give more power to people in the West

:54:01.:54:05.

Midlands, to take control of the decisions that affect them. I

:54:06.:54:09.

welcome her support for that. We are investing in transport

:54:10.:54:11.

infrastructure and backing science in the West Midlands as well. If she

:54:12.:54:18.

has specific ideas to help businesses in Cannock Chase, my door

:54:19.:54:22.

is open. Can I ask the Chancellor how on earth a ?42 million cut over

:54:23.:54:28.

the next two years to the UK TI budget will enable the UK to become

:54:29.:54:32.

a world-class export and investment promotion agency? We have set out

:54:33.:54:39.

today the strategy to give more direct help to our exporters across

:54:40.:54:42.

the United Kingdom and Lord Maude presented at the proposals to

:54:43.:54:46.

cabinets to do that. But getting lectures on public finances from the

:54:47.:54:50.

SNP, we would be heading towards the break-up of our country in two

:54:51.:54:53.

months' time if the people of Scotland have listened to the

:54:54.:54:56.

arguments of the Scottish Nationalists. Their calculation is

:54:57.:55:01.

were based on an oil price of $115, which the Member for Gordon

:55:02.:55:06.

described as a conservative estimate at the time. The oil price is now

:55:07.:55:11.

last than $30 and it would've been a catastrophe for the people of

:55:12.:55:15.

Scotland. -- less than $30. It would been a catastrophe if they had

:55:16.:55:17.

listened to the advice and figures of the SNP.

:55:18.:55:22.

Whatever it is the government making to widen access to basic bank

:55:23.:55:27.

accounts? -- what matters is the government making. I am delighted to

:55:28.:55:33.

tell my constituency neighbour that at the end of last year we did

:55:34.:55:38.

announce that all the major banks are now able to offer a basic bank

:55:39.:55:42.

account to customers who require one. Many of my constituents who

:55:43.:55:49.

watch Coronation Street will be following the story of Tyrone Dodds,

:55:50.:55:54.

struggling with debt, with keen interest. Unsecured lending reached

:55:55.:55:58.

a record high last year with over 3 million people in debt. The

:55:59.:56:03.

government promised to review what creditors should give the people

:56:04.:56:06.

engaged with a debt charities that their debts to not continue to

:56:07.:56:10.

spiral out of control as they work to resolve them. That was due by the

:56:11.:56:14.

end of 2015. When does the government plan to announce that? I

:56:15.:56:19.

have just touched on that in answers to questions earlier, but the

:56:20.:56:23.

importance that we place on the team that will tackle illegal

:56:24.:56:28.

moneylending. But also, we have continued to support funding for

:56:29.:56:34.

debt advice including excellent organisations like Christians

:56:35.:56:38.

against poverty, step change and citizens advice, to help individuals

:56:39.:56:39.

like the ones she mentioned. On Friday I visited Barclay's Bank

:56:40.:56:49.

in Kingston to hear about the fantastic Barclays life skills

:56:50.:56:52.

course which teaches young people, among other things, financial

:56:53.:56:57.

literacy. I can see some candidates for the course here. By making

:56:58.:57:02.

financial education more accessible, to she agreed that we can ensure the

:57:03.:57:06.

financial sector itself supports young people and people through

:57:07.:57:11.

every stage of their lives? I am delighted that he found his

:57:12.:57:15.

visit to Barclays Bank in his constituency so helpful, he will

:57:16.:57:21.

welcome the fact that since 2014, financial education has been part of

:57:22.:57:27.

the national curriculum. Conservative leader of Essex County

:57:28.:57:30.

Council has told the Prime Minister that the 2% social care precept will

:57:31.:57:34.

only cover half the council's increased costs. He has suggested

:57:35.:57:39.

bringing better care funding forward to 2017 and asks for a fairer

:57:40.:57:42.

redistribution of funds. Even Conservative councils had to wait

:57:43.:57:47.

until 2019 for the funding that the Chancellor is allocated. Will he act

:57:48.:57:52.

now to avoid a further crisis in social care? What I can say is that

:57:53.:57:57.

in advance of the spending review, the Conservative leaders of the LGA

:57:58.:58:02.

came to me, one of their specific oppose laws was to introduce the

:58:03.:58:06.

social care precept to help address the shortfall that might otherwise

:58:07.:58:12.

have been. We have put a lot of money into the Better Care Than to

:58:13.:58:17.

make sure that local authorities and the NHS working together are able to

:58:18.:58:20.

meet the challenges of social care over the next few years. Inaudible

:58:21.:58:29.

in boosting the economy has been the creation of enterprise zones. I

:58:30.:58:34.

wonder if he would talk about creating an enterprise zone in the

:58:35.:58:38.

northern part of Nottinghamshire? I know that area and have been to the

:58:39.:58:43.

site with my honourable friend. We were not able to give the go-ahead

:58:44.:58:46.

to the enterprise zone because the business case did not quite stack

:58:47.:58:50.

up, but I have committed to him that I will work with him and the local

:58:51.:58:54.

community to try to get that over the line and get an enterprise zone

:58:55.:59:00.

in place in that area. I had just shared a packed meeting

:59:01.:59:08.

with the honourable member for South Northamptonshire. There was a lot of

:59:09.:59:14.

anger to axe the funding for the CC competition projects. What a funding

:59:15.:59:18.

will the Chancellor provide to come up with a new CC is project? -- CCS

:59:19.:59:31.

project? Help we will double in. Don't leave the chamber, man, I

:59:32.:59:32.

calling you! You are very kind. The member for

:59:33.:59:41.

Sherwood had already asked the same question, that I will ask it again,

:59:42.:59:47.

that is not unusual in this place. My parents formed their small

:59:48.:59:50.

business in the first enterprise zone created when Margaret Thatcher

:59:51.:59:55.

in Telford in 1984. My right honourable friend the Chancellor has

:59:56.:59:59.

carried on in that great Conservative tradition. Could he

:00:00.:00:02.

afford the same opportunities to get on in life and to create jobs to my

:00:03.:00:08.

constituents and those in Sherwood by backing Thoresby colliery as the

:00:09.:00:14.

next and best enterprise zone? I think he has just demonstrated that

:00:15.:00:17.

he is a very smart thinker on his feet and always ready to stand for

:00:18.:00:23.

the interests of his new constituents. As I said to the

:00:24.:00:27.

member for Sherwood, I would love to get the full spree cholerae

:00:28.:00:30.

enterprise zone into a condition where we can give it the go-ahead,

:00:31.:00:35.

and I give him and his neighbour my personal commitment that we will try

:00:36.:00:40.

to do that over the next year or so. The fact that question has been

:00:41.:00:44.

asked does not stop others asking the same question. Repetition is not

:00:45.:00:50.

a novel phenomenon and banners of commons.

:00:51.:00:54.

Can I ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer to ponder the fact that we

:00:55.:00:58.

still have not really tackled productivity in this country. Can I

:00:59.:01:02.

guide him and say could he and his department look at the way in which

:01:03.:01:07.

we further invest in manufacturing skills, because surely he will agree

:01:08.:01:11.

with me that what we want in this country is high skills, high-paid

:01:12.:01:15.

jobs, and you find those in manufacturing? I think the

:01:16.:01:19.

honourable gentlemen is right to draw attention to the fact that the

:01:20.:01:23.

UK has had a productivity challenge for many decades, and the financial

:01:24.:01:27.

crisis caused a significant impairment which had an impact as

:01:28.:01:32.

well. Productivity is improving, but the key weakness in the British

:01:33.:01:36.

economy, consistently identified by everyone who looks at it, is a

:01:37.:01:41.

weakness of skills. Hopefully the apprenticeship levy and the

:01:42.:01:44.

expansion of the apprenticeship programme will go some way to

:01:45.:01:47.

address that historic weakness. (INAUDIBLE)

:01:48.:01:51.

In improving financial inclusion and creating a stronger savings culture.

:01:52.:01:58.

With the opportunity of a Will Counsel For Credit Unions coming to

:01:59.:02:02.

the UK and Northern Ireland later in media, will he continue to build on

:02:03.:02:07.

the work of the credit union expansion programme and back this

:02:08.:02:11.

vital work? I other constituency neighbour is a fine advocate for the

:02:12.:02:15.

excellent industry of credit unions. As he will know, we have back the

:02:16.:02:21.

industry with ?38 million of investment in terms of the credit

:02:22.:02:24.

union expansion project, we will continue to seek ways to back the

:02:25.:02:29.

credit unions. Given that manufacturing remained

:02:30.:02:33.

6.1% below precrisis levels with worrying trends in the manufacture,

:02:34.:02:38.

plant, machinery and pharmaceuticals, will he accept that

:02:39.:02:41.

he and his domestic policy agenda has just as much should an impact as

:02:42.:02:46.

the global factors which he is so keen to blame? He must bear in

:02:47.:02:51.

measure of responsibility and come forward with proposals to halt the

:02:52.:02:54.

decline. Manufacturing makes of a larger

:02:55.:02:57.

sector of the economy than when I became the Chancellor, but there is

:02:58.:03:03.

a huge amount more to do to make the UK more competitive, businesses more

:03:04.:03:07.

competitive, improve skills for manufacturers and the like. I have

:03:08.:03:11.

to say, I suspect she agrees, that the idea of banning manufacturers

:03:12.:03:16.

from paying dividends would not be a particularly sensible way forward.

:03:17.:03:20.

That is another policy of the Labour Party, unfortunately.

:03:21.:03:24.

Is he aware that since he took office in May 2010, the claimant

:03:25.:03:29.

count my constituency has fallen by 62% and the youth unemployment count

:03:30.:03:35.

by 67%? Would he agree that reducing corporation Tax, increasing the

:03:36.:03:38.

personal allowance and reforming welfare has caused these fantastic

:03:39.:03:43.

figures, would he confirmed that his long-term economic plan will

:03:44.:03:46.

continue? We will absolutely deliver the plan in these more difficult

:03:47.:03:54.

global economic conditions. The IMF have not revised down the UK credit

:03:55.:03:58.

forecast, even though they have revised down the global economic

:03:59.:04:03.

forecast. We will invest in Croydon and South London with important

:04:04.:04:05.

transport infrastructure and do everything we can to back homeowners

:04:06.:04:09.

in his constituency, a group I know he particularly champions.

:04:10.:04:16.

Can I return the City Minister to the issue of the cancelled FCA

:04:17.:04:21.

inquiry into culture. The member for Chichester's Parliamentary banking

:04:22.:04:25.

inquiry pointed out that murder on the orient express excuse, everyone

:04:26.:04:30.

was partly responsible but no one was really to blame. She said that

:04:31.:04:34.

ministers had no role in the cancellation of batting wary, will

:04:35.:04:39.

she say, yes or no, whether any civil servants did? -- the

:04:40.:04:45.

cancellation of that inquiry. No. We must move on, demand always

:04:46.:04:49.

exceed supply. We come now to the urgent question,

:04:50.:04:58.

Vista Stephen Phillips? -- Mr Stephen Phillips. (INAUDIBLE)

:04:59.:05:09.

to as the Secretary of State it she will make a statement as to the

:05:10.:05:14.

death from Ebola virus disease of a 22-year-old student in Sierra Leone

:05:15.:05:20.

on the 12th of January 2016? We will come to points of order, they come

:05:21.:05:26.

after urgent questions. I will await the honourable lady's inquiry with

:05:27.:05:32.

interest. To answer the question, the Secretary of State for

:05:33.:05:34.

International Development. Thank you, Mr Speaker, and, indeed,

:05:35.:05:39.

many happy returns. The house will be aware, as my

:05:40.:05:43.

honourable friend has just said, that there is a new case of Ebola

:05:44.:05:47.

that has been confirmed in Sierra Leone. A 22-year-old female student

:05:48.:05:54.

sadly died on the 12th of January. This latest case of Ebola in Sierra

:05:55.:05:59.

Leone demonstrates that we need to stay vigilant. The news came just as

:06:00.:06:04.

the world health organisation formally declared the bowler

:06:05.:06:08.

outbreak in West Africa over following Liberia reaching 22 days

:06:09.:06:13.

without a new case. However, it is not unexpected given the context of

:06:14.:06:18.

this unprecedented outbreak. This new case was identified from a swab

:06:19.:06:23.

taken after death and is currently being investigated. The government

:06:24.:06:27.

of Sierra Leone has activated its national Ebola response plan and

:06:28.:06:31.

rapid work is under way to identify and quarantine people who have had

:06:32.:06:35.

contact with the young woman and to establish a movement in the final

:06:36.:06:39.

few days and weeks before her death. Teams in five district are acting on

:06:40.:06:44.

this information. No other cases have been confirmed to date.

:06:45.:06:49.

The speed of this process reflects the work UK has undertaken with the

:06:50.:06:53.

government of Sierra Leone to develop a national response plan. As

:06:54.:06:58.

the IDC report says, the UK has been at the forefront of the global

:06:59.:07:02.

response to the Ebola outbreak in West Africa. From the very start,

:07:03.:07:05.

leading in Sierra Leone, working hand-in-hand with the government of

:07:06.:07:10.

Sierra Leone, we took on this deadly disease at source by rapidly

:07:11.:07:15.

deploying the best British military personnel and NHS staff, Public

:07:16.:07:20.

Health England, building treatment centres in a matter of weeks,

:07:21.:07:24.

mobilising the international response. We have worked with the

:07:25.:07:28.

government of Sierra Leone to build a health systems and strengthen all

:07:29.:07:33.

aspects of society, including civil society, to allow them to be

:07:34.:07:36.

prepared. We stand by Sierra Leone, as we have always been clear, there

:07:37.:07:41.

is the potential for further cases, which is precisely why our response

:07:42.:07:45.

now is focused on assisting Sierra Leone in isolating and treating any

:07:46.:07:49.

view cases of Ebola before they spread.

:07:50.:07:57.

-- any new cases. I am grateful to her for coming to the house

:07:58.:08:00.

purposely today to answer questions on that subject. I am grateful for

:08:01.:08:07.

her leadership during the Ebola outbreak of 2014/15, as well as to

:08:08.:08:10.

the brave military and civilian personnel who travelled to Sierra

:08:11.:08:13.

Leone to help West Africa in that period. On the 7th of November last

:08:14.:08:18.

year, the world health organisation declared Sierra Leone free of Ebola

:08:19.:08:22.

following a 42 day period during which no new cases were reported. As

:08:23.:08:26.

my right honourable friend has said, the WHO made a further declaration

:08:27.:08:31.

to be fed that the outbreak of Ebola in West Africa was over. My right

:08:32.:08:37.

honourable friends would have been dismayed at the reports yesterday of

:08:38.:08:41.

the death of this young woman from Ebola in the northern Tonkolil

:08:42.:08:50.

district, particularly as she seems to have travelled through three

:08:51.:08:53.

other provinces in the infectious stages. What steps her she taken to

:08:54.:09:00.

determine the source of this outbreak? Is she confident that it

:09:01.:09:06.

can be contained, given the burial customs observed do not seem to the

:09:07.:09:09.

procedures to prevent further contamination? Are the quarantine

:09:10.:09:14.

measures sufficient to ensure that widespread transmission of the virus

:09:15.:09:18.

is unlikely? The assistance provided by the UK during the last out

:09:19.:09:23.

because the British taxpayer ?427 million. My right honourable friend

:09:24.:09:29.

will remember that I first asked about that outbreak on the 18th of

:09:30.:09:33.

June 2014, at a stage when the number of cases was in the tens

:09:34.:09:37.

rather than the thousands. None of this wishes to see a further

:09:38.:09:42.

significant outbreak. Is she working with her officials, the government

:09:43.:09:46.

of Sierra Leone and the WHO to ensure we get on top of the problem

:09:47.:09:50.

at a stage when relatively few individuals are likely to have been

:09:51.:09:53.

exposed? It is fair to say that the worst epidemiological predictions

:09:54.:09:58.

during the last outbreak did not materialise, but more than 11,300

:09:59.:10:03.

people in Africa died of Ebola in 2014/ 15. Many more died of

:10:04.:10:09.

preventable diseases, which an overburdened and fragile health

:10:10.:10:12.

system was not able to deal with at the same time as Ebola. What funding

:10:13.:10:16.

will she make available to the government of Sierra Leone and NGOs

:10:17.:10:20.

in the region to deal with the outbreak and to establish long-term

:10:21.:10:23.

resilience in the health care system for dealing with a disease which may

:10:24.:10:27.

be endemic in the region? Has she held discussions with Ministry of

:10:28.:10:31.

Defence colleagues about the potential for assistance to ensure

:10:32.:10:34.

the disease does not spread further? Does she have confidence at the

:10:35.:10:38.

failings demonstrated by the WHO in the past will not be repeated. To

:10:39.:10:42.

what extent it she confident that there are not further cases of Ebola

:10:43.:10:47.

in Liberia and Guinea? A retesting of samples taken from individuals

:10:48.:10:53.

who died in the ten years prior to the 2014/15 outbreak indicates that

:10:54.:10:56.

Ebola may have been present in West Africa football than a decade, to

:10:57.:10:59.

the extent that it is now endemic, what measures will she and the

:11:00.:11:04.

government support leading to the development of an effective vaccine

:11:05.:11:09.

for the virus, when did she expected to be available? The previous

:11:10.:11:12.

outbreak of Ebola and spread across an interconnected world indicated

:11:13.:11:17.

the threat from the -- to the United Kingdom. Direct flights every

:11:18.:11:21.

comments from Sierra Leone to London, but she will know the

:11:22.:11:26.

previous band was unnecessary and counter-productive. Can she assure

:11:27.:11:32.

the house and the Sierra Leonean diaspora that the mistakes of

:11:33.:11:37.

banning direct flights will not be repeated? The long-term prognosis of

:11:38.:11:40.

those previously infected is not well understood by the medical

:11:41.:11:45.

profession. In cases like that of Pauline Cafferkey, we know it can

:11:46.:11:48.

hide in the body for periods of time. Is the Department of Health

:11:49.:11:53.

aware of the re-emergence in patients who have previously

:11:54.:11:57.

survived the disease? What assistance is being given in West

:11:58.:12:00.

Africa to ensure the long-term health of those who have survived

:12:01.:12:03.

Ebola and may still be able to pass it on to others? What if any

:12:04.:12:08.

monitoring project is her department intend to fund so the disease is

:12:09.:12:12.

stamped out both for individuals in the region and to ensure the

:12:13.:12:15.

bio-security of the UK and those who live here?

:12:16.:12:19.

Before the Secretary of State answers, let me say to the

:12:20.:12:23.

honourable and learned gentleman that his error condition today,

:12:24.:12:28.

which is never in doubt, has been equalled only why his length. --

:12:29.:12:33.

erudition. The honourable gentleman is a sophisticated denizen of the

:12:34.:12:37.

House and he is dealing with a serious matter, but on top of that

:12:38.:12:44.

the honourable and learned gentleman is an illustrious queens Counsel.

:12:45.:12:47.

Perhaps I can express the hope that he does not charge as clients by the

:12:48.:12:51.

word. If he does he will be a great deal richer than they -- and they

:12:52.:12:57.

will be a great deal poorer. From now on we must try to stick to the

:12:58.:13:01.

time limits and I say that in a good spirit because he has raised an

:13:02.:13:04.

important issue and done it in an extremely intelligent way. But if we

:13:05.:13:08.

can operate within the time limits from now on, the House would

:13:09.:13:12.

appreciate it. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I must say I think he would

:13:13.:13:17.

have achieved amazing value for money on the numbers of questions

:13:18.:13:21.

for time spoken. I commend him on that. In response, to the very

:13:22.:13:27.

serious issues that he raises, I think from the very beginning this

:13:28.:13:31.

has been an unprecedented outbreak and we are seeing that even now in

:13:32.:13:36.

the length of time this virus appears to stay in the body of

:13:37.:13:41.

survivors after they fully recover. It is one of the reasons why part of

:13:42.:13:46.

the work that we are doing within Sierra Leone, as we learn about the

:13:47.:13:56.

invocations of this virus's persistence within survivors, is

:13:57.:13:59.

mitigating the risks that it can be passed on, offering safe sex

:14:00.:14:08.

counselling, and we have established a scene in testing and also ensuring

:14:09.:14:16.

free access to health care. -- semen testing. It is critical that we

:14:17.:14:25.

mitigate the risks of people passing on a disease that they might have

:14:26.:14:31.

survived, and there is also a semen testing programme for those aged 15

:14:32.:14:36.

or above. We are working with the public health in the area to make

:14:37.:14:41.

sure that this is in the mounted effectively. This is a country where

:14:42.:14:48.

we saw subsequent cases happen after the people of free point. And that

:14:49.:14:53.

is why we have been so vigilant. Indeed, it is the processes and the

:14:54.:14:56.

systems and the testing that we have put in place with the government of

:14:57.:15:00.

Sierra Leone and that has picked up this particular case and therefore

:15:01.:15:06.

has enabled us to go through the process of contact tracing and

:15:07.:15:10.

quarantine. Although it is known that this particular student had

:15:11.:15:17.

travelled extensively, which makes our task harder. Therefore we work

:15:18.:15:24.

harder, and we have set up mobile field hospitals that can rapidly get

:15:25.:15:29.

to a district if we see an outbreak. He asked about Warren team measures

:15:30.:15:38.

and those are being put in place and indeed, the contact tracing is

:15:39.:15:44.

happening. -- quarantine measures. He asked about the funding which is

:15:45.:15:48.

being put in place and how we are working more broadly to get to what

:15:49.:15:52.

I would call a resilient zero. I think we all expected that having

:15:53.:15:59.

got over the maximum period of the outbreak, which was incredibly

:16:00.:16:02.

difficult, that there would be sporadic cases that would continue

:16:03.:16:06.

to appear, and that is the phase that we are now in. Getting on top

:16:07.:16:11.

of those, as he says, is the way in which we will get to this resilient

:16:12.:16:19.

of -- resilient zero where we can be confident that there will not be

:16:20.:16:23.

future cases. There is funding for that outbreak and that covers some

:16:24.:16:29.

of the things I have mentioned, but also we are working in schools to

:16:30.:16:33.

make sure that issues of water and sanitation, basic steps that

:16:34.:16:40.

community can undertake to minimise the risk of passing on diseases

:16:41.:16:44.

including the bowler, are understood and put in place. And that's

:16:45.:16:48.

district level response mechanism is still there, that we have used so

:16:49.:16:52.

successfully to get over the major outbreak when it was at its peak.

:16:53.:17:01.

And it is worth saying that the hospital of tropical and medical

:17:02.:17:04.

disease is estimated that we saved over 56,000 lives with the work that

:17:05.:17:13.

we did with the government of Sierra Leone to get in the lean back on top

:17:14.:17:17.

of this outbreak. He asked about the progress of vaccinations. Of course

:17:18.:17:21.

one of the things that we had already been involved in prior to

:17:22.:17:28.

this crisis was some of the development of early-stage vaccines.

:17:29.:17:35.

He will know that there are promising candidates there and they

:17:36.:17:39.

give us the prospect of being able to more readily clamped down on

:17:40.:17:43.

future outbreaks. But part of this, as I finish my comments, perhaps is

:17:44.:17:47.

his other point that he made an health system strengthening. One of

:17:48.:17:51.

the key messages that came out from this evil outbreak was that

:17:52.:17:57.

countries like Sierra Leone and Liberia, in the scheme of their

:17:58.:18:03.

history, newly emergent from civil war, were less able to cope simply

:18:04.:18:07.

because their health systems were at an earlier stage of development

:18:08.:18:09.

because of those conflicts. Other countries in the region, Nigeria is

:18:10.:18:14.

one that you might point to, were better able to clamp-down on this

:18:15.:18:21.

outbreak, purely because they had a stronger health system in place but

:18:22.:18:24.

even in that case, there was some way for it to go. So I would

:18:25.:18:32.

reassure the House that it is perhaps not a surprise to see these

:18:33.:18:36.

sporadic additional cases but however, the people, the processes

:18:37.:18:40.

and the systems are in place on the ground in Sierra Leone to identify

:18:41.:18:45.

them and respond rapidly to them. The final thing you mentioned was on

:18:46.:18:50.

flights. The decision we took on direct flights was actually one that

:18:51.:18:55.

we felt was in the interests of our national security. I think it was

:18:56.:18:58.

the right decision to take. Critically, I think in the end the

:18:59.:19:03.

way we got on top of this outbreak was to see the UK partnering and

:19:04.:19:09.

bringing the best of British, our military, doctors and nurses and

:19:10.:19:12.

Public Health England, working with our fantastic Foreign Office, as one

:19:13.:19:16.

team, hand-in-hand with the government of Sierra Leone. To

:19:17.:19:22.

really provide a platform that the rest of the international community

:19:23.:19:26.

could work through themselves. To combat this disease. Again, I would

:19:27.:19:30.

like to put on record my thanks not only to the many DFID staff that I

:19:31.:19:35.

am privileged to lead in my department but to all those other

:19:36.:19:38.

people across government and public sector workers who frankly put their

:19:39.:19:42.

lives on the line in many cases in order to help Sierra Leone get to

:19:43.:19:51.

grips with this terrible crisis. I'm sure the whole house will join me in

:19:52.:19:56.

paying tribute not just to British health workers and military who went

:19:57.:20:01.

to help the people of West Africa in the last Ebola outbreak, but all the

:20:02.:20:05.

local workers, the local health workers who bore the brunt of the

:20:06.:20:08.

campaign against Ebola and the brunt of the deaths. On the question of

:20:09.:20:14.

international development reports, the Secretary of State will be aware

:20:15.:20:19.

that the Commons committee said the government had been too reliant on

:20:20.:20:22.

the World Health Organisation, which eventually declared in August 2015

:20:23.:20:31.

that in fact the government should have listened to other groups, like

:20:32.:20:35.

Medecins Sans Frontieres, who had been warning about Ebola months

:20:36.:20:40.

earlier. Does the secretary of state agree with the committee chairman

:20:41.:20:45.

that the international community relied on the WHO to sound the alarm

:20:46.:20:52.

and the failure to respond quickly enough is now well documented? Does

:20:53.:20:56.

the secretary of state also agree that the bowler cannot be seen in

:20:57.:21:02.

isolation and we have to look at the general issue of access to health

:21:03.:21:10.

care in the region, and building a resilient health system. -- Ebola

:21:11.:21:14.

cannot be seen in isolation. I'm grateful to the honourable lady for

:21:15.:21:17.

those questions. She clearly sets out that the key to success in

:21:18.:21:22.

tackling Ebola was the response of the Sierra Leonean people

:21:23.:21:30.

themselves. And in the end their willingness to run towards tackling

:21:31.:21:32.

disease that instinctively many people would have wanted to run away

:21:33.:21:37.

from. And there were many red cross volunteers from across Africa who

:21:38.:21:40.

went into the region to be part of helping tackle it. And they very

:21:41.:21:48.

much like this. The UK's role was to work hand-in-hand and make sure that

:21:49.:21:51.

our resources and know-how could be brought to bear to finally get on

:21:52.:21:55.

top of this. I think everybody recognises that there were some

:21:56.:22:00.

serious lessons to be learned by the international system in responding

:22:01.:22:05.

to this crisis, and WHO reform is now taking place and that is

:22:06.:22:09.

something that myself and the Secretary of State for Health have

:22:10.:22:13.

had a chance to talk directly about. It is vital that we learn lessons

:22:14.:22:20.

about this crisis to understand how the international system can

:22:21.:22:23.

mobilise more speedily when crisis hits. This was an outbreak that was

:22:24.:22:31.

rapidly spreading but actually starting in the place, a part of the

:22:32.:22:35.

world that was perhaps the least able to initially responds to it

:22:36.:22:44.

itself. The UK, we were actively working much earlier than the

:22:45.:22:49.

official outbreak declaration by the WHO. As early as June or July, we're

:22:50.:22:58.

working to support MSF, who played a key role, alongside many other NGOs.

:22:59.:23:06.

There are lessons to be learned. The report today, in a systematic way,

:23:07.:23:13.

goes through the initial response, and also what happened subsequent to

:23:14.:23:18.

that. I think it is important that WHO reforms and I think it is

:23:19.:23:21.

important that it looks at not only its processes and how it responds,

:23:22.:23:30.

but this emergency response fund that it is setting up is adequately

:23:31.:23:32.

resourced to have the means to response as well as the -- means to

:23:33.:23:37.

respond as well as the strategy. The Select Committee report issued today

:23:38.:23:42.

commends the strong leadership of DFID and the UK Government in

:23:43.:23:46.

coordinating the response to a bowler. But it is critical of the

:23:47.:23:51.

WHO in its delay in designating the outbreak as a public health

:23:52.:23:54.

emergency of international concern. I wonder if the Secretary of State

:23:55.:23:57.

would give us more insight into her discussions with Margaret Chan and

:23:58.:24:02.

confirm that indeed the department is ensuring that WHO really does

:24:03.:24:05.

treat this as a priority in terms of its radical reform needs? There are

:24:06.:24:15.

various different aspects of this but one that is particularly key is

:24:16.:24:18.

the regional response of the WHO and the importance of making sure that

:24:19.:24:25.

at that level emerging outbreaks are clearly identified and in a

:24:26.:24:31.

depoliticised way, identified as outbreaks simply because of the

:24:32.:24:36.

facts on the ground, despite the reticence governments might have

:24:37.:24:39.

about declaring a health emergency. Those are the key changes that we

:24:40.:24:44.

will steadily see with the WHO over time. Critically, we need to be able

:24:45.:24:48.

to mobilise people and one of the other aspects of the WHO reform is

:24:49.:24:53.

to set up an international register of health care responders, much like

:24:54.:25:02.

the one that the UK had that we drew up to tackle Ebola, so we can make

:25:03.:25:05.

sure we have the right people in the right place rapidly the next time a

:25:06.:25:08.

crisis hits. Having said that, this was an unprecedented outbreak. It is

:25:09.:25:13.

the first time that we have seen and he Ebola outbreak spread across

:25:14.:25:18.

borders. Nevertheless we need to see the WHO reform to respond far more

:25:19.:25:23.

quickly and effectively going forward. We echo the dismay at this

:25:24.:25:30.

new case and the tributes paid to those involved in the response.

:25:31.:25:34.

Bearing in mind the IDC report, what more can she say about the steps

:25:35.:25:39.

DFID is taking to monitor the situation in the wider region? What

:25:40.:25:42.

contact does she currently have with service providers on the ground to

:25:43.:25:47.

pick up early warnings and what consideration should she give to the

:25:48.:25:51.

National Academy of medicine's recent report on creating a

:25:52.:25:55.

risk-free world in the future, which called for WHO reform, and the

:25:56.:25:59.

creation of a permanent rescue centre and an investment in pandemic

:26:00.:26:04.

response? The work that is underway on the ground is very much to make

:26:05.:26:08.

sure that all of the framework that we put in place to tackle the major

:26:09.:26:13.

outbreaks now swing into action at the local level again. So that is in

:26:14.:26:21.

relation to isolation of potential Ebola sufferers, and it sits

:26:22.:26:27.

alongside the ongoing surveillance work, which was how we picked up

:26:28.:26:32.

this case in the first place. Of course, one of the things that comes

:26:33.:26:35.

out of this is the need to continue to emphasise the need for safe

:26:36.:26:40.

burials, so that we do not see this case spreading more broadly. And

:26:41.:26:45.

deliver that. But alongside that, of deliver that. But alongside that, of

:26:46.:26:51.

course, I talked about the hospital and treatment centres that are still

:26:52.:26:55.

there in order to provide the kind of isolation units that we need to

:26:56.:26:59.

be able to treat the bowler sufferers effectively, and lab

:27:00.:27:06.

testing. This is a legacy from what the UK was able to do with Sierra

:27:07.:27:11.

Leone that means they are better placed to deal with this particular

:27:12.:27:13.

case but I should emphasise to the House that as we go through

:27:14.:27:18.

contracts tracing periods, the quarantine period for high risk

:27:19.:27:23.

contact, inevitably there may be some further cases that could

:27:24.:27:30.

emerge. And this is all part of the eradication of Ebola, and getting to

:27:31.:27:34.

what I call resilience zero. Unfortunately we do not expect to

:27:35.:27:39.

see a situation where it suddenly switches off overnight and that is

:27:40.:27:42.

why we were so keen to make sure that some of these underlying

:27:43.:27:47.

processes, having the right people in place and the right surveillance,

:27:48.:27:53.

remains there. In order to be able to deal with these sorts of

:27:54.:27:57.

situations. He asked about WHO reform and the emergency response.

:27:58.:28:01.

And he is right to talk about that. Part of this needs to ensure that we

:28:02.:28:07.

have funded international resources to enable the WHO to put into

:28:08.:28:11.

practice the new strategy is that it is now developing. The UK was one of

:28:12.:28:16.

the initial contributors to the fund set up in 2000 within the WHO, but

:28:17.:28:20.

we are strongly lobbying other countries to join us.

:28:21.:28:25.

Our thoughts are very much with the people of Sierra Leone. The

:28:26.:28:31.

Secretary of State said last July that the UK will stay the course

:28:32.:28:38.

until Ebola is defeated. Will she confirmed that the United Kingdom

:28:39.:28:39.

will stay the course until...

:28:40.:29:08.

In the context of this outbreak, there was a point in time where

:29:09.:29:10.

people were extremely concerned about its potential to arrive here

:29:11.:29:18.

in the UK. It is not just in there interests that we do this work, it

:29:19.:29:23.

is in our interest that we have a W H O that is able to respond to these

:29:24.:29:27.

sorts of national health emergencies. -- International health

:29:28.:29:33.

emergencies. Can I congratulate the end... Honourable gentleman on

:29:34.:29:39.

securing this question. In the select committee report published

:29:40.:29:42.

today that has been referred to, one of the central recommendations is

:29:43.:29:48.

that the UK should take the lead in efforts for reform about

:29:49.:29:52.

organisation. Can the Secretary of State tell us more about the

:29:53.:29:56.

timescale of the reforms we do not lose the opportunity? The reform is

:29:57.:30:02.

already under way. I met this comparatively recently with Margaret

:30:03.:30:06.

Chan, who heads up the W O'Connor about this. There are already

:30:07.:30:13.

changes being made across-the-board. The key thing that remains to be

:30:14.:30:17.

worked on, as I said earlier, is bottoming out the overall strategy

:30:18.:30:22.

for improving and emergency responses in relation to the WHO,

:30:23.:30:27.

making sure there is resourcing, and the issue of working with countries

:30:28.:30:31.

who are perhaps most at risk if a healthy emergency occurs, for them

:30:32.:30:38.

to particularly be able to deal with that more effectively. It is not

:30:39.:30:43.

just about having a better system in place, it is about targeting,

:30:44.:30:47.

frankly, where we know the greatest potential holes in an international

:30:48.:30:50.

response might be. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Her

:30:51.:30:56.

department, our medical professionals, our Armed Forces can

:30:57.:31:00.

be proud of the assistance they gave to Sierra Leone during the Ebola

:31:01.:31:06.

outbreak of 2014/ 15. As a member of this Haas with a Sierra Leonean

:31:07.:31:11.

mother, will she assure the house my family and the wider Sierra Leonean

:31:12.:31:17.

diaspora that support to Sierra Leone will continue until the

:31:18.:31:23.

facilities locally are able to withstand further health

:31:24.:31:27.

difficulties like this, and also that our future economic and

:31:28.:31:30.

diplomatic relationship with Sierra Leone will not be defined by this

:31:31.:31:37.

darkest period in such it went for country's history?

:31:38.:31:39.

I think he puts his point extremely well. The role of the diaspora

:31:40.:31:46.

working with many of those links that they naturally have back in

:31:47.:31:50.

Sierra Leone was critical, actually. I remember the meetings I had with

:31:51.:31:54.

diaspora here to make sure there were those lines of communication

:31:55.:31:58.

open between the work that the Foreign Office was doing and people

:31:59.:32:04.

on the ground themselves. He talks about the need and the hope that

:32:05.:32:08.

Sierra Leone can bounce back from what it has been through. It was a

:32:09.:32:12.

terrible, terrible outbreak. I remember I was there three times

:32:13.:32:19.

over a very short period, but it was only on my third visit that I felt

:32:20.:32:25.

like I got to see some of the country, in essence, and its spirit.

:32:26.:32:30.

Because the first two times were so embedded in crisis, it was really a

:32:31.:32:34.

different place. Before this crisis hit, Sierra Leone was one of the

:32:35.:32:37.

fastest-growing economies in the world. Our hope, and the omission we

:32:38.:32:41.

have to have for a country like Sierra Leone, is that it really can

:32:42.:32:47.

bounce back now. I would finish by saying that the challenge is to

:32:48.:32:51.

bring the same urgency that we saw in responding to Ebola to the rest

:32:52.:32:55.

of our country's develop and. What we saw in that response was when we

:32:56.:33:00.

really worked together, when there is a country owned strategy, we have

:33:01.:33:03.

all the different stakeholders pulling in the same direction, we

:33:04.:33:08.

can cover a lot of ground quickly when there is political will. That

:33:09.:33:16.

has much, much broader lessons for development progress

:33:17.:33:18.

internationally, particularly in Sierra Leone. We are trying to make

:33:19.:33:22.

sure that the momentum keeps up even though the outbreak is steadily

:33:23.:33:26.

being eradicated. Further to that very welcome point

:33:27.:33:31.

from the Minister, will she undertake to ensure that the support

:33:32.:33:35.

towards resilience won't just be to support the infrastructure of a

:33:36.:33:37.

fragile health care system that clearly needs to be supported, but

:33:38.:33:42.

also to support village development committees in Sierra Leone who

:33:43.:33:47.

proved such an effective and important network of mobilisation,

:33:48.:33:50.

whose capacity will be relevant to the other challengers, including

:33:51.:33:54.

those diseases which lost a priority during the Ebola crisis?

:33:55.:34:02.

He talks about a number of different but related points. The work at

:34:03.:34:06.

community level proved to be pivotal in enabling us to tackle Ebola. Both

:34:07.:34:13.

in terms of steadily ensuring that people who were victims of a bowler

:34:14.:34:17.

were buried safely and did not pass the virus on, but also then in

:34:18.:34:23.

improving surveillance, and it is the surveillance now that is one of

:34:24.:34:26.

the key planks of making sure that we never see another case of Ebola

:34:27.:34:30.

that romps away in the way that we saw it take hold in 2014. There is a

:34:31.:34:39.

lot more work to be done. Improving district and community level health

:34:40.:34:43.

care is absolutely vital and, indeed, it was the lack of a strong

:34:44.:34:47.

district and community level health care system that enabled this virus

:34:48.:34:52.

to really take hold. I talked about the legacy of a bowler, if there is

:34:53.:34:58.

one thing we were able to put in place it was very good command and

:34:59.:35:01.

control -- the legacy of Ebola. It went right from the Ministry of

:35:02.:35:05.

health and the president to the most removed communities. That was put in

:35:06.:35:10.

place to deal with the crisis, but now it can really help drive

:35:11.:35:13.

improvements in community health care and to build on the back of

:35:14.:35:18.

that skeleton, if you like, for the benefit of improving health more

:35:19.:35:24.

generally in Sierra Leone. Could I thank my honourable friend

:35:25.:35:29.

for asking this urgent question and congratulate the Secretary of State

:35:30.:35:32.

for the way she responded? My constituents in Kettering are hugely

:35:33.:35:37.

proud of the fantastic deployment of Armed Forces and civilian NHS

:35:38.:35:43.

personnel to tackle this crisis. Can I say to the Secretary of State, I

:35:44.:35:47.

don't think the full extent of the good news about this country's

:35:48.:35:50.

involvement in this crisis is out there. I don't think most people

:35:51.:35:56.

know that this country saved 56,000 lives as a result of our

:35:57.:36:00.

intervention. She shot with the House is a more good news about the

:36:01.:36:06.

involvement of this country as the world's leading responded to this

:36:07.:36:10.

huge crisis -- could she shout with the House some more good news?

:36:11.:36:16.

I think the numbers of lives directly saved because of the work

:36:17.:36:22.

that the UK was able to do is staggering. You can actually see the

:36:23.:36:30.

epidemic curve bending upwards and then steadily working with the

:36:31.:36:33.

government to wrestle it down over a period of months. It was extremely

:36:34.:36:38.

difficult work that required a huge amount of effort. In terms of what

:36:39.:36:47.

we did, we had 1100 -- 1500 military personnel, six UK treatment centres

:36:48.:36:52.

were provided in a matter of weeks, we trained over 4000 Sierra Leonean

:36:53.:36:56.

health-care workers, we deployed 150 NHS volunteers. They worked on

:36:57.:37:02.

supporting over 1500 treatment and isolation beds, more than half of

:37:03.:37:10.

the beds treating... That were available to treat Sierra Leoneans

:37:11.:37:15.

in that country. We now have a 36 bed mobile field hospital, there

:37:16.:37:20.

were 100 Public Health England staff that help set up three laboratories.

:37:21.:37:26.

We deliver 28,000 tonnes of aid, we delivered more than a million

:37:27.:37:29.

protective equipment suit is for people who were having to work, as

:37:30.:37:34.

it were, in the red zone, directly dealing with people with Ebola. We

:37:35.:37:41.

supported over 140 burial teams, we had a Royal Navy support ship, we

:37:42.:37:47.

had Merlin helicopters. It was a phenomenal response across

:37:48.:37:51.

Government, I am very proud to have been part of it. I thank him for his

:37:52.:37:56.

question. It is easy after these crises have been responded to do

:37:57.:38:02.

very much move on and lose just how important it was for the UK and how

:38:03.:38:05.

valuable the role was that we played.

:38:06.:38:11.

I very much support her efforts so far, I agree with her comments about

:38:12.:38:15.

the need for economic reconstruction in Sierra Leone in the future, too.

:38:16.:38:22.

She will also have heard the Chief Medical Officer of Sierra Leone, who

:38:23.:38:28.

is reported as saying that in one case the patient showed no signs or

:38:29.:38:31.

symptoms that fitted the case definition of Ebola. Given this very

:38:32.:38:38.

disturbing fact, what are the wider public health implications for us in

:38:39.:38:41.

the United Kingdom and what discussions has she had about this

:38:42.:38:47.

specific issue, with Public Health England, the Department of Health

:38:48.:38:49.

and the Foreign Commonwealth Office?

:38:50.:38:53.

We obviously continue to have a substantial team in Sierra Leone

:38:54.:38:58.

that is working directly on the ground, and part of the response to

:38:59.:39:04.

this latest case, although that response has been, of course, led by

:39:05.:39:08.

the government of Sierra Leone, and the real test of whether we are

:39:09.:39:11.

working effectively as whether we can in time step back and see the

:39:12.:39:15.

help system strengthening via that can take care of these sorts of

:39:16.:39:21.

outbreaks. We are investigating this particular case right now. He talks

:39:22.:39:27.

about some of the challenges of identification, it is why the

:39:28.:39:31.

surveillance is so important. It is following some of the procedures on

:39:32.:39:36.

taking swabs of all deaths that picked up that this was Ebola. At

:39:37.:39:41.

this stage of this response we have had to steadily work out what the

:39:42.:39:46.

most effective route forward is. We are continuing to do that as we come

:39:47.:39:51.

from new challenges, frankly, I can do what we have seen over recent

:39:52.:39:56.

days. I think the House can be reassured that we are working

:39:57.:40:01.

hand-in-hand, we have the resources in place and we also have fantastic

:40:02.:40:05.

medical experts who can really help us ground any strategy in terms of

:40:06.:40:12.

the science and how to take those are facts on the ground and respond

:40:13.:40:18.

to them effectively. We should be very proud of the role

:40:19.:40:22.

that the British military, the British health workers and the

:40:23.:40:27.

volunteers as well, under the leadership of DfID in Sierra Leone

:40:28.:40:32.

in tackling Ebola, but I think this latest incident which sadly led to

:40:33.:40:37.

the death of someone in Freetown just highlights how we must remain

:40:38.:40:43.

vigilant to this terrible disease. Will my right honourable friend sure

:40:44.:40:50.

this House that DfID will continue to press to be weighed show and the

:40:51.:40:53.

international community to continue to play a part not just in

:40:54.:40:57.

monitoring but strengthening and further developing public health

:40:58.:41:00.

systems in Sierra Leone? I strongly agree. We will be playing

:41:01.:41:05.

that role, we already are and will continue to do so. Much of it is

:41:06.:41:10.

pushed forward by the Department of Health, and it's very close working

:41:11.:41:18.

relationship with the WHO. It is vital that we fix some of the

:41:19.:41:21.

underlying problems that led to Ebola taking hold in the first

:41:22.:41:24.

place, which essentially means health system strengthening on the

:41:25.:41:29.

ground but also a better responder system internationally in order to

:41:30.:41:32.

deal with crises when they are inevitably emerge around the world.

:41:33.:41:38.

The comment that the Secretary of State made about supporting Sierra

:41:39.:41:48.

Leone, we have been very proud in Hull to be twinned with Freetown for

:41:49.:41:52.

many years, we have had many reciprocal visits, especially with

:41:53.:41:56.

teachers. I wonder whether the department was considering what more

:41:57.:42:00.

we could do to strengthen the reciprocal visits, to ensure

:42:01.:42:04.

support, especially in education, to that country?

:42:05.:42:07.

I will perhaps take away her ideas and thoughts and respond to her

:42:08.:42:11.

following this urgent question today. She is right to highlight

:42:12.:42:15.

education, one of the key issues we are now working on is getting

:42:16.:42:20.

children back into school. Particularly for girls, who may have

:42:21.:42:23.

been out of school, then we have to, frankly, make sure they get into

:42:24.:42:28.

school in a way that is not always easy, and also for orphans. There is

:42:29.:42:33.

a number of orphans as a result of the Ebola crisis, so education

:42:34.:42:37.

matters, not just in terms of broader public health but, of

:42:38.:42:40.

course, the schooling for children, many of whom were out of school for

:42:41.:42:45.

a year. I will reflect on the points she has made about the important

:42:46.:42:49.

links between her own local community and Freetown.

:42:50.:42:56.

The Secretary of State's actions have undoubtedly saved thousands of

:42:57.:43:00.

lives and I pay tribute to the efforts of the UK Government.

:43:01.:43:08.

However there is a charity doing great work in Sierra Leone who

:43:09.:43:13.

described the response to the orphans as to patchy across the

:43:14.:43:17.

country. What more can the secretary of state do to make it easier for

:43:18.:43:24.

small of aid to be provided on the ground to make a difference? We did

:43:25.:43:30.

have a particular fund that was able to enable us to provide funding to

:43:31.:43:37.

some of these smaller charities. As he will probably be aware, the main

:43:38.:43:41.

challenge at the beginning was putting in place all the key planks

:43:42.:43:45.

of a successful strategy which we were able to do, but smaller NGOs

:43:46.:43:49.

did play a key role and I would like did play a key role and I would like

:43:50.:43:52.

to pay tribute to the one that he highlights. DFID also did work to

:43:53.:44:00.

support orphans, many of whom would have otherwise been in incredibly

:44:01.:44:05.

vulnerable positions throughout this crisis, and we are still continuing

:44:06.:44:09.

to do that because as he will be aware, many survivors of the bowler

:44:10.:44:17.

do suffer a stigma as a result of having had the virus. -- Ebola.

:44:18.:44:21.

There is work underway to make sure that we integrate people into their

:44:22.:44:26.

families and where we find orphans, wherever possible, we help them get

:44:27.:44:33.

back in touch with their extended family. I warmed to the words that

:44:34.:44:40.

the Secretary of State said about the holistic approach to

:44:41.:44:46.

reconstruction in Sierra Leone, but it is the whole of West Africa. He

:44:47.:44:55.

bowler knows no boundaries. I know that she has paid tribute to our

:44:56.:44:58.

troops and all the effort that went on but there are some individuals.

:44:59.:45:09.

We all remember the diary from the young doctor from Huddersfield, the

:45:10.:45:13.

heart-warming reports. But also the aid agencies, the aid agencies,

:45:14.:45:23.

including where my own daughter works, but we have to learn the

:45:24.:45:27.

lessons. I used to work for the World Bank and I had reservations

:45:28.:45:31.

about the effectiveness of the WHO, on many occasions. And this was a

:45:32.:45:37.

time to reflect on whether the World Health Organisation is fit for

:45:38.:45:40.

purpose. And if it is not, we should try to do something about it. There

:45:41.:45:49.

were a number of British-based NGOs that played a vital role in helping

:45:50.:45:55.

to respond successfully to Ebola in Sierra Leone and in other countries

:45:56.:46:00.

and communities that were affected. In particular Save the Children, who

:46:01.:46:08.

were pivotal in enabling us to open the first treatment hospital that we

:46:09.:46:12.

were able to put in place, and that saved lives. For many of those NGOs,

:46:13.:46:19.

it was a real step into the dark, in a way, to have many of their

:46:20.:46:26.

volunteers working in such dangerous environments, and the training that

:46:27.:46:28.

needed to go alongside that. I want to take the opportunity to pay

:46:29.:46:33.

tribute to all of those volunteers who went out there, not just as I

:46:34.:46:37.

have set out from our own public sector, but many of them from all

:46:38.:46:43.

walks of life, frankly. They did an amazing job and they save lives. And

:46:44.:46:49.

he sets out that the international response, and the international

:46:50.:46:54.

system needs to improve, as we have heard from other questions in the

:46:55.:46:57.

chamber today. He is absolutely right. This was a crisis that we

:46:58.:47:08.

must learn lessons from. There were positive lessons about what it takes

:47:09.:47:14.

to confront Ebola but there are also negative lessons about how, frankly,

:47:15.:47:18.

a better job could have been done. My final point would be, looking

:47:19.:47:25.

forward to reconstruction and recovery, I represented the UK at a

:47:26.:47:28.

conference last year at the UN, hosted by the Secretary General,

:47:29.:47:33.

which was all about mobilising resources and effort around the

:47:34.:47:42.

country owned plans in in Liberia and Guinea, so there is one strategy

:47:43.:47:46.

that we are linked Heinz to help those countries get behind their

:47:47.:47:56.

feet. Dashed back on their feet. Dashed back on their feet. I welcome

:47:57.:48:04.

the responses so far. The work is not just about saving lives, but

:48:05.:48:09.

saving lives in this country as well. Demonstrating that maintaining

:48:10.:48:16.

military capabilities, delivering our international objectives are,

:48:17.:48:19.

voluntary and not exclusive. What discussions have the Secretary of

:48:20.:48:23.

State had with the Ministry of Defence about the potential for

:48:24.:48:27.

support if it proves to be needed? We hope that the procedures and the

:48:28.:48:36.

framework that we have left on the ground will be the best and most

:48:37.:48:41.

effective way to be able to respond to this latest incident. And we can

:48:42.:48:45.

also learn from Liberia's experience, where they went through

:48:46.:48:49.

a period of being free of Ebola and then they saw some fresh cases. I

:48:50.:48:53.

hope that we will be able to use those existing structures to be able

:48:54.:48:56.

to respond but I think that if there is one thing that we have seen over

:48:57.:49:03.

the past 12 years, our fantastic MOD often stands ready to be part of the

:49:04.:49:09.

UK humanitarian response, not just in relation to leave bowler but in

:49:10.:49:14.

typhoon I am in Nepal, and it plays a unique role in enabling this

:49:15.:49:21.

country to mobilise. I think as effectively as any in this world.

:49:22.:49:26.

Playing our part in helping to save lives when disaster hits. Firstly, I

:49:27.:49:33.

would like to commend the work of everybody who has been involved in

:49:34.:49:37.

tackling Ebola. Given the issues highlighted, can the Secretary of

:49:38.:49:44.

State outline what lessons have been learned by engaging cultural leaders

:49:45.:49:47.

and working with cultural norms in order to provide a cohesive response

:49:48.:49:53.

that is fully implement it. -- fully implemented. Of course, she

:49:54.:49:57.

represent a constituency that has our Scottish DFID headquarters.

:49:58.:50:03.

Again, those staff played a key raw in helping us shape the response,

:50:04.:50:07.

and I would like to say a huge thank you to them. The issue of working

:50:08.:50:14.

with communities is absolutely vital. -- a key role. We have to

:50:15.:50:19.

work with the cultures that are already there. You cannot impose on

:50:20.:50:23.

people. And indeed, the leadership that was shown from the top, from

:50:24.:50:28.

the president and then at the district level by community and

:50:29.:50:31.

religious leaders, particularly around safe burials, really made the

:50:32.:50:37.

difference. And it was once we were able to get that percentage of safe

:50:38.:50:41.

burials up towards 100%, that was when we stopped the onward spread

:50:42.:50:46.

from being at its peak. It was after getting the treatment beds in place

:50:47.:50:54.

that we were able to start improving our survival rates. And then working

:50:55.:50:58.

with communities, with the help of community leaders, helping people to

:50:59.:51:03.

understand how they could stay safe. And not catch this virus. And how

:51:04.:51:06.

quarantining people is actually in their interests, although it is

:51:07.:51:13.

difficult, to help save their own family. Bringing communities with

:51:14.:51:17.

us, and the role that community leaders play, also community

:51:18.:51:21.

mobiliser is, many times young people who went into communities to

:51:22.:51:24.

talk to them about these issues, that was one of the key planks that

:51:25.:51:29.

helped us turn the corner, but it took time. Would be Secretary of

:51:30.:51:38.

State agree that had not been from the commitment delivered under the

:51:39.:51:44.

coalition, for a 0.7% GNI, that it might have been more difficult to

:51:45.:51:49.

deliver on the scale and with the speed that the government were able

:51:50.:51:54.

to deliver on Ebola in Sierra Leone, and that it would have certainly

:51:55.:52:00.

have restricted the government's ability to negotiate with the World

:52:01.:52:02.

Health Organisation if we were not able to stand up in front of other

:52:03.:52:06.

countries and say we had delivered on that 0.7% commitment? There is no

:52:07.:52:12.

doubt that the fact that this country has finally delivered on a

:52:13.:52:19.

promise we made many years ago on meeting that commitment, of course

:52:20.:52:22.

that gives us huge credibility. I would also say that our influence

:52:23.:52:29.

goes beyond that because what we consistently do as a country very

:52:30.:52:35.

positively is helped shape the response so that it is not just a

:52:36.:52:39.

significant response from the UK, it is a thoughtful response that helps

:52:40.:52:44.

to shape strategy so that the money that is going into that response,

:52:45.:52:49.

wherever it is from, frankly, has the biggest impact on the ground.

:52:50.:52:53.

Whether that is leading on Ebola or the work we're doing on women and

:52:54.:52:57.

girls, and tackling female genital mutilation, or the work we're doing

:52:58.:53:03.

other crises in Syria, shaping job creation and employment and

:53:04.:53:06.

education, because we know that is what refugees need if they want to

:53:07.:53:10.

have a viable option of staying in that region, I think the UK's work

:53:11.:53:15.

goes beyond simply doing a lot. I think what we're doing is also smart

:53:16.:53:20.

and it is helping to make sure that the international community's

:53:21.:53:25.

responds more broccoli also smart. I think I had noticed earlier a point

:53:26.:53:35.

of order. I would like to raise a point of order. During Treasury

:53:36.:53:39.

questions, the Chancellor was in an exchange with the Shadow Chancellor

:53:40.:53:43.

and he used the term, had he lost his marbles, which I think was

:53:44.:53:49.

unparliamentary. I also would like to say that this comment comes in

:53:50.:53:52.

the week when the government has been exposed as leading mental

:53:53.:53:57.

health services underfunded. What the Chancellor has said goes to the

:53:58.:54:01.

heart of their callous attitudes towards vulnerable people and I

:54:02.:54:05.

wanted to put that on the record. I am grateful to the honourable lady

:54:06.:54:09.

for raising the point of order and putting it on the record. I did not

:54:10.:54:13.

make the immediate judgment that it was unparliamentary. I think it was

:54:14.:54:18.

intended in a jocular spirit. Of course, we all have two-way our

:54:19.:54:24.

words carefully in this place, and think of the possible locations of

:54:25.:54:28.

language chosen. I stand by the judgment made. Equally, the

:54:29.:54:33.

honourable lady has taken the opportunity to make her own point

:54:34.:54:38.

about it, and to make a wider point about an important public policy

:54:39.:54:42.

issue in the process. And it is on the record of what she has said and

:54:43.:54:47.

I thank for doing so. Mr Hywel Williams, a point of order. You have

:54:48.:54:53.

certified that there are instruments that relate to England only and that

:54:54.:54:59.

affects majority footing. Thousands of English students study at Bangor

:55:00.:55:02.

University and they are constituents of mine. Can you advise me how I

:55:03.:55:06.

might represent their views in full in voting lobbies? The honourable

:55:07.:55:11.

gentleman, I thank him for his point of order and his characteristic

:55:12.:55:16.

courtesy in notifying me in advance. He asks how he can represent the

:55:17.:55:23.

interests of his constituents in relation to the educational

:55:24.:55:26.

regulations before the House. This does give me the opportunity to

:55:27.:55:31.

explain the situation. Although I have certified this instrument as

:55:32.:55:38.

relating exclusively to England, the prayer to annul it requires a

:55:39.:55:47.

majority both of all members and of members representing English

:55:48.:55:51.

constituencies, so he is perfectly entitled to vote on it. The tests

:55:52.:55:57.

that the standing order sets is that every provision of the instrument

:55:58.:56:05.

relates exclusively to England, and is within devolved legislative

:56:06.:56:08.

competence. I am satisfied that this instrument meet that test. Informing

:56:09.:56:15.

my judgment, I am guided by advice both from speakers Council, and from

:56:16.:56:21.

the public to Bill office. Our exchange is on the record and I hope

:56:22.:56:24.

it will be useful to the honourable gentleman in such exchanges or

:56:25.:56:30.

communication as take place. Further to that point of order, I shall

:56:31.:56:35.

discover whether there is courtesy of the right honourable gentleman,

:56:36.:56:37.

David Hanson. I accept fully your interpretation,

:56:38.:56:48.

it is right and proper. My point of order is what opportunity is there

:56:49.:56:51.

for members who believe there is an interest in Wales to make

:56:52.:56:56.

representations to you prior to your certification of that decision?

:56:57.:57:01.

There are issues, as the honourable friend for Wrexham will point out,

:57:02.:57:04.

on budget and the communities such as ours. I have only just learned in

:57:05.:57:10.

the last few moments of your certification prior to entering the

:57:11.:57:13.

chamber this morning of this particular matter. For future

:57:14.:57:19.

reference, what process is there to make those representations?

:57:20.:57:22.

Self-evidently, we as Welsh members believe there is an interest in our

:57:23.:57:26.

constituencies on these matters. If memory serves me correctly, I

:57:27.:57:32.

announced the decision on this matter on the 7th of January,

:57:33.:57:37.

therefore there has been a period of no fewer than 12 days in which it is

:57:38.:57:42.

open to honourable and right honourable members to make

:57:43.:57:47.

representations. Moreover, in relation, not, I concede, two

:57:48.:57:52.

instruments, but to legislation, the House will now be conscious or will

:57:53.:57:58.

start to become conscious that it is my frequent practice to make a

:57:59.:58:04.

provisional certification, and that is subject to review cheering the

:58:05.:58:10.

passage of a piece of legislation depending upon the sequence of

:58:11.:58:14.

events. Therefore if during such periods members feel that their

:58:15.:58:19.

point of view has not been heard, and that if I hear it I may reach a

:58:20.:58:25.

different judgment, they should take the opportunity. The Right

:58:26.:58:27.

Honourable gentleman looked rather sceptical when I said that judgment

:58:28.:58:31.

had been made about this matters in several days ago. I would want to

:58:32.:58:37.

emphasise that there is no intention at all to deny members the

:58:38.:58:42.

opportunity to make representations, indeed, rather the contrary. I would

:58:43.:58:46.

very politely point out to the right honourable gentleman and to the

:58:47.:58:52.

House that this procedure is a procedure that the House has decided

:58:53.:58:53.

I should operate, and I am seeking I should operate, and I am seeking

:58:54.:58:59.

to operate to the best of my ability, and extremely fairly. It is

:59:00.:59:06.

not, however, the Speaker's procedure, it is a judgment the

:59:07.:59:10.

House has made, I am making the best job of it that I can. The right

:59:11.:59:16.

honourable gentleman is intimating from a sedentary position that his

:59:17.:59:23.

facial expressions were those not of scepticism but of gratitude. I am

:59:24.:59:29.

for that helpful clarification, as for that helpful clarification, as

:59:30.:59:34.

will an expectant nation also be. Point of order, Mr Ian Lucas.

:59:35.:59:39.

I am very grateful. Further to the point of order, I am particularly

:59:40.:59:41.

grateful that you pointed out this grateful that you pointed out this

:59:42.:59:45.

appalling procedure is not your procedure, it is a procedure which,

:59:46.:59:50.

unfortunately, the house authorised to do implement and is subject to

:59:51.:59:55.

standing orders which, of course, you are acting upon. The difficulty,

:59:56.:00:00.

Mr Speaker, is that the notification and notice is very late for those of

:00:01.:00:08.

us like me who have constituent at the University in my constituency

:00:09.:00:12.

directly affected by this. In the spirit of being helpful, I would

:00:13.:00:15.

like to point out that the procedure committee, of which I am a member,

:00:16.:00:20.

is undertaking an inquiry into this appalling procedure and will be

:00:21.:00:27.

those who are motivated, like my those who are motivated, like my

:00:28.:00:33.

very good friend who actually attended that university and can

:00:34.:00:40.

vote today in a way that those MPs from Wales cannot, those who are

:00:41.:00:46.

motivated to make representations to the procedure committee.

:00:47.:00:52.

First of all, I must emphasise that all members can vote on this today.

:00:53.:00:59.

I don't want him to develop, and it would be very sad and worrying if he

:01:00.:01:04.

did, a persecution complex. I would not want the honourable gentlemen to

:01:05.:01:08.

feel that he is excluded. When he says he is making his point of order

:01:09.:01:12.

by way of being helpful, I can't think I would doubt it for a moment!

:01:13.:01:16.

I don't think he ever intends anything other than to be helpful to

:01:17.:01:20.

me, the house and the nation and his constituents. He can certainly vote

:01:21.:01:27.

on the matter. The house will have been struck by the honourable

:01:28.:01:32.

gentlemen's use of his adjective in relation to the procedure. I did not

:01:33.:01:37.

make any evaluation of the procedure, I made the factual point

:01:38.:01:40.

that it is not something introduced by the Speaker, it is something that

:01:41.:01:45.

the House has said the speaker shall do, I am the servant of the house,

:01:46.:01:49.

doing it to the best of my ability. He has made his own assessment of

:01:50.:01:53.

the procedure and he is, as he has pointed out, a distinguished order

:01:54.:01:57.

-- ornament of the procedure committee. Numbers who wish to make

:01:58.:02:02.

representations to procedure in the ultimate showman should do so. The

:02:03.:02:08.

honourable gentlemen has helpfully advertise that opportunity.

:02:09.:02:18.

I suspect on a separate Magna... Matter, another point of order. I

:02:19.:02:23.

was astonished on Friday lunchtime to be told by a constituent that the

:02:24.:02:28.

Prime Minister was visiting a mosque in my constituency on Monday

:02:29.:02:30.

morning. Having followed that up, I was told that was the case, but they

:02:31.:02:36.

refused to tell me where the visit was even though I had already told

:02:37.:02:40.

them that I knew. It was only Monday morning when they finally told me

:02:41.:02:44.

where be, having not told me in the first place. Apart from the keystone

:02:45.:02:50.

thinking they should not tell a thinking they should not tell a

:02:51.:02:54.

sitting member of Parliament but his constituents have found out, can I

:02:55.:02:59.

ask your advice and Parliamentary protocol? This meant that I did not

:03:00.:03:03.

have the opportunity either to liaise with the wonderful mosque,

:03:04.:03:08.

who do wonderful work in terms of integration, or to speak to the

:03:09.:03:11.

Prime Minister's offers to give him I thought and advice on their work

:03:12.:03:17.

before his visit? I rather imagine a pregnancy thinks of little else in

:03:18.:03:20.

the course of the planning of his day than of the merits of receiving

:03:21.:03:26.

in such terms as the honourable gentlemen thinks fit and at such

:03:27.:03:31.

length is necessary his advice -- I rather imagine the Prime Minister

:03:32.:03:34.

thinks of little else. It occurs to me of the top of my head that it

:03:35.:03:38.

would have been open to representatives of the mosque to

:03:39.:03:42.

notify the honourable gentlemen in a timely way. On the matter of the

:03:43.:03:49.

protocol, whereby members should be notified, I would say that it is

:03:50.:03:54.

best for colleagues to interpret their responsibility in this matter

:03:55.:03:58.

broadly, that is to say rather than... I am not refer into any

:03:59.:04:03.

particular case, taking a narrow view and thinking that notification

:04:04.:04:07.

would take place at a very late stage, it is better to notify a

:04:08.:04:13.

colleague well in advance of an intention to visit his or her

:04:14.:04:16.

constituency. My own personal view is that where we are dealing with

:04:17.:04:20.

colleagues who are honourable and write honourable members, it is a

:04:21.:04:25.

courtesy to give more information rather than less. I hope that is

:04:26.:04:32.

helpful to the honourable gentlemen, and the House? There are always

:04:33.:04:37.

examples of these matters which a rife from time to time.

:04:38.:04:42.

-- which arrive. We come to the ten minute rule motion of the honourable

:04:43.:04:46.

member for Carshalton and Warrington.

:04:47.:04:50.

Mr Tom brake. I beg to move at least be given for me to bring in a bill

:04:51.:04:54.

to amend the Freedom of Information Act 2000 to remove promotion --

:04:55.:05:00.

provisions relating ministers to overrule decisions of the

:05:01.:05:03.

information Commissioner and an information Tribunal, to limit the

:05:04.:05:05.

time allowed for public authorities to respond Baltic consideration of

:05:06.:05:10.

the public interest, to extend the the public interest, to extend the

:05:11.:05:14.

FOIA act to cover private companies, social enterprises, charities

:05:15.:05:20.

contracted to carry out work for local authorities, the Royal

:05:21.:05:24.

household and connected purposes. I am no stranger to as the light ten

:05:25.:05:28.

minute rule Bill 's, this is the third bill on this subject I have

:05:29.:05:33.

promoted in Parliament, I am hoping, without any real justification I

:05:34.:05:37.

confess, that today will be three times lucky. A country's commitment

:05:38.:05:42.

to FOI is a clear indicator of the strength of its democracy. For that

:05:43.:05:47.

reason I totally reject what one of Tony Blair 's 's former advisers

:05:48.:05:52.

said to the BBC, but FOI was the worst thing the Labour government

:05:53.:05:57.

did. Tony Blair was far too hard on himself when he said about FOI, you

:05:58.:06:03.

idiot, you naive, foolish, irresponsible nincompoop. There is

:06:04.:06:07.

no description of stupidity, however vivid, that is adequate. I quake at

:06:08.:06:13.

the imbecility of it. Instead, he should have saved those words to

:06:14.:06:17.

describe his decision, on the flimsiest of evidence, to drag the

:06:18.:06:21.

UK to war in Iraq. Tony Blair's views on the alleged is --

:06:22.:06:26.

imbecility of FOI legislation are well-known, as are those of Jack

:06:27.:06:31.

Straw, who use the ministerial FOI vetoed twice, once to block Cabinet

:06:32.:06:36.

minute in the run-up to the Iraq war. He said, we have ended up with

:06:37.:06:41.

the Freedom of Information Act with more access to documents than any

:06:42.:06:47.

comparable jurisdiction. Personally, I consider that something to

:06:48.:06:50.

celebrate, not denigrate. I darken the more I liked interview in the

:06:51.:06:54.

Labour Party on the subject, I hope their review will disregard these

:06:55.:07:00.

dinosaur tendencies and back FOI to the help. Just as strong FOI

:07:01.:07:05.

legislation is a good barometer of democracy, any attempt to diluted

:07:06.:07:10.

represent a threat to it. With the number of MPs falling, hundreds of

:07:11.:07:13.

thousands of voters dropping off the electoral register, many being

:07:14.:07:18.

flushed, the Trade Union Bill being rammed through, all of which her to

:07:19.:07:22.

the opposition parties much more than the Conservatives, the

:07:23.:07:27.

opposition parties' abilities to challenge the Government is being

:07:28.:07:32.

curtailed. We are more dependent on FOI and the FOI Act than ever

:07:33.:07:38.

before. What are the views of the present Government on FOI? They

:07:39.:07:39.

established an independent commission in July to review the

:07:40.:07:47.

FOIA Act. This includes Jack Straw. No need to submit a FOI requested

:07:48.:07:53.

and straight there is nothing independent. It is claimed necessary

:07:54.:08:01.

because the Government needed to revisit FOI to ensure that ministers

:08:02.:08:04.

could speak candidly. He spoke of the worrying tendency to erode

:08:05.:08:08.

protections for that save space. Some of these officials, including

:08:09.:08:12.

Sir Gus O Donnell, as recently as this weekend, and the Cabinet

:08:13.:08:18.

secretary, Sir Jeremy Heywood, dubbed Sir cover-up, made similar

:08:19.:08:26.

claims. Have seen here mandarin and scares them into thinking they can

:08:27.:08:30.

write things down, because they will be exposed to FOI, when there is no

:08:31.:08:35.

such risk, or because it serves the interests of the Chancellor to

:08:36.:08:39.

require them not to? I know with my involvement with the Transparency

:08:40.:08:43.

Act but a chilling effect can be achieved because someone repeats

:08:44.:08:46.

that a law or measure is chilling often enough, so people could tell

:08:47.:08:51.

their actions and self-centred -- self censor, rather than because it

:08:52.:08:57.

is chilling. Sir Jeremy has spoken about the chilling effects of the

:08:58.:09:01.

FOI Act. Now I should simply say that he wants to make the FOI rules

:09:02.:09:05.

clearer without substantial changes. To paraphrase Vince Cable, in the

:09:06.:09:10.

last few weeks we have seen his transformation from Sir cover-up to

:09:11.:09:16.

be so Lancelot Du Lac of FOI. Which incarnation is likely to have the

:09:17.:09:20.

longest shelf life bust up many legal experts point out that

:09:21.:09:23.

information Tribunal 's which he challenges against disclosure, and

:09:24.:09:29.

the statistics confirm this, only allow policy discussions to be

:09:30.:09:33.

revealed in very limited circumstances, or when the arguments

:09:34.:09:37.

for disclosure are overwhelmingly in the public interest. It is worth

:09:38.:09:40.

reminding the House that the justice select committee has conducted a

:09:41.:09:45.

much wider post-legislative scrutiny stating that FOI had contributed to

:09:46.:09:50.

a culture of greater openness across public authorities, particularly at

:09:51.:09:55.

central government level, and it is a significant enhancement to

:09:56.:09:58.

democracy. I'm disappointed at the commission's limited scope. The

:09:59.:10:03.

remit does not cover what types of bodies should be covered by the act,

:10:04.:10:08.

a major failing as we have seen here dignities of companies like chief or

:10:09.:10:14.

essence circle, and charities like Kids Company, a growing proportion

:10:15.:10:17.

of work previously undertaken by the public sector, subject two,

:10:18.:10:21.

undertaken by organisations which are not. How many Medway secure

:10:22.:10:28.

training centres candles could be prevented if FOI applied to private

:10:29.:10:31.

sector companies doing public sector work? We need to act on the

:10:32.:10:35.

recommendation of the Public Accounts Committee from 2014 and

:10:36.:10:38.

include these private contractors. The commission should have looked at

:10:39.:10:42.

bringing the Royal household within the scope of the FOI Act. It is

:10:43.:10:46.

difficult to understand why it should not be in scope. FOI request

:10:47.:10:54.

would be subject to the public interest test. The Royal household

:10:55.:10:58.

is probably the most public of the public authorities. The veto allows

:10:59.:11:04.

ministers, for reasons of political embarrassment, to overturn

:11:05.:11:08.

considered decisions of the Commissioner or a tribunal. It

:11:09.:11:11.

allows them for bad reasons to overturn good decisions. Nor does

:11:12.:11:15.

this commission seek to consult on some of the tricks of the trade used

:11:16.:11:20.

to delay FOI responses, the absence of any time limits on internal FOI

:11:21.:11:26.

reviews. Something the news media Association is pressing for, and I

:11:27.:11:30.

am backing, 40 days seems reasonable. Currently, the absence

:11:31.:11:34.

of time limits provides apartments with a convenient delaying

:11:35.:11:38.

mechanism, and they are already adept at kicking into the long

:11:39.:11:42.

grass. Andrew Lansley's dairies for the period in the run-up to the

:11:43.:11:46.

health and social care rack to being a good case in point. They are of

:11:47.:11:50.

interest because of what they might reveal regarding the number of

:11:51.:11:53.

meetings with private health companies. Their release was fought

:11:54.:11:56.

on the grounds that there might be gaps in his diary which would have

:11:57.:12:02.

to be filled by spurious meetings to ensure he could not be accused of

:12:03.:12:07.

laziness. This is dismissed by the tribunal as incredible, quite

:12:08.:12:11.

rightly. On the other hand, the commission floats the idea of

:12:12.:12:15.

upfront charges for FOI requests. No precise figure is given, but could

:12:16.:12:19.

be at least ?20 in order to recoup the cost of invoicing. The

:12:20.:12:24.

introduction in Ireland of a 50 euros fee in 2003 resulted in a 70%

:12:25.:12:28.

collapse in the number of requests from the public.

:12:29.:12:47.

Other examples include Network Rail. They spent ?7.2 million on car

:12:48.:12:54.

allowances for senior staff last year, bringing the total spend to

:12:55.:13:00.

?35 million. This is a very welcome step, pressed by me and Norman

:13:01.:13:05.

Baker, to bring Network Rail into scope, which came into effect last

:13:06.:13:14.

year. If a fee was in place, for instance investigating all 43 police

:13:15.:13:19.

forces would cost ?863. There are over 260 NHS trusts which would push

:13:20.:13:27.

the costs of SOIing their performance to ?65,000. I am upset

:13:28.:13:32.

by the phrasing of the question, which startss from the perspective

:13:33.:13:38.

of saying that SOI is not a benefit. Parliament should always set an

:13:39.:13:43.

example when it comes to transparency. I support the press

:13:44.:13:48.

Association in their bid to ensure that alcohol. ... The request was

:13:49.:13:58.

rejected on grounds that to do so would breach confident sheltie and

:13:59.:14:02.

the conduct of public affairs but Parliament has a duty to lead on

:14:03.:14:06.

matters of transparency. Parliament, with the exception of matters

:14:07.:14:11.

relating to Parliamentary Echo privilege, should be treated like

:14:12.:14:18.

any other public authority and the subject to those tests. Whether the

:14:19.:14:21.

release of those documents could have been properly assessed. Mr

:14:22.:14:26.

Speaker, our democracy is healthier, more resilient and less vulnerable

:14:27.:14:30.

to ambush with tough and challenging FOIA laws in place. This bill would

:14:31.:14:35.

strengthen FOI to ensure that no one is above scrutiny, whether it is

:14:36.:14:40.

ministers, charity, Parliament or the Royal household. I urge the

:14:41.:14:44.

House to support my bill today. The question is that the right

:14:45.:14:48.

honourable member have leave to bring in the Bill. As many as are of

:14:49.:14:53.

that opinion say aye. The contrary, no. The eyes have it, the eyes have

:14:54.:14:59.

it. Who will bring in the Bill? Mr Ray Mallon, Mr Alistair Carmichael,

:15:00.:15:04.

Mark Durcan, Tim Farron, Mr David Davis, Caroline Lucas, Greg

:15:05.:15:08.

Mulholland, Norman Lamb, Mr Mark Williams and Mr David Winick and

:15:09.:15:10.

myself, Sir. Speaker of information, public

:15:11.:15:40.

interest and transparency bill. Second reading, what day? 11th of

:15:41.:15:46.

March. 11th of March thank you. We come now to the motion in the name

:15:47.:15:52.

of the Leader of the Opposition in relation to the reading of student

:15:53.:15:57.

maintenance rants. I call the shadow Minister, Mr Gordon Marsden. Thank

:15:58.:16:04.

you, Mr Speaker. The government's proposal to scrap maintenance grants

:16:05.:16:06.

for disadvantaged students and to replace it with a loan system is not

:16:07.:16:11.

an isolated one, it is part of a pattern happening across other areas

:16:12.:16:16.

of government and mirrored in changes eight days ago which removed

:16:17.:16:19.

NHS bursaries for nurses and other staff. It has also been foreshadowed

:16:20.:16:24.

by changes the government have made to further education support and

:16:25.:16:29.

protection over the past three or four years. The truth of the matter

:16:30.:16:32.

is that the government's position on this issue, they have ducked and

:16:33.:16:39.

dived to avoid debates on this direction of travel, which also

:16:40.:16:45.

includes freezing the payment threshold for five years, not

:16:46.:16:48.

specifically part of these regulations, although it is referred

:16:49.:16:52.

to in the assessment that comes with them. Also, likely to hit

:16:53.:16:56.

disadvantaged students. We have brought this debates today to hold

:16:57.:17:00.

them to account because this being such a major issue, the government

:17:01.:17:04.

have refused to bring the changes to the floor of the House themselves,

:17:05.:17:08.

preferring to sneak them through delegated legislation where it can

:17:09.:17:12.

be voted on by only a handful of MPs. I will give way. I am grateful

:17:13.:17:20.

to him for giving way. Does he not think it is particularly shameful

:17:21.:17:25.

that this proposal was not contained in the Conservative Party manifesto,

:17:26.:17:30.

and therefore has not just been sneaked in in the House of Commons,

:17:31.:17:35.

but has been sneaked in in the face of the knowledge of the people of

:17:36.:17:40.

this country. My honourable friend makes a very striking point. It is

:17:41.:17:46.

one of only a series of delinquencies in this matter that I

:17:47.:17:51.

want to move on to. The Tories, the government, the Conservative Party

:17:52.:17:54.

has shied away from the light of debate and scrutiny on this issue,

:17:55.:17:58.

preferring instead to use a legislative sleight of hand which

:17:59.:18:01.

has ensured that sweeping changes were made in committee in the hope

:18:02.:18:05.

that no one would notice. All the way through this process there have

:18:06.:18:10.

been -- they have been less than candid, defensive, systematically

:18:11.:18:13.

resisting a path of openness. There was little detail to be had when the

:18:14.:18:16.

Chancellor noted the change in the summer and not much more in the

:18:17.:18:20.

Autumn Statement. It was only when the NUS raised the alarm about the

:18:21.:18:23.

impact of the process and threatened judicial review on the lack of

:18:24.:18:28.

consultation that the failure to publish the equality assessment,

:18:29.:18:35.

which the government has not done, that the assessment was slipped out.

:18:36.:18:42.

My honourable friend, the Business -- the Shadow Business Secretary

:18:43.:18:44.

wrote to the Business Secretary to explain why we needed the full

:18:45.:18:50.

debate. It was reflected in a number of cross-party signatures. His reply

:18:51.:18:54.

largely ignored those issues. The issue of failing to bring it to the

:18:55.:18:58.

floor of the Commons, raised by the shadow leader in December. At that

:18:59.:19:02.

time, the leader in the House -- the Leader of the House intimated should

:19:03.:19:05.

be a debate but that has not subsequently taken place. My

:19:06.:19:10.

honourable friend's question was ducked last Wednesday and colleagues

:19:11.:19:14.

raised this issue again in business questions last week, and I put it in

:19:15.:19:17.

a series of detailed questions to the Minister and the legislation

:19:18.:19:23.

committee, for which I would like to see responses in due course. It is

:19:24.:19:28.

no surprise that the Independent lead today on the way in which this

:19:29.:19:32.

government has been using statutory instruments systematically to force

:19:33.:19:36.

through profound and controversial changes to laws without proper

:19:37.:19:40.

debate and scrutiny. Nor is it surprising that my honourable friend

:19:41.:19:44.

for quality told them that this is an arbitrary rule that massively

:19:45.:19:48.

decreases the power of the Commons to effectively scrutinise

:19:49.:19:55.

government. This equality impact assessment slipped out with relative

:19:56.:19:58.

lack of ceremony at the end of November and as I said last week,

:19:59.:20:01.

this is a document that almost dare not speak its name, not least

:20:02.:20:06.

because the detailed evidence of its impact was tucked away in its

:20:07.:20:12.

central pages, to which I will refer later, what is driving these panic

:20:13.:20:19.

measures, such as the ?1.5 billion raid on grants and the threshold

:20:20.:20:25.

freeze, is the belated recognition that the whole set of financial

:20:26.:20:28.

assumptions about repayments that underpins the freeze increase in --

:20:29.:20:34.

fees increase in 2012 is producing a black hole for them and future

:20:35.:20:38.

taxpayers. I will give way to my honourable friend. I am grateful to

:20:39.:20:44.

my honourable friend. Did a Tory minister not stand at that dispatch

:20:45.:20:50.

box in 2012 over the question of troubling fees and insurers that

:20:51.:20:55.

they would increase a national scholarship programme and

:20:56.:20:58.

maintenance grants to protect those students from the poorest

:20:59.:21:00.

backgrounds? Now they are scrapping both and trying to sneak it through.

:21:01.:21:05.

Isn't that an absolute betrayal? My honourable friend is absolutely

:21:06.:21:10.

right. He has obviously conducted some telepathy with me on that

:21:11.:21:13.

matter because I intend to refer to that later. I will give way to my

:21:14.:21:17.

honourable friend. My honourable friend refers to the impact

:21:18.:21:21.

statement. Does he think it is a scandal in 2015 that the impact

:21:22.:21:25.

statement which the NUS dragged out of the ministry, which confirms that

:21:26.:21:31.

this disproportionately affects black and minority ethnic students,

:21:32.:21:37.

women and the disabled, does not merit a proper vote and debate in

:21:38.:21:41.

this House? I entirely agree with my honourable friend, the distinguished

:21:42.:21:46.

skills minister in this House. And I think the points he makess are valid

:21:47.:21:52.

and ones which I will be coming on to in June course. -- the points he

:21:53.:21:59.

makes. This is not tinkering with existing financial registration. --

:22:00.:22:06.

legislation. I think he is referring to the fact that 45% of the student

:22:07.:22:13.

loan outlook, some ?5 billion, is delinquent in some way or other, and

:22:14.:22:18.

adding 1.6 billion to that, the government is building up a huge

:22:19.:22:23.

unfunded liability on its national accounts. I am grateful to my

:22:24.:22:26.

honourable friend, who has great experience in these matters. Indeed,

:22:27.:22:30.

not just the Institute for Fiscal Studies but other organisations have

:22:31.:22:35.

commented on this matter. I will give way briefly. Wonderful to hear

:22:36.:22:39.

the Labour Party talking about unfunded liabilities. Can I ask him,

:22:40.:22:43.

he mentioned the ?1.5 billion cost of this. The money that we will be

:22:44.:22:48.

saving. Can he confirmed, is at his party's policy to reverse this and

:22:49.:22:52.

if so, from where would they get the money? I am delighted that the

:22:53.:22:58.

honourable member is so looking forward to the arrival of a Labour

:22:59.:23:02.

government that he is already asking asked detailed questions on this

:23:03.:23:06.

matter. I would remind him that today is a day for governments to be

:23:07.:23:12.

held to account for their feelings, rather than us. -- their feelings. I

:23:13.:23:17.

must try to make progress. I will take more interventions later. These

:23:18.:23:28.

measures typical of the ideology driven and evidence light approach

:23:29.:23:32.

of this government. Every four years, a major departure of a

:23:33.:23:38.

policy. Only four years after they hailed the advantages to the

:23:39.:23:42.

disadvantaged, and statistics from the House of Commons library tell me

:23:43.:23:47.

that these will affect 500,000 of England's most disadvantaged

:23:48.:23:50.

students, amounting to a Domesday book listing the number of students

:23:51.:23:54.

who will lose grants under the new rules. Universities across England

:23:55.:23:59.

will be affected. Old and new. As well as other institutions. Further

:24:00.:24:03.

education colleges will be affected, because they make an increasingly

:24:04.:24:14.

valuable contribution, 10% and rising, and a disproportionate

:24:15.:24:20.

number of their students will be affected. I am grateful to my

:24:21.:24:23.

honourable friend and I commend him for bringing this debate to the

:24:24.:24:26.

House of Commons so that we can have a vote on this important issue. He

:24:27.:24:31.

talks about the impact on universities and colleges. He might

:24:32.:24:36.

have seen the information that has been released in December of last

:24:37.:24:42.

year, that shows that still today, twice as many young people from

:24:43.:24:49.

advantaged backgrounds go on to university than from disadvantaged

:24:50.:24:54.

backgrounds. How does he think that removing ?3500 worth of grants a

:24:55.:24:57.

year is going to assist social mobility? We will have something

:24:58.:25:03.

more to say about social mobility later on. But the reality of the

:25:04.:25:09.

matter is that it does not, and the attitude of the government... I will

:25:10.:25:14.

not give way, I will not give way. I have already indicated that there

:25:15.:25:18.

are a large number of people who wish to speak and I need to give

:25:19.:25:23.

them a chance to do so. I have already indicated I will give way.

:25:24.:25:30.

Thank you, Mr Speaker. Would my honourable friend agree with me that

:25:31.:25:34.

in the last Parliament, this government abolished the DNA for 16

:25:35.:25:41.

to 18-year-olds going into further education. Now they have abolished

:25:42.:25:47.

the grants for higher education. Yet they don't tax cuts for millionaires

:25:48.:25:50.

in the last Parliament. Does it not show that this Tory government is

:25:51.:25:54.

not concerned about the poor and disadvantaged in this country. Look

:25:55.:25:59.

at what they are doing with housing, university credit, disability and

:26:00.:26:02.

education. They just don't care. My honourable friend has referred to

:26:03.:26:09.

the abolition of the EN a grand, and that is not something for today but

:26:10.:26:15.

I think that is important. -- EMA grant. It points to the problems

:26:16.:26:25.

with these things, affecting further education colleges. It is a tumult

:26:26.:26:30.

of affected if the result is that people do not apply to those

:26:31.:26:33.

colleges in the future. That is why the Association of colleges said in

:26:34.:26:37.

response that they have real concerns about the proposed changes.

:26:38.:26:41.

Many of the students may never earn enough to pay back the money and the

:26:42.:26:45.

policy does appear to penalise the poorest. I have already indicated

:26:46.:26:50.

that I will not give way at this moment, I will give way in a little

:26:51.:26:55.

while. The expansion of higher education opportunities and further

:26:56.:27:00.

education colleges after 1997 was one of the most significant advances

:27:01.:27:04.

under the Labour government in this area. And it was a crucial part in

:27:05.:27:10.

beginning to address the lack of balance for higher education in the

:27:11.:27:14.

English regions outside of the areas of clusters of long established

:27:15.:27:19.

universities. It was part of a joined up strategy to embed higher

:27:20.:27:24.

education and skills in our local economies and through the regional

:27:25.:27:26.

development agencies at that time. In my own area of Blackpool, our

:27:27.:27:33.

college gained excellent new higher education blocks in that period.

:27:34.:27:39.

Today, over 2800 students are in that position of doing education

:27:40.:27:46.

there. We know in further education that many of the students come

:27:47.:27:51.

precisely from these nontraditional backgrounds for participation in

:27:52.:27:52.

higher education. He is deploying the same argument

:27:53.:28:04.

that was used against the introduction of tuition fees, which

:28:05.:28:08.

was by the previous Labour government and developed by the

:28:09.:28:14.

coalition. Yet what we have seen is an increase, and increase in the

:28:15.:28:17.

number of students from disadvantaged backgrounds going to

:28:18.:28:20.

university. His argument does not stack up! Perhaps if the honourable

:28:21.:28:27.

gentleman will listen as I speak further about the way in which these

:28:28.:28:31.

things have changed he will understand that the issue of what

:28:32.:28:39.

was introduced in 2012, and, I would say, apologies, but the explanations

:28:40.:28:43.

that his then come and gave for tripling Jewish and fees were based

:28:44.:28:49.

on a series of quid pro quos. They have all now been abandoned by this

:28:50.:28:54.

government. So the same pattern that I have talked about, incidentally,

:28:55.:28:59.

is seen in the numbers doing higher education in many of the so-called

:29:00.:29:03.

post-92 universities receiving a maintenance grant. And that is why

:29:04.:29:09.

in their briefing for debate today, the organisation Million Plus which

:29:10.:29:13.

has a significant number of those universities has expressed alarm.

:29:14.:29:17.

They say that by the jewel of nothing more than hassled incomes,

:29:18.:29:22.

some students will now be saddled with debts far in excess of their

:29:23.:29:31.

from students and repaying in five years will exacerbate this problem

:29:32.:29:34.

and it graduates the hardest. My former colleague, now vice

:29:35.:29:40.

Chancellor of the University and a former higher education minister has

:29:41.:29:45.

made those points in an excellent piece in Politics Home Today. Very

:29:46.:29:53.

briefly... Mine is one of the poorest constituencies in England

:29:54.:29:56.

yet rich in talent and maintenance grants mean a lot to students who

:29:57.:30:02.

want to get on. 42% depend on them. Does the honourable member agree

:30:03.:30:06.

with me that the government is both breaking a promise but also dashing

:30:07.:30:10.

the hopes and dreams of a generation of strivers? I absolutely agree with

:30:11.:30:18.

what might honourable friend says. He comes and speaks from that

:30:19.:30:21.

established part of the West Midlands which is in the process of

:30:22.:30:28.

trying to gain control over areas of activity in terms of their local

:30:29.:30:30.

economies. And what the government is doing the people in Birmingham

:30:31.:30:36.

and elsewhere is utterly confounding their own devolution prospects. I

:30:37.:30:43.

will not give way at this stage, I might do so later. Please. We know

:30:44.:30:48.

now, this is thanks to a question that I put to the honourable member,

:30:49.:30:52.

the universities minister, to establish the extent of the issue,

:30:53.:30:56.

how many people will be directly affected by the middle of the

:30:57.:31:03.

maintenance grant? Statistics show that 33,700 English applicants were

:31:04.:31:07.

awarded maintenance grants for higher education courses with

:31:08.:31:09.

further education colleges. Within that figure, we have a roll call of

:31:10.:31:15.

the English regions where it is not just the individuals but the local

:31:16.:31:19.

economies and the growth of the skills there that have benefited

:31:20.:31:22.

from this expansion of higher education and further education.

:31:23.:31:26.

From those same student loan companies coming here are some

:31:27.:31:30.

statistics for those on maintenance grants. In the north-west, Blackburn

:31:31.:31:37.

College has 1842, in the north-east, Newcastle College group, 1169, in

:31:38.:31:43.

south-west and Cornwall, Cornwall College, 931, and so the list goes

:31:44.:31:50.

on. And on top of that, and a crucial subset of those statistics

:31:51.:31:53.

is the numbers in those very areas where I've just referred to Mike

:31:54.:31:59.

honourable friend from the Ming, the government is currently encouraging

:32:00.:32:01.

combined authorities to take up their devolution offers. -- from

:32:02.:32:07.

Birmingham. And therefore to have control in or take a role in higher

:32:08.:32:12.

skills initiatives. Greater Manchester, 410 on maintenance

:32:13.:32:17.

grants at Stockport College. Merseyside, 542 at the city of

:32:18.:32:22.

Liverpool College. And the Institute of performing arts. Leeds, 1604

:32:23.:32:28.

across the colleges of music and art. And in London, with London's

:32:29.:32:34.

huge sector catering and as many of the groups identified in the

:32:35.:32:37.

qualities assessment, as my friend Mike the Member for Tottenham that,

:32:38.:32:42.

at a time of pressure already from area reviews, and cuts, this new

:32:43.:32:48.

proposal could be toxic. If the effect of these changes introduced

:32:49.:32:53.

without consultation is too blunt Catskills and Parliament, this

:32:54.:32:57.

government will be cutting off at the knees the very strategies for

:32:58.:33:03.

English devolution for skills and social mobility that they claim to

:33:04.:33:09.

be promoting. I will give way to my honourable friend. I thank my

:33:10.:33:13.

honourable friend for giving way. Last week the Prime Minister said

:33:14.:33:17.

his government's mission was to look every child in the eye and say, your

:33:18.:33:21.

dreams are our dreams, we will support you with everything we've

:33:22.:33:25.

got. Does Mike honourable friend agreed that scrapping grants, to

:33:26.:33:32.

more than 5000 young people in Tower Hamlets, is a cap on aspiration and

:33:33.:33:39.

stinks of hypocrisy? I certainly agree about the potential threat to

:33:40.:33:45.

her constituents. It underlines what I have said in the context of

:33:46.:33:51.

London. No, I will not give way on that point, until I have finished

:33:52.:33:57.

with this one. As to the point about hypocrisy, it is not for me to

:33:58.:34:01.

judge, I would recall that fine proverb that fine words but no

:34:02.:34:07.

parsnips! Who wished to intervene? Social mobility, will he welcomed

:34:08.:34:10.

the fact that more people from disadvantaged backgrounds are

:34:11.:34:14.

accessing higher education, up from when Labour were in power, 13.6%, to

:34:15.:34:20.

this or, more than 18%. Does he welcomed that? Blank of course I do.

:34:21.:34:29.

The point I am trying to establish, if the honourable gentleman and his

:34:30.:34:32.

colleagues would take the point, I'm trying to help them. These fine

:34:33.:34:36.

words about social mobility and increase and the rest of it will go

:34:37.:34:40.

in the opposite direction if they do not reconsider this measure. There

:34:41.:34:48.

are a great number of people who want to speak, I've taken a number

:34:49.:34:51.

of interventions already and I really must progress. I'm grateful

:34:52.:34:57.

to the honourable gentleman. So the House is aware, on present trends

:34:58.:35:01.

they will only be one hour in total for backbench speeches and 18 people

:35:02.:35:06.

want to speak. So I am underlining the potency of the point that the

:35:07.:35:09.

honourable gentleman has just made. Gordon Marsden. Mr Speaker. There is

:35:10.:35:16.

this factor, nudge away from progress, nudge away from groups and

:35:17.:35:23.

communities who are dead others, traditionally. Asking people at

:35:24.:35:29.

further education colleges, to take on up to ?50,000 worth of debt, in

:35:30.:35:35.

areas like the north-east, which in some areas could be the price of a

:35:36.:35:40.

small house or flat, is what would concern colleges like new College

:35:41.:35:44.

Durham, whose principal has said that nudge can work both ways,

:35:45.:35:48.

especially for people who have signed up for foundation courses and

:35:49.:35:51.

are considering going for honours. The more complex you make the

:35:52.:35:55.

funding process, the more it can seem a barrier. These concerns I

:35:56.:36:00.

know have been echoed by others recently. But it is the individual

:36:01.:36:04.

life chances that maybe blighted or disrupted by these changes that

:36:05.:36:08.

should weigh heavily on all of us. This is why NUS and their student

:36:09.:36:13.

bodies have been so passionate in campaigning against this change. And

:36:14.:36:17.

for me, all those individual cases and further education are summed up

:36:18.:36:21.

by the e-mail I got yesterday from a student in Blackpool, who writes to

:36:22.:36:25.

me as follows. Thank you for defending the students who will be

:36:26.:36:29.

affected by the loss of grants. I am from Blackpool, in the second year

:36:30.:36:34.

of my degree, and I am a married mature student with two children. I

:36:35.:36:38.

had illness as a child which is why I'm doing this in my late 30s. A

:36:39.:36:42.

complete U-turn by the government who said education shouldn't just be

:36:43.:36:47.

for the privileged and shouldn't exclude the poor has now done

:36:48.:36:51.

exactly that. So that is what my constituent says. These changes will

:36:52.:36:57.

also affect significant numbers of students in traditional university

:36:58.:37:03.

sector. 14,000 at Manchester, over 8000 at the University of matches

:37:04.:37:09.

do, almost 11,000 at Nottingham Trent, 3738 at College London. A

:37:10.:37:15.

potential list of lost opportunities, as I have said.

:37:16.:37:18.

Turning to the impact of the regulations themselves, we can only

:37:19.:37:23.

speculate on what impact they will have on the future cohorts of people

:37:24.:37:28.

who come in. But apart from other work done, the National education

:37:29.:37:34.

and opportunities network or the University and College union are

:37:35.:37:36.

currently undertaking research with more than 2000 final year students

:37:37.:37:44.

to look at how cost influences the higher education choices they make.

:37:45.:37:47.

The interim findings from that research show that more than half

:37:48.:37:52.

the students who are deciding not to go into higher education are taking

:37:53.:37:57.

that decision because of the lack of direct financial maintenance grant

:37:58.:37:59.

support which they had envisaged the year ahead. -- for the year ahead.

:38:00.:38:07.

The quality assessment states that as an aggregate level there is

:38:08.:38:10.

currently no evidence that the 2012 reforms which saw an increase in

:38:11.:38:17.

higher education fees or debt levels has had a significant impact in

:38:18.:38:21.

deterring young students from lower backgrounds. But I think that the

:38:22.:38:28.

operative word is that there is currently no evidence. Because that

:38:29.:38:32.

is now debatable. Because the safety net of maintenance grants which was

:38:33.:38:36.

introduced in 2012 with the tripling of the fees is now being removed.

:38:37.:38:41.

This is why the shadow Secretary of State wrote in her letter against

:38:42.:38:44.

these regulations, we are concerned that this change will not improve

:38:45.:38:47.

government finances in the long term. This echoes the view of the

:38:48.:38:53.

Institute of fiscal. The replacement of maintenance grants by loans in

:38:54.:38:58.

the system will raise debt for the poorest students and do little to

:38:59.:39:01.

improve government finances in the long run. The ISF states that in the

:39:02.:39:09.

short-term government borrowing will drop by ?2 million ago because

:39:10.:39:12.

current spending on grounds counts towards borrowing while current

:39:13.:39:16.

spending on loans does not. In the long run savings could well be less

:39:17.:39:19.

than this. And the amount of money lent to students will rise by about

:39:20.:39:27.

?2.3 billion for each cohort. But the IFS say only around one quarter

:39:28.:39:30.

of those additional loans are likely to be paid. The net effect is

:39:31.:39:35.

therefore to reduce government borrowing by ?270 million by cohort

:39:36.:39:42.

in the long run, but 80% decline in the government's estimated

:39:43.:39:45.

contribution to higher education. I want to quote the IFS have said. In

:39:46.:39:51.

a fair and balanced way, they say that students from households with

:39:52.:39:56.

pre-tax incomes of up to two and ?5,000, those currently eligible for

:39:57.:39:59.

maintenance grants, will have some more cash in pocket. Yet they will

:40:00.:40:09.

also graduate with 12 point ?5,000 -- ?12,000 moderate. So students

:40:10.:40:12.

from poorest backgrounds are likely to leave university owing much more

:40:13.:40:16.

to the government than their better of peers. It also states that the

:40:17.:40:20.

poorest 40% of students at university in England will now

:40:21.:40:25.

graduate with debts of up to ?53,000 from a three-year course, rather

:40:26.:40:31.

than at 240,500, resulting from the placement of maintenance grants. As

:40:32.:40:35.

I have already said, when the government tripled tuition fees in

:40:36.:40:39.

2012 they tried to sweeten the pill by talking up the centrality of the

:40:40.:40:44.

maintenance grant to ensure that the most disadvantaged could still

:40:45.:40:47.

access higher education. They promised three things. National

:40:48.:40:49.

scholarship programme, the maintenance grants for the

:40:50.:40:54.

disadvantaged programme, and earnings related threshold that

:40:55.:40:59.

would be upgraded with inflation. The then Minister of universities,

:41:00.:41:03.

David Willetts, said, the increase in maintenance grants to students

:41:04.:41:07.

from households with the lowest incomes, the National Scottish

:41:08.:41:10.

programme, additional fair access requirements should ensure the

:41:11.:41:16.

reforms do not affect individuals from lower socioeconomic backgrounds

:41:17.:41:20.

disproportionately. That is what the Minister's predecessor in a

:41:21.:41:25.

Conservative led government said in 2011-2012. But the regulations that

:41:26.:41:29.

the government passed last week will disadvantage the very same group of

:41:30.:41:31.

students that the government promised to protect. David Willetts

:41:32.:41:37.

previously lauded these measures as a quid pro quo the troubling of

:41:38.:41:43.

tuition fees, saying, they help to encourage people from poorer

:41:44.:41:46.

backgrounds to go to university. Because of the higher education

:41:47.:41:50.

maintenance grant, because of a higher repayment threshold. Now all

:41:51.:41:54.

three elements of those promises have been broken, since the

:41:55.:42:00.

election, by this government. The Minister's colleagues, now Lord

:42:01.:42:04.

Willets, must be revolving in his ermine and the way his promises have

:42:05.:42:08.

been so lightly regarded by this government. They set great store by

:42:09.:42:14.

the principle of note, actions persuading people to change their

:42:15.:42:16.

behaviour is for the better. I reminded the Minister last week and

:42:17.:42:20.

I do so again that it's possible to people away from desirable outcomes,

:42:21.:42:25.

rather than towards them. And a new study shows that more than half the

:42:26.:42:30.

applicants said that they had felt that off by the cost of university.

:42:31.:42:36.

That is backed up by what the sudden Trust has said. Shifting grants to

:42:37.:42:40.

loans may move them off the balance sheet, but it and could also

:42:41.:42:45.

determining low and middle-income students and to the balance against

:42:46.:42:49.

their going to university. Since grounds were reintroduced there have

:42:50.:42:52.

been significant improvements and we welcome that. -- since grants were

:42:53.:42:57.

reduced. Yet they will be put at risk by today's budget plans.

:42:58.:43:02.

Research from the NUS published last week shows parents are concerned

:43:03.:43:05.

that the government 's plans to scrap the maintenance grant will

:43:06.:43:08.

discourage their children from going to university. Two fifths of those

:43:09.:43:16.

believe that to be the case. And the range of the groups affected by

:43:17.:43:19.

these changes is daunting. The assessment concedes that some

:43:20.:43:29.

students in particular will be worse off, as for older learners, mature

:43:30.:43:33.

students will be disproportionately impacted by the policy proposals to

:43:34.:43:37.

move the full grant and replace it with an additional loan as well as

:43:38.:43:42.

the freezing of targeted grants. The government has also conceded in this

:43:43.:43:43.

assessment that disabled people will be

:43:44.:43:56.

disproportionately affected by the decision not protect the real Thames

:43:57.:43:58.

Valley of disabled students allowances. The assessment also

:43:59.:44:00.

spells out the potential for discrimination over religious

:44:01.:44:01.

belief, stating that evidence suggests that there are groups of

:44:02.:44:06.

Muslim students whose beliefs will prevent them from taking out such a

:44:07.:44:11.

loan and finally women are to be affected disproportionately. The

:44:12.:44:13.

assessment says that female students will be particularly affected by the

:44:14.:44:19.

loss of childcare grants, and parental allowances, given their

:44:20.:44:22.

significant overrepresentation in this population. Further to this,

:44:23.:44:29.

the scrapping of 24 plus loans in further education is relevant to the

:44:30.:44:32.

case today, because it indicates what has happened in previous

:44:33.:44:36.

circumstances where the government has gone down this road. The

:44:37.:44:40.

Minister knows that the government released figures in October 20 15th

:44:41.:44:44.

which showed clear evidence of the deterrent impact on learners that I

:44:45.:44:48.

and others want about when these loans were introduced as

:44:49.:44:52.

replacements for grants in January 20 13. -- we warned about them. The

:44:53.:44:59.

figures show that in 2014-15 only ?149 million of the 390 's and

:45:00.:45:02.

million pounds allocated to the process had been taken up. No wonder

:45:03.:45:08.

people in the further education community have lamented the lost

:45:09.:45:12.

opportunity of ?250 million that could have helped some of our and

:45:13.:45:16.

most disadvantaged learners. And now the very group of people who

:45:17.:45:24.

benefited from the concessions given in 2013 by the honourable

:45:25.:45:26.

predecessor of the Minister, the Member for the deep things, that

:45:27.:45:32.

those who took that access to higher education courses would then have

:45:33.:45:35.

the outstanding amount written off and that access course alone now

:45:36.:45:37.

face another knock-back from this. These details should give the

:45:38.:45:49.

Government pours the thought. It also appears the Government is yet

:45:50.:45:53.

to produce any up-to-date estimate of the impact that the shift from

:45:54.:45:57.

grants to loans will have on resource accounting and budgeting,

:45:58.:46:00.

which calculates the cost of the Government or the higher education

:46:01.:46:05.

funding system based on how much students are expected ultimately to

:46:06.:46:09.

repay. What I would like to add the Minister and his colleagues today,

:46:10.:46:13.

having heard the evidence that we have presented so far and comments

:46:14.:46:16.

from around the floor, if they have been so confident about these

:46:17.:46:19.

policies, why did they not bring them to the floor of the House? More

:46:20.:46:26.

to the point, why did they not consult experts and organisations,

:46:27.:46:30.

why did they not commission research from the reputable policy bodies?

:46:31.:46:34.

Last month with a number of other MPs I sat in the corridor of this

:46:35.:46:37.

place listening to hundreds of students who had come to lobby us.

:46:38.:46:42.

Their message was a consistent one, scrapping maintenance grants will

:46:43.:46:46.

leave poor people struggling to go to university. People here today

:46:47.:46:50.

have talked about consequences, people talk about their own

:46:51.:46:54.

experiences. I was a tutor for the open University the 20 years and

:46:55.:46:58.

know the experience of many students who I taught was that they had been

:46:59.:47:02.

put off higher education at an earlier age by the costs. Things do

:47:03.:47:10.

not alter just because we are in the digital world of the 21st-century.

:47:11.:47:17.

This cannot be divorced from the precarious position that so many of

:47:18.:47:19.

those who studied part-time at present face statistics have shown

:47:20.:47:28.

the number of first year part-time student in 2014 is down 6% on

:47:29.:47:41.

previous years. The number of part-time higher education students

:47:42.:47:43.

and the Conservatives came into office has fallen by nearly 40%. No

:47:44.:47:49.

wonder the NUS has shown exasperation in this matter, and of

:47:50.:47:53.

course related it to the trebling of student fees since 2012 for England

:47:54.:48:02.

and English students, and no wonder also that the president of

:48:03.:48:05.

universities UK and the Vice Chancellor of the University of cant

:48:06.:48:09.

said the decline of part-time numbers was a serious cause for

:48:10.:48:11.

concern. In the meantime, the nudge factors

:48:12.:48:30.

are very strong against it, the open University has expressed its

:48:31.:48:33.

alarming commenting on the Minister's higher education green

:48:34.:48:40.

paper that the flexible learning is that the heart of the development.

:48:41.:48:44.

Isn't this why we need a proper discussion, and aren't they were

:48:45.:48:46.

reasons why, and I invite the Minister to say so in his response,

:48:47.:48:52.

we need to have a commitment to the further education bill being brought

:48:53.:48:57.

to the House? There is a lack of balance and this issue is not going

:48:58.:49:03.

to go away. It is not the prize in connection have been made between

:49:04.:49:06.

the specific ways this Government has tried to dodge scrutiny in this

:49:07.:49:09.

matter. No wonder the Minister appeared in at ease in committee.

:49:10.:49:13.

But perhaps the blame lies elsewhere. In the article, it says

:49:14.:49:21.

it is the Chancellor who tried to smuggle through his tax credit

:49:22.:49:24.

changes and we almost what happened to them. It is the Treasury that

:49:25.:49:29.

mismanaged the process. The Chancellor is promoting himself as

:49:30.:49:34.

the Government's Master builder. He preens himself as he boast about the

:49:35.:49:38.

march of the makers and the Government under his watch fixing

:49:39.:49:41.

the roof while the sun is shining. But the truth is the Chancellor is a

:49:42.:49:47.

manual have to read the small print with. This is a man who has

:49:48.:49:53.

consistently mixed target and as far as building a future for Britain's

:49:54.:49:58.

learners is concerned, he is Mr dodgy, whose actions are not likely

:49:59.:50:01.

to get him a certificate from the Confederation of Master builders.

:50:02.:50:06.

When the sun is shining, he has dislodged slates on the way down and

:50:07.:50:11.

disguised cuts in adult skills and efficiencies as his new officials

:50:12.:50:15.

call them. He is pushing those students precisely off the ladder of

:50:16.:50:20.

social mobility. It is time for him to get real. In the real world, when

:50:21.:50:26.

the inactivity of demand eventually snaps and stretching the envelope

:50:27.:50:29.

will finally break it, the direction of travel by threatening to deliver

:50:30.:50:35.

not a northern powerhouse but a northern poorhouse and underlining

:50:36.:50:39.

his regional strategy, we want no part of this narrative of failure,

:50:40.:50:44.

and nor should this House. That is why we calling this afternoon to

:50:45.:50:47.

make ministers think again, to support this notion and to an old

:50:48.:50:54.

this misguided regulation that this Government has tried to hide away.

:50:55.:50:59.

The question is as on the order paper. Before I call the Minister of

:51:00.:51:03.

State for universities and science, for whom the House will want to hear

:51:04.:51:09.

and will need to tweak the matters in property tell, I gently expressed

:51:10.:51:14.

the hope that the combined affect of the intellectual powerhouses on the

:51:15.:51:18.

two frontbenchers and their enthusiasm for communication will

:51:19.:51:22.

not succeed in crowding out backbenchers. We have also to hear

:51:23.:51:27.

from other distinguished intellects later on in summing up the debate

:51:28.:51:31.

and I hope that the product of their grey cells will be meeting and it

:51:32.:51:37.

will not be too big -- will be meaty. Minister. I welcome the

:51:38.:51:43.

opportunity to explain why it would be a mistake to vote for the

:51:44.:51:49.

opposition most sins -- motions which attempted to annul the

:51:50.:51:52.

committee last Thursday. The instrument delivers the Government's

:51:53.:51:56.

policy to offer increased financial support the living costs for new in

:51:57.:52:02.

the 16th-17 academic year in the form of loans rather than grants. It

:52:03.:52:08.

is part of a plan to ensure our world-class higher education sector

:52:09.:52:09.

remained sustainably financed and open to more students from all

:52:10.:52:13.

backgrounds. This Government is extending the benefits of higher

:52:14.:52:16.

education to more people than ever before. We have lifted the

:52:17.:52:20.

artificial cap on student numbers, and I went record numbers to secure

:52:21.:52:25.

places last year. With a higher education sector that is not

:52:26.:52:31.

sustainable funded -- but a higher education sector that is not

:52:32.:52:34.

sustainable funded cannot deliver what students expect. In the context

:52:35.:52:38.

of fiscal restraint, ensuring we have a sustainable model that our

:52:39.:52:43.

higher education system is crucial. In this respect, this measure builds

:52:44.:52:47.

on successful reforms since 2010 which delivered a higher education

:52:48.:52:52.

system that delivers full students and taxpayers. The OECD has

:52:53.:52:56.

commended these reforms for the sensible balance they strike between

:52:57.:53:00.

the interests of taxpayers and students and its directory of higher

:53:01.:53:04.

education has said England is one of the very few countries that has

:53:05.:53:09.

figured out a sustainable approach to higher education financing.

:53:10.:53:12.

Recently on a trip to and on he added, England has made a wise

:53:13.:53:15.

choice. It works for individuals, it works for Government. I am grateful

:53:16.:53:22.

to him. If it is so well and good, why wasn't it in his manifesto? I am

:53:23.:53:27.

grateful to the honourable member for raising that point. If you read

:53:28.:53:32.

page 35 of the Conservative Party manifesto he will see a clear

:53:33.:53:37.

commitment to continuing the funding reforms I have just described, and

:53:38.:53:43.

ensuring a fair balance between the interests of taxpayers and students.

:53:44.:53:47.

There are also many other references in the Conservative manifesto to the

:53:48.:53:52.

need to achieve budget deficit savings. Mr Speaker, may I start by

:53:53.:53:58.

beginning to address the questions about the scrutiny of the

:53:59.:54:01.

regulations, points raised by the honourable member opposite? These

:54:02.:54:05.

were not sneaked in, as he suggested. The policy was first

:54:06.:54:10.

announced in principle at the summer 15 budget nearly six months ago. It

:54:11.:54:15.

was in fact included in the Chancellor's summer budget speech,

:54:16.:54:18.

one of the most closely scrutinised if events in the Parliamentary

:54:19.:54:23.

calendar. The decision finally to proceed was made as part of the

:54:24.:54:28.

Spending Review in November 2015 and the instrument was laid before the

:54:29.:54:31.

House on December the 2nd. A comprehensive 80 page equity and

:54:32.:54:37.

equality analysis was published the next day in line with an earlier

:54:38.:54:40.

commitment and made voluntarily to this House. I will say more about

:54:41.:54:45.

this later. The regulations were made under power was granted to the

:54:46.:54:50.

Secretary of State either previous Labour Government under the teaching

:54:51.:54:55.

and higher education act 1998, rather than using some obscure and

:54:56.:54:59.

arcane procedure as honourable members, let me finish my point,

:55:00.:55:05.

have suggested. We are following the very Parliamentary processes which

:55:06.:55:07.

the last Labour Government created for this purpose. Labour asked for a

:55:08.:55:13.

debate on the regulations on December the 9th. The Government

:55:14.:55:16.

tabled a motion which appeared on the order paper on January the 5th

:55:17.:55:23.

referring these regulations do a delegation committee. Labour did not

:55:24.:55:28.

object. The regulations went to the delegated Legislation committee on

:55:29.:55:33.

January 14. Put simply, the process were put in place by Labour when

:55:34.:55:37.

they were lasting Government, and they didn't object to it on January

:55:38.:55:41.

the 5th, when they had the chance. I now welcome the chance very much to

:55:42.:55:45.

debate the issue further this afternoon on this opposition Day

:55:46.:55:49.

debate, knowing the other place will also get a chance to consider the

:55:50.:55:55.

instrument following the motion tabled on January 30. I thank him

:55:56.:56:00.

for giving great. I have been contacted by a large number of

:56:01.:56:06.

people including students from Gosford Academy, Newcastle and

:56:07.:56:08.

Cumbria universities, and they would like to know from the Minister when

:56:09.:56:12.

they will have the opportunity to feed into the public consultation on

:56:13.:56:17.

this issue? This is a matter which the House has debated in the

:56:18.:56:23.

delegated Legislation committee. There was a thorough 80 page

:56:24.:56:29.

analysis, the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills

:56:30.:56:31.

maintains an ongoing regular dialogue with all stakeholders on

:56:32.:56:34.

matters relating to higher education. We welcome the scrutiny

:56:35.:56:41.

because this Government is rightly proud of its record on higher

:56:42.:56:44.

education. Since 2010 we have delivered bold reform of higher

:56:45.:56:52.

education putting in place a funding model that has ensured our

:56:53.:56:59.

risen in real terms, it has able

:57:00.:57:08.

to 26 billion in 2014 and is forecast to rise by 2017-18. Let's

:57:09.:57:14.

not forget the difficult fiscal circumstances in which this was

:57:15.:57:19.

achieved, against the background of a record deficit, providing this

:57:20.:57:22.

financial security could only be achieved by asking students to meet

:57:23.:57:25.

a greater part of their education paid not upfront but out of their

:57:26.:57:29.

future earnings. This recognised the principle that if you benefit from

:57:30.:57:33.

higher education and secure higher lifetime earnings and people who do

:57:34.:57:38.

not go to university, you should contribute to the cost of your

:57:39.:57:42.

education. I thank the Minister forgiving way. He is aware that

:57:43.:57:46.

students from disadvantaged backgrounds are less likely to go to

:57:47.:57:51.

university already. Those from more advantageous backgrounds to .5 times

:57:52.:57:55.

more likely. This change will make it much worse. Can he please face up

:57:56.:58:00.

to the facts and do something to to this question. If the Government was

:58:01.:58:05.

serious about social mobility these cuts would not be made and he should

:58:06.:58:07.

be honest about that. This government is committed to

:58:08.:58:15.

social mobility and we are delighted we have more students now going into

:58:16.:58:20.

higher education than ever before at a record level of 18.5%. You are now

:58:21.:58:27.

36% more likely to go to university if you are from a disadvantaged

:58:28.:58:30.

background today than you were when we took office in 2010. The Prime

:58:31.:58:35.

Minister has committed to doubling the proportion of students from

:58:36.:58:41.

disadvantaged pup backgrounds by 2020 and we are doing everything in

:58:42.:58:45.

our power to ensure that happens. It is this sustainable model of funding

:58:46.:58:51.

that has allowed us to have more people benefit. Removing the cap on

:58:52.:58:57.

student numbers has allowed more people to benefit from higher

:58:58.:59:00.

education than ever before and now almost 50% of young people are

:59:01.:59:07.

likely to undertake some form of higher education in their lifetime.

:59:08.:59:16.

Brighton and Hove City Council has set up the fairness commission to

:59:17.:59:19.

ensure it delivers fairness and social mobility in its policy

:59:20.:59:25.

making. With 3700 students out of 10,000 at Sussex University on

:59:26.:59:32.

maintenance grants, has at their job to lawful lot harder because of your

:59:33.:59:39.

policy? -- hasn't their job. What the honourable member can tell his

:59:40.:59:45.

constituents is that higher education remains a transformation

:59:46.:59:50.

experience. They are likely to go on to earn a lot more over their

:59:51.:00:02.

lifetime than if they don't. We must acknowledge the success of our

:00:03.:00:07.

reforms, as a consequence, we have found today a higher education

:00:08.:00:12.

system with record numbers going to university, record numbers of people

:00:13.:00:15.

from disadvantaged backgrounds going to university, the highest rates of

:00:16.:00:22.

BME participation and more women are displayed than ever before. This all

:00:23.:00:33.

stems from a clear manifesto commitment. What I would like to say

:00:34.:00:42.

to members opposite is that those of them who oppose this policy today

:00:43.:00:46.

and want to introduce more direct taxpayer support us think about

:00:47.:00:51.

whether they would also have to reintroduce the student number

:00:52.:00:55.

controls we abolished and prevent thousands of young people from

:00:56.:00:57.

attending university. Does the honourable member wished to

:00:58.:01:02.

reintroduced student number controls? Applications to the most

:01:03.:01:09.

selective universities from students from lower income has fallen since

:01:10.:01:17.

2010. What impact will this policy have on that number dropping

:01:18.:01:22.

further? We want people from disadvantaged backgrounds to go to

:01:23.:01:26.

the very best universities in this country. We want to see those

:01:27.:01:29.

numbers increase which is why we have in our guidance letters to the

:01:30.:01:33.

director of the office for spare access, asked him to pay particular

:01:34.:01:37.

attention to institutions that are not pulling their weight in terms of

:01:38.:01:42.

getting people in from disadvantaged backgrounds. We will continue that

:01:43.:01:51.

in our next letter. In terms of painful university, does the

:01:52.:01:54.

Minister agree that it is difficult for me to explain to people in my

:01:55.:02:04.

constituency, that the alternative is for them to pay more in their

:02:05.:02:11.

taxes? That is precisely the point. It is unfair on people who do not go

:02:12.:02:16.

to university to pay for education of those who go on in their

:02:17.:02:19.

lifetimes to earn a considerable youth more than they will

:02:20.:02:24.

themselves, on average men who go to university will earn ?170,000 more

:02:25.:02:28.

in their working life time than someone with two available to does

:02:29.:02:35.

not go to university. It is entirely fair that we ensure that they

:02:36.:02:39.

contribute to the cost of their higher education. Let me now turn to

:02:40.:02:44.

specific changes to student finance to the coming academic year. The

:02:45.:02:49.

instrument delivers more money for students from some of the most

:02:50.:02:55.

disadvantaged backgrounds. Evidence suggests students are primarily

:02:56.:02:57.

concerned about the level of maintenance support they receive are

:02:58.:03:01.

studying. They understand student loans are not like commercial debt

:03:02.:03:04.

in that they are progressive and only repaid in line with future

:03:05.:03:10.

incomes. As a result of these regulations and eligible student

:03:11.:03:12.

whose family income is ?25,000 or less and who is living away from

:03:13.:03:16.

home and studying outside London will qualify for up to 10.3% more in

:03:17.:03:21.

living costs are poured in 2016-17 than they would under current

:03:22.:03:27.

arrangements. An additional support. Those who vote for the motion to

:03:28.:03:32.

annul this will deny poorer students this extra cash. Studies show the

:03:33.:03:38.

graduates will on average earn ?100,000 more over their lifetime.

:03:39.:03:46.

This premium could reach ?250,000 for female graduates than those who

:03:47.:04:00.

have two A-levels or less. The system we put in place ensures

:04:01.:04:04.

higher education is open to everyone with the potential to benefit from

:04:05.:04:07.

it irrespective of background. Oppositions them scaremongering only

:04:08.:04:13.

risks deterring students from attending university. Whilst the

:04:14.:04:21.

data available so far is only provisional, data from UCAS

:04:22.:04:27.

indicates application rates are broadly in line with last year.

:04:28.:04:38.

Let's not undo the good work of people touring the country. Over

:04:39.:04:50.

45,000 from England each year choose to study elsewhere in the UK. How

:04:51.:04:56.

does scrapping the maintenance grants incentivise them to travel

:04:57.:05:00.

further from their home to get the benefit of education at universities

:05:01.:05:04.

outside of England? I would point out to the honourable member that we

:05:05.:05:08.

are making a record amount of financial support available to those

:05:09.:05:11.

students, more than has been provided by any previous government

:05:12.:05:14.

and that will enable them to travel further away from home. Let me turn

:05:15.:05:19.

to the significant savings achieved by these changes. The switch from

:05:20.:05:25.

maintenance grants to loans will save around ?2.5 billion per year

:05:26.:05:32.

from the fiscal deficit. We acknowledge the proportion of loans

:05:33.:05:39.

will not be repaid. This is a conscious decision to invest in the

:05:40.:05:41.

skills base of our country and protect those who go on to lower

:05:42.:05:46.

paying graduate jobs. We forecast the long-term annual economic

:05:47.:05:50.

savings will be around ?800 million per year. The Minister said there

:05:51.:06:02.

was a deficit review. I agree with all points he made on grounds of

:06:03.:06:07.

social mobility that isn't the point this, 45% of his loan book at the

:06:08.:06:17.

moment declared delinquent for Ron reason or another. How much of this

:06:18.:06:21.

will he get back? Isn't he just pretending he was making savings,

:06:22.:06:25.

when really he is building up unfunded liabilities? There was an

:06:26.:06:31.

immediate grant saving of ?2.5 billion which directly comes off the

:06:32.:06:36.

budget deficit. As I just mentioned, there is also the prospect of some

:06:37.:06:41.

loans not being repaid. As a result of a conscious decision by the

:06:42.:06:45.

government to invest in the skills base of the country. The economic

:06:46.:06:55.

value of the savings is ?800 million a year in steady state. I challenge

:06:56.:06:59.

the opposition to explain how they would find their alternatives. I

:07:00.:07:03.

note the Labour Party have in the past year put forward competing

:07:04.:07:05.

higher education funding policies and that they share one significant

:07:06.:07:11.

feature and that is their huge cost to the taxpayer. Labour's leader

:07:12.:07:16.

Jeremy Corbyn said in July that these should be removed completely

:07:17.:07:21.

with grants retained in full. This was costed by Labour itself at ?10

:07:22.:07:27.

billion. These policies because backwards, they are unsustainable

:07:28.:07:31.

and at a conservative estimate would add over ?40 billion to the deficit

:07:32.:07:35.

over a five-year parliament. We should be clear about what this

:07:36.:07:39.

would mean, it would mean more reckless borrowing, more taxes on

:07:40.:07:42.

hard-working people and the reintroduction of student number

:07:43.:07:47.

controls. We have lifted these controls and we went to allow the

:07:48.:07:50.

Labour Party to reimpose a cap on young people's aspirations. I will

:07:51.:07:56.

turn now to the risks associated with this policy as set out in the

:07:57.:07:59.

quality analysis. Let me first quickly address the full circulation

:08:00.:08:04.

that we refuse to print published the assessment and all prompted to

:08:05.:08:09.

do do so by the NUS. This is not true. And equality analysis covering

:08:10.:08:20.

the changes is published. This is standard practice. On the 14th of

:08:21.:08:24.

September I provided a written response to a Parliamentary question

:08:25.:08:29.

saying, the government expects to laymen mince to the education

:08:30.:08:36.

student support regulations and publish something when they are

:08:37.:08:45.

laid. It was only on the 22nd of September 2015, more than one week

:08:46.:08:48.

after this answer, that the NUS gave notice that they were seeking to

:08:49.:08:52.

legally challenge our policy. There has been no pervasiveness in

:08:53.:08:55.

presenting this policy or its potential impacts. Let me turn

:08:56.:09:01.

finally to some of the issues that the equality analysis identifies and

:09:02.:09:05.

how they will be mitigated. Simmer issues were identified as a result

:09:06.:09:09.

of the 20 12th reforms that did not crystallise. We have a world-class

:09:10.:09:15.

higher education system with record numbers of disadvantage students in

:09:16.:09:22.

higher education. Our impact assessment and explained the risks

:09:23.:09:26.

will be mitigated by at least three factors including the 10.3% increase

:09:27.:09:33.

in maximum loan for living costs, the repayment protection for low

:09:34.:09:36.

earning students and high average returns to higher education. More

:09:37.:09:40.

funding is also being provided through access agreements. Into a

:09:41.:09:52.

216- is 17, -- this is money that makes the difference to disadvantage

:09:53.:09:55.

students. The University of York, 40% of

:09:56.:10:09.

students get a maintenance grant. What impact assessment have you had

:10:10.:10:12.

on universities by not attracting the students because they cannot

:10:13.:10:18.

afford to attend? As I have already said and I say again to the

:10:19.:10:23.

honourable member, we're making a record amount of financial support

:10:24.:10:27.

available and students from the poorest backgrounds will benefit

:10:28.:10:31.

from a 10.3% increase in financial support available. They will have

:10:32.:10:35.

more cash in their pockets than ever before. I hope I have been able to

:10:36.:10:39.

clarify some of the misconceptions around this policy. The steps we are

:10:40.:10:43.

taking to increase living costs port and the process surrounding it and I

:10:44.:10:48.

will finish by appointing members opposite is the direction of Ed

:10:49.:10:53.

balls interview in the Times. He said the blot on neighbours copybook

:10:54.:10:58.

is that we clearly didn't find a sustainable way forward for the

:10:59.:11:01.

financing of higher education. If the electric think you have the

:11:02.:11:06.

answer to the future, they will support you. -- electorate. We are

:11:07.:11:13.

taking action to ensure university finances are sustainable so more

:11:14.:11:15.

people can benefit from higher education than ever before.

:11:16.:11:24.

Before I call the front bench spokesperson for the SNP, can I

:11:25.:11:29.

remind you that there are 18 people that want to catch my eye. Wind ups

:11:30.:11:33.

will start in just over an hour so we will have a time limit of three

:11:34.:11:38.

or four minutes by the time we get to backbench contributions, so if

:11:39.:11:41.

you could be as concise as possible we will hopefully get everybody in.

:11:42.:11:48.

Madam Deputy Speaker, education has been a priority in Scotland for over

:11:49.:11:56.

300 years. In the mid-16th century the established church in Scotland

:11:57.:12:00.

decided to set up a school in every parish to enable children to read

:12:01.:12:04.

the Bible and access its teachings. By the early 18th century, Scottish

:12:05.:12:12.

children lead the world in terms of literacy levels, and fuelled the

:12:13.:12:16.

Scottish Enlightenment. This is important because it highlights the

:12:17.:12:22.

differences in terms of how education is geared across these

:12:23.:12:26.

isles. The focus in Scotland remains the student. There is a commitment

:12:27.:12:30.

not only to the young person's education but also an

:12:31.:12:34.

acknowledgement that the same young person will develop skills through

:12:35.:12:39.

their university career that make them an asset to the country. No, I

:12:40.:12:48.

won't. I have been reminded to be brief. In contrast, what we see from

:12:49.:12:54.

this Tory Government is an ideological attack on the most

:12:55.:13:00.

disadvantaged students. Whilst still at school, talented pupils in

:13:01.:13:04.

England have had their education maintenance allowance scrapped,

:13:05.:13:07.

forcing some youngsters to leave before they have reached their

:13:08.:13:12.

potential. In England and Wales we see fees of ?9,000 per year being

:13:13.:13:17.

imposed on students, and now we see Grants for the poorest being

:13:18.:13:22.

scrapped with the Chancellor describing them as unaffordable.

:13:23.:13:29.

Using language such as unaffordable, does the Chancellor considered these

:13:30.:13:35.

young people to be an asset? In my previous profession as a secondary

:13:36.:13:39.

school teacher, I often came across extremely able pupils from difficult

:13:40.:13:45.

backgrounds. It was important early on in their school career to planned

:13:46.:13:54.

a seed about possible career aspirations, because even with their

:13:55.:13:59.

academic success, to get them to university was not a certainty, and

:14:00.:14:03.

a lot of work had to be done both with the young people and their

:14:04.:14:05.

parents to encourage this progression. The honourable lady

:14:06.:14:15.

speaks with eloquence and knowledge because her past in secondary

:14:16.:14:18.

education has given her a great experience and I very much welcome

:14:19.:14:23.

her contribution. I would, though, challenge the way she is expressing

:14:24.:14:26.

herself on the difference between Scottish and English education on

:14:27.:14:29.

the grounds that English education has seen a greater mobility of

:14:30.:14:33.

children from all backgrounds to achieve tertiary education and in

:14:34.:14:36.

Scotland that is increasingly not the case. Would she not agree with

:14:37.:14:40.

me that the Scottish National party's achievement in the last five

:14:41.:14:46.

years has been a fall in social and the international re-education, and

:14:47.:14:51.

not arise? Once we hear the myth being expressed -- in tertiary

:14:52.:14:58.

education. If we look at numbers of young people going directly from

:14:59.:15:01.

school to university there is work to be done, non-bus would that.

:15:02.:15:08.

However, in Scotland, young people have many more pathways to access

:15:09.:15:12.

university, and if we look at the number of children going through

:15:13.:15:16.

further education colleges, the numbers of young people from

:15:17.:15:20.

disadvantaged backgrounds in Scotland are significantly higher

:15:21.:15:26.

than the rest of the UK. To go back to these young people and their

:15:27.:15:30.

parents, and eventually the chat would change to the logistics and

:15:31.:15:35.

how they were going to afford it. We had to go into the detail. Of

:15:36.:15:40.

course, the parent usually full of pride, often the child is the first

:15:41.:15:44.

in the family to have even thought about going to university.

:15:45.:15:48.

Explaining that in Scotland tuition is free makes a huge difference, but

:15:49.:15:53.

then the parents still have to weigh things up. They have been expecting

:15:54.:15:58.

a new breadwinner contributing to the household. They have been

:15:59.:16:02.

expecting that their daughter or son's Saturday job was going to

:16:03.:16:07.

become their full career. Instead, the financial burden on the families

:16:08.:16:15.

is stretching on. I will give way. I am grateful. My constituent is an

:16:16.:16:24.

English student studying in Wales, already facing debts of ?36,000, and

:16:25.:16:31.

if these proposals went through it would rise to 60 5000. Does the

:16:32.:16:36.

honourable lady think this will encourage him to pursue his career

:16:37.:16:40.

path into teaching or not -- rise to ?65,000. The fact is the barrier

:16:41.:16:49.

then becomes unsurmountable for these young people will stop I was

:16:50.:16:58.

one of five who managed to go to university and got grants at that

:16:59.:17:03.

time. For my family it would have been impossible for us to access a

:17:04.:17:10.

university education. Being able to say to these parents, yes, there is

:17:11.:17:14.

some support available, yes, you will be able to apply for financial

:17:15.:17:18.

help, it makes a massive difference to the decisions of family will

:17:19.:17:24.

make. When there is less family support around, this financial

:17:25.:17:32.

support of a grant becomes a lifeline. Of course, students can

:17:33.:17:37.

apply for loans to support them through their course, and many do,

:17:38.:17:41.

but we have to understand that loans are not viewed in a similar manner

:17:42.:17:47.

from children across different backgrounds. For families who are

:17:48.:17:51.

living under the constant threat of debt, for whom life is a continual

:17:52.:17:57.

battle to survive between meagre wage packets, the decision to take

:17:58.:18:05.

out a loan, introducing further debt, is extremely difficult, and

:18:06.:18:08.

often it is one that they just cannot take. I thank her for giving

:18:09.:18:16.

way. I cannot agree with you more on that point. The Institute for Fiscal

:18:17.:18:21.

Studies have said that the debt of the poorest 40% of students will

:18:22.:18:28.

increase by ?12,500 to ?53,500. I don't know where the members

:18:29.:18:32.

opposite are coming from, but from my point of view, as someone who

:18:33.:18:36.

came from a working-class background, that would have put me

:18:37.:18:39.

off from going to university and will put many thousands of students

:18:40.:18:51.

from going to university. This is not about social mobility, there is

:18:52.:18:53.

no point of social justice here, it is about social cleansing and

:18:54.:18:56.

keeping them out of university, and it is wrong. I agree wholeheartedly

:18:57.:19:00.

with the comments the honourable member has made. I would like to

:19:01.:19:06.

move on at this point to widening access. There has been some success

:19:07.:19:11.

in widening access, that has to be applauded. But there is a real

:19:12.:19:14.

danger that the excellent work that has already been done will be rude

:19:15.:19:21.

to Lee underdone if these grants are scrapped -- brutally underdone. Last

:19:22.:19:25.

week I heard a member from the benches opposite in a different

:19:26.:19:28.

context refer to grants as free money. Let me be quite clear. Grants

:19:29.:19:40.

are not free money. Grants are paid, the grant I received as a student

:19:41.:19:48.

was paid back over 20 years as a physics teacher. The bursary is

:19:49.:19:52.

provided to student nurses are paid back when they provide vital care in

:19:53.:19:59.

our NHS. The grants paid to students across these isles will be paid back

:20:00.:20:06.

when they take their place as educated contributors to our

:20:07.:20:12.

workforce and our nations. In Scotland, education has been a key

:20:13.:20:16.

national priority for over 300 years, with the Scottish Government

:20:17.:20:18.

commitment to our young people clear. The UK Government has to ask

:20:19.:20:28.

itself, does it value education and the benefits to society that

:20:29.:20:34.

education brings? Does it value the skills gained by our young people?

:20:35.:20:41.

Or is this simply another attack on the most former rebel? --

:20:42.:20:50.

vulnerable. I'm going to put a time limit of four minutes onto

:20:51.:20:54.

backbencher contributions, so we might get through everybody. The

:20:55.:20:58.

problem with today's debate is simple, there is no alternative

:20:59.:21:03.

being offered to the bill which has been put before the House. This

:21:04.:21:07.

leads on to the broader point in this conversation, that, for all of

:21:08.:21:11.

the huffing and puffing from the benches opposite, their idea of

:21:12.:21:14.

social mobility is, we will just give lots of money and let lots of

:21:15.:21:18.

people go and worry about paying it back later even though the economy

:21:19.:21:23.

will crash like it did before. Social mobility went down 30% under

:21:24.:21:29.

13 years of Labour Government, given away last week when the Leader of

:21:30.:21:33.

the Opposition thought it was a bad policy for us to improve social

:21:34.:21:37.

housing and get rid of some of the sink estates, the idea that where

:21:38.:21:42.

you are born is where you should stay and we will but after you by

:21:43.:21:46.

printing money. Absolute nonsense. I worked in the higher education

:21:47.:21:52.

sector for many years. I was asked a direct question was about what would

:21:53.:21:55.

happen if we hadn't increased tuition fees? The answer came back,

:21:56.:21:59.

we would limit the number of people who could go. I think that is

:22:00.:22:06.

abysmal. For all of the talking from the honourable member about being

:22:07.:22:09.

from a working-class background, guess what? So were people on this

:22:10.:22:14.

site as well. You try to bring class warfare into an argument which is

:22:15.:22:19.

absolute nonsense. It is not just about the quantity of students, if

:22:20.:22:23.

we hadn't increased the funding it is the quality of the degree each

:22:24.:22:27.

student would receive that would suffer. Entirely. That is why

:22:28.:22:32.

efforts have been made to address the A-level and exam system in this

:22:33.:22:36.

country, because as somebody who was outward facing in my career

:22:37.:22:40.

university it was shocking to go to countries in Europe, like Germany,

:22:41.:22:44.

and be told they were worried about the standard of degrees coming out

:22:45.:22:48.

because of the A-levels which work being done to get to those courses.

:22:49.:22:53.

As a prime example, we had to lay on two extra modules of basic maths in

:22:54.:22:57.

year one of our engineering degrees and had students who simply could

:22:58.:23:01.

not cope with the mathematics being used who had good grades at A-level.

:23:02.:23:06.

This is all part of a bigger picture, this is what the point

:23:07.:23:09.

about the debate today is, it has got to be about opportunities for

:23:10.:23:15.

everybody going to university. It is all very well picking on one area

:23:16.:23:19.

and saying, you shouldn't cut this. Is there any alternative as to how

:23:20.:23:26.

that money should be raised? The consequence is the system becomes

:23:27.:23:28.

unaffordable, and then you limit the numbers of people who can go bust up

:23:29.:23:32.

I went to a comprehensive school, my parents were teachers, I went to

:23:33.:23:36.

university, became a teacher and then an MP. My sister has just

:23:37.:23:43.

qualified at the Royal College of surgeons. No money was spent to send

:23:44.:23:47.

us to school, we got part-time jobs, I took on a job at WH Smith when I

:23:48.:23:55.

was still at school. He is telling the House in clear terms and

:23:56.:24:01.

explicit Conservative story of hard work, opportunity, and meritocracy,

:24:02.:24:08.

in sharp contradiction to the narrative opposite where they were

:24:09.:24:10.

too busy thinking about their reshuffle rather than the order and

:24:11.:24:16.

were too busy trying to plot and plan to keep people in their places

:24:17.:24:22.

while costing the glass ceilings. My honourable friend begs an excellent

:24:23.:24:26.

point. This is what today's debate from the opposition is about, not

:24:27.:24:29.

about the best interests of how to move the country forward. That is

:24:30.:24:34.

white under 13 years of Labour whistled social mobility reduced,

:24:35.:24:37.

they are statistics that you cannot argue with. A 36% increase in the

:24:38.:24:42.

numbers from the poorest background going to university, we raised the

:24:43.:24:46.

level at which you had to pay back a student loan to ?21,000, the fact we

:24:47.:24:51.

have reduced the amount you pay back each day, the fact you don't start

:24:52.:24:55.

paying interest on to leave university, the fact it has got a

:24:56.:24:59.

time limit so it gets written off after a period of time. All of these

:25:00.:25:08.

things are key aspects in making sure we can get people to university

:25:09.:25:10.

and week the best of their potential. Does he agree with me

:25:11.:25:14.

that the way to encourage social mobility and getting more

:25:15.:25:16.

disadvantaged backgrounds into university is firstly to improve

:25:17.:25:20.

their chances in education in the first instance and also encourage

:25:21.:25:24.

and show them what they could achieve and raise their expectations

:25:25.:25:27.

and confidence, not try to frighten them with fears of debt in the

:25:28.:25:31.

future? My honourable friend is right, what we have seen time and

:25:32.:25:35.

again from the party opposite is this argument off, you cannot afford

:25:36.:25:39.

to go to university, you will have huge debts, you from a poor

:25:40.:25:50.

background so don't go because you will be worried about debt, don't

:25:51.:25:53.

increase your life chances. It is an absolute disgrace of modern politics

:25:54.:25:55.

that this is the rubbish paddled from the other side. What we have in

:25:56.:25:58.

this country is an X Factor generation who believe that they can

:25:59.:26:01.

go on to the X Factor and windy X Factor and become rich. Why didn't

:26:02.:26:04.

we have that about the possibilities and academic education and

:26:05.:26:07.

professional careers? Because you had a Labour Government who wanted

:26:08.:26:11.

to keep them where they were. You may be lucky enough to pull yourself

:26:12.:26:14.

out of that situation but if you don't, don't worry, we will keep

:26:15.:26:19.

borrowing money and rack up debts that people working hard campaign

:26:20.:26:24.

for so you can stay where you are. That is not what we believe on this

:26:25.:26:27.

side of the House, we believe of a generation who go out and pull

:26:28.:26:31.

themselves up and get the education they are capable of getting and

:26:32.:26:34.

becoming the people who drive this country. This idea we have already

:26:35.:26:39.

heard today that there is the working class, here is the upper

:26:40.:26:42.

class on this side of the House, it is so outdated and misguided that it

:26:43.:26:46.

is quite frankly laughable, and that has been the problem with this

:26:47.:26:49.

opposition since we came back into the start of this Parliament, it has

:26:50.:26:55.

been laughable. It is laughable that the opposition bring forward a

:26:56.:27:00.

motion today saying, we don't agree with the legislative process that

:27:01.:27:04.

we'd laid down back in 1998, we say that you didn't do anything about

:27:05.:27:08.

this when the time was right, but actually it was laid before the

:27:09.:27:12.

floor of the House. This is purely trying to stop the old class wars

:27:13.:27:16.

because that is all the Labour Party have to fall back on.

:27:17.:27:54.

come up with something that may take the situation in a better direction.

:27:55.:27:58.

Simply saying something like we don't like it is pathetic. It's that

:27:59.:28:05.

that is what we have come to expect from this opposition. I want to

:28:06.:28:14.

begin by thanking my colleagues, the members for a remark for the fact

:28:15.:28:19.

that this debate is taking place. I am very pleased that at least we

:28:20.:28:37.

are able to call the minister to account this afternoon. However, I

:28:38.:28:42.

think it is extremely disappointing that he showed no contrition

:28:43.:28:45.

whatsoever for introducing policies that are likely to limit the

:28:46.:28:49.

aspirations of many young people in this country at the very least make

:28:50.:28:53.

it more difficult for them to achieve it. I will not give way to

:28:54.:28:59.

the honourable gentleman because we are yet we do know that these

:29:00.:29:03.

changes will affect many students. The House of Commons states that in

:29:04.:29:10.

2014-15 395,000 students receive the full grant with 135,000 getting a

:29:11.:29:17.

partial grant. This amounts to over half a million students. Students

:29:18.:29:24.

who go to higher education from families with an annual income of

:29:25.:29:29.

?25,000 or less are eligible for this full grant of ?3387, and

:29:30.:29:35.

students from households with an annual income of between ?25,000 and

:29:36.:29:41.

?42,000 are eligible for the partial grant. However, in the summer budget

:29:42.:29:48.

of July, it was cited that France had become unaffordable. -- grants.

:29:49.:29:58.

Politics is about priorities and this government has simply chosen

:29:59.:30:02.

not to prioritise the needs of students from low income families

:30:03.:30:10.

and astoundingly, to make them a target for cuts. Yet the government

:30:11.:30:14.

has talked endlessly about the importance of hard work and

:30:15.:30:18.

rewarding those who want to achieve and yet now they are undoubtedly

:30:19.:30:21.

making it more difficult for a number of our young people to have

:30:22.:30:25.

the opportunity to access higher education. The move to ?9,000 fees

:30:26.:30:34.

in 2012 has meant that students and graduates now contribute 75% towards

:30:35.:30:37.

the overall cost of their higher education. The replacement of grants

:30:38.:30:44.

by loans will further increase the contribution of individuals compare

:30:45.:30:48.

to the government and yet no conversation has taken place with

:30:49.:30:51.

students, their parents or across the country as to what the balance

:30:52.:30:57.

should be. We do know that these changes will lead to an increase in

:30:58.:31:05.

debt for poorer students. Assuming students take out the maximum loan,

:31:06.:31:11.

the ISS estimate average debt for a three-year course will rise from

:31:12.:31:18.

about ?14,500 under the old system to ?53,000 in the new system. This

:31:19.:31:23.

is not a fear of debt, this is an actual increase in debt and we also

:31:24.:31:29.

know from the impact statement that these changes will impact

:31:30.:31:33.

particularly on women, older students and students from ethnic

:31:34.:31:38.

minorities. Reason alone to stop these policies in their tracks. And

:31:39.:31:42.

I know I stand here as someone who is passionate about supporting

:31:43.:31:50.

students from all backgrounds who -- wants to have access higher

:31:51.:31:54.

education, we know these changes are likely to make it more difficult for

:31:55.:31:59.

them to do so. As a country we need to ensure that our young people have

:32:00.:32:04.

the skills to enable them to compete on a global labour market and I am

:32:05.:32:08.

concerned that these changes will prevent them from doing so. Honour

:32:09.:32:20.

to follow the honourable lady. A speech combining both expertise and

:32:21.:32:25.

passion. I will follow in the footsteps of the Leader of the

:32:26.:32:28.

Opposition, that is his new style of reading out e-mails from

:32:29.:32:33.

constituents. I am aware that students are concerned about this

:32:34.:32:39.

measure. I have had an e-mail from the vice president of the Kent

:32:40.:32:46.

student union, is concerned that if grants are removed, young people

:32:47.:32:49.

from poorer backgrounds will accrue more debt Bruno fought at their own.

:32:50.:32:54.

My answer to him and all others concerned about this, I don't

:32:55.:32:58.

believe this will hinder access to higher education for those from

:32:59.:33:02.

poorer grants. Number one, we are increasing the cash they will have

:33:03.:33:03.

in their to sustain University and deal with

:33:04.:34:11.

the costs they will face on a day-to-day basis. Secondly, because

:34:12.:34:13.

we are increasing the level by which you repay your student debt from

:34:14.:34:15.

?15,000 to ?21,000. If you don't earn that, you don't repay.

:34:16.:34:17.

Statistics show this is not having the impact that members opposite are

:34:18.:34:19.

warning. People... Under this policy, the beneficiary pays. I will

:34:20.:34:22.

give way. We have increased social mobility. It does not echo the words

:34:23.:34:25.

of the Prime Minister. In terms of the principle of the beneficiary

:34:26.:34:27.

pays, it is about those poorer working class people who will not go

:34:28.:34:30.

to university, who chose not to go to university, not getting them to

:34:31.:34:32.

pay for the education of others who will go on to earn significantly

:34:33.:34:35.

more than them. It is a fair principle. That is why this is about

:34:36.:34:38.

fairness. The key point I want to make is that it is about the quality

:34:39.:34:44.

of education. What really matters to that student from disadvantaged

:34:45.:34:48.

background is that they achieve an excellent degree and that enables

:34:49.:34:52.

them to earn a good salary and get on in life. That is the most

:34:53.:34:56.

important thing. If universities are well funded, students will have more

:34:57.:35:00.

chance of a quality degree but I'll so believe profoundly that when

:35:01.:35:04.

people pay for something, when they contribute, they taken more

:35:05.:35:07.

seriously and therefore they get more of it. The SNP are laughing and

:35:08.:35:12.

it is delighting to seize their many of them here because there was only

:35:13.:35:19.

two or three of or three of them hate yesterday and I was quite

:35:20.:35:22.

surprised. In my experience, before it came to the house, we were a

:35:23.:35:30.

mortgage broker and we were fortunate to have an exclusive

:35:31.:35:32.

arrangement with Britannia that the Society for graduates. -- building

:35:33.:35:39.

society. It never fails to astonish me, having seen the jury thousands

:35:40.:35:46.

of applications, that the more debt those graduates had, the higher

:35:47.:35:50.

their earnings were. Often because they took professional studies. The

:35:51.:35:53.

number of people who have professional studies loaned from

:35:54.:35:57.

banks who have gone on to study law, they have the highest earnings. Of

:35:58.:36:01.

course we don't want people to have ridiculously high debt, and that is

:36:02.:36:06.

why they would be cancelled after 30 years if not repaid. But I think we

:36:07.:36:10.

have to get our heads around the key point here, the quality of education

:36:11.:36:17.

is what really matters. Does he agree that by extending the system

:36:18.:36:24.

of finance so that more part-time students and more postgraduate

:36:25.:36:30.

students can receive funding, it is actually helping social mobility and

:36:31.:36:33.

greater opportunities for people who otherwise wouldn't be able to have

:36:34.:36:37.

access to higher education and postgraduate education? This is an

:36:38.:36:42.

excellent point because I was good to mention the fact that the

:36:43.:36:45.

minister is actually bringing forward for the first time masters

:36:46.:36:48.

loans and I think that is important. In my experience I found those who

:36:49.:36:54.

had borrowed... Birds Eye watering sums to do those courses where the

:36:55.:37:00.

biggest sums were payable, they often had very high earnings indeed

:37:01.:37:04.

and that is the reality of life and it is about the quality degree you

:37:05.:37:14.

get. I will wrap up because I know lots of honourable members want to

:37:15.:37:18.

get in. I will touch on a broader economic issue. When we talk about

:37:19.:37:22.

graduates, we know that the number of graduate jobs has just increased

:37:23.:37:27.

by 7.5%. The most important contribution the government can make

:37:28.:37:31.

to higher education is to have a strong economy offering lots of

:37:32.:37:34.

opportunities for our graduates to ensure they can and the salaries and

:37:35.:37:38.

therefore repay the cost of education that they have benefit

:37:39.:37:53.

from. The Minister relies on increase in participation to

:37:54.:37:55.

universities and record numbers of students going to universities will

:37:56.:37:59.

stop I did its job once and I remember standing at the dispatch

:38:00.:38:02.

box and say the very same thing that the debate we are having today is

:38:03.:38:08.

not really about that, it is not about the widening participation,

:38:09.:38:12.

about numbers of students. It is about the cohort of students whose

:38:13.:38:16.

parents are from poor or working-class backgrounds, they are

:38:17.:38:23.

dinner ladies, they run minicabs, they are security guards, they are

:38:24.:38:27.

receptionists, they are people on Syria our contracts, people who are

:38:28.:38:32.

unemployed. It is about their children who aspire to go to

:38:33.:38:37.

universities. -- zero our contracts. That is why it is quite out raises

:38:38.:38:44.

that other former minister with responsibilities that universities I

:38:45.:38:49.

am just allowed four minutes in this debate. Back in 2009 when we made

:38:50.:38:54.

changes on maintenance grants, we were able to actually increase the

:38:55.:38:58.

amount we were given to students earning less than 25 thousand pounds

:38:59.:39:04.

and increase the amount of partial grants for students whose parents

:39:05.:39:19.

had incomes up Dutchman. -- it is an outrage, frankly, that this kind of

:39:20.:39:23.

scrutiny has been dragged out of the minister because of the work of the

:39:24.:39:27.

NUS and the work of the front bench of the Labour Party. It should have

:39:28.:39:31.

been something that was a debating point. I have to say to the minister

:39:32.:39:36.

it is not about widening participation, it is about fair

:39:37.:39:42.

access. There has been a 50% increase in the amount of students

:39:43.:39:47.

choosing to stay at home rather than go to universities that they would

:39:48.:39:52.

love to go to. What does that really mean? Usually you stay at home at

:39:53.:39:58.

the nearest university to you in deprived constituencies. It is

:39:59.:40:01.

likely that university is a modern university even though you may have

:40:02.:40:04.

got those three aims to become want to become and do medicine at a more

:40:05.:40:10.

teaching, research intensive university. That is what the debate

:40:11.:40:17.

is about and that is why his own impact assessment says there will be

:40:18.:40:20.

a disproportionate effect on students from the M E background. I

:40:21.:40:26.

say to the Minister, does that matter? He can't in one breath come

:40:27.:40:30.

to the house and rightly say the statements he has said about

:40:31.:40:34.

unconscious bias and then in the other hand change the context of

:40:35.:40:42.

those students from poorer backgrounds and this proportionate

:40:43.:40:45.

league affect them. For mature students this will have a great

:40:46.:40:51.

impact. That is why I'm surprised they are moving forward with the

:40:52.:40:56.

changes in the they are. We have a basis of consensus across the house,

:40:57.:41:02.

we did a few years ago, that the state, universities and the student

:41:03.:41:04.

make a contribution to their education. But this settlement

:41:05.:41:08.

effectively is doing is withdrawing the state even further than after

:41:09.:41:14.

the 2010 Parliament and actually landing the debt entirely on the

:41:15.:41:20.

student and when he says there was no alternative, the alternative is

:41:21.:41:27.

actually to go to the universities themselves who per student, the

:41:28.:41:31.

funding has gone from ?22,000 to ?28,000. There was funding

:41:32.:41:40.

available, despite the fact on his figures, 45% of those students will

:41:41.:41:45.

not be able to repay their loans. It will have a disproportionate effect

:41:46.:41:49.

on poorer students. Despite the fact the Minister is not a bad guy, this

:41:50.:41:52.

is a mistake you will regret. I welcome the fact this debate is

:41:53.:42:10.

being held in this chamber. I would also like to refer to my own

:42:11.:42:14.

situation because I feel most strongly that it is right for us on

:42:15.:42:19.

the side of the bench to dispel the myth coming from the opposition side

:42:20.:42:23.

that students in a situation similar to me, to my background will not be

:42:24.:42:28.

able to go to university by these changes and I say that someone who

:42:29.:42:31.

has taken out loans myself in to get me through my fashion or training.

:42:32.:42:38.

By way of further illustration I failed my 12 plus when I was at

:42:39.:42:44.

school. I was advised by my teachers not to waste my time doing A-levels

:42:45.:42:48.

but I'm glad I ignored that advice. I went off to sixth form College and

:42:49.:42:52.

was fortunate enough to study at university. Whereas my parents

:42:53.:42:57.

background was by no means one where money was there available to us, I

:42:58.:43:03.

just miss out on a maintenance grant so I understood straightaway how

:43:04.:43:07.

important it was to be able to work through your university to fund

:43:08.:43:13.

yourself and work hard as a result. As a result they worked through my

:43:14.:43:16.

Christmas, my Easter, summer and during term time at Durham as well.

:43:17.:43:22.

Thereafter, when studying in London to go through bar school, I had to

:43:23.:43:26.

take out loans and work outside of my course not just to cover my

:43:27.:43:30.

maintenance but to cover my fees in addition. I therefore took out tens

:43:31.:43:35.

of thousands of pounds in debt with no earnings threshold on repayment.

:43:36.:43:40.

This was incredibly daunting that it made me determined to succeed in

:43:41.:43:44.

order to pay those loans back. Working around my study with heart

:43:45.:43:50.

in addition but it gave me valuable experience about the world of work.

:43:51.:43:56.

-- was hard. To be told that working outside of your degree makes it

:43:57.:44:00.

impossible to do your degree, I find it an incredible concept and one

:44:01.:44:05.

that did not work for me. 20 years on I regard the loans I took out to

:44:06.:44:09.

be the best form of investment paper made in myself. I go round schools

:44:10.:44:15.

in my constituency telling students there to chase their dreams and not

:44:16.:44:22.

be put off putting -- going to university. It is the most

:44:23.:44:26.

incredible investment some one can make in themselves. I am afraid

:44:27.:44:33.

whilst I find the comments made on the benches opposite well-meaning, I

:44:34.:44:36.

find it incredibly patronising in the extreme to be told that the loan

:44:37.:44:40.

system will put students in a similar situation to my own. Young

:44:41.:44:48.

people chasing their own dreams. Those two have aspirations and self

:44:49.:44:52.

belief will make it a target to repay loans and they will use the

:44:53.:44:56.

degree to enjoy levels of success in their careers which university will

:44:57.:45:00.

afford them. In an ideal situation, this country could afford to fund 's

:45:01.:45:03.

university students for the maintenance but in this country as

:45:04.:45:07.

successive governments have moved towards, we have adopted a model

:45:08.:45:11.

whereby we allow all those who go to university to go there. Record

:45:12.:45:18.

numbers from disadvantaged backgrounds, backgrounds similar to

:45:19.:45:22.

my own is are going to university. I won't give way because of time. Most

:45:23.:45:28.

students understand we are moving towards a loan system and are

:45:29.:45:31.

comfortable with that because they do not want bleeding hearts, they

:45:32.:45:35.

want a job at the end of their degree. By balancing the books they

:45:36.:45:39.

make it more likely they will have a job, security and success, they will

:45:40.:45:43.

be able to pay their loans back and able to enjoy the fruits of their

:45:44.:45:51.

own labour. I would beg the house to send a message that university is

:45:52.:45:52.

available to Warner matter your major reversal of Government policy

:45:53.:46:29.

and it is being taken without any mandate.

:46:30.:46:49.

I would urge members opposite... I will happily give way now.

:46:50.:47:31.

Conservative ministers said our proposals help to encourage people

:47:32.:47:34.

from poorer backgrounds because of the higher education maintenance

:47:35.:47:37.

grants. That crucial commitment is one of the seasons we commend these

:47:38.:47:42.

proposals to the house, and reflecting on their approach into in

:47:43.:47:49.

2012, a conservative minister, the maintenance grant and support for

:47:50.:47:54.

bursaries are going up. That is why we have record weights of

:47:55.:47:58.

applications to university. In opposition, in government, year

:47:59.:48:03.

after year, Conservative ministers, Conservative shadow ministers

:48:04.:48:05.

rightly making the case for maintenance grants and suddenly this

:48:06.:48:08.

has been thrown into reverse by the Chancellor in the July budget

:48:09.:48:16.

without proper consideration of this impact. We are talking about the

:48:17.:48:23.

poorest students and we haven't seen assessments behind the July

:48:24.:48:32.

decision. This is extremely worrying and members opposite should pay

:48:33.:48:36.

regard to this because it to the government's own assessment on

:48:37.:48:41.

participation from low income households, and once there are

:48:42.:48:47.

limits. On gender it expects a decrease in female participation, an

:48:48.:48:53.

aged says there is a risk of participation of older students, and

:48:54.:48:59.

on ethnicity, it says the same. On religion it says there will be a

:49:00.:49:04.

declining participation of some Muslim students. Real impact on real

:49:05.:49:10.

people and it is confirmed by those affected. A survey of students in

:49:11.:49:14.

receipt of maintenance grants said that 35% of them said they would not

:49:15.:49:20.

have gone to university without a grant. A new survey by populace

:49:21.:49:28.

third parents from low income backgrounds says 43% of those

:49:29.:49:31.

believed children will be discouraged from going to university

:49:32.:49:36.

without a grant. Evidence from the Institute of education, for every

:49:37.:49:45.

1000 pound grant, there is an increase in participation from lower

:49:46.:49:51.

income families. The irony is the government has set ambitious

:49:52.:49:56.

objectives for widening participation. The problem is this

:49:57.:50:00.

policy will stop it. I urge members opposite is to vote

:50:01.:52:10.

face the fact that in China there are more people with doctors coming

:52:11.:52:13.

out as many as we have as people with degrees. It is absolutely

:52:14.:52:18.

essential to increase the novels of people going to university. Let's

:52:19.:52:22.

bear in mind the words of the Robbins report, University education

:52:23.:52:29.

should be available to all. I fear if the motion set before us today

:52:30.:52:33.

were passed, there would be a cap on university numbers and that is

:52:34.:52:36.

really not what we want. This would be a cap on aspiration limiting

:52:37.:52:43.

student numbers. Bad for social mobility and our economy. I ask the

:52:44.:52:48.

members opposite what are they offering? Cuts elsewhere, taxes

:52:49.:52:52.

elsewhere? Or are they offering caps? I've been listening hard to

:52:53.:52:57.

the members opposite that once again from those benches answers, there

:52:58.:53:09.

none. A very timely debate on an important issue. To statements

:53:10.:53:19.

struck me. The first that came from a minister who said it was an

:53:20.:53:23.

important deficit reduction measure and the other when the Minister said

:53:24.:53:31.

all the students he knew said they were comfortable with the level of

:53:32.:53:40.

borrowing when they left university. The government wants to promote the

:53:41.:53:44.

idea of a shareholding tomography, increase is social mobility and all

:53:45.:53:47.

the other points to which they pay praise, doesn't realise how anyone

:53:48.:53:52.

in the foreseeable future will ever be able to afford a mortgage when

:53:53.:54:00.

they are carrying with them ?53,500 of debt. He has done nothing to

:54:01.:54:08.

contradict the figures they have an unhappy knack of being right about

:54:09.:54:13.

these things. It does seem to be a strange sort of accounting that says

:54:14.:54:23.

we have a student loan book, we know 45% of it should be written off but

:54:24.:54:28.

we can't write it off. We know it is effective for one reason or another,

:54:29.:54:32.

interest not paid or no likelihood for it being repaid and yet no

:54:33.:54:38.

action is taken to write that off. Similarly, we are now going to

:54:39.:54:49.

increase that by 2 billion. You write 45%, you know it won't get

:54:50.:54:58.

repaid, it is a great exercise in Dudu accounting promoted by the

:54:59.:55:06.

Treasury. The Minister for universities accept it when he knows

:55:07.:55:11.

full well there is no real case on those grounds at all. It is bad for

:55:12.:55:21.

social mobility, it is bad for fairness and it will leave students

:55:22.:55:26.

with an enormous burden of debt. ?53,000 a year, how can anyone think

:55:27.:55:30.

it is a sensible proposition to put two youngsters today when we needn't

:55:31.:55:35.

do it. The government won't get the money back anyway. It beggars

:55:36.:55:39.

belief. I urge the government to think again and I am pleased we are

:55:40.:55:41.

dividing on whether their friends aspire to go

:55:42.:56:20.

to university. That was what I think was a very important part of the

:56:21.:56:24.

conversation I had with them. The arguments that we hear from the

:56:25.:56:31.

opposition about loans, it is like a recycled debate from what we heard a

:56:32.:56:37.

few years ago, young people and students are becoming much more

:56:38.:56:42.

attuned to understand the progressive nature of the loan

:56:43.:56:46.

system that we have introduced, that the low-income graduates will not

:56:47.:56:54.

have to pay back the loans until they get over a certain income

:56:55.:56:58.

threshold, and as the Universities Minister rightly pointed out in his

:56:59.:57:03.

remarks, this is a choice that the Government has made to put our

:57:04.:57:09.

higher education system onto a sustainable footing. It is a choice

:57:10.:57:14.

the Government has taken to design a progressive loan system in order to

:57:15.:57:19.

enable students of whatever background to aspire to go to

:57:20.:57:23.

university. As other honourable members pointed out, the system that

:57:24.:57:29.

has been designed by the Government introduces loans for part-time

:57:30.:57:32.

students for maintenance for the first time, which will have a

:57:33.:57:36.

considerable ulcerative impact on social mobility, introducing

:57:37.:57:41.

maintenance loans for MA Bill and postgraduates again, having a direct

:57:42.:57:44.

impact on different ways of accessing higher education. To hear

:57:45.:57:51.

the arguments from the opposition is a bit like a Groundhog Day. No

:57:52.:58:08.

alternatives have been posited. All of us in this House should be

:58:09.:58:15.

working towards social inclusion. The narrative on the other side of

:58:16.:58:18.

the House is tailored to specifically protrude people from

:58:19.:58:24.

applying to go on to further education. Isn't it time to just

:58:25.:58:26.

explain what my honourable friend is saying? He makes a powerful point

:58:27.:58:33.

and I was very struck by speaking to these students that what we needed

:58:34.:58:37.

to do was educate them about the realities of diving into higher

:58:38.:58:41.

education, whether that is better information about courses they might

:58:42.:58:42.

be able to do, what it means to take

:58:43.:58:59.

out a student loan, because, as the honourable member says, there is a

:59:00.:59:01.

lot of propaganda out there about being saddled with debt. There needs

:59:02.:59:04.

to be more education about what that means in practice. Does he agree

:59:05.:59:07.

with me that young people these days are getting much more savvy about

:59:08.:59:09.

the courses they want to take and whether there is good engagement at

:59:10.:59:12.

the University with employability guidance and that kind of thing?

:59:13.:59:18.

Again, that has been one of the core benefits of the reforms that were

:59:19.:59:21.

introduced in the previous parliament and being developed now,

:59:22.:59:26.

encouraging raising the quality of courses in higher education, making

:59:27.:59:29.

students much more discriminating about what it is they want to get

:59:30.:59:33.

out of their higher education, and greater understanding about, as the

:59:34.:59:39.

Universities Minister pointed out, what economists dryly recalled the

:59:40.:59:45.

returns -- dryly call the returns to our higher education. We are seeing

:59:46.:59:50.

huge opportunities in the graduate market, more graduates getting

:59:51.:59:54.

high-quality jobs, we are seeing more people taking those

:59:55.:59:56.

opportunities that are out there, so I think the system that has been

:59:57.:00:05.

devised is progressive, it won't be, the evidence is that the loans

:00:06.:00:09.

system has not had that kind of detrimental impact on access which

:00:10.:00:15.

honourable members were warning about a few years ago. It is another

:00:16.:00:19.

one of those Groundhog Day recycled scare stories, it simply isn't

:00:20.:00:25.

happening. We are seeing more people from disadvantaged backgrounds get

:00:26.:00:28.

into university, and I think it would be very much a backward step

:00:29.:00:33.

to accept the motion put forward by the opposition, which gives no

:00:34.:00:36.

credible alternative to the plan put forward by the Government, but runs

:00:37.:00:41.

away from the difficult choices that this Government has made to get our

:00:42.:00:46.

higher education system on a sustainable footing, and I urge the

:00:47.:00:48.

House to reject the motion presented by the opposition. I am privileged

:00:49.:00:56.

to represent a university constituency, Cardiff Central, which

:00:57.:00:59.

has one of the highest proportions, not quite the highest, student of

:01:00.:01:04.

any constituency in the UK. Tens of thousands of students live and study

:01:05.:01:08.

in Cardiff Central, many from Wales but many are from England, and so

:01:09.:01:13.

day, unlike their Welsh beers, will be badly affected by this proposal

:01:14.:01:18.

to scrap student maintenance grants. Because, of course, the Labour

:01:19.:01:21.

Government in Wales not only believes in aspiration and

:01:22.:01:25.

protecting students from crippling levels of

:01:26.:01:38.

debt, it actually puts its money where its mouth is. Today in my

:01:39.:01:41.

constituency we have Welsh students sitting next to English student in

:01:42.:01:44.

the same lecture on the same course at the same university, living in

:01:45.:01:46.

the same accommodation, but thanks to the benches opposite and to the

:01:47.:01:49.

Liberal Democrats, they are not there any more, the Welsh student

:01:50.:01:51.

has paid one third of the annual tuition fees that an English student

:01:52.:01:54.

pays. It is not just tuition fees were the Labour Government in Wales

:01:55.:01:57.

has supported students. The coalition Government abolished

:01:58.:02:00.

educational maintenance allowance, and the Welsh Labour Government kept

:02:01.:02:04.

it. The Labour Government in Wales are not abolishing student

:02:05.:02:08.

maintenance grants nor NHS bursaries for nurses and midwives studying in

:02:09.:02:12.

Wales. Unlike the party opposite we believe in investing in future

:02:13.:02:16.

generations. The Government is claiming that scrapping grants went

:02:17.:02:20.

to prevent access to university but the most disadvantaged students, but

:02:21.:02:24.

how do they know? They haven't even asked them. No consultation of

:02:25.:02:29.

students, non-with parents, not with higher education. What has the party

:02:30.:02:34.

opposite got against young people? They have trebled tuition fees,

:02:35.:02:39.

abolished DMA, they won't allow 16 and 17-year-olds to vote and are

:02:40.:02:48.

happy to lecture everyone on balancing the books and reducing

:02:49.:02:50.

debt whilst at the same time their policies inflict crippling levels of

:02:51.:02:52.

debt on students. Add to that the Chancellor's plans to end housing

:02:53.:02:55.

benefit for anyone under 21. I heard speeches last week in committee and

:02:56.:02:59.

again today about how various Conservative MPs have worked their

:03:00.:03:02.

way through university, so if they did it, why shouldn't today's

:03:03.:03:07.

students? But they already do, and now some of them went even be

:03:08.:03:12.

earning the increased National Minimum Wage because they have

:03:13.:03:15.

excluded anyone under 25 from it. The impact of this policy will be to

:03:16.:03:20.

prevent young people from going to university, from learning, gaining

:03:21.:03:24.

independence, a are equipping themselves with the knowledge and

:03:25.:03:28.

skills to be successful in the jobs market and fulfilling their true

:03:29.:03:31.

potential. I want to conclude by talking about Kate Delaney, Vice

:03:32.:03:36.

President of welfare at Cardiff University. She had her ear may

:03:37.:03:39.

abolished, paid for her birthday is to get to sixth form College,

:03:40.:03:43.

qualified for a maintenance grant, and would not have been able to go

:03:44.:03:47.

to university without it. She tells me that maintenance grant gave her a

:03:48.:03:53.

voice to represent 30,000 students at Cardiff University, and the

:03:54.:04:01.

benches opposite are taking it away. I received full maintenance grant

:04:02.:04:06.

when I was at university, and the impact of that wasn't just the money

:04:07.:04:10.

in my bank account, it was also the feeling of confidence and freedom

:04:11.:04:14.

that I could choose the degree that I wanted at the University of first

:04:15.:04:20.

Choice, and I think that is a really important point that hasn't been

:04:21.:04:24.

covered in this debate. When I graduated, I didn't have ?53,000

:04:25.:04:31.

worth of debt, which is what the poorest 40% of students are going to

:04:32.:04:38.

graduate with. I remind honourable members opposite that we are talking

:04:39.:04:42.

about the poorest students from the poorest backgrounds in our country,

:04:43.:04:47.

these are the sons and daughters of my honourable friend. None

:04:48.:04:52.

mentioned, the dinner ladies, the bus tried this -- that my honourable

:04:53.:04:59.

friend for Tottenham mentioned, the bus drivers, dinner ladies. Let's

:05:00.:05:03.

not forget the reality of the background of these students. I say

:05:04.:05:08.

to the Minister and other honourable members, particularly those

:05:09.:05:11.

chuntering from seeded positions, that this is not scaremongering but

:05:12.:05:16.

a serious debate, there it goes again, this is a serious debate

:05:17.:05:20.

about what the impact of these proposals will be on the poorest

:05:21.:05:25.

constituents that we represent. That is a debate that should be taken

:05:26.:05:30.

seriously by the Minister and honourable members on the

:05:31.:05:36.

Conservative benches. This is not just about participation. This is

:05:37.:05:41.

also about fair access. This is also about which university you choose to

:05:42.:05:45.

go to, if you have that first Choice. Some of my constituents in

:05:46.:05:50.

Wolverhampton might not choose to apply for Oxford and Cambridge, or

:05:51.:05:53.

even the University of Sussex, because it is too far away and would

:05:54.:05:58.

be too expensive. So this is also about the choices that the poorest

:05:59.:06:02.

children will now have to make given the level of debt they will face. I

:06:03.:06:07.

thank the honourable ladybug giving way. She talks about the sons and

:06:08.:06:12.

daughters of those poorer professions, dinner ladies etc. Why

:06:13.:06:16.

is it the case that those people cannot take out loans, make a great

:06:17.:06:20.

success of themselves, pay them back? Why are they different? They

:06:21.:06:24.

should not be different, they are special people. These people but we

:06:25.:06:29.

represent have the same ambitions and aspirations, and the honourable

:06:30.:06:35.

members opposite should not cast aspersions about what members on

:06:36.:06:39.

this side think. They will be graduating with ?53,000 of student

:06:40.:06:47.

debt which means, and I hope they will still go to university, by the

:06:48.:06:51.

way, I hope it doesn't affect participation, but I fear that it

:06:52.:06:56.

will affect the choices that they make, and we will all be poorer for

:06:57.:07:00.

it because the talent won't come through as a result of that. I said

:07:01.:07:05.

to be honourable gentlemen, this is part of a wider pattern of this

:07:06.:07:09.

Government. Intergenerational inequality is worsening in this

:07:10.:07:16.

country. I came into politics precisely because I want to live in

:07:17.:07:19.

a country where the background and income of your parents should not

:07:20.:07:24.

determine how well you do in life, whether you fulfil your potential.

:07:25.:07:28.

But I said to be honourable gentlemen, this is getting worse,

:07:29.:07:33.

the intergenerational foundation has said that the younger generation,

:07:34.:07:36.

they call them the packhorse generation because this Government

:07:37.:07:40.

is burdening them with more and more debt, debt they are facing more in

:07:41.:07:45.

security in the workplace, they are basing higher housing costs, some

:07:46.:07:57.

have given up hope of ever owning their own home because we are not

:07:58.:08:00.

building enough homes, and that is the case for governments preceding

:08:01.:08:02.

this Government as well, to be fair. This packhorse generation is taking

:08:03.:08:05.

on huge levels of debt and facing a more insecure pewter, and that is

:08:06.:08:07.

why I would hope that the Government will think again. Intergenerational

:08:08.:08:10.

fairness and intergenerational inequality is a growing problem we

:08:11.:08:16.

face. I do understand we have an increasing burden on the current

:08:17.:08:19.

generation largely because of the enormous burden of debt the

:08:20.:08:22.

Government inherited, but does she agree with me that it is also the

:08:23.:08:30.

young people of this current generation who will not be going to

:08:31.:08:33.

university who will be otherwise expected to pay for those who had

:08:34.:08:37.

the benefit of doing so? Of course, we had that debate in the previous

:08:38.:08:40.

parliament and parliament 's previous to that. But we are talking

:08:41.:08:45.

about the very poorest students and their parents do not have a penny to

:08:46.:08:50.

give to them in support. They are going to be graduating with a huge

:08:51.:08:56.

level of debt. I said this again to the Government, what we have seen

:08:57.:09:00.

since the re-election, the election of this Tory majority Government and

:09:01.:09:04.

the Government before, is that the younger generation have been hit

:09:05.:09:09.

with firstly, for example, the removal of the education maintenance

:09:10.:09:12.

allowance, trebling of tuition fees and now, for the poorest students,

:09:13.:09:17.

no longer will they have grants. I say to the Minister, this Government

:09:18.:09:21.

needs to think really carefully about intergenerational inequality.

:09:22.:09:27.

And the social contract between young people and the state. Because

:09:28.:09:31.

if the state no longer supports the aspirations and opportunities of the

:09:32.:09:34.

poorest students, that social contract will break down and we will

:09:35.:09:40.

all be poorer for it. Madam Deputy Speaker, much of what I would have

:09:41.:09:43.

said has been covered by these benches. Taking an overview of it,

:09:44.:09:51.

it strikes me that we're going back to the 1980s, because this

:09:52.:09:59.

Government, like all Conservative governments, always pick up where

:10:00.:10:02.

they left off, so there is an agenda here and they are using the deficit

:10:03.:10:07.

as an excuse, not a reason, an excuse to take the country

:10:08.:10:10.

backwards. Much has been made in relation to the 3 million apprentice

:10:11.:10:16.

is. Not much has been said about cuts to further education today.

:10:17.:10:19.

Some further education colleges may close. So we can talk about the 3

:10:20.:10:27.

million apprenticeships that the Government talks about, you can see

:10:28.:10:30.

it is under threat because students will not be able to get those

:10:31.:10:34.

facilities that they want to get. But picking up the Minister on the

:10:35.:10:38.

point about his manifesto, he said in his manifesto, we will give them

:10:39.:10:43.

the benefit of the doubt, but what he didn't say was that there would

:10:44.:10:49.

be cuts to the grants, University grants, and they didn't said there

:10:50.:10:53.

would be cuts to bursaries, either. That is the point that ministers

:10:54.:10:57.

seemed to skate over when he made his speech. Casting our minds back

:10:58.:11:05.

ten years ago under the Labour Government we capped fees at ?3000,

:11:06.:11:11.

we reintroduced maintenance grants, and the third element was indeed

:11:12.:11:15.

bursaries from universities. Will he agreed that with this direction of

:11:16.:11:19.

travel we should look very carefully and ask the Minister to make clear

:11:20.:11:23.

that bursaries are not the next target? I agree wholeheartedly with

:11:24.:11:27.

what might honourable friend has said. We had a debate last week

:11:28.:11:31.

talking about bursaries regarding nurses. We know there is a shortage

:11:32.:11:36.

of nurses in the National Health Service. We will not do very much to

:11:37.:11:40.

encourage young people to take up the nursing profession and I think

:11:41.:11:45.

there is a danger here that we are going to create what we called the

:11:46.:11:51.

Thatcher generation, the lost generation, under this Government.

:11:52.:11:55.

Looking at the West Midlands again, this is going to affect the economy

:11:56.:11:59.

of the West Midlands, whether the Government accepts that or not, as

:12:00.:12:03.

they talk about the West Midlands powerhouse. The West Midlands

:12:04.:12:07.

powerhouse will rely on skilled Labour, highly skilled Labour. The

:12:08.:12:10.

Government has boasted about Jaguar Land Rover as one of the successes

:12:11.:12:15.

of this Government. I seem to remember that it was a Labour

:12:16.:12:24.

Government that encouraged Tater to invest in Land Rover. When you start

:12:25.:12:29.

to look at the impact of these measures of this Government you can

:12:30.:12:34.

see a lost generation but more importantly longer term it will

:12:35.:12:38.

affect the British economy. I will not give way. I see a situation

:12:39.:12:49.

where you ration education. In 1997 we had to put that right. I

:12:50.:12:56.

represent two of the finest universities in this country, if not

:12:57.:13:02.

the world, worldwide renown. That can have an impact locally and

:13:03.:13:06.

particularly in this country in taking students and encouraging

:13:07.:13:10.

students to study the different disciplines. Coming back to further

:13:11.:13:15.

education, this will have a major impact on further education and will

:13:16.:13:19.

certainly affect Coventry's economy, more importantly be West Midlands

:13:20.:13:23.

economy and more importantly the national economy. It says it all

:13:24.:13:30.

about the policy of the Government we are debating this afternoon that

:13:31.:13:33.

so few of their backbenchers have turned up to read the poor script

:13:34.:13:38.

they have been given by the whips. It says everything about the way

:13:39.:13:41.

this Government conducts itself that instead of having a proper debate on

:13:42.:13:44.

the floor of this House with a full vote involving all members, they

:13:45.:13:48.

sought to have a debate down the corridor and up the stairs, hoping

:13:49.:13:51.

nobody would notice, in a committee nobody has ever heard of. I think he

:13:52.:13:59.

made a similar point when he had his adjournment debate a number of weeks

:14:00.:14:03.

ago with student nurses' bursaries. Is he as concerned as I am that this

:14:04.:14:08.

is becoming a device for the Government to speak through

:14:09.:14:11.

controversial legislation without debate, and that it goes in contrast

:14:12.:14:15.

to comments made by the Leader of the House on December ten 2015 on

:14:16.:14:18.

this issue when he indicated there would be a debate on the floor of

:14:19.:14:23.

this House? I wholeheartedly agree, their cowardice is treating this

:14:24.:14:27.

House with disdain, and the students we are sent here to represent. In

:14:28.:14:31.

spite of what the Minister said, there is no mention in the manifesto

:14:32.:14:35.

of cutting student grants. In fact, we would find Lord Lucan before we

:14:36.:14:39.

fight any reference to cutting student grants in their manifesto.

:14:40.:14:47.

They cannot even hide behind any sort of democratic mandate. In spite

:14:48.:14:50.

of the argument I had with previous Labour governments as a student,

:14:51.:14:55.

including my right honourable friend the member the problem, even with

:14:56.:14:57.

landslide majorities there was always a full debate and always a

:14:58.:15:03.

vote in this House when they were abolishing student grants or, more

:15:04.:15:08.

wisely, reintroducing grants towards the end after the introduction of

:15:09.:15:13.

top-up fees. But the fact is this afternoon half a million students

:15:14.:15:16.

from the poorest backgrounds will be in practice upon by these proposals.

:15:17.:15:21.

At my local university, the University of East London, it

:15:22.:15:25.

equates to around ?30 million of financial support for students gone.

:15:26.:15:29.

At my mater, the University of Kaymer it, more like 9 million. One

:15:30.:15:33.

thing we know about the higher education sector is not only is

:15:34.:15:38.

opportunity unevenly distributed but so is financial support and it is

:15:39.:15:41.

unfair that students from poorer backgrounds will pave a postcode

:15:42.:15:44.

lottery when it comes to determine how much nonrepayable support they

:15:45.:15:50.

receive. The very existence of student grants was one as a result

:15:51.:15:54.

of hard-fought negotiations not just on behalf of student leaders who

:15:55.:15:58.

argued that if we were going to ask people to make a greater

:15:59.:16:01.

contribution it was only fair that the poorest should receive a

:16:02.:16:06.

nonrepayable contribution, but how must those Conservative members and

:16:07.:16:09.

a few remaining Liberal Democrat MPs feel about the fact that even under

:16:10.:16:14.

the coalition Government, as the higher education Minister justified

:16:15.:16:16.

the coupling of these, they were told not to worry because we have

:16:17.:16:19.

the national scholarship programme, the student grant, and

:16:20.:16:45.

the threshold of 21,000 going up by information? What has happened

:16:46.:16:46.

since? The scholarship programme abandoned, the threshold frozen at

:16:47.:16:48.

?21,000, and now we see the abolition of student grants. You

:16:49.:16:51.

cannot trust a word that these people say, particularly when it

:16:52.:16:53.

comes to fair access to higher education for the most is an

:16:54.:16:55.

absolute disgrace. I'm proud of what the it is an absolute disgrace. I'm

:16:56.:16:58.

proud of what the last Labour a beneficiary of it, from the work

:16:59.:17:00.

done in schools to the opportunities of expanded places to widen the

:17:01.:17:02.

opportunities for people from working class background, and I was

:17:03.:17:05.

a beneficiary of it, from the work done in schools to the opportunities

:17:06.:17:13.

of expanded would he accept that he and others who said five years ago

:17:14.:17:16.

that the introduction of increased bees would lead to a reduction in

:17:17.:17:21.

those from poorer backgrounds going to university were wrong? They were

:17:22.:17:26.

wrong then and we he is doubtless equally proud of the fact the Labour

:17:27.:17:29.

Government said it wouldn't introduce tuition fees then did,

:17:30.:17:31.

said it wouldn't introduce tuition fees then did. Would he accept that

:17:32.:17:33.

he and others who said five years ago that the introduction of

:17:34.:17:36.

increased bees would lead to a reduction in those from poorer

:17:37.:17:38.

backgrounds going to university were wrong? They were wrong then and we

:17:39.:17:46.

believe they are wrong so much has been talked about this afternoon in

:17:47.:17:50.

terms of participation numbers, I'm certainly not going to make

:17:51.:17:54.

prophecies of doom about what will happen to participation, but there

:17:55.:17:58.

are a few facts to back in mind. Firstly, the issue of equity, how

:17:59.:18:02.

can it be justified that students from the poorest background graduate

:18:03.:18:07.

with the largest debt? How can it be fair but under this repayment

:18:08.:18:10.

mechanism the wealthiest graduates will go on to the most successful

:18:11.:18:14.

jobs but pay less over the course of their working career than people

:18:15.:18:18.

from middle and lower incomes? That cannot be justified as fair. And we

:18:19.:18:24.

should take seriously the evidence from the Institute for Fiscal

:18:25.:18:27.

Studies in 2014 that a ?1000 increase in the maintenance grant

:18:28.:18:32.

led to a 3.95% increase in participation. Removing the grant

:18:33.:18:35.

does not mean participation will plummet, but I think there is a risk

:18:36.:18:40.

that participation will suffer, and there is a huge amount of

:18:41.:18:43.

complacency from this Government about the impact of higher tuition

:18:44.:18:47.

fees on applications to part-time route and from the chore

:18:48.:18:50.

backgrounds, too. It doesn't have to be this way. The pet what the Labour

:18:51.:18:56.

Government in Wales has done, they haven't chosen to abolish student

:18:57.:18:59.

grants, they have kept them in place. If they want to talk about

:19:00.:19:03.

hard choices, then how they are going to let the poorest students --

:19:04.:19:09.

look the poorest students in the eye and explain how the Government

:19:10.:19:12.

believe EA to the tax burden on the wealthiest while making the poorest

:19:13.:19:17.

paid the cost of their education? A 75% contribution to the cost of

:19:18.:19:22.

higher education is too far and there is not a single point in their

:19:23.:19:26.

manifesto that they can point to to justify this outrageous attack on

:19:27.:19:30.

the poorest students. We have still got five members who want to catch

:19:31.:19:34.

my eye. Take no interventions and we will get everybody in. With

:19:35.:19:37.

interventions we will have to drop people off the list. Thank you. I

:19:38.:19:44.

would like to thank the Labour members for bringing this debate.

:19:45.:19:49.

The SNP believes in the principle of free education and stand against in

:19:50.:19:52.

solidarity with student in England the principle of scrapping grants. I

:19:53.:19:58.

was going to say more but I will keep it as brief as I can. I want to

:19:59.:20:05.

mention myself, other members have mentioned their situation as MPs. My

:20:06.:20:09.

situation, I moved away from home in 2000 to go to the University of

:20:10.:20:14.

Aberdeen, graduated in 2004 having taken out a student loan. I only

:20:15.:20:18.

started paying back to anything other did decree on coming into this

:20:19.:20:23.

place in May. I pay back ?400 a month on my student loan, that is my

:20:24.:20:27.

obligation that I do that. But if I was coming out with a debt of

:20:28.:20:33.

?53,000 from university, assuming I could start paying that back right

:20:34.:20:38.

away at ?400 a month, it would take me 11 years. It would take 11 years

:20:39.:20:43.

in a very well paying job to pay that back. The expectation some

:20:44.:20:47.

people may not pay that loan debt back at all makes a mockery of the

:20:48.:20:51.

process, if you are not even expected to pay yet back what is the

:20:52.:20:54.

point of getting the loan in the first base? It is ludicrous!

:20:55.:20:59.

Bringing up a generation that expects to be in debt, anything that

:21:00.:21:04.

we should guard against in society. In Scotland we try our hardest try

:21:05.:21:10.

and make sure that education remains free and grants are available but

:21:11.:21:14.

this Government is putting our budget under increasing pressure by

:21:15.:21:18.

the actions it is taking here. We don't know, because they haven't

:21:19.:21:22.

told us, what the impact on the Scottish budget will be from the

:21:23.:21:26.

decisions taken here today, it has been designated as EVEL but will

:21:27.:21:37.

clearly impact students studying in Scotland. What consultation has

:21:38.:21:46.

there been with higher education in my constituency? But conversations

:21:47.:21:53.

has he had... He's not even paying attention, he is chewing his pen!

:21:54.:21:57.

What conversations had he had with my colleagues in Scotland about

:21:58.:22:02.

this? What impact will it have on people in larger families, and

:22:03.:22:06.

Muslim students? The honourable member raised this before about

:22:07.:22:09.

Muslim students who cannot take out loans. Other people will not want to

:22:10.:22:14.

take out loans for other reasons. My colleague has raised cuts to the

:22:15.:22:17.

disabled student allowance. What impact will this added burden have

:22:18.:22:22.

on them as well? Members on the other side have talked about, what

:22:23.:22:26.

about people but don't go to university, how do they benefit from

:22:27.:22:31.

this? They benefit from the common good. Glasgow Caledonian University

:22:32.:22:36.

is a university for the common good. People in Scotland know that the

:22:37.:22:38.

graduates will become the doctors who treat them in hospital, the Lord

:22:39.:22:43.

Attenborough present them, the qualified people who pay back in

:22:44.:22:48.

taxation -- the lawyers who represent them. I'm grateful to be

:22:49.:22:54.

able to speak in this debate today, and have been urged to do so by many

:22:55.:22:59.

student in my constituency. It is a matter of great interest to the

:23:00.:23:02.

general public and the Government's behaviour over this issue has been

:23:03.:23:06.

noticed by them even if this Government remains in denial. The

:23:07.:23:10.

fact remains that the Chancellor's change from maintenance grants to a

:23:11.:23:14.

loan may dissuade students from modest backgrounds from going to

:23:15.:23:18.

university, that is a fact, and it may nonetheless result in large sums

:23:19.:23:20.

never being paid back to the treachery, which

:23:21.:23:37.

hasn't been addressed. Many members have raised that issue, and it has

:23:38.:23:40.

not been addressed, that a lot of this money will not go back to the

:23:41.:23:42.

Treasury because of graduates going into what the Prime Minister

:23:43.:23:44.

referred to last week as menial Labour jobs. Even with maintenance

:23:45.:23:46.

grants which supports students from the poorest backgrounds through

:23:47.:23:48.

university, the system remains stacked against working-class

:23:49.:23:49.

students. Students from wealthy backgrounds, according to the

:23:50.:23:54.

education charity do Sutton Trust, are ten times more likely to receive

:23:55.:23:57.

a place at university than those from poorer backgrounds. The

:23:58.:24:05.

Government has consulted on freezing the current student loan repayment

:24:06.:24:12.

threshold at ?21,000 for five years. Martin Lewis from Money-saving

:24:13.:24:17.

Expert has pointed out only 5% of responses to the consultation were

:24:18.:24:21.

in favour, with 84% being against, and has written to the Prime

:24:22.:24:25.

Minister to ask why the Government has pushed ahead regardless with

:24:26.:24:28.

increasing the amount our students have to pay on their current student

:24:29.:24:34.

loans. Martin Lewis was, in 2011, appointed head of the independent

:24:35.:24:38.

gas pours on student finance information. Government ministers

:24:39.:24:40.

told him unambiguously that from April 2017

:24:41.:24:58.

the ?21,000 repayment threshold would rise annually with average

:24:59.:25:00.

earnings, and the decision to backtrack on this is hugely

:25:01.:25:02.

damaging. It means many lower and middle earning graduates will pay

:25:03.:25:05.

thousands more over the life of their loans. Martin Lewis states

:25:06.:25:07.

this issue is as much moral as legal. This retrospective change

:25:08.:25:09.

destroys trust in the student finance system and, perhaps more

:25:10.:25:11.

widely, in the political system as a whole. This Government seems

:25:12.:25:16.

remarkably relaxed about our poorest students graduating with ?53,000 of

:25:17.:25:21.

debt before they have even started work. What guarantee will they give

:25:22.:25:25.

that they would move the goalposts Bob repayment of this loan as well?

:25:26.:25:30.

There is a huge body of evidence to support student maintenance grants,

:25:31.:25:35.

I don't have time to go into them all but the universities and

:25:36.:25:37.

colleges union are against them, they said they are crucial for

:25:38.:25:45.

engaging students from poorer backgrounds who are already daunted

:25:46.:25:49.

by the cripplingly high debt. They said that getting rid of it will be

:25:50.:25:56.

a disincentive to participation. I too have a constituency with the

:25:57.:26:03.

large and above students, just over 19,000 from the three fantastic

:26:04.:26:09.

universities in Leeds. I have three minutes to speak, which equates to

:26:10.:26:16.

0.0095 per second per student in what is a hugely important debate.

:26:17.:26:20.

The fact that the Government have proceeded with this, considering the

:26:21.:26:24.

importance, three second legislation without any proper debate is an

:26:25.:26:31.

absolute disgrace. Why have we also not had public consultation on these

:26:32.:26:37.

major changes? They were announced in summer, there has been six months

:26:38.:26:42.

since then and no consultation with the higher education sector, no

:26:43.:26:48.

consultation with universities, no consultation with student unions. It

:26:49.:26:52.

is also hugely concerning that the Government only conducted the

:26:53.:26:56.

quality impact assessment after the National union of students issued

:26:57.:27:00.

legal proceedings. If that is not suggesting a Government that knows

:27:01.:27:03.

it is doing something unacceptable and have something to hide, I don't

:27:04.:27:08.

know what does. The quality impact assessment itself explicitly says

:27:09.:27:12.

that the changes present a risk to the participation of students from

:27:13.:27:17.

poorer backgrounds, mature students, BME students, disabled students and

:27:18.:27:21.

Muslim students. Despite being forced to accept these groups will

:27:22.:27:26.

be affected, has the Minister done anything to deal with that and

:27:27.:27:31.

indeed to suggest mitigating the impact? The answer to that, I'm

:27:32.:27:36.

afraid, is no. I haven't got time to go through the facts, and some have

:27:37.:27:41.

gone forward today, some haven't, but this clearly will have a

:27:42.:27:46.

detrimental and unfair impact on students from poorer backgrounds,

:27:47.:27:51.

students that clearly we all want to encourage to go to university. And

:27:52.:27:56.

at the same time as this is happening the Government is also

:27:57.:28:01.

freezing the repayment threshold at 21,000, which the House of Commons

:28:02.:28:05.

library say what have, I quote, a proportionally larger impact on

:28:06.:28:10.

repayments by graduates with lower lifetime earnings. Martin Lewis has

:28:11.:28:16.

already been mentioned, he of course was tasked with selling the new

:28:17.:28:20.

system to the public, and he himself is looking into the judicial review

:28:21.:28:25.

into the repayment threshold being frozen. You can scarcely make it up.

:28:26.:28:31.

The reality, whether they wish to accept it or not, is that the

:28:32.:28:35.

evidence shows that this will hit students on lower incomes and will

:28:36.:28:38.

discourage people from going to university. The Government must now

:28:39.:28:42.

today announced a proper debate, a proper vote on this, in the House.

:28:43.:28:44.

We will settle for nothing less. I went to Aberdeen University in

:28:45.:28:55.

1977. First member of my extended family to do so and I was able to do

:28:56.:28:59.

so because Jewish and was free and I got a full maintenance grant. If it

:29:00.:29:05.

wasn't for the Wilson government, and would not have had the

:29:06.:29:12.

opportunity I had in my life. What really sticks in my throat is that

:29:13.:29:16.

those who have climbed that ladder of opportunity themselves are now

:29:17.:29:22.

determined to kick it away. I think it is a disgrace. We should be in no

:29:23.:29:27.

doubt that there would be layers of consequences to these decisions. On

:29:28.:29:31.

an individual level, it will result in a life less fulfilled,

:29:32.:29:36.

opportunities foregone. On a community level, people say a

:29:37.:29:45.

pathway of poverty -- out of poverty is being barricaded in front of

:29:46.:29:54.

them. On a national level, how many doctors, architects, lawyers are we

:29:55.:30:04.

going to see -- not going to see emerge because of this? The real

:30:05.:30:14.

question is this, is it fair if somebody from a poor background

:30:15.:30:21.

should have to take out more debt to get the same opportunities that

:30:22.:30:23.

their counterpart in well off families? We should not tolerate

:30:24.:30:32.

this. The government seems to labour under the misapprehension that

:30:33.:30:34.

students are all rich and will benefit so much it is OK to charge

:30:35.:30:37.

what they want. That is not the case. A small minority do extremely

:30:38.:30:44.

well and become rich. And if you want them to pay, you should have a

:30:45.:30:49.

progressive taxation system where people pay more when they reach

:30:50.:30:55.

those high wages but instead, this government is cutting taxes for the

:30:56.:30:58.

highest earners in our community. And nowhere is this more thrown into

:30:59.:31:04.

sharp relief than with nurses and midwives. The abolition of grants

:31:05.:31:09.

for nurses and midwives there is going to penalised not just people

:31:10.:31:12.

who want to contribute to our NHS, it will undermine our NHS itself.

:31:13.:31:19.

Not for the first time, I am so pleased that in Scotland we have the

:31:20.:31:23.

Scottish Government which stands between the young people in that

:31:24.:31:28.

country and the malcontent of this government. We will not be

:31:29.:31:33.

abolishing grants for nurses or midwives, we will maintain

:31:34.:31:37.

maintenance grants and most of all we will keep tuition free and we

:31:38.:31:43.

will make sure we will not stand as things are in this country. If ever

:31:44.:31:47.

there was a case for this not applying, it is in this debate. I

:31:48.:31:57.

have 2000 consist ruins,... And all my election in May, I had spent all

:31:58.:32:02.

my adult life in universities, from recipient of a full grant to

:32:03.:32:09.

teaching at Kingston until my election. I have also taught at

:32:10.:32:15.

redbrick. All of these categories of university, all seats of learning in

:32:16.:32:19.

this country, student bodies will be poorer as a result of the abolition

:32:20.:32:24.

of grants. Both socially, culturally and financially. The students we are

:32:25.:32:36.

talking about are not meal from the Young ones, they are people like my

:32:37.:32:46.

constituents, student union president Josh got art, who told me

:32:47.:32:51.

he is the first person in his family to go to university. He would not

:32:52.:32:54.

have done this without a maintenance grant. He wants to see that the

:32:55.:33:00.

students of the future all have the chance to spoke to university. It is

:33:01.:33:05.

not just the NUS, it is also the Sutton Trust who have condemned

:33:06.:33:10.

these changes for narrowing the talent pool of who was going to be

:33:11.:33:14.

able to participate from higher education in the future. I think the

:33:15.:33:22.

students I taught at Kingston before the changes, they seem to often be

:33:23.:33:25.

coming in between their burger shifting Amax flipping shifts. How

:33:26.:33:35.

is saddling young people with ?53,000 of debt, had they reconcile

:33:36.:33:43.

with that? We heard the words of Martin Lewis who was tasked with

:33:44.:33:51.

leading the task force in 2011, he says the regulator would not allow

:33:52.:33:54.

any commercial lender to make a change to its terms in this way. It

:33:55.:34:00.

is surely bad governments. It is a case of double standards here. These

:34:01.:34:04.

are people who signed up, even after they signed the loan agreement, they

:34:05.:34:10.

are seeing the goalposts move. There is a lot of explaining to do by the

:34:11.:34:16.

Minister. Where was this on page 35? What will be transitional

:34:17.:34:20.

arrangements Pete? What happened to the review promised in 2014 for

:34:21.:34:24.

Muslim students who want Cheri compliant finance? -- Cheri. It is

:34:25.:34:34.

only because our side has forced this debate that we are discussing

:34:35.:34:38.

it at all. They wanted to shunt it through their new favourite toy, the

:34:39.:34:44.

statutory instrument. It shouldn't be students plugging... The nurses,

:34:45.:34:54.

NHS bursary is, the removal of TMA, if they are making a shortfall, it

:34:55.:34:58.

should not be students who take that burden. We have had a lively debate

:34:59.:35:07.

with contributions from 17 backbench speakers to my calculation and it

:35:08.:35:13.

has been extremely interesting. I went mentioned them because time is

:35:14.:35:20.

short. I do have some sympathy for the universities minister in all of

:35:21.:35:24.

this. We all know that the decision to scrap maintenance runs for the

:35:25.:35:29.

less well-off students in favour of loans was made by the Chancellor,

:35:30.:35:35.

not by the universities minister. I know he and the Chancellor are old

:35:36.:35:39.

friends, it goes back to the days when they were penniless students

:35:40.:35:43.

together. Having to scrape by on the student grants and Omega Bullington

:35:44.:35:51.

club dinners but I find it hard to believe that the universities

:35:52.:35:54.

minister went to his old friend the Chancellor and said having been

:35:55.:35:58.

appointed as universities minister, I have suddenly decided that we were

:35:59.:36:02.

wrong to have maintenance grants for less well-off students and it would

:36:03.:36:06.

be a great idea for the worse of students to have to have the most

:36:07.:36:10.

debt after they have been in university. I may be wrong about him

:36:11.:36:14.

but he doesn't seem to strike me up until today as a kind of person who

:36:15.:36:18.

would really think that it is right to change the system so that as the

:36:19.:36:24.

British Medical Association points out, medical students from the

:36:25.:36:28.

poorest backgrounds could graduate with ?100,000 of debt. It doesn't

:36:29.:36:39.

really strike me either that he is the kind of person who thinks it is

:36:40.:36:44.

OK to go back on promises made by Tory ministers when the new system

:36:45.:36:47.

was introduced because it was David Willetts who said that the tuition

:36:48.:36:54.

fees increase was progressive when they introduced this proposal

:36:55.:36:58.

precisely because of the higher education maintenance grant. That

:36:59.:37:01.

was the argument that was made and neither does he strike me as the

:37:02.:37:04.

kind of politician who would cynically pursue policies which

:37:05.:37:09.

penalised younger people who are less likely to vote Tory or even

:37:10.:37:13.

less likely to vote at all than others. And despite what he said

:37:14.:37:19.

today about page 35 of the Tory party manifesto, I don't think the

:37:20.:37:22.

universities minister would think it is OK really to carry out this kind

:37:23.:37:27.

of major change of policy direction without explicitly putting it into

:37:28.:37:34.

your party's manifesto so that the public including young people could

:37:35.:37:37.

see what they are voting for or against. Is he really the kind of

:37:38.:37:42.

politician who having done all this would then slink away from debating

:37:43.:37:48.

such a major change openly and properly on the floor of the House

:37:49.:37:52.

of Commons in government time? I may be wrong but I never thought he was

:37:53.:37:56.

that kind of politician. I never thought he was that cynical. I never

:37:57.:38:03.

thought -- think we know we know someone who is that cynical. I give

:38:04.:38:10.

way. I wonder whether he could flip back through his archive and find

:38:11.:38:16.

where in the 1997 manifesto Labour Party had the introduction of

:38:17.:38:19.

student loans in the first place because I can't remember seeing it.

:38:20.:38:25.

He told us how hard he worked himself in his speech and his

:38:26.:38:28.

contribution to the debate and as someone from Cardiff with an accent

:38:29.:38:36.

like he has, he acknowledges the hard-working individual. He knows

:38:37.:38:39.

the general election was fought following that decision being taken

:38:40.:38:43.

and before they were introduced. We all know the Chancellor prefers

:38:44.:38:48.

governing from the shadows and his shameless betrayal of previous

:38:49.:38:51.

promises and the shabby men manner in which this has been handled,

:38:52.:38:59.

Basil the hallmarks of the current Chancellor of the Exchequer. --

:39:00.:39:07.

bears all the hallmarks. The Chancellor is introducing an

:39:08.:39:10.

opportunity tax. His proposals are an insult on aspiration, an assault

:39:11.:39:15.

on opportunity and those who want to get on in life which is why we

:39:16.:39:21.

oppose them and also why the Welsh government under Labour First

:39:22.:39:24.

Minister is keeping maintenance grants. By the way, for those who

:39:25.:39:32.

say that this only affects England, they should think again. Including

:39:33.:39:38.

Welsh Conservative MPs. There are nearly 9000 English students

:39:39.:39:42.

studying at Cardiff University. Out of 30,000 students. I am sure the

:39:43.:39:50.

shadow minister wouldn't wish to mislead the House. He just said that

:39:51.:39:54.

after the 1997 election tuition fees were not introduced until they had

:39:55.:39:58.

been another general election. It is not true, they were introduced in

:39:59.:40:03.

1998. Having said they wouldn't, they started on the process 12 weeks

:40:04.:40:10.

later. The honourable gentleman is making a point of debate, not a

:40:11.:40:13.

point for the chair. We have very little time. Students who in

:40:14.:40:24.

constituencies like Cardiff North are registered to vote in Wales but

:40:25.:40:30.

subject to the decisions after this debate, even though there local

:40:31.:40:38.

Welsh MPs can have their votes nullified under the evil procedure

:40:39.:40:42.

the government has foisted upon this House. Who will be affected by these

:40:43.:40:46.

measures today? Festival, we know that from the IFF S, the poorest 40%

:40:47.:40:55.

of students going to university in England when I graduate with debts

:40:56.:40:59.

of up to ?53,000 from a three-year course rather than up to 40,000

:41:00.:41:07.

pounds. This will result from the replacement of maintenance grants.

:41:08.:41:10.

It is not just students going to university in England, it is also

:41:11.:41:14.

students attending universities and registered to vote in Wales. A fact

:41:15.:41:17.

that would be lost to those students in Cardiff for all stop -- Cardiff

:41:18.:41:33.

North. I would be very encouraged if the honourable gentleman would note

:41:34.:41:44.

that there are hundreds of students from Northern Ireland who take up

:41:45.:41:49.

places and are happy to do so in English universities and it is an

:41:50.:41:53.

absolute disgrace that this measure should be deemed exclusively English

:41:54.:41:56.

because it affects my constituents and many parents and students from

:41:57.:42:01.

Northern Ireland. I am happy to acknowledge that. It is not as if

:42:02.:42:06.

this policy will save that much of finances despite claims by the

:42:07.:42:12.

government in the long run. The replacement of maintenance grants by

:42:13.:42:18.

loans will raise debt, according to the IFF S, but will do little to

:42:19.:42:25.

improve government finances in the long run. The truth is the

:42:26.:42:29.

Chancellor is fixing the figures, not the roof. I am sure I would

:42:30.:42:33.

never have gone to university myself had there been no maintenance grant

:42:34.:42:37.

available, let alone being the first of my family and from icon Prince of

:42:38.:42:42.

school to go to university and to go to Oxford. I know there are many in

:42:43.:42:47.

this place for who this is also true. The government must accept

:42:48.:42:53.

that is still the case for many thousands of people, indeed that is

:42:54.:42:57.

why as David Willetts said, maintenance grants were part of the

:42:58.:43:02.

structure when fees were tripled to ?9,000 per annum and the last Tory

:43:03.:43:08.

lead government. This decision is mean in spirit, underhand in its

:43:09.:43:15.

execution and it will be tragic in its consequences for many young

:43:16.:43:18.

people and I urge the House to reject it by supporting our motion.

:43:19.:43:25.

Madam Deputy Speaker, a middle-aged man like me needs to approach the

:43:26.:43:31.

subject of student finance with a degree of humility, for I was one of

:43:32.:43:35.

the lucky few who did not have to pay tuition fees. While I did not

:43:36.:43:39.

qualify for anything more than the minimum grant, many of my

:43:40.:43:43.

contemporaries did. But the key fact about university when I was growing

:43:44.:43:48.

up was it was just that, the exclusive preserve of the lucky few.

:43:49.:43:53.

Universities were bastions of privilege, and the nation was poorer

:43:54.:43:58.

for it. As were millions of people whose lives would have been enriched

:43:59.:44:01.

in every sense by a university course. It was Tony Blair, of

:44:02.:44:09.

course, remember him? He first recognised that many more people

:44:10.:44:14.

could benefit from a university education and started us down the

:44:15.:44:19.

road of reforming student finance to widen participation. And it was

:44:20.:44:25.

Gordon Brown, remember him, who asked the noble Lord Browne to

:44:26.:44:30.

suggest further reforms of student finance. And it was Vince cable and

:44:31.:44:35.

the right honourable friend the Sheffield Hallam who bravely impaled

:44:36.:44:40.

themselves and their party in an irresponsible campaign and brought

:44:41.:44:45.

in the system of tuition fees that we had today. At every stage in this

:44:46.:44:51.

journey towards a student finance system that allows anyone with the

:44:52.:44:56.

necessary grades to be offered a university place, we have heard the

:44:57.:45:01.

same howls of outrage, the same predictions of disaster from the

:45:02.:45:05.

same sources. Participation will plummet, they in tone. The poorest

:45:06.:45:11.

will be put off. And just as predictably, at each and every

:45:12.:45:15.

stage, these shroud waivers and doom mongers have been proved wrong, as

:45:16.:45:19.

might honourable friend the South Ribble reminded us. And why have

:45:20.:45:26.

they been proven wrong? Because, as my honourable friend pointed out,

:45:27.:45:29.

individual students observe the benefits that blow to university

:45:30.:45:34.

graduates, look at the repayment terms for student loans and

:45:35.:45:37.

calculate, quite correctly, that they will only have to repay their

:45:38.:45:42.

student loans if they themselves are benefiting from higher wages. My

:45:43.:45:48.

honourable friend for Bexhill said the loans he took out were the best

:45:49.:45:53.

investment he has ever made. My honourable friend for Halesowen

:45:54.:45:57.

talked about the returns to higher education which, interestingly, are

:45:58.:46:01.

even higher in terms of the increase in lifetime earnings for women than

:46:02.:46:06.

for men. So the truth is that student loans are not like ordinary

:46:07.:46:11.

commercial loans, and it is frankly a disgrace that members opposite are

:46:12.:46:17.

willing to mislead would-be students by pretending that they are. A

:46:18.:46:24.

commercial loan is often secured against specific assets which can be

:46:25.:46:28.

seized if you cannot make the repayments. With a student loan, no

:46:29.:46:32.

bailiff is going to knock on your door and take a television if you're

:46:33.:46:36.

low income means you cannot afford to repay it. A commercial loan will

:46:37.:46:41.

charge a rate of interest from the very first day and the poorer you

:46:42.:46:45.

are the higher the interest rate is likely to be. With a student loan

:46:46.:46:49.

the interest rate is held at a lower rate until you start earning over

:46:50.:46:55.

?25,000 a year. The amount you have to repay in any year is limited to

:46:56.:47:03.

9% of your income over ?21,000. A commercial zone, and all of the

:47:04.:47:08.

accumulated interest, will still be hanging around your neck in 40

:47:09.:47:11.

years' time if you have not managed to pay it off. The balance of a

:47:12.:47:15.

student loan is written off after 30 years. Madam Deputy Speaker, there

:47:16.:47:24.

are two ways to fund university students. You can limit access,

:47:25.:47:30.

undermine the quality of University teaching, and get the general

:47:31.:47:35.

population, most of whom have not benefited from a university

:47:36.:47:39.

education, to foot the bill. You can call it the SNP approach. The

:47:40.:47:45.

alternative is to offer anyone who has the capacity to benefit from a

:47:46.:47:50.

university course the opportunity to do so, and to put in place a system

:47:51.:47:55.

of subsidised student finance which asks those who do go on to benefit

:47:56.:48:00.

to contribute to its cost while protecting those who do not from the

:48:01.:48:07.

need to repay their loans. That is the Conservative approach. It is

:48:08.:48:10.

also the approach of the Liberal Democrats when they were a party of

:48:11.:48:15.

Government. And the approach of the Labour Government under Tony Blair

:48:16.:48:22.

and Gordon Brown. So, Madam Deputy Speaker, one thing is clear at the

:48:23.:48:27.

end of this debate, a party's attitude toward student finance is a

:48:28.:48:32.

leading indicator of its fitness to govern. In opposition, a party will

:48:33.:48:38.

take the irresponsible brute in an attempt to curry favour with the

:48:39.:48:47.

National union of students. In Government, it will suddenly

:48:48.:48:56.

discover... It will suddenly discovered the merits of a

:48:57.:48:59.

sustainable system of student finance that is fair to students and

:49:00.:49:07.

taxpayers alike. Madam Deputy Speaker, if we are ever to see

:49:08.:49:11.

another Labour Government, and on the basis of their current

:49:12.:49:15.

performance it may be a very long time, I confidently predict that it

:49:16.:49:19.

will quietly drop its opposition to the system of student finance, put

:49:20.:49:23.

in place by governments of all parties over 20 years, and that is

:49:24.:49:33.

why... Order, Sir! The Minister called a national organisation voted

:49:34.:49:40.

for by the students of this company, should he withdraw his comments

:49:41.:49:46.

immediately? The honourable gentleman's language was perhaps not

:49:47.:49:49.

exactly what I would have chosen myself as a matter of taste will

:49:50.:49:55.

stop but it is not for me to tell the Minister exactly which words to

:49:56.:50:02.

use. He was not strictly outwith the rules of the House and I'm sure he

:50:03.:50:08.

will now very positively returned to a more tasteful and moderate

:50:09.:50:19.

language. Minister. I feel that was perhaps a little more stinking than

:50:20.:50:26.

I deserved, but I will of course do exactly as you require -- a little

:50:27.:50:32.

more spending. If I may briefly reprise, a party's attitude to

:50:33.:50:35.

student finance is a leading indicator of its fitness to govern.

:50:36.:50:41.

If we are ever to see another Labour Government confidently predict it

:50:42.:50:47.

will drop its obligation to the system of student finance put in

:50:48.:50:51.

place by Labour Government, coalition Government and this

:50:52.:50:53.

Conservative Government and that is why I urge the House to reject the

:50:54.:50:59.

motion. The question is as on the order paper. As many as are of the

:51:00.:51:03.

opinion, say, "aye". To the contrary, "no". Division! Clear the

:51:04.:51:08.

lobby! Border! As many as are of the

:51:09.:53:44.

opinion, say, "aye". To the contrary, "no". Tellers for the

:53:45.:53:58.

ayes, tellers for the noes. Order. Order. The ayes to the right,

:53:59.:04:40.

292. The to the left, 306. -- the noes to the left. The ayes to the

:04:41.:04:53.

right, 292. The noes to the left, 306. The noes have it. The attempt

:04:54.:05:04.

to have it. Unlike! -- the noes have it. We come now to the motion

:05:05.:05:08.

against the education student support Amendment regulations.

:05:09.:05:15.

Order. Student support Amendment regulations. SI 2015, number 1591,

:05:16.:05:25.

which will be taken without debate. I remind the House that is Mr

:05:26.:05:31.

Speaker has certified, this instrument relates exclusively to

:05:32.:05:35.

England and is within devolved legislative competence this motion

:05:36.:05:42.

is a subject to double majority. If a division is called all members of

:05:43.:05:48.

the House are able to vote in the division. Understanding order number

:05:49.:05:58.

83 Q, to annul the SI will be agreed only if of those voting both a

:05:59.:06:07.

majority of all members and a majority of members representing

:06:08.:06:10.

constituencies in England called in support of the motion. At the end of

:06:11.:06:16.

the tellers will report the results. First for the members, secondly for

:06:17.:06:28.

those representing constituencies in England. I think that is clear...

:06:29.:06:38.

The instruction is clear. Actually, members don't really have to do any

:06:39.:06:43.

thinking except to decide whether to vote with the ayes or the noes and

:06:44.:06:47.

everyone can pass through the lobbies. Member to move the motion

:06:48.:07:03.

formerly. Mr Morriston. The question is on the order paper. As many as of

:07:04.:07:09.

that opinion, say aye. Of the contrary know. Davison! -- division.

:07:10.:10:04.

Order. The question is as on the order paper. As many of that opinion

:10:05.:10:15.

say aye. On the contrary, no. Tell us for the noes and the ayes. --

:10:16.:10:22.

tellers. The ayes to the right, 292. The noes

:10:23.:24:25.

to the left, 303. Of those honourable members representing

:24:26.:24:30.

constituencies in England, the ayes to the right, 203, the noes to the

:24:31.:24:40.

left, 291. The ayes to the right, 292. The noes

:24:41.:24:54.

to the left, 303. Of those honourable members representing

:24:55.:24:57.

constituencies in England, the ayes to the right, 203, the noes to the

:24:58.:25:10.

left, 291. On both counts, the noes have it, the noes have it. Unlock!

:25:11.:25:20.

Point of order. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. People have called

:25:21.:25:27.

the debates held in this House on this measure and the Leader of the

:25:28.:25:31.

House made several attempts to explain it to members but what was

:25:32.:25:35.

said by the Government is that nothing could pass against the will

:25:36.:25:39.

of the House. All of this procedure was about making sure that nothing

:25:40.:25:43.

was imposed on English members against their will. But we have just

:25:44.:25:48.

had an illustration of a vote which could have enacted an order against

:25:49.:25:53.

the will of the House will stop the majority was only 11, if the

:25:54.:25:57.

majority had been in the other direction and a house had voted as a

:25:58.:26:01.

whole to know the order the English members had voted against, then the

:26:02.:26:05.

matter would still have stood and students would still have been

:26:06.:26:09.

deprived of their vital maintenance grants against the will of this

:26:10.:26:14.

House, and exactly contrary to what the Leader of the House and others

:26:15.:26:19.

on the Tory benches told us. It will be no satisfaction to English

:26:20.:26:22.

students suffering under this Government in the knowledge that

:26:23.:26:25.

they knowingly have deprived them of their maintenance grant. Madam

:26:26.:26:31.

Deputy Speaker, could I ask the chair to reflect on this procedure,

:26:32.:26:35.

because it is totally contrary and illustrates the complete swamp into

:26:36.:26:38.

which these people have let this House. I understand the point the

:26:39.:26:46.

right honourable gentleman is making. He has made the same point

:26:47.:26:52.

in different ways at various times. But this is a new point because this

:26:53.:26:58.

is the first time that we have actually had a double majority vote,

:26:59.:27:07.

and this is a different procedure. The right honourable gentleman will

:27:08.:27:10.

appreciate, of course, that the procedure that we have undertaken

:27:11.:27:16.

this afternoon was approved by the whole house and put into standing

:27:17.:27:22.

orders just a few months ago, and therefore the procedure under which

:27:23.:27:25.

we have operated this afternoon has been approved by the whole house,

:27:26.:27:31.

possibly not by the honourable gentleman, but by the majority of

:27:32.:27:37.

the whole house. But the right honourable gentleman very reasonably

:27:38.:27:39.

asks me, and this is what I can deal with, whether this matter will be

:27:40.:27:45.

reviewed. I'm happy to tell him that of course it will. Mr Speaker has

:27:46.:27:50.

made it clear that he will be keeping the new arrangement under

:27:51.:27:54.

review, and I also understand that the procedure committee will be

:27:55.:27:58.

keeping the arrangement under review, and I'm sure that the point

:27:59.:28:02.

that the right honourable gentleman has just so eloquently made will be

:28:03.:28:07.

taken into consideration by both Mr Speaker and the procedure committee

:28:08.:28:08.

as they consider the matter. This is the first time in 15 years

:28:09.:28:18.

that I have attempted to vote in the lobby and being denied the right to

:28:19.:28:22.

do so. My name is not on the tablet that was used. This is... This is a

:28:23.:28:31.

denial of the rights of my constituents to be represented in a

:28:32.:28:36.

vote in the House of Commons. And can I seek assurance from new that

:28:37.:28:42.

my vote will be recorded in the government lobby and that this kind

:28:43.:28:47.

of error will never be allowed to happen again? Yes, I can well

:28:48.:28:54.

understand the honourable gentleman's understandable

:28:55.:28:59.

consternation. I am absolutely certain that his constituency is in

:29:00.:29:04.

England, because it is right next to mine. And he has a perfectly good

:29:05.:29:15.

reason to complain. I am certain, however, that although his vote...

:29:16.:29:19.

It is quite wrong that his name did not properly appear and I am certain

:29:20.:29:24.

that that will be rectified. But I am assured that, although his name

:29:25.:29:30.

did not appear on that list, and his vote was not recorded in the way or

:29:31.:29:34.

the other votes were, his vote has been recorded both by the tellers

:29:35.:29:42.

and by the clerks this afternoon. And he need have no fear that his

:29:43.:29:49.

opinion has been overlooked, nor should it ever be. Point of order.

:29:50.:29:57.

If it is any consolation, my name was not on the list either. But I

:29:58.:30:10.

have been assured... By the teller that the vote was recorded. I am

:30:11.:30:18.

particularly concerned for the honourable gentleman, because he is

:30:19.:30:25.

very new to this house. I hope he will be making his maiden speech

:30:26.:30:30.

later this afternoon and we are all looking forward to that. Of course

:30:31.:30:35.

your names or to have been there and we will do everything we can to make

:30:36.:30:43.

sure it is there in future. I will come to that in a minute. Point of

:30:44.:30:49.

order. I wonder if you could help me with this. This is very serious. The

:30:50.:30:53.

fact one of our members, one of the most English, has been denied the

:30:54.:30:57.

opportunity to vote in the first double majority vote in this house.

:30:58.:31:01.

That is something that has to be properly investigated. Can you

:31:02.:31:07.

suggest is now worth having a recount, giving the honourable

:31:08.:31:14.

member has been left out of his first boat? -- given that. His vote

:31:15.:31:25.

has been counted. I can assure the honourable gentleman that his boat

:31:26.:31:36.

has been counted. Most definitely and there is no need whatsoever for

:31:37.:31:44.

a recount. -- vote has been counted. Thank you very much. I am very

:31:45.:31:47.

grateful for this opportunity to put on the record this part of the

:31:48.:31:53.

review. When a house adopts this appalling procedure to exclude from

:31:54.:32:00.

the count the votes of MPs like myself, who represents Northern

:32:01.:32:03.

Irish constituencies, because it has indicated that it is exclusively

:32:04.:32:09.

English, but undoubtedly affect my constituents, may I strongly

:32:10.:32:13.

recommend and extend a very warm welcome to the minister responsible

:32:14.:32:18.

for the bill for the statutory instrument to come to Northern

:32:19.:32:21.

Ireland, to milk and meat the students who have been affected. --

:32:22.:32:34.

look and meat. And explain why their rights have not been honoured

:32:35.:32:38.

equally with other MPs. All I can say is that, as I said to the Right

:32:39.:32:45.

honourable gentleman, the whole house decided on this new Standing

:32:46.:32:54.

Order and I would also say that have -- her vote has been registered and

:32:55.:32:58.

counted and her constituents will know how she has voted this

:32:59.:33:02.

afternoon. It hasn't been counted twice, but it has been counted once.

:33:03.:33:07.

Very definitely. And she has made her point. Point of order. May I

:33:08.:33:16.

assure the chair that fabricant was indeed on the tablet and the vote

:33:17.:33:22.

was recorded. And may I just take this opportunity of praising the

:33:23.:33:27.

clerk 's office, the Parliamentary digital service and yourself for

:33:28.:33:35.

going through this innovative and creative bit of legislation, so I

:33:36.:33:42.

think, relatively smoothly, despite the travails of my honourable

:33:43.:33:50.

friend. I thank the honourable gentleman very much indeed for his

:33:51.:33:55.

point of order. It is the case that the clerkand the offices of the

:33:56.:34:03.

house and those who work behind the scenes have worked very hard to put

:34:04.:34:08.

this new procedure into. And, given that it is the first time that we

:34:09.:34:15.

have had a double majority vote, it has not gone perfectly smoothly, but

:34:16.:34:20.

we all learn from our mistakes and I am quite certain that it will go

:34:21.:34:24.

more smoothly in the future. And I do ensure the house, especially

:34:25.:34:28.

honourable members who have concerns, that both Mr Speaker and

:34:29.:34:32.

the procedure committee are keeping a careful eye on what is happening.

:34:33.:34:39.

As is the Leader of the House on these matters and everything they

:34:40.:34:41.

have said will be taken into consideration. If there are no

:34:42.:34:47.

further points of order, we will proceed to the next business. That

:34:48.:34:53.

is the motion in the name of the Leader of the Opposition on the cost

:34:54.:34:58.

of public transport. I informed the house that Mr Speaker has not

:34:59.:35:03.

selected the amendment and I call Lillian Greenwood to move the

:35:04.:35:09.

motion. Thank you. I beg to move the motion that stands in my name and

:35:10.:35:12.

that of my right honourable and honourable friends. I would like to

:35:13.:35:16.

start by wishing the Secretary of State and happy New Year. Although

:35:17.:35:21.

that may not have been the sentiment that came to most commuters minds

:35:22.:35:25.

when they returned to work a fortnight ago. I am afraid it will

:35:26.:35:31.

come of cold comfort to be told by the Minister, on the day that fares

:35:32.:35:36.

rose again, that the government's plan for passengers is improving

:35:37.:35:41.

journeys for everyone. The Chief Executive of transport focus gave a

:35:42.:35:44.

more accurate assessment when he said that, "Some parts of the

:35:45.:35:52.

country have seen performances so dire, that passengers will be

:35:53.:35:56.

surprise if there are any fare rises at all." I attended a summit

:35:57.:36:04.

yesterday -- in a summit yesterday, many would not be able to reconcile

:36:05.:36:12.

that, because of unreliable and overcrowded carriages. I will give

:36:13.:36:21.

way. I am very grateful to this for giving way. -- to her. Does she

:36:22.:36:29.

agree that members of all sides are fed up with excuses and broken

:36:30.:36:40.

promises and we want action taking against Southern Rail? He is exactly

:36:41.:36:44.

right and I know that he and other honourable friends are holding

:36:45.:36:48.

Southern Rail to account for the poor punctuality and passenger

:36:49.:36:53.

satisfaction. And that underlined the need for reform of the railways.

:36:54.:36:58.

Let's look at the facts. In 2010, the Conservative Party said it would

:36:59.:37:02.

relieve the pressure of both the fair pay and the taxpayer. What

:37:03.:37:08.

happened? Regulated fares rose by 25%. Commuters from Birmingham to

:37:09.:37:14.

London are paying more than ?10,000 for the first time for a season

:37:15.:37:19.

ticket. Also, ministers bowed to lobbying from the train operating

:37:20.:37:27.

companies and reinstated flex. So some season tickets have gone up by

:37:28.:37:33.

38% since 2010. And a new Northern evening peak restriction made prices

:37:34.:37:42.

go up by 162%. I'm sure my honourable friend will be aware that

:37:43.:37:49.

senior citizens, who may have business in London doing work for

:37:50.:37:52.

charities now find it very difficult to afford to come to London, unless

:37:53.:37:57.

it is outside peak times. And they are not very often able to arrange

:37:58.:38:01.

meetings at times that would suit them. He is quite right that there

:38:02.:38:10.

are concerns that for people who need to travel at peak times, it is

:38:11.:38:16.

almost impossible to find an affordable ticket. And bus fares

:38:17.:38:21.

have continued to rise, up 26% on average. More than three times

:38:22.:38:25.

faster than wages. In some areas have seen much higher rises. In the

:38:26.:38:32.

north-east, they have risen by 3% above inflation. And it is the

:38:33.:38:36.

nonmetropolitan areas that have seen some of the steepest increases,

:38:37.:38:42.

including the constituencies of many of the members opposite. Where fares

:38:43.:38:47.

have increased by 27% on average. I will give way. Thank you. The

:38:48.:38:54.

problem with buses is not just the fares, it is the fact that in rural

:38:55.:38:59.

areas, like my constituency, the privatised bus companies are

:39:00.:39:02.

withdrawing the services, because their margins are not big enough.

:39:03.:39:07.

Leigh he makes an important point and in many cases it is hard-pressed

:39:08.:39:11.

local authorities that are trying to fill the gap. -- he makes. When

:39:12.:39:23.

ministers said the cuts would not impact on fares or service levels.

:39:24.:39:30.

Almost six years on, the impact of the resumption is to bus subsidies

:39:31.:39:34.

and local authority budgets is clear. -- reductions. The impact is

:39:35.:39:51.

clear. Last year, it had shrunk to 17%. The overall mileage of social

:39:52.:39:56.

necessary services is down by 10% in the last year alone. And the number

:39:57.:40:03.

of transport authorities funding young persons travel schemes has

:40:04.:40:09.

fallen. They are used by every sector of society and we need new

:40:10.:40:14.

routes that are serving areas that are not currently served. We know

:40:15.:40:20.

that buses are particularly important to disabled and older

:40:21.:40:25.

passengers. And those on low incomes, young people and

:40:26.:40:29.

job-seekers. And I am proud of the support that Labour introduced. It

:40:30.:40:36.

provides a lifeline for pensioners and kept many networks going. The

:40:37.:40:41.

Prime Minister said he would keep the free bus pass. But Madam Deputy

:40:42.:40:51.

Speaker, what is the point of a free bus pass, when there are no bus

:40:52.:40:57.

services left? I will give way on that point. Thank you. Before I

:40:58.:41:05.

entered this bus, I sat on the board of Cardiff buses. We had to get

:41:06.:41:11.

together as Welsh bus companies and fresh legal action on the Welsh

:41:12.:41:15.

Labour government, because of breach of contract. -- threaten legal

:41:16.:41:23.

action. You don't want to talk about your own government's record on

:41:24.:41:31.

concessionary fares. He doesn't want to talk about the debate and issue

:41:32.:41:36.

here. And what has happened here in England. And I have to say if you

:41:37.:41:41.

search the speeches and the statements that ministers opposite

:41:42.:41:48.

have said from references to fare rises, you will spend your time in

:41:49.:41:56.

vain. I will make some progress and give way. They account for two

:41:57.:42:00.

thirds of public service journeys. They mentioned it will only once in

:42:01.:42:07.

passing. He will no doubt say that fans have been provided for local

:42:08.:42:12.

authorities to bid for support. And also investment for clear and

:42:13.:42:20.

freshen buses is welcome. Fares have outstripped inflation and wage

:42:21.:42:23.

growth and the savings from the falling cost of fuel is not being

:42:24.:42:29.

passed on. Across the country, bus services are trapped in a vicious

:42:30.:42:35.

cycle, where fare rises dampen down demand and rates are cut. In a

:42:36.:42:39.

moment. When transport focus, the watchdog,

:42:40.:42:54.

interviewed the people affected by the cuts, one person said they had a

:42:55.:42:59.

daughter who was disabled. They cut the bus service in the evenings,

:43:00.:43:02.

social cannot see them on a Sunday night. Another said that they cannot

:43:03.:43:05.

see elderly parents in the evening and care for them as much women

:43:06.:43:13.

needed most. They relied on the bus. One respondent said simply that, I

:43:14.:43:18.

cannot see dad in a nursing home on Sunday because there is no bus. The

:43:19.:43:23.

members opposite might say that the Government cannot be held

:43:24.:43:27.

accountable for the operation of a eight market and it is that London

:43:28.:43:31.

is the only area excluded from the 1985 transport act. The fact is that

:43:32.:43:36.

across the country buses continue to receive very high levels of public

:43:37.:43:42.

support. 41% of the industry's costs are met by subsidy. The competition

:43:43.:43:45.

commission found that genuine competition between bus companies

:43:46.:43:49.

beyond occasional and destructive bus wars is rare. Councils are

:43:50.:43:59.

forced to provide additional services where they can still afford

:44:00.:44:02.

to do so. It places additional costs of over ?300 million per year on a

:44:03.:44:09.

hard-pressed local authority. The North East transport authority has

:44:10.:44:12.

only been able to maintain local services by drawing on its reserves,

:44:13.:44:16.

while also pursuing reforms that would allow it to deliver better

:44:17.:44:18.

services at a lower cost to taxpayers. While fares... I will

:44:19.:44:27.

give way. But every thing she says is incorrect and obviously bus

:44:28.:44:29.

services are difficult. This is about choice. I would say to her,

:44:30.:44:34.

she needs to look at North ligature's Conservative run council

:44:35.:44:40.

who were able to reinstate the bus that was cut by the previous Labour

:44:41.:44:45.

government. In terms of choices, Labour run councils cut the workers'

:44:46.:44:52.

us so they could pay for a bonfire once a year. The honourable member

:44:53.:45:01.

needs to look at what powers the local authorities have two enabled

:45:02.:45:06.

to make effective choices on behalf of passengers. That is what I intend

:45:07.:45:11.

to set out. While this continues that macro while fares continue to

:45:12.:45:18.

rise, there are profit margins of 13% or more outside of London. For

:45:19.:45:26.

four years, mothers opposite ignored calls for reform. I am proud that

:45:27.:45:29.

Labour has continued to jump in the case for bus tendering. -- chewed

:45:30.:45:37.

champion -- decamp in the case. They were called on reformed

:45:38.:45:47.

Stalinists because they were trying to reform the services. We must

:45:48.:45:59.

question the sincerity of the commitment and that test will come

:46:00.:46:05.

in the forthcoming buses built. Will the Bill make buses available to all

:46:06.:46:11.

who need them? Will it contain measures to protect auroral bus

:46:12.:46:14.

services, which are particularly important to those communities, and

:46:15.:46:18.

have been hit by some of the highest there rises in the country? Madam

:46:19.:46:23.

Deputy Speaker, will it protect transport authorities from crippling

:46:24.:46:28.

compensation claims? A scheme board said that the authority should have

:46:29.:46:33.

set aside to do hundreds ?26 million to compensate operators for the

:46:34.:46:39.

potential loss of business. -- 226 million.

:46:40.:46:44.

A key northern powerhouse commitment will never get on the road, not to

:46:45.:46:51.

mention Cornwall and others who seek bus tendering powers. While the bus

:46:52.:46:57.

market is costing too much and is not delivering for passengers, we

:46:58.:47:00.

have seen the same trend on our railways. Commuter fares are also up

:47:01.:47:05.

by a quarter since 2010. Season tickets cost up to ?2000 more.

:47:06.:47:11.

Ministers restored the loophole known as Flex, meaning that the cost

:47:12.:47:18.

of some season tickets has risen by up to 38%. Even in fares in the

:47:19.:47:26.

north or by up to 106 to 2% at the direct insistence of the Department

:47:27.:47:34.

of Transport. I give way. Will she remind us for harmony as Flex is not

:47:35.:47:37.

available on the last Labour government was in office question

:47:38.:47:40.

and my correct that it was just one year, the year of the election? The

:47:41.:47:49.

Labour Party scrapped Flex permanently and it was his

:47:50.:47:52.

Department that chose to reinstate it, as well he knows. It is only as

:47:53.:47:58.

a result of concerted pressure by this side of the House that they

:47:59.:48:01.

have dropped it in the last two years. Evening fares in the North

:48:02.:48:15.

Heights by 106 to do -- 162% in the North.

:48:16.:48:20.

The conduct is hard for the uninitiated and the even the

:48:21.:48:27.

initiated to understand. Alongside an efficiency gap of up to 40% the

:48:28.:48:31.

bed to the best performing European operators, wasting money that should

:48:32.:48:40.

be used to fund the rise in travel costs and reduce fares.

:48:41.:48:48.

The smart ticketing programme that underpins the new policy is MDA

:48:49.:48:53.

percent over Budget, delayed by three years and there are rumours

:48:54.:48:58.

that it could be cancelled. The Secretary of State confirm that the

:48:59.:49:03.

south-east flexible ticketing programme is being dropped?

:49:04.:49:05.

Ministers may claim that services are getting better for everyone, but

:49:06.:49:09.

I thought into mind the gap between their rhetoric and reality. We all

:49:10.:49:14.

remember when the honourable member said that rail passengers had to

:49:15.:49:18.

start to realise that they are paying their fares for God to book a

:49:19.:49:24.

meeting. I will give way. In the corporate ladder of rhetoric which

:49:25.:49:28.

the honourable lady currently is, she has forgotten that in the last

:49:29.:49:31.

year of the Labour government, in one year, fares were dubbed by 11%

:49:32.:49:35.

and it is this government that has frozen begin a defence for three

:49:36.:49:39.

years. Would she like to acknowledge that and put some truth on the

:49:40.:49:43.

record? I thank the honourable member for his intervention. If you

:49:44.:49:49.

look at our record, rail fares were actually increased by inflation or

:49:50.:49:53.

even cut during six out of 13 years in power. Fares did rise in some

:49:54.:49:58.

years, and that helped to fund investment. Under Labour, there was

:49:59.:50:04.

more investment in rail in real terms than under any previous

:50:05.:50:08.

government. What we're seeing under this government is that that link

:50:09.:50:15.

has been broken. The Transport Secretary said that only commuters

:50:16.:50:19.

were paying regulated fares and on regulated fares could be quite

:50:20.:50:24.

cheap. Those comments are a world away from the frustrations enjoyed

:50:25.:50:27.

by passengers everyday on the southern and Thames league which

:50:28.:50:33.

works best in this House and indeed today by the member for Streatham,

:50:34.:50:36.

which reflect an increasingly overcrowded and unreliable network.

:50:37.:50:42.

In 2009, the Conservative Party's rail policy review said that there

:50:43.:50:45.

rises come with tacit governorate approval and the direct result of

:50:46.:50:53.

the franchise process. For the Secretary of State say why did will

:50:54.:51:03.

resume... Passengers were always told that high fares were necessary

:51:04.:51:08.

to pay for improvements. Under this government, that link has been

:51:09.:51:13.

broken. The electrification of key lines was first paused and then

:51:14.:51:18.

shambolic we on paused, one week before the Conservative party

:51:19.:51:22.

conference. Those projects are now delayed by years. Madame Debord is

:51:23.:51:26.

bigger, this ghost heart of public trust in the row ways. Ministers and

:51:27.:51:30.

honourable members opposite went into the last election on a

:51:31.:51:34.

manifesto that said key improvers would be delivered in this

:51:35.:51:37.

Parliament. Information about the true state of those programmes was

:51:38.:51:39.

kept concealed within the Department. The Transport Secretary

:51:40.:51:44.

has said that he was not informed about the state of the

:51:45.:51:46.

electrification programme until after me. Why did he not post

:51:47.:51:52.

searching questions within the Department in 2014, when my

:51:53.:51:54.

predecessor, the honourable member for Wakefield, challenged him to say

:51:55.:51:58.

which electrification programmes would be delayed or cancelled due to

:51:59.:52:02.

cost overruns on the Great Western mainline. I will give way. I will

:52:03.:52:09.

ask one question, how will all of this be paid for? Will it be

:52:10.:52:16.

borrowed, or we -- or will be put up prices? I will come to that later in

:52:17.:52:21.

my speech. The honourable member should listen intently. The cost

:52:22.:52:34.

estimates for great Reston education rose from 548 million to 930 million

:52:35.:52:42.

to 1.7 billion. It is now rising further still to 2.8 billion. Why

:52:43.:52:48.

did he not act when the Transport Select Committee warned in January

:52:49.:52:53.

2015 that key rail enhancement addict had been announced by

:52:54.:52:55.

ministers without Network Rail having a clear estimate of what the

:52:56.:52:59.

projects will cost, leading to uncertainty about whether the

:53:00.:53:01.

project is will be delivered on time or at all. Will he confirm that he

:53:02.:53:08.

commissioned a report on the state of the litigation programme, which

:53:09.:53:13.

reported to him in September 2014, a report that has never been published

:53:14.:53:16.

and a Freedom of Information act request for a copy has been

:53:17.:53:19.

personally refused by a minister in his Department. What did that

:53:20.:53:23.

reports say? What has he got to hide? The truth is, his Department

:53:24.:53:31.

was clearly warned by Network Rail about the impending problems.

:53:32.:53:38.

Network Rail's Chief Executive confirmed to me that, and I quote,

:53:39.:53:43.

in mid-March 2015, Network Rail informed the FT that decisions may

:53:44.:53:48.

need to be made in the coming months about the deferral of certain

:53:49.:53:52.

schemes. If the Secretary of State really was not aware of what his own

:53:53.:53:57.

Department and Network Rail were doing, there is only one possible

:53:58.:54:02.

explanation, he made it clear he did not want to know. He failed to take

:54:03.:54:07.

responsibility and passengers are paying the price. We were told that

:54:08.:54:11.

it had and 50 miles of track would be rectified before 2019. Is it now

:54:12.:54:20.

half the original target? Is it quarter? Will he confirm that by

:54:21.:54:26.

2019, this government will do well to realise the plans for edification

:54:27.:54:31.

which were set out by a Labour member of state a decade ago. --

:54:32.:54:40.

plans for a list of patient -- at plans for electrification.

:54:41.:54:45.

Can I remind the Transport Secretary, his comments of two years

:54:46.:54:52.

ago, when he said that Labour's fare freeze would cost ?1.8 billion over

:54:53.:54:56.

the blood of the next Parliament and will be paid for by more borrowing

:54:57.:55:00.

and higher taxes. Given the black hole in Network Rail's finances will

:55:01.:55:07.

be plugged by asset sales and ?700 billion of additional borrowing, is

:55:08.:55:11.

it not the case that this government's ostrich like approach

:55:12.:55:15.

to the railways has resulted in what his own party might call more

:55:16.:55:17.

spending, more borrowing and more debt. Madame Debord is weaker, we

:55:18.:55:27.

need investment in our network. I'm proud of the fact we saw record

:55:28.:55:35.

investment before 2010. We invested more in the row ways in real terms

:55:36.:55:38.

than any previous government. It addressed the chronic maintenance

:55:39.:55:46.

backlog getting rid of unsafe coaches and ending the appalling

:55:47.:55:49.

safety crisis created by the disaster that was Railtrack. I'm

:55:50.:55:55.

concerned that the Government's programme has come to resemble not

:55:56.:55:58.

the hell did biggest investment assist the Victorian era that we

:55:59.:56:02.

hear about, but the weaponisation plan that did so much damage to the

:56:03.:56:09.

support for our row ways. -- to our railways. Again and again, the less

:56:10.:56:17.

edge is the same, they did not know they were not responsible, they were

:56:18.:56:25.

not there. They were not keeping an aye on the franchise programme which

:56:26.:56:31.

collapsed in 2012, costing taxpayers of the ?50 million, or the

:56:32.:56:35.

allocation of trains in the North, as the Secretary of State approved

:56:36.:56:39.

the transfer of rolling stock from Trans Pennine to the south,

:56:40.:56:43.

triggering a capacity crisis that cost another ?20 million to resolve.

:56:44.:56:47.

It seems that their focus was solely on privatising East Coast, a

:56:48.:56:52.

successful public sector rail operator which delivered record

:56:53.:56:56.

passenger satisfaction and by jollity scores, cut its fares in

:56:57.:57:03.

real terms in 2014 and invested all of its profits in the service. As

:57:04.:57:07.

reported last week, East Coast with delivering the best service on the

:57:08.:57:10.

line in the weeks before it was sold. Instead of extending that

:57:11.:57:15.

successful model to the other franchise services, the route was

:57:16.:57:20.

prioritised to be sold off. Worse, we now learn that tricky operated

:57:21.:57:28.

railways, it has been outsourced to companies with no experience of

:57:29.:57:32.

operating passenger services. We are left in the absurd position of

:57:33.:57:37.

divesting our in-house railway expertise at precisely the moment

:57:38.:57:41.

that several franchises from competition sees to be in doubt. On

:57:42.:57:45.

top of the damage already done, they seriously considering advertising

:57:46.:57:50.

Network Rail. They already tested the theory to destruction with

:57:51.:57:55.

Railtrack. The sell-off of bedrock while -- of Network Rail will risk

:57:56.:57:59.

dragging us back to the worst excesses of privatisation. I say to

:58:00.:58:04.

the Transport Secretary, do not go down this road, we know how it ends,

:58:05.:58:08.

and we on this side of the House will oppose it all the way. Can I

:58:09.:58:14.

just say how disappointed it was that the SNP in Governor but only

:58:15.:58:19.

issued a franchise for ScotRail but they passed up the opportunity to

:58:20.:58:23.

invite... CHEERING

:58:24.:58:28.

The franchise was awarded a four month after Gordon Brown made it

:58:29.:58:39.

clear that forced rail privatisation would be no more. On the right to

:58:40.:58:43.

include a public concentration is before Parliament in the film. They

:58:44.:58:52.

urged the Scottish Government at the time to... I thank her kindly for

:58:53.:58:59.

giving way. In terms of this and emotion I'm pleased she is

:59:00.:59:03.

addressing that part. I feel the request is particularly ironic,

:59:04.:59:06.

given that she talks about powers the local government should have.

:59:07.:59:10.

The Scottish parliament and government does not have the power

:59:11.:59:14.

to do this. What her and her party are encouraging as the Scottish

:59:15.:59:17.

Government to break the law. Can she explained why? Order. Before she

:59:18.:59:26.

answers, she has been very courteous and taking a lot of interventions

:59:27.:59:34.

and it is good to have a lively debate, but it has less than an hour

:59:35.:59:38.

and a half to go. She only has 25 minutes and she will also be aware

:59:39.:59:41.

there are many other people who wish to speak. I move towards finishing

:59:42.:59:51.

my speech. It's a pity that the honourable member didn't refer to

:59:52.:59:53.

the fact that the Labour government fully devolved the franchise.

:59:54.:00:09.

Actually, the invitation invitation -- issued, says they reserve the

:00:10.:00:18.

right to amend or terminate it. It was entirely in the power of the

:00:19.:00:24.

government to break the turn of the 1993 at could be amended, but they

:00:25.:00:28.

chose not to do so. There is nothing in the 1993 act or the invitation

:00:29.:00:34.

that prevented them from delaying the competition until section 25 of

:00:35.:00:37.

that act was amended. It is regrettable to see the inaccurate

:00:38.:00:42.

amendment laid down by SNP members today. It falls to Labour to set out

:00:43.:00:51.

the case for reforming the services and addressing the rising cost of

:00:52.:00:55.

public transport. That is what they are doing in local government. It is

:00:56.:01:01.

what my right honourable friend will do as the Mayor of London. By

:01:02.:01:06.

putting bus and rail passengers first. We must play our part in

:01:07.:01:11.

Parliament, too. And I urge members to support the motion today. Patrick

:01:12.:01:23.

McLoughlin. Thank you very much. I welcome the chance of this debate. I

:01:24.:01:28.

know the honourable lady cares very much about the subject. She has

:01:29.:01:31.

worked with us on the bill for eight S2. That is making good progress and

:01:32.:01:35.

I would like to thank the session for the their support. -- HS2. I

:01:36.:01:45.

would like to thank everyone responding to the floods. It has not

:01:46.:01:48.

been easy, but good progress is being made. In Cumbria, I was there

:01:49.:01:58.

to see it first hand. Over Christmas, Network Rail carried out

:01:59.:02:01.

successfully its biggest ever works as part of the upgrade plan, which

:02:02.:02:07.

is so essential. I would like to pay tribute to the thousands of staff

:02:08.:02:11.

who gave up their Christmas to improve our railways. Today, the

:02:12.:02:16.

honourable lady asks about transport costs. I'm pleased she has. It is

:02:17.:02:22.

something the opposition should know all about. When they were in office,

:02:23.:02:28.

fares sword. In their last full year, regulated fares increase by up

:02:29.:02:35.

to 11%. And between 2004 in 2010, they went up by around 4% a year.

:02:36.:02:44.

They could increase of some 26.4%. We have kept increases down. They

:02:45.:02:47.

have dropped steadily over the last five years and we have frozen the

:02:48.:02:51.

monthly increases and inflation for the whole of this Parliament. They

:02:52.:02:56.

promise made in our manifesto, a promise kept in government. Saving

:02:57.:03:01.

over one quarter of a million season tickets and average ?425 over the

:03:02.:03:13.

next five years. Fuel prices are down by almost 60% in real terms,

:03:14.:03:21.

since 2010. And we abolished a number of increases, which were

:03:22.:03:24.

going to take place under the Labour government. -- season-ticket

:03:25.:03:31.

holders. If all of the howling we have just heard from the opposite

:03:32.:03:34.

benches about oil prices, was not the party opposite who wanted to

:03:35.:03:39.

freeze those prices? I am going to see a bit more about their record in

:03:40.:03:44.

government. I'm not sure I want to say too much about their record in

:03:45.:03:48.

opposition. There are three people trying to catch my... To get me to

:03:49.:03:55.

give way. I am mindful of the short time we have. I'm sorry about that

:03:56.:03:59.

and I know there are debates that are going to take place, but I will

:04:00.:04:03.

take a few interventions and I will take the honourable gentleman, that

:04:04.:04:07.

they either want to make progress. Can I ask him whether he thinks the

:04:08.:04:14.

cost being ?964 for a season ticket from Streatham Common to London

:04:15.:04:20.

Victoria is good value for money, in light of the recent services that my

:04:21.:04:24.

constituents have been subject to? That's by Southern Rail. And also,

:04:25.:04:30.

can I ask him whether he will give serious consideration in the future

:04:31.:04:39.

to looking at the break up of the GTR franchise? I will say something

:04:40.:04:45.

about the works that are going on on the network. The amount of work that

:04:46.:04:49.

is taking place will lead to some disruption. It will lead eventually

:04:50.:04:54.

to a much better service for all his constituents. So the huge investment

:04:55.:04:59.

that is taking place at the moment, will cause disruption while it is

:05:00.:05:03.

taking place. I wish that was not necessary, but people are going to

:05:04.:05:06.

be getting a much better service. That is at London Bridge station.

:05:07.:05:14.

But I do want to make some progress. Fuel prices are down by almost 60%

:05:15.:05:19.

since 2010. The cost of driving licences has been reduced. Theory

:05:20.:05:28.

test crops have been cut, as well as car insurance. But another thing

:05:29.:05:34.

they don't like talking about is the cost to our country of lost

:05:35.:05:37.

investment when they were in office. Cost to jobs, businesses and growth.

:05:38.:05:43.

Britain slipped from seventh to 33rd on the World Economic Forum's

:05:44.:05:47.

infrastructure league table when they were in government. They

:05:48.:05:51.

cancelled over 100 major Rd improvement projects. They didn't

:05:52.:05:57.

invest when they have the chance, they electrified just ten miles of

:05:58.:06:01.

railways. Less than one mile a year. I was going to say it was a snail's

:06:02.:06:08.

place electrification. But I have checked. That would be unfair to

:06:09.:06:13.

snails. They go faster than the last Labour government. So to sit, or to

:06:14.:06:21.

hear lectures from the opposition about electrification is not

:06:22.:06:23.

something that any member on the side of the house is going to take

:06:24.:06:28.

from the Labour Party. They didn't invest and they made the task of

:06:29.:06:32.

rectifying their mistakes much more of a challenge. The real benefit

:06:33.:06:39.

cannot be felt until all is vital -- this vital, but disruptive work has

:06:40.:06:45.

been completed. No wonder they are so reluctant to debate transport.

:06:46.:06:51.

Her immediate predecessor didn't even have a debate on transport.

:06:52.:06:55.

There is only been three debates on transport since 2010. That is,

:06:56.:07:00.

obviously, because they are so embarrassed by their record. They

:07:01.:07:07.

are so impressed by our record. She has served on the opposition front

:07:08.:07:14.

bench since 2011. She is the fourth shadow Secretary of State I have

:07:15.:07:18.

faced. And in that time, there have been about as many changes in the

:07:19.:07:22.

opposition's transport policy as there has been an shadow secretaries

:07:23.:07:27.

of State. I have a choice. I think I will give way. I notice he has been

:07:28.:07:37.

avoiding it for the past few minutes. Cannot ask him whether he

:07:38.:07:41.

will have a look at the use of citizen's cards. -- can I ask him.

:07:42.:07:52.

Some people badly need them. They need to come to London to do charity

:07:53.:07:58.

work, but the times do not suit the times when they gather. Can they

:07:59.:08:02.

have a look at that and the different franchises and the

:08:03.:08:09.

different uses? I want to create more capacity and doing that is one

:08:10.:08:19.

way we will do that, by building HS2. But it is very important we

:08:20.:08:23.

look at those things. Of course I will look at the points he makes. I

:08:24.:08:34.

do really need to make progress. The honourable lady used to be in favour

:08:35.:08:38.

of rail franchising. She seems now to be against it. It is interesting

:08:39.:08:42.

to note that her party's candidate for mayor is apparently so keen,

:08:43.:08:47.

that he wants transport for London to bid for contracts in the private

:08:48.:08:55.

sector. 2014, she got of our great railway companies, Stagecoach, to

:08:56.:09:01.

sponsor the Christmas cards. These days, Labour only has one policy on

:09:02.:09:05.

transport, turn all the singles bright red. -- signals. Now it wants

:09:06.:09:14.

to impose yet another cost on hard-working people. The cost of

:09:15.:09:20.

strikes. Not a single word about the planned strikes next week on the

:09:21.:09:25.

Underground. A party that won't even stand up for Londoners when the

:09:26.:09:28.

unions carry out selfish and irresponsible strikes. This

:09:29.:09:33.

government clearly stands on the side of Londoners and those who want

:09:34.:09:37.

to work here. Will the honourable lady condemned those planned

:09:38.:09:43.

strikes? I will give way to her if she will. Will she can them?

:09:44.:09:50.

Silence. She is properly under orders to join the picket lines.

:09:51.:09:54.

Does she agree with Lord Mandelson, who said" strikes would be

:09:55.:10:05.

economically efficient, because some travellers would discover better

:10:06.:10:11.

ways into work". That is Labour's new policy. A strike that aims to

:10:12.:10:16.

stop Londoners getting new and better services. It is central to

:10:17.:10:20.

the British economy. Because we are dealing with decline and deficit

:10:21.:10:26.

that the party left behind, we can afford to invest for growth. That

:10:27.:10:31.

means more things relating from our transport system. 1.65 billion

:10:32.:10:40.

journeys on the railway network. 316 billion vehicle as on our roads over

:10:41.:10:47.

one point three million journeys on the tube. That is why we are

:10:48.:10:52.

building railways and opening opportunities. A massive programme

:10:53.:10:57.

underway now, building Crossrail, completing Thameslink. Starting HS2.

:10:58.:11:04.

Setting up an independent centre structure commission. Getting on

:11:05.:11:15.

with a ?15 billion road investment strategy. Labour patched to cancel

:11:16.:11:23.

that. 38.5 billion investment in our railways. Can I thank him. Can I

:11:24.:11:34.

just remind him that during the course of the last election, they

:11:35.:11:44.

also said they would cancel the A359. I didn't hear how it would be

:11:45.:11:47.

paid for and I was told to listen clearly.

:11:48.:11:51.

They were saying they would take those roads out of the investment

:11:52.:11:57.

strategy. It is through our careful custodial management of the economy

:11:58.:12:01.

that we can afford to invest in the future. That is why we also see some

:12:02.:12:06.

4000 new railway carriages for the national network on order now,

:12:07.:12:09.

mostly being built in Britain. The honourable lady talks about the need

:12:10.:12:15.

to help people travel costs up and down the country, and I agree. That

:12:16.:12:18.

is why we are investing in Nottingham, which she represents.

:12:19.:12:24.

They has bid ?150 million widening the A453. We are under the tramp of

:12:25.:12:31.

a contribution of over ?70 million from this government. More in six

:12:32.:12:37.

years for the people of Nottingham than in the previous 13 years of the

:12:38.:12:40.

last Labour government. I must welcome as well the honourable

:12:41.:12:43.

member for Middlesbrough to the bench, sitting just down the way

:12:44.:12:49.

from her. I hope he will last longer than his predecessor, which will

:12:50.:12:53.

give him the benefit of seeing our investment in his constituency. New

:12:54.:12:58.

trains, direct services from London under virgin train is. East Coast.

:12:59.:13:06.

And in upgrade to the A19 nearby. Birmingham already has the upgrades

:13:07.:13:20.

to new Street station, services on Sunday from Longbridge and the

:13:21.:13:27.

M5programme. Under Labour, the cost of travel goes up and the cost of

:13:28.:13:35.

lost investment goes up as well. Investment is going on under us. I

:13:36.:13:46.

give way. I thank him. We have had an edification and road improvement

:13:47.:13:50.

projects. Will he acknowledge the good work done by North Mick

:13:51.:13:55.

Jagger's Conservative cancer which reversed the 500% increase in the

:13:56.:13:59.

cost of post-16 bus passes, adding them from ?180 to ?30 under this

:14:00.:14:06.

party. My honourable friend clearly shows that when Conservative

:14:07.:14:09.

councils choose priorities, they choose priorities to help local

:14:10.:14:13.

people and to make sure the investment goes on to the front

:14:14.:14:16.

line. I congratulate the council in his area for doing so. If my

:14:17.:14:20.

honourable friends will forgive me, I aware of the time and I know that

:14:21.:14:29.

other on what members -- honourable members want to speak, including an

:14:30.:14:38.

important maiden speech will. This is what the honourable lady is

:14:39.:14:43.

biggest, direct services to Middlesbrough, Dewsbury, and more

:14:44.:14:49.

trains to London from Bradford, Edinburgh, Harrogate, Leeds,

:14:50.:14:52.

Newcastle, Shipley, Stirling and York. That is our plan to build for

:14:53.:14:57.

the future. It means avoiding our great cities as well. With this

:14:58.:15:01.

government, great city deals, new mayors, a northern powerhouse, a

:15:02.:15:04.

transformation of the railways in the North. Mr Debord is bigger, in

:15:05.:15:12.

2004, when the opposition was in charge, it let the franchise for the

:15:13.:15:22.

Northern rail go to a zero growth basis. -- Mr Deputy Speaker.

:15:23.:15:31.

There is massive overcrowding, people expected to travel on one

:15:32.:15:35.

outpaces. World just before Christmas the governed lead a new

:15:36.:15:39.

franchise for Northern and Trans Pennine, which means that there is a

:15:40.:15:48.

boost to rail services. 500 new carriages, 40,000 extra spaces for

:15:49.:15:51.

passengers, free Wi-Fi on trains and stations. No wonder local Labour

:15:52.:15:54.

politicians in the North were lining up to praise it. Liam Robinson, the

:15:55.:16:00.

chairman of Mersey travel said it was a big step forward and will

:16:01.:16:08.

drive up standards. Labour councils, all praising the devolution to rail

:16:09.:16:14.

law. The RNC had a comment as well. -- the RMT. They describe it as a

:16:15.:16:22.

bitter blow. I have two Oscar, who did she agree with? Will she have

:16:23.:16:26.

signed that franchise contract, yes or no? But they have left the North

:16:27.:16:31.

with nothing as they did last time, while we bring in private and public

:16:32.:16:38.

sectors together, providing better services. The honourable lady

:16:39.:16:42.

mentions buses. Does she want to nationalise them? Working with a

:16:43.:16:52.

private sector. Bus use outside of London fell by 8% under her party.

:16:53.:17:00.

In 2010, and the 25% of buses outside London could take smart

:17:01.:17:06.

cards. Quebec 2010, bosses are safer, with more CCTV, they are

:17:07.:17:13.

busier and safer. There is a steam to by -- there is a

:17:14.:17:26.

scheme to buy new minibuses. On the ropes, we have work with transport

:17:27.:17:33.

England will. in cycling, which the opposition did

:17:34.:17:48.

not even mention today, we increased spending from two fans ahead which

:17:49.:17:54.

we inherited in 2010 to ?6 a head today and we will go further still.

:17:55.:17:58.

That is the investment we need to help cut the cost of transport.

:17:59.:18:09.

Getting on with HS2, construction is starting less than two years from

:18:10.:18:14.

now. Record investments, a rail fare increase frozen with inflation.

:18:15.:18:19.

Transport transforming our country while the party opposite just wants

:18:20.:18:24.

to go back to an age when the train use fell, fares went up and

:18:25.:18:29.

investment was cut. This government is optimistic about the rail, road,

:18:30.:18:35.

bosses, and cycling. We are going to be trusting we will see investment

:18:36.:18:40.

at a record level which will be good for our cities and for our country,

:18:41.:18:45.

right across the transport network. Mr Deputy Speaker, I urge the House

:18:46.:18:53.

to reject the motion. Before I start, can I echo the sediment of

:18:54.:18:56.

the Secretary of State regarding the staff that work in the floods and

:18:57.:19:01.

inclement weather over Christmas and New Year on all other networks to

:19:02.:19:05.

keep us moving in to help passengers as they travelled. Mr Deputy

:19:06.:19:10.

Speaker, a debate on public transport is welcome. People need

:19:11.:19:15.

public transport, they need effective, regular and affordable

:19:16.:19:22.

public transport. The issue needs to be moved forward. I'm not sure from

:19:23.:19:25.

the opening exchanges and would have had that. Public transport is

:19:26.:19:31.

something which is close to my heart and that of many of my honourable

:19:32.:19:37.

friend. My constituency is mostly a rural community. Scotland has a

:19:38.:19:45.

diverse public transport set of needs. Many can only use their cars.

:19:46.:19:51.

It is not just the cost of public transport that matters to them, but

:19:52.:19:57.

also the cost to the public transport. This motion could have

:19:58.:20:00.

benefited from the inclusion of some other forms of transport that people

:20:01.:20:06.

need. And even rely on in Scotland. For example, we do not see a BA

:20:07.:20:09.

should as something other than public transport, that is what it

:20:10.:20:14.

is. Marine transport is important to us, with berries, and that is public

:20:15.:20:18.

transport. As Secretary of State, public cycling schemes and public

:20:19.:20:23.

costs in relation to roads, tolls for example, and the need for major

:20:24.:20:29.

if a structure projects in consideration to Scotland could be

:20:30.:20:32.

debated. This debate could have been more inclusive and serve common

:20:33.:20:40.

purpose. They could have been more positives, seeking to benefit

:20:41.:20:43.

people. Turning to the buses, many local bus services received

:20:44.:20:48.

subsidies to ensure that uncommercial services could continue

:20:49.:20:58.

to operate. In 9095 to 2015, Scottish bus fares went from being

:20:59.:21:01.

10% higher than England to then having lower bus fares. Since 2007,

:21:02.:21:08.

bus fares in Scotland have risen by 5% less in Scotland than in England.

:21:09.:21:16.

Since 2010, bust fares -- bus fares have risen... The Scottish garment

:21:17.:21:27.

have invested ?250 million -- ?250,000 every year in a

:21:28.:21:34.

concessional travel scheme. That helps older and more disabled people

:21:35.:21:39.

to live connected, healthier lives. In aviation, currently, are direct

:21:40.:21:45.

flights to over 32 countries and the successful work is ongoing to

:21:46.:21:48.

improve local collections to Scotland and connectivity through

:21:49.:21:55.

world hubs. We plan to make changes to improve the situation for a

:21:56.:21:59.

travelling up to reduce their cost, to help businesses including tourism

:22:00.:22:03.

and food entering to improve our economy and give better choice to

:22:04.:22:07.

people and to grow key sectors of the economy, or for the people of

:22:08.:22:13.

Scotland. We are working to see guaranteed levels of access between

:22:14.:22:22.

Scotland and London. It is important to ensure vital if a judge as an

:22:23.:22:29.

asset that can contribute to the Scottish economy. In roads, we have

:22:30.:22:37.

invested to ensure that Scotland has a modern transport researcher for

:22:38.:22:44.

the 21st century. -- modern transport infrastructure. We have

:22:45.:22:49.

abolished all rolled tolls on bridges in Scotland. -- all road

:22:50.:22:57.

tolls. We have invested in a new Forth crossing, again with no tolls

:22:58.:23:06.

for the public. Ministers from the Scottish government have invested in

:23:07.:23:13.

peers and harbours. It will accommodate the new vessel. Since

:23:14.:23:22.

2007, we have invested nearly ?1 billion in ferry services including

:23:23.:23:27.

road equivalent tariffs and six new ferries. We have introduced a third

:23:28.:23:40.

hybrid, which was launched at the shipyard in Glasgow in 2015. In

:23:41.:23:49.

October 2015, Ferguson engineering Limited were awarded a contract to

:23:50.:23:56.

build two ferries with a delivery date of 2017-18. The First Minister

:23:57.:24:04.

of Scotland confirmed on Monday, just yesterday, but Dundee Central

:24:05.:24:06.

waterfront infrastructure would be the latest Scottish government

:24:07.:24:10.

project to be delivered on a Budget and ahead of schedule. This includes

:24:11.:24:14.

a re-rationalised project and is part of the Dundee waterfront

:24:15.:24:20.

project which will create 7000 new jobs. Let me come to the interesting

:24:21.:24:26.

one on rail franchises. The Labour Party have chosen this important

:24:27.:24:32.

issue, and this is what the public will not understand outside of this

:24:33.:24:36.

chamber. They have chosen this important issue in here to attack

:24:37.:24:41.

the Scottish government. Not the UK government, who are they -- they are

:24:42.:24:50.

supposed to be opposing. Every time they take a trip up the branch line,

:24:51.:24:56.

they end up embarrassing themselves and the branch office in Scotland.

:24:57.:24:59.

Frankly, they aren't harassing everyone. The purpose of opposition,

:25:00.:25:04.

surely, is to build alliances, to hold the Government to account? What

:25:05.:25:11.

a missed opportunity! The SNP are the effective opportunity in this

:25:12.:25:16.

chamber. That is why they go after its everyday. They know that now.

:25:17.:25:22.

They spent more time on us now. This motion, in this motion, imagine

:25:23.:25:27.

deliberately inserting a line, a complete falsehood, by the way,

:25:28.:25:32.

which makes it impossible for us to support them in the lobby tonight.

:25:33.:25:37.

Imagine that, Mr Deputy Speaker. People are looking on. They see this

:25:38.:25:42.

shambles for what it is. They are switched on like never before, and

:25:43.:25:47.

they are continuing to lose respect for Labour with stunts like these.

:25:48.:25:53.

Let me tell you about the Scottish government and frail policy. The UK

:25:54.:25:57.

government oversees a perverse system each four bits publicly owned

:25:58.:26:01.

UK bodies from bidding on rail franchises. Overseas private

:26:02.:26:22.

operators can bid. They are currently prevented by UK

:26:23.:26:28.

legislation. There is a lesson for then, Mr Debord is bigger. -- Mr

:26:29.:26:38.

Deputy Speaker. This would allow maximum social and economic benefit

:26:39.:26:41.

for our people. Labour have used this motion to attack the SNP for

:26:42.:26:51.

awarding the ScotRail franchise. They know that the Railways act of

:26:52.:26:58.

1993 setup under John Major 's government specifically forbids UK

:26:59.:27:03.

publicly owned Company 's from bidding. This is a matter for

:27:04.:27:11.

rhetoric versus reality. I am grateful. He said

:27:12.:27:22.

that the regulation was induced under John Major, but can he confirm

:27:23.:27:29.

that the Labour Party democracy and it over 13 years? They are in the

:27:30.:27:35.

position of having to agree with the Cabinet Secretary. Imagine that!

:27:36.:27:37.

What an absolute shambles. The Labour Party spent 13 years in

:27:38.:27:48.

government without ever changing, despite heavily amended the act with

:27:49.:27:53.

the transport act in 2000 and the Railways act in 2005. Although, they

:27:54.:28:04.

had the power, they did nothing to repeal the act. Nothing. It is not

:28:05.:28:07.

the first time we have had this nonsense. The newly elected leader

:28:08.:28:13.

of the Labour Party, not so new now perhaps, said not long after taking

:28:14.:28:20.

the leadership," I have been in Scotland a lot of times during the

:28:21.:28:28.

leadership campaign. I will be there during the leadership of the party.

:28:29.:28:35.

" The SNP are also privatising other things. We are behind the

:28:36.:28:40.

privatisation of ScotRail. What an absolute pile of nonsense. A

:28:41.:28:49.

successive -- as a successive governments have done before, they

:28:50.:28:53.

were following the regulations they are required to follow in EU law.

:28:54.:29:01.

Does he not recall that once upon a time the Labour Party was actually

:29:02.:29:05.

in power in Scotland as well. It was in power down here and there. And at

:29:06.:29:12.

no point did he -- they make any effort to bring it into public

:29:13.:29:19.

ownership. I am grateful for his intervention, because he is right.

:29:20.:29:24.

They made no effort in government either here or in Scotland to do

:29:25.:29:28.

anything about this. They know very well that the act forbids the

:29:29.:29:33.

Scottish Government for doing that. -- from doing that. We had that

:29:34.:29:38.

fabrication about the ability to change that from the Labour leaders.

:29:39.:29:44.

He also said the SNP said we were behind the privatisation of

:29:45.:29:51.

ScotRail. There wasn't even a Scottish permanent ban. But don't

:29:52.:29:54.

let the truth of the law get in the way of anything then. -- parliament

:29:55.:30:04.

then. Where was that support when every single Scotland Bill amendment

:30:05.:30:11.

tabled by the SNP was voted down in this house? Where was that? " For

:30:12.:30:20.

well allow for the Scottish Government to consider bids from

:30:21.:30:27.

other operators. But we tried to go further. We tabled a new clause to

:30:28.:30:33.

devolve rail services in Scotland, giving Scottish ministers for powers

:30:34.:30:36.

and the flexibility to decide who would run such services. Like every

:30:37.:30:42.

other as MP amendment to the Scottish bill, it was voted down.

:30:43.:30:50.

That was by English MPs. -- that clause.

:30:51.:31:02.

It would allow us to adjust the current ticketing system, whilst

:31:03.:31:11.

having a fair system. We could happen any time single ticking from

:31:12.:31:18.

London to Edinburgh. For London to Newcastle. -- single ticket. London

:31:19.:31:32.

to Aberdeen costs 107 50. It is just... It doesn't make sense.

:31:33.:31:37.

Frequently, it is cheaper to split a ticket on by a direct one. That is a

:31:38.:31:45.

single from King's Cross to Edinburgh cost ?95. Often, a King's

:31:46.:31:50.

Cross to York and York to Edinburgh costs ?66 in total. We could have

:31:51.:31:53.

done something about sorting that out. Let me say that the Scottish

:31:54.:32:01.

Government or the SNP will take no lessons from the Labour leader when

:32:02.:32:04.

it comes to investing in Scotland. With such a lack of understanding of

:32:05.:32:09.

even the basics, it's no wonder that, according to a recent survey

:32:10.:32:15.

poll, his approval rating in Scotland are -17%. The First

:32:16.:32:22.

Minister has approval ratings of plus 27%. As we have already

:32:23.:32:29.

established, the issue of public ownership being out of the hands of

:32:30.:32:33.

the Scottish Government, so I would like to talk about the rail

:32:34.:32:37.

franchise in Scotland to finish up. The Scottish Government work and

:32:38.:32:41.

Abellio to the ScotRail franchise, because they have moved their UK

:32:42.:32:50.

headquarters from London to Glasgow, creating 50 new jobs. As a result of

:32:51.:32:54.

new Deal, passengers and staff will enjoy a range of benefits, including

:32:55.:32:59.

advanced fares starting at ?5 between Scottish cities, a

:33:00.:33:03.

commitment to earnings of at least the living wage in Scotland. For all

:33:04.:33:10.

staff and contractors. At least 100 apprenticeships, a guarantee of no

:33:11.:33:15.

compulsory redundancies. Rail staff pensions and travel rights

:33:16.:33:20.

protected. Free Wi-Fi on trains, a new approach to cycling, with more

:33:21.:33:25.

than 3500 parking spaces and a bike hire out a number of stations.

:33:26.:33:31.

Compare that to Southern Rail. 80 new trains due to arrive at the

:33:32.:33:36.

start of December 2017 and 23% more characters across the network. The

:33:37.:33:44.

Scottish Government's record on rail is a ?5 million programme of

:33:45.:33:48.

investing in Scotland's railways, committed to over five years to

:33:49.:33:54.

2019, including ?117 million on the Aberdeen to Inverness rail upgrade.

:33:55.:34:00.

?300 million to open another rail link, providing a passenger service

:34:01.:34:04.

from North Lanarkshire to West Lothian for the first time in 54

:34:05.:34:09.

years. Since privatisation, there have been regulated. -- they have

:34:10.:34:20.

been regulated. In January 2013, fares across all operators were 23%

:34:21.:34:26.

higher than they were in January 19 95. The average annual increase has

:34:27.:34:29.

only been 1.2%. I will finish with this. It's nice to be appreciated,

:34:30.:34:41.

thank you. This is the story of a government investing in public

:34:42.:34:45.

transport for people. The Scottish Government's budget has been cut by

:34:46.:34:52.

12.5% in 2010. One in every ?8 has gone for unnecessary ideological

:34:53.:34:56.

austerity. Despite this, we are still investing in infrastructure.

:34:57.:35:00.

Having already invested ?15 billion in transport since 2007, they are

:35:01.:35:07.

committed to the largest transport investment programme that Scotland

:35:08.:35:12.

has ever seen, despite this relentless Westminster cuts. I

:35:13.:35:21.

wanted to make a short competition. -- contribution. It is important he

:35:22.:35:28.

gets his maiden speech. I would like to talk about Birmingham

:35:29.:35:32.

International Airport, but we will see that. I want to talk briefly

:35:33.:35:37.

about some of the great rail links in the West Midlands area. My

:35:38.:35:45.

constituents can live in my constituency and are able to travel

:35:46.:35:51.

there. It makes it easier to get them across the Midlands. We have

:35:52.:35:59.

seen a 700 million pounds refurbishment to Birmingham new

:36:00.:36:03.

Street and a new John Lewis store. We have seen ?13 million awarded to

:36:04.:36:10.

the mess Midlands gains until 2017. This will include upgrades to ticket

:36:11.:36:14.

service machines, including being made contactless. Ensuring passenger

:36:15.:36:24.

safety and technology giving up to date. I welcome the devolution deal

:36:25.:36:32.

signed in November, which will power the Midlands ending. Ever the first

:36:33.:36:38.

region outside the north to sign a deal for the elected mayor. The new

:36:39.:36:44.

authority will have the overview of transport in our region. Before I

:36:45.:36:47.

finish, I would like to say something about HS2. I have been a

:36:48.:36:54.

huge fan of this project. We have seen the HS2 headquarters move to

:36:55.:36:59.

our region and huge investment being put into this project. It is almost

:37:00.:37:06.

always talked about as being about speed. It is also about passengers.

:37:07.:37:11.

We talk a lot about rebalancing the economy. And I believe it can help

:37:12.:37:16.

us do this. There's always two sides to every story and I wanted to put

:37:17.:37:20.

on the record that my constituency and our region are benefiting after

:37:21.:37:25.

years of underinvestment and will continue to do so for many years to

:37:26.:37:31.

come under this government. A maiden speech. Thank you. Thank you for

:37:32.:37:42.

allowing me to make my maiden speech in this debate. I should pay tribute

:37:43.:37:47.

to Michael Meacher, not simply because it is customary to do so,

:37:48.:37:52.

book because he was a dear friend to the people of my constituency. He

:37:53.:37:56.

will be missed and remembered locally and by members of this

:37:57.:38:01.

house. I would like to thank the voters of my constituency for

:38:02.:38:09.

instilling their trust in me. I can say over work hard to live up to

:38:10.:38:13.

that trust, along with my colleagues. And from a Labour Party

:38:14.:38:17.

point of view, I think as a family we have shown what we can achieve

:38:18.:38:21.

when we pull together. The result was an impressive result for the

:38:22.:38:27.

Labour family. As I stand here today, I reflect on the remarkable

:38:28.:38:32.

story, and I would say that, wouldn't I? Of a young boy from a

:38:33.:38:38.

place in Manchester. Standing here in the House of Commons today. The

:38:39.:38:46.

Street where I grew up as a child no longer exists, but the values

:38:47.:38:49.

instilled in me of hard work and courage remain. Mr Deputy Speaker,

:38:50.:38:58.

the borough of Oldham and seven towns, their culture, community and

:38:59.:39:01.

comradeship have played a defining part in history of our country.

:39:02.:39:10.

Their values of hard work, grit, integrity go to the heart of British

:39:11.:39:16.

values, exemplified by its diverse communities today. My constituency

:39:17.:39:26.

got it base in history making the Lancaster bomber. It employs 20,000

:39:27.:39:32.

people. When it closed its doors in 2012, the 1500 staff that remained

:39:33.:39:46.

moved out and that was a Saturday. -- Saturday. And Platt brothers once

:39:47.:39:50.

famous for being the largest engineering plant in Europe. Both of

:39:51.:39:57.

those have now gone. And Royton actually has a lot in common with

:39:58.:40:03.

this place. You may remember this rhyme, remember, remember, the 26th

:40:04.:40:09.

of November. 26th of November 1884, which was when the Royton town Hall,

:40:10.:40:16.

the gunpowder plot unfolded. Knowing windows and doors off that. And,

:40:17.:40:22.

interestingly, by a gang master who was campaigning against measures

:40:23.:40:27.

through the Thatcher 's act to restrict children from ten years old

:40:28.:40:32.

working in the Milnes. Many people who know Oldham as an industrial

:40:33.:40:41.

giant and it was. It spun over 17 million spindles. More than the

:40:42.:40:47.

whole of the united states. 80% of the total number of spindles were

:40:48.:40:51.

spun in the UK. -- working in the Milnes. It was built on exploitation

:40:52.:41:00.

and very little regard for famous. People came from countries right

:41:01.:41:02.

around the world to make a better life for themselves. People

:41:03.:41:08.

struggled in desperate poverty, while quite a lot of the money left

:41:09.:41:12.

town. Exploitation didn't stop in Oldham. To feed the 70 million

:41:13.:41:19.

spindles, that required a lot of cotton. Picked in the field of the

:41:20.:41:24.

American South. As the machines raged in 1860, it took 200,000 black

:41:25.:41:32.

slaves to pick enough cotton to feed e-mails. So exploitation at home and

:41:33.:41:42.

abroad. Today, hard-fought battles for betting living standards, they

:41:43.:41:48.

welfare state when you need it and decent homes that have been eroded.

:41:49.:41:52.

-- better living standards. People have seen their lifeline is being

:41:53.:41:57.

taken away. For too many, work doesn't play and they cannot make

:41:58.:42:05.

ends meet. Now, I may be pitting Oldham as being beaten. Mark my

:42:06.:42:09.

words, we are far from beaten. We have courage, and we have

:42:10.:42:17.

determination. -- painting. Have a future will be solidified on solid

:42:18.:42:21.

hard work and industrious revolution.

:42:22.:42:24.

We are town going from strength to strength. We are creating new jobs.

:42:25.:42:32.

We can be proud of what we have achieved in recent years, but too

:42:33.:42:35.

often it feels that we're doing it alone. It shouldn't be that way.

:42:36.:42:41.

Devolution must be more than a love affair with the big cities. It must

:42:42.:42:45.

deliver and provide a decent settlement for towns and four

:42:46.:42:48.

districts as well. I want all them to flourish, to be the place where

:42:49.:42:58.

my sons and the other 57,000 young people with proud -- will be proud

:42:59.:43:05.

to call home. The challenge is not to be one of good administration but

:43:06.:43:11.

good, strong political leadership. We have shown we can get things

:43:12.:43:15.

done. The expansion of the tram system will definitely accelerate

:43:16.:43:19.

economic road. We must also push for the future. Cross borough expansion.

:43:20.:43:26.

I want to use this opportunity to place a marker down, a marker for a

:43:27.:43:31.

loop line from Ashton town centre through to Oldham. And from

:43:32.:43:41.

Middleton spur on to the Bury line, connecting the conurbation of

:43:42.:43:47.

Manchester. I hope my honourable friend will realise that I was the

:43:48.:43:57.

honourable member for transport in Manchester. Our past never crossed.

:43:58.:44:07.

-- our paths never crossed. As we fight to end the North South divide

:44:08.:44:13.

in the UK, we know that if a structure investment can address

:44:14.:44:19.

Manchester's own North -South divide. If we point out the

:44:20.:44:30.

imbalance in the UK, we cannot ignore domestic matters closer to

:44:31.:44:34.

home in Greater Manchester. For every ten judge that were created in

:44:35.:44:37.

South Manchester in the last decade, only one was created in the north of

:44:38.:44:41.

the conurbation. We cannot carry on like that if devolution is to be a

:44:42.:44:48.

success. I believe in devolution and I will continue to fight for power

:44:49.:44:51.

to be moved away from Whitehall to empower communities. I have got to

:44:52.:44:56.

be honest, devolution as it stands today does not empower communities.

:44:57.:45:04.

As the former leader of Oldham Council, I called the devolution and

:45:05.:45:07.

worked hard to make sure we had a clear vision for Oldham. Far better

:45:08.:45:17.

devolution on time she did not agree with, or have no devolution at all.

:45:18.:45:28.

Without a clear national framework for devolution, it is for the

:45:29.:45:31.

Chancellor himself to pick and choose who he deals with and what is

:45:32.:45:36.

on offer. The hallmark of devolution so far has been a Treasury power

:45:37.:45:40.

grab, straight from other ministries. The Chancellor had the

:45:41.:45:42.

opportunity to devolve real financial freedoms but he chose not

:45:43.:45:47.

to. The Chancellor is quick to give away power of his bonuses and I'm

:45:48.:45:53.

sure Microsoft the other side of the chamber will be concerned about

:45:54.:45:56.

that, but the evidence said he's not keen on giving away his own power.

:45:57.:46:01.

Without genuinely informing central governorate and addressing their

:46:02.:46:05.

funding for the northern powerhouse, the brand is meaningless. This is

:46:06.:46:10.

what people in Oldham Sea. They see the magistrates court is closing,

:46:11.:46:13.

the county court is closing, we haven't got a single police custody

:46:14.:46:23.

cell for the town. Youth centres, closing. Thousands of staff

:46:24.:46:32.

displaced. Regeneration is blocked by central government, and we are to

:46:33.:46:35.

be at the heart of the northern powerhouse. Biblical challenge of

:46:36.:46:41.

our time is not how we divide to rule but how we unite and forge a

:46:42.:46:45.

future where every man, woman and child see that they have got a stake

:46:46.:46:49.

in the future, where there is more to life and there has got three more

:46:50.:46:52.

to life than just getting by and making ends meet. Oldham MP was

:46:53.:46:59.

Churchill once said, no one can come into close contact with the working

:47:00.:47:07.

folk of Lancashire without wishing them well. But well-wishers alone

:47:08.:47:15.

are not enough. The dark, so can ignore that blighted the sky have by

:47:16.:47:18.

and large now gone. We are a long way from realising how own

:47:19.:47:25.

Jerusalem. Friends, let us not cease from fight, not let our swords sleep

:47:26.:47:32.

in our land until we have rebuilt Jerusalem in Oldham's Green and

:47:33.:47:37.

pleasant land. We have a lot of speakers to get in. Can I suggest

:47:38.:47:44.

that members. We can do up to two minutes each. May I say what a

:47:45.:47:51.

pleasure it was to listen to be made in speech of the member for Oldham

:47:52.:47:58.

West. It was an excellent speech. Everyone in this chamber will no it

:47:59.:48:04.

is usually a nightmare to make your first speech in this chamber. But

:48:05.:48:06.

the way in which the honourable gentleman delivered his speech,

:48:07.:48:14.

without showing a single nerve, Worksop and justifies the reputation

:48:15.:48:19.

that certainly outsiders from the south like I heard about the

:48:20.:48:24.

honourable gentleman in the barn up to the by-election, that he was a

:48:25.:48:32.

highly effective, highly personal leader of his local council. He is

:48:33.:48:36.

not a loss to Oldham but he is certainly a game to the House of

:48:37.:48:40.

Commons, and we look forward to his future contributions in our debates.

:48:41.:48:47.

Mr Deputy Speaker... LAUGHTER

:48:48.:48:51.

Thank you. I read the motion for this debate

:48:52.:48:56.

very carefully. I have to say, I listened to the honourable lady, the

:48:57.:49:03.

Shadow Secretary of State with great interest and growing amazement, as I

:49:04.:49:06.

noticed that she was able to make her speech whilst keeping a straight

:49:07.:49:14.

face. It was quite incredible. He is a motion which, if you look at the

:49:15.:49:20.

parts of it to do with the row ways, is basically in nice, cuddly words,

:49:21.:49:26.

suggesting that we renationalise the row ways. Many of my honourable

:49:27.:49:32.

friends and be on Budget and who has just made his maiden speech are too

:49:33.:49:38.

young to remember the days of British Rail but I do find it

:49:39.:49:41.

extraordinary the way that history has been rewritten and that

:49:42.:49:47.

everything was wonderful under that monolithic organisation that was

:49:48.:49:53.

late, expensive, the sandwiches curled up at the ends, and did not

:49:54.:49:59.

provide a fit for purpose rail system for this country. I am not

:50:00.:50:05.

going to rehearse because of the shortness of time what has happened

:50:06.:50:12.

since rail privatisation. What I can say is that, due to the private

:50:13.:50:16.

sector, and government, there has been massive investment in our rail

:50:17.:50:21.

network and, because I'm more generous than the front bench

:50:22.:50:27.

spokesman sitting opposite, I will accept that on the last Labour

:50:28.:50:34.

government they began the process of investing in our Railways to make

:50:35.:50:38.

them fit for purpose. I would ask that they were equally generous in

:50:39.:50:43.

accepting that we are spending billions and billions of pounds from

:50:44.:50:48.

a variety of sources in investing in building on that improvement to make

:50:49.:50:55.

sure we have a proper rail service. In control period five, ?38 billion

:50:56.:51:01.

is being spent. Now, of course, Moore has got to be done, but we are

:51:02.:51:07.

investing in the future, investing in passengers to make sure we have a

:51:08.:51:15.

proper railway and to go back to a nationalised railway service, anyone

:51:16.:51:18.

who suggests that, is living in cloud cuckoo land and is driven by

:51:19.:51:26.

dogma, not by reality. I am grateful, Mr Deputy Speaker. Can I

:51:27.:51:31.

also say what a pleasure it is to follow our new Labour colleague from

:51:32.:51:37.

Oldham, here in this House today? I will be as quick as I can, but my

:51:38.:51:43.

main contention today is that the cost of travelling on trains to and

:51:44.:51:50.

from my constituency on the Thames league railway which runs services

:51:51.:51:57.

through London and the south-east is a complete and utter rip-off, given

:51:58.:52:01.

the dreadful service that commuters have been receiving over the past

:52:02.:52:08.

few weeks and months. I stand not to make party political points on this

:52:09.:52:14.

issue am I just want, and commuters listening to this, just want

:52:15.:52:19.

answers. To put it in context, I want to pay tribute to transport

:52:20.:52:26.

focus, and all at the campaign for better transport, who had been

:52:27.:52:29.

highlighting the hell that has been given to commuters. According to

:52:30.:52:35.

transport focus's most recent satisfaction service, the group that

:52:36.:52:41.

runs Southern, has the worst for overall satisfaction. According to

:52:42.:52:55.

two which, -- according to Which, the satisfaction is at rock bottom.

:52:56.:53:04.

If you look at the most recent statistics for January, delays are

:53:05.:53:10.

attributed to Network Rail. Members on all side of this House, we have

:53:11.:53:14.

met with the executives concerned, have been provided with excuse after

:53:15.:53:18.

excuse, broken promise after broken promise, and we have seen no change

:53:19.:53:24.

whatsoever. Instead, we are given the general excuse of big

:53:25.:53:28.

transformation works at London Bridge causing problems, industrial

:53:29.:53:32.

nation issues, historic under investment in the structure and the

:53:33.:53:38.

Quebec city 's of running a big franchise. That is all well and good

:53:39.:53:47.

-- the complexities. We have a company here that has failed to

:53:48.:53:49.

recruit drivers, failed to police maintain its rolling stock, and

:53:50.:53:55.

people deserve answers. Instead of the same oldest uses, I want a

:53:56.:53:59.

proper deadline set for them to provide a decent service to

:54:00.:54:05.

constituents, I would like to see services and third to TfL in the

:54:06.:54:12.

medium term and I would like to see Crossrail Two come to my

:54:13.:54:19.

constituency. Want to get even -- once we get decent services,

:54:20.:54:26.

ministers can make the argument for ?1000 for a season ticket in my

:54:27.:54:32.

constituency being justified. I wanted to talk in this debate today

:54:33.:54:38.

because the situation with the Midland mainline has been well

:54:39.:54:42.

charted and many people have talked about it. But particularly white is

:54:43.:54:46.

important that the progress of this Budget is going to go ahead,

:54:47.:54:49.

notwithstanding what is in the motion today. The reason why it will

:54:50.:54:54.

go ahead is because the centre of excellence that Derby is, for the

:54:55.:55:01.

rail industry, rail innovation, over 200 companies around Derby are based

:55:02.:55:07.

solely on the rail industry. We are the best placed area in the whole of

:55:08.:55:12.

the country for opportunities for training, for innovation, for a

:55:13.:55:20.

college, what ever it may be. The Government I think ought to listen a

:55:21.:55:25.

little better about the opportunities there are to make sure

:55:26.:55:29.

that the sorts of people growing up around the Derby area, who

:55:30.:55:34.

understand about rail, who really have it in their DNA, to get the

:55:35.:55:41.

best products for the future, for Crossrail, for HS2 and HS three

:55:42.:55:46.

going up to Scotland. It is something we all want to see. These

:55:47.:55:52.

are fantastic opportunities, and so I will not take up any more time. I

:55:53.:55:56.

will congratulate the gentleman for Oldham for a one full maiden speech.

:55:57.:56:00.

It was a pleasure to hear so much history, but he has got a bit of

:56:01.:56:04.

doing to do in the future as well. Thank you. I promise to be snappy

:56:05.:56:13.

but can I offer congratulations for Mike Noble friend for his fantastic

:56:14.:56:16.

maiden speech? It is a pleasure to be in the chamber for it he has

:56:17.:56:26.

obvious love for his constituency and I'm sure he will make a good

:56:27.:56:32.

conurbation in this place. You never miss an opportunity to talk about

:56:33.:56:38.

the rail but also the Severn Bridge tolls, which has been the subject of

:56:39.:56:42.

many debates in this House. I know it will continue to be so until the

:56:43.:56:47.

Government reveals what its plan for the tolls in future are. Something

:56:48.:56:54.

like 10,000 people in Newport to meet over the bridges every day and

:56:55.:57:00.

as highlighted ably on the front bench today, the cost of commuting

:57:01.:57:04.

has increased substantially. I will give way. Would my honourable friend

:57:05.:57:11.

agree that it is not just the people that live in her constituency who

:57:12.:57:15.

are affected but every person who travels over the bridge into God's

:57:16.:57:20.

own country, they are exploited. They are exploded by the tolls and

:57:21.:57:26.

it is a good parent to trade -- it is a deterrent.

:57:27.:57:31.

She is absolutely right and I thank her for adding weight to the

:57:32.:57:38.

campaign. My constituents are basically trapped. They either have

:57:39.:57:43.

to pay rising rail flares all pay the bridge tolls. -- rail fares.

:57:44.:57:51.

Since 2010, season tickets for commuters have risen by 25%. Newport

:57:52.:57:56.

to London, commuters pay ?2000 a year more than in 2010. From Newport

:57:57.:58:01.

to Bristol Temple Meads, it has gone up by 27%. Demand for this service

:58:02.:58:10.

is growing fast and we see no improvement in services. Trades are

:58:11.:58:17.

overcrowded, not enough carriages. -- trains are. That is the feedback

:58:18.:58:24.

I get every week. Carriages are overflowing, many times they are

:58:25.:58:28.

left on the platform, simply no capacity. There is an alternative.

:58:29.:58:35.

That's a little issue raised with me most frequently. Since 2011, the

:58:36.:58:40.

bridge tolls have gone up by some 20%. This matters for my

:58:41.:58:46.

constituents. They have seen an increase of those working full time

:58:47.:58:51.

of only 2.4% in their wages. My fundamental point being that the

:58:52.:58:59.

money taken by seven River crossings is protected, what's my -- whilst my

:59:00.:59:11.

constituents is not. I very much look forward to the transport

:59:12.:59:16.

Minister tackling that for my constituency. It is either Israel or

:59:17.:59:20.

the southern bridge tolls and we need to know see what the

:59:21.:59:23.

government's plans are as we reach the end of the session and the

:59:24.:59:34.

bridges return to ownership in 2018. An excellent speech. I'm sure he

:59:35.:59:38.

will be returning the front bench sooner than normal. He made an

:59:39.:59:45.

excellent speech. She made out what I was going to say. I was going to

:59:46.:59:50.

say, I am just about old enough to remember British rail and I remember

:59:51.:59:54.

the fact that if you are wearing a light-coloured suit trousers, he got

:59:55.:00:02.

them dirty. I remember carriages literally covered in excrement. That

:00:03.:00:06.

was the state when it was in public hands. There can be no doubt that in

:00:07.:00:11.

the last 20 years, the standard of the railways and the rolling stock

:00:12.:00:14.

and the whole thing has moved forward. You simply don't get the

:00:15.:00:20.

British rail catering jokes on the circuits used to get, because it is

:00:21.:00:27.

a thing of the past. On that note of investment, I just want to make this

:00:28.:00:31.

point. When we talk about what has happened to the railways and there

:00:32.:00:34.

were still a lot of work to do and I know my friends on the front bench

:00:35.:00:38.

are looking closely at ticketing. There is a little work to be. Is the

:00:39.:00:45.

also have to bear in mind that we need to be creating more track. If

:00:46.:00:50.

you look at my city in Leeds, and integrated tram system is absolutely

:00:51.:00:58.

vital. That will never be built by government and public ownership. It

:00:59.:01:01.

can only be built by attracting investment from the private sector.

:01:02.:01:05.

So that people can make cheaper journeys into the city centre than

:01:06.:01:11.

they have to make now. So it can be more reliable. So want to make that

:01:12.:01:16.

brief point that investment is vital in the railways and it is something

:01:17.:01:20.

that cannot be delivered in public ownership, as was proved time and

:01:21.:01:29.

time again under British rail. Thank you. It has been a delight to hear

:01:30.:01:36.

the maiden speech by my right honourable friend. An insightful

:01:37.:01:41.

contribution to the debate. I was very pleased to be able to hear

:01:42.:01:45.

that. Let me make two or three points. I am extremely concerned

:01:46.:01:53.

about the rail fares rocketing by a staggering 25% since 2010. A lot of

:01:54.:02:00.

my constituents rely on rail travel to commute in and out of Manchester

:02:01.:02:05.

and Greater Manchester. Secondly, I am concerned about the government

:02:06.:02:11.

using the retail pricing index to calculate writers in regulated

:02:12.:02:14.

fares. Perhaps the Minister can tell us whether he thinks it is fair not

:02:15.:02:21.

to use RPI to make those calculations. Perhaps he can explain

:02:22.:02:28.

to me and my constituents why they pay 20% higher fares for a similar

:02:29.:02:32.

journey that Bolton constituents make. A peak return fare from Bolton

:02:33.:02:38.

to Manchester Victoria will set you back ?6 40 and yet for a very

:02:39.:02:42.

similar journey from Rochdale to Manchester Victoria, you pay ?7. Why

:02:43.:02:53.

is that? Is the chairman, Richard agreement, points out, this is

:02:54.:03:00.

artificially high. -- as the chairman. -- you pay ?7 70. Perhaps

:03:01.:03:09.

he can share his thoughts on that. Thank you. My congratulations to the

:03:10.:03:15.

member for Oldham West and Brighton. I wish him well. -- Royton. Very

:03:16.:03:26.

brief time I have. I wanted to inject a degree of realism into the

:03:27.:03:31.

debate about rail fares. The first thing is that whoever owns the

:03:32.:03:35.

railways, there is a balance to be struck about what the passenger and

:03:36.:03:41.

general taxation contributes. If, as the motion before us indicates, that

:03:42.:03:45.

the party opposite wants to see the passenger contribution decrease,

:03:46.:03:48.

they had to say which taxes will increase to pay for that. Or spell

:03:49.:03:52.

out which part of the common spending on the railway will be cut.

:03:53.:03:55.

And if you look at what the current ticket price... From the come in

:03:56.:04:07.

pairs that are paid, the majority goes on salaries, maintaining and

:04:08.:04:11.

improving the track and we have the safest railway in Europe. I cannot

:04:12.:04:16.

imagine they want compromise that. And it goes on investment and new

:04:17.:04:22.

rolling stock. The profit margin is tiny. 3% of any plant that is spent.

:04:23.:04:31.

And that is... That funds innovation and development in the railway.

:04:32.:04:36.

Which we have seen doubled in the last 20 years. That is the reality

:04:37.:04:40.

of the railways today. I had hoped we would have a more sensible debate

:04:41.:04:45.

about the new technology and innovations in the railway. Time

:04:46.:04:51.

does not permit that. The philosophical debate about

:04:52.:04:54.

renationalising railways has obliterated the time to talk about

:04:55.:04:58.

that. That is what we should be talking about. One final point, I

:04:59.:05:02.

want to knock on the head this myth that Britain has the highest rail

:05:03.:05:07.

fares in Europe. That is simply not the case. I would invite the house

:05:08.:05:13.

to look at one wonderful website, The Man In Seat 61, you will find

:05:14.:05:24.

that in 85% of the cases, UK rail fares are either the same cheaper

:05:25.:05:28.

than those on the continent. Can I also congratulate the honourable

:05:29.:05:37.

gentleman on his thumping of Ukip at the by-election. That is pleasing

:05:38.:05:43.

for all of us. I do want to say about the infantile manner in which

:05:44.:05:47.

his party has approached the debate 's evening. I would never trust the

:05:48.:05:53.

Tories with the railway, but I wouldn't trust the opposition with a

:05:54.:05:57.

train set by the way they have carried themselves this evening. The

:05:58.:06:01.

mistake they have made such a schoolboy howler as to accuse the

:06:02.:06:07.

Scottish Government of not using a power that not only it doesn't have,

:06:08.:06:11.

but that every single Labour member with the exception of the honourable

:06:12.:06:17.

gentleman for Oldham, along with the Conservatives, voted explicitly to

:06:18.:06:21.

stop Scotland from having, during the Scotland Bill debate. They

:06:22.:06:24.

almost give brass necks a bad name. There are two things I think my

:06:25.:06:30.

constituents would like to mention. One is about smart ticketing, time,

:06:31.:06:36.

when you travel by rail or bus, but the journey, right from the point of

:06:37.:06:41.

payment, seems like a century that you are travelling. People want to

:06:42.:06:47.

travel using apps to make life easier, rather than hanging around

:06:48.:06:51.

queueing for a piece of paper. The second point I would make, which I

:06:52.:06:56.

have made many times is in relation to hate as too. -- HS2. We want to

:06:57.:07:09.

see as United with London, because it is our closest capital in the

:07:10.:07:15.

world. We want them to benefit from greater connectivity. We want the

:07:16.:07:19.

United Kingdom to up its game so we have a high-speed network that

:07:20.:07:25.

serves all of the British Isles. We need to catch up with France, Spain,

:07:26.:07:31.

China, if we are going to take the high-speed debate seriously. Those

:07:32.:07:36.

are my final remarks. I would like -- like the previous speaker, I

:07:37.:07:40.

regret we do not have that I do have a serious debate. I only hope we

:07:41.:07:44.

have the opportunity again in the future. Can I also congratulate the

:07:45.:07:50.

honourable member for Oldham West and Royton. Like it or not, the

:07:51.:07:57.

government has launched the largest modernisation of rail since

:07:58.:08:04.

Victorian times. It is absolutely crucial to economic growth in the

:08:05.:08:07.

electroporation of the great Western line is in motion and talks like the

:08:08.:08:15.

members opposite are damaging. The Chancellor and Prime Minister has

:08:16.:08:20.

admitted to the electrification of the line of Swansea. This was

:08:21.:08:24.

confirmed to me by the Wales Office Minister last week. If I may, with

:08:25.:08:32.

this Conservative government, it will be electrified to Swansea.

:08:33.:08:38.

Under 13 years of Labour rule, how much was electrified? What a single

:08:39.:08:45.

mile was electrified. -- not a single mile. This stands in stark

:08:46.:08:50.

contrast to the record and commitment of this government to

:08:51.:08:55.

Wales. The record of the Welsh Labour government speaks for itself.

:08:56.:09:00.

The integrated transport system is poor, in terms it doesn't exist as a

:09:01.:09:04.

fully integrated transport system. We need to look no further than the

:09:05.:09:08.

bus system is there to see the issues. One gave evidence in October

:09:09.:09:17.

2013 saying that the current state of the bus sector is evidently not

:09:18.:09:22.

successful, shown by the decline in bus usage, compared to other areas

:09:23.:09:31.

of the UK. Wales lacks behind the rest of the UK in nearly every

:09:32.:09:42.

economic measure. -- lags behind. I can only say that I am very grateful

:09:43.:09:47.

to my right honourable friend for the system that we are having now

:09:48.:09:53.

down to Swansea of electrification. I've only got two down. One minute

:09:54.:10:00.

will be enough to pay tribute to the honourable friend for his maiden

:10:01.:10:09.

speech. And welcome him to the exclusive group of by-election MPs.

:10:10.:10:12.

And I fully support any project to do with the Middleton 's birth.

:10:13.:10:22.

Ministers say the -- passengers need to realise the price of comfortable

:10:23.:10:30.

commuting. Many of us to not need to look around, because of overcrowding

:10:31.:10:33.

and uncomfortable services. Many and uncomfortable services. Many

:10:34.:10:39.

constituents work and study near my constituency. Buses are overcrowded

:10:40.:10:46.

and take too long. Passengers were told higher fares would pay for

:10:47.:10:51.

improvements. But that has been broken. The Department for Transport

:10:52.:10:57.

has made it clear that it wants an expansion of driver only operation

:10:58.:11:01.

on our trains, with no guard on board to assist passengers. This is

:11:02.:11:05.

a retrograde step for passenger safety. I would like to ask the

:11:06.:11:09.

government and the Department for Transport to reconsider about driver

:11:10.:11:16.

only operation. Thank you. I apologise if there has been any

:11:17.:11:21.

confusion. Transport is essential in providing people with access to

:11:22.:11:28.

work, food, and leisure activities. Especially in rural constituencies.

:11:29.:11:32.

The reality is elderly, young and unemployed rely on public transport

:11:33.:11:36.

and struggle to reach the places they need to go. Because of the lack

:11:37.:11:47.

of accessibility, most households are dependent on cars. So drivers

:11:48.:11:52.

are spending more on fuel and paying higher fuel costs. Rising motoring

:11:53.:11:57.

costs undermine the sustainability of rural communities. And they lead

:11:58.:12:08.

to increased social inclusion. -- social exclusion. They impact

:12:09.:12:09.

greatly on public transport. Some rural areas already suffer from

:12:10.:12:20.

population decline, poverty and deprivation. They are less likely to

:12:21.:12:25.

be able to afford a car and rely on public transport. In my

:12:26.:12:32.

constituency, we have villages that no longer exist. We have already

:12:33.:12:40.

talked about the Labour Party being in power for 13 years and not

:12:41.:12:45.

addressing the issue mentioned in their motion today. A change in this

:12:46.:12:50.

legislation will enable us in Scotland to ensure delivery of a

:12:51.:12:54.

real service that delivers maximum social and economic benefits and

:12:55.:12:59.

address our needs. Instead of attacking the Scottish government

:13:00.:13:01.

for something they have no control over, but side of this House should

:13:02.:13:05.

be applauding them for what they have achieved, despite constant

:13:06.:13:16.

cuts. Let's ask it on with it. As we debate the cost of travel today, at

:13:17.:13:20.

this were a moment, thousands of our fellow citizens in all

:13:21.:13:24.

constituencies are in buses, they are on trains, they are in cars and

:13:25.:13:31.

on bikes. The quality of the transport system is relied on

:13:32.:13:36.

everyday and that is why this matters. It is brought home to me

:13:37.:13:44.

earlier this year, on a train, across the aisle from me, a young

:13:45.:13:47.

woman who worked in a supermarket near Ipswich station was telling her

:13:48.:13:53.

friend Lumley about the shock she got when she purchased a ticket that

:13:54.:13:57.

morning, an extra 60p. Annexed to ?3 a week. -- an extra ?3. For millions

:13:58.:14:09.

of our constituents, every penny counts was that we have not heard

:14:10.:14:14.

enough today, but Italy about the problems on buses. Let me start by

:14:15.:14:25.

welcoming the first contribution of the member for Oldham West and

:14:26.:14:28.

frightened. We enjoyed campaigning in his

:14:29.:14:36.

constituency in the autumn. It already made a very powerful pact on

:14:37.:14:42.

the political scene, for his work leading the local council. Is God to

:14:43.:14:49.

be sure and pointed out some of the weaknesses in the devolution

:14:50.:14:53.

policies. We also had excellent contributions and not enough today

:14:54.:15:00.

from my right honourable friend, the member from Streatham, pointing at

:15:01.:15:10.

the weaknesses in his constituency. What all of this confirms is what we

:15:11.:15:14.

already knew, that rail and bus fares have shot up since the party

:15:15.:15:18.

opposite came to power. We will all trade figures on these things, but

:15:19.:15:22.

the key figure is to compare fares and wages. What it really costs

:15:23.:15:32.

people. The truth is fares have risen three times faster than wages.

:15:33.:15:35.

That is why it hurts. There are some who do not feel the pain. The

:15:36.:15:39.

secondary estate seems impervious to it. He set some months ago and I

:15:40.:15:45.

quote, more transport, better transport, under our majority

:15:46.:15:47.

government, it is happening. Has he really forgotten about the broken

:15:48.:15:52.

election pledges to provide key Brits in the North, as the ballot

:15:53.:15:59.

boxes closed? Or was it just paused? Isn't it interesting how the

:16:00.:16:05.

Government has introduced new words into the lexicon. Paused sounds

:16:06.:16:11.

innocuous, but it could be an epitaph, a country on pause. We have

:16:12.:16:17.

two thirds of councils cutting local bus services. Over 2400 local

:16:18.:16:23.

authority supported bus routes cut or downgraded. We could go on a

:16:24.:16:26.

national tour of bus shelters where there are no buses, or maybe they

:16:27.:16:32.

are paused as well. He is making some excellent points and I wonder

:16:33.:16:35.

if you could comment on the introduction of a stealth fare

:16:36.:16:38.

increase. People expected rail fares to go up in January, but we must not

:16:39.:16:43.

forget that Northern Rail, this government introduced an evening

:16:44.:16:50.

peak which, particularly hit part-time workers and students and

:16:51.:16:53.

caused chaos in railway stations across the North. That was induced

:16:54.:16:59.

about a year ago. In September. Indeed, and she makes a strong

:17:00.:17:06.

point. We know when it comes to buses, the party opposite will say

:17:07.:17:07.

that these are local decisions. But that these are local decisions. But

:17:08.:17:14.

we know the truth, that by slashing budgets for local councils, they are

:17:15.:17:21.

passing the buck. They trooped through the lobbies imposing those

:17:22.:17:24.

very cuts on local councils. They believe you have to take

:17:25.:17:28.

responsibility. On this site, we strongly believe in the principle

:17:29.:17:31.

that local communities should have a say over their public transport, and

:17:32.:17:34.

we have long been committed to that. What the Government is offering for

:17:35.:17:40.

bus services is a sham. They are offering funding while taking it

:17:41.:17:49.

away with the other. A further election of 24% is to come. Local

:17:50.:17:52.

authorities have been left with tradable choice but to cut to the

:17:53.:17:58.

bone. It seems that the devolution agenda is little more than a front

:17:59.:18:05.

for public transport cuts. This is not a Northern powerhouse, it is a

:18:06.:18:14.

Northern power cut. When the Government's bus service operators

:18:15.:18:20.

grant, effectively used as a device bus fares, was cut in 2010, the

:18:21.:18:24.

Department for Transport one that small towns would be worst affected.

:18:25.:18:28.

They certainly got that right. They were. What needs to be done? We need

:18:29.:18:34.

do not carry on as we are. It has been fascinating to watch the U-turn

:18:35.:18:39.

being carried out by the DFT as they cottoned on to the fact we are being

:18:40.:18:45.

taken for a ride by many of the bus operators. They are now trying to be

:18:46.:18:56.

Labour's policy of bus regulation. At the election, we promised the

:18:57.:19:00.

biggest shake-up of the bus industry in years. How does the bus operators

:19:01.:19:06.

must have been to find that it is a Conservative government that is

:19:07.:19:10.

looking to learn from the positive experience in London and applied

:19:11.:19:14.

across the country. People may be sceptical about this conversion but

:19:15.:19:25.

we weight bus legislation and we hope for councils to have... The

:19:26.:19:31.

status quo is not working. Private bus operators have abandoned us

:19:32.:19:37.

services that and be unprofitable, leaving the most honourable in our

:19:38.:19:40.

society stranded. We want to gift amenities real genuine power to plan

:19:41.:19:46.

fares and timetables and reflect local needs. Although some bus

:19:47.:19:51.

operators have persisted moves towards coordination, these powers

:19:52.:19:58.

are in power in London. If they are good enough for London then they are

:19:59.:20:04.

good enough for any other area that was. The alternative, leading bus

:20:05.:20:10.

services to deteriorate, is no alternative at all. The primers

:20:11.:20:14.

ester made many promises which have not stood up to scrutiny. People

:20:15.:20:21.

missed older people that the free bus pass would be maintained. As so

:20:22.:20:24.

often with this Prime Minister, it is for them to read the small print.

:20:25.:20:28.

He kept the bus pass but said nothing about keeping the bus. The

:20:29.:20:32.

number of concessionary passes has gone up, but the number of

:20:33.:20:35.

concessionary bus journeys has gone down. A bus pass but no bus. How

:20:36.:20:41.

useful is that, exactly? Mr Speaker, we need a better way.

:20:42.:20:49.

Thank you. This is only the third opposition day debate on transport

:20:50.:20:55.

since 2010. But this government are always keen to debate transport

:20:56.:20:57.

issues at the House. Let's hope, maybe like London buses, two will

:20:58.:21:02.

come along very soon. The honourable member for Inverness for the SNP

:21:03.:21:09.

talked about the importance of aviation. We know how important this

:21:10.:21:18.

is for local committees. That is why we are adding routes to the capital.

:21:19.:21:25.

I will move onto the next speaker. The honourable lady for Redditch

:21:26.:21:29.

expert help of men spending is delivering for her region,

:21:30.:21:33.

particularly the Birmingham area, from HS2 and the capacity it will

:21:34.:21:36.

deliver. The honourable member for Oldham West and frighten, in an

:21:37.:21:40.

excellent maiden speech, paid tribute to his predecessor. He has a

:21:41.:21:45.

track record of delivering locally, which am sure had a lot to do with

:21:46.:21:50.

his ilex and success. -- his by-election success. I'm sure that

:21:51.:21:56.

his sons will be very proud of their dad today. The honourable member for

:21:57.:22:04.

Chelmsford gave it a reality check about the bad old days of British

:22:05.:22:07.

Rail. If members opposite were paying attention, they might want to

:22:08.:22:11.

remove their rose tinted spectacles. The honourable member for Streatham

:22:12.:22:19.

spoke for hard pressed to meters. If he cared about them, you would not

:22:20.:22:22.

be pushing for commuters. The honourable member for South

:22:23.:22:25.

Derbyshire welcomed HS2 and investment in the Midland mainline.

:22:26.:22:33.

There was a highlight of the cost of the seven crossing increasing.

:22:34.:22:44.

The woman but spoke about Leeds, the biggest European city that has now

:22:45.:22:54.

integrated travel system of its own. The honourable member for Rochdale

:22:55.:22:58.

spoke about how we should link their rises, this is inflation plus zero.

:22:59.:23:02.

This is some thing that the previous government failed to do. Whichever

:23:03.:23:05.

measure we use, it is a board that players rise more slowly under this

:23:06.:23:11.

covenant -- it is important that fares rise more slowly under this

:23:12.:23:16.

government. The big question the opposition needs to address is how

:23:17.:23:19.

they will pay for all of these promises. They could not make that

:23:20.:23:23.

argument in 2015 and eight spec they will fail again in 2020. -- I expect

:23:24.:23:26.

they will fail. I have to say, I did check out what

:23:27.:23:36.

it will cost might Jordan to return from university for Easter this

:23:37.:23:39.

summer. My daughter, who lives in London, can travel one-way from

:23:40.:23:44.

King's Cross to York for as the tall as ?20 if she decides to depart at

:23:45.:23:51.

7am. Being a student, takes that she will want to travel later. At

:23:52.:23:55.

lunchtime, she can pay ?38 for a ticket, but that gets a one third

:23:56.:24:01.

discount as it didn't, so she can come for ?25. That is on the east

:24:02.:24:12.

coast, run Bygott macro virgin. -- run by Virgin.

:24:13.:24:19.

I'm not sure if, just before the election in 2010, the outgoing chief

:24:20.:24:25.

secretary was following a tradition or setting a precedent when he left

:24:26.:24:29.

that now infamous note, saying, I am afraid there is no money. How

:24:30.:24:33.

refreshingly honest. I thought I would follow suit. My last date in

:24:34.:24:39.

the Department for Transport, as I packed up my personal effects before

:24:40.:24:42.

leaving last year, having paid particular attention to the opinion

:24:43.:24:49.

polls, I hope my replacement would be cheered by a message. Hewitt is,

:24:50.:24:54.

and it reads, there is money for infrastructure, thanks to our

:24:55.:25:01.

long-term economic plan. I'm sure that is one of the reasons why we

:25:02.:25:05.

have had so few opposition day debate on transport in the last 5.5

:25:06.:25:13.

years. ours is a record of delivering, compared to under

:25:14.:25:14.

Labour. Hornby delivered more electrified

:25:15.:25:26.

rail network in the time that Labour was in government. The investment in

:25:27.:25:34.

my notes is being delivered, 4000 new carriages, 38 .5 billion pounds

:25:35.:25:43.

to improve railways. 6 billion to address the pothole backlog that we

:25:44.:25:50.

inherited and high-speed rail to free up passenger capacity and

:25:51.:25:57.

address a shrink in our capacity to Scotland. HS2 boron to Glasgow from

:25:58.:26:01.

day one. There will be Scottish crews manning trains in Glasgow from

:26:02.:26:06.

day one. When I go to Brussels, it is our franchising model that

:26:07.:26:10.

countries like Italy and Spain want to emulate. British train companies

:26:11.:26:15.

are winning franchises in Germany. They can see how the franchise

:26:16.:26:18.

system is delivering better services, new rolling stock, smart

:26:19.:26:22.

ticketing at more user-friendly routes. The question now be put. As

:26:23.:26:28.

many of that opinion must say yes. To the contrary, no. The ayes have

:26:29.:26:39.

it. The question is on the paper. Division! Clear the lobbies.

:26:40.:26:47.

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