08/09/2016 House of Commons


08/09/2016

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write a new government is reviewing where we are and looking at how best

:00:00.:00:00.

we can enhance what matters most, which is opportunity? He is

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absolutely right. We have 1.4 million more children in good, or

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outstanding schools. We have done that in a variety of ways in terms

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of what children are learning in class and also how we are getting

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schools to work together collaboratively. We now need to say

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how can we take that to the next level but also critically, for

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million-plus children who are still not getting the attainment levels

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that we want and live in parts of a country where they do not have the

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chance to get to a good school, we have to make sure we change the

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terms of trade to make sure that they are turned into education

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opportunities. Business question, Mr Paul Flynn. Will the leader of the

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House gave us the business for next week? Leader of the House, Mr David

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Liddington. Mr Speaker, the bidders for next week, Monday the 12th of

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September, remaining stages of the Wales Bill. Tuesday the 13th,

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secondary reading of the Digital economy Bill. Wednesday the 14th,

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motions to approve statutory instruments relating to welfare

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reform in Northern Ireland and pensions. Followed by an opposition

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day, and on allotted half day, they will be a debate on NHS

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sustainability and transformation plans... On the 15th of September,

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debate and a motion related to domestic abuse victims in family law

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courts, followed by a debate on a motion related to quantitative

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easing. These are determined by the backbench business committee. On

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Friday the 16th, the House will not be sitting. On Monday the 10th of

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October, the provisional business will include the second reading of

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the neighbourhood planning Bill. I would also like to inform the House

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that the business in Westminster Hall for the 15th of September and

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the 13th of October will be as follows... The 15th of September, a

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debate on the sixth report from the Justice committee of session 2015-16

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on prison safety, that is determined by the liaison committee. And on the

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13th of October a general debate on Tobacco control, determined by the

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backbench business committee. Can I briefly at Mr Speaker, that I am

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sure members of all parties represented in this House will want

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to wish success to the team GB Paralympic athletes on the first day

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of competition today and personally as an MP that represents Stoke

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Mandeville, I think everybody in the United Kingdom can take some

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considerable pride in the fact that it was in this country that because

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of the drive of Ludwig Guttman, we saw the creation of a disability

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sport movement which has grown into the worldwide Paralympic movement,

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whose achievements we celebrate in the next two weeks. We thank the

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leader and we all are bass king in the reflected glory of the brilliant

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success of our Olympians and we acknowledge, as the leader has said,

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the pioneering work in this country in the whole introduction of the

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concept of the Paralympic games. We all wish the athletes well. There is

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one minor quibble we would have, it is an odd moment when we are

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celebrating the success of sport to diminish the role of the time

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available of the committee responsible for these affairs in

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this House, culture media and sport. It has been reduced today. We have

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gone on with this reluctantly but we see it as a temporary measure and we

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certainly do not think any of these areas are minor in any way. We look

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for the restoration of the full-time that was previously available to

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culture media and sport. Next Wednesday's Welsh debate will

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illustrate the degraded system that our democracy has and the way that

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it is heading into further distress. The Welsh Bill will not guarantee in

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anyway a compensatory increase in the number of members of the Welsh

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Assembly, although the work level has trouble. But in the future,

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Wales will lose 11 of the 40 MPs, will lose the four MPs of the MEPs

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that represent Wales, and we have got this turmoil in the democratic

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system when the disgrace of buying places in the House of Lords

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continues. Quite rightly, the press condemned the decisions taken by the

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previous prime minister in awarding places in the House of Lords, which

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is already bloated, which is already trying to cope with 300 extra

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members which they do not need, and to add to this in order to placate

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the interests of lobbyists, cronies and party donors. What we should be

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doing, instead of having a piecemeal reform of only one part of the

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defects in our democracy, and that is a reform which will please only

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one party and help only the Tory party, but will also disenfranchise

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2 million voters. Should we not be getting together and realising how

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far our democracy is degraded and how an all-party agreement on how we

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can come together with a reform which will be all embracing, which

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will look at all these abuses, in order to have a system that is fair,

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that is of good value for the electors, and one that can win back

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the respect that we have had internationally for the quality of

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our democracy? The decision to halt the contract on Hinkley point was a

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bold one hand a brave one. The position is not one in which there

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is a crisis of security. It is an out of date system which has been

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introduced, which has never worked anywhere in the world, because of

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the endless construction delays and the multi-billion cost overruns

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which have taken place in other countries, and we must also

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reconsider the atrocious deal struck which would mean that our

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electricity users would be saddled with the highest prices for

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electricity in the world for the next 35 years. Can he give us the

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debate, before any final decision is taken, on Hinkley, so we can

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consider all these aspects in this House before we blunder into what

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could be a gigantic financial and technological disaster of Hinkley?

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Finally, could I ask the minister after his distinguished record as a

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minister on European affairs, why are we retreating from our noble

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role as providing the gold standards of human rights in the world and

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certainly throughout Europe by insisting on a minor matter of our

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own traditional practices and inviting other countries, the

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oppressive regimes to go back to the old traditions of abusing and their

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own nation state citizens and degrading the human rights there? If

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we are not the as the trailblazers, the gold standard, the others will

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slip backwards. Does he not feel it is a retrograde step and we should

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consider being hateful part of the court of human rights and all of the

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European tradition of human being -- European rights we have lived for

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many years. -- playing hateful part? -- playing a full role. The usual

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channels will review those depending upon experience with how it will

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work out in practice. The question he asked at the end about human

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rights, I have to say to him, there is absolutely no retreat on the part

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of the Government from the high human rights standards that we set

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for ourselves in this country, and which we follow through in promoting

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foreign policy objectives as well. But the human rights of the United

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Kingdom were well developed and had a fine reputation before the Human

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Rights Act of 1998 was enacted. There is a long-standing issue over

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the way in which a number of particular decisions about the

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application of Article eight of the Convention have applied, in certain

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extra in cases. We are looking at how -- in certain cases. The

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government is absolutely clear that we stand by the human rights

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embodied in the European convention, which after all was something that

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was very much the product of work by the United Kingdom, and by its

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politicians at the time. On Hinkley, as the Prime Minister has said, we

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do intend to make a decision very soon. I think the objective that we

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have always had in mind is the need in framing an energy strategy to

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deliver both on climate change objectives, and on making sure of

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security of energy supply at a reasonable cost to domestic

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consumers and British industries so that industry can be competitive in

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some quite fierce global markets. I suspect he and I on the House of

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Lords voted the same way when those things were debated in a previous

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parliament for the partially elected upper house. But in truth there was

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no consensus or anything approaching consensus in the House of Commons,

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within parties or across parties about how that issue should be

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addressed. I do not really think it is likely to be fruitful to try and

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pursue House of Lords reform as an early priority. I was sorry about

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the disparaging tone he adopted towards the Wales Bill, because

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after all, what's this government's record has been about is delivering

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increased devolution, which the Welsh Assembly and political parties

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in Wales for the most part have been saying that they wanted to see.

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I was not shocked, but I was disheartened by the critical remark

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he threw in about the approach of the parliamentary boundary

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commission and the framework within which they are operating. One of my

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treats since my appointment has been to get into the honourable

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gentleman's autobiography. And I found on pages 57 and 58 of his

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memoirs that he lauded the achievements of the chartists, and

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he spilled out that one of the key objectives was that we should have

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constituencies with the equal numbers of electors in each

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constituency, and now the framework under which the boundary commission

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is operating will deliver one of the chartered objectives which he so

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strongly supported. I would have thought he would be cheering us on

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and not criticising as. He will be aware that I PSA is out for

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consultation with quite remarkable changes that are being proposed.

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They are presenting themselves before various committees and will

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have two sessions before the admin committee. Would he agree to a

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debate in the House that might give IPSA the opportunity to get a better

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understanding of what it is like to be an MP and how they can insist

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rather than hinder? -- a cyst. It is important that they are statutorily

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independent, but he is right in saying that any decisions about the

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salaries, pensions and expenses of members of Parliament should be

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informed by a proper understanding of what the responsibilities of

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being a member involved, and about the multifarious different ways in

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which different members, because of the nature of their constituencies,

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go about doing the job. I would suggest on a debate that the proper

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course would be for the backbench business committee perhaps to

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consider this if there is a large number of members who feel a debate

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of that kind is needed. Can I join the housing wishing the very best of

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the Paralympic team, hopefully winning a whole clutch of medals for

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the country. Yesterday the Prime Minister announced there would be no

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running commentary on the Brexit negotiations and she refused to say

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whether she was in favour of being in a single market are not. To me,

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that sounded that this House will be simply expected to accept whatever

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this government can clock is when it comes to the Brexit deal, as soon as

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it gets into deciding what that will be. The leader of the houses

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parliament 's champion. -- concocted. Will he tell us today

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that this House will be kept bang up-to-date in every detail of these

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negotiations as it is the biggest single issue in public life today.

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We already know that the government have no intention of bringing the

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trigger for article 60 two this House -- article 50. To this House.

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We also know there will be no Australian points based, instead

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we're going to have a wall constructed at Calais. No more

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keeping this House and the public in the dark about what this government

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proposes when it comes to wrecks it. This morning it was announced that

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billions of pounds will be spent on refurbishing this House. I am sure

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the Leader of the House meant to announce that we will have a full

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statement on this and a proper debate in government time about

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these proposals, particularly when we learn that this could cost up to

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?4.3 billion of public money, and I am sure all the constituents would

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want to know exactly. Lastly it goes back to the constituency issue in

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the House of Lords that was raised. We're going to have this

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announcement on the government's latest plans to gerrymander

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boundaries. When we have that conversation, can it be all of

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Parliament because we have to take into account what is going on in

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that absurd House down the corridor. It cannot possibly be right that we

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increasing the number of unelected Lords while at the same time

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decreasing the number of elected members. Mr Speaker, first of all I

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can say to the honourable gentleman that yes, Parliament will be kept

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fully informed at the appropriate times about the progress of the

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negotiations, though I think that the honourable gentleman will

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understand that if there is an ongoing negotiation, it would be

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foolish of any government of any political party to go into minute

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detail about how those negotiations were progressing because that would

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disadvantage this country in the progress of those negotiations. But

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the government will indeed report back at regular intervals and of

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course ministers will additionally be available to answer oral and

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written questions, and it is open to members to make application to Mr

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Speaker for urgent questions and debates if they feel the case is

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strong. I would say to the honourable gentleman, if you looks

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at the track record this week, on the first day back we had my right

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honourable friend the Secretary of State for exiting the European Union

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and questions about this matter for about two hours. Yesterday my right

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honourable friend the Prime Minister, in giving a statement

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about the G20 summit, in practice spends a lot of time responding to

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questions about the impact on the United Kingdom's International

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status in leaving the European Union, so I do not think he can

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claim to be short-changed this week. He referred to the report which is

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to be published at midday today by the joint committee of the Lords and

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Commons on the restoration and renewal project. That is a report

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which, like any select committee report, has been developed by the

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members concerned. The government has not had any input into that or

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any prior copies of the report sent to us so we could suddenly make

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comments before the announcement made today. Parliament will indeed

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have an opportunity to debate this before any decisions are taken.

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Decisions will be a matter for the House and the House of Lords about

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the future of the Palace. On the boundary changes, I say to him, the

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principle involved here is a quality of waiter votes. It really would be

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an affront to democracy if we went into an election in 2020 on the

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basis of electoral roll is based on a census to decades-old by that

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point, and we're some members were representing 100,000 electors and

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others representing significantly fewer than half that total. Thank

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you. I note that the Leader of the House has announced the second

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reading of the neighbourhood planning Bill, and I wonder whether

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he would comment on whether there would be enough time on matter

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whether he recommends a second debate on the local plan expert

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group which has come up with substantial and innovative

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recommendations to simplify the whole process, including

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neighbourhood planning. I think that there will be opportunity in the

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course of proceedings on the bill to have the kind of debate which he

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wants to see, but should he be dissatisfied there are opportunities

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available. Under half of the backbench business committee, can I

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say we welcome the opening of positive dialogue with the Leader of

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the House about the allocation of parliamentary business for backbench

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debates, and we welcome time sensitive subject applications. We

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had such an application at the committee on Tuesday, which is for

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during the week beginning the 10th of October. And that is an

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application from the member from Colchester, and I would support this

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because that week is baby loss week, and this debate is about baby loss,

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stillbirth and infant mortality in the first week of life. If he could

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find a slot during that week, we would be very appreciative. Indeed,

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he makes a powerful and persuasive point. I cannot make a promise

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today, but I will do my best to accommodate what he wants. Well and

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prison is a reserve prison and is not operating at the moment, and it

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is at the end of a large residential area. -- Wellingborough prison.

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Three days ago ten traveller families dumped themselves on the

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prison car park. The Ministry of Justice have tried their best to

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move them. It has become unacceptable to my constituents,

:22:44.:22:48.

particularly the ones living nearby. Could we have a statement next week

:22:49.:22:51.

on how the government deals with travellers who are on Crown

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property? There are number of us on all sides of the House where we have

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had this problem of unauthorised encampment upon privately owned or

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publicly owned land and local residents have become very

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distressed about that. I am sure the appropriate Minister will want to

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talk to my honourable friend about this particular case, but he might

:23:21.:23:25.

want to consider applying for an adjournment debate so he can discuss

:23:26.:23:32.

his views more fully and secure a detailed response from the Minister.

:23:33.:23:39.

The campaign for Better Transport has this week set out its concerns

:23:40.:23:43.

that the government's bus services Bill will have a huge impact on

:23:44.:23:48.

rural bus services. I regularly get complaints from constituents about

:23:49.:23:53.

the deterioration of their services, particularly in country areas,

:23:54.:23:56.

around Silloth and the Solway plain. Will he ensure that when the bill

:23:57.:24:00.

comes for debate in this House, there is proper time to discuss the

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impact on rural bus services? I'm sure there will be ample time to

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ensure we have those discussions which will be relevant to members

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across the House with rural constituencies. There are some real

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challenges in that many rural bus services to provide a vital lifeline

:24:23.:24:34.

which is quite a minority of people because the customer base shrinks

:24:35.:24:37.

but the services are also still important. I would hope that the

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debate encompasses things like the use of new technology to help

:24:41.:24:46.

provide community transport services which, in my constituency and

:24:47.:24:52.

others, are providing a very useful additional form of support to people

:24:53.:24:59.

living in villages. Could we have a debate on paediatric training in the

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NHS in England because in my constituency the children's

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emergency centre that County Hospital has been temporarily closed

:25:08.:25:12.

due to lack of sufficient trained staff, and I understand that I am

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not the only member of Parliament who has this problem in the

:25:15.:25:22.

constituency. I can understand, particularly given the history of

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hospital services in Staffordshire, via my honourable friend is so

:25:27.:25:30.

concerned, and he has been a very strong champion of patients in his

:25:31.:25:36.

constituency. I was sorry to hear what had happened. Obviously the

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local health authorities have taken the decision on grounds of patient

:25:41.:25:43.

safety, which clearly has to come first. I hope those local problems

:25:44.:25:52.

can be resolved as rapidly as possible and the government is

:25:53.:25:55.

certainly determined to continue to ensure that paediatric training

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standards are of the highest level possible. Can I take the opportunity

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to congratulate him on his appointment. In January the

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government announced welcome proposals for a partnership between

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the DFT and TEFL to specify franchises in London when an divine

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-- individual franchises lapse. How does the government take this

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forward in the months ahead? Thank you to the honourable gentleman for

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his welcome to me. I would draw his remarks to the attention of both the

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Minister for London and the appropriate Minister in the

:26:37.:26:38.

Department for Transport and ask one of them to make contact with him.

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I'm delighted at the importance of industrial strategy, now formally

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recognised, not least by being included in the title of a

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government department. Can we have a debate on its terms of reference,

:26:56.:27:01.

its aims and objectives? It sounds to me like this would be an

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excellent idea for my honourable friend to put forward to the

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gentleman opposite as the chairman of the backbench business committee.

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I'm sure my ministerial colleagues would welcome it, if such a debate

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was secured. The industrial strategy is going to be important for future

:27:21.:27:24.

prosperity in this country. It is important we have a strategy that

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works for all sectors of industry, particularly the new industry which

:27:32.:27:33.

will provide the growth and opportunity for the country in the

:27:34.:27:37.

future and that it is a strategy that works for all parts of the

:27:38.:27:43.

United Kingdom. Every single day in my constituency of Dundee I have low

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income workers getting in touch after the tax credit support, Rob

:27:47.:27:52.

Lee and without warning is stopped and HMRC payment by results model,

:27:53.:27:59.

in short, commission. It causes immense stress and hardship for

:28:00.:28:05.

households. 12% of all enquiries are about this very issue in my office.

:28:06.:28:09.

Will the House commit to an urgent debate on this matter before more

:28:10.:28:13.

people experience this harsh and brutal situation? Decisions about

:28:14.:28:22.

tax credits are not always what applicants want. It is very

:28:23.:28:26.

important. Every constituency MP would agree with the honourable

:28:27.:28:31.

gentleman, decisions are taken as promptly as possible and that they

:28:32.:28:34.

are accurate. He is right in saying people on low incomes are completely

:28:35.:28:40.

thrown if an application that is justified is suddenly either

:28:41.:28:44.

rejected, or there is an unjustifiable attempt to claw back

:28:45.:28:52.

money after the event. I will let the relevant Treasury Minister know

:28:53.:28:56.

about this particular point. It may be something he would like to seek a

:28:57.:29:03.

debate upon but I hope very much that the problems he has described

:29:04.:29:11.

will be resolved by HMRC and the contractor as rapidly as possible

:29:12.:29:13.

because constituents deserve a better service than that. To assist

:29:14.:29:20.

my honourable friend the leader of the House in the consideration of

:29:21.:29:24.

the Brexit process, I have an idea. I wonder if he could enlighten us as

:29:25.:29:29.

to the state of the discussions on the scrutiny by the select

:29:30.:29:33.

committees in the Brexit process? My perception is that it is clear that

:29:34.:29:36.

each department should have a select committee. We have two new

:29:37.:29:40.

departments and we should have two new select committees. Considering

:29:41.:29:45.

the complexity of the issue and the need for communities to be involved,

:29:46.:29:49.

it would help if we got going on the select committee as soon as possible

:29:50.:29:53.

and I wonder if he could help as I am sure the House would like to see

:29:54.:29:57.

this kind of scrutiny. I will do my best to help. These matters are

:29:58.:30:02.

subject to continued discussion between the usual channels. I think

:30:03.:30:07.

on anything related to the establishment of select committees,

:30:08.:30:12.

if it is humanly possible to have a cross-party agreement it is better

:30:13.:30:16.

we should achieve that. Thank you, Mr Speaker. There is a new and

:30:17.:30:23.

innovative charity established in my constituency to offer opportunities

:30:24.:30:27.

to people to get out and about in the outdoors in the Trossachs. Can

:30:28.:30:34.

we have a debate to explore how we can promote such excellent

:30:35.:30:40.

initiatives across the country? I think that is an excellent subject

:30:41.:30:44.

for the honourable gentleman to draw to the attention of DWP menaces at

:30:45.:30:52.

the next question Time will stop or for him to seek and add -- DWP at

:30:53.:30:58.

the next question Time. It seems to me the word should be spread and

:30:59.:31:02.

this could be an example in which we could copy. The next time we have a

:31:03.:31:09.

meaningful time to have debates will be in October. The government has

:31:10.:31:12.

given a lot of money to flood defences in the United Kingdom,

:31:13.:31:18.

another 12.5 million in Dover North. Can we have a statement from the

:31:19.:31:21.

Government about the future of flooding and flood defences. It

:31:22.:31:26.

affects the whole nation, not only see flooding, but internal flash

:31:27.:31:30.

flooding, and this has to have a continued debate in this chamber. My

:31:31.:31:37.

honourable friend raises an important point and of course I will

:31:38.:31:41.

recall his constituency was very badly affected by floods a couple of

:31:42.:31:46.

years ago. And he was the most fearless and outspoken champion of

:31:47.:31:54.

his constituents at that time. Coincidentally there has been a

:31:55.:31:59.

report published earlier today by Deborah on flooding and the future

:32:00.:32:07.

25 year plan for flood resilience. -- by the Department. I urge all

:32:08.:32:10.

members of the House to take an interest in this matter to study the

:32:11.:32:16.

report. It has a number of important conclusions and also proposals on

:32:17.:32:18.

how the Government will take things forward into the future. I notice

:32:19.:32:23.

request for a debate. Clearly I cannot promise that at the moment

:32:24.:32:26.

but I understand the subject's importance. On the 19th of August a

:32:27.:32:32.

faulty tumble dryer caused a major fire in Shepherd scored, and damaged

:32:33.:32:38.

a major block of flats. 26 families had to move out and it was a miracle

:32:39.:32:42.

there were no deaths, or serious injury. There are 1 million for the

:32:43.:32:46.

products not being recalled by the manufacturer. Can we have eight

:32:47.:32:51.

government statement on how many factors can be made to recall and

:32:52.:32:55.

replace faulty white goods as demanded by the London Fire Brigade

:32:56.:33:03.

total recall campaign? I think if there is a question in my mind about

:33:04.:33:08.

the legal position, if goods have indeed been sold that are

:33:09.:33:13.

demonstrably a threat to the safety of those customers, I would hope

:33:14.:33:19.

that if a situation like the one he described, the manufacturer should

:33:20.:33:24.

take note of his remarks and act accordingly. I shall ask the

:33:25.:33:32.

relevant Minister to have a look at the particular case. If you would

:33:33.:33:35.

like to write to me with the details I will happily passed those onto the

:33:36.:33:39.

relevant department and let's see if we can get appropriate action. I

:33:40.:33:47.

have a familiar question for my honourable friend as one of the

:33:48.:33:50.

longest serving Europe ministers. Can we have a statement after the

:33:51.:33:54.

new minister's visit to Cyprus, which coincides with three meetings

:33:55.:34:00.

taking place this week between the city and leaders and the president

:34:01.:34:03.

saying the end of the road has been reached and it is time to reunite

:34:04.:34:10.

Cyprus? I know that my right honourable friend, the member for

:34:11.:34:18.

Rutland and Melton would be delighted to talk to the member for

:34:19.:34:21.

Southgate about his recent visit to the island full stop I am sure all

:34:22.:34:27.

of us across the Florida house --. I am sure everyone in the House would

:34:28.:34:33.

like to see the country reunited and the Turkish and Cypriot communities

:34:34.:34:36.

brought together again. That would be a good day for the United

:34:37.:34:41.

Kingdom. I think there will be an opportunity to raise this at the

:34:42.:34:44.

next foreign office questions. I think a conversation between my

:34:45.:34:48.

honourable friend and the Minister is probably the best way forward.

:34:49.:34:54.

Yesterday, the BBC reported that Katrina Percy, the former Chief

:34:55.:34:58.

Executive of the sudden health trust, which has been investigated

:34:59.:35:05.

because of a lack of investigation into unexplained death at the trust

:35:06.:35:11.

had resigned from a post but was then shunted into a ?240,000 per

:35:12.:35:16.

year job created just for her with no other candidates. -- Sutton

:35:17.:35:23.

health trust. Can we have a debate about this very worrying decision?

:35:24.:35:30.

My understanding is that this was an appointment which was wholly within

:35:31.:35:34.

the jurisdiction of the local board of the relevant NHS trust and it is

:35:35.:35:42.

a decision which that board therefore needs to explain and for

:35:43.:35:47.

which they are accountable. Health provision is very important to all

:35:48.:35:53.

constituencies. With an ageing population and acute health needs.

:35:54.:35:58.

Given that, can we have a debate in government time about the NHS in the

:35:59.:36:03.

West Midlands and in particular mergers of CCG and NHS trusts

:36:04.:36:09.

serving my constituency? My honourable friend raises an

:36:10.:36:13.

important point. He is already in his first year in this House

:36:14.:36:16.

building up a reputation as somebody who really does stand up for good

:36:17.:36:21.

health services and the interest of patients in the West Midlands. He

:36:22.:36:27.

will have an opportunity on Tuesday the 11th of October when we have

:36:28.:36:30.

health questions to make some of these points to the ministerial

:36:31.:36:37.

team. The communities act application by new Council to

:36:38.:36:43.

control fixed odds betting terminals alongside 92 other councils which

:36:44.:36:45.

represent 42% of the population in England and were expired on the 14th

:36:46.:36:52.

of July. That act says the Government has to compromise with

:36:53.:36:54.

the negotiations and no debate has taken place. When will we get a

:36:55.:37:00.

statement on this important issue for a huge proportion of the

:37:01.:37:06.

country? I will ask the responsible minister to write to the honourable

:37:07.:37:11.

gentleman about that point. Can my right honourable friend arrange for

:37:12.:37:14.

the attorney general to make a statement about appealing against an

:37:15.:37:20.

Julie lenient sentences? A number of people in my constituents felt the

:37:21.:37:27.

sentence given to Anjem Choudary was derisory given the serious level of

:37:28.:37:32.

the offences he had committed. We found out today in the newspapers

:37:33.:37:36.

that the attorney general is not able to appeal against a lenient

:37:37.:37:40.

sentence for that particular crime. We promised in the manifesto to

:37:41.:37:44.

extend the number of crimes that could be appealed for being lenient

:37:45.:37:50.

in sentencing. When are we going to crack on with it? As he pointed out,

:37:51.:37:56.

big and was elected on a manifesto which pledged us to extend the list

:37:57.:38:03.

of crimes that were covered by the right of the attorney general to

:38:04.:38:07.

refer excessively lenient sentences to the Court of appeal. -- the

:38:08.:38:16.

Government was elected. Either the attorney or relevant justice

:38:17.:38:18.

minister will come forward with a statement to the House will stop the

:38:19.:38:28.

petitions --. The committee has agreed on a Parliamentary debate on

:38:29.:38:32.

grouse shooting after the session and there is a debate about the

:38:33.:38:37.

badger culling and I am sure we will reach the 100,000 required. When we

:38:38.:38:40.

had a debate on Westminster Hall this week, more than 40 MPs attended

:38:41.:38:44.

and a lotta people wanted to watch the debate but could not fit into

:38:45.:38:48.

the public gallery. Can we make sure that both of these debates are in

:38:49.:38:52.

the main chamber so people can come and watch and there is time for MPs

:38:53.:39:00.

to take part? There is always a pressure which government must

:39:01.:39:08.

wrestle with and there is also, the backbench business committee must

:39:09.:39:10.

wrestle with which matters are debated in Westminster Hall and

:39:11.:39:13.

which matters are debated in the chamber. She will have an additional

:39:14.:39:21.

opportunity on Thursday the 13th of October, when ministers from

:39:22.:39:23.

environment, food and rural affairs will be answering questions here. I

:39:24.:39:29.

know the leader of the House is very aware of the anxiety caused in Corby

:39:30.:39:32.

aroused the discussions ongoing about the future of the steel

:39:33.:39:37.

industry. Can we have a statement next week from ministers updating us

:39:38.:39:39.

on where we are with these discussions with the industry, the

:39:40.:39:45.

department and unions, so my constituents can be updated as to

:39:46.:39:50.

exactly where we are? I will make sure that the business secretary and

:39:51.:39:55.

the international trade secretary are aware of my friend's concerns. I

:39:56.:40:01.

understand the importance of the steel issue is for his constituents

:40:02.:40:08.

in Corby. The Prime Minister said in her statement on the G20 yesterday

:40:09.:40:17.

that she had raised the question of overproduction on global markets in

:40:18.:40:20.

the plenary session of the G20 leaders when she had been in China.

:40:21.:40:27.

And she hoped that would lead to the international powers considering a

:40:28.:40:37.

way forward to manage this. The leader of the House is very popular

:40:38.:40:43.

in my constituency. And I have been asked to ask this question, whether

:40:44.:40:48.

they voted for Brexit or to Remain, if this is a sovereign Parliament,

:40:49.:40:53.

why did they concede the deal and why has a sovereign Parliament can

:40:54.:40:56.

we not have a vote? Because they love him so much they would like a

:40:57.:40:59.

debate on the closure of accident and emergency in Huddersfield and

:41:00.:41:04.

with the landfill tax going up to ?85 across West Yorkshire, we are

:41:05.:41:11.

getting fires and unscrupulous waste contractors are setting fire to

:41:12.:41:16.

waste in order to save money, can we have debates on all of those

:41:17.:41:22.

subjects? I think all the waste management question he will have the

:41:23.:41:30.

opportunity at questions on the 13th of October. On the local health

:41:31.:41:34.

issue there are questions on Tuesday the 11th of October to the health

:41:35.:41:36.

ministers. As someone who the House knows was

:41:37.:41:47.

on the Remain side of the campaign, if we are Democrats, however

:41:48.:41:50.

reluctantly, to accept the result. If the result had been the other way

:41:51.:41:55.

round, I would have been the first to say to my colleagues supporting

:41:56.:41:59.

the leave campaign that it was time to fold up their tent. We have to

:42:00.:42:02.

respect the view that the electors have taken. As I am sure the whole

:42:03.:42:12.

House will be aware, the world black pudding throwing Championships are

:42:13.:42:19.

taking place in Ramsbottom in my constituency this weekend. It dates

:42:20.:42:24.

back to the War of the Roses. Can we please have a statement on what the

:42:25.:42:28.

government will be doing to promote this prestigious and historic event

:42:29.:42:35.

in the future? For a moment I thought he was going to propose this

:42:36.:42:39.

as an experimental support for the Tokyo Olympics and for -- in four

:42:40.:42:48.

years. I think he has made his point very forcefully, as usual today. I

:42:49.:42:54.

hope he gets the chance to sample the black puddings before they are

:42:55.:43:02.

thrown, rather than afterwords. Does giving evidence, -- when giving

:43:03.:43:16.

evidence, the predecessor offered to come to my constituency to discuss

:43:17.:43:25.

English votes for English laws, much to the disappointment of my

:43:26.:43:28.

constituents. Will the new Leader of the House visit my constituency to

:43:29.:43:32.

discuss this with my constituents in his place? Just say yes!

:43:33.:43:42.

LAUGHTER It is a delight to have such a tempting offer.

:43:43.:43:51.

Her constituency like many others in Scotland contains vibrant

:43:52.:43:53.

communities and absolutely wonderful landscapes. But while I would hope

:43:54.:44:01.

to be able to visit North Ayrshire at some stage in the future, I

:44:02.:44:05.

cannot give a firm diary commitment at the moment. I welcome the

:44:06.:44:11.

statement that there will be a debate on the government's Tobacco

:44:12.:44:15.

control programme. The issue at hand is that the control programme that

:44:16.:44:21.

was running for five years has expired, and we were promised a

:44:22.:44:27.

replacement in the summer of 2016. I realise the summer stretches into

:44:28.:44:31.

the autumn, but we still do not have the new programme published. The

:44:32.:44:36.

government has met the targets it set itself under the five-year

:44:37.:44:40.

programme, but during that debate can my right honourable friend make

:44:41.:44:45.

sure that the Minister announces the date for publication and that it is

:44:46.:44:50.

announced in this place? I will make sure the Minister knows, my

:44:51.:44:53.

honourable friend will have an opportunity not just to take part in

:44:54.:44:57.

the back bends business debate -- backbench business debate, but in

:44:58.:45:02.

the debate on the 11th of October. When will members of the House now

:45:03.:45:07.

when they can elect the chairs of the select committees? I hope as

:45:08.:45:15.

soon as possible. Obviously after this week we have to provide for an

:45:16.:45:17.

additional select committee But I hope this is not delayed

:45:18.:45:30.

indefinitely. Will the Leader of the House look again at the time

:45:31.:45:35.

allocated for the development of international trade. I do not think

:45:36.:45:38.

the leader was in his place this morning when we had half an hour for

:45:39.:45:41.

questions to the culture department then half an hour regarding the

:45:42.:45:47.

international trade Department. There are almost 50 questions listed

:45:48.:45:51.

on the order paper for a one-hour period, whereas a normal one-hour

:45:52.:45:56.

slot would only have about 35. Despite his huge experience, the

:45:57.:45:59.

Speaker had to make heroic efforts to try to squeeze everyone in, and

:46:00.:46:05.

even then it overran by ten minutes. Surely we can do better than this,

:46:06.:46:11.

given the importance of international trade post Brexit? I

:46:12.:46:18.

will look at what experience tells us of the new roster for oral

:46:19.:46:25.

questions and if the House needs to be asked to review this again then

:46:26.:46:29.

we will do that. I think that will be very welcome in the House. The

:46:30.:46:34.

danger otherwise is that there is a recipe for disappointment. There is

:46:35.:46:40.

always unsatisfied demand, but it was very, very striking this

:46:41.:46:44.

morning. Huge numbers and a lot were disappointed. I have also been

:46:45.:46:54.

contacted by hundreds of single women over the summer who have been

:46:55.:46:57.

affected by the behaviour of concentric. I received a written

:46:58.:47:04.

parliamentary answer yesterday to see the contractor had breached its

:47:05.:47:08.

performance standards on 120 occasions over the last 11 months.

:47:09.:47:12.

Can we have an urgent debate about the behaviour and performance of

:47:13.:47:18.

this contract so it cannot punish individuals and particularly single

:47:19.:47:27.

women for another day? Clearly the number of contract breaches she has

:47:28.:47:29.

described is completely unacceptable. I think that she might

:47:30.:47:37.

want to write to the financial Secretary is probably the right

:47:38.:47:42.

minister at the Secretary to make sure the concerns are being directed

:47:43.:47:46.

correctly to the ministers dealing with HMRC, but it seems to me that

:47:47.:47:50.

it is the responsibility of the HMRC senior management to manage their

:47:51.:47:57.

contract effectively and for the contractor to deliver rant delivered

:47:58.:48:00.

a decent service to her constituents and everyone else's. -- to deliver a

:48:01.:48:17.

decent service. The decision by southern health was greeted with a

:48:18.:48:21.

fit of apoplexy in my constituency, but can we have a debate on the

:48:22.:48:30.

scandalous and enduring and read duopoly of the wholesale newspaper

:48:31.:48:33.

distribution market and the disastrous consequences this has for

:48:34.:48:43.

independent retailers? My honourable friend is obviously returning with

:48:44.:48:50.

relish and energy to his new role as a backbench champion, particularly

:48:51.:48:53.

for small retailers in his constituency. I am sure he knows the

:48:54.:49:01.

ropes well enough to know that an adjournment debates might well be

:49:02.:49:05.

the opportunity to discuss these concerns further. I was recently

:49:06.:49:14.

contacted by a constituent when she discovered her energy account had a

:49:15.:49:19.

standing charge of 14p per day higher than other constituents. Aeon

:49:20.:49:22.

tell me that they are entitled to charge a higher rate for those who

:49:23.:49:28.

do not pay their accounts by direct debit, but this

:49:29.:49:41.

amounts to... -- E.on. The way forward would be for the honourable

:49:42.:49:46.

gentleman to see if he could catch the eye of the Speaker for business

:49:47.:49:55.

energy questions and he could put those points to the ministers. Mayor

:49:56.:49:59.

also strongly endorse what was said by the honourable member for Heywood

:50:00.:50:04.

and Middleton, and my right honourable friend for New Forest

:50:05.:50:09.

West about the extraordinary decision of the southern health

:50:10.:50:13.

trust to create a host with a salary greater than that of the Prime

:50:14.:50:16.

Minister to accommodate someone whose position as Chief Executive

:50:17.:50:22.

had become untenable, but may I ask for a ministerial statement on the

:50:23.:50:27.

plight of Afghan and other former interpreters for British Armed

:50:28.:50:31.

Forces in hostile environments who have applied for but not yet been

:50:32.:50:38.

given asylum in this country? This is not only a debt of honour but

:50:39.:50:41.

something that is necessary for the future functioning of British troops

:50:42.:50:46.

in hostile environments when we are greatly dependent upon indigenous

:50:47.:50:53.

interpreters. He raises an important point. Clearly it is a very

:50:54.:50:59.

important principle that asylum decisions are all taken on the

:51:00.:51:04.

merits of each particular case, and that is true of applications of

:51:05.:51:11.

former interpreters as well as everyone else. But the Ministry of

:51:12.:51:16.

Defence and the Home Office continue to review the overall situation in

:51:17.:51:22.

order to ensure that we are providing protection to people who

:51:23.:51:31.

have helped to protect us, -- to protect us. My right honourable

:51:32.:51:35.

friend will be pleased to know that on Monday the 12th of September,

:51:36.:51:39.

next week, we have defence questions, which may be something he

:51:40.:51:43.

wishes to raise with defence ministers Ben. May we have a

:51:44.:51:49.

statement on reports that emerged over the summer that the government

:51:50.:51:55.

equalities office has awarded G4S the contract to deliver the helpline

:51:56.:52:12.

. The matter is urgent, I understand the contract is due to take effect

:52:13.:52:16.

from the 1st of October, so could the leader make a statement on the

:52:17.:52:19.

subject next week, as people have expressed concern at G4S providing

:52:20.:52:26.

public services? I will draw the concern to the attention of the

:52:27.:52:29.

relevant Minister dealing with the government office for the qualities.

:52:30.:52:36.

Parliamentary scrutiny of Sports Direct has helped employees get a

:52:37.:52:40.

better deal from a rogue employer. May we have a debate on a good

:52:41.:52:47.

increase in the minimum wage leading some employers to cut back terms and

:52:48.:52:51.

conditions further staff, leading to a net reduction in pay? That cannot

:52:52.:52:59.

be right. Badge for your staff. It is not right, but I would have hoped

:53:00.:53:02.

that the honourable gentleman would have acknowledged that by setting

:53:03.:53:05.

the first-ever national living wage it is this government that has

:53:06.:53:10.

lifted considerably the minimum levels of pay that the low paid

:53:11.:53:14.

employers can no expect around the country. -- can now expect. The

:53:15.:53:22.

honourable member for North the Beds asked what progress has been made

:53:23.:53:28.

for setting up select committees to scrutinise the new departments of

:53:29.:53:31.

exiting the European Union and the new Department of International

:53:32.:53:33.

trade, and he said discussions are ongoing. When we get back on the

:53:34.:53:37.

10th of October, it will be more than 3.5 months since the

:53:38.:53:41.

referendum. We have had very little detail this week of what is actually

:53:42.:53:44.

proposed by the government. I am sure that lots of other honourable

:53:45.:53:49.

members are inundated with requests about what the government are going

:53:50.:53:54.

to do in light of the vote. Can he guarantee that when we return here

:53:55.:53:58.

on the 10th of October, the select committees will be a position to get

:53:59.:54:02.

up and running and scrutinise these departments to try to get the

:54:03.:54:07.

answers we have not had this week? I very much want that to be the

:54:08.:54:10.

position, I hope the ongoing discussions through the usual

:54:11.:54:12.

channels have a successful outcome soon. Can we have a debate on the

:54:13.:54:21.

performance of South-eastern Trains. The government has put ?20 million

:54:22.:54:24.

into trying to sort out the mess of suburban trains. But my constituents

:54:25.:54:28.

are suffering equally because of the poor performance of this company

:54:29.:54:32.

behaving like they have one foot out of the door because they can see the

:54:33.:54:34.

prospect of TEFL taking over the franchise. -- TfL. He will have the

:54:35.:54:52.

opportunity to raise this with Transport Minister is next week. One

:54:53.:55:00.

of my constituents is waiting for a decision from the DW P regarding his

:55:01.:55:10.

condition. On the 12th of January I was advised a decision whether or

:55:11.:55:13.

not to add this to the list of prescribed diseases will be made

:55:14.:55:16.

early this year. As we are still waiting, can we have a ministerial

:55:17.:55:21.

statement to explain this delay and bring these deliberations to a

:55:22.:55:29.

conclusion? I will draw that matter to the attention of DWP ministers

:55:30.:55:35.

because whatever the decision is to be, the sooner that people know the

:55:36.:55:42.

outcome, the better. The Leader of the House and I have something in

:55:43.:55:45.

common, in that we were both 1's contestants on University challenge.

:55:46.:55:51.

If we were able to have a debate on enhancing democracy, how would he

:55:52.:55:56.

answer this starter for ten, under what school for logic do you enhance

:55:57.:56:01.

democracy by cutting the number of elected politicians and increasing

:56:02.:56:06.

the number of unelected peers? I said to him earlier, I wish I had

:56:07.:56:14.

been the consensus that was absent about the House of Lords, but we are

:56:15.:56:21.

where we are on that, and I doubt the opinion of the House of Commons

:56:22.:56:24.

has changed all that much since we have been -- had to be aborted

:56:25.:56:29.

attempt at reform. I think the answer to him as that he really

:56:30.:56:36.

cannot evade the central point, that we are now operating on electoral

:56:37.:56:44.

registers based on a census taken in 2001. It is now very out of date,

:56:45.:56:47.

given population changes that have taken place, and it is also just

:56:48.:56:54.

plainly wrong to continue with a situation in which constituency

:56:55.:57:01.

electorates are of such disparate sizes which means there is gross

:57:02.:57:05.

inequality between the weight of votes of individual electors.

:57:06.:57:10.

In June of this year, one of my constituents was killed because of a

:57:11.:57:23.

gas blow out at a minus. In August, a contract worker was electrocuted

:57:24.:57:28.

doing service work at the same mind. Back in April, 11 miners escaped

:57:29.:57:31.

with their lives after oxygen ran out. The mining has been

:57:32.:57:38.

investigated over the past 12 months. Those 11 miners, some of

:57:39.:57:44.

which have had to return to work with post-traumatic stress disorder,

:57:45.:57:47.

due to the fact the sick pay is not enough to cover the costs of feeding

:57:48.:57:53.

a wife and children... Can we have a debate in relation to health and

:57:54.:57:56.

safety work and locations of workers having to return to work because

:57:57.:58:00.

sick pay is not adequate enough, when companies have accepted

:58:01.:58:05.

liability? I am grateful to the honourable gentleman to -- for

:58:06.:58:10.

bringing a serious matter to my attention. I want to express my

:58:11.:58:14.

sympathy with those of his constituents who have gone through

:58:15.:58:17.

this horrific experience and also their families. What he raises

:58:18.:58:26.

crosses the border between the Department of business and energy

:58:27.:58:34.

and the DWP in respect of benefits. What I will do is I will draw this

:58:35.:58:39.

question to the attention of ministers in both departments. He

:58:40.:58:42.

might also like to raise this ad business and energy questions when

:58:43.:58:47.

it comes macro up. Or seek an adjournment debate so there can be a

:58:48.:58:49.

consolidated ministerial response across government addressing these

:58:50.:58:59.

concerns. Three people a day die due to a shortage of transplantable

:59:00.:59:06.

organs. Earlier this week a quadruple amputee poses -- pose nude

:59:07.:59:10.

with her body displaying transplantable organs.

:59:11.:59:22.

The honourable gentleman has used today's opportunity well to

:59:23.:59:27.

highlight his support for organ donation. I know constituents who

:59:28.:59:37.

have been given not only a longer life, but a life of unexpectedly

:59:38.:59:45.

improved quality because of a successful organ transplant. I am

:59:46.:59:50.

sure that he can find many ways in which to highlight this matter

:59:51.:59:56.

during Parliamentary proceedings. Order. We will come to the

:59:57.:00:06.

honourable gentleman in due course. Point of order. Can you advise me

:00:07.:00:12.

how best I can bring my concerns to the attentions of the House in

:00:13.:00:16.

relation to the boundary review and House of Lords reform? It seems

:00:17.:00:19.

perverse to reduce the number of elected representatives in this

:00:20.:00:23.

place, while the Lords continues to gorge itself on new arrivals. Mr

:00:24.:00:29.

Speaker, I believe in an appointed other House but not at the current

:00:30.:00:33.

price and not at the expense of this elected and therefore accountable

:00:34.:00:38.

chamber. Mr Speaker, we in this place must guard against bringing

:00:39.:00:41.

this country's democratic settlement into disrepute.

:00:42.:00:51.

Is it further to that? Let's here from the honourable member from

:00:52.:00:56.

Shipley and I will respond to both. I absolutely endorse everything my

:00:57.:01:00.

honourable friend has just said. In addition, we have a situation

:01:01.:01:03.

whereby the government are proposing to reduce the number of MPs by 50,

:01:04.:01:08.

but not reduce the number of ministers by an equal proportion,

:01:09.:01:11.

thereby giving the government more control over the House of Commons,

:01:12.:01:15.

which clearly has to be an outrage. That is something that needs to be

:01:16.:01:19.

considered in conjunction with the points raised by my honourable

:01:20.:01:23.

friend. I'm grateful to both honourable members are raising the

:01:24.:01:29.

points of order. Let me deal with each intern. In relation to the

:01:30.:01:33.

point of order from the honourable gentleman from who is the

:01:34.:01:37.

illustrious chair of the procedure committee of the House, I remind

:01:38.:01:43.

colleagues that the honourable gentleman asked the chair by what

:01:44.:01:47.

means he can register his concern. As the honourable gentleman knows,

:01:48.:01:51.

because he is sagacious, he has found his own salvation. He made his

:01:52.:01:56.

own point with his own inimitable aliquots and it is on the record. I

:01:57.:02:00.

know how strongly feels about it. -- eloquence. These matters would

:02:01.:02:07.

totally be further debated. Secondly, in relation to the

:02:08.:02:13.

honourable member from Shipley, I note the force of his point about

:02:14.:02:19.

reductions in numbers of MPs. Needing, as he sees it, to be

:02:20.:02:23.

accompanied by reductions in the number of ministers. The honourable

:02:24.:02:31.

gentleman has got such a long established good memory for what

:02:32.:02:34.

people have said in the past, that I feel sure that although he did not

:02:35.:02:38.

say it today, he will be well aware that I myself expatriated on this

:02:39.:02:45.

matter on the 19th of January, 2011, in a lecture on the Institute to

:02:46.:02:49.

government. On that occasion I made the point it would be a rum business

:02:50.:02:53.

to reduce the number of MPs but not to cut the number of ministers. I

:02:54.:02:59.

Therefore I am very happy to say it Therefore I am very happy to say it

:03:00.:03:03.

again five and a half years later and to be write a second time. -- to

:03:04.:03:12.

be correct. I am not sure either of them were a point of order but they

:03:13.:03:14.

were jolly good fun. Point of order, Kerry McCarthy.

:03:15.:03:21.

Yesterday I asked what recent progress has been made on the

:03:22.:03:23.

national flood resilience review. We didn't reach question 12. I received

:03:24.:03:30.

a written response later that day which said the review has been

:03:31.:03:34.

assessing how England could be better protected from flooding and

:03:35.:03:37.

extreme rainfall. The review has been working to identify actions

:03:38.:03:40.

needed to strengthen our resilience to flooding. That is one of those

:03:41.:03:44.

answers that tells you absolutely nothing. To my surprise, this

:03:45.:03:47.

morning, we had a written ministerial statement and a hefty

:03:48.:03:52.

document published. The written statement, although it is for the

:03:53.:03:57.

Secretary of State, is in the joint names of her and the Cabinet office

:03:58.:04:03.

minister. Is it not at the very least extremely discourteous to not

:04:04.:04:08.

flag it up yesterday? Or does it suggest the Cabinet office minister

:04:09.:04:12.

was not aware he was about to publish this review? It would be

:04:13.:04:16.

rather disturbing, it has to be said, if a minister of the Cabinet

:04:17.:04:19.

office were unaware of the imminent publication in his or a colleague's

:04:20.:04:26.

name of such a report. I find that very hard to credit. I think what I

:04:27.:04:30.

would say to the honourable lady is that it may be regarded as

:04:31.:04:34.

discourteous. That is a matter of opinion to some extent. What I can

:04:35.:04:39.

safely say is that it was, at the very least, unhelpful. There is a

:04:40.:04:44.

general principle that ministerial answers should be as informative as

:04:45.:04:49.

possible. It was unhelpful. I think I can say, possibly at the risk of

:04:50.:04:53.

irritating the Cabinet office minister, which I will have to bear

:04:54.:04:57.

with stoicism and fortitude, at the very least it was extremely

:04:58.:05:03.

unimaginative of the minister and string not to consider providing

:05:04.:05:07.

more information, or alternatively to consider and then to decline.

:05:08.:05:12.

Very unsatisfactory. We really ought to be able to do better than that.

:05:13.:05:19.

The great thing we have on our side, the new leader of the House, and

:05:20.:05:23.

this was flagged up in a moment ago, is of course, I think twice a winner

:05:24.:05:32.

on University challenge, with a gap of 30 years in between. It used to

:05:33.:05:38.

be said that the honourable gentleman, the member for haven't in

:05:39.:05:42.

the last Parliament, was two brains. I leave colleagues to speculate or

:05:43.:05:49.

indeed to compute how many brains the leader of the House has. He is a

:05:50.:05:52.

very cerebrovascular. I am sure that he can spawn more imaginative

:05:53.:05:56.

thinking among his ministerial colleagues. -- so readable. Point of

:05:57.:06:03.

order, Kevin Brennan. May I point out in all modesty that

:06:04.:06:07.

I was also twice a winner on University challenge.

:06:08.:06:15.

I must admit, I didn't know that. But I do now and I promise not to

:06:16.:06:19.

forget it. Point of order, Kerry McCarthy. I

:06:20.:06:26.

was on the first-ever season of blockbusters!

:06:27.:06:34.

The honourable lady has made the best case that she can. We thank her

:06:35.:06:41.

for that. Now, a point of order, chair of the Foreign Affairs Select

:06:42.:06:44.

Committee, Mr Crispin Blunt. This is pursuant to the point of

:06:45.:06:48.

order yesterday where there has been a further development increasing its

:06:49.:06:51.

seriousness, which you acknowledged yesterday. On Monday, the Guardian

:06:52.:06:56.

reported the central recommendation of a draft report being put to a

:06:57.:06:59.

committee on arms export control. The meeting to consider this was

:07:00.:07:04.

held yesterday in private. On Tuesday, Newsnight produced excerpts

:07:05.:07:07.

of the text of the draft report, which was the subject of the

:07:08.:07:11.

honourable member for Rhondda's point of order. Yesterday the

:07:12.:07:15.

committee met and resolved to report the matter to the liaison committee,

:07:16.:07:19.

who will have to consider the matter and decide whether it should be

:07:20.:07:22.

referred to the privileges committee, who will then decide

:07:23.:07:25.

whether and how to pursue the matter. Subsequent to that, last

:07:26.:07:29.

night, Newsnight reported extracts of the amendments tabled by the

:07:30.:07:34.

right Honourable member for Wardley and myself, which can only have come

:07:35.:07:38.

from the Consolidated list of amendments which was circulated to

:07:39.:07:43.

members of the committee on Tuesday. Sagbo -- separately, the Guardian

:07:44.:07:48.

today reported the number of amendments we had tabled to the

:07:49.:07:53.

report, which was not reported on Newsnight. On Newsnight, they chose

:07:54.:07:57.

to contextualise the amendments put by my right honourable friend and I

:07:58.:08:03.

in light of our previous membership of the all-party group for Saudi

:08:04.:08:06.

Arabia, and work I had done in the Middle East 12 years ago. And the

:08:07.:08:10.

right honourable gentleman's record in supporting the employment

:08:11.:08:16.

provided by the British defence industry. They emphasised none of

:08:17.:08:19.

this was improper but it gives you a sense of where people stand. In

:08:20.:08:24.

parallel to this, members of the committee received somewhere between

:08:25.:08:29.

1500 and 2000 e-mails on Tuesday and overnight, which appear to have been

:08:30.:08:36.

organised on someone's behalf by a self-styled global citizens

:08:37.:08:39.

movement, where the committee was meeting to consider this issue. The

:08:40.:08:42.

Right honourable gentleman from Warley West believes one was from a

:08:43.:08:47.

constituent. My office did not identify any constituents before

:08:48.:08:50.

calling the organisation inviting them to desist. This relates to a

:08:51.:08:59.

case on a deliberate campaign to influence the committee, relying on

:09:00.:09:03.

information provided by a member of this House or their staff.

:09:04.:09:06.

Conceivably it could have gone from committee staff but I think that is

:09:07.:09:11.

highly unlikely. I cannot recall an example of such deliberate and

:09:12.:09:14.

repeated leaking of information in our time in the House. Would you

:09:15.:09:19.

confirm that it would not be open to the privileges committee to calling

:09:20.:09:25.

the police as this in the -- this is not a criminal matter, but they

:09:26.:09:28.

would be able to call on the services of private investigators to

:09:29.:09:31.

have the capacity to interrogate electronic rebels, including deleted

:09:32.:09:37.

e-mails, of potential sources of this confidential and private

:09:38.:09:43.

consideration of select committees in this instance involving life and

:09:44.:09:48.

death issues and the employment of tens of thousands of our citizens?

:09:49.:09:52.

Could you encourage the liaison committee to consider this as a

:09:53.:09:55.

matter of urgency and confirming your view of the seriousness of this

:09:56.:09:59.

attempt to undermine the work of select committees?

:10:00.:10:08.

Point of order, Doctor Julian Lewis. Mr Speaker, I participated only in

:10:09.:10:11.

two meetings of that committee because three other members of the

:10:12.:10:15.

Defence Commitee have been nominated as a regular attenders. I have total

:10:16.:10:21.

confidence in them. Can I express disquiet at something I did learn

:10:22.:10:24.

only yesterday, which was that this draft report, which is very one

:10:25.:10:30.

sided, was produced without any heads of report discussion prior to

:10:31.:10:35.

the drafting of the report, which means there was no opportunity for

:10:36.:10:39.

members of the committee who dissented from the thrust of this

:10:40.:10:44.

report to raise their objections and to try and reach a consensus before

:10:45.:10:50.

a draft report was produced, and thus was leaked in a very

:10:51.:10:55.

sensational way. I have to say, from someone who has been at one remove

:10:56.:10:59.

from the operation of this committee, that something went

:11:00.:11:01.

terribly wrong with the procedures because they shouldn't be room for a

:11:02.:11:06.

consensus to have been built before any such one-sided report was

:11:07.:11:10.

leaked. I say that as someone highly critical of Saudi Arabia myself and

:11:11.:11:14.

in some sympathy with some of the arguments in the draft.

:11:15.:11:19.

With respect to what he has just said, I am intimately conscious that

:11:20.:11:32.

I cannot and shouldn't intervene in all pronounced overlay on the way in

:11:33.:11:38.

which select committees of the House conduct their affairs. From my own

:11:39.:11:44.

past experience as a member of several select committees before

:11:45.:11:48.

being elected to the chair, it was certainly mine normal and satisfied

:11:49.:11:53.

expectation that, before a draft report was produced, there would be

:11:54.:11:57.

a period of considerable discussion by the committee, not only about

:11:58.:12:05.

track to headings -- chapter headings but more so than about the

:12:06.:12:12.

direction of travel which they could partake in on the first draft. It

:12:13.:12:15.

would be member led rather than chair decreed, still less official

:12:16.:12:24.

determined. I understand the sense of thanks to which he has conveyed

:12:25.:12:28.

in a reasonable, balanced way. I think colleagues would do well to

:12:29.:12:33.

consider what he has said. More widely, I would say this. If

:12:34.:12:37.

colleagues want to come back, they will. The committees on arms export

:12:38.:12:42.

controls carry out extremely valuable work. To do this, they do

:12:43.:12:48.

rely on the corporation and consensus of the chairs and members

:12:49.:12:53.

of four select committees. I very much hope that this corporation can

:12:54.:12:59.

be maintained. So that the House can benefit from their important work.

:13:00.:13:00.

-- Corporation. There has been focused on the matter

:13:01.:13:13.

of the leak and what might flow from that. Let me say this. It is for the

:13:14.:13:19.

committees concerned to investigate the cause of the apparently, to

:13:20.:13:22.

decide whether or not it constitutes a substantial interference with

:13:23.:13:27.

their work, a matter on which other members who were not on the

:13:28.:13:32.

committee might also have a view, and to inform the liaison committee

:13:33.:13:39.

in the process seeking its use. Thereafter, it would be sensible to

:13:40.:13:47.

decide whether to make a special report which would stand referred to

:13:48.:13:52.

the committee of privileges. When the honourable gentleman asks me

:13:53.:13:57.

about the use of Private investigators, I can say only that I

:13:58.:14:02.

don't know whether that would be effective in this instance, although

:14:03.:14:05.

it is conceivable that it might be, but I think probably the best

:14:06.:14:11.

approach for me to take is to say, let the liaison committee, which is

:14:12.:14:18.

an established and respected committee within this House, to make

:14:19.:14:23.

its judgment. It is legitimate for colleagues to make representations

:14:24.:14:25.

to the committee as to what they think should happen, but rather than

:14:26.:14:29.

the Speaker say what the liaison committee should do, the liaison

:14:30.:14:32.

committee should consider the matter carefully, taking note of these

:14:33.:14:39.

points of order in deciding how to proceed. This is a very serious

:14:40.:14:45.

matter indeed. If the committees are this House are to work collectively,

:14:46.:14:50.

we cannot have a situation in which individual members of the committee

:14:51.:14:56.

leak in advance to advance a particular point of view or to

:14:57.:15:02.

retard progress of another. That is against this period of the select

:15:03.:15:08.

committees of this House. If there are no further points of order, and

:15:09.:15:13.

I thank colleagues for what they have said and the spirit in which

:15:14.:15:19.

they have said it, we come to the backbench motion on scamming and its

:15:20.:15:24.

effects on vulnerable individuals. To move the motions, Michael Mr

:15:25.:15:30.

Julian Knight. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I beg to move the motion as

:15:31.:15:33.

on the order paper in relation to scamming and its effect on

:15:34.:15:40.

vulnerable individuals. It is, Mr Speaker, difficult to overstate the

:15:41.:15:45.

damage done to our economy, society by scam artists and frauds. These

:15:46.:15:51.

people are on some of our most vulnerable citizens and can strike

:15:52.:15:54.

at ceremony point in our lives, whether we are buying a home, hiring

:15:55.:15:57.

a tradesman or investing our pensions. As a former consumer

:15:58.:16:02.

rights and personal finance journalist, I have seen first hand

:16:03.:16:07.

the hand that these forces can do. They not only leave people poorer,

:16:08.:16:12.

Madam Deputy Speaker, but can also cause a huge range of health and

:16:13.:16:15.

confidence problems far into the future. For example, in 2003, whilst

:16:16.:16:22.

working for the BBC, I covered a story of a Southampton pensioner who

:16:23.:16:26.

fell victim to scam artists attending to represent something

:16:27.:16:30.

called the Canadian lottery. They convinced him to wire 1006 under

:16:31.:16:37.

pounds in administration fees to Canada to unlock the money. It is,

:16:38.:16:41.

of course, never materialised. There were only escalating demands for

:16:42.:16:47.

more cash. Good money but after bad. In the end, this individual paid out

:16:48.:16:53.

more than ?9,000 to these fraudsters. In a particularly cruel

:16:54.:16:56.

twist, Ireland him telling me that he had been told to wait up with his

:16:57.:17:01.

wife because there were someone going to call at his house with the

:17:02.:17:05.

cheque and a bunch of flowers to deliver his winnings. The door was

:17:06.:17:13.

never not. When they smoked it him again, they laughed down the phone

:17:14.:17:18.

at him about their own crawly. It is easy to form snap judgments on those

:17:19.:17:26.

who fall victims to these. 5% of cases come to light. I will give

:17:27.:17:36.

way. I am grateful to him. He is making a good case it. Does she

:17:37.:17:40.

agree with me that these crooks are getting ever more sophisticated,

:17:41.:17:47.

with the use of scanning technology and the ability to take a photograph

:17:48.:17:52.

of a picture on the Internet, the very often will copy the logos and

:17:53.:17:58.

trademarks of reputable companies, which makes it even harder to detect

:17:59.:18:04.

that it is a scam? I thank him for making that point. He is correct.

:18:05.:18:08.

The fact is, it seems to be that it is an ever rising tide and ever more

:18:09.:18:14.

sophisticated in its focus. Talking about logos, they also use

:18:15.:18:18.

governmental logos, the HM RC, for example, and other elements of

:18:19.:18:23.

government. They also use logos which sort of a very close to

:18:24.:18:28.

governmental logos and other such cause I institutions. He is right to

:18:29.:18:33.

raise that. It is easy to come to snap judgments, and these people

:18:34.:18:38.

come to snap judgments about themselves and their own

:18:39.:18:41.

foolishness. This gentleman was no fool, he had run his own business

:18:42.:18:44.

for more than 30 years. The scammers were not only persuasive at the

:18:45.:18:49.

parade on his very best instincts. Especially the thought of how he

:18:50.:18:51.

could help his children with the winnings. I would like to thank the

:18:52.:18:56.

honourable member for Ayrshire and Arran, who is -- who co-signed this.

:18:57.:19:08.

Other than the seven come to me to recount their stories of

:19:09.:19:10.

constituents in that respect. I was struck by one from the honourable

:19:11.:19:20.

member for Banbury, who told of one lady who was robbed of ?35,000 by

:19:21.:19:26.

people who were standing by and -- who were pretending to be an

:19:27.:19:32.

antifraud Department in her own bag. Her savings have not been returned.

:19:33.:19:37.

It had a devastating impact, not just financial but emotional, on the

:19:38.:19:42.

lady concerned. These stories are just two amongst thousands that

:19:43.:19:45.

occur each and every year. It highlights why we need to do more to

:19:46.:19:49.

combat this detestable style of crime. I would also like to thank

:19:50.:19:56.

many external organisations that got in touch with me, especially those

:19:57.:20:00.

that provided so much useful data and information, such as the

:20:01.:20:02.

chartered Trading Standards institution, H UK, financial fraud

:20:03.:20:12.

action UK, standard life and the consultancy. The cost of fraud is

:20:13.:20:19.

truly astonishing. According to the chartered Trading Standards

:20:20.:20:22.

Institute, the annual cost of frauds comes to the 2 billion -- ?252

:20:23.:20:30.

billion each year. That is more than we spend on defence or education. If

:20:31.:20:34.

we cut that figure by 10%, we would be really injecting ?5 billion into

:20:35.:20:40.

people's savings and into the wider economy itself. That would equate to

:20:41.:20:45.

much of the economic boost that is coming recently through the payment

:20:46.:20:48.

protection insurance that have taken place. I will give way. I am an

:20:49.:20:55.

called to him for giving way and also for leading this debate. My

:20:56.:21:01.

constituency, a quarter of the population is over the age of 65,

:21:02.:21:05.

and with the average age of those who are being scammed being 74, my

:21:06.:21:09.

constituents are particularly concerned about that. He mentioned

:21:10.:21:13.

the financial cost, which is important, but these are some of the

:21:14.:21:18.

most vulnerable in our society and our constituency so what being

:21:19.:21:21.

scammed. It is not just the financial cost but also the human

:21:22.:21:24.

cost as well. I could not agree more. The demographics of our

:21:25.:21:31.

constituents in terms of age are very similar in that regard. 47% are

:21:32.:21:38.

over sickly five on my constituency full sub 74 is the average age. It

:21:39.:21:42.

is a case that the approach in main different ways, but they

:21:43.:21:50.

instinctively target elderly people in the main, but not to the is of

:21:51.:21:53.

anyone else. Older generations are often quite polite and they don't

:21:54.:21:57.

want to put the phone down straight away. They might respond to a

:21:58.:22:02.

letter. You enter a whole new world in terms of the information

:22:03.:22:05.

gathering that these fraudsters have. The average cost is reported

:22:06.:22:14.

to be ?1000 in fraud. It can be quite a lot higher. In my

:22:15.:22:17.

constituency, I was staggered to find that the average cost is ?9,000

:22:18.:22:23.

for each event of fraud. Probably reflecting a relatively affluent

:22:24.:22:26.

population but also the older population that we just discussed.

:22:27.:22:34.

As I say, older people are disproportionate in being targets of

:22:35.:22:37.

the scammers. At the same time, we must not forget that the youngest

:22:38.:22:40.

reported victim that I had been alerted to was only 19. Can you

:22:41.:22:46.

imagine, starting out in life as an adult and one of your first

:22:47.:22:50.

experiences is to be hoodwinked by one of these despicable fraudsters.

:22:51.:22:55.

It demonstrates that nobody is old enough to handle... Nobody old

:22:56.:23:03.

enough to handle their finances cannot be complacent about the risk

:23:04.:23:07.

of fraud. Being stung is only the start of the process. Details can be

:23:08.:23:12.

sold on more than 200 times, putting them in the sights of much larger

:23:13.:23:21.

pools of criminals. An astonishing 106,000 potential victims of fraud

:23:22.:23:27.

were on come on target lists. In the language of these individuals, they

:23:28.:23:31.

call these lists sucker lists. That is what they think of people. Our

:23:32.:23:35.

investigations suggest that there are 560,000 people's names already

:23:36.:23:42.

in circulation from the UK. We must not fall into the trap of

:23:43.:23:47.

considering the financial costs. The social and human damage caused by

:23:48.:23:52.

fraud can be just as severe. Indeed, according to the phone screening

:23:53.:23:59.

service, the impact of scamming is comparable to that of violent crime.

:24:00.:24:05.

There was a major depressive episode within 20 months of the crime, for

:24:06.:24:17.

many of the victims. There is actual harm that scammers are marketing

:24:18.:24:22.

fake medicines online. It is a particular problem, operation

:24:23.:24:27.

Pangaea has been seizing these products as they come into the UK,

:24:28.:24:31.

and people need to be aware of the danger of buying from these on --

:24:32.:24:38.

these online pharmacies, they need to be buying from repeatable

:24:39.:24:43.

pharmacies in the UK, and there are logos they need to look at to make

:24:44.:24:46.

sure they are buying from a repeatable pharmacy. I thank her for

:24:47.:24:53.

that point. She would have come across this in her role on the

:24:54.:24:56.

committee, and it is not just a case of being deported money, it can cost

:24:57.:25:00.

you your life in the worst possible circumstances. As well as the

:25:01.:25:06.

depressive episodes that can follow, there is also what is called a

:25:07.:25:08.

generalised anxiety disorder which is suffered by 39% of victims, the

:25:09.:25:17.

bed to 15% of non-victims. The stress they suffer can both

:25:18.:25:21.

exacerbate pre-existing health conditions and induce post-traumatic

:25:22.:25:30.

stress. Victims may have an expert at hospital admissions within three

:25:31.:25:33.

months. The circles of these frauds, the effects on our wider society,

:25:34.:25:39.

roll outwards and outwards. More horrifyingly, people who have been

:25:40.:25:43.

defrauded our 2.5 times more likely to be in care or dead within two

:25:44.:25:48.

years of the event itself. Scammers take so much more than cash, they

:25:49.:25:54.

can rob us of our self-confidence, and elderly citizens of the ability

:25:55.:25:58.

to live independently. Of course, we should not forget that people also

:25:59.:26:06.

fight back. I have enjoyed reading stories of what I called scammed

:26:07.:26:09.

baiters, who turned the tables on this product is, wasting their time

:26:10.:26:13.

and making false of them. I particularly like one story I read

:26:14.:26:17.

on the BBC a few years ago, where one gentleman managed to persuade a

:26:18.:26:22.

Nigerian scammer 2-door themselves in bald pate to prove his dedication

:26:23.:26:28.

to a made up religion. -- in wall paint. These knock-on effect on

:26:29.:26:31.

personal independence and relationships at huge invisible

:26:32.:26:34.

costs to the headline figures of fraud.

:26:35.:26:40.

May I congratulate my honourable friend on the excellent case he is

:26:41.:26:46.

making in a very important area. From personal experience I know that

:26:47.:26:52.

some scammers concentrate on people beginning to suffer from short-term

:26:53.:26:59.

memory loss. Can he explain to what extent that is a feature of this

:27:00.:27:03.

phenomenon? And if it is a very significant feature, does it not

:27:04.:27:09.

highlight the importance that people who are beginning to lose their

:27:10.:27:14.

faculties should try it, wherever possible, to give power of attorney

:27:15.:27:22.

to reliable relatives so that they are not vulnerable to being taken

:27:23.:27:25.

advantage of in this way? Absolutely correct. And also, I think we need

:27:26.:27:32.

to see greater training of bank staff as well. I know nationwide are

:27:33.:27:37.

very good. They will spot signs of an individual being defrauded. I can

:27:38.:27:43.

remember one case told to me by a grandmother about a lady on her

:27:44.:27:47.

estate who went to the local nationwide and was trying to

:27:48.:27:50.

withdraw several thousand pounds with two burly men beside her. It

:27:51.:27:55.

was to do with fake repairs, as usual. Nationwide must be commended

:27:56.:28:01.

for stopping that from happening. I the post office is like that as

:28:02.:28:06.

well. The honourable gentleman is quite right to make that link in

:28:07.:28:11.

terms of the fact that because of longevity instances, there are

:28:12.:28:26.

increasing instances of... Overall these knock-on effects on personal

:28:27.:28:30.

dependence and relationship have had huge costs to the headline figures

:28:31.:28:34.

mentioned before, both by increasing demand for state support and simply,

:28:35.:28:39.

in terms of human misery. One of the reasons fraud is so difficult to

:28:40.:28:43.

tackle is that it can take so many different forms. Con artists are

:28:44.:28:47.

adept at exploiting people's unfamiliarity with the technical

:28:48.:28:50.

aspect of a product or service in order to trick them. And they are

:28:51.:28:56.

quick to exploit the latest news story or government initiative.

:28:57.:29:00.

Sometimes this is simply an effort to exploit our generosity after a

:29:01.:29:04.

national disaster, by posing as somebody in need of disaster relief.

:29:05.:29:08.

E-mails suddenly coming from disaster zones and asking for help

:29:09.:29:13.

is a common trick fraudsters. I haven't several constituents visit

:29:14.:29:18.

my surgeries, and I'm sure other honourable members have as well, to

:29:19.:29:22.

complain to me that insurers would allow them to take money out of

:29:23.:29:28.

their funds to invest in a regular investments, allowing people to sell

:29:29.:29:32.

them worthless stocks. I have had to be very clear to these individuals

:29:33.:29:37.

that their insurers are perfectly right and they should never put

:29:38.:29:40.

their pension at risk. I encourage other members of this House to

:29:41.:29:44.

remain vigilant if they hear stories themselves. This pensions unlocking,

:29:45.:29:50.

as it is called, is just one way that con artists are trying to

:29:51.:29:55.

exploit the government's new, more liberal pensions system. I fully

:29:56.:29:58.

support the government in its desire to give more power to individual

:29:59.:30:03.

savers. But cases like these highlight how important it is to

:30:04.:30:05.

have antifraud protection is developed alongside policies rather

:30:06.:30:11.

than afterwards. And this also applies to our regulators as well.

:30:12.:30:16.

Impersonating banks is another very common form of financial fraud. As

:30:17.:30:25.

my honourable friend, -- as my honourable friend discovered,

:30:26.:30:32.

scammers are scanning individually for passwords and pin numbers,

:30:33.:30:36.

security systems become more complex. FFA UK reported that in

:30:37.:30:46.

2015 losses to financial fraud totalled 755 million. That is only

:30:47.:30:49.

what it is reported. Worryingly, this represented a 26% increase on

:30:50.:30:58.

2014, despite card Company security systems intercepting and preventing

:30:59.:31:05.

1.76 billion of fraud. Our ?7 in every ?10 of potential losses. Fraud

:31:06.:31:09.

is also flourishing on the Internet. According to consumer group Which?

:31:10.:31:14.

More than 5 million scams work carried out online last year. An

:31:15.:31:19.

astonishing 9 billion was lost to fraudsters. They also report that

:31:20.:31:22.

six out of ten of us report being targeted by online scammers up to

:31:23.:31:30.

May this year. I am being forever asked to wire money to parts of the

:31:31.:31:37.

world. The most common types of fraud are fishing e-mails. They

:31:38.:31:40.

usually pretend to be from a bank or a senior official. Seeking money and

:31:41.:31:47.

bogus computer support. Yet alongside this cutting-edge macro

:31:48.:31:50.

crime, the more traditional forms of fraud flourished as well. For

:31:51.:31:55.

straight men, tricking people into paying extortionate amounts were

:31:56.:32:05.

unnecessary work. Their cover for burglary as well. I want to read a

:32:06.:32:18.

case in question. It involved a 78 Dirrell pensioner from Lincolnshire

:32:19.:32:20.

who lived alone and was isolated from family. -- 78-year-old. He was

:32:21.:32:27.

conned out of his house by conmen who convinced him major repair work

:32:28.:32:32.

was needed on his property. After being cold cold and visited, he

:32:33.:32:35.

agreed to will part of his property in return for the work being carried

:32:36.:32:42.

out. However, the documents he signed actually gave the house to

:32:43.:32:46.

the scammers, who then placed him in a caravan park. It was only the

:32:47.:32:51.

victim's testimony in court that guaranteed there was a conviction.

:32:52.:32:55.

The others involved have no doubt there were other, silent victims who

:32:56.:33:04.

have lost homes in this way. The huge financial and human cost of

:33:05.:33:07.

fraud make the case for action clear. But the problem could be more

:33:08.:33:12.

serious than we realise. The chartered Trading Standards

:33:13.:33:15.

Institute believe only 5% of scammers are ever reported. Fear and

:33:16.:33:22.

shame keeps victims silent. There are already some very strong efforts

:33:23.:33:27.

in this area, in addition to preventative measures by banks and

:33:28.:33:31.

card companies. Trading Standards has been collaborating with

:33:32.:33:34.

charities and the police to offer better protection to victims. For

:33:35.:33:39.

example, there has been a concerted effort to provide previous victims

:33:40.:33:44.

and those whose age helps make them likely to be victimised, with call

:33:45.:33:48.

blockers. These have so far protected 1600 vulnerable people and

:33:49.:33:59.

blocked 98% of nuisance calls. Based on the overall statistics, they

:34:00.:34:03.

estimate that more than 11,500 scammers that would have been

:34:04.:34:06.

carried out have been stopped. -- scammers. Expanding Trading

:34:07.:34:12.

Standards would make these efforts more effective. More needs to be

:34:13.:34:18.

done. Especially when the resale of personal information makes people so

:34:19.:34:21.

vulnerable to crimes such as identity theft.

:34:22.:34:33.

-- legal harvest Inc of personal data can put... It can be done by

:34:34.:34:45.

clicking a box or a newsletter are signing up to something, and your

:34:46.:34:48.

information going to the. I do not believe people know what they are

:34:49.:34:51.

signing up to and they do not have the transparency. What happens is

:34:52.:34:58.

that maybe the first few purchases -- purchasers of that information

:34:59.:35:00.

may be one of fighting. But further down this gave you wind holding

:35:01.:35:06.

companies buying this information to act for fraudsters as a front.

:35:07.:35:12.

Despite the fact that 85% of people, a huge majority, thinks that

:35:13.:35:17.

business has an equal or greater responsibility to protect consumers

:35:18.:35:22.

from fraud, the cyber security survey found that only 5% of firms,

:35:23.:35:30.

just 5%, invested on monitoring hacks of their system, despite more

:35:31.:35:34.

than six in ten reporting breaches. I know from personal experience that

:35:35.:35:39.

some banks of a long way to go in the run security arrangements.

:35:40.:35:41.

Currently -- very recently HSBC asked my wife for some sensitive

:35:42.:35:47.

information to be sent to a private e-mail address. This was legitimate.

:35:48.:35:53.

It was bone fide. But what on earth is a bank doing allowing private and

:35:54.:35:56.

sensitive information to go outside its own network? Some firms reported

:35:57.:36:02.

to me the astonishing claim that some of our current systems work

:36:03.:36:04.

against responsible corporate behaviour. A partner in a financial

:36:05.:36:12.

consultancy firm wrote to me to explain that the financial ombudsman

:36:13.:36:16.

service is holding his firm accountable for losses incurred by

:36:17.:36:18.

some very risky and frankly quite murky sounding investments. His firm

:36:19.:36:25.

clearly warned their clients away from it. In fact, one adjudicator at

:36:26.:36:32.

the ombudsman service said the firm should have refused to advise the

:36:33.:36:37.

people involved. Alchemy have a system that makes it harder for

:36:38.:36:40.

people to engage in potentially problematic and risky investments?

:36:41.:36:48.

-- how can we have a system? It is essential our regulators are

:36:49.:36:55.

focused. Dodgy schemes blur the line to a legitimate business. Do not

:36:56.:37:01.

unfairly penalise those trying to help. Another area where the

:37:02.:37:04.

government can make a real differences by stress testing

:37:05.:37:07.

policies and building antifraud protections into them as they are

:37:08.:37:10.

developed, rather than waiting until afterwards. I know there have been

:37:11.:37:16.

some strides made in the Cabinet office in terms of sharing

:37:17.:37:18.

information across government to track down fraudsters, for example,

:37:19.:37:23.

over benefits and other such financial positions.

:37:24.:37:31.

I congratulate the honourable member on an excellent speech. Can I

:37:32.:37:33.

underline very strongly the point he made earlier about government

:37:34.:37:42.

schemes? The honourable member referred to pensions. In South Wales

:37:43.:37:46.

particularly in recent years they have been targeted by Green Deal

:37:47.:37:51.

scams. I agree wholeheartedly that it is important government building

:37:52.:37:53.

safeguards in developing policies to avoid people being scammed off the

:37:54.:37:57.

back of a legitimate government scheme. Very good point. I can

:37:58.:38:05.

remember when tax credits were launched and the fraud that took

:38:06.:38:08.

place them in that respect. It does seem to be that they cotton on

:38:09.:38:14.

incredibly quickly, the fraudsters, to what is going on, and they see

:38:15.:38:18.

the opportunities. They seem incredibly flexible. They are very

:38:19.:38:25.

quick to move on to any new opportunity. It can cost the

:38:26.:38:27.

government hundreds of millions of pounds, for example, by exploiting

:38:28.:38:31.

the Green Deal. The tax credit proved vulnerable to such a point

:38:32.:38:39.

that the online portal set up to claim was still there ten years

:38:40.:38:42.

later. Much of the advice on offer, despite the best of intentions, is

:38:43.:38:45.

too cautious and contains too much room for doubt. There is too much

:38:46.:38:51.

reliance on caveat emptor. It would be better to lay out some clearer

:38:52.:38:56.

rules. If a tradesman knocks on your daughters say that need surprise

:38:57.:39:03.

repairs, just say no. Thank him or her, and if you're worried, call a

:39:04.:39:08.

reputable professional yourself. If someone tries to convince you that

:39:09.:39:13.

you have won a lottery you did not enter, just say no. This never

:39:14.:39:17.

happens, ever. We cannot be clear enough on this point. If someone

:39:18.:39:20.

tries to persuade you to make a risky investment with your pension,

:39:21.:39:24.

just say no. That precious investment has to look after you in

:39:25.:39:28.

your old age. If you want to invest, it always takes time to seek proper

:39:29.:39:38.

independent financial advice. Is he worried, in the same way that

:39:39.:39:41.

I am, with the number of people who do respond? The moment people of --

:39:42.:39:50.

respond to one, I had a case of someone getting between ten and 20 a

:39:51.:39:53.

day. These are coming from abroad, which means they cannot be

:39:54.:39:57.

intercepted. This is causing a lot of heartache to vulnerable people.

:39:58.:40:06.

Before the honourable gentleman response to the intervention, I

:40:07.:40:08.

appreciate he's making some extremely important points and the

:40:09.:40:12.

House is attentive, but he will appreciate there are a great many

:40:13.:40:15.

people who want to speak this afternoon not only in this debate

:40:16.:40:19.

but in the next one, and I am sure he will conclude very soon.

:40:20.:40:24.

I am actually on my last paragraph in that respect. Thank you for

:40:25.:40:29.

reminding me. As I say, yes, the honourable gentleman is absolutely

:40:30.:40:32.

correct in that respect. The Post Office doors, if you are alerted to

:40:33.:40:35.

this particular situation, they will stop mail and set up a scam mailbox

:40:36.:40:41.

for you in that regard, which is a good initiative. But we need to say

:40:42.:40:45.

more about this. In conclusion, Madame Deputy Speaker, fraud is a

:40:46.:40:50.

detestable sort of crime that preys on our worst fears and best

:40:51.:40:54.

instincts. I hope that together, with the police and other

:40:55.:40:57.

organisations and across government, we can start to stamp it out.

:40:58.:41:02.

The question is as on the order paper. Before I call the co-sponsor

:41:03.:41:10.

of the motion, as I just said, a great many people wish to speak on

:41:11.:41:15.

this debate, and the next one this afternoon. I have to impose a time

:41:16.:41:18.

limit on backbench speeches of five minutes. That doesn't apply to the

:41:19.:41:25.

next speaker, who is deemed to be the spokesman for her party,

:41:26.:41:32.

Patricia Gibson. I'm delighted to co-sponsor this motion today. It is

:41:33.:41:38.

important to the member of Solihull, with whom I have sparred in the

:41:39.:41:42.

past, but who I am in agreement with today. The cost of scamming on our

:41:43.:41:48.

society is huge and this cost cannot be counted in terms of pounds and

:41:49.:41:52.

pence, although the financial cost is significant. Scamming does not

:41:53.:41:58.

exclusively but disproportionately affects the elderly and honourable

:41:59.:42:01.

men is about amenities, and this is becoming greater with each passing

:42:02.:42:06.

day. The Office for National Statistics predicts the number of

:42:07.:42:09.

elderly people living in our communities will increase by 34%

:42:10.:42:16.

from 11.6 million to 15.7 million by 2030. Those living with dementia

:42:17.:42:24.

will increase from 850,000 to 2.1 million people by 2030. The people

:42:25.:42:31.

who perpetrate these schemes use a sophisticated techniques to

:42:32.:42:35.

repeatedly scammed their victims, whilst Trading Standards, hard

:42:36.:42:40.

pressed as they are, are working on the front line to do all they can to

:42:41.:42:47.

safeguard them honourable. The most sinister, the most cynical and cruel

:42:48.:42:52.

aspect of scamming is that it is criminal activity that targets those

:42:53.:42:55.

who are the most about trouble in their very own home. The one place

:42:56.:43:01.

where any of us should feel most safe becomes the setting for conning

:43:02.:43:09.

people out of their money by sales scripts, data collection and

:43:10.:43:12.

targeted mail. Scams can range from pension fraud, bogus equity release

:43:13.:43:18.

schemes, fictitious prize draws, false investment opportunities,

:43:19.:43:22.

upfront payments to release lottery wins, upfront payments for building

:43:23.:43:26.

work that is either never started or never completed, or investment scams

:43:27.:43:33.

and so on. The most common telephone scams are called false -- cold

:43:34.:43:52.

calls. I have something that I will discuss the creek, but I'm excited

:43:53.:43:56.

about it. Scamming has been shown to have an impact on physical

:43:57.:44:02.

well-being. At worst, the impact of scams can ruin lives, split

:44:03.:44:06.

families, with the consequences lasting long beyond the initial

:44:07.:44:13.

trauma of financial loss. Even though financial losses are

:44:14.:44:16.

comparatively low, scams still lead to a breakdown in consumer

:44:17.:44:20.

confidence. The full effects of the harm caused by scams is really

:44:21.:44:25.

difficult to estimate as only around 5% of victims report they have lost

:44:26.:44:29.

money. We know the average victim loses around ?1000, but we also know

:44:30.:44:35.

that many loose hundreds of thousands of pounds. We know that

:44:36.:44:40.

victims of scams often feel very embarrassed and afraid that their

:44:41.:44:43.

families will judge them as no longer able to live on their own,

:44:44.:44:47.

which can also lead to scams not being reported, and thereby leaving

:44:48.:44:55.

Victim Support and and vulnerable to repeat scams. -- leaving victims

:44:56.:45:04.

open. People find it difficult to admit they have been a victim of a

:45:05.:45:07.

crime. Let us not forget the impact of dementia and other impairments,

:45:08.:45:13.

which makes it vulnerability more pronounced and the ability to

:45:14.:45:17.

repeatedly target an individual much more possible. As the honourable

:45:18.:45:23.

gentleman from Solihull pointed out, it has been demonstrated that

:45:24.:45:26.

victims of scams are nearly 2.5 times more likely to require

:45:27.:45:31.

increased care provision, or be dead, within the two years

:45:32.:45:35.

subsequent to being a victim of scamming. It is reported that scam

:45:36.:45:40.

victims often experience a rapid drop in physical health after the

:45:41.:45:43.

realisation that they have been scammed. The scale of the problem

:45:44.:45:49.

and its associated costs are absolutely huge. Alongside this

:45:50.:45:54.

growing problem, we all know that Trading Standards are struggling to

:45:55.:45:58.

cope, although the work they do is worthy of very high praise and

:45:59.:46:05.

demands our respect. I also want to highlight the excellent work carried

:46:06.:46:13.

out by an organisation called CIFAS, which shares confirmed fraud data,

:46:14.:46:17.

and they prevented more than 1 billion in fraud loss by sharing

:46:18.:46:23.

data across sectors. In my own constituency of North Ayrshire and

:46:24.:46:31.

Aaron, it showed that 270 frauds took place. But we know that this is

:46:32.:46:38.

a mere snapshot of the true level of fraud, which is likely to be much,

:46:39.:46:45.

much higher. At this stage, I also want to single out for particular

:46:46.:46:52.

praise murmurs of my constituency who carried out a range of activity

:46:53.:47:01.

to provide awareness of scamming amongst clients, working in

:47:02.:47:03.

partnership with local community groups, the third sector, police

:47:04.:47:14.

Scotland and others. Kenneth Gibson, MSP, why mention in the interest of

:47:15.:47:22.

domestic harmony, was involved as well. Scams do so much more than rob

:47:23.:47:27.

people of their money. It robs them of their confidence, their belief in

:47:28.:47:30.

themselves, their own judgment, their self-esteem, their wedding

:47:31.:47:36.

this to trust people, -- their willingness to trust people. It also

:47:37.:47:43.

robs them of their ability to live full, happy and independent lives.

:47:44.:47:46.

What makes all of us vulnerable to scams is shown by research carried

:47:47.:47:54.

out by Which. All of us are confident about our ability to spot

:47:55.:48:00.

fake scam -- spot a scam, which begs us more vulnerable. The gap between

:48:01.:48:04.

confidence and ability is dangerous. So what can we do about this

:48:05.:48:09.

problem? I absolutely agree with the suggestion put forward by trading

:48:10.:48:13.

standards that financial institution should recognise that consumers,

:48:14.:48:20.

clients with dementia are by definition more at risk of being

:48:21.:48:24.

scammed, and measures need to be taken to protect this group as a

:48:25.:48:28.

duty of care. Those who are diagnosed with dementia live with

:48:29.:48:33.

the cognitive impairment, and this must be recognised. The sharing of

:48:34.:48:38.

personal details and information to other organisations should require a

:48:39.:48:42.

clear opt in as opposed to an opt out. It should also be the case that

:48:43.:48:48.

the normal evil position of charities and other organisations

:48:49.:48:51.

should be that personal details are not passed on or shared, except to

:48:52.:48:59.

report a safeguarding concern when there is a suspicion that a person

:49:00.:49:03.

may be at risk or harm of scamming. In addition, customers should be

:49:04.:49:07.

able to formally notify their bank in writing, stating that they feel

:49:08.:49:13.

at risk, and request that all transactions over a certain amount

:49:14.:49:18.

have a 24 hour delay before being processed. This will allow time for

:49:19.:49:24.

the transaction to be challenged and potentially stopped. These sensible

:49:25.:49:32.

and fairly straightforward measures would do much to protect those most

:49:33.:49:36.

at risk of scamming. The elderly and the vulnerable in our communities. I

:49:37.:49:41.

urge the Minister to reflect on these proposals to help us tackle

:49:42.:49:48.

these problems to help us tackle the problem which confronts people who

:49:49.:49:54.

are robbed in their very own homes. Subsequently, they find the

:49:55.:50:01.

experience scarring. The effects are far reaching indeed. Let's do more

:50:02.:50:06.

to protect the victims of scams, it is the least we can do. Minister.

:50:07.:50:12.

Thank you very much indeed. I wholeheartedly congratulate the

:50:13.:50:15.

honourable members for North Ayrshire and for Solihull for

:50:16.:50:19.

securing this really important debate. I know they have a

:50:20.:50:23.

long-standing interest in tackling scamming, especially when honourable

:50:24.:50:30.

individuals are the victims. They have set out the wide rage of harm

:50:31.:50:36.

-- range of harm that scammers can cause. I would like to assure the

:50:37.:50:40.

House that tackling scams is a priority for this government. Scams

:50:41.:50:44.

can have a devastating impact, particularly on the most moral

:50:45.:50:50.

people -- most vulnerable people in society. It can affect us any time.

:50:51.:50:56.

We are more likely to be a victim of fraud than any other crime. When

:50:57.:51:00.

caught out, we can sometimes feel ashamed, not want to admit that we

:51:01.:51:05.

been hoodwinked. This can make it hard to get a full sense of the

:51:06.:51:09.

problem. It is really important that we do all we can to understand it

:51:10.:51:14.

and respond, which is why I welcome this debate today. We know that

:51:15.:51:20.

older people are more at risk. The National Trading Standards scams

:51:21.:51:24.

team says the typical person may provide support to is 74 years old

:51:25.:51:31.

and living alone. This is why I welcome the work of Bournemouth

:51:32.:51:38.

University and the chartered standards Institute to investigate

:51:39.:51:41.

the impact of scams on older people. Their report on financial scamming

:51:42.:51:45.

earlier this year set out clear recommendations for action by

:51:46.:51:50.

government, charities, private institutions and banks. Much of this

:51:51.:51:58.

debate is focusing on the recommendations, and I will address

:51:59.:52:01.

those directly. For the first recommendation, it was that all

:52:02.:52:06.

agencies, including banks, should recognise the duty of care to those

:52:07.:52:10.

with dementia. And to take measures to protect them. Second was to

:52:11.:52:15.

strengthen rules around data protection, to reduce the risk of

:52:16.:52:22.

vulnerable people ending up on suckers lists, and which are used by

:52:23.:52:29.

scammers to target their scams, and thirdly to introduce safeguards at

:52:30.:52:31.

banks and building societies to prevent those who fear they are at

:52:32.:52:41.

risk from becoming victims. I thank for the interest she is taking

:52:42.:52:44.

interest in this. I know from personal experience that is

:52:45.:52:47.

difficult to get a bank to take action unless somebody already has

:52:48.:52:53.

given power of attorney, as I said in my earlier intervention, and when

:52:54.:52:58.

this happened to someone close to me and I told the bank concerned that I

:52:59.:53:04.

needed to be tipped off if there was any unusual withdraws, nothing

:53:05.:53:11.

really happened until a particular alert cashier, on her own

:53:12.:53:14.

initiative, did that. After five years, I eventually got the

:53:15.:53:20.

fraudster to repay all the money and pay the costs of the case. Could she

:53:21.:53:24.

do everything possible to persuade the banks that, even if the power of

:53:25.:53:30.

attorney is not in place, if a worried close relative asks them to

:53:31.:53:37.

monitor regular withdrawals or unusual transactions, that they have

:53:38.:53:43.

procedures in place to do that? -- in regular withdrawals.

:53:44.:53:47.

It affects the point that our honourable friend from Solihull made

:53:48.:53:53.

that some banks have good procedures in place, and some don't. Some staff

:53:54.:53:59.

have been well trained and some haven't. We need to ensure that

:54:00.:54:03.

every person working in the bank is as good as those who are identified

:54:04.:54:12.

by the Nationwide, as mentioned by the member from Solihull. I will

:54:13.:54:17.

come to the point about what they can do to protect their customers. I

:54:18.:54:21.

am pleased to report to the House that the Government, regulators and

:54:22.:54:25.

private companies are responding strongly to the recommendations that

:54:26.:54:31.

I have outlined. First of all, the Government has taken action more

:54:32.:54:34.

widely on the issue of nuisance calls, including a new requirement

:54:35.:54:39.

for all direct marketing callers to provide caller line identification.

:54:40.:54:45.

This came into effect on the sick thing to me. The major increases

:54:46.:54:50.

consumer choice, making it easier for people to identify direct

:54:51.:54:57.

marketing calls and choose whether to accept them or not. It also

:54:58.:55:03.

increases the ability to investigate such calls. The governor also plans

:55:04.:55:10.

to bring forward a digital economy Bill. It will introduce a measure,

:55:11.:55:25.

making it requirement to introduce a statutory... Will she address the

:55:26.:55:31.

fines that are meted out when people breach the rules. There was a case

:55:32.:55:37.

of a pharmacy which sold on, disgracefully, the details of more

:55:38.:55:39.

than 20,000 of its customers, many of them vulnerable to other

:55:40.:55:49.

marketing companies. A fine of ?130,000 is derisory and no

:55:50.:55:53.

meaningful deterrent. As always, she makes a powerful point. I'm sure as

:55:54.:56:00.

those who are as possible for drafting these issues is aware of

:56:01.:56:14.

that, but also we need to make sure there is sufficient deterrent from

:56:15.:56:17.

undertaking these crimes in the first place by the regime of

:56:18.:56:19.

punishments that put place, including fines. Overall, the code

:56:20.:56:27.

of practice will wholeheartedly be behind the reduction in the number

:56:28.:56:33.

of direct marketing course, and to make it much easier for the

:56:34.:56:36.

information Commissioner is to take action against organisations in

:56:37.:56:38.

breach of those rules. The Trading Standards scams team are

:56:39.:56:50.

working with the British banking Association, the building society

:56:51.:56:55.

associations and others to produce a new banking protocol for doorstep

:56:56.:57:00.

crime and other scam issues discovered that branch level. The

:57:01.:57:02.

Financial Conduct Authority is building on this. Their ageing

:57:03.:57:08.

population strategy will consider how older consumers engage in

:57:09.:57:10.

financial services and make best use of the products and services they

:57:11.:57:16.

use. The Financial Conduct Authority intends to release regulatory

:57:17.:57:18.

strategy and recommendations by 2017.

:57:19.:57:24.

I am grateful to the minister forgiving way. She mentions Trading

:57:25.:57:28.

Standards. Can I advise her to praise the work of Dorset and Poole

:57:29.:57:34.

Trading Standards, who can only do their work of the victims come

:57:35.:57:38.

forward. That is the only way successful prosecutions can be

:57:39.:57:42.

secured. Can I invite her to continue with her work with Trading

:57:43.:57:45.

Standards in highlighting the important work they do. My right

:57:46.:57:51.

honourable friend raises an important point about Trading

:57:52.:57:54.

Standards. My own team in Cornwall do an excellent job. I should point

:57:55.:57:59.

out that in addition to the vital work they do in all of our

:58:00.:58:02.

communities, they are supported by national bodies, one in Scotland and

:58:03.:58:09.

one for England and Wales. A lot of these activities related to

:58:10.:58:12.

organised and serious crime. These national bodies to make money

:58:13.:58:17.

available to support where we have seen particular instances of

:58:18.:58:21.

scamming in the community. That national and local working is a

:58:22.:58:26.

really good model. Following on from scandals that we saw in 2015 that

:58:27.:58:30.

highlighted on charitable fundraising practices, a new

:58:31.:58:35.

fundraising regulator has been established, chaired by Lord grade

:58:36.:58:40.

of Yarmouth. This independent regulator is tasked to set high

:58:41.:58:44.

standards of fundraising practices and to deal with public complaints

:58:45.:58:50.

when they have been breached. It has a range of sanctions and can refer

:58:51.:58:53.

serious noncompliance or abuse to the regular treat -- to the

:58:54.:58:57.

regulator. The scams team have also been working with the Royal Mail and

:58:58.:59:03.

other postal operators, training over 2000 postmen and women to spot

:59:04.:59:09.

scam letters. Already more than 700 vulnerable households have been

:59:10.:59:13.

identified and are getting support. Even more importantly, contracts to

:59:14.:59:18.

carry the mail are being cancelled. Stopping the letters from getting

:59:19.:59:21.

into the intended victims in the first place. So enforcement is

:59:22.:59:26.

important in tackling this crime. This is why the Home Office launched

:59:27.:59:31.

a joint fraud task force in February of this year. The task force

:59:32.:59:37.

includes amongst others the City of London police, the national crime is

:59:38.:59:42.

the, financial fraud action UK, Bank of England, national Trading

:59:43.:59:49.

Standards and Age UK. The task force is a ready good example of the

:59:50.:59:54.

approach we are taking to crime prevention. This is very much the

:59:55.:59:57.

focus of the modern crime prevention strategy. It was published in March

:59:58.:00:02.

this year. Its key themes about working together to understand the

:00:03.:00:08.

drivers of crime, why and how they create -- committed, and working

:00:09.:00:11.

together to stay one step ahead of the criminals to prevent more crime

:00:12.:00:16.

happening in the future. The work of the task force oversight board is an

:00:17.:00:18.

excellent example of such collaboration. It brings government,

:00:19.:00:24.

law enforcement and industry together in a focused way to develop

:00:25.:00:27.

a cure and common understanding about the changing nature and how we

:00:28.:00:35.

can take action against it. In its first few months alone, the task

:00:36.:00:40.

force has demonstrated it is working effectively. Improved data sharing

:00:41.:00:43.

has let banks to close hundreds of accounts linked to fraud. Bank

:00:44.:00:48.

branches in London alongside the Met and Trading Standards are

:00:49.:00:52.

introducing a new fraud intervention scheme. And prolific fraudsters have

:00:53.:00:57.

been arrested since the launch of a new campaign in July. So I can

:00:58.:01:02.

assure honourable members that the government regards tackling scamming

:01:03.:01:06.

as a priority. And we will continue to work with national and local

:01:07.:01:10.

partners to address the issues raised today, and to do everything

:01:11.:01:15.

we can to prevent the horrendous consequences of the scams we have

:01:16.:01:20.

heard about today. And to enable far more of the good work that we have

:01:21.:01:25.

seen. Irony want to highlight one extremely good example I came across

:01:26.:01:28.

from Trading Standards in Scotland. They funded and coordinated a

:01:29.:01:34.

project which saw the installation of more than 200 blocking devices in

:01:35.:01:40.

vulnerable consumers homes. These devices blocked 90% of nuisance

:01:41.:01:50.

calls. The impact the preventing scam cannot be underestimated.

:01:51.:01:55.

Trading Standards Scotland estimate the resultant savings to individuals

:01:56.:01:58.

and the public purse is between ?3000 and ?7,000 per call blocker.

:01:59.:02:04.

But really what we're here to do today is to think about the effect

:02:05.:02:08.

on people. And I want to read out to you a quote from one of the

:02:09.:02:11.

beneficiaries of this scheme, which really illustrates its treat human

:02:12.:02:18.

value. She says, I have my life back. I am nearly 70. And I think,

:02:19.:02:24.

how did I let people like this get to meet? My son is ill and cannot

:02:25.:02:28.

protect me. I have had to get police protection in the past four nuisance

:02:29.:02:33.

calls. Now I can protect myself. It is marvellous. I feel in control. We

:02:34.:02:39.

can sit and have a cup of tea without being disturbed. Even the

:02:40.:02:44.

dog macro is less stressed. So to conclude, I would like to repeat my

:02:45.:02:48.

thanks to the honourable members for North Ayrshire and Arran, and for

:02:49.:02:52.

Soliola, for securing this really important debate. -- Solihull. I

:02:53.:02:59.

will be listening to the contributions of all members today.

:03:00.:03:02.

And I can assure all members here of our utter determination to tackle

:03:03.:03:12.

this dreadful criminal activity. Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I

:03:13.:03:18.

would like to congratulate and thank the honourable members for securing

:03:19.:03:22.

this debate. On a subject that I must confess I did not know nearly

:03:23.:03:27.

enough about. But I do know now that my own constituency is affected by

:03:28.:03:30.

scams in the same way many other members are. One of the local police

:03:31.:03:35.

divisions informs me that the main type of scam taking place is one

:03:36.:03:39.

referred to earlier where crooks preferred -- pretends to be from the

:03:40.:03:44.

bank and they state that unusual activity is happening on the

:03:45.:03:49.

victim's account. Information is requested and a safe count,

:03:50.:03:52.

so-called, set up. The victim is asked to transfer the money into

:03:53.:03:55.

that account. That is almost the opposite of safe. Another officer

:03:56.:04:01.

informs me that we are talking about large sums of money being taken with

:04:02.:04:05.

an equally large impact on the victim. It seems a lot of

:04:06.:04:10.

productivity goes unreported as persons feel ashamed at being caught

:04:11.:04:17.

out by such scams. This is the picture all across the country, with

:04:18.:04:21.

the average victim 74 years old, the average lost ?1000, but with many

:04:22.:04:26.

moved -- losing more. Yet only 5% of victims report having been scammed

:04:27.:04:30.

to the authorities. I have been astonished to learn about the scale

:04:31.:04:34.

of the problem, the number of people losing out, the financial losses

:04:35.:04:38.

resulting, the range of industries are affected, the different types of

:04:39.:04:46.

scam and technologies. The only thing less of a surprise is the

:04:47.:04:54.

personal distress and misery caused. I was horrified to read that the

:04:55.:04:57.

victims of mass marketing type fraud, in particular, are also --

:04:58.:05:03.

often placed on the so-called suckers list. Anything that can be

:05:04.:05:09.

done to clamp down on that practice must be done. It is all rather

:05:10.:05:13.

depressing reading. How do we go about the task of preventing and

:05:14.:05:19.

bringing scam perpetrators to justice? We all have a

:05:20.:05:21.

responsibility in raising awareness by highlighting scams are fraud by

:05:22.:05:29.

supporting scorpion and backing campaigns such as scam awareness

:05:30.:05:33.

month and the scams information leaflet from Age UK. I confess that

:05:34.:05:43.

action fraud evaded me until a few months ago. I will make sure many of

:05:44.:05:53.

my constituents know about it. Things are easy to forget under

:05:54.:05:56.

pressure particular leaf of vulnerable people. If it is too good

:05:57.:06:01.

to be true, it definitely is. Especially if it is a cold call.

:06:02.:06:07.

Take expert advice. Your local citizens Advice Bureau is happy to

:06:08.:06:10.

help. Do not be scared to doubt someone's honesty if they are asking

:06:11.:06:15.

you to part with cash. It is difficult for a lot of people to do.

:06:16.:06:21.

I appreciate that he is taking this information as well from Citizens

:06:22.:06:29.

Advice. A lot of time has been used already. I am very concerned. We

:06:30.:06:33.

have an oversubscribed debate next. We are going to use more time. So

:06:34.:06:41.

please come if we can try to contract. I think you are going to

:06:42.:06:45.

come back with two minutes in the end.

:06:46.:06:51.

Maybe not! Carry on. The point I was making is we should encourage people

:06:52.:06:54.

not to be scared about dating a person's honesty when they are

:06:55.:06:57.

asking them to part with cash. Unfortunately, that is something

:06:58.:07:02.

some vulnerable people are scared to do. Of course, that is exactly what

:07:03.:07:07.

makes them vulnerable. We have to encourage them to see there is no

:07:08.:07:10.

downside to that. Honest people will not be upset by being challenged in

:07:11.:07:15.

that way. We must also encourage people to report not only might that

:07:16.:07:19.

help see justice done and perhaps even some redress, but it also helps

:07:20.:07:24.

with other people falling victim, too. This can only take this so far

:07:25.:07:32.

when scams are increasing all the time. It cannot be relied upon to

:07:33.:07:39.

protect significant numbers of people in crucial moments when they

:07:40.:07:42.

are being handed for their cash. So going beyond a rate -- awareness

:07:43.:07:49.

raising, the proposals by the chartered Trading Standards

:07:50.:07:51.

Institute and Bournemouth University, and other suggestions

:07:52.:07:55.

today, provide important pointers of the steps that can be taken. My

:07:56.:07:59.

honourable friend highlighted this and it does seem an attractive

:08:00.:08:04.

proposition, the idea of an opt in procedure so that any significant

:08:05.:08:10.

transactions from an account held by a vulnerable person, there is a

:08:11.:08:16.

24-hour stop put on that while they nominated representative is

:08:17.:08:19.

contacted to provide an opportunity to challenge that transaction. It

:08:20.:08:24.

really should be close to impossible for a vulnerable person to transfer

:08:25.:08:28.

their entire contents of their bank account to somebody else without

:08:29.:08:33.

major questions being asked. We also need to think carefully about

:08:34.:08:37.

increasing resources, invest in tackling this problem. Not only

:08:38.:08:40.

public money but time and money invested by companies protecting

:08:41.:08:43.

their most vulnerable customers and clients. I will be happy to sign up

:08:44.:08:49.

to become a scam ambassador. I know that many other honourable members

:08:50.:08:55.

will do so as well. The fightback against these wicked and callous

:08:56.:08:58.

fraudsters deserves all the support it can get.

:08:59.:09:04.

Thank you, Deputy Speaker. I would like to thank my honourable friend

:09:05.:09:07.

for bringing this important debate to the floor of the House. I'm going

:09:08.:09:14.

to focus on scams targeted at the elderly. As chair of the All Party

:09:15.:09:17.

Parliamentary Group on Iran and older people, I hosted the first

:09:18.:09:22.

debate of a commission which offered a listening exercise for older

:09:23.:09:32.

people. It asked them about their concerns and what they feared most

:09:33.:09:36.

about staying safe. Their concerns around scamming more profound. Based

:09:37.:09:41.

on projections from national data, the commission estimated that could

:09:42.:09:48.

be as many as 13,000 cases in Sussex alone in any year. For example, the

:09:49.:09:55.

commission heard that one man's elderly brother was dying of cancer

:09:56.:10:01.

and quite frail. He was persuaded to pay ?2000 for a roof and damp

:10:02.:10:08.

repairs. A couple aged 85 and 86 were scammed out of ?8,000 through a

:10:09.:10:12.

postal scam and their daughter lost money in the process of trying to

:10:13.:10:17.

recover the funds. Another woman was charged ?450 for minor building

:10:18.:10:22.

repairs that were subsequently valued at ?30. Scams targeted at

:10:23.:10:27.

elderly people, purposefully target vulnerable people. The perpetrators

:10:28.:10:30.

see people who are more trusting and less inquisitive. They may be less

:10:31.:10:35.

mobile and easily cornered. Perhaps they are lonely and isolated and

:10:36.:10:37.

therefore welcoming of contact for minor building repairs that were

:10:38.:10:39.

subsequently valued at ?30. Scams targeted at elderly people,

:10:40.:10:41.

purposefully target vulnerable people. The perpetrators see people

:10:42.:10:43.

who are more trusting and less inquisitive. They may be less mobile

:10:44.:10:45.

and easily cornered. Perhaps they are lonely and isolated and

:10:46.:10:47.

therefore welcoming of contact from other people. They may be more keen

:10:48.:10:50.

to make sure that someone leaves them alone and therefore more

:10:51.:10:52.

willing to pay a price in order to get rid of them, just because it is

:10:53.:10:55.

easier. And also, as we have heard earlier, if you are an older person,

:10:56.:10:58.

you might not have all your faculties. You might not be aware of

:10:59.:11:01.

what is going on. Or that you are a victim of scamming. The scammers

:11:02.:11:03.

prey on these characteristics, particularly the vulnerability and

:11:04.:11:05.

isolation of older people, even worse, they can pull it off when the

:11:06.:11:10.

person is at their own front door sitting in their own living room

:11:11.:11:13.

using their own phone, opening their own poster responding to what seems

:11:14.:11:19.

like a personal e-mail. As a result, one in five older people in Sussex

:11:20.:11:23.

are afraid to answer their own phone in their own home. These scams are

:11:24.:11:26.

not always carried out by strangers. They might begin to did by members

:11:27.:11:39.

of their own family, or carers or close friends. Adult social services

:11:40.:11:45.

received allegations of 21,935 cases of theft and fraud against elderly

:11:46.:11:48.

that Tim 's -- in the 12 months. Age UK is doing good work on my own

:11:49.:12:13.

constituency, where the average victim loses ?23,000 over a 12 month

:12:14.:12:21.

period. They provide support services give victims. As a society,

:12:22.:12:25.

we also need to do more to encourage family members to better protect and

:12:26.:12:29.

look after their elderly relatives. Investing in hidden cameras in a

:12:30.:12:36.

bulletin's home because it makes it easier for police to catch regular

:12:37.:12:42.

perpetrators. Call blocking technology that we have heard about

:12:43.:12:47.

is incredibly difficult for older people to install, we should

:12:48.:12:52.

encourage family members to do that. There is a duty of care for both the

:12:53.:12:57.

workers and bank staff. But it must go further. I would also like to

:12:58.:13:02.

suggest that scans older link -- targeting the elderly be

:13:03.:13:09.

recategorised as a different crime, as they are aimed at the vulnerable.

:13:10.:13:20.

We already treat child abuse as a separate crime and while I obviously

:13:21.:13:25.

recognise the real differences between physical child abuse and

:13:26.:13:29.

scams against the elderly, both or especially Republican and because

:13:30.:13:32.

the target those are least able to defend and protect themselves. In

:13:33.:13:36.

San Diego in America, they have an official Elder abuse investigation

:13:37.:13:47.

unit. I would urge we make it a priority. Reporting of elder abuse

:13:48.:13:55.

is mandatory. It makes it easier to collect evidence and prosecute. In

:13:56.:14:01.

the case worker is assigned to each person who is a victim of a scam.

:14:02.:14:12.

Order! And sorry. Speak to your colleagues. -- I am sorry, I'm

:14:13.:14:22.

speaking to your colleagues. I thank them for securing the debate today.

:14:23.:14:25.

We have already heard some of the atrocious cases of scamming of those

:14:26.:14:33.

who are most vulnerable. Some victims have been forced to

:14:34.:14:38.

remortgage or even sell their homes to cover costs. I would like to draw

:14:39.:14:43.

the House's attention to a case in Wales. Up to May 2016, the 8774

:14:44.:14:53.

victims of fraud reported. It is estimated that only 5% of scamming

:14:54.:14:57.

victims report being scammed to reality, so the reality is much

:14:58.:15:00.

worse. I would like to briefly highlight once, that has affected a

:15:01.:15:07.

number of my constituents. They have been targeted by an automated voice

:15:08.:15:16.

mail system that has allegedly come from Revenue and Customs, and the

:15:17.:15:24.

person asks for a number of personal details including National Insurance

:15:25.:15:30.

numbers. A person claiming to be from age is a -- from HM RC is a

:15:31.:15:46.

common scam. People are often caught out, and they are unclear about

:15:47.:15:49.

where they can go to report what has happened to them. Many would argue,

:15:50.:15:54.

Mr Deputy Speaker, that scamming in some of our constituencies is at

:15:55.:16:00.

crisis point. It will only get worse if it is not given the attention it

:16:01.:16:09.

needs. We haven't ageing population and -- we have an ageing population,

:16:10.:16:17.

and an increase in the number of people with dementia. We have new

:16:18.:16:23.

avenues for fraudsters to explore. Year-to-year, a 50% increase -- 58%

:16:24.:16:32.

increase in suspect course. It is difficult to assess the effect of

:16:33.:16:36.

scamming today due to the fact that so many victims choose not to report

:16:37.:16:41.

the crimes. We can say with certainty that it will increase in

:16:42.:16:45.

future. The ONS predict that a 5% increase in elderly abuse will

:16:46.:16:53.

transpire by 2030. We must recognise this is a tremendous problem. I'm

:16:54.:16:56.

glad that we have had the opportunity to highlight this today.

:16:57.:17:00.

It is our duty in this House not only to draw attention to the issue

:17:01.:17:04.

of scamming and its effects on individuals but to also to look

:17:05.:17:09.

towards solutions. There needs to be sufficient support for those falling

:17:10.:17:14.

foul of it. Trading Standards continue to do excellent work, but

:17:15.:17:20.

Budget cuts means they cannot reach their potential. Call blocking

:17:21.:17:24.

projects have done wonders to tackle the issue but they can only continue

:17:25.:17:31.

with sufficient funding. It is unacceptable that there has been a

:17:32.:17:36.

53% cut to front-line officers of Trading Standards since 2009. There

:17:37.:17:44.

can be no denial that this has into bitter to the issue. -- contributed

:17:45.:17:53.

to the issue. We must also invest in the police to allow them to raise

:17:54.:17:57.

awareness. In the scam in my constituency, South Wales police

:17:58.:18:01.

have worked locally to help people know about the issue via social

:18:02.:18:05.

media, and it has reached hundreds of thousands of people across the

:18:06.:18:09.

South Wales area. The Government must make suggestions on further

:18:10.:18:12.

steps to tackle such commonality, and cuts cannot continue without

:18:13.:18:17.

consideration of consequences. I'm glad we have mothers from both sides

:18:18.:18:24.

of the chamber today to consider the issue, and there is a consensus on

:18:25.:18:28.

it, and we have common ground on the problem. We cannot ignore the fact

:18:29.:18:30.

that governed cuts have contributed to the dilemma and I would urge the

:18:31.:18:39.

government to examine the issue and to invest in front-line services to

:18:40.:18:45.

tackle the problem. Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I congratulate my

:18:46.:18:48.

honourable friend for securing this important debate. I'm sure, like all

:18:49.:18:53.

members, I have experienced constituents at my surgery tearing

:18:54.:18:58.

their hair out and almost in tears following a number of scams. I want

:18:59.:19:05.

to focus on two particular issues if time permits. Both work perpetrated

:19:06.:19:09.

against professional people who did all the appropriate checks. I want

:19:10.:19:13.

to highlight the fact that they feel let down by the investigatory and

:19:14.:19:23.

regulatory authorities. One couple lost ?19,000 as a result of an

:19:24.:19:29.

investment in a carbon offset scheme, and another couple lost

:19:30.:19:34.

?38,000. The reality, Mr Deputy Speaker, is that if these couples

:19:35.:19:40.

have had their home burgled and lost those amounts of money, it is fair

:19:41.:19:45.

to say they would have had a more positive response from the police

:19:46.:19:48.

and other authorities, and they were to have had an investigating officer

:19:49.:19:55.

who they could personally contact. In the case I mentioned, reported to

:19:56.:20:04.

Action Fraud, the correspondence they have had amounts to this.

:20:05.:20:09.

Please find attached the report they have requested. We advise you to

:20:10.:20:15.

keep this safe. More information can be found on our website. That is not

:20:16.:20:20.

inspire confidence. Because this was a US-based investment, in despair,

:20:21.:20:28.

my constituents were seeking help and support from the US authorities.

:20:29.:20:35.

I must congratulate the New York police Department, who actually

:20:36.:20:37.

looked into the matter, came back to them and the Lieutenant e-mailed

:20:38.:20:47.

them, gave them his personal contact details and so on. That was a

:20:48.:20:56.

positive and helpful response. I quote from an e-mail from the

:20:57.:20:59.

constituents. My reason for writing is there appears to be little of the

:21:00.:21:03.

practical nature that the UK government is doing to support the

:21:04.:21:06.

victims of crime. I think it is fair to say, based on what the minister

:21:07.:21:10.

said, we are having a more positive response. I would point out this was

:21:11.:21:20.

written in 2014. We fell victim to an advisory scam, we wanted to

:21:21.:21:25.

invest in an ethical investment. I did as much research as I did on the

:21:26.:21:33.

Company and found little to dissuade us, although I was concerned about

:21:34.:21:43.

the cold calling. I was told that they would be happy to do with me,

:21:44.:21:52.

but I heard nothing. I was told by the police that they could not

:21:53.:21:56.

investigate further until Action Fraud reverted back to them. --

:21:57.:22:04.

referred it back to them. I have no doubt it has happened and will

:22:05.:22:09.

continue to happen to others. I wanted to let you know about the

:22:10.:22:16.

inadequacies of the support offered to victims of this such crime. The

:22:17.:22:23.

next involved what is a familiar scam, using the name of the well

:22:24.:22:29.

established and reputable organisation. As we heard earlier,

:22:30.:22:36.

being its contact details and letterheads and so on. Personal

:22:37.:22:41.

contact was made between three suppose it investment brokers and my

:22:42.:22:46.

constituent. They became very friendly and familiar with them.

:22:47.:22:53.

Therefore, it built up confidence that they could invest safely.

:22:54.:22:58.

Again, they did all the appropriate checks. Again, the had been referred

:22:59.:23:00.

to action fraud. -- Action Fraud. We should ensure that more referrals

:23:01.:23:14.

go back to the local police force so that action can be taken. I would

:23:15.:23:19.

urge the Minister and her colleagues to do what they can to ensure that

:23:20.:23:24.

our police and regulatory authorities take a much more serious

:23:25.:23:29.

approach to these, when people are actually losing their life savings.

:23:30.:23:34.

To be there, following my correspondent with Action Fraud, I

:23:35.:23:41.

have been invited to a programme by the City of London police to tell me

:23:42.:23:45.

of their activities. I hope that when I go they will be able to

:23:46.:23:50.

report something more positive. The honourable member for Solihull made

:23:51.:23:56.

mention of the chartered straight edge -- Trading Standards Institute.

:23:57.:24:05.

Victims tend to be elderly and less likely to use the web, and we must

:24:06.:24:11.

ensure that all mediums must be used to get the word out. One of the

:24:12.:24:18.

constituents told my senior caseworker about an unsolicited call

:24:19.:24:21.

he received from a company claiming his properly with incorrect it

:24:22.:24:26.

banned it in terms of council tax. For a fee of six to 9.99, Baker --

:24:27.:24:49.

they would fix the issue. The service offered in the

:24:50.:24:58.

unsolicited call was unnecessary. Other borough will constituents may

:24:59.:25:02.

be affected by this company and they're very questionable practices.

:25:03.:25:06.

My research staff looked into the history of the company which had

:25:07.:25:12.

office moves and changes of directorship. I requested a refund

:25:13.:25:17.

for my constituent but unfortunately the response was lamentable. My

:25:18.:25:22.

office then reported the situation to the local Trading Standards team

:25:23.:25:25.

on North Lanarkshire Council, who were extremely helpful. The fitted a

:25:26.:25:47.

blocking device, constituent's phone. Unfortunately, my constituent

:25:48.:25:54.

used a good card rather than a credit card so they were not able to

:25:55.:25:58.

get their money back. There is enhanced user protection when using

:25:59.:26:02.

a credit card. I am now aware of the company within my constituency which

:26:03.:26:08.

has a record of dubious sales practices throughout Scotland. It

:26:09.:26:14.

came to my attention when a man whose wife has dementia contacted

:26:15.:26:21.

me. They made an unsolicited visit, offering an external cosmetic

:26:22.:26:25.

service for the home. After taking an ?800 deposit, the Colony took

:26:26.:26:32.

over ?6,000 work of unnecessary cosmetic work to the House. So keen

:26:33.:26:35.

to get the money out of this couple, the company did not check to see if

:26:36.:26:40.

they owned the property, which they did not. Further research shows they

:26:41.:26:45.

claim to have a ten year guarantee. When -- on closer inspection, their

:26:46.:26:54.

practice is to have several companies offering the same service.

:26:55.:26:57.

The directors then fold the company when the heat becomes too great,

:26:58.:27:00.

moving the main business to one of the many other companies, always

:27:01.:27:05.

with the same two directors in charge. The guarantees are therefore

:27:06.:27:08.

not even worth the paper they are written on. This shop business

:27:09.:27:13.

practice also has a knock-on effect with communities, and creates

:27:14.:27:15.

reputational risk to other bona fides companies in an increasingly

:27:16.:27:20.

competitive market. It is difficult for consumers to work out which

:27:21.:27:24.

companies are trustworthy and which are untrustworthy.

:27:25.:27:29.

In many consumers believe that a ten year guarantee shows a company to be

:27:30.:27:36.

trustworthy. In this case nothing could be further from the truth. I

:27:37.:27:43.

also feel for the staff involved as they too may be unaware. I support

:27:44.:27:49.

the honourable member for Soliola and my honourable friend from North

:27:50.:27:53.

Ayrshire and Aaron, and orders the ministers to show the leadership

:27:54.:27:57.

needed to coordinate a strong public service response to these despicable

:27:58.:28:03.

practices. I want to join in congratulating my

:28:04.:28:10.

honourable friend from Solihull and my honourable member from North

:28:11.:28:13.

Ayrshire for securing this important debate. Financial scamming and fraud

:28:14.:28:18.

has a devastating impact on the elderly and the vulnerable. We have

:28:19.:28:22.

heard today from members on both sides of the House stories about

:28:23.:28:27.

financial loss and the incredible mental distress caused to people,

:28:28.:28:31.

many of whom are among the most vulnerable in our society. Each of

:28:32.:28:36.

us have constituents who have lost considerable sums of money to scams,

:28:37.:28:40.

with many falling victim because they are too trusting, because they

:28:41.:28:43.

underestimate the maliciousness of those who perpetrate these crimes,

:28:44.:28:48.

because there are subjected to a continual bombardment of nuisance

:28:49.:28:51.

calls and through desperation giving. Scammers are highly

:28:52.:28:56.

organised, they are predatory and exploitative. Yesterday the

:28:57.:29:02.

Stockport express, my local paper, reported that so far this year only

:29:03.:29:05.

300 people have fallen victim to fraud. This is as a result of cyber

:29:06.:29:12.

fraud, nuisance calls and bogus traders. In my constituency, Trading

:29:13.:29:18.

Standards have identified a recent scam where people have been told

:29:19.:29:24.

they are paid -- they are paid too much council tax, and are encouraged

:29:25.:29:28.

to part with banking details to gain a refund. Victims cannot even trust

:29:29.:29:32.

the numbers on their phones to be genuine anime or, as highlighted

:29:33.:29:36.

last night on BBC One's programme, rip-off Britain. -- any more. This

:29:37.:29:44.

scam allows fraudsters to phone victims under a number which appears

:29:45.:29:50.

to be genuine, like the bank. And this helps persuade them to part

:29:51.:29:55.

with sometimes large sums of money. So this type of crime is becoming

:29:56.:29:59.

even more sophisticated as criminals are able to ghost phone numbers and

:30:00.:30:03.

hijacked genuine phone numbers which appear legitimate. It is important

:30:04.:30:08.

we continue to take steps to address these new types of fraud as and when

:30:09.:30:16.

they appear. People who are ill, isolated and lonely at particularly

:30:17.:30:22.

affected by these types of crime. The Internet or phone line are often

:30:23.:30:25.

their only link to the world. Apart from financial loss, the feeling of

:30:26.:30:30.

safety in their own homes is undermined. They often become more

:30:31.:30:35.

isolated and distrusting. Mr Deputy Speaker, I welcome the initiative is

:30:36.:30:40.

to tackle this crime, such as the setting the giant task -- fraud task

:30:41.:30:45.

force earlier this year. I look forward to hearing their

:30:46.:30:50.

achievements and intelligence gathering. I am pleased there will

:30:51.:30:54.

be a better co-ordinated approach to the sharing of intelligence between

:30:55.:30:59.

banks and law enforcement agencies, that will address areas currently

:31:00.:31:02.

exploited by these fraudsters. I look forward to hearing from the

:31:03.:31:05.

minister what progress has been made in the few minutes -- months it has

:31:06.:31:10.

been established, in due course. It is vitally important we raise

:31:11.:31:13.

awareness about this important issue, so those most at risk can

:31:14.:31:16.

spot the scams and protect themselves. I welcome the work of

:31:17.:31:23.

groups like the chartered trading standards Institute and the

:31:24.:31:26.

ambassadors programme I support. I want to take some time, if I may, to

:31:27.:31:30.

address the language of scams, which was referred to by my honourable

:31:31.:31:35.

friend, the member from Sully Hall, area. The word scamming implies an

:31:36.:31:41.

idea of cult -- culpability or negligence on the part of the victim

:31:42.:31:45.

and may change how people view the nature of the crime. We use

:31:46.:31:52.

descriptions to say people have been scammed, Khan, cheated, but

:31:53.:31:56.

overwhelmingly they should be described as what they are. Good

:31:57.:32:00.

honest people who are victims of the most heartless fraudulent act. As a

:32:01.:32:10.

result the possibility the crime will be reported because of this

:32:11.:32:14.

language decreases. The victim will feel ashamed. I want to mention the

:32:15.:32:21.

importance of a long-term strategy. The elderly is a democratic --

:32:22.:32:25.

demographic group increasing year-on-year in. The severity and

:32:26.:32:34.

importance for greater Britain section is profound. -- greater

:32:35.:32:44.

protection. We must ensure the most vulnerable in society receive the

:32:45.:32:48.

appropriate support and assistance to protect them from falling victim

:32:49.:32:53.

to these devastating crimes. Mr Deputy Speaker, individuals have

:32:54.:33:00.

always sought to deceive and take advantage of the most vulnerable in

:33:01.:33:07.

society. As our world is increasingly moved online,

:33:08.:33:09.

transforming how we communicate, the way we do business and the way we

:33:10.:33:13.

live so much of our lives, sadly many of those fraudsters have used

:33:14.:33:18.

the same technologies to increase and, with ever more elaborate ways

:33:19.:33:24.

of defrauding vulnerable people. Indeed, action fraud estimates that

:33:25.:33:30.

around 70% of fraud is either conducted online or is cyber

:33:31.:33:41.

enabled. I think for most of us, casework relating to scams probably

:33:42.:33:45.

makes up a relatively small amount of our postbag and e-mail inboxes.

:33:46.:33:49.

That doesn't mean this isn't a sizeable problem. It's clear that

:33:50.:33:56.

many of the people most at risk of fraud and scams are also among the

:33:57.:34:02.

least likely to come forward to their MPs are even to the police and

:34:03.:34:09.

other agencies. Sadly, I don't need to speculate on this matter. Shortly

:34:10.:34:16.

before I was elected this year, a member of my family received a

:34:17.:34:19.

letter apparently from the Serious Fraud Office. Saying they needed

:34:20.:34:27.

help, ironically, to cash some serious fraudsters. -- catch. There

:34:28.:34:33.

was a telephone number supplied. Give the details. Money had to be

:34:34.:34:40.

transferred into an account which was used as some kind of trick for

:34:41.:34:47.

the fraudster. My relative wanted to help the authorities and transferred

:34:48.:34:50.

the money. Then of course there was another call saying, thank you very

:34:51.:34:55.

much for that. We just need that bit more money. This went on until,

:34:56.:34:59.

fortunately, the one time she went into a post office branch, the lady

:35:00.:35:05.

behind the counter knew my relative, knew that this was not normal

:35:06.:35:13.

conduct and contacted another relative with concerns. That was

:35:14.:35:16.

finally stopped but after several thousand pounds had been lost. They

:35:17.:35:23.

cannot be recovered. But more importantly, it has left my

:35:24.:35:29.

relative, who has always been proud, intelligent and independent, seeing

:35:30.:35:36.

themselves as clumsy and embarrassed. They feel stupid to

:35:37.:35:43.

have been taken in in such a way. We as a society must play a part in

:35:44.:35:48.

protecting the most vulnerable. This includes against fraudsters online

:35:49.:35:52.

or otherwise. From local authorities, police, members of our

:35:53.:36:00.

communities. Technologically savvy members of our communities. I was

:36:01.:36:04.

heartened to hear that my right honourable friend, who is now the

:36:05.:36:08.

Prime Minister, authorise the expansion of police volunteer roles

:36:09.:36:13.

to help with this. So that individuals with digital skills can

:36:14.:36:16.

support police digital investigations by providing the

:36:17.:36:21.

technical expertise to Sciver and digital units. I know this has been

:36:22.:36:24.

trialled and piloted in Hampshire and Gloucestershire. I hope to see

:36:25.:36:29.

this expanded much more widely around the country. There is also,

:36:30.:36:37.

surely, much more that could be done in partnership with financial

:36:38.:36:44.

services to trace these criminals. We are all familiar with the

:36:45.:36:50.

necessary anti-money-laundering regulation that means anybody

:36:51.:36:52.

wanting to set up a current account or anybody wanting to change

:36:53.:36:59.

signatories on a bank account, it can feel like an interminable

:37:00.:37:08.

process. And yet it is apparently possible to trace the bank accounts

:37:09.:37:14.

into which these transfers have been made, and even less likely that

:37:15.:37:22.

these monies will ever be recovered. This is something that is surely not

:37:23.:37:29.

beyond the wit of man and certainly of the people running these

:37:30.:37:33.

financial institutions, to do much more to ensure these are traced. It

:37:34.:37:37.

is simply not acceptable that people are vulnerable and victims are left

:37:38.:37:42.

scared in their own homes. Online threats have changed. The way

:37:43.:37:46.

respond to them must change so that we can protect vulnerable people in

:37:47.:37:54.

our communities. I would like to congratulate the honourable members

:37:55.:37:58.

for Sully Hall and North Ayrshire for securing this most important

:37:59.:38:02.

debate. -- Solihull. I would like to pay tribute to all speakers whose

:38:03.:38:05.

contributions have helped us to discuss this very important issue.

:38:06.:38:11.

Scamming is an increasing problem within our communities. Mostly

:38:12.:38:14.

targeting the elderly and the vulnerable. The average age is, I

:38:15.:38:18.

believe, 74. Even that the Office for National Statistics say the

:38:19.:38:26.

number of elderly people will increase significantly to over 15

:38:27.:38:30.

million by 2000 and 30, the potential for more scamming victims

:38:31.:38:35.

is likely to increase as well. -- 2030. It is not just the financial

:38:36.:38:40.

loss that causes pain. There can be severe psychological and emotional

:38:41.:38:43.

wounds that can take a considerable time to heal. Victims will

:38:44.:38:49.

inevitably suffer financial loss, but very often depression and

:38:50.:38:53.

possibly relationship breakdowns. What is terrifying is that

:38:54.:38:56.

potentially a third of all victims of scams will fall prey to another

:38:57.:39:04.

scam within 12 months. Mass mail scams coursed the UK consumer

:39:05.:39:09.

between one billion pounds and ?5 billion every year, with an average

:39:10.:39:13.

loss per person, as we have heard earlier, ?1000. Although it has been

:39:14.:39:17.

known for some victims to lose up to ?1 million. Earlier this week a

:39:18.:39:26.

gentleman lost his home to scammers. There are more than 190 trading

:39:27.:39:30.

standards services across the UK, each working to tackle scams in

:39:31.:39:36.

their area. However, the number of officers working on the front line

:39:37.:39:43.

has fallen by 53% since 2009. Due to cutbacks and budget pressures. And

:39:44.:39:46.

some service areas are running with less than one professionally trained

:39:47.:39:52.

member of staff. The current budget for Trading Standards services

:39:53.:39:56.

across the UK equates to just ?1 99 per person per year in the UK. These

:39:57.:40:04.

local teams are in place to step in whenever a victim of a financial

:40:05.:40:08.

scam is identified, and work with the police to help bring justice.

:40:09.:40:13.

However, the fact that only 5% of victims report crimes, often due to

:40:14.:40:18.

embarrassment, means that criminals continue to scam vulnerable people

:40:19.:40:22.

of their savings very often with little consequence. The national

:40:23.:40:30.

Trading Standards scams team was founded in 2012 and identifies

:40:31.:40:33.

vulnerable individuals to the local authority teams by using captured

:40:34.:40:39.

criminal databases. This team shares a ?13 million target, along with

:40:40.:40:44.

other financial crime teams, which is shockingly low when you consider

:40:45.:40:48.

that financial scammers cost UK consumers between ?5 billion and ?10

:40:49.:40:56.

billion every year. Trading Standards can tackle this issue more

:40:57.:41:00.

effectively with the partnership of other government agencies, such as

:41:01.:41:05.

the police and social care, by sharing intelligence and

:41:06.:41:09.

safeguarding victims. Both bodies are experiencing their own limited

:41:10.:41:14.

resources. Limiting the opportunities for partnerships with

:41:15.:41:16.

Trading Standards. Safeguards against scams harm and abuse need to

:41:17.:41:23.

be an integral part of scare and sport. This is a perfect example of

:41:24.:41:28.

the government cutting funding to vital services which will have a

:41:29.:41:30.

detrimental effect on the public. A vital tool is consumer awareness.

:41:31.:41:40.

Many websites actually sell marketing leads to any purchaser

:41:41.:41:45.

without restrictions. There are many websites that will allow you to

:41:46.:41:51.

purchase a list of personal details for market research. However, you

:41:52.:41:53.

don't actually deep to be in business to get them. One of these

:41:54.:42:00.

sites identified was Targets Located, who have a top ten of the

:42:01.:42:08.

you can scam. Disabled car buyers is number one, but they claim to have

:42:09.:42:18.

390,000 people receiving benefits who are ripe for scamming. Sites

:42:19.:42:25.

such as this are dedicated to making sure that, for a small fee, you can

:42:26.:42:33.

obtain details of the most viable people in society. Mr cheese on the

:42:34.:42:39.

sale of data will reduce the number of people falling victim to scams.

:42:40.:42:48.

In order to tackle the issue of scams, then is to be a reverse in

:42:49.:42:54.

the cuts to police funding. Should this continue, we will see more

:42:55.:42:58.

scams being conducted in our communities. Cooperation between

:42:59.:43:03.

Trading Standards and the police is vital, but it can only happen if

:43:04.:43:06.

they are given the resources they need. We have a moral responsibility

:43:07.:43:10.

to protect the elderly and vulnerable in our society. We have

:43:11.:43:16.

two ensure that the resources to do this are made available to the

:43:17.:43:20.

professionals who have the skills to best offer this protection.

:43:21.:43:30.

I thank all honourable and Right Honourable members for the

:43:31.:43:33.

conclusion to this debate. They have a variety of stories and concerns,

:43:34.:43:38.

highlighting that this touches so many of our constituents and in some

:43:39.:43:42.

businesses out immediate families. I walk the Minister to her place and

:43:43.:43:50.

commitment to focus on this most cruel of crimes. This is not just

:43:51.:43:55.

about government, but also about private firms, third sector and

:43:56.:44:00.

wider society in general. Mr Deputy Speaker, fraud will always be there.

:44:01.:44:03.

But we can make it harder for them if we act together. Marvellous. The

:44:04.:44:09.

question is as the order paper. As many of that opinion say I've. The

:44:10.:44:16.

ayes have it. We now come to the backbench motion

:44:17.:44:24.

on the fourth Industrial Revolution. Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker, I wish

:44:25.:44:28.

to move as on the order paper, which is in my name and the honourable

:44:29.:44:35.

member of Portslade. I thank the backbench Business Committee for

:44:36.:44:38.

giving me the opportunity to debate this motion in the House today for

:44:39.:44:43.

the first time in this chamber. 250 years ago, the world's first

:44:44.:44:47.

Industrial Revolution began here in Britain. New engines, powered by

:44:48.:44:51.

coal and steam made my fractured goods and allowed them to be

:44:52.:44:54.

transported across the country on the new railways, roads, bridges and

:44:55.:45:04.

file tax -- viaducts. After two further industrial ages, versa

:45:05.:45:12.

driven by electors the antenna Electronics, we have reached the

:45:13.:45:15.

fourth industrial age. We have seen a fusion of technologies that blur

:45:16.:45:25.

the boundaries between physical, electronic and biological spheres.

:45:26.:45:32.

Breakthroughs in new products in fields such as artificial

:45:33.:45:37.

intelligence, driverless cars, drones, 3-D printing and technology

:45:38.:45:42.

to name a few have captured the imagination of the public and

:45:43.:45:46.

challenged policymakers. The offer economic growth and advantages to

:45:47.:45:51.

countries that seizes opportunities as well as lower prices, and grated

:45:52.:45:59.

choice for consumers. They will also disrupt every industry in every

:46:00.:46:04.

country. The pose profound challenges, especially to countries

:46:05.:46:07.

and community 's that are unprepared or unresponsive. At the global

:46:08.:46:14.

level, the world -- the world economic Forum has become

:46:15.:46:22.

interested. At this House, we have a role in leading the debate,

:46:23.:46:29.

understanding the challenges and making it a success. Today's debate

:46:30.:46:38.

is all the more timely and relevant. My view on this issue is clear, we

:46:39.:46:44.

are in a global race for success. We must actively seize the

:46:45.:46:47.

opportunities presented by this to drive economic growth, enhancing the

:46:48.:46:51.

technology and social changes it brings for the nation's benefit. We

:46:52.:46:59.

must become a new leader in the global economy. To do this, we must

:47:00.:47:04.

take a proactive, free-market approach. We must prepare for

:47:05.:47:09.

destructive technologies, not just react to them. We must make

:47:10.:47:14.

mastering the fourth Industrial Revolution part of the strategy. As

:47:15.:47:19.

we launch the first industrial pollution 250 years ago, we must

:47:20.:47:24.

lead the new one in this century. To understand the scale of the

:47:25.:47:30.

innovations taking place on a practical scale, must consider the

:47:31.:47:33.

new products and services that are already transforming the way we live

:47:34.:47:43.

and work. The 4IR's advances are interconnectivity and machine

:47:44.:47:45.

learning and artificial intelligence. They give rise to

:47:46.:47:52.

possibly disruptive technologies such as 3D printing, driverless cars

:47:53.:47:58.

and others. The lead towards a fusion that will streamline

:47:59.:48:02.

production and deliver new products that does truly revolutionary. I

:48:03.:48:07.

will give way. I am grateful. Well done to my honourable friend and

:48:08.:48:11.

county colleague for securing this debate. I recognise the four

:48:12.:48:15.

technologies that underpinned the revolution. Will he agree that there

:48:16.:48:20.

are others which were revolution rise our lives, not least synthetic

:48:21.:48:25.

biology in which we are a world leader. Would he support me in on

:48:26.:48:29.

courage in the Government and the Minister to revive the bigger that

:48:30.:48:34.

is needed for the eight great technologies policy which the

:48:35.:48:37.

Government adopted not four years ago. I thank him for his

:48:38.:48:44.

intervention. He has a passionate record in this field, so I support

:48:45.:48:47.

him in this field I look forward to working with him on that. What he

:48:48.:48:54.

says Professor transition from the digitisation of information to the

:48:55.:48:57.

real fusion of technologies, whether they be by logical, physical or

:48:58.:49:00.

digital. It is already conceivable in future that entire factories

:49:01.:49:07.

could become automated, requiring only energy and materials to be

:49:08.:49:13.

running 24 hours a day. Simile, the 4IR is blurring the lines between

:49:14.:49:16.

Manny factoring and service as networked product make life easier

:49:17.:49:23.

for consumers. Smart boilers bring order spare parts, and the already

:49:24.:49:29.

making their way into the market. This fast moving market also present

:49:30.:49:35.

opportunities for Britain's SMEs, which are the most nimble. An

:49:36.:49:42.

excellent examples comes from my constituency, where a local start-up

:49:43.:49:50.

is getting a head start in the 4IR market by trading in 3-D printers

:49:51.:49:53.

and how to use them. They have seized the opportunity is to create

:49:54.:49:58.

new jobs in a new industry and generating new wealth. I will give

:49:59.:50:04.

way. Again, I give praise for securing this exhume the important

:50:05.:50:08.

debate and I suspect this is a subject we'll come back too many

:50:09.:50:11.

times in the coming decades if not centuries. Would he agree that one

:50:12.:50:16.

of the important changes we need to think about here in this House is

:50:17.:50:22.

the change to personal law. The first two file secures patterns. If

:50:23.:50:33.

you wait until it is the first to file, you advantage large companies

:50:34.:50:49.

who can file may patterns. Intellectual property is key to

:50:50.:50:59.

making us a forerunner in the industries. The business of my

:51:00.:51:10.

constituents have clients such as Rolls Royce and Pinewood Studios.

:51:11.:51:12.

Larger businesses which might or will friend also mentioned can bring

:51:13.:51:16.

scale and expertise to the process as well. Lockheed Martin, for

:51:17.:51:25.

example, has data expertise helps Royal Mail track parcels more

:51:26.:51:33.

efficiently. These new disruptive 4IR industries allow us to generate

:51:34.:51:40.

new economic growth. What is clear is that the country is best -- the

:51:41.:51:46.

country's best able to take advantage of 4IR are those who move

:51:47.:51:54.

quickly. I hope this government will continue to focus on pro-enterprise

:51:55.:52:06.

policies that make the theUK a forerunner in this revolution. The

:52:07.:52:13.

economic benefits must be shared throughout the country, not just

:52:14.:52:15.

concentrated in London and the south-east. Regional investment

:52:16.:52:22.

funds for 4IR technologies must assimilate growth outside the M25.

:52:23.:52:33.

-- must produce growth. Other advanced economies such as

:52:34.:52:37.

Israel already play a key role in helping new sectors develop and our

:52:38.:52:41.

covenant should do the same. Britain must continue to invest in its

:52:42.:52:43.

digital infrastructure which is as essential as today as railways were

:52:44.:52:49.

in the age of steam. It should include a new age of fibre-optic

:52:50.:52:57.

Internet roll-out. I draw his attention to a report which is

:52:58.:53:07.

forthcoming that will lay out more. Whilst the Dwight Gayle will bring

:53:08.:53:13.

benefits, it also caused challenges as well. By shaping how it evolves,

:53:14.:53:18.

we can tackle this head on. Automation increasingly substituents

:53:19.:53:20.

for human labour, and so the disbursement of workers could result

:53:21.:53:26.

in short-term and implement in low-wage sectors of the economy. The

:53:27.:53:29.

Government has a way to dampening the down side effects of the 4IR,

:53:30.:53:35.

but it is the -- in particular by urging the gap -- by bridging the

:53:36.:53:44.

gap. The technology that I have talked about and destruction it may

:53:45.:53:46.

bring is not some external force over which we have no control

:53:47.:53:53.

whatsoever. All of us have a responsibility to shape how it

:53:54.:54:05.

gross. -- how it grows. As the fourth Industrial Revolution

:54:06.:54:11.

gathers pace, we must embrace it, harnesses benefits and she bids

:54:12.:54:17.

revolution. -- and embrace its evolution. Gutman has a key for the

:54:18.:54:31.

play in this. We must address the challenges as well. It must not

:54:32.:54:37.

consist of changes that happened to us but changes that work for us all.

:54:38.:54:46.

Throughout our history, Britain has adopted an approach to it that

:54:47.:54:51.

encourages development and innovation. We must adopt the same

:54:52.:54:59.

forward-thinking, pro-innovation approach when it comes to the 4IR.

:55:00.:55:04.

In Britain, we reach for the future rather than just yearning for the

:55:05.:55:08.

past. As before, the new wave technology will change can bring

:55:09.:55:12.

substantial benefits, from greater productivity and lower batching

:55:13.:55:19.

costs to new choice for consumers. I hope we will take that approach by

:55:20.:55:24.

placing 4IR at the heart of its strategy. In doing so, we can -- in

:55:25.:55:32.

a new Renaissance, launch a new industrial era and give Great

:55:33.:55:44.

Britain its place in the upcoming revolution. The question is as on

:55:45.:55:51.

the order paper. It feels like getting to the airport and being

:55:52.:55:56.

upgraded. I'm very grateful to the honourable member for including me

:55:57.:56:01.

in this discussion that led to this debate and allow me to second it. It

:56:02.:56:05.

is a privilege. He spoke brilliantly then. Listening to him speak, it

:56:06.:56:10.

made me realise how exciting and exhilarating the idea of the 4IR

:56:11.:56:15.

actually is. One aspect of this revolution should have every

:56:16.:56:18.

decision maker and our comic on high alert, and that is the rapidity with

:56:19.:56:24.

which is occurring. The 4IR will sweep through our economy in a

:56:25.:56:27.

number of years, not the centuries it took the previous Industrial

:56:28.:56:28.

Revolution is to unfold. Sadly we have been fed on a diet of

:56:29.:56:39.

drones to deliver our groceries, which has a certain tomorrow's world

:56:40.:56:44.

feeling about it. But the truth is this revolution is already under

:56:45.:56:46.

way. Consumers are already controlling their home heating and

:56:47.:56:51.

security by using mobile phones. Hand-held devices are controlling

:56:52.:56:56.

worldwide events by the cloud. It is happening today but we're barely

:56:57.:57:00.

crossed the start line in this race. Microsoft is investing ?5 billion

:57:01.:57:06.

worldwide to build a data centre infrastructure which gives us the

:57:07.:57:10.

idea of the scale of transformation yet to come. Advancements in

:57:11.:57:14.

nanotechnology, 3D printing and renewable energy are opening up a

:57:15.:57:18.

multiplicity of opportunities for medical, academic and industrial

:57:19.:57:23.

research. Our universities are also rising up to the challenge. Next

:57:24.:57:28.

year the University of Sussex will open a new ?10 million Centre for

:57:29.:57:32.

computing, robotic electronics and Megatron X. -- meta- Travelex. I

:57:33.:57:39.

will welcome an intervention to tell me what that actually means. Maybe

:57:40.:57:45.

we can discover together! While many of these new trends will be powerful

:57:46.:57:48.

enough to break through regardless of market conditions, there are

:57:49.:57:52.

several barriers that will need dealing with. The private sector

:57:53.:57:55.

will need to tackle the threat of data security. Cyber threats pose a

:57:56.:57:59.

real world problems to those affected. And a psychological

:58:00.:58:03.

barrier to those who haven't. The private sector must invest in

:58:04.:58:06.

management skills to ensure businesses can be effectively lead

:58:07.:58:10.

through this change. They must also put the territorial needs of their

:58:11.:58:15.

business aside to ensure that the technology works across platforms

:58:16.:58:21.

and geographical areas. There are also challenges the government must

:58:22.:58:25.

be active in supporting our economy to overcome. The first is the

:58:26.:58:29.

infrastructure for the future economy, namely the Internet.

:58:30.:58:33.

Internet speeds are growing by the consumers and commerce going forward

:58:34.:58:38.

will equally need reliability as well as speed. But the biggest

:58:39.:58:42.

challenge we must overcome, in my opinion, is that of making sure that

:58:43.:58:47.

the next generation are equipped with the skills needed to

:58:48.:58:52.

collectively contribute to our economy of the future and personally

:58:53.:58:56.

thrive on it. At present there is a real danger that the rate of change

:58:57.:59:00.

in our economy is not matched by the ability to produce and retain the

:59:01.:59:05.

skills needed. I am a supporter of the apprenticeship levy but I do

:59:06.:59:08.

believe it is being rolled out too fast to ensure that the benefits

:59:09.:59:12.

reach all parts of our economy. Nowhere is this more acute than in

:59:13.:59:18.

the technology centre. Here, post-16 training is too late. It needs to

:59:19.:59:21.

happen pre-16 and preferably from primary school boards. In order to

:59:22.:59:26.

develop the programming and high levels of creativity and creative

:59:27.:59:29.

thinking that is needed by cutting technology firms. At present,

:59:30.:59:34.

forcing large technology companies to pay for post-16 development could

:59:35.:59:40.

have the diverse effect of diverting funding away from pre-16 funding in

:59:41.:59:46.

schools and end up recruiting from abroad. The key goal is to equip our

:59:47.:59:51.

students and young people with the social, creative and academic skills

:59:52.:59:55.

they will need in a fast evolving economy. To date, this has not been

:59:56.:00:00.

achieved and I agree with the former Tory minister, Lord Baker, when he

:00:01.:00:04.

says that the back to basics approach for curriculum is

:00:05.:00:07.

preventing the social and creative development we need. And a report

:00:08.:00:13.

from a foundation each years -- chairs. He says the government White

:00:14.:00:17.

Paper has a firm commitment for students to focus on seven academic

:00:18.:00:22.

subjects at GCSE. In this language, literature, maths, two sciences, a

:00:23.:00:28.

mother and ancient language, geography and history, plus possibly

:00:29.:00:32.

a third science. This is the curriculum laid down by the

:00:33.:00:37.

education act of 1904, although that add three extra subjects, drawing,

:00:38.:00:40.

cooking for girls and carpentry for boys. I have no doubt that had the

:00:41.:00:46.

member for Surrey Heath ended up as Education Secretary for just one

:00:47.:00:50.

more week, we would have had those three subjects on the curriculum as

:00:51.:00:55.

well! We should not go back to the 19th-century diet of academic

:00:56.:00:58.

subjects for all, Lord Baker says. All young people should make and do

:00:59.:01:02.

things as part of a broad and balanced curriculum. Mr Deputy

:01:03.:01:06.

Speaker, emotional intelligence will be as important to the future

:01:07.:01:10.

economy of our country as academic intelligence has been in the past.

:01:11.:01:16.

According to the manufacturers organisation, EES, staff skills are

:01:17.:01:19.

the number one need for the manufacturers as well. It is

:01:20.:01:23.

important to remember the fourth industrial revolution is not only

:01:24.:01:26.

about the digital. It is about the Manufacturing. Britain must have

:01:27.:01:32.

confidence as we move into this next stage of economic life, and except

:01:33.:01:36.

that the same potential, we have the same potential to make things as we

:01:37.:01:40.

did in the first industrial revolution. It was 30 years ago

:01:41.:01:43.

today that Margaret Thatcher opened the Nissan factory in Sunderland. I

:01:44.:01:50.

allow the benches opposite to celebrate. Back then people thought

:01:51.:01:55.

our automotive industry was on its last legs will stop now we know it

:01:56.:01:59.

is one of the most advanced and successful in the world. 30 years

:02:00.:02:04.

ago car doors closed with a loud clunk, today it is with a soft

:02:05.:02:09.

click. That is because of the huge effort and expense that goes into

:02:10.:02:13.

material design and innovation in our country, and explains why this

:02:14.:02:16.

part of our economy can and must work in tandem and not apart from

:02:17.:02:22.

the revolution that is unfolding. The manufacturing sector will

:02:23.:02:26.

contribute to and benefit from the fourth industrial revolution. It has

:02:27.:02:30.

a lot to offer and it has a lot to gain. The progress made by Jaguar

:02:31.:02:36.

Land Rover and Nissan since the 1980s shows what can be achieved if

:02:37.:02:40.

Britain's foundation industries, including the use of metals and

:02:41.:02:44.

materials, are used properly. This has the potential to benefit our new

:02:45.:02:50.

economy massively. From steel and ceramics, and coatings and graphing,

:02:51.:02:55.

this ?200 billion sector has the potential and the innovation -- to

:02:56.:03:00.

provide innovation and materials that are strong and light enough to

:03:01.:03:05.

make the robotic dreams of tomorrow a reality. I can sense my honourable

:03:06.:03:09.

friend from Stoke-on-Trent North twitching at the mention of

:03:10.:03:13.

ceramics. I will be listening out for her intervention shortly. But

:03:14.:03:21.

this sector is omitted from the government centres. I hope that the

:03:22.:03:27.

Minister will listen to the voices of this sector and play an active

:03:28.:03:31.

part in bridging any gaps there may be between this sector and the

:03:32.:03:34.

technological sector of the fourth revolution. And the benefits in this

:03:35.:03:42.

sector, the benefits to this sector from the unfolding revolution, are

:03:43.:03:46.

also clear. Supply chains dots and lines will move towards a system of

:03:47.:03:49.

end to end decision-making by machines. In short, there will be

:03:50.:03:59.

less error. There will be more efficiency and higher productivity.

:04:00.:04:04.

And finally, I would like to move to the other end of our economy. This

:04:05.:04:07.

revolution will impact the self-employed as well as the

:04:08.:04:11.

technological giants and the manufacturers. Between 2000 and 2015

:04:12.:04:17.

British people working alone rose by 73%, the largest growth has been the

:04:18.:04:21.

service sector, primarily supplying education, health and business

:04:22.:04:25.

services. The fourth industrial revolution will transform these

:04:26.:04:33.

connection, virtualisation and their cloud experiences. Huge power that

:04:34.:04:37.

has only been available to large companies in public sector

:04:38.:04:40.

departments will now be readily available to individuals. One person

:04:41.:04:44.

with the right skills and the right imagination will have the power and

:04:45.:04:47.

the capacity to make transformational impact on the

:04:48.:04:52.

economy of the future. The challenge we face, Mr Speaker, is to make sure

:04:53.:04:56.

that this power is available to everybody, from whatever background.

:04:57.:05:01.

I do not believe that entrepreneurial spirit is the gift

:05:02.:05:04.

of middle classes. I believe it is a gift to humanity. Unless we equip

:05:05.:05:08.

every young person with the right skills, many will find the door to

:05:09.:05:12.

modern life and all its wonders slammed in their face. The time to

:05:13.:05:16.

ensure this does not happen is now. Thank you. Thank you Mr Deputy

:05:17.:05:24.

Speaker. They are also starred by congratulating my honourable friend

:05:25.:05:27.

from haven't for securing this very important debate. But also say how

:05:28.:05:33.

delighted I am to follow the honourable member for holes in this

:05:34.:05:39.

debate. And thank him as a colleague on the select committee for yet

:05:40.:05:44.

another excellent contribution. Industry 4.0, we'll call it

:05:45.:05:48.

different things, is an extremely dynamic prospect and something that

:05:49.:05:54.

the UK must fully embrace in the years to come. I don't know if we

:05:55.:05:58.

can talk about centuries to come as my colleague mentioned earlier. I

:05:59.:06:03.

know what he was trying to say. As the co-chairman of the all-party

:06:04.:06:06.

Manufacturing group, I appreciate the importance of raising the

:06:07.:06:09.

awareness of the whole of this topic. I think this gives us a great

:06:10.:06:14.

opportunity to do so. I was very pleased in my intervention in the

:06:15.:06:19.

business questions this morning to have encouragement from the leader

:06:20.:06:23.

of the House to raise strategy, industrial strategy, with the

:06:24.:06:27.

backbench business committee. I would hope that the member for

:06:28.:06:31.

haven't would join me in making that application. The use of technology

:06:32.:06:39.

to aid production is not new. But the advancement of digital machinery

:06:40.:06:44.

in the last decade has brought to light the concept of this industrial

:06:45.:06:50.

Revolution. The first saw the Victorians rapidly improving their

:06:51.:06:54.

wealth and their economic outlook. We must not underestimate the

:06:55.:06:59.

to change and have a similar impact to change and have a similar impact

:07:00.:07:05.

on the way that we do things now. A particular point to stress is that

:07:06.:07:09.

other nations are advancing on this. This is why we must keep up.

:07:10.:07:15.

Countries such as Japan and Germany are already understanding the

:07:16.:07:17.

benefits of these technologies. We cannot allow them to have this

:07:18.:07:24.

window to themselves. Through life engineering services is one way in

:07:25.:07:27.

which we can help innovation which we can help innovation

:07:28.:07:32.

flourish in the UK. The aims of tests are to improve availability,

:07:33.:07:37.

predictability, reliability of complex engineering products, to

:07:38.:07:40.

deliver the lowest possible whole life costs. This is an area we can

:07:41.:07:44.

take the lead in. I recently spoke at the launch of the new test

:07:45.:07:49.

national strategy. And I believe that such a focus on improvement is

:07:50.:07:55.

an important way forward. But more broadly, we need to act now to

:07:56.:08:01.

compete internationally. The adoption of cyber physical systems

:08:02.:08:05.

that are able to collect data, provide insights and be used on a

:08:06.:08:10.

large scale in heavy industries, is vital for UK Manufacturing moving

:08:11.:08:17.

forward. Machines using self optimisation and self

:08:18.:08:19.

configurations, allow complex tasks to be completed in a way that

:08:20.:08:23.

dramatically increases cost efficiencies and delivers better

:08:24.:08:27.

quality. The potential obviously is immense. Businesses will be able to

:08:28.:08:35.

streamline production. Reduce waste. Conduct rapid prototyping. Exploit

:08:36.:08:39.

engage with customers in real-time. engage with customers in real-time.

:08:40.:08:47.

European Parliament briefing paper estimates improvements in efficiency

:08:48.:08:49.

is between 6% and 8% can be is between 6% and 8% can be

:08:50.:08:55.

achieved. In Germany alone, it will add one could -- 1% of GDP to the

:08:56.:09:01.

economy. One of the recurring themes from meetings of the all-party

:09:02.:09:04.

Manufacturing group is the need to plug the skills gap. As mentioned in

:09:05.:09:10.

the group's submission to the enquiry into the productivity plan,

:09:11.:09:16.

the current level of available skills in the UK is inadequate for

:09:17.:09:20.

the future success of Manufacturing. Satisfying this need for

:09:21.:09:24.

higher-level skills is vital for productivity and can be done in a

:09:25.:09:28.

number of ways. Firms need to invest in increasing the capacity and a

:09:29.:09:32.

flow of talented individuals into the work force must be continuous,

:09:33.:09:38.

with apprenticeships a notable factor in making this difference.

:09:39.:09:47.

Industry 4.0 and its associated benefits a way of speeding up this

:09:48.:09:51.

process. Where we can improve the outlook of a skills shortage and

:09:52.:09:54.

hope the government can enhance its support in this regard. Backing of

:09:55.:10:00.

UK catapult centres is proving to be extremely successful. The Digital

:10:01.:10:05.

economy Bill, which seeks to improve our digital infrastructure, it is an

:10:06.:10:10.

encouraging indication of the government's commitment. We should

:10:11.:10:15.

continue to look at all possibilities to secure the UK's

:10:16.:10:17.

role as a leading research and nation. Investment in R will

:10:18.:10:23.

encourage new production in the UK as well as further... R tax

:10:24.:10:32.

credits have been a major boost for small and medium-sized enterprises.

:10:33.:10:36.

Another recurring theme in discussing the future of

:10:37.:10:40.

Manufacturing is the re-shoring of production, and the significant

:10:41.:10:42.

impact this has on the sector and the national economy as a whole. To

:10:43.:10:49.

enhance our efforts, an increase in intelligent automation can be a

:10:50.:10:51.

significant driver of economic growth. With a significant change,

:10:52.:10:58.

new business models should be analysed and the adoption of the

:10:59.:11:03.

concept of industry 4.0 fully considered. The significant

:11:04.:11:09.

investment needed to prevent small and medium sized businesses that may

:11:10.:11:15.

be hindered in the medium term, considering the high level of

:11:16.:11:17.

funding needed to pursue such systems. This use of data

:11:18.:11:26.

protection, the large volume of data used, is gone be sensitive.

:11:27.:11:35.

It is imperative that legislation around data protection is tight

:11:36.:11:41.

before businesses can be confident in changing their business models.

:11:42.:11:46.

Just to name one more challenge that I see in the digitisation of the

:11:47.:11:51.

market, there is a concern that our talent pool will lack the service

:11:52.:11:57.

skills to operate machinery, encompassed by economy 4.0. We need

:11:58.:12:05.

more experts in ICT, which is enhanced by the need of cyber

:12:06.:12:09.

security and the transfer of big data. We need to ensure that the

:12:10.:12:15.

whole system, including education and friendships, work is in harmony

:12:16.:12:22.

to provide the necessary skills. The industrial strategy is relevant in

:12:23.:12:27.

this respect. It is therefore clear that we have an incredible

:12:28.:12:30.

opportunity to rapidly advancement factoring in the UK. This debate is

:12:31.:12:35.

an excellent way of starting the discussion around how we go about

:12:36.:12:39.

embracing these new technologies and how we overcome the challenges in

:12:40.:12:49.

doing so. It is impossible to not remember the

:12:50.:12:58.

lessons from history when we talk about best embracing new technology

:12:59.:13:07.

into everyday life. Without James Watt, we would not be talking about

:13:08.:13:13.

the first industrial revolution, let alone a fourth.

:13:14.:13:20.

For hundreds of years, we let the way in shipbuilding innovation such

:13:21.:13:29.

as the Comet, which offered the most successful steamboat service in

:13:30.:13:35.

Europe. It provided hundreds of jobs. Thread the 19th and 20th

:13:36.:13:43.

century, shipyards remain world leading innovators, reducing the

:13:44.:13:46.

most advanced warships of the day and the most advanced merchant ships

:13:47.:13:53.

in the world. It was not a perfect industry, but people could take

:13:54.:13:57.

pride in their work and without hesitation we could declare that it

:13:58.:14:00.

was an integral part of Scotland's story as a nation. The UK government

:14:01.:14:07.

withdrew funding for shipbuilding in the 1980s. By 1986, male

:14:08.:14:14.

unemployment in Glasgow had risen to 26%. The UK government told us that

:14:15.:14:20.

the private sector would create jobs or publicly supported industries --

:14:21.:14:25.

where publicly supported industries had failed. A McDonald's restaurant

:14:26.:14:31.

is now situated where the wall of the shipyard once stood. In 1988,

:14:32.:14:40.

Margaret Thatcher visited an IBM plant to show how we would

:14:41.:14:46.

transition into new technologies. IBM will permanently end its

:14:47.:14:55.

involvement later this month. The first three Industrial Revolution

:14:56.:14:57.

saw brought success to Inverclyde but adult at the end it with periods

:14:58.:15:05.

of rapid decline. They created well for factory owners and international

:15:06.:15:10.

Company 's, but workers have been left to pick up the pieces when the

:15:11.:15:15.

industries ended. Inverclyde now suffers from depopulation. Public

:15:16.:15:21.

sectors are struggling to survive in the Shadow of those is Oracle

:15:22.:15:24.

failures. The point of this history lesson is this. Inverclyde shows us

:15:25.:15:30.

that technological innovation will never reach its full potential if it

:15:31.:15:33.

lacks a social conscience. The motion before us today states the UK

:15:34.:15:38.

is in a strong position to take advantage of the Fourth Industrial

:15:39.:15:41.

Revolution. In my constituency, I would argue that we have not yet

:15:42.:15:47.

resolved the issues around the decline of the previous

:15:48.:15:51.

technological ages. Undoubtedly, it can be part of the solution. What is

:15:52.:15:59.

to jobs is like mine -- constituencies like mine... The UK

:16:00.:16:11.

governorate has an obligation to help constituencies like Inverclyde

:16:12.:16:16.

to make up for its failures of the past. I would like to see them take

:16:17.:16:21.

extraordinary measures to help and take advantage of the fourth

:16:22.:16:26.

revolution. We know that it will be a major component of the future and

:16:27.:16:31.

technological innovation. Inverclyde will be well-placed take advantage

:16:32.:16:32.

of these developments. It is one of of these developments. It is one of

:16:33.:16:37.

the few areas with a geography that can utilise almost all forms of

:16:38.:16:42.

renewable technology. We mostly have tidal power and enough hills to

:16:43.:16:50.

facilitate wind power. They can power hydro schemes as they did in

:16:51.:16:54.

the past. Solar will never fulfil all about requirements, but it could

:16:55.:16:59.

be a valuable contributor. We already produce biomass fuels under

:17:00.:17:04.

which its produce all over Scotland that were produced in Inverclyde.

:17:05.:17:10.

These sites could be centres of manufacturing once again. Our port

:17:11.:17:17.

facilities Menard beat evil -- may be able to take them to their

:17:18.:17:32.

destinations. While I welcome the UK's approach, but they will not

:17:33.:17:38.

fully utilised areas like Inverclyde. We now see a lack of

:17:39.:17:42.

vision. Renewables could transport Inverclyde. Policies are stifling

:17:43.:17:54.

that potential. There has been a withdrawal of the support that was

:17:55.:18:03.

available. They are actively damaging the area that could make

:18:04.:18:08.

the area vibrant once again. The Fourth Industrial Revolution offers

:18:09.:18:13.

so much, smart money factoring, increasingly intricate technologies

:18:14.:18:20.

and household appliances that could connect to the Internet. What my

:18:21.:18:23.

constituents asking for is employment. Not low-level, poorly

:18:24.:18:29.

paid jobs, but skilled, high-value employment that will boost other

:18:30.:18:32.

businesses and educational is due ships in the area. The Industrial

:18:33.:18:38.

Revolution failed to pull the landed pull out of poverty. Wealth has been

:18:39.:18:46.

speculated by a smaller and smaller section of society. I want to see

:18:47.:18:48.

the Government must treat two things. First, how they plan on to

:18:49.:18:54.

driving forward the Fourth Industrial Revolution and secondly

:18:55.:18:59.

how this technology will be used to benefit the social and economic

:19:00.:19:06.

situation of everyone in society. It could lead to a period of unrivalled

:19:07.:19:13.

prosperity for this country. Without stewardship, these new technologies

:19:14.:19:18.

will only reinforce social, gender and regional inequalities. I'm

:19:19.:19:23.

grateful for him giving way. I wasn't in the chamber yesterday

:19:24.:19:27.

afternoon when I spoke on climate change. I would inform him that

:19:28.:19:31.

through the employment of some of these new technologies, the guys

:19:32.:19:43.

Anson told -- a hospital has installed a plant that will save

:19:44.:19:47.

costs in which they have done because the technology is there and

:19:48.:19:52.

they have sought to adopted, which is doing an immediate good. Biomass

:19:53.:20:04.

heating is a fantastic technology. It is part of a mix that is needed

:20:05.:20:09.

if we will get this right. Finally, want to see a fairer and more

:20:10.:20:13.

prosperous society. One that has opportunities for our young people.

:20:14.:20:19.

Without that sense of progress and social justice, technological

:20:20.:20:21.

advancements will only work against those who need the most assistance.

:20:22.:20:26.

It is time the UK government shows the industrial strategy will benefit

:20:27.:20:29.

working people. If they are unwilling to do so, then transfer

:20:30.:20:34.

the power to Scotland and let us get on with the job. Thank you. This is

:20:35.:20:46.

a record for me speaking twice in 25 hours. I'm grateful for the

:20:47.:20:48.

opportunity. I congratulate my honourable friend, who has secured a

:20:49.:20:55.

worthwhile debate and opened it brilliantly. I apologise for being

:20:56.:21:00.

late to the debate. I was working on the energy and climate change select

:21:01.:21:06.

committee's paper on the renewable heat and transportation targets

:21:07.:21:08.

which is being released this evening. I commend it to the House,

:21:09.:21:13.

it is one of the most insightful committee reports that you will read

:21:14.:21:17.

all year. As they all are! Yesterday, the Minister use some

:21:18.:21:22.

fantastic theatrical references which I hope will become a tradition

:21:23.:21:25.

of his summing up speeches. I know he has and its orthopaedic knowledge

:21:26.:21:29.

of the better, so we look forward to that. -- and encyclopaedic

:21:30.:21:36.

knowledge. I hope to talk about some of the energy opportunities that

:21:37.:21:42.

come from the collision of emerging technologies and our existing energy

:21:43.:21:49.

infrastructure. There is some dispute over whether we're on the

:21:50.:21:51.

third or fourth Industrial Revolution. This book has become a

:21:52.:21:58.

bit of the Bible for me, as I sought to develop my thinking on how energy

:21:59.:22:03.

policy might evolve. He thinks it is the third Industrial Revolution, but

:22:04.:22:07.

nonetheless it is an excellent read and is very much pulling in the same

:22:08.:22:15.

direction as those who are advocating the Fourth Industrial

:22:16.:22:16.

Revolution. When the front bench will have seen and looked in great

:22:17.:22:20.

details at the international industry commission's Smart Power

:22:21.:22:24.

report, which is a fantastic publication for setting out how we

:22:25.:22:29.

do harness all of these wonderful technologies as we digitise the

:22:30.:22:37.

energy system. The reality is we could save ?8 billion a year for the

:22:38.:22:40.

UK economy if we seek to digitise our energy system and to harness

:22:41.:22:46.

these technologies. Those are immediate savings in terms of how

:22:47.:22:50.

much we save energy bills, but also gains in productivity as well. The

:22:51.:22:54.

head of the National Grid was on the BBC today programme last week, she

:22:55.:23:00.

was saying that we are seeing a smart energy revolution across the

:23:01.:23:02.

country, with adjustments reflecting Ben energy is cheapest. To most

:23:03.:23:09.

people, that means a bit of a nightmare, you have to change your

:23:10.:23:16.

consumption habits in order to meet the market. The reality is, we have

:23:17.:23:19.

many of the technologies in our homes already. Most major white

:23:20.:23:25.

goods malefactors are producing smart appliances already. They are

:23:26.:23:28.

in our shops and would probably have them in our homes. Through the

:23:29.:23:33.

Internet of things, they will start to speak to one another to make sure

:23:34.:23:36.

that they are operating at the time that is most efficient, most

:23:37.:23:40.

cost-effective. They are reporting faults so you don't carry on for

:23:41.:23:43.

years having a fridge that is using more power than it should because it

:23:44.:23:50.

has already flagged its faults to the manufacturer. It is not going to

:23:51.:23:57.

be a case of opting into them because they are building them as

:23:58.:24:00.

standard and will increasingly do so. There is a challenge, I think,

:24:01.:24:05.

for the Government in terms of preparing our homes and businesses

:24:06.:24:08.

and society for the Internet of things from an energy perspective. I

:24:09.:24:14.

have got some thoughts on Apple purchased before moving onto

:24:15.:24:17.

examples of where we are seeing huge economic advantages of those. The

:24:18.:24:21.

smart meter programme is the keystone in achieving this

:24:22.:24:27.

digitisation of our system. The front bench will be pushing that out

:24:28.:24:37.

as soon as possible. When we bring it into the energy space as others

:24:38.:24:45.

smart meat as being in place. Similarly, the way that our great is

:24:46.:24:54.

put together as we want to be able to speak in real-time about what it

:24:55.:25:03.

is it a -- what it is it is producing. At the moment,

:25:04.:25:08.

effectively, you have to pay for the energy twice, when it is generated

:25:09.:25:10.

and there when it is released from storage. That cannot be the case for

:25:11.:25:17.

much longer, surely. At distribution networks, the substations within at

:25:18.:25:21.

unity is, need to be capable of dealing with this more dynamic

:25:22.:25:27.

demand. The reality of clustered and aunt, particularly overnight, when

:25:28.:25:29.

people might be taking advantage of cheap energy in order to charge

:25:30.:25:33.

cards, but the washing machine through or have a tumble dryer

:25:34.:25:36.

running, heat that immersion tanks, all of those things. None of that

:25:37.:25:42.

will happen automatically without the Government paving the way.

:25:43.:25:45.

Thereafter, however, I'm sure that these technologies will find their

:25:46.:25:49.

place in the market by themselves. They will make life better and

:25:50.:25:53.

people will buy them as a result. Government does not need to

:25:54.:25:58.

encourage people every year to change their mobile phone. People

:25:59.:26:01.

just want to have the latest technology at their disposal. I'm

:26:02.:26:06.

sure that will be the case if the framework is created by government

:26:07.:26:10.

within energy policy to make sure that that can happen. On storage,

:26:11.:26:15.

the price of storage is ready coming down from 3000 dollars per

:26:16.:26:22.

kilowatt-hours to about 200 today. It will come down quicker cell. The

:26:23.:26:29.

factory in Colorado which they are accelerating the construction of

:26:30.:26:32.

quite rapidly, given the increase in demand. These are exciting times

:26:33.:26:36.

because storage is the key to flattening the supply curve of

:26:37.:26:41.

energy. Unlocking the real potential of renewables. But the real

:26:42.:26:45.

technological wizardry is demand-side response, which to many

:26:46.:26:49.

in the chamber will be a combination of words they might not have heard

:26:50.:26:55.

before. It needs to become forefront of the way we discuss energy.

:26:56.:27:00.

Flattening the supply curve is only part of the problem. Flattening the

:27:01.:27:10.

demand curve is equally important. I've been hugely impressed as I've

:27:11.:27:16.

become very and used an DSR and gone around various companies that are

:27:17.:27:22.

delivering it. By the scale of the savings it is bringing to

:27:23.:27:27.

businesses. Marriot hotels has signed up to a DSR contract which is

:27:28.:27:31.

saving hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. Aggregate industries

:27:32.:27:38.

used to just turn up in the morning and fire up the boilers to get the

:27:39.:27:43.

bitumen tanks up to heat. They would operate over the course of the day

:27:44.:27:47.

and then switch them off. They employed these technologies which

:27:48.:27:51.

said, our tolerance is we need to keep these tanks at a certain

:27:52.:27:55.

temperature and providing it is at that temperature, we will be able to

:27:56.:27:59.

release energy back to the grid, and so they do. They get money for

:28:00.:28:03.

nothing as a result because these technologies are being employed and

:28:04.:28:08.

they are able to sell back energy they don't need that they would have

:28:09.:28:12.

otherwise paid for and wasted, creating a huge saving for

:28:13.:28:18.

themselves. Sainsbury's supermarket, similarly, refrigeration is a

:28:19.:28:22.

massive cost for supermarkets and the food industry. Sainsbury's have

:28:23.:28:29.

employed DSR and from the store in my constituency in Street in

:28:30.:28:33.

Somerset they release electricity back to the grid. The other area

:28:34.:28:43.

that I wanted to touch on beyond DSR and storage is the electrification

:28:44.:28:47.

of the transport system. I've had to check carefully with the energy and

:28:48.:28:51.

climate change committee over whether I find myself in contempt of

:28:52.:28:57.

Parliament. This is a hugely exciting opportunity for us to

:28:58.:29:01.

employ electric cars and electric haulage systems in the UK. The

:29:02.:29:08.

problem is that I'm not sure we yet have the infrastructure in place to

:29:09.:29:12.

support them, nor am I sure that we have the fiscal structure right to

:29:13.:29:20.

support it either. I tried to buy an electric car over the summer and

:29:21.:29:23.

sadly the range of them was probably not quite enough to allow me to do

:29:24.:29:28.

my duties around my rear roll Somerset constituency. But they are

:29:29.:29:33.

getting there. And we just need to incentivise the acceleration of this

:29:34.:29:38.

technology so we get beyond the hundred mile range and get out to

:29:39.:29:44.

two, 300 miles. I think people will go for it quite quickly. The

:29:45.:29:50.

incentive is the government has in place is fantastic. The government's

:29:51.:30:01.

emphasis on putting out a charging infrastructure at motorway service

:30:02.:30:04.

stations is fantastic also, but we really need to grow this

:30:05.:30:07.

infrastructure much more if people are to buy these cars and make the

:30:08.:30:11.

saving they hope they will. The argument is that make a -- us more

:30:12.:30:20.

productive as well. Particularly when we go to autonomous cars and

:30:21.:30:25.

find we can move around much more freely. In the United States

:30:26.:30:29.

Coca-Cola has employed hydrogen electric hybrid vehicles for all of

:30:30.:30:35.

its fleet and it has made a 20% reduction on its fuel cost. That is

:30:36.:30:41.

a huge saving by employing those technologies, the electrification of

:30:42.:30:46.

their transport fleet. Which I think is something we should look across

:30:47.:30:50.

at to realise it's not just something you do if your green. This

:30:51.:30:56.

is something you do as an individual or a business if you want to reduce

:30:57.:31:02.

your operating costs. Technology colliding with energy generation,

:31:03.:31:07.

energy consumption to make us more efficient, more cost-effective and

:31:08.:31:11.

to make all of our operating costs that bit cheaper. Mr Speaker you

:31:12.:31:17.

encouraged us to stick within ten minutes so I will summarise without

:31:18.:31:23.

going into many more of my examples. The bottom line is that we will

:31:24.:31:29.

focus very much an hour infrastructure in terms of

:31:30.:31:36.

broadband, 5G mobile phones. We will worry about the preparedness of our

:31:37.:31:42.

airports, roads and rail. The energy infrastructure is just as important.

:31:43.:31:47.

In my view alongside the broadband and mobile phone networks it is

:31:48.:31:52.

those three sets of infrastructure, telecoms, broadband, energy, that

:31:53.:31:58.

will really drive the fourth, or third, Industrial Revolution

:31:59.:32:01.

forwards and allow us to harness these fantastic technologies. We

:32:02.:32:04.

should be seeking to do so not just because we are seeking to arrest

:32:05.:32:08.

climate change but because it is cost-effective and it makes business

:32:09.:32:12.

sense, will increase productivity and ultimately will be great for our

:32:13.:32:18.

economy. Can I first congratulate the honourable members for securing

:32:19.:32:24.

this crucially important debate. I am proud to represent the greatest

:32:25.:32:29.

city of the first Industrial Revolution. In Stoke-on-Trent we

:32:30.:32:35.

pioneered the modern ceramics industry. As visionaries like Josiah

:32:36.:32:40.

Wedgwood and Thomas Minton transformed the landscape with the

:32:41.:32:44.

pot banks and factories of a world conquering industry. The clay and

:32:45.:32:49.

coal beneath our feet fuelled a vast, dynamic economy and funded the

:32:50.:32:52.

great civic buildings and canal networks that still tanned Reed

:32:53.:32:57.

Kristan Testament. With last week 's news that Churchill China is

:32:58.:33:00.

planning to invest in new jobs in the city is a legacy that is very

:33:01.:33:09.

much alive this day. For my city and my constituents who have worked the

:33:10.:33:14.

clay for generations, the path to prosperity lies in the renewal of

:33:15.:33:17.

British industry and in the creation of a prosperous, balanced economy

:33:18.:33:25.

which utilises our country strengths, our creativity, technical

:33:26.:33:28.

acumen and knowledge gained from hundreds of years of craftsmanship.

:33:29.:33:33.

Advances in modern technology and material engineering present an

:33:34.:33:36.

opportunity to rebuild the local economy and celebrate a city far too

:33:37.:33:41.

often overlooked. As mentioned by my honourable friend the member for

:33:42.:33:47.

Hove, these new horizons are already visible in the ceramics industry.

:33:48.:33:51.

Where advances in material transformation mean ceramic

:33:52.:33:54.

technology could and should be utilised in new and extraordinary

:33:55.:34:01.

ways, from bone transplants, hip replacements to mobile transmitters

:34:02.:34:04.

and energy conductors. Trials have been done on lightweight ceramic

:34:05.:34:10.

body armour to protect the next generation of British Armed Forces.

:34:11.:34:15.

We now need to make these ambitions to reality for my constituents and

:34:16.:34:19.

laid the groundwork for a truly 21st-century ceramics industry.

:34:20.:34:25.

Plans for a new hub for Materials research in the city, the applied

:34:26.:34:31.

Materials research and innovation Centre are already underway,

:34:32.:34:37.

supported by MIT, Imperial College London and Cambridge University.

:34:38.:34:40.

Demonstrating Stoke-on-Trent and the UK are leading the way. This

:34:41.:34:46.

revolution has the potential to unleash extraordinary economic

:34:47.:34:49.

growth and to greatly improve our quality of life, and we must seize

:34:50.:34:53.

this opportunity to create an economy that works for everyone. We

:34:54.:34:57.

must harness these new technologies to bring new life into traditional

:34:58.:35:02.

industries, and need a renaissance in British manufacturing, and let us

:35:03.:35:07.

be clear. It is this and no less than this that is required. The

:35:08.:35:10.

Fourth Industrial Revolution holds the power to drive our country and

:35:11.:35:15.

our communities forward, to a Brave new world of scientific discovery,

:35:16.:35:19.

material comfort and sustained economic growth. I wish to sound a

:35:20.:35:25.

note of caution to those who assume that greater prosperity and

:35:26.:35:27.

opportunity are a foregone conclusion. We should not fear

:35:28.:35:31.

change but we must support our communities to adapt to new

:35:32.:35:35.

industries and new opportunities. Because with great change can come

:35:36.:35:40.

great people and economies can develop and adapt in ways we cannot

:35:41.:35:44.

always predict. There can be unforeseen consequences to an

:35:45.:35:48.

economic boom pursued without care. The true mark of a strong economy is

:35:49.:35:53.

that it allows each of us to live comfortably and well without hunger

:35:54.:35:59.

or want. When we lose the sight of that aim the result is even greater

:36:00.:36:03.

disparities in wealth and opportunity. Progress may be

:36:04.:36:08.

inevitable, but prosperity is not. It is our own actions that will

:36:09.:36:13.

determine whether the promise of this Fourth Industrial Revolution is

:36:14.:36:16.

realised, and whether its opportunities will be accessible to

:36:17.:36:21.

the many or to the few. The Fourth Industrial Revolution needs to be

:36:22.:36:26.

guided in such a way as to provide equality of opportunity and balanced

:36:27.:36:28.

regional investment. And its communities like mine in the

:36:29.:36:33.

post-industrial regions, long neglected by successive governments

:36:34.:36:37.

and lacking the resources to retrain and up skill our workforce, which

:36:38.:36:41.

could be hit hardest if we get this wrong. The challenges that we face

:36:42.:36:46.

is not only to capitalise on these new technologies but to ensure the

:36:47.:36:50.

rewards are distributed equitably, and that everyone has the chance to

:36:51.:36:56.

get ahead. That's why we need a government that provides businesses,

:36:57.:36:59.

workers and entrepreneurs with the support they need. For

:37:00.:37:03.

Stoke-on-Trent that means I'd coherent industrial strategy that

:37:04.:37:07.

plays to our strengths in ceramic manufacturing and engineering and

:37:08.:37:10.

supports us to develop the associated industries. Over the

:37:11.:37:14.

course of my first year in Parliament had been working with

:37:15.:37:18.

local employers, businesses and universities to do just that.

:37:19.:37:22.

Supported by the Staffordshire chamber of commerce we are working

:37:23.:37:26.

to develop a clear industrial strategy with a set of achievable

:37:27.:37:31.

goals to improve our infrastructure, tackle our skill shortages and

:37:32.:37:35.

secure the inward investment we desperately need. There is

:37:36.:37:38.

recognition throughout a city that a piecemeal approach to economic

:37:39.:37:42.

renewal is simply not enough. We need a long-term plan that sets out

:37:43.:37:46.

to tackle the particular obstacles we face. That means overcoming the

:37:47.:37:51.

challenges in skills and education and offering greater opportunities

:37:52.:37:55.

for our young people, not just in traditional trades but in digital

:37:56.:37:59.

technology, coding and advanced materials. I welcome the government

:38:00.:38:04.

's decision to lift the age cap on apprenticeships, to allow more

:38:05.:38:06.

people to learn new skills and traits. We must also work to open

:38:07.:38:10.

people's eyes to the many new industries being thrown open by the

:38:11.:38:15.

digital revolution. We also need a fresh commitment to lifelong

:38:16.:38:18.

learning so that people can learn new skills throughout their lives,

:38:19.:38:23.

and adapt to an ever more fluid labour market. So much potential is

:38:24.:38:29.

wasted because people are not being granted the opportunity to develop

:38:30.:38:31.

themselves through their working lives. Cities like Stoke-on-Trent

:38:32.:38:37.

also need investment in the critical infrastructure needed to grow our

:38:38.:38:42.

local economy, whether it be transport links or superfast

:38:43.:38:46.

broadband. Projects such as the ceramic valley enterprise zone are a

:38:47.:38:50.

welcome boost but I fear they are not sufficient to deliver a strong

:38:51.:38:56.

local economy in isolation. A full infrastructure evaluation in our

:38:57.:38:59.

northern and Midlands cities which show the government is committed to

:39:00.:39:02.

building an economy that works for every region and help to put flesh

:39:03.:39:06.

on the bones of the so-called Northern powerhouse. We need an

:39:07.:39:14.

industrial strategy that supports businesses, which want to expand to

:39:15.:39:16.

invest in new technology especially new ceramic technology, and support

:39:17.:39:20.

RND into new technologies as we saw with the breakthrough in graphene

:39:21.:39:24.

technology at Manchester University. Britain can and must lead the way in

:39:25.:39:31.

this new revolution. We must also in showed that it is spread evenly. The

:39:32.:39:37.

more as society changes the more people are at risk of being left

:39:38.:39:43.

behind. By investing in the skill and infrastructure we can overcome

:39:44.:39:46.

these challenges. That is why I would urge the government today not

:39:47.:39:50.

to sit back and let events take their course, invest in the skills,

:39:51.:39:54.

training and infrastructure we need right now, right across the country,

:39:55.:39:58.

to ensure everyone has the chance to fulfil their potential. We need to

:39:59.:40:03.

ensure the opportunities presented by the Fourth Industrial Revolution

:40:04.:40:07.

are open to all. We need a commitment from the government to

:40:08.:40:11.

invest in skills and education and particularly in adult education so

:40:12.:40:18.

that those whose jobs are at risk and by new employment, better paid

:40:19.:40:20.

employment in new industries. And we need a genuine industrial strategy

:40:21.:40:25.

that supports industry is the length and breadth of our country. Thank

:40:26.:40:35.

you very much indeed Mr Deputy Speaker. It's a pleasure to speak

:40:36.:40:41.

with you in the chair. Let me start by congratulating my honourable

:40:42.:40:44.

friend the member for haven't and the honourable member for Hove and

:40:45.:40:52.

Portslade for securing a debate on this important topic. According to

:40:53.:40:57.

the World Economic Forum, the Fourth Industrial Revolution is

:40:58.:41:00.

characterised by a range of new technologies that are fusing the

:41:01.:41:03.

physical, digital and biological worlds. It has, they say, the

:41:04.:41:11.

potential to transform and integrate products and services, to reshape

:41:12.:41:14.

radically the way in which things are made, the factories through

:41:15.:41:19.

which we make them and the ever more personal and customised uses to

:41:20.:41:24.

which they operate. This can many forms, be they new web applications,

:41:25.:41:29.

micro-robots, peer-to-peer services, advanced manufacturing or

:41:30.:41:34.

personalised medicines and cyber medical technologies. They can be

:41:35.:41:39.

leveraged by big data and better and more widespread digital activity.

:41:40.:41:42.

I want to speak today briefly about what I think this is about regarding

:41:43.:41:52.

these developments. Let me start by saying I'm quite sceptical about the

:41:53.:41:58.

language regarding the Fort industrial revolution. I share some

:41:59.:42:03.

of the scepticism of the members for Wales. Voltaire once sardonically

:42:04.:42:10.

remark that the Roman Empire was neither Roman nor an empire. I find

:42:11.:42:16.

this neither industrial nor a revolution. The original causes of

:42:17.:42:22.

the Industrial Revolution still rather contested. Was it the result

:42:23.:42:30.

of access to coal and high thermic value coal in particular? What it

:42:31.:42:37.

the result of spreading tray, the bourgeois virtues of thrift, hard

:42:38.:42:42.

work, tolerance and openness to other countries, all science and

:42:43.:42:45.

technology? These are still contested matters with historians.

:42:46.:42:52.

Some people say it's based on steam and then 150 years later,

:42:53.:42:59.

electricity. Where does it leave us now? We need to go to Adam Smith,

:43:00.:43:07.

and I was particularly glad that the member for Inverclyde highlighted

:43:08.:43:11.

the importance of Glasgow, since Adam Smith was Glasgow University's

:43:12.:43:18.

greatest professor, at a time when Glasgow University was one of the

:43:19.:43:22.

greatest in the world. Smith was wise on many fronts. He was a

:43:23.:43:28.

unionist. Above all, alongside human, he said union was a measure

:43:29.:43:35.

from which infant good has arrived to Scotland. He pointed to the

:43:36.:43:38.

importance of the division of labour. I want to point out in

:43:39.:43:44.

particular that there was a limit by the size of the market. You don't

:43:45.:43:48.

get porters in villages, and you wouldn't today get Uber in towns.

:43:49.:43:55.

The market isn't it enough. Change, I would suggest of the House, is by

:43:56.:44:01.

the same things that have always powered it. Bigger markets, net

:44:02.:44:07.

access to materials, better materials and the human appetite for

:44:08.:44:11.

risk and are requesting nature human imagination. It was one of my

:44:12.:44:20.

predecessors who pointed out the eight technologies on which the last

:44:21.:44:27.

Government founded its strategy on, from agriculture to satellites. I

:44:28.:44:32.

think we should talk about these rather than airily about

:44:33.:44:38.

revolutions. The point of view has been articulated very well by Robert

:44:39.:44:44.

Gordon who argued that there was a golden age, golden century of

:44:45.:44:52.

innovation between 1870-1970, time and transformation through

:44:53.:45:00.

innovative technologies, and as John Okada said, for someone born when

:45:01.:45:06.

engine in Disraeli was Prime Minister, Benjamin Heath would have

:45:07.:45:10.

seen horse-drawn give way to cars and aircraft. Medical devices,

:45:11.:45:17.

services that were nonexistent, replaced in the queues for

:45:18.:45:22.

infectious diseases, as well as colour television, indoor plumbing

:45:23.:45:29.

and electricity. Paul Voelker has pointed out that the greatest

:45:30.:45:37.

technology has been ATM. If anyone knows anything about finance, they

:45:38.:45:41.

will have a great sympathy with that technology. These technologies have

:45:42.:45:46.

shaped us, and Gordon says that capacity for transformative

:45:47.:45:53.

innovation has slowed. We have upgrades but not life transforming

:45:54.:45:55.

breakthroughs, like the washing machine. Things that are shaped

:45:56.:46:03.

peoples lives. Low growth, low productivity. However I do not share

:46:04.:46:09.

this pessimism. What matters to me is capacity to risk, the ability to

:46:10.:46:19.

work. Imagination. I would like to mention two projects I have been

:46:20.:46:24.

associated with. The new modelling technology and engineering. The

:46:25.:46:33.

first completely new university for decades. In Hereford, with a

:46:34.:46:39.

curriculum along the lines of liberal engineering, tying the

:46:40.:46:42.

liberal engineering to the arts and sciences required to create

:46:43.:46:51.

innovation. Problem -based, not all based on curricula. 46 week

:46:52.:47:01.

curriculum linking to colleges in America and Warwick and Bristol

:47:02.:47:06.

here. It's not just an important local institution, its potentially a

:47:07.:47:12.

disruptively national institution and could do enormous amount to

:47:13.:47:21.

assist the technologies today. It's a not for profit car my father has

:47:22.:47:26.

designed. A flat pack vehicle. Let me tell you, you may be surprised.

:47:27.:47:32.

Even you with your astonishing breadth of understanding and

:47:33.:47:38.

knowledge, this is a vehicle that can be assembled by three people in

:47:39.:47:43.

a day from a flat pack. It weighs... It costs a third of the price of a

:47:44.:47:55.

luxury 4x4 and carries three times the weight. Under ?20,000. To get

:47:56.:48:02.

that simplicity, you had to refit design and engineering. What I think

:48:03.:48:06.

that brings out is that it doesn't require... Great innovation does not

:48:07.:48:13.

require the highest form of technology. Simpler --

:48:14.:48:24.

simplification can change things. Let's turn now to our own situation.

:48:25.:48:33.

Policies that support enterprises have been rightly highlighted.

:48:34.:48:41.

Manufacturing companies in this country are overwhelmingly employers

:48:42.:48:47.

are 50 people or over and these firms count for half of

:48:48.:48:51.

manufacturing employment. Small and medium sized enterprises will be the

:48:52.:48:55.

blood of change as they are today. blood of change as they are today.

:48:56.:49:03.

Very versatile in their manufacturing -- Manufacturing, able

:49:04.:49:08.

to move on their feet, produce despite products using new materials

:49:09.:49:15.

and revolutionary techniques of 3-D printing, assisted computer design.

:49:16.:49:23.

I hope members are already aware of Innovate Uk. They run competitions,

:49:24.:49:32.

funding competitions to find the best technology. They are the best

:49:33.:49:38.

for getting this market ready. There is also the Heinemann -- high-value

:49:39.:49:45.

manufacturing catapulted for which supports manufacturers, small

:49:46.:49:50.

manufacturers to adopt new technologies. 300 million has been

:49:51.:49:54.

invested in a factory through that means. Over the last years, the high

:49:55.:50:02.

value manufacturing catapulted has worked for 160 private sector

:50:03.:50:11.

clients on 1300 projects and 18 small and medium enterprise

:50:12.:50:14.

engagements. This in particular has the equipment to support the

:50:15.:50:19.

adoption of advanced technologies, using virtual modelling. It can help

:50:20.:50:23.

businesses understand what tech can do for them without having to go

:50:24.:50:27.

down that path to plan and eliminate risks. There are several projects,

:50:28.:50:45.

Smart City Developer, Manchester. There are some very interesting

:50:46.:50:50.

collaborations for this model support between the public and

:50:51.:50:55.

private sectors, and what it is offering. It is a virtuous circle

:50:56.:51:00.

and one that the Government wants to see greatly repeated and replicated.

:51:01.:51:04.

We want to increase access and awareness to these catapulted to

:51:05.:51:11.

that more small businesses can get new market opportunities. I'm

:51:12.:51:18.

grateful for the Minister to giving way. I find it incredible that

:51:19.:51:24.

someone who's never shopped at IKEA could know anything about a flat

:51:25.:51:29.

pack car that you could put together in a day. Does he think there is

:51:30.:51:38.

merit in these catapulted, linking them to industrial materials for

:51:39.:51:41.

products and services that are being developed in the parts of the

:51:42.:51:46.

heartlands talked about by my right honourable friend. I take the point

:51:47.:51:51.

very much. The only way I think we can think about this flat pack car

:51:52.:51:58.

is that it is the product of three years of development from the senior

:51:59.:52:05.

executives at McLaren. On the issue of linking to industry, I think it's

:52:06.:52:10.

absolutely right. One of the things about the catapulted is that they

:52:11.:52:13.

have proved to be a flexible form, and there's no reason why that

:52:14.:52:20.

flexibility can't be used to create even closer linkages. As he knows,

:52:21.:52:31.

there was a value debt between businesses, development, and

:52:32.:52:38.

academia. Let me round up by thanking colleagues and

:52:39.:52:41.

congratulating them for this debate which I think has been extremely

:52:42.:52:45.

wise and intelligent. As a Government, we want to be at the

:52:46.:52:49.

forefront of the changes that are being discussed here, the landscape

:52:50.:52:56.

of our industry and our commerce, the way it is continuing. We want to

:52:57.:53:03.

lead the fourth as we lead the first. Through this new department

:53:04.:53:09.

for business, strategy and energy, with a criteria that will be laid

:53:10.:53:15.

out over the next few months. I'd like to join with colleagues and

:53:16.:53:23.

bank the honourable member and for those who have worked to make this

:53:24.:53:32.

debate today. I worked at the World Economic Forum from 2009 to 2012.

:53:33.:53:42.

One of the things on the agenda was the Davos meeting. This wants to be

:53:43.:53:47.

characterised by new forms of renewable energy, outward expansion

:53:48.:53:54.

of technology gym by the Internet. It's a revolution that will take

:53:55.:54:01.

place as we face severe challenges to our economic future. Trade

:54:02.:54:08.

deficit in our country is difficult, there is greatly reduced job

:54:09.:54:11.

security, overconcentration on London as a source of wealth and

:54:12.:54:16.

growth in the country at the Spencer for the regions. Overreliance on the

:54:17.:54:21.

service industries with a low share of manufacturing in terms of share

:54:22.:54:25.

of GDP. Manufacturing been soaked Croatia YouTube broadly shared

:54:26.:54:33.

wealth -- manufacturing been so important in terms of broadly shared

:54:34.:54:39.

wealth. That lies at the heart of many of the difficulties in terms of

:54:40.:54:42.

the unbalanced nature of the British economy. In the aftermath of the EU

:54:43.:54:48.

referendum, each of these challenges is exacerbate it by the uncertainty

:54:49.:54:53.

that our economy faces regarding Brexit. With -- we don't know what

:54:54.:54:59.

our trading relationship will be with our largest market and we may

:55:00.:55:03.

not know for some time. The fourth Industrial Revolution which could

:55:04.:55:10.

transform the way we live could be dependent on our economically --

:55:11.:55:11.

economy. As the economy is further limited to

:55:12.:55:33.

services... Will we use this for Industrial Revolution to transform,

:55:34.:55:37.

brighten our economic future for all our people. Can its fusion of

:55:38.:55:43.

digital technology, intelligence and activity shape a new economy with

:55:44.:55:47.

new models of manufacturing, labour relations and skills' development to

:55:48.:55:54.

create jobs that raise living standards and allow us to trade with

:55:55.:56:00.

the new ways. Can it help us to realise our values in society and in

:56:01.:56:04.

our everyday lives? The answers to those questions is what we make it.

:56:05.:56:12.

We must shape and lead the fourth Industrial Revolution so that it

:56:13.:56:16.

delivers the society and the economy that we want for people all across

:56:17.:56:20.

our country. It requires a Government with a vision of what a

:56:21.:56:25.

fourth Industrial Revolution should look like in order to allow us to

:56:26.:56:30.

deliver the outcomes that we need. The Government that has an

:56:31.:56:34.

industrial strategy that helps us to get there, a Government that takes

:56:35.:56:38.

action, control of our future. This will mean a strategy and plan to

:56:39.:56:45.

build a new manufacturing sector that creates world leading products

:56:46.:56:47.

but also delivers a It will require matching or

:56:48.:57:02.

exceeding oh ECD levels of investment in research and

:57:03.:57:06.

development, which is the source of future sustainable growth and

:57:07.:57:11.

industry. As part of this, we must continue her rise in 2020 funding

:57:12.:57:15.

which does so much to catalyse University research and innovation

:57:16.:57:18.

and transform it into market products. The government has

:57:19.:57:22.

promised to match Horizon funding until 2020 but even in a fast as

:57:23.:57:29.

possible Brexit scenario that's only one year of matched funding. We must

:57:30.:57:32.

commit for longer to give universities and innovators the

:57:33.:57:36.

confidence they need, especially in the face of Brexit fuelled

:57:37.:57:41.

uncertainty, to develop the ideas that will inspire and drive our

:57:42.:57:45.

future in the Fourth Industrial Revolution. As well as providing

:57:46.:57:50.

this foundation for the catalysts of the Fourth Industrial Revolution,

:57:51.:57:54.

government must protect its fruits. Protecting British business,

:57:55.:57:58.

manufacturing and supply change. We cannot afford to be hands-off and

:57:59.:58:03.

allow a world-class tech business to be sold to the Japanese. We cannot

:58:04.:58:09.

run a successful growing economy and secured the investment it needs if

:58:10.:58:12.

we allow our crown jewels to be sold off. Just in the last year I've seen

:58:13.:58:18.

the huge difference in impact between a hands-off approach and one

:58:19.:58:22.

that is active. The British steel industry so important in my

:58:23.:58:26.

constituency has been failed time and time again by our government.

:58:27.:58:31.

The government didn't act to stop this state subsidised dumping of

:58:32.:58:38.

Chinese steel when it could have done. The government did not

:58:39.:58:43.

encourage investment or profitability in keeping a

:58:44.:58:47.

regressive business rates regime and uncompetitive energy prices. And yet

:58:48.:58:52.

when the government and the state does step up to provide a future

:58:53.:58:56.

foundation for our success, British talent... He mentions the sale of

:58:57.:59:05.

armed holdings to Softbank. Yesterday we saw the announcement of

:59:06.:59:11.

Micro Focus, a UK business buying a significant business offer, does he

:59:12.:59:22.

think we should be able to buy businesses but not sell them? In my

:59:23.:59:28.

view we need a reform of the companies act which places a clear

:59:29.:59:33.

national interest clause and a method of monitoring that clause so

:59:34.:59:39.

that we move away from the situation such as we saw with Pfizer

:59:40.:59:44.

attempting to take AstraZeneca. I'm thankful that the previous Leader of

:59:45.:59:50.

the Opposition did a great job in terms of preventing that from

:59:51.:59:57.

happening. We need a national strategy to protect our national

:59:58.:00:04.

assets particularly when they drive the entire economy and drive the

:00:05.:00:09.

Fourth Industrial Revolution. We have a remarkable company called

:00:10.:00:20.

Specific which is developing steel cased coatings for buildings which

:00:21.:00:25.

can generate and store its own electricity. And it works. We

:00:26.:00:30.

already have an industrial site in Port Talbot which has been

:00:31.:00:33.

generating its heat through solar power for three years. All of this

:00:34.:00:38.

is done thanks to a partnership between business universities...

:00:39.:00:42.

That's where we are leaving the live coverage of the Commons to go to

:00:43.:00:46.

Philip Hammond's first appearance before a parliamentary committee.

:00:47.:00:50.

You can continue watching business in the Commons on our website and we

:00:51.:00:54.

will return to the chamber after the committee has finished. To inform

:00:55.:00:59.

Parliament

:01:00.:01:01.

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