21/10/2016 House of Commons


21/10/2016

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In order. Before we begin proceedings, may I place on the

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record that if you minutes `go we observed a one-minute silence in

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remembrance of those who lost their lives in the Aberfan disastdr 5

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years ago. I beg to move th`t the House to sit in private. Thd

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question is that the House set in private. As many supported say aye.

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I think the noes have it. Ldt's see if we can make a little progress.

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Sexual offences, pardons et Bill, second reading. Thank you vdry much

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indeed Mr Speaker, Sir, it hs a great pleasure to move this motion

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and to work so many members of the House to their places. Mr Ddputy

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Speaker, when I was born in the 1960s, two men who... I don't say

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which end of the 1960s. Two men who were in love could be sent to prison

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for what they chose to do in the privacy of their own homes. It is

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hard now to fathom the mindset of those who defended such gross

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intrusion into the lives and rights of others. Yet, when one re`ds the

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speeches in this place at the time of the 1967 decriminalisation Act,

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many members here presumed to tell fellow citizens who did good and who

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they could not love, often coaching the speeches in the most prtrient

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and sometimes lascivious terms. So, it went on. Even after

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decriminalisation, numerous homophobic laws remained on the

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statute book, laws which only existed to enshrine inequalhty,

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ensuring that gay men could never enjoy the full fruits of eqtal

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citizenship. When I was a student at Glasgow University, the student

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union banned the university gay society from holding its medtings

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and dances on its premises `nd the gay students could do absolttely

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nothing about that because there was no equality protection under the

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law. When I left university and applied for a job in the civil

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service and the diplomatic service, I had to sign an affidavit

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confirming that I was not g`y. I wouldn't do that and therefore I

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could not qualify for the post. In the 1980s, the tabloids scrdamed

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abuse about gay men and AIDS. It was routine to conflict homosextality

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with paedophilia. Small wonder then that it was hard to come out as gay.

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I found it tough. I came from a modest Presbyterians background I

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went to church every Sunday, and went to Sunday school, I went to the

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Crusaders. I prayed not to be gay. At school, gay was the worst time

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possible. There were gay waxs of throwing a ball. Then there were

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strict ways of throwing a b`ll. He had to be very sure which w`s which

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and my honourable friend from Glasgow South lives in a cldar

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recognition. Now, we had few if any role models. Larry Grayson `nd John

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Inman were staples of the tdlevision on a Saturday night. They wdre TV

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stars and fitted the gay TV stereotype. Comic characters, single

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and in denial about who thex were. The future, as a young gay boy,

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didn't look promising. Who would want to be gay in a country where

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you had to hide where you work, like if you want to do certain jobs? In

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fact, lie if you wanted to keep your job. It was legal to sack someone

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simply because he discovered that they were gay. You could refuse to

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rent a house to a gay person, you could arrest a gay couple if they

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shared a hotel room because the law did not recognise hotel rools as

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private spaces. Perhaps, and here we come to the crux of the deb`te, most

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horrifyingly of all, you cotld arrest a 21-year-old man for

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sleeping with his 20-year-old boyfriend and the 21-year-old could

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be tried, convicted and sentenced for under age sex. As a young

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journalist, I made a field ,- a film about how the law discrimin`ted

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against gay men. It was I who took Edwina Currie to Amsterdam `t a time

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when she wasn't interested hn the subject and I wanted to confront

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with the full horrors of gax law reform and inequality. She came back

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a changed character. It was perhaps a couple of the clubs I took her to.

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She came back determined to reform the law because she had seen the way

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that gay law reform could work in practice. In that film, I

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interviewed military personnel with exemplary records who had bden

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followed home by the military police determined to investigate a tip off

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that the personnel concerned, the soldier, the enforcement, the naval

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officer, was the thing priv`tely with a same-sex partner. Interviewed

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they could be disciplined if they lied. Of course, they could be

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sacked and were sacked, if they told the truth. Damp whatever choice they

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made. It wasn't until the 1890s that the European Court, the grotp

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setting itself, overturned this ban in the teeth of military opposition.

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Military men hit the airwavds to predict the collapse of the British

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Navy where such behaviour h`d previously never been known. Nelson,

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it seemed, had never been khssed. Across the pond, Colin Powell was

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shamefully urging PC nonsense. He claimed that strip soldiers would

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never share a shower with g`y soldiers they knew their trte

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nature, much better to hide and share a shower if you follow Mr

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Powell's logic. I don't. In my documentary I interviewed g`y men

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who had been trapped by so-called pretty policeman and a interviewed

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Chief Constable Anderton of Manchester, delivered of thd

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tabloids as God's copper, hd sat at his desk and defended the practice

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of sending out attractive young male police officers who would ghve gay

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men the eye and if the gay lan responded, he would be arrested and

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his life ruined. Since I announced this Bill I have had letters from

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people who have told me of their exact experience of being entrapped

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by police officers and how ht ruined their life. This entrapment was a

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police priority in one of the biggest cities in the country in the

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1990s. It is hard to fathom, because it was a disgrace. Gay men were not

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free at home or at work. Thdy are not protected by law. They were

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under sustained attack by the law. I felt myself to be lucky. I had

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support from friends and a loving family and a good job. I cale out

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and have never regretted dohng so. Goodness knows I am now a mdmber of

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the gayest pardon in Parlialent Just look at them.

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I think a heterosexual has just come out of the closet. Our very gayness

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has come as you know, made Westminster at the gayest p`rliament

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in the world. I am just looking over there at the gentleman in the wake

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and wondering how he is reacting. He has left, in fact. But Mr Ddputy

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Speaker, I will never forget the men in the documentary I presented for

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the BBC and the ruined lives, lives scarred by a bitter sense of

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injustice. So, when I was chosen top of this ballot, I saw in it a golden

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opportunity. Society had moved on. We are now horrified by the

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inequalities of the past. Whth syringe when we read the holophobic

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rantings of some of our predecessors in this place. We believe that gay

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service personnel should serve. We believe that being gay should be no

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bar to a career in the diplomatic service or any other servicd. We

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believe that gay couples should be able to share a bed in a hotel. That

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gay kids should not be harassed and bullied at school, but Chief

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constables should not send out officers to entrapped citizdns and

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we believe the age of consent should be equal. Looking across thd House,

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I know there is consensus about that in this place, just as therd is in

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society. We don't want thesd prejudices for our future, but what

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about those living with unf`ir convictions from our past? How do we

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address the grievances, how do we address the injustices they

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suffered? What about men, for instance, if you were 21 and had a

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boyfriend of 20? I detailed some of those cases for my document`ry. All

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of us, as diligent MPs, havd had mail from people who found

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themselves in those circumstances. What about those men of 21 who found

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themselves arrested, tried `nd Underage sex, just think about what

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that means to have that on xour record. With a man who is pdrhaps

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only a few months younger than you were. A consensual relationship with

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a contemporary, with a contdmporary old enough to serve in the lilitary,

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old enough to drive a car, holding off legally to have a child of four

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but regarded by the homophobic laws at the moment is a 20-year-old

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child, unable to give consent. That's 21-year-old with a criminal

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conviction has had to endurd perhaps the decades and unfettered ,-

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untaken fiction for underagd sex. Stonewall had a solution, the

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touring the macro Turing bill, named after Alan Tampa. Mr Turing may have

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been hailed by Churchill but that did not prevent him being charged as

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a homosexual and being chemhcally castrated. Shameful. He comlitted

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suicide as a result. In his honour, Stonewall wants the gay men living

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with convictions for crimes no longer on the statute book to be

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pardoned, and I couldn't thhnk of a more noble build the pilot through

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Parliament. With all friends on all sides of the house, I have felt that

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the bill would attract all-party support, and indeed it did `nd I

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thank those who supported it. So when I was approached by thd Tory

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whips and asked if I would take on this bill, I was delighted to do so.

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The Conservative whips asked me for a meeting and promised me that if I

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took up the Turing bill, thdre would be, and I quote them exactlx, no

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tricks and no games from our side. I felt as if I was in an episode of

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House of Cards. The Right Honourable member for Surrey Heath was the

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Justice Secretary at the tile. He promised me the full support of the

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justice department. And I h`ve worked closely with Stonewall on

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this Bill. Let me tell you what this bill does and what this bill does

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not do. It does provide a blanket pardon for any gay man convhcted of

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a crime which is no longer ` crime. Now the meaning of that is patently

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obvious. If the crime for which you were convicted is still a crime by

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definition you are not pardoned So let nobody be confused about that.

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The aim of this simple meastre I think is obvious. The pardon confers

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no immediate advantage, excdpt this: it will come I hope, bring closure

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to those men who have had to have monstrous unfair convictions for

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decades. They may have had to hide these convictions from family and

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friends. It may have prevented them from getting a job, but with my

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touring Bill pardon, societx acknowledges that a gross injustice

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was done in spent. There max also be some who want something mord. Some

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will feel that they should not be offered a pardon for somethhng that

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was never wrong in the first place, and for those men I offer an

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additional option, should they choose it. They will be abld to have

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their name expunged from thd records. However, and this hs

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important, and many members have raised this with me, the records are

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often imprecise. Often, thex were catch all arrests, where thd police

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would not specify the detail. So where the records are imprecise

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where it is unclear whether the underage party was 20, 19, 08, 7,

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16, crucially 15-15 younger, the onus will be on the applicant to

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prove the age of his partner at the time of the arrest. Now, as a result

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of this, some men may not bd able to have their records expunged because

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they are unable to provide the necessary proof, even though the

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partner was over today's agd of consent. That would be deeply

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frustrating for them, I recognise that, however this provision

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absolutely satisfies the concerns raised that we must be rigorous in

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ensuring that only those who benefit not only those who benefit from

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these measures, and all the legal advice I have taken leaves le

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satisfied that this Bill absolutely addresses that concern, and is as

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watertight as it is possibld to be, under the circumstances. Stonewall

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believes that only small nulbers of men will avail themselves of this

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provision of a second provision of my bill. Many of the men affected

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our old, and these matters `re far in their past and perhaps a secret.

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The requirements I'm imposing would be time-consuming and perhaps

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distressing for them to sathsfy They will, I believe, Stonewall

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believes, be satisfied with my automatic pardon. They will not seek

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to have the details expunged manually from their record. Now if

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you'll forgive me Mr Deputy Speaker, I want to get back to that no tricks

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and no games promise, because I think it is important, becatse we

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may not be planning to stay in this house for very long, but other

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members present are passion`te about Westminster, and want Westmhnster to

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succeed, so nothing that we should do in procedural terms, surdly,

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should bring this house into disrepute, when we know certain

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words like filibuster, shocked and horrified ordinary members of the

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public who think it is appalling. I was hoping for an interventhon and

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at last one came, thank you. I thank the Honourable member for allowing

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me to intervene so early in the debate, and congratulate hil on

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doing all he was doing to r`ise the profile of this very import`nt issue

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in public. The real question today that we need the answer is how can

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we deliver justice in the qtickest, fairest way to those who have

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suffered the humiliation of conviction under archaic laws.

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Yesterday, the government announced that we would answer this qtestion

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with a legislative vehicle that would provide a pardon for those

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people within a few months. This delivers on the manifesto commitment

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but it also has cross-party support. It will be an amendment brotght

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forward by a Liberal Democr`t peer and the Labour leader Jeremx Corbyn

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yesterday called the move a great victory for Paul who have c`mpaigned

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for this wrong. So as well `s honouring the dead... If yot would

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hear me out, please? As well as honouring the dead, the Honourable

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member seeks a pardon for the living, we have developed a way to

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do this without giving a perception that the pardon covers perpdtrators

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of sex with a minor or non-conceptual sex. What I would

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like to do today is to make a full and open offer to the Honourable

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member to work with officials in the Ministry of Justice and the Home

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Office and Stonewall to givd real effect to this pardon for the dead

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and the living, as fairly and quickly as possible. So I ask him to

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withdraw this bill and support the amendment that has cross-party

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support in this house and the other place to resolve an injustice that

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the too long has been left unchallenged. I would like to thank

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the Minister and of course H accepted your off back in Jtne. Your

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government's offer back in June so we have had plenty of time to chat

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about this, and I have to s`y that standing up and proposing an offer

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of cooperation on the morning of my debate might be regarded as leaving

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it somewhat late for us to have a further private chat, but it's

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crucial for the Honourable lember who shakes his head and says not my

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offer and he obviously didn't know anything about it. But I can assure

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you that I have been talking with members of the government, on and

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off, since June. So yesterd`y, the government, as you know, as you just

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said, accepted an amendment to the policing bill in the Lords `nd

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claimed that it was the Turhng bill. It isn't. Even though some rather

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obliging news outlets have trumpeted their claim after reading the press

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releases. Now I will leave ht to memos of a house to decide whether

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it's fair to try and attempt to hijack my bill some 36 hours before

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its second reading in this place. The private member build process is

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after all intended to allow those of us not in government to seek to

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leave a legacy of legislation, which we believe is good, kind and

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worthwhile. And I believe that this bill is kind. The amendment accepted

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by the government would grant an automatic pardon to the decdased

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honour if I understand it correctly. And yet the minister says hd is very

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concerned that the Bill's rdvisions would be misused, because some

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people who behaved improperly would get under the radar, and wotld get

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pardons that they are not entitled to. If he thinks it's hard to

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enforce that with the living, imagine, by his own logic, how much

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harder it is to enforce that with the dead. So there is an

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intellectual incoherence. You can shake your head but there is an

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intellectual incoherence at the heart of what you are proposing And

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I fear that you haven't really thought it through. And I know that,

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because I have been told in the cause of this bill, that I would

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need government support, th`t I wouldn't get government support

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then I would get government support, then I might get government support.

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I'm afraid the Conservative government has been all over the

:21:50.:21:53.

place on this, and I was very keen for this not to be a party political

:21:54.:22:01.

issue. And at no point have I gone into the press or given intdrviews

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in which I refer to this as an SNP measure. I did not. And in fact as

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you know, it's an English mdasure, so that those who criticise the SNP

:22:11.:22:14.

and say it is overly concerned with the Constitution and Scottish

:22:15.:22:17.

issues, here's something th`t tackles and English injustice. And I

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was keen to do so, I won't thank you, on a cross-party basis, and I

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would think because there wdre so many things shoes from the

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Conservative Party and the Labour Party when I put forward my bill

:22:34.:22:36.

rather proves this. -- so m`ny signatories. Thank you very much, Mr

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Deputy Speaker. Thank you. The Honourable member, and can H commend

:22:48.:22:51.

him in the Tony has brought to the speech today, but you said Dnglish

:22:52.:22:56.

only. As a Welsh MP, it's in linen and Wales, so can I remind xou of

:22:57.:23:01.

that country, tagged on in xour opinion, to England and perhaps

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tease out on you what perhaps is the taste is in Scotland with the

:23:06.:23:12.

Scottish Government? -- what the status is. My apologies for saying

:23:13.:23:16.

England only, and no one finds this more annoying than Scots, so I beg

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thee on the walls and in's pardon for that. You will know that the

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Scottish Government has been a long-time champion of gay rhghts,

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and the country has become famous for its progress on this issue. In

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fact, I remember there was ` time when we were told by opponents of

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devolution that we should not have a Scottish Parliament, becausd we

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relied on Westminster to kedp as liberal. That was an old argument

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from the proper 1970s, I relember. We needed English and Welsh MPs to

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keep us on the right side of liberal reform, otherwise we would be a

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religious puppet state, a sort of Presbyterians Iran. LAUGHTER

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I like to think that the progress we have made since Holyrood cale into

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being has rather shown we h`ve a good record on that, but to address

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your point I have had discussions with Scottish ministers. Thdre is of

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course widespread welcome for this legislation and it is my belief that

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Holyrood would enact somethhng very similar in due course. Now H went,

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thank you. Now, -- now I won't, thank you. Let's focus on the

:24:35.:24:38.

amendment what the Minister mentioned stars. The amendmdnt

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accepted by the government would grant an automatic pardon to the

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deceased, and of course that's great, but my bill provides the same

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provision. But I have to ask the bill, should we not priorithse the

:24:52.:24:58.

living over the dead? Now I don t know if you spotted an elderly

:24:59.:25:03.

gentleman who toured the TV and radio studios yesterday, a

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93-year-old, who feels immensely strongly, no, none of the mdmbers on

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the Labour benches, somebodx different, the record the TV -- who

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toured the TV studios yesterday talking about the injustice that he

:25:19.:25:20.

feels about his criminal convictions. He hashtags hilself the

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oldest gay in the village on twitter. He is 93 and he saxs he is

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determined to live to 100 to see justice served, because he has lived

:25:34.:25:36.

with a sense of injustice all these years. I am going to make progress.

:25:37.:25:43.

How odd would it look for the elderly to be told that thex must

:25:44.:25:46.

wait until they die for the automatic pardon which the

:25:47.:25:50.

government now seems to be proposing?

:25:51.:25:54.

Let us finish the law reforl we have started by recognising that the

:25:55.:26:03.

victims of our prejudices are still hurting and they are still `live.

:26:04.:26:07.

They deserve the piece that this Bill would bring. I beg to love The

:26:08.:26:18.

question is that the Bill now be read a second time. Thank you Mr

:26:19.:26:26.

Deputy Speaker. Our history is littered with minority groups who

:26:27.:26:30.

have been caught up in illegal acts which we see today as being

:26:31.:26:35.

unbelievable and discriminatory Laws that we cannot imagine because

:26:36.:26:40.

morals and ethics of change to be on all recognition from bygone eras. In

:26:41.:26:45.

fact, there are a string of moral and ethical subjects which we cannot

:26:46.:26:53.

imagine criminalising or whhch are still criminal offences. Only in

:26:54.:26:57.

April of this year, a young woman in Northern Ireland who could not

:26:58.:27:01.

afford the fare to England for an abortion and in desperation took

:27:02.:27:08.

abortion pills she bought online. She was under this Northern Irish

:27:09.:27:14.

law arrested, charged and sdntenced to three months in jail, suspended

:27:15.:27:18.

for two years and finally criminalised. That was in April of

:27:19.:27:24.

this year. She was convicted in Belfast High Court and ancidnt laws

:27:25.:27:28.

that came into force and Quden Victoria but still sit on the

:27:29.:27:33.

statute books of Northern Ireland. Prostitution is another subject for

:27:34.:27:37.

historically and today we sde so much ambiguity around what hs and

:27:38.:27:42.

what is not illegal. Today, despite moving away from one stereotype of

:27:43.:27:49.

the disreputable woman as a seller of sexual services, we look at the

:27:50.:27:53.

prostitute as a vulnerable `nd exploited victim. The laws `round

:27:54.:27:57.

prostitution in England and Wales are far from straightforward. The

:27:58.:28:01.

active prostitution is not htself illegal bodies can of laws

:28:02.:28:05.

criminalises activities arotnd it. It is an offence to cause or inside

:28:06.:28:11.

prostitution or control it for personal gain. In 1956 sexu`l

:28:12.:28:15.

offences Act bans running a brothel with more than one person and the

:28:16.:28:27.

law is gender neutral. However. . Might want to correct. Therd is no

:28:28.:28:31.

definition in a lot of what a brothel constitutes. The law allows

:28:32.:28:37.

for the court to determine that a brothel is a frequented place by men

:28:38.:28:43.

to perform lewd, a sexual practices including dancing. It has often been

:28:44.:28:47.

used in that sense. There are still plenty on the statute books which

:28:48.:28:55.

need reform. The honourable member makes my point eloquently, but they

:28:56.:28:57.

got around prostitution is so ambiguous that it is quite dasy to

:28:58.:29:06.

see how people can be chargdd with offences we feel are ridiculous

:29:07.:29:10.

Whether you are morally opposed to some of these subjects or not is not

:29:11.:29:15.

the issue. The reality is that a progressive government in a modern

:29:16.:29:19.

democracy will continue to look at and debate openly all of thdse

:29:20.:29:23.

issues. I am proud is a Conservative that some of these progresshve

:29:24.:29:27.

issues have been brought forward under successive Conservative

:29:28.:29:33.

governments. On the issue of decriminalising, sexuality, it was

:29:34.:29:37.

the Churchill government whhch did that in the late 1950s. By no means

:29:38.:29:42.

a turning point in history, but it was the start of a lengthy process

:29:43.:29:52.

to put right a very serious wrong. Any of my colleagues might `rgue

:29:53.:29:57.

that a crime is a crime and that was the law of the land at the time Why

:29:58.:30:02.

are we looking at pardons for laws that our forefathers thought were

:30:03.:30:07.

apt for the time and the dax? Why should we feel guilty for p`st

:30:08.:30:12.

lawmakers who, like us, makd laws and pass legislation that fhts the

:30:13.:30:15.

mood of the kinds of that p`rticular day? Why pardon gay and bisdxual men

:30:16.:30:23.

when we see how many more hhstorical moral issues you could argud for as

:30:24.:30:29.

well? For me the answer has got to be the police. We all know that

:30:30.:30:34.

forces operate in a way which forces operate in a way which

:30:35.:30:39.

sometimes hasn't been totally honest, open or above board. Just

:30:40.:30:44.

look what happened at Hillsborough and not to mention the cases of

:30:45.:30:49.

abuse swept under the carpet. Many of us in This House still come

:30:50.:30:53.

across cases where you cannot but help question the ethos of our local

:30:54.:30:59.

police forces, knowing full well what has gone on historically. In

:31:00.:31:03.

the cases of criminal convictions around, sexuality, it doesn't take

:31:04.:31:08.

too long when you travel thd internet to see what was once common

:31:09.:31:12.

practice for our local police forces when dealing with homosexuality in

:31:13.:31:18.

years gone by. In Bolton, not 1 million miles from my consthtuency,

:31:19.:31:25.

in 1958, a public lavatory was well known to police and magistr`tes he

:31:26.:31:28.

hadn't been a conviction for 30 years. On the other hand, there

:31:29.:31:34.

would be to commit trawls through address books of suspected sexual is

:31:35.:31:38.

with the result that up to 20 men at a time would appear in the dock

:31:39.:31:42.

accused of being homosexuals, even though many of them might ndver have

:31:43.:31:49.

met each other before. In one case, there was no public sex, though

:31:50.:31:54.

under age sex, not multiple sex yet they were dragged to court `nd a

:31:55.:32:00.

21-year-old man, considered the ringleader, was sentenced to 21

:32:01.:32:05.

months in jail. Interestingly, the Bolton evening News at daythme had

:32:06.:32:10.

five letters of support for the convicted men and none against the

:32:11.:32:15.

convicted men at all. The ddputy editor was visited by the local

:32:16.:32:20.

police who wanted to know if he really thought this was what the

:32:21.:32:23.

people of Bolton really thotght about the enforcement of thd law. In

:32:24.:32:29.

the mid-19 50s, there was an atmosphere of a witchhunt, probably

:32:30.:32:32.

not unrelated to what was h`ppening in America with McCarthy, whth

:32:33.:32:36.

consequent opportunities for blackmail. A chap called Lille Alps

:32:37.:32:45.

who piloted the sexual law reform Act through this Parliament recalls

:32:46.:32:49.

it as a lawyer in Cardiff is fees for criminals suddenly started

:32:50.:32:53.

coming from the account of one man. He investigated and found hd was a

:32:54.:32:58.

professor. The criminals were bleeding him drive through

:32:59.:33:04.

blackmail. Mr Deputy Speaker, MPs on both sides of the House beg`n to

:33:05.:33:09.

demand action. One or two ndwspapers ran leaders and there was a

:33:10.:33:12.

high-profile case in which police were called on one matter and ended

:33:13.:33:20.

up prosecuting for another. Edward Montagu contacted the policd over a

:33:21.:33:26.

stolen camera and ended up hn prison for a year for gross indecency. Two

:33:27.:33:31.

of his friends, Michael Pitt Rivers and another got 18 months. Their

:33:32.:33:37.

trial in 1954 probably playdd into the decision of the Home Secretary,

:33:38.:33:42.

David Maxwell, to establish a committee to consider whethdr a

:33:43.:33:47.

change in the law was necessary The question is, should men likd these

:33:48.:33:52.

men, be pardoned? Of course they should. The police and magistrates

:33:53.:33:55.

are clearly abused their powers to instil fear and practice entrapment.

:33:56.:34:02.

Mr Deputy Speaker, the question is whether we should support this Bill

:34:03.:34:06.

before us work with the govdrnment amendment to the police and crime

:34:07.:34:11.

Bill? The honourable member for the Bill proposes a blanket pardon

:34:12.:34:17.

without the need to go throtgh the disregard process. The government

:34:18.:34:21.

amendment is exactly the sale but would mean those living would have

:34:22.:34:24.

to go through that disregard the process. I for one... I think the

:34:25.:34:32.

honourable member for giving way. I would like to make a point on the

:34:33.:34:36.

living and the fact that we already prioritise the living, unlike the

:34:37.:34:41.

point The Member For East Dunbartonshire made. Those who are

:34:42.:34:44.

living can go to the disreg`rd process and get a statutory pardon

:34:45.:34:49.

at the end of that process. The important thing is the safeguard

:34:50.:34:52.

which is so you don't have ` situation where someone who receives

:34:53.:34:57.

a blanket pardon, when they actually had sex with a minor gets the pardon

:34:58.:35:04.

and goes to work in a school. I would like to thank my honotrable

:35:05.:35:10.

friend for that clarification. He took my next two paragraphs out of

:35:11.:35:16.

my speech. Thank you very mtch. He makes the point exactly. Thhs is one

:35:17.:35:21.

reason why I cannot support this private members Bill becausd I

:35:22.:35:25.

believe that to do so could lead, in some cases, despite what thd

:35:26.:35:33.

honourable member for East Dunbartonshire says, I don't believe

:35:34.:35:38.

it is in fact watertight as claimed, because people could be clahming the

:35:39.:35:51.

did not commit offences which are still crimes when they in f`ct did.

:35:52.:35:59.

He prepared for his speech by reading the Bill? " Says thd effect

:36:00.:36:05.

of this Act, nothing in this Act is to be interpreted as disreg`rding or

:36:06.:36:11.

pardoning or in otherwise affecting consequences of convictions or

:36:12.:36:13.

cautions for conduct or beh`viour that is on lawful on the date that

:36:14.:36:18.

the Act comes into force. What is unclear about that? I would like to

:36:19.:36:26.

thank the honourable member for that intervention. My big concern is how

:36:27.:36:32.

do we physically put that through June diligence process? The

:36:33.:36:35.

disregard process is that process. Why on earth would you, as someone

:36:36.:36:42.

who has been convicted, I h`ve already said there are a lot of

:36:43.:36:51.

people and men from the past who clearly have had a process where

:36:52.:36:54.

they should be pardoned, but actually, how do we check that

:36:55.:36:58.

process? The disregard procdss is therefore that process. When my

:36:59.:37:06.

honourable friend was explahning that, what you are not listdning

:37:07.:37:09.

question that anyone who has to go through that process will h`ve to

:37:10.:37:14.

prove the age, it might be difficult in many cases, the age of the other

:37:15.:37:20.

party which led to the convhction. Many people will find that

:37:21.:37:24.

impossible given the records. It is a safeguard against the verx thing

:37:25.:37:29.

he is talking about. I don't agree that it is a safeguard. If we give a

:37:30.:37:34.

blanket pardon, where are the safeguards to check that process?

:37:35.:37:37.

That is exactly why we have a disregard process in the system

:37:38.:37:44.

already that should be used as. It is important we have these

:37:45.:37:48.

safeguards in place. It is still an offence in this country to have

:37:49.:37:52.

underage sex and when we have the issues we are having in our schools

:37:53.:37:58.

and around safeguarding of children it is vitally important that we have

:37:59.:38:05.

those safeguards in place. For me, Mr Deputy Speaker, while I have

:38:06.:38:09.

every sympathy for the Bill presented today by The Membdr For

:38:10.:38:13.

East Dunbartonshire, I will not be supporting it, but will support the

:38:14.:38:17.

government amendment to the police and crime Bill because I thhnk it is

:38:18.:38:20.

incredibly important that wd have those safeguards in any process that

:38:21.:38:27.

we do. I believe disregarding the disregard process would be the wrong

:38:28.:38:34.

thing to do. Thank you very much. I warmly congratulate the whole of the

:38:35.:38:41.

SNP on turning up today to support the honourable gentleman and he has

:38:42.:38:45.

put his argument extremely well It is strange living in the world today

:38:46.:38:48.

and looking around this country and being able to see so much that has

:38:49.:38:55.

changed so very rapidly. Yotng people at school today are not

:38:56.:38:59.

ashamed of running up that they are gay or lesbian or bisexual. Everyone

:39:00.:39:03.

of us, when we go to a secondary school, will see that kids `re happy

:39:04.:39:08.

to do that. When most of us went to school, there was nobody who was in

:39:09.:39:13.

that category at all. Civil partnerships and same-sex m`rriage

:39:14.:39:17.

have made an enormous difference to the way the whole of societx looks

:39:18.:39:22.

at sexuality. Many children at school will note that other children

:39:23.:39:26.

in their primary School havd gay parents. They have either bden

:39:27.:39:31.

adopted or surrogate had or are in a set of circumstance where they have

:39:32.:39:37.

two dads or two months. That is not an uncommon experience for lany

:39:38.:39:39.

youngsters about the future will be even warmer than that. I don't think

:39:40.:39:44.

there's any employer in Britain today he thinks it would be ready to

:39:45.:39:47.

sack someone because of thehr sexuality and as the honour`ble

:39:48.:39:51.

member referred to, it is a delight that applies to our Armed Forces and

:39:52.:39:57.

police as well. In short periods of time ago, ministers made colplicated

:39:58.:40:02.

decisions about whether to `llow members of the Armed Forces to march

:40:03.:40:06.

in gay pride marches in uniform That seems a bizarre and outdated

:40:07.:40:12.

debate to have had. So, there is a phenomenal sense that we have made

:40:13.:40:16.

enormous achievements, enorlous strides in this country. I `m

:40:17.:40:23.

grateful to the honourable gentleman forgiving way. Does the honourable

:40:24.:40:28.

gentleman agree that much of the progress in the change in attitudes

:40:29.:40:35.

toward, sexual and gay and lesbian people in general in societx has

:40:36.:40:40.

come through the media and the way that gay and lesbian people are

:40:41.:40:46.

portrayed in soap operas and on a date when I understand that This

:40:47.:40:50.

House is about to be joined by a former actress from Coronathon

:40:51.:40:56.

Street, characters like the gay picture in Coronation Street, for

:40:57.:40:59.

example? This has all helped to change the way gay and lesbhan

:41:00.:41:01.

people are perceived. I think the media has played a

:41:02.:41:11.

double edged sword, to be honest. I am quite sick of the fact that the

:41:12.:41:15.

gay character in a crime dr`ma will be the murderer. Historically, it

:41:16.:41:21.

was Larry Grayson and I don't know, John Inman always maintained that

:41:22.:41:26.

his character in you being served wasn't gay. It is true that the

:41:27.:41:30.

campest people I know are all heterosexual men. LAUGHTER

:41:31.:41:40.

But I just said to the Honotrable gentleman, yes it did matter when

:41:41.:41:45.

Michael Cashman's character kissed another man on Eastenders. That was

:41:46.:41:52.

a change making moment, and I think British society has moved on faster

:41:53.:41:58.

maybe because our broadcastdrs in this country, partly, inciddntally,

:41:59.:42:01.

through Mrs Thatcher's reaction of Channel 4, which was given ` role to

:42:02.:42:05.

be edgy and different and all of that, has made it possible for us to

:42:06.:42:12.

make strides very fast. But it doesn't always work like th`t. I'm

:42:13.:42:15.

still mystified why Australha, which seems to me the campest nathon on

:42:16.:42:20.

earth, obsessed with Abba, still doesn't have any form of

:42:21.:42:24.

legalisation of gay relationships. And I very much hope that is going

:42:25.:42:28.

to happen soon, and I come onto one of the reasons why I think that

:42:29.:42:33.

might be in a moment. Also, incidentally, I remember thd rows

:42:34.:42:37.

there were in my time as an MP when the House of Lords refused to make

:42:38.:42:43.

for an equal age of consent and get rid of section 20 eight. We had to

:42:44.:42:47.

use the Parliament act to ptsh that through, and yet when it cale to

:42:48.:42:51.

same-sex marriage, the Housd of Lords, there were more consdrvative

:42:52.:42:53.

members of the House of Lords who voted in favour of it than there

:42:54.:43:01.

were members of the Conserv`tives in the House of Commons who voted for

:43:02.:43:04.

it. I also remember when thdre was a row in this house about whether we

:43:05.:43:08.

should ban discrimination and provision of goods and servhces

:43:09.:43:13.

including adoption services, to gay couples. And I was back that the

:43:14.:43:20.

Catholic Church's argument `t the time was it's fine for an individual

:43:21.:43:26.

gay person to adopt a child but not for a couple. So a settled

:43:27.:43:30.

relationship was in their mhnd a more dangerous place than somebody

:43:31.:43:34.

who was single. And I just didn t understand that logic and the truth

:43:35.:43:37.

of the matter is that many of the most difficult to place kids are

:43:38.:43:41.

placed with gay and lesbian couples. I am glad that in the end this house

:43:42.:43:45.

and the House of Lords wholeheartedly endorse the hdea that

:43:46.:43:49.

there should be no discrimination of provision of goods and servhces But

:43:50.:43:53.

not anything is perfect -- not everything is perfect still,

:43:54.:43:57.

bullying is still going on hn schools and it is through dhfficult

:43:58.:44:00.

to eradicate. I mean the le`ding on many different fronts but one of

:44:01.:44:06.

them is in relation to sexu`lity. The word gay is all too oftdn used

:44:07.:44:12.

in a pejorative sense, and schools find difficulties sometimes dealing

:44:13.:44:17.

with these issues. My husband Jarod is a trustee of a charity c`lled

:44:18.:44:20.

diversity role models, which tries to go into schools and talk through

:44:21.:44:24.

his issues because I still think it is a phenomenal shame that we don't

:44:25.:44:28.

have proper sex and relationship education in every single school in

:44:29.:44:32.

this land, without any schools being able to opt out, because in the end

:44:33.:44:35.

that means that most kids end up having their first sexual

:44:36.:44:41.

experience, delaying it, yot end up cutting the level of teenagd

:44:42.:44:43.

pregnancy and I think it is better for everybody all ran to have proper

:44:44.:44:47.

sex and relationship educathon. But let's just remember, I can't

:44:48.:44:50.

remember whether I'm slightly older or slightly younger than thd

:44:51.:44:55.

Honourable gentleman. Alder. Alder, apparently. LAUGHTER

:44:56.:45:03.

I see he is in as magnanimots a mood as usual! So being slightly older I

:45:04.:45:08.

have even more experience and wisdom to in part than him. LAUGHTDR

:45:09.:45:12.

I just remember one of my vdry first experiences coming to London was

:45:13.:45:17.

meeting a couple called Chrhstopher and tilted. They had lived together

:45:18.:45:23.

since the 1950s. Just after I first met them, they had, one of them had

:45:24.:45:28.

been attacked on the way hole. They were living together. They had a

:45:29.:45:32.

one-bedroom flat. He was attacked on the way home, and had lots of

:45:33.:45:41.

injuries, and they were worried about whether some of those would be

:45:42.:45:48.

permanent injuries. The guy had insisted on coming in the house and

:45:49.:45:52.

had burgled them at knife-point And what was really striking about their

:45:53.:45:58.

story was they could neither go to hospital, nor could they go to

:45:59.:46:02.

police, because they lived hn a one-bedroom flat and there were two

:46:03.:46:05.

people living in it. Under the law of the land, that was a crilinal

:46:06.:46:11.

offence. That was a criminal offence, and they knew they would

:46:12.:46:13.

not get justice, despite wh`t had happened to them. And there are

:46:14.:46:19.

countless thousands of others to whom that applied. When I w`s at

:46:20.:46:24.

university, I remember two of my friends, I at the time was sort of

:46:25.:46:32.

straight. LAUGHTER How does that work? Well, I'm a

:46:33.:46:39.

practising homosexual now. One day I will be quite good at it. L@UGHTER

:46:40.:46:44.

Incidentally, I was also a sort of Conservative at the time, btt we

:46:45.:46:52.

won't go into that! Many, m`ny sins. But the serious point is th`t at the

:46:53.:46:55.

time I remember two of my friends got into trouble with one of the

:46:56.:47:00.

University police, because they had had sex. They were 19-year-olds two

:47:01.:47:05.

men, that was a criminal offence, they were U21, and certainlx a

:47:06.:47:09.

college room is not a private place, but it didn't matter under the law.

:47:10.:47:14.

The two were sent down, nevdr finished the university degrees and

:47:15.:47:21.

they got a criminal convicthon. Until the sexual offences act in

:47:22.:47:25.

2003, importuning was illeg`l in this country. Importuning, ht sounds

:47:26.:47:32.

a strange word, it meant and was by the police for many convicthons

:47:33.:47:37.

right up until the end of this, until 2003, for if you had let

:47:38.:47:42.

somebody in a bar, if a man had met somebody in a bar that they didn't

:47:43.:47:45.

know before they went into ` bar and went home with them. That w`s

:47:46.:47:48.

importuning and you could bd sent down for it until 2003. And often

:47:49.:47:53.

the police when they could not secure a conviction for somdthing

:47:54.:47:58.

else, relied on that as the charge that they brought. Many people hid

:47:59.:48:04.

their sexuality for the simple reason they would terrified they

:48:05.:48:07.

would be sacked or they would not be promoted or advanced. I pay tribute

:48:08.:48:10.

to John Major, I think it w`s him when he was Foreign Secretary, he

:48:11.:48:13.

was the first person who sahd he won't be sacked the just behng gay

:48:14.:48:20.

in the Foreign Office. The number of people who are subject to blackmail

:48:21.:48:24.

in very ordinary jobs. You didn t have to no state secrets. You just

:48:25.:48:28.

had to be a person who was frightened of being exposed for

:48:29.:48:31.

being a criminal, and potentially being sent to prison for it, to be

:48:32.:48:35.

subject to blackmail in your local community. And of course thd number

:48:36.:48:41.

of suicides has remained sttbbornly high. I am going to refer to one a

:48:42.:48:49.

little bit later. Historically, the UK, since its foundation in 180 ,

:48:50.:48:54.

Great Britain 1707, and for that matter England before it, h`s had

:48:55.:48:57.

the toughest laws on homosexuality in the world. Much tougher than the

:48:58.:49:02.

French under the Napoleonic code, which made no reference to `ny of

:49:03.:49:06.

this. Our colonies around the world are actually still are some of the

:49:07.:49:12.

countries with the worst laws on this, our former colonies, hn some

:49:13.:49:18.

cases capital punishment survives. We have made great strides towards

:49:19.:49:22.

equality, but as we all know still live with the legacy of anthquated

:49:23.:49:28.

legislation. And we only nedd to look at certain Commonwealth

:49:29.:49:31.

countries, for example of this, in some cases the anti-gay laws in

:49:32.:49:37.

existence are mirror copies of those which existed here. So would the

:49:38.:49:40.

Honourable member agree with me that if we are to start making

:49:41.:49:44.

reparations for this wrongdoing in addition to pardoning those

:49:45.:49:47.

convicted, we must also seek to influence other members of the

:49:48.:49:51.

Commonwealth where gay men `nd women do not enjoy freedom to be who they

:49:52.:49:56.

are? Yes, I wholeheartedly `gree, and indeed when I was a Fordign

:49:57.:50:00.

Office minister for about two and a half seconds... LAUGHTER

:50:01.:50:07.

That was one of the things, far too long, I know, I did try to push

:50:08.:50:11.

forward some of these issues, and for that matter I think the Foreign

:50:12.:50:13.

Office can play an important role around the world in relation to

:50:14.:50:18.

abuse in countries as diverse as Iran and Russia for that matter I

:50:19.:50:23.

would say to my Australian colleagues, for heaven sake just get

:50:24.:50:26.

your act together, really jtst get your act together. Join the company

:50:27.:50:32.

of all the nations who have changed. I mean, if Argentina can have gay

:50:33.:50:37.

marriage, if Spain, so dominated historically by Catholicism, can

:50:38.:50:40.

have gay marriage, why on e`rth can't Australia, the countrx of

:50:41.:50:46.

Priscilla Queen of the desert? Why on earth can't Australia have gay

:50:47.:50:54.

marriage? What we are debathng any sense comes from one of the worst

:50:55.:50:59.

moment in our history in relation to this, the 1870s and 1880s, where a

:51:00.:51:02.

deliberate hysteria was whipped up around homosexuality in this country

:51:03.:51:08.

by a series of scurrilous and horrible newspapers. And it led to

:51:09.:51:13.

the criminal law Amendment `ct of 1885, which was a serious phece of

:51:14.:51:16.

legislation trying to tackld the problem of underage young women who

:51:17.:51:19.

were being abused in the prostitution trade. Henry L`mont

:51:20.:51:24.

share introduced a clause and just want to read it out because I hope

:51:25.:51:29.

that people will realise quhte how pernicious a piece of legislation it

:51:30.:51:37.

was. "Any Male person who in public in public who commits or is it a

:51:38.:51:42.

party of commission of the fuels or attempt to put the commission by any

:51:43.:51:47.

male person of any act of gross indecency by another male pdrson

:51:48.:51:51.

shall be guilty of a misdemdanour, and being convicted thereof shall be

:51:52.:51:53.

liable at the discretion of the court to be imprisoned for `ny term

:51:54.:51:57.

not exceeding two years, with or without hard labour. In public or in

:51:58.:52:07.

private. Commit boys a parthcle procures or attempts to procure "

:52:08.:52:11.

They could not have made it more wide reaching. The piece of

:52:12.:52:14.

legislation that any court would be able to determine as they fdlt fit.

:52:15.:52:20.

And the line at the end of that hard labour, that is of course

:52:21.:52:23.

partly what ended up killing Oscar Wilde, as is so famous. And that

:52:24.:52:32.

legislation led to thousands and thousands of people being sdnt to

:52:33.:52:35.

prison and doing hard labour. There was a campaign in the 1920s to try

:52:36.:52:40.

and read this country of its scourge. A young lad from the

:52:41.:52:47.

Rhondda, a railway porter c`lled commerce committee was caught by the

:52:48.:52:52.

police outside the theatre. They tried to do him the gross indecency.

:52:53.:52:58.

He was in the end sent to prison for three months and did hard l`bour.

:52:59.:53:03.

The only piece of evidence that they had to advance was that he had his

:53:04.:53:07.

mother's powderpuff in his pocket. The only piece of evidence, and he

:53:08.:53:11.

was sent to prison for thred months. I'm so, so proud that the MP at the

:53:12.:53:17.

time for Rhondda West, who was William John, a minor, he g`ve

:53:18.:53:23.

evidence on behalf of the young man, but the court didn't listen to him.

:53:24.:53:28.

In the 1950s, we came back to it all over again. David Maxwell Fxfe, the

:53:29.:53:33.

Home Secretary. Wonderful in helping draft, wonderful at New England is

:53:34.:53:45.

one of the inquisitors, and the human rights Convention, but he was

:53:46.:53:48.

shockingly homophobic and forced the Home Office and the police began to

:53:49.:53:51.

rid this country of this scourge, as he put it, of homosexuality. One of

:53:52.:53:57.

the terrible ironies is that the first who are in fact fact were

:53:58.:54:02.

conservative members of Parliament. Now I just want to come to the bill

:54:03.:54:08.

itself. I listen to what thd minister said and I just sax to him

:54:09.:54:11.

there is a real problem abott trying to force people to go through

:54:12.:54:17.

another process. There is a real problem, because why on earth would

:54:18.:54:21.

you, if you are now in your 70s or 80s, even though this has bden like

:54:22.:54:28.

a mark, like a brand on you for all of your life, which may havd caused

:54:29.:54:31.

terrible problems in your f`mily life, may have meant that you were

:54:32.:54:34.

never able to do the job th`t you wanted to do in life, may bd meant

:54:35.:54:38.

that you as a teacher were never able to go back to teaching, may be

:54:39.:54:42.

meant that your friends and relatives shunned EU and th`t you

:54:43.:54:46.

felt terribly, terribly ash`med why on earth would you want to write to

:54:47.:54:50.

the Home Secretary and say please can I be pardoned? Why on e`rth

:54:51.:54:53.

would you want to go through a process all over again, why on earth

:54:54.:54:56.

would you want somebody to `nalyse whether or not you were guilty of

:54:57.:55:01.

something at all, way back when And I said to the Minister. He lade a

:55:02.:55:06.

very good argument to say ldt's will work together but the way to work

:55:07.:55:09.

together is to agree to the bill, and then let's will go to committee

:55:10.:55:13.

and if there are things that need to be that right, let's put thdm right.

:55:14.:55:19.

I said to the honourable men becoming the bill is not watertight,

:55:20.:55:23.

let's make it watertight and that is the place to do it in the committee,

:55:24.:55:27.

not by turning our back on this today. And several honourable

:55:28.:55:31.

members have referred to thd fact that this might be called the Turing

:55:32.:55:37.

bill. I don't want to call `t the Turing bill, I want to call it the

:55:38.:55:46.

Cartland McNamara Muirhead Bernays Cazalet bill. At the start of the

:55:47.:55:54.

1930s, there were many MPs `nd politicians in this country, most of

:55:55.:55:58.

them conservative, as it happens, there weren't many Labour MPs in the

:55:59.:56:03.

early 1930s. And many of thdm were convinced that Germany was ` good

:56:04.:56:07.

country, because it had verx liberal attitudes towards homosexuality is.

:56:08.:56:13.

Berlin in the 1930s was a vdry good place for a gay man to live.

:56:14.:56:20.

Jackie McNamara was elected in 935. Another was Ronald Cartland who was

:56:21.:56:37.

elected for Birmingham Kings Norton. They changed their minds whdn they

:56:38.:56:41.

saw what was happening to homosexuals in Germany in the 1 30s.

:56:42.:56:46.

Originally they thought the Versailles Treaty was unfair to

:56:47.:56:50.

Germany, they thought it should be overturned and Germany should be

:56:51.:56:53.

able to re-militarise the Rhineland and should change its futurd. In

:56:54.:57:01.

1936, Jack McNamara visited the Rhineland to support the relote

:57:02.:57:02.

reservation of the Rhineland. When reservation of the Rhineland. When

:57:03.:57:09.

he was there he accidentallx, he said, visited a concentration camp.

:57:10.:57:15.

It was Dakar, the only one who existed at the time. The people in

:57:16.:57:21.

Dachau were dues, the polithcally unwanted and some homosexuals. He

:57:22.:57:24.

sought the violence perpetr`ted against them and when he cale back,

:57:25.:57:29.

he and others became the most sufferers campaigners against

:57:30.:57:37.

appeasement in This House. Jack McNamara, Anthony Meric said he was

:57:38.:57:43.

a junior minister, Victor C`zalet, Harold Nicolson. These were gay or

:57:44.:57:51.

bisexual. They campaigned vociferously in this chamber and

:57:52.:57:56.

around, they campaigned agahnst GB at him. Jack McNamara made ` speech

:57:57.:58:01.

about the bidding and was spat at when he went to a bar and hd never

:58:02.:58:05.

went back. They campaigned `gainst it. Ronald Cartland was probably the

:58:06.:58:13.

most courageous in the Munich debates, saying it was terrhble that

:58:14.:58:17.

we should capitulate and appease Hitler. What did the governlent do?

:58:18.:58:26.

, they called them the glamour boys. They got newspapers to ask why were

:58:27.:58:31.

they still not married, why were the bachelors? They had their tdlephones

:58:32.:58:34.

tapped, they had them followed and when they made speeches thex

:58:35.:58:38.

threatened them with deselection. Yet, they persisted. It is ly very

:58:39.:58:42.

strong belief that had it not been for those gay men he would never

:58:43.:58:48.

have faced down Hitler and we would not enjoy today the freedoms that we

:58:49.:58:53.

do. I mention some of the n`mes because they have got Shields up in

:58:54.:59:01.

the chamber. Jack McNamara desperately wanted to fight in the

:59:02.:59:04.

Second World War because he said I have argued for this war, I should

:59:05.:59:10.

fight. Churchill didn't want to He wanted, although he had been in the

:59:11.:59:14.

Army before, he wanted him to serve in some capacity on home front and

:59:15.:59:20.

not overseas. He got his mother juridically Churchill month after

:59:21.:59:23.

month after month until he was given a posting in the Adriatic and he

:59:24.:59:31.

sought service. He was killdd when the Germans bombarded him and his

:59:32.:59:37.

troops in Italy. Ronald Cartland was disabled and he failed his first

:59:38.:59:41.

medical test but he managed to persuade someone to draft another

:59:42.:59:48.

one and he was drafted and he was sent to France in early 1940. He and

:59:49.:59:58.

his troops were holding the four in the triangle between Calais and

:59:59.:00:03.

Dunkirk. He was one of the last people out of the Fort. Thex kept on

:00:04.:00:05.

for four more days than thex should for four more days than thex should

:00:06.:00:09.

have done for their protecthon so thousands more British troops could

:00:10.:00:13.

escape from Dunkirk and Cal`is. It is one of the few terms of the

:00:14.:00:16.

commando officer in the British Armed Forces said every man for

:00:17.:00:21.

himself as they left. He was killed on the route back to Dunkirk.

:00:22.:00:28.

Anthony Muirhead, his plaqud is up there. He committed suicide just

:00:29.:00:33.

after the war started. It is often said he committed suicide bdcause he

:00:34.:00:38.

wasn't able to fight. I suspect it was because the newspapers were

:00:39.:00:43.

pursuing him about his priv`te life. Robert Bernays, the Liberal MP for

:00:44.:00:47.

Bristol North, he was killed in a plane crash over the Adriathc.

:00:48.:00:53.

Again, in military service. Victor Cazalet died in an air crash. He

:00:54.:00:58.

became a close friend of thd free polls and died in an air cr`sh. I

:00:59.:01:07.

just say that we as a country go not just to those people, but to so many

:01:08.:01:15.

other men something that fedls like an apology to stop that really says

:01:16.:01:22.

I am sorry we got this wrong. You were brave, courageous men. We got

:01:23.:01:26.

it wrong, you were right. Wd owe you a debt of gratitude. It is `

:01:27.:01:36.

pleasure to follow the honotrable member. As a former strict

:01:37.:01:41.

Conservative we appear to h`ve been on how the journey together. No one

:01:42.:01:53.

can doubt from the QC made from Bill, on the narrow point hd made

:01:54.:01:57.

about the Bill, I entirely `gree with them and want to come back to

:01:58.:02:02.

that in the course of my own remarks. The emotion with which he

:02:03.:02:06.

presented his case was more than exemplified by the honourable member

:02:07.:02:10.

for East Dunbartonshire whose speech was his usual brilliant itsdlf as

:02:11.:02:14.

one would expect. It would debating champion when I first ran across as

:02:15.:02:19.

president of the Durham Uni society a horribly long time ago. It was but

:02:20.:02:28.

powerful and emotional and he, like the honourable member for the

:02:29.:02:31.

Rhondda, introduced the widdr background to this and why this

:02:32.:02:38.

matters so much. Particularly to the LGBT community. Ten to the narrow

:02:39.:02:44.

issue of the Bill, which I will confine my remarks to. The royal

:02:45.:02:50.

pardon given to Doctor Alan Turing in December 2013 was widely welcomed

:02:51.:02:55.

as helping to put right the injustices suffered by being

:02:56.:02:59.

convicted for gross indecency in 1952 and the subsequent physical and

:03:00.:03:03.

emotional damage insured thd chemical castration then le`ding to

:03:04.:03:09.

his suicide. It is true that this posthumous pardon change thd

:03:10.:03:12.

precedent for the exercise of the royal prerogative of mercy. As the

:03:13.:03:19.

government of the day then stated, a pardon is only granted when the

:03:20.:03:23.

person is innocent of the offence and where a request has been made by

:03:24.:03:27.

someone with a vested interdst such as a family member. Uniquelx, on

:03:28.:03:32.

this occasion, a pardon has been issued without either requirement

:03:33.:03:35.

being met, reflecting the exceptional nature of Alan Turing's

:03:36.:03:42.

achievements. Touring the Alan Turing was, to which we shotld

:03:43.:03:47.

continue to pay tribute, thd wrongs done to thousands of gay men which

:03:48.:03:52.

we recognise today as human rights abuses are no less in need of being

:03:53.:03:58.

corrected. The hurt and pain and injustice is no different for all

:03:59.:04:04.

these people. The exception holiday of Alan Turing's pardon can not

:04:05.:04:11.

hold. As a Justice minister, holding my honourable friend 's

:04:12.:04:16.

responsibilities some five xears ago, I held the government line

:04:17.:04:23.

against granting a pardon to Alan Turing in a debate in Westmhnster

:04:24.:04:30.

Hall and I made the wider point By that time the government believed it

:04:31.:04:36.

had dealt with the practical issues around it is regards in the

:04:37.:04:49.

protection of freedom Act in 20 2. On the pardon point, I been said, to

:04:50.:04:54.

grant him, Alan Turing, a p`rdon under the royal prerogative would

:04:55.:04:58.

change the bases on which stch pardons are normally given. If Alan

:04:59.:05:02.

Turing were pardoned, there would be tens of thousands of other people in

:05:03.:05:06.

respect of whom demands for like treatment could be made. Those

:05:07.:05:11.

persons include about 16,000 living individuals with convictions from

:05:12.:05:15.

sexuality and many times th`t number of deceased victims. This Bhll would

:05:16.:05:22.

simply fulfil that the logic of the arguments I presented in 2002 and in

:05:23.:05:28.

doing so make the same gesttre on the part of society today through an

:05:29.:05:32.

Act of Parliament to the thousands of men deserving of it. The

:05:33.:05:39.

government announced yesterday that it would support an amendment to the

:05:40.:05:44.

protection of freedoms Act 2012 through amendment to the policing

:05:45.:05:48.

and crime Bill and this would extend a pardon to those, for the living,

:05:49.:05:53.

in cases where offences havd been deleted through the disregard

:05:54.:05:58.

process. What a welcome step, this approach ties the pardon to the

:05:59.:06:02.

process of disregarding convictions from criminal records which already

:06:03.:06:06.

exist and would be extended by clause three of this Bill. There

:06:07.:06:11.

need not be such a link. Thd government can be more generous It

:06:12.:06:21.

can make a distinction betwden the powerful, symbolic effect of the

:06:22.:06:26.

general pardon to men, some live, many dead and the mechanism by which

:06:27.:06:30.

individuals can benefit frol the practical effects of a pardon

:06:31.:06:35.

through the disregard process. This, therefore, would ensure that the

:06:36.:06:39.

criminal offences which rem`in criminal offences are not included

:06:40.:06:43.

in any practical consequencds of this pardon. However, this

:06:44.:06:48.

discussion, can and should be a matter for committed discussion

:06:49.:06:53.

Ministers will present a different view and different concerns, but I

:06:54.:06:58.

believe that discussion shotld be had at the committee stage of this

:06:59.:07:02.

Bill and if the government hs not satisfied with the discussion in

:07:03.:07:06.

committee then, of course, the Bill will not make progress toward being

:07:07.:07:11.

an actor. I assume the sponsor of the Bill is pleased that thd

:07:12.:07:15.

government has at least movdd some of the way in its proposal `nd even

:07:16.:07:21.

if it were not to move further, I would argue that this Bill hs a

:07:22.:07:26.

better vehicle for the Sharkey amendment than a rather anonymous

:07:27.:07:30.

amendment within the latest policing and crime Bill which rule of the

:07:31.:07:36.

statute book year after year and wouldn't have the symbolic dffect

:07:37.:07:40.

that this Act of Parliament would have. This is the point, I believe,

:07:41.:07:47.

this Bill and our debate is at least as much about symbolic resthtution

:07:48.:07:53.

and a rating of wrongs as of process. The measures adoptdd,

:07:54.:07:56.

whether the narrower version currently favoured by the

:07:57.:08:00.

government, or the product `pproach in this Bill as it is today, would

:08:01.:08:07.

stand a much better as a sylbol in a stand alone Act and I hope ` way can

:08:08.:08:14.

be found to use the honourable member for East Dunbartonshhre's

:08:15.:08:17.

Bill as the vehicle by which we can make this clear statement of

:08:18.:08:21.

two-day's values of two-day's parliament. It is always a pleasure

:08:22.:08:33.

to star in another episode of carry on up the Commons which is what it

:08:34.:08:37.

has been like in here this lorning. What a pleasure it is to follow my

:08:38.:08:41.

honourable friend from East Dunbartonshire. Don't call them that

:08:42.:08:46.

to about the conventions of the House, I say it because he hs both

:08:47.:08:50.

honourable and a true friend. What a piece of legislation he has brought

:08:51.:08:55.

to the House. The first SNP Private members Bill. Historic moment.

:08:56.:09:01.

Although he doesn't wish to present it as such and I would agred with

:09:02.:09:09.

that. In his remarks he tells of his time with Edwina Currie in

:09:10.:09:14.

Amsterdam. I would urge all members when you get a chance outset of this

:09:15.:09:18.

chamber to ask about the store that is disappearing up the stairs. From

:09:19.:09:23.

a room with very few lights I seem to remember him telling it. I will

:09:24.:09:29.

leave them to develop that further. When he was called to introduce the

:09:30.:09:33.

Bill, top of the ballot, I confessed to just a tiny bit of seethhng

:09:34.:09:40.

jealousy on that morning. As I opened my Twitter account on my iPod

:09:41.:09:46.

to see him number one on thd ballot, because this is the Bill, h`d it

:09:47.:09:50.

been myself, that I would whsh to have introduced and we had several

:09:51.:09:54.

conversations about different ideas that he had and this was thd one he

:09:55.:10:01.

chose to bring to the House. I think he is to be enormously congratulated

:10:02.:10:07.

for it. What a forensic spedch from the honourable gentleman from the

:10:08.:10:13.

Rhondda. Historical. Referrhng to the shields of previous honourable

:10:14.:10:19.

members in This House. He is to be thanked because we are bettdr

:10:20.:10:24.

informed as a result of his remarks. Mr Deputy Speaker, I want to share

:10:25.:10:28.

one or two stories from constituents of mine who I won't name. One of

:10:29.:10:36.

them is actually quite well known in left-wing circles in Scottish

:10:37.:10:41.

politics. It concerns when there was a time when there was no LGBT

:10:42.:10:47.

centres, no gay bars, the places the gay community could go and socialise

:10:48.:10:53.

so it often meant they had to do so at

:10:54.:11:00.

And he told me a story about one flat in particular in Rutherford,

:11:01.:11:08.

one flat that became the pl`ce to go to. The honourable member for

:11:09.:11:14.

Rutherford claimed she was hn there from a sedentary position. This was

:11:15.:11:18.

in the 1960s, Mr Deputy Spe`ker and the neighbours at the time had

:11:19.:11:21.

cottoned on to the fact that there were these devious homosexu`l men

:11:22.:11:27.

and women having a party. I should break it to some people that when we

:11:28.:11:32.

homosexuals have a party, it's just like any other party, only luch more

:11:33.:11:37.

fun. LAUGHTER And at this party, there wotld be

:11:38.:11:43.

music, laughter, gossip, dancing, singing, perhaps even a wee drink or

:11:44.:11:48.

two. And when the neighbours had cottoned on that this flat was full

:11:49.:11:51.

of homosexuals, they would call the police. And the police would visit

:11:52.:12:00.

the flat, no crime having bden committed, no anti-social bdhaviour,

:12:01.:12:05.

the police would visit the flat and hit the names and addresses of every

:12:06.:12:08.

person there, asking why thdy were there, intimidating them. And my

:12:09.:12:16.

constituent decided, when hd saw the police were coming up the stairs,

:12:17.:12:19.

that he wasn't going to stax in the room but he couldn't exactlx leave

:12:20.:12:22.

the front door, so he deciddd to hang out the window from thd second

:12:23.:12:31.

story of a Glasgow tenement, putting himself in clear danger of not just

:12:32.:12:35.

injuring himself but perhaps losing his life. Until his arms cotld take

:12:36.:12:40.

no further, he crawled into the window and to give a statemdnt to

:12:41.:12:47.

the police. Such is the ingdnuity of good Glaswegians, they thought

:12:48.:12:50.

themselves should this ever happen again, we need to have a pl`n, we

:12:51.:12:54.

need to have a plan if the police turn up again, so they decided, I

:12:55.:13:01.

would say borrow rather than steel, the choir books from the Rutherford

:13:02.:13:06.

Parish church so that if thd police were to come back, the music could

:13:07.:13:10.

be switched off, the drink could be put away, and all they would be

:13:11.:13:14.

confronted with would be thd Rutherford Parish church choir

:13:15.:13:21.

singing come by and whatever other hymns they fancy. You haven't been

:13:22.:13:27.

to church for a while, have you LAUGHTER

:13:28.:13:32.

I should say that God is always surprised to see me when I `ttend

:13:33.:13:39.

prayers in this house. And, Mr Deputy Speaker, although we laugh,

:13:40.:13:44.

that is what people were gohng through, and much, much worse has

:13:45.:13:49.

been brought to the house bx other members. And things moved on. Things

:13:50.:13:57.

have moved on remarkably. Btt even through the 1980s, friends of mine

:13:58.:14:04.

talk about going to Pride p`rades in London, where the streets would be

:14:05.:14:08.

lined with police as though it were some kind of violent protest they

:14:09.:14:18.

were expecting. And in a magnificent act of defiance, a friend of mine

:14:19.:14:21.

tied a pink balloon to the strap of his bag so that as he walked on his

:14:22.:14:27.

first gay pride march, it would bounce off the noses of the police

:14:28.:14:31.

officers as he marched down the street. And look at us now. Out

:14:32.:14:39.

proud. There isn't a member certainly on these benches, that

:14:40.:14:41.

isn't desperate to be assochated with the progress, as far as gay

:14:42.:14:48.

rights is concerned. It is now very popular to be in favour of dquality

:14:49.:14:53.

but it didn't used to be popular. What the bill six to do, thd

:14:54.:14:58.

government is not doing this as a favour, not doing the peopld in

:14:59.:15:03.

favour but doing this. The full marriage wasn't a favour. The

:15:04.:15:07.

quality of adoption rights was not a favour. It is about correcthng our

:15:08.:15:14.

mistakes of the past. Mr Deputy Speaker, imagine you are a xoung

:15:15.:15:20.

person, thinking of coming out, and at six o'clock U-turn on yotr iPad,

:15:21.:15:26.

and across Europe twitter thmeline comes the story of how todax's vote

:15:27.:15:31.

goes. Imagine the house declined the opportunity to pass this bill, how

:15:32.:15:36.

would that make you feel, what signal does it send to young people

:15:37.:15:40.

across this country and arotnd the world, if we decline to pass this

:15:41.:15:51.

bill just now? One young man to another. A gay man to a str`ight

:15:52.:15:57.

man. LAUGHTER Who's who? Especially the colour

:15:58.:16:05.

scheme. The point my honour`ble friend was making is the message

:16:06.:16:08.

coming from some and other benches, the fact that living homosexuals

:16:09.:16:14.

could still be classed as a risk of being a paedophile, and that is the

:16:15.:16:18.

message that if we reject this bill and make homosexuals go through the

:16:19.:16:24.

disregard process. He makes a very good point. I should clarifx Mr

:16:25.:16:30.

Deputy Speaker and I am a g`y man. I would never have that clash of a

:16:31.:16:37.

yellow LAN yard and a purpld tie! LAUGHTER

:16:38.:16:44.

Mr Deputy Speaker, I wish to come to a conclusion. The people who went

:16:45.:17:00.

through, the 16,000 people that the chair of the foreign affairs select

:17:01.:17:04.

committee mentions, these are the Giants on whose shoulders wd stand,

:17:05.:17:12.

and many, many others. And what an opportunity we have today to do the

:17:13.:17:16.

right thing. And symbolism hs important in this. Rather than some

:17:17.:17:22.

anonymous technical amendment in that place down there, which is even

:17:23.:17:27.

more camp than this place down here, rather than that, a bill is

:17:28.:17:31.

important, and where there `re concerns, genuine or otherwhse, it

:17:32.:17:35.

has to be said, then the colmittee is the place to strengthen the bill.

:17:36.:17:41.

Otherwise what is this placd for? A question I find myself asking quite

:17:42.:17:48.

a lot actually. Mr Deputy Speaker, what I think we all want today is

:17:49.:17:54.

for young people to read about this debate, watch this debate, `nd see

:17:55.:18:00.

it pass, a strong and posithve message, that it is indeed OK to be

:18:01.:18:09.

gay. Nick Herbert. Thank yot very much Mr Deputy Speaker, I understand

:18:10.:18:13.

that an urgent question may be tabled at 11 o'clock so I whll

:18:14.:18:18.

endeavour to be brief so th`t my remarks don't become truncated. What

:18:19.:18:22.

I would first of all like to do is to congratulate the honourable

:18:23.:18:24.

member for East Dumbartonshhre for bringing forward this measure, and

:18:25.:18:28.

for the remarks he made, and for his excellent speech in support of his

:18:29.:18:37.

bill. And the welcome what he has sought to do. It seems to md that

:18:38.:18:43.

there is a general agreement in this house that great injustice was done

:18:44.:18:50.

by laws which have since bedn repealed to gay men in the past and

:18:51.:18:56.

that there is a great deal, a huge measure of regret for that

:18:57.:19:00.

injustice, and a recognition that there are people who are sthll alive

:19:01.:19:03.

who have suffered as a consdquence of that injustice. Further to that,

:19:04.:19:09.

I think that there is a bro`d agreement, though it might not be

:19:10.:19:14.

unanimous agreement, that it is right that not only should that

:19:15.:19:21.

legislation have been repealed, in many cases some time ago, btt that

:19:22.:19:27.

this house and the government should go further, and should extend a

:19:28.:19:34.

pardon to those who were convicted of offences that we now belheve

:19:35.:19:37.

should not have been crimin`l offences, because of the enormous

:19:38.:19:44.

injustice that was done to them There is, it seems to me, no

:19:45.:19:47.

disagreement between the benches opposite government about that

:19:48.:19:53.

either. Nor with many of us on this side of the house who believe that

:19:54.:19:57.

it is right in principle th`t such a pardon should be extended. H recall

:19:58.:20:04.

being a minister in the Minhstry of Justice, along with my friend, the

:20:05.:20:07.

member for Reigate at the thme when we were discussing the inithal

:20:08.:20:13.

proposal that a specific pardon should be granted to Alan Ttring,

:20:14.:20:18.

and we had those discussions with my right honourable member, thd member

:20:19.:20:22.

for Rushcliffe, who was then the Justice Secretary. One can hardly

:20:23.:20:26.

imagine a more humane or liberal member of Parliament than mx right

:20:27.:20:34.

honourable friend, but he h`d then concerns about what the further

:20:35.:20:38.

application of the principld that we might be about to embark on would

:20:39.:20:42.

be. I think those were legitimate concerns, and I think there is a

:20:43.:20:46.

legitimate debate about the extent to which it is possible to dmbark on

:20:47.:20:51.

a process of revisionism, stch that we find ourselves in a position of

:20:52.:20:56.

extending a general apology or pardon for all sorts of criles that

:20:57.:21:03.

may have been committed a while ago, and the legislation that was enacted

:21:04.:21:06.

before our time. But I think that honourable members on both sides of

:21:07.:21:14.

the house have spoken with passion about why it is important that we

:21:15.:21:20.

should take an attitude that says that there should be a sign`l or an

:21:21.:21:26.

expression of regret. It is clearly important for the living th`t the

:21:27.:21:30.

state recognises the injusthce that was done. But it is important to a

:21:31.:21:38.

Brodic unity, and the honourable member for Rhondda spoke powerfully

:21:39.:21:41.

about that the honourable mdmber for Glasgow too. It is important,

:21:42.:21:47.

because in spite of the near completion of the legislative agenda

:21:48.:21:53.

in this country at least, to ensure full equality for gay peopld, there

:21:54.:22:01.

is still discrimination in our society, and in particular hn our

:22:02.:22:04.

schools. There are young people who face prejudice and concern `bout the

:22:05.:22:10.

fact that they may not be accepted in our society. And therefore the

:22:11.:22:15.

signals which this house sends, which the government sends, are

:22:16.:22:18.

immensely important. Now I would like to make an additional point,

:22:19.:22:23.

which is that there is also the question of the signal we sdnd more

:22:24.:22:28.

widely to the rest of the world I'm honoured to be the elected chairman

:22:29.:22:30.

of the all-party Parliament`ry group on global LGBT writes, and the

:22:31.:22:36.

honourable gentleman to Glasgow South is an officer of that group

:22:37.:22:42.

too. And we are focused on the appalling breaches of human rights

:22:43.:22:47.

which are increasingly being perpetrated in other countrhes

:22:48.:22:50.

around the world, where acttally human rights are going backwards and

:22:51.:22:53.

not forwards, where gay people are living and working in fear hn

:22:54.:22:58.

countries for instance in stb Saharan Africa, in Russia and other

:22:59.:23:04.

countries in Eastern Europe, and where progress needs to be lade to

:23:05.:23:10.

secure equality and respect for human rights. And one of thd things

:23:11.:23:15.

that we are often told, and indeed those people who are victimhsed by

:23:16.:23:21.

these laws are often told is that these are laws that historically

:23:22.:23:27.

over their origin to this place To laws, which were fashioned `nd

:23:28.:23:32.

promoted eye this Parliament as part of our empire. I give way to the

:23:33.:23:38.

honourable lady. But is that not why it is so utterly important that this

:23:39.:23:43.

bill goes through in its own right, to send out that message and not

:23:44.:23:49.

just a few lines of an amendment? The honourable lady has anthcipated

:23:50.:23:54.

what I am about to say. I w`s explaining that I believe it is

:23:55.:23:59.

important that this house sdnds the right signal with a general pardon,

:24:00.:24:06.

because of the effect on thd living, because of those to whom an

:24:07.:24:09.

injustice has been done, because of the way in which young people in

:24:10.:24:13.

particular may anticipate how they will be treated, and becausd of the

:24:14.:24:18.

signal that we may send globally about the importance of standing up

:24:19.:24:21.

for human rights. Of course I give way to the Minister. I thank the

:24:22.:24:26.

honourable member forgiving way the amendment that will be tabldd is not

:24:27.:24:30.

just a few lines in a bill. Lord Sharkey is one of the most prominent

:24:31.:24:36.

campaigners on this issue, has been campaigning for a long time, and the

:24:37.:24:40.

announcement yesterday has `lready garnered global headlines and will

:24:41.:24:45.

continue to do so when the `mendment has passed. I had said I hope to

:24:46.:24:52.

complete my remarks by 11 o'clock and I can now see that is not going

:24:53.:24:59.

to be possible, because what I want to say about the government's

:25:00.:25:03.

position and position of my honourable friend is I think

:25:04.:25:07.

important, and it is import`nt that we get a resolution to this matter.

:25:08.:25:13.

Whatever the history of the last few days, it seems to me, and this was

:25:14.:25:16.

the point I was trying to m`ke at the beginning of my remarks, that

:25:17.:25:24.

there is a broad agreement `bout the necessity of this measure, the value

:25:25.:25:27.

of it, and the importance of proceeding. And indeed therd is a

:25:28.:25:30.

Conservative manifesto commhtment to do so. And after I resume, `s I hope

:25:31.:25:36.

Mr Deputy Speaker I will be able to do, I would like to explain why I

:25:37.:25:39.

therefore believe the bill should be allowed through to a second reading.

:25:40.:25:46.

Order, order, we are now gohng to come to the urgent question from

:25:47.:25:53.

Philip Davies. I will ask the Immigration Minister who will make a

:25:54.:25:58.

statement on what age checks will be carried out on child refugeds to

:25:59.:25:59.

ensure that they are childrdn. I welcome this opportunity to put on

:26:00.:26:13.

record at the government position. We work closely with French

:26:14.:26:15.

authorities to ensure the c`ses applying to come to the UK pualify

:26:16.:26:22.

under Dublin. This includes an age assessment were necessary. @ll

:26:23.:26:26.

individuals are referred to the UK authorities by the French

:26:27.:26:32.

authorities, they are then interviewed by French and UK

:26:33.:26:36.

officials. Were credible documentary evidence of age is not available and

:26:37.:26:41.

where these children have fled war and persecution so there ard no

:26:42.:26:46.

definitive documentary provds, we will use criteria including physical

:26:47.:26:50.

appearance and demeanour to assess age as part of the interview

:26:51.:26:55.

process. But officials are working in difficult circumstances hn Calais

:26:56.:27:00.

to ensure vulnerable childrdn are safeguarded. There has been

:27:01.:27:03.

significant media coverage over the last week questioning the appearance

:27:04.:27:07.

of those admitted to the UK. I think we would all agree that teenagers

:27:08.:27:14.

appearances are very widely and all agencies working in these

:27:15.:27:16.

circumstances have the safety and welfare of young people in lind

:27:17.:27:21.

This week has also reopened the old debate about the value of ddntal

:27:22.:27:25.

x-rays at medical tests to determine the age of an individual. Is a good

:27:26.:27:30.

different number of experts have spoken out against such checks. The

:27:31.:27:34.

British dental Association has described them as inaccuratd,

:27:35.:27:39.

inappropriate and unethical. The Royal College of paediatrichans said

:27:40.:27:42.

the margin of error can somdtimes be as much as five years either side of

:27:43.:27:48.

medical tests. Doctors of the world have called the idea unethical and

:27:49.:27:55.

unnecessary. That is why thd Home Office does not use dental x-rays to

:27:56.:27:58.

confront age of those seeking asylum. Legally cannot forcd anyone

:27:59.:28:03.

to undergo such a check. Th`t is what officials are trained to assess

:28:04.:28:06.

age and I want to be clear, where we believe someone is clearly over a

:28:07.:28:12.

pain they will be refused. The information I have today suggests

:28:13.:28:16.

that around 10% of cases referred to as on the spaces are being refused

:28:17.:28:21.

in France. We have made significant progress to bring to the UK bus

:28:22.:28:25.

children with family members. We are determined to get those children

:28:26.:28:29.

here, but I call on all members of the House, the media and thd public

:28:30.:28:32.

to respect the privacy of those vulnerable young people. I `m

:28:33.:28:39.

grateful to the Minister for whom I have a great deal of respect and

:28:40.:28:44.

admiration. Surely he cannot find it necessary to explain why it is

:28:45.:28:49.

important that Chad refugees are actually children. We agreed to

:28:50.:28:52.

check in Chad refugees and surely it is not too much to ask the

:28:53.:28:55.

government to ensure that they are children. Clearly this is not the

:28:56.:29:01.

case. People only have two CD pictures of the so-called child

:29:02.:29:05.

refugees to say that many of them are not children. The Home Office

:29:06.:29:12.

admitted that two thirds of people claiming to be child refugeds are

:29:13.:29:18.

shown to be not children. Even the charities have had to accept this,

:29:19.:29:30.

trying to explain. A large number of my constituents have contacted me to

:29:31.:29:36.

say how angry they are that we are being taken for the rulers, taken

:29:37.:29:41.

for a ride and our generosity is being abused. Does the Minister not

:29:42.:29:45.

understand that unless a grhp is taken over this but it will do

:29:46.:29:49.

irreparable damage to public confidence in the asylum system The

:29:50.:29:53.

Minister said that to carry out dental checks would not onlx be

:29:54.:29:58.

unethical but also unreliable. It actually says on the governlent

:29:59.:30:03.

website under the UK visas `nd immigration section on assessing

:30:04.:30:08.

age, it has a section on dental age assessments or x-ray reports. It

:30:09.:30:13.

says, in some instances, applicants will submit reports from dental

:30:14.:30:17.

consultants based on a detahled report of dental development. The

:30:18.:30:21.

margin of error indeterminate age is approximately plus or -2 ye`rs. They

:30:22.:30:26.

put The Royal College of paddiatrics and child health. It says this means

:30:27.:30:33.

there will be cases where stch reports should be given considerable

:30:34.:30:38.

weight, for example, becausd the Clinton age is within the possible

:30:39.:30:42.

range. The Home Office are `lready sent on their website that dental

:30:43.:30:46.

checks should be given conshderable weight. How on earth can thdy be

:30:47.:30:58.

unreliable on an ethical st`ndard. What checks are being made by the

:30:59.:31:03.

government and if somebody claims to be 14 did we just accept it and send

:31:04.:31:08.

them to a local school with all the obvious safeguarding issues that

:31:09.:31:11.

would be involved if they wdre actually adults? The governlent owes

:31:12.:31:15.

the British public and genuhne child refugees a promise to get a grip on

:31:16.:31:23.

this particular situation. Ly honourable friend needs to be aware

:31:24.:31:28.

that both the Dublin regulation and section 67 of the immigration Act

:31:29.:31:36.

2016 defines children as those under the age of 18. Indeed, a large

:31:37.:31:40.

number of those in the camps are both male and 16 or 17 years old. We

:31:41.:31:46.

have never tried to mislead anyone of that particular fact. Thd

:31:47.:31:51.

criteria used at this stage for the Dublin children is those with family

:31:52.:31:55.

connections in the UK and those are our priority. Those are the ones

:31:56.:31:59.

being taught across this wedk. For the children will be put across

:32:00.:32:03.

Some of the assessment will enable further work to be done, including

:32:04.:32:08.

fingerprinting. If there ard cases where the person has been brought to

:32:09.:32:12.

the attention of the Europe`n immigration authorities werd applied

:32:13.:32:15.

for a visa somewhere in the world to come to the UK will have further

:32:16.:32:20.

information. Can I point out, the age issue can arise because of Home

:32:21.:32:26.

Office concerns about the claimed age where because of the individual

:32:27.:32:29.

does not accept the assessmdnt process. Word this. There whll be a

:32:30.:32:35.

reference to a children's sdrvices Department for an age assessment.

:32:36.:32:38.

They will be treated as a child by the outcome is worded. Local

:32:39.:32:43.

authorities have a statutorx duty to ensure and promote the welf`re of

:32:44.:32:48.

children under section 11 of the Children Act 2000 for regardless of

:32:49.:32:51.

their immigration status or nationality. This safeguards of the

:32:52.:32:55.

individual is required to undergo an age assessment and super chhldren in

:32:56.:32:58.

the current population from the presence of an adult being placed in

:32:59.:33:04.

the symbolism accommodation. I want to start by welcoming refugdes who

:33:05.:33:09.

have entered Britain in last few days to their new home. I hope that

:33:10.:33:15.

our country will provide thdm with a safe space which enables thdm to put

:33:16.:33:20.

behind them the dramas and the difficulties they have faced.

:33:21.:33:26.

Welcome to Britain. The govdrnment committed to taking unaccompanied

:33:27.:33:30.

child refugees in May. The Home Office have had five months to

:33:31.:33:35.

assess the age of the young people come up five months in which

:33:36.:33:39.

refugees have had to live their lives in limbo and conditions which

:33:40.:33:43.

none of us with like to livd in and certainly not have our children live

:33:44.:33:48.

in. I am sure the Minister can assure the House that this delay is

:33:49.:33:51.

a result of the Home Office carefully assessing the age of young

:33:52.:34:00.

people we are granting to. Durope all have warned that at least 1 ,000

:34:01.:34:05.

unaccompanied child refugees have gone missing since entering Europe

:34:06.:34:09.

after fleeing the most terrhble political situation in Syri` and

:34:10.:34:14.

elsewhere in North Africa and the Middle East. Citizens UK thhnk there

:34:15.:34:20.

are at least 54 unaccompanidd girls, mainly Eritrean, in the calorie

:34:21.:34:26.

count and they are eligible to enter under the dubs amendment. These are

:34:27.:34:30.

children who have had their home, their parents, their entire lives

:34:31.:34:35.

taken away from them and thdy are in real danger. Does the Minister agree

:34:36.:34:45.

with me that our resolve to give sanctuary and protection to

:34:46.:34:46.

unaccompanied child refugees must remain undiminished, we cannot

:34:47.:34:49.

succumb to compassion fatigte? I know some members opposite of

:34:50.:34:53.

conflict dental checks to ddtermine the age of children coming over but

:34:54.:34:57.

the Journal of forensic scidnce found that when it comes to

:34:58.:35:01.

determine if someone is aged between 17 and 19 years of age, dental

:35:02.:35:07.

checks are wrong up to 50% of the time. 50% of the time. The British

:35:08.:35:13.

dental Association, whose mdmbers would presumably have to carry out

:35:14.:35:17.

these checks, has said they would be inappropriate and unethical. Does

:35:18.:35:21.

the Minister agree with me that calling for dental checks is an

:35:22.:35:26.

unworkable red herring? I al pleased that the government are comlitted to

:35:27.:35:32.

helping unaccompanied child refugees and 20,000 Syrian refugees by 2 20,

:35:33.:35:36.

although given the scale of the refugee crisis, we can and should do

:35:37.:35:42.

more. There will be challenges along the way, things will not go

:35:43.:35:46.

perfectly, but helping people in dire need and they are is the right

:35:47.:35:53.

thing to do. When we meet bombs in the road in this place and hn other

:35:54.:35:57.

positions of power, we should keep it calm head and continue to offer a

:35:58.:36:02.

welcoming embrace to those who are fleeing the most desperate of

:36:03.:36:10.

circumstances. The points m`de by the honourable lady oppositd

:36:11.:36:14.

encapsulate the vast majority of the United Kingdom's view about the

:36:15.:36:18.

compassion we need and a legal responsibility to step up to the

:36:19.:36:22.

mark to ensure that vulnerable children in these camps are looked

:36:23.:36:27.

after as best as possible. Ht is in the joint interests of the Tnited

:36:28.:36:30.

Kingdom and the French republic that this cup is removed and in the

:36:31.:36:35.

interest of the people in that camp. I must make it clear that nobody

:36:36.:36:38.

needs to be in that camp. The French have facilities for people who can

:36:39.:36:42.

leave the camp and large nulbers have left the camp. I have covered

:36:43.:36:48.

the point on the dental checks. One additional point I would make and it

:36:49.:36:52.

is something the Milton -- the media have failed to grasp, we have two

:36:53.:36:57.

distinct categories of children We have the Dublin three children, they

:36:58.:37:02.

qualify because they have ftn here. We have prioritised them and then we

:37:03.:37:07.

have children who qualify under the dubs amendment. That is a criteria

:37:08.:37:11.

of where their needs will bd best served and I can assure the House

:37:12.:37:14.

that we will prioritise the most vulnerable. The undertakings, those

:37:15.:37:19.

who are vulnerable for other reasons, to ensure that will happen.

:37:20.:37:24.

They will not process as quhckly. We need to ensure they are safd and

:37:25.:37:29.

ensure we live up to the colmitments this government has made whdn it

:37:30.:37:36.

accepted the dubs amendment. My constituents are very worridd about

:37:37.:37:39.

migrant children. Can buy honourable friend confirm that the Homd Office

:37:40.:37:44.

is working closely with NGOs and the local authorities to identify and

:37:45.:37:51.

resettle children in Cali? The role of NGOs are vital because m`ny of

:37:52.:37:55.

those in the camps don't few people in uniform or people in authority in

:37:56.:38:01.

the same way we do. Those charities, the British Red Cross, who have

:38:02.:38:09.

helped bring children across. They have stepped up to the mark in

:38:10.:38:12.

providing accommodation for children before they are moved on. NGOs are

:38:13.:38:17.

vital and we appreciate the efforts they are making. Working with the UK

:38:18.:38:21.

and French authorities to n`ture with discharge obligations. The Home

:38:22.:38:27.

Office is to be commended for finally moving to process children

:38:28.:38:34.

from the Calle camps, coverdd by our legal obligations. I am verx

:38:35.:38:40.

grateful to the Home Secret`ry for giving me a full update on what has

:38:41.:38:44.

been happening this week and I am proud that many of these chhldren

:38:45.:38:49.

coming from Calais will be welcomed in Scotland and I can assurd the

:38:50.:38:52.

House they will be most welcome there. An update on the numbers

:38:53.:39:00.

being processed would be appreciated and I wonder if the Minister can

:39:01.:39:03.

confirm that will be made available? I have been to these camps `t Calais

:39:04.:39:10.

and I have witnessed the inhumane conditions. To impose invashve

:39:11.:39:15.

treatment now would be a dereliction of UK Government moral duty and I am

:39:16.:39:18.

happy to hear from the ministers that the government is listdning to

:39:19.:39:22.

expert advice and not giving in to the unpleasant pressure he hs

:39:23.:39:24.

receiving from some on his backbenchers. Children at C`lais

:39:25.:39:29.

have come from some of the lost difficult and unsafe parts of the

:39:30.:39:34.

world. In some respects, thd instability from which they have a

:39:35.:39:36.

third has been caused by fidld British foreign policy. Somd of them

:39:37.:39:43.

have, in fact, grown old in the camp waiting to be processed, but that

:39:44.:39:48.

should not be held against them As the Minister said, the definition of

:39:49.:39:51.

a child is under the age of 18 and anyone familiar with childrdn will

:39:52.:39:56.

know that a young man in his teens, under the age of 18, separated from

:39:57.:40:03.

his parents, is a vulnerabld person. Mr Deputy Speaker, I regret that

:40:04.:40:06.

this question and some of the stuff we have seen in the tabloids and

:40:07.:40:09.

some of the behaviour from lembers of the audience in question Time

:40:10.:40:13.

last night is symptomatic of the xenophobia that has arisen hn this

:40:14.:40:18.

country since the referendul. We are united in our condemnation of

:40:19.:40:22.

homophobia. What is the govdrnment doing to quell the rising thde of

:40:23.:40:26.

xenophobia in this country `nd what will the Minister do to challenge

:40:27.:40:30.

for permission in the press and to camp and the doubts about how these

:40:31.:40:34.

children will be treated whdn they arrive here? The children arriving

:40:35.:40:39.

under Dublin three, those whth family here, you would expect the

:40:40.:40:44.

age profile of those to reflect the overall age profile in the camp

:40:45.:40:48.

which is older children in lany ways, but under Dublin we are

:40:49.:40:53.

looking to encourage the most vulnerable to come forward `nd that

:40:54.:40:58.

would be the younger childrdn. If I could give an update on our progress

:40:59.:41:04.

under the Dublin regulation, over 140 unaccompanied asylum sedking

:41:05.:41:07.

children have come from Europe and been accepted for transfer to the UK

:41:08.:41:11.

under the family reunion provisions, of which 80 are from France.

:41:12.:41:22.

Can I join her in condemning any xenophobia, that is not somdthing in

:41:23.:41:35.

the British or the Scottish psyche. It is to be condemned right across

:41:36.:41:40.

the house. Mr Deputy Speaker can the Minister confirm what specific

:41:41.:41:43.

actions are being taken by the UK and French security forces to stop

:41:44.:41:48.

criminal gangs from exploithng vulnerable people, in particular

:41:49.:41:56.

children, in Calais? It is certainly a matter of great concern, people

:41:57.:42:00.

traffickers are in these calps. The best way to curtail the acthons of

:42:01.:42:03.

these people is to dismantld the camp and dispersed the people around

:42:04.:42:06.

the country where they are less able to be targeted. I am pleased that

:42:07.:42:12.

the Home Office working with our French counterparts have made a

:42:13.:42:15.

number of successes, in terls of arrest, where people trafficking is

:42:16.:42:18.

going on, and that is something that will continue to keep the pressure

:42:19.:42:24.

up on. My constituent Norman that has sent me an extract this morning

:42:25.:42:28.

from the British medical Jotrnal which says, and I quote, medical

:42:29.:42:32.

estimation of age is still inaccurate and the results `re on

:42:33.:42:36.

arrival, and said age variations have standard deviations of more

:42:37.:42:40.

than 12 months and limited by discrepancies, racial discrdpancies

:42:41.:42:45.

and concluding ethically it is hard to justify treating someone as an

:42:46.:42:51.

adult based on such unreliable data. Does the Minister agree? Thd

:42:52.:42:54.

honourable gentleman is absolutely right. All the August medic`l bodies

:42:55.:42:59.

I quoted, dental bodies I qtoted, made it clear that you cannot use

:43:00.:43:04.

medical or dental evidence `s a way of determining age, and indded my

:43:05.:43:07.

own wisdom teeth didn't comd down until quite late in life. In many

:43:08.:43:13.

cases, these young people h`ve not enjoy the same levels of nutrition

:43:14.:43:16.

we have, so once again their stages of growth may vary. So I wotld

:43:17.:43:21.

underline the fact that all of the evidence indicates you cannot use

:43:22.:43:26.

this method. If a determination of age is necessary, there is ` process

:43:27.:43:34.

with two social workers, it takes about 28 days, and that method is

:43:35.:43:38.

used by social services offdred on a country, that cannot be dond in the

:43:39.:43:41.

timescales. Even if we could do it on French territory. I welcome the

:43:42.:43:47.

comments the Minister has m`de so far. What will be in the public s

:43:48.:43:53.

mind is what they are seeing in the media against what we are sdeing

:43:54.:43:56.

today. What work is the Homd Office going to do to try to reasstre the

:43:57.:44:02.

public about those we are hopping? Certainly we have all seen the

:44:03.:44:05.

pictures from the camps, -- those we are helping. The pictures from the

:44:06.:44:09.

camps and the terrible condhtions both young people and adults are

:44:10.:44:13.

having to India. I know that the wishes of the vast majority of the

:44:14.:44:19.

British people is to ensure that if we do have the responsible T, then

:44:20.:44:24.

we should actually step up to the mark and ensure that those children

:44:25.:44:30.

are brought to a place of s`fety in the UK and working with French

:44:31.:44:32.

colleagues, that is what we intend to do. I also welcome the comments

:44:33.:44:37.

of Minister. In response to a question that shows not onlx a lack

:44:38.:44:41.

of compassion but a fundamental lack of understanding of the fact that

:44:42.:44:43.

these young people have had to grow up beyond their years because they

:44:44.:44:47.

are children who have had their childhood Rob from them and have to

:44:48.:44:51.

fend for themselves. I asked the minister if you would agree with me

:44:52.:44:53.

on that point and also if the Minister can do everything he

:44:54.:44:57.

possibly can in this departlent to ensure that these children do not

:44:58.:45:03.

grow old waiting to be procdssed. Certainly the previous Dublhn

:45:04.:45:12.

process did take some weeks, but given the timescale of the projected

:45:13.:45:16.

clearance, it is important that we have actually accelerate th`t

:45:17.:45:19.

process to make sure the chhldren can be processed and I am pleased we

:45:20.:45:23.

are doing that. Can I pay tribute to our Home Office staff who h`ve been

:45:24.:45:26.

there in very difficult conditions to deliver that promise. Can my

:45:27.:45:32.

right honourable friend ple`se explain to the house the process by

:45:33.:45:35.

which the government works with the Italian, French, Greek governance,

:45:36.:45:41.

as well as NGOs, to identifx and speed up the process of bringing in

:45:42.:45:47.

child refugees when it is in their best interest? The Dublin process is

:45:48.:45:54.

relatively simple. It isn't just children who may -- has intdrest may

:45:55.:46:01.

be best served within the UK, it applies to all European famhlies and

:46:02.:46:04.

a number of transfers have taken place. Thank you very much Lr Deputy

:46:05.:46:10.

Speaker. The media circus over the past few days has not just been

:46:11.:46:14.

distasteful, it has been downright dangerous, and the media exposure

:46:15.:46:18.

will serve to further fanned the flames of intolerance, and hs

:46:19.:46:22.

massively irresponsible at ` time of raising hate crime in England. What

:46:23.:46:28.

exactly is the Home Office doing to protect the identities of vtlnerable

:46:29.:46:30.

refugees and in particular child refugees? Certainly there wdre some

:46:31.:46:37.

pictures in the press of chhldren with blanket over their head, which

:46:38.:46:41.

was specifically to protect their identity as children. I havd

:46:42.:46:46.

confidence in the British pdople, in their compassion and their wish to

:46:47.:46:50.

support us in what we are doing and I think a small minority either in

:46:51.:46:54.

the media or noises off shotld not be listened to. Can I pay tribute to

:46:55.:46:59.

my honourable friend and his department and all the work he is

:47:00.:47:02.

doing to help those most vulnerable children but I was just wondering if

:47:03.:47:06.

you could update the house on what this government has offered

:47:07.:47:08.

assistance to the French government to clear the camp at Calais? We are

:47:09.:47:16.

working very closely with the French government, and where resources are

:47:17.:47:21.

needed, we are ensuring we can help wherever we can. My right honourable

:47:22.:47:24.

friend the Home Secretary h`s met with her opposite number on a number

:47:25.:47:27.

of occasions. We are working very closely with the French. It is in

:47:28.:47:30.

our common interest to ensure that that camp is cleared, not jtst

:47:31.:47:35.

because of the people there that because of the pull factor of people

:47:36.:47:40.

who may be thinking about m`king that dangerous journey across the

:47:41.:47:45.

Mediterranean. First overall can I welcome the measured approach which

:47:46.:47:48.

the government minister has taken in his response, and questioned

:47:49.:47:52.

seriously the integrity of the honourable member on the backbenches

:47:53.:47:57.

who has the audacity to question... Sorry. The macro I think we all had

:47:58.:48:02.

integrity in this house and we're not going to change it. Minhster if

:48:03.:48:06.

you can pick something out of that, otherwise move on.

:48:07.:48:15.

Thank you Mr Deputy Speaker, I'm grateful to my honourable friend for

:48:16.:48:19.

the information he has given to the house this morning. Could I ask him

:48:20.:48:26.

whether child refugees are being admitted because they have family

:48:27.:48:32.

ties in the UK, our checks lade with their families here in this country

:48:33.:48:36.

if there are any doubts abott their age, and is the government giving a

:48:37.:48:40.

record of the ages of all the children who are being admitted and

:48:41.:48:48.

will this be published? Jenner we are certainly keeping records of the

:48:49.:48:53.

children and when they arrive at lunar house for processing, a

:48:54.:48:57.

terrible word, the initial welcome they get, they then move onto

:48:58.:49:04.

temporary holding facilities around the country before being retnited

:49:05.:49:08.

with their families and all the necessary social services checks

:49:09.:49:14.

will be carried out. Can thd Minister expand and provide a bit

:49:15.:49:18.

more detail on exactly what this government is doing to help protect

:49:19.:49:21.

honourable people and migrant children across Europe and the

:49:22.:49:27.

Balkans? Certainly as the previous Prime Minister announced at this

:49:28.:49:29.

dispatch box, it is very important that we are not distracted by the

:49:30.:49:35.

events in Calais and around Europe from the real need, which is in the

:49:36.:49:39.

refugee camps in the war zones and countries around the world zones. I

:49:40.:49:42.

am very pleased that we havd the second biggest donor and we working

:49:43.:49:46.

very closely to ensure that people there get help, and of course we

:49:47.:49:50.

have the programme for bringing 20,000 people from across those

:49:51.:49:54.

areas. They are the most vulnerable. It is not necessarily the c`se that

:49:55.:49:59.

those who can make the case -- the journey are the most vulner`ble and

:50:00.:50:02.

that is the right course I believe will stop can you insure th`t

:50:03.:50:08.

safeguarding checks are in place fully and they will be kept safely?

:50:09.:50:15.

Absolutely. Home Office offhcials with local government social service

:50:16.:50:17.

officials will make sure we discharge Culliver responsible at

:50:18.:50:23.

ease in terms of protecting the children. Many constituents in the

:50:24.:50:26.

Calder Valley have contacted me wanting to know why when we have

:50:27.:50:29.

said we are going to take Gdorgia from the jungle in Calais, that we

:50:30.:50:32.

are actually taking young mdn are not young girls? Can my honourable

:50:33.:50:39.

friend confirm that the onlx unaccompanied children that is those

:50:40.:50:40.

under 18 in Calais at the jungle are in fact a

:50:41.:50:58.

young men? 90% of those in the camps who are children are young len. And

:50:59.:51:01.

it is important that as we love to the next phase that will be younger

:51:02.:51:07.

children and those at most risk We now come to reopening the ddbate,

:51:08.:51:11.

Nick Herbert to continue. Thank you very much, Mr Deputy Speaker. As I

:51:12.:51:16.

was saying, it seems to me there is no difference between the government

:51:17.:51:20.

and the honourable member for East Dunbartonshire as to the intention

:51:21.:51:24.

of this bill, which is in rdlation to those who are living, and to whom

:51:25.:51:31.

and injustice has been done, they should be pardoned, but the

:51:32.:51:39.

intention is not the pardon those who committed offences that would

:51:40.:51:45.

still be criminal offences today. There is now disagreement bdtween

:51:46.:51:48.

the government and the honotrable member and other honourable members

:51:49.:51:52.

in this house as to the intdntion. The only disagreement is to the

:51:53.:51:59.

actual effect of the bill's proposals, and the honourable member

:52:00.:52:02.

has suggested a specific mechanism for ensuring that those who should

:52:03.:52:09.

not make use of a pardon in an improper manner, because it should

:52:10.:52:13.

not apply under the terms of his bill, could not do so because the

:52:14.:52:18.

onus of proof would be on them to show that they had not commhtted

:52:19.:52:26.

well but now still be an offence. In those circumstances, it seels to me

:52:27.:52:30.

to be right, especially givdn that this was a bill that in the first

:52:31.:52:35.

place the government encour`ge the honourable member to bring forward

:52:36.:52:40.

after his success in the prhvate member's bill ballot, it wotld seem

:52:41.:52:45.

to me to be entirely right `nd proper that the bill was given a

:52:46.:52:50.

second reading today, procedded to committee, where these diffdrences

:52:51.:52:56.

in legal effect could properly be ironed out. Ajax said that the

:52:57.:53:02.

government, in bringing forward its proposals a very short time ago

:53:03.:53:07.

intends to do broadly the s`me thing in fulfilment of its manifesto

:53:08.:53:11.

commitment that the honourable gentleman's bill sought to do, but I

:53:12.:53:16.

also understand why the honourable gentleman feels that his Bill should

:53:17.:53:20.

receive a second reading and that there should be further discussion

:53:21.:53:26.

about the particular effects that his Bill proposes, and indedd I

:53:27.:53:30.

don't think it was, in general is a very good way to proceed th`t the

:53:31.:53:34.

government, having originally proposed a bill having encotraged

:53:35.:53:39.

it, then a couple of days bdforehand brings forward its own alternative

:53:40.:53:42.

measures. If there has been some miss understanding or if brdakdown

:53:43.:53:47.

of communication, then I wotld urge on both sides that communic`tion is

:53:48.:53:50.

restored, and it would seem to me that the best thing and the proper

:53:51.:53:56.

thing would be to have thesd discussions in committee, so that

:53:57.:54:03.

legitimate discussion about the arcane provisions are exerchsed But

:54:04.:54:06.

I would just say, finally, H give way to the honourable... Very

:54:07.:54:11.

quickly Mr Deputy Speaker, can I confirm that if the governmdnt

:54:12.:54:15.

honours its original promisd to me and supports this, I will bd very

:54:16.:54:19.

happy to engage with them in committee with any concerns that

:54:20.:54:25.

they have. I'm sure that thd government will have heard that

:54:26.:54:29.

concern. What I think would be a pity would be if there was `ny

:54:30.:54:36.

attempt by other honourable members in this house who do not sh`re what

:54:37.:54:41.

I believe is the view of thd majority of those present today that

:54:42.:54:47.

this bill and its general provision should proceed, that in gendral it

:54:48.:54:52.

is right that people should be pardoned, and do not accept the

:54:53.:54:54.

Conservative Party's manifesto commitment to secure that wdre

:54:55.:55:00.

because of this particular disagreement over the legal effect

:55:01.:55:04.

of the honourable gentleman's Bill given an excuse not to allow the

:55:05.:55:09.

bill not to proceed. There hs, I repeat, no disagreement as to the

:55:10.:55:13.

intention of the honourable gentleman's Bill, it is the same as

:55:14.:55:18.

the government's intention. There will be people listening to this

:55:19.:55:22.

debate, and the signal that this House of Commons sends on these

:55:23.:55:27.

matters is immensely import`nt. As I said before the urgent question it

:55:28.:55:30.

is important to those who are still living, in terms of the Justice that

:55:31.:55:35.

should be done to them when a great injustice was done before, ht is

:55:36.:55:38.

important towards micro-manx young people who are struggling whth their

:55:39.:55:40.

own sexuality and coming to terms with it, and want to ensure

:55:41.:55:45.

acceptance today, it is important globally for the message th`t this

:55:46.:55:50.

country sends out to the rest of the world that the legislation we pass

:55:51.:55:54.

and promoted in an age gone by not only was wrong then that is capable

:55:55.:55:57.

of still doing great injusthce today. And we should therefore be

:55:58.:56:03.

atoning for that in a very clear manner on and we should not allow

:56:04.:56:08.

that message that we wish to send all of these groups of people to be

:56:09.:56:14.

distorted. This House of Colmons should stand for justice, for

:56:15.:56:20.

equality and we should stand for the principle that where an injtstice

:56:21.:56:23.

was done in the past, we should recognise that clearly and

:56:24.:56:27.

unequivocally, and that is why this bill should be given a second

:56:28.:56:28.

reading. Can I congratulate my honourable

:56:29.:56:40.

friend and colleague for East Dunbartonshire for bringing this

:56:41.:56:43.

important pill that is very essential Bill to parliament? There

:56:44.:56:54.

has been huge progress in allowing LGBT Scotland has become thd best

:56:55.:57:01.

country in Europe for gay rhghts with the UK close behind. Wd must

:57:02.:57:07.

never forget the appalling way the LGBT people have been treatdd in the

:57:08.:57:13.

UK throughout history. The criminalisation of thousands of gay

:57:14.:57:17.

and bisexual men who were c`utioned, convicted, imprisoned and even

:57:18.:57:23.

castrated by the homophobic laws which banned sex between consult --

:57:24.:57:30.

consenting adult men. We must now take ownership and apologisd for

:57:31.:57:34.

this. The namesake of this Bill Alan Turing, was a mathemathcian,

:57:35.:57:39.

competing pioneer and code broker whose work cracking the Enigma code

:57:40.:57:43.

is said to have shortened World War II by four years. He lost hhs job

:57:44.:57:48.

with the Secret Service aftdr being convicted for gross indecency and

:57:49.:57:53.

was chemically castrated. As a result he took his own life two

:57:54.:58:00.

years later in 1954. In 2013, he was granted a posthumous royal pardon,

:58:01.:58:05.

61 years after he had been charged at a Manchester police stathon. That

:58:06.:58:11.

is all good but it is both perverse and a cheering has been the only

:58:12.:58:17.

person to have been pardoned. I am sure no one doubts that there needs

:58:18.:58:21.

to be wider action on this latter. This government has a duty to

:58:22.:58:26.

everybody convicted under the gross indecency law to pardon thel from

:58:27.:58:30.

these historic, for the grillings. It is thought that at least 49, 00

:58:31.:58:35.

other gay and bisexual men were convicted until on sexualitx was

:58:36.:58:44.

deemed to be not illegal in 196 . Each of these was unfairly

:58:45.:58:46.

persecuted and many suffered similarly offer feeds to Al`n

:58:47.:58:51.

Turing. 16,000 of these men are still alive today. Many found

:58:52.:58:57.

themselves outed, interrogated and ostracised from society over their

:58:58.:59:00.

sexuality and suffered long lasting psychological damage. From what I

:59:01.:59:06.

understand, there is currently a disregard process. Men can `pply to

:59:07.:59:10.

have their record cleared which removes any mention of an offence

:59:11.:59:16.

from criminal record checks. This is not good enough. Although these men

:59:17.:59:20.

will still have to apply, this Bill will give a pocket pardon to all men

:59:21.:59:24.

who have lived their life w`s an unfair criminal conviction.

:59:25.:59:30.

Stonewall, the leading LGBT charity has given full support for the

:59:31.:59:33.

measures laid out in the Bill we are debating today. It makes a stronger

:59:34.:59:38.

statement on the seriousness of the commitment of the government in this

:59:39.:59:43.

area of social life. If we `re to take action in this area and provide

:59:44.:59:48.

leadership, it is best to do so any wholehearted way with the ftll

:59:49.:59:52.

backing of the law. I would personally go further and c`ll on

:59:53.:59:55.

the prime ministers to make a full public apology to LGBT individuals

:59:56.:59:59.

in the United Kingdom for the injustice they have suffered.

:00:00.:00:06.

Nothing we do can fully makd amends for the cruel discrimination these

:00:07.:00:10.

men have suffered and I hopd this Bill goes some way to giving a sense

:00:11.:00:14.

of closure for these men and their families. It is a pleasure to follow

:00:15.:00:23.

the honourable member for Dtndee West in this debate. I hope you

:00:24.:00:30.

won't mind me briefly marking the 50th anniversary of the Aberfan

:00:31.:00:36.

disaster, to pay tribute to those residents in Charleston in ly own

:00:37.:00:40.

constituency, who offered their own homes up and hospitality to not only

:00:41.:00:44.

give people somewhere to go to, but respite away from the scene for so

:00:45.:00:49.

many people had lost their lives and a plaque still commemorates that

:00:50.:00:55.

this day. I would like to congratulate the honourable member

:00:56.:01:00.

in bringing this Bill to thd House. Whatever the outcome of the debate,

:01:01.:01:04.

we have seen a major change which was announced yesterday by the

:01:05.:01:09.

government that will finallx see people be viewed as innocent, that

:01:10.:01:14.

they were not committing a criminal offence as we would know it today.

:01:15.:01:18.

In his introduction he talkdd about how, when he was born, it w`s a

:01:19.:01:24.

criminal offence. Even when I was born it was still a criminal offence

:01:25.:01:29.

to be who you are in Scotland and in Northern Ireland. It was only in

:01:30.:01:35.

1982, 15 years after decriminalisation in England, that

:01:36.:01:39.

similar provisions finally came into effect in Northern Ireland. Could

:01:40.:01:46.

also say some territories that our flag were still implying laws of

:01:47.:01:57.

this nature until the 1990s. It beggars belief that people still

:01:58.:02:03.

thought that was right. For me, we could look back through history and

:02:04.:02:07.

Liberty Hall range of offences that we would say are not fences. For

:02:08.:02:12.

example, we do not believe there is anyone in our constituencies tonight

:02:13.:02:15.

practising as it which, tryhng to make someone ill. Let's be clear,

:02:16.:02:27.

the reason we know those convictions are pagan nonsense, that people were

:02:28.:02:33.

sent to the gallows for somdthing which was nonsense and based on fear

:02:34.:02:38.

and hysteria. The differencd with these offences is that it is where

:02:39.:02:45.

people are not gay. That is who they are. In the past it would h`ve been

:02:46.:02:50.

a criminal offence. The laws we were referring to, there are people

:02:51.:03:02.

alive, ... That is why, for me, having this type of pardon lakes

:03:03.:03:09.

sense. I have felt a bit of the debate has danced around thd head of

:03:10.:03:16.

a pin. We have got an argumdnt that it pardon should be given btt it

:03:17.:03:21.

will only be replicated on criminal record checks. First is a p`rdon

:03:22.:03:27.

that will be granted after the removal from criminal record checks.

:03:28.:03:31.

We would all agree that crilinal record checks have to be accurate

:03:32.:03:37.

and listening to The Member For East Dunbartonshire, I have found some of

:03:38.:03:41.

the argument on both sides rather interesting when comparing them and

:03:42.:03:47.

where we come to. Your input arguments and haven't got a copy of

:03:48.:03:52.

the Bill, there is no suggestion from anyone that what is sthll a

:03:53.:03:58.

criminal offence today should not remain on someone's record. The

:03:59.:04:03.

debate is how we get there. I very much welcome the fact that the

:04:04.:04:08.

government will probably give the quickest way of getting there in

:04:09.:04:11.

terms of a Bill which is in the Lords and will come back here. I

:04:12.:04:16.

also think in terms of commdnting on the Bill before us today, nobody is

:04:17.:04:20.

suggesting that someone shotld be able to claim they would have been

:04:21.:04:24.

innocent of an offence that would still be an offence to this day

:04:25.:04:31.

Particularly where we have lore modern legislation in relathon to

:04:32.:04:34.

those in positions of authority over those aged 16 and 17 were, puite

:04:35.:04:40.

bizarrely, given the hysterha around the impact on young boys thdre

:04:41.:04:46.

wasn't any legislation in the 1 50s that made it an offence for a

:04:47.:04:51.

teacher to basically be a predator for a 16 or 17-year-old fem`le

:04:52.:04:55.

student or a student of the opposite sex. Yet, there was an offence, to

:04:56.:05:04.

refer to the then Labour government, it could sense that when ch`nging

:05:05.:05:07.

the age of consent, that anomaly was rated that it was equally as bad

:05:08.:05:12.

that a 30 or 40-year-old chhldren would pray and a member of the

:05:13.:05:15.

opposite sex as it would soleone of their own sex. They were ushng their

:05:16.:05:20.

position to abuse, not the type of relationship. It is also about

:05:21.:05:27.

getting back into the past `bout why some people would say white apply to

:05:28.:05:33.

offences Bill 1967. The offdnces before and in six to seven were

:05:34.:05:40.

clearly nonsense. Another mdmber made the point about the re`ctions

:05:41.:05:45.

and behaviour from the police. In some cases, there were more

:05:46.:05:50.

prosecutions after 1967 then there had been before. Some forces did

:05:51.:05:56.

recognise that the legislathon pre-1967 was from another era and

:05:57.:06:00.

the enforcement of it was mhxed and variable. It is safe to say that in

:06:01.:06:05.

the mid-19 40s there was allost a policy in World War II of dhscreetly

:06:06.:06:10.

ignoring things on the basis that it was seen as helpful to use people's

:06:11.:06:19.

skills in the fight for freddom and then in the 1950s moved to try to

:06:20.:06:23.

take the freedom of whether prosecuting them for offencds that

:06:24.:06:27.

would restore handled. It does make sense to look not just that those

:06:28.:06:32.

who were convicted on the l`w pre-1967, but those who werd

:06:33.:06:36.

convicted up until very recdntly on those that are different. It should

:06:37.:06:42.

be remembered that we still have in the merchant Navy, eight st`tute

:06:43.:06:48.

book buyer on gay men serving. There is a private members Bill to remove

:06:49.:06:54.

that. It is sad to note that are part of our legislation that are

:06:55.:06:57.

historic and contain these provisions, though not in that

:06:58.:07:05.

instance in force. A lot of it does reflect on where we have got to

:07:06.:07:09.

today. Changing attitudes in society. I had a major change of

:07:10.:07:15.

attitude when I went to university. I went to a secondary school, I had

:07:16.:07:19.

fallen in for some of the prejudice and the arguments and the group

:07:20.:07:24.

thought. When I got to univdrsity and the first time people wdre out

:07:25.:07:28.

and saying who they were proud of it. The president of Warwick pride

:07:29.:07:33.

Society, who was having a chat with me when there was a debate going on

:07:34.:07:38.

around section 20 eight. He said to me, I should be a Conservathve. He

:07:39.:07:46.

said I believe in freedom of choice. Up until I make the choice `round

:07:47.:07:51.

where I wanted to love, lovd you argue against that. I can choose to

:07:52.:07:55.

have a pension or not, choose what I was about, whether I have children

:07:56.:07:59.

or not, yet I cannot choose who I love. That was a changing moment and

:08:00.:08:08.

it was such a logical argumdnt. I have got that choice, why shouldn't

:08:09.:08:12.

they? Some people though my partner is older than myself. I havd the

:08:13.:08:17.

right to choose that. It has never been an offence. Why should it be an

:08:18.:08:22.

offence for anyone else to choose who they love? Provided thex are

:08:23.:08:25.

both of the age where they can make an informed and mutual choice.

:08:26.:08:32.

Likewise, sometimes we get the religious argument. I am a

:08:33.:08:39.

practising Christian. That was regularly used to justify the laws

:08:40.:08:45.

of the past. Yet, there is ` law in the Ten Commandments around

:08:46.:08:50.

adultery. It is described as a sin, never been a criminal offence.

:08:51.:08:55.

Probably some of the people here making some of the comments that

:08:56.:08:59.

were being cited might well have been concerned if that had become a

:09:00.:09:11.

criminal offence. There is `lso in Deuteronomy, a ruling against mixed

:09:12.:09:15.

fabrics, but to the best of my knowledge, we don't some people

:09:16.:09:23.

publicly for mixing well. I thank the honourable gentleman for that

:09:24.:09:29.

intervention. I also find it hard to find out what is the appropriate

:09:30.:09:39.

price for slaves. Perhaps whth The Member For East Dunbartonshhre may

:09:40.:09:42.

not where is the homophobes and prejudiced individuals in p`rts of

:09:43.:09:49.

the red states like to quotd Leviticus, they Tattie it to their

:09:50.:09:54.

body. There is also a bit in Leviticus which describes touting

:09:55.:09:59.

your skin as a sin. It is one of the most delicious ironies. Thex are so

:10:00.:10:03.

blinded by the prejudice th`t they haven't bothered to read evdn the

:10:04.:10:07.

rest of that book of the Bible while proudly displaying that. Thdy don't

:10:08.:10:13.

know the sheer irony and how they were showing the total and ttter

:10:14.:10:17.

ignorance when you have it car to like that done to your body. For me,

:10:18.:10:25.

I don't see there is an argtment. It has been hundreds of years since we

:10:26.:10:29.

had the idea that religious beliefs should be enforced by polithcal

:10:30.:10:33.

power. Therefore, the argumdnt used in the past seemed completely

:10:34.:10:43.

incoherent. Offences in rel`tion to homosexuality were victimless

:10:44.:10:46.

crimes. No one had complaindd. Both sides were happy to take part. There

:10:47.:10:51.

was no idea that and the right had been infringed, just that other

:10:52.:10:55.

people were so prejudiced about that choice that they thought it should

:10:56.:10:56.

be a criminal offence. Without the time seen as trtly

:10:57.:11:06.

ridiculous offences attached, when no one had gone to the police to say

:11:07.:11:09.

I had been harmful stock as rightly pointed out, all too often this just

:11:10.:11:14.

became a way of blackmailing people, of threatening to go and Bob someone

:11:15.:11:19.

in. And shamefully, even until the 1990s, we still have the military

:11:20.:11:22.

police doing that and dealing in that sort of behaviour -- dob

:11:23.:11:29.

someone in. An episode of a touch of frost, as a teenager I saw, which is

:11:30.:11:33.

very much based on the idea that someone could be blackmailed, their

:11:34.:11:35.

whole career, on the basis of whether they are gay or not was

:11:36.:11:44.

absolutely shameful. It was right to point out, and by some people of my

:11:45.:11:49.

government who were in power at the time, John Major did the right thing

:11:50.:11:52.

at the foreign service but H think at that time we did the wrong thing

:11:53.:11:56.

in terms of not admitting pdople to the Armed Forces, that actu`lly the

:11:57.:11:59.

arguments around were the stuff of the stuff and nonsense. It has also

:12:00.:12:05.

been pleasing to see finallx in the United States, President Ob`ma's

:12:06.:12:11.

abandoning of don't ask, don't tell. What absolute load of nonsense,

:12:12.:12:16.

sharing a shower is fine as long as you don't tell each other. Ht was

:12:17.:12:20.

absolute nonsense and marked for me quite a symbolic change to love

:12:21.:12:24.

forward. So for me it does put me into a slight quandary, I sde here

:12:25.:12:29.

the government's argument, ht is welcome that the government is

:12:30.:12:32.

prepared to move on this, I hear the argument from the honourabld member

:12:33.:12:36.

the East Dunbartonshire arotnd the bill. I certainly won't be opposing

:12:37.:12:39.

the bill, I think that would be a ridiculous thing to do. And I do

:12:40.:12:44.

think some of the objections we are hearing are, I think, points that

:12:45.:12:49.

for someone to have the practical effect, which I think is thd key

:12:50.:12:52.

concern any of us would havd, the bill I think covers that, as does

:12:53.:12:56.

the government amendment. That said, the government amendment is almost

:12:57.:12:59.

certainly the quickest way to get this onto the statute book `nd

:13:00.:13:03.

finally give people a chancd to actually, I went so to clear their

:13:04.:13:06.

name, because actually we all know they are not criminals, thex are

:13:07.:13:13.

innocent. All they have dond is beef they are. So I actually find the

:13:14.:13:16.

idea of clearing their name slightly strange. I know others want to speak

:13:17.:13:24.

on and I broadly sympathise with the direction he is going but I just

:13:25.:13:28.

want to draw his attention to the government measure doesn't do the

:13:29.:13:33.

same thing. The only to achheve the same thing is to send the bhll into

:13:34.:13:40.

committee. I thank the Right Honourable member for his

:13:41.:13:45.

intervention. For me, though, it is ultimately debating about the

:13:46.:13:49.

record. I accept there is a member for the East Dunbartonshire's Bill,

:13:50.:13:53.

this is a blanket pardon, btt it actually only really takes dffect in

:13:54.:13:57.

terms of actually getting your name off criminal records via

:13:58.:14:00.

application, and the governlent s idea that you get your name off the

:14:01.:14:04.

criminal record and then get a formal pardon. I think that is the

:14:05.:14:09.

fundamental difference that seems to be being put forward. I accdpt the

:14:10.:14:12.

points made that this could be reflected in committee, but for me,

:14:13.:14:17.

it is actually quite unforttnate, we have had a couple of hours, bluntly

:14:18.:14:21.

we all agree with the sentilent we all agree with the principld, but we

:14:22.:14:33.

are dancing around on a pin. The key difference is that the government

:14:34.:14:36.

wants some safeguards around the pardon for the living. The lember

:14:37.:14:41.

for Rhonda spoke about some people with great moral fibre in this

:14:42.:14:45.

debate, but what the governlent wants to protect against is where

:14:46.:14:49.

there is a blanket pardon, someone, for example, who hadn't been

:14:50.:14:52.

pardoned could go around saxing they had. And for example what do you say

:14:53.:14:56.

to the victims of that person if it was noncontractual sex in that case

:14:57.:15:05.

Quek at with respect to the Minister, anyone could go around

:15:06.:15:09.

Fleming they had been pardoned for an offence, it is the posithon in

:15:10.:15:12.

the criminal records that m`kes the key difference. I am very conscious

:15:13.:15:23.

of time. This is a seminal debate. Would the join me in urging the

:15:24.:15:29.

Minister to get into committee, sort out the problems the Ministdr things

:15:30.:15:32.

he has an let's get it in the statute book. I thank the Shadow

:15:33.:15:37.

Minister for the intervention. I hear watches saying, although

:15:38.:15:40.

actually to be fair to the Linister, he has gone further than anxone else

:15:41.:15:43.

has gone in the last 50 years to pardon the ball so I am loathe to

:15:44.:15:48.

offer criticism. I will not oppose this bill, that would be thd wrong

:15:49.:15:52.

step I think, but I think it is likely I will probably coming to

:15:53.:15:56.

abstain, because I think thd government is offering something up

:15:57.:15:58.

that makes a difference and a change. But I would say to the

:15:59.:16:02.

Minister that anyone could go around claiming they could be pardoned it

:16:03.:16:05.

is criminal record checks that are the final determinant and the

:16:06.:16:09.

record. And I think both sides in this argument are not contending

:16:10.:16:13.

that in any way that there should be a change to those terms, without

:16:14.:16:16.

somebody actually proving that this was not going to be a criminal

:16:17.:16:22.

offence. As I would say, for me ultimately, this is about pdople who

:16:23.:16:25.

have never committed an offdnce or they did was be who they ard and I

:16:26.:16:30.

think it is welcome, and it is unfortunate we have ended up having

:16:31.:16:33.

such a strong argument about finer points. Can I say to people that we

:16:34.:16:37.

are in danger of talking thd bill out, all these people are w`iting,

:16:38.:16:42.

can we try to help each othdr? To all speakers, try to keep it short

:16:43.:16:48.

and we can get there. I would like to pay my respects to the pdople of

:16:49.:16:54.

Aberfan, we will not forget you I would like to thank the people putt

:16:55.:17:01.

Honourable member for bringhng the bill, and people who support this

:17:02.:17:04.

bill, and the fantastic spedches we have had today, especially ly very

:17:05.:17:11.

Honourable friend, the membdr for Rhondda. The government's

:17:12.:17:14.

announcement today that he hs seeking to amend the police and the

:17:15.:17:17.

bill is of course welcome btt he doesn't go far enough. The two

:17:18.:17:22.

clauses tabled today contain posthumous pardons and pardons for

:17:23.:17:29.

men who are still alive. Thd first put pardoned anyone who had been

:17:30.:17:31.

convicted of or cautioned for a specified offence and has dhed

:17:32.:17:33.

before the clause comes into force, provided the following two

:17:34.:17:39.

conditions are met: the othdr two -- the other person consented to it and

:17:40.:17:43.

was aged 16 or over. Any such conduct at the time, this sdction

:17:44.:17:50.

came into force, would not be an offence under section 71 of the

:17:51.:17:54.

sexual offences act 2003, sdxual activity in a public lavatory. The

:17:55.:18:02.

second clause calls for a who are still living, it would causd an --

:18:03.:18:08.

the protection of freedoms `ct 012. Those living at the time thd clause

:18:09.:18:15.

cams in the first. Pardons for living men would not however be

:18:16.:18:20.

automatic. They would inste`d be tied to the disregard process set

:18:21.:18:25.

out in the 2012 act. Anyone whose conviction or caution has already

:18:26.:18:29.

become disregarded under thd 20 2 act at the time the clause comes

:18:30.:18:33.

into force will be pardoned for that offence. Anyone whose conviction or

:18:34.:18:39.

cautioned the comes disregarded after the 2012 act after thd clause

:18:40.:18:43.

comes into force will be pardoned for that offence at the timd the

:18:44.:18:47.

disregard takes offence. So living men will not receive a pardon under

:18:48.:18:51.

the new clause unless they have also successfully applied to havd their

:18:52.:18:55.

conviction or caution disregarded under the 2012 act. The press has

:18:56.:19:04.

been quick to name this proposal Turing's law. Alan Turing, ` well

:19:05.:19:13.

hero, -- were hero, his pardon came posthumously and too late. Ht was a

:19:14.:19:18.

Labour Prime Minister, Gordon Brown, who rightly issued an offichal

:19:19.:19:22.

apology in 2009 after a public petition. In issuing an apology he

:19:23.:19:28.

said in 1952 he was convictdd of gross indecency. In effect tried for

:19:29.:19:35.

being gay. He was sentenced and faced with a miserable choice of

:19:36.:19:40.

this or prison, was chemical castration by a series of injections

:19:41.:19:44.

of female hormones. He took his own life just two years later. Thousands

:19:45.:19:51.

of people have come together to demand justice for Alan Turhng, and

:19:52.:19:54.

in recognition of the appalling way he was treated. While Turing was

:19:55.:19:59.

doubtful than the rule of the time and we can't put the clock back his

:20:00.:20:03.

treatment was of course uttdrly unfair, and I am pleased to have the

:20:04.:20:08.

chance to say how deeply sorry I am, as we all are, to what happdned to

:20:09.:20:12.

him. Alan and so many others, thousands of gay men who were

:20:13.:20:17.

convicted as he was convictdd, and a homophobic laws were treated

:20:18.:20:21.

terribly. Over the years, mhllions more live in fear of conviction I

:20:22.:20:26.

am powered that those days `re gone, and that in the past 12 years, this

:20:27.:20:36.

government -- I am proud. This recognition of Alan's status as one

:20:37.:20:41.

of Britain's most famous victims of homophobia is another step towards

:20:42.:20:46.

equality, and long overdue. Members on this side of the house and Labour

:20:47.:20:50.

supporters the length and breadth of the UK are proud that it was a

:20:51.:20:54.

Labour government and a Labour Prime Minister that started the process

:20:55.:20:57.

which has led us to this debate today. It was the coalition

:20:58.:21:03.

government who initially refused to exercise a pardon in 2012, `nd it

:21:04.:21:07.

was right that under the wehght of public opinion they changed their

:21:08.:21:13.

minds in 2013, in order that the Queen could grant a pardon hn 2 14.

:21:14.:21:19.

But as many have said today there are so many more who have not

:21:20.:21:23.

received a pardon and it is right that they should do so. As others

:21:24.:21:28.

have said it is right that we should recognise the need to extend the

:21:29.:21:34.

pardon afforded to Alan Turhng two others convicted to what much of

:21:35.:21:36.

history's shame was a criminal offence, though most people today

:21:37.:21:39.

find it hard to believe quite rightly. This is why Labour

:21:40.:21:47.

committed to Turing's law in the 2015 general election, but the law

:21:48.:21:52.

as it stands does not go far enough. Rachel Barnes, a great-niecd of Alan

:21:53.:21:57.

Turing, recognise that in 2015, when handing a petition to Downing Street

:21:58.:22:06.

said: I consider it to be f`ir that everyone convicted under thd gross

:22:07.:22:10.

indecency law is given a pardon It is illogical that might gre`t uncle

:22:11.:22:15.

is the only one to have been given a pardon. I would feel sure that Alan

:22:16.:22:18.

Turing would also have wantdd justice for everybody. And ht is

:22:19.:22:23.

right that the government h`s listened to those who have

:22:24.:22:26.

campaigned on this issue for many years. The private members bill

:22:27.:22:32.

before the house today would go further. Pardons would be ghven to

:22:33.:22:39.

all those is, so for those convicted of behaviour that would still amount

:22:40.:22:42.

to an offence today. It is difficult to the government's objection to

:22:43.:22:47.

this in principle. The problems of perception, as the Minister

:22:48.:22:54.

highlights, could easily be avoided. It is often suggested that the

:22:55.:22:56.

disregard scheme should havd more promotion. The proposed amendment to

:22:57.:23:06.

section 92 on the protection of freedoms act, also looks like a

:23:07.:23:12.

logical progression. Section 32 of the sexual offences act 1956,

:23:13.:23:21.

soliciting by men for immor`l purposes, was not included hn the

:23:22.:23:24.

list of conviction that shotld be disregarded in the protection of

:23:25.:23:30.

freedoms act 2012. There ard many examples which show the offdnce was

:23:31.:23:34.

used as recently as the 1990s to arrest and prosecute gay and

:23:35.:23:39.

bisexual men for suggesting sex between what they understood to be

:23:40.:23:48.

consenting at adults, often in incidents involving plainclothes

:23:49.:23:49.

policeman. This bill will at this convhction to

:23:50.:24:04.

the list of laws that can bd disregarded, closing this loophole.

:24:05.:24:09.

Labour recognises that the conviction and persecution of more

:24:10.:24:16.

than 50,000 men affected by these vicious and discriminatory laws has

:24:17.:24:19.

left a legacy of pain and htrt, not just to the men themselves but to

:24:20.:24:24.

their family and friends. This is all about our country sending those

:24:25.:24:28.

men a clear and unequivocal message, you did nothing wrong. They did

:24:29.:24:32.

nothing wrong. They should not have been criminalised, and it is time to

:24:33.:24:37.

write this grievously historical wrong. That is why we will be

:24:38.:24:45.

supporting this bill and we encourage honourable members to do

:24:46.:24:56.

the same. May I begin by adding my congratulations to the honotrable

:24:57.:24:58.

member for East Dunbartonshhre firstly for securing the top spot in

:24:59.:25:04.

the private members bill ballot and then deciding to use it to hntroduce

:25:05.:25:09.

this important bill. I was very pleased and honoured to be `sked to

:25:10.:25:15.

be a co-sponsor of the bill, and my support remains undiluted for it.

:25:16.:25:20.

And should we come to a divhsion on this bill today I will be stpporting

:25:21.:25:27.

him in the lobby. I identifhed with much of what he said in his opening

:25:28.:25:33.

speech about the experiences of growing up as a closeted gax man in

:25:34.:25:40.

the West of Scotland. I went through a similar experience and upbringing,

:25:41.:25:45.

and it wasn't easy. And it took me a long time to come to terms with who

:25:46.:25:50.

I was. Indeed, we went to the same school.

:25:51.:26:10.

It might be and Galant of md to say that it was a few years apart. It

:26:11.:26:18.

wasn't easy growing up in that atmosphere and being gay and having

:26:19.:26:27.

to cite -- highs that. -- hhde that. My other reason for being vdry

:26:28.:26:31.

passionate about this measure is a constituency one. I am very proud to

:26:32.:26:37.

have in my Milton Keynes constituency Bletchley Park where

:26:38.:26:40.

Allen during did much of his celebrated work during the Second

:26:41.:26:47.

World War. -- Alan Turing. He did much to shorten that conflict, as my

:26:48.:26:52.

honourable colleagues have referred to, saving thousands if not millions

:26:53.:26:57.

of lives as a consequence. H am very proud that we have got to the point

:26:58.:27:02.

where he was granted a pardon in the last parliament. That was a

:27:03.:27:06.

culmination of a long campahgn for many years by many people inside and

:27:07.:27:12.

outside of this House. I relember when the debate was happening about

:27:13.:27:16.

whether he should be granted a pardon as opposed to an apology

:27:17.:27:21.

there were a number of objections raised and the one and only time I

:27:22.:27:27.

was grilled on Newsnight by Jeremy Paxman, two particular argulents

:27:28.:27:31.

were made. The first was, it wrong retrospectively to pardon for a

:27:32.:27:39.

crime that was a crime at the time but now which thankfully in more

:27:40.:27:44.

enlightened times is no longer so. Because if you started pardoning for

:27:45.:27:49.

that, where do you stop? Wh`t about witchcraft? Do we grant a p`rdon and

:27:50.:27:55.

apology for that? Well, if people want to bring forward a bill to

:27:56.:27:58.

pardon people for witchcraft, I would say, bring it forward. This is

:27:59.:28:03.

a matter that really matters to lots of people. A sign of a civilised

:28:04.:28:09.

society is that we can colldctively pardon. There is no fault whth the

:28:10.:28:23.

pardon that was issued for people executed in the First World War for

:28:24.:28:28.

cowardice. That was issued `nd it showed that we can retrospectively

:28:29.:28:35.

pardon. The second argument was why just Allen during? Yes, a f`mous

:28:36.:28:43.

person, a person to whom we owe an enormous debt of gratitude, but as

:28:44.:28:52.

many people have alluded to, he was just one person caught under the

:28:53.:29:02.

same legislation. -- Alan Ttring. That was more difficult to `rgue. I

:29:03.:29:06.

was happy to champion Alan Turing because we do, as a country, owe him

:29:07.:29:11.

an enormous debt of gratitude. It was also a symbolic gesture that the

:29:12.:29:16.

country has moved on and by pardoning him, we would send a very

:29:17.:29:21.

clear message that such so-called crimes were no longer a stahn on our

:29:22.:29:26.

collective conscience. But ht did trouble me that it was just that one

:29:27.:29:33.

person. At the honourable mdmber for East Dunbartonshire and othdrs have

:29:34.:29:37.

said, it did affect many thousands of other men. That is why I am very

:29:38.:29:42.

pleased that this bill is bding introduced and, to be fair to the

:29:43.:29:46.

Government, they have made progress on this through the protecthon of

:29:47.:29:50.

freedom is that in the last Parliament and their indication of

:29:51.:29:55.

support to Lord Sharkey's alendment in the Other Place. That is very

:29:56.:30:00.

welcome progress and I will wholeheartedly support that if that

:30:01.:30:03.

is the vehicle through which change happens. However, I absolutdly agree

:30:04.:30:11.

with the honourable member will -- member for Dumbartonshire and others

:30:12.:30:17.

who have said, we can do better than this. We can move forward in a much

:30:18.:30:24.

more symbolic way and in a way which will really make a difference to

:30:25.:30:31.

many people in this country. Certainly. It is appointed symbolist

:30:32.:30:39.

than what I think that very much at the heart of what he is sayhng. I

:30:40.:30:46.

would have loved to have spoken today but my voice is giving in I

:30:47.:30:52.

did not come out until after I was elected to my family. I hopd the

:30:53.:30:59.

next generation of young people will not have to make public statements,

:31:00.:31:04.

the next generation of politicians will not have do say they are gay

:31:05.:31:08.

because it will not matter, our race, sex or sexuality will not

:31:09.:31:18.

matter. It is very important we go forwards with this as a bill because

:31:19.:31:22.

it will have better scrutinx than it would do otherwise. I absolttely

:31:23.:31:28.

agree with the honourable l`dy and I congratulate her on finding her

:31:29.:31:31.

moment to make that announcdment and agree that we shouldn't havd do make

:31:32.:31:37.

it. But we, all of us who are gay, have a different journey. Wd come to

:31:38.:31:44.

terms with it at different times in different ways, privately whth our

:31:45.:31:46.

family and friends and then publicly. That leads us neatly to

:31:47.:31:53.

the next point I was going to make. Although we do live in enlightened

:31:54.:31:58.

times and we have passed thd same-sex marriage act and sdction 20

:31:59.:32:03.

is consigned to the dustbin, or section two A as it was in Scotland.

:32:04.:32:10.

Adoption procedures have ch`nged, the military procedures havd

:32:11.:32:13.

changed. Some people say, why do you need this? Haven't you got `ll you

:32:14.:32:17.

have been asking for? But there is an important point that even people

:32:18.:32:22.

like me who were born after homosexuality was decriminalised

:32:23.:32:29.

still can carry with us perhaps a sense of shame, perhaps a sdnse that

:32:30.:32:34.

we are not entirely comfort`ble in our own skin. That is a leg`cy of

:32:35.:32:44.

growing up in an age when there was prejudice. Different people cope

:32:45.:32:49.

with that in different ways. I've struggled with it at times. I've

:32:50.:32:55.

read a very good book and I would encourage other members to read it.

:32:56.:32:59.

It's called the Velvet Ridgd by Doctor Alan Downs. And he gdts to

:33:00.:33:08.

the heart of why some gay mdn steal feel, even in enlightened thmes in

:33:09.:33:12.

countries where the law is `s liberal as it can be, still fill

:33:13.:33:22.

that Shane -- still feel th`t shame. It does matter that we addrdss that.

:33:23.:33:27.

This bill in itself will not clearly hang-ups or depression or anything

:33:28.:33:31.

that people have, but it will be an important step, in the same way that

:33:32.:33:36.

same-sex marriage was and all the other changes we have made hn recent

:33:37.:33:41.

years. So, I do urge the Government to think seriously about supporting

:33:42.:33:48.

this bill, at least allowing it through second reading. If H

:33:49.:33:52.

remember correctly when I w`s studying politics at university the

:33:53.:33:56.

point of a second reading is a debate on the principle of the bill.

:33:57.:34:02.

No one today has expressed objection to the principle of the bill. If

:34:03.:34:07.

there are questions about the detail, the process, the capacity of

:34:08.:34:11.

the Ministry of Justice, thdse are all perfectly valid concerns to

:34:12.:34:15.

raise. We are a parliament, that is what we do. We look at the detail.

:34:16.:34:21.

We tease out, looking for unintended consequences, but surely we can do

:34:22.:34:27.

that in committee? It would send, I think, a very powerful mess`ge, an

:34:28.:34:32.

important message, to be cotntry, to the thousands of men who struggled

:34:33.:34:39.

still with what happened in the past and to those who are still growing

:34:40.:34:43.

up today, uncertain about how or should they come out. Pleasd let us

:34:44.:34:50.

approve this today. Take it to committee, tease out the issues

:34:51.:34:54.

there. That is the appropri`te procedure in my view for thhs bill.

:34:55.:34:58.

I congratulate again the honourable gentleman for introducing it and

:34:59.:35:03.

I'll be very proud to support him in the lobbies later if it comds to it.

:35:04.:35:09.

Thank you, Madam Deputy Spe`ker It is a genuine pleasure to follow the

:35:10.:35:13.

honourable member for Milton Keynes South who has developed -- delivered

:35:14.:35:20.

a powerful speech and I also want to particularly thank in the w`rmest

:35:21.:35:24.

terms the honourable member for East Dumbartonshire who has brought this

:35:25.:35:30.

bill before us today. Unlikd him, I wasn't born in the 1970s, btt my

:35:31.:35:41.

parents were. I reflect on how much our society has changed durhng their

:35:42.:35:47.

lifetimes and mine. In parthcular, thinking about how far the law of

:35:48.:35:53.

the light -- land has changdd just during my own lifetime. We have seen

:35:54.:35:58.

the abolition of section 28 across England and Wales and two A in

:35:59.:36:07.

Scotland, the legalisation of equal marriage, the introduction of

:36:08.:36:09.

protection in goods and services, the ability for LGB to people to

:36:10.:36:15.

serve in the armed services. There have been so many changes brought

:36:16.:36:19.

about in the law of the land by this place that have led to our country

:36:20.:36:25.

being a better place for it. That is why I very much support this bill

:36:26.:36:29.

today. I also support, by the way, the fact we are having a debate with

:36:30.:36:32.

a Conservative Government about how we make the change to the l`w

:36:33.:36:37.

whether -- rather than whether we should. I will return to th`t point

:36:38.:36:41.

in my short remarks but I do welcome the fact that the Government has

:36:42.:36:45.

made some steps in the Housd of Lords and I would urge them this

:36:46.:36:48.

afternoon to go further through this bill and through proper scrttiny in

:36:49.:36:53.

the House of Commons. Alan Turing has an important part in our

:36:54.:36:58.

country's history but he also has an important part to play in otr

:36:59.:37:02.

country's teacher because, through great initiatives like the work of

:37:03.:37:09.

science and history teaches throughout the country, young people

:37:10.:37:14.

today learn of the extraordhnary acts of bravery and intelligence

:37:15.:37:20.

that took part at Bletchley Park in the honourable gentleman's

:37:21.:37:24.

constituency. Were it not for Alan Turing, it is very likely that we

:37:25.:37:29.

would not have succeeded in turning back the tide of Nazism as ht swept

:37:30.:37:34.

across Europe, we would not have been successful at defeating them in

:37:35.:37:38.

the sea and in the air and ht was three the Enigma code breakhng work

:37:39.:37:41.

that took place at Bletchlex Park that the allies were able to secure

:37:42.:37:47.

such a powerful advantage over the Nazis when all seemed lost on the

:37:48.:37:53.

continent of Europe. That story is powerful, not just because of the

:37:54.:37:58.

extraordinary role that Alan Turing played in that decisive momdnt in

:37:59.:38:03.

British history, but becausd only a few years later, this hero of our

:38:04.:38:10.

country was tried before our courts, chemically castrated and forced to

:38:11.:38:15.

take his own life. Young people growing up in schools today not only

:38:16.:38:19.

learn about the enormous heroism of Alan Turing, they also learn about

:38:20.:38:23.

the extraordinary treachery of the Government of the day, of the courts

:38:24.:38:29.

that allowed it to happen, `nd in that lesson, in that experidnce

:38:30.:38:33.

they reflect on what it means to be a decent human being. They reflect

:38:34.:38:38.

with horror on Britain's past and they aspire towards a better future.

:38:39.:38:44.

As a former head of education at Stonewall, I know how powerful the

:38:45.:38:49.

work of teachers and schools is not just in learning about changes to

:38:50.:38:53.

the law, but in bringing about change to heart and mind. L DBT

:38:54.:39:02.

young people growing up in Britain today face very different challenges

:39:03.:39:07.

to Alan Turing and his generation. Unlike Alan Turing's generation

:39:08.:39:09.

they are not threatened by the letter of the law, but just like

:39:10.:39:14.

Alan Turing's generation, they do nonetheless feel threatened by

:39:15.:39:18.

bigotry on the streets, in the workplace, in the classroom, in the

:39:19.:39:25.

home. That is why we need to think very carefully about the message we

:39:26.:39:32.

will send three the law tod`y - through the law today, becatse of

:39:33.:39:38.

those pressures that LGB to the well feel they need to remain in the

:39:39.:39:44.

closet. We have the appalling situation where One in Five men are

:39:45.:39:53.

currently experiencing anxidty, where one third of lesbian xoung

:39:54.:39:56.

women have thought about taking their own lives and where,

:39:57.:40:03.

shockingly, more than a half of LGB teeth young people in our schools

:40:04.:40:07.

have self harmed, where one in four has attempted suicide. Thesd are

:40:08.:40:12.

young people growing up in our society today and if we werd

:40:13.:40:15.

thinking or talking about these figures in any other context, there

:40:16.:40:20.

would be an outrage in this place and across the country about these

:40:21.:40:24.

figures for suicide and self harm and yet these are very real

:40:25.:40:28.

statistics affecting young people in our country to date. These `re of

:40:29.:40:33.

epidemic proportions. This hs a national crisis and the Govdrnment

:40:34.:40:36.

needs to look very carefullx at what it can do to tackle the mental

:40:37.:40:41.

health crisis that still affects LGB T people in Britain today. The

:40:42.:40:47.

member for Reigate spoke very powerfully about symbols and the

:40:48.:40:51.

possibility for this bill to be a very powerful symbol about the kind

:40:52.:40:54.

of country we want to be. I would urge the Minister to think very

:40:55.:40:58.

carefully about what symbol it would send today if this bill, with all of

:40:59.:41:03.

the welcome publicity that's been generated, was either talked out or

:41:04.:41:04.

defeated. I think it would send a message that

:41:05.:41:11.

there are still people in this House and across the country who `re not

:41:12.:41:16.

content to see equality for LGBT people, who look back on thd

:41:17.:41:19.

progress made by this Parli`ment not with pride and optimism for the

:41:20.:41:23.

future but with regret and pessimism about their ability to defe`t what

:41:24.:41:30.

Martin Luther King called the arc of social progress that bends towards

:41:31.:41:35.

justice. I think listening to what the Minister has said this

:41:36.:41:37.

afternoon, he clearly has some technical problems with the Bill as

:41:38.:41:41.

it is presented, and that is exactly why he should it urges colldagues to

:41:42.:41:46.

vote in favour of the Bill, to give this a second reading so thdse

:41:47.:41:50.

things can be ironed out at committee stage. People across the

:41:51.:41:55.

country will not hear that there are technical concerns, they will see

:41:56.:41:58.

the views that a conservative governorate has conspired to defeat

:41:59.:42:01.

an aborted measure. I will give way. It is important to make it clear

:42:02.:42:04.

that the Government is not dragging its heels, not hesitant on this

:42:05.:42:09.

important issue. The governor wants to write this historic wrong and do

:42:10.:42:19.

it as fairly as possible. I am absolutely delighted by the

:42:20.:42:22.

statement, and I'm delighted to talk further about how can I out the

:42:23.:42:28.

problems as we march into the lobby this afternoon. The other thing I

:42:29.:42:32.

want to say before I conclude is that while we can look back with

:42:33.:42:35.

enormous pride at what has been achieved, we cannot issue that the

:42:36.:42:39.

progress we have made cannot be undone. I'm sure I'm not thd only

:42:40.:42:42.

person in the House this afternoon who is deeply concerned that, in

:42:43.:42:48.

recent weeks and months, we had seen a huge rise in hate crime across the

:42:49.:42:51.

United Kingdom, including homophobic hate crime. We have seen thd rise of

:42:52.:42:58.

far right extremism across Durope and we have seen the US reshdential

:42:59.:43:02.

election, being someone who is absolutely fine with sexual

:43:03.:43:06.

harassment is no bar to the highest office. We support liberal democracy

:43:07.:43:15.

and to have become complacent about defending it, and insuring hts

:43:16.:43:21.

ongoing success. That is whx I think this Bill is an important moment in

:43:22.:43:24.

that context and why it shotld be supported. I want to end with the

:43:25.:43:29.

words of Roger Lockyer, who is 8 years old and one of the men who had

:43:30.:43:35.

to endure a lifetime of expdrience is that frankly and thankfully

:43:36.:43:39.

someone of my age and youngdr has not had to experience. He s`id,

:43:40.:43:45.

about the proposal brought forward by the honourable member for East

:43:46.:43:49.

Dunbartonshire this afternoon, about him had his generation who were

:43:50.:43:54.

convicted. He said, they max have been illegally convicted, btt they

:43:55.:43:59.

were unjustly convicted. Thhs pardon is not about forgiveness for

:44:00.:44:04.

something that they did wrong. This is a very powerful message that they

:44:05.:44:10.

should never have been convhcted in the first place. That those laws

:44:11.:44:13.

should never have existed, `nd they should never have been prosdcuted

:44:14.:44:20.

for something in which they had done absolutely nothing wrong. This Bill

:44:21.:44:25.

is about confronting our cotntry's past and facing the future with

:44:26.:44:28.

confidence, and that is why owl be voting for it this afternoon. - I

:44:29.:44:38.

will be voting for it. I used to live in Ilford town,

:44:39.:44:46.

before I was drummed out whdn the locals discovered I was a closet

:44:47.:44:51.

Tory. It is a great pleasurd to follow him and have the opportunity

:44:52.:44:59.

to speak on this Bill, which is of great importance, not just for

:45:00.:45:02.

justice in this country but of great emotional importance to my

:45:03.:45:06.

constituents and those who `re either gay themselves or who have

:45:07.:45:09.

friends and family and colldagues who are. They have felt judged by a

:45:10.:45:15.

different standard over the years. The honourable member for E`st

:45:16.:45:17.

Dunbartonshire is my colleague on the culture, media and sport select

:45:18.:45:20.

committee and I'm incrediblx grateful to him for using hhs

:45:21.:45:25.

coveted allocation of time for a Private members Bill to bring

:45:26.:45:29.

forward these proposals and also for sharing his ideas with me over

:45:30.:45:34.

several bottles of rows a vhew weeks ago, thank you very much. -, bottles

:45:35.:45:42.

of rose. He has done a lot of work to make

:45:43.:45:45.

this a cross-party initiative. I thank him for including the. I'm

:45:46.:45:50.

proud to be on my feet in stpport of what he wants to achieve through

:45:51.:45:54.

this Bill. We have had some incredibly impressive come to be

:45:55.:45:58.

since today, in particular H would like to mention the honourable

:45:59.:46:02.

member, who is not on his place from Arundel, from Glasgow South and

:46:03.:46:13.

the Rhondda. Equality beford the law must not only be our fundamdntal

:46:14.:46:16.

principle but our fundament`l practice. That means that not only

:46:17.:46:19.

must justice be done but justice must be seen to be done. Thd

:46:20.:46:26.

Government's previous busindss card -- disregard scheme helped

:46:27.:46:30.

ameliorate the repercussions of a criminal records upon those evicted

:46:31.:46:35.

under what we now rightly consider outdated, unfair and discrilinatory

:46:36.:46:40.

laws targeting sex between len differently to others. To truly

:46:41.:46:46.

rectify this injustice, we lust go further. As this Bill proposes,

:46:47.:46:53.

grant pardons, for convictions which were immoral. Justice will be seen

:46:54.:47:00.

to be done and, importantly, by those wrongly criminalised by -

:47:01.:47:12.

criminalised, and their famhlies. We have deep gratitude towards Alan

:47:13.:47:17.

Turing's crucial and be since towards Britain's defence provided

:47:18.:47:23.

enough of a focal point that his cause and trigger this apology.

:47:24.:47:29.

Though one citizen has a grdater value or a greater right to justice.

:47:30.:47:36.

This pardon, if it was just for Alan Turing, there is no tenable case

:47:37.:47:40.

that no other individual has that right.

:47:41.:47:49.

It is a fundamental acknowlddgement of the equality before the law. I

:47:50.:47:55.

welcome the comments of the Justice Minister, saying that the g`rment

:47:56.:47:59.

will adopt some of the proposals in this Bill and use the policd and

:48:00.:48:02.

crime Bill to put right somd of these injustices. But I do find that

:48:03.:48:09.

the last-minute scrambling... I hope you will forgive me for this, the

:48:10.:48:12.

dancing around handbags, if you like, at the last minute. Not a

:48:13.:48:20.

venture I have taken advant`ge of myself. I find that a littld bit

:48:21.:48:23.

slippery and a little disrespectful to the honourable member and his

:48:24.:48:30.

Bill. But I do look forward to his further remarks. Other colldagues,

:48:31.:48:38.

and I would like to wrap up, have proposed the moral and legal case. I

:48:39.:48:44.

will conclude my conclusion on the subject there, but I would like to

:48:45.:48:48.

conclude my remarks by taking this opportunity to issue a mea culpa.

:48:49.:48:56.

During my first term in offhce, I voted against equal marriagd for a

:48:57.:49:01.

whole host of reasons. I thought at the time that what I was dohng was

:49:02.:49:05.

right. Having now reflected and having seen how that act has made

:49:06.:49:10.

such a wasn't a difference for thousands of couples around the

:49:11.:49:16.

country, IDP regret that decision. -- I deeply regret that dechsion. I

:49:17.:49:23.

got it wrong. People in this House will know how difficult it hs for a

:49:24.:49:26.

Yorkshire men who admit thex have got anything wrong. If I had the

:49:27.:49:32.

opportunity again, I would vote differently, and I want to `pologise

:49:33.:49:36.

to my friends, I want to apologise to family members and consthtuents

:49:37.:49:42.

who identify as gay, lesbian or bisexual, and I want them to know

:49:43.:49:45.

that I believe in their full equality. I won't have the chance to

:49:46.:49:50.

change that previous vote, but I am pleased to have the chance to stand

:49:51.:49:54.

in support of equality before the law today. I am more than h`ppy to

:49:55.:49:58.

support my friend's Bill. APPLAUSE

:49:59.:50:06.

They give very much, Madame deputies bigger.

:50:07.:50:11.

I also wear a purple tie and a yellow lanyard. Resign! Tod`y is the

:50:12.:50:21.

day that I have to come out as being straight. I should point out that

:50:22.:50:28.

the wife who has been good dnough to put up with me for the last 32 years

:50:29.:50:36.

has had her suspicions. But there is a serious point, as was mentioned by

:50:37.:50:42.

my honourable friend from Livingston, I have never had to come

:50:43.:50:44.

out as being straight. Why should anybody have to come out for being

:50:45.:50:51.

gay or lesbian? I have never had to justify to anybody the codes of

:50:52.:50:58.

behaviour that guide me in ly private life, partly through the

:50:59.:51:00.

faith I believe it and partly just because I am who I am. I have never

:51:01.:51:05.

had to justify that to anyone. Why should anyone who lives a dhfferent

:51:06.:51:10.

path in life have to justifx the right to do so? What is it that

:51:11.:51:13.

gives me or anyone the right to criminalise somebody simply because

:51:14.:51:17.

they are a wee bit different from what I am. My first reason for

:51:18.:51:23.

supporting this Bill is not that various pieces of legislation

:51:24.:51:28.

outlawed sexual acts were wrong or mistaken or that they had p`ssed

:51:29.:51:31.

their sell by date it was thme to catch up with changes in social

:51:32.:51:34.

values and so on, it is bec`use these were laws that note P`rliament

:51:35.:51:38.

on earth has ever had any rhght to pass in the first place. Our

:51:39.:51:45.

predecessors step will beyond any legislation they had in passing

:51:46.:51:51.

this. I do not judge those who had to enforce the legislation. It is

:51:52.:51:55.

entirely proper that as the successors of those who passed

:51:56.:51:58.

legislation they had no right to pass, we take full responsibility

:51:59.:52:03.

for doing what we can do put it right. This is why this desdrves a

:52:04.:52:07.

full act of Parliament in its own right. The injustice is gre`t enough

:52:08.:52:10.

that it deserves a full act upon to put it right. It is approprhate that

:52:11.:52:18.

a pilot that speaks for the people is appointed for and by the great

:52:19.:52:25.

and the good. I wanted is bhg about the damage that has been done to

:52:26.:52:29.

summary lies. The worst possible result we could have today would be

:52:30.:52:34.

for the this Bill to be pushed out. I cannot think of any thing worse.

:52:35.:52:42.

If we didn't have time to ddcide whether to finally pardon and

:52:43.:52:47.

apologise to all those who were affected by it. I can appreciate

:52:48.:52:51.

there are concerns about a precedent. There was an exalple of

:52:52.:52:57.

young men who were executed for cowardice because they had nervous

:52:58.:53:02.

or mental breakdowns in the trenches. I'm not aware of `ny other

:53:03.:53:08.

instance in our recent history for Sunni people to have been stbjected

:53:09.:53:12.

to awful persecution as a rdsult of an unjust act of Parliament. If

:53:13.:53:16.

anyone can give me an example and wants to bring forward retrospective

:53:17.:53:21.

pardons for those affected by that legislation, I will support it and I

:53:22.:53:28.

hope everyone else will. My judgment as to when Parliament should

:53:29.:53:37.

criminalise an act, it should not conflict with my religious face It

:53:38.:53:43.

will always be on whether it will be harmful to others.

:53:44.:53:51.

What ever happens in societx or any least member of it, but is ly

:53:52.:53:56.

measure of that society. If it doesn't hurt anybody else, then it

:53:57.:54:00.

is nothing to do with the l`w of the land. Despite having a numbdr of

:54:01.:54:04.

difficult conversation with close friends and family at the thme of

:54:05.:54:11.

the debate over section 28, over gay marriage and adoption, I have never

:54:12.:54:14.

heard anyone present me with a single piece of evidence to suggest

:54:15.:54:19.

that two men having sex are any more of a danger to society than a man or

:54:20.:54:25.

a woman having sex, or two women having sex was not remember, that it

:54:26.:54:28.

has never been a common offdnce for two women to have sex. Why did they

:54:29.:54:33.

think it was a good idea to criminalise two men?

:54:34.:54:40.

We have got a very good exalple here in a honourable friend who confessed

:54:41.:54:44.

that he wanted to join the Government service and decided not

:54:45.:54:48.

to because he would not havd been allowed to without telling lies How

:54:49.:54:54.

many of our finest diplomats never joined the diplomatic service? How

:54:55.:54:58.

money other best teachers ndver taught in front of a class of young

:54:59.:55:02.

people? How many of our best politicians never stood for any

:55:03.:55:05.

public office? Not because they were not good enough but because they

:55:06.:55:08.

were scared to because of the terror of what might come out about their

:55:09.:55:13.

private lives. This legislation had an appalling effect on lives of

:55:14.:55:16.

thousands of our fellow cithzens it has also caused and told dalage to

:55:17.:55:23.

our society as a whole. As often referred it was a gift to otr

:55:24.:55:28.

friends in the KGB because ht was difficult to blackmail someone over

:55:29.:55:32.

a guilty secret after you h`ve said your gold the secret isn't guilty

:55:33.:55:39.

any more. It was a blackmail charter. We will never know how much

:55:40.:55:42.

damage was done in that reg`rd. We will never know how many lives were

:55:43.:55:48.

blighted, the lives of men who were not convicted. We will never know

:55:49.:55:52.

how many lived their entire lives under the terror of being

:55:53.:55:58.

discovered. We do note that a significant number of men took their

:55:59.:56:00.

own lives because they city could not reconcile the conflict between

:56:01.:56:08.

knowing who they were and bding told you are not allowed to live as a

:56:09.:56:11.

person that you believe yourself to be.

:56:12.:56:17.

I can understand there are concerns over the content of the bill but it

:56:18.:56:23.

seemed to me that the Minister has changed his concerns since the

:56:24.:56:28.

debate started. Earlier on there was a concern that it may enabld people

:56:29.:56:35.

to be pardoned he didn't nedd to be pardoned, but my honourable friend

:56:36.:56:43.

said that that could not happen so now that has been debunked `nd we

:56:44.:56:48.

know that the law would not allow anyone to be pardoned who should not

:56:49.:56:54.

be pardoned, that is not thd kind of argument we would expect from a

:56:55.:56:59.

minister when speaking about any piece of legislation and I have to

:57:00.:57:03.

say that the give me an uncomfortable feeling that the

:57:04.:57:06.

Government's concerns are not the fine details of the bill, btt more

:57:07.:57:10.

with the principle of the bhll, and I am left wondering whether the

:57:11.:57:15.

problem is with the identitx of the person who has brought the bill I

:57:16.:57:19.

hope that for goodness sake that is not an issue. Can I finish by

:57:20.:57:24.

saying, what does it do for the Democratic legislative -- what does

:57:25.:57:29.

it do for the reputation of this place and the Democratic,

:57:30.:57:41.

legislative place, that if ` person has put a lot of work into rating a

:57:42.:57:47.

bill that they said they wanted they then say to them, you can tear

:57:48.:57:52.

up your bill and put it on the fire, because we have decided a bdtter

:57:53.:57:59.

way. If that were to happen today, if the bill falls for lack of time

:58:00.:58:05.

because someone sees how cldver it would be to talk for as long as they

:58:06.:58:11.

can, if the bill was to fall through lack of time, what should bd one of

:58:12.:58:16.

the brightest days in the hhstory of this place would soon becomd one of

:58:17.:58:21.

the darkest. I appeal to melbers, and allow this bill to pass so that

:58:22.:58:25.

the thousands of men who continue to live with the shame and the Guild of

:58:26.:58:29.

something they should never have felt ashamed or guilty for, so that

:58:30.:58:35.

those who are still alive c`n live out their last days are not knowing

:58:36.:58:38.

they have been cleared and found innocent of any wrongdoing, and so

:58:39.:58:43.

that those for whom this decision is too late will finally be allowed to

:58:44.:58:51.

rest in peace. It is a pleasure to follow the honourable member. Can I

:58:52.:58:55.

also congratulate my honour`ble friend, the Member for Selbx, for

:58:56.:59:02.

his colleagues -- comments darlier on which I am sure the whold house

:59:03.:59:09.

bound touching and sincere. I congratulate the Member for East

:59:10.:59:14.

Dunbartonshire for his succdss in the ballot and for bringing this

:59:15.:59:19.

bill. It seems that we are finally close to fulfilling this cross party

:59:20.:59:32.

bill and I was honoured to be asked to support this bill, not only

:59:33.:59:36.

because it is entirely conshstent with my own feelings but also

:59:37.:59:40.

because it is entirely conshstent with a Conservative Party m`nifesto

:59:41.:59:44.

commitment in which we pledged to build on the past you must pardon of

:59:45.:59:52.

Alan Turing, to introduce a new law that will pardon those both alive

:59:53.:59:56.

and dead who suffered these wrongs. I note, a new law and pardon in that

:59:57.:00:02.

phraseology which is in the manifesto commitment which H stood

:00:03.:00:07.

on. Supporting this bill, therefore, was not a difficult decision for me

:00:08.:00:12.

at all because it is can -- entirely consistent with the manifesto. Yet

:00:13.:00:16.

we are now faced with not one but two bills that are now aiming to

:00:17.:00:21.

achieve this goal. I was encouraged by the Government's announcdment

:00:22.:00:24.

yesterday that Lord Sharkey's amendment to the policing and crime

:00:25.:00:33.

Bill will be accepted, and whichever of these bills make it into the

:00:34.:00:38.

statute book, it will be a long overdue step. It is extraordinary

:00:39.:00:42.

that there are men still alhve today who live with the stigma of a

:00:43.:00:46.

criminal record for homosextal acts that are no longer illegal. In many

:00:47.:00:50.

cases, they have not been illegal since before I was born. It is 9

:00:51.:00:57.

years since homosexuality w`s decriminalised in England and Wales,

:00:58.:01:00.

36 years and it was this criminalised in Scotland and 34

:01:01.:01:06.

years since it was decrimin`lised in Northern Ireland. We often pride

:01:07.:01:09.

ourselves in this place for leading public opinion but in this latter,

:01:10.:01:15.

we are Waverley behind. There are those that still find the idea of

:01:16.:01:22.

homosexuality uncomfortable. I am sure that the vast majority of

:01:23.:01:25.

people who hold those views would accept there is a vast diffdrence

:01:26.:01:29.

between being uncomfortable with the idea of acts of others and that

:01:30.:01:34.

those acts should be illegal. Personally, I don't believe that

:01:35.:01:37.

there is only so much love hn the world that Government needs to step

:01:38.:01:43.

in and dictate to consenting adults where it can and cannot occtr. While

:01:44.:01:48.

homosexual acts are no longdr illegal, the fact that the taint of

:01:49.:01:52.

criminal records for homosexuality still exists is completely out of

:01:53.:01:56.

kilter with modern, progressive and compassionate British society and it

:01:57.:02:00.

is absolutely right that we take action to correct this. Somd people

:02:01.:02:03.

have expressed concern that a bill such as this would lead to the

:02:04.:02:07.

pardoning of rapists and chhld molesters. This is obviouslx not the

:02:08.:02:12.

intent of anyone and I know that there are specific lines in this

:02:13.:02:19.

bill stating that the pardoning must refer to the consensual sex of over

:02:20.:02:23.

16 is only and I am sure th`t the Government's bill will make such

:02:24.:02:28.

assurances also. I also know there are concerns over whether a

:02:29.:02:32.

disregard process should be concerned. I am sure we can come to

:02:33.:02:36.

a reasonable consensus on all these points and it seems the onlx

:02:37.:02:40.

remaining issue is the procdss by which we avoid unintentionally

:02:41.:02:44.

pardoning those who should not be pardoned. Madam Deputy Speaker, we

:02:45.:02:51.

have a golden opportunity for a cross-party bill of huge actual and

:02:52.:02:56.

symbolic significance. I respectfully suggest, therefore

:02:57.:02:59.

that the Government ministers and the honourable member for E`st

:03:00.:03:02.

Dunbartonshire worked together on the details and final wording so

:03:03.:03:07.

that we can pass a bill that members of both houses and of all p`rties

:03:08.:03:11.

can agree upon. And pass thd bill as soon as possible. I have thd

:03:12.:03:17.

pleasure of serving alongside the Member for East Dumbartonshhre on

:03:18.:03:20.

the Culture, Media and Sport select committee. He has only been in this

:03:21.:03:24.

place for 18 months, just as long as I have, and yet in this short time

:03:25.:03:29.

he has already made a great impact. If he and the Government can come to

:03:30.:03:34.

an agreement to make the de`l work, he will have played a key role in

:03:35.:03:38.

securing a great legacy both for himself and for all of us ctrrently

:03:39.:03:43.

serving in this place. Madal Deputy Speaker, Isis port both bills as

:03:44.:03:47.

many people in this House do. - I support both bills in. I don't know

:03:48.:03:55.

which is the best way of getting there, but I hope we get resolution

:03:56.:03:59.

very soon. It is the genuind privilege to take part in this

:04:00.:04:03.

debate and I congratulate the Member for East Dumbartonshire for not only

:04:04.:04:08.

taking this forward as the topic for his bill but for his powerftl speech

:04:09.:04:12.

also. Many members have spoken eloquently about the issue of

:04:13.:04:17.

pardons and apologies and I don t intend in the very short relarks I

:04:18.:04:21.

wish to make to reiterate those arguments. I think that thex are

:04:22.:04:24.

powerful and they make a colpelling case for why we should pass this

:04:25.:04:30.

bill today. I want to focus my remarks on the important amdndments

:04:31.:04:35.

to the protection of freedol sacked 2012 that are in Clause thrde of the

:04:36.:04:38.

honourable member 's bills. I want to do so in reference to a

:04:39.:04:43.

constituent of mine who does want to be named, because as much as the

:04:44.:04:47.

anguish and pain that he has suffered over the years, he knows

:04:48.:04:50.

that he shouldn't be ashamed for what he was cautioned for. His name

:04:51.:04:58.

is Timothy Churchill Coleman. In July 1995, Mr Churchill Coldman was

:04:59.:05:04.

arrested on entering a bar hn Soho by several playing closed policemen

:05:05.:05:10.

and he was accused of solichting or importuning under section 22 of the

:05:11.:05:16.

sexual offences act 1956. Hd denied the accusation, was taken to a

:05:17.:05:19.

police cell and pressured to sign a caution. Leaving aside the fact that

:05:20.:05:23.

he didn't understand what hd was being asked to sign at the time he

:05:24.:05:28.

remains adamant and he is rhght that he did nothing wrong. Mr Chtrchill

:05:29.:05:32.

Coleman has tried every measure imaginable to try to clear his name

:05:33.:05:37.

both in personal representations to several police forces and through my

:05:38.:05:41.

officers. He is quite staggdred to have found out only last ye`r that

:05:42.:05:46.

the offence for which he was cautioned remains an offencd and I

:05:47.:05:52.

think the adding of that offence to the disregard provisions of the 2012

:05:53.:05:58.

act is a necessary and urgent step that the Government must take and is

:05:59.:06:01.

not contained in this darklx amendment. Honourable member 's have

:06:02.:06:08.

said we are dancing on the head of opinion here in terms of thd

:06:09.:06:12.

process. There are important measures in this bill which the

:06:13.:06:15.

Starkey amendment, as I unddrstand it, does not even mention it for.

:06:16.:06:26.

Let's consider what the leghslative intent for importuning means and

:06:27.:06:32.

direct to the Home Office mhnister just several months ago and the

:06:33.:06:36.

reply I got was that it rem`ins a criminal offence and that the

:06:37.:06:43.

Government has no intention of adjusting the bill. It means that

:06:44.:06:51.

soliciting and importuning, which can range from verbal propositions

:06:52.:06:54.

to smile and winking at a mdmber of the same sex, remains a crilinal

:06:55.:07:01.

offence. That is incoherent and I think, iniquitous and must be

:07:02.:07:05.

changed as a matter of urgency. It means that, logically, gay bars

:07:06.:07:14.

contact ads, dating agencies and phone lines are all illegal and

:07:15.:07:19.

could all be shut down should police interpret the law in the strict

:07:20.:07:24.

manner in which it is set down. In a country where homosexuality has been

:07:25.:07:28.

decriminalised and civil partnership is now legal, to criminalisd the act

:07:29.:07:32.

of attempting to communicatd with somebody of the same sex for the

:07:33.:07:36.

purpose of homosexual relathons to remain a criminal offence, H think,

:07:37.:07:41.

is absurd. That is why I thhnk we have two pass this bill,

:07:42.:07:43.

notwithstanding the very good arguments that have been made about

:07:44.:07:48.

the need to offer in apologx and a pardon. Not least to give

:07:49.:07:52.

constituency like mine some redress, because this stain on his rdcord, if

:07:53.:07:58.

you like, has been a blight on his life. It has made it extremdly

:07:59.:08:03.

difficult for him to apply for jobs. He is a very qualified and talented

:08:04.:08:06.

special educational needs tdacher and he has had to suffer thd

:08:07.:08:11.

indignity in job interview `fter job interview of having to menthon this

:08:12.:08:14.

caution and trying to explahn it away. I think it is for people like

:08:15.:08:19.

him as well as Alan Turing `nd all of those who deserve a pardon and

:08:20.:08:24.

apology that the Minister should, I think, think again. I think the

:08:25.:08:29.

honourable member for Selby and Aintree was right when he s`id that

:08:30.:08:33.

the Minister has come forward with a somewhat slippery argument. I do not

:08:34.:08:37.

think it holds up. I think we can deal with many of the safegtarding

:08:38.:08:40.

concerns in committee and I would urge honourable member is on the

:08:41.:08:46.

other benches to think again, those who intend to abstain or vote

:08:47.:08:50.

against this bill, and join us in the lobby and let's make an

:08:51.:08:54.

important symbolic statement and improve the lives of people like my

:08:55.:09:00.

constituent. It's a great privilege to stand up in this debate `nd can I

:09:01.:09:03.

pay absolute tribute to the honourable member for his bhll, his

:09:04.:09:07.

choice and the way he has ldft this debate. I want to pay tribute also

:09:08.:09:11.

to my honourable friend for Milton Keynes South for the town and his

:09:12.:09:18.

contribution. I know he is ` man of absolute integrity and his words

:09:19.:09:23.

really touched me today. It was also a privilege to witness my honourable

:09:24.:09:27.

friend from Selby and Ainsldy for being a true Yorkshiremen and coming

:09:28.:09:34.

to this chamber and apologising As a Welshman, I know how diffhcult

:09:35.:09:38.

that can be at times, but your words again I thought brought the best of

:09:39.:09:44.

this House out. If I can totch on the honourable member for Rhondda,

:09:45.:09:50.

how he brought this debate to us in this House, with the connection for

:09:51.:09:56.

members of this comments to the shelves we look at as we debate

:09:57.:09:59.

every day. The honourable mdmber for Ilford North, it's a great tribute

:10:00.:10:06.

to, I think, our country and our society that hours of our

:10:07.:10:11.

generation, if you don't mind me saying how generation, much of what

:10:12.:10:20.

we are talking about are alhen concepts of our generation. It is

:10:21.:10:23.

absolutely abhorrent to think that we did this as a society and the

:10:24.:10:27.

parliament, these alien concepts that we are writing now. It is an

:10:28.:10:32.

absolute privilege to be a lember of Parliament at this time and as I

:10:33.:10:36.

think of my children who ard four and younger, as they grow up in our

:10:37.:10:40.

society, they won't have to tackle any of these alien concepts. I think

:10:41.:10:46.

that is the right way to describe it and they won't be coming out as gay

:10:47.:10:51.

or straight, they will simply be going to school as human behngs and

:10:52.:10:53.

members of our society. This is not an English bill, it is

:10:54.:11:03.

an English and where are yot such bill and I do welcome the words of

:11:04.:11:06.

the honourable member about the Scottish government -- Welsh built.

:11:07.:11:11.

Would it be wrong of me to wish the honourable member was a member of

:11:12.:11:15.

the Scottish government and brought the same enthusiasm to this issue in

:11:16.:11:23.

Scotland? So I very much hope that it is followed up their as well We

:11:24.:11:30.

have been talking for a while about this, but in much agreement. There

:11:31.:11:35.

is a hint of sadness that wd are almost at the final hurdle, but

:11:36.:11:38.

there are elements that I think I just wish that we could get together

:11:39.:11:44.

and agree. I stood on the Conservative Party manifesto which

:11:45.:11:46.

was incredibly clear on this issue and I want it done as quickly as

:11:47.:11:50.

possible, and that is why I did welcome yesterday and I am glad

:11:51.:11:55.

there have been heads nodded to the amendments that will deliver this at

:11:56.:12:00.

pace. And we'll deliver this quicker than the Private Members' Bhll would

:12:01.:12:06.

do. And I think that is at the heart of this debate. And I do want to

:12:07.:12:11.

dwell for a moment, if I max, about the process. I hope the Minhster

:12:12.:12:16.

will bring up in his contribution about public awareness of what is

:12:17.:12:20.

currently on offer because H think there is a very good argument for

:12:21.:12:25.

making people aware that thdy can apply for the process and they can

:12:26.:12:29.

get this. And the pardon and disregard process. I will of course

:12:30.:12:33.

give way. Can I just say to the honourable

:12:34.:12:37.

gentleman that I thank him for his support, but he must realisd that

:12:38.:12:41.

the age demographic of the len concerned here is such that they

:12:42.:12:47.

will not apply for this. Thdy will not open themselves up to the shame

:12:48.:12:52.

and humiliation of applying. So this is I am afraid Cloud cuckoo land and

:12:53.:12:59.

has to be a pardon to give them comfort. This is the crux of this

:13:00.:13:05.

and I was getting to the disregard process and we have to think of a

:13:06.:13:10.

way round it. When the Home Office has rejected several applic`tions

:13:11.:13:14.

where the activity was nonconsensual and the other party was unddr 1 at

:13:15.:13:17.

the time, and this disregard process, there has been that level

:13:18.:13:22.

of safety. But I accept the point that we need to look away and that

:13:23.:13:27.

is why I was asking the Minhster to address that issue quite directly

:13:28.:13:31.

how we get out to the demographic we are talking about and we ensure they

:13:32.:13:37.

rightfully get the pardon, `nd above that, the disregard process. Because

:13:38.:13:45.

that clearly and irreparablx... Of course I will give way. I h`ve named

:13:46.:13:49.

an offence soliciting and importuning, not covered by the

:13:50.:13:54.

disregard process. I hope you would agree a criminal offence for that

:13:55.:13:57.

offence, I think society and the House would recognise is now

:13:58.:14:02.

considered unjust and is not covered by the scope of that process, so

:14:03.:14:06.

would he accept the disregard process has limitations addressed in

:14:07.:14:11.

this Bill? I listened to yotr speech with great note and I was hoping the

:14:12.:14:17.

Minister equally was listenhng. And prove he was indeed listening! I

:14:18.:14:21.

think the honourable member for giving way. The member for Woolwich

:14:22.:14:28.

made a passionate speech and to clarify, section 32 of the Sexual

:14:29.:14:32.

Offences Act 1956 in which he referred to in his speech which made

:14:33.:14:38.

soliciting and tuning a crile was repealed in 2004, but solichting

:14:39.:14:45.

still remains a crime. And H will leave that there! This is what I did

:14:46.:14:48.

want to drag out. Within thd amendment the government accepted

:14:49.:14:54.

from the Liberal Democrat pder yesterday is bringing justice to

:14:55.:14:57.

this issue at pace. Bringing justice to this issue with checks and

:14:58.:15:00.

balances. Of course I will give way. H think

:15:01.:15:07.

as people in this place, we have to recognise the importance of language

:15:08.:15:11.

and a Police and Crime Panel is utterly inadequate for dealhng with

:15:12.:15:17.

this. The language is fundalentally important. The issue of livd versus

:15:18.:15:22.

dead, the government's position is intellectually and morally bankrupt

:15:23.:15:28.

on this. I have paid tributd to this debate in my tone and it sedms to be

:15:29.:15:32.

going downhill! What my constituents want is justice. What my

:15:33.:15:39.

constituents want is to seal -- is to see action, not words, wd can

:15:40.:15:42.

debate that but what my constituents have put me here to do is gdt

:15:43.:15:47.

justice, and quickly. I belheve the amendment yesterday is the puickest

:15:48.:15:51.

way to achieve that. I have stood up. I have quietly trod arotnd the

:15:52.:16:01.

issue of this being an Engl`nd - Wales Bill and I want to sed the

:16:02.:16:05.

same justice in Scotland as we are talking about. It is all right to

:16:06.:16:11.

question is on rhetoric and action, even though we agree with most of

:16:12.:16:15.

what you say and we are changing something. But the Scottish

:16:16.:16:19.

government does need to go pace as well and I will not sit herd and

:16:20.:16:23.

take a lot of abuse on this issue where we are debating real `ction

:16:24.:16:26.

and the Scottish government, I am afraid, is quite slow.

:16:27.:16:37.

Is he aware that last year, and international human rights

:16:38.:16:38.

organisation named Scotland as the best country in Europe to bd gay,

:16:39.:16:43.

lesbian, bisexual and transgender? Will he take an assurance the

:16:44.:16:46.

Scottish government very much has these matters at the forefront of

:16:47.:16:50.

its mind? I of course welcome mat and I hope

:16:51.:16:55.

the United Kingdom as well `s Scotland is seen like that `round

:16:56.:16:59.

the world for every community. But I pay particular attention, absolute

:17:00.:17:06.

pleasure in acknowledging Scotland's achievement in that. But whdn you

:17:07.:17:10.

have been in government a while like the SNP in Scotland, you have to

:17:11.:17:14.

prove it with actions as well as words. You cannot just look at what

:17:15.:17:18.

you have been presented, yot are judged on your legislation `nd what

:17:19.:17:22.

has happened. Please, from ` sedentary position... The f`ct you

:17:23.:17:26.

are quoting political slogans at me. Order. I allowed the debate to have

:17:27.:17:34.

a nicer tone and for the vidws to go unchecked but when the honotrable

:17:35.:17:40.

gentleman says you, he is rdferring to the chair. I apologise

:17:41.:17:45.

unreservedly, I am being stoked by my SNP colleagues while tryhng to

:17:46.:17:48.

agree on a lot of things. I will of course give way, one last

:17:49.:17:53.

time. It is worth putting on record we're having this debate today as a

:17:54.:17:57.

result of a raffle basicallx that my honourable friend, his name was

:17:58.:18:01.

drawn out of a hat. A member of the Scottish Parliament wants to take

:18:02.:18:05.

part in a Private Bill, do they do so by building consensus and having

:18:06.:18:09.

an open consultation and showing consensus at every stage. That

:18:10.:18:12.

contrast is particularly important and worth noting in the context of

:18:13.:18:16.

how this debate came about today. The honourable gentleman makes my

:18:17.:18:21.

point for me. You have been in government, you did not need a

:18:22.:18:27.

raffle in Scotland. Madam Ddputy Speaker, you really got me on the

:18:28.:18:31.

now with this you. I will gdt to the point, which is the honourable

:18:32.:18:36.

gentleman makes my point for me which is they have been in

:18:37.:18:39.

government in Scotland and did not need a raffle. I will now sht down,

:18:40.:18:46.

unless you are temptingly to contribute further by trying to get

:18:47.:18:53.

where I started! An absolutd tribute to the vast majority of this bill, I

:18:54.:18:58.

pay absolute tribute to the government for conceding to the

:18:59.:19:02.

amendment yesterday. And wanting to see justice and echoing agahn that I

:19:03.:19:06.

am so delighted to be a member of Parliament, where we discuss these

:19:07.:19:10.

alien concepts and we see jtstice for it.

:19:11.:19:19.

Before I start, I want to gdt the sartorial bit of the debate out of

:19:20.:19:23.

the way as quickly as possible. I am not wearing a pink because we are

:19:24.:19:26.

discussing gay men's relationships, but today is Were Pink day for

:19:27.:19:33.

breast cancer and I would lhke to see the whole chamber in pink. Those

:19:34.:19:38.

of you who came to the event I hosted, and I did note the pueue,

:19:39.:19:48.

over 200 MPs came, dressed somewhat flamboyantly in their photographs,

:19:49.:19:52.

so treat them later. There has been a lot of humour today, but ht is

:19:53.:19:56.

something very serious. His name is on the bill, Alan Turing made Singh

:19:57.:20:05.

as big a difference of any individual in the Second World War.

:20:06.:20:10.

It is estimated he shortens the war by two years and that he saved 0

:20:11.:20:16.

million lives. There were m`ny heroes who suffered and lost their

:20:17.:20:21.

lives, there is no one person we can identify like that. Unfortunately

:20:22.:20:26.

for him, what he did was secret at Bletchley Park, he was not ` hero,

:20:27.:20:30.

he was not welcomed with a ticker tape or given a medal or anxthing

:20:31.:20:34.

else. So when he ended up in a situation of being charged with

:20:35.:20:38.

gross indecency, not for having sex with someone under age, not for

:20:39.:20:42.

having sex in public or beh`ving in a lewd way, but having been burgled

:20:43.:20:48.

and having had to call on the public service of the police when ht of

:20:49.:20:52.

course became obvious that he lived with his partner, they were both

:20:53.:20:59.

charged with gross indecencx. His partner was let off but he dnded up

:21:00.:21:02.

beating guilty under legal `dvice and was given the brutal choice of

:21:03.:21:08.

going to prison or facing mddical castration -- pleading guilty. He

:21:09.:21:15.

was injected for a year. Th`t causes the growth of breast tissue,

:21:16.:21:20.

impotence and depression. So no little wonder that he took his own

:21:21.:21:26.

life with cyanide two years later. On top of that, one thing that was

:21:27.:21:30.

very important is the Alan Turing is that he lost his security clearance.

:21:31.:21:33.

They allowed him technicallx to stay in his job and is the right -- the

:21:34.:21:42.

right academic papers but as a leading developer of computdr

:21:43.:21:45.

technology, what he did was so much part of him that that also was his

:21:46.:21:51.

identity. His identity at work and in his person was removed. This idea

:21:52.:22:00.

of sexual orientation has not disappeared and is still pr`ctised

:22:01.:22:04.

in many parts of the world, still advertised in America, and still

:22:05.:22:09.

people in this country, with health care connections, who believe that

:22:10.:22:16.

homosexual allows -- homosexuality can be killed. The idea we `re

:22:17.:22:19.

talking about a parallel to witchcraft from medieval tiles and

:22:20.:22:24.

this is just technical is not true. Many people were tortured. @version

:22:25.:22:31.

therapy included giving people nausea inducing drugs, whild showing

:22:32.:22:36.

them pictures of male homosdxual sex. Some were electrocuted, some of

:22:37.:22:41.

them were burned, some of them had all sorts of horrible things done to

:22:42.:22:46.

them as part of this. And wd need to realise these people were

:22:47.:22:51.

systematically tortured by the state and by health services. And this is

:22:52.:22:57.

not that long ago. I was alhve when the law changed. Some of us here

:22:58.:23:02.

were. But this is not medieval times, there are still people, as

:23:03.:23:08.

Stonewall has shown in their survey last year, there are still people

:23:09.:23:12.

associated with health care practice perhaps on the edges, but bdlieve

:23:13.:23:19.

that still. And we need to be very, very clear. We have seen thd

:23:20.:23:29.

approach change, the member for Selby I thought was so honest and so

:23:30.:23:34.

moving in talking about how he had changed. And that is what wd have

:23:35.:23:39.

seen. It is not just a mattdr of social change. What we do in this

:23:40.:23:44.

place drives social change. Equal marriage has helped to change

:23:45.:23:48.

society. But this anomaly is still here. And that small amendmdnt on

:23:49.:23:54.

the policing bill will simply not do what this does. And I don't mean in

:23:55.:23:59.

process, process can be sorted out in whatever way necessary in

:24:00.:24:02.

committee and we should not be arguing about the head of a pin or

:24:03.:24:07.

anything else. What voting this through does is it sends a lessage.

:24:08.:24:12.

As the member for Ilford North talked about, it is not the case, as

:24:13.:24:19.

was earlier mentioned by thd member year for Sheffield West, th`t it is

:24:20.:24:26.

an issue no more to be gay hn schools. It still is, a lot of young

:24:27.:24:32.

people hide with it and thex are in pain. If we vote against thhs today

:24:33.:24:37.

or because of some piece of trickery in this place that we talk `bout...

:24:38.:24:43.

The message we send out will be appalling. We need to take our

:24:44.:24:48.

responsibility, something I do not talk about much, but for thd

:24:49.:24:51.

Commonwealth. We hosted the Commonwealth Games two years ago in

:24:52.:24:55.

Glasgow. In the run-up, we had all the discussion about the cotntries

:24:56.:24:59.

where people are persecuted and imprisoned. That part of thd British

:25:00.:25:06.

United Kingdom Commonwealth. And so for the mother of Parliaments here,

:25:07.:25:11.

that is heard across those countries, to talk it out or vote it

:25:12.:25:17.

down sends an appalling message We have seen how simply a vote to leave

:25:18.:25:21.

the European Union has empowered people in a tiny minority to feel

:25:22.:25:28.

somehow enabled to have acthons of race hate or indeed homophobia. So

:25:29.:25:35.

saying we don't think we should do this would give exactly that same

:25:36.:25:40.

impairment -- and power mad across the country. Sorry, the two things

:25:41.:25:46.

are not equivalent and it is not a matter of speed. These men have

:25:47.:25:51.

waited four decades, five ddcades. I think we should actually do them the

:25:52.:25:54.

honour of trying to do this right and get the biggest impact.

:25:55.:26:02.

People campaign not just Al`n Turing, we have pardoned hil, that

:26:03.:26:07.

is the slightly bizarre thing, but it is our job to make sure that all

:26:08.:26:11.

those other silent he that have suffered in the past are pardoned as

:26:12.:26:16.

well. So I call on the membdrs opposite, don't use technic`l thing

:26:17.:26:20.

or feeling uncomfortable about supporting this. Abstaining will not

:26:21.:26:25.

do it, voting against it will not do it. As a House we need to sdnd this

:26:26.:26:30.

through with a massive majority today so this voice cannot be

:26:31.:26:35.

ignored in any part of the world. Thank you, Madam Deputy Spe`ker It

:26:36.:26:40.

is a pleasure to follow the powerful speech of the member for Central

:26:41.:26:44.

Ayrshire, and this speech of the member for Greenwich and wotld itch.

:26:45.:26:48.

I spoke after him when we both had our maiden speeches, he madd a

:26:49.:26:52.

thoughtful speech then and has done again today. May I commend the

:26:53.:27:01.

proposer of this motion for his excellent speech this morning? You

:27:02.:27:02.

has brought personal experidnce passion and even humour to ` very

:27:03.:27:10.

serious subject. -- he has. He will go down in history in assochation

:27:11.:27:14.

with this bill, but in any dvent he has gone down is in the ann`ls of

:27:15.:27:19.

this bill as the man who tr`nsformed Edwina Currie. Like the honourable

:27:20.:27:23.

member for East Dunbartonshhre, I was also born in the 60 's so I m

:27:24.:27:32.

clearly less well preserved. Like him, and preparing for this debate,

:27:33.:27:36.

I looked for the first time into the Wolfenden report. It was published

:27:37.:27:43.

11 years before was born. Circumstances it described lade it

:27:44.:27:46.

sound like a report produced in a previous century. As do the Brits

:27:47.:27:51.

preparations necessitated bx the laws of the time to allow g`y men in

:27:52.:27:56.

secret, using pseudonyms like Mr White and the doctor to present

:27:57.:28:00.

evidence on their behalf. The report is damning and it is also so humane

:28:01.:28:05.

that it is a wonder that it still took a further ten years for English

:28:06.:28:10.

law to be amended in 1967. H find it incredible that it was not tntil

:28:11.:28:23.

1980 that the law changed Scotland, still later in Northern Ireland

:28:24.:28:25.

Will he give way? Happily. Ht is a matter for regret that the law did

:28:26.:28:28.

not change in Scotland until 19 1, but for many years the Crown Office

:28:29.:28:31.

in Scotland had a policy of not prosecuting for these offences. I am

:28:32.:28:36.

not aware and I am grateful to be informed. It is extraordinary and I

:28:37.:28:39.

am pleased to hear that was the case. I know the honourable lady

:28:40.:28:43.

will think that symbolism is also important.

:28:44.:28:49.

That it was so long is an indictment in itself, but the laws passed in

:28:50.:28:57.

here in 67 started a long process which is still continuing and

:28:58.:29:02.

continued in 2015 with the Government's removal in the Armed

:29:03.:29:07.

Forces act as homosexuality as a reason for discharging a melber of

:29:08.:29:10.

the Armed Forces. I hope th`t changes in legislation had not just

:29:11.:29:14.

reflected a changing mood in the British people but, as the

:29:15.:29:17.

honourable lady from Central Ayrshire said, have reinforced and

:29:18.:29:21.

led a profound change for the better. By background, I am a

:29:22.:29:29.

historian. Even if much less professional than some of those that

:29:30.:29:33.

grace the benches of this House I would like to say that studxing

:29:34.:29:36.

British history produces nothing other than a cosy reassurance of the

:29:37.:29:41.

inevitable progress of a grdat nation. Improvements in economic,

:29:42.:29:46.

social and welfare provisions, a shift in sensibility, a growing

:29:47.:29:49.

liberal acceptance of differences and a humane application of the law.

:29:50.:29:56.

Well, to a point. But no ond can read social history but be `ppalled

:29:57.:30:00.

by the attitudes of our fordbears so often entrenched in laws passed by

:30:01.:30:05.

this House. Nowhere is historic injustice more apparent than in the

:30:06.:30:09.

attitude that in every aspect of life, the state had a role, indeed,

:30:10.:30:14.

an obligation to legislate for personal urology, an attitude

:30:15.:30:17.

Wolfenden had to fight to change. This had direct inhumane

:30:18.:30:22.

consequences such as the offences under discussion this morning, as

:30:23.:30:26.

well as indirect victims, pdrhaps most poignantly those affected by

:30:27.:30:36.

the incapacity laws. I was shocked by the speech from the membdr for

:30:37.:30:43.

Rhondda, not just that he w`s once a conservative but also shockdd about

:30:44.:30:46.

what he said about Neville Chamberlain, who I always r`ther

:30:47.:30:49.

admired. Neville Chamberlain came to this house to reform a challenging

:30:50.:30:56.

bit of legislation of its thme, laws on a legitimacy in 1920. Thd fact

:30:57.:31:01.

that he took the inhumane step of attacking his own backbenchdrs for

:31:02.:31:04.

being homosexual shocks me `nd is a case of double standards.

:31:05.:31:09.

We can wonder what our preddcessors were thinking about. It is perhaps

:31:10.:31:13.

more sobering to consider what our successors may think of us. These

:31:14.:31:19.

historic offences lead to a genuine and difficult dilemma. It is the

:31:20.:31:23.

role of this house to overttrn injustice, to condemn bad l`ws and

:31:24.:31:27.

lead the way against prejudhce. My fear in the past has been to attempt

:31:28.:31:31.

to address all the wrongs would be an all in compass thing and

:31:32.:31:34.

overwhelming burden for this House and may indeed prevent us from being

:31:35.:31:37.

a forward-looking chamber doing what is needful to build a modern country

:31:38.:31:42.

if we focus too much on redressing the problems of the old. Yot may be

:31:43.:31:47.

disappointed but I had hoped that those convicted of historic offence,

:31:48.:31:52.

while it would not heal the pain of conviction Nora practical ilpact,

:31:53.:31:57.

that the experience of having a criminal record, but the knowledge

:31:58.:32:00.

that Parliament had abolishdd the offences would providing itself

:32:01.:32:05.

sufficient sucker, or certahnly some sucker. -- sufficient succotr, or

:32:06.:32:16.

certainly some. There was an act in 2012, there is the proper process

:32:17.:32:20.

required through which the historic record should be amended. The second

:32:21.:32:25.

was the royal pardon granted to Alan Turing in 2013 by Her Majesty The

:32:26.:32:30.

Queen. That royal pardon was said at the time to be an exception`l case

:32:31.:32:36.

for a truly exceptional man. And no one could disagree. Here was a man

:32:37.:32:40.

who can lay claim to being one of the founders of the Modica `nd -

:32:41.:32:44.

modern technical age, his actions might have shortened the war by two

:32:45.:32:49.

years, saving tens if not htndreds of thousands of lives. The stakes

:32:50.:32:52.

were raised considerably by the honourable lady, I have no reason to

:32:53.:33:01.

challenge. And yet the statd he served so well confronted whth the

:33:02.:33:05.

choice of jail or chemical castration, a choice which lay well

:33:06.:33:09.

have led to his tragic earlx death. At the Royal pardon, which H fully

:33:10.:33:13.

endorse, gives rise to an obvious dilemma. There were many hundreds of

:33:14.:33:17.

exceptional men convicted of similar offences. There were more, perhaps,

:33:18.:33:22.

who were not exceptional, jtst normal, average people going about

:33:23.:33:26.

their lives. How can one be pardoned and not the rest? To say to anyone

:33:27.:33:36.

convicted of an offence that they have been subject to agree this

:33:37.:33:39.

historic injustice but they are not alone, for they are in honotred

:33:40.:33:41.

company, is one thing. As soon as you start removing the honotred

:33:42.:33:44.

company because they are solehow special, the argument falls. It was

:33:45.:33:48.

right and proper to recognise the injustice done to Alan Turing, it

:33:49.:33:52.

must therefore be right and proper to recognise the injustice done to

:33:53.:33:54.

others. I was therefore pleased that the

:33:55.:33:58.

manifesto on which I stood, I was going to quoted but it alre`dy has

:33:59.:34:01.

been by my honourable friend, the manifesto on which I stood lade it

:34:02.:34:04.

clear that the Conservative Party stood full square in seeking reform

:34:05.:34:09.

in this area. I welcome the fact that this commitment is being made

:34:10.:34:13.

real in the other place with amendments being made in colmittee

:34:14.:34:16.

to the Government is by polhcing and crime Bill by the normal -- noble

:34:17.:34:21.

lord Lord Sharkey, which thd Government supports and

:34:22.:34:28.

substantially reproduces cl`uses 32 C and 323.

:34:29.:34:33.

I am delighted that whether or not the bill we debate this morning does

:34:34.:34:37.

or does not make it to the statute books, we have the benefit of both

:34:38.:34:41.

belt and braces. Some good will come of this debate. I would congratulate

:34:42.:34:46.

again the honourable member for East Dunbartonshire for bringing forward

:34:47.:34:49.

this bill and would say that it is a generous act of the honourable

:34:50.:34:52.

gentlemen to use his slot to record legislation which would onlx impact

:34:53.:34:56.

England and Wales, which is therefore less likely to directly

:34:57.:34:59.

impact his own constituents, this speaks volumes to his commitment and

:35:00.:35:05.

passion for this subject. I understand that however

:35:06.:35:08.

well-intentioned the bill bdfore the house, the Government believes it

:35:09.:35:11.

suffers from technical flaws, particularly that pardons m`y

:35:12.:35:15.

automatically be granted to individuals who committed acts that

:35:16.:35:17.

remain illegal. I appreciatd that from my reading of the bill, the

:35:18.:35:22.

honourable proposal has attdmpted to address those concerns in clause one

:35:23.:35:27.

and four C, saying that offdnces would be excluded in the evdnt that

:35:28.:35:33.

they remain an offence on the date that the bill becomes law, `nd the

:35:34.:35:36.

bill makes clear the requirdment of consent.

:35:37.:35:42.

The Government's concern, as a understudy, is that offences which

:35:43.:35:44.

would automatically be pardoned might not have passed the tdst

:35:45.:35:48.

required under the 2012 disregard provisions. I appreciate thd

:35:49.:35:51.

Government has a difficult path to walk and would not wish to send the

:35:52.:35:55.

wrong message from this place, I'm sure it would not wish to ilpugn

:35:56.:35:59.

those seeking a pardon becatse of some isolated cases. I apprdciate

:36:00.:36:04.

the Sharkey amendment which could be amended in this place itself may be

:36:05.:36:08.

a lesson bon Accord glamorots way of securing the changes. I belheve that

:36:09.:36:12.

almost all of us want to sed them. It may be the most effectivd. Having

:36:13.:36:16.

said that, the member for E`st Dunbartonshire produced a Roach as

:36:17.:36:22.

to how the Government concerns might be addressed, and I look forward to

:36:23.:36:29.

the ministers winding up. Can I commend the honourabld member

:36:30.:36:32.

for East Dunbartonshire for bringing forward this bill. Can I

:36:33.:36:37.

particularly praise a number of speeches that we have heard in the

:36:38.:36:40.

chamber today. It is unfair to single people out, but I am going

:36:41.:36:44.

to, because I think there w`s a brilliant speeches in the chamber

:36:45.:36:49.

today and I will, if I may, highlights the honourable mdmber the

:36:50.:36:52.

East Dunbartonshire himself, the honourable member for Rhondda, my

:36:53.:36:55.

honourable friend the member for Milton Keynes South, and my

:36:56.:37:00.

honourable friend the member for Selby at Ainstree, all of whom, I

:37:01.:37:05.

thought, mate fantastic contributions to the debate in their

:37:06.:37:08.

own but different ways. Can I say from the start th`t

:37:09.:37:13.

despite my rather unfair reputation, I would say, I don't have any

:37:14.:37:21.

intention of taking the clock down to 2:30pm or anything of th`t. I am

:37:22.:37:27.

is keen to you from the minhster as I am sure everyone else's. But I

:37:28.:37:30.

think it is important that those of those who do not particularly

:37:31.:37:34.

support the bill have an opportunity to express why we don't. I think

:37:35.:37:38.

what we have heard in the ddbate today is that everyone agreds with

:37:39.:37:41.

the same sentiments, and I should make it clear from the word go that

:37:42.:37:46.

if we are talking about the principles involved as far `s I see

:37:47.:37:51.

them, should the fact that somebody was gay have ever been a crhme in

:37:52.:37:55.

any shape or form them quitd clearly the answer was no, of coursd not.

:37:56.:38:01.

Should we think any less of anybody ever convicted of any of thdse

:38:02.:38:06.

crimes, no, of course we should not. I would hope and believe th`t that

:38:07.:38:10.

is a sentiment that everybody in this house can take as read. The

:38:11.:38:15.

issue is whether or not we get into the issue of widespread and blanket

:38:16.:38:21.

pardon for these particular offences. As my honourable friend

:38:22.:38:26.

for Ireland and South Down said about the approach taken by the

:38:27.:38:29.

honourable member for Rush Cliff, it is not as simple as it looks.

:38:30.:38:35.

Unfortunately she has just left but I would like to put on record my

:38:36.:38:42.

praise for the intervention from the honourable lady from Livingston who

:38:43.:38:47.

I felt made one of the most valuable contributions in this debatd when

:38:48.:38:51.

she made the point to say... She made two very good points which can

:38:52.:38:54.

weigh heavily on the house. The first one was very powerful, should

:38:55.:39:00.

a gay person ever had to cole out? Of course they should not. People's

:39:01.:39:08.

sexual orientation is a reldvant. When we get to the stage in this

:39:09.:39:12.

country that it is an irreldvance, that cannot come soon enough, in my

:39:13.:39:16.

opinion, it should be irreldvant what anyone's sexual orient`tion is

:39:17.:39:20.

and I look forward to the d`y, as she does, when nobody should ever

:39:21.:39:23.

have to come out as being g`y. The second point that she m`de in

:39:24.:39:27.

relation to the bill, which I think is very powerful and somethhng that

:39:28.:39:31.

the Government might wish to consider, I would not say it has

:39:32.:39:34.

changed my mind about the bhll but it certainly has weighed he`vily,

:39:35.:39:40.

she did say that this bill going through its second reading `nd going

:39:41.:39:43.

into committee and coming b`ck from a report stage and a third reading

:39:44.:39:46.

would inevitably mean that these issues would gain more scrutiny in

:39:47.:39:52.

the House than a fan amendmdnt was simply accepted in the Housd of

:39:53.:39:55.

Lords and came back into thd House of Commons for maybe an hour's

:39:56.:40:00.

debate maximum, two I was m`ybe you're not even that sometiles. It

:40:01.:40:05.

was, in effect, mod -- nodddd through without scrutiny. I think

:40:06.:40:10.

there is some relevance in that point. It might be something that

:40:11.:40:15.

the Government might not want to consider, I had not really given it

:40:16.:40:18.

much thought before but I thought she made that point very well.

:40:19.:40:22.

I must say, when I first he`rd about this bill my initial reaction was to

:40:23.:40:26.

think that it sounded as if it was a bill that should be titled The

:40:27.:40:33.

Rewriting Of History Bill. That is a concept with which I am not

:40:34.:40:41.

generally comfortable. Therd are plenty of ugly, evil, wrong things

:40:42.:40:45.

that have happened in the p`st, but they are what they are. It hs very

:40:46.:40:50.

easy for us in this House to criticise people who were in this

:40:51.:40:54.

House in the past, very easx. I did it at the start of my speech by

:40:55.:40:58.

saying that these things ard being a crime. But I would say, Mad`m Deputy

:40:59.:41:02.

Speaker, there will be things that we pass in this House today which we

:41:03.:41:06.

all pass with the best of intentions that in 100 years' time, no doubt

:41:07.:41:12.

members of Parliament then will come along and say, do you know what it

:41:13.:41:16.

is disgusting that they passed those particular offences at that time and

:41:17.:41:20.

they should be... They should have been ashamed for doing that. And I

:41:21.:41:24.

think that we should always be slightly wary of imposing otr modern

:41:25.:41:29.

day judgments on the past. H think it is an easy thing to do btt I

:41:30.:41:34.

don't think it is necessarily always fire to the people who make

:41:35.:41:37.

decisions on what they thought were the best interests of the country at

:41:38.:41:41.

the time. We thought they wdre wrong, RBC, but they thought they

:41:42.:41:43.

were doing what was right. H will give way.

:41:44.:41:48.

Does he not think we should be a bit more concerned with people still

:41:49.:41:55.

alive and suffering, rather than our own vainglory in the future when we

:41:56.:42:00.

are dead! Well, I was going to get onto that point because the

:42:01.:42:04.

honourable member made a fahr point. If she will forgive me, I whll get

:42:05.:42:09.

onto that in a second, becatse he did make a fair point. I thhnk we

:42:10.:42:13.

should be wary, Madam Deputx Speaker, that we do not get into a

:42:14.:42:18.

habit in this house which e`ch - we appear to be getting into, where we

:42:19.:42:22.

always apologise for things other people have done in the past. Unlike

:42:23.:42:27.

Mike honourable friend for Selby who was clearly a notable exception I

:42:28.:42:33.

very rarely apologise for the things we have done and I suspect the

:42:34.:42:37.

public are keen for us to apologise for the mistakes we have made rather

:42:38.:42:41.

than the easy option of the mistakes people made hundreds of years ago. I

:42:42.:42:47.

take Tony Blair as an example, very keen to apologise for slavery from

:42:48.:42:51.

somebody else hundreds of ydars previously but did not apologise for

:42:52.:42:57.

the war in Iraq. More peopld would have bought it with well to

:42:58.:43:00.

apologise for the decisions he took rather than those many years

:43:01.:43:05.

previously. I don't like generally that particular approach to

:43:06.:43:11.

politics. And I do think he was chastised slightly for it, but my

:43:12.:43:14.

honourable friend for Cardiff North was absolutely right to slightly

:43:15.:43:19.

pull up our friends from thd Scottish Nationalist party for

:43:20.:43:22.

coming here and chastising the Minister for being very latd in the

:43:23.:43:26.

day and going very slow and the rest of it when this bill introdtced only

:43:27.:43:32.

applies to England and Wales, the Minister is going virtually all the

:43:33.:43:38.

way the SNP would like. An `wful long way to meet their requdsts I

:43:39.:43:42.

would have thought it churlhsh of them not to give him more credit for

:43:43.:43:48.

that. Whereas the Scottish Administration in Scotland hs not

:43:49.:43:52.

introducing this law when it has had plenty of opportunity, it would be

:43:53.:43:58.

interesting to do a Freedom of Information request to see how many

:43:59.:44:02.

letters the Scottish governlent have received from SNP MPs about

:44:03.:44:04.

introducing this law in the Scottish Parliament. I think they should be

:44:05.:44:09.

wary of criticising the govdrnment when the government has gond an

:44:10.:44:14.

awful lot further than the SNP administration has in Scotl`nd. And

:44:15.:44:17.

a bit of humility on that p`rticular point would not have gone a mess.

:44:18.:44:23.

And in terms of the substance, I said the honourable member for East

:44:24.:44:26.

Dunbartonshire made a good point when he said it was a good

:44:27.:44:31.

rhetorical flourish but it was a very good point when he said surely

:44:32.:44:34.

we should be more concerned about the living than the dead. Dtring his

:44:35.:44:40.

speech. And I think there is something in that. I think that the

:44:41.:44:45.

problem is when you start going down this route, it becomes very

:44:46.:44:50.

difficult to try and stop the juggernaut in its process. @nd I

:44:51.:44:55.

think where people try and draw distinctions becomes very dhfficult.

:44:56.:45:03.

For example, once you have pardoned Alan Turing and I have not heard

:45:04.:45:06.

anybody say that should not have happened, it then becomes an

:45:07.:45:09.

intellectual nonsense to deprive that same pardon the other people

:45:10.:45:15.

convicted of exactly the sale offences, but just did not happen to

:45:16.:45:23.

have as exciting and achievd as much in their lives outside, in their

:45:24.:45:31.

job. Because of course, the sexuality of people is absolutely

:45:32.:45:35.

irrelevant to the achievements of Dr Alan Turing. It should not be

:45:36.:45:38.

because of his achievements that he got a pardon, he was pardondd for

:45:39.:45:42.

something that was irrelevant, as far as I can see, to his

:45:43.:45:46.

achievements. If he is pardoned for that, it becomes very difficult not

:45:47.:45:53.

to pardon the people. Of cotrse I think the point of the honotrable

:45:54.:45:56.

gentleman for East Dunbartonshire rightly was making is once the

:45:57.:46:00.

government have accepted thd point that people who are deceased should

:46:01.:46:04.

be pardoned, it then becomes very difficult intellectually to argue,

:46:05.:46:07.

why should that not apply to people still alive? It is a very b`d point

:46:08.:46:12.

and I look forward to hearing the Minister's ancestor that issue.

:46:13.:46:23.

He describes it as a juggernaut But as my honourable friend madd clear,

:46:24.:46:28.

given this is a victimless crime, what possible harm could it do,

:46:29.:46:33.

rather than good, to pardon people who were in essence committdd no

:46:34.:46:40.

crime at all? I don't disagree with the sentiment and I made th`t point

:46:41.:46:46.

at the beginning. My point hs this, the honourable gentleman with this

:46:47.:46:52.

particular bill has selected a certain group of offences. Now,

:46:53.:46:56.

there are many offences and my Arab friend for Calder Valley made this

:46:57.:47:00.

point during his speech and it is a very fair point -- my honourable

:47:01.:47:04.

friend. Other offences have been committed. What I would call also

:47:05.:47:09.

victimless crimes that people have committed in the past the honourable

:47:10.:47:15.

gentleman says from a sedentary position, such as? The metrhc

:47:16.:47:25.

martyrs is a prime example. Steve Cockburn has since died with a

:47:26.:47:31.

criminal conviction was selling produce in imperial measures. That,

:47:32.:47:37.

I would argue to the honour`ble gentleman, is a victimless crime,

:47:38.:47:41.

the customers were happy, hd was happy, no victim. He got a criminal

:47:42.:47:46.

conviction and he died with that. He still has a criminal conviction It

:47:47.:47:51.

has not been posthumously p`rdoned. And I would gently say this is the

:47:52.:47:56.

point about the juggernaut H am talking about, is that if the

:47:57.:48:03.

bill... If the honourable gdntleman wants to intervene, I am happy to

:48:04.:48:09.

give way. I am sorry, Madam Deputy Speaker, I am struggling with the

:48:10.:48:12.

honourable gentleman's conndction between the metric martyrs who I

:48:13.:48:17.

don't recall where chemically castrated, arrested or torttred And

:48:18.:48:22.

perhaps he will remain to bd of that detail I have forgotten? I was not

:48:23.:48:26.

aware the honourable gentlelan's bill only apply to people chemically

:48:27.:48:30.

castrated and tortured. Is he now saying that is what the bill applies

:48:31.:48:35.

to you? The point he is makhng is a complete nonsense and he must know

:48:36.:48:40.

that. I was responding to an intervention from his honourable

:48:41.:48:43.

friend who said, are there `ny examples of victimless crimds where

:48:44.:48:47.

people having, no record th`t has not been pardoned? I gave a very

:48:48.:48:53.

good example. I should say his honourable friend was nodding in

:48:54.:48:55.

agreement when I gave him the example. So if the bill, thhs is the

:48:56.:49:06.

thrust. If the bill... I am very sorry that the SNP have become so

:49:07.:49:09.

dominant in Scotland that they are not used to hearing alternative

:49:10.:49:13.

opinions and I am sorry that they are so intolerant of anybodx who

:49:14.:49:18.

holds a different opinion to them. It doesn't reflect well of them My

:49:19.:49:23.

point is I think the bill would have been easier to justify if it had

:49:24.:49:28.

included all the fences which in the past, all convictions in thd past,

:49:29.:49:32.

which are now no longer criles that were victimless -- offences. That

:49:33.:49:38.

would be logical. It is verx difficult to only pick out certain

:49:39.:49:43.

crimes to justify that, rather than all people who have convicthons for

:49:44.:49:47.

those kind of offences. And there are others that have alreadx been

:49:48.:49:51.

discussed. I will give way. Genuinely grateful for giving way.

:49:52.:49:56.

At the beginning of his contribution, he did warn us we

:49:57.:50:00.

might not be listening to one of his lengthy contributions and hd would

:50:01.:50:05.

sit down in order to enable the front bench to argue their point.

:50:06.:50:10.

Can I ask when that might bd? How long he thinks he might be? Simply

:50:11.:50:16.

because I want to put on record very forcefully our front bench's support

:50:17.:50:20.

for this bill. And I am worried that I will not be able to get to my feet

:50:21.:50:25.

in order to do so! Madam Deputy Speaker, we have got

:50:26.:50:29.

one hour and five minutes ldft of the debate, I think about three

:50:30.:50:32.

hours was taken up by peopld speaking in favour of the bhll. I

:50:33.:50:37.

feel that I think at least four or five interventions in my brhef

:50:38.:50:43.

comments so far... If the honourable lady... If people don't intdrvene on

:50:44.:50:47.

my speech, I can clearly get through it a bit quicker, but I think it

:50:48.:50:53.

would be a sad state of aff`irs is the only speech is allowed to be

:50:54.:50:57.

heard in a debate with thosd in favour of a particular bill, that

:50:58.:51:01.

would be a sad state of our democracy that is what she hs

:51:02.:51:05.

arguing. She has put on record has support, if she wants to spdak more,

:51:06.:51:10.

she's very welcome. I will conclude, but it is the concerns my rhght

:51:11.:51:14.

honourable friend for Rushcliffe Haddin government that we wdre told

:51:15.:51:18.

about by our right honourable friend, that they are given a

:51:19.:51:24.

hearing. This does open, legislation of this type, even what the

:51:25.:51:29.

government have agreed to in the Lords, does open up a possibility

:51:30.:51:35.

and probability and certainly justification for pardoning of the

:51:36.:51:38.

people who have been convicted of other crimes, now no longer criminal

:51:39.:51:44.

offences, that we do not believe should be criminal offences.

:51:45.:51:47.

Especially where they were `lso victimless. And I hope the Linister,

:51:48.:51:51.

in his remarks, will address this particular point as to whether or

:51:52.:51:55.

not the government intends to go further down this line or whether it

:51:56.:52:01.

intends to finish here with these particular offences and if so, what

:52:02.:52:06.

the logic of that is? For example, there are people who have attempted

:52:07.:52:12.

to commit suicide who are gtilty of a criminal offence. Do we think that

:52:13.:52:17.

they should be given a pardon? Are they not worthy of a pardon? These

:52:18.:52:22.

things, I don't see why we should cherry pick certain offences, there

:52:23.:52:27.

is a range of other offences that could also be added on and H think

:52:28.:52:30.

people should be able to express those particular views. Mad`m Deputy

:52:31.:52:37.

Speaker, in conclusion of mx remarks, because I did promhse to

:52:38.:52:42.

you and the House that I did not intend to speak for a great length

:52:43.:52:46.

of time. I think we all agrde with the sentiment behind the bill. And I

:52:47.:52:54.

reiterate, should these offdnces referred to in the Bill ever have

:52:55.:52:59.

been crimes, then obviously not Should we think anything less of the

:53:00.:53:03.

people convicted of these crimes? No, we should not. But we c`nnot

:53:04.:53:09.

just have laws in this housd passed on with the sentiment alone and we

:53:10.:53:15.

cannot just have them past `s we have heard in every single speech I

:53:16.:53:20.

think so far based on sending a signal, or sending some kind of

:53:21.:53:25.

message. That is not the purpose... If we want to send a messagd and a

:53:26.:53:30.

signal, that is done by makhng a speech. Passing legislation is a

:53:31.:53:33.

very different things. The puestion is whether or not this is the right

:53:34.:53:39.

kind of legislation to pass, where we go over these cases. What I want

:53:40.:53:44.

the Minister to address espdcially in his speech is how easy it will be

:53:45.:53:50.

to go through every single case in order to ascertain whether or not

:53:51.:53:57.

what was actually committed at the time still constitutes an offence.

:53:58.:54:01.

For example, there are cert`in things that constitute an offence

:54:02.:54:05.

still today in terms of acthvities done in public. How will we know

:54:06.:54:10.

looking back over the records whether or not the offence was in

:54:11.:54:14.

public and therefore would still be an offence today? If it wasn't

:54:15.:54:19.

relevant to the prosecution at the time, it may not have been locked. I

:54:20.:54:23.

hope the Minister can explahn the difficulties of this becausd we

:54:24.:54:26.

should not underestimate thd practical difficulties. When we

:54:27.:54:30.

passed legislation, we pass practical things that have to

:54:31.:54:34.

happen, not with his sentimdnts and I hope we will reflect on the

:54:35.:54:38.

detail. If the builders go to committee, can I just say this to

:54:39.:54:41.

the honourable gentleman for East Dunbartonshire? -- if the bhll does.

:54:42.:54:46.

If it does go back to a report stage, I hope he will does dngage

:54:47.:54:52.

genuinely with people who do not disagree with his sentiment, but do

:54:53.:54:57.

have issues about the practhcal application of the legislathon. In

:54:58.:55:00.

the detail, I can see he has tried to address some of those pohnts I

:55:01.:55:05.

acknowledge that and I can see that. I hope he will accept, unlike some

:55:06.:55:17.

of his sedentary, this commdntary, we appreciate the detail but it is

:55:18.:55:20.

important the detail is right and we are doing this for the right reason

:55:21.:55:24.

and not just to send a mess`ge and four gesture politics and to make us

:55:25.:55:29.

look good and feel good. Th`t is not the purpose of legislation hn this

:55:30.:55:33.

house, so I hope you will engage constructively with people who do

:55:34.:55:37.

hold a different opinion, bdcause we all share the same sentiment. And

:55:38.:55:43.

again, she is back in a place where I want to tell the honourable member

:55:44.:55:47.

for Livingston that I thought her intervention in the debate was

:55:48.:55:49.

absolutely fantastic and thd Minister I hope will address the

:55:50.:55:53.

point that she raised in her intervention that actually, we can

:55:54.:55:56.

maybe consider this bill in more detail if this goes through the

:55:57.:56:01.

committee, rather than just accepting a Lords amendment which

:56:02.:56:04.

gets virtually no scrutiny hn this house.

:56:05.:56:10.

Thank you. I think it is fahr to say that we have has an extensive debate

:56:11.:56:19.

this morning and we have he`rd many excellent features. My honotrable

:56:20.:56:31.

friend the member for Shipldy picked out four. I agree with all those. I

:56:32.:56:36.

particularly want to say how much I enjoyed the speech from the Right

:56:37.:56:39.

Honourable member opposite from Rhondda. I thought it was both

:56:40.:56:44.

entertaining, moving and very informative. I am sure the whole

:56:45.:56:49.

house enjoyed it. Madam Deptty Speaker, let me start by genuinely

:56:50.:56:54.

congratulating the honourable member for East Dunbartonshire on winning

:56:55.:57:00.

the private members ballot process. Some members who have been hn the

:57:01.:57:06.

house many more years than he has had entered for many years without

:57:07.:57:11.

having the success that he has had. It was mention that without wanting

:57:12.:57:16.

to sour that genuine note of congratulation that the Bill was

:57:17.:57:22.

published very late in the day. I do hope that when the time comds that

:57:23.:57:27.

the House does I accept, as I believe the Government have done,

:57:28.:57:34.

the proposal recommended from the procedure committee... Yes, I will

:57:35.:57:39.

certainly give way. I thank the honourable member for giving way so

:57:40.:57:43.

early in his speech. A numbdr of questions have been asked in terms

:57:44.:57:49.

of the blanket pardon, why doesn't the Government just go ahead and do

:57:50.:57:53.

it? The reason for it, I wotld like to put this on record because I

:57:54.:57:58.

understand... Is that the crime was gross indecency. There are lany

:57:59.:58:03.

other crimes which are being committed at a much higher level.

:58:04.:58:08.

You could be granting pardon to people who ostensibly were guilty of

:58:09.:58:13.

gross indecency, some of those elements are still crimes to date,

:58:14.:58:18.

that go far beyond the scopd of this bill. That is why the Government is

:58:19.:58:23.

proposing a disregard process to go through followed by a statutory

:58:24.:58:29.

pardon. I don't think that intervention

:58:30.:58:33.

called for a response from le, the minister wanted to place th`t on

:58:34.:58:38.

record and he has done so. Hf I can just finished the remark th`t I was

:58:39.:58:42.

making and I do hope that when the time comes the House feels `ble to

:58:43.:58:47.

support the recommendation of the procedure committee is, I understand

:58:48.:58:50.

the Government has already `ccepted the recommendation and the deadline

:58:51.:58:55.

for printing will be brought forward to the Wednesday of the week prior

:58:56.:58:59.

to the day of the second re`ding. Madam Deputy Speaker, I think that

:59:00.:59:06.

the irony of the fact that `s the member for Glasgow South relinded

:59:07.:59:11.

us, the first-ever private lembers bill brought by a member of the

:59:12.:59:15.

Scottish National Party onlx extends to England and Wales will not be

:59:16.:59:22.

lost on anyone. I think it hs a smart move by the honourabld member

:59:23.:59:25.

for East Dunbartonshire, because it sends the signal, and this bill has

:59:26.:59:32.

been all about sending sign`ls, this bill sends the signal that

:59:33.:59:35.

everything in East Dunbartonshire must be fantastic, there must be no

:59:36.:59:40.

problems in East Dunbartonshire that require legislative solution and

:59:41.:59:47.

thousands of people will be rushing to live in his constituency. So ..

:59:48.:59:58.

Madam Deputy Speaker, it is worth considering that the situathon in

:59:59.:00:03.

Scotland is very different from that in England and Wales, as we know.

:00:04.:00:08.

The criminal law operates on a different basis. A lecturer in

:00:09.:00:17.

economic and social history at the University of Glasgow published an

:00:18.:00:23.

article on the 23rd of Febrtary last year on the website Queer Scotland,

:00:24.:00:28.

a website specialising in articles on the hip... History and ctlture of

:00:29.:00:35.

the Lesbian and gay community in Scotland, that article was titled

:00:36.:00:42.

The 49,000: Pardons And Homosexual Offences, A Scottish Perspective.

:00:43.:00:47.

The 49,000 figure that he rdfers to was an estimate of men prosdcuted

:00:48.:00:52.

for gross indecency and othdr historic crimes. The professor

:00:53.:00:57.

wrote, I quote, unlike what occurred in England, there were relatively

:00:58.:01:02.

few successful prosecutions for private consensual sex betwden

:01:03.:01:07.

adults males north of the border during the 20th century. Indeed it

:01:08.:01:12.

was a policy of successive Lord Advocate in Scotland not to

:01:13.:01:15.

prosecute private and sexual sex between men. -- private consensual

:01:16.:01:23.

sex. Does this mean no one were prosecuted in Scotland on account of

:01:24.:01:27.

being gay? As the professor points out, the main focus of the law was

:01:28.:01:32.

upon men who engaged in sex in public 's pages, in cottages,

:01:33.:01:36.

tenement closes, parks and len who sold sex on the streets of

:01:37.:01:40.

Scotland's urban centres. This was not the result of liberal thinking

:01:41.:01:45.

but chiefly the result of evidential requirements under Scots law. Order.

:01:46.:01:53.

The question is that the qudstion been output. As many of our VAT

:01:54.:02:01.

opinion say aye. Of the country no. Division, clear the lobby. ,- as

:02:02.:02:09.

many as are of that opinion say aye. Of the contrary, no. Division, clear

:02:10.:02:14.

the lobby. The question is that the qudstion

:02:15.:03:09.

been output. As many of that opinion say aye. Of the country no. Tellers

:03:10.:03:17.

for the ayes? Oh and Thomson and Mike Weir, tellers for the noes

:03:18.:03:30.

Philip Davies and David Nuttall -- Owen Thompson and Mike Weir.

:03:31.:10:06.

Order order. The ice to the right 57 and those to the left zero. The ayes

:10:07.:12:56.

to the right 57, the noes to the left is zero. Fewer than 100 members

:12:57.:13:01.

voted and the question has not been decided in the affirmative. Unlock!

:13:02.:13:12.

David Nuttall. Thank you very much indeed, Madam Deputy Speaker. I am

:13:13.:13:20.

grateful that the House has decided that it wishes to hear some more

:13:21.:13:31.

from me this morning! And I will try and keep my remarks short

:13:32.:13:37.

nevertheless. I cannot understand why the House wanted to try and end

:13:38.:13:43.

my speech. I do have one or two specific things to say about the

:13:44.:13:47.

bill before we hear from thd Minister, as I am sure the dntire

:13:48.:13:54.

house wishes to do before vdry long. Like my honourable friend the member

:13:55.:14:01.

for Shipley, I think my prilary concern about this bill is that it

:14:02.:14:09.

attempts to rewrite history. And as we have heard a number of mdmbers

:14:10.:14:15.

say, there have been many things which have happened in our history

:14:16.:14:22.

about which we all wish had not happened, but we have to take

:14:23.:14:27.

history as we find it. We h`ve two accent that the past was as it was

:14:28.:14:32.

and is not how we perhaps would have it if we could rewrite that history

:14:33.:14:40.

-- we have to accept. I also think that this bill is unnecessary in

:14:41.:14:50.

many regards. Because I don't think we should assume that everybody who

:14:51.:14:59.

is gay thinks that this bill is a good idea. Mention was made earlier

:15:00.:15:14.

by the proposer of the bill, George Montagu, the gay rights campaigner

:15:15.:15:21.

and author. He has said, I will not accept a pardon. To accept ` pardon

:15:22.:15:30.

means to accept you were guhlty I was not guilty of anything. I was

:15:31.:15:36.

only guilty of being in the wrong place, at the wrong time. Mx name

:15:37.:15:41.

was on the queer list which the police had in those days and I will

:15:42.:15:48.

not accept a pardon. I think it was wrong to give Alan Turing, one of

:15:49.:15:54.

the heroes of my life, a pardon What was he guilty of? He w`s guilty

:15:55.:16:00.

of the same they say I was guilty of. Being born only able to fall in

:16:01.:16:10.

love with another man. Now, Mr Montague cannot be, I am sure, the

:16:11.:16:17.

only gay man who takes this view. There must be others. And so are we

:16:18.:16:26.

are going to force a pardon on someone who does not want to be

:16:27.:16:34.

pardoned? There is also the crucial difference between a disreg`rd and a

:16:35.:16:43.

pardon. The aim of a disreg`rd is to treat the individual concerned for

:16:44.:16:50.

all purposes in law as if hd had not committed the offence or bedn

:16:51.:17:00.

convicted of it. Of course, this raises the issue as to whether

:17:01.:17:11.

someone who has applied for a disregard, and the latest

:17:12.:17:16.

information has revealed in a response to a Parliamentary question

:17:17.:17:23.

that between October 2012 and April 2016, a total of 242 individuals had

:17:24.:17:32.

made disregard applications in respect of some 370 cases. Because

:17:33.:17:40.

some individuals applied for a disregard in respect of mord than

:17:41.:17:47.

one case. Of these 317, 83 were accepted for a disregard and 23

:17:48.:17:53.

rejected and one was still pending resolution when the responsd from

:17:54.:18:01.

the government was given. Btt in view of the definition of what

:18:02.:18:05.

happens when somebody successfully applies for a disregard, it does

:18:06.:18:12.

raise the question as to whdther or not, if this bill becomes l`w,

:18:13.:18:19.

whether or not the automatic pardon would apply to them. And those

:18:20.:18:28.

proposing the bill may wish to give consideration of clarifying that

:18:29.:18:31.

aspect. I hope I am not been difficult or awkward, I think this

:18:32.:18:35.

is a genuine point that it light be worth clarifying on the facd of the

:18:36.:18:41.

bill whether or not the pardon would apply to those who have alrdady been

:18:42.:18:47.

accepted for a strategy disregard. And this Dame -- a statutorx

:18:48.:18:54.

disregard, and the same applies to the proposal that the Minister wants

:18:55.:18:58.

to bring forward in the othdr place. It was not clear when I read the

:18:59.:19:06.

press release whether or not those who apply for a disregard whll be

:19:07.:19:14.

granted an automatic pardon, or will they be given the option of ticking

:19:15.:19:19.

a box on the application form to say yes, I also want a pardon? Because

:19:20.:19:24.

there could be other people like Mr Montague who would say, I w`nt the

:19:25.:19:28.

disregard, but I don't want the pardon because I do not accdpt that

:19:29.:19:37.

I did anything wrong. There are many more things that could be s`id about

:19:38.:19:42.

this, this morning, Madam Ddputy Speaker. But I said I would allow

:19:43.:19:50.

time to hear from the front benches. And I intend to do that, Madam

:19:51.:19:56.

Deputy Speaker. And I look forward to hearing what the Minister has to

:19:57.:20:03.

say. Fabulous, thank you. I had written a

:20:04.:20:12.

much longer and obviously vdry well crafted speech, with huge pdarls of

:20:13.:20:16.

wisdom and eloquence, but as I really do want to give the Linister

:20:17.:20:20.

and opportunity not only to be heard, but I hope to even at this

:20:21.:20:28.

very late stage accept this bill or at the very least indicate that he

:20:29.:20:34.

will go from this house tod`y and engaging genuine discussions about

:20:35.:20:37.

amendment to the bill that will make it acceptable to the governlent I

:20:38.:20:42.

am not going to speak for as long as I had intended. I will say `t the

:20:43.:20:46.

outset that I am so many more people, not only in this hotse, but

:20:47.:20:52.

elsewhere, will be disappointed that is too small a word, if the

:20:53.:20:58.

government does not show itself to understand what is being spoken

:20:59.:21:02.

about today and make a genuhne effort to meet those concerned.

:21:03.:21:07.

Because roughly 75,000 men were prosecuted for gross indecency

:21:08.:21:14.

between 1885, and the parti`l legislation for homosexuality, for

:21:15.:21:21.

the legalisation of homosextality in 1967. Thousands more had to live

:21:22.:21:25.

their lives in secrecy and fear to hide who they were for risk of

:21:26.:21:31.

prosecution. It was just inhumane and unjust. The pain caused by these

:21:32.:21:36.

indecent laws can never be tndone and the relationship and lives lost

:21:37.:21:41.

can never be recovered. But this bill does do what we can do and that

:21:42.:21:46.

is the partly correct a gre`t injustice. This bill grants a pardon

:21:47.:21:52.

to those convicted of sexual offences, for acts that are no

:21:53.:21:59.

longer criminalised. It is our way of recognising that we made a

:22:00.:22:04.

mistake, that we have caused trauma amongst innocent people, th`t we

:22:05.:22:10.

have ruined lives. It is our inadequate though it may be only way

:22:11.:22:16.

of saying sorry. We have he`rd many moving tributes today, both to Alan

:22:17.:22:23.

Turing and two others, about the laws that drove him and othdrs to

:22:24.:22:30.

their death. And it is rightly a source of national sadness. But Alan

:22:31.:22:35.

Turing was just one wronged gay man among thousands. The British state

:22:36.:22:41.

owes an apology and a pardon to the ordinary men who worked crilinalised

:22:42.:22:45.

of being who they were, just as much as it owed an apology to Al`n

:22:46.:22:50.

Turing. After all, we apologised to Alan Turing not only becausd he is a

:22:51.:22:54.

national hero, although he puite clearly is, because he patents we

:22:55.:23:00.

did nothing wrong. To be fahr to the government, in the past, thdy have

:23:01.:23:02.

recognised that these convictions were wrong. They grant and the

:23:03.:23:07.

pardon the Turing and in 2002, they passed the protection of frdedoms

:23:08.:23:11.

act which allows those with convictions under these inddcent

:23:12.:23:14.

laws to apply for their conviction to be disregarded. And effectively

:23:15.:23:19.

expunged from the record, so long as their application is approvdd. By

:23:20.:23:24.

the Secretary of State. This disregard scheme was a welcome

:23:25.:23:29.

development, as it allowed those prosecuted under these supplies laws

:23:30.:23:32.

to apply for work without the blight of a criminal record but it simply

:23:33.:23:37.

does not go far enough. The scheme replies upon the victim of `n

:23:38.:23:45.

injustice making an application themselves. Relatives of thd

:23:46.:23:50.

deceased cannot make applic`tions on the behalf of their family lembers

:23:51.:23:55.

and now the can the deceased obviously apply for a disregard

:23:56.:23:59.

themselves. It is therefore of no use to families of the 50,000 men

:24:00.:24:06.

prosecuted of gross indecency who are now deceased and the Minister

:24:07.:24:11.

must know that the pain of things like this exists within famhlies for

:24:12.:24:18.

long after the events themsdlves and that sometimes, families nedd the

:24:19.:24:25.

closure that this bill would allow. This disregard scheme also puts the

:24:26.:24:29.

onus on those living to go out and apply for their conviction to be

:24:30.:24:33.

disregarded and I want to stress that for many, going through the

:24:34.:24:39.

disregard process opens up so many old wounds. And reminds thel of a

:24:40.:24:45.

time in their life they may well wish to put behind them. I hmagine

:24:46.:24:49.

that the rake up that old htrt and pain and humiliation and fe`r is not

:24:50.:24:54.

something that they wish to do at this time in their lives. It must be

:24:55.:24:59.

enormously stressful, I think the onus should be on the legislators to

:25:00.:25:05.

take action, because it was the law that was wrong. The bill before us

:25:06.:25:13.

deals with this problem. Cl`use two grants a pardon automatically to all

:25:14.:25:17.

those convicted of a list of sexual offences that have since bedn

:25:18.:25:22.

repealed. It is really important that the Minister grasps thhs.

:25:23.:25:28.

Clause three will allow famhly members of the this -- dece`se to

:25:29.:25:35.

apply for this regard. If the result is passed and everyone

:25:36.:25:39.

convicted under these laws would be pardoned, whether living or

:25:40.:25:42.

deceased, all could go throtgh the disregard process if a family member

:25:43.:25:47.

wish to pursue it. On Wednesday the Government signed an amendmdnt to

:25:48.:25:51.

the policing and crime Bill in the Lords which would achieve most but

:25:52.:25:58.

not all of these things. Thd Lords amendment tabled by Lord Sh`rkey

:25:59.:26:03.

would grant a pardon to all the decease to have been charged under

:26:04.:26:08.

the relevant offences, but not, and this is crucial, to the livhng. The

:26:09.:26:13.

living under this Government 's Mac amendment would have to apply for

:26:14.:26:17.

this regard, and only then would they be granted a pardon. The onus

:26:18.:26:22.

would be placed right back on the victims of injustice which, I worry,

:26:23.:26:30.

rather reduces the quality of the apology being offered.

:26:31.:26:33.

The minister explained the Government 's Mike approach to the

:26:34.:26:37.

press, saying a blanket pardon without the detailed investhgations

:26:38.:26:41.

carried out by the Home Offhce under the disregard process could see

:26:42.:26:45.

people guilty of an offence which is still a crime today claiming to be

:26:46.:26:49.

pardoned. This would cause `n extraordinary and unnecessary amount

:26:50.:26:54.

of distress to victims. I know that all of us in thhs house

:26:55.:27:00.

would not want to pardon anx guilty of serious sexual offences. However,

:27:01.:27:05.

I must say I am a little confused by the Government's reasoning. The way

:27:06.:27:09.

that the private members bill is currently drafted relies upon a list

:27:10.:27:13.

of sexual offences for which someone is granted a pardon. All of them are

:27:14.:27:21.

no longer crimes. It also contains a separate clause clearly stating I

:27:22.:27:26.

quote again, nothing in this act is to be interpreted as pardonhng,

:27:27.:27:33.

disregarding or in any other way affecting portions, convicthons

:27:34.:27:38.

sentences or any other consdquences or convictions or cautions or

:27:39.:27:42.

conduct or behaviour that is unlawful on the date that the act

:27:43.:27:46.

comes into force. It is therefore not clear to me how,

:27:47.:27:51.

given these safeguards, the bill would lead to those guilty of an

:27:52.:27:56.

offence which is still a crhme today being pardoned.

:27:57.:27:59.

Unless the minister merely leans to say that people would be able to

:28:00.:28:03.

falsely and deceptively clahmed to have been pardons when they are in

:28:04.:28:10.

fact, not pardoned. Yeah. Thank you for giving way up points.

:28:11.:28:15.

The thing that is not clear about what she was saying to me,

:28:16.:28:20.

personally, is it simply has been convicted of having underagd sex,

:28:21.:28:27.

for example, how from a previous conviction today can we detdrmine

:28:28.:28:32.

whether that is still a crile? Anybody that is having sex with a

:28:33.:28:35.

minor today is still a crimd, however that would not be clear from

:28:36.:28:41.

past criminal activity. The bill is really clear th`t if an

:28:42.:28:46.

offence is still an offence today there will be no pardon. Having sex

:28:47.:28:51.

with someone who was underage is still an offence. So that mdans

:28:52.:28:58.

quite clearly, quite clearlx, that anybody who has committed an offence

:28:59.:29:02.

that is still an offence today would not be pardoned. But I would say to

:29:03.:29:06.

the honourable gentlemen, and not take again because I am comhng to a

:29:07.:29:10.

conclusion, I genuinely think we should hear from the ministdr, but I

:29:11.:29:15.

would say to the honourable gentleman that it is not sufficient

:29:16.:29:20.

to warrant a rejection of the bill. I really do think that what we

:29:21.:29:25.

should be doing is taking this bill through committee. If there are

:29:26.:29:29.

genuine problems with the wording of the bill is can be amended. If what

:29:30.:29:34.

the honourable gentleman is raising as an issue remains an issud, it can

:29:35.:29:39.

be amended. That is what thd committee and report stages for and

:29:40.:29:43.

that is what we do hear all the time. If this bill is imperfect

:29:44.:29:48.

let's perfect it. Let's do ht in committee. That is where we do

:29:49.:29:53.

things like this. I can't sde why this bill is any different. We don't

:29:54.:30:01.

any of us disagree with the principles in this bill. Thd

:30:02.:30:03.

Minister is worried about unintended consequences, it can be dealt with.

:30:04.:30:06.

Let's take a two committee, change the bill in committee and m`ke it

:30:07.:30:10.

fit for purpose. I urge the Minister even at this very last moment to

:30:11.:30:14.

accept the provisions of thhs bill, allow it into committee where we can

:30:15.:30:18.

change it, if necessary, and bring it back for this house to p`ss.

:30:19.:30:25.

Thank you, Madam Deputy Spe`ker And thanks to the honourable melber for

:30:26.:30:33.

East Dunbartonshire for bringing this important issue to the House. I

:30:34.:30:39.

would also like to thank Stonewall, who have campaigned vigorously and a

:30:40.:30:43.

number of other campaign groups on LGBT issues over the years, to whom

:30:44.:30:49.

we owe a lot of credit for the progress that has been made in this

:30:50.:30:55.

area. Madam Deputy Speaker, there have been some fantastic spdeches

:30:56.:31:01.

today and I will not go through them all, but I would like to single out

:31:02.:31:07.

the speech by the member for Selby and Ainstree. As he said, it is not

:31:08.:31:12.

usual the Yorkshireman to admit they have made mistakes, but it hs even

:31:13.:31:16.

less usual for politicians to admit that they have made mistakes. He

:31:17.:31:23.

very graciously came out of the closet in favour of same-sex

:31:24.:31:27.

marriage in his speech. I will take the intervention. Thank

:31:28.:31:32.

you very much. In saying those words, does he not recognisd that it

:31:33.:31:36.

might well be the case in ydars to come that he reflects on thd words

:31:37.:31:40.

he is saying and about to s`y and think that, perhaps, he is `bout to

:31:41.:31:44.

get it wrong? I have done a number of these

:31:45.:31:48.

private members bills on Frhdays, and it is very unusual to bd doing a

:31:49.:31:52.

private members bill where the choice before the House is not the

:31:53.:31:57.

private members bill or nobhlity all, the choice before the house is

:31:58.:32:00.

this private members bill and a legislative vehicle, the police and

:32:01.:32:05.

crime commissioning bill, which will help us achieve our aim is luch

:32:06.:32:09.

faster and so we can deliver justice. There is also an ilportant

:32:10.:32:15.

point, it is not for anything that they say you campaign in podtry but

:32:16.:32:20.

Govan in prose. Intentions `re not good enough when it comes to making

:32:21.:32:25.

law. We have to think through the unintended consequences of law, that

:32:26.:32:28.

is what the Government approach tries to deal with.

:32:29.:32:33.

I am grateful, perhaps he would also like to make the point that if 00

:32:34.:32:39.

MPs out of 650 had turned up to support the bill today, then it

:32:40.:32:43.

would have got its second rdading without any trouble at all. And that

:32:44.:32:47.

the problem is, it seems to me, the bill has not got the support of 100

:32:48.:32:51.

MPs. We did not have 100 MPs going

:32:52.:32:57.

through the division lobby darlier. We have either substantial debate in

:32:58.:33:01.

which people in favour of the private members bill have spoken for

:33:02.:33:04.

well over three hours. I wotld like to take the intervention. I am

:33:05.:33:09.

grateful. Because we have h`d so many contributions, time is short,

:33:10.:33:12.

last time I was here for a private members bill with a minister he I'm

:33:13.:33:17.

sure, entirely inadvertentlx, talked it out. He still has over 20 minutes

:33:18.:33:23.

to address the issues of thd bill. Can he commit to concluding his

:33:24.:33:28.

remarks so we can have a bo`t on the second reading, otherwise it will be

:33:29.:33:31.

his friends that are blamed the talking it out, the Minister's words

:33:32.:33:35.

would ring hollow if he is the one that talks out the bill. I can

:33:36.:33:39.

commit is setting up the Government case very clearly and come

:33:40.:33:44.

principally. As I had said, the choice is not this bill or no

:33:45.:33:50.

action, the choice is betwedn.. Madam Deputy Speaker, I was proud to

:33:51.:33:53.

announce yesterday the introduction of legislation to posthumous the

:33:54.:33:59.

pardoned thousands of gay and bisexual men convicted of now

:34:00.:34:03.

abolished sexual offences. Not enough has been said of what was a

:34:04.:34:07.

big and momentous step by the Government yesterday. Many of the

:34:08.:34:12.

contributions today have lost over that fact and tried to presdnt this

:34:13.:34:17.

debate as one which the Govdrnment is taken no action at all. This has

:34:18.:34:23.

been a big challenge for 50 years. Homosexuality was decriminalised in

:34:24.:34:27.

1967, this is one of the biggest steps taken since then and ht is

:34:28.:34:33.

being taken by this Governmdnt. The issue was brought home to md, Madam

:34:34.:34:36.

Deputy Speaker, when my offhce received a phone call from ` lady 's

:34:37.:34:44.

stepbrother was convicted under these archaic anti-gay laws. And she

:34:45.:34:51.

was so delighted that her mother, their shared mother who is close to

:34:52.:34:56.

100 years, has lived to see her stepbrother pardons. That is a

:34:57.:35:01.

momentous step. For those that are making out, tweeting other lembers,

:35:02.:35:05.

that's how the Government is not being progressive in this area, the

:35:06.:35:09.

truth is that the Government is not dragging its feet or being hesitant,

:35:10.:35:12.

the legislative vehicle of the Government will deliver what we all

:35:13.:35:18.

want, to write this historical wrong quicker than any other method. By

:35:19.:35:23.

using a Government vehicle we protect these measures from

:35:24.:35:29.

filibuster and we protected from the vagaries of Parliamentary thme and

:35:30.:35:35.

ensure that the measures get on the statute book. In 2012, we

:35:36.:35:40.

introduced... If you want md to finish you might as well allow me to

:35:41.:35:44.

get through the speech. In 2012 we introduce changes to the

:35:45.:35:49.

law to clear anyone still lhving, and previously convicted of these

:35:50.:35:53.

now abolished offences under the Home Office process. Disreg`rding is

:35:54.:36:00.

a powerful tool in changing lives, as it removes any mention of a

:36:01.:36:05.

criminal offence. However, our announcement will go one stdp

:36:06.:36:09.

further and we will introduce a new statutory pardon for those who have

:36:10.:36:15.

successfully had offences ddleted through the disregard process. I

:36:16.:36:19.

thank him for giving way. When you talk that the number of convictions

:36:20.:36:23.

compared with the number of people who have taken up the offer of this

:36:24.:36:29.

regard, it is very low. Does the Government penny plans to ptblicise

:36:30.:36:33.

the disregard programme so that more people could take that option?

:36:34.:36:40.

The honourable member makes a very powerful point, in the Government

:36:41.:36:45.

scheme the living do not get a blanket pardon but apply for a

:36:46.:36:50.

disregard process. The offer that I made to the member for East

:36:51.:36:54.

Dunbartonshire was to work together with him, MoD officials and the Home

:36:55.:36:58.

Office to make sure that thd disregard process is as effdctive as

:36:59.:37:04.

it could be. But in thinking about this we need not only to thhnk about

:37:05.:37:08.

those who were unjustly convicted of a crime, but we need to think about

:37:09.:37:15.

potential victims. And by not having a disregard process and offdring a

:37:16.:37:19.

blanket pardon, it means we do not take into account the needs of

:37:20.:37:24.

potential victims. I will t`ke that intervention. I don't quite

:37:25.:37:29.

understand his point. It is quite possible that somebody now deceased

:37:30.:37:33.

could get an automatic pardon is in exactly the same position as

:37:34.:37:37.

somebody who is still alive, and there could be a potential victim

:37:38.:37:43.

there, so why is he making this strange difference between the two?

:37:44.:37:52.

It is a very important point. One of the answers is very similar. For

:37:53.:37:55.

somebody who is living and receives the blanket pardon, they cotld

:37:56.:38:02.

volunteer in a school, wherd actually they have committed

:38:03.:38:06.

something that is still an offence, for example sex with a minor. There

:38:07.:38:11.

is a bigger onus on it to gdt this right. Can I develop my argtment?

:38:12.:38:20.

Order. I just want to remind the minister there when he says you he

:38:21.:38:25.

is referring to the chair. H know in these heated debates can get quite

:38:26.:38:29.

direct, so especially when ht gets a bit heated, it is important to

:38:30.:38:37.

remember that rule. Very good advice, I would not want

:38:38.:38:43.

to drag you into this debatd. The Government will pardon thosd who

:38:44.:38:46.

tragically died before they ever saw this injustice tackled. I would say

:38:47.:38:51.

in response to the member for Rhondda who made a very passionate

:38:52.:38:58.

speech, it is a matter of ddep regret that so many men went to

:38:59.:39:02.

their graves without the pardon that they rightly deserve. Which is why

:39:03.:39:08.

we are determined as a Government to deliver justice, as I have said by

:39:09.:39:13.

the most swift and fair means possible. We support the amdndment

:39:14.:39:22.

to the protection of freedol sacked 2012 to the policing and crhme Bill.

:39:23.:39:27.

Lord Sharkey is a Liberal Ddmocrat peer, no stooge of the Government.

:39:28.:39:33.

The days of coalition are long over. He has been campaigning likd many of

:39:34.:39:37.

the members here, including the member for East Dunbartonshhre, for

:39:38.:39:41.

this very measure for very long time. I am pleased that he will be

:39:42.:39:46.

taking forward the Government smack measures on this. I am also pleased

:39:47.:39:51.

the measures have been welcomed widely. Nick Duffy, the editor of

:39:52.:39:57.

Pink News, said the result discussion around semantics, but the

:39:58.:40:01.

bigger issue, I think, is that men who are alive today now havd the

:40:02.:40:04.

option to finally have it on paper that they don't do anything wrong,

:40:05.:40:09.

that these laws were a mist`ke and never should have been. It sends a

:40:10.:40:13.

message within our country, can I finish, that these laws werd totally

:40:14.:40:18.

wrong, that we regret them `nd that they should never have been on the

:40:19.:40:26.

books. David Isaac, the Equ`lity Commission chair, has said that this

:40:27.:40:31.

is an important date for all those who have had criminal convictions

:40:32.:40:35.

through old unjust laws. Many people have campaigned for gay men to be

:40:36.:40:39.

pardoned after being prosectted for being who they are, I applatd the

:40:40.:40:44.

Government fulfilling their commitment. Madam Deputy Spdaker,

:40:45.:40:48.

these are quotes from peopld who are independent and have campaigned for

:40:49.:40:52.

these measures for a long thme, and they recognise that the steps the

:40:53.:40:55.

Government is taking will ddliver justice in a fast and fair way.

:40:56.:41:02.

Earlier on, he said his objdction to this bill was that it gave out a

:41:03.:41:10.

blanket pardon which might cover unlawful conduct. Can give the

:41:11.:41:13.

Minister comfort and tell hhm that is not the case. If you looks to

:41:14.:41:20.

clause one, it says, nothing in this act is to be interpreted as

:41:21.:41:24.

pardoning, disregarding or hn any other way affecting cautions all

:41:25.:41:28.

sentences or other consequences for conduct or behaviour that is

:41:29.:41:33.

unlawful on the date that the act comes into force. How could it be

:41:34.:41:38.

clearer? And if you looks at clause two, the conditions for a p`rdon are

:41:39.:41:43.

that the other person must have consented and must not have been

:41:44.:41:49.

under the age of 16. Those `nswer the issues that he is, the concerns

:41:50.:41:55.

he is at issue. Will he havd the decency to admit that the government

:41:56.:41:59.

is wrong about this and the bill does tackle the issues he is

:42:00.:42:04.

bringing up? The truth is, the offence w`s gross

:42:05.:42:13.

indecency. Gross indecency covered a whole range of criminal offdnces. So

:42:14.:42:20.

your blanket pardon, unless you are going to cover everyone who was

:42:21.:42:25.

convicted of gross indecencx, so you go into that and differenti`te

:42:26.:42:31.

between those who this bill covers? Can I develop my argument? @nd those

:42:32.:42:35.

who fall outside the scope of this bill. I would like to take on a

:42:36.:42:39.

point that the member for Ilford North mentioned. He was delhghted to

:42:40.:42:49.

be debating this issue with a Conservative government on the how

:42:50.:42:55.

and not the what. Now, can H say to him that the Conservative P`rty has

:42:56.:42:59.

a proud record of trying to redress the inequality that gay, lesbian and

:43:00.:43:08.

transgender people face and it was Chris Grayling who paved thd way

:43:09.:43:13.

with a protections of freedoms act 2012, and a Conservative led

:43:14.:43:17.

government that is delivered the same-sex marriage and same-sex

:43:18.:43:20.

couples act which passed in July 20 13. Couples have been able to marry

:43:21.:43:25.

regardless of sex and gender. And I know when I was going through that

:43:26.:43:29.

debate and I voted for same,sex marriage, I realised when pdople

:43:30.:43:33.

contacted me and said they `re the same, let's treat them diffdrently

:43:34.:43:38.

when it comes to marriage. @s an ethnic minority myself, I knew you

:43:39.:43:42.

could not say they were equ`l and treat them separately, which is why

:43:43.:43:46.

I was delighted to vote for that piece of legislation. And also, the

:43:47.:43:55.

Conservative Party has a proud record of more out MPs than all

:43:56.:43:57.

other parties put together, I understand. But we know that there

:43:58.:44:02.

is more to do. I reject that somehow in supporting this amendment by Lord

:44:03.:44:05.

Sharkey, we shirking the huge amount that is to do in this area. We are

:44:06.:44:10.

delivering on this manifesto commitment by backing that `mendment

:44:11.:44:16.

to correct this historic injustice against gay and bisexual men. Many

:44:17.:44:22.

people have said in this debate that we need to send out a signal. Well,

:44:23.:44:28.

when I looked at the newspapers yesterday, the signal was sdnt by

:44:29.:44:33.

the government supporting that amendment. And I am sure thd

:44:34.:44:36.

reverberations will continud for months to come that the govdrnment

:44:37.:44:40.

has not only delivered on its commitment, but also gone as

:44:41.:44:45.

possible to write this historic injustice. I was delighted when

:44:46.:44:51.

Jeremy Corbyn also said that this is a great victory for all those who

:44:52.:44:55.

have campaigned to correct this wrong. So I know that but the SNP

:44:56.:45:03.

answering the call of Better Together is not something that comes

:45:04.:45:07.

naturally. But as I say, wh`t I hoped was that they would whthdraw

:45:08.:45:13.

this bill and support our alendment. We all want the same thing, to

:45:14.:45:17.

resolve an injustice that for too long has been left unchallenged And

:45:18.:45:28.

of course, when the amendment comes into this House, the SNP will be

:45:29.:45:34.

able to contribute it and the debate on that particular amendment. But,

:45:35.:45:40.

Madam Deputy Speaker, we ard all here in part because of the

:45:41.:45:47.

world-famous story of the w`rtime hero and Enigma code breaker Alan

:45:48.:45:52.

Turing. That resulted in thd Conservative manifesto to introduce

:45:53.:45:54.

legislation to correct thesd historic wrongs. Turing convicted

:45:55.:46:00.

suicide following his conviction for gross indecency and he was

:46:01.:46:04.

posthumous sleep pardoned bx Her Majesty the Queen in 2013. The

:46:05.:46:10.

posthumous pardon of Alan Ttring addresses his 1952 conviction for

:46:11.:46:15.

gross indecency which resulted in him being chemically castrated.

:46:16.:46:18.

Turing was arrested following an affair with a 19-year-old from

:46:19.:46:24.

Manchester. The conviction, an indictment of the attitudes

:46:25.:46:27.

prevailing at the time, restlted in him losing his security cle`rance so

:46:28.:46:32.

that he was no longer able to continue the valuable code breaking

:46:33.:46:35.

work that was vital to the @llies in World War II during the war, at

:46:36.:46:42.

Bletchley Park. His pardon was granted under the Royal prerogative

:46:43.:46:46.

of messy at the request by the then Conservative Justice Secret`ry Chris

:46:47.:46:49.

Grayling, following a high-profile campaign supported by over 37,0 0

:46:50.:46:54.

people including Stephen Hawking. We know, as has been sedge durhng this

:46:55.:46:59.

debate, that Alan Turing's story is just one of the estimated 48,00

:47:00.:47:03.

people into sleep convicted under laws. This is of course a m`tter of

:47:04.:47:10.

the deepest regret. These wdre criminal offences, as the l`w said

:47:11.:47:14.

at the time, but I am delighted we will be delivering on our m`nifesto

:47:15.:47:19.

commitment to pardon these len and put these wrongs. The legislation

:47:20.:47:23.

this Government announced whll do two things. Address the historic

:47:24.:47:27.

injustices faced by gay and bisexual men. In the case of deceased

:47:28.:47:32.

persons, it will provide for a blanket posthumous pardon to be

:47:33.:47:37.

given to those individuals who were convicted of consensual gay sexual

:47:38.:47:41.

offences which would not be offences today. Primarily, offences tnder the

:47:42.:47:51.

Sexual Offences Act 1956. As Lord Sharkey said yesterday, a p`rdon is

:47:52.:47:54.

probably the best way to acknowledge the real harm done by the unjust and

:47:55.:47:59.

cruel homophobic laws which thankfully we have now repe`led In

:48:00.:48:05.

the case of those individuals still living, it will provide that all

:48:06.:48:08.

individuals who are successful in obtaining a disregard which I will

:48:09.:48:14.

explain in more detail in a moment, to be granted a pardon. So they will

:48:15.:48:18.

get both a disregard to exptnge their record and a pardon. This will

:48:19.:48:24.

apply to those disregards previously or in the future. Under the

:48:25.:48:28.

protection of freedoms act 2012 individuals can apply to thd Home

:48:29.:48:32.

Secretary to have their historic convictions for gay sex offdnces

:48:33.:48:36.

primarily sections 12 and 13 of Sexual Offences Act 1956, ddleted.

:48:37.:48:43.

Officials check police National computer records and local court

:48:44.:48:47.

records, to ascertain whethdr the offences were consensual, where the

:48:48.:48:54.

person aged 16 or over was hnvolved, and did not involve activitx that is

:48:55.:48:58.

currently an offence. A successful applicant will be treated in all

:48:59.:49:02.

circumstances as both the offence had never occurred and need not to

:49:03.:49:07.

disclose it for any purpose. Official records related to the

:49:08.:49:11.

conviction held by organisations will be deleted or, where

:49:12.:49:17.

appropriate, removed this effect. The existence of those awkw`rd

:49:18.:49:23.

Russians may have prevented them taking up certain opportunities and

:49:24.:49:28.

made them uneasy going into certain professions or volunteering, or

:49:29.:49:30.

because that information wotld have been revealed in a criminal records

:49:31.:49:39.

check. While it is right th`t the state enables the vulnerabld to be

:49:40.:49:43.

protected from those who pose a risk, it is not right that someone

:49:44.:49:48.

remains affected by a conviction for something that is no longer illegal.

:49:49.:49:53.

The process for the disregards, which has been discussed in not

:49:54.:50:00.

enough detail in this debatd, it is simple and not bureaucratic.

:50:01.:50:04.

Applicants complete a two p`ge form with basic information such as name

:50:05.:50:08.

and address of the applicant and the details of the offence to bd

:50:09.:50:12.

disregarded. The applicant `lso supplies photocopies of proof of

:50:13.:50:18.

address and identity. These can be sent by post or e-mail. Nothing else

:50:19.:50:22.

is required in the process which is free of charge. The outcome of a

:50:23.:50:28.

disregards is a significant step for the individual. They may have had to

:50:29.:50:33.

live with that offence on their record for years. I want to press

:50:34.:50:38.

on. When a person is successful in obtaining a disregards for `

:50:39.:50:41.

conviction or a caution, th`t offence is to be treated for all

:50:42.:50:47.

purposes in law as of the pdrson has not committed the offence bding

:50:48.:50:53.

convicted or sentenced or c`utioned. Perhaps this will be of most use to

:50:54.:50:57.

individuals when applying for work or to volunteer in roles repuiring a

:50:58.:51:01.

criminal records check, frol the disclosure service. This is

:51:02.:51:09.

incredibly important becausd what the disregards process does is quite

:51:10.:51:14.

simply the offences will no longer appear on the disclosure and can

:51:15.:51:18.

have no affect on the person's chances of obtaining work or the

:51:19.:51:22.

opportunity to volunteer. Any previous barriers would havd been

:51:23.:51:27.

removed and the person is no longer affected by the disclosure.

:51:28.:51:34.

Just to clarify a point that when the age of consent is higher than

:51:35.:51:39.

today in 1967, how does the Minister envisaged checks and balancds being

:51:40.:51:44.

put in place on a blanket... Were under age sex has taken place under

:51:45.:51:48.

the age of 16, which is illdgal today, but the same charge when the

:51:49.:51:55.

age of consent was 21? My honourable friend continues to make a very

:51:56.:52:00.

persuasive case here, which is yes, we all want a pardon, we all want to

:52:01.:52:06.

correct the rungs of the past, but we cannot do that without h`ving

:52:07.:52:12.

inappropriate safeguards were people still live and there are sthll

:52:13.:52:16.

consequences today -- the Bronx To do that would be irresponsible on

:52:17.:52:19.

the part of the government, they will take that intervention. In my

:52:20.:52:26.

early intervention, he said his concern was that somebody who got a

:52:27.:52:30.

blanket pardon he was still alive could get a job as a voluntder or

:52:31.:52:36.

something like that with chhldren. The bill specifically says that

:52:37.:52:42.

anybody who is still alive `nd wants to have the offence expunge from

:52:43.:52:45.

their record has to go throtgh a second procedure. Surely anxbody

:52:46.:52:49.

applying would have to go through a criminal records check for such a

:52:50.:52:54.

job that shows that up still on the record, so I do not see where the

:52:55.:52:58.

difference lies. The honourable member has m`de for

:52:59.:53:03.

me the point why a disregard step is essential in this process. Can I

:53:04.:53:09.

respond to the point the honourable gentleman made? I hope, the

:53:10.:53:16.

disregard process means you do not have a distro -- a process where

:53:17.:53:21.

somebody has been pardoned but actually on their criminal record,

:53:22.:53:27.

the record has not been exptnged. What the disregard process does it

:53:28.:53:33.

makes, it ensures that the criminal record is expunged and they get a

:53:34.:53:38.

statutory pardon. So I am stre members will agree with me that this

:53:39.:53:43.

disregard process provides ` meaningful avenue for indivhduals

:53:44.:53:47.

convicted or cautioned for sexual activity which would no longer be

:53:48.:53:51.

regarded as an offence. You have had your time. The move on with their

:53:52.:53:55.

lives in a meaningful way. @ disregard is a much more powerful

:53:56.:53:59.

and useful remedy for someone living, rather than just a pardon.

:54:00.:54:05.

We do recognise that the force of the symbol of been pardoned is

:54:06.:54:09.

strong, so we propose to pardon all of those living who were convicted

:54:10.:54:14.

of relevant offences once they have received a disregard. I would

:54:15.:54:19.

absolutely urge any individtals who believe they are eligible for the

:54:20.:54:22.

disregard process, to apply through the Home Office to have thehr

:54:23.:54:27.

records correctly assessed, and I hope today's debate helped raise the

:54:28.:54:32.

profile of this process so that those who were not aware can take

:54:33.:54:37.

steps to secure the justice they deserve. Of course, I support the

:54:38.:54:42.

intentions behind my honour`ble friend's bill. We share the same

:54:43.:54:48.

objectives. The proposed bl`nket pardon would not provide for robust

:54:49.:54:51.

checks to ensure that only those who clearly meets the criteria can claim

:54:52.:54:57.

to have been pardoned. It would lead in some cases the people cl`iming to

:54:58.:55:02.

be cleared of offences that are still crimes including sex with a

:55:03.:55:09.

minor and other activity. Under the disregard process, the Home Office

:55:10.:55:13.

has rejected several applic`tions where the activity was nonconsensual

:55:14.:55:19.

and others were the other p`rty was under 16 years old. These offences

:55:20.:55:25.

were captured under offences such as gross indecency at the time but they

:55:26.:55:29.

are still crimes today. It hs important that a pardon for the

:55:30.:55:33.

living takes place only aftdr due process has taken place.

:55:34.:55:40.

Order, order! You know. Let the Minister finish his speech. Order.

:55:41.:55:50.

Order. Debate to resume what day? Debate to be resumes what d`y? The

:55:51.:55:56.

member of the East Dunbartonshire is the member in charge, I belheve I

:55:57.:56:03.

suspect there is little point, Madam Deputy Speaker, but I am told to

:56:04.:56:07.

continue with this farce. The 1 th of December is what I meant to say.

:56:08.:56:14.

The 16th of December. Registration of marriage Bill second reading ..

:56:15.:56:21.

IBEC to leave, Madam Deputy Speaker. Objection taken. On which d`y?

:56:22.:56:28.

Friday the 18th of November. Friday the 18th of November. The qtestion

:56:29.:56:36.

is that this House do now adjourn? Philip Hollobone? I rise on behalf

:56:37.:56:40.

of my constituents in Kettering to draw to the Minister's attention

:56:41.:56:45.

Kettering General Hospital, the good work it does for the local community

:56:46.:56:50.

and the challenges it faces over the years ahead. Could I thank Lr

:56:51.:56:54.

Speaker for granting me perlission to have this debate today, `nd could

:56:55.:56:59.

I welcome my honourable fridnd the member for Ludlow, the Minister for

:57:00.:57:05.

health in his place, to listen to my remarks. It is a huge privilege for

:57:06.:57:09.

me to be the member of Parlhament for Kettering, I regard Kettering

:57:10.:57:13.

General Hospital as one of the pre-eminent issues for all local

:57:14.:57:18.

residents in Kettering, and had no hesitation in trying to use every

:57:19.:57:22.

parliamentary opportunity I can to draw the hospital's challenges to

:57:23.:57:26.

the attention of Her Majestx's Government. There are five lain

:57:27.:57:31.

themes I want to address today. The first is the huge demographhc

:57:32.:57:35.

challenge Kettering and its hospital faces. Second, the ambitious plans

:57:36.:57:42.

for an urgent care hope which, frankly, require Government support.

:57:43.:57:46.

The challenge of funding estate development on the hospital site,

:57:47.:57:50.

the problems caused by national IT roll-outs and the workforce

:57:51.:57:56.

challenges faced by the hospital. Madam Deputy Speaker, peopld in

:57:57.:58:00.

Kettering are very proud of our local hospital, which has bden on

:58:01.:58:07.

its present site for 119 ye`rs. Local people have been born there,

:58:08.:58:13.

repair that, died there. Evdryone is hugely proud of the doctors, nurses

:58:14.:58:20.

ancillary staff who do a fantastic job day in, day out, week in, week

:58:21.:58:28.

out, around the clock, to providing cruising the first-class he`lth care

:58:29.:58:34.

to our local community. But the size of the local community is growing at

:58:35.:58:39.

an unprecedented rate. Kettdring over the last census period was

:58:40.:58:43.

sixth out of 348 local districts for household growth, 31st out of 3 8

:58:44.:58:52.

districts for population growth The local population is growing

:58:53.:58:57.

something like 1% a year, btt within that the number of elderly people is

:58:58.:59:01.

growing even faster. Thank goodness we all living longer, but the number

:59:02.:59:10.

of people aged over 75 is lhkely to rise in the county of

:59:11.:59:16.

Northamptonshire from just shy of 54 in 2017 to just short of 72,000 in

:59:17.:59:27.

2023. -- from just shy of 54000 and 2017. This represents the bhggest

:59:28.:59:32.

challenge for the hospital. The good news is that the hospital is raising

:59:33.:59:36.

its game and is responding. The number of beds in the hospital was

:59:37.:59:45.

518 in 2010, it is now 561. That is an increase of 8%. It is set to

:59:46.:59:51.

increase to 600 over the next year or so. But the number of trdatments

:59:52.:59:55.

being provided is going up `ll the time. In 2004/5 there were 71,3 0 at

:59:56.:00:07.

omitted patient consultant dpisodes that the hospital, rising to just

:00:08.:00:14.

short of 91,020 14/15, an increase of 27%. The number of outpatient

:00:15.:00:25.

attendances rose from 160,402 in 2004/5 to 274,614 in 2014/14, an

:00:26.:00:35.

increase of 63%. The accident and emergency figures, 67500 and

:00:36.:00:41.

2010/11, now it is 83,000, `n increase of 23%, this is poor and

:00:42.:00:46.

A department built 20 years ago designed to treat just 40,000

:00:47.:00:50.

people. The pressures on thd hospital are unprecedented. The

:00:51.:00:56.

funding provided by Her Majdsty s Government to NHS England to the

:00:57.:01:00.

local clinical commissioning groups is going up, but Her Majestx's

:01:01.:01:04.

Government is admitted it is still short of the target amount. I will

:01:05.:01:11.

be delighted to give way to my honourable friend for

:01:12.:01:15.

Wellingborough. I would congratulate my honourable

:01:16.:01:19.

friend on this very important debates, isn't one of the

:01:20.:01:21.

frustrations of people of North Block antigen that the Government

:01:22.:01:25.

has a formula that says how much money we should get cut, thdre does

:01:26.:01:30.

not give it is because it s`ys it over funds elsewhere -- a formula

:01:31.:01:35.

that says how much money we should get, then does not give it to us

:01:36.:01:40.

because it says elsewhere is overfunded.

:01:41.:01:43.

He has a great way of simplhfying complex issues in a readily

:01:44.:01:47.

understandable way, this is another example. NHS England has told Her

:01:48.:01:52.

Majesty's Government that they are targeting both clinical

:01:53.:01:56.

commissioning groups more than % above or below the target ftnding,

:01:57.:02:06.

that we both need and know that clinical groups are underfunded and

:02:07.:02:13.

the cash increase of around 10% for one area and around 9% for Corby

:02:14.:02:18.

brings us within that 5% lo`n, which suggests we are right-sided at the

:02:19.:02:24.

moment. You add the fact th`t we were more than 5% away from the

:02:25.:02:29.

target funding plus we have one of the most rapidly increasing

:02:30.:02:31.

populations in the whole cotntry and you can readily see why there is a

:02:32.:02:39.

very, very Steph Dellacqua stiff challenge for the hospital.

:02:40.:02:46.

Delighted to give way. -- you can readily see why there is a very

:02:47.:02:49.

stiff challenge for the loc`l hospital. Big up residence hn Corby

:02:50.:02:53.

are very proud of the hospital, like his constituents in Kettering. The

:02:54.:02:57.

reason need for new infrastructure to support new homes, would he agree

:02:58.:03:02.

that the new urgent care help waiting for will be really crucial

:03:03.:03:06.

to the future of securing hdalth services in the area, taking the

:03:07.:03:10.

pressure from the A and mdeting the growing need for new residents

:03:11.:03:14.

moving in, but also to meet the Government agenda about better

:03:15.:03:19.

integrating health services? One of the advantages of working so

:03:20.:03:22.

closely with your fellow MPs is that you begin to read each other's

:03:23.:03:26.

minds, my honourable friend has led me seamlessly to section two my

:03:27.:03:32.

speech, entitled urgent card hub. This is in many ways one of the most

:03:33.:03:38.

exciting faced by the hospital. The idea of an urgent care hub hs to

:03:39.:03:43.

have a one site at Kettering General Hospital effectively a one-stop shop

:03:44.:03:47.

for GP services and out-of-hours care. An on-site pharmacy, `nd minor

:03:48.:03:53.

injuries unit, facilities for social services and mental health, access

:03:54.:03:57.

to community care services for the frail and elderly, a replacdment for

:03:58.:04:01.

the hospital A department which is now over 20 years old. The three

:04:02.:04:08.

local MPs are working very hard on this issue but, frankly, we need

:04:09.:04:13.

more support from the hospital minister. The hospital itself has

:04:14.:04:18.

drawn up very ambitious proposals to develop this urgent care hub, it

:04:19.:04:27.

could cost between 13 and ?30 million. It is exactly the sort of

:04:28.:04:31.

thing highlighted by NHS England as an important principle for the way

:04:32.:04:35.

forward in its five-year forward view and it enjoyed the support of

:04:36.:04:39.

the previous Health Minister, the Minister for Central Suffolk and

:04:40.:04:44.

North Ipswich, who in a deb`te in West Hall column for 40 on the 4th

:04:45.:04:49.

of March last year said the following, these were the Mhnister

:04:50.:04:53.

's 's, the principle of the hub is absolutely the way forward for the

:04:54.:04:57.

local NHS, the type of integrated care model we need elsewherd in the

:04:58.:05:02.

country, particularly where the NHS services a broad population. In this

:05:03.:05:07.

case it services nudges Kettering but a partially rural countx and

:05:08.:05:11.

rural area. This is a model that I am sure honourable members will

:05:12.:05:15.

continue to support and I whll to continue to have a keen intdrest in

:05:16.:05:23.

supporting. I hope the plans are successful in providing what

:05:24.:05:25.

constituents want. There ard encouraging signs. Improvemdnts are

:05:26.:05:29.

significant and would ensurd that the local area had a resilidnt and

:05:30.:05:32.

high-quality health care system to deliver the highest quality patient

:05:33.:05:37.

care. Could I ask the Minister if he would be kind enough to visht

:05:38.:05:42.

Kettering General Hospital, partly to look at these proposals for an

:05:43.:05:48.

urgent care hub and also because I will be pestering him at evdry

:05:49.:05:52.

Department of Health questions and I think it would greatly assist the

:05:53.:05:55.

preparation of his answers hf he could visit the hospital and speak

:05:56.:05:58.

from a position of some knowledge. This could be a pioneering

:05:59.:06:02.

development for the NHS in our country, led by a pilot at Kettering

:06:03.:06:09.

General Hospital. This brings me to the wider issue of

:06:10.:06:14.

funding for the state at Kettering General Hospital. A small to medium

:06:15.:06:21.

District General Hospital lhke Kettering on an ageing town centre

:06:22.:06:26.

site will inevitably have a great deal of backlog, maintenancd and

:06:27.:06:29.

equipment replacement every year. The hospital spent something like

:06:30.:06:35.

ten to ?15 million of capit`l each year through loans, swelling the

:06:36.:06:39.

balance sheet in not a very helpful way. Clearly the financing pressure

:06:40.:06:44.

on the hospital is huge. Thd capital programme for next year at the

:06:45.:06:47.

hospital is largely made out of three items, ?5 million and

:06:48.:06:53.

maintenance backlog, just over 1 million for IT infrastructure and

:06:54.:06:59.

almost ?1.5 for medical equhpment. A point that the Health Minister needs

:07:00.:07:02.

to make to the Chancellor is there is currently no capital support to

:07:03.:07:08.

the strategic transformation plans. So transforming our district general

:07:09.:07:13.

hospitals up and down the country will be very difficult.

:07:14.:07:17.

Nevertheless, Kettering Gendral Hospital is being innovativd, it has

:07:18.:07:21.

installed a new modular unit to try to upgrade the A department, with

:07:22.:07:28.

30 major base for complex mddical and surgical needs in A H remind

:07:29.:07:36.

the Minister that Kettering's A E has treated 83,000 patients, it was

:07:37.:07:41.

designed to treat 40000 and was built 20 years ago. The new

:07:42.:07:44.

maternity unit has had ?5 mhllion spent on it, and has brought

:07:45.:07:50.

state-of-the-art maternity services to Kettering Hospital, wherd 38 0

:07:51.:07:58.

babies are delivered every xear and 2000 gynaecological and obstetric

:07:59.:08:03.

theatre procedures are carrhed out. These are fantastic developlents but

:08:04.:08:06.

very expensive and it is very difficult, frankly, for Kettering

:08:07.:08:13.

NHS Trust to afford them. The fourth point of five is about the national

:08:14.:08:19.

IT roll-out. There are diffhculties that hospitals are experiencing in

:08:20.:08:24.

complying with necessary advances in linking its IT to other reghonal and

:08:25.:08:34.

national services. One example has been the problem local patidnts have

:08:35.:08:37.

experience with getting extra results back. Now that therd is

:08:38.:08:40.

meant to be an integrated E`st Midlands system for x-rays,

:08:41.:08:46.

Kettering had experienced difficulties with this and some of

:08:47.:08:52.

the delays in getting x-rays to patients has been extended to three

:08:53.:08:56.

or four months, which hospital admits is unacceptable. The IT

:08:57.:09:01.

challenge faced by district general hospitals is something the Linister

:09:02.:09:03.

needs to be made aware of. With regards to the workforce, good

:09:04.:09:09.

news that Kettering, becausd it is having success in recruiting staff

:09:10.:09:16.

to the hospital but, nevertheless, there are still vacancies, there are

:09:17.:09:24.

1200 nursing posts at Kettering General Hospital, as of tod`y there

:09:25.:09:30.

is a vacancy for 80. Many of these nurses come from Europe and

:09:31.:09:36.

elsewhere. In fact, at the loment there are 72 European nurses at

:09:37.:09:40.

Kettering General Hospital, and the good news is that 95% have stayed

:09:41.:09:46.

with the trust. Compared to the national average retention rate of

:09:47.:09:51.

28%. On the Minister's visit to the hospital he will be able to learn a

:09:52.:09:55.

really good example of how to retain hard-working staff, which hd might

:09:56.:10:00.

be able to apply elsewhere. 61% of people in Kettering voted to

:10:01.:10:04.

leave the European Union, a fact of which I am hugely proud, but when

:10:05.:10:10.

you -- when we negotiate our Brexit terms and conditions we cle`rly must

:10:11.:10:14.

make provision to retain kex personnel from the European Union

:10:15.:10:16.

who bring to the country thd skills we need and to we have not been able

:10:17.:10:25.

to find from amongst our own people. Madam Deputy Speaker, Kettering

:10:26.:10:29.

General Hospital is a very good hospital under a huge amount of

:10:30.:10:32.

pressure. There are things that the Government can do to make the

:10:33.:10:39.

hospital succeed. Myself and my honourable friends for

:10:40.:10:41.

Wellingborough and Corby will be on the Minister's case for the rest of

:10:42.:10:46.

this Parliament to make surd that our hospital works properly and

:10:47.:10:50.

successfully and delivers the local patient care that people nedd and

:10:51.:10:51.

deserve. May I again congratulate my

:10:52.:11:02.

honourable friend on securing such a special debate and that he has been

:11:03.:11:07.

consistently a champion for Kettering General Hospital? And

:11:08.:11:09.

grateful to the Minister to make the effort to come here today to listen

:11:10.:11:13.

to this debate and perhaps hf he can visit the Kettering General Hospital

:11:14.:11:17.

on the way, he. First at Wellingborough and look at the

:11:18.:11:23.

hospital there. The ice block hospital is a community hospital. It

:11:24.:11:29.

is undergoing refurbishment for new x-ray equipment and the isste that

:11:30.:11:39.

we have is that we should h`ve a minor A unit there, it is part of

:11:40.:11:42.

the overall pub plan, but bdcause that has got bogged down in

:11:43.:11:51.

administration, the expansion has not taken place and that is a

:11:52.:11:55.

mistake because in financial terms, if we had a minor A, 40% of the

:11:56.:12:05.

people who now go to the Kettering General Hospital A would not be to

:12:06.:12:09.

go there and that would savd a lot of money. By spending a little bit

:12:10.:12:13.

of money now, you save a bit of money and it is better for ly

:12:14.:12:20.

constituents... I am grateftl to my honourable friend forgiving way Do

:12:21.:12:25.

we know categorically that hs the case? If you look at Corby, we have

:12:26.:12:30.

the hugely popular and succdssful Corby urgent care centre delivered

:12:31.:12:35.

under a Conservative governlent it works incredibly well, local people

:12:36.:12:38.

go there rather than Ketterhng General Hospital and I think that

:12:39.:12:47.

approach would benefit your area. I am grateful for the intervention and

:12:48.:12:51.

may I say he is so active in Corby, it is no wonder he has got his minor

:12:52.:12:55.

Accident and Emergency centre ahead of me. But that does not, you cannot

:12:56.:13:04.

have a hub and spoke system if one is not there. I just say to the

:13:05.:13:08.

Minister, it would not be a bad idea to see physically white it hs such a

:13:09.:13:18.

good idea. What a pleasure ht is to join you this afternoon to

:13:19.:13:24.

participate in this debate on Kettering General Hospital `nd I

:13:25.:13:27.

congratulate my honourable friend for not just securing this debate,

:13:28.:13:31.

but frankly for his persistdnce in keeping Kettering General Hospital

:13:32.:13:34.

at the forefront of the nathonal debate on what is happening to our

:13:35.:13:37.

health service, he has taken assiduous interest in promoting

:13:38.:13:44.

this, as he has sort of vindicated today, at almost every opportunity

:13:45.:13:49.

he can. He raised the matter at my first health questions this month

:13:50.:13:52.

and he was on his feet raishng the issue with the Prime Ministdr the

:13:53.:13:56.

following day, so I think hd is a worthy champion of the causd. I am

:13:57.:14:01.

therefore fully aware of his interest in local health matters

:14:02.:14:06.

affecting his constituents. I would like to join him in recognising at

:14:07.:14:11.

the outset the great work done by all our staff in the NHS across the

:14:12.:14:15.

country. Especially those staff working in and around Kettering and

:14:16.:14:20.

the other hospitals we have heard of the day from my honourable friend

:14:21.:14:25.

for Colby and my honourable friend for Wellingborough -- Corby. I was

:14:26.:14:29.

invited by two of the three honourable friends who have spoken

:14:30.:14:35.

to attend the hospitals. I have to say, and from a sedentary position,

:14:36.:14:40.

I am sure my honourable fridnd for Corby has extended an invit`tion, I

:14:41.:14:44.

am grateful to you all for that I have to say newly imposed, the

:14:45.:14:50.

demands at present to visit hospitals in greater diffictlty than

:14:51.:14:57.

is the case in any of these cases. But I will endeavour to see what I

:14:58.:15:01.

can do during the course of next year, possibly to visit Kettering.

:15:02.:15:08.

But one visit to all three would kill two birds with one stone. I

:15:09.:15:12.

have responsibility for the acute sector and not community sector and

:15:13.:15:16.

so it would focus initially on Kettering. I will certainly do what

:15:17.:15:20.

I can during the course of sometime next year. And I know that the

:15:21.:15:27.

honourable member has previously met my predecessors to discuss health

:15:28.:15:32.

services in his constituencx. He has raised a number of issues today And

:15:33.:15:37.

I will attempt to address most of them, if not all of them, in the

:15:38.:15:43.

time that I have. I would lhke to start with the concerns he dxpressed

:15:44.:15:47.

over underfunding of his local CCG is, at point raised by my honourable

:15:48.:15:54.

friend from Wellingborough `s well. NHS England is working to move CCGs

:15:55.:15:59.

towards a target fair share of funding. But this has to take place

:16:00.:16:09.

quickly to maintain stability in the system across the country at a time

:16:10.:16:13.

of significant financial ch`llenge. I feel this quite acutely as a local

:16:14.:16:17.

member of Parliament represdnting in rural constituency which has been

:16:18.:16:21.

consistently underfunded. And we are taking steps, as I mentioned in a

:16:22.:16:28.

debate earlier this week, to look at introducing a fairer share of

:16:29.:16:31.

funding for rurall areas and addressing other issues such as

:16:32.:16:37.

social deprivation and a consequence of that has been to try and move

:16:38.:16:44.

those CCGs, in the areas recognised as underfunded, to bring thdm closer

:16:45.:16:51.

to target. The point was mentioned that the CCGs have been beyond the

:16:52.:16:56.

target, beyond 5% of the target and I am pleased to confirm the figures

:16:57.:17:00.

that were raised earlier by my honourable friend for Kettering that

:17:01.:17:07.

Corby CCGs received -- incrdases of 5.2% and 9.4% in the current year,

:17:08.:17:15.

2016 to 2017, compared to the previous year -- financial

:17:16.:17:18.

increases. Significantly above the average for English CCGs. That

:17:19.:17:23.

brings them both within the 5% of their target allocation this year,

:17:24.:17:29.

so they are both within 5%, which is... 9.4, that is certainlx one of

:17:30.:17:34.

the highest increases in allocations we have seen across the country so I

:17:35.:17:39.

hope he does recognise we are moving to correct that historic ch`llenge.

:17:40.:17:44.

This year, more than ?757 mhllion will be going into his local area.

:17:45.:17:51.

Allocations over the next fdw years should bring Corby CCG closdr to its

:17:52.:17:56.

funding target. I am going to take a more -- a moment to touch on the

:17:57.:18:02.

national pressures affecting the NHS. The NHS is very busy btt

:18:03.:18:08.

hospitals generally are performing well. The latest figures for August

:18:09.:18:13.

this year show over nine out of ten people were seen in a knee over four

:18:14.:18:19.

hours and on average, nearlx 2, 00 more people compare the 2008 to 2010

:18:20.:18:26.

were seen each day within four hours in Accident and Emergency.

:18:27.:18:30.

Paramedics respond to the m`jority of life-threatening cases in under

:18:31.:18:34.

nine macro minutes. -- eight minutes. An average of 18,300 a day

:18:35.:18:45.

were seen. Ambulance servicds are busy, which is why we are increasing

:18:46.:18:50.

paramedic training places bx over 60% this year alone. On top of the

:18:51.:18:56.

2300 extra paramedics that have joined the NHS since 2010. This

:18:57.:19:00.

allows more than 200 additional ambulances to be deployed bx the

:19:01.:19:09.

NHS, compared with 2010. The Minister is making a very good

:19:10.:19:13.

point, but would he accept that if an ambulance was to go to the

:19:14.:19:19.

Isebrook and take a patient, ten minutes transport, rather than

:19:20.:19:22.

Kettering in 45 minutes, is that's not sort of thing we could look at

:19:23.:19:27.

an efficiency saving which hs worth an investment in the Isebrook? I

:19:28.:19:32.

would agree, in the event that the hospital in Wellingborough was able

:19:33.:19:37.

to cope with the condition. But many of the most serious conditions need

:19:38.:19:40.

to go to the best place to deliver the service, even if it takds a bit

:19:41.:19:45.

longer to get to it. The qu`lity of treatment in our ambulances come up

:19:46.:19:50.

with the skills the paramedhcs in almost all cases on board, ht is

:19:51.:19:58.

such that very few people dhe while in ambulances in transit. They are

:19:59.:20:01.

kept stable and they need to go to the best place to treat thel. So

:20:02.:20:07.

just reverting for a moment of the national picture. The NHS l`st year

:20:08.:20:13.

treated on average 21,000 more outpatients a day and performed more

:20:14.:20:19.

than 4400 operations a day paired with 2010. So there is substantially

:20:20.:20:23.

more activity happening across the NHS and that is one of the reasons

:20:24.:20:28.

why a we have recruited so lany more clinicians to cope with this

:20:29.:20:32.

activity. There are now over 8, 00 more doctors and over 2700 lore

:20:33.:20:39.

nurses, paid for in part by having nearly 7,000 fewer managers across

:20:40.:20:44.

the NHS. We want to reduce pressure on services by reforming urgent care

:20:45.:20:49.

systems and caring for people better in the community. That is why I

:20:50.:20:52.

think some of the things behng done and planned for the Kettering area

:20:53.:20:56.

are interesting and innovathve. And it is clear that the NHS in my

:20:57.:21:03.

honourable friend's constittency understands the scale of thd

:21:04.:21:06.

challenge and is taking acthon to address it. The problem is, it is

:21:07.:21:14.

the urgent care hair health proposals which are exciting and

:21:15.:21:18.

could be rolled out across the country and is now with NHS

:21:19.:21:23.

improvement. It eats their say-so to go to the consultancy phase. Indeed.

:21:24.:21:30.

-- it needs. As our plans for improvement and integration across

:21:31.:21:33.

collaborative NHS areas across the country through this detaindd

:21:34.:21:39.

ability and transport -- through the sustainability and transforlation

:21:40.:21:42.

plans, been delivered today across the country, including for the

:21:43.:21:49.

Kettering area. And it would be NHS England who will review those plans

:21:50.:21:53.

and he will then decide to prioritise those which need the

:21:54.:22:01.

national objectives -- which meet. And the best thought out. I am going

:22:02.:22:07.

to touch a little bit now, hf I may, on the capital challenge th`t was

:22:08.:22:14.

raised by my honourable fridnd. So since... In the last few ye`rs, the

:22:15.:22:20.

department has provided just over ?37 million of interim revenue

:22:21.:22:24.

support and over ?15 million of emergency capital to the trtst.

:22:25.:22:28.

Since May 2010, capital expdnditure on this hospital has amountdd to

:22:29.:22:37.

?68.7 million, so it is recdiving quite substantial support from the

:22:38.:22:42.

Department. And the intention of the transformation work being undertaken

:22:43.:22:45.

is to move to a position whdre the ability to cope with the additional

:22:46.:22:51.

pressures which remain on A and across the patient flow in hospital

:22:52.:22:55.

to a position where that is built-in. My honourable fridnd

:22:56.:23:00.

referred to the trust and elergency departments being too small and

:23:01.:23:04.

limited in scope, and he totched on the new construction that h`s

:23:05.:23:07.

happened and was completed this year to extend the scope of the @

:23:08.:23:13.

department. It was originally built 20 years ago, the 40,000 attendances

:23:14.:23:19.

a year, and now deals with 8200 and more. The trust has reduced A

:23:20.:23:25.

attendances impaired with shx years ago, when over 3,000 fewer. The

:23:26.:23:33.

measures to integrate with the surrounding area are reducing

:23:34.:23:35.

attendances, despite the growing demand overall. The trust h`s been

:23:36.:23:40.

successful in recruiting and training additional medical staff,

:23:41.:23:45.

as he has indicated, and since 010, the trust has increased doctors by

:23:46.:23:53.

77, 20 4%. That is a signifhcant, one of the most significant

:23:54.:23:58.

increases I have seen so far. Some of those have come in from

:23:59.:24:05.

recruitment of staff through the certificate of eligibility for

:24:06.:24:07.

specialist registration where doctors have completed spechalist

:24:08.:24:11.

training overseas and chosen to come to this country to practise. He also

:24:12.:24:15.

referred, as my honourable friend for Corby did, to proposals to

:24:16.:24:24.

develop the urgent care hub at the hospital, a one-stop shop to enable

:24:25.:24:27.

patients to use primary card facilities rather than A by having

:24:28.:24:32.

them cola catered in Ketterhng. They would enable rapid assessment,

:24:33.:24:36.

diagnosis and treatment by appropriate Health and Soci`l Care

:24:37.:24:39.

Act professionals, and patidnt streamed into the appropriate

:24:40.:24:43.

treatment area to minimise delay and reduce the need for admissions. This

:24:44.:24:46.

is best practice across the NHS to relieve pressure on clinici`ns in

:24:47.:24:55.

the A Department. The honourable member has raised the possibility of

:24:56.:24:58.

capital investment for development of this hub and the Departmdnt's

:24:59.:25:05.

position has not changed. Wd are looking to the trust to takd

:25:06.:25:08.

responsibility to develop and take forward their own capital investment

:25:09.:25:11.

proposals and trusts such as Kettering can apply to the

:25:12.:25:17.

independent financing facilhty for a capital investment alone. And they

:25:18.:25:21.

need to be working closely with local planning authorities to ensure

:25:22.:25:25.

that developer infrastructure contributions can be taken hnto

:25:26.:25:29.

account as a source of fundhng. I hope that these plans will be

:25:30.:25:33.

successful as they emerge and as I have indicated, and one of ly visits

:25:34.:25:40.

North if I am allowed on a suitable date when I am not required here in

:25:41.:25:44.

the chamber, I hope I will found an opportunity to visit Ketterhng.

:25:45.:25:50.

Order, order, the House stands adjourned.

:25:51.:25:52.

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