Browse content similar to 27/04/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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than we said at a lecture on time and it is very necessary because | :00:00. | :00:00. | |
these people have suffered through no fault of their own. | :00:00. | :00:14. | |
Order. Secretary of State for the Home Department. | :00:15. | :01:02. | |
The Home Secretary, Theresa May. Thank you, Mr Speaker. And with | :01:03. | :01:10. | |
permission, I would like to make a statement on the Hillsborough | :01:11. | :01:15. | |
stadium disaster. The determinations and findings of the fresh inquests | :01:16. | :01:20. | |
presided over by Sir John Goldring and the steps that will now take | :01:21. | :01:27. | |
place. Mr Speaker, 27 years ago, the terrible events of Saturday the 15th | :01:28. | :01:33. | |
of April 1989 shocked this country and devastated the community. That | :01:34. | :01:40. | |
afternoon, as thousands of fans were preparing to watch the FA Cup | :01:41. | :01:44. | |
semifinal, between Liverpool and Nottingham Forest, a crush developed | :01:45. | :01:48. | |
in the central pens of the Lebens Lane terrace. 96 men, women and | :01:49. | :01:55. | |
children lost their lives as a result. Hundreds more were injured | :01:56. | :02:01. | |
and many were left traumatised. It was this countries worst disaster at | :02:02. | :02:08. | |
a sporting event. For the families and survivors, the search to get to | :02:09. | :02:12. | |
the truth of what happened on that day has been long and arduous. They | :02:13. | :02:20. | |
observed the judicial enquiry led by Lord Justice Taylor, they gave | :02:21. | :02:23. | |
evidence to the original inquests, which recorded a verdict of | :02:24. | :02:26. | |
accidental death, they have seen further scrutiny, reviews and a | :02:27. | :02:32. | |
private prosecution. They suffered the injustice of hearing the | :02:33. | :02:38. | |
victims, their loved ones, and fellow supporters, being blamed. | :02:39. | :02:44. | |
They have heard the shocking conclusions of the Hillsborough | :02:45. | :02:49. | |
Independent panel and they have now, once again, given evidence to the | :02:50. | :02:52. | |
fresh inquests Poseidon over by Sir John Goldring. I have met members of | :02:53. | :02:57. | |
the Hillsborough families on numbers occasions. And in their search for | :02:58. | :03:02. | |
truth and justice, I have never failed to be struck by the | :03:03. | :03:05. | |
extraordinary dignity and determination. I do not think it is | :03:06. | :03:12. | |
possible for any of us to truly understand what they have been | :03:13. | :03:17. | |
through. Not only in losing their loved ones in such horrific | :03:18. | :03:22. | |
circumstances that day, but to hear finding after finding over 27 years, | :03:23. | :03:26. | |
telling them something that they believed to be fundamentally untrue. | :03:27. | :03:31. | |
They have quite simply never given up. I would also like to take this | :03:32. | :03:38. | |
opportunity to pay tribute to the Right Honourable member who has | :03:39. | :03:41. | |
campaigned so tirelessly over the years on their behalf. And also the | :03:42. | :03:48. | |
Honourable member for Liverpool, Garston in Hillwood, Paulton, | :03:49. | :03:50. | |
Liverpool Riverside and Wirral South. Yesterday the fresh inquest | :03:51. | :03:56. | |
into the deaths at Hillsborough gave its determinations and findings, its | :03:57. | :04:00. | |
establishment following the report of the Hillsborough Independent | :04:01. | :04:04. | |
panel chaired by a ship James Jones, the contents of the report was so | :04:05. | :04:11. | |
significant that it led to the new inquests and two new major criminal | :04:12. | :04:13. | |
investigations, one by the independent piece combines | :04:14. | :04:16. | |
commission, examining the actions of the police in the aftermath of | :04:17. | :04:20. | |
Hillsborough, and a second criminal investigation operating result led | :04:21. | :04:26. | |
by John Stoller the former Chief Constable of Durham. Since the fresh | :04:27. | :04:31. | |
inquests opened in Warrington on the 31st of March 2014, the jury has | :04:32. | :04:38. | |
heard 296 days of evidence. It ran for more than two years. It was the | :04:39. | :04:41. | |
longest running inquest in British legal history. I am sure the whole | :04:42. | :04:46. | |
House will want to join me in thanking the jury for the important | :04:47. | :04:52. | |
task it has undertaken and the significant civic duty the jurors | :04:53. | :04:58. | |
have performed. Mr Speaker, I will turn out to the Jewish | :04:59. | :05:03. | |
determinations and findings. In its deliberations, the jury was asked to | :05:04. | :05:07. | |
answer 14 general questions covering the role of South Yorkshire Police, | :05:08. | :05:12. | |
the South Yorkshire Metropolitan Ambulance Service, Sheffield | :05:13. | :05:14. | |
Wednesday football club, and Hillsborough stadium 's engineers, | :05:15. | :05:18. | |
Eastwood and partners. In addition, the jury was also required to answer | :05:19. | :05:25. | |
two questions specific to each of the individual deceased, relating to | :05:26. | :05:31. | |
the time and medical cause of their death. I would like to put on record | :05:32. | :05:38. | |
the jury's determinations in full. They are as follows. Question one, | :05:39. | :05:44. | |
do you agree with the following statement which is intended to | :05:45. | :05:47. | |
summarise the basic facts of the disaster? 96 people died as a result | :05:48. | :05:53. | |
of the disaster at Hillsborough stadium on the 15th of April 1989 | :05:54. | :05:58. | |
due to crashing in a central pens of the lettings Lane terrace. Following | :05:59. | :06:01. | |
the admission of a large number of supporters to the stadium to exit | :06:02. | :06:09. | |
gates? Yes. Question two. Was there any error or admission in police | :06:10. | :06:14. | |
planning and preparation for the semifinal match on the 15th of April | :06:15. | :06:21. | |
1989 which caused or contributed to the dangerous situation that | :06:22. | :06:23. | |
developed on the day of the match? Yes. Was there any error or | :06:24. | :06:30. | |
admission in policing on the day of the match which caused or | :06:31. | :06:33. | |
contributed to a dangerous situation developing at the lettings Lane | :06:34. | :06:40. | |
turnstiles? Yes. Was there any error or admission by commanding officers | :06:41. | :06:43. | |
which caused or contributed to the crush on the terrace? Yes. When the | :06:44. | :06:49. | |
order was given to open the exit gates at the lettings Lane end of | :06:50. | :06:53. | |
the stadium, was there any error or admission I the commanding officers | :06:54. | :06:59. | |
in the control box which caused or contributed to the crash on the | :07:00. | :07:00. | |
terrace? Yes. Are you satisfied so that you are | :07:01. | :07:13. | |
sure that those who died in the disaster work unlawfully killed? | :07:14. | :07:21. | |
Yes. Was there any behaviour on the part of football supporters which | :07:22. | :07:25. | |
caused or contributed to the dangerous situation at the Leppings | :07:26. | :07:32. | |
Lane turnstiles? No. Further to that question, was there any behaviour on | :07:33. | :07:35. | |
the part of football supporters which may have caused or contributed | :07:36. | :07:41. | |
to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles? No. Were | :07:42. | :07:46. | |
there any features of the design, construction, and layout of the | :07:47. | :07:50. | |
stadium which you consider word dangerous or defective and which | :07:51. | :07:53. | |
caused or contributed to the disaster? Yes. Was there any error | :07:54. | :08:00. | |
or omission in the safety certification and oversight of | :08:01. | :08:03. | |
Hillsborough stadium that caused or contributed to the disaster? Yes. | :08:04. | :08:08. | |
Was there any error or omission by Sheffield Wednesday Football Club | :08:09. | :08:11. | |
and its staff in the management of the stadium and - our preparation | :08:12. | :08:16. | |
for the semifinal match on the 15th of April 1989, which caused or | :08:17. | :08:21. | |
contributed to the dangerous situation which developed on the day | :08:22. | :08:25. | |
of the match? Yes. Was there any error or omission by Sheffield | :08:26. | :08:28. | |
Wednesday Football Club and its staff on the 15th of April 1989 | :08:29. | :08:33. | |
which caused or contributed to the dangerous situation that developed | :08:34. | :08:38. | |
at the Leppings Lane turnstiles and in the West Terrace? No. Further to | :08:39. | :08:42. | |
that question, whether any error or omission by Sheffield Wednesday | :08:43. | :08:46. | |
Football Club and its staff on the 15th of April 1989 which have caused | :08:47. | :08:51. | |
or contributed to the dangerous situation that developed at the | :08:52. | :08:55. | |
Leppings Lane turnstiles and in the West Terrace? Yes. Should Eastwood | :08:56. | :09:01. | |
Partners have done more to detect and advise on any unsafe or | :09:02. | :09:06. | |
unsatisfactory features of Hillsborough stadium, which caused | :09:07. | :09:11. | |
or contributed to the disaster? Yes. After the crash in the West Terrace | :09:12. | :09:16. | |
had begun to develop, was there any error or omission by the police | :09:17. | :09:20. | |
which caused or contributed to the loss of lives in the disaster? Yes. | :09:21. | :09:25. | |
After the crush in the West Terrace had begun to develop, was that any | :09:26. | :09:31. | |
error or omission by the Ambulance Service which caused or contributed | :09:32. | :09:36. | |
to the loss of lives in the disaster? Yes. Finally, the jury | :09:37. | :09:44. | |
also recorded the cause and time of death for each of the 96 men, women, | :09:45. | :09:49. | |
and children who died at Hillsborough. In all but one case, | :09:50. | :09:53. | |
the jury have recorded a time bracket running beyond the 3:15pm | :09:54. | :09:59. | |
cut-off point adopted by the coroner at the original inquests. These | :10:00. | :10:05. | |
determinations were published yesterday by the coroner, and I | :10:06. | :10:07. | |
would urge the reading of each and every part in order to fully | :10:08. | :10:10. | |
understand the outcome of the inquests. The jury also heard | :10:11. | :10:15. | |
evidence about the valiant efforts made by many of the fans to rescue | :10:16. | :10:21. | |
those caught up in the crush. There are public spiritedness is to be | :10:22. | :10:24. | |
commended, and I'm sure that the house will want to take this | :10:25. | :10:28. | |
opportunity to recognise what they did in those terrible circumstances. | :10:29. | :10:34. | |
Clearly, the jury's determination that those who died were unlawfully | :10:35. | :10:38. | |
killed is of great public importance. It overturns in the | :10:39. | :10:45. | |
starkest way possible the verdict of accidental death returned at the | :10:46. | :10:50. | |
original inquests. However, the jury's findings do not, of course, | :10:51. | :10:55. | |
and up to a finding of criminal liability and no one should impute | :10:56. | :10:59. | |
criminal liability to anyone while the ongoing investigations are still | :11:00. | :11:03. | |
pending. Elsewhere, the jury noted that commanding officers should have | :11:04. | :11:06. | |
ordered the closure of the central tunnel before the opening of deep | :11:07. | :11:11. | |
sea was requested as pens three and four were full. They should have | :11:12. | :11:14. | |
established the number of fans still to enter the stadium as the 3:30 | :11:15. | :11:19. | |
p.m., and they feel to it recognise that the three and four pens were at | :11:20. | :11:25. | |
capacity. While the inquests have concluded, this is not the end of | :11:26. | :11:29. | |
the process. The decision about whether any criminal prosecution or | :11:30. | :11:33. | |
prosecutions can be brought forward will be made by the Crown | :11:34. | :11:35. | |
Prosecution Service on the basis of evidence gathered as part of the two | :11:36. | :11:40. | |
ongoing investigations. That decision is not constrained in any | :11:41. | :11:44. | |
way by the jury's conclusions. The house will understand that I cannot | :11:45. | :11:48. | |
comment in detail on matters that may lead to a criminal | :11:49. | :11:53. | |
investigation. I can, however, say that the offences under | :11:54. | :11:56. | |
investigation include gross negligence manslaughter, misconduct | :11:57. | :11:59. | |
in public office, perverting the course of justice, and perjury, as | :12:00. | :12:05. | |
well as offences under the safety of sports ground act 1975 and the | :12:06. | :12:10. | |
health and safety at work act 1974. I know that those responsible for | :12:11. | :12:15. | |
the police and IPCC investigations anticipate that they will conclude | :12:16. | :12:18. | |
the criminal investigations by the turn of the year. We must allow them | :12:19. | :12:23. | |
to complete their work in a timely and thorough manner. And we must be | :12:24. | :12:26. | |
mindful not to prejudice the outcome in any way. I have always been clear | :12:27. | :12:31. | |
that the Government will support the families in their quest for justice, | :12:32. | :12:35. | |
so throughout the ongoing investigations we will ensure that | :12:36. | :12:38. | |
support remains in place in three ways. First, the family forums, | :12:39. | :12:44. | |
which have provided the families with the regular and structured | :12:45. | :12:47. | |
means of engaging with the investigative teams and the CPS will | :12:48. | :12:53. | |
continue. They will remain under Bishop Jones chairmanship in a | :12:54. | :12:56. | |
similar format, but they will reflect the fact that they will be | :12:57. | :13:01. | |
operating after the inquests. The CPS, the IPCC, and operation resolve | :13:02. | :13:05. | |
will remain part of the forums. Secondly, now that the inquests have | :13:06. | :13:10. | |
concluded, it is the intention to reconstitute the Hillsborough | :13:11. | :13:12. | |
article to reference group whose work has been in billions during the | :13:13. | :13:15. | |
course of the inquests under revised of reference. -- abeyance. Thirdly, | :13:16. | :13:28. | |
we want to ensure that the legal representation scheme for the | :13:29. | :13:31. | |
bereaved families continues. This was put in place with funding from | :13:32. | :13:35. | |
the Government, following the original inquest verdicts being | :13:36. | :13:40. | |
quashed. Discussions are currently taking place with the family's legal | :13:41. | :13:45. | |
representations to see how best the skin can be continued. In addition, | :13:46. | :13:49. | |
I am keen that we understand and learn from the experiences of the | :13:50. | :13:55. | |
families, and they have therefore has to Bishop James to write a | :13:56. | :13:58. | |
report which draws on these experiences. This report will be | :13:59. | :14:01. | |
published in due course to ensure that the full perspective of those | :14:02. | :14:05. | |
most affected by the Hillsborough disaster is not lost. I would also | :14:06. | :14:11. | |
like to express my thanks to Bishop James, again for his invaluable | :14:12. | :14:14. | |
advice over the years. There is further work to be done, so I have | :14:15. | :14:18. | |
asked Bishop James to remain as my advisor, and I'm pleased to say that | :14:19. | :14:24. | |
he has agreed to do so. Mr Speaker, the conclusion of the inquests | :14:25. | :14:27. | |
brings to an end an important step since the publication of | :14:28. | :14:31. | |
Hillsborough Independent panel's report. Thanks to that report, and | :14:32. | :14:35. | |
now the determinations of the inquests, we know the truth of what | :14:36. | :14:39. | |
happened on that day in Hillsborough. Naturally, the | :14:40. | :14:42. | |
families will want to reflect on yesterday's historic outcome, which | :14:43. | :14:47. | |
is of national significance. I am also clear that this raises | :14:48. | :14:50. | |
significant issues for the way that the state and its agencies deal with | :14:51. | :14:54. | |
disasters. Once the formal investigations are concluded, we | :14:55. | :14:59. | |
should step back, reflect, and act if necessary so that we can better | :15:00. | :15:02. | |
respond to disasters and ensure that the suffering of families is taken | :15:03. | :15:06. | |
into account. But I want to end by saying this. For 27 years, the | :15:07. | :15:12. | |
families and survivors of Hillsborough have fought for | :15:13. | :15:16. | |
justice. They have faced hostility, opposition, and of the station. And | :15:17. | :15:21. | |
the authorities that should have been trusted have laid blame and | :15:22. | :15:27. | |
tried to protect themselves. -- obfuscation. Instead of acting in | :15:28. | :15:31. | |
the public interest. But the families have never faltered in | :15:32. | :15:35. | |
their pursuit of the truth. Thanks to their actions, they have brought | :15:36. | :15:39. | |
about a proper reinvestigation and a thorough re-evaluation of what | :15:40. | :15:42. | |
happened at Hillsborough. That they have done so is extraordinary. I am | :15:43. | :15:47. | |
sure the whole house will want to join me in paying tribute to their | :15:48. | :15:53. | |
courage, determination, and resolve. And we should also remember those | :15:54. | :15:56. | |
who have sadly passed away while still waiting for justice. No wonder | :15:57. | :16:02. | |
should have to endure what the families and survivors have been | :16:03. | :16:05. | |
through. No one should have discovered the loss of their loved | :16:06. | :16:09. | |
ones through such appalling circumstances, and no one should | :16:10. | :16:12. | |
have to fight year after year after year, decade after decade, in search | :16:13. | :16:19. | |
of the trip. I hope that for the families and survivors who have been | :16:20. | :16:25. | |
through such difficult times, yesterday's determinations will | :16:26. | :16:29. | |
bring them closer towards the peace they have been so long denied. I | :16:30. | :16:33. | |
commend this statement to the house. Andy Burnham. Thank you, Mr Speaker. | :16:34. | :16:44. | |
I thank the Home Secretary for her powerful statement and for her kind | :16:45. | :16:52. | |
words. At long last, just as for the 96, for their families, for all | :16:53. | :16:57. | |
Liverpool supporters, for an entire city, but it took too long in | :16:58. | :17:01. | |
coming, and the struggle for it took too great a toll on too many. Now | :17:02. | :17:07. | |
those responsible must be held to account for 96 unlawful deaths and | :17:08. | :17:15. | |
48 27 year cover-up. Thankfully, the jury saw through the life, and I'm | :17:16. | :17:20. | |
sure, repeating what my honourable friend said, the Home Secretary, | :17:21. | :17:24. | |
that this house will join me in thanking the jury for their devotion | :17:25. | :17:28. | |
to this task and in giving two years of their lives to this important | :17:29. | :17:32. | |
public duty. When it came, their verdict was simple, clear, powerful | :17:33. | :17:38. | |
and emphatic. But it begs the question, how can something so | :17:39. | :17:44. | |
obvious had taken so long? Three reasons. First, a police force which | :17:45. | :17:47. | |
has consistently put protecting itself against over and above | :17:48. | :17:52. | |
protecting people harmed by Hillsborough. Second, collusion | :17:53. | :17:58. | |
between that force and a complicit print media. Third, a flawed | :17:59. | :18:05. | |
judicial system that gives the upper hand to those in authority over and | :18:06. | :18:11. | |
above ordinary people. Let me take each of those issues in turn. | :18:12. | :18:16. | |
Starting with the South Yorkshire Police. Can the Home Secretary | :18:17. | :18:19. | |
assure me that there will be no holding back in pursuing | :18:20. | :18:24. | |
prosecutions? The CPS has said that files will be submitted by December. | :18:25. | :18:29. | |
We understand the complexity, but can she urge them to do whatever | :18:30. | :18:33. | |
they can to bring that date forward? Of course, the behaviour of some | :18:34. | :18:39. | |
officers, while reprehensible, was not necessarily chargeable, but | :18:40. | :18:41. | |
through retirement, police officers can still escape misconduct | :18:42. | :18:47. | |
proceedings. In her policing and crime Bill, the Home Secretary | :18:48. | :18:52. | |
proposes a 12 month period after retirement where proceedings can be | :18:53. | :18:58. | |
initiated, but one of the lessons of Hillsborough, Mr Speaker, is that | :18:59. | :19:02. | |
there can be no arbitrary time limits on justice and | :19:03. | :19:06. | |
accountability, so will the Home Secretary work with me to it insert | :19:07. | :19:13. | |
a Hillsborough claws into her bill, ending the scandal of retirement as | :19:14. | :19:17. | |
an escape route, and of wrongdoers claiming full pensions, and will she | :19:18. | :19:22. | |
join me in making sure it applies retrospectively? The much bigger | :19:23. | :19:26. | |
question for the South Yorkshire Police to answer today is this. Why, | :19:27. | :19:33. | |
at this inquest, did they go back on their 2012 public apology? When the | :19:34. | :19:39. | |
Lord Chief Justice quashed the original inquest, he requested that | :19:40. | :19:46. | |
the new one is not degenerate into an adversarial battle. Sadly, Mr | :19:47. | :19:49. | |
Speaker, that is exactly what happened. Shamefully, the cover-up | :19:50. | :19:57. | |
continued in this Warrington courtroom. Millions of pounds of | :19:58. | :20:02. | |
public money was spent retelling discredited lies against Liverpool | :20:03. | :20:07. | |
supporters. Lawyers for retired officers through disgusting slur is | :20:08. | :20:11. | |
around. Those for today's for a strike to establish that others were | :20:12. | :20:14. | |
responsible for the opening of the gate. If the police had chosen to | :20:15. | :20:19. | |
maintain its apology, this inquest would have been much shorter, but | :20:20. | :20:22. | |
they didn't and they put the families through hell once again. It | :20:23. | :20:30. | |
pains me to say it, but the NHS, through the Yorkshire Ambulance | :20:31. | :20:33. | |
Service, was guilty of the same. Does the Home Secretary agree that | :20:34. | :20:37. | |
because of his handling of this inquest, the position of the South | :20:38. | :20:42. | |
Yorkshire Chief Constable is now untenable? Does she further agree | :20:43. | :20:47. | |
that the problems go deeper? I honestly families the full truth | :20:48. | :20:51. | |
about Hillsborough. I don't believe they will have it until we know the | :20:52. | :21:02. | |
truth about him. This forces the same underhand tactics against its | :21:03. | :21:06. | |
own people in the aftermath of the minor's strike that it would later | :21:07. | :21:10. | |
use to more deadly effect against the people of Liverpool. There has | :21:11. | :21:15. | |
been an IPCC report, that part of it are redacted. | :21:16. | :21:25. | |
This is a time for transparency not seek and see. Time for the people of | :21:26. | :21:30. | |
South Yorkshire to know the full truth about their police force. So | :21:31. | :21:34. | |
will the Home Secretary accept the legal submission from the truth and | :21:35. | :21:39. | |
justice campaign and set up a disclosure process? This force has | :21:40. | :21:44. | |
not learned and has not changed. Let me be clear. I don't blame the | :21:45. | :21:48. | |
ordinary police officers, the men and women who did their very best on | :21:49. | :21:53. | |
that day. And who today are out there keeping our streets safe. But | :21:54. | :21:57. | |
I do blame their leadership and culture which seems rotten to the | :21:58. | :22:02. | |
core. Hillsborough, rather, how much more evidence to be needed before we | :22:03. | :22:07. | |
act? Will the Home Secretary ordered a fundamental reform of this force | :22:08. | :22:13. | |
and consider all potential options? Let me turn to collusion between | :22:14. | :22:17. | |
police and the media. The malicious briefings given in the aftermath | :22:18. | :22:21. | |
were devastatingly efficient, creating a false version of events | :22:22. | :22:25. | |
which lingered until yesterday. No one in the police or media has ever | :22:26. | :22:29. | |
been held to account for the incalculable harm they caused the | :22:30. | :22:37. | |
whole city, smearing it in its greatest moments agree. Imagine my | :22:38. | :22:42. | |
constituent who came through gate to see just before 3pm with his friend | :22:43. | :22:47. | |
Carl Brown, who died but Lee survived. Days later he had to read | :22:48. | :22:54. | |
that he was to blame. Given the weakness of the press regulatory | :22:55. | :22:56. | |
system back then, the survivors had no ability of two correct the lies | :22:57. | :23:02. | |
and is it any different today? Ever tragedy like Hillsborough were to | :23:03. | :23:06. | |
happen now, victims would not be able quickly to undo the damage of a | :23:07. | :23:12. | |
misleading front page. Levinson second stage enquiry to look at the | :23:13. | :23:17. | |
sometimes unhealthy relationship between police and press. I know the | :23:18. | :23:21. | |
Hillsborough families feel strongly that this should be taken forward, | :23:22. | :23:25. | |
so will the Government end the delay and on the Prime Minister's promises | :23:26. | :23:30. | |
to the victims of press intrusion? I'd turn to the judicial system. I | :23:31. | :23:34. | |
have attended this inquest on many occasions, I saw how hard it was for | :23:35. | :23:40. | |
the families, trapped for two years in a temporary courtroom, told to | :23:41. | :23:43. | |
show no emotion as police lawyers smeared the dead and those who | :23:44. | :23:50. | |
survived, yonder cruel. And I welcome Bishop James' new role in | :23:51. | :23:54. | |
explaining just how cruel this was to the House and to the country. The | :23:55. | :23:59. | |
original inquest was similarly brutal. That didn't even get to the | :24:00. | :24:04. | |
truth. Just as the first inquest muddied the water after the clarity | :24:05. | :24:09. | |
of the Taylor report, so this inquest at moments lost sight of the | :24:10. | :24:12. | |
Hillsborough Independent panel report. One of the reasons why | :24:13. | :24:17. | |
produced a different outcome though is because this time the families | :24:18. | :24:20. | |
have the best lawyers in the land. If they could have afforded them | :24:21. | :24:25. | |
back in 1990, history might have been very different. At many | :24:26. | :24:30. | |
inquests today there is often a mismatch between the legal | :24:31. | :24:33. | |
representation of public bodies and those of the bereaved. Why should | :24:34. | :24:38. | |
the authorities be able to spend public money like water to protect | :24:39. | :24:42. | |
themselves when families have no such help? So will the Government | :24:43. | :24:50. | |
consider further reforms to the system including giving the bereaved | :24:51. | :24:54. | |
and least equal legal funding as public bodies? This, the longest | :24:55. | :25:00. | |
case in English legal history, must mark a watershed in how victims are | :25:01. | :25:06. | |
treated. The last question is for us in this House. What kind of country | :25:07. | :25:14. | |
leaves people who did no more than wave off their loved ones to a | :25:15. | :25:17. | |
football match still sitting in a court room 27 years later begging | :25:18. | :25:24. | |
for the reputations of their sons, daughters, brothers, sisters and | :25:25. | :25:29. | |
fathers? The answer is one that needs now to do some deep | :25:30. | :25:33. | |
soul-searching. This cover-up went right to the top. It was advanced in | :25:34. | :25:38. | |
the committee rooms of this House and in the press room is of ten | :25:39. | :25:43. | |
Downing St. It persisted because of collusion between elite in politics | :25:44. | :25:49. | |
on both sides, police and the media. But this Home Secretary stood | :25:50. | :25:58. | |
outside of that and today I express my sincere admiration and gratitude | :25:59. | :26:02. | |
to her for the stance she has consistently taken in writing this | :26:03. | :26:10. | |
wrong. But my final words go to the Hillsborough families. I think of | :26:11. | :26:15. | |
those who did not live to see this day. Of the courageous and Williams, | :26:16. | :26:24. | |
of my constituent Stephen Whittle, the 97th victim, who gave his own | :26:25. | :26:28. | |
ticket to a friend on the morning of the match and later took his own | :26:29. | :26:34. | |
life. I think people like Phil Hammond, who sacrificed his own | :26:35. | :26:39. | |
health to this struggle. I think of the many people who died from | :26:40. | :26:44. | |
outside Merseyside recognising that this was not just Liverpool's but | :26:45. | :26:50. | |
the country's tragedy. I think of Lee Brown and his devoted mum, | :26:51. | :26:54. | |
Delia, is still visit his grave most days. I think of Trevor and Jenny | :26:55. | :26:58. | |
Hicks, and their heartbreaking testimony to the new inquest. But I | :26:59. | :27:03. | |
think most of my friend Margaret Aspinall, she did not just sacrifice | :27:04. | :27:09. | |
everything for her own son, James, she took on a heavy burden of | :27:10. | :27:13. | |
fighting for everyone else's loved ones and by God, didn't she do them | :27:14. | :27:18. | |
proud Western Mark editing the privilege of my life to work with | :27:19. | :27:21. | |
them all. They have prevailed against all the odds. They have kept | :27:22. | :27:28. | |
their dignity in face of terrible adversity, they could not have shown | :27:29. | :27:31. | |
a more profound love for those they lost on that day, they truly | :27:32. | :27:36. | |
represent the best of what a la country is all about. Now it must | :27:37. | :27:42. | |
reflect on how we let them down for so long. | :27:43. | :27:46. | |
APPLAUSE Home Secretary. | :27:47. | :27:54. | |
Thank you, Mr Speaker. Can I thank the writable gentleman for his | :27:55. | :28:00. | |
words. And particularly for his kind words in relation to myself, but can | :28:01. | :28:05. | |
I, as I said in my opening statement, once again commend him | :28:06. | :28:09. | |
for the way in which he has stood by the families for so long and carried | :28:10. | :28:14. | |
their cause in this House and indeed in Government when he was in | :28:15. | :28:19. | |
Government. Can I just reflect, I will respond to some of his specific | :28:20. | :28:24. | |
points, but the end point that he made, it is absolutely right and | :28:25. | :28:29. | |
this was reflected in the statement that my right honourable friend the | :28:30. | :28:33. | |
Prime Minister made after the independent panel's report came out, | :28:34. | :28:41. | |
that what the families faced was a combination of the state in all its | :28:42. | :28:45. | |
various forms, not believing them, and all the various attempts to | :28:46. | :28:51. | |
cover up what had really happened. Together with other agencies, the | :28:52. | :28:55. | |
media and others, and indeed, dare I say it, most of the general public | :28:56. | :29:00. | |
who believe the stories that they read about the fans. To have stood | :29:01. | :29:11. | |
against that for so long shows a steel and determination but also an | :29:12. | :29:19. | |
affection for the lost loved ones and a passionate desire for justice | :29:20. | :29:27. | |
on behalf of those who died that is, as I said, extraordinary, and I | :29:28. | :29:31. | |
think we will rarely see the light again. On the individual questions, | :29:32. | :29:36. | |
the writable gentleman asked me about the time for the files to be | :29:37. | :29:43. | |
prepared by the two investigations. They've do, both say, operation | :29:44. | :29:49. | |
resolve and IPCC, they expect to have a case filed by the end of the | :29:50. | :29:53. | |
year. I recognised for the families, this is a featherweight and it will | :29:54. | :29:56. | |
then be a period of time for the CPS to consider more. I think everybody | :29:57. | :30:02. | |
recognises including those bodies, because of course they do interact | :30:03. | :30:06. | |
with the families through the family forums, the importance of doing this | :30:07. | :30:09. | |
in a timely fashion but also important it's done properly. And | :30:10. | :30:14. | |
thoroughly. I don't want to see anything in the way of that being | :30:15. | :30:17. | |
done in the right way. On the retirement of police officers, I've | :30:18. | :30:22. | |
always felt it wrong police officer should avoid gross misconduct | :30:23. | :30:25. | |
proceedings by merely retiring or resigning, that's why we changed the | :30:26. | :30:28. | |
disciplinary arrangements and we have a clause in the police and | :30:29. | :30:36. | |
crime Bill. We are happy to meet with him and discuss the various | :30:37. | :30:47. | |
issues in relation to that matter. On the issue he raised about | :30:48. | :30:52. | |
ordinary met representatives last year from the Honourable member for | :30:53. | :30:57. | |
Sheffield and one spec, I then received a submission from Michael | :30:58. | :31:02. | |
Mansfield QC on behalf of of the group and that is being considered. | :31:03. | :31:08. | |
In relation to love as a two, we've always said their decision on that | :31:09. | :31:12. | |
would be taken when the case investigations which were undertaken | :31:13. | :31:17. | |
had been completed. There are still cases being considered so that point | :31:18. | :31:23. | |
has not come. He talked about the families and about the inquests and | :31:24. | :31:26. | |
the availability of funding for families at inquests. This is | :31:27. | :31:29. | |
precisely the sort of issue I think it can be encompassed in the words | :31:30. | :31:35. | |
Bishop James Jones, hearing from the families about the families | :31:36. | :31:40. | |
experiences and reflecting it into Government and I think it's right | :31:41. | :31:44. | |
and we should take a clear look at what further we need to do. I think | :31:45. | :31:51. | |
nobody should be in any doubt the experience families had to go to at | :31:52. | :31:54. | |
the inquests of not being able to show any emotion but I think | :31:55. | :31:57. | |
something else that perhaps must be particularly difficult, many people | :31:58. | :32:02. | |
for 27 years have not known what actually happened to their loved | :32:03. | :32:08. | |
ones. They didn't know how they died or what time they died, and those | :32:09. | :32:13. | |
details of only come through this inquest. And so it must've been | :32:14. | :32:16. | |
particularly difficult for to sit through that but I hope that they | :32:17. | :32:23. | |
have now found some peace through the fact that the truth has now come | :32:24. | :32:33. | |
out. Mr Speaker, I'm very pleased that the efforts of a family -- the | :32:34. | :32:39. | |
families and the independent review panel which did such outstanding | :32:40. | :32:45. | |
work have contributed to the outcome which entirely vindicates the | :32:46. | :32:49. | |
position that they had both adopted. And I'm also pleased, a small | :32:50. | :32:55. | |
department at the time I lead, was able to play a role in bringing that | :32:56. | :33:00. | |
about. It seems to me, Mr Speaker, the key issue is not that people are | :33:01. | :33:07. | |
going to make mistakes because in human society mistakes are always | :33:08. | :33:11. | |
going to be made, sometimes with catastrophic consequences, but the | :33:12. | :33:14. | |
real issue which needs to concern this House is that, in a society | :33:15. | :33:20. | |
which counts itself as civilised and subject to the rule of law, it | :33:21. | :33:23. | |
appears that for such a long time it was impossible to get redress and a | :33:24. | :33:29. | |
proper examination of the issues. This is not I regret to say a unique | :33:30. | :33:34. | |
event. We have had other occasions in this House when we've had to | :33:35. | :33:37. | |
consider the importation is of similar events happening in other | :33:38. | :33:42. | |
circumstances. Bloody Sunday. It springs to mind. It seems to me the | :33:43. | :33:50. | |
lesson that this House needs to take away is we have to subject ourselves | :33:51. | :33:53. | |
and our institutions to quite a lot of self-examination and to maintain | :33:54. | :33:58. | |
it if we are to ensure for the future that we do not have a | :33:59. | :34:02. | |
reputation of this frankly deplorable episode. I'm not always | :34:03. | :34:08. | |
sure the best way that should be done and I simply say to my right | :34:09. | :34:12. | |
honourable friend the Home Secretary, who has done everything | :34:13. | :34:14. | |
right in respect of this, and I commend her for the way she has | :34:15. | :34:19. | |
approached it, but I say to her that it's not just a question of the | :34:20. | :34:23. | |
systems we have in place but also I think some of the underlying | :34:24. | :34:29. | |
attitudes that, when uncomfortable truths come across the horizon, | :34:30. | :34:32. | |
there's always a temptation to try to them away because they confront | :34:33. | :34:37. | |
us with difficulties which make us uncomfortable. And if we do that, | :34:38. | :34:43. | |
then we can ensure that, not only can we do justice for the families | :34:44. | :34:46. | |
in this matter, but we can also ensure that so far as is humanly | :34:47. | :34:50. | |
possible, we don't repeat this in future. Can I thank my right | :34:51. | :34:55. | |
honourable friend for his remarks and thank you also for the role he | :34:56. | :34:59. | |
played in ensuring that fresh inquests could take place. And I | :35:00. | :35:04. | |
think he's absolutely right it's not just a question of systems. It is a | :35:05. | :35:09. | |
question of attitudes. I have seen this in other areas, too. The work | :35:10. | :35:12. | |
that we are doing for example on deaths in custody, and hearing from | :35:13. | :35:18. | |
families in those cases. What happens so often is that the | :35:19. | :35:22. | |
institutions that should actually be the ones that people can trust to | :35:23. | :35:28. | |
get to the truth, combined to protect themselves, have a natural | :35:29. | :35:31. | |
instinct to look inwards and protect themselves rather than doing what is | :35:32. | :35:35. | |
right in the public interest. And he's right, we can change the | :35:36. | :35:40. | |
systems we wish to but it's about changing those attitudes and saying, | :35:41. | :35:44. | |
actually, those institutions are there to serve the public and it is | :35:45. | :35:47. | |
a public interest they should always put first. I should like to begin by | :35:48. | :35:56. | |
thanking the Home Secretary for her immensely dignified and thorough | :35:57. | :35:59. | |
statements. I should also like to welcome the jury 's determination | :36:00. | :36:05. | |
and findings. On behalf of the Scottish National Party I would like | :36:06. | :36:10. | |
to acknowledge the heroic struggle for justice of the friends and | :36:11. | :36:13. | |
relatives of 96 dead and also to acknowledge the heroic struggle the | :36:14. | :36:20. | |
Shadow Home Secretary and other people on the official opposition | :36:21. | :36:24. | |
benches. Today we must also remember the 96 dead. Decent people from all | :36:25. | :36:31. | |
walks of life who were failed by the police and emergency services. Who | :36:32. | :36:34. | |
would very people who should have been able to help them in their of | :36:35. | :36:36. | |
need. Yesterday's verdict follows 27 years | :36:37. | :36:46. | |
of concealment of the truth, after mud slinging at innocence, I would | :36:47. | :36:55. | |
like to state that this must rank alongside bloody Sunday as one of | :36:56. | :37:00. | |
the most disgraceful establishment cover-ups of our time. The ruling | :37:01. | :37:05. | |
confirms that some police officers have really -- have behaved | :37:06. | :37:15. | |
dishonourably. They were also from the same force who so brutally | :37:16. | :37:19. | |
repressed the minor's strike and I was very pleased to hear what the | :37:20. | :37:22. | |
Home Secretary had to say in that regard. Will she acknowledge the | :37:23. | :37:26. | |
impact that the behaviour of some police officers has had on public | :37:27. | :37:30. | |
confidence in the police and assurers such actions can never | :37:31. | :37:34. | |
happen again? Elements of the media, I am sure, will also lead a lesson | :37:35. | :37:39. | |
from this, but as the Shadow Home Secretary said, will they ever be | :37:40. | :37:43. | |
held to account? I think the party opposite has learned a lesson from | :37:44. | :37:47. | |
this, because as has been said, the actions of the Home Secretary have | :37:48. | :37:52. | |
been exemplary as compared to the attitude of the Cabinet at the time. | :37:53. | :37:57. | |
Can she assure us that such a miscarriage of justice will never be | :37:58. | :38:02. | |
allowed to happen a game? Because, Mr Speaker, justice delayed is | :38:03. | :38:06. | |
justice denied. Now we have the truth, but in the wake of that trip, | :38:07. | :38:11. | |
accountability must follow, is what happens next is crucial. Does she | :38:12. | :38:16. | |
agree with me that where there are strongly founded allegations, that | :38:17. | :38:21. | |
police officers may have perverted the course of justice, strongly | :38:22. | :38:26. | |
founded allegations that police officers gave misleading information | :38:27. | :38:32. | |
to the media, MEPs, and this Parliament, and strongly founded | :38:33. | :38:35. | |
allegations that police officers may have perjured themselves, does she | :38:36. | :38:39. | |
agree that appropriate action and prosecutions must be seen to follow | :38:40. | :38:43. | |
swiftly? Mr Speaker, I would also like to echo what the Shadow Home | :38:44. | :38:48. | |
Secretary said about concern that certain police officers avoided | :38:49. | :38:51. | |
disciplinary action by retiring to enjoy a full pension. Will she also | :38:52. | :38:56. | |
take steps to address matters so that this cannot happen again? And | :38:57. | :39:02. | |
finally, Mr Speaker, I would like to welcome her intention to | :39:03. | :39:04. | |
reconstitute the Hillsborough article to reference group. Article | :39:05. | :39:09. | |
two of the European Convention of Human Rights. Without the Human | :39:10. | :39:15. | |
Rights Act, are procedural obligation on the state to | :39:16. | :39:18. | |
investigate deaths properly under Article two, this second inquest | :39:19. | :39:22. | |
would never have happened and these families might never have got | :39:23. | :39:26. | |
justice. Please will she and her Government bear that in mind when | :39:27. | :39:32. | |
they consider their attitude toward human rights and the European Court | :39:33. | :39:36. | |
of Human Rights. Thank you, Mr Speaker. On the various points that | :39:37. | :39:42. | |
the honourable lady has raised, she raised the issue of public | :39:43. | :39:45. | |
confidence in the police, and it is absolutely correct to say that they | :39:46. | :39:50. | |
have shattered confidence. This was a point that was made is by the | :39:51. | :39:56. | |
representative from the IPCC to the media yesterday, that there were | :39:57. | :39:59. | |
people in Liverpool whose trust me please was severely damaged, if not | :40:00. | :40:03. | |
destroyed, as a result of what they had seen. In talking about the | :40:04. | :40:07. | |
action of police officers at Hillsborough that day, I think we | :40:08. | :40:10. | |
should recognise that there were some officers who did actively try | :40:11. | :40:15. | |
to help the fans and tried to do the right thing on that occasion. I am | :40:16. | :40:22. | |
pleased to say that in terms of police response abilities and police | :40:23. | :40:26. | |
attitudes, of course, the College of policing has now introduce a code of | :40:27. | :40:30. | |
ethics for police. We need to make sure that that is embedded | :40:31. | :40:32. | |
throughout our police forces, but I think this is an important step | :40:33. | :40:37. | |
forward. She asks about the question of ensuring prosecutions where there | :40:38. | :40:43. | |
is evidence of criminal activity. Of course, that is entirely a decision | :40:44. | :40:50. | |
for the Crown property servers. -- for the Crown Prosecution Service. | :40:51. | :40:56. | |
We must leave the IPCC to prepare independently. And on her final | :40:57. | :41:00. | |
point I would simply observe that we have had the coronal process here in | :41:01. | :41:05. | |
the UK for some considerable time and the request -- the right to | :41:06. | :41:13. | |
request an inquest long before the European Court of Human Rights was | :41:14. | :41:20. | |
put in place. May I also play -- paid tribute to those who've worked | :41:21. | :41:22. | |
hard to ensure that justice was done in this case and to the Home | :41:23. | :41:26. | |
Secretary and Shadow Home Secretary to the balanced way in which they | :41:27. | :41:30. | |
have approached these matters. With the Home Secretary agree that it is | :41:31. | :41:34. | |
important we do lessons, for example although the court process is | :41:35. | :41:38. | |
inevitably stressful for victims and witnesses, as I know, none the less | :41:39. | :41:41. | |
in this case, the coroner and the jury did their duty and proved that | :41:42. | :41:46. | |
the jury system can be capable of grappling with the most conflicts | :41:47. | :41:50. | |
and distressing of cases, that is to the system's credit. She also note | :41:51. | :41:57. | |
that we need to ensure there is proper access to justice for these | :41:58. | :42:01. | |
matters, which is fundamental to our rule of law and in relation to the | :42:02. | :42:07. | |
very considerable volume of work and material the Crown Prosecution | :42:08. | :42:11. | |
Service must now consider. I note some 238 police statements are said | :42:12. | :42:14. | |
to have been altered. Dealing with that volume of material, would you | :42:15. | :42:17. | |
perhaps discuss with the Treasury and with the Attorney General to see | :42:18. | :42:24. | |
some funding to deal with the particular pressures of resource in | :42:25. | :42:29. | |
the CPS could be done this in the same way it is done for the Serious | :42:30. | :42:32. | |
Fraud Office when they have to undertake major and unexpected | :42:33. | :42:35. | |
enquiries? I thank my honourable friend. I think you will have noted | :42:36. | :42:39. | |
that the Attorney General is sitting on the Treasury bench and therefore | :42:40. | :42:42. | |
will have heard the references he has made in relation to funding for | :42:43. | :42:46. | |
this sort of case. The first bike that he made about the importance of | :42:47. | :42:49. | |
the jury system I think is absolutely right. I think this shows | :42:50. | :42:54. | |
the value of the jury system that we have and I repeat the comment I made | :42:55. | :42:58. | |
my statement. I think for people on the jury to have been prepared to | :42:59. | :43:03. | |
take years to ensure that justice was done in this case is absolutely | :43:04. | :43:07. | |
commendable. They have shown considerable civic duty and our | :43:08. | :43:15. | |
thanks go to them. Steve Rotherham. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Can I first | :43:16. | :43:19. | |
of all say that the response to the statement by Mike honourable friend | :43:20. | :43:25. | |
will reverberate throughout Merseyside and right around the | :43:26. | :43:29. | |
country. I would also like to praise the Home Secretary for all she has | :43:30. | :43:32. | |
done to bring about yesterday's meant his decision. Thank you from | :43:33. | :43:37. | |
the families. On the 15th of April 1989 as fans walked away from the FA | :43:38. | :43:41. | |
Cup final, semifinal, in Sheffield, they knew then that the disaster was | :43:42. | :43:47. | |
not our fault. Almost immediately, however, lies and smears were being | :43:48. | :43:51. | |
peddled within hours and orchestrated cover-up was in full | :43:52. | :43:55. | |
swing. It's took political intervention to force the judicial | :43:56. | :44:02. | |
process of this country 27 years to recognise what we knew on day one. | :44:03. | :44:08. | |
That Hillsborough was not an accident. Bands did not open the | :44:09. | :44:15. | |
gates. Drunken fans did not turn up late, hell-bent on getting in. It | :44:16. | :44:23. | |
was not because of a drunken, tank top mob. Instead, 96 people were | :44:24. | :44:29. | |
unlawfully killed. Those that doubt it must now recognise the true story | :44:30. | :44:33. | |
of the efforts of my fellow supporters for their acts of | :44:34. | :44:37. | |
self-sacrifice and heroism as they battled to save the lives of their | :44:38. | :44:43. | |
fellow fans. And consigned it to the dustbin of history be loaded tabloid | :44:44. | :44:46. | |
headlines that vilified them. Despite the inquest being | :44:47. | :44:53. | |
adversarial not inquisitorial, yesterday's verdict was unequivocal. | :44:54. | :44:57. | |
Liverpool supporters were totally absolved of any blame and did not | :44:58. | :45:03. | |
contribute to the disaster in any way. As someone once said, I cherish | :45:04. | :45:10. | |
the hope that as time goes on, you will recognise the truth of what I | :45:11. | :45:15. | |
say. We'll be Home Secretary join me in paying tribute to the families, | :45:16. | :45:20. | |
survivors, campaigners and supporters who fought for truth and | :45:21. | :45:25. | |
justice and to the solidarity of those who stood shoulder to shoulder | :45:26. | :45:29. | |
whether red or blue for nearly three decades and to the men and women of | :45:30. | :45:32. | |
a proud city that never give up until it got justice for the 96. I | :45:33. | :45:40. | |
was very happy to join the honourable gentleman in paying | :45:41. | :45:43. | |
tribute to the families and for the way in which they kept the flame of | :45:44. | :45:47. | |
hope for truth and justice alive over 27 years, but also to pay | :45:48. | :45:51. | |
tribute to the city of Liverpool and the people of Liverpool, who I think | :45:52. | :45:54. | |
we have seen and I think we will continue to see in the coming days | :45:55. | :46:01. | |
showed a solidarity regardless, as he said, of their affiliations | :46:02. | :46:06. | |
footballing terms, they recognise the injustice that was done and they | :46:07. | :46:09. | |
came together and they supported the families and the trip has now been | :46:10. | :46:18. | |
found. I think that we can learn from the honourable gentleman when | :46:19. | :46:20. | |
he raised the question of the Stephen Lawrence police | :46:21. | :46:24. | |
investigation and others. When people come to Parliament either as | :46:25. | :46:32. | |
members of professional services or not and there is some kind of a | :46:33. | :46:36. | |
cover-up going on, we hope that the leaders of these professional | :46:37. | :46:38. | |
services such as the police and the NHS will pay attention when it is | :46:39. | :46:51. | |
said that action needs to be taken. With the actions that happened that | :46:52. | :46:55. | |
Hillsborough, the mistakes, and then worse of all was the cover-up. How | :46:56. | :47:00. | |
can over 200 statements by police be changed presumably in the police | :47:01. | :47:03. | |
service without people being able to say to members of Parliament this is | :47:04. | :47:07. | |
wrong. There is a cover-up and it needs turning over and investigating | :47:08. | :47:14. | |
and brought out into intelligent transparency. I think that is the | :47:15. | :47:18. | |
lesson from now on. Mike honourable friend makes a very important point | :47:19. | :47:22. | |
and of course he himself has also been as a member of this house is | :47:23. | :47:25. | |
somebody who has taken forward causes that others have found and | :47:26. | :47:32. | |
stood against and tried to resist and has been successful in some of | :47:33. | :47:39. | |
those. But he is absolutely right. I think it is astonishing that the, | :47:40. | :47:44. | |
and this is what came out of the independent panel report, I think | :47:45. | :47:46. | |
people were truly shocked by the fact that they have heard that | :47:47. | :47:51. | |
statements had been altered and that the in order to show a different | :47:52. | :47:55. | |
picture of what had happened from what had actually happened. That is | :47:56. | :47:57. | |
appalling and it should never happen again. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Can I | :47:58. | :48:04. | |
put the record my thanks to be Home Secretary and also for her | :48:05. | :48:07. | |
statements, but also for the magnificent courage and | :48:08. | :48:09. | |
steadfastness of the families of the 96 and the campaign that they | :48:10. | :48:14. | |
created. After the 2000 and publication of the independent panel | :48:15. | :48:20. | |
report, I re-read my match day programme for the 15th of April | :48:21. | :48:24. | |
1989, and I was struck by the comment from the chairman of | :48:25. | :48:27. | |
Sheffield Wednesday Football Club. He said, as you look around | :48:28. | :48:30. | |
Hillsborough, you will appreciate why it has been regarded as long as | :48:31. | :48:33. | |
the perfect venue for all kinds of matches. If you statements, I think, | :48:34. | :48:40. | |
which underlined a complacency and total disregard for the safety of | :48:41. | :48:45. | |
football supporters. I want to bring my question to two points. One, | :48:46. | :48:48. | |
going back to what the honourable member said which is regarding the | :48:49. | :48:54. | |
current Chief Constable of South Yorkshire Police. Is she aware that | :48:55. | :48:59. | |
the statement he made in 2012, apologising to fans, is still on the | :49:00. | :49:03. | |
website and that he said he was profoundly sorry for the way the | :49:04. | :49:07. | |
force had failed and doubly sorry for the injustice that followed, and | :49:08. | :49:12. | |
yet we had a representative of the police going over the same argument | :49:13. | :49:17. | |
to gain. My final point is to focus on the South Yorkshire Police and it | :49:18. | :49:21. | |
is about the West Midlands Police because they were responsible for | :49:22. | :49:24. | |
the investigation. As we've seen from the result yesterday, it was a | :49:25. | :49:28. | |
sham. It was complacent and a complete waste of time. Issue doing | :49:29. | :49:33. | |
to make sure that they are accountable for what they did? -- | :49:34. | :49:37. | |
what is she doing. I think the comment that the honourable | :49:38. | :49:40. | |
gentleman raised that was in the programme for the day. In a sense, | :49:41. | :49:44. | |
as he said, it shows the extraordinary complacency that was | :49:45. | :49:48. | |
around and as I indicated in my statement, there were several | :49:49. | :49:50. | |
questions that related not just to Sheffield Wednesday Football Club | :49:51. | :49:53. | |
but also to the engineers who designed the stadium and the jury | :49:54. | :49:57. | |
were very clear that there were problems with the design of the | :49:58. | :50:01. | |
stadium and with the certification process and I think there are some | :50:02. | :50:05. | |
very real questions for those in authority who allowed a game to take | :50:06. | :50:12. | |
place in a ground which had those particular problems. Obviously, the | :50:13. | :50:16. | |
IPCC is looking at the question of the aftermath of the events that | :50:17. | :50:21. | |
took place. Operation resolve is looking at the lead up to the depths | :50:22. | :50:27. | |
of the 96 men, women and children, but in doing that, there will be | :50:28. | :50:34. | |
look at the work of police officers and I can assure the honourable | :50:35. | :50:37. | |
gentleman that evidence that has been taking, my understanding is | :50:38. | :50:41. | |
that obviously this will cover things that have been done by West | :50:42. | :50:44. | |
Midlands as well is Yorkshire police. I would like to begin by | :50:45. | :50:49. | |
paying tribute to my right honourable friend and to the | :50:50. | :50:52. | |
honourable gentleman and particularly to the families of the | :50:53. | :50:58. | |
96 victims for the Herculean efforts in bringing about the result we saw | :50:59. | :51:02. | |
the other day. Does my honourable friend agree with me that there were | :51:03. | :51:08. | |
slurs made against the families. These work and injustice and it is | :51:09. | :51:12. | |
right now that they are recognised as smears. My honourable friend is | :51:13. | :51:18. | |
absolutely right and of course those slurs continued. They were not just | :51:19. | :51:23. | |
at the time. They continued for far too long and it is a further | :51:24. | :51:31. | |
injustice that the families had to endure and the supporters had to | :51:32. | :51:34. | |
endure, not just the terrible tragedy of the day itself, but the | :51:35. | :51:37. | |
fact that they were consistently blamed for something which was not | :51:38. | :51:42. | |
their fault. And the verdict that came out yesterday was absolutely | :51:43. | :51:46. | |
clear. The fans did not contribute to this disaster. The inquest | :51:47. | :51:56. | |
verdicts proclaim the truth. And expose the deceit including the | :51:57. | :52:03. | |
wicked lie that the fans were responsible for their own deaths. | :52:04. | :52:06. | |
And we should never, ever forget that the truth has only been finally | :52:07. | :52:12. | |
exposed because of the commitment of the bereaved families, supported by | :52:13. | :52:19. | |
the city of Liverpool, whatever the rest of the country might have | :52:20. | :52:23. | |
thought, in their determined campaign for truth, and I to thank | :52:24. | :52:28. | |
the Home Secretary and the former Attorney General for the decisive | :52:29. | :52:30. | |
steps that were taking is making sure that justice has now come out. | :52:31. | :52:36. | |
But I would like to ask the Home Secretary, following her very | :52:37. | :52:43. | |
supportive comments about the steps she intends to take forward in | :52:44. | :52:48. | |
support of the families, as we move from exposure of the truth to | :52:49. | :52:52. | |
accountability, will she do all within our power to ensure that now | :52:53. | :52:55. | |
we have the truth, real accountability will follow? Yes. I | :52:56. | :53:02. | |
thank the honourable lady for her comments and she is absolutely | :53:03. | :53:05. | |
right. The city of Liverpool stood by the families, when the rest of | :53:06. | :53:08. | |
the country actually took a different view as to what had | :53:09. | :53:13. | |
happened in that terrible tragedy. I am very clear that we need to ensure | :53:14. | :53:19. | |
that the proper processes are followed for the investigations and | :53:20. | :53:23. | |
for the Crown Prosecution Service's decisions as to whether criminal | :53:24. | :53:25. | |
charges should be brought, because that issue of whether truth was | :53:26. | :53:33. | |
there and with the verdicts, justice has been seen with the verdict that | :53:34. | :53:39. | |
came out and accountability is the next step and that of course rests | :53:40. | :53:42. | |
with the independent investigations and the CPS. | :53:43. | :54:02. | |
The strength of the families makes me proud to be a Scouser. There is | :54:03. | :54:07. | |
talk of justice. I don't think it has taken -- it should have taken 27 | :54:08. | :54:12. | |
years by the fans to be found not guilty. The city and the fans were | :54:13. | :54:18. | |
kicked when they were on their lowest. The Home Secretary agrees | :54:19. | :54:24. | |
that justice starts when the individuals responsible are | :54:25. | :54:29. | |
personally prosecuted. I thank my honourable friend for his comments | :54:30. | :54:33. | |
and he is writes and it must be very difficult for the families, but have | :54:34. | :54:42. | |
kept true to their cause and to their belief in the reality of what | :54:43. | :54:46. | |
happened at the Hillsborough stadium in 1989. They must have felt, I | :54:47. | :54:52. | |
think, terrible when they had been kicked to constantly over those 27 | :54:53. | :54:53. | |
years. This isn't just about finding the | :54:54. | :55:01. | |
truth but about accountability as I've just indicated in response to | :55:02. | :55:06. | |
the previous question. That process of accountability is now in the | :55:07. | :55:10. | |
hands of the two criminal investigations and the Crown | :55:11. | :55:16. | |
Prosecution Service. The inquest findings were very clear that on the | :55:17. | :55:20. | |
day of the disaster, South Yorkshire Police failed completely in a number | :55:21. | :55:25. | |
of respects. What is even more alarming is attempts to cover up | :55:26. | :55:30. | |
those failings afterwards. Can I reflect on what my right honourable | :55:31. | :55:33. | |
friend said from the front bench that this should not in any way | :55:34. | :55:38. | |
reflect on the work that the ordinary officers of South Yorkshire | :55:39. | :55:41. | |
Police are doing on a day-to-day basis, very important work for the | :55:42. | :55:45. | |
security and safety of my residence in South Yorkshire. We'll Home | :55:46. | :55:51. | |
Secretary offer complete support to the PCC in South Yorkshire to take | :55:52. | :55:55. | |
the force through a very difficult time, recognising that the complete | :55:56. | :56:00. | |
command structure of the force will change during the course of the next | :56:01. | :56:03. | |
year and we'll need every bit of outside support we can get from the | :56:04. | :56:08. | |
Home Secretary and others. Can I thank the honourable gentleman for | :56:09. | :56:13. | |
his comments and he's absolutely right, we should recognise the work | :56:14. | :56:17. | |
done on a daily basis day by South Yorkshire Police officers to keep | :56:18. | :56:20. | |
their communities safe and cut crime. Could I also take this | :56:21. | :56:22. | |
opportunity in response to him to opportunity in response to him to | :56:23. | :56:26. | |
recognise in this House the support that was given by people living in | :56:27. | :56:32. | |
Sheffield to those fans and others who suffered from this tragedy on | :56:33. | :56:37. | |
the day. And he's right that South Yorkshire Police force is a force | :56:38. | :56:45. | |
which has not just been dealing with the outcome of the Hillsborough | :56:46. | :56:49. | |
findings, of course we've also seen issues around the Rotherham report | :56:50. | :56:55. | |
am a number of issues around South Yorkshire force, he asks me to | :56:56. | :56:58. | |
provide support to the police and crime commission are of course. Next | :56:59. | :57:02. | |
week, the people of the South Yorkshire force area will be going | :57:03. | :57:06. | |
to the polls to elect the Police and Crime Commissioner for the next four | :57:07. | :57:12. | |
years. But of course, we will be talking to the Police and Crime | :57:13. | :57:16. | |
Commissioner thereafter and achieve comes to about the future of the | :57:17. | :57:20. | |
force but it is for those two individuals primarily to look-up the | :57:21. | :57:24. | |
structures they need to ensure the fourth is doing the job it needs to | :57:25. | :57:30. | |
do on a daily basis. I commend the Home Secretary and most certainly | :57:31. | :57:34. | |
commend the right horrible member for league for what they've done in | :57:35. | :57:38. | |
this and all the members from Liverpool who are taking part in | :57:39. | :57:43. | |
debates -- league. Everyone knows my connection with football and what | :57:44. | :57:46. | |
happened on this particular day which I've demonstrated in this | :57:47. | :57:50. | |
House. Football suffered massively on that horrible day, the family of | :57:51. | :57:56. | |
football looked upon that tragedy and it changed many things from | :57:57. | :58:01. | |
stadium safety to how things are policed around football games. But I | :58:02. | :58:07. | |
do fear coming here that the one group of people, cultures that | :58:08. | :58:13. | |
exists in South Yorkshire, in the police force, by statement on its | :58:14. | :58:18. | |
website and indeed statements its making, that still has not learnt | :58:19. | :58:23. | |
all the lessons from that tragedy all that time ago. I wonder if Home | :58:24. | :58:27. | |
Secretary could comment on what's going on in South Yorkshire and its | :58:28. | :58:32. | |
police force at this point in time? I have to say to my honourable | :58:33. | :58:38. | |
friend that I think everybody will be disappointed and indeed concerned | :58:39. | :58:43. | |
by some of the remarks being made by South Yorkshire Police today. There | :58:44. | :58:47. | |
was a very clear verdict yesterday in relation to the decisions that | :58:48. | :58:54. | |
were taken by police officers and the action of police officers on the | :58:55. | :58:59. | |
15th of April 1989 and I would urge South Yorkshire Police force to | :59:00. | :59:05. | |
recognise the verdict of the jury. Yes, they must get on with the | :59:06. | :59:10. | |
day-to-day job today policing within their force area. But I think they | :59:11. | :59:13. | |
do need to look at what happened, at what the verdicts have shown, | :59:14. | :59:20. | |
recognise the truth and be willing to accept that. Maria Eagle. I would | :59:21. | :59:28. | |
like to thank the Home Secretary for a statement and in particular for a | :59:29. | :59:32. | |
decision when she came into office in 2010 to allow the work of the | :59:33. | :59:36. | |
Hillsborough Independent panel to continue. That has been absolutely | :59:37. | :59:40. | |
crucial in this outcome for the one I was first elected in 1997, my | :59:41. | :59:46. | |
constituents Phil Hammond, Doreen Jones and Jenny Hicks with some of | :59:47. | :59:49. | |
the first people to come to see me. They were then part of the executive | :59:50. | :59:55. | |
of the Hillsborough Family Support Group. Between them they lost five | :59:56. | :59:59. | |
family members and they came to see me about the disaster. I campaigned | :00:00. | :00:03. | |
with them ever since to have the truth acknowledged and to have | :00:04. | :00:12. | |
justice done because we all knew the truth. It just seems to be the legal | :00:13. | :00:16. | |
system in this country and I speak as a lawyer, that has been unable to | :00:17. | :00:22. | |
get to the truth and accept the truth. For 27 years it's failed of | :00:23. | :00:26. | |
them at every turn. Almost everything that could go wrong in a | :00:27. | :00:32. | |
legal case has gone wrong. In those 27 years. Yesterday, it finally did | :00:33. | :00:37. | |
its job but it has more to do I think to hold to account those who | :00:38. | :00:41. | |
we now know for absolute certain seats are responsible and she has | :00:42. | :00:45. | |
more to do I think to deal with the appalling culture and behaviour of | :00:46. | :00:49. | |
South Yorkshire Police, which has persisted to this day. Mr Speaker, | :00:50. | :00:56. | |
this disaster was filmed live and shown on television. Within months | :00:57. | :01:03. | |
the interim report of the Taylor enquiry put the blame squarely where | :01:04. | :01:09. | |
it actually lay. It didn't get everything right but it was | :01:10. | :01:13. | |
substantially correct. Yet, for 27 years, the families of those who | :01:14. | :01:18. | |
died have had to come every day, defended the reputations of their | :01:19. | :01:24. | |
lost loved ones and of their friends and people who live in Liverpool who | :01:25. | :01:30. | |
have been blamed for what happened. It's only the panel taking it out of | :01:31. | :01:35. | |
the legal system that has led to that she's being acknowledged more | :01:36. | :01:39. | |
widely than it was known and it then being fed back into the legal | :01:40. | :01:44. | |
system. There is a deep issue here about the legal system, so will she | :01:45. | :01:49. | |
now commit to supporting Lord Michael Wills's Public advocate Bill | :01:50. | :01:53. | |
to ensure that the victims are public disasters, and there will be | :01:54. | :01:57. | |
more in future, it never regain forced to spend decades of their | :01:58. | :02:05. | |
life fighting smears, lies, official denials, indifference and cover-ups | :02:06. | :02:09. | |
from public authorities. We have to make sure this can never ever happen | :02:10. | :02:17. | |
again. The honourable lady is right that we need to stand back and ask | :02:18. | :02:21. | |
what it is about our system that enabled this to happen and enabled | :02:22. | :02:25. | |
people to suffer over those 27 years in this way. One of the reasons I | :02:26. | :02:32. | |
asked Bishop James Jones to work with the families to hear from them | :02:33. | :02:36. | |
their experiences is to try to learn from that and see what steps we need | :02:37. | :02:42. | |
to take in response to that. But I think one of the things that has | :02:43. | :02:46. | |
come out of this is that that panel model I think is a model that can be | :02:47. | :02:50. | |
used elsewhere. If the model which I have indeed used with fewer members | :02:51. | :02:55. | |
in relation to the necessity of looking into the killing of Daniel | :02:56. | :03:00. | |
Morgan. Where, again, the legal system to a number of cases is | :03:01. | :03:04. | |
failed to get to the truth. And I think it is a method and a model | :03:05. | :03:11. | |
that we could see being used on other occasions in the future. I | :03:12. | :03:16. | |
congratulate my right honourable friend for the statement she has | :03:17. | :03:22. | |
made today. It is painfully clear that for over 20 years, honourable | :03:23. | :03:25. | |
members in this place did not take the opportunities that were | :03:26. | :03:28. | |
available to them to bring the matter to this chamber. And | :03:29. | :03:33. | |
therefore, spread the light of transparency on something which | :03:34. | :03:35. | |
happened because terrible I want to put it on record the Member for | :03:36. | :03:40. | |
Liverpool Walton was far too humble to say the role he played when we | :03:41. | :03:43. | |
were first elected in 2010, he took a group of us in the backbench | :03:44. | :03:48. | |
business debate in a committee room and secured a debate to make sure | :03:49. | :03:52. | |
the light shone on what was a terrible incident and we have a | :03:53. | :03:56. | |
right where we are today and I thank him for it. My honourable friend has | :03:57. | :04:01. | |
recognised the particular role played by a single member of this | :04:02. | :04:06. | |
House. I might say that I think over the years a number of members of | :04:07. | :04:10. | |
this House have raised this issue. The fact that authority didn't | :04:11. | :04:16. | |
listen to the issue being raised is entirely separate. George Howarth. | :04:17. | :04:25. | |
Can I add my thanks to the Home Secretary for the crucial role she | :04:26. | :04:30. | |
has played in bringing this matter to a reasonable conclusion at this | :04:31. | :04:36. | |
point. Could I also ask to consider alongside others the extent to which | :04:37. | :04:47. | |
the lazy, dishonest, inaccurate, stereotyping of football fans in | :04:48. | :04:54. | |
collusion with some sections of the media, gave some credibility, | :04:55. | :05:02. | |
wrongly, to a failed original inquest which I attended a day of | :05:03. | :05:06. | |
and which was agony for those families listening there day after | :05:07. | :05:10. | |
day to their loved ones who died being denigrated in the way that the | :05:11. | :05:16. | |
questions were put. And will she also agree with me that many other | :05:17. | :05:24. | |
failures result from that lazy assumption that football fans in | :05:25. | :05:28. | |
general and the people of Liverpool in particular in some way were | :05:29. | :05:34. | |
culpable in what was a matter completely beyond their control. | :05:35. | :05:40. | |
When she asks the Bishop and others to look at the implications of all | :05:41. | :05:45. | |
this, ask him to look at this question as well. Why is it that | :05:46. | :05:51. | |
some sections of the media, some sections of public services | :05:52. | :05:54. | |
including the police and Amblin service, still feel that they can | :05:55. | :06:00. | |
casually disregarded the truth by accepting lazy stereotypes? He makes | :06:01. | :06:07. | |
a very important point and he's absolutely right. There was an image | :06:08. | :06:13. | |
of football fans that people held to regardless of what they saw going on | :06:14. | :06:17. | |
in front of their very eyes and I was struck, I was hearing radio to | :06:18. | :06:23. | |
commentary which is taking place the time, as the event unfolded, as the | :06:24. | :06:26. | |
tragedy unfolded and even at that time some of the commentating, some | :06:27. | :06:32. | |
of the assumptions being made were about unruly fans rather than about | :06:33. | :06:37. | |
people who were crying out for help as they were dying. And to see the | :06:38. | :06:46. | |
police actually being lined up against public order problems, when | :06:47. | :06:49. | |
there were people there whose lives were being lost at the time, is I | :06:50. | :06:55. | |
think shocking and pulls us all now that he's right, we should never | :06:56. | :06:58. | |
allow casual stereotypes to get in the way of the truth. That appals | :06:59. | :07:05. | |
us. I do not represent Liverpool but I was so fortunate to live there for | :07:06. | :07:10. | |
the best part of the 1990s and it's a wonderful city, decent people, | :07:11. | :07:14. | |
thoroughly decent people, and I believe the way those families | :07:15. | :07:16. | |
conducted themselves over 30 years has shown that to those of us who | :07:17. | :07:22. | |
knew it and to everybody else, I was very fortunate to take over one of | :07:23. | :07:25. | |
the student unions in Liverpool in the 90s and I was told in no | :07:26. | :07:30. | |
uncertain Scouse terms why we didn't stock all newspapers in the student | :07:31. | :07:33. | |
newspaper shop and I've never forgotten that and many shops and | :07:34. | :07:38. | |
stores in Liverpool still don't stock the full condiment as members | :07:39. | :07:46. | |
opposite will know. What is the main lesson that the Home Secretary | :07:47. | :07:51. | |
thinks we should learn from this and that she thinks some elements of the | :07:52. | :07:55. | |
British press which apologised several times since, although it | :07:56. | :07:58. | |
means little to all of the families public in Liverpool, should take a | :07:59. | :08:06. | |
long hard look at themselves? Well, I think it's important in terms of, | :08:07. | :08:10. | |
when information is being spread to the public through the media, the | :08:11. | :08:13. | |
voracity of that information must be an issue that is considered. And he | :08:14. | :08:20. | |
asked me what the overall abiding lesson we need to take from this is | :08:21. | :08:26. | |
about and I think it is about this whole issue that my right honourable | :08:27. | :08:29. | |
friend, the Member for Beaconsfield, referred to, about the culture and | :08:30. | :08:34. | |
attitude taken, about public institutions whose job is to work in | :08:35. | :08:39. | |
the public interest, who should be institutions which can be trusted by | :08:40. | :08:44. | |
the public, whose job often is to protect the public, when something | :08:45. | :08:49. | |
happens, not instinctively wanting to protect themselves instead, but | :08:50. | :08:53. | |
actually always having that a view that, whatever has happened, | :08:54. | :08:58. | |
whatever the answer, they must find the truth for the public. I hope the | :08:59. | :09:05. | |
House will forgive me at the risk of stating the obvious if colleagues | :09:06. | :09:08. | |
are concerned about their own contribution, I will of course call | :09:09. | :09:12. | |
every colleague. This is a little different from other days and | :09:13. | :09:17. | |
therefore, there is some latitude. People must say what they want to | :09:18. | :09:21. | |
say, so if people about other commitments, I'm sorry about that, | :09:22. | :09:24. | |
but if people say, they will be heard. Thank you, Mr Speaker, as | :09:25. | :09:31. | |
chair of the all-party group on the Hillsborough disaster, may I put on | :09:32. | :09:36. | |
record my thanks to you, Mr Speaker, you've been incredibly supportive | :09:37. | :09:40. | |
but especially on behalf of the group, thanks to the Home Secretary | :09:41. | :09:45. | |
and her staff and to all of those officials and members of Parliament, | :09:46. | :09:50. | |
staff as well, who have worked to help our group function over the | :09:51. | :09:54. | |
past four years. To finally know the true verdict, that these killings | :09:55. | :09:59. | |
were unlawful, it's just a huge weight lifted. But there is one | :10:00. | :10:05. | |
issue, Mr Speaker, the campaign for justice, it's never been for | :10:06. | :10:10. | |
Liverpool fans alone. Shirts of all different teams have been worn at | :10:11. | :10:16. | |
the memorial service and for the 25th anniversary, members of this | :10:17. | :10:21. | |
House, from all parts of the country as found with me to Anfield the | :10:22. | :10:27. | |
scarf of the local team. That is why, at the recent memorial service, | :10:28. | :10:33. | |
Trevor Hicks was absolutely right to ask football fans to be united in | :10:34. | :10:38. | |
their grief though rivals in the game. Mr Speaker, I have one last | :10:39. | :10:44. | |
thing to say. The merger of murders chant has got to stop now. What the | :10:45. | :10:48. | |
Home Secretary agree with me that there are no excuses. We have the | :10:49. | :10:55. | |
truth. Those who have suffered because of the Hillsborough disaster | :10:56. | :10:58. | |
have frankly now suffered enough -- murderer's murder. | :10:59. | :11:04. | |
I agree with the honourable lady. I think to those who've been through | :11:05. | :11:10. | |
everything they have been through 427 years, we now have the truth. | :11:11. | :11:17. | |
They have suffered enough I hope, as I said, that the peace they have | :11:18. | :11:21. | |
long been denied, will now come to them and all there is still part of | :11:22. | :11:27. | |
this process to ensure accountability, although I hope they | :11:28. | :11:29. | |
will be able to take some comfort from the verdicts that at last what | :11:30. | :11:34. | |
they knew on that day has been shown to be true. My constituency is part | :11:35. | :11:46. | |
of Merseyside and I have many Liverpudlians in my constituency who | :11:47. | :11:49. | |
welcome the determinations but for me it is but for the grace of God go | :11:50. | :11:53. | |
I for those of us who went to football matches in the 1970s and | :11:54. | :11:58. | |
1980s, the facilities were terrible and crushes were regular. The one | :11:59. | :12:01. | |
thing I want to remind the house is that Hillsborough 1981 FA Cup final, | :12:02. | :12:06. | |
if you look at the Tottenham Hotspur Wolverhampton game, there was a very | :12:07. | :12:11. | |
similar crush and please allow the fans onto the pitch. It looks very | :12:12. | :12:15. | |
similar to the scene many years later in 1989, and what it tells the | :12:16. | :12:20. | |
houses that lessons clearly were not learned. As the member for Bolton | :12:21. | :12:25. | |
who was that the game said, that facility was never fit for purpose. | :12:26. | :12:28. | |
But I would like to pay tribute to my honourable friend the Home | :12:29. | :12:32. | |
Secretary and for the members on the opposite benches, particularly the | :12:33. | :12:37. | |
member who made the speech of his parliamentary career. Also the | :12:38. | :12:45. | |
members for Will and Liverpool who have consistently campaigned on | :12:46. | :12:50. | |
behalf of their constituents for justice and will my honourable | :12:51. | :12:54. | |
friend the Home Secretary assure the house that lessons will be learned | :12:55. | :12:58. | |
and I welcome Bishop James's report that no family should ever have to | :12:59. | :13:02. | |
go through this tragedy again. I honourable friend is absolutely | :13:03. | :13:05. | |
right and sadly the example that he shows us of that game in 1981 shows | :13:06. | :13:09. | |
that at that time, lessons were not learned. We need to make sure that | :13:10. | :13:13. | |
whatever comes out of the work with the families and the various other | :13:14. | :13:21. | |
reports and all that we are now seeing, that we do learn lessons and | :13:22. | :13:25. | |
not just say that we are doing it but actually put what is necessary | :13:26. | :13:32. | |
into practice. The jury has determined that what happened on the | :13:33. | :13:36. | |
day was negligent, unlawful, criminal. It was also tragic and | :13:37. | :13:43. | |
unintended. In the 27 years since, they have not been unintended. They | :13:44. | :13:48. | |
have been deliberate lies and deception, so when the Home | :13:49. | :13:53. | |
Secretary is resourced Singh -- resource in the criminal charges | :13:54. | :13:57. | |
that may be brought, will she assure that appropriate emphasis is placed | :13:58. | :14:00. | |
on perversion of the course of justice, conspiracy to pervert the | :14:01. | :14:04. | |
course of justice, and perjury. Because that is where the real evil | :14:05. | :14:12. | |
lies. As I indicated in my statement to the house, both the question of | :14:13. | :14:16. | |
perversion of the course of justice and perjury are issues that will be | :14:17. | :14:21. | |
looked at, but it is of course for the Independent Crown Prosecution | :14:22. | :14:23. | |
Service to decide whether they choose to bring charges on those or | :14:24. | :14:31. | |
any other criminal charges. Can I first of all start by paying my | :14:32. | :14:36. | |
tribute to the families who have fought longer than before some | :14:37. | :14:43. | |
people in the cells were even born have had to fight the state and it | :14:44. | :14:50. | |
is appalling. I would like to thank my honourable friend the Home | :14:51. | :14:53. | |
Secretary for everything she has done and all of the members locally | :14:54. | :14:57. | |
who've worked for so many years. I just want to paper Diggle attributed | :14:58. | :15:04. | |
to the -- I want to pay particular tribute to the members who have been | :15:05. | :15:09. | |
in communication with me. I just want to say that for those who are | :15:10. | :15:16. | |
not related to the area and have found this so hard and so difficult, | :15:17. | :15:19. | |
it is because we all have families and we all have parents. Some of us | :15:20. | :15:27. | |
have children. We all go to events with hundreds and thousands of | :15:28. | :15:31. | |
events and if you send someone to an event, perfectly legally, you have a | :15:32. | :15:34. | |
right to expect that the authorities will look after you. And those | :15:35. | :15:38. | |
people who died at Hillsborough on that tragic day got there early. By | :15:39. | :15:44. | |
definition, they were at the front of those pens. They were ticketed. | :15:45. | :15:49. | |
And it is a stain on the society forevermore that the state said it | :15:50. | :15:52. | |
was their fault, because it was obvious from day one, from the very | :15:53. | :15:55. | |
moment, that it could not have been their fault. And I fully have a huge | :15:56. | :16:01. | |
amount of respect for the member for Sheffield South East and indeed we | :16:02. | :16:06. | |
have debated this and he's absolutely right when he says that | :16:07. | :16:09. | |
the police officers on the front line for South Yorkshire Police do | :16:10. | :16:12. | |
an outstanding job every day and they deserve our respect, but the | :16:13. | :16:16. | |
behaviour of South Yorkshire Police during this enquiry and the | :16:17. | :16:19. | |
subsequent comments and the verdict has come out, which can leave no | :16:20. | :16:23. | |
doubt in anybody's's mind in this country that these people were | :16:24. | :16:26. | |
unlawfully killed, has been disgraceful. And I think it is a | :16:27. | :16:31. | |
stain on the name of South Yorkshire Police, which I am not sure can ever | :16:32. | :16:36. | |
be raised, so as controversial as this is, could I ask my right | :16:37. | :16:40. | |
honourable friend, working with other members cross party, to | :16:41. | :16:45. | |
consider very seriously, and I did not expect an answer today, whether | :16:46. | :16:51. | |
the only way that fate can be brought back to policing in South | :16:52. | :16:55. | |
Yorkshire and indeed to make sure that the officers who dedicate | :16:56. | :16:58. | |
themselves to protecting the public in South Yorkshire can only really | :16:59. | :17:04. | |
move forward by perhaps merging all for Yorkshire police forces and | :17:05. | :17:07. | |
getting rid of the name of South Yorkshire Police. My honourable | :17:08. | :17:11. | |
friend has asked me a question which is actually slightly wider, I would | :17:12. | :17:18. | |
suggest, than simply the question of South Yorkshire Police when he talks | :17:19. | :17:22. | |
about merging all four forces in Yorkshire. What I would say to my | :17:23. | :17:27. | |
honourable friend is that he is absolutely right both to identify | :17:28. | :17:34. | |
the fact that fans who go along to a football match, to any other public | :17:35. | :17:39. | |
event, where organisers have put in place arrangements to ensure the | :17:40. | :17:45. | |
safety of the people there, and if there is policing of those events, | :17:46. | :17:48. | |
they expect those arrangements to keep them safe and secure. They | :17:49. | :17:53. | |
expect those to have been done properly, to have been done | :17:54. | :17:56. | |
carefully, to have been thought through and for the right decisions | :17:57. | :18:00. | |
to have been taken. And there are many people, as he said, who were | :18:01. | :18:07. | |
not Liverpool fans but to recognise what those families went through on | :18:08. | :18:14. | |
that day as they themselves, week in and week out, go to similar events. | :18:15. | :18:21. | |
Hoping to enjoy themselves and not expecting the terrible tragedy that | :18:22. | :18:24. | |
befell the families and supporters on that terrible day. But he has | :18:25. | :18:30. | |
asked me to reflect on an issue. I think he knows the Government's | :18:31. | :18:34. | |
position on the merging of forces, but as I have said, I think South | :18:35. | :18:38. | |
Yorkshire Police will meet to look very carefully at the verdict that | :18:39. | :18:40. | |
has come out and accept that verdict. Can I commend the Home | :18:41. | :18:49. | |
Secretary and my honourable friend the member for Leeds for the work | :18:50. | :18:52. | |
they have done and all the members of this house. It is often the role | :18:53. | :18:58. | |
of a member of Parliament to give a strong voice to the week and this | :18:59. | :19:02. | |
has been one of those examples. I would like to say a word of | :19:03. | :19:07. | |
gratitude for the kind words from the member from earlier on from | :19:08. | :19:12. | |
Worthing West. There are comparisons here with the Stephen Lawrence | :19:13. | :19:16. | |
family and friends and to the Hillsborough families. And they have | :19:17. | :19:20. | |
certainly been a strong voice for themselves and an advocate for | :19:21. | :19:24. | |
themselves and an example to us all. But they were signatories to the | :19:25. | :19:28. | |
letter that was sent earlier this month to the Prime Minister asking | :19:29. | :19:32. | |
him not to renege on his promise to implement Levenson two and given | :19:33. | :19:38. | |
that that relates to the relationship between the police and | :19:39. | :19:42. | |
the press, it would seem that that is even more imperative that we go | :19:43. | :19:47. | |
ahead with that part of the Levenson report. So good the Home Secretary | :19:48. | :19:51. | |
perhaps have a word with the Prime Minister and asking to expedite that | :19:52. | :19:57. | |
as quickly as possible? I say to the honourable gentleman that of course | :19:58. | :20:00. | |
some of the issues about the relationship between the media and | :20:01. | :20:03. | |
the police were identified in leathers in one, in that report, and | :20:04. | :20:08. | |
these recommendations have been taken by the police. -- Levenson. As | :20:09. | :20:14. | |
I said earlier, we have always been very clear that any investigations | :20:15. | :20:19. | |
that were taking place needed to be completed before a decision was | :20:20. | :20:24. | |
taken about whether Sin two. There are still investigations in hand is | :20:25. | :20:28. | |
being undertaken. -- whether Sin. And this is why I do not think it is | :20:29. | :20:32. | |
appropriate at this time to take a decision. -- birdie. It is days like | :20:33. | :20:42. | |
this that really make you think in this house. Will my honourable | :20:43. | :20:45. | |
friend commit to making sure that all of these resources will be | :20:46. | :20:49. | |
brought to a speedy conclusion and a thorough conclusion because the | :20:50. | :20:53. | |
families have suffered far far, far too long already. I can assure my | :20:54. | :20:57. | |
honourable friend that the Home Office has been making funding | :20:58. | :21:04. | |
available for operation resolve. Specifically, as that is part of the | :21:05. | :21:08. | |
investigation, and ensuring that the IPCC has what it needs to be able to | :21:09. | :21:14. | |
conduct these investigations. Then, of course it will go to the CPS. But | :21:15. | :21:20. | |
I'm very clear that the families deserve a thorough process | :21:21. | :21:23. | |
undertaken in a timely manner which provides them with the | :21:24. | :21:24. | |
accountability that they want. My thanks also to the Home Secretary | :21:25. | :21:33. | |
for her statement and commitment, and to all my colleagues for their | :21:34. | :21:36. | |
work for so many decades on this terrible atrocity. After 27 years of | :21:37. | :21:42. | |
pain, torment and suffering, the families of the 96 people who | :21:43. | :21:45. | |
tragically lost their lives and for the survivors, at last the dark | :21:46. | :21:51. | |
cloud is lifting. After this statement, Merseyside MPs will be | :21:52. | :21:53. | |
travelling back to Liverpool to commemorate what has happened. I | :21:54. | :21:59. | |
have no doubt that the solidarity which has prevailed in Liverpool | :22:00. | :22:03. | |
will shine bright this evening. I pay tribute to the campaigners who | :22:04. | :22:06. | |
have fought tirelessly and never given up. They have endured the | :22:07. | :22:10. | |
unendurable and they shouldn't have too wait any more. We heard the Home | :22:11. | :22:16. | |
Secretary say a moment ago about the work of the IPCC and the police and | :22:17. | :22:20. | |
their investigations which they are completing, and I echo my right | :22:21. | :22:24. | |
honourable friend's call but the fast should happen as quickly as | :22:25. | :22:29. | |
possible. Would she also commits that the CPS will use whichever | :22:30. | :22:34. | |
force it had to expedite their work? We have the force rue truth, we have | :22:35. | :22:39. | |
justice, and now we need accountability. -- we have the | :22:40. | :22:45. | |
truth. I can assure the honourable lady, and the tourney general is -- | :22:46. | :22:54. | |
tourney general is present, I repeat what I said earlier. We want this to | :22:55. | :22:58. | |
be done in a timely fashion but we want to make sure it is done | :22:59. | :23:02. | |
properly and thoroughly. I can say, having visited the work of operation | :23:03. | :23:11. | |
resolve and of the IPCC, this significant amount of material that | :23:12. | :23:14. | |
they have had to be going through. Until now, they have been supporting | :23:15. | :23:22. | |
the inquests. Now, their focus will be on preparing those files to give | :23:23. | :23:29. | |
to the CPS. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Although I have always lived at the | :23:30. | :23:33. | |
other end of the country, I have been a passionate Liverpool fan all | :23:34. | :23:36. | |
of my life and I remember very vividly watching the start of that | :23:37. | :23:40. | |
game, gutted I was not able to be there. Very quickly that feeling | :23:41. | :23:44. | |
turned to relief, that I could not be there. Although nothing could | :23:45. | :23:48. | |
compare to the grief, the pain any sense of injustice that the families | :23:49. | :23:52. | |
that lost their lives that they have suffered, it was also true that that | :23:53. | :23:56. | |
day Liverpool fans across the country were smeared and indeed all | :23:57. | :24:01. | |
football fans by what was said in the aftermath. Therefore I hugely | :24:02. | :24:08. | |
welcome that at last the truth is now known, that football fans were | :24:09. | :24:11. | |
not responsible for what happened that day. But it is an absolute | :24:12. | :24:16. | |
scandal that has taken 27 years to get to the truth. Can I ask my right | :24:17. | :24:20. | |
honourable friend the Home Secretary, does she agree with me | :24:21. | :24:23. | |
that not only must we never forget the 96 who died that day, but we | :24:24. | :24:28. | |
must also never be allowed to forget that it was those in authority that | :24:29. | :24:33. | |
chose to cover up their responsibility in this tragedy? And | :24:34. | :24:36. | |
instead chose to smear the name of a great football club, a great city | :24:37. | :24:41. | |
and Indy football fans everywhere. My honourable friend is absolutely | :24:42. | :24:46. | |
right. As he has recognised, there are not just football fans around | :24:47. | :24:49. | |
the rest of the country and around the globe, but Liverpool supporters | :24:50. | :24:53. | |
around the rest of the country and around the globe. And I cannot | :24:54. | :25:01. | |
reiterate enough how appalling it was that everybody, and it was not | :25:02. | :25:07. | |
just organs of the state and other agencies, but actually there was | :25:08. | :25:10. | |
just a general public feeling that somehow the fans must be | :25:11. | :25:16. | |
responsible. And those that question seven and the supplementary to | :25:17. | :25:19. | |
question seven of the verdicts yesterday were absolutely clear, | :25:20. | :25:24. | |
they were asked, was that any behaviour on the part of football | :25:25. | :25:27. | |
supporters which caused or contributed to the danger of the | :25:28. | :25:30. | |
situation at the turnstiles, or which may have caused or contributed | :25:31. | :25:35. | |
to the danger of the situation at the turnstiles, and the answer was | :25:36. | :25:42. | |
clear - no. The verdicts yesterday are both truly momentous, but long | :25:43. | :25:48. | |
overdue. Can I join and others in the House to pay tribute to the | :25:49. | :25:53. | |
campaigners, the families, the friends and the survivors of what | :25:54. | :25:57. | |
happened in Hillsborough, and to welcome very warmly the Home | :25:58. | :26:00. | |
Secretary's statement and to be incredibly powerful response from my | :26:01. | :26:04. | |
right honourable friend, the Shadow Home Secretary. Can I join with him | :26:05. | :26:08. | |
and my neighbour, the MP for waiver tree, in urging the Government and | :26:09. | :26:14. | |
the Home Secretary to do all that is possible to press the CPS to make | :26:15. | :26:17. | |
their decisions of quickly as possible, because that is certainly | :26:18. | :26:21. | |
what the families and survivors want to happen here. Certainly, it is the | :26:22. | :26:28. | |
Government's desire and intention and hope that the CPS will be able | :26:29. | :26:31. | |
to make their decisions as quickly as possible, immensely rich with | :26:32. | :26:36. | |
exercising their proper independent consideration of the fact that they | :26:37. | :26:42. | |
see. -- comments to it. What hit them about this tragedy is that for | :26:43. | :26:46. | |
any of us who have been an away fine or stood on a terrace, we can | :26:47. | :26:51. | |
picture ourselves in that tunnel on the way, looking forward to the | :26:52. | :26:54. | |
match and hoping to see our team win. In the end, it ending up in | :26:55. | :26:58. | |
tragedy. Therefore when those fans were smeared, all of us were | :26:59. | :27:02. | |
smeared. It could have been our club, our town or our city. It was | :27:03. | :27:07. | |
only the finger of fate which meant it was Liverpool. Looking back, | :27:08. | :27:11. | |
there were steps which could have been taken to avoid this tragedy, | :27:12. | :27:15. | |
not least when I speak to Coventry City fans present at the matches in | :27:16. | :27:20. | |
1987 held at Hillsborough who recounted some of the issues during | :27:21. | :27:24. | |
those games which were not addressed with tragic consequences. After 27 | :27:25. | :27:29. | |
years, it is time for some of the organisations involved to stop the | :27:30. | :27:32. | |
denial, accept the verdict that have come out, accept the truth and move | :27:33. | :27:36. | |
on to ensure those responsibility now held responsible. My honourable | :27:37. | :27:41. | |
friend is right to refer to the issues around the stadium. Many | :27:42. | :27:47. | |
people will think it is incredible, in a sense, not just surprising, but | :27:48. | :27:52. | |
actually a game of this size took place in a stadium where, as I | :27:53. | :27:58. | |
understand, there was in the proper safety certificate should. How that | :27:59. | :28:02. | |
can be allowed to happen by the relevant authorities, I think people | :28:03. | :28:07. | |
will question for ever. So, it is absolutely issues not just about the | :28:08. | :28:11. | |
police and Ambulance Service, but the football club, the stadium and | :28:12. | :28:18. | |
the design of the stadium. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Can I thank the | :28:19. | :28:22. | |
Minister as a Merseyside MP and Liverpool Speaker? We are on the | :28:23. | :28:27. | |
last chapter of an unbearably sad book. You must recognise in this | :28:28. | :28:30. | |
world that justice doesn't compensate for loss and grief. What | :28:31. | :28:35. | |
more needs to be done. What for the families, and foreclosure? -- for | :28:36. | :28:42. | |
closure. I think the next stage is important for the families. I hope, | :28:43. | :28:49. | |
also, that the families will be able to work with Bishop James Jones and | :28:50. | :28:54. | |
will continue to work with him through the family forms, but also | :28:55. | :28:58. | |
the work he will be undertaking to hear from them and their | :28:59. | :29:01. | |
experiences. That is an important part of not just this process for | :29:02. | :29:07. | |
the families, but an important part for us of being able to ensure that | :29:08. | :29:11. | |
we have heard the experiences of the families and that we can then look | :29:12. | :29:15. | |
at these experiences and take away from that any lessons that need to | :29:16. | :29:18. | |
be learned and any government action that needs to be taken. Can I add my | :29:19. | :29:25. | |
thanks to the Home Secretary for her excellent statement today, and for | :29:26. | :29:29. | |
the work she has been doing on the Justice campaign? I look forward to | :29:30. | :29:34. | |
her response on that. Having served as a special constable in the | :29:35. | :29:38. | |
Metropolitan Police Service, I recognise the institutional | :29:39. | :29:40. | |
defensiveness that was mentioned yesterday by the families. It is not | :29:41. | :29:44. | |
a problem that is unique in South Yorkshire. We'll be Home Secretary, | :29:45. | :29:50. | |
as part of her review, look at ending the practices of offices | :29:51. | :29:53. | |
conferring together when recordings date means? The honourable lady is | :29:54. | :30:00. | |
right. It is not just in policing, there are issues for public sector | :30:01. | :30:04. | |
institutions generally about that desire to look inwards, as I | :30:05. | :30:07. | |
described earlier, and protect themselves. I will reflect on the | :30:08. | :30:15. | |
common she has made. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I'd like to thank the Home | :30:16. | :30:18. | |
Secretary for her determination in this matter, along with my | :30:19. | :30:26. | |
honourable friend the shadow secretary, and other Merseyside | :30:27. | :30:30. | |
colleagues over the many years this has taken to arrive at. Merseyside | :30:31. | :30:34. | |
victims came from Bootle, Birkenhead, Liverpool, Runcorn and | :30:35. | :30:41. | |
other Merseyside communities. There were people coming from all over the | :30:42. | :30:48. | |
country who were supporters. Cheshire, Essex, Leicestershire, | :30:49. | :30:52. | |
Derbyshire, Gloucestershire, Middlesex, Wrexham and London, | :30:53. | :30:55. | |
amongst other places. We'll be Home Secretary join with me and | :30:56. | :30:59. | |
Merseyside colleagues MPs, and the people of Merseyside, in remembering | :31:00. | :31:06. | |
those supporters and their families, wherever they came from on that | :31:07. | :31:09. | |
dreadful day, because they are now part of the Merseyside family? I am | :31:10. | :31:14. | |
very happy to join with the honourable gentleman in doing just | :31:15. | :31:17. | |
that and I think you are absolutely right to draw attention to this | :31:18. | :31:21. | |
house and the fact that many supporters that he came from all | :31:22. | :31:25. | |
parts of the country. As he said, they are now part of the Merseyside | :31:26. | :31:29. | |
family. Does the Home Secretary accept that although she gave us a | :31:30. | :31:36. | |
long, miserable litany of organisations that failed, | :31:37. | :31:39. | |
organisations whose very essence is about securing our safety, there is | :31:40. | :31:43. | |
one institution that shines through gloriously and that is called the | :31:44. | :31:47. | |
family, and particularly the families of those who were killed at | :31:48. | :31:52. | |
Hillsborough? Does she accept that whatever we try and say in this | :31:53. | :31:56. | |
house, we say it inadequately, but share in the sympathy and admiration | :31:57. | :32:00. | |
of the whole country for those families in fighting through this | :32:01. | :32:09. | |
case? Might I thank her, the Right Honourable gentleman for | :32:10. | :32:15. | |
Beaconsfield and the Bishop of Liverpool, Bishop James Jones, in | :32:16. | :32:19. | |
making those families triumph possible. Does she accept when she | :32:20. | :32:25. | |
concluded her statement, in reading the list of possible charges that | :32:26. | :32:28. | |
might now follow, that there will not only be... Vat that will be a | :32:29. | :32:38. | |
chilling task in itself, but even a greater chance for us if we have, I | :32:39. | :32:44. | |
hope, please God, the determination to see through the reform programme | :32:45. | :32:49. | |
that will be necessary of some great institutions which, in the past, we | :32:50. | :32:52. | |
have unquestionably thought were on our side, and who were on somebody | :32:53. | :33:00. | |
else's side on that fateful day? The Right Honourable gentleman raises a | :33:01. | :33:03. | |
number of points and he's absolutely right that it will be necessary for | :33:04. | :33:08. | |
us to stand back and look at how this happened, how it is and how | :33:09. | :33:14. | |
it's been 27 years which have been allowed to pass before we've come to | :33:15. | :33:18. | |
this point. That may mean taking a very difficult look, as he said, at | :33:19. | :33:24. | |
some of the institutions which people expect to protect them, but | :33:25. | :33:27. | |
on this occasion simply did the opposite. As a Doncaster and South | :33:28. | :33:37. | |
Yorkshire MP, can I express my and many people'sdiscussed at what | :33:38. | :33:42. | |
happened by the services we are meant to trust on that day in | :33:43. | :33:46. | |
Sheffield, but also our disgust at the manipulation and the delay in | :33:47. | :33:53. | |
tactics which have contributed to 27 years of heartfelt pursuit and grief | :33:54. | :33:58. | |
by the families, but also the survivors. Including the 730 people | :33:59. | :34:02. | |
who were injured on that day, many with life limiting injuries that | :34:03. | :34:06. | |
they have had to live with and face the consequences of. I believe in | :34:07. | :34:11. | |
the rule of law, and I believe in justice. But it can't take 27 years | :34:12. | :34:16. | |
to achieve the outcome that we saw yesterday. And outcome that has not | :34:17. | :34:23. | |
only validated the actions of the families and others who pursue | :34:24. | :34:26. | |
justice, that was called into question the very faith we putting | :34:27. | :34:33. | |
procedures to bring public services to account for failure. Can I ask | :34:34. | :34:37. | |
the Home Secretary to pick up on two issues which have already been | :34:38. | :34:42. | |
raised? One is about equality of access to justice. From what I have | :34:43. | :34:46. | |
seen and heard, having access and money to the legal services made a | :34:47. | :34:51. | |
big difference to these families. Secondly, we have to look at whether | :34:52. | :34:57. | |
it is right any more to have police services investigating other police | :34:58. | :35:01. | |
forces, or hospitals investigating other hospitals. Maybe there's a | :35:02. | :35:04. | |
time to look at whether we should have a more independent body that | :35:05. | :35:09. | |
oversees and looks into where our public services, sadly, failed. The | :35:10. | :35:17. | |
honourable lady raised to specific issues in her question, and it is | :35:18. | :35:26. | |
certainly the case as she raised the issue of the independent inspection | :35:27. | :35:30. | |
and the regime that should be there for inspecting public authorities. | :35:31. | :35:34. | |
It is certainly in relation to policing, one of the things we are | :35:35. | :35:40. | |
doing is changing arrangements for police complaints and the way they | :35:41. | :35:43. | |
are looking to say that serious and sensitive cases are not investigated | :35:44. | :35:48. | |
by police forces themselves, but they are taken to the IPCC. We will | :35:49. | :35:53. | |
be making changes to the IPCC and the policing and crime Bill going | :35:54. | :35:56. | |
through the House at the moment. The point that she makes about how long | :35:57. | :36:03. | |
it took, the 27 years, the fact that most of the procedures we seem to | :36:04. | :36:06. | |
have didn't allow for the truth to come out, in fact in some cases | :36:07. | :36:11. | |
stopped the truth from coming out, is an absolutely crucial point that | :36:12. | :36:15. | |
underpins all of this. I would hope that the other point she raised, but | :36:16. | :36:20. | |
Bishop James Jones is able to bring forward his review of the | :36:21. | :36:23. | |
experiences of what we need to learn from that, and this will cover | :36:24. | :36:26. | |
points that have been raised by a number of members of this house | :36:27. | :36:28. | |
today. Can I could the comments of those | :36:29. | :36:37. | |
who have banked and congratulated everyone who has campaigned, | :36:38. | :36:40. | |
including beat Home Secretary for yesterday's verdicts. 18 people who | :36:41. | :36:49. | |
died from the borough of Sefton commemorated on a memorial and as | :36:50. | :36:55. | |
today we remember all of those who died and those who were injured, it | :36:56. | :36:59. | |
is important to remember that in those 27 years, many more people | :37:00. | :37:06. | |
have full so died whilst wishing to see yesterday's verdict and not | :37:07. | :37:11. | |
living long enough to do so, including Anna Williams who | :37:12. | :37:14. | |
campaigned so long and hard for her son Kevin who was just 15 when he | :37:15. | :37:19. | |
died at Hillsborough. In her statement, she spoke about the range | :37:20. | :37:24. | |
of possible investigations of a criminal nature, and I wonder if she | :37:25. | :37:32. | |
could just sale at the bit about the potential for criminal investigation | :37:33. | :37:36. | |
into those who reported completely full sleeve what they were fed by | :37:37. | :37:40. | |
those in authority -- completely full sleeve. Which led to cover up, | :37:41. | :37:47. | |
smear and the downright lies told about firms, the people of Liverpool | :37:48. | :37:54. | |
at that time, that have added hugely to the 27 year wait for today's | :37:55. | :38:06. | |
verdict. I take the point the gentleman makes about the public | :38:07. | :38:11. | |
impression. I did, in fact, indicate the offences that are included in | :38:12. | :38:15. | |
the work that is being done. The investigation is a matter for the | :38:16. | :38:20. | |
two bodies that have been set up to undertake the two elements of the | :38:21. | :38:26. | |
investigation for Operation Resolve and the IPCC. As I have said in | :38:27. | :38:31. | |
response to a number of honourable members, decisions about any | :38:32. | :38:35. | |
prosecutions will be entirely independently taken by the CPS. As a | :38:36. | :38:43. | |
football fan I will never forget the 15th of April, 1989, hearing the | :38:44. | :38:47. | |
unimaginable news that 96 people had gone to watch a football match, men, | :38:48. | :38:51. | |
women, children, and never would come home. Let me just say that | :38:52. | :38:59. | |
there were many, many football fans around this country who never | :39:00. | :39:04. | |
believed the official verdict and always believed what Liverpool fans | :39:05. | :39:07. | |
were saying. Let meal so pay tribute to all those involved in the | :39:08. | :39:11. | |
campaign, they are not only heroes of the proud city of Liverpool, for | :39:12. | :39:16. | |
the extraordinary fight for truth and justice which will go down in | :39:17. | :39:20. | |
the history of our democracy, they are British heroes. As well as | :39:21. | :39:26. | |
dealing with the cover-up, can the Home Secretary give the House a | :39:27. | :39:30. | |
clear assurance that the appalling ways families of the victims were | :39:31. | :39:34. | |
treated in the aftermath of the disaster will never happen again. | :39:35. | :39:39. | |
With police officers sitting eating food in the gymnasium as the bodies | :39:40. | :39:43. | |
were lying there, families told they could not hug their loved ones in | :39:44. | :39:48. | |
body bags because they work the property of the coroner, and worst | :39:49. | :39:54. | |
of all, the initial coroner said, forced alcohol testing on all of | :39:55. | :40:00. | |
these victims of this unlawful disaster, including children, that | :40:01. | :40:06. | |
is a disgrace and we want to know that that will never ever happened | :40:07. | :40:13. | |
to a single victim again. The honourable gentleman is absolutely | :40:14. | :40:19. | |
right to refer to those, what was done and how families were treated, | :40:20. | :40:23. | |
and I think how appalling it must have been not only to learn that one | :40:24. | :40:27. | |
of your loved ones had died in these appalling circumstances, to be | :40:28. | :40:31. | |
unable to touch them, but also probably not to know properly be | :40:32. | :40:34. | |
details of when they died and how they died, the cause of death. | :40:35. | :40:40. | |
People have had to live with that for far too long. I hope that it is | :40:41. | :40:46. | |
exactly the sorts of issues which come from the experiences of the | :40:47. | :40:50. | |
families that can be brought to light by the work that I have asked | :40:51. | :40:58. | |
Bishop James Dennis to do. I want to thank the Home Secretary for the | :40:59. | :41:01. | |
work she has done but I want to raise with her the point I raced in | :41:02. | :41:04. | |
2012 when she made the same statement that the rest of the | :41:05. | :41:07. | |
country fell for the story. The rest of the country did not fall for the | :41:08. | :41:20. | |
story, I think I want to pick up on the point that was raised by my | :41:21. | :41:29. | |
honourable friend, seven years after that, South Yorkshire Police paid | :41:30. | :41:36. | |
compensation to silence 39 minus and not one of those police was even | :41:37. | :41:42. | |
dissident of what they had done. They used public money to bury bad | :41:43. | :41:51. | |
news on that day. The point raised by the honourable member for Leeds | :41:52. | :41:56. | |
that they actually tested young people, children who were dead, | :41:57. | :42:07. | |
shows how irresponsible they were. I would like to ask the Home Secretary | :42:08. | :42:11. | |
to do what the Prime Minister did not do today. What specific action | :42:12. | :42:15. | |
would be taken to expose everybody at every level in this country, | :42:16. | :42:22. | |
elected official, appointed officials of her previous | :42:23. | :42:25. | |
government, mine government, at any level who played any role in this | :42:26. | :42:30. | |
cover-up either by omission or commission, because they are as | :42:31. | :42:34. | |
guilty as making people suffer for 27 years as many people who went to | :42:35. | :42:42. | |
their graves vilified he would have been vindicated if this had been | :42:43. | :42:46. | |
sorted out at least a quarter of a century ago. There are other people | :42:47. | :42:52. | |
who should be called to account, even if they didn't commit and not | :42:53. | :42:57. | |
hacks, they have done things that delayed justice and they should be | :42:58. | :43:03. | |
made to account for that. Importantly, I think the report of | :43:04. | :43:08. | |
the independent panel that came out showed the truth of what happened | :43:09. | :43:15. | |
and obviously, in that work, required a number of organisations | :43:16. | :43:18. | |
which had previously been silent on what happened to be prepared to come | :43:19. | :43:23. | |
forward and give their evidence to that panel. In terms of the criminal | :43:24. | :43:28. | |
investigations and potential prosecutions, I have answered that | :43:29. | :43:34. | |
point. I would hope, I would say this, there has been a collective | :43:35. | :43:37. | |
recognition across this House today from all sides of this House that, | :43:38. | :43:43. | |
yes, there were verdicts on what happened on that day in 1989, but | :43:44. | :43:49. | |
subsequently, it was the procedures and processes that should have | :43:50. | :43:54. | |
sought out and found the truth that bailed and we do have to ask | :43:55. | :43:57. | |
ourselves the question as to how that happened and what we can do to | :43:58. | :44:05. | |
make sure it does not happen again. Yesterday's verdict was a historic | :44:06. | :44:10. | |
one and I would like to thank the Secretary of State for her statement | :44:11. | :44:15. | |
and for the embassies that she -- emphasis that the fans were not to | :44:16. | :44:22. | |
blame. I was a teacher in 1989 and remember that day well. I remember | :44:23. | :44:26. | |
how the city was affected at the time and in the years to follow. 27 | :44:27. | :44:30. | |
years as a long time and the families of the 96 who lost their | :44:31. | :44:35. | |
lives at Hillsborough have had to fight for the truth. It takes a | :44:36. | :44:38. | |
special kind of courage to fight for 27 years and I would like to pay | :44:39. | :44:45. | |
Burma on the courage of the families. | :44:46. | :44:48. | |
I hope the verdict will be some comfort and I hope the 96 will not | :44:49. | :44:56. | |
been forgotten. The honourable lady is right, they will not be forgotten | :44:57. | :45:01. | |
and she has rights to pay tribute to the families who have kept alive the | :45:02. | :45:05. | |
hope of truth and justice and I hope that they will take some comfort | :45:06. | :45:12. | |
from the verdicts yesterday. Can I pay tribute to the Home Secretary | :45:13. | :45:17. | |
and the right Honourable member the lead is not just for the power of | :45:18. | :45:24. | |
poignancy of their words today but also for the decisive and responsive | :45:25. | :45:27. | |
character that they have both respectively shown in relation to | :45:28. | :45:35. | |
this whole matter. I salute not only my fellow members in this House to | :45:36. | :45:44. | |
represent the families of the Hillsborough tragedy, they have made | :45:45. | :45:56. | |
that journey from victimhood through vilification to vindication, that | :45:57. | :45:59. | |
torturous journey to justice that Mayan constituents faced, and the | :46:00. | :46:08. | |
honourable member for league brought the Hillsborough families over to | :46:09. | :46:14. | |
Derry to meet the bloody Sunday families and I know the bloody | :46:15. | :46:19. | |
Sunday families would give the biggest hugs they could possibly | :46:20. | :46:22. | |
give to the Hillsborough families today. I think what we need to | :46:23. | :46:29. | |
learn, other lessons, rather than just comparing what happened in this | :46:30. | :46:33. | |
case and other cases, the points that were made about what families | :46:34. | :46:37. | |
still had to go through even after what the panel report told us, the | :46:38. | :46:45. | |
fact they had to show carmine chamber as they listen to callous | :46:46. | :46:48. | |
cynicism as they listen to death of their loved ones. We also need to | :46:49. | :46:57. | |
addressed once and for all this insensitivity and arrogance of | :46:58. | :47:04. | |
power, and system defensiveness that the Home Secretary has rightly | :47:05. | :47:09. | |
identified, that the system tells us to move on, there is nothing more to | :47:10. | :47:15. | |
know. I note that is exactly what the system was telling the Right | :47:16. | :47:22. | |
Honourable member fully. In relation to questions about possible charges | :47:23. | :47:27. | |
that arise, one issue that does occur to me arising from the bloody | :47:28. | :47:32. | |
Sunday experience as well, could we get clarity soon on whether or not | :47:33. | :47:36. | |
the law officers in this situation are replying the same rubric that | :47:37. | :47:41. | |
they applied to the Bloody Sunday situation which is to say that | :47:42. | :47:47. | |
questions of charges in the line of perjury cannot be considered until | :47:48. | :47:53. | |
the issues of any other possible charges relating to the events of | :47:54. | :47:58. | |
the day have been. Because that is a rubric, deeply troubling to Bloody | :47:59. | :48:04. | |
Sunday families. I say to the honourable gentleman that I think | :48:05. | :48:08. | |
that is a point I will take away and look into and I thank him for the | :48:09. | :48:16. | |
remarks he made about the importance of a justice system. We rightly are | :48:17. | :48:21. | |
proud of our system of justice in this country that sometimes it has | :48:22. | :48:25. | |
failed to get to the truth. Sadly, we have seen that on board this | :48:26. | :48:29. | |
occasion in relation to Hillsborough, once again it is the | :48:30. | :48:34. | |
families who have been prepared to fight over 27 years, that have got | :48:35. | :48:38. | |
to the truth from the independent panel 's report and now to the | :48:39. | :48:43. | |
verdicts vary clear verdicts that have vindicated what they have said | :48:44. | :48:47. | |
about fans and their loved ones all along. As a teenager I followed my | :48:48. | :48:57. | |
team and that stand on many occasions so this was a victory for | :48:58. | :49:03. | |
all of football today. The crime was exacerbated by the cover-up, so why | :49:04. | :49:07. | |
would like to ask the Home Secretary, apart from going to hell, | :49:08. | :49:12. | |
what does she see as the consequences for those who ball. To | :49:13. | :49:23. | |
many? --. Testimony. Criminal charges should be brought, and that | :49:24. | :49:31. | |
is a matter that will be the decision of the Crown Prosecution | :49:32. | :49:33. | |
Service after seeing the results of the investigations. Can I add my | :49:34. | :49:41. | |
congratulations and commendations to the Home Secretary for the statement | :49:42. | :49:51. | |
and conduct so far. Can I recall the words of my right honourable friend | :49:52. | :49:55. | |
who praised and Williams from Chester who sadly did not live to | :49:56. | :50:01. | |
see this day. I can assure the Home Secretary and the House that she | :50:02. | :50:04. | |
will be in the forefront of the mind of many of my constituents in | :50:05. | :50:13. | |
Chester. Hillsborough was a tragedy got it may have remained so that | :50:14. | :50:19. | |
instead it became a scandal. Does the Home Secretary share my concern | :50:20. | :50:23. | |
that the toxic legacy of Hillsborough is that there is a | :50:24. | :50:28. | |
generation not just on Merseyside but perhaps more widely in the North | :50:29. | :50:36. | |
West and across the country that have absolutely zero confidence in | :50:37. | :50:38. | |
elements of the state and elements of the justice system and frankly, | :50:39. | :50:44. | |
it is up to all of us in this House to rebuild that confidence based on | :50:45. | :50:49. | |
the judgment yesterday. I absolutely agree with the honourable gentleman | :50:50. | :50:52. | |
that we have a role to play in this House to ensure, as I have just said | :50:53. | :50:57. | |
in response to a previous question. We have always felt huge confidence | :50:58. | :51:03. | |
and pride in the justice system we have in the country, but we need to | :51:04. | :51:06. | |
make sure it operates properly and provides justice for people. | :51:07. | :51:13. | |
Can I press the Home Secretary to recognise the importance of the | :51:14. | :51:20. | |
European Convention on Human Rights in ensuring justice in this case? | :51:21. | :51:24. | |
The reference group which she says is being reconstituted it | :51:25. | :51:27. | |
specifically to protect the Hillsborough families' writes. This | :51:28. | :51:33. | |
system does not always work as it should, and victims' families rely | :51:34. | :51:39. | |
on article two, the right to life, to ensure that the deaths that take | :51:40. | :51:44. | |
place when people are in the care of the state of properly investigated. | :51:45. | :51:49. | |
Will she think carefully before pursuing her desire stated this week | :51:50. | :51:52. | |
for the UK to withdraw from the convention? I say to the honourable | :51:53. | :51:57. | |
gentleman that human rights weren't invented when the convention was | :51:58. | :52:02. | |
drafted, but in relation to the convention, my right honourable | :52:03. | :52:05. | |
friend the tourney general responded to an urgent question yesterday and | :52:06. | :52:09. | |
responded well to many questions that he was axed by many members of | :52:10. | :52:15. | |
this house. What I would say to the honourable gentleman is that the | :52:16. | :52:21. | |
whole question of how death that happen where there is some | :52:22. | :52:25. | |
involvement of some element of the state is one of the concerns that | :52:26. | :52:29. | |
I've had and one of the reasons why I've set up an enquiry looking, for | :52:30. | :52:34. | |
example, into death in custody, people held by police custody. | :52:35. | :52:40. | |
Because I think those examples that we see of whether or not the system | :52:41. | :52:43. | |
is actually getting to the truth in the way that it should do, and it's | :52:44. | :52:47. | |
right that we should look into that and investigated. This statement has | :52:48. | :52:55. | |
been one of those moments where I've thought is very proud to be a member | :52:56. | :52:58. | |
of Parliament, and I'd like to commend the Home Secretary for her | :52:59. | :53:05. | |
role. I don't think we mention Liverpool football club, who have | :53:06. | :53:08. | |
never told the fans that it was time to move on, but have always taken | :53:09. | :53:13. | |
ownership of the terrible, terrible tragedy. This was allowed to happen | :53:14. | :53:18. | |
because in the eyes of the establishment, football fans were | :53:19. | :53:22. | |
less than human. As soon as the police and the establishment see | :53:23. | :53:28. | |
groups of people not as individuals but as less than human, then we | :53:29. | :53:32. | |
enter into very dangerous their consensus. Before then, the miners | :53:33. | :53:37. | |
were less than human. We look today at how we treat disabled people, | :53:38. | :53:41. | |
asylum seekers or the victims of child sex abuse and wonder if we | :53:42. | :53:45. | |
also think they are less than human. That is a lesson for all of us to | :53:46. | :53:51. | |
consider. When this tragedy unfolded, the first instinct of | :53:52. | :53:54. | |
South Yorkshire Police was to protect their institution, to | :53:55. | :53:58. | |
protect their reputation and to think nothing of the people who | :53:59. | :54:02. | |
died, their families, because they consider these people to be less | :54:03. | :54:08. | |
than human. That instinct that they had instantly in April 1989 appears | :54:09. | :54:12. | |
to be just as strong and 27 years later by the way that they have | :54:13. | :54:15. | |
conducted themselves during this latest enquiry. In commending | :54:16. | :54:21. | |
everything that the Home Secretary has done, can I ask her to consider | :54:22. | :54:26. | |
whether she believes that people of South Yorkshire should have | :54:27. | :54:28. | |
confidence in the currently the ship of South Yorkshire Police, and | :54:29. | :54:34. | |
whether she has confidence in the Chief Constable of South Yorkshire | :54:35. | :54:39. | |
Police. -- current leadership. Whether she might take this moment | :54:40. | :54:44. | |
to come to that dispatch box and asked the Chief Constable of South | :54:45. | :54:47. | |
Yorkshire Police to consider his position, not just for the families | :54:48. | :54:51. | |
but for all the people who rely on that police force? What I would say | :54:52. | :54:56. | |
is the honourable gentleman has talked about the leadership of South | :54:57. | :54:59. | |
Yorkshire Police. As I indicated earlier, people will be voting for | :55:00. | :55:04. | |
the policing crime commission a position later next week given the | :55:05. | :55:10. | |
democratic accountability on this. I responded earlier to questions about | :55:11. | :55:13. | |
the words that South Yorkshire Police have put out and I will say | :55:14. | :55:24. | |
this again. I think it behaved South Yorkshire Police to recognise the | :55:25. | :55:26. | |
import of the verdicts at work brought out yesterday. And I hope | :55:27. | :55:34. | |
that we will not see attempts to try and somehow suggest that those | :55:35. | :55:39. | |
verdicts were not clear or in any way wrong. That jury sat through 296 | :55:40. | :55:50. | |
days of evidence, and they were clear about the role of South | :55:51. | :55:57. | |
Yorkshire Police officers. Let me thank the Home Secretary, the Shadow | :55:58. | :56:00. | |
Home Secretary and all colleagues for what they've said, and for the | :56:01. | :56:05. | |
manner in which the exchanges on this statement have been conducted. | :56:06. | :56:11. | |
Point of order. Thank you. Can I seek your advice on how I can | :56:12. | :56:21. | |
express my deep sorrow for something the Prime Minister referred to | :56:22. | :56:24. | |
earlier. As you know, if a government minister makes a mistake, | :56:25. | :56:28. | |
they can, The Record. I hope you would allow me to say that I fully | :56:29. | :56:33. | |
acknowledge that I have made a mistake and I wholeheartedly | :56:34. | :56:36. | |
apologise to this house for the words are used before I became a | :56:37. | :56:40. | |
member. I accept and understand that the words are used caused upset and | :56:41. | :56:44. | |
hurt to the Jewish community, and I deeply regret that. Anti-Semitism is | :56:45. | :56:51. | |
racism. As an MP, I will do everything in my power to build | :56:52. | :56:56. | |
relations between Muslims, Jews and people of different faiths, and | :56:57. | :57:01. | |
non-. I'm grateful and very thankful for the support and advice I have | :57:02. | :57:05. | |
received from many Jewish friends and colleagues. Advice I intend to | :57:06. | :57:11. | |
act upon. I truly regret what I did, and I hope, I sincerely hope, that | :57:12. | :57:15. | |
this house will accept my profound apology. The honourable lady has | :57:16. | :57:21. | |
found an opportunity to apologise. I thank her for what she has had and | :57:22. | :57:25. | |
it will have been noted by the House, I think that's all I should | :57:26. | :57:33. | |
say on this occasion. Point of order, Mr Alex Ammons. I commend the | :57:34. | :57:40. | |
honourable lady for the words she has just spoken. On a wider point, | :57:41. | :57:45. | |
would it be possible for us to develop an opportunity for the Prime | :57:46. | :57:50. | |
Minister to rapidly collect any misleading impressions he | :57:51. | :57:54. | |
inadvertently gives at Prime Minister's Question Time. For | :57:55. | :57:56. | |
example, I know the Prime Minister would be incredibly anxious today. | :57:57. | :58:07. | |
To acknowledge that 45% of the total orders of five injured and ?40 | :58:08. | :58:10. | |
million were placed with Scottish companies regarding the fourth | :58:11. | :58:14. | |
crossing dog I know the pro minister would want to release the misleading | :58:15. | :58:18. | |
impression by acknowledging that steal from his -- but Steele was at | :58:19. | :58:26. | |
either end of the bridge. He would want to acknowledge that the reason | :58:27. | :58:30. | |
there was no Scottish bidder for the main subcontract was the closure of | :58:31. | :58:36. | |
a Scottish steel mill by the previous Tory government in the | :58:37. | :58:40. | |
1990s, removing our capacity to supply such deal. I know that | :58:41. | :58:45. | |
prevailing such an opportunity would swallow up the entirety of this | :58:46. | :58:49. | |
house, given the many mistakes that this Prime Minister makes. But given | :58:50. | :58:54. | |
the clarity of the titular example, perhaps you could consider my new | :58:55. | :58:58. | |
innovative prime ministerial correction procedure? I am very | :58:59. | :59:05. | |
grateful for the point of order. It has been commented upon many a time | :59:06. | :59:11. | |
and often in recent years that I have sometimes judged it necessary | :59:12. | :59:19. | |
and desirable, somewhat, to extend for ministers questions, if I have | :59:20. | :59:22. | |
thought that there has been excessive noise. -- Prime Minister's | :59:23. | :59:28. | |
Questions. I have done that because I wanted backbench members to have | :59:29. | :59:32. | |
that opportunity. However, there are limits and even I would not seek to | :59:33. | :59:39. | |
extend question Time to more than two and a half hours. | :59:40. | :59:43. | |
Notwithstanding the assiduous advocacy of the honourable gentleman | :59:44. | :59:50. | |
and his enthusiasm for my doing so. Point of order. I am seeking your | :59:51. | :59:58. | |
help in perhaps finding a mechanism whereby this house might be able to | :59:59. | :00:04. | |
force a binding vote on the Government following the new law | :00:05. | :00:08. | |
amendment made to the immigration bill in the House of Lords. | :00:09. | :00:12. | |
These vulnerable, unaccompanied children require help now and it | :00:13. | :00:15. | |
would seem as though this house is not likely to consider the | :00:16. | :00:20. | |
immigration bill for a further two weeks, resume the blue to avoid | :00:21. | :00:23. | |
further embarrassment to the Government. Finally, -- to avoid | :00:24. | :00:32. | |
embarrassment. -- presumably. I would like to enable the fry | :00:33. | :00:37. | |
minister to retract his comment that other European countries are able to | :00:38. | :00:39. | |
cope with this country because they have asked them to participate in a | :00:40. | :00:46. | |
relocation scheme. Vulnerable children have been identified as one | :00:47. | :00:49. | |
of the most concerning issues in relation to the refugee crisis. | :00:50. | :00:58. | |
Thank you for the point of order. He is, in a sense, performing a double | :00:59. | :01:01. | |
act today with the right honourable gentleman two seats to his left. | :01:02. | :01:07. | |
What I would say to the honourable gentleman, who is experienced in | :01:08. | :01:10. | |
this house having previously said as its deputy leader, is twofold. | :01:11. | :01:15. | |
First, as he knows the scheduling of business is in the hands of the | :01:16. | :01:22. | |
Government. Notably, in respect of government business. Although his | :01:23. | :01:26. | |
expectation, as things stand, as to when that matter will next be | :01:27. | :01:30. | |
treated by the House of Lords may well be correct, it has not been | :01:31. | :01:36. | |
announced. Secondly, it will, in all probability, the announced at | :01:37. | :01:42. | |
business questions tomorrow by the Leader of the House. If it is not, | :01:43. | :01:49. | |
there will be an opportunity for that matter to be probed. I know I | :01:50. | :01:53. | |
can say with complete confidence and with no fear of contradiction that | :01:54. | :01:58. | |
just as the honourable gentleman is in his case now, so he will be at | :01:59. | :02:03. | |
the appropriate time tomorrow. I think there is more than a passing | :02:04. | :02:07. | |
possibility that he will catch my eye. I'm not sure there is, but I | :02:08. | :02:15. | |
always like hearing the honourable gentleman, the member for West | :02:16. | :02:20. | |
Worthing. Especially as he has such a beaming countenance today. Let's | :02:21. | :02:26. | |
hear the attempted further. We heard the suggestion that the Prime | :02:27. | :02:29. | |
Minister said something was wrong. We heard from the honourable member | :02:30. | :02:33. | |
for the Scottish National Party that the bid between the ends, which I | :02:34. | :02:37. | |
would call the bridge, was made with steel which wasn't produced in this | :02:38. | :02:43. | |
country. Whatever else may be said, that may be a point of enormous | :02:44. | :02:47. | |
interest. It is manifestly not a point of order. We will leave it | :02:48. | :02:53. | |
there for now. If there are no further points of order? Perhaps we | :02:54. | :02:59. | |
can now come to the ten minute rule motion. Whatever the honourable | :03:00. | :03:06. | |
member may have two said tomorrow, I assume he intends to address today. | :03:07. | :03:12. | |
Mr Speaker, I beg to move that lead be given to bring in a dull to amend | :03:13. | :03:16. | |
the landlord and tenant reform Bill to make provision about the | :03:17. | :03:22. | |
renovation of landlords in private rented accommodation to extend | :03:23. | :03:25. | |
tenants' rights, particularly in relation to the sale of occupied | :03:26. | :03:29. | |
property, to cap letting agencies and fees, to require the Mayor of | :03:30. | :03:34. | |
London to establish a mandatory licensing fee in respect of private | :03:35. | :03:39. | |
landlords in Greater London. It is no exaggeration to say that we have | :03:40. | :03:43. | |
a national emergency in housing. It is unacceptable that in 2016 | :03:44. | :03:47. | |
millions of people still suffer daily from poor housing and live in | :03:48. | :03:53. | |
fear and desperation without a secure, affordable place to call | :03:54. | :03:57. | |
home. This fear is Terrington amenities apart and risks further | :03:58. | :04:01. | |
dividing our country between a very well off minority and the rest of | :04:02. | :04:06. | |
us. -- tearing key amenities apart. We have soaring costs where the | :04:07. | :04:10. | |
average two-bedroom property in London is now out of reach of 80% of | :04:11. | :04:16. | |
people. A renting sector where people on low and middle incomes are | :04:17. | :04:19. | |
spending around two fifths of their salaries on housing. Something | :04:20. | :04:23. | |
confirmed by the Evening Standard in a report yesterday. And often suffer | :04:24. | :04:28. | |
at the hands of rogue landlords. This problem isn't going to go away | :04:29. | :04:33. | |
soon. Over the less decade, London's private renting sector has doubled | :04:34. | :04:38. | |
in size to become the second-largest housing tenure in the capital. There | :04:39. | :04:42. | |
are now almost 1 million private rented or produced in London, | :04:43. | :04:46. | |
housing over 2 million people, around one third of the population. | :04:47. | :04:50. | |
For many of these people, living in a private renting sector works well | :04:51. | :04:53. | |
with short-term agreement offering them the flexibility they need to | :04:54. | :04:57. | |
move homes quickly for new jobs opportunities. Many of their private | :04:58. | :05:01. | |
landlords are responsible, carrying out repairs in a timely manner and | :05:02. | :05:05. | |
returning deposits properly. For many others, the sector has become a | :05:06. | :05:09. | |
tenure of last resort, rather than the halving destination of choice. | :05:10. | :05:16. | |
There have been huge changes in the demographics of the private renting | :05:17. | :05:19. | |
sector in recent years with an increasing number of families, | :05:20. | :05:22. | |
low-income and vulnerable housing living in the sector. But conditions | :05:23. | :05:26. | |
remained poor. A third of homes failed to meet decent homes standard | :05:27. | :05:33. | |
with over 60% of renters having experienced damp, mould, leaking | :05:34. | :05:37. | |
roofs or Windows, electrical hazards, animal infestation or | :05:38. | :05:40. | |
Catholics, according to a recent survey by the housing charity | :05:41. | :05:50. | |
Shelter. -- animal infestation. One woman broke down in tears last week | :05:51. | :05:54. | |
after describing the conditions. She and her young son could no longer | :05:55. | :05:58. | |
face waking up to live or dead rodents. The landlord is trying to | :05:59. | :06:03. | |
help, but the quality of the housing stock makes it very difficult to | :06:04. | :06:08. | |
stop rodents getting in. A few weeks before, a young woman came to see me | :06:09. | :06:11. | |
with her mother. They have repairs are standing on their rented | :06:12. | :06:14. | |
property, which the landlord is refusing to sort out whilst putting | :06:15. | :06:19. | |
pressure on them to leave the flat. These types of cases I'm sure every | :06:20. | :06:23. | |
member of Parliament will be all too familiar with. This is why I'm | :06:24. | :06:28. | |
supporting the measures put forward by Caroline Pidgeon's London Liberal | :06:29. | :06:32. | |
Democrat team to overhaul the London sector. We believe they will -- was | :06:33. | :06:41. | |
the exact number of rogue landlords operating remains unknown, there is | :06:42. | :06:45. | |
a growing sense that the problem is getting worse as demand for housing | :06:46. | :06:49. | |
and profits that can be made from renting out any accommodation in | :06:50. | :06:54. | |
whatever condition continues to increase, with one in 20 renters are | :06:55. | :06:58. | |
saying they have rented from a rogue landlords in the past 12 months. | :06:59. | :07:07. | |
The enforcement standards in the private rented sector by local | :07:08. | :07:14. | |
authorities is highly variable with recent cuts to local authority | :07:15. | :07:18. | |
budgets further diminishing resort is available to councils to tackle | :07:19. | :07:22. | |
those landlords that provide poor or unsafe living conditions. The | :07:23. | :07:32. | |
resulting patchwork of enforcement has left many people in precarious | :07:33. | :07:36. | |
conditions. Tougher enforcement which the residential landlords | :07:37. | :07:39. | |
Association which represents small Private landlords would welcome. And | :07:40. | :07:48. | |
fourth Jeanette Lee, -- unfortunately, it is very difficult | :07:49. | :07:53. | |
to prosecute landlords. On average, London borough is inspected one in | :07:54. | :08:02. | |
every 55 homes at the private rented sector. There is a significant | :08:03. | :08:05. | |
variation in the level of enforcement activity with some | :08:06. | :08:11. | |
councils inspecting one in 14 properties, and others in one in | :08:12. | :08:16. | |
500. The private rented sector may have meant the needs of tenants in | :08:17. | :08:24. | |
years gone by, but the needs of tenants have changed magically in | :08:25. | :08:25. | |
recent years. The plans I have about to refer to | :08:26. | :08:43. | |
would reform the private sector. All landlords in London should be | :08:44. | :08:48. | |
registered, this would make it easier to identify the scale and | :08:49. | :08:52. | |
trends in the Private rented sector and to ensure landlords can be | :08:53. | :08:57. | |
traced easily. To crack down on rogue landlords with a licensee | :08:58. | :09:00. | |
scheme, the government should introduce a licensing scheme for all | :09:01. | :09:03. | |
private landlords in London with the aim of professionalising the sector, | :09:04. | :09:07. | |
improving conditions and removing rogue landlords from housing market. | :09:08. | :09:11. | |
I accept this proposal will not be welcome by all landlords but some, | :09:12. | :09:22. | |
except the limited role. Scrap unfair letting agent fees for | :09:23. | :09:26. | |
renters. Moving from one of rented home to another can be very | :09:27. | :09:33. | |
expensive. I am told that agents tried to poach landlords from each | :09:34. | :09:38. | |
other to secure the fees that are triggered to secure for themselves | :09:39. | :09:46. | |
and they dangle the prospect of higher rents in front of the | :09:47. | :09:53. | |
would-be landlord. In Sutton, a quick check suggests fees of 400 to | :09:54. | :09:59. | |
?500 when signing up a new tenant and when that is added to the | :10:00. | :10:02. | |
six-week deposit which currently would be approximately ?1500 for a | :10:03. | :10:10. | |
two bedroom flats, that would be a total of ?2000 that the tenant would | :10:11. | :10:15. | |
need to find up front. Give renters extra rights when landlords sell up. | :10:16. | :10:22. | |
They should be given first refusal to buy the home they are renting. | :10:23. | :10:28. | |
Finally, give councils powers to manage properties and offer longer | :10:29. | :10:34. | |
tenancies. This would allow councils to develop, manage Private homes | :10:35. | :10:41. | |
outside of the revenue account to improve quality of homes in the | :10:42. | :10:45. | |
sector. Also call on the government to work with Private landlords, | :10:46. | :10:49. | |
mortgage companies and freeholders to enable private landlords to offer | :10:50. | :10:54. | |
longer tenancies because often it is mortgage companies or freeholders | :10:55. | :10:57. | |
who are standing in the way of those longer tenancies. This is about | :10:58. | :11:01. | |
issues that will make a real difference. I am not claiming these | :11:02. | :11:07. | |
measures are the silver bullet that will solve London's housing problems | :11:08. | :11:12. | |
because the fundamental issue is a lack of supply, particularly of | :11:13. | :11:15. | |
affordable homes, an issue that is no closer to a solution given that | :11:16. | :11:21. | |
only 5000 affordable homes were built last year, the lowest figure | :11:22. | :11:25. | |
since the mayor was first elected in 2008. We do believe these proposals | :11:26. | :11:30. | |
will improve the lot of private renters, some of you suffer -- some | :11:31. | :11:40. | |
of whom suffer in unsuitable conditions. This has got to stop. I | :11:41. | :11:51. | |
urge the House to support this bill. As many as are of the opinion, say | :11:52. | :11:57. | |
"aye". To the contrary, "no". I think the ayes have it. The ayes | :11:58. | :12:04. | |
have it. Who will prepare and bringing the bill? Norman Lamb, and | :12:05. | :12:11. | |
Greg Mulholland, Stephen Pugh and myself. | :12:12. | :12:35. | |
Landlord and tenant reform Bill. Second reading, what day? Friday | :12:36. | :12:50. | |
13th of May. Friday the 13th of May. We now come to the programme motion | :12:51. | :12:54. | |
on the Trade Union Bill. Minister to move formally. The questionnaires as | :12:55. | :13:02. | |
on the order paper, As many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the | :13:03. | :13:09. | |
contrary, "no". The ayes have it. The clerk will now proceed to read | :13:10. | :13:14. | |
the orders of the day. Consideration of Lords amendments. We begin with a | :13:15. | :13:21. | |
Lords amendment to with which we consider government amendments a and | :13:22. | :13:28. | |
B to Lords amendment to. The government motion to disagree to | :13:29. | :13:33. | |
Lords amendments 17 and government amendments a to C two words restored | :13:34. | :13:38. | |
to the bill. I call the minister to make government amendment a to Lords | :13:39. | :13:46. | |
amendment two. The measures in this bill aimed to modernise the | :13:47. | :13:49. | |
relationship between trade unions and their members and strike a | :13:50. | :13:52. | |
fairer balance between the rights of trade unions and the rights of | :13:53. | :13:57. | |
people who rely on public services. By making sure strikes only happen | :13:58. | :14:03. | |
where unions have secured a clear, positive and recent democratic | :14:04. | :14:07. | |
mandate. Consideration in the House of Lords has made important changes | :14:08. | :14:12. | |
to this bill, the great majority of which the government believes | :14:13. | :14:16. | |
improve the bill. But the first group today deals with those issues | :14:17. | :14:20. | |
where the government did not support the changes proposed. This first | :14:21. | :14:24. | |
group is about electronic balloting and facility time. We have reflected | :14:25. | :14:29. | |
carefully in the light of the strong views expressed both in debates in | :14:30. | :14:32. | |
this House and in the other place and I would take issue -- each issue | :14:33. | :14:39. | |
in turn. As I have said before, the government has no principled | :14:40. | :14:42. | |
objection to electronic balloting and I have said before and I'm happy | :14:43. | :14:47. | |
to say again that I think it is likely to be common in 20 years' | :14:48. | :14:51. | |
time. We are seeking a degree of sensible caution. I am happy to give | :14:52. | :14:59. | |
way. He will remember our many conversations during the committee | :15:00. | :15:05. | |
stage of the bill. Given he says he accepts it may come in, we see the | :15:06. | :15:08. | |
Lords amendment down before us on this issue and moving towards a | :15:09. | :15:13. | |
pilot scheme, it remains the fact that electronic ballot is used by | :15:14. | :15:18. | |
many organisations. Why not just bring it about now? If the | :15:19. | :15:25. | |
honourable gentleman with whom I enjoyed greatly debating many of the | :15:26. | :15:30. | |
detailed clauses of this bill over a longer period when he occupied a | :15:31. | :15:34. | |
different post on the opposition front bench, if he gives me a bit of | :15:35. | :15:40. | |
time, I will explain that I am not quite yet ready to Russian to the | :15:41. | :15:46. | |
Nirvana that he paints for us. -- to rush in. We are asking for a degree | :15:47. | :15:51. | |
of sensible caution to ensure that important votes are safe and secure. | :15:52. | :15:55. | |
I am not asking honourable members today to reject the clause added to | :15:56. | :16:00. | |
the bill in the House of Lords on electron it balloting. But I am | :16:01. | :16:06. | |
asking for a small but important change to ensure we proceed | :16:07. | :16:10. | |
prudently on the basis of evidence as we take this important step. He | :16:11. | :16:18. | |
will no doubt has been the evidence from the electoral reform Society | :16:19. | :16:24. | |
whose say that the instances of fraud in Elektra on it balloting is | :16:25. | :16:29. | |
no different to the instances of fraud in postal balloting. Given | :16:30. | :16:35. | |
that, what is his objection? He, too, will have to be patient because | :16:36. | :16:39. | |
I will come on and talk about evidence from around the world on | :16:40. | :16:43. | |
some of the problems that other systems have encountered when trying | :16:44. | :16:48. | |
to embrace electronic balloting to quickly and without adequate | :16:49. | :16:51. | |
preparation. I appreciate from previous rates in this House that | :16:52. | :16:55. | |
there are differences in opinion about whether electronic balloting | :16:56. | :17:00. | |
is sufficiently safe and secure. The noble Lord Kerslake said he | :17:01. | :17:05. | |
personally has convinced that the case has been made and we have heard | :17:06. | :17:08. | |
rather members that they are also convinced. Lord Kerslake was good | :17:09. | :17:13. | |
enough to say he appreciates others are not and I would remind the House | :17:14. | :17:17. | |
that the open rights group gave evidence to the speakers commission | :17:18. | :17:22. | |
and neatly summed up concerns about the security of online voting. I | :17:23. | :17:30. | |
quote, voting is a uniquely difficult question. The system must | :17:31. | :17:37. | |
already know if you have already voted and allow for audits and | :17:38. | :17:41. | |
recounts yet it must always preserve your anonymity and privity. That was | :17:42. | :17:45. | |
the view of the open rights group and that is the view that we must | :17:46. | :17:52. | |
investigate more carefully. Lord Kerslake explained this is why his | :17:53. | :17:55. | |
clause added to the bill in the other place requires that a review | :17:56. | :17:59. | |
is commissioned and there have already been many reviews looking | :18:00. | :18:03. | |
into this such as that mentioned by the honourable member by | :18:04. | :18:11. | |
organisations like the electoral reform service. These have indeed | :18:12. | :18:19. | |
made encouraging comments about the potential of a move to electronic | :18:20. | :18:24. | |
ballots, but none have been able to provide assurance on managing the | :18:25. | :18:29. | |
risks. I will just get a little further and will be happy to give | :18:30. | :18:33. | |
way again. While there is still this doubt, I can see merit in exploring | :18:34. | :18:38. | |
the issues further. The important difference is that this review will | :18:39. | :18:43. | |
specifically be in the context of electronic balloting for industrial | :18:44. | :18:48. | |
action. In accepting that should be this review, we accept the spirit of | :18:49. | :18:52. | |
the clause on electronic balloting. We accept that to leave the entirety | :18:53. | :18:57. | |
of the amendment made by the Mogul boards. -- noble Lords. I understand | :18:58. | :19:10. | |
the position he is setting out. I am struggling to understand the logic | :19:11. | :19:13. | |
because if he is saying electronic balloting is neither secure nor | :19:14. | :19:20. | |
anonymous, is he inferring that when Conservative Party members vote for | :19:21. | :19:25. | |
a particular candidate online in an internal Tory party election, it is | :19:26. | :19:32. | |
neither secure nor anonymous? With the greatest respect, I would point | :19:33. | :19:37. | |
out to the honourable gentleman that that is an internal election for an | :19:38. | :19:41. | |
independent organisation. Here we are talking about static tree | :19:42. | :19:49. | |
elections. They reported because the public has a deep interest in their | :19:50. | :19:54. | |
resultant it is quite right we hold them to our highest standard. I am | :19:55. | :19:58. | |
happy to give way to the honourable member. He is sounding almost guilty | :19:59. | :20:06. | |
of double standards on this issue and whilst he says he has accepted | :20:07. | :20:12. | |
the majority of the noble Lords's amendment, he is neglecting to adopt | :20:13. | :20:16. | |
any of those components that would require any substantial action by | :20:17. | :20:19. | |
the government. What could possibly be wrong and what reasonable | :20:20. | :20:25. | |
objection could he have two piloting an electron it balloting scheme? I | :20:26. | :20:29. | |
think he realises he doesn't have a reasonable argument against it. If | :20:30. | :20:33. | |
the honourable members on the other side would give me a minute, they | :20:34. | :20:36. | |
may hear my argument and then they could decide whether it is | :20:37. | :20:42. | |
reasonable on art. I am now going to satisfy them with my argument and I | :20:43. | :20:46. | |
will be happy to give way if they wish to comment. There is one | :20:47. | :20:51. | |
element, and only one, in the amendment moved by the House of | :20:52. | :20:55. | |
Lords with which we cannot agree and that is the strategy for roll out. | :20:56. | :21:02. | |
This is because it produces is -- pre-judges the outcome of the review | :21:03. | :21:07. | |
and commits the Secretary of State to press ahead with the roll-out | :21:08. | :21:11. | |
irrespective of the review's findings. The House will be | :21:12. | :21:15. | |
interested to know, they may not welcome it, that there are lots of | :21:16. | :21:22. | |
examples where electronic balloting has been tried but found not to work | :21:23. | :21:26. | |
and even where it has had to be rolled back. The speaker's | :21:27. | :21:32. | |
commission on Digital democracy identified 14 countries that have | :21:33. | :21:37. | |
tried Internet voting for statutory elections. This includes five | :21:38. | :21:43. | |
countries including the UK but also Finland, USA, the Netherlands and | :21:44. | :21:48. | |
Spain which either piloted or fully adopted electronic voting and then | :21:49. | :21:50. | |
decided to discontinue its use. What the minister says on that | :21:51. | :22:01. | |
point, the last Labour government did pilot Bertrand voting and a | :22:02. | :22:04. | |
report afterwards indicated that there was no evidence at all in | :22:05. | :22:09. | |
terms of fraud or other types of things. -- electronic voting. I was | :22:10. | :22:17. | |
a scandal around postal voting. There was no evidence in that report | :22:18. | :22:22. | |
that e-voting was any more inefficient than any other type of | :22:23. | :22:26. | |
voting. If the honourable jasmine is correct and there is no problem, the | :22:27. | :22:31. | |
review will conclude so and it will report to Parliament. I will not | :22:32. | :22:36. | |
give way again. I will not give way again, I'm going to carry on with my | :22:37. | :22:40. | |
argument. The review will conclude that and will report accordingly to | :22:41. | :22:45. | |
the House. We already have the power to permit electronic balloting in | :22:46. | :22:50. | |
section 54 of the employment relations act 2004. But we have not | :22:51. | :22:55. | |
exercised it because we have not been convinced and nor has any | :22:56. | :22:59. | |
previous government, including a Labour government that held office | :23:00. | :23:04. | |
for 13 years, has not been convinced that the system would ensure | :23:05. | :23:07. | |
privacy, opportunity and minimise the risk of fraud and malpractice. | :23:08. | :23:12. | |
I'm going to carry on a second further, but I will be happy to give | :23:13. | :23:16. | |
way. There has been much positive progress in the way that technology | :23:17. | :23:20. | |
has helped to address these issues, reflected in the reports but I have | :23:21. | :23:24. | |
cited. We have been clear that we will be willing to use that power | :23:25. | :23:29. | |
when we are convinced that the concerns are adequately addressed. | :23:30. | :23:32. | |
The legislation is framed in a way that requires us first to be | :23:33. | :23:35. | |
satisfied on these matters, and for good reason. That is why inside of a | :23:36. | :23:40. | |
strategy for roll out, I am today seeking agreements to which | :23:41. | :23:43. | |
statutory the choir and for the Government to publish its response | :23:44. | :23:48. | |
to the review which will be laid before Parliament. -- statutory | :23:49. | :23:53. | |
requirements. Questions can only ask and it can be raised in the House in | :23:54. | :24:00. | |
the usual way. The minister before the Trade Union Bill was heard | :24:01. | :24:03. | |
before the Lords wrote to ministerial colleagues, can the | :24:04. | :24:15. | |
Minister confirm that should the electronic balloting be successful | :24:16. | :24:20. | |
but he will use that mechanism to put a balloting in place? -- | :24:21. | :24:27. | |
electricity letting. I can assure you that my relations with the | :24:28. | :24:31. | |
Socialist party and newspaper probably rather less good than the | :24:32. | :24:35. | |
honourable gentleman's. It was not through my good offices that they | :24:36. | :24:41. | |
got hold of any document, not that I accept that they did get hold of any | :24:42. | :24:46. | |
document. He asked a reasonable question and I think I have made | :24:47. | :24:50. | |
very clear that the Government has no objection in principle and that | :24:51. | :24:55. | |
we do expect statutory elections to move towards online voting. But we | :24:56. | :24:59. | |
will do so in the case of trade union strike ballots when we are | :25:00. | :25:05. | |
convinced that they are safe and that is why we want to have a | :25:06. | :25:11. | |
review, that is why the review will be an independent review. That is | :25:12. | :25:14. | |
why we were caught to Parliament and I'm not going to prejudge the | :25:15. | :25:18. | |
outcome of the review because if I did, frankly, it would be slightly | :25:19. | :25:21. | |
pointless to have the review in the first place. I will give way. He's | :25:22. | :25:30. | |
said before that it was OK to do it for the election for the Tory mayor | :25:31. | :25:32. | |
because they were independent organisers. Did the Tory party carry | :25:33. | :25:42. | |
a review into how secure the systems were before they set up the | :25:43. | :25:46. | |
discussions around having electricity rating for the Tory now? | :25:47. | :25:54. | |
-- electronic voting. You must recognise that these are statutory | :25:55. | :25:59. | |
elections. Internal elections for candidates, in any party, are not | :26:00. | :26:03. | |
statutory elections. They might be subject to problems, but that is a | :26:04. | :26:08. | |
problem for the organisation, not the public. The public have a right | :26:09. | :26:13. | |
to expect a higher standard in the consideration of statutory | :26:14. | :26:15. | |
elections. I'm not going to give way, he has had a go. I will give | :26:16. | :26:20. | |
way to the ladies who have not, but then I will make some progress. They | :26:21. | :26:25. | |
are all welcome to speak to this debate in their own right and it | :26:26. | :26:28. | |
would be correct to make some progress. I think that the Minister | :26:29. | :26:37. | |
that like I thank the Minister. It has been said it would be pointless | :26:38. | :26:41. | |
to have a review in the various stages. I agree, it is pointless | :26:42. | :26:47. | |
because the technology already exists. It has already been said | :26:48. | :26:52. | |
that the Conservative Party has used that as a previous programmer, I can | :26:53. | :26:55. | |
tell you it's already exist and is already secure. Not only has it been | :26:56. | :27:01. | |
used in various businesses or independent organisations, but it | :27:02. | :27:04. | |
has been used in X factor and various shows on TV. I can tell the | :27:05. | :27:09. | |
Minister, you don't need to do a report, you just need to move onto | :27:10. | :27:14. | |
the next stage. The honourable lady is a fan of X factor and so are many | :27:15. | :27:19. | |
of us. But she will recognise that important though it is, it isn't a | :27:20. | :27:24. | |
statutory election. Well I'm happy to acknowledge her expertise, I hope | :27:25. | :27:28. | |
that she will to acknowledge the evidence given by the open rights | :27:29. | :27:34. | |
group she can investigate, it isn't a Tory front organisation, it is an | :27:35. | :27:38. | |
independent and specialist organisation which gave evidence | :27:39. | :27:41. | |
only last year and said that there were specific issues to overcome. | :27:42. | :27:46. | |
She will also have to explain and will have a chance to explain why it | :27:47. | :27:51. | |
is that several countries in the world have experimented with online | :27:52. | :27:54. | |
voting and then reversed it, because they found it to be unsafe. This | :27:55. | :28:01. | |
review will allow us. Macro oh, I did say I would give way. | :28:02. | :28:07. | |
Could the Minister be specific and say how electronic voting is less | :28:08. | :28:15. | |
secure than postal voting? No, I would be specific because what we | :28:16. | :28:21. | |
are going to do is set up an independent review of people who | :28:22. | :28:25. | |
have real expertise in this issue. She will be welcome to give evidence | :28:26. | :28:29. | |
to that review. They will produce a report which they will label for | :28:30. | :28:34. | |
Parliament and she can interrogate that review and the Government's | :28:35. | :28:40. | |
response. I'm happy to give way. On the point of the other opposition | :28:41. | :28:46. | |
bench regarding the Conservative Party online voting, I found it | :28:47. | :28:50. | |
impossible to get onto it so I was unable to vote in the male election. | :28:51. | :28:56. | |
Did my honourable friend have the same issue that I did? I did not | :28:57. | :29:01. | |
have that issue, but I think that does show that there can be issues | :29:02. | :29:06. | |
with online voting, as indeed we know that there can be issues with | :29:07. | :29:11. | |
postal voting. While it is not a matter of enormous public interest | :29:12. | :29:15. | |
because this was not a statutory election, it's never the less is | :29:16. | :29:17. | |
something which we would be very worried about if a statutory | :29:18. | :29:26. | |
election like a union strike ballot were subject to the same level of | :29:27. | :29:30. | |
problems. One more time, then I will get on. Are you seriously suggesting | :29:31. | :29:36. | |
that whoever the Conservative candidate is for London Mayor is not | :29:37. | :29:43. | |
a matter of public interest? I am happy to explain again that it is | :29:44. | :29:49. | |
not a statutory election. But this review will allow us to consider | :29:50. | :29:53. | |
again the case for e-voting and ensure that we have assessed the | :29:54. | :29:56. | |
latest technology coming into view. I believe that taking together the | :29:57. | :30:03. | |
review and the Government's response will enable the Secretary of State | :30:04. | :30:07. | |
to create a properly informed and transparent decision about the risks | :30:08. | :30:10. | |
of curing safe and secure electronic lighting and whether such a system | :30:11. | :30:18. | |
should be rolled out. You have invited us to contribute to the | :30:19. | :30:21. | |
review and I wonder will you accept electronic submissions, or do we | :30:22. | :30:24. | |
have to get our work will and parchment out? She makes a very good | :30:25. | :30:30. | |
point and my honourable friend suggests we should be inscribed on | :30:31. | :30:36. | |
vellum. She will know that my honourable friend, the Minister for | :30:37. | :30:40. | |
the Cabinet Office, has a particular enthusiasm for this means of | :30:41. | :30:43. | |
communication, but I prefer the more modern methods. Perhaps a submission | :30:44. | :30:46. | |
by what that might be appropriate. The Government does not agree with | :30:47. | :31:02. | |
the Lord's in that amendment. As my right honourable friend knows, I am | :31:03. | :31:06. | |
in favour of e-voting and I think the route he is taking is the | :31:07. | :31:10. | |
correct one. But there is one real fear out there and that is what this | :31:11. | :31:14. | |
approach is designed simply to delay the onset of online voting. Can he | :31:15. | :31:19. | |
tell the House that when the minister receives viewport, he or | :31:20. | :31:22. | |
she will deal with it appropriate dispatch? -- receives the report. | :31:23. | :31:30. | |
Thank you for the contribution on this and on other important matters. | :31:31. | :31:34. | |
I believe he has made a significant contribution to helping to improve | :31:35. | :31:38. | |
this ill. On the particular question he asked, the amendment that we are | :31:39. | :31:45. | |
proposing suggests that this review should be commissioned within six | :31:46. | :31:50. | |
months, and then reported to Parliament. Of course, as I have | :31:51. | :31:54. | |
made clear, we have no objection in principle. If the review suggests | :31:55. | :32:01. | |
that it is safe to embrace e-voting, we will be able to proceed. He will | :32:02. | :32:04. | |
have noted that the amendments physically suggest that we should be | :32:05. | :32:10. | |
able to introduce pilots. -- specifically suggest. One of the | :32:11. | :32:14. | |
issues with the existing provisions is it might not be the case that you | :32:15. | :32:18. | |
could do a pilot without going for a full application. Such pilots might | :32:19. | :32:25. | |
be an appropriate phase after the review has completed. If I may now | :32:26. | :32:30. | |
return facility time and the facility time cap. The Government | :32:31. | :32:35. | |
does not agree with the Lord's in that amendment and in consequence I | :32:36. | :32:39. | |
move amendment 17, which brings back the reserve cap, but with safeguards | :32:40. | :32:43. | |
which respond to the concerns that were expressed here in our debates | :32:44. | :32:48. | |
but also which led to the deletion of the clause in the other place, | :32:49. | :32:53. | |
and with the subject of quite frenzied inquisition in both houses. | :32:54. | :32:58. | |
Together with the publication requirements, it is my view that | :32:59. | :33:01. | |
they reserve power to cap facility time to a reasonable level delivers | :33:02. | :33:05. | |
our manifesto commitments to tighten the walls around taxpayer funded | :33:06. | :33:10. | |
facility time for union representatives. -- tighten the | :33:11. | :33:14. | |
rules. I shall reiterate what I said when this house was considering the | :33:15. | :33:18. | |
bill before. We are not seeking to ban facility time. This has never | :33:19. | :33:24. | |
been our intention. Our strong preference is the transparency alone | :33:25. | :33:26. | |
should be enough to change practices in the public sector with employers | :33:27. | :33:32. | |
voluntarily reducing their costs where they are found to be spending | :33:33. | :33:37. | |
more on facility time than is reasonable. I'm happy to give way. | :33:38. | :33:44. | |
You have been most generous. In the aforementioned memo which I referred | :33:45. | :33:48. | |
to earlier, there was an indication in that memo that they would be | :33:49. | :33:54. | |
concessions and discussions with the devolved administration in relation | :33:55. | :33:58. | |
to facility time. Can he confirm if consultations are taking place, or | :33:59. | :34:04. | |
is it his intention to dictate to the devolved administration what | :34:05. | :34:08. | |
facility time should be for their own workforce? I'm sure the | :34:09. | :34:14. | |
honourable member will understand that I never comment on articles in | :34:15. | :34:18. | |
the Socialist worker, but he will understand that we have regular | :34:19. | :34:21. | |
conversations with ministers in the devolved administrations. All of the | :34:22. | :34:25. | |
matters addressed in this bill are reserved matters. It's not a matter | :34:26. | :34:29. | |
of dictating, it is simply of this government fulfilling its duty to | :34:30. | :34:34. | |
legislate on the matters for which we have exclusive responsibility. I | :34:35. | :34:39. | |
have to give way. Specifically on that point about devolved powers, is | :34:40. | :34:45. | |
it not the case that in that letter, the minister himself has received | :34:46. | :34:49. | |
legal advice that they have a very weak case about enforcing those | :34:50. | :34:54. | |
powers on the Welsh government? The honourable lady, who made an | :34:55. | :34:59. | |
admirable and, for me, rather challenging contribution to our | :35:00. | :35:03. | |
deliberations in committee, knows that we do not comment on legal | :35:04. | :35:10. | |
advice. Only if publication and the proper monitoring and recording that | :35:11. | :35:13. | |
it necessitates does not achieve the aim of bringing excessive spending | :35:14. | :35:19. | |
on facility time back down to a reasonable level, only then will it | :35:20. | :35:23. | |
be necessary to consider the imposition of a cap. A reserve power | :35:24. | :35:29. | |
is very much a power of last resort. I will carry on and explain what we | :35:30. | :35:33. | |
are now proposing, because it is a little different than what we | :35:34. | :35:37. | |
previously proposed. I will give way before I conclude. A reserve power | :35:38. | :35:44. | |
is very much a power of last resort. While amendment 17 brings back the | :35:45. | :35:48. | |
reserve power, we are not simply replicating the provision that this | :35:49. | :35:52. | |
house considered before and that was deleted from the bill in the other | :35:53. | :35:56. | |
place. The amendment before the House today incorporates a number of | :35:57. | :36:00. | |
important safeguards which will trigger how and when the reserve | :36:01. | :36:03. | |
power to cap the time would be exercise. We have listened to the | :36:04. | :36:08. | |
concerns of members for this house and the other place and have sought | :36:09. | :36:14. | |
to address those concerns. The published data in this bill will | :36:15. | :36:18. | |
provide valuable information about the levels of spending across the | :36:19. | :36:22. | |
public actor and informed decisions about what should be regarded as a | :36:23. | :36:27. | |
reasonable level of spend on facility time, taking into account | :36:28. | :36:31. | |
the needs of the relevant sector as well as the particular circumstances | :36:32. | :36:33. | |
of individual employers within the sector. | :36:34. | :36:38. | |
I will just finished this bit and then I will be happy to give way. It | :36:39. | :36:46. | |
is our intention and, of course, that the exercise of reserve power | :36:47. | :36:51. | |
will not even be considered before there are at least two years of data | :36:52. | :36:55. | |
from the body is subject to the publication requirement. Following | :36:56. | :36:58. | |
the publication of the second year's data, should a particular employer's | :36:59. | :37:03. | |
facilities I be a cause for concern, having regard to all relevant | :37:04. | :37:06. | |
factors, the minister will send and publish a letter to the employer | :37:07. | :37:10. | |
drawing attention to the concerns. The Arroyo will have the opportunity | :37:11. | :37:17. | |
to set out the reasons, -- employer, will then have a further year from | :37:18. | :37:25. | |
the date to make progress in relation to facility time levels. | :37:26. | :37:29. | |
Nothing will be done until a third year's data has been published. Only | :37:30. | :37:33. | |
then will be Minister be at liberty to exercise the reserve power and | :37:34. | :37:38. | |
make regulations to cap facility time for those employers. I will be | :37:39. | :37:44. | |
happy to give way. As somebody who enjoyed facility time, spent a lot | :37:45. | :37:48. | |
of that time trying to manage through huge reorganisations and | :37:49. | :37:53. | |
redundancies a lot of the responsibility of his former | :37:54. | :37:56. | |
government, can he explain what he means by terms like excessive and | :37:57. | :38:00. | |
reasonable, because by example, we have just gone through the last four | :38:01. | :38:09. | |
years, we lost 48% of our budget with lots of redundancies, and we | :38:10. | :38:17. | |
have been engaged in a night trying to retrain people. The honourable | :38:18. | :38:25. | |
gentleman is right. It can vary on the organisation and on the | :38:26. | :38:29. | |
situation of that organisation what is reasonable, and that is why we | :38:30. | :38:33. | |
want to collect two years of data before we establish what seems to be | :38:34. | :38:38. | |
a reasonable level are looking at comparable organisations. I will | :38:39. | :38:41. | |
come onto the fact that we are also going to be creating the of removing | :38:42. | :38:47. | |
the cap from an organisation if it has a particular situation such as | :38:48. | :38:50. | |
the one he describes which would justify a much higher level of | :38:51. | :38:54. | |
spending on different kinds of facility time. I give way. Most | :38:55. | :39:00. | |
grateful to my honourable friend. I think what my will friend is try to | :39:01. | :39:05. | |
make explicit is across the trade union movement there are shop | :39:06. | :39:07. | |
steward to do an excellent job day in day out and whereas some | :39:08. | :39:12. | |
situations where the facility time is taken advantage of. One thinks of | :39:13. | :39:17. | |
the example of the Grangemouth situation. Could my honourable | :39:18. | :39:25. | |
friend make it clear, at no time is he saying that all shop stewards are | :39:26. | :39:28. | |
swinging the lead and there is actually a lot of valuable work | :39:29. | :39:33. | |
going on. I am happy to confirm and applaud what my honourable friend | :39:34. | :39:39. | |
said. In truth, I would be as worried if an organisation was | :39:40. | :39:43. | |
declaring no spending on facility time as if they were declaring | :39:44. | :39:46. | |
excessive spending, because helping people with training, all with | :39:47. | :39:53. | |
health and safety issues is an absolutely vital role in a well-run | :39:54. | :40:00. | |
organisation. But he will recognise, and I know on members across the | :40:01. | :40:04. | |
House will also, there have been organisations, we have had direct | :40:05. | :40:08. | |
dealings of this within the civil service, there were agencies and | :40:09. | :40:12. | |
departments that were allowing an abuse of the system and we want to | :40:13. | :40:16. | |
restore confidence in the system by making it clear that we we need | :40:17. | :40:21. | |
transparency and then if there is still excessive behaviour, then we | :40:22. | :40:28. | |
will introduce a cap. I give way. I am grateful to the Minister for | :40:29. | :40:32. | |
giving way. In order to try and help the House understand why you feel | :40:33. | :40:37. | |
there is the need for this cap, I wonder, could you tell the House in | :40:38. | :40:43. | |
what percentage of public sector employers presently do you feel | :40:44. | :40:47. | |
there is an excess of granted of facility time and this cap would be | :40:48. | :40:51. | |
beneficial in your view of stopping that? I am not at all sure if you do | :40:52. | :40:57. | |
believe there is a need for a cap, but I think the honourable gentleman | :40:58. | :41:03. | |
was referring to me. The honourable gentleman will get used to the fact | :41:04. | :41:09. | |
that if you say, if one says EU, it means me. If one says the honourable | :41:10. | :41:15. | |
gentleman, it means the Minister. Minister. I thought for your sake I | :41:16. | :41:22. | |
should clarify that. And he asks a reasonable question. I hope you will | :41:23. | :41:27. | |
understand that until we have applied the transparency clause, we | :41:28. | :41:31. | |
do not know what is the level of spending that is currently happening | :41:32. | :41:34. | |
across the broader public sector and so therefore, we cannot judge which | :41:35. | :41:38. | |
organisations are currently spending in excess. What we do not is that | :41:39. | :41:45. | |
when we introduced a similar provision in the civil service, we | :41:46. | :41:48. | |
did find that some organisations were acting perfectly responsibly | :41:49. | :41:54. | |
and others were allowing an abuse of the system and hence we introduced a | :41:55. | :41:58. | |
cap in the civil service. It has saved the taxpayer money and not in | :41:59. | :42:02. | |
anyway undermined the proper fulfilment of responsibilities by | :42:03. | :42:06. | |
trade union representatives. I am now going to make a bit more... I | :42:07. | :42:11. | |
have such a soft spot for the honourable gentleman. I appreciate | :42:12. | :42:18. | |
his generosity. Does he appreciate given some of the rhetoric we have | :42:19. | :42:22. | |
seen from his ministerial colleagues and others that people may have a | :42:23. | :42:25. | |
reasonable suspicion that the government might seek to use these | :42:26. | :42:29. | |
powers in a very pernicious way going up the particular groups of | :42:30. | :42:33. | |
people they happen not to be happy about the practices of. Does he not | :42:34. | :42:38. | |
accept that is a reasonable suspicion to have? I do not, really, | :42:39. | :42:42. | |
because after all, I am the Minister and I will be in charge of this | :42:43. | :42:45. | |
until the Prime Minister decides otherwise and I think he has had | :42:46. | :42:52. | |
enough time to judged whether I am sincere. In the proposals we are | :42:53. | :42:57. | |
putting forward today there have to be three year's data before we can | :42:58. | :43:03. | |
introduce a cap, we have two, responding in part to what is | :43:04. | :43:07. | |
honourable friend said, we have to allow the organisation where there | :43:08. | :43:11. | |
is some concern, we have to allow them the opportunity to explain why | :43:12. | :43:14. | |
the level of spending is appropriate. There are now, partly | :43:15. | :43:19. | |
through the good offices of the honourable members in this House and | :43:20. | :43:22. | |
the other House, greater safeguards to ensure there can be no abuse. I | :43:23. | :43:29. | |
am a bit confused to know what the cost will be of this. In terms of | :43:30. | :43:35. | |
Minister of civil servants sitting down, sifting through mountains of | :43:36. | :43:39. | |
data from every council, every body that are covered by it to determine | :43:40. | :43:44. | |
whether or not something is being abused when from his own lips he has | :43:45. | :43:47. | |
just admitted he does not know if there was any abuse. If there is not | :43:48. | :43:52. | |
a problem, why are we bringing in this very expensive and I think | :43:53. | :43:59. | |
totally possible -- impossible system to regulate. I would put him | :44:00. | :44:03. | |
to the fact that there are estimates, while there has not been, | :44:04. | :44:08. | |
because there has not been the transparency clause is applied, | :44:09. | :44:11. | |
estimates that the public sector as a whole spends on average 0.14% of | :44:12. | :44:18. | |
its total pay bill on facility time. The civil service spends 0.07%, half | :44:19. | :44:24. | |
of that, and the private sector spends 0.04% and I can promise him | :44:25. | :44:29. | |
that if he multiplies up the pay bill of the public sector by that | :44:30. | :44:32. | |
percentage, he will arrive at a very large figure indeed and a great deal | :44:33. | :44:36. | |
more than the cost of implementing these clauses. I will make progress. | :44:37. | :44:43. | |
I will be generous again, that I am going to try and make some progress. | :44:44. | :44:48. | |
In addition, as I indicated to the honourable member, the cap may be | :44:49. | :44:58. | |
these applied for as long as necessary for individual employers, | :44:59. | :45:01. | |
a temporary lifting of the cup or one or more specific employers and | :45:02. | :45:04. | |
we propose to use it in circumstances where the employer and | :45:05. | :45:09. | |
ministers consider it necessary. We envisage that should a particular | :45:10. | :45:12. | |
employer experience they need for more facility time, perhaps during a | :45:13. | :45:17. | |
period of change of following a particular incident, ministers can | :45:18. | :45:22. | |
allow this to respond to the circumstance. The reserve power this | :45:23. | :45:28. | |
amendment would deliver is considerably improved and I would | :45:29. | :45:31. | |
urge the House to support it. I commend these amendments to the | :45:32. | :45:38. | |
House. The question is the government amendment a Lords | :45:39. | :45:45. | |
amendment to be made. I want to make it clear right at the outset that we | :45:46. | :45:49. | |
remain opposed to this bill and despite some of the changes that it | :45:50. | :45:56. | |
has undergone in the other place, it remains a dreadful mean-spirited | :45:57. | :45:58. | |
partisan piece of legislation. Having got that off my chest, I want | :45:59. | :46:04. | |
to recognise that members in the other players have made a valiant | :46:05. | :46:08. | |
attempt to make a silk purse out of this particular malformed thing. | :46:09. | :46:14. | |
After today it may hand up being a slightly less ugly thing but not the | :46:15. | :46:28. | |
less will remain. Many of the changes peers made to the bill | :46:29. | :46:32. | |
welcome if we consider the crudeness of the bill in its original form. | :46:33. | :46:38. | |
Turning to the first group of Lords amendments we are considering in | :46:39. | :46:41. | |
this group and the government's response, Lords amendment to to | :46:42. | :46:47. | |
clause four of the bill was passed in 320 one votes to 281 requiring | :46:48. | :46:53. | |
the government to commission a review of electronic voting in | :46:54. | :46:58. | |
industrial action ballots within six months of Royal assent and after the | :46:59. | :47:01. | |
review, amendment to would require the government to publish a strategy | :47:02. | :47:07. | |
for rolling out electronic voting. The government's amendment Awe are | :47:08. | :47:13. | |
considering would revise the amendment to state ministers would | :47:14. | :47:16. | |
only be required to publish a response to the review but not take | :47:17. | :47:20. | |
further action to introduce e-balloting. The government has | :47:21. | :47:26. | |
consistently resistant e-balloting on the grounds they had concerns | :47:27. | :47:30. | |
about the safety of this. Despite the fact that the Conservative Party | :47:31. | :47:37. | |
use electronic ballots for the selection of the London mayoral | :47:38. | :47:41. | |
candidate. Although I suppose they may be regretting that given the | :47:42. | :47:44. | |
poor performance of the candidate they selected using that particular | :47:45. | :47:48. | |
method and perhaps that explains the government's concern. It is clear | :47:49. | :47:52. | |
that the government's real objection to e-balloting and workplace ballot | :47:53. | :47:58. | |
in which we argue for successfully in the south and the other place has | :47:59. | :48:03. | |
been that they do not want high turnouts in these ballots, because | :48:04. | :48:07. | |
that would mean there is new threshold barriers would be more | :48:08. | :48:11. | |
easily reached if more people were more easily able to vote. Not only | :48:12. | :48:15. | |
will all ballots for industrial action require more than 50% turnout | :48:16. | :48:22. | |
under the bill, but those working in the loosely defined important public | :48:23. | :48:26. | |
service group will face an additional hurdle of needing a 40% | :48:27. | :48:31. | |
yes vote from all those eligible to vote. And that means these | :48:32. | :48:37. | |
thresholds place higher requirements on the industrial action ballot of | :48:38. | :48:40. | |
this kind than on any other democratic process within the United | :48:41. | :48:45. | |
Kingdom. For example, 50% turnout threshold was not reached for the | :48:46. | :48:50. | |
last London mayoral election almost local government and devolved | :48:51. | :48:56. | |
elections. The government's tabled amendment Alpha, revising the Lords | :48:57. | :48:58. | |
amendment we are considering a day it is agreed that ministers should | :48:59. | :49:04. | |
be required to commission ended independent review on the use of | :49:05. | :49:08. | |
e-balloting within six months of Royal assent. It is agreed that it | :49:09. | :49:12. | |
will be possible to run pilots as part of that review but it is | :49:13. | :49:17. | |
proposing that after the review ministers would need to publish a | :49:18. | :49:21. | |
response but not necessarily to take any further action and there would | :49:22. | :49:26. | |
be no requirement to publish a strategy for rolling out electronic | :49:27. | :49:31. | |
voting. I will give way. I am grateful to my honourable friend. Is | :49:32. | :49:36. | |
there not a slight concern that this is a delaying tactic by the | :49:37. | :49:40. | |
government that does not in tend to introduce these measures and given | :49:41. | :49:44. | |
that in 2016 many people are quite used to banking online, registering | :49:45. | :49:49. | |
to vote online, submitting their tax returns online, do not these | :49:50. | :49:55. | |
questions about these questions and anonymity for by the wayside? I take | :49:56. | :50:02. | |
the minister his words at when he says this is not his intention but | :50:03. | :50:07. | |
to coin a phrase, here's a here today, gone today Minister and I say | :50:08. | :50:12. | |
that from experience as a former minister myself. Somebody else | :50:13. | :50:15. | |
eventually may well in the future occupy his place and may well not | :50:16. | :50:20. | |
have the good intentions that he has outlined to the House today on the | :50:21. | :50:24. | |
record. We have do legislate for that possibility rather than assume | :50:25. | :50:28. | |
that somebody with goodwill will occupy that seat in the future. It | :50:29. | :50:38. | |
is proposing after the review it would not have to publish a | :50:39. | :50:42. | |
strategy. B be clear about this, we do not think the government's | :50:43. | :50:47. | |
amendment is necessary and we accept, and I do except it has moved | :50:48. | :50:53. | |
a long way in accepting the review, pilots and requirements before | :50:54. | :50:55. | |
Parliament and accepting the need to consult experts and get advice and | :50:56. | :50:59. | |
recommendations and the need to commission a report within six | :51:00. | :51:03. | |
months of the passing of the act. These are significant changes and go | :51:04. | :51:08. | |
part of the way to achieving what we have argued for right from the start | :51:09. | :51:11. | |
of the bill in the Commons and indeed, they achieved most of what | :51:12. | :51:15. | |
was agreed by peers in the other place on a cross-party basis with | :51:16. | :51:19. | |
crosspatch support down in the Lords. I give way. | :51:20. | :51:25. | |
As someone who considered that electronic balloting is probably the | :51:26. | :51:32. | |
right way to go, would he not recognise the ministers and the | :51:33. | :51:34. | |
Government 's progress in this direction, and welcome that? I | :51:35. | :51:43. | |
believe the Minister and any future Minister will ensure that the | :51:44. | :51:47. | |
evidence is looked at and provided the evidence shows electronic | :51:48. | :51:50. | |
balloting is the right way to go, we will go forward with that. | :51:51. | :51:55. | |
Obviously, I can't comment on how long the Minister will remain in | :51:56. | :52:01. | |
this particular post. We will see. But I did, I think, recognise the | :52:02. | :52:04. | |
move that the Government has made and I want to make it clear that I | :52:05. | :52:08. | |
do recognise that, although I've made it clear that we do think this | :52:09. | :52:11. | |
is an unnecessary amendment that the Government is making and that the | :52:12. | :52:15. | |
whole matter could have been dealt with in a much more straightforward | :52:16. | :52:19. | |
manner. But we are where we are having received amendments from the | :52:20. | :52:23. | |
Lords, and that's all we can discuss today. Ultimately, it seems in can | :52:24. | :52:29. | |
either ball that any minister having received a report on how e-balloting | :52:30. | :52:34. | |
could be introduced safely would then denying trade union members the | :52:35. | :52:39. | |
opportunity to participate in a ballot using modern Elektra nick to | :52:40. | :52:45. | |
medication. The only possible reason for ministers to reject an expert | :52:46. | :52:49. | |
report outlining the appropriate way to introduce modern technology and | :52:50. | :52:54. | |
to offer the opportunity for easier participation in a democratic vote | :52:55. | :52:58. | |
would be a desire to suppress turnout. -- electronic | :52:59. | :53:01. | |
communication. That would be the only possible explanation. Thank you | :53:02. | :53:06. | |
for giving way and you come right to the point. He does not have to rely | :53:07. | :53:09. | |
on the goodwill of this minister, who I'm sure the Cabinet supports. | :53:10. | :53:20. | |
The reason I asked him to say the intent of the Government on receipt | :53:21. | :53:23. | |
of the report were that if another minister were tempted to not follow | :53:24. | :53:27. | |
the explicit policy right now he and I could hold him to account in this | :53:28. | :53:33. | |
chamber. Indeed. I don't know whether the future Prime Minister | :53:34. | :53:36. | |
goes well pointing to the Cabinet or not, we will have to wait and see. | :53:37. | :53:40. | |
-- future prime ministers Mr Gove. That is why the Government's | :53:41. | :53:46. | |
amendment is unnecessary and still is likely effect of the acceptance | :53:47. | :53:50. | |
of the rest of the Lords amendment. However, I'm seeking to put on | :53:51. | :53:56. | |
record the fact that should any future Minister take another path | :53:57. | :53:59. | |
having had a clear recommendation on this report, one could only | :54:00. | :54:03. | |
interpret their intentions as being less than honourable if that were | :54:04. | :54:07. | |
the course of action but a future Minister were to take. Could you | :54:08. | :54:13. | |
advise me whether those an order for the House to spend so much time | :54:14. | :54:16. | |
talking about my career prospects because I do not feel they are | :54:17. | :54:23. | |
really helping? Is that good or bad for the House? I am happy to leave | :54:24. | :54:28. | |
him alone for the rest of the debate, apart from the issues that | :54:29. | :54:32. | |
we are discussing here today. If any minister did take that path, there | :54:33. | :54:37. | |
would be considerable anger and opposition not just from us but from | :54:38. | :54:40. | |
other parties and also in the other place who worked so hard to crack | :54:41. | :54:44. | |
this amendment on electronic balloting. In practice, the momentum | :54:45. | :54:49. | |
for e-balloting would be unstoppable if that report was published and | :54:50. | :54:53. | |
comes to those conclusions that we think it probably will. We prefer | :54:54. | :54:56. | |
the Lords amendment and we would seek this afternoon to keep it in | :54:57. | :55:02. | |
the bill. Moving to Lords amendment 17 on facility time, the other part | :55:03. | :55:05. | |
of this group and the Government's motion to disagree with the Lords | :55:06. | :55:10. | |
amendment, and the Government's proposed additions to be reinstated | :55:11. | :55:14. | |
clause 13, if in fact the House decides to reinstate that clause by | :55:15. | :55:20. | |
voting to disagree with the Lords. The laws passed amendment 17 by 248 | :55:21. | :55:28. | |
votes to 160, which removed the power for ministers to impose a cap | :55:29. | :55:32. | |
on union facilities by deleting clause 13 from the bill. The | :55:33. | :55:37. | |
Government has tabled a motion this afternoon to disagree with Lords | :55:38. | :55:42. | |
amendment 17 so that they can restore their ability to impose a | :55:43. | :55:46. | |
cap on facility is. They proposed a further amendment to a mentally | :55:47. | :55:50. | |
reinstated clause in line with assurances that they gave in the | :55:51. | :56:00. | |
Lords. And that no caps can be imposed after the first three years. | :56:01. | :56:05. | |
Before ministers could impose a cap, they would need to review the | :56:06. | :56:09. | |
published data on facilities, the cost of facilities for the relevant | :56:10. | :56:12. | |
employer, the nature of the service is run by the public authority, and | :56:13. | :56:17. | |
any particular factors relevant to the employer and relevant matters. | :56:18. | :56:22. | |
They would also need to consider the type of relevant organisation and | :56:23. | :56:24. | |
any relevant matters if the organisation was facing a major | :56:25. | :56:28. | |
restructure. If the Minister has concerns about the level of | :56:29. | :56:31. | |
facilities in a public authority under the provisions that they are | :56:32. | :56:35. | |
posing, they would be to write to the employer expressing their | :56:36. | :56:41. | |
concerns. The ministers seem to skate over this. What is this going | :56:42. | :56:49. | |
to cost the taxpayer in terms of reviewing all this information? | :56:50. | :56:51. | |
Surely if it will be done orally and effectively it will, at great cost | :56:52. | :56:57. | |
to the taxpayer. -- done orally and effectively. Given that the -- | :56:58. | :57:06. | |
thoroughly. It is ironic that what my honourable friend is exactly the | :57:07. | :57:10. | |
case. As I said earlier, we are dealing with what we've got back | :57:11. | :57:13. | |
from the laws. We would not wish this to remain in the bill at all | :57:14. | :57:17. | |
and indeed we would support the Lords amendment to remove this from | :57:18. | :57:21. | |
the bill completely. I am simply setting out to the House be | :57:22. | :57:27. | |
consequences of not doing so. The original clause 13 introduced | :57:28. | :57:30. | |
included a reserve power for government ministers to introduce | :57:31. | :57:34. | |
regulations imposing an arbitrary cap on the amount of time which | :57:35. | :57:37. | |
union rights in the public sector can spend in the workplace promoting | :57:38. | :57:43. | |
learning and training opportunities, consulting on redundancies, | :57:44. | :57:50. | |
negotiating better pay and conditions, and even representing | :57:51. | :57:52. | |
members in grievances and disciplinary hearing. We want to | :57:53. | :57:56. | |
make it clear that we agree with the Lords that the clause should have | :57:57. | :58:00. | |
been removed altogether from the bill on facility time. It is an | :58:01. | :58:04. | |
unnecessary interference in the conduct of good industrial | :58:05. | :58:08. | |
relations. The Government's professed desire to support | :58:09. | :58:18. | |
devolution, as has been pointed out. It goes against what the Government | :58:19. | :58:22. | |
has said is its professed desire to do a devolution and it has been | :58:23. | :58:25. | |
resisted, as he would know, why the devolved administrations. We | :58:26. | :58:30. | |
acknowledge, however, that significant advances have been made | :58:31. | :58:34. | |
in the Government amendment letter A. It is our position that we | :58:35. | :58:38. | |
support the Lords and we want this removed from the bill. However, | :58:39. | :58:49. | |
government amendment capital they will provide some improvement in a | :58:50. | :58:52. | |
memo in which should never have appeared in the first place. | :58:53. | :58:56. | |
I'd like to speak today on Lords amendment two. Comments I make, I | :58:57. | :59:06. | |
hope are met with a spirit with which I hope to make them. Which is | :59:07. | :59:10. | |
first of all to outline a frustration that I have when I spoke | :59:11. | :59:17. | |
on second reading about thresholds are lots within the private sector. | :59:18. | :59:22. | |
I made clear in those marks at the time that trade unions have a very | :59:23. | :59:29. | |
important part to play in the workforce, whether that be through | :59:30. | :59:32. | |
health and safety, whether it be through bullying, whether it be | :59:33. | :59:39. | |
through contractual negotiations in terms of a changing working | :59:40. | :59:43. | |
practice, funding, many of those issues. I think it is the wrong | :59:44. | :59:50. | |
thing to do to be seen to not appreciate the work that trade | :59:51. | :59:53. | |
unions do, and indeed as I've already mentioned in my intervention | :59:54. | :59:58. | |
there are many shop steward in the country who do an outstanding job. I | :59:59. | :00:02. | |
have had experience when I was a member of Unite with some excellent | :00:03. | :00:09. | |
shop stewards who worked very hard. The reason at the time of that | :00:10. | :00:15. | |
speech that I said I wasn't keen on thresholds her lots in the private | :00:16. | :00:19. | |
sector was because I wondered at the time that the threshold to go on | :00:20. | :00:25. | |
strike in the private sector is much higher than the public sector. | :00:26. | :00:30. | |
Because whatever the rights and wrongs of it may be, going on strike | :00:31. | :00:36. | |
in the public sector generally means there will always be a job to go | :00:37. | :00:40. | |
back to because it is being funded largely through government through | :00:41. | :00:44. | |
taxation. That threshold in the private sector can be guaranteed, | :00:45. | :00:50. | |
especially in smaller businesses. If workforce withdraws its labour, it | :00:51. | :00:53. | |
certainly have gone through a much higher threshold in its own mind to | :00:54. | :01:00. | |
put at risk, perhaps, the ongoing viability of the company. And | :01:01. | :01:02. | |
therefore to take strike action in those circumstances relates to a | :01:03. | :01:07. | |
couple of things. First of all, the conditions that have led to that | :01:08. | :01:12. | |
strike must be very bad indeed. Secondly, there has been a complete | :01:13. | :01:15. | |
breakdown between the shop stewards and the owners of those companies. I | :01:16. | :01:23. | |
cited at the time, and I go back to, the example of Grundig in the 1970s. | :01:24. | :01:29. | |
I will state once more that I do not associate myself with the support of | :01:30. | :01:36. | |
the then Conservative Party in the 1970s to break that strike run by | :01:37. | :01:43. | |
George Ward. Because the conditions that those people were working under | :01:44. | :01:48. | |
were indeed absolutely appalling. Strike action was taken to try and | :01:49. | :01:53. | |
improve the conditions, conditions which today would simply not be | :01:54. | :01:57. | |
acceptable. As I said back at the time, I applaud the law brought in | :01:58. | :02:04. | |
by the last Labour government to give a legal requirement to allow a | :02:05. | :02:08. | |
trade union in the workplace if that is the requirement of members in the | :02:09. | :02:14. | |
workplace. So, I hope the House understands that I feel that it is | :02:15. | :02:20. | |
with a regret that movement wasn't made on not having a threshold | :02:21. | :02:24. | |
turnout in the private sector. The flip side of that is I do believe | :02:25. | :02:29. | |
it's right to have a turnout threshold in the public sector. Yes, | :02:30. | :02:34. | |
I will give way. Is he aware that also a lot of trade unions with | :02:35. | :02:40. | |
their own rule book have thresholds in terms of ensuring that a centre | :02:41. | :02:45. | |
of those that vote after vote in better. The idea that somehow it is | :02:46. | :02:53. | |
uniform across all uniform to let unions or businesses is not the | :02:54. | :03:00. | |
case. -- all unions or businesses. I accept the comment, but it is not | :03:01. | :03:06. | |
uniform across all trade unions and within the public sector, I think | :03:07. | :03:14. | |
the right to a threshold to take action when they raise a lot of | :03:15. | :03:16. | |
employment protection in terms of having jobs to go back to is the | :03:17. | :03:21. | |
right thing. As I say, I'm eating too amendment a two Lords amendment | :03:22. | :03:28. | |
two. What I wanted to say to my honourable friend 's afternoon is | :03:29. | :03:33. | |
that recognising the regret I have over thresholds for the private | :03:34. | :03:38. | |
sector, recognising that I believe that a lecture in balloting will | :03:39. | :03:51. | |
lead to a higher turnout in strike thresholds... As long as it is | :03:52. | :03:58. | |
secure and can be seen to be genuine it is the right thing to do. As a | :03:59. | :04:03. | |
policy goes through it should be applied as quickly as possible | :04:04. | :04:09. | |
because that will enable the private sector to meet those thresholds more | :04:10. | :04:15. | |
easily than perhaps is there now. I just wanted to say that there is a | :04:16. | :04:20. | |
balance to be struck here. There is a balance between ensuring that | :04:21. | :04:25. | |
those in the public sector who caused great disruption to people | :04:26. | :04:28. | |
who work in the private actor and may not have the terms and | :04:29. | :04:31. | |
conditions of those in the public sector... Private sector -- I don't | :04:32. | :04:42. | |
have that same regard in the private actor and members can refer back to | :04:43. | :04:48. | |
my comments in the very first reading of the second reading of | :04:49. | :04:51. | |
this bill and the comments I made them to explain further. I think the | :04:52. | :04:55. | |
approach taken by the Government is the right one on an electronic | :04:56. | :04:59. | |
balloting but when it can be proven to be safe and reliable but it is | :05:00. | :05:04. | |
put in place. I do believe that there is an unintended consequence | :05:05. | :05:07. | |
of this bill but it's going to have a big reflect on union members in | :05:08. | :05:11. | |
the private sector than it will in the public. Thank you. What we've | :05:12. | :05:27. | |
seen in the last few days in the media, and I want to commend | :05:28. | :05:30. | |
government ministers for this, is the performance of somersaults of | :05:31. | :05:36. | |
Olympian proportions. Having voted down sensible amendments at | :05:37. | :05:41. | |
committee and third Reading to allow for an alternative voting in | :05:42. | :05:44. | |
industrial action ballot, many find themselves in a position so out of | :05:45. | :05:48. | |
step with the work of trade unions and how trade unions organise | :05:49. | :05:54. | |
themselves or even Thatcherites are seen as a friend of the worker in | :05:55. | :06:00. | |
comparison. -- that even. If I was a member of the Conservative Party, I | :06:01. | :06:04. | |
would be very worried about that. I'd like to welcome this line of | :06:05. | :06:07. | |
change. As we have argued previously, if e-balloting is good | :06:08. | :06:15. | |
enough for the Conservative Party's vote for London Mayor, surely it is | :06:16. | :06:18. | |
good enough elsewhere. I cannot for the life of me understand why the | :06:19. | :06:24. | |
Government are arguing against a system that the Conservative Party | :06:25. | :06:27. | |
thought was good enough for the selection of a candidate for London | :06:28. | :06:31. | |
Mayor. Listen very carefully to what the Minister's said and the reasons | :06:32. | :06:35. | |
he gave for the Conservative Party using that choice, and denying it to | :06:36. | :06:42. | |
the trade unions. Can I say to him gently that if there was a vote | :06:43. | :06:46. | |
taken now between trade unions and the current Mayor of London as to | :06:47. | :06:51. | |
who has disrupted the public's lives, I don't think the answer | :06:52. | :06:54. | |
would be quite what the Government would think. | :06:55. | :06:59. | |
We firmly believe access to electronic balloting will enhance | :07:00. | :07:06. | |
engagement and participation as today more people use electronic | :07:07. | :07:09. | |
devices every day to communicate. We believe online balloting and we | :07:10. | :07:18. | |
cannot father the reasoning given in relation to suggesting that online | :07:19. | :07:25. | |
balloting is unsafe and secure. I heard the honourable ladies think | :07:26. | :07:29. | |
she had difficulty in conducting and accessing that ballot. I was going | :07:30. | :07:34. | |
to ask a number of questions. I was going to ask if the e-mail that | :07:35. | :07:38. | |
accompanied the link to the ballot paper said that if you press this | :07:39. | :07:44. | |
link, this website may be unsafe and an secure. Or perhaps it may have | :07:45. | :07:48. | |
said that clicking this link may lead to a fraudulent act. Does it | :07:49. | :07:55. | |
mean the honour roll member, for Richmond Park, what does it mean for | :07:56. | :07:59. | |
him? Does it mean here is unsafe and an secure? Or is it the case that | :08:00. | :08:05. | |
some -- some government members are nodding their heads! Or is it the | :08:06. | :08:11. | |
case that only Conservative Party members have access to safe and | :08:12. | :08:16. | |
secure e-mails, have more privileges than you would find on a gold | :08:17. | :08:22. | |
American Express card? Because that is what the trade union movement are | :08:23. | :08:27. | |
asking. They are asking themselves, why is it one rule for them and | :08:28. | :08:31. | |
another rule for the rest of us? The other issue which I I know has been | :08:32. | :08:41. | |
raised before, is that the number of postboxes across the UK has reduced | :08:42. | :08:45. | |
by 17% in the last ten years so it is difficult for people to | :08:46. | :08:51. | |
participate in a postal ballot. Electronic balloting... I give way. | :08:52. | :08:57. | |
Would my honourable friend agree that with the increase in postal | :08:58. | :09:00. | |
charges that it will cost more to do postal balloting to? I do agree and | :09:01. | :09:08. | |
also take the view that electronic balloting is more efficient, and | :09:09. | :09:16. | |
unlike postal balloting, where the problem is the prolonged length of | :09:17. | :09:19. | |
the dispute because of the length of time it takes, electronic balloting | :09:20. | :09:23. | |
would allow greater flexibility and efficiency. We are disappointed that | :09:24. | :09:30. | |
the honourable member has said the pilots does not extend to workplace | :09:31. | :09:35. | |
balloting because that would increase tomography in the | :09:36. | :09:38. | |
workplace. The TUC have previously argued there is no evidence that | :09:39. | :09:42. | |
workers feel intimidated into betting a particular way when | :09:43. | :09:46. | |
ballots take place in the workplace as has been argued by the | :09:47. | :09:53. | |
government. There are amendment effectively means that ministers | :09:54. | :09:56. | |
would only have to publish a response to the review and therefore | :09:57. | :10:00. | |
would not be obligated to bring forward the strategy to allow | :10:01. | :10:03. | |
electronic voting. That is simply unacceptable. The Lords amendment is | :10:04. | :10:10. | |
actually a moderate one. The question before us today is whether | :10:11. | :10:13. | |
the government response is good enough or whether it weakens the | :10:14. | :10:16. | |
intent behind the Lords amendment. Having listened carefully to what | :10:17. | :10:20. | |
the Minister has said, we can only conclude that the amendment before | :10:21. | :10:24. | |
us does weaken the other place's intentions. The government are | :10:25. | :10:33. | |
proposing to revise the amendment so they do not have to take any action. | :10:34. | :10:42. | |
To do nothing, no strategy on how to proceed and therefore no actual | :10:43. | :10:45. | |
commitment to allowing electronic balloting in the future. That is | :10:46. | :10:49. | |
absurd. If the government truly are intent on modernising the law, they | :10:50. | :10:53. | |
would allow for electronic balloting and allow for secure workplace | :10:54. | :10:57. | |
balloting and it will be interesting to hear the Minister's response in | :10:58. | :11:01. | |
that regard. Electronic balloting will bond and I is our democracy and | :11:02. | :11:11. | |
inclusion. -- will modernise. Having such a clause in the bill signals | :11:12. | :11:18. | |
intent. It signals intent that the government will interfere with the | :11:19. | :11:23. | |
arrangements, basic industrial industrial relations, not just that | :11:24. | :11:26. | |
of devolved administrations that that of local authorities across the | :11:27. | :11:32. | |
UK. As Lord Kearsley put it in the other place, the government are | :11:33. | :11:37. | |
saying the cost should be proportionate to benefits however | :11:38. | :11:40. | |
this is fully secured through clause 12. There is no need for reserve | :11:41. | :11:50. | |
powers in clause 13. It has its own democratic mandate and is answerable | :11:51. | :11:54. | |
to its own electorate to the cost. Given the financial pressures, do we | :11:55. | :11:59. | |
think they are incapable of making this judgment? While we acknowledge | :12:00. | :12:03. | |
that some amendments have been made by the government possibly not good | :12:04. | :12:09. | |
enough, any attempt wide government to instruct institutions on how to | :12:10. | :12:13. | |
treat workers should be robustly resisted. | :12:14. | :12:23. | |
Representatives promote training opportunities, negotiate better pay, | :12:24. | :12:28. | |
terms and conditions by employees, amongst many of their roles and | :12:29. | :12:36. | |
responsibilities. Limiting the role of unions will have a damaging | :12:37. | :12:45. | |
impact on workers across the UK. They play an important role in | :12:46. | :12:52. | |
maintaining the democracy in the workplace. In Scotland, the SNP | :12:53. | :13:01. | |
government has taken a different approach, a modern, approach to | :13:02. | :13:08. | |
industrial relations and believe unions at the heart of being able to | :13:09. | :13:13. | |
achieve their work. The UK Government should offer trade unions | :13:14. | :13:16. | |
are social partnership approach, not launch more attacks against them. | :13:17. | :13:24. | |
The industrial relations mechanisms should be devolved at a local level. | :13:25. | :13:31. | |
It beggars belief that the UK Government feels it should dictate | :13:32. | :13:37. | |
policy in this areas. There will be no formal opportunity for the | :13:38. | :13:41. | |
Scottish Government to influence such regulations. Today, we need a | :13:42. | :13:44. | |
commitment from the UK Government that the rights of workers across | :13:45. | :13:49. | |
the UK will not be restricted by the imposition of this. Julie passage of | :13:50. | :14:07. | |
the bill, -- during the passage. It was ask... The Minister replies | :14:08. | :14:17. | |
devolved administration would maintain some control. I asked at | :14:18. | :14:23. | |
the time but it seems the UK Government seems intent on dictating | :14:24. | :14:30. | |
to devolved administrations. The Minister answered the government | :14:31. | :14:34. | |
would not change as proposals relating to facility time that the | :14:35. | :14:37. | |
current bill, however, in an infamous letter leaked by the | :14:38. | :14:44. | |
Socialist worker newspaper and published widely in other media | :14:45. | :14:48. | |
outlets, contained a number of concessions that the government | :14:49. | :14:52. | |
planned to make to the bill during its passage in the House of lords. | :14:53. | :14:58. | |
It would be helpful if the Minister could confirm today that devolved | :14:59. | :15:03. | |
administrations will maintain this controls on facility time. We on | :15:04. | :15:09. | |
these benches will continue to push to derail any attempt at the | :15:10. | :15:13. | |
government to dictate to Scotland and other devolved administrations | :15:14. | :15:16. | |
how it treats its public sector workers. I declare an interest in | :15:17. | :15:28. | |
being a member of the GMB and my wife works for a trade union as | :15:29. | :15:32. | |
well. The cry we have an ear from the Conservative benches is that | :15:33. | :15:37. | |
turnout in union ballots is not high enough. Where before us we have a | :15:38. | :15:46. | |
mechanism to at least assist that to ensure we get more people to | :15:47. | :15:50. | |
participate in terms of e-balloting. What we have before us today is, I | :15:51. | :15:56. | |
think I have seen some pretty poor excuses brought forward, but today's | :15:57. | :16:03. | |
I have to say, must get the prize for the poorest argument. Why we | :16:04. | :16:09. | |
cannot introduce e-balloting for trade union ballots. This government | :16:10. | :16:17. | |
prides itself in that it wants to be an electronic government, everything | :16:18. | :16:21. | |
from driving licence right through to the introduction of the Universal | :16:22. | :16:24. | |
Credit which you can only do on line. We heard from the Minister | :16:25. | :16:30. | |
that he was saying that somehow the government needs to be convinced | :16:31. | :16:36. | |
that this is secure. But didn't actually articulate on numerous | :16:37. | :16:39. | |
interventions on their the reasons why he thought the process of | :16:40. | :16:44. | |
e-balloting was in any way in secure. I respect his position more | :16:45. | :16:49. | |
if the government had come forward and said these are the reasons why. | :16:50. | :16:56. | |
The idea of a review is clearly the classic civil servants kick into the | :16:57. | :17:01. | |
long grass approach to the subject. I don't want to take time because | :17:02. | :17:04. | |
there are lots of members who wish to speak that I would like to draw | :17:05. | :17:07. | |
the honourable gentleman's attention to an election conducted in the | :17:08. | :17:14. | |
Philippines where interestingly, a company chaired by a former Labour | :17:15. | :17:18. | |
minister was given charge of conducting online voting for the | :17:19. | :17:24. | |
entire Philippines population. There was a hack, 70 million people's | :17:25. | :17:29. | |
identity data was stolen, there was then a report that said that every | :17:30. | :17:32. | |
registered voter's Dato was open to abuse. -- data. I know this | :17:33. | :17:40. | |
government loves things foreign but can I just say to the Minister with | :17:41. | :17:45. | |
great respect, he doesn't need to go very far to look for examples where | :17:46. | :17:52. | |
electronic voting worked. I refer to the pilot of 2004 in the north-east | :17:53. | :17:59. | |
where the electoral commission's report afterwards found no problems | :18:00. | :18:05. | |
in terms of it. He doesn't have too... If he wants to go on a | :18:06. | :18:09. | |
fact-finding trip to the Philippines, we would all welcome | :18:10. | :18:12. | |
him to go there, but he just have to look at what is happening here. He | :18:13. | :18:19. | |
also put up a very flimsy defence that it it is all right for the | :18:20. | :18:23. | |
Conservative Party, it is not all right for the trade union movement. | :18:24. | :18:28. | |
I would have respected his position if he had come back with concrete | :18:29. | :18:33. | |
reasons why he thought electric... He quits the Philippines but did he | :18:34. | :18:37. | |
actually look at the electoral commission report on electronic | :18:38. | :18:41. | |
voting in 2004? Because that stated quite clearly there was no issue | :18:42. | :18:47. | |
around fraud or any other risk to security. The fact the government | :18:48. | :18:53. | |
then got cold feet over the rather hysterical campaign against postal | :18:54. | :18:56. | |
voting is neither here nor there. I'm grateful to my noble friend and | :18:57. | :19:00. | |
is not just the electoral commission, it is also the electoral | :19:01. | :19:06. | |
reform Society who obviously are experts at e-voting. They conduct a | :19:07. | :19:11. | |
number of internal e-voting elections for the Labour Party and | :19:12. | :19:15. | |
would be quite capable of running similar elections will be trade | :19:16. | :19:19. | |
union movement to. My honourable friend makes a good point because | :19:20. | :19:22. | |
the Minister then tried to back into the corner that somehow it was so | :19:23. | :19:27. | |
important these boats that therefore you could not do them and electronic | :19:28. | :19:38. | |
way. -- these votes. Other organisations are happy with the | :19:39. | :19:41. | |
security of this method. The Minister may not think this is | :19:42. | :19:47. | |
important but said to my constituency, the person running the | :19:48. | :19:50. | |
local hospital is a pretty important decision. It is used by many | :19:51. | :19:56. | |
organisations, including private companies and charities, to consult | :19:57. | :20:02. | |
their members. Organisations like the electoral reform Society which | :20:03. | :20:07. | |
are used by many organisations to conduct ballots have not only | :20:08. | :20:16. | |
attract record of impartiality that are respected in this country and | :20:17. | :20:20. | |
internationally. I think it is pretty the better it to come back | :20:21. | :20:26. | |
and say we need the... We don't need the evidence. In terms of the other | :20:27. | :20:31. | |
witness in this, I am not convinced that they will after we've had this | :20:32. | :20:36. | |
so-called review, actually implement the proposals. It was a proposal | :20:37. | :20:40. | |
that came from trade unions, I congratulate them that have been | :20:41. | :20:46. | |
back in theirs. It is a move forward that would improve access to voting | :20:47. | :20:51. | |
for the members and improve the situation. Briefly, on the facility | :20:52. | :20:57. | |
cap. This one, I think is just remarkable. The Minister clearly | :20:58. | :21:02. | |
stated he didn't know what the abuse was. If you do not know what it is, | :21:03. | :21:07. | |
why are you trying to fix it? We all know why he has tried to fix it, | :21:08. | :21:10. | |
that is because it is the way of attacking the shady unions, but the | :21:11. | :21:13. | |
system they have come up with in terms of this cap -- attacking the | :21:14. | :21:22. | |
trade unions. He has not said how much it is better cost to sift | :21:23. | :21:25. | |
through these organisations and then go into detail for those individuals | :21:26. | :21:33. | |
to justify why they go in Arab -- need facility time. | :21:34. | :21:44. | |
We have another example of this Government saying it committed | :21:45. | :21:50. | |
devolutionary decision-making to local authorities but doing the | :21:51. | :21:55. | |
opposite when it comes to dictating to local authorities what they | :21:56. | :21:59. | |
should do. Remember they are democratically accountable and it is | :22:00. | :22:02. | |
up to be electric to decide. The other important thing he didn't | :22:03. | :22:10. | |
touch on is, it is all right talking about... There is no indication | :22:11. | :22:18. | |
given what money is saved by organisations, councils, in having | :22:19. | :22:23. | |
good industrial relations and ensuring redundancies and such are | :22:24. | :22:33. | |
done in an efficient way. I am challenging the Government over the | :22:34. | :22:38. | |
way it is handling the Lords amendment, clearly scrutinised in | :22:39. | :22:42. | |
order to make sure there is evidence behind what is said. Today's example | :22:43. | :22:46. | |
is yet another one we have Government evidence... Can I quickly | :22:47. | :22:57. | |
declare my interest. I am a Member of Unite and the GMB and was an | :22:58. | :23:05. | |
official for 17 years. On the issue of evidence would my Honourable | :23:06. | :23:08. | |
Friend agree that the evidential basis for this entire Bill is | :23:09. | :23:14. | |
nonexistent even today as the Bill is passed. Levels of industrial | :23:15. | :23:19. | |
action at at historic lows in the UK and the number of days lost to | :23:20. | :23:24. | |
strikes are down 90% since the 1980s. I'd like my Honourable Friend | :23:25. | :23:30. | |
for the points particular on the levels of intraday -- industrial | :23:31. | :23:35. | |
action at an all-time low. Industrial action occurring is in | :23:36. | :23:37. | |
the public sector where the Government, like today with junior | :23:38. | :23:42. | |
doctors, is failing to negotiate with trade unions. We have to | :23:43. | :23:47. | |
examine why we are in our situation, but the evidence does not sit on the | :23:48. | :23:53. | |
Government's side. I have overseen many industrial action ballot, paper | :23:54. | :23:58. | |
ballots and electronic ballots, and what we have seen is there is a | :23:59. | :24:02. | |
greater engagement with the electronic ballot, and there is a | :24:03. | :24:06. | |
reason for that. It is convenient but also more accurate. We know also | :24:07. | :24:11. | |
that we don't have the issue of papers. Electronic ballots are | :24:12. | :24:17. | |
clear, either yes or no, whereas it can be more ambiguous with all forms | :24:18. | :24:23. | |
of voting, we all experience that on election night, so it is very clear, | :24:24. | :24:29. | |
the intention of the person voting, in electronic ballots. I would say | :24:30. | :24:33. | |
and challenge the Minister in that when he talks about his tour of the | :24:34. | :24:38. | |
world, we are talking about ballots in the UK and evidence base in the | :24:39. | :24:42. | |
UK, and the evidence is overwhelming. I would challenge the | :24:43. | :24:48. | |
Minister and save 100% to show security of electronic balloting. | :24:49. | :24:52. | |
Other countries may not have rigour like this in their processes so I | :24:53. | :24:56. | |
think it is inappropriate to bring them into the equation. I think it | :24:57. | :24:59. | |
was very telling when the Minister was unable to say why it was less | :25:00. | :25:06. | |
safe using electronic balloting than postal balloting. The evidence | :25:07. | :25:11. | |
simply is not there. I would also say that it is very important that | :25:12. | :25:18. | |
the Government realise that in the public sector particularly, the | :25:19. | :25:22. | |
temperature of industrial relations, and why people are expressing a view | :25:23. | :25:27. | |
about the decision-makers on terms and conditions, because it is | :25:28. | :25:29. | |
essential that the Government response to that, therefore a high | :25:30. | :25:35. | |
turnout will help inform the Government in its decision-making | :25:36. | :25:39. | |
processes, and that is vital. Like many colleagues of mine I also want | :25:40. | :25:43. | |
to draw on the point that while the Government depends on electronic | :25:44. | :25:48. | |
means for far more, I would say, serious matters like tax returns, | :25:49. | :25:54. | |
local Government, council tax collection, all done and | :25:55. | :25:57. | |
chronically, driving licence application, the means of Reg chip | :25:58. | :26:02. | |
-- registering to vote in a parliamentary election, and we know | :26:03. | :26:06. | |
many if not all bank transfers of millions of pounds in which the | :26:07. | :26:10. | |
Government will engage is done electronically. So why does a vote | :26:11. | :26:16. | |
of an independent trade union have to have even more rigour than the | :26:17. | :26:18. | |
processes the Government already use? It doesn't add up other than | :26:19. | :26:24. | |
that this is a political tool the Government is using. I want to turn | :26:25. | :26:29. | |
to one more issue on electronic balloting, which is this process of | :26:30. | :26:35. | |
review and roll-out. We do not have confidence in the Government's | :26:36. | :26:39. | |
intentions behind this. I would say that I think the Government should | :26:40. | :26:44. | |
set out today exactly the timetable for this review, saying to start in | :26:45. | :26:48. | |
six months but when will it end? How long will it last? And how will it | :26:49. | :26:53. | |
positively leading to roll out? I would also say that we need to start | :26:54. | :26:59. | |
looking now, enabling trade unions to provide that evidence and build | :27:00. | :27:04. | |
the evidence on pilots which they can run in parallel to prove to you | :27:05. | :27:10. | |
that electronic voting is safe, accurate and gets a clear result on | :27:11. | :27:14. | |
the intentions of the workers over the dispute. I also want to move on | :27:15. | :27:22. | |
to the issue of the cap, the facilities time cap, because I think | :27:23. | :27:26. | |
what was behind what the Minister was saying is again there was no | :27:27. | :27:30. | |
evidence. If we look at the cost, the cost of administration, the time | :27:31. | :27:36. | |
taken out of ministers hands reviewing what the administration | :27:37. | :27:41. | |
has put together doing this review, how only personnel... Will hell | :27:42. | :27:45. | |
whole unit be set up concerning itself with this review, a review | :27:46. | :27:52. | |
over three years, and what about the employers? It public sector | :27:53. | :27:55. | |
employers will also have to dedicate loads of time providing evidence | :27:56. | :27:59. | |
into that review, time they do not have and as we see they are already | :28:00. | :28:05. | |
challenge with cuts to local Government, NHS and elsewhere, how | :28:06. | :28:09. | |
will they have the resources to supply the Minister with the | :28:10. | :28:12. | |
information that he will spend hours, I am sure, day and night, | :28:13. | :28:17. | |
scrutinising, to make an assessment whether or not there has been access | :28:18. | :28:21. | |
of cost in place. How will the Minister balance the minuscule cast | :28:22. | :28:30. | |
of the facilities time with the amount of money trade unions save | :28:31. | :28:36. | |
through not going to employment tribunal is, not seeing sickness | :28:37. | :28:42. | |
levels so high, and adding value to organisations, increasing | :28:43. | :28:44. | |
productivity. How will the Minister address that? I would like a | :28:45. | :28:48. | |
response to how that particular question. On health and safety, | :28:49. | :28:52. | |
learning, and the value wrap spring, how will he assess that cost. At | :28:53. | :29:05. | |
every stage in this Bill I have asked what the calamity years in | :29:06. | :29:09. | |
industrial relations in our land that requires us to bring forward | :29:10. | :29:13. | |
new primary legislation, and I have yet to receive an answer to that | :29:14. | :29:17. | |
because of course there is none. This proposal is unique amongst many | :29:18. | :29:21. | |
we have considered in this House because it is not a proposal to | :29:22. | :29:26. | |
change public policy as a result of a prominent identified in society, | :29:27. | :29:33. | |
but something motivated purely by the ideology of factions inside the | :29:34. | :29:38. | |
Conservative Party who have scores to settle and whose antipathy | :29:39. | :29:42. | |
towards the trade unions is manifest. I know we have heard some | :29:43. | :29:46. | |
of them, we are -- they are not in their place at the moment, some | :29:47. | :29:50. | |
members do not share that view, but overall that is where the centre of | :29:51. | :29:55. | |
political gravity lies in the party of Government. It has said in itself | :29:56. | :30:01. | |
-- has set in itself an attitude towards trade unions which is not | :30:02. | :30:05. | |
shared by any other Government in Europe nor indeed in the advanced | :30:06. | :30:10. | |
capitalist world. Why is it that this Government is going so far out | :30:11. | :30:13. | |
on a limb to set itself apart from everyone else? I accept that the | :30:14. | :30:18. | |
Bill we have before us today with these amendments and the | :30:19. | :30:21. | |
Government's position is slightly less bad than it was on the 11th of | :30:22. | :30:25. | |
January when we had the second reading, but the is no doubt, this | :30:26. | :30:30. | |
is still very much an anti-trade union Bill. This is designed to | :30:31. | :30:37. | |
detail the expression, capacity and effectiveness of free trade Unions | :30:38. | :30:42. | |
in our country. I have to speculate if this is a genuine change of heart | :30:43. | :30:45. | |
on behalf of the Government or whether other factors may be | :30:46. | :30:52. | |
involved in its consideration of how many things you can fright on at | :30:53. | :30:57. | |
once. I wonder of the proximity of the referendum in June has persuaded | :30:58. | :31:03. | |
the Government that it ought to try not to engage into larger conflict | :31:04. | :31:06. | |
with the trade unions of this land because it needs their support to | :31:07. | :31:11. | |
secure the Government position of staying in the EU. That is why I | :31:12. | :31:15. | |
think we all want to see the words written down in black and white | :31:16. | :31:20. | |
rather than Act set the spoken Word of ministers at the dispatch box at | :31:21. | :31:27. | |
this time. I am glad that in Scotland the situation is different | :31:28. | :31:32. | |
as my model friend the Member of the Glasgow South West confirmed, the | :31:33. | :31:35. | |
Scottish Government is committed to working in partnership with Scottish | :31:36. | :31:38. | |
trade unions to build our economy and build prosperity, and we believe | :31:39. | :31:43. | |
they are a vital component of civil society. If my party is re-elected | :31:44. | :31:48. | |
this note -- next week we will pledge to do Everything within the | :31:49. | :31:52. | |
law we can do to compromise this Bill and prevent them frustrating | :31:53. | :31:58. | |
the operation for free trade unions. I want to dwell on two things under | :31:59. | :32:03. | |
consideration, the first is electronic ballots. When the | :32:04. | :32:07. | |
Government first announced the attitude to electronic balloting, it | :32:08. | :32:11. | |
seemed like an analog Government in a digital age scared of the | :32:12. | :32:14. | |
possibility of electronic balloting, and it is a matter of irony that it | :32:15. | :32:21. | |
takes the contemporary modern and forward-thinking institution of the | :32:22. | :32:24. | |
House of Lords to persuade them of the error of their ways. I accept | :32:25. | :32:29. | |
what the Minister said and the Government's position that they have | :32:30. | :32:33. | |
moved slightly. They can no longer defend the intervention, which is to | :32:34. | :32:37. | |
say they will not allow an electronic balloting in a society | :32:38. | :32:40. | |
where that is the norm and commonplace for most citizens. You | :32:41. | :32:46. | |
are looking at me, Mr Deputy Speaker, I will try to be as quick | :32:47. | :32:51. | |
as I can. That is why we are concerned, when the Minister gets | :32:52. | :32:55. | |
himself a get out clause, if he had come with an amendment that said | :32:56. | :32:58. | |
that unless it can be shown that there are clear problems to the | :32:59. | :33:04. | |
introduction and roll-out of electronic balloting it will | :33:05. | :33:08. | |
go-ahead, we might have sympathy, but he is trying to give himself a | :33:09. | :33:12. | |
get out clause to rent this happening in future. And in our | :33:13. | :33:16. | |
post-referendum situation he may not be so well disposed to favouring the | :33:17. | :33:21. | |
trade unions. They think it is up in defence about a statutory matter. It | :33:22. | :33:26. | |
is only statutory in the sense that trade unions operate within the | :33:27. | :33:32. | |
framework of legislation, but so do charities and private companies, so | :33:33. | :33:36. | |
indeed do political parties. I find that a thin defence. I will wind up | :33:37. | :33:41. | |
by talking about the facility cap. I did want to make this point because | :33:42. | :33:47. | |
I have witnessed some bizarre debates in this chamber, but this | :33:48. | :33:51. | |
one is frankly bordering on the surreal. We are being asked to pass | :33:52. | :33:58. | |
legislation to try and prevent something which the Minister accepts | :33:59. | :34:04. | |
we don't know exists. LAUGHTER. This is fantasy legislation and | :34:05. | :34:11. | |
lawmaking, and I think the proposals for the facility time cap should be | :34:12. | :34:15. | |
checked and weight should reject the Government's attempt, and if we get | :34:16. | :34:21. | |
the chance, vote against this legislation. I will be brief, I want | :34:22. | :34:27. | |
to welcome the Government's shift in position particularly relating to | :34:28. | :34:32. | |
the point on check off, because I don't think it has any intrinsic | :34:33. | :34:39. | |
cost to the employer. It is a check in a box on a payroll system. But I | :34:40. | :34:45. | |
see this shift in viewpoint as testament to the hard work of | :34:46. | :34:48. | |
thousands of ordinary working people who in their own time take on | :34:49. | :34:52. | |
additional responsibilities to support and protect their fellow | :34:53. | :34:58. | |
workers rights, often not a task that is thanked either by their | :34:59. | :35:02. | |
co-workers or employers on some occasions. They really do go above | :35:03. | :35:07. | |
and beyond in that role. The trade unions have a history of | :35:08. | :35:10. | |
International is and I want to use this occasion to raise the point | :35:11. | :35:15. | |
that tomorrow is international Workers Memorial Day, a day | :35:16. | :35:20. | |
supported by the TUC, the trade union movement as a whole, lawyers, | :35:21. | :35:25. | |
the Health and Safety Executive, and I will not be able to attend the | :35:26. | :35:29. | |
events tomorrow so I want to pay tribute to Herbert Stiles, who | :35:30. | :35:38. | |
religiously organises this event in Immingham, groups B and Cleethorpes. | :35:39. | :35:43. | |
The event is growing every year -- back Grimsby and Cleethorpes. I am | :35:44. | :35:49. | |
grateful to the work he puts in to take the time Tehran that those who | :35:50. | :35:54. | |
lost their lives in the course of their work -- the time to remember | :35:55. | :36:04. | |
those. Someone will be there in my place to lay a wreath, and I would | :36:05. | :36:09. | |
like that day recorded on our calendars. Can the Minister assist | :36:10. | :36:14. | |
in getting that recorded in calendars and diaries across the UK? | :36:15. | :36:23. | |
This is supposed to be a modernised, that was the word the Minister used, | :36:24. | :36:29. | |
modernised ballot. It is trying to stop people taking strike action. If | :36:30. | :36:34. | |
electronic balloting was allowed he knows the turnout would go way | :36:35. | :36:41. | |
beyond the limits. The party opposite have realised they will set | :36:42. | :36:42. | |
themselves a tug of war. They have set a precedent. Cuban | :36:43. | :36:55. | |
genuine, -- if you are genuine, but have as many as possible. In the | :36:56. | :37:00. | |
1980s when the Tory government tried to control the rights of people to | :37:01. | :37:06. | |
take industrial action, they were told that if you do away with | :37:07. | :37:11. | |
workforce ballots, you will reduce the turnout and the figures proved | :37:12. | :37:16. | |
that for over 30 years the average turnout was 80%. If you get 40% now | :37:17. | :37:23. | |
you are doing well. In terms of facility time, this shows the real | :37:24. | :37:28. | |
ignorance from the party opposite. They don't know what is going on in | :37:29. | :37:34. | |
the world. In 1986I spent every day for a fortnight visiting a hospital | :37:35. | :37:42. | |
and a man who had been buried under 50 tonnes of coal. Five years later | :37:43. | :37:51. | |
I was working for Newcastle City Council encouraging home care | :37:52. | :37:55. | |
workers who were working themselves into an early grave to say it is in | :37:56. | :38:00. | |
your interest with retirement agreement when they would not talk | :38:01. | :38:04. | |
to personal officers because they were frightened of the authority | :38:05. | :38:09. | |
figure. I was able to convince them that it was the right thing for them | :38:10. | :38:17. | |
to do. What is proposed now from the likes of meat will not be there, | :38:18. | :38:21. | |
they will have some clerk who will be filling in forms to send the | :38:22. | :38:25. | |
London for someone in London. It is an absolute nonsense and should be | :38:26. | :38:29. | |
thrown out. I thank him for giving way. For the | :38:30. | :38:47. | |
past 50 or 60 years, every Tory government manifesto has had a | :38:48. | :38:53. | |
clause to protect trade unions. He referred to facility time, it shows | :38:54. | :39:03. | |
how out of touch they are. Any major employer and welcomes facilitating | :39:04. | :39:05. | |
because it saves them a lot of money in the end. That's absolutely right. | :39:06. | :39:14. | |
If they had spoken to enable reasonable employer 's company, any | :39:15. | :39:17. | |
trade union, they would get a picture of the real story. I realise | :39:18. | :39:28. | |
that time is short so I will be brief. Welcome as it is that the | :39:29. | :39:33. | |
government have been forced into a series of rather embarrassing | :39:34. | :39:39. | |
U-turns, the bill, and I say this from our side, which does not | :39:40. | :39:46. | |
receive funding from the trade union movement, we regard this not as a | :39:47. | :39:48. | |
sensible attempt to look at some of the issues around party funding | :39:49. | :39:51. | |
which clearly should be done in the round and fairly, and we would | :39:52. | :39:59. | |
support, but this always was set out to be eight cynical politically | :40:00. | :40:02. | |
motivated bill that undermines the important role that trade unions | :40:03. | :40:08. | |
play in the democratic process. It is very encouraging that the other | :40:09. | :40:14. | |
place have acted in a measured way, in a cross-party way and rather than | :40:15. | :40:19. | |
simply striking down a raft of the bill as many would have liked to | :40:20. | :40:23. | |
have seen, have suggested cross-party sensible measured | :40:24. | :40:28. | |
amendments. I will briefly give way. I thank him for giving way. It is | :40:29. | :40:37. | |
amazing that they have resorted to a high-handed regulation. It said set | :40:38. | :40:43. | |
out as an extremely draconian bill that was not done in any | :40:44. | :40:47. | |
collaborative way. I do think this change of heart, and it has not gone | :40:48. | :40:56. | |
far enough, it is clear that the government have realised they cannot | :40:57. | :40:58. | |
make enemies of the trade unions when they need that movement to | :40:59. | :41:06. | |
secure a Yes vote in the EU referendum. I looked bored to | :41:07. | :41:10. | |
working with the trade unionists and people with all parties to achieve | :41:11. | :41:17. | |
that. On this particular amendment, the government have made a U-turn | :41:18. | :41:22. | |
and it is welcome and we will not be opposing it but they have simply | :41:23. | :41:27. | |
failed to make the case that electronic voting is not a sensible, | :41:28. | :41:31. | |
moderate way forward. That exposes the fact that what this is about is | :41:32. | :41:36. | |
trying to stop trade unions getting to the threshold rather than | :41:37. | :41:38. | |
sensibly reforming the system, something we would oppose. We will | :41:39. | :41:44. | |
continue to make the case for that alongside others. I believe the | :41:45. | :41:49. | |
government should think again about their attitude to trade unions | :41:50. | :41:53. | |
during this and work together with parties. I draw attention to the my | :41:54. | :42:02. | |
membership of the GMB and Unison and I want to make one brief point in | :42:03. | :42:08. | |
relation to my early intervention on the Welsh government. The minister | :42:09. | :42:11. | |
is placing the government on a collision course with the worst | :42:12. | :42:14. | |
government which will end up in the Supreme Court at great cost to the | :42:15. | :42:18. | |
public pulse on facility time and where the UK Government will come on | :42:19. | :42:24. | |
its own legal advice can lose, so I ask the Minister to reconsider his | :42:25. | :42:29. | |
approach to this area of the bill. The question is, the government | :42:30. | :42:31. | |
amendment to be made. The question is that the amendment | :42:32. | :44:20. | |
to be made, as many of that opinion. The ayes to the right, 312, the noes | :44:21. | :51:04. | |
to the left, 260. The ayes to the right, 312, the noes | :51:05. | :56:33. | |
to the left, 260. The ayes have it. Unlock. | :56:34. | :56:37. | |
Under the order of the House earlier today I must now bring to conclusion | :56:38. | :56:44. | |
proceedings on consideration of the first group. I called the Minister | :56:45. | :56:51. | |
to move amendment be. The question is that the amendment be made, as | :56:52. | :56:58. | |
many are of that opinion say I, of the country, no, the ayes have it. | :56:59. | :57:05. | |
Amendments two as amendment. The question is that the amendment be | :57:06. | :57:13. | |
agreed to. The ayes have it. Minister to move to disagree to | :57:14. | :57:20. | |
Lords amendments 17 formally. The question is that this has disagrees | :57:21. | :57:28. | |
with the Lord in amendment 17. Division, clear the lobby. | :57:29. | :59:29. | |
The question is that this has disagrees with amendments 17. | :59:30. | :59:39. | |
Tellers for the ayes and tellers for the noes. Thank you very much. | :59:40. | :00:58. | |
Order, order. The eyes to the raid, 307. The nose to the left, 268. | :00:59. | :09:31. | |
As many that opinion, say I. The have it. It will be commuted -- will | :09:32. | :10:03. | |
be considering the Government motion to disagree to Lords amendment | :10:04. | :10:07. | |
eight. Government amendment is key to P, in the blue of Lords | :10:08. | :10:13. | |
amendments seven to eight and nine to 16 and 18 to 29. I called the | :10:14. | :10:21. | |
Minister to move to Italy to Lords amendment one. Madam Deputy Speaker, | :10:22. | :10:25. | |
I beg to move that the house agrees with the words and their amendment | :10:26. | :10:28. | |
one and we will turn to the other amendments made to the Bell Centre | :10:29. | :10:34. | |
left the service, which I hope will be welcomed. These amendments I | :10:35. | :10:37. | |
believe improve the Bell and take account of a number of points of | :10:38. | :10:40. | |
concern raised by members both of their cellars and of the other | :10:41. | :10:45. | |
place. There are a whole raft of amendments to consider is what hope | :10:46. | :10:48. | |
honourable members will understand if I focus on the highlights in the | :10:49. | :10:53. | |
order that they appear in the belt. Firstly, on the 40% ballot | :10:54. | :10:59. | |
threshold. This relates to strike action and important public services | :11:00. | :11:03. | |
and the broad reference to ancillary workers has been removed from the | :11:04. | :11:07. | |
Bell and a reasonable belief defence for unions has been added. These | :11:08. | :11:12. | |
changes provide more clarity and certainty for unions and employers. | :11:13. | :11:18. | |
Relating to the time of industrial action, the ballot mandate has been | :11:19. | :11:22. | |
extended from four to six months and up to nine months were both the | :11:23. | :11:27. | |
union and the employer a giddy. This response to concerns raised that | :11:28. | :11:31. | |
four months was simply too short to enable both sides to resolve a | :11:32. | :11:36. | |
dispute. On the provision for two weeks notice to an employer of | :11:37. | :11:41. | |
industrial action, the Bell now considers to are allowed for the | :11:42. | :11:44. | |
current period of seven days notice were both the employer and the trade | :11:45. | :11:49. | |
union agree to that. On picketing, industries and in whistle and the | :11:50. | :11:54. | |
house of Lords, there was a great two of concern about the reference | :11:55. | :11:58. | |
to armbands in the Bell, which was taken from the original editing | :11:59. | :12:03. | |
quote which has been in force for a great deal of time. We do not want | :12:04. | :12:07. | |
packet supervisors mistakenly believing that they must wear an | :12:08. | :12:12. | |
armband. I hope this will be welcome in particular to my honourable | :12:13. | :12:16. | |
friend the member for Haltemprice and Howden who is not in his seat | :12:17. | :12:20. | |
but who had particular concerns about this and raised in eloquently | :12:21. | :12:25. | |
in our debates in this house. On political funds, this has debated at | :12:26. | :12:28. | |
length the principle that union members should make an active choice | :12:29. | :12:34. | |
to contribute to a trade union's political fund. The other places | :12:35. | :12:38. | |
that -- established at select committee on trade union funds and | :12:39. | :12:40. | |
practicable article funding under the tape -- and I would like to | :12:41. | :12:48. | |
place on record my gratitude to the noble Lord Burns and all members of | :12:49. | :12:53. | |
that committee for their deliberations on this question. The | :12:54. | :12:57. | |
bill has been amended to reflect the recommendations of the select | :12:58. | :12:59. | |
committee on the specific subject of opting in. Our manifesto commitment | :13:00. | :13:04. | |
suggested that we would want to extend the principle of opt in for | :13:05. | :13:11. | |
trade union members and we believe that the revised provision meets | :13:12. | :13:16. | |
that commitment. In future, all new members of trade unions will have to | :13:17. | :13:19. | |
make an active choice to contribute to the political fund through an | :13:20. | :13:27. | |
active opt in. There are amendment collects -- corrects some are | :13:28. | :13:30. | |
legally defective drafting in the movement by Lord Burns and agreed to | :13:31. | :13:35. | |
by the noble Lords and in particular, instead of the | :13:36. | :13:38. | |
certification Officer being given the responsibility for issuing a | :13:39. | :13:43. | |
code of practice, places as statutory obligation directly on it | :13:44. | :13:47. | |
unions themselves to provide an annual remainder of two trade union | :13:48. | :13:51. | |
members of their rights to opt in, if they are existing members," | :13:52. | :13:56. | |
comments to the position for new members to be required -- to have | :13:57. | :14:01. | |
the right to opt in. We have improved requirements on it unions | :14:02. | :14:06. | |
to report details of the political expenditure in their annual returns. | :14:07. | :14:09. | |
This reflects the debates we had on the importance of this to assist new | :14:10. | :14:14. | |
members to make informed decisions whether to injury to a unions of | :14:15. | :14:18. | |
political fund. At the heart of this position as transparency and | :14:19. | :14:24. | |
proportionality. The amendment also requires all expenditures from a | :14:25. | :14:29. | |
party political fund, including two campaigns but it also replaces the | :14:30. | :14:33. | |
onerous obligation for the union to report on every bus there. Instead, | :14:34. | :14:39. | |
unions will be required to report on the total expenditure made each | :14:40. | :14:42. | |
political party or organisation in each of the categories. And finally, | :14:43. | :14:49. | |
the other place regularly agreed to increase parliamentary oversight on | :14:50. | :14:52. | |
regulations which could in the future stick to war the reporting | :14:53. | :14:56. | |
threshold once it has been raised and therefore increase the | :14:57. | :15:02. | |
regulatory word on trade unions. Madam Deputy Speaker, we had robust | :15:03. | :15:07. | |
debates in this house and they certainly had equally robust debates | :15:08. | :15:18. | |
in the other place. These debates related to the question of union | :15:19. | :15:22. | |
subscriptions being deducted automatically from wages in the | :15:23. | :15:27. | |
public sector. The bell that we welcome back to this house allows | :15:28. | :15:33. | |
check off to continue with the costs are made by the trade unions and on | :15:34. | :15:38. | |
the basis that it unions also had the option of pinks obstructions by | :15:39. | :15:43. | |
other means. In this house, my honourable friend the member for | :15:44. | :15:49. | |
Staffordshire, I am glad to get his name wrong but he knows who she is | :15:50. | :15:54. | |
and he is not in his place, made an eloquent argument for this amendment | :15:55. | :15:57. | |
and I indicated during the report stage that we would like closely at | :15:58. | :16:03. | |
it as the bell went through the house of Lords. I hope therefore my | :16:04. | :16:08. | |
honourable friend isn't satisfied with the decision by the Government | :16:09. | :16:12. | |
to accept this amendment and I would like to pay tribute to him for his | :16:13. | :16:19. | |
work both privately and publicly end making the case for this important | :16:20. | :16:25. | |
change. On the segregation -- certification Officer, manifesto | :16:26. | :16:29. | |
commitment was to reform this role and this amendment rules that -- | :16:30. | :16:33. | |
removes the requirement for the certification Officer to act in some | :16:34. | :16:39. | |
areas only when our complaint has been received from a member of a | :16:40. | :16:42. | |
trade union. Instead, they will be able to walk and Jewish that come to | :16:43. | :16:46. | |
his attention from third parties or in the course of his duties. | :16:47. | :16:49. | |
However, the provisions have been amendment -- amended to increase the | :16:50. | :16:59. | |
ability of the certificate shafts by making sure he was not subject to | :17:00. | :17:06. | |
ministerial oversight. They are under no obligation to act on | :17:07. | :17:09. | |
complaints representations from third parties. Nevertheless, | :17:10. | :17:12. | |
concerns were raised that spurious complaints could tie up the | :17:13. | :17:16. | |
certifications officers resources and indeed place him -- place an | :17:17. | :17:23. | |
unfair burden on in trade unions. The Bell has been amended to require | :17:24. | :17:26. | |
the certification Officer must have reasonable grounds to suspect a | :17:27. | :17:31. | |
breach before appointing an inspector to conduct an | :17:32. | :17:35. | |
investigation. I am confident that this will protect trade unions from | :17:36. | :17:40. | |
both a vexatious rip -- winds and over zealous regulation. I am happy | :17:41. | :17:43. | |
to assure honourable members that we will keep this under review to see | :17:44. | :17:49. | |
how it works out in practice. In response to human rights concerns, | :17:50. | :17:52. | |
the judicial oversight of certification officers has been | :17:53. | :17:56. | |
strengthened. The bill has been amended to allow appeals to the | :17:57. | :18:01. | |
employment appeals Tribunal on the certification Officer 's decision on | :18:02. | :18:04. | |
the grounds of fact. I hope that members will -- honourable members | :18:05. | :18:10. | |
will wonder these agreements made -- one of these amendments, I believe | :18:11. | :18:15. | |
that they improve the Bell and I hope the house will see fit to | :18:16. | :18:17. | |
accept them. I thank you very much, Madam Deputy | :18:18. | :18:35. | |
Speaker and there is a great physical similarity between myself | :18:36. | :18:39. | |
and my honourable friend and it was an entire oral -- entirely | :18:40. | :18:44. | |
understandable mistake on your part to mistake one for the other. Can I | :18:45. | :18:52. | |
first of all see, I shouldn't -- I should have declared in the previous | :18:53. | :18:57. | |
section my membership of a union and my pregnant bishop of the musicians | :18:58. | :19:00. | |
union before seeing what they have to say on this amendment. My proud | :19:01. | :19:14. | |
membership of the musicians union. We are under a limited time | :19:15. | :19:22. | |
restraint. My honourable friend highlighted the significant | :19:23. | :19:23. | |
amendments. Including check off. My honourable friend from Stafford | :19:24. | :19:40. | |
dared put down an amendment and it was an extraordinary provision that | :19:41. | :19:43. | |
are conservative Government was seeking to make illegal. I will | :19:44. | :19:48. | |
voluntary arrangement between parties, even where one party came | :19:49. | :19:52. | |
for that service, we're at that party is neither a model nor illegal | :19:53. | :19:56. | |
and that would have been an extraordinary electoral measure and | :19:57. | :20:01. | |
I am glad that in their Lordships house, the Government give way on | :20:02. | :20:04. | |
that matter and it is no longer in the Bell and that is welcome. I | :20:05. | :20:09. | |
welcome what he said on the record in relation to the sector the | :20:10. | :20:13. | |
commission officer in his remarks, think it is extremely important that | :20:14. | :20:17. | |
the Government does recognise the concerns that have been concerned | :20:18. | :20:23. | |
about the potential for a vexatious complaints by third parties and day | :20:24. | :20:26. | |
to mend with a pen that could be for all concerned, so I welcome what he | :20:27. | :20:30. | |
said on the record about that and I welcome the promise of the review of | :20:31. | :20:34. | |
how that is working out in practice, although we don't agree, and I have | :20:35. | :20:40. | |
made that clear in relation to what the Government dusting in relation | :20:41. | :20:44. | |
to the certification Officer. I am glad he has put that on the record | :20:45. | :20:49. | |
year, at this stage, before the bell goes back to the Lords. No, the | :20:50. | :20:55. | |
other part of this group of amendments, perhaps the most | :20:56. | :20:58. | |
controversial part, the most contentious parts of the bell, has | :20:59. | :21:01. | |
been the Government desire to create an opt in process for trade union | :21:02. | :21:07. | |
political fund. That is right in wishing to amendment seven or eight. | :21:08. | :21:11. | |
The original proposal would have meant that existing members that | :21:12. | :21:17. | |
play into the -- PM to their unions political funds with half to opt | :21:18. | :21:21. | |
back in within three months of the passage of the bell and after five | :21:22. | :21:27. | |
years. Imagine, Madam Deputy Speaker, at every organisation in | :21:28. | :21:32. | |
the country was required to give a recommitment to the standing order | :21:33. | :21:37. | |
payable to it within three months, in writing, by post, Edward, | :21:38. | :21:42. | |
obviously, on the result on one thing, massive problems for that | :21:43. | :21:46. | |
organisation, whether it was a banker, voluntary organisation or | :21:47. | :21:51. | |
every other membership organisation, or subscription to a magazine, or | :21:52. | :21:55. | |
whatever it was. It always seemed clear to was that this was an | :21:56. | :22:06. | |
unworkable proposal designed to unilaterally refuse -- at an | :22:07. | :22:16. | |
effective attempt to undermine the opposition, Labour Party. That's why | :22:17. | :22:19. | |
when the Bell reached the House of Lords, they set up a special house | :22:20. | :22:23. | |
committee to look at this, as the minister said, under the | :22:24. | :22:29. | |
chairmanship of Lord Burns and we are grateful for his effort and the | :22:30. | :22:32. | |
efforts of his colleagues, both on the committee and in the House of | :22:33. | :22:34. | |
Lords. We should thank not just Labour | :22:35. | :22:44. | |
peers but those from other parties and crossbenchers for approaching | :22:45. | :22:48. | |
this view in an imaginative and collaborative way. I recognise, I | :22:49. | :22:58. | |
suppose, what the House of Lords did is that the Government created a | :22:59. | :23:03. | |
manifesto commitment for opt in. It made other manifesto commitments | :23:04. | :23:09. | |
about big business and we haven't seen action related to those, | :23:10. | :23:14. | |
nevertheless, it said it would introduce opt in in its manifesto | :23:15. | :23:19. | |
and it was elected with an overall majority in the House of Commons | :23:20. | :23:25. | |
albeit less than of the vote, so it has been -- less than 40% of the | :23:26. | :23:31. | |
vote, it has been able to argue that the Lords should remove opt in under | :23:32. | :23:36. | |
the normal conventions followed in the other place. I think what the | :23:37. | :23:41. | |
Lords have achieved in their amendment is therefore extremely | :23:42. | :23:45. | |
skilfully done. They have taken the view that opt into should only apply | :23:46. | :23:50. | |
to new members of a trade union, that they should be a longer period | :23:51. | :23:54. | |
of time, at least 12 months, for trade unions to adjust their rules | :23:55. | :23:59. | |
and procedures, and there should be no automatic requirement to opt in. | :24:00. | :24:04. | |
I will give way. Would my Honourable Friend also agree this will not be | :24:05. | :24:08. | |
difficult for many trade unions pickers on many trade union | :24:09. | :24:12. | |
application forms there is a box to take to contribute to a political | :24:13. | :24:21. | |
party. In the GMB union summary ran a political fund. Is it not an | :24:22. | :24:24. | |
example of legislation which is not really needed? Well, I am not | :24:25. | :24:33. | |
surprised that as he is physical mistaken for me that our opinion | :24:34. | :24:38. | |
should be identical on this matter. I agree with the point he made in | :24:39. | :24:45. | |
his intervention. I will give way. Can I take him back to what he said | :24:46. | :24:49. | |
about the House of Lords, can I echo the words of Lord Patrick Cormack, a | :24:50. | :24:54. | |
Member of this House for 40 years, who said, we don't have a advance on | :24:55. | :25:06. | |
the opt out at such a pace which in which it will unbalanced democracy. | :25:07. | :25:12. | |
Does he know this is about? It was about unbalancing democracy and | :25:13. | :25:16. | |
disadvantage in. He was right. It was a shame there are not more like | :25:17. | :25:19. | |
him over there. I pay tribute to him over there. I pay tribute to | :25:20. | :25:24. | |
Lord Cormack for his work on this and what he said in the House Lords. | :25:25. | :25:30. | |
He might seem to some and unlikely working-class hero, but this | :25:31. | :25:35. | |
instance I think what he has done has reflected what true one nation | :25:36. | :25:42. | |
conservatism should be. That is bandied about is a phrase but I | :25:43. | :25:46. | |
think his interventions in the House of Lords along with other House of | :25:47. | :25:49. | |
Lords colleagues has reminded us that we legislate not just for one | :25:50. | :25:57. | |
Parliament but the future. I will go on to describe why it would have | :25:58. | :26:00. | |
been dangerous at the Government stepped to the plans they originally | :26:01. | :26:06. | |
outlined in this area. As I said, they have looked at a workable way | :26:07. | :26:11. | |
in the Lords for the Government to reduce its stated manifesto | :26:12. | :26:15. | |
commitment without it becoming a crude and clumsy device to starve | :26:16. | :26:19. | |
the second largest party in Parliament of its largest salts of | :26:20. | :26:24. | |
finance, from the very institutions that founded the party concerned, | :26:25. | :26:30. | |
the Labour Party. I think my Honourable Friend was saying this in | :26:31. | :26:33. | |
another way, that they have done the Government a big favour by doing | :26:34. | :26:37. | |
this. Have these proposals been proceeded with on the original | :26:38. | :26:42. | |
basis, make no mistake it would have created a lasting bitterness and | :26:43. | :26:47. | |
resentment in the trade union and Labour movement, and beyond, because | :26:48. | :26:51. | |
we are grateful for the support from other political parties in relation | :26:52. | :26:57. | |
to this. I have no doubt, as many of their Lordships pointed out, and as | :26:58. | :27:02. | |
the select committee report noted in paragraph 130, and I have a copy | :27:03. | :27:07. | |
here, and I quote, that it would make the Labour Party more inclined | :27:08. | :27:11. | |
to take unilateral action against the Conservative Party and its | :27:12. | :27:15. | |
funding when next in Government. That was paragraph 130 of the | :27:16. | :27:20. | |
cross-party report in the House of Lords. It would appear at this very | :27:21. | :27:24. | |
late hour that this point has hit home to ministers, and I welcome | :27:25. | :27:28. | |
that. The Government has decided to think again on the proposals on | :27:29. | :27:34. | |
political opt ins. It has tabled the replacement amendments, which mean | :27:35. | :27:39. | |
that the requirement to opt into political funds will only apply to | :27:40. | :27:44. | |
new union members. As a result union members who have voluntarily agreed | :27:45. | :27:47. | |
to make contributions will not be acquired to opt in again to support | :27:48. | :27:51. | |
ongoing campaigns. Existing members will only be required to opt in if | :27:52. | :27:56. | |
they'd union votes to establish a political fund for the first time. | :27:57. | :28:00. | |
It is also conceded on the five years and allows for a minimum 12 | :28:01. | :28:04. | |
month transition period. Union members will be allowed to opt in or | :28:05. | :28:11. | |
out on paper but also a electronic clay. We will eventually get to | :28:12. | :28:20. | |
that. Including online forms, e-mails and potentially texts. | :28:21. | :28:23. | |
Unions will be required to remind members of their requirement to opt | :28:24. | :28:35. | |
out. The new Government amendment takes on board all the core evidence | :28:36. | :28:41. | |
of -- evidence of Lord Burns's proposal and that passed the Lords | :28:42. | :28:46. | |
by 320 votes - 172 so a greater majority than that which set up the | :28:47. | :28:50. | |
select committee on the first place, showing a growing support for that | :28:51. | :28:54. | |
approach. I still believe these proposals foreign opt in system on | :28:55. | :28:57. | |
political funds are unnecessary and we should put that on the record, | :28:58. | :29:03. | |
but we do recognise the Government is proposing a substantial | :29:04. | :29:06. | |
improvement the Bill which would have required all members to opt in | :29:07. | :29:12. | |
and remove the opt in in five years. Whilst retaining our opposition to | :29:13. | :29:17. | |
the billing general and opting in particular, we will not seek to | :29:18. | :29:20. | |
divide the House on the Government amendment is given the substantial | :29:21. | :29:24. | |
nature of the concessions they have brought forward. I would just like | :29:25. | :29:30. | |
to say... I will give way. I thank the Honourable Gentleman for giving | :29:31. | :29:36. | |
way. I agree, that what is behind this intention to move from opt out | :29:37. | :29:41. | |
to opt in is clearly an attempt by some members of the Conservative | :29:42. | :29:45. | |
Party to attack Labour Party funding. I wonder if he would agree | :29:46. | :29:50. | |
that our defence of the right of the unions to engage in political | :29:51. | :29:54. | |
activity would be more effective if we ensure that they are in gauging | :29:55. | :29:58. | |
an activity not just to support the Labour Party but engaging other | :29:59. | :30:02. | |
political action and achieve the change to support whatever parties | :30:03. | :30:06. | |
they feel is in their members best interests. It is accepted there is a | :30:07. | :30:10. | |
special relationship between the Labour Party and the trade unions. | :30:11. | :30:16. | |
They founded the Labour Party and they do campaign in all sorts of | :30:17. | :30:21. | |
ways and in all sorts of campaigns. I am grateful to all parties who | :30:22. | :30:26. | |
have recognised the importance than our Constitution of the political | :30:27. | :30:30. | |
funds of trade unions and the vital role they play in our democracy. | :30:31. | :30:35. | |
Trade union money is the cleanest money and politics compared with | :30:36. | :30:39. | |
some of the sources of money on donations to political parties, and | :30:40. | :30:44. | |
long may that continue. I will not attain the House much longer but it | :30:45. | :30:48. | |
would be remiss of me not to conclude my remarks on this section | :30:49. | :30:51. | |
without paying tribute to those who have made this change possible and | :30:52. | :30:56. | |
worked so hard to improve this dreadful Bill. I include in that all | :30:57. | :31:00. | |
my Honourable Friend is in front bench team including my Honourable | :31:01. | :31:05. | |
Friend the Shadow Secretary of State, and former members of that | :31:06. | :31:08. | |
front bench team who helped at earlier stages of this Bill, and | :31:09. | :31:12. | |
members of other parties in this House who have helped to fight the | :31:13. | :31:16. | |
good fight as well as my Honourable friends on the side the House. I | :31:17. | :31:22. | |
want to special tribute to my very good friend Baroness Smith of | :31:23. | :31:28. | |
Basildon and her team in the Lords, as well as all the other peers from | :31:29. | :31:33. | |
other parties and no party who voted to create the select committee and | :31:34. | :31:38. | |
worked so diligently to get us to where we are today. It is said that | :31:39. | :31:43. | |
our constitution means that the opposition has its say but the | :31:44. | :31:47. | |
Government gets its way. In this instance the opposition has had its | :31:48. | :31:52. | |
day and at least in part got its way. As a result this is a piece of | :31:53. | :31:56. | |
legislation which has had some of the most pernicious edges knocked | :31:57. | :32:07. | |
off, even if it remains a pig's ear. Can I welcome the work of the Lords | :32:08. | :32:11. | |
as the Honourable Member for Cardiff West has just outlined, but it was | :32:12. | :32:15. | |
quite clear what this Bill was about. The Prime Minister talks | :32:16. | :32:20. | |
about being a one nation Conservative, yes. He wants to be a | :32:21. | :32:24. | |
one nation Conservative which is one party having the advantage, the | :32:25. | :32:27. | |
Conservative Party. To be honest if you need to know the disappointment | :32:28. | :32:33. | |
you only need to look at the Secretary of State's face, which | :32:34. | :32:38. | |
seems to tell it all. There was no need for this legislation, it was | :32:39. | :32:44. | |
based on, I think, a prejudice in understanding the way the trade | :32:45. | :32:47. | |
unions work but also an attempt to make sure the Conservative Party had | :32:48. | :32:53. | |
not only a political advantage but a major financial advantage. In terms | :32:54. | :33:00. | |
of the legislation saying new members will have two opt in, this | :33:01. | :33:06. | |
will not come as any great surprise to trade unions, because if | :33:07. | :33:12. | |
ministers take trouble to review trade union application forms, there | :33:13. | :33:15. | |
is a box on there, which says, if you want to contribute, tick this | :33:16. | :33:19. | |
box, it is up to members whether they wish to do that. So the idea | :33:20. | :33:26. | |
that this needs to be on the face is a remarkable. We know why we are | :33:27. | :33:32. | |
here today with the climb-down we have seen. The climb-down has | :33:33. | :33:36. | |
nothing to do with the Trade Union Bill. It has to do with the | :33:37. | :33:40. | |
realisation on the half of the primaries do that if he wants trade | :33:41. | :33:44. | |
unionists to vote yes in the EU referendum he will have to give them | :33:45. | :33:51. | |
onside. That's as we often see in politics, the coming together of | :33:52. | :33:56. | |
events has benefited and defeated this piece of pernicious | :33:57. | :33:59. | |
legislation, because had it gone through, as the House of Lords said | :34:00. | :34:05. | |
in its report, it would have given the Conservative Party and advantage | :34:06. | :34:09. | |
in political funding. I must say I totally agree with my Honourable | :34:10. | :34:12. | |
Friend the Member for Cardiff West when he says trade union Murray is | :34:13. | :34:17. | |
as clean as any. It is transparent the way it is spent -- trade union | :34:18. | :34:24. | |
money, it is regulated, and we cannot say the same for sources of | :34:25. | :34:29. | |
funding to the Conservative Party, whether it be through dining clubs | :34:30. | :34:36. | |
or corporate associations, which are a way of masking the true source of | :34:37. | :34:43. | |
that type of donations. I do look forward now to the Government | :34:44. | :34:49. | |
bringing forward legislation on the reform of party funding, including | :34:50. | :34:54. | |
greater transparency in terms of the sourcing of funding, because that, | :34:55. | :34:59. | |
if we are going to have an even playing field in terms of not only | :35:00. | :35:04. | |
the ability to raise funds but also knowing where money comes from, that | :35:05. | :35:11. | |
will, I think, be vitally needed. But in terms of the other side of | :35:12. | :35:15. | |
this, which I think again, I think the media have misunderstood this | :35:16. | :35:22. | |
and the ministers... Soriano aboard the Secretary of State having left | :35:23. | :35:26. | |
but he is obviously unhappy that his flagship legislation stands in | :35:27. | :35:33. | |
tatters today. It is quite clear, the impression given by the | :35:34. | :35:37. | |
Conservative Party and its supporters is that everything will | :35:38. | :35:40. | |
trade union donates all its political funds to the Labour Party. | :35:41. | :35:45. | |
This is not the case. Many are not affiliated and make donated -- no | :35:46. | :35:48. | |
donations to political parties. Having been in the GMB myself I know | :35:49. | :35:52. | |
the proportion which goes to the Labour Party is a small amount | :35:53. | :35:57. | |
compared to the campaigning work which allowed that union not just a | :35:58. | :36:03. | |
campaign in terms of issues relevant to them but also health and safety, | :36:04. | :36:07. | |
legislation, ensuring reorganisation of hospitals are taking cup base, | :36:08. | :36:12. | |
the union, quite rightly, is allowed to do that. Without that fund they | :36:13. | :36:16. | |
would not be able to do that. It would take away not just the ability | :36:17. | :36:22. | |
of my own party to receive money from trade unions but also hamper | :36:23. | :36:27. | |
trade unions, quite rightly, to take part in civic life in this country | :36:28. | :36:32. | |
in terms of being able to have a voice, make sure their members | :36:33. | :36:37. | |
voices heard in whatever consultation and whatever happens | :36:38. | :36:38. | |
and affects directly their members. The other misnomers this idea that | :36:39. | :36:48. | |
once people pay in the somehow blocked on forever. This is not the | :36:49. | :36:52. | |
case. I used to deal with this every day of the week, people that decided | :36:53. | :36:57. | |
to opt out. It is a clear mechanism for most trade unions for people to | :36:58. | :37:02. | |
do this. This idea that people are being forced to do this you aren't | :37:03. | :37:07. | |
they are well is just not the case. As I said earlier on, people take a | :37:08. | :37:10. | |
conscious decision when they join and fill out an application form, to | :37:11. | :37:15. | |
take whether they want to pay the political levy or not. I think it is | :37:16. | :37:21. | |
a piece of legislation that is not needed but comes from a place of | :37:22. | :37:25. | |
ignorance on the part of the party opposite but also think that | :37:26. | :37:30. | |
goodness. They won the general election in 2015 and thought they | :37:31. | :37:35. | |
could do whatever they liked to the democratic processes of this | :37:36. | :37:39. | |
country. The other point is the issue of check off. It is a useless | :37:40. | :37:47. | |
piece of legislation. Many organisations already choose to levy | :37:48. | :37:53. | |
an administration fee for the administration of the check off | :37:54. | :37:57. | |
system. I think this -- I don't think this has been honoured -- | :37:58. | :38:00. | |
Kaunas on many trade unions who already do this. My Honourable | :38:01. | :38:06. | |
Friend from Yorkshire said this was a minor point got --, a minor point, | :38:07. | :38:20. | |
but not worth seeing. Again, something that is not needed. I | :38:21. | :38:28. | |
think what is surely important as calculating the real cost of check | :38:29. | :38:33. | |
off, because it is absolutely nominal and many trade unions are | :38:34. | :38:37. | |
subsidising local authorities, the NHS and other public wadis, on the | :38:38. | :38:43. | |
amount they pay. I shall my age when this used to have to be done | :38:44. | :38:47. | |
manually and there was a costing, but she is quite right, in terms of | :38:48. | :38:53. | |
the modern systems, computer appeals, for example, the cost is, | :38:54. | :38:57. | |
well, very difficult to determine. In conclusion, I think we have got | :38:58. | :39:03. | |
to the point with this Bill that I think is, I agree with my friend | :39:04. | :39:10. | |
that I do oppose this Bill as a whole, but in terms of the | :39:11. | :39:14. | |
compromise we have fewer, because of the EU referendum, I think it is a | :39:15. | :39:21. | |
good place. Can I just put down this final warning. I hope that once the | :39:22. | :39:28. | |
referendum is over, that the members of the city do not start bringing | :39:29. | :39:33. | |
back more legislation to try and fill in what they did not get in | :39:34. | :39:37. | |
this piece of legislation. That will not only be another attack on the | :39:38. | :39:42. | |
trade unions, one of the most highly regulated parts of our country, it | :39:43. | :39:48. | |
would also, again, show the vindictiveness that there are still | :39:49. | :39:51. | |
as an part of the Conservative Party and part of this country. I look | :39:52. | :39:58. | |
forward to, not long after June, to see the Bill come forward for an | :39:59. | :40:05. | |
expectation of total transparency in party funding in this country. | :40:06. | :40:09. | |
Because of trade Unions can do it and have the openers they have in | :40:10. | :40:14. | |
terms of the money, should have it so that other donations given to | :40:15. | :40:18. | |
political parties should have the same scrutiny and transparency, so | :40:19. | :40:21. | |
people can make up the road and maimed when they go to the ballot | :40:22. | :40:29. | |
box. Chris Stephens. Madam Deputy Speaker, it is a pleasure to follow | :40:30. | :40:35. | |
my Honourable Friend. I agree with many of the points he made. In terms | :40:36. | :40:41. | |
of the SNP position, we have always opposed the Government 's proposals, | :40:42. | :40:47. | |
in terms of the trade union political funds, for a simple | :40:48. | :40:50. | |
reason. It should be up to trade union members to decide where their | :40:51. | :40:53. | |
money goes. It is up to trade union members to decide whether they | :40:54. | :40:57. | |
should support one or two point -- one party or another, or in some | :40:58. | :41:03. | |
cases, trade unions have decided to sponsor individual candidates, given | :41:04. | :41:08. | |
that work to -- as opposed to given that work to a particular political | :41:09. | :41:14. | |
party. This was not an attack just on the Labour Party but on the | :41:15. | :41:18. | |
ability of the trade unions to organise and effectively across the | :41:19. | :41:21. | |
community which the political funds have done in terms of their great | :41:22. | :41:28. | |
tune in to work and healthy safety work, antiracism work. And also at | :41:29. | :41:38. | |
international work, which would trade unions do a lot of fantastic | :41:39. | :41:41. | |
work in terms of its international work across the world. In terms of | :41:42. | :41:50. | |
check off, it will come as no surprise to any trade unionists that | :41:51. | :41:53. | |
this is not a major change. One has said that they have 11,000 different | :41:54. | :41:58. | |
agreements we are they are contributing to the cost of check | :41:59. | :42:06. | |
off. So, we do well, the governments turn on that. -- welcome. I wanted | :42:07. | :42:22. | |
to say a few words. I think if those who -- those voices who had the | :42:23. | :42:27. | |
experience in a trade union workplace, if those voices add our | :42:28. | :42:32. | |
trade union background were listened to and she did, there would not be | :42:33. | :42:38. | |
any need to be where we are now. There are perhaps would not even be | :42:39. | :42:42. | |
a change union Bell. Many opposition members have pointed out on a | :42:43. | :42:47. | |
regular basis how unnecessary and unwarranted this legislation | :42:48. | :42:53. | |
actually is. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker, I am grateful for the | :42:54. | :42:57. | |
opportunity to speak this afternoon. I declare an interest as a Member of | :42:58. | :43:02. | |
Unison and he commended trade unions and refer to my register in the | :43:03. | :43:06. | |
declaration of financial interests. I should also say that well I am | :43:07. | :43:12. | |
Member of these unions, have very good employers in the deepwater | :43:13. | :43:16. | |
offered North and I don't anticipate going on strike any time soon. | :43:17. | :43:20. | |
Whilst the Government 's concessions this afternoon are welcomed, I think | :43:21. | :43:24. | |
it is ironic that it has fallen to the unelected House to defend some | :43:25. | :43:28. | |
of the most democratic elements of trade unions and their commitment to | :43:29. | :43:32. | |
democratic life in this country. For some reason, this Government elected | :43:33. | :43:37. | |
with just a slender majority of 12 seems to think that that majority | :43:38. | :43:41. | |
gives it carte blanche to trample all over the democratic traditions | :43:42. | :43:45. | |
and values and heritage of our country and it is not just a brazen | :43:46. | :43:49. | |
attack on part political funding and the Labour Party in particular that | :43:50. | :43:53. | |
they embarked upon with this Bell, but look on the record in the short | :43:54. | :43:57. | |
thing they have governed as a single majority party. They have sought to | :43:58. | :44:07. | |
gag civil societies, restricted trade unions, this Sunday new | :44:08. | :44:11. | |
restrictions clicking on any publicly funded body which has the | :44:12. | :44:19. | |
potential to gag Hawkins of people, including academics and | :44:20. | :44:21. | |
universities. We will see what the higher education Bill says later | :44:22. | :44:24. | |
this year when undoubtedly we'll another call at student unions again | :44:25. | :44:30. | |
like the dead in the 1990s. Listening to what the Minister has | :44:31. | :44:33. | |
said this afternoon, and particularly in terms of the | :44:34. | :44:37. | |
previous amendments passed and underlined why this Bill should | :44:38. | :44:43. | |
still be opposed, there can be no evidence -based argument against | :44:44. | :44:49. | |
trialling electronic balloting for trade unions. The Minister himself | :44:50. | :44:53. | |
could not offer a single shred of evidence to argue against a simple | :44:54. | :44:58. | |
trial. What this has really been about as they delegitimise Asian | :44:59. | :45:02. | |
Unions. What the Government what to say is that whenever people go on | :45:03. | :45:04. | |
strike or take industrial action that it is a hard romp of activists | :45:05. | :45:10. | |
who have prompted that action. Even the measures of this Bill would not | :45:11. | :45:15. | |
have prevented the junior doctors going on strike. Nor at the London | :45:16. | :45:22. | |
transport members going on strike, because the turnout exceeds the | :45:23. | :45:25. | |
threshold in the legislation and if they were serious about trade unions | :45:26. | :45:30. | |
having pride, democratic legitimacy, they should unshackle their hands so | :45:31. | :45:34. | |
that the trade union membership and activists can do what they want to | :45:35. | :45:40. | |
do, what they have asked to do, which is to enter the 21st-century | :45:41. | :45:49. | |
with electronic balloting. We have also had the Government | :45:50. | :45:50. | |
fundamentally misunderstanding the trade unions. Cool ten | :45:51. | :45:57. | |
representatives play a valuable role in good industrial relations. They | :45:58. | :46:00. | |
take up cases on behalf of their members and make sure they are | :46:01. | :46:04. | |
represented and supported. They advise employers on how to improve | :46:05. | :46:09. | |
the workplace environment and where there are good relations, the | :46:10. | :46:16. | |
likelihood of striking is lessened and the workplace environment is | :46:17. | :46:23. | |
better for everyone. I kept we. Isn't an overrule for the trade | :46:24. | :46:26. | |
union movement and the welfare role that they have, where workers enable | :46:27. | :46:33. | |
them to get assistance and help where they may not know about it. I | :46:34. | :46:37. | |
wholeheartedly 80 and he speaks with great experience in his own | :46:38. | :46:41. | |
background in the trade union movement. I think good employers | :46:42. | :46:44. | |
argue that foolish and Shepherd trade unions and I certainly know | :46:45. | :46:48. | |
that the trade union members that I speak to, whether in my authority | :46:49. | :46:56. | |
representatives and other workplaces, it is not that they have | :46:57. | :47:00. | |
excessive time, it is that they don't have enough and the struggle | :47:01. | :47:04. | |
to deal with caseloads, particular when there are major changes to | :47:05. | :47:09. | |
employment. That generates a huge workload that I do not think that | :47:10. | :47:16. | |
the Government appreciates. The trading is campaigning work and | :47:17. | :47:19. | |
funding legal action, which has led to millions of people getting the | :47:20. | :47:23. | |
rightful compensation for industrial injuries such as the miners | :47:24. | :47:29. | |
compensation scheme that was pioneered by the trade union | :47:30. | :47:33. | |
movement and without that millions of people in this country who | :47:34. | :47:36. | |
suffered from no fault of their own would not have got the rightful | :47:37. | :47:41. | |
compensation. I wholeheartedly 80 and if we're honest, the trade | :47:42. | :47:45. | |
unions too often have to speak up for people who otherwise would not | :47:46. | :47:48. | |
have a voice and it is often because the killers of this place and | :47:49. | :47:53. | |
different governments over the years that trade unions have had to | :47:54. | :47:57. | |
exercise pressure on behalf of their members, exercise that muscle to | :47:58. | :48:00. | |
make sure that Government Act to protect those people that have been | :48:01. | :48:07. | |
terrible injustice. I speak from experience, both as formally as a | :48:08. | :48:11. | |
trade union were doing exactly those legal cases that my Honourable | :48:12. | :48:16. | |
Friend has reverted, but also as an employer who benefited from having a | :48:17. | :48:20. | |
unionised workplace in order to resolve issues and disagreements and | :48:21. | :48:23. | |
get changes through in companies and without a union representative that | :48:24. | :48:27. | |
the new representative in the work was that would be much more | :48:28. | :48:31. | |
difficult. We can see it from both sides. I wholeheartedly agree. | :48:32. | :48:36. | |
Actually, I have sat on the employer side of the table working with trade | :48:37. | :48:41. | |
unions, more than I have sat on the employee said. I had been a Member | :48:42. | :48:45. | |
of a trade union for as long as I had been in full-time work and it | :48:46. | :48:48. | |
comes back to the point that I made, that employers often value that | :48:49. | :48:53. | |
relationship, which is not adversarial, although at some things | :48:54. | :49:03. | |
can be. When people do choose to go on strike, it is worth bearing in | :49:04. | :49:07. | |
that it was their pay, they do not do it publicly and many families | :49:08. | :49:10. | |
struggle to balance their budgets at the end of the month as it is, what | :49:11. | :49:15. | |
too much month and not enough money left, so the idea of losing a couple | :49:16. | :49:19. | |
of days or more of their salary is often a real hardship to these | :49:20. | :49:23. | |
people. They do not take this action likely and don't think that is | :49:24. | :49:26. | |
understood enough when we talk about, any terms -- in the club | :49:27. | :49:34. | |
terms, industrial action. I wasn't about to be concessions made and | :49:35. | :49:39. | |
there will be no changes to facilitate payment to lap a few | :49:40. | :49:43. | |
years and that we have done all the assessment, how long is this going | :49:44. | :49:47. | |
to take? How much money will this cost? And which civil servants | :49:48. | :49:52. | |
timers is going to cost? Bizarrely, we have a Government that will waste | :49:53. | :49:56. | |
time coding project union facility time for employers up and down the | :49:57. | :49:59. | |
country but it will not count the number of children in poverty. It | :50:00. | :50:05. | |
will waste time counting facility time but we won't measure jailed | :50:06. | :50:09. | |
poverty. That tells you everything you need to know about the wrong | :50:10. | :50:13. | |
headed priorities of this Government and free time wasting that they have | :50:14. | :50:17. | |
done by bringing forward this Bell in the first place. I congratulate | :50:18. | :50:20. | |
members of the House of Lords for the way that they have really torn | :50:21. | :50:26. | |
this Bill are part and exposed it to forensics originally with the | :50:27. | :50:28. | |
Government does not have a majority and we have had extra days from | :50:29. | :50:32. | |
right across the political spectrum in the House of Lords. I think it is | :50:33. | :50:38. | |
also worth bidding on the record that the doglike video forensic | :50:39. | :50:41. | |
scrutiny in the House of Commons as well, it's just that we didn't win | :50:42. | :50:46. | |
any of the votes. My Honourable Friend has pre-empted me because I | :50:47. | :50:50. | |
was about congratulate as well, not just my front bench colleagues in | :50:51. | :50:54. | |
the Shadow business team for the diligent work that they have done, | :50:55. | :50:58. | |
but my colleagues in the trade union Bill committee, I followed some of | :50:59. | :51:01. | |
the sessions and read the evidence, it was forensic scrutiny and the | :51:02. | :51:04. | |
argument is that not stack up. Many of us have come to this jibber time | :51:05. | :51:08. | |
and time again to get the Government to rethink. They have done some | :51:09. | :51:14. | |
rethinking and I share my Honourable Friend's cynicism that this probably | :51:15. | :51:17. | |
has more to do with the fact that the penny has dropped for the Prime | :51:18. | :51:21. | |
Minister and he has US trade unions not only play an important role in | :51:22. | :51:25. | |
the workplace, they play an important part in the life of our | :51:26. | :51:30. | |
democracy and he is probably peak -- counting news trading is to make the | :51:31. | :51:34. | |
positive case for the UK remaining in the European Union. Many the | :51:35. | :51:38. | |
rights they have would not be enjoyed for -- but for the pressure | :51:39. | :51:44. | |
that the changing bring to bear. We should celebrate the work of trade | :51:45. | :51:48. | |
Unions, enter this Treaty or denigration of the work of trade | :51:49. | :51:52. | |
unions and this Bill should not be supported. | :51:53. | :52:03. |