27/04/2016 House of Commons


27/04/2016

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than we said at a lecture on time and it is very necessary because

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these people have suffered through no fault of their own.

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Order. Secretary of State for the Home Department.

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The Home Secretary, Theresa May. Thank you, Mr Speaker. And with

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permission, I would like to make a statement on the Hillsborough

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stadium disaster. The determinations and findings of the fresh inquests

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presided over by Sir John Goldring and the steps that will now take

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place. Mr Speaker, 27 years ago, the terrible events of Saturday the 15th

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of April 1989 shocked this country and devastated the community. That

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afternoon, as thousands of fans were preparing to watch the FA Cup

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semifinal, between Liverpool and Nottingham Forest, a crush developed

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in the central pens of the Lebens Lane terrace. 96 men, women and

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children lost their lives as a result. Hundreds more were injured

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and many were left traumatised. It was this countries worst disaster at

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a sporting event. For the families and survivors, the search to get to

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the truth of what happened on that day has been long and arduous. They

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observed the judicial enquiry led by Lord Justice Taylor, they gave

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evidence to the original inquests, which recorded a verdict of

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accidental death, they have seen further scrutiny, reviews and a

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private prosecution. They suffered the injustice of hearing the

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victims, their loved ones, and fellow supporters, being blamed.

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They have heard the shocking conclusions of the Hillsborough

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Independent panel and they have now, once again, given evidence to the

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fresh inquests Poseidon over by Sir John Goldring. I have met members of

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the Hillsborough families on numbers occasions. And in their search for

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truth and justice, I have never failed to be struck by the

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extraordinary dignity and determination. I do not think it is

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possible for any of us to truly understand what they have been

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through. Not only in losing their loved ones in such horrific

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circumstances that day, but to hear finding after finding over 27 years,

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telling them something that they believed to be fundamentally untrue.

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They have quite simply never given up. I would also like to take this

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opportunity to pay tribute to the Right Honourable member who has

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campaigned so tirelessly over the years on their behalf. And also the

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Honourable member for Liverpool, Garston in Hillwood, Paulton,

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Liverpool Riverside and Wirral South. Yesterday the fresh inquest

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into the deaths at Hillsborough gave its determinations and findings, its

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establishment following the report of the Hillsborough Independent

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panel chaired by a ship James Jones, the contents of the report was so

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significant that it led to the new inquests and two new major criminal

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investigations, one by the independent piece combines

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commission, examining the actions of the police in the aftermath of

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Hillsborough, and a second criminal investigation operating result led

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by John Stoller the former Chief Constable of Durham. Since the fresh

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inquests opened in Warrington on the 31st of March 2014, the jury has

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heard 296 days of evidence. It ran for more than two years. It was the

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longest running inquest in British legal history. I am sure the whole

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House will want to join me in thanking the jury for the important

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task it has undertaken and the significant civic duty the jurors

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have performed. Mr Speaker, I will turn out to the Jewish

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determinations and findings. In its deliberations, the jury was asked to

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answer 14 general questions covering the role of South Yorkshire Police,

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the South Yorkshire Metropolitan Ambulance Service, Sheffield

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Wednesday football club, and Hillsborough stadium 's engineers,

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Eastwood and partners. In addition, the jury was also required to answer

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two questions specific to each of the individual deceased, relating to

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the time and medical cause of their death. I would like to put on record

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the jury's determinations in full. They are as follows. Question one,

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do you agree with the following statement which is intended to

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summarise the basic facts of the disaster? 96 people died as a result

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of the disaster at Hillsborough stadium on the 15th of April 1989

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due to crashing in a central pens of the lettings Lane terrace. Following

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the admission of a large number of supporters to the stadium to exit

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gates? Yes. Question two. Was there any error or admission in police

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planning and preparation for the semifinal match on the 15th of April

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1989 which caused or contributed to the dangerous situation that

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developed on the day of the match? Yes. Was there any error or

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admission in policing on the day of the match which caused or

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contributed to a dangerous situation developing at the lettings Lane

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turnstiles? Yes. Was there any error or admission by commanding officers

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which caused or contributed to the crush on the terrace? Yes. When the

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order was given to open the exit gates at the lettings Lane end of

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the stadium, was there any error or admission I the commanding officers

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in the control box which caused or contributed to the crash on the

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terrace? Yes. Are you satisfied so that you are

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sure that those who died in the disaster work unlawfully killed?

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Yes. Was there any behaviour on the part of football supporters which

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caused or contributed to the dangerous situation at the Leppings

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Lane turnstiles? No. Further to that question, was there any behaviour on

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the part of football supporters which may have caused or contributed

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to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles? No. Were

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there any features of the design, construction, and layout of the

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stadium which you consider word dangerous or defective and which

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caused or contributed to the disaster? Yes. Was there any error

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or omission in the safety certification and oversight of

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Hillsborough stadium that caused or contributed to the disaster? Yes.

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Was there any error or omission by Sheffield Wednesday Football Club

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and its staff in the management of the stadium and - our preparation

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for the semifinal match on the 15th of April 1989, which caused or

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contributed to the dangerous situation which developed on the day

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of the match? Yes. Was there any error or omission by Sheffield

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Wednesday Football Club and its staff on the 15th of April 1989

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which caused or contributed to the dangerous situation that developed

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at the Leppings Lane turnstiles and in the West Terrace? No. Further to

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that question, whether any error or omission by Sheffield Wednesday

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Football Club and its staff on the 15th of April 1989 which have caused

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or contributed to the dangerous situation that developed at the

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Leppings Lane turnstiles and in the West Terrace? Yes. Should Eastwood

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Partners have done more to detect and advise on any unsafe or

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unsatisfactory features of Hillsborough stadium, which caused

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or contributed to the disaster? Yes. After the crash in the West Terrace

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had begun to develop, was there any error or omission by the police

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which caused or contributed to the loss of lives in the disaster? Yes.

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After the crush in the West Terrace had begun to develop, was that any

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error or omission by the Ambulance Service which caused or contributed

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to the loss of lives in the disaster? Yes. Finally, the jury

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also recorded the cause and time of death for each of the 96 men, women,

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and children who died at Hillsborough. In all but one case,

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the jury have recorded a time bracket running beyond the 3:15pm

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cut-off point adopted by the coroner at the original inquests. These

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determinations were published yesterday by the coroner, and I

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would urge the reading of each and every part in order to fully

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understand the outcome of the inquests. The jury also heard

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evidence about the valiant efforts made by many of the fans to rescue

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those caught up in the crush. There are public spiritedness is to be

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commended, and I'm sure that the house will want to take this

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opportunity to recognise what they did in those terrible circumstances.

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Clearly, the jury's determination that those who died were unlawfully

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killed is of great public importance. It overturns in the

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starkest way possible the verdict of accidental death returned at the

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original inquests. However, the jury's findings do not, of course,

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and up to a finding of criminal liability and no one should impute

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criminal liability to anyone while the ongoing investigations are still

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pending. Elsewhere, the jury noted that commanding officers should have

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ordered the closure of the central tunnel before the opening of deep

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sea was requested as pens three and four were full. They should have

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established the number of fans still to enter the stadium as the 3:30

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p.m., and they feel to it recognise that the three and four pens were at

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capacity. While the inquests have concluded, this is not the end of

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the process. The decision about whether any criminal prosecution or

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prosecutions can be brought forward will be made by the Crown

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Prosecution Service on the basis of evidence gathered as part of the two

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ongoing investigations. That decision is not constrained in any

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way by the jury's conclusions. The house will understand that I cannot

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comment in detail on matters that may lead to a criminal

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investigation. I can, however, say that the offences under

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investigation include gross negligence manslaughter, misconduct

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in public office, perverting the course of justice, and perjury, as

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well as offences under the safety of sports ground act 1975 and the

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health and safety at work act 1974. I know that those responsible for

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the police and IPCC investigations anticipate that they will conclude

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the criminal investigations by the turn of the year. We must allow them

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to complete their work in a timely and thorough manner. And we must be

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mindful not to prejudice the outcome in any way. I have always been clear

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that the Government will support the families in their quest for justice,

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so throughout the ongoing investigations we will ensure that

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support remains in place in three ways. First, the family forums,

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which have provided the families with the regular and structured

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means of engaging with the investigative teams and the CPS will

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continue. They will remain under Bishop Jones chairmanship in a

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similar format, but they will reflect the fact that they will be

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operating after the inquests. The CPS, the IPCC, and operation resolve

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will remain part of the forums. Secondly, now that the inquests have

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concluded, it is the intention to reconstitute the Hillsborough

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article to reference group whose work has been in billions during the

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course of the inquests under revised of reference. -- abeyance. Thirdly,

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we want to ensure that the legal representation scheme for the

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bereaved families continues. This was put in place with funding from

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the Government, following the original inquest verdicts being

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quashed. Discussions are currently taking place with the family's legal

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representations to see how best the skin can be continued. In addition,

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I am keen that we understand and learn from the experiences of the

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families, and they have therefore has to Bishop James to write a

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report which draws on these experiences. This report will be

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published in due course to ensure that the full perspective of those

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most affected by the Hillsborough disaster is not lost. I would also

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like to express my thanks to Bishop James, again for his invaluable

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advice over the years. There is further work to be done, so I have

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asked Bishop James to remain as my advisor, and I'm pleased to say that

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he has agreed to do so. Mr Speaker, the conclusion of the inquests

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brings to an end an important step since the publication of

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Hillsborough Independent panel's report. Thanks to that report, and

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now the determinations of the inquests, we know the truth of what

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happened on that day in Hillsborough. Naturally, the

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families will want to reflect on yesterday's historic outcome, which

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is of national significance. I am also clear that this raises

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significant issues for the way that the state and its agencies deal with

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disasters. Once the formal investigations are concluded, we

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should step back, reflect, and act if necessary so that we can better

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respond to disasters and ensure that the suffering of families is taken

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into account. But I want to end by saying this. For 27 years, the

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families and survivors of Hillsborough have fought for

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justice. They have faced hostility, opposition, and of the station. And

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the authorities that should have been trusted have laid blame and

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tried to protect themselves. -- obfuscation. Instead of acting in

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the public interest. But the families have never faltered in

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their pursuit of the truth. Thanks to their actions, they have brought

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about a proper reinvestigation and a thorough re-evaluation of what

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happened at Hillsborough. That they have done so is extraordinary. I am

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sure the whole house will want to join me in paying tribute to their

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courage, determination, and resolve. And we should also remember those

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who have sadly passed away while still waiting for justice. No wonder

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should have to endure what the families and survivors have been

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through. No one should have discovered the loss of their loved

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ones through such appalling circumstances, and no one should

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have to fight year after year after year, decade after decade, in search

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of the trip. I hope that for the families and survivors who have been

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through such difficult times, yesterday's determinations will

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bring them closer towards the peace they have been so long denied. I

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commend this statement to the house. Andy Burnham. Thank you, Mr Speaker.

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I thank the Home Secretary for her powerful statement and for her kind

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words. At long last, just as for the 96, for their families, for all

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Liverpool supporters, for an entire city, but it took too long in

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coming, and the struggle for it took too great a toll on too many. Now

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those responsible must be held to account for 96 unlawful deaths and

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48 27 year cover-up. Thankfully, the jury saw through the life, and I'm

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sure, repeating what my honourable friend said, the Home Secretary,

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that this house will join me in thanking the jury for their devotion

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to this task and in giving two years of their lives to this important

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public duty. When it came, their verdict was simple, clear, powerful

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and emphatic. But it begs the question, how can something so

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obvious had taken so long? Three reasons. First, a police force which

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has consistently put protecting itself against over and above

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protecting people harmed by Hillsborough. Second, collusion

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between that force and a complicit print media. Third, a flawed

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judicial system that gives the upper hand to those in authority over and

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above ordinary people. Let me take each of those issues in turn.

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Starting with the South Yorkshire Police. Can the Home Secretary

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assure me that there will be no holding back in pursuing

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prosecutions? The CPS has said that files will be submitted by December.

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We understand the complexity, but can she urge them to do whatever

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they can to bring that date forward? Of course, the behaviour of some

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officers, while reprehensible, was not necessarily chargeable, but

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through retirement, police officers can still escape misconduct

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proceedings. In her policing and crime Bill, the Home Secretary

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proposes a 12 month period after retirement where proceedings can be

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initiated, but one of the lessons of Hillsborough, Mr Speaker, is that

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there can be no arbitrary time limits on justice and

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accountability, so will the Home Secretary work with me to it insert

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a Hillsborough claws into her bill, ending the scandal of retirement as

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an escape route, and of wrongdoers claiming full pensions, and will she

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join me in making sure it applies retrospectively? The much bigger

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question for the South Yorkshire Police to answer today is this. Why,

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at this inquest, did they go back on their 2012 public apology? When the

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Lord Chief Justice quashed the original inquest, he requested that

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the new one is not degenerate into an adversarial battle. Sadly, Mr

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Speaker, that is exactly what happened. Shamefully, the cover-up

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continued in this Warrington courtroom. Millions of pounds of

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public money was spent retelling discredited lies against Liverpool

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supporters. Lawyers for retired officers through disgusting slur is

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around. Those for today's for a strike to establish that others were

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responsible for the opening of the gate. If the police had chosen to

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maintain its apology, this inquest would have been much shorter, but

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they didn't and they put the families through hell once again. It

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pains me to say it, but the NHS, through the Yorkshire Ambulance

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Service, was guilty of the same. Does the Home Secretary agree that

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because of his handling of this inquest, the position of the South

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Yorkshire Chief Constable is now untenable? Does she further agree

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that the problems go deeper? I honestly families the full truth

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about Hillsborough. I don't believe they will have it until we know the

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truth about him. This forces the same underhand tactics against its

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own people in the aftermath of the minor's strike that it would later

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use to more deadly effect against the people of Liverpool. There has

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been an IPCC report, that part of it are redacted.

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This is a time for transparency not seek and see. Time for the people of

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South Yorkshire to know the full truth about their police force. So

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will the Home Secretary accept the legal submission from the truth and

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justice campaign and set up a disclosure process? This force has

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not learned and has not changed. Let me be clear. I don't blame the

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ordinary police officers, the men and women who did their very best on

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that day. And who today are out there keeping our streets safe. But

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I do blame their leadership and culture which seems rotten to the

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core. Hillsborough, rather, how much more evidence to be needed before we

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act? Will the Home Secretary ordered a fundamental reform of this force

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and consider all potential options? Let me turn to collusion between

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police and the media. The malicious briefings given in the aftermath

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were devastatingly efficient, creating a false version of events

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which lingered until yesterday. No one in the police or media has ever

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been held to account for the incalculable harm they caused the

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whole city, smearing it in its greatest moments agree. Imagine my

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constituent who came through gate to see just before 3pm with his friend

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Carl Brown, who died but Lee survived. Days later he had to read

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that he was to blame. Given the weakness of the press regulatory

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system back then, the survivors had no ability of two correct the lies

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and is it any different today? Ever tragedy like Hillsborough were to

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happen now, victims would not be able quickly to undo the damage of a

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misleading front page. Levinson second stage enquiry to look at the

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sometimes unhealthy relationship between police and press. I know the

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Hillsborough families feel strongly that this should be taken forward,

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so will the Government end the delay and on the Prime Minister's promises

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to the victims of press intrusion? I'd turn to the judicial system. I

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have attended this inquest on many occasions, I saw how hard it was for

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the families, trapped for two years in a temporary courtroom, told to

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show no emotion as police lawyers smeared the dead and those who

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survived, yonder cruel. And I welcome Bishop James' new role in

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explaining just how cruel this was to the House and to the country. The

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original inquest was similarly brutal. That didn't even get to the

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truth. Just as the first inquest muddied the water after the clarity

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of the Taylor report, so this inquest at moments lost sight of the

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Hillsborough Independent panel report. One of the reasons why

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produced a different outcome though is because this time the families

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have the best lawyers in the land. If they could have afforded them

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back in 1990, history might have been very different. At many

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inquests today there is often a mismatch between the legal

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representation of public bodies and those of the bereaved. Why should

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the authorities be able to spend public money like water to protect

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themselves when families have no such help? So will the Government

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consider further reforms to the system including giving the bereaved

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and least equal legal funding as public bodies? This, the longest

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case in English legal history, must mark a watershed in how victims are

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treated. The last question is for us in this House. What kind of country

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leaves people who did no more than wave off their loved ones to a

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football match still sitting in a court room 27 years later begging

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for the reputations of their sons, daughters, brothers, sisters and

:25:25.:25:29.

fathers? The answer is one that needs now to do some deep

:25:30.:25:33.

soul-searching. This cover-up went right to the top. It was advanced in

:25:34.:25:38.

the committee rooms of this House and in the press room is of ten

:25:39.:25:43.

Downing St. It persisted because of collusion between elite in politics

:25:44.:25:49.

on both sides, police and the media. But this Home Secretary stood

:25:50.:25:58.

outside of that and today I express my sincere admiration and gratitude

:25:59.:26:02.

to her for the stance she has consistently taken in writing this

:26:03.:26:10.

wrong. But my final words go to the Hillsborough families. I think of

:26:11.:26:15.

those who did not live to see this day. Of the courageous and Williams,

:26:16.:26:24.

of my constituent Stephen Whittle, the 97th victim, who gave his own

:26:25.:26:28.

ticket to a friend on the morning of the match and later took his own

:26:29.:26:34.

life. I think people like Phil Hammond, who sacrificed his own

:26:35.:26:39.

health to this struggle. I think of the many people who died from

:26:40.:26:44.

outside Merseyside recognising that this was not just Liverpool's but

:26:45.:26:50.

the country's tragedy. I think of Lee Brown and his devoted mum,

:26:51.:26:54.

Delia, is still visit his grave most days. I think of Trevor and Jenny

:26:55.:26:58.

Hicks, and their heartbreaking testimony to the new inquest. But I

:26:59.:27:03.

think most of my friend Margaret Aspinall, she did not just sacrifice

:27:04.:27:09.

everything for her own son, James, she took on a heavy burden of

:27:10.:27:13.

fighting for everyone else's loved ones and by God, didn't she do them

:27:14.:27:18.

proud Western Mark editing the privilege of my life to work with

:27:19.:27:21.

them all. They have prevailed against all the odds. They have kept

:27:22.:27:28.

their dignity in face of terrible adversity, they could not have shown

:27:29.:27:31.

a more profound love for those they lost on that day, they truly

:27:32.:27:36.

represent the best of what a la country is all about. Now it must

:27:37.:27:42.

reflect on how we let them down for so long.

:27:43.:27:46.

APPLAUSE Home Secretary.

:27:47.:27:54.

Thank you, Mr Speaker. Can I thank the writable gentleman for his

:27:55.:28:00.

words. And particularly for his kind words in relation to myself, but can

:28:01.:28:05.

I, as I said in my opening statement, once again commend him

:28:06.:28:09.

for the way in which he has stood by the families for so long and carried

:28:10.:28:14.

their cause in this House and indeed in Government when he was in

:28:15.:28:19.

Government. Can I just reflect, I will respond to some of his specific

:28:20.:28:24.

points, but the end point that he made, it is absolutely right and

:28:25.:28:29.

this was reflected in the statement that my right honourable friend the

:28:30.:28:33.

Prime Minister made after the independent panel's report came out,

:28:34.:28:41.

that what the families faced was a combination of the state in all its

:28:42.:28:45.

various forms, not believing them, and all the various attempts to

:28:46.:28:51.

cover up what had really happened. Together with other agencies, the

:28:52.:28:55.

media and others, and indeed, dare I say it, most of the general public

:28:56.:29:00.

who believe the stories that they read about the fans. To have stood

:29:01.:29:11.

against that for so long shows a steel and determination but also an

:29:12.:29:19.

affection for the lost loved ones and a passionate desire for justice

:29:20.:29:27.

on behalf of those who died that is, as I said, extraordinary, and I

:29:28.:29:31.

think we will rarely see the light again. On the individual questions,

:29:32.:29:36.

the writable gentleman asked me about the time for the files to be

:29:37.:29:43.

prepared by the two investigations. They've do, both say, operation

:29:44.:29:49.

resolve and IPCC, they expect to have a case filed by the end of the

:29:50.:29:53.

year. I recognised for the families, this is a featherweight and it will

:29:54.:29:56.

then be a period of time for the CPS to consider more. I think everybody

:29:57.:30:02.

recognises including those bodies, because of course they do interact

:30:03.:30:06.

with the families through the family forums, the importance of doing this

:30:07.:30:09.

in a timely fashion but also important it's done properly. And

:30:10.:30:14.

thoroughly. I don't want to see anything in the way of that being

:30:15.:30:17.

done in the right way. On the retirement of police officers, I've

:30:18.:30:22.

always felt it wrong police officer should avoid gross misconduct

:30:23.:30:25.

proceedings by merely retiring or resigning, that's why we changed the

:30:26.:30:28.

disciplinary arrangements and we have a clause in the police and

:30:29.:30:36.

crime Bill. We are happy to meet with him and discuss the various

:30:37.:30:47.

issues in relation to that matter. On the issue he raised about

:30:48.:30:52.

ordinary met representatives last year from the Honourable member for

:30:53.:30:57.

Sheffield and one spec, I then received a submission from Michael

:30:58.:31:02.

Mansfield QC on behalf of of the group and that is being considered.

:31:03.:31:08.

In relation to love as a two, we've always said their decision on that

:31:09.:31:12.

would be taken when the case investigations which were undertaken

:31:13.:31:17.

had been completed. There are still cases being considered so that point

:31:18.:31:23.

has not come. He talked about the families and about the inquests and

:31:24.:31:26.

the availability of funding for families at inquests. This is

:31:27.:31:29.

precisely the sort of issue I think it can be encompassed in the words

:31:30.:31:35.

Bishop James Jones, hearing from the families about the families

:31:36.:31:40.

experiences and reflecting it into Government and I think it's right

:31:41.:31:44.

and we should take a clear look at what further we need to do. I think

:31:45.:31:51.

nobody should be in any doubt the experience families had to go to at

:31:52.:31:54.

the inquests of not being able to show any emotion but I think

:31:55.:31:57.

something else that perhaps must be particularly difficult, many people

:31:58.:32:02.

for 27 years have not known what actually happened to their loved

:32:03.:32:08.

ones. They didn't know how they died or what time they died, and those

:32:09.:32:13.

details of only come through this inquest. And so it must've been

:32:14.:32:16.

particularly difficult for to sit through that but I hope that they

:32:17.:32:23.

have now found some peace through the fact that the truth has now come

:32:24.:32:33.

out. Mr Speaker, I'm very pleased that the efforts of a family -- the

:32:34.:32:39.

families and the independent review panel which did such outstanding

:32:40.:32:45.

work have contributed to the outcome which entirely vindicates the

:32:46.:32:49.

position that they had both adopted. And I'm also pleased, a small

:32:50.:32:55.

department at the time I lead, was able to play a role in bringing that

:32:56.:33:00.

about. It seems to me, Mr Speaker, the key issue is not that people are

:33:01.:33:07.

going to make mistakes because in human society mistakes are always

:33:08.:33:11.

going to be made, sometimes with catastrophic consequences, but the

:33:12.:33:14.

real issue which needs to concern this House is that, in a society

:33:15.:33:20.

which counts itself as civilised and subject to the rule of law, it

:33:21.:33:23.

appears that for such a long time it was impossible to get redress and a

:33:24.:33:29.

proper examination of the issues. This is not I regret to say a unique

:33:30.:33:34.

event. We have had other occasions in this House when we've had to

:33:35.:33:37.

consider the importation is of similar events happening in other

:33:38.:33:42.

circumstances. Bloody Sunday. It springs to mind. It seems to me the

:33:43.:33:50.

lesson that this House needs to take away is we have to subject ourselves

:33:51.:33:53.

and our institutions to quite a lot of self-examination and to maintain

:33:54.:33:58.

it if we are to ensure for the future that we do not have a

:33:59.:34:02.

reputation of this frankly deplorable episode. I'm not always

:34:03.:34:08.

sure the best way that should be done and I simply say to my right

:34:09.:34:12.

honourable friend the Home Secretary, who has done everything

:34:13.:34:14.

right in respect of this, and I commend her for the way she has

:34:15.:34:19.

approached it, but I say to her that it's not just a question of the

:34:20.:34:23.

systems we have in place but also I think some of the underlying

:34:24.:34:29.

attitudes that, when uncomfortable truths come across the horizon,

:34:30.:34:32.

there's always a temptation to try to them away because they confront

:34:33.:34:37.

us with difficulties which make us uncomfortable. And if we do that,

:34:38.:34:43.

then we can ensure that, not only can we do justice for the families

:34:44.:34:46.

in this matter, but we can also ensure that so far as is humanly

:34:47.:34:50.

possible, we don't repeat this in future. Can I thank my right

:34:51.:34:55.

honourable friend for his remarks and thank you also for the role he

:34:56.:34:59.

played in ensuring that fresh inquests could take place. And I

:35:00.:35:04.

think he's absolutely right it's not just a question of systems. It is a

:35:05.:35:09.

question of attitudes. I have seen this in other areas, too. The work

:35:10.:35:12.

that we are doing for example on deaths in custody, and hearing from

:35:13.:35:18.

families in those cases. What happens so often is that the

:35:19.:35:22.

institutions that should actually be the ones that people can trust to

:35:23.:35:28.

get to the truth, combined to protect themselves, have a natural

:35:29.:35:31.

instinct to look inwards and protect themselves rather than doing what is

:35:32.:35:35.

right in the public interest. And he's right, we can change the

:35:36.:35:40.

systems we wish to but it's about changing those attitudes and saying,

:35:41.:35:44.

actually, those institutions are there to serve the public and it is

:35:45.:35:47.

a public interest they should always put first. I should like to begin by

:35:48.:35:56.

thanking the Home Secretary for her immensely dignified and thorough

:35:57.:35:59.

statements. I should also like to welcome the jury 's determination

:36:00.:36:05.

and findings. On behalf of the Scottish National Party I would like

:36:06.:36:10.

to acknowledge the heroic struggle for justice of the friends and

:36:11.:36:13.

relatives of 96 dead and also to acknowledge the heroic struggle the

:36:14.:36:20.

Shadow Home Secretary and other people on the official opposition

:36:21.:36:24.

benches. Today we must also remember the 96 dead. Decent people from all

:36:25.:36:31.

walks of life who were failed by the police and emergency services. Who

:36:32.:36:34.

would very people who should have been able to help them in their of

:36:35.:36:36.

need. Yesterday's verdict follows 27 years

:36:37.:36:46.

of concealment of the truth, after mud slinging at innocence, I would

:36:47.:36:55.

like to state that this must rank alongside bloody Sunday as one of

:36:56.:37:00.

the most disgraceful establishment cover-ups of our time. The ruling

:37:01.:37:05.

confirms that some police officers have really -- have behaved

:37:06.:37:15.

dishonourably. They were also from the same force who so brutally

:37:16.:37:19.

repressed the minor's strike and I was very pleased to hear what the

:37:20.:37:22.

Home Secretary had to say in that regard. Will she acknowledge the

:37:23.:37:26.

impact that the behaviour of some police officers has had on public

:37:27.:37:30.

confidence in the police and assurers such actions can never

:37:31.:37:34.

happen again? Elements of the media, I am sure, will also lead a lesson

:37:35.:37:39.

from this, but as the Shadow Home Secretary said, will they ever be

:37:40.:37:43.

held to account? I think the party opposite has learned a lesson from

:37:44.:37:47.

this, because as has been said, the actions of the Home Secretary have

:37:48.:37:52.

been exemplary as compared to the attitude of the Cabinet at the time.

:37:53.:37:57.

Can she assure us that such a miscarriage of justice will never be

:37:58.:38:02.

allowed to happen a game? Because, Mr Speaker, justice delayed is

:38:03.:38:06.

justice denied. Now we have the truth, but in the wake of that trip,

:38:07.:38:11.

accountability must follow, is what happens next is crucial. Does she

:38:12.:38:16.

agree with me that where there are strongly founded allegations, that

:38:17.:38:21.

police officers may have perverted the course of justice, strongly

:38:22.:38:26.

founded allegations that police officers gave misleading information

:38:27.:38:32.

to the media, MEPs, and this Parliament, and strongly founded

:38:33.:38:35.

allegations that police officers may have perjured themselves, does she

:38:36.:38:39.

agree that appropriate action and prosecutions must be seen to follow

:38:40.:38:43.

swiftly? Mr Speaker, I would also like to echo what the Shadow Home

:38:44.:38:48.

Secretary said about concern that certain police officers avoided

:38:49.:38:51.

disciplinary action by retiring to enjoy a full pension. Will she also

:38:52.:38:56.

take steps to address matters so that this cannot happen again? And

:38:57.:39:02.

finally, Mr Speaker, I would like to welcome her intention to

:39:03.:39:04.

reconstitute the Hillsborough article to reference group. Article

:39:05.:39:09.

two of the European Convention of Human Rights. Without the Human

:39:10.:39:15.

Rights Act, are procedural obligation on the state to

:39:16.:39:18.

investigate deaths properly under Article two, this second inquest

:39:19.:39:22.

would never have happened and these families might never have got

:39:23.:39:26.

justice. Please will she and her Government bear that in mind when

:39:27.:39:32.

they consider their attitude toward human rights and the European Court

:39:33.:39:36.

of Human Rights. Thank you, Mr Speaker. On the various points that

:39:37.:39:42.

the honourable lady has raised, she raised the issue of public

:39:43.:39:45.

confidence in the police, and it is absolutely correct to say that they

:39:46.:39:50.

have shattered confidence. This was a point that was made is by the

:39:51.:39:56.

representative from the IPCC to the media yesterday, that there were

:39:57.:39:59.

people in Liverpool whose trust me please was severely damaged, if not

:40:00.:40:03.

destroyed, as a result of what they had seen. In talking about the

:40:04.:40:07.

action of police officers at Hillsborough that day, I think we

:40:08.:40:10.

should recognise that there were some officers who did actively try

:40:11.:40:15.

to help the fans and tried to do the right thing on that occasion. I am

:40:16.:40:22.

pleased to say that in terms of police response abilities and police

:40:23.:40:26.

attitudes, of course, the College of policing has now introduce a code of

:40:27.:40:30.

ethics for police. We need to make sure that that is embedded

:40:31.:40:32.

throughout our police forces, but I think this is an important step

:40:33.:40:37.

forward. She asks about the question of ensuring prosecutions where there

:40:38.:40:43.

is evidence of criminal activity. Of course, that is entirely a decision

:40:44.:40:50.

for the Crown property servers. -- for the Crown Prosecution Service.

:40:51.:40:56.

We must leave the IPCC to prepare independently. And on her final

:40:57.:41:00.

point I would simply observe that we have had the coronal process here in

:41:01.:41:05.

the UK for some considerable time and the request -- the right to

:41:06.:41:13.

request an inquest long before the European Court of Human Rights was

:41:14.:41:20.

put in place. May I also play -- paid tribute to those who've worked

:41:21.:41:22.

hard to ensure that justice was done in this case and to the Home

:41:23.:41:26.

Secretary and Shadow Home Secretary to the balanced way in which they

:41:27.:41:30.

have approached these matters. With the Home Secretary agree that it is

:41:31.:41:34.

important we do lessons, for example although the court process is

:41:35.:41:38.

inevitably stressful for victims and witnesses, as I know, none the less

:41:39.:41:41.

in this case, the coroner and the jury did their duty and proved that

:41:42.:41:46.

the jury system can be capable of grappling with the most conflicts

:41:47.:41:50.

and distressing of cases, that is to the system's credit. She also note

:41:51.:41:57.

that we need to ensure there is proper access to justice for these

:41:58.:42:01.

matters, which is fundamental to our rule of law and in relation to the

:42:02.:42:07.

very considerable volume of work and material the Crown Prosecution

:42:08.:42:11.

Service must now consider. I note some 238 police statements are said

:42:12.:42:14.

to have been altered. Dealing with that volume of material, would you

:42:15.:42:17.

perhaps discuss with the Treasury and with the Attorney General to see

:42:18.:42:24.

some funding to deal with the particular pressures of resource in

:42:25.:42:29.

the CPS could be done this in the same way it is done for the Serious

:42:30.:42:32.

Fraud Office when they have to undertake major and unexpected

:42:33.:42:35.

enquiries? I thank my honourable friend. I think you will have noted

:42:36.:42:39.

that the Attorney General is sitting on the Treasury bench and therefore

:42:40.:42:42.

will have heard the references he has made in relation to funding for

:42:43.:42:46.

this sort of case. The first bike that he made about the importance of

:42:47.:42:49.

the jury system I think is absolutely right. I think this shows

:42:50.:42:54.

the value of the jury system that we have and I repeat the comment I made

:42:55.:42:58.

my statement. I think for people on the jury to have been prepared to

:42:59.:43:03.

take years to ensure that justice was done in this case is absolutely

:43:04.:43:07.

commendable. They have shown considerable civic duty and our

:43:08.:43:15.

thanks go to them. Steve Rotherham. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Can I first

:43:16.:43:19.

of all say that the response to the statement by Mike honourable friend

:43:20.:43:25.

will reverberate throughout Merseyside and right around the

:43:26.:43:29.

country. I would also like to praise the Home Secretary for all she has

:43:30.:43:32.

done to bring about yesterday's meant his decision. Thank you from

:43:33.:43:37.

the families. On the 15th of April 1989 as fans walked away from the FA

:43:38.:43:41.

Cup final, semifinal, in Sheffield, they knew then that the disaster was

:43:42.:43:47.

not our fault. Almost immediately, however, lies and smears were being

:43:48.:43:51.

peddled within hours and orchestrated cover-up was in full

:43:52.:43:55.

swing. It's took political intervention to force the judicial

:43:56.:44:02.

process of this country 27 years to recognise what we knew on day one.

:44:03.:44:08.

That Hillsborough was not an accident. Bands did not open the

:44:09.:44:15.

gates. Drunken fans did not turn up late, hell-bent on getting in. It

:44:16.:44:23.

was not because of a drunken, tank top mob. Instead, 96 people were

:44:24.:44:29.

unlawfully killed. Those that doubt it must now recognise the true story

:44:30.:44:33.

of the efforts of my fellow supporters for their acts of

:44:34.:44:37.

self-sacrifice and heroism as they battled to save the lives of their

:44:38.:44:43.

fellow fans. And consigned it to the dustbin of history be loaded tabloid

:44:44.:44:46.

headlines that vilified them. Despite the inquest being

:44:47.:44:53.

adversarial not inquisitorial, yesterday's verdict was unequivocal.

:44:54.:44:57.

Liverpool supporters were totally absolved of any blame and did not

:44:58.:45:03.

contribute to the disaster in any way. As someone once said, I cherish

:45:04.:45:10.

the hope that as time goes on, you will recognise the truth of what I

:45:11.:45:15.

say. We'll be Home Secretary join me in paying tribute to the families,

:45:16.:45:20.

survivors, campaigners and supporters who fought for truth and

:45:21.:45:25.

justice and to the solidarity of those who stood shoulder to shoulder

:45:26.:45:29.

whether red or blue for nearly three decades and to the men and women of

:45:30.:45:32.

a proud city that never give up until it got justice for the 96. I

:45:33.:45:40.

was very happy to join the honourable gentleman in paying

:45:41.:45:43.

tribute to the families and for the way in which they kept the flame of

:45:44.:45:47.

hope for truth and justice alive over 27 years, but also to pay

:45:48.:45:51.

tribute to the city of Liverpool and the people of Liverpool, who I think

:45:52.:45:54.

we have seen and I think we will continue to see in the coming days

:45:55.:46:01.

showed a solidarity regardless, as he said, of their affiliations

:46:02.:46:06.

footballing terms, they recognise the injustice that was done and they

:46:07.:46:09.

came together and they supported the families and the trip has now been

:46:10.:46:18.

found. I think that we can learn from the honourable gentleman when

:46:19.:46:20.

he raised the question of the Stephen Lawrence police

:46:21.:46:24.

investigation and others. When people come to Parliament either as

:46:25.:46:32.

members of professional services or not and there is some kind of a

:46:33.:46:36.

cover-up going on, we hope that the leaders of these professional

:46:37.:46:38.

services such as the police and the NHS will pay attention when it is

:46:39.:46:51.

said that action needs to be taken. With the actions that happened that

:46:52.:46:55.

Hillsborough, the mistakes, and then worse of all was the cover-up. How

:46:56.:47:00.

can over 200 statements by police be changed presumably in the police

:47:01.:47:03.

service without people being able to say to members of Parliament this is

:47:04.:47:07.

wrong. There is a cover-up and it needs turning over and investigating

:47:08.:47:14.

and brought out into intelligent transparency. I think that is the

:47:15.:47:18.

lesson from now on. Mike honourable friend makes a very important point

:47:19.:47:22.

and of course he himself has also been as a member of this house is

:47:23.:47:25.

somebody who has taken forward causes that others have found and

:47:26.:47:32.

stood against and tried to resist and has been successful in some of

:47:33.:47:39.

those. But he is absolutely right. I think it is astonishing that the,

:47:40.:47:44.

and this is what came out of the independent panel report, I think

:47:45.:47:46.

people were truly shocked by the fact that they have heard that

:47:47.:47:51.

statements had been altered and that the in order to show a different

:47:52.:47:55.

picture of what had happened from what had actually happened. That is

:47:56.:47:57.

appalling and it should never happen again. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Can I

:47:58.:48:04.

put the record my thanks to be Home Secretary and also for her

:48:05.:48:07.

statements, but also for the magnificent courage and

:48:08.:48:09.

steadfastness of the families of the 96 and the campaign that they

:48:10.:48:14.

created. After the 2000 and publication of the independent panel

:48:15.:48:20.

report, I re-read my match day programme for the 15th of April

:48:21.:48:24.

1989, and I was struck by the comment from the chairman of

:48:25.:48:27.

Sheffield Wednesday Football Club. He said, as you look around

:48:28.:48:30.

Hillsborough, you will appreciate why it has been regarded as long as

:48:31.:48:33.

the perfect venue for all kinds of matches. If you statements, I think,

:48:34.:48:40.

which underlined a complacency and total disregard for the safety of

:48:41.:48:45.

football supporters. I want to bring my question to two points. One,

:48:46.:48:48.

going back to what the honourable member said which is regarding the

:48:49.:48:54.

current Chief Constable of South Yorkshire Police. Is she aware that

:48:55.:48:59.

the statement he made in 2012, apologising to fans, is still on the

:49:00.:49:03.

website and that he said he was profoundly sorry for the way the

:49:04.:49:07.

force had failed and doubly sorry for the injustice that followed, and

:49:08.:49:12.

yet we had a representative of the police going over the same argument

:49:13.:49:17.

to gain. My final point is to focus on the South Yorkshire Police and it

:49:18.:49:21.

is about the West Midlands Police because they were responsible for

:49:22.:49:24.

the investigation. As we've seen from the result yesterday, it was a

:49:25.:49:28.

sham. It was complacent and a complete waste of time. Issue doing

:49:29.:49:33.

to make sure that they are accountable for what they did? --

:49:34.:49:37.

what is she doing. I think the comment that the honourable

:49:38.:49:40.

gentleman raised that was in the programme for the day. In a sense,

:49:41.:49:44.

as he said, it shows the extraordinary complacency that was

:49:45.:49:48.

around and as I indicated in my statement, there were several

:49:49.:49:50.

questions that related not just to Sheffield Wednesday Football Club

:49:51.:49:53.

but also to the engineers who designed the stadium and the jury

:49:54.:49:57.

were very clear that there were problems with the design of the

:49:58.:50:01.

stadium and with the certification process and I think there are some

:50:02.:50:05.

very real questions for those in authority who allowed a game to take

:50:06.:50:12.

place in a ground which had those particular problems. Obviously, the

:50:13.:50:16.

IPCC is looking at the question of the aftermath of the events that

:50:17.:50:21.

took place. Operation resolve is looking at the lead up to the depths

:50:22.:50:27.

of the 96 men, women and children, but in doing that, there will be

:50:28.:50:34.

look at the work of police officers and I can assure the honourable

:50:35.:50:37.

gentleman that evidence that has been taking, my understanding is

:50:38.:50:41.

that obviously this will cover things that have been done by West

:50:42.:50:44.

Midlands as well is Yorkshire police. I would like to begin by

:50:45.:50:49.

paying tribute to my right honourable friend and to the

:50:50.:50:52.

honourable gentleman and particularly to the families of the

:50:53.:50:58.

96 victims for the Herculean efforts in bringing about the result we saw

:50:59.:51:02.

the other day. Does my honourable friend agree with me that there were

:51:03.:51:08.

slurs made against the families. These work and injustice and it is

:51:09.:51:12.

right now that they are recognised as smears. My honourable friend is

:51:13.:51:18.

absolutely right and of course those slurs continued. They were not just

:51:19.:51:23.

at the time. They continued for far too long and it is a further

:51:24.:51:31.

injustice that the families had to endure and the supporters had to

:51:32.:51:34.

endure, not just the terrible tragedy of the day itself, but the

:51:35.:51:37.

fact that they were consistently blamed for something which was not

:51:38.:51:42.

their fault. And the verdict that came out yesterday was absolutely

:51:43.:51:46.

clear. The fans did not contribute to this disaster. The inquest

:51:47.:51:56.

verdicts proclaim the truth. And expose the deceit including the

:51:57.:52:03.

wicked lie that the fans were responsible for their own deaths.

:52:04.:52:06.

And we should never, ever forget that the truth has only been finally

:52:07.:52:12.

exposed because of the commitment of the bereaved families, supported by

:52:13.:52:19.

the city of Liverpool, whatever the rest of the country might have

:52:20.:52:23.

thought, in their determined campaign for truth, and I to thank

:52:24.:52:28.

the Home Secretary and the former Attorney General for the decisive

:52:29.:52:30.

steps that were taking is making sure that justice has now come out.

:52:31.:52:36.

But I would like to ask the Home Secretary, following her very

:52:37.:52:43.

supportive comments about the steps she intends to take forward in

:52:44.:52:48.

support of the families, as we move from exposure of the truth to

:52:49.:52:52.

accountability, will she do all within our power to ensure that now

:52:53.:52:55.

we have the truth, real accountability will follow? Yes. I

:52:56.:53:02.

thank the honourable lady for her comments and she is absolutely

:53:03.:53:05.

right. The city of Liverpool stood by the families, when the rest of

:53:06.:53:08.

the country actually took a different view as to what had

:53:09.:53:13.

happened in that terrible tragedy. I am very clear that we need to ensure

:53:14.:53:19.

that the proper processes are followed for the investigations and

:53:20.:53:23.

for the Crown Prosecution Service's decisions as to whether criminal

:53:24.:53:25.

charges should be brought, because that issue of whether truth was

:53:26.:53:33.

there and with the verdicts, justice has been seen with the verdict that

:53:34.:53:39.

came out and accountability is the next step and that of course rests

:53:40.:53:42.

with the independent investigations and the CPS.

:53:43.:54:02.

The strength of the families makes me proud to be a Scouser. There is

:54:03.:54:07.

talk of justice. I don't think it has taken -- it should have taken 27

:54:08.:54:12.

years by the fans to be found not guilty. The city and the fans were

:54:13.:54:18.

kicked when they were on their lowest. The Home Secretary agrees

:54:19.:54:24.

that justice starts when the individuals responsible are

:54:25.:54:29.

personally prosecuted. I thank my honourable friend for his comments

:54:30.:54:33.

and he is writes and it must be very difficult for the families, but have

:54:34.:54:42.

kept true to their cause and to their belief in the reality of what

:54:43.:54:46.

happened at the Hillsborough stadium in 1989. They must have felt, I

:54:47.:54:52.

think, terrible when they had been kicked to constantly over those 27

:54:53.:54:53.

years. This isn't just about finding the

:54:54.:55:01.

truth but about accountability as I've just indicated in response to

:55:02.:55:06.

the previous question. That process of accountability is now in the

:55:07.:55:10.

hands of the two criminal investigations and the Crown

:55:11.:55:16.

Prosecution Service. The inquest findings were very clear that on the

:55:17.:55:20.

day of the disaster, South Yorkshire Police failed completely in a number

:55:21.:55:25.

of respects. What is even more alarming is attempts to cover up

:55:26.:55:30.

those failings afterwards. Can I reflect on what my right honourable

:55:31.:55:33.

friend said from the front bench that this should not in any way

:55:34.:55:38.

reflect on the work that the ordinary officers of South Yorkshire

:55:39.:55:41.

Police are doing on a day-to-day basis, very important work for the

:55:42.:55:45.

security and safety of my residence in South Yorkshire. We'll Home

:55:46.:55:51.

Secretary offer complete support to the PCC in South Yorkshire to take

:55:52.:55:55.

the force through a very difficult time, recognising that the complete

:55:56.:56:00.

command structure of the force will change during the course of the next

:56:01.:56:03.

year and we'll need every bit of outside support we can get from the

:56:04.:56:08.

Home Secretary and others. Can I thank the honourable gentleman for

:56:09.:56:13.

his comments and he's absolutely right, we should recognise the work

:56:14.:56:17.

done on a daily basis day by South Yorkshire Police officers to keep

:56:18.:56:20.

their communities safe and cut crime. Could I also take this

:56:21.:56:22.

opportunity in response to him to opportunity in response to him to

:56:23.:56:26.

recognise in this House the support that was given by people living in

:56:27.:56:32.

Sheffield to those fans and others who suffered from this tragedy on

:56:33.:56:37.

the day. And he's right that South Yorkshire Police force is a force

:56:38.:56:45.

which has not just been dealing with the outcome of the Hillsborough

:56:46.:56:49.

findings, of course we've also seen issues around the Rotherham report

:56:50.:56:55.

am a number of issues around South Yorkshire force, he asks me to

:56:56.:56:58.

provide support to the police and crime commission are of course. Next

:56:59.:57:02.

week, the people of the South Yorkshire force area will be going

:57:03.:57:06.

to the polls to elect the Police and Crime Commissioner for the next four

:57:07.:57:12.

years. But of course, we will be talking to the Police and Crime

:57:13.:57:16.

Commissioner thereafter and achieve comes to about the future of the

:57:17.:57:20.

force but it is for those two individuals primarily to look-up the

:57:21.:57:24.

structures they need to ensure the fourth is doing the job it needs to

:57:25.:57:30.

do on a daily basis. I commend the Home Secretary and most certainly

:57:31.:57:34.

commend the right horrible member for league for what they've done in

:57:35.:57:38.

this and all the members from Liverpool who are taking part in

:57:39.:57:43.

debates -- league. Everyone knows my connection with football and what

:57:44.:57:46.

happened on this particular day which I've demonstrated in this

:57:47.:57:50.

House. Football suffered massively on that horrible day, the family of

:57:51.:57:56.

football looked upon that tragedy and it changed many things from

:57:57.:58:01.

stadium safety to how things are policed around football games. But I

:58:02.:58:07.

do fear coming here that the one group of people, cultures that

:58:08.:58:13.

exists in South Yorkshire, in the police force, by statement on its

:58:14.:58:18.

website and indeed statements its making, that still has not learnt

:58:19.:58:23.

all the lessons from that tragedy all that time ago. I wonder if Home

:58:24.:58:27.

Secretary could comment on what's going on in South Yorkshire and its

:58:28.:58:32.

police force at this point in time? I have to say to my honourable

:58:33.:58:38.

friend that I think everybody will be disappointed and indeed concerned

:58:39.:58:43.

by some of the remarks being made by South Yorkshire Police today. There

:58:44.:58:47.

was a very clear verdict yesterday in relation to the decisions that

:58:48.:58:54.

were taken by police officers and the action of police officers on the

:58:55.:58:59.

15th of April 1989 and I would urge South Yorkshire Police force to

:59:00.:59:05.

recognise the verdict of the jury. Yes, they must get on with the

:59:06.:59:10.

day-to-day job today policing within their force area. But I think they

:59:11.:59:13.

do need to look at what happened, at what the verdicts have shown,

:59:14.:59:20.

recognise the truth and be willing to accept that. Maria Eagle. I would

:59:21.:59:28.

like to thank the Home Secretary for a statement and in particular for a

:59:29.:59:32.

decision when she came into office in 2010 to allow the work of the

:59:33.:59:36.

Hillsborough Independent panel to continue. That has been absolutely

:59:37.:59:40.

crucial in this outcome for the one I was first elected in 1997, my

:59:41.:59:46.

constituents Phil Hammond, Doreen Jones and Jenny Hicks with some of

:59:47.:59:49.

the first people to come to see me. They were then part of the executive

:59:50.:59:55.

of the Hillsborough Family Support Group. Between them they lost five

:59:56.:59:59.

family members and they came to see me about the disaster. I campaigned

:00:00.:00:03.

with them ever since to have the truth acknowledged and to have

:00:04.:00:12.

justice done because we all knew the truth. It just seems to be the legal

:00:13.:00:16.

system in this country and I speak as a lawyer, that has been unable to

:00:17.:00:22.

get to the truth and accept the truth. For 27 years it's failed of

:00:23.:00:26.

them at every turn. Almost everything that could go wrong in a

:00:27.:00:32.

legal case has gone wrong. In those 27 years. Yesterday, it finally did

:00:33.:00:37.

its job but it has more to do I think to hold to account those who

:00:38.:00:41.

we now know for absolute certain seats are responsible and she has

:00:42.:00:45.

more to do I think to deal with the appalling culture and behaviour of

:00:46.:00:49.

South Yorkshire Police, which has persisted to this day. Mr Speaker,

:00:50.:00:56.

this disaster was filmed live and shown on television. Within months

:00:57.:01:03.

the interim report of the Taylor enquiry put the blame squarely where

:01:04.:01:09.

it actually lay. It didn't get everything right but it was

:01:10.:01:13.

substantially correct. Yet, for 27 years, the families of those who

:01:14.:01:18.

died have had to come every day, defended the reputations of their

:01:19.:01:24.

lost loved ones and of their friends and people who live in Liverpool who

:01:25.:01:30.

have been blamed for what happened. It's only the panel taking it out of

:01:31.:01:35.

the legal system that has led to that she's being acknowledged more

:01:36.:01:39.

widely than it was known and it then being fed back into the legal

:01:40.:01:44.

system. There is a deep issue here about the legal system, so will she

:01:45.:01:49.

now commit to supporting Lord Michael Wills's Public advocate Bill

:01:50.:01:53.

to ensure that the victims are public disasters, and there will be

:01:54.:01:57.

more in future, it never regain forced to spend decades of their

:01:58.:02:05.

life fighting smears, lies, official denials, indifference and cover-ups

:02:06.:02:09.

from public authorities. We have to make sure this can never ever happen

:02:10.:02:17.

again. The honourable lady is right that we need to stand back and ask

:02:18.:02:21.

what it is about our system that enabled this to happen and enabled

:02:22.:02:25.

people to suffer over those 27 years in this way. One of the reasons I

:02:26.:02:32.

asked Bishop James Jones to work with the families to hear from them

:02:33.:02:36.

their experiences is to try to learn from that and see what steps we need

:02:37.:02:42.

to take in response to that. But I think one of the things that has

:02:43.:02:46.

come out of this is that that panel model I think is a model that can be

:02:47.:02:50.

used elsewhere. If the model which I have indeed used with fewer members

:02:51.:02:55.

in relation to the necessity of looking into the killing of Daniel

:02:56.:03:00.

Morgan. Where, again, the legal system to a number of cases is

:03:01.:03:04.

failed to get to the truth. And I think it is a method and a model

:03:05.:03:11.

that we could see being used on other occasions in the future. I

:03:12.:03:16.

congratulate my right honourable friend for the statement she has

:03:17.:03:22.

made today. It is painfully clear that for over 20 years, honourable

:03:23.:03:25.

members in this place did not take the opportunities that were

:03:26.:03:28.

available to them to bring the matter to this chamber. And

:03:29.:03:33.

therefore, spread the light of transparency on something which

:03:34.:03:35.

happened because terrible I want to put it on record the Member for

:03:36.:03:40.

Liverpool Walton was far too humble to say the role he played when we

:03:41.:03:43.

were first elected in 2010, he took a group of us in the backbench

:03:44.:03:48.

business debate in a committee room and secured a debate to make sure

:03:49.:03:52.

the light shone on what was a terrible incident and we have a

:03:53.:03:56.

right where we are today and I thank him for it. My honourable friend has

:03:57.:04:01.

recognised the particular role played by a single member of this

:04:02.:04:06.

House. I might say that I think over the years a number of members of

:04:07.:04:10.

this House have raised this issue. The fact that authority didn't

:04:11.:04:16.

listen to the issue being raised is entirely separate. George Howarth.

:04:17.:04:25.

Can I add my thanks to the Home Secretary for the crucial role she

:04:26.:04:30.

has played in bringing this matter to a reasonable conclusion at this

:04:31.:04:36.

point. Could I also ask to consider alongside others the extent to which

:04:37.:04:47.

the lazy, dishonest, inaccurate, stereotyping of football fans in

:04:48.:04:54.

collusion with some sections of the media, gave some credibility,

:04:55.:05:02.

wrongly, to a failed original inquest which I attended a day of

:05:03.:05:06.

and which was agony for those families listening there day after

:05:07.:05:10.

day to their loved ones who died being denigrated in the way that the

:05:11.:05:16.

questions were put. And will she also agree with me that many other

:05:17.:05:24.

failures result from that lazy assumption that football fans in

:05:25.:05:28.

general and the people of Liverpool in particular in some way were

:05:29.:05:34.

culpable in what was a matter completely beyond their control.

:05:35.:05:40.

When she asks the Bishop and others to look at the implications of all

:05:41.:05:45.

this, ask him to look at this question as well. Why is it that

:05:46.:05:51.

some sections of the media, some sections of public services

:05:52.:05:54.

including the police and Amblin service, still feel that they can

:05:55.:06:00.

casually disregarded the truth by accepting lazy stereotypes? He makes

:06:01.:06:07.

a very important point and he's absolutely right. There was an image

:06:08.:06:13.

of football fans that people held to regardless of what they saw going on

:06:14.:06:17.

in front of their very eyes and I was struck, I was hearing radio to

:06:18.:06:23.

commentary which is taking place the time, as the event unfolded, as the

:06:24.:06:26.

tragedy unfolded and even at that time some of the commentating, some

:06:27.:06:32.

of the assumptions being made were about unruly fans rather than about

:06:33.:06:37.

people who were crying out for help as they were dying. And to see the

:06:38.:06:46.

police actually being lined up against public order problems, when

:06:47.:06:49.

there were people there whose lives were being lost at the time, is I

:06:50.:06:55.

think shocking and pulls us all now that he's right, we should never

:06:56.:06:58.

allow casual stereotypes to get in the way of the truth. That appals

:06:59.:07:05.

us. I do not represent Liverpool but I was so fortunate to live there for

:07:06.:07:10.

the best part of the 1990s and it's a wonderful city, decent people,

:07:11.:07:14.

thoroughly decent people, and I believe the way those families

:07:15.:07:16.

conducted themselves over 30 years has shown that to those of us who

:07:17.:07:22.

knew it and to everybody else, I was very fortunate to take over one of

:07:23.:07:25.

the student unions in Liverpool in the 90s and I was told in no

:07:26.:07:30.

uncertain Scouse terms why we didn't stock all newspapers in the student

:07:31.:07:33.

newspaper shop and I've never forgotten that and many shops and

:07:34.:07:38.

stores in Liverpool still don't stock the full condiment as members

:07:39.:07:46.

opposite will know. What is the main lesson that the Home Secretary

:07:47.:07:51.

thinks we should learn from this and that she thinks some elements of the

:07:52.:07:55.

British press which apologised several times since, although it

:07:56.:07:58.

means little to all of the families public in Liverpool, should take a

:07:59.:08:06.

long hard look at themselves? Well, I think it's important in terms of,

:08:07.:08:10.

when information is being spread to the public through the media, the

:08:11.:08:13.

voracity of that information must be an issue that is considered. And he

:08:14.:08:20.

asked me what the overall abiding lesson we need to take from this is

:08:21.:08:26.

about and I think it is about this whole issue that my right honourable

:08:27.:08:29.

friend, the Member for Beaconsfield, referred to, about the culture and

:08:30.:08:34.

attitude taken, about public institutions whose job is to work in

:08:35.:08:39.

the public interest, who should be institutions which can be trusted by

:08:40.:08:44.

the public, whose job often is to protect the public, when something

:08:45.:08:49.

happens, not instinctively wanting to protect themselves instead, but

:08:50.:08:53.

actually always having that a view that, whatever has happened,

:08:54.:08:58.

whatever the answer, they must find the truth for the public. I hope the

:08:59.:09:05.

House will forgive me at the risk of stating the obvious if colleagues

:09:06.:09:08.

are concerned about their own contribution, I will of course call

:09:09.:09:12.

every colleague. This is a little different from other days and

:09:13.:09:17.

therefore, there is some latitude. People must say what they want to

:09:18.:09:21.

say, so if people about other commitments, I'm sorry about that,

:09:22.:09:24.

but if people say, they will be heard. Thank you, Mr Speaker, as

:09:25.:09:31.

chair of the all-party group on the Hillsborough disaster, may I put on

:09:32.:09:36.

record my thanks to you, Mr Speaker, you've been incredibly supportive

:09:37.:09:40.

but especially on behalf of the group, thanks to the Home Secretary

:09:41.:09:45.

and her staff and to all of those officials and members of Parliament,

:09:46.:09:50.

staff as well, who have worked to help our group function over the

:09:51.:09:54.

past four years. To finally know the true verdict, that these killings

:09:55.:09:59.

were unlawful, it's just a huge weight lifted. But there is one

:10:00.:10:05.

issue, Mr Speaker, the campaign for justice, it's never been for

:10:06.:10:10.

Liverpool fans alone. Shirts of all different teams have been worn at

:10:11.:10:16.

the memorial service and for the 25th anniversary, members of this

:10:17.:10:21.

House, from all parts of the country as found with me to Anfield the

:10:22.:10:27.

scarf of the local team. That is why, at the recent memorial service,

:10:28.:10:33.

Trevor Hicks was absolutely right to ask football fans to be united in

:10:34.:10:38.

their grief though rivals in the game. Mr Speaker, I have one last

:10:39.:10:44.

thing to say. The merger of murders chant has got to stop now. What the

:10:45.:10:48.

Home Secretary agree with me that there are no excuses. We have the

:10:49.:10:55.

truth. Those who have suffered because of the Hillsborough disaster

:10:56.:10:58.

have frankly now suffered enough -- murderer's murder.

:10:59.:11:04.

I agree with the honourable lady. I think to those who've been through

:11:05.:11:10.

everything they have been through 427 years, we now have the truth.

:11:11.:11:17.

They have suffered enough I hope, as I said, that the peace they have

:11:18.:11:21.

long been denied, will now come to them and all there is still part of

:11:22.:11:27.

this process to ensure accountability, although I hope they

:11:28.:11:29.

will be able to take some comfort from the verdicts that at last what

:11:30.:11:34.

they knew on that day has been shown to be true. My constituency is part

:11:35.:11:46.

of Merseyside and I have many Liverpudlians in my constituency who

:11:47.:11:49.

welcome the determinations but for me it is but for the grace of God go

:11:50.:11:53.

I for those of us who went to football matches in the 1970s and

:11:54.:11:58.

1980s, the facilities were terrible and crushes were regular. The one

:11:59.:12:01.

thing I want to remind the house is that Hillsborough 1981 FA Cup final,

:12:02.:12:06.

if you look at the Tottenham Hotspur Wolverhampton game, there was a very

:12:07.:12:11.

similar crush and please allow the fans onto the pitch. It looks very

:12:12.:12:15.

similar to the scene many years later in 1989, and what it tells the

:12:16.:12:20.

houses that lessons clearly were not learned. As the member for Bolton

:12:21.:12:25.

who was that the game said, that facility was never fit for purpose.

:12:26.:12:28.

But I would like to pay tribute to my honourable friend the Home

:12:29.:12:32.

Secretary and for the members on the opposite benches, particularly the

:12:33.:12:37.

member who made the speech of his parliamentary career. Also the

:12:38.:12:45.

members for Will and Liverpool who have consistently campaigned on

:12:46.:12:50.

behalf of their constituents for justice and will my honourable

:12:51.:12:54.

friend the Home Secretary assure the house that lessons will be learned

:12:55.:12:58.

and I welcome Bishop James's report that no family should ever have to

:12:59.:13:02.

go through this tragedy again. I honourable friend is absolutely

:13:03.:13:05.

right and sadly the example that he shows us of that game in 1981 shows

:13:06.:13:09.

that at that time, lessons were not learned. We need to make sure that

:13:10.:13:13.

whatever comes out of the work with the families and the various other

:13:14.:13:21.

reports and all that we are now seeing, that we do learn lessons and

:13:22.:13:25.

not just say that we are doing it but actually put what is necessary

:13:26.:13:32.

into practice. The jury has determined that what happened on the

:13:33.:13:36.

day was negligent, unlawful, criminal. It was also tragic and

:13:37.:13:43.

unintended. In the 27 years since, they have not been unintended. They

:13:44.:13:48.

have been deliberate lies and deception, so when the Home

:13:49.:13:53.

Secretary is resourced Singh -- resource in the criminal charges

:13:54.:13:57.

that may be brought, will she assure that appropriate emphasis is placed

:13:58.:14:00.

on perversion of the course of justice, conspiracy to pervert the

:14:01.:14:04.

course of justice, and perjury. Because that is where the real evil

:14:05.:14:12.

lies. As I indicated in my statement to the house, both the question of

:14:13.:14:16.

perversion of the course of justice and perjury are issues that will be

:14:17.:14:21.

looked at, but it is of course for the Independent Crown Prosecution

:14:22.:14:23.

Service to decide whether they choose to bring charges on those or

:14:24.:14:31.

any other criminal charges. Can I first of all start by paying my

:14:32.:14:36.

tribute to the families who have fought longer than before some

:14:37.:14:43.

people in the cells were even born have had to fight the state and it

:14:44.:14:50.

is appalling. I would like to thank my honourable friend the Home

:14:51.:14:53.

Secretary for everything she has done and all of the members locally

:14:54.:14:57.

who've worked for so many years. I just want to paper Diggle attributed

:14:58.:15:04.

to the -- I want to pay particular tribute to the members who have been

:15:05.:15:09.

in communication with me. I just want to say that for those who are

:15:10.:15:16.

not related to the area and have found this so hard and so difficult,

:15:17.:15:19.

it is because we all have families and we all have parents. Some of us

:15:20.:15:27.

have children. We all go to events with hundreds and thousands of

:15:28.:15:31.

events and if you send someone to an event, perfectly legally, you have a

:15:32.:15:34.

right to expect that the authorities will look after you. And those

:15:35.:15:38.

people who died at Hillsborough on that tragic day got there early. By

:15:39.:15:44.

definition, they were at the front of those pens. They were ticketed.

:15:45.:15:49.

And it is a stain on the society forevermore that the state said it

:15:50.:15:52.

was their fault, because it was obvious from day one, from the very

:15:53.:15:55.

moment, that it could not have been their fault. And I fully have a huge

:15:56.:16:01.

amount of respect for the member for Sheffield South East and indeed we

:16:02.:16:06.

have debated this and he's absolutely right when he says that

:16:07.:16:09.

the police officers on the front line for South Yorkshire Police do

:16:10.:16:12.

an outstanding job every day and they deserve our respect, but the

:16:13.:16:16.

behaviour of South Yorkshire Police during this enquiry and the

:16:17.:16:19.

subsequent comments and the verdict has come out, which can leave no

:16:20.:16:23.

doubt in anybody's's mind in this country that these people were

:16:24.:16:26.

unlawfully killed, has been disgraceful. And I think it is a

:16:27.:16:31.

stain on the name of South Yorkshire Police, which I am not sure can ever

:16:32.:16:36.

be raised, so as controversial as this is, could I ask my right

:16:37.:16:40.

honourable friend, working with other members cross party, to

:16:41.:16:45.

consider very seriously, and I did not expect an answer today, whether

:16:46.:16:51.

the only way that fate can be brought back to policing in South

:16:52.:16:55.

Yorkshire and indeed to make sure that the officers who dedicate

:16:56.:16:58.

themselves to protecting the public in South Yorkshire can only really

:16:59.:17:04.

move forward by perhaps merging all for Yorkshire police forces and

:17:05.:17:07.

getting rid of the name of South Yorkshire Police. My honourable

:17:08.:17:11.

friend has asked me a question which is actually slightly wider, I would

:17:12.:17:18.

suggest, than simply the question of South Yorkshire Police when he talks

:17:19.:17:22.

about merging all four forces in Yorkshire. What I would say to my

:17:23.:17:27.

honourable friend is that he is absolutely right both to identify

:17:28.:17:34.

the fact that fans who go along to a football match, to any other public

:17:35.:17:39.

event, where organisers have put in place arrangements to ensure the

:17:40.:17:45.

safety of the people there, and if there is policing of those events,

:17:46.:17:48.

they expect those arrangements to keep them safe and secure. They

:17:49.:17:53.

expect those to have been done properly, to have been done

:17:54.:17:56.

carefully, to have been thought through and for the right decisions

:17:57.:18:00.

to have been taken. And there are many people, as he said, who were

:18:01.:18:07.

not Liverpool fans but to recognise what those families went through on

:18:08.:18:14.

that day as they themselves, week in and week out, go to similar events.

:18:15.:18:21.

Hoping to enjoy themselves and not expecting the terrible tragedy that

:18:22.:18:24.

befell the families and supporters on that terrible day. But he has

:18:25.:18:30.

asked me to reflect on an issue. I think he knows the Government's

:18:31.:18:34.

position on the merging of forces, but as I have said, I think South

:18:35.:18:38.

Yorkshire Police will meet to look very carefully at the verdict that

:18:39.:18:40.

has come out and accept that verdict. Can I commend the Home

:18:41.:18:49.

Secretary and my honourable friend the member for Leeds for the work

:18:50.:18:52.

they have done and all the members of this house. It is often the role

:18:53.:18:58.

of a member of Parliament to give a strong voice to the week and this

:18:59.:19:02.

has been one of those examples. I would like to say a word of

:19:03.:19:07.

gratitude for the kind words from the member from earlier on from

:19:08.:19:12.

Worthing West. There are comparisons here with the Stephen Lawrence

:19:13.:19:16.

family and friends and to the Hillsborough families. And they have

:19:17.:19:20.

certainly been a strong voice for themselves and an advocate for

:19:21.:19:24.

themselves and an example to us all. But they were signatories to the

:19:25.:19:28.

letter that was sent earlier this month to the Prime Minister asking

:19:29.:19:32.

him not to renege on his promise to implement Levenson two and given

:19:33.:19:38.

that that relates to the relationship between the police and

:19:39.:19:42.

the press, it would seem that that is even more imperative that we go

:19:43.:19:47.

ahead with that part of the Levenson report. So good the Home Secretary

:19:48.:19:51.

perhaps have a word with the Prime Minister and asking to expedite that

:19:52.:19:57.

as quickly as possible? I say to the honourable gentleman that of course

:19:58.:20:00.

some of the issues about the relationship between the media and

:20:01.:20:03.

the police were identified in leathers in one, in that report, and

:20:04.:20:08.

these recommendations have been taken by the police. -- Levenson. As

:20:09.:20:14.

I said earlier, we have always been very clear that any investigations

:20:15.:20:19.

that were taking place needed to be completed before a decision was

:20:20.:20:24.

taken about whether Sin two. There are still investigations in hand is

:20:25.:20:28.

being undertaken. -- whether Sin. And this is why I do not think it is

:20:29.:20:32.

appropriate at this time to take a decision. -- birdie. It is days like

:20:33.:20:42.

this that really make you think in this house. Will my honourable

:20:43.:20:45.

friend commit to making sure that all of these resources will be

:20:46.:20:49.

brought to a speedy conclusion and a thorough conclusion because the

:20:50.:20:53.

families have suffered far far, far too long already. I can assure my

:20:54.:20:57.

honourable friend that the Home Office has been making funding

:20:58.:21:04.

available for operation resolve. Specifically, as that is part of the

:21:05.:21:08.

investigation, and ensuring that the IPCC has what it needs to be able to

:21:09.:21:14.

conduct these investigations. Then, of course it will go to the CPS. But

:21:15.:21:20.

I'm very clear that the families deserve a thorough process

:21:21.:21:23.

undertaken in a timely manner which provides them with the

:21:24.:21:24.

accountability that they want. My thanks also to the Home Secretary

:21:25.:21:33.

for her statement and commitment, and to all my colleagues for their

:21:34.:21:36.

work for so many decades on this terrible atrocity. After 27 years of

:21:37.:21:42.

pain, torment and suffering, the families of the 96 people who

:21:43.:21:45.

tragically lost their lives and for the survivors, at last the dark

:21:46.:21:51.

cloud is lifting. After this statement, Merseyside MPs will be

:21:52.:21:53.

travelling back to Liverpool to commemorate what has happened. I

:21:54.:21:59.

have no doubt that the solidarity which has prevailed in Liverpool

:22:00.:22:03.

will shine bright this evening. I pay tribute to the campaigners who

:22:04.:22:06.

have fought tirelessly and never given up. They have endured the

:22:07.:22:10.

unendurable and they shouldn't have too wait any more. We heard the Home

:22:11.:22:16.

Secretary say a moment ago about the work of the IPCC and the police and

:22:17.:22:20.

their investigations which they are completing, and I echo my right

:22:21.:22:24.

honourable friend's call but the fast should happen as quickly as

:22:25.:22:29.

possible. Would she also commits that the CPS will use whichever

:22:30.:22:34.

force it had to expedite their work? We have the force rue truth, we have

:22:35.:22:39.

justice, and now we need accountability. -- we have the

:22:40.:22:45.

truth. I can assure the honourable lady, and the tourney general is --

:22:46.:22:54.

tourney general is present, I repeat what I said earlier. We want this to

:22:55.:22:58.

be done in a timely fashion but we want to make sure it is done

:22:59.:23:02.

properly and thoroughly. I can say, having visited the work of operation

:23:03.:23:11.

resolve and of the IPCC, this significant amount of material that

:23:12.:23:14.

they have had to be going through. Until now, they have been supporting

:23:15.:23:22.

the inquests. Now, their focus will be on preparing those files to give

:23:23.:23:29.

to the CPS. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Although I have always lived at the

:23:30.:23:33.

other end of the country, I have been a passionate Liverpool fan all

:23:34.:23:36.

of my life and I remember very vividly watching the start of that

:23:37.:23:40.

game, gutted I was not able to be there. Very quickly that feeling

:23:41.:23:44.

turned to relief, that I could not be there. Although nothing could

:23:45.:23:48.

compare to the grief, the pain any sense of injustice that the families

:23:49.:23:52.

that lost their lives that they have suffered, it was also true that that

:23:53.:23:56.

day Liverpool fans across the country were smeared and indeed all

:23:57.:24:01.

football fans by what was said in the aftermath. Therefore I hugely

:24:02.:24:08.

welcome that at last the truth is now known, that football fans were

:24:09.:24:11.

not responsible for what happened that day. But it is an absolute

:24:12.:24:16.

scandal that has taken 27 years to get to the truth. Can I ask my right

:24:17.:24:20.

honourable friend the Home Secretary, does she agree with me

:24:21.:24:23.

that not only must we never forget the 96 who died that day, but we

:24:24.:24:28.

must also never be allowed to forget that it was those in authority that

:24:29.:24:33.

chose to cover up their responsibility in this tragedy? And

:24:34.:24:36.

instead chose to smear the name of a great football club, a great city

:24:37.:24:41.

and Indy football fans everywhere. My honourable friend is absolutely

:24:42.:24:46.

right. As he has recognised, there are not just football fans around

:24:47.:24:49.

the rest of the country and around the globe, but Liverpool supporters

:24:50.:24:53.

around the rest of the country and around the globe. And I cannot

:24:54.:25:01.

reiterate enough how appalling it was that everybody, and it was not

:25:02.:25:07.

just organs of the state and other agencies, but actually there was

:25:08.:25:10.

just a general public feeling that somehow the fans must be

:25:11.:25:16.

responsible. And those that question seven and the supplementary to

:25:17.:25:19.

question seven of the verdicts yesterday were absolutely clear,

:25:20.:25:24.

they were asked, was that any behaviour on the part of football

:25:25.:25:27.

supporters which caused or contributed to the danger of the

:25:28.:25:30.

situation at the turnstiles, or which may have caused or contributed

:25:31.:25:35.

to the danger of the situation at the turnstiles, and the answer was

:25:36.:25:42.

clear - no. The verdicts yesterday are both truly momentous, but long

:25:43.:25:48.

overdue. Can I join and others in the House to pay tribute to the

:25:49.:25:53.

campaigners, the families, the friends and the survivors of what

:25:54.:25:57.

happened in Hillsborough, and to welcome very warmly the Home

:25:58.:26:00.

Secretary's statement and to be incredibly powerful response from my

:26:01.:26:04.

right honourable friend, the Shadow Home Secretary. Can I join with him

:26:05.:26:08.

and my neighbour, the MP for waiver tree, in urging the Government and

:26:09.:26:14.

the Home Secretary to do all that is possible to press the CPS to make

:26:15.:26:17.

their decisions of quickly as possible, because that is certainly

:26:18.:26:21.

what the families and survivors want to happen here. Certainly, it is the

:26:22.:26:28.

Government's desire and intention and hope that the CPS will be able

:26:29.:26:31.

to make their decisions as quickly as possible, immensely rich with

:26:32.:26:36.

exercising their proper independent consideration of the fact that they

:26:37.:26:42.

see. -- comments to it. What hit them about this tragedy is that for

:26:43.:26:46.

any of us who have been an away fine or stood on a terrace, we can

:26:47.:26:51.

picture ourselves in that tunnel on the way, looking forward to the

:26:52.:26:54.

match and hoping to see our team win. In the end, it ending up in

:26:55.:26:58.

tragedy. Therefore when those fans were smeared, all of us were

:26:59.:27:02.

smeared. It could have been our club, our town or our city. It was

:27:03.:27:07.

only the finger of fate which meant it was Liverpool. Looking back,

:27:08.:27:11.

there were steps which could have been taken to avoid this tragedy,

:27:12.:27:15.

not least when I speak to Coventry City fans present at the matches in

:27:16.:27:20.

1987 held at Hillsborough who recounted some of the issues during

:27:21.:27:24.

those games which were not addressed with tragic consequences. After 27

:27:25.:27:29.

years, it is time for some of the organisations involved to stop the

:27:30.:27:32.

denial, accept the verdict that have come out, accept the truth and move

:27:33.:27:36.

on to ensure those responsibility now held responsible. My honourable

:27:37.:27:41.

friend is right to refer to the issues around the stadium. Many

:27:42.:27:47.

people will think it is incredible, in a sense, not just surprising, but

:27:48.:27:52.

actually a game of this size took place in a stadium where, as I

:27:53.:27:58.

understand, there was in the proper safety certificate should. How that

:27:59.:28:02.

can be allowed to happen by the relevant authorities, I think people

:28:03.:28:07.

will question for ever. So, it is absolutely issues not just about the

:28:08.:28:11.

police and Ambulance Service, but the football club, the stadium and

:28:12.:28:18.

the design of the stadium. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Can I thank the

:28:19.:28:22.

Minister as a Merseyside MP and Liverpool Speaker? We are on the

:28:23.:28:27.

last chapter of an unbearably sad book. You must recognise in this

:28:28.:28:30.

world that justice doesn't compensate for loss and grief. What

:28:31.:28:35.

more needs to be done. What for the families, and foreclosure? -- for

:28:36.:28:42.

closure. I think the next stage is important for the families. I hope,

:28:43.:28:49.

also, that the families will be able to work with Bishop James Jones and

:28:50.:28:54.

will continue to work with him through the family forms, but also

:28:55.:28:58.

the work he will be undertaking to hear from them and their

:28:59.:29:01.

experiences. That is an important part of not just this process for

:29:02.:29:07.

the families, but an important part for us of being able to ensure that

:29:08.:29:11.

we have heard the experiences of the families and that we can then look

:29:12.:29:15.

at these experiences and take away from that any lessons that need to

:29:16.:29:18.

be learned and any government action that needs to be taken. Can I add my

:29:19.:29:25.

thanks to the Home Secretary for her excellent statement today, and for

:29:26.:29:29.

the work she has been doing on the Justice campaign? I look forward to

:29:30.:29:34.

her response on that. Having served as a special constable in the

:29:35.:29:38.

Metropolitan Police Service, I recognise the institutional

:29:39.:29:40.

defensiveness that was mentioned yesterday by the families. It is not

:29:41.:29:44.

a problem that is unique in South Yorkshire. We'll be Home Secretary,

:29:45.:29:50.

as part of her review, look at ending the practices of offices

:29:51.:29:53.

conferring together when recordings date means? The honourable lady is

:29:54.:30:00.

right. It is not just in policing, there are issues for public sector

:30:01.:30:04.

institutions generally about that desire to look inwards, as I

:30:05.:30:07.

described earlier, and protect themselves. I will reflect on the

:30:08.:30:15.

common she has made. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I'd like to thank the Home

:30:16.:30:18.

Secretary for her determination in this matter, along with my

:30:19.:30:26.

honourable friend the shadow secretary, and other Merseyside

:30:27.:30:30.

colleagues over the many years this has taken to arrive at. Merseyside

:30:31.:30:34.

victims came from Bootle, Birkenhead, Liverpool, Runcorn and

:30:35.:30:41.

other Merseyside communities. There were people coming from all over the

:30:42.:30:48.

country who were supporters. Cheshire, Essex, Leicestershire,

:30:49.:30:52.

Derbyshire, Gloucestershire, Middlesex, Wrexham and London,

:30:53.:30:55.

amongst other places. We'll be Home Secretary join with me and

:30:56.:30:59.

Merseyside colleagues MPs, and the people of Merseyside, in remembering

:31:00.:31:06.

those supporters and their families, wherever they came from on that

:31:07.:31:09.

dreadful day, because they are now part of the Merseyside family? I am

:31:10.:31:14.

very happy to join with the honourable gentleman in doing just

:31:15.:31:17.

that and I think you are absolutely right to draw attention to this

:31:18.:31:21.

house and the fact that many supporters that he came from all

:31:22.:31:25.

parts of the country. As he said, they are now part of the Merseyside

:31:26.:31:29.

family. Does the Home Secretary accept that although she gave us a

:31:30.:31:36.

long, miserable litany of organisations that failed,

:31:37.:31:39.

organisations whose very essence is about securing our safety, there is

:31:40.:31:43.

one institution that shines through gloriously and that is called the

:31:44.:31:47.

family, and particularly the families of those who were killed at

:31:48.:31:52.

Hillsborough? Does she accept that whatever we try and say in this

:31:53.:31:56.

house, we say it inadequately, but share in the sympathy and admiration

:31:57.:32:00.

of the whole country for those families in fighting through this

:32:01.:32:09.

case? Might I thank her, the Right Honourable gentleman for

:32:10.:32:15.

Beaconsfield and the Bishop of Liverpool, Bishop James Jones, in

:32:16.:32:19.

making those families triumph possible. Does she accept when she

:32:20.:32:25.

concluded her statement, in reading the list of possible charges that

:32:26.:32:28.

might now follow, that there will not only be... Vat that will be a

:32:29.:32:38.

chilling task in itself, but even a greater chance for us if we have, I

:32:39.:32:44.

hope, please God, the determination to see through the reform programme

:32:45.:32:49.

that will be necessary of some great institutions which, in the past, we

:32:50.:32:52.

have unquestionably thought were on our side, and who were on somebody

:32:53.:33:00.

else's side on that fateful day? The Right Honourable gentleman raises a

:33:01.:33:03.

number of points and he's absolutely right that it will be necessary for

:33:04.:33:08.

us to stand back and look at how this happened, how it is and how

:33:09.:33:14.

it's been 27 years which have been allowed to pass before we've come to

:33:15.:33:18.

this point. That may mean taking a very difficult look, as he said, at

:33:19.:33:24.

some of the institutions which people expect to protect them, but

:33:25.:33:27.

on this occasion simply did the opposite. As a Doncaster and South

:33:28.:33:37.

Yorkshire MP, can I express my and many people'sdiscussed at what

:33:38.:33:42.

happened by the services we are meant to trust on that day in

:33:43.:33:46.

Sheffield, but also our disgust at the manipulation and the delay in

:33:47.:33:53.

tactics which have contributed to 27 years of heartfelt pursuit and grief

:33:54.:33:58.

by the families, but also the survivors. Including the 730 people

:33:59.:34:02.

who were injured on that day, many with life limiting injuries that

:34:03.:34:06.

they have had to live with and face the consequences of. I believe in

:34:07.:34:11.

the rule of law, and I believe in justice. But it can't take 27 years

:34:12.:34:16.

to achieve the outcome that we saw yesterday. And outcome that has not

:34:17.:34:23.

only validated the actions of the families and others who pursue

:34:24.:34:26.

justice, that was called into question the very faith we putting

:34:27.:34:33.

procedures to bring public services to account for failure. Can I ask

:34:34.:34:37.

the Home Secretary to pick up on two issues which have already been

:34:38.:34:42.

raised? One is about equality of access to justice. From what I have

:34:43.:34:46.

seen and heard, having access and money to the legal services made a

:34:47.:34:51.

big difference to these families. Secondly, we have to look at whether

:34:52.:34:57.

it is right any more to have police services investigating other police

:34:58.:35:01.

forces, or hospitals investigating other hospitals. Maybe there's a

:35:02.:35:04.

time to look at whether we should have a more independent body that

:35:05.:35:09.

oversees and looks into where our public services, sadly, failed. The

:35:10.:35:17.

honourable lady raised to specific issues in her question, and it is

:35:18.:35:26.

certainly the case as she raised the issue of the independent inspection

:35:27.:35:30.

and the regime that should be there for inspecting public authorities.

:35:31.:35:34.

It is certainly in relation to policing, one of the things we are

:35:35.:35:40.

doing is changing arrangements for police complaints and the way they

:35:41.:35:43.

are looking to say that serious and sensitive cases are not investigated

:35:44.:35:48.

by police forces themselves, but they are taken to the IPCC. We will

:35:49.:35:53.

be making changes to the IPCC and the policing and crime Bill going

:35:54.:35:56.

through the House at the moment. The point that she makes about how long

:35:57.:36:03.

it took, the 27 years, the fact that most of the procedures we seem to

:36:04.:36:06.

have didn't allow for the truth to come out, in fact in some cases

:36:07.:36:11.

stopped the truth from coming out, is an absolutely crucial point that

:36:12.:36:15.

underpins all of this. I would hope that the other point she raised, but

:36:16.:36:20.

Bishop James Jones is able to bring forward his review of the

:36:21.:36:23.

experiences of what we need to learn from that, and this will cover

:36:24.:36:26.

points that have been raised by a number of members of this house

:36:27.:36:28.

today. Can I could the comments of those

:36:29.:36:37.

who have banked and congratulated everyone who has campaigned,

:36:38.:36:40.

including beat Home Secretary for yesterday's verdicts. 18 people who

:36:41.:36:49.

died from the borough of Sefton commemorated on a memorial and as

:36:50.:36:55.

today we remember all of those who died and those who were injured, it

:36:56.:36:59.

is important to remember that in those 27 years, many more people

:37:00.:37:06.

have full so died whilst wishing to see yesterday's verdict and not

:37:07.:37:11.

living long enough to do so, including Anna Williams who

:37:12.:37:14.

campaigned so long and hard for her son Kevin who was just 15 when he

:37:15.:37:19.

died at Hillsborough. In her statement, she spoke about the range

:37:20.:37:24.

of possible investigations of a criminal nature, and I wonder if she

:37:25.:37:32.

could just sale at the bit about the potential for criminal investigation

:37:33.:37:36.

into those who reported completely full sleeve what they were fed by

:37:37.:37:40.

those in authority -- completely full sleeve. Which led to cover up,

:37:41.:37:47.

smear and the downright lies told about firms, the people of Liverpool

:37:48.:37:54.

at that time, that have added hugely to the 27 year wait for today's

:37:55.:38:06.

verdict. I take the point the gentleman makes about the public

:38:07.:38:11.

impression. I did, in fact, indicate the offences that are included in

:38:12.:38:15.

the work that is being done. The investigation is a matter for the

:38:16.:38:20.

two bodies that have been set up to undertake the two elements of the

:38:21.:38:26.

investigation for Operation Resolve and the IPCC. As I have said in

:38:27.:38:31.

response to a number of honourable members, decisions about any

:38:32.:38:35.

prosecutions will be entirely independently taken by the CPS. As a

:38:36.:38:43.

football fan I will never forget the 15th of April, 1989, hearing the

:38:44.:38:47.

unimaginable news that 96 people had gone to watch a football match, men,

:38:48.:38:51.

women, children, and never would come home. Let me just say that

:38:52.:38:59.

there were many, many football fans around this country who never

:39:00.:39:04.

believed the official verdict and always believed what Liverpool fans

:39:05.:39:07.

were saying. Let meal so pay tribute to all those involved in the

:39:08.:39:11.

campaign, they are not only heroes of the proud city of Liverpool, for

:39:12.:39:16.

the extraordinary fight for truth and justice which will go down in

:39:17.:39:20.

the history of our democracy, they are British heroes. As well as

:39:21.:39:26.

dealing with the cover-up, can the Home Secretary give the House a

:39:27.:39:30.

clear assurance that the appalling ways families of the victims were

:39:31.:39:34.

treated in the aftermath of the disaster will never happen again.

:39:35.:39:39.

With police officers sitting eating food in the gymnasium as the bodies

:39:40.:39:43.

were lying there, families told they could not hug their loved ones in

:39:44.:39:48.

body bags because they work the property of the coroner, and worst

:39:49.:39:54.

of all, the initial coroner said, forced alcohol testing on all of

:39:55.:40:00.

these victims of this unlawful disaster, including children, that

:40:01.:40:06.

is a disgrace and we want to know that that will never ever happened

:40:07.:40:13.

to a single victim again. The honourable gentleman is absolutely

:40:14.:40:19.

right to refer to those, what was done and how families were treated,

:40:20.:40:23.

and I think how appalling it must have been not only to learn that one

:40:24.:40:27.

of your loved ones had died in these appalling circumstances, to be

:40:28.:40:31.

unable to touch them, but also probably not to know properly be

:40:32.:40:34.

details of when they died and how they died, the cause of death.

:40:35.:40:40.

People have had to live with that for far too long. I hope that it is

:40:41.:40:46.

exactly the sorts of issues which come from the experiences of the

:40:47.:40:50.

families that can be brought to light by the work that I have asked

:40:51.:40:58.

Bishop James Dennis to do. I want to thank the Home Secretary for the

:40:59.:41:01.

work she has done but I want to raise with her the point I raced in

:41:02.:41:04.

2012 when she made the same statement that the rest of the

:41:05.:41:07.

country fell for the story. The rest of the country did not fall for the

:41:08.:41:20.

story, I think I want to pick up on the point that was raised by my

:41:21.:41:29.

honourable friend, seven years after that, South Yorkshire Police paid

:41:30.:41:36.

compensation to silence 39 minus and not one of those police was even

:41:37.:41:42.

dissident of what they had done. They used public money to bury bad

:41:43.:41:51.

news on that day. The point raised by the honourable member for Leeds

:41:52.:41:56.

that they actually tested young people, children who were dead,

:41:57.:42:07.

shows how irresponsible they were. I would like to ask the Home Secretary

:42:08.:42:11.

to do what the Prime Minister did not do today. What specific action

:42:12.:42:15.

would be taken to expose everybody at every level in this country,

:42:16.:42:22.

elected official, appointed officials of her previous

:42:23.:42:25.

government, mine government, at any level who played any role in this

:42:26.:42:30.

cover-up either by omission or commission, because they are as

:42:31.:42:34.

guilty as making people suffer for 27 years as many people who went to

:42:35.:42:42.

their graves vilified he would have been vindicated if this had been

:42:43.:42:46.

sorted out at least a quarter of a century ago. There are other people

:42:47.:42:52.

who should be called to account, even if they didn't commit and not

:42:53.:42:57.

hacks, they have done things that delayed justice and they should be

:42:58.:43:03.

made to account for that. Importantly, I think the report of

:43:04.:43:08.

the independent panel that came out showed the truth of what happened

:43:09.:43:15.

and obviously, in that work, required a number of organisations

:43:16.:43:18.

which had previously been silent on what happened to be prepared to come

:43:19.:43:23.

forward and give their evidence to that panel. In terms of the criminal

:43:24.:43:28.

investigations and potential prosecutions, I have answered that

:43:29.:43:34.

point. I would hope, I would say this, there has been a collective

:43:35.:43:37.

recognition across this House today from all sides of this House that,

:43:38.:43:43.

yes, there were verdicts on what happened on that day in 1989, but

:43:44.:43:49.

subsequently, it was the procedures and processes that should have

:43:50.:43:54.

sought out and found the truth that bailed and we do have to ask

:43:55.:43:57.

ourselves the question as to how that happened and what we can do to

:43:58.:44:05.

make sure it does not happen again. Yesterday's verdict was a historic

:44:06.:44:10.

one and I would like to thank the Secretary of State for her statement

:44:11.:44:15.

and for the embassies that she -- emphasis that the fans were not to

:44:16.:44:22.

blame. I was a teacher in 1989 and remember that day well. I remember

:44:23.:44:26.

how the city was affected at the time and in the years to follow. 27

:44:27.:44:30.

years as a long time and the families of the 96 who lost their

:44:31.:44:35.

lives at Hillsborough have had to fight for the truth. It takes a

:44:36.:44:38.

special kind of courage to fight for 27 years and I would like to pay

:44:39.:44:45.

Burma on the courage of the families.

:44:46.:44:48.

I hope the verdict will be some comfort and I hope the 96 will not

:44:49.:44:56.

been forgotten. The honourable lady is right, they will not be forgotten

:44:57.:45:01.

and she has rights to pay tribute to the families who have kept alive the

:45:02.:45:05.

hope of truth and justice and I hope that they will take some comfort

:45:06.:45:12.

from the verdicts yesterday. Can I pay tribute to the Home Secretary

:45:13.:45:17.

and the right Honourable member the lead is not just for the power of

:45:18.:45:24.

poignancy of their words today but also for the decisive and responsive

:45:25.:45:27.

character that they have both respectively shown in relation to

:45:28.:45:35.

this whole matter. I salute not only my fellow members in this House to

:45:36.:45:44.

represent the families of the Hillsborough tragedy, they have made

:45:45.:45:56.

that journey from victimhood through vilification to vindication, that

:45:57.:45:59.

torturous journey to justice that Mayan constituents faced, and the

:46:00.:46:08.

honourable member for league brought the Hillsborough families over to

:46:09.:46:14.

Derry to meet the bloody Sunday families and I know the bloody

:46:15.:46:19.

Sunday families would give the biggest hugs they could possibly

:46:20.:46:22.

give to the Hillsborough families today. I think what we need to

:46:23.:46:29.

learn, other lessons, rather than just comparing what happened in this

:46:30.:46:33.

case and other cases, the points that were made about what families

:46:34.:46:37.

still had to go through even after what the panel report told us, the

:46:38.:46:45.

fact they had to show carmine chamber as they listen to callous

:46:46.:46:48.

cynicism as they listen to death of their loved ones. We also need to

:46:49.:46:57.

addressed once and for all this insensitivity and arrogance of

:46:58.:47:04.

power, and system defensiveness that the Home Secretary has rightly

:47:05.:47:09.

identified, that the system tells us to move on, there is nothing more to

:47:10.:47:15.

know. I note that is exactly what the system was telling the Right

:47:16.:47:22.

Honourable member fully. In relation to questions about possible charges

:47:23.:47:27.

that arise, one issue that does occur to me arising from the bloody

:47:28.:47:32.

Sunday experience as well, could we get clarity soon on whether or not

:47:33.:47:36.

the law officers in this situation are replying the same rubric that

:47:37.:47:41.

they applied to the Bloody Sunday situation which is to say that

:47:42.:47:47.

questions of charges in the line of perjury cannot be considered until

:47:48.:47:53.

the issues of any other possible charges relating to the events of

:47:54.:47:58.

the day have been. Because that is a rubric, deeply troubling to Bloody

:47:59.:48:04.

Sunday families. I say to the honourable gentleman that I think

:48:05.:48:08.

that is a point I will take away and look into and I thank him for the

:48:09.:48:16.

remarks he made about the importance of a justice system. We rightly are

:48:17.:48:21.

proud of our system of justice in this country that sometimes it has

:48:22.:48:25.

failed to get to the truth. Sadly, we have seen that on board this

:48:26.:48:29.

occasion in relation to Hillsborough, once again it is the

:48:30.:48:34.

families who have been prepared to fight over 27 years, that have got

:48:35.:48:38.

to the truth from the independent panel 's report and now to the

:48:39.:48:43.

verdicts vary clear verdicts that have vindicated what they have said

:48:44.:48:47.

about fans and their loved ones all along. As a teenager I followed my

:48:48.:48:57.

team and that stand on many occasions so this was a victory for

:48:58.:49:03.

all of football today. The crime was exacerbated by the cover-up, so why

:49:04.:49:07.

would like to ask the Home Secretary, apart from going to hell,

:49:08.:49:12.

what does she see as the consequences for those who ball. To

:49:13.:49:23.

many? --. Testimony. Criminal charges should be brought, and that

:49:24.:49:31.

is a matter that will be the decision of the Crown Prosecution

:49:32.:49:33.

Service after seeing the results of the investigations. Can I add my

:49:34.:49:41.

congratulations and commendations to the Home Secretary for the statement

:49:42.:49:51.

and conduct so far. Can I recall the words of my right honourable friend

:49:52.:49:55.

who praised and Williams from Chester who sadly did not live to

:49:56.:50:01.

see this day. I can assure the Home Secretary and the House that she

:50:02.:50:04.

will be in the forefront of the mind of many of my constituents in

:50:05.:50:13.

Chester. Hillsborough was a tragedy got it may have remained so that

:50:14.:50:19.

instead it became a scandal. Does the Home Secretary share my concern

:50:20.:50:23.

that the toxic legacy of Hillsborough is that there is a

:50:24.:50:28.

generation not just on Merseyside but perhaps more widely in the North

:50:29.:50:36.

West and across the country that have absolutely zero confidence in

:50:37.:50:38.

elements of the state and elements of the justice system and frankly,

:50:39.:50:44.

it is up to all of us in this House to rebuild that confidence based on

:50:45.:50:49.

the judgment yesterday. I absolutely agree with the honourable gentleman

:50:50.:50:52.

that we have a role to play in this House to ensure, as I have just said

:50:53.:50:57.

in response to a previous question. We have always felt huge confidence

:50:58.:51:03.

and pride in the justice system we have in the country, but we need to

:51:04.:51:06.

make sure it operates properly and provides justice for people.

:51:07.:51:13.

Can I press the Home Secretary to recognise the importance of the

:51:14.:51:20.

European Convention on Human Rights in ensuring justice in this case?

:51:21.:51:24.

The reference group which she says is being reconstituted it

:51:25.:51:27.

specifically to protect the Hillsborough families' writes. This

:51:28.:51:33.

system does not always work as it should, and victims' families rely

:51:34.:51:39.

on article two, the right to life, to ensure that the deaths that take

:51:40.:51:44.

place when people are in the care of the state of properly investigated.

:51:45.:51:49.

Will she think carefully before pursuing her desire stated this week

:51:50.:51:52.

for the UK to withdraw from the convention? I say to the honourable

:51:53.:51:57.

gentleman that human rights weren't invented when the convention was

:51:58.:52:02.

drafted, but in relation to the convention, my right honourable

:52:03.:52:05.

friend the tourney general responded to an urgent question yesterday and

:52:06.:52:09.

responded well to many questions that he was axed by many members of

:52:10.:52:15.

this house. What I would say to the honourable gentleman is that the

:52:16.:52:21.

whole question of how death that happen where there is some

:52:22.:52:25.

involvement of some element of the state is one of the concerns that

:52:26.:52:29.

I've had and one of the reasons why I've set up an enquiry looking, for

:52:30.:52:34.

example, into death in custody, people held by police custody.

:52:35.:52:40.

Because I think those examples that we see of whether or not the system

:52:41.:52:43.

is actually getting to the truth in the way that it should do, and it's

:52:44.:52:47.

right that we should look into that and investigated. This statement has

:52:48.:52:55.

been one of those moments where I've thought is very proud to be a member

:52:56.:52:58.

of Parliament, and I'd like to commend the Home Secretary for her

:52:59.:53:05.

role. I don't think we mention Liverpool football club, who have

:53:06.:53:08.

never told the fans that it was time to move on, but have always taken

:53:09.:53:13.

ownership of the terrible, terrible tragedy. This was allowed to happen

:53:14.:53:18.

because in the eyes of the establishment, football fans were

:53:19.:53:22.

less than human. As soon as the police and the establishment see

:53:23.:53:28.

groups of people not as individuals but as less than human, then we

:53:29.:53:32.

enter into very dangerous their consensus. Before then, the miners

:53:33.:53:37.

were less than human. We look today at how we treat disabled people,

:53:38.:53:41.

asylum seekers or the victims of child sex abuse and wonder if we

:53:42.:53:45.

also think they are less than human. That is a lesson for all of us to

:53:46.:53:51.

consider. When this tragedy unfolded, the first instinct of

:53:52.:53:54.

South Yorkshire Police was to protect their institution, to

:53:55.:53:58.

protect their reputation and to think nothing of the people who

:53:59.:54:02.

died, their families, because they consider these people to be less

:54:03.:54:08.

than human. That instinct that they had instantly in April 1989 appears

:54:09.:54:12.

to be just as strong and 27 years later by the way that they have

:54:13.:54:15.

conducted themselves during this latest enquiry. In commending

:54:16.:54:21.

everything that the Home Secretary has done, can I ask her to consider

:54:22.:54:26.

whether she believes that people of South Yorkshire should have

:54:27.:54:28.

confidence in the currently the ship of South Yorkshire Police, and

:54:29.:54:34.

whether she has confidence in the Chief Constable of South Yorkshire

:54:35.:54:39.

Police. -- current leadership. Whether she might take this moment

:54:40.:54:44.

to come to that dispatch box and asked the Chief Constable of South

:54:45.:54:47.

Yorkshire Police to consider his position, not just for the families

:54:48.:54:51.

but for all the people who rely on that police force? What I would say

:54:52.:54:56.

is the honourable gentleman has talked about the leadership of South

:54:57.:54:59.

Yorkshire Police. As I indicated earlier, people will be voting for

:55:00.:55:04.

the policing crime commission a position later next week given the

:55:05.:55:10.

democratic accountability on this. I responded earlier to questions about

:55:11.:55:13.

the words that South Yorkshire Police have put out and I will say

:55:14.:55:24.

this again. I think it behaved South Yorkshire Police to recognise the

:55:25.:55:26.

import of the verdicts at work brought out yesterday. And I hope

:55:27.:55:34.

that we will not see attempts to try and somehow suggest that those

:55:35.:55:39.

verdicts were not clear or in any way wrong. That jury sat through 296

:55:40.:55:50.

days of evidence, and they were clear about the role of South

:55:51.:55:57.

Yorkshire Police officers. Let me thank the Home Secretary, the Shadow

:55:58.:56:00.

Home Secretary and all colleagues for what they've said, and for the

:56:01.:56:05.

manner in which the exchanges on this statement have been conducted.

:56:06.:56:11.

Point of order. Thank you. Can I seek your advice on how I can

:56:12.:56:21.

express my deep sorrow for something the Prime Minister referred to

:56:22.:56:24.

earlier. As you know, if a government minister makes a mistake,

:56:25.:56:28.

they can, The Record. I hope you would allow me to say that I fully

:56:29.:56:33.

acknowledge that I have made a mistake and I wholeheartedly

:56:34.:56:36.

apologise to this house for the words are used before I became a

:56:37.:56:40.

member. I accept and understand that the words are used caused upset and

:56:41.:56:44.

hurt to the Jewish community, and I deeply regret that. Anti-Semitism is

:56:45.:56:51.

racism. As an MP, I will do everything in my power to build

:56:52.:56:56.

relations between Muslims, Jews and people of different faiths, and

:56:57.:57:01.

non-. I'm grateful and very thankful for the support and advice I have

:57:02.:57:05.

received from many Jewish friends and colleagues. Advice I intend to

:57:06.:57:11.

act upon. I truly regret what I did, and I hope, I sincerely hope, that

:57:12.:57:15.

this house will accept my profound apology. The honourable lady has

:57:16.:57:21.

found an opportunity to apologise. I thank her for what she has had and

:57:22.:57:25.

it will have been noted by the House, I think that's all I should

:57:26.:57:33.

say on this occasion. Point of order, Mr Alex Ammons. I commend the

:57:34.:57:40.

honourable lady for the words she has just spoken. On a wider point,

:57:41.:57:45.

would it be possible for us to develop an opportunity for the Prime

:57:46.:57:50.

Minister to rapidly collect any misleading impressions he

:57:51.:57:54.

inadvertently gives at Prime Minister's Question Time. For

:57:55.:57:56.

example, I know the Prime Minister would be incredibly anxious today.

:57:57.:58:07.

To acknowledge that 45% of the total orders of five injured and ?40

:58:08.:58:10.

million were placed with Scottish companies regarding the fourth

:58:11.:58:14.

crossing dog I know the pro minister would want to release the misleading

:58:15.:58:18.

impression by acknowledging that steal from his -- but Steele was at

:58:19.:58:26.

either end of the bridge. He would want to acknowledge that the reason

:58:27.:58:30.

there was no Scottish bidder for the main subcontract was the closure of

:58:31.:58:36.

a Scottish steel mill by the previous Tory government in the

:58:37.:58:40.

1990s, removing our capacity to supply such deal. I know that

:58:41.:58:45.

prevailing such an opportunity would swallow up the entirety of this

:58:46.:58:49.

house, given the many mistakes that this Prime Minister makes. But given

:58:50.:58:54.

the clarity of the titular example, perhaps you could consider my new

:58:55.:58:58.

innovative prime ministerial correction procedure? I am very

:58:59.:59:05.

grateful for the point of order. It has been commented upon many a time

:59:06.:59:11.

and often in recent years that I have sometimes judged it necessary

:59:12.:59:19.

and desirable, somewhat, to extend for ministers questions, if I have

:59:20.:59:22.

thought that there has been excessive noise. -- Prime Minister's

:59:23.:59:28.

Questions. I have done that because I wanted backbench members to have

:59:29.:59:32.

that opportunity. However, there are limits and even I would not seek to

:59:33.:59:39.

extend question Time to more than two and a half hours.

:59:40.:59:43.

Notwithstanding the assiduous advocacy of the honourable gentleman

:59:44.:59:50.

and his enthusiasm for my doing so. Point of order. I am seeking your

:59:51.:59:58.

help in perhaps finding a mechanism whereby this house might be able to

:59:59.:00:04.

force a binding vote on the Government following the new law

:00:05.:00:08.

amendment made to the immigration bill in the House of Lords.

:00:09.:00:12.

These vulnerable, unaccompanied children require help now and it

:00:13.:00:15.

would seem as though this house is not likely to consider the

:00:16.:00:20.

immigration bill for a further two weeks, resume the blue to avoid

:00:21.:00:23.

further embarrassment to the Government. Finally, -- to avoid

:00:24.:00:32.

embarrassment. -- presumably. I would like to enable the fry

:00:33.:00:37.

minister to retract his comment that other European countries are able to

:00:38.:00:39.

cope with this country because they have asked them to participate in a

:00:40.:00:46.

relocation scheme. Vulnerable children have been identified as one

:00:47.:00:49.

of the most concerning issues in relation to the refugee crisis.

:00:50.:00:58.

Thank you for the point of order. He is, in a sense, performing a double

:00:59.:01:01.

act today with the right honourable gentleman two seats to his left.

:01:02.:01:07.

What I would say to the honourable gentleman, who is experienced in

:01:08.:01:10.

this house having previously said as its deputy leader, is twofold.

:01:11.:01:15.

First, as he knows the scheduling of business is in the hands of the

:01:16.:01:22.

Government. Notably, in respect of government business. Although his

:01:23.:01:26.

expectation, as things stand, as to when that matter will next be

:01:27.:01:30.

treated by the House of Lords may well be correct, it has not been

:01:31.:01:36.

announced. Secondly, it will, in all probability, the announced at

:01:37.:01:42.

business questions tomorrow by the Leader of the House. If it is not,

:01:43.:01:49.

there will be an opportunity for that matter to be probed. I know I

:01:50.:01:53.

can say with complete confidence and with no fear of contradiction that

:01:54.:01:58.

just as the honourable gentleman is in his case now, so he will be at

:01:59.:02:03.

the appropriate time tomorrow. I think there is more than a passing

:02:04.:02:07.

possibility that he will catch my eye. I'm not sure there is, but I

:02:08.:02:15.

always like hearing the honourable gentleman, the member for West

:02:16.:02:20.

Worthing. Especially as he has such a beaming countenance today. Let's

:02:21.:02:26.

hear the attempted further. We heard the suggestion that the Prime

:02:27.:02:29.

Minister said something was wrong. We heard from the honourable member

:02:30.:02:33.

for the Scottish National Party that the bid between the ends, which I

:02:34.:02:37.

would call the bridge, was made with steel which wasn't produced in this

:02:38.:02:43.

country. Whatever else may be said, that may be a point of enormous

:02:44.:02:47.

interest. It is manifestly not a point of order. We will leave it

:02:48.:02:53.

there for now. If there are no further points of order? Perhaps we

:02:54.:02:59.

can now come to the ten minute rule motion. Whatever the honourable

:03:00.:03:06.

member may have two said tomorrow, I assume he intends to address today.

:03:07.:03:12.

Mr Speaker, I beg to move that lead be given to bring in a dull to amend

:03:13.:03:16.

the landlord and tenant reform Bill to make provision about the

:03:17.:03:22.

renovation of landlords in private rented accommodation to extend

:03:23.:03:25.

tenants' rights, particularly in relation to the sale of occupied

:03:26.:03:29.

property, to cap letting agencies and fees, to require the Mayor of

:03:30.:03:34.

London to establish a mandatory licensing fee in respect of private

:03:35.:03:39.

landlords in Greater London. It is no exaggeration to say that we have

:03:40.:03:43.

a national emergency in housing. It is unacceptable that in 2016

:03:44.:03:47.

millions of people still suffer daily from poor housing and live in

:03:48.:03:53.

fear and desperation without a secure, affordable place to call

:03:54.:03:57.

home. This fear is Terrington amenities apart and risks further

:03:58.:04:01.

dividing our country between a very well off minority and the rest of

:04:02.:04:06.

us. -- tearing key amenities apart. We have soaring costs where the

:04:07.:04:10.

average two-bedroom property in London is now out of reach of 80% of

:04:11.:04:16.

people. A renting sector where people on low and middle incomes are

:04:17.:04:19.

spending around two fifths of their salaries on housing. Something

:04:20.:04:23.

confirmed by the Evening Standard in a report yesterday. And often suffer

:04:24.:04:28.

at the hands of rogue landlords. This problem isn't going to go away

:04:29.:04:33.

soon. Over the less decade, London's private renting sector has doubled

:04:34.:04:38.

in size to become the second-largest housing tenure in the capital. There

:04:39.:04:42.

are now almost 1 million private rented or produced in London,

:04:43.:04:46.

housing over 2 million people, around one third of the population.

:04:47.:04:50.

For many of these people, living in a private renting sector works well

:04:51.:04:53.

with short-term agreement offering them the flexibility they need to

:04:54.:04:57.

move homes quickly for new jobs opportunities. Many of their private

:04:58.:05:01.

landlords are responsible, carrying out repairs in a timely manner and

:05:02.:05:05.

returning deposits properly. For many others, the sector has become a

:05:06.:05:09.

tenure of last resort, rather than the halving destination of choice.

:05:10.:05:16.

There have been huge changes in the demographics of the private renting

:05:17.:05:19.

sector in recent years with an increasing number of families,

:05:20.:05:22.

low-income and vulnerable housing living in the sector. But conditions

:05:23.:05:26.

remained poor. A third of homes failed to meet decent homes standard

:05:27.:05:33.

with over 60% of renters having experienced damp, mould, leaking

:05:34.:05:37.

roofs or Windows, electrical hazards, animal infestation or

:05:38.:05:40.

Catholics, according to a recent survey by the housing charity

:05:41.:05:50.

Shelter. -- animal infestation. One woman broke down in tears last week

:05:51.:05:54.

after describing the conditions. She and her young son could no longer

:05:55.:05:58.

face waking up to live or dead rodents. The landlord is trying to

:05:59.:06:03.

help, but the quality of the housing stock makes it very difficult to

:06:04.:06:08.

stop rodents getting in. A few weeks before, a young woman came to see me

:06:09.:06:11.

with her mother. They have repairs are standing on their rented

:06:12.:06:14.

property, which the landlord is refusing to sort out whilst putting

:06:15.:06:19.

pressure on them to leave the flat. These types of cases I'm sure every

:06:20.:06:23.

member of Parliament will be all too familiar with. This is why I'm

:06:24.:06:28.

supporting the measures put forward by Caroline Pidgeon's London Liberal

:06:29.:06:32.

Democrat team to overhaul the London sector. We believe they will -- was

:06:33.:06:41.

the exact number of rogue landlords operating remains unknown, there is

:06:42.:06:45.

a growing sense that the problem is getting worse as demand for housing

:06:46.:06:49.

and profits that can be made from renting out any accommodation in

:06:50.:06:54.

whatever condition continues to increase, with one in 20 renters are

:06:55.:06:58.

saying they have rented from a rogue landlords in the past 12 months.

:06:59.:07:07.

The enforcement standards in the private rented sector by local

:07:08.:07:14.

authorities is highly variable with recent cuts to local authority

:07:15.:07:18.

budgets further diminishing resort is available to councils to tackle

:07:19.:07:22.

those landlords that provide poor or unsafe living conditions. The

:07:23.:07:32.

resulting patchwork of enforcement has left many people in precarious

:07:33.:07:36.

conditions. Tougher enforcement which the residential landlords

:07:37.:07:39.

Association which represents small Private landlords would welcome. And

:07:40.:07:48.

fourth Jeanette Lee, -- unfortunately, it is very difficult

:07:49.:07:53.

to prosecute landlords. On average, London borough is inspected one in

:07:54.:08:02.

every 55 homes at the private rented sector. There is a significant

:08:03.:08:05.

variation in the level of enforcement activity with some

:08:06.:08:11.

councils inspecting one in 14 properties, and others in one in

:08:12.:08:16.

500. The private rented sector may have meant the needs of tenants in

:08:17.:08:24.

years gone by, but the needs of tenants have changed magically in

:08:25.:08:25.

recent years. The plans I have about to refer to

:08:26.:08:43.

would reform the private sector. All landlords in London should be

:08:44.:08:48.

registered, this would make it easier to identify the scale and

:08:49.:08:52.

trends in the Private rented sector and to ensure landlords can be

:08:53.:08:57.

traced easily. To crack down on rogue landlords with a licensee

:08:58.:09:00.

scheme, the government should introduce a licensing scheme for all

:09:01.:09:03.

private landlords in London with the aim of professionalising the sector,

:09:04.:09:07.

improving conditions and removing rogue landlords from housing market.

:09:08.:09:11.

I accept this proposal will not be welcome by all landlords but some,

:09:12.:09:22.

except the limited role. Scrap unfair letting agent fees for

:09:23.:09:26.

renters. Moving from one of rented home to another can be very

:09:27.:09:33.

expensive. I am told that agents tried to poach landlords from each

:09:34.:09:38.

other to secure the fees that are triggered to secure for themselves

:09:39.:09:46.

and they dangle the prospect of higher rents in front of the

:09:47.:09:53.

would-be landlord. In Sutton, a quick check suggests fees of 400 to

:09:54.:09:59.

?500 when signing up a new tenant and when that is added to the

:10:00.:10:02.

six-week deposit which currently would be approximately ?1500 for a

:10:03.:10:10.

two bedroom flats, that would be a total of ?2000 that the tenant would

:10:11.:10:15.

need to find up front. Give renters extra rights when landlords sell up.

:10:16.:10:22.

They should be given first refusal to buy the home they are renting.

:10:23.:10:28.

Finally, give councils powers to manage properties and offer longer

:10:29.:10:34.

tenancies. This would allow councils to develop, manage Private homes

:10:35.:10:41.

outside of the revenue account to improve quality of homes in the

:10:42.:10:45.

sector. Also call on the government to work with Private landlords,

:10:46.:10:49.

mortgage companies and freeholders to enable private landlords to offer

:10:50.:10:54.

longer tenancies because often it is mortgage companies or freeholders

:10:55.:10:57.

who are standing in the way of those longer tenancies. This is about

:10:58.:11:01.

issues that will make a real difference. I am not claiming these

:11:02.:11:07.

measures are the silver bullet that will solve London's housing problems

:11:08.:11:12.

because the fundamental issue is a lack of supply, particularly of

:11:13.:11:15.

affordable homes, an issue that is no closer to a solution given that

:11:16.:11:21.

only 5000 affordable homes were built last year, the lowest figure

:11:22.:11:25.

since the mayor was first elected in 2008. We do believe these proposals

:11:26.:11:30.

will improve the lot of private renters, some of you suffer -- some

:11:31.:11:40.

of whom suffer in unsuitable conditions. This has got to stop. I

:11:41.:11:51.

urge the House to support this bill. As many as are of the opinion, say

:11:52.:11:57.

"aye". To the contrary, "no". I think the ayes have it. The ayes

:11:58.:12:04.

have it. Who will prepare and bringing the bill? Norman Lamb, and

:12:05.:12:11.

Greg Mulholland, Stephen Pugh and myself.

:12:12.:12:35.

Landlord and tenant reform Bill. Second reading, what day? Friday

:12:36.:12:50.

13th of May. Friday the 13th of May. We now come to the programme motion

:12:51.:12:54.

on the Trade Union Bill. Minister to move formally. The questionnaires as

:12:55.:13:02.

on the order paper, As many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the

:13:03.:13:09.

contrary, "no". The ayes have it. The clerk will now proceed to read

:13:10.:13:14.

the orders of the day. Consideration of Lords amendments. We begin with a

:13:15.:13:21.

Lords amendment to with which we consider government amendments a and

:13:22.:13:28.

B to Lords amendment to. The government motion to disagree to

:13:29.:13:33.

Lords amendments 17 and government amendments a to C two words restored

:13:34.:13:38.

to the bill. I call the minister to make government amendment a to Lords

:13:39.:13:46.

amendment two. The measures in this bill aimed to modernise the

:13:47.:13:49.

relationship between trade unions and their members and strike a

:13:50.:13:52.

fairer balance between the rights of trade unions and the rights of

:13:53.:13:57.

people who rely on public services. By making sure strikes only happen

:13:58.:14:03.

where unions have secured a clear, positive and recent democratic

:14:04.:14:07.

mandate. Consideration in the House of Lords has made important changes

:14:08.:14:12.

to this bill, the great majority of which the government believes

:14:13.:14:16.

improve the bill. But the first group today deals with those issues

:14:17.:14:20.

where the government did not support the changes proposed. This first

:14:21.:14:24.

group is about electronic balloting and facility time. We have reflected

:14:25.:14:29.

carefully in the light of the strong views expressed both in debates in

:14:30.:14:32.

this House and in the other place and I would take issue -- each issue

:14:33.:14:39.

in turn. As I have said before, the government has no principled

:14:40.:14:42.

objection to electronic balloting and I have said before and I'm happy

:14:43.:14:47.

to say again that I think it is likely to be common in 20 years'

:14:48.:14:51.

time. We are seeking a degree of sensible caution. I am happy to give

:14:52.:14:59.

way. He will remember our many conversations during the committee

:15:00.:15:05.

stage of the bill. Given he says he accepts it may come in, we see the

:15:06.:15:08.

Lords amendment down before us on this issue and moving towards a

:15:09.:15:13.

pilot scheme, it remains the fact that electronic ballot is used by

:15:14.:15:18.

many organisations. Why not just bring it about now? If the

:15:19.:15:25.

honourable gentleman with whom I enjoyed greatly debating many of the

:15:26.:15:30.

detailed clauses of this bill over a longer period when he occupied a

:15:31.:15:34.

different post on the opposition front bench, if he gives me a bit of

:15:35.:15:40.

time, I will explain that I am not quite yet ready to Russian to the

:15:41.:15:46.

Nirvana that he paints for us. -- to rush in. We are asking for a degree

:15:47.:15:51.

of sensible caution to ensure that important votes are safe and secure.

:15:52.:15:55.

I am not asking honourable members today to reject the clause added to

:15:56.:16:00.

the bill in the House of Lords on electron it balloting. But I am

:16:01.:16:06.

asking for a small but important change to ensure we proceed

:16:07.:16:10.

prudently on the basis of evidence as we take this important step. He

:16:11.:16:18.

will no doubt has been the evidence from the electoral reform Society

:16:19.:16:24.

whose say that the instances of fraud in Elektra on it balloting is

:16:25.:16:29.

no different to the instances of fraud in postal balloting. Given

:16:30.:16:35.

that, what is his objection? He, too, will have to be patient because

:16:36.:16:39.

I will come on and talk about evidence from around the world on

:16:40.:16:43.

some of the problems that other systems have encountered when trying

:16:44.:16:48.

to embrace electronic balloting to quickly and without adequate

:16:49.:16:51.

preparation. I appreciate from previous rates in this House that

:16:52.:16:55.

there are differences in opinion about whether electronic balloting

:16:56.:17:00.

is sufficiently safe and secure. The noble Lord Kerslake said he

:17:01.:17:05.

personally has convinced that the case has been made and we have heard

:17:06.:17:08.

rather members that they are also convinced. Lord Kerslake was good

:17:09.:17:13.

enough to say he appreciates others are not and I would remind the House

:17:14.:17:17.

that the open rights group gave evidence to the speakers commission

:17:18.:17:22.

and neatly summed up concerns about the security of online voting. I

:17:23.:17:30.

quote, voting is a uniquely difficult question. The system must

:17:31.:17:37.

already know if you have already voted and allow for audits and

:17:38.:17:41.

recounts yet it must always preserve your anonymity and privity. That was

:17:42.:17:45.

the view of the open rights group and that is the view that we must

:17:46.:17:52.

investigate more carefully. Lord Kerslake explained this is why his

:17:53.:17:55.

clause added to the bill in the other place requires that a review

:17:56.:17:59.

is commissioned and there have already been many reviews looking

:18:00.:18:03.

into this such as that mentioned by the honourable member by

:18:04.:18:11.

organisations like the electoral reform service. These have indeed

:18:12.:18:19.

made encouraging comments about the potential of a move to electronic

:18:20.:18:24.

ballots, but none have been able to provide assurance on managing the

:18:25.:18:29.

risks. I will just get a little further and will be happy to give

:18:30.:18:33.

way again. While there is still this doubt, I can see merit in exploring

:18:34.:18:38.

the issues further. The important difference is that this review will

:18:39.:18:43.

specifically be in the context of electronic balloting for industrial

:18:44.:18:48.

action. In accepting that should be this review, we accept the spirit of

:18:49.:18:52.

the clause on electronic balloting. We accept that to leave the entirety

:18:53.:18:57.

of the amendment made by the Mogul boards. -- noble Lords. I understand

:18:58.:19:10.

the position he is setting out. I am struggling to understand the logic

:19:11.:19:13.

because if he is saying electronic balloting is neither secure nor

:19:14.:19:20.

anonymous, is he inferring that when Conservative Party members vote for

:19:21.:19:25.

a particular candidate online in an internal Tory party election, it is

:19:26.:19:32.

neither secure nor anonymous? With the greatest respect, I would point

:19:33.:19:37.

out to the honourable gentleman that that is an internal election for an

:19:38.:19:41.

independent organisation. Here we are talking about static tree

:19:42.:19:49.

elections. They reported because the public has a deep interest in their

:19:50.:19:54.

resultant it is quite right we hold them to our highest standard. I am

:19:55.:19:58.

happy to give way to the honourable member. He is sounding almost guilty

:19:59.:20:06.

of double standards on this issue and whilst he says he has accepted

:20:07.:20:12.

the majority of the noble Lords's amendment, he is neglecting to adopt

:20:13.:20:16.

any of those components that would require any substantial action by

:20:17.:20:19.

the government. What could possibly be wrong and what reasonable

:20:20.:20:25.

objection could he have two piloting an electron it balloting scheme? I

:20:26.:20:29.

think he realises he doesn't have a reasonable argument against it. If

:20:30.:20:33.

the honourable members on the other side would give me a minute, they

:20:34.:20:36.

may hear my argument and then they could decide whether it is

:20:37.:20:42.

reasonable on art. I am now going to satisfy them with my argument and I

:20:43.:20:46.

will be happy to give way if they wish to comment. There is one

:20:47.:20:51.

element, and only one, in the amendment moved by the House of

:20:52.:20:55.

Lords with which we cannot agree and that is the strategy for roll out.

:20:56.:21:02.

This is because it produces is -- pre-judges the outcome of the review

:21:03.:21:07.

and commits the Secretary of State to press ahead with the roll-out

:21:08.:21:11.

irrespective of the review's findings. The House will be

:21:12.:21:15.

interested to know, they may not welcome it, that there are lots of

:21:16.:21:22.

examples where electronic balloting has been tried but found not to work

:21:23.:21:26.

and even where it has had to be rolled back. The speaker's

:21:27.:21:32.

commission on Digital democracy identified 14 countries that have

:21:33.:21:37.

tried Internet voting for statutory elections. This includes five

:21:38.:21:43.

countries including the UK but also Finland, USA, the Netherlands and

:21:44.:21:48.

Spain which either piloted or fully adopted electronic voting and then

:21:49.:21:50.

decided to discontinue its use. What the minister says on that

:21:51.:22:01.

point, the last Labour government did pilot Bertrand voting and a

:22:02.:22:04.

report afterwards indicated that there was no evidence at all in

:22:05.:22:09.

terms of fraud or other types of things. -- electronic voting. I was

:22:10.:22:17.

a scandal around postal voting. There was no evidence in that report

:22:18.:22:22.

that e-voting was any more inefficient than any other type of

:22:23.:22:26.

voting. If the honourable jasmine is correct and there is no problem, the

:22:27.:22:31.

review will conclude so and it will report to Parliament. I will not

:22:32.:22:36.

give way again. I will not give way again, I'm going to carry on with my

:22:37.:22:40.

argument. The review will conclude that and will report accordingly to

:22:41.:22:45.

the House. We already have the power to permit electronic balloting in

:22:46.:22:50.

section 54 of the employment relations act 2004. But we have not

:22:51.:22:55.

exercised it because we have not been convinced and nor has any

:22:56.:22:59.

previous government, including a Labour government that held office

:23:00.:23:04.

for 13 years, has not been convinced that the system would ensure

:23:05.:23:07.

privacy, opportunity and minimise the risk of fraud and malpractice.

:23:08.:23:12.

I'm going to carry on a second further, but I will be happy to give

:23:13.:23:16.

way. There has been much positive progress in the way that technology

:23:17.:23:20.

has helped to address these issues, reflected in the reports but I have

:23:21.:23:24.

cited. We have been clear that we will be willing to use that power

:23:25.:23:29.

when we are convinced that the concerns are adequately addressed.

:23:30.:23:32.

The legislation is framed in a way that requires us first to be

:23:33.:23:35.

satisfied on these matters, and for good reason. That is why inside of a

:23:36.:23:40.

strategy for roll out, I am today seeking agreements to which

:23:41.:23:43.

statutory the choir and for the Government to publish its response

:23:44.:23:48.

to the review which will be laid before Parliament. -- statutory

:23:49.:23:53.

requirements. Questions can only ask and it can be raised in the House in

:23:54.:24:00.

the usual way. The minister before the Trade Union Bill was heard

:24:01.:24:03.

before the Lords wrote to ministerial colleagues, can the

:24:04.:24:15.

Minister confirm that should the electronic balloting be successful

:24:16.:24:20.

but he will use that mechanism to put a balloting in place? --

:24:21.:24:27.

electricity letting. I can assure you that my relations with the

:24:28.:24:31.

Socialist party and newspaper probably rather less good than the

:24:32.:24:35.

honourable gentleman's. It was not through my good offices that they

:24:36.:24:41.

got hold of any document, not that I accept that they did get hold of any

:24:42.:24:46.

document. He asked a reasonable question and I think I have made

:24:47.:24:50.

very clear that the Government has no objection in principle and that

:24:51.:24:55.

we do expect statutory elections to move towards online voting. But we

:24:56.:24:59.

will do so in the case of trade union strike ballots when we are

:25:00.:25:05.

convinced that they are safe and that is why we want to have a

:25:06.:25:11.

review, that is why the review will be an independent review. That is

:25:12.:25:14.

why we were caught to Parliament and I'm not going to prejudge the

:25:15.:25:18.

outcome of the review because if I did, frankly, it would be slightly

:25:19.:25:21.

pointless to have the review in the first place. I will give way. He's

:25:22.:25:30.

said before that it was OK to do it for the election for the Tory mayor

:25:31.:25:32.

because they were independent organisers. Did the Tory party carry

:25:33.:25:42.

a review into how secure the systems were before they set up the

:25:43.:25:46.

discussions around having electricity rating for the Tory now?

:25:47.:25:54.

-- electronic voting. You must recognise that these are statutory

:25:55.:25:59.

elections. Internal elections for candidates, in any party, are not

:26:00.:26:03.

statutory elections. They might be subject to problems, but that is a

:26:04.:26:08.

problem for the organisation, not the public. The public have a right

:26:09.:26:13.

to expect a higher standard in the consideration of statutory

:26:14.:26:15.

elections. I'm not going to give way, he has had a go. I will give

:26:16.:26:20.

way to the ladies who have not, but then I will make some progress. They

:26:21.:26:25.

are all welcome to speak to this debate in their own right and it

:26:26.:26:28.

would be correct to make some progress. I think that the Minister

:26:29.:26:37.

that like I thank the Minister. It has been said it would be pointless

:26:38.:26:41.

to have a review in the various stages. I agree, it is pointless

:26:42.:26:47.

because the technology already exists. It has already been said

:26:48.:26:52.

that the Conservative Party has used that as a previous programmer, I can

:26:53.:26:55.

tell you it's already exist and is already secure. Not only has it been

:26:56.:27:01.

used in various businesses or independent organisations, but it

:27:02.:27:04.

has been used in X factor and various shows on TV. I can tell the

:27:05.:27:09.

Minister, you don't need to do a report, you just need to move onto

:27:10.:27:14.

the next stage. The honourable lady is a fan of X factor and so are many

:27:15.:27:19.

of us. But she will recognise that important though it is, it isn't a

:27:20.:27:24.

statutory election. Well I'm happy to acknowledge her expertise, I hope

:27:25.:27:28.

that she will to acknowledge the evidence given by the open rights

:27:29.:27:34.

group she can investigate, it isn't a Tory front organisation, it is an

:27:35.:27:38.

independent and specialist organisation which gave evidence

:27:39.:27:41.

only last year and said that there were specific issues to overcome.

:27:42.:27:46.

She will also have to explain and will have a chance to explain why it

:27:47.:27:51.

is that several countries in the world have experimented with online

:27:52.:27:54.

voting and then reversed it, because they found it to be unsafe. This

:27:55.:28:01.

review will allow us. Macro oh, I did say I would give way.

:28:02.:28:07.

Could the Minister be specific and say how electronic voting is less

:28:08.:28:15.

secure than postal voting? No, I would be specific because what we

:28:16.:28:21.

are going to do is set up an independent review of people who

:28:22.:28:25.

have real expertise in this issue. She will be welcome to give evidence

:28:26.:28:29.

to that review. They will produce a report which they will label for

:28:30.:28:34.

Parliament and she can interrogate that review and the Government's

:28:35.:28:40.

response. I'm happy to give way. On the point of the other opposition

:28:41.:28:46.

bench regarding the Conservative Party online voting, I found it

:28:47.:28:50.

impossible to get onto it so I was unable to vote in the male election.

:28:51.:28:56.

Did my honourable friend have the same issue that I did? I did not

:28:57.:29:01.

have that issue, but I think that does show that there can be issues

:29:02.:29:06.

with online voting, as indeed we know that there can be issues with

:29:07.:29:11.

postal voting. While it is not a matter of enormous public interest

:29:12.:29:15.

because this was not a statutory election, it's never the less is

:29:16.:29:17.

something which we would be very worried about if a statutory

:29:18.:29:26.

election like a union strike ballot were subject to the same level of

:29:27.:29:30.

problems. One more time, then I will get on. Are you seriously suggesting

:29:31.:29:36.

that whoever the Conservative candidate is for London Mayor is not

:29:37.:29:43.

a matter of public interest? I am happy to explain again that it is

:29:44.:29:49.

not a statutory election. But this review will allow us to consider

:29:50.:29:53.

again the case for e-voting and ensure that we have assessed the

:29:54.:29:56.

latest technology coming into view. I believe that taking together the

:29:57.:30:03.

review and the Government's response will enable the Secretary of State

:30:04.:30:07.

to create a properly informed and transparent decision about the risks

:30:08.:30:10.

of curing safe and secure electronic lighting and whether such a system

:30:11.:30:18.

should be rolled out. You have invited us to contribute to the

:30:19.:30:21.

review and I wonder will you accept electronic submissions, or do we

:30:22.:30:24.

have to get our work will and parchment out? She makes a very good

:30:25.:30:30.

point and my honourable friend suggests we should be inscribed on

:30:31.:30:36.

vellum. She will know that my honourable friend, the Minister for

:30:37.:30:40.

the Cabinet Office, has a particular enthusiasm for this means of

:30:41.:30:43.

communication, but I prefer the more modern methods. Perhaps a submission

:30:44.:30:46.

by what that might be appropriate. The Government does not agree with

:30:47.:31:02.

the Lord's in that amendment. As my right honourable friend knows, I am

:31:03.:31:06.

in favour of e-voting and I think the route he is taking is the

:31:07.:31:10.

correct one. But there is one real fear out there and that is what this

:31:11.:31:14.

approach is designed simply to delay the onset of online voting. Can he

:31:15.:31:19.

tell the House that when the minister receives viewport, he or

:31:20.:31:22.

she will deal with it appropriate dispatch? -- receives the report.

:31:23.:31:30.

Thank you for the contribution on this and on other important matters.

:31:31.:31:34.

I believe he has made a significant contribution to helping to improve

:31:35.:31:38.

this ill. On the particular question he asked, the amendment that we are

:31:39.:31:45.

proposing suggests that this review should be commissioned within six

:31:46.:31:50.

months, and then reported to Parliament. Of course, as I have

:31:51.:31:54.

made clear, we have no objection in principle. If the review suggests

:31:55.:32:01.

that it is safe to embrace e-voting, we will be able to proceed. He will

:32:02.:32:04.

have noted that the amendments physically suggest that we should be

:32:05.:32:10.

able to introduce pilots. -- specifically suggest. One of the

:32:11.:32:14.

issues with the existing provisions is it might not be the case that you

:32:15.:32:18.

could do a pilot without going for a full application. Such pilots might

:32:19.:32:25.

be an appropriate phase after the review has completed. If I may now

:32:26.:32:30.

return facility time and the facility time cap. The Government

:32:31.:32:35.

does not agree with the Lord's in that amendment and in consequence I

:32:36.:32:39.

move amendment 17, which brings back the reserve cap, but with safeguards

:32:40.:32:43.

which respond to the concerns that were expressed here in our debates

:32:44.:32:48.

but also which led to the deletion of the clause in the other place,

:32:49.:32:53.

and with the subject of quite frenzied inquisition in both houses.

:32:54.:32:58.

Together with the publication requirements, it is my view that

:32:59.:33:01.

they reserve power to cap facility time to a reasonable level delivers

:33:02.:33:05.

our manifesto commitments to tighten the walls around taxpayer funded

:33:06.:33:10.

facility time for union representatives. -- tighten the

:33:11.:33:14.

rules. I shall reiterate what I said when this house was considering the

:33:15.:33:18.

bill before. We are not seeking to ban facility time. This has never

:33:19.:33:24.

been our intention. Our strong preference is the transparency alone

:33:25.:33:26.

should be enough to change practices in the public sector with employers

:33:27.:33:32.

voluntarily reducing their costs where they are found to be spending

:33:33.:33:37.

more on facility time than is reasonable. I'm happy to give way.

:33:38.:33:44.

You have been most generous. In the aforementioned memo which I referred

:33:45.:33:48.

to earlier, there was an indication in that memo that they would be

:33:49.:33:54.

concessions and discussions with the devolved administration in relation

:33:55.:33:58.

to facility time. Can he confirm if consultations are taking place, or

:33:59.:34:04.

is it his intention to dictate to the devolved administration what

:34:05.:34:08.

facility time should be for their own workforce? I'm sure the

:34:09.:34:14.

honourable member will understand that I never comment on articles in

:34:15.:34:18.

the Socialist worker, but he will understand that we have regular

:34:19.:34:21.

conversations with ministers in the devolved administrations. All of the

:34:22.:34:25.

matters addressed in this bill are reserved matters. It's not a matter

:34:26.:34:29.

of dictating, it is simply of this government fulfilling its duty to

:34:30.:34:34.

legislate on the matters for which we have exclusive responsibility. I

:34:35.:34:39.

have to give way. Specifically on that point about devolved powers, is

:34:40.:34:45.

it not the case that in that letter, the minister himself has received

:34:46.:34:49.

legal advice that they have a very weak case about enforcing those

:34:50.:34:54.

powers on the Welsh government? The honourable lady, who made an

:34:55.:34:59.

admirable and, for me, rather challenging contribution to our

:35:00.:35:03.

deliberations in committee, knows that we do not comment on legal

:35:04.:35:10.

advice. Only if publication and the proper monitoring and recording that

:35:11.:35:13.

it necessitates does not achieve the aim of bringing excessive spending

:35:14.:35:19.

on facility time back down to a reasonable level, only then will it

:35:20.:35:23.

be necessary to consider the imposition of a cap. A reserve power

:35:24.:35:29.

is very much a power of last resort. I will carry on and explain what we

:35:30.:35:33.

are now proposing, because it is a little different than what we

:35:34.:35:37.

previously proposed. I will give way before I conclude. A reserve power

:35:38.:35:44.

is very much a power of last resort. While amendment 17 brings back the

:35:45.:35:48.

reserve power, we are not simply replicating the provision that this

:35:49.:35:52.

house considered before and that was deleted from the bill in the other

:35:53.:35:56.

place. The amendment before the House today incorporates a number of

:35:57.:36:00.

important safeguards which will trigger how and when the reserve

:36:01.:36:03.

power to cap the time would be exercise. We have listened to the

:36:04.:36:08.

concerns of members for this house and the other place and have sought

:36:09.:36:14.

to address those concerns. The published data in this bill will

:36:15.:36:18.

provide valuable information about the levels of spending across the

:36:19.:36:22.

public actor and informed decisions about what should be regarded as a

:36:23.:36:27.

reasonable level of spend on facility time, taking into account

:36:28.:36:31.

the needs of the relevant sector as well as the particular circumstances

:36:32.:36:33.

of individual employers within the sector.

:36:34.:36:38.

I will just finished this bit and then I will be happy to give way. It

:36:39.:36:46.

is our intention and, of course, that the exercise of reserve power

:36:47.:36:51.

will not even be considered before there are at least two years of data

:36:52.:36:55.

from the body is subject to the publication requirement. Following

:36:56.:36:58.

the publication of the second year's data, should a particular employer's

:36:59.:37:03.

facilities I be a cause for concern, having regard to all relevant

:37:04.:37:06.

factors, the minister will send and publish a letter to the employer

:37:07.:37:10.

drawing attention to the concerns. The Arroyo will have the opportunity

:37:11.:37:17.

to set out the reasons, -- employer, will then have a further year from

:37:18.:37:25.

the date to make progress in relation to facility time levels.

:37:26.:37:29.

Nothing will be done until a third year's data has been published. Only

:37:30.:37:33.

then will be Minister be at liberty to exercise the reserve power and

:37:34.:37:38.

make regulations to cap facility time for those employers. I will be

:37:39.:37:44.

happy to give way. As somebody who enjoyed facility time, spent a lot

:37:45.:37:48.

of that time trying to manage through huge reorganisations and

:37:49.:37:53.

redundancies a lot of the responsibility of his former

:37:54.:37:56.

government, can he explain what he means by terms like excessive and

:37:57.:38:00.

reasonable, because by example, we have just gone through the last four

:38:01.:38:09.

years, we lost 48% of our budget with lots of redundancies, and we

:38:10.:38:17.

have been engaged in a night trying to retrain people. The honourable

:38:18.:38:25.

gentleman is right. It can vary on the organisation and on the

:38:26.:38:29.

situation of that organisation what is reasonable, and that is why we

:38:30.:38:33.

want to collect two years of data before we establish what seems to be

:38:34.:38:38.

a reasonable level are looking at comparable organisations. I will

:38:39.:38:41.

come onto the fact that we are also going to be creating the of removing

:38:42.:38:47.

the cap from an organisation if it has a particular situation such as

:38:48.:38:50.

the one he describes which would justify a much higher level of

:38:51.:38:54.

spending on different kinds of facility time. I give way. Most

:38:55.:39:00.

grateful to my honourable friend. I think what my will friend is try to

:39:01.:39:05.

make explicit is across the trade union movement there are shop

:39:06.:39:07.

steward to do an excellent job day in day out and whereas some

:39:08.:39:12.

situations where the facility time is taken advantage of. One thinks of

:39:13.:39:17.

the example of the Grangemouth situation. Could my honourable

:39:18.:39:25.

friend make it clear, at no time is he saying that all shop stewards are

:39:26.:39:28.

swinging the lead and there is actually a lot of valuable work

:39:29.:39:33.

going on. I am happy to confirm and applaud what my honourable friend

:39:34.:39:39.

said. In truth, I would be as worried if an organisation was

:39:40.:39:43.

declaring no spending on facility time as if they were declaring

:39:44.:39:46.

excessive spending, because helping people with training, all with

:39:47.:39:53.

health and safety issues is an absolutely vital role in a well-run

:39:54.:40:00.

organisation. But he will recognise, and I know on members across the

:40:01.:40:04.

House will also, there have been organisations, we have had direct

:40:05.:40:08.

dealings of this within the civil service, there were agencies and

:40:09.:40:12.

departments that were allowing an abuse of the system and we want to

:40:13.:40:16.

restore confidence in the system by making it clear that we we need

:40:17.:40:21.

transparency and then if there is still excessive behaviour, then we

:40:22.:40:28.

will introduce a cap. I give way. I am grateful to the Minister for

:40:29.:40:32.

giving way. In order to try and help the House understand why you feel

:40:33.:40:37.

there is the need for this cap, I wonder, could you tell the House in

:40:38.:40:43.

what percentage of public sector employers presently do you feel

:40:44.:40:47.

there is an excess of granted of facility time and this cap would be

:40:48.:40:51.

beneficial in your view of stopping that? I am not at all sure if you do

:40:52.:40:57.

believe there is a need for a cap, but I think the honourable gentleman

:40:58.:41:03.

was referring to me. The honourable gentleman will get used to the fact

:41:04.:41:09.

that if you say, if one says EU, it means me. If one says the honourable

:41:10.:41:15.

gentleman, it means the Minister. Minister. I thought for your sake I

:41:16.:41:22.

should clarify that. And he asks a reasonable question. I hope you will

:41:23.:41:27.

understand that until we have applied the transparency clause, we

:41:28.:41:31.

do not know what is the level of spending that is currently happening

:41:32.:41:34.

across the broader public sector and so therefore, we cannot judge which

:41:35.:41:38.

organisations are currently spending in excess. What we do not is that

:41:39.:41:45.

when we introduced a similar provision in the civil service, we

:41:46.:41:48.

did find that some organisations were acting perfectly responsibly

:41:49.:41:54.

and others were allowing an abuse of the system and hence we introduced a

:41:55.:41:58.

cap in the civil service. It has saved the taxpayer money and not in

:41:59.:42:02.

anyway undermined the proper fulfilment of responsibilities by

:42:03.:42:06.

trade union representatives. I am now going to make a bit more... I

:42:07.:42:11.

have such a soft spot for the honourable gentleman. I appreciate

:42:12.:42:18.

his generosity. Does he appreciate given some of the rhetoric we have

:42:19.:42:22.

seen from his ministerial colleagues and others that people may have a

:42:23.:42:25.

reasonable suspicion that the government might seek to use these

:42:26.:42:29.

powers in a very pernicious way going up the particular groups of

:42:30.:42:33.

people they happen not to be happy about the practices of. Does he not

:42:34.:42:38.

accept that is a reasonable suspicion to have? I do not, really,

:42:39.:42:42.

because after all, I am the Minister and I will be in charge of this

:42:43.:42:45.

until the Prime Minister decides otherwise and I think he has had

:42:46.:42:52.

enough time to judged whether I am sincere. In the proposals we are

:42:53.:42:57.

putting forward today there have to be three year's data before we can

:42:58.:43:03.

introduce a cap, we have two, responding in part to what is

:43:04.:43:07.

honourable friend said, we have to allow the organisation where there

:43:08.:43:11.

is some concern, we have to allow them the opportunity to explain why

:43:12.:43:14.

the level of spending is appropriate. There are now, partly

:43:15.:43:19.

through the good offices of the honourable members in this House and

:43:20.:43:22.

the other House, greater safeguards to ensure there can be no abuse. I

:43:23.:43:29.

am a bit confused to know what the cost will be of this. In terms of

:43:30.:43:35.

Minister of civil servants sitting down, sifting through mountains of

:43:36.:43:39.

data from every council, every body that are covered by it to determine

:43:40.:43:44.

whether or not something is being abused when from his own lips he has

:43:45.:43:47.

just admitted he does not know if there was any abuse. If there is not

:43:48.:43:52.

a problem, why are we bringing in this very expensive and I think

:43:53.:43:59.

totally possible -- impossible system to regulate. I would put him

:44:00.:44:03.

to the fact that there are estimates, while there has not been,

:44:04.:44:08.

because there has not been the transparency clause is applied,

:44:09.:44:11.

estimates that the public sector as a whole spends on average 0.14% of

:44:12.:44:18.

its total pay bill on facility time. The civil service spends 0.07%, half

:44:19.:44:24.

of that, and the private sector spends 0.04% and I can promise him

:44:25.:44:29.

that if he multiplies up the pay bill of the public sector by that

:44:30.:44:32.

percentage, he will arrive at a very large figure indeed and a great deal

:44:33.:44:36.

more than the cost of implementing these clauses. I will make progress.

:44:37.:44:43.

I will be generous again, that I am going to try and make some progress.

:44:44.:44:48.

In addition, as I indicated to the honourable member, the cap may be

:44:49.:44:58.

these applied for as long as necessary for individual employers,

:44:59.:45:01.

a temporary lifting of the cup or one or more specific employers and

:45:02.:45:04.

we propose to use it in circumstances where the employer and

:45:05.:45:09.

ministers consider it necessary. We envisage that should a particular

:45:10.:45:12.

employer experience they need for more facility time, perhaps during a

:45:13.:45:17.

period of change of following a particular incident, ministers can

:45:18.:45:22.

allow this to respond to the circumstance. The reserve power this

:45:23.:45:28.

amendment would deliver is considerably improved and I would

:45:29.:45:31.

urge the House to support it. I commend these amendments to the

:45:32.:45:38.

House. The question is the government amendment a Lords

:45:39.:45:45.

amendment to be made. I want to make it clear right at the outset that we

:45:46.:45:49.

remain opposed to this bill and despite some of the changes that it

:45:50.:45:56.

has undergone in the other place, it remains a dreadful mean-spirited

:45:57.:45:58.

partisan piece of legislation. Having got that off my chest, I want

:45:59.:46:04.

to recognise that members in the other players have made a valiant

:46:05.:46:08.

attempt to make a silk purse out of this particular malformed thing.

:46:09.:46:14.

After today it may hand up being a slightly less ugly thing but not the

:46:15.:46:28.

less will remain. Many of the changes peers made to the bill

:46:29.:46:32.

welcome if we consider the crudeness of the bill in its original form.

:46:33.:46:38.

Turning to the first group of Lords amendments we are considering in

:46:39.:46:41.

this group and the government's response, Lords amendment to to

:46:42.:46:47.

clause four of the bill was passed in 320 one votes to 281 requiring

:46:48.:46:53.

the government to commission a review of electronic voting in

:46:54.:46:58.

industrial action ballots within six months of Royal assent and after the

:46:59.:47:01.

review, amendment to would require the government to publish a strategy

:47:02.:47:07.

for rolling out electronic voting. The government's amendment Awe are

:47:08.:47:13.

considering would revise the amendment to state ministers would

:47:14.:47:16.

only be required to publish a response to the review but not take

:47:17.:47:20.

further action to introduce e-balloting. The government has

:47:21.:47:26.

consistently resistant e-balloting on the grounds they had concerns

:47:27.:47:30.

about the safety of this. Despite the fact that the Conservative Party

:47:31.:47:37.

use electronic ballots for the selection of the London mayoral

:47:38.:47:41.

candidate. Although I suppose they may be regretting that given the

:47:42.:47:44.

poor performance of the candidate they selected using that particular

:47:45.:47:48.

method and perhaps that explains the government's concern. It is clear

:47:49.:47:52.

that the government's real objection to e-balloting and workplace ballot

:47:53.:47:58.

in which we argue for successfully in the south and the other place has

:47:59.:48:03.

been that they do not want high turnouts in these ballots, because

:48:04.:48:07.

that would mean there is new threshold barriers would be more

:48:08.:48:11.

easily reached if more people were more easily able to vote. Not only

:48:12.:48:15.

will all ballots for industrial action require more than 50% turnout

:48:16.:48:22.

under the bill, but those working in the loosely defined important public

:48:23.:48:26.

service group will face an additional hurdle of needing a 40%

:48:27.:48:31.

yes vote from all those eligible to vote. And that means these

:48:32.:48:37.

thresholds place higher requirements on the industrial action ballot of

:48:38.:48:40.

this kind than on any other democratic process within the United

:48:41.:48:45.

Kingdom. For example, 50% turnout threshold was not reached for the

:48:46.:48:50.

last London mayoral election almost local government and devolved

:48:51.:48:56.

elections. The government's tabled amendment Alpha, revising the Lords

:48:57.:48:58.

amendment we are considering a day it is agreed that ministers should

:48:59.:49:04.

be required to commission ended independent review on the use of

:49:05.:49:08.

e-balloting within six months of Royal assent. It is agreed that it

:49:09.:49:12.

will be possible to run pilots as part of that review but it is

:49:13.:49:17.

proposing that after the review ministers would need to publish a

:49:18.:49:21.

response but not necessarily to take any further action and there would

:49:22.:49:26.

be no requirement to publish a strategy for rolling out electronic

:49:27.:49:31.

voting. I will give way. I am grateful to my honourable friend. Is

:49:32.:49:36.

there not a slight concern that this is a delaying tactic by the

:49:37.:49:40.

government that does not in tend to introduce these measures and given

:49:41.:49:44.

that in 2016 many people are quite used to banking online, registering

:49:45.:49:49.

to vote online, submitting their tax returns online, do not these

:49:50.:49:55.

questions about these questions and anonymity for by the wayside? I take

:49:56.:50:02.

the minister his words at when he says this is not his intention but

:50:03.:50:07.

to coin a phrase, here's a here today, gone today Minister and I say

:50:08.:50:12.

that from experience as a former minister myself. Somebody else

:50:13.:50:15.

eventually may well in the future occupy his place and may well not

:50:16.:50:20.

have the good intentions that he has outlined to the House today on the

:50:21.:50:24.

record. We have do legislate for that possibility rather than assume

:50:25.:50:28.

that somebody with goodwill will occupy that seat in the future. It

:50:29.:50:38.

is proposing after the review it would not have to publish a

:50:39.:50:42.

strategy. B be clear about this, we do not think the government's

:50:43.:50:47.

amendment is necessary and we accept, and I do except it has moved

:50:48.:50:53.

a long way in accepting the review, pilots and requirements before

:50:54.:50:55.

Parliament and accepting the need to consult experts and get advice and

:50:56.:50:59.

recommendations and the need to commission a report within six

:51:00.:51:03.

months of the passing of the act. These are significant changes and go

:51:04.:51:08.

part of the way to achieving what we have argued for right from the start

:51:09.:51:11.

of the bill in the Commons and indeed, they achieved most of what

:51:12.:51:15.

was agreed by peers in the other place on a cross-party basis with

:51:16.:51:19.

crosspatch support down in the Lords. I give way.

:51:20.:51:25.

As someone who considered that electronic balloting is probably the

:51:26.:51:32.

right way to go, would he not recognise the ministers and the

:51:33.:51:34.

Government 's progress in this direction, and welcome that? I

:51:35.:51:43.

believe the Minister and any future Minister will ensure that the

:51:44.:51:47.

evidence is looked at and provided the evidence shows electronic

:51:48.:51:50.

balloting is the right way to go, we will go forward with that.

:51:51.:51:55.

Obviously, I can't comment on how long the Minister will remain in

:51:56.:52:01.

this particular post. We will see. But I did, I think, recognise the

:52:02.:52:04.

move that the Government has made and I want to make it clear that I

:52:05.:52:08.

do recognise that, although I've made it clear that we do think this

:52:09.:52:11.

is an unnecessary amendment that the Government is making and that the

:52:12.:52:15.

whole matter could have been dealt with in a much more straightforward

:52:16.:52:19.

manner. But we are where we are having received amendments from the

:52:20.:52:23.

Lords, and that's all we can discuss today. Ultimately, it seems in can

:52:24.:52:29.

either ball that any minister having received a report on how e-balloting

:52:30.:52:34.

could be introduced safely would then denying trade union members the

:52:35.:52:39.

opportunity to participate in a ballot using modern Elektra nick to

:52:40.:52:45.

medication. The only possible reason for ministers to reject an expert

:52:46.:52:49.

report outlining the appropriate way to introduce modern technology and

:52:50.:52:54.

to offer the opportunity for easier participation in a democratic vote

:52:55.:52:58.

would be a desire to suppress turnout. -- electronic

:52:59.:53:01.

communication. That would be the only possible explanation. Thank you

:53:02.:53:06.

for giving way and you come right to the point. He does not have to rely

:53:07.:53:09.

on the goodwill of this minister, who I'm sure the Cabinet supports.

:53:10.:53:20.

The reason I asked him to say the intent of the Government on receipt

:53:21.:53:23.

of the report were that if another minister were tempted to not follow

:53:24.:53:27.

the explicit policy right now he and I could hold him to account in this

:53:28.:53:33.

chamber. Indeed. I don't know whether the future Prime Minister

:53:34.:53:36.

goes well pointing to the Cabinet or not, we will have to wait and see.

:53:37.:53:40.

-- future prime ministers Mr Gove. That is why the Government's

:53:41.:53:46.

amendment is unnecessary and still is likely effect of the acceptance

:53:47.:53:50.

of the rest of the Lords amendment. However, I'm seeking to put on

:53:51.:53:56.

record the fact that should any future Minister take another path

:53:57.:53:59.

having had a clear recommendation on this report, one could only

:54:00.:54:03.

interpret their intentions as being less than honourable if that were

:54:04.:54:07.

the course of action but a future Minister were to take. Could you

:54:08.:54:13.

advise me whether those an order for the House to spend so much time

:54:14.:54:16.

talking about my career prospects because I do not feel they are

:54:17.:54:23.

really helping? Is that good or bad for the House? I am happy to leave

:54:24.:54:28.

him alone for the rest of the debate, apart from the issues that

:54:29.:54:32.

we are discussing here today. If any minister did take that path, there

:54:33.:54:37.

would be considerable anger and opposition not just from us but from

:54:38.:54:40.

other parties and also in the other place who worked so hard to crack

:54:41.:54:44.

this amendment on electronic balloting. In practice, the momentum

:54:45.:54:49.

for e-balloting would be unstoppable if that report was published and

:54:50.:54:53.

comes to those conclusions that we think it probably will. We prefer

:54:54.:54:56.

the Lords amendment and we would seek this afternoon to keep it in

:54:57.:55:02.

the bill. Moving to Lords amendment 17 on facility time, the other part

:55:03.:55:05.

of this group and the Government's motion to disagree with the Lords

:55:06.:55:10.

amendment, and the Government's proposed additions to be reinstated

:55:11.:55:14.

clause 13, if in fact the House decides to reinstate that clause by

:55:15.:55:20.

voting to disagree with the Lords. The laws passed amendment 17 by 248

:55:21.:55:28.

votes to 160, which removed the power for ministers to impose a cap

:55:29.:55:32.

on union facilities by deleting clause 13 from the bill. The

:55:33.:55:37.

Government has tabled a motion this afternoon to disagree with Lords

:55:38.:55:42.

amendment 17 so that they can restore their ability to impose a

:55:43.:55:46.

cap on facility is. They proposed a further amendment to a mentally

:55:47.:55:50.

reinstated clause in line with assurances that they gave in the

:55:51.:56:00.

Lords. And that no caps can be imposed after the first three years.

:56:01.:56:05.

Before ministers could impose a cap, they would need to review the

:56:06.:56:09.

published data on facilities, the cost of facilities for the relevant

:56:10.:56:12.

employer, the nature of the service is run by the public authority, and

:56:13.:56:17.

any particular factors relevant to the employer and relevant matters.

:56:18.:56:22.

They would also need to consider the type of relevant organisation and

:56:23.:56:24.

any relevant matters if the organisation was facing a major

:56:25.:56:28.

restructure. If the Minister has concerns about the level of

:56:29.:56:31.

facilities in a public authority under the provisions that they are

:56:32.:56:35.

posing, they would be to write to the employer expressing their

:56:36.:56:41.

concerns. The ministers seem to skate over this. What is this going

:56:42.:56:49.

to cost the taxpayer in terms of reviewing all this information?

:56:50.:56:51.

Surely if it will be done orally and effectively it will, at great cost

:56:52.:56:57.

to the taxpayer. -- done orally and effectively. Given that the --

:56:58.:57:06.

thoroughly. It is ironic that what my honourable friend is exactly the

:57:07.:57:10.

case. As I said earlier, we are dealing with what we've got back

:57:11.:57:13.

from the laws. We would not wish this to remain in the bill at all

:57:14.:57:17.

and indeed we would support the Lords amendment to remove this from

:57:18.:57:21.

the bill completely. I am simply setting out to the House be

:57:22.:57:27.

consequences of not doing so. The original clause 13 introduced

:57:28.:57:30.

included a reserve power for government ministers to introduce

:57:31.:57:34.

regulations imposing an arbitrary cap on the amount of time which

:57:35.:57:37.

union rights in the public sector can spend in the workplace promoting

:57:38.:57:43.

learning and training opportunities, consulting on redundancies,

:57:44.:57:50.

negotiating better pay and conditions, and even representing

:57:51.:57:52.

members in grievances and disciplinary hearing. We want to

:57:53.:57:56.

make it clear that we agree with the Lords that the clause should have

:57:57.:58:00.

been removed altogether from the bill on facility time. It is an

:58:01.:58:04.

unnecessary interference in the conduct of good industrial

:58:05.:58:08.

relations. The Government's professed desire to support

:58:09.:58:18.

devolution, as has been pointed out. It goes against what the Government

:58:19.:58:22.

has said is its professed desire to do a devolution and it has been

:58:23.:58:25.

resisted, as he would know, why the devolved administrations. We

:58:26.:58:30.

acknowledge, however, that significant advances have been made

:58:31.:58:34.

in the Government amendment letter A. It is our position that we

:58:35.:58:38.

support the Lords and we want this removed from the bill. However,

:58:39.:58:49.

government amendment capital they will provide some improvement in a

:58:50.:58:52.

memo in which should never have appeared in the first place.

:58:53.:58:56.

I'd like to speak today on Lords amendment two. Comments I make, I

:58:57.:59:06.

hope are met with a spirit with which I hope to make them. Which is

:59:07.:59:10.

first of all to outline a frustration that I have when I spoke

:59:11.:59:17.

on second reading about thresholds are lots within the private sector.

:59:18.:59:22.

I made clear in those marks at the time that trade unions have a very

:59:23.:59:29.

important part to play in the workforce, whether that be through

:59:30.:59:32.

health and safety, whether it be through bullying, whether it be

:59:33.:59:39.

through contractual negotiations in terms of a changing working

:59:40.:59:43.

practice, funding, many of those issues. I think it is the wrong

:59:44.:59:50.

thing to do to be seen to not appreciate the work that trade

:59:51.:59:53.

unions do, and indeed as I've already mentioned in my intervention

:59:54.:59:58.

there are many shop steward in the country who do an outstanding job. I

:59:59.:00:02.

have had experience when I was a member of Unite with some excellent

:00:03.:00:09.

shop stewards who worked very hard. The reason at the time of that

:00:10.:00:15.

speech that I said I wasn't keen on thresholds her lots in the private

:00:16.:00:19.

sector was because I wondered at the time that the threshold to go on

:00:20.:00:25.

strike in the private sector is much higher than the public sector.

:00:26.:00:30.

Because whatever the rights and wrongs of it may be, going on strike

:00:31.:00:36.

in the public sector generally means there will always be a job to go

:00:37.:00:40.

back to because it is being funded largely through government through

:00:41.:00:44.

taxation. That threshold in the private sector can be guaranteed,

:00:45.:00:50.

especially in smaller businesses. If workforce withdraws its labour, it

:00:51.:00:53.

certainly have gone through a much higher threshold in its own mind to

:00:54.:01:00.

put at risk, perhaps, the ongoing viability of the company. And

:01:01.:01:02.

therefore to take strike action in those circumstances relates to a

:01:03.:01:07.

couple of things. First of all, the conditions that have led to that

:01:08.:01:12.

strike must be very bad indeed. Secondly, there has been a complete

:01:13.:01:15.

breakdown between the shop stewards and the owners of those companies. I

:01:16.:01:23.

cited at the time, and I go back to, the example of Grundig in the 1970s.

:01:24.:01:29.

I will state once more that I do not associate myself with the support of

:01:30.:01:36.

the then Conservative Party in the 1970s to break that strike run by

:01:37.:01:43.

George Ward. Because the conditions that those people were working under

:01:44.:01:48.

were indeed absolutely appalling. Strike action was taken to try and

:01:49.:01:53.

improve the conditions, conditions which today would simply not be

:01:54.:01:57.

acceptable. As I said back at the time, I applaud the law brought in

:01:58.:02:04.

by the last Labour government to give a legal requirement to allow a

:02:05.:02:08.

trade union in the workplace if that is the requirement of members in the

:02:09.:02:14.

workplace. So, I hope the House understands that I feel that it is

:02:15.:02:20.

with a regret that movement wasn't made on not having a threshold

:02:21.:02:24.

turnout in the private sector. The flip side of that is I do believe

:02:25.:02:29.

it's right to have a turnout threshold in the public sector. Yes,

:02:30.:02:34.

I will give way. Is he aware that also a lot of trade unions with

:02:35.:02:40.

their own rule book have thresholds in terms of ensuring that a centre

:02:41.:02:45.

of those that vote after vote in better. The idea that somehow it is

:02:46.:02:53.

uniform across all uniform to let unions or businesses is not the

:02:54.:03:00.

case. -- all unions or businesses. I accept the comment, but it is not

:03:01.:03:06.

uniform across all trade unions and within the public sector, I think

:03:07.:03:14.

the right to a threshold to take action when they raise a lot of

:03:15.:03:16.

employment protection in terms of having jobs to go back to is the

:03:17.:03:21.

right thing. As I say, I'm eating too amendment a two Lords amendment

:03:22.:03:28.

two. What I wanted to say to my honourable friend 's afternoon is

:03:29.:03:33.

that recognising the regret I have over thresholds for the private

:03:34.:03:38.

sector, recognising that I believe that a lecture in balloting will

:03:39.:03:51.

lead to a higher turnout in strike thresholds... As long as it is

:03:52.:03:58.

secure and can be seen to be genuine it is the right thing to do. As a

:03:59.:04:03.

policy goes through it should be applied as quickly as possible

:04:04.:04:09.

because that will enable the private sector to meet those thresholds more

:04:10.:04:15.

easily than perhaps is there now. I just wanted to say that there is a

:04:16.:04:20.

balance to be struck here. There is a balance between ensuring that

:04:21.:04:25.

those in the public sector who caused great disruption to people

:04:26.:04:28.

who work in the private actor and may not have the terms and

:04:29.:04:31.

conditions of those in the public sector... Private sector -- I don't

:04:32.:04:42.

have that same regard in the private actor and members can refer back to

:04:43.:04:48.

my comments in the very first reading of the second reading of

:04:49.:04:51.

this bill and the comments I made them to explain further. I think the

:04:52.:04:55.

approach taken by the Government is the right one on an electronic

:04:56.:04:59.

balloting but when it can be proven to be safe and reliable but it is

:05:00.:05:04.

put in place. I do believe that there is an unintended consequence

:05:05.:05:07.

of this bill but it's going to have a big reflect on union members in

:05:08.:05:11.

the private sector than it will in the public. Thank you. What we've

:05:12.:05:27.

seen in the last few days in the media, and I want to commend

:05:28.:05:30.

government ministers for this, is the performance of somersaults of

:05:31.:05:36.

Olympian proportions. Having voted down sensible amendments at

:05:37.:05:41.

committee and third Reading to allow for an alternative voting in

:05:42.:05:44.

industrial action ballot, many find themselves in a position so out of

:05:45.:05:48.

step with the work of trade unions and how trade unions organise

:05:49.:05:54.

themselves or even Thatcherites are seen as a friend of the worker in

:05:55.:06:00.

comparison. -- that even. If I was a member of the Conservative Party, I

:06:01.:06:04.

would be very worried about that. I'd like to welcome this line of

:06:05.:06:07.

change. As we have argued previously, if e-balloting is good

:06:08.:06:15.

enough for the Conservative Party's vote for London Mayor, surely it is

:06:16.:06:18.

good enough elsewhere. I cannot for the life of me understand why the

:06:19.:06:24.

Government are arguing against a system that the Conservative Party

:06:25.:06:27.

thought was good enough for the selection of a candidate for London

:06:28.:06:31.

Mayor. Listen very carefully to what the Minister's said and the reasons

:06:32.:06:35.

he gave for the Conservative Party using that choice, and denying it to

:06:36.:06:42.

the trade unions. Can I say to him gently that if there was a vote

:06:43.:06:46.

taken now between trade unions and the current Mayor of London as to

:06:47.:06:51.

who has disrupted the public's lives, I don't think the answer

:06:52.:06:54.

would be quite what the Government would think.

:06:55.:06:59.

We firmly believe access to electronic balloting will enhance

:07:00.:07:06.

engagement and participation as today more people use electronic

:07:07.:07:09.

devices every day to communicate. We believe online balloting and we

:07:10.:07:18.

cannot father the reasoning given in relation to suggesting that online

:07:19.:07:25.

balloting is unsafe and secure. I heard the honourable ladies think

:07:26.:07:29.

she had difficulty in conducting and accessing that ballot. I was going

:07:30.:07:34.

to ask a number of questions. I was going to ask if the e-mail that

:07:35.:07:38.

accompanied the link to the ballot paper said that if you press this

:07:39.:07:44.

link, this website may be unsafe and an secure. Or perhaps it may have

:07:45.:07:48.

said that clicking this link may lead to a fraudulent act. Does it

:07:49.:07:55.

mean the honour roll member, for Richmond Park, what does it mean for

:07:56.:07:59.

him? Does it mean here is unsafe and an secure? Or is it the case that

:08:00.:08:05.

some -- some government members are nodding their heads! Or is it the

:08:06.:08:11.

case that only Conservative Party members have access to safe and

:08:12.:08:16.

secure e-mails, have more privileges than you would find on a gold

:08:17.:08:22.

American Express card? Because that is what the trade union movement are

:08:23.:08:27.

asking. They are asking themselves, why is it one rule for them and

:08:28.:08:31.

another rule for the rest of us? The other issue which I I know has been

:08:32.:08:41.

raised before, is that the number of postboxes across the UK has reduced

:08:42.:08:45.

by 17% in the last ten years so it is difficult for people to

:08:46.:08:51.

participate in a postal ballot. Electronic balloting... I give way.

:08:52.:08:57.

Would my honourable friend agree that with the increase in postal

:08:58.:09:00.

charges that it will cost more to do postal balloting to? I do agree and

:09:01.:09:08.

also take the view that electronic balloting is more efficient, and

:09:09.:09:16.

unlike postal balloting, where the problem is the prolonged length of

:09:17.:09:19.

the dispute because of the length of time it takes, electronic balloting

:09:20.:09:23.

would allow greater flexibility and efficiency. We are disappointed that

:09:24.:09:30.

the honourable member has said the pilots does not extend to workplace

:09:31.:09:35.

balloting because that would increase tomography in the

:09:36.:09:38.

workplace. The TUC have previously argued there is no evidence that

:09:39.:09:42.

workers feel intimidated into betting a particular way when

:09:43.:09:46.

ballots take place in the workplace as has been argued by the

:09:47.:09:53.

government. There are amendment effectively means that ministers

:09:54.:09:56.

would only have to publish a response to the review and therefore

:09:57.:10:00.

would not be obligated to bring forward the strategy to allow

:10:01.:10:03.

electronic voting. That is simply unacceptable. The Lords amendment is

:10:04.:10:10.

actually a moderate one. The question before us today is whether

:10:11.:10:13.

the government response is good enough or whether it weakens the

:10:14.:10:16.

intent behind the Lords amendment. Having listened carefully to what

:10:17.:10:20.

the Minister has said, we can only conclude that the amendment before

:10:21.:10:24.

us does weaken the other place's intentions. The government are

:10:25.:10:33.

proposing to revise the amendment so they do not have to take any action.

:10:34.:10:42.

To do nothing, no strategy on how to proceed and therefore no actual

:10:43.:10:45.

commitment to allowing electronic balloting in the future. That is

:10:46.:10:49.

absurd. If the government truly are intent on modernising the law, they

:10:50.:10:53.

would allow for electronic balloting and allow for secure workplace

:10:54.:10:57.

balloting and it will be interesting to hear the Minister's response in

:10:58.:11:01.

that regard. Electronic balloting will bond and I is our democracy and

:11:02.:11:11.

inclusion. -- will modernise. Having such a clause in the bill signals

:11:12.:11:18.

intent. It signals intent that the government will interfere with the

:11:19.:11:23.

arrangements, basic industrial industrial relations, not just that

:11:24.:11:26.

of devolved administrations that that of local authorities across the

:11:27.:11:32.

UK. As Lord Kearsley put it in the other place, the government are

:11:33.:11:37.

saying the cost should be proportionate to benefits however

:11:38.:11:40.

this is fully secured through clause 12. There is no need for reserve

:11:41.:11:50.

powers in clause 13. It has its own democratic mandate and is answerable

:11:51.:11:54.

to its own electorate to the cost. Given the financial pressures, do we

:11:55.:11:59.

think they are incapable of making this judgment? While we acknowledge

:12:00.:12:03.

that some amendments have been made by the government possibly not good

:12:04.:12:09.

enough, any attempt wide government to instruct institutions on how to

:12:10.:12:13.

treat workers should be robustly resisted.

:12:14.:12:23.

Representatives promote training opportunities, negotiate better pay,

:12:24.:12:28.

terms and conditions by employees, amongst many of their roles and

:12:29.:12:36.

responsibilities. Limiting the role of unions will have a damaging

:12:37.:12:45.

impact on workers across the UK. They play an important role in

:12:46.:12:52.

maintaining the democracy in the workplace. In Scotland, the SNP

:12:53.:13:01.

government has taken a different approach, a modern, approach to

:13:02.:13:08.

industrial relations and believe unions at the heart of being able to

:13:09.:13:13.

achieve their work. The UK Government should offer trade unions

:13:14.:13:16.

are social partnership approach, not launch more attacks against them.

:13:17.:13:24.

The industrial relations mechanisms should be devolved at a local level.

:13:25.:13:31.

It beggars belief that the UK Government feels it should dictate

:13:32.:13:37.

policy in this areas. There will be no formal opportunity for the

:13:38.:13:41.

Scottish Government to influence such regulations. Today, we need a

:13:42.:13:44.

commitment from the UK Government that the rights of workers across

:13:45.:13:49.

the UK will not be restricted by the imposition of this. Julie passage of

:13:50.:14:07.

the bill, -- during the passage. It was ask... The Minister replies

:14:08.:14:17.

devolved administration would maintain some control. I asked at

:14:18.:14:23.

the time but it seems the UK Government seems intent on dictating

:14:24.:14:30.

to devolved administrations. The Minister answered the government

:14:31.:14:34.

would not change as proposals relating to facility time that the

:14:35.:14:37.

current bill, however, in an infamous letter leaked by the

:14:38.:14:44.

Socialist worker newspaper and published widely in other media

:14:45.:14:48.

outlets, contained a number of concessions that the government

:14:49.:14:52.

planned to make to the bill during its passage in the House of lords.

:14:53.:14:58.

It would be helpful if the Minister could confirm today that devolved

:14:59.:15:03.

administrations will maintain this controls on facility time. We on

:15:04.:15:09.

these benches will continue to push to derail any attempt at the

:15:10.:15:13.

government to dictate to Scotland and other devolved administrations

:15:14.:15:16.

how it treats its public sector workers. I declare an interest in

:15:17.:15:28.

being a member of the GMB and my wife works for a trade union as

:15:29.:15:32.

well. The cry we have an ear from the Conservative benches is that

:15:33.:15:37.

turnout in union ballots is not high enough. Where before us we have a

:15:38.:15:46.

mechanism to at least assist that to ensure we get more people to

:15:47.:15:50.

participate in terms of e-balloting. What we have before us today is, I

:15:51.:15:56.

think I have seen some pretty poor excuses brought forward, but today's

:15:57.:16:03.

I have to say, must get the prize for the poorest argument. Why we

:16:04.:16:09.

cannot introduce e-balloting for trade union ballots. This government

:16:10.:16:17.

prides itself in that it wants to be an electronic government, everything

:16:18.:16:21.

from driving licence right through to the introduction of the Universal

:16:22.:16:24.

Credit which you can only do on line. We heard from the Minister

:16:25.:16:30.

that he was saying that somehow the government needs to be convinced

:16:31.:16:36.

that this is secure. But didn't actually articulate on numerous

:16:37.:16:39.

interventions on their the reasons why he thought the process of

:16:40.:16:44.

e-balloting was in any way in secure. I respect his position more

:16:45.:16:49.

if the government had come forward and said these are the reasons why.

:16:50.:16:56.

The idea of a review is clearly the classic civil servants kick into the

:16:57.:17:01.

long grass approach to the subject. I don't want to take time because

:17:02.:17:04.

there are lots of members who wish to speak that I would like to draw

:17:05.:17:07.

the honourable gentleman's attention to an election conducted in the

:17:08.:17:14.

Philippines where interestingly, a company chaired by a former Labour

:17:15.:17:18.

minister was given charge of conducting online voting for the

:17:19.:17:24.

entire Philippines population. There was a hack, 70 million people's

:17:25.:17:29.

identity data was stolen, there was then a report that said that every

:17:30.:17:32.

registered voter's Dato was open to abuse. -- data. I know this

:17:33.:17:40.

government loves things foreign but can I just say to the Minister with

:17:41.:17:45.

great respect, he doesn't need to go very far to look for examples where

:17:46.:17:52.

electronic voting worked. I refer to the pilot of 2004 in the north-east

:17:53.:17:59.

where the electoral commission's report afterwards found no problems

:18:00.:18:05.

in terms of it. He doesn't have too... If he wants to go on a

:18:06.:18:09.

fact-finding trip to the Philippines, we would all welcome

:18:10.:18:12.

him to go there, but he just have to look at what is happening here. He

:18:13.:18:19.

also put up a very flimsy defence that it it is all right for the

:18:20.:18:23.

Conservative Party, it is not all right for the trade union movement.

:18:24.:18:28.

I would have respected his position if he had come back with concrete

:18:29.:18:33.

reasons why he thought electric... He quits the Philippines but did he

:18:34.:18:37.

actually look at the electoral commission report on electronic

:18:38.:18:41.

voting in 2004? Because that stated quite clearly there was no issue

:18:42.:18:47.

around fraud or any other risk to security. The fact the government

:18:48.:18:53.

then got cold feet over the rather hysterical campaign against postal

:18:54.:18:56.

voting is neither here nor there. I'm grateful to my noble friend and

:18:57.:19:00.

is not just the electoral commission, it is also the electoral

:19:01.:19:06.

reform Society who obviously are experts at e-voting. They conduct a

:19:07.:19:11.

number of internal e-voting elections for the Labour Party and

:19:12.:19:15.

would be quite capable of running similar elections will be trade

:19:16.:19:19.

union movement to. My honourable friend makes a good point because

:19:20.:19:22.

the Minister then tried to back into the corner that somehow it was so

:19:23.:19:27.

important these boats that therefore you could not do them and electronic

:19:28.:19:38.

way. -- these votes. Other organisations are happy with the

:19:39.:19:41.

security of this method. The Minister may not think this is

:19:42.:19:47.

important but said to my constituency, the person running the

:19:48.:19:50.

local hospital is a pretty important decision. It is used by many

:19:51.:19:56.

organisations, including private companies and charities, to consult

:19:57.:20:02.

their members. Organisations like the electoral reform Society which

:20:03.:20:07.

are used by many organisations to conduct ballots have not only

:20:08.:20:16.

attract record of impartiality that are respected in this country and

:20:17.:20:20.

internationally. I think it is pretty the better it to come back

:20:21.:20:26.

and say we need the... We don't need the evidence. In terms of the other

:20:27.:20:31.

witness in this, I am not convinced that they will after we've had this

:20:32.:20:36.

so-called review, actually implement the proposals. It was a proposal

:20:37.:20:40.

that came from trade unions, I congratulate them that have been

:20:41.:20:46.

back in theirs. It is a move forward that would improve access to voting

:20:47.:20:51.

for the members and improve the situation. Briefly, on the facility

:20:52.:20:57.

cap. This one, I think is just remarkable. The Minister clearly

:20:58.:21:02.

stated he didn't know what the abuse was. If you do not know what it is,

:21:03.:21:07.

why are you trying to fix it? We all know why he has tried to fix it,

:21:08.:21:10.

that is because it is the way of attacking the shady unions, but the

:21:11.:21:13.

system they have come up with in terms of this cap -- attacking the

:21:14.:21:22.

trade unions. He has not said how much it is better cost to sift

:21:23.:21:25.

through these organisations and then go into detail for those individuals

:21:26.:21:33.

to justify why they go in Arab -- need facility time.

:21:34.:21:44.

We have another example of this Government saying it committed

:21:45.:21:50.

devolutionary decision-making to local authorities but doing the

:21:51.:21:55.

opposite when it comes to dictating to local authorities what they

:21:56.:21:59.

should do. Remember they are democratically accountable and it is

:22:00.:22:02.

up to be electric to decide. The other important thing he didn't

:22:03.:22:10.

touch on is, it is all right talking about... There is no indication

:22:11.:22:18.

given what money is saved by organisations, councils, in having

:22:19.:22:23.

good industrial relations and ensuring redundancies and such are

:22:24.:22:33.

done in an efficient way. I am challenging the Government over the

:22:34.:22:38.

way it is handling the Lords amendment, clearly scrutinised in

:22:39.:22:42.

order to make sure there is evidence behind what is said. Today's example

:22:43.:22:46.

is yet another one we have Government evidence... Can I quickly

:22:47.:22:57.

declare my interest. I am a Member of Unite and the GMB and was an

:22:58.:23:05.

official for 17 years. On the issue of evidence would my Honourable

:23:06.:23:08.

Friend agree that the evidential basis for this entire Bill is

:23:09.:23:14.

nonexistent even today as the Bill is passed. Levels of industrial

:23:15.:23:19.

action at at historic lows in the UK and the number of days lost to

:23:20.:23:24.

strikes are down 90% since the 1980s. I'd like my Honourable Friend

:23:25.:23:30.

for the points particular on the levels of intraday -- industrial

:23:31.:23:35.

action at an all-time low. Industrial action occurring is in

:23:36.:23:37.

the public sector where the Government, like today with junior

:23:38.:23:42.

doctors, is failing to negotiate with trade unions. We have to

:23:43.:23:47.

examine why we are in our situation, but the evidence does not sit on the

:23:48.:23:53.

Government's side. I have overseen many industrial action ballot, paper

:23:54.:23:58.

ballots and electronic ballots, and what we have seen is there is a

:23:59.:24:02.

greater engagement with the electronic ballot, and there is a

:24:03.:24:06.

reason for that. It is convenient but also more accurate. We know also

:24:07.:24:11.

that we don't have the issue of papers. Electronic ballots are

:24:12.:24:17.

clear, either yes or no, whereas it can be more ambiguous with all forms

:24:18.:24:23.

of voting, we all experience that on election night, so it is very clear,

:24:24.:24:29.

the intention of the person voting, in electronic ballots. I would say

:24:30.:24:33.

and challenge the Minister in that when he talks about his tour of the

:24:34.:24:38.

world, we are talking about ballots in the UK and evidence base in the

:24:39.:24:42.

UK, and the evidence is overwhelming. I would challenge the

:24:43.:24:48.

Minister and save 100% to show security of electronic balloting.

:24:49.:24:52.

Other countries may not have rigour like this in their processes so I

:24:53.:24:56.

think it is inappropriate to bring them into the equation. I think it

:24:57.:24:59.

was very telling when the Minister was unable to say why it was less

:25:00.:25:06.

safe using electronic balloting than postal balloting. The evidence

:25:07.:25:11.

simply is not there. I would also say that it is very important that

:25:12.:25:18.

the Government realise that in the public sector particularly, the

:25:19.:25:22.

temperature of industrial relations, and why people are expressing a view

:25:23.:25:27.

about the decision-makers on terms and conditions, because it is

:25:28.:25:29.

essential that the Government response to that, therefore a high

:25:30.:25:35.

turnout will help inform the Government in its decision-making

:25:36.:25:39.

processes, and that is vital. Like many colleagues of mine I also want

:25:40.:25:43.

to draw on the point that while the Government depends on electronic

:25:44.:25:48.

means for far more, I would say, serious matters like tax returns,

:25:49.:25:54.

local Government, council tax collection, all done and

:25:55.:25:57.

chronically, driving licence application, the means of Reg chip

:25:58.:26:02.

-- registering to vote in a parliamentary election, and we know

:26:03.:26:06.

many if not all bank transfers of millions of pounds in which the

:26:07.:26:10.

Government will engage is done electronically. So why does a vote

:26:11.:26:16.

of an independent trade union have to have even more rigour than the

:26:17.:26:18.

processes the Government already use? It doesn't add up other than

:26:19.:26:24.

that this is a political tool the Government is using. I want to turn

:26:25.:26:29.

to one more issue on electronic balloting, which is this process of

:26:30.:26:35.

review and roll-out. We do not have confidence in the Government's

:26:36.:26:39.

intentions behind this. I would say that I think the Government should

:26:40.:26:44.

set out today exactly the timetable for this review, saying to start in

:26:45.:26:48.

six months but when will it end? How long will it last? And how will it

:26:49.:26:53.

positively leading to roll out? I would also say that we need to start

:26:54.:26:59.

looking now, enabling trade unions to provide that evidence and build

:27:00.:27:04.

the evidence on pilots which they can run in parallel to prove to you

:27:05.:27:10.

that electronic voting is safe, accurate and gets a clear result on

:27:11.:27:14.

the intentions of the workers over the dispute. I also want to move on

:27:15.:27:22.

to the issue of the cap, the facilities time cap, because I think

:27:23.:27:26.

what was behind what the Minister was saying is again there was no

:27:27.:27:30.

evidence. If we look at the cost, the cost of administration, the time

:27:31.:27:36.

taken out of ministers hands reviewing what the administration

:27:37.:27:41.

has put together doing this review, how only personnel... Will hell

:27:42.:27:45.

whole unit be set up concerning itself with this review, a review

:27:46.:27:52.

over three years, and what about the employers? It public sector

:27:53.:27:55.

employers will also have to dedicate loads of time providing evidence

:27:56.:27:59.

into that review, time they do not have and as we see they are already

:28:00.:28:05.

challenge with cuts to local Government, NHS and elsewhere, how

:28:06.:28:09.

will they have the resources to supply the Minister with the

:28:10.:28:12.

information that he will spend hours, I am sure, day and night,

:28:13.:28:17.

scrutinising, to make an assessment whether or not there has been access

:28:18.:28:21.

of cost in place. How will the Minister balance the minuscule cast

:28:22.:28:30.

of the facilities time with the amount of money trade unions save

:28:31.:28:36.

through not going to employment tribunal is, not seeing sickness

:28:37.:28:42.

levels so high, and adding value to organisations, increasing

:28:43.:28:44.

productivity. How will the Minister address that? I would like a

:28:45.:28:48.

response to how that particular question. On health and safety,

:28:49.:28:52.

learning, and the value wrap spring, how will he assess that cost. At

:28:53.:29:05.

every stage in this Bill I have asked what the calamity years in

:29:06.:29:09.

industrial relations in our land that requires us to bring forward

:29:10.:29:13.

new primary legislation, and I have yet to receive an answer to that

:29:14.:29:17.

because of course there is none. This proposal is unique amongst many

:29:18.:29:21.

we have considered in this House because it is not a proposal to

:29:22.:29:26.

change public policy as a result of a prominent identified in society,

:29:27.:29:33.

but something motivated purely by the ideology of factions inside the

:29:34.:29:38.

Conservative Party who have scores to settle and whose antipathy

:29:39.:29:42.

towards the trade unions is manifest. I know we have heard some

:29:43.:29:46.

of them, we are -- they are not in their place at the moment, some

:29:47.:29:50.

members do not share that view, but overall that is where the centre of

:29:51.:29:55.

political gravity lies in the party of Government. It has said in itself

:29:56.:30:01.

-- has set in itself an attitude towards trade unions which is not

:30:02.:30:05.

shared by any other Government in Europe nor indeed in the advanced

:30:06.:30:10.

capitalist world. Why is it that this Government is going so far out

:30:11.:30:13.

on a limb to set itself apart from everyone else? I accept that the

:30:14.:30:18.

Bill we have before us today with these amendments and the

:30:19.:30:21.

Government's position is slightly less bad than it was on the 11th of

:30:22.:30:25.

January when we had the second reading, but the is no doubt, this

:30:26.:30:30.

is still very much an anti-trade union Bill. This is designed to

:30:31.:30:37.

detail the expression, capacity and effectiveness of free trade Unions

:30:38.:30:42.

in our country. I have to speculate if this is a genuine change of heart

:30:43.:30:45.

on behalf of the Government or whether other factors may be

:30:46.:30:52.

involved in its consideration of how many things you can fright on at

:30:53.:30:57.

once. I wonder of the proximity of the referendum in June has persuaded

:30:58.:31:03.

the Government that it ought to try not to engage into larger conflict

:31:04.:31:06.

with the trade unions of this land because it needs their support to

:31:07.:31:11.

secure the Government position of staying in the EU. That is why I

:31:12.:31:15.

think we all want to see the words written down in black and white

:31:16.:31:20.

rather than Act set the spoken Word of ministers at the dispatch box at

:31:21.:31:27.

this time. I am glad that in Scotland the situation is different

:31:28.:31:32.

as my model friend the Member of the Glasgow South West confirmed, the

:31:33.:31:35.

Scottish Government is committed to working in partnership with Scottish

:31:36.:31:38.

trade unions to build our economy and build prosperity, and we believe

:31:39.:31:43.

they are a vital component of civil society. If my party is re-elected

:31:44.:31:48.

this note -- next week we will pledge to do Everything within the

:31:49.:31:52.

law we can do to compromise this Bill and prevent them frustrating

:31:53.:31:58.

the operation for free trade unions. I want to dwell on two things under

:31:59.:32:03.

consideration, the first is electronic ballots. When the

:32:04.:32:07.

Government first announced the attitude to electronic balloting, it

:32:08.:32:11.

seemed like an analog Government in a digital age scared of the

:32:12.:32:14.

possibility of electronic balloting, and it is a matter of irony that it

:32:15.:32:21.

takes the contemporary modern and forward-thinking institution of the

:32:22.:32:24.

House of Lords to persuade them of the error of their ways. I accept

:32:25.:32:29.

what the Minister said and the Government's position that they have

:32:30.:32:33.

moved slightly. They can no longer defend the intervention, which is to

:32:34.:32:37.

say they will not allow an electronic balloting in a society

:32:38.:32:40.

where that is the norm and commonplace for most citizens. You

:32:41.:32:46.

are looking at me, Mr Deputy Speaker, I will try to be as quick

:32:47.:32:51.

as I can. That is why we are concerned, when the Minister gets

:32:52.:32:55.

himself a get out clause, if he had come with an amendment that said

:32:56.:32:58.

that unless it can be shown that there are clear problems to the

:32:59.:33:04.

introduction and roll-out of electronic balloting it will

:33:05.:33:08.

go-ahead, we might have sympathy, but he is trying to give himself a

:33:09.:33:12.

get out clause to rent this happening in future. And in our

:33:13.:33:16.

post-referendum situation he may not be so well disposed to favouring the

:33:17.:33:21.

trade unions. They think it is up in defence about a statutory matter. It

:33:22.:33:26.

is only statutory in the sense that trade unions operate within the

:33:27.:33:32.

framework of legislation, but so do charities and private companies, so

:33:33.:33:36.

indeed do political parties. I find that a thin defence. I will wind up

:33:37.:33:41.

by talking about the facility cap. I did want to make this point because

:33:42.:33:47.

I have witnessed some bizarre debates in this chamber, but this

:33:48.:33:51.

one is frankly bordering on the surreal. We are being asked to pass

:33:52.:33:58.

legislation to try and prevent something which the Minister accepts

:33:59.:34:04.

we don't know exists. LAUGHTER. This is fantasy legislation and

:34:05.:34:11.

lawmaking, and I think the proposals for the facility time cap should be

:34:12.:34:15.

checked and weight should reject the Government's attempt, and if we get

:34:16.:34:21.

the chance, vote against this legislation. I will be brief, I want

:34:22.:34:27.

to welcome the Government's shift in position particularly relating to

:34:28.:34:32.

the point on check off, because I don't think it has any intrinsic

:34:33.:34:39.

cost to the employer. It is a check in a box on a payroll system. But I

:34:40.:34:45.

see this shift in viewpoint as testament to the hard work of

:34:46.:34:48.

thousands of ordinary working people who in their own time take on

:34:49.:34:52.

additional responsibilities to support and protect their fellow

:34:53.:34:58.

workers rights, often not a task that is thanked either by their

:34:59.:35:02.

co-workers or employers on some occasions. They really do go above

:35:03.:35:07.

and beyond in that role. The trade unions have a history of

:35:08.:35:10.

International is and I want to use this occasion to raise the point

:35:11.:35:15.

that tomorrow is international Workers Memorial Day, a day

:35:16.:35:20.

supported by the TUC, the trade union movement as a whole, lawyers,

:35:21.:35:25.

the Health and Safety Executive, and I will not be able to attend the

:35:26.:35:29.

events tomorrow so I want to pay tribute to Herbert Stiles, who

:35:30.:35:38.

religiously organises this event in Immingham, groups B and Cleethorpes.

:35:39.:35:43.

The event is growing every year -- back Grimsby and Cleethorpes. I am

:35:44.:35:49.

grateful to the work he puts in to take the time Tehran that those who

:35:50.:35:54.

lost their lives in the course of their work -- the time to remember

:35:55.:36:04.

those. Someone will be there in my place to lay a wreath, and I would

:36:05.:36:09.

like that day recorded on our calendars. Can the Minister assist

:36:10.:36:14.

in getting that recorded in calendars and diaries across the UK?

:36:15.:36:23.

This is supposed to be a modernised, that was the word the Minister used,

:36:24.:36:29.

modernised ballot. It is trying to stop people taking strike action. If

:36:30.:36:34.

electronic balloting was allowed he knows the turnout would go way

:36:35.:36:41.

beyond the limits. The party opposite have realised they will set

:36:42.:36:42.

themselves a tug of war. They have set a precedent. Cuban

:36:43.:36:55.

genuine, -- if you are genuine, but have as many as possible. In the

:36:56.:37:00.

1980s when the Tory government tried to control the rights of people to

:37:01.:37:06.

take industrial action, they were told that if you do away with

:37:07.:37:11.

workforce ballots, you will reduce the turnout and the figures proved

:37:12.:37:16.

that for over 30 years the average turnout was 80%. If you get 40% now

:37:17.:37:23.

you are doing well. In terms of facility time, this shows the real

:37:24.:37:28.

ignorance from the party opposite. They don't know what is going on in

:37:29.:37:34.

the world. In 1986I spent every day for a fortnight visiting a hospital

:37:35.:37:42.

and a man who had been buried under 50 tonnes of coal. Five years later

:37:43.:37:51.

I was working for Newcastle City Council encouraging home care

:37:52.:37:55.

workers who were working themselves into an early grave to say it is in

:37:56.:38:00.

your interest with retirement agreement when they would not talk

:38:01.:38:04.

to personal officers because they were frightened of the authority

:38:05.:38:09.

figure. I was able to convince them that it was the right thing for them

:38:10.:38:17.

to do. What is proposed now from the likes of meat will not be there,

:38:18.:38:21.

they will have some clerk who will be filling in forms to send the

:38:22.:38:25.

London for someone in London. It is an absolute nonsense and should be

:38:26.:38:29.

thrown out. I thank him for giving way. For the

:38:30.:38:47.

past 50 or 60 years, every Tory government manifesto has had a

:38:48.:38:53.

clause to protect trade unions. He referred to facility time, it shows

:38:54.:39:03.

how out of touch they are. Any major employer and welcomes facilitating

:39:04.:39:05.

because it saves them a lot of money in the end. That's absolutely right.

:39:06.:39:14.

If they had spoken to enable reasonable employer 's company, any

:39:15.:39:17.

trade union, they would get a picture of the real story. I realise

:39:18.:39:28.

that time is short so I will be brief. Welcome as it is that the

:39:29.:39:33.

government have been forced into a series of rather embarrassing

:39:34.:39:39.

U-turns, the bill, and I say this from our side, which does not

:39:40.:39:46.

receive funding from the trade union movement, we regard this not as a

:39:47.:39:48.

sensible attempt to look at some of the issues around party funding

:39:49.:39:51.

which clearly should be done in the round and fairly, and we would

:39:52.:39:59.

support, but this always was set out to be eight cynical politically

:40:00.:40:02.

motivated bill that undermines the important role that trade unions

:40:03.:40:08.

play in the democratic process. It is very encouraging that the other

:40:09.:40:14.

place have acted in a measured way, in a cross-party way and rather than

:40:15.:40:19.

simply striking down a raft of the bill as many would have liked to

:40:20.:40:23.

have seen, have suggested cross-party sensible measured

:40:24.:40:28.

amendments. I will briefly give way. I thank him for giving way. It is

:40:29.:40:37.

amazing that they have resorted to a high-handed regulation. It said set

:40:38.:40:43.

out as an extremely draconian bill that was not done in any

:40:44.:40:47.

collaborative way. I do think this change of heart, and it has not gone

:40:48.:40:56.

far enough, it is clear that the government have realised they cannot

:40:57.:40:58.

make enemies of the trade unions when they need that movement to

:40:59.:41:06.

secure a Yes vote in the EU referendum. I looked bored to

:41:07.:41:10.

working with the trade unionists and people with all parties to achieve

:41:11.:41:17.

that. On this particular amendment, the government have made a U-turn

:41:18.:41:22.

and it is welcome and we will not be opposing it but they have simply

:41:23.:41:27.

failed to make the case that electronic voting is not a sensible,

:41:28.:41:31.

moderate way forward. That exposes the fact that what this is about is

:41:32.:41:36.

trying to stop trade unions getting to the threshold rather than

:41:37.:41:38.

sensibly reforming the system, something we would oppose. We will

:41:39.:41:44.

continue to make the case for that alongside others. I believe the

:41:45.:41:49.

government should think again about their attitude to trade unions

:41:50.:41:53.

during this and work together with parties. I draw attention to the my

:41:54.:42:02.

membership of the GMB and Unison and I want to make one brief point in

:42:03.:42:08.

relation to my early intervention on the Welsh government. The minister

:42:09.:42:11.

is placing the government on a collision course with the worst

:42:12.:42:14.

government which will end up in the Supreme Court at great cost to the

:42:15.:42:18.

public pulse on facility time and where the UK Government will come on

:42:19.:42:24.

its own legal advice can lose, so I ask the Minister to reconsider his

:42:25.:42:29.

approach to this area of the bill. The question is, the government

:42:30.:42:31.

amendment to be made. The question is that the amendment

:42:32.:44:20.

to be made, as many of that opinion. The ayes to the right, 312, the noes

:44:21.:51:04.

to the left, 260. The ayes to the right, 312, the noes

:51:05.:56:33.

to the left, 260. The ayes have it. Unlock.

:56:34.:56:37.

Under the order of the House earlier today I must now bring to conclusion

:56:38.:56:44.

proceedings on consideration of the first group. I called the Minister

:56:45.:56:51.

to move amendment be. The question is that the amendment be made, as

:56:52.:56:58.

many are of that opinion say I, of the country, no, the ayes have it.

:56:59.:57:05.

Amendments two as amendment. The question is that the amendment be

:57:06.:57:13.

agreed to. The ayes have it. Minister to move to disagree to

:57:14.:57:20.

Lords amendments 17 formally. The question is that this has disagrees

:57:21.:57:28.

with the Lord in amendment 17. Division, clear the lobby.

:57:29.:59:29.

The question is that this has disagrees with amendments 17.

:59:30.:59:39.

Tellers for the ayes and tellers for the noes. Thank you very much.

:59:40.:00:58.

Order, order. The eyes to the raid, 307. The nose to the left, 268.

:00:59.:09:31.

As many that opinion, say I. The have it. It will be commuted -- will

:09:32.:10:03.

be considering the Government motion to disagree to Lords amendment

:10:04.:10:07.

eight. Government amendment is key to P, in the blue of Lords

:10:08.:10:13.

amendments seven to eight and nine to 16 and 18 to 29. I called the

:10:14.:10:21.

Minister to move to Italy to Lords amendment one. Madam Deputy Speaker,

:10:22.:10:25.

I beg to move that the house agrees with the words and their amendment

:10:26.:10:28.

one and we will turn to the other amendments made to the Bell Centre

:10:29.:10:34.

left the service, which I hope will be welcomed. These amendments I

:10:35.:10:37.

believe improve the Bell and take account of a number of points of

:10:38.:10:40.

concern raised by members both of their cellars and of the other

:10:41.:10:45.

place. There are a whole raft of amendments to consider is what hope

:10:46.:10:48.

honourable members will understand if I focus on the highlights in the

:10:49.:10:53.

order that they appear in the belt. Firstly, on the 40% ballot

:10:54.:10:59.

threshold. This relates to strike action and important public services

:11:00.:11:03.

and the broad reference to ancillary workers has been removed from the

:11:04.:11:07.

Bell and a reasonable belief defence for unions has been added. These

:11:08.:11:12.

changes provide more clarity and certainty for unions and employers.

:11:13.:11:18.

Relating to the time of industrial action, the ballot mandate has been

:11:19.:11:22.

extended from four to six months and up to nine months were both the

:11:23.:11:27.

union and the employer a giddy. This response to concerns raised that

:11:28.:11:31.

four months was simply too short to enable both sides to resolve a

:11:32.:11:36.

dispute. On the provision for two weeks notice to an employer of

:11:37.:11:41.

industrial action, the Bell now considers to are allowed for the

:11:42.:11:44.

current period of seven days notice were both the employer and the trade

:11:45.:11:49.

union agree to that. On picketing, industries and in whistle and the

:11:50.:11:54.

house of Lords, there was a great two of concern about the reference

:11:55.:11:58.

to armbands in the Bell, which was taken from the original editing

:11:59.:12:03.

quote which has been in force for a great deal of time. We do not want

:12:04.:12:07.

packet supervisors mistakenly believing that they must wear an

:12:08.:12:12.

armband. I hope this will be welcome in particular to my honourable

:12:13.:12:16.

friend the member for Haltemprice and Howden who is not in his seat

:12:17.:12:20.

but who had particular concerns about this and raised in eloquently

:12:21.:12:25.

in our debates in this house. On political funds, this has debated at

:12:26.:12:28.

length the principle that union members should make an active choice

:12:29.:12:34.

to contribute to a trade union's political fund. The other places

:12:35.:12:38.

that -- established at select committee on trade union funds and

:12:39.:12:40.

practicable article funding under the tape -- and I would like to

:12:41.:12:48.

place on record my gratitude to the noble Lord Burns and all members of

:12:49.:12:53.

that committee for their deliberations on this question. The

:12:54.:12:57.

bill has been amended to reflect the recommendations of the select

:12:58.:12:59.

committee on the specific subject of opting in. Our manifesto commitment

:13:00.:13:04.

suggested that we would want to extend the principle of opt in for

:13:05.:13:11.

trade union members and we believe that the revised provision meets

:13:12.:13:16.

that commitment. In future, all new members of trade unions will have to

:13:17.:13:19.

make an active choice to contribute to the political fund through an

:13:20.:13:27.

active opt in. There are amendment collects -- corrects some are

:13:28.:13:30.

legally defective drafting in the movement by Lord Burns and agreed to

:13:31.:13:35.

by the noble Lords and in particular, instead of the

:13:36.:13:38.

certification Officer being given the responsibility for issuing a

:13:39.:13:43.

code of practice, places as statutory obligation directly on it

:13:44.:13:47.

unions themselves to provide an annual remainder of two trade union

:13:48.:13:51.

members of their rights to opt in, if they are existing members,"

:13:52.:13:56.

comments to the position for new members to be required -- to have

:13:57.:14:01.

the right to opt in. We have improved requirements on it unions

:14:02.:14:06.

to report details of the political expenditure in their annual returns.

:14:07.:14:09.

This reflects the debates we had on the importance of this to assist new

:14:10.:14:14.

members to make informed decisions whether to injury to a unions of

:14:15.:14:18.

political fund. At the heart of this position as transparency and

:14:19.:14:24.

proportionality. The amendment also requires all expenditures from a

:14:25.:14:29.

party political fund, including two campaigns but it also replaces the

:14:30.:14:33.

onerous obligation for the union to report on every bus there. Instead,

:14:34.:14:39.

unions will be required to report on the total expenditure made each

:14:40.:14:42.

political party or organisation in each of the categories. And finally,

:14:43.:14:49.

the other place regularly agreed to increase parliamentary oversight on

:14:50.:14:52.

regulations which could in the future stick to war the reporting

:14:53.:14:56.

threshold once it has been raised and therefore increase the

:14:57.:15:02.

regulatory word on trade unions. Madam Deputy Speaker, we had robust

:15:03.:15:07.

debates in this house and they certainly had equally robust debates

:15:08.:15:18.

in the other place. These debates related to the question of union

:15:19.:15:22.

subscriptions being deducted automatically from wages in the

:15:23.:15:27.

public sector. The bell that we welcome back to this house allows

:15:28.:15:33.

check off to continue with the costs are made by the trade unions and on

:15:34.:15:38.

the basis that it unions also had the option of pinks obstructions by

:15:39.:15:43.

other means. In this house, my honourable friend the member for

:15:44.:15:49.

Staffordshire, I am glad to get his name wrong but he knows who she is

:15:50.:15:54.

and he is not in his place, made an eloquent argument for this amendment

:15:55.:15:57.

and I indicated during the report stage that we would like closely at

:15:58.:16:03.

it as the bell went through the house of Lords. I hope therefore my

:16:04.:16:08.

honourable friend isn't satisfied with the decision by the Government

:16:09.:16:12.

to accept this amendment and I would like to pay tribute to him for his

:16:13.:16:19.

work both privately and publicly end making the case for this important

:16:20.:16:25.

change. On the segregation -- certification Officer, manifesto

:16:26.:16:29.

commitment was to reform this role and this amendment rules that --

:16:30.:16:33.

removes the requirement for the certification Officer to act in some

:16:34.:16:39.

areas only when our complaint has been received from a member of a

:16:40.:16:42.

trade union. Instead, they will be able to walk and Jewish that come to

:16:43.:16:46.

his attention from third parties or in the course of his duties.

:16:47.:16:49.

However, the provisions have been amendment -- amended to increase the

:16:50.:16:59.

ability of the certificate shafts by making sure he was not subject to

:17:00.:17:06.

ministerial oversight. They are under no obligation to act on

:17:07.:17:09.

complaints representations from third parties. Nevertheless,

:17:10.:17:12.

concerns were raised that spurious complaints could tie up the

:17:13.:17:16.

certifications officers resources and indeed place him -- place an

:17:17.:17:23.

unfair burden on in trade unions. The Bell has been amended to require

:17:24.:17:26.

the certification Officer must have reasonable grounds to suspect a

:17:27.:17:31.

breach before appointing an inspector to conduct an

:17:32.:17:35.

investigation. I am confident that this will protect trade unions from

:17:36.:17:40.

both a vexatious rip -- winds and over zealous regulation. I am happy

:17:41.:17:43.

to assure honourable members that we will keep this under review to see

:17:44.:17:49.

how it works out in practice. In response to human rights concerns,

:17:50.:17:52.

the judicial oversight of certification officers has been

:17:53.:17:56.

strengthened. The bill has been amended to allow appeals to the

:17:57.:18:01.

employment appeals Tribunal on the certification Officer 's decision on

:18:02.:18:04.

the grounds of fact. I hope that members will -- honourable members

:18:05.:18:10.

will wonder these agreements made -- one of these amendments, I believe

:18:11.:18:15.

that they improve the Bell and I hope the house will see fit to

:18:16.:18:17.

accept them. I thank you very much, Madam Deputy

:18:18.:18:35.

Speaker and there is a great physical similarity between myself

:18:36.:18:39.

and my honourable friend and it was an entire oral -- entirely

:18:40.:18:44.

understandable mistake on your part to mistake one for the other. Can I

:18:45.:18:52.

first of all see, I shouldn't -- I should have declared in the previous

:18:53.:18:57.

section my membership of a union and my pregnant bishop of the musicians

:18:58.:19:00.

union before seeing what they have to say on this amendment. My proud

:19:01.:19:14.

membership of the musicians union. We are under a limited time

:19:15.:19:22.

restraint. My honourable friend highlighted the significant

:19:23.:19:23.

amendments. Including check off. My honourable friend from Stafford

:19:24.:19:40.

dared put down an amendment and it was an extraordinary provision that

:19:41.:19:43.

are conservative Government was seeking to make illegal. I will

:19:44.:19:48.

voluntary arrangement between parties, even where one party came

:19:49.:19:52.

for that service, we're at that party is neither a model nor illegal

:19:53.:19:56.

and that would have been an extraordinary electoral measure and

:19:57.:20:01.

I am glad that in their Lordships house, the Government give way on

:20:02.:20:04.

that matter and it is no longer in the Bell and that is welcome. I

:20:05.:20:09.

welcome what he said on the record in relation to the sector the

:20:10.:20:13.

commission officer in his remarks, think it is extremely important that

:20:14.:20:17.

the Government does recognise the concerns that have been concerned

:20:18.:20:23.

about the potential for a vexatious complaints by third parties and day

:20:24.:20:26.

to mend with a pen that could be for all concerned, so I welcome what he

:20:27.:20:30.

said on the record about that and I welcome the promise of the review of

:20:31.:20:34.

how that is working out in practice, although we don't agree, and I have

:20:35.:20:40.

made that clear in relation to what the Government dusting in relation

:20:41.:20:44.

to the certification Officer. I am glad he has put that on the record

:20:45.:20:49.

year, at this stage, before the bell goes back to the Lords. No, the

:20:50.:20:55.

other part of this group of amendments, perhaps the most

:20:56.:20:58.

controversial part, the most contentious parts of the bell, has

:20:59.:21:01.

been the Government desire to create an opt in process for trade union

:21:02.:21:07.

political fund. That is right in wishing to amendment seven or eight.

:21:08.:21:11.

The original proposal would have meant that existing members that

:21:12.:21:17.

play into the -- PM to their unions political funds with half to opt

:21:18.:21:21.

back in within three months of the passage of the bell and after five

:21:22.:21:27.

years. Imagine, Madam Deputy Speaker, at every organisation in

:21:28.:21:32.

the country was required to give a recommitment to the standing order

:21:33.:21:37.

payable to it within three months, in writing, by post, Edward,

:21:38.:21:42.

obviously, on the result on one thing, massive problems for that

:21:43.:21:46.

organisation, whether it was a banker, voluntary organisation or

:21:47.:21:51.

every other membership organisation, or subscription to a magazine, or

:21:52.:21:55.

whatever it was. It always seemed clear to was that this was an

:21:56.:22:06.

unworkable proposal designed to unilaterally refuse -- at an

:22:07.:22:16.

effective attempt to undermine the opposition, Labour Party. That's why

:22:17.:22:19.

when the Bell reached the House of Lords, they set up a special house

:22:20.:22:23.

committee to look at this, as the minister said, under the

:22:24.:22:29.

chairmanship of Lord Burns and we are grateful for his effort and the

:22:30.:22:32.

efforts of his colleagues, both on the committee and in the House of

:22:33.:22:34.

Lords. We should thank not just Labour

:22:35.:22:44.

peers but those from other parties and crossbenchers for approaching

:22:45.:22:48.

this view in an imaginative and collaborative way. I recognise, I

:22:49.:22:58.

suppose, what the House of Lords did is that the Government created a

:22:59.:23:03.

manifesto commitment for opt in. It made other manifesto commitments

:23:04.:23:09.

about big business and we haven't seen action related to those,

:23:10.:23:14.

nevertheless, it said it would introduce opt in in its manifesto

:23:15.:23:19.

and it was elected with an overall majority in the House of Commons

:23:20.:23:25.

albeit less than of the vote, so it has been -- less than 40% of the

:23:26.:23:31.

vote, it has been able to argue that the Lords should remove opt in under

:23:32.:23:36.

the normal conventions followed in the other place. I think what the

:23:37.:23:41.

Lords have achieved in their amendment is therefore extremely

:23:42.:23:45.

skilfully done. They have taken the view that opt into should only apply

:23:46.:23:50.

to new members of a trade union, that they should be a longer period

:23:51.:23:54.

of time, at least 12 months, for trade unions to adjust their rules

:23:55.:23:59.

and procedures, and there should be no automatic requirement to opt in.

:24:00.:24:04.

I will give way. Would my Honourable Friend also agree this will not be

:24:05.:24:08.

difficult for many trade unions pickers on many trade union

:24:09.:24:12.

application forms there is a box to take to contribute to a political

:24:13.:24:21.

party. In the GMB union summary ran a political fund. Is it not an

:24:22.:24:24.

example of legislation which is not really needed? Well, I am not

:24:25.:24:33.

surprised that as he is physical mistaken for me that our opinion

:24:34.:24:38.

should be identical on this matter. I agree with the point he made in

:24:39.:24:45.

his intervention. I will give way. Can I take him back to what he said

:24:46.:24:49.

about the House of Lords, can I echo the words of Lord Patrick Cormack, a

:24:50.:24:54.

Member of this House for 40 years, who said, we don't have a advance on

:24:55.:25:06.

the opt out at such a pace which in which it will unbalanced democracy.

:25:07.:25:12.

Does he know this is about? It was about unbalancing democracy and

:25:13.:25:16.

disadvantage in. He was right. It was a shame there are not more like

:25:17.:25:19.

him over there. I pay tribute to him over there. I pay tribute to

:25:20.:25:24.

Lord Cormack for his work on this and what he said in the House Lords.

:25:25.:25:30.

He might seem to some and unlikely working-class hero, but this

:25:31.:25:35.

instance I think what he has done has reflected what true one nation

:25:36.:25:42.

conservatism should be. That is bandied about is a phrase but I

:25:43.:25:46.

think his interventions in the House of Lords along with other House of

:25:47.:25:49.

Lords colleagues has reminded us that we legislate not just for one

:25:50.:25:57.

Parliament but the future. I will go on to describe why it would have

:25:58.:26:00.

been dangerous at the Government stepped to the plans they originally

:26:01.:26:06.

outlined in this area. As I said, they have looked at a workable way

:26:07.:26:11.

in the Lords for the Government to reduce its stated manifesto

:26:12.:26:15.

commitment without it becoming a crude and clumsy device to starve

:26:16.:26:19.

the second largest party in Parliament of its largest salts of

:26:20.:26:24.

finance, from the very institutions that founded the party concerned,

:26:25.:26:30.

the Labour Party. I think my Honourable Friend was saying this in

:26:31.:26:33.

another way, that they have done the Government a big favour by doing

:26:34.:26:37.

this. Have these proposals been proceeded with on the original

:26:38.:26:42.

basis, make no mistake it would have created a lasting bitterness and

:26:43.:26:47.

resentment in the trade union and Labour movement, and beyond, because

:26:48.:26:51.

we are grateful for the support from other political parties in relation

:26:52.:26:57.

to this. I have no doubt, as many of their Lordships pointed out, and as

:26:58.:27:02.

the select committee report noted in paragraph 130, and I have a copy

:27:03.:27:07.

here, and I quote, that it would make the Labour Party more inclined

:27:08.:27:11.

to take unilateral action against the Conservative Party and its

:27:12.:27:15.

funding when next in Government. That was paragraph 130 of the

:27:16.:27:20.

cross-party report in the House of Lords. It would appear at this very

:27:21.:27:24.

late hour that this point has hit home to ministers, and I welcome

:27:25.:27:28.

that. The Government has decided to think again on the proposals on

:27:29.:27:34.

political opt ins. It has tabled the replacement amendments, which mean

:27:35.:27:39.

that the requirement to opt into political funds will only apply to

:27:40.:27:44.

new union members. As a result union members who have voluntarily agreed

:27:45.:27:47.

to make contributions will not be acquired to opt in again to support

:27:48.:27:51.

ongoing campaigns. Existing members will only be required to opt in if

:27:52.:27:56.

they'd union votes to establish a political fund for the first time.

:27:57.:28:00.

It is also conceded on the five years and allows for a minimum 12

:28:01.:28:04.

month transition period. Union members will be allowed to opt in or

:28:05.:28:11.

out on paper but also a electronic clay. We will eventually get to

:28:12.:28:20.

that. Including online forms, e-mails and potentially texts.

:28:21.:28:23.

Unions will be required to remind members of their requirement to opt

:28:24.:28:35.

out. The new Government amendment takes on board all the core evidence

:28:36.:28:41.

of -- evidence of Lord Burns's proposal and that passed the Lords

:28:42.:28:46.

by 320 votes - 172 so a greater majority than that which set up the

:28:47.:28:50.

select committee on the first place, showing a growing support for that

:28:51.:28:54.

approach. I still believe these proposals foreign opt in system on

:28:55.:28:57.

political funds are unnecessary and we should put that on the record,

:28:58.:29:03.

but we do recognise the Government is proposing a substantial

:29:04.:29:06.

improvement the Bill which would have required all members to opt in

:29:07.:29:12.

and remove the opt in in five years. Whilst retaining our opposition to

:29:13.:29:17.

the billing general and opting in particular, we will not seek to

:29:18.:29:20.

divide the House on the Government amendment is given the substantial

:29:21.:29:24.

nature of the concessions they have brought forward. I would just like

:29:25.:29:30.

to say... I will give way. I thank the Honourable Gentleman for giving

:29:31.:29:36.

way. I agree, that what is behind this intention to move from opt out

:29:37.:29:41.

to opt in is clearly an attempt by some members of the Conservative

:29:42.:29:45.

Party to attack Labour Party funding. I wonder if he would agree

:29:46.:29:50.

that our defence of the right of the unions to engage in political

:29:51.:29:54.

activity would be more effective if we ensure that they are in gauging

:29:55.:29:58.

an activity not just to support the Labour Party but engaging other

:29:59.:30:02.

political action and achieve the change to support whatever parties

:30:03.:30:06.

they feel is in their members best interests. It is accepted there is a

:30:07.:30:10.

special relationship between the Labour Party and the trade unions.

:30:11.:30:16.

They founded the Labour Party and they do campaign in all sorts of

:30:17.:30:21.

ways and in all sorts of campaigns. I am grateful to all parties who

:30:22.:30:26.

have recognised the importance than our Constitution of the political

:30:27.:30:30.

funds of trade unions and the vital role they play in our democracy.

:30:31.:30:35.

Trade union money is the cleanest money and politics compared with

:30:36.:30:39.

some of the sources of money on donations to political parties, and

:30:40.:30:44.

long may that continue. I will not attain the House much longer but it

:30:45.:30:48.

would be remiss of me not to conclude my remarks on this section

:30:49.:30:51.

without paying tribute to those who have made this change possible and

:30:52.:30:56.

worked so hard to improve this dreadful Bill. I include in that all

:30:57.:31:00.

my Honourable Friend is in front bench team including my Honourable

:31:01.:31:05.

Friend the Shadow Secretary of State, and former members of that

:31:06.:31:08.

front bench team who helped at earlier stages of this Bill, and

:31:09.:31:12.

members of other parties in this House who have helped to fight the

:31:13.:31:16.

good fight as well as my Honourable friends on the side the House. I

:31:17.:31:22.

want to special tribute to my very good friend Baroness Smith of

:31:23.:31:28.

Basildon and her team in the Lords, as well as all the other peers from

:31:29.:31:33.

other parties and no party who voted to create the select committee and

:31:34.:31:38.

worked so diligently to get us to where we are today. It is said that

:31:39.:31:43.

our constitution means that the opposition has its say but the

:31:44.:31:47.

Government gets its way. In this instance the opposition has had its

:31:48.:31:52.

day and at least in part got its way. As a result this is a piece of

:31:53.:31:56.

legislation which has had some of the most pernicious edges knocked

:31:57.:32:07.

off, even if it remains a pig's ear. Can I welcome the work of the Lords

:32:08.:32:11.

as the Honourable Member for Cardiff West has just outlined, but it was

:32:12.:32:15.

quite clear what this Bill was about. The Prime Minister talks

:32:16.:32:20.

about being a one nation Conservative, yes. He wants to be a

:32:21.:32:24.

one nation Conservative which is one party having the advantage, the

:32:25.:32:27.

Conservative Party. To be honest if you need to know the disappointment

:32:28.:32:33.

you only need to look at the Secretary of State's face, which

:32:34.:32:38.

seems to tell it all. There was no need for this legislation, it was

:32:39.:32:44.

based on, I think, a prejudice in understanding the way the trade

:32:45.:32:47.

unions work but also an attempt to make sure the Conservative Party had

:32:48.:32:53.

not only a political advantage but a major financial advantage. In terms

:32:54.:33:00.

of the legislation saying new members will have two opt in, this

:33:01.:33:06.

will not come as any great surprise to trade unions, because if

:33:07.:33:12.

ministers take trouble to review trade union application forms, there

:33:13.:33:15.

is a box on there, which says, if you want to contribute, tick this

:33:16.:33:19.

box, it is up to members whether they wish to do that. So the idea

:33:20.:33:26.

that this needs to be on the face is a remarkable. We know why we are

:33:27.:33:32.

here today with the climb-down we have seen. The climb-down has

:33:33.:33:36.

nothing to do with the Trade Union Bill. It has to do with the

:33:37.:33:40.

realisation on the half of the primaries do that if he wants trade

:33:41.:33:44.

unionists to vote yes in the EU referendum he will have to give them

:33:45.:33:51.

onside. That's as we often see in politics, the coming together of

:33:52.:33:56.

events has benefited and defeated this piece of pernicious

:33:57.:33:59.

legislation, because had it gone through, as the House of Lords said

:34:00.:34:05.

in its report, it would have given the Conservative Party and advantage

:34:06.:34:09.

in political funding. I must say I totally agree with my Honourable

:34:10.:34:12.

Friend the Member for Cardiff West when he says trade union Murray is

:34:13.:34:17.

as clean as any. It is transparent the way it is spent -- trade union

:34:18.:34:24.

money, it is regulated, and we cannot say the same for sources of

:34:25.:34:29.

funding to the Conservative Party, whether it be through dining clubs

:34:30.:34:36.

or corporate associations, which are a way of masking the true source of

:34:37.:34:43.

that type of donations. I do look forward now to the Government

:34:44.:34:49.

bringing forward legislation on the reform of party funding, including

:34:50.:34:54.

greater transparency in terms of the sourcing of funding, because that,

:34:55.:34:59.

if we are going to have an even playing field in terms of not only

:35:00.:35:04.

the ability to raise funds but also knowing where money comes from, that

:35:05.:35:11.

will, I think, be vitally needed. But in terms of the other side of

:35:12.:35:15.

this, which I think again, I think the media have misunderstood this

:35:16.:35:22.

and the ministers... Soriano aboard the Secretary of State having left

:35:23.:35:26.

but he is obviously unhappy that his flagship legislation stands in

:35:27.:35:33.

tatters today. It is quite clear, the impression given by the

:35:34.:35:37.

Conservative Party and its supporters is that everything will

:35:38.:35:40.

trade union donates all its political funds to the Labour Party.

:35:41.:35:45.

This is not the case. Many are not affiliated and make donated -- no

:35:46.:35:48.

donations to political parties. Having been in the GMB myself I know

:35:49.:35:52.

the proportion which goes to the Labour Party is a small amount

:35:53.:35:57.

compared to the campaigning work which allowed that union not just a

:35:58.:36:03.

campaign in terms of issues relevant to them but also health and safety,

:36:04.:36:07.

legislation, ensuring reorganisation of hospitals are taking cup base,

:36:08.:36:12.

the union, quite rightly, is allowed to do that. Without that fund they

:36:13.:36:16.

would not be able to do that. It would take away not just the ability

:36:17.:36:22.

of my own party to receive money from trade unions but also hamper

:36:23.:36:27.

trade unions, quite rightly, to take part in civic life in this country

:36:28.:36:32.

in terms of being able to have a voice, make sure their members

:36:33.:36:37.

voices heard in whatever consultation and whatever happens

:36:38.:36:38.

and affects directly their members. The other misnomers this idea that

:36:39.:36:48.

once people pay in the somehow blocked on forever. This is not the

:36:49.:36:52.

case. I used to deal with this every day of the week, people that decided

:36:53.:36:57.

to opt out. It is a clear mechanism for most trade unions for people to

:36:58.:37:02.

do this. This idea that people are being forced to do this you aren't

:37:03.:37:07.

they are well is just not the case. As I said earlier on, people take a

:37:08.:37:10.

conscious decision when they join and fill out an application form, to

:37:11.:37:15.

take whether they want to pay the political levy or not. I think it is

:37:16.:37:21.

a piece of legislation that is not needed but comes from a place of

:37:22.:37:25.

ignorance on the part of the party opposite but also think that

:37:26.:37:30.

goodness. They won the general election in 2015 and thought they

:37:31.:37:35.

could do whatever they liked to the democratic processes of this

:37:36.:37:39.

country. The other point is the issue of check off. It is a useless

:37:40.:37:47.

piece of legislation. Many organisations already choose to levy

:37:48.:37:53.

an administration fee for the administration of the check off

:37:54.:37:57.

system. I think this -- I don't think this has been honoured --

:37:58.:38:00.

Kaunas on many trade unions who already do this. My Honourable

:38:01.:38:06.

Friend from Yorkshire said this was a minor point got --, a minor point,

:38:07.:38:20.

but not worth seeing. Again, something that is not needed. I

:38:21.:38:28.

think what is surely important as calculating the real cost of check

:38:29.:38:33.

off, because it is absolutely nominal and many trade unions are

:38:34.:38:37.

subsidising local authorities, the NHS and other public wadis, on the

:38:38.:38:43.

amount they pay. I shall my age when this used to have to be done

:38:44.:38:47.

manually and there was a costing, but she is quite right, in terms of

:38:48.:38:53.

the modern systems, computer appeals, for example, the cost is,

:38:54.:38:57.

well, very difficult to determine. In conclusion, I think we have got

:38:58.:39:03.

to the point with this Bill that I think is, I agree with my friend

:39:04.:39:10.

that I do oppose this Bill as a whole, but in terms of the

:39:11.:39:14.

compromise we have fewer, because of the EU referendum, I think it is a

:39:15.:39:21.

good place. Can I just put down this final warning. I hope that once the

:39:22.:39:28.

referendum is over, that the members of the city do not start bringing

:39:29.:39:33.

back more legislation to try and fill in what they did not get in

:39:34.:39:37.

this piece of legislation. That will not only be another attack on the

:39:38.:39:42.

trade unions, one of the most highly regulated parts of our country, it

:39:43.:39:48.

would also, again, show the vindictiveness that there are still

:39:49.:39:51.

as an part of the Conservative Party and part of this country. I look

:39:52.:39:58.

forward to, not long after June, to see the Bill come forward for an

:39:59.:40:05.

expectation of total transparency in party funding in this country.

:40:06.:40:09.

Because of trade Unions can do it and have the openers they have in

:40:10.:40:14.

terms of the money, should have it so that other donations given to

:40:15.:40:18.

political parties should have the same scrutiny and transparency, so

:40:19.:40:21.

people can make up the road and maimed when they go to the ballot

:40:22.:40:29.

box. Chris Stephens. Madam Deputy Speaker, it is a pleasure to follow

:40:30.:40:35.

my Honourable Friend. I agree with many of the points he made. In terms

:40:36.:40:41.

of the SNP position, we have always opposed the Government 's proposals,

:40:42.:40:47.

in terms of the trade union political funds, for a simple

:40:48.:40:50.

reason. It should be up to trade union members to decide where their

:40:51.:40:53.

money goes. It is up to trade union members to decide whether they

:40:54.:40:57.

should support one or two point -- one party or another, or in some

:40:58.:41:03.

cases, trade unions have decided to sponsor individual candidates, given

:41:04.:41:08.

that work to -- as opposed to given that work to a particular political

:41:09.:41:14.

party. This was not an attack just on the Labour Party but on the

:41:15.:41:18.

ability of the trade unions to organise and effectively across the

:41:19.:41:21.

community which the political funds have done in terms of their great

:41:22.:41:28.

tune in to work and healthy safety work, antiracism work. And also at

:41:29.:41:38.

international work, which would trade unions do a lot of fantastic

:41:39.:41:41.

work in terms of its international work across the world. In terms of

:41:42.:41:50.

check off, it will come as no surprise to any trade unionists that

:41:51.:41:53.

this is not a major change. One has said that they have 11,000 different

:41:54.:41:58.

agreements we are they are contributing to the cost of check

:41:59.:42:06.

off. So, we do well, the governments turn on that. -- welcome. I wanted

:42:07.:42:22.

to say a few words. I think if those who -- those voices who had the

:42:23.:42:27.

experience in a trade union workplace, if those voices add our

:42:28.:42:32.

trade union background were listened to and she did, there would not be

:42:33.:42:38.

any need to be where we are now. There are perhaps would not even be

:42:39.:42:42.

a change union Bell. Many opposition members have pointed out on a

:42:43.:42:47.

regular basis how unnecessary and unwarranted this legislation

:42:48.:42:53.

actually is. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker, I am grateful for the

:42:54.:42:57.

opportunity to speak this afternoon. I declare an interest as a Member of

:42:58.:43:02.

Unison and he commended trade unions and refer to my register in the

:43:03.:43:06.

declaration of financial interests. I should also say that well I am

:43:07.:43:12.

Member of these unions, have very good employers in the deepwater

:43:13.:43:16.

offered North and I don't anticipate going on strike any time soon.

:43:17.:43:20.

Whilst the Government 's concessions this afternoon are welcomed, I think

:43:21.:43:24.

it is ironic that it has fallen to the unelected House to defend some

:43:25.:43:28.

of the most democratic elements of trade unions and their commitment to

:43:29.:43:32.

democratic life in this country. For some reason, this Government elected

:43:33.:43:37.

with just a slender majority of 12 seems to think that that majority

:43:38.:43:41.

gives it carte blanche to trample all over the democratic traditions

:43:42.:43:45.

and values and heritage of our country and it is not just a brazen

:43:46.:43:49.

attack on part political funding and the Labour Party in particular that

:43:50.:43:53.

they embarked upon with this Bell, but look on the record in the short

:43:54.:43:57.

thing they have governed as a single majority party. They have sought to

:43:58.:44:07.

gag civil societies, restricted trade unions, this Sunday new

:44:08.:44:11.

restrictions clicking on any publicly funded body which has the

:44:12.:44:19.

potential to gag Hawkins of people, including academics and

:44:20.:44:21.

universities. We will see what the higher education Bill says later

:44:22.:44:24.

this year when undoubtedly we'll another call at student unions again

:44:25.:44:30.

like the dead in the 1990s. Listening to what the Minister has

:44:31.:44:33.

said this afternoon, and particularly in terms of the

:44:34.:44:37.

previous amendments passed and underlined why this Bill should

:44:38.:44:43.

still be opposed, there can be no evidence -based argument against

:44:44.:44:49.

trialling electronic balloting for trade unions. The Minister himself

:44:50.:44:53.

could not offer a single shred of evidence to argue against a simple

:44:54.:44:58.

trial. What this has really been about as they delegitimise Asian

:44:59.:45:02.

Unions. What the Government what to say is that whenever people go on

:45:03.:45:04.

strike or take industrial action that it is a hard romp of activists

:45:05.:45:10.

who have prompted that action. Even the measures of this Bill would not

:45:11.:45:15.

have prevented the junior doctors going on strike. Nor at the London

:45:16.:45:22.

transport members going on strike, because the turnout exceeds the

:45:23.:45:25.

threshold in the legislation and if they were serious about trade unions

:45:26.:45:30.

having pride, democratic legitimacy, they should unshackle their hands so

:45:31.:45:34.

that the trade union membership and activists can do what they want to

:45:35.:45:40.

do, what they have asked to do, which is to enter the 21st-century

:45:41.:45:49.

with electronic balloting. We have also had the Government

:45:50.:45:50.

fundamentally misunderstanding the trade unions. Cool ten

:45:51.:45:57.

representatives play a valuable role in good industrial relations. They

:45:58.:46:00.

take up cases on behalf of their members and make sure they are

:46:01.:46:04.

represented and supported. They advise employers on how to improve

:46:05.:46:09.

the workplace environment and where there are good relations, the

:46:10.:46:16.

likelihood of striking is lessened and the workplace environment is

:46:17.:46:23.

better for everyone. I kept we. Isn't an overrule for the trade

:46:24.:46:26.

union movement and the welfare role that they have, where workers enable

:46:27.:46:33.

them to get assistance and help where they may not know about it. I

:46:34.:46:37.

wholeheartedly 80 and he speaks with great experience in his own

:46:38.:46:41.

background in the trade union movement. I think good employers

:46:42.:46:44.

argue that foolish and Shepherd trade unions and I certainly know

:46:45.:46:48.

that the trade union members that I speak to, whether in my authority

:46:49.:46:56.

representatives and other workplaces, it is not that they have

:46:57.:47:00.

excessive time, it is that they don't have enough and the struggle

:47:01.:47:04.

to deal with caseloads, particular when there are major changes to

:47:05.:47:09.

employment. That generates a huge workload that I do not think that

:47:10.:47:16.

the Government appreciates. The trading is campaigning work and

:47:17.:47:19.

funding legal action, which has led to millions of people getting the

:47:20.:47:23.

rightful compensation for industrial injuries such as the miners

:47:24.:47:29.

compensation scheme that was pioneered by the trade union

:47:30.:47:33.

movement and without that millions of people in this country who

:47:34.:47:36.

suffered from no fault of their own would not have got the rightful

:47:37.:47:41.

compensation. I wholeheartedly 80 and if we're honest, the trade

:47:42.:47:45.

unions too often have to speak up for people who otherwise would not

:47:46.:47:48.

have a voice and it is often because the killers of this place and

:47:49.:47:53.

different governments over the years that trade unions have had to

:47:54.:47:57.

exercise pressure on behalf of their members, exercise that muscle to

:47:58.:48:00.

make sure that Government Act to protect those people that have been

:48:01.:48:07.

terrible injustice. I speak from experience, both as formally as a

:48:08.:48:11.

trade union were doing exactly those legal cases that my Honourable

:48:12.:48:16.

Friend has reverted, but also as an employer who benefited from having a

:48:17.:48:20.

unionised workplace in order to resolve issues and disagreements and

:48:21.:48:23.

get changes through in companies and without a union representative that

:48:24.:48:27.

the new representative in the work was that would be much more

:48:28.:48:31.

difficult. We can see it from both sides. I wholeheartedly agree.

:48:32.:48:36.

Actually, I have sat on the employer side of the table working with trade

:48:37.:48:41.

unions, more than I have sat on the employee said. I had been a Member

:48:42.:48:45.

of a trade union for as long as I had been in full-time work and it

:48:46.:48:48.

comes back to the point that I made, that employers often value that

:48:49.:48:53.

relationship, which is not adversarial, although at some things

:48:54.:49:03.

can be. When people do choose to go on strike, it is worth bearing in

:49:04.:49:07.

that it was their pay, they do not do it publicly and many families

:49:08.:49:10.

struggle to balance their budgets at the end of the month as it is, what

:49:11.:49:15.

too much month and not enough money left, so the idea of losing a couple

:49:16.:49:19.

of days or more of their salary is often a real hardship to these

:49:20.:49:23.

people. They do not take this action likely and don't think that is

:49:24.:49:26.

understood enough when we talk about, any terms -- in the club

:49:27.:49:34.

terms, industrial action. I wasn't about to be concessions made and

:49:35.:49:39.

there will be no changes to facilitate payment to lap a few

:49:40.:49:43.

years and that we have done all the assessment, how long is this going

:49:44.:49:47.

to take? How much money will this cost? And which civil servants

:49:48.:49:52.

timers is going to cost? Bizarrely, we have a Government that will waste

:49:53.:49:56.

time coding project union facility time for employers up and down the

:49:57.:49:59.

country but it will not count the number of children in poverty. It

:50:00.:50:05.

will waste time counting facility time but we won't measure jailed

:50:06.:50:09.

poverty. That tells you everything you need to know about the wrong

:50:10.:50:13.

headed priorities of this Government and free time wasting that they have

:50:14.:50:17.

done by bringing forward this Bell in the first place. I congratulate

:50:18.:50:20.

members of the House of Lords for the way that they have really torn

:50:21.:50:26.

this Bill are part and exposed it to forensics originally with the

:50:27.:50:28.

Government does not have a majority and we have had extra days from

:50:29.:50:32.

right across the political spectrum in the House of Lords. I think it is

:50:33.:50:38.

also worth bidding on the record that the doglike video forensic

:50:39.:50:41.

scrutiny in the House of Commons as well, it's just that we didn't win

:50:42.:50:46.

any of the votes. My Honourable Friend has pre-empted me because I

:50:47.:50:50.

was about congratulate as well, not just my front bench colleagues in

:50:51.:50:54.

the Shadow business team for the diligent work that they have done,

:50:55.:50:58.

but my colleagues in the trade union Bill committee, I followed some of

:50:59.:51:01.

the sessions and read the evidence, it was forensic scrutiny and the

:51:02.:51:04.

argument is that not stack up. Many of us have come to this jibber time

:51:05.:51:08.

and time again to get the Government to rethink. They have done some

:51:09.:51:14.

rethinking and I share my Honourable Friend's cynicism that this probably

:51:15.:51:17.

has more to do with the fact that the penny has dropped for the Prime

:51:18.:51:21.

Minister and he has US trade unions not only play an important role in

:51:22.:51:25.

the workplace, they play an important part in the life of our

:51:26.:51:30.

democracy and he is probably peak -- counting news trading is to make the

:51:31.:51:34.

positive case for the UK remaining in the European Union. Many the

:51:35.:51:38.

rights they have would not be enjoyed for -- but for the pressure

:51:39.:51:44.

that the changing bring to bear. We should celebrate the work of trade

:51:45.:51:48.

Unions, enter this Treaty or denigration of the work of trade

:51:49.:51:52.

unions and this Bill should not be supported.

:51:53.:52:03.

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