20/04/2016 House of Commons


20/04/2016

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THE SPEAKER: Urgent question, Andy Burnham. To ask the Home Secretary

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to make a statement setting out the details of the Border Force budget

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for 2016-17. Home Secretary. Thank you, Mr Speaker. The first piracy of

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a Government is the safety and security of citizens. The Government

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has was "The UK border priority and we will never compromise on keeping

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the people of this country safe from terrorism, criminals he headed eagle

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immigration. The Chancellor of the Exchequer will publish the Treasury

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main supply estimates in just over an hour's time. That will set out

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allocations for the whole of Government, including Border Force,

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for the 2016-17 financial year. In advance of those figures, I can

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inform the House that these estimates will show the indicative

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budget for Border Force is ?558.1 million in 2016-17, a 0.4% reduction

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in the overall resource ending, compared to the 15-16 supplementary

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estimate. At the same time, increase capital spending on the border by

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just over a 17%, from 40.1 only in pounds in 2015-16, to an estimated

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?68.3 million, in 2016-17. That means Border Force painting, drawing

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tents and purposes, is protected, compared to 2015-16. With increased

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capital investment to improve the technology of the border, to improve

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security and intelligence and strengthen control. Over the next

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four years, we will invest ?130 million in Saint of the art

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technology of the border. Since I became Secretary, we have engaged in

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an ambitious programme to keep this country safe and reform the Borders.

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We abolish the dysfunctional UK Border Agency in the last

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Parliament, set up by the last Labour Government, and made Border

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Force directly accountable to ministers within the Home Office.

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Since then, Border Force has transformed its working practices,

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command and control and leadership and we have invested in new

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technology, like heartbeat monitors at freight ports. This improves

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security and prevent illegal entry to the UK. It benefits passengers

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and delivers efficiency. At the same time, effort closely with my French

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counterpart, Bernard Cazeneuve, to secure the juxtaposed controls in

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Calais and reduce the number of migrants attempting to reach the UK

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and safeguard drivers and hauliers travelling through those ports. We

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have developed a robust and intelligence led approach to

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organised crime at the border, working closely with the National

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Crime Agency we established in 2012. We have supported greater

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calibration between counter terrorism police and Border Force,

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while increasing counter terrorism budgets, to prevent foreign fighters

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returning and dangerous terrorists travelling to the UK. These reforms

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are working. Order security has been enhanced, Border Force continues to

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form 100% checks on scheduled passengers arriving at primary

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checkpoint in the UK, where passengers are deemed a threat to

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the safety, we can and do exclude them from the UK, and in total,

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99,000 people have been refused entry to the UK since 2010. We are

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disrupting more organised crime in the UK border than ever before. In

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the past year, Border Force seized nearly eight tonnes of Class A

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drugs, more than 2.5 times as much as in 2009-10. Meanwhile, legitimate

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passengers and hauliers of goods continue to be provided with

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excellent levels of service. The Government remains committed to

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making further investment were necessary, to exploit technology and

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strengthen controls, and in doing so, Border Force will grow more

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efficient, year-on-year, while improving security for the safety of

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citizens, businesses and the country as a whole. Andy Burnham. Finally,

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Mr Speaker, an answer. From the Home Secretary. And, yet another U-turn.

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Let's be clear, it is Labour pressure that has brought her to

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this House today and Labour pressure that has made her back down on her

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planned deeper cuts to the UK border. Just as they forced her to

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U-turn on police funding, we have now forced her to U-turn on the

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Border Force budget. She has spent the last two weeks ducking and

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diving, refusing to answer questions that I put her in this House and on

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the chair of the Home Affairs Select Committee, put to her by senior

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officials. I pay tribute to his determination. Why cannot she answer

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our questions? She has been furiously backpedalling for the last

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two weeks, patching up holes in the budget. Let's be clear, about what

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has just been announced. She has just announced it has, a cut, a

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renewed cut to the Border Force budget. And let me put it into

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context, she has announced the budget of ?558 million, in 2012-13,

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the budget was ?617 million. So, the budget is done by over ?50 million,

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on her watch. That is this Home Secretary's record on border

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funding. How can she justify at? When the terror threat has been

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increasing all the time? Will she guarantee, on the back of the budget

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announced today, that there will be no cuts to front-line immigration

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officers, nor will they be replaced with less trained staff? But the

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bigger question is, whether the budget she has announced is anywhere

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near enough? Today, a group of the most eminent police and

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counterterrorism experts have written an open letter, saying

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attacks in Paris and Brussels must be a wake-up call for the British

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Government on lax border security. Worryingly, the letter reveals that

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the National Crime Agency has evidenced that people traffickers

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are now specifically targeting weaker seaports, as I have

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repeatedly warned her. Though she accept the call from this group of

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experts for a review of border security and for extra resources to

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plug the gaps? Those gaps are very real, a whistle-blower working at

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the port of Immingham, the country but my largest breadboard, has been

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in touch with me to reveal that the staff of ferry companies carrying

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out her border exit checks are simply not trained to do it, the

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passports of lorry drivers are not checked on arrival by anyone and

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worst of all, school leavers are now being recruited to check passports,

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replacing experienced border officers. Border security on the

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cheap. This is the reality of what is happening in Britain's Borders

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today under this Home Secretary. It is the direct consequence of cuts

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that she has already made to the UK border in her time in office and

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unbelievably, she wanted to make even further cuts to the UK border,

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before we, on the side of the House, stopped her. She has spent the last

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two weeks running scared, scrabbling for loose change behind the back of

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the Home Office over, but worse, she has weakened our borders. Damaged

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security and has only now pledged to stop the cuts. On an issue of such

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importance to the British public, she is going to have to do a lot

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better than this. Home Secretary. Well, I have to say to the right

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honourable gentleman, that in so much of what he is said, he said he

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does not know what he is talking about. He talks about U-turns on

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funding. The only U-turn on funding we have seen is Labour front bench

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that claims now to have wanted police funding to remain steady and

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not be cut, when they were actually suggesting that police funding would

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take 10% cuts. He has talked about border security and the National

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Crime Agency. I might comment him that it was the last Government, the

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Coalition Government and me as Home Secretary, who set up the National

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Crime Agency. The reason we have a border command that is looking at

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serious and organised crime across our borders is because of what the

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Conservatives have done in Government. Labour did none of that

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in 13 long years. The old gentleman was at one time a

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Home Office minister. -- honourable gentleman. It was under the last

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Labour government that the border had no operating mandate. People

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came through the primary checkpoints and were not getting the what --

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100% checks the need. We have enhanced security and will continue

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to do so. My constituents in Kettering are very concerned about

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our borders. Whilst it is true that many illegal immigrants are stopped

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in lorries in France and on arrival in Britain, far too many illegal

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immigrants are still on the backs of lorries when they pass Kettering.

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What more can the Home Secretary do to reassure my constituents were

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going to get even tougher to stop illegal immigration which also has a

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security implication? He is right. It is important we continually

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review the processes we have in place to screen people as they come

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across-the-board and to ensure we are stopping the people who want to

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come here as illegal immigrants. That is why we have invested tens of

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millions of pounds in security at Calais to ensure it is harder for

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people to get into lorries and harder to access the Eurotunnel. It

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is why we are continuing to look at improvements in technology that may

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enable us to bring into place equipment which is better at

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detecting for people are trying to store away in the sorts of vehicles.

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This is not something you do as a one-off. You need to keep rowing

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that. This has been a sorry saiga and it is still not quite clear why

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the civil servant was so evasive before the committee. What was the

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hold-up? This requires careful scrutiny and attracts public

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interest. What will she do to ensure the process is more transparent?

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Fantasy net migration target and cuts to the budget leave the Home

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Office down the path of targeting exactly the wrong people, using the

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wrong policy leaders. Unable to properly enforce existing rules, the

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Office is introducing evermore Draconian rules to clamp down on

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skilled workers, students and spices. My colleagues saw with my

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own eyes how vulnerable children who have family in the UK are left in

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terrible conditions in Dunkirk. When will she fixed her Budget not to

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suit the ideological percent of budgets? She has mixed up

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the issues of border checks and emigration which are different

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issues. I would remind her she comments on the appearance of a

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senior civil servant in front of the select committee. The individual

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replied we know what force -- what the force needs for the year. She

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referred to the question she has raised previously and other members

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of the size of raised about the speed at which those people who are

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in Calais, children have family members in the UK being processed.

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We recognise it was an issue and that is why we have succumbed it

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someone to the Ministry of the Interior in Paris to work on this.

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It is why there are seen people being processed in weeks rather than

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months, and in some cases in days. That there's nothing worse in the

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bash this House than the manufacture of rate.

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It is not through lack of thoroughness that any drugs or

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people are getting through. Will she acknowledged the need to be more

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flexible as increasing cases of independent vessels come across the

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Channel to Sussex and Kent in particular? We must be mindful of

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that. Thank him for his remarks. I echo the comments he has made.

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Border force staff work day in and day out. As we make ports like

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Calais more secure, the Immigration Minister has been talking to our

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Belgian and Dutch counterpart about access from those ports into the UK.

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The whole point of some of the changes we have made is to make it

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more flexible so it can respond to the need as it arises. Can I thank

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the Home Secretary for the detail she has provided today? Can I praise

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the work of the border force, especially the leadership provided

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by Sir Charles Montgomery. Last week, the honourable member for

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Gainsborough and today the Member for Kettering made comments. Can she

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confirmed there are 100% checks on every lorry entering this country?

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In order to deal with security and immigration issues. Although we have

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spent a huge amount of money in Calais, we have displaced this

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problem into other European ports. Without partners doing their bit, we

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will still get people coming into this country who should not be here.

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The right honourable gentleman referred to questions from the

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sustenance but also from the Member for Gainsborough. The point I have

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made subsequently outside of this chamber is that we undertake checks

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on lorries, but those checks vary. Front technology is used and

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sometimes dogs. The right honourable gentleman is right. As I have

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indicated in my response previously. It is necessary for us to be looking

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at where there may be displacement of people trying to enter the UK

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illegally. That is what we have been doing with the government in Belgium

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and the Netherlands. Has my right honourable friend been able to

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reinstate the cuts which were made in January this year by border force

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to the maritime aerial surveillance capability? Which is crucial in

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detecting people who are trying to smuggle into our country, and indeed

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was instrumental in ensuring some of the successes to which she referred

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earlier? I can reassure him that we are maintaining the capabilities he

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talks about, but we happened to be delivering them in a different way.

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He and I have discussed this previously. Was a particular

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contract that is no longer in place. Border force has looked to see how

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it can work in a variety of ways, including working with the Royal

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navy. Last year an asylum seeker was located in my constituency. He

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subsequently committed crimes and is imprisoned. My constituents have the

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burden of taking 500 asylum seekers. What moves is she making to ensure

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there is a fairer distribution across the UK? I believe there are

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none in the Prime Minister's constituency and none in the

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Chancellor's constituency. 509. My constituency is not somewhere that

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normally takes asylum seekers. I am pleased to say they are taking some

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of the Syrian refugees. We talk regularly with local authorities

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about where it is appropriate for asylum seekers to be dispersed to.

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Those commerce stations continue. A number of new local authorities have

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come on board. We have not changed the system of a silent dispersal. It

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is the same that is run by the last Labour government. Millions of

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pounds could be saved for the border force budget by having a more

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efficient removal system. What steps will my right honourable friend be

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taking in light of the findings of the independent Chief inspector of

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Borders in immigration contained in his report issued last month? We of

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course continually look at how we can improve our ability to remove

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people from this country. That is why we have brought forward changes

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in a variety of Immigration Bill is to enhance our ability to remove

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people and particularly to make it harder for people to live here

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illegally in the United Kingdom. Decisions that were put through in

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the last Immigration Bill put through to deal with people in terms

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of their access to driver licensees, bank accounts and rented property

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are all having an impact. How many more staff could be deployed to

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police our borders of the government were to scrap the landlords helpline

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and use that resource instead to more securely police our borders? I

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have to say to the right to rumble gentleman that if what he wants us

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to have the security of this country improved, the measures we have put

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in place through the immigration act are having an impact. Would she

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agree that the reality is the UK has the strongest borders in Europe

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partly because of the government's investment in technology in our

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borders, and partly because of this party's from position we should not

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join the Schengen system? I think at is crucial. By not joining the

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Schengen system, we maintain control at our borders. People working in my

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constituency are concerned about security regarding large transporter

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ships. There have been humanitarian concerns. Can she is sure my

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constituents that the port in Grimsby is adequately protected? We

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look at border security at ports on a regular basis. She refers to the

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humanitarian issue in relation to people who may be being smuggled

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across-the-board in transporters. The people responsible for that

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shamanic healing issue are the traffickers who put illegal

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immigrants into those containers. There was praise for my right

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honourable friend. She was accused of both backpedalling and performing

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a U-turn. Could I ask my right honourable friend what role she sees

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the investigation powers bill currently before the house in

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strengthening the work of border force? It is important that we are

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able to access the various tools and power is needed. That is why the

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investigatory Powers Bill is so important. I note that in the letter

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to Peter Graff today, the Shadow Home Secretary mentioned the

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importance of access to communications data. That is what we

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are trying to protect in the Bill. It took almost 25 minutes to get

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through the border at Gatwick Airport. There were 15 desks for

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staff and all me eight people working. What kind of message does

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it send about the welcome to the United Kingdom and how will this

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budget help to remedy those kind of inefficiencies?

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There are enforced standards and we meet those standards. I also say to

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him, it is very interesting that the debate we are having today, people

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are asking for more port security and then others are saying they want

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to get through rather more quickly. The honourable gentleman always

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looks to be a happy chappie. The Shadow Home Secretary is right to

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draw attention to the port of Immingham, in my constituency.

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Border staff there have concerns. The concerns of residents have been

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heightened following reports that the National Crime Agency

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acknowledged that ports are being targeted. Can we receive assurances

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that there are moves to protect the Humber ports? The point of my

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honourable friend makes is important. I have responded to this

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in a number of questions, including to the right honourable gentleman,

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the chairman of the Home Affairs Select Committee. We have made

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changes to Border Force, and one of those changes was to introduce

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greater flexibility, to be able to move resources around the country.

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This is crucial, so you don't just have static forces at a number of

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ports. But you are able to move when you see the need to do so. That is

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exactly what we're doing in relation to the ports on the east coast, one

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of which he cited. Northern Ireland is the only part of the UK with a

:24:37.:24:41.

land border with another country. Both the UK and the republic lie

:24:42.:24:45.

outside showing and, therefore corporation is key. Last week, a

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representative said they felt they are hopelessly ill-equipped and will

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resort to stand against the threat of terrorists entering the UK

:24:56.:24:59.

through Irish borders. Can the Home Secretary give any comfort, as to

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whether this budget will help make that vulnerable access point to the

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UK less so? I can reassure the honourable gentleman that we are in

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regular discussion with the Irish Government about how to improve the

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security of their external border, because, obviously, as he refers to,

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there is a common travel area between Ireland and the UK. We have

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done a lot of work with the Irish Government in terms of data sharing

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and the sort of systems that might be available for support. We

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continue to do so. In contrast to earlier comments, I would like to

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pay tribute to the hard work and dedication of Border Force officers

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at Gatwick. Particularly in terms of apprehending some recent terror

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suspects. Can I get assurances that they will continue to get the

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support they need from the Home Office? I can give that assurance.

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We now have a Border Force that is more flexible and able to use its

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resources appropriately and we continue to do so. We are looking to

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make sure resources are appropriate at the various ports, commensurate

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with the traffic those ports received. He rightly praises the

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Border Force officers at Gatwick, who do a great job, as do officers

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elsewhere. When will she make a statement on allegations that under

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her watch, terrorists where allowed to preach this country's border

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security? I would say that of course, in terms of border security

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and stopping people crossing the border, what is important is not

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just that you have a border control, as we do, by not being a member of

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the Schengen border free zone, but also that the information is

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exchanged between parties when that information is available. That is

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exactly what we are working on, to ensure information is available at

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our borders when we want to be able to stop people. I don't think she

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has yet fully answered the question put to her by the chair of the Home

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Affairs Select Committee, regarding checks on trucks. I accept the issue

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of flexibility, different things in different places. But there is

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genuine concern in up and down the country about levels of security.

:27:38.:27:41.

How does the cumulative cuts in the revenue budget of the Border Force,

:27:42.:27:47.

how a compatible with providing the level of security necessary? On the

:27:48.:27:52.

last point, I have to say to the Labour Party, it is not about how

:27:53.:27:59.

much money you have, but about how you spend it and that you use it

:28:00.:28:05.

effectively and efficiently. The introduction of an operating

:28:06.:28:09.

mandate, so that at primary checkpoints, that are 100% checks

:28:10.:28:14.

being undertaken of individuals, that is something the Government

:28:15.:28:17.

introduced that the last Labour Government did not introduce. All

:28:18.:28:23.

the trucks going through juxtaposed controls are indeed screamed. Over

:28:24.:28:30.

Easter, a number of my constituents were frustrated at Manchester

:28:31.:28:33.

Airport, where they were queueing to go through passport control because

:28:34.:28:40.

that passport control was significantly under resourced. What

:28:41.:28:42.

reassuring scanned the Home Secretary give that Manchester

:28:43.:28:49.

Airport, which is, after all, the largest International Airport

:28:50.:28:52.

outside of London, we have adequate resource at passport control. Can

:28:53.:28:58.

she also looked at the loophole at terminal three, whereby passengers

:28:59.:29:01.

who transit from Heathrow and have their baggage sent directly through

:29:02.:29:07.

to Manchester don't actually have to go through a customs check? The

:29:08.:29:15.

honourable gentleman has asked me about resources for Manchester

:29:16.:29:19.

Airport. I can assure him that we regularly have discussions with

:29:20.:29:21.

Manchester Airport about the traffic going through, about the

:29:22.:29:27.

requirements they have, and judge the resources that are put for

:29:28.:29:31.

Border Force appropriately. We fully recognise the significance of

:29:32.:29:42.

Manchester Airport. A recent watchdog study into Border Force at

:29:43.:29:46.

Manchester Airport showed that one in four passengers got through the

:29:47.:29:51.

border inappropriately. A whole Ryanair flight was recently missed,

:29:52.:29:56.

with a passengers, who suffered no checks whatsoever. ?1.5 million was

:29:57.:30:03.

spent on sniffer dogs. Now terrorists or Class A drugs have

:30:04.:30:06.

been discovered. And we suffer in terminable delays for business

:30:07.:30:11.

passengers and terrorists. The airport is suffering because of a

:30:12.:30:14.

lack of investment in Border Force. You may have protected the budget

:30:15.:30:17.

but it is not making any improvement whatsoever in a very poor existing

:30:18.:30:21.

service. What does the Home Secretary said? As Manchester

:30:22.:30:30.

Airport expands, we discuss with them what resources are necessary.

:30:31.:30:36.

He referred to a misdirected flight, that is an issue we had taken up

:30:37.:30:41.

with Manchester Airport, in terms of the staff they have on the ground,

:30:42.:30:45.

in relation to the way they deal with flights. We take that

:30:46.:30:56.

seriously. I echo commendations made by others towards the excellent work

:30:57.:30:59.

done by border staff but numbers are also important. Order. A rather

:31:00.:31:08.

unseemly exchange going on between the honourable gentleman who put

:31:09.:31:10.

forward a question and was dissatisfied with the answer and the

:31:11.:31:16.

honourable member for Northampton North, who always feels compelled to

:31:17.:31:19.

display a level of fealty unsurpassed by any other member of

:31:20.:31:26.

the House of Commons. That is not necessary. We all know the fealty,

:31:27.:31:32.

bordering upon the obsequious edges on display from the honourable

:31:33.:31:39.

gentleman. But this must not be allowed to interrupt the flow of

:31:40.:31:50.

other members. The opposition, the right honourable member opposite,

:31:51.:31:57.

received a report saying that 30,000 Border Force was the right number in

:31:58.:32:02.

order to protect our borders. Is that still the policy of the

:32:03.:32:07.

Government? Can the Home Secretary tell us how many border staff there

:32:08.:32:13.

are currently? The report he refers to proposed the creation of an

:32:14.:32:16.

entirely new police force at the borders. When we look to what was

:32:17.:32:21.

necessary, we decided to approach the issue in a different way, and we

:32:22.:32:25.

created the National Crime Agency and a specific border command within

:32:26.:32:29.

the National Crime Agency. Staff operating at borders are not just

:32:30.:32:33.

Border Force, but border command from National Crime Agency, special

:32:34.:32:38.

Branch at ports and of course, they work with immigration enforcement.

:32:39.:32:42.

So, we have for the first time in this country, a specific border

:32:43.:32:46.

command within the National Crime Agency. Order. Presentation of Bill,

:32:47.:32:56.

Mr Frank Field. I2-mac property ownership in London, registration.

:32:57.:33:06.

We now come to the ten minute rule motion. I beg to move the leave to

:33:07.:33:16.

be given the right to bring in the bill regarding forensic linguistics

:33:17.:33:22.

analysis and accepted techniques and for connected purposes. Our children

:33:23.:33:26.

and young people face an enormous threat from being groomed by radical

:33:27.:33:31.

extremists and paedophiles. It is facilitated by the internet, social

:33:32.:33:37.

media and mobile technology. This bill is about the protection of

:33:38.:33:42.

vulnerable people. It is about the monitoring and analysing of

:33:43.:33:46.

communications between people we need to be concerned about. People

:33:47.:33:51.

who plot and scheme to do harm to others. People such as paedophiles

:33:52.:33:55.

and extremists. People who use modern technology as a tool in their

:33:56.:34:01.

evil business. Mr Speaker, last October, I led a Westminster debate

:34:02.:34:06.

on the use of children as suicide bombers. We know that many of the

:34:07.:34:10.

techniques used in recruiting children are the same as those used

:34:11.:34:16.

by paedophiles. We also know that there is software available that

:34:17.:34:20.

will identify the messages and language of groomers and using a

:34:21.:34:26.

variety of tools, we can match these to voice language patterns of known

:34:27.:34:31.

individuals. Forensic linguistics is a complicated field. It is

:34:32.:34:34.

relatively new and linguistic evidence can include signs, social

:34:35.:34:43.

science and interpretation. Forensic linguistic analysis requires a

:34:44.:34:47.

complex set of knowledge and skills. Presently, however, anyone,

:34:48.:34:53.

including you or I, Mr Speaker, can proclaim themselves to be an expert

:34:54.:34:59.

in forensic linguistics. Subsequently, there is a

:35:00.:35:02.

considerable danger that in a court of law, substandard analysis can be

:35:03.:35:08.

offered. What we need is a standardised qualification for the

:35:09.:35:12.

analysts and a standardised set of techniques that will give the courts

:35:13.:35:16.

me confidence to accept evidence as more than just interesting

:35:17.:35:23.

background. This bill does not call for sophisticated legislation. It

:35:24.:35:29.

would be relatively straightforward for a statutory register to be

:35:30.:35:34.

compiled. The register this bill calls for would not need it own

:35:35.:35:39.

regulator. One already exists. The forensic science regulator. This is

:35:40.:35:46.

already working to include speech and audio analysis as a recognised

:35:47.:35:53.

speciality area. But as textual linguistic analysis draws an

:35:54.:35:59.

interpretive as well as scientific methods, this falls outside the

:36:00.:36:03.

current agreement. I also draw attention to current codes of

:36:04.:36:07.

practice and conduct for forensic science providers and practitioners,

:36:08.:36:11.

and more generally for expert witnesses in the criminal justice

:36:12.:36:16.

system, which could be adapted to include the practice of forensic

:36:17.:36:23.

linguistics. There are academic institutions with authority in this

:36:24.:36:30.

area, such as the Centre for forensic linguistics at Aston

:36:31.:36:34.

University. At this point, I would like to personally thank the

:36:35.:36:39.

director of this centre, Professor Tim Wright, for his help in

:36:40.:36:43.

developing this bill. I am also grateful for encouragement from the

:36:44.:36:47.

president of the chartered Society of Forensic Science Service and the

:36:48.:36:52.

director of forensic services in Scotland, Mr Tom Nelson. The

:36:53.:36:57.

standard of specialist witnesses and indeed forensic scientists

:36:58.:37:07.

themselves is inherently... I know of people who: sells forensic side

:37:08.:37:11.

but who cannot tell them difference between the interpreting Aust

:37:12.:37:15.

Pacific a thickness of a test, let alone can't delete a value. I have

:37:16.:37:20.

or dimension and that speech and audio analysis and textual analysis

:37:21.:37:26.

are two different things. The problem for textual forensic

:37:27.:37:30.

linguistics is that many aspects of the work, determination of meanings

:37:31.:37:35.

and messages, profiling the background of a writer, etc, are a

:37:36.:37:38.

long way from the laboratory waste paradigms. The closest we get to

:37:39.:37:44.

laboratory based science is in comparative authorship analysis

:37:45.:37:47.

work. Cover this work. There is no way for

:37:48.:38:11.

high-quality petitioners to be avoided.

:38:12.:38:23.

This could look like a register for individuals, methods or both. The

:38:24.:38:36.

obvious person to hold it would be the regulator for Forensic Science

:38:37.:38:43.

Service to where is the proof that forensic linguistic analysis can

:38:44.:38:48.

work? In those cases, where forensics linguistic evidence has

:38:49.:38:56.

been allowed in court, it has proved particularly valuable. For example,

:38:57.:39:00.

it was used in the appeals of Derek Bentley and the Birmingham six. In

:39:01.:39:05.

many cases across the UK, it has been used to determine authorship of

:39:06.:39:11.

SMS text messages in murder cases. It has been used to extract the

:39:12.:39:16.

meaning of coded texts and slang terms used in internet cat rooms,

:39:17.:39:20.

often involving conspiracies to murder and child sex abuse

:39:21.:39:26.

conversations. Good forensic linguistic evidence has withstood

:39:27.:39:31.

appeal. Yet there is the potential to undermine this excellent work

:39:32.:39:36.

through substandard analysis by Purley and unqualified

:39:37.:39:43.

practitioners. Of all it has strong roots in the UK, there is evidence

:39:44.:39:50.

of textual evidence growing internationally. Examples include

:39:51.:39:55.

Australia in successful appeals against murder convictions and in

:39:56.:39:59.

South Africa in cases of disputed wills. In 1996 in the United States,

:40:00.:40:06.

textual forensic linguistic analysis was used to identify the writer of a

:40:07.:40:15.

manifesto as Ted kitchen ski who was convicted of running a bombing

:40:16.:40:23.

campaign across the country. In the UK, it has been used regarding

:40:24.:40:31.

serious counter-terrorism charges. In 2004, an individual was arrested

:40:32.:40:39.

and charged on the basis of linguistic evidence linking him to a

:40:40.:40:46.

conspiracy document. He later admitted to potting to bomb the New

:40:47.:40:53.

York Stock Exchange, the IMF headquarters and the World Bank

:40:54.:40:59.

amongst other targets. The UK Forensic Science Service role was

:41:00.:41:06.

created in 2007 by the honourable member for Hackney South and

:41:07.:41:09.

Shoreditch. It is good to see some progress has been made. But on this

:41:10.:41:17.

issue it is time to put the regulator to work. Mr Speaker, this

:41:18.:41:20.

bill will enable the statutory agencies to use information and

:41:21.:41:28.

evidence as they gather through the medium of forensic evidence to

:41:29.:41:34.

protect more children from predatory adults and protect the British

:41:35.:41:39.

public from the likelihood of events like those seen recently in

:41:40.:41:45.

Brussels, Paris, Kabul and Pakistan. I commend it to the House. The

:41:46.:41:51.

question is that the honourable member have leave to bring in the

:41:52.:41:59.

Bill? As many who are of that opinion say I? The contrary now? The

:42:00.:42:05.

ayes have it. Who will prepare and bring in the Bill? Michelle Thomson,

:42:06.:42:10.

Mr Jacob Rees-Mogg and myself. Very smart. Stylish. Forensic

:42:11.:42:44.

linguistics standards Bill. White May six may. We come to the main

:42:45.:43:03.

business. The question is as on the order paper. The ayes have it. The

:43:04.:43:20.

clerk will now read the order of business for the day. I must draw

:43:21.:43:31.

the attention of the House that financial privilege is engaged by

:43:32.:43:35.

Lords amendment to a. If the House agrees it, I will cause an

:43:36.:43:40.

appropriate entry to be made in the journal. The first Amendment to be

:43:41.:43:47.

taken as Lords amendment seven A with which we will consider seven B

:43:48.:44:09.

on words. Lords amendment six and eight, as well as to. To move to

:44:10.:44:15.

agree with Lords amendment seven, I call the Minister, the Minister

:44:16.:44:26.

being Andrea led seven. Thank you. To deliver on its manifesto

:44:27.:44:30.

commitment, the government remains determined to bring forward the

:44:31.:44:33.

closure of the renewables obligation to new onshore wind in Great

:44:34.:44:38.

Britain. This is a commitment based on plans which were signalled well

:44:39.:44:42.

before the general election last year and which should not have come

:44:43.:44:45.

as a surprise to honourable members ought to industry. Back in March

:44:46.:44:54.

2015, the honourable member for Suffolk stated in this House that we

:44:55.:44:58.

have made it absolutely clear that we will remove onshore wind

:44:59.:45:06.

subsidies in the future. Prior to that comment 2014, the Prime

:45:07.:45:10.

Minister stated in a House of Commons Liaison Committee that we

:45:11.:45:13.

don't need more of these subsidised onshore wind farms so let's get rid

:45:14.:45:17.

of the subsidy. We're been absolutely clear long the

:45:18.:45:22.

government's policies to bring forward the closure of the

:45:23.:45:24.

renewables obligation to new onshore wind. To protect investor

:45:25.:45:30.

confidence, the government has proposed a grace period for those

:45:31.:45:34.

projects meeting certain conditions, as at 18 June last year. The grace

:45:35.:45:46.

period provisions intended to detect projects which already had relevant

:45:47.:45:53.

planning consents, a grid connection offer an acceptance of that offer or

:45:54.:45:59.

confirmation that no grid connection is required, and also access to land

:46:00.:46:08.

rights. I will give way. In the list of pre-warnings she set out, my

:46:09.:46:17.

recollection tells me that the proposals were contained within our

:46:18.:46:22.

manifesto and that commanded the support of the British people. Does

:46:23.:46:31.

she agree with me that this is the other place being on thin ice again?

:46:32.:46:40.

He is exactly right. This is a manifesto commitment and in the

:46:41.:46:47.

other house peers should listen to the manifesto commitment of this

:46:48.:46:51.

government and should respect it, as is normally the practice as I

:46:52.:46:54.

understand it. The government has also taken action regarding a key

:46:55.:47:02.

concern raised by industry about an investment freeze. The clauses are

:47:03.:47:06.

there to ensure projects that meet the court grace period and were

:47:07.:47:13.

intended to access the period as proposed are not frozen out of the

:47:14.:47:18.

process. Government continues to receive representations from

:47:19.:47:24.

industry suggesting they welcome the proposals to address the investment

:47:25.:47:27.

freeze. The government has put in place a provision to insure an

:47:28.:47:33.

existing grace period caused by delays to grade or radar works will

:47:34.:47:38.

continue to apply. We need to get on and complete this Bill. As the

:47:39.:47:44.

honourable member for Coatbridge said committee stage, we agree

:47:45.:47:48.

speaking for the that Swift passage of the bill with these provisions is

:47:49.:47:56.

needed, in order to provide certainty to investors in this

:47:57.:48:01.

industry as quickly as possible. The renewables industry fears that the

:48:02.:48:10.

longer the period of in certainty continues, the greater there is

:48:11.:48:12.

further to be running out of time. And any additional capacity added to

:48:13.:48:37.

existing wind stations after the onshore wind closure date. This is a

:48:38.:48:42.

backstop however and would only be used if Northern Ireland does not

:48:43.:48:49.

close their are all to new onshore wind. Since our last debate, I am

:48:50.:48:57.

pleased that the RO in Northern Ireland has now closed. The Northern

:48:58.:49:05.

Ireland Executive are currently consulting on closing two stations

:49:06.:49:12.

of five megawatts and below. I am grateful to the Minister. I was

:49:13.:49:21.

about to ask about the response from the Northern Ireland Executive.

:49:22.:49:24.

There are of course elections coming up. With the Minister confirm that

:49:25.:49:32.

is almost too late for the Northern Ireland Executive at the present

:49:33.:49:39.

time? The Minister wants it to be completed, but we will not have a

:49:40.:49:43.

running the executive in Northern Ireland until at least a fortnight

:49:44.:49:48.

after the elections. I cannot agree that we are rushing this bill

:49:49.:49:52.

through in any way. Has been an enormous amount of time for

:49:53.:49:58.

consultation and discussion. The executive are consulting closing two

:49:59.:50:04.

stations of five megawatts and below. Since our last debate on this

:50:05.:50:16.

policy in this House, government has introduced two further small changes

:50:17.:50:21.

to the Bill. These will provide for the early closure of the RO to new

:50:22.:50:26.

onshore wind in Great Britain and the backstop power relating to

:50:27.:50:34.

Northern Ireland to come into force on the date of Royal assent of this

:50:35.:50:42.

Bill. The amendments listed are those which are just the early

:50:43.:50:50.

closure date. These changes are made in VS places throughout clauses of

:50:51.:50:58.

the Bill and to the grid and radar condition and the investment freeze

:50:59.:51:01.

condition. I was very clear in our last debate on this issue, as was

:51:02.:51:07.

the Parliamentary undersecretary of state in the other place, the

:51:08.:51:11.

government does not intend to backdate these provisions. Before I

:51:12.:51:19.

speak to other amendments and the government's intention to disagree,

:51:20.:51:23.

let me again see the government remains committed to our manifesto

:51:24.:51:35.

pledge for ending these subsidies for new onshore wind. The government

:51:36.:51:42.

does not agree that it is appropriate to include the provision

:51:43.:51:49.

in the Lord's provision. The government wants this part of the

:51:50.:51:59.

bill retirement to the House as it was before it left for the other

:52:00.:52:08.

place. This would include projects which would have had an indication

:52:09.:52:13.

from a local planning authority that they would receive planning consent,

:52:14.:52:20.

subject to section 106 being entered into. It would include projects

:52:21.:52:24.

where the local planning committee was minded to approve a planning

:52:25.:52:31.

application before 18 June 2015, but where planning permission was not

:52:32.:52:35.

actually issued until after this date. To be clear, these projects

:52:36.:52:41.

did not have planning permission as at 18 June last year, and therefore

:52:42.:52:46.

they do not meet the grace period criteria as proposed by the

:52:47.:52:46.

government. The 18th of June was set out as a

:52:47.:52:55.

clear line and we have continued to maintain the importance of this as a

:52:56.:52:58.

clear cut off and statement of intent to industry. To tamper with

:52:59.:53:04.

such an integral part of the early closure policy at such a late stage

:53:05.:53:07.

in its development simply will not do. Such a change would lead to an

:53:08.:53:13.

increase in deployment and an increase which runs counter to the

:53:14.:53:19.

intent of the early closure policy. This Government has a mandate to

:53:20.:53:24.

act, to protect consumer bills from rising costs. And we must continue

:53:25.:53:29.

to maintain the clear bright line, so carefully set out in the bill

:53:30.:53:36.

provisions. I will give way. In terms of the cost of this amendment

:53:37.:53:41.

from the Lords, what would she envisage the cost being if they

:53:42.:53:45.

fooled 90 megawatts we're talking about were deployed, the average

:53:46.:53:51.

bill, for consumers? So, the honourable gentleman will be aware

:53:52.:53:57.

that that is likely to reduce the predicted savings from our early

:53:58.:54:01.

closure, buy something in the region of ?10 million per annum. This is a

:54:02.:54:06.

significant figure, we're the early closure of the R O is expected to

:54:07.:54:13.

save, any central scenario, around ?29 a year and in the high scenario,

:54:14.:54:19.

as much as ?270 million per year. Delighted to give away. Does she

:54:20.:54:23.

agree that this is one of the most popular policies that we have put

:54:24.:54:27.

the electorate and therefore we need to get on with it and the other

:54:28.:54:31.

place should recognise this was an issue arising from the election?

:54:32.:54:36.

Might write honourable friend is exactly right. This is a key,

:54:37.:54:41.

popular manifesto commitment. And we're determined to implement it, as

:54:42.:54:44.

we promised the voters of this country that we would do, last May.

:54:45.:54:49.

He is exactly right. Madame Deputy Speaker, I will turn briefly to

:54:50.:54:56.

amendment 2a, which was agreed on the other place. This seeks to

:54:57.:55:02.

determine whether an oilfield project is complete, can be

:55:03.:55:05.

transferred to the Oil and Gas Authority. This function is it

:55:06.:55:10.

outside of chapter nine of the corporation tax and elsewhere within

:55:11.:55:13.

that act. Therefore, it does not fall within the definition of

:55:14.:55:18.

relevant function, under clause 26 of this bill. It is incapable of

:55:19.:55:23.

being transfer from the Secretary of State to the LGA by regulations made

:55:24.:55:28.

under clause 2-2. This removes the reference to part nine, from the

:55:29.:55:33.

reference to part eight of the corporation tax act of 2010, within

:55:34.:55:38.

clause 2-6, ensuring this important function is capable of being

:55:39.:55:45.

transferred to the LGA. So, this is purely technical in nature and seeks

:55:46.:55:49.

to put beyond doubt that all key oil and gas taxation functions can be

:55:50.:55:56.

transferred to the OGA, one becomes a Government company, as we have

:55:57.:56:03.

always intended. I beg to move. The question is that this has agrees

:56:04.:56:12.

with the Lords and their amendments. The messages we receive from the

:56:13.:56:15.

other place to make a number of changes to the bill. In most

:56:16.:56:24.

instances, the changes that relate to the areas mentioned, of the

:56:25.:56:29.

closure of the Aru itself, essentially because of the progress

:56:30.:56:32.

of the Bill through Parliament, leading to the potential charge of

:56:33.:56:38.

retrograde specificity. It is good that has been rectified. And that

:56:39.:56:43.

the Government is not backdating the closure of the RO. This changes to

:56:44.:56:54.

point to the issue that is raised in one of the other messages, which the

:56:55.:56:59.

Government is to be moving to disagree with. We need to be clear

:57:00.:57:05.

that the message itself is not saying that the notion of changing

:57:06.:57:13.

the closure date for the renewed obligation, as far as onshore wind

:57:14.:57:17.

farms concerned, is wrong. Although, myself, I continue to contain that

:57:18.:57:22.

it was and is. And particularly so, because contrary to the impression

:57:23.:57:26.

that the Minister gives us this afternoon, it is not the case that

:57:27.:57:31.

developers of project suddenly realised the closure date was going

:57:32.:57:35.

to the earlier than previously thought. Indeed, the so-called

:57:36.:57:40.

warnings that the minister mentioned, prior to the General

:57:41.:57:44.

Election, were not warnings about the early closure dates of the RO

:57:45.:57:50.

but warnings about future funding of onshore wind farm general. Since

:57:51.:57:59.

developers of projects always knew that they are would come to an end

:58:00.:58:04.

in March 20 17th anyway, and had many instances spent many years in

:58:05.:58:11.

the development process, a long period the former either the

:58:12.:58:15.

warnings of the policy was put forward in the manifesto and

:58:16.:58:18.

subsequently before a bill in this House... They found that after that

:58:19.:58:25.

long periods, having planned with the notion that the RO would come to

:58:26.:58:31.

an end, as they previously understood, they found late in the

:58:32.:58:36.

day that the goalposts had been arbitrarily moved and that

:58:37.:58:39.

investment costs were lost overnight as a result of that movement of the

:58:40.:58:47.

goalposts. And neither is it the case that this particular message,

:58:48.:58:50.

that the Government is moving to disagree with, is in any way

:58:51.:58:56.

contrary to manifesto commitments. It is not about the principle of the

:58:57.:59:04.

early closure of the RO. It is about grace periods, following that

:59:05.:59:10.

closure process. It is not saying there should not be grace periods,

:59:11.:59:15.

as far as exceptions for schemes that for various reasons might fall

:59:16.:59:18.

foul of this new and arbitrary cut-off date, what it is saying, and

:59:19.:59:21.

doing so by highlighting a small number of projects that have fallen

:59:22.:59:25.

foul of the cut-off date for some very specific reasons, his a grace

:59:26.:59:28.

period scheme should be built on a reasonable level of equity and

:59:29.:59:32.

fairness and should work within an understanding of proper reasons for

:59:33.:59:36.

exemption, rather than the imposing a few extended but nevertheless

:59:37.:59:39.

still arbitrary cut-off dates for projects. The message highlighted is

:59:40.:59:49.

a particularly egregious one, in the grace period scheme. It involves

:59:50.:59:53.

schemes that have, according to new guidelines laid down in the build

:59:54.:59:55.

process itself, done the right thing throughout. They have sought

:59:56.:59:58.

unsecured local support for proposals, which the Government said

:59:59.:00:05.

was to acquire development permission for any onshore wind farm

:00:06.:00:10.

in the future. Local committee should have a say in decisions. It

:00:11.:00:17.

should not seek to win an appeal on the basis of national determination

:00:18.:00:20.

after having been turned down at local level. Schemes in this

:00:21.:00:25.

amendment is it exactly that description. They have determinedly

:00:26.:00:31.

gone through the local process. They haven't aged weather, balance and

:00:32.:00:36.

back and waiting to progress through an appeal. They have one local

:00:37.:00:38.

community support to the granting of a planning decision. The only issue

:00:39.:00:46.

is that having done all this lengthy process of local concentration, they

:00:47.:00:53.

find their locally supported outcome has, by the stroke of a pen, been

:00:54.:00:57.

turned effectively into a refusal because the actual final planning

:00:58.:01:00.

certificate has not arrived by the cut-off date because of issues

:01:01.:01:03.

unrelated to the actual permission itself but concerned with details of

:01:04.:01:11.

Section 106 agreements or Section 75 agreement in Scotland. And not as a

:01:12.:01:15.

part of a process of the agreement, but arising because the agreement

:01:16.:01:19.

schemes could not produce a final schemes could not produce a final

:01:20.:01:23.

formal planning certificate by the arbitrary date of June 18, the

:01:24.:01:27.

scheme then as a whole, was lost. Here, for example, is one suchscheme

:01:28.:01:33.

's timetable. It relates to the Shelling Hill Beach wind farm in

:01:34.:01:40.

Dumfriesshire. Planning was originally applied for in 2013. It

:01:41.:01:46.

was approved subject to a Section 75 agreement by a planning committee on

:01:47.:01:51.

the 16th of December, 2014. It was not the fault at all of the wind

:01:52.:01:56.

farm applicant that the council took a few months to settle the

:01:57.:02:01.

application. Even so, it was agreed on the 17th of June, 2015, again

:02:02.:02:06.

before the cut-off date. Despite the agreement being public and on the

:02:07.:02:10.

council website, the actual final certificate did not arrive until the

:02:11.:02:16.

1st of July, making it null and void. Quite possibly, it would have

:02:17.:02:24.

been wiser, in retrospect, for developers not to take too much time

:02:25.:02:29.

and attention on local agreement but instead to facilitate an appeal that

:02:30.:02:32.

they might hope to win. Some developers have done just this. And

:02:33.:02:35.

they appeal to decision arrives after the cut-off date, as we heard,

:02:36.:02:43.

that's fine, they are accepted, as far as grace periods are concerned,

:02:44.:02:47.

through a provision in this grace periods as being OK all along and

:02:48.:02:54.

their projects can proceed. This is frankly just perverse. It falls

:02:55.:03:01.

seriously short of the equity that ought to inform any grace period

:03:02.:03:07.

arrangement. The amendment seeks to attempt to restore some semblance of

:03:08.:03:11.

equity into the process. It does so on the grounds of the principles

:03:12.:03:14.

themselves that the Government put forward as the basis of decision on

:03:15.:03:19.

onshore wind farm applications. The principle of the future that we

:03:20.:03:23.

support on this site. The equity is simply this, they are for. If you

:03:24.:03:27.

had a planning decision from a local planning commission in your favour,

:03:28.:03:32.

before June 18, and you had arrived at that decision by a process of

:03:33.:03:35.

consultation and community acceptance to the application, then

:03:36.:03:37.

you should stand within the grace period. This is in itself a small

:03:38.:03:43.

amendment, that will affect only about half a dozen schemes and will

:03:44.:03:51.

make an insignificant inroad into the framework, as far as the RO is

:03:52.:03:56.

concerned. But it places a much-needed patch of equity onto the

:03:57.:03:59.

grace period structure and could perhaps point the way to a serious

:04:00.:04:02.

address of an issue of the future. And that issue is this, is the

:04:03.:04:08.

Government intent on ensuring offshore wind farms will be the

:04:09.:04:13.

future? After all, the cheapest and most effective renewable available

:04:14.:04:21.

today, if local support exists? Or will the Government use national

:04:22.:04:25.

clout to override local issues to ensure the closure of onshore wind

:04:26.:04:32.

farms overall, at least aspires England goes? Accepting this message

:04:33.:04:36.

and allowing the bill to be finalised will go a long way to

:04:37.:04:39.

restore a principle supposedly central to the process of the future

:04:40.:04:43.

and demonstrate to local communities that they really will be able to

:04:44.:04:46.

decide and will not find their local wishes snuffed out from the centre.

:04:47.:04:57.

I do hope the other place will not delay this still further. There are

:04:58.:05:01.

many people and parties in this House and in the other place, who

:05:02.:05:05.

wished to see the bill going through to provide measures to help our oil

:05:06.:05:09.

and gas industry, who are struggling at the moment, with a collapse in

:05:10.:05:14.

the world oil price. And the consequent threat to jobs and

:05:15.:05:19.

prosperity, which we would like to help the V8. I have two main reasons

:05:20.:05:22.

for supporting the Government in what they're trying to do here. I

:05:23.:05:25.

think they are right that energy is too dear and that this is a

:05:26.:05:33.

contribution to try to tackle the problem of expensive energy. We see

:05:34.:05:38.

the tragedy unfolding in several of our industries, most recently and

:05:39.:05:40.

notably in the steel industry, where the consequence is very high cost

:05:41.:05:45.

energy, compared to competitors around the world, and this impact on

:05:46.:05:54.

output profit, loss and loss of jobs. We need to do more to try to

:05:55.:06:01.

tackle the problem of energy and I admire the Government's urgency in

:06:02.:06:03.

tackling one of the sources of height cost energy and the

:06:04.:06:07.

subsequent withdrawal which I think is entirely appropriate. One of the

:06:08.:06:12.

problems with wind energy, making it a very high cost way of offering

:06:13.:06:17.

generating capacity, is that you need to build back-up capacity to

:06:18.:06:20.

generate the power by some other means. Because there will be times

:06:21.:06:24.

of the day, days of the week, weeks of the year, and is no wind and

:06:25.:06:29.

therefore you are entirely reliant on the back-up power, and you need

:06:30.:06:33.

to have a full range of back-up to do it. So, they were always be extra

:06:34.:06:39.

costs involved when you have an unreliable renewable source of

:06:40.:06:42.

energy, like that. And so, I think that on cost grounds, it is vital

:06:43.:06:49.

that we make rapid progress. The election was noticed enough, I would

:06:50.:06:53.

have thought, a prominent unpopular policy that none of us were shy

:06:54.:06:57.

about debating, and we got a lot of support from many people for saying

:06:58.:07:01.

it. The second reason why I think the Government is right to take this

:07:02.:07:06.

action is that because wind power is so intermittent and unreliable, if

:07:07.:07:10.

you have too much wind on your system, then the problems of

:07:11.:07:12.

managing and balancing the system become that much greater. As a

:07:13.:07:18.

Member of Parliament to represent the control centre in Wokingham, I

:07:19.:07:22.

am only too well aware of how that task is made much more expensive and

:07:23.:07:27.

complicated, the more unreliable energy there is on the system. And I

:07:28.:07:31.

think this will be a welcome check on that, which will help manage the

:07:32.:07:37.

system better and provide more reliable power for industry. Again,

:07:38.:07:40.

it will be industry and commerce that take the hit, that if we have

:07:41.:07:44.

to not unreliable power on the system, and that power goes down,

:07:45.:07:48.

they only once asked to forego the use of power for the time period

:07:49.:07:54.

when there is no wind. When we are desperately try to compete in a

:07:55.:07:57.

competitive world, surely it is important, not just to keep the

:07:58.:08:01.

lights on in people's households but to keep the factories turning. For

:08:02.:08:05.

those two very powerful reasons, there are others which I will not

:08:06.:08:08.

detain the House with, I strongly support the Government is doing and

:08:09.:08:13.

would urge the other place to recognise the importance of this

:08:14.:08:15.

work our national energy security, for the sake of the prices charged

:08:16.:08:20.

to our consumers and above all, to remember this was an election

:08:21.:08:20.

pledge. As often as the case, sometimes you

:08:21.:08:37.

don't know what is a formal role in what is just convention. I assumed

:08:38.:08:42.

the reference to ping-pong was a colloquialism. When I look at the

:08:43.:08:51.

order papers, that is the formal name for this process. I was never

:08:52.:08:55.

very good at ping-pong when I was younger. I kept taking my eye off

:08:56.:09:00.

the ball. That is something which could be suggested of the government

:09:01.:09:03.

in terms of this. The dogmatism we are seeing in terms of pursuing this

:09:04.:09:08.

and continuing with the ping-pong back and force is taking the eye off

:09:09.:09:13.

the bigger picture. I agree with the Member for walking. The bigger

:09:14.:09:23.

picture at every stage of this bill has been about the OGA. We could

:09:24.:09:28.

finish this bill just now with a minor acceptance of Lords amendment

:09:29.:09:34.

and be done. That is something I would be supportive of. The

:09:35.:09:39.

amendments put forward I think are sensible and will deliver the

:09:40.:09:44.

pragmatic response I think is beholden upon government to deliver.

:09:45.:09:52.

I am sure everyone has pressing engagements, but given the

:09:53.:09:57.

importance of the OGA put years just outlined and given the state of the

:09:58.:10:04.

oil and gas fields in Scotland, is he a little surprised by the absence

:10:05.:10:13.

of support from his party colleagues? Sometimes it is better

:10:14.:10:16.

to know the answer to the question you're asking before you and is --

:10:17.:10:24.

before you ask it. A number of my colleagues are meeting constituents

:10:25.:10:29.

who have travelled from Scotland who suffer from motor neurone disease.

:10:30.:10:38.

Given the hugely debilitating aspect of that, I think it is important for

:10:39.:10:47.

them to meet them. At second reading, there were very few SNP MPs

:10:48.:10:58.

present as well. I started by seeing at one point in my youth I was

:10:59.:11:02.

guilty of taking my eye off the ball. In terms of these diversionary

:11:03.:11:08.

tactics, I think we are seeing our eye well and truly off the ball. Not

:11:09.:11:15.

many of us are in the chamber and that is perhaps disappointing. I

:11:16.:11:29.

shall persevere. We are talking about 90 megawatts of onshore wind.

:11:30.:11:40.

The Energy Minister said in February it is our intention to give

:11:41.:11:44.

communities the final say on wind farm development. Of the probably

:11:45.:11:50.

six schemes were talking about, five of them in Scotland received

:11:51.:12:00.

planning consent. One in North Lanarkshire, 24 of November 2014,

:12:01.:12:10.

Dumfries and Galloway, 11 December 2014, Argyll and Bute, three June

:12:11.:12:21.

2015, Dumfries and Galloway, 25 September 2015, South Lanarkshire,

:12:22.:12:36.

January 2015, also 24 February 2015, and also on the 5th of June. All of

:12:37.:12:40.

these are before the cut-off date. As the honourable member's tests

:12:41.:12:49.

suggested, if we are to put local consent at the heart of this, we

:12:50.:12:53.

need to accept the outcomes and wills of the local councils that

:12:54.:12:59.

erected for these schemes to proceed, but through no fault of

:13:00.:13:05.

their own by the developers were not granted the decision notice. To

:13:06.:13:17.

highlight one of those, it is the 20 shilling Hill wind farm. The

:13:18.:13:24.

evidence to the committee from the district community Council stated

:13:25.:13:33.

this. Our communities number nearly 5000 inhabitants. Since the closure

:13:34.:13:39.

of coal mines, they have stumbled from crisis to crisis. We are not

:13:40.:13:50.

dependent. Wind farm money will release money to improve the area in

:13:51.:14:02.

which we live. That is local empowerment. We are talking about

:14:03.:14:07.

local consent, local support. In the case of 20 shilling Hill, that has

:14:08.:14:13.

unmistakably got the support of the communities in which it will be. For

:14:14.:14:24.

the sake of Pugh points of dogmatic principle from the government, we

:14:25.:14:28.

are seeing that taken away through no fault of the community or the

:14:29.:14:32.

developer, but to purely persevere in what is really an unnecessary

:14:33.:14:37.

way. I would urge the government to get the eye back on the ball here.

:14:38.:14:43.

To see the energy bill passed today. If we carry on with this ping-pong

:14:44.:14:49.

back and forth, we risk delaying it further. Can I put something to him

:14:50.:14:55.

that I think I put to him in the Bill committee, which is on the

:14:56.:15:03.

point of principle, if there are schemes in Scotland that the SNP

:15:04.:15:08.

Scottish Government wished to continue, why don't they simply pay

:15:09.:15:13.

for them themselves? Because there is no mechanism. We discussed that

:15:14.:15:20.

and the honourable member 40 against the mechanism that would allow that

:15:21.:15:26.

to happen. I don't see how that question focuses on what the issue

:15:27.:15:33.

is. Support could have been given. What happened was he wanted the

:15:34.:15:37.

power but they were not going to pay for it. That was the point we

:15:38.:15:41.

discussed in Bill committee. They were not prepared to pay for it. We

:15:42.:15:48.

had a number of debates. The question he asked is how would we do

:15:49.:15:57.

it. We can't. Pure and simple. People would like to see pragmatic

:15:58.:16:01.

government. What we are seeing today is dogmatic government. It is

:16:02.:16:09.

dismissing the views of communities. I am coming to a close. I would urge

:16:10.:16:14.

the government to show pragmatism today. It is a pleasure to listen to

:16:15.:16:23.

a message from the other place and disagree with it wholeheartedly. A

:16:24.:16:29.

few hours after the German government started to withdraw

:16:30.:16:38.

subsidy from onshore wind subsidies because of the same reasons we are

:16:39.:16:45.

doing in this country. In previous debates and in committee I described

:16:46.:16:51.

my campaign to get this clear manifesto pledge out of my party. I

:16:52.:17:06.

won't go through it again. I know we are time-limited. It stemmed from

:17:07.:17:15.

the decision in my constituency. To make the point to member is not in

:17:16.:17:18.

this place who understand how important it is to represent their

:17:19.:17:22.

constituents, but maybe to some of those in the other place, that

:17:23.:17:29.

actually it was not just one small village in my constituency affected

:17:30.:17:40.

by an onshore wind decision, there were several towns and villages

:17:41.:17:41.

involved. Many villages and the town of

:17:42.:17:56.

Daventry. All affected by proposals for unwanted onshore wind farms

:17:57.:18:04.

around them. That is why we had the letter signed by 101 members of

:18:05.:18:08.

Parliament in the last mandate of this Parliament to the Prime

:18:09.:18:14.

Minister to get this change. That is why there was the long battle across

:18:15.:18:20.

the four of this House about whether we should be subsidising onshore

:18:21.:18:26.

wind. That is why there was a clear manifesto pledge by the Conservative

:18:27.:18:34.

Party to stop funding onshore wind. And why I understand the Member for

:18:35.:18:42.

Aberdeen South and Southampton have highlighted small factors within the

:18:43.:18:46.

grace period, this is a clear manifesto pledge, a clear principle

:18:47.:18:51.

that people in my constituency wanted me to an expected me to fight

:18:52.:18:56.

for. I have to say, I'm not going to listen to those in the other house

:18:57.:19:01.

who are determined to use party politics on this. There are no Lib

:19:02.:19:09.

Dem is in the chamber today. It is the Lib Dems who fought to reform

:19:10.:19:22.

the other chamber and there are now using that to abuse the democratic

:19:23.:19:28.

process of this country. They know full well what they are doing. I

:19:29.:19:34.

thought when Lord Wallace decided that he wanted to interpret the

:19:35.:19:38.

Conservative Party manifesto it was interesting that many of the Lib

:19:39.:19:42.

Dems who supported him had been defeated by people supporting the

:19:43.:19:47.

Conservative Party manifesto and had lost their seats. One of the reasons

:19:48.:19:52.

they lost their seats was because in the can bash in their communities

:19:53.:19:57.

they could not defend onshore wind turbines. A clear party manifesto

:19:58.:20:02.

commitment of my party to get rid of them. I will happily give way. We

:20:03.:20:10.

are talking about a small number of wind farms. I don't believe any of

:20:11.:20:20.

those Liberal Democrats would have lost to the Conservative Party. He

:20:21.:20:25.

said he had a small trouble with conventions. Solder some members of

:20:26.:20:32.

the House of Lords. I'm trying to remind them of one that is a long

:20:33.:20:39.

standing convention in this place, that when our party has a manifesto

:20:40.:20:45.

commitment and it enacts legislation, it should not be

:20:46.:20:50.

overturned by those unelected at the other end of this corridor. When you

:20:51.:20:58.

look at who voted for the amendments in the Lords, for this message to be

:20:59.:21:01.

sent to the Commons, you will see a whole list of names of former bash

:21:02.:21:06.

former members of Parliament from this place who lost their seats

:21:07.:21:13.

because of that very manifesto they are trying to overturn from an --

:21:14.:21:25.

unelected place. This is without doubt, I was there from the very

:21:26.:21:29.

concept of this manifesto pledge through to point of delivery, on the

:21:30.:21:34.

energy Bill committee, I am pretty sure that I know what our manifesto

:21:35.:21:41.

pledge was and I am pretty sure the people voting for it in my

:21:42.:21:47.

constituency knew what it was. It was on my leaflets. Fairly plain for

:21:48.:21:51.

all to see. I very much wish to send a message to those down the other

:21:52.:21:57.

end but they are dabbling with democracy here. They're not just

:21:58.:21:59.

fighting for the principle of a grace period for six wind farms.

:22:00.:22:08.

They are actually fighting against a clear manifesto pledge from the

:22:09.:22:14.

governing party. I wonder if he had on his election leaflet details of

:22:15.:22:17.

the grace periods that would have been put in place as the consequence

:22:18.:22:24.

to the manifesto commitment? If he didn't have those, then he has to

:22:25.:22:32.

conclude that the question of grace periods is not to do with the

:22:33.:22:36.

manifesto commitment but about circumstances under which that

:22:37.:22:43.

manifesto commitment might be more Alice Paul and that is what we are

:22:44.:22:45.

discussing today. That is the sort of thing I probably

:22:46.:22:55.

would have had etched in stone for people to laugh at. Of course I

:22:56.:23:03.

didn't have a thing about grace periods in my local leaflets to

:23:04.:23:08.

constituents, because I thought they would get the fact that when we said

:23:09.:23:13.

there was no subsidy for onshore wind, that people would understand

:23:14.:23:18.

exactly what that meant and would not have to dance on the head of a

:23:19.:23:23.

pin for a simple party political point. I began. My constituents

:23:24.:23:30.

aren't desperate for this measure to come through. They are desperate for

:23:31.:23:35.

measures to help the oil and gas industry to come through. They are

:23:36.:23:40.

surprised that Lib Dems down the other end of the corridor in This

:23:41.:23:43.

Place are willing to play politics with the elected Chamber or a point

:23:44.:23:48.

in a manifesto that they were heartily defeated on. And they are

:23:49.:23:54.

annoyed by the fact that this matter hasn't become law already. Madam

:23:55.:24:02.

Deputy Speaker, it was great to serve on the bill committee and if I

:24:03.:24:07.

do return briefly to this point that was raised by the member for

:24:08.:24:12.

Aberdeen South, I think it is important that the record is

:24:13.:24:16.

straight. Before I give my reasons in relation to supporting the

:24:17.:24:20.

government today, my recollection, and I am happy for this to be

:24:21.:24:25.

clarified, is that when the SNP tabled amendments to have the power

:24:26.:24:30.

to keep these projects open, when asked, they did not confirm that

:24:31.:24:36.

they would also put the money up to support them, and the justification

:24:37.:24:39.

given related to the nuclear industry. As I recall, they said it

:24:40.:24:43.

was fair not to have to pay for it because after all they have to pay

:24:44.:24:47.

towards the nuclear industry which they don't agree with. Thereafter, I

:24:48.:24:51.

put it to them, would they want to be cut off from the electricity

:24:52.:24:56.

supply that comes from the nuclear sector in this country, and the

:24:57.:25:01.

answer was no. As always, they want to have their cake and eat it, like

:25:02.:25:04.

the Mayor of London, but unlike the Mayor of London they don't make the

:25:05.:25:08.

arduous with such grace, although the honourable gentleman has tried

:25:09.:25:12.

his best and has got some extra support in to back him up. My

:25:13.:25:21.

reasons are clear. The first relates to the simple principle of democracy

:25:22.:25:31.

and the position of my constituents, overwhelmingly my constituents want

:25:32.:25:34.

to see the policy on onshore wind in acted, and in acted in good time.

:25:35.:25:38.

Since at ending the Bill committee I have been out and about in the

:25:39.:25:41.

constituency and this continues to come up. I attended a meeting in my

:25:42.:25:50.

constituency of a fine of up standing group of ladies and

:25:51.:25:54.

gentlemen who are committed to preserving and protecting the

:25:55.:25:56.

natural beauty and heritage of the countryside in South Suffolk,

:25:57.:26:01.

particularly a peninsular where the River Stour meets the River Orwell

:26:02.:26:06.

and is a very fine and place to come and visit and is not particularly

:26:07.:26:11.

blighted by large constructions that would be affected by these changes,

:26:12.:26:16.

so overwhelmingly the constituency position is that they support these

:26:17.:26:19.

changes and want to see them come through. The second point, as has

:26:20.:26:24.

been alluded to by my Right Honourable Friend and others, is the

:26:25.:26:31.

oil and gas authority, I want to echo the point already made that we

:26:32.:26:38.

should not delay a bill... Is the honourable gentleman intervening? We

:26:39.:26:46.

can proceed today if the government agrees to this particular amendment.

:26:47.:26:50.

Therefore the issue of the oil and gas agency can go forward with good

:26:51.:26:54.

speed, which we all want to happen. If the honourable gentleman is happy

:26:55.:27:02.

to provide ?10 million so that the taxpayer and illiteracy the

:27:03.:27:04.

customers that have to be so encumbered, then we can move right

:27:05.:27:08.

away. We have a clear position. The bill as set out has not changed in

:27:09.:27:12.

terms of the fundamental point about the oil and gas authority. When we

:27:13.:27:15.

had the second reading, that day, the price of oil was $27 a barrel

:27:16.:27:23.

and it is now roundabout $44, so there has been some stabilisation,

:27:24.:27:27.

but that word has to be used carefully, because when one looks at

:27:28.:27:33.

what happens around the world, there was a piece on continuing a

:27:34.:27:37.

stability in Jamaica and Saudi Arabia is now starting to borrow

:27:38.:27:41.

from the markets. The concern is that the price might go up, it might

:27:42.:27:45.

go back down again. It is an uncertain outlook. Having this bill

:27:46.:27:49.

passed into law with this new, respect regulator will add stability

:27:50.:27:54.

and credibility to the sector at an important time. It is not a magic

:27:55.:27:58.

wand. It will not heal the problems that are there in this vital

:27:59.:28:02.

industry for the United Kingdom, but I do think it is a key part of

:28:03.:28:07.

energy policy and proposition and that is why the Bill should go

:28:08.:28:11.

through as soon as. Is in place a it is about our national interest which

:28:12.:28:16.

for many decades has been tied to North Sea oil and to the energy

:28:17.:28:20.

sector and the East Anglia and economy, not just Scotland, the East

:28:21.:28:24.

Anglian economy has significant output and jobs coming from the oil

:28:25.:28:28.

sector, so I would encourage all members to support the government on

:28:29.:28:34.

this. Our reasons are clear. It is about supporting the energy sector

:28:35.:28:37.

and respecting the democratic rule of the people of the United Kingdom.

:28:38.:28:42.

I think we all hope that the energy bill would by now have completed its

:28:43.:28:47.

progress through Parliament. It is a shame that it has not, especially as

:28:48.:28:51.

the closure of the renewables obligation for onshore wind was a

:28:52.:28:55.

clear manifesto commitment made by the government before the last

:28:56.:29:00.

election. This is a popular pledge, especially in my own constituency,

:29:01.:29:05.

there are positions for wind farms on the Mendips which are widespread.

:29:06.:29:10.

It is difficult to explain to them that this manifesto commitment, the

:29:11.:29:15.

government has a clear mandate to deliver, has not been enacted

:29:16.:29:18.

because of the intervention of the unelected members of the Other

:29:19.:29:24.

Place. Especially, as has been noted by a number of my friends on the

:29:25.:29:29.

side of the House, as the House of Lords, the opposition has been

:29:30.:29:32.

abetted in the House of Lords, by a party that was so roundly rejected

:29:33.:29:37.

in Somerset, in the south-west and across the country as a whole, and

:29:38.:29:42.

yet not one of them has come to this elected Chamber today, mad that the

:29:43.:29:49.

Speaker, to justify the actions of their unelected colleagues in the

:29:50.:29:54.

Other Place. The illiberal un-Democrats have a great deal to

:29:55.:30:00.

answer for. And I'm looking to actually both the Secretary of State

:30:01.:30:04.

and Minister of State for their forbearance in seeing this bill

:30:05.:30:06.

through Parliament. I understand the Secretary of State spent some time

:30:07.:30:11.

at the bar of the other House to try and eyeball those who were delaying

:30:12.:30:15.

it the other day. Sadly, they had their way and we are here yet again

:30:16.:30:20.

to debate this bill. Madam Deputy Speaker, it is important we do not

:30:21.:30:23.

allow the closure of the renewables organ at -- obligation for onshore

:30:24.:30:30.

wind to be cast as anti-green. It has been widespread despite strong

:30:31.:30:34.

opposition here in This Place with my honourable member -- friend the

:30:35.:30:38.

member for Daventry in the vanguard, but also for communities across the

:30:39.:30:43.

constituencies of this country. ?800 million of subsidy has meant that

:30:44.:30:50.

490 onshore wind farms exist and there are just under 5000 turbines

:30:51.:30:57.

already operating so this is not an anti-wind or anti-green measure. The

:30:58.:31:03.

government has needed to deliver its manifesto commitment to make sure

:31:04.:31:06.

that bill payers are not expected to fit the bill for the excess

:31:07.:31:09.

deployment of this type of generation. Let us be clear, the

:31:10.:31:15.

government is well on track to achieve 30% of its electricity

:31:16.:31:19.

generation from reasonable sources by 2020, and we should congratulate

:31:20.:31:22.

them for that. This is a government that is serious about

:31:23.:31:27.

decarbonisation, about security of supply, and about keeping bills

:31:28.:31:32.

down. A line must be drawn somewhere. The government 's

:31:33.:31:37.

decision on this is, in my view, entirely reasonable. So let's reject

:31:38.:31:43.

Lords Amendment 70 and stop the onshore wind industry from impeding

:31:44.:31:45.

the progress of a bill that principally establishes all the

:31:46.:31:53.

important functions that the LGA has in the oil and gas industry,

:31:54.:31:58.

safeguarding thousands of jobs, contributing billions to the economy

:31:59.:32:01.

and protecting an essential component of not only our energy

:32:02.:32:05.

security but, I would argue, our national security, too. It is well

:32:06.:32:11.

timed that we moved on with this bill, Madam Deputy Speaker, and that

:32:12.:32:15.

the Lords accented the will of this elected Chamber. It is time that we

:32:16.:32:20.

focused our energy is not on onshore wind but on using the government

:32:21.:32:25.

structure to encourage the technologies that we envisage as

:32:26.:32:28.

part of the energy mix for the next 20-30 years, like offshore wind and

:32:29.:32:33.

new nuclear. I am just wrapping up, but please... Meilleroux friend is

:32:34.:32:39.

making a powerful and well-informed speech. While ending the subsidy for

:32:40.:32:44.

onshore wind, there is a future role for onshore wind and we have got to

:32:45.:32:49.

carry on making sure that onshore wind whilst it is not subsidised

:32:50.:32:53.

does not lose out compared to the price is granted to other

:32:54.:32:59.

technologies as we go forward. I accept his point to a degree. This

:33:00.:33:04.

is not so much the end of onshore wind, it is clear that it is time

:33:05.:33:07.

for it to find its own feet and go its way, and where it can be sited

:33:08.:33:14.

in a permissive planning environment, I drive up the M5

:33:15.:33:18.

regularly passed the onshore wind turbines at Avonmouth, and one might

:33:19.:33:21.

argue that in that industrial setting they are entirely

:33:22.:33:25.

reasonable. Providing they can be sited in such a place and do not

:33:26.:33:29.

require any further government subsidy then of course they may

:33:30.:33:33.

continue, but it is important that that subsidy ends and it ends with

:33:34.:33:38.

the passage of this bill also what is important is that the energy

:33:39.:33:40.

agenda Select Committee have recently begun pre-legislative

:33:41.:33:44.

scrutiny for the next energy bill. There is a great deal in that which

:33:45.:33:48.

is quite exciting, in my view. Let's get on with this one -- let's get

:33:49.:33:54.

this one done and get on with that one. It is a pleasure to take part

:33:55.:33:58.

in this debate. We have an interesting contributions from

:33:59.:34:02.

across the House. On the issue of ending subsidy of onshore wind, the

:34:03.:34:08.

aim of subsidy regimes for renewable technology is to encourage and drive

:34:09.:34:13.

down the cost, over time, to the point where they no longer need

:34:14.:34:17.

subsidies. And the government did put it in its manifesto. Personally,

:34:18.:34:23.

I think the party opposite has a lot to do with this because they

:34:24.:34:25.

wouldn't listen to communities like my own who felt that they were

:34:26.:34:31.

having wind farms imposed upon them, blighting their view, the landscape

:34:32.:34:35.

and that sense of loss of control, even more than the imposition of the

:34:36.:34:39.

turbines was something that rated a great deal of resentment and we have

:34:40.:34:42.

ended up in a position where the party which they did win a majority

:34:43.:34:48.

stood on a promise to end that subsidy. We have also made provision

:34:49.:34:54.

to ensure that onshore wind, if it does go-ahead, does so with the

:34:55.:34:59.

support of the local community. And that was the issue that should have

:35:00.:35:03.

been sorted and it would have been sorted sooner, and we would not have

:35:04.:35:07.

needed to create a special, we would not cover the backlash that would

:35:08.:35:10.

have found form through the agency of my on Bulbring sitting there side

:35:11.:35:15.

meet, that they feel the subsidy resume is imposing this, these

:35:16.:35:19.

turbines on us. It was the permissions rather than the subsidy

:35:20.:35:22.

which is was the central issue but we are where we are. Further to my

:35:23.:35:27.

intervention on My Honourable Friend for Wells, we need to make sure

:35:28.:35:32.

that, given that we have an energy market now where the price charged

:35:33.:35:39.

for energy be -- imagery from producers is far less than anyone

:35:40.:35:43.

could afford to commission new production for, we have a rather

:35:44.:35:50.

artificial market. So I hope and expect and I know that ministers are

:35:51.:35:53.

looking at this, we need to make sure that we have a regime going

:35:54.:35:56.

forward around contracts for difference or whatever else, so that

:35:57.:36:01.

onshore wind is not artificially blocked from getting access to the

:36:02.:36:08.

market, because of the way the pricing within that market operates.

:36:09.:36:11.

It is perfectly possible for us to ensure that there is no subsidy of

:36:12.:36:16.

onshore wind whilst making sure that onshore wind alone is deprived of

:36:17.:36:24.

access to the mechanisms that drive new commissioning that every other

:36:25.:36:27.

technology has. I hope we will get agreement across the House, so long

:36:28.:36:34.

as immunities have the final say on whether -- communities have the

:36:35.:36:38.

final say on whether there is new wind farm capacity brought into

:36:39.:36:41.

their area and that onshore wind is treated no differently than other

:36:42.:36:44.

technologies, including fossil fuels, like gas, then that is a

:36:45.:36:49.

situation which we need to bring about. I will give way. It is quite

:36:50.:36:56.

difficult issue on how you attribute cost to the stand-by power which

:36:57.:36:59.

wind uniquely needs in a way that others don't. I agree there are

:37:00.:37:05.

issues. My Right Honourable Friend, in his speech, did not reflect upon

:37:06.:37:10.

the success of the government because I know that he is sceptical

:37:11.:37:14.

both about climate change and about government approach over the years

:37:15.:37:17.

towards this. What is undeniable is, if you look at the way that the cost

:37:18.:37:22.

curve has been accelerated, because we were in a position when clean

:37:23.:37:26.

energy was ridiculously more expensive than fossil fuels, which

:37:27.:37:33.

poisoned the air, as well as having climate risks attached to it as

:37:34.:37:36.

well, therefore what we have actually seen is driving down that

:37:37.:37:40.

cost and we're at that point now where onshore wind is in a position

:37:41.:37:44.

where it should be able to compete on a level playing field with new

:37:45.:37:52.

gas fired power stations, and we are not going to see any more coal, and

:37:53.:37:56.

we have seen, if we look at offshore wind, just a few years ago it was

:37:57.:38:03.

?150 per megawatt hour, now we are looking at what was announced in the

:38:04.:38:07.

Autumn Statement, we're going to see a ceiling of around 105 pounds per

:38:08.:38:11.

megawatt hour and by the time begets two to 2020, the mid-decade, we're

:38:12.:38:18.

looking at below ?85 per megawatt hour, which mile right on both

:38:19.:38:22.

friends will know is less than has been guaranteed to Hinckley. We are

:38:23.:38:28.

moving to a world of reusables, and as part of the reset we are going to

:38:29.:38:33.

have an improved approach to encouraging storage, to encouraging

:38:34.:38:37.

demand management and roll out of smart meters as part of that,

:38:38.:38:40.

efforts are going with the National Grid with major industries to find

:38:41.:38:45.

the cheapest way of encouraging them not to use energy at times when the

:38:46.:38:50.

grid is being pushed, as well as getting into connectors as well. So

:38:51.:38:53.

we are building the more intelligent systems which will take cost out of

:38:54.:38:58.

the intermittent renewables sector, at the same time that there is

:38:59.:39:01.

really does become cheaper in their production costs, more efficient and

:39:02.:39:07.

are helping us to meet our climate change objectives.

:39:08.:39:11.

I think, with that, I am pleased to say that it is time that we did get

:39:12.:39:20.

this law into place. Make sure that the Oil and Gas UK order to years

:39:21.:39:25.

able to do this work, and if, as I expect there will be, a rise in oil

:39:26.:39:31.

price, we will have an oil business in this country that is fit for

:39:32.:39:35.

purpose, efficient, and will deliver jobs in Scotland and elsewhere in

:39:36.:39:39.

the United Kingdom. With leave of the House. The energy bill will

:39:40.:39:45.

enact our manifesto commitments. First of all in creating the oil and

:39:46.:39:53.

gas authority, which is part of our continued support of North Sea oil

:39:54.:39:57.

and gas. We are implementing the recommendations of the review by Sir

:39:58.:40:00.

Ian Wood, and we are doing everything we can to try to ensure

:40:01.:40:04.

the long-term survival and thriving of this critical UK industry. The

:40:05.:40:11.

North Sea oil and gas industry has been the UK's largest industrial

:40:12.:40:14.

investor for many decades and has paid billions of pounds in

:40:15.:40:21.

corporation tax is in production. But becomes more difficult to access

:40:22.:40:24.

and we cannot and must not accept any delay in completing this bill,

:40:25.:40:30.

so we can get the Oil and Gas UK authority the powers it needs to

:40:31.:40:37.

maximise the recovery. Industry and governments share the same

:40:38.:40:42.

ambitions. They are working closely together to manage the remaining

:40:43.:40:45.

resources effectively and efficiently, and I find it

:40:46.:40:49.

disappointing that honourable members opposite who should know

:40:50.:40:54.

better are somehow suggesting that I adding only ?10 extra per person to

:40:55.:41:01.

consumer bills this afternoon we can somehow achieve the aim of setting

:41:02.:41:05.

up the gas and oil authority early. They should be ashamed of themselves

:41:06.:41:10.

and should be supporting the speedy conclusion of this bill to Royal

:41:11.:41:14.

assent for the sake of the Oil and Gas UK is too that they all profess

:41:15.:41:21.

to support. Turning to the delivery of the government's manifesto

:41:22.:41:25.

commitments on onshore wind. Ending new subsidies for onshore wind and

:41:26.:41:30.

ensuring that local people have the final say on whether onshore wind is

:41:31.:41:36.

built is what the government promised in our manifesto. Members

:41:37.:41:39.

opposite as suggesting that just because they are is local agreement

:41:40.:41:43.

to it, therefore it is fine to add more to the bills for all consumers

:41:44.:41:48.

across Great Britain. That simply is not the case. It is our duty as

:41:49.:41:53.

consumer champions at least on this side of the House to cook the costs

:41:54.:41:58.

down to consumers, and that is what we will do. Onshore wind has

:41:59.:42:04.

deployed successfully and is expected to meet our plant used by

:42:05.:42:12.

2020, but we do not want to provide subsidies where they are no longer

:42:13.:42:18.

necessary and adding to the costs of consumers. We must have the right

:42:19.:42:23.

balance between each of the priorities, to keep the lights on,

:42:24.:42:28.

to keep bills down, and to decarbonise at the lowest possible

:42:29.:42:31.

price, but above all else we really want to see today members right

:42:32.:42:37.

across this chamber supporting these amendments so we can get the oil and

:42:38.:42:44.

gas authority... Order, I must now bring to a conclusion proceedings on

:42:45.:42:49.

consideration of the Lord's message to the energy Bill Lord's. The

:42:50.:42:53.

question is that this House agrees with the Lords under amendment said

:42:54.:43:07.

in a. The ayes have it. -- ayes. The question is that this has disagrees

:43:08.:43:10.

with the Lord's and their amendment 17. Division, clear of the lobby. --

:43:11.:43:23.

clear the lobby. The question is that this House

:43:24.:44:14.

disagrees with the Lords and their amendment.

:44:15.:51:21.

Order, order. The Ayes to the right, 293. The Noes to the left, 224.

:51:22.:56:52.

The Ayes to the right, the hundred 93, the Noes to the left, 224, the

:56:53.:57:00.

Ayes have it, the Ayes have it, unlock. The question is that this

:57:01.:57:03.

House agrees with the Lords on all the remaining amendments As many as

:57:04.:57:07.

are of that opinion say aye, contrary no. I think the Ayes have

:57:08.:57:13.

it. The Minister to move that the committee be appointed to draw up

:57:14.:57:20.

readings. I move that a committee be appointed a reading to be assigned

:57:21.:57:31.

to the Lords for disagreeing to the amendments 17 that Andrew Ellis and

:57:32.:57:37.

be the Chair of the committee, that the committee to withdraw

:57:38.:57:42.

immediately. The question is that the committee be appointed to draw

:57:43.:57:46.

up a reason to be assigned to the laws for disagreeing to the

:57:47.:57:49.

amendments 17 propose to Commons amendment seven, that James

:57:50.:57:55.

Cartledge, Andrea Letson, Holly Lynch, Calum MacRae, Paul Julian

:57:56.:57:58.

Smith and Doctor Adam Whitehead being members of the committee that

:57:59.:58:04.

Angela Letson be the Chair of the committee, that three B the quorum

:58:05.:58:07.

of the committee, that the committee do with law immediately, As many as

:58:08.:58:12.

are of that opinion say aye, contrary no. I think the Ayes have

:58:13.:58:14.

it, the Ayes have it. We now come to the backbench debate

:58:15.:58:30.

on the recognition of genocide by Daesh against Christians, Yazifdis

:58:31.:58:38.

and other ethnic and religious minorities. We will be strict about

:58:39.:58:43.

opening speeches being 15 minutes and no more, including

:58:44.:58:45.

interventions, but there will be an eight minute limit on backbench

:58:46.:58:51.

contributions. If I can remained honourable members that when

:58:52.:58:54.

interventions are taken and a minute two minutes are added to their

:58:55.:58:58.

speech, then that is minutes taken out of speeches of members later on

:58:59.:59:04.

down the Speaker's list, so people could be aware of that I would be

:59:05.:59:11.

very grateful. My thanks to the backbench business committee for

:59:12.:59:15.

allowing time for this debate. Genocide is a word of such gravity

:59:16.:59:18.

that it should never be used readily. It is rightly known as the

:59:19.:59:24.

crime above all crimes. For this reason it is incumbent upon us to

:59:25.:59:28.

prevent devaluation or overuse of it. But such caution must not stop

:59:29.:59:34.

us naming genocide when one is taking place. The proposers of this

:59:35.:59:40.

motion are here to insist that the overwhelming evidence of the

:59:41.:59:44.

atrocities of Daesh in Syria and Iraq is recognised for the genocide

:59:45.:59:51.

it is and is considered as such by the UN Security Council and

:59:52.:59:53.

International Criminal Court. This will support similar resolutions of

:59:54.:59:57.

other leading international and legislative bodies. There are only

:59:58.:00:04.

two possibilities here. If the House is not satisfied that genocidal

:00:05.:00:07.

atrocities are being perpetrated, we must not pass this motion on which I

:00:08.:00:12.

am minded to test the will of the House. If colleagues believe that

:00:13.:00:19.

the depravities of Daesh are being taken with genocidal intent, then we

:00:20.:00:23.

have already waited far too long to recognise this. Yesterday evening

:00:24.:00:29.

here in the UK Parliament, we heard the truly harrowing personal

:00:30.:00:36.

testimony of a brave 60 rolled Yazidi girl. She was seized along

:00:37.:00:39.

with others from her community by Daesh from her home in Sinjar,

:00:40.:00:49.

northern Iraq. At 15 she told how she saw her father and brother

:00:50.:00:53.

killed in front of her, and every girl in her community over the age

:00:54.:00:56.

of eight was imprisoned and rape. She spoke of witnessing her friends

:00:57.:01:00.

being raped and hearing their screams, of seeing a girl aged nine

:01:01.:01:03.

being raped by so many men that she died. Many young girls had their

:01:04.:01:08.

larger bodies rendered incapable of pregnancy and others far too young

:01:09.:01:12.

to do so were made pregnant. Horrifically, she spoke of seeing a

:01:13.:01:19.

two-year-old boy being killed, his body parts ground down and then fed

:01:20.:01:27.

to his own mother. She told of children being brainwashed and

:01:28.:01:29.

forced to kill the run parents. Fortunately, she managed to escape

:01:30.:01:33.

risen during a bombardment of the area around it. Others are not so

:01:34.:01:40.

fortunate. We heard from another woman, Yvette, who had come from

:01:41.:01:44.

Syria for last night's meeting and spoke of Christie 's been killed and

:01:45.:01:47.

tortured, of children being beheaded in front of their parents. She

:01:48.:01:52.

showed recent phone footage of her talking with mothers who had seen

:01:53.:01:57.

the Rhone children crucified and another woman who sold 250 children

:01:58.:02:06.

put through a dough kneader and burned in an oven. The oldest was

:02:07.:02:09.

four years old. And of a mother with two-month-old baby. When Daesh not

:02:10.:02:14.

that the front door and ordered the family out of the House, she pleaded

:02:15.:02:18.

to let them collect a child from another room. They told, no, go. It

:02:19.:02:30.

is ours now. Thank you for bringing forward is very important debate.

:02:31.:02:34.

She's making a very powerful speech. Every year members of this House

:02:35.:02:39.

signed the Holocaust book of commitment, making that pledge that

:02:40.:02:44.

that terrible genocide will never be forgotten. I signed a pledge that I

:02:45.:02:49.

will never walk on by. Does the honourable lady agree that today we

:02:50.:02:55.

have an opportunity to, none of us, walk on by, as we see this terrible

:02:56.:03:00.

genocide unfold? After the horrors of the Holocaust, the words "Never

:03:01.:03:04.

again" resounded through civilisation. We must not let them

:03:05.:03:10.

resound again. Speaking to MPs at yesterday's meeting, the young girl

:03:11.:03:14.

called us, listen to me, help the girls, help those in captivity, I am

:03:15.:03:18.

pleading with you. Let us come together and call this what it is, a

:03:19.:03:22.

genocide. This is about human dignity. You have a responsibility

:03:23.:03:27.

to stop Isis are committing genocide because they are trying to wipe us

:03:28.:03:33.

out. Genocide is an internationally recognised crime defined in 1948

:03:34.:03:37.

Convention on genocide to which we are a signatory as a country, it is

:03:38.:03:42.

an attempt to destroy in whole or in part national, ethnic, racial or

:03:43.:03:47.

religious groups by killing, causing seriously bodily or mental harm, or

:03:48.:03:52.

conditions casually to the bring about destruction of the group or

:03:53.:03:57.

imposing measures intended to prevent or forcibly transferring

:03:58.:04:01.

children. Measures that not every single one of these criteria is

:04:02.:04:05.

satisfied by those two testimonies yesterday. After this, because of

:04:06.:04:13.

the limitation which has been placed upon my time I will not take any

:04:14.:04:21.

further interventions. I thank the honourable lady for giving way and

:04:22.:04:24.

applaud her for bringing this motion to the floor of the House. Talking

:04:25.:04:28.

about using the term genocide, international partners like the

:04:29.:04:33.

United States and the European Parliament have said that the acts

:04:34.:04:37.

committed by Daesh amount to genocide so we should be

:04:38.:04:42.

interpreting it as international law and working with partners in order

:04:43.:04:47.

to defeat that. I absolutely agree. We want to be leading, our country

:04:48.:04:55.

has proud record of assuming that aggressors are brought to justice

:04:56.:04:58.

and in this case, we must do so, too. Yazidi and Christians have been

:04:59.:05:06.

targeted because of their religion and ethnicity, but also other groups

:05:07.:05:15.

such as the gritty. The suffering of these women is replicated by others.

:05:16.:05:23.

I have seen many reports documenting evidence of genocidal atrocities, as

:05:24.:05:26.

I am sure other members have won the office of United Nations High

:05:27.:05:30.

Commissioner for human rights, and others. Thousands of pages recording

:05:31.:05:40.

executions, mass graves, crucifixions, systematic rape,

:05:41.:05:44.

torture of men, women and children, beheadings and other acts of

:05:45.:05:47.

violence so unspeakable there even all seems almost fictional, but it

:05:48.:05:54.

is not. -- The Eagle. Daesh is targeting specific groups precisely

:05:55.:05:56.

because of the characteristics of those groups and it has declared

:05:57.:06:03.

this, it has declared that its acts have genocidal intent. For example

:06:04.:06:07.

through its online magazine, in issue four, it says, it tells its

:06:08.:06:13.

followers, they will be held accountable if the Yazidi people

:06:14.:06:22.

continue to exist. If we do not recognise this as genocide, we might

:06:23.:06:28.

as well reject the genocide commission as a worthless piece of

:06:29.:06:31.

paper. As a consequence of the evidence meticulously collected by

:06:32.:06:38.

NGOs, and activists and the UN, resolutions have been passed around

:06:39.:06:41.

the world condemning the actions of Daesh as genocide. The Council of

:06:42.:06:45.

Europe in January, European Parliament and debris, US House of

:06:46.:06:50.

Representatives in March this year, following which the USA produced a

:06:51.:06:53.

John Kerry an announcement confirming the position of the US

:06:54.:06:57.

government, stating, Daesh is responsible for genocide against

:06:58.:07:02.

groups in areas under its control, including Yazidi poor, Christians

:07:03.:07:09.

and Shia Muslims. They have done this by ideology and by actions. If

:07:10.:07:13.

this is the position of the US government, why is it not the

:07:14.:07:19.

position of our own? In answer to this question, UK Government

:07:20.:07:23.

ministers have repeatedly said, it is long-standing government policy

:07:24.:07:25.

that any judgments on whether genocide has occurred should be a

:07:26.:07:29.

matter for the International judicial system rather than

:07:30.:07:34.

legislators, governments or other non-judicial bodies. In other words,

:07:35.:07:36.

whether this is genocide is a matter whether this is genocide is a matter

:07:37.:07:40.

for the courts, and in this case more specific for the International

:07:41.:07:43.

Criminal Court to decide. And this is the crucial point of this motion,

:07:44.:07:48.

under procedures relating to the ICC, it cannot make that judgment

:07:49.:07:52.

until it is requested to do so and the only way that that can now

:07:53.:07:57.

happen is such a referral is made by the UN Security Council, which the

:07:58.:08:00.

UK Government is a permanent member of stop that is why supporting this

:08:01.:08:05.

motion today is so important. In other words, there was a circular

:08:06.:08:10.

argument here, at present, a stalemate, which this Parliament

:08:11.:08:14.

needs to break. The motion before this House today calls upon us as

:08:15.:08:17.

members of the UK Parliament to make a declaration of genocide and then

:08:18.:08:22.

ask the UK Government to repair this to the UN Security Council, so that

:08:23.:08:25.

the chief prosecutor of the International Criminal Court can

:08:26.:08:30.

take action. That prosecutor has already said as long as a year ago

:08:31.:08:36.

that she stands ready to take action, giving a referral, saying, I

:08:37.:08:41.

would remain profoundly concerned by the situation and want to emphasise

:08:42.:08:47.

our collective duty as a global community to respond to the plight

:08:48.:08:50.

of victims whose rights and dignity have been violated. Isis continues

:08:51.:08:56.

to spread terror on a massive scale in the territories it occupies. The

:08:57.:08:58.

international community pledge that appalling crimes that deeply shocked

:08:59.:09:02.

the conscious of humanity must not go unpunished. As prosecutor of the

:09:03.:09:09.

ICC, I stand ready to the play my part in an independent and impartial

:09:10.:09:14.

manner. Members, can we wait any longer whilst such suffering

:09:15.:09:18.

continues, before doing all we can to Act against it? I am of course

:09:19.:09:22.

are aware that the UK Government is involved in assertively tackling the

:09:23.:09:27.

aggression of Daesh and is poisoned ideology, not least in air strikes,

:09:28.:09:31.

cutting off finance, providing counterterrorism expertise,

:09:32.:09:35.

humanitarian aid and information gathering, and I commend the

:09:36.:09:38.

government for this, but surely there can be no good reason for

:09:39.:09:42.

delaying the additional step of referring this to the UN Security

:09:43.:09:48.

Council, with a view to conferring jurisdiction on the International

:09:49.:09:51.

Criminal Court, to start its own unique procedures to bring the

:09:52.:09:56.

perpetrators to justice. Some may ask what difference this will really

:09:57.:10:00.

make. It will make a real difference. Recognition of genocide

:10:01.:10:09.

on the part of the international community to prevent, punish. It

:10:10.:10:14.

makes it more likely that individuals will be punished. It is

:10:15.:10:19.

often followed why stronger international responses against the

:10:20.:10:24.

atrocities found in the provision of greater help for the survivors with

:10:25.:10:27.

their urgent needs. Much needed in this case. It can facilitate

:10:28.:10:32.

reparations for survivors, recognising the actions of Daesh as

:10:33.:10:35.

genocide should inject further momentum into the international

:10:36.:10:39.

efforts to stop the killings. It would hopefully lead to active

:10:40.:10:45.

safeguarding of those members of religious minorities on the ground,

:10:46.:10:49.

whose lives and very communities currently hang in the balance. It

:10:50.:10:54.

will make new recruits including those from the UK think twice about

:10:55.:10:57.

joining, given the ramifications of being caught. Recognition of

:10:58.:11:04.

genocide is not the only final action of the international

:11:05.:11:07.

community but it is a crucial step, and one that we should make today. I

:11:08.:11:11.

recognise that conferring the jurisdiction on the ICC require

:11:12.:11:16.

support of other Security Council members, but that should not stop

:11:17.:11:19.

our country from initiating this process. I will also add that there

:11:20.:11:24.

is precedent for the Security Council, with a fact-finding

:11:25.:11:29.

committee of experts so that all current evidence can be assessed and

:11:30.:11:32.

the evidence collected, and if the mission is passed today I appeal to

:11:33.:11:36.

the government also to consider this recommendation at the Security

:11:37.:11:40.

Council. Members, I repeat, some may ask, what difference this will

:11:41.:11:45.

really make. I leave the final words to the young girl, to her aid could

:11:46.:11:52.

make all the difference in the world. When I asked her yesterday

:11:53.:11:54.

what her hopes were for the future, she replied," to see justice done

:11:55.:12:04.

for my people." I ask you to support this motion. In the final analysis

:12:05.:12:08.

it is about doing justice and about seeing justice being done. The

:12:09.:12:14.

question is as on the order paper, Stephen Twigg. Can I first of all

:12:15.:12:20.

refer to my relevant entry in the register of members interests,

:12:21.:12:23.

between 2005-10 I had the privilege to work for a body which works to

:12:24.:12:29.

commemorate and prevent genocide. It is a great leisure to follow the

:12:30.:12:34.

honourable lady who is editing this member of this House come of the

:12:35.:12:37.

international developer committee and a campaigner on human rights in

:12:38.:12:41.

particular, the rights of religious and other minorities, and they want

:12:42.:12:44.

to agree first of all with everything she said and to

:12:45.:12:48.

demonstrate the very strong cross- party support there is for what she

:12:49.:12:53.

said in the House today. Can I, like her, thank the backbench business

:12:54.:12:55.

committee for allowing this debate to happen and I hope that she will

:12:56.:13:02.

Act so that we can send a strong message from all parties to this

:13:03.:13:06.

House that we believe that what is happening is a genocide and we

:13:07.:13:09.

believe that the international system has a duty and responsibility

:13:10.:13:13.

to Act in these circumstances. In both Iraq and Syria, ethnic and

:13:14.:13:18.

other minorities have been in severe danger since the emergence of Daesh.

:13:19.:13:23.

We have seen this once diverse region witnessing mass killings,

:13:24.:13:26.

rapes, forced conversions, the destruction of shrines, temples and

:13:27.:13:31.

churches in the region. The honourable lady spoke about the

:13:32.:13:34.

meeting she convened and chaired last night and I listened to the

:13:35.:13:38.

goal, a very powerful speech from a young woman who has been through

:13:39.:13:43.

hell, has been through something that no young women or young person

:13:44.:13:47.

should have to go through and sadly, for many of us, that was not the

:13:48.:13:50.

first time we have heard that estimate. Earlier this year there

:13:51.:13:53.

was a meeting convened by the honourable gentleman, the member for

:13:54.:13:57.

Newark, who chairs the all-party group on the prevention of genocide

:13:58.:14:01.

and the member for Argyll and Bute, well we had from another teenage

:14:02.:14:08.

Yazidi woman, Nadia, who had in captured and imprisoned by Daesh,

:14:09.:14:11.

and she told us that she had been beaten, tortured, raped, but

:14:12.:14:15.

thankfully, she had managed to escape. Her story shocked us in the

:14:16.:14:19.

same way that the story from the goal last night shoppers. Since

:14:20.:14:24.

Nadia's is scared she has spoken here and that the UN, she has spoken

:14:25.:14:28.

with governments, including our own, simply to raise awareness about the

:14:29.:14:34.

plight of the Yazidi people in general and Yazidi women, in

:14:35.:14:39.

particular. Can I join with the comments about the importance of

:14:40.:14:43.

this speech? Of this debate. Surely to goodness, making these poor

:14:44.:14:50.

woman, cruel people, go through this again by having to give testimony,

:14:51.:14:54.

having to persuade organisations that should not need this level of

:14:55.:14:58.

persuasion, they should see what is happening already without having to

:14:59.:15:01.

help people being put through the pain of repeating it again and

:15:02.:15:04.

again. Surely we should not need that. My Honourable Friend is

:15:05.:15:09.

absolutely right. The evidence is there. But human testimony gives an

:15:10.:15:15.

important additional dye mentioned that is, but the additional evidence

:15:16.:15:23.

is well-documented. 3000 Yazidi women are being held against their

:15:24.:15:27.

will by Daesh. The history of this region should lead us to learn some

:15:28.:15:33.

lessons today. 100 years ago, a century ago, the Armenians and

:15:34.:15:37.

Syrians suffered a genocide and I absolutely agree with the point is

:15:38.:15:43.

the honourable lady made of Daesh towards the Yazidi and Christians

:15:44.:15:46.

and other minorities, amounting to genocide. Of course I will give way.

:15:47.:15:53.

I fully intend to support the vote for this motion because it is an

:15:54.:15:58.

important motion input to the House. Two weeks ago I was in Syria and I

:15:59.:16:04.

interviewed roughly 23, 24 people who have suffered from various

:16:05.:16:06.

groups. The only point I would make in this debate, many of them

:16:07.:16:11.

Christians and some of them Alawites, it was not just Daesh

:16:12.:16:14.

doing it, it was IS and their allies. And I think we should

:16:15.:16:19.

remember that when we bring this to the international court. The

:16:20.:16:25.

honourable gentleman makes an extremely important point and I herb

:16:26.:16:27.

that is something that could be elaborated upon during this debate.

:16:28.:16:32.

I will give way, that will be my last time. I hope, the honourable

:16:33.:16:38.

lady does bring this issue to a vote. We should name this for what

:16:39.:16:46.

it is. The suffering so tragically described at the hands of Daesh by

:16:47.:16:51.

the Yazidi people is being experienced at the hands of the

:16:52.:16:56.

Assad regime. Does My Honourable Friend agree that if we only focus

:16:57.:17:01.

on Daesh, we do a great disservice to those who are also experiencing

:17:02.:17:05.

the horror of the Assad regime and their suffering, pick out just as

:17:06.:17:08.

much and did a man as much attention from this woman. I certainly agree

:17:09.:17:13.

with My Honourable Friend that the Assad regime has unleashed appalling

:17:14.:17:21.

terra on its people and it is absolutely right that we have that

:17:22.:17:25.

focus during debates in this House before including the debate on the

:17:26.:17:30.

military intervention with regard to Syria. I've visited refugees in

:17:31.:17:34.

Jordan and heard first-hand from them the horror of what they had

:17:35.:17:38.

experienced, usually at the hands of the Syrian regime, sometimes at the

:17:39.:17:43.

hands of IS and their allies, but the motion today is a focused motion

:17:44.:17:47.

that we can all support and unite around. It is not in any way detract

:17:48.:17:51.

from the importance of continuing to raise those issues about the Assad

:17:52.:17:57.

regime and it's abuses. On the question of this being a genocide,

:17:58.:18:03.

let us be clear that Daesh given the Yazidi people choice of forced

:18:04.:18:07.

conversion, death or exiled. I think that does amount to destruction of

:18:08.:18:11.

the foundations of the life of a group of people. The United Nations

:18:12.:18:14.

International Criminal Tribunal have recognised both sexual violence and

:18:15.:18:20.

slavery, both of which as we know are prevalent in the actions of

:18:21.:18:26.

Daesh towards the Yazidis as part of a genocidal process. I want is a

:18:27.:18:32.

little bit about specific issue, about the importance of

:18:33.:18:36.

documentation. An estimated 25 mass graves have been discovered in

:18:37.:18:39.

Sinjar in northern Iraq, containing the mortal remains of Yazidi people

:18:40.:18:45.

murdered by Daesh in August, 2014. These graves are not being properly

:18:46.:18:49.

protected. They are being disturbed I have a righty or people including,

:18:50.:18:55.

perfectly understandably, relatives of the victims, local people,

:18:56.:18:59.

sometimes journalists, but there's a risk that that is compromising

:19:00.:19:03.

evidence and therefore ability to identify the victims of Daesh.

:19:04.:19:07.

Yazidi campaign groups have called for the protection of the grave and

:19:08.:19:11.

analysis of the mortal remains that they contain, and an international

:19:12.:19:14.

response is needed on this matter that is not yet materialised. The US

:19:15.:19:20.

Holocaust Museum has recognised a genocide designation, partly in

:19:21.:19:23.

order to raise public awareness, because as they put it, historical

:19:24.:19:30.

memory is a tool presents on. The International commission on missing

:19:31.:19:32.

persons is the leading organisation dedicated to addressing the tracing

:19:33.:19:36.

of people missing in the aftermath of armed conflict. The Iraqi

:19:37.:19:42.

government in the aftermath of the war in Iraq set up the Human Rights

:19:43.:19:46.

Ministry with a remit to consider policy towards mass graves but

:19:47.:19:50.

unfortunately that ministry has been dissolved. It seems to me clear that

:19:51.:19:55.

the international commission on missing persons is the organisation

:19:56.:19:59.

that should be responding to the challenge in Sinjar, both to

:20:00.:20:01.

identify the victims and examine the mass graves in order to preserve

:20:02.:20:07.

evidence. I would like to ask the Minister, when he responds to this

:20:08.:20:13.

debate today to address this issue. The UK has a good track record of

:20:14.:20:17.

working with this body, for example in Bosnia, and will they give an

:20:18.:20:20.

undertaking today to work with them and the Iraqi government to help

:20:21.:20:24.

protect these mass graves, because it is so important, that these

:20:25.:20:31.

crimes are properly documented, in particular if this motion succeeds,

:20:32.:20:33.

and there is a reference to the United Nations with regard to

:20:34.:20:37.

genocide, but also for the families of the victims, so that they can

:20:38.:20:40.

identify the victims as accurately as possible. As part of that. But I

:20:41.:20:50.

am delighted to give way. As one who collected evidence of Iraqi war

:20:51.:20:57.

crimes for an organisation called indict, many thousands still remain

:20:58.:21:05.

unexcavated in mass graves in Iraq, because of security threats. It is

:21:06.:21:11.

important to protect the mass graves because the evidence is contained

:21:12.:21:19.

then. -- therein. I pay tribute to her decades of work on this, is

:21:20.:21:23.

absolutely crucial and important issue. In conclusion, as part of

:21:24.:21:27.

Allah Judy to recognise the genocide, we should prioritise

:21:28.:21:31.

protecting the evidence which will help bring those guilty of genocide

:21:32.:21:36.

to justice and to dignify the victims of these awful, awful

:21:37.:21:41.

crimes. I support this motion. I believe the honourable lady has made

:21:42.:21:44.

a very powerful case for why this House should urge the government to

:21:45.:21:48.

refer this matter to the United Nations. I understand the

:21:49.:21:53.

government's position. I raised it with the Prime Minister a few weeks

:21:54.:21:57.

ago, that the way that we recognise genocide is different to the way

:21:58.:21:59.

that the Americans do, and the honourable lady has come up with an

:22:00.:22:04.

intelligent and ingenious way of ensuring that we can have a positive

:22:05.:22:08.

response from the government today, but also an opportunity for this as

:22:09.:22:12.

a Parliament on a cross-party basis to send out a very powerful message.

:22:13.:22:17.

And the member for Newcastle North reminded us that, every year in

:22:18.:22:19.

January, we commemorate the Nazi or the cost, we have Holocaust Memorial

:22:20.:22:25.

Day, because the message after the Holocaust at the end of the Second

:22:26.:22:32.

World War was, "Never again". Now, we know, tragically, since the end

:22:33.:22:37.

of the Second World War, we've had Cambodia, we have had grander, and

:22:38.:22:42.

now we have what is happening with Daesh's actions against the Yazidi

:22:43.:22:46.

people and others. We have an opportunity to heed that warning

:22:47.:22:51.

from the Holocaust, never again, to send a message to our government but

:22:52.:22:56.

also to Daesh and to the wider international community. We

:22:57.:22:59.

recognise this as genocide and we want action taken against the

:23:00.:23:00.

perpetrators of that genocide. Derrick Thomas. Thank you, Madam

:23:01.:23:11.

Deputy Speaker. I support the motion that this house believes Yazidis are

:23:12.:23:18.

suffering genocide at the hands of Daesh. I would like to pay

:23:19.:23:22.

particular tribute to my honourable friend for securing this backbench

:23:23.:23:28.

debate. It is profoundly disturbing that people in Iraq and Syria are

:23:29.:23:33.

being attacked for the long into different religious and ethnic

:23:34.:23:38.

groups. Daesh has committed torture, mass murder, sexual abuse,

:23:39.:23:41.

systematic rape and sexual enslavement of women and girls.

:23:42.:23:47.

Their official propaganda videos document its specific intent to

:23:48.:23:53.

destroy Christian and Yazidi groups in Syria and Iraq. I attended the

:23:54.:23:58.

meeting yesterday evening and I heard along with the many things

:23:59.:24:02.

shared, I heard of former public buildings being used to imprison

:24:03.:24:06.

girls as young as nine and women for systematic rape and just to satisfy

:24:07.:24:15.

their sexual lust... I'm grateful, would he agree that some of the

:24:16.:24:22.

women and girls abducted and who escaped face stigma and

:24:23.:24:25.

discrimination when they return and actually these women and girls are

:24:26.:24:28.

victims so they should be given all the support and help they deserve

:24:29.:24:34.

and need to move on in life and to bring the perpetrators to justice as

:24:35.:24:38.

well? I welcome the intervention. I was left after that evening meeting

:24:39.:24:43.

with that very thought. How do these girls and women rebuild their lives

:24:44.:24:46.

and somehow find a place in society where they can live full and

:24:47.:24:52.

enriched lives? The word that is needed to be done to support them is

:24:53.:24:56.

quite considerable. The UK has a rich tradition of helping and

:24:57.:25:00.

advocating on the half of the world Palace most vulnerable people.

:25:01.:25:04.

Whenever a crisis or disaster occurs, the UK Government and

:25:05.:25:08.

British people are quick to respond and lead the charge providing

:25:09.:25:12.

humanitarian aid and financial assistance quickly. Why is it, then,

:25:13.:25:16.

that despite being one of the five permanent members of the UN Security

:25:17.:25:19.

Council and having the responsibility of a unique role in

:25:20.:25:22.

the international community a week are being slow and appear reluctant

:25:23.:25:27.

to trigger legal mechanisms that exist within the international

:25:28.:25:32.

judicial system. The legal designation of genocide against

:25:33.:25:39.

Daesh relies firstly an action from the UN Security Council and

:25:40.:25:43.

therefore requires the UK Government to take some leadership and an

:25:44.:25:47.

honest position in this situation. I have heard on a number of occasions

:25:48.:25:50.

that this Government sees the UK has a world leader on human rights. This

:25:51.:25:56.

status risks being undermined by the apparent lack of willingness to

:25:57.:26:00.

recognise what is going on in Iraq and Syria as genocide and creating

:26:01.:26:05.

the environment where these acts can be prevented and the perpetrators

:26:06.:26:09.

punished. Already the US as we have heard Secretary of State John Kerry,

:26:10.:26:14.

the US House of Representatives and the European Parliament and the

:26:15.:26:17.

Parliamentary assembly of the Council of Europe have all described

:26:18.:26:22.

Isis atrocities as genocide. It is time the UK joins these countries to

:26:23.:26:27.

politically recognise these are atrocities as such. Thank you

:26:28.:26:48.

to the member. The member makes very good points and it is good to hear

:26:49.:26:54.

them. Does he agree with me that for crimes like these, the principle of

:26:55.:26:56.

universal jurisdiction should apply for crimes that are so heinous

:26:57.:26:58.

against humanity that all states should take responsibility? I accept

:26:59.:27:00.

that and my next point, I supported military action in Syria because our

:27:01.:27:03.

Armed Forces are able to restrict the capability of Daesh and the evil

:27:04.:27:10.

they are spouse. My speech was also about achieving a political solution

:27:11.:27:14.

in this area of the Middle East. Surely recognising the behaviour of

:27:15.:27:17.

Daesh against minority groups that is well documented and not disputed,

:27:18.:27:23.

as genocide, is an important part of this political solution. One of the

:27:24.:27:29.

things in addition to what the honourable gentleman just said over

:27:30.:27:34.

there, in terms of reconstruction, part of that reconstruction should

:27:35.:27:38.

be the rehabilitation of these women and some form of compensation for

:27:39.:27:41.

them and their families. As the honourable gentleman said earlier,

:27:42.:27:46.

the stigma in some of those communities is therefore a lifetime

:27:47.:27:48.

and you won't get rid of it. It's very important, particularly in

:27:49.:27:55.

North Korea and other parts of the world as well. That intervention,

:27:56.:28:01.

the reality is and a great challenge facing the international community

:28:02.:28:06.

is, how do we have secured peace in Syria and Iraq, how do we help

:28:07.:28:12.

people rebuild their own country? I would suggest there will be many

:28:13.:28:15.

people who will never be able to move back, simply because of the

:28:16.:28:18.

memories and the horrors that they have. As an international community,

:28:19.:28:24.

we need to do all we can to support these people wherever they may end

:28:25.:28:29.

up building their lives. The British people are horrified by what they

:28:30.:28:32.

hear and see regarding the treatment of these minority groups in Syria

:28:33.:28:37.

and Iraq. They rightfully expect that this house use whatever tools

:28:38.:28:41.

are available to us to work to bring this to an end and achieve peace in

:28:42.:28:45.

this troubled part of the world. Madam Deputy Speaker, a tool

:28:46.:28:49.

available to us today is to recognise these evil acts as

:28:50.:28:55.

genocide and to use our position as a permanent member of the UN

:28:56.:29:00.

Security Council so that this can be investigated by the European Court.

:29:01.:29:07.

People are being brutalised, raped and murdered. We have a moral

:29:08.:29:11.

responsibility to seek justice for these people. Thank you, Madam

:29:12.:29:17.

Deputy Speaker. May I join others in congratulating the honourable member

:29:18.:29:20.

for securing this debate, for her individual will work in this area

:29:21.:29:24.

and for the way she opened the debate today. I apologise that I

:29:25.:29:29.

missed the first few minutes of the speech but I am also grateful to her

:29:30.:29:34.

for organising the session yesterday that every Speaker has today

:29:35.:29:38.

referred to so far with its harrowing testimony of the horrors

:29:39.:29:45.

being inflicted by Daesh in Iraq and Syria on people whose religious

:29:46.:29:47.

outlook and faith is different to their heirs. I think it is very

:29:48.:29:53.

difficult, Madam Deputy Speaker, to deny that what is going on meets the

:29:54.:29:58.

test for genocide. Of course the bar is set high and it is right that it

:29:59.:30:04.

should be but large numbers of Yazidis and Christians and Shia

:30:05.:30:06.

Muslims have been killed. I honourable friend for West Derby was

:30:07.:30:14.

right to point out that it does meet the test set out in the 1948

:30:15.:30:18.

genocide convention that this is with intent to destroy in whole or

:30:19.:30:24.

in part a national ethnic, racial or religious group. It is clear that

:30:25.:30:29.

that is what Daesh is seeking to do. Pope Francis I think was right to

:30:30.:30:33.

speak last year of the killing of Christians in the Middle East as

:30:34.:30:39.

genocide. We have heard the US Secretary of State and the US

:30:40.:30:43.

Congress have both now last month recognised what is happening as

:30:44.:30:46.

genocide and I believe that we should do so as well. We understand

:30:47.:30:58.

that the Government is likely to argue that it is not for parliament

:30:59.:31:02.

but the judiciary to make the determination, but what is not clear

:31:03.:31:05.

to me and perhaps the Minister can explain this to us is what is the

:31:06.:31:08.

trigger for judicial action that could lead to the determination that

:31:09.:31:14.

I think all of us share that genocide is under way and I very

:31:15.:31:17.

much hope the house will agree with this motion, so that the Government

:31:18.:31:24.

can make the recommendation that the honourable member is arguing for. My

:31:25.:31:28.

honourable friend, that is a very interesting question. If we look at

:31:29.:31:35.

the Nuremberg court, it was the allies that set those courts up, so

:31:36.:31:38.

the Government can in actual fact get together and do something about

:31:39.:31:42.

that. This is absolutely right. It isn't clear to me, if the Government

:31:43.:31:47.

doesn't do it, how it can happen in the UK. We heard from the young

:31:48.:31:52.

woman last night who has been referred to about the way that she

:31:53.:31:55.

saw her father and her brothers being killed simply for being

:31:56.:32:03.

Yazidis, herself raped and enslaved. She was very clear in her evidence

:32:04.:32:08.

that what was going on was genocide of Yazidis and also of Christians.

:32:09.:32:12.

She made that point clearly, Christians were included in this

:32:13.:32:16.

genocide as well. It's certainly the case that Shia Muslims have also

:32:17.:32:22.

been that case -- space victims of genocide, as US Secretary of State

:32:23.:32:25.

John Kerry has pointed out. Yes, I will. I thank the honourable

:32:26.:32:31.

gentleman in giving way. When he says Shia Muslims have also been

:32:32.:32:37.

killed by Daesh, does he also agree that Daesh itself has no religion,

:32:38.:32:40.

it kills Muslims as well who stand in its way of its warped ideology.

:32:41.:32:47.

Whatever your face, Muslim or non-Moslem, if you stand in their

:32:48.:32:50.

way they will kill you. I think the honourable gentleman is right but I

:32:51.:32:53.

think it's clear from what has happened that Shia Muslims have been

:32:54.:33:00.

singled out. For example, 600 in a prison just north of most all they

:33:01.:33:05.

were picked out from the rest of the inmates because they were Shia

:33:06.:33:09.

Muslims and they were simply machine-gunned one by one. -- just

:33:10.:33:14.

north of Mosul. I hope we will make a clear statement today that this is

:33:15.:33:18.

genocide, both to express solidarity with Yazidis, Christians and Shia

:33:19.:33:25.

Muslims who are the victims of the horrifying brutality under way but

:33:26.:33:30.

also to make clear our intention is that those responsible must in due

:33:31.:33:34.

course face prosecution and they're just punishment for what they have

:33:35.:33:37.

done. I would like Madam Deputy Speaker to make some observations on

:33:38.:33:43.

how we deal with the commitment that we all espouse in this house to

:33:44.:33:47.

religious freedom. I recognise and pay tribute to the work of past and

:33:48.:33:53.

current ministers in this area but I think we should be doing more.

:33:54.:33:57.

Others are doing more and I think we should as well. I want to commend to

:33:58.:34:03.

the Minister and idea that was actually in the Labour Party

:34:04.:34:08.

election manifesto for the general election last year, that the

:34:09.:34:11.

Government should appoint a global envoy for religious freedom, a

:34:12.:34:17.

person who it is suggested would have reported directly to the Prime

:34:18.:34:24.

Minister, and also establish a multi-faith advisory Council on

:34:25.:34:26.

religious freedom within the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. I think

:34:27.:34:30.

that would be an important way for us to acknowledge and publicly

:34:31.:34:36.

commit to the importance of British influence being wielded on this

:34:37.:34:42.

front in the work of ministers and the Foreign Office around the world.

:34:43.:34:49.

The Canadian Government I think deserves credit for establishing its

:34:50.:34:53.

office of religious freedom. I think it's had a positive impact. I'm very

:34:54.:34:57.

sorry to hear that it's now being wound down. But the US commission on

:34:58.:35:02.

International religious Freedom was established a long time ago, in

:35:03.:35:08.

1998. That, I think, is an attractive model, with commissioners

:35:09.:35:11.

appointed by the President and by the leadership of both political

:35:12.:35:14.

parties in the Senate and the House of Representatives and that

:35:15.:35:19.

commission called last December for the US Government to designate

:35:20.:35:28.

Christian, Yazidi and other communities of Iraq and Syria as

:35:29.:35:31.

victims of genocide by Isil. Last month, as we have heard, it welcomed

:35:32.:35:41.

the state-- the State Department's intervention. The honourable

:35:42.:35:46.

gentleman is making a very good case and iron Tiley support this motion.

:35:47.:35:51.

It is clear that Isis are using rape as a strategic ribbon of war are not

:35:52.:35:56.

only of ethnic cleansing but an unthinkable form of conversion. One

:35:57.:36:08.

victim stated recalling hearing Isis saying that one woman will become a

:36:09.:36:12.

fighter is ten Isis fighters rape her. Will the honourable gentleman

:36:13.:36:19.

help in recommending gathering evidence so that these crimes do not

:36:20.:36:24.

go unpunished? I gladly support the call the honourable member has made.

:36:25.:36:30.

The legislation in the US which created that commission also

:36:31.:36:34.

mandated the State Department to prepare an annual report on

:36:35.:36:39.

International religious Freedom. The last one was published just a year

:36:40.:36:43.

ago and I imagine we are about to see the next one in the next two or

:36:44.:36:56.

three weeks. That means that the US -- US Government have a consistent

:36:57.:37:05.

effort to wield religious freedom around the world. We do it in a much

:37:06.:37:08.

more ad hoc way and I think we should do it in a much more

:37:09.:37:11.

consistent way as the US example has demonstrated. Madam Deputy Speaker,

:37:12.:37:18.

I hope the house will be united to support the call that the honourable

:37:19.:37:22.

member made in opening this debate that what is happening to

:37:23.:37:27.

Christians, Yazidis, Shia Muslims in Iraq and Syria is genocide. I hope

:37:28.:37:34.

we will build on that to pick up a consistent commitment to religious

:37:35.:37:35.

freedom around the world. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I

:37:36.:37:45.

pay tribute to my honourable friend, the member for Congleton for her

:37:46.:37:49.

great courage and compassion and also for such a strong lead in this

:37:50.:37:53.

important debate. I also rise to support the motion before the house

:37:54.:37:59.

today for the Government to recognise the appalling acts by

:38:00.:38:04.

Daesh against Yazidis and others as genocide. That being and it bears

:38:05.:38:08.

repetition, acts committed with intent to destroy a whole or in part

:38:09.:38:12.

a national ethnic, racial or religious group. Have we seen

:38:13.:38:18.

evidence of such intent? Yes. Indisputably. In the kidnapping of

:38:19.:38:24.

women and girls tortured and raped, sexual enslavement. Headings,

:38:25.:38:28.

crucifixions and mass graves, and in the assassination of church leaders,

:38:29.:38:32.

desecration and destruction of churches and symmetries of

:38:33.:38:35.

artefacts, and forced convergence and the driving people from their

:38:36.:38:36.

lands. We should remember the plight of the

:38:37.:38:50.

14,000 Yazidi people trapped on the mountainside and the airdrops made

:38:51.:38:57.

to save them from certain death. I heard this to me from a brave,

:38:58.:39:01.

scarred young woman who had escaped her captors yesterday. Testimony

:39:02.:39:05.

comes not just from victims but by the self automation of perpetrators

:39:06.:39:13.

in thought, word and deed. -- self proclamation. How do they lead? They

:39:14.:39:22.

claim credit. -- how do they lead. This government is committed to

:39:23.:39:25.

upholding project supporting human rights the world over and then

:39:26.:39:30.

eating millions in funding to this end. Freedom of religion is a

:39:31.:39:35.

fundamental human right. I understand that what stands between

:39:36.:39:40.

us and formally calling atrocities committed by Daesh's genocide is

:39:41.:39:44.

legal standing. The crime genocide has a legal definition that can only

:39:45.:39:49.

be determined by the International Criminal Court, so what can we do?

:39:50.:39:54.

We can call for evidence to be formally collected. We can call this

:39:55.:40:02.

in by referring it to the UN, to give jurisdiction to the

:40:03.:40:06.

International Criminal Court. Daesh is indiscriminate in those it hurts.

:40:07.:40:14.

It reserves particular cruelty for Yazidi, Christian and other minority

:40:15.:40:18.

ethnic groups. How can we support these people in this moment? We can

:40:19.:40:23.

call their suffering for what it is, genocide. Thank you very much

:40:24.:40:31.

indeed, Madam Deputy Speaker. I was particularly struck by the

:40:32.:40:36.

contribution made by the member for East Ham, and if we come to a point

:40:37.:40:40.

in global envoy may I suggest one name early on in that. He held a

:40:41.:40:47.

similar position under Tony Blair and I can think of no one better

:40:48.:40:51.

qualified. There has been much praise already given to the

:40:52.:40:55.

honourable lady, the member for Congleton, but I think that many of

:40:56.:41:00.

us should place on record that in a short time that the honourable lady

:41:01.:41:04.

has been in this House, she has one for herself a reputation for great

:41:05.:41:07.

courage, the termination, as a defender of the week, of the poor,

:41:08.:41:13.

and of the defenceless. She has earned a great reputation and if I

:41:14.:41:19.

may say, ably followed by My Honourable Friend, the member for

:41:20.:41:22.

Strangford, and has done an enormous amount of good with this and it is

:41:23.:41:26.

an honour to be speaking in a debate instigated by the honourable lady.

:41:27.:41:32.

I'm glad to see two of the more humane government ministers on the

:41:33.:41:35.

Treasury bench and I am confident that we will respond in a way that

:41:36.:41:39.

reflects the motion that is felt all the way around this Chamber today.

:41:40.:41:45.

When the honourable member for Congleton listed some of the litany

:41:46.:41:48.

of horrors that we heard last night and have heard on so many occasions,

:41:49.:41:54.

for me, the one chilling, almost unbelievably brutal incident that

:41:55.:41:58.

was recounted to me was when a group of captured young men were lined up

:41:59.:42:02.

and made to strip to the waste and then hold their arms up. Those who

:42:03.:42:08.

had no hair under their arms were considered young enough to be taken

:42:09.:42:13.

away and indoctrinated and turned into bombers and Jihadist 's. Those

:42:14.:42:16.

who showed signs of unity and maturity were shot. The fact that

:42:17.:42:22.

anyone in this day and age can take a decision, and action of such utter

:42:23.:42:27.

paternity is almost beyond belief. The fact that they can do it in the

:42:28.:42:34.

name of religion, a religion whose name means "Peace", is unforgivable

:42:35.:42:38.

-- unforgivable and inexcusable. If you think that anyone is out there

:42:39.:42:43.

who thinks that this ghastly nihilist death cult can in any way

:42:44.:42:49.

trial, what a pleasure it is to see the arch in Palm Iraq erected in

:42:50.:42:53.

Trafalgar Square, critical demonstration of our admit that they

:42:54.:42:58.

can crush, destroy, kill, rape and maim, but they will never, ever win.

:42:59.:43:04.

They will not be allowed to win because, if they do, then darkness

:43:05.:43:08.

descends on the earth, then we are in a terrifying place. It is

:43:09.:43:11.

incredibly important to recognise the fact that, although we talked

:43:12.:43:15.

about in this motion, which is extremely well crafted, I don't want

:43:16.:43:20.

to keep over much praise on the honourable lady for Congleton, but

:43:21.:43:25.

this is beautifully phrased and to use this definition is incredibly

:43:26.:43:29.

important. And quite rightly, we concentrate on the horrific

:43:30.:43:37.

circumstances of the Yazidis, but don't forget probably more Muslims

:43:38.:43:41.

have been killed by Daesh than any other religious or ethnic group.

:43:42.:43:47.

These are not only defend or protect their coreligionists. They slaughter

:43:48.:43:56.

indiscriminately. I just wanted to slightly and gently take My

:43:57.:44:00.

Honourable Friend to task in terms of indiscriminately. Yes, in terms

:44:01.:44:03.

of certain groups, they are an discriminate leaky old, but when it

:44:04.:44:09.

comes to Christians and Yazidis, they are absolutely discriminating,

:44:10.:44:14.

because they want to exterminate them and eradicate them from that

:44:15.:44:17.

part of a world or indeed any part of the world. The honourable

:44:18.:44:21.

gentleman quite correctly takes me to task. What I meant was, of course

:44:22.:44:27.

they target specifically, and there is a least one member present who

:44:28.:44:32.

has been in northern Iraq with me and who has broken bread with

:44:33.:44:36.

members of the a Syrian Christian community and has seen the lives

:44:37.:44:41.

they lead, which were always difficult, but actually they were

:44:42.:44:44.

able to live and practice their faith in something approaching

:44:45.:44:48.

peace, even under the dark days of Saddam Hussein. To see those people

:44:49.:44:53.

being hunted down and discriminated against, specifically being

:44:54.:44:56.

slaughtered on the grounds of their faith, on the one hand is so utterly

:44:57.:44:59.

chilling and terrifying, but on the other and, isn't it extraordinary

:45:00.:45:05.

how many of them refuse to recant, refuse to recruit? To actually say,

:45:06.:45:10.

this is our faith. And in some cases to die for that day. That is

:45:11.:45:15.

extraordinary. That is absolute testimony to the courage that still

:45:16.:45:19.

exists. In terms of a specific genocide, yes, the Jewish people,

:45:20.:45:25.

huge Jewish community that was in Iraq, a community that has given so

:45:26.:45:29.

much to this country, that is being specifically hunted down and

:45:30.:45:32.

destroyed. Let's not forget there are whole groups of people who

:45:33.:45:37.

suffer. And we come down to the word, genocide. I have had so many

:45:38.:45:43.

debates on the floor of this House about the Armenian genocide, I call

:45:44.:45:47.

it genocide. I appreciate this House chooses not to call the massacre of

:45:48.:45:56.

almost 2 million Armenian people in 1915 genocide because the word

:45:57.:45:59.

genocide was not formal gated then, but we know that it was genocide. We

:46:00.:46:05.

know that, to deny a group of people who have suffered in that way is a

:46:06.:46:08.

double dissemination, because it is a double death in many ways. Let us

:46:09.:46:13.

call this for what it is. This is genocide. And this must not be

:46:14.:46:19.

allowed to triumph and to win, so what can we do in this House? Yes,

:46:20.:46:23.

of course, we must make reference to the UN, but what I would like, is to

:46:24.:46:28.

actually speak beyond this House for a moment. We are not in a

:46:29.:46:32.

hermetically sealed bubble here, we are the sounding board of the

:46:33.:46:36.

nation. There are people watching and listening to us, and it is

:46:37.:46:40.

possible that somewhere in the dark laces of our cities and towns, there

:46:41.:46:44.

are people who are tempted by this death cult. There are people who see

:46:45.:46:50.

maybe it'll excuse their own inadequacies and failures, this idea

:46:51.:46:56.

that they can go and die gloriously for this twisted philosophy. I would

:46:57.:47:02.

like to speak outside this Chamber. Is anyone watching who thinks that

:47:03.:47:06.

the great religion of Islam is calling you to go and slaughter

:47:07.:47:13.

children, unborn babies, to rape, loot and murder in this way, then

:47:14.:47:18.

read the holy Koran, read the holy book. You will not find those words

:47:19.:47:26.

in that book. If there's anyone out there huddled away in dark places

:47:27.:47:29.

who feels tempted for a moment to leave this country, this city, our

:47:30.:47:37.

community, to go there, too die but to kill before you die, please,

:47:38.:47:41.

please think. You have the gift of life at the present time. Hold that

:47:42.:47:46.

gift of life. It is too precious to throw away. As is the life of

:47:47.:47:52.

others. Their lives matter just as much. And this community, the

:47:53.:48:00.

Christian community, the Muslim community, the Yazidis, the Jews,

:48:01.:48:05.

why on earth are they being persecuted in this way? What have

:48:06.:48:09.

they done to bring this Armageddon down upon their heads? They have not

:48:10.:48:15.

threatened in any way forced conversions against people who

:48:16.:48:18.

subscribe to the Isis- Daesh philosophy. This is a war of

:48:19.:48:25.

aggression. This is a war that has to be described by the one word, the

:48:26.:48:31.

only word that describes it today. That word is genocide. This House

:48:32.:48:37.

must speak, not just to fellow legislators, not just to the UN but

:48:38.:48:41.

to all those people out there who are thinking about this issue and

:48:42.:48:46.

might even be remotely tempted. You are considering moving into an area

:48:47.:48:50.

so dark and so deep and so desperate that only the worst and most

:48:51.:48:54.

serious, the word that describes the ultimate crime, only that one single

:48:55.:49:00.

word accurately describes the full horror of what is happening here to

:49:01.:49:05.

these communities in Syria and in Iraq. Madam Deputy Speaker, we all

:49:06.:49:10.

know what that word is. Let us be united here, in this House, and

:49:11.:49:16.

hopefully outside as well, and say, what is happening is genocide, and

:49:17.:49:23.

has to be recognised as such. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I

:49:24.:49:28.

appreciate the contributions made in this debate, specially from the

:49:29.:49:35.

honourable gentleman for Ealing North, a very powerful case having

:49:36.:49:39.

been made. I would like to thank the backbench business committee for

:49:40.:49:43.

securing this debate and My Honourable Friend the member for

:49:44.:49:46.

Congleton. This recognition that what we are seeing in parts of Syria

:49:47.:49:52.

and Iraq, is that it is the genocide of the Yazidis, Christians and other

:49:53.:49:57.

minorities. As we debate the nature of what is going on in Iraq and

:49:58.:50:01.

Syria, we must understand the nature of the organisation perpetrating

:50:02.:50:05.

these crimes. The followers, the members of Daesh have a particular

:50:06.:50:10.

interpretation of Islam which they use to attack those who do not

:50:11.:50:14.

subscribe to the same religion or interpretation of their religion.

:50:15.:50:17.

This means that in addition to the targeted executions of Yazidis,

:50:18.:50:24.

Christians, Shia Muslims are killed and persecuted, as are many Sunni

:50:25.:50:31.

Muslims. When the Sinjar disaster happened, 200,000 Yazidis were

:50:32.:50:34.

driven from their homes. 40,000 of them were trapped on Mount Sinjar,

:50:35.:50:40.

where they faced either slaughter by Daesh if they came down, or

:50:41.:50:44.

dehydration and death if they remained. Christians in Syria, the

:50:45.:50:53.

number dropped from 2 million to 1 million and from 1.4 million to

:50:54.:51:00.

under 260,000 in Iraq. Daesh is seeking to create a caliphate of

:51:01.:51:04.

those who subscribe.... Able give way. -- I will give way. I would

:51:05.:51:12.

like to pay tribute to the honourable lady, the member for

:51:13.:51:17.

Congleton. The figures he has cited are examples of why Christianity is

:51:18.:51:23.

dying in its cradle, and why so many constituents who are Christians have

:51:24.:51:28.

contacted us about this genocide. This is where many people in Britain

:51:29.:51:35.

recognise this to be a genocide. I appreciate many, if not all members

:51:36.:51:40.

in This Place at the moment, agree with those of the British people.

:51:41.:51:47.

The question of what they would deem as the caliphate, and persecution of

:51:48.:51:54.

those who do not fit into that vision. We have seen systematic

:51:55.:51:59.

torture, enslavement, rape and murder of groups solely due to their

:52:00.:52:06.

religious identity. The desire to establish their caliphate in the

:52:07.:52:10.

territory they hold, they are intending to draw other Muslims from

:52:11.:52:14.

across the region, Europe and beyond. It is clear that they are an

:52:15.:52:21.

expansionist organisation that has far greater territorial ambitions

:52:22.:52:25.

than to hold onto land they currently have, so given the

:52:26.:52:31.

opportunity to take more land and subject more people to this

:52:32.:52:34.

systematic persecution and killing that we have become familiar with. I

:52:35.:52:42.

thank the honourable gentleman for giving way. He is making a very

:52:43.:52:45.

powerful speech. Would he agree that the issue there is some of the

:52:46.:52:50.

hallmarks of that faced 75 years ago and that Daesh is like National

:52:51.:52:55.

Socialism. It's not just the movement try to take over one

:52:56.:52:59.

country but to make one race and belief dominant and in doing so,

:53:00.:53:01.

eliminate its opponents. My honourable friend is right to say

:53:02.:53:12.

that in this ideological way people are getting caught up and they are

:53:13.:53:19.

being divorced from their humanity, the humanity they would have been

:53:20.:53:22.

raised with them is the amount -- see around them. More must be done

:53:23.:53:26.

to ensure that we tackle that extremism online and from other

:53:27.:53:34.

sources. The continued existence of Isil, Surrey, the continued

:53:35.:53:42.

existence of Daesh, will continue to be a trauma if this caliphate does

:53:43.:53:50.

take hold and continued to be... You just have to look at Libya where

:53:51.:53:57.

Daesh kidnapped and beheaded 21 Coptic Christians, the anniversary

:53:58.:54:02.

of which was recently observed. Genocide is fundamentally about the

:54:03.:54:08.

committing of acts with intent to destroy, in part or in whole, a

:54:09.:54:12.

national, ethnic, racial or religious group. While the

:54:13.:54:19.

classification of genocide is a a manner of legal rather than

:54:20.:54:27.

political interpretation, it is not merely a debate about semantics.

:54:28.:54:30.

Furthermore, it's important for the British people, through their

:54:31.:54:33.

Government and media, to understand what is going on in the Middle East.

:54:34.:54:38.

Does the term human rights violation really fit what we are seeing

:54:39.:54:43.

happening to Christians in the region? Are the systematic and

:54:44.:54:53.

targeted attacks on the UCD is really OK to refer to as one of a

:54:54.:54:58.

number of Middle Eastern humanitarian crises? While the UN is

:54:59.:55:07.

playing a leading role in responding to Daesh's inhumanity, I joined the

:55:08.:55:12.

voices of many in this house by asking the Government to make a

:55:13.:55:16.

referral to the UN Security Council, a referral from the UN Security

:55:17.:55:20.

Council is the own a means by which the International criminal courts

:55:21.:55:23.

can investigate and prosecute these acts of genocide. Genocide is

:55:24.:55:28.

understood by most to be the gravest crime against humanity and this is

:55:29.:55:35.

what seeing perpetrated by Daesh. We have a responsibility as a

:55:36.:55:39.

democratic nation to apply pressure to the democratic judicial bodies...

:55:40.:55:45.

I will give way. In what is a very impressive speech. Has, like other

:55:46.:55:54.

honourable members of the house, he used the word genocide for the

:55:55.:55:59.

treatment of Christians and Yazidis. Does not he think that it would be

:56:00.:56:07.

helpful and indeed possibly powerful if there were a vote on this motion

:56:08.:56:14.

so that this house confirmed its definition of the treatment of the

:56:15.:56:21.

Christians and UCD is as genocide? I entirely agree and I would like to

:56:22.:56:26.

end by saying how much I agree with the Right honourable gentleman that

:56:27.:56:29.

this house needs to have a vote so that we can make that loud and

:56:30.:56:37.

clear. Natalie Megyeri. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker for allowing me

:56:38.:56:42.

to speak on a motion that is of extreme importance for me

:56:43.:56:45.

personally. I would like to congratulate the honourable member

:56:46.:56:48.

for Congleton for bringing forward the motion to Parliament and further

:56:49.:56:51.

I would like to echo her thanks to the work being done in the House of

:56:52.:56:56.

Lords in the last few years to bring this to the attention of the UK

:56:57.:57:01.

population and to us in this place. I would also like to thank the

:57:02.:57:06.

backbench business community for allowing us to have the debate. I

:57:07.:57:10.

started this week writing a speech which would give evidence to the

:57:11.:57:19.

definition of why this was a genocide. But I think that that has

:57:20.:57:23.

been covered by the speeches of other members. The honourable member

:57:24.:57:27.

for Liverpool West and Derby, the honourable member for Eastbourne and

:57:28.:57:31.

indeed the honourable member for Congleton in her introductory

:57:32.:57:35.

speech. Though I don't want to focus too much on the definition, I want

:57:36.:57:39.

to talk about my experience and why this is so important to me and why

:57:40.:57:44.

it's so important to us as a country, a humanitarian country, a

:57:45.:57:48.

country that believes in human rights. I have, in the last eight or

:57:49.:57:53.

nine months as a member of Parliament, travelled to Syria, to a

:57:54.:58:03.

region of Iraq and to Turkey. I have been to refugee camps of Yazidi

:58:04.:58:12.

people and refugee camps... I have spoken to many women and men who

:58:13.:58:18.

have been affected by the actions of Daesh. Yazidi women, children who

:58:19.:58:27.

have been impacted, whose lives are demonstrably changed index extra by

:58:28.:58:36.

what has happened to them in their communities -- inexorably. And that

:58:37.:58:40.

experience is what brings me to stand today to speak to the fact

:58:41.:58:53.

that this is genocide. I met women's organisations, an organisation of

:58:54.:58:58.

Kurdish women, not Yazidi women, Kurdish women, Muslims who are

:58:59.:59:02.

working with Yazidi women to try to bring back those women who have been

:59:03.:59:08.

abducted, who have been raped, brutalised. Barbarism. It's been

:59:09.:59:15.

referred to earlier today, those women who have had the worst

:59:16.:59:22.

experiences are ashamed and ashamed to come back into their communities

:59:23.:59:25.

because of what has happened to them. Children from nine, ten years

:59:26.:59:34.

old raped, impregnated, part of a brutal system of demeaning.

:59:35.:59:43.

Religions, of people, of bringing them to... Women together speaking

:59:44.:59:50.

powerfully to us, representatives who were there, telling us that

:59:51.:59:56.

people from the Kurdish movement there were buying back women at

:59:57.:00:05.

auctions, using their resources to bring women back from slavery.

:00:06.:00:13.

Sometimes they were found out. Sometimes Daesh worked out that they

:00:14.:00:18.

were trying to stop their enslavement, buy them back, to free

:00:19.:00:22.

them, and in those cases those women disappeared. These are powerful,

:00:23.:00:29.

powerful stories of what is happening to women and two men in

:00:30.:00:31.

that area. -- to men. But as I wrote my speech

:00:32.:00:44.

in the last few days, I had a perfectly crafted speech and now I

:00:45.:00:48.

speak just freely. But yesterday I listened to the testimony like

:00:49.:00:55.

others who have referred to is of a 15-year-old who came here to give

:00:56.:00:59.

her testimony. She was abducted from her house and, I'm not going to

:01:00.:01:04.

paraphrase, I actually took down her words directly. I'm going to review

:01:05.:01:09.

her testimony to this place, because her voice and the voice of Yazidi

:01:10.:01:15.

women, deserve to be heard in this place. If anyone wants to intervene,

:01:16.:01:20.

do so now because I'm going to read her words. "There Was a knock at our

:01:21.:01:27.

door. We were targeted because our religion and our belief is different

:01:28.:01:32.

from theirs and our humanity is different from theirs. Because we

:01:33.:01:40.

believe... In our religion we do not believe in raped or that innocence

:01:41.:01:44.

should be killed, or that a child should be cut up and his mother

:01:45.:01:48.

forced to eat him. My father and my two brothers were killed in front of

:01:49.:01:56.

me. They took me away from my mother then he grabbed my arm and my leg

:01:57.:02:02.

and then he raped me. He was 32 years old. I was 15. After they

:02:03.:02:06.

raped me, they took my friend and they raped her. I could hear her

:02:07.:02:16.

shouting, "Where is the mercy? Where is the mercy? There must be some

:02:17.:02:19.

mercy in their hearts". They took the men and they killed girls. What

:02:20.:02:30.

does a nine-year-old understand about sex or about rape? What does

:02:31.:02:34.

she do to deserve this? I saw a nine-year old girl raped in front of

:02:35.:02:41.

my own eyes by not one man but several. I saw her die in front of

:02:42.:02:45.

my eyes because her body could not handle the brutality. I saw a

:02:46.:02:52.

two-year-old boy killed and ground into meat and his mother did not

:02:53.:02:59.

know what she was eating. What are they going to do as pregnant

:03:00.:03:04.

children? There is so much brainwashing. Daesh tell you your

:03:05.:03:10.

religion and they brainwash children. They put them in front of

:03:11.:03:15.

their own parents and demand that they killed them. Listen to me. I am

:03:16.:03:23.

begging you. Listen to me. Listen to what I'm telling you. Help us, I beg

:03:24.:03:30.

of you. Listen to you, help the girls who are still in captivity.

:03:31.:03:35.

Let us all stand hand in hand and take a stance. This is a genocide,

:03:36.:03:42.

against Christians, Yazidis and others. This is about dignity, this

:03:43.:03:47.

is about humanity and dignity. If you are a mother, a father, a

:03:48.:03:52.

brother, a sister, a human. Do not close your ears to our pleas will

:03:53.:04:00.

stop I plead you, listen. This is genocide." Thank you, Madam Deputy

:04:01.:04:06.

Speaker. That was a very moving contribution from the member for

:04:07.:04:10.

Glasgow East and I would like to congratulate the member for

:04:11.:04:14.

Congleton forces during this debate. We will conquer your own, break your

:04:15.:04:18.

crosses and enslave your women. If we do not reach that time, our

:04:19.:04:23.

children and grandchildren will reach it and sell your sons at the

:04:24.:04:29.

slave market". That is Daesh. For this death cult, destruction of a

:04:30.:04:32.

way of life and an ideology and set of beliefs that is not theirs is

:04:33.:04:36.

both their ultimate and their sole aim. Daesh ourselves defining

:04:37.:04:47.

genocists. They enslave, they decapitate. Their victims are busy

:04:48.:04:52.

bees, Kurds, Christians. In Syria, the Syrian Centre for policy

:04:53.:04:57.

research estimates that approximately 470,000 people have

:04:58.:05:00.

been killed either directly or indirectly but what is most shocking

:05:01.:05:03.

is that the United Nations has given up putting estimates on the number

:05:04.:05:07.

because it cannot provide verifiable statistics because the numbers are

:05:08.:05:15.

so vast. Millions more have been displaced or lost. Each cowardly act

:05:16.:05:20.

of death and destruction is just that, a cowardly act, but put

:05:21.:05:24.

together they are a reign of terror targeted at a specific group of

:05:25.:05:31.

people, systematic murder, genocide, of the people who form these

:05:32.:05:34.

communities, of the cultural heritage that has tied together

:05:35.:05:39.

three generations of families and believes -- values and believes that

:05:40.:05:44.

define them. I heard first-hand what Daesh do. I was lucky or unlucky

:05:45.:05:48.

enough to meet with a young brave Yazidi woman called Nadia, a meeting

:05:49.:05:55.

that was co-ordinated for the member for Newark for which I must pay

:05:56.:06:00.

credit. She had been taken by Daesh as a sex slave. Her race was

:06:01.:06:04.

justification enough for the horrific way in which her, her

:06:05.:06:09.

family and community were mistreated and destroyed by Daesh. Madam Deputy

:06:10.:06:19.

Speaker, we failed... The death cult of misfits that we face now cannot

:06:20.:06:23.

be allowed to get away with this for any longer. In Iraq and Syria,

:06:24.:06:28.

Daesh's statements have taking credit for the mass murder and

:06:29.:06:31.

persecution of Christians and have shown its clear intent to urge

:06:32.:06:35.

Christian communities from the area that they claim as their own. -- to

:06:36.:06:42.

purge. As a country, we ourselves show a weakness by failing to

:06:43.:06:45.

acknowledge the extent of the persecution against Yazidis,

:06:46.:06:50.

Christians and other ethnic and religious minorities. We are failing

:06:51.:06:54.

the victims of this deliberate and targeted persecution, where race,

:06:55.:07:01.

faith and gender are all the excuse Daesh need to find new and innocent

:07:02.:07:07.

targets for mass murder. If we do not recognise these acts as

:07:08.:07:11.

genocide, we effectively declare that we are not willing to take all

:07:12.:07:15.

action necessary to bring it to an end and to bring the perpetrators to

:07:16.:07:18.

justice that they so deserve. A week after the honourable member

:07:19.:07:34.

brought Nadia to the House of Commons, I was fortunate enough to

:07:35.:07:36.

bring her to the public gallery here. In fact she went there with my

:07:37.:07:41.

wife who incidentally is the daughter of Holocaust survivors.

:07:42.:07:46.

Afterwards she was so grateful and I couldn't understand why she was so

:07:47.:07:50.

grateful to us, but I think it was because she had faith in this house,

:07:51.:07:54.

she genuinely believed that we would do something. We would act to help

:07:55.:07:59.

her and her people. She wasn't one of our jaded constituents, she

:08:00.:08:02.

thought that this house meant something and that we would do

:08:03.:08:05.

something to help her and her people.

:08:06.:08:08.

We have a responsibility, being the August democracy in the world, we

:08:09.:08:22.

have a responsibility to Nadia. This is not a position that a country

:08:23.:08:27.

that is steadfast in its commitment to fairness, freedom and justice

:08:28.:08:29.

should be relaxed about. The practical consequence of the growing

:08:30.:08:36.

these acts genocide is key to preventing the spread of terrorism,

:08:37.:08:39.

preventing the spread of radicalisation and it allows the

:08:40.:08:43.

International commercial tribunal to be set up and try the terrorists

:08:44.:08:49.

committing these Venus acts. Which is why I am supporting this motion

:08:50.:08:55.

this afternoon. I wonder if I can have the liberty of the House to

:08:56.:08:59.

read out a quote from Hansard on 12 April, which had a statement from

:09:00.:09:02.

our very own minister when he was challenged on this issue, and I

:09:03.:09:06.

would like to quote the minister on the 12th of April. His response when

:09:07.:09:11.

he was challenged previously was," I, too, believe that acts of

:09:12.:09:17.

genocide have taken place. I repeat, the Minister is on the record as

:09:18.:09:23.

saying, "I, two, the leader acts of genocide have taken place." I hope

:09:24.:09:28.

that we can move on from that statement, as well. -- believe that

:09:29.:09:35.

acts of. I thank the honourable lady for giving way. Does she, like me,

:09:36.:09:40.

hope that the whole House will be given the opportunity to send a

:09:41.:09:43.

powerful message by voting and being united in that vote and inviting

:09:44.:09:51.

those ministers to vote as well to send such a strong message that what

:09:52.:09:57.

is happening is genocide? The member for mid Dorset makes a powerful

:09:58.:10:00.

statement. I hope that is the case, but also during the cross-party

:10:01.:10:04.

support this debate as witnessed today will also be a very strong

:10:05.:10:13.

message. To explain Rwanda, Diks Lane Nazi persecution. Now it is our

:10:14.:10:17.

turn to decide whether we will have to explain to fugitive generations

:10:18.:10:22.

what we did or did not do against the death cult, Daesh. This

:10:23.:10:28.

historical moment can be a tool prevention but it is rare that

:10:29.:10:32.

society uses it in that way. Let's see the generation that uses it as a

:10:33.:10:40.

tool prevention today. Daesh are currently destroying and rewriting

:10:41.:10:44.

history all at once. Not satisfied with destroying the past and

:10:45.:10:50.

presents of races states and gender, they are destroying the future of

:10:51.:10:55.

this region, too. It is our collective job as a member of the UN

:10:56.:11:01.

family of nations to make sure that these communities are not just of a

:11:02.:11:06.

lot of ink in the story of Daesh. -- blot of ink. The oral member has

:11:07.:11:16.

spoken and I have agreed with every single word that she has said. We

:11:17.:11:20.

have had a fantastic debate. I hope that the government will support

:11:21.:11:24.

this motion, that we can move forward and ensure that action will

:11:25.:11:28.

be taken as a consequence of the debate we are having. Many members

:11:29.:11:32.

of the House have congratulated the honourable lady for Congleton for

:11:33.:11:35.

bringing this motion. She is to be King graduated. We should be so

:11:36.:11:39.

proud that we are debating this matter of such importance in the

:11:40.:11:44.

House today. Madam Deputy Speaker, we have a moral responsibility to

:11:45.:11:47.

speak out against crimes of genocide that have taken place against Chris

:11:48.:11:53.

Jones, Yazidis and other ethnic and religious minorities in Iraq and

:11:54.:11:56.

Syria. We should be exercising that is possible bypassing the boat

:11:57.:12:00.

calling upon the UK Government to make it an immediate referral to the

:12:01.:12:04.

UN Security Council to grant the International Criminal Court the

:12:05.:12:06.

mandate to bring the perpetrators to justice. As the honourable member

:12:07.:12:11.

for Torbay reminded the House, the Allied governments with a

:12:12.:12:15.

coordinated joint statements on the 17th of December 1942, to condemn

:12:16.:12:21.

genocide and then beat committed to bringing the Nazis to justice for

:12:22.:12:24.

their crimes at that time. Just as we stood against genocide then, and

:12:25.:12:28.

made sure that those responsible would face justice, we must now show

:12:29.:12:33.

the required level of leadership today in the face of genocide in

:12:34.:12:38.

Syria and Iraq. The government needs to show that leadership in pressing

:12:39.:12:40.

the case for the recognition of genocide and we must reflect on the

:12:41.:12:45.

moral, ethical and humanitarian basis that action has to be taken.

:12:46.:12:52.

Genocide is understood as the deliberate, systematic,

:12:53.:12:55.

extermination of national, racial, political or cultural groups, and

:12:56.:12:58.

that is exactly what has been taking place. The ongoing conflicts in

:12:59.:13:04.

Syria and Iraq have seen the deliberate targeting of Yazidis,

:13:05.:13:07.

Christians and other minorities. If we take the example of the Yazidi

:13:08.:13:13.

town of Sinjar that was captured by Daesh in August 2000 14. The seizure

:13:14.:13:18.

of the city unleashed the ethnic cleansing of the Yazidi people. Your

:13:19.:13:22.

report tells us that 200,000 Yazidi people were driven from their homes

:13:23.:13:28.

after the fall of Sinjar. 40,000 Yazidi 's were trapped on Mount

:13:29.:13:32.

Sinjar, cup of white Daesh, they were without food, water or shelter.

:13:33.:13:36.

As has already been said, the choice for many was to be slaughtered by

:13:37.:13:42.

Daesh, or death by dehydration if they stay. The UN has estimated 5000

:13:43.:13:48.

men were massacred and 7000 women enslaved in this action. The women

:13:49.:13:54.

captured by Daesh were sold into sexual slavery and many were placed

:13:55.:13:59.

throughout Daesh- controlled territories. Destiny from survivors

:14:00.:14:03.

tells of horrific and daily violence. This has been a deliberate

:14:04.:14:08.

policy carried out by Daesh. The testimony of those who have escaped,

:14:09.:14:12.

Yazidi is an Christians, tells of the violent abuses carried out

:14:13.:14:17.

against them. As we heard from others, last night in Parliament,

:14:18.:14:19.

young Yazidi woman came to tell her own story. It was a most harrowing

:14:20.:14:26.

account of what had happened to her, her family and a graphic description

:14:27.:14:30.

of what has happened not only to her, but to thousands of other

:14:31.:14:34.

people in Syria and in Iraq. Before she spoke she was introduced by

:14:35.:14:38.

human rights lawyer, Jacqueline Isaac. She spoke of a shock of the

:14:39.:14:43.

fear of the nor can the door from fighters from Daesh Woodward lead to

:14:44.:14:48.

be people been characterised into different groups, with murder, rape

:14:49.:14:53.

and being taken hostage, place. That was just exactly what took place

:14:54.:14:56.

with the Nazis in Germany and elsewhere in Europe that resulted in

:14:57.:15:01.

the UK Government signalling its intent, in 1942, to bring the

:15:02.:15:05.

perpetrators to justice. If it was right in 1942, it is right in this

:15:06.:15:10.

House today in 2016. I hope that when we close this debate that the

:15:11.:15:15.

House and the government will unite in supporting this and that we can

:15:16.:15:20.

do the right thing for Yazidis, Christians and other minorities who

:15:21.:15:22.

have suffered in the wholesale removal of their communities from

:15:23.:15:29.

the region. I thank the honourable gentleman for giving way. He is

:15:30.:15:32.

making some excellent points. I wonder if he would agree with me

:15:33.:15:37.

that, whilst these minorities are being persecuted because of their

:15:38.:15:40.

religion, the debate today should not be about advocating one religion

:15:41.:15:45.

or another, it is about the basic human rights for all of us to choose

:15:46.:15:49.

any faith we choose or to choose none. Would he recognise that in

:15:50.:15:54.

this House there are many people of different faiths and people of no

:15:55.:15:58.

faith who will defend to the bitter end the right of others to exercise

:15:59.:16:02.

their faith and to do so without persecution? I am grateful to My

:16:03.:16:07.

Honourable Friend for making that point. As a practising Christian I

:16:08.:16:12.

am happy to accept everyone's right to profess their religion or none at

:16:13.:16:16.

all. It is important that in this Chamber, that we stand up for

:16:17.:16:20.

everybody. Madam Deputy Speaker, it has been said that when she closed

:16:21.:16:28.

her address last night, she implored us, she said, I am asking for help

:16:29.:16:32.

or stop Madam Deputy Speaker, we have responsibility for Eclas and

:16:33.:16:39.

everybody else. What are we going to do for Eclas? We must stand up and

:16:40.:16:45.

support a call of the UNC Ju Reti Council to confer restriction on the

:16:46.:16:48.

International Criminal Court, so that we can take action. The Pesch

:16:49.:16:53.

Maiga attack the place where Eclas was being held and she managed to

:16:54.:16:56.

escape before being rescued by Yazidis. This brave young woman, who

:16:57.:17:02.

has faced so much and witnessed such horrors, wants to become a lawyer

:17:03.:17:05.

and fight for the rights of woman. Really just maybe, if she fulfils

:17:06.:17:10.

that ambition, she can yet play her part in the legal team that brings

:17:11.:17:17.

her prosecutors to justice. We must help her and those like her who have

:17:18.:17:19.

suffered from genocide that has taken place. The situation we know

:17:20.:17:26.

it's Syria and in Iraq has been catastrophic and has led to one of

:17:27.:17:30.

the worst human attending crises ever witnessed. The number of

:17:31.:17:34.

Christians in Syria has fallen from 2 million thousand 11, two 1 million

:17:35.:17:41.

in 2015. In Iraq, it has fallen from 1.4 million, down to 260,000 today.

:17:42.:17:46.

Daesh has documented its specific intent to destroy Kuching groups in

:17:47.:17:51.

Syria and Iraq in its official propaganda. In February 2015 it

:17:52.:17:59.

seized villages and sort of older people fleeing to safety. 35

:18:00.:18:04.

villages were cleared and deserted in that one action alone. The

:18:05.:18:10.

atrocities satisfy the criteria established in the convention as

:18:11.:18:15.

genocide or stop by recognising that genocide has taken place, and

:18:16.:18:17.

signalling that those responsible should face justice, is an important

:18:18.:18:23.

tool in the fight to defeat Daesh. We need to send a clear message to

:18:24.:18:27.

all the minorities that have been affected, that have been attacked,

:18:28.:18:31.

that we are not going to abandon them, that we and other nations must

:18:32.:18:36.

stand shoulder to shoulder and show are resolved at the UN. -- show our

:18:37.:18:45.

resolve. Does he agree with me that there needs to be an international

:18:46.:18:55.

effort to find the Yazidi women captured by Daesh's I fully agree.

:18:56.:19:00.

The young woman we met last night is a perfect example of that. By the

:19:01.:19:05.

actions of the Pesch Maiga, she managed to be freed and she got into

:19:06.:19:09.

the hands of the Yazidis, so be must support the Pesch Berger and other

:19:10.:19:15.

like-minded people to make sure that we can ensure the safety of the men

:19:16.:19:18.

and women that have been captured by Daesh. I hope that the government

:19:19.:19:23.

will support this motion this afternoon and I hope that the

:19:24.:19:27.

Minister makes it clear that the government will do so. Others have

:19:28.:19:30.

already taken this step. The Parliamentary Assembly of the

:19:31.:19:34.

Council of Europe recognised genocide in the resolution passed on

:19:35.:19:38.

27th of January this year. This was followed by others elution in the

:19:39.:19:42.

European Parliament on. Every that recognised the crime of genocide and

:19:43.:19:45.

sought referral to the International Criminal Court. On 14th March, US

:19:46.:19:51.

House of Representatives recognise crimes against humanity and

:19:52.:19:55.

genocide. Three days later, the US Secretary of State announced that

:19:56.:19:58.

the US had determined that the Daesh actions against the Yazidis,

:19:59.:20:03.

Christians and other minorities constituted genocide. Why has the UK

:20:04.:20:06.

Government been silent, and why have we not yet seen action? We know that

:20:07.:20:12.

the Foreign Secretary has supported the International Criminal Court to

:20:13.:20:19.

hold perpetrators to account, but we know that the international court

:20:20.:20:26.

has to be enabled by the Security Council, and the UN Security Council

:20:27.:20:29.

must provide that enable Matt. We hear about the importance of the

:20:30.:20:34.

UK's membership of the UN Security Council. Here is a chance for the

:20:35.:20:37.

United Kingdom to show leadership and to take action, to stand up for

:20:38.:20:45.

Eclas, to respond to her plea for help for all those who have

:20:46.:20:51.

suffered. To show that in 1942 people do the right thing as in 2016

:20:52.:20:56.

or will we just stand back, wring our hands, and watch as Daesh reap

:20:57.:21:00.

their bitter harvest was Mike Roe we are signatories to the convention of

:21:01.:21:05.

genocide, we have a moral obligation to recognise what has taken place. I

:21:06.:21:11.

hope and pray this afternoon that, collectively, the House, United,

:21:12.:21:18.

does the right thing. I would like to join others in King flagellating

:21:19.:21:25.

My Honourable Friend the member for Congleton for her tremendous efforts

:21:26.:21:29.

in securing this debate. Words do matter. And saying that Daesh is

:21:30.:21:36.

committing acts of genocide against Christians and Yazidis is not just a

:21:37.:21:39.

statement of fact. It also forces us to realise that genocide is

:21:40.:21:45.

unfortunately an inherent part of Daesh's depraved operations. And the

:21:46.:21:51.

genocidal acts we have heard, the assassination of church leaders, the

:21:52.:21:59.

systematic torture and mass mode, crucifixions, sexual enslavement,

:22:00.:22:03.

systematic rape, which we heard in shocking and powerful detail from

:22:04.:22:06.

the oral lady, the member for Glasgow East, these acts are not

:22:07.:22:11.

just genocidal by consequence but by design. This distinction is

:22:12.:22:16.

absolutely clear in the Daesh propaganda sheets. The latest

:22:17.:22:22.

edition attacks any form of religion, any form of tolerance as

:22:23.:22:26.

being in direct contradiction to their twisted view of Islam. They

:22:27.:22:31.

say, and I quote, that the death of a single Muslim, no matter his role

:22:32.:22:36.

in society, is more grave than the massacre of every kaffir on earth.

:22:37.:22:45.

The same article says that any disbeliever standing in the way of

:22:46.:22:48.

Islamic State will be killed without Eddie or Morse, until governance is

:22:49.:22:57.

entirely for Allah. These statements are incompatible with the presence

:22:58.:23:02.

of minority groups on Daesh territory. So we are seeing quantum

:23:03.:23:06.

treated efforts from Daesh not only to obliterate any minority presence

:23:07.:23:09.

but to deny the cultural history of the territory they seat occupied. --

:23:10.:23:17.

they seat occupied. We have seen a number of Christians drop from 1.4

:23:18.:23:22.

million down to 250,000 in Iraq, and we have seen the historical

:23:23.:23:29.

settlement of 60,000 Christians in Mosul entirely disappear. We have

:23:30.:23:33.

seen the targeted destruction of sites such as monasteries,

:23:34.:23:37.

libraries, representational art and they're having edicts structuring

:23:38.:23:43.

Daesh troops to engage in the wholesale destruction of Islamic

:23:44.:23:44.

sites of worship. He makes a very important point. His

:23:45.:23:55.

point about Daesh's ignorance and denial about the historical and

:23:56.:24:00.

cultural nature of the area is crucial here. I studied the early

:24:01.:24:04.

caliphate, in that period many of the leaders of the Muslim world

:24:05.:24:08.

described the classical world that they took over as a garden protected

:24:09.:24:13.

by their spears. Isn't it tragic that they should's perversion of

:24:14.:24:19.

Islam is so different from the vision that they set out in the

:24:20.:24:24.

early days of the caliphate? It is not only tragic, it is twisted,

:24:25.:24:28.

bizarre and unimaginable that they should have taken their own religion

:24:29.:24:32.

and turned it into something so distinctly different from that which

:24:33.:24:36.

it was expected to provide. I would be happy to.

:24:37.:24:40.

Last year myself and a number of members of this has persuaded the

:24:41.:24:45.

Government to create a ?30 million cultural protection fund, the

:24:46.:24:48.

Government is in the process of deciding the criteria of how that

:24:49.:24:52.

would be spent. Would you agree that some of that money should go to the

:24:53.:24:57.

Heritage sites are persecuted religious minorities, such as

:24:58.:25:01.

Christian and Yazidi groups in Syria and Iraq, to protect historic sites,

:25:02.:25:06.

and manuscript is for future generations?

:25:07.:25:11.

I could not agree more. It is important to remember that the

:25:12.:25:15.

cultural demolition we are seeing is explicitly linked to the genocidal

:25:16.:25:20.

aims that we have heard discussed. To say that Christians and Yazidis

:25:21.:25:23.

are the victims of genocide is not to minimise the terrible suffering

:25:24.:25:28.

of others in the region. In the debate held on a similar amendment

:25:29.:25:33.

in another place, the noble lord Lord eights was entirely right to

:25:34.:25:37.

point out that it is very often Muslims, as we have heard today,

:25:38.:25:41.

suffering the greatest brutality of all at the hands of Daesh. As we

:25:42.:25:48.

have also just heard, over the last six months the United Nations, the

:25:49.:25:52.

United States Congress, the Council of Europe and the US Secretary of

:25:53.:25:55.

State have all declared that genocide is being committed by

:25:56.:26:01.

Daesh. Madam Deputy Speaker, I completely understand... I will give

:26:02.:26:08.

way. He makes a very important point about the other bodies who have

:26:09.:26:12.

declared that this is genocide. Having heard from Daesh themselves

:26:13.:26:16.

and having been witness to so many young Yazidi women coming to tell us

:26:17.:26:20.

their story, what more could it possibly take for this house also to

:26:21.:26:25.

form the view that this is genocide, and to have the courage to stand up

:26:26.:26:32.

and say so plus Jamaat I agree with the honourable lady. Her speech

:26:33.:26:37.

earlier was immensely powerful, from the first person perspective. I

:26:38.:26:43.

completely understand the Government's approach that a

:26:44.:26:45.

decision as to whether the word genocide is applicable as a decision

:26:46.:26:49.

for the international judicial bodies rather than governments or

:26:50.:26:54.

non-judicial bodies, but as the open letter from a group of peers to the

:26:55.:26:58.

Prime Minister on the 18th of February described, there is nothing

:26:59.:27:04.

to prevent Her Majesty's Government from forming and acting on its own

:27:05.:27:09.

view. A vote for the motion before the house would begin the process of

:27:10.:27:14.

a possible referral to the International criminal Court from

:27:15.:27:17.

the UN Security Council. It would send a signal to the perpetrators

:27:18.:27:21.

that they will be brought to justice and would, perhaps more crucially,

:27:22.:27:27.

act as a spur to the other 127 signatories of the 9048 Convention

:27:28.:27:34.

to add their support as well. -- the 1948. An emigre writer of a previous

:27:35.:27:39.

generation who fled persecution said that words without experience are

:27:40.:27:43.

meaningless. But the reverse is also true. When hundreds of thousands of

:27:44.:27:50.

people are suffering in this way, I think we must apply the only word

:27:51.:27:56.

which is adequate for the job, and support this important motion before

:27:57.:28:03.

the house today. Jim Shannon. Thank you, it is a pleasure to speak on

:28:04.:28:08.

this issue. Can I declare an interest, first of all, as the chair

:28:09.:28:10.

of the all-party parliamentary group for Pakistan religious minorities,

:28:11.:28:17.

and the freedom of religious belief. Those with Christian beliefs, those

:28:18.:28:21.

with other beliefs and those with no belief, as the honourable gentleman

:28:22.:28:27.

said in his intervention. Whether it be IS, Islamic State, Isil, is this,

:28:28.:28:36.

Daesh, many names, many guises but, above all, systematic psychopathic

:28:37.:28:45.

serial killers. Today is about the Yazidis, the Christians, the ethnic

:28:46.:28:48.

and religious minorities. I am pleased to see the minister in his

:28:49.:28:52.

place and look forward to his response. We have talked about it

:28:53.:28:56.

this year on a personal basis, I hope we will have the chance to

:28:57.:28:59.

express ourselves clearly on what we want to do in this house in relation

:29:00.:29:04.

to the word genocide. There have been many powerful, powerful

:29:05.:29:08.

speeches. They have been very passionate and focused. I would like

:29:09.:29:12.

to mention particular the honourable lady for Congleton. I am pleased to

:29:13.:29:17.

have her as a colleague and a friend, thanking her for setting the

:29:18.:29:21.

scene very well. The Daesh atrocities rival any atrocity in

:29:22.:29:26.

modern history, too many turn a blind eye, offering weak words or

:29:27.:29:29.

even attempt to rationalise it. In this house today the words are

:29:30.:29:35.

strong. What this self-declared state is doing is disgraceful. Would

:29:36.:29:39.

they care if their actions are called genocide or not? They will

:29:40.:29:45.

not, but we in this house in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and

:29:46.:29:47.

Northern Ireland should, and should set the bar that this cannot go on

:29:48.:29:51.

without being condemned in the utmost weight and being labelled

:29:52.:29:57.

appropriately as it is, genocide. There are some in my constituency

:29:58.:30:00.

who correspond with me, and me with them, this is an issue that they

:30:01.:30:05.

feel very strongly about. The brutality, the violence, the

:30:06.:30:09.

depravity, the evil. Those who survive physically are traumatised

:30:10.:30:14.

forever, we must ever be mindful of art. Islamic State militant are

:30:15.:30:19.

selling Abdur did Iraqi children as sex slaves, killing youth by

:30:20.:30:25.

crucifixion or burying them alive, the ultimatum is convert or die.

:30:26.:30:30.

That is genocide. 31 Egyptian Christians were kidnapped in a

:30:31.:30:33.

Libyan coastal surgery in tee separate incidents in December and

:30:34.:30:38.

January 20 15. In February they were beheaded on a Libyan beach in a

:30:39.:30:43.

chilling propaganda video by the self titled Islamic State. At the --

:30:44.:30:52.

after capturing a key strategic town, they rented a 45 civilians,

:30:53.:30:57.

some thought to be Iraq -- Iraqi security forces and their families,

:30:58.:31:01.

and burn them all alive. That is genocide. On June ten, 2014, Daesh

:31:02.:31:06.

took 600 male prisoners into the desert near Mosul in Iraq and

:31:07.:31:12.

initiated a mass execution. Approximately 30 men survived by

:31:13.:31:14.

rolling into the mass grave along with the other dead bodies. The

:31:15.:31:19.

pictures are absolutely chilling and produce an even more terrifying

:31:20.:31:23.

memory of the worst genocide of the 20th century. A survivor recounts a

:31:24.:31:28.

Daesh leader saying the Sydney must stand on one side, the Shia, the

:31:29.:31:34.

Kurds and the Yazidis on another. If I find Shia among the Sunnis, I will

:31:35.:31:39.

cut off his head with a sheet metal. Those are the words spoken by Daesh,

:31:40.:31:43.

who have a hatred of everyone not of their like. They are interrogated

:31:44.:31:48.

about beliefs, names, hometowns and other details. About 100 Shia

:31:49.:31:53.

prisoners were successful are pretending to be Sunni to escape

:31:54.:31:59.

further violence. The remaining Shia, Kurdish, Christian and Yazidi

:32:00.:32:04.

prisoners were searched. They took their money, watches, rings,

:32:05.:32:07.

jewellery, identity cards. One survivor said the more they got all

:32:08.:32:13.

of our possessions, I knew they would killers. The prisoners were

:32:14.:32:18.

given no food or water for 24 hours. They were promised surprise when

:32:19.:32:21.

they drove deeper into the desert. One arrived, the militants said, you

:32:22.:32:25.

will have water in paradise. The men were made to lie in -- line up in a

:32:26.:32:33.

single file, each person was forced to raise his hand and state his

:32:34.:32:37.

number. Survivors said many of the gunman were young, some appeared

:32:38.:32:46.

nervous, others excited. Some of them said they would eat well

:32:47.:32:50.

tonight. Madam Deputy Speaker, that is genocide. Further documented

:32:51.:32:53.

incidents include 1700 active captives executed in Tikrit in Iraq,

:32:54.:33:06.

hundreds in Mosul, Kurds massacred, including 700 children, 2000 women

:33:07.:33:10.

and children kidnapped, systematic hunting of members of ethnic and

:33:11.:33:13.

religious groups. In the words of the UN, that is genocide. Women

:33:14.:33:19.

raped and sold, young boys executed, girls and slaves for sexual abuse,

:33:20.:33:24.

children recruited as suicide bombers, more than 1 million

:33:25.:33:28.

refugees, half of them children. This might help the Minister, I hope

:33:29.:33:33.

it does, just to say what is happening in Northern Ireland. I am

:33:34.:33:37.

conscience of timing, at the Northern Ireland Assembly asked for

:33:38.:33:40.

direction from the Attorney General and they said that the violence

:33:41.:33:43.

currently being perpetrated against Christians and other minority

:33:44.:33:46.

religious groups, the Yazidis are members of certain Islamic

:33:47.:33:52.

communities constitutes genocide within the meaning of the December

:33:53.:33:56.

nine, 1948 UN Convention on the prevention and punishment up the

:33:57.:34:01.

crime of genocide, the Genocide Convention. A behaviour can be

:34:02.:34:08.

properly classified as genocide. The 30s consequences is the activation

:34:09.:34:16.

of the twofold thing contained in Article one to prevent and punish

:34:17.:34:18.

genocide. Article one that the contracting parties confirm that

:34:19.:34:22.

genocide, whether committed in time of peace or war, is a crime under

:34:23.:34:26.

international law which they undertake to prevent and punish.

:34:27.:34:31.

The day of reckoning is here for Daesh, the Attorney General the

:34:32.:34:33.

Northern Ireland Assembly 's. It seems that actual or potential

:34:34.:34:38.

victims of genocide have the right to the acknowledgement of their

:34:39.:34:40.

circumstances. Governments are undead corresponding duty to make

:34:41.:34:46.

these acknowledgements. The violence perpetrated against these groups, I

:34:47.:34:51.

do not have as -- hesitate to say, constitutes genocide. With that in

:34:52.:34:55.

mind, I hope the Minister can take the words of the Attorney General

:34:56.:34:59.

and what he has decreed in Northern Ireland. Legally, I believe, it

:35:00.:35:03.

helps the Minister to make this decision. Amnesty International's

:35:04.:35:07.

article, Ethnic Cleansing On An Historic Scale details with

:35:08.:35:14.

eyewitness Vesely seven more Daesh atrocities in Iraq, at least 100 men

:35:15.:35:19.

and boys herded together and shot to death, scores of men and boys

:35:20.:35:23.

executed, more than 50 men and boys rounded up, dead boys, raped girls

:35:24.:35:30.

and captive villagers gunned down for refusing to renounce their

:35:31.:35:33.

faith. They die everyday at the hands of Isis and Daesh. It is not a

:35:34.:35:39.

horror movie, I wish it was, it is taking place just a plane flight

:35:40.:35:43.

away from here. It is time that we call it what it is, it is

:35:44.:35:48.

systematic, it is genocide. It is a great pleasure to take place

:35:49.:35:54.

-- part in this important debate. I want to tell the Government that we

:35:55.:35:58.

need to be no doubt that if the vote is passed on this motion, it be

:35:59.:36:03.

ignored. Other motions have come forward, but this is at the very

:36:04.:36:08.

highest of seriousness and importance. We will not let it be

:36:09.:36:12.

ignored. We will return again and again until the Government properly

:36:13.:36:16.

makes that justified referral to the Security Council. I want to pay

:36:17.:36:20.

tribute to the member for Congleton, she has had enormous tributes and

:36:21.:36:25.

should have more. She is very much the voice of the voiceless, a

:36:26.:36:27.

champion of human dignity. Along with the noble and -- the noble lord

:36:28.:36:34.

Alton in the other Place, who is watching and has all his sterling

:36:35.:36:38.

work in trying to cajole and entice the Government to do what makes

:36:39.:36:41.

sense. It is about being a voice. A passionate speech from the member

:36:42.:36:46.

for Glasgow East not least brought to bear the voice of those who have

:36:47.:36:50.

those harrowing experiences, who have been the victims of the

:36:51.:36:53.

appalling actions of Isis. Richard was made by the Manor -- honourable

:36:54.:37:02.

member of the pub near Arce, the replicate you can see at Trafalgar

:37:03.:37:07.

Square -- the Palmyra Arce. I saw the unveiling of the Palmyra arch.

:37:08.:37:14.

The point made by the head about antiquities from Syria, he was proud

:37:15.:37:18.

that we could stand in solidarity. Solidarity with the Syrians, victims

:37:19.:37:22.

of appalling crimes. The replica Palmyra arch to -- provides a

:37:23.:37:27.

declaration of solidarity. We are doing that today, by declaring

:37:28.:37:32.

genocide. What he and the victims would want is a sport to -- us to do

:37:33.:37:40.

more, and this has teeth so it wants to encourage and ensure their legal

:37:41.:37:43.

obligations. The honourable member before said that the Palmyra arch

:37:44.:37:49.

basically says Isis can't win. They can't win. This motion is about

:37:50.:37:54.

saying that they can't win. They need to be held to account, there

:37:55.:38:00.

needs to be justice. What the head of UNESCO said about the

:38:01.:38:04.

destruction, whether it is the arch or churches, monasteries and shrines

:38:05.:38:11.

that have affected many groups, it is cultural genocide, they are all

:38:12.:38:13.

kinds, they need to be held to account. The Government has

:38:14.:38:18.

recognised the issue of cultural destruction, it needs to ensure

:38:19.:38:21.

there is accountability. That is why I very much hope and look forward to

:38:22.:38:27.

the Queen's Speech including the belated ratification of the Hague

:38:28.:38:30.

Convention and its second protocols. At the purpose is to show and

:38:31.:38:34.

accountability to cultural destruction. It would be

:38:35.:38:37.

extraordinary if we see the passage through, the passing of the Hague

:38:38.:38:41.

Convention on the ratification, showing accountability in relation

:38:42.:38:44.

to cultural destruction, but will not do what we should do which is

:38:45.:38:47.

ensure accountability for acts of genocide.

:38:48.:38:56.

The declaration needs to be made today that they can't win and it is

:38:57.:39:02.

passed unanimously and we also take action. I will go through the

:39:03.:39:05.

examples that have already been mentioned that Nick the case that

:39:06.:39:10.

there is not only deliberate brutalist targeting of culture, but

:39:11.:39:19.

also history and people. Kidnapping, in slaving. The UN report at least

:39:20.:39:29.

3500 people have been enslaved. Many executed. Many aren't jihadist

:39:30.:39:33.

website. The burgeoning command, convert or die. We are not simply

:39:34.:39:39.

acting out of solidarity or making a positional statement. It is

:39:40.:39:42.

important to hold the government here to account. What has the

:39:43.:39:48.

government done over recent times? In one sense there was a concern

:39:49.:39:52.

that we would have to categorise the government responses as walk on by.

:39:53.:39:59.

I say that sadly. To go back to the 16th of December and go back to an

:40:00.:40:05.

answer, we are not submitting any evidence of possible genocide

:40:06.:40:11.

against your CDs were Christians to international courts, nor have we

:40:12.:40:16.

been asked to. What an extraordinary thing that our government was going

:40:17.:40:20.

to sit on its hands. We know that the obligations in the genocide

:40:21.:40:24.

Convention have obligations on the top of themselves to take a view and

:40:25.:40:31.

to act upon it. The Minister in his place today seven April, this month,

:40:32.:40:38.

that we are helping to gather evidence that could be used to hold

:40:39.:40:43.

an ISP account appropriately. I would ask him to confirm that the

:40:44.:40:48.

government is doing that, there are properly referring to to the

:40:49.:40:51.

Security Council. How else could we categorise the response from the

:40:52.:40:55.

government? In some ways it is going around in circles. The Minister

:40:56.:41:01.

himself has preferred, saying that we as the government is not the

:41:02.:41:07.

judge and jury, it is done in the International courts and the

:41:08.:41:12.

Security Council. The Security Council has a key role to play. The

:41:13.:41:16.

Minister give himself away through this. The Security Council can make

:41:17.:41:20.

a feral and that is what this margin is about. The government can't just

:41:21.:41:24.

defer to the international courts and go around in circles. Many noble

:41:25.:41:30.

Lords signed a letter to the Prime Minister making this point, there is

:41:31.:41:36.

nothing to stop the government acting on its own view. The

:41:37.:41:42.

government has not taken the view itself, and I don't understand why,

:41:43.:41:46.

unlike other governments authorities. -- and authorities. I

:41:47.:41:56.

repeat the questions of those eminent Lords and QCs, why would the

:41:57.:42:08.

government renew its decision to not... Why are they making the

:42:09.:42:14.

proper means to means to go to the Security Council to ensure that the

:42:15.:42:17.

feral is made to the international court. We have to ask ourselves why.

:42:18.:42:23.

It's a big concern not just about the evidence of genocide, but the

:42:24.:42:27.

consequences, the legal consequences of that? Isn't unconcerned about the

:42:28.:42:34.

horror implications to pick them is, because at long last it would have

:42:35.:42:38.

the assurance that there will be justice, the perpetrators will be

:42:39.:42:42.

held to account. It is important that they are recognised as Vic

:42:43.:42:52.

rooms and can be restoration, in a real forum for lives that have been

:42:53.:42:58.

seriously damaged. The needs to be settlement and safety for refugees.

:42:59.:43:07.

They need to find safe passage. Today we are making a declaration.

:43:08.:43:12.

We are there in solidarity. We are also saying to the government but

:43:13.:43:16.

you must hold Isis to account for genocide. We will not let the

:43:17.:43:22.

government ignore this notion today. They must take action for the good

:43:23.:43:25.

of all those groups we have mentioned, and for the civilised

:43:26.:43:37.

world. I have to reduce the time limits of speeches to five minutes,

:43:38.:43:41.

with apologies I will call this Chamakh Durcan. Like others, I want

:43:42.:43:48.

to pay tribute to the honourable member for giving the house the

:43:49.:43:53.

opportunity to respond to the pleased that we have herds from a

:43:54.:44:02.

number of yes CD young woman who had come to the site is not just to tell

:44:03.:44:06.

us of their own experience bouts of those like them who remain in

:44:07.:44:07.

captivity. I am conscious that we have heard in

:44:08.:44:26.

recent months from Nadi mirror out who told us of her experiences in a

:44:27.:44:32.

meeting called by the honourable member from Argyll Bute and

:44:33.:44:36.

sponsored by the Parliamentary human rights group. We have heard from

:44:37.:44:43.

someone else in March. I want a page a bid to all of the honourable

:44:44.:44:49.

members who have hosted these women witnesses who have come to give us

:44:50.:45:00.

this testimony. I want to pay tribute to the honourable member for

:45:01.:45:04.

Canon Valley who has such experience in this region. What we heard from

:45:05.:45:12.

Nadi was that the Islamic State have one intention, to destroy the Yazidi

:45:13.:45:19.

identity by force, rape, the recruitment of children and the

:45:20.:45:23.

destruction of holy sites, especially against the Yazidi woman

:45:24.:45:28.

whether use rape as a means of destruction, and ensuring that these

:45:29.:45:31.

women will never return to normal life. It was not only me who

:45:32.:45:35.

suffered, it was a collective suffering, she said. The Islamic

:45:36.:45:40.

State given two choices, convert or die. The men were killed, women

:45:41.:45:47.

enslaved and the children recruited. She went on to speak of the

:45:48.:45:51.

desperate journeys that many people would try to make. When she appealed

:45:52.:45:57.

to us, she appealed to us not just to make sure that we moved to

:45:58.:46:00.

recognise the genocide that was happening to her people for what it

:46:01.:46:06.

was, and for other minorities including Christians in Iraq and

:46:07.:46:12.

Syria, she also asked us to open borders for my community. We are

:46:13.:46:15.

victims of the genocide and we have the right to seek a safe race where

:46:16.:46:18.

our dignity will be preserved. The request that you gave Yazidis the

:46:19.:46:24.

choice to resettle, and other threatened minorities, especially to

:46:25.:46:29.

the temp one on human trafficking, like Germany did. Nadi has written

:46:30.:46:35.

to us only this week. Again she has asked us to take up these points,

:46:36.:46:41.

not just in terms of recognising what they are suffering as genocide,

:46:42.:46:46.

but also to ask that the UK would undertake a programme similar to

:46:47.:46:52.

Germany, where a thousand women and girls were admitted for treatment

:46:53.:46:56.

and counselling on special to your visas. -- 8,000 Yazidi woman. We

:46:57.:47:08.

were told how thousands contemplated suicide because they knew when there

:47:09.:47:10.

are being separated into different groups at three o'clock in the

:47:11.:47:15.

morning in a sporting Hall in Mosul after a day of humiliated and

:47:16.:47:22.

molested travel by bus, she knew what was happening. She told tire

:47:23.:47:28.

after days of treatment like this a 17-year-old girl committed suicide

:47:29.:47:33.

after she learnt that Daesh had killed her family, she cut her

:47:34.:47:39.

wrists. In revenge the terrorists took her body and through to the

:47:40.:47:45.

dogs. We know from what we have heard that this is genocide. We

:47:46.:47:50.

should not be quibbling about this or hesitating. We know that the

:47:51.:47:53.

depraved crimes are unspeakable but that should not mean that we should

:47:54.:47:57.

not nameless for the genocide that it is. According to the UN, genocide

:47:58.:48:05.

is deliberately inflicting conditions designed to bring about

:48:06.:48:09.

the group's destruction, preventing births within the community or

:48:10.:48:13.

forcibly transferring its children. We know that those who are

:48:14.:48:17.

perpetrating these crimes are doing so to exterminate and extinguish a

:48:18.:48:22.

people. We know that they mean what they are doing to be genocide and to

:48:23.:48:28.

have all of the bloody awful consequences of genocide. We know

:48:29.:48:31.

that those suffering these terrible crimes know that it is genocide and

:48:32.:48:36.

it is meant as genocide. Why should we hesitate to say as a chamber we

:48:37.:48:40.

know what the word genocide means we know it is being committed against

:48:41.:48:46.

the Yazidi people? I agree with all of that and I want to follow one

:48:47.:48:50.

directly from the speech given by my honourable friend the member for

:48:51.:48:56.

Enfield Southgate. This is a vital motion. It is an important moment

:48:57.:49:02.

for the Minister. We want no more weasel words. We want him to accept

:49:03.:49:08.

this motion. We want to accept what we are calling for in this motion in

:49:09.:49:14.

clear explicit terms, we call on the government to make an immediate

:49:15.:49:18.

referral to the United Nations Security Council with a view to

:49:19.:49:22.

comparing jurisdiction upon the International Criminal Court. The

:49:23.:49:28.

attitude of the government up until now it has been based on precedents,

:49:29.:49:33.

but I don't believe that precedent in this case is enough given the

:49:34.:49:39.

horrors that are going on in the world. I would be delighted if the

:49:40.:49:48.

Minister, he can intervene on me now, if the government are going to

:49:49.:49:54.

accept this motion, then in the sense we have already won this

:49:55.:50:00.

debate. There is absolutely no point, in the Minister reducing the

:50:01.:50:06.

time that they are going to have the size to condemn Daesh, to mention

:50:07.:50:11.

all of the appalling act that they are doing, then saying at the end of

:50:12.:50:16.

that speech well I am very sorry but because of legal precedent, because

:50:17.:50:20.

of this circle argument that my honourable friend preferred to,

:50:21.:50:25.

because we the government think that it is for the courts to take the

:50:26.:50:29.

initiative, that we don't think it is appropriate for the government to

:50:30.:50:36.

take action. There is more than one person -- there is one person

:50:37.:50:42.

waiting to play his part, the prosecutor of the International

:50:43.:50:45.

Court waiting for the referral from the Security Council so he can

:50:46.:50:48.

properly hold these people to account. My honourable friend the

:50:49.:50:55.

Minister is sitting there, listening to what we are saying, he is likely

:50:56.:50:59.

to give a strong and powerful speech, he will not just condemn

:51:00.:51:04.

Daesh he will say, yes, we have listened to the debate, we have

:51:05.:51:08.

listened to the House of Commons, we are going to act on the this to the

:51:09.:51:13.

Security Council. Let's look at the facts, just in terms of pure legal

:51:14.:51:22.

argument, which has nothing to do with a motion -- emotion. The

:51:23.:51:32.

criteria set forth by the 1948 act on the prevention of genocide is

:51:33.:51:38.

clear. The crime is being committed with intent to destroy in whole or

:51:39.:51:43.

in part and national, ethnical, racial or religious group. It then

:51:44.:51:50.

lists five qualifying conditions. Killing members of the group.

:51:51.:51:54.

Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group.

:51:55.:51:59.

Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of lives calculated to

:52:00.:52:05.

bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part. Imposing

:52:06.:52:10.

measures intended to prevent births within the group. Forcibly

:52:11.:52:14.

transferring children of the group to another group. Now, it is

:52:15.:52:20.

obviously clear, completely blatant, that conditions, the first three

:52:21.:52:27.

conditions, are in effect and are going on in those areas under Daesh

:52:28.:52:34.

control. It is vital to recall that even if just one of those conditions

:52:35.:52:39.

is met the declaring of acts as genocidal is allowed. So on the

:52:40.:52:45.

clearest legal criteria there is absolutely no doubt that genocide is

:52:46.:52:52.

being committed. It is therefore the duty of Her Majesty's government, in

:52:53.:52:57.

terms of humanity and not just in terms of legal arguments, to do its

:52:58.:53:05.

duty now, to stop prevaricating and to refer this to the Security

:53:06.:53:08.

Council and to accept this motion. It would be intolerable either for

:53:09.:53:15.

the governments to whip against this motion and to force members of the

:53:16.:53:21.

payroll to vote against their own conscience or abstain and it would

:53:22.:53:26.

also be intolerable if the government by some sleight of hand

:53:27.:53:32.

was to allow this motion to go forward and then to say that it was

:53:33.:53:39.

not binding on the government. If this motion is passed today, and I

:53:40.:53:43.

sincerely hope that neither the Minister will speak against it, nor

:53:44.:53:47.

will the whips be putting in against that, if this motion is passed by a

:53:48.:53:50.

love House of Commons has spoken. The House of Commons has spoken and

:53:51.:54:00.

the Government should act. Let's be absolutely clear, there have been so

:54:01.:54:05.

many powerful speeches, the most powerful of all given by the

:54:06.:54:09.

honourable lady for Glasgow East. Why was it so moving? Why so

:54:10.:54:15.

powerful? Because it is the explicit personal experience of somebody who

:54:16.:54:22.

was talking about girls of nine years old being raped and killed by

:54:23.:54:27.

this murderous cult. I myself have visited this area. Of all the

:54:28.:54:32.

villages, the Christian villages I visited, 19 have been taken over by

:54:33.:54:39.

Daesh, only one remains. We actually visited the tomb of a profit, and we

:54:40.:54:44.

saw what he wrote. Your people are scattered on the mountains with

:54:45.:54:48.

known to gather them in, and the gates of your land are wide open to

:54:49.:54:53.

your foes. Enough is enough, I call on the Government to act. Thank you,

:54:54.:55:00.

Madam Deputy Speaker. It was not my intention to speak in this debate,

:55:01.:55:05.

because the speeches, as the honourable member for Gainsborough

:55:06.:55:12.

said, has been so powerful, so poignant, so come howling, that I

:55:13.:55:19.

felt I could not add very much. Except that I for many years

:55:20.:55:23.

gathered evidence on Iraqi war crimes, and in this chamber for week

:55:24.:55:27.

after week after week I argued that the prosecution -- I argued for the

:55:28.:55:35.

prosecution for Iraqi war crimes for human rights abuses, crimes against

:55:36.:55:41.

humanity and genocide. I am very happy to support this motion

:55:42.:55:47.

tonight, because the case has been made over and over again. I also

:55:48.:55:53.

raise the case of the Yazidis in September 20 14. I put forward an

:55:54.:56:00.

early day motion at that time calling for action, saying that this

:56:01.:56:03.

house is extremely concerned about the genocidal campaign being waged

:56:04.:56:09.

against minorities in Iraq by Isis, due to alarming evidence recently

:56:10.:56:14.

collected by Amnesty International about the brutal campaign to

:56:15.:56:19.

obliterate all trades of non-Arabs and non-Sony macro Muslims which has

:56:20.:56:23.

turned the area into blood-soaked killing fields. I have been shocked

:56:24.:56:28.

by the barbaric treatment of Yazidis and so on. Many Yazidis, both in

:56:29.:56:33.

northern Iraq itself, after some of the Peshmerga and the campaign for

:56:34.:56:40.

human rights in northern Iraq, it actually rescued some of those women

:56:41.:56:45.

and it ought them on the open market. They were calling them for

:56:46.:56:51.

additional assistance from us. We have given humanitarian assistance,

:56:52.:56:54.

I think we could have done much more. A lot of tears have been shed

:56:55.:57:00.

about the Yazidis, but I would have liked to have seen much more

:57:01.:57:07.

practical help given to the Peshmergas to assist in the

:57:08.:57:14.

liberation of those thousands of women. And thousands of Yazidi women

:57:15.:57:17.

are still captive, we should be aware of that and ready to give

:57:18.:57:25.

whatever assistance. Can I stress the importance of collecting

:57:26.:57:27.

evidence? I know the Minister has previously said when you are talking

:57:28.:57:33.

about genocide, such matters are determined first in the

:57:34.:57:38.

international courts, and in the United Nations Security Council.

:57:39.:57:43.

We're helping to gather evidence which can be used to hold Daesh to

:57:44.:57:51.

account. I hope we can tell them how we will collect the evidence. When I

:57:52.:57:57.

collected evidence, it was over a seven-year period. We were not

:57:58.:58:03.

assisted by our Government at that time. We had many macro from the

:58:04.:58:09.

Americans and from the Kuwaitis, but we had to do it ourselves. We

:58:10.:58:13.

collected at over seven years, and when Saddam Hussein and is the other

:58:14.:58:22.

man were eventually brought to justice, it was on some of the

:58:23.:58:25.

evidence that we collected. I would be grateful if the Minister could be

:58:26.:58:30.

very precise about the way we are assisting in collecting that

:58:31.:58:35.

evidence. Obviously that would be extremely important, as has been the

:58:36.:58:40.

case for the Iraqis, and eventually we saw Saddam Hussein and others

:58:41.:58:48.

convicted on the crime of genocide. And I hope that we will support this

:58:49.:58:55.

motion today. I hope it is put to a vote, I think it is essential that

:58:56.:58:59.

we make it clear that this is the view of this House of Commons

:59:00.:59:06.

unbearable not be any more delay. I am very proud to be a signatory to

:59:07.:59:12.

this motion today, so ably moved by my honourable friend for Congleton,

:59:13.:59:15.

to whom rightful tributes have richly been paid. I would also like

:59:16.:59:21.

to pay tribute to those members of the other place who have also made

:59:22.:59:27.

an enormous contribution to this battle. The noble lord Lord Alton,

:59:28.:59:35.

my noble friend Lord Forsyth, Baroness Cox and Baroness Mickelson

:59:36.:59:40.

and many others. This is a big campaign across both Houses of

:59:41.:59:44.

Parliament on behalf, as the honourable member for Ealing North

:59:45.:59:49.

said, of the British people. The question we have to decide today is

:59:50.:59:56.

has Daesh been, as it were, convicted by us of committing

:59:57.:00:01.

genocide? The United States think so, that is the verdict of Congress

:00:02.:00:08.

and Secretary of State Kerry. My honourable friend the Minister, who

:00:09.:00:12.

will wind up in a few moments, that is his view, although that has been

:00:13.:00:17.

tempered by his reference to the need for is to present evidence to

:00:18.:00:21.

the United Nations for prosecutions to take place as so many others have

:00:22.:00:28.

said. My view is that this debate today in this place, following the

:00:29.:00:32.

debate that took place on the 3rd of February in the other place, shows

:00:33.:00:37.

that the case that Daesh has been engaged in genocide has been made.

:00:38.:00:43.

We have heard some very powerful testimonies. The honourable member

:00:44.:00:47.

for Glasgow East, I think, captivated the house with what she

:00:48.:00:51.

said. I nearly said my honourable friend, for Ealing North, but we are

:00:52.:00:58.

very good friends. His evidence, too. And my honourable friend for

:00:59.:01:03.

Gainsborough set out the legal conditions that apply under the 1948

:01:04.:01:11.

Convention. It seems to me that it cannot be the case that none of

:01:12.:01:16.

those five conditions has not been met. It seems to me that those

:01:17.:01:21.

conditions have been met fulsomely. Of course I give way. If this is not

:01:22.:01:34.

genocide, then what is it -- what is genocide? I have not had the

:01:35.:01:38.

privilege of meeting these people, as so many honourable members have,

:01:39.:01:43.

but I'm extremely moved by the testimony that so many rate

:01:44.:01:46.

honourable members have made today, and I am not sure how any normal

:01:47.:01:51.

person listening to the debate today can possibly come to any other

:01:52.:01:56.

conclusion that what has been going on has been genocide, is genocide,

:01:57.:02:02.

to this day, that Christians, Yazidis and others are being wiped

:02:03.:02:08.

out. That is, as so many people have said, the intention. It is not a

:02:09.:02:12.

by-product of some of the policy, the intention is to wipe them out. I

:02:13.:02:18.

wish to be brief, so I will conclude by saying that I think we have three

:02:19.:02:25.

very powerful reasons why we should take action and why the Government

:02:26.:02:31.

should listen. The first is that we are a permanent member of the United

:02:32.:02:35.

Nations security Council. That is referred this matter to ourselves.

:02:36.:02:40.

That should not be too difficult. We have an important role in the UN, we

:02:41.:02:48.

should fulfil it. Secondly, to the great tragedy of this nation, it is,

:02:49.:02:53.

unfortunately, our fellow citizens who are involved and steeped in

:02:54.:03:00.

blood. They are competent in this genocide. We therefore have a locus.

:03:01.:03:06.

Thirdly, we are a Christian country, these are fellow Christians being

:03:07.:03:12.

persecuted, and I think that we cannot, as my noble friend Lord

:03:13.:03:15.

Forsyth said in the other place, walk by on the other side. I think

:03:16.:03:20.

we owe it to them to take action. As we will be reminding ourselves

:03:21.:03:25.

tomorrow, we have a sovereign who is also the supreme Governor of the

:03:26.:03:31.

Church of England. It is part of our country. I wish to conclude, Madam

:03:32.:03:37.

Deputy Speaker, by referring to the words of Major General Tim Cross, my

:03:38.:03:42.

own constituents, who has been giving evidence recently in the

:03:43.:03:47.

other place. He said there can be no doubt that genocide has been carried

:03:48.:03:51.

out on Yazidi and Christian communities, and the international

:03:52.:03:56.

community's failure to recognise what is happening will be to our

:03:57.:04:00.

collective shame in years to come. I hope that the Government will listen

:04:01.:04:04.

to the collective view of the words of this house and of the other place

:04:05.:04:11.

and act on behalf of the British people against this appalling

:04:12.:04:14.

genocide taking place against our fellow Christians and so many

:04:15.:04:20.

others. In 1994I was living a few hundred miles away from where nearly

:04:21.:04:26.

a million people were killed in the course of three months in a genocide

:04:27.:04:31.

in Rwanda. At that time, the international community, both before

:04:32.:04:35.

the genocide started and after, was too slow to act and recognise this

:04:36.:04:39.

crime against humanity, and as a result I believe more people died

:04:40.:04:43.

than necessary. This is another such occasion when we have heard the

:04:44.:04:47.

evidence, we need to say quite categorically that this is genocide,

:04:48.:04:52.

we should recognise that now. If not now, when?

:04:53.:04:59.

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. AI also begin by congratulating my

:05:00.:05:03.

honourable friend the members Congleton for bringing this

:05:04.:05:09.

important debate to the floor? Judging by the contributions we have

:05:10.:05:12.

heard this afternoon, I don't think anybody can be in any doubt

:05:13.:05:15.

whatsoever that this house believes that what has happened to the

:05:16.:05:19.

Christian and Yazidi communities of northern Iraq and Syria is genocide.

:05:20.:05:23.

What station have been involved in is genocide. We should not shy away

:05:24.:05:28.

from describing it exactly is that -- what Daesh have been involved in.

:05:29.:05:33.

There have been excellent contributions to the debate, I don't

:05:34.:05:35.

have time to highlight every single one but, if I may point out one or

:05:36.:05:40.

two macro particularly, the honourable member for Liverpool West

:05:41.:05:45.

Derby, the chair of the International development committee,

:05:46.:05:49.

bringing his considerable international weight to the debate

:05:50.:05:52.

is very welcome. The honourable member for Eastbourne, who gave a

:05:53.:05:56.

compelling case for this to be called genocide. The honourable

:05:57.:06:01.

member four at the Fleet Southgate who told the Government that under

:06:02.:06:05.

no circumstances would this be allowed to be brushed under the

:06:06.:06:11.

carpet or forgotten and ignored. I, too, was extremely moved by the

:06:12.:06:15.

contribution from my honourable friend the member for Glasgow East,

:06:16.:06:19.

a very personal and moving testimony which I heard last night for the

:06:20.:06:24.

first time, it was equally moving to hear it again this afternoon. And my

:06:25.:06:27.

honourable friend the member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber, who chew a

:06:28.:06:35.

para girl -- chew a parallel with Europe in the 1940s and what we are

:06:36.:06:38.

currently with Singh in Syria and Iraq. -- what we are currently with

:06:39.:06:45.

the sink. There were excellent contributions, much of it harrowing

:06:46.:06:48.

and at times difficult to listen to, but it is important that the voices

:06:49.:06:52.

heard. Because if we can do nothing else, then we owe it to the people

:06:53.:06:56.

who have been the victims of Daesh barbarism, those who have been

:06:57.:07:01.

subject to a level after property that sometimes defies comprehension.

:07:02.:07:05.

And we had to hear what they had to say, we have to listen when a call

:07:06.:07:10.

for help. And what is it they are asking of us? It is simply that this

:07:11.:07:17.

government recognises what has happened to them and recognises that

:07:18.:07:23.

it is genocide, and it refers their case to the United Nations Security

:07:24.:07:29.

Council. So that the International criminal Court can bring those who

:07:30.:07:31.

perpetrate these awful crimes to justice. I do not think that that is

:07:32.:07:37.

too much to ask. And all the evidence is there. But what is

:07:38.:07:41.

happening in Syria and Iraq and the areas under Daesh control is,

:07:42.:07:43.

indeed, genocide. Sometimes there is a reluctance on

:07:44.:07:58.

the part of the government to recognise genocide is taking place.

:07:59.:08:06.

We have a moral obligation to say this is genocide. The Council of

:08:07.:08:18.

Europe, the European Parliament, the United States Congress, the

:08:19.:08:22.

Secretary of State, John Kerry, and his Holiness Pope Francis have all

:08:23.:08:26.

recognised that this is genocide and it is time that we add our voice to

:08:27.:08:33.

that list. It is the list -- the least we can do. Genocide is a crime

:08:34.:08:38.

directed against a specific group of people because of what they are as

:08:39.:08:42.

an entity. The murders that inevitably follow our direct did

:08:43.:08:48.

against people not because of who they are as individuals, but because

:08:49.:08:53.

they are a member of the group or a community. Genocide is not

:08:54.:08:58.

spontaneous, it is calculated, it is organised and it is planned.

:08:59.:09:03.

Genocide requires intent to bring about the destruction of the group

:09:04.:09:07.

of people because of who they are or what they believe. It is this intent

:09:08.:09:13.

to destroy that distinguishes genocide from other crimes. There

:09:14.:09:18.

can be no doubt that Daesh's treatment of the Christian, Yazidi

:09:19.:09:23.

and other minority religions meet that criteria. As Daesh separate

:09:24.:09:30.

with the intent to set that any culture or religion that differs

:09:31.:09:37.

from theirs. In the summer of 2014, Daesh seized the northern Iraqi city

:09:38.:09:42.

of Mosul. Almost the entire Christian community fled for their

:09:43.:09:48.

lives meaning for the first time in 1800 years there was no Sunday mass

:09:49.:09:54.

seven that city. As they fled, the patriarch of Baghdad told the world

:09:55.:09:57.

Christians have fled their villages, they are walking on foot in Iraq's

:09:58.:10:04.

searing summer heat. They are facing catastrophe and a real genocide. As

:10:05.:10:09.

we have heard, the overall fall in numbers of Christians living in Iraq

:10:10.:10:16.

is alarming. In 2003 there were 1.5 million. Today, there are barely

:10:17.:10:21.

250,000. It is a similar situation in Syria. All of this is part of a

:10:22.:10:28.

deliberate strategic campaign of fear design to completely annihilate

:10:29.:10:32.

minority religious groups from the Middle East. As the member for

:10:33.:10:43.

Liverpool West Derby said, I was fortunate earlier this year to meet

:10:44.:10:47.

a remarkable young Yazidi woman, Nadia. We met because of a

:10:48.:10:56.

constituent of mine was up late one night with a child that couldn't

:10:57.:11:00.

sleep and she heard on the radio the story that she heard, a story of a

:11:01.:11:03.

teenage girl from Northern Iraq who have been kidnapped I Daesh. She was

:11:04.:11:08.

so moved that what she heard that Fiona decided to do something about

:11:09.:11:12.

it. She raised awareness of the plight of the Yazidi immunity, she

:11:13.:11:18.

raised funds locally and she contacted me as a member of

:11:19.:11:22.

Parliament. We organised for Nadia to come to the United Kingdom in

:11:23.:11:27.

February. I know that members of both houses attended that meeting

:11:28.:11:32.

and were all incredibly moved by her first-hand testimony. It was a

:11:33.:11:38.

harrowing listen. If I could share a few sentences from what you told us.

:11:39.:11:42.

She said we the women and children were taken by a bus to a school.

:11:43.:11:46.

They humiliated us along the way, they touched us in a shameful way.

:11:47.:11:52.

They took me to Mosul with 150 other Yazidi families. There were

:11:53.:11:56.

thousands of families in the building, including children who

:11:57.:12:00.

were given away as gifts. One of the men came up to me, he wanted to take

:12:01.:12:06.

me. I look down at the floor I was terrified. On a laptop I saw a huge

:12:07.:12:10.

man, he was like a monster. I cried out that I was too young. He kicked

:12:11.:12:14.

me in BP. A few minutes later another man came up to me. I was

:12:15.:12:19.

still looking at the floor. I saw he was smaller so I begged for him to

:12:20.:12:23.

take me because I was terribly afraid of the first man. The man who

:12:24.:12:26.

took me asked me to change my religion. I refused. He to me and

:12:27.:12:32.

asked for my hand in what they called a marriage. A few days later

:12:33.:12:35.

this man forced me to get dressed and put on make-up and on that night

:12:36.:12:40.

he did terrible things. He forced me to serve in his military company. He

:12:41.:12:45.

humiliated me dearly and he forced me to wear clothes that barely

:12:46.:12:49.

covered my body. At night he beat me, he took my clothes off and put

:12:50.:12:53.

me in a room with guards who proceeded to commit the crimes until

:12:54.:12:58.

I fainted. Tragically, as we have heard in this place, Nadia's story

:12:59.:13:05.

is far from unique. I too was the UN another woman gave her testimony

:13:06.:13:13.

last night. Genocide is a deliberate and systematic extermination of fire

:13:14.:13:19.

national, racial, political or cultural group. By any measure, what

:13:20.:13:24.

Daesh have been doing to the Christian and Yazidi minorities in

:13:25.:13:28.

Iraq and Syria is genocide. I urge the Minister to listen to the boys

:13:29.:13:32.

of the people, listen to the voice of this House, remember the

:13:33.:13:36.

barbarities suffered by the Christians and the temp three and

:13:37.:13:39.

declare that this is a genocide. Then we can start the process of

:13:40.:13:42.

bringing the perpetrators to justice. They Johnson. I would like

:13:43.:13:50.

to start by congratulating the honourable for Congleton and the

:13:51.:13:56.

members from Ross on Wye, Strangford, Stoke on Trent, and East

:13:57.:14:02.

Ham on securing the debate today. And for all they have done to raise

:14:03.:14:06.

this issue in a note of the house. I would like to personally thank the

:14:07.:14:11.

honourable member for Congleton for arranging that evidence session last

:14:12.:14:14.

night, although listening to the harrowing testimony, I think it

:14:15.:14:20.

touched all members present. I would also like to pay tribute to those

:14:21.:14:24.

members on the other players who have been raising this issue for

:14:25.:14:28.

some time, led by my noble friend Baroness Kennedy. There have been

:14:29.:14:32.

many excellent contribution in today's debate from both sides of

:14:33.:14:37.

the house and it does appear to me that the house is united in its view

:14:38.:14:40.

about what the government should do next. I want to start by saying

:14:41.:14:44.

something about the nature of the crimes against the Yazidis and

:14:45.:14:50.

others we have heard about today. We have heard from many members on all

:14:51.:14:54.

sides, Daesh have perpetrated the most heinous of crimes against

:14:55.:15:00.

Yazidis, as well as other ethnic and religious minorities, including

:15:01.:15:04.

Assyrian Christians and various non-Sunni Muslim people in the area

:15:05.:15:09.

of northern Iraq that they currently control. These crimes include mass

:15:10.:15:16.

murder, torture, enslavement and unimaginable sexual violence,

:15:17.:15:19.

including systematic rape, often of children. Just returning to what's

:15:20.:15:27.

said last night in testimony, the thing that will stay with me is

:15:28.:15:29.

hearing about that nine-year-old girl repeatedly gang rape to her

:15:30.:15:35.

when her body could not take it, could not take the brutality of the

:15:36.:15:39.

assault any more, she was murdered in the most horrific of

:15:40.:15:43.

circumstances. These are crimes most of us will struggle to comprehend.

:15:44.:15:47.

As we have heard today, these are not crimes that are being randomly

:15:48.:15:52.

perpetrated. They are organised crime is deliberately targeted at

:15:53.:15:58.

the typical -- particular ethnic or religious groups. Amnesty

:15:59.:15:59.

International has described these act as ethnic cleansing on an

:16:00.:16:08.

historic scale. Many members have preferred to the first-hand

:16:09.:16:11.

testimonies that they have heard from survivors and those who have

:16:12.:16:14.

worked directly with them. I would like to pay tribute to the

:16:15.:16:19.

unbelievable bravery of all of the survivors who have spoken out to

:16:20.:16:25.

alert the world to the plight of the Yazidi population. Leading survivors

:16:26.:16:28.

has really brought home to me that this is not some historic event, it

:16:29.:16:33.

is an ongoing atrocity affecting thousands of people. The plight of

:16:34.:16:38.

those that is highlighted by this quote from someone who have 45

:16:39.:16:46.

relatives, all women and children, abducted I Daesh fighters. He

:16:47.:16:52.

described the daily hell this situation has wrought. He said this,

:16:53.:16:57.

can you imagine these little ones in the hands of those criminals? Alena

:16:58.:17:01.

is barely three. Joe was abducted with her mother and her

:17:02.:17:06.

nine-month-old sister and Rosalind, five, was at that but her mother and

:17:07.:17:12.

her three brothers, aged eight to 12. We get news from some of them,

:17:13.:17:16.

but others are missing and we don't know what they are alive or dead or

:17:17.:17:20.

what has happened to them. This case is far from unique, which is why

:17:21.:17:27.

this debate is so important. I want to move on to comment on the

:17:28.:17:31.

specific definition of genocide. The there is no doubt that the crimes

:17:32.:17:37.

that Daesh have committed are horrendous, the motion in front of

:17:38.:17:40.

us ask us to consider if they reach the threshold of genocide. Genocide

:17:41.:17:46.

is not a term we use often. It is a term we reserve for the most heinous

:17:47.:17:50.

of crimes and it has a specific meaning. For a set of crimes to

:17:51.:17:56.

constitute a genocide they must include the killing or serious harm

:17:57.:18:01.

including sexual harm of a group of people who have a specific ethnic,

:18:02.:18:07.

religious or racial card stick. The Labour Party has consistently argued

:18:08.:18:11.

that the crimes committed by Daesh appear to reach this threshold and

:18:12.:18:15.

therefore it is right for the UK's River Aire this matter to the UN

:18:16.:18:19.

Security Council for a final determination. I am pleased to say

:18:20.:18:26.

this evening that we will be supporting the motion in front of

:18:27.:18:31.

us. And if this House passes the motion in front of us today, as I

:18:32.:18:36.

hope we will do, it will be an historic moment. I have not been

:18:37.:18:41.

able to find another instance where the House of Commons has formally

:18:42.:18:46.

recognised an ongoing conflict as genocide and as we have heard,

:18:47.:18:50.

similar emotions have already been passed in the US House of

:18:51.:18:53.

Representatives and indeed European Parliament. In March, are United

:18:54.:18:58.

Nations panel concluded that Daesh might have reached the threshold and

:18:59.:19:01.

that the United States government announced that they consider the

:19:02.:19:06.

actions of Daesh constituted a genocide. This is only the second

:19:07.:19:11.

time that they have recognised an ongoing conflict as a genocide, as

:19:12.:19:16.

well. I just want to turn to the protection for the Yazidis. The

:19:17.:19:21.

designation of genocide is important, but not just because we

:19:22.:19:24.

do it rarely, but it is important because it will show -- it shows the

:19:25.:19:32.

intent to end the atrocities and to ensure that the perpetrators face

:19:33.:19:36.

justice. I hope the Minister will be able to reassure some both of these

:19:37.:19:40.

points and he responds. Firstly, the opposition would seek an assurance

:19:41.:19:43.

that the government will recognise the wishes of the house if this

:19:44.:19:49.

motion was passed this afternoon, and referred the matter to the

:19:50.:19:54.

Security Council on the feral to the International Criminal Court. The

:19:55.:19:57.

Minister told the house last week that the UK was assisting in the

:19:58.:20:03.

collection of evidence. We welcome this. I would be grateful if the

:20:04.:20:07.

Minister could layout in more detail the nature of what this technical

:20:08.:20:13.

support will involve. I read honourable friends raised this

:20:14.:20:20.

issue. Also, the issue about forensic investigative support and

:20:21.:20:23.

how that will be provided. That was also raised by the chair of the

:20:24.:20:29.

International Development Select Committee. Secondly, I want to ask

:20:30.:20:32.

the Minister about the action of the UK is taking to protect the Yazidis

:20:33.:20:37.

and other ethnic minority communities in Iraq. It is clear

:20:38.:20:42.

that all states have a duty to prevent genocide, primarily this

:20:43.:20:45.

responsibility sets with the state with a genocide is committed.

:20:46.:20:49.

Tragically, her backers failed to protect the Yazidis and other ethnic

:20:50.:20:53.

minorities citizens, therefore it is right that the UK and other states

:20:54.:20:57.

offer support to Iraq in the fight against Daesh. Can the Minister

:20:58.:21:02.

explained what specific action in the UK is taking to assist in the

:21:03.:21:06.

protection of the Yazidis and offer them security? I want to press the

:21:07.:21:10.

Minister on the humanitarian assistance given by the UK to the

:21:11.:21:16.

survivors of the Daesh attack. Many Yazidis Allan Nyom refugee camps run

:21:17.:21:20.

by the Kurdistan government in Northern Iraq. These people are not

:21:21.:21:24.

classed as refugees by the United Nations because they are internally

:21:25.:21:28.

displaced but we must recognise these people have been displaced

:21:29.:21:32.

from their homes and they feel incredibly vulnerable. Will the

:21:33.:21:36.

Minister explain what steps the government are taking to support

:21:37.:21:39.

these people? It is important to note that none of these people that

:21:40.:21:43.

we are discussing today are eligible for relocation to the UK under the

:21:44.:21:49.

government scheme. I am extremely disappointed that the government has

:21:50.:21:52.

consistently refused to offer sanctuary to any of these groups. I

:21:53.:21:57.

think there are compelling arguments for recognising the special needs of

:21:58.:22:00.

the survivors and the need they have to be given a safe space and

:22:01.:22:05.

specialist psychiatric support. This is particularly true for the women

:22:06.:22:08.

and children did. Already, Germany has done this and I met a few weeks

:22:09.:22:14.

ago at Yazidi woman who had been enslaved and he had escaped and was

:22:15.:22:18.

offered two years protection in Germany. This is the key, with

:22:19.:22:23.

specialist psychiatric support. The Minister Romney said last week that

:22:24.:22:27.

the German scheme required the woman to travel to Europe before they

:22:28.:22:31.

could access the scheme. This is untrue. The German scheme takes

:22:32.:22:36.

people from the region and they hope the Minister would reflect on what

:22:37.:22:39.

Germany is doing and offer the same protection to victims of what I

:22:40.:22:43.

think we all agreed to date his genocide. In conclusion, the people

:22:44.:22:47.

of this country do not walk on by when they see evil being perpetrated

:22:48.:22:53.

against fellow human beings and what is happening to the Yazidis and

:22:54.:22:57.

others is evil. We want our country to stand up and declare solidarity

:22:58.:23:01.

with these people and preferred what is happening to the Security

:23:02.:23:04.

Council. We believe genocide is being committed and they hope the

:23:05.:23:08.

whole house can come together this evening in supporting this motion

:23:09.:23:09.

before us. Thank you very much, Madam Deputy

:23:10.:23:22.

Speaker. This has been, I think, an excellent debate and, I'm afraid,

:23:23.:23:28.

time prevents me from being to answer all the questions, and as I

:23:29.:23:31.

have dinner on previous occasions I will write to honourable members in

:23:32.:23:34.

detail. Some excellent ideas and thoughts have come through, such as

:23:35.:23:38.

the protection of mass graves and the global boy for religious

:23:39.:23:44.

freedom. I will be in touch on those matters -- the global envoy. Can I

:23:45.:23:48.

congratulate the members the Congleton on securing this important

:23:49.:23:55.

debate? I have listened, number ten has listened, indeed, the nation has

:23:56.:23:59.

listened to the will of the chamber today, that is very important

:24:00.:24:03.

indeed. I commend the efforts of members on all sides of the house

:24:04.:24:07.

who have worked tirelessly to ensure that the voices of the murdered,

:24:08.:24:11.

persecuted or silenced by Daesh are heard. The harrowing accounts we

:24:12.:24:17.

have heard today of the brutal persecution of Christians, Yazidis

:24:18.:24:20.

and other religious and ethnic minorities are heartbreaking. Some

:24:21.:24:25.

of these communities have lived peacefully, side by side, for

:24:26.:24:29.

generations before this barbaric organisation forced them to flee

:24:30.:24:34.

their homes. Daesh's crimes go beyond the horrors of rape and

:24:35.:24:38.

murder, they have destroyed a generations old culture. The

:24:39.:24:43.

Government has repeatedly made it clear are at a condemnation of the

:24:44.:24:48.

unspeakable crimes Daesh commits against Christians, Yazidis under

:24:49.:24:52.

the communities, including Muslims, who still account for the majority

:24:53.:24:55.

of victims. We are working tirelessly to defeat Daesh and put

:24:56.:25:00.

an end to the violence. If this is not the first time I have commented

:25:01.:25:04.

on this matter, it is now the third time, that I repeat what I said in

:25:05.:25:09.

Foreign Office questions last week. I believe genocide has taken place.

:25:10.:25:15.

But as the Prime Minister has said, genocide is a matter of legal rather

:25:16.:25:18.

than political opinion. We as the Government are not the prosecutor,

:25:19.:25:25.

judge or jury of such matters, they are for the UN security council.

:25:26.:25:31.

However, we have a place... I will not give way. We have a place on the

:25:32.:25:35.

UN Security Council, which is important, I will come to that in

:25:36.:25:39.

due course. Any referral to the International criminal Court by the

:25:40.:25:45.

UN security council will only be possible with a united council. And

:25:46.:25:50.

ideally with the cooperation of countries in which alleged crimes

:25:51.:25:56.

have been committed. But I draw the attention of the house, when efforts

:25:57.:26:01.

were made to refer the situation in Syria to the ICC in 2014, it was due

:26:02.:26:08.

to -- it was vetoed by Russia and China. We expect any Security

:26:09.:26:15.

Council resolution seeking to refer the situations in Iraq or Syria to

:26:16.:26:20.

the agency could be blocked again. But further discussions are taking

:26:21.:26:25.

place, we are in a different place than in 2014. I will not give way.

:26:26.:26:31.

Whilst a UN security Council referral to the International Crown

:26:32.:26:36.

Court is one option, there are other potential options for bringing Daesh

:26:37.:26:44.

to justice. In the meantime, we support the gathering and production

:26:45.:26:48.

of evidence which could be used eventually and a quarter to hold

:26:49.:26:53.

Daesh to account. I believe there is a strong case to be answered, but to

:26:54.:26:58.

clarify how we must consider genocide itself, as other honourable

:26:59.:27:00.

members have mentioned, this refers to the act is committed with intent

:27:01.:27:06.

to destroy in whole or in part a national, ethical, religious or

:27:07.:27:10.

racial group. We must also consider crimes against humanity, which

:27:11.:27:16.

refers to acts committed as part of a widespread systematic attack

:27:17.:27:21.

directed against any civilian population, including murder,

:27:22.:27:25.

extermination, enslavement, deportation, imprisonment, torture,

:27:26.:27:29.

rape, sexual slavery and other sexual violence. War crimes also

:27:30.:27:34.

refers to grave breaches of the Geneva conventions. It may well

:27:35.:27:41.

transpire that all three cases apply in this instance. That is why we

:27:42.:27:46.

will do everything we can to help gather evidence that could be used

:27:47.:27:50.

by the judicial bodies who are the appropriate people to judge these to

:27:51.:27:55.

make a judgment on this matter. It is vital that this is done now

:27:56.:28:01.

before evidence is lost or, indeed, destroyed because, ultimately, this

:28:02.:28:05.

is a question for the courts to decide. It is not the government is

:28:06.:28:09.

to be the prosecutor, the judge or the jury. As the Prime Minister also

:28:10.:28:14.

said, not only are the courts best placed to judge criminal matters,

:28:15.:28:18.

but there are impartial to you also ensures the protection of the UK

:28:19.:28:21.

Government from the political eyes Asian and controversies that so

:28:22.:28:31.

often are attached to the term of genocide. It is critical that the

:28:32.:28:35.

decisions are based on credible judicial process. But it does not

:28:36.:28:38.

mean we wash our hands up this issue. Right now, the priority has

:28:39.:28:43.

been to prevent atrocities from taking place, which is why we are

:28:44.:28:47.

playing a leading role in the global coalition against I should. --

:28:48.:28:54.

against Daesh. In the long term, we must hold Daesh to account for the

:28:55.:28:58.

atrocities they are committing. The evidence were helping to gather now

:28:59.:29:01.

will ensure that the perpetrators are these crimes will always note

:29:02.:29:05.

that there is a threat of prosecution hanging over them. Make

:29:06.:29:10.

no mistake, Madam Deputy Speaker, British and international justice

:29:11.:29:13.

has a long reach and a long memory. We will track down those committing

:29:14.:29:18.

these acts and told them to account, no matter how long it takes. -- and

:29:19.:29:23.

hold them to account. It took over a decade to track down Radovan

:29:24.:29:27.

Karadzic, but last month he was convicted and held to account for

:29:28.:29:32.

his crimes. The UK is taking a lead on the international response to

:29:33.:29:37.

this issue, in September 2040 we co-sponsored the UN human rights

:29:38.:29:41.

Council resolution mandating investigation of Daesh abuses in

:29:42.:29:46.

Iraq. Working with international is we are looking at ways to support

:29:47.:29:50.

the gathering of crucial evidence which can be used by the courts to

:29:51.:29:55.

hold a Daesh to account. We must ensure that Daesh are held to

:29:56.:30:03.

account for thereby Boruc -- barbaric acts against minorities,

:30:04.:30:10.

Christians, Yazidis, Kurds and other groups. The only way to put an end

:30:11.:30:14.

to these crimes and to liberate the people of Iraq and Syria is to

:30:15.:30:18.

defeat Daesh. We must continue to expose them for what they are, a

:30:19.:30:22.

failing organisation losing territory and struggling to pay its

:30:23.:30:31.

fighters, and betraying Islam with its doubtful. If you look at the

:30:32.:30:35.

profile of any suicide bomber, as I said last week, from Bali to Sousse,

:30:36.:30:40.

they are sold martyrdom by extremists as a fast track to

:30:41.:30:44.

Paradise, to people who have scant knowledge about the Koran they are

:30:45.:30:47.

promised a ticket to heaven with little or any understanding or

:30:48.:30:55.

service to God. If we are to genuinely defeat extremism and we

:30:56.:31:00.

must learn to size the importance of the duty to God in this life as well

:31:01.:31:05.

as the next. -- all of us must emphasise. The Koran actually

:31:06.:31:10.

forbids suicide. Madam Deputy Speaker, as has been said or implied

:31:11.:31:15.

today, the UK has an aspiration and means to play a significant role in

:31:16.:31:20.

world affairs. Our historical links, now forged into bilateral and

:31:21.:31:24.

regional interests, mean we are expected to take not just an

:31:25.:31:27.

interest but show leadership on the world stage. We are seen as flower,

:31:28.:31:36.

knowledgeable and trustworthy. -- we are seen as fair. We are playing a

:31:37.:31:44.

key role in defeating Daesh and its ideology on the battlefield, and

:31:45.:31:47.

holding it to account for its terrible crimes. In the courts, no

:31:48.:31:51.

matter how long it takes. Fiona Bruce. Thank you. At least 18

:31:52.:31:58.

back into members have spoken in this debate, all without exception

:31:59.:32:01.

have not only supported the motion but have been deeply moving and

:32:02.:32:08.

powerful in what they had said. We have heard irrefutable evidence

:32:09.:32:13.

today of genocide by Daesh in Iraq and Syria. The case has been made.

:32:14.:32:16.

We have heard no good ground for this not being referred to the UN

:32:17.:32:23.

Security Council. The fact that other members of the UN Security

:32:24.:32:26.

Council may veto a referral is no reason for our country not doing it,

:32:27.:32:33.

and the fact that Russia and China vetoed a 2014 referral related to

:32:34.:32:37.

general action and Syria, not on the specific point of genocide by Daesh,

:32:38.:32:41.

should not stop this country from doing so now. Several members have

:32:42.:32:47.

called for a vote. We should have won. We have heard many reasons why

:32:48.:32:52.

this matter should be referred to the UN Security Council, we owe it

:32:53.:32:56.

to the victims to seek justice for those who suffer, to show an

:32:57.:33:00.

international lead, to be a voice for the voiceless, to hold the

:33:01.:33:04.

perpetrators to account. Members, this vote and this motion are

:33:05.:33:09.

simple. It asks the members of Parliament to recognise the genocide

:33:10.:33:13.

that is taking place for what it is. Can anyone who has listened to the

:33:14.:33:18.

debate today deny that? If there ever was a vote, which is a matter

:33:19.:33:23.

of conscience, surely this is one? It is a matter of life and death. If

:33:24.:33:28.

there ever was a vote which should be wholly free for members of this

:33:29.:33:32.

place, surely this is one? Payroll members should not be being asked to

:33:33.:33:36.

abstain. In spite of that fact and the fact that the members voting

:33:37.:33:40.

will not be in the numbers they should we -- should be, I trust that

:33:41.:33:45.

the Government will accept the will of the size and take action as this

:33:46.:33:50.

motion stipulates, a motion which I hope will receive overwhelming

:33:51.:33:52.

support from members across this house. The question is as on the

:33:53.:34:01.

order paper, as many of that opinion say aye, of the contrary no.

:34:02.:34:12.

Division! Division! Clear the lobby is! -- clear the lobbies!

:34:13.:35:54.

Order! Order! The question is as on the order paper. As many of that

:35:55.:36:03.

opinion say aye? Say aye? Of the country no? Tellers for the ayes,

:36:04.:36:12.

David Warburton and Derek Thompson, I could Tomlinson and Kevin Foster

:36:13.:36:13.

for the noes. -- Michael Tomlinson. The temp one to the right to hundred

:36:14.:46:49.

and 78, the noes two to the left is, zero.

:46:50.:46:59.

The ayes... The ayes to the right, 278. The noes to the left, none. The

:47:00.:47:17.

ayes has it, the ayes has set. Unlock! We now come to the backbench

:47:18.:47:29.

debate... Will close to intend to leave the chamber please do so with

:47:30.:47:33.

some courtesy for those waiting for the next debate. We now come to the

:47:34.:47:45.

backbench abates on record copies. James Graham to move the motion. I

:47:46.:47:51.

beg to move the motion which appears in the order paper in my name and

:47:52.:47:55.

the name of 43 colleagues from across the highs on all sides. The

:47:56.:48:00.

effect of the motion would be that they would send a strong message to

:48:01.:48:05.

the other place that the decision unilaterally to end the ancient

:48:06.:48:09.

practice of using vellum to record the act of Parliament was not

:48:10.:48:13.

accepted by this place and they hope the other house will listen

:48:14.:48:16.

carefully to the views of this place if that was to occur. We have moved

:48:17.:48:21.

from a matter of great significance... Order! It is most

:48:22.:48:28.

discourteous of members to gather at the end of the chamber when somebody

:48:29.:48:31.

is trying to make an important speech. I am most grateful. Whether

:48:32.:48:40.

this speech can be described as important or not I am not certain

:48:41.:48:44.

but I'm grateful for the flattering remarks. It is less importance than

:48:45.:48:51.

the last debate. It was a matter of very grave concern to the world.

:48:52.:48:55.

This is an important matter in the terms of symbolism. I do intend to

:48:56.:49:05.

be reasonably brief, not least because the main arguments in favour

:49:06.:49:11.

of saving vellum are laid out in an outstandingly good article this

:49:12.:49:18.

week, in the house Magazine. Because it is printed on paper that those

:49:19.:49:24.

arguments will disappear within a matter of the year or two. If it was

:49:25.:49:29.

printed on vellum they would still exist in 5,000 years. It is

:49:30.:49:35.

important that I should try to advance these arguments in the way

:49:36.:49:39.

that future generations will be able to remember. I pay tribute to the

:49:40.:49:44.

honourable lady from Washington and southern West who has fought this

:49:45.:49:47.

battle for a long time, and to her Labour colleagues in 1999, the last

:49:48.:49:53.

time it was raised, was resolute on it and defeated the House of Lords

:49:54.:49:57.

on the matter. I pay tribute to my right honourable friends who was a

:49:58.:50:02.

member of the government -- as a member of the government is probably

:50:03.:50:06.

unable to speak in this debate, but there support for the last surviving

:50:07.:50:11.

fellow manufacturers in his constituency, it is second to none.

:50:12.:50:18.

Can I also say I would be the first to accept there are a great many

:50:19.:50:23.

more important matters we should be discussing and I would not have

:50:24.:50:27.

wished to do so were not for the fact that the House of Lords

:50:28.:50:32.

unilaterally decided to discontinue it. All I am seeking to do with this

:50:33.:50:36.

debate is assert our right as the House of Commons at least have a say

:50:37.:50:40.

in this matter. It later on today there is division and if the motion

:50:41.:50:45.

is defeated and if the House of Commons decides to agree with the

:50:46.:50:49.

lordships to abolish the use of vellum, so be it, but it is writes

:50:50.:50:55.

in this place that we have done throughout the generations, that we

:50:56.:50:59.

should have our say about how our laws are recorded for future

:51:00.:51:04.

generations. I don't know of my honourable friend is aware that as a

:51:05.:51:08.

fellow member of the administration committee I have changed my views on

:51:09.:51:13.

this matter. I know very much agree with my honourable friend, I think

:51:14.:51:19.

it would be a false economy and I think this is a petition which we

:51:20.:51:24.

must dash at tradition that we must hang onto and cherish. It takes a

:51:25.:51:28.

big politicians to say they have changed their minds. My honourable

:51:29.:51:34.

friend is indeed a big politician. I pay tribute to him. There are three

:51:35.:51:37.

broad arguments advanced by those who would abolish the use of vellum.

:51:38.:51:41.

Each of which is easily dealt with. The main one being the cost of using

:51:42.:51:46.

vellum to record Acts of Parliament. The House of Lords has said, it is

:51:47.:51:52.

alleged that the cost of printing onto vellum comes to ?300,000 a

:51:53.:52:01.

year, and paper would be ?30,000 per year, saving ?70,000 a year -- 100.

:52:02.:52:08.

year, and paper would be ?30,000 per year, saving ?70,000 a year -- --

:52:09.:52:10.

?100,000 a year. And part of my research I have been in touch with

:52:11.:52:15.

an authority on these matters. He tells me that printing on vellum is

:52:16.:52:20.

precisely identical in cost of printing on paper and the cost of

:52:21.:52:26.

printing the laws of this land are approximately ?56,000 per annum. The

:52:27.:52:31.

cost of vellum being relatively small on top of that. So, the saving

:52:32.:52:35.

by changing to paper would be at rest maybe ?10,000 ?20,000 a year.

:52:36.:52:43.

William Connolly and Sons, the last manufacturers, tell us the most they

:52:44.:52:47.

have ever been paid per annum is ?47,000 and that's was the year that

:52:48.:52:52.

we had too many laws in this place so cost more to print them. If we

:52:53.:52:57.

kept ourselves under control and displays the cost we would be them

:52:58.:52:59.

would be even less than ?47,000. Subtitles will resume on

:53:00.:53:13.

'Wednesday In Parliament' at 2300.

:53:14.:53:24.

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