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THE SPEAKER: Urgent question, Andy Burnham. To ask the Home Secretary | :00:07. | :00:16. | |
to make a statement setting out the details of the Border Force budget | :00:17. | :00:24. | |
for 2016-17. Home Secretary. Thank you, Mr Speaker. The first piracy of | :00:25. | :00:28. | |
a Government is the safety and security of citizens. The Government | :00:29. | :00:32. | |
has was "The UK border priority and we will never compromise on keeping | :00:33. | :00:37. | |
the people of this country safe from terrorism, criminals he headed eagle | :00:38. | :00:41. | |
immigration. The Chancellor of the Exchequer will publish the Treasury | :00:42. | :00:45. | |
main supply estimates in just over an hour's time. That will set out | :00:46. | :00:51. | |
allocations for the whole of Government, including Border Force, | :00:52. | :00:54. | |
for the 2016-17 financial year. In advance of those figures, I can | :00:55. | :00:59. | |
inform the House that these estimates will show the indicative | :01:00. | :01:04. | |
budget for Border Force is ?558.1 million in 2016-17, a 0.4% reduction | :01:05. | :01:10. | |
in the overall resource ending, compared to the 15-16 supplementary | :01:11. | :01:16. | |
estimate. At the same time, increase capital spending on the border by | :01:17. | :01:22. | |
just over a 17%, from 40.1 only in pounds in 2015-16, to an estimated | :01:23. | :01:30. | |
?68.3 million, in 2016-17. That means Border Force painting, drawing | :01:31. | :01:35. | |
tents and purposes, is protected, compared to 2015-16. With increased | :01:36. | :01:38. | |
capital investment to improve the technology of the border, to improve | :01:39. | :01:40. | |
security and intelligence and strengthen control. Over the next | :01:41. | :01:46. | |
four years, we will invest ?130 million in Saint of the art | :01:47. | :01:50. | |
technology of the border. Since I became Secretary, we have engaged in | :01:51. | :01:56. | |
an ambitious programme to keep this country safe and reform the Borders. | :01:57. | :02:00. | |
We abolish the dysfunctional UK Border Agency in the last | :02:01. | :02:03. | |
Parliament, set up by the last Labour Government, and made Border | :02:04. | :02:06. | |
Force directly accountable to ministers within the Home Office. | :02:07. | :02:10. | |
Since then, Border Force has transformed its working practices, | :02:11. | :02:12. | |
command and control and leadership and we have invested in new | :02:13. | :02:18. | |
technology, like heartbeat monitors at freight ports. This improves | :02:19. | :02:20. | |
security and prevent illegal entry to the UK. It benefits passengers | :02:21. | :02:26. | |
and delivers efficiency. At the same time, effort closely with my French | :02:27. | :02:29. | |
counterpart, Bernard Cazeneuve, to secure the juxtaposed controls in | :02:30. | :02:34. | |
Calais and reduce the number of migrants attempting to reach the UK | :02:35. | :02:39. | |
and safeguard drivers and hauliers travelling through those ports. We | :02:40. | :02:43. | |
have developed a robust and intelligence led approach to | :02:44. | :02:46. | |
organised crime at the border, working closely with the National | :02:47. | :02:50. | |
Crime Agency we established in 2012. We have supported greater | :02:51. | :02:53. | |
calibration between counter terrorism police and Border Force, | :02:54. | :02:55. | |
while increasing counter terrorism budgets, to prevent foreign fighters | :02:56. | :02:59. | |
returning and dangerous terrorists travelling to the UK. These reforms | :03:00. | :03:04. | |
are working. Order security has been enhanced, Border Force continues to | :03:05. | :03:07. | |
form 100% checks on scheduled passengers arriving at primary | :03:08. | :03:10. | |
checkpoint in the UK, where passengers are deemed a threat to | :03:11. | :03:15. | |
the safety, we can and do exclude them from the UK, and in total, | :03:16. | :03:18. | |
99,000 people have been refused entry to the UK since 2010. We are | :03:19. | :03:24. | |
disrupting more organised crime in the UK border than ever before. In | :03:25. | :03:28. | |
the past year, Border Force seized nearly eight tonnes of Class A | :03:29. | :03:33. | |
drugs, more than 2.5 times as much as in 2009-10. Meanwhile, legitimate | :03:34. | :03:37. | |
passengers and hauliers of goods continue to be provided with | :03:38. | :03:40. | |
excellent levels of service. The Government remains committed to | :03:41. | :03:44. | |
making further investment were necessary, to exploit technology and | :03:45. | :03:47. | |
strengthen controls, and in doing so, Border Force will grow more | :03:48. | :03:51. | |
efficient, year-on-year, while improving security for the safety of | :03:52. | :03:54. | |
citizens, businesses and the country as a whole. Andy Burnham. Finally, | :03:55. | :04:04. | |
Mr Speaker, an answer. From the Home Secretary. And, yet another U-turn. | :04:05. | :04:10. | |
Let's be clear, it is Labour pressure that has brought her to | :04:11. | :04:15. | |
this House today and Labour pressure that has made her back down on her | :04:16. | :04:21. | |
planned deeper cuts to the UK border. Just as they forced her to | :04:22. | :04:26. | |
U-turn on police funding, we have now forced her to U-turn on the | :04:27. | :04:30. | |
Border Force budget. She has spent the last two weeks ducking and | :04:31. | :04:33. | |
diving, refusing to answer questions that I put her in this House and on | :04:34. | :04:40. | |
the chair of the Home Affairs Select Committee, put to her by senior | :04:41. | :04:47. | |
officials. I pay tribute to his determination. Why cannot she answer | :04:48. | :04:50. | |
our questions? She has been furiously backpedalling for the last | :04:51. | :04:55. | |
two weeks, patching up holes in the budget. Let's be clear, about what | :04:56. | :04:58. | |
has just been announced. She has just announced it has, a cut, a | :04:59. | :05:03. | |
renewed cut to the Border Force budget. And let me put it into | :05:04. | :05:09. | |
context, she has announced the budget of ?558 million, in 2012-13, | :05:10. | :05:16. | |
the budget was ?617 million. So, the budget is done by over ?50 million, | :05:17. | :05:21. | |
on her watch. That is this Home Secretary's record on border | :05:22. | :05:24. | |
funding. How can she justify at? When the terror threat has been | :05:25. | :05:29. | |
increasing all the time? Will she guarantee, on the back of the budget | :05:30. | :05:33. | |
announced today, that there will be no cuts to front-line immigration | :05:34. | :05:37. | |
officers, nor will they be replaced with less trained staff? But the | :05:38. | :05:40. | |
bigger question is, whether the budget she has announced is anywhere | :05:41. | :05:45. | |
near enough? Today, a group of the most eminent police and | :05:46. | :05:48. | |
counterterrorism experts have written an open letter, saying | :05:49. | :05:52. | |
attacks in Paris and Brussels must be a wake-up call for the British | :05:53. | :05:57. | |
Government on lax border security. Worryingly, the letter reveals that | :05:58. | :06:01. | |
the National Crime Agency has evidenced that people traffickers | :06:02. | :06:05. | |
are now specifically targeting weaker seaports, as I have | :06:06. | :06:08. | |
repeatedly warned her. Though she accept the call from this group of | :06:09. | :06:12. | |
experts for a review of border security and for extra resources to | :06:13. | :06:16. | |
plug the gaps? Those gaps are very real, a whistle-blower working at | :06:17. | :06:20. | |
the port of Immingham, the country but my largest breadboard, has been | :06:21. | :06:24. | |
in touch with me to reveal that the staff of ferry companies carrying | :06:25. | :06:26. | |
out her border exit checks are simply not trained to do it, the | :06:27. | :06:31. | |
passports of lorry drivers are not checked on arrival by anyone and | :06:32. | :06:39. | |
worst of all, school leavers are now being recruited to check passports, | :06:40. | :06:41. | |
replacing experienced border officers. Border security on the | :06:42. | :06:45. | |
cheap. This is the reality of what is happening in Britain's Borders | :06:46. | :06:49. | |
today under this Home Secretary. It is the direct consequence of cuts | :06:50. | :06:52. | |
that she has already made to the UK border in her time in office and | :06:53. | :06:57. | |
unbelievably, she wanted to make even further cuts to the UK border, | :06:58. | :07:02. | |
before we, on the side of the House, stopped her. She has spent the last | :07:03. | :07:05. | |
two weeks running scared, scrabbling for loose change behind the back of | :07:06. | :07:10. | |
the Home Office over, but worse, she has weakened our borders. Damaged | :07:11. | :07:15. | |
security and has only now pledged to stop the cuts. On an issue of such | :07:16. | :07:18. | |
importance to the British public, she is going to have to do a lot | :07:19. | :07:25. | |
better than this. Home Secretary. Well, I have to say to the right | :07:26. | :07:28. | |
honourable gentleman, that in so much of what he is said, he said he | :07:29. | :07:31. | |
does not know what he is talking about. He talks about U-turns on | :07:32. | :07:36. | |
funding. The only U-turn on funding we have seen is Labour front bench | :07:37. | :07:41. | |
that claims now to have wanted police funding to remain steady and | :07:42. | :07:44. | |
not be cut, when they were actually suggesting that police funding would | :07:45. | :07:49. | |
take 10% cuts. He has talked about border security and the National | :07:50. | :07:54. | |
Crime Agency. I might comment him that it was the last Government, the | :07:55. | :07:59. | |
Coalition Government and me as Home Secretary, who set up the National | :08:00. | :08:03. | |
Crime Agency. The reason we have a border command that is looking at | :08:04. | :08:07. | |
serious and organised crime across our borders is because of what the | :08:08. | :08:09. | |
Conservatives have done in Government. Labour did none of that | :08:10. | :08:11. | |
in 13 long years. The old gentleman was at one time a | :08:12. | :08:24. | |
Home Office minister. -- honourable gentleman. It was under the last | :08:25. | :08:38. | |
Labour government that the border had no operating mandate. People | :08:39. | :08:42. | |
came through the primary checkpoints and were not getting the what -- | :08:43. | :08:49. | |
100% checks the need. We have enhanced security and will continue | :08:50. | :08:54. | |
to do so. My constituents in Kettering are very concerned about | :08:55. | :09:04. | |
our borders. Whilst it is true that many illegal immigrants are stopped | :09:05. | :09:10. | |
in lorries in France and on arrival in Britain, far too many illegal | :09:11. | :09:13. | |
immigrants are still on the backs of lorries when they pass Kettering. | :09:14. | :09:21. | |
What more can the Home Secretary do to reassure my constituents were | :09:22. | :09:27. | |
going to get even tougher to stop illegal immigration which also has a | :09:28. | :09:33. | |
security implication? He is right. It is important we continually | :09:34. | :09:37. | |
review the processes we have in place to screen people as they come | :09:38. | :09:42. | |
across-the-board and to ensure we are stopping the people who want to | :09:43. | :09:45. | |
come here as illegal immigrants. That is why we have invested tens of | :09:46. | :09:54. | |
millions of pounds in security at Calais to ensure it is harder for | :09:55. | :09:59. | |
people to get into lorries and harder to access the Eurotunnel. It | :10:00. | :10:03. | |
is why we are continuing to look at improvements in technology that may | :10:04. | :10:06. | |
enable us to bring into place equipment which is better at | :10:07. | :10:11. | |
detecting for people are trying to store away in the sorts of vehicles. | :10:12. | :10:16. | |
This is not something you do as a one-off. You need to keep rowing | :10:17. | :10:23. | |
that. This has been a sorry saiga and it is still not quite clear why | :10:24. | :10:33. | |
the civil servant was so evasive before the committee. What was the | :10:34. | :10:39. | |
hold-up? This requires careful scrutiny and attracts public | :10:40. | :10:45. | |
interest. What will she do to ensure the process is more transparent? | :10:46. | :10:49. | |
Fantasy net migration target and cuts to the budget leave the Home | :10:50. | :10:55. | |
Office down the path of targeting exactly the wrong people, using the | :10:56. | :11:00. | |
wrong policy leaders. Unable to properly enforce existing rules, the | :11:01. | :11:04. | |
Office is introducing evermore Draconian rules to clamp down on | :11:05. | :11:10. | |
skilled workers, students and spices. My colleagues saw with my | :11:11. | :11:27. | |
own eyes how vulnerable children who have family in the UK are left in | :11:28. | :11:34. | |
terrible conditions in Dunkirk. When will she fixed her Budget not to | :11:35. | :11:39. | |
suit the ideological percent of budgets? She has mixed up | :11:40. | :12:02. | |
the issues of border checks and emigration which are different | :12:03. | :12:07. | |
issues. I would remind her she comments on the appearance of a | :12:08. | :12:12. | |
senior civil servant in front of the select committee. The individual | :12:13. | :12:27. | |
replied we know what force -- what the force needs for the year. She | :12:28. | :12:32. | |
referred to the question she has raised previously and other members | :12:33. | :12:36. | |
of the size of raised about the speed at which those people who are | :12:37. | :12:41. | |
in Calais, children have family members in the UK being processed. | :12:42. | :12:44. | |
We recognise it was an issue and that is why we have succumbed it | :12:45. | :12:48. | |
someone to the Ministry of the Interior in Paris to work on this. | :12:49. | :12:52. | |
It is why there are seen people being processed in weeks rather than | :12:53. | :12:58. | |
months, and in some cases in days. That there's nothing worse in the | :12:59. | :13:08. | |
bash this House than the manufacture of rate. | :13:09. | :13:14. | |
It is not through lack of thoroughness that any drugs or | :13:15. | :13:20. | |
people are getting through. Will she acknowledged the need to be more | :13:21. | :13:25. | |
flexible as increasing cases of independent vessels come across the | :13:26. | :13:30. | |
Channel to Sussex and Kent in particular? We must be mindful of | :13:31. | :13:37. | |
that. Thank him for his remarks. I echo the comments he has made. | :13:38. | :13:47. | |
Border force staff work day in and day out. As we make ports like | :13:48. | :13:56. | |
Calais more secure, the Immigration Minister has been talking to our | :13:57. | :14:00. | |
Belgian and Dutch counterpart about access from those ports into the UK. | :14:01. | :14:06. | |
The whole point of some of the changes we have made is to make it | :14:07. | :14:14. | |
more flexible so it can respond to the need as it arises. Can I thank | :14:15. | :14:20. | |
the Home Secretary for the detail she has provided today? Can I praise | :14:21. | :14:27. | |
the work of the border force, especially the leadership provided | :14:28. | :14:32. | |
by Sir Charles Montgomery. Last week, the honourable member for | :14:33. | :14:34. | |
Gainsborough and today the Member for Kettering made comments. Can she | :14:35. | :14:42. | |
confirmed there are 100% checks on every lorry entering this country? | :14:43. | :14:47. | |
In order to deal with security and immigration issues. Although we have | :14:48. | :14:51. | |
spent a huge amount of money in Calais, we have displaced this | :14:52. | :14:59. | |
problem into other European ports. Without partners doing their bit, we | :15:00. | :15:03. | |
will still get people coming into this country who should not be here. | :15:04. | :15:09. | |
The right honourable gentleman referred to questions from the | :15:10. | :15:15. | |
sustenance but also from the Member for Gainsborough. The point I have | :15:16. | :15:19. | |
made subsequently outside of this chamber is that we undertake checks | :15:20. | :15:25. | |
on lorries, but those checks vary. Front technology is used and | :15:26. | :15:34. | |
sometimes dogs. The right honourable gentleman is right. As I have | :15:35. | :15:44. | |
indicated in my response previously. It is necessary for us to be looking | :15:45. | :15:48. | |
at where there may be displacement of people trying to enter the UK | :15:49. | :15:52. | |
illegally. That is what we have been doing with the government in Belgium | :15:53. | :15:58. | |
and the Netherlands. Has my right honourable friend been able to | :15:59. | :16:04. | |
reinstate the cuts which were made in January this year by border force | :16:05. | :16:11. | |
to the maritime aerial surveillance capability? Which is crucial in | :16:12. | :16:15. | |
detecting people who are trying to smuggle into our country, and indeed | :16:16. | :16:19. | |
was instrumental in ensuring some of the successes to which she referred | :16:20. | :16:26. | |
earlier? I can reassure him that we are maintaining the capabilities he | :16:27. | :16:29. | |
talks about, but we happened to be delivering them in a different way. | :16:30. | :16:35. | |
He and I have discussed this previously. Was a particular | :16:36. | :16:39. | |
contract that is no longer in place. Border force has looked to see how | :16:40. | :16:47. | |
it can work in a variety of ways, including working with the Royal | :16:48. | :16:54. | |
navy. Last year an asylum seeker was located in my constituency. He | :16:55. | :17:07. | |
subsequently committed crimes and is imprisoned. My constituents have the | :17:08. | :17:16. | |
burden of taking 500 asylum seekers. What moves is she making to ensure | :17:17. | :17:23. | |
there is a fairer distribution across the UK? I believe there are | :17:24. | :17:31. | |
none in the Prime Minister's constituency and none in the | :17:32. | :17:39. | |
Chancellor's constituency. 509. My constituency is not somewhere that | :17:40. | :17:43. | |
normally takes asylum seekers. I am pleased to say they are taking some | :17:44. | :17:52. | |
of the Syrian refugees. We talk regularly with local authorities | :17:53. | :17:55. | |
about where it is appropriate for asylum seekers to be dispersed to. | :17:56. | :18:00. | |
Those commerce stations continue. A number of new local authorities have | :18:01. | :18:04. | |
come on board. We have not changed the system of a silent dispersal. It | :18:05. | :18:12. | |
is the same that is run by the last Labour government. Millions of | :18:13. | :18:19. | |
pounds could be saved for the border force budget by having a more | :18:20. | :18:23. | |
efficient removal system. What steps will my right honourable friend be | :18:24. | :18:27. | |
taking in light of the findings of the independent Chief inspector of | :18:28. | :18:32. | |
Borders in immigration contained in his report issued last month? We of | :18:33. | :18:37. | |
course continually look at how we can improve our ability to remove | :18:38. | :18:41. | |
people from this country. That is why we have brought forward changes | :18:42. | :18:46. | |
in a variety of Immigration Bill is to enhance our ability to remove | :18:47. | :18:51. | |
people and particularly to make it harder for people to live here | :18:52. | :18:55. | |
illegally in the United Kingdom. Decisions that were put through in | :18:56. | :19:01. | |
the last Immigration Bill put through to deal with people in terms | :19:02. | :19:06. | |
of their access to driver licensees, bank accounts and rented property | :19:07. | :19:15. | |
are all having an impact. How many more staff could be deployed to | :19:16. | :19:19. | |
police our borders of the government were to scrap the landlords helpline | :19:20. | :19:25. | |
and use that resource instead to more securely police our borders? I | :19:26. | :19:30. | |
have to say to the right to rumble gentleman that if what he wants us | :19:31. | :19:39. | |
to have the security of this country improved, the measures we have put | :19:40. | :19:44. | |
in place through the immigration act are having an impact. Would she | :19:45. | :19:50. | |
agree that the reality is the UK has the strongest borders in Europe | :19:51. | :19:56. | |
partly because of the government's investment in technology in our | :19:57. | :20:02. | |
borders, and partly because of this party's from position we should not | :20:03. | :20:07. | |
join the Schengen system? I think at is crucial. By not joining the | :20:08. | :20:17. | |
Schengen system, we maintain control at our borders. People working in my | :20:18. | :20:27. | |
constituency are concerned about security regarding large transporter | :20:28. | :20:32. | |
ships. There have been humanitarian concerns. Can she is sure my | :20:33. | :20:40. | |
constituents that the port in Grimsby is adequately protected? We | :20:41. | :20:46. | |
look at border security at ports on a regular basis. She refers to the | :20:47. | :20:55. | |
humanitarian issue in relation to people who may be being smuggled | :20:56. | :21:01. | |
across-the-board in transporters. The people responsible for that | :21:02. | :21:06. | |
shamanic healing issue are the traffickers who put illegal | :21:07. | :21:09. | |
immigrants into those containers. There was praise for my right | :21:10. | :21:17. | |
honourable friend. She was accused of both backpedalling and performing | :21:18. | :21:26. | |
a U-turn. Could I ask my right honourable friend what role she sees | :21:27. | :21:34. | |
the investigation powers bill currently before the house in | :21:35. | :21:43. | |
strengthening the work of border force? It is important that we are | :21:44. | :21:57. | |
able to access the various tools and power is needed. That is why the | :21:58. | :22:01. | |
investigatory Powers Bill is so important. I note that in the letter | :22:02. | :22:09. | |
to Peter Graff today, the Shadow Home Secretary mentioned the | :22:10. | :22:16. | |
importance of access to communications data. That is what we | :22:17. | :22:23. | |
are trying to protect in the Bill. It took almost 25 minutes to get | :22:24. | :22:28. | |
through the border at Gatwick Airport. There were 15 desks for | :22:29. | :22:35. | |
staff and all me eight people working. What kind of message does | :22:36. | :22:41. | |
it send about the welcome to the United Kingdom and how will this | :22:42. | :22:48. | |
budget help to remedy those kind of inefficiencies? | :22:49. | :22:55. | |
There are enforced standards and we meet those standards. I also say to | :22:56. | :23:03. | |
him, it is very interesting that the debate we are having today, people | :23:04. | :23:08. | |
are asking for more port security and then others are saying they want | :23:09. | :23:12. | |
to get through rather more quickly. The honourable gentleman always | :23:13. | :23:21. | |
looks to be a happy chappie. The Shadow Home Secretary is right to | :23:22. | :23:26. | |
draw attention to the port of Immingham, in my constituency. | :23:27. | :23:30. | |
Border staff there have concerns. The concerns of residents have been | :23:31. | :23:35. | |
heightened following reports that the National Crime Agency | :23:36. | :23:43. | |
acknowledged that ports are being targeted. Can we receive assurances | :23:44. | :23:49. | |
that there are moves to protect the Humber ports? The point of my | :23:50. | :23:58. | |
honourable friend makes is important. I have responded to this | :23:59. | :24:03. | |
in a number of questions, including to the right honourable gentleman, | :24:04. | :24:06. | |
the chairman of the Home Affairs Select Committee. We have made | :24:07. | :24:12. | |
changes to Border Force, and one of those changes was to introduce | :24:13. | :24:17. | |
greater flexibility, to be able to move resources around the country. | :24:18. | :24:22. | |
This is crucial, so you don't just have static forces at a number of | :24:23. | :24:27. | |
ports. But you are able to move when you see the need to do so. That is | :24:28. | :24:30. | |
exactly what we're doing in relation to the ports on the east coast, one | :24:31. | :24:36. | |
of which he cited. Northern Ireland is the only part of the UK with a | :24:37. | :24:41. | |
land border with another country. Both the UK and the republic lie | :24:42. | :24:45. | |
outside showing and, therefore corporation is key. Last week, a | :24:46. | :24:50. | |
representative said they felt they are hopelessly ill-equipped and will | :24:51. | :24:55. | |
resort to stand against the threat of terrorists entering the UK | :24:56. | :24:59. | |
through Irish borders. Can the Home Secretary give any comfort, as to | :25:00. | :25:05. | |
whether this budget will help make that vulnerable access point to the | :25:06. | :25:12. | |
UK less so? I can reassure the honourable gentleman that we are in | :25:13. | :25:14. | |
regular discussion with the Irish Government about how to improve the | :25:15. | :25:20. | |
security of their external border, because, obviously, as he refers to, | :25:21. | :25:23. | |
there is a common travel area between Ireland and the UK. We have | :25:24. | :25:27. | |
done a lot of work with the Irish Government in terms of data sharing | :25:28. | :25:31. | |
and the sort of systems that might be available for support. We | :25:32. | :25:35. | |
continue to do so. In contrast to earlier comments, I would like to | :25:36. | :25:42. | |
pay tribute to the hard work and dedication of Border Force officers | :25:43. | :25:48. | |
at Gatwick. Particularly in terms of apprehending some recent terror | :25:49. | :25:52. | |
suspects. Can I get assurances that they will continue to get the | :25:53. | :25:55. | |
support they need from the Home Office? I can give that assurance. | :25:56. | :26:04. | |
We now have a Border Force that is more flexible and able to use its | :26:05. | :26:07. | |
resources appropriately and we continue to do so. We are looking to | :26:08. | :26:13. | |
make sure resources are appropriate at the various ports, commensurate | :26:14. | :26:19. | |
with the traffic those ports received. He rightly praises the | :26:20. | :26:25. | |
Border Force officers at Gatwick, who do a great job, as do officers | :26:26. | :26:31. | |
elsewhere. When will she make a statement on allegations that under | :26:32. | :26:38. | |
her watch, terrorists where allowed to preach this country's border | :26:39. | :26:46. | |
security? I would say that of course, in terms of border security | :26:47. | :26:49. | |
and stopping people crossing the border, what is important is not | :26:50. | :26:53. | |
just that you have a border control, as we do, by not being a member of | :26:54. | :27:00. | |
the Schengen border free zone, but also that the information is | :27:01. | :27:04. | |
exchanged between parties when that information is available. That is | :27:05. | :27:09. | |
exactly what we are working on, to ensure information is available at | :27:10. | :27:12. | |
our borders when we want to be able to stop people. I don't think she | :27:13. | :27:18. | |
has yet fully answered the question put to her by the chair of the Home | :27:19. | :27:24. | |
Affairs Select Committee, regarding checks on trucks. I accept the issue | :27:25. | :27:31. | |
of flexibility, different things in different places. But there is | :27:32. | :27:37. | |
genuine concern in up and down the country about levels of security. | :27:38. | :27:41. | |
How does the cumulative cuts in the revenue budget of the Border Force, | :27:42. | :27:47. | |
how a compatible with providing the level of security necessary? On the | :27:48. | :27:52. | |
last point, I have to say to the Labour Party, it is not about how | :27:53. | :27:59. | |
much money you have, but about how you spend it and that you use it | :28:00. | :28:05. | |
effectively and efficiently. The introduction of an operating | :28:06. | :28:09. | |
mandate, so that at primary checkpoints, that are 100% checks | :28:10. | :28:14. | |
being undertaken of individuals, that is something the Government | :28:15. | :28:17. | |
introduced that the last Labour Government did not introduce. All | :28:18. | :28:23. | |
the trucks going through juxtaposed controls are indeed screamed. Over | :28:24. | :28:30. | |
Easter, a number of my constituents were frustrated at Manchester | :28:31. | :28:33. | |
Airport, where they were queueing to go through passport control because | :28:34. | :28:40. | |
that passport control was significantly under resourced. What | :28:41. | :28:42. | |
reassuring scanned the Home Secretary give that Manchester | :28:43. | :28:49. | |
Airport, which is, after all, the largest International Airport | :28:50. | :28:52. | |
outside of London, we have adequate resource at passport control. Can | :28:53. | :28:58. | |
she also looked at the loophole at terminal three, whereby passengers | :28:59. | :29:01. | |
who transit from Heathrow and have their baggage sent directly through | :29:02. | :29:07. | |
to Manchester don't actually have to go through a customs check? The | :29:08. | :29:15. | |
honourable gentleman has asked me about resources for Manchester | :29:16. | :29:19. | |
Airport. I can assure him that we regularly have discussions with | :29:20. | :29:21. | |
Manchester Airport about the traffic going through, about the | :29:22. | :29:27. | |
requirements they have, and judge the resources that are put for | :29:28. | :29:31. | |
Border Force appropriately. We fully recognise the significance of | :29:32. | :29:42. | |
Manchester Airport. A recent watchdog study into Border Force at | :29:43. | :29:46. | |
Manchester Airport showed that one in four passengers got through the | :29:47. | :29:51. | |
border inappropriately. A whole Ryanair flight was recently missed, | :29:52. | :29:56. | |
with a passengers, who suffered no checks whatsoever. ?1.5 million was | :29:57. | :30:03. | |
spent on sniffer dogs. Now terrorists or Class A drugs have | :30:04. | :30:06. | |
been discovered. And we suffer in terminable delays for business | :30:07. | :30:11. | |
passengers and terrorists. The airport is suffering because of a | :30:12. | :30:14. | |
lack of investment in Border Force. You may have protected the budget | :30:15. | :30:17. | |
but it is not making any improvement whatsoever in a very poor existing | :30:18. | :30:21. | |
service. What does the Home Secretary said? As Manchester | :30:22. | :30:30. | |
Airport expands, we discuss with them what resources are necessary. | :30:31. | :30:36. | |
He referred to a misdirected flight, that is an issue we had taken up | :30:37. | :30:41. | |
with Manchester Airport, in terms of the staff they have on the ground, | :30:42. | :30:45. | |
in relation to the way they deal with flights. We take that | :30:46. | :30:56. | |
seriously. I echo commendations made by others towards the excellent work | :30:57. | :30:59. | |
done by border staff but numbers are also important. Order. A rather | :31:00. | :31:08. | |
unseemly exchange going on between the honourable gentleman who put | :31:09. | :31:10. | |
forward a question and was dissatisfied with the answer and the | :31:11. | :31:16. | |
honourable member for Northampton North, who always feels compelled to | :31:17. | :31:19. | |
display a level of fealty unsurpassed by any other member of | :31:20. | :31:26. | |
the House of Commons. That is not necessary. We all know the fealty, | :31:27. | :31:32. | |
bordering upon the obsequious edges on display from the honourable | :31:33. | :31:39. | |
gentleman. But this must not be allowed to interrupt the flow of | :31:40. | :31:50. | |
other members. The opposition, the right honourable member opposite, | :31:51. | :31:57. | |
received a report saying that 30,000 Border Force was the right number in | :31:58. | :32:02. | |
order to protect our borders. Is that still the policy of the | :32:03. | :32:07. | |
Government? Can the Home Secretary tell us how many border staff there | :32:08. | :32:13. | |
are currently? The report he refers to proposed the creation of an | :32:14. | :32:16. | |
entirely new police force at the borders. When we look to what was | :32:17. | :32:21. | |
necessary, we decided to approach the issue in a different way, and we | :32:22. | :32:25. | |
created the National Crime Agency and a specific border command within | :32:26. | :32:29. | |
the National Crime Agency. Staff operating at borders are not just | :32:30. | :32:33. | |
Border Force, but border command from National Crime Agency, special | :32:34. | :32:38. | |
Branch at ports and of course, they work with immigration enforcement. | :32:39. | :32:42. | |
So, we have for the first time in this country, a specific border | :32:43. | :32:46. | |
command within the National Crime Agency. Order. Presentation of Bill, | :32:47. | :32:56. | |
Mr Frank Field. I2-mac property ownership in London, registration. | :32:57. | :33:06. | |
We now come to the ten minute rule motion. I beg to move the leave to | :33:07. | :33:16. | |
be given the right to bring in the bill regarding forensic linguistics | :33:17. | :33:22. | |
analysis and accepted techniques and for connected purposes. Our children | :33:23. | :33:26. | |
and young people face an enormous threat from being groomed by radical | :33:27. | :33:31. | |
extremists and paedophiles. It is facilitated by the internet, social | :33:32. | :33:37. | |
media and mobile technology. This bill is about the protection of | :33:38. | :33:42. | |
vulnerable people. It is about the monitoring and analysing of | :33:43. | :33:46. | |
communications between people we need to be concerned about. People | :33:47. | :33:51. | |
who plot and scheme to do harm to others. People such as paedophiles | :33:52. | :33:55. | |
and extremists. People who use modern technology as a tool in their | :33:56. | :34:01. | |
evil business. Mr Speaker, last October, I led a Westminster debate | :34:02. | :34:06. | |
on the use of children as suicide bombers. We know that many of the | :34:07. | :34:10. | |
techniques used in recruiting children are the same as those used | :34:11. | :34:16. | |
by paedophiles. We also know that there is software available that | :34:17. | :34:20. | |
will identify the messages and language of groomers and using a | :34:21. | :34:26. | |
variety of tools, we can match these to voice language patterns of known | :34:27. | :34:31. | |
individuals. Forensic linguistics is a complicated field. It is | :34:32. | :34:34. | |
relatively new and linguistic evidence can include signs, social | :34:35. | :34:43. | |
science and interpretation. Forensic linguistic analysis requires a | :34:44. | :34:47. | |
complex set of knowledge and skills. Presently, however, anyone, | :34:48. | :34:53. | |
including you or I, Mr Speaker, can proclaim themselves to be an expert | :34:54. | :34:59. | |
in forensic linguistics. Subsequently, there is a | :35:00. | :35:02. | |
considerable danger that in a court of law, substandard analysis can be | :35:03. | :35:08. | |
offered. What we need is a standardised qualification for the | :35:09. | :35:12. | |
analysts and a standardised set of techniques that will give the courts | :35:13. | :35:16. | |
me confidence to accept evidence as more than just interesting | :35:17. | :35:23. | |
background. This bill does not call for sophisticated legislation. It | :35:24. | :35:29. | |
would be relatively straightforward for a statutory register to be | :35:30. | :35:34. | |
compiled. The register this bill calls for would not need it own | :35:35. | :35:39. | |
regulator. One already exists. The forensic science regulator. This is | :35:40. | :35:46. | |
already working to include speech and audio analysis as a recognised | :35:47. | :35:53. | |
speciality area. But as textual linguistic analysis draws an | :35:54. | :35:59. | |
interpretive as well as scientific methods, this falls outside the | :36:00. | :36:03. | |
current agreement. I also draw attention to current codes of | :36:04. | :36:07. | |
practice and conduct for forensic science providers and practitioners, | :36:08. | :36:11. | |
and more generally for expert witnesses in the criminal justice | :36:12. | :36:16. | |
system, which could be adapted to include the practice of forensic | :36:17. | :36:23. | |
linguistics. There are academic institutions with authority in this | :36:24. | :36:30. | |
area, such as the Centre for forensic linguistics at Aston | :36:31. | :36:34. | |
University. At this point, I would like to personally thank the | :36:35. | :36:39. | |
director of this centre, Professor Tim Wright, for his help in | :36:40. | :36:43. | |
developing this bill. I am also grateful for encouragement from the | :36:44. | :36:47. | |
president of the chartered Society of Forensic Science Service and the | :36:48. | :36:52. | |
director of forensic services in Scotland, Mr Tom Nelson. The | :36:53. | :36:57. | |
standard of specialist witnesses and indeed forensic scientists | :36:58. | :37:07. | |
themselves is inherently... I know of people who: sells forensic side | :37:08. | :37:11. | |
but who cannot tell them difference between the interpreting Aust | :37:12. | :37:15. | |
Pacific a thickness of a test, let alone can't delete a value. I have | :37:16. | :37:20. | |
or dimension and that speech and audio analysis and textual analysis | :37:21. | :37:26. | |
are two different things. The problem for textual forensic | :37:27. | :37:30. | |
linguistics is that many aspects of the work, determination of meanings | :37:31. | :37:35. | |
and messages, profiling the background of a writer, etc, are a | :37:36. | :37:38. | |
long way from the laboratory waste paradigms. The closest we get to | :37:39. | :37:44. | |
laboratory based science is in comparative authorship analysis | :37:45. | :37:47. | |
work. Cover this work. There is no way for | :37:48. | :38:11. | |
high-quality petitioners to be avoided. | :38:12. | :38:23. | |
This could look like a register for individuals, methods or both. The | :38:24. | :38:36. | |
obvious person to hold it would be the regulator for Forensic Science | :38:37. | :38:43. | |
Service to where is the proof that forensic linguistic analysis can | :38:44. | :38:48. | |
work? In those cases, where forensics linguistic evidence has | :38:49. | :38:56. | |
been allowed in court, it has proved particularly valuable. For example, | :38:57. | :39:00. | |
it was used in the appeals of Derek Bentley and the Birmingham six. In | :39:01. | :39:05. | |
many cases across the UK, it has been used to determine authorship of | :39:06. | :39:11. | |
SMS text messages in murder cases. It has been used to extract the | :39:12. | :39:16. | |
meaning of coded texts and slang terms used in internet cat rooms, | :39:17. | :39:20. | |
often involving conspiracies to murder and child sex abuse | :39:21. | :39:26. | |
conversations. Good forensic linguistic evidence has withstood | :39:27. | :39:31. | |
appeal. Yet there is the potential to undermine this excellent work | :39:32. | :39:36. | |
through substandard analysis by Purley and unqualified | :39:37. | :39:43. | |
practitioners. Of all it has strong roots in the UK, there is evidence | :39:44. | :39:50. | |
of textual evidence growing internationally. Examples include | :39:51. | :39:55. | |
Australia in successful appeals against murder convictions and in | :39:56. | :39:59. | |
South Africa in cases of disputed wills. In 1996 in the United States, | :40:00. | :40:06. | |
textual forensic linguistic analysis was used to identify the writer of a | :40:07. | :40:15. | |
manifesto as Ted kitchen ski who was convicted of running a bombing | :40:16. | :40:23. | |
campaign across the country. In the UK, it has been used regarding | :40:24. | :40:31. | |
serious counter-terrorism charges. In 2004, an individual was arrested | :40:32. | :40:39. | |
and charged on the basis of linguistic evidence linking him to a | :40:40. | :40:46. | |
conspiracy document. He later admitted to potting to bomb the New | :40:47. | :40:53. | |
York Stock Exchange, the IMF headquarters and the World Bank | :40:54. | :40:59. | |
amongst other targets. The UK Forensic Science Service role was | :41:00. | :41:06. | |
created in 2007 by the honourable member for Hackney South and | :41:07. | :41:09. | |
Shoreditch. It is good to see some progress has been made. But on this | :41:10. | :41:17. | |
issue it is time to put the regulator to work. Mr Speaker, this | :41:18. | :41:20. | |
bill will enable the statutory agencies to use information and | :41:21. | :41:28. | |
evidence as they gather through the medium of forensic evidence to | :41:29. | :41:34. | |
protect more children from predatory adults and protect the British | :41:35. | :41:39. | |
public from the likelihood of events like those seen recently in | :41:40. | :41:45. | |
Brussels, Paris, Kabul and Pakistan. I commend it to the House. The | :41:46. | :41:51. | |
question is that the honourable member have leave to bring in the | :41:52. | :41:59. | |
Bill? As many who are of that opinion say I? The contrary now? The | :42:00. | :42:05. | |
ayes have it. Who will prepare and bring in the Bill? Michelle Thomson, | :42:06. | :42:10. | |
Mr Jacob Rees-Mogg and myself. Very smart. Stylish. Forensic | :42:11. | :42:44. | |
linguistics standards Bill. White May six may. We come to the main | :42:45. | :43:03. | |
business. The question is as on the order paper. The ayes have it. The | :43:04. | :43:20. | |
clerk will now read the order of business for the day. I must draw | :43:21. | :43:31. | |
the attention of the House that financial privilege is engaged by | :43:32. | :43:35. | |
Lords amendment to a. If the House agrees it, I will cause an | :43:36. | :43:40. | |
appropriate entry to be made in the journal. The first Amendment to be | :43:41. | :43:47. | |
taken as Lords amendment seven A with which we will consider seven B | :43:48. | :44:09. | |
on words. Lords amendment six and eight, as well as to. To move to | :44:10. | :44:15. | |
agree with Lords amendment seven, I call the Minister, the Minister | :44:16. | :44:26. | |
being Andrea led seven. Thank you. To deliver on its manifesto | :44:27. | :44:30. | |
commitment, the government remains determined to bring forward the | :44:31. | :44:33. | |
closure of the renewables obligation to new onshore wind in Great | :44:34. | :44:38. | |
Britain. This is a commitment based on plans which were signalled well | :44:39. | :44:42. | |
before the general election last year and which should not have come | :44:43. | :44:45. | |
as a surprise to honourable members ought to industry. Back in March | :44:46. | :44:54. | |
2015, the honourable member for Suffolk stated in this House that we | :44:55. | :44:58. | |
have made it absolutely clear that we will remove onshore wind | :44:59. | :45:06. | |
subsidies in the future. Prior to that comment 2014, the Prime | :45:07. | :45:10. | |
Minister stated in a House of Commons Liaison Committee that we | :45:11. | :45:13. | |
don't need more of these subsidised onshore wind farms so let's get rid | :45:14. | :45:17. | |
of the subsidy. We're been absolutely clear long the | :45:18. | :45:22. | |
government's policies to bring forward the closure of the | :45:23. | :45:24. | |
renewables obligation to new onshore wind. To protect investor | :45:25. | :45:30. | |
confidence, the government has proposed a grace period for those | :45:31. | :45:34. | |
projects meeting certain conditions, as at 18 June last year. The grace | :45:35. | :45:46. | |
period provisions intended to detect projects which already had relevant | :45:47. | :45:53. | |
planning consents, a grid connection offer an acceptance of that offer or | :45:54. | :45:59. | |
confirmation that no grid connection is required, and also access to land | :46:00. | :46:08. | |
rights. I will give way. In the list of pre-warnings she set out, my | :46:09. | :46:17. | |
recollection tells me that the proposals were contained within our | :46:18. | :46:22. | |
manifesto and that commanded the support of the British people. Does | :46:23. | :46:31. | |
she agree with me that this is the other place being on thin ice again? | :46:32. | :46:40. | |
He is exactly right. This is a manifesto commitment and in the | :46:41. | :46:47. | |
other house peers should listen to the manifesto commitment of this | :46:48. | :46:51. | |
government and should respect it, as is normally the practice as I | :46:52. | :46:54. | |
understand it. The government has also taken action regarding a key | :46:55. | :47:02. | |
concern raised by industry about an investment freeze. The clauses are | :47:03. | :47:06. | |
there to ensure projects that meet the court grace period and were | :47:07. | :47:13. | |
intended to access the period as proposed are not frozen out of the | :47:14. | :47:18. | |
process. Government continues to receive representations from | :47:19. | :47:24. | |
industry suggesting they welcome the proposals to address the investment | :47:25. | :47:27. | |
freeze. The government has put in place a provision to insure an | :47:28. | :47:33. | |
existing grace period caused by delays to grade or radar works will | :47:34. | :47:38. | |
continue to apply. We need to get on and complete this Bill. As the | :47:39. | :47:44. | |
honourable member for Coatbridge said committee stage, we agree | :47:45. | :47:48. | |
speaking for the that Swift passage of the bill with these provisions is | :47:49. | :47:56. | |
needed, in order to provide certainty to investors in this | :47:57. | :48:01. | |
industry as quickly as possible. The renewables industry fears that the | :48:02. | :48:10. | |
longer the period of in certainty continues, the greater there is | :48:11. | :48:12. | |
further to be running out of time. And any additional capacity added to | :48:13. | :48:37. | |
existing wind stations after the onshore wind closure date. This is a | :48:38. | :48:42. | |
backstop however and would only be used if Northern Ireland does not | :48:43. | :48:49. | |
close their are all to new onshore wind. Since our last debate, I am | :48:50. | :48:57. | |
pleased that the RO in Northern Ireland has now closed. The Northern | :48:58. | :49:05. | |
Ireland Executive are currently consulting on closing two stations | :49:06. | :49:12. | |
of five megawatts and below. I am grateful to the Minister. I was | :49:13. | :49:21. | |
about to ask about the response from the Northern Ireland Executive. | :49:22. | :49:24. | |
There are of course elections coming up. With the Minister confirm that | :49:25. | :49:32. | |
is almost too late for the Northern Ireland Executive at the present | :49:33. | :49:39. | |
time? The Minister wants it to be completed, but we will not have a | :49:40. | :49:43. | |
running the executive in Northern Ireland until at least a fortnight | :49:44. | :49:48. | |
after the elections. I cannot agree that we are rushing this bill | :49:49. | :49:52. | |
through in any way. Has been an enormous amount of time for | :49:53. | :49:58. | |
consultation and discussion. The executive are consulting closing two | :49:59. | :50:04. | |
stations of five megawatts and below. Since our last debate on this | :50:05. | :50:16. | |
policy in this House, government has introduced two further small changes | :50:17. | :50:21. | |
to the Bill. These will provide for the early closure of the RO to new | :50:22. | :50:26. | |
onshore wind in Great Britain and the backstop power relating to | :50:27. | :50:34. | |
Northern Ireland to come into force on the date of Royal assent of this | :50:35. | :50:42. | |
Bill. The amendments listed are those which are just the early | :50:43. | :50:50. | |
closure date. These changes are made in VS places throughout clauses of | :50:51. | :50:58. | |
the Bill and to the grid and radar condition and the investment freeze | :50:59. | :51:01. | |
condition. I was very clear in our last debate on this issue, as was | :51:02. | :51:07. | |
the Parliamentary undersecretary of state in the other place, the | :51:08. | :51:11. | |
government does not intend to backdate these provisions. Before I | :51:12. | :51:19. | |
speak to other amendments and the government's intention to disagree, | :51:20. | :51:23. | |
let me again see the government remains committed to our manifesto | :51:24. | :51:35. | |
pledge for ending these subsidies for new onshore wind. The government | :51:36. | :51:42. | |
does not agree that it is appropriate to include the provision | :51:43. | :51:49. | |
in the Lord's provision. The government wants this part of the | :51:50. | :51:59. | |
bill retirement to the House as it was before it left for the other | :52:00. | :52:08. | |
place. This would include projects which would have had an indication | :52:09. | :52:13. | |
from a local planning authority that they would receive planning consent, | :52:14. | :52:20. | |
subject to section 106 being entered into. It would include projects | :52:21. | :52:24. | |
where the local planning committee was minded to approve a planning | :52:25. | :52:31. | |
application before 18 June 2015, but where planning permission was not | :52:32. | :52:35. | |
actually issued until after this date. To be clear, these projects | :52:36. | :52:41. | |
did not have planning permission as at 18 June last year, and therefore | :52:42. | :52:46. | |
they do not meet the grace period criteria as proposed by the | :52:47. | :52:46. | |
government. The 18th of June was set out as a | :52:47. | :52:55. | |
clear line and we have continued to maintain the importance of this as a | :52:56. | :52:58. | |
clear cut off and statement of intent to industry. To tamper with | :52:59. | :53:04. | |
such an integral part of the early closure policy at such a late stage | :53:05. | :53:07. | |
in its development simply will not do. Such a change would lead to an | :53:08. | :53:13. | |
increase in deployment and an increase which runs counter to the | :53:14. | :53:19. | |
intent of the early closure policy. This Government has a mandate to | :53:20. | :53:24. | |
act, to protect consumer bills from rising costs. And we must continue | :53:25. | :53:29. | |
to maintain the clear bright line, so carefully set out in the bill | :53:30. | :53:36. | |
provisions. I will give way. In terms of the cost of this amendment | :53:37. | :53:41. | |
from the Lords, what would she envisage the cost being if they | :53:42. | :53:45. | |
fooled 90 megawatts we're talking about were deployed, the average | :53:46. | :53:51. | |
bill, for consumers? So, the honourable gentleman will be aware | :53:52. | :53:57. | |
that that is likely to reduce the predicted savings from our early | :53:58. | :54:01. | |
closure, buy something in the region of ?10 million per annum. This is a | :54:02. | :54:06. | |
significant figure, we're the early closure of the R O is expected to | :54:07. | :54:13. | |
save, any central scenario, around ?29 a year and in the high scenario, | :54:14. | :54:19. | |
as much as ?270 million per year. Delighted to give away. Does she | :54:20. | :54:23. | |
agree that this is one of the most popular policies that we have put | :54:24. | :54:27. | |
the electorate and therefore we need to get on with it and the other | :54:28. | :54:31. | |
place should recognise this was an issue arising from the election? | :54:32. | :54:36. | |
Might write honourable friend is exactly right. This is a key, | :54:37. | :54:41. | |
popular manifesto commitment. And we're determined to implement it, as | :54:42. | :54:44. | |
we promised the voters of this country that we would do, last May. | :54:45. | :54:49. | |
He is exactly right. Madame Deputy Speaker, I will turn briefly to | :54:50. | :54:56. | |
amendment 2a, which was agreed on the other place. This seeks to | :54:57. | :55:02. | |
determine whether an oilfield project is complete, can be | :55:03. | :55:05. | |
transferred to the Oil and Gas Authority. This function is it | :55:06. | :55:10. | |
outside of chapter nine of the corporation tax and elsewhere within | :55:11. | :55:13. | |
that act. Therefore, it does not fall within the definition of | :55:14. | :55:18. | |
relevant function, under clause 26 of this bill. It is incapable of | :55:19. | :55:23. | |
being transfer from the Secretary of State to the LGA by regulations made | :55:24. | :55:28. | |
under clause 2-2. This removes the reference to part nine, from the | :55:29. | :55:33. | |
reference to part eight of the corporation tax act of 2010, within | :55:34. | :55:38. | |
clause 2-6, ensuring this important function is capable of being | :55:39. | :55:45. | |
transferred to the LGA. So, this is purely technical in nature and seeks | :55:46. | :55:49. | |
to put beyond doubt that all key oil and gas taxation functions can be | :55:50. | :55:56. | |
transferred to the OGA, one becomes a Government company, as we have | :55:57. | :56:03. | |
always intended. I beg to move. The question is that this has agrees | :56:04. | :56:12. | |
with the Lords and their amendments. The messages we receive from the | :56:13. | :56:15. | |
other place to make a number of changes to the bill. In most | :56:16. | :56:24. | |
instances, the changes that relate to the areas mentioned, of the | :56:25. | :56:29. | |
closure of the Aru itself, essentially because of the progress | :56:30. | :56:32. | |
of the Bill through Parliament, leading to the potential charge of | :56:33. | :56:38. | |
retrograde specificity. It is good that has been rectified. And that | :56:39. | :56:43. | |
the Government is not backdating the closure of the RO. This changes to | :56:44. | :56:54. | |
point to the issue that is raised in one of the other messages, which the | :56:55. | :56:59. | |
Government is to be moving to disagree with. We need to be clear | :57:00. | :57:05. | |
that the message itself is not saying that the notion of changing | :57:06. | :57:13. | |
the closure date for the renewed obligation, as far as onshore wind | :57:14. | :57:17. | |
farms concerned, is wrong. Although, myself, I continue to contain that | :57:18. | :57:22. | |
it was and is. And particularly so, because contrary to the impression | :57:23. | :57:26. | |
that the Minister gives us this afternoon, it is not the case that | :57:27. | :57:31. | |
developers of project suddenly realised the closure date was going | :57:32. | :57:35. | |
to the earlier than previously thought. Indeed, the so-called | :57:36. | :57:40. | |
warnings that the minister mentioned, prior to the General | :57:41. | :57:44. | |
Election, were not warnings about the early closure dates of the RO | :57:45. | :57:50. | |
but warnings about future funding of onshore wind farm general. Since | :57:51. | :57:59. | |
developers of projects always knew that they are would come to an end | :58:00. | :58:04. | |
in March 20 17th anyway, and had many instances spent many years in | :58:05. | :58:11. | |
the development process, a long period the former either the | :58:12. | :58:15. | |
warnings of the policy was put forward in the manifesto and | :58:16. | :58:18. | |
subsequently before a bill in this House... They found that after that | :58:19. | :58:25. | |
long periods, having planned with the notion that the RO would come to | :58:26. | :58:31. | |
an end, as they previously understood, they found late in the | :58:32. | :58:36. | |
day that the goalposts had been arbitrarily moved and that | :58:37. | :58:39. | |
investment costs were lost overnight as a result of that movement of the | :58:40. | :58:47. | |
goalposts. And neither is it the case that this particular message, | :58:48. | :58:50. | |
that the Government is moving to disagree with, is in any way | :58:51. | :58:56. | |
contrary to manifesto commitments. It is not about the principle of the | :58:57. | :59:04. | |
early closure of the RO. It is about grace periods, following that | :59:05. | :59:10. | |
closure process. It is not saying there should not be grace periods, | :59:11. | :59:15. | |
as far as exceptions for schemes that for various reasons might fall | :59:16. | :59:18. | |
foul of this new and arbitrary cut-off date, what it is saying, and | :59:19. | :59:21. | |
doing so by highlighting a small number of projects that have fallen | :59:22. | :59:25. | |
foul of the cut-off date for some very specific reasons, his a grace | :59:26. | :59:28. | |
period scheme should be built on a reasonable level of equity and | :59:29. | :59:32. | |
fairness and should work within an understanding of proper reasons for | :59:33. | :59:36. | |
exemption, rather than the imposing a few extended but nevertheless | :59:37. | :59:39. | |
still arbitrary cut-off dates for projects. The message highlighted is | :59:40. | :59:49. | |
a particularly egregious one, in the grace period scheme. It involves | :59:50. | :59:53. | |
schemes that have, according to new guidelines laid down in the build | :59:54. | :59:55. | |
process itself, done the right thing throughout. They have sought | :59:56. | :59:58. | |
unsecured local support for proposals, which the Government said | :59:59. | :00:05. | |
was to acquire development permission for any onshore wind farm | :00:06. | :00:10. | |
in the future. Local committee should have a say in decisions. It | :00:11. | :00:17. | |
should not seek to win an appeal on the basis of national determination | :00:18. | :00:20. | |
after having been turned down at local level. Schemes in this | :00:21. | :00:25. | |
amendment is it exactly that description. They have determinedly | :00:26. | :00:31. | |
gone through the local process. They haven't aged weather, balance and | :00:32. | :00:36. | |
back and waiting to progress through an appeal. They have one local | :00:37. | :00:38. | |
community support to the granting of a planning decision. The only issue | :00:39. | :00:46. | |
is that having done all this lengthy process of local concentration, they | :00:47. | :00:53. | |
find their locally supported outcome has, by the stroke of a pen, been | :00:54. | :00:57. | |
turned effectively into a refusal because the actual final planning | :00:58. | :01:00. | |
certificate has not arrived by the cut-off date because of issues | :01:01. | :01:03. | |
unrelated to the actual permission itself but concerned with details of | :01:04. | :01:11. | |
Section 106 agreements or Section 75 agreement in Scotland. And not as a | :01:12. | :01:15. | |
part of a process of the agreement, but arising because the agreement | :01:16. | :01:19. | |
schemes could not produce a final schemes could not produce a final | :01:20. | :01:23. | |
formal planning certificate by the arbitrary date of June 18, the | :01:24. | :01:27. | |
scheme then as a whole, was lost. Here, for example, is one suchscheme | :01:28. | :01:33. | |
's timetable. It relates to the Shelling Hill Beach wind farm in | :01:34. | :01:40. | |
Dumfriesshire. Planning was originally applied for in 2013. It | :01:41. | :01:46. | |
was approved subject to a Section 75 agreement by a planning committee on | :01:47. | :01:51. | |
the 16th of December, 2014. It was not the fault at all of the wind | :01:52. | :01:56. | |
farm applicant that the council took a few months to settle the | :01:57. | :02:01. | |
application. Even so, it was agreed on the 17th of June, 2015, again | :02:02. | :02:06. | |
before the cut-off date. Despite the agreement being public and on the | :02:07. | :02:10. | |
council website, the actual final certificate did not arrive until the | :02:11. | :02:16. | |
1st of July, making it null and void. Quite possibly, it would have | :02:17. | :02:24. | |
been wiser, in retrospect, for developers not to take too much time | :02:25. | :02:29. | |
and attention on local agreement but instead to facilitate an appeal that | :02:30. | :02:32. | |
they might hope to win. Some developers have done just this. And | :02:33. | :02:35. | |
they appeal to decision arrives after the cut-off date, as we heard, | :02:36. | :02:43. | |
that's fine, they are accepted, as far as grace periods are concerned, | :02:44. | :02:47. | |
through a provision in this grace periods as being OK all along and | :02:48. | :02:54. | |
their projects can proceed. This is frankly just perverse. It falls | :02:55. | :03:01. | |
seriously short of the equity that ought to inform any grace period | :03:02. | :03:07. | |
arrangement. The amendment seeks to attempt to restore some semblance of | :03:08. | :03:11. | |
equity into the process. It does so on the grounds of the principles | :03:12. | :03:14. | |
themselves that the Government put forward as the basis of decision on | :03:15. | :03:19. | |
onshore wind farm applications. The principle of the future that we | :03:20. | :03:23. | |
support on this site. The equity is simply this, they are for. If you | :03:24. | :03:27. | |
had a planning decision from a local planning commission in your favour, | :03:28. | :03:32. | |
before June 18, and you had arrived at that decision by a process of | :03:33. | :03:35. | |
consultation and community acceptance to the application, then | :03:36. | :03:37. | |
you should stand within the grace period. This is in itself a small | :03:38. | :03:43. | |
amendment, that will affect only about half a dozen schemes and will | :03:44. | :03:51. | |
make an insignificant inroad into the framework, as far as the RO is | :03:52. | :03:56. | |
concerned. But it places a much-needed patch of equity onto the | :03:57. | :03:59. | |
grace period structure and could perhaps point the way to a serious | :04:00. | :04:02. | |
address of an issue of the future. And that issue is this, is the | :04:03. | :04:08. | |
Government intent on ensuring offshore wind farms will be the | :04:09. | :04:13. | |
future? After all, the cheapest and most effective renewable available | :04:14. | :04:21. | |
today, if local support exists? Or will the Government use national | :04:22. | :04:25. | |
clout to override local issues to ensure the closure of onshore wind | :04:26. | :04:32. | |
farms overall, at least aspires England goes? Accepting this message | :04:33. | :04:36. | |
and allowing the bill to be finalised will go a long way to | :04:37. | :04:39. | |
restore a principle supposedly central to the process of the future | :04:40. | :04:43. | |
and demonstrate to local communities that they really will be able to | :04:44. | :04:46. | |
decide and will not find their local wishes snuffed out from the centre. | :04:47. | :04:57. | |
I do hope the other place will not delay this still further. There are | :04:58. | :05:01. | |
many people and parties in this House and in the other place, who | :05:02. | :05:05. | |
wished to see the bill going through to provide measures to help our oil | :05:06. | :05:09. | |
and gas industry, who are struggling at the moment, with a collapse in | :05:10. | :05:14. | |
the world oil price. And the consequent threat to jobs and | :05:15. | :05:19. | |
prosperity, which we would like to help the V8. I have two main reasons | :05:20. | :05:22. | |
for supporting the Government in what they're trying to do here. I | :05:23. | :05:25. | |
think they are right that energy is too dear and that this is a | :05:26. | :05:33. | |
contribution to try to tackle the problem of expensive energy. We see | :05:34. | :05:38. | |
the tragedy unfolding in several of our industries, most recently and | :05:39. | :05:40. | |
notably in the steel industry, where the consequence is very high cost | :05:41. | :05:45. | |
energy, compared to competitors around the world, and this impact on | :05:46. | :05:54. | |
output profit, loss and loss of jobs. We need to do more to try to | :05:55. | :06:01. | |
tackle the problem of energy and I admire the Government's urgency in | :06:02. | :06:03. | |
tackling one of the sources of height cost energy and the | :06:04. | :06:07. | |
subsequent withdrawal which I think is entirely appropriate. One of the | :06:08. | :06:12. | |
problems with wind energy, making it a very high cost way of offering | :06:13. | :06:17. | |
generating capacity, is that you need to build back-up capacity to | :06:18. | :06:20. | |
generate the power by some other means. Because there will be times | :06:21. | :06:24. | |
of the day, days of the week, weeks of the year, and is no wind and | :06:25. | :06:29. | |
therefore you are entirely reliant on the back-up power, and you need | :06:30. | :06:33. | |
to have a full range of back-up to do it. So, they were always be extra | :06:34. | :06:39. | |
costs involved when you have an unreliable renewable source of | :06:40. | :06:42. | |
energy, like that. And so, I think that on cost grounds, it is vital | :06:43. | :06:49. | |
that we make rapid progress. The election was noticed enough, I would | :06:50. | :06:53. | |
have thought, a prominent unpopular policy that none of us were shy | :06:54. | :06:57. | |
about debating, and we got a lot of support from many people for saying | :06:58. | :07:01. | |
it. The second reason why I think the Government is right to take this | :07:02. | :07:06. | |
action is that because wind power is so intermittent and unreliable, if | :07:07. | :07:10. | |
you have too much wind on your system, then the problems of | :07:11. | :07:12. | |
managing and balancing the system become that much greater. As a | :07:13. | :07:18. | |
Member of Parliament to represent the control centre in Wokingham, I | :07:19. | :07:22. | |
am only too well aware of how that task is made much more expensive and | :07:23. | :07:27. | |
complicated, the more unreliable energy there is on the system. And I | :07:28. | :07:31. | |
think this will be a welcome check on that, which will help manage the | :07:32. | :07:37. | |
system better and provide more reliable power for industry. Again, | :07:38. | :07:40. | |
it will be industry and commerce that take the hit, that if we have | :07:41. | :07:44. | |
to not unreliable power on the system, and that power goes down, | :07:45. | :07:48. | |
they only once asked to forego the use of power for the time period | :07:49. | :07:54. | |
when there is no wind. When we are desperately try to compete in a | :07:55. | :07:57. | |
competitive world, surely it is important, not just to keep the | :07:58. | :08:01. | |
lights on in people's households but to keep the factories turning. For | :08:02. | :08:05. | |
those two very powerful reasons, there are others which I will not | :08:06. | :08:08. | |
detain the House with, I strongly support the Government is doing and | :08:09. | :08:13. | |
would urge the other place to recognise the importance of this | :08:14. | :08:15. | |
work our national energy security, for the sake of the prices charged | :08:16. | :08:20. | |
to our consumers and above all, to remember this was an election | :08:21. | :08:20. | |
pledge. As often as the case, sometimes you | :08:21. | :08:37. | |
don't know what is a formal role in what is just convention. I assumed | :08:38. | :08:42. | |
the reference to ping-pong was a colloquialism. When I look at the | :08:43. | :08:51. | |
order papers, that is the formal name for this process. I was never | :08:52. | :08:55. | |
very good at ping-pong when I was younger. I kept taking my eye off | :08:56. | :09:00. | |
the ball. That is something which could be suggested of the government | :09:01. | :09:03. | |
in terms of this. The dogmatism we are seeing in terms of pursuing this | :09:04. | :09:08. | |
and continuing with the ping-pong back and force is taking the eye off | :09:09. | :09:13. | |
the bigger picture. I agree with the Member for walking. The bigger | :09:14. | :09:23. | |
picture at every stage of this bill has been about the OGA. We could | :09:24. | :09:28. | |
finish this bill just now with a minor acceptance of Lords amendment | :09:29. | :09:34. | |
and be done. That is something I would be supportive of. The | :09:35. | :09:39. | |
amendments put forward I think are sensible and will deliver the | :09:40. | :09:44. | |
pragmatic response I think is beholden upon government to deliver. | :09:45. | :09:52. | |
I am sure everyone has pressing engagements, but given the | :09:53. | :09:57. | |
importance of the OGA put years just outlined and given the state of the | :09:58. | :10:04. | |
oil and gas fields in Scotland, is he a little surprised by the absence | :10:05. | :10:13. | |
of support from his party colleagues? Sometimes it is better | :10:14. | :10:16. | |
to know the answer to the question you're asking before you and is -- | :10:17. | :10:24. | |
before you ask it. A number of my colleagues are meeting constituents | :10:25. | :10:29. | |
who have travelled from Scotland who suffer from motor neurone disease. | :10:30. | :10:38. | |
Given the hugely debilitating aspect of that, I think it is important for | :10:39. | :10:47. | |
them to meet them. At second reading, there were very few SNP MPs | :10:48. | :10:58. | |
present as well. I started by seeing at one point in my youth I was | :10:59. | :11:02. | |
guilty of taking my eye off the ball. In terms of these diversionary | :11:03. | :11:08. | |
tactics, I think we are seeing our eye well and truly off the ball. Not | :11:09. | :11:15. | |
many of us are in the chamber and that is perhaps disappointing. I | :11:16. | :11:29. | |
shall persevere. We are talking about 90 megawatts of onshore wind. | :11:30. | :11:40. | |
The Energy Minister said in February it is our intention to give | :11:41. | :11:44. | |
communities the final say on wind farm development. Of the probably | :11:45. | :11:50. | |
six schemes were talking about, five of them in Scotland received | :11:51. | :12:00. | |
planning consent. One in North Lanarkshire, 24 of November 2014, | :12:01. | :12:10. | |
Dumfries and Galloway, 11 December 2014, Argyll and Bute, three June | :12:11. | :12:21. | |
2015, Dumfries and Galloway, 25 September 2015, South Lanarkshire, | :12:22. | :12:36. | |
January 2015, also 24 February 2015, and also on the 5th of June. All of | :12:37. | :12:40. | |
these are before the cut-off date. As the honourable member's tests | :12:41. | :12:49. | |
suggested, if we are to put local consent at the heart of this, we | :12:50. | :12:53. | |
need to accept the outcomes and wills of the local councils that | :12:54. | :12:59. | |
erected for these schemes to proceed, but through no fault of | :13:00. | :13:05. | |
their own by the developers were not granted the decision notice. To | :13:06. | :13:17. | |
highlight one of those, it is the 20 shilling Hill wind farm. The | :13:18. | :13:24. | |
evidence to the committee from the district community Council stated | :13:25. | :13:33. | |
this. Our communities number nearly 5000 inhabitants. Since the closure | :13:34. | :13:39. | |
of coal mines, they have stumbled from crisis to crisis. We are not | :13:40. | :13:50. | |
dependent. Wind farm money will release money to improve the area in | :13:51. | :14:02. | |
which we live. That is local empowerment. We are talking about | :14:03. | :14:07. | |
local consent, local support. In the case of 20 shilling Hill, that has | :14:08. | :14:13. | |
unmistakably got the support of the communities in which it will be. For | :14:14. | :14:24. | |
the sake of Pugh points of dogmatic principle from the government, we | :14:25. | :14:28. | |
are seeing that taken away through no fault of the community or the | :14:29. | :14:32. | |
developer, but to purely persevere in what is really an unnecessary | :14:33. | :14:37. | |
way. I would urge the government to get the eye back on the ball here. | :14:38. | :14:43. | |
To see the energy bill passed today. If we carry on with this ping-pong | :14:44. | :14:49. | |
back and forth, we risk delaying it further. Can I put something to him | :14:50. | :14:55. | |
that I think I put to him in the Bill committee, which is on the | :14:56. | :15:03. | |
point of principle, if there are schemes in Scotland that the SNP | :15:04. | :15:08. | |
Scottish Government wished to continue, why don't they simply pay | :15:09. | :15:13. | |
for them themselves? Because there is no mechanism. We discussed that | :15:14. | :15:20. | |
and the honourable member 40 against the mechanism that would allow that | :15:21. | :15:26. | |
to happen. I don't see how that question focuses on what the issue | :15:27. | :15:33. | |
is. Support could have been given. What happened was he wanted the | :15:34. | :15:37. | |
power but they were not going to pay for it. That was the point we | :15:38. | :15:41. | |
discussed in Bill committee. They were not prepared to pay for it. We | :15:42. | :15:48. | |
had a number of debates. The question he asked is how would we do | :15:49. | :15:57. | |
it. We can't. Pure and simple. People would like to see pragmatic | :15:58. | :16:01. | |
government. What we are seeing today is dogmatic government. It is | :16:02. | :16:09. | |
dismissing the views of communities. I am coming to a close. I would urge | :16:10. | :16:14. | |
the government to show pragmatism today. It is a pleasure to listen to | :16:15. | :16:23. | |
a message from the other place and disagree with it wholeheartedly. A | :16:24. | :16:29. | |
few hours after the German government started to withdraw | :16:30. | :16:38. | |
subsidy from onshore wind subsidies because of the same reasons we are | :16:39. | :16:45. | |
doing in this country. In previous debates and in committee I described | :16:46. | :16:51. | |
my campaign to get this clear manifesto pledge out of my party. I | :16:52. | :17:06. | |
won't go through it again. I know we are time-limited. It stemmed from | :17:07. | :17:15. | |
the decision in my constituency. To make the point to member is not in | :17:16. | :17:18. | |
this place who understand how important it is to represent their | :17:19. | :17:22. | |
constituents, but maybe to some of those in the other place, that | :17:23. | :17:29. | |
actually it was not just one small village in my constituency affected | :17:30. | :17:40. | |
by an onshore wind decision, there were several towns and villages | :17:41. | :17:41. | |
involved. Many villages and the town of | :17:42. | :17:56. | |
Daventry. All affected by proposals for unwanted onshore wind farms | :17:57. | :18:04. | |
around them. That is why we had the letter signed by 101 members of | :18:05. | :18:08. | |
Parliament in the last mandate of this Parliament to the Prime | :18:09. | :18:14. | |
Minister to get this change. That is why there was the long battle across | :18:15. | :18:20. | |
the four of this House about whether we should be subsidising onshore | :18:21. | :18:26. | |
wind. That is why there was a clear manifesto pledge by the Conservative | :18:27. | :18:34. | |
Party to stop funding onshore wind. And why I understand the Member for | :18:35. | :18:42. | |
Aberdeen South and Southampton have highlighted small factors within the | :18:43. | :18:46. | |
grace period, this is a clear manifesto pledge, a clear principle | :18:47. | :18:51. | |
that people in my constituency wanted me to an expected me to fight | :18:52. | :18:56. | |
for. I have to say, I'm not going to listen to those in the other house | :18:57. | :19:01. | |
who are determined to use party politics on this. There are no Lib | :19:02. | :19:09. | |
Dem is in the chamber today. It is the Lib Dems who fought to reform | :19:10. | :19:22. | |
the other chamber and there are now using that to abuse the democratic | :19:23. | :19:28. | |
process of this country. They know full well what they are doing. I | :19:29. | :19:34. | |
thought when Lord Wallace decided that he wanted to interpret the | :19:35. | :19:38. | |
Conservative Party manifesto it was interesting that many of the Lib | :19:39. | :19:42. | |
Dems who supported him had been defeated by people supporting the | :19:43. | :19:47. | |
Conservative Party manifesto and had lost their seats. One of the reasons | :19:48. | :19:52. | |
they lost their seats was because in the can bash in their communities | :19:53. | :19:57. | |
they could not defend onshore wind turbines. A clear party manifesto | :19:58. | :20:02. | |
commitment of my party to get rid of them. I will happily give way. We | :20:03. | :20:10. | |
are talking about a small number of wind farms. I don't believe any of | :20:11. | :20:20. | |
those Liberal Democrats would have lost to the Conservative Party. He | :20:21. | :20:25. | |
said he had a small trouble with conventions. Solder some members of | :20:26. | :20:32. | |
the House of Lords. I'm trying to remind them of one that is a long | :20:33. | :20:39. | |
standing convention in this place, that when our party has a manifesto | :20:40. | :20:45. | |
commitment and it enacts legislation, it should not be | :20:46. | :20:50. | |
overturned by those unelected at the other end of this corridor. When you | :20:51. | :20:58. | |
look at who voted for the amendments in the Lords, for this message to be | :20:59. | :21:01. | |
sent to the Commons, you will see a whole list of names of former bash | :21:02. | :21:06. | |
former members of Parliament from this place who lost their seats | :21:07. | :21:13. | |
because of that very manifesto they are trying to overturn from an -- | :21:14. | :21:25. | |
unelected place. This is without doubt, I was there from the very | :21:26. | :21:29. | |
concept of this manifesto pledge through to point of delivery, on the | :21:30. | :21:34. | |
energy Bill committee, I am pretty sure that I know what our manifesto | :21:35. | :21:41. | |
pledge was and I am pretty sure the people voting for it in my | :21:42. | :21:47. | |
constituency knew what it was. It was on my leaflets. Fairly plain for | :21:48. | :21:51. | |
all to see. I very much wish to send a message to those down the other | :21:52. | :21:57. | |
end but they are dabbling with democracy here. They're not just | :21:58. | :21:59. | |
fighting for the principle of a grace period for six wind farms. | :22:00. | :22:08. | |
They are actually fighting against a clear manifesto pledge from the | :22:09. | :22:14. | |
governing party. I wonder if he had on his election leaflet details of | :22:15. | :22:17. | |
the grace periods that would have been put in place as the consequence | :22:18. | :22:24. | |
to the manifesto commitment? If he didn't have those, then he has to | :22:25. | :22:32. | |
conclude that the question of grace periods is not to do with the | :22:33. | :22:36. | |
manifesto commitment but about circumstances under which that | :22:37. | :22:43. | |
manifesto commitment might be more Alice Paul and that is what we are | :22:44. | :22:45. | |
discussing today. That is the sort of thing I probably | :22:46. | :22:55. | |
would have had etched in stone for people to laugh at. Of course I | :22:56. | :23:03. | |
didn't have a thing about grace periods in my local leaflets to | :23:04. | :23:08. | |
constituents, because I thought they would get the fact that when we said | :23:09. | :23:13. | |
there was no subsidy for onshore wind, that people would understand | :23:14. | :23:18. | |
exactly what that meant and would not have to dance on the head of a | :23:19. | :23:23. | |
pin for a simple party political point. I began. My constituents | :23:24. | :23:30. | |
aren't desperate for this measure to come through. They are desperate for | :23:31. | :23:35. | |
measures to help the oil and gas industry to come through. They are | :23:36. | :23:40. | |
surprised that Lib Dems down the other end of the corridor in This | :23:41. | :23:43. | |
Place are willing to play politics with the elected Chamber or a point | :23:44. | :23:48. | |
in a manifesto that they were heartily defeated on. And they are | :23:49. | :23:54. | |
annoyed by the fact that this matter hasn't become law already. Madam | :23:55. | :24:02. | |
Deputy Speaker, it was great to serve on the bill committee and if I | :24:03. | :24:07. | |
do return briefly to this point that was raised by the member for | :24:08. | :24:12. | |
Aberdeen South, I think it is important that the record is | :24:13. | :24:16. | |
straight. Before I give my reasons in relation to supporting the | :24:17. | :24:20. | |
government today, my recollection, and I am happy for this to be | :24:21. | :24:25. | |
clarified, is that when the SNP tabled amendments to have the power | :24:26. | :24:30. | |
to keep these projects open, when asked, they did not confirm that | :24:31. | :24:36. | |
they would also put the money up to support them, and the justification | :24:37. | :24:39. | |
given related to the nuclear industry. As I recall, they said it | :24:40. | :24:43. | |
was fair not to have to pay for it because after all they have to pay | :24:44. | :24:47. | |
towards the nuclear industry which they don't agree with. Thereafter, I | :24:48. | :24:51. | |
put it to them, would they want to be cut off from the electricity | :24:52. | :24:56. | |
supply that comes from the nuclear sector in this country, and the | :24:57. | :25:01. | |
answer was no. As always, they want to have their cake and eat it, like | :25:02. | :25:04. | |
the Mayor of London, but unlike the Mayor of London they don't make the | :25:05. | :25:08. | |
arduous with such grace, although the honourable gentleman has tried | :25:09. | :25:12. | |
his best and has got some extra support in to back him up. My | :25:13. | :25:21. | |
reasons are clear. The first relates to the simple principle of democracy | :25:22. | :25:31. | |
and the position of my constituents, overwhelmingly my constituents want | :25:32. | :25:34. | |
to see the policy on onshore wind in acted, and in acted in good time. | :25:35. | :25:38. | |
Since at ending the Bill committee I have been out and about in the | :25:39. | :25:41. | |
constituency and this continues to come up. I attended a meeting in my | :25:42. | :25:50. | |
constituency of a fine of up standing group of ladies and | :25:51. | :25:54. | |
gentlemen who are committed to preserving and protecting the | :25:55. | :25:56. | |
natural beauty and heritage of the countryside in South Suffolk, | :25:57. | :26:01. | |
particularly a peninsular where the River Stour meets the River Orwell | :26:02. | :26:06. | |
and is a very fine and place to come and visit and is not particularly | :26:07. | :26:11. | |
blighted by large constructions that would be affected by these changes, | :26:12. | :26:16. | |
so overwhelmingly the constituency position is that they support these | :26:17. | :26:19. | |
changes and want to see them come through. The second point, as has | :26:20. | :26:24. | |
been alluded to by my Right Honourable Friend and others, is the | :26:25. | :26:31. | |
oil and gas authority, I want to echo the point already made that we | :26:32. | :26:38. | |
should not delay a bill... Is the honourable gentleman intervening? We | :26:39. | :26:46. | |
can proceed today if the government agrees to this particular amendment. | :26:47. | :26:50. | |
Therefore the issue of the oil and gas agency can go forward with good | :26:51. | :26:54. | |
speed, which we all want to happen. If the honourable gentleman is happy | :26:55. | :27:02. | |
to provide ?10 million so that the taxpayer and illiteracy the | :27:03. | :27:04. | |
customers that have to be so encumbered, then we can move right | :27:05. | :27:08. | |
away. We have a clear position. The bill as set out has not changed in | :27:09. | :27:12. | |
terms of the fundamental point about the oil and gas authority. When we | :27:13. | :27:15. | |
had the second reading, that day, the price of oil was $27 a barrel | :27:16. | :27:23. | |
and it is now roundabout $44, so there has been some stabilisation, | :27:24. | :27:27. | |
but that word has to be used carefully, because when one looks at | :27:28. | :27:33. | |
what happens around the world, there was a piece on continuing a | :27:34. | :27:37. | |
stability in Jamaica and Saudi Arabia is now starting to borrow | :27:38. | :27:41. | |
from the markets. The concern is that the price might go up, it might | :27:42. | :27:45. | |
go back down again. It is an uncertain outlook. Having this bill | :27:46. | :27:49. | |
passed into law with this new, respect regulator will add stability | :27:50. | :27:54. | |
and credibility to the sector at an important time. It is not a magic | :27:55. | :27:58. | |
wand. It will not heal the problems that are there in this vital | :27:59. | :28:02. | |
industry for the United Kingdom, but I do think it is a key part of | :28:03. | :28:07. | |
energy policy and proposition and that is why the Bill should go | :28:08. | :28:11. | |
through as soon as. Is in place a it is about our national interest which | :28:12. | :28:16. | |
for many decades has been tied to North Sea oil and to the energy | :28:17. | :28:20. | |
sector and the East Anglia and economy, not just Scotland, the East | :28:21. | :28:24. | |
Anglian economy has significant output and jobs coming from the oil | :28:25. | :28:28. | |
sector, so I would encourage all members to support the government on | :28:29. | :28:34. | |
this. Our reasons are clear. It is about supporting the energy sector | :28:35. | :28:37. | |
and respecting the democratic rule of the people of the United Kingdom. | :28:38. | :28:42. | |
I think we all hope that the energy bill would by now have completed its | :28:43. | :28:47. | |
progress through Parliament. It is a shame that it has not, especially as | :28:48. | :28:51. | |
the closure of the renewables obligation for onshore wind was a | :28:52. | :28:55. | |
clear manifesto commitment made by the government before the last | :28:56. | :29:00. | |
election. This is a popular pledge, especially in my own constituency, | :29:01. | :29:05. | |
there are positions for wind farms on the Mendips which are widespread. | :29:06. | :29:10. | |
It is difficult to explain to them that this manifesto commitment, the | :29:11. | :29:15. | |
government has a clear mandate to deliver, has not been enacted | :29:16. | :29:18. | |
because of the intervention of the unelected members of the Other | :29:19. | :29:24. | |
Place. Especially, as has been noted by a number of my friends on the | :29:25. | :29:29. | |
side of the House, as the House of Lords, the opposition has been | :29:30. | :29:32. | |
abetted in the House of Lords, by a party that was so roundly rejected | :29:33. | :29:37. | |
in Somerset, in the south-west and across the country as a whole, and | :29:38. | :29:42. | |
yet not one of them has come to this elected Chamber today, mad that the | :29:43. | :29:49. | |
Speaker, to justify the actions of their unelected colleagues in the | :29:50. | :29:54. | |
Other Place. The illiberal un-Democrats have a great deal to | :29:55. | :30:00. | |
answer for. And I'm looking to actually both the Secretary of State | :30:01. | :30:04. | |
and Minister of State for their forbearance in seeing this bill | :30:05. | :30:06. | |
through Parliament. I understand the Secretary of State spent some time | :30:07. | :30:11. | |
at the bar of the other House to try and eyeball those who were delaying | :30:12. | :30:15. | |
it the other day. Sadly, they had their way and we are here yet again | :30:16. | :30:20. | |
to debate this bill. Madam Deputy Speaker, it is important we do not | :30:21. | :30:23. | |
allow the closure of the renewables organ at -- obligation for onshore | :30:24. | :30:30. | |
wind to be cast as anti-green. It has been widespread despite strong | :30:31. | :30:34. | |
opposition here in This Place with my honourable member -- friend the | :30:35. | :30:38. | |
member for Daventry in the vanguard, but also for communities across the | :30:39. | :30:43. | |
constituencies of this country. ?800 million of subsidy has meant that | :30:44. | :30:50. | |
490 onshore wind farms exist and there are just under 5000 turbines | :30:51. | :30:57. | |
already operating so this is not an anti-wind or anti-green measure. The | :30:58. | :31:03. | |
government has needed to deliver its manifesto commitment to make sure | :31:04. | :31:06. | |
that bill payers are not expected to fit the bill for the excess | :31:07. | :31:09. | |
deployment of this type of generation. Let us be clear, the | :31:10. | :31:15. | |
government is well on track to achieve 30% of its electricity | :31:16. | :31:19. | |
generation from reasonable sources by 2020, and we should congratulate | :31:20. | :31:22. | |
them for that. This is a government that is serious about | :31:23. | :31:27. | |
decarbonisation, about security of supply, and about keeping bills | :31:28. | :31:32. | |
down. A line must be drawn somewhere. The government 's | :31:33. | :31:37. | |
decision on this is, in my view, entirely reasonable. So let's reject | :31:38. | :31:43. | |
Lords Amendment 70 and stop the onshore wind industry from impeding | :31:44. | :31:45. | |
the progress of a bill that principally establishes all the | :31:46. | :31:53. | |
important functions that the LGA has in the oil and gas industry, | :31:54. | :31:58. | |
safeguarding thousands of jobs, contributing billions to the economy | :31:59. | :32:01. | |
and protecting an essential component of not only our energy | :32:02. | :32:05. | |
security but, I would argue, our national security, too. It is well | :32:06. | :32:11. | |
timed that we moved on with this bill, Madam Deputy Speaker, and that | :32:12. | :32:15. | |
the Lords accented the will of this elected Chamber. It is time that we | :32:16. | :32:20. | |
focused our energy is not on onshore wind but on using the government | :32:21. | :32:25. | |
structure to encourage the technologies that we envisage as | :32:26. | :32:28. | |
part of the energy mix for the next 20-30 years, like offshore wind and | :32:29. | :32:33. | |
new nuclear. I am just wrapping up, but please... Meilleroux friend is | :32:34. | :32:39. | |
making a powerful and well-informed speech. While ending the subsidy for | :32:40. | :32:44. | |
onshore wind, there is a future role for onshore wind and we have got to | :32:45. | :32:49. | |
carry on making sure that onshore wind whilst it is not subsidised | :32:50. | :32:53. | |
does not lose out compared to the price is granted to other | :32:54. | :32:59. | |
technologies as we go forward. I accept his point to a degree. This | :33:00. | :33:04. | |
is not so much the end of onshore wind, it is clear that it is time | :33:05. | :33:07. | |
for it to find its own feet and go its way, and where it can be sited | :33:08. | :33:14. | |
in a permissive planning environment, I drive up the M5 | :33:15. | :33:18. | |
regularly passed the onshore wind turbines at Avonmouth, and one might | :33:19. | :33:21. | |
argue that in that industrial setting they are entirely | :33:22. | :33:25. | |
reasonable. Providing they can be sited in such a place and do not | :33:26. | :33:29. | |
require any further government subsidy then of course they may | :33:30. | :33:33. | |
continue, but it is important that that subsidy ends and it ends with | :33:34. | :33:38. | |
the passage of this bill also what is important is that the energy | :33:39. | :33:40. | |
agenda Select Committee have recently begun pre-legislative | :33:41. | :33:44. | |
scrutiny for the next energy bill. There is a great deal in that which | :33:45. | :33:48. | |
is quite exciting, in my view. Let's get on with this one -- let's get | :33:49. | :33:54. | |
this one done and get on with that one. It is a pleasure to take part | :33:55. | :33:58. | |
in this debate. We have an interesting contributions from | :33:59. | :34:02. | |
across the House. On the issue of ending subsidy of onshore wind, the | :34:03. | :34:08. | |
aim of subsidy regimes for renewable technology is to encourage and drive | :34:09. | :34:13. | |
down the cost, over time, to the point where they no longer need | :34:14. | :34:17. | |
subsidies. And the government did put it in its manifesto. Personally, | :34:18. | :34:23. | |
I think the party opposite has a lot to do with this because they | :34:24. | :34:25. | |
wouldn't listen to communities like my own who felt that they were | :34:26. | :34:31. | |
having wind farms imposed upon them, blighting their view, the landscape | :34:32. | :34:35. | |
and that sense of loss of control, even more than the imposition of the | :34:36. | :34:39. | |
turbines was something that rated a great deal of resentment and we have | :34:40. | :34:42. | |
ended up in a position where the party which they did win a majority | :34:43. | :34:48. | |
stood on a promise to end that subsidy. We have also made provision | :34:49. | :34:54. | |
to ensure that onshore wind, if it does go-ahead, does so with the | :34:55. | :34:59. | |
support of the local community. And that was the issue that should have | :35:00. | :35:03. | |
been sorted and it would have been sorted sooner, and we would not have | :35:04. | :35:07. | |
needed to create a special, we would not cover the backlash that would | :35:08. | :35:10. | |
have found form through the agency of my on Bulbring sitting there side | :35:11. | :35:15. | |
meet, that they feel the subsidy resume is imposing this, these | :35:16. | :35:19. | |
turbines on us. It was the permissions rather than the subsidy | :35:20. | :35:22. | |
which is was the central issue but we are where we are. Further to my | :35:23. | :35:27. | |
intervention on My Honourable Friend for Wells, we need to make sure | :35:28. | :35:32. | |
that, given that we have an energy market now where the price charged | :35:33. | :35:39. | |
for energy be -- imagery from producers is far less than anyone | :35:40. | :35:43. | |
could afford to commission new production for, we have a rather | :35:44. | :35:50. | |
artificial market. So I hope and expect and I know that ministers are | :35:51. | :35:53. | |
looking at this, we need to make sure that we have a regime going | :35:54. | :35:56. | |
forward around contracts for difference or whatever else, so that | :35:57. | :36:01. | |
onshore wind is not artificially blocked from getting access to the | :36:02. | :36:08. | |
market, because of the way the pricing within that market operates. | :36:09. | :36:11. | |
It is perfectly possible for us to ensure that there is no subsidy of | :36:12. | :36:16. | |
onshore wind whilst making sure that onshore wind alone is deprived of | :36:17. | :36:24. | |
access to the mechanisms that drive new commissioning that every other | :36:25. | :36:27. | |
technology has. I hope we will get agreement across the House, so long | :36:28. | :36:34. | |
as immunities have the final say on whether -- communities have the | :36:35. | :36:38. | |
final say on whether there is new wind farm capacity brought into | :36:39. | :36:41. | |
their area and that onshore wind is treated no differently than other | :36:42. | :36:44. | |
technologies, including fossil fuels, like gas, then that is a | :36:45. | :36:49. | |
situation which we need to bring about. I will give way. It is quite | :36:50. | :36:56. | |
difficult issue on how you attribute cost to the stand-by power which | :36:57. | :36:59. | |
wind uniquely needs in a way that others don't. I agree there are | :37:00. | :37:05. | |
issues. My Right Honourable Friend, in his speech, did not reflect upon | :37:06. | :37:10. | |
the success of the government because I know that he is sceptical | :37:11. | :37:14. | |
both about climate change and about government approach over the years | :37:15. | :37:17. | |
towards this. What is undeniable is, if you look at the way that the cost | :37:18. | :37:22. | |
curve has been accelerated, because we were in a position when clean | :37:23. | :37:26. | |
energy was ridiculously more expensive than fossil fuels, which | :37:27. | :37:33. | |
poisoned the air, as well as having climate risks attached to it as | :37:34. | :37:36. | |
well, therefore what we have actually seen is driving down that | :37:37. | :37:40. | |
cost and we're at that point now where onshore wind is in a position | :37:41. | :37:44. | |
where it should be able to compete on a level playing field with new | :37:45. | :37:52. | |
gas fired power stations, and we are not going to see any more coal, and | :37:53. | :37:56. | |
we have seen, if we look at offshore wind, just a few years ago it was | :37:57. | :38:03. | |
?150 per megawatt hour, now we are looking at what was announced in the | :38:04. | :38:07. | |
Autumn Statement, we're going to see a ceiling of around 105 pounds per | :38:08. | :38:11. | |
megawatt hour and by the time begets two to 2020, the mid-decade, we're | :38:12. | :38:18. | |
looking at below ?85 per megawatt hour, which mile right on both | :38:19. | :38:22. | |
friends will know is less than has been guaranteed to Hinckley. We are | :38:23. | :38:28. | |
moving to a world of reusables, and as part of the reset we are going to | :38:29. | :38:33. | |
have an improved approach to encouraging storage, to encouraging | :38:34. | :38:37. | |
demand management and roll out of smart meters as part of that, | :38:38. | :38:40. | |
efforts are going with the National Grid with major industries to find | :38:41. | :38:45. | |
the cheapest way of encouraging them not to use energy at times when the | :38:46. | :38:50. | |
grid is being pushed, as well as getting into connectors as well. So | :38:51. | :38:53. | |
we are building the more intelligent systems which will take cost out of | :38:54. | :38:58. | |
the intermittent renewables sector, at the same time that there is | :38:59. | :39:01. | |
really does become cheaper in their production costs, more efficient and | :39:02. | :39:07. | |
are helping us to meet our climate change objectives. | :39:08. | :39:11. | |
I think, with that, I am pleased to say that it is time that we did get | :39:12. | :39:20. | |
this law into place. Make sure that the Oil and Gas UK order to years | :39:21. | :39:25. | |
able to do this work, and if, as I expect there will be, a rise in oil | :39:26. | :39:31. | |
price, we will have an oil business in this country that is fit for | :39:32. | :39:35. | |
purpose, efficient, and will deliver jobs in Scotland and elsewhere in | :39:36. | :39:39. | |
the United Kingdom. With leave of the House. The energy bill will | :39:40. | :39:45. | |
enact our manifesto commitments. First of all in creating the oil and | :39:46. | :39:53. | |
gas authority, which is part of our continued support of North Sea oil | :39:54. | :39:57. | |
and gas. We are implementing the recommendations of the review by Sir | :39:58. | :40:00. | |
Ian Wood, and we are doing everything we can to try to ensure | :40:01. | :40:04. | |
the long-term survival and thriving of this critical UK industry. The | :40:05. | :40:11. | |
North Sea oil and gas industry has been the UK's largest industrial | :40:12. | :40:14. | |
investor for many decades and has paid billions of pounds in | :40:15. | :40:21. | |
corporation tax is in production. But becomes more difficult to access | :40:22. | :40:24. | |
and we cannot and must not accept any delay in completing this bill, | :40:25. | :40:30. | |
so we can get the Oil and Gas UK authority the powers it needs to | :40:31. | :40:37. | |
maximise the recovery. Industry and governments share the same | :40:38. | :40:42. | |
ambitions. They are working closely together to manage the remaining | :40:43. | :40:45. | |
resources effectively and efficiently, and I find it | :40:46. | :40:49. | |
disappointing that honourable members opposite who should know | :40:50. | :40:54. | |
better are somehow suggesting that I adding only ?10 extra per person to | :40:55. | :41:01. | |
consumer bills this afternoon we can somehow achieve the aim of setting | :41:02. | :41:05. | |
up the gas and oil authority early. They should be ashamed of themselves | :41:06. | :41:10. | |
and should be supporting the speedy conclusion of this bill to Royal | :41:11. | :41:14. | |
assent for the sake of the Oil and Gas UK is too that they all profess | :41:15. | :41:21. | |
to support. Turning to the delivery of the government's manifesto | :41:22. | :41:25. | |
commitments on onshore wind. Ending new subsidies for onshore wind and | :41:26. | :41:30. | |
ensuring that local people have the final say on whether onshore wind is | :41:31. | :41:36. | |
built is what the government promised in our manifesto. Members | :41:37. | :41:39. | |
opposite as suggesting that just because they are is local agreement | :41:40. | :41:43. | |
to it, therefore it is fine to add more to the bills for all consumers | :41:44. | :41:48. | |
across Great Britain. That simply is not the case. It is our duty as | :41:49. | :41:53. | |
consumer champions at least on this side of the House to cook the costs | :41:54. | :41:58. | |
down to consumers, and that is what we will do. Onshore wind has | :41:59. | :42:04. | |
deployed successfully and is expected to meet our plant used by | :42:05. | :42:12. | |
2020, but we do not want to provide subsidies where they are no longer | :42:13. | :42:18. | |
necessary and adding to the costs of consumers. We must have the right | :42:19. | :42:23. | |
balance between each of the priorities, to keep the lights on, | :42:24. | :42:28. | |
to keep bills down, and to decarbonise at the lowest possible | :42:29. | :42:31. | |
price, but above all else we really want to see today members right | :42:32. | :42:37. | |
across this chamber supporting these amendments so we can get the oil and | :42:38. | :42:44. | |
gas authority... Order, I must now bring to a conclusion proceedings on | :42:45. | :42:49. | |
consideration of the Lord's message to the energy Bill Lord's. The | :42:50. | :42:53. | |
question is that this House agrees with the Lords under amendment said | :42:54. | :43:07. | |
in a. The ayes have it. -- ayes. The question is that this has disagrees | :43:08. | :43:10. | |
with the Lord's and their amendment 17. Division, clear of the lobby. -- | :43:11. | :43:23. | |
clear the lobby. The question is that this House | :43:24. | :44:14. | |
disagrees with the Lords and their amendment. | :44:15. | :51:21. | |
Order, order. The Ayes to the right, 293. The Noes to the left, 224. | :51:22. | :56:52. | |
The Ayes to the right, the hundred 93, the Noes to the left, 224, the | :56:53. | :57:00. | |
Ayes have it, the Ayes have it, unlock. The question is that this | :57:01. | :57:03. | |
House agrees with the Lords on all the remaining amendments As many as | :57:04. | :57:07. | |
are of that opinion say aye, contrary no. I think the Ayes have | :57:08. | :57:13. | |
it. The Minister to move that the committee be appointed to draw up | :57:14. | :57:20. | |
readings. I move that a committee be appointed a reading to be assigned | :57:21. | :57:31. | |
to the Lords for disagreeing to the amendments 17 that Andrew Ellis and | :57:32. | :57:37. | |
be the Chair of the committee, that the committee to withdraw | :57:38. | :57:42. | |
immediately. The question is that the committee be appointed to draw | :57:43. | :57:46. | |
up a reason to be assigned to the laws for disagreeing to the | :57:47. | :57:49. | |
amendments 17 propose to Commons amendment seven, that James | :57:50. | :57:55. | |
Cartledge, Andrea Letson, Holly Lynch, Calum MacRae, Paul Julian | :57:56. | :57:58. | |
Smith and Doctor Adam Whitehead being members of the committee that | :57:59. | :58:04. | |
Angela Letson be the Chair of the committee, that three B the quorum | :58:05. | :58:07. | |
of the committee, that the committee do with law immediately, As many as | :58:08. | :58:12. | |
are of that opinion say aye, contrary no. I think the Ayes have | :58:13. | :58:14. | |
it, the Ayes have it. We now come to the backbench debate | :58:15. | :58:30. | |
on the recognition of genocide by Daesh against Christians, Yazifdis | :58:31. | :58:38. | |
and other ethnic and religious minorities. We will be strict about | :58:39. | :58:43. | |
opening speeches being 15 minutes and no more, including | :58:44. | :58:45. | |
interventions, but there will be an eight minute limit on backbench | :58:46. | :58:51. | |
contributions. If I can remained honourable members that when | :58:52. | :58:54. | |
interventions are taken and a minute two minutes are added to their | :58:55. | :58:58. | |
speech, then that is minutes taken out of speeches of members later on | :58:59. | :59:04. | |
down the Speaker's list, so people could be aware of that I would be | :59:05. | :59:11. | |
very grateful. My thanks to the backbench business committee for | :59:12. | :59:15. | |
allowing time for this debate. Genocide is a word of such gravity | :59:16. | :59:18. | |
that it should never be used readily. It is rightly known as the | :59:19. | :59:24. | |
crime above all crimes. For this reason it is incumbent upon us to | :59:25. | :59:28. | |
prevent devaluation or overuse of it. But such caution must not stop | :59:29. | :59:34. | |
us naming genocide when one is taking place. The proposers of this | :59:35. | :59:40. | |
motion are here to insist that the overwhelming evidence of the | :59:41. | :59:44. | |
atrocities of Daesh in Syria and Iraq is recognised for the genocide | :59:45. | :59:51. | |
it is and is considered as such by the UN Security Council and | :59:52. | :59:53. | |
International Criminal Court. This will support similar resolutions of | :59:54. | :59:57. | |
other leading international and legislative bodies. There are only | :59:58. | :00:04. | |
two possibilities here. If the House is not satisfied that genocidal | :00:05. | :00:07. | |
atrocities are being perpetrated, we must not pass this motion on which I | :00:08. | :00:12. | |
am minded to test the will of the House. If colleagues believe that | :00:13. | :00:19. | |
the depravities of Daesh are being taken with genocidal intent, then we | :00:20. | :00:23. | |
have already waited far too long to recognise this. Yesterday evening | :00:24. | :00:29. | |
here in the UK Parliament, we heard the truly harrowing personal | :00:30. | :00:36. | |
testimony of a brave 60 rolled Yazidi girl. She was seized along | :00:37. | :00:39. | |
with others from her community by Daesh from her home in Sinjar, | :00:40. | :00:49. | |
northern Iraq. At 15 she told how she saw her father and brother | :00:50. | :00:53. | |
killed in front of her, and every girl in her community over the age | :00:54. | :00:56. | |
of eight was imprisoned and rape. She spoke of witnessing her friends | :00:57. | :01:00. | |
being raped and hearing their screams, of seeing a girl aged nine | :01:01. | :01:03. | |
being raped by so many men that she died. Many young girls had their | :01:04. | :01:08. | |
larger bodies rendered incapable of pregnancy and others far too young | :01:09. | :01:12. | |
to do so were made pregnant. Horrifically, she spoke of seeing a | :01:13. | :01:19. | |
two-year-old boy being killed, his body parts ground down and then fed | :01:20. | :01:27. | |
to his own mother. She told of children being brainwashed and | :01:28. | :01:29. | |
forced to kill the run parents. Fortunately, she managed to escape | :01:30. | :01:33. | |
risen during a bombardment of the area around it. Others are not so | :01:34. | :01:40. | |
fortunate. We heard from another woman, Yvette, who had come from | :01:41. | :01:44. | |
Syria for last night's meeting and spoke of Christie 's been killed and | :01:45. | :01:47. | |
tortured, of children being beheaded in front of their parents. She | :01:48. | :01:52. | |
showed recent phone footage of her talking with mothers who had seen | :01:53. | :01:57. | |
the Rhone children crucified and another woman who sold 250 children | :01:58. | :02:06. | |
put through a dough kneader and burned in an oven. The oldest was | :02:07. | :02:09. | |
four years old. And of a mother with two-month-old baby. When Daesh not | :02:10. | :02:14. | |
that the front door and ordered the family out of the House, she pleaded | :02:15. | :02:18. | |
to let them collect a child from another room. They told, no, go. It | :02:19. | :02:30. | |
is ours now. Thank you for bringing forward is very important debate. | :02:31. | :02:34. | |
She's making a very powerful speech. Every year members of this House | :02:35. | :02:39. | |
signed the Holocaust book of commitment, making that pledge that | :02:40. | :02:44. | |
that terrible genocide will never be forgotten. I signed a pledge that I | :02:45. | :02:49. | |
will never walk on by. Does the honourable lady agree that today we | :02:50. | :02:55. | |
have an opportunity to, none of us, walk on by, as we see this terrible | :02:56. | :03:00. | |
genocide unfold? After the horrors of the Holocaust, the words "Never | :03:01. | :03:04. | |
again" resounded through civilisation. We must not let them | :03:05. | :03:10. | |
resound again. Speaking to MPs at yesterday's meeting, the young girl | :03:11. | :03:14. | |
called us, listen to me, help the girls, help those in captivity, I am | :03:15. | :03:18. | |
pleading with you. Let us come together and call this what it is, a | :03:19. | :03:22. | |
genocide. This is about human dignity. You have a responsibility | :03:23. | :03:27. | |
to stop Isis are committing genocide because they are trying to wipe us | :03:28. | :03:33. | |
out. Genocide is an internationally recognised crime defined in 1948 | :03:34. | :03:37. | |
Convention on genocide to which we are a signatory as a country, it is | :03:38. | :03:42. | |
an attempt to destroy in whole or in part national, ethnic, racial or | :03:43. | :03:47. | |
religious groups by killing, causing seriously bodily or mental harm, or | :03:48. | :03:52. | |
conditions casually to the bring about destruction of the group or | :03:53. | :03:57. | |
imposing measures intended to prevent or forcibly transferring | :03:58. | :04:01. | |
children. Measures that not every single one of these criteria is | :04:02. | :04:05. | |
satisfied by those two testimonies yesterday. After this, because of | :04:06. | :04:13. | |
the limitation which has been placed upon my time I will not take any | :04:14. | :04:21. | |
further interventions. I thank the honourable lady for giving way and | :04:22. | :04:24. | |
applaud her for bringing this motion to the floor of the House. Talking | :04:25. | :04:28. | |
about using the term genocide, international partners like the | :04:29. | :04:33. | |
United States and the European Parliament have said that the acts | :04:34. | :04:37. | |
committed by Daesh amount to genocide so we should be | :04:38. | :04:42. | |
interpreting it as international law and working with partners in order | :04:43. | :04:47. | |
to defeat that. I absolutely agree. We want to be leading, our country | :04:48. | :04:55. | |
has proud record of assuming that aggressors are brought to justice | :04:56. | :04:58. | |
and in this case, we must do so, too. Yazidi and Christians have been | :04:59. | :05:06. | |
targeted because of their religion and ethnicity, but also other groups | :05:07. | :05:15. | |
such as the gritty. The suffering of these women is replicated by others. | :05:16. | :05:23. | |
I have seen many reports documenting evidence of genocidal atrocities, as | :05:24. | :05:26. | |
I am sure other members have won the office of United Nations High | :05:27. | :05:30. | |
Commissioner for human rights, and others. Thousands of pages recording | :05:31. | :05:40. | |
executions, mass graves, crucifixions, systematic rape, | :05:41. | :05:44. | |
torture of men, women and children, beheadings and other acts of | :05:45. | :05:47. | |
violence so unspeakable there even all seems almost fictional, but it | :05:48. | :05:54. | |
is not. -- The Eagle. Daesh is targeting specific groups precisely | :05:55. | :05:56. | |
because of the characteristics of those groups and it has declared | :05:57. | :06:03. | |
this, it has declared that its acts have genocidal intent. For example | :06:04. | :06:07. | |
through its online magazine, in issue four, it says, it tells its | :06:08. | :06:13. | |
followers, they will be held accountable if the Yazidi people | :06:14. | :06:22. | |
continue to exist. If we do not recognise this as genocide, we might | :06:23. | :06:28. | |
as well reject the genocide commission as a worthless piece of | :06:29. | :06:31. | |
paper. As a consequence of the evidence meticulously collected by | :06:32. | :06:38. | |
NGOs, and activists and the UN, resolutions have been passed around | :06:39. | :06:41. | |
the world condemning the actions of Daesh as genocide. The Council of | :06:42. | :06:45. | |
Europe in January, European Parliament and debris, US House of | :06:46. | :06:50. | |
Representatives in March this year, following which the USA produced a | :06:51. | :06:53. | |
John Kerry an announcement confirming the position of the US | :06:54. | :06:57. | |
government, stating, Daesh is responsible for genocide against | :06:58. | :07:02. | |
groups in areas under its control, including Yazidi poor, Christians | :07:03. | :07:09. | |
and Shia Muslims. They have done this by ideology and by actions. If | :07:10. | :07:13. | |
this is the position of the US government, why is it not the | :07:14. | :07:19. | |
position of our own? In answer to this question, UK Government | :07:20. | :07:23. | |
ministers have repeatedly said, it is long-standing government policy | :07:24. | :07:25. | |
that any judgments on whether genocide has occurred should be a | :07:26. | :07:29. | |
matter for the International judicial system rather than | :07:30. | :07:34. | |
legislators, governments or other non-judicial bodies. In other words, | :07:35. | :07:36. | |
whether this is genocide is a matter whether this is genocide is a matter | :07:37. | :07:40. | |
for the courts, and in this case more specific for the International | :07:41. | :07:43. | |
Criminal Court to decide. And this is the crucial point of this motion, | :07:44. | :07:48. | |
under procedures relating to the ICC, it cannot make that judgment | :07:49. | :07:52. | |
until it is requested to do so and the only way that that can now | :07:53. | :07:57. | |
happen is such a referral is made by the UN Security Council, which the | :07:58. | :08:00. | |
UK Government is a permanent member of stop that is why supporting this | :08:01. | :08:05. | |
motion today is so important. In other words, there was a circular | :08:06. | :08:10. | |
argument here, at present, a stalemate, which this Parliament | :08:11. | :08:14. | |
needs to break. The motion before this House today calls upon us as | :08:15. | :08:17. | |
members of the UK Parliament to make a declaration of genocide and then | :08:18. | :08:22. | |
ask the UK Government to repair this to the UN Security Council, so that | :08:23. | :08:25. | |
the chief prosecutor of the International Criminal Court can | :08:26. | :08:30. | |
take action. That prosecutor has already said as long as a year ago | :08:31. | :08:36. | |
that she stands ready to take action, giving a referral, saying, I | :08:37. | :08:41. | |
would remain profoundly concerned by the situation and want to emphasise | :08:42. | :08:47. | |
our collective duty as a global community to respond to the plight | :08:48. | :08:50. | |
of victims whose rights and dignity have been violated. Isis continues | :08:51. | :08:56. | |
to spread terror on a massive scale in the territories it occupies. The | :08:57. | :08:58. | |
international community pledge that appalling crimes that deeply shocked | :08:59. | :09:02. | |
the conscious of humanity must not go unpunished. As prosecutor of the | :09:03. | :09:09. | |
ICC, I stand ready to the play my part in an independent and impartial | :09:10. | :09:14. | |
manner. Members, can we wait any longer whilst such suffering | :09:15. | :09:18. | |
continues, before doing all we can to Act against it? I am of course | :09:19. | :09:22. | |
are aware that the UK Government is involved in assertively tackling the | :09:23. | :09:27. | |
aggression of Daesh and is poisoned ideology, not least in air strikes, | :09:28. | :09:31. | |
cutting off finance, providing counterterrorism expertise, | :09:32. | :09:35. | |
humanitarian aid and information gathering, and I commend the | :09:36. | :09:38. | |
government for this, but surely there can be no good reason for | :09:39. | :09:42. | |
delaying the additional step of referring this to the UN Security | :09:43. | :09:48. | |
Council, with a view to conferring jurisdiction on the International | :09:49. | :09:51. | |
Criminal Court, to start its own unique procedures to bring the | :09:52. | :09:56. | |
perpetrators to justice. Some may ask what difference this will really | :09:57. | :10:00. | |
make. It will make a real difference. Recognition of genocide | :10:01. | :10:09. | |
on the part of the international community to prevent, punish. It | :10:10. | :10:14. | |
makes it more likely that individuals will be punished. It is | :10:15. | :10:19. | |
often followed why stronger international responses against the | :10:20. | :10:24. | |
atrocities found in the provision of greater help for the survivors with | :10:25. | :10:27. | |
their urgent needs. Much needed in this case. It can facilitate | :10:28. | :10:32. | |
reparations for survivors, recognising the actions of Daesh as | :10:33. | :10:35. | |
genocide should inject further momentum into the international | :10:36. | :10:39. | |
efforts to stop the killings. It would hopefully lead to active | :10:40. | :10:45. | |
safeguarding of those members of religious minorities on the ground, | :10:46. | :10:49. | |
whose lives and very communities currently hang in the balance. It | :10:50. | :10:54. | |
will make new recruits including those from the UK think twice about | :10:55. | :10:57. | |
joining, given the ramifications of being caught. Recognition of | :10:58. | :11:04. | |
genocide is not the only final action of the international | :11:05. | :11:07. | |
community but it is a crucial step, and one that we should make today. I | :11:08. | :11:11. | |
recognise that conferring the jurisdiction on the ICC require | :11:12. | :11:16. | |
support of other Security Council members, but that should not stop | :11:17. | :11:19. | |
our country from initiating this process. I will also add that there | :11:20. | :11:24. | |
is precedent for the Security Council, with a fact-finding | :11:25. | :11:29. | |
committee of experts so that all current evidence can be assessed and | :11:30. | :11:32. | |
the evidence collected, and if the mission is passed today I appeal to | :11:33. | :11:36. | |
the government also to consider this recommendation at the Security | :11:37. | :11:40. | |
Council. Members, I repeat, some may ask, what difference this will | :11:41. | :11:45. | |
really make. I leave the final words to the young girl, to her aid could | :11:46. | :11:52. | |
make all the difference in the world. When I asked her yesterday | :11:53. | :11:54. | |
what her hopes were for the future, she replied," to see justice done | :11:55. | :12:04. | |
for my people." I ask you to support this motion. In the final analysis | :12:05. | :12:08. | |
it is about doing justice and about seeing justice being done. The | :12:09. | :12:14. | |
question is as on the order paper, Stephen Twigg. Can I first of all | :12:15. | :12:20. | |
refer to my relevant entry in the register of members interests, | :12:21. | :12:23. | |
between 2005-10 I had the privilege to work for a body which works to | :12:24. | :12:29. | |
commemorate and prevent genocide. It is a great leisure to follow the | :12:30. | :12:34. | |
honourable lady who is editing this member of this House come of the | :12:35. | :12:37. | |
international developer committee and a campaigner on human rights in | :12:38. | :12:41. | |
particular, the rights of religious and other minorities, and they want | :12:42. | :12:44. | |
to agree first of all with everything she said and to | :12:45. | :12:48. | |
demonstrate the very strong cross- party support there is for what she | :12:49. | :12:53. | |
said in the House today. Can I, like her, thank the backbench business | :12:54. | :12:55. | |
committee for allowing this debate to happen and I hope that she will | :12:56. | :13:02. | |
Act so that we can send a strong message from all parties to this | :13:03. | :13:06. | |
House that we believe that what is happening is a genocide and we | :13:07. | :13:09. | |
believe that the international system has a duty and responsibility | :13:10. | :13:13. | |
to Act in these circumstances. In both Iraq and Syria, ethnic and | :13:14. | :13:18. | |
other minorities have been in severe danger since the emergence of Daesh. | :13:19. | :13:23. | |
We have seen this once diverse region witnessing mass killings, | :13:24. | :13:26. | |
rapes, forced conversions, the destruction of shrines, temples and | :13:27. | :13:31. | |
churches in the region. The honourable lady spoke about the | :13:32. | :13:34. | |
meeting she convened and chaired last night and I listened to the | :13:35. | :13:38. | |
goal, a very powerful speech from a young woman who has been through | :13:39. | :13:43. | |
hell, has been through something that no young women or young person | :13:44. | :13:47. | |
should have to go through and sadly, for many of us, that was not the | :13:48. | :13:50. | |
first time we have heard that estimate. Earlier this year there | :13:51. | :13:53. | |
was a meeting convened by the honourable gentleman, the member for | :13:54. | :13:57. | |
Newark, who chairs the all-party group on the prevention of genocide | :13:58. | :14:01. | |
and the member for Argyll and Bute, well we had from another teenage | :14:02. | :14:08. | |
Yazidi woman, Nadia, who had in captured and imprisoned by Daesh, | :14:09. | :14:11. | |
and she told us that she had been beaten, tortured, raped, but | :14:12. | :14:15. | |
thankfully, she had managed to escape. Her story shocked us in the | :14:16. | :14:19. | |
same way that the story from the goal last night shoppers. Since | :14:20. | :14:24. | |
Nadia's is scared she has spoken here and that the UN, she has spoken | :14:25. | :14:28. | |
with governments, including our own, simply to raise awareness about the | :14:29. | :14:34. | |
plight of the Yazidi people in general and Yazidi women, in | :14:35. | :14:39. | |
particular. Can I join with the comments about the importance of | :14:40. | :14:43. | |
this speech? Of this debate. Surely to goodness, making these poor | :14:44. | :14:50. | |
woman, cruel people, go through this again by having to give testimony, | :14:51. | :14:54. | |
having to persuade organisations that should not need this level of | :14:55. | :14:58. | |
persuasion, they should see what is happening already without having to | :14:59. | :15:01. | |
help people being put through the pain of repeating it again and | :15:02. | :15:04. | |
again. Surely we should not need that. My Honourable Friend is | :15:05. | :15:09. | |
absolutely right. The evidence is there. But human testimony gives an | :15:10. | :15:15. | |
important additional dye mentioned that is, but the additional evidence | :15:16. | :15:23. | |
is well-documented. 3000 Yazidi women are being held against their | :15:24. | :15:27. | |
will by Daesh. The history of this region should lead us to learn some | :15:28. | :15:33. | |
lessons today. 100 years ago, a century ago, the Armenians and | :15:34. | :15:37. | |
Syrians suffered a genocide and I absolutely agree with the point is | :15:38. | :15:43. | |
the honourable lady made of Daesh towards the Yazidi and Christians | :15:44. | :15:46. | |
and other minorities, amounting to genocide. Of course I will give way. | :15:47. | :15:53. | |
I fully intend to support the vote for this motion because it is an | :15:54. | :15:58. | |
important motion input to the House. Two weeks ago I was in Syria and I | :15:59. | :16:04. | |
interviewed roughly 23, 24 people who have suffered from various | :16:05. | :16:06. | |
groups. The only point I would make in this debate, many of them | :16:07. | :16:11. | |
Christians and some of them Alawites, it was not just Daesh | :16:12. | :16:14. | |
doing it, it was IS and their allies. And I think we should | :16:15. | :16:19. | |
remember that when we bring this to the international court. The | :16:20. | :16:25. | |
honourable gentleman makes an extremely important point and I herb | :16:26. | :16:27. | |
that is something that could be elaborated upon during this debate. | :16:28. | :16:32. | |
I will give way, that will be my last time. I hope, the honourable | :16:33. | :16:38. | |
lady does bring this issue to a vote. We should name this for what | :16:39. | :16:46. | |
it is. The suffering so tragically described at the hands of Daesh by | :16:47. | :16:51. | |
the Yazidi people is being experienced at the hands of the | :16:52. | :16:56. | |
Assad regime. Does My Honourable Friend agree that if we only focus | :16:57. | :17:01. | |
on Daesh, we do a great disservice to those who are also experiencing | :17:02. | :17:05. | |
the horror of the Assad regime and their suffering, pick out just as | :17:06. | :17:08. | |
much and did a man as much attention from this woman. I certainly agree | :17:09. | :17:13. | |
with My Honourable Friend that the Assad regime has unleashed appalling | :17:14. | :17:21. | |
terra on its people and it is absolutely right that we have that | :17:22. | :17:25. | |
focus during debates in this House before including the debate on the | :17:26. | :17:30. | |
military intervention with regard to Syria. I've visited refugees in | :17:31. | :17:34. | |
Jordan and heard first-hand from them the horror of what they had | :17:35. | :17:38. | |
experienced, usually at the hands of the Syrian regime, sometimes at the | :17:39. | :17:43. | |
hands of IS and their allies, but the motion today is a focused motion | :17:44. | :17:47. | |
that we can all support and unite around. It is not in any way detract | :17:48. | :17:51. | |
from the importance of continuing to raise those issues about the Assad | :17:52. | :17:57. | |
regime and it's abuses. On the question of this being a genocide, | :17:58. | :18:03. | |
let us be clear that Daesh given the Yazidi people choice of forced | :18:04. | :18:07. | |
conversion, death or exiled. I think that does amount to destruction of | :18:08. | :18:11. | |
the foundations of the life of a group of people. The United Nations | :18:12. | :18:14. | |
International Criminal Tribunal have recognised both sexual violence and | :18:15. | :18:20. | |
slavery, both of which as we know are prevalent in the actions of | :18:21. | :18:26. | |
Daesh towards the Yazidis as part of a genocidal process. I want is a | :18:27. | :18:32. | |
little bit about specific issue, about the importance of | :18:33. | :18:36. | |
documentation. An estimated 25 mass graves have been discovered in | :18:37. | :18:39. | |
Sinjar in northern Iraq, containing the mortal remains of Yazidi people | :18:40. | :18:45. | |
murdered by Daesh in August, 2014. These graves are not being properly | :18:46. | :18:49. | |
protected. They are being disturbed I have a righty or people including, | :18:50. | :18:55. | |
perfectly understandably, relatives of the victims, local people, | :18:56. | :18:59. | |
sometimes journalists, but there's a risk that that is compromising | :19:00. | :19:03. | |
evidence and therefore ability to identify the victims of Daesh. | :19:04. | :19:07. | |
Yazidi campaign groups have called for the protection of the grave and | :19:08. | :19:11. | |
analysis of the mortal remains that they contain, and an international | :19:12. | :19:14. | |
response is needed on this matter that is not yet materialised. The US | :19:15. | :19:20. | |
Holocaust Museum has recognised a genocide designation, partly in | :19:21. | :19:23. | |
order to raise public awareness, because as they put it, historical | :19:24. | :19:30. | |
memory is a tool presents on. The International commission on missing | :19:31. | :19:32. | |
persons is the leading organisation dedicated to addressing the tracing | :19:33. | :19:36. | |
of people missing in the aftermath of armed conflict. The Iraqi | :19:37. | :19:42. | |
government in the aftermath of the war in Iraq set up the Human Rights | :19:43. | :19:46. | |
Ministry with a remit to consider policy towards mass graves but | :19:47. | :19:50. | |
unfortunately that ministry has been dissolved. It seems to me clear that | :19:51. | :19:55. | |
the international commission on missing persons is the organisation | :19:56. | :19:59. | |
that should be responding to the challenge in Sinjar, both to | :20:00. | :20:01. | |
identify the victims and examine the mass graves in order to preserve | :20:02. | :20:07. | |
evidence. I would like to ask the Minister, when he responds to this | :20:08. | :20:13. | |
debate today to address this issue. The UK has a good track record of | :20:14. | :20:17. | |
working with this body, for example in Bosnia, and will they give an | :20:18. | :20:20. | |
undertaking today to work with them and the Iraqi government to help | :20:21. | :20:24. | |
protect these mass graves, because it is so important, that these | :20:25. | :20:31. | |
crimes are properly documented, in particular if this motion succeeds, | :20:32. | :20:33. | |
and there is a reference to the United Nations with regard to | :20:34. | :20:37. | |
genocide, but also for the families of the victims, so that they can | :20:38. | :20:40. | |
identify the victims as accurately as possible. As part of that. But I | :20:41. | :20:50. | |
am delighted to give way. As one who collected evidence of Iraqi war | :20:51. | :20:57. | |
crimes for an organisation called indict, many thousands still remain | :20:58. | :21:05. | |
unexcavated in mass graves in Iraq, because of security threats. It is | :21:06. | :21:11. | |
important to protect the mass graves because the evidence is contained | :21:12. | :21:19. | |
then. -- therein. I pay tribute to her decades of work on this, is | :21:20. | :21:23. | |
absolutely crucial and important issue. In conclusion, as part of | :21:24. | :21:27. | |
Allah Judy to recognise the genocide, we should prioritise | :21:28. | :21:31. | |
protecting the evidence which will help bring those guilty of genocide | :21:32. | :21:36. | |
to justice and to dignify the victims of these awful, awful | :21:37. | :21:41. | |
crimes. I support this motion. I believe the honourable lady has made | :21:42. | :21:44. | |
a very powerful case for why this House should urge the government to | :21:45. | :21:48. | |
refer this matter to the United Nations. I understand the | :21:49. | :21:53. | |
government's position. I raised it with the Prime Minister a few weeks | :21:54. | :21:57. | |
ago, that the way that we recognise genocide is different to the way | :21:58. | :21:59. | |
that the Americans do, and the honourable lady has come up with an | :22:00. | :22:04. | |
intelligent and ingenious way of ensuring that we can have a positive | :22:05. | :22:08. | |
response from the government today, but also an opportunity for this as | :22:09. | :22:12. | |
a Parliament on a cross-party basis to send out a very powerful message. | :22:13. | :22:17. | |
And the member for Newcastle North reminded us that, every year in | :22:18. | :22:19. | |
January, we commemorate the Nazi or the cost, we have Holocaust Memorial | :22:20. | :22:25. | |
Day, because the message after the Holocaust at the end of the Second | :22:26. | :22:32. | |
World War was, "Never again". Now, we know, tragically, since the end | :22:33. | :22:37. | |
of the Second World War, we've had Cambodia, we have had grander, and | :22:38. | :22:42. | |
now we have what is happening with Daesh's actions against the Yazidi | :22:43. | :22:46. | |
people and others. We have an opportunity to heed that warning | :22:47. | :22:51. | |
from the Holocaust, never again, to send a message to our government but | :22:52. | :22:56. | |
also to Daesh and to the wider international community. We | :22:57. | :22:59. | |
recognise this as genocide and we want action taken against the | :23:00. | :23:00. | |
perpetrators of that genocide. Derrick Thomas. Thank you, Madam | :23:01. | :23:11. | |
Deputy Speaker. I support the motion that this house believes Yazidis are | :23:12. | :23:18. | |
suffering genocide at the hands of Daesh. I would like to pay | :23:19. | :23:22. | |
particular tribute to my honourable friend for securing this backbench | :23:23. | :23:28. | |
debate. It is profoundly disturbing that people in Iraq and Syria are | :23:29. | :23:33. | |
being attacked for the long into different religious and ethnic | :23:34. | :23:38. | |
groups. Daesh has committed torture, mass murder, sexual abuse, | :23:39. | :23:41. | |
systematic rape and sexual enslavement of women and girls. | :23:42. | :23:47. | |
Their official propaganda videos document its specific intent to | :23:48. | :23:53. | |
destroy Christian and Yazidi groups in Syria and Iraq. I attended the | :23:54. | :23:58. | |
meeting yesterday evening and I heard along with the many things | :23:59. | :24:02. | |
shared, I heard of former public buildings being used to imprison | :24:03. | :24:06. | |
girls as young as nine and women for systematic rape and just to satisfy | :24:07. | :24:15. | |
their sexual lust... I'm grateful, would he agree that some of the | :24:16. | :24:22. | |
women and girls abducted and who escaped face stigma and | :24:23. | :24:25. | |
discrimination when they return and actually these women and girls are | :24:26. | :24:28. | |
victims so they should be given all the support and help they deserve | :24:29. | :24:34. | |
and need to move on in life and to bring the perpetrators to justice as | :24:35. | :24:38. | |
well? I welcome the intervention. I was left after that evening meeting | :24:39. | :24:43. | |
with that very thought. How do these girls and women rebuild their lives | :24:44. | :24:46. | |
and somehow find a place in society where they can live full and | :24:47. | :24:52. | |
enriched lives? The word that is needed to be done to support them is | :24:53. | :24:56. | |
quite considerable. The UK has a rich tradition of helping and | :24:57. | :25:00. | |
advocating on the half of the world Palace most vulnerable people. | :25:01. | :25:04. | |
Whenever a crisis or disaster occurs, the UK Government and | :25:05. | :25:08. | |
British people are quick to respond and lead the charge providing | :25:09. | :25:12. | |
humanitarian aid and financial assistance quickly. Why is it, then, | :25:13. | :25:16. | |
that despite being one of the five permanent members of the UN Security | :25:17. | :25:19. | |
Council and having the responsibility of a unique role in | :25:20. | :25:22. | |
the international community a week are being slow and appear reluctant | :25:23. | :25:27. | |
to trigger legal mechanisms that exist within the international | :25:28. | :25:32. | |
judicial system. The legal designation of genocide against | :25:33. | :25:39. | |
Daesh relies firstly an action from the UN Security Council and | :25:40. | :25:43. | |
therefore requires the UK Government to take some leadership and an | :25:44. | :25:47. | |
honest position in this situation. I have heard on a number of occasions | :25:48. | :25:50. | |
that this Government sees the UK has a world leader on human rights. This | :25:51. | :25:56. | |
status risks being undermined by the apparent lack of willingness to | :25:57. | :26:00. | |
recognise what is going on in Iraq and Syria as genocide and creating | :26:01. | :26:05. | |
the environment where these acts can be prevented and the perpetrators | :26:06. | :26:09. | |
punished. Already the US as we have heard Secretary of State John Kerry, | :26:10. | :26:14. | |
the US House of Representatives and the European Parliament and the | :26:15. | :26:17. | |
Parliamentary assembly of the Council of Europe have all described | :26:18. | :26:22. | |
Isis atrocities as genocide. It is time the UK joins these countries to | :26:23. | :26:27. | |
politically recognise these are atrocities as such. Thank you | :26:28. | :26:48. | |
to the member. The member makes very good points and it is good to hear | :26:49. | :26:54. | |
them. Does he agree with me that for crimes like these, the principle of | :26:55. | :26:56. | |
universal jurisdiction should apply for crimes that are so heinous | :26:57. | :26:58. | |
against humanity that all states should take responsibility? I accept | :26:59. | :27:00. | |
that and my next point, I supported military action in Syria because our | :27:01. | :27:03. | |
Armed Forces are able to restrict the capability of Daesh and the evil | :27:04. | :27:10. | |
they are spouse. My speech was also about achieving a political solution | :27:11. | :27:14. | |
in this area of the Middle East. Surely recognising the behaviour of | :27:15. | :27:17. | |
Daesh against minority groups that is well documented and not disputed, | :27:18. | :27:23. | |
as genocide, is an important part of this political solution. One of the | :27:24. | :27:29. | |
things in addition to what the honourable gentleman just said over | :27:30. | :27:34. | |
there, in terms of reconstruction, part of that reconstruction should | :27:35. | :27:38. | |
be the rehabilitation of these women and some form of compensation for | :27:39. | :27:41. | |
them and their families. As the honourable gentleman said earlier, | :27:42. | :27:46. | |
the stigma in some of those communities is therefore a lifetime | :27:47. | :27:48. | |
and you won't get rid of it. It's very important, particularly in | :27:49. | :27:55. | |
North Korea and other parts of the world as well. That intervention, | :27:56. | :28:01. | |
the reality is and a great challenge facing the international community | :28:02. | :28:06. | |
is, how do we have secured peace in Syria and Iraq, how do we help | :28:07. | :28:12. | |
people rebuild their own country? I would suggest there will be many | :28:13. | :28:15. | |
people who will never be able to move back, simply because of the | :28:16. | :28:18. | |
memories and the horrors that they have. As an international community, | :28:19. | :28:24. | |
we need to do all we can to support these people wherever they may end | :28:25. | :28:29. | |
up building their lives. The British people are horrified by what they | :28:30. | :28:32. | |
hear and see regarding the treatment of these minority groups in Syria | :28:33. | :28:37. | |
and Iraq. They rightfully expect that this house use whatever tools | :28:38. | :28:41. | |
are available to us to work to bring this to an end and achieve peace in | :28:42. | :28:45. | |
this troubled part of the world. Madam Deputy Speaker, a tool | :28:46. | :28:49. | |
available to us today is to recognise these evil acts as | :28:50. | :28:55. | |
genocide and to use our position as a permanent member of the UN | :28:56. | :29:00. | |
Security Council so that this can be investigated by the European Court. | :29:01. | :29:07. | |
People are being brutalised, raped and murdered. We have a moral | :29:08. | :29:11. | |
responsibility to seek justice for these people. Thank you, Madam | :29:12. | :29:17. | |
Deputy Speaker. May I join others in congratulating the honourable member | :29:18. | :29:20. | |
for securing this debate, for her individual will work in this area | :29:21. | :29:24. | |
and for the way she opened the debate today. I apologise that I | :29:25. | :29:29. | |
missed the first few minutes of the speech but I am also grateful to her | :29:30. | :29:34. | |
for organising the session yesterday that every Speaker has today | :29:35. | :29:38. | |
referred to so far with its harrowing testimony of the horrors | :29:39. | :29:45. | |
being inflicted by Daesh in Iraq and Syria on people whose religious | :29:46. | :29:47. | |
outlook and faith is different to their heirs. I think it is very | :29:48. | :29:53. | |
difficult, Madam Deputy Speaker, to deny that what is going on meets the | :29:54. | :29:58. | |
test for genocide. Of course the bar is set high and it is right that it | :29:59. | :30:04. | |
should be but large numbers of Yazidis and Christians and Shia | :30:05. | :30:06. | |
Muslims have been killed. I honourable friend for West Derby was | :30:07. | :30:14. | |
right to point out that it does meet the test set out in the 1948 | :30:15. | :30:18. | |
genocide convention that this is with intent to destroy in whole or | :30:19. | :30:24. | |
in part a national ethnic, racial or religious group. It is clear that | :30:25. | :30:29. | |
that is what Daesh is seeking to do. Pope Francis I think was right to | :30:30. | :30:33. | |
speak last year of the killing of Christians in the Middle East as | :30:34. | :30:39. | |
genocide. We have heard the US Secretary of State and the US | :30:40. | :30:43. | |
Congress have both now last month recognised what is happening as | :30:44. | :30:46. | |
genocide and I believe that we should do so as well. We understand | :30:47. | :30:58. | |
that the Government is likely to argue that it is not for parliament | :30:59. | :31:02. | |
but the judiciary to make the determination, but what is not clear | :31:03. | :31:05. | |
to me and perhaps the Minister can explain this to us is what is the | :31:06. | :31:08. | |
trigger for judicial action that could lead to the determination that | :31:09. | :31:14. | |
I think all of us share that genocide is under way and I very | :31:15. | :31:17. | |
much hope the house will agree with this motion, so that the Government | :31:18. | :31:24. | |
can make the recommendation that the honourable member is arguing for. My | :31:25. | :31:28. | |
honourable friend, that is a very interesting question. If we look at | :31:29. | :31:35. | |
the Nuremberg court, it was the allies that set those courts up, so | :31:36. | :31:38. | |
the Government can in actual fact get together and do something about | :31:39. | :31:42. | |
that. This is absolutely right. It isn't clear to me, if the Government | :31:43. | :31:47. | |
doesn't do it, how it can happen in the UK. We heard from the young | :31:48. | :31:52. | |
woman last night who has been referred to about the way that she | :31:53. | :31:55. | |
saw her father and her brothers being killed simply for being | :31:56. | :32:03. | |
Yazidis, herself raped and enslaved. She was very clear in her evidence | :32:04. | :32:08. | |
that what was going on was genocide of Yazidis and also of Christians. | :32:09. | :32:12. | |
She made that point clearly, Christians were included in this | :32:13. | :32:16. | |
genocide as well. It's certainly the case that Shia Muslims have also | :32:17. | :32:22. | |
been that case -- space victims of genocide, as US Secretary of State | :32:23. | :32:25. | |
John Kerry has pointed out. Yes, I will. I thank the honourable | :32:26. | :32:31. | |
gentleman in giving way. When he says Shia Muslims have also been | :32:32. | :32:37. | |
killed by Daesh, does he also agree that Daesh itself has no religion, | :32:38. | :32:40. | |
it kills Muslims as well who stand in its way of its warped ideology. | :32:41. | :32:47. | |
Whatever your face, Muslim or non-Moslem, if you stand in their | :32:48. | :32:50. | |
way they will kill you. I think the honourable gentleman is right but I | :32:51. | :32:53. | |
think it's clear from what has happened that Shia Muslims have been | :32:54. | :33:00. | |
singled out. For example, 600 in a prison just north of most all they | :33:01. | :33:05. | |
were picked out from the rest of the inmates because they were Shia | :33:06. | :33:09. | |
Muslims and they were simply machine-gunned one by one. -- just | :33:10. | :33:14. | |
north of Mosul. I hope we will make a clear statement today that this is | :33:15. | :33:18. | |
genocide, both to express solidarity with Yazidis, Christians and Shia | :33:19. | :33:25. | |
Muslims who are the victims of the horrifying brutality under way but | :33:26. | :33:30. | |
also to make clear our intention is that those responsible must in due | :33:31. | :33:34. | |
course face prosecution and they're just punishment for what they have | :33:35. | :33:37. | |
done. I would like Madam Deputy Speaker to make some observations on | :33:38. | :33:43. | |
how we deal with the commitment that we all espouse in this house to | :33:44. | :33:47. | |
religious freedom. I recognise and pay tribute to the work of past and | :33:48. | :33:53. | |
current ministers in this area but I think we should be doing more. | :33:54. | :33:57. | |
Others are doing more and I think we should as well. I want to commend to | :33:58. | :34:03. | |
the Minister and idea that was actually in the Labour Party | :34:04. | :34:08. | |
election manifesto for the general election last year, that the | :34:09. | :34:11. | |
Government should appoint a global envoy for religious freedom, a | :34:12. | :34:17. | |
person who it is suggested would have reported directly to the Prime | :34:18. | :34:24. | |
Minister, and also establish a multi-faith advisory Council on | :34:25. | :34:26. | |
religious freedom within the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. I think | :34:27. | :34:30. | |
that would be an important way for us to acknowledge and publicly | :34:31. | :34:36. | |
commit to the importance of British influence being wielded on this | :34:37. | :34:42. | |
front in the work of ministers and the Foreign Office around the world. | :34:43. | :34:49. | |
The Canadian Government I think deserves credit for establishing its | :34:50. | :34:53. | |
office of religious freedom. I think it's had a positive impact. I'm very | :34:54. | :34:57. | |
sorry to hear that it's now being wound down. But the US commission on | :34:58. | :35:02. | |
International religious Freedom was established a long time ago, in | :35:03. | :35:08. | |
1998. That, I think, is an attractive model, with commissioners | :35:09. | :35:11. | |
appointed by the President and by the leadership of both political | :35:12. | :35:14. | |
parties in the Senate and the House of Representatives and that | :35:15. | :35:19. | |
commission called last December for the US Government to designate | :35:20. | :35:28. | |
Christian, Yazidi and other communities of Iraq and Syria as | :35:29. | :35:31. | |
victims of genocide by Isil. Last month, as we have heard, it welcomed | :35:32. | :35:41. | |
the state-- the State Department's intervention. The honourable | :35:42. | :35:46. | |
gentleman is making a very good case and iron Tiley support this motion. | :35:47. | :35:51. | |
It is clear that Isis are using rape as a strategic ribbon of war are not | :35:52. | :35:56. | |
only of ethnic cleansing but an unthinkable form of conversion. One | :35:57. | :36:08. | |
victim stated recalling hearing Isis saying that one woman will become a | :36:09. | :36:12. | |
fighter is ten Isis fighters rape her. Will the honourable gentleman | :36:13. | :36:19. | |
help in recommending gathering evidence so that these crimes do not | :36:20. | :36:24. | |
go unpunished? I gladly support the call the honourable member has made. | :36:25. | :36:30. | |
The legislation in the US which created that commission also | :36:31. | :36:34. | |
mandated the State Department to prepare an annual report on | :36:35. | :36:39. | |
International religious Freedom. The last one was published just a year | :36:40. | :36:43. | |
ago and I imagine we are about to see the next one in the next two or | :36:44. | :36:56. | |
three weeks. That means that the US -- US Government have a consistent | :36:57. | :37:05. | |
effort to wield religious freedom around the world. We do it in a much | :37:06. | :37:08. | |
more ad hoc way and I think we should do it in a much more | :37:09. | :37:11. | |
consistent way as the US example has demonstrated. Madam Deputy Speaker, | :37:12. | :37:18. | |
I hope the house will be united to support the call that the honourable | :37:19. | :37:22. | |
member made in opening this debate that what is happening to | :37:23. | :37:27. | |
Christians, Yazidis, Shia Muslims in Iraq and Syria is genocide. I hope | :37:28. | :37:34. | |
we will build on that to pick up a consistent commitment to religious | :37:35. | :37:35. | |
freedom around the world. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I | :37:36. | :37:45. | |
pay tribute to my honourable friend, the member for Congleton for her | :37:46. | :37:49. | |
great courage and compassion and also for such a strong lead in this | :37:50. | :37:53. | |
important debate. I also rise to support the motion before the house | :37:54. | :37:59. | |
today for the Government to recognise the appalling acts by | :38:00. | :38:04. | |
Daesh against Yazidis and others as genocide. That being and it bears | :38:05. | :38:08. | |
repetition, acts committed with intent to destroy a whole or in part | :38:09. | :38:12. | |
a national ethnic, racial or religious group. Have we seen | :38:13. | :38:18. | |
evidence of such intent? Yes. Indisputably. In the kidnapping of | :38:19. | :38:24. | |
women and girls tortured and raped, sexual enslavement. Headings, | :38:25. | :38:28. | |
crucifixions and mass graves, and in the assassination of church leaders, | :38:29. | :38:32. | |
desecration and destruction of churches and symmetries of | :38:33. | :38:35. | |
artefacts, and forced convergence and the driving people from their | :38:36. | :38:36. | |
lands. We should remember the plight of the | :38:37. | :38:50. | |
14,000 Yazidi people trapped on the mountainside and the airdrops made | :38:51. | :38:57. | |
to save them from certain death. I heard this to me from a brave, | :38:58. | :39:01. | |
scarred young woman who had escaped her captors yesterday. Testimony | :39:02. | :39:05. | |
comes not just from victims but by the self automation of perpetrators | :39:06. | :39:13. | |
in thought, word and deed. -- self proclamation. How do they lead? They | :39:14. | :39:22. | |
claim credit. -- how do they lead. This government is committed to | :39:23. | :39:25. | |
upholding project supporting human rights the world over and then | :39:26. | :39:30. | |
eating millions in funding to this end. Freedom of religion is a | :39:31. | :39:35. | |
fundamental human right. I understand that what stands between | :39:36. | :39:40. | |
us and formally calling atrocities committed by Daesh's genocide is | :39:41. | :39:44. | |
legal standing. The crime genocide has a legal definition that can only | :39:45. | :39:49. | |
be determined by the International Criminal Court, so what can we do? | :39:50. | :39:54. | |
We can call for evidence to be formally collected. We can call this | :39:55. | :40:02. | |
in by referring it to the UN, to give jurisdiction to the | :40:03. | :40:06. | |
International Criminal Court. Daesh is indiscriminate in those it hurts. | :40:07. | :40:14. | |
It reserves particular cruelty for Yazidi, Christian and other minority | :40:15. | :40:18. | |
ethnic groups. How can we support these people in this moment? We can | :40:19. | :40:23. | |
call their suffering for what it is, genocide. Thank you very much | :40:24. | :40:31. | |
indeed, Madam Deputy Speaker. I was particularly struck by the | :40:32. | :40:36. | |
contribution made by the member for East Ham, and if we come to a point | :40:37. | :40:40. | |
in global envoy may I suggest one name early on in that. He held a | :40:41. | :40:47. | |
similar position under Tony Blair and I can think of no one better | :40:48. | :40:51. | |
qualified. There has been much praise already given to the | :40:52. | :40:55. | |
honourable lady, the member for Congleton, but I think that many of | :40:56. | :41:00. | |
us should place on record that in a short time that the honourable lady | :41:01. | :41:04. | |
has been in this House, she has one for herself a reputation for great | :41:05. | :41:07. | |
courage, the termination, as a defender of the week, of the poor, | :41:08. | :41:13. | |
and of the defenceless. She has earned a great reputation and if I | :41:14. | :41:19. | |
may say, ably followed by My Honourable Friend, the member for | :41:20. | :41:22. | |
Strangford, and has done an enormous amount of good with this and it is | :41:23. | :41:26. | |
an honour to be speaking in a debate instigated by the honourable lady. | :41:27. | :41:32. | |
I'm glad to see two of the more humane government ministers on the | :41:33. | :41:35. | |
Treasury bench and I am confident that we will respond in a way that | :41:36. | :41:39. | |
reflects the motion that is felt all the way around this Chamber today. | :41:40. | :41:45. | |
When the honourable member for Congleton listed some of the litany | :41:46. | :41:48. | |
of horrors that we heard last night and have heard on so many occasions, | :41:49. | :41:54. | |
for me, the one chilling, almost unbelievably brutal incident that | :41:55. | :41:58. | |
was recounted to me was when a group of captured young men were lined up | :41:59. | :42:02. | |
and made to strip to the waste and then hold their arms up. Those who | :42:03. | :42:08. | |
had no hair under their arms were considered young enough to be taken | :42:09. | :42:13. | |
away and indoctrinated and turned into bombers and Jihadist 's. Those | :42:14. | :42:16. | |
who showed signs of unity and maturity were shot. The fact that | :42:17. | :42:22. | |
anyone in this day and age can take a decision, and action of such utter | :42:23. | :42:27. | |
paternity is almost beyond belief. The fact that they can do it in the | :42:28. | :42:34. | |
name of religion, a religion whose name means "Peace", is unforgivable | :42:35. | :42:38. | |
-- unforgivable and inexcusable. If you think that anyone is out there | :42:39. | :42:43. | |
who thinks that this ghastly nihilist death cult can in any way | :42:44. | :42:49. | |
trial, what a pleasure it is to see the arch in Palm Iraq erected in | :42:50. | :42:53. | |
Trafalgar Square, critical demonstration of our admit that they | :42:54. | :42:58. | |
can crush, destroy, kill, rape and maim, but they will never, ever win. | :42:59. | :43:04. | |
They will not be allowed to win because, if they do, then darkness | :43:05. | :43:08. | |
descends on the earth, then we are in a terrifying place. It is | :43:09. | :43:11. | |
incredibly important to recognise the fact that, although we talked | :43:12. | :43:15. | |
about in this motion, which is extremely well crafted, I don't want | :43:16. | :43:20. | |
to keep over much praise on the honourable lady for Congleton, but | :43:21. | :43:25. | |
this is beautifully phrased and to use this definition is incredibly | :43:26. | :43:29. | |
important. And quite rightly, we concentrate on the horrific | :43:30. | :43:37. | |
circumstances of the Yazidis, but don't forget probably more Muslims | :43:38. | :43:41. | |
have been killed by Daesh than any other religious or ethnic group. | :43:42. | :43:47. | |
These are not only defend or protect their coreligionists. They slaughter | :43:48. | :43:56. | |
indiscriminately. I just wanted to slightly and gently take My | :43:57. | :44:00. | |
Honourable Friend to task in terms of indiscriminately. Yes, in terms | :44:01. | :44:03. | |
of certain groups, they are an discriminate leaky old, but when it | :44:04. | :44:09. | |
comes to Christians and Yazidis, they are absolutely discriminating, | :44:10. | :44:14. | |
because they want to exterminate them and eradicate them from that | :44:15. | :44:17. | |
part of a world or indeed any part of the world. The honourable | :44:18. | :44:21. | |
gentleman quite correctly takes me to task. What I meant was, of course | :44:22. | :44:27. | |
they target specifically, and there is a least one member present who | :44:28. | :44:32. | |
has been in northern Iraq with me and who has broken bread with | :44:33. | :44:36. | |
members of the a Syrian Christian community and has seen the lives | :44:37. | :44:41. | |
they lead, which were always difficult, but actually they were | :44:42. | :44:44. | |
able to live and practice their faith in something approaching | :44:45. | :44:48. | |
peace, even under the dark days of Saddam Hussein. To see those people | :44:49. | :44:53. | |
being hunted down and discriminated against, specifically being | :44:54. | :44:56. | |
slaughtered on the grounds of their faith, on the one hand is so utterly | :44:57. | :44:59. | |
chilling and terrifying, but on the other and, isn't it extraordinary | :45:00. | :45:05. | |
how many of them refuse to recant, refuse to recruit? To actually say, | :45:06. | :45:10. | |
this is our faith. And in some cases to die for that day. That is | :45:11. | :45:15. | |
extraordinary. That is absolute testimony to the courage that still | :45:16. | :45:19. | |
exists. In terms of a specific genocide, yes, the Jewish people, | :45:20. | :45:25. | |
huge Jewish community that was in Iraq, a community that has given so | :45:26. | :45:29. | |
much to this country, that is being specifically hunted down and | :45:30. | :45:32. | |
destroyed. Let's not forget there are whole groups of people who | :45:33. | :45:37. | |
suffer. And we come down to the word, genocide. I have had so many | :45:38. | :45:43. | |
debates on the floor of this House about the Armenian genocide, I call | :45:44. | :45:47. | |
it genocide. I appreciate this House chooses not to call the massacre of | :45:48. | :45:56. | |
almost 2 million Armenian people in 1915 genocide because the word | :45:57. | :45:59. | |
genocide was not formal gated then, but we know that it was genocide. We | :46:00. | :46:05. | |
know that, to deny a group of people who have suffered in that way is a | :46:06. | :46:08. | |
double dissemination, because it is a double death in many ways. Let us | :46:09. | :46:13. | |
call this for what it is. This is genocide. And this must not be | :46:14. | :46:19. | |
allowed to triumph and to win, so what can we do in this House? Yes, | :46:20. | :46:23. | |
of course, we must make reference to the UN, but what I would like, is to | :46:24. | :46:28. | |
actually speak beyond this House for a moment. We are not in a | :46:29. | :46:32. | |
hermetically sealed bubble here, we are the sounding board of the | :46:33. | :46:36. | |
nation. There are people watching and listening to us, and it is | :46:37. | :46:40. | |
possible that somewhere in the dark laces of our cities and towns, there | :46:41. | :46:44. | |
are people who are tempted by this death cult. There are people who see | :46:45. | :46:50. | |
maybe it'll excuse their own inadequacies and failures, this idea | :46:51. | :46:56. | |
that they can go and die gloriously for this twisted philosophy. I would | :46:57. | :47:02. | |
like to speak outside this Chamber. Is anyone watching who thinks that | :47:03. | :47:06. | |
the great religion of Islam is calling you to go and slaughter | :47:07. | :47:13. | |
children, unborn babies, to rape, loot and murder in this way, then | :47:14. | :47:18. | |
read the holy Koran, read the holy book. You will not find those words | :47:19. | :47:26. | |
in that book. If there's anyone out there huddled away in dark places | :47:27. | :47:29. | |
who feels tempted for a moment to leave this country, this city, our | :47:30. | :47:37. | |
community, to go there, too die but to kill before you die, please, | :47:38. | :47:41. | |
please think. You have the gift of life at the present time. Hold that | :47:42. | :47:46. | |
gift of life. It is too precious to throw away. As is the life of | :47:47. | :47:52. | |
others. Their lives matter just as much. And this community, the | :47:53. | :48:00. | |
Christian community, the Muslim community, the Yazidis, the Jews, | :48:01. | :48:05. | |
why on earth are they being persecuted in this way? What have | :48:06. | :48:09. | |
they done to bring this Armageddon down upon their heads? They have not | :48:10. | :48:15. | |
threatened in any way forced conversions against people who | :48:16. | :48:18. | |
subscribe to the Isis- Daesh philosophy. This is a war of | :48:19. | :48:25. | |
aggression. This is a war that has to be described by the one word, the | :48:26. | :48:31. | |
only word that describes it today. That word is genocide. This House | :48:32. | :48:37. | |
must speak, not just to fellow legislators, not just to the UN but | :48:38. | :48:41. | |
to all those people out there who are thinking about this issue and | :48:42. | :48:46. | |
might even be remotely tempted. You are considering moving into an area | :48:47. | :48:50. | |
so dark and so deep and so desperate that only the worst and most | :48:51. | :48:54. | |
serious, the word that describes the ultimate crime, only that one single | :48:55. | :49:00. | |
word accurately describes the full horror of what is happening here to | :49:01. | :49:05. | |
these communities in Syria and in Iraq. Madam Deputy Speaker, we all | :49:06. | :49:10. | |
know what that word is. Let us be united here, in this House, and | :49:11. | :49:16. | |
hopefully outside as well, and say, what is happening is genocide, and | :49:17. | :49:23. | |
has to be recognised as such. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I | :49:24. | :49:28. | |
appreciate the contributions made in this debate, specially from the | :49:29. | :49:35. | |
honourable gentleman for Ealing North, a very powerful case having | :49:36. | :49:39. | |
been made. I would like to thank the backbench business committee for | :49:40. | :49:43. | |
securing this debate and My Honourable Friend the member for | :49:44. | :49:46. | |
Congleton. This recognition that what we are seeing in parts of Syria | :49:47. | :49:52. | |
and Iraq, is that it is the genocide of the Yazidis, Christians and other | :49:53. | :49:57. | |
minorities. As we debate the nature of what is going on in Iraq and | :49:58. | :50:01. | |
Syria, we must understand the nature of the organisation perpetrating | :50:02. | :50:05. | |
these crimes. The followers, the members of Daesh have a particular | :50:06. | :50:10. | |
interpretation of Islam which they use to attack those who do not | :50:11. | :50:14. | |
subscribe to the same religion or interpretation of their religion. | :50:15. | :50:17. | |
This means that in addition to the targeted executions of Yazidis, | :50:18. | :50:24. | |
Christians, Shia Muslims are killed and persecuted, as are many Sunni | :50:25. | :50:31. | |
Muslims. When the Sinjar disaster happened, 200,000 Yazidis were | :50:32. | :50:34. | |
driven from their homes. 40,000 of them were trapped on Mount Sinjar, | :50:35. | :50:40. | |
where they faced either slaughter by Daesh if they came down, or | :50:41. | :50:44. | |
dehydration and death if they remained. Christians in Syria, the | :50:45. | :50:53. | |
number dropped from 2 million to 1 million and from 1.4 million to | :50:54. | :51:00. | |
under 260,000 in Iraq. Daesh is seeking to create a caliphate of | :51:01. | :51:04. | |
those who subscribe.... Able give way. -- I will give way. I would | :51:05. | :51:12. | |
like to pay tribute to the honourable lady, the member for | :51:13. | :51:17. | |
Congleton. The figures he has cited are examples of why Christianity is | :51:18. | :51:23. | |
dying in its cradle, and why so many constituents who are Christians have | :51:24. | :51:28. | |
contacted us about this genocide. This is where many people in Britain | :51:29. | :51:35. | |
recognise this to be a genocide. I appreciate many, if not all members | :51:36. | :51:40. | |
in This Place at the moment, agree with those of the British people. | :51:41. | :51:47. | |
The question of what they would deem as the caliphate, and persecution of | :51:48. | :51:54. | |
those who do not fit into that vision. We have seen systematic | :51:55. | :51:59. | |
torture, enslavement, rape and murder of groups solely due to their | :52:00. | :52:06. | |
religious identity. The desire to establish their caliphate in the | :52:07. | :52:10. | |
territory they hold, they are intending to draw other Muslims from | :52:11. | :52:14. | |
across the region, Europe and beyond. It is clear that they are an | :52:15. | :52:21. | |
expansionist organisation that has far greater territorial ambitions | :52:22. | :52:25. | |
than to hold onto land they currently have, so given the | :52:26. | :52:31. | |
opportunity to take more land and subject more people to this | :52:32. | :52:34. | |
systematic persecution and killing that we have become familiar with. I | :52:35. | :52:42. | |
thank the honourable gentleman for giving way. He is making a very | :52:43. | :52:45. | |
powerful speech. Would he agree that the issue there is some of the | :52:46. | :52:50. | |
hallmarks of that faced 75 years ago and that Daesh is like National | :52:51. | :52:55. | |
Socialism. It's not just the movement try to take over one | :52:56. | :52:59. | |
country but to make one race and belief dominant and in doing so, | :53:00. | :53:01. | |
eliminate its opponents. My honourable friend is right to say | :53:02. | :53:12. | |
that in this ideological way people are getting caught up and they are | :53:13. | :53:19. | |
being divorced from their humanity, the humanity they would have been | :53:20. | :53:22. | |
raised with them is the amount -- see around them. More must be done | :53:23. | :53:26. | |
to ensure that we tackle that extremism online and from other | :53:27. | :53:34. | |
sources. The continued existence of Isil, Surrey, the continued | :53:35. | :53:42. | |
existence of Daesh, will continue to be a trauma if this caliphate does | :53:43. | :53:50. | |
take hold and continued to be... You just have to look at Libya where | :53:51. | :53:57. | |
Daesh kidnapped and beheaded 21 Coptic Christians, the anniversary | :53:58. | :54:02. | |
of which was recently observed. Genocide is fundamentally about the | :54:03. | :54:08. | |
committing of acts with intent to destroy, in part or in whole, a | :54:09. | :54:12. | |
national, ethnic, racial or religious group. While the | :54:13. | :54:19. | |
classification of genocide is a a manner of legal rather than | :54:20. | :54:27. | |
political interpretation, it is not merely a debate about semantics. | :54:28. | :54:30. | |
Furthermore, it's important for the British people, through their | :54:31. | :54:33. | |
Government and media, to understand what is going on in the Middle East. | :54:34. | :54:38. | |
Does the term human rights violation really fit what we are seeing | :54:39. | :54:43. | |
happening to Christians in the region? Are the systematic and | :54:44. | :54:53. | |
targeted attacks on the UCD is really OK to refer to as one of a | :54:54. | :54:58. | |
number of Middle Eastern humanitarian crises? While the UN is | :54:59. | :55:07. | |
playing a leading role in responding to Daesh's inhumanity, I joined the | :55:08. | :55:12. | |
voices of many in this house by asking the Government to make a | :55:13. | :55:16. | |
referral to the UN Security Council, a referral from the UN Security | :55:17. | :55:20. | |
Council is the own a means by which the International criminal courts | :55:21. | :55:23. | |
can investigate and prosecute these acts of genocide. Genocide is | :55:24. | :55:28. | |
understood by most to be the gravest crime against humanity and this is | :55:29. | :55:35. | |
what seeing perpetrated by Daesh. We have a responsibility as a | :55:36. | :55:39. | |
democratic nation to apply pressure to the democratic judicial bodies... | :55:40. | :55:45. | |
I will give way. In what is a very impressive speech. Has, like other | :55:46. | :55:54. | |
honourable members of the house, he used the word genocide for the | :55:55. | :55:59. | |
treatment of Christians and Yazidis. Does not he think that it would be | :56:00. | :56:07. | |
helpful and indeed possibly powerful if there were a vote on this motion | :56:08. | :56:14. | |
so that this house confirmed its definition of the treatment of the | :56:15. | :56:21. | |
Christians and UCD is as genocide? I entirely agree and I would like to | :56:22. | :56:26. | |
end by saying how much I agree with the Right honourable gentleman that | :56:27. | :56:29. | |
this house needs to have a vote so that we can make that loud and | :56:30. | :56:37. | |
clear. Natalie Megyeri. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker for allowing me | :56:38. | :56:42. | |
to speak on a motion that is of extreme importance for me | :56:43. | :56:45. | |
personally. I would like to congratulate the honourable member | :56:46. | :56:48. | |
for Congleton for bringing forward the motion to Parliament and further | :56:49. | :56:51. | |
I would like to echo her thanks to the work being done in the House of | :56:52. | :56:56. | |
Lords in the last few years to bring this to the attention of the UK | :56:57. | :57:01. | |
population and to us in this place. I would also like to thank the | :57:02. | :57:06. | |
backbench business community for allowing us to have the debate. I | :57:07. | :57:10. | |
started this week writing a speech which would give evidence to the | :57:11. | :57:19. | |
definition of why this was a genocide. But I think that that has | :57:20. | :57:23. | |
been covered by the speeches of other members. The honourable member | :57:24. | :57:27. | |
for Liverpool West and Derby, the honourable member for Eastbourne and | :57:28. | :57:31. | |
indeed the honourable member for Congleton in her introductory | :57:32. | :57:35. | |
speech. Though I don't want to focus too much on the definition, I want | :57:36. | :57:39. | |
to talk about my experience and why this is so important to me and why | :57:40. | :57:44. | |
it's so important to us as a country, a humanitarian country, a | :57:45. | :57:48. | |
country that believes in human rights. I have, in the last eight or | :57:49. | :57:53. | |
nine months as a member of Parliament, travelled to Syria, to a | :57:54. | :58:03. | |
region of Iraq and to Turkey. I have been to refugee camps of Yazidi | :58:04. | :58:12. | |
people and refugee camps... I have spoken to many women and men who | :58:13. | :58:18. | |
have been affected by the actions of Daesh. Yazidi women, children who | :58:19. | :58:27. | |
have been impacted, whose lives are demonstrably changed index extra by | :58:28. | :58:36. | |
what has happened to them in their communities -- inexorably. And that | :58:37. | :58:40. | |
experience is what brings me to stand today to speak to the fact | :58:41. | :58:53. | |
that this is genocide. I met women's organisations, an organisation of | :58:54. | :58:58. | |
Kurdish women, not Yazidi women, Kurdish women, Muslims who are | :58:59. | :59:02. | |
working with Yazidi women to try to bring back those women who have been | :59:03. | :59:08. | |
abducted, who have been raped, brutalised. Barbarism. It's been | :59:09. | :59:15. | |
referred to earlier today, those women who have had the worst | :59:16. | :59:22. | |
experiences are ashamed and ashamed to come back into their communities | :59:23. | :59:25. | |
because of what has happened to them. Children from nine, ten years | :59:26. | :59:34. | |
old raped, impregnated, part of a brutal system of demeaning. | :59:35. | :59:43. | |
Religions, of people, of bringing them to... Women together speaking | :59:44. | :59:50. | |
powerfully to us, representatives who were there, telling us that | :59:51. | :59:56. | |
people from the Kurdish movement there were buying back women at | :59:57. | :00:05. | |
auctions, using their resources to bring women back from slavery. | :00:06. | :00:13. | |
Sometimes they were found out. Sometimes Daesh worked out that they | :00:14. | :00:18. | |
were trying to stop their enslavement, buy them back, to free | :00:19. | :00:22. | |
them, and in those cases those women disappeared. These are powerful, | :00:23. | :00:29. | |
powerful stories of what is happening to women and two men in | :00:30. | :00:31. | |
that area. -- to men. But as I wrote my speech | :00:32. | :00:44. | |
in the last few days, I had a perfectly crafted speech and now I | :00:45. | :00:48. | |
speak just freely. But yesterday I listened to the testimony like | :00:49. | :00:55. | |
others who have referred to is of a 15-year-old who came here to give | :00:56. | :00:59. | |
her testimony. She was abducted from her house and, I'm not going to | :01:00. | :01:04. | |
paraphrase, I actually took down her words directly. I'm going to review | :01:05. | :01:09. | |
her testimony to this place, because her voice and the voice of Yazidi | :01:10. | :01:15. | |
women, deserve to be heard in this place. If anyone wants to intervene, | :01:16. | :01:20. | |
do so now because I'm going to read her words. "There Was a knock at our | :01:21. | :01:27. | |
door. We were targeted because our religion and our belief is different | :01:28. | :01:32. | |
from theirs and our humanity is different from theirs. Because we | :01:33. | :01:40. | |
believe... In our religion we do not believe in raped or that innocence | :01:41. | :01:44. | |
should be killed, or that a child should be cut up and his mother | :01:45. | :01:48. | |
forced to eat him. My father and my two brothers were killed in front of | :01:49. | :01:56. | |
me. They took me away from my mother then he grabbed my arm and my leg | :01:57. | :02:02. | |
and then he raped me. He was 32 years old. I was 15. After they | :02:03. | :02:06. | |
raped me, they took my friend and they raped her. I could hear her | :02:07. | :02:16. | |
shouting, "Where is the mercy? Where is the mercy? There must be some | :02:17. | :02:19. | |
mercy in their hearts". They took the men and they killed girls. What | :02:20. | :02:30. | |
does a nine-year-old understand about sex or about rape? What does | :02:31. | :02:34. | |
she do to deserve this? I saw a nine-year old girl raped in front of | :02:35. | :02:41. | |
my own eyes by not one man but several. I saw her die in front of | :02:42. | :02:45. | |
my eyes because her body could not handle the brutality. I saw a | :02:46. | :02:52. | |
two-year-old boy killed and ground into meat and his mother did not | :02:53. | :02:59. | |
know what she was eating. What are they going to do as pregnant | :03:00. | :03:04. | |
children? There is so much brainwashing. Daesh tell you your | :03:05. | :03:10. | |
religion and they brainwash children. They put them in front of | :03:11. | :03:15. | |
their own parents and demand that they killed them. Listen to me. I am | :03:16. | :03:23. | |
begging you. Listen to me. Listen to what I'm telling you. Help us, I beg | :03:24. | :03:30. | |
of you. Listen to you, help the girls who are still in captivity. | :03:31. | :03:35. | |
Let us all stand hand in hand and take a stance. This is a genocide, | :03:36. | :03:42. | |
against Christians, Yazidis and others. This is about dignity, this | :03:43. | :03:47. | |
is about humanity and dignity. If you are a mother, a father, a | :03:48. | :03:52. | |
brother, a sister, a human. Do not close your ears to our pleas will | :03:53. | :04:00. | |
stop I plead you, listen. This is genocide." Thank you, Madam Deputy | :04:01. | :04:06. | |
Speaker. That was a very moving contribution from the member for | :04:07. | :04:10. | |
Glasgow East and I would like to congratulate the member for | :04:11. | :04:14. | |
Congleton forces during this debate. We will conquer your own, break your | :04:15. | :04:18. | |
crosses and enslave your women. If we do not reach that time, our | :04:19. | :04:23. | |
children and grandchildren will reach it and sell your sons at the | :04:24. | :04:29. | |
slave market". That is Daesh. For this death cult, destruction of a | :04:30. | :04:32. | |
way of life and an ideology and set of beliefs that is not theirs is | :04:33. | :04:36. | |
both their ultimate and their sole aim. Daesh ourselves defining | :04:37. | :04:47. | |
genocists. They enslave, they decapitate. Their victims are busy | :04:48. | :04:52. | |
bees, Kurds, Christians. In Syria, the Syrian Centre for policy | :04:53. | :04:57. | |
research estimates that approximately 470,000 people have | :04:58. | :05:00. | |
been killed either directly or indirectly but what is most shocking | :05:01. | :05:03. | |
is that the United Nations has given up putting estimates on the number | :05:04. | :05:07. | |
because it cannot provide verifiable statistics because the numbers are | :05:08. | :05:15. | |
so vast. Millions more have been displaced or lost. Each cowardly act | :05:16. | :05:20. | |
of death and destruction is just that, a cowardly act, but put | :05:21. | :05:24. | |
together they are a reign of terror targeted at a specific group of | :05:25. | :05:31. | |
people, systematic murder, genocide, of the people who form these | :05:32. | :05:34. | |
communities, of the cultural heritage that has tied together | :05:35. | :05:39. | |
three generations of families and believes -- values and believes that | :05:40. | :05:44. | |
define them. I heard first-hand what Daesh do. I was lucky or unlucky | :05:45. | :05:48. | |
enough to meet with a young brave Yazidi woman called Nadia, a meeting | :05:49. | :05:55. | |
that was co-ordinated for the member for Newark for which I must pay | :05:56. | :06:00. | |
credit. She had been taken by Daesh as a sex slave. Her race was | :06:01. | :06:04. | |
justification enough for the horrific way in which her, her | :06:05. | :06:09. | |
family and community were mistreated and destroyed by Daesh. Madam Deputy | :06:10. | :06:19. | |
Speaker, we failed... The death cult of misfits that we face now cannot | :06:20. | :06:23. | |
be allowed to get away with this for any longer. In Iraq and Syria, | :06:24. | :06:28. | |
Daesh's statements have taking credit for the mass murder and | :06:29. | :06:31. | |
persecution of Christians and have shown its clear intent to urge | :06:32. | :06:35. | |
Christian communities from the area that they claim as their own. -- to | :06:36. | :06:42. | |
purge. As a country, we ourselves show a weakness by failing to | :06:43. | :06:45. | |
acknowledge the extent of the persecution against Yazidis, | :06:46. | :06:50. | |
Christians and other ethnic and religious minorities. We are failing | :06:51. | :06:54. | |
the victims of this deliberate and targeted persecution, where race, | :06:55. | :07:01. | |
faith and gender are all the excuse Daesh need to find new and innocent | :07:02. | :07:07. | |
targets for mass murder. If we do not recognise these acts as | :07:08. | :07:11. | |
genocide, we effectively declare that we are not willing to take all | :07:12. | :07:15. | |
action necessary to bring it to an end and to bring the perpetrators to | :07:16. | :07:18. | |
justice that they so deserve. A week after the honourable member | :07:19. | :07:34. | |
brought Nadia to the House of Commons, I was fortunate enough to | :07:35. | :07:36. | |
bring her to the public gallery here. In fact she went there with my | :07:37. | :07:41. | |
wife who incidentally is the daughter of Holocaust survivors. | :07:42. | :07:46. | |
Afterwards she was so grateful and I couldn't understand why she was so | :07:47. | :07:50. | |
grateful to us, but I think it was because she had faith in this house, | :07:51. | :07:54. | |
she genuinely believed that we would do something. We would act to help | :07:55. | :07:59. | |
her and her people. She wasn't one of our jaded constituents, she | :08:00. | :08:02. | |
thought that this house meant something and that we would do | :08:03. | :08:05. | |
something to help her and her people. | :08:06. | :08:08. | |
We have a responsibility, being the August democracy in the world, we | :08:09. | :08:22. | |
have a responsibility to Nadia. This is not a position that a country | :08:23. | :08:27. | |
that is steadfast in its commitment to fairness, freedom and justice | :08:28. | :08:29. | |
should be relaxed about. The practical consequence of the growing | :08:30. | :08:36. | |
these acts genocide is key to preventing the spread of terrorism, | :08:37. | :08:39. | |
preventing the spread of radicalisation and it allows the | :08:40. | :08:43. | |
International commercial tribunal to be set up and try the terrorists | :08:44. | :08:49. | |
committing these Venus acts. Which is why I am supporting this motion | :08:50. | :08:55. | |
this afternoon. I wonder if I can have the liberty of the House to | :08:56. | :08:59. | |
read out a quote from Hansard on 12 April, which had a statement from | :09:00. | :09:02. | |
our very own minister when he was challenged on this issue, and I | :09:03. | :09:06. | |
would like to quote the minister on the 12th of April. His response when | :09:07. | :09:11. | |
he was challenged previously was," I, too, believe that acts of | :09:12. | :09:17. | |
genocide have taken place. I repeat, the Minister is on the record as | :09:18. | :09:23. | |
saying, "I, two, the leader acts of genocide have taken place." I hope | :09:24. | :09:28. | |
that we can move on from that statement, as well. -- believe that | :09:29. | :09:35. | |
acts of. I thank the honourable lady for giving way. Does she, like me, | :09:36. | :09:40. | |
hope that the whole House will be given the opportunity to send a | :09:41. | :09:43. | |
powerful message by voting and being united in that vote and inviting | :09:44. | :09:51. | |
those ministers to vote as well to send such a strong message that what | :09:52. | :09:57. | |
is happening is genocide? The member for mid Dorset makes a powerful | :09:58. | :10:00. | |
statement. I hope that is the case, but also during the cross-party | :10:01. | :10:04. | |
support this debate as witnessed today will also be a very strong | :10:05. | :10:13. | |
message. To explain Rwanda, Diks Lane Nazi persecution. Now it is our | :10:14. | :10:17. | |
turn to decide whether we will have to explain to fugitive generations | :10:18. | :10:22. | |
what we did or did not do against the death cult, Daesh. This | :10:23. | :10:28. | |
historical moment can be a tool prevention but it is rare that | :10:29. | :10:32. | |
society uses it in that way. Let's see the generation that uses it as a | :10:33. | :10:40. | |
tool prevention today. Daesh are currently destroying and rewriting | :10:41. | :10:44. | |
history all at once. Not satisfied with destroying the past and | :10:45. | :10:50. | |
presents of races states and gender, they are destroying the future of | :10:51. | :10:55. | |
this region, too. It is our collective job as a member of the UN | :10:56. | :11:01. | |
family of nations to make sure that these communities are not just of a | :11:02. | :11:06. | |
lot of ink in the story of Daesh. -- blot of ink. The oral member has | :11:07. | :11:16. | |
spoken and I have agreed with every single word that she has said. We | :11:17. | :11:20. | |
have had a fantastic debate. I hope that the government will support | :11:21. | :11:24. | |
this motion, that we can move forward and ensure that action will | :11:25. | :11:28. | |
be taken as a consequence of the debate we are having. Many members | :11:29. | :11:32. | |
of the House have congratulated the honourable lady for Congleton for | :11:33. | :11:35. | |
bringing this motion. She is to be King graduated. We should be so | :11:36. | :11:39. | |
proud that we are debating this matter of such importance in the | :11:40. | :11:44. | |
House today. Madam Deputy Speaker, we have a moral responsibility to | :11:45. | :11:47. | |
speak out against crimes of genocide that have taken place against Chris | :11:48. | :11:53. | |
Jones, Yazidis and other ethnic and religious minorities in Iraq and | :11:54. | :11:56. | |
Syria. We should be exercising that is possible bypassing the boat | :11:57. | :12:00. | |
calling upon the UK Government to make it an immediate referral to the | :12:01. | :12:04. | |
UN Security Council to grant the International Criminal Court the | :12:05. | :12:06. | |
mandate to bring the perpetrators to justice. As the honourable member | :12:07. | :12:11. | |
for Torbay reminded the House, the Allied governments with a | :12:12. | :12:15. | |
coordinated joint statements on the 17th of December 1942, to condemn | :12:16. | :12:21. | |
genocide and then beat committed to bringing the Nazis to justice for | :12:22. | :12:24. | |
their crimes at that time. Just as we stood against genocide then, and | :12:25. | :12:28. | |
made sure that those responsible would face justice, we must now show | :12:29. | :12:33. | |
the required level of leadership today in the face of genocide in | :12:34. | :12:38. | |
Syria and Iraq. The government needs to show that leadership in pressing | :12:39. | :12:40. | |
the case for the recognition of genocide and we must reflect on the | :12:41. | :12:45. | |
moral, ethical and humanitarian basis that action has to be taken. | :12:46. | :12:52. | |
Genocide is understood as the deliberate, systematic, | :12:53. | :12:55. | |
extermination of national, racial, political or cultural groups, and | :12:56. | :12:58. | |
that is exactly what has been taking place. The ongoing conflicts in | :12:59. | :13:04. | |
Syria and Iraq have seen the deliberate targeting of Yazidis, | :13:05. | :13:07. | |
Christians and other minorities. If we take the example of the Yazidi | :13:08. | :13:13. | |
town of Sinjar that was captured by Daesh in August 2000 14. The seizure | :13:14. | :13:18. | |
of the city unleashed the ethnic cleansing of the Yazidi people. Your | :13:19. | :13:22. | |
report tells us that 200,000 Yazidi people were driven from their homes | :13:23. | :13:28. | |
after the fall of Sinjar. 40,000 Yazidi 's were trapped on Mount | :13:29. | :13:32. | |
Sinjar, cup of white Daesh, they were without food, water or shelter. | :13:33. | :13:36. | |
As has already been said, the choice for many was to be slaughtered by | :13:37. | :13:42. | |
Daesh, or death by dehydration if they stay. The UN has estimated 5000 | :13:43. | :13:48. | |
men were massacred and 7000 women enslaved in this action. The women | :13:49. | :13:54. | |
captured by Daesh were sold into sexual slavery and many were placed | :13:55. | :13:59. | |
throughout Daesh- controlled territories. Destiny from survivors | :14:00. | :14:03. | |
tells of horrific and daily violence. This has been a deliberate | :14:04. | :14:08. | |
policy carried out by Daesh. The testimony of those who have escaped, | :14:09. | :14:12. | |
Yazidi is an Christians, tells of the violent abuses carried out | :14:13. | :14:17. | |
against them. As we heard from others, last night in Parliament, | :14:18. | :14:19. | |
young Yazidi woman came to tell her own story. It was a most harrowing | :14:20. | :14:26. | |
account of what had happened to her, her family and a graphic description | :14:27. | :14:30. | |
of what has happened not only to her, but to thousands of other | :14:31. | :14:34. | |
people in Syria and in Iraq. Before she spoke she was introduced by | :14:35. | :14:38. | |
human rights lawyer, Jacqueline Isaac. She spoke of a shock of the | :14:39. | :14:43. | |
fear of the nor can the door from fighters from Daesh Woodward lead to | :14:44. | :14:48. | |
be people been characterised into different groups, with murder, rape | :14:49. | :14:53. | |
and being taken hostage, place. That was just exactly what took place | :14:54. | :14:56. | |
with the Nazis in Germany and elsewhere in Europe that resulted in | :14:57. | :15:01. | |
the UK Government signalling its intent, in 1942, to bring the | :15:02. | :15:05. | |
perpetrators to justice. If it was right in 1942, it is right in this | :15:06. | :15:10. | |
House today in 2016. I hope that when we close this debate that the | :15:11. | :15:15. | |
House and the government will unite in supporting this and that we can | :15:16. | :15:20. | |
do the right thing for Yazidis, Christians and other minorities who | :15:21. | :15:22. | |
have suffered in the wholesale removal of their communities from | :15:23. | :15:29. | |
the region. I thank the honourable gentleman for giving way. He is | :15:30. | :15:32. | |
making some excellent points. I wonder if he would agree with me | :15:33. | :15:37. | |
that, whilst these minorities are being persecuted because of their | :15:38. | :15:40. | |
religion, the debate today should not be about advocating one religion | :15:41. | :15:45. | |
or another, it is about the basic human rights for all of us to choose | :15:46. | :15:49. | |
any faith we choose or to choose none. Would he recognise that in | :15:50. | :15:54. | |
this House there are many people of different faiths and people of no | :15:55. | :15:58. | |
faith who will defend to the bitter end the right of others to exercise | :15:59. | :16:02. | |
their faith and to do so without persecution? I am grateful to My | :16:03. | :16:07. | |
Honourable Friend for making that point. As a practising Christian I | :16:08. | :16:12. | |
am happy to accept everyone's right to profess their religion or none at | :16:13. | :16:16. | |
all. It is important that in this Chamber, that we stand up for | :16:17. | :16:20. | |
everybody. Madam Deputy Speaker, it has been said that when she closed | :16:21. | :16:28. | |
her address last night, she implored us, she said, I am asking for help | :16:29. | :16:32. | |
or stop Madam Deputy Speaker, we have responsibility for Eclas and | :16:33. | :16:39. | |
everybody else. What are we going to do for Eclas? We must stand up and | :16:40. | :16:45. | |
support a call of the UNC Ju Reti Council to confer restriction on the | :16:46. | :16:48. | |
International Criminal Court, so that we can take action. The Pesch | :16:49. | :16:53. | |
Maiga attack the place where Eclas was being held and she managed to | :16:54. | :16:56. | |
escape before being rescued by Yazidis. This brave young woman, who | :16:57. | :17:02. | |
has faced so much and witnessed such horrors, wants to become a lawyer | :17:03. | :17:05. | |
and fight for the rights of woman. Really just maybe, if she fulfils | :17:06. | :17:10. | |
that ambition, she can yet play her part in the legal team that brings | :17:11. | :17:17. | |
her prosecutors to justice. We must help her and those like her who have | :17:18. | :17:19. | |
suffered from genocide that has taken place. The situation we know | :17:20. | :17:26. | |
it's Syria and in Iraq has been catastrophic and has led to one of | :17:27. | :17:30. | |
the worst human attending crises ever witnessed. The number of | :17:31. | :17:34. | |
Christians in Syria has fallen from 2 million thousand 11, two 1 million | :17:35. | :17:41. | |
in 2015. In Iraq, it has fallen from 1.4 million, down to 260,000 today. | :17:42. | :17:46. | |
Daesh has documented its specific intent to destroy Kuching groups in | :17:47. | :17:51. | |
Syria and Iraq in its official propaganda. In February 2015 it | :17:52. | :17:59. | |
seized villages and sort of older people fleeing to safety. 35 | :18:00. | :18:04. | |
villages were cleared and deserted in that one action alone. The | :18:05. | :18:10. | |
atrocities satisfy the criteria established in the convention as | :18:11. | :18:15. | |
genocide or stop by recognising that genocide has taken place, and | :18:16. | :18:17. | |
signalling that those responsible should face justice, is an important | :18:18. | :18:23. | |
tool in the fight to defeat Daesh. We need to send a clear message to | :18:24. | :18:27. | |
all the minorities that have been affected, that have been attacked, | :18:28. | :18:31. | |
that we are not going to abandon them, that we and other nations must | :18:32. | :18:36. | |
stand shoulder to shoulder and show are resolved at the UN. -- show our | :18:37. | :18:45. | |
resolve. Does he agree with me that there needs to be an international | :18:46. | :18:55. | |
effort to find the Yazidi women captured by Daesh's I fully agree. | :18:56. | :19:00. | |
The young woman we met last night is a perfect example of that. By the | :19:01. | :19:05. | |
actions of the Pesch Maiga, she managed to be freed and she got into | :19:06. | :19:09. | |
the hands of the Yazidis, so be must support the Pesch Berger and other | :19:10. | :19:15. | |
like-minded people to make sure that we can ensure the safety of the men | :19:16. | :19:18. | |
and women that have been captured by Daesh. I hope that the government | :19:19. | :19:23. | |
will support this motion this afternoon and I hope that the | :19:24. | :19:27. | |
Minister makes it clear that the government will do so. Others have | :19:28. | :19:30. | |
already taken this step. The Parliamentary Assembly of the | :19:31. | :19:34. | |
Council of Europe recognised genocide in the resolution passed on | :19:35. | :19:38. | |
27th of January this year. This was followed by others elution in the | :19:39. | :19:42. | |
European Parliament on. Every that recognised the crime of genocide and | :19:43. | :19:45. | |
sought referral to the International Criminal Court. On 14th March, US | :19:46. | :19:51. | |
House of Representatives recognise crimes against humanity and | :19:52. | :19:55. | |
genocide. Three days later, the US Secretary of State announced that | :19:56. | :19:58. | |
the US had determined that the Daesh actions against the Yazidis, | :19:59. | :20:03. | |
Christians and other minorities constituted genocide. Why has the UK | :20:04. | :20:06. | |
Government been silent, and why have we not yet seen action? We know that | :20:07. | :20:12. | |
the Foreign Secretary has supported the International Criminal Court to | :20:13. | :20:19. | |
hold perpetrators to account, but we know that the international court | :20:20. | :20:26. | |
has to be enabled by the Security Council, and the UN Security Council | :20:27. | :20:29. | |
must provide that enable Matt. We hear about the importance of the | :20:30. | :20:34. | |
UK's membership of the UN Security Council. Here is a chance for the | :20:35. | :20:37. | |
United Kingdom to show leadership and to take action, to stand up for | :20:38. | :20:45. | |
Eclas, to respond to her plea for help for all those who have | :20:46. | :20:51. | |
suffered. To show that in 1942 people do the right thing as in 2016 | :20:52. | :20:56. | |
or will we just stand back, wring our hands, and watch as Daesh reap | :20:57. | :21:00. | |
their bitter harvest was Mike Roe we are signatories to the convention of | :21:01. | :21:05. | |
genocide, we have a moral obligation to recognise what has taken place. I | :21:06. | :21:11. | |
hope and pray this afternoon that, collectively, the House, United, | :21:12. | :21:18. | |
does the right thing. I would like to join others in King flagellating | :21:19. | :21:25. | |
My Honourable Friend the member for Congleton for her tremendous efforts | :21:26. | :21:29. | |
in securing this debate. Words do matter. And saying that Daesh is | :21:30. | :21:36. | |
committing acts of genocide against Christians and Yazidis is not just a | :21:37. | :21:39. | |
statement of fact. It also forces us to realise that genocide is | :21:40. | :21:45. | |
unfortunately an inherent part of Daesh's depraved operations. And the | :21:46. | :21:51. | |
genocidal acts we have heard, the assassination of church leaders, the | :21:52. | :21:59. | |
systematic torture and mass mode, crucifixions, sexual enslavement, | :22:00. | :22:03. | |
systematic rape, which we heard in shocking and powerful detail from | :22:04. | :22:06. | |
the oral lady, the member for Glasgow East, these acts are not | :22:07. | :22:11. | |
just genocidal by consequence but by design. This distinction is | :22:12. | :22:16. | |
absolutely clear in the Daesh propaganda sheets. The latest | :22:17. | :22:22. | |
edition attacks any form of religion, any form of tolerance as | :22:23. | :22:26. | |
being in direct contradiction to their twisted view of Islam. They | :22:27. | :22:31. | |
say, and I quote, that the death of a single Muslim, no matter his role | :22:32. | :22:36. | |
in society, is more grave than the massacre of every kaffir on earth. | :22:37. | :22:45. | |
The same article says that any disbeliever standing in the way of | :22:46. | :22:48. | |
Islamic State will be killed without Eddie or Morse, until governance is | :22:49. | :22:57. | |
entirely for Allah. These statements are incompatible with the presence | :22:58. | :23:02. | |
of minority groups on Daesh territory. So we are seeing quantum | :23:03. | :23:06. | |
treated efforts from Daesh not only to obliterate any minority presence | :23:07. | :23:09. | |
but to deny the cultural history of the territory they seat occupied. -- | :23:10. | :23:17. | |
they seat occupied. We have seen a number of Christians drop from 1.4 | :23:18. | :23:22. | |
million down to 250,000 in Iraq, and we have seen the historical | :23:23. | :23:29. | |
settlement of 60,000 Christians in Mosul entirely disappear. We have | :23:30. | :23:33. | |
seen the targeted destruction of sites such as monasteries, | :23:34. | :23:37. | |
libraries, representational art and they're having edicts structuring | :23:38. | :23:43. | |
Daesh troops to engage in the wholesale destruction of Islamic | :23:44. | :23:44. | |
sites of worship. He makes a very important point. His | :23:45. | :23:55. | |
point about Daesh's ignorance and denial about the historical and | :23:56. | :24:00. | |
cultural nature of the area is crucial here. I studied the early | :24:01. | :24:04. | |
caliphate, in that period many of the leaders of the Muslim world | :24:05. | :24:08. | |
described the classical world that they took over as a garden protected | :24:09. | :24:13. | |
by their spears. Isn't it tragic that they should's perversion of | :24:14. | :24:19. | |
Islam is so different from the vision that they set out in the | :24:20. | :24:24. | |
early days of the caliphate? It is not only tragic, it is twisted, | :24:25. | :24:28. | |
bizarre and unimaginable that they should have taken their own religion | :24:29. | :24:32. | |
and turned it into something so distinctly different from that which | :24:33. | :24:36. | |
it was expected to provide. I would be happy to. | :24:37. | :24:40. | |
Last year myself and a number of members of this has persuaded the | :24:41. | :24:45. | |
Government to create a ?30 million cultural protection fund, the | :24:46. | :24:48. | |
Government is in the process of deciding the criteria of how that | :24:49. | :24:52. | |
would be spent. Would you agree that some of that money should go to the | :24:53. | :24:57. | |
Heritage sites are persecuted religious minorities, such as | :24:58. | :25:01. | |
Christian and Yazidi groups in Syria and Iraq, to protect historic sites, | :25:02. | :25:06. | |
and manuscript is for future generations? | :25:07. | :25:11. | |
I could not agree more. It is important to remember that the | :25:12. | :25:15. | |
cultural demolition we are seeing is explicitly linked to the genocidal | :25:16. | :25:20. | |
aims that we have heard discussed. To say that Christians and Yazidis | :25:21. | :25:23. | |
are the victims of genocide is not to minimise the terrible suffering | :25:24. | :25:28. | |
of others in the region. In the debate held on a similar amendment | :25:29. | :25:33. | |
in another place, the noble lord Lord eights was entirely right to | :25:34. | :25:37. | |
point out that it is very often Muslims, as we have heard today, | :25:38. | :25:41. | |
suffering the greatest brutality of all at the hands of Daesh. As we | :25:42. | :25:48. | |
have also just heard, over the last six months the United Nations, the | :25:49. | :25:52. | |
United States Congress, the Council of Europe and the US Secretary of | :25:53. | :25:55. | |
State have all declared that genocide is being committed by | :25:56. | :26:01. | |
Daesh. Madam Deputy Speaker, I completely understand... I will give | :26:02. | :26:08. | |
way. He makes a very important point about the other bodies who have | :26:09. | :26:12. | |
declared that this is genocide. Having heard from Daesh themselves | :26:13. | :26:16. | |
and having been witness to so many young Yazidi women coming to tell us | :26:17. | :26:20. | |
their story, what more could it possibly take for this house also to | :26:21. | :26:25. | |
form the view that this is genocide, and to have the courage to stand up | :26:26. | :26:32. | |
and say so plus Jamaat I agree with the honourable lady. Her speech | :26:33. | :26:37. | |
earlier was immensely powerful, from the first person perspective. I | :26:38. | :26:43. | |
completely understand the Government's approach that a | :26:44. | :26:45. | |
decision as to whether the word genocide is applicable as a decision | :26:46. | :26:49. | |
for the international judicial bodies rather than governments or | :26:50. | :26:54. | |
non-judicial bodies, but as the open letter from a group of peers to the | :26:55. | :26:58. | |
Prime Minister on the 18th of February described, there is nothing | :26:59. | :27:04. | |
to prevent Her Majesty's Government from forming and acting on its own | :27:05. | :27:09. | |
view. A vote for the motion before the house would begin the process of | :27:10. | :27:14. | |
a possible referral to the International criminal Court from | :27:15. | :27:17. | |
the UN Security Council. It would send a signal to the perpetrators | :27:18. | :27:21. | |
that they will be brought to justice and would, perhaps more crucially, | :27:22. | :27:27. | |
act as a spur to the other 127 signatories of the 9048 Convention | :27:28. | :27:34. | |
to add their support as well. -- the 1948. An emigre writer of a previous | :27:35. | :27:39. | |
generation who fled persecution said that words without experience are | :27:40. | :27:43. | |
meaningless. But the reverse is also true. When hundreds of thousands of | :27:44. | :27:50. | |
people are suffering in this way, I think we must apply the only word | :27:51. | :27:56. | |
which is adequate for the job, and support this important motion before | :27:57. | :28:03. | |
the house today. Jim Shannon. Thank you, it is a pleasure to speak on | :28:04. | :28:08. | |
this issue. Can I declare an interest, first of all, as the chair | :28:09. | :28:10. | |
of the all-party parliamentary group for Pakistan religious minorities, | :28:11. | :28:17. | |
and the freedom of religious belief. Those with Christian beliefs, those | :28:18. | :28:21. | |
with other beliefs and those with no belief, as the honourable gentleman | :28:22. | :28:27. | |
said in his intervention. Whether it be IS, Islamic State, Isil, is this, | :28:28. | :28:36. | |
Daesh, many names, many guises but, above all, systematic psychopathic | :28:37. | :28:45. | |
serial killers. Today is about the Yazidis, the Christians, the ethnic | :28:46. | :28:48. | |
and religious minorities. I am pleased to see the minister in his | :28:49. | :28:52. | |
place and look forward to his response. We have talked about it | :28:53. | :28:56. | |
this year on a personal basis, I hope we will have the chance to | :28:57. | :28:59. | |
express ourselves clearly on what we want to do in this house in relation | :29:00. | :29:04. | |
to the word genocide. There have been many powerful, powerful | :29:05. | :29:08. | |
speeches. They have been very passionate and focused. I would like | :29:09. | :29:12. | |
to mention particular the honourable lady for Congleton. I am pleased to | :29:13. | :29:17. | |
have her as a colleague and a friend, thanking her for setting the | :29:18. | :29:21. | |
scene very well. The Daesh atrocities rival any atrocity in | :29:22. | :29:26. | |
modern history, too many turn a blind eye, offering weak words or | :29:27. | :29:29. | |
even attempt to rationalise it. In this house today the words are | :29:30. | :29:35. | |
strong. What this self-declared state is doing is disgraceful. Would | :29:36. | :29:39. | |
they care if their actions are called genocide or not? They will | :29:40. | :29:45. | |
not, but we in this house in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and | :29:46. | :29:47. | |
Northern Ireland should, and should set the bar that this cannot go on | :29:48. | :29:51. | |
without being condemned in the utmost weight and being labelled | :29:52. | :29:57. | |
appropriately as it is, genocide. There are some in my constituency | :29:58. | :30:00. | |
who correspond with me, and me with them, this is an issue that they | :30:01. | :30:05. | |
feel very strongly about. The brutality, the violence, the | :30:06. | :30:09. | |
depravity, the evil. Those who survive physically are traumatised | :30:10. | :30:14. | |
forever, we must ever be mindful of art. Islamic State militant are | :30:15. | :30:19. | |
selling Abdur did Iraqi children as sex slaves, killing youth by | :30:20. | :30:25. | |
crucifixion or burying them alive, the ultimatum is convert or die. | :30:26. | :30:30. | |
That is genocide. 31 Egyptian Christians were kidnapped in a | :30:31. | :30:33. | |
Libyan coastal surgery in tee separate incidents in December and | :30:34. | :30:38. | |
January 20 15. In February they were beheaded on a Libyan beach in a | :30:39. | :30:43. | |
chilling propaganda video by the self titled Islamic State. At the -- | :30:44. | :30:52. | |
after capturing a key strategic town, they rented a 45 civilians, | :30:53. | :30:57. | |
some thought to be Iraq -- Iraqi security forces and their families, | :30:58. | :31:01. | |
and burn them all alive. That is genocide. On June ten, 2014, Daesh | :31:02. | :31:06. | |
took 600 male prisoners into the desert near Mosul in Iraq and | :31:07. | :31:12. | |
initiated a mass execution. Approximately 30 men survived by | :31:13. | :31:14. | |
rolling into the mass grave along with the other dead bodies. The | :31:15. | :31:19. | |
pictures are absolutely chilling and produce an even more terrifying | :31:20. | :31:23. | |
memory of the worst genocide of the 20th century. A survivor recounts a | :31:24. | :31:28. | |
Daesh leader saying the Sydney must stand on one side, the Shia, the | :31:29. | :31:34. | |
Kurds and the Yazidis on another. If I find Shia among the Sunnis, I will | :31:35. | :31:39. | |
cut off his head with a sheet metal. Those are the words spoken by Daesh, | :31:40. | :31:43. | |
who have a hatred of everyone not of their like. They are interrogated | :31:44. | :31:48. | |
about beliefs, names, hometowns and other details. About 100 Shia | :31:49. | :31:53. | |
prisoners were successful are pretending to be Sunni to escape | :31:54. | :31:59. | |
further violence. The remaining Shia, Kurdish, Christian and Yazidi | :32:00. | :32:04. | |
prisoners were searched. They took their money, watches, rings, | :32:05. | :32:07. | |
jewellery, identity cards. One survivor said the more they got all | :32:08. | :32:13. | |
of our possessions, I knew they would killers. The prisoners were | :32:14. | :32:18. | |
given no food or water for 24 hours. They were promised surprise when | :32:19. | :32:21. | |
they drove deeper into the desert. One arrived, the militants said, you | :32:22. | :32:25. | |
will have water in paradise. The men were made to lie in -- line up in a | :32:26. | :32:33. | |
single file, each person was forced to raise his hand and state his | :32:34. | :32:37. | |
number. Survivors said many of the gunman were young, some appeared | :32:38. | :32:46. | |
nervous, others excited. Some of them said they would eat well | :32:47. | :32:50. | |
tonight. Madam Deputy Speaker, that is genocide. Further documented | :32:51. | :32:53. | |
incidents include 1700 active captives executed in Tikrit in Iraq, | :32:54. | :33:06. | |
hundreds in Mosul, Kurds massacred, including 700 children, 2000 women | :33:07. | :33:10. | |
and children kidnapped, systematic hunting of members of ethnic and | :33:11. | :33:13. | |
religious groups. In the words of the UN, that is genocide. Women | :33:14. | :33:19. | |
raped and sold, young boys executed, girls and slaves for sexual abuse, | :33:20. | :33:24. | |
children recruited as suicide bombers, more than 1 million | :33:25. | :33:28. | |
refugees, half of them children. This might help the Minister, I hope | :33:29. | :33:33. | |
it does, just to say what is happening in Northern Ireland. I am | :33:34. | :33:37. | |
conscience of timing, at the Northern Ireland Assembly asked for | :33:38. | :33:40. | |
direction from the Attorney General and they said that the violence | :33:41. | :33:43. | |
currently being perpetrated against Christians and other minority | :33:44. | :33:46. | |
religious groups, the Yazidis are members of certain Islamic | :33:47. | :33:52. | |
communities constitutes genocide within the meaning of the December | :33:53. | :33:56. | |
nine, 1948 UN Convention on the prevention and punishment up the | :33:57. | :34:01. | |
crime of genocide, the Genocide Convention. A behaviour can be | :34:02. | :34:08. | |
properly classified as genocide. The 30s consequences is the activation | :34:09. | :34:16. | |
of the twofold thing contained in Article one to prevent and punish | :34:17. | :34:18. | |
genocide. Article one that the contracting parties confirm that | :34:19. | :34:22. | |
genocide, whether committed in time of peace or war, is a crime under | :34:23. | :34:26. | |
international law which they undertake to prevent and punish. | :34:27. | :34:31. | |
The day of reckoning is here for Daesh, the Attorney General the | :34:32. | :34:33. | |
Northern Ireland Assembly 's. It seems that actual or potential | :34:34. | :34:38. | |
victims of genocide have the right to the acknowledgement of their | :34:39. | :34:40. | |
circumstances. Governments are undead corresponding duty to make | :34:41. | :34:46. | |
these acknowledgements. The violence perpetrated against these groups, I | :34:47. | :34:51. | |
do not have as -- hesitate to say, constitutes genocide. With that in | :34:52. | :34:55. | |
mind, I hope the Minister can take the words of the Attorney General | :34:56. | :34:59. | |
and what he has decreed in Northern Ireland. Legally, I believe, it | :35:00. | :35:03. | |
helps the Minister to make this decision. Amnesty International's | :35:04. | :35:07. | |
article, Ethnic Cleansing On An Historic Scale details with | :35:08. | :35:14. | |
eyewitness Vesely seven more Daesh atrocities in Iraq, at least 100 men | :35:15. | :35:19. | |
and boys herded together and shot to death, scores of men and boys | :35:20. | :35:23. | |
executed, more than 50 men and boys rounded up, dead boys, raped girls | :35:24. | :35:30. | |
and captive villagers gunned down for refusing to renounce their | :35:31. | :35:33. | |
faith. They die everyday at the hands of Isis and Daesh. It is not a | :35:34. | :35:39. | |
horror movie, I wish it was, it is taking place just a plane flight | :35:40. | :35:43. | |
away from here. It is time that we call it what it is, it is | :35:44. | :35:48. | |
systematic, it is genocide. It is a great pleasure to take place | :35:49. | :35:54. | |
-- part in this important debate. I want to tell the Government that we | :35:55. | :35:58. | |
need to be no doubt that if the vote is passed on this motion, it be | :35:59. | :36:03. | |
ignored. Other motions have come forward, but this is at the very | :36:04. | :36:08. | |
highest of seriousness and importance. We will not let it be | :36:09. | :36:12. | |
ignored. We will return again and again until the Government properly | :36:13. | :36:16. | |
makes that justified referral to the Security Council. I want to pay | :36:17. | :36:20. | |
tribute to the member for Congleton, she has had enormous tributes and | :36:21. | :36:25. | |
should have more. She is very much the voice of the voiceless, a | :36:26. | :36:27. | |
champion of human dignity. Along with the noble and -- the noble lord | :36:28. | :36:34. | |
Alton in the other Place, who is watching and has all his sterling | :36:35. | :36:38. | |
work in trying to cajole and entice the Government to do what makes | :36:39. | :36:41. | |
sense. It is about being a voice. A passionate speech from the member | :36:42. | :36:46. | |
for Glasgow East not least brought to bear the voice of those who have | :36:47. | :36:50. | |
those harrowing experiences, who have been the victims of the | :36:51. | :36:53. | |
appalling actions of Isis. Richard was made by the Manor -- honourable | :36:54. | :37:02. | |
member of the pub near Arce, the replicate you can see at Trafalgar | :37:03. | :37:07. | |
Square -- the Palmyra Arce. I saw the unveiling of the Palmyra arch. | :37:08. | :37:14. | |
The point made by the head about antiquities from Syria, he was proud | :37:15. | :37:18. | |
that we could stand in solidarity. Solidarity with the Syrians, victims | :37:19. | :37:22. | |
of appalling crimes. The replica Palmyra arch to -- provides a | :37:23. | :37:27. | |
declaration of solidarity. We are doing that today, by declaring | :37:28. | :37:32. | |
genocide. What he and the victims would want is a sport to -- us to do | :37:33. | :37:40. | |
more, and this has teeth so it wants to encourage and ensure their legal | :37:41. | :37:43. | |
obligations. The honourable member before said that the Palmyra arch | :37:44. | :37:49. | |
basically says Isis can't win. They can't win. This motion is about | :37:50. | :37:54. | |
saying that they can't win. They need to be held to account, there | :37:55. | :38:00. | |
needs to be justice. What the head of UNESCO said about the | :38:01. | :38:04. | |
destruction, whether it is the arch or churches, monasteries and shrines | :38:05. | :38:11. | |
that have affected many groups, it is cultural genocide, they are all | :38:12. | :38:13. | |
kinds, they need to be held to account. The Government has | :38:14. | :38:18. | |
recognised the issue of cultural destruction, it needs to ensure | :38:19. | :38:21. | |
there is accountability. That is why I very much hope and look forward to | :38:22. | :38:27. | |
the Queen's Speech including the belated ratification of the Hague | :38:28. | :38:30. | |
Convention and its second protocols. At the purpose is to show and | :38:31. | :38:34. | |
accountability to cultural destruction. It would be | :38:35. | :38:37. | |
extraordinary if we see the passage through, the passing of the Hague | :38:38. | :38:41. | |
Convention on the ratification, showing accountability in relation | :38:42. | :38:44. | |
to cultural destruction, but will not do what we should do which is | :38:45. | :38:47. | |
ensure accountability for acts of genocide. | :38:48. | :38:56. | |
The declaration needs to be made today that they can't win and it is | :38:57. | :39:02. | |
passed unanimously and we also take action. I will go through the | :39:03. | :39:05. | |
examples that have already been mentioned that Nick the case that | :39:06. | :39:10. | |
there is not only deliberate brutalist targeting of culture, but | :39:11. | :39:19. | |
also history and people. Kidnapping, in slaving. The UN report at least | :39:20. | :39:29. | |
3500 people have been enslaved. Many executed. Many aren't jihadist | :39:30. | :39:33. | |
website. The burgeoning command, convert or die. We are not simply | :39:34. | :39:39. | |
acting out of solidarity or making a positional statement. It is | :39:40. | :39:42. | |
important to hold the government here to account. What has the | :39:43. | :39:48. | |
government done over recent times? In one sense there was a concern | :39:49. | :39:52. | |
that we would have to categorise the government responses as walk on by. | :39:53. | :39:59. | |
I say that sadly. To go back to the 16th of December and go back to an | :40:00. | :40:05. | |
answer, we are not submitting any evidence of possible genocide | :40:06. | :40:11. | |
against your CDs were Christians to international courts, nor have we | :40:12. | :40:16. | |
been asked to. What an extraordinary thing that our government was going | :40:17. | :40:20. | |
to sit on its hands. We know that the obligations in the genocide | :40:21. | :40:24. | |
Convention have obligations on the top of themselves to take a view and | :40:25. | :40:31. | |
to act upon it. The Minister in his place today seven April, this month, | :40:32. | :40:38. | |
that we are helping to gather evidence that could be used to hold | :40:39. | :40:43. | |
an ISP account appropriately. I would ask him to confirm that the | :40:44. | :40:48. | |
government is doing that, there are properly referring to to the | :40:49. | :40:51. | |
Security Council. How else could we categorise the response from the | :40:52. | :40:55. | |
government? In some ways it is going around in circles. The Minister | :40:56. | :41:01. | |
himself has preferred, saying that we as the government is not the | :41:02. | :41:07. | |
judge and jury, it is done in the International courts and the | :41:08. | :41:12. | |
Security Council. The Security Council has a key role to play. The | :41:13. | :41:16. | |
Minister give himself away through this. The Security Council can make | :41:17. | :41:20. | |
a feral and that is what this margin is about. The government can't just | :41:21. | :41:24. | |
defer to the international courts and go around in circles. Many noble | :41:25. | :41:30. | |
Lords signed a letter to the Prime Minister making this point, there is | :41:31. | :41:36. | |
nothing to stop the government acting on its own view. The | :41:37. | :41:42. | |
government has not taken the view itself, and I don't understand why, | :41:43. | :41:46. | |
unlike other governments authorities. -- and authorities. I | :41:47. | :41:56. | |
repeat the questions of those eminent Lords and QCs, why would the | :41:57. | :42:08. | |
government renew its decision to not... Why are they making the | :42:09. | :42:14. | |
proper means to means to go to the Security Council to ensure that the | :42:15. | :42:17. | |
feral is made to the international court. We have to ask ourselves why. | :42:18. | :42:23. | |
It's a big concern not just about the evidence of genocide, but the | :42:24. | :42:27. | |
consequences, the legal consequences of that? Isn't unconcerned about the | :42:28. | :42:34. | |
horror implications to pick them is, because at long last it would have | :42:35. | :42:38. | |
the assurance that there will be justice, the perpetrators will be | :42:39. | :42:42. | |
held to account. It is important that they are recognised as Vic | :42:43. | :42:52. | |
rooms and can be restoration, in a real forum for lives that have been | :42:53. | :42:58. | |
seriously damaged. The needs to be settlement and safety for refugees. | :42:59. | :43:07. | |
They need to find safe passage. Today we are making a declaration. | :43:08. | :43:12. | |
We are there in solidarity. We are also saying to the government but | :43:13. | :43:16. | |
you must hold Isis to account for genocide. We will not let the | :43:17. | :43:22. | |
government ignore this notion today. They must take action for the good | :43:23. | :43:25. | |
of all those groups we have mentioned, and for the civilised | :43:26. | :43:37. | |
world. I have to reduce the time limits of speeches to five minutes, | :43:38. | :43:41. | |
with apologies I will call this Chamakh Durcan. Like others, I want | :43:42. | :43:48. | |
to pay tribute to the honourable member for giving the house the | :43:49. | :43:53. | |
opportunity to respond to the pleased that we have herds from a | :43:54. | :44:02. | |
number of yes CD young woman who had come to the site is not just to tell | :44:03. | :44:06. | |
us of their own experience bouts of those like them who remain in | :44:07. | :44:07. | |
captivity. I am conscious that we have heard in | :44:08. | :44:26. | |
recent months from Nadi mirror out who told us of her experiences in a | :44:27. | :44:32. | |
meeting called by the honourable member from Argyll Bute and | :44:33. | :44:36. | |
sponsored by the Parliamentary human rights group. We have heard from | :44:37. | :44:43. | |
someone else in March. I want a page a bid to all of the honourable | :44:44. | :44:49. | |
members who have hosted these women witnesses who have come to give us | :44:50. | :45:00. | |
this testimony. I want to pay tribute to the honourable member for | :45:01. | :45:04. | |
Canon Valley who has such experience in this region. What we heard from | :45:05. | :45:12. | |
Nadi was that the Islamic State have one intention, to destroy the Yazidi | :45:13. | :45:19. | |
identity by force, rape, the recruitment of children and the | :45:20. | :45:23. | |
destruction of holy sites, especially against the Yazidi woman | :45:24. | :45:28. | |
whether use rape as a means of destruction, and ensuring that these | :45:29. | :45:31. | |
women will never return to normal life. It was not only me who | :45:32. | :45:35. | |
suffered, it was a collective suffering, she said. The Islamic | :45:36. | :45:40. | |
State given two choices, convert or die. The men were killed, women | :45:41. | :45:47. | |
enslaved and the children recruited. She went on to speak of the | :45:48. | :45:51. | |
desperate journeys that many people would try to make. When she appealed | :45:52. | :45:57. | |
to us, she appealed to us not just to make sure that we moved to | :45:58. | :46:00. | |
recognise the genocide that was happening to her people for what it | :46:01. | :46:06. | |
was, and for other minorities including Christians in Iraq and | :46:07. | :46:12. | |
Syria, she also asked us to open borders for my community. We are | :46:13. | :46:15. | |
victims of the genocide and we have the right to seek a safe race where | :46:16. | :46:18. | |
our dignity will be preserved. The request that you gave Yazidis the | :46:19. | :46:24. | |
choice to resettle, and other threatened minorities, especially to | :46:25. | :46:29. | |
the temp one on human trafficking, like Germany did. Nadi has written | :46:30. | :46:35. | |
to us only this week. Again she has asked us to take up these points, | :46:36. | :46:41. | |
not just in terms of recognising what they are suffering as genocide, | :46:42. | :46:46. | |
but also to ask that the UK would undertake a programme similar to | :46:47. | :46:52. | |
Germany, where a thousand women and girls were admitted for treatment | :46:53. | :46:56. | |
and counselling on special to your visas. -- 8,000 Yazidi woman. We | :46:57. | :47:08. | |
were told how thousands contemplated suicide because they knew when there | :47:09. | :47:10. | |
are being separated into different groups at three o'clock in the | :47:11. | :47:15. | |
morning in a sporting Hall in Mosul after a day of humiliated and | :47:16. | :47:22. | |
molested travel by bus, she knew what was happening. She told tire | :47:23. | :47:28. | |
after days of treatment like this a 17-year-old girl committed suicide | :47:29. | :47:33. | |
after she learnt that Daesh had killed her family, she cut her | :47:34. | :47:39. | |
wrists. In revenge the terrorists took her body and through to the | :47:40. | :47:45. | |
dogs. We know from what we have heard that this is genocide. We | :47:46. | :47:50. | |
should not be quibbling about this or hesitating. We know that the | :47:51. | :47:53. | |
depraved crimes are unspeakable but that should not mean that we should | :47:54. | :47:57. | |
not nameless for the genocide that it is. According to the UN, genocide | :47:58. | :48:05. | |
is deliberately inflicting conditions designed to bring about | :48:06. | :48:09. | |
the group's destruction, preventing births within the community or | :48:10. | :48:13. | |
forcibly transferring its children. We know that those who are | :48:14. | :48:17. | |
perpetrating these crimes are doing so to exterminate and extinguish a | :48:18. | :48:22. | |
people. We know that they mean what they are doing to be genocide and to | :48:23. | :48:28. | |
have all of the bloody awful consequences of genocide. We know | :48:29. | :48:31. | |
that those suffering these terrible crimes know that it is genocide and | :48:32. | :48:36. | |
it is meant as genocide. Why should we hesitate to say as a chamber we | :48:37. | :48:40. | |
know what the word genocide means we know it is being committed against | :48:41. | :48:46. | |
the Yazidi people? I agree with all of that and I want to follow one | :48:47. | :48:50. | |
directly from the speech given by my honourable friend the member for | :48:51. | :48:56. | |
Enfield Southgate. This is a vital motion. It is an important moment | :48:57. | :49:02. | |
for the Minister. We want no more weasel words. We want him to accept | :49:03. | :49:08. | |
this motion. We want to accept what we are calling for in this motion in | :49:09. | :49:14. | |
clear explicit terms, we call on the government to make an immediate | :49:15. | :49:18. | |
referral to the United Nations Security Council with a view to | :49:19. | :49:22. | |
comparing jurisdiction upon the International Criminal Court. The | :49:23. | :49:28. | |
attitude of the government up until now it has been based on precedents, | :49:29. | :49:33. | |
but I don't believe that precedent in this case is enough given the | :49:34. | :49:39. | |
horrors that are going on in the world. I would be delighted if the | :49:40. | :49:48. | |
Minister, he can intervene on me now, if the government are going to | :49:49. | :49:54. | |
accept this motion, then in the sense we have already won this | :49:55. | :50:00. | |
debate. There is absolutely no point, in the Minister reducing the | :50:01. | :50:06. | |
time that they are going to have the size to condemn Daesh, to mention | :50:07. | :50:11. | |
all of the appalling act that they are doing, then saying at the end of | :50:12. | :50:16. | |
that speech well I am very sorry but because of legal precedent, because | :50:17. | :50:20. | |
of this circle argument that my honourable friend preferred to, | :50:21. | :50:25. | |
because we the government think that it is for the courts to take the | :50:26. | :50:29. | |
initiative, that we don't think it is appropriate for the government to | :50:30. | :50:36. | |
take action. There is more than one person -- there is one person | :50:37. | :50:42. | |
waiting to play his part, the prosecutor of the International | :50:43. | :50:45. | |
Court waiting for the referral from the Security Council so he can | :50:46. | :50:48. | |
properly hold these people to account. My honourable friend the | :50:49. | :50:55. | |
Minister is sitting there, listening to what we are saying, he is likely | :50:56. | :50:59. | |
to give a strong and powerful speech, he will not just condemn | :51:00. | :51:04. | |
Daesh he will say, yes, we have listened to the debate, we have | :51:05. | :51:08. | |
listened to the House of Commons, we are going to act on the this to the | :51:09. | :51:13. | |
Security Council. Let's look at the facts, just in terms of pure legal | :51:14. | :51:22. | |
argument, which has nothing to do with a motion -- emotion. The | :51:23. | :51:32. | |
criteria set forth by the 1948 act on the prevention of genocide is | :51:33. | :51:38. | |
clear. The crime is being committed with intent to destroy in whole or | :51:39. | :51:43. | |
in part and national, ethnical, racial or religious group. It then | :51:44. | :51:50. | |
lists five qualifying conditions. Killing members of the group. | :51:51. | :51:54. | |
Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group. | :51:55. | :51:59. | |
Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of lives calculated to | :52:00. | :52:05. | |
bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part. Imposing | :52:06. | :52:10. | |
measures intended to prevent births within the group. Forcibly | :52:11. | :52:14. | |
transferring children of the group to another group. Now, it is | :52:15. | :52:20. | |
obviously clear, completely blatant, that conditions, the first three | :52:21. | :52:27. | |
conditions, are in effect and are going on in those areas under Daesh | :52:28. | :52:34. | |
control. It is vital to recall that even if just one of those conditions | :52:35. | :52:39. | |
is met the declaring of acts as genocidal is allowed. So on the | :52:40. | :52:45. | |
clearest legal criteria there is absolutely no doubt that genocide is | :52:46. | :52:52. | |
being committed. It is therefore the duty of Her Majesty's government, in | :52:53. | :52:57. | |
terms of humanity and not just in terms of legal arguments, to do its | :52:58. | :53:05. | |
duty now, to stop prevaricating and to refer this to the Security | :53:06. | :53:08. | |
Council and to accept this motion. It would be intolerable either for | :53:09. | :53:15. | |
the governments to whip against this motion and to force members of the | :53:16. | :53:21. | |
payroll to vote against their own conscience or abstain and it would | :53:22. | :53:26. | |
also be intolerable if the government by some sleight of hand | :53:27. | :53:32. | |
was to allow this motion to go forward and then to say that it was | :53:33. | :53:39. | |
not binding on the government. If this motion is passed today, and I | :53:40. | :53:43. | |
sincerely hope that neither the Minister will speak against it, nor | :53:44. | :53:47. | |
will the whips be putting in against that, if this motion is passed by a | :53:48. | :53:50. | |
love House of Commons has spoken. The House of Commons has spoken and | :53:51. | :54:00. | |
the Government should act. Let's be absolutely clear, there have been so | :54:01. | :54:05. | |
many powerful speeches, the most powerful of all given by the | :54:06. | :54:09. | |
honourable lady for Glasgow East. Why was it so moving? Why so | :54:10. | :54:15. | |
powerful? Because it is the explicit personal experience of somebody who | :54:16. | :54:22. | |
was talking about girls of nine years old being raped and killed by | :54:23. | :54:27. | |
this murderous cult. I myself have visited this area. Of all the | :54:28. | :54:32. | |
villages, the Christian villages I visited, 19 have been taken over by | :54:33. | :54:39. | |
Daesh, only one remains. We actually visited the tomb of a profit, and we | :54:40. | :54:44. | |
saw what he wrote. Your people are scattered on the mountains with | :54:45. | :54:48. | |
known to gather them in, and the gates of your land are wide open to | :54:49. | :54:53. | |
your foes. Enough is enough, I call on the Government to act. Thank you, | :54:54. | :55:00. | |
Madam Deputy Speaker. It was not my intention to speak in this debate, | :55:01. | :55:05. | |
because the speeches, as the honourable member for Gainsborough | :55:06. | :55:12. | |
said, has been so powerful, so poignant, so come howling, that I | :55:13. | :55:19. | |
felt I could not add very much. Except that I for many years | :55:20. | :55:23. | |
gathered evidence on Iraqi war crimes, and in this chamber for week | :55:24. | :55:27. | |
after week after week I argued that the prosecution -- I argued for the | :55:28. | :55:35. | |
prosecution for Iraqi war crimes for human rights abuses, crimes against | :55:36. | :55:41. | |
humanity and genocide. I am very happy to support this motion | :55:42. | :55:47. | |
tonight, because the case has been made over and over again. I also | :55:48. | :55:53. | |
raise the case of the Yazidis in September 20 14. I put forward an | :55:54. | :56:00. | |
early day motion at that time calling for action, saying that this | :56:01. | :56:03. | |
house is extremely concerned about the genocidal campaign being waged | :56:04. | :56:09. | |
against minorities in Iraq by Isis, due to alarming evidence recently | :56:10. | :56:14. | |
collected by Amnesty International about the brutal campaign to | :56:15. | :56:19. | |
obliterate all trades of non-Arabs and non-Sony macro Muslims which has | :56:20. | :56:23. | |
turned the area into blood-soaked killing fields. I have been shocked | :56:24. | :56:28. | |
by the barbaric treatment of Yazidis and so on. Many Yazidis, both in | :56:29. | :56:33. | |
northern Iraq itself, after some of the Peshmerga and the campaign for | :56:34. | :56:40. | |
human rights in northern Iraq, it actually rescued some of those women | :56:41. | :56:45. | |
and it ought them on the open market. They were calling them for | :56:46. | :56:51. | |
additional assistance from us. We have given humanitarian assistance, | :56:52. | :56:54. | |
I think we could have done much more. A lot of tears have been shed | :56:55. | :57:00. | |
about the Yazidis, but I would have liked to have seen much more | :57:01. | :57:07. | |
practical help given to the Peshmergas to assist in the | :57:08. | :57:14. | |
liberation of those thousands of women. And thousands of Yazidi women | :57:15. | :57:17. | |
are still captive, we should be aware of that and ready to give | :57:18. | :57:25. | |
whatever assistance. Can I stress the importance of collecting | :57:26. | :57:27. | |
evidence? I know the Minister has previously said when you are talking | :57:28. | :57:33. | |
about genocide, such matters are determined first in the | :57:34. | :57:38. | |
international courts, and in the United Nations Security Council. | :57:39. | :57:43. | |
We're helping to gather evidence which can be used to hold Daesh to | :57:44. | :57:51. | |
account. I hope we can tell them how we will collect the evidence. When I | :57:52. | :57:57. | |
collected evidence, it was over a seven-year period. We were not | :57:58. | :58:03. | |
assisted by our Government at that time. We had many macro from the | :58:04. | :58:09. | |
Americans and from the Kuwaitis, but we had to do it ourselves. We | :58:10. | :58:13. | |
collected at over seven years, and when Saddam Hussein and is the other | :58:14. | :58:22. | |
man were eventually brought to justice, it was on some of the | :58:23. | :58:25. | |
evidence that we collected. I would be grateful if the Minister could be | :58:26. | :58:30. | |
very precise about the way we are assisting in collecting that | :58:31. | :58:35. | |
evidence. Obviously that would be extremely important, as has been the | :58:36. | :58:40. | |
case for the Iraqis, and eventually we saw Saddam Hussein and others | :58:41. | :58:48. | |
convicted on the crime of genocide. And I hope that we will support this | :58:49. | :58:55. | |
motion today. I hope it is put to a vote, I think it is essential that | :58:56. | :58:59. | |
we make it clear that this is the view of this House of Commons | :59:00. | :59:06. | |
unbearable not be any more delay. I am very proud to be a signatory to | :59:07. | :59:12. | |
this motion today, so ably moved by my honourable friend for Congleton, | :59:13. | :59:15. | |
to whom rightful tributes have richly been paid. I would also like | :59:16. | :59:21. | |
to pay tribute to those members of the other place who have also made | :59:22. | :59:27. | |
an enormous contribution to this battle. The noble lord Lord Alton, | :59:28. | :59:35. | |
my noble friend Lord Forsyth, Baroness Cox and Baroness Mickelson | :59:36. | :59:40. | |
and many others. This is a big campaign across both Houses of | :59:41. | :59:44. | |
Parliament on behalf, as the honourable member for Ealing North | :59:45. | :59:49. | |
said, of the British people. The question we have to decide today is | :59:50. | :59:56. | |
has Daesh been, as it were, convicted by us of committing | :59:57. | :00:01. | |
genocide? The United States think so, that is the verdict of Congress | :00:02. | :00:08. | |
and Secretary of State Kerry. My honourable friend the Minister, who | :00:09. | :00:12. | |
will wind up in a few moments, that is his view, although that has been | :00:13. | :00:17. | |
tempered by his reference to the need for is to present evidence to | :00:18. | :00:21. | |
the United Nations for prosecutions to take place as so many others have | :00:22. | :00:28. | |
said. My view is that this debate today in this place, following the | :00:29. | :00:32. | |
debate that took place on the 3rd of February in the other place, shows | :00:33. | :00:37. | |
that the case that Daesh has been engaged in genocide has been made. | :00:38. | :00:43. | |
We have heard some very powerful testimonies. The honourable member | :00:44. | :00:47. | |
for Glasgow East, I think, captivated the house with what she | :00:48. | :00:51. | |
said. I nearly said my honourable friend, for Ealing North, but we are | :00:52. | :00:58. | |
very good friends. His evidence, too. And my honourable friend for | :00:59. | :01:03. | |
Gainsborough set out the legal conditions that apply under the 1948 | :01:04. | :01:11. | |
Convention. It seems to me that it cannot be the case that none of | :01:12. | :01:16. | |
those five conditions has not been met. It seems to me that those | :01:17. | :01:21. | |
conditions have been met fulsomely. Of course I give way. If this is not | :01:22. | :01:34. | |
genocide, then what is it -- what is genocide? I have not had the | :01:35. | :01:38. | |
privilege of meeting these people, as so many honourable members have, | :01:39. | :01:43. | |
but I'm extremely moved by the testimony that so many rate | :01:44. | :01:46. | |
honourable members have made today, and I am not sure how any normal | :01:47. | :01:51. | |
person listening to the debate today can possibly come to any other | :01:52. | :01:56. | |
conclusion that what has been going on has been genocide, is genocide, | :01:57. | :02:02. | |
to this day, that Christians, Yazidis and others are being wiped | :02:03. | :02:08. | |
out. That is, as so many people have said, the intention. It is not a | :02:09. | :02:12. | |
by-product of some of the policy, the intention is to wipe them out. I | :02:13. | :02:18. | |
wish to be brief, so I will conclude by saying that I think we have three | :02:19. | :02:25. | |
very powerful reasons why we should take action and why the Government | :02:26. | :02:31. | |
should listen. The first is that we are a permanent member of the United | :02:32. | :02:35. | |
Nations security Council. That is referred this matter to ourselves. | :02:36. | :02:40. | |
That should not be too difficult. We have an important role in the UN, we | :02:41. | :02:48. | |
should fulfil it. Secondly, to the great tragedy of this nation, it is, | :02:49. | :02:53. | |
unfortunately, our fellow citizens who are involved and steeped in | :02:54. | :03:00. | |
blood. They are competent in this genocide. We therefore have a locus. | :03:01. | :03:06. | |
Thirdly, we are a Christian country, these are fellow Christians being | :03:07. | :03:12. | |
persecuted, and I think that we cannot, as my noble friend Lord | :03:13. | :03:15. | |
Forsyth said in the other place, walk by on the other side. I think | :03:16. | :03:20. | |
we owe it to them to take action. As we will be reminding ourselves | :03:21. | :03:25. | |
tomorrow, we have a sovereign who is also the supreme Governor of the | :03:26. | :03:31. | |
Church of England. It is part of our country. I wish to conclude, Madam | :03:32. | :03:37. | |
Deputy Speaker, by referring to the words of Major General Tim Cross, my | :03:38. | :03:42. | |
own constituents, who has been giving evidence recently in the | :03:43. | :03:47. | |
other place. He said there can be no doubt that genocide has been carried | :03:48. | :03:51. | |
out on Yazidi and Christian communities, and the international | :03:52. | :03:56. | |
community's failure to recognise what is happening will be to our | :03:57. | :04:00. | |
collective shame in years to come. I hope that the Government will listen | :04:01. | :04:04. | |
to the collective view of the words of this house and of the other place | :04:05. | :04:11. | |
and act on behalf of the British people against this appalling | :04:12. | :04:14. | |
genocide taking place against our fellow Christians and so many | :04:15. | :04:20. | |
others. In 1994I was living a few hundred miles away from where nearly | :04:21. | :04:26. | |
a million people were killed in the course of three months in a genocide | :04:27. | :04:31. | |
in Rwanda. At that time, the international community, both before | :04:32. | :04:35. | |
the genocide started and after, was too slow to act and recognise this | :04:36. | :04:39. | |
crime against humanity, and as a result I believe more people died | :04:40. | :04:43. | |
than necessary. This is another such occasion when we have heard the | :04:44. | :04:47. | |
evidence, we need to say quite categorically that this is genocide, | :04:48. | :04:52. | |
we should recognise that now. If not now, when? | :04:53. | :04:59. | |
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. AI also begin by congratulating my | :05:00. | :05:03. | |
honourable friend the members Congleton for bringing this | :05:04. | :05:09. | |
important debate to the floor? Judging by the contributions we have | :05:10. | :05:12. | |
heard this afternoon, I don't think anybody can be in any doubt | :05:13. | :05:15. | |
whatsoever that this house believes that what has happened to the | :05:16. | :05:19. | |
Christian and Yazidi communities of northern Iraq and Syria is genocide. | :05:20. | :05:23. | |
What station have been involved in is genocide. We should not shy away | :05:24. | :05:28. | |
from describing it exactly is that -- what Daesh have been involved in. | :05:29. | :05:33. | |
There have been excellent contributions to the debate, I don't | :05:34. | :05:35. | |
have time to highlight every single one but, if I may point out one or | :05:36. | :05:40. | |
two macro particularly, the honourable member for Liverpool West | :05:41. | :05:45. | |
Derby, the chair of the International development committee, | :05:46. | :05:49. | |
bringing his considerable international weight to the debate | :05:50. | :05:52. | |
is very welcome. The honourable member for Eastbourne, who gave a | :05:53. | :05:56. | |
compelling case for this to be called genocide. The honourable | :05:57. | :06:01. | |
member four at the Fleet Southgate who told the Government that under | :06:02. | :06:05. | |
no circumstances would this be allowed to be brushed under the | :06:06. | :06:11. | |
carpet or forgotten and ignored. I, too, was extremely moved by the | :06:12. | :06:15. | |
contribution from my honourable friend the member for Glasgow East, | :06:16. | :06:19. | |
a very personal and moving testimony which I heard last night for the | :06:20. | :06:24. | |
first time, it was equally moving to hear it again this afternoon. And my | :06:25. | :06:27. | |
honourable friend the member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber, who chew a | :06:28. | :06:35. | |
para girl -- chew a parallel with Europe in the 1940s and what we are | :06:36. | :06:38. | |
currently with Singh in Syria and Iraq. -- what we are currently with | :06:39. | :06:45. | |
the sink. There were excellent contributions, much of it harrowing | :06:46. | :06:48. | |
and at times difficult to listen to, but it is important that the voices | :06:49. | :06:52. | |
heard. Because if we can do nothing else, then we owe it to the people | :06:53. | :06:56. | |
who have been the victims of Daesh barbarism, those who have been | :06:57. | :07:01. | |
subject to a level after property that sometimes defies comprehension. | :07:02. | :07:05. | |
And we had to hear what they had to say, we have to listen when a call | :07:06. | :07:10. | |
for help. And what is it they are asking of us? It is simply that this | :07:11. | :07:17. | |
government recognises what has happened to them and recognises that | :07:18. | :07:23. | |
it is genocide, and it refers their case to the United Nations Security | :07:24. | :07:29. | |
Council. So that the International criminal Court can bring those who | :07:30. | :07:31. | |
perpetrate these awful crimes to justice. I do not think that that is | :07:32. | :07:37. | |
too much to ask. And all the evidence is there. But what is | :07:38. | :07:41. | |
happening in Syria and Iraq and the areas under Daesh control is, | :07:42. | :07:43. | |
indeed, genocide. Sometimes there is a reluctance on | :07:44. | :07:58. | |
the part of the government to recognise genocide is taking place. | :07:59. | :08:06. | |
We have a moral obligation to say this is genocide. The Council of | :08:07. | :08:18. | |
Europe, the European Parliament, the United States Congress, the | :08:19. | :08:22. | |
Secretary of State, John Kerry, and his Holiness Pope Francis have all | :08:23. | :08:26. | |
recognised that this is genocide and it is time that we add our voice to | :08:27. | :08:33. | |
that list. It is the list -- the least we can do. Genocide is a crime | :08:34. | :08:38. | |
directed against a specific group of people because of what they are as | :08:39. | :08:42. | |
an entity. The murders that inevitably follow our direct did | :08:43. | :08:48. | |
against people not because of who they are as individuals, but because | :08:49. | :08:53. | |
they are a member of the group or a community. Genocide is not | :08:54. | :08:58. | |
spontaneous, it is calculated, it is organised and it is planned. | :08:59. | :09:03. | |
Genocide requires intent to bring about the destruction of the group | :09:04. | :09:07. | |
of people because of who they are or what they believe. It is this intent | :09:08. | :09:13. | |
to destroy that distinguishes genocide from other crimes. There | :09:14. | :09:18. | |
can be no doubt that Daesh's treatment of the Christian, Yazidi | :09:19. | :09:23. | |
and other minority religions meet that criteria. As Daesh separate | :09:24. | :09:30. | |
with the intent to set that any culture or religion that differs | :09:31. | :09:37. | |
from theirs. In the summer of 2014, Daesh seized the northern Iraqi city | :09:38. | :09:42. | |
of Mosul. Almost the entire Christian community fled for their | :09:43. | :09:48. | |
lives meaning for the first time in 1800 years there was no Sunday mass | :09:49. | :09:54. | |
seven that city. As they fled, the patriarch of Baghdad told the world | :09:55. | :09:57. | |
Christians have fled their villages, they are walking on foot in Iraq's | :09:58. | :10:04. | |
searing summer heat. They are facing catastrophe and a real genocide. As | :10:05. | :10:09. | |
we have heard, the overall fall in numbers of Christians living in Iraq | :10:10. | :10:16. | |
is alarming. In 2003 there were 1.5 million. Today, there are barely | :10:17. | :10:21. | |
250,000. It is a similar situation in Syria. All of this is part of a | :10:22. | :10:28. | |
deliberate strategic campaign of fear design to completely annihilate | :10:29. | :10:32. | |
minority religious groups from the Middle East. As the member for | :10:33. | :10:43. | |
Liverpool West Derby said, I was fortunate earlier this year to meet | :10:44. | :10:47. | |
a remarkable young Yazidi woman, Nadia. We met because of a | :10:48. | :10:56. | |
constituent of mine was up late one night with a child that couldn't | :10:57. | :11:00. | |
sleep and she heard on the radio the story that she heard, a story of a | :11:01. | :11:03. | |
teenage girl from Northern Iraq who have been kidnapped I Daesh. She was | :11:04. | :11:08. | |
so moved that what she heard that Fiona decided to do something about | :11:09. | :11:12. | |
it. She raised awareness of the plight of the Yazidi immunity, she | :11:13. | :11:18. | |
raised funds locally and she contacted me as a member of | :11:19. | :11:22. | |
Parliament. We organised for Nadia to come to the United Kingdom in | :11:23. | :11:27. | |
February. I know that members of both houses attended that meeting | :11:28. | :11:32. | |
and were all incredibly moved by her first-hand testimony. It was a | :11:33. | :11:38. | |
harrowing listen. If I could share a few sentences from what you told us. | :11:39. | :11:42. | |
She said we the women and children were taken by a bus to a school. | :11:43. | :11:46. | |
They humiliated us along the way, they touched us in a shameful way. | :11:47. | :11:52. | |
They took me to Mosul with 150 other Yazidi families. There were | :11:53. | :11:56. | |
thousands of families in the building, including children who | :11:57. | :12:00. | |
were given away as gifts. One of the men came up to me, he wanted to take | :12:01. | :12:06. | |
me. I look down at the floor I was terrified. On a laptop I saw a huge | :12:07. | :12:10. | |
man, he was like a monster. I cried out that I was too young. He kicked | :12:11. | :12:14. | |
me in BP. A few minutes later another man came up to me. I was | :12:15. | :12:19. | |
still looking at the floor. I saw he was smaller so I begged for him to | :12:20. | :12:23. | |
take me because I was terribly afraid of the first man. The man who | :12:24. | :12:26. | |
took me asked me to change my religion. I refused. He to me and | :12:27. | :12:32. | |
asked for my hand in what they called a marriage. A few days later | :12:33. | :12:35. | |
this man forced me to get dressed and put on make-up and on that night | :12:36. | :12:40. | |
he did terrible things. He forced me to serve in his military company. He | :12:41. | :12:45. | |
humiliated me dearly and he forced me to wear clothes that barely | :12:46. | :12:49. | |
covered my body. At night he beat me, he took my clothes off and put | :12:50. | :12:53. | |
me in a room with guards who proceeded to commit the crimes until | :12:54. | :12:58. | |
I fainted. Tragically, as we have heard in this place, Nadia's story | :12:59. | :13:05. | |
is far from unique. I too was the UN another woman gave her testimony | :13:06. | :13:13. | |
last night. Genocide is a deliberate and systematic extermination of fire | :13:14. | :13:19. | |
national, racial, political or cultural group. By any measure, what | :13:20. | :13:24. | |
Daesh have been doing to the Christian and Yazidi minorities in | :13:25. | :13:28. | |
Iraq and Syria is genocide. I urge the Minister to listen to the boys | :13:29. | :13:32. | |
of the people, listen to the voice of this House, remember the | :13:33. | :13:36. | |
barbarities suffered by the Christians and the temp three and | :13:37. | :13:39. | |
declare that this is a genocide. Then we can start the process of | :13:40. | :13:42. | |
bringing the perpetrators to justice. They Johnson. I would like | :13:43. | :13:50. | |
to start by congratulating the honourable for Congleton and the | :13:51. | :13:56. | |
members from Ross on Wye, Strangford, Stoke on Trent, and East | :13:57. | :14:02. | |
Ham on securing the debate today. And for all they have done to raise | :14:03. | :14:06. | |
this issue in a note of the house. I would like to personally thank the | :14:07. | :14:11. | |
honourable member for Congleton for arranging that evidence session last | :14:12. | :14:14. | |
night, although listening to the harrowing testimony, I think it | :14:15. | :14:20. | |
touched all members present. I would also like to pay tribute to those | :14:21. | :14:24. | |
members on the other players who have been raising this issue for | :14:25. | :14:28. | |
some time, led by my noble friend Baroness Kennedy. There have been | :14:29. | :14:32. | |
many excellent contribution in today's debate from both sides of | :14:33. | :14:37. | |
the house and it does appear to me that the house is united in its view | :14:38. | :14:40. | |
about what the government should do next. I want to start by saying | :14:41. | :14:44. | |
something about the nature of the crimes against the Yazidis and | :14:45. | :14:50. | |
others we have heard about today. We have heard from many members on all | :14:51. | :14:54. | |
sides, Daesh have perpetrated the most heinous of crimes against | :14:55. | :15:00. | |
Yazidis, as well as other ethnic and religious minorities, including | :15:01. | :15:04. | |
Assyrian Christians and various non-Sunni Muslim people in the area | :15:05. | :15:09. | |
of northern Iraq that they currently control. These crimes include mass | :15:10. | :15:16. | |
murder, torture, enslavement and unimaginable sexual violence, | :15:17. | :15:19. | |
including systematic rape, often of children. Just returning to what's | :15:20. | :15:27. | |
said last night in testimony, the thing that will stay with me is | :15:28. | :15:29. | |
hearing about that nine-year-old girl repeatedly gang rape to her | :15:30. | :15:35. | |
when her body could not take it, could not take the brutality of the | :15:36. | :15:39. | |
assault any more, she was murdered in the most horrific of | :15:40. | :15:43. | |
circumstances. These are crimes most of us will struggle to comprehend. | :15:44. | :15:47. | |
As we have heard today, these are not crimes that are being randomly | :15:48. | :15:52. | |
perpetrated. They are organised crime is deliberately targeted at | :15:53. | :15:58. | |
the typical -- particular ethnic or religious groups. Amnesty | :15:59. | :15:59. | |
International has described these act as ethnic cleansing on an | :16:00. | :16:08. | |
historic scale. Many members have preferred to the first-hand | :16:09. | :16:11. | |
testimonies that they have heard from survivors and those who have | :16:12. | :16:14. | |
worked directly with them. I would like to pay tribute to the | :16:15. | :16:19. | |
unbelievable bravery of all of the survivors who have spoken out to | :16:20. | :16:25. | |
alert the world to the plight of the Yazidi population. Leading survivors | :16:26. | :16:28. | |
has really brought home to me that this is not some historic event, it | :16:29. | :16:33. | |
is an ongoing atrocity affecting thousands of people. The plight of | :16:34. | :16:38. | |
those that is highlighted by this quote from someone who have 45 | :16:39. | :16:46. | |
relatives, all women and children, abducted I Daesh fighters. He | :16:47. | :16:52. | |
described the daily hell this situation has wrought. He said this, | :16:53. | :16:57. | |
can you imagine these little ones in the hands of those criminals? Alena | :16:58. | :17:01. | |
is barely three. Joe was abducted with her mother and her | :17:02. | :17:06. | |
nine-month-old sister and Rosalind, five, was at that but her mother and | :17:07. | :17:12. | |
her three brothers, aged eight to 12. We get news from some of them, | :17:13. | :17:16. | |
but others are missing and we don't know what they are alive or dead or | :17:17. | :17:20. | |
what has happened to them. This case is far from unique, which is why | :17:21. | :17:27. | |
this debate is so important. I want to move on to comment on the | :17:28. | :17:31. | |
specific definition of genocide. The there is no doubt that the crimes | :17:32. | :17:37. | |
that Daesh have committed are horrendous, the motion in front of | :17:38. | :17:40. | |
us ask us to consider if they reach the threshold of genocide. Genocide | :17:41. | :17:46. | |
is not a term we use often. It is a term we reserve for the most heinous | :17:47. | :17:50. | |
of crimes and it has a specific meaning. For a set of crimes to | :17:51. | :17:56. | |
constitute a genocide they must include the killing or serious harm | :17:57. | :18:01. | |
including sexual harm of a group of people who have a specific ethnic, | :18:02. | :18:07. | |
religious or racial card stick. The Labour Party has consistently argued | :18:08. | :18:11. | |
that the crimes committed by Daesh appear to reach this threshold and | :18:12. | :18:15. | |
therefore it is right for the UK's River Aire this matter to the UN | :18:16. | :18:19. | |
Security Council for a final determination. I am pleased to say | :18:20. | :18:26. | |
this evening that we will be supporting the motion in front of | :18:27. | :18:31. | |
us. And if this House passes the motion in front of us today, as I | :18:32. | :18:36. | |
hope we will do, it will be an historic moment. I have not been | :18:37. | :18:41. | |
able to find another instance where the House of Commons has formally | :18:42. | :18:46. | |
recognised an ongoing conflict as genocide and as we have heard, | :18:47. | :18:50. | |
similar emotions have already been passed in the US House of | :18:51. | :18:53. | |
Representatives and indeed European Parliament. In March, are United | :18:54. | :18:58. | |
Nations panel concluded that Daesh might have reached the threshold and | :18:59. | :19:01. | |
that the United States government announced that they consider the | :19:02. | :19:06. | |
actions of Daesh constituted a genocide. This is only the second | :19:07. | :19:11. | |
time that they have recognised an ongoing conflict as a genocide, as | :19:12. | :19:16. | |
well. I just want to turn to the protection for the Yazidis. The | :19:17. | :19:21. | |
designation of genocide is important, but not just because we | :19:22. | :19:24. | |
do it rarely, but it is important because it will show -- it shows the | :19:25. | :19:32. | |
intent to end the atrocities and to ensure that the perpetrators face | :19:33. | :19:36. | |
justice. I hope the Minister will be able to reassure some both of these | :19:37. | :19:40. | |
points and he responds. Firstly, the opposition would seek an assurance | :19:41. | :19:43. | |
that the government will recognise the wishes of the house if this | :19:44. | :19:49. | |
motion was passed this afternoon, and referred the matter to the | :19:50. | :19:54. | |
Security Council on the feral to the International Criminal Court. The | :19:55. | :19:57. | |
Minister told the house last week that the UK was assisting in the | :19:58. | :20:03. | |
collection of evidence. We welcome this. I would be grateful if the | :20:04. | :20:07. | |
Minister could layout in more detail the nature of what this technical | :20:08. | :20:13. | |
support will involve. I read honourable friends raised this | :20:14. | :20:20. | |
issue. Also, the issue about forensic investigative support and | :20:21. | :20:23. | |
how that will be provided. That was also raised by the chair of the | :20:24. | :20:29. | |
International Development Select Committee. Secondly, I want to ask | :20:30. | :20:32. | |
the Minister about the action of the UK is taking to protect the Yazidis | :20:33. | :20:37. | |
and other ethnic minority communities in Iraq. It is clear | :20:38. | :20:42. | |
that all states have a duty to prevent genocide, primarily this | :20:43. | :20:45. | |
responsibility sets with the state with a genocide is committed. | :20:46. | :20:49. | |
Tragically, her backers failed to protect the Yazidis and other ethnic | :20:50. | :20:53. | |
minorities citizens, therefore it is right that the UK and other states | :20:54. | :20:57. | |
offer support to Iraq in the fight against Daesh. Can the Minister | :20:58. | :21:02. | |
explained what specific action in the UK is taking to assist in the | :21:03. | :21:06. | |
protection of the Yazidis and offer them security? I want to press the | :21:07. | :21:10. | |
Minister on the humanitarian assistance given by the UK to the | :21:11. | :21:16. | |
survivors of the Daesh attack. Many Yazidis Allan Nyom refugee camps run | :21:17. | :21:20. | |
by the Kurdistan government in Northern Iraq. These people are not | :21:21. | :21:24. | |
classed as refugees by the United Nations because they are internally | :21:25. | :21:28. | |
displaced but we must recognise these people have been displaced | :21:29. | :21:32. | |
from their homes and they feel incredibly vulnerable. Will the | :21:33. | :21:36. | |
Minister explain what steps the government are taking to support | :21:37. | :21:39. | |
these people? It is important to note that none of these people that | :21:40. | :21:43. | |
we are discussing today are eligible for relocation to the UK under the | :21:44. | :21:49. | |
government scheme. I am extremely disappointed that the government has | :21:50. | :21:52. | |
consistently refused to offer sanctuary to any of these groups. I | :21:53. | :21:57. | |
think there are compelling arguments for recognising the special needs of | :21:58. | :22:00. | |
the survivors and the need they have to be given a safe space and | :22:01. | :22:05. | |
specialist psychiatric support. This is particularly true for the women | :22:06. | :22:08. | |
and children did. Already, Germany has done this and I met a few weeks | :22:09. | :22:14. | |
ago at Yazidi woman who had been enslaved and he had escaped and was | :22:15. | :22:18. | |
offered two years protection in Germany. This is the key, with | :22:19. | :22:23. | |
specialist psychiatric support. The Minister Romney said last week that | :22:24. | :22:27. | |
the German scheme required the woman to travel to Europe before they | :22:28. | :22:31. | |
could access the scheme. This is untrue. The German scheme takes | :22:32. | :22:36. | |
people from the region and they hope the Minister would reflect on what | :22:37. | :22:39. | |
Germany is doing and offer the same protection to victims of what I | :22:40. | :22:43. | |
think we all agreed to date his genocide. In conclusion, the people | :22:44. | :22:47. | |
of this country do not walk on by when they see evil being perpetrated | :22:48. | :22:53. | |
against fellow human beings and what is happening to the Yazidis and | :22:54. | :22:57. | |
others is evil. We want our country to stand up and declare solidarity | :22:58. | :23:01. | |
with these people and preferred what is happening to the Security | :23:02. | :23:04. | |
Council. We believe genocide is being committed and they hope the | :23:05. | :23:08. | |
whole house can come together this evening in supporting this motion | :23:09. | :23:09. | |
before us. Thank you very much, Madam Deputy | :23:10. | :23:22. | |
Speaker. This has been, I think, an excellent debate and, I'm afraid, | :23:23. | :23:28. | |
time prevents me from being to answer all the questions, and as I | :23:29. | :23:31. | |
have dinner on previous occasions I will write to honourable members in | :23:32. | :23:34. | |
detail. Some excellent ideas and thoughts have come through, such as | :23:35. | :23:38. | |
the protection of mass graves and the global boy for religious | :23:39. | :23:44. | |
freedom. I will be in touch on those matters -- the global envoy. Can I | :23:45. | :23:48. | |
congratulate the members the Congleton on securing this important | :23:49. | :23:55. | |
debate? I have listened, number ten has listened, indeed, the nation has | :23:56. | :23:59. | |
listened to the will of the chamber today, that is very important | :24:00. | :24:03. | |
indeed. I commend the efforts of members on all sides of the house | :24:04. | :24:07. | |
who have worked tirelessly to ensure that the voices of the murdered, | :24:08. | :24:11. | |
persecuted or silenced by Daesh are heard. The harrowing accounts we | :24:12. | :24:17. | |
have heard today of the brutal persecution of Christians, Yazidis | :24:18. | :24:20. | |
and other religious and ethnic minorities are heartbreaking. Some | :24:21. | :24:25. | |
of these communities have lived peacefully, side by side, for | :24:26. | :24:29. | |
generations before this barbaric organisation forced them to flee | :24:30. | :24:34. | |
their homes. Daesh's crimes go beyond the horrors of rape and | :24:35. | :24:38. | |
murder, they have destroyed a generations old culture. The | :24:39. | :24:43. | |
Government has repeatedly made it clear are at a condemnation of the | :24:44. | :24:48. | |
unspeakable crimes Daesh commits against Christians, Yazidis under | :24:49. | :24:52. | |
the communities, including Muslims, who still account for the majority | :24:53. | :24:55. | |
of victims. We are working tirelessly to defeat Daesh and put | :24:56. | :25:00. | |
an end to the violence. If this is not the first time I have commented | :25:01. | :25:04. | |
on this matter, it is now the third time, that I repeat what I said in | :25:05. | :25:09. | |
Foreign Office questions last week. I believe genocide has taken place. | :25:10. | :25:15. | |
But as the Prime Minister has said, genocide is a matter of legal rather | :25:16. | :25:18. | |
than political opinion. We as the Government are not the prosecutor, | :25:19. | :25:25. | |
judge or jury of such matters, they are for the UN security council. | :25:26. | :25:31. | |
However, we have a place... I will not give way. We have a place on the | :25:32. | :25:35. | |
UN Security Council, which is important, I will come to that in | :25:36. | :25:39. | |
due course. Any referral to the International criminal Court by the | :25:40. | :25:45. | |
UN security council will only be possible with a united council. And | :25:46. | :25:50. | |
ideally with the cooperation of countries in which alleged crimes | :25:51. | :25:56. | |
have been committed. But I draw the attention of the house, when efforts | :25:57. | :26:01. | |
were made to refer the situation in Syria to the ICC in 2014, it was due | :26:02. | :26:08. | |
to -- it was vetoed by Russia and China. We expect any Security | :26:09. | :26:15. | |
Council resolution seeking to refer the situations in Iraq or Syria to | :26:16. | :26:20. | |
the agency could be blocked again. But further discussions are taking | :26:21. | :26:25. | |
place, we are in a different place than in 2014. I will not give way. | :26:26. | :26:31. | |
Whilst a UN security Council referral to the International Crown | :26:32. | :26:36. | |
Court is one option, there are other potential options for bringing Daesh | :26:37. | :26:44. | |
to justice. In the meantime, we support the gathering and production | :26:45. | :26:48. | |
of evidence which could be used eventually and a quarter to hold | :26:49. | :26:53. | |
Daesh to account. I believe there is a strong case to be answered, but to | :26:54. | :26:58. | |
clarify how we must consider genocide itself, as other honourable | :26:59. | :27:00. | |
members have mentioned, this refers to the act is committed with intent | :27:01. | :27:06. | |
to destroy in whole or in part a national, ethical, religious or | :27:07. | :27:10. | |
racial group. We must also consider crimes against humanity, which | :27:11. | :27:16. | |
refers to acts committed as part of a widespread systematic attack | :27:17. | :27:21. | |
directed against any civilian population, including murder, | :27:22. | :27:25. | |
extermination, enslavement, deportation, imprisonment, torture, | :27:26. | :27:29. | |
rape, sexual slavery and other sexual violence. War crimes also | :27:30. | :27:34. | |
refers to grave breaches of the Geneva conventions. It may well | :27:35. | :27:41. | |
transpire that all three cases apply in this instance. That is why we | :27:42. | :27:46. | |
will do everything we can to help gather evidence that could be used | :27:47. | :27:50. | |
by the judicial bodies who are the appropriate people to judge these to | :27:51. | :27:55. | |
make a judgment on this matter. It is vital that this is done now | :27:56. | :28:01. | |
before evidence is lost or, indeed, destroyed because, ultimately, this | :28:02. | :28:05. | |
is a question for the courts to decide. It is not the government is | :28:06. | :28:09. | |
to be the prosecutor, the judge or the jury. As the Prime Minister also | :28:10. | :28:14. | |
said, not only are the courts best placed to judge criminal matters, | :28:15. | :28:18. | |
but there are impartial to you also ensures the protection of the UK | :28:19. | :28:21. | |
Government from the political eyes Asian and controversies that so | :28:22. | :28:31. | |
often are attached to the term of genocide. It is critical that the | :28:32. | :28:35. | |
decisions are based on credible judicial process. But it does not | :28:36. | :28:38. | |
mean we wash our hands up this issue. Right now, the priority has | :28:39. | :28:43. | |
been to prevent atrocities from taking place, which is why we are | :28:44. | :28:47. | |
playing a leading role in the global coalition against I should. -- | :28:48. | :28:54. | |
against Daesh. In the long term, we must hold Daesh to account for the | :28:55. | :28:58. | |
atrocities they are committing. The evidence were helping to gather now | :28:59. | :29:01. | |
will ensure that the perpetrators are these crimes will always note | :29:02. | :29:05. | |
that there is a threat of prosecution hanging over them. Make | :29:06. | :29:10. | |
no mistake, Madam Deputy Speaker, British and international justice | :29:11. | :29:13. | |
has a long reach and a long memory. We will track down those committing | :29:14. | :29:18. | |
these acts and told them to account, no matter how long it takes. -- and | :29:19. | :29:23. | |
hold them to account. It took over a decade to track down Radovan | :29:24. | :29:27. | |
Karadzic, but last month he was convicted and held to account for | :29:28. | :29:32. | |
his crimes. The UK is taking a lead on the international response to | :29:33. | :29:37. | |
this issue, in September 2040 we co-sponsored the UN human rights | :29:38. | :29:41. | |
Council resolution mandating investigation of Daesh abuses in | :29:42. | :29:46. | |
Iraq. Working with international is we are looking at ways to support | :29:47. | :29:50. | |
the gathering of crucial evidence which can be used by the courts to | :29:51. | :29:55. | |
hold a Daesh to account. We must ensure that Daesh are held to | :29:56. | :30:03. | |
account for thereby Boruc -- barbaric acts against minorities, | :30:04. | :30:10. | |
Christians, Yazidis, Kurds and other groups. The only way to put an end | :30:11. | :30:14. | |
to these crimes and to liberate the people of Iraq and Syria is to | :30:15. | :30:18. | |
defeat Daesh. We must continue to expose them for what they are, a | :30:19. | :30:22. | |
failing organisation losing territory and struggling to pay its | :30:23. | :30:31. | |
fighters, and betraying Islam with its doubtful. If you look at the | :30:32. | :30:35. | |
profile of any suicide bomber, as I said last week, from Bali to Sousse, | :30:36. | :30:40. | |
they are sold martyrdom by extremists as a fast track to | :30:41. | :30:44. | |
Paradise, to people who have scant knowledge about the Koran they are | :30:45. | :30:47. | |
promised a ticket to heaven with little or any understanding or | :30:48. | :30:55. | |
service to God. If we are to genuinely defeat extremism and we | :30:56. | :31:00. | |
must learn to size the importance of the duty to God in this life as well | :31:01. | :31:05. | |
as the next. -- all of us must emphasise. The Koran actually | :31:06. | :31:10. | |
forbids suicide. Madam Deputy Speaker, as has been said or implied | :31:11. | :31:15. | |
today, the UK has an aspiration and means to play a significant role in | :31:16. | :31:20. | |
world affairs. Our historical links, now forged into bilateral and | :31:21. | :31:24. | |
regional interests, mean we are expected to take not just an | :31:25. | :31:27. | |
interest but show leadership on the world stage. We are seen as flower, | :31:28. | :31:36. | |
knowledgeable and trustworthy. -- we are seen as fair. We are playing a | :31:37. | :31:44. | |
key role in defeating Daesh and its ideology on the battlefield, and | :31:45. | :31:47. | |
holding it to account for its terrible crimes. In the courts, no | :31:48. | :31:51. | |
matter how long it takes. Fiona Bruce. Thank you. At least 18 | :31:52. | :31:58. | |
back into members have spoken in this debate, all without exception | :31:59. | :32:01. | |
have not only supported the motion but have been deeply moving and | :32:02. | :32:08. | |
powerful in what they had said. We have heard irrefutable evidence | :32:09. | :32:13. | |
today of genocide by Daesh in Iraq and Syria. The case has been made. | :32:14. | :32:16. | |
We have heard no good ground for this not being referred to the UN | :32:17. | :32:23. | |
Security Council. The fact that other members of the UN Security | :32:24. | :32:26. | |
Council may veto a referral is no reason for our country not doing it, | :32:27. | :32:33. | |
and the fact that Russia and China vetoed a 2014 referral related to | :32:34. | :32:37. | |
general action and Syria, not on the specific point of genocide by Daesh, | :32:38. | :32:41. | |
should not stop this country from doing so now. Several members have | :32:42. | :32:47. | |
called for a vote. We should have won. We have heard many reasons why | :32:48. | :32:52. | |
this matter should be referred to the UN Security Council, we owe it | :32:53. | :32:56. | |
to the victims to seek justice for those who suffer, to show an | :32:57. | :33:00. | |
international lead, to be a voice for the voiceless, to hold the | :33:01. | :33:04. | |
perpetrators to account. Members, this vote and this motion are | :33:05. | :33:09. | |
simple. It asks the members of Parliament to recognise the genocide | :33:10. | :33:13. | |
that is taking place for what it is. Can anyone who has listened to the | :33:14. | :33:18. | |
debate today deny that? If there ever was a vote, which is a matter | :33:19. | :33:23. | |
of conscience, surely this is one? It is a matter of life and death. If | :33:24. | :33:28. | |
there ever was a vote which should be wholly free for members of this | :33:29. | :33:32. | |
place, surely this is one? Payroll members should not be being asked to | :33:33. | :33:36. | |
abstain. In spite of that fact and the fact that the members voting | :33:37. | :33:40. | |
will not be in the numbers they should we -- should be, I trust that | :33:41. | :33:45. | |
the Government will accept the will of the size and take action as this | :33:46. | :33:50. | |
motion stipulates, a motion which I hope will receive overwhelming | :33:51. | :33:52. | |
support from members across this house. The question is as on the | :33:53. | :34:01. | |
order paper, as many of that opinion say aye, of the contrary no. | :34:02. | :34:12. | |
Division! Division! Clear the lobby is! -- clear the lobbies! | :34:13. | :35:54. | |
Order! Order! The question is as on the order paper. As many of that | :35:55. | :36:03. | |
opinion say aye? Say aye? Of the country no? Tellers for the ayes, | :36:04. | :36:12. | |
David Warburton and Derek Thompson, I could Tomlinson and Kevin Foster | :36:13. | :36:13. | |
for the noes. -- Michael Tomlinson. The temp one to the right to hundred | :36:14. | :46:49. | |
and 78, the noes two to the left is, zero. | :46:50. | :46:59. | |
The ayes... The ayes to the right, 278. The noes to the left, none. The | :47:00. | :47:17. | |
ayes has it, the ayes has set. Unlock! We now come to the backbench | :47:18. | :47:29. | |
debate... Will close to intend to leave the chamber please do so with | :47:30. | :47:33. | |
some courtesy for those waiting for the next debate. We now come to the | :47:34. | :47:45. | |
backbench abates on record copies. James Graham to move the motion. I | :47:46. | :47:51. | |
beg to move the motion which appears in the order paper in my name and | :47:52. | :47:55. | |
the name of 43 colleagues from across the highs on all sides. The | :47:56. | :48:00. | |
effect of the motion would be that they would send a strong message to | :48:01. | :48:05. | |
the other place that the decision unilaterally to end the ancient | :48:06. | :48:09. | |
practice of using vellum to record the act of Parliament was not | :48:10. | :48:13. | |
accepted by this place and they hope the other house will listen | :48:14. | :48:16. | |
carefully to the views of this place if that was to occur. We have moved | :48:17. | :48:21. | |
from a matter of great significance... Order! It is most | :48:22. | :48:28. | |
discourteous of members to gather at the end of the chamber when somebody | :48:29. | :48:31. | |
is trying to make an important speech. I am most grateful. Whether | :48:32. | :48:40. | |
this speech can be described as important or not I am not certain | :48:41. | :48:44. | |
but I'm grateful for the flattering remarks. It is less importance than | :48:45. | :48:51. | |
the last debate. It was a matter of very grave concern to the world. | :48:52. | :48:55. | |
This is an important matter in the terms of symbolism. I do intend to | :48:56. | :49:05. | |
be reasonably brief, not least because the main arguments in favour | :49:06. | :49:11. | |
of saving vellum are laid out in an outstandingly good article this | :49:12. | :49:18. | |
week, in the house Magazine. Because it is printed on paper that those | :49:19. | :49:24. | |
arguments will disappear within a matter of the year or two. If it was | :49:25. | :49:29. | |
printed on vellum they would still exist in 5,000 years. It is | :49:30. | :49:35. | |
important that I should try to advance these arguments in the way | :49:36. | :49:39. | |
that future generations will be able to remember. I pay tribute to the | :49:40. | :49:44. | |
honourable lady from Washington and southern West who has fought this | :49:45. | :49:47. | |
battle for a long time, and to her Labour colleagues in 1999, the last | :49:48. | :49:53. | |
time it was raised, was resolute on it and defeated the House of Lords | :49:54. | :49:57. | |
on the matter. I pay tribute to my right honourable friends who was a | :49:58. | :50:02. | |
member of the government -- as a member of the government is probably | :50:03. | :50:06. | |
unable to speak in this debate, but there support for the last surviving | :50:07. | :50:11. | |
fellow manufacturers in his constituency, it is second to none. | :50:12. | :50:18. | |
Can I also say I would be the first to accept there are a great many | :50:19. | :50:23. | |
more important matters we should be discussing and I would not have | :50:24. | :50:27. | |
wished to do so were not for the fact that the House of Lords | :50:28. | :50:32. | |
unilaterally decided to discontinue it. All I am seeking to do with this | :50:33. | :50:36. | |
debate is assert our right as the House of Commons at least have a say | :50:37. | :50:40. | |
in this matter. It later on today there is division and if the motion | :50:41. | :50:45. | |
is defeated and if the House of Commons decides to agree with the | :50:46. | :50:49. | |
lordships to abolish the use of vellum, so be it, but it is writes | :50:50. | :50:55. | |
in this place that we have done throughout the generations, that we | :50:56. | :50:59. | |
should have our say about how our laws are recorded for future | :51:00. | :51:04. | |
generations. I don't know of my honourable friend is aware that as a | :51:05. | :51:08. | |
fellow member of the administration committee I have changed my views on | :51:09. | :51:13. | |
this matter. I know very much agree with my honourable friend, I think | :51:14. | :51:19. | |
it would be a false economy and I think this is a petition which we | :51:20. | :51:24. | |
must dash at tradition that we must hang onto and cherish. It takes a | :51:25. | :51:28. | |
big politicians to say they have changed their minds. My honourable | :51:29. | :51:34. | |
friend is indeed a big politician. I pay tribute to him. There are three | :51:35. | :51:37. | |
broad arguments advanced by those who would abolish the use of vellum. | :51:38. | :51:41. | |
Each of which is easily dealt with. The main one being the cost of using | :51:42. | :51:46. | |
vellum to record Acts of Parliament. The House of Lords has said, it is | :51:47. | :51:52. | |
alleged that the cost of printing onto vellum comes to ?300,000 a | :51:53. | :52:01. | |
year, and paper would be ?30,000 per year, saving ?70,000 a year -- 100. | :52:02. | :52:08. | |
year, and paper would be ?30,000 per year, saving ?70,000 a year -- -- | :52:09. | :52:10. | |
?100,000 a year. And part of my research I have been in touch with | :52:11. | :52:15. | |
an authority on these matters. He tells me that printing on vellum is | :52:16. | :52:20. | |
precisely identical in cost of printing on paper and the cost of | :52:21. | :52:26. | |
printing the laws of this land are approximately ?56,000 per annum. The | :52:27. | :52:31. | |
cost of vellum being relatively small on top of that. So, the saving | :52:32. | :52:35. | |
by changing to paper would be at rest maybe ?10,000 ?20,000 a year. | :52:36. | :52:43. | |
William Connolly and Sons, the last manufacturers, tell us the most they | :52:44. | :52:47. | |
have ever been paid per annum is ?47,000 and that's was the year that | :52:48. | :52:52. | |
we had too many laws in this place so cost more to print them. If we | :52:53. | :52:57. | |
kept ourselves under control and displays the cost we would be them | :52:58. | :52:59. | |
would be even less than ?47,000. Subtitles will resume on | :53:00. | :53:13. | |
'Wednesday In Parliament' at 2300. | :53:14. | :53:24. |