03/05/2016 House of Commons


03/05/2016

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by the insolvent is -- insolvency service. We must move on. Urgent

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question, Joe Cox. To make a statement on the situation in

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Aleppo, Syria. Tobias Ellwood. The Syrian conflict

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has entered its sixth year. As a result of Assad's brutality and the

:00:33.:00:34.

terror of Daesh. It is estimated 400,000

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people may have been killed directly by the conflict. Our long-term goal

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is for Syria to become a stable, peaceful state with an inclusive

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government capable of protecting their people from Daesh and other

:00:59.:01:04.

extremists. When that happens civility can be returned to the

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region, which is necessary to stem the flow of people fleeing Syria and

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seeking refuge in Europe. We have been working hard to find a

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political solution to the conflict. There have been three rounds of UN

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facilitated peace negotiations in Geneva this year. In February, March

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and April. The latest round concluded on the 27th of April

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without significant progress on the vital issue of political transition.

:01:36.:01:40.

We have always been clear that negotiations will only make progress

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if the cessation of hostilities is respected, full humanitarian access

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is granted and if both sides are prepared to discuss political

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transition. The escalating violence of the last two weeks, especially

:01:55.:02:01.

around Aleppo, has been an appalling breach of the cessation of

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hostilities agreement. On the 27th of April, Els puddle in Aleppo city

:02:05.:02:15.

was bombed, killing civilians, -- a hospital in Aleppo was bombed

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killing civilians. More than 12 hospitals have been closed because

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of air strikes, leaving only a few operating. The humanitarian

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situation is desperate. According to Tim and rights monitors at least 252

:02:30.:02:34.

civilians including 49 Jordan have been killed in the city in the last

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fortnight alone. At midnight on Friday, following international

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double attic efforts between the US and Russia, a renewed cessation came

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into effect in Latakia and eastern Ghouta. We understand it remains

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shaky in eastern Qatar. -- Ghouta. We have received reports

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violence has continued this morning and we need swift action to stop the

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fighting. Our Right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary is

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speaking to secretary John Kerry today to discuss how we can preserve

:03:30.:03:34.

the cessation of hostilities. We'll look to Russia, with its unique

:03:35.:03:40.

influence over the government, to make sure the cessation of

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hostilities does not break down. It set itself up as the protector of

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Assad government and has put pressure on them to enter these

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attacks. This is crucial if negotiations are to be resumed in

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Geneva. These negotiations must deliver a political transition away

:04:03.:04:09.

from President Assad to a government which can support the needs and

:04:10.:04:12.

aspirations of all Syrians and put an end to the suffering of the

:04:13.:04:17.

Syrian people. We also need to inject further momentum into

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political talks and we therefore support the UN envoy's called for

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an... A meeting to facilitate a return to a process leading to a

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political transition in Syria. We hope this can take place in the next

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coming weeks. The UK is working strenuously to make that happen and

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we will continue to do so. I have to say once again that it is a shame

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the Secretary of State cannot be here personally for an important

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discussion on this matter and I hope it will be noted. On current trends

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without international action at the end of this short debate and other

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two Syrian civilians will be dead and four will be badly injured. On

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Friday, desperate doctors in Aleppo appealed for international help to

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stave off further massacres and the potential besiege mint of the city,

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fearing a repeat of the horrors of Srebrenica. Does he agree it is the

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Syrian for it is primarily responsible for these horrific

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ongoing abuses continuing their long-standing policy of targeting

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civilians in rebel held areas. Does the Minister also agree we urgently

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now need a mechanism with clear consequences to deter further

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barbaric attacks on civilians? I have raised repeatedly inverse plays

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the need for a noble warming zone. Will you look again at this now.

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What is the UK also doing to work with all those of influence other

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parties in this conflict including Saudi Arabia, Turkey and Russia and

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Iran to put pressure on all sides to stop attacks on civilian targets

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including hospitals. Does the Minister has evidence that Russian

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forces have been directly involved in the latest air strikes and if

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they work does he not agree that this is surely time to look at fresh

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sanctions against Russia? Is it not time to look at air drops for

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besiege communities? Why can't we join forces with our European allies

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to get food to starving people? Wouldn't have the active air drops

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put the regime under pressure to grandma traditional and reliable

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land access. Is his department involved in the collection of

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evidence to enable eventual war crimes trials as we did during the

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Balkans conflict? I understand the commission of justice and

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accountability funded by both the UK and US government has evidence to

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link the pieces -- abuses to the highs parts of the Syrian

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government. What can the UK do to get the most vulnerable people out

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of harms way? Given what we know about the horror many of the refugee

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children in Europe have fled isn't it time to end the Government

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shameful refusal to give thousands unaccompanied children sanctuary in

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the UK? Whilst I am a huge fan of President Obama and I worked with

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him in North Carolina in 2008, on Syria I believe both President Obama

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and the Prime Minister made the biggest misjudgement of their time

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in office when they put Syria on the too difficult pile instead of

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engaging fully and they withdrew and put their faith in containment. This

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judgment will be judged harshly by history and has been nothing short

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of the foreign policy disaster. There is still time for both men to

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write a postscript to this failure so does the Minister agree it is

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time for the leaders of both our countries even in the midst of two

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hotly contested political campaigns to launch a joint, bold initiative

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to protect civilians and get aid to besiege communities and throw our

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weight behind the fragile peace talks before they fail. I don't

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believe President Obama or the Prime Minister tried to do harm in Syria

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but sometimes all it takes for evil to triumph is good men to do

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nothing. Can I pay tribute to the work she does in this area? It is

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important to the House is kept up-to-date with the events taking

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place in that country. Firstly to qualify, the Foreign Secretary is

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returning from a visit to Latin America otherwise he would be in

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this place now. I concur with the honourable lady it

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is Syria that is very much responsible for the significant

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number of deaths of all religions but particularly the Sunni people in

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the country itself and that as why we called Russia on bringing Assad

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to account and giving access to the areas. We gain access to about one

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third of the areas we can previously get into. We hope we can unlock that

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and be able to provide access in the forthcoming days. She mentions

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methods of how we get the delivery. There are areas in Daesh territory

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where we can fly slow and low enough in order to accurately drop

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packages. That isn't the case in some conurbations. Aleppo is

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actually Syria's larger city by some margin and not only do you have the

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opposition there, the Assad Government, you also have other

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groups. Without the regime's support, we cannot do the ear drops

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-- air drops. It is better to take trucks into these places to the

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people that directly needed. Air drops can land randomly and often do

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not help the vulnerable. She also mentions other countries and Saudi

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Arabia. -- in. It was Saudi Arabia that brought together the opposition

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groups in the first place in December which got the beginnings of

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these talks that is actually taking place. She speaks of the important

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aspect of collecting evidence. We had a very good debate on this. We

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are playing a leading role in making sure those are brought to justice

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and as we saw in the case of the Serbian leader, sometimes it takes

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many years but we are actively and heavily involved and are likely to

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place more efforts. She finally makes an interesting comment about

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Syria placed on the too difficult pile. I ask a different Syria might

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look if we devoted -- if we had fought it in favour on the punitive

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bomb strikes when Daesh didn't exist in Syria, it had no foothold

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whatsoever? Instead, this House stepped back from that decision and

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I think we will live to regret that. It was back in February that he was

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slapped down by the Russian ambassador to the United Nations

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that said he had Assad's remarks and did not chime with Russia's action.

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He has admitted he did not get much out of his conversation with Sergey

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Lavrov. Does he think the Commonwealth office has the capacity

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to read Russian interests and intentions? The key relationship

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that is developing or has developed at the moment which allows us to

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place greater emphasis on Russia, whether it be Vladimir Putin, Sergey

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Lavrov, is John Kerry and the closest in which John Kerry is

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working with the Foreign Secretary shows that we're playing our part as

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well and I would also say that from is united in perspective we are the

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second largest donor in the country. We are doing our managerial part and

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military part. We are at the forefront of activities but

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ultimately this isn't for the Americans are British, it's for

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Russia to make the determination that it is going to place the

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pressure on Assad to allow access to the very areas that we need to get

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the humanitarian aid into. I'd also like to thank the Minister for his

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response and I'd like to begin biting gradually turn my honourable

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friend on securing this urgent question. In a short time he's been

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in the House, she has consistently stood up for the people of Syria

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cotton is appalling conflict and I think this House can condemn the air

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strikes and shelling in Aleppo and as is recognised by the Geneva

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Convention, there is never any justification for attacking

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hospitals. They believe medics in Aleppo stands in contrast with the

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brutality of the Assad regime -- brave medics, who show their

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disinterest in the people of Syria. We must remain committed to peace

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talks and a political solution to the current conflicts. Britain has a

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crucial role to play in this, particularly in supporting the US,

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Russian ceasefire talks. It's an odd to be an active contributor to this

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process and as a leading EU country we can wield real influence as a

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member of Russia's most important trading block. Can I ask the

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Minister what discussions are ongoing at EU level about exerting

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pressure on the Russians to redouble their commitment to the ceasefire

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and does the Minister has stated, Russia is in the strongest position

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to tell President Assad to stop killing civilians in Aleppo and

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along with my honourable friend, can I ask what specific steps the UK

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Government is taking along with key allies such as Saudi Arabia to

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encourage the Syrian opposition to recommit to the peace process? Will

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the Minister comment on reports that the Assad regime had been using the

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ceasefire to move troops and prepare for an assault on Aleppo? Can I ask

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whether the Geneva negotiations include provisions for additional

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monitoring so that all says can have confidence that a new ceasefire

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agreement will be genuine one? At the heart of this conflict is Asia

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managerial disaster of almost unimaginable scale so can the

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Minister assure the House that the UK is pushing for humanitarian

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access to be at the very heart of any new ceasefire agreement? And

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finally, can the Minister comment on recent reports of an increasing

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collusion between the Assad regime and Daesh? With the Assad regime

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stepping back from confronting Daesh any number of areas will continuing

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to trade with them and therefore provide vital funds for their

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campaigns? I welcome the tone in which she raises these important

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questions. We have had debates on these matters and I welcome the

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engagement and concurrent again with the work they lady has done as

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co-chair on the Syria. These are all part of collecting the evidence on

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the long-term. If I made digress and pay tribute to the white helmet,

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this is an organisation that Britain is helping to fund that helps take

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people out of the rubble. They are the ones that are based on these

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very dangerous areas but are trained to save the lives of those who are

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caught up in these disastrous areas and go in there with the necessary

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technology to try and pull the survivors out. She mentions the role

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of EU. This group will be meeting at the very new future. She also talks

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about the importance of the Syrian opposition and the cohesion of that.

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I had the opportunity to meet the president of the Syrian opposition

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in Turkey in Istanbul only a couple of weeks ago. They were very

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pessimistic at that point about the progress that was actually being

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made and how we have seen events unfold but given the desperate

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nature and await agendas that they find, the fact this group has stayed

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together I think is an indication of the determination to say we do not

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want to be part of Daesh but we also don't want to have Assad as our

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leader. She is right to also indicate that there is huge

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collusion which we now Assad and Daesh. This has been a matter of

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convenience. Reports are coming out in Palm for example fat Daesh would

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retreat from that Avia and the Assad regime would claim this as a victory

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but something else was happening behind the scenes clearly and she

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also alludes to the fact that oil sales have been going on. The Assad

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resume is short of oil reserves and Daesh has oil it can sell.

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Thankfully the work we have been doing on countering Daesh has

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prevented them from producing their oil and therefore gain financially

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from the sale or the use of it itself. What is the Government's

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current advice on Daesh given that in the past the Government has been

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sympathetic but the opposition now feels itself in an extreme difficult

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position? I made it clear in my opening remarks that the Assad

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vision requires a political solution. We need to move forward

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from that any transition process and see the eventual removal of Assad.

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This will allow the country itself to be able to take on ten two.

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However, the two are not mutually exclusive. We can continue with our

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campaign to destroy Daesh. I hope we will see the liberation of the town

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in future. This might be an urgent question but it would be helpful to

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hear agency in the Government's response. The destruction of the

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infrastructure in Aleppo is so want on we wonder if there will be

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anything left worth fighting over. Priority has to be a ceasefire so

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that you meditating aid can be provided and I wonder if the

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Government is making or deliberating to deliver as soon as an opportunity

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arises. The second one is what role the Government sees itself playing.

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I would echo the calls for the Government to show some humanity and

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reconsider its position on accompanying refugee children. On

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the restructuring side, one of the reasons why we hosted or co-hosted

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the important conference that took place in February was exactly for

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that reason, to make sure that we could collect the necessary pledges

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from around the world. This was a record amount of pledge, $11

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billion, the majority of which is going towards supporting the

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refugees but those other initiatives that are taking place as well. He is

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right that there has to be a political track. It is not for us to

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determine that. This is part of wider coalition, the opposition

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coalition has come together and this is exactly what the in Geneva are

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all about. He mentions the 3000 children, it's already been

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mentioned, apologies I have not touched on it. We are doing our best

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to help stem the flow of refugees from the source itself. It is a huge

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question to be asked. That is when EU member states it is felt cannot

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look after refugees and we are taking refugees from other EU member

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states so we have put extra funding in to make sure that the matter

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where they come into it, these refugees are looked after to the

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same standards but we do not want to add to the problem by encouraging

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more people, including children, to make the perilous journey across

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these tracks and the UK as I say is helping provide better support by

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sending teams out to these various refugee camps to make sure they have

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the necessary standards that you would expect if the refugees are in

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this country. We also honour the Dublin Convention which allows the

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transfer of children from other member states if they have a direct

:22:52.:22:55.

family connection here and I'm sure that will be concurrent by the

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refugees Minister -- concurred. This news from Aleppo emphasises that

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Assad must not be part of the endgame in Syria but to what extent

:23:13.:23:15.

with my honourable friend say that Russia has also come round to this

:23:16.:23:19.

view and what work can be done to get Russia to rein in its ally,

:23:20.:23:28.

Assad? Those who are familiar with the long-term relationship between

:23:29.:23:35.

Russia and Syria will be aware that this is an area of the world that

:23:36.:23:38.

Russia sees as their sphere of influence. Syria supported Russia

:23:39.:23:45.

and the Soviet Union during the Cold War, Assad's father trained as a

:23:46.:23:51.

pilot in Russia. There are strong ties between the countries. What I

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would advocate is that Russia recognises the want to keep that

:23:55.:23:59.

influence but they're not elected to the influence of Assad but the

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political transition must move forward and the people of Syria must

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determine who the next leader will be.

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And while Daesh is a murderous group run by outright murderers and

:24:10.:24:16.

psychopaths, the Syrian government at the moment, and for some time,

:24:17.:24:21.

has carried out crimes against humanity on a far greater scale and

:24:22.:24:28.

moreover aided and abetted by a member of the UN Security Council. I

:24:29.:24:39.

would concur. We took steps to hold Assad to account when he crossed a

:24:40.:24:46.

line and used chemical weapons. We wanted to take action and this House

:24:47.:24:53.

decided it was not the needed. We must recognise there are occasions

:24:54.:24:56.

when a few countries in the world can stand up to dictators such as

:24:57.:25:01.

this and the rest of the world looks at countries like Britain to act and

:25:02.:25:02.

we did not. Russia is central to finding a

:25:03.:25:20.

long-term solution in Syria. There is a brick wall between us and them.

:25:21.:25:26.

The Government would not speak to us last week. Communication has broken

:25:27.:25:39.

down. Maybe now is the time to put together our outrage about the

:25:40.:25:42.

annexation of Crimea and say we need to talk about Syria and Parker are

:25:43.:25:51.

differences on other matters. The Defence Select Committee made

:25:52.:25:55.

efforts to visit Moscow and I think it was an important visit.

:25:56.:26:07.

The sanctions on Vladimir Putin are coming from the countries these

:26:08.:26:16.

countries are moving across to and we should be more astute in

:26:17.:26:19.

recognising this issue of Ukraine and Crimea from as perspective is

:26:20.:26:23.

linked to what is happening in Syria. Surely the Minister is aware

:26:24.:26:31.

of the draft statements are calling amongst NGOs working in Aleppo where

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they have said there is a complete absence of the fundamentals of safe

:26:39.:26:43.

humanitarian intervention and the absence of a clear mechanism to

:26:44.:26:49.

monitor document violations of international humanitarian law and

:26:50.:26:59.

human rights law. Is that the case? As she is aware, access to Aleppo is

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difficult and we are collecting intelligence for the longevity but

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she is right to highlight the complexities of this large city, not

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least because the al-Nusra Front is based there and this is where Assad

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has taken advantage of the ceasefire to move weapons to this area as

:27:19.:27:24.

well. This is why it is important for Russia to exert its influence to

:27:25.:27:27.

make sure Assad comes back to the table. Sir Edward Leigh. We have to

:27:28.:27:37.

accept Syria as it is. Whether we like it or not, Assad is not going

:27:38.:27:40.

away. He has the only army on the ground capable of defeating Isis and

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has as much support as the other warring faction. If you undermine

:27:48.:27:55.

him you unleash worse forces. It is significant that progress has been

:27:56.:27:59.

as a result of contact between America and Russia. If we put Russia

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in deep freeze, denying them visas, not talking to lover of, -- Sergei

:28:06.:28:17.

ladder... We must drop our present policy and cooperate with the

:28:18.:28:22.

Americans and Russia to get peace. I don't agree with what he said but I

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agree with the direction of travel. Russia has influence over Assad. We

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are speaking with the Russians. John Kerry is in Geneva along with

:28:32.:28:38.

Russians and other characters. They recognise the urgency in

:28:39.:28:44.

renegotiating the cessation of hostilities so we can get the

:28:45.:28:52.

humanitarian aid back in. The Minister referred to the long-term.

:28:53.:28:57.

How long is long-term? He also made reference to the vote in this House

:28:58.:29:02.

in 2013. Isn't the real failure the fact that our government and the US

:29:03.:29:07.

government didn't impose no-fly zones and humanitarian corridors in

:29:08.:29:12.

2011 and 2012 when they could have and now it may be very difficult to

:29:13.:29:16.

do so but that is the real failure, not intervention. I am a former

:29:17.:29:27.

soldier and I looked at the idea of no-fly zones and humanitarian

:29:28.:29:31.

corridors, even wrote some papers when I was on the backbenches. The

:29:32.:29:36.

trouble you get is that who implements them and what authority

:29:37.:29:41.

do you have to be in the country? We wanted to take Syria through the UN

:29:42.:29:45.

Security Council to the International Criminal Court and

:29:46.:29:48.

guess who vetoed it? China and Russia. That is the difficulty we

:29:49.:29:54.

have. How do you implement and enforce a no-fly zone as such? I

:29:55.:29:59.

agree with the spirit of what he says but this is the reality of

:30:00.:30:00.

where we are. I think the most important concern

:30:01.:30:18.

was unaccompanied children as their safety and I wonder whether we have

:30:19.:30:22.

our policy the wrong way round. 3000 children wandering around Europe can

:30:23.:30:32.

easily be picked up by traffickers. 3000 children in the Middle East can

:30:33.:30:38.

be kept safely in camps and I wonder whether we should actually look at

:30:39.:30:49.

our policy again. The concern expressed regarding the 3000

:30:50.:30:54.

children are absolutely sincere indeed. The solution simply not to

:30:55.:30:59.

remove the challenge from the area itself but solve their challenge in

:31:00.:31:04.

the area itself. We cannot endorse the idea that it is acceptable for

:31:05.:31:10.

other EU states not to meet their requirements, basic requirements for

:31:11.:31:15.

looking after refugees. By us taking those refugees we are simply

:31:16.:31:18.

providing more space for par at the refugees to come in. That is not the

:31:19.:31:24.

answer to this long-term solution. The minister was diverted from the

:31:25.:31:27.

path of virtue by the honourable gentleman, the member from Beckenham

:31:28.:31:35.

with no doubt good intentions, but string somewhat from the terms of

:31:36.:31:39.

the urgent question. I have facilitated much discussion on the

:31:40.:31:42.

matter of refugees and I rather imagine there will be more. No doubt

:31:43.:31:47.

people will feel there should be. It would be best today if we could

:31:48.:31:51.

stick to the terms of the urgent question which honourable lady

:31:52.:31:58.

applied for and which I granted. The minister quite rightly spoke about

:31:59.:32:00.

the influence of Russia but can I ask what pressure is being put on

:32:01.:32:05.

Iran who are equally have supported the Assad regime but through its

:32:06.:32:15.

proxies such as Hezbollah? Has the Foreign Office opened up dialogue

:32:16.:32:22.

with Iran? In terms of the Iran deal, are they putting pressure on

:32:23.:32:26.

them to make sure they respond? That is an important point. If Iran is to

:32:27.:32:32.

take a more responsible role following the nuclear deal on the

:32:33.:32:37.

international stage then we anticipate and expect it to act in a

:32:38.:32:42.

more honourable way whether it is in Damascus in Beirut, Baghdad or

:32:43.:32:54.

Yemen. We are not seeing that to date. He is right that Hezbollah

:32:55.:32:58.

continued to play an important role but we see a difference in opinion

:32:59.:33:01.

between what Iran and Russia are looking for. When you hear

:33:02.:33:10.

first-hand from charities and NGOs that run hospitals in places like

:33:11.:33:16.

Aleppo, of those hospitals being in some cases repeatedly bombed by the

:33:17.:33:19.

regime and Russian forces, the temptation is to come to this place

:33:20.:33:25.

and rage against the system and use those well worn words something must

:33:26.:33:30.

be done. But in reality this is the most complex situation. What we want

:33:31.:33:34.

to hear and I think I have heard it alluded to is that everything is

:33:35.:33:38.

being done to work with the Russians to create a framework whereby safe

:33:39.:33:47.

areas and indeed is possible error corridors delivering aid can be

:33:48.:33:52.

delivered and that must be away of ensuring it is humanitarian aid.

:33:53.:33:59.

Even having a Russian in Akrotiri and seeing what goes on the plane.

:34:00.:34:05.

We discussed these things over the weekend and I know he has followed

:34:06.:34:08.

events closely and he knows he go working in the region as well. It is

:34:09.:34:14.

important that we look to a more long-term solution for access to the

:34:15.:34:21.

monitoring corridors. The Foreign Secretary is talking with John Kerry

:34:22.:34:24.

this afternoon and I hope we will have more to report over time. I

:34:25.:34:29.

think I heard the Minister say in his reply to the question that 49

:34:30.:34:36.

children have been killed in recent hostilities. If I am correct can I

:34:37.:34:40.

ask the Minister to repeat those facts to the House so it is clear to

:34:41.:34:44.

everybody what is happening and for him to say what worked the

:34:45.:34:48.

Government is carrying out to make sure there is medical care for

:34:49.:34:54.

children in Aleppo. I am happy to confirm what I said before.

:34:55.:34:56.

According to human rights monitors at least 252 civilians including 49

:34:57.:35:03.

children were killed in the city of Aleppo in the last four nights

:35:04.:35:12.

alone. -- 253. The situation in Aleppo is very fluid because of the

:35:13.:35:16.

advances the Assad government is wanting to do. It is objective is to

:35:17.:35:27.

take this northern city, a key prize which would have a huge impact if it

:35:28.:35:34.

fell from the coalition. It is vital that we provide access to make sure

:35:35.:35:38.

areas such as hospitals are not bombed. We must look at whether this

:35:39.:35:47.

is a case of giving great grid references -- grid references to

:35:48.:35:50.

make sure they are recognised, not least because it is a breach of the

:35:51.:35:57.

Geneva Convention. He twice use that phrase in order to break the logjam

:35:58.:36:00.

we must have a political transition of a Syrian government. Could hear

:36:01.:36:04.

right now is what that means? Unpalatable as it may be, could that

:36:05.:36:10.

mean Assad has a role in a temporary transitional government, or at least

:36:11.:36:15.

if not Assad, some of his key officials? When the international

:36:16.:36:22.

Syrian workforce came together for the first time it discussed a

:36:23.:36:29.

timetable of transition and this was to allow the various diverse

:36:30.:36:37.

stakeholders across the country itself to determine the timetable

:36:38.:36:40.

itself, a timetable of two years was brought forward, but these are

:36:41.:36:48.

always in the realms of speculation. I hope that the Geneva talks, where

:36:49.:36:51.

these discussions need to take place, will resume discussions on

:36:52.:36:59.

this issue. The Minister set out what the Secretary of State said in

:37:00.:37:04.

his representations to the Russians following the hospital bombing, a

:37:05.:37:07.

gross violation of international law? Did he ask them to tell Assad

:37:08.:37:13.

to stop and what was the Russians' response? I am not privy to the

:37:14.:37:22.

exact wording. The Foreign Secretary arrives back this afternoon and I

:37:23.:37:25.

will ask him to write to the honourable member directly. Five

:37:26.:37:32.

years of conflict and anymore is too long. I hope members across the

:37:33.:37:37.

House. The Government and international committee to bring

:37:38.:37:43.

peace to this country. What is the Government doing to ship plans for

:37:44.:37:51.

post conflict reconstruction? Although it has been five years, the

:37:52.:37:55.

difference of the last five or six months has been that negotiations

:37:56.:37:58.

have taken place and stakeholders have been programmed the table. .

:37:59.:38:14.

This is not happened in the last five years. The major change from

:38:15.:38:18.

the previous five years is coalition members round the table. There was

:38:19.:38:24.

an important step of looking at the details of what the international

:38:25.:38:27.

community must do once the guns fall silent eventually. Along with my

:38:28.:38:36.

honourable friend for North Welcher I was in Moscow last week and one

:38:37.:38:40.

thing I found most of cult is that we have now shared understanding of

:38:41.:38:44.

history or old language in terms of diplomacy and therefore I find it

:38:45.:38:48.

concerning that we are talking in vague words about how we genuinely

:38:49.:38:51.

bring Russia to the table for discussion, maybe through proxies,

:38:52.:38:57.

so can we have more detail about what that plan would be? I am

:38:58.:39:07.

pleased to say that she was able to make it to Moscow and I look forward

:39:08.:39:11.

to any reports she might be putting forward as to what they learned from

:39:12.:39:17.

discussions there. She is right to place the focus on Russia itself and

:39:18.:39:20.

for us to have a better understanding on what Russia's

:39:21.:39:30.

intentions are, because most of it is the president met trying to make

:39:31.:39:36.

his mark and provide distractions of the domestic versus country is in.

:39:37.:39:42.

I welcome the minister in forming the House that the Government is

:39:43.:39:47.

committed to gathering evidence on Thames of crimes against humanity

:39:48.:39:51.

but could the minister update the host what protection is being given

:39:52.:39:54.

to Christian communities and neighbouring countries? She is right

:39:55.:39:59.

to highlight the plight of the Christians, not least in areas with

:40:00.:40:10.

the Yazidis. We saw devastating attacks. We had a debate on these

:40:11.:40:13.

matters a couple of weeks ago and it is important we collect the

:40:14.:40:20.

evidence. It would place them in danger. We are providing an awful

:40:21.:40:24.

lot of work to make sure we can collect that necessary forensic,

:40:25.:40:29.

legal evidence which allows us to make the case of the UN Security

:40:30.:40:33.

Council to take this forward. I think we can all condemned the

:40:34.:40:37.

bombings of civilian is in Aleppo but can I ask the minister was

:40:38.:40:42.

specific action in the UK is undertaking a conjunction with our

:40:43.:40:46.

European partners to try and kick-start the peace process which,

:40:47.:40:53.

as others have mentioned, is seriously...? I would repeat the

:40:54.:40:59.

support we are trying to get for the managerial initiative that takes

:41:00.:41:04.

place. We're the second largest donor and I think Syrian conference

:41:05.:41:08.

is critical in helping refugees not only in Syria but in Lebanon, Jordan

:41:09.:41:12.

and Turkey. I played tribute to those countries -- pay tribute.

:41:13.:41:20.

Talks are taking place behind the scenes to pressurise Russia to make

:41:21.:41:23.

sure Sergey Lavrov and Vladimir Putin realise they are best placed

:41:24.:41:27.

to alert you meditating access to prevent the bombing of civilian

:41:28.:41:38.

areas. I welcome the statement by the Minister. Looking at the

:41:39.:41:41.

statement on the BBC website is says that John Kerry says that Syrian

:41:42.:41:46.

conflict is now out of control. If that is the case, why is the

:41:47.:41:50.

minister optimistic that the current talks will lead to a solution?

:41:51.:41:54.

Aleppo is the last on hold for the opposition. If that false, one may

:41:55.:41:58.

ask why the opposition should take part in further talks in Geneva. He

:41:59.:42:04.

is right to point out by the Syrian opposition pulled out from the

:42:05.:42:07.

talks. It was pointless sitting down to talks in Geneva on your own

:42:08.:42:12.

communities are being bombed back at home. Whilst the situation has grown

:42:13.:42:17.

out of control we have seen the cessation of hostilities break down.

:42:18.:42:21.

John Kerry's current initiative with Sergey Lavrov to make sure that

:42:22.:42:30.

hostilities can be resumed. As I mentioned in my statement, that is

:42:31.:42:38.

working. The recent bombing of hospitals to place in a city that

:42:39.:42:42.

already has a severe shortage of doctors because of the events of the

:42:43.:42:44.

last three or four years will stop what can the Minister do to ensure

:42:45.:42:49.

any ceasefire not only has humanitarian aid at its heart but

:42:50.:42:54.

resumption of medical facilities as well as prevent humanitarian

:42:55.:43:00.

catastrophe? In the silos of the London Syria conference, there were

:43:01.:43:06.

major workshops that took place and there is huge and of effort which

:43:07.:43:11.

would be confirmed by the Minister that are ready to move in but at the

:43:12.:43:14.

moment the situation is just too dangerous for that to be able to

:43:15.:43:23.

happen on a large scale. Time is not on the side of the people of Aleppo.

:43:24.:43:27.

On Sunday night, the main and only road for those in rebel held east

:43:28.:43:31.

was bombed. If the regime clauses that route, only 200,000 residents

:43:32.:43:38.

will be trapped without food and medical supplies. Pressure on Russia

:43:39.:43:41.

is key. Can I urge my rate honourable thing to urge to Russia

:43:42.:43:48.

that time is running out? My honourable friend makes her point

:43:49.:43:52.

very powerfully. The fact we are having this debate is another method

:43:53.:43:58.

of us communicating with Russia, to see we care, we recognise what is

:43:59.:44:03.

going on, Russia you need to do more and currently you're not doing that.

:44:04.:44:10.

It is estimated that recent violence in Aleppo has led to the death of a

:44:11.:44:15.

Syrian every 25 minutes. There is grave humanitarian urgency. What

:44:16.:44:19.

progress is the Government making with negotiations to take aid trucks

:44:20.:44:25.

into Aleppo and if this doesn't progress, well high altitude

:44:26.:44:34.

airdrops BV considered? She raises an important point and how we can

:44:35.:44:37.

both get made into these vulnerable areas and a -- this horrific

:44:38.:44:49.

challenge highlights it. We must place more stress on Russia and make

:44:50.:44:52.

sure Assad is prevented from bombing these areas and then we can get aid

:44:53.:44:56.

in. The best way to get abilities to get to is by truck by Jimmy the

:44:57.:44:59.

permissions from the local checkpoints to go through the

:45:00.:45:05.

grounds for all of that to happen. If we lose all to air drops, the

:45:06.:45:10.

often land in wrong hands and used as him method to worsen the

:45:11.:45:16.

situation -- used as a method, and the people who denied it. Our

:45:17.:45:26.

sentinel aircraft and unmanned air vehicles provided a very complex but

:45:27.:45:32.

detailed a picture over Syria. As evidence being gathered of who the

:45:33.:45:36.

perpetrators are of these attacks on civilians? If there is evidence, how

:45:37.:45:40.

is it then being presented to the native Nations and other nations? I

:45:41.:45:48.

pay tribute to my honourable friend for the work he has done in a

:45:49.:45:52.

previous campaign. He has a huge amount of knowledge of what the

:45:53.:45:56.

Harry F do. He will also benefit the sheet it is an operational question

:45:57.:45:59.

which prevents me from giving him a firm answer. The bombing and

:46:00.:46:11.

shelling of civilian areas in Aleppo is sickening and serious calls into

:46:12.:46:18.

question the Assad regime's commitment to a peaceful resolution

:46:19.:46:25.

in Syria but so too do the attempts to collude and trade with Daesh as

:46:26.:46:30.

has been outlined by my honourable friend the Shadow minister. What are

:46:31.:46:36.

the Foreign Commonwealth Office doing to bring together all sides

:46:37.:46:41.

and make clear that this kind of action is compromising the very

:46:42.:46:44.

efforts we are trying to secure, which is a peaceful settlement

:46:45.:46:53.

within Syria? The honourable gentleman articulate so complicated

:46:54.:46:57.

Syria is but it should not stop us doing our part on bringing Daesh to

:46:58.:47:02.

account. We are destroying Daesh on the battlefield, we are destroying

:47:03.:47:06.

the ideology and ability to get their message out there the Internet

:47:07.:47:11.

and will also providing humanitarian aid and stabilisation in places that

:47:12.:47:14.

have been liberated but the piece of the jigsaw that remains difficult as

:47:15.:47:20.

the political transition in Syria and that is why it is so urgent that

:47:21.:47:30.

talks resume in Geneva. In addition to UK diplomatic efforts and ?2.3

:47:31.:47:39.

billion worth of aid to the region, with reports of collusion between

:47:40.:47:46.

the Assad regime and Daesh in Syria, can my right honourable friend give

:47:47.:47:53.

an assurance that those British air strikes are focused and have not

:47:54.:48:00.

resulted in civilian casualties? Again, it's an operational question.

:48:01.:48:02.

If I may write to the honourable gentleman I will give him a full

:48:03.:48:07.

reply as to what is done. The rules of engagement we adopt and comply

:48:08.:48:14.

with do ensure that we try and avoid civilian casualties at all times but

:48:15.:48:17.

I will write to him with more detail. Tie at the minister will be

:48:18.:48:25.

sent contact has been made with the Peshmerga in defeating Daesh and

:48:26.:48:30.

building a stable future across Syria? The question just gives me

:48:31.:48:40.

license to pay to get to the Peshmerga and the liberation work

:48:41.:48:45.

they have done and indeed the north of Iraq. It is important they

:48:46.:48:51.

recognise the importance of working with the Iraqi army itself as an

:48:52.:48:58.

indigenous capability. It improves if we can liberate towns and Iraq

:48:59.:49:05.

from Daesh completely. I'm most grateful to the Minister and other

:49:06.:49:12.

colleagues. Urgent question. Lucianne. To as the Secretary of

:49:13.:49:19.

State to make a statement on the safety of care and services provided

:49:20.:49:25.

by Southern Health NHS foundation trust. I thank the honourable lady

:49:26.:49:33.

for her question. I want to express my concern and apology to the

:49:34.:49:36.

patients and family members who will again have been let down for the

:49:37.:49:46.

contents of last week us CQC report. This applies to all of us with a

:49:47.:49:50.

role to play in the NHS from the front led to this House and the

:49:51.:49:53.

Government is clear it is best to be open and transparent into what has

:49:54.:49:57.

gone wrong to minimise the risk of similar feelings across the NHS as a

:49:58.:50:01.

whole. We must ensure the trust itself continues to be scrutinised

:50:02.:50:04.

and supported to make rapid improvements in care. Regulators

:50:05.:50:12.

will not hesitate to take necessary action and we will back them. Last

:50:13.:50:19.

week's report followed an inspection requested by the Secretary of State

:50:20.:50:24.

in 2015. The report from the CQC set out a number of concerns including a

:50:25.:50:27.

lack of robust governance arrangements to investigate

:50:28.:50:33.

accidents and incidents, a lack of arrangements to respond to patient

:50:34.:50:36.

safety concerns and need for immediate action to address safety

:50:37.:50:41.

in the trust environment and it also found that the senior management and

:50:42.:50:45.

board agendas were not driven by the need to address these issues. None

:50:46.:50:50.

of these matters are acceptable. NHS improvement has taken place in

:50:51.:50:55.

recent months to improve things that the trust. It has worked closely

:50:56.:51:00.

with the CQC and on the 24th of March, NHS improvement appointed a

:51:01.:51:05.

director to the trust. On April 14 following a warning notice from the

:51:06.:51:09.

CQC, NHS Cammack improvement place an additional condition on the trust

:51:10.:51:12.

license asking it to make urgent patient safety improvements. This

:51:13.:51:22.

gave NHS Improvement the power to make changes if it does not act on

:51:23.:51:27.

fixing the concerns raised. On the 20 need of April following the

:51:28.:51:33.

resignation of the trust chair, -- 29th. As chair, Mr Smart will have

:51:34.:51:41.

responsibility for looking at the adequacy. I welcome the action taken

:51:42.:51:48.

by NHS Improvement. The appointment of a new chair by regulator is a

:51:49.:51:58.

relatively new step. NHS Improvement will monitor the situation closely

:51:59.:52:02.

in the coming weeks and months. I understand the CQC is considering

:52:03.:52:06.

its response and the risks it highlights before deciding to take

:52:07.:52:09.

further enforcement action and none of its options are close. Doctor

:52:10.:52:19.

Paul Elliott, deputy chief inspector at CQC directly responsible for the

:52:20.:52:23.

port and to whom I spoke this afternoon, that delivery plan

:52:24.:52:28.

required by the 27th of April has been received and is being

:52:29.:52:31.

evaluated. NHS Improvement is working closely with the NHS and

:52:32.:52:40.

someone is on site regularly so there is constant oversight and

:52:41.:52:43.

progress being made as well as further progress meetings being

:52:44.:52:50.

made. In addition to the action on Southern Health, it is vital we

:52:51.:52:55.

learn wider lessons for the NHS as a whole. It is right we have robust,

:52:56.:53:04.

inspection that provides issues of safety leadership and this is backed

:53:05.:53:08.

by NHS leadership were required. It is vital that we take avoidable

:53:09.:53:15.

mortality for people with mental health problems and disabilities as

:53:16.:53:22.

seriously as we do for other people. The review programme has been put in

:53:23.:53:26.

place by NHS England to make sure this inequality is understood with

:53:27.:53:29.

and into the elimination. In addition, CQC will be leading a

:53:30.:53:33.

review of how deaths are investigated including those of

:53:34.:53:36.

people with disabilities and mental health needs. There can be no

:53:37.:53:40.

question that this CQC port makes for disturbing reading and the

:53:41.:53:44.

demands action at local and national levels. We want our most honourable

:53:45.:53:50.

people safe and secure and we will do all we can to ensure patient

:53:51.:53:51.

safety. They should have a right to be angry

:53:52.:54:09.

at the failure of NHS trusts. We have a duty to be angry on their

:54:10.:54:15.

behalf. To read the litany of failure, missed warnings, reports

:54:16.:54:20.

and see Gucci -- secrecy over the last four years would make anyone

:54:21.:54:27.

angry. Fridays report shows very little has been done since he

:54:28.:54:30.

discussed the matter in December. The scandal at Southern health

:54:31.:54:34.

happened on this covenant's watch and ministers must take

:54:35.:54:38.

responsibility for what has happened to some of the most vulnerable

:54:39.:54:44.

people in the country. We should be angry, sparrowhawk was left to drown

:54:45.:54:49.

in a bath and that Angela Smith took on life and that David Weston died

:54:50.:54:55.

in the care of this NHS Trust. His father was repeatedly ignored when

:54:56.:54:58.

he raised concerns. All were denied the care they so desperately needed.

:54:59.:55:04.

Last week the BBC reported that over the past five years 12 patients who

:55:05.:55:08.

had been detained for the safety of themselves or others have jumped off

:55:09.:55:11.

the roof of a hospital run by this trust. Access to a roof was still

:55:12.:55:17.

permitted to people at risk of suicide. If all these tragic

:55:18.:55:23.

incidents were the only signs of failure then we should be angry but

:55:24.:55:28.

there is a much bigger story of neglect and malpractice which

:55:29.:55:35.

aggregates into a major scandal. When the Secretary of State

:55:36.:55:37.

responded he rightly said more than anything people will want to know

:55:38.:55:40.

that the NHS loans from such tragedies. The CQC report published

:55:41.:55:48.

on Friday shows this clearly has not happened. I asked the minister what

:55:49.:55:57.

guarantees you can get to the party put thousands patients in the care

:55:58.:56:03.

of the trust that they are safe? And where is the accountability? The

:56:04.:56:08.

culpability and the responsibility? There seems to be very little. I

:56:09.:56:14.

heard what he said about the chair but does he agree that the position

:56:15.:56:17.

of chief executive is untenable and she should be sacked. Will he

:56:18.:56:25.

listened to the heartfelt pleas of families and campaigners who aren't

:56:26.:56:31.

demanding a full public inquiry into Southern health and the broader

:56:32.:56:37.

issues such as the failure to investigate deaths? These issues are

:56:38.:56:43.

not confined to one trust and the Ofsted style ratings will only make

:56:44.:56:48.

a difference there is proper accountability and the

:56:49.:56:53.

accountability to take action and make real improvements to patient

:56:54.:56:58.

care and safety. The families have behaved with such dignity and

:56:59.:57:02.

tenacity and we owe them a debt of gratitude but it should not be left

:57:03.:57:05.

to the families alone to push for accountability. I listened very

:57:06.:57:10.

carefully to what the Minister told the House but I remain unconvinced

:57:11.:57:21.

enough has changed. We debate the Government's failure to act. The

:57:22.:57:23.

time for hollow reassurances is over. We need action and we need it

:57:24.:57:37.

now. We are not actually debating the Government's failure. The

:57:38.:57:41.

Secretary of State did what he said he would do and inquiry was made.

:57:42.:57:52.

People are right to be angry but there is a process to find out what

:57:53.:57:56.

is going on and do something about it and that process is in place.

:57:57.:58:03.

That is what NHS improvement does. There is an issue of urgency. I

:58:04.:58:09.

think that is important. Things take time to get done. I am not content

:58:10.:58:14.

with that in any way at all. But the process is in place to do something

:58:15.:58:19.

about it. The engagement of the CQC and the fact it has ruled out no

:58:20.:58:29.

further options in terms of taking action and prosecutions, the process

:58:30.:58:34.

is not yet finished but what the Secretary of State began, the

:58:35.:58:41.

commitment to patient safety cannot be denied by anyone, and this is a

:58:42.:58:47.

further part of that. Other issues mentioned, I asked the same question

:58:48.:58:50.

about safety to the CQC this afternoon. I asked if people were

:58:51.:58:57.

safe at the foundation trust today. They are safe because the CQC as we

:58:58.:59:04.

know as powers to shut down places immediately if there is a risk to

:59:05.:59:12.

patients. They have not done so and therefore I am absolutely persuaded

:59:13.:59:15.

that if the CQC found such risks they would have close things down.

:59:16.:59:26.

The chief executive's position, the power to deal with management

:59:27.:59:29.

changes held by NHS improvement. I offer a brief word of caution. There

:59:30.:59:35.

is a track record of ministers speaking out about the removal of

:59:36.:59:39.

people in positions of which they have no authority at great cost.

:59:40.:59:44.

Understandably in situations of great concerns it seems an angry

:59:45.:59:49.

response is the right thing but it is not. The chair has gone and there

:59:50.:59:54.

are processes available should be any more management changes

:59:55.:59:59.

necessary. Colleagues can say what they like but a minister cannot and

:00:00.:00:04.

the appropriate processes must be followed. In terms of inquiry, I do

:00:05.:00:09.

not know yet. I want to wait and see what comes out of the further work

:00:10.:00:15.

doing in terms of the trust. I am not ruling out a former further

:00:16.:00:20.

inquiry but an inquiry is physically being done now by the action taking

:00:21.:00:22.

place on the ground. What needs to... Should be more

:00:23.:00:37.

necessary? Maybe. But I need to consider it in terms of what further

:00:38.:00:43.

work is being done at the trust. With preventable deaths, I am sure

:00:44.:00:47.

those cases which require further investigation right across the

:00:48.:00:53.

system dating back many years and preceding this government, there has

:00:54.:00:56.

not been enough attention but we have turned our attention to that

:00:57.:00:59.

and we will make changes because that must end. The report makes

:01:00.:01:15.

disturbing reading. We ever going to -- we are never going to tackle

:01:16.:01:19.

inequality in health unless we assess safety and risk as with the

:01:20.:01:23.

Minister go further on the mortality review to set out how we can see

:01:24.:01:27.

where differences exist around the country? Would he also reassure the

:01:28.:01:34.

House that the duty of candour will be in future more than a kick in the

:01:35.:01:43.

box? The tech in the box for duty of candour was certainly unacceptable.

:01:44.:01:51.

The learning disability mortality review programme is important and it

:01:52.:01:56.

will support local areas to review these deaths and use information to

:01:57.:02:00.

improve services. In time it will also show at a national level if

:02:01.:02:05.

things are improving for people with learning disabilities and fewer

:02:06.:02:08.

people are dying from preventable causes. It is underway as a pilot in

:02:09.:02:12.

the North East and Cumbria and that will help us as it is rolled out.

:02:13.:02:18.

There are plans to roll out the review in all places in England

:02:19.:02:23.

between now and 2018 with pilots commencing in 2016, 17. It is right

:02:24.:02:38.

we are doing this work now. The report, is said, makes grim reading

:02:39.:02:46.

for the many families of patients in the care of Southern health care

:02:47.:02:51.

trust. The Minister has said those failings are not just isolated to

:02:52.:02:57.

this trust but they got a much wider scale. Can the Minister tell me

:02:58.:03:03.

whether in the light of that he is thinking seriously about the idea of

:03:04.:03:08.

a public inquiry which can get to the underlying factors in this

:03:09.:03:17.

matter? And the patients and families, some of them are my

:03:18.:03:24.

constituencies can be reassured that things are not brushed under the

:03:25.:03:29.

carpet? It is vital that is not the case. It is important is to put on

:03:30.:03:34.

record there are some positive aspects of this report in relation

:03:35.:03:39.

to Southampton which I'm sure he will already have seen where the

:03:40.:03:43.

trust is commended for the work it has done. I really don't know at

:03:44.:03:53.

this stage whether an inquiry is the right thing to do. I am very well

:03:54.:03:57.

aware of the seriousness of this and of the questions that the families

:03:58.:04:00.

have raised and the fact this has been going on for some time. The

:04:01.:04:04.

important thing is both to effect change as well as find out what has

:04:05.:04:13.

happened. The CQC report is quite in-depth, public and transparent and

:04:14.:04:17.

that may well have the answer is required but, if not, there may be

:04:18.:04:22.

something further needed so that is why I have an open mind. The most

:04:23.:04:27.

important thing is to give the reassurance of things that have

:04:28.:04:32.

happened, which the CQC report cannot do because that is the work

:04:33.:04:39.

which is going on right now. People with learning disabilities must have

:04:40.:04:44.

confidence in the services provided by Southern Health. The failings

:04:45.:04:49.

identified are unacceptable and disturbing and I welcome that

:04:50.:04:54.

Minister's statement and the CQC's action regarding the warning notice.

:04:55.:05:00.

Will the Minister join me in paying tribute to the dedicated staff at

:05:01.:05:03.

Southern Health facilities who are not indicated in these problems?

:05:04.:05:12.

Including a hospital in my constituency which provides a

:05:13.:05:16.

much-needed facility with dedicated staff running it? When I got the

:05:17.:05:21.

report over the weekend and turned to the summary of findings, the

:05:22.:05:26.

first positive summary finding mentioned was, and I quote, staff

:05:27.:05:31.

were kind, caring and supportive and treated agents with respect and

:05:32.:05:34.

dignity. Patients reported some staff went the extra mile. It is

:05:35.:05:40.

important to put that on the record. It does not minimise things that are

:05:41.:05:44.

wrong but in a trust which is so large and covers such a wide area

:05:45.:05:49.

and number of people, it is important that good work is

:05:50.:05:55.

recognised and areas and faults of management and governments should

:05:56.:06:02.

not be laid at everyone's door. I note in passing that four members

:06:03.:06:05.

are standing on the opposition benches and none of them comes from

:06:06.:06:10.

the area covered, I think, which does not preclude a question but I

:06:11.:06:13.

should just make the point of the question must be about this trust

:06:14.:06:19.

and this set of circumstances rather than as is commonly deployed in the

:06:20.:06:27.

House, "And elsewhere". It is just about this matter and this trust.

:06:28.:06:40.

Thank you. I just want to ask the question, how long does it take to

:06:41.:06:47.

effect change? 45 years ago, the Ely Hospital inquiry took place under

:06:48.:06:53.

the chairmanship of Geoffrey Howe. Recommendations were made and a

:06:54.:07:01.

report was written on the condition of mental health facilities

:07:02.:07:14.

throughout Wales. It seems to me things are going at such a slow pace

:07:15.:07:19.

we will be asking the same question again in 45 years. The frustration

:07:20.:07:35.

in the NHS is that what she says is true in some places is not in

:07:36.:07:40.

others. The special measures is affected change and affected it more

:07:41.:07:43.

quickly. There are other places that does not happen. I am concerned that

:07:44.:07:46.

for too long in mental health that getting things

:07:47.:08:02.

done more quickly and with a degree of urgency generally does not always

:08:03.:08:10.

happen. I am determined that any difficulties in getting things done

:08:11.:08:14.

at local level in trusts when they need to be done will not be aided or

:08:15.:08:18.

abetted by any lack of urgency in the Department or the upper reaches

:08:19.:08:22.

of the NHS with which we have got contact. The concerned to make sure

:08:23.:08:28.

that urgency is there is rightfully expressed by the House and we must

:08:29.:08:38.

see that is delivered. 2011 and 2012, I was locked in a bitter

:08:39.:08:42.

confrontation with Southern Health foundation trust over the

:08:43.:08:47.

determination of its top management to close no fewer than 58 out of its

:08:48.:08:56.

165 acute inpatient beds for people suffering mental health illnesses

:08:57.:09:02.

and breakdowns. It is the only constituency issue over which I've

:09:03.:09:05.

ever suffered sleepless nights and I have failed to stop the -- I failed

:09:06.:09:11.

to stop the trust causing the wins award in the relatively new wood

:09:12.:09:16.

Haven Hospital in my constituency. Today, apart from this terrible

:09:17.:09:22.

issue about the deaths, the system remains over full, the beds are too

:09:23.:09:31.

few and I understand at least 80% of the inpatients are people who have

:09:32.:09:35.

been sectioned so you have got a very low chance of getting an

:09:36.:09:41.

elective bed from Southern health unless you're prepared to wait a

:09:42.:09:44.

long time. And the CQC look into this wider issue given they have so

:09:45.:09:49.

many other serious concerns about the trust?

:09:50.:09:55.

The CQC's powers and extensive and you will know exactly what my

:09:56.:10:01.

honourable friend says. The issue in the debate between the provision of

:10:02.:10:05.

beds for treatment compared to community treatment has been going

:10:06.:10:12.

on for some time and mental health and the different pathways taken by

:10:13.:10:16.

different trusts where you find some more people are being put into beds

:10:17.:10:19.

and others are doing more in the community. Availability must not

:10:20.:10:26.

preclude emergency beds when they are needed. I will make sure the CQC

:10:27.:10:36.

is a weird of these concerns. -- aware. Is southern Health indicative

:10:37.:10:47.

of the pressure being placed on the NHS? Significant pressure on beds,

:10:48.:10:52.

higher thresholds for care and shortages have guaranteed that

:10:53.:10:56.

mental health and learning disability trusts are able to do

:10:57.:11:03.

their jobs? I would point to the fact that isn't used resource for

:11:04.:11:07.

mental health. We have an unassailable 7p, the extra ?1

:11:08.:11:16.

billion will be spent and it is right across the board. It makes

:11:17.:11:22.

sure that baselines are improved to make sure that Government's

:11:23.:11:29.

foundation trusts are good enough and we are watching what the CQC is

:11:30.:11:34.

spending but we're determined to improve it the money is there.

:11:35.:11:40.

All too often it is our constituents with mental health problems and

:11:41.:11:45.

learning difficulties who find it harder to get their voice heard.

:11:46.:11:49.

Those who are patients at southern Health are not in a position to

:11:50.:11:53.

cough urgent change. The Minister has said the delivery plan is being

:11:54.:11:57.

evaluated but can you reassure us that that is being done with the

:11:58.:12:00.

utmost speed so we see improvements on the ground and not just more

:12:01.:12:07.

gathering dust? I have met today put the departmental officials, spoken

:12:08.:12:11.

to NHS improvement, the regional director responsible and also as I

:12:12.:12:16.

indicated before the deputy chief inspector of the CQC who was

:12:17.:12:20.

responsible for the report. I can ensure my honourable friend that

:12:21.:12:25.

insofar as it is up to me or the department, that sense of urgency

:12:26.:12:27.

for change will be adequately delivered and determined because as

:12:28.:12:32.

she rightly says, patients and families have waited in some cases

:12:33.:12:37.

much too long for this. We got to show that delivery follows. The

:12:38.:12:46.

failure of care for people with mental health and disabilities and

:12:47.:12:53.

autism has been shocking. Equally shocking is corner sparrowhawk --

:12:54.:13:07.

Connor Sparrowhawk's death. What can be done to make sure these are acted

:13:08.:13:13.

on to prevent such failures again? Over the past 12 months I've made a

:13:14.:13:18.

number of families who have been victims in these circumstances, some

:13:19.:13:22.

with their children who have been badly placed and inappropriately

:13:23.:13:30.

placed, some who have suffered death as a result. The determination of

:13:31.:13:35.

myself and colleagues is to do whatever we can to break down the

:13:36.:13:38.

situations where people feel they have to fight for everything and

:13:39.:13:46.

define closed doors -- they find. All too often in mental health, it

:13:47.:13:52.

appears to be that when people are challenge, there is a defensiveness

:13:53.:13:55.

about response. The whole transforming care process from the

:13:56.:14:03.

determination of NHS, the board that monitors and overseas those with

:14:04.:14:07.

mental health issues, is trying to make sure that these concerns that

:14:08.:14:10.

have been expressed in the past would go completely but I am quite

:14:11.:14:15.

sure the system is better place now to deal with them and listen to be

:14:16.:14:20.

the more seriously -- listen to them. Does the Minister agree that

:14:21.:14:27.

the recognition of the chairman is a measure of the series is of this

:14:28.:14:32.

issue and after two damning reports, serious changes in the leadership

:14:33.:14:35.

are needed and what the issues and he provide to my constituents such

:14:36.:14:40.

as the family of David West that the regulatory bodies have the power

:14:41.:14:43.

necessary if intervention is required? I indicated that since

:14:44.:14:57.

last year there has been nine changes to the board and of course

:14:58.:15:03.

the chair of the board left last weekend. NHS Improvement has the

:15:04.:15:08.

power to alter governance and I know from speaking to them they take

:15:09.:15:12.

their power and responsibility extremely seriously. The balance is

:15:13.:15:17.

between ensuring balance and continuity to making sure that

:15:18.:15:20.

promise is delivered rather than a wholesale change which would send

:15:21.:15:22.

the provide an opportunity for further delay and prevent the work

:15:23.:15:28.

going on. I know NHS Improvement is very aware of their responsibility

:15:29.:15:35.

to the Government as is the trust itself. It is absolutely right this

:15:36.:15:43.

has legislated for power of esteem for mental health care. I also

:15:44.:15:54.

commend the quick resolution of the failings for the particular trust

:15:55.:15:57.

but will he consider an independent inquiry similar to the very first

:15:58.:16:01.

independent inquiry into the investigation of mid-Staffs that my

:16:02.:16:12.

honourable friend initiated in 2010? I can do nothing more than repeat

:16:13.:16:16.

what I said earlier. I am aware that there might be circumstances in

:16:17.:16:22.

which an inquiry could bring out more, demonstrate a degree of

:16:23.:16:27.

concern that colleagues in the House might find most appropriate and of

:16:28.:16:31.

course the families and others would understand. My first duty is to make

:16:32.:16:35.

sure that of a one is indeed safe in the trust and that work that needs

:16:36.:16:42.

to be done to deliver what the CQC has found is actually being done,

:16:43.:16:46.

but I'm very conscious of whether or not, even after this thorough work

:16:47.:16:51.

by CQC, which is transparent, if there is anything further that is

:16:52.:16:54.

needed, I will give it very genuine and serious consideration. The

:16:55.:17:04.

minister is quite right when he calls the Port disturbing. It has

:17:05.:17:08.

caused alarm and uncertainty across my constituency and it is with

:17:09.:17:13.

uncertainty I hope he can help. I keep to know if he has a hard date

:17:14.:17:18.

by which the trust is to be reviewed again and if it were to feel that

:17:19.:17:21.

hurdle, what with the next action be? Simply evocation of the licence

:17:22.:17:27.

are further improvement? Most of my constituents want to see a deadline

:17:28.:17:30.

by which compliance must be made and after that that there is significant

:17:31.:17:36.

change that might mean a new year at southern Health. -- new era. In as

:17:37.:17:46.

best as I can convey it, it is a sort of constant monitoring that is

:17:47.:17:51.

being done. Firstly, the improvement director appointed by NHS

:17:52.:17:56.

Improvement is there, keeping up effectively, he will have the

:17:57.:18:02.

constant presence in due course but the monitoring needs to be done on a

:18:03.:18:06.

regular basis. Also the CQC has made it very clear that should there be

:18:07.:18:14.

any need for further and -- unannounced inspections, they will

:18:15.:18:18.

do them. They are under constant noticed there can be an inspection

:18:19.:18:22.

at any time but further powers of the CQC include issuing a further

:18:23.:18:29.

warning notice, removing conditions of registration, penalty notice for

:18:30.:18:33.

prescribed offences, suspending registration, cancelling

:18:34.:18:38.

registration and prosecution. I understand none of these measures

:18:39.:18:46.

have been ruled out. It is that point I wish to stand upon and it is

:18:47.:18:50.

the candour of duty which will give us more strength and none of it has

:18:51.:18:55.

been applied yet. It is a statutory duty place and people carrying a

:18:56.:19:00.

regulatory activities. It can lead to prosecution by the CQC and can

:19:01.:19:05.

lead to prosecution without warning notice by the CQC. Can the Minister

:19:06.:19:10.

assure me he will watch very carefully how the CQC uses those

:19:11.:19:14.

powers and that they are used appropriately because if they are

:19:15.:19:19.

not, we are once again failing these honourable people -- vulnerable.

:19:20.:19:26.

Absolutely. If we have a system where quite rightly there is a

:19:27.:19:31.

degree of autonomy and responsibility of ministers is to

:19:32.:19:34.

make sure the process in the system works well, where the Minister can't

:19:35.:19:38.

make all the decisions personally, we do have to make absolutely sure

:19:39.:19:44.

that even if decisions deemed to be taken, they are taking and if not

:19:45.:19:49.

there is an explanation why. CQC powers have been strengthened. I

:19:50.:19:53.

know that a few months ago, there was the first case where a chair

:19:54.:19:57.

home owner was jailed because of the care of people who has been in their

:19:58.:20:03.

home and whilst recognising that the work done in cheering for vulnerable

:20:04.:20:08.

people is complex and difficult and prosecution won't be the right

:20:09.:20:11.

answer in every single case. Knowing the powers are there is very

:20:12.:20:16.

important and the honourable Lady's anger is appropriate and I know that

:20:17.:20:19.

the CQC take these powers very seriously. Could I the Minister

:20:20.:20:30.

where the NHS improvement director now has the power to go into any

:20:31.:20:39.

Southern Health NHS foundation trust facility and assess and neutralise

:20:40.:20:45.

possible threats that we have learned about in the past where

:20:46.:20:51.

people have died? Forgive me, I don't know. I would see things from

:20:52.:20:55.

the dispatch box I don't know. I don't the precise powers of the

:20:56.:21:00.

improvement director. I know the CQC includes the powers might honourable

:21:01.:21:04.

friend is putting forward but the purpose of appointing the

:21:05.:21:07.

improvement director and the new chair, which has been done by NHS

:21:08.:21:12.

Improvement, Tim Smart the former Chief Executive of College Hospital

:21:13.:21:16.

trust, is to put in place people who know what they're doing, know what

:21:17.:21:20.

you're looking for can authorise others to make sure there is nothing

:21:21.:21:23.

being covered up and everything is transparent. What assurances can the

:21:24.:21:30.

Minister give us to the current levels of care and safety to the

:21:31.:21:36.

families of those patients with learning difficulties who are in the

:21:37.:21:38.

care of southern health at this time? I think the best thing to do

:21:39.:21:50.

is refer to the CQC report we can highlight the good practice and good

:21:51.:21:53.

work it does through the staff in a variety of places of community

:21:54.:22:01.

pathways. That work is highlighted and demonstrates good practice. This

:22:02.:22:04.

is a large trust covering many areas and it would be quite wrong to

:22:05.:22:08.

assume that the standard of care is uniform rate across-the-board in

:22:09.:22:11.

terms of the criticisms that have been there. The criticisms are real

:22:12.:22:19.

and strong. The criticism of members is reported by the CQC to be good

:22:20.:22:24.

and I reassured that in terms of safety, CQC has powers and has

:22:25.:22:27.

assured me that if they needed to use those powers and elation to

:22:28.:22:32.

safety and risk to patients, they would use them. Can I thank the

:22:33.:22:36.

Minister and other colleagues who have taken part in these exchanges

:22:37.:22:43.

that they have been a very important treatment of an important subject.

:22:44.:22:46.

Perhaps on behalf of the House, I can express the hope that the

:22:47.:22:51.

Hansard text of these exchanges will be supplied to Southern Health NHS

:22:52.:23:01.

foundation trust. They need to know that we have treated of them and

:23:02.:23:06.

what has been said, politely and with notable restraint, but with

:23:07.:23:10.

very real anxiety in all parts of the House about the situation within

:23:11.:23:25.

its aegis. Last week there were a number of understandable occasions

:23:26.:23:29.

when people in the chamber, Members of Parliament, broke into applause.

:23:30.:23:35.

It can be quite awkward for some of us on this side of the House under

:23:36.:23:40.

the opposition who know about the conventions of the House because we

:23:41.:23:45.

feel unable to join in the applause. I wonder if you could give guidance

:23:46.:23:50.

about what is the current practice and perhaps if you uphold the

:23:51.:23:56.

tradition that we don't have applause. I don't wish to pre-empt

:23:57.:24:01.

your view on this that you could let it be known more generally to

:24:02.:24:04.

members of the House of Commons whether we should break into

:24:05.:24:06.

applause or not on occasion. I thank the honourable gentleman for

:24:07.:24:14.

his point of order and is great courtesy and raising it in the way

:24:15.:24:18.

they needed. The short answer is, it is the longest at the convention of

:24:19.:24:21.

this house that we do applaud. For what it is worth, -- we do not

:24:22.:24:29.

applaud. For the best of my recollection, I have never myself

:24:30.:24:31.

done so. If the honourable gentleman is asking me if I would prefer it to

:24:32.:24:36.

remain that way, the short answer is, I would. I think that the

:24:37.:24:39.

convention that we do not applaud to register approval, but do it in

:24:40.:24:44.

other ways, is a valuable convention. All I would say to the

:24:45.:24:47.

honourable gentleman who has raised his point in an extremely polite way

:24:48.:24:54.

is, so far as the chair is concerned, each situation has to be

:24:55.:24:58.

judged on its merits, and I am very conscious that I am the servant of

:24:59.:25:05.

the house. If, spontaneously, a large group of members burst into

:25:06.:25:09.

applause, sometimes, the most prudent approach is to let it take

:25:10.:25:15.

its course. But I would much prefer it if it did not happen, unless the

:25:16.:25:22.

house consciously we'll is a change. I am not aware that the house as a

:25:23.:25:25.

whole has consciously willed a change. In that respect, I sense

:25:26.:25:30.

that the honourable gentleman and I, not for the first time, and

:25:31.:25:34.

hopefully not for the last, are on the same side.

:25:35.:25:40.

Doctor Julian Lewis. In fairness to those members who are

:25:41.:25:44.

usually newer members, who occasionally do this, I think it

:25:45.:25:51.

worth pointing out, is it not, that this usually tends to happen on a

:25:52.:25:59.

particular, spontaneous, unusual occasion, and not routinely, and

:26:00.:26:03.

that if it did happen routinely, we would end up with organised chairing

:26:04.:26:06.

of the sort that we sometimes get on the more down-market versions of

:26:07.:26:11.

talent shows on TV. That would not be the direction in which we would

:26:12.:26:15.

want to go. That would be thoroughly

:26:16.:26:20.

undesirable! The more unusual, or even occasional, the better. And for

:26:21.:26:26.

it to become the norm would, I think, be deprecated by the

:26:27.:26:31.

honourable member for Lichfield, the honourable member for New Forest

:26:32.:26:37.

East, and deprecated by the chair. The honourable member for Lichfield

:26:38.:26:41.

asked me to find a way of communicating more widely my view on

:26:42.:26:44.

this matter, and I hope I have just taken this opportunity. There is no

:26:45.:26:49.

slight directed at any individual, nor any adverse comment on any

:26:50.:26:53.

particular occasion. What usually, our traditions are for a reason, and

:26:54.:27:00.

to find that we lied or morphed into new situation -- elide or morphed

:27:01.:27:10.

into a new situation, as a result of inactivity or happenstance, is

:27:11.:27:12.

undesirable. If the house wants to change things, let it do so, but as

:27:13.:27:17.

far as I'm concerned, it has not yet done so. I hope that is helpful.

:27:18.:27:22.

Point of order, Kate Green. You may be aware of a report

:27:23.:27:27.

published over the weekend by Citizens Advice, indicating a 25%

:27:28.:27:29.

increase in the number of people coming forward with problems

:27:30.:27:36.

relating to pregnancy and maternity discrimination, and this follows hot

:27:37.:27:42.

on the heels of a report shortly before the Easter recess from the

:27:43.:27:45.

Equality And Human Rights Commission, indicating that three

:27:46.:27:51.

quarters of women have had negative experiences at work associated with

:27:52.:27:54.

pregnancy or maternity. I am pleased to see the honourable member who

:27:55.:27:59.

chairs the select committee is in the chamber, because her committee

:28:00.:28:02.

are conducting an important piece of research into this, but there has

:28:03.:28:05.

been no comment at all from government ministers, and so far, no

:28:06.:28:09.

indication that one will be made -- time will be made in this chamber to

:28:10.:28:12.

debate this. Can you tell me ministers have approached this

:28:13.:28:17.

indicating their intention to make a statement, either on the EH RC

:28:18.:28:21.

reports, or the other report, from which the Department for Business,

:28:22.:28:26.

Innovation and Skills was associated?

:28:27.:28:28.

As far as I am concerned, my answer is no. I have not been approached,

:28:29.:28:32.

and certainly not directly. I am not conscious of any argument of Mrs

:28:33.:28:39.

circulating in my office. -- missive. It does occur to me that

:28:40.:28:43.

work and pensions questions take place on Monday of next week, and

:28:44.:28:50.

that is by no means the only or even necessarily the best opportunity to

:28:51.:28:55.

raise the matter, but it is one such opportunity, and if that does not

:28:56.:29:01.

suit the honourable member, or other opportunities are sought, they may

:29:02.:29:08.

materialise. I would only say that as far as the house as an employer

:29:09.:29:13.

is concerned, I am not aware that there is a problem, and I would be

:29:14.:29:17.

very concerned if there were. I would take steps to keep myself

:29:18.:29:24.

informed. We must keep ourselves informed that best practice as well

:29:25.:29:28.

as the law are followed. I thank the honourable lady for her patience.

:29:29.:29:32.

Point of order, Caroline Lucas. And he very much. You may have seen

:29:33.:29:38.

recent reports that police unit tasked with monitoring extremists

:29:39.:29:46.

has been wasting its time monitoring members of the Green party,

:29:47.:29:49.

including myself. I wonder if you could give advice on the best way

:29:50.:29:52.

for me to raise this, so that we could get a statement from the Home

:29:53.:29:56.

Secretary here in the house on the methods of surveillance, the powers

:29:57.:30:02.

supposedly used in order to justify that surveillance, and most

:30:03.:30:06.

importantly, why citizens lawfully engaging in legitimate political

:30:07.:30:09.

activity have been targeted eye the police in this way.

:30:10.:30:15.

Well, this is a rather disturbing matter. Let me say to the honourable

:30:16.:30:19.

lady that I don't know whether she is suggesting that there is any

:30:20.:30:26.

interference with her work as a member of Parliament. If that were

:30:27.:30:33.

so, that would be an exceptionally serious matter, but it would be

:30:34.:30:38.

effectively a matter of privilege, about which, in conformity with

:30:39.:30:42.

convention, she should write to me, and it will then be taken forward as

:30:43.:30:46.

appropriate, and beyond that, I can really just say that the matter in

:30:47.:30:57.

question is not one for me. It does sound a very bizarre situation. I

:30:58.:31:00.

find it very curious to think that the honourable lady is being, or

:31:01.:31:06.

might be, subject to some sort of surveillance in relation to their

:31:07.:31:09.

activities as a member of Parliament. I am not aware of that,

:31:10.:31:13.

but the matter isn't one for the chair, and I think that I have to

:31:14.:31:18.

advise her that she must find other means by which to air her concerns.

:31:19.:31:25.

If she won't take it amiss, I will simply say that knowing both her

:31:26.:31:32.

intelligence and her indefatigability, there is no way

:31:33.:31:35.

that finding other means to bear her concern will be beyond her very

:31:36.:31:39.

considerable capabilities. Perhaps we can leave it there for today, but

:31:40.:31:43.

if she needs to come back about the matter, and it is potentially a very

:31:44.:31:48.

serious matter, she should do so. If there are no further points of

:31:49.:31:52.

order, we come now to the ten minute rule motion, a further opportunity

:31:53.:31:56.

for the display of intelligence and indefatigability, Caroline Lucas.

:31:57.:31:59.

Thank you very much. I beg to move that leave be given to bring in a

:32:00.:32:04.

bill to require the Secretary of State to establish an independent

:32:05.:32:07.

commission and enquiry to examine ways of improving parliamentary and

:32:08.:32:11.

other public scrutiny of ministerial mandates, and outcomes, in relation

:32:12.:32:15.

to EU institutions, policies and legislation, and for connected

:32:16.:32:21.

purposes. In 50 days, this country will go to the polls to take the

:32:22.:32:26.

most important single precision of a generation, whether to remain in the

:32:27.:32:31.

EU or whether to leave. I am strongly in favour of staying in. I

:32:32.:32:36.

will continue to make the case that we are stronger in, greener in, and

:32:37.:32:40.

fairer in. And today's globalised world, we can achieve so much more

:32:41.:32:45.

by working together with our closest neighbours than by going it alone.

:32:46.:32:50.

But I make this speech today, Mr Diabetes be, not available on

:32:51.:32:53.

everything about the EU. Indeed, I understand when some constituents

:32:54.:33:00.

ask, why stay part of an institution which has faults? Or, why spend time

:33:01.:33:04.

on reforming the EU when we could leave it instead? There are many

:33:05.:33:08.

concerns about the UN how it operates, which are valid, as

:33:09.:33:13.

indeed, there are valid concerns about how Westminster operates. But

:33:14.:33:17.

they are not a reason to walk away. Moreover, such concerns are often

:33:18.:33:21.

exploited by populist political opportunists, with toxic, xenophobic

:33:22.:33:25.

messages. Outright fear mongering about foreigners is again rearing

:33:26.:33:29.

its ugly head across the continent. What worries me most about the rise

:33:30.:33:34.

of this divisive politics is that it raises from history the series of

:33:35.:33:38.

events that led to the formation of the EU. -- a races. It is also

:33:39.:33:41.

remarkably complacent about the future. The EU is not an abstract

:33:42.:33:49.

Project born of some kind of idle philosophising in continental think

:33:50.:33:52.

tanks. The imperative to share sovereignty in Europe and ensure

:33:53.:33:55.

that economic competition does not yet again spill over into conflict,

:33:56.:34:00.

was built on the blood and bones of Europeans killed in the terrible

:34:01.:34:05.

first half of the 20th century. The EU is a pragmatic response to our

:34:06.:34:10.

failure to manage the forces of nationalism and industrialisation,

:34:11.:34:13.

and I would argue that it has done much to reduce the aggressive

:34:14.:34:17.

ambitions of European elites who have disputed control of the

:34:18.:34:21.

continent for centuries. And so, for me, one of the foremost reasons for

:34:22.:34:24.

staying in the EU is because it makes peace more likely. But we

:34:25.:34:30.

cannot wish away the EU's problems, nor simply urge people to urge it

:34:31.:34:34.

because -- urge people to love it because of its history of

:34:35.:34:37.

peacemaking. We must be bold in making sure how the EU works, and

:34:38.:34:42.

ensure our constituents have more of a say over what happens at EU level.

:34:43.:34:46.

Data suggests British people are among the least knowledgeable about

:34:47.:34:49.

the EU, and that is not their fault, but it does highlight the urgent

:34:50.:34:52.

need to ensure the public are able to be more engaged with EU level

:34:53.:34:55.

policy and legislation. The fundamental point is that there are

:34:56.:35:00.

dozens of things that can be done unilaterally here in the UK to

:35:01.:35:04.

radically improve accountability and engagement about EU decision-making,

:35:05.:35:09.

and that is what my bill is about. After working for ten years as an

:35:10.:35:14.

NEP in the European Parliament, I am in no doubt that the EU needs

:35:15.:35:18.

far-reaching reform. One major set of reforms could happen tomorrow,

:35:19.:35:21.

because they are entirely within the gift of the UK Government's

:35:22.:35:26.

implement. No agreement or even discussion is required without the U

:35:27.:35:28.

countries to make them happen. These reforms are the subject of the bill

:35:29.:35:34.

I am presenting today. They build on proposals from the electoral reform

:35:35.:35:38.

Society, the Hansard Society, the House of Lords EU committee, and the

:35:39.:35:42.

Commons European scrutiny committee, who have already done much important

:35:43.:35:46.

work in this area. But one of these proposals is that the UK Parliament

:35:47.:35:49.

as a whole should engage with the government's negotiating position

:35:50.:35:53.

before European council meetings as well as after, a practice that is

:35:54.:35:57.

routine in many other member states. We need a more effective model of

:35:58.:36:00.

scrutiny to allow Parliament still hold the government fully to account

:36:01.:36:05.

regarding its dealings with other European states. The Hansard Society

:36:06.:36:09.

has pointed to the fact that our system, largely one of document

:36:10.:36:14.

-based scrutiny, takes place only once in a civil society. We could

:36:15.:36:18.

easily improve the scrutiny of ministers that monthly departmental

:36:19.:36:21.

oral questions, for example, including topical questions, by

:36:22.:36:24.

setting aside specific time for coverage of European issues related

:36:25.:36:29.

to their policy areas. Our select committee system should also provide

:36:30.:36:32.

a high profile powerhouse the scrutiny is in EU policies. To make

:36:33.:36:37.

it happen, the UK's European scrutiny committee should not just

:36:38.:36:41.

be reactive, but should have the capacity to proactively choose what

:36:42.:36:44.

a follow-up, like a departmental select committee. Then, we need to

:36:45.:36:50.

raise the profile of this house's own three European committees, which

:36:51.:36:52.

cover particular government departments. I have much sympathy

:36:53.:36:56.

with the suggestion that membership of this committee should be made

:36:57.:36:59.

permanent, so expertise and experience could be built up. The

:37:00.:37:04.

electoral reform Society points out that the House of Lords is

:37:05.:37:06.

considered to provide exemplary scrutiny of the EU, with six

:37:07.:37:09.

subcommittees covering various aspects of policy, as well the

:37:10.:37:13.

stand-alone EU select committee, but it is an irony that the part of the

:37:14.:37:17.

British Parliament that provides the greatest scrutiny of the EU is the

:37:18.:37:21.

part that is itself both unelected and unaccountable, and it is time

:37:22.:37:24.

for that to change. Credit should be given to the European scrutiny

:37:25.:37:27.

committee, which has for some time been reviewing the links that they

:37:28.:37:31.

have with department will select committees. For example, examining

:37:32.:37:35.

the role of an informal network of EU contact points on each select

:37:36.:37:39.

committee team, as they do in the Scottish parliament. The European

:37:40.:37:42.

scrutiny committee can require our select committees to develop and

:37:43.:37:46.

provide an opinion on a particular document, but Commons select

:37:47.:37:49.

committee is often don't look at the legislation, or have the capacity to

:37:50.:37:53.

do so, which means coverage of EU matters can be patchy and

:37:54.:37:57.

inconsistent. The commission of enquiry provided for in this bill

:37:58.:38:00.

would look at the very strong case for expanding the Commons select

:38:01.:38:08.

committee system, so it can proactively scrutinise EU proposals

:38:09.:38:10.

and legislation, and I recognise that in order to manage the system

:38:11.:38:13.

work load, that would need some kind of sub committee system, and would

:38:14.:38:15.

need to be properly resourced. But I believe it could make a real

:38:16.:38:18.

difference to the levels of scrutiny and accountability. We also need

:38:19.:38:22.

better mechanisms to give devolved parliaments and assembly is the

:38:23.:38:25.

ability to hold UK ministers to account at EU negotiations, and

:38:26.:38:30.

ministers should have the right to participate in European council

:38:31.:38:32.

meetings. Those are just some examples of changes that the UK can

:38:33.:38:37.

unilaterally make to improve accountability and scrutiny of EU

:38:38.:38:41.

decision-making. Indeed, a House of Lords EU committee report in 2015

:38:42.:38:45.

identified no fewer than 35 such measures. Under this bill, we should

:38:46.:38:49.

also consider reforms that UK ministers should be championing at

:38:50.:38:54.

EU level. That same House of Lords committee repeated their previous

:38:55.:38:58.

call three formally recognised green card system. At present, this is

:38:59.:39:02.

just an informal mechanism intended to enable the parliaments of EU

:39:03.:39:05.

member states to join forces to make proposals to the European

:39:06.:39:09.

Commission, to initiate new policy and legislation. That first green

:39:10.:39:13.

card, and food waste, was prepared by the House of Lords and submitted

:39:14.:39:17.

to the commission last year. This is an important means for strengthening

:39:18.:39:23.

and making possible the joint action of national parliaments, to make

:39:24.:39:25.

proactive proposals not just react to them, and I think it is an

:39:26.:39:29.

important way of revitalising our democratic participation in Europe.

:39:30.:39:35.

That also means of strengthening the work of Parliament officers in

:39:36.:39:41.

Brussels so that we can enhance parliamentary cooperation across a

:39:42.:39:43.

whole range of issues across the member states. The European

:39:44.:39:45.

Commission is one of the less democratic parts of the EU. We

:39:46.:39:49.

urgently need better ways to hold the commissioners to account. The 28

:39:50.:39:53.

European commissioners appointed by governors at almost like a cabinet,

:39:54.:39:57.

with each responsible for a certain brief. The commission is currently

:39:58.:40:03.

too powerful, it proposes EU administration, managers budget and

:40:04.:40:06.

enforces decisions and yet the Tamils of representation are by that

:40:07.:40:10.

time and there is a serious lack of transparency about the way we select

:40:11.:40:15.

commissioners. There is a significant gap between the

:40:16.:40:18.

commission and the people, one that obscures channels Southwark and

:40:19.:40:21.

ability. But there are things we can do about this and the commission set

:40:22.:40:23.

out in my bill should have within its remit and assessment of what

:40:24.:40:27.

mechanisms we could use here in the UK to better hold our EU

:40:28.:40:31.

Commissioner to a account and to allow for transparency of the role.

:40:32.:40:37.

We can remedy the situation where most fours and neither know nor care

:40:38.:40:41.

who do EU commissioners are what they stand for. We need new

:40:42.:40:48.

mechanisms to ensure that can undertake a more proactive role. It

:40:49.:40:52.

is unacceptably and unnecessarily difficult to follow what ministers

:40:53.:40:56.

are doing on our behalf in the EU, let alone for parliamentarians and

:40:57.:40:59.

the public to have meaningful input to shape it. That is a big part of

:41:00.:41:07.

the perceived democratic deficit associated with EU level

:41:08.:41:09.

decision-making. There is so much that we could and should do,

:41:10.:41:11.

unilaterally, you're in the UK to make that better, as well as at the

:41:12.:41:15.

EU level. Of course, there are much bigger reforms needed as well, for

:41:16.:41:17.

example in terms of the relative powers between the European

:41:18.:41:21.

Parliament and the commission. But the purpose of this bill is to

:41:22.:41:24.

identify the measures we can take here and now in the UK if there is

:41:25.:41:27.

significant political will. We already have the powers to make it

:41:28.:41:30.

more democratic and accountable if we choose to take them and there are

:41:31.:41:33.

clear steps we should and could be taking in this House. I hope that on

:41:34.:41:37.

the 24th of June the UK will not only board to remain part of the EU

:41:38.:41:42.

but it grasps the opportunity to reform our continued participation

:41:43.:41:45.

and that we in this House can create a cop positive gateway to a new and

:41:46.:41:51.

revised to strand of political transparency, participation and

:41:52.:41:55.

accountability. The reforms I have outlined today will not in

:41:56.:41:57.

themselves and save the EU from a crisis of accountability but they

:41:58.:42:01.

will make a big difference and will certainly help. Thank you. The

:42:02.:42:07.

question is that the honourable member have leave to bring in the

:42:08.:42:13.

bill. Mr Deputy Speaker, say we were to enter into some kind of green

:42:14.:42:20.

Dreamland, and here we are, one week from Parliament being paroled for

:42:21.:42:25.

the Queen's speech, say that we were all, both opposition and government,

:42:26.:42:30.

to accept this bill, we all know, Mr Deputy Speaker, that is not going to

:42:31.:42:34.

happen. But say it did happen. Say this bill became law, you know what

:42:35.:42:40.

I think? I think the effect on the European Union would. Absolute zero.

:42:41.:42:53.

You can have as much or as many Select committees in this Parliament

:42:54.:42:56.

as you like. -- the effect on the European Union would be nul points.

:42:57.:43:05.

The honourable member for has spent a lifetime scrutinising the European

:43:06.:43:08.

Union. We already summon the Prime Minister to our chamber after

:43:09.:43:10.

European Council meetings and he spends two hours here answering our

:43:11.:43:15.

questions. How much difference does that make? We got somebody in

:43:16.:43:19.

before. We could do all the things that the honourable lady once and

:43:20.:43:23.

nothing will change. Because what is the structure of the European Union?

:43:24.:43:26.

The European Union is indeed a unique construct in terms of

:43:27.:43:32.

democracy and world history. We have a Parliament representing the people

:43:33.:43:38.

of the European Union which has no ability to initiate legislation.

:43:39.:43:44.

Legislation can only be initiated by an unaccountable bureaucracy, the

:43:45.:43:48.

commission, in what Parliament or in what nation, Mr Deputy Speaker, is

:43:49.:43:53.

that propagated? And what of the Council of ministers? I have served

:43:54.:43:57.

with my honourable friend, who sits in front of me, on the Council of

:43:58.:44:03.

ministers. Where are we, or I do know, concerned over Italy about

:44:04.:44:08.

what is being discussed? By deputies in these various parliaments? No,

:44:09.:44:11.

this is all done through the night at deal-making. I give way. Is this

:44:12.:44:17.

bill not putting a colourful pretty ribbon on the tail of the very

:44:18.:44:22.

hungry died at the EU that will go on eating up our powers, taking our

:44:23.:44:26.

and forcing them up on green products? Absolutely. -- taking our

:44:27.:44:34.

taxes. There is one way in which we can generally reform the EU. The

:44:35.:44:37.

Prime Minister tells us that we should remain in a reformed EU. Is

:44:38.:44:43.

there a single honourable member on either side of this argument, either

:44:44.:44:48.

side of the House, who believes that the Prime Minister has reformed the

:44:49.:44:51.

EU despite his best efforts? Nobody believes that. Everybody knows that

:44:52.:44:55.

negotiation was to all intents and purposes a sham in order to enable

:44:56.:45:01.

the Prime Minister to come back to the British people under to try and

:45:02.:45:05.

convince them that is on reformed, unreformable body has indeed been

:45:06.:45:09.

reformed, where we all know, or everybody in Europe knows, that it

:45:10.:45:12.

is on reformed and unreformable because of the very structure that I

:45:13.:45:16.

have talked about. -- it is not reformed. And of course, the

:45:17.:45:21.

fundamental problem is that although you can have as many Select

:45:22.:45:24.

Committee is as you like and summon ministers as often as possible, this

:45:25.:45:27.

Parliament is not supreme. This was the fundamental dilemma that our

:45:28.:45:32.

predecessors, the Labour government, in 1948, and the Conservative

:45:33.:45:38.

government in 1957, were faced with. They were very happy to try and

:45:39.:45:45.

create European free trade, more free trade in iron and steel in

:45:46.:45:51.

1948, more free trade in 1957. But it was made clear to them by various

:45:52.:45:57.

people that this was a project which led, and would lead, inevitably to

:45:58.:46:03.

federation. And this is what this project is about. It is, in the

:46:04.:46:08.

terms of that book, this pleasant plot. The people of Europe are not

:46:09.:46:13.

being consulted and the whole way the European construct is divided is

:46:14.:46:18.

to ensure that these deals and these progress towards European federation

:46:19.:46:23.

is made in secret. When I was chairman of the Public Accounts

:46:24.:46:25.

Committee we went to the European Court order do you know, Mr Deputy

:46:26.:46:29.

Speaker, that the can't have ever been signed off? This is a body

:46:30.:46:33.

riddled, not only with waste, incompetence, but also with

:46:34.:46:38.

corruption. So this bill will achieve nothing, even if it became

:46:39.:46:42.

all. But there is one way, Mr Deputy Speaker, in which we can achieve

:46:43.:46:46.

something. What would happen... I just post this as a question. What

:46:47.:46:51.

would happen if one of the most important countries in the European

:46:52.:46:56.

Union was to vote to leave the European Union? What a good idea.

:46:57.:47:02.

What would happen question we are not talking about some ten minute

:47:03.:47:06.

rule Bill ignored by the rest of the EU, even if it becomes law. What

:47:07.:47:10.

would happen then? Do you not think that would be most profound electric

:47:11.:47:17.

shocks through the wall system? Do you not think then that actually are

:47:18.:47:21.

leaders in Europe might just sit down for a moment, ponder about the

:47:22.:47:27.

fate of their construct and say that their construct is designed to

:47:28.:47:32.

achieve what the peoples of European want, which is peace and friendship?

:47:33.:47:37.

Peace and friendship which has fundamentally been created by Natal.

:47:38.:47:40.

And he recommend an excellent article written by my honourable

:47:41.:47:45.

friend which makes less precise point. Nato of the construct which

:47:46.:47:49.

we can indeed invalid because it is not a supernatural body. It is a

:47:50.:47:54.

treaty -based body but does not impose its laws and supremacy of the

:47:55.:47:57.

peoples of Europe. And indeed, what the peoples of Europe want, and what

:47:58.:48:01.

are all people want, is free trade. That is what we really want. And I

:48:02.:48:07.

believe that if we were to take this historic opportunity, if we were to

:48:08.:48:13.

take this historic opportunity in June, I do not think for one moment

:48:14.:48:16.

the world would falling, because the world is moving towards European

:48:17.:48:20.

free trade. The very worst thing that could happen is that we would

:48:21.:48:24.

have most favoured status and we would have to pay tariffs of 5% on

:48:25.:48:31.

most of our imports, or exports, rather, to the European Union. But

:48:32.:48:34.

that would not happen because there is a massive balance of trade

:48:35.:48:39.

surplus with regards... Against us. It is not gone to happen anyway. A

:48:40.:48:43.

deal could be construct it is on free trade. But I think that much

:48:44.:48:49.

more importantly than what we think what we want is what this might

:48:50.:48:56.

create in the rest of Europe, in Europe of nation states. A Europe

:48:57.:49:00.

which was the original vision of General Charles De Gaulle Airport a

:49:01.:49:03.

Europe where national parliaments have genuine powers and a genuine

:49:04.:49:11.

veto. That is our challenge, Mr Deputy Speaker, and there are

:49:12.:49:14.

millions of people in this country who will seize that challenge and

:49:15.:49:17.

fought for freedom in the referendum in June.

:49:18.:49:21.

CHEERING The question is that the honourable

:49:22.:49:24.

member have leave to bring in the bill. Ayes. Noes. I think we can let

:49:25.:49:34.

that one go. Who will bring the bill? Pat McFadden. Mr Stephen

:49:35.:49:43.

Kinnock, Greg Mulholland, Margaret Ritchie and myself.

:49:44.:50:14.

Transparency and accountability European Union. Second reading what

:50:15.:50:28.

day? 13th of May. 13th of May. OK, we are ready. We now come to the

:50:29.:50:35.

housing and planning Bill. The question is that the housing and

:50:36.:50:40.

planning Bill is on the order paper. As many are of the opinion, say

:50:41.:50:44.

''aye''. To the contrary, ''no''. The ayes have it. Question on the

:50:45.:50:51.

order paper. As many are of the opinion, say ''aye''. To the

:50:52.:50:55.

contrary, ''no''. The ayes have it. The court will now proceed to read

:50:56.:51:00.

the orders of the day. Housing and planning Bill consideration of Lords

:51:01.:51:08.

amendments. I must draw the House's attention to the fact that the

:51:09.:51:12.

financial privileges engaged by Lords amendments 37-58, 91, 184 and

:51:13.:51:20.

185 if the House agrees them I will call the appropriate entry to be

:51:21.:51:24.

made in the journal. I also remind you how is that certain of the

:51:25.:51:29.

motions relating to the Lords amendments are certified as relating

:51:30.:51:32.

exclusively to England or England and Wales, as set out on the

:51:33.:51:37.

selection paper. If the host of Eid is on any certified motion, a

:51:38.:51:41.

majority will be required for the motion to be passed. -- if he house

:51:42.:51:49.

divides on any certified. It will consider the other amendments and

:51:50.:51:52.

motions listed on the selection paper. I call the Minister to move

:51:53.:51:57.

to disagree with those Lords amendments. Mr Brandon Willis.

:51:58.:52:03.

Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I do beg to move that this House

:52:04.:52:07.

disagrees with the Lords on the amendment number one, and to move

:52:08.:52:12.

amendment one a endless. Mr Deputy Speaker, I am glad to be back at

:52:13.:52:16.

this dispatch box returning to the Housing and planning Bill and the

:52:17.:52:20.

House of Commons this afternoon. We are now in the final month of the

:52:21.:52:24.

first year of this Parliament. A parliament which has seen a majority

:52:25.:52:29.

Conservative Government returned to this House. A government with a

:52:30.:52:32.

clear mandate to deliver the largest programme of house building we are

:52:33.:52:38.

seeing for a generation. It seems immensely vetting to be at this

:52:39.:52:43.

dispatch box, having come from Mr Speaker's on garden, where we have

:52:44.:52:46.

got construction people showing the importance of house building across

:52:47.:52:49.

the country and the importance of winning more skill than to deliver

:52:50.:52:52.

the ones who are determined to build. We want to place

:52:53.:52:55.

homeownership within the reach of thousands of people who have never

:52:56.:52:59.

dreamt that they could achieve it. And ensure that in doing so we make

:53:00.:53:03.

the best use of social housing, so that it continues to support those

:53:04.:53:08.

most in need. Mr Deputy Speaker, the bill that comes before us today is a

:53:09.:53:12.

slightly different beast to the one that we passed to the other place

:53:13.:53:17.

earlier this year. Today, we will discuss rather more than the 56

:53:18.:53:22.

amendments we are traditionally used to seeing come from the other house.

:53:23.:53:26.

-- five or six amendments. The vast majority are all ask the House to

:53:27.:53:31.

accept. Debates in both houses have been reductive and have resulted in

:53:32.:53:33.

a number of changes which have improved the bill. So let me be very

:53:34.:53:39.

clear from the start. I heard many, mainly on the benches opposite, they

:53:40.:53:42.

that we should have waited for debating this bill. That in fact

:53:43.:53:46.

means that the government would have had to sit idly by, taking forms and

:53:47.:53:50.

waiting to double-check that the public elected us to do and what

:53:51.:53:53.

they are elected us today was actually what the public wanted. We

:53:54.:53:58.

are debating this bill early in this Parliament so that it can take

:53:59.:54:01.

effect as soon as possible. Getting those new homes built for those who

:54:02.:54:03.

aspire to have a home. And will be available to more

:54:04.:54:13.

people, including couples where one member is over 40, and our injured

:54:14.:54:18.

or bereaved service personnel. There are better protections, so the risk

:54:19.:54:21.

of properties being declared abandoned is reduced. Our plan to

:54:22.:54:24.

replace higher value properties, expected to be sold with at least

:54:25.:54:31.

one new property, is explicit on the bill! Bill. This means we could not

:54:32.:54:36.

be clearer about our intention to increase the number of affordable

:54:37.:54:39.

homes across our country. I will give way. Thank you. Will the

:54:40.:54:44.

minister just clarify what higher value homes, one that essentially

:54:45.:54:51.

means? How much? I will command to deal with that as I deal with the

:54:52.:54:57.

higher value assets as well as the other values before us today. We

:54:58.:55:03.

have increased protection we get a rural areas as well, recognising the

:55:04.:55:07.

unique value of our and the is a killer challenge of providing

:55:08.:55:12.

affordable homes there. There is, I trust, much with which we can agree

:55:13.:55:16.

with the other place here today. I will give way. Does he agree that

:55:17.:55:21.

the idea of more affordable homes for sale is extremely popular, and

:55:22.:55:25.

I'm getting requests from people who want to get on with it, and can the

:55:26.:55:29.

minister say hello to my now take the macro I am hoping it will not

:55:30.:55:32.

take is to long and the other house will accept the points we have made

:55:33.:55:35.

today, and maybe the opposition will come and vote with us to make sure

:55:36.:55:38.

we deliver those affordable homes for people to buy. He is quite

:55:39.:55:44.

right, and I will finish answering the last intervention. He is also

:55:45.:55:50.

right, I myself went to Twitter, and e-mails, and get a lot of people

:55:51.:55:54.

wondering whether we will be able to deliver 486% of the population who

:55:55.:55:56.

want the chance to own a home of their own. It is absolutely right we

:55:57.:56:00.

should be able to make sure affordable homes are about avoidable

:56:01.:56:03.

ownership as well as affordable rent. I way. The conclusion that the

:56:04.:56:12.

subcommittee came to, we pushed the minister had so what is impact

:56:13.:56:16.

assessment and financial assessment work of the full costs and

:56:17.:56:20.

implications of his policies about the sale of higher value council

:56:21.:56:27.

homes, whether it would deliver a replacement there, and a replacement

:56:28.:56:31.

of Housing Association property and all the analysis and brown field

:56:32.:56:35.

sites. When will that analysis be produced you macro Souris activist

:56:36.:56:38.

in criticism the other day, that there is no information for us to go

:56:39.:56:42.

on. I did think it was rather surprising to see the PAC review a

:56:43.:56:47.

policy that has not actually done through the house yet. It is making

:56:48.:56:51.

sure we deliver more homeownership to more people across the country,

:56:52.:56:54.

whether the 1.3 million people who want to get through the extension of

:56:55.:56:57.

right to buy, or the intervention with starter homes. I will give way.

:56:58.:57:02.

I thank the minister the giving way. He cited the report published last

:57:03.:57:07.

Friday, but just to be clear, we do it as a committee at issues in

:57:08.:57:14.

advance of them becoming issues, to make sure that taxpayers' money is

:57:15.:57:20.

protected in the process. He gives Gateway about taxpayers' the sale,

:57:21.:57:25.

but there is no one clarity how he will fund it, or whether they will

:57:26.:57:28.

be like for like replacement of homes he is forcing borrowers like

:57:29.:57:31.

mine to sell in order to pay for them. Willie promised now that he

:57:32.:57:33.

will protect long-term social housing to the people in London who

:57:34.:57:38.

can afford nothing else, certainly not a starter home? In terms of

:57:39.:57:43.

making sure we get good use of social housing stock, we should be

:57:44.:57:47.

getting boats later on today, on the high-income social tenants.

:57:48.:57:49.

I'm surprised at this year that interested in housing and making

:57:50.:57:52.

sure we're delivering more in this country, it is the first time she

:57:53.:57:55.

has directly engaged in this bill. One thing her colleague, who

:57:56.:57:59.

allegedly outlining about the Public Accounts Committee Buzz Lightyear

:58:00.:58:01.

report, was around the date behind it, and as I outlined at the end of

:58:02.:58:05.

last week, there are 6 million pieces of data packed into this

:58:06.:58:07.

report. I will give way and come back to the honourable lady.

:58:08.:58:14.

The the honourable gentleman has made a lot of affordable.

:58:15.:58:20.

Can he define affordable, and is it right that an affordable starter

:58:21.:58:23.

home in London would be round 450,000?

:58:24.:58:28.

I think the honourable gentleman might want to go back and have a

:58:29.:58:31.

look not just at the evidence that was given to the committee itself,

:58:32.:58:35.

the look through this bill, or indeed, the bill itself. Before and

:58:36.:58:39.

50,000 is a cap, and he should be clearer looking at the average price

:58:40.:58:43.

eight first-time buyer pays in this country, which is a chilly ?181,000.

:58:44.:58:48.

When you take that with a 20% discount, as we are talking about,

:58:49.:58:51.

and allow someone to buy it with a 5% deposit, you change

:58:52.:58:55.

affordability, and I'm hoping he will support their chance for more

:58:56.:58:58.

Londoners to get on the housing ladder. Equally, this is not the

:58:59.:59:01.

only thing we're doing to promote affordable homeownership. A scheme

:59:02.:59:05.

out there now for shared-ownership will also play an important bar,

:59:06.:59:09.

particularly somewhere like London. I thank him for giving way. Can I

:59:10.:59:15.

absolutely clarify, but the role of the Public Accounts Committee and my

:59:16.:59:18.

role as chair of that committee. My we had a forensics organisation I

:59:19.:59:21.

work investigation by the National Audit Office, and set out to help

:59:22.:59:26.

the taxpayer and government deliberately 's policy to make sure

:59:27.:59:28.

it is an affordable policy, that the key question that need to be in

:59:29.:59:31.

place before it can be delivered are actually worked on. This minister is

:59:32.:59:37.

being very cavalier, if I may say, in sweeping aside the findings of

:59:38.:59:42.

the report, which was well measured, cross-party, and unanimous.

:59:43.:59:48.

I would just say to the honourable lady, who I have huge respect for,

:59:49.:59:52.

that I was not sweeping it aside at all. I am more focused, and I make

:59:53.:59:55.

no apologies for this, and making sure we don't allow the cavalier

:59:56.:59:58.

attitude of the party opposite, who want to do down people took away who

:59:59.:00:02.

want the chance of a home of their own they can buy, and we are

:00:03.:00:05.

determined to deliver on our promise in the manifesto to deliver that. I

:00:06.:00:08.

will make progress and then give away some more. I believe there will

:00:09.:00:13.

be much we can agree on with the other players here today. I will be

:00:14.:00:16.

very clear. As we have just touched on, there are all -- also things we

:00:17.:00:23.

cannot. We are determined to deliver for Britain on our election

:00:24.:00:26.

promises. The manifesto which this government was elected that very

:00:27.:00:29.

clear statement of intent about the Bible extension of the right to buy,

:00:30.:00:34.

paid for by the sale of higher value housing, and 200,000 starter homes

:00:35.:00:36.

by the end of this Parliament will stop I give way. I think my

:00:37.:00:45.

honourable friend. -- thanks. People in my constituency look at many of

:00:46.:00:48.

the argument is made by the party opposite, saying, this is a

:00:49.:00:53.

completely London focused argument. What we want in Lancashire is

:00:54.:00:59.

starter homes for people at a discount. We want the extension of

:01:00.:01:03.

other affordable houses, and Will the minister just take the

:01:04.:01:05.

opportunity to agree with everyone who lives in Lancashire he says,

:01:06.:01:09.

let's get on with it, we want to buy and live in an affordable home. Lets

:01:10.:01:17.

not just talk about London. He makes a good point. Around the country, I

:01:18.:01:20.

find a real frustration about wanting to get on the policies this

:01:21.:01:23.

government has laid out, that we elected us to deliver, and seeing

:01:24.:01:27.

the party opposite and a stolen trouble at ago processor just about

:01:28.:01:31.

every opportunity. But also, for those understandably focused, it is

:01:32.:01:34.

a real pressure, and we have the honourable member for Richmond Park

:01:35.:01:37.

to thank for his pressure that we worked with him to deliver, making

:01:38.:01:43.

sure that in London, for every home sold, leased to matter will be

:01:44.:01:46.

built, driving a direct increase in housing supply. I must say, and with

:01:47.:01:52.

due respect to my Lancashire Colli, starter homes will work on the

:01:53.:01:55.

London boroughs as well. In my borough of Croydon, the

:01:56.:01:59.

average will be ?190,000, meaning a Help to Buy mortgage will need a

:02:00.:02:06.

?10,000 a bottle, and a couple, each earning ?22,500 can afford to buy.

:02:07.:02:10.

In Croydon, I think it will work. I think he has just highlighted how

:02:11.:02:13.

this policy is actually about delivering for people on the ground,

:02:14.:02:17.

while members opposite me want to pontificate here in the house. We

:02:18.:02:20.

will stay focused on delivering homes for people across our country

:02:21.:02:25.

and here in the capital. We have to tailor policies to fit

:02:26.:02:29.

all parts of the country, and that includes London. In inner London,

:02:30.:02:35.

starter homes will indeed come in at ?450,000. We had to speak the

:02:36.:02:39.

language of priorities. Is the minister really telling effect they

:02:40.:02:43.

had requires an income of ?77,000 a year, more than a member of

:02:44.:02:46.

Parliament, is a genuinely good use of public budget?

:02:47.:02:53.

I am tempted to use that inevitable phrase, I would refer the lady to

:02:54.:02:58.

your comments I gave it a few moments ago. As I said earlier, the

:02:59.:03:02.

price of first-time buyer pays is quite different. I have myself

:03:03.:03:08.

visited with the member for Richmond Park, home is already well below

:03:09.:03:11.

that price, which is a cap, not the prize these properties will be at. I

:03:12.:03:15.

expect to see them much lower. I will start with those properties and

:03:16.:03:18.

make a bit more progress on starter homes. With a minimum loan which

:03:19.:03:27.

requires a starter home the repeal of the 20% started a scan, reducing

:03:28.:03:33.

by 1% 80 of occupation, for a period of 20 years. The average first-time

:03:34.:03:36.

buyer, we should bear in mind, spends just under seven years in

:03:37.:03:40.

their home. The average in this country is only about seven years in

:03:41.:03:44.

a home. To us onto stable 20 years, therefore buying a home potentially

:03:45.:03:49.

in 30 and not being able to benefit from a discount with promise until

:03:50.:03:51.

they are 50, simply does not stack up. I will be very clear that we

:03:52.:03:55.

want to ensure starter homes are sold to those who are genuinely

:03:56.:03:59.

committed to living in an area, and not to those who think they want to

:04:00.:04:02.

secure a financial uplift by selling on quickly. But we want to make sure

:04:03.:04:08.

we're supporting mobility, so a balance must be struck. Whereas I

:04:09.:04:13.

propose we disagree with Amendment 1, I move in its place amendments

:04:14.:04:18.

one A, one B and one CE, which provide a power to implement a

:04:19.:04:22.

tapered approach to resale. The longer you live in a property, the

:04:23.:04:27.

more value you will gain. This was proposed by the other place, but our

:04:28.:04:30.

amendment provides that the sector is a state can make regulations on

:04:31.:04:34.

the length of the period, and on the details of how the taper will

:04:35.:04:37.

operate, so that we can make sure it is effective and delivers more

:04:38.:04:41.

people in the real world. These amendments set out to models,

:04:42.:04:46.

potential models for the operation of a taper. Example, one starter

:04:47.:04:50.

home is sold, the first-time buyer, if there is a discount to come back,

:04:51.:04:55.

must pay a proportion of a discount to a specified party. This is the

:04:56.:05:00.

approach suggested by the other place, and I can see the logic, as a

:05:01.:05:04.

body could then use those funds to build more affordable homes. As part

:05:05.:05:10.

of our consultation on starter homes regulations, we seek the views of

:05:11.:05:14.

developers, lenders and local authorities and how such a taper

:05:15.:05:18.

would operate. We strongly believe we should settle littering gateman

:05:19.:05:21.

with the sector, rather than placing the detail of restrictions on

:05:22.:05:25.

legislation. I'm confident this is the best way for us to meet our

:05:26.:05:28.

manifesto commitment on starter homes.

:05:29.:05:30.

I will give way. Thank you. I thank my honourable

:05:31.:05:41.

friend. Could he outlined the government position in relation to

:05:42.:05:45.

the taper? Will list the original taper, or a one size fits all for

:05:46.:05:52.

the whole of the UK? Clearly, as outlined, the prices of properties

:05:53.:05:57.

vary quite considerably, and the important thing here is to make sure

:05:58.:06:01.

that they are used for the benefit of people to actually live in.

:06:02.:06:07.

He makes a very good point, and gives a good example of why the

:06:08.:06:11.

strictures of legislation do not work for this, and why it is

:06:12.:06:15.

important for us to complete that consultation, running till May the

:06:16.:06:18.

18th, to allow feedback to come through and deal with this in

:06:19.:06:22.

regulations. This is a proportional discount, and the value differential

:06:23.:06:26.

is dealt with in the way the percentages would work. I will give

:06:27.:06:28.

way. He will remember that during the

:06:29.:06:32.

committee stage of the bill, back at the end of last year, we had a

:06:33.:06:38.

number of exchanges, and as a result of changes to the bill, housing

:06:39.:06:43.

cooperatives that owner properties are largely exempt from many of the

:06:44.:06:50.

provisions of the bill. -- own their properties. However, those that

:06:51.:06:54.

manage properties and out of local authorities will still be badly hit

:06:55.:06:57.

by many of the provisions in the bill. Potentially, it will be

:06:58.:07:02.

housing co-op properties that will be part of the 100 plus thousands

:07:03.:07:09.

poverty is currently owned by councils -- properties, that are

:07:10.:07:11.

likely to be lost as part of the impact of this bill, and I wonder if

:07:12.:07:15.

at this stage, whether he might be willing to give a commitment before

:07:16.:07:20.

the Bill goes back to the other place, to look again at the specific

:07:21.:07:27.

impact on housing co-op 's of those that manage properties in behalf of

:07:28.:07:30.

councils. I would say to the honourable

:07:31.:07:34.

gentleman that I will come on to talk about the provision in a

:07:35.:07:37.

moment, but we will be very clear about making sure that there is a

:07:38.:07:40.

new home built for every home sold. I give way.

:07:41.:07:47.

How much consultation has he actually taken place, with the

:07:48.:07:51.

voluntary sector on one hand and local authorities on the other, in

:07:52.:07:54.

relation to the impact? He knows as well as I do that obviously, his

:07:55.:07:58.

department will have done some kind of impact assessment on the cost of

:07:59.:08:04.

viability. With starter homes, obviously, there

:08:05.:08:08.

is a very clear position. We have worked across the cities. A lot of

:08:09.:08:15.

areas are very keen, as you have heard, for us to get on with

:08:16.:08:18.

delivering this and making sure we are starting to get more affordable

:08:19.:08:21.

homes out there for people who want to buy them. So those are simply not

:08:22.:08:24.

been there in this country before. On the affordability question, is he

:08:25.:08:34.

aware that the average deposit in London is ?91,000 for a property? I

:08:35.:08:38.

would say to the honourable lady that is why it is important that we

:08:39.:08:42.

have extended and changed it so that we now have the London Help To Buy,

:08:43.:08:45.

which changes that. It is important that we have those starter homes

:08:46.:08:50.

with that 20% discount and white shirt ownership is important, why we

:08:51.:08:54.

are determined to deliver 135,000 more assured ownership homes. The

:08:55.:09:04.

prospective went out, this completely changes the

:09:05.:09:10.

affordability. I thank him for giving way to stop one of the law's

:09:11.:09:16.

amendments -- Lords amendments says that if social housing is sold,

:09:17.:09:20.

there is another social house built in the local area in which it was

:09:21.:09:23.

sold. If the Minister agreeing with that? I will come onto deal with

:09:24.:09:29.

high-value assets in just a few moments. We are just want to finish

:09:30.:09:34.

dealing with the issue of starter homes, whereas she has delivered

:09:35.:09:38.

high-value assets. That pledges and there to deliver to my columns for

:09:39.:09:41.

every home built, which is now, thanks to him, on the base of the

:09:42.:09:45.

bill to stop at I will come very specifically to that point of a few

:09:46.:09:48.

moments. Our manifesto was very clear. This House was clear when it

:09:49.:09:53.

a majority of 91 to this bill's second reading. We will deliver

:09:54.:09:56.

starter homes. And we will deliver the number we promised. To the point

:09:57.:10:01.

of starter homes and affordability, the honourable lady opposite

:10:02.:10:06.

mentioned about the deposit but a very big cash cost for any first

:10:07.:10:11.

time buyer, or any buyer, is stamp duty and so will he confirm that on

:10:12.:10:14.

a starter home the stamp duty would apply to the discounted price, and

:10:15.:10:20.

so would also be 20% lower? He makes a very good point. The stamp duty

:10:21.:10:23.

applies to the price paid for the property, so it would apply at

:10:24.:10:27.

reduced price, in itself making a further benefit for people buying a

:10:28.:10:35.

new home. I have to be very clear, we are absolutely determined to

:10:36.:10:37.

deliver starter homes any number that we promised to help first-time

:10:38.:10:40.

buyers, the worst hit part of the home buying sector from Labour's

:10:41.:10:44.

group recession. The other place in passing amendments it- men actually

:10:45.:10:48.

seek to stop us. This House should not stand for that. Amendment 8-9

:10:49.:10:54.

remove the power to start a national -- set a national requirement on the

:10:55.:10:57.

bill. The other place replaced this power with a local said requirement,

:10:58.:11:01.

which would be effective only where local authorities have complete

:11:02.:11:04.

studies of local housing need and viability. We hear a lot from local

:11:05.:11:12.

authorities about trying to secure rental properties, but I think in

:11:13.:11:18.

this country we have a kind of right to own our own home and this

:11:19.:11:20.

Government is doing that and delivering that through this bill.

:11:21.:11:24.

He makes a very good point. Despite the comments from a sedentary

:11:25.:11:29.

position for the member from Tottenham. He highlights why it is

:11:30.:11:31.

so important that we cannot wait and should not wait for 336 different

:11:32.:11:37.

planning authorities to each undertake local needs and viability

:11:38.:11:40.

assessments before action on starter homes is even taken. These

:11:41.:11:45.

amendments would hurt the very people we are here and trying to

:11:46.:11:49.

help the hardest. First-time buyers, in just a moment, first time buyers

:11:50.:11:54.

would yet again see their chance of homeownership kicked firmly into the

:11:55.:11:56.

long grass by these proposals. That may be what the party opposite once

:11:57.:12:06.

but we do not. Happy to give way. I want to work out whether starter

:12:07.:12:08.

homes are going to be in addition to other homes that would have been

:12:09.:12:12.

built or instead of. The select Committee unanimously agreed the

:12:13.:12:18.

following words," starter homes should not be built at the expense

:12:19.:12:24.

of other forms of tenure. Where the need exists, it is vital but hopes

:12:25.:12:27.

for affordable rent or thought to reflect local needs." Will he

:12:28.:12:35.

confirm whether the bill, and he wants it to be water, starter homes

:12:36.:12:38.

would be the priority and would be shot and it displays affordable

:12:39.:12:42.

homes for rent as part of one of six agreements? I would say to the

:12:43.:12:47.

chairman of the Select Committee we have been very clear from the

:12:48.:12:50.

beginning. We need to see a shift in this country. We have had this

:12:51.:12:54.

farcical situation when we in this place talk about affordable homes,

:12:55.:12:57.

it only refers to homes that people can rent. 86% of our population want

:12:58.:13:02.

to buy their own home. Therefore it is absolutely right that affordable

:13:03.:13:07.

homes should include homes that are affordable to buy. We make no

:13:08.:13:11.

apologies for creating a new product and turbo-charging a new product to

:13:12.:13:16.

make sure that we get 200,000 built over the course of this Parliament.

:13:17.:13:19.

We already have many hundreds of thousands of homes across this

:13:20.:13:22.

country that are in the rental sector. We need to make sure we are

:13:23.:13:25.

getting the chance to first-time buyers. To be blunt, exactly what we

:13:26.:13:30.

said, what we put on the tin in the general election manifesto, we will

:13:31.:13:33.

deliver on our mandate to deliver starter homes. I am just want to

:13:34.:13:36.

come with this point. We will deliver on that mandate to deliver

:13:37.:13:40.

200,000 starters homes, making sure delivering homes for first empires

:13:41.:13:45.

with at least a 20% discount on that market price. We have also

:13:46.:13:49.

recognised in discussing the discussions in the other place that

:13:50.:13:53.

local exemption site may require additional exemption on starter

:13:54.:13:57.

homes. These details should be on the face of the bill. -- additional

:13:58.:14:07.

queries. My noble friend Baroness Williams of Trafford committed to

:14:08.:14:10.

bring back an amendment to give councils local discretion on rural

:14:11.:14:13.

exception sites. I am pleased to be able to honour this commitment in

:14:14.:14:20.

amendment 10a. I would also say that when you talk to developers and

:14:21.:14:23.

local authorities around sites around the country, one of the

:14:24.:14:26.

benefits of starter homes is we may be able to see more affordable

:14:27.:14:29.

housing delivered because what this does allow is for the developers to

:14:30.:14:32.

actually deliver more. I spoke to a number of deliver, developers who

:14:33.:14:36.

have said the difference starter homes could make is the ability to

:14:37.:14:40.

deliver 5-10% more affordable housing in some developments. Mr

:14:41.:14:45.

Deputy Speaker, there was a lot of discussion, both here and in the

:14:46.:14:50.

other place, about our plans to deliver the ground-breaking

:14:51.:14:53.

voluntary Right to Buy agreement for the sale of higher value housing.

:14:54.:14:55.

Another manifesto commitment passed from this place to the other place,

:14:56.:15:00.

another change we are discussing today. Amendments 37 and 184 would

:15:01.:15:06.

mean considerable delay to receiving payments from local authorities and

:15:07.:15:10.

therefore to delivering our manifesto commitment to extend the

:15:11.:15:13.

right to Buy to housing association tenants. We remain convinced that

:15:14.:15:18.

the determination is the most appropriate way of setting up

:15:19.:15:21.

information about the payment a local authority will be expected to

:15:22.:15:24.

make to the Secretary of State in respect of their higher value

:15:25.:15:27.

housing. The key elements, which will determine how much an authority

:15:28.:15:32.

will be expected to pay, are set out on the face of the bill. This

:15:33.:15:34.

includes the housing to be taken into account and indeed the

:15:35.:15:38.

definition of vacancy. The government has listened carefully to

:15:39.:15:41.

the argument is honourable members made when the bill was last debated

:15:42.:15:44.

and the contributions of all those in the other place. We have amended

:15:45.:15:50.

the bill to ensure local authorities are not disproportionately affected

:15:51.:15:53.

by these plans. The definition of higher value and the types of value

:15:54.:15:57.

which are to be excluded -- property which are to be excluded are to be

:15:58.:16:01.

set out in the conditions and therefore subject to further

:16:02.:16:03.

Parliamentary scrutiny. I want to be clear with the House once again. The

:16:04.:16:09.

opposition bench and any other place or also clear. They did not

:16:10.:16:13.

officially closes enabling the voluntary Right to Buy tripled. They

:16:14.:16:16.

acknowledged a mandate for funding. However, these amendments will

:16:17.:16:19.

impact seriously hamper our ability to implement it and so should be

:16:20.:16:24.

returned straightaway. Likewise with amendment 47, which is extremely

:16:25.:16:29.

restrictive. It prevents government also from considering other local

:16:30.:16:32.

authorities can actually deliver the housing that is required. We want to

:16:33.:16:37.

make sure that government can enter agreements with local authorities

:16:38.:16:39.

around the local needs. But by focusing solely on social housing,

:16:40.:16:43.

it prevents the agreement process from recognising that flexibility

:16:44.:16:47.

will be needed to respond to the diverse housing needs in the

:16:48.:16:52.

country. We authority heard about different needs of different places

:16:53.:16:56.

from honourable friends this afternoon and that other types of

:16:57.:16:58.

localising the better meet localising lead in any given area.

:16:59.:17:02.

Do find it difficult to listen to those who accuse us of not being

:17:03.:17:06.

local last waltz the table amendments like this, mandating an

:17:07.:17:11.

old-fashioned top-down approach. We want to make sure we give local

:17:12.:17:16.

authorities with particular housing needs in their area the opportunity

:17:17.:17:21.

to reach this book agreements about the delivery of new homes in areas.

:17:22.:17:30.

I am still as confused as at the beginning of the surveyed and the

:17:31.:17:33.

select committee hearings. The Minister has made a reasonable

:17:34.:17:36.

height and I thoroughly agree with him, that it should be the local

:17:37.:17:38.

authorities in the areas to determine the competition of homes

:17:39.:17:42.

to be built as part of 106 agreements. How does that square

:17:43.:17:45.

with a party who says priority should be given to starter homes and

:17:46.:17:50.

will build a 200,000, irrespective of the building of other sorts of

:17:51.:17:54.

housing. What we are talking about is what happens with the sale of the

:17:55.:17:57.

higher value properties, which is actually slightly different. We want

:17:58.:18:03.

to make sure that we give local authorities with particular housing

:18:04.:18:06.

needs an area the opportunity to read this book agreements about the

:18:07.:18:08.

delivery of different height of new homes in the area with government.

:18:09.:18:12.

If local authorities can demonstrate, for example, a clear

:18:13.:18:16.

need for new affordable homes, the agreement with them, subject to

:18:17.:18:20.

value for money considerations and evidence of a strong track record of

:18:21.:18:23.

housing delivery, we and they should be able to make that case. That is

:18:24.:18:27.

important for areas where I have visited such as Bath and Oxford and

:18:28.:18:31.

when I met leaders in Cambridge, they want that flexibility to get

:18:32.:18:38.

the right deal for their areas. I really very much hope that the

:18:39.:18:46.

higher value homes will have flexible at particularly warehouses

:18:47.:18:50.

prices are particular higher law and I am delighted that you have taken

:18:51.:18:53.

cognizance of our needs for various people and their various different

:18:54.:18:57.

areas in order that the local leaders met. She makes a very good

:18:58.:19:03.

point about the importance of the flexible to. -- the local need is

:19:04.:19:07.

met. In London, parties have asked for the ability to work together to

:19:08.:19:11.

deliver on this front. We need new homes built in this country and this

:19:12.:19:14.

amendment would limit the ability of the government and local authorities

:19:15.:19:17.

working with us to ensure that the right mix of housing is delivered as

:19:18.:19:20.

quickly and efficiently as possible. I thank him for giving way and he

:19:21.:19:24.

has been incredibly generous. As he will know from his visit to both a

:19:25.:19:29.

couple of weeks ago, of course, we do not have high-value assets. We do

:19:30.:19:33.

have a high cost of housing in our area. Given what has been announced

:19:34.:19:39.

earlier in relation to the shift from high-value assets to higher

:19:40.:19:45.

value assets, which will not be applicable, what ways can our

:19:46.:19:48.

authority, combined with other authorities, bid for different funds

:19:49.:19:51.

following from the budget announcement question might he makes

:19:52.:19:54.

a good point. When I visited him and made his constituency in Bath I saw

:19:55.:20:05.

a good example of a local authority understanding of local needs.

:20:06.:20:08.

Whether that is working with government to bid for the ?4.7

:20:09.:20:11.

billion in the shared ownership fund or the 1.2 billion for Brian Field

:20:12.:20:18.

funding starter homes specifically available. -- Brian Field. Or

:20:19.:20:25.

working with other local authorities around the income they may be able

:20:26.:20:28.

to use to deliver from higher value homes. It is actually going to have

:20:29.:20:31.

that flexibility, to understand the different areas cross-party want but

:20:32.:20:38.

Flex ability to deliver it. I am going to turn to amendments 54, 55,

:20:39.:20:43.

57 and 58, all of which I disagree with. Amendment 54 makes policy to

:20:44.:20:48.

implement the resource rents laundry. It is, as my noble friend

:20:49.:20:51.

said on the other place, the plight of the male of the privacy of their

:20:52.:20:56.

size. Local authorities can already operate the quality on a voluntary

:20:57.:21:00.

basis and we are not aware of any that have done so. To put it simply,

:21:01.:21:04.

this is a wrecking amendment and this has should treat as such. The

:21:05.:21:12.

policy must also apply consistently. It would not be right for tenants in

:21:13.:21:16.

certain areas to face possible rent increases while tenants in a

:21:17.:21:18.

neighbouring area do not so the amendment completely undermines the

:21:19.:21:22.

government's in putting in place a consistent approach and using the

:21:23.:21:26.

funds raised to reduce the national debt is that which we inherited from

:21:27.:21:29.

the party opposite and it was substantially -- would substantially

:21:30.:21:35.

reduce the deficit of this. Perhaps she will apologise for the deficit.

:21:36.:21:41.

Westminster Council announced in 2012 that they were extremely keen

:21:42.:21:47.

to introduce a version of this and charge the higher earning tenants a

:21:48.:21:51.

higher rent and I've never done so because they have never found a way

:21:52.:21:54.

of being able to introduce such a scheme which was not ridiculously

:21:55.:22:00.

bureaucratic costly and acted as a work disincentive. The honourable

:22:01.:22:03.

lady I am sure will be interested to hear what I'm going to see in few

:22:04.:22:08.

minutes around how this practice could work but also make sure it

:22:09.:22:14.

always pays to work. We have a package and statement of intent to

:22:15.:22:18.

injure the policy is there and that does not damage the incentive to

:22:19.:22:21.

find and keep work. In addition, we have committed to allowing local

:22:22.:22:27.

authorities to regain reasonable administration costs and my

:22:28.:22:29.

officials are working with the sector to a stab at an approach to a

:22:30.:22:32.

commendation which would minimise the costs. Amendment 55 seats to set

:22:33.:22:39.

on the face of the bill the amount of the taper at 10%. -- with the

:22:40.:22:45.

sector to establish an approach which would minimise the cost. An

:22:46.:22:51.

extra ?20 in rent for every pound earned up of the income threshold

:22:52.:22:54.

would mean for example that a household earning over the ?31,000

:22:55.:22:57.

threshold would contribute just a few pounds per week in additional

:22:58.:23:02.

rent. This level recognises the importance of protecting work

:23:03.:23:05.

incentives but is a fair contribution. It is important that

:23:06.:23:08.

we retain the flexibility to set out the detail of the deeper in

:23:09.:23:13.

secondary legislation. We want to keep the position under review.

:23:14.:23:17.

Putting the detail on the face of the bill prevents us from doing

:23:18.:23:21.

this. We have confirmed the regulations will be subject to the

:23:22.:23:24.

affirmative procedure, which I am sure will be welcomed by the House.

:23:25.:23:26.

They were before being another chance to debate these items before

:23:27.:23:31.

they come into force. Amendment 57 sets on the face of the bill higher

:23:32.:23:36.

income thresholds, totally undermining the printable that

:23:37.:23:39.

social tenants on higher incomes should start to contribute a fair

:23:40.:23:45.

level of rent at the threshold of ?31,000 and ?40,000 in London. We

:23:46.:23:48.

have listen to concerns about the policy and taken a number of steps

:23:49.:23:52.

as a result. There will be an automatic exemption for any

:23:53.:23:56.

household in receipt of housing benefit and universal credit. The

:23:57.:23:59.

definition of household will not include income from non-dependent

:24:00.:24:02.

children. 18-year-old starting his first job, for example, and certain

:24:03.:24:08.

state benefits such as tax credits, disability living allowance and

:24:09.:24:11.

independence payments will not count towards the calculation of income.

:24:12.:24:16.

We have also confirmed the officials will be supported by a taper which

:24:17.:24:19.

will ensure the households towards the start of the officials will see

:24:20.:24:24.

their rents rise by a few pounds each week.

:24:25.:24:29.

Thank you. I welcome those safeguards he is setting out. Does

:24:30.:24:34.

he not agree that, considering many of those on the opposite side idea

:24:35.:24:38.

that the rich should pay more, it is rather puzzling that in this case,

:24:39.:24:42.

they seem to oppose that idea? Well, my honourable friend and neighbour,

:24:43.:24:48.

indeed, may say very interesting point. I think people reading

:24:49.:24:51.

Hansard may want to read their own conclusions about that means. We are

:24:52.:24:56.

very clear that the social tenants on higher incomes contribute more in

:24:57.:25:00.

rent where they can afford to do so, but also mindful that the policy

:25:01.:25:03.

should protect work incentives. I will give way.

:25:04.:25:09.

Thank you for giving way. I take great offence to the suggestion that

:25:10.:25:15.

people on fixed income, for example, pensioners at ?40,000 a year in my

:25:16.:25:18.

constituency, would you consider rich, or that they would actually

:25:19.:25:23.

have any other housing option. -- would be considered rich. If you are

:25:24.:25:26.

a certain age with a fixed income, you cannot rent privately. Rent

:25:27.:25:30.

would be over ?1500, or certainly a lot more for a two-bedroom flat. You

:25:31.:25:34.

cannot buy, with the average property price is 682,000, and would

:25:35.:25:38.

not qualify for a starter home even if wanting somewhere that size. Does

:25:39.:25:42.

the minister not acknowledge that this is invidious, in attacking some

:25:43.:25:45.

of those people who really don't have a great deal of money?

:25:46.:25:48.

I don't think that recognises the policy as it stands at all. The

:25:49.:25:52.

policy as it stands is about, as people earn more, they pay if you

:25:53.:25:56.

pounds a week more, which I don't think is unreasonable at all, and

:25:57.:25:58.

naturally makes sure we are making the best use of the social housing

:25:59.:26:04.

stock we have possible. I give way. It is difficult to know where to

:26:05.:26:06.

start with the honourable gentleman. He talks about paying an extra few

:26:07.:26:11.

pounds more. This is nonsense. What this actually is is a tax on

:26:12.:26:16.

aspiration, and the idea that a family in London earning 40 grand a

:26:17.:26:21.

year is rich is baloney. It really does cost an awful lot to live in

:26:22.:26:25.

this wonderful capital city of ours, something that the minister fails to

:26:26.:26:28.

grasp. I would suggest that if she reads

:26:29.:26:33.

actually what is in the Bill and in the amendment, she will appreciate

:26:34.:26:36.

that we're not suggesting that people over that income suddenly

:26:37.:26:39.

don't have that home or have to move, we're saying that as people

:26:40.:26:43.

earn more money, they contribute more into the system, which actually

:26:44.:26:46.

is quite reasonable to do, and actually makes sure that we are

:26:47.:26:50.

making the best use of those properties for people who need them

:26:51.:26:53.

most. The package we have announced actually achieves both tenets of

:26:54.:27:01.

making sure we have a policy where we protect work incentives, and on

:27:02.:27:05.

that basis, I cannot support the amendment, nor amendment 58, which

:27:06.:27:08.

raises the income threshold by the consumer Price index. I hope we will

:27:09.:27:14.

ask the house to agree. Did they

:27:15.:27:19.

we have very clear evidence from housing associations would cost more

:27:20.:27:23.

to minister the skin and they were get in on returns from extra rent.

:27:24.:27:27.

Can the government present a very clear analysis of what the

:27:28.:27:30.

administration costs of this scheme will be, particularly for people on

:27:31.:27:33.

variable incomes, with varying from going up and down each week and

:27:34.:27:37.

Aaron going up and down, an enormous amount of administration to go with

:27:38.:27:41.

the skin that he is now proposing? I think he is also missing the point

:27:42.:27:45.

that what we also see with this is then is across the system. There are

:27:46.:27:48.

people in London cities and other parts of the country who are in the

:27:49.:27:52.

private rented sector, who are in the private rented sector on these

:27:53.:27:55.

salaries and salaries and higher and lower, wondering why people earning

:27:56.:28:03.

over 40, and actually, secretaries of State Europe in social rented

:28:04.:28:06.

housing and salaries of ?25,000, union leaders and salaries over

:28:07.:28:10.

?100,000, and there are tens of thousands of people out there

:28:11.:28:14.

earning over 40 or ?50,000 a year, benefiting from things that are not

:28:15.:28:21.

fair to people with those kind of salaries of like an opportunity.

:28:22.:28:26.

I give way. Thank you. I thank him for giving way. Would my honourable

:28:27.:28:30.

friend not actually relate to the house at the reality of social

:28:31.:28:37.

housing for rent in London and beyond is for people that are

:28:38.:28:41.

homeless, to start with? And actually, there is a huge queue of

:28:42.:28:46.

people waiting for a socially rented property, and it is totally

:28:47.:28:50.

unacceptable for people that are on relatively high salaries to occupy

:28:51.:28:53.

socially rented rocker tees, when there is such a huge queue and such

:28:54.:29:00.

huge demand? -- rented properties. My honourable friend brings to key

:29:01.:29:04.

focus one of the problems of the deficit in housing that this

:29:05.:29:08.

government inherited in 2010, and not only did we see the lowest level

:29:09.:29:11.

of house building and the gentleman's party opposite since

:29:12.:29:17.

1923, but in 13 years, they built less homes to their councils and

:29:18.:29:20.

social housing than we have done in the last 4-5 years. There is a huge

:29:21.:29:25.

mound to do, and more opportunities for people to have homes right

:29:26.:29:30.

across all ten years, whether shared-ownership, through rental,

:29:31.:29:33.

private rental or otherwise, as well as affordable rent, and indeed,

:29:34.:29:35.

making sure that people have a chance to get on and achieve their

:29:36.:29:40.

aspirations, that 86% of the public, to achieve that aspiration to buy a

:29:41.:29:45.

home of their own. The house may well be glad that I once ate to

:29:46.:29:48.

every government amendment before us today. You might be pleased about

:29:49.:29:55.

that. Many are minor and very technical in nature, and if I spoke

:29:56.:29:59.

to the more, much as we may all enjoy it, there will be some who

:30:00.:30:01.

will not thank me, because we might still be here by prorogation. But of

:30:02.:30:07.

the makes this works better for those who them and these policies on

:30:08.:30:10.

the ground. The amendments are there because the government has listened

:30:11.:30:13.

to the debate and taken action as a result. Where we have done this,

:30:14.:30:15.

where we have strengthened the ability for people to own their own

:30:16.:30:21.

home and get Britain building again, building a 25% increase in building

:30:22.:30:24.

we saw in the last year, my bit to move the house agrees to those

:30:25.:30:29.

changes that the other place have made, but I also want to send a very

:30:30.:30:33.

strong message, that this government will not slow the pace of house

:30:34.:30:37.

building. We will increase it. We will not take away people's dream of

:30:38.:30:42.

home ownership. We will inspire it. Am I will deliver our manifesto

:30:43.:30:45.

commitments. And that they respond to this debate, and looking at the

:30:46.:30:50.

seating arrangement, I suspect the honourable lady may respond, I hope

:30:51.:30:55.

the opposition will ask themselves why they stand against our mandate

:30:56.:30:58.

to boost homeownership and supply, something the people of this country

:30:59.:31:01.

want and expect to see. Because while they cluster with political

:31:02.:31:06.

posturing after the abysmal mess of housing that they left, we will

:31:07.:31:08.

remain focused on building homes across our country, across all ten

:31:09.:31:13.

years, and deliver an increase in housing supply and homeownership. It

:31:14.:31:17.

is what we promised and what we will deliver, and I beg to move.

:31:18.:31:23.

The question is, that this house is agrees with the Lords in their

:31:24.:31:27.

Amendment 1. .

:31:28.:31:31.

I want to begin by thanking the lordships for the amazing work they

:31:32.:31:39.

did on this ill. 13 defeats, and a string of concessions means some of

:31:40.:31:43.

the sharpest edges have been knocked off a very bad will. -- Bill --

:31:44.:31:51.

bill. It remains an extraordinary piece of legislation. Concerns have

:31:52.:31:56.

been voiced by pricing experts, charities, has builders, mortgage

:31:57.:31:58.

lenders, and conservatives across a range of council leaders, MPs and

:31:59.:32:03.

peers. Doubts about the legislation matter, but even more important, the

:32:04.:32:09.

deeper doubts on all fronts about whether the party opposite are

:32:10.:32:12.

competent to fix our housing crisis. And with good reason. Since 2010,

:32:13.:32:19.

homeownership has fallen, homelessness and rough sleeping have

:32:20.:32:24.

doubled, private rents have soared, housing benefit costs have

:32:25.:32:27.

ballooned, and during the last Parliament, fewer new homes were

:32:28.:32:31.

built than under any peacetime government since the 1920s. I will

:32:32.:32:36.

give way in just a moment. This bill does little to tackle the

:32:37.:32:42.

overall housing shortage or produce more housing across all ten years,

:32:43.:32:50.

including housing to rent as well as Dubai, and with the exception of

:32:51.:32:53.

rogue landlords, provisions does nothing improve the private rented

:32:54.:32:59.

sector that so many people now rely on. -- to rent as well as to buy.

:33:00.:33:04.

Peggy the giving way. Which he talks about the portability prices, that

:33:05.:33:07.

you think there's any part played in that by the 200% increase in house

:33:08.:33:14.

prices between 1997 and 2008 that as a result of a woefully badly

:33:15.:33:18.

regulated mortgage sector? Yes, I think as the honourable

:33:19.:33:23.

gentleman will know, we produced many, many, over 1 million more

:33:24.:33:27.

homeowners in the time of the Labour government. What this bill shows is

:33:28.:33:34.

that the country has no long-term housing plan for the country. I will

:33:35.:33:38.

give way. I am grateful for giving way. Would

:33:39.:33:42.

she accept that the reason the private rents are increasingly hired

:33:43.:33:44.

because we haven't built enough homes?

:33:45.:33:49.

Precisely, and the question is, will this bill deliver it, and we don't

:33:50.:33:55.

think it will. Faced with this bad bill, a ridiculous timetable and

:33:56.:33:59.

long sittings, the other place has not only done a excellent job

:34:00.:34:02.

scrutinising the bill, but also improved it, to make it slightly

:34:03.:34:08.

more palatable. If only the government had had the grace to

:34:09.:34:11.

accept changes with regard to starter homes, paid to stay, and

:34:12.:34:16.

sale of council housing that they are resisting today, it could have

:34:17.:34:22.

been improved further. Turning to the specific amendments, I want to

:34:23.:34:26.

deal with those the government is voting against first. With regard to

:34:27.:34:30.

Lords Amendment one, we do agree with the principle of the Lord Best

:34:31.:34:37.

amendment, and think it is important that it starter homes are resold

:34:38.:34:40.

within a given period, a payback of this kind should occur. We accept

:34:41.:34:45.

that the government have brought forward a compromise which appears

:34:46.:34:49.

to do this to a degree, although we would still have a preference for

:34:50.:34:52.

the discount to remain in perpetuity, as this is a better use

:34:53.:35:01.

of scarce public resources. Moving on to Amendment 9, tabled by Lord

:35:02.:35:08.

speech, Carsley and Canada, it is quite reasonable in asking that an

:35:09.:35:14.

English planning authority may grant planning permission for a

:35:15.:35:17.

residential development, having had regard to the provision of starter

:35:18.:35:20.

homes based on its own assessment of local housing need and viability.

:35:21.:35:27.

The minister will know that one of the greatest concerns about the

:35:28.:35:30.

starter homes initiative, and there are many, is that they will be

:35:31.:35:35.

imposed and specified numbers required by central big cat from

:35:36.:35:39.

government, regardless of whether they are needed in the quantities

:35:40.:35:45.

needed. -- central diktats. I will give way in just a moment. Amendment

:35:46.:35:50.

9 is a very local list one, and seeks to give a role to local

:35:51.:35:55.

authorities in assessing the need for starter homes and their impact

:35:56.:35:58.

on the viability of local development. I give way. C says she

:35:59.:36:04.

is concerned with the government big dating the number of starter homes

:36:05.:36:10.

that will be built in any area. -- dictating. Gucci name any area in

:36:11.:36:13.

this country where she believes the homes sold to 20% discount on not

:36:14.:36:18.

being sold by buyers? The honourable gentleman makes a

:36:19.:36:24.

reasonable point, but the point that I am making is not only that starter

:36:25.:36:29.

homes will be needed, but other types of homes, particularly homes

:36:30.:36:35.

for social rents, which is why it should be, the numbers should be

:36:36.:36:40.

subject to local determination and not central diktats. I will give way

:36:41.:36:44.

in just a moment. I want to make regress. To everyone except the

:36:45.:36:48.

government, it appears eminently sensible that the need for starter

:36:49.:36:52.

homes is assessed locally and then delivered, rather than ordered from

:36:53.:36:56.

on high, and most likely to the exclusion of genuinely affordable

:36:57.:37:00.

housing for rent or equity share. The amendment is not a block on

:37:01.:37:04.

starter homes, but a requirement that they are part of a local

:37:05.:37:11.

housing mix. I give way. She needs to concede that there are

:37:12.:37:14.

suspicions on the side of the house that her opposition to starter homes

:37:15.:37:17.

has an ideological opposition. But that aside, she would be in a much

:37:18.:37:23.

stronger position were she to concede that a very significant

:37:24.:37:27.

number of local planning authorities have not brought forward in a timely

:37:28.:37:30.

and appropriate fashion, local district plans, county structure

:37:31.:37:33.

plan is, so the government is forced to take action to tackle the housing

:37:34.:37:41.

prices to which she refers. -- the housing crisis. Thank you, but

:37:42.:37:43.

surely the honourable gentleman must agree that the way of dealing with

:37:44.:37:49.

that is through the local plan making system, and indeed, one

:37:50.:37:52.

amendment we might deal with later on in our discussions this evening

:37:53.:37:56.

is the requirement that is finally being placed on local government by

:37:57.:38:00.

this government to produce a local plant. I give way.

:38:01.:38:06.

I am very grateful. She's making an important point about localism. But

:38:07.:38:10.

isn't it the case that we also need the local authority to determine

:38:11.:38:15.

what is truly affordable for their local housing market? And I notice

:38:16.:38:19.

that the minister wasn't so forthcoming about what his

:38:20.:38:23.

definition of affordability was. He said in reply to our honourable

:38:24.:38:27.

friend from Westminster and Kensington North that these homes in

:38:28.:38:33.

central London won't be sold at ?450,000. What, then, is the point

:38:34.:38:38.

of a cap at that amount? Why not ?150,000?

:38:39.:38:43.

Precisely, and my honourable friend makes a really, really excellent

:38:44.:38:49.

point, and it is why a local test of the need for starter homes is so

:38:50.:38:55.

important. As I was saying, this amendment is not a block on starter

:38:56.:38:59.

homes, but a requirement that they are part of a local housing mix. For

:39:00.:39:05.

that reason, we should be supporting the Lords in this amendment. We also

:39:06.:39:10.

find it odd that the government wants to replace amendments nine and

:39:11.:39:13.

ten with one that relates to rural exam and sites. -- exemptions sites.

:39:14.:39:20.

We support the government having a policy in rural exemption sites, but

:39:21.:39:23.

not at the exclusion of Lords amendments nine and ten. Moving on

:39:24.:39:29.

to the sale of high-value council housing, this is one of the most

:39:30.:39:30.

contentious aspects of the Bill. We do not agree that the sale of

:39:31.:39:39.

higher value council housing should be used to fund the road to buy for

:39:40.:39:44.

housing association tenants. Lords amendment 37, tabled by various

:39:45.:39:50.

Lords, is a very straightforward one that requires a fitting out of

:39:51.:39:54.

details of the calculation and payments to be made by local

:39:55.:39:59.

authorities and for them to be put in instruments and subject to the

:40:00.:40:03.

affirmative procedure in Parliament. So all this amendment is seeking,

:40:04.:40:09.

really, is that information is put before Parliament so we know exactly

:40:10.:40:12.

what is being demanded from the additional tax on local authorities

:40:13.:40:17.

and that we get an opportunity in this House to vote on it. I will

:40:18.:40:26.

give way. I thank her forgiving way, because she makes a very important

:40:27.:40:31.

point. My local authority is set to sell 700 homes over the next three

:40:32.:40:35.

years for is building homes as fast as it can for people to buy. It is

:40:36.:40:39.

not against starter homes to London that is a patron for many. Does she

:40:40.:40:42.

not agree that we really need to get the government to address these

:40:43.:40:45.

particular issues in high-cost areas like mine, which are forcing

:40:46.:40:50.

everybody not just out of ownership but any realistic prospect for

:40:51.:40:54.

living there, even on a good income. She makes an excellent point and I

:40:55.:40:57.

am going to come onto that very issue on a later amendment. So, why

:40:58.:41:03.

does the government not want to provide this information and have

:41:04.:41:08.

this scrutiny? Does this lack of information -- this lack of

:41:09.:41:10.

information is an issue that has been taken up by the committee as

:41:11.:41:14.

well. The Minister will be a winner that it said it is not yet clear how

:41:15.:41:20.

this policy will be funded in practice, or what its financial

:41:21.:41:23.

impacts might be. The Department's intention is for this policy to be

:41:24.:41:28.

fully funded by local authorities but it was unable to provide any

:41:29.:41:31.

figures to demonstrate that this would be the case. More widely, an

:41:32.:41:38.

even bigger risk will fall on those local authorities required to sell

:41:39.:41:42.

housing stock to fund the policy, as those assets will, in effect, be

:41:43.:41:46.

transferred to central government. But the Department did not appear to

:41:47.:41:49.

have a good understanding of the size of those risks. The commitment

:41:50.:41:54.

to replace homes sold under this policy on at least a 1-1 basis will

:41:55.:42:01.

not ensure that these will be like-for-like replacements, as

:42:02.:42:05.

regards size, location or tenure. And experience, as we know, of the

:42:06.:42:10.

reinvigorated Right to Buy for council tenants introduced into a

:42:11.:42:13.

detailed shows that meeting such placement targets can be difficult.

:42:14.:42:19.

-- introduced in 2012. Moreover, replacement forms can be in

:42:20.:42:21.

different areas, a different size and cost more to rent. Neither do

:42:22.:42:28.

they need to be new ones. I will give way. The Minister has said on a

:42:29.:42:35.

number of occasions that the sale of the higher value council properties,

:42:36.:42:40.

as it has now become, will pay for the replacement of that property,

:42:41.:42:46.

the replacement of the right to buy property sold by a housing

:42:47.:42:50.

association and this ?1 billion remedial Brian Field fun. If the

:42:51.:42:54.

Minister has said that, it must imply that he has some figures and

:42:55.:42:58.

working out somewhere on which he has based those assertions. Would it

:42:59.:43:01.

not be helpful if people produce those today? My honourable friend

:43:02.:43:09.

makes an excellent point and if the Minister has those figures, and we

:43:10.:43:13.

will give him an opportunity now to share those figures with us, it

:43:14.:43:21.

would be extremely helpful in terms of us knowing what exactly it is we

:43:22.:43:25.

are going to be voting on this evening. But whilst more information

:43:26.:43:31.

is important, we need to amend ourselves that the whole policy of

:43:32.:43:35.

selling of higher value council housing to fund the right to Buy is

:43:36.:43:41.

considered by almost everyone to be a very bad thing to do. And that

:43:42.:43:48.

replacement is absolutely essential. Lords amendment 47, tabled by

:43:49.:43:55.

Coseley and Kennedy, addresses the issue of replacement and would

:43:56.:43:59.

require the government to enter into an agreement with the local

:44:00.:44:04.

authority under clause 72 am aware by a local authority could show the

:44:05.:44:07.

need for a type of social housing and the Secretary of State would

:44:08.:44:11.

then agree a hold back some, so homes sold could be replaced of the

:44:12.:44:16.

same tenure, type and rent. If the government is not accepting this

:44:17.:44:22.

1-1, like-for-like replacement, as the Minister has suggested earlier,

:44:23.:44:26.

then I think we need a further explanation as to why not. The

:44:27.:44:30.

reason this amendment is so important is that few details, as we

:44:31.:44:35.

have been saying, are in the public domain about how the government will

:44:36.:44:39.

meet its own commitment for a 1-1 or 2-1 replacement in London. It would

:44:40.:44:44.

appear ministers could force the sale of a council house in Camden

:44:45.:44:48.

and can't to other new homes built for open market sale in Croydon as

:44:49.:44:53.

meeting the so-called commitment to replace. For the like-for-like

:44:54.:45:01.

replacement in amendment 47 is a -- is vital to ensure housing need is

:45:02.:45:06.

met across the range and that homes sold for social rent are not simply

:45:07.:45:13.

replaced for starter homes or has that -- homes at higher rents, area

:45:14.:45:17.

you'll risk. Furthermore, figures from Shelter this morning outline a

:45:18.:45:23.

truly alarming picture of the impact of the sale of higher value council

:45:24.:45:27.

homes local authority stock. And I will come to this in a moment or

:45:28.:45:33.

two. I will give way. Would she except that there is also punishes

:45:34.:45:37.

good councils, who try to build social homes? Indeed. I suspect that

:45:38.:45:43.

is part of the government's rationale. So Labour will be

:45:44.:45:46.

supporting the Lords in their amendment 47. Can you give way? I

:45:47.:45:56.

thank the shed and forgiving way. The Minister was talking about

:45:57.:46:02.

amendment 47, that is the importance of the principles of the car in

:46:03.:46:07.

amendment in regards to if you sell social housing, replacing it in the

:46:08.:46:12.

same area. We talked about the starter homes. It would be really

:46:13.:46:16.

great if the Minister could just confirmed that starter homes in my

:46:17.:46:21.

constituency, in Brent, will be no more than ?190,000, because that

:46:22.:46:25.

would change the whole tone of this debate, if the Minister could just

:46:26.:46:30.

confirm that. My honourable friend has given the Minister and

:46:31.:46:35.

opportunity to do so, but I doubt very much whether he will take her

:46:36.:46:40.

up on that offer. Moving on to another pernicious pet of the bill,

:46:41.:46:44.

pay to. As we all know, this is a tax on tenants and a tax on

:46:45.:46:48.

aspiration and will lead to many people having to leave their homes

:46:49.:46:52.

or increase their levels of is now dead. The Minister should have

:46:53.:46:55.

talked to the group of tenants from Hackney and met a few weeks ago.

:46:56.:46:59.

They are not high income families. How could anyone describe a

:47:00.:47:04.

household in London where a couple earn an income of 17,000 and 22,005,

:47:05.:47:14.

or 12000 and 18,000 outside London? I wonder if she could help me

:47:15.:47:18.

understand how members opposite are simultaneously arguing that ?40,000

:47:19.:47:24.

household income in London is rich, when it comes to social rent, but

:47:25.:47:28.

?77,000 is pure when it comes to getting a 20% discount on starter

:47:29.:47:34.

homes. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I look forward to the

:47:35.:47:39.

Minister and throwing my friend's questionnaire! And yet such people

:47:40.:47:46.

are going to be faced with the situation where even a modest rise

:47:47.:47:49.

in income could result in a significant hike in rent to stop one

:47:50.:47:53.

of the couples we spoke to were a part-time cleaner and a sales

:47:54.:47:56.

associate with a combined income of just over 40,000 pounds. They wanted

:47:57.:48:00.

their children to go to university and I just -- and just cannot know

:48:01.:48:07.

how they will manage that in London as they rent is towards a market

:48:08.:48:11.

one, in their areas seeing the rent increase by 400%. I will give way.

:48:12.:48:17.

Does she agree with the principle at all of means testing tenants in

:48:18.:48:24.

properties that are set aside for people on lower incomes, social

:48:25.:48:29.

rented properties? The honourable gentleman should know, because he

:48:30.:48:33.

sat on the bill committee, that a voluntary scheme is already in place

:48:34.:48:39.

for both local authorities and housing the full seasons to do that

:48:40.:48:42.

very thing. The tenants also objected to their housing being... I

:48:43.:48:47.

will give way under the moment. -- and housing associations to do that

:48:48.:48:51.

very thing. They also objected to their housing being seen as

:48:52.:48:55.

subsidised. As we know from Baroness Williams' corresponds to a written

:48:56.:48:59.

question, local authorities do not receive subsidy from the Exchequer.

:49:00.:49:03.

2011, there was an act that abolished subsidy. In any case, it

:49:04.:49:10.

is there to meet need. The fact that the government is taxing tenants in

:49:11.:49:15.

this way whilst claiming to stand up for hard-working people is

:49:16.:49:20.

outrageous. Would she give way? I will give way to the honourable lady

:49:21.:49:27.

and then the honourable gentleman. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I

:49:28.:49:32.

am deeply concerned that the honourable lady from the opposition

:49:33.:49:35.

front bench cannot seem to agree with those housing charity chief

:49:36.:49:38.

executive who in the evidence session that except the printable

:49:39.:49:40.

that it ought to be used for social housing to go to those most in need.

:49:41.:49:45.

Considering that under amendment one she best argument around scares

:49:46.:49:51.

public resources, I do not understand her possession. Perhaps

:49:52.:49:56.

she could clarify. -- her position. What I would say is that in the name

:49:57.:50:03.

that is how council housing is allocated in this country. It is

:50:04.:50:08.

allocated on the basis of need. I will give way. Would she agree with

:50:09.:50:16.

me that the hard-working families that certainly I see in my surgery,

:50:17.:50:21.

as no doubt she does in house, and indeed members on the opposite side,

:50:22.:50:25.

are going to get nothing from this. The hard-working families, the

:50:26.:50:28.

single mother earning ?17,000 who wants to get out of the dreadful

:50:29.:50:31.

private rented accommodation that she is in, which literally have

:50:32.:50:35.

rodents running around on the floor, she is not going to get anything out

:50:36.:50:40.

of this, is she? The honourable gentleman makes a really good point.

:50:41.:50:46.

She absolutely is not. I have already given way to the honourable

:50:47.:50:51.

lady. Amendment 54 would seek but I will give way in just a moment. I

:50:52.:50:55.

want to make some progress. Amendment 54 with the two limit the

:50:56.:50:59.

damage of pay to stay by making it voluntary for local authorities and

:51:00.:51:05.

would treat them in the same way as housing associations. So I just do

:51:06.:51:09.

not understand the reasoning from the Minister that was given air

:51:10.:51:14.

layer about treating council tenants differently, because all this

:51:15.:51:17.

amendment is asking is the council tenants are treated in exactly the

:51:18.:51:21.

same way as housing association tenants. And again Labour will

:51:22.:51:24.

support the Lords in this amendment. I give way. To bring the lady back

:51:25.:51:30.

to the comment she made earlier about social housing should be

:51:31.:51:36.

allocated on need, the average salary in my constituency is

:51:37.:51:42.

?20,000. There are over 1000 people on the housing waiting list. Would

:51:43.:51:45.

she accept that where people are earning 30,000 that the people who

:51:46.:51:48.

are earning the average salary of 20,000 will feel aggrieved, firstly

:51:49.:51:52.

that they cannot get a social home because it is being occupied by that

:51:53.:51:56.

person and second that they are being tax to effectively subsidised

:51:57.:52:00.

that person living in that house earning significantly more than they

:52:01.:52:05.

can? I would say to the gentleman I do not accept most of that. And what

:52:06.:52:10.

I would say to him is that what we must do is build lots more council

:52:11.:52:14.

houses in this country. Amendment 55 would...

:52:15.:52:18.

SHOUTING Amendment 55 would introduce a taper

:52:19.:52:24.

off 10p on every pound above the minimum income threshold burned by a

:52:25.:52:29.

social tenant. This again is a sensible measure that seeks to

:52:30.:52:32.

ensure tenants to not face a cliff edge whereby small rise in income

:52:33.:52:38.

leads to a huge rent increase. We know the government is planning a

:52:39.:52:41.

higher taper and we heard that from the Minister earlier. I am pleased

:52:42.:52:48.

that he is going to take and keep the taper at the level at which it

:52:49.:52:54.

is set under review and that it is going to be subject to an

:52:55.:52:57.

affirmative procedure. I think we need to look at this very closely

:52:58.:53:02.

indeed. I give way. Thank you. Thank you for giving way. And thank you

:53:03.:53:06.

for responding to my honourable friend before. Could I just please

:53:07.:53:11.

ask the honourable lady to clarify to the House, and remind the House,

:53:12.:53:15.

exactly what the average earnings of an average person in the UK is, and

:53:16.:53:20.

then answer the question is social housing for everybody then or for

:53:21.:53:24.

those in genuine need? Because there is a bit of confusion. Quite right!

:53:25.:53:29.

What she will know is that there are a lot of people in this country, and

:53:30.:53:33.

I am sure many in her constituency, on council waiting lists. And what

:53:34.:53:37.

we should be thinking about in this chamber is how to build more council

:53:38.:53:45.

houses to address that need. If I can move on to Lords amendment 50

:53:46.:53:49.

seven. It seeks to increase the threshold for pages stay to 50,000

:53:50.:53:54.

in London and 40,000 outside London. Again, we see the point in this

:53:55.:53:58.

amendment, as it is seeking to limit the damage of this dreadful policy,

:53:59.:54:04.

and the same is the case with Lords amendment 58, which seeks to ensure

:54:05.:54:08.

that the income thresholds are increased by CPI and not at the whim

:54:09.:54:13.

of the Secretary of State. Again, we would not that the government is

:54:14.:54:15.

voting against these amendments and so I think perhaps we could have

:54:16.:54:18.

done with a bit more of an explanation as to the basis on which

:54:19.:54:24.

they intended to increase the thresholds in due course. If I can

:54:25.:54:30.

move on quickly, Madam Deputy Speaker, to the government's

:54:31.:54:33.

amendments. There are too many to comment on, given the time

:54:34.:54:36.

available. Again, highlighting a problem with this bill. So I have

:54:37.:54:40.

on. We are pleased that the on. We are pleased that the

:54:41.:54:44.

government adopted amendments 26-36 tables by Lords Kennedy and Brandon,

:54:45.:54:46.

which enabled information to be which enabled information to be

:54:47.:54:52.

given to third parties when seeking the recovery of abandoned premises

:54:53.:54:55.

and providing a definition of Tennessee above. This is something

:54:56.:55:00.

honourable friend worked hard to ensure were included in the bill.

:55:01.:55:07.

Government amendments 38-43 change the requirements for local

:55:08.:55:11.

authorities to sell-off vacant high-value council housing and

:55:12.:55:16.

replacement with a requirement to sell-off higher value vacant council

:55:17.:55:22.

housing. If selling off high-value housing was bad, selling off higher

:55:23.:55:30.

value housing is much, much worse. While it might help London a little,

:55:31.:55:34.

it will lead to the sell-offs in other areas. As noted earlier, there

:55:35.:55:38.

is simply not enough information available on the impact of this

:55:39.:55:41.

policy or its scope, for Parliament to be boating on it. The analysis

:55:42.:55:50.

finds that in order to raise ?4.5 billion a year needed, each local

:55:51.:55:55.

authority could be asked to raise on average a massive 26 million in

:55:56.:56:02.

total. This corresponds to the sale of 23,503 council homes per year,

:56:03.:56:09.

six times more than what estimated would be sold under the previous

:56:10.:56:16.

high-value regime. Government amendment 56 supports the

:56:17.:56:22.

exemptions from some categories of persons as yet unknown from paid to

:56:23.:56:28.

stay provisions. This is something Labour argued strongly for at the

:56:29.:56:31.

Commons committee stage, but the amendment states that there may be

:56:32.:56:37.

exceptions for higher income tenants in social housing of a specified

:56:38.:56:41.

description. So, is it, and perhaps the minister could tell us, to apply

:56:42.:56:46.

to people aged over 65, people who have a registered as ability, people

:56:47.:56:53.

with seasonal employment contracts, where a household member is in

:56:54.:56:57.

receipt of care? At the moment, we have no idea what the minister is

:56:58.:57:01.

intending, and that is not a satisfactory situation. Government

:57:02.:57:08.

amendments to 15, 217, 218, two to seven, and 233 amendment the

:57:09.:57:17.

proposal. While we ignore it that in 10-year tenancies, and longer, if

:57:18.:57:20.

there is a child in the home, as a step forward, we still think this

:57:21.:57:25.

whole policy is dreadful. Many, many people are commenting, and though it

:57:26.:57:31.

is really important for social housing and council housing in

:57:32.:57:36.

particular, it is important that it has security of tenure and enables

:57:37.:57:40.

communities to be stable and thrive. One only wonder what is going to

:57:41.:57:43.

happen to parents whenever their children reach the age of 19, and

:57:44.:57:48.

what if a young person wants to live at home beyond this date? The whole

:57:49.:57:53.

policy fails to acknowledge that we are talking about people's homes,

:57:54.:58:00.

what the government should be doing is bringing forward proposals to

:58:01.:58:04.

extend security of tenure in the private rented sector rather than

:58:05.:58:08.

reducing it for council housing tenants, with all the social

:58:09.:58:11.

upheaval and personal anxiety that brings with it. Government

:58:12.:58:17.

amendments 90-91 deal with the electrical safety checks, and I am

:58:18.:58:20.

so pleased that the government has been forced by the action we took in

:58:21.:58:25.

the Commons and by their Lordships to adopt this amendment, that would

:58:26.:58:29.

put the duty and private landlords to ensure electrical safety

:58:30.:58:36.

standards are met. And that they are carried out with a reasonable

:58:37.:58:39.

frequency, and by people of the proper expertise. And we know, and I

:58:40.:58:47.

think we should thank again, the Baroness and others were tabling

:58:48.:58:49.

theirs and arguing for it in the Lords. -- for tabling this. Finally,

:58:50.:58:56.

I am pleased that their Lordships insisted that the regulations we are

:58:57.:58:58.

still to receive, and there are many, that would set much of the

:58:59.:59:04.

detail of this will, must in the main follow the affirmative

:59:05.:59:11.

procedure. This includes banning order offences, terminations and

:59:12.:59:14.

regulations relating to vagrant higher value housing, high income

:59:15.:59:17.

social tenants, electrical safety, client money protection, and many

:59:18.:59:24.

others. I want to thank them for doing this and ensuring that the

:59:25.:59:28.

nasty habit the government has adopted in putting through important

:59:29.:59:33.

regulations by elective procedure ceases. As the whole housing world

:59:34.:59:37.

has acknowledged, this build is little to solve our housing crisis,

:59:38.:59:41.

but will make things a whole lot worse for the supply of genuinely

:59:42.:59:46.

affordable housing. -- this bill does little. It is causing headaches

:59:47.:59:51.

for the Prime Minister, but I'm sure he will be pleased to know that he

:59:52.:59:55.

won't need a junior doctor to cure his headache. All he needs to do is

:59:56.:00:01.

drop this dreadful bill. CHEERING

:00:02.:00:06.

Thank you. I draw members attention to my entry

:00:07.:00:15.

in the register of interests. I am pleased to speak in this debate to

:00:16.:00:20.

support the bill, which other members, who were all members in

:00:21.:00:25.

committee stage, and the passions raised then and now are testament to

:00:26.:00:29.

the fact that we know in this country, we need to build more

:00:30.:00:31.

homes, there are many of our constituents who want to get on the

:00:32.:00:35.

housing ladder, and this build is great service to that cause. There

:00:36.:00:40.

is no doubt that house-building took a hit following the recession, which

:00:41.:00:45.

began in 2008, but I am pleased to note that as our committee stages

:00:46.:00:48.

were winding up in December of last year, house-building completions

:00:49.:00:53.

were at the highest level since 2008, with 143,000 in the calendar

:00:54.:00:59.

year. This is to be applauded, but there are still that matter there is

:01:00.:01:06.

still a lot more work to be done. And to fulfil the aspirations of the

:01:07.:01:10.

86% of our fellow Britons who wants to own their own home. Starter homes

:01:11.:01:16.

aren't essential part of that offering, to allow people -- are an

:01:17.:01:21.

essential part of that offering, to allow people to own their homes

:01:22.:01:26.

rather than renting forever. I will give way.

:01:27.:01:31.

Thank you. Most was on the side would agree that a starter home for

:01:32.:01:34.

a family starting out as a great thing. She therefore not regret that

:01:35.:01:37.

the last eight years, and this The Mayor of London, we have seen

:01:38.:01:43.

private sale at inflated prices, luxury homes sold to overseas

:01:44.:01:46.

developers, and nowhere within reach of local people in my constituency

:01:47.:01:50.

or across London? I have great respect for the

:01:51.:01:53.

honourable lady and the respect that would work she does her committee,

:01:54.:01:57.

but I would say, with respect to the other side, which my honourable

:01:58.:02:01.

friend for Rossendale said, this is not a debate just about London, and

:02:02.:02:06.

a lot of the debate in committee stages and when we have seen it in

:02:07.:02:11.

the chamber is about London. There are a lot of affordable houses, and

:02:12.:02:14.

I know there are many others in London, would I know there are

:02:15.:02:17.

another 590 MPs who represent areas outside of London. I will give way.

:02:18.:02:26.

I thank my honourable friend. It was a great pleasure to serve with her

:02:27.:02:28.

on the housing and planning committee. But she touches on an

:02:29.:02:32.

interesting point. Does she agree with me that, if you take London and

:02:33.:02:39.

most of the south-east out, that none of our witnesses were able to

:02:40.:02:46.

definitively demonstrate that starter homes with the right

:02:47.:02:49.

vehicles, such as Help to Buy, were going to be unaffordable? For the

:02:50.:02:56.

vast majority of England, they were affordable.

:02:57.:02:58.

I thank the honourable gentleman. Thinking back to those happy days in

:02:59.:03:02.

November and December that week spent together, although the

:03:03.:03:05.

committee stages were now unalloyed joy, I will just finish responding

:03:06.:03:11.

to my honourable friend. With the right vehicles, such as the Help to

:03:12.:03:15.

Buy Iser, and the shared ownership, starter homes are affordable for

:03:16.:03:19.

many, many areas, including developments I have visited in my

:03:20.:03:26.

own constituency of South Ribble. They are an affordable way, I think,

:03:27.:03:32.

particularly for the generation between 20 and 40 which has been

:03:33.:03:35.

disproportionately affected by the increase of house prices. It is a

:03:36.:03:40.

way for them to get on the property ladder, and I think we should all

:03:41.:03:44.

really welcome this commitment to build these 200,000 homes. I will

:03:45.:03:47.

give way. I thank her for giving way. I am a

:03:48.:03:55.

London MP, and it might be difficult for other members who are not London

:03:56.:04:01.

MPs to understand how difficult it is, and how unaffordable it is, to

:04:02.:04:04.

live in London, and that is why we have made the points we have made.

:04:05.:04:10.

It may be of interest that, on Thursday, Londoners will be voting,

:04:11.:04:14.

almost on a referendum of the housing crisis in London.

:04:15.:04:21.

I thank the honourable lady for her comments, and I think I will let the

:04:22.:04:26.

London MPs respond more fully to the particular London voices.

:04:27.:04:32.

I am going to make a little bit of progress, because otherwise I am up

:04:33.:04:36.

and down like a fiddle's elbow. I would like quickly to turn to the

:04:37.:04:41.

amendments made by the noble Lord. Amendment 1, in relation to the 20%

:04:42.:04:47.

discount. I don't think that a 20% discount over 20 years really takes

:04:48.:04:52.

account of the practicalities of people's lives. It is just far too

:04:53.:04:57.

long. If it is a starter home, one would hope that people are not going

:04:58.:05:01.

to therefore live in it for 20 years, and as the minister said, the

:05:02.:05:05.

average time people live in a house is seven years, not 20. So it places

:05:06.:05:13.

restrictions on starter home owners, and that is precisely the generation

:05:14.:05:17.

of people aged 20-40 that this bill is aiming to empower. I am very glad

:05:18.:05:24.

that the government is consulting on the duration of the discount of the

:05:25.:05:28.

paper, because if we want builders to build, and if we want lenders to

:05:29.:05:34.

lend, there needs to be a practical, not an ideological, approach. The

:05:35.:05:38.

policy has to work. I would also like to touch on the Lords

:05:39.:05:45.

amendments 9-10, which remove the power for this to be a national

:05:46.:05:50.

requirement and replace it with a locum set requirements -- locally

:05:51.:05:55.

set requirement depending on local needs. I would say this completely

:05:56.:05:59.

undermines our manifesto commitment to build these 200,000 homes, and

:06:00.:06:04.

has the right honourable gentleman, the member for one thing, who is no

:06:05.:06:08.

longer in his place, mentioned, this is a very, very popular policy. We

:06:09.:06:14.

do have constituents coming to us, saying, I want to have a starter

:06:15.:06:17.

home. How will I get my foot on the ladder? If we were to remove it, I

:06:18.:06:21.

fear we were just remove the process. I will happily give way.

:06:22.:06:26.

I'm grateful to her for giving way, but in an earlier statement, of

:06:27.:06:30.

course, she actually made the case for a more localised approach,

:06:31.:06:33.

because she said she was not a London member, that the

:06:34.:06:37.

circumstances in her constituency were very different to those in the

:06:38.:06:42.

capital. Well, surely, if there are different circumstances in different

:06:43.:06:44.

parts of the country, we need a local approach.

:06:45.:06:49.

What I would say to the honourable gentleman, for whom I have the

:06:50.:06:56.

greatest respect, is that, if we did this, it would completely delay the

:06:57.:07:00.

process. We would get a 2019 without a starter home having been built

:07:01.:07:04.

will stop I really fear for that. The Lords amendments would really

:07:05.:07:06.

slow this down, and we need to start building now. We know house prices

:07:07.:07:13.

have risen. They have risen exponentially, and particularly in

:07:14.:07:16.

London, but because of a lack of supply, it is a very complicated

:07:17.:07:20.

picture, and one could not say it is for one particular reason. But lack

:07:21.:07:25.

of supply is a real fundamental lock on that, and we have touched on it

:07:26.:07:28.

all the way through committee stages. We need to get more houses

:07:29.:07:33.

built, and quickly. There is much debating committee about permission

:07:34.:07:36.

in principle, which is this new consent model Lanning, and I would

:07:37.:07:44.

argue very much that this provides certainty, and... I am afraid I am

:07:45.:07:47.

going to make a little more progress. Developers and builders

:07:48.:07:52.

may want certainty, and they want speed. One of the breaks and

:07:53.:07:58.

development is a lack of certainty, and the slowness of certain planning

:07:59.:08:02.

departments. The whole essence of this bill is to get the country

:08:03.:08:06.

building homes, to increase the supply, and to get more people as

:08:07.:08:12.

homeowners. This is a particularly effective measure for small

:08:13.:08:16.

builders, because they don't have the scale to have in-house fund

:08:17.:08:23.

departments. So to encourage builders who might be building ten

:08:24.:08:26.

or 20 homes in a village, that is particularly effective.

:08:27.:08:33.

Small builders, who actually get on and build or deliver, whereas the

:08:34.:08:36.

large builders are often very slow and building, so anything we do to

:08:37.:08:39.

support the small builders and small site, will actually see an

:08:40.:08:42.

improvement in housing supply. I agree with my honourable friend,

:08:43.:08:46.

and I think that with small builders, the way that they are

:08:47.:08:49.

funded and the way that they are run, they are not land banking in

:08:50.:08:52.

the same way. Their approach is that they want to build homes and move,

:08:53.:08:56.

whereas when you get the larger multiples, they have a different

:08:57.:08:59.

approach because they are actually land investors as well as builders,

:09:00.:09:03.

and what we want to do is get homes built. That is the whole essence,

:09:04.:09:08.

and I think that is a very much a cross-party consensus, that we need

:09:09.:09:09.

more units built. I do welcome the amendments which

:09:10.:09:17.

were brought in the other place which exclude winning and working

:09:18.:09:25.

with minerals, which covers fracking, where companies have made

:09:26.:09:31.

initial exploratory attempt, this will give reassurance to some of my

:09:32.:09:35.

constituents. We need to build more homes. This bill will provide some

:09:36.:09:43.

hope, and hopefully some homes for the hundreds of our constituents who

:09:44.:09:55.

aspire to own a home of their own. The most astounding thing about the

:09:56.:09:59.

government's proposals is that we are expected to be here today making

:10:00.:10:04.

decisions about them, without having any idea of what the costings of

:10:05.:10:09.

them is going to be. The Minister, when he came to the select

:10:10.:10:13.

Committee, said that the government would produce costings in due

:10:14.:10:15.

course. I think he actually said the spring was the likely time. Well, we

:10:16.:10:19.

are here in the spring and I have not seen any figures yet. But it is

:10:20.:10:25.

absolutely astounding that we should be hearing from the government over

:10:26.:10:32.

and over again that the sale of no higher value council homes will pay

:10:33.:10:39.

for the replacement of that home, for the replacement of a housing

:10:40.:10:43.

association property sold and for remedial work, a ?1 billion fund,

:10:44.:10:53.

for Nato land. If the government are clear that this is what their

:10:54.:10:55.

policies are going to do, will be please show us the figures? -- for

:10:56.:11:04.

they must have the figures to make those promises on, or I've suddenly

:11:05.:11:09.

giving their belief that this is how it will work out without any clear

:11:10.:11:14.

evidence to support it? It really is a matter of great concern. I will

:11:15.:11:19.

make some personal comments just in a moment. The selection as you said,

:11:20.:11:24.

absolutely correctly, having heard the evidence, we have not seen

:11:25.:11:28.

evidence that the government has the proposals and we call on it to do so

:11:29.:11:32.

as a matter of urgency. That was agreed at the beginning of February.

:11:33.:11:37.

We are now three months further on. We still have not got any figures.

:11:38.:11:40.

It is exactly the same point that was made in the PAC report, as to

:11:41.:11:47.

whether they should do things before or after policies or emblem entered,

:11:48.:11:54.

the Department should publish a full and back assessment containing

:11:55.:11:58.

analysis and Lane with the guidance of the Green book. When are we going

:11:59.:12:05.

to see these figures? We have not got them for the bill. Will we have

:12:06.:12:08.

them before any secondary legislation, any delegated the

:12:09.:12:12.

decision, comes before the House for approval? Did he just make a firm

:12:13.:12:16.

promise that is what is going to be the case? He made reference to some

:12:17.:12:23.

further secondary legislation on the high value council homes, so we

:12:24.:12:26.

actually going to see all of these proposals thoroughly and properly

:12:27.:12:30.

costed out before we come to that point? It is a very serious matter

:12:31.:12:34.

about the rate of the size to have that information before it passes

:12:35.:12:38.

legislation. -- the right of this House. To just come on to the issue

:12:39.:12:42.

of starter homes. I have to say again, it has been a little

:12:43.:12:46.

confusing to understand how the government's policy will work out in

:12:47.:12:50.

practice. When the Minister came before the Select Committee, he said

:12:51.:12:56.

that there would of course be discretion for local authorities

:12:57.:12:58.

when they were meeting with developers and discussing 106

:12:59.:13:00.

agreement and what was going to be built in terms of affordable housing

:13:01.:13:03.

and what that affordable housing would be. Can we just have some

:13:04.:13:09.

clarity? Is that the starter homes that are going to take absolute

:13:10.:13:11.

priority and local authorities will not have any choice but in order to

:13:12.:13:15.

hit the 200,000 target the government have got for starter

:13:16.:13:17.

homes they will have to build starter homes as a priority and it

:13:18.:13:21.

is -- if there is a little bit left when you might put one or two

:13:22.:13:25.

affordable homes for rent on the site? Or will a local authority, as

:13:26.:13:30.

there are currently allowed to do, come to the on the about 16

:13:31.:13:32.

agreements, but what is right in terms of the of affordable homes,

:13:33.:13:36.

whether it be starter homes abound of affordable homes or shared

:13:37.:13:40.

ownership or homes to rent as part of a mix? What is going to be the

:13:41.:13:46.

case? Weirder regatta to with errors of land in my constituency where

:13:47.:13:50.

there is no requirement for any affordable housing at present

:13:51.:13:52.

because the site are not considered to be viable. By ability an

:13:53.:13:57.

important test under the MP PF guidelines that local authorities

:13:58.:13:59.

have to work too. As the government going to insist that starter homes

:14:00.:14:06.

are built on a site or it is not considered currently viable to have

:14:07.:14:08.

any one of six provision for affordable housing question how will

:14:09.:14:10.

that work will it be local discretion regards to that as well

:14:11.:14:13.

question I do think we did some clarity, just as I think we need

:14:14.:14:18.

clarity about the replacement of the higher value council homes,

:14:19.:14:21.

precisely what sort of homes there are be replaced with. How that is

:14:22.:14:25.

good to be defined to stop what the negotiations are going to look like

:14:26.:14:28.

in terms of process between government and local authorities.

:14:29.:14:32.

And again, is it going to be starter homes or cost or only going to be in

:14:33.:14:37.

a position where affordable homes to rent can actually be part of that

:14:38.:14:41.

replacement? Back to the like-for-like situation. In the end,

:14:42.:14:44.

the chartered insert of rising protest evidence to the select

:14:45.:14:46.

committee were they said that their estimate was during the course of

:14:47.:14:51.

this Parliament they be 300,000 fewer social homes to rent in this

:14:52.:14:54.

country than there were at the beginning. The Minister likes to

:14:55.:14:59.

take great credit for the last Government, the Coalition

:15:00.:15:01.

government, having built my council houses that were built during the

:15:02.:15:05.

Labour Government. But, in the end, let's get back to the point. Is it

:15:06.:15:09.

going to be in this Parliament that there are fewer social homes to

:15:10.:15:13.

rent, not just council homes but housing association properties as

:15:14.:15:16.

well, 300,000 fewer that the chartered Institute of Housing of

:15:17.:15:20.

estimate of You can keep up to date with the latest news and weather

:15:21.:15:22.

throughout the day via our Twitter feed if the government disagrees

:15:23.:15:25.

with that figure, will it beat what it expects... -- housing estimate

:15:26.:15:31.

and if the government disagrees... Spee, you will agree the -- remedy

:15:32.:15:37.

evidence, that under the duty of these proposals housing associations

:15:38.:15:39.

would be building more properties of all tenants.

:15:40.:15:44.

We had evidence from different housing associations about how they

:15:45.:15:47.

were going to respond to the proposals. Some made it very clear

:15:48.:15:53.

that they felt that they would actually came less properties under

:15:54.:15:58.

106 agreement to rent than they would under the previous legislative

:15:59.:16:04.

arrangements. They also made it clear to us that given the fact that

:16:05.:16:11.

there is now no money in the government's housing programme for

:16:12.:16:14.

the rest of this Parliament, for any houses to rent in terms of grand

:16:15.:16:20.

assistance, all of the resources, the ?8 billion, is going to either

:16:21.:16:24.

to starter homes are shared ownership, that they, I think, many

:16:25.:16:27.

associations believe they are building your homes to rent on an

:16:28.:16:32.

affordable basis because of the combined effects of policy as a

:16:33.:16:37.

whole. And it will very from association to association. -- it

:16:38.:16:44.

will change. We heard from edge of executive of South Yorkshire

:16:45.:16:48.

Housing, where he said that in much of the area where his association

:16:49.:16:51.

works, it would not be possible to build back with the money from the

:16:52.:16:59.

sale of Housing Association property and what was likely is that they

:17:00.:17:03.

would buy up another property in the private rented sector, and that

:17:04.:17:06.

could happen is, which would not add to the housing stock. It is going to

:17:07.:17:09.

be very different policies in different areas. I would argue very

:17:10.:17:13.

strongly that in terms of starter homes we should reflect that in

:17:14.:17:16.

terms of allowing local authorities the ability to come to a different

:17:17.:17:20.

agreement which is at local needs. Indeed, that is what is recognised,

:17:21.:17:25.

the Select Committee said very clearly that starter homes should

:17:26.:17:28.

not be built at the expense of other forms of homes and indeed it is

:17:29.:17:34.

vital that homes for affordable rent are built to reflect local needs.

:17:35.:17:39.

Thank you for giving way on that point. Do you share my concern that

:17:40.:17:45.

research commissioned by the LGA highlights for people in need of

:17:46.:17:49.

affordable housing in 220 local authority areas they will not be

:17:50.:17:54.

able to take advantage of the starter homes being proposed. I

:17:55.:17:57.

think it is also very interesting that my honourable friend mentions

:17:58.:18:05.

the LGA. All parties in the LGA actually I do very strongly that the

:18:06.:18:11.

whole of this policy, in terms of the right to Buy for housing

:18:12.:18:14.

association tenants, should not be funded by the sale of local

:18:15.:18:18.

authority assets. Indeed, and I am going to make sure I get the words

:18:19.:18:22.

right when I called back to the honourable member, the member of the

:18:23.:18:28.

Select Committee, I think what we said that public policy should

:18:29.:18:31.

usually be funded by central government, rather than through a

:18:32.:18:34.

levy on local authorities. I think I got the words precisely right and it

:18:35.:18:36.

is one of these usual cases or perhaps government ought to listen

:18:37.:18:40.

to the words of the Select Committee! I think the whole issue

:18:41.:18:46.

of the sale of the right to Buy for housing association tenants would

:18:47.:18:48.

not be a significant point of contention if the government were

:18:49.:18:53.

not forcing the sea local authority homes to actually pay for it and we

:18:54.:18:58.

still have not had the figures to show how that would work. Sorting

:18:59.:19:02.

out both legs ability on starter homes, and I still do not quite know

:19:03.:19:06.

what the government's policy amounts to, because of the lack of clarity

:19:07.:19:09.

we have had. Could I just finally raised the two issues which I think

:19:10.:19:13.

I really worrying, and this is very Select Committee did not come if you

:19:14.:19:17.

about letting tenancies. And also about pay estate. We welcome that

:19:18.:19:22.

Peter stay will be voluntary for housing associations. -- here to

:19:23.:19:27.

strange in a street or you have got strange in a street or you have got

:19:28.:19:30.

two tenants earning the same amount of money currently paying similar

:19:31.:19:34.

rents, one in a Housing Association property and one in a council

:19:35.:19:36.

property and one finds the rent going up under the other does not?

:19:37.:19:42.

They talk about subsidised council housing, just let's get away from

:19:43.:19:45.

this. There is no central government subsidy to housing revenue accounts!

:19:46.:19:52.

Pays for itself. Is not a subsidy council tenants burning a little bit

:19:53.:19:57.

more than their neighbours next door. What they will be, if this

:19:58.:20:01.

measure so, is a tax on those tenants. The money will not go to

:20:02.:20:06.

the council, it will go to the Treasury. Treasury levying a charge

:20:07.:20:12.

on a council tenant is a tax, by any other name. Of course that is what

:20:13.:20:17.

is it. And let's put it with the left engine and see. -- the lifetime

:20:18.:20:24.

tenancy. We really going to end up with council estates were some homes

:20:25.:20:26.

will have been sold but different proportions different areas, some

:20:27.:20:30.

will then have been sold under the private rented sector, where we have

:20:31.:20:34.

an increasing mixture of people on the lowest income and people there

:20:35.:20:41.

are simply on a short-term basis? You're going to want to be shot,

:20:42.:20:44.

because you are going to force the rents up. People on slightly higher

:20:45.:20:50.

incomes, who may have a long-time commitment to that area, you may

:20:51.:20:55.

have written the area, who maybe the people who run the local housing

:20:56.:21:00.

association, local residents group and be really active there, and of

:21:01.:21:04.

course the very same people will be the longer term tenants who have a

:21:05.:21:08.

long-term commitment in their area. What does this policy, and the

:21:09.:21:12.

mixture of these policies, do for social cohesion? What does it do? It

:21:13.:21:17.

really undermines the whole idea of a long-term commitment by people who

:21:18.:21:24.

are to dinner areas, who want to stay there, because they enjoy

:21:25.:21:29.

living there because they have got connections. -- who are rooted to

:21:30.:21:32.

the areas. There are kids go to school there and that is where the

:21:33.:21:36.

homeless. To take that away... I am so grateful for him giving way on

:21:37.:21:41.

that billion point. Would he agree with some commentators that

:21:42.:21:47.

certainly see in London this bill, and this is very dramatic but very

:21:48.:21:53.

serious, marks the end of next communities in a number of

:21:54.:21:58.

borrowers? Potentially it does. Because of the drive out all the

:21:59.:22:01.

people on slightly higher incomes, and also it removes people

:22:02.:22:06.

potentially who are longer term tenants, it does create a very

:22:07.:22:09.

different sort of community. We have to be very careful that. I will give

:22:10.:22:13.

way and then will conclude after I have given way. I thank him for

:22:14.:22:18.

giving way. While have said that of the points he is making, does he not

:22:19.:22:22.

accept the principle that when it comes to a skiers social resource

:22:23.:22:25.

like social housing, it is simply common sense to make sure that

:22:26.:22:33.

skiers resource if targeted at those who are most in need, which is what

:22:34.:22:37.

this bill seeks to do? I would argue let's tackle the

:22:38.:22:44.

scarcity. Let's start a building programme of 100,000 social homes

:22:45.:22:47.

per year. That is the only way we are going to hit the 230,000 homes

:22:48.:22:51.

this country needs. We never built a quarter of a million homes in this

:22:52.:22:55.

country without a massive social with building programme and it is

:22:56.:22:58.

unlikely we will do so in the future. I will make one other point

:22:59.:23:02.

about the mix of communities. In other communities, where there is

:23:03.:23:05.

the very beginning a limited number of social rented properties, with

:23:06.:23:10.

the Right to Buy that has already happened and the extension of the

:23:11.:23:15.

Right to Buy proposed here, it is going to be exactly the same

:23:16.:23:20.

committees which have these "Higher value" council homes. Not only will

:23:21.:23:23.

be Right to Buy remove social housing in those areas, but the sale

:23:24.:23:30.

of fake and higher value council properties or remove social housing

:23:31.:23:33.

as well. It is likely there will be some communities where in future

:23:34.:23:38.

they will be no social housing. -- the sale of higher value council

:23:39.:23:43.

properties. That is the other conclusion to come to hear. It is

:23:44.:23:47.

really very worryingly indeed. -- very worrying indeed. Some

:23:48.:23:53.

communities where people are on very short-term tenancies and learning

:23:54.:23:56.

from other communities or if you actually got a real housing need but

:23:57.:23:59.

you cannot afford to buy, there will be normal for at all. -- no home for

:24:00.:24:04.

you at all. Hello and welcome to Tuesday

:24:05.:23:11.

in Parliament, our look at the best of the day in the Commons

:23:12.:23:14.

and the Lords.

:23:15.:23:18.

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