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In order. Before we begin proceedings, may I place on the | :00:10. | :00:17. | |
record that if you minutes `go we observed a one-minute silence in | :00:18. | :00:21. | |
remembrance of those who lost their lives in the Aberfan disastdr 5 | :00:22. | :00:30. | |
years ago. I beg to move th`t the House to sit in private. Thd | :00:31. | :00:38. | |
question is that the House set in private. As many supported say aye. | :00:39. | :00:48. | |
I think the noes have it. Ldt's see if we can make a little progress. | :00:49. | :00:56. | |
Sexual offences, pardons et Bill, second reading. Thank you vdry much | :00:57. | :01:09. | |
indeed Mr Speaker, Sir, it hs a great pleasure to move this motion | :01:10. | :01:15. | |
and to work so many members of the House to their places. Mr Ddputy | :01:16. | :01:19. | |
Speaker, when I was born in the 1960s, two men who... I don't say | :01:20. | :01:32. | |
which end of the 1960s. Two men who were in love could be sent to prison | :01:33. | :01:37. | |
for what they chose to do in the privacy of their own homes. It is | :01:38. | :01:43. | |
hard now to fathom the mindset of those who defended such gross | :01:44. | :01:45. | |
intrusion into the lives and rights of others. Yet, when one re`ds the | :01:46. | :01:54. | |
speeches in this place at the time of the 1967 decriminalisation Act, | :01:55. | :01:58. | |
many members here presumed to tell fellow citizens who did good and who | :01:59. | :02:02. | |
they could not love, often coaching the speeches in the most prtrient | :02:03. | :02:09. | |
and sometimes lascivious terms. So, it went on. Even after | :02:10. | :02:13. | |
decriminalisation, numerous homophobic laws remained on the | :02:14. | :02:19. | |
statute book, laws which only existed to enshrine inequalhty, | :02:20. | :02:22. | |
ensuring that gay men could never enjoy the full fruits of eqtal | :02:23. | :02:29. | |
citizenship. When I was a student at Glasgow University, the student | :02:30. | :02:32. | |
union banned the university gay society from holding its medtings | :02:33. | :02:36. | |
and dances on its premises `nd the gay students could do absolttely | :02:37. | :02:40. | |
nothing about that because there was no equality protection under the | :02:41. | :02:46. | |
law. When I left university and applied for a job in the civil | :02:47. | :02:49. | |
service and the diplomatic service, I had to sign an affidavit | :02:50. | :02:54. | |
confirming that I was not g`y. I wouldn't do that and therefore I | :02:55. | :03:01. | |
could not qualify for the post. In the 1980s, the tabloids scrdamed | :03:02. | :03:06. | |
abuse about gay men and AIDS. It was routine to conflict homosextality | :03:07. | :03:11. | |
with paedophilia. Small wonder then that it was hard to come out as gay. | :03:12. | :03:18. | |
I found it tough. I came from a modest Presbyterians background I | :03:19. | :03:22. | |
went to church every Sunday, and went to Sunday school, I went to the | :03:23. | :03:28. | |
Crusaders. I prayed not to be gay. At school, gay was the worst time | :03:29. | :03:36. | |
possible. There were gay waxs of throwing a ball. Then there were | :03:37. | :03:40. | |
strict ways of throwing a b`ll. He had to be very sure which w`s which | :03:41. | :03:45. | |
and my honourable friend from Glasgow South lives in a cldar | :03:46. | :03:53. | |
recognition. Now, we had few if any role models. Larry Grayson `nd John | :03:54. | :03:57. | |
Inman were staples of the tdlevision on a Saturday night. They wdre TV | :03:58. | :04:04. | |
stars and fitted the gay TV stereotype. Comic characters, single | :04:05. | :04:11. | |
and in denial about who thex were. The future, as a young gay boy, | :04:12. | :04:16. | |
didn't look promising. Who would want to be gay in a country where | :04:17. | :04:20. | |
you had to hide where you work, like if you want to do certain jobs? In | :04:21. | :04:26. | |
fact, lie if you wanted to keep your job. It was legal to sack someone | :04:27. | :04:31. | |
simply because he discovered that they were gay. You could refuse to | :04:32. | :04:36. | |
rent a house to a gay person, you could arrest a gay couple if they | :04:37. | :04:40. | |
shared a hotel room because the law did not recognise hotel rools as | :04:41. | :04:46. | |
private spaces. Perhaps, and here we come to the crux of the deb`te, most | :04:47. | :04:51. | |
horrifyingly of all, you cotld arrest a 21-year-old man for | :04:52. | :04:55. | |
sleeping with his 20-year-old boyfriend and the 21-year-old could | :04:56. | :05:00. | |
be tried, convicted and sentenced for under age sex. As a young | :05:01. | :05:07. | |
journalist, I made a field ,- a film about how the law discrimin`ted | :05:08. | :05:11. | |
against gay men. It was I who took Edwina Currie to Amsterdam `t a time | :05:12. | :05:15. | |
when she wasn't interested hn the subject and I wanted to confront | :05:16. | :05:22. | |
with the full horrors of gax law reform and inequality. She came back | :05:23. | :05:28. | |
a changed character. It was perhaps a couple of the clubs I took her to. | :05:29. | :05:35. | |
She came back determined to reform the law because she had seen the way | :05:36. | :05:38. | |
that gay law reform could work in practice. In that film, I | :05:39. | :05:44. | |
interviewed military personnel with exemplary records who had bden | :05:45. | :05:49. | |
followed home by the military police determined to investigate a tip off | :05:50. | :05:55. | |
that the personnel concerned, the soldier, the enforcement, the naval | :05:56. | :06:00. | |
officer, was the thing priv`tely with a same-sex partner. Interviewed | :06:01. | :06:04. | |
they could be disciplined if they lied. Of course, they could be | :06:05. | :06:09. | |
sacked and were sacked, if they told the truth. Damp whatever choice they | :06:10. | :06:15. | |
made. It wasn't until the 1890s that the European Court, the grotp | :06:16. | :06:21. | |
setting itself, overturned this ban in the teeth of military opposition. | :06:22. | :06:26. | |
Military men hit the airwavds to predict the collapse of the British | :06:27. | :06:30. | |
Navy where such behaviour h`d previously never been known. Nelson, | :06:31. | :06:44. | |
it seemed, had never been khssed. Across the pond, Colin Powell was | :06:45. | :06:51. | |
shamefully urging PC nonsense. He claimed that strip soldiers would | :06:52. | :06:55. | |
never share a shower with g`y soldiers they knew their trte | :06:56. | :07:01. | |
nature, much better to hide and share a shower if you follow Mr | :07:02. | :07:08. | |
Powell's logic. I don't. In my documentary I interviewed g`y men | :07:09. | :07:12. | |
who had been trapped by so-called pretty policeman and a interviewed | :07:13. | :07:18. | |
Chief Constable Anderton of Manchester, delivered of thd | :07:19. | :07:24. | |
tabloids as God's copper, hd sat at his desk and defended the practice | :07:25. | :07:29. | |
of sending out attractive young male police officers who would ghve gay | :07:30. | :07:33. | |
men the eye and if the gay lan responded, he would be arrested and | :07:34. | :07:38. | |
his life ruined. Since I announced this Bill I have had letters from | :07:39. | :07:43. | |
people who have told me of their exact experience of being entrapped | :07:44. | :07:48. | |
by police officers and how ht ruined their life. This entrapment was a | :07:49. | :07:53. | |
police priority in one of the biggest cities in the country in the | :07:54. | :08:00. | |
1990s. It is hard to fathom, because it was a disgrace. Gay men were not | :08:01. | :08:04. | |
free at home or at work. Thdy are not protected by law. They were | :08:05. | :08:11. | |
under sustained attack by the law. I felt myself to be lucky. I had | :08:12. | :08:15. | |
support from friends and a loving family and a good job. I cale out | :08:16. | :08:20. | |
and have never regretted dohng so. Goodness knows I am now a mdmber of | :08:21. | :08:26. | |
the gayest pardon in Parlialent Just look at them. | :08:27. | :08:43. | |
I think a heterosexual has just come out of the closet. Our very gayness | :08:44. | :08:56. | |
has come as you know, made Westminster at the gayest p`rliament | :08:57. | :09:08. | |
in the world. I am just looking over there at the gentleman in the wake | :09:09. | :09:19. | |
and wondering how he is reacting. He has left, in fact. But Mr Ddputy | :09:20. | :09:29. | |
Speaker, I will never forget the men in the documentary I presented for | :09:30. | :09:33. | |
the BBC and the ruined lives, lives scarred by a bitter sense of | :09:34. | :09:39. | |
injustice. So, when I was chosen top of this ballot, I saw in it a golden | :09:40. | :09:44. | |
opportunity. Society had moved on. We are now horrified by the | :09:45. | :09:48. | |
inequalities of the past. Whth syringe when we read the holophobic | :09:49. | :09:53. | |
rantings of some of our predecessors in this place. We believe that gay | :09:54. | :09:58. | |
service personnel should serve. We believe that being gay should be no | :09:59. | :10:09. | |
bar to a career in the diplomatic service or any other servicd. We | :10:10. | :10:12. | |
believe that gay couples should be able to share a bed in a hotel. That | :10:13. | :10:15. | |
gay kids should not be harassed and bullied at school, but Chief | :10:16. | :10:17. | |
constables should not send out officers to entrapped citizdns and | :10:18. | :10:20. | |
we believe the age of consent should be equal. Looking across thd House, | :10:21. | :10:26. | |
I know there is consensus about that in this place, just as therd is in | :10:27. | :10:30. | |
society. We don't want thesd prejudices for our future, but what | :10:31. | :10:36. | |
about those living with unf`ir convictions from our past? How do we | :10:37. | :10:42. | |
address the grievances, how do we address the injustices they | :10:43. | :10:47. | |
suffered? What about men, for instance, if you were 21 and had a | :10:48. | :10:53. | |
boyfriend of 20? I detailed some of those cases for my document`ry. All | :10:54. | :11:00. | |
of us, as diligent MPs, havd had mail from people who found | :11:01. | :11:03. | |
themselves in those circumstances. What about those men of 21 who found | :11:04. | :11:06. | |
themselves arrested, tried `nd Underage sex, just think about what | :11:07. | :11:16. | |
that means to have that on xour record. With a man who is pdrhaps | :11:17. | :11:21. | |
only a few months younger than you were. A consensual relationship with | :11:22. | :11:26. | |
a contemporary, with a contdmporary old enough to serve in the lilitary, | :11:27. | :11:32. | |
old enough to drive a car, holding off legally to have a child of four | :11:33. | :11:36. | |
but regarded by the homophobic laws at the moment is a 20-year-old | :11:37. | :11:42. | |
child, unable to give consent. That's 21-year-old with a criminal | :11:43. | :11:49. | |
conviction has had to endurd perhaps the decades and unfettered ,- | :11:50. | :12:00. | |
untaken fiction for underagd sex. Stonewall had a solution, the | :12:01. | :12:09. | |
touring the macro Turing bill, named after Alan Tampa. Mr Turing may have | :12:10. | :12:14. | |
been hailed by Churchill but that did not prevent him being charged as | :12:15. | :12:19. | |
a homosexual and being chemhcally castrated. Shameful. He comlitted | :12:20. | :12:26. | |
suicide as a result. In his honour, Stonewall wants the gay men living | :12:27. | :12:32. | |
with convictions for crimes no longer on the statute book to be | :12:33. | :12:35. | |
pardoned, and I couldn't thhnk of a more noble build the pilot through | :12:36. | :12:39. | |
Parliament. With all friends on all sides of the house, I have felt that | :12:40. | :12:44. | |
the bill would attract all-party support, and indeed it did `nd I | :12:45. | :12:49. | |
thank those who supported it. So when I was approached by thd Tory | :12:50. | :12:52. | |
whips and asked if I would take on this bill, I was delighted to do so. | :12:53. | :12:58. | |
The Conservative whips asked me for a meeting and promised me that if I | :12:59. | :13:03. | |
took up the Turing bill, thdre would be, and I quote them exactlx, no | :13:04. | :13:10. | |
tricks and no games from our side. I felt as if I was in an episode of | :13:11. | :13:20. | |
House of Cards. The Right Honourable member for Surrey Heath was the | :13:21. | :13:23. | |
Justice Secretary at the tile. He promised me the full support of the | :13:24. | :13:28. | |
justice department. And I h`ve worked closely with Stonewall on | :13:29. | :13:33. | |
this Bill. Let me tell you what this bill does and what this bill does | :13:34. | :13:38. | |
not do. It does provide a blanket pardon for any gay man convhcted of | :13:39. | :13:43. | |
a crime which is no longer ` crime. Now the meaning of that is patently | :13:44. | :13:49. | |
obvious. If the crime for which you were convicted is still a crime by | :13:50. | :13:57. | |
definition you are not pardoned So let nobody be confused about that. | :13:58. | :14:03. | |
The aim of this simple meastre I think is obvious. The pardon confers | :14:04. | :14:08. | |
no immediate advantage, excdpt this: it will come I hope, bring closure | :14:09. | :14:16. | |
to those men who have had to have monstrous unfair convictions for | :14:17. | :14:20. | |
decades. They may have had to hide these convictions from family and | :14:21. | :14:29. | |
friends. It may have prevented them from getting a job, but with my | :14:30. | :14:35. | |
touring Bill pardon, societx acknowledges that a gross injustice | :14:36. | :14:46. | |
was done in spent. There max also be some who want something mord. Some | :14:47. | :14:49. | |
will feel that they should not be offered a pardon for somethhng that | :14:50. | :14:53. | |
was never wrong in the first place, and for those men I offer an | :14:54. | :14:56. | |
additional option, should they choose it. They will be abld to have | :14:57. | :15:02. | |
their name expunged from thd records. However, and this hs | :15:03. | :15:06. | |
important, and many members have raised this with me, the records are | :15:07. | :15:15. | |
often imprecise. Often, thex were catch all arrests, where thd police | :15:16. | :15:20. | |
would not specify the detail. So where the records are imprecise | :15:21. | :15:23. | |
where it is unclear whether the underage party was 20, 19, 08, 7, | :15:24. | :15:31. | |
16, crucially 15-15 younger, the onus will be on the applicant to | :15:32. | :15:36. | |
prove the age of his partner at the time of the arrest. Now, as a result | :15:37. | :15:44. | |
of this, some men may not bd able to have their records expunged because | :15:45. | :15:48. | |
they are unable to provide the necessary proof, even though the | :15:49. | :15:55. | |
partner was over today's agd of consent. That would be deeply | :15:56. | :15:59. | |
frustrating for them, I recognise that, however this provision | :16:00. | :16:02. | |
absolutely satisfies the concerns raised that we must be rigorous in | :16:03. | :16:08. | |
ensuring that only those who benefit not only those who benefit from | :16:09. | :16:11. | |
these measures, and all the legal advice I have taken leaves le | :16:12. | :16:19. | |
satisfied that this Bill absolutely addresses that concern, and is as | :16:20. | :16:24. | |
watertight as it is possibld to be, under the circumstances. Stonewall | :16:25. | :16:27. | |
believes that only small nulbers of men will avail themselves of this | :16:28. | :16:30. | |
provision of a second provision of my bill. Many of the men affected | :16:31. | :16:35. | |
our old, and these matters `re far in their past and perhaps a secret. | :16:36. | :16:41. | |
The requirements I'm imposing would be time-consuming and perhaps | :16:42. | :16:46. | |
distressing for them to sathsfy They will, I believe, Stonewall | :16:47. | :16:50. | |
believes, be satisfied with my automatic pardon. They will not seek | :16:51. | :16:55. | |
to have the details expunged manually from their record. Now if | :16:56. | :17:00. | |
you'll forgive me Mr Deputy Speaker, I want to get back to that no tricks | :17:01. | :17:04. | |
and no games promise, because I think it is important, becatse we | :17:05. | :17:10. | |
may not be planning to stay in this house for very long, but other | :17:11. | :17:16. | |
members present are passion`te about Westminster, and want Westmhnster to | :17:17. | :17:21. | |
succeed, so nothing that we should do in procedural terms, surdly, | :17:22. | :17:25. | |
should bring this house into disrepute, when we know certain | :17:26. | :17:32. | |
words like filibuster, shocked and horrified ordinary members of the | :17:33. | :17:36. | |
public who think it is appalling. I was hoping for an interventhon and | :17:37. | :17:43. | |
at last one came, thank you. I thank the Honourable member for allowing | :17:44. | :17:46. | |
me to intervene so early in the debate, and congratulate hil on | :17:47. | :17:49. | |
doing all he was doing to r`ise the profile of this very import`nt issue | :17:50. | :17:54. | |
in public. The real question today that we need the answer is how can | :17:55. | :17:58. | |
we deliver justice in the qtickest, fairest way to those who have | :17:59. | :18:02. | |
suffered the humiliation of conviction under archaic laws. | :18:03. | :18:07. | |
Yesterday, the government announced that we would answer this qtestion | :18:08. | :18:09. | |
with a legislative vehicle that would provide a pardon for those | :18:10. | :18:14. | |
people within a few months. This delivers on the manifesto commitment | :18:15. | :18:17. | |
but it also has cross-party support. It will be an amendment brotght | :18:18. | :18:23. | |
forward by a Liberal Democr`t peer and the Labour leader Jeremx Corbyn | :18:24. | :18:27. | |
yesterday called the move a great victory for Paul who have c`mpaigned | :18:28. | :18:31. | |
for this wrong. So as well `s honouring the dead... If yot would | :18:32. | :18:38. | |
hear me out, please? As well as honouring the dead, the Honourable | :18:39. | :18:41. | |
member seeks a pardon for the living, we have developed a way to | :18:42. | :18:46. | |
do this without giving a perception that the pardon covers perpdtrators | :18:47. | :18:51. | |
of sex with a minor or non-conceptual sex. What I would | :18:52. | :18:57. | |
like to do today is to make a full and open offer to the Honourable | :18:58. | :19:02. | |
member to work with officials in the Ministry of Justice and the Home | :19:03. | :19:06. | |
Office and Stonewall to givd real effect to this pardon for the dead | :19:07. | :19:11. | |
and the living, as fairly and quickly as possible. So I ask him to | :19:12. | :19:15. | |
withdraw this bill and support the amendment that has cross-party | :19:16. | :19:19. | |
support in this house and the other place to resolve an injustice that | :19:20. | :19:24. | |
the too long has been left unchallenged. I would like to thank | :19:25. | :19:28. | |
the Minister and of course H accepted your off back in Jtne. Your | :19:29. | :19:33. | |
government's offer back in June so we have had plenty of time to chat | :19:34. | :19:39. | |
about this, and I have to s`y that standing up and proposing an offer | :19:40. | :19:42. | |
of cooperation on the morning of my debate might be regarded as leaving | :19:43. | :19:47. | |
it somewhat late for us to have a further private chat, but it's | :19:48. | :19:51. | |
crucial for the Honourable lember who shakes his head and says not my | :19:52. | :19:54. | |
offer and he obviously didn't know anything about it. But I can assure | :19:55. | :19:58. | |
you that I have been talking with members of the government, on and | :19:59. | :20:04. | |
off, since June. So yesterd`y, the government, as you know, as you just | :20:05. | :20:08. | |
said, accepted an amendment to the policing bill in the Lords `nd | :20:09. | :20:12. | |
claimed that it was the Turhng bill. It isn't. Even though some rather | :20:13. | :20:18. | |
obliging news outlets have trumpeted their claim after reading the press | :20:19. | :20:23. | |
releases. Now I will leave ht to memos of a house to decide whether | :20:24. | :20:26. | |
it's fair to try and attempt to hijack my bill some 36 hours before | :20:27. | :20:34. | |
its second reading in this place. The private member build process is | :20:35. | :20:38. | |
after all intended to allow those of us not in government to seek to | :20:39. | :20:41. | |
leave a legacy of legislation, which we believe is good, kind and | :20:42. | :20:49. | |
worthwhile. And I believe that this bill is kind. The amendment accepted | :20:50. | :20:53. | |
by the government would grant an automatic pardon to the decdased | :20:54. | :20:58. | |
honour if I understand it correctly. And yet the minister says hd is very | :20:59. | :21:04. | |
concerned that the Bill's rdvisions would be misused, because some | :21:05. | :21:09. | |
people who behaved improperly would get under the radar, and wotld get | :21:10. | :21:14. | |
pardons that they are not entitled to. If he thinks it's hard to | :21:15. | :21:19. | |
enforce that with the living, imagine, by his own logic, how much | :21:20. | :21:22. | |
harder it is to enforce that with the dead. So there is an | :21:23. | :21:26. | |
intellectual incoherence. You can shake your head but there is an | :21:27. | :21:30. | |
intellectual incoherence at the heart of what you are proposing And | :21:31. | :21:33. | |
I fear that you haven't really thought it through. And I know that, | :21:34. | :21:39. | |
because I have been told in the cause of this bill, that I would | :21:40. | :21:42. | |
need government support, th`t I wouldn't get government support | :21:43. | :21:45. | |
then I would get government support, then I might get government support. | :21:46. | :21:49. | |
I'm afraid the Conservative government has been all over the | :21:50. | :21:53. | |
place on this, and I was very keen for this not to be a party political | :21:54. | :22:01. | |
issue. And at no point have I gone into the press or given intdrviews | :22:02. | :22:04. | |
in which I refer to this as an SNP measure. I did not. And in fact as | :22:05. | :22:10. | |
you know, it's an English mdasure, so that those who criticise the SNP | :22:11. | :22:14. | |
and say it is overly concerned with the Constitution and Scottish | :22:15. | :22:17. | |
issues, here's something th`t tackles and English injustice. And I | :22:18. | :22:25. | |
was keen to do so, I won't thank you, on a cross-party basis, and I | :22:26. | :22:30. | |
would think because there wdre so many things shoes from the | :22:31. | :22:33. | |
Conservative Party and the Labour Party when I put forward my bill | :22:34. | :22:36. | |
rather proves this. -- so m`ny signatories. Thank you very much, Mr | :22:37. | :22:47. | |
Deputy Speaker. Thank you. The Honourable member, and can H commend | :22:48. | :22:51. | |
him in the Tony has brought to the speech today, but you said Dnglish | :22:52. | :22:56. | |
only. As a Welsh MP, it's in linen and Wales, so can I remind xou of | :22:57. | :23:01. | |
that country, tagged on in xour opinion, to England and perhaps | :23:02. | :23:05. | |
tease out on you what perhaps is the taste is in Scotland with the | :23:06. | :23:12. | |
Scottish Government? -- what the status is. My apologies for saying | :23:13. | :23:16. | |
England only, and no one finds this more annoying than Scots, so I beg | :23:17. | :23:20. | |
thee on the walls and in's pardon for that. You will know that the | :23:21. | :23:23. | |
Scottish Government has been a long-time champion of gay rhghts, | :23:24. | :23:26. | |
and the country has become famous for its progress on this issue. In | :23:27. | :23:31. | |
fact, I remember there was ` time when we were told by opponents of | :23:32. | :23:34. | |
devolution that we should not have a Scottish Parliament, becausd we | :23:35. | :23:40. | |
relied on Westminster to kedp as liberal. That was an old argument | :23:41. | :23:45. | |
from the proper 1970s, I relember. We needed English and Welsh MPs to | :23:46. | :23:51. | |
keep us on the right side of liberal reform, otherwise we would be a | :23:52. | :23:56. | |
religious puppet state, a sort of Presbyterians Iran. LAUGHTER | :23:57. | :24:06. | |
I like to think that the progress we have made since Holyrood cale into | :24:07. | :24:12. | |
being has rather shown we h`ve a good record on that, but to address | :24:13. | :24:18. | |
your point I have had discussions with Scottish ministers. Thdre is of | :24:19. | :24:21. | |
course widespread welcome for this legislation and it is my belief that | :24:22. | :24:24. | |
Holyrood would enact somethhng very similar in due course. Now H went, | :24:25. | :24:34. | |
thank you. Now, -- now I won't, thank you. Let's focus on the | :24:35. | :24:38. | |
amendment what the Minister mentioned stars. The amendmdnt | :24:39. | :24:41. | |
accepted by the government would grant an automatic pardon to the | :24:42. | :24:47. | |
deceased, and of course that's great, but my bill provides the same | :24:48. | :24:51. | |
provision. But I have to ask the bill, should we not priorithse the | :24:52. | :24:58. | |
living over the dead? Now I don t know if you spotted an elderly | :24:59. | :25:03. | |
gentleman who toured the TV and radio studios yesterday, a | :25:04. | :25:05. | |
93-year-old, who feels immensely strongly, no, none of the mdmbers on | :25:06. | :25:11. | |
the Labour benches, somebodx different, the record the TV -- who | :25:12. | :25:18. | |
toured the TV studios yesterday talking about the injustice that he | :25:19. | :25:20. | |
feels about his criminal convictions. He hashtags hilself the | :25:21. | :25:25. | |
oldest gay in the village on twitter. He is 93 and he saxs he is | :25:26. | :25:33. | |
determined to live to 100 to see justice served, because he has lived | :25:34. | :25:36. | |
with a sense of injustice all these years. I am going to make progress. | :25:37. | :25:43. | |
How odd would it look for the elderly to be told that thex must | :25:44. | :25:46. | |
wait until they die for the automatic pardon which the | :25:47. | :25:50. | |
government now seems to be proposing? | :25:51. | :25:54. | |
Let us finish the law reforl we have started by recognising that the | :25:55. | :26:03. | |
victims of our prejudices are still hurting and they are still `live. | :26:04. | :26:07. | |
They deserve the piece that this Bill would bring. I beg to love The | :26:08. | :26:18. | |
question is that the Bill now be read a second time. Thank you Mr | :26:19. | :26:26. | |
Deputy Speaker. Our history is littered with minority groups who | :26:27. | :26:30. | |
have been caught up in illegal acts which we see today as being | :26:31. | :26:35. | |
unbelievable and discriminatory Laws that we cannot imagine because | :26:36. | :26:40. | |
morals and ethics of change to be on all recognition from bygone eras. In | :26:41. | :26:45. | |
fact, there are a string of moral and ethical subjects which we cannot | :26:46. | :26:53. | |
imagine criminalising or whhch are still criminal offences. Only in | :26:54. | :26:57. | |
April of this year, a young woman in Northern Ireland who could not | :26:58. | :27:01. | |
afford the fare to England for an abortion and in desperation took | :27:02. | :27:08. | |
abortion pills she bought online. She was under this Northern Irish | :27:09. | :27:14. | |
law arrested, charged and sdntenced to three months in jail, suspended | :27:15. | :27:18. | |
for two years and finally criminalised. That was in April of | :27:19. | :27:24. | |
this year. She was convicted in Belfast High Court and ancidnt laws | :27:25. | :27:28. | |
that came into force and Quden Victoria but still sit on the | :27:29. | :27:33. | |
statute books of Northern Ireland. Prostitution is another subject for | :27:34. | :27:37. | |
historically and today we sde so much ambiguity around what hs and | :27:38. | :27:42. | |
what is not illegal. Today, despite moving away from one stereotype of | :27:43. | :27:49. | |
the disreputable woman as a seller of sexual services, we look at the | :27:50. | :27:53. | |
prostitute as a vulnerable `nd exploited victim. The laws `round | :27:54. | :27:57. | |
prostitution in England and Wales are far from straightforward. The | :27:58. | :28:01. | |
active prostitution is not htself illegal bodies can of laws | :28:02. | :28:05. | |
criminalises activities arotnd it. It is an offence to cause or inside | :28:06. | :28:11. | |
prostitution or control it for personal gain. In 1956 sexu`l | :28:12. | :28:15. | |
offences Act bans running a brothel with more than one person and the | :28:16. | :28:27. | |
law is gender neutral. However. . Might want to correct. Therd is no | :28:28. | :28:31. | |
definition in a lot of what a brothel constitutes. The law allows | :28:32. | :28:37. | |
for the court to determine that a brothel is a frequented place by men | :28:38. | :28:43. | |
to perform lewd, a sexual practices including dancing. It has often been | :28:44. | :28:47. | |
used in that sense. There are still plenty on the statute books which | :28:48. | :28:55. | |
need reform. The honourable member makes my point eloquently, but they | :28:56. | :28:57. | |
got around prostitution is so ambiguous that it is quite dasy to | :28:58. | :29:06. | |
see how people can be chargdd with offences we feel are ridiculous | :29:07. | :29:10. | |
Whether you are morally opposed to some of these subjects or not is not | :29:11. | :29:15. | |
the issue. The reality is that a progressive government in a modern | :29:16. | :29:19. | |
democracy will continue to look at and debate openly all of thdse | :29:20. | :29:23. | |
issues. I am proud is a Conservative that some of these progresshve | :29:24. | :29:27. | |
issues have been brought forward under successive Conservative | :29:28. | :29:33. | |
governments. On the issue of decriminalising, sexuality, it was | :29:34. | :29:37. | |
the Churchill government whhch did that in the late 1950s. By no means | :29:38. | :29:42. | |
a turning point in history, but it was the start of a lengthy process | :29:43. | :29:52. | |
to put right a very serious wrong. Any of my colleagues might `rgue | :29:53. | :29:57. | |
that a crime is a crime and that was the law of the land at the time Why | :29:58. | :30:02. | |
are we looking at pardons for laws that our forefathers thought were | :30:03. | :30:07. | |
apt for the time and the dax? Why should we feel guilty for p`st | :30:08. | :30:12. | |
lawmakers who, like us, makd laws and pass legislation that fhts the | :30:13. | :30:15. | |
mood of the kinds of that p`rticular day? Why pardon gay and bisdxual men | :30:16. | :30:23. | |
when we see how many more hhstorical moral issues you could argud for as | :30:24. | :30:29. | |
well? For me the answer has got to be the police. We all know that | :30:30. | :30:34. | |
forces operate in a way which forces operate in a way which | :30:35. | :30:39. | |
sometimes hasn't been totally honest, open or above board. Just | :30:40. | :30:44. | |
look what happened at Hillsborough and not to mention the cases of | :30:45. | :30:49. | |
abuse swept under the carpet. Many of us in This House still come | :30:50. | :30:53. | |
across cases where you cannot but help question the ethos of our local | :30:54. | :30:59. | |
police forces, knowing full well what has gone on historically. In | :31:00. | :31:03. | |
the cases of criminal convictions around, sexuality, it doesn't take | :31:04. | :31:08. | |
too long when you travel thd internet to see what was once common | :31:09. | :31:12. | |
practice for our local police forces when dealing with homosexuality in | :31:13. | :31:18. | |
years gone by. In Bolton, not 1 million miles from my consthtuency, | :31:19. | :31:25. | |
in 1958, a public lavatory was well known to police and magistr`tes he | :31:26. | :31:28. | |
hadn't been a conviction for 30 years. On the other hand, there | :31:29. | :31:34. | |
would be to commit trawls through address books of suspected sexual is | :31:35. | :31:38. | |
with the result that up to 20 men at a time would appear in the dock | :31:39. | :31:42. | |
accused of being homosexuals, even though many of them might ndver have | :31:43. | :31:49. | |
met each other before. In one case, there was no public sex, though | :31:50. | :31:54. | |
under age sex, not multiple sex yet they were dragged to court `nd a | :31:55. | :32:00. | |
21-year-old man, considered the ringleader, was sentenced to 21 | :32:01. | :32:05. | |
months in jail. Interestingly, the Bolton evening News at daythme had | :32:06. | :32:10. | |
five letters of support for the convicted men and none against the | :32:11. | :32:15. | |
convicted men at all. The ddputy editor was visited by the local | :32:16. | :32:20. | |
police who wanted to know if he really thought this was what the | :32:21. | :32:23. | |
people of Bolton really thotght about the enforcement of thd law. In | :32:24. | :32:29. | |
the mid-19 50s, there was an atmosphere of a witchhunt, probably | :32:30. | :32:32. | |
not unrelated to what was h`ppening in America with McCarthy, whth | :32:33. | :32:36. | |
consequent opportunities for blackmail. A chap called Lille Alps | :32:37. | :32:45. | |
who piloted the sexual law reform Act through this Parliament recalls | :32:46. | :32:49. | |
it as a lawyer in Cardiff is fees for criminals suddenly started | :32:50. | :32:53. | |
coming from the account of one man. He investigated and found hd was a | :32:54. | :32:58. | |
professor. The criminals were bleeding him drive through | :32:59. | :33:04. | |
blackmail. Mr Deputy Speaker, MPs on both sides of the House beg`n to | :33:05. | :33:09. | |
demand action. One or two ndwspapers ran leaders and there was a | :33:10. | :33:12. | |
high-profile case in which police were called on one matter and ended | :33:13. | :33:20. | |
up prosecuting for another. Edward Montagu contacted the policd over a | :33:21. | :33:26. | |
stolen camera and ended up hn prison for a year for gross indecency. Two | :33:27. | :33:31. | |
of his friends, Michael Pitt Rivers and another got 18 months. Their | :33:32. | :33:37. | |
trial in 1954 probably playdd into the decision of the Home Secretary, | :33:38. | :33:42. | |
David Maxwell, to establish a committee to consider whethdr a | :33:43. | :33:47. | |
change in the law was necessary The question is, should men likd these | :33:48. | :33:52. | |
men, be pardoned? Of course they should. The police and magistrates | :33:53. | :33:55. | |
are clearly abused their powers to instil fear and practice entrapment. | :33:56. | :34:02. | |
Mr Deputy Speaker, the question is whether we should support this Bill | :34:03. | :34:06. | |
before us work with the govdrnment amendment to the police and crime | :34:07. | :34:11. | |
Bill? The honourable member for the Bill proposes a blanket pardon | :34:12. | :34:17. | |
without the need to go throtgh the disregard process. The government | :34:18. | :34:21. | |
amendment is exactly the sale but would mean those living would have | :34:22. | :34:24. | |
to go through that disregard the process. I for one... I think the | :34:25. | :34:32. | |
honourable member for giving way. I would like to make a point on the | :34:33. | :34:36. | |
living and the fact that we already prioritise the living, unlike the | :34:37. | :34:41. | |
point The Member For East Dunbartonshire made. Those who are | :34:42. | :34:44. | |
living can go to the disreg`rd process and get a statutory pardon | :34:45. | :34:49. | |
at the end of that process. The important thing is the safeguard | :34:50. | :34:52. | |
which is so you don't have ` situation where someone who receives | :34:53. | :34:57. | |
a blanket pardon, when they actually had sex with a minor gets the pardon | :34:58. | :35:04. | |
and goes to work in a school. I would like to thank my honotrable | :35:05. | :35:10. | |
friend for that clarification. He took my next two paragraphs out of | :35:11. | :35:16. | |
my speech. Thank you very mtch. He makes the point exactly. Thhs is one | :35:17. | :35:21. | |
reason why I cannot support this private members Bill becausd I | :35:22. | :35:25. | |
believe that to do so could lead, in some cases, despite what thd | :35:26. | :35:33. | |
honourable member for East Dunbartonshire says, I don't believe | :35:34. | :35:38. | |
it is in fact watertight as claimed, because people could be clahming the | :35:39. | :35:51. | |
did not commit offences which are still crimes when they in f`ct did. | :35:52. | :35:59. | |
He prepared for his speech by reading the Bill? " Says thd effect | :36:00. | :36:05. | |
of this Act, nothing in this Act is to be interpreted as disreg`rding or | :36:06. | :36:11. | |
pardoning or in otherwise affecting consequences of convictions or | :36:12. | :36:13. | |
cautions for conduct or beh`viour that is on lawful on the date that | :36:14. | :36:18. | |
the Act comes into force. What is unclear about that? I would like to | :36:19. | :36:26. | |
thank the honourable member for that intervention. My big concern is how | :36:27. | :36:32. | |
do we physically put that through June diligence process? The | :36:33. | :36:35. | |
disregard process is that process. Why on earth would you, as someone | :36:36. | :36:42. | |
who has been convicted, I h`ve already said there are a lot of | :36:43. | :36:51. | |
people and men from the past who clearly have had a process where | :36:52. | :36:54. | |
they should be pardoned, but actually, how do we check that | :36:55. | :36:58. | |
process? The disregard procdss is therefore that process. When my | :36:59. | :37:06. | |
honourable friend was explahning that, what you are not listdning | :37:07. | :37:09. | |
question that anyone who has to go through that process will h`ve to | :37:10. | :37:14. | |
prove the age, it might be difficult in many cases, the age of the other | :37:15. | :37:20. | |
party which led to the convhction. Many people will find that | :37:21. | :37:24. | |
impossible given the records. It is a safeguard against the verx thing | :37:25. | :37:29. | |
he is talking about. I don't agree that it is a safeguard. If we give a | :37:30. | :37:34. | |
blanket pardon, where are the safeguards to check that process? | :37:35. | :37:37. | |
That is exactly why we have a disregard process in the system | :37:38. | :37:44. | |
already that should be used as. It is important we have these | :37:45. | :37:48. | |
safeguards in place. It is still an offence in this country to have | :37:49. | :37:52. | |
underage sex and when we have the issues we are having in our schools | :37:53. | :37:58. | |
and around safeguarding of children it is vitally important that we have | :37:59. | :38:05. | |
those safeguards in place. For me, Mr Deputy Speaker, while I have | :38:06. | :38:09. | |
every sympathy for the Bill presented today by The Membdr For | :38:10. | :38:13. | |
East Dunbartonshire, I will not be supporting it, but will support the | :38:14. | :38:17. | |
government amendment to the police and crime Bill because I thhnk it is | :38:18. | :38:20. | |
incredibly important that wd have those safeguards in any process that | :38:21. | :38:27. | |
we do. I believe disregarding the disregard process would be the wrong | :38:28. | :38:34. | |
thing to do. Thank you very much. I warmly congratulate the whole of the | :38:35. | :38:41. | |
SNP on turning up today to support the honourable gentleman and he has | :38:42. | :38:45. | |
put his argument extremely well It is strange living in the world today | :38:46. | :38:48. | |
and looking around this country and being able to see so much that has | :38:49. | :38:55. | |
changed so very rapidly. Yotng people at school today are not | :38:56. | :38:59. | |
ashamed of running up that they are gay or lesbian or bisexual. Everyone | :39:00. | :39:03. | |
of us, when we go to a secondary school, will see that kids `re happy | :39:04. | :39:08. | |
to do that. When most of us went to school, there was nobody who was in | :39:09. | :39:13. | |
that category at all. Civil partnerships and same-sex m`rriage | :39:14. | :39:17. | |
have made an enormous difference to the way the whole of societx looks | :39:18. | :39:22. | |
at sexuality. Many children at school will note that other children | :39:23. | :39:26. | |
in their primary School havd gay parents. They have either bden | :39:27. | :39:31. | |
adopted or surrogate had or are in a set of circumstance where they have | :39:32. | :39:37. | |
two dads or two months. That is not an uncommon experience for lany | :39:38. | :39:39. | |
youngsters about the future will be even warmer than that. I don't think | :39:40. | :39:44. | |
there's any employer in Britain today he thinks it would be ready to | :39:45. | :39:47. | |
sack someone because of thehr sexuality and as the honour`ble | :39:48. | :39:51. | |
member referred to, it is a delight that applies to our Armed Forces and | :39:52. | :39:57. | |
police as well. In short periods of time ago, ministers made colplicated | :39:58. | :40:02. | |
decisions about whether to `llow members of the Armed Forces to march | :40:03. | :40:06. | |
in gay pride marches in uniform That seems a bizarre and outdated | :40:07. | :40:12. | |
debate to have had. So, there is a phenomenal sense that we have made | :40:13. | :40:16. | |
enormous achievements, enorlous strides in this country. I `m | :40:17. | :40:23. | |
grateful to the honourable gentleman forgiving way. Does the honourable | :40:24. | :40:28. | |
gentleman agree that much of the progress in the change in attitudes | :40:29. | :40:35. | |
toward, sexual and gay and lesbian people in general in societx has | :40:36. | :40:40. | |
come through the media and the way that gay and lesbian people are | :40:41. | :40:46. | |
portrayed in soap operas and on a date when I understand that This | :40:47. | :40:50. | |
House is about to be joined by a former actress from Coronathon | :40:51. | :40:56. | |
Street, characters like the gay picture in Coronation Street, for | :40:57. | :40:59. | |
example? This has all helped to change the way gay and lesbhan | :41:00. | :41:01. | |
people are perceived. I think the media has played a | :41:02. | :41:11. | |
double edged sword, to be honest. I am quite sick of the fact that the | :41:12. | :41:15. | |
gay character in a crime dr`ma will be the murderer. Historically, it | :41:16. | :41:21. | |
was Larry Grayson and I don't know, John Inman always maintained that | :41:22. | :41:26. | |
his character in you being served wasn't gay. It is true that the | :41:27. | :41:30. | |
campest people I know are all heterosexual men. LAUGHTER | :41:31. | :41:40. | |
But I just said to the Honotrable gentleman, yes it did matter when | :41:41. | :41:45. | |
Michael Cashman's character kissed another man on Eastenders. That was | :41:46. | :41:52. | |
a change making moment, and I think British society has moved on faster | :41:53. | :41:58. | |
maybe because our broadcastdrs in this country, partly, inciddntally, | :41:59. | :42:01. | |
through Mrs Thatcher's reaction of Channel 4, which was given ` role to | :42:02. | :42:05. | |
be edgy and different and all of that, has made it possible for us to | :42:06. | :42:12. | |
make strides very fast. But it doesn't always work like th`t. I'm | :42:13. | :42:15. | |
still mystified why Australha, which seems to me the campest nathon on | :42:16. | :42:20. | |
earth, obsessed with Abba, still doesn't have any form of | :42:21. | :42:24. | |
legalisation of gay relationships. And I very much hope that is going | :42:25. | :42:28. | |
to happen soon, and I come onto one of the reasons why I think that | :42:29. | :42:33. | |
might be in a moment. Also, incidentally, I remember thd rows | :42:34. | :42:37. | |
there were in my time as an MP when the House of Lords refused to make | :42:38. | :42:43. | |
for an equal age of consent and get rid of section 20 eight. We had to | :42:44. | :42:47. | |
use the Parliament act to ptsh that through, and yet when it cale to | :42:48. | :42:51. | |
same-sex marriage, the Housd of Lords, there were more consdrvative | :42:52. | :42:53. | |
members of the House of Lords who voted in favour of it than there | :42:54. | :43:01. | |
were members of the Conserv`tives in the House of Commons who voted for | :43:02. | :43:04. | |
it. I also remember when thdre was a row in this house about whether we | :43:05. | :43:08. | |
should ban discrimination and provision of goods and servhces | :43:09. | :43:13. | |
including adoption services, to gay couples. And I was back that the | :43:14. | :43:20. | |
Catholic Church's argument `t the time was it's fine for an individual | :43:21. | :43:26. | |
gay person to adopt a child but not for a couple. So a settled | :43:27. | :43:30. | |
relationship was in their mhnd a more dangerous place than somebody | :43:31. | :43:34. | |
who was single. And I just didn t understand that logic and the truth | :43:35. | :43:37. | |
of the matter is that many of the most difficult to place kids are | :43:38. | :43:41. | |
placed with gay and lesbian couples. I am glad that in the end this house | :43:42. | :43:45. | |
and the House of Lords wholeheartedly endorse the hdea that | :43:46. | :43:49. | |
there should be no discrimination of provision of goods and servhces But | :43:50. | :43:53. | |
not anything is perfect -- not everything is perfect still, | :43:54. | :43:57. | |
bullying is still going on hn schools and it is through dhfficult | :43:58. | :44:00. | |
to eradicate. I mean the le`ding on many different fronts but one of | :44:01. | :44:06. | |
them is in relation to sexu`lity. The word gay is all too oftdn used | :44:07. | :44:12. | |
in a pejorative sense, and schools find difficulties sometimes dealing | :44:13. | :44:17. | |
with these issues. My husband Jarod is a trustee of a charity c`lled | :44:18. | :44:20. | |
diversity role models, which tries to go into schools and talk through | :44:21. | :44:24. | |
his issues because I still think it is a phenomenal shame that we don't | :44:25. | :44:28. | |
have proper sex and relationship education in every single school in | :44:29. | :44:32. | |
this land, without any schools being able to opt out, because in the end | :44:33. | :44:35. | |
that means that most kids end up having their first sexual | :44:36. | :44:41. | |
experience, delaying it, yot end up cutting the level of teenagd | :44:42. | :44:43. | |
pregnancy and I think it is better for everybody all ran to have proper | :44:44. | :44:47. | |
sex and relationship educathon. But let's just remember, I can't | :44:48. | :44:50. | |
remember whether I'm slightly older or slightly younger than thd | :44:51. | :44:55. | |
Honourable gentleman. Alder. Alder, apparently. LAUGHTER | :44:56. | :45:03. | |
I see he is in as magnanimots a mood as usual! So being slightly older I | :45:04. | :45:08. | |
have even more experience and wisdom to in part than him. LAUGHTDR | :45:09. | :45:12. | |
I just remember one of my vdry first experiences coming to London was | :45:13. | :45:17. | |
meeting a couple called Chrhstopher and tilted. They had lived together | :45:18. | :45:23. | |
since the 1950s. Just after I first met them, they had, one of them had | :45:24. | :45:28. | |
been attacked on the way hole. They were living together. They had a | :45:29. | :45:32. | |
one-bedroom flat. He was attacked on the way home, and had lots of | :45:33. | :45:41. | |
injuries, and they were worried about whether some of those would be | :45:42. | :45:48. | |
permanent injuries. The guy had insisted on coming in the house and | :45:49. | :45:52. | |
had burgled them at knife-point And what was really striking about their | :45:53. | :45:58. | |
story was they could neither go to hospital, nor could they go to | :45:59. | :46:02. | |
police, because they lived hn a one-bedroom flat and there were two | :46:03. | :46:05. | |
people living in it. Under the law of the land, that was a crilinal | :46:06. | :46:11. | |
offence. That was a criminal offence, and they knew they would | :46:12. | :46:13. | |
not get justice, despite wh`t had happened to them. And there are | :46:14. | :46:19. | |
countless thousands of others to whom that applied. When I w`s at | :46:20. | :46:24. | |
university, I remember two of my friends, I at the time was sort of | :46:25. | :46:32. | |
straight. LAUGHTER How does that work? Well, I'm a | :46:33. | :46:39. | |
practising homosexual now. One day I will be quite good at it. L@UGHTER | :46:40. | :46:44. | |
Incidentally, I was also a sort of Conservative at the time, btt we | :46:45. | :46:52. | |
won't go into that! Many, m`ny sins. But the serious point is th`t at the | :46:53. | :46:55. | |
time I remember two of my friends got into trouble with one of the | :46:56. | :47:00. | |
University police, because they had had sex. They were 19-year-olds two | :47:01. | :47:05. | |
men, that was a criminal offence, they were U21, and certainlx a | :47:06. | :47:09. | |
college room is not a private place, but it didn't matter under the law. | :47:10. | :47:14. | |
The two were sent down, nevdr finished the university degrees and | :47:15. | :47:21. | |
they got a criminal convicthon. Until the sexual offences act in | :47:22. | :47:25. | |
2003, importuning was illeg`l in this country. Importuning, ht sounds | :47:26. | :47:32. | |
a strange word, it meant and was by the police for many convicthons | :47:33. | :47:37. | |
right up until the end of this, until 2003, for if you had let | :47:38. | :47:42. | |
somebody in a bar, if a man had met somebody in a bar that they didn't | :47:43. | :47:45. | |
know before they went into ` bar and went home with them. That w`s | :47:46. | :47:48. | |
importuning and you could bd sent down for it until 2003. And often | :47:49. | :47:53. | |
the police when they could not secure a conviction for somdthing | :47:54. | :47:58. | |
else, relied on that as the charge that they brought. Many people hid | :47:59. | :48:04. | |
their sexuality for the simple reason they would terrified they | :48:05. | :48:07. | |
would be sacked or they would not be promoted or advanced. I pay tribute | :48:08. | :48:10. | |
to John Major, I think it w`s him when he was Foreign Secretary, he | :48:11. | :48:13. | |
was the first person who sahd he won't be sacked the just behng gay | :48:14. | :48:20. | |
in the Foreign Office. The number of people who are subject to blackmail | :48:21. | :48:24. | |
in very ordinary jobs. You didn t have to no state secrets. You just | :48:25. | :48:28. | |
had to be a person who was frightened of being exposed for | :48:29. | :48:31. | |
being a criminal, and potentially being sent to prison for it, to be | :48:32. | :48:35. | |
subject to blackmail in your local community. And of course thd number | :48:36. | :48:41. | |
of suicides has remained sttbbornly high. I am going to refer to one a | :48:42. | :48:49. | |
little bit later. Historically, the UK, since its foundation in 180 , | :48:50. | :48:54. | |
Great Britain 1707, and for that matter England before it, h`s had | :48:55. | :48:57. | |
the toughest laws on homosexuality in the world. Much tougher than the | :48:58. | :49:02. | |
French under the Napoleonic code, which made no reference to `ny of | :49:03. | :49:06. | |
this. Our colonies around the world are actually still are some of the | :49:07. | :49:12. | |
countries with the worst laws on this, our former colonies, hn some | :49:13. | :49:18. | |
cases capital punishment survives. We have made great strides towards | :49:19. | :49:22. | |
equality, but as we all know still live with the legacy of anthquated | :49:23. | :49:28. | |
legislation. And we only nedd to look at certain Commonwealth | :49:29. | :49:31. | |
countries, for example of this, in some cases the anti-gay laws in | :49:32. | :49:37. | |
existence are mirror copies of those which existed here. So would the | :49:38. | :49:40. | |
Honourable member agree with me that if we are to start making | :49:41. | :49:44. | |
reparations for this wrongdoing in addition to pardoning those | :49:45. | :49:47. | |
convicted, we must also seek to influence other members of the | :49:48. | :49:51. | |
Commonwealth where gay men `nd women do not enjoy freedom to be who they | :49:52. | :49:56. | |
are? Yes, I wholeheartedly `gree, and indeed when I was a Fordign | :49:57. | :50:00. | |
Office minister for about two and a half seconds... LAUGHTER | :50:01. | :50:07. | |
That was one of the things, far too long, I know, I did try to push | :50:08. | :50:11. | |
forward some of these issues, and for that matter I think the Foreign | :50:12. | :50:13. | |
Office can play an important role around the world in relation to | :50:14. | :50:18. | |
abuse in countries as diverse as Iran and Russia for that matter I | :50:19. | :50:23. | |
would say to my Australian colleagues, for heaven sake just get | :50:24. | :50:26. | |
your act together, really jtst get your act together. Join the company | :50:27. | :50:32. | |
of all the nations who have changed. I mean, if Argentina can have gay | :50:33. | :50:37. | |
marriage, if Spain, so dominated historically by Catholicism, can | :50:38. | :50:40. | |
have gay marriage, why on e`rth can't Australia, the countrx of | :50:41. | :50:46. | |
Priscilla Queen of the desert? Why on earth can't Australia have gay | :50:47. | :50:54. | |
marriage? What we are debathng any sense comes from one of the worst | :50:55. | :50:59. | |
moment in our history in relation to this, the 1870s and 1880s, where a | :51:00. | :51:02. | |
deliberate hysteria was whipped up around homosexuality in this country | :51:03. | :51:08. | |
by a series of scurrilous and horrible newspapers. And it led to | :51:09. | :51:13. | |
the criminal law Amendment `ct of 1885, which was a serious phece of | :51:14. | :51:16. | |
legislation trying to tackld the problem of underage young women who | :51:17. | :51:19. | |
were being abused in the prostitution trade. Henry L`mont | :51:20. | :51:24. | |
share introduced a clause and just want to read it out because I hope | :51:25. | :51:29. | |
that people will realise quhte how pernicious a piece of legislation it | :51:30. | :51:37. | |
was. "Any Male person who in public in public who commits or is it a | :51:38. | :51:42. | |
party of commission of the fuels or attempt to put the commission by any | :51:43. | :51:47. | |
male person of any act of gross indecency by another male pdrson | :51:48. | :51:51. | |
shall be guilty of a misdemdanour, and being convicted thereof shall be | :51:52. | :51:53. | |
liable at the discretion of the court to be imprisoned for `ny term | :51:54. | :51:57. | |
not exceeding two years, with or without hard labour. In public or in | :51:58. | :52:07. | |
private. Commit boys a parthcle procures or attempts to procure " | :52:08. | :52:11. | |
They could not have made it more wide reaching. The piece of | :52:12. | :52:14. | |
legislation that any court would be able to determine as they fdlt fit. | :52:15. | :52:20. | |
And the line at the end of that hard labour, that is of course | :52:21. | :52:23. | |
partly what ended up killing Oscar Wilde, as is so famous. And that | :52:24. | :52:32. | |
legislation led to thousands and thousands of people being sdnt to | :52:33. | :52:35. | |
prison and doing hard labour. There was a campaign in the 1920s to try | :52:36. | :52:40. | |
and read this country of its scourge. A young lad from the | :52:41. | :52:47. | |
Rhondda, a railway porter c`lled commerce committee was caught by the | :52:48. | :52:52. | |
police outside the theatre. They tried to do him the gross indecency. | :52:53. | :52:58. | |
He was in the end sent to prison for three months and did hard l`bour. | :52:59. | :53:03. | |
The only piece of evidence that they had to advance was that he had his | :53:04. | :53:07. | |
mother's powderpuff in his pocket. The only piece of evidence, and he | :53:08. | :53:11. | |
was sent to prison for thred months. I'm so, so proud that the MP at the | :53:12. | :53:17. | |
time for Rhondda West, who was William John, a minor, he g`ve | :53:18. | :53:23. | |
evidence on behalf of the young man, but the court didn't listen to him. | :53:24. | :53:28. | |
In the 1950s, we came back to it all over again. David Maxwell Fxfe, the | :53:29. | :53:33. | |
Home Secretary. Wonderful in helping draft, wonderful at New England is | :53:34. | :53:45. | |
one of the inquisitors, and the human rights Convention, but he was | :53:46. | :53:48. | |
shockingly homophobic and forced the Home Office and the police began to | :53:49. | :53:51. | |
rid this country of this scourge, as he put it, of homosexuality. One of | :53:52. | :53:57. | |
the terrible ironies is that the first who are in fact fact were | :53:58. | :54:02. | |
conservative members of Parliament. Now I just want to come to the bill | :54:03. | :54:08. | |
itself. I listen to what thd minister said and I just sax to him | :54:09. | :54:11. | |
there is a real problem abott trying to force people to go through | :54:12. | :54:17. | |
another process. There is a real problem, because why on earth would | :54:18. | :54:21. | |
you, if you are now in your 70s or 80s, even though this has bden like | :54:22. | :54:28. | |
a mark, like a brand on you for all of your life, which may havd caused | :54:29. | :54:31. | |
terrible problems in your f`mily life, may have meant that you were | :54:32. | :54:34. | |
never able to do the job th`t you wanted to do in life, may bd meant | :54:35. | :54:38. | |
that you as a teacher were never able to go back to teaching, may be | :54:39. | :54:42. | |
meant that your friends and relatives shunned EU and th`t you | :54:43. | :54:46. | |
felt terribly, terribly ash`med why on earth would you want to write to | :54:47. | :54:50. | |
the Home Secretary and say please can I be pardoned? Why on e`rth | :54:51. | :54:53. | |
would you want to go through a process all over again, why on earth | :54:54. | :54:56. | |
would you want somebody to `nalyse whether or not you were guilty of | :54:57. | :55:01. | |
something at all, way back when And I said to the Minister. He lade a | :55:02. | :55:06. | |
very good argument to say ldt's will work together but the way to work | :55:07. | :55:09. | |
together is to agree to the bill, and then let's will go to committee | :55:10. | :55:13. | |
and if there are things that need to be that right, let's put thdm right. | :55:14. | :55:19. | |
I said to the honourable men becoming the bill is not watertight, | :55:20. | :55:23. | |
let's make it watertight and that is the place to do it in the committee, | :55:24. | :55:27. | |
not by turning our back on this today. And several honourable | :55:28. | :55:31. | |
members have referred to thd fact that this might be called the Turing | :55:32. | :55:37. | |
bill. I don't want to call `t the Turing bill, I want to call it the | :55:38. | :55:46. | |
Cartland McNamara Muirhead Bernays Cazalet bill. At the start of the | :55:47. | :55:54. | |
1930s, there were many MPs `nd politicians in this country, most of | :55:55. | :55:58. | |
them conservative, as it happens, there weren't many Labour MPs in the | :55:59. | :56:03. | |
early 1930s. And many of thdm were convinced that Germany was ` good | :56:04. | :56:07. | |
country, because it had verx liberal attitudes towards homosexuality is. | :56:08. | :56:13. | |
Berlin in the 1930s was a vdry good place for a gay man to live. | :56:14. | :56:20. | |
Jackie McNamara was elected in 935. Another was Ronald Cartland who was | :56:21. | :56:37. | |
elected for Birmingham Kings Norton. They changed their minds whdn they | :56:38. | :56:41. | |
saw what was happening to homosexuals in Germany in the 1 30s. | :56:42. | :56:46. | |
Originally they thought the Versailles Treaty was unfair to | :56:47. | :56:50. | |
Germany, they thought it should be overturned and Germany should be | :56:51. | :56:53. | |
able to re-militarise the Rhineland and should change its futurd. In | :56:54. | :57:01. | |
1936, Jack McNamara visited the Rhineland to support the relote | :57:02. | :57:02. | |
reservation of the Rhineland. When reservation of the Rhineland. When | :57:03. | :57:09. | |
he was there he accidentallx, he said, visited a concentration camp. | :57:10. | :57:15. | |
It was Dakar, the only one who existed at the time. The people in | :57:16. | :57:21. | |
Dachau were dues, the polithcally unwanted and some homosexuals. He | :57:22. | :57:24. | |
sought the violence perpetr`ted against them and when he cale back, | :57:25. | :57:29. | |
he and others became the most sufferers campaigners against | :57:30. | :57:37. | |
appeasement in This House. Jack McNamara, Anthony Meric said he was | :57:38. | :57:43. | |
a junior minister, Victor C`zalet, Harold Nicolson. These were gay or | :57:44. | :57:51. | |
bisexual. They campaigned vociferously in this chamber and | :57:52. | :57:56. | |
around, they campaigned agahnst GB at him. Jack McNamara made ` speech | :57:57. | :58:01. | |
about the bidding and was spat at when he went to a bar and hd never | :58:02. | :58:05. | |
went back. They campaigned `gainst it. Ronald Cartland was probably the | :58:06. | :58:13. | |
most courageous in the Munich debates, saying it was terrhble that | :58:14. | :58:17. | |
we should capitulate and appease Hitler. What did the governlent do? | :58:18. | :58:26. | |
, they called them the glamour boys. They got newspapers to ask why were | :58:27. | :58:31. | |
they still not married, why were the bachelors? They had their tdlephones | :58:32. | :58:34. | |
tapped, they had them followed and when they made speeches thex | :58:35. | :58:38. | |
threatened them with deselection. Yet, they persisted. It is ly very | :58:39. | :58:42. | |
strong belief that had it not been for those gay men he would never | :58:43. | :58:48. | |
have faced down Hitler and we would not enjoy today the freedoms that we | :58:49. | :58:53. | |
do. I mention some of the n`mes because they have got Shields up in | :58:54. | :59:01. | |
the chamber. Jack McNamara desperately wanted to fight in the | :59:02. | :59:04. | |
Second World War because he said I have argued for this war, I should | :59:05. | :59:10. | |
fight. Churchill didn't want to He wanted, although he had been in the | :59:11. | :59:14. | |
Army before, he wanted him to serve in some capacity on home front and | :59:15. | :59:20. | |
not overseas. He got his mother juridically Churchill month after | :59:21. | :59:23. | |
month after month until he was given a posting in the Adriatic and he | :59:24. | :59:31. | |
sought service. He was killdd when the Germans bombarded him and his | :59:32. | :59:37. | |
troops in Italy. Ronald Cartland was disabled and he failed his first | :59:38. | :59:41. | |
medical test but he managed to persuade someone to draft another | :59:42. | :59:48. | |
one and he was drafted and he was sent to France in early 1940. He and | :59:49. | :59:58. | |
his troops were holding the four in the triangle between Calais and | :59:59. | :00:03. | |
Dunkirk. He was one of the last people out of the Fort. Thex kept on | :00:04. | :00:05. | |
for four more days than thex should for four more days than thex should | :00:06. | :00:09. | |
have done for their protecthon so thousands more British troops could | :00:10. | :00:13. | |
escape from Dunkirk and Cal`is. It is one of the few terms of the | :00:14. | :00:16. | |
commando officer in the British Armed Forces said every man for | :00:17. | :00:21. | |
himself as they left. He was killed on the route back to Dunkirk. | :00:22. | :00:28. | |
Anthony Muirhead, his plaqud is up there. He committed suicide just | :00:29. | :00:33. | |
after the war started. It is often said he committed suicide bdcause he | :00:34. | :00:38. | |
wasn't able to fight. I suspect it was because the newspapers were | :00:39. | :00:43. | |
pursuing him about his priv`te life. Robert Bernays, the Liberal MP for | :00:44. | :00:47. | |
Bristol North, he was killed in a plane crash over the Adriathc. | :00:48. | :00:53. | |
Again, in military service. Victor Cazalet died in an air crash. He | :00:54. | :00:58. | |
became a close friend of thd free polls and died in an air cr`sh. I | :00:59. | :01:07. | |
just say that we as a country go not just to those people, but to so many | :01:08. | :01:15. | |
other men something that fedls like an apology to stop that really says | :01:16. | :01:22. | |
I am sorry we got this wrong. You were brave, courageous men. We got | :01:23. | :01:26. | |
it wrong, you were right. Wd owe you a debt of gratitude. It is ` | :01:27. | :01:36. | |
pleasure to follow the honotrable member. As a former strict | :01:37. | :01:41. | |
Conservative we appear to h`ve been on how the journey together. No one | :01:42. | :01:53. | |
can doubt from the QC made from Bill, on the narrow point hd made | :01:54. | :01:57. | |
about the Bill, I entirely `gree with them and want to come back to | :01:58. | :02:02. | |
that in the course of my own remarks. The emotion with which he | :02:03. | :02:06. | |
presented his case was more than exemplified by the honourable member | :02:07. | :02:10. | |
for East Dunbartonshire whose speech was his usual brilliant itsdlf as | :02:11. | :02:14. | |
one would expect. It would debating champion when I first ran across as | :02:15. | :02:19. | |
president of the Durham Uni society a horribly long time ago. It was but | :02:20. | :02:28. | |
powerful and emotional and he, like the honourable member for the | :02:29. | :02:31. | |
Rhondda, introduced the widdr background to this and why this | :02:32. | :02:38. | |
matters so much. Particularly to the LGBT community. Ten to the narrow | :02:39. | :02:44. | |
issue of the Bill, which I will confine my remarks to. The royal | :02:45. | :02:50. | |
pardon given to Doctor Alan Turing in December 2013 was widely welcomed | :02:51. | :02:55. | |
as helping to put right the injustices suffered by being | :02:56. | :02:59. | |
convicted for gross indecency in 1952 and the subsequent physical and | :03:00. | :03:03. | |
emotional damage insured thd chemical castration then le`ding to | :03:04. | :03:09. | |
his suicide. It is true that this posthumous pardon change thd | :03:10. | :03:12. | |
precedent for the exercise of the royal prerogative of mercy. As the | :03:13. | :03:19. | |
government of the day then stated, a pardon is only granted when the | :03:20. | :03:23. | |
person is innocent of the offence and where a request has been made by | :03:24. | :03:27. | |
someone with a vested interdst such as a family member. Uniquelx, on | :03:28. | :03:32. | |
this occasion, a pardon has been issued without either requirement | :03:33. | :03:35. | |
being met, reflecting the exceptional nature of Alan Turing's | :03:36. | :03:42. | |
achievements. Touring the Alan Turing was, to which we shotld | :03:43. | :03:47. | |
continue to pay tribute, thd wrongs done to thousands of gay men which | :03:48. | :03:52. | |
we recognise today as human rights abuses are no less in need of being | :03:53. | :03:58. | |
corrected. The hurt and pain and injustice is no different for all | :03:59. | :04:04. | |
these people. The exception holiday of Alan Turing's pardon can not | :04:05. | :04:11. | |
hold. As a Justice minister, holding my honourable friend 's | :04:12. | :04:16. | |
responsibilities some five xears ago, I held the government line | :04:17. | :04:23. | |
against granting a pardon to Alan Turing in a debate in Westmhnster | :04:24. | :04:30. | |
Hall and I made the wider point By that time the government believed it | :04:31. | :04:36. | |
had dealt with the practical issues around it is regards in the | :04:37. | :04:49. | |
protection of freedom Act in 20 2. On the pardon point, I been said, to | :04:50. | :04:54. | |
grant him, Alan Turing, a p`rdon under the royal prerogative would | :04:55. | :04:58. | |
change the bases on which stch pardons are normally given. If Alan | :04:59. | :05:02. | |
Turing were pardoned, there would be tens of thousands of other people in | :05:03. | :05:06. | |
respect of whom demands for like treatment could be made. Those | :05:07. | :05:11. | |
persons include about 16,000 living individuals with convictions from | :05:12. | :05:15. | |
sexuality and many times th`t number of deceased victims. This Bhll would | :05:16. | :05:22. | |
simply fulfil that the logic of the arguments I presented in 2002 and in | :05:23. | :05:28. | |
doing so make the same gesttre on the part of society today through an | :05:29. | :05:32. | |
Act of Parliament to the thousands of men deserving of it. The | :05:33. | :05:39. | |
government announced yesterday that it would support an amendment to the | :05:40. | :05:44. | |
protection of freedoms Act 2012 through amendment to the policing | :05:45. | :05:48. | |
and crime Bill and this would extend a pardon to those, for the living, | :05:49. | :05:53. | |
in cases where offences havd been deleted through the disregard | :05:54. | :05:58. | |
process. What a welcome step, this approach ties the pardon to the | :05:59. | :06:02. | |
process of disregarding convictions from criminal records which already | :06:03. | :06:06. | |
exist and would be extended by clause three of this Bill. There | :06:07. | :06:11. | |
need not be such a link. Thd government can be more generous It | :06:12. | :06:21. | |
can make a distinction betwden the powerful, symbolic effect of the | :06:22. | :06:26. | |
general pardon to men, some live, many dead and the mechanism by which | :06:27. | :06:30. | |
individuals can benefit frol the practical effects of a pardon | :06:31. | :06:35. | |
through the disregard process. This, therefore, would ensure that the | :06:36. | :06:39. | |
criminal offences which rem`in criminal offences are not included | :06:40. | :06:43. | |
in any practical consequencds of this pardon. However, this | :06:44. | :06:48. | |
discussion, can and should be a matter for committed discussion | :06:49. | :06:53. | |
Ministers will present a different view and different concerns, but I | :06:54. | :06:58. | |
believe that discussion shotld be had at the committee stage of this | :06:59. | :07:02. | |
Bill and if the government hs not satisfied with the discussion in | :07:03. | :07:06. | |
committee then, of course, the Bill will not make progress toward being | :07:07. | :07:11. | |
an actor. I assume the sponsor of the Bill is pleased that thd | :07:12. | :07:15. | |
government has at least movdd some of the way in its proposal `nd even | :07:16. | :07:21. | |
if it were not to move further, I would argue that this Bill hs a | :07:22. | :07:26. | |
better vehicle for the Sharkey amendment than a rather anonymous | :07:27. | :07:30. | |
amendment within the latest policing and crime Bill which rule of the | :07:31. | :07:36. | |
statute book year after year and wouldn't have the symbolic dffect | :07:37. | :07:40. | |
that this Act of Parliament would have. This is the point, I believe, | :07:41. | :07:47. | |
this Bill and our debate is at least as much about symbolic resthtution | :07:48. | :07:53. | |
and a rating of wrongs as of process. The measures adoptdd, | :07:54. | :07:56. | |
whether the narrower version currently favoured by the | :07:57. | :08:00. | |
government, or the product `pproach in this Bill as it is today, would | :08:01. | :08:07. | |
stand a much better as a sylbol in a stand alone Act and I hope ` way can | :08:08. | :08:14. | |
be found to use the honourable member for East Dunbartonshhre's | :08:15. | :08:17. | |
Bill as the vehicle by which we can make this clear statement of | :08:18. | :08:21. | |
two-day's values of two-day's parliament. It is always a pleasure | :08:22. | :08:33. | |
to star in another episode of carry on up the Commons which is what it | :08:34. | :08:37. | |
has been like in here this lorning. What a pleasure it is to follow my | :08:38. | :08:41. | |
honourable friend from East Dunbartonshire. Don't call them that | :08:42. | :08:46. | |
to about the conventions of the House, I say it because he hs both | :08:47. | :08:50. | |
honourable and a true friend. What a piece of legislation he has brought | :08:51. | :08:55. | |
to the House. The first SNP Private members Bill. Historic moment. | :08:56. | :09:01. | |
Although he doesn't wish to present it as such and I would agred with | :09:02. | :09:09. | |
that. In his remarks he tells of his time with Edwina Currie in | :09:10. | :09:14. | |
Amsterdam. I would urge all members when you get a chance outset of this | :09:15. | :09:18. | |
chamber to ask about the store that is disappearing up the stairs. From | :09:19. | :09:23. | |
a room with very few lights I seem to remember him telling it. I will | :09:24. | :09:29. | |
leave them to develop that further. When he was called to introduce the | :09:30. | :09:33. | |
Bill, top of the ballot, I confessed to just a tiny bit of seethhng | :09:34. | :09:40. | |
jealousy on that morning. As I opened my Twitter account on my iPod | :09:41. | :09:46. | |
to see him number one on thd ballot, because this is the Bill, h`d it | :09:47. | :09:50. | |
been myself, that I would whsh to have introduced and we had several | :09:51. | :09:54. | |
conversations about different ideas that he had and this was thd one he | :09:55. | :10:01. | |
chose to bring to the House. I think he is to be enormously congratulated | :10:02. | :10:07. | |
for it. What a forensic spedch from the honourable gentleman from the | :10:08. | :10:13. | |
Rhondda. Historical. Referrhng to the shields of previous honourable | :10:14. | :10:19. | |
members in This House. He is to be thanked because we are bettdr | :10:20. | :10:24. | |
informed as a result of his remarks. Mr Deputy Speaker, I want to share | :10:25. | :10:28. | |
one or two stories from constituents of mine who I won't name. One of | :10:29. | :10:36. | |
them is actually quite well known in left-wing circles in Scottish | :10:37. | :10:41. | |
politics. It concerns when there was a time when there was no LGBT | :10:42. | :10:47. | |
centres, no gay bars, the places the gay community could go and socialise | :10:48. | :10:53. | |
so it often meant they had to do so at | :10:54. | :11:00. | |
And he told me a story about one flat in particular in Rutherford, | :11:01. | :11:08. | |
one flat that became the pl`ce to go to. The honourable member for | :11:09. | :11:14. | |
Rutherford claimed she was hn there from a sedentary position. This was | :11:15. | :11:18. | |
in the 1960s, Mr Deputy Spe`ker and the neighbours at the time had | :11:19. | :11:21. | |
cottoned on to the fact that there were these devious homosexu`l men | :11:22. | :11:27. | |
and women having a party. I should break it to some people that when we | :11:28. | :11:32. | |
homosexuals have a party, it's just like any other party, only luch more | :11:33. | :11:37. | |
fun. LAUGHTER And at this party, there wotld be | :11:38. | :11:43. | |
music, laughter, gossip, dancing, singing, perhaps even a wee drink or | :11:44. | :11:48. | |
two. And when the neighbours had cottoned on that this flat was full | :11:49. | :11:51. | |
of homosexuals, they would call the police. And the police would visit | :11:52. | :12:00. | |
the flat, no crime having bden committed, no anti-social bdhaviour, | :12:01. | :12:05. | |
the police would visit the flat and hit the names and addresses of every | :12:06. | :12:08. | |
person there, asking why thdy were there, intimidating them. And my | :12:09. | :12:16. | |
constituent decided, when hd saw the police were coming up the stairs, | :12:17. | :12:19. | |
that he wasn't going to stax in the room but he couldn't exactlx leave | :12:20. | :12:22. | |
the front door, so he deciddd to hang out the window from thd second | :12:23. | :12:31. | |
story of a Glasgow tenement, putting himself in clear danger of not just | :12:32. | :12:35. | |
injuring himself but perhaps losing his life. Until his arms cotld take | :12:36. | :12:40. | |
no further, he crawled into the window and to give a statemdnt to | :12:41. | :12:47. | |
the police. Such is the ingdnuity of good Glaswegians, they thought | :12:48. | :12:50. | |
themselves should this ever happen again, we need to have a pl`n, we | :12:51. | :12:54. | |
need to have a plan if the police turn up again, so they decided, I | :12:55. | :13:01. | |
would say borrow rather than steel, the choir books from the Rutherford | :13:02. | :13:06. | |
Parish church so that if thd police were to come back, the music could | :13:07. | :13:10. | |
be switched off, the drink could be put away, and all they would be | :13:11. | :13:14. | |
confronted with would be thd Rutherford Parish church choir | :13:15. | :13:21. | |
singing come by and whatever other hymns they fancy. You haven't been | :13:22. | :13:27. | |
to church for a while, have you LAUGHTER | :13:28. | :13:32. | |
I should say that God is always surprised to see me when I `ttend | :13:33. | :13:39. | |
prayers in this house. And, Mr Deputy Speaker, although we laugh, | :13:40. | :13:44. | |
that is what people were gohng through, and much, much worse has | :13:45. | :13:49. | |
been brought to the house bx other members. And things moved on. Things | :13:50. | :13:57. | |
have moved on remarkably. Btt even through the 1980s, friends of mine | :13:58. | :14:04. | |
talk about going to Pride p`rades in London, where the streets would be | :14:05. | :14:08. | |
lined with police as though it were some kind of violent protest they | :14:09. | :14:18. | |
were expecting. And in a magnificent act of defiance, a friend of mine | :14:19. | :14:21. | |
tied a pink balloon to the strap of his bag so that as he walked on his | :14:22. | :14:27. | |
first gay pride march, it would bounce off the noses of the police | :14:28. | :14:31. | |
officers as he marched down the street. And look at us now. Out | :14:32. | :14:39. | |
proud. There isn't a member certainly on these benches, that | :14:40. | :14:41. | |
isn't desperate to be assochated with the progress, as far as gay | :14:42. | :14:48. | |
rights is concerned. It is now very popular to be in favour of dquality | :14:49. | :14:53. | |
but it didn't used to be popular. What the bill six to do, thd | :14:54. | :14:58. | |
government is not doing this as a favour, not doing the peopld in | :14:59. | :15:03. | |
favour but doing this. The full marriage wasn't a favour. The | :15:04. | :15:07. | |
quality of adoption rights was not a favour. It is about correcthng our | :15:08. | :15:14. | |
mistakes of the past. Mr Deputy Speaker, imagine you are a xoung | :15:15. | :15:20. | |
person, thinking of coming out, and at six o'clock U-turn on yotr iPad, | :15:21. | :15:26. | |
and across Europe twitter thmeline comes the story of how todax's vote | :15:27. | :15:31. | |
goes. Imagine the house declined the opportunity to pass this bill, how | :15:32. | :15:36. | |
would that make you feel, what signal does it send to young people | :15:37. | :15:40. | |
across this country and arotnd the world, if we decline to pass this | :15:41. | :15:51. | |
bill just now? One young man to another. A gay man to a str`ight | :15:52. | :15:57. | |
man. LAUGHTER Who's who? Especially the colour | :15:58. | :16:05. | |
scheme. The point my honour`ble friend was making is the message | :16:06. | :16:08. | |
coming from some and other benches, the fact that living homosexuals | :16:09. | :16:14. | |
could still be classed as a risk of being a paedophile, and that is the | :16:15. | :16:18. | |
message that if we reject this bill and make homosexuals go through the | :16:19. | :16:24. | |
disregard process. He makes a very good point. I should clarifx Mr | :16:25. | :16:30. | |
Deputy Speaker and I am a g`y man. I would never have that clash of a | :16:31. | :16:37. | |
yellow LAN yard and a purpld tie! LAUGHTER | :16:38. | :16:44. | |
Mr Deputy Speaker, I wish to come to a conclusion. The people who went | :16:45. | :17:00. | |
through, the 16,000 people that the chair of the foreign affairs select | :17:01. | :17:04. | |
committee mentions, these are the Giants on whose shoulders wd stand, | :17:05. | :17:12. | |
and many, many others. And what an opportunity we have today to do the | :17:13. | :17:16. | |
right thing. And symbolism hs important in this. Rather than some | :17:17. | :17:22. | |
anonymous technical amendment in that place down there, which is even | :17:23. | :17:27. | |
more camp than this place down here, rather than that, a bill is | :17:28. | :17:31. | |
important, and where there `re concerns, genuine or otherwhse, it | :17:32. | :17:35. | |
has to be said, then the colmittee is the place to strengthen the bill. | :17:36. | :17:41. | |
Otherwise what is this placd for? A question I find myself asking quite | :17:42. | :17:48. | |
a lot actually. Mr Deputy Speaker, what I think we all want today is | :17:49. | :17:54. | |
for young people to read about this debate, watch this debate, `nd see | :17:55. | :18:00. | |
it pass, a strong and posithve message, that it is indeed OK to be | :18:01. | :18:09. | |
gay. Nick Herbert. Thank yot very much Mr Deputy Speaker, I understand | :18:10. | :18:13. | |
that an urgent question may be tabled at 11 o'clock so I whll | :18:14. | :18:18. | |
endeavour to be brief so th`t my remarks don't become truncated. What | :18:19. | :18:22. | |
I would first of all like to do is to congratulate the honourable | :18:23. | :18:24. | |
member for East Dumbartonshhre for bringing forward this measure, and | :18:25. | :18:28. | |
for the remarks he made, and for his excellent speech in support of his | :18:29. | :18:37. | |
bill. And the welcome what he has sought to do. It seems to md that | :18:38. | :18:43. | |
there is a general agreement in this house that great injustice was done | :18:44. | :18:50. | |
by laws which have since bedn repealed to gay men in the past and | :18:51. | :18:56. | |
that there is a great deal, a huge measure of regret for that | :18:57. | :19:00. | |
injustice, and a recognition that there are people who are sthll alive | :19:01. | :19:03. | |
who have suffered as a consdquence of that injustice. Further to that, | :19:04. | :19:09. | |
I think that there is a bro`d agreement, though it might not be | :19:10. | :19:14. | |
unanimous agreement, that it is right that not only should that | :19:15. | :19:21. | |
legislation have been repealed, in many cases some time ago, btt that | :19:22. | :19:27. | |
this house and the government should go further, and should extend a | :19:28. | :19:34. | |
pardon to those who were convicted of offences that we now belheve | :19:35. | :19:37. | |
should not have been crimin`l offences, because of the enormous | :19:38. | :19:44. | |
injustice that was done to them There is, it seems to me, no | :19:45. | :19:47. | |
disagreement between the benches opposite government about that | :19:48. | :19:53. | |
either. Nor with many of us on this side of the house who believe that | :19:54. | :19:57. | |
it is right in principle th`t such a pardon should be extended. H recall | :19:58. | :20:04. | |
being a minister in the Minhstry of Justice, along with my friend, the | :20:05. | :20:07. | |
member for Reigate at the thme when we were discussing the inithal | :20:08. | :20:13. | |
proposal that a specific pardon should be granted to Alan Ttring, | :20:14. | :20:18. | |
and we had those discussions with my right honourable member, thd member | :20:19. | :20:22. | |
for Rushcliffe, who was then the Justice Secretary. One can hardly | :20:23. | :20:26. | |
imagine a more humane or liberal member of Parliament than mx right | :20:27. | :20:34. | |
honourable friend, but he h`d then concerns about what the further | :20:35. | :20:38. | |
application of the principld that we might be about to embark on would | :20:39. | :20:42. | |
be. I think those were legitimate concerns, and I think there is a | :20:43. | :20:46. | |
legitimate debate about the extent to which it is possible to dmbark on | :20:47. | :20:51. | |
a process of revisionism, stch that we find ourselves in a position of | :20:52. | :20:56. | |
extending a general apology or pardon for all sorts of criles that | :20:57. | :21:03. | |
may have been committed a while ago, and the legislation that was enacted | :21:04. | :21:06. | |
before our time. But I think that honourable members on both sides of | :21:07. | :21:14. | |
the house have spoken with passion about why it is important that we | :21:15. | :21:20. | |
should take an attitude that says that there should be a sign`l or an | :21:21. | :21:26. | |
expression of regret. It is clearly important for the living th`t the | :21:27. | :21:30. | |
state recognises the injusthce that was done. But it is important to a | :21:31. | :21:38. | |
Brodic unity, and the honourable member for Rhondda spoke powerfully | :21:39. | :21:41. | |
about that the honourable mdmber for Glasgow too. It is important, | :21:42. | :21:47. | |
because in spite of the near completion of the legislative agenda | :21:48. | :21:53. | |
in this country at least, to ensure full equality for gay peopld, there | :21:54. | :22:01. | |
is still discrimination in our society, and in particular hn our | :22:02. | :22:04. | |
schools. There are young people who face prejudice and concern `bout the | :22:05. | :22:10. | |
fact that they may not be accepted in our society. And therefore the | :22:11. | :22:15. | |
signals which this house sends, which the government sends, are | :22:16. | :22:18. | |
immensely important. Now I would like to make an additional point, | :22:19. | :22:23. | |
which is that there is also the question of the signal we sdnd more | :22:24. | :22:28. | |
widely to the rest of the world I'm honoured to be the elected chairman | :22:29. | :22:30. | |
of the all-party Parliament`ry group on global LGBT writes, and the | :22:31. | :22:36. | |
honourable gentleman to Glasgow South is an officer of that group | :22:37. | :22:42. | |
too. And we are focused on the appalling breaches of human rights | :22:43. | :22:47. | |
which are increasingly being perpetrated in other countrhes | :22:48. | :22:50. | |
around the world, where acttally human rights are going backwards and | :22:51. | :22:53. | |
not forwards, where gay people are living and working in fear hn | :22:54. | :22:58. | |
countries for instance in stb Saharan Africa, in Russia and other | :22:59. | :23:04. | |
countries in Eastern Europe, and where progress needs to be lade to | :23:05. | :23:10. | |
secure equality and respect for human rights. And one of thd things | :23:11. | :23:15. | |
that we are often told, and indeed those people who are victimhsed by | :23:16. | :23:21. | |
these laws are often told is that these are laws that historically | :23:22. | :23:27. | |
over their origin to this place To laws, which were fashioned `nd | :23:28. | :23:32. | |
promoted eye this Parliament as part of our empire. I give way to the | :23:33. | :23:38. | |
honourable lady. But is that not why it is so utterly important that this | :23:39. | :23:43. | |
bill goes through in its own right, to send out that message and not | :23:44. | :23:49. | |
just a few lines of an amendment? The honourable lady has anthcipated | :23:50. | :23:54. | |
what I am about to say. I w`s explaining that I believe it is | :23:55. | :23:59. | |
important that this house sdnds the right signal with a general pardon, | :24:00. | :24:06. | |
because of the effect on thd living, because of those to whom an | :24:07. | :24:09. | |
injustice has been done, because of the way in which young people in | :24:10. | :24:13. | |
particular may anticipate how they will be treated, and becausd of the | :24:14. | :24:18. | |
signal that we may send globally about the importance of standing up | :24:19. | :24:21. | |
for human rights. Of course I give way to the Minister. I thank the | :24:22. | :24:26. | |
honourable member forgiving way the amendment that will be tabldd is not | :24:27. | :24:30. | |
just a few lines in a bill. Lord Sharkey is one of the most prominent | :24:31. | :24:36. | |
campaigners on this issue, has been campaigning for a long time, and the | :24:37. | :24:40. | |
announcement yesterday has `lready garnered global headlines and will | :24:41. | :24:45. | |
continue to do so when the `mendment has passed. I had said I hope to | :24:46. | :24:52. | |
complete my remarks by 11 o'clock and I can now see that is not going | :24:53. | :24:59. | |
to be possible, because what I want to say about the government's | :25:00. | :25:03. | |
position and position of my honourable friend is I think | :25:04. | :25:07. | |
important, and it is import`nt that we get a resolution to this matter. | :25:08. | :25:13. | |
Whatever the history of the last few days, it seems to me, and this was | :25:14. | :25:16. | |
the point I was trying to m`ke at the beginning of my remarks, that | :25:17. | :25:24. | |
there is a broad agreement `bout the necessity of this measure, the value | :25:25. | :25:27. | |
of it, and the importance of proceeding. And indeed therd is a | :25:28. | :25:30. | |
Conservative manifesto commhtment to do so. And after I resume, `s I hope | :25:31. | :25:36. | |
Mr Deputy Speaker I will be able to do, I would like to explain why I | :25:37. | :25:39. | |
therefore believe the bill should be allowed through to a second reading. | :25:40. | :25:46. | |
Order, order, we are now gohng to come to the urgent question from | :25:47. | :25:53. | |
Philip Davies. I will ask the Immigration Minister who will make a | :25:54. | :25:58. | |
statement on what age checks will be carried out on child refugeds to | :25:59. | :25:59. | |
ensure that they are childrdn. I welcome this opportunity to put on | :26:00. | :26:13. | |
record at the government position. We work closely with French | :26:14. | :26:15. | |
authorities to ensure the c`ses applying to come to the UK pualify | :26:16. | :26:22. | |
under Dublin. This includes an age assessment were necessary. @ll | :26:23. | :26:26. | |
individuals are referred to the UK authorities by the French | :26:27. | :26:32. | |
authorities, they are then interviewed by French and UK | :26:33. | :26:36. | |
officials. Were credible documentary evidence of age is not available and | :26:37. | :26:41. | |
where these children have fled war and persecution so there ard no | :26:42. | :26:46. | |
definitive documentary provds, we will use criteria including physical | :26:47. | :26:50. | |
appearance and demeanour to assess age as part of the interview | :26:51. | :26:55. | |
process. But officials are working in difficult circumstances hn Calais | :26:56. | :27:00. | |
to ensure vulnerable childrdn are safeguarded. There has been | :27:01. | :27:03. | |
significant media coverage over the last week questioning the appearance | :27:04. | :27:07. | |
of those admitted to the UK. I think we would all agree that teenagers | :27:08. | :27:14. | |
appearances are very widely and all agencies working in these | :27:15. | :27:16. | |
circumstances have the safety and welfare of young people in lind | :27:17. | :27:21. | |
This week has also reopened the old debate about the value of ddntal | :27:22. | :27:25. | |
x-rays at medical tests to determine the age of an individual. Is a good | :27:26. | :27:30. | |
different number of experts have spoken out against such checks. The | :27:31. | :27:34. | |
British dental Association has described them as inaccuratd, | :27:35. | :27:39. | |
inappropriate and unethical. The Royal College of paediatrichans said | :27:40. | :27:42. | |
the margin of error can somdtimes be as much as five years either side of | :27:43. | :27:48. | |
medical tests. Doctors of the world have called the idea unethical and | :27:49. | :27:55. | |
unnecessary. That is why thd Home Office does not use dental x-rays to | :27:56. | :27:58. | |
confront age of those seeking asylum. Legally cannot forcd anyone | :27:59. | :28:03. | |
to undergo such a check. Th`t is what officials are trained to assess | :28:04. | :28:06. | |
age and I want to be clear, where we believe someone is clearly over a | :28:07. | :28:12. | |
pain they will be refused. The information I have today suggests | :28:13. | :28:16. | |
that around 10% of cases referred to as on the spaces are being refused | :28:17. | :28:21. | |
in France. We have made significant progress to bring to the UK bus | :28:22. | :28:25. | |
children with family members. We are determined to get those children | :28:26. | :28:29. | |
here, but I call on all members of the House, the media and thd public | :28:30. | :28:32. | |
to respect the privacy of those vulnerable young people. I `m | :28:33. | :28:39. | |
grateful to the Minister for whom I have a great deal of respect and | :28:40. | :28:44. | |
admiration. Surely he cannot find it necessary to explain why it is | :28:45. | :28:49. | |
important that Chad refugees are actually children. We agreed to | :28:50. | :28:52. | |
check in Chad refugees and surely it is not too much to ask the | :28:53. | :28:55. | |
government to ensure that they are children. Clearly this is not the | :28:56. | :29:01. | |
case. People only have two CD pictures of the so-called child | :29:02. | :29:05. | |
refugees to say that many of them are not children. The Home Office | :29:06. | :29:12. | |
admitted that two thirds of people claiming to be child refugeds are | :29:13. | :29:18. | |
shown to be not children. Even the charities have had to accept this, | :29:19. | :29:30. | |
trying to explain. A large number of my constituents have contacted me to | :29:31. | :29:36. | |
say how angry they are that we are being taken for the rulers, taken | :29:37. | :29:41. | |
for a ride and our generosity is being abused. Does the Minister not | :29:42. | :29:45. | |
understand that unless a grhp is taken over this but it will do | :29:46. | :29:49. | |
irreparable damage to public confidence in the asylum system The | :29:50. | :29:53. | |
Minister said that to carry out dental checks would not onlx be | :29:54. | :29:58. | |
unethical but also unreliable. It actually says on the governlent | :29:59. | :30:03. | |
website under the UK visas `nd immigration section on assessing | :30:04. | :30:08. | |
age, it has a section on dental age assessments or x-ray reports. It | :30:09. | :30:13. | |
says, in some instances, applicants will submit reports from dental | :30:14. | :30:17. | |
consultants based on a detahled report of dental development. The | :30:18. | :30:21. | |
margin of error indeterminate age is approximately plus or -2 ye`rs. They | :30:22. | :30:26. | |
put The Royal College of paddiatrics and child health. It says this means | :30:27. | :30:33. | |
there will be cases where stch reports should be given considerable | :30:34. | :30:38. | |
weight, for example, becausd the Clinton age is within the possible | :30:39. | :30:42. | |
range. The Home Office are `lready sent on their website that dental | :30:43. | :30:46. | |
checks should be given conshderable weight. How on earth can thdy be | :30:47. | :30:58. | |
unreliable on an ethical st`ndard. What checks are being made by the | :30:59. | :31:03. | |
government and if somebody claims to be 14 did we just accept it and send | :31:04. | :31:08. | |
them to a local school with all the obvious safeguarding issues that | :31:09. | :31:11. | |
would be involved if they wdre actually adults? The governlent owes | :31:12. | :31:15. | |
the British public and genuhne child refugees a promise to get a grip on | :31:16. | :31:23. | |
this particular situation. Ly honourable friend needs to be aware | :31:24. | :31:28. | |
that both the Dublin regulation and section 67 of the immigration Act | :31:29. | :31:36. | |
2016 defines children as those under the age of 18. Indeed, a large | :31:37. | :31:40. | |
number of those in the camps are both male and 16 or 17 years old. We | :31:41. | :31:46. | |
have never tried to mislead anyone of that particular fact. Thd | :31:47. | :31:51. | |
criteria used at this stage for the Dublin children is those with family | :31:52. | :31:55. | |
connections in the UK and those are our priority. Those are the ones | :31:56. | :31:59. | |
being taught across this wedk. For the children will be put across | :32:00. | :32:03. | |
Some of the assessment will enable further work to be done, including | :32:04. | :32:08. | |
fingerprinting. If there ard cases where the person has been brought to | :32:09. | :32:12. | |
the attention of the Europe`n immigration authorities werd applied | :32:13. | :32:15. | |
for a visa somewhere in the world to come to the UK will have further | :32:16. | :32:20. | |
information. Can I point out, the age issue can arise because of Home | :32:21. | :32:26. | |
Office concerns about the claimed age where because of the individual | :32:27. | :32:29. | |
does not accept the assessmdnt process. Word this. There whll be a | :32:30. | :32:35. | |
reference to a children's sdrvices Department for an age assessment. | :32:36. | :32:38. | |
They will be treated as a child by the outcome is worded. Local | :32:39. | :32:43. | |
authorities have a statutorx duty to ensure and promote the welf`re of | :32:44. | :32:48. | |
children under section 11 of the Children Act 2000 for regardless of | :32:49. | :32:51. | |
their immigration status or nationality. This safeguards of the | :32:52. | :32:55. | |
individual is required to undergo an age assessment and super chhldren in | :32:56. | :32:58. | |
the current population from the presence of an adult being placed in | :32:59. | :33:04. | |
the symbolism accommodation. I want to start by welcoming refugdes who | :33:05. | :33:09. | |
have entered Britain in last few days to their new home. I hope that | :33:10. | :33:15. | |
our country will provide thdm with a safe space which enables thdm to put | :33:16. | :33:20. | |
behind them the dramas and the difficulties they have faced. | :33:21. | :33:26. | |
Welcome to Britain. The govdrnment committed to taking unaccompanied | :33:27. | :33:30. | |
child refugees in May. The Home Office have had five months to | :33:31. | :33:35. | |
assess the age of the young people come up five months in which | :33:36. | :33:39. | |
refugees have had to live their lives in limbo and conditions which | :33:40. | :33:43. | |
none of us with like to livd in and certainly not have our children live | :33:44. | :33:48. | |
in. I am sure the Minister can assure the House that this delay is | :33:49. | :33:51. | |
a result of the Home Office carefully assessing the age of young | :33:52. | :34:00. | |
people we are granting to. Durope all have warned that at least 1 ,000 | :34:01. | :34:05. | |
unaccompanied child refugees have gone missing since entering Europe | :34:06. | :34:09. | |
after fleeing the most terrhble political situation in Syri` and | :34:10. | :34:14. | |
elsewhere in North Africa and the Middle East. Citizens UK thhnk there | :34:15. | :34:20. | |
are at least 54 unaccompanidd girls, mainly Eritrean, in the calorie | :34:21. | :34:26. | |
count and they are eligible to enter under the dubs amendment. These are | :34:27. | :34:30. | |
children who have had their home, their parents, their entire lives | :34:31. | :34:35. | |
taken away from them and thdy are in real danger. Does the Minister agree | :34:36. | :34:45. | |
with me that our resolve to give sanctuary and protection to | :34:46. | :34:46. | |
unaccompanied child refugees must remain undiminished, we cannot | :34:47. | :34:49. | |
succumb to compassion fatigte? I know some members opposite of | :34:50. | :34:53. | |
conflict dental checks to ddtermine the age of children coming over but | :34:54. | :34:57. | |
the Journal of forensic scidnce found that when it comes to | :34:58. | :35:01. | |
determine if someone is aged between 17 and 19 years of age, dental | :35:02. | :35:07. | |
checks are wrong up to 50% of the time. 50% of the time. The British | :35:08. | :35:13. | |
dental Association, whose mdmbers would presumably have to carry out | :35:14. | :35:17. | |
these checks, has said they would be inappropriate and unethical. Does | :35:18. | :35:21. | |
the Minister agree with me that calling for dental checks is an | :35:22. | :35:26. | |
unworkable red herring? I al pleased that the government are comlitted to | :35:27. | :35:32. | |
helping unaccompanied child refugees and 20,000 Syrian refugees by 2 20, | :35:33. | :35:36. | |
although given the scale of the refugee crisis, we can and should do | :35:37. | :35:42. | |
more. There will be challenges along the way, things will not go | :35:43. | :35:46. | |
perfectly, but helping people in dire need and they are is the right | :35:47. | :35:53. | |
thing to do. When we meet bombs in the road in this place and hn other | :35:54. | :35:57. | |
positions of power, we should keep it calm head and continue to offer a | :35:58. | :36:02. | |
welcoming embrace to those who are fleeing the most desperate of | :36:03. | :36:10. | |
circumstances. The points m`de by the honourable lady oppositd | :36:11. | :36:14. | |
encapsulate the vast majority of the United Kingdom's view about the | :36:15. | :36:18. | |
compassion we need and a legal responsibility to step up to the | :36:19. | :36:22. | |
mark to ensure that vulnerable children in these camps are looked | :36:23. | :36:27. | |
after as best as possible. Ht is in the joint interests of the Tnited | :36:28. | :36:30. | |
Kingdom and the French republic that this cup is removed and in the | :36:31. | :36:35. | |
interest of the people in that camp. I must make it clear that nobody | :36:36. | :36:38. | |
needs to be in that camp. The French have facilities for people who can | :36:39. | :36:42. | |
leave the camp and large nulbers have left the camp. I have covered | :36:43. | :36:48. | |
the point on the dental checks. One additional point I would make and it | :36:49. | :36:52. | |
is something the Milton -- the media have failed to grasp, we have two | :36:53. | :36:57. | |
distinct categories of children We have the Dublin three children, they | :36:58. | :37:02. | |
qualify because they have ftn here. We have prioritised them and then we | :37:03. | :37:07. | |
have children who qualify under the dubs amendment. That is a criteria | :37:08. | :37:11. | |
of where their needs will bd best served and I can assure the House | :37:12. | :37:14. | |
that we will prioritise the most vulnerable. The undertakings, those | :37:15. | :37:19. | |
who are vulnerable for other reasons, to ensure that will happen. | :37:20. | :37:24. | |
They will not process as quhckly. We need to ensure they are safd and | :37:25. | :37:29. | |
ensure we live up to the colmitments this government has made whdn it | :37:30. | :37:36. | |
accepted the dubs amendment. My constituents are very worridd about | :37:37. | :37:39. | |
migrant children. Can buy honourable friend confirm that the Homd Office | :37:40. | :37:44. | |
is working closely with NGOs and the local authorities to identify and | :37:45. | :37:51. | |
resettle children in Cali? The role of NGOs are vital because m`ny of | :37:52. | :37:55. | |
those in the camps don't few people in uniform or people in authority in | :37:56. | :38:01. | |
the same way we do. Those charities, the British Red Cross, who have | :38:02. | :38:09. | |
helped bring children across. They have stepped up to the mark in | :38:10. | :38:12. | |
providing accommodation for children before they are moved on. NGOs are | :38:13. | :38:17. | |
vital and we appreciate the efforts they are making. Working with the UK | :38:18. | :38:21. | |
and French authorities to n`ture with discharge obligations. The Home | :38:22. | :38:27. | |
Office is to be commended for finally moving to process children | :38:28. | :38:34. | |
from the Calle camps, coverdd by our legal obligations. I am verx | :38:35. | :38:40. | |
grateful to the Home Secret`ry for giving me a full update on what has | :38:41. | :38:44. | |
been happening this week and I am proud that many of these chhldren | :38:45. | :38:49. | |
coming from Calais will be welcomed in Scotland and I can assurd the | :38:50. | :38:52. | |
House they will be most welcome there. An update on the numbers | :38:53. | :39:00. | |
being processed would be appreciated and I wonder if the Minister can | :39:01. | :39:03. | |
confirm that will be made available? I have been to these camps `t Calais | :39:04. | :39:10. | |
and I have witnessed the inhumane conditions. To impose invashve | :39:11. | :39:15. | |
treatment now would be a dereliction of UK Government moral duty and I am | :39:16. | :39:18. | |
happy to hear from the ministers that the government is listdning to | :39:19. | :39:22. | |
expert advice and not giving in to the unpleasant pressure he hs | :39:23. | :39:24. | |
receiving from some on his backbenchers. Children at C`lais | :39:25. | :39:29. | |
have come from some of the lost difficult and unsafe parts of the | :39:30. | :39:34. | |
world. In some respects, thd instability from which they have a | :39:35. | :39:36. | |
third has been caused by fidld British foreign policy. Somd of them | :39:37. | :39:43. | |
have, in fact, grown old in the camp waiting to be processed, but that | :39:44. | :39:48. | |
should not be held against them As the Minister said, the definition of | :39:49. | :39:51. | |
a child is under the age of 18 and anyone familiar with childrdn will | :39:52. | :39:56. | |
know that a young man in his teens, under the age of 18, separated from | :39:57. | :40:03. | |
his parents, is a vulnerabld person. Mr Deputy Speaker, I regret that | :40:04. | :40:06. | |
this question and some of the stuff we have seen in the tabloids and | :40:07. | :40:09. | |
some of the behaviour from lembers of the audience in question Time | :40:10. | :40:13. | |
last night is symptomatic of the xenophobia that has arisen hn this | :40:14. | :40:18. | |
country since the referendul. We are united in our condemnation of | :40:19. | :40:22. | |
homophobia. What is the govdrnment doing to quell the rising thde of | :40:23. | :40:26. | |
xenophobia in this country `nd what will the Minister do to challenge | :40:27. | :40:30. | |
for permission in the press and to camp and the doubts about how these | :40:31. | :40:34. | |
children will be treated whdn they arrive here? The children arriving | :40:35. | :40:39. | |
under Dublin three, those whth family here, you would expect the | :40:40. | :40:44. | |
age profile of those to reflect the overall age profile in the camp | :40:45. | :40:48. | |
which is older children in lany ways, but under Dublin we are | :40:49. | :40:53. | |
looking to encourage the most vulnerable to come forward `nd that | :40:54. | :40:58. | |
would be the younger childrdn. If I could give an update on our progress | :40:59. | :41:04. | |
under the Dublin regulation, over 140 unaccompanied asylum sedking | :41:05. | :41:07. | |
children have come from Europe and been accepted for transfer to the UK | :41:08. | :41:11. | |
under the family reunion provisions, of which 80 are from France. | :41:12. | :41:22. | |
Can I join her in condemning any xenophobia, that is not somdthing in | :41:23. | :41:35. | |
the British or the Scottish psyche. It is to be condemned right across | :41:36. | :41:40. | |
the house. Mr Deputy Speaker can the Minister confirm what specific | :41:41. | :41:43. | |
actions are being taken by the UK and French security forces to stop | :41:44. | :41:48. | |
criminal gangs from exploithng vulnerable people, in particular | :41:49. | :41:56. | |
children, in Calais? It is certainly a matter of great concern, people | :41:57. | :42:00. | |
traffickers are in these calps. The best way to curtail the acthons of | :42:01. | :42:03. | |
these people is to dismantld the camp and dispersed the people around | :42:04. | :42:06. | |
the country where they are less able to be targeted. I am pleased that | :42:07. | :42:12. | |
the Home Office working with our French counterparts have made a | :42:13. | :42:15. | |
number of successes, in terls of arrest, where people trafficking is | :42:16. | :42:18. | |
going on, and that is something that will continue to keep the pressure | :42:19. | :42:24. | |
up on. My constituent Norman that has sent me an extract this morning | :42:25. | :42:28. | |
from the British medical Jotrnal which says, and I quote, medical | :42:29. | :42:32. | |
estimation of age is still inaccurate and the results `re on | :42:33. | :42:36. | |
arrival, and said age variations have standard deviations of more | :42:37. | :42:40. | |
than 12 months and limited by discrepancies, racial discrdpancies | :42:41. | :42:45. | |
and concluding ethically it is hard to justify treating someone as an | :42:46. | :42:51. | |
adult based on such unreliable data. Does the Minister agree? Thd | :42:52. | :42:54. | |
honourable gentleman is absolutely right. All the August medic`l bodies | :42:55. | :42:59. | |
I quoted, dental bodies I qtoted, made it clear that you cannot use | :43:00. | :43:04. | |
medical or dental evidence `s a way of determining age, and indded my | :43:05. | :43:07. | |
own wisdom teeth didn't comd down until quite late in life. In many | :43:08. | :43:13. | |
cases, these young people h`ve not enjoy the same levels of nutrition | :43:14. | :43:16. | |
we have, so once again their stages of growth may vary. So I wotld | :43:17. | :43:21. | |
underline the fact that all of the evidence indicates you cannot use | :43:22. | :43:26. | |
this method. If a determination of age is necessary, there is ` process | :43:27. | :43:34. | |
with two social workers, it takes about 28 days, and that method is | :43:35. | :43:38. | |
used by social services offdred on a country, that cannot be dond in the | :43:39. | :43:41. | |
timescales. Even if we could do it on French territory. I welcome the | :43:42. | :43:47. | |
comments the Minister has m`de so far. What will be in the public s | :43:48. | :43:53. | |
mind is what they are seeing in the media against what we are sdeing | :43:54. | :43:56. | |
today. What work is the Homd Office going to do to try to reasstre the | :43:57. | :44:02. | |
public about those we are hopping? Certainly we have all seen the | :44:03. | :44:05. | |
pictures from the camps, -- those we are helping. The pictures from the | :44:06. | :44:09. | |
camps and the terrible condhtions both young people and adults are | :44:10. | :44:13. | |
having to India. I know that the wishes of the vast majority of the | :44:14. | :44:19. | |
British people is to ensure that if we do have the responsible T, then | :44:20. | :44:24. | |
we should actually step up to the mark and ensure that those children | :44:25. | :44:30. | |
are brought to a place of s`fety in the UK and working with French | :44:31. | :44:32. | |
colleagues, that is what we intend to do. I also welcome the comments | :44:33. | :44:37. | |
of Minister. In response to a question that shows not onlx a lack | :44:38. | :44:41. | |
of compassion but a fundamental lack of understanding of the fact that | :44:42. | :44:43. | |
these young people have had to grow up beyond their years because they | :44:44. | :44:47. | |
are children who have had their childhood Rob from them and have to | :44:48. | :44:51. | |
fend for themselves. I asked the minister if you would agree with me | :44:52. | :44:53. | |
on that point and also if the Minister can do everything he | :44:54. | :44:57. | |
possibly can in this departlent to ensure that these children do not | :44:58. | :45:03. | |
grow old waiting to be procdssed. Certainly the previous Dublhn | :45:04. | :45:12. | |
process did take some weeks, but given the timescale of the projected | :45:13. | :45:16. | |
clearance, it is important that we have actually accelerate th`t | :45:17. | :45:19. | |
process to make sure the chhldren can be processed and I am pleased we | :45:20. | :45:23. | |
are doing that. Can I pay tribute to our Home Office staff who h`ve been | :45:24. | :45:26. | |
there in very difficult conditions to deliver that promise. Can my | :45:27. | :45:32. | |
right honourable friend ple`se explain to the house the process by | :45:33. | :45:35. | |
which the government works with the Italian, French, Greek governance, | :45:36. | :45:41. | |
as well as NGOs, to identifx and speed up the process of bringing in | :45:42. | :45:47. | |
child refugees when it is in their best interest? The Dublin process is | :45:48. | :45:54. | |
relatively simple. It isn't just children who may -- has intdrest may | :45:55. | :46:01. | |
be best served within the UK, it applies to all European famhlies and | :46:02. | :46:04. | |
a number of transfers have taken place. Thank you very much Lr Deputy | :46:05. | :46:10. | |
Speaker. The media circus over the past few days has not just been | :46:11. | :46:14. | |
distasteful, it has been downright dangerous, and the media exposure | :46:15. | :46:18. | |
will serve to further fanned the flames of intolerance, and hs | :46:19. | :46:22. | |
massively irresponsible at ` time of raising hate crime in England. What | :46:23. | :46:28. | |
exactly is the Home Office doing to protect the identities of vtlnerable | :46:29. | :46:30. | |
refugees and in particular child refugees? Certainly there wdre some | :46:31. | :46:37. | |
pictures in the press of chhldren with blanket over their head, which | :46:38. | :46:41. | |
was specifically to protect their identity as children. I havd | :46:42. | :46:46. | |
confidence in the British pdople, in their compassion and their wish to | :46:47. | :46:50. | |
support us in what we are doing and I think a small minority either in | :46:51. | :46:54. | |
the media or noises off shotld not be listened to. Can I pay tribute to | :46:55. | :46:59. | |
my honourable friend and his department and all the work he is | :47:00. | :47:02. | |
doing to help those most vulnerable children but I was just wondering if | :47:03. | :47:06. | |
you could update the house on what this government has offered | :47:07. | :47:08. | |
assistance to the French government to clear the camp at Calais? We are | :47:09. | :47:16. | |
working very closely with the French government, and where resources are | :47:17. | :47:21. | |
needed, we are ensuring we can help wherever we can. My right honourable | :47:22. | :47:24. | |
friend the Home Secretary h`s met with her opposite number on a number | :47:25. | :47:27. | |
of occasions. We are working very closely with the French. It is in | :47:28. | :47:30. | |
our common interest to ensure that that camp is cleared, not jtst | :47:31. | :47:35. | |
because of the people there that because of the pull factor of people | :47:36. | :47:40. | |
who may be thinking about m`king that dangerous journey across the | :47:41. | :47:45. | |
Mediterranean. First overall can I welcome the measured approach which | :47:46. | :47:48. | |
the government minister has taken in his response, and questioned | :47:49. | :47:52. | |
seriously the integrity of the honourable member on the backbenches | :47:53. | :47:57. | |
who has the audacity to question... Sorry. The macro I think we all had | :47:58. | :48:02. | |
integrity in this house and we're not going to change it. Minhster if | :48:03. | :48:06. | |
you can pick something out of that, otherwise move on. | :48:07. | :48:15. | |
Thank you Mr Deputy Speaker, I'm grateful to my honourable friend for | :48:16. | :48:19. | |
the information he has given to the house this morning. Could I ask him | :48:20. | :48:26. | |
whether child refugees are being admitted because they have family | :48:27. | :48:32. | |
ties in the UK, our checks lade with their families here in this country | :48:33. | :48:36. | |
if there are any doubts abott their age, and is the government giving a | :48:37. | :48:40. | |
record of the ages of all the children who are being admitted and | :48:41. | :48:48. | |
will this be published? Jenner we are certainly keeping records of the | :48:49. | :48:53. | |
children and when they arrive at lunar house for processing, a | :48:54. | :48:57. | |
terrible word, the initial welcome they get, they then move onto | :48:58. | :49:04. | |
temporary holding facilities around the country before being retnited | :49:05. | :49:08. | |
with their families and all the necessary social services checks | :49:09. | :49:14. | |
will be carried out. Can thd Minister expand and provide a bit | :49:15. | :49:18. | |
more detail on exactly what this government is doing to help protect | :49:19. | :49:21. | |
honourable people and migrant children across Europe and the | :49:22. | :49:27. | |
Balkans? Certainly as the previous Prime Minister announced at this | :49:28. | :49:29. | |
dispatch box, it is very important that we are not distracted by the | :49:30. | :49:35. | |
events in Calais and around Europe from the real need, which is in the | :49:36. | :49:39. | |
refugee camps in the war zones and countries around the world zones. I | :49:40. | :49:42. | |
am very pleased that we havd the second biggest donor and we working | :49:43. | :49:46. | |
very closely to ensure that people there get help, and of course we | :49:47. | :49:50. | |
have the programme for bringing 20,000 people from across those | :49:51. | :49:54. | |
areas. They are the most vulnerable. It is not necessarily the c`se that | :49:55. | :49:59. | |
those who can make the case -- the journey are the most vulner`ble and | :50:00. | :50:02. | |
that is the right course I believe will stop can you insure th`t | :50:03. | :50:08. | |
safeguarding checks are in place fully and they will be kept safely? | :50:09. | :50:15. | |
Absolutely. Home Office offhcials with local government social service | :50:16. | :50:17. | |
officials will make sure we discharge Culliver responsible at | :50:18. | :50:23. | |
ease in terms of protecting the children. Many constituents in the | :50:24. | :50:26. | |
Calder Valley have contacted me wanting to know why when we have | :50:27. | :50:29. | |
said we are going to take Gdorgia from the jungle in Calais, that we | :50:30. | :50:32. | |
are actually taking young mdn are not young girls? Can my honourable | :50:33. | :50:39. | |
friend confirm that the onlx unaccompanied children that is those | :50:40. | :50:40. | |
under 18 in Calais at the jungle are in fact a | :50:41. | :50:58. | |
young men? 90% of those in the camps who are children are young len. And | :50:59. | :51:01. | |
it is important that as we love to the next phase that will be younger | :51:02. | :51:07. | |
children and those at most risk We now come to reopening the ddbate, | :51:08. | :51:11. | |
Nick Herbert to continue. Thank you very much, Mr Deputy Speaker. As I | :51:12. | :51:16. | |
was saying, it seems to me there is no difference between the government | :51:17. | :51:20. | |
and the honourable member for East Dunbartonshire as to the intention | :51:21. | :51:24. | |
of this bill, which is in rdlation to those who are living, and to whom | :51:25. | :51:31. | |
and injustice has been done, they should be pardoned, but the | :51:32. | :51:39. | |
intention is not the pardon those who committed offences that would | :51:40. | :51:45. | |
still be criminal offences today. There is now disagreement bdtween | :51:46. | :51:48. | |
the government and the honotrable member and other honourable members | :51:49. | :51:52. | |
in this house as to the intdntion. The only disagreement is to the | :51:53. | :51:59. | |
actual effect of the bill's proposals, and the honourable member | :52:00. | :52:02. | |
has suggested a specific mechanism for ensuring that those who should | :52:03. | :52:09. | |
not make use of a pardon in an improper manner, because it should | :52:10. | :52:13. | |
not apply under the terms of his bill, could not do so because the | :52:14. | :52:18. | |
onus of proof would be on them to show that they had not commhtted | :52:19. | :52:26. | |
well but now still be an offence. In those circumstances, it seels to me | :52:27. | :52:30. | |
to be right, especially givdn that this was a bill that in the first | :52:31. | :52:35. | |
place the government encour`ge the honourable member to bring forward | :52:36. | :52:40. | |
after his success in the prhvate member's bill ballot, it wotld seem | :52:41. | :52:45. | |
to me to be entirely right `nd proper that the bill was given a | :52:46. | :52:50. | |
second reading today, procedded to committee, where these diffdrences | :52:51. | :52:56. | |
in legal effect could properly be ironed out. Ajax said that the | :52:57. | :53:02. | |
government, in bringing forward its proposals a very short time ago | :53:03. | :53:07. | |
intends to do broadly the s`me thing in fulfilment of its manifesto | :53:08. | :53:11. | |
commitment that the honourable gentleman's bill sought to do, but I | :53:12. | :53:16. | |
also understand why the honourable gentleman feels that his Bill should | :53:17. | :53:20. | |
receive a second reading and that there should be further discussion | :53:21. | :53:26. | |
about the particular effects that his Bill proposes, and indedd I | :53:27. | :53:30. | |
don't think it was, in general is a very good way to proceed th`t the | :53:31. | :53:34. | |
government, having originally proposed a bill having encotraged | :53:35. | :53:39. | |
it, then a couple of days bdforehand brings forward its own alternative | :53:40. | :53:42. | |
measures. If there has been some miss understanding or if brdakdown | :53:43. | :53:47. | |
of communication, then I wotld urge on both sides that communic`tion is | :53:48. | :53:50. | |
restored, and it would seem to me that the best thing and the proper | :53:51. | :53:56. | |
thing would be to have thesd discussions in committee, so that | :53:57. | :54:03. | |
legitimate discussion about the arcane provisions are exerchsed But | :54:04. | :54:06. | |
I would just say, finally, H give way to the honourable... Very | :54:07. | :54:11. | |
quickly Mr Deputy Speaker, can I confirm that if the governmdnt | :54:12. | :54:15. | |
honours its original promisd to me and supports this, I will bd very | :54:16. | :54:19. | |
happy to engage with them in committee with any concerns that | :54:20. | :54:25. | |
they have. I'm sure that thd government will have heard that | :54:26. | :54:29. | |
concern. What I think would be a pity would be if there was `ny | :54:30. | :54:36. | |
attempt by other honourable members in this house who do not sh`re what | :54:37. | :54:41. | |
I believe is the view of thd majority of those present today that | :54:42. | :54:47. | |
this bill and its general provision should proceed, that in gendral it | :54:48. | :54:52. | |
is right that people should be pardoned, and do not accept the | :54:53. | :54:54. | |
Conservative Party's manifesto commitment to secure that wdre | :54:55. | :55:00. | |
because of this particular disagreement over the legal effect | :55:01. | :55:04. | |
of the honourable gentleman's Bill given an excuse not to allow the | :55:05. | :55:09. | |
bill not to proceed. There hs, I repeat, no disagreement as to the | :55:10. | :55:13. | |
intention of the honourable gentleman's Bill, it is the same as | :55:14. | :55:18. | |
the government's intention. There will be people listening to this | :55:19. | :55:22. | |
debate, and the signal that this House of Commons sends on these | :55:23. | :55:27. | |
matters is immensely import`nt. As I said before the urgent question it | :55:28. | :55:30. | |
is important to those who are still living, in terms of the Justice that | :55:31. | :55:35. | |
should be done to them when a great injustice was done before, ht is | :55:36. | :55:38. | |
important towards micro-manx young people who are struggling whth their | :55:39. | :55:40. | |
own sexuality and coming to terms with it, and want to ensure | :55:41. | :55:45. | |
acceptance today, it is important globally for the message th`t this | :55:46. | :55:50. | |
country sends out to the rest of the world that the legislation we pass | :55:51. | :55:54. | |
and promoted in an age gone by not only was wrong then that is capable | :55:55. | :55:57. | |
of still doing great injusthce today. And we should therefore be | :55:58. | :56:03. | |
atoning for that in a very clear manner on and we should not allow | :56:04. | :56:08. | |
that message that we wish to send all of these groups of people to be | :56:09. | :56:14. | |
distorted. This House of Colmons should stand for justice, for | :56:15. | :56:20. | |
equality and we should stand for the principle that where an injtstice | :56:21. | :56:23. | |
was done in the past, we should recognise that clearly and | :56:24. | :56:27. | |
unequivocally, and that is why this bill should be given a second | :56:28. | :56:28. | |
reading. Can I congratulate my honourable | :56:29. | :56:40. | |
friend and colleague for East Dunbartonshire for bringing this | :56:41. | :56:43. | |
important pill that is very essential Bill to parliament? There | :56:44. | :56:54. | |
has been huge progress in allowing LGBT Scotland has become thd best | :56:55. | :57:01. | |
country in Europe for gay rhghts with the UK close behind. Wd must | :57:02. | :57:07. | |
never forget the appalling way the LGBT people have been treatdd in the | :57:08. | :57:13. | |
UK throughout history. The criminalisation of thousands of gay | :57:14. | :57:17. | |
and bisexual men who were c`utioned, convicted, imprisoned and even | :57:18. | :57:23. | |
castrated by the homophobic laws which banned sex between consult -- | :57:24. | :57:30. | |
consenting adult men. We must now take ownership and apologisd for | :57:31. | :57:34. | |
this. The namesake of this Bill Alan Turing, was a mathemathcian, | :57:35. | :57:39. | |
competing pioneer and code broker whose work cracking the Enigma code | :57:40. | :57:43. | |
is said to have shortened World War II by four years. He lost hhs job | :57:44. | :57:48. | |
with the Secret Service aftdr being convicted for gross indecency and | :57:49. | :57:53. | |
was chemically castrated. As a result he took his own life two | :57:54. | :58:00. | |
years later in 1954. In 2013, he was granted a posthumous royal pardon, | :58:01. | :58:05. | |
61 years after he had been charged at a Manchester police stathon. That | :58:06. | :58:11. | |
is all good but it is both perverse and a cheering has been the only | :58:12. | :58:17. | |
person to have been pardoned. I am sure no one doubts that there needs | :58:18. | :58:21. | |
to be wider action on this latter. This government has a duty to | :58:22. | :58:26. | |
everybody convicted under the gross indecency law to pardon thel from | :58:27. | :58:30. | |
these historic, for the grillings. It is thought that at least 49, 00 | :58:31. | :58:35. | |
other gay and bisexual men were convicted until on sexualitx was | :58:36. | :58:44. | |
deemed to be not illegal in 196 . Each of these was unfairly | :58:45. | :58:46. | |
persecuted and many suffered similarly offer feeds to Al`n | :58:47. | :58:51. | |
Turing. 16,000 of these men are still alive today. Many found | :58:52. | :58:57. | |
themselves outed, interrogated and ostracised from society over their | :58:58. | :59:00. | |
sexuality and suffered long lasting psychological damage. From what I | :59:01. | :59:06. | |
understand, there is currently a disregard process. Men can `pply to | :59:07. | :59:10. | |
have their record cleared which removes any mention of an offence | :59:11. | :59:16. | |
from criminal record checks. This is not good enough. Although these men | :59:17. | :59:20. | |
will still have to apply, this Bill will give a pocket pardon to all men | :59:21. | :59:24. | |
who have lived their life w`s an unfair criminal conviction. | :59:25. | :59:30. | |
Stonewall, the leading LGBT charity has given full support for the | :59:31. | :59:33. | |
measures laid out in the Bill we are debating today. It makes a stronger | :59:34. | :59:38. | |
statement on the seriousness of the commitment of the government in this | :59:39. | :59:43. | |
area of social life. If we `re to take action in this area and provide | :59:44. | :59:48. | |
leadership, it is best to do so any wholehearted way with the ftll | :59:49. | :59:52. | |
backing of the law. I would personally go further and c`ll on | :59:53. | :59:55. | |
the prime ministers to make a full public apology to LGBT individuals | :59:56. | :59:59. | |
in the United Kingdom for the injustice they have suffered. | :00:00. | :00:06. | |
Nothing we do can fully makd amends for the cruel discrimination these | :00:07. | :00:10. | |
men have suffered and I hopd this Bill goes some way to giving a sense | :00:11. | :00:14. | |
of closure for these men and their families. It is a pleasure to follow | :00:15. | :00:23. | |
the honourable member for Dtndee West in this debate. I hope you | :00:24. | :00:30. | |
won't mind me briefly marking the 50th anniversary of the Aberfan | :00:31. | :00:36. | |
disaster, to pay tribute to those residents in Charleston in ly own | :00:37. | :00:40. | |
constituency, who offered their own homes up and hospitality to not only | :00:41. | :00:44. | |
give people somewhere to go to, but respite away from the scene for so | :00:45. | :00:49. | |
many people had lost their lives and a plaque still commemorates that | :00:50. | :00:55. | |
this day. I would like to congratulate the honourable member | :00:56. | :01:00. | |
in bringing this Bill to thd House. Whatever the outcome of the debate, | :01:01. | :01:04. | |
we have seen a major change which was announced yesterday by the | :01:05. | :01:09. | |
government that will finallx see people be viewed as innocent, that | :01:10. | :01:14. | |
they were not committing a criminal offence as we would know it today. | :01:15. | :01:18. | |
In his introduction he talkdd about how, when he was born, it w`s a | :01:19. | :01:24. | |
criminal offence. Even when I was born it was still a criminal offence | :01:25. | :01:29. | |
to be who you are in Scotland and in Northern Ireland. It was only in | :01:30. | :01:35. | |
1982, 15 years after decriminalisation in England, that | :01:36. | :01:39. | |
similar provisions finally came into effect in Northern Ireland. Could | :01:40. | :01:46. | |
also say some territories that our flag were still implying laws of | :01:47. | :01:57. | |
this nature until the 1990s. It beggars belief that people still | :01:58. | :02:03. | |
thought that was right. For me, we could look back through history and | :02:04. | :02:07. | |
Liberty Hall range of offences that we would say are not fences. For | :02:08. | :02:12. | |
example, we do not believe there is anyone in our constituencies tonight | :02:13. | :02:15. | |
practising as it which, tryhng to make someone ill. Let's be clear, | :02:16. | :02:27. | |
the reason we know those convictions are pagan nonsense, that people were | :02:28. | :02:33. | |
sent to the gallows for somdthing which was nonsense and based on fear | :02:34. | :02:38. | |
and hysteria. The differencd with these offences is that it is where | :02:39. | :02:45. | |
people are not gay. That is who they are. In the past it would h`ve been | :02:46. | :02:50. | |
a criminal offence. The laws we were referring to, there are people | :02:51. | :03:02. | |
alive, ... That is why, for me, having this type of pardon lakes | :03:03. | :03:09. | |
sense. I have felt a bit of the debate has danced around thd head of | :03:10. | :03:16. | |
a pin. We have got an argumdnt that it pardon should be given btt it | :03:17. | :03:21. | |
will only be replicated on criminal record checks. First is a p`rdon | :03:22. | :03:27. | |
that will be granted after the removal from criminal record checks. | :03:28. | :03:31. | |
We would all agree that crilinal record checks have to be accurate | :03:32. | :03:37. | |
and listening to The Member For East Dunbartonshire, I have found some of | :03:38. | :03:41. | |
the argument on both sides rather interesting when comparing them and | :03:42. | :03:47. | |
where we come to. Your input arguments and haven't got a copy of | :03:48. | :03:52. | |
the Bill, there is no suggestion from anyone that what is sthll a | :03:53. | :03:58. | |
criminal offence today should not remain on someone's record. The | :03:59. | :04:03. | |
debate is how we get there. I very much welcome the fact that the | :04:04. | :04:08. | |
government will probably give the quickest way of getting there in | :04:09. | :04:11. | |
terms of a Bill which is in the Lords and will come back here. I | :04:12. | :04:16. | |
also think in terms of commdnting on the Bill before us today, nobody is | :04:17. | :04:20. | |
suggesting that someone shotld be able to claim they would have been | :04:21. | :04:24. | |
innocent of an offence that would still be an offence to this day | :04:25. | :04:31. | |
Particularly where we have lore modern legislation in relathon to | :04:32. | :04:34. | |
those in positions of authority over those aged 16 and 17 were, puite | :04:35. | :04:40. | |
bizarrely, given the hysterha around the impact on young boys thdre | :04:41. | :04:46. | |
wasn't any legislation in the 1 50s that made it an offence for a | :04:47. | :04:51. | |
teacher to basically be a predator for a 16 or 17-year-old fem`le | :04:52. | :04:55. | |
student or a student of the opposite sex. Yet, there was an offence, to | :04:56. | :05:04. | |
refer to the then Labour government, it could sense that when ch`nging | :05:05. | :05:07. | |
the age of consent, that anomaly was rated that it was equally as bad | :05:08. | :05:12. | |
that a 30 or 40-year-old chhldren would pray and a member of the | :05:13. | :05:15. | |
opposite sex as it would soleone of their own sex. They were ushng their | :05:16. | :05:20. | |
position to abuse, not the type of relationship. It is also about | :05:21. | :05:27. | |
getting back into the past `bout why some people would say white apply to | :05:28. | :05:33. | |
offences Bill 1967. The offdnces before and in six to seven were | :05:34. | :05:40. | |
clearly nonsense. Another mdmber made the point about the re`ctions | :05:41. | :05:45. | |
and behaviour from the police. In some cases, there were more | :05:46. | :05:50. | |
prosecutions after 1967 then there had been before. Some forces did | :05:51. | :05:56. | |
recognise that the legislathon pre-1967 was from another era and | :05:57. | :06:00. | |
the enforcement of it was mhxed and variable. It is safe to say that in | :06:01. | :06:05. | |
the mid-19 40s there was allost a policy in World War II of dhscreetly | :06:06. | :06:10. | |
ignoring things on the basis that it was seen as helpful to use people's | :06:11. | :06:19. | |
skills in the fight for freddom and then in the 1950s moved to try to | :06:20. | :06:23. | |
take the freedom of whether prosecuting them for offencds that | :06:24. | :06:27. | |
would restore handled. It does make sense to look not just that those | :06:28. | :06:32. | |
who were convicted on the l`w pre-1967, but those who werd | :06:33. | :06:36. | |
convicted up until very recdntly on those that are different. It should | :06:37. | :06:42. | |
be remembered that we still have in the merchant Navy, eight st`tute | :06:43. | :06:48. | |
book buyer on gay men serving. There is a private members Bill to remove | :06:49. | :06:54. | |
that. It is sad to note that are part of our legislation that are | :06:55. | :06:57. | |
historic and contain these provisions, though not in that | :06:58. | :07:05. | |
instance in force. A lot of it does reflect on where we have got to | :07:06. | :07:09. | |
today. Changing attitudes in society. I had a major change of | :07:10. | :07:15. | |
attitude when I went to university. I went to a secondary school, I had | :07:16. | :07:19. | |
fallen in for some of the prejudice and the arguments and the group | :07:20. | :07:24. | |
thought. When I got to univdrsity and the first time people wdre out | :07:25. | :07:28. | |
and saying who they were proud of it. The president of Warwick pride | :07:29. | :07:33. | |
Society, who was having a chat with me when there was a debate going on | :07:34. | :07:38. | |
around section 20 eight. He said to me, I should be a Conservathve. He | :07:39. | :07:46. | |
said I believe in freedom of choice. Up until I make the choice `round | :07:47. | :07:51. | |
where I wanted to love, lovd you argue against that. I can choose to | :07:52. | :07:55. | |
have a pension or not, choose what I was about, whether I have children | :07:56. | :07:59. | |
or not, yet I cannot choose who I love. That was a changing moment and | :08:00. | :08:08. | |
it was such a logical argumdnt. I have got that choice, why shouldn't | :08:09. | :08:12. | |
they? Some people though my partner is older than myself. I havd the | :08:13. | :08:17. | |
right to choose that. It has never been an offence. Why should it be an | :08:18. | :08:22. | |
offence for anyone else to choose who they love? Provided thex are | :08:23. | :08:25. | |
both of the age where they can make an informed and mutual choice. | :08:26. | :08:32. | |
Likewise, sometimes we get the religious argument. I am a | :08:33. | :08:39. | |
practising Christian. That was regularly used to justify the laws | :08:40. | :08:45. | |
of the past. Yet, there is ` law in the Ten Commandments around | :08:46. | :08:50. | |
adultery. It is described as a sin, never been a criminal offence. | :08:51. | :08:55. | |
Probably some of the people here making some of the comments that | :08:56. | :08:59. | |
were being cited might well have been concerned if that had become a | :09:00. | :09:11. | |
criminal offence. There is `lso in Deuteronomy, a ruling against mixed | :09:12. | :09:15. | |
fabrics, but to the best of my knowledge, we don't some people | :09:16. | :09:23. | |
publicly for mixing well. I thank the honourable gentleman for that | :09:24. | :09:29. | |
intervention. I also find it hard to find out what is the appropriate | :09:30. | :09:39. | |
price for slaves. Perhaps whth The Member For East Dunbartonshhre may | :09:40. | :09:42. | |
not where is the homophobes and prejudiced individuals in p`rts of | :09:43. | :09:49. | |
the red states like to quotd Leviticus, they Tattie it to their | :09:50. | :09:54. | |
body. There is also a bit in Leviticus which describes touting | :09:55. | :09:59. | |
your skin as a sin. It is one of the most delicious ironies. Thex are so | :10:00. | :10:03. | |
blinded by the prejudice th`t they haven't bothered to read evdn the | :10:04. | :10:07. | |
rest of that book of the Bible while proudly displaying that. Thdy don't | :10:08. | :10:13. | |
know the sheer irony and how they were showing the total and ttter | :10:14. | :10:17. | |
ignorance when you have it car to like that done to your body. For me, | :10:18. | :10:25. | |
I don't see there is an argtment. It has been hundreds of years since we | :10:26. | :10:29. | |
had the idea that religious beliefs should be enforced by polithcal | :10:30. | :10:33. | |
power. Therefore, the argumdnt used in the past seemed completely | :10:34. | :10:43. | |
incoherent. Offences in rel`tion to homosexuality were victimless | :10:44. | :10:46. | |
crimes. No one had complaindd. Both sides were happy to take part. There | :10:47. | :10:51. | |
was no idea that and the right had been infringed, just that other | :10:52. | :10:55. | |
people were so prejudiced about that choice that they thought it should | :10:56. | :10:56. | |
be a criminal offence. Without the time seen as trtly | :10:57. | :11:06. | |
ridiculous offences attached, when no one had gone to the police to say | :11:07. | :11:09. | |
I had been harmful stock as rightly pointed out, all too often this just | :11:10. | :11:14. | |
became a way of blackmailing people, of threatening to go and Bob someone | :11:15. | :11:19. | |
in. And shamefully, even until the 1990s, we still have the military | :11:20. | :11:22. | |
police doing that and dealing in that sort of behaviour -- dob | :11:23. | :11:29. | |
someone in. An episode of a touch of frost, as a teenager I saw, which is | :11:30. | :11:33. | |
very much based on the idea that someone could be blackmailed, their | :11:34. | :11:35. | |
whole career, on the basis of whether they are gay or not was | :11:36. | :11:44. | |
absolutely shameful. It was right to point out, and by some people of my | :11:45. | :11:49. | |
government who were in power at the time, John Major did the right thing | :11:50. | :11:52. | |
at the foreign service but H think at that time we did the wrong thing | :11:53. | :11:56. | |
in terms of not admitting pdople to the Armed Forces, that actu`lly the | :11:57. | :11:59. | |
arguments around were the stuff of the stuff and nonsense. It has also | :12:00. | :12:05. | |
been pleasing to see finallx in the United States, President Ob`ma's | :12:06. | :12:11. | |
abandoning of don't ask, don't tell. What absolute load of nonsense, | :12:12. | :12:16. | |
sharing a shower is fine as long as you don't tell each other. Ht was | :12:17. | :12:20. | |
absolute nonsense and marked for me quite a symbolic change to love | :12:21. | :12:24. | |
forward. So for me it does put me into a slight quandary, I sde here | :12:25. | :12:29. | |
the government's argument, ht is welcome that the government is | :12:30. | :12:32. | |
prepared to move on this, I hear the argument from the honourabld member | :12:33. | :12:36. | |
the East Dunbartonshire arotnd the bill. I certainly won't be opposing | :12:37. | :12:39. | |
the bill, I think that would be a ridiculous thing to do. And I do | :12:40. | :12:44. | |
think some of the objections we are hearing are, I think, points that | :12:45. | :12:49. | |
for someone to have the practical effect, which I think is thd key | :12:50. | :12:52. | |
concern any of us would havd, the bill I think covers that, as does | :12:53. | :12:56. | |
the government amendment. That said, the government amendment is almost | :12:57. | :12:59. | |
certainly the quickest way to get this onto the statute book `nd | :13:00. | :13:03. | |
finally give people a chancd to actually, I went so to clear their | :13:04. | :13:06. | |
name, because actually we all know they are not criminals, thex are | :13:07. | :13:13. | |
innocent. All they have dond is beef they are. So I actually find the | :13:14. | :13:16. | |
idea of clearing their name slightly strange. I know others want to speak | :13:17. | :13:24. | |
on and I broadly sympathise with the direction he is going but I just | :13:25. | :13:28. | |
want to draw his attention to the government measure doesn't do the | :13:29. | :13:33. | |
same thing. The only to achheve the same thing is to send the bhll into | :13:34. | :13:40. | |
committee. I thank the Right Honourable member for his | :13:41. | :13:45. | |
intervention. For me, though, it is ultimately debating about the | :13:46. | :13:49. | |
record. I accept there is a member for the East Dunbartonshire's Bill, | :13:50. | :13:53. | |
this is a blanket pardon, btt it actually only really takes dffect in | :13:54. | :13:57. | |
terms of actually getting your name off criminal records via | :13:58. | :14:00. | |
application, and the governlent s idea that you get your name off the | :14:01. | :14:04. | |
criminal record and then get a formal pardon. I think that is the | :14:05. | :14:09. | |
fundamental difference that seems to be being put forward. I accdpt the | :14:10. | :14:12. | |
points made that this could be reflected in committee, but for me, | :14:13. | :14:17. | |
it is actually quite unforttnate, we have had a couple of hours, bluntly | :14:18. | :14:21. | |
we all agree with the sentilent we all agree with the principld, but we | :14:22. | :14:33. | |
are dancing around on a pin. The key difference is that the government | :14:34. | :14:36. | |
wants some safeguards around the pardon for the living. The lember | :14:37. | :14:41. | |
for Rhonda spoke about some people with great moral fibre in this | :14:42. | :14:45. | |
debate, but what the governlent wants to protect against is where | :14:46. | :14:49. | |
there is a blanket pardon, someone, for example, who hadn't been | :14:50. | :14:52. | |
pardoned could go around saxing they had. And for example what do you say | :14:53. | :14:56. | |
to the victims of that person if it was noncontractual sex in that case | :14:57. | :15:05. | |
Quek at with respect to the Minister, anyone could go around | :15:06. | :15:09. | |
Fleming they had been pardoned for an offence, it is the posithon in | :15:10. | :15:12. | |
the criminal records that m`kes the key difference. I am very conscious | :15:13. | :15:23. | |
of time. This is a seminal debate. Would the join me in urging the | :15:24. | :15:29. | |
Minister to get into committee, sort out the problems the Ministdr things | :15:30. | :15:32. | |
he has an let's get it in the statute book. I thank the Shadow | :15:33. | :15:37. | |
Minister for the intervention. I hear watches saying, although | :15:38. | :15:40. | |
actually to be fair to the Linister, he has gone further than anxone else | :15:41. | :15:43. | |
has gone in the last 50 years to pardon the ball so I am loathe to | :15:44. | :15:48. | |
offer criticism. I will not oppose this bill, that would be thd wrong | :15:49. | :15:52. | |
step I think, but I think it is likely I will probably coming to | :15:53. | :15:56. | |
abstain, because I think thd government is offering something up | :15:57. | :15:58. | |
that makes a difference and a change. But I would say to the | :15:59. | :16:02. | |
Minister that anyone could go around claiming they could be pardoned it | :16:03. | :16:05. | |
is criminal record checks that are the final determinant and the | :16:06. | :16:09. | |
record. And I think both sides in this argument are not contending | :16:10. | :16:13. | |
that in any way that there should be a change to those terms, without | :16:14. | :16:16. | |
somebody actually proving that this was not going to be a criminal | :16:17. | :16:22. | |
offence. As I would say, for me ultimately, this is about pdople who | :16:23. | :16:25. | |
have never committed an offdnce or they did was be who they ard and I | :16:26. | :16:30. | |
think it is welcome, and it is unfortunate we have ended up having | :16:31. | :16:33. | |
such a strong argument about finer points. Can I say to people that we | :16:34. | :16:37. | |
are in danger of talking thd bill out, all these people are w`iting, | :16:38. | :16:42. | |
can we try to help each othdr? To all speakers, try to keep it short | :16:43. | :16:48. | |
and we can get there. I would like to pay my respects to the pdople of | :16:49. | :16:54. | |
Aberfan, we will not forget you I would like to thank the people putt | :16:55. | :17:01. | |
Honourable member for bringhng the bill, and people who support this | :17:02. | :17:04. | |
bill, and the fantastic spedches we have had today, especially ly very | :17:05. | :17:11. | |
Honourable friend, the membdr for Rhondda. The government's | :17:12. | :17:14. | |
announcement today that he hs seeking to amend the police and the | :17:15. | :17:17. | |
bill is of course welcome btt he doesn't go far enough. The two | :17:18. | :17:22. | |
clauses tabled today contain posthumous pardons and pardons for | :17:23. | :17:29. | |
men who are still alive. Thd first put pardoned anyone who had been | :17:30. | :17:31. | |
convicted of or cautioned for a specified offence and has dhed | :17:32. | :17:33. | |
before the clause comes into force, provided the following two | :17:34. | :17:39. | |
conditions are met: the othdr two -- the other person consented to it and | :17:40. | :17:43. | |
was aged 16 or over. Any such conduct at the time, this sdction | :17:44. | :17:50. | |
came into force, would not be an offence under section 71 of the | :17:51. | :17:54. | |
sexual offences act 2003, sdxual activity in a public lavatory. The | :17:55. | :18:02. | |
second clause calls for a who are still living, it would causd an -- | :18:03. | :18:08. | |
the protection of freedoms `ct 012. Those living at the time thd clause | :18:09. | :18:15. | |
cams in the first. Pardons for living men would not however be | :18:16. | :18:20. | |
automatic. They would inste`d be tied to the disregard process set | :18:21. | :18:25. | |
out in the 2012 act. Anyone whose conviction or caution has already | :18:26. | :18:29. | |
become disregarded under thd 20 2 act at the time the clause comes | :18:30. | :18:33. | |
into force will be pardoned for that offence. Anyone whose conviction or | :18:34. | :18:39. | |
cautioned the comes disregarded after the 2012 act after thd clause | :18:40. | :18:43. | |
comes into force will be pardoned for that offence at the timd the | :18:44. | :18:47. | |
disregard takes offence. So living men will not receive a pardon under | :18:48. | :18:51. | |
the new clause unless they have also successfully applied to havd their | :18:52. | :18:55. | |
conviction or caution disregarded under the 2012 act. The press has | :18:56. | :19:04. | |
been quick to name this proposal Turing's law. Alan Turing, ` well | :19:05. | :19:13. | |
hero, -- were hero, his pardon came posthumously and too late. Ht was a | :19:14. | :19:18. | |
Labour Prime Minister, Gordon Brown, who rightly issued an offichal | :19:19. | :19:22. | |
apology in 2009 after a public petition. In issuing an apology he | :19:23. | :19:28. | |
said in 1952 he was convictdd of gross indecency. In effect tried for | :19:29. | :19:35. | |
being gay. He was sentenced and faced with a miserable choice of | :19:36. | :19:40. | |
this or prison, was chemical castration by a series of injections | :19:41. | :19:44. | |
of female hormones. He took his own life just two years later. Thousands | :19:45. | :19:51. | |
of people have come together to demand justice for Alan Turhng, and | :19:52. | :19:54. | |
in recognition of the appalling way he was treated. While Turing was | :19:55. | :19:59. | |
doubtful than the rule of the time and we can't put the clock back his | :20:00. | :20:03. | |
treatment was of course uttdrly unfair, and I am pleased to have the | :20:04. | :20:08. | |
chance to say how deeply sorry I am, as we all are, to what happdned to | :20:09. | :20:12. | |
him. Alan and so many others, thousands of gay men who were | :20:13. | :20:17. | |
convicted as he was convictdd, and a homophobic laws were treated | :20:18. | :20:21. | |
terribly. Over the years, mhllions more live in fear of conviction I | :20:22. | :20:26. | |
am powered that those days `re gone, and that in the past 12 years, this | :20:27. | :20:36. | |
government -- I am proud. This recognition of Alan's status as one | :20:37. | :20:41. | |
of Britain's most famous victims of homophobia is another step towards | :20:42. | :20:46. | |
equality, and long overdue. Members on this side of the house and Labour | :20:47. | :20:50. | |
supporters the length and breadth of the UK are proud that it was a | :20:51. | :20:54. | |
Labour government and a Labour Prime Minister that started the process | :20:55. | :20:57. | |
which has led us to this debate today. It was the coalition | :20:58. | :21:03. | |
government who initially refused to exercise a pardon in 2012, `nd it | :21:04. | :21:07. | |
was right that under the wehght of public opinion they changed their | :21:08. | :21:13. | |
minds in 2013, in order that the Queen could grant a pardon hn 2 14. | :21:14. | :21:19. | |
But as many have said today there are so many more who have not | :21:20. | :21:23. | |
received a pardon and it is right that they should do so. As others | :21:24. | :21:28. | |
have said it is right that we should recognise the need to extend the | :21:29. | :21:34. | |
pardon afforded to Alan Turhng two others convicted to what much of | :21:35. | :21:36. | |
history's shame was a criminal offence, though most people today | :21:37. | :21:39. | |
find it hard to believe quite rightly. This is why Labour | :21:40. | :21:47. | |
committed to Turing's law in the 2015 general election, but the law | :21:48. | :21:52. | |
as it stands does not go far enough. Rachel Barnes, a great-niecd of Alan | :21:53. | :21:57. | |
Turing, recognise that in 2015, when handing a petition to Downing Street | :21:58. | :22:06. | |
said: I consider it to be f`ir that everyone convicted under thd gross | :22:07. | :22:10. | |
indecency law is given a pardon It is illogical that might gre`t uncle | :22:11. | :22:15. | |
is the only one to have been given a pardon. I would feel sure that Alan | :22:16. | :22:18. | |
Turing would also have wantdd justice for everybody. And ht is | :22:19. | :22:23. | |
right that the government h`s listened to those who have | :22:24. | :22:26. | |
campaigned on this issue for many years. The private members bill | :22:27. | :22:32. | |
before the house today would go further. Pardons would be ghven to | :22:33. | :22:39. | |
all those is, so for those convicted of behaviour that would still amount | :22:40. | :22:42. | |
to an offence today. It is difficult to the government's objection to | :22:43. | :22:47. | |
this in principle. The problems of perception, as the Minister | :22:48. | :22:54. | |
highlights, could easily be avoided. It is often suggested that the | :22:55. | :22:56. | |
disregard scheme should havd more promotion. The proposed amendment to | :22:57. | :23:06. | |
section 92 on the protection of freedoms act, also looks like a | :23:07. | :23:12. | |
logical progression. Section 32 of the sexual offences act 1956, | :23:13. | :23:21. | |
soliciting by men for immor`l purposes, was not included hn the | :23:22. | :23:24. | |
list of conviction that shotld be disregarded in the protection of | :23:25. | :23:30. | |
freedoms act 2012. There ard many examples which show the offdnce was | :23:31. | :23:34. | |
used as recently as the 1990s to arrest and prosecute gay and | :23:35. | :23:39. | |
bisexual men for suggesting sex between what they understood to be | :23:40. | :23:48. | |
consenting at adults, often in incidents involving plainclothes | :23:49. | :23:49. | |
policeman. This bill will at this convhction to | :23:50. | :24:04. | |
the list of laws that can bd disregarded, closing this loophole. | :24:05. | :24:09. | |
Labour recognises that the conviction and persecution of more | :24:10. | :24:16. | |
than 50,000 men affected by these vicious and discriminatory laws has | :24:17. | :24:19. | |
left a legacy of pain and htrt, not just to the men themselves but to | :24:20. | :24:24. | |
their family and friends. This is all about our country sending those | :24:25. | :24:28. | |
men a clear and unequivocal message, you did nothing wrong. They did | :24:29. | :24:32. | |
nothing wrong. They should not have been criminalised, and it is time to | :24:33. | :24:37. | |
write this grievously historical wrong. That is why we will be | :24:38. | :24:45. | |
supporting this bill and we encourage honourable members to do | :24:46. | :24:56. | |
the same. May I begin by adding my congratulations to the honotrable | :24:57. | :24:58. | |
member for East Dunbartonshhre firstly for securing the top spot in | :24:59. | :25:04. | |
the private members bill ballot and then deciding to use it to hntroduce | :25:05. | :25:09. | |
this important bill. I was very pleased and honoured to be `sked to | :25:10. | :25:15. | |
be a co-sponsor of the bill, and my support remains undiluted for it. | :25:16. | :25:20. | |
And should we come to a divhsion on this bill today I will be stpporting | :25:21. | :25:27. | |
him in the lobby. I identifhed with much of what he said in his opening | :25:28. | :25:33. | |
speech about the experiences of growing up as a closeted gax man in | :25:34. | :25:40. | |
the West of Scotland. I went through a similar experience and upbringing, | :25:41. | :25:45. | |
and it wasn't easy. And it took me a long time to come to terms with who | :25:46. | :25:50. | |
I was. Indeed, we went to the same school. | :25:51. | :26:10. | |
It might be and Galant of md to say that it was a few years apart. It | :26:11. | :26:18. | |
wasn't easy growing up in that atmosphere and being gay and having | :26:19. | :26:27. | |
to cite -- highs that. -- hhde that. My other reason for being vdry | :26:28. | :26:31. | |
passionate about this measure is a constituency one. I am very proud to | :26:32. | :26:37. | |
have in my Milton Keynes constituency Bletchley Park where | :26:38. | :26:40. | |
Allen during did much of his celebrated work during the Second | :26:41. | :26:47. | |
World War. -- Alan Turing. He did much to shorten that conflict, as my | :26:48. | :26:52. | |
honourable colleagues have referred to, saving thousands if not millions | :26:53. | :26:57. | |
of lives as a consequence. H am very proud that we have got to the point | :26:58. | :27:02. | |
where he was granted a pardon in the last parliament. That was a | :27:03. | :27:06. | |
culmination of a long campahgn for many years by many people inside and | :27:07. | :27:12. | |
outside of this House. I relember when the debate was happening about | :27:13. | :27:16. | |
whether he should be granted a pardon as opposed to an apology | :27:17. | :27:21. | |
there were a number of objections raised and the one and only time I | :27:22. | :27:27. | |
was grilled on Newsnight by Jeremy Paxman, two particular argulents | :27:28. | :27:31. | |
were made. The first was, it wrong retrospectively to pardon for a | :27:32. | :27:39. | |
crime that was a crime at the time but now which thankfully in more | :27:40. | :27:44. | |
enlightened times is no longer so. Because if you started pardoning for | :27:45. | :27:49. | |
that, where do you stop? Wh`t about witchcraft? Do we grant a p`rdon and | :27:50. | :27:55. | |
apology for that? Well, if people want to bring forward a bill to | :27:56. | :27:58. | |
pardon people for witchcraft, I would say, bring it forward. This is | :27:59. | :28:03. | |
a matter that really matters to lots of people. A sign of a civilised | :28:04. | :28:09. | |
society is that we can colldctively pardon. There is no fault whth the | :28:10. | :28:23. | |
pardon that was issued for people executed in the First World War for | :28:24. | :28:28. | |
cowardice. That was issued `nd it showed that we can retrospectively | :28:29. | :28:35. | |
pardon. The second argument was why just Allen during? Yes, a f`mous | :28:36. | :28:43. | |
person, a person to whom we owe an enormous debt of gratitude, but as | :28:44. | :28:52. | |
many people have alluded to, he was just one person caught under the | :28:53. | :29:02. | |
same legislation. -- Alan Ttring. That was more difficult to `rgue. I | :29:03. | :29:06. | |
was happy to champion Alan Turing because we do, as a country, owe him | :29:07. | :29:11. | |
an enormous debt of gratitude. It was also a symbolic gesture that the | :29:12. | :29:16. | |
country has moved on and by pardoning him, we would send a very | :29:17. | :29:21. | |
clear message that such so-called crimes were no longer a stahn on our | :29:22. | :29:26. | |
collective conscience. But ht did trouble me that it was just that one | :29:27. | :29:33. | |
person. At the honourable mdmber for East Dunbartonshire and othdrs have | :29:34. | :29:37. | |
said, it did affect many thousands of other men. That is why I am very | :29:38. | :29:42. | |
pleased that this bill is bding introduced and, to be fair to the | :29:43. | :29:46. | |
Government, they have made progress on this through the protecthon of | :29:47. | :29:50. | |
freedom is that in the last Parliament and their indication of | :29:51. | :29:55. | |
support to Lord Sharkey's alendment in the Other Place. That is very | :29:56. | :30:00. | |
welcome progress and I will wholeheartedly support that if that | :30:01. | :30:03. | |
is the vehicle through which change happens. However, I absolutdly agree | :30:04. | :30:11. | |
with the honourable member will -- member for Dumbartonshire and others | :30:12. | :30:17. | |
who have said, we can do better than this. We can move forward in a much | :30:18. | :30:24. | |
more symbolic way and in a way which will really make a difference to | :30:25. | :30:31. | |
many people in this country. Certainly. It is appointed symbolist | :30:32. | :30:39. | |
than what I think that very much at the heart of what he is sayhng. I | :30:40. | :30:46. | |
would have loved to have spoken today but my voice is giving in I | :30:47. | :30:52. | |
did not come out until after I was elected to my family. I hopd the | :30:53. | :30:59. | |
next generation of young people will not have to make public statements, | :31:00. | :31:04. | |
the next generation of politicians will not have do say they are gay | :31:05. | :31:08. | |
because it will not matter, our race, sex or sexuality will not | :31:09. | :31:18. | |
matter. It is very important we go forwards with this as a bill because | :31:19. | :31:22. | |
it will have better scrutinx than it would do otherwise. I absolttely | :31:23. | :31:28. | |
agree with the honourable l`dy and I congratulate her on finding her | :31:29. | :31:31. | |
moment to make that announcdment and agree that we shouldn't havd do make | :31:32. | :31:37. | |
it. But we, all of us who are gay, have a different journey. Wd come to | :31:38. | :31:44. | |
terms with it at different times in different ways, privately whth our | :31:45. | :31:46. | |
family and friends and then publicly. That leads us neatly to | :31:47. | :31:53. | |
the next point I was going to make. Although we do live in enlightened | :31:54. | :31:58. | |
times and we have passed thd same-sex marriage act and sdction 20 | :31:59. | :32:03. | |
is consigned to the dustbin, or section two A as it was in Scotland. | :32:04. | :32:10. | |
Adoption procedures have ch`nged, the military procedures havd | :32:11. | :32:13. | |
changed. Some people say, why do you need this? Haven't you got `ll you | :32:14. | :32:17. | |
have been asking for? But there is an important point that even people | :32:18. | :32:22. | |
like me who were born after homosexuality was decriminalised | :32:23. | :32:29. | |
still can carry with us perhaps a sense of shame, perhaps a sdnse that | :32:30. | :32:34. | |
we are not entirely comfort`ble in our own skin. That is a leg`cy of | :32:35. | :32:44. | |
growing up in an age when there was prejudice. Different people cope | :32:45. | :32:49. | |
with that in different ways. I've struggled with it at times. I've | :32:50. | :32:55. | |
read a very good book and I would encourage other members to read it. | :32:56. | :32:59. | |
It's called the Velvet Ridgd by Doctor Alan Downs. And he gdts to | :33:00. | :33:08. | |
the heart of why some gay mdn steal feel, even in enlightened thmes in | :33:09. | :33:12. | |
countries where the law is `s liberal as it can be, still fill | :33:13. | :33:22. | |
that Shane -- still feel th`t shame. It does matter that we addrdss that. | :33:23. | :33:27. | |
This bill in itself will not clearly hang-ups or depression or anything | :33:28. | :33:31. | |
that people have, but it will be an important step, in the same way that | :33:32. | :33:36. | |
same-sex marriage was and all the other changes we have made hn recent | :33:37. | :33:41. | |
years. So, I do urge the Government to think seriously about supporting | :33:42. | :33:48. | |
this bill, at least allowing it through second reading. If H | :33:49. | :33:52. | |
remember correctly when I w`s studying politics at university the | :33:53. | :33:56. | |
point of a second reading is a debate on the principle of the bill. | :33:57. | :34:02. | |
No one today has expressed objection to the principle of the bill. If | :34:03. | :34:07. | |
there are questions about the detail, the process, the capacity of | :34:08. | :34:11. | |
the Ministry of Justice, thdse are all perfectly valid concerns to | :34:12. | :34:15. | |
raise. We are a parliament, that is what we do. We look at the detail. | :34:16. | :34:21. | |
We tease out, looking for unintended consequences, but surely we can do | :34:22. | :34:27. | |
that in committee? It would send, I think, a very powerful mess`ge, an | :34:28. | :34:32. | |
important message, to be cotntry, to the thousands of men who struggled | :34:33. | :34:39. | |
still with what happened in the past and to those who are still growing | :34:40. | :34:43. | |
up today, uncertain about how or should they come out. Pleasd let us | :34:44. | :34:50. | |
approve this today. Take it to committee, tease out the issues | :34:51. | :34:54. | |
there. That is the appropri`te procedure in my view for thhs bill. | :34:55. | :34:58. | |
I congratulate again the honourable gentleman for introducing it and | :34:59. | :35:03. | |
I'll be very proud to support him in the lobbies later if it comds to it. | :35:04. | :35:09. | |
Thank you, Madam Deputy Spe`ker It is a genuine pleasure to follow the | :35:10. | :35:13. | |
honourable member for Milton Keynes South who has developed -- delivered | :35:14. | :35:20. | |
a powerful speech and I also want to particularly thank in the w`rmest | :35:21. | :35:24. | |
terms the honourable member for East Dumbartonshire who has brought this | :35:25. | :35:30. | |
bill before us today. Unlikd him, I wasn't born in the 1970s, btt my | :35:31. | :35:41. | |
parents were. I reflect on how much our society has changed durhng their | :35:42. | :35:47. | |
lifetimes and mine. In parthcular, thinking about how far the law of | :35:48. | :35:53. | |
the light -- land has changdd just during my own lifetime. We have seen | :35:54. | :35:58. | |
the abolition of section 28 across England and Wales and two A in | :35:59. | :36:07. | |
Scotland, the legalisation of equal marriage, the introduction of | :36:08. | :36:09. | |
protection in goods and services, the ability for LGB to people to | :36:10. | :36:15. | |
serve in the armed services. There have been so many changes brought | :36:16. | :36:19. | |
about in the law of the land by this place that have led to our country | :36:20. | :36:25. | |
being a better place for it. That is why I very much support this bill | :36:26. | :36:29. | |
today. I also support, by the way, the fact we are having a debate with | :36:30. | :36:32. | |
a Conservative Government about how we make the change to the l`w | :36:33. | :36:37. | |
whether -- rather than whether we should. I will return to th`t point | :36:38. | :36:41. | |
in my short remarks but I do welcome the fact that the Government has | :36:42. | :36:45. | |
made some steps in the Housd of Lords and I would urge them this | :36:46. | :36:48. | |
afternoon to go further through this bill and through proper scrttiny in | :36:49. | :36:53. | |
the House of Commons. Alan Turing has an important part in our | :36:54. | :36:58. | |
country's history but he also has an important part to play in otr | :36:59. | :37:02. | |
country's teacher because, through great initiatives like the work of | :37:03. | :37:09. | |
science and history teaches throughout the country, young people | :37:10. | :37:14. | |
today learn of the extraordhnary acts of bravery and intelligence | :37:15. | :37:20. | |
that took part at Bletchley Park in the honourable gentleman's | :37:21. | :37:24. | |
constituency. Were it not for Alan Turing, it is very likely that we | :37:25. | :37:29. | |
would not have succeeded in turning back the tide of Nazism as ht swept | :37:30. | :37:34. | |
across Europe, we would not have been successful at defeating them in | :37:35. | :37:38. | |
the sea and in the air and ht was three the Enigma code breakhng work | :37:39. | :37:41. | |
that took place at Bletchlex Park that the allies were able to secure | :37:42. | :37:47. | |
such a powerful advantage over the Nazis when all seemed lost on the | :37:48. | :37:53. | |
continent of Europe. That story is powerful, not just because of the | :37:54. | :37:58. | |
extraordinary role that Alan Turing played in that decisive momdnt in | :37:59. | :38:03. | |
British history, but becausd only a few years later, this hero of our | :38:04. | :38:10. | |
country was tried before our courts, chemically castrated and forced to | :38:11. | :38:15. | |
take his own life. Young people growing up in schools today not only | :38:16. | :38:19. | |
learn about the enormous heroism of Alan Turing, they also learn about | :38:20. | :38:23. | |
the extraordinary treachery of the Government of the day, of the courts | :38:24. | :38:29. | |
that allowed it to happen, `nd in that lesson, in that experidnce | :38:30. | :38:33. | |
they reflect on what it means to be a decent human being. They reflect | :38:34. | :38:38. | |
with horror on Britain's past and they aspire towards a better future. | :38:39. | :38:44. | |
As a former head of education at Stonewall, I know how powerful the | :38:45. | :38:49. | |
work of teachers and schools is not just in learning about changes to | :38:50. | :38:53. | |
the law, but in bringing about change to heart and mind. L DBT | :38:54. | :39:02. | |
young people growing up in Britain today face very different challenges | :39:03. | :39:07. | |
to Alan Turing and his generation. Unlike Alan Turing's generation | :39:08. | :39:09. | |
they are not threatened by the letter of the law, but just like | :39:10. | :39:14. | |
Alan Turing's generation, they do nonetheless feel threatened by | :39:15. | :39:18. | |
bigotry on the streets, in the workplace, in the classroom, in the | :39:19. | :39:25. | |
home. That is why we need to think very carefully about the message we | :39:26. | :39:32. | |
will send three the law tod`y - through the law today, becatse of | :39:33. | :39:38. | |
those pressures that LGB to the well feel they need to remain in the | :39:39. | :39:44. | |
closet. We have the appalling situation where One in Five men are | :39:45. | :39:53. | |
currently experiencing anxidty, where one third of lesbian xoung | :39:54. | :39:56. | |
women have thought about taking their own lives and where, | :39:57. | :40:03. | |
shockingly, more than a half of LGB teeth young people in our schools | :40:04. | :40:07. | |
have self harmed, where one in four has attempted suicide. Thesd are | :40:08. | :40:12. | |
young people growing up in our society today and if we werd | :40:13. | :40:15. | |
thinking or talking about these figures in any other context, there | :40:16. | :40:20. | |
would be an outrage in this place and across the country about these | :40:21. | :40:24. | |
figures for suicide and self harm and yet these are very real | :40:25. | :40:28. | |
statistics affecting young people in our country to date. These `re of | :40:29. | :40:33. | |
epidemic proportions. This hs a national crisis and the Govdrnment | :40:34. | :40:36. | |
needs to look very carefullx at what it can do to tackle the mental | :40:37. | :40:41. | |
health crisis that still affects LGB T people in Britain today. The | :40:42. | :40:47. | |
member for Reigate spoke very powerfully about symbols and the | :40:48. | :40:51. | |
possibility for this bill to be a very powerful symbol about the kind | :40:52. | :40:54. | |
of country we want to be. I would urge the Minister to think very | :40:55. | :40:58. | |
carefully about what symbol it would send today if this bill, with all of | :40:59. | :41:03. | |
the welcome publicity that's been generated, was either talked out or | :41:04. | :41:04. | |
defeated. I think it would send a message that | :41:05. | :41:11. | |
there are still people in this House and across the country who `re not | :41:12. | :41:16. | |
content to see equality for LGBT people, who look back on thd | :41:17. | :41:19. | |
progress made by this Parli`ment not with pride and optimism for the | :41:20. | :41:23. | |
future but with regret and pessimism about their ability to defe`t what | :41:24. | :41:30. | |
Martin Luther King called the arc of social progress that bends towards | :41:31. | :41:35. | |
justice. I think listening to what the Minister has said this | :41:36. | :41:37. | |
afternoon, he clearly has some technical problems with the Bill as | :41:38. | :41:41. | |
it is presented, and that is exactly why he should it urges colldagues to | :41:42. | :41:46. | |
vote in favour of the Bill, to give this a second reading so thdse | :41:47. | :41:50. | |
things can be ironed out at committee stage. People across the | :41:51. | :41:55. | |
country will not hear that there are technical concerns, they will see | :41:56. | :41:58. | |
the views that a conservative governorate has conspired to defeat | :41:59. | :42:01. | |
an aborted measure. I will give way. It is important to make it clear | :42:02. | :42:04. | |
that the Government is not dragging its heels, not hesitant on this | :42:05. | :42:09. | |
important issue. The governor wants to write this historic wrong and do | :42:10. | :42:19. | |
it as fairly as possible. I am absolutely delighted by the | :42:20. | :42:22. | |
statement, and I'm delighted to talk further about how can I out the | :42:23. | :42:28. | |
problems as we march into the lobby this afternoon. The other thing I | :42:29. | :42:32. | |
want to say before I conclude is that while we can look back with | :42:33. | :42:35. | |
enormous pride at what has been achieved, we cannot issue that the | :42:36. | :42:39. | |
progress we have made cannot be undone. I'm sure I'm not thd only | :42:40. | :42:42. | |
person in the House this afternoon who is deeply concerned that, in | :42:43. | :42:48. | |
recent weeks and months, we had seen a huge rise in hate crime across the | :42:49. | :42:51. | |
United Kingdom, including homophobic hate crime. We have seen thd rise of | :42:52. | :42:58. | |
far right extremism across Durope and we have seen the US reshdential | :42:59. | :43:02. | |
election, being someone who is absolutely fine with sexual | :43:03. | :43:06. | |
harassment is no bar to the highest office. We support liberal democracy | :43:07. | :43:15. | |
and to have become complacent about defending it, and insuring hts | :43:16. | :43:21. | |
ongoing success. That is whx I think this Bill is an important moment in | :43:22. | :43:24. | |
that context and why it shotld be supported. I want to end with the | :43:25. | :43:29. | |
words of Roger Lockyer, who is 8 years old and one of the men who had | :43:30. | :43:35. | |
to endure a lifetime of expdrience is that frankly and thankfully | :43:36. | :43:39. | |
someone of my age and youngdr has not had to experience. He s`id, | :43:40. | :43:45. | |
about the proposal brought forward by the honourable member for East | :43:46. | :43:49. | |
Dunbartonshire this afternoon, about him had his generation who were | :43:50. | :43:54. | |
convicted. He said, they max have been illegally convicted, btt they | :43:55. | :43:59. | |
were unjustly convicted. Thhs pardon is not about forgiveness for | :44:00. | :44:04. | |
something that they did wrong. This is a very powerful message that they | :44:05. | :44:10. | |
should never have been convhcted in the first place. That those laws | :44:11. | :44:13. | |
should never have existed, `nd they should never have been prosdcuted | :44:14. | :44:20. | |
for something in which they had done absolutely nothing wrong. This Bill | :44:21. | :44:25. | |
is about confronting our cotntry's past and facing the future with | :44:26. | :44:28. | |
confidence, and that is why owl be voting for it this afternoon. - I | :44:29. | :44:38. | |
will be voting for it. I used to live in Ilford town, | :44:39. | :44:46. | |
before I was drummed out whdn the locals discovered I was a closet | :44:47. | :44:51. | |
Tory. It is a great pleasurd to follow him and have the opportunity | :44:52. | :44:59. | |
to speak on this Bill, which is of great importance, not just for | :45:00. | :45:02. | |
justice in this country but of great emotional importance to my | :45:03. | :45:06. | |
constituents and those who `re either gay themselves or who have | :45:07. | :45:09. | |
friends and family and colldagues who are. They have felt judged by a | :45:10. | :45:15. | |
different standard over the years. The honourable member for E`st | :45:16. | :45:17. | |
Dunbartonshire is my colleague on the culture, media and sport select | :45:18. | :45:20. | |
committee and I'm incrediblx grateful to him for using hhs | :45:21. | :45:25. | |
coveted allocation of time for a Private members Bill to bring | :45:26. | :45:29. | |
forward these proposals and also for sharing his ideas with me over | :45:30. | :45:34. | |
several bottles of rows a vhew weeks ago, thank you very much. -, bottles | :45:35. | :45:42. | |
of rose. He has done a lot of work to make | :45:43. | :45:45. | |
this a cross-party initiative. I thank him for including the. I'm | :45:46. | :45:50. | |
proud to be on my feet in stpport of what he wants to achieve through | :45:51. | :45:54. | |
this Bill. We have had some incredibly impressive come to be | :45:55. | :45:58. | |
since today, in particular H would like to mention the honourable | :45:59. | :46:02. | |
member, who is not on his place from Arundel, from Glasgow South and | :46:03. | :46:13. | |
the Rhondda. Equality beford the law must not only be our fundamdntal | :46:14. | :46:16. | |
principle but our fundament`l practice. That means that not only | :46:17. | :46:19. | |
must justice be done but justice must be seen to be done. Thd | :46:20. | :46:26. | |
Government's previous busindss card -- disregard scheme helped | :46:27. | :46:30. | |
ameliorate the repercussions of a criminal records upon those evicted | :46:31. | :46:35. | |
under what we now rightly consider outdated, unfair and discrilinatory | :46:36. | :46:40. | |
laws targeting sex between len differently to others. To truly | :46:41. | :46:46. | |
rectify this injustice, we lust go further. As this Bill proposes, | :46:47. | :46:53. | |
grant pardons, for convictions which were immoral. Justice will be seen | :46:54. | :47:00. | |
to be done and, importantly, by those wrongly criminalised by - | :47:01. | :47:12. | |
criminalised, and their famhlies. We have deep gratitude towards Alan | :47:13. | :47:17. | |
Turing's crucial and be since towards Britain's defence provided | :47:18. | :47:23. | |
enough of a focal point that his cause and trigger this apology. | :47:24. | :47:29. | |
Though one citizen has a grdater value or a greater right to justice. | :47:30. | :47:36. | |
This pardon, if it was just for Alan Turing, there is no tenable case | :47:37. | :47:40. | |
that no other individual has that right. | :47:41. | :47:49. | |
It is a fundamental acknowlddgement of the equality before the law. I | :47:50. | :47:55. | |
welcome the comments of the Justice Minister, saying that the g`rment | :47:56. | :47:59. | |
will adopt some of the proposals in this Bill and use the policd and | :48:00. | :48:02. | |
crime Bill to put right somd of these injustices. But I do find that | :48:03. | :48:09. | |
the last-minute scrambling... I hope you will forgive me for this, the | :48:10. | :48:12. | |
dancing around handbags, if you like, at the last minute. Not a | :48:13. | :48:20. | |
venture I have taken advant`ge of myself. I find that a littld bit | :48:21. | :48:23. | |
slippery and a little disrespectful to the honourable member and his | :48:24. | :48:30. | |
Bill. But I do look forward to his further remarks. Other colldagues, | :48:31. | :48:38. | |
and I would like to wrap up, have proposed the moral and legal case. I | :48:39. | :48:44. | |
will conclude my conclusion on the subject there, but I would like to | :48:45. | :48:48. | |
conclude my remarks by taking this opportunity to issue a mea culpa. | :48:49. | :48:56. | |
During my first term in offhce, I voted against equal marriagd for a | :48:57. | :49:01. | |
whole host of reasons. I thought at the time that what I was dohng was | :49:02. | :49:05. | |
right. Having now reflected and having seen how that act has made | :49:06. | :49:10. | |
such a wasn't a difference for thousands of couples around the | :49:11. | :49:16. | |
country, IDP regret that decision. -- I deeply regret that dechsion. I | :49:17. | :49:23. | |
got it wrong. People in this House will know how difficult it hs for a | :49:24. | :49:26. | |
Yorkshire men who admit thex have got anything wrong. If I had the | :49:27. | :49:32. | |
opportunity again, I would vote differently, and I want to `pologise | :49:33. | :49:36. | |
to my friends, I want to apologise to family members and consthtuents | :49:37. | :49:42. | |
who identify as gay, lesbian or bisexual, and I want them to know | :49:43. | :49:45. | |
that I believe in their full equality. I won't have the chance to | :49:46. | :49:50. | |
change that previous vote, but I am pleased to have the chance to stand | :49:51. | :49:54. | |
in support of equality before the law today. I am more than h`ppy to | :49:55. | :49:58. | |
support my friend's Bill. APPLAUSE | :49:59. | :50:06. | |
They give very much, Madame deputies bigger. | :50:07. | :50:11. | |
I also wear a purple tie and a yellow lanyard. Resign! Tod`y is the | :50:12. | :50:21. | |
day that I have to come out as being straight. I should point out that | :50:22. | :50:28. | |
the wife who has been good dnough to put up with me for the last 32 years | :50:29. | :50:36. | |
has had her suspicions. But there is a serious point, as was mentioned by | :50:37. | :50:42. | |
my honourable friend from Livingston, I have never had to come | :50:43. | :50:44. | |
out as being straight. Why should anybody have to come out for being | :50:45. | :50:51. | |
gay or lesbian? I have never had to justify to anybody the codes of | :50:52. | :50:58. | |
behaviour that guide me in ly private life, partly through the | :50:59. | :51:00. | |
faith I believe it and partly just because I am who I am. I have never | :51:01. | :51:05. | |
had to justify that to anyone. Why should anyone who lives a dhfferent | :51:06. | :51:10. | |
path in life have to justifx the right to do so? What is it that | :51:11. | :51:13. | |
gives me or anyone the right to criminalise somebody simply because | :51:14. | :51:17. | |
they are a wee bit different from what I am. My first reason for | :51:18. | :51:23. | |
supporting this Bill is not that various pieces of legislation | :51:24. | :51:28. | |
outlawed sexual acts were wrong or mistaken or that they had p`ssed | :51:29. | :51:31. | |
their sell by date it was thme to catch up with changes in social | :51:32. | :51:34. | |
values and so on, it is bec`use these were laws that note P`rliament | :51:35. | :51:38. | |
on earth has ever had any rhght to pass in the first place. Our | :51:39. | :51:45. | |
predecessors step will beyond any legislation they had in passing | :51:46. | :51:51. | |
this. I do not judge those who had to enforce the legislation. It is | :51:52. | :51:55. | |
entirely proper that as the successors of those who passed | :51:56. | :51:58. | |
legislation they had no right to pass, we take full responsibility | :51:59. | :52:03. | |
for doing what we can do put it right. This is why this desdrves a | :52:04. | :52:07. | |
full act of Parliament in its own right. The injustice is gre`t enough | :52:08. | :52:10. | |
that it deserves a full act upon to put it right. It is approprhate that | :52:11. | :52:18. | |
a pilot that speaks for the people is appointed for and by the great | :52:19. | :52:25. | |
and the good. I wanted is bhg about the damage that has been done to | :52:26. | :52:29. | |
summary lies. The worst possible result we could have today would be | :52:30. | :52:34. | |
for the this Bill to be pushed out. I cannot think of any thing worse. | :52:35. | :52:42. | |
If we didn't have time to ddcide whether to finally pardon and | :52:43. | :52:47. | |
apologise to all those who were affected by it. I can appreciate | :52:48. | :52:51. | |
there are concerns about a precedent. There was an exalple of | :52:52. | :52:57. | |
young men who were executed for cowardice because they had nervous | :52:58. | :53:02. | |
or mental breakdowns in the trenches. I'm not aware of `ny other | :53:03. | :53:08. | |
instance in our recent history for Sunni people to have been stbjected | :53:09. | :53:12. | |
to awful persecution as a rdsult of an unjust act of Parliament. If | :53:13. | :53:16. | |
anyone can give me an example and wants to bring forward retrospective | :53:17. | :53:21. | |
pardons for those affected by that legislation, I will support it and I | :53:22. | :53:28. | |
hope everyone else will. My judgment as to when Parliament should | :53:29. | :53:37. | |
criminalise an act, it should not conflict with my religious face It | :53:38. | :53:43. | |
will always be on whether it will be harmful to others. | :53:44. | :53:51. | |
What ever happens in societx or any least member of it, but is ly | :53:52. | :53:56. | |
measure of that society. If it doesn't hurt anybody else, then it | :53:57. | :54:00. | |
is nothing to do with the l`w of the land. Despite having a numbdr of | :54:01. | :54:04. | |
difficult conversation with close friends and family at the thme of | :54:05. | :54:11. | |
the debate over section 28, over gay marriage and adoption, I have never | :54:12. | :54:14. | |
heard anyone present me with a single piece of evidence to suggest | :54:15. | :54:19. | |
that two men having sex are any more of a danger to society than a man or | :54:20. | :54:25. | |
a woman having sex, or two women having sex was not remember, that it | :54:26. | :54:28. | |
has never been a common offdnce for two women to have sex. Why did they | :54:29. | :54:33. | |
think it was a good idea to criminalise two men? | :54:34. | :54:40. | |
We have got a very good exalple here in a honourable friend who confessed | :54:41. | :54:44. | |
that he wanted to join the Government service and decided not | :54:45. | :54:48. | |
to because he would not havd been allowed to without telling lies How | :54:49. | :54:54. | |
many of our finest diplomats never joined the diplomatic service? How | :54:55. | :54:58. | |
money other best teachers ndver taught in front of a class of young | :54:59. | :55:02. | |
people? How many of our best politicians never stood for any | :55:03. | :55:05. | |
public office? Not because they were not good enough but because they | :55:06. | :55:08. | |
were scared to because of the terror of what might come out about their | :55:09. | :55:13. | |
private lives. This legislation had an appalling effect on lives of | :55:14. | :55:16. | |
thousands of our fellow cithzens it has also caused and told dalage to | :55:17. | :55:23. | |
our society as a whole. As often referred it was a gift to otr | :55:24. | :55:28. | |
friends in the KGB because ht was difficult to blackmail someone over | :55:29. | :55:32. | |
a guilty secret after you h`ve said your gold the secret isn't guilty | :55:33. | :55:39. | |
any more. It was a blackmail charter. We will never know how much | :55:40. | :55:42. | |
damage was done in that reg`rd. We will never know how many lives were | :55:43. | :55:48. | |
blighted, the lives of men who were not convicted. We will never know | :55:49. | :55:52. | |
how many lived their entire lives under the terror of being | :55:53. | :55:58. | |
discovered. We do note that a significant number of men took their | :55:59. | :56:00. | |
own lives because they city could not reconcile the conflict between | :56:01. | :56:08. | |
knowing who they were and bding told you are not allowed to live as a | :56:09. | :56:11. | |
person that you believe yourself to be. | :56:12. | :56:17. | |
I can understand there are concerns over the content of the bill but it | :56:18. | :56:23. | |
seemed to me that the Minister has changed his concerns since the | :56:24. | :56:28. | |
debate started. Earlier on there was a concern that it may enabld people | :56:29. | :56:35. | |
to be pardoned he didn't nedd to be pardoned, but my honourable friend | :56:36. | :56:43. | |
said that that could not happen so now that has been debunked `nd we | :56:44. | :56:48. | |
know that the law would not allow anyone to be pardoned who should not | :56:49. | :56:54. | |
be pardoned, that is not thd kind of argument we would expect from a | :56:55. | :56:59. | |
minister when speaking about any piece of legislation and I have to | :57:00. | :57:03. | |
say that the give me an uncomfortable feeling that the | :57:04. | :57:06. | |
Government's concerns are not the fine details of the bill, btt more | :57:07. | :57:10. | |
with the principle of the bhll, and I am left wondering whether the | :57:11. | :57:15. | |
problem is with the identitx of the person who has brought the bill I | :57:16. | :57:19. | |
hope that for goodness sake that is not an issue. Can I finish by | :57:20. | :57:24. | |
saying, what does it do for the Democratic legislative -- what does | :57:25. | :57:29. | |
it do for the reputation of this place and the Democratic, | :57:30. | :57:41. | |
legislative place, that if ` person has put a lot of work into rating a | :57:42. | :57:47. | |
bill that they said they wanted they then say to them, you can tear | :57:48. | :57:52. | |
up your bill and put it on the fire, because we have decided a bdtter | :57:53. | :57:59. | |
way. If that were to happen today, if the bill falls for lack of time | :58:00. | :58:05. | |
because someone sees how cldver it would be to talk for as long as they | :58:06. | :58:11. | |
can, if the bill was to fall through lack of time, what should bd one of | :58:12. | :58:16. | |
the brightest days in the hhstory of this place would soon becomd one of | :58:17. | :58:21. | |
the darkest. I appeal to melbers, and allow this bill to pass so that | :58:22. | :58:25. | |
the thousands of men who continue to live with the shame and the Guild of | :58:26. | :58:29. | |
something they should never have felt ashamed or guilty for, so that | :58:30. | :58:35. | |
those who are still alive c`n live out their last days are not knowing | :58:36. | :58:38. | |
they have been cleared and found innocent of any wrongdoing, and so | :58:39. | :58:43. | |
that those for whom this decision is too late will finally be allowed to | :58:44. | :58:51. | |
rest in peace. It is a pleasure to follow the honourable member. Can I | :58:52. | :58:55. | |
also congratulate my honour`ble friend, the Member for Selbx, for | :58:56. | :59:02. | |
his colleagues -- comments darlier on which I am sure the whold house | :59:03. | :59:09. | |
bound touching and sincere. I congratulate the Member for East | :59:10. | :59:14. | |
Dunbartonshire for his succdss in the ballot and for bringing this | :59:15. | :59:19. | |
bill. It seems that we are finally close to fulfilling this cross party | :59:20. | :59:32. | |
bill and I was honoured to be asked to support this bill, not only | :59:33. | :59:36. | |
because it is entirely conshstent with my own feelings but also | :59:37. | :59:40. | |
because it is entirely conshstent with a Conservative Party m`nifesto | :59:41. | :59:44. | |
commitment in which we pledged to build on the past you must pardon of | :59:45. | :59:52. | |
Alan Turing, to introduce a new law that will pardon those both alive | :59:53. | :59:56. | |
and dead who suffered these wrongs. I note, a new law and pardon in that | :59:57. | :00:02. | |
phraseology which is in the manifesto commitment which H stood | :00:03. | :00:07. | |
on. Supporting this bill, therefore, was not a difficult decision for me | :00:08. | :00:12. | |
at all because it is can -- entirely consistent with the manifesto. Yet | :00:13. | :00:16. | |
we are now faced with not one but two bills that are now aiming to | :00:17. | :00:21. | |
achieve this goal. I was encouraged by the Government's announcdment | :00:22. | :00:24. | |
yesterday that Lord Sharkey's amendment to the policing and crime | :00:25. | :00:33. | |
Bill will be accepted, and whichever of these bills make it into the | :00:34. | :00:38. | |
statute book, it will be a long overdue step. It is extraordinary | :00:39. | :00:42. | |
that there are men still alhve today who live with the stigma of a | :00:43. | :00:46. | |
criminal record for homosextal acts that are no longer illegal. In many | :00:47. | :00:50. | |
cases, they have not been illegal since before I was born. It is 9 | :00:51. | :00:57. | |
years since homosexuality w`s decriminalised in England and Wales, | :00:58. | :01:00. | |
36 years and it was this criminalised in Scotland and 34 | :01:01. | :01:06. | |
years since it was decrimin`lised in Northern Ireland. We often pride | :01:07. | :01:09. | |
ourselves in this place for leading public opinion but in this latter, | :01:10. | :01:15. | |
we are Waverley behind. There are those that still find the idea of | :01:16. | :01:22. | |
homosexuality uncomfortable. I am sure that the vast majority of | :01:23. | :01:25. | |
people who hold those views would accept there is a vast diffdrence | :01:26. | :01:29. | |
between being uncomfortable with the idea of acts of others and that | :01:30. | :01:34. | |
those acts should be illegal. Personally, I don't believe that | :01:35. | :01:37. | |
there is only so much love hn the world that Government needs to step | :01:38. | :01:43. | |
in and dictate to consenting adults where it can and cannot occtr. While | :01:44. | :01:48. | |
homosexual acts are no longdr illegal, the fact that the taint of | :01:49. | :01:52. | |
criminal records for homosexuality still exists is completely out of | :01:53. | :01:56. | |
kilter with modern, progressive and compassionate British society and it | :01:57. | :02:00. | |
is absolutely right that we take action to correct this. Somd people | :02:01. | :02:03. | |
have expressed concern that a bill such as this would lead to the | :02:04. | :02:07. | |
pardoning of rapists and chhld molesters. This is obviouslx not the | :02:08. | :02:12. | |
intent of anyone and I know that there are specific lines in this | :02:13. | :02:19. | |
bill stating that the pardoning must refer to the consensual sex of over | :02:20. | :02:23. | |
16 is only and I am sure th`t the Government's bill will make such | :02:24. | :02:28. | |
assurances also. I also know there are concerns over whether a | :02:29. | :02:32. | |
disregard process should be concerned. I am sure we can come to | :02:33. | :02:36. | |
a reasonable consensus on all these points and it seems the onlx | :02:37. | :02:40. | |
remaining issue is the procdss by which we avoid unintentionally | :02:41. | :02:44. | |
pardoning those who should not be pardoned. Madam Deputy Speaker, we | :02:45. | :02:51. | |
have a golden opportunity for a cross-party bill of huge actual and | :02:52. | :02:56. | |
symbolic significance. I respectfully suggest, therefore | :02:57. | :02:59. | |
that the Government ministers and the honourable member for E`st | :03:00. | :03:02. | |
Dunbartonshire worked together on the details and final wording so | :03:03. | :03:07. | |
that we can pass a bill that members of both houses and of all p`rties | :03:08. | :03:11. | |
can agree upon. And pass thd bill as soon as possible. I have thd | :03:12. | :03:17. | |
pleasure of serving alongside the Member for East Dumbartonshhre on | :03:18. | :03:20. | |
the Culture, Media and Sport select committee. He has only been in this | :03:21. | :03:24. | |
place for 18 months, just as long as I have, and yet in this short time | :03:25. | :03:29. | |
he has already made a great impact. If he and the Government can come to | :03:30. | :03:34. | |
an agreement to make the de`l work, he will have played a key role in | :03:35. | :03:38. | |
securing a great legacy both for himself and for all of us ctrrently | :03:39. | :03:43. | |
serving in this place. Madal Deputy Speaker, Isis port both bills as | :03:44. | :03:47. | |
many people in this House do. - I support both bills in. I don't know | :03:48. | :03:55. | |
which is the best way of getting there, but I hope we get resolution | :03:56. | :03:59. | |
very soon. It is the genuind privilege to take part in this | :04:00. | :04:03. | |
debate and I congratulate the Member for East Dumbartonshire for not only | :04:04. | :04:08. | |
taking this forward as the topic for his bill but for his powerftl speech | :04:09. | :04:12. | |
also. Many members have spoken eloquently about the issue of | :04:13. | :04:17. | |
pardons and apologies and I don t intend in the very short relarks I | :04:18. | :04:21. | |
wish to make to reiterate those arguments. I think that thex are | :04:22. | :04:24. | |
powerful and they make a colpelling case for why we should pass this | :04:25. | :04:30. | |
bill today. I want to focus my remarks on the important amdndments | :04:31. | :04:35. | |
to the protection of freedol sacked 2012 that are in Clause thrde of the | :04:36. | :04:38. | |
honourable member 's bills. I want to do so in reference to a | :04:39. | :04:43. | |
constituent of mine who does want to be named, because as much as the | :04:44. | :04:47. | |
anguish and pain that he has suffered over the years, he knows | :04:48. | :04:50. | |
that he shouldn't be ashamed for what he was cautioned for. His name | :04:51. | :04:58. | |
is Timothy Churchill Coleman. In July 1995, Mr Churchill Coldman was | :04:59. | :05:04. | |
arrested on entering a bar hn Soho by several playing closed policemen | :05:05. | :05:10. | |
and he was accused of solichting or importuning under section 22 of the | :05:11. | :05:16. | |
sexual offences act 1956. Hd denied the accusation, was taken to a | :05:17. | :05:19. | |
police cell and pressured to sign a caution. Leaving aside the fact that | :05:20. | :05:23. | |
he didn't understand what hd was being asked to sign at the time he | :05:24. | :05:28. | |
remains adamant and he is rhght that he did nothing wrong. Mr Chtrchill | :05:29. | :05:32. | |
Coleman has tried every measure imaginable to try to clear his name | :05:33. | :05:37. | |
both in personal representations to several police forces and through my | :05:38. | :05:41. | |
officers. He is quite staggdred to have found out only last ye`r that | :05:42. | :05:46. | |
the offence for which he was cautioned remains an offencd and I | :05:47. | :05:52. | |
think the adding of that offence to the disregard provisions of the 2012 | :05:53. | :05:58. | |
act is a necessary and urgent step that the Government must take and is | :05:59. | :06:01. | |
not contained in this darklx amendment. Honourable member 's have | :06:02. | :06:08. | |
said we are dancing on the head of opinion here in terms of thd | :06:09. | :06:12. | |
process. There are important measures in this bill which the | :06:13. | :06:15. | |
Starkey amendment, as I unddrstand it, does not even mention it for. | :06:16. | :06:26. | |
Let's consider what the leghslative intent for importuning means and | :06:27. | :06:32. | |
direct to the Home Office mhnister just several months ago and the | :06:33. | :06:36. | |
reply I got was that it rem`ins a criminal offence and that the | :06:37. | :06:43. | |
Government has no intention of adjusting the bill. It means that | :06:44. | :06:51. | |
soliciting and importuning, which can range from verbal propositions | :06:52. | :06:54. | |
to smile and winking at a mdmber of the same sex, remains a crilinal | :06:55. | :07:01. | |
offence. That is incoherent and I think, iniquitous and must be | :07:02. | :07:05. | |
changed as a matter of urgency. It means that, logically, gay bars | :07:06. | :07:14. | |
contact ads, dating agencies and phone lines are all illegal and | :07:15. | :07:19. | |
could all be shut down should police interpret the law in the strict | :07:20. | :07:24. | |
manner in which it is set down. In a country where homosexuality has been | :07:25. | :07:28. | |
decriminalised and civil partnership is now legal, to criminalisd the act | :07:29. | :07:32. | |
of attempting to communicatd with somebody of the same sex for the | :07:33. | :07:36. | |
purpose of homosexual relathons to remain a criminal offence, H think, | :07:37. | :07:41. | |
is absurd. That is why I thhnk we have two pass this bill, | :07:42. | :07:43. | |
notwithstanding the very good arguments that have been made about | :07:44. | :07:48. | |
the need to offer in apologx and a pardon. Not least to give | :07:49. | :07:52. | |
constituency like mine some redress, because this stain on his rdcord, if | :07:53. | :07:58. | |
you like, has been a blight on his life. It has made it extremdly | :07:59. | :08:03. | |
difficult for him to apply for jobs. He is a very qualified and talented | :08:04. | :08:06. | |
special educational needs tdacher and he has had to suffer thd | :08:07. | :08:11. | |
indignity in job interview `fter job interview of having to menthon this | :08:12. | :08:14. | |
caution and trying to explahn it away. I think it is for people like | :08:15. | :08:19. | |
him as well as Alan Turing `nd all of those who deserve a pardon and | :08:20. | :08:24. | |
apology that the Minister should, I think, think again. I think the | :08:25. | :08:29. | |
honourable member for Selby and Aintree was right when he s`id that | :08:30. | :08:33. | |
the Minister has come forward with a somewhat slippery argument. I do not | :08:34. | :08:37. | |
think it holds up. I think we can deal with many of the safegtarding | :08:38. | :08:40. | |
concerns in committee and I would urge honourable member is on the | :08:41. | :08:46. | |
other benches to think again, those who intend to abstain or vote | :08:47. | :08:50. | |
against this bill, and join us in the lobby and let's make an | :08:51. | :08:54. | |
important symbolic statement and improve the lives of people like my | :08:55. | :09:00. | |
constituent. It's a great privilege to stand up in this debate `nd can I | :09:01. | :09:03. | |
pay absolute tribute to the honourable member for his bhll, his | :09:04. | :09:07. | |
choice and the way he has ldft this debate. I want to pay tribute also | :09:08. | :09:11. | |
to my honourable friend for Milton Keynes South for the town and his | :09:12. | :09:18. | |
contribution. I know he is ` man of absolute integrity and his words | :09:19. | :09:23. | |
really touched me today. It was also a privilege to witness my honourable | :09:24. | :09:27. | |
friend from Selby and Ainsldy for being a true Yorkshiremen and coming | :09:28. | :09:34. | |
to this chamber and apologising As a Welshman, I know how diffhcult | :09:35. | :09:38. | |
that can be at times, but your words again I thought brought the best of | :09:39. | :09:44. | |
this House out. If I can totch on the honourable member for Rhondda, | :09:45. | :09:50. | |
how he brought this debate to us in this House, with the connection for | :09:51. | :09:56. | |
members of this comments to the shelves we look at as we debate | :09:57. | :09:59. | |
every day. The honourable mdmber for Ilford North, it's a great tribute | :10:00. | :10:06. | |
to, I think, our country and our society that hours of our | :10:07. | :10:11. | |
generation, if you don't mind me saying how generation, much of what | :10:12. | :10:20. | |
we are talking about are alhen concepts of our generation. It is | :10:21. | :10:23. | |
absolutely abhorrent to think that we did this as a society and the | :10:24. | :10:27. | |
parliament, these alien concepts that we are writing now. It is an | :10:28. | :10:32. | |
absolute privilege to be a lember of Parliament at this time and as I | :10:33. | :10:36. | |
think of my children who ard four and younger, as they grow up in our | :10:37. | :10:40. | |
society, they won't have to tackle any of these alien concepts. I think | :10:41. | :10:46. | |
that is the right way to describe it and they won't be coming out as gay | :10:47. | :10:51. | |
or straight, they will simply be going to school as human behngs and | :10:52. | :10:53. | |
members of our society. This is not an English bill, it is | :10:54. | :11:03. | |
an English and where are yot such bill and I do welcome the words of | :11:04. | :11:06. | |
the honourable member about the Scottish government -- Welsh built. | :11:07. | :11:11. | |
Would it be wrong of me to wish the honourable member was a member of | :11:12. | :11:15. | |
the Scottish government and brought the same enthusiasm to this issue in | :11:16. | :11:23. | |
Scotland? So I very much hope that it is followed up their as well We | :11:24. | :11:30. | |
have been talking for a while about this, but in much agreement. There | :11:31. | :11:35. | |
is a hint of sadness that wd are almost at the final hurdle, but | :11:36. | :11:38. | |
there are elements that I think I just wish that we could get together | :11:39. | :11:44. | |
and agree. I stood on the Conservative Party manifesto which | :11:45. | :11:46. | |
was incredibly clear on this issue and I want it done as quickly as | :11:47. | :11:50. | |
possible, and that is why I did welcome yesterday and I am glad | :11:51. | :11:55. | |
there have been heads nodded to the amendments that will deliver this at | :11:56. | :12:00. | |
pace. And we'll deliver this quicker than the Private Members' Bhll would | :12:01. | :12:06. | |
do. And I think that is at the heart of this debate. And I do want to | :12:07. | :12:11. | |
dwell for a moment, if I max, about the process. I hope the Minhster | :12:12. | :12:16. | |
will bring up in his contribution about public awareness of what is | :12:17. | :12:20. | |
currently on offer because H think there is a very good argument for | :12:21. | :12:25. | |
making people aware that thdy can apply for the process and they can | :12:26. | :12:29. | |
get this. And the pardon and disregard process. I will of course | :12:30. | :12:33. | |
give way. Can I just say to the honourable | :12:34. | :12:37. | |
gentleman that I thank him for his support, but he must realisd that | :12:38. | :12:41. | |
the age demographic of the len concerned here is such that they | :12:42. | :12:47. | |
will not apply for this. Thdy will not open themselves up to the shame | :12:48. | :12:52. | |
and humiliation of applying. So this is I am afraid Cloud cuckoo land and | :12:53. | :12:59. | |
has to be a pardon to give them comfort. This is the crux of this | :13:00. | :13:05. | |
and I was getting to the disregard process and we have to think of a | :13:06. | :13:10. | |
way round it. When the Home Office has rejected several applic`tions | :13:11. | :13:14. | |
where the activity was nonconsensual and the other party was unddr 1 at | :13:15. | :13:17. | |
the time, and this disregard process, there has been that level | :13:18. | :13:22. | |
of safety. But I accept the point that we need to look away and that | :13:23. | :13:27. | |
is why I was asking the Minhster to address that issue quite directly | :13:28. | :13:31. | |
how we get out to the demographic we are talking about and we ensure they | :13:32. | :13:37. | |
rightfully get the pardon, `nd above that, the disregard process. Because | :13:38. | :13:45. | |
that clearly and irreparablx... Of course I will give way. I h`ve named | :13:46. | :13:49. | |
an offence soliciting and importuning, not covered by the | :13:50. | :13:54. | |
disregard process. I hope you would agree a criminal offence for that | :13:55. | :13:57. | |
offence, I think society and the House would recognise is now | :13:58. | :14:02. | |
considered unjust and is not covered by the scope of that process, so | :14:03. | :14:06. | |
would he accept the disregard process has limitations addressed in | :14:07. | :14:11. | |
this Bill? I listened to yotr speech with great note and I was hoping the | :14:12. | :14:17. | |
Minister equally was listenhng. And prove he was indeed listening! I | :14:18. | :14:21. | |
think the honourable member for giving way. The member for Woolwich | :14:22. | :14:28. | |
made a passionate speech and to clarify, section 32 of the Sexual | :14:29. | :14:32. | |
Offences Act 1956 in which he referred to in his speech which made | :14:33. | :14:38. | |
soliciting and tuning a crile was repealed in 2004, but solichting | :14:39. | :14:45. | |
still remains a crime. And H will leave that there! This is what I did | :14:46. | :14:48. | |
want to drag out. Within thd amendment the government accepted | :14:49. | :14:54. | |
from the Liberal Democrat pder yesterday is bringing justice to | :14:55. | :14:57. | |
this issue at pace. Bringing justice to this issue with checks and | :14:58. | :15:00. | |
balances. Of course I will give way. H think | :15:01. | :15:07. | |
as people in this place, we have to recognise the importance of language | :15:08. | :15:11. | |
and a Police and Crime Panel is utterly inadequate for dealhng with | :15:12. | :15:17. | |
this. The language is fundalentally important. The issue of livd versus | :15:18. | :15:22. | |
dead, the government's position is intellectually and morally bankrupt | :15:23. | :15:28. | |
on this. I have paid tributd to this debate in my tone and it sedms to be | :15:29. | :15:32. | |
going downhill! What my constituents want is justice. What my | :15:33. | :15:39. | |
constituents want is to seal -- is to see action, not words, wd can | :15:40. | :15:42. | |
debate that but what my constituents have put me here to do is gdt | :15:43. | :15:47. | |
justice, and quickly. I belheve the amendment yesterday is the puickest | :15:48. | :15:51. | |
way to achieve that. I have stood up. I have quietly trod arotnd the | :15:52. | :16:01. | |
issue of this being an Engl`nd - Wales Bill and I want to sed the | :16:02. | :16:05. | |
same justice in Scotland as we are talking about. It is all right to | :16:06. | :16:11. | |
question is on rhetoric and action, even though we agree with most of | :16:12. | :16:15. | |
what you say and we are changing something. But the Scottish | :16:16. | :16:19. | |
government does need to go pace as well and I will not sit herd and | :16:20. | :16:23. | |
take a lot of abuse on this issue where we are debating real `ction | :16:24. | :16:26. | |
and the Scottish government, I am afraid, is quite slow. | :16:27. | :16:37. | |
Is he aware that last year, and international human rights | :16:38. | :16:38. | |
organisation named Scotland as the best country in Europe to bd gay, | :16:39. | :16:43. | |
lesbian, bisexual and transgender? Will he take an assurance the | :16:44. | :16:46. | |
Scottish government very much has these matters at the forefront of | :16:47. | :16:50. | |
its mind? I of course welcome mat and I hope | :16:51. | :16:55. | |
the United Kingdom as well `s Scotland is seen like that `round | :16:56. | :16:59. | |
the world for every community. But I pay particular attention, absolute | :17:00. | :17:06. | |
pleasure in acknowledging Scotland's achievement in that. But whdn you | :17:07. | :17:10. | |
have been in government a while like the SNP in Scotland, you have to | :17:11. | :17:14. | |
prove it with actions as well as words. You cannot just look at what | :17:15. | :17:18. | |
you have been presented, yot are judged on your legislation `nd what | :17:19. | :17:22. | |
has happened. Please, from ` sedentary position... The f`ct you | :17:23. | :17:26. | |
are quoting political slogans at me. Order. I allowed the debate to have | :17:27. | :17:34. | |
a nicer tone and for the vidws to go unchecked but when the honotrable | :17:35. | :17:40. | |
gentleman says you, he is rdferring to the chair. I apologise | :17:41. | :17:45. | |
unreservedly, I am being stoked by my SNP colleagues while tryhng to | :17:46. | :17:48. | |
agree on a lot of things. I will of course give way, one last | :17:49. | :17:53. | |
time. It is worth putting on record we're having this debate today as a | :17:54. | :17:57. | |
result of a raffle basicallx that my honourable friend, his name was | :17:58. | :18:01. | |
drawn out of a hat. A member of the Scottish Parliament wants to take | :18:02. | :18:05. | |
part in a Private Bill, do they do so by building consensus and having | :18:06. | :18:09. | |
an open consultation and showing consensus at every stage. That | :18:10. | :18:12. | |
contrast is particularly important and worth noting in the context of | :18:13. | :18:16. | |
how this debate came about today. The honourable gentleman makes my | :18:17. | :18:21. | |
point for me. You have been in government, you did not need a | :18:22. | :18:27. | |
raffle in Scotland. Madam Ddputy Speaker, you really got me on the | :18:28. | :18:31. | |
now with this you. I will gdt to the point, which is the honourable | :18:32. | :18:36. | |
gentleman makes my point for me which is they have been in | :18:37. | :18:39. | |
government in Scotland and did not need a raffle. I will now sht down, | :18:40. | :18:46. | |
unless you are temptingly to contribute further by trying to get | :18:47. | :18:53. | |
where I started! An absolutd tribute to the vast majority of this bill, I | :18:54. | :18:58. | |
pay absolute tribute to the government for conceding to the | :18:59. | :19:02. | |
amendment yesterday. And wanting to see justice and echoing agahn that I | :19:03. | :19:06. | |
am so delighted to be a member of Parliament, where we discuss these | :19:07. | :19:10. | |
alien concepts and we see jtstice for it. | :19:11. | :19:19. | |
Before I start, I want to gdt the sartorial bit of the debate out of | :19:20. | :19:23. | |
the way as quickly as possible. I am not wearing a pink because we are | :19:24. | :19:26. | |
discussing gay men's relationships, but today is Were Pink day for | :19:27. | :19:33. | |
breast cancer and I would lhke to see the whole chamber in pink. Those | :19:34. | :19:38. | |
of you who came to the event I hosted, and I did note the pueue, | :19:39. | :19:48. | |
over 200 MPs came, dressed somewhat flamboyantly in their photographs, | :19:49. | :19:52. | |
so treat them later. There has been a lot of humour today, but ht is | :19:53. | :19:56. | |
something very serious. His name is on the bill, Alan Turing made Singh | :19:57. | :20:05. | |
as big a difference of any individual in the Second World War. | :20:06. | :20:10. | |
It is estimated he shortens the war by two years and that he saved 0 | :20:11. | :20:16. | |
million lives. There were m`ny heroes who suffered and lost their | :20:17. | :20:21. | |
lives, there is no one person we can identify like that. Unfortunately | :20:22. | :20:26. | |
for him, what he did was secret at Bletchley Park, he was not ` hero, | :20:27. | :20:30. | |
he was not welcomed with a ticker tape or given a medal or anxthing | :20:31. | :20:34. | |
else. So when he ended up in a situation of being charged with | :20:35. | :20:38. | |
gross indecency, not for having sex with someone under age, not for | :20:39. | :20:42. | |
having sex in public or beh`ving in a lewd way, but having been burgled | :20:43. | :20:48. | |
and having had to call on the public service of the police when ht of | :20:49. | :20:52. | |
course became obvious that he lived with his partner, they were both | :20:53. | :20:59. | |
charged with gross indecencx. His partner was let off but he dnded up | :21:00. | :21:02. | |
beating guilty under legal `dvice and was given the brutal choice of | :21:03. | :21:08. | |
going to prison or facing mddical castration -- pleading guilty. He | :21:09. | :21:15. | |
was injected for a year. Th`t causes the growth of breast tissue, | :21:16. | :21:20. | |
impotence and depression. So no little wonder that he took his own | :21:21. | :21:26. | |
life with cyanide two years later. On top of that, one thing that was | :21:27. | :21:30. | |
very important is the Alan Turing is that he lost his security clearance. | :21:31. | :21:33. | |
They allowed him technicallx to stay in his job and is the right -- the | :21:34. | :21:42. | |
right academic papers but as a leading developer of computdr | :21:43. | :21:45. | |
technology, what he did was so much part of him that that also was his | :21:46. | :21:51. | |
identity. His identity at work and in his person was removed. This idea | :21:52. | :22:00. | |
of sexual orientation has not disappeared and is still pr`ctised | :22:01. | :22:04. | |
in many parts of the world, still advertised in America, and still | :22:05. | :22:09. | |
people in this country, with health care connections, who believe that | :22:10. | :22:16. | |
homosexual allows -- homosexuality can be killed. The idea we `re | :22:17. | :22:19. | |
talking about a parallel to witchcraft from medieval tiles and | :22:20. | :22:24. | |
this is just technical is not true. Many people were tortured. @version | :22:25. | :22:31. | |
therapy included giving people nausea inducing drugs, whild showing | :22:32. | :22:36. | |
them pictures of male homosdxual sex. Some were electrocuted, some of | :22:37. | :22:41. | |
them were burned, some of them had all sorts of horrible things done to | :22:42. | :22:46. | |
them as part of this. And wd need to realise these people were | :22:47. | :22:51. | |
systematically tortured by the state and by health services. And this is | :22:52. | :22:57. | |
not that long ago. I was alhve when the law changed. Some of us here | :22:58. | :23:02. | |
were. But this is not medieval times, there are still people, as | :23:03. | :23:08. | |
Stonewall has shown in their survey last year, there are still people | :23:09. | :23:12. | |
associated with health care practice perhaps on the edges, but bdlieve | :23:13. | :23:19. | |
that still. And we need to be very, very clear. We have seen thd | :23:20. | :23:29. | |
approach change, the member for Selby I thought was so honest and so | :23:30. | :23:34. | |
moving in talking about how he had changed. And that is what wd have | :23:35. | :23:39. | |
seen. It is not just a mattdr of social change. What we do in this | :23:40. | :23:44. | |
place drives social change. Equal marriage has helped to change | :23:45. | :23:48. | |
society. But this anomaly is still here. And that small amendmdnt on | :23:49. | :23:54. | |
the policing bill will simply not do what this does. And I don't mean in | :23:55. | :23:59. | |
process, process can be sorted out in whatever way necessary in | :24:00. | :24:02. | |
committee and we should not be arguing about the head of a pin or | :24:03. | :24:07. | |
anything else. What voting this through does is it sends a lessage. | :24:08. | :24:12. | |
As the member for Ilford North talked about, it is not the case, as | :24:13. | :24:19. | |
was earlier mentioned by thd member year for Sheffield West, th`t it is | :24:20. | :24:26. | |
an issue no more to be gay hn schools. It still is, a lot of young | :24:27. | :24:32. | |
people hide with it and thex are in pain. If we vote against thhs today | :24:33. | :24:37. | |
or because of some piece of trickery in this place that we talk `bout... | :24:38. | :24:43. | |
The message we send out will be appalling. We need to take our | :24:44. | :24:48. | |
responsibility, something I do not talk about much, but for thd | :24:49. | :24:51. | |
Commonwealth. We hosted the Commonwealth Games two years ago in | :24:52. | :24:55. | |
Glasgow. In the run-up, we had all the discussion about the cotntries | :24:56. | :24:59. | |
where people are persecuted and imprisoned. That part of thd British | :25:00. | :25:06. | |
United Kingdom Commonwealth. And so for the mother of Parliaments here, | :25:07. | :25:11. | |
that is heard across those countries, to talk it out or vote it | :25:12. | :25:17. | |
down sends an appalling message We have seen how simply a vote to leave | :25:18. | :25:21. | |
the European Union has empowered people in a tiny minority to feel | :25:22. | :25:28. | |
somehow enabled to have acthons of race hate or indeed homophobia. So | :25:29. | :25:35. | |
saying we don't think we should do this would give exactly that same | :25:36. | :25:40. | |
impairment -- and power mad across the country. Sorry, the two things | :25:41. | :25:46. | |
are not equivalent and it is not a matter of speed. These men have | :25:47. | :25:51. | |
waited four decades, five ddcades. I think we should actually do them the | :25:52. | :25:54. | |
honour of trying to do this right and get the biggest impact. | :25:55. | :26:02. | |
People campaign not just Al`n Turing, we have pardoned hil, that | :26:03. | :26:07. | |
is the slightly bizarre thing, but it is our job to make sure that all | :26:08. | :26:11. | |
those other silent he that have suffered in the past are pardoned as | :26:12. | :26:16. | |
well. So I call on the membdrs opposite, don't use technic`l thing | :26:17. | :26:20. | |
or feeling uncomfortable about supporting this. Abstaining will not | :26:21. | :26:25. | |
do it, voting against it will not do it. As a House we need to sdnd this | :26:26. | :26:30. | |
through with a massive majority today so this voice cannot be | :26:31. | :26:35. | |
ignored in any part of the world. Thank you, Madam Deputy Spe`ker It | :26:36. | :26:40. | |
is a pleasure to follow the powerful speech of the member for Central | :26:41. | :26:44. | |
Ayrshire, and this speech of the member for Greenwich and wotld itch. | :26:45. | :26:48. | |
I spoke after him when we both had our maiden speeches, he madd a | :26:49. | :26:52. | |
thoughtful speech then and has done again today. May I commend the | :26:53. | :27:01. | |
proposer of this motion for his excellent speech this morning? You | :27:02. | :27:02. | |
has brought personal experidnce passion and even humour to ` very | :27:03. | :27:10. | |
serious subject. -- he has. He will go down in history in assochation | :27:11. | :27:14. | |
with this bill, but in any dvent he has gone down is in the ann`ls of | :27:15. | :27:19. | |
this bill as the man who tr`nsformed Edwina Currie. Like the honourable | :27:20. | :27:23. | |
member for East Dunbartonshhre, I was also born in the 60 's so I m | :27:24. | :27:32. | |
clearly less well preserved. Like him, and preparing for this debate, | :27:33. | :27:36. | |
I looked for the first time into the Wolfenden report. It was published | :27:37. | :27:43. | |
11 years before was born. Circumstances it described lade it | :27:44. | :27:46. | |
sound like a report produced in a previous century. As do the Brits | :27:47. | :27:51. | |
preparations necessitated bx the laws of the time to allow g`y men in | :27:52. | :27:56. | |
secret, using pseudonyms like Mr White and the doctor to present | :27:57. | :28:00. | |
evidence on their behalf. The report is damning and it is also so humane | :28:01. | :28:05. | |
that it is a wonder that it still took a further ten years for English | :28:06. | :28:10. | |
law to be amended in 1967. H find it incredible that it was not tntil | :28:11. | :28:23. | |
1980 that the law changed Scotland, still later in Northern Ireland | :28:24. | :28:25. | |
Will he give way? Happily. Ht is a matter for regret that the law did | :28:26. | :28:28. | |
not change in Scotland until 19 1, but for many years the Crown Office | :28:29. | :28:31. | |
in Scotland had a policy of not prosecuting for these offences. I am | :28:32. | :28:36. | |
not aware and I am grateful to be informed. It is extraordinary and I | :28:37. | :28:39. | |
am pleased to hear that was the case. I know the honourable lady | :28:40. | :28:43. | |
will think that symbolism is also important. | :28:44. | :28:49. | |
That it was so long is an indictment in itself, but the laws passed in | :28:50. | :28:57. | |
here in 67 started a long process which is still continuing and | :28:58. | :29:02. | |
continued in 2015 with the Government's removal in the Armed | :29:03. | :29:07. | |
Forces act as homosexuality as a reason for discharging a melber of | :29:08. | :29:10. | |
the Armed Forces. I hope th`t changes in legislation had not just | :29:11. | :29:14. | |
reflected a changing mood in the British people but, as the | :29:15. | :29:17. | |
honourable lady from Central Ayrshire said, have reinforced and | :29:18. | :29:21. | |
led a profound change for the better. By background, I am a | :29:22. | :29:29. | |
historian. Even if much less professional than some of those that | :29:30. | :29:33. | |
grace the benches of this House I would like to say that studxing | :29:34. | :29:36. | |
British history produces nothing other than a cosy reassurance of the | :29:37. | :29:41. | |
inevitable progress of a grdat nation. Improvements in economic, | :29:42. | :29:46. | |
social and welfare provisions, a shift in sensibility, a growing | :29:47. | :29:49. | |
liberal acceptance of differences and a humane application of the law. | :29:50. | :29:56. | |
Well, to a point. But no ond can read social history but be `ppalled | :29:57. | :30:00. | |
by the attitudes of our fordbears so often entrenched in laws passed by | :30:01. | :30:05. | |
this House. Nowhere is historic injustice more apparent than in the | :30:06. | :30:09. | |
attitude that in every aspect of life, the state had a role, indeed, | :30:10. | :30:14. | |
an obligation to legislate for personal urology, an attitude | :30:15. | :30:17. | |
Wolfenden had to fight to change. This had direct inhumane | :30:18. | :30:22. | |
consequences such as the offences under discussion this morning, as | :30:23. | :30:26. | |
well as indirect victims, pdrhaps most poignantly those affected by | :30:27. | :30:36. | |
the incapacity laws. I was shocked by the speech from the membdr for | :30:37. | :30:43. | |
Rhondda, not just that he w`s once a conservative but also shockdd about | :30:44. | :30:46. | |
what he said about Neville Chamberlain, who I always r`ther | :30:47. | :30:49. | |
admired. Neville Chamberlain came to this house to reform a challenging | :30:50. | :30:56. | |
bit of legislation of its thme, laws on a legitimacy in 1920. Thd fact | :30:57. | :31:01. | |
that he took the inhumane step of attacking his own backbenchdrs for | :31:02. | :31:04. | |
being homosexual shocks me `nd is a case of double standards. | :31:05. | :31:09. | |
We can wonder what our preddcessors were thinking about. It is perhaps | :31:10. | :31:13. | |
more sobering to consider what our successors may think of us. These | :31:14. | :31:19. | |
historic offences lead to a genuine and difficult dilemma. It is the | :31:20. | :31:23. | |
role of this house to overttrn injustice, to condemn bad l`ws and | :31:24. | :31:27. | |
lead the way against prejudhce. My fear in the past has been to attempt | :31:28. | :31:31. | |
to address all the wrongs would be an all in compass thing and | :31:32. | :31:34. | |
overwhelming burden for this House and may indeed prevent us from being | :31:35. | :31:37. | |
a forward-looking chamber doing what is needful to build a modern country | :31:38. | :31:42. | |
if we focus too much on redressing the problems of the old. Yot may be | :31:43. | :31:47. | |
disappointed but I had hoped that those convicted of historic offence, | :31:48. | :31:52. | |
while it would not heal the pain of conviction Nora practical ilpact, | :31:53. | :31:57. | |
that the experience of having a criminal record, but the knowledge | :31:58. | :32:00. | |
that Parliament had abolishdd the offences would providing itself | :32:01. | :32:05. | |
sufficient sucker, or certahnly some sucker. -- sufficient succotr, or | :32:06. | :32:16. | |
certainly some. There was an act in 2012, there is the proper process | :32:17. | :32:20. | |
required through which the historic record should be amended. The second | :32:21. | :32:25. | |
was the royal pardon granted to Alan Turing in 2013 by Her Majesty The | :32:26. | :32:30. | |
Queen. That royal pardon was said at the time to be an exception`l case | :32:31. | :32:36. | |
for a truly exceptional man. And no one could disagree. Here was a man | :32:37. | :32:40. | |
who can lay claim to being one of the founders of the Modica `nd - | :32:41. | :32:44. | |
modern technical age, his actions might have shortened the war by two | :32:45. | :32:49. | |
years, saving tens if not htndreds of thousands of lives. The stakes | :32:50. | :32:52. | |
were raised considerably by the honourable lady, I have no reason to | :32:53. | :33:01. | |
challenge. And yet the statd he served so well confronted whth the | :33:02. | :33:05. | |
choice of jail or chemical castration, a choice which lay well | :33:06. | :33:09. | |
have led to his tragic earlx death. At the Royal pardon, which H fully | :33:10. | :33:13. | |
endorse, gives rise to an obvious dilemma. There were many hundreds of | :33:14. | :33:17. | |
exceptional men convicted of similar offences. There were more, perhaps, | :33:18. | :33:22. | |
who were not exceptional, jtst normal, average people going about | :33:23. | :33:26. | |
their lives. How can one be pardoned and not the rest? To say to anyone | :33:27. | :33:36. | |
convicted of an offence that they have been subject to agree this | :33:37. | :33:39. | |
historic injustice but they are not alone, for they are in honotred | :33:40. | :33:41. | |
company, is one thing. As soon as you start removing the honotred | :33:42. | :33:44. | |
company because they are solehow special, the argument falls. It was | :33:45. | :33:48. | |
right and proper to recognise the injustice done to Alan Turing, it | :33:49. | :33:52. | |
must therefore be right and proper to recognise the injustice done to | :33:53. | :33:54. | |
others. I was therefore pleased that the | :33:55. | :33:58. | |
manifesto on which I stood, I was going to quoted but it alre`dy has | :33:59. | :34:01. | |
been by my honourable friend, the manifesto on which I stood lade it | :34:02. | :34:04. | |
clear that the Conservative Party stood full square in seeking reform | :34:05. | :34:09. | |
in this area. I welcome the fact that this commitment is being made | :34:10. | :34:13. | |
real in the other place with amendments being made in colmittee | :34:14. | :34:16. | |
to the Government is by polhcing and crime Bill by the normal -- noble | :34:17. | :34:21. | |
lord Lord Sharkey, which thd Government supports and | :34:22. | :34:28. | |
substantially reproduces cl`uses 32 C and 323. | :34:29. | :34:33. | |
I am delighted that whether or not the bill we debate this morning does | :34:34. | :34:37. | |
or does not make it to the statute books, we have the benefit of both | :34:38. | :34:41. | |
belt and braces. Some good will come of this debate. I would congratulate | :34:42. | :34:46. | |
again the honourable member for East Dunbartonshire for bringing forward | :34:47. | :34:49. | |
this bill and would say that it is a generous act of the honourable | :34:50. | :34:52. | |
gentlemen to use his slot to record legislation which would onlx impact | :34:53. | :34:56. | |
England and Wales, which is therefore less likely to directly | :34:57. | :34:59. | |
impact his own constituents, this speaks volumes to his commitment and | :35:00. | :35:05. | |
passion for this subject. I understand that however | :35:06. | :35:08. | |
well-intentioned the bill bdfore the house, the Government believes it | :35:09. | :35:11. | |
suffers from technical flaws, particularly that pardons m`y | :35:12. | :35:15. | |
automatically be granted to individuals who committed acts that | :35:16. | :35:17. | |
remain illegal. I appreciatd that from my reading of the bill, the | :35:18. | :35:22. | |
honourable proposal has attdmpted to address those concerns in clause one | :35:23. | :35:27. | |
and four C, saying that offdnces would be excluded in the evdnt that | :35:28. | :35:33. | |
they remain an offence on the date that the bill becomes law, `nd the | :35:34. | :35:36. | |
bill makes clear the requirdment of consent. | :35:37. | :35:42. | |
The Government's concern, as a understudy, is that offences which | :35:43. | :35:44. | |
would automatically be pardoned might not have passed the tdst | :35:45. | :35:48. | |
required under the 2012 disregard provisions. I appreciate thd | :35:49. | :35:51. | |
Government has a difficult path to walk and would not wish to send the | :35:52. | :35:55. | |
wrong message from this place, I'm sure it would not wish to ilpugn | :35:56. | :35:59. | |
those seeking a pardon becatse of some isolated cases. I apprdciate | :36:00. | :36:04. | |
the Sharkey amendment which could be amended in this place itself may be | :36:05. | :36:08. | |
a lesson bon Accord glamorots way of securing the changes. I belheve that | :36:09. | :36:12. | |
almost all of us want to sed them. It may be the most effectivd. Having | :36:13. | :36:16. | |
said that, the member for E`st Dunbartonshire produced a Roach as | :36:17. | :36:22. | |
to how the Government concerns might be addressed, and I look forward to | :36:23. | :36:29. | |
the ministers winding up. Can I commend the honourabld member | :36:30. | :36:32. | |
for East Dunbartonshire for bringing forward this bill. Can I | :36:33. | :36:37. | |
particularly praise a number of speeches that we have heard in the | :36:38. | :36:40. | |
chamber today. It is unfair to single people out, but I am going | :36:41. | :36:44. | |
to, because I think there w`s a brilliant speeches in the chamber | :36:45. | :36:49. | |
today and I will, if I may, highlights the honourable mdmber the | :36:50. | :36:52. | |
East Dunbartonshire himself, the honourable member for Rhondda, my | :36:53. | :36:55. | |
honourable friend the member for Milton Keynes South, and my | :36:56. | :37:00. | |
honourable friend the member for Selby at Ainstree, all of whom, I | :37:01. | :37:05. | |
thought, mate fantastic contributions to the debate in their | :37:06. | :37:08. | |
own but different ways. Can I say from the start th`t | :37:09. | :37:13. | |
despite my rather unfair reputation, I would say, I don't have any | :37:14. | :37:21. | |
intention of taking the clock down to 2:30pm or anything of th`t. I am | :37:22. | :37:27. | |
is keen to you from the minhster as I am sure everyone else's. But I | :37:28. | :37:30. | |
think it is important that those of those who do not particularly | :37:31. | :37:34. | |
support the bill have an opportunity to express why we don't. I think | :37:35. | :37:38. | |
what we have heard in the ddbate today is that everyone agreds with | :37:39. | :37:41. | |
the same sentiments, and I should make it clear from the word go that | :37:42. | :37:46. | |
if we are talking about the principles involved as far `s I see | :37:47. | :37:51. | |
them, should the fact that somebody was gay have ever been a crhme in | :37:52. | :37:55. | |
any shape or form them quitd clearly the answer was no, of coursd not. | :37:56. | :38:01. | |
Should we think any less of anybody ever convicted of any of thdse | :38:02. | :38:06. | |
crimes, no, of course we should not. I would hope and believe th`t that | :38:07. | :38:10. | |
is a sentiment that everybody in this house can take as read. The | :38:11. | :38:15. | |
issue is whether or not we get into the issue of widespread and blanket | :38:16. | :38:21. | |
pardon for these particular offences. As my honourable friend | :38:22. | :38:26. | |
for Ireland and South Down said about the approach taken by the | :38:27. | :38:29. | |
honourable member for Rush Cliff, it is not as simple as it looks. | :38:30. | :38:35. | |
Unfortunately she has just left but I would like to put on record my | :38:36. | :38:42. | |
praise for the intervention from the honourable lady from Livingston who | :38:43. | :38:47. | |
I felt made one of the most valuable contributions in this debatd when | :38:48. | :38:51. | |
she made the point to say... She made two very good points which can | :38:52. | :38:54. | |
weigh heavily on the house. The first one was very powerful, should | :38:55. | :39:00. | |
a gay person ever had to cole out? Of course they should not. People's | :39:01. | :39:08. | |
sexual orientation is a reldvant. When we get to the stage in this | :39:09. | :39:12. | |
country that it is an irreldvance, that cannot come soon enough, in my | :39:13. | :39:16. | |
opinion, it should be irreldvant what anyone's sexual orient`tion is | :39:17. | :39:20. | |
and I look forward to the d`y, as she does, when nobody should ever | :39:21. | :39:23. | |
have to come out as being g`y. The second point that she m`de in | :39:24. | :39:27. | |
relation to the bill, which I think is very powerful and somethhng that | :39:28. | :39:31. | |
the Government might wish to consider, I would not say it has | :39:32. | :39:34. | |
changed my mind about the bhll but it certainly has weighed he`vily, | :39:35. | :39:40. | |
she did say that this bill going through its second reading `nd going | :39:41. | :39:43. | |
into committee and coming b`ck from a report stage and a third reading | :39:44. | :39:46. | |
would inevitably mean that these issues would gain more scrutiny in | :39:47. | :39:52. | |
the House than a fan amendmdnt was simply accepted in the Housd of | :39:53. | :39:55. | |
Lords and came back into thd House of Commons for maybe an hour's | :39:56. | :40:00. | |
debate maximum, two I was m`ybe you're not even that sometiles. It | :40:01. | :40:05. | |
was, in effect, mod -- nodddd through without scrutiny. I think | :40:06. | :40:10. | |
there is some relevance in that point. It might be something that | :40:11. | :40:15. | |
the Government might not want to consider, I had not really given it | :40:16. | :40:18. | |
much thought before but I thought she made that point very well. | :40:19. | :40:22. | |
I must say, when I first he`rd about this bill my initial reaction was to | :40:23. | :40:26. | |
think that it sounded as if it was a bill that should be titled The | :40:27. | :40:33. | |
Rewriting Of History Bill. That is a concept with which I am not | :40:34. | :40:41. | |
generally comfortable. Therd are plenty of ugly, evil, wrong things | :40:42. | :40:45. | |
that have happened in the p`st, but they are what they are. It hs very | :40:46. | :40:50. | |
easy for us in this House to criticise people who were in this | :40:51. | :40:54. | |
House in the past, very easx. I did it at the start of my speech by | :40:55. | :40:58. | |
saying that these things ard being a crime. But I would say, Mad`m Deputy | :40:59. | :41:02. | |
Speaker, there will be things that we pass in this House today which we | :41:03. | :41:06. | |
all pass with the best of intentions that in 100 years' time, no doubt | :41:07. | :41:12. | |
members of Parliament then will come along and say, do you know what it | :41:13. | :41:16. | |
is disgusting that they passed those particular offences at that time and | :41:17. | :41:20. | |
they should be... They should have been ashamed for doing that. And I | :41:21. | :41:24. | |
think that we should always be slightly wary of imposing otr modern | :41:25. | :41:29. | |
day judgments on the past. H think it is an easy thing to do btt I | :41:30. | :41:34. | |
don't think it is necessarily always fire to the people who make | :41:35. | :41:37. | |
decisions on what they thought were the best interests of the country at | :41:38. | :41:41. | |
the time. We thought they wdre wrong, RBC, but they thought they | :41:42. | :41:43. | |
were doing what was right. H will give way. | :41:44. | :41:48. | |
Does he not think we should be a bit more concerned with people still | :41:49. | :41:55. | |
alive and suffering, rather than our own vainglory in the future when we | :41:56. | :42:00. | |
are dead! Well, I was going to get onto that point because the | :42:01. | :42:04. | |
honourable member made a fahr point. If she will forgive me, I whll get | :42:05. | :42:09. | |
onto that in a second, becatse he did make a fair point. I thhnk we | :42:10. | :42:13. | |
should be wary, Madam Deputx Speaker, that we do not get into a | :42:14. | :42:18. | |
habit in this house which e`ch - we appear to be getting into, where we | :42:19. | :42:22. | |
always apologise for things other people have done in the past. Unlike | :42:23. | :42:27. | |
Mike honourable friend for Selby who was clearly a notable exception I | :42:28. | :42:33. | |
very rarely apologise for the things we have done and I suspect the | :42:34. | :42:37. | |
public are keen for us to apologise for the mistakes we have made rather | :42:38. | :42:41. | |
than the easy option of the mistakes people made hundreds of years ago. I | :42:42. | :42:47. | |
take Tony Blair as an example, very keen to apologise for slavery from | :42:48. | :42:51. | |
somebody else hundreds of ydars previously but did not apologise for | :42:52. | :42:57. | |
the war in Iraq. More peopld would have bought it with well to | :42:58. | :43:00. | |
apologise for the decisions he took rather than those many years | :43:01. | :43:05. | |
previously. I don't like generally that particular approach to | :43:06. | :43:11. | |
politics. And I do think he was chastised slightly for it, but my | :43:12. | :43:14. | |
honourable friend for Cardiff North was absolutely right to slightly | :43:15. | :43:19. | |
pull up our friends from thd Scottish Nationalist party for | :43:20. | :43:22. | |
coming here and chastising the Minister for being very latd in the | :43:23. | :43:26. | |
day and going very slow and the rest of it when this bill introdtced only | :43:27. | :43:32. | |
applies to England and Wales, the Minister is going virtually all the | :43:33. | :43:38. | |
way the SNP would like. An `wful long way to meet their requdsts I | :43:39. | :43:42. | |
would have thought it churlhsh of them not to give him more credit for | :43:43. | :43:48. | |
that. Whereas the Scottish Administration in Scotland hs not | :43:49. | :43:52. | |
introducing this law when it has had plenty of opportunity, it would be | :43:53. | :43:58. | |
interesting to do a Freedom of Information request to see how many | :43:59. | :44:02. | |
letters the Scottish governlent have received from SNP MPs about | :44:03. | :44:04. | |
introducing this law in the Scottish Parliament. I think they should be | :44:05. | :44:09. | |
wary of criticising the govdrnment when the government has gond an | :44:10. | :44:14. | |
awful lot further than the SNP administration has in Scotl`nd. And | :44:15. | :44:17. | |
a bit of humility on that p`rticular point would not have gone a mess. | :44:18. | :44:23. | |
And in terms of the substance, I said the honourable member for East | :44:24. | :44:26. | |
Dunbartonshire made a good point when he said it was a good | :44:27. | :44:31. | |
rhetorical flourish but it was a very good point when he said surely | :44:32. | :44:34. | |
we should be more concerned about the living than the dead. Dtring his | :44:35. | :44:40. | |
speech. And I think there is something in that. I think that the | :44:41. | :44:45. | |
problem is when you start going down this route, it becomes very | :44:46. | :44:50. | |
difficult to try and stop the juggernaut in its process. @nd I | :44:51. | :44:55. | |
think where people try and draw distinctions becomes very dhfficult. | :44:56. | :45:03. | |
For example, once you have pardoned Alan Turing and I have not heard | :45:04. | :45:06. | |
anybody say that should not have happened, it then becomes an | :45:07. | :45:09. | |
intellectual nonsense to deprive that same pardon the other people | :45:10. | :45:15. | |
convicted of exactly the sale offences, but just did not happen to | :45:16. | :45:23. | |
have as exciting and achievd as much in their lives outside, in their | :45:24. | :45:31. | |
job. Because of course, the sexuality of people is absolutely | :45:32. | :45:35. | |
irrelevant to the achievements of Dr Alan Turing. It should not be | :45:36. | :45:38. | |
because of his achievements that he got a pardon, he was pardondd for | :45:39. | :45:42. | |
something that was irrelevant, as far as I can see, to his | :45:43. | :45:46. | |
achievements. If he is pardoned for that, it becomes very difficult not | :45:47. | :45:53. | |
to pardon the people. Of cotrse I think the point of the honotrable | :45:54. | :45:56. | |
gentleman for East Dunbartonshire rightly was making is once the | :45:57. | :46:00. | |
government have accepted thd point that people who are deceased should | :46:01. | :46:04. | |
be pardoned, it then becomes very difficult intellectually to argue, | :46:05. | :46:07. | |
why should that not apply to people still alive? It is a very b`d point | :46:08. | :46:12. | |
and I look forward to hearing the Minister's ancestor that issue. | :46:13. | :46:23. | |
He describes it as a juggernaut But as my honourable friend madd clear, | :46:24. | :46:28. | |
given this is a victimless crime, what possible harm could it do, | :46:29. | :46:33. | |
rather than good, to pardon people who were in essence committdd no | :46:34. | :46:40. | |
crime at all? I don't disagree with the sentiment and I made th`t point | :46:41. | :46:46. | |
at the beginning. My point hs this, the honourable gentleman with this | :46:47. | :46:52. | |
particular bill has selected a certain group of offences. Now, | :46:53. | :46:56. | |
there are many offences and my Arab friend for Calder Valley made this | :46:57. | :47:00. | |
point during his speech and it is a very fair point -- my honourable | :47:01. | :47:04. | |
friend. Other offences have been committed. What I would call also | :47:05. | :47:09. | |
victimless crimes that people have committed in the past the honourable | :47:10. | :47:15. | |
gentleman says from a sedentary position, such as? The metrhc | :47:16. | :47:25. | |
martyrs is a prime example. Steve Cockburn has since died with a | :47:26. | :47:31. | |
criminal conviction was selling produce in imperial measures. That, | :47:32. | :47:37. | |
I would argue to the honour`ble gentleman, is a victimless crime, | :47:38. | :47:41. | |
the customers were happy, hd was happy, no victim. He got a criminal | :47:42. | :47:46. | |
conviction and he died with that. He still has a criminal conviction It | :47:47. | :47:51. | |
has not been posthumously p`rdoned. And I would gently say this is the | :47:52. | :47:56. | |
point about the juggernaut H am talking about, is that if the | :47:57. | :48:03. | |
bill... If the honourable gdntleman wants to intervene, I am happy to | :48:04. | :48:09. | |
give way. I am sorry, Madam Deputy Speaker, I am struggling with the | :48:10. | :48:12. | |
honourable gentleman's conndction between the metric martyrs who I | :48:13. | :48:17. | |
don't recall where chemically castrated, arrested or torttred And | :48:18. | :48:22. | |
perhaps he will remain to bd of that detail I have forgotten? I was not | :48:23. | :48:26. | |
aware the honourable gentlelan's bill only apply to people chemically | :48:27. | :48:30. | |
castrated and tortured. Is he now saying that is what the bill applies | :48:31. | :48:35. | |
to you? The point he is makhng is a complete nonsense and he must know | :48:36. | :48:40. | |
that. I was responding to an intervention from his honourable | :48:41. | :48:43. | |
friend who said, are there `ny examples of victimless crimds where | :48:44. | :48:47. | |
people having, no record th`t has not been pardoned? I gave a very | :48:48. | :48:53. | |
good example. I should say his honourable friend was nodding in | :48:54. | :48:55. | |
agreement when I gave him the example. So if the bill, thhs is the | :48:56. | :49:06. | |
thrust. If the bill... I am very sorry that the SNP have become so | :49:07. | :49:09. | |
dominant in Scotland that they are not used to hearing alternative | :49:10. | :49:13. | |
opinions and I am sorry that they are so intolerant of anybodx who | :49:14. | :49:18. | |
holds a different opinion to them. It doesn't reflect well of them My | :49:19. | :49:23. | |
point is I think the bill would have been easier to justify if it had | :49:24. | :49:28. | |
included all the fences which in the past, all convictions in thd past, | :49:29. | :49:32. | |
which are now no longer criles that were victimless -- offences. That | :49:33. | :49:38. | |
would be logical. It is verx difficult to only pick out certain | :49:39. | :49:43. | |
crimes to justify that, rather than all people who have convicthons for | :49:44. | :49:47. | |
those kind of offences. And there are others that have alreadx been | :49:48. | :49:51. | |
discussed. I will give way. Genuinely grateful for giving way. | :49:52. | :49:56. | |
At the beginning of his contribution, he did warn us we | :49:57. | :50:00. | |
might not be listening to one of his lengthy contributions and hd would | :50:01. | :50:05. | |
sit down in order to enable the front bench to argue their point. | :50:06. | :50:10. | |
Can I ask when that might bd? How long he thinks he might be? Simply | :50:11. | :50:16. | |
because I want to put on record very forcefully our front bench's support | :50:17. | :50:20. | |
for this bill. And I am worried that I will not be able to get to my feet | :50:21. | :50:25. | |
in order to do so! Madam Deputy Speaker, we have got | :50:26. | :50:29. | |
one hour and five minutes ldft of the debate, I think about three | :50:30. | :50:32. | |
hours was taken up by peopld speaking in favour of the bhll. I | :50:33. | :50:37. | |
feel that I think at least four or five interventions in my brhef | :50:38. | :50:43. | |
comments so far... If the honourable lady... If people don't intdrvene on | :50:44. | :50:47. | |
my speech, I can clearly get through it a bit quicker, but I think it | :50:48. | :50:53. | |
would be a sad state of aff`irs is the only speech is allowed to be | :50:54. | :50:57. | |
heard in a debate with thosd in favour of a particular bill, that | :50:58. | :51:01. | |
would be a sad state of our democracy that is what she hs | :51:02. | :51:05. | |
arguing. She has put on record has support, if she wants to spdak more, | :51:06. | :51:10. | |
she's very welcome. I will conclude, but it is the concerns my rhght | :51:11. | :51:14. | |
honourable friend for Rushcliffe Haddin government that we wdre told | :51:15. | :51:18. | |
about by our right honourable friend, that they are given a | :51:19. | :51:24. | |
hearing. This does open, legislation of this type, even what the | :51:25. | :51:29. | |
government have agreed to in the Lords, does open up a possibility | :51:30. | :51:35. | |
and probability and certainly justification for pardoning of the | :51:36. | :51:38. | |
people who have been convicted of other crimes, now no longer criminal | :51:39. | :51:44. | |
offences, that we do not believe should be criminal offences. | :51:45. | :51:47. | |
Especially where they were `lso victimless. And I hope the Linister, | :51:48. | :51:51. | |
in his remarks, will address this particular point as to whether or | :51:52. | :51:55. | |
not the government intends to go further down this line or whether it | :51:56. | :52:01. | |
intends to finish here with these particular offences and if so, what | :52:02. | :52:06. | |
the logic of that is? For example, there are people who have attempted | :52:07. | :52:12. | |
to commit suicide who are gtilty of a criminal offence. Do we think that | :52:13. | :52:17. | |
they should be given a pardon? Are they not worthy of a pardon? These | :52:18. | :52:22. | |
things, I don't see why we should cherry pick certain offences, there | :52:23. | :52:27. | |
is a range of other offences that could also be added on and H think | :52:28. | :52:30. | |
people should be able to express those particular views. Mad`m Deputy | :52:31. | :52:37. | |
Speaker, in conclusion of mx remarks, because I did promhse to | :52:38. | :52:42. | |
you and the House that I did not intend to speak for a great length | :52:43. | :52:46. | |
of time. I think we all agrde with the sentiment behind the bill. And I | :52:47. | :52:54. | |
reiterate, should these offdnces referred to in the Bill ever have | :52:55. | :52:59. | |
been crimes, then obviously not Should we think anything less of the | :53:00. | :53:03. | |
people convicted of these crimes? No, we should not. But we c`nnot | :53:04. | :53:09. | |
just have laws in this housd passed on with the sentiment alone and we | :53:10. | :53:15. | |
cannot just have them past `s we have heard in every single speech I | :53:16. | :53:20. | |
think so far based on sending a signal, or sending some kind of | :53:21. | :53:25. | |
message. That is not the purpose... If we want to send a messagd and a | :53:26. | :53:30. | |
signal, that is done by makhng a speech. Passing legislation is a | :53:31. | :53:33. | |
very different things. The puestion is whether or not this is the right | :53:34. | :53:39. | |
kind of legislation to pass, where we go over these cases. What I want | :53:40. | :53:44. | |
the Minister to address espdcially in his speech is how easy it will be | :53:45. | :53:50. | |
to go through every single case in order to ascertain whether or not | :53:51. | :53:57. | |
what was actually committed at the time still constitutes an offence. | :53:58. | :54:01. | |
For example, there are cert`in things that constitute an offence | :54:02. | :54:05. | |
still today in terms of acthvities done in public. How will we know | :54:06. | :54:10. | |
looking back over the records whether or not the offence was in | :54:11. | :54:14. | |
public and therefore would still be an offence today? If it wasn't | :54:15. | :54:19. | |
relevant to the prosecution at the time, it may not have been locked. I | :54:20. | :54:23. | |
hope the Minister can explahn the difficulties of this becausd we | :54:24. | :54:26. | |
should not underestimate thd practical difficulties. When we | :54:27. | :54:30. | |
passed legislation, we pass practical things that have to | :54:31. | :54:34. | |
happen, not with his sentimdnts and I hope we will reflect on the | :54:35. | :54:38. | |
detail. If the builders go to committee, can I just say this to | :54:39. | :54:41. | |
the honourable gentleman for East Dunbartonshire? -- if the bhll does. | :54:42. | :54:46. | |
If it does go back to a report stage, I hope he will does dngage | :54:47. | :54:52. | |
genuinely with people who do not disagree with his sentiment, but do | :54:53. | :54:57. | |
have issues about the practhcal application of the legislathon. In | :54:58. | :55:00. | |
the detail, I can see he has tried to address some of those pohnts I | :55:01. | :55:05. | |
acknowledge that and I can see that. I hope he will accept, unlike some | :55:06. | :55:17. | |
of his sedentary, this commdntary, we appreciate the detail but it is | :55:18. | :55:20. | |
important the detail is right and we are doing this for the right reason | :55:21. | :55:24. | |
and not just to send a mess`ge and four gesture politics and to make us | :55:25. | :55:29. | |
look good and feel good. Th`t is not the purpose of legislation hn this | :55:30. | :55:33. | |
house, so I hope you will engage constructively with people who do | :55:34. | :55:37. | |
hold a different opinion, bdcause we all share the same sentiment. And | :55:38. | :55:43. | |
again, she is back in a place where I want to tell the honourable member | :55:44. | :55:47. | |
for Livingston that I thought her intervention in the debate was | :55:48. | :55:49. | |
absolutely fantastic and thd Minister I hope will address the | :55:50. | :55:53. | |
point that she raised in her intervention that actually, we can | :55:54. | :55:56. | |
maybe consider this bill in more detail if this goes through the | :55:57. | :56:01. | |
committee, rather than just accepting a Lords amendment which | :56:02. | :56:04. | |
gets virtually no scrutiny hn this house. | :56:05. | :56:10. | |
Thank you. I think it is fahr to say that we have has an extensive debate | :56:11. | :56:19. | |
this morning and we have he`rd many excellent features. My honotrable | :56:20. | :56:31. | |
friend the member for Shipldy picked out four. I agree with all those. I | :56:32. | :56:36. | |
particularly want to say how much I enjoyed the speech from the Right | :56:37. | :56:39. | |
Honourable member opposite from Rhondda. I thought it was both | :56:40. | :56:44. | |
entertaining, moving and very informative. I am sure the whole | :56:45. | :56:49. | |
house enjoyed it. Madam Deptty Speaker, let me start by genuinely | :56:50. | :56:54. | |
congratulating the honourable member for East Dunbartonshire on winning | :56:55. | :57:00. | |
the private members ballot process. Some members who have been hn the | :57:01. | :57:06. | |
house many more years than he has had entered for many years without | :57:07. | :57:11. | |
having the success that he has had. It was mention that without wanting | :57:12. | :57:16. | |
to sour that genuine note of congratulation that the Bill was | :57:17. | :57:22. | |
published very late in the day. I do hope that when the time comds that | :57:23. | :57:27. | |
the House does I accept, as I believe the Government have done, | :57:28. | :57:34. | |
the proposal recommended from the procedure committee... Yes, I will | :57:35. | :57:39. | |
certainly give way. I thank the honourable member for giving way so | :57:40. | :57:43. | |
early in his speech. A numbdr of questions have been asked in terms | :57:44. | :57:49. | |
of the blanket pardon, why doesn't the Government just go ahead and do | :57:50. | :57:53. | |
it? The reason for it, I wotld like to put this on record because I | :57:54. | :57:58. | |
understand... Is that the crime was gross indecency. There are lany | :57:59. | :58:03. | |
other crimes which are being committed at a much higher level. | :58:04. | :58:08. | |
You could be granting pardon to people who ostensibly were guilty of | :58:09. | :58:13. | |
gross indecency, some of those elements are still crimes to date, | :58:14. | :58:18. | |
that go far beyond the scopd of this bill. That is why the Government is | :58:19. | :58:23. | |
proposing a disregard process to go through followed by a statutory | :58:24. | :58:29. | |
pardon. I don't think that intervention | :58:30. | :58:33. | |
called for a response from le, the minister wanted to place th`t on | :58:34. | :58:38. | |
record and he has done so. Hf I can just finished the remark th`t I was | :58:39. | :58:42. | |
making and I do hope that when the time comes the House feels `ble to | :58:43. | :58:47. | |
support the recommendation of the procedure committee is, I understand | :58:48. | :58:50. | |
the Government has already `ccepted the recommendation and the deadline | :58:51. | :58:55. | |
for printing will be brought forward to the Wednesday of the week prior | :58:56. | :58:59. | |
to the day of the second re`ding. Madam Deputy Speaker, I think that | :59:00. | :59:06. | |
the irony of the fact that `s the member for Glasgow South relinded | :59:07. | :59:11. | |
us, the first-ever private lembers bill brought by a member of the | :59:12. | :59:15. | |
Scottish National Party onlx extends to England and Wales will not be | :59:16. | :59:22. | |
lost on anyone. I think it hs a smart move by the honourabld member | :59:23. | :59:25. | |
for East Dunbartonshire, because it sends the signal, and this bill has | :59:26. | :59:32. | |
been all about sending sign`ls, this bill sends the signal that | :59:33. | :59:35. | |
everything in East Dunbartonshire must be fantastic, there must be no | :59:36. | :59:40. | |
problems in East Dunbartonshire that require legislative solution and | :59:41. | :59:47. | |
thousands of people will be rushing to live in his constituency. So .. | :59:48. | :59:58. | |
Madam Deputy Speaker, it is worth considering that the situathon in | :59:59. | :00:03. | |
Scotland is very different from that in England and Wales, as we know. | :00:04. | :00:08. | |
The criminal law operates on a different basis. A lecturer in | :00:09. | :00:17. | |
economic and social history at the University of Glasgow published an | :00:18. | :00:23. | |
article on the 23rd of Febrtary last year on the website Queer Scotland, | :00:24. | :00:28. | |
a website specialising in articles on the hip... History and ctlture of | :00:29. | :00:35. | |
the Lesbian and gay community in Scotland, that article was titled | :00:36. | :00:42. | |
The 49,000: Pardons And Homosexual Offences, A Scottish Perspective. | :00:43. | :00:47. | |
The 49,000 figure that he rdfers to was an estimate of men prosdcuted | :00:48. | :00:52. | |
for gross indecency and othdr historic crimes. The professor | :00:53. | :00:57. | |
wrote, I quote, unlike what occurred in England, there were relatively | :00:58. | :01:02. | |
few successful prosecutions for private consensual sex betwden | :01:03. | :01:07. | |
adults males north of the border during the 20th century. Indeed it | :01:08. | :01:12. | |
was a policy of successive Lord Advocate in Scotland not to | :01:13. | :01:15. | |
prosecute private and sexual sex between men. -- private consensual | :01:16. | :01:23. | |
sex. Does this mean no one were prosecuted in Scotland on account of | :01:24. | :01:27. | |
being gay? As the professor points out, the main focus of the law was | :01:28. | :01:32. | |
upon men who engaged in sex in public 's pages, in cottages, | :01:33. | :01:36. | |
tenement closes, parks and len who sold sex on the streets of | :01:37. | :01:40. | |
Scotland's urban centres. This was not the result of liberal thinking | :01:41. | :01:45. | |
but chiefly the result of evidential requirements under Scots law. Order. | :01:46. | :01:53. | |
The question is that the qudstion been output. As many of our VAT | :01:54. | :02:01. | |
opinion say aye. Of the country no. Division, clear the lobby. ,- as | :02:02. | :02:09. | |
many as are of that opinion say aye. Of the contrary, no. Division, clear | :02:10. | :02:14. | |
the lobby. The question is that the qudstion | :02:15. | :03:09. | |
been output. As many of that opinion say aye. Of the country no. Tellers | :03:10. | :03:17. | |
for the ayes? Oh and Thomson and Mike Weir, tellers for the noes | :03:18. | :03:30. | |
Philip Davies and David Nuttall -- Owen Thompson and Mike Weir. | :03:31. | :10:06. | |
Order order. The ice to the right 57 and those to the left zero. The ayes | :10:07. | :12:56. | |
to the right 57, the noes to the left is zero. Fewer than 100 members | :12:57. | :13:01. | |
voted and the question has not been decided in the affirmative. Unlock! | :13:02. | :13:12. | |
David Nuttall. Thank you very much indeed, Madam Deputy Speaker. I am | :13:13. | :13:20. | |
grateful that the House has decided that it wishes to hear some more | :13:21. | :13:31. | |
from me this morning! And I will try and keep my remarks short | :13:32. | :13:37. | |
nevertheless. I cannot understand why the House wanted to try and end | :13:38. | :13:43. | |
my speech. I do have one or two specific things to say about the | :13:44. | :13:47. | |
bill before we hear from thd Minister, as I am sure the dntire | :13:48. | :13:54. | |
house wishes to do before vdry long. Like my honourable friend the member | :13:55. | :14:01. | |
for Shipley, I think my prilary concern about this bill is that it | :14:02. | :14:09. | |
attempts to rewrite history. And as we have heard a number of mdmbers | :14:10. | :14:15. | |
say, there have been many things which have happened in our history | :14:16. | :14:22. | |
about which we all wish had not happened, but we have to take | :14:23. | :14:27. | |
history as we find it. We h`ve two accent that the past was as it was | :14:28. | :14:32. | |
and is not how we perhaps would have it if we could rewrite that history | :14:33. | :14:40. | |
-- we have to accept. I also think that this bill is unnecessary in | :14:41. | :14:50. | |
many regards. Because I don't think we should assume that everybody who | :14:51. | :14:59. | |
is gay thinks that this bill is a good idea. Mention was made earlier | :15:00. | :15:14. | |
by the proposer of the bill, George Montagu, the gay rights campaigner | :15:15. | :15:21. | |
and author. He has said, I will not accept a pardon. To accept ` pardon | :15:22. | :15:30. | |
means to accept you were guhlty I was not guilty of anything. I was | :15:31. | :15:36. | |
only guilty of being in the wrong place, at the wrong time. Mx name | :15:37. | :15:41. | |
was on the queer list which the police had in those days and I will | :15:42. | :15:48. | |
not accept a pardon. I think it was wrong to give Alan Turing, one of | :15:49. | :15:54. | |
the heroes of my life, a pardon What was he guilty of? He w`s guilty | :15:55. | :16:00. | |
of the same they say I was guilty of. Being born only able to fall in | :16:01. | :16:10. | |
love with another man. Now, Mr Montague cannot be, I am sure, the | :16:11. | :16:17. | |
only gay man who takes this view. There must be others. And so are we | :16:18. | :16:26. | |
are going to force a pardon on someone who does not want to be | :16:27. | :16:34. | |
pardoned? There is also the crucial difference between a disreg`rd and a | :16:35. | :16:43. | |
pardon. The aim of a disreg`rd is to treat the individual concerned for | :16:44. | :16:50. | |
all purposes in law as if hd had not committed the offence or bedn | :16:51. | :17:00. | |
convicted of it. Of course, this raises the issue as to whether | :17:01. | :17:11. | |
someone who has applied for a disregard, and the latest | :17:12. | :17:16. | |
information has revealed in a response to a Parliamentary question | :17:17. | :17:23. | |
that between October 2012 and April 2016, a total of 242 individuals had | :17:24. | :17:32. | |
made disregard applications in respect of some 370 cases. Because | :17:33. | :17:40. | |
some individuals applied for a disregard in respect of mord than | :17:41. | :17:47. | |
one case. Of these 317, 83 were accepted for a disregard and 23 | :17:48. | :17:53. | |
rejected and one was still pending resolution when the responsd from | :17:54. | :18:01. | |
the government was given. Btt in view of the definition of what | :18:02. | :18:05. | |
happens when somebody successfully applies for a disregard, it does | :18:06. | :18:12. | |
raise the question as to whdther or not, if this bill becomes l`w, | :18:13. | :18:19. | |
whether or not the automatic pardon would apply to them. And those | :18:20. | :18:28. | |
proposing the bill may wish to give consideration of clarifying that | :18:29. | :18:31. | |
aspect. I hope I am not been difficult or awkward, I think this | :18:32. | :18:35. | |
is a genuine point that it light be worth clarifying on the facd of the | :18:36. | :18:41. | |
bill whether or not the pardon would apply to those who have alrdady been | :18:42. | :18:47. | |
accepted for a strategy disregard. And this Dame -- a statutorx | :18:48. | :18:54. | |
disregard, and the same applies to the proposal that the Minister wants | :18:55. | :18:58. | |
to bring forward in the othdr place. It was not clear when I read the | :18:59. | :19:06. | |
press release whether or not those who apply for a disregard whll be | :19:07. | :19:14. | |
granted an automatic pardon, or will they be given the option of ticking | :19:15. | :19:19. | |
a box on the application form to say yes, I also want a pardon? Because | :19:20. | :19:24. | |
there could be other people like Mr Montague who would say, I w`nt the | :19:25. | :19:28. | |
disregard, but I don't want the pardon because I do not accdpt that | :19:29. | :19:37. | |
I did anything wrong. There are many more things that could be s`id about | :19:38. | :19:42. | |
this, this morning, Madam Ddputy Speaker. But I said I would allow | :19:43. | :19:50. | |
time to hear from the front benches. And I intend to do that, Madam | :19:51. | :19:56. | |
Deputy Speaker. And I look forward to hearing what the Minister has to | :19:57. | :20:03. | |
say. Fabulous, thank you. I had written a | :20:04. | :20:12. | |
much longer and obviously vdry well crafted speech, with huge pdarls of | :20:13. | :20:16. | |
wisdom and eloquence, but as I really do want to give the Linister | :20:17. | :20:20. | |
and opportunity not only to be heard, but I hope to even at this | :20:21. | :20:28. | |
very late stage accept this bill or at the very least indicate that he | :20:29. | :20:34. | |
will go from this house tod`y and engaging genuine discussions about | :20:35. | :20:37. | |
amendment to the bill that will make it acceptable to the governlent I | :20:38. | :20:42. | |
am not going to speak for as long as I had intended. I will say `t the | :20:43. | :20:46. | |
outset that I am so many more people, not only in this hotse, but | :20:47. | :20:52. | |
elsewhere, will be disappointed that is too small a word, if the | :20:53. | :20:58. | |
government does not show itself to understand what is being spoken | :20:59. | :21:02. | |
about today and make a genuhne effort to meet those concerned. | :21:03. | :21:07. | |
Because roughly 75,000 men were prosecuted for gross indecency | :21:08. | :21:14. | |
between 1885, and the parti`l legislation for homosexuality, for | :21:15. | :21:21. | |
the legalisation of homosextality in 1967. Thousands more had to live | :21:22. | :21:25. | |
their lives in secrecy and fear to hide who they were for risk of | :21:26. | :21:31. | |
prosecution. It was just inhumane and unjust. The pain caused by these | :21:32. | :21:36. | |
indecent laws can never be tndone and the relationship and lives lost | :21:37. | :21:41. | |
can never be recovered. But this bill does do what we can do and that | :21:42. | :21:46. | |
is the partly correct a gre`t injustice. This bill grants a pardon | :21:47. | :21:52. | |
to those convicted of sexual offences, for acts that are no | :21:53. | :21:59. | |
longer criminalised. It is our way of recognising that we made a | :22:00. | :22:04. | |
mistake, that we have caused trauma amongst innocent people, th`t we | :22:05. | :22:10. | |
have ruined lives. It is our inadequate though it may be only way | :22:11. | :22:16. | |
of saying sorry. We have he`rd many moving tributes today, both to Alan | :22:17. | :22:23. | |
Turing and two others, about the laws that drove him and othdrs to | :22:24. | :22:30. | |
their death. And it is rightly a source of national sadness. But Alan | :22:31. | :22:35. | |
Turing was just one wronged gay man among thousands. The British state | :22:36. | :22:41. | |
owes an apology and a pardon to the ordinary men who worked crilinalised | :22:42. | :22:45. | |
of being who they were, just as much as it owed an apology to Al`n | :22:46. | :22:50. | |
Turing. After all, we apologised to Alan Turing not only becausd he is a | :22:51. | :22:54. | |
national hero, although he puite clearly is, because he patents we | :22:55. | :23:00. | |
did nothing wrong. To be fahr to the government, in the past, thdy have | :23:01. | :23:02. | |
recognised that these convictions were wrong. They grant and the | :23:03. | :23:07. | |
pardon the Turing and in 2002, they passed the protection of frdedoms | :23:08. | :23:11. | |
act which allows those with convictions under these inddcent | :23:12. | :23:14. | |
laws to apply for their conviction to be disregarded. And effectively | :23:15. | :23:19. | |
expunged from the record, so long as their application is approvdd. By | :23:20. | :23:24. | |
the Secretary of State. This disregard scheme was a welcome | :23:25. | :23:29. | |
development, as it allowed those prosecuted under these supplies laws | :23:30. | :23:32. | |
to apply for work without the blight of a criminal record but it simply | :23:33. | :23:37. | |
does not go far enough. The scheme replies upon the victim of `n | :23:38. | :23:45. | |
injustice making an application themselves. Relatives of thd | :23:46. | :23:50. | |
deceased cannot make applic`tions on the behalf of their family lembers | :23:51. | :23:55. | |
and now the can the deceased obviously apply for a disregard | :23:56. | :23:59. | |
themselves. It is therefore of no use to families of the 50,000 men | :24:00. | :24:06. | |
prosecuted of gross indecency who are now deceased and the Minister | :24:07. | :24:11. | |
must know that the pain of things like this exists within famhlies for | :24:12. | :24:18. | |
long after the events themsdlves and that sometimes, families nedd the | :24:19. | :24:25. | |
closure that this bill would allow. This disregard scheme also puts the | :24:26. | :24:29. | |
onus on those living to go out and apply for their conviction to be | :24:30. | :24:33. | |
disregarded and I want to stress that for many, going through the | :24:34. | :24:39. | |
disregard process opens up so many old wounds. And reminds thel of a | :24:40. | :24:45. | |
time in their life they may well wish to put behind them. I hmagine | :24:46. | :24:49. | |
that the rake up that old htrt and pain and humiliation and fe`r is not | :24:50. | :24:54. | |
something that they wish to do at this time in their lives. It must be | :24:55. | :24:59. | |
enormously stressful, I think the onus should be on the legislators to | :25:00. | :25:05. | |
take action, because it was the law that was wrong. The bill before us | :25:06. | :25:13. | |
deals with this problem. Cl`use two grants a pardon automatically to all | :25:14. | :25:17. | |
those convicted of a list of sexual offences that have since bedn | :25:18. | :25:22. | |
repealed. It is really important that the Minister grasps thhs. | :25:23. | :25:28. | |
Clause three will allow famhly members of the this -- dece`se to | :25:29. | :25:35. | |
apply for this regard. If the result is passed and everyone | :25:36. | :25:39. | |
convicted under these laws would be pardoned, whether living or | :25:40. | :25:42. | |
deceased, all could go throtgh the disregard process if a family member | :25:43. | :25:47. | |
wish to pursue it. On Wednesday the Government signed an amendmdnt to | :25:48. | :25:51. | |
the policing and crime Bill in the Lords which would achieve most but | :25:52. | :25:58. | |
not all of these things. Thd Lords amendment tabled by Lord Sh`rkey | :25:59. | :26:03. | |
would grant a pardon to all the decease to have been charged under | :26:04. | :26:08. | |
the relevant offences, but not, and this is crucial, to the livhng. The | :26:09. | :26:13. | |
living under this Government 's Mac amendment would have to apply for | :26:14. | :26:17. | |
this regard, and only then would they be granted a pardon. The onus | :26:18. | :26:22. | |
would be placed right back on the victims of injustice which, I worry, | :26:23. | :26:30. | |
rather reduces the quality of the apology being offered. | :26:31. | :26:33. | |
The minister explained the Government 's Mike approach to the | :26:34. | :26:37. | |
press, saying a blanket pardon without the detailed investhgations | :26:38. | :26:41. | |
carried out by the Home Offhce under the disregard process could see | :26:42. | :26:45. | |
people guilty of an offence which is still a crime today claiming to be | :26:46. | :26:49. | |
pardoned. This would cause `n extraordinary and unnecessary amount | :26:50. | :26:54. | |
of distress to victims. I know that all of us in thhs house | :26:55. | :27:00. | |
would not want to pardon anx guilty of serious sexual offences. However, | :27:01. | :27:05. | |
I must say I am a little confused by the Government's reasoning. The way | :27:06. | :27:09. | |
that the private members bill is currently drafted relies upon a list | :27:10. | :27:13. | |
of sexual offences for which someone is granted a pardon. All of them are | :27:14. | :27:21. | |
no longer crimes. It also contains a separate clause clearly stating I | :27:22. | :27:26. | |
quote again, nothing in this act is to be interpreted as pardonhng, | :27:27. | :27:33. | |
disregarding or in any other way affecting portions, convicthons | :27:34. | :27:38. | |
sentences or any other consdquences or convictions or cautions or | :27:39. | :27:42. | |
conduct or behaviour that is unlawful on the date that the act | :27:43. | :27:46. | |
comes into force. It is therefore not clear to me how, | :27:47. | :27:51. | |
given these safeguards, the bill would lead to those guilty of an | :27:52. | :27:56. | |
offence which is still a crhme today being pardoned. | :27:57. | :27:59. | |
Unless the minister merely leans to say that people would be able to | :28:00. | :28:03. | |
falsely and deceptively clahmed to have been pardons when they are in | :28:04. | :28:10. | |
fact, not pardoned. Yeah. Thank you for giving way up points. | :28:11. | :28:15. | |
The thing that is not clear about what she was saying to me, | :28:16. | :28:20. | |
personally, is it simply has been convicted of having underagd sex, | :28:21. | :28:27. | |
for example, how from a previous conviction today can we detdrmine | :28:28. | :28:32. | |
whether that is still a crile? Anybody that is having sex with a | :28:33. | :28:35. | |
minor today is still a crimd, however that would not be clear from | :28:36. | :28:41. | |
past criminal activity. The bill is really clear th`t if an | :28:42. | :28:46. | |
offence is still an offence today there will be no pardon. Having sex | :28:47. | :28:51. | |
with someone who was underage is still an offence. So that mdans | :28:52. | :28:58. | |
quite clearly, quite clearlx, that anybody who has committed an offence | :28:59. | :29:02. | |
that is still an offence today would not be pardoned. But I would say to | :29:03. | :29:06. | |
the honourable gentlemen, and not take again because I am comhng to a | :29:07. | :29:10. | |
conclusion, I genuinely think we should hear from the ministdr, but I | :29:11. | :29:15. | |
would say to the honourable gentleman that it is not sufficient | :29:16. | :29:20. | |
to warrant a rejection of the bill. I really do think that what we | :29:21. | :29:25. | |
should be doing is taking this bill through committee. If there are | :29:26. | :29:29. | |
genuine problems with the wording of the bill is can be amended. If what | :29:30. | :29:34. | |
the honourable gentleman is raising as an issue remains an issud, it can | :29:35. | :29:39. | |
be amended. That is what thd committee and report stages for and | :29:40. | :29:43. | |
that is what we do hear all the time. If this bill is imperfect | :29:44. | :29:48. | |
let's perfect it. Let's do ht in committee. That is where we do | :29:49. | :29:53. | |
things like this. I can't sde why this bill is any different. We don't | :29:54. | :30:01. | |
any of us disagree with the principles in this bill. Thd | :30:02. | :30:03. | |
Minister is worried about unintended consequences, it can be dealt with. | :30:04. | :30:06. | |
Let's take a two committee, change the bill in committee and m`ke it | :30:07. | :30:10. | |
fit for purpose. I urge the Minister even at this very last moment to | :30:11. | :30:14. | |
accept the provisions of thhs bill, allow it into committee where we can | :30:15. | :30:18. | |
change it, if necessary, and bring it back for this house to p`ss. | :30:19. | :30:25. | |
Thank you, Madam Deputy Spe`ker And thanks to the honourable melber for | :30:26. | :30:33. | |
East Dunbartonshire for bringing this important issue to the House. I | :30:34. | :30:39. | |
would also like to thank Stonewall, who have campaigned vigorously and a | :30:40. | :30:43. | |
number of other campaign groups on LGBT issues over the years, to whom | :30:44. | :30:49. | |
we owe a lot of credit for the progress that has been made in this | :30:50. | :30:55. | |
area. Madam Deputy Speaker, there have been some fantastic spdeches | :30:56. | :31:01. | |
today and I will not go through them all, but I would like to single out | :31:02. | :31:07. | |
the speech by the member for Selby and Ainstree. As he said, it is not | :31:08. | :31:12. | |
usual the Yorkshireman to admit they have made mistakes, but it hs even | :31:13. | :31:16. | |
less usual for politicians to admit that they have made mistakes. He | :31:17. | :31:23. | |
very graciously came out of the closet in favour of same-sex | :31:24. | :31:27. | |
marriage in his speech. I will take the intervention. Thank | :31:28. | :31:32. | |
you very much. In saying those words, does he not recognisd that it | :31:33. | :31:36. | |
might well be the case in ydars to come that he reflects on thd words | :31:37. | :31:40. | |
he is saying and about to s`y and think that, perhaps, he is `bout to | :31:41. | :31:44. | |
get it wrong? I have done a number of these | :31:45. | :31:48. | |
private members bills on Frhdays, and it is very unusual to bd doing a | :31:49. | :31:52. | |
private members bill where the choice before the House is not the | :31:53. | :31:57. | |
private members bill or nobhlity all, the choice before the house is | :31:58. | :32:00. | |
this private members bill and a legislative vehicle, the police and | :32:01. | :32:05. | |
crime commissioning bill, which will help us achieve our aim is luch | :32:06. | :32:09. | |
faster and so we can deliver justice. There is also an ilportant | :32:10. | :32:15. | |
point, it is not for anything that they say you campaign in podtry but | :32:16. | :32:20. | |
Govan in prose. Intentions `re not good enough when it comes to making | :32:21. | :32:25. | |
law. We have to think through the unintended consequences of law, that | :32:26. | :32:28. | |
is what the Government approach tries to deal with. | :32:29. | :32:33. | |
I am grateful, perhaps he would also like to make the point that if 00 | :32:34. | :32:39. | |
MPs out of 650 had turned up to support the bill today, then it | :32:40. | :32:43. | |
would have got its second rdading without any trouble at all. And that | :32:44. | :32:47. | |
the problem is, it seems to me, the bill has not got the support of 100 | :32:48. | :32:51. | |
MPs. We did not have 100 MPs going | :32:52. | :32:57. | |
through the division lobby darlier. We have either substantial debate in | :32:58. | :33:01. | |
which people in favour of the private members bill have spoken for | :33:02. | :33:04. | |
well over three hours. I wotld like to take the intervention. I am | :33:05. | :33:09. | |
grateful. Because we have h`d so many contributions, time is short, | :33:10. | :33:12. | |
last time I was here for a private members bill with a minister he I'm | :33:13. | :33:17. | |
sure, entirely inadvertentlx, talked it out. He still has over 20 minutes | :33:18. | :33:23. | |
to address the issues of thd bill. Can he commit to concluding his | :33:24. | :33:28. | |
remarks so we can have a bo`t on the second reading, otherwise it will be | :33:29. | :33:31. | |
his friends that are blamed the talking it out, the Minister's words | :33:32. | :33:35. | |
would ring hollow if he is the one that talks out the bill. I can | :33:36. | :33:39. | |
commit is setting up the Government case very clearly and come | :33:40. | :33:44. | |
principally. As I had said, the choice is not this bill or no | :33:45. | :33:50. | |
action, the choice is betwedn.. Madam Deputy Speaker, I was proud to | :33:51. | :33:53. | |
announce yesterday the introduction of legislation to posthumous the | :33:54. | :33:59. | |
pardoned thousands of gay and bisexual men convicted of now | :34:00. | :34:03. | |
abolished sexual offences. Not enough has been said of what was a | :34:04. | :34:07. | |
big and momentous step by the Government yesterday. Many of the | :34:08. | :34:12. | |
contributions today have lost over that fact and tried to presdnt this | :34:13. | :34:17. | |
debate as one which the Govdrnment is taken no action at all. This has | :34:18. | :34:23. | |
been a big challenge for 50 years. Homosexuality was decriminalised in | :34:24. | :34:27. | |
1967, this is one of the biggest steps taken since then and ht is | :34:28. | :34:33. | |
being taken by this Governmdnt. The issue was brought home to md, Madam | :34:34. | :34:36. | |
Deputy Speaker, when my offhce received a phone call from ` lady 's | :34:37. | :34:44. | |
stepbrother was convicted under these archaic anti-gay laws. And she | :34:45. | :34:51. | |
was so delighted that her mother, their shared mother who is close to | :34:52. | :34:56. | |
100 years, has lived to see her stepbrother pardons. That is a | :34:57. | :35:01. | |
momentous step. For those that are making out, tweeting other lembers, | :35:02. | :35:05. | |
that's how the Government is not being progressive in this area, the | :35:06. | :35:09. | |
truth is that the Government is not dragging its feet or being hesitant, | :35:10. | :35:12. | |
the legislative vehicle of the Government will deliver what we all | :35:13. | :35:18. | |
want, to write this historical wrong quicker than any other method. By | :35:19. | :35:23. | |
using a Government vehicle we protect these measures from | :35:24. | :35:29. | |
filibuster and we protected from the vagaries of Parliamentary thme and | :35:30. | :35:35. | |
ensure that the measures get on the statute book. In 2012, we | :35:36. | :35:40. | |
introduced... If you want md to finish you might as well allow me to | :35:41. | :35:44. | |
get through the speech. In 2012 we introduce changes to the | :35:45. | :35:49. | |
law to clear anyone still lhving, and previously convicted of these | :35:50. | :35:53. | |
now abolished offences under the Home Office process. Disreg`rding is | :35:54. | :36:00. | |
a powerful tool in changing lives, as it removes any mention of a | :36:01. | :36:05. | |
criminal offence. However, our announcement will go one stdp | :36:06. | :36:09. | |
further and we will introduce a new statutory pardon for those who have | :36:10. | :36:15. | |
successfully had offences ddleted through the disregard process. I | :36:16. | :36:19. | |
thank him for giving way. When you talk that the number of convictions | :36:20. | :36:23. | |
compared with the number of people who have taken up the offer of this | :36:24. | :36:29. | |
regard, it is very low. Does the Government penny plans to ptblicise | :36:30. | :36:33. | |
the disregard programme so that more people could take that option? | :36:34. | :36:40. | |
The honourable member makes a very powerful point, in the Government | :36:41. | :36:45. | |
scheme the living do not get a blanket pardon but apply for a | :36:46. | :36:50. | |
disregard process. The offer that I made to the member for East | :36:51. | :36:54. | |
Dunbartonshire was to work together with him, MoD officials and the Home | :36:55. | :36:58. | |
Office to make sure that thd disregard process is as effdctive as | :36:59. | :37:04. | |
it could be. But in thinking about this we need not only to thhnk about | :37:05. | :37:08. | |
those who were unjustly convicted of a crime, but we need to think about | :37:09. | :37:15. | |
potential victims. And by not having a disregard process and offdring a | :37:16. | :37:19. | |
blanket pardon, it means we do not take into account the needs of | :37:20. | :37:24. | |
potential victims. I will t`ke that intervention. I don't quite | :37:25. | :37:29. | |
understand his point. It is quite possible that somebody now deceased | :37:30. | :37:33. | |
could get an automatic pardon is in exactly the same position as | :37:34. | :37:37. | |
somebody who is still alive, and there could be a potential victim | :37:38. | :37:43. | |
there, so why is he making this strange difference between the two? | :37:44. | :37:52. | |
It is a very important point. One of the answers is very similar. For | :37:53. | :37:55. | |
somebody who is living and receives the blanket pardon, they cotld | :37:56. | :38:02. | |
volunteer in a school, wherd actually they have committed | :38:03. | :38:06. | |
something that is still an offence, for example sex with a minor. There | :38:07. | :38:11. | |
is a bigger onus on it to gdt this right. Can I develop my argtment? | :38:12. | :38:20. | |
Order. I just want to remind the minister there when he says you he | :38:21. | :38:25. | |
is referring to the chair. H know in these heated debates can get quite | :38:26. | :38:29. | |
direct, so especially when ht gets a bit heated, it is important to | :38:30. | :38:37. | |
remember that rule. Very good advice, I would not want | :38:38. | :38:43. | |
to drag you into this debatd. The Government will pardon thosd who | :38:44. | :38:46. | |
tragically died before they ever saw this injustice tackled. I would say | :38:47. | :38:51. | |
in response to the member for Rhondda who made a very passionate | :38:52. | :38:58. | |
speech, it is a matter of ddep regret that so many men went to | :38:59. | :39:02. | |
their graves without the pardon that they rightly deserve. Which is why | :39:03. | :39:08. | |
we are determined as a Government to deliver justice, as I have said by | :39:09. | :39:13. | |
the most swift and fair means possible. We support the amdndment | :39:14. | :39:22. | |
to the protection of freedol sacked 2012 to the policing and crhme Bill. | :39:23. | :39:27. | |
Lord Sharkey is a Liberal Ddmocrat peer, no stooge of the Government. | :39:28. | :39:33. | |
The days of coalition are long over. He has been campaigning likd many of | :39:34. | :39:37. | |
the members here, including the member for East Dunbartonshhre, for | :39:38. | :39:41. | |
this very measure for very long time. I am pleased that he will be | :39:42. | :39:46. | |
taking forward the Government smack measures on this. I am also pleased | :39:47. | :39:51. | |
the measures have been welcomed widely. Nick Duffy, the editor of | :39:52. | :39:57. | |
Pink News, said the result discussion around semantics, but the | :39:58. | :40:01. | |
bigger issue, I think, is that men who are alive today now havd the | :40:02. | :40:04. | |
option to finally have it on paper that they don't do anything wrong, | :40:05. | :40:09. | |
that these laws were a mist`ke and never should have been. It sends a | :40:10. | :40:13. | |
message within our country, can I finish, that these laws werd totally | :40:14. | :40:18. | |
wrong, that we regret them `nd that they should never have been on the | :40:19. | :40:26. | |
books. David Isaac, the Equ`lity Commission chair, has said that this | :40:27. | :40:31. | |
is an important date for all those who have had criminal convictions | :40:32. | :40:35. | |
through old unjust laws. Many people have campaigned for gay men to be | :40:36. | :40:39. | |
pardoned after being prosectted for being who they are, I applatd the | :40:40. | :40:44. | |
Government fulfilling their commitment. Madam Deputy Spdaker, | :40:45. | :40:48. | |
these are quotes from peopld who are independent and have campaigned for | :40:49. | :40:52. | |
these measures for a long thme, and they recognise that the steps the | :40:53. | :40:55. | |
Government is taking will ddliver justice in a fast and fair way. | :40:56. | :41:02. | |
Earlier on, he said his objdction to this bill was that it gave out a | :41:03. | :41:10. | |
blanket pardon which might cover unlawful conduct. Can give the | :41:11. | :41:13. | |
Minister comfort and tell hhm that is not the case. If you looks to | :41:14. | :41:20. | |
clause one, it says, nothing in this act is to be interpreted as | :41:21. | :41:24. | |
pardoning, disregarding or hn any other way affecting cautions all | :41:25. | :41:28. | |
sentences or other consequences for conduct or behaviour that is | :41:29. | :41:33. | |
unlawful on the date that the act comes into force. How could it be | :41:34. | :41:38. | |
clearer? And if you looks at clause two, the conditions for a p`rdon are | :41:39. | :41:43. | |
that the other person must have consented and must not have been | :41:44. | :41:49. | |
under the age of 16. Those `nswer the issues that he is, the concerns | :41:50. | :41:55. | |
he is at issue. Will he havd the decency to admit that the government | :41:56. | :41:59. | |
is wrong about this and the bill does tackle the issues he is | :42:00. | :42:04. | |
bringing up? The truth is, the offence w`s gross | :42:05. | :42:13. | |
indecency. Gross indecency covered a whole range of criminal offdnces. So | :42:14. | :42:20. | |
your blanket pardon, unless you are going to cover everyone who was | :42:21. | :42:25. | |
convicted of gross indecencx, so you go into that and differenti`te | :42:26. | :42:31. | |
between those who this bill covers? Can I develop my argument? @nd those | :42:32. | :42:35. | |
who fall outside the scope of this bill. I would like to take on a | :42:36. | :42:39. | |
point that the member for Ilford North mentioned. He was delhghted to | :42:40. | :42:49. | |
be debating this issue with a Conservative government on the how | :42:50. | :42:55. | |
and not the what. Now, can H say to him that the Conservative P`rty has | :42:56. | :42:59. | |
a proud record of trying to redress the inequality that gay, lesbian and | :43:00. | :43:08. | |
transgender people face and it was Chris Grayling who paved thd way | :43:09. | :43:13. | |
with a protections of freedoms act 2012, and a Conservative led | :43:14. | :43:17. | |
government that is delivered the same-sex marriage and same-sex | :43:18. | :43:20. | |
couples act which passed in July 20 13. Couples have been able to marry | :43:21. | :43:25. | |
regardless of sex and gender. And I know when I was going through that | :43:26. | :43:29. | |
debate and I voted for same,sex marriage, I realised when pdople | :43:30. | :43:33. | |
contacted me and said they `re the same, let's treat them diffdrently | :43:34. | :43:38. | |
when it comes to marriage. @s an ethnic minority myself, I knew you | :43:39. | :43:42. | |
could not say they were equ`l and treat them separately, which is why | :43:43. | :43:46. | |
I was delighted to vote for that piece of legislation. And also, the | :43:47. | :43:55. | |
Conservative Party has a proud record of more out MPs than all | :43:56. | :43:57. | |
other parties put together, I understand. But we know that there | :43:58. | :44:02. | |
is more to do. I reject that somehow in supporting this amendment by Lord | :44:03. | :44:05. | |
Sharkey, we shirking the huge amount that is to do in this area. We are | :44:06. | :44:10. | |
delivering on this manifesto commitment by backing that `mendment | :44:11. | :44:16. | |
to correct this historic injustice against gay and bisexual men. Many | :44:17. | :44:22. | |
people have said in this debate that we need to send out a signal. Well, | :44:23. | :44:28. | |
when I looked at the newspapers yesterday, the signal was sdnt by | :44:29. | :44:33. | |
the government supporting that amendment. And I am sure thd | :44:34. | :44:36. | |
reverberations will continud for months to come that the govdrnment | :44:37. | :44:40. | |
has not only delivered on its commitment, but also gone as | :44:41. | :44:45. | |
possible to write this historic injustice. I was delighted when | :44:46. | :44:51. | |
Jeremy Corbyn also said that this is a great victory for all those who | :44:52. | :44:55. | |
have campaigned to correct this wrong. So I know that but the SNP | :44:56. | :45:03. | |
answering the call of Better Together is not something that comes | :45:04. | :45:07. | |
naturally. But as I say, wh`t I hoped was that they would whthdraw | :45:08. | :45:13. | |
this bill and support our alendment. We all want the same thing, to | :45:14. | :45:17. | |
resolve an injustice that for too long has been left unchallenged And | :45:18. | :45:28. | |
of course, when the amendment comes into this House, the SNP will be | :45:29. | :45:34. | |
able to contribute it and the debate on that particular amendment. But, | :45:35. | :45:40. | |
Madam Deputy Speaker, we ard all here in part because of the | :45:41. | :45:47. | |
world-famous story of the w`rtime hero and Enigma code breaker Alan | :45:48. | :45:52. | |
Turing. That resulted in thd Conservative manifesto to introduce | :45:53. | :45:54. | |
legislation to correct thesd historic wrongs. Turing convicted | :45:55. | :46:00. | |
suicide following his conviction for gross indecency and he was | :46:01. | :46:04. | |
posthumous sleep pardoned bx Her Majesty the Queen in 2013. The | :46:05. | :46:10. | |
posthumous pardon of Alan Ttring addresses his 1952 conviction for | :46:11. | :46:15. | |
gross indecency which resulted in him being chemically castrated. | :46:16. | :46:18. | |
Turing was arrested following an affair with a 19-year-old from | :46:19. | :46:24. | |
Manchester. The conviction, an indictment of the attitudes | :46:25. | :46:27. | |
prevailing at the time, restlted in him losing his security cle`rance so | :46:28. | :46:32. | |
that he was no longer able to continue the valuable code breaking | :46:33. | :46:35. | |
work that was vital to the @llies in World War II during the war, at | :46:36. | :46:42. | |
Bletchley Park. His pardon was granted under the Royal prerogative | :46:43. | :46:46. | |
of messy at the request by the then Conservative Justice Secret`ry Chris | :46:47. | :46:49. | |
Grayling, following a high-profile campaign supported by over 37,0 0 | :46:50. | :46:54. | |
people including Stephen Hawking. We know, as has been sedge durhng this | :46:55. | :46:59. | |
debate, that Alan Turing's story is just one of the estimated 48,00 | :47:00. | :47:03. | |
people into sleep convicted under laws. This is of course a m`tter of | :47:04. | :47:10. | |
the deepest regret. These wdre criminal offences, as the l`w said | :47:11. | :47:14. | |
at the time, but I am delighted we will be delivering on our m`nifesto | :47:15. | :47:19. | |
commitment to pardon these len and put these wrongs. The legislation | :47:20. | :47:23. | |
this Government announced whll do two things. Address the historic | :47:24. | :47:27. | |
injustices faced by gay and bisexual men. In the case of deceased | :47:28. | :47:32. | |
persons, it will provide for a blanket posthumous pardon to be | :47:33. | :47:37. | |
given to those individuals who were convicted of consensual gay sexual | :47:38. | :47:41. | |
offences which would not be offences today. Primarily, offences tnder the | :47:42. | :47:51. | |
Sexual Offences Act 1956. As Lord Sharkey said yesterday, a p`rdon is | :47:52. | :47:54. | |
probably the best way to acknowledge the real harm done by the unjust and | :47:55. | :47:59. | |
cruel homophobic laws which thankfully we have now repe`led In | :48:00. | :48:05. | |
the case of those individuals still living, it will provide that all | :48:06. | :48:08. | |
individuals who are successful in obtaining a disregard which I will | :48:09. | :48:14. | |
explain in more detail in a moment, to be granted a pardon. So they will | :48:15. | :48:18. | |
get both a disregard to exptnge their record and a pardon. This will | :48:19. | :48:24. | |
apply to those disregards previously or in the future. Under the | :48:25. | :48:28. | |
protection of freedoms act 2012 individuals can apply to thd Home | :48:29. | :48:32. | |
Secretary to have their historic convictions for gay sex offdnces | :48:33. | :48:36. | |
primarily sections 12 and 13 of Sexual Offences Act 1956, ddleted. | :48:37. | :48:43. | |
Officials check police National computer records and local court | :48:44. | :48:47. | |
records, to ascertain whethdr the offences were consensual, where the | :48:48. | :48:54. | |
person aged 16 or over was hnvolved, and did not involve activitx that is | :48:55. | :48:58. | |
currently an offence. A successful applicant will be treated in all | :48:59. | :49:02. | |
circumstances as both the offence had never occurred and need not to | :49:03. | :49:07. | |
disclose it for any purpose. Official records related to the | :49:08. | :49:11. | |
conviction held by organisations will be deleted or, where | :49:12. | :49:17. | |
appropriate, removed this effect. The existence of those awkw`rd | :49:18. | :49:23. | |
Russians may have prevented them taking up certain opportunities and | :49:24. | :49:28. | |
made them uneasy going into certain professions or volunteering, or | :49:29. | :49:30. | |
because that information wotld have been revealed in a criminal records | :49:31. | :49:39. | |
check. While it is right th`t the state enables the vulnerabld to be | :49:40. | :49:43. | |
protected from those who pose a risk, it is not right that someone | :49:44. | :49:48. | |
remains affected by a conviction for something that is no longer illegal. | :49:49. | :49:53. | |
The process for the disregards, which has been discussed in not | :49:54. | :50:00. | |
enough detail in this debatd, it is simple and not bureaucratic. | :50:01. | :50:04. | |
Applicants complete a two p`ge form with basic information such as name | :50:05. | :50:08. | |
and address of the applicant and the details of the offence to bd | :50:09. | :50:12. | |
disregarded. The applicant `lso supplies photocopies of proof of | :50:13. | :50:18. | |
address and identity. These can be sent by post or e-mail. Nothing else | :50:19. | :50:22. | |
is required in the process which is free of charge. The outcome of a | :50:23. | :50:28. | |
disregards is a significant step for the individual. They may have had to | :50:29. | :50:33. | |
live with that offence on their record for years. I want to press | :50:34. | :50:38. | |
on. When a person is successful in obtaining a disregards for ` | :50:39. | :50:41. | |
conviction or a caution, th`t offence is to be treated for all | :50:42. | :50:47. | |
purposes in law as of the pdrson has not committed the offence bding | :50:48. | :50:53. | |
convicted or sentenced or c`utioned. Perhaps this will be of most use to | :50:54. | :50:57. | |
individuals when applying for work or to volunteer in roles repuiring a | :50:58. | :51:01. | |
criminal records check, frol the disclosure service. This is | :51:02. | :51:09. | |
incredibly important becausd what the disregards process does is quite | :51:10. | :51:14. | |
simply the offences will no longer appear on the disclosure and can | :51:15. | :51:18. | |
have no affect on the person's chances of obtaining work or the | :51:19. | :51:22. | |
opportunity to volunteer. Any previous barriers would havd been | :51:23. | :51:27. | |
removed and the person is no longer affected by the disclosure. | :51:28. | :51:34. | |
Just to clarify a point that when the age of consent is higher than | :51:35. | :51:39. | |
today in 1967, how does the Minister envisaged checks and balancds being | :51:40. | :51:44. | |
put in place on a blanket... Were under age sex has taken place under | :51:45. | :51:48. | |
the age of 16, which is illdgal today, but the same charge when the | :51:49. | :51:55. | |
age of consent was 21? My honourable friend continues to make a very | :51:56. | :52:00. | |
persuasive case here, which is yes, we all want a pardon, we all want to | :52:01. | :52:06. | |
correct the rungs of the past, but we cannot do that without h`ving | :52:07. | :52:12. | |
inappropriate safeguards were people still live and there are sthll | :52:13. | :52:16. | |
consequences today -- the Bronx To do that would be irresponsible on | :52:17. | :52:19. | |
the part of the government, they will take that intervention. In my | :52:20. | :52:26. | |
early intervention, he said his concern was that somebody who got a | :52:27. | :52:30. | |
blanket pardon he was still alive could get a job as a voluntder or | :52:31. | :52:36. | |
something like that with chhldren. The bill specifically says that | :52:37. | :52:42. | |
anybody who is still alive `nd wants to have the offence expunge from | :52:43. | :52:45. | |
their record has to go throtgh a second procedure. Surely anxbody | :52:46. | :52:49. | |
applying would have to go through a criminal records check for such a | :52:50. | :52:54. | |
job that shows that up still on the record, so I do not see where the | :52:55. | :52:58. | |
difference lies. The honourable member has m`de for | :52:59. | :53:03. | |
me the point why a disregard step is essential in this process. Can I | :53:04. | :53:09. | |
respond to the point the honourable gentleman made? I hope, the | :53:10. | :53:16. | |
disregard process means you do not have a distro -- a process where | :53:17. | :53:21. | |
somebody has been pardoned but actually on their criminal record, | :53:22. | :53:27. | |
the record has not been exptnged. What the disregard process does it | :53:28. | :53:33. | |
makes, it ensures that the criminal record is expunged and they get a | :53:34. | :53:38. | |
statutory pardon. So I am stre members will agree with me that this | :53:39. | :53:43. | |
disregard process provides ` meaningful avenue for indivhduals | :53:44. | :53:47. | |
convicted or cautioned for sexual activity which would no longer be | :53:48. | :53:51. | |
regarded as an offence. You have had your time. The move on with their | :53:52. | :53:55. | |
lives in a meaningful way. @ disregard is a much more powerful | :53:56. | :53:59. | |
and useful remedy for someone living, rather than just a pardon. | :54:00. | :54:05. | |
We do recognise that the force of the symbol of been pardoned is | :54:06. | :54:09. | |
strong, so we propose to pardon all of those living who were convicted | :54:10. | :54:14. | |
of relevant offences once they have received a disregard. I would | :54:15. | :54:19. | |
absolutely urge any individtals who believe they are eligible for the | :54:20. | :54:22. | |
disregard process, to apply through the Home Office to have thehr | :54:23. | :54:27. | |
records correctly assessed, and I hope today's debate helped raise the | :54:28. | :54:32. | |
profile of this process so that those who were not aware can take | :54:33. | :54:37. | |
steps to secure the justice they deserve. Of course, I support the | :54:38. | :54:42. | |
intentions behind my honour`ble friend's bill. We share the same | :54:43. | :54:48. | |
objectives. The proposed bl`nket pardon would not provide for robust | :54:49. | :54:51. | |
checks to ensure that only those who clearly meets the criteria can claim | :54:52. | :54:57. | |
to have been pardoned. It would lead in some cases the people cl`iming to | :54:58. | :55:02. | |
be cleared of offences that are still crimes including sex with a | :55:03. | :55:09. | |
minor and other activity. Under the disregard process, the Home Office | :55:10. | :55:13. | |
has rejected several applic`tions where the activity was nonconsensual | :55:14. | :55:19. | |
and others were the other p`rty was under 16 years old. These offences | :55:20. | :55:25. | |
were captured under offences such as gross indecency at the time but they | :55:26. | :55:29. | |
are still crimes today. It hs important that a pardon for the | :55:30. | :55:33. | |
living takes place only aftdr due process has taken place. | :55:34. | :55:40. | |
Order, order! You know. Let the Minister finish his speech. Order. | :55:41. | :55:50. | |
Order. Debate to resume what day? Debate to be resumes what d`y? The | :55:51. | :55:56. | |
member of the East Dunbartonshire is the member in charge, I belheve I | :55:57. | :56:03. | |
suspect there is little point, Madam Deputy Speaker, but I am told to | :56:04. | :56:07. | |
continue with this farce. The 1 th of December is what I meant to say. | :56:08. | :56:14. | |
The 16th of December. Registration of marriage Bill second reading .. | :56:15. | :56:21. | |
IBEC to leave, Madam Deputy Speaker. Objection taken. On which d`y? | :56:22. | :56:28. | |
Friday the 18th of November. Friday the 18th of November. The qtestion | :56:29. | :56:36. | |
is that this House do now adjourn? Philip Hollobone? I rise on behalf | :56:37. | :56:40. | |
of my constituents in Kettering to draw to the Minister's attention | :56:41. | :56:45. | |
Kettering General Hospital, the good work it does for the local community | :56:46. | :56:50. | |
and the challenges it faces over the years ahead. Could I thank Lr | :56:51. | :56:54. | |
Speaker for granting me perlission to have this debate today, `nd could | :56:55. | :56:59. | |
I welcome my honourable fridnd the member for Ludlow, the Minister for | :57:00. | :57:05. | |
health in his place, to listen to my remarks. It is a huge privilege for | :57:06. | :57:09. | |
me to be the member of Parlhament for Kettering, I regard Kettering | :57:10. | :57:13. | |
General Hospital as one of the pre-eminent issues for all local | :57:14. | :57:18. | |
residents in Kettering, and had no hesitation in trying to use every | :57:19. | :57:22. | |
parliamentary opportunity I can to draw the hospital's challenges to | :57:23. | :57:26. | |
the attention of Her Majestx's Government. There are five lain | :57:27. | :57:31. | |
themes I want to address today. The first is the huge demographhc | :57:32. | :57:35. | |
challenge Kettering and its hospital faces. Second, the ambitious plans | :57:36. | :57:42. | |
for an urgent care hope which, frankly, require Government support. | :57:43. | :57:46. | |
The challenge of funding estate development on the hospital site, | :57:47. | :57:50. | |
the problems caused by national IT roll-outs and the workforce | :57:51. | :57:56. | |
challenges faced by the hospital. Madam Deputy Speaker, peopld in | :57:57. | :58:00. | |
Kettering are very proud of our local hospital, which has bden on | :58:01. | :58:07. | |
its present site for 119 ye`rs. Local people have been born there, | :58:08. | :58:13. | |
repair that, died there. Evdryone is hugely proud of the doctors, nurses | :58:14. | :58:20. | |
ancillary staff who do a fantastic job day in, day out, week in, week | :58:21. | :58:28. | |
out, around the clock, to providing cruising the first-class he`lth care | :58:29. | :58:34. | |
to our local community. But the size of the local community is growing at | :58:35. | :58:39. | |
an unprecedented rate. Kettdring over the last census period was | :58:40. | :58:43. | |
sixth out of 348 local districts for household growth, 31st out of 3 8 | :58:44. | :58:52. | |
districts for population growth The local population is growing | :58:53. | :58:57. | |
something like 1% a year, btt within that the number of elderly people is | :58:58. | :59:01. | |
growing even faster. Thank goodness we all living longer, but the number | :59:02. | :59:10. | |
of people aged over 75 is lhkely to rise in the county of | :59:11. | :59:16. | |
Northamptonshire from just shy of 54 in 2017 to just short of 72,000 in | :59:17. | :59:27. | |
2023. -- from just shy of 54000 and 2017. This represents the bhggest | :59:28. | :59:32. | |
challenge for the hospital. The good news is that the hospital is raising | :59:33. | :59:36. | |
its game and is responding. The number of beds in the hospital was | :59:37. | :59:45. | |
518 in 2010, it is now 561. That is an increase of 8%. It is set to | :59:46. | :59:51. | |
increase to 600 over the next year or so. But the number of trdatments | :59:52. | :59:55. | |
being provided is going up `ll the time. In 2004/5 there were 71,3 0 at | :59:56. | :00:07. | |
omitted patient consultant dpisodes that the hospital, rising to just | :00:08. | :00:14. | |
short of 91,020 14/15, an increase of 27%. The number of outpatient | :00:15. | :00:25. | |
attendances rose from 160,402 in 2004/5 to 274,614 in 2014/14, an | :00:26. | :00:35. | |
increase of 63%. The accident and emergency figures, 67500 and | :00:36. | :00:41. | |
2010/11, now it is 83,000, `n increase of 23%, this is poor and | :00:42. | :00:46. | |
A department built 20 years ago designed to treat just 40,000 | :00:47. | :00:50. | |
people. The pressures on thd hospital are unprecedented. The | :00:51. | :00:56. | |
funding provided by Her Majdsty s Government to NHS England to the | :00:57. | :01:00. | |
local clinical commissioning groups is going up, but Her Majestx's | :01:01. | :01:04. | |
Government is admitted it is still short of the target amount. I will | :01:05. | :01:11. | |
be delighted to give way to my honourable friend for | :01:12. | :01:15. | |
Wellingborough. I would congratulate my honourable | :01:16. | :01:19. | |
friend on this very important debates, isn't one of the | :01:20. | :01:21. | |
frustrations of people of North Block antigen that the Government | :01:22. | :01:25. | |
has a formula that says how much money we should get cut, thdre does | :01:26. | :01:30. | |
not give it is because it s`ys it over funds elsewhere -- a formula | :01:31. | :01:35. | |
that says how much money we should get, then does not give it to us | :01:36. | :01:40. | |
because it says elsewhere is overfunded. | :01:41. | :01:43. | |
He has a great way of simplhfying complex issues in a readily | :01:44. | :01:47. | |
understandable way, this is another example. NHS England has told Her | :01:48. | :01:52. | |
Majesty's Government that they are targeting both clinical | :01:53. | :01:56. | |
commissioning groups more than % above or below the target ftnding, | :01:57. | :02:06. | |
that we both need and know that clinical groups are underfunded and | :02:07. | :02:13. | |
the cash increase of around 10% for one area and around 9% for Corby | :02:14. | :02:18. | |
brings us within that 5% lo`n, which suggests we are right-sided at the | :02:19. | :02:24. | |
moment. You add the fact th`t we were more than 5% away from the | :02:25. | :02:29. | |
target funding plus we have one of the most rapidly increasing | :02:30. | :02:31. | |
populations in the whole cotntry and you can readily see why there is a | :02:32. | :02:39. | |
very, very Steph Dellacqua stiff challenge for the hospital. | :02:40. | :02:46. | |
Delighted to give way. -- you can readily see why there is a very | :02:47. | :02:49. | |
stiff challenge for the loc`l hospital. Big up residence hn Corby | :02:50. | :02:53. | |
are very proud of the hospital, like his constituents in Kettering. The | :02:54. | :02:57. | |
reason need for new infrastructure to support new homes, would he agree | :02:58. | :03:02. | |
that the new urgent care help waiting for will be really crucial | :03:03. | :03:06. | |
to the future of securing hdalth services in the area, taking the | :03:07. | :03:10. | |
pressure from the A and mdeting the growing need for new residents | :03:11. | :03:14. | |
moving in, but also to meet the Government agenda about better | :03:15. | :03:19. | |
integrating health services? One of the advantages of working so | :03:20. | :03:22. | |
closely with your fellow MPs is that you begin to read each other's | :03:23. | :03:26. | |
minds, my honourable friend has led me seamlessly to section two my | :03:27. | :03:32. | |
speech, entitled urgent card hub. This is in many ways one of the most | :03:33. | :03:38. | |
exciting faced by the hospital. The idea of an urgent care hub hs to | :03:39. | :03:43. | |
have a one site at Kettering General Hospital effectively a one-stop shop | :03:44. | :03:47. | |
for GP services and out-of-hours care. An on-site pharmacy, `nd minor | :03:48. | :03:53. | |
injuries unit, facilities for social services and mental health, access | :03:54. | :03:57. | |
to community care services for the frail and elderly, a replacdment for | :03:58. | :04:01. | |
the hospital A department which is now over 20 years old. The three | :04:02. | :04:08. | |
local MPs are working very hard on this issue but, frankly, we need | :04:09. | :04:13. | |
more support from the hospital minister. The hospital itself has | :04:14. | :04:18. | |
drawn up very ambitious proposals to develop this urgent care hub, it | :04:19. | :04:27. | |
could cost between 13 and ?30 million. It is exactly the sort of | :04:28. | :04:31. | |
thing highlighted by NHS England as an important principle for the way | :04:32. | :04:35. | |
forward in its five-year forward view and it enjoyed the support of | :04:36. | :04:39. | |
the previous Health Minister, the Minister for Central Suffolk and | :04:40. | :04:44. | |
North Ipswich, who in a deb`te in West Hall column for 40 on the 4th | :04:45. | :04:49. | |
of March last year said the following, these were the Mhnister | :04:50. | :04:53. | |
's 's, the principle of the hub is absolutely the way forward for the | :04:54. | :04:57. | |
local NHS, the type of integrated care model we need elsewherd in the | :04:58. | :05:02. | |
country, particularly where the NHS services a broad population. In this | :05:03. | :05:07. | |
case it services nudges Kettering but a partially rural countx and | :05:08. | :05:11. | |
rural area. This is a model that I am sure honourable members will | :05:12. | :05:15. | |
continue to support and I whll to continue to have a keen intdrest in | :05:16. | :05:23. | |
supporting. I hope the plans are successful in providing what | :05:24. | :05:25. | |
constituents want. There ard encouraging signs. Improvemdnts are | :05:26. | :05:29. | |
significant and would ensurd that the local area had a resilidnt and | :05:30. | :05:32. | |
high-quality health care system to deliver the highest quality patient | :05:33. | :05:37. | |
care. Could I ask the Minister if he would be kind enough to visht | :05:38. | :05:42. | |
Kettering General Hospital, partly to look at these proposals for an | :05:43. | :05:48. | |
urgent care hub and also because I will be pestering him at evdry | :05:49. | :05:52. | |
Department of Health questions and I think it would greatly assist the | :05:53. | :05:55. | |
preparation of his answers hf he could visit the hospital and speak | :05:56. | :05:58. | |
from a position of some knowledge. This could be a pioneering | :05:59. | :06:02. | |
development for the NHS in our country, led by a pilot at Kettering | :06:03. | :06:09. | |
General Hospital. This brings me to the wider issue of | :06:10. | :06:14. | |
funding for the state at Kettering General Hospital. A small to medium | :06:15. | :06:21. | |
District General Hospital lhke Kettering on an ageing town centre | :06:22. | :06:26. | |
site will inevitably have a great deal of backlog, maintenancd and | :06:27. | :06:29. | |
equipment replacement every year. The hospital spent something like | :06:30. | :06:35. | |
ten to ?15 million of capit`l each year through loans, swelling the | :06:36. | :06:39. | |
balance sheet in not a very helpful way. Clearly the financing pressure | :06:40. | :06:44. | |
on the hospital is huge. Thd capital programme for next year at the | :06:45. | :06:47. | |
hospital is largely made out of three items, ?5 million and | :06:48. | :06:53. | |
maintenance backlog, just over 1 million for IT infrastructure and | :06:54. | :06:59. | |
almost ?1.5 for medical equhpment. A point that the Health Minister needs | :07:00. | :07:02. | |
to make to the Chancellor is there is currently no capital support to | :07:03. | :07:08. | |
the strategic transformation plans. So transforming our district general | :07:09. | :07:13. | |
hospitals up and down the country will be very difficult. | :07:14. | :07:17. | |
Nevertheless, Kettering Gendral Hospital is being innovativd, it has | :07:18. | :07:21. | |
installed a new modular unit to try to upgrade the A department, with | :07:22. | :07:28. | |
30 major base for complex mddical and surgical needs in A H remind | :07:29. | :07:36. | |
the Minister that Kettering's A E has treated 83,000 patients, it was | :07:37. | :07:41. | |
designed to treat 40000 and was built 20 years ago. The new | :07:42. | :07:44. | |
maternity unit has had ?5 mhllion spent on it, and has brought | :07:45. | :07:50. | |
state-of-the-art maternity services to Kettering Hospital, wherd 38 0 | :07:51. | :07:58. | |
babies are delivered every xear and 2000 gynaecological and obstetric | :07:59. | :08:03. | |
theatre procedures are carrhed out. These are fantastic developlents but | :08:04. | :08:06. | |
very expensive and it is very difficult, frankly, for Kettering | :08:07. | :08:13. | |
NHS Trust to afford them. The fourth point of five is about the national | :08:14. | :08:19. | |
IT roll-out. There are diffhculties that hospitals are experiencing in | :08:20. | :08:24. | |
complying with necessary advances in linking its IT to other reghonal and | :08:25. | :08:34. | |
national services. One example has been the problem local patidnts have | :08:35. | :08:37. | |
experience with getting extra results back. Now that therd is | :08:38. | :08:40. | |
meant to be an integrated E`st Midlands system for x-rays, | :08:41. | :08:46. | |
Kettering had experienced difficulties with this and some of | :08:47. | :08:52. | |
the delays in getting x-rays to patients has been extended to three | :08:53. | :08:56. | |
or four months, which hospital admits is unacceptable. The IT | :08:57. | :09:01. | |
challenge faced by district general hospitals is something the Linister | :09:02. | :09:03. | |
needs to be made aware of. With regards to the workforce, good | :09:04. | :09:09. | |
news that Kettering, becausd it is having success in recruiting staff | :09:10. | :09:16. | |
to the hospital but, nevertheless, there are still vacancies, there are | :09:17. | :09:24. | |
1200 nursing posts at Kettering General Hospital, as of tod`y there | :09:25. | :09:30. | |
is a vacancy for 80. Many of these nurses come from Europe and | :09:31. | :09:36. | |
elsewhere. In fact, at the loment there are 72 European nurses at | :09:37. | :09:40. | |
Kettering General Hospital, and the good news is that 95% have stayed | :09:41. | :09:46. | |
with the trust. Compared to the national average retention rate of | :09:47. | :09:51. | |
28%. On the Minister's visit to the hospital he will be able to learn a | :09:52. | :09:55. | |
really good example of how to retain hard-working staff, which hd might | :09:56. | :10:00. | |
be able to apply elsewhere. 61% of people in Kettering voted to | :10:01. | :10:04. | |
leave the European Union, a fact of which I am hugely proud, but when | :10:05. | :10:10. | |
you -- when we negotiate our Brexit terms and conditions we cle`rly must | :10:11. | :10:14. | |
make provision to retain kex personnel from the European Union | :10:15. | :10:16. | |
who bring to the country thd skills we need and to we have not been able | :10:17. | :10:25. | |
to find from amongst our own people. Madam Deputy Speaker, Kettering | :10:26. | :10:29. | |
General Hospital is a very good hospital under a huge amount of | :10:30. | :10:32. | |
pressure. There are things that the Government can do to make the | :10:33. | :10:39. | |
hospital succeed. Myself and my honourable friends for | :10:40. | :10:41. | |
Wellingborough and Corby will be on the Minister's case for the rest of | :10:42. | :10:46. | |
this Parliament to make surd that our hospital works properly and | :10:47. | :10:50. | |
successfully and delivers the local patient care that people nedd and | :10:51. | :10:51. | |
deserve. May I again congratulate my | :10:52. | :11:02. | |
honourable friend on securing such a special debate and that he has been | :11:03. | :11:07. | |
consistently a champion for Kettering General Hospital? And | :11:08. | :11:09. | |
grateful to the Minister to make the effort to come here today to listen | :11:10. | :11:13. | |
to this debate and perhaps hf he can visit the Kettering General Hospital | :11:14. | :11:17. | |
on the way, he. First at Wellingborough and look at the | :11:18. | :11:23. | |
hospital there. The ice block hospital is a community hospital. It | :11:24. | :11:29. | |
is undergoing refurbishment for new x-ray equipment and the isste that | :11:30. | :11:39. | |
we have is that we should h`ve a minor A unit there, it is part of | :11:40. | :11:42. | |
the overall pub plan, but bdcause that has got bogged down in | :11:43. | :11:51. | |
administration, the expansion has not taken place and that is a | :11:52. | :11:55. | |
mistake because in financial terms, if we had a minor A, 40% of the | :11:56. | :12:05. | |
people who now go to the Kettering General Hospital A would not be to | :12:06. | :12:09. | |
go there and that would savd a lot of money. By spending a little bit | :12:10. | :12:13. | |
of money now, you save a bit of money and it is better for ly | :12:14. | :12:20. | |
constituents... I am grateftl to my honourable friend forgiving way Do | :12:21. | :12:25. | |
we know categorically that hs the case? If you look at Corby, we have | :12:26. | :12:30. | |
the hugely popular and succdssful Corby urgent care centre delivered | :12:31. | :12:35. | |
under a Conservative governlent it works incredibly well, local people | :12:36. | :12:38. | |
go there rather than Ketterhng General Hospital and I think that | :12:39. | :12:47. | |
approach would benefit your area. I am grateful for the intervention and | :12:48. | :12:51. | |
may I say he is so active in Corby, it is no wonder he has got his minor | :12:52. | :12:55. | |
Accident and Emergency centre ahead of me. But that does not, you cannot | :12:56. | :13:04. | |
have a hub and spoke system if one is not there. I just say to the | :13:05. | :13:08. | |
Minister, it would not be a bad idea to see physically white it hs such a | :13:09. | :13:18. | |
good idea. What a pleasure ht is to join you this afternoon to | :13:19. | :13:24. | |
participate in this debate on Kettering General Hospital `nd I | :13:25. | :13:27. | |
congratulate my honourable friend for not just securing this debate, | :13:28. | :13:31. | |
but frankly for his persistdnce in keeping Kettering General Hospital | :13:32. | :13:34. | |
at the forefront of the nathonal debate on what is happening to our | :13:35. | :13:37. | |
health service, he has taken assiduous interest in promoting | :13:38. | :13:44. | |
this, as he has sort of vindicated today, at almost every opportunity | :13:45. | :13:49. | |
he can. He raised the matter at my first health questions this month | :13:50. | :13:52. | |
and he was on his feet raishng the issue with the Prime Ministdr the | :13:53. | :13:56. | |
following day, so I think hd is a worthy champion of the causd. I am | :13:57. | :14:01. | |
therefore fully aware of his interest in local health matters | :14:02. | :14:06. | |
affecting his constituents. I would like to join him in recognising at | :14:07. | :14:11. | |
the outset the great work done by all our staff in the NHS across the | :14:12. | :14:15. | |
country. Especially those staff working in and around Kettering and | :14:16. | :14:20. | |
the other hospitals we have heard of the day from my honourable friend | :14:21. | :14:25. | |
for Colby and my honourable friend for Wellingborough -- Corby. I was | :14:26. | :14:29. | |
invited by two of the three honourable friends who have spoken | :14:30. | :14:35. | |
to attend the hospitals. I have to say, and from a sedentary position, | :14:36. | :14:40. | |
I am sure my honourable fridnd for Corby has extended an invit`tion, I | :14:41. | :14:44. | |
am grateful to you all for that I have to say newly imposed, the | :14:45. | :14:50. | |
demands at present to visit hospitals in greater diffictlty than | :14:51. | :14:57. | |
is the case in any of these cases. But I will endeavour to see what I | :14:58. | :15:01. | |
can do during the course of next year, possibly to visit Kettering. | :15:02. | :15:08. | |
But one visit to all three would kill two birds with one stone. I | :15:09. | :15:12. | |
have responsibility for the acute sector and not community sector and | :15:13. | :15:16. | |
so it would focus initially on Kettering. I will certainly do what | :15:17. | :15:20. | |
I can during the course of sometime next year. And I know that the | :15:21. | :15:27. | |
honourable member has previously met my predecessors to discuss health | :15:28. | :15:32. | |
services in his constituencx. He has raised a number of issues today And | :15:33. | :15:37. | |
I will attempt to address most of them, if not all of them, in the | :15:38. | :15:43. | |
time that I have. I would lhke to start with the concerns he dxpressed | :15:44. | :15:47. | |
over underfunding of his local CCG is, at point raised by my honourable | :15:48. | :15:54. | |
friend from Wellingborough `s well. NHS England is working to move CCGs | :15:55. | :15:59. | |
towards a target fair share of funding. But this has to take place | :16:00. | :16:09. | |
quickly to maintain stability in the system across the country at a time | :16:10. | :16:13. | |
of significant financial ch`llenge. I feel this quite acutely as a local | :16:14. | :16:17. | |
member of Parliament represdnting in rural constituency which has been | :16:18. | :16:21. | |
consistently underfunded. And we are taking steps, as I mentioned in a | :16:22. | :16:28. | |
debate earlier this week, to look at introducing a fairer share of | :16:29. | :16:31. | |
funding for rurall areas and addressing other issues such as | :16:32. | :16:37. | |
social deprivation and a consequence of that has been to try and move | :16:38. | :16:44. | |
those CCGs, in the areas recognised as underfunded, to bring thdm closer | :16:45. | :16:51. | |
to target. The point was mentioned that the CCGs have been beyond the | :16:52. | :16:56. | |
target, beyond 5% of the target and I am pleased to confirm the figures | :16:57. | :17:00. | |
that were raised earlier by my honourable friend for Kettering that | :17:01. | :17:07. | |
Corby CCGs received -- incrdases of 5.2% and 9.4% in the current year, | :17:08. | :17:15. | |
2016 to 2017, compared to the previous year -- financial | :17:16. | :17:18. | |
increases. Significantly above the average for English CCGs. That | :17:19. | :17:23. | |
brings them both within the 5% of their target allocation this year, | :17:24. | :17:29. | |
so they are both within 5%, which is... 9.4, that is certainlx one of | :17:30. | :17:34. | |
the highest increases in allocations we have seen across the country so I | :17:35. | :17:39. | |
hope he does recognise we are moving to correct that historic ch`llenge. | :17:40. | :17:44. | |
This year, more than ?757 mhllion will be going into his local area. | :17:45. | :17:51. | |
Allocations over the next fdw years should bring Corby CCG closdr to its | :17:52. | :17:56. | |
funding target. I am going to take a more -- a moment to touch on the | :17:57. | :18:02. | |
national pressures affecting the NHS. The NHS is very busy btt | :18:03. | :18:08. | |
hospitals generally are performing well. The latest figures for August | :18:09. | :18:13. | |
this year show over nine out of ten people were seen in a knee over four | :18:14. | :18:19. | |
hours and on average, nearlx 2, 00 more people compare the 2008 to 2010 | :18:20. | :18:26. | |
were seen each day within four hours in Accident and Emergency. | :18:27. | :18:30. | |
Paramedics respond to the m`jority of life-threatening cases in under | :18:31. | :18:34. | |
nine macro minutes. -- eight minutes. An average of 18,300 a day | :18:35. | :18:45. | |
were seen. Ambulance servicds are busy, which is why we are increasing | :18:46. | :18:50. | |
paramedic training places bx over 60% this year alone. On top of the | :18:51. | :18:56. | |
2300 extra paramedics that have joined the NHS since 2010. This | :18:57. | :19:00. | |
allows more than 200 additional ambulances to be deployed bx the | :19:01. | :19:09. | |
NHS, compared with 2010. The Minister is making a very good | :19:10. | :19:13. | |
point, but would he accept that if an ambulance was to go to the | :19:14. | :19:19. | |
Isebrook and take a patient, ten minutes transport, rather than | :19:20. | :19:22. | |
Kettering in 45 minutes, is that's not sort of thing we could look at | :19:23. | :19:27. | |
an efficiency saving which hs worth an investment in the Isebrook? I | :19:28. | :19:32. | |
would agree, in the event that the hospital in Wellingborough was able | :19:33. | :19:37. | |
to cope with the condition. But many of the most serious conditions need | :19:38. | :19:40. | |
to go to the best place to deliver the service, even if it takds a bit | :19:41. | :19:45. | |
longer to get to it. The qu`lity of treatment in our ambulances come up | :19:46. | :19:50. | |
with the skills the paramedhcs in almost all cases on board, ht is | :19:51. | :19:58. | |
such that very few people dhe while in ambulances in transit. They are | :19:59. | :20:01. | |
kept stable and they need to go to the best place to treat thel. So | :20:02. | :20:07. | |
just reverting for a moment of the national picture. The NHS l`st year | :20:08. | :20:13. | |
treated on average 21,000 more outpatients a day and performed more | :20:14. | :20:19. | |
than 4400 operations a day paired with 2010. So there is substantially | :20:20. | :20:23. | |
more activity happening across the NHS and that is one of the reasons | :20:24. | :20:28. | |
why a we have recruited so lany more clinicians to cope with this | :20:29. | :20:32. | |
activity. There are now over 8, 00 more doctors and over 2700 lore | :20:33. | :20:39. | |
nurses, paid for in part by having nearly 7,000 fewer managers across | :20:40. | :20:44. | |
the NHS. We want to reduce pressure on services by reforming urgent care | :20:45. | :20:49. | |
systems and caring for people better in the community. That is why I | :20:50. | :20:52. | |
think some of the things behng done and planned for the Kettering area | :20:53. | :20:56. | |
are interesting and innovathve. And it is clear that the NHS in my | :20:57. | :21:03. | |
honourable friend's constittency understands the scale of thd | :21:04. | :21:06. | |
challenge and is taking acthon to address it. The problem is, it is | :21:07. | :21:14. | |
the urgent care hair health proposals which are exciting and | :21:15. | :21:18. | |
could be rolled out across the country and is now with NHS | :21:19. | :21:23. | |
improvement. It eats their say-so to go to the consultancy phase. Indeed. | :21:24. | :21:30. | |
-- it needs. As our plans for improvement and integration across | :21:31. | :21:33. | |
collaborative NHS areas across the country through this detaindd | :21:34. | :21:39. | |
ability and transport -- through the sustainability and transforlation | :21:40. | :21:42. | |
plans, been delivered today across the country, including for the | :21:43. | :21:49. | |
Kettering area. And it would be NHS England who will review those plans | :21:50. | :21:53. | |
and he will then decide to prioritise those which need the | :21:54. | :22:01. | |
national objectives -- which meet. And the best thought out. I am going | :22:02. | :22:07. | |
to touch a little bit now, hf I may, on the capital challenge th`t was | :22:08. | :22:14. | |
raised by my honourable fridnd. So since... In the last few ye`rs, the | :22:15. | :22:20. | |
department has provided just over ?37 million of interim revenue | :22:21. | :22:24. | |
support and over ?15 million of emergency capital to the trtst. | :22:25. | :22:28. | |
Since May 2010, capital expdnditure on this hospital has amountdd to | :22:29. | :22:37. | |
?68.7 million, so it is recdiving quite substantial support from the | :22:38. | :22:42. | |
Department. And the intention of the transformation work being undertaken | :22:43. | :22:45. | |
is to move to a position whdre the ability to cope with the additional | :22:46. | :22:51. | |
pressures which remain on A and across the patient flow in hospital | :22:52. | :22:55. | |
to a position where that is built-in. My honourable fridnd | :22:56. | :23:00. | |
referred to the trust and elergency departments being too small and | :23:01. | :23:04. | |
limited in scope, and he totched on the new construction that h`s | :23:05. | :23:07. | |
happened and was completed this year to extend the scope of the @ | :23:08. | :23:13. | |
department. It was originally built 20 years ago, the 40,000 attendances | :23:14. | :23:19. | |
a year, and now deals with 8200 and more. The trust has reduced A | :23:20. | :23:25. | |
attendances impaired with shx years ago, when over 3,000 fewer. The | :23:26. | :23:33. | |
measures to integrate with the surrounding area are reducing | :23:34. | :23:35. | |
attendances, despite the growing demand overall. The trust h`s been | :23:36. | :23:40. | |
successful in recruiting and training additional medical staff, | :23:41. | :23:45. | |
as he has indicated, and since 010, the trust has increased doctors by | :23:46. | :23:53. | |
77, 20 4%. That is a signifhcant, one of the most significant | :23:54. | :23:58. | |
increases I have seen so far. Some of those have come in from | :23:59. | :24:05. | |
recruitment of staff through the certificate of eligibility for | :24:06. | :24:07. | |
specialist registration where doctors have completed spechalist | :24:08. | :24:11. | |
training overseas and chosen to come to this country to practise. He also | :24:12. | :24:15. | |
referred, as my honourable friend for Corby did, to proposals to | :24:16. | :24:24. | |
develop the urgent care hub at the hospital, a one-stop shop to enable | :24:25. | :24:27. | |
patients to use primary card facilities rather than A by having | :24:28. | :24:32. | |
them cola catered in Ketterhng. They would enable rapid assessment, | :24:33. | :24:36. | |
diagnosis and treatment by appropriate Health and Soci`l Care | :24:37. | :24:39. | |
Act professionals, and patidnt streamed into the appropriate | :24:40. | :24:43. | |
treatment area to minimise delay and reduce the need for admissions. This | :24:44. | :24:46. | |
is best practice across the NHS to relieve pressure on clinici`ns in | :24:47. | :24:55. | |
the A Department. The honourable member has raised the possibility of | :24:56. | :24:58. | |
capital investment for development of this hub and the Departmdnt's | :24:59. | :25:05. | |
position has not changed. Wd are looking to the trust to takd | :25:06. | :25:08. | |
responsibility to develop and take forward their own capital investment | :25:09. | :25:11. | |
proposals and trusts such as Kettering can apply to the | :25:12. | :25:17. | |
independent financing facilhty for a capital investment alone. And they | :25:18. | :25:21. | |
need to be working closely with local planning authorities to ensure | :25:22. | :25:25. | |
that developer infrastructure contributions can be taken hnto | :25:26. | :25:29. | |
account as a source of fundhng. I hope that these plans will be | :25:30. | :25:33. | |
successful as they emerge and as I have indicated, and one of ly visits | :25:34. | :25:40. | |
North if I am allowed on a suitable date when I am not required here in | :25:41. | :25:44. | |
the chamber, I hope I will found an opportunity to visit Ketterhng. | :25:45. | :25:50. | |
Order, order, the House stands adjourned. | :25:51. | :25:52. |