Browse content similar to 03/05/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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by the insolvent is -- insolvency service. We must move on. Urgent | :00:00. | :00:11. | |
question, Joe Cox. To make a statement on the situation in | :00:12. | :00:12. | |
Aleppo, Syria. Tobias Ellwood. The Syrian conflict | :00:13. | :00:32. | |
has entered its sixth year. As a result of Assad's brutality and the | :00:33. | :00:34. | |
terror of Daesh. It is estimated 400,000 | :00:35. | :00:51. | |
people may have been killed directly by the conflict. Our long-term goal | :00:52. | :00:56. | |
is for Syria to become a stable, peaceful state with an inclusive | :00:57. | :00:58. | |
government capable of protecting their people from Daesh and other | :00:59. | :01:04. | |
extremists. When that happens civility can be returned to the | :01:05. | :01:07. | |
region, which is necessary to stem the flow of people fleeing Syria and | :01:08. | :01:15. | |
seeking refuge in Europe. We have been working hard to find a | :01:16. | :01:19. | |
political solution to the conflict. There have been three rounds of UN | :01:20. | :01:22. | |
facilitated peace negotiations in Geneva this year. In February, March | :01:23. | :01:30. | |
and April. The latest round concluded on the 27th of April | :01:31. | :01:35. | |
without significant progress on the vital issue of political transition. | :01:36. | :01:40. | |
We have always been clear that negotiations will only make progress | :01:41. | :01:46. | |
if the cessation of hostilities is respected, full humanitarian access | :01:47. | :01:50. | |
is granted and if both sides are prepared to discuss political | :01:51. | :01:54. | |
transition. The escalating violence of the last two weeks, especially | :01:55. | :02:01. | |
around Aleppo, has been an appalling breach of the cessation of | :02:02. | :02:04. | |
hostilities agreement. On the 27th of April, Els puddle in Aleppo city | :02:05. | :02:15. | |
was bombed, killing civilians, -- a hospital in Aleppo was bombed | :02:16. | :02:18. | |
killing civilians. More than 12 hospitals have been closed because | :02:19. | :02:23. | |
of air strikes, leaving only a few operating. The humanitarian | :02:24. | :02:29. | |
situation is desperate. According to Tim and rights monitors at least 252 | :02:30. | :02:34. | |
civilians including 49 Jordan have been killed in the city in the last | :02:35. | :02:38. | |
fortnight alone. At midnight on Friday, following international | :02:39. | :02:45. | |
double attic efforts between the US and Russia, a renewed cessation came | :02:46. | :02:57. | |
into effect in Latakia and eastern Ghouta. We understand it remains | :02:58. | :03:00. | |
shaky in eastern Qatar. -- Ghouta. We have received reports | :03:01. | :03:18. | |
violence has continued this morning and we need swift action to stop the | :03:19. | :03:23. | |
fighting. Our Right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary is | :03:24. | :03:29. | |
speaking to secretary John Kerry today to discuss how we can preserve | :03:30. | :03:34. | |
the cessation of hostilities. We'll look to Russia, with its unique | :03:35. | :03:40. | |
influence over the government, to make sure the cessation of | :03:41. | :03:47. | |
hostilities does not break down. It set itself up as the protector of | :03:48. | :03:52. | |
Assad government and has put pressure on them to enter these | :03:53. | :03:58. | |
attacks. This is crucial if negotiations are to be resumed in | :03:59. | :04:02. | |
Geneva. These negotiations must deliver a political transition away | :04:03. | :04:09. | |
from President Assad to a government which can support the needs and | :04:10. | :04:12. | |
aspirations of all Syrians and put an end to the suffering of the | :04:13. | :04:17. | |
Syrian people. We also need to inject further momentum into | :04:18. | :04:22. | |
political talks and we therefore support the UN envoy's called for | :04:23. | :04:28. | |
an... A meeting to facilitate a return to a process leading to a | :04:29. | :04:34. | |
political transition in Syria. We hope this can take place in the next | :04:35. | :04:41. | |
coming weeks. The UK is working strenuously to make that happen and | :04:42. | :04:50. | |
we will continue to do so. I have to say once again that it is a shame | :04:51. | :04:53. | |
the Secretary of State cannot be here personally for an important | :04:54. | :04:57. | |
discussion on this matter and I hope it will be noted. On current trends | :04:58. | :05:02. | |
without international action at the end of this short debate and other | :05:03. | :05:06. | |
two Syrian civilians will be dead and four will be badly injured. On | :05:07. | :05:12. | |
Friday, desperate doctors in Aleppo appealed for international help to | :05:13. | :05:16. | |
stave off further massacres and the potential besiege mint of the city, | :05:17. | :05:24. | |
fearing a repeat of the horrors of Srebrenica. Does he agree it is the | :05:25. | :05:31. | |
Syrian for it is primarily responsible for these horrific | :05:32. | :05:36. | |
ongoing abuses continuing their long-standing policy of targeting | :05:37. | :05:41. | |
civilians in rebel held areas. Does the Minister also agree we urgently | :05:42. | :05:47. | |
now need a mechanism with clear consequences to deter further | :05:48. | :05:51. | |
barbaric attacks on civilians? I have raised repeatedly inverse plays | :05:52. | :05:55. | |
the need for a noble warming zone. Will you look again at this now. | :05:56. | :06:01. | |
What is the UK also doing to work with all those of influence other | :06:02. | :06:07. | |
parties in this conflict including Saudi Arabia, Turkey and Russia and | :06:08. | :06:11. | |
Iran to put pressure on all sides to stop attacks on civilian targets | :06:12. | :06:16. | |
including hospitals. Does the Minister has evidence that Russian | :06:17. | :06:19. | |
forces have been directly involved in the latest air strikes and if | :06:20. | :06:24. | |
they work does he not agree that this is surely time to look at fresh | :06:25. | :06:34. | |
sanctions against Russia? Is it not time to look at air drops for | :06:35. | :06:39. | |
besiege communities? Why can't we join forces with our European allies | :06:40. | :06:43. | |
to get food to starving people? Wouldn't have the active air drops | :06:44. | :06:49. | |
put the regime under pressure to grandma traditional and reliable | :06:50. | :06:53. | |
land access. Is his department involved in the collection of | :06:54. | :06:56. | |
evidence to enable eventual war crimes trials as we did during the | :06:57. | :07:03. | |
Balkans conflict? I understand the commission of justice and | :07:04. | :07:06. | |
accountability funded by both the UK and US government has evidence to | :07:07. | :07:16. | |
link the pieces -- abuses to the highs parts of the Syrian | :07:17. | :07:21. | |
government. What can the UK do to get the most vulnerable people out | :07:22. | :07:26. | |
of harms way? Given what we know about the horror many of the refugee | :07:27. | :07:29. | |
children in Europe have fled isn't it time to end the Government | :07:30. | :07:37. | |
shameful refusal to give thousands unaccompanied children sanctuary in | :07:38. | :07:42. | |
the UK? Whilst I am a huge fan of President Obama and I worked with | :07:43. | :07:49. | |
him in North Carolina in 2008, on Syria I believe both President Obama | :07:50. | :07:52. | |
and the Prime Minister made the biggest misjudgement of their time | :07:53. | :07:57. | |
in office when they put Syria on the too difficult pile instead of | :07:58. | :08:02. | |
engaging fully and they withdrew and put their faith in containment. This | :08:03. | :08:10. | |
judgment will be judged harshly by history and has been nothing short | :08:11. | :08:14. | |
of the foreign policy disaster. There is still time for both men to | :08:15. | :08:18. | |
write a postscript to this failure so does the Minister agree it is | :08:19. | :08:21. | |
time for the leaders of both our countries even in the midst of two | :08:22. | :08:26. | |
hotly contested political campaigns to launch a joint, bold initiative | :08:27. | :08:30. | |
to protect civilians and get aid to besiege communities and throw our | :08:31. | :08:34. | |
weight behind the fragile peace talks before they fail. I don't | :08:35. | :08:39. | |
believe President Obama or the Prime Minister tried to do harm in Syria | :08:40. | :08:45. | |
but sometimes all it takes for evil to triumph is good men to do | :08:46. | :08:56. | |
nothing. Can I pay tribute to the work she does in this area? It is | :08:57. | :09:03. | |
important to the House is kept up-to-date with the events taking | :09:04. | :09:08. | |
place in that country. Firstly to qualify, the Foreign Secretary is | :09:09. | :09:13. | |
returning from a visit to Latin America otherwise he would be in | :09:14. | :09:14. | |
this place now. I concur with the honourable lady it | :09:15. | :09:30. | |
is Syria that is very much responsible for the significant | :09:31. | :09:33. | |
number of deaths of all religions but particularly the Sunni people in | :09:34. | :09:42. | |
the country itself and that as why we called Russia on bringing Assad | :09:43. | :09:47. | |
to account and giving access to the areas. We gain access to about one | :09:48. | :09:54. | |
third of the areas we can previously get into. We hope we can unlock that | :09:55. | :10:00. | |
and be able to provide access in the forthcoming days. She mentions | :10:01. | :10:13. | |
methods of how we get the delivery. There are areas in Daesh territory | :10:14. | :10:16. | |
where we can fly slow and low enough in order to accurately drop | :10:17. | :10:21. | |
packages. That isn't the case in some conurbations. Aleppo is | :10:22. | :10:28. | |
actually Syria's larger city by some margin and not only do you have the | :10:29. | :10:32. | |
opposition there, the Assad Government, you also have other | :10:33. | :10:38. | |
groups. Without the regime's support, we cannot do the ear drops | :10:39. | :10:48. | |
-- air drops. It is better to take trucks into these places to the | :10:49. | :10:56. | |
people that directly needed. Air drops can land randomly and often do | :10:57. | :11:01. | |
not help the vulnerable. She also mentions other countries and Saudi | :11:02. | :11:12. | |
Arabia. -- in. It was Saudi Arabia that brought together the opposition | :11:13. | :11:15. | |
groups in the first place in December which got the beginnings of | :11:16. | :11:19. | |
these talks that is actually taking place. She speaks of the important | :11:20. | :11:23. | |
aspect of collecting evidence. We had a very good debate on this. We | :11:24. | :11:34. | |
are playing a leading role in making sure those are brought to justice | :11:35. | :11:40. | |
and as we saw in the case of the Serbian leader, sometimes it takes | :11:41. | :11:45. | |
many years but we are actively and heavily involved and are likely to | :11:46. | :11:51. | |
place more efforts. She finally makes an interesting comment about | :11:52. | :11:58. | |
Syria placed on the too difficult pile. I ask a different Syria might | :11:59. | :12:03. | |
look if we devoted -- if we had fought it in favour on the punitive | :12:04. | :12:09. | |
bomb strikes when Daesh didn't exist in Syria, it had no foothold | :12:10. | :12:14. | |
whatsoever? Instead, this House stepped back from that decision and | :12:15. | :12:22. | |
I think we will live to regret that. It was back in February that he was | :12:23. | :12:34. | |
slapped down by the Russian ambassador to the United Nations | :12:35. | :12:42. | |
that said he had Assad's remarks and did not chime with Russia's action. | :12:43. | :12:47. | |
He has admitted he did not get much out of his conversation with Sergey | :12:48. | :12:54. | |
Lavrov. Does he think the Commonwealth office has the capacity | :12:55. | :12:57. | |
to read Russian interests and intentions? The key relationship | :12:58. | :13:05. | |
that is developing or has developed at the moment which allows us to | :13:06. | :13:08. | |
place greater emphasis on Russia, whether it be Vladimir Putin, Sergey | :13:09. | :13:15. | |
Lavrov, is John Kerry and the closest in which John Kerry is | :13:16. | :13:18. | |
working with the Foreign Secretary shows that we're playing our part as | :13:19. | :13:23. | |
well and I would also say that from is united in perspective we are the | :13:24. | :13:26. | |
second largest donor in the country. We are doing our managerial part and | :13:27. | :13:34. | |
military part. We are at the forefront of activities but | :13:35. | :13:37. | |
ultimately this isn't for the Americans are British, it's for | :13:38. | :13:40. | |
Russia to make the determination that it is going to place the | :13:41. | :13:43. | |
pressure on Assad to allow access to the very areas that we need to get | :13:44. | :13:52. | |
the humanitarian aid into. I'd also like to thank the Minister for his | :13:53. | :13:55. | |
response and I'd like to begin biting gradually turn my honourable | :13:56. | :14:00. | |
friend on securing this urgent question. In a short time he's been | :14:01. | :14:04. | |
in the House, she has consistently stood up for the people of Syria | :14:05. | :14:11. | |
cotton is appalling conflict and I think this House can condemn the air | :14:12. | :14:17. | |
strikes and shelling in Aleppo and as is recognised by the Geneva | :14:18. | :14:22. | |
Convention, there is never any justification for attacking | :14:23. | :14:29. | |
hospitals. They believe medics in Aleppo stands in contrast with the | :14:30. | :14:32. | |
brutality of the Assad regime -- brave medics, who show their | :14:33. | :14:40. | |
disinterest in the people of Syria. We must remain committed to peace | :14:41. | :14:44. | |
talks and a political solution to the current conflicts. Britain has a | :14:45. | :14:50. | |
crucial role to play in this, particularly in supporting the US, | :14:51. | :14:56. | |
Russian ceasefire talks. It's an odd to be an active contributor to this | :14:57. | :15:00. | |
process and as a leading EU country we can wield real influence as a | :15:01. | :15:03. | |
member of Russia's most important trading block. Can I ask the | :15:04. | :15:08. | |
Minister what discussions are ongoing at EU level about exerting | :15:09. | :15:12. | |
pressure on the Russians to redouble their commitment to the ceasefire | :15:13. | :15:17. | |
and does the Minister has stated, Russia is in the strongest position | :15:18. | :15:21. | |
to tell President Assad to stop killing civilians in Aleppo and | :15:22. | :15:27. | |
along with my honourable friend, can I ask what specific steps the UK | :15:28. | :15:32. | |
Government is taking along with key allies such as Saudi Arabia to | :15:33. | :15:36. | |
encourage the Syrian opposition to recommit to the peace process? Will | :15:37. | :15:41. | |
the Minister comment on reports that the Assad regime had been using the | :15:42. | :15:47. | |
ceasefire to move troops and prepare for an assault on Aleppo? Can I ask | :15:48. | :15:53. | |
whether the Geneva negotiations include provisions for additional | :15:54. | :15:58. | |
monitoring so that all says can have confidence that a new ceasefire | :15:59. | :16:01. | |
agreement will be genuine one? At the heart of this conflict is Asia | :16:02. | :16:06. | |
managerial disaster of almost unimaginable scale so can the | :16:07. | :16:10. | |
Minister assure the House that the UK is pushing for humanitarian | :16:11. | :16:14. | |
access to be at the very heart of any new ceasefire agreement? And | :16:15. | :16:18. | |
finally, can the Minister comment on recent reports of an increasing | :16:19. | :16:23. | |
collusion between the Assad regime and Daesh? With the Assad regime | :16:24. | :16:30. | |
stepping back from confronting Daesh any number of areas will continuing | :16:31. | :16:32. | |
to trade with them and therefore provide vital funds for their | :16:33. | :16:44. | |
campaigns? I welcome the tone in which she raises these important | :16:45. | :16:46. | |
questions. We have had debates on these matters and I welcome the | :16:47. | :16:50. | |
engagement and concurrent again with the work they lady has done as | :16:51. | :17:00. | |
co-chair on the Syria. These are all part of collecting the evidence on | :17:01. | :17:11. | |
the long-term. If I made digress and pay tribute to the white helmet, | :17:12. | :17:15. | |
this is an organisation that Britain is helping to fund that helps take | :17:16. | :17:20. | |
people out of the rubble. They are the ones that are based on these | :17:21. | :17:24. | |
very dangerous areas but are trained to save the lives of those who are | :17:25. | :17:31. | |
caught up in these disastrous areas and go in there with the necessary | :17:32. | :17:35. | |
technology to try and pull the survivors out. She mentions the role | :17:36. | :17:50. | |
of EU. This group will be meeting at the very new future. She also talks | :17:51. | :17:56. | |
about the importance of the Syrian opposition and the cohesion of that. | :17:57. | :18:02. | |
I had the opportunity to meet the president of the Syrian opposition | :18:03. | :18:05. | |
in Turkey in Istanbul only a couple of weeks ago. They were very | :18:06. | :18:09. | |
pessimistic at that point about the progress that was actually being | :18:10. | :18:14. | |
made and how we have seen events unfold but given the desperate | :18:15. | :18:19. | |
nature and await agendas that they find, the fact this group has stayed | :18:20. | :18:23. | |
together I think is an indication of the determination to say we do not | :18:24. | :18:27. | |
want to be part of Daesh but we also don't want to have Assad as our | :18:28. | :18:33. | |
leader. She is right to also indicate that there is huge | :18:34. | :18:37. | |
collusion which we now Assad and Daesh. This has been a matter of | :18:38. | :18:42. | |
convenience. Reports are coming out in Palm for example fat Daesh would | :18:43. | :18:52. | |
retreat from that Avia and the Assad regime would claim this as a victory | :18:53. | :18:57. | |
but something else was happening behind the scenes clearly and she | :18:58. | :19:01. | |
also alludes to the fact that oil sales have been going on. The Assad | :19:02. | :19:10. | |
resume is short of oil reserves and Daesh has oil it can sell. | :19:11. | :19:16. | |
Thankfully the work we have been doing on countering Daesh has | :19:17. | :19:19. | |
prevented them from producing their oil and therefore gain financially | :19:20. | :19:23. | |
from the sale or the use of it itself. What is the Government's | :19:24. | :19:34. | |
current advice on Daesh given that in the past the Government has been | :19:35. | :19:38. | |
sympathetic but the opposition now feels itself in an extreme difficult | :19:39. | :19:42. | |
position? I made it clear in my opening remarks that the Assad | :19:43. | :19:48. | |
vision requires a political solution. We need to move forward | :19:49. | :19:52. | |
from that any transition process and see the eventual removal of Assad. | :19:53. | :19:56. | |
This will allow the country itself to be able to take on ten two. | :19:57. | :20:01. | |
However, the two are not mutually exclusive. We can continue with our | :20:02. | :20:07. | |
campaign to destroy Daesh. I hope we will see the liberation of the town | :20:08. | :20:15. | |
in future. This might be an urgent question but it would be helpful to | :20:16. | :20:20. | |
hear agency in the Government's response. The destruction of the | :20:21. | :20:24. | |
infrastructure in Aleppo is so want on we wonder if there will be | :20:25. | :20:29. | |
anything left worth fighting over. Priority has to be a ceasefire so | :20:30. | :20:33. | |
that you meditating aid can be provided and I wonder if the | :20:34. | :20:37. | |
Government is making or deliberating to deliver as soon as an opportunity | :20:38. | :20:46. | |
arises. The second one is what role the Government sees itself playing. | :20:47. | :20:54. | |
I would echo the calls for the Government to show some humanity and | :20:55. | :20:58. | |
reconsider its position on accompanying refugee children. On | :20:59. | :21:05. | |
the restructuring side, one of the reasons why we hosted or co-hosted | :21:06. | :21:09. | |
the important conference that took place in February was exactly for | :21:10. | :21:15. | |
that reason, to make sure that we could collect the necessary pledges | :21:16. | :21:19. | |
from around the world. This was a record amount of pledge, $11 | :21:20. | :21:27. | |
billion, the majority of which is going towards supporting the | :21:28. | :21:32. | |
refugees but those other initiatives that are taking place as well. He is | :21:33. | :21:36. | |
right that there has to be a political track. It is not for us to | :21:37. | :21:41. | |
determine that. This is part of wider coalition, the opposition | :21:42. | :21:44. | |
coalition has come together and this is exactly what the in Geneva are | :21:45. | :21:49. | |
all about. He mentions the 3000 children, it's already been | :21:50. | :21:54. | |
mentioned, apologies I have not touched on it. We are doing our best | :21:55. | :21:59. | |
to help stem the flow of refugees from the source itself. It is a huge | :22:00. | :22:07. | |
question to be asked. That is when EU member states it is felt cannot | :22:08. | :22:10. | |
look after refugees and we are taking refugees from other EU member | :22:11. | :22:14. | |
states so we have put extra funding in to make sure that the matter | :22:15. | :22:17. | |
where they come into it, these refugees are looked after to the | :22:18. | :22:23. | |
same standards but we do not want to add to the problem by encouraging | :22:24. | :22:28. | |
more people, including children, to make the perilous journey across | :22:29. | :22:34. | |
these tracks and the UK as I say is helping provide better support by | :22:35. | :22:38. | |
sending teams out to these various refugee camps to make sure they have | :22:39. | :22:41. | |
the necessary standards that you would expect if the refugees are in | :22:42. | :22:46. | |
this country. We also honour the Dublin Convention which allows the | :22:47. | :22:51. | |
transfer of children from other member states if they have a direct | :22:52. | :22:55. | |
family connection here and I'm sure that will be concurrent by the | :22:56. | :23:04. | |
refugees Minister -- concurred. This news from Aleppo emphasises that | :23:05. | :23:12. | |
Assad must not be part of the endgame in Syria but to what extent | :23:13. | :23:15. | |
with my honourable friend say that Russia has also come round to this | :23:16. | :23:19. | |
view and what work can be done to get Russia to rein in its ally, | :23:20. | :23:28. | |
Assad? Those who are familiar with the long-term relationship between | :23:29. | :23:35. | |
Russia and Syria will be aware that this is an area of the world that | :23:36. | :23:38. | |
Russia sees as their sphere of influence. Syria supported Russia | :23:39. | :23:45. | |
and the Soviet Union during the Cold War, Assad's father trained as a | :23:46. | :23:51. | |
pilot in Russia. There are strong ties between the countries. What I | :23:52. | :23:54. | |
would advocate is that Russia recognises the want to keep that | :23:55. | :23:59. | |
influence but they're not elected to the influence of Assad but the | :24:00. | :24:02. | |
political transition must move forward and the people of Syria must | :24:03. | :24:04. | |
determine who the next leader will be. | :24:05. | :24:09. | |
And while Daesh is a murderous group run by outright murderers and | :24:10. | :24:16. | |
psychopaths, the Syrian government at the moment, and for some time, | :24:17. | :24:21. | |
has carried out crimes against humanity on a far greater scale and | :24:22. | :24:28. | |
moreover aided and abetted by a member of the UN Security Council. I | :24:29. | :24:39. | |
would concur. We took steps to hold Assad to account when he crossed a | :24:40. | :24:46. | |
line and used chemical weapons. We wanted to take action and this House | :24:47. | :24:53. | |
decided it was not the needed. We must recognise there are occasions | :24:54. | :24:56. | |
when a few countries in the world can stand up to dictators such as | :24:57. | :25:01. | |
this and the rest of the world looks at countries like Britain to act and | :25:02. | :25:02. | |
we did not. Russia is central to finding a | :25:03. | :25:20. | |
long-term solution in Syria. There is a brick wall between us and them. | :25:21. | :25:26. | |
The Government would not speak to us last week. Communication has broken | :25:27. | :25:39. | |
down. Maybe now is the time to put together our outrage about the | :25:40. | :25:42. | |
annexation of Crimea and say we need to talk about Syria and Parker are | :25:43. | :25:51. | |
differences on other matters. The Defence Select Committee made | :25:52. | :25:55. | |
efforts to visit Moscow and I think it was an important visit. | :25:56. | :26:07. | |
The sanctions on Vladimir Putin are coming from the countries these | :26:08. | :26:16. | |
countries are moving across to and we should be more astute in | :26:17. | :26:19. | |
recognising this issue of Ukraine and Crimea from as perspective is | :26:20. | :26:23. | |
linked to what is happening in Syria. Surely the Minister is aware | :26:24. | :26:31. | |
of the draft statements are calling amongst NGOs working in Aleppo where | :26:32. | :26:38. | |
they have said there is a complete absence of the fundamentals of safe | :26:39. | :26:43. | |
humanitarian intervention and the absence of a clear mechanism to | :26:44. | :26:49. | |
monitor document violations of international humanitarian law and | :26:50. | :26:59. | |
human rights law. Is that the case? As she is aware, access to Aleppo is | :27:00. | :27:05. | |
difficult and we are collecting intelligence for the longevity but | :27:06. | :27:09. | |
she is right to highlight the complexities of this large city, not | :27:10. | :27:13. | |
least because the al-Nusra Front is based there and this is where Assad | :27:14. | :27:18. | |
has taken advantage of the ceasefire to move weapons to this area as | :27:19. | :27:24. | |
well. This is why it is important for Russia to exert its influence to | :27:25. | :27:27. | |
make sure Assad comes back to the table. Sir Edward Leigh. We have to | :27:28. | :27:37. | |
accept Syria as it is. Whether we like it or not, Assad is not going | :27:38. | :27:40. | |
away. He has the only army on the ground capable of defeating Isis and | :27:41. | :27:47. | |
has as much support as the other warring faction. If you undermine | :27:48. | :27:55. | |
him you unleash worse forces. It is significant that progress has been | :27:56. | :27:59. | |
as a result of contact between America and Russia. If we put Russia | :28:00. | :28:05. | |
in deep freeze, denying them visas, not talking to lover of, -- Sergei | :28:06. | :28:17. | |
ladder... We must drop our present policy and cooperate with the | :28:18. | :28:22. | |
Americans and Russia to get peace. I don't agree with what he said but I | :28:23. | :28:26. | |
agree with the direction of travel. Russia has influence over Assad. We | :28:27. | :28:31. | |
are speaking with the Russians. John Kerry is in Geneva along with | :28:32. | :28:38. | |
Russians and other characters. They recognise the urgency in | :28:39. | :28:44. | |
renegotiating the cessation of hostilities so we can get the | :28:45. | :28:52. | |
humanitarian aid back in. The Minister referred to the long-term. | :28:53. | :28:57. | |
How long is long-term? He also made reference to the vote in this House | :28:58. | :29:02. | |
in 2013. Isn't the real failure the fact that our government and the US | :29:03. | :29:07. | |
government didn't impose no-fly zones and humanitarian corridors in | :29:08. | :29:12. | |
2011 and 2012 when they could have and now it may be very difficult to | :29:13. | :29:16. | |
do so but that is the real failure, not intervention. I am a former | :29:17. | :29:27. | |
soldier and I looked at the idea of no-fly zones and humanitarian | :29:28. | :29:31. | |
corridors, even wrote some papers when I was on the backbenches. The | :29:32. | :29:36. | |
trouble you get is that who implements them and what authority | :29:37. | :29:41. | |
do you have to be in the country? We wanted to take Syria through the UN | :29:42. | :29:45. | |
Security Council to the International Criminal Court and | :29:46. | :29:48. | |
guess who vetoed it? China and Russia. That is the difficulty we | :29:49. | :29:54. | |
have. How do you implement and enforce a no-fly zone as such? I | :29:55. | :29:59. | |
agree with the spirit of what he says but this is the reality of | :30:00. | :30:00. | |
where we are. I think the most important concern | :30:01. | :30:18. | |
was unaccompanied children as their safety and I wonder whether we have | :30:19. | :30:22. | |
our policy the wrong way round. 3000 children wandering around Europe can | :30:23. | :30:32. | |
easily be picked up by traffickers. 3000 children in the Middle East can | :30:33. | :30:38. | |
be kept safely in camps and I wonder whether we should actually look at | :30:39. | :30:49. | |
our policy again. The concern expressed regarding the 3000 | :30:50. | :30:54. | |
children are absolutely sincere indeed. The solution simply not to | :30:55. | :30:59. | |
remove the challenge from the area itself but solve their challenge in | :31:00. | :31:04. | |
the area itself. We cannot endorse the idea that it is acceptable for | :31:05. | :31:10. | |
other EU states not to meet their requirements, basic requirements for | :31:11. | :31:15. | |
looking after refugees. By us taking those refugees we are simply | :31:16. | :31:18. | |
providing more space for par at the refugees to come in. That is not the | :31:19. | :31:24. | |
answer to this long-term solution. The minister was diverted from the | :31:25. | :31:27. | |
path of virtue by the honourable gentleman, the member from Beckenham | :31:28. | :31:35. | |
with no doubt good intentions, but string somewhat from the terms of | :31:36. | :31:39. | |
the urgent question. I have facilitated much discussion on the | :31:40. | :31:42. | |
matter of refugees and I rather imagine there will be more. No doubt | :31:43. | :31:47. | |
people will feel there should be. It would be best today if we could | :31:48. | :31:51. | |
stick to the terms of the urgent question which honourable lady | :31:52. | :31:58. | |
applied for and which I granted. The minister quite rightly spoke about | :31:59. | :32:00. | |
the influence of Russia but can I ask what pressure is being put on | :32:01. | :32:05. | |
Iran who are equally have supported the Assad regime but through its | :32:06. | :32:15. | |
proxies such as Hezbollah? Has the Foreign Office opened up dialogue | :32:16. | :32:22. | |
with Iran? In terms of the Iran deal, are they putting pressure on | :32:23. | :32:26. | |
them to make sure they respond? That is an important point. If Iran is to | :32:27. | :32:32. | |
take a more responsible role following the nuclear deal on the | :32:33. | :32:37. | |
international stage then we anticipate and expect it to act in a | :32:38. | :32:42. | |
more honourable way whether it is in Damascus in Beirut, Baghdad or | :32:43. | :32:54. | |
Yemen. We are not seeing that to date. He is right that Hezbollah | :32:55. | :32:58. | |
continued to play an important role but we see a difference in opinion | :32:59. | :33:01. | |
between what Iran and Russia are looking for. When you hear | :33:02. | :33:10. | |
first-hand from charities and NGOs that run hospitals in places like | :33:11. | :33:16. | |
Aleppo, of those hospitals being in some cases repeatedly bombed by the | :33:17. | :33:19. | |
regime and Russian forces, the temptation is to come to this place | :33:20. | :33:25. | |
and rage against the system and use those well worn words something must | :33:26. | :33:30. | |
be done. But in reality this is the most complex situation. What we want | :33:31. | :33:34. | |
to hear and I think I have heard it alluded to is that everything is | :33:35. | :33:38. | |
being done to work with the Russians to create a framework whereby safe | :33:39. | :33:47. | |
areas and indeed is possible error corridors delivering aid can be | :33:48. | :33:52. | |
delivered and that must be away of ensuring it is humanitarian aid. | :33:53. | :33:59. | |
Even having a Russian in Akrotiri and seeing what goes on the plane. | :34:00. | :34:05. | |
We discussed these things over the weekend and I know he has followed | :34:06. | :34:08. | |
events closely and he knows he go working in the region as well. It is | :34:09. | :34:14. | |
important that we look to a more long-term solution for access to the | :34:15. | :34:21. | |
monitoring corridors. The Foreign Secretary is talking with John Kerry | :34:22. | :34:24. | |
this afternoon and I hope we will have more to report over time. I | :34:25. | :34:29. | |
think I heard the Minister say in his reply to the question that 49 | :34:30. | :34:36. | |
children have been killed in recent hostilities. If I am correct can I | :34:37. | :34:40. | |
ask the Minister to repeat those facts to the House so it is clear to | :34:41. | :34:44. | |
everybody what is happening and for him to say what worked the | :34:45. | :34:48. | |
Government is carrying out to make sure there is medical care for | :34:49. | :34:54. | |
children in Aleppo. I am happy to confirm what I said before. | :34:55. | :34:56. | |
According to human rights monitors at least 252 civilians including 49 | :34:57. | :35:03. | |
children were killed in the city of Aleppo in the last four nights | :35:04. | :35:12. | |
alone. -- 253. The situation in Aleppo is very fluid because of the | :35:13. | :35:16. | |
advances the Assad government is wanting to do. It is objective is to | :35:17. | :35:27. | |
take this northern city, a key prize which would have a huge impact if it | :35:28. | :35:34. | |
fell from the coalition. It is vital that we provide access to make sure | :35:35. | :35:38. | |
areas such as hospitals are not bombed. We must look at whether this | :35:39. | :35:47. | |
is a case of giving great grid references -- grid references to | :35:48. | :35:50. | |
make sure they are recognised, not least because it is a breach of the | :35:51. | :35:57. | |
Geneva Convention. He twice use that phrase in order to break the logjam | :35:58. | :36:00. | |
we must have a political transition of a Syrian government. Could hear | :36:01. | :36:04. | |
right now is what that means? Unpalatable as it may be, could that | :36:05. | :36:10. | |
mean Assad has a role in a temporary transitional government, or at least | :36:11. | :36:15. | |
if not Assad, some of his key officials? When the international | :36:16. | :36:22. | |
Syrian workforce came together for the first time it discussed a | :36:23. | :36:29. | |
timetable of transition and this was to allow the various diverse | :36:30. | :36:37. | |
stakeholders across the country itself to determine the timetable | :36:38. | :36:40. | |
itself, a timetable of two years was brought forward, but these are | :36:41. | :36:48. | |
always in the realms of speculation. I hope that the Geneva talks, where | :36:49. | :36:51. | |
these discussions need to take place, will resume discussions on | :36:52. | :36:59. | |
this issue. The Minister set out what the Secretary of State said in | :37:00. | :37:04. | |
his representations to the Russians following the hospital bombing, a | :37:05. | :37:07. | |
gross violation of international law? Did he ask them to tell Assad | :37:08. | :37:13. | |
to stop and what was the Russians' response? I am not privy to the | :37:14. | :37:22. | |
exact wording. The Foreign Secretary arrives back this afternoon and I | :37:23. | :37:25. | |
will ask him to write to the honourable member directly. Five | :37:26. | :37:32. | |
years of conflict and anymore is too long. I hope members across the | :37:33. | :37:37. | |
House. The Government and international committee to bring | :37:38. | :37:43. | |
peace to this country. What is the Government doing to ship plans for | :37:44. | :37:51. | |
post conflict reconstruction? Although it has been five years, the | :37:52. | :37:55. | |
difference of the last five or six months has been that negotiations | :37:56. | :37:58. | |
have taken place and stakeholders have been programmed the table. . | :37:59. | :38:14. | |
This is not happened in the last five years. The major change from | :38:15. | :38:18. | |
the previous five years is coalition members round the table. There was | :38:19. | :38:24. | |
an important step of looking at the details of what the international | :38:25. | :38:27. | |
community must do once the guns fall silent eventually. Along with my | :38:28. | :38:36. | |
honourable friend for North Welcher I was in Moscow last week and one | :38:37. | :38:40. | |
thing I found most of cult is that we have now shared understanding of | :38:41. | :38:44. | |
history or old language in terms of diplomacy and therefore I find it | :38:45. | :38:48. | |
concerning that we are talking in vague words about how we genuinely | :38:49. | :38:51. | |
bring Russia to the table for discussion, maybe through proxies, | :38:52. | :38:57. | |
so can we have more detail about what that plan would be? I am | :38:58. | :39:07. | |
pleased to say that she was able to make it to Moscow and I look forward | :39:08. | :39:11. | |
to any reports she might be putting forward as to what they learned from | :39:12. | :39:17. | |
discussions there. She is right to place the focus on Russia itself and | :39:18. | :39:20. | |
for us to have a better understanding on what Russia's | :39:21. | :39:30. | |
intentions are, because most of it is the president met trying to make | :39:31. | :39:36. | |
his mark and provide distractions of the domestic versus country is in. | :39:37. | :39:42. | |
I welcome the minister in forming the House that the Government is | :39:43. | :39:47. | |
committed to gathering evidence on Thames of crimes against humanity | :39:48. | :39:51. | |
but could the minister update the host what protection is being given | :39:52. | :39:54. | |
to Christian communities and neighbouring countries? She is right | :39:55. | :39:59. | |
to highlight the plight of the Christians, not least in areas with | :40:00. | :40:10. | |
the Yazidis. We saw devastating attacks. We had a debate on these | :40:11. | :40:13. | |
matters a couple of weeks ago and it is important we collect the | :40:14. | :40:20. | |
evidence. It would place them in danger. We are providing an awful | :40:21. | :40:24. | |
lot of work to make sure we can collect that necessary forensic, | :40:25. | :40:29. | |
legal evidence which allows us to make the case of the UN Security | :40:30. | :40:33. | |
Council to take this forward. I think we can all condemned the | :40:34. | :40:37. | |
bombings of civilian is in Aleppo but can I ask the minister was | :40:38. | :40:42. | |
specific action in the UK is undertaking a conjunction with our | :40:43. | :40:46. | |
European partners to try and kick-start the peace process which, | :40:47. | :40:53. | |
as others have mentioned, is seriously...? I would repeat the | :40:54. | :40:59. | |
support we are trying to get for the managerial initiative that takes | :41:00. | :41:04. | |
place. We're the second largest donor and I think Syrian conference | :41:05. | :41:08. | |
is critical in helping refugees not only in Syria but in Lebanon, Jordan | :41:09. | :41:12. | |
and Turkey. I played tribute to those countries -- pay tribute. | :41:13. | :41:20. | |
Talks are taking place behind the scenes to pressurise Russia to make | :41:21. | :41:23. | |
sure Sergey Lavrov and Vladimir Putin realise they are best placed | :41:24. | :41:27. | |
to alert you meditating access to prevent the bombing of civilian | :41:28. | :41:38. | |
areas. I welcome the statement by the Minister. Looking at the | :41:39. | :41:41. | |
statement on the BBC website is says that John Kerry says that Syrian | :41:42. | :41:46. | |
conflict is now out of control. If that is the case, why is the | :41:47. | :41:50. | |
minister optimistic that the current talks will lead to a solution? | :41:51. | :41:54. | |
Aleppo is the last on hold for the opposition. If that false, one may | :41:55. | :41:58. | |
ask why the opposition should take part in further talks in Geneva. He | :41:59. | :42:04. | |
is right to point out by the Syrian opposition pulled out from the | :42:05. | :42:07. | |
talks. It was pointless sitting down to talks in Geneva on your own | :42:08. | :42:12. | |
communities are being bombed back at home. Whilst the situation has grown | :42:13. | :42:17. | |
out of control we have seen the cessation of hostilities break down. | :42:18. | :42:21. | |
John Kerry's current initiative with Sergey Lavrov to make sure that | :42:22. | :42:30. | |
hostilities can be resumed. As I mentioned in my statement, that is | :42:31. | :42:38. | |
working. The recent bombing of hospitals to place in a city that | :42:39. | :42:42. | |
already has a severe shortage of doctors because of the events of the | :42:43. | :42:44. | |
last three or four years will stop what can the Minister do to ensure | :42:45. | :42:49. | |
any ceasefire not only has humanitarian aid at its heart but | :42:50. | :42:54. | |
resumption of medical facilities as well as prevent humanitarian | :42:55. | :43:00. | |
catastrophe? In the silos of the London Syria conference, there were | :43:01. | :43:06. | |
major workshops that took place and there is huge and of effort which | :43:07. | :43:11. | |
would be confirmed by the Minister that are ready to move in but at the | :43:12. | :43:14. | |
moment the situation is just too dangerous for that to be able to | :43:15. | :43:23. | |
happen on a large scale. Time is not on the side of the people of Aleppo. | :43:24. | :43:27. | |
On Sunday night, the main and only road for those in rebel held east | :43:28. | :43:31. | |
was bombed. If the regime clauses that route, only 200,000 residents | :43:32. | :43:38. | |
will be trapped without food and medical supplies. Pressure on Russia | :43:39. | :43:41. | |
is key. Can I urge my rate honourable thing to urge to Russia | :43:42. | :43:48. | |
that time is running out? My honourable friend makes her point | :43:49. | :43:52. | |
very powerfully. The fact we are having this debate is another method | :43:53. | :43:58. | |
of us communicating with Russia, to see we care, we recognise what is | :43:59. | :44:03. | |
going on, Russia you need to do more and currently you're not doing that. | :44:04. | :44:10. | |
It is estimated that recent violence in Aleppo has led to the death of a | :44:11. | :44:15. | |
Syrian every 25 minutes. There is grave humanitarian urgency. What | :44:16. | :44:19. | |
progress is the Government making with negotiations to take aid trucks | :44:20. | :44:25. | |
into Aleppo and if this doesn't progress, well high altitude | :44:26. | :44:34. | |
airdrops BV considered? She raises an important point and how we can | :44:35. | :44:37. | |
both get made into these vulnerable areas and a -- this horrific | :44:38. | :44:49. | |
challenge highlights it. We must place more stress on Russia and make | :44:50. | :44:52. | |
sure Assad is prevented from bombing these areas and then we can get aid | :44:53. | :44:56. | |
in. The best way to get abilities to get to is by truck by Jimmy the | :44:57. | :44:59. | |
permissions from the local checkpoints to go through the | :45:00. | :45:05. | |
grounds for all of that to happen. If we lose all to air drops, the | :45:06. | :45:10. | |
often land in wrong hands and used as him method to worsen the | :45:11. | :45:16. | |
situation -- used as a method, and the people who denied it. Our | :45:17. | :45:26. | |
sentinel aircraft and unmanned air vehicles provided a very complex but | :45:27. | :45:32. | |
detailed a picture over Syria. As evidence being gathered of who the | :45:33. | :45:36. | |
perpetrators are of these attacks on civilians? If there is evidence, how | :45:37. | :45:40. | |
is it then being presented to the native Nations and other nations? I | :45:41. | :45:48. | |
pay tribute to my honourable friend for the work he has done in a | :45:49. | :45:52. | |
previous campaign. He has a huge amount of knowledge of what the | :45:53. | :45:56. | |
Harry F do. He will also benefit the sheet it is an operational question | :45:57. | :45:59. | |
which prevents me from giving him a firm answer. The bombing and | :46:00. | :46:11. | |
shelling of civilian areas in Aleppo is sickening and serious calls into | :46:12. | :46:18. | |
question the Assad regime's commitment to a peaceful resolution | :46:19. | :46:25. | |
in Syria but so too do the attempts to collude and trade with Daesh as | :46:26. | :46:30. | |
has been outlined by my honourable friend the Shadow minister. What are | :46:31. | :46:36. | |
the Foreign Commonwealth Office doing to bring together all sides | :46:37. | :46:41. | |
and make clear that this kind of action is compromising the very | :46:42. | :46:44. | |
efforts we are trying to secure, which is a peaceful settlement | :46:45. | :46:53. | |
within Syria? The honourable gentleman articulate so complicated | :46:54. | :46:57. | |
Syria is but it should not stop us doing our part on bringing Daesh to | :46:58. | :47:02. | |
account. We are destroying Daesh on the battlefield, we are destroying | :47:03. | :47:06. | |
the ideology and ability to get their message out there the Internet | :47:07. | :47:11. | |
and will also providing humanitarian aid and stabilisation in places that | :47:12. | :47:14. | |
have been liberated but the piece of the jigsaw that remains difficult as | :47:15. | :47:20. | |
the political transition in Syria and that is why it is so urgent that | :47:21. | :47:30. | |
talks resume in Geneva. In addition to UK diplomatic efforts and ?2.3 | :47:31. | :47:39. | |
billion worth of aid to the region, with reports of collusion between | :47:40. | :47:46. | |
the Assad regime and Daesh in Syria, can my right honourable friend give | :47:47. | :47:53. | |
an assurance that those British air strikes are focused and have not | :47:54. | :48:00. | |
resulted in civilian casualties? Again, it's an operational question. | :48:01. | :48:02. | |
If I may write to the honourable gentleman I will give him a full | :48:03. | :48:07. | |
reply as to what is done. The rules of engagement we adopt and comply | :48:08. | :48:14. | |
with do ensure that we try and avoid civilian casualties at all times but | :48:15. | :48:17. | |
I will write to him with more detail. Tie at the minister will be | :48:18. | :48:25. | |
sent contact has been made with the Peshmerga in defeating Daesh and | :48:26. | :48:30. | |
building a stable future across Syria? The question just gives me | :48:31. | :48:40. | |
license to pay to get to the Peshmerga and the liberation work | :48:41. | :48:45. | |
they have done and indeed the north of Iraq. It is important they | :48:46. | :48:51. | |
recognise the importance of working with the Iraqi army itself as an | :48:52. | :48:58. | |
indigenous capability. It improves if we can liberate towns and Iraq | :48:59. | :49:05. | |
from Daesh completely. I'm most grateful to the Minister and other | :49:06. | :49:12. | |
colleagues. Urgent question. Lucianne. To as the Secretary of | :49:13. | :49:19. | |
State to make a statement on the safety of care and services provided | :49:20. | :49:25. | |
by Southern Health NHS foundation trust. I thank the honourable lady | :49:26. | :49:33. | |
for her question. I want to express my concern and apology to the | :49:34. | :49:36. | |
patients and family members who will again have been let down for the | :49:37. | :49:46. | |
contents of last week us CQC report. This applies to all of us with a | :49:47. | :49:50. | |
role to play in the NHS from the front led to this House and the | :49:51. | :49:53. | |
Government is clear it is best to be open and transparent into what has | :49:54. | :49:57. | |
gone wrong to minimise the risk of similar feelings across the NHS as a | :49:58. | :50:01. | |
whole. We must ensure the trust itself continues to be scrutinised | :50:02. | :50:04. | |
and supported to make rapid improvements in care. Regulators | :50:05. | :50:12. | |
will not hesitate to take necessary action and we will back them. Last | :50:13. | :50:19. | |
week's report followed an inspection requested by the Secretary of State | :50:20. | :50:24. | |
in 2015. The report from the CQC set out a number of concerns including a | :50:25. | :50:27. | |
lack of robust governance arrangements to investigate | :50:28. | :50:33. | |
accidents and incidents, a lack of arrangements to respond to patient | :50:34. | :50:36. | |
safety concerns and need for immediate action to address safety | :50:37. | :50:41. | |
in the trust environment and it also found that the senior management and | :50:42. | :50:45. | |
board agendas were not driven by the need to address these issues. None | :50:46. | :50:50. | |
of these matters are acceptable. NHS improvement has taken place in | :50:51. | :50:55. | |
recent months to improve things that the trust. It has worked closely | :50:56. | :51:00. | |
with the CQC and on the 24th of March, NHS improvement appointed a | :51:01. | :51:05. | |
director to the trust. On April 14 following a warning notice from the | :51:06. | :51:09. | |
CQC, NHS Cammack improvement place an additional condition on the trust | :51:10. | :51:12. | |
license asking it to make urgent patient safety improvements. This | :51:13. | :51:22. | |
gave NHS Improvement the power to make changes if it does not act on | :51:23. | :51:27. | |
fixing the concerns raised. On the 20 need of April following the | :51:28. | :51:33. | |
resignation of the trust chair, -- 29th. As chair, Mr Smart will have | :51:34. | :51:41. | |
responsibility for looking at the adequacy. I welcome the action taken | :51:42. | :51:48. | |
by NHS Improvement. The appointment of a new chair by regulator is a | :51:49. | :51:58. | |
relatively new step. NHS Improvement will monitor the situation closely | :51:59. | :52:02. | |
in the coming weeks and months. I understand the CQC is considering | :52:03. | :52:06. | |
its response and the risks it highlights before deciding to take | :52:07. | :52:09. | |
further enforcement action and none of its options are close. Doctor | :52:10. | :52:19. | |
Paul Elliott, deputy chief inspector at CQC directly responsible for the | :52:20. | :52:23. | |
port and to whom I spoke this afternoon, that delivery plan | :52:24. | :52:28. | |
required by the 27th of April has been received and is being | :52:29. | :52:31. | |
evaluated. NHS Improvement is working closely with the NHS and | :52:32. | :52:40. | |
someone is on site regularly so there is constant oversight and | :52:41. | :52:43. | |
progress being made as well as further progress meetings being | :52:44. | :52:50. | |
made. In addition to the action on Southern Health, it is vital we | :52:51. | :52:55. | |
learn wider lessons for the NHS as a whole. It is right we have robust, | :52:56. | :53:04. | |
inspection that provides issues of safety leadership and this is backed | :53:05. | :53:08. | |
by NHS leadership were required. It is vital that we take avoidable | :53:09. | :53:15. | |
mortality for people with mental health problems and disabilities as | :53:16. | :53:22. | |
seriously as we do for other people. The review programme has been put in | :53:23. | :53:26. | |
place by NHS England to make sure this inequality is understood with | :53:27. | :53:29. | |
and into the elimination. In addition, CQC will be leading a | :53:30. | :53:33. | |
review of how deaths are investigated including those of | :53:34. | :53:36. | |
people with disabilities and mental health needs. There can be no | :53:37. | :53:40. | |
question that this CQC port makes for disturbing reading and the | :53:41. | :53:44. | |
demands action at local and national levels. We want our most honourable | :53:45. | :53:50. | |
people safe and secure and we will do all we can to ensure patient | :53:51. | :53:51. | |
safety. They should have a right to be angry | :53:52. | :54:09. | |
at the failure of NHS trusts. We have a duty to be angry on their | :54:10. | :54:15. | |
behalf. To read the litany of failure, missed warnings, reports | :54:16. | :54:20. | |
and see Gucci -- secrecy over the last four years would make anyone | :54:21. | :54:27. | |
angry. Fridays report shows very little has been done since he | :54:28. | :54:30. | |
discussed the matter in December. The scandal at Southern health | :54:31. | :54:34. | |
happened on this covenant's watch and ministers must take | :54:35. | :54:38. | |
responsibility for what has happened to some of the most vulnerable | :54:39. | :54:44. | |
people in the country. We should be angry, sparrowhawk was left to drown | :54:45. | :54:49. | |
in a bath and that Angela Smith took on life and that David Weston died | :54:50. | :54:55. | |
in the care of this NHS Trust. His father was repeatedly ignored when | :54:56. | :54:58. | |
he raised concerns. All were denied the care they so desperately needed. | :54:59. | :55:04. | |
Last week the BBC reported that over the past five years 12 patients who | :55:05. | :55:08. | |
had been detained for the safety of themselves or others have jumped off | :55:09. | :55:11. | |
the roof of a hospital run by this trust. Access to a roof was still | :55:12. | :55:17. | |
permitted to people at risk of suicide. If all these tragic | :55:18. | :55:23. | |
incidents were the only signs of failure then we should be angry but | :55:24. | :55:28. | |
there is a much bigger story of neglect and malpractice which | :55:29. | :55:35. | |
aggregates into a major scandal. When the Secretary of State | :55:36. | :55:37. | |
responded he rightly said more than anything people will want to know | :55:38. | :55:40. | |
that the NHS loans from such tragedies. The CQC report published | :55:41. | :55:48. | |
on Friday shows this clearly has not happened. I asked the minister what | :55:49. | :55:57. | |
guarantees you can get to the party put thousands patients in the care | :55:58. | :56:03. | |
of the trust that they are safe? And where is the accountability? The | :56:04. | :56:08. | |
culpability and the responsibility? There seems to be very little. I | :56:09. | :56:14. | |
heard what he said about the chair but does he agree that the position | :56:15. | :56:17. | |
of chief executive is untenable and she should be sacked. Will he | :56:18. | :56:25. | |
listened to the heartfelt pleas of families and campaigners who aren't | :56:26. | :56:31. | |
demanding a full public inquiry into Southern health and the broader | :56:32. | :56:37. | |
issues such as the failure to investigate deaths? These issues are | :56:38. | :56:43. | |
not confined to one trust and the Ofsted style ratings will only make | :56:44. | :56:48. | |
a difference there is proper accountability and the | :56:49. | :56:53. | |
accountability to take action and make real improvements to patient | :56:54. | :56:58. | |
care and safety. The families have behaved with such dignity and | :56:59. | :57:02. | |
tenacity and we owe them a debt of gratitude but it should not be left | :57:03. | :57:05. | |
to the families alone to push for accountability. I listened very | :57:06. | :57:10. | |
carefully to what the Minister told the House but I remain unconvinced | :57:11. | :57:21. | |
enough has changed. We debate the Government's failure to act. The | :57:22. | :57:23. | |
time for hollow reassurances is over. We need action and we need it | :57:24. | :57:37. | |
now. We are not actually debating the Government's failure. The | :57:38. | :57:41. | |
Secretary of State did what he said he would do and inquiry was made. | :57:42. | :57:52. | |
People are right to be angry but there is a process to find out what | :57:53. | :57:56. | |
is going on and do something about it and that process is in place. | :57:57. | :58:03. | |
That is what NHS improvement does. There is an issue of urgency. I | :58:04. | :58:09. | |
think that is important. Things take time to get done. I am not content | :58:10. | :58:14. | |
with that in any way at all. But the process is in place to do something | :58:15. | :58:19. | |
about it. The engagement of the CQC and the fact it has ruled out no | :58:20. | :58:29. | |
further options in terms of taking action and prosecutions, the process | :58:30. | :58:34. | |
is not yet finished but what the Secretary of State began, the | :58:35. | :58:41. | |
commitment to patient safety cannot be denied by anyone, and this is a | :58:42. | :58:47. | |
further part of that. Other issues mentioned, I asked the same question | :58:48. | :58:50. | |
about safety to the CQC this afternoon. I asked if people were | :58:51. | :58:57. | |
safe at the foundation trust today. They are safe because the CQC as we | :58:58. | :59:04. | |
know as powers to shut down places immediately if there is a risk to | :59:05. | :59:12. | |
patients. They have not done so and therefore I am absolutely persuaded | :59:13. | :59:15. | |
that if the CQC found such risks they would have close things down. | :59:16. | :59:26. | |
The chief executive's position, the power to deal with management | :59:27. | :59:29. | |
changes held by NHS improvement. I offer a brief word of caution. There | :59:30. | :59:35. | |
is a track record of ministers speaking out about the removal of | :59:36. | :59:39. | |
people in positions of which they have no authority at great cost. | :59:40. | :59:44. | |
Understandably in situations of great concerns it seems an angry | :59:45. | :59:49. | |
response is the right thing but it is not. The chair has gone and there | :59:50. | :59:54. | |
are processes available should be any more management changes | :59:55. | :59:59. | |
necessary. Colleagues can say what they like but a minister cannot and | :00:00. | :00:04. | |
the appropriate processes must be followed. In terms of inquiry, I do | :00:05. | :00:09. | |
not know yet. I want to wait and see what comes out of the further work | :00:10. | :00:15. | |
doing in terms of the trust. I am not ruling out a former further | :00:16. | :00:20. | |
inquiry but an inquiry is physically being done now by the action taking | :00:21. | :00:22. | |
place on the ground. What needs to... Should be more | :00:23. | :00:37. | |
necessary? Maybe. But I need to consider it in terms of what further | :00:38. | :00:43. | |
work is being done at the trust. With preventable deaths, I am sure | :00:44. | :00:47. | |
those cases which require further investigation right across the | :00:48. | :00:53. | |
system dating back many years and preceding this government, there has | :00:54. | :00:56. | |
not been enough attention but we have turned our attention to that | :00:57. | :00:59. | |
and we will make changes because that must end. The report makes | :01:00. | :01:15. | |
disturbing reading. We ever going to -- we are never going to tackle | :01:16. | :01:19. | |
inequality in health unless we assess safety and risk as with the | :01:20. | :01:23. | |
Minister go further on the mortality review to set out how we can see | :01:24. | :01:27. | |
where differences exist around the country? Would he also reassure the | :01:28. | :01:34. | |
House that the duty of candour will be in future more than a kick in the | :01:35. | :01:43. | |
box? The tech in the box for duty of candour was certainly unacceptable. | :01:44. | :01:51. | |
The learning disability mortality review programme is important and it | :01:52. | :01:56. | |
will support local areas to review these deaths and use information to | :01:57. | :02:00. | |
improve services. In time it will also show at a national level if | :02:01. | :02:05. | |
things are improving for people with learning disabilities and fewer | :02:06. | :02:08. | |
people are dying from preventable causes. It is underway as a pilot in | :02:09. | :02:12. | |
the North East and Cumbria and that will help us as it is rolled out. | :02:13. | :02:18. | |
There are plans to roll out the review in all places in England | :02:19. | :02:23. | |
between now and 2018 with pilots commencing in 2016, 17. It is right | :02:24. | :02:38. | |
we are doing this work now. The report, is said, makes grim reading | :02:39. | :02:46. | |
for the many families of patients in the care of Southern health care | :02:47. | :02:51. | |
trust. The Minister has said those failings are not just isolated to | :02:52. | :02:57. | |
this trust but they got a much wider scale. Can the Minister tell me | :02:58. | :03:03. | |
whether in the light of that he is thinking seriously about the idea of | :03:04. | :03:08. | |
a public inquiry which can get to the underlying factors in this | :03:09. | :03:17. | |
matter? And the patients and families, some of them are my | :03:18. | :03:24. | |
constituencies can be reassured that things are not brushed under the | :03:25. | :03:29. | |
carpet? It is vital that is not the case. It is important is to put on | :03:30. | :03:34. | |
record there are some positive aspects of this report in relation | :03:35. | :03:39. | |
to Southampton which I'm sure he will already have seen where the | :03:40. | :03:43. | |
trust is commended for the work it has done. I really don't know at | :03:44. | :03:53. | |
this stage whether an inquiry is the right thing to do. I am very well | :03:54. | :03:57. | |
aware of the seriousness of this and of the questions that the families | :03:58. | :04:00. | |
have raised and the fact this has been going on for some time. The | :04:01. | :04:04. | |
important thing is both to effect change as well as find out what has | :04:05. | :04:13. | |
happened. The CQC report is quite in-depth, public and transparent and | :04:14. | :04:17. | |
that may well have the answer is required but, if not, there may be | :04:18. | :04:22. | |
something further needed so that is why I have an open mind. The most | :04:23. | :04:27. | |
important thing is to give the reassurance of things that have | :04:28. | :04:32. | |
happened, which the CQC report cannot do because that is the work | :04:33. | :04:39. | |
which is going on right now. People with learning disabilities must have | :04:40. | :04:44. | |
confidence in the services provided by Southern Health. The failings | :04:45. | :04:49. | |
identified are unacceptable and disturbing and I welcome that | :04:50. | :04:54. | |
Minister's statement and the CQC's action regarding the warning notice. | :04:55. | :05:00. | |
Will the Minister join me in paying tribute to the dedicated staff at | :05:01. | :05:03. | |
Southern Health facilities who are not indicated in these problems? | :05:04. | :05:12. | |
Including a hospital in my constituency which provides a | :05:13. | :05:16. | |
much-needed facility with dedicated staff running it? When I got the | :05:17. | :05:21. | |
report over the weekend and turned to the summary of findings, the | :05:22. | :05:26. | |
first positive summary finding mentioned was, and I quote, staff | :05:27. | :05:31. | |
were kind, caring and supportive and treated agents with respect and | :05:32. | :05:34. | |
dignity. Patients reported some staff went the extra mile. It is | :05:35. | :05:40. | |
important to put that on the record. It does not minimise things that are | :05:41. | :05:44. | |
wrong but in a trust which is so large and covers such a wide area | :05:45. | :05:49. | |
and number of people, it is important that good work is | :05:50. | :05:55. | |
recognised and areas and faults of management and governments should | :05:56. | :06:02. | |
not be laid at everyone's door. I note in passing that four members | :06:03. | :06:05. | |
are standing on the opposition benches and none of them comes from | :06:06. | :06:10. | |
the area covered, I think, which does not preclude a question but I | :06:11. | :06:13. | |
should just make the point of the question must be about this trust | :06:14. | :06:19. | |
and this set of circumstances rather than as is commonly deployed in the | :06:20. | :06:27. | |
House, "And elsewhere". It is just about this matter and this trust. | :06:28. | :06:40. | |
Thank you. I just want to ask the question, how long does it take to | :06:41. | :06:47. | |
effect change? 45 years ago, the Ely Hospital inquiry took place under | :06:48. | :06:53. | |
the chairmanship of Geoffrey Howe. Recommendations were made and a | :06:54. | :07:01. | |
report was written on the condition of mental health facilities | :07:02. | :07:14. | |
throughout Wales. It seems to me things are going at such a slow pace | :07:15. | :07:19. | |
we will be asking the same question again in 45 years. The frustration | :07:20. | :07:35. | |
in the NHS is that what she says is true in some places is not in | :07:36. | :07:40. | |
others. The special measures is affected change and affected it more | :07:41. | :07:43. | |
quickly. There are other places that does not happen. I am concerned that | :07:44. | :07:46. | |
for too long in mental health that getting things | :07:47. | :08:02. | |
done more quickly and with a degree of urgency generally does not always | :08:03. | :08:10. | |
happen. I am determined that any difficulties in getting things done | :08:11. | :08:14. | |
at local level in trusts when they need to be done will not be aided or | :08:15. | :08:18. | |
abetted by any lack of urgency in the Department or the upper reaches | :08:19. | :08:22. | |
of the NHS with which we have got contact. The concerned to make sure | :08:23. | :08:28. | |
that urgency is there is rightfully expressed by the House and we must | :08:29. | :08:38. | |
see that is delivered. 2011 and 2012, I was locked in a bitter | :08:39. | :08:42. | |
confrontation with Southern Health foundation trust over the | :08:43. | :08:47. | |
determination of its top management to close no fewer than 58 out of its | :08:48. | :08:56. | |
165 acute inpatient beds for people suffering mental health illnesses | :08:57. | :09:02. | |
and breakdowns. It is the only constituency issue over which I've | :09:03. | :09:05. | |
ever suffered sleepless nights and I have failed to stop the -- I failed | :09:06. | :09:11. | |
to stop the trust causing the wins award in the relatively new wood | :09:12. | :09:16. | |
Haven Hospital in my constituency. Today, apart from this terrible | :09:17. | :09:22. | |
issue about the deaths, the system remains over full, the beds are too | :09:23. | :09:31. | |
few and I understand at least 80% of the inpatients are people who have | :09:32. | :09:35. | |
been sectioned so you have got a very low chance of getting an | :09:36. | :09:41. | |
elective bed from Southern health unless you're prepared to wait a | :09:42. | :09:44. | |
long time. And the CQC look into this wider issue given they have so | :09:45. | :09:49. | |
many other serious concerns about the trust? | :09:50. | :09:55. | |
The CQC's powers and extensive and you will know exactly what my | :09:56. | :10:01. | |
honourable friend says. The issue in the debate between the provision of | :10:02. | :10:05. | |
beds for treatment compared to community treatment has been going | :10:06. | :10:12. | |
on for some time and mental health and the different pathways taken by | :10:13. | :10:16. | |
different trusts where you find some more people are being put into beds | :10:17. | :10:19. | |
and others are doing more in the community. Availability must not | :10:20. | :10:26. | |
preclude emergency beds when they are needed. I will make sure the CQC | :10:27. | :10:36. | |
is a weird of these concerns. -- aware. Is southern Health indicative | :10:37. | :10:47. | |
of the pressure being placed on the NHS? Significant pressure on beds, | :10:48. | :10:52. | |
higher thresholds for care and shortages have guaranteed that | :10:53. | :10:56. | |
mental health and learning disability trusts are able to do | :10:57. | :11:03. | |
their jobs? I would point to the fact that isn't used resource for | :11:04. | :11:07. | |
mental health. We have an unassailable 7p, the extra ?1 | :11:08. | :11:16. | |
billion will be spent and it is right across the board. It makes | :11:17. | :11:22. | |
sure that baselines are improved to make sure that Government's | :11:23. | :11:29. | |
foundation trusts are good enough and we are watching what the CQC is | :11:30. | :11:34. | |
spending but we're determined to improve it the money is there. | :11:35. | :11:40. | |
All too often it is our constituents with mental health problems and | :11:41. | :11:45. | |
learning difficulties who find it harder to get their voice heard. | :11:46. | :11:49. | |
Those who are patients at southern Health are not in a position to | :11:50. | :11:53. | |
cough urgent change. The Minister has said the delivery plan is being | :11:54. | :11:57. | |
evaluated but can you reassure us that that is being done with the | :11:58. | :12:00. | |
utmost speed so we see improvements on the ground and not just more | :12:01. | :12:07. | |
gathering dust? I have met today put the departmental officials, spoken | :12:08. | :12:11. | |
to NHS improvement, the regional director responsible and also as I | :12:12. | :12:16. | |
indicated before the deputy chief inspector of the CQC who was | :12:17. | :12:20. | |
responsible for the report. I can ensure my honourable friend that | :12:21. | :12:25. | |
insofar as it is up to me or the department, that sense of urgency | :12:26. | :12:27. | |
for change will be adequately delivered and determined because as | :12:28. | :12:32. | |
she rightly says, patients and families have waited in some cases | :12:33. | :12:37. | |
much too long for this. We got to show that delivery follows. The | :12:38. | :12:46. | |
failure of care for people with mental health and disabilities and | :12:47. | :12:53. | |
autism has been shocking. Equally shocking is corner sparrowhawk -- | :12:54. | :13:07. | |
Connor Sparrowhawk's death. What can be done to make sure these are acted | :13:08. | :13:13. | |
on to prevent such failures again? Over the past 12 months I've made a | :13:14. | :13:18. | |
number of families who have been victims in these circumstances, some | :13:19. | :13:22. | |
with their children who have been badly placed and inappropriately | :13:23. | :13:30. | |
placed, some who have suffered death as a result. The determination of | :13:31. | :13:35. | |
myself and colleagues is to do whatever we can to break down the | :13:36. | :13:38. | |
situations where people feel they have to fight for everything and | :13:39. | :13:46. | |
define closed doors -- they find. All too often in mental health, it | :13:47. | :13:52. | |
appears to be that when people are challenge, there is a defensiveness | :13:53. | :13:55. | |
about response. The whole transforming care process from the | :13:56. | :14:03. | |
determination of NHS, the board that monitors and overseas those with | :14:04. | :14:07. | |
mental health issues, is trying to make sure that these concerns that | :14:08. | :14:10. | |
have been expressed in the past would go completely but I am quite | :14:11. | :14:15. | |
sure the system is better place now to deal with them and listen to be | :14:16. | :14:20. | |
the more seriously -- listen to them. Does the Minister agree that | :14:21. | :14:27. | |
the recognition of the chairman is a measure of the series is of this | :14:28. | :14:32. | |
issue and after two damning reports, serious changes in the leadership | :14:33. | :14:35. | |
are needed and what the issues and he provide to my constituents such | :14:36. | :14:40. | |
as the family of David West that the regulatory bodies have the power | :14:41. | :14:43. | |
necessary if intervention is required? I indicated that since | :14:44. | :14:57. | |
last year there has been nine changes to the board and of course | :14:58. | :15:03. | |
the chair of the board left last weekend. NHS Improvement has the | :15:04. | :15:08. | |
power to alter governance and I know from speaking to them they take | :15:09. | :15:12. | |
their power and responsibility extremely seriously. The balance is | :15:13. | :15:17. | |
between ensuring balance and continuity to making sure that | :15:18. | :15:20. | |
promise is delivered rather than a wholesale change which would send | :15:21. | :15:22. | |
the provide an opportunity for further delay and prevent the work | :15:23. | :15:28. | |
going on. I know NHS Improvement is very aware of their responsibility | :15:29. | :15:35. | |
to the Government as is the trust itself. It is absolutely right this | :15:36. | :15:43. | |
has legislated for power of esteem for mental health care. I also | :15:44. | :15:54. | |
commend the quick resolution of the failings for the particular trust | :15:55. | :15:57. | |
but will he consider an independent inquiry similar to the very first | :15:58. | :16:01. | |
independent inquiry into the investigation of mid-Staffs that my | :16:02. | :16:12. | |
honourable friend initiated in 2010? I can do nothing more than repeat | :16:13. | :16:16. | |
what I said earlier. I am aware that there might be circumstances in | :16:17. | :16:22. | |
which an inquiry could bring out more, demonstrate a degree of | :16:23. | :16:27. | |
concern that colleagues in the House might find most appropriate and of | :16:28. | :16:31. | |
course the families and others would understand. My first duty is to make | :16:32. | :16:35. | |
sure that of a one is indeed safe in the trust and that work that needs | :16:36. | :16:42. | |
to be done to deliver what the CQC has found is actually being done, | :16:43. | :16:46. | |
but I'm very conscious of whether or not, even after this thorough work | :16:47. | :16:51. | |
by CQC, which is transparent, if there is anything further that is | :16:52. | :16:54. | |
needed, I will give it very genuine and serious consideration. The | :16:55. | :17:04. | |
minister is quite right when he calls the Port disturbing. It has | :17:05. | :17:08. | |
caused alarm and uncertainty across my constituency and it is with | :17:09. | :17:13. | |
uncertainty I hope he can help. I keep to know if he has a hard date | :17:14. | :17:18. | |
by which the trust is to be reviewed again and if it were to feel that | :17:19. | :17:21. | |
hurdle, what with the next action be? Simply evocation of the licence | :17:22. | :17:27. | |
are further improvement? Most of my constituents want to see a deadline | :17:28. | :17:30. | |
by which compliance must be made and after that that there is significant | :17:31. | :17:36. | |
change that might mean a new year at southern Health. -- new era. In as | :17:37. | :17:46. | |
best as I can convey it, it is a sort of constant monitoring that is | :17:47. | :17:51. | |
being done. Firstly, the improvement director appointed by NHS | :17:52. | :17:56. | |
Improvement is there, keeping up effectively, he will have the | :17:57. | :18:02. | |
constant presence in due course but the monitoring needs to be done on a | :18:03. | :18:06. | |
regular basis. Also the CQC has made it very clear that should there be | :18:07. | :18:14. | |
any need for further and -- unannounced inspections, they will | :18:15. | :18:18. | |
do them. They are under constant noticed there can be an inspection | :18:19. | :18:22. | |
at any time but further powers of the CQC include issuing a further | :18:23. | :18:29. | |
warning notice, removing conditions of registration, penalty notice for | :18:30. | :18:33. | |
prescribed offences, suspending registration, cancelling | :18:34. | :18:38. | |
registration and prosecution. I understand none of these measures | :18:39. | :18:46. | |
have been ruled out. It is that point I wish to stand upon and it is | :18:47. | :18:50. | |
the candour of duty which will give us more strength and none of it has | :18:51. | :18:55. | |
been applied yet. It is a statutory duty place and people carrying a | :18:56. | :19:00. | |
regulatory activities. It can lead to prosecution by the CQC and can | :19:01. | :19:05. | |
lead to prosecution without warning notice by the CQC. Can the Minister | :19:06. | :19:10. | |
assure me he will watch very carefully how the CQC uses those | :19:11. | :19:14. | |
powers and that they are used appropriately because if they are | :19:15. | :19:19. | |
not, we are once again failing these honourable people -- vulnerable. | :19:20. | :19:26. | |
Absolutely. If we have a system where quite rightly there is a | :19:27. | :19:31. | |
degree of autonomy and responsibility of ministers is to | :19:32. | :19:34. | |
make sure the process in the system works well, where the Minister can't | :19:35. | :19:38. | |
make all the decisions personally, we do have to make absolutely sure | :19:39. | :19:44. | |
that even if decisions deemed to be taken, they are taking and if not | :19:45. | :19:49. | |
there is an explanation why. CQC powers have been strengthened. I | :19:50. | :19:53. | |
know that a few months ago, there was the first case where a chair | :19:54. | :19:57. | |
home owner was jailed because of the care of people who has been in their | :19:58. | :20:03. | |
home and whilst recognising that the work done in cheering for vulnerable | :20:04. | :20:08. | |
people is complex and difficult and prosecution won't be the right | :20:09. | :20:11. | |
answer in every single case. Knowing the powers are there is very | :20:12. | :20:16. | |
important and the honourable Lady's anger is appropriate and I know that | :20:17. | :20:19. | |
the CQC take these powers very seriously. Could I the Minister | :20:20. | :20:30. | |
where the NHS improvement director now has the power to go into any | :20:31. | :20:39. | |
Southern Health NHS foundation trust facility and assess and neutralise | :20:40. | :20:45. | |
possible threats that we have learned about in the past where | :20:46. | :20:51. | |
people have died? Forgive me, I don't know. I would see things from | :20:52. | :20:55. | |
the dispatch box I don't know. I don't the precise powers of the | :20:56. | :21:00. | |
improvement director. I know the CQC includes the powers might honourable | :21:01. | :21:04. | |
friend is putting forward but the purpose of appointing the | :21:05. | :21:07. | |
improvement director and the new chair, which has been done by NHS | :21:08. | :21:12. | |
Improvement, Tim Smart the former Chief Executive of College Hospital | :21:13. | :21:16. | |
trust, is to put in place people who know what they're doing, know what | :21:17. | :21:20. | |
you're looking for can authorise others to make sure there is nothing | :21:21. | :21:23. | |
being covered up and everything is transparent. What assurances can the | :21:24. | :21:30. | |
Minister give us to the current levels of care and safety to the | :21:31. | :21:36. | |
families of those patients with learning difficulties who are in the | :21:37. | :21:38. | |
care of southern health at this time? I think the best thing to do | :21:39. | :21:50. | |
is refer to the CQC report we can highlight the good practice and good | :21:51. | :21:53. | |
work it does through the staff in a variety of places of community | :21:54. | :22:01. | |
pathways. That work is highlighted and demonstrates good practice. This | :22:02. | :22:04. | |
is a large trust covering many areas and it would be quite wrong to | :22:05. | :22:08. | |
assume that the standard of care is uniform rate across-the-board in | :22:09. | :22:11. | |
terms of the criticisms that have been there. The criticisms are real | :22:12. | :22:19. | |
and strong. The criticism of members is reported by the CQC to be good | :22:20. | :22:24. | |
and I reassured that in terms of safety, CQC has powers and has | :22:25. | :22:27. | |
assured me that if they needed to use those powers and elation to | :22:28. | :22:32. | |
safety and risk to patients, they would use them. Can I thank the | :22:33. | :22:36. | |
Minister and other colleagues who have taken part in these exchanges | :22:37. | :22:43. | |
that they have been a very important treatment of an important subject. | :22:44. | :22:46. | |
Perhaps on behalf of the House, I can express the hope that the | :22:47. | :22:51. | |
Hansard text of these exchanges will be supplied to Southern Health NHS | :22:52. | :23:01. | |
foundation trust. They need to know that we have treated of them and | :23:02. | :23:06. | |
what has been said, politely and with notable restraint, but with | :23:07. | :23:10. | |
very real anxiety in all parts of the House about the situation within | :23:11. | :23:25. | |
its aegis. Last week there were a number of understandable occasions | :23:26. | :23:29. | |
when people in the chamber, Members of Parliament, broke into applause. | :23:30. | :23:35. | |
It can be quite awkward for some of us on this side of the House under | :23:36. | :23:40. | |
the opposition who know about the conventions of the House because we | :23:41. | :23:45. | |
feel unable to join in the applause. I wonder if you could give guidance | :23:46. | :23:50. | |
about what is the current practice and perhaps if you uphold the | :23:51. | :23:56. | |
tradition that we don't have applause. I don't wish to pre-empt | :23:57. | :24:01. | |
your view on this that you could let it be known more generally to | :24:02. | :24:04. | |
members of the House of Commons whether we should break into | :24:05. | :24:06. | |
applause or not on occasion. I thank the honourable gentleman for | :24:07. | :24:14. | |
his point of order and is great courtesy and raising it in the way | :24:15. | :24:18. | |
they needed. The short answer is, it is the longest at the convention of | :24:19. | :24:21. | |
this house that we do applaud. For what it is worth, -- we do not | :24:22. | :24:29. | |
applaud. For the best of my recollection, I have never myself | :24:30. | :24:31. | |
done so. If the honourable gentleman is asking me if I would prefer it to | :24:32. | :24:36. | |
remain that way, the short answer is, I would. I think that the | :24:37. | :24:39. | |
convention that we do not applaud to register approval, but do it in | :24:40. | :24:44. | |
other ways, is a valuable convention. All I would say to the | :24:45. | :24:47. | |
honourable gentleman who has raised his point in an extremely polite way | :24:48. | :24:54. | |
is, so far as the chair is concerned, each situation has to be | :24:55. | :24:58. | |
judged on its merits, and I am very conscious that I am the servant of | :24:59. | :25:05. | |
the house. If, spontaneously, a large group of members burst into | :25:06. | :25:09. | |
applause, sometimes, the most prudent approach is to let it take | :25:10. | :25:15. | |
its course. But I would much prefer it if it did not happen, unless the | :25:16. | :25:22. | |
house consciously we'll is a change. I am not aware that the house as a | :25:23. | :25:25. | |
whole has consciously willed a change. In that respect, I sense | :25:26. | :25:30. | |
that the honourable gentleman and I, not for the first time, and | :25:31. | :25:34. | |
hopefully not for the last, are on the same side. | :25:35. | :25:40. | |
Doctor Julian Lewis. In fairness to those members who are | :25:41. | :25:44. | |
usually newer members, who occasionally do this, I think it | :25:45. | :25:51. | |
worth pointing out, is it not, that this usually tends to happen on a | :25:52. | :25:59. | |
particular, spontaneous, unusual occasion, and not routinely, and | :26:00. | :26:03. | |
that if it did happen routinely, we would end up with organised chairing | :26:04. | :26:06. | |
of the sort that we sometimes get on the more down-market versions of | :26:07. | :26:11. | |
talent shows on TV. That would not be the direction in which we would | :26:12. | :26:15. | |
want to go. That would be thoroughly | :26:16. | :26:20. | |
undesirable! The more unusual, or even occasional, the better. And for | :26:21. | :26:26. | |
it to become the norm would, I think, be deprecated by the | :26:27. | :26:31. | |
honourable member for Lichfield, the honourable member for New Forest | :26:32. | :26:37. | |
East, and deprecated by the chair. The honourable member for Lichfield | :26:38. | :26:41. | |
asked me to find a way of communicating more widely my view on | :26:42. | :26:44. | |
this matter, and I hope I have just taken this opportunity. There is no | :26:45. | :26:49. | |
slight directed at any individual, nor any adverse comment on any | :26:50. | :26:53. | |
particular occasion. What usually, our traditions are for a reason, and | :26:54. | :27:00. | |
to find that we lied or morphed into new situation -- elide or morphed | :27:01. | :27:10. | |
into a new situation, as a result of inactivity or happenstance, is | :27:11. | :27:12. | |
undesirable. If the house wants to change things, let it do so, but as | :27:13. | :27:17. | |
far as I'm concerned, it has not yet done so. I hope that is helpful. | :27:18. | :27:22. | |
Point of order, Kate Green. You may be aware of a report | :27:23. | :27:27. | |
published over the weekend by Citizens Advice, indicating a 25% | :27:28. | :27:29. | |
increase in the number of people coming forward with problems | :27:30. | :27:36. | |
relating to pregnancy and maternity discrimination, and this follows hot | :27:37. | :27:42. | |
on the heels of a report shortly before the Easter recess from the | :27:43. | :27:45. | |
Equality And Human Rights Commission, indicating that three | :27:46. | :27:51. | |
quarters of women have had negative experiences at work associated with | :27:52. | :27:54. | |
pregnancy or maternity. I am pleased to see the honourable member who | :27:55. | :27:59. | |
chairs the select committee is in the chamber, because her committee | :28:00. | :28:02. | |
are conducting an important piece of research into this, but there has | :28:03. | :28:05. | |
been no comment at all from government ministers, and so far, no | :28:06. | :28:09. | |
indication that one will be made -- time will be made in this chamber to | :28:10. | :28:12. | |
debate this. Can you tell me ministers have approached this | :28:13. | :28:17. | |
indicating their intention to make a statement, either on the EH RC | :28:18. | :28:21. | |
reports, or the other report, from which the Department for Business, | :28:22. | :28:26. | |
Innovation and Skills was associated? | :28:27. | :28:28. | |
As far as I am concerned, my answer is no. I have not been approached, | :28:29. | :28:32. | |
and certainly not directly. I am not conscious of any argument of Mrs | :28:33. | :28:39. | |
circulating in my office. -- missive. It does occur to me that | :28:40. | :28:43. | |
work and pensions questions take place on Monday of next week, and | :28:44. | :28:50. | |
that is by no means the only or even necessarily the best opportunity to | :28:51. | :28:55. | |
raise the matter, but it is one such opportunity, and if that does not | :28:56. | :29:01. | |
suit the honourable member, or other opportunities are sought, they may | :29:02. | :29:08. | |
materialise. I would only say that as far as the house as an employer | :29:09. | :29:13. | |
is concerned, I am not aware that there is a problem, and I would be | :29:14. | :29:17. | |
very concerned if there were. I would take steps to keep myself | :29:18. | :29:24. | |
informed. We must keep ourselves informed that best practice as well | :29:25. | :29:28. | |
as the law are followed. I thank the honourable lady for her patience. | :29:29. | :29:32. | |
Point of order, Caroline Lucas. And he very much. You may have seen | :29:33. | :29:38. | |
recent reports that police unit tasked with monitoring extremists | :29:39. | :29:46. | |
has been wasting its time monitoring members of the Green party, | :29:47. | :29:49. | |
including myself. I wonder if you could give advice on the best way | :29:50. | :29:52. | |
for me to raise this, so that we could get a statement from the Home | :29:53. | :29:56. | |
Secretary here in the house on the methods of surveillance, the powers | :29:57. | :30:02. | |
supposedly used in order to justify that surveillance, and most | :30:03. | :30:06. | |
importantly, why citizens lawfully engaging in legitimate political | :30:07. | :30:09. | |
activity have been targeted eye the police in this way. | :30:10. | :30:15. | |
Well, this is a rather disturbing matter. Let me say to the honourable | :30:16. | :30:19. | |
lady that I don't know whether she is suggesting that there is any | :30:20. | :30:26. | |
interference with her work as a member of Parliament. If that were | :30:27. | :30:33. | |
so, that would be an exceptionally serious matter, but it would be | :30:34. | :30:38. | |
effectively a matter of privilege, about which, in conformity with | :30:39. | :30:42. | |
convention, she should write to me, and it will then be taken forward as | :30:43. | :30:46. | |
appropriate, and beyond that, I can really just say that the matter in | :30:47. | :30:57. | |
question is not one for me. It does sound a very bizarre situation. I | :30:58. | :31:00. | |
find it very curious to think that the honourable lady is being, or | :31:01. | :31:06. | |
might be, subject to some sort of surveillance in relation to their | :31:07. | :31:09. | |
activities as a member of Parliament. I am not aware of that, | :31:10. | :31:13. | |
but the matter isn't one for the chair, and I think that I have to | :31:14. | :31:18. | |
advise her that she must find other means by which to air her concerns. | :31:19. | :31:25. | |
If she won't take it amiss, I will simply say that knowing both her | :31:26. | :31:32. | |
intelligence and her indefatigability, there is no way | :31:33. | :31:35. | |
that finding other means to bear her concern will be beyond her very | :31:36. | :31:39. | |
considerable capabilities. Perhaps we can leave it there for today, but | :31:40. | :31:43. | |
if she needs to come back about the matter, and it is potentially a very | :31:44. | :31:48. | |
serious matter, she should do so. If there are no further points of | :31:49. | :31:52. | |
order, we come now to the ten minute rule motion, a further opportunity | :31:53. | :31:56. | |
for the display of intelligence and indefatigability, Caroline Lucas. | :31:57. | :31:59. | |
Thank you very much. I beg to move that leave be given to bring in a | :32:00. | :32:04. | |
bill to require the Secretary of State to establish an independent | :32:05. | :32:07. | |
commission and enquiry to examine ways of improving parliamentary and | :32:08. | :32:11. | |
other public scrutiny of ministerial mandates, and outcomes, in relation | :32:12. | :32:15. | |
to EU institutions, policies and legislation, and for connected | :32:16. | :32:21. | |
purposes. In 50 days, this country will go to the polls to take the | :32:22. | :32:26. | |
most important single precision of a generation, whether to remain in the | :32:27. | :32:31. | |
EU or whether to leave. I am strongly in favour of staying in. I | :32:32. | :32:36. | |
will continue to make the case that we are stronger in, greener in, and | :32:37. | :32:40. | |
fairer in. And today's globalised world, we can achieve so much more | :32:41. | :32:45. | |
by working together with our closest neighbours than by going it alone. | :32:46. | :32:50. | |
But I make this speech today, Mr Diabetes be, not available on | :32:51. | :32:53. | |
everything about the EU. Indeed, I understand when some constituents | :32:54. | :33:00. | |
ask, why stay part of an institution which has faults? Or, why spend time | :33:01. | :33:04. | |
on reforming the EU when we could leave it instead? There are many | :33:05. | :33:08. | |
concerns about the UN how it operates, which are valid, as | :33:09. | :33:13. | |
indeed, there are valid concerns about how Westminster operates. But | :33:14. | :33:17. | |
they are not a reason to walk away. Moreover, such concerns are often | :33:18. | :33:21. | |
exploited by populist political opportunists, with toxic, xenophobic | :33:22. | :33:25. | |
messages. Outright fear mongering about foreigners is again rearing | :33:26. | :33:29. | |
its ugly head across the continent. What worries me most about the rise | :33:30. | :33:34. | |
of this divisive politics is that it raises from history the series of | :33:35. | :33:38. | |
events that led to the formation of the EU. -- a races. It is also | :33:39. | :33:41. | |
remarkably complacent about the future. The EU is not an abstract | :33:42. | :33:49. | |
Project born of some kind of idle philosophising in continental think | :33:50. | :33:52. | |
tanks. The imperative to share sovereignty in Europe and ensure | :33:53. | :33:55. | |
that economic competition does not yet again spill over into conflict, | :33:56. | :34:00. | |
was built on the blood and bones of Europeans killed in the terrible | :34:01. | :34:05. | |
first half of the 20th century. The EU is a pragmatic response to our | :34:06. | :34:10. | |
failure to manage the forces of nationalism and industrialisation, | :34:11. | :34:13. | |
and I would argue that it has done much to reduce the aggressive | :34:14. | :34:17. | |
ambitions of European elites who have disputed control of the | :34:18. | :34:21. | |
continent for centuries. And so, for me, one of the foremost reasons for | :34:22. | :34:24. | |
staying in the EU is because it makes peace more likely. But we | :34:25. | :34:30. | |
cannot wish away the EU's problems, nor simply urge people to urge it | :34:31. | :34:34. | |
because -- urge people to love it because of its history of | :34:35. | :34:37. | |
peacemaking. We must be bold in making sure how the EU works, and | :34:38. | :34:42. | |
ensure our constituents have more of a say over what happens at EU level. | :34:43. | :34:46. | |
Data suggests British people are among the least knowledgeable about | :34:47. | :34:49. | |
the EU, and that is not their fault, but it does highlight the urgent | :34:50. | :34:52. | |
need to ensure the public are able to be more engaged with EU level | :34:53. | :34:55. | |
policy and legislation. The fundamental point is that there are | :34:56. | :35:00. | |
dozens of things that can be done unilaterally here in the UK to | :35:01. | :35:04. | |
radically improve accountability and engagement about EU decision-making, | :35:05. | :35:09. | |
and that is what my bill is about. After working for ten years as an | :35:10. | :35:14. | |
NEP in the European Parliament, I am in no doubt that the EU needs | :35:15. | :35:18. | |
far-reaching reform. One major set of reforms could happen tomorrow, | :35:19. | :35:21. | |
because they are entirely within the gift of the UK Government's | :35:22. | :35:26. | |
implement. No agreement or even discussion is required without the U | :35:27. | :35:28. | |
countries to make them happen. These reforms are the subject of the bill | :35:29. | :35:34. | |
I am presenting today. They build on proposals from the electoral reform | :35:35. | :35:38. | |
Society, the Hansard Society, the House of Lords EU committee, and the | :35:39. | :35:42. | |
Commons European scrutiny committee, who have already done much important | :35:43. | :35:46. | |
work in this area. But one of these proposals is that the UK Parliament | :35:47. | :35:49. | |
as a whole should engage with the government's negotiating position | :35:50. | :35:53. | |
before European council meetings as well as after, a practice that is | :35:54. | :35:57. | |
routine in many other member states. We need a more effective model of | :35:58. | :36:00. | |
scrutiny to allow Parliament still hold the government fully to account | :36:01. | :36:05. | |
regarding its dealings with other European states. The Hansard Society | :36:06. | :36:09. | |
has pointed to the fact that our system, largely one of document | :36:10. | :36:14. | |
-based scrutiny, takes place only once in a civil society. We could | :36:15. | :36:18. | |
easily improve the scrutiny of ministers that monthly departmental | :36:19. | :36:21. | |
oral questions, for example, including topical questions, by | :36:22. | :36:24. | |
setting aside specific time for coverage of European issues related | :36:25. | :36:29. | |
to their policy areas. Our select committee system should also provide | :36:30. | :36:32. | |
a high profile powerhouse the scrutiny is in EU policies. To make | :36:33. | :36:37. | |
it happen, the UK's European scrutiny committee should not just | :36:38. | :36:41. | |
be reactive, but should have the capacity to proactively choose what | :36:42. | :36:44. | |
a follow-up, like a departmental select committee. Then, we need to | :36:45. | :36:50. | |
raise the profile of this house's own three European committees, which | :36:51. | :36:52. | |
cover particular government departments. I have much sympathy | :36:53. | :36:56. | |
with the suggestion that membership of this committee should be made | :36:57. | :36:59. | |
permanent, so expertise and experience could be built up. The | :37:00. | :37:04. | |
electoral reform Society points out that the House of Lords is | :37:05. | :37:06. | |
considered to provide exemplary scrutiny of the EU, with six | :37:07. | :37:09. | |
subcommittees covering various aspects of policy, as well the | :37:10. | :37:13. | |
stand-alone EU select committee, but it is an irony that the part of the | :37:14. | :37:17. | |
British Parliament that provides the greatest scrutiny of the EU is the | :37:18. | :37:21. | |
part that is itself both unelected and unaccountable, and it is time | :37:22. | :37:24. | |
for that to change. Credit should be given to the European scrutiny | :37:25. | :37:27. | |
committee, which has for some time been reviewing the links that they | :37:28. | :37:31. | |
have with department will select committees. For example, examining | :37:32. | :37:35. | |
the role of an informal network of EU contact points on each select | :37:36. | :37:39. | |
committee team, as they do in the Scottish parliament. The European | :37:40. | :37:42. | |
scrutiny committee can require our select committees to develop and | :37:43. | :37:46. | |
provide an opinion on a particular document, but Commons select | :37:47. | :37:49. | |
committee is often don't look at the legislation, or have the capacity to | :37:50. | :37:53. | |
do so, which means coverage of EU matters can be patchy and | :37:54. | :37:57. | |
inconsistent. The commission of enquiry provided for in this bill | :37:58. | :38:00. | |
would look at the very strong case for expanding the Commons select | :38:01. | :38:08. | |
committee system, so it can proactively scrutinise EU proposals | :38:09. | :38:10. | |
and legislation, and I recognise that in order to manage the system | :38:11. | :38:13. | |
work load, that would need some kind of sub committee system, and would | :38:14. | :38:15. | |
need to be properly resourced. But I believe it could make a real | :38:16. | :38:18. | |
difference to the levels of scrutiny and accountability. We also need | :38:19. | :38:22. | |
better mechanisms to give devolved parliaments and assembly is the | :38:23. | :38:25. | |
ability to hold UK ministers to account at EU negotiations, and | :38:26. | :38:30. | |
ministers should have the right to participate in European council | :38:31. | :38:32. | |
meetings. Those are just some examples of changes that the UK can | :38:33. | :38:37. | |
unilaterally make to improve accountability and scrutiny of EU | :38:38. | :38:41. | |
decision-making. Indeed, a House of Lords EU committee report in 2015 | :38:42. | :38:45. | |
identified no fewer than 35 such measures. Under this bill, we should | :38:46. | :38:49. | |
also consider reforms that UK ministers should be championing at | :38:50. | :38:54. | |
EU level. That same House of Lords committee repeated their previous | :38:55. | :38:58. | |
call three formally recognised green card system. At present, this is | :38:59. | :39:02. | |
just an informal mechanism intended to enable the parliaments of EU | :39:03. | :39:05. | |
member states to join forces to make proposals to the European | :39:06. | :39:09. | |
Commission, to initiate new policy and legislation. That first green | :39:10. | :39:13. | |
card, and food waste, was prepared by the House of Lords and submitted | :39:14. | :39:17. | |
to the commission last year. This is an important means for strengthening | :39:18. | :39:23. | |
and making possible the joint action of national parliaments, to make | :39:24. | :39:25. | |
proactive proposals not just react to them, and I think it is an | :39:26. | :39:29. | |
important way of revitalising our democratic participation in Europe. | :39:30. | :39:35. | |
That also means of strengthening the work of Parliament officers in | :39:36. | :39:41. | |
Brussels so that we can enhance parliamentary cooperation across a | :39:42. | :39:43. | |
whole range of issues across the member states. The European | :39:44. | :39:45. | |
Commission is one of the less democratic parts of the EU. We | :39:46. | :39:49. | |
urgently need better ways to hold the commissioners to account. The 28 | :39:50. | :39:53. | |
European commissioners appointed by governors at almost like a cabinet, | :39:54. | :39:57. | |
with each responsible for a certain brief. The commission is currently | :39:58. | :40:03. | |
too powerful, it proposes EU administration, managers budget and | :40:04. | :40:06. | |
enforces decisions and yet the Tamils of representation are by that | :40:07. | :40:10. | |
time and there is a serious lack of transparency about the way we select | :40:11. | :40:15. | |
commissioners. There is a significant gap between the | :40:16. | :40:18. | |
commission and the people, one that obscures channels Southwark and | :40:19. | :40:21. | |
ability. But there are things we can do about this and the commission set | :40:22. | :40:23. | |
out in my bill should have within its remit and assessment of what | :40:24. | :40:27. | |
mechanisms we could use here in the UK to better hold our EU | :40:28. | :40:31. | |
Commissioner to a account and to allow for transparency of the role. | :40:32. | :40:37. | |
We can remedy the situation where most fours and neither know nor care | :40:38. | :40:41. | |
who do EU commissioners are what they stand for. We need new | :40:42. | :40:48. | |
mechanisms to ensure that can undertake a more proactive role. It | :40:49. | :40:52. | |
is unacceptably and unnecessarily difficult to follow what ministers | :40:53. | :40:56. | |
are doing on our behalf in the EU, let alone for parliamentarians and | :40:57. | :40:59. | |
the public to have meaningful input to shape it. That is a big part of | :41:00. | :41:07. | |
the perceived democratic deficit associated with EU level | :41:08. | :41:09. | |
decision-making. There is so much that we could and should do, | :41:10. | :41:11. | |
unilaterally, you're in the UK to make that better, as well as at the | :41:12. | :41:15. | |
EU level. Of course, there are much bigger reforms needed as well, for | :41:16. | :41:17. | |
example in terms of the relative powers between the European | :41:18. | :41:21. | |
Parliament and the commission. But the purpose of this bill is to | :41:22. | :41:24. | |
identify the measures we can take here and now in the UK if there is | :41:25. | :41:27. | |
significant political will. We already have the powers to make it | :41:28. | :41:30. | |
more democratic and accountable if we choose to take them and there are | :41:31. | :41:33. | |
clear steps we should and could be taking in this House. I hope that on | :41:34. | :41:37. | |
the 24th of June the UK will not only board to remain part of the EU | :41:38. | :41:42. | |
but it grasps the opportunity to reform our continued participation | :41:43. | :41:45. | |
and that we in this House can create a cop positive gateway to a new and | :41:46. | :41:51. | |
revised to strand of political transparency, participation and | :41:52. | :41:55. | |
accountability. The reforms I have outlined today will not in | :41:56. | :41:57. | |
themselves and save the EU from a crisis of accountability but they | :41:58. | :42:01. | |
will make a big difference and will certainly help. Thank you. The | :42:02. | :42:07. | |
question is that the honourable member have leave to bring in the | :42:08. | :42:13. | |
bill. Mr Deputy Speaker, say we were to enter into some kind of green | :42:14. | :42:20. | |
Dreamland, and here we are, one week from Parliament being paroled for | :42:21. | :42:25. | |
the Queen's speech, say that we were all, both opposition and government, | :42:26. | :42:30. | |
to accept this bill, we all know, Mr Deputy Speaker, that is not going to | :42:31. | :42:34. | |
happen. But say it did happen. Say this bill became law, you know what | :42:35. | :42:40. | |
I think? I think the effect on the European Union would. Absolute zero. | :42:41. | :42:53. | |
You can have as much or as many Select committees in this Parliament | :42:54. | :42:56. | |
as you like. -- the effect on the European Union would be nul points. | :42:57. | :43:05. | |
The honourable member for has spent a lifetime scrutinising the European | :43:06. | :43:08. | |
Union. We already summon the Prime Minister to our chamber after | :43:09. | :43:10. | |
European Council meetings and he spends two hours here answering our | :43:11. | :43:15. | |
questions. How much difference does that make? We got somebody in | :43:16. | :43:19. | |
before. We could do all the things that the honourable lady once and | :43:20. | :43:23. | |
nothing will change. Because what is the structure of the European Union? | :43:24. | :43:26. | |
The European Union is indeed a unique construct in terms of | :43:27. | :43:32. | |
democracy and world history. We have a Parliament representing the people | :43:33. | :43:38. | |
of the European Union which has no ability to initiate legislation. | :43:39. | :43:44. | |
Legislation can only be initiated by an unaccountable bureaucracy, the | :43:45. | :43:48. | |
commission, in what Parliament or in what nation, Mr Deputy Speaker, is | :43:49. | :43:53. | |
that propagated? And what of the Council of ministers? I have served | :43:54. | :43:57. | |
with my honourable friend, who sits in front of me, on the Council of | :43:58. | :44:03. | |
ministers. Where are we, or I do know, concerned over Italy about | :44:04. | :44:08. | |
what is being discussed? By deputies in these various parliaments? No, | :44:09. | :44:11. | |
this is all done through the night at deal-making. I give way. Is this | :44:12. | :44:17. | |
bill not putting a colourful pretty ribbon on the tail of the very | :44:18. | :44:22. | |
hungry died at the EU that will go on eating up our powers, taking our | :44:23. | :44:26. | |
and forcing them up on green products? Absolutely. -- taking our | :44:27. | :44:34. | |
taxes. There is one way in which we can generally reform the EU. The | :44:35. | :44:37. | |
Prime Minister tells us that we should remain in a reformed EU. Is | :44:38. | :44:43. | |
there a single honourable member on either side of this argument, either | :44:44. | :44:48. | |
side of the House, who believes that the Prime Minister has reformed the | :44:49. | :44:51. | |
EU despite his best efforts? Nobody believes that. Everybody knows that | :44:52. | :44:55. | |
negotiation was to all intents and purposes a sham in order to enable | :44:56. | :45:01. | |
the Prime Minister to come back to the British people under to try and | :45:02. | :45:05. | |
convince them that is on reformed, unreformable body has indeed been | :45:06. | :45:09. | |
reformed, where we all know, or everybody in Europe knows, that it | :45:10. | :45:12. | |
is on reformed and unreformable because of the very structure that I | :45:13. | :45:16. | |
have talked about. -- it is not reformed. And of course, the | :45:17. | :45:21. | |
fundamental problem is that although you can have as many Select | :45:22. | :45:24. | |
Committee is as you like and summon ministers as often as possible, this | :45:25. | :45:27. | |
Parliament is not supreme. This was the fundamental dilemma that our | :45:28. | :45:32. | |
predecessors, the Labour government, in 1948, and the Conservative | :45:33. | :45:38. | |
government in 1957, were faced with. They were very happy to try and | :45:39. | :45:45. | |
create European free trade, more free trade in iron and steel in | :45:46. | :45:51. | |
1948, more free trade in 1957. But it was made clear to them by various | :45:52. | :45:57. | |
people that this was a project which led, and would lead, inevitably to | :45:58. | :46:03. | |
federation. And this is what this project is about. It is, in the | :46:04. | :46:08. | |
terms of that book, this pleasant plot. The people of Europe are not | :46:09. | :46:13. | |
being consulted and the whole way the European construct is divided is | :46:14. | :46:18. | |
to ensure that these deals and these progress towards European federation | :46:19. | :46:23. | |
is made in secret. When I was chairman of the Public Accounts | :46:24. | :46:25. | |
Committee we went to the European Court order do you know, Mr Deputy | :46:26. | :46:29. | |
Speaker, that the can't have ever been signed off? This is a body | :46:30. | :46:33. | |
riddled, not only with waste, incompetence, but also with | :46:34. | :46:38. | |
corruption. So this bill will achieve nothing, even if it became | :46:39. | :46:42. | |
all. But there is one way, Mr Deputy Speaker, in which we can achieve | :46:43. | :46:46. | |
something. What would happen... I just post this as a question. What | :46:47. | :46:51. | |
would happen if one of the most important countries in the European | :46:52. | :46:56. | |
Union was to vote to leave the European Union? What a good idea. | :46:57. | :47:02. | |
What would happen question we are not talking about some ten minute | :47:03. | :47:06. | |
rule Bill ignored by the rest of the EU, even if it becomes law. What | :47:07. | :47:10. | |
would happen then? Do you not think that would be most profound electric | :47:11. | :47:17. | |
shocks through the wall system? Do you not think then that actually are | :47:18. | :47:21. | |
leaders in Europe might just sit down for a moment, ponder about the | :47:22. | :47:27. | |
fate of their construct and say that their construct is designed to | :47:28. | :47:32. | |
achieve what the peoples of European want, which is peace and friendship? | :47:33. | :47:37. | |
Peace and friendship which has fundamentally been created by Natal. | :47:38. | :47:40. | |
And he recommend an excellent article written by my honourable | :47:41. | :47:45. | |
friend which makes less precise point. Nato of the construct which | :47:46. | :47:49. | |
we can indeed invalid because it is not a supernatural body. It is a | :47:50. | :47:54. | |
treaty -based body but does not impose its laws and supremacy of the | :47:55. | :47:57. | |
peoples of Europe. And indeed, what the peoples of Europe want, and what | :47:58. | :48:01. | |
are all people want, is free trade. That is what we really want. And I | :48:02. | :48:07. | |
believe that if we were to take this historic opportunity, if we were to | :48:08. | :48:13. | |
take this historic opportunity in June, I do not think for one moment | :48:14. | :48:16. | |
the world would falling, because the world is moving towards European | :48:17. | :48:20. | |
free trade. The very worst thing that could happen is that we would | :48:21. | :48:24. | |
have most favoured status and we would have to pay tariffs of 5% on | :48:25. | :48:31. | |
most of our imports, or exports, rather, to the European Union. But | :48:32. | :48:34. | |
that would not happen because there is a massive balance of trade | :48:35. | :48:39. | |
surplus with regards... Against us. It is not gone to happen anyway. A | :48:40. | :48:43. | |
deal could be construct it is on free trade. But I think that much | :48:44. | :48:49. | |
more importantly than what we think what we want is what this might | :48:50. | :48:56. | |
create in the rest of Europe, in Europe of nation states. A Europe | :48:57. | :49:00. | |
which was the original vision of General Charles De Gaulle Airport a | :49:01. | :49:03. | |
Europe where national parliaments have genuine powers and a genuine | :49:04. | :49:11. | |
veto. That is our challenge, Mr Deputy Speaker, and there are | :49:12. | :49:14. | |
millions of people in this country who will seize that challenge and | :49:15. | :49:17. | |
fought for freedom in the referendum in June. | :49:18. | :49:21. | |
CHEERING The question is that the honourable | :49:22. | :49:24. | |
member have leave to bring in the bill. Ayes. Noes. I think we can let | :49:25. | :49:34. | |
that one go. Who will bring the bill? Pat McFadden. Mr Stephen | :49:35. | :49:43. | |
Kinnock, Greg Mulholland, Margaret Ritchie and myself. | :49:44. | :50:14. | |
Transparency and accountability European Union. Second reading what | :50:15. | :50:28. | |
day? 13th of May. 13th of May. OK, we are ready. We now come to the | :50:29. | :50:35. | |
housing and planning Bill. The question is that the housing and | :50:36. | :50:40. | |
planning Bill is on the order paper. As many are of the opinion, say | :50:41. | :50:44. | |
''aye''. To the contrary, ''no''. The ayes have it. Question on the | :50:45. | :50:51. | |
order paper. As many are of the opinion, say ''aye''. To the | :50:52. | :50:55. | |
contrary, ''no''. The ayes have it. The court will now proceed to read | :50:56. | :51:00. | |
the orders of the day. Housing and planning Bill consideration of Lords | :51:01. | :51:08. | |
amendments. I must draw the House's attention to the fact that the | :51:09. | :51:12. | |
financial privileges engaged by Lords amendments 37-58, 91, 184 and | :51:13. | :51:20. | |
185 if the House agrees them I will call the appropriate entry to be | :51:21. | :51:24. | |
made in the journal. I also remind you how is that certain of the | :51:25. | :51:29. | |
motions relating to the Lords amendments are certified as relating | :51:30. | :51:32. | |
exclusively to England or England and Wales, as set out on the | :51:33. | :51:37. | |
selection paper. If the host of Eid is on any certified motion, a | :51:38. | :51:41. | |
majority will be required for the motion to be passed. -- if he house | :51:42. | :51:49. | |
divides on any certified. It will consider the other amendments and | :51:50. | :51:52. | |
motions listed on the selection paper. I call the Minister to move | :51:53. | :51:57. | |
to disagree with those Lords amendments. Mr Brandon Willis. | :51:58. | :52:03. | |
Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I do beg to move that this House | :52:04. | :52:07. | |
disagrees with the Lords on the amendment number one, and to move | :52:08. | :52:12. | |
amendment one a endless. Mr Deputy Speaker, I am glad to be back at | :52:13. | :52:16. | |
this dispatch box returning to the Housing and planning Bill and the | :52:17. | :52:20. | |
House of Commons this afternoon. We are now in the final month of the | :52:21. | :52:24. | |
first year of this Parliament. A parliament which has seen a majority | :52:25. | :52:29. | |
Conservative Government returned to this House. A government with a | :52:30. | :52:32. | |
clear mandate to deliver the largest programme of house building we are | :52:33. | :52:38. | |
seeing for a generation. It seems immensely vetting to be at this | :52:39. | :52:43. | |
dispatch box, having come from Mr Speaker's on garden, where we have | :52:44. | :52:46. | |
got construction people showing the importance of house building across | :52:47. | :52:49. | |
the country and the importance of winning more skill than to deliver | :52:50. | :52:52. | |
the ones who are determined to build. We want to place | :52:53. | :52:55. | |
homeownership within the reach of thousands of people who have never | :52:56. | :52:59. | |
dreamt that they could achieve it. And ensure that in doing so we make | :53:00. | :53:03. | |
the best use of social housing, so that it continues to support those | :53:04. | :53:08. | |
most in need. Mr Deputy Speaker, the bill that comes before us today is a | :53:09. | :53:12. | |
slightly different beast to the one that we passed to the other place | :53:13. | :53:17. | |
earlier this year. Today, we will discuss rather more than the 56 | :53:18. | :53:22. | |
amendments we are traditionally used to seeing come from the other house. | :53:23. | :53:26. | |
-- five or six amendments. The vast majority are all ask the House to | :53:27. | :53:31. | |
accept. Debates in both houses have been reductive and have resulted in | :53:32. | :53:33. | |
a number of changes which have improved the bill. So let me be very | :53:34. | :53:39. | |
clear from the start. I heard many, mainly on the benches opposite, they | :53:40. | :53:42. | |
that we should have waited for debating this bill. That in fact | :53:43. | :53:46. | |
means that the government would have had to sit idly by, taking forms and | :53:47. | :53:50. | |
waiting to double-check that the public elected us to do and what | :53:51. | :53:53. | |
they are elected us today was actually what the public wanted. We | :53:54. | :53:58. | |
are debating this bill early in this Parliament so that it can take | :53:59. | :54:01. | |
effect as soon as possible. Getting those new homes built for those who | :54:02. | :54:03. | |
aspire to have a home. And will be available to more | :54:04. | :54:13. | |
people, including couples where one member is over 40, and our injured | :54:14. | :54:18. | |
or bereaved service personnel. There are better protections, so the risk | :54:19. | :54:21. | |
of properties being declared abandoned is reduced. Our plan to | :54:22. | :54:24. | |
replace higher value properties, expected to be sold with at least | :54:25. | :54:31. | |
one new property, is explicit on the bill! Bill. This means we could not | :54:32. | :54:36. | |
be clearer about our intention to increase the number of affordable | :54:37. | :54:39. | |
homes across our country. I will give way. Thank you. Will the | :54:40. | :54:44. | |
minister just clarify what higher value homes, one that essentially | :54:45. | :54:51. | |
means? How much? I will command to deal with that as I deal with the | :54:52. | :54:57. | |
higher value assets as well as the other values before us today. We | :54:58. | :55:03. | |
have increased protection we get a rural areas as well, recognising the | :55:04. | :55:07. | |
unique value of our and the is a killer challenge of providing | :55:08. | :55:12. | |
affordable homes there. There is, I trust, much with which we can agree | :55:13. | :55:16. | |
with the other place here today. I will give way. Does he agree that | :55:17. | :55:21. | |
the idea of more affordable homes for sale is extremely popular, and | :55:22. | :55:25. | |
I'm getting requests from people who want to get on with it, and can the | :55:26. | :55:29. | |
minister say hello to my now take the macro I am hoping it will not | :55:30. | :55:32. | |
take is to long and the other house will accept the points we have made | :55:33. | :55:35. | |
today, and maybe the opposition will come and vote with us to make sure | :55:36. | :55:38. | |
we deliver those affordable homes for people to buy. He is quite | :55:39. | :55:44. | |
right, and I will finish answering the last intervention. He is also | :55:45. | :55:50. | |
right, I myself went to Twitter, and e-mails, and get a lot of people | :55:51. | :55:54. | |
wondering whether we will be able to deliver 486% of the population who | :55:55. | :55:56. | |
want the chance to own a home of their own. It is absolutely right we | :55:57. | :56:00. | |
should be able to make sure affordable homes are about avoidable | :56:01. | :56:03. | |
ownership as well as affordable rent. I way. The conclusion that the | :56:04. | :56:12. | |
subcommittee came to, we pushed the minister had so what is impact | :56:13. | :56:16. | |
assessment and financial assessment work of the full costs and | :56:17. | :56:20. | |
implications of his policies about the sale of higher value council | :56:21. | :56:27. | |
homes, whether it would deliver a replacement there, and a replacement | :56:28. | :56:31. | |
of Housing Association property and all the analysis and brown field | :56:32. | :56:35. | |
sites. When will that analysis be produced you macro Souris activist | :56:36. | :56:38. | |
in criticism the other day, that there is no information for us to go | :56:39. | :56:42. | |
on. I did think it was rather surprising to see the PAC review a | :56:43. | :56:47. | |
policy that has not actually done through the house yet. It is making | :56:48. | :56:51. | |
sure we deliver more homeownership to more people across the country, | :56:52. | :56:54. | |
whether the 1.3 million people who want to get through the extension of | :56:55. | :56:57. | |
right to buy, or the intervention with starter homes. I will give way. | :56:58. | :57:02. | |
I thank the minister the giving way. He cited the report published last | :57:03. | :57:07. | |
Friday, but just to be clear, we do it as a committee at issues in | :57:08. | :57:14. | |
advance of them becoming issues, to make sure that taxpayers' money is | :57:15. | :57:20. | |
protected in the process. He gives Gateway about taxpayers' the sale, | :57:21. | :57:25. | |
but there is no one clarity how he will fund it, or whether they will | :57:26. | :57:28. | |
be like for like replacement of homes he is forcing borrowers like | :57:29. | :57:31. | |
mine to sell in order to pay for them. Willie promised now that he | :57:32. | :57:33. | |
will protect long-term social housing to the people in London who | :57:34. | :57:38. | |
can afford nothing else, certainly not a starter home? In terms of | :57:39. | :57:43. | |
making sure we get good use of social housing stock, we should be | :57:44. | :57:47. | |
getting boats later on today, on the high-income social tenants. | :57:48. | :57:49. | |
I'm surprised at this year that interested in housing and making | :57:50. | :57:52. | |
sure we're delivering more in this country, it is the first time she | :57:53. | :57:55. | |
has directly engaged in this bill. One thing her colleague, who | :57:56. | :57:59. | |
allegedly outlining about the Public Accounts Committee Buzz Lightyear | :58:00. | :58:01. | |
report, was around the date behind it, and as I outlined at the end of | :58:02. | :58:05. | |
last week, there are 6 million pieces of data packed into this | :58:06. | :58:07. | |
report. I will give way and come back to the honourable lady. | :58:08. | :58:14. | |
The the honourable gentleman has made a lot of affordable. | :58:15. | :58:20. | |
Can he define affordable, and is it right that an affordable starter | :58:21. | :58:23. | |
home in London would be round 450,000? | :58:24. | :58:28. | |
I think the honourable gentleman might want to go back and have a | :58:29. | :58:31. | |
look not just at the evidence that was given to the committee itself, | :58:32. | :58:35. | |
the look through this bill, or indeed, the bill itself. Before and | :58:36. | :58:39. | |
50,000 is a cap, and he should be clearer looking at the average price | :58:40. | :58:43. | |
eight first-time buyer pays in this country, which is a chilly ?181,000. | :58:44. | :58:48. | |
When you take that with a 20% discount, as we are talking about, | :58:49. | :58:51. | |
and allow someone to buy it with a 5% deposit, you change | :58:52. | :58:55. | |
affordability, and I'm hoping he will support their chance for more | :58:56. | :58:58. | |
Londoners to get on the housing ladder. Equally, this is not the | :58:59. | :59:01. | |
only thing we're doing to promote affordable homeownership. A scheme | :59:02. | :59:05. | |
out there now for shared-ownership will also play an important bar, | :59:06. | :59:09. | |
particularly somewhere like London. I thank him for giving way. Can I | :59:10. | :59:15. | |
absolutely clarify, but the role of the Public Accounts Committee and my | :59:16. | :59:18. | |
role as chair of that committee. My we had a forensics organisation I | :59:19. | :59:21. | |
work investigation by the National Audit Office, and set out to help | :59:22. | :59:26. | |
the taxpayer and government deliberately 's policy to make sure | :59:27. | :59:28. | |
it is an affordable policy, that the key question that need to be in | :59:29. | :59:31. | |
place before it can be delivered are actually worked on. This minister is | :59:32. | :59:37. | |
being very cavalier, if I may say, in sweeping aside the findings of | :59:38. | :59:42. | |
the report, which was well measured, cross-party, and unanimous. | :59:43. | :59:48. | |
I would just say to the honourable lady, who I have huge respect for, | :59:49. | :59:52. | |
that I was not sweeping it aside at all. I am more focused, and I make | :59:53. | :59:55. | |
no apologies for this, and making sure we don't allow the cavalier | :59:56. | :59:58. | |
attitude of the party opposite, who want to do down people took away who | :59:59. | :00:02. | |
want the chance of a home of their own they can buy, and we are | :00:03. | :00:05. | |
determined to deliver on our promise in the manifesto to deliver that. I | :00:06. | :00:08. | |
will make progress and then give away some more. I believe there will | :00:09. | :00:13. | |
be much we can agree on with the other players here today. I will be | :00:14. | :00:16. | |
very clear. As we have just touched on, there are all -- also things we | :00:17. | :00:23. | |
cannot. We are determined to deliver for Britain on our election | :00:24. | :00:26. | |
promises. The manifesto which this government was elected that very | :00:27. | :00:29. | |
clear statement of intent about the Bible extension of the right to buy, | :00:30. | :00:34. | |
paid for by the sale of higher value housing, and 200,000 starter homes | :00:35. | :00:36. | |
by the end of this Parliament will stop I give way. I think my | :00:37. | :00:45. | |
honourable friend. -- thanks. People in my constituency look at many of | :00:46. | :00:48. | |
the argument is made by the party opposite, saying, this is a | :00:49. | :00:53. | |
completely London focused argument. What we want in Lancashire is | :00:54. | :00:59. | |
starter homes for people at a discount. We want the extension of | :01:00. | :01:03. | |
other affordable houses, and Will the minister just take the | :01:04. | :01:05. | |
opportunity to agree with everyone who lives in Lancashire he says, | :01:06. | :01:09. | |
let's get on with it, we want to buy and live in an affordable home. Lets | :01:10. | :01:17. | |
not just talk about London. He makes a good point. Around the country, I | :01:18. | :01:20. | |
find a real frustration about wanting to get on the policies this | :01:21. | :01:23. | |
government has laid out, that we elected us to deliver, and seeing | :01:24. | :01:27. | |
the party opposite and a stolen trouble at ago processor just about | :01:28. | :01:31. | |
every opportunity. But also, for those understandably focused, it is | :01:32. | :01:34. | |
a real pressure, and we have the honourable member for Richmond Park | :01:35. | :01:37. | |
to thank for his pressure that we worked with him to deliver, making | :01:38. | :01:43. | |
sure that in London, for every home sold, leased to matter will be | :01:44. | :01:46. | |
built, driving a direct increase in housing supply. I must say, and with | :01:47. | :01:52. | |
due respect to my Lancashire Colli, starter homes will work on the | :01:53. | :01:55. | |
London boroughs as well. In my borough of Croydon, the | :01:56. | :01:59. | |
average will be ?190,000, meaning a Help to Buy mortgage will need a | :02:00. | :02:06. | |
?10,000 a bottle, and a couple, each earning ?22,500 can afford to buy. | :02:07. | :02:10. | |
In Croydon, I think it will work. I think he has just highlighted how | :02:11. | :02:13. | |
this policy is actually about delivering for people on the ground, | :02:14. | :02:17. | |
while members opposite me want to pontificate here in the house. We | :02:18. | :02:20. | |
will stay focused on delivering homes for people across our country | :02:21. | :02:25. | |
and here in the capital. We have to tailor policies to fit | :02:26. | :02:29. | |
all parts of the country, and that includes London. In inner London, | :02:30. | :02:35. | |
starter homes will indeed come in at ?450,000. We had to speak the | :02:36. | :02:39. | |
language of priorities. Is the minister really telling effect they | :02:40. | :02:43. | |
had requires an income of ?77,000 a year, more than a member of | :02:44. | :02:46. | |
Parliament, is a genuinely good use of public budget? | :02:47. | :02:53. | |
I am tempted to use that inevitable phrase, I would refer the lady to | :02:54. | :02:58. | |
your comments I gave it a few moments ago. As I said earlier, the | :02:59. | :03:02. | |
price of first-time buyer pays is quite different. I have myself | :03:03. | :03:08. | |
visited with the member for Richmond Park, home is already well below | :03:09. | :03:11. | |
that price, which is a cap, not the prize these properties will be at. I | :03:12. | :03:15. | |
expect to see them much lower. I will start with those properties and | :03:16. | :03:18. | |
make a bit more progress on starter homes. With a minimum loan which | :03:19. | :03:27. | |
requires a starter home the repeal of the 20% started a scan, reducing | :03:28. | :03:33. | |
by 1% 80 of occupation, for a period of 20 years. The average first-time | :03:34. | :03:36. | |
buyer, we should bear in mind, spends just under seven years in | :03:37. | :03:40. | |
their home. The average in this country is only about seven years in | :03:41. | :03:44. | |
a home. To us onto stable 20 years, therefore buying a home potentially | :03:45. | :03:49. | |
in 30 and not being able to benefit from a discount with promise until | :03:50. | :03:51. | |
they are 50, simply does not stack up. I will be very clear that we | :03:52. | :03:55. | |
want to ensure starter homes are sold to those who are genuinely | :03:56. | :03:59. | |
committed to living in an area, and not to those who think they want to | :04:00. | :04:02. | |
secure a financial uplift by selling on quickly. But we want to make sure | :04:03. | :04:08. | |
we're supporting mobility, so a balance must be struck. Whereas I | :04:09. | :04:13. | |
propose we disagree with Amendment 1, I move in its place amendments | :04:14. | :04:18. | |
one A, one B and one CE, which provide a power to implement a | :04:19. | :04:22. | |
tapered approach to resale. The longer you live in a property, the | :04:23. | :04:27. | |
more value you will gain. This was proposed by the other place, but our | :04:28. | :04:30. | |
amendment provides that the sector is a state can make regulations on | :04:31. | :04:34. | |
the length of the period, and on the details of how the taper will | :04:35. | :04:37. | |
operate, so that we can make sure it is effective and delivers more | :04:38. | :04:41. | |
people in the real world. These amendments set out to models, | :04:42. | :04:46. | |
potential models for the operation of a taper. Example, one starter | :04:47. | :04:50. | |
home is sold, the first-time buyer, if there is a discount to come back, | :04:51. | :04:55. | |
must pay a proportion of a discount to a specified party. This is the | :04:56. | :05:00. | |
approach suggested by the other place, and I can see the logic, as a | :05:01. | :05:04. | |
body could then use those funds to build more affordable homes. As part | :05:05. | :05:10. | |
of our consultation on starter homes regulations, we seek the views of | :05:11. | :05:14. | |
developers, lenders and local authorities and how such a taper | :05:15. | :05:18. | |
would operate. We strongly believe we should settle littering gateman | :05:19. | :05:21. | |
with the sector, rather than placing the detail of restrictions on | :05:22. | :05:25. | |
legislation. I'm confident this is the best way for us to meet our | :05:26. | :05:28. | |
manifesto commitment on starter homes. | :05:29. | :05:30. | |
I will give way. Thank you. I thank my honourable | :05:31. | :05:41. | |
friend. Could he outlined the government position in relation to | :05:42. | :05:45. | |
the taper? Will list the original taper, or a one size fits all for | :05:46. | :05:52. | |
the whole of the UK? Clearly, as outlined, the prices of properties | :05:53. | :05:57. | |
vary quite considerably, and the important thing here is to make sure | :05:58. | :06:01. | |
that they are used for the benefit of people to actually live in. | :06:02. | :06:07. | |
He makes a very good point, and gives a good example of why the | :06:08. | :06:11. | |
strictures of legislation do not work for this, and why it is | :06:12. | :06:15. | |
important for us to complete that consultation, running till May the | :06:16. | :06:18. | |
18th, to allow feedback to come through and deal with this in | :06:19. | :06:22. | |
regulations. This is a proportional discount, and the value differential | :06:23. | :06:26. | |
is dealt with in the way the percentages would work. I will give | :06:27. | :06:28. | |
way. He will remember that during the | :06:29. | :06:32. | |
committee stage of the bill, back at the end of last year, we had a | :06:33. | :06:38. | |
number of exchanges, and as a result of changes to the bill, housing | :06:39. | :06:43. | |
cooperatives that owner properties are largely exempt from many of the | :06:44. | :06:50. | |
provisions of the bill. -- own their properties. However, those that | :06:51. | :06:54. | |
manage properties and out of local authorities will still be badly hit | :06:55. | :06:57. | |
by many of the provisions in the bill. Potentially, it will be | :06:58. | :07:02. | |
housing co-op properties that will be part of the 100 plus thousands | :07:03. | :07:09. | |
poverty is currently owned by councils -- properties, that are | :07:10. | :07:11. | |
likely to be lost as part of the impact of this bill, and I wonder if | :07:12. | :07:15. | |
at this stage, whether he might be willing to give a commitment before | :07:16. | :07:20. | |
the Bill goes back to the other place, to look again at the specific | :07:21. | :07:27. | |
impact on housing co-op 's of those that manage properties in behalf of | :07:28. | :07:30. | |
councils. I would say to the honourable | :07:31. | :07:34. | |
gentleman that I will come on to talk about the provision in a | :07:35. | :07:37. | |
moment, but we will be very clear about making sure that there is a | :07:38. | :07:40. | |
new home built for every home sold. I give way. | :07:41. | :07:47. | |
How much consultation has he actually taken place, with the | :07:48. | :07:51. | |
voluntary sector on one hand and local authorities on the other, in | :07:52. | :07:54. | |
relation to the impact? He knows as well as I do that obviously, his | :07:55. | :07:58. | |
department will have done some kind of impact assessment on the cost of | :07:59. | :08:04. | |
viability. With starter homes, obviously, there | :08:05. | :08:08. | |
is a very clear position. We have worked across the cities. A lot of | :08:09. | :08:15. | |
areas are very keen, as you have heard, for us to get on with | :08:16. | :08:18. | |
delivering this and making sure we are starting to get more affordable | :08:19. | :08:21. | |
homes out there for people who want to buy them. So those are simply not | :08:22. | :08:24. | |
been there in this country before. On the affordability question, is he | :08:25. | :08:34. | |
aware that the average deposit in London is ?91,000 for a property? I | :08:35. | :08:38. | |
would say to the honourable lady that is why it is important that we | :08:39. | :08:42. | |
have extended and changed it so that we now have the London Help To Buy, | :08:43. | :08:45. | |
which changes that. It is important that we have those starter homes | :08:46. | :08:50. | |
with that 20% discount and white shirt ownership is important, why we | :08:51. | :08:54. | |
are determined to deliver 135,000 more assured ownership homes. The | :08:55. | :09:04. | |
prospective went out, this completely changes the | :09:05. | :09:10. | |
affordability. I thank him for giving way to stop one of the law's | :09:11. | :09:16. | |
amendments -- Lords amendments says that if social housing is sold, | :09:17. | :09:20. | |
there is another social house built in the local area in which it was | :09:21. | :09:23. | |
sold. If the Minister agreeing with that? I will come onto deal with | :09:24. | :09:29. | |
high-value assets in just a few moments. We are just want to finish | :09:30. | :09:34. | |
dealing with the issue of starter homes, whereas she has delivered | :09:35. | :09:38. | |
high-value assets. That pledges and there to deliver to my columns for | :09:39. | :09:41. | |
every home built, which is now, thanks to him, on the base of the | :09:42. | :09:45. | |
bill to stop at I will come very specifically to that point of a few | :09:46. | :09:48. | |
moments. Our manifesto was very clear. This House was clear when it | :09:49. | :09:53. | |
a majority of 91 to this bill's second reading. We will deliver | :09:54. | :09:56. | |
starter homes. And we will deliver the number we promised. To the point | :09:57. | :10:01. | |
of starter homes and affordability, the honourable lady opposite | :10:02. | :10:06. | |
mentioned about the deposit but a very big cash cost for any first | :10:07. | :10:11. | |
time buyer, or any buyer, is stamp duty and so will he confirm that on | :10:12. | :10:14. | |
a starter home the stamp duty would apply to the discounted price, and | :10:15. | :10:20. | |
so would also be 20% lower? He makes a very good point. The stamp duty | :10:21. | :10:23. | |
applies to the price paid for the property, so it would apply at | :10:24. | :10:27. | |
reduced price, in itself making a further benefit for people buying a | :10:28. | :10:35. | |
new home. I have to be very clear, we are absolutely determined to | :10:36. | :10:37. | |
deliver starter homes any number that we promised to help first-time | :10:38. | :10:40. | |
buyers, the worst hit part of the home buying sector from Labour's | :10:41. | :10:44. | |
group recession. The other place in passing amendments it- men actually | :10:45. | :10:48. | |
seek to stop us. This House should not stand for that. Amendment 8-9 | :10:49. | :10:54. | |
remove the power to start a national -- set a national requirement on the | :10:55. | :10:57. | |
bill. The other place replaced this power with a local said requirement, | :10:58. | :11:01. | |
which would be effective only where local authorities have complete | :11:02. | :11:04. | |
studies of local housing need and viability. We hear a lot from local | :11:05. | :11:12. | |
authorities about trying to secure rental properties, but I think in | :11:13. | :11:18. | |
this country we have a kind of right to own our own home and this | :11:19. | :11:20. | |
Government is doing that and delivering that through this bill. | :11:21. | :11:24. | |
He makes a very good point. Despite the comments from a sedentary | :11:25. | :11:29. | |
position for the member from Tottenham. He highlights why it is | :11:30. | :11:31. | |
so important that we cannot wait and should not wait for 336 different | :11:32. | :11:37. | |
planning authorities to each undertake local needs and viability | :11:38. | :11:40. | |
assessments before action on starter homes is even taken. These | :11:41. | :11:45. | |
amendments would hurt the very people we are here and trying to | :11:46. | :11:49. | |
help the hardest. First-time buyers, in just a moment, first time buyers | :11:50. | :11:54. | |
would yet again see their chance of homeownership kicked firmly into the | :11:55. | :11:56. | |
long grass by these proposals. That may be what the party opposite once | :11:57. | :12:06. | |
but we do not. Happy to give way. I want to work out whether starter | :12:07. | :12:08. | |
homes are going to be in addition to other homes that would have been | :12:09. | :12:12. | |
built or instead of. The select Committee unanimously agreed the | :12:13. | :12:18. | |
following words," starter homes should not be built at the expense | :12:19. | :12:24. | |
of other forms of tenure. Where the need exists, it is vital but hopes | :12:25. | :12:27. | |
for affordable rent or thought to reflect local needs." Will he | :12:28. | :12:35. | |
confirm whether the bill, and he wants it to be water, starter homes | :12:36. | :12:38. | |
would be the priority and would be shot and it displays affordable | :12:39. | :12:42. | |
homes for rent as part of one of six agreements? I would say to the | :12:43. | :12:47. | |
chairman of the Select Committee we have been very clear from the | :12:48. | :12:50. | |
beginning. We need to see a shift in this country. We have had this | :12:51. | :12:54. | |
farcical situation when we in this place talk about affordable homes, | :12:55. | :12:57. | |
it only refers to homes that people can rent. 86% of our population want | :12:58. | :13:02. | |
to buy their own home. Therefore it is absolutely right that affordable | :13:03. | :13:07. | |
homes should include homes that are affordable to buy. We make no | :13:08. | :13:11. | |
apologies for creating a new product and turbo-charging a new product to | :13:12. | :13:16. | |
make sure that we get 200,000 built over the course of this Parliament. | :13:17. | :13:19. | |
We already have many hundreds of thousands of homes across this | :13:20. | :13:22. | |
country that are in the rental sector. We need to make sure we are | :13:23. | :13:25. | |
getting the chance to first-time buyers. To be blunt, exactly what we | :13:26. | :13:30. | |
said, what we put on the tin in the general election manifesto, we will | :13:31. | :13:33. | |
deliver on our mandate to deliver starter homes. I am just want to | :13:34. | :13:36. | |
come with this point. We will deliver on that mandate to deliver | :13:37. | :13:40. | |
200,000 starters homes, making sure delivering homes for first empires | :13:41. | :13:45. | |
with at least a 20% discount on that market price. We have also | :13:46. | :13:49. | |
recognised in discussing the discussions in the other place that | :13:50. | :13:53. | |
local exemption site may require additional exemption on starter | :13:54. | :13:57. | |
homes. These details should be on the face of the bill. -- additional | :13:58. | :14:07. | |
queries. My noble friend Baroness Williams of Trafford committed to | :14:08. | :14:10. | |
bring back an amendment to give councils local discretion on rural | :14:11. | :14:13. | |
exception sites. I am pleased to be able to honour this commitment in | :14:14. | :14:20. | |
amendment 10a. I would also say that when you talk to developers and | :14:21. | :14:23. | |
local authorities around sites around the country, one of the | :14:24. | :14:26. | |
benefits of starter homes is we may be able to see more affordable | :14:27. | :14:29. | |
housing delivered because what this does allow is for the developers to | :14:30. | :14:32. | |
actually deliver more. I spoke to a number of deliver, developers who | :14:33. | :14:36. | |
have said the difference starter homes could make is the ability to | :14:37. | :14:40. | |
deliver 5-10% more affordable housing in some developments. Mr | :14:41. | :14:45. | |
Deputy Speaker, there was a lot of discussion, both here and in the | :14:46. | :14:50. | |
other place, about our plans to deliver the ground-breaking | :14:51. | :14:53. | |
voluntary Right to Buy agreement for the sale of higher value housing. | :14:54. | :14:55. | |
Another manifesto commitment passed from this place to the other place, | :14:56. | :15:00. | |
another change we are discussing today. Amendments 37 and 184 would | :15:01. | :15:06. | |
mean considerable delay to receiving payments from local authorities and | :15:07. | :15:10. | |
therefore to delivering our manifesto commitment to extend the | :15:11. | :15:13. | |
right to Buy to housing association tenants. We remain convinced that | :15:14. | :15:18. | |
the determination is the most appropriate way of setting up | :15:19. | :15:21. | |
information about the payment a local authority will be expected to | :15:22. | :15:24. | |
make to the Secretary of State in respect of their higher value | :15:25. | :15:27. | |
housing. The key elements, which will determine how much an authority | :15:28. | :15:32. | |
will be expected to pay, are set out on the face of the bill. This | :15:33. | :15:34. | |
includes the housing to be taken into account and indeed the | :15:35. | :15:38. | |
definition of vacancy. The government has listened carefully to | :15:39. | :15:41. | |
the argument is honourable members made when the bill was last debated | :15:42. | :15:44. | |
and the contributions of all those in the other place. We have amended | :15:45. | :15:50. | |
the bill to ensure local authorities are not disproportionately affected | :15:51. | :15:53. | |
by these plans. The definition of higher value and the types of value | :15:54. | :15:57. | |
which are to be excluded -- property which are to be excluded are to be | :15:58. | :16:01. | |
set out in the conditions and therefore subject to further | :16:02. | :16:03. | |
Parliamentary scrutiny. I want to be clear with the House once again. The | :16:04. | :16:09. | |
opposition bench and any other place or also clear. They did not | :16:10. | :16:13. | |
officially closes enabling the voluntary Right to Buy tripled. They | :16:14. | :16:16. | |
acknowledged a mandate for funding. However, these amendments will | :16:17. | :16:19. | |
impact seriously hamper our ability to implement it and so should be | :16:20. | :16:24. | |
returned straightaway. Likewise with amendment 47, which is extremely | :16:25. | :16:29. | |
restrictive. It prevents government also from considering other local | :16:30. | :16:32. | |
authorities can actually deliver the housing that is required. We want to | :16:33. | :16:37. | |
make sure that government can enter agreements with local authorities | :16:38. | :16:39. | |
around the local needs. But by focusing solely on social housing, | :16:40. | :16:43. | |
it prevents the agreement process from recognising that flexibility | :16:44. | :16:47. | |
will be needed to respond to the diverse housing needs in the | :16:48. | :16:52. | |
country. We authority heard about different needs of different places | :16:53. | :16:56. | |
from honourable friends this afternoon and that other types of | :16:57. | :16:58. | |
localising the better meet localising lead in any given area. | :16:59. | :17:02. | |
Do find it difficult to listen to those who accuse us of not being | :17:03. | :17:06. | |
local last waltz the table amendments like this, mandating an | :17:07. | :17:11. | |
old-fashioned top-down approach. We want to make sure we give local | :17:12. | :17:16. | |
authorities with particular housing needs in their area the opportunity | :17:17. | :17:21. | |
to reach this book agreements about the delivery of new homes in areas. | :17:22. | :17:30. | |
I am still as confused as at the beginning of the surveyed and the | :17:31. | :17:33. | |
select committee hearings. The Minister has made a reasonable | :17:34. | :17:36. | |
height and I thoroughly agree with him, that it should be the local | :17:37. | :17:38. | |
authorities in the areas to determine the competition of homes | :17:39. | :17:42. | |
to be built as part of 106 agreements. How does that square | :17:43. | :17:45. | |
with a party who says priority should be given to starter homes and | :17:46. | :17:50. | |
will build a 200,000, irrespective of the building of other sorts of | :17:51. | :17:54. | |
housing. What we are talking about is what happens with the sale of the | :17:55. | :17:57. | |
higher value properties, which is actually slightly different. We want | :17:58. | :18:03. | |
to make sure that we give local authorities with particular housing | :18:04. | :18:06. | |
needs an area the opportunity to read this book agreements about the | :18:07. | :18:08. | |
delivery of different height of new homes in the area with government. | :18:09. | :18:12. | |
If local authorities can demonstrate, for example, a clear | :18:13. | :18:16. | |
need for new affordable homes, the agreement with them, subject to | :18:17. | :18:20. | |
value for money considerations and evidence of a strong track record of | :18:21. | :18:23. | |
housing delivery, we and they should be able to make that case. That is | :18:24. | :18:27. | |
important for areas where I have visited such as Bath and Oxford and | :18:28. | :18:31. | |
when I met leaders in Cambridge, they want that flexibility to get | :18:32. | :18:38. | |
the right deal for their areas. I really very much hope that the | :18:39. | :18:46. | |
higher value homes will have flexible at particularly warehouses | :18:47. | :18:50. | |
prices are particular higher law and I am delighted that you have taken | :18:51. | :18:53. | |
cognizance of our needs for various people and their various different | :18:54. | :18:57. | |
areas in order that the local leaders met. She makes a very good | :18:58. | :19:03. | |
point about the importance of the flexible to. -- the local need is | :19:04. | :19:07. | |
met. In London, parties have asked for the ability to work together to | :19:08. | :19:11. | |
deliver on this front. We need new homes built in this country and this | :19:12. | :19:14. | |
amendment would limit the ability of the government and local authorities | :19:15. | :19:17. | |
working with us to ensure that the right mix of housing is delivered as | :19:18. | :19:20. | |
quickly and efficiently as possible. I thank him for giving way and he | :19:21. | :19:24. | |
has been incredibly generous. As he will know from his visit to both a | :19:25. | :19:29. | |
couple of weeks ago, of course, we do not have high-value assets. We do | :19:30. | :19:33. | |
have a high cost of housing in our area. Given what has been announced | :19:34. | :19:39. | |
earlier in relation to the shift from high-value assets to higher | :19:40. | :19:45. | |
value assets, which will not be applicable, what ways can our | :19:46. | :19:48. | |
authority, combined with other authorities, bid for different funds | :19:49. | :19:51. | |
following from the budget announcement question might he makes | :19:52. | :19:54. | |
a good point. When I visited him and made his constituency in Bath I saw | :19:55. | :20:05. | |
a good example of a local authority understanding of local needs. | :20:06. | :20:08. | |
Whether that is working with government to bid for the ?4.7 | :20:09. | :20:11. | |
billion in the shared ownership fund or the 1.2 billion for Brian Field | :20:12. | :20:18. | |
funding starter homes specifically available. -- Brian Field. Or | :20:19. | :20:25. | |
working with other local authorities around the income they may be able | :20:26. | :20:28. | |
to use to deliver from higher value homes. It is actually going to have | :20:29. | :20:31. | |
that flexibility, to understand the different areas cross-party want but | :20:32. | :20:38. | |
Flex ability to deliver it. I am going to turn to amendments 54, 55, | :20:39. | :20:43. | |
57 and 58, all of which I disagree with. Amendment 54 makes policy to | :20:44. | :20:48. | |
implement the resource rents laundry. It is, as my noble friend | :20:49. | :20:51. | |
said on the other place, the plight of the male of the privacy of their | :20:52. | :20:56. | |
size. Local authorities can already operate the quality on a voluntary | :20:57. | :21:00. | |
basis and we are not aware of any that have done so. To put it simply, | :21:01. | :21:04. | |
this is a wrecking amendment and this has should treat as such. The | :21:05. | :21:12. | |
policy must also apply consistently. It would not be right for tenants in | :21:13. | :21:16. | |
certain areas to face possible rent increases while tenants in a | :21:17. | :21:18. | |
neighbouring area do not so the amendment completely undermines the | :21:19. | :21:22. | |
government's in putting in place a consistent approach and using the | :21:23. | :21:26. | |
funds raised to reduce the national debt is that which we inherited from | :21:27. | :21:29. | |
the party opposite and it was substantially -- would substantially | :21:30. | :21:35. | |
reduce the deficit of this. Perhaps she will apologise for the deficit. | :21:36. | :21:41. | |
Westminster Council announced in 2012 that they were extremely keen | :21:42. | :21:47. | |
to introduce a version of this and charge the higher earning tenants a | :21:48. | :21:51. | |
higher rent and I've never done so because they have never found a way | :21:52. | :21:54. | |
of being able to introduce such a scheme which was not ridiculously | :21:55. | :22:00. | |
bureaucratic costly and acted as a work disincentive. The honourable | :22:01. | :22:03. | |
lady I am sure will be interested to hear what I'm going to see in few | :22:04. | :22:08. | |
minutes around how this practice could work but also make sure it | :22:09. | :22:14. | |
always pays to work. We have a package and statement of intent to | :22:15. | :22:18. | |
injure the policy is there and that does not damage the incentive to | :22:19. | :22:21. | |
find and keep work. In addition, we have committed to allowing local | :22:22. | :22:27. | |
authorities to regain reasonable administration costs and my | :22:28. | :22:29. | |
officials are working with the sector to a stab at an approach to a | :22:30. | :22:32. | |
commendation which would minimise the costs. Amendment 55 seats to set | :22:33. | :22:39. | |
on the face of the bill the amount of the taper at 10%. -- with the | :22:40. | :22:45. | |
sector to establish an approach which would minimise the cost. An | :22:46. | :22:51. | |
extra ?20 in rent for every pound earned up of the income threshold | :22:52. | :22:54. | |
would mean for example that a household earning over the ?31,000 | :22:55. | :22:57. | |
threshold would contribute just a few pounds per week in additional | :22:58. | :23:02. | |
rent. This level recognises the importance of protecting work | :23:03. | :23:05. | |
incentives but is a fair contribution. It is important that | :23:06. | :23:08. | |
we retain the flexibility to set out the detail of the deeper in | :23:09. | :23:13. | |
secondary legislation. We want to keep the position under review. | :23:14. | :23:17. | |
Putting the detail on the face of the bill prevents us from doing | :23:18. | :23:21. | |
this. We have confirmed the regulations will be subject to the | :23:22. | :23:24. | |
affirmative procedure, which I am sure will be welcomed by the House. | :23:25. | :23:26. | |
They were before being another chance to debate these items before | :23:27. | :23:31. | |
they come into force. Amendment 57 sets on the face of the bill higher | :23:32. | :23:36. | |
income thresholds, totally undermining the printable that | :23:37. | :23:39. | |
social tenants on higher incomes should start to contribute a fair | :23:40. | :23:45. | |
level of rent at the threshold of ?31,000 and ?40,000 in London. We | :23:46. | :23:48. | |
have listen to concerns about the policy and taken a number of steps | :23:49. | :23:52. | |
as a result. There will be an automatic exemption for any | :23:53. | :23:56. | |
household in receipt of housing benefit and universal credit. The | :23:57. | :23:59. | |
definition of household will not include income from non-dependent | :24:00. | :24:02. | |
children. 18-year-old starting his first job, for example, and certain | :24:03. | :24:08. | |
state benefits such as tax credits, disability living allowance and | :24:09. | :24:11. | |
independence payments will not count towards the calculation of income. | :24:12. | :24:16. | |
We have also confirmed the officials will be supported by a taper which | :24:17. | :24:19. | |
will ensure the households towards the start of the officials will see | :24:20. | :24:24. | |
their rents rise by a few pounds each week. | :24:25. | :24:29. | |
Thank you. I welcome those safeguards he is setting out. Does | :24:30. | :24:34. | |
he not agree that, considering many of those on the opposite side idea | :24:35. | :24:38. | |
that the rich should pay more, it is rather puzzling that in this case, | :24:39. | :24:42. | |
they seem to oppose that idea? Well, my honourable friend and neighbour, | :24:43. | :24:48. | |
indeed, may say very interesting point. I think people reading | :24:49. | :24:51. | |
Hansard may want to read their own conclusions about that means. We are | :24:52. | :24:56. | |
very clear that the social tenants on higher incomes contribute more in | :24:57. | :25:00. | |
rent where they can afford to do so, but also mindful that the policy | :25:01. | :25:03. | |
should protect work incentives. I will give way. | :25:04. | :25:09. | |
Thank you for giving way. I take great offence to the suggestion that | :25:10. | :25:15. | |
people on fixed income, for example, pensioners at ?40,000 a year in my | :25:16. | :25:18. | |
constituency, would you consider rich, or that they would actually | :25:19. | :25:23. | |
have any other housing option. -- would be considered rich. If you are | :25:24. | :25:26. | |
a certain age with a fixed income, you cannot rent privately. Rent | :25:27. | :25:30. | |
would be over ?1500, or certainly a lot more for a two-bedroom flat. You | :25:31. | :25:34. | |
cannot buy, with the average property price is 682,000, and would | :25:35. | :25:38. | |
not qualify for a starter home even if wanting somewhere that size. Does | :25:39. | :25:42. | |
the minister not acknowledge that this is invidious, in attacking some | :25:43. | :25:45. | |
of those people who really don't have a great deal of money? | :25:46. | :25:48. | |
I don't think that recognises the policy as it stands at all. The | :25:49. | :25:52. | |
policy as it stands is about, as people earn more, they pay if you | :25:53. | :25:56. | |
pounds a week more, which I don't think is unreasonable at all, and | :25:57. | :25:58. | |
naturally makes sure we are making the best use of the social housing | :25:59. | :26:04. | |
stock we have possible. I give way. It is difficult to know where to | :26:05. | :26:06. | |
start with the honourable gentleman. He talks about paying an extra few | :26:07. | :26:11. | |
pounds more. This is nonsense. What this actually is is a tax on | :26:12. | :26:16. | |
aspiration, and the idea that a family in London earning 40 grand a | :26:17. | :26:21. | |
year is rich is baloney. It really does cost an awful lot to live in | :26:22. | :26:25. | |
this wonderful capital city of ours, something that the minister fails to | :26:26. | :26:28. | |
grasp. I would suggest that if she reads | :26:29. | :26:33. | |
actually what is in the Bill and in the amendment, she will appreciate | :26:34. | :26:36. | |
that we're not suggesting that people over that income suddenly | :26:37. | :26:39. | |
don't have that home or have to move, we're saying that as people | :26:40. | :26:43. | |
earn more money, they contribute more into the system, which actually | :26:44. | :26:46. | |
is quite reasonable to do, and actually makes sure that we are | :26:47. | :26:50. | |
making the best use of those properties for people who need them | :26:51. | :26:53. | |
most. The package we have announced actually achieves both tenets of | :26:54. | :27:01. | |
making sure we have a policy where we protect work incentives, and on | :27:02. | :27:05. | |
that basis, I cannot support the amendment, nor amendment 58, which | :27:06. | :27:08. | |
raises the income threshold by the consumer Price index. I hope we will | :27:09. | :27:14. | |
ask the house to agree. Did they | :27:15. | :27:19. | |
we have very clear evidence from housing associations would cost more | :27:20. | :27:23. | |
to minister the skin and they were get in on returns from extra rent. | :27:24. | :27:27. | |
Can the government present a very clear analysis of what the | :27:28. | :27:30. | |
administration costs of this scheme will be, particularly for people on | :27:31. | :27:33. | |
variable incomes, with varying from going up and down each week and | :27:34. | :27:37. | |
Aaron going up and down, an enormous amount of administration to go with | :27:38. | :27:41. | |
the skin that he is now proposing? I think he is also missing the point | :27:42. | :27:45. | |
that what we also see with this is then is across the system. There are | :27:46. | :27:48. | |
people in London cities and other parts of the country who are in the | :27:49. | :27:52. | |
private rented sector, who are in the private rented sector on these | :27:53. | :27:55. | |
salaries and salaries and higher and lower, wondering why people earning | :27:56. | :28:03. | |
over 40, and actually, secretaries of State Europe in social rented | :28:04. | :28:06. | |
housing and salaries of ?25,000, union leaders and salaries over | :28:07. | :28:10. | |
?100,000, and there are tens of thousands of people out there | :28:11. | :28:14. | |
earning over 40 or ?50,000 a year, benefiting from things that are not | :28:15. | :28:21. | |
fair to people with those kind of salaries of like an opportunity. | :28:22. | :28:26. | |
I give way. Thank you. I thank him for giving way. Would my honourable | :28:27. | :28:30. | |
friend not actually relate to the house at the reality of social | :28:31. | :28:37. | |
housing for rent in London and beyond is for people that are | :28:38. | :28:41. | |
homeless, to start with? And actually, there is a huge queue of | :28:42. | :28:46. | |
people waiting for a socially rented property, and it is totally | :28:47. | :28:50. | |
unacceptable for people that are on relatively high salaries to occupy | :28:51. | :28:53. | |
socially rented rocker tees, when there is such a huge queue and such | :28:54. | :29:00. | |
huge demand? -- rented properties. My honourable friend brings to key | :29:01. | :29:04. | |
focus one of the problems of the deficit in housing that this | :29:05. | :29:08. | |
government inherited in 2010, and not only did we see the lowest level | :29:09. | :29:11. | |
of house building and the gentleman's party opposite since | :29:12. | :29:17. | |
1923, but in 13 years, they built less homes to their councils and | :29:18. | :29:20. | |
social housing than we have done in the last 4-5 years. There is a huge | :29:21. | :29:25. | |
mound to do, and more opportunities for people to have homes right | :29:26. | :29:30. | |
across all ten years, whether shared-ownership, through rental, | :29:31. | :29:33. | |
private rental or otherwise, as well as affordable rent, and indeed, | :29:34. | :29:35. | |
making sure that people have a chance to get on and achieve their | :29:36. | :29:40. | |
aspirations, that 86% of the public, to achieve that aspiration to buy a | :29:41. | :29:45. | |
home of their own. The house may well be glad that I once ate to | :29:46. | :29:48. | |
every government amendment before us today. You might be pleased about | :29:49. | :29:55. | |
that. Many are minor and very technical in nature, and if I spoke | :29:56. | :29:59. | |
to the more, much as we may all enjoy it, there will be some who | :30:00. | :30:01. | |
will not thank me, because we might still be here by prorogation. But of | :30:02. | :30:07. | |
the makes this works better for those who them and these policies on | :30:08. | :30:10. | |
the ground. The amendments are there because the government has listened | :30:11. | :30:13. | |
to the debate and taken action as a result. Where we have done this, | :30:14. | :30:15. | |
where we have strengthened the ability for people to own their own | :30:16. | :30:21. | |
home and get Britain building again, building a 25% increase in building | :30:22. | :30:24. | |
we saw in the last year, my bit to move the house agrees to those | :30:25. | :30:29. | |
changes that the other place have made, but I also want to send a very | :30:30. | :30:33. | |
strong message, that this government will not slow the pace of house | :30:34. | :30:37. | |
building. We will increase it. We will not take away people's dream of | :30:38. | :30:42. | |
home ownership. We will inspire it. Am I will deliver our manifesto | :30:43. | :30:45. | |
commitments. And that they respond to this debate, and looking at the | :30:46. | :30:50. | |
seating arrangement, I suspect the honourable lady may respond, I hope | :30:51. | :30:55. | |
the opposition will ask themselves why they stand against our mandate | :30:56. | :30:58. | |
to boost homeownership and supply, something the people of this country | :30:59. | :31:01. | |
want and expect to see. Because while they cluster with political | :31:02. | :31:06. | |
posturing after the abysmal mess of housing that they left, we will | :31:07. | :31:08. | |
remain focused on building homes across our country, across all ten | :31:09. | :31:13. | |
years, and deliver an increase in housing supply and homeownership. It | :31:14. | :31:17. | |
is what we promised and what we will deliver, and I beg to move. | :31:18. | :31:23. | |
The question is, that this house is agrees with the Lords in their | :31:24. | :31:27. | |
Amendment 1. . | :31:28. | :31:31. | |
I want to begin by thanking the lordships for the amazing work they | :31:32. | :31:39. | |
did on this ill. 13 defeats, and a string of concessions means some of | :31:40. | :31:43. | |
the sharpest edges have been knocked off a very bad will. -- Bill -- | :31:44. | :31:51. | |
bill. It remains an extraordinary piece of legislation. Concerns have | :31:52. | :31:56. | |
been voiced by pricing experts, charities, has builders, mortgage | :31:57. | :31:58. | |
lenders, and conservatives across a range of council leaders, MPs and | :31:59. | :32:03. | |
peers. Doubts about the legislation matter, but even more important, the | :32:04. | :32:09. | |
deeper doubts on all fronts about whether the party opposite are | :32:10. | :32:12. | |
competent to fix our housing crisis. And with good reason. Since 2010, | :32:13. | :32:19. | |
homeownership has fallen, homelessness and rough sleeping have | :32:20. | :32:24. | |
doubled, private rents have soared, housing benefit costs have | :32:25. | :32:27. | |
ballooned, and during the last Parliament, fewer new homes were | :32:28. | :32:31. | |
built than under any peacetime government since the 1920s. I will | :32:32. | :32:36. | |
give way in just a moment. This bill does little to tackle the | :32:37. | :32:42. | |
overall housing shortage or produce more housing across all ten years, | :32:43. | :32:50. | |
including housing to rent as well as Dubai, and with the exception of | :32:51. | :32:53. | |
rogue landlords, provisions does nothing improve the private rented | :32:54. | :32:59. | |
sector that so many people now rely on. -- to rent as well as to buy. | :33:00. | :33:04. | |
Peggy the giving way. Which he talks about the portability prices, that | :33:05. | :33:07. | |
you think there's any part played in that by the 200% increase in house | :33:08. | :33:14. | |
prices between 1997 and 2008 that as a result of a woefully badly | :33:15. | :33:18. | |
regulated mortgage sector? Yes, I think as the honourable | :33:19. | :33:23. | |
gentleman will know, we produced many, many, over 1 million more | :33:24. | :33:27. | |
homeowners in the time of the Labour government. What this bill shows is | :33:28. | :33:34. | |
that the country has no long-term housing plan for the country. I will | :33:35. | :33:38. | |
give way. I am grateful for giving way. Would | :33:39. | :33:42. | |
she accept that the reason the private rents are increasingly hired | :33:43. | :33:44. | |
because we haven't built enough homes? | :33:45. | :33:49. | |
Precisely, and the question is, will this bill deliver it, and we don't | :33:50. | :33:55. | |
think it will. Faced with this bad bill, a ridiculous timetable and | :33:56. | :33:59. | |
long sittings, the other place has not only done a excellent job | :34:00. | :34:02. | |
scrutinising the bill, but also improved it, to make it slightly | :34:03. | :34:08. | |
more palatable. If only the government had had the grace to | :34:09. | :34:11. | |
accept changes with regard to starter homes, paid to stay, and | :34:12. | :34:16. | |
sale of council housing that they are resisting today, it could have | :34:17. | :34:22. | |
been improved further. Turning to the specific amendments, I want to | :34:23. | :34:26. | |
deal with those the government is voting against first. With regard to | :34:27. | :34:30. | |
Lords Amendment one, we do agree with the principle of the Lord Best | :34:31. | :34:37. | |
amendment, and think it is important that it starter homes are resold | :34:38. | :34:40. | |
within a given period, a payback of this kind should occur. We accept | :34:41. | :34:45. | |
that the government have brought forward a compromise which appears | :34:46. | :34:49. | |
to do this to a degree, although we would still have a preference for | :34:50. | :34:52. | |
the discount to remain in perpetuity, as this is a better use | :34:53. | :35:01. | |
of scarce public resources. Moving on to Amendment 9, tabled by Lord | :35:02. | :35:08. | |
speech, Carsley and Canada, it is quite reasonable in asking that an | :35:09. | :35:14. | |
English planning authority may grant planning permission for a | :35:15. | :35:17. | |
residential development, having had regard to the provision of starter | :35:18. | :35:20. | |
homes based on its own assessment of local housing need and viability. | :35:21. | :35:27. | |
The minister will know that one of the greatest concerns about the | :35:28. | :35:30. | |
starter homes initiative, and there are many, is that they will be | :35:31. | :35:35. | |
imposed and specified numbers required by central big cat from | :35:36. | :35:39. | |
government, regardless of whether they are needed in the quantities | :35:40. | :35:45. | |
needed. -- central diktats. I will give way in just a moment. Amendment | :35:46. | :35:50. | |
9 is a very local list one, and seeks to give a role to local | :35:51. | :35:55. | |
authorities in assessing the need for starter homes and their impact | :35:56. | :35:58. | |
on the viability of local development. I give way. C says she | :35:59. | :36:04. | |
is concerned with the government big dating the number of starter homes | :36:05. | :36:10. | |
that will be built in any area. -- dictating. Gucci name any area in | :36:11. | :36:13. | |
this country where she believes the homes sold to 20% discount on not | :36:14. | :36:18. | |
being sold by buyers? The honourable gentleman makes a | :36:19. | :36:24. | |
reasonable point, but the point that I am making is not only that starter | :36:25. | :36:29. | |
homes will be needed, but other types of homes, particularly homes | :36:30. | :36:35. | |
for social rents, which is why it should be, the numbers should be | :36:36. | :36:40. | |
subject to local determination and not central diktats. I will give way | :36:41. | :36:44. | |
in just a moment. I want to make regress. To everyone except the | :36:45. | :36:48. | |
government, it appears eminently sensible that the need for starter | :36:49. | :36:52. | |
homes is assessed locally and then delivered, rather than ordered from | :36:53. | :36:56. | |
on high, and most likely to the exclusion of genuinely affordable | :36:57. | :37:00. | |
housing for rent or equity share. The amendment is not a block on | :37:01. | :37:04. | |
starter homes, but a requirement that they are part of a local | :37:05. | :37:11. | |
housing mix. I give way. She needs to concede that there are | :37:12. | :37:14. | |
suspicions on the side of the house that her opposition to starter homes | :37:15. | :37:17. | |
has an ideological opposition. But that aside, she would be in a much | :37:18. | :37:23. | |
stronger position were she to concede that a very significant | :37:24. | :37:27. | |
number of local planning authorities have not brought forward in a timely | :37:28. | :37:30. | |
and appropriate fashion, local district plans, county structure | :37:31. | :37:33. | |
plan is, so the government is forced to take action to tackle the housing | :37:34. | :37:41. | |
prices to which she refers. -- the housing crisis. Thank you, but | :37:42. | :37:43. | |
surely the honourable gentleman must agree that the way of dealing with | :37:44. | :37:49. | |
that is through the local plan making system, and indeed, one | :37:50. | :37:52. | |
amendment we might deal with later on in our discussions this evening | :37:53. | :37:56. | |
is the requirement that is finally being placed on local government by | :37:57. | :38:00. | |
this government to produce a local plant. I give way. | :38:01. | :38:06. | |
I am very grateful. She's making an important point about localism. But | :38:07. | :38:10. | |
isn't it the case that we also need the local authority to determine | :38:11. | :38:15. | |
what is truly affordable for their local housing market? And I notice | :38:16. | :38:19. | |
that the minister wasn't so forthcoming about what his | :38:20. | :38:23. | |
definition of affordability was. He said in reply to our honourable | :38:24. | :38:27. | |
friend from Westminster and Kensington North that these homes in | :38:28. | :38:33. | |
central London won't be sold at ?450,000. What, then, is the point | :38:34. | :38:38. | |
of a cap at that amount? Why not ?150,000? | :38:39. | :38:43. | |
Precisely, and my honourable friend makes a really, really excellent | :38:44. | :38:49. | |
point, and it is why a local test of the need for starter homes is so | :38:50. | :38:55. | |
important. As I was saying, this amendment is not a block on starter | :38:56. | :38:59. | |
homes, but a requirement that they are part of a local housing mix. For | :39:00. | :39:05. | |
that reason, we should be supporting the Lords in this amendment. We also | :39:06. | :39:10. | |
find it odd that the government wants to replace amendments nine and | :39:11. | :39:13. | |
ten with one that relates to rural exam and sites. -- exemptions sites. | :39:14. | :39:20. | |
We support the government having a policy in rural exemption sites, but | :39:21. | :39:23. | |
not at the exclusion of Lords amendments nine and ten. Moving on | :39:24. | :39:29. | |
to the sale of high-value council housing, this is one of the most | :39:30. | :39:30. | |
contentious aspects of the Bill. We do not agree that the sale of | :39:31. | :39:39. | |
higher value council housing should be used to fund the road to buy for | :39:40. | :39:44. | |
housing association tenants. Lords amendment 37, tabled by various | :39:45. | :39:50. | |
Lords, is a very straightforward one that requires a fitting out of | :39:51. | :39:54. | |
details of the calculation and payments to be made by local | :39:55. | :39:59. | |
authorities and for them to be put in instruments and subject to the | :40:00. | :40:03. | |
affirmative procedure in Parliament. So all this amendment is seeking, | :40:04. | :40:09. | |
really, is that information is put before Parliament so we know exactly | :40:10. | :40:12. | |
what is being demanded from the additional tax on local authorities | :40:13. | :40:17. | |
and that we get an opportunity in this House to vote on it. I will | :40:18. | :40:26. | |
give way. I thank her forgiving way, because she makes a very important | :40:27. | :40:31. | |
point. My local authority is set to sell 700 homes over the next three | :40:32. | :40:35. | |
years for is building homes as fast as it can for people to buy. It is | :40:36. | :40:39. | |
not against starter homes to London that is a patron for many. Does she | :40:40. | :40:42. | |
not agree that we really need to get the government to address these | :40:43. | :40:45. | |
particular issues in high-cost areas like mine, which are forcing | :40:46. | :40:50. | |
everybody not just out of ownership but any realistic prospect for | :40:51. | :40:54. | |
living there, even on a good income. She makes an excellent point and I | :40:55. | :40:57. | |
am going to come onto that very issue on a later amendment. So, why | :40:58. | :41:03. | |
does the government not want to provide this information and have | :41:04. | :41:08. | |
this scrutiny? Does this lack of information -- this lack of | :41:09. | :41:10. | |
information is an issue that has been taken up by the committee as | :41:11. | :41:14. | |
well. The Minister will be a winner that it said it is not yet clear how | :41:15. | :41:20. | |
this policy will be funded in practice, or what its financial | :41:21. | :41:23. | |
impacts might be. The Department's intention is for this policy to be | :41:24. | :41:28. | |
fully funded by local authorities but it was unable to provide any | :41:29. | :41:31. | |
figures to demonstrate that this would be the case. More widely, an | :41:32. | :41:38. | |
even bigger risk will fall on those local authorities required to sell | :41:39. | :41:42. | |
housing stock to fund the policy, as those assets will, in effect, be | :41:43. | :41:46. | |
transferred to central government. But the Department did not appear to | :41:47. | :41:49. | |
have a good understanding of the size of those risks. The commitment | :41:50. | :41:54. | |
to replace homes sold under this policy on at least a 1-1 basis will | :41:55. | :42:01. | |
not ensure that these will be like-for-like replacements, as | :42:02. | :42:05. | |
regards size, location or tenure. And experience, as we know, of the | :42:06. | :42:10. | |
reinvigorated Right to Buy for council tenants introduced into a | :42:11. | :42:13. | |
detailed shows that meeting such placement targets can be difficult. | :42:14. | :42:19. | |
-- introduced in 2012. Moreover, replacement forms can be in | :42:20. | :42:21. | |
different areas, a different size and cost more to rent. Neither do | :42:22. | :42:28. | |
they need to be new ones. I will give way. The Minister has said on a | :42:29. | :42:35. | |
number of occasions that the sale of the higher value council properties, | :42:36. | :42:40. | |
as it has now become, will pay for the replacement of that property, | :42:41. | :42:46. | |
the replacement of the right to buy property sold by a housing | :42:47. | :42:50. | |
association and this ?1 billion remedial Brian Field fun. If the | :42:51. | :42:54. | |
Minister has said that, it must imply that he has some figures and | :42:55. | :42:58. | |
working out somewhere on which he has based those assertions. Would it | :42:59. | :43:01. | |
not be helpful if people produce those today? My honourable friend | :43:02. | :43:09. | |
makes an excellent point and if the Minister has those figures, and we | :43:10. | :43:13. | |
will give him an opportunity now to share those figures with us, it | :43:14. | :43:21. | |
would be extremely helpful in terms of us knowing what exactly it is we | :43:22. | :43:25. | |
are going to be voting on this evening. But whilst more information | :43:26. | :43:31. | |
is important, we need to amend ourselves that the whole policy of | :43:32. | :43:35. | |
selling of higher value council housing to fund the right to Buy is | :43:36. | :43:41. | |
considered by almost everyone to be a very bad thing to do. And that | :43:42. | :43:48. | |
replacement is absolutely essential. Lords amendment 47, tabled by | :43:49. | :43:55. | |
Coseley and Kennedy, addresses the issue of replacement and would | :43:56. | :43:59. | |
require the government to enter into an agreement with the local | :44:00. | :44:04. | |
authority under clause 72 am aware by a local authority could show the | :44:05. | :44:07. | |
need for a type of social housing and the Secretary of State would | :44:08. | :44:11. | |
then agree a hold back some, so homes sold could be replaced of the | :44:12. | :44:16. | |
same tenure, type and rent. If the government is not accepting this | :44:17. | :44:22. | |
1-1, like-for-like replacement, as the Minister has suggested earlier, | :44:23. | :44:26. | |
then I think we need a further explanation as to why not. The | :44:27. | :44:30. | |
reason this amendment is so important is that few details, as we | :44:31. | :44:35. | |
have been saying, are in the public domain about how the government will | :44:36. | :44:39. | |
meet its own commitment for a 1-1 or 2-1 replacement in London. It would | :44:40. | :44:44. | |
appear ministers could force the sale of a council house in Camden | :44:45. | :44:48. | |
and can't to other new homes built for open market sale in Croydon as | :44:49. | :44:53. | |
meeting the so-called commitment to replace. For the like-for-like | :44:54. | :45:01. | |
replacement in amendment 47 is a -- is vital to ensure housing need is | :45:02. | :45:06. | |
met across the range and that homes sold for social rent are not simply | :45:07. | :45:13. | |
replaced for starter homes or has that -- homes at higher rents, area | :45:14. | :45:17. | |
you'll risk. Furthermore, figures from Shelter this morning outline a | :45:18. | :45:23. | |
truly alarming picture of the impact of the sale of higher value council | :45:24. | :45:27. | |
homes local authority stock. And I will come to this in a moment or | :45:28. | :45:33. | |
two. I will give way. Would she except that there is also punishes | :45:34. | :45:37. | |
good councils, who try to build social homes? Indeed. I suspect that | :45:38. | :45:43. | |
is part of the government's rationale. So Labour will be | :45:44. | :45:46. | |
supporting the Lords in their amendment 47. Can you give way? I | :45:47. | :45:56. | |
thank the shed and forgiving way. The Minister was talking about | :45:57. | :46:02. | |
amendment 47, that is the importance of the principles of the car in | :46:03. | :46:07. | |
amendment in regards to if you sell social housing, replacing it in the | :46:08. | :46:12. | |
same area. We talked about the starter homes. It would be really | :46:13. | :46:16. | |
great if the Minister could just confirmed that starter homes in my | :46:17. | :46:21. | |
constituency, in Brent, will be no more than ?190,000, because that | :46:22. | :46:25. | |
would change the whole tone of this debate, if the Minister could just | :46:26. | :46:30. | |
confirm that. My honourable friend has given the Minister and | :46:31. | :46:35. | |
opportunity to do so, but I doubt very much whether he will take her | :46:36. | :46:40. | |
up on that offer. Moving on to another pernicious pet of the bill, | :46:41. | :46:44. | |
pay to. As we all know, this is a tax on tenants and a tax on | :46:45. | :46:48. | |
aspiration and will lead to many people having to leave their homes | :46:49. | :46:52. | |
or increase their levels of is now dead. The Minister should have | :46:53. | :46:55. | |
talked to the group of tenants from Hackney and met a few weeks ago. | :46:56. | :46:59. | |
They are not high income families. How could anyone describe a | :47:00. | :47:04. | |
household in London where a couple earn an income of 17,000 and 22,005, | :47:05. | :47:14. | |
or 12000 and 18,000 outside London? I wonder if she could help me | :47:15. | :47:18. | |
understand how members opposite are simultaneously arguing that ?40,000 | :47:19. | :47:24. | |
household income in London is rich, when it comes to social rent, but | :47:25. | :47:28. | |
?77,000 is pure when it comes to getting a 20% discount on starter | :47:29. | :47:34. | |
homes. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I look forward to the | :47:35. | :47:39. | |
Minister and throwing my friend's questionnaire! And yet such people | :47:40. | :47:46. | |
are going to be faced with the situation where even a modest rise | :47:47. | :47:49. | |
in income could result in a significant hike in rent to stop one | :47:50. | :47:53. | |
of the couples we spoke to were a part-time cleaner and a sales | :47:54. | :47:56. | |
associate with a combined income of just over 40,000 pounds. They wanted | :47:57. | :48:00. | |
their children to go to university and I just -- and just cannot know | :48:01. | :48:07. | |
how they will manage that in London as they rent is towards a market | :48:08. | :48:11. | |
one, in their areas seeing the rent increase by 400%. I will give way. | :48:12. | :48:17. | |
Does she agree with the principle at all of means testing tenants in | :48:18. | :48:24. | |
properties that are set aside for people on lower incomes, social | :48:25. | :48:29. | |
rented properties? The honourable gentleman should know, because he | :48:30. | :48:33. | |
sat on the bill committee, that a voluntary scheme is already in place | :48:34. | :48:39. | |
for both local authorities and housing the full seasons to do that | :48:40. | :48:42. | |
very thing. The tenants also objected to their housing being... I | :48:43. | :48:47. | |
will give way under the moment. -- and housing associations to do that | :48:48. | :48:51. | |
very thing. They also objected to their housing being seen as | :48:52. | :48:55. | |
subsidised. As we know from Baroness Williams' corresponds to a written | :48:56. | :48:59. | |
question, local authorities do not receive subsidy from the Exchequer. | :49:00. | :49:03. | |
2011, there was an act that abolished subsidy. In any case, it | :49:04. | :49:10. | |
is there to meet need. The fact that the government is taxing tenants in | :49:11. | :49:15. | |
this way whilst claiming to stand up for hard-working people is | :49:16. | :49:20. | |
outrageous. Would she give way? I will give way to the honourable lady | :49:21. | :49:27. | |
and then the honourable gentleman. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I | :49:28. | :49:32. | |
am deeply concerned that the honourable lady from the opposition | :49:33. | :49:35. | |
front bench cannot seem to agree with those housing charity chief | :49:36. | :49:38. | |
executive who in the evidence session that except the printable | :49:39. | :49:40. | |
that it ought to be used for social housing to go to those most in need. | :49:41. | :49:45. | |
Considering that under amendment one she best argument around scares | :49:46. | :49:51. | |
public resources, I do not understand her possession. Perhaps | :49:52. | :49:56. | |
she could clarify. -- her position. What I would say is that in the name | :49:57. | :50:03. | |
that is how council housing is allocated in this country. It is | :50:04. | :50:08. | |
allocated on the basis of need. I will give way. Would she agree with | :50:09. | :50:16. | |
me that the hard-working families that certainly I see in my surgery, | :50:17. | :50:21. | |
as no doubt she does in house, and indeed members on the opposite side, | :50:22. | :50:25. | |
are going to get nothing from this. The hard-working families, the | :50:26. | :50:28. | |
single mother earning ?17,000 who wants to get out of the dreadful | :50:29. | :50:31. | |
private rented accommodation that she is in, which literally have | :50:32. | :50:35. | |
rodents running around on the floor, she is not going to get anything out | :50:36. | :50:40. | |
of this, is she? The honourable gentleman makes a really good point. | :50:41. | :50:46. | |
She absolutely is not. I have already given way to the honourable | :50:47. | :50:51. | |
lady. Amendment 54 would seek but I will give way in just a moment. I | :50:52. | :50:55. | |
want to make some progress. Amendment 54 with the two limit the | :50:56. | :50:59. | |
damage of pay to stay by making it voluntary for local authorities and | :51:00. | :51:05. | |
would treat them in the same way as housing associations. So I just do | :51:06. | :51:09. | |
not understand the reasoning from the Minister that was given air | :51:10. | :51:14. | |
layer about treating council tenants differently, because all this | :51:15. | :51:17. | |
amendment is asking is the council tenants are treated in exactly the | :51:18. | :51:21. | |
same way as housing association tenants. And again Labour will | :51:22. | :51:24. | |
support the Lords in this amendment. I give way. To bring the lady back | :51:25. | :51:30. | |
to the comment she made earlier about social housing should be | :51:31. | :51:36. | |
allocated on need, the average salary in my constituency is | :51:37. | :51:42. | |
?20,000. There are over 1000 people on the housing waiting list. Would | :51:43. | :51:45. | |
she accept that where people are earning 30,000 that the people who | :51:46. | :51:48. | |
are earning the average salary of 20,000 will feel aggrieved, firstly | :51:49. | :51:52. | |
that they cannot get a social home because it is being occupied by that | :51:53. | :51:56. | |
person and second that they are being tax to effectively subsidised | :51:57. | :52:00. | |
that person living in that house earning significantly more than they | :52:01. | :52:05. | |
can? I would say to the gentleman I do not accept most of that. And what | :52:06. | :52:10. | |
I would say to him is that what we must do is build lots more council | :52:11. | :52:14. | |
houses in this country. Amendment 55 would... | :52:15. | :52:18. | |
SHOUTING Amendment 55 would introduce a taper | :52:19. | :52:24. | |
off 10p on every pound above the minimum income threshold burned by a | :52:25. | :52:29. | |
social tenant. This again is a sensible measure that seeks to | :52:30. | :52:32. | |
ensure tenants to not face a cliff edge whereby small rise in income | :52:33. | :52:38. | |
leads to a huge rent increase. We know the government is planning a | :52:39. | :52:41. | |
higher taper and we heard that from the Minister earlier. I am pleased | :52:42. | :52:48. | |
that he is going to take and keep the taper at the level at which it | :52:49. | :52:54. | |
is set under review and that it is going to be subject to an | :52:55. | :52:57. | |
affirmative procedure. I think we need to look at this very closely | :52:58. | :53:02. | |
indeed. I give way. Thank you. Thank you for giving way. And thank you | :53:03. | :53:06. | |
for responding to my honourable friend before. Could I just please | :53:07. | :53:11. | |
ask the honourable lady to clarify to the House, and remind the House, | :53:12. | :53:15. | |
exactly what the average earnings of an average person in the UK is, and | :53:16. | :53:20. | |
then answer the question is social housing for everybody then or for | :53:21. | :53:24. | |
those in genuine need? Because there is a bit of confusion. Quite right! | :53:25. | :53:29. | |
What she will know is that there are a lot of people in this country, and | :53:30. | :53:33. | |
I am sure many in her constituency, on council waiting lists. And what | :53:34. | :53:37. | |
we should be thinking about in this chamber is how to build more council | :53:38. | :53:45. | |
houses to address that need. If I can move on to Lords amendment 50 | :53:46. | :53:49. | |
seven. It seeks to increase the threshold for pages stay to 50,000 | :53:50. | :53:54. | |
in London and 40,000 outside London. Again, we see the point in this | :53:55. | :53:58. | |
amendment, as it is seeking to limit the damage of this dreadful policy, | :53:59. | :54:04. | |
and the same is the case with Lords amendment 58, which seeks to ensure | :54:05. | :54:08. | |
that the income thresholds are increased by CPI and not at the whim | :54:09. | :54:13. | |
of the Secretary of State. Again, we would not that the government is | :54:14. | :54:15. | |
voting against these amendments and so I think perhaps we could have | :54:16. | :54:18. | |
done with a bit more of an explanation as to the basis on which | :54:19. | :54:24. | |
they intended to increase the thresholds in due course. If I can | :54:25. | :54:30. | |
move on quickly, Madam Deputy Speaker, to the government's | :54:31. | :54:33. | |
amendments. There are too many to comment on, given the time | :54:34. | :54:36. | |
available. Again, highlighting a problem with this bill. So I have | :54:37. | :54:40. | |
on. We are pleased that the on. We are pleased that the | :54:41. | :54:44. | |
government adopted amendments 26-36 tables by Lords Kennedy and Brandon, | :54:45. | :54:46. | |
which enabled information to be which enabled information to be | :54:47. | :54:52. | |
given to third parties when seeking the recovery of abandoned premises | :54:53. | :54:55. | |
and providing a definition of Tennessee above. This is something | :54:56. | :55:00. | |
honourable friend worked hard to ensure were included in the bill. | :55:01. | :55:07. | |
Government amendments 38-43 change the requirements for local | :55:08. | :55:11. | |
authorities to sell-off vacant high-value council housing and | :55:12. | :55:16. | |
replacement with a requirement to sell-off higher value vacant council | :55:17. | :55:22. | |
housing. If selling off high-value housing was bad, selling off higher | :55:23. | :55:30. | |
value housing is much, much worse. While it might help London a little, | :55:31. | :55:34. | |
it will lead to the sell-offs in other areas. As noted earlier, there | :55:35. | :55:38. | |
is simply not enough information available on the impact of this | :55:39. | :55:41. | |
policy or its scope, for Parliament to be boating on it. The analysis | :55:42. | :55:50. | |
finds that in order to raise ?4.5 billion a year needed, each local | :55:51. | :55:55. | |
authority could be asked to raise on average a massive 26 million in | :55:56. | :56:02. | |
total. This corresponds to the sale of 23,503 council homes per year, | :56:03. | :56:09. | |
six times more than what estimated would be sold under the previous | :56:10. | :56:16. | |
high-value regime. Government amendment 56 supports the | :56:17. | :56:22. | |
exemptions from some categories of persons as yet unknown from paid to | :56:23. | :56:28. | |
stay provisions. This is something Labour argued strongly for at the | :56:29. | :56:31. | |
Commons committee stage, but the amendment states that there may be | :56:32. | :56:37. | |
exceptions for higher income tenants in social housing of a specified | :56:38. | :56:41. | |
description. So, is it, and perhaps the minister could tell us, to apply | :56:42. | :56:46. | |
to people aged over 65, people who have a registered as ability, people | :56:47. | :56:53. | |
with seasonal employment contracts, where a household member is in | :56:54. | :56:57. | |
receipt of care? At the moment, we have no idea what the minister is | :56:58. | :57:01. | |
intending, and that is not a satisfactory situation. Government | :57:02. | :57:08. | |
amendments to 15, 217, 218, two to seven, and 233 amendment the | :57:09. | :57:17. | |
proposal. While we ignore it that in 10-year tenancies, and longer, if | :57:18. | :57:20. | |
there is a child in the home, as a step forward, we still think this | :57:21. | :57:25. | |
whole policy is dreadful. Many, many people are commenting, and though it | :57:26. | :57:31. | |
is really important for social housing and council housing in | :57:32. | :57:36. | |
particular, it is important that it has security of tenure and enables | :57:37. | :57:40. | |
communities to be stable and thrive. One only wonder what is going to | :57:41. | :57:43. | |
happen to parents whenever their children reach the age of 19, and | :57:44. | :57:48. | |
what if a young person wants to live at home beyond this date? The whole | :57:49. | :57:53. | |
policy fails to acknowledge that we are talking about people's homes, | :57:54. | :58:00. | |
what the government should be doing is bringing forward proposals to | :58:01. | :58:04. | |
extend security of tenure in the private rented sector rather than | :58:05. | :58:08. | |
reducing it for council housing tenants, with all the social | :58:09. | :58:11. | |
upheaval and personal anxiety that brings with it. Government | :58:12. | :58:17. | |
amendments 90-91 deal with the electrical safety checks, and I am | :58:18. | :58:20. | |
so pleased that the government has been forced by the action we took in | :58:21. | :58:25. | |
the Commons and by their Lordships to adopt this amendment, that would | :58:26. | :58:29. | |
put the duty and private landlords to ensure electrical safety | :58:30. | :58:36. | |
standards are met. And that they are carried out with a reasonable | :58:37. | :58:39. | |
frequency, and by people of the proper expertise. And we know, and I | :58:40. | :58:47. | |
think we should thank again, the Baroness and others were tabling | :58:48. | :58:49. | |
theirs and arguing for it in the Lords. -- for tabling this. Finally, | :58:50. | :58:56. | |
I am pleased that their Lordships insisted that the regulations we are | :58:57. | :58:58. | |
still to receive, and there are many, that would set much of the | :58:59. | :59:04. | |
detail of this will, must in the main follow the affirmative | :59:05. | :59:11. | |
procedure. This includes banning order offences, terminations and | :59:12. | :59:14. | |
regulations relating to vagrant higher value housing, high income | :59:15. | :59:17. | |
social tenants, electrical safety, client money protection, and many | :59:18. | :59:24. | |
others. I want to thank them for doing this and ensuring that the | :59:25. | :59:28. | |
nasty habit the government has adopted in putting through important | :59:29. | :59:33. | |
regulations by elective procedure ceases. As the whole housing world | :59:34. | :59:37. | |
has acknowledged, this build is little to solve our housing crisis, | :59:38. | :59:41. | |
but will make things a whole lot worse for the supply of genuinely | :59:42. | :59:46. | |
affordable housing. -- this bill does little. It is causing headaches | :59:47. | :59:51. | |
for the Prime Minister, but I'm sure he will be pleased to know that he | :59:52. | :59:55. | |
won't need a junior doctor to cure his headache. All he needs to do is | :59:56. | :00:01. | |
drop this dreadful bill. CHEERING | :00:02. | :00:06. | |
Thank you. I draw members attention to my entry | :00:07. | :00:15. | |
in the register of interests. I am pleased to speak in this debate to | :00:16. | :00:20. | |
support the bill, which other members, who were all members in | :00:21. | :00:25. | |
committee stage, and the passions raised then and now are testament to | :00:26. | :00:29. | |
the fact that we know in this country, we need to build more | :00:30. | :00:31. | |
homes, there are many of our constituents who want to get on the | :00:32. | :00:35. | |
housing ladder, and this build is great service to that cause. There | :00:36. | :00:40. | |
is no doubt that house-building took a hit following the recession, which | :00:41. | :00:45. | |
began in 2008, but I am pleased to note that as our committee stages | :00:46. | :00:48. | |
were winding up in December of last year, house-building completions | :00:49. | :00:53. | |
were at the highest level since 2008, with 143,000 in the calendar | :00:54. | :00:59. | |
year. This is to be applauded, but there are still that matter there is | :01:00. | :01:06. | |
still a lot more work to be done. And to fulfil the aspirations of the | :01:07. | :01:10. | |
86% of our fellow Britons who wants to own their own home. Starter homes | :01:11. | :01:16. | |
aren't essential part of that offering, to allow people -- are an | :01:17. | :01:21. | |
essential part of that offering, to allow people to own their homes | :01:22. | :01:26. | |
rather than renting forever. I will give way. | :01:27. | :01:31. | |
Thank you. Most was on the side would agree that a starter home for | :01:32. | :01:34. | |
a family starting out as a great thing. She therefore not regret that | :01:35. | :01:37. | |
the last eight years, and this The Mayor of London, we have seen | :01:38. | :01:43. | |
private sale at inflated prices, luxury homes sold to overseas | :01:44. | :01:46. | |
developers, and nowhere within reach of local people in my constituency | :01:47. | :01:50. | |
or across London? I have great respect for the | :01:51. | :01:53. | |
honourable lady and the respect that would work she does her committee, | :01:54. | :01:57. | |
but I would say, with respect to the other side, which my honourable | :01:58. | :02:01. | |
friend for Rossendale said, this is not a debate just about London, and | :02:02. | :02:06. | |
a lot of the debate in committee stages and when we have seen it in | :02:07. | :02:11. | |
the chamber is about London. There are a lot of affordable houses, and | :02:12. | :02:14. | |
I know there are many others in London, would I know there are | :02:15. | :02:17. | |
another 590 MPs who represent areas outside of London. I will give way. | :02:18. | :02:26. | |
I thank my honourable friend. It was a great pleasure to serve with her | :02:27. | :02:28. | |
on the housing and planning committee. But she touches on an | :02:29. | :02:32. | |
interesting point. Does she agree with me that, if you take London and | :02:33. | :02:39. | |
most of the south-east out, that none of our witnesses were able to | :02:40. | :02:46. | |
definitively demonstrate that starter homes with the right | :02:47. | :02:49. | |
vehicles, such as Help to Buy, were going to be unaffordable? For the | :02:50. | :02:56. | |
vast majority of England, they were affordable. | :02:57. | :02:58. | |
I thank the honourable gentleman. Thinking back to those happy days in | :02:59. | :03:02. | |
November and December that week spent together, although the | :03:03. | :03:05. | |
committee stages were now unalloyed joy, I will just finish responding | :03:06. | :03:11. | |
to my honourable friend. With the right vehicles, such as the Help to | :03:12. | :03:15. | |
Buy Iser, and the shared ownership, starter homes are affordable for | :03:16. | :03:19. | |
many, many areas, including developments I have visited in my | :03:20. | :03:26. | |
own constituency of South Ribble. They are an affordable way, I think, | :03:27. | :03:32. | |
particularly for the generation between 20 and 40 which has been | :03:33. | :03:35. | |
disproportionately affected by the increase of house prices. It is a | :03:36. | :03:40. | |
way for them to get on the property ladder, and I think we should all | :03:41. | :03:44. | |
really welcome this commitment to build these 200,000 homes. I will | :03:45. | :03:47. | |
give way. I thank her for giving way. I am a | :03:48. | :03:55. | |
London MP, and it might be difficult for other members who are not London | :03:56. | :04:01. | |
MPs to understand how difficult it is, and how unaffordable it is, to | :04:02. | :04:04. | |
live in London, and that is why we have made the points we have made. | :04:05. | :04:10. | |
It may be of interest that, on Thursday, Londoners will be voting, | :04:11. | :04:14. | |
almost on a referendum of the housing crisis in London. | :04:15. | :04:21. | |
I thank the honourable lady for her comments, and I think I will let the | :04:22. | :04:26. | |
London MPs respond more fully to the particular London voices. | :04:27. | :04:32. | |
I am going to make a little bit of progress, because otherwise I am up | :04:33. | :04:36. | |
and down like a fiddle's elbow. I would like quickly to turn to the | :04:37. | :04:41. | |
amendments made by the noble Lord. Amendment 1, in relation to the 20% | :04:42. | :04:47. | |
discount. I don't think that a 20% discount over 20 years really takes | :04:48. | :04:52. | |
account of the practicalities of people's lives. It is just far too | :04:53. | :04:57. | |
long. If it is a starter home, one would hope that people are not going | :04:58. | :05:01. | |
to therefore live in it for 20 years, and as the minister said, the | :05:02. | :05:05. | |
average time people live in a house is seven years, not 20. So it places | :05:06. | :05:13. | |
restrictions on starter home owners, and that is precisely the generation | :05:14. | :05:17. | |
of people aged 20-40 that this bill is aiming to empower. I am very glad | :05:18. | :05:24. | |
that the government is consulting on the duration of the discount of the | :05:25. | :05:28. | |
paper, because if we want builders to build, and if we want lenders to | :05:29. | :05:34. | |
lend, there needs to be a practical, not an ideological, approach. The | :05:35. | :05:38. | |
policy has to work. I would also like to touch on the Lords | :05:39. | :05:45. | |
amendments 9-10, which remove the power for this to be a national | :05:46. | :05:50. | |
requirement and replace it with a locum set requirements -- locally | :05:51. | :05:55. | |
set requirement depending on local needs. I would say this completely | :05:56. | :05:59. | |
undermines our manifesto commitment to build these 200,000 homes, and | :06:00. | :06:04. | |
has the right honourable gentleman, the member for one thing, who is no | :06:05. | :06:08. | |
longer in his place, mentioned, this is a very, very popular policy. We | :06:09. | :06:14. | |
do have constituents coming to us, saying, I want to have a starter | :06:15. | :06:17. | |
home. How will I get my foot on the ladder? If we were to remove it, I | :06:18. | :06:21. | |
fear we were just remove the process. I will happily give way. | :06:22. | :06:26. | |
I'm grateful to her for giving way, but in an earlier statement, of | :06:27. | :06:30. | |
course, she actually made the case for a more localised approach, | :06:31. | :06:33. | |
because she said she was not a London member, that the | :06:34. | :06:37. | |
circumstances in her constituency were very different to those in the | :06:38. | :06:42. | |
capital. Well, surely, if there are different circumstances in different | :06:43. | :06:44. | |
parts of the country, we need a local approach. | :06:45. | :06:49. | |
What I would say to the honourable gentleman, for whom I have the | :06:50. | :06:56. | |
greatest respect, is that, if we did this, it would completely delay the | :06:57. | :07:00. | |
process. We would get a 2019 without a starter home having been built | :07:01. | :07:04. | |
will stop I really fear for that. The Lords amendments would really | :07:05. | :07:06. | |
slow this down, and we need to start building now. We know house prices | :07:07. | :07:13. | |
have risen. They have risen exponentially, and particularly in | :07:14. | :07:16. | |
London, but because of a lack of supply, it is a very complicated | :07:17. | :07:20. | |
picture, and one could not say it is for one particular reason. But lack | :07:21. | :07:25. | |
of supply is a real fundamental lock on that, and we have touched on it | :07:26. | :07:28. | |
all the way through committee stages. We need to get more houses | :07:29. | :07:33. | |
built, and quickly. There is much debating committee about permission | :07:34. | :07:36. | |
in principle, which is this new consent model Lanning, and I would | :07:37. | :07:44. | |
argue very much that this provides certainty, and... I am afraid I am | :07:45. | :07:47. | |
going to make a little more progress. Developers and builders | :07:48. | :07:52. | |
may want certainty, and they want speed. One of the breaks and | :07:53. | :07:58. | |
development is a lack of certainty, and the slowness of certain planning | :07:59. | :08:02. | |
departments. The whole essence of this bill is to get the country | :08:03. | :08:06. | |
building homes, to increase the supply, and to get more people as | :08:07. | :08:12. | |
homeowners. This is a particularly effective measure for small | :08:13. | :08:16. | |
builders, because they don't have the scale to have in-house fund | :08:17. | :08:23. | |
departments. So to encourage builders who might be building ten | :08:24. | :08:26. | |
or 20 homes in a village, that is particularly effective. | :08:27. | :08:33. | |
Small builders, who actually get on and build or deliver, whereas the | :08:34. | :08:36. | |
large builders are often very slow and building, so anything we do to | :08:37. | :08:39. | |
support the small builders and small site, will actually see an | :08:40. | :08:42. | |
improvement in housing supply. I agree with my honourable friend, | :08:43. | :08:46. | |
and I think that with small builders, the way that they are | :08:47. | :08:49. | |
funded and the way that they are run, they are not land banking in | :08:50. | :08:52. | |
the same way. Their approach is that they want to build homes and move, | :08:53. | :08:56. | |
whereas when you get the larger multiples, they have a different | :08:57. | :08:59. | |
approach because they are actually land investors as well as builders, | :09:00. | :09:03. | |
and what we want to do is get homes built. That is the whole essence, | :09:04. | :09:08. | |
and I think that is a very much a cross-party consensus, that we need | :09:09. | :09:09. | |
more units built. I do welcome the amendments which | :09:10. | :09:17. | |
were brought in the other place which exclude winning and working | :09:18. | :09:25. | |
with minerals, which covers fracking, where companies have made | :09:26. | :09:31. | |
initial exploratory attempt, this will give reassurance to some of my | :09:32. | :09:35. | |
constituents. We need to build more homes. This bill will provide some | :09:36. | :09:43. | |
hope, and hopefully some homes for the hundreds of our constituents who | :09:44. | :09:55. | |
aspire to own a home of their own. The most astounding thing about the | :09:56. | :09:59. | |
government's proposals is that we are expected to be here today making | :10:00. | :10:04. | |
decisions about them, without having any idea of what the costings of | :10:05. | :10:09. | |
them is going to be. The Minister, when he came to the select | :10:10. | :10:13. | |
Committee, said that the government would produce costings in due | :10:14. | :10:15. | |
course. I think he actually said the spring was the likely time. Well, we | :10:16. | :10:19. | |
are here in the spring and I have not seen any figures yet. But it is | :10:20. | :10:25. | |
absolutely astounding that we should be hearing from the government over | :10:26. | :10:32. | |
and over again that the sale of no higher value council homes will pay | :10:33. | :10:39. | |
for the replacement of that home, for the replacement of a housing | :10:40. | :10:43. | |
association property sold and for remedial work, a ?1 billion fund, | :10:44. | :10:53. | |
for Nato land. If the government are clear that this is what their | :10:54. | :10:55. | |
policies are going to do, will be please show us the figures? -- for | :10:56. | :11:04. | |
they must have the figures to make those promises on, or I've suddenly | :11:05. | :11:09. | |
giving their belief that this is how it will work out without any clear | :11:10. | :11:14. | |
evidence to support it? It really is a matter of great concern. I will | :11:15. | :11:19. | |
make some personal comments just in a moment. The selection as you said, | :11:20. | :11:24. | |
absolutely correctly, having heard the evidence, we have not seen | :11:25. | :11:28. | |
evidence that the government has the proposals and we call on it to do so | :11:29. | :11:32. | |
as a matter of urgency. That was agreed at the beginning of February. | :11:33. | :11:37. | |
We are now three months further on. We still have not got any figures. | :11:38. | :11:40. | |
It is exactly the same point that was made in the PAC report, as to | :11:41. | :11:47. | |
whether they should do things before or after policies or emblem entered, | :11:48. | :11:54. | |
the Department should publish a full and back assessment containing | :11:55. | :11:58. | |
analysis and Lane with the guidance of the Green book. When are we going | :11:59. | :12:05. | |
to see these figures? We have not got them for the bill. Will we have | :12:06. | :12:08. | |
them before any secondary legislation, any delegated the | :12:09. | :12:12. | |
decision, comes before the House for approval? Did he just make a firm | :12:13. | :12:16. | |
promise that is what is going to be the case? He made reference to some | :12:17. | :12:23. | |
further secondary legislation on the high value council homes, so we | :12:24. | :12:26. | |
actually going to see all of these proposals thoroughly and properly | :12:27. | :12:30. | |
costed out before we come to that point? It is a very serious matter | :12:31. | :12:34. | |
about the rate of the size to have that information before it passes | :12:35. | :12:38. | |
legislation. -- the right of this House. To just come on to the issue | :12:39. | :12:42. | |
of starter homes. I have to say again, it has been a little | :12:43. | :12:46. | |
confusing to understand how the government's policy will work out in | :12:47. | :12:50. | |
practice. When the Minister came before the Select Committee, he said | :12:51. | :12:56. | |
that there would of course be discretion for local authorities | :12:57. | :12:58. | |
when they were meeting with developers and discussing 106 | :12:59. | :13:00. | |
agreement and what was going to be built in terms of affordable housing | :13:01. | :13:03. | |
and what that affordable housing would be. Can we just have some | :13:04. | :13:09. | |
clarity? Is that the starter homes that are going to take absolute | :13:10. | :13:11. | |
priority and local authorities will not have any choice but in order to | :13:12. | :13:15. | |
hit the 200,000 target the government have got for starter | :13:16. | :13:17. | |
homes they will have to build starter homes as a priority and it | :13:18. | :13:21. | |
is -- if there is a little bit left when you might put one or two | :13:22. | :13:25. | |
affordable homes for rent on the site? Or will a local authority, as | :13:26. | :13:30. | |
there are currently allowed to do, come to the on the about 16 | :13:31. | :13:32. | |
agreements, but what is right in terms of the of affordable homes, | :13:33. | :13:36. | |
whether it be starter homes abound of affordable homes or shared | :13:37. | :13:40. | |
ownership or homes to rent as part of a mix? What is going to be the | :13:41. | :13:46. | |
case? Weirder regatta to with errors of land in my constituency where | :13:47. | :13:50. | |
there is no requirement for any affordable housing at present | :13:51. | :13:52. | |
because the site are not considered to be viable. By ability an | :13:53. | :13:57. | |
important test under the MP PF guidelines that local authorities | :13:58. | :13:59. | |
have to work too. As the government going to insist that starter homes | :14:00. | :14:06. | |
are built on a site or it is not considered currently viable to have | :14:07. | :14:08. | |
any one of six provision for affordable housing question how will | :14:09. | :14:10. | |
that work will it be local discretion regards to that as well | :14:11. | :14:13. | |
question I do think we did some clarity, just as I think we need | :14:14. | :14:18. | |
clarity about the replacement of the higher value council homes, | :14:19. | :14:21. | |
precisely what sort of homes there are be replaced with. How that is | :14:22. | :14:25. | |
good to be defined to stop what the negotiations are going to look like | :14:26. | :14:28. | |
in terms of process between government and local authorities. | :14:29. | :14:32. | |
And again, is it going to be starter homes or cost or only going to be in | :14:33. | :14:37. | |
a position where affordable homes to rent can actually be part of that | :14:38. | :14:41. | |
replacement? Back to the like-for-like situation. In the end, | :14:42. | :14:44. | |
the chartered insert of rising protest evidence to the select | :14:45. | :14:46. | |
committee were they said that their estimate was during the course of | :14:47. | :14:51. | |
this Parliament they be 300,000 fewer social homes to rent in this | :14:52. | :14:54. | |
country than there were at the beginning. The Minister likes to | :14:55. | :14:59. | |
take great credit for the last Government, the Coalition | :15:00. | :15:01. | |
government, having built my council houses that were built during the | :15:02. | :15:05. | |
Labour Government. But, in the end, let's get back to the point. Is it | :15:06. | :15:09. | |
going to be in this Parliament that there are fewer social homes to | :15:10. | :15:13. | |
rent, not just council homes but housing association properties as | :15:14. | :15:16. | |
well, 300,000 fewer that the chartered Institute of Housing of | :15:17. | :15:20. | |
estimate of You can keep up to date with the latest news and weather | :15:21. | :15:22. | |
throughout the day via our Twitter feed if the government disagrees | :15:23. | :15:25. | |
with that figure, will it beat what it expects... -- housing estimate | :15:26. | :15:31. | |
and if the government disagrees... Spee, you will agree the -- remedy | :15:32. | :15:37. | |
evidence, that under the duty of these proposals housing associations | :15:38. | :15:39. | |
would be building more properties of all tenants. | :15:40. | :15:44. | |
We had evidence from different housing associations about how they | :15:45. | :15:47. | |
were going to respond to the proposals. Some made it very clear | :15:48. | :15:53. | |
that they felt that they would actually came less properties under | :15:54. | :15:58. | |
106 agreement to rent than they would under the previous legislative | :15:59. | :16:04. | |
arrangements. They also made it clear to us that given the fact that | :16:05. | :16:11. | |
there is now no money in the government's housing programme for | :16:12. | :16:14. | |
the rest of this Parliament, for any houses to rent in terms of grand | :16:15. | :16:20. | |
assistance, all of the resources, the ?8 billion, is going to either | :16:21. | :16:24. | |
to starter homes are shared ownership, that they, I think, many | :16:25. | :16:27. | |
associations believe they are building your homes to rent on an | :16:28. | :16:32. | |
affordable basis because of the combined effects of policy as a | :16:33. | :16:37. | |
whole. And it will very from association to association. -- it | :16:38. | :16:44. | |
will change. We heard from edge of executive of South Yorkshire | :16:45. | :16:48. | |
Housing, where he said that in much of the area where his association | :16:49. | :16:51. | |
works, it would not be possible to build back with the money from the | :16:52. | :16:59. | |
sale of Housing Association property and what was likely is that they | :17:00. | :17:03. | |
would buy up another property in the private rented sector, and that | :17:04. | :17:06. | |
could happen is, which would not add to the housing stock. It is going to | :17:07. | :17:09. | |
be very different policies in different areas. I would argue very | :17:10. | :17:13. | |
strongly that in terms of starter homes we should reflect that in | :17:14. | :17:16. | |
terms of allowing local authorities the ability to come to a different | :17:17. | :17:20. | |
agreement which is at local needs. Indeed, that is what is recognised, | :17:21. | :17:25. | |
the Select Committee said very clearly that starter homes should | :17:26. | :17:28. | |
not be built at the expense of other forms of homes and indeed it is | :17:29. | :17:34. | |
vital that homes for affordable rent are built to reflect local needs. | :17:35. | :17:39. | |
Thank you for giving way on that point. Do you share my concern that | :17:40. | :17:45. | |
research commissioned by the LGA highlights for people in need of | :17:46. | :17:49. | |
affordable housing in 220 local authority areas they will not be | :17:50. | :17:54. | |
able to take advantage of the starter homes being proposed. I | :17:55. | :17:57. | |
think it is also very interesting that my honourable friend mentions | :17:58. | :18:05. | |
the LGA. All parties in the LGA actually I do very strongly that the | :18:06. | :18:11. | |
whole of this policy, in terms of the right to Buy for housing | :18:12. | :18:14. | |
association tenants, should not be funded by the sale of local | :18:15. | :18:18. | |
authority assets. Indeed, and I am going to make sure I get the words | :18:19. | :18:22. | |
right when I called back to the honourable member, the member of the | :18:23. | :18:28. | |
Select Committee, I think what we said that public policy should | :18:29. | :18:31. | |
usually be funded by central government, rather than through a | :18:32. | :18:34. | |
levy on local authorities. I think I got the words precisely right and it | :18:35. | :18:36. | |
is one of these usual cases or perhaps government ought to listen | :18:37. | :18:40. | |
to the words of the Select Committee! I think the whole issue | :18:41. | :18:46. | |
of the sale of the right to Buy for housing association tenants would | :18:47. | :18:48. | |
not be a significant point of contention if the government were | :18:49. | :18:53. | |
not forcing the sea local authority homes to actually pay for it and we | :18:54. | :18:58. | |
still have not had the figures to show how that would work. Sorting | :18:59. | :19:02. | |
out both legs ability on starter homes, and I still do not quite know | :19:03. | :19:06. | |
what the government's policy amounts to, because of the lack of clarity | :19:07. | :19:09. | |
we have had. Could I just finally raised the two issues which I think | :19:10. | :19:13. | |
I really worrying, and this is very Select Committee did not come if you | :19:14. | :19:17. | |
about letting tenancies. And also about pay estate. We welcome that | :19:18. | :19:22. | |
Peter stay will be voluntary for housing associations. -- here to | :19:23. | :19:27. | |
strange in a street or you have got strange in a street or you have got | :19:28. | :19:30. | |
two tenants earning the same amount of money currently paying similar | :19:31. | :19:34. | |
rents, one in a Housing Association property and one in a council | :19:35. | :19:36. | |
property and one finds the rent going up under the other does not? | :19:37. | :19:42. | |
They talk about subsidised council housing, just let's get away from | :19:43. | :19:45. | |
this. There is no central government subsidy to housing revenue accounts! | :19:46. | :19:52. | |
Pays for itself. Is not a subsidy council tenants burning a little bit | :19:53. | :19:57. | |
more than their neighbours next door. What they will be, if this | :19:58. | :20:01. | |
measure so, is a tax on those tenants. The money will not go to | :20:02. | :20:06. | |
the council, it will go to the Treasury. Treasury levying a charge | :20:07. | :20:12. | |
on a council tenant is a tax, by any other name. Of course that is what | :20:13. | :20:17. | |
is it. And let's put it with the left engine and see. -- the lifetime | :20:18. | :20:24. | |
tenancy. We really going to end up with council estates were some homes | :20:25. | :20:26. | |
will have been sold but different proportions different areas, some | :20:27. | :20:30. | |
will then have been sold under the private rented sector, where we have | :20:31. | :20:34. | |
an increasing mixture of people on the lowest income and people there | :20:35. | :20:41. | |
are simply on a short-term basis? You're going to want to be shot, | :20:42. | :20:44. | |
because you are going to force the rents up. People on slightly higher | :20:45. | :20:50. | |
incomes, who may have a long-time commitment to that area, you may | :20:51. | :20:55. | |
have written the area, who maybe the people who run the local housing | :20:56. | :21:00. | |
association, local residents group and be really active there, and of | :21:01. | :21:04. | |
course the very same people will be the longer term tenants who have a | :21:05. | :21:08. | |
long-term commitment in their area. What does this policy, and the | :21:09. | :21:12. | |
mixture of these policies, do for social cohesion? What does it do? It | :21:13. | :21:17. | |
really undermines the whole idea of a long-term commitment by people who | :21:18. | :21:24. | |
are to dinner areas, who want to stay there, because they enjoy | :21:25. | :21:29. | |
living there because they have got connections. -- who are rooted to | :21:30. | :21:32. | |
the areas. There are kids go to school there and that is where the | :21:33. | :21:36. | |
homeless. To take that away... I am so grateful for him giving way on | :21:37. | :21:41. | |
that billion point. Would he agree with some commentators that | :21:42. | :21:47. | |
certainly see in London this bill, and this is very dramatic but very | :21:48. | :21:53. | |
serious, marks the end of next communities in a number of | :21:54. | :21:58. | |
borrowers? Potentially it does. Because of the drive out all the | :21:59. | :22:01. | |
people on slightly higher incomes, and also it removes people | :22:02. | :22:06. | |
potentially who are longer term tenants, it does create a very | :22:07. | :22:09. | |
different sort of community. We have to be very careful that. I will give | :22:10. | :22:13. | |
way and then will conclude after I have given way. I thank him for | :22:14. | :22:18. | |
giving way. While have said that of the points he is making, does he not | :22:19. | :22:22. | |
accept the principle that when it comes to a skiers social resource | :22:23. | :22:25. | |
like social housing, it is simply common sense to make sure that | :22:26. | :22:33. | |
skiers resource if targeted at those who are most in need, which is what | :22:34. | :22:37. | |
this bill seeks to do? I would argue let's tackle the | :22:38. | :22:44. | |
scarcity. Let's start a building programme of 100,000 social homes | :22:45. | :22:47. | |
per year. That is the only way we are going to hit the 230,000 homes | :22:48. | :22:51. | |
this country needs. We never built a quarter of a million homes in this | :22:52. | :22:55. | |
country without a massive social with building programme and it is | :22:56. | :22:58. | |
unlikely we will do so in the future. I will make one other point | :22:59. | :23:02. | |
about the mix of communities. In other communities, where there is | :23:03. | :23:05. | |
the very beginning a limited number of social rented properties, with | :23:06. | :23:10. | |
the Right to Buy that has already happened and the extension of the | :23:11. | :23:15. | |
Right to Buy proposed here, it is going to be exactly the same | :23:16. | :23:20. | |
committees which have these "Higher value" council homes. Not only will | :23:21. | :23:23. | |
be Right to Buy remove social housing in those areas, but the sale | :23:24. | :23:30. | |
of fake and higher value council properties or remove social housing | :23:31. | :23:33. | |
as well. It is likely there will be some communities where in future | :23:34. | :23:38. | |
they will be no social housing. -- the sale of higher value council | :23:39. | :23:43. | |
properties. That is the other conclusion to come to hear. It is | :23:44. | :23:47. | |
really very worryingly indeed. -- very worrying indeed. Some | :23:48. | :23:53. | |
communities where people are on very short-term tenancies and learning | :23:54. | :23:56. | |
from other communities or if you actually got a real housing need but | :23:57. | :23:59. | |
you cannot afford to buy, there will be normal for at all. -- no home for | :24:00. | :24:04. | |
you at all. Hello and welcome to Tuesday | :24:05. | :23:11. | |
in Parliament, our look at the best of the day in the Commons | :23:12. | :23:14. | |
and the Lords. | :23:15. | :23:18. |