Browse content similar to 26/10/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Good morning. Welcome to BBC Parliament's live coverage of the | :01:52. | :01:56. | |
Commons. In half an hour, Theresa May will be facing Jeremy Corbyn, | :01:57. | :02:02. | |
plus assorted backbench MPs for the latest round of Prime Minister's | :02:03. | :02:06. | |
Questions. Steve Reid will then introduce a bill under the ten | :02:07. | :02:11. | |
minute rule on and paternitx leave after premature births. The main | :02:12. | :02:16. | |
business in the chamber tod`y are general debates led by Labotr. The | :02:17. | :02:19. | |
first on the performance of concentric scum of the comp`ny | :02:20. | :02:22. | |
contracted to administer tax reclaims. The governors dechded they | :02:23. | :02:27. | |
will have a control renewed following complaints it withdrew tax | :02:28. | :02:32. | |
credits incorrectly. The second debate is on the conflict in Yemen. | :02:33. | :02:39. | |
Join me for the round-up at 11pm tonight. First questions to James | :02:40. | :02:44. | |
broken shower. Order. Questions to the Secretary of | :02:45. | :03:05. | |
State for Northern Ireland. Mr Speaker, before I answer thhs | :03:06. | :03:09. | |
question, I'm sure the Housd will want to join with me in condemning | :03:10. | :03:15. | |
the murder of Joe Reilly last week in Belfast. My sympathy is with his | :03:16. | :03:20. | |
family and the local communhty. It's a stark reminder of why we lust | :03:21. | :03:24. | |
continue to work together to ensure that this sort of violence has no | :03:25. | :03:30. | |
place in Northern Ireland. With permission I will ask you qtestions | :03:31. | :03:36. | |
one and three together. The UK and Northern Ireland economics of | :03:37. | :03:40. | |
fundamentals are strong. In Northern Ireland, economic activity hncreased | :03:41. | :03:46. | |
by 1.6% and 64,000 more people are in work since 2010. This me`ns we | :03:47. | :03:49. | |
are well placed to build a stronger economy that works for everxone We | :03:50. | :03:54. | |
welcome the growth in the Northern Ireland economy, particularly as the | :03:55. | :04:00. | |
employment has now fallen shnce Labour's great recession. Also | :04:01. | :04:04. | |
welcome as last week's news about investment. Will my right honourable | :04:05. | :04:08. | |
friend continue to prioritise making a case for Northern Ireland as a | :04:09. | :04:15. | |
great place to be? I entirely endorse his comments and I won't | :04:16. | :04:20. | |
tire in talking about the Northern Ireland economy and underlining what | :04:21. | :04:24. | |
a great place it is. He highlights the issue of investment and outside | :04:25. | :04:32. | |
of London, Northern Ireland is the leading region for attracting | :04:33. | :04:34. | |
investment across a range of different sectors. He's right to | :04:35. | :04:42. | |
highlight the new investment we are seeing. | :04:43. | :04:49. | |
The economy Northern Ireland is doing well. That is my honotrable | :04:50. | :04:55. | |
friend agree that the devolttion of Corporation Tax offers further | :04:56. | :04:57. | |
opportunities to boost the private sector and build a stronger economy? | :04:58. | :05:07. | |
I can underline that we stand by our commitments to the devolution of | :05:08. | :05:10. | |
Corporation Tax powers subjdct to the conditions around fiscal | :05:11. | :05:13. | |
discipline and financial st`bility as agreed in a Fresh Start @greement | :05:14. | :05:19. | |
in the Northern Ireland executive who have indicated they want to see | :05:20. | :05:25. | |
corporation typesetters are on from April 2018 and estimate it could | :05:26. | :05:31. | |
create many more jobs. I john with him about the recent murder that has | :05:32. | :05:36. | |
taken place and support that we redouble our efforts to enstre these | :05:37. | :05:40. | |
things all of the past. Would he agree with me that in terms of | :05:41. | :05:45. | |
building the economy and strengthening the economy of | :05:46. | :05:47. | |
Northern Ireland that investment in infrastructure is vital? Thd delay | :05:48. | :05:58. | |
in the project is about accdss to airports and thoroughfares `nd the | :05:59. | :06:03. | |
rest of Northern Ireland is a bit of a blow to that strategy. Wotld it | :06:04. | :06:09. | |
take the opportunity to reiterate that all EU projects signed off | :06:10. | :06:13. | |
before we leave will be funded even if they continue after we ldave He | :06:14. | :06:20. | |
makes an important point about the continuance of EU funding and he | :06:21. | :06:27. | |
will have noted the statements made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, | :06:28. | :06:30. | |
underlining the Government will guarantee funding for structural and | :06:31. | :06:34. | |
investment fund projects signed off until the point the UK leavds the | :06:35. | :06:39. | |
EU. Even where projects continue after we've left. It is important to | :06:40. | :06:44. | |
underline our message and there should be more projects comhng | :06:45. | :06:46. | |
forward and we should continue to benefit from the EU funding until | :06:47. | :06:53. | |
departure. Underlining that important commitment that should | :06:54. | :06:57. | |
allow investments go ahead... On the issue of exports Northern Ireland | :06:58. | :07:06. | |
was the only area last year that actually grew exports by 9.4%. Will | :07:07. | :07:11. | |
he commit the new Department for International trade and work closely | :07:12. | :07:16. | |
with Invest NI to continue `bout positive news along with many other | :07:17. | :07:21. | |
very positive economic indicators for the province? He's right to | :07:22. | :07:28. | |
underline that the value of goods exported from Northern Irel`nd and | :07:29. | :07:34. | |
increase up to ?6.6 billion. That underlines the strength of the | :07:35. | :07:41. | |
economy. Yes, the underlying clearly the UK approach to his work in terms | :07:42. | :07:47. | |
of ensuring there is likely a message of seeing further investment | :07:48. | :07:50. | |
and exports coming from Northern Ireland. My fight shrink is | :07:51. | :07:57. | |
important to the Northern Ireland economy with recent job losses at | :07:58. | :08:02. | |
Michigan, what is the Secretary of State is to save Corcoran | :08:03. | :08:05. | |
manufacturing jobs and help create more in Northern Ireland? I think | :08:06. | :08:13. | |
he's right to highlight the role that manufacturing plays in the | :08:14. | :08:16. | |
Northern Ireland economy. It contributes more than 85,000 jobs, | :08:17. | :08:21. | |
some 10% of employment. The high skill it provides... We will work | :08:22. | :08:27. | |
with the executive over those issues or skills and in terms of sdeing | :08:28. | :08:31. | |
that pathway into employment. It is notable that we've seen record | :08:32. | :08:38. | |
employment levels and want to see that picture continuing and | :08:39. | :08:40. | |
underlining the further invdstment we want to see. The Minister will be | :08:41. | :08:47. | |
at aware that professional services provide jobs for some 31,000 people | :08:48. | :08:53. | |
and generates more than 6% of economic output. What can hd tell us | :08:54. | :08:55. | |
about what the Government is doing to ensure Northern Ireland will have | :08:56. | :08:59. | |
passport if a financial services after Brexit so that the industry is | :09:00. | :09:07. | |
not damage? I can underline to hurt the work I've done secular state to | :09:08. | :09:11. | |
reach out to the business community and establish a new advisorx group | :09:12. | :09:17. | |
were one of the sectors we've been meeting with has been a fin`ncial | :09:18. | :09:21. | |
services sector. We are listening keenly to the information providing | :09:22. | :09:25. | |
as we frame our all UK approach to the negotiations ahead in tdrms of | :09:26. | :09:38. | |
the EU. On the back of the comments about being compensated for losses | :09:39. | :09:42. | |
due to Brexit, the Secretarx of State for Scotland said a fortnight | :09:43. | :09:46. | |
ago that whatever support ptt in place for businesses in the North of | :09:47. | :09:49. | |
England will apply to busindsses in Scotland. Without liturgy phvotal | :09:50. | :09:54. | |
role in Northern Ireland, whll he confirm to the House that hhs | :09:55. | :09:57. | |
Government's policy will apply to Northern Ireland as it would appear | :09:58. | :10:02. | |
to Scotland on the North of England? I can say to him that we take an all | :10:03. | :10:09. | |
UK approach. That's the way the Chancellor has been approaching his | :10:10. | :10:13. | |
announcements in relation to support in respect of post you departure, | :10:14. | :10:19. | |
ensuring we do have a UK wide approach and indeed the preparations | :10:20. | :10:22. | |
he looks forward to it his @utumn Statement. Is that sense of | :10:23. | :10:27. | |
supporting the UK with Northern Ireland being a core part. The Armed | :10:28. | :10:36. | |
Forces covenant is making a real difference in Northern Irel`nd. | :10:37. | :10:40. | |
Funding bids from the fund have been more successful in Northern Ireland | :10:41. | :10:44. | |
than any other part of the TK. Grants made include ?450,000 to | :10:45. | :10:52. | |
combat stress and help veterans mental health. Also, ?6,000 to a | :10:53. | :10:56. | |
nursing home in Belfast to dnable it to a more bed spaces for veterans | :10:57. | :11:04. | |
needing nursing care. Frankly, the response... But on the battlefield | :11:05. | :11:10. | |
Northern Ireland requires these grants. They've not been successful. | :11:11. | :11:18. | |
Does he consider this fellow was Stubbs will it take to addrdss this | :11:19. | :11:23. | |
imbalance cell groups like the on the battlefield to be successful? | :11:24. | :11:30. | |
Can I commenced him for sectring the largest proportion of the bhg parts. | :11:31. | :11:40. | |
The point he makes about securing those from funds is very important | :11:41. | :11:44. | |
and I'm willing to sit and talk about how we can support th`t | :11:45. | :11:52. | |
package. Well at the Ministdr confirm that he and the Secretary of | :11:53. | :11:56. | |
State have the determination and will to eliminate all impedhments to | :11:57. | :12:02. | |
the full implementation of the Armed Forces covenant in Northern Ireland? | :12:03. | :12:09. | |
I don't think I need to go `ny further. Just to reassure, H want | :12:10. | :12:15. | |
the best possible services for our veterans and I want to see that | :12:16. | :12:18. | |
implemented in full and will do everything to ensure that h`ppens. | :12:19. | :12:25. | |
Can I just add to the comments and the Honourable friend that H went | :12:26. | :12:30. | |
there as the minister with responsibility for veterans I was | :12:31. | :12:35. | |
deeply struck and perhaps only an English person can say this, by the | :12:36. | :12:40. | |
complete lack of drive to ensure all local authorities sign up for the | :12:41. | :12:43. | |
military covenant just in the way they do across the whole of the UK | :12:44. | :12:49. | |
and there's no reason why it shouldn't be in effect in Northern | :12:50. | :12:52. | |
Ireland just as it is elsewhere in the UK. | :12:53. | :12:59. | |
I agree and every council should participate. I get an opportunity to | :13:00. | :13:07. | |
meet lots of councils and I know lots are making a massive | :13:08. | :13:10. | |
contribution, but where people are not, I can reassure her, I will push | :13:11. | :13:12. | |
those councils. May I disagree that the covdnant is | :13:13. | :13:24. | |
working especially well in Hreland. There's 100 million for the whole | :13:25. | :13:28. | |
lot. Can we make sure some of it is used to make sure the mechanisms | :13:29. | :13:33. | |
work? We need a nominee on the committee and give the support | :13:34. | :13:36. | |
needed for soldiers and othdr champions get some help. | :13:37. | :13:44. | |
I will support the gentleman if he wants to go onto the committee. I | :13:45. | :13:51. | |
know this is a big issue, I say this as an ex-service personnel person | :13:52. | :13:55. | |
myself, but I want to make sure this works. It is devolved and it is up | :13:56. | :13:59. | |
to the executive to make thhs work. As somebody with a history hn this | :14:00. | :14:06. | |
area, I will assist you with in any way I can to assure it is ddlivered. | :14:07. | :14:13. | |
The shadow of the past crimds heavily over the questions that have | :14:14. | :14:17. | |
been asked and there are many and client graves here. It is now 4 | :14:18. | :14:23. | |
years since the atrocity of the Dublin bombing, can I ask the | :14:24. | :14:28. | |
Minister in view of a recent vote, what contact and communicathon he | :14:29. | :14:31. | |
has with the Irish government in this question? First of all, can I I | :14:32. | :14:41. | |
agree, and appalling act 42 years ago and I offer my sympathids to the | :14:42. | :14:46. | |
families of those who are lost. There is a continuing dialogue with | :14:47. | :14:49. | |
the Irish government and thd Foreign Minister, and we will continue that | :14:50. | :14:52. | |
and I am quite happy to havd discussions if you want to know | :14:53. | :14:55. | |
further about the progress we are making. Question number four. With | :14:56. | :15:02. | |
smashing I will ask questions for, six and seven together. I h`ve met | :15:03. | :15:06. | |
and will continue to meet whth counterparts in the Irish government | :15:07. | :15:10. | |
as we went to the challenges and opportunities ahead. The UK and | :15:11. | :15:13. | |
Irish relationship has never been stronger. It is a unique | :15:14. | :15:17. | |
relationship and we will strengthen corporation to help secure the best | :15:18. | :15:22. | |
outcome from the EU negotiations. I think he will agree that thd Common | :15:23. | :15:25. | |
travel area within the UK and open border with Ireland and Northern | :15:26. | :15:37. | |
Ireland have sent us a decade. Will he ensure these arrangements | :15:38. | :15:40. | |
continue and there will be no establishment of hard borders within | :15:41. | :15:46. | |
the island of Ireland? I agree with his comments, the Common tr`vel area | :15:47. | :15:49. | |
has served us well over manx years and we were party to the Colmon | :15:50. | :15:55. | |
travel area before we joined the EU and it is a priority that wd do not | :15:56. | :16:00. | |
return to the borders of thd past. I am pleased to hear the secrdtary | :16:01. | :16:03. | |
reassure us that the Common travel area is a key priority. Givdn that | :16:04. | :16:09. | |
citizens of EU countries will be able to move freely to live and work | :16:10. | :16:12. | |
in the Irish Republic, doesn't that make a nonsense of the Leavd | :16:13. | :16:16. | |
campaign claims that Brexit meat-eating -- Brexit means we can | :16:17. | :16:24. | |
take control of our borders? This government is clear that movement | :16:25. | :16:28. | |
cannot consider as it does today. We are considering carefully mhgration | :16:29. | :16:33. | |
and border policy to ensure it acts in the best interests of thd United | :16:34. | :16:37. | |
Kingdom. Security cooperation between our two countries is vital | :16:38. | :16:42. | |
to fight against organised crime and terrorism. As we leave the DU, will | :16:43. | :16:46. | |
the Secretary of State ensure that this continues to be a priority in | :16:47. | :16:50. | |
his ongoing discussions? I hnto highly agree, there is very strong | :16:51. | :17:00. | |
relationships and practices between the police agencies, these will | :17:01. | :17:04. | |
continue to be valuable in the future and we are determined to | :17:05. | :17:08. | |
maintain it. In discussing these matters that the government of the | :17:09. | :17:12. | |
Irish Republic, we do have ` number of institutions that have bden | :17:13. | :17:17. | |
established including the Northside ministerial Council. Will the | :17:18. | :17:20. | |
Secretary of State in sure that these are the body through which | :17:21. | :17:23. | |
discussions take place and not some ad hoc arrangement? The honourable | :17:24. | :17:29. | |
gentleman rightly highlights the structures that have been in place | :17:30. | :17:34. | |
since the Belfast agreement, the North-South ministerial Council the | :17:35. | :17:36. | |
British Irish Council which will meet again in a few weeks' time | :17:37. | :17:40. | |
These are important and valtable structures that can and will be used | :17:41. | :17:44. | |
in terms of supporting the negotiations ahead as well `s the | :17:45. | :17:50. | |
new joint ministerial committee Given that Her Majesty 's government | :17:51. | :17:53. | |
and Irish government and political parties in Northern Ireland wants to | :17:54. | :17:56. | |
see the special relationship continue and the soft border | :17:57. | :18:02. | |
continue, isn't it thereford incumbent on the European Union to | :18:03. | :18:05. | |
allow us to exit on the terls that will enable us to preserve that | :18:06. | :18:12. | |
relationship? He underlines a very significant point which is the | :18:13. | :18:15. | |
supports that other EU membdr states have provided to the political | :18:16. | :18:20. | |
process in Northern Ireland over many years. It is a point wd have | :18:21. | :18:24. | |
underlined and the Irish gunmen have underlined, and we will continue to | :18:25. | :18:29. | |
do so as we look towards those - Irish government have underlined, | :18:30. | :18:33. | |
and we will continue to do so as we do these negotiations. Charlie | :18:34. | :18:40. | |
Flanagan said that he views his role as the sole guarantor of thd Good | :18:41. | :18:44. | |
Friday agreement as a duty, and he will be ensuring that all aspects of | :18:45. | :18:50. | |
that international agreement will be used. Does the Secretary of State | :18:51. | :18:56. | |
recognised that that will include the need for bespoke and explicit | :18:57. | :19:00. | |
reflection of the key consthtutional precept in the Good Friday `greement | :19:01. | :19:08. | |
in any new treaty? The Irish and UK Government are co-signatorids of the | :19:09. | :19:12. | |
Belfast agreement and I havd said on a number of occasions that we stand | :19:13. | :19:17. | |
behind our commitments. There are unique circumstances that operate on | :19:18. | :19:19. | |
the island of Ireland, that is the Common travel area, other ilportant | :19:20. | :19:24. | |
things like the single electricity market, and we are determindd to | :19:25. | :19:30. | |
find the right solution that serve Northern Ireland well and all of the | :19:31. | :19:37. | |
all Ireland issues. The recdnt referendum, Northern Ireland voted | :19:38. | :19:39. | |
to remain, a large part due to the issues of the border with the Irish | :19:40. | :19:43. | |
Republic. It is a key issue of the Secretary of State and for walking | :19:44. | :19:47. | |
-- working families. What is the policy of the government related to | :19:48. | :19:52. | |
the border? As I have underlined, the government is determined that we | :19:53. | :19:56. | |
will not see a return to thd borders of the past, we will see a | :19:57. | :20:00. | |
strengthening of the Common travel area, work that has been ongoing for | :20:01. | :20:04. | |
many months and continues whth the Irish government, reflecting those | :20:05. | :20:06. | |
important issues he has highlighted on the movement of people, goods and | :20:07. | :20:10. | |
services, but also that sense of politics and identity which is why | :20:11. | :20:17. | |
this is such a priority. He wants to take back control of our borders, | :20:18. | :20:20. | |
and particularly this border, at the same time he says he wants to keep | :20:21. | :20:24. | |
the Common travel area and the current arrangements. Isn't that | :20:25. | :20:28. | |
contradictory nonsense? And will not be the EU that aside in the end | :20:29. | :20:32. | |
because it is the Republic Bader, so what conversations has he h`d with | :20:33. | :20:38. | |
the U on this matter? The honourable gentleman is wanting to get into | :20:39. | :20:40. | |
negotiations that have not started as yet. I would underline hhm that | :20:41. | :20:48. | |
shared will, that shared colmitment between ourselves, the Irish | :20:49. | :20:51. | |
government and the Northern Ireland executive, to support the Common | :20:52. | :20:54. | |
travel area, to see that we do not see a return to the borders of the | :20:55. | :20:57. | |
past and that is the work wd have ahead of us. Mr Speaker, as we have | :20:58. | :21:05. | |
heard this morning, there are huge concerns | :21:06. | :21:18. | |
in Northern Ireland about the specific problems posed by Brexit. | :21:19. | :21:24. | |
One of the fundamental issuds that has not been addressed is the fate | :21:25. | :21:27. | |
of the Good Friday agreement which is in an international agredment,. | :21:28. | :21:33. | |
Can he tell us what mission -- measures he is taking to ensure this | :21:34. | :21:36. | |
is not left behind in the w`ke of Brexit. The government remahns fully | :21:37. | :21:39. | |
committed to the political settlement and the instituthon set | :21:40. | :21:43. | |
out in the Belfast agreement and all of its successors. The key | :21:44. | :21:46. | |
principles established therd, the details that have been taken over | :21:47. | :21:49. | |
successive governments, are things that we do not want to answdr for, | :21:50. | :21:53. | |
that we will be maintaining, and I can ensure him of the focus we are | :21:54. | :21:56. | |
giving to this. Question nulber five. Following my appointmdnt, I | :21:57. | :22:06. | |
established an advisory grotp to ensure the voice of business is | :22:07. | :22:09. | |
heard. It is clear that our focus now needs to be on what we can | :22:10. | :22:14. | |
achieve in terms of trade, jobs and exploit the opportunities of the | :22:15. | :22:21. | |
UK's exit from the EU. The Secretary of State referred a few minttes ago | :22:22. | :22:25. | |
to taking a whole country approach to the EE referendum. -- EU | :22:26. | :22:33. | |
referendum negotiations. He spoke to the British bankers Association | :22:34. | :22:36. | |
recently about the specific needs of the banking industry. If spdcial | :22:37. | :22:39. | |
privileges in terms of the single market are afforded to the City of | :22:40. | :22:43. | |
London, will Secretary of State be asking for the same privileges for | :22:44. | :22:47. | |
Northern Ireland? I would s`y to the honourable gentleman that it is my | :22:48. | :22:50. | |
precisely why I have set up my advisory group, why I am spdaking to | :22:51. | :22:55. | |
individual sectors within the Northern Ireland economy, to ensure | :22:56. | :22:58. | |
their voice is heard as we prepared for the negotiations ahead, and | :22:59. | :23:02. | |
ensure that where there are specific issues and concerns, they are heard | :23:03. | :23:05. | |
as part of those preparations and reflected into the negotiathons | :23:06. | :23:11. | |
Does my right honourable frhend not agree that leading European Union | :23:12. | :23:16. | |
enables the Northern Ireland economy to be rebalanced in favour of the | :23:17. | :23:20. | |
private sector rather than the public sector? Order, far too many | :23:21. | :23:23. | |
very noisy private conversations taking place in the chamber. I can | :23:24. | :23:29. | |
scarcely hear the dulcet tones of the honourable gentleman and I feel | :23:30. | :23:33. | |
considerably disadvantaged. My honourable friend rightly identify | :23:34. | :23:38. | |
the opportunity that we need to look at in terms of seeing greatdr focus | :23:39. | :23:43. | |
on enterprise in the Northern Ireland economy where there has been | :23:44. | :23:47. | |
significant reliance for thd state on employment. We need to work on | :23:48. | :23:52. | |
skills and a virginity is and that is what we are during. We are | :23:53. | :23:56. | |
discussing matters appertaining to Northern Ireland. Northern Hreland | :23:57. | :24:04. | |
members should must be heard. I am sure the Secretary of State would | :24:05. | :24:09. | |
agree with me that the innovation and entrepreneurial spirit of the | :24:10. | :24:12. | |
businesses in Northern Irel`nd, especially the SMEs, are second to | :24:13. | :24:16. | |
none. Whenever they are facdd with Brexit, they are up for the | :24:17. | :24:20. | |
challenge. And that is a message that I have heard very clearly. Some | :24:21. | :24:25. | |
fantastic innovative business within Northern Ireland, some great family | :24:26. | :24:30. | |
businesses as well. And how we want to support them to take that next | :24:31. | :24:34. | |
step to grow their business, look at those new opportunities for exports, | :24:35. | :24:36. | |
and how we have a great opportunity to do that. Question number eight, | :24:37. | :24:47. | |
please. The government takes part in regular direct discussions with the | :24:48. | :24:51. | |
Irish government through a number of forums including the upcoming | :24:52. | :24:56. | |
British Irish Council. We whll ensure we engage closely with all | :24:57. | :25:02. | |
relevant partners to ensure the best outcome for Northern Ireland. Sorry, | :25:03. | :25:09. | |
Mr Speaker. I would welcome the earlier comments of the Secretary of | :25:10. | :25:13. | |
State about the increase in employment, that is very important. | :25:14. | :25:17. | |
But in the light of the significant damage to the British econoly, as a | :25:18. | :25:22. | |
result of the referendum, the dramatic fall in the value of | :25:23. | :25:26. | |
sterling and the increase in the price of food and fuel, does the | :25:27. | :25:30. | |
Secretary of State access that many businesses in Northern Irel`nd are | :25:31. | :25:35. | |
frightened that the damage hn the Northern Ireland economy will be | :25:36. | :25:37. | |
magnified relative to the British economy? I would reiterate to the | :25:38. | :25:43. | |
honourable gentleman, I think the strong base that we see with record | :25:44. | :25:47. | |
levels of employment, with dxports that have grown significantly, and | :25:48. | :25:51. | |
also continuing foreign dirdct investment, I will continue to | :25:52. | :25:54. | |
champion business in Northern Ireland to underline that Northern | :25:55. | :25:58. | |
Ireland remains open for business, and how we do see a number of firms, | :25:59. | :26:02. | |
how we see a number of firms that are continuing to invest and create | :26:03. | :26:06. | |
jobs and that is something we will continue to welcome. Mr Spe`ker in | :26:07. | :26:14. | |
a constituency that has four counties bordering us from the | :26:15. | :26:18. | |
Republic of Ireland, what specific issues Wilbert Minister be racing | :26:19. | :26:23. | |
with his -- will the Ministdr be racing with his counterparts in | :26:24. | :26:29. | |
Ireland to ensure that can continue? I have had two meetings with the | :26:30. | :26:35. | |
Irish president and the Irish Foreign Minister with more leetings | :26:36. | :26:38. | |
and discussions to come. We have the British Irish Council meeting coming | :26:39. | :26:43. | |
up in a few weeks, clearly the issues around the border, protecting | :26:44. | :26:48. | |
the Common travel area, not seeing a return to the borders of thd past is | :26:49. | :26:52. | |
a priority, but also a shardd objective. If I may say polhtely, | :26:53. | :27:01. | |
spit it out, sufficiently, lan! With the Secretary of State agred with me | :27:02. | :27:05. | |
that over the course of the last few months, there have been reports from | :27:06. | :27:09. | |
the retail and trade in Northern Ireland a along the border of a | :27:10. | :27:16. | |
multi-million pound boom for shoppers in the Irish Republic and | :27:17. | :27:19. | |
we should do more to encour`ge that as we go towards Christmas? I have | :27:20. | :27:25. | |
seen those reports, and certainly when I was visiting a number of | :27:26. | :27:29. | |
towns in and around the border area, they were underlying some of the | :27:30. | :27:33. | |
growth of opportunities, growth and business and that is somethhng we | :27:34. | :27:42. | |
welcome. Number nine, sir. Lr Speaker, the threats from Northern | :27:43. | :27:44. | |
Ireland relating to terrorism continues to be severe. Meaning an | :27:45. | :27:50. | |
attack is highly likely. Our response to terrorism and | :27:51. | :27:55. | |
paramilitary activity is coordinated, effective and fully | :27:56. | :27:59. | |
resourced. This government's focus is keeping people safe and will | :28:00. | :28:05. | |
ensure terrorism never succdeds Does the Minister agree with me that | :28:06. | :28:13. | |
it is damaging to both the security situation in Northern Ireland and | :28:14. | :28:18. | |
the peace process who are former members of the Armed Forces cleared | :28:19. | :28:21. | |
on multiple occasions are now arrested for events that took place | :28:22. | :28:25. | |
14 years ago? Will he agreed to meet me around a broad issue of the case | :28:26. | :28:31. | |
of Corporal Dennis Hutchings? Can I thank him for his question. Criminal | :28:32. | :28:36. | |
investigations and prosecuthons are a matter for the police and the | :28:37. | :28:41. | |
prosecuting authorities, who act independently of government and | :28:42. | :28:43. | |
politicians. The government therefore cannot comment on an | :28:44. | :28:47. | |
individual case. But on the broader issue that he raises, I am lore than | :28:48. | :28:52. | |
willing to discuss with him. Thank you, Mr Speaker. There have been | :28:53. | :29:00. | |
1631 release officers injurdd - police officers injured in the past | :29:01. | :29:03. | |
two years or assaulted whilst on duty, a quarter of all of Northern | :29:04. | :29:07. | |
Ireland's police service. When will the Northern Ireland Office fund and | :29:08. | :29:11. | |
support new recruitment drive to bring us back up to 7800 officers as | :29:12. | :29:19. | |
required? Can I condemn all of those attacks on those officers, | :29:20. | :29:23. | |
absolutely appalling. I would say this is a devolved matter for the | :29:24. | :29:26. | |
executive to make a decision on recruitment and numbers. But the | :29:27. | :29:33. | |
Minister agree with me that the best way to tackle paramedic tre`t | :29:34. | :29:40. | |
activity -- paramilitary activity and criminality is a communhty wide | :29:41. | :29:43. | |
approach outlined by the SDLP in last year's talks, rather than | :29:44. | :29:47. | |
throwing money at paramilit`ry organisations? I understand what the | :29:48. | :29:53. | |
honourable lady says, but jtst to give comfort, we have ensurdd that | :29:54. | :30:03. | |
the money is there, we are working with the executors to be able to | :30:04. | :30:06. | |
deliver that and look forward to a report in the near future. | :30:07. | :30:19. | |
This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. I | :30:20. | :30:24. | |
shall have further such meetings later today. In the Black Country in | :30:25. | :30:32. | |
the West Midlands, we are vdry proud of our long, industrial herhtage. We | :30:33. | :30:38. | |
are also very proud of the recent revival in the fortunes of the Black | :30:39. | :30:41. | |
Country with new jobs and investment in the local economy. With the Prime | :30:42. | :30:44. | |
Minister agree with me not one of the ways to create an econoly which | :30:45. | :30:48. | |
works for everyone is to further devolved powers and funding to the | :30:49. | :30:52. | |
West Midlands to drive investment and to combine that with thd strong | :30:53. | :30:58. | |
leadership and vision that only Andy Street can provide, the Conservative | :30:59. | :31:06. | |
candidate for West Midlands? Thank you. Our honourable friend speaks up | :31:07. | :31:10. | |
well for the Black Country. I am pleased to echo his comments about | :31:11. | :31:14. | |
the economic growth in the West Midlands. Since 2010 we havd seen | :31:15. | :31:21. | |
220,000 more jobs, 55,000 more new businesses in the region thought he | :31:22. | :31:25. | |
is right that evolution deal is important. It is the biggest deal, | :31:26. | :31:30. | |
devolution deal that is being done, for the West Midlands. Part of that | :31:31. | :31:34. | |
is crucially the election of a directly elected mayor. Andx Street, | :31:35. | :31:40. | |
with his local knowledge and business experience, will drive | :31:41. | :31:48. | |
economic growth. Jeremy Corbyn. Thank you. Could I stop by welcoming | :31:49. | :31:52. | |
the child refugees who have arrived in Britain in the last few days | :31:53. | :31:56. | |
question that they are obviously deeply traumatised and we should | :31:57. | :31:59. | |
welcome and love them and stpport them in the best way we can. | :32:00. | :32:05. | |
Irrespective party, when melbers of this House go through health | :32:06. | :32:09. | |
problems, we reach out a hand of support. I want to pay tribtte to | :32:10. | :32:15. | |
the member for Grantham and Stamford for the social media messagd he sent | :32:16. | :32:18. | |
out this morning which shows amazing humour and bravery and we whsh him | :32:19. | :32:23. | |
all the very best and hope he fully recovers. There are now to be | :32:24. | :32:27. | |
regular sessions of the joint ministerial Council to disctss | :32:28. | :32:32. | |
Brexit. It seems the Prime Minister's counterparts are already | :32:33. | :32:34. | |
feeling the same sense of frustration as members of this | :32:35. | :32:38. | |
House. The First Minister P`ul Wales, Carwyn Jones, said there is a | :32:39. | :32:44. | |
great deal of uncertainty that they need full and unfettered access to | :32:45. | :32:48. | |
the single market. Can the Prime Minister help the First Minhster of | :32:49. | :32:51. | |
Wales and the other devolved Administration is by giving them | :32:52. | :32:57. | |
some clarity? First of all can I commend the Home Office for the work | :32:58. | :33:02. | |
that has been done in ensurhng that it is working carefully to look at | :33:03. | :33:07. | |
the best interests of the child refugees, so they are provided with | :33:08. | :33:10. | |
the support they need when they come here to the United Kingdom. Can I | :33:11. | :33:15. | |
also join him in commending my honourable friend the member for | :33:16. | :33:18. | |
grants and Stamford, for behng willing to be so open about the | :33:19. | :33:23. | |
health problem he has, and we wish him all the very best for the future | :33:24. | :33:28. | |
and for his place here in this House. In relation to the issue of | :33:29. | :33:33. | |
clarity on the aim is the Government has in relation to Brexit, H have | :33:34. | :33:36. | |
been very clear and I will be clear again. | :33:37. | :33:44. | |
There are those who talk about means and those who talk about ends. I am | :33:45. | :33:52. | |
talking about ends. What we need to see is the best possible arrangement | :33:53. | :33:57. | |
for trade with an operation within the single European market for | :33:58. | :34:01. | |
businesses in goods and services here in the United Kingdom. I'd | :34:02. | :34:05. | |
thought moment the Prime Minister was to say Brexit means Brexit | :34:06. | :34:16. | |
again. There are others... H am sure she will tell us one day wh`t it | :34:17. | :34:21. | |
actually means. The Mayor of London also added this is causing | :34:22. | :34:24. | |
unnecessary certainty but it is also very important uncertainty. It would | :34:25. | :34:36. | |
be very helpful if the Primd Minister could provide some clarity | :34:37. | :34:41. | |
over the Northern Ireland border. Will we continue membership of the | :34:42. | :34:46. | |
customs union will be sea border checks introduced between Northern | :34:47. | :34:50. | |
Ireland and the Republic? The Leader of the Opposition tries to poke fun | :34:51. | :34:56. | |
at the phrase, Brexit means Brexit. The whole point is this. Brdxit it | :34:57. | :35:05. | |
is this government which is listening to the voice of the | :35:06. | :35:14. | |
British people. Brexit means Brexit and that means we are coming out of | :35:15. | :35:19. | |
the European Union. What thd Right Honourable gentleman appears to be | :35:20. | :35:22. | |
doing is frustrating the well of the British people by saying Brdxit | :35:23. | :35:25. | |
means something completely different in relation to the Northern Irish | :35:26. | :35:29. | |
border, a considerable amount of work was already going on whth the | :35:30. | :35:34. | |
Irish government to look at issues around the Common travel arda. That | :35:35. | :35:38. | |
work is continuing. We have been very clear, the Government of the | :35:39. | :35:42. | |
Republic of Ireland has been very clear. The Northern Ireland | :35:43. | :35:45. | |
Executive has been very cle`r. None of us want to see a return to the | :35:46. | :35:49. | |
borders of the past. I would remind the right honourable gentlelan that | :35:50. | :35:58. | |
the Common travel area has been in place since 1923. That is wdll | :35:59. | :36:02. | |
before either of us joined the European Union. Mr Speaker, on | :36:03. | :36:07. | |
Monday, the Prime Minister said the customs union was not a bin`ry | :36:08. | :36:12. | |
choice. I can't think of anxthing other than a binary choice hs | :36:13. | :36:16. | |
whether you have a border or do not have one. There is not a thhrd way | :36:17. | :36:22. | |
on that one. On Monday, her friend, the honourable member for Broxtowe, | :36:23. | :36:25. | |
expressed concern of the automotive and aerospace industries whhle the | :36:26. | :36:32. | |
British banking Association said its members are poised, quivering, over | :36:33. | :36:36. | |
the relocate button. Every day the Prime Minister dithers over the | :36:37. | :36:43. | |
chaotic Brexit, there are rtmours circulating about relocation. This | :36:44. | :36:47. | |
cannot carry on until March of next year. When will the Prime Mhnister | :36:48. | :36:54. | |
come up with a plan? I have to say to the right honourable gentleman, | :36:55. | :36:57. | |
the fact that he seems to confuse a customs union with a border where | :36:58. | :37:07. | |
they are two different issuds, it shows why it is important that it is | :37:08. | :37:13. | |
this party that is in government and not his. He talks about the plan. I | :37:14. | :37:18. | |
have been very clear that wd want to trade freely - both trade and | :37:19. | :37:28. | |
operate within the single m`rket. I want this country to be a global | :37:29. | :37:32. | |
leader in free trade. The L`bour Party is against free trade. I want | :37:33. | :37:37. | |
to introduce control on fred movement so that we have an end to | :37:38. | :37:42. | |
free movement. The Labour P`rty wants to continue with free | :37:43. | :37:45. | |
movement. I want to deliver on the will of the British people. He is | :37:46. | :37:49. | |
trying to frustrate the will of the British people. Mr Speaker, there | :37:50. | :37:54. | |
was no answer on the border, which was the question. On Monday, Mr | :37:55. | :38:02. | |
Speaker, the Prime Minister told the house, and I quote that we have a | :38:03. | :38:07. | |
plan not to set out at everx stage of the negotiation the detahls. I | :38:08. | :38:12. | |
have been thinking about thhs white couple of days, Mr Speaker. I think | :38:13. | :38:21. | |
when you are searching for the real meaning and importance behind the | :38:22. | :38:27. | |
Prime Minister's statement xou have to consult the great philosophers. | :38:28. | :38:38. | |
The only one I can come up with .. Mr cleverly, calm yourself or you | :38:39. | :38:46. | |
are in peril in your own he`lth All I can come up with Mr Speakdr is | :38:47. | :38:53. | |
Baldrick, who said, our cunning plan is to have no plan. Brexit was | :38:54. | :38:59. | |
apparently about taking back control but devolved governments do not know | :39:00. | :39:03. | |
the plan, businesses do not know the plan, Parliament does not know the | :39:04. | :39:08. | |
plan. When will the Prime Mhnister abandon their shambolic Torx Brexit | :39:09. | :39:11. | |
and develop a plan that delhvers for the whole country? | :39:12. | :39:22. | |
I am interested that the right honourable gentleman shows to | :39:23. | :39:30. | |
support Baldrick. The actor playing Baldrick was a member of thd Labour | :39:31. | :39:36. | |
Party. I will tell the right honourable gentleman what wd are | :39:37. | :39:39. | |
going to deliver. We are gohng to deliver on the vote of the British | :39:40. | :39:43. | |
people, we are going to delhver the best possible deal for tradd in | :39:44. | :39:47. | |
goods and services both with and operating within the Europe`n Union. | :39:48. | :39:52. | |
And we are going to deliver an end to free movement. That is what the | :39:53. | :39:55. | |
British people want and that is what this government will deliver for | :39:56. | :40:03. | |
them. Mr Speaker, three years ago the United Kingdom backed S`udi | :40:04. | :40:07. | |
Arabia former mission of thd UN Human Rights Council. On 28th of | :40:08. | :40:11. | |
October, there are elections again for the UN human rights Council A | :40:12. | :40:16. | |
UN panel has warned that thd Saudi Arabian bombing of Yemen has | :40:17. | :40:21. | |
violated international law. Amnesty International says, executions are | :40:22. | :40:25. | |
on the increase, women are widely discriminated against, torttre is | :40:26. | :40:28. | |
common and human rights organisations are banned. Whll | :40:29. | :40:31. | |
Howard government again be backing the Saudi dictatorship for | :40:32. | :40:38. | |
membership of that committed? - her government. As the right honourable | :40:39. | :40:42. | |
gentleman knows, whether our legitimate human rights concerns in | :40:43. | :40:45. | |
relation to Saudi Arabia, wd raise them. In relation to the action in | :40:46. | :40:50. | |
the Yemen we have been clear that we want those incidents which have been | :40:51. | :40:53. | |
referred to to be properly investigated and we want thd Saudi | :40:54. | :40:57. | |
Arabians, if there are lessons to be learned, to learn lessons. H will | :40:58. | :41:02. | |
reiterate the point I have lade in this House before that our | :41:03. | :41:05. | |
relationship with Saudi Arabia is important. It particularly hmportant | :41:06. | :41:12. | |
relationship in relation to the security of this country and | :41:13. | :41:14. | |
counterterrorism and boiling activities of those who wish to do | :41:15. | :41:19. | |
harm to citizens in the UK. A Yemeni man living in Liverpool told me this | :41:20. | :41:25. | |
week that Yemen is quickly becoming the forgotten crisis. If people are | :41:26. | :41:30. | |
not being killed by bombs, ht is hunger that kills them. The UK needs | :41:31. | :41:34. | |
to use its influence to help the people of Yemen. Bombs exported from | :41:35. | :41:39. | |
Britain are being dropped on Yemeni children by Saudi pilots tr`ined by | :41:40. | :41:43. | |
Britain. If there are war crimes being committed, as the UN suggests, | :41:44. | :41:48. | |
they must be investigated. Hsn't it about time this government suspended | :41:49. | :41:55. | |
its arms sales to Saudi Arabia? The issues are being investigatdd. I say | :41:56. | :41:59. | |
to the right honourable gentleman. We have taken action for thd P is | :42:00. | :42:03. | |
right to refer to the humanhtarian crisis in the Yemen. -- we have | :42:04. | :42:11. | |
taken action. This country hs at the forefront to ensuring humanhtarian | :42:12. | :42:14. | |
aid is provided. I believe this country are governing can bd proud | :42:15. | :42:18. | |
around the world in terms of actions taken. It is important. There was as | :42:19. | :42:23. | |
the station of hostilities hn the Yemen for a period of 72 hotrs over | :42:24. | :42:30. | |
the weekend. -- a cessation. I spoke to the Crown Prince of Abu Dhabi at | :42:31. | :42:34. | |
the weekend. One issue we dhscussed was the importance of trying to find | :42:35. | :42:39. | |
a political solution in Yemdn and trying to see if that cessation in | :42:40. | :42:45. | |
hostilities could be continted, but it has not. The only solution which | :42:46. | :42:49. | |
will work for the Yemen will be to make sure we have that political | :42:50. | :42:51. | |
solution which will give st`bility in the Yemen. Mr Speaker, 20 years | :42:52. | :43:00. | |
ago, a Conservative governmdnt agreed that Christchurch and East | :43:01. | :43:05. | |
Dorset councils could retain their sovereignty, independence, `nd | :43:06. | :43:13. | |
control over their own desthny. Will my right honourable friend `ssure | :43:14. | :43:19. | |
the House that the Government will not agree to the abolition of | :43:20. | :43:24. | |
Christchurch or is Dorset councils against the will of my constituents? | :43:25. | :43:31. | |
My right honourable friend hs right to speak up for his constittents. He | :43:32. | :43:36. | |
is also right that there is not a single model that will work in every | :43:37. | :43:40. | |
part of the country. That is why we believe it is important for local | :43:41. | :43:43. | |
people to come together and determine what is right for them. I | :43:44. | :43:46. | |
know my right honourable frhend is trying to build a consensus and also | :43:47. | :43:50. | |
as to what the right way forward is. It is right that local people are | :43:51. | :43:54. | |
able to respond on the constltation and their concerns are listdned to. | :43:55. | :43:58. | |
The Scottish Poppy Appeal is launched today for parliamentarians, | :43:59. | :44:03. | |
so can I take the opportunity it praise all of the fund raidsers the | :44:04. | :44:07. | |
volunteers and veterans involved and I'm sure colleagues in other parts | :44:08. | :44:10. | |
of the House will commend efforts to raise money for the Poppy Appeal in | :44:11. | :44:14. | |
the rest of the UK as well. Hear, hear. Mr Speaker, one of thd biggest | :44:15. | :44:20. | |
humanitarian catastrophes of our time is in Syria, specifically in | :44:21. | :44:25. | |
Aleppo, where we expect the ceasefire to end shortly and an | :44:26. | :44:29. | |
onslaught to begin. Will thd Prime Minister tell us what efforts the UK | :44:30. | :44:33. | |
is currently undertaking to support a peaceful resolution to thd | :44:34. | :44:37. | |
conflict, but also to deal with those who are exacerbating the | :44:38. | :44:41. | |
situation? Hear, hear. Well, first of all, may join the right | :44:42. | :44:45. | |
honourable gentleman in comlending and praising the work of all those | :44:46. | :44:49. | |
across the whole of the United Kingdom who give their time and | :44:50. | :44:52. | |
efforts to raise money for the Poppy Appeal. It is very important that we | :44:53. | :44:58. | |
never forget those, through many conflict, who have given of | :44:59. | :45:01. | |
themselves for the safety and security of us and it is important | :45:02. | :45:07. | |
that we recognise that and give generously to the Poppy Appdal over | :45:08. | :45:11. | |
the United Kingdom. In relation to Syria, of course it is important to | :45:12. | :45:16. | |
approach this in a number of tracks. We are involved - my right | :45:17. | :45:19. | |
honourable friend the Foreign Secretary, has been involved in | :45:20. | :45:28. | |
discussions with the United States of America, Secretary of St`te, | :45:29. | :45:32. | |
Kerry about looking for a w`y forward. I raised the issue of | :45:33. | :45:36. | |
Russian actions in Syria, particularly the bombing of Aleppo | :45:37. | :45:39. | |
at the European Union at thd end of this week, it was only the `genda | :45:40. | :45:43. | |
because the UK had raised T as a result of that discussion, the EU | :45:44. | :45:46. | |
agreed that should the atrocities continue, then we will look at all | :45:47. | :45:51. | |
available options for taking action to put pressure on Russia to stop | :45:52. | :45:56. | |
their indiscriminate bombing of innocent civilians. I commend the | :45:57. | :46:00. | |
Prime Minister for those endeavours, but it is widely expected that the | :46:01. | :46:06. | |
onslaught on Aleppo will be unleash bid Russian airpower, which is | :46:07. | :46:14. | |
currently steaming across the Mediterranean Bonn a battle group of | :46:15. | :46:20. | |
ships. And in recent years 60 Russian vessels have refuelled and | :46:21. | :46:23. | |
resupplied in Spanish ports. So will the Prime Minister join me `nd EU | :46:24. | :46:28. | |
and NATO Allies in unequivocally calling on Spain to refuse the | :46:29. | :46:36. | |
refuelling? The right honourable gentleman refers to the passage of | :46:37. | :46:40. | |
Russian naval ships and of course on the high seas they are able to | :46:41. | :46:43. | |
travel as they wish, although, of course, when they went throtgh the | :46:44. | :46:47. | |
English Channel they were accompanied by royal naval vessels, | :46:48. | :46:54. | |
as they went through. But, what we have seen, sadly s that the Russians | :46:55. | :47:00. | |
are already able to unleash attacks on innocent civilians on Syria. What | :47:01. | :47:06. | |
happens is that we put pressure on Russia to do what everybody agrees | :47:07. | :47:10. | |
is the only way that we are going to resolve this issue, which is to | :47:11. | :47:14. | |
ensure that we have a polithcal transition in Syria, and th`t's | :47:15. | :47:19. | |
where we should focus our attention. THE SPEAKER: Wendy Morton. | :47:20. | :47:26. | |
Mr Speaker, my constituency of Aldridge Brownhills forms p`rts of | :47:27. | :47:30. | |
the UN West Midlands Combindd can Authority. So there will be new | :47:31. | :47:33. | |
powers being devolved to thd authority and the mayor. Account | :47:34. | :47:36. | |
Prime Minister tell me how these new powers will help my constittents, | :47:37. | :47:41. | |
and local businesses, in sectors such as manufacturing, the | :47:42. | :47:44. | |
automotive industry and bricks ander is a ammics? I can confirm , and | :47:45. | :47:52. | |
ceranics. I confirm the deal will provide the West Midlands whth 1 | :47:53. | :47:57. | |
billion over years for local projects to drive economic growth. | :47:58. | :48:00. | |
This is why it is so import`nt to have a mayor who understands the | :48:01. | :48:05. | |
local area, but also has business expertise, Andy Street to ensure the | :48:06. | :48:07. | |
economic projects are being developed with the interests of the | :48:08. | :48:12. | |
locality in the prime focus for them. I believe that the de`l will | :48:13. | :48:17. | |
deliver more jobs on economhc prosperity across the West Lidlands. | :48:18. | :48:21. | |
It is good for the West Midlands and her condition constituencies and | :48:22. | :48:24. | |
good for the rest of the cotntry as well. The independent inquiry on | :48:25. | :48:28. | |
child sexual abuse was established to deliver long-awaited justice for | :48:29. | :48:31. | |
victims and survivors and to do so it must have their could have, dethe | :48:32. | :48:38. | |
Shirley Observation survivors association represents more than 600 | :48:39. | :48:42. | |
survivors of abuse that took place in Lambeth Council children's homes | :48:43. | :48:47. | |
and has raised concerns abott changes to the inquiry. Will the | :48:48. | :48:52. | |
Prime Minister meet with me and the how many from street that and | :48:53. | :49:01. | |
survivors to ensure action so their confidence can be restored. The | :49:02. | :49:04. | |
whole purpose of the itch Qtiry was to provide justice for thosd whose | :49:05. | :49:08. | |
voices have not been heard for too long and who felt that people in | :49:09. | :49:12. | |
positions of power and insthtutions of the state and other organisations | :49:13. | :49:17. | |
had not heard, their voice, they had not been prepared tolies u listen to | :49:18. | :49:20. | |
them and investigate properly what happened. It is important that | :49:21. | :49:22. | |
victims have confidence in the inquiry. The inquiry is an | :49:23. | :49:26. | |
independent inquiry and it hs up to the inquiry chairman to work with | :49:27. | :49:30. | |
irsour viefrs and victims, which I know the inquiry chairman h`s been | :49:31. | :49:34. | |
doing, but I will certainly ensure that the Home Secretary has heard | :49:35. | :49:37. | |
the representations that thd honourable lady has made and we will | :49:38. | :49:41. | |
take what she has said to us today away and consider very carefully | :49:42. | :49:44. | |
what she said. We all want this inquiry to work properly and to work | :49:45. | :49:48. | |
in the interests of survivors and victims. | :49:49. | :49:54. | |
THE SPEAKER: Trevelyan Trev. The Prime Minister will be `ware | :49:55. | :49:58. | |
that our nation's commitment to our present and former Armed Forces | :49:59. | :50:01. | |
personnel and families by w`y of the Armed Forces could have nanted is a | :50:02. | :50:05. | |
work in progress and whilst we have made important moves there hs much | :50:06. | :50:08. | |
more to do. Will she take this opportunity to I a sure this house | :50:09. | :50:12. | |
of her personal commitments of the values and promises set out in the | :50:13. | :50:15. | |
covenant and pledge to lend her support to efforts to continue the | :50:16. | :50:19. | |
good work begun, to ensure personnel veterans and their families face no | :50:20. | :50:22. | |
disadvantage for the servicd and sacrifice they have all madd for our | :50:23. | :50:26. | |
country? My honourable friend is absolutely right. I know shd has | :50:27. | :50:33. | |
championed the Armed Forces covenant and is a great proponent of our | :50:34. | :50:37. | |
veterans and Armed Forces. Ht is right everybody in this House owes a | :50:38. | :50:40. | |
great debt of gratitude to our veterans and those serving today in | :50:41. | :50:44. | |
our Armed Forces for what they do to keep us safe and secure. And this | :50:45. | :50:48. | |
is' why it is so important that the covenant isn't just a responsibility | :50:49. | :50:52. | |
for the Government, it is actually a national responsibility. We should | :50:53. | :50:55. | |
all be working to ensure th`t those who served us and served us well, do | :50:56. | :51:00. | |
not face disadvantage. It is why we have been doing things like putting | :51:01. | :51:03. | |
money into a forces help-to,buy scheme to help them with hotse, I | :51:04. | :51:08. | |
think the figure is ?200 million. We must continue to do this. I | :51:09. | :51:11. | |
absolutely commit to ensuring this is a Government that contintes to | :51:12. | :51:15. | |
support our set rans and thd members of our Armed Forces. - our veterans. | :51:16. | :51:23. | |
Mr Speaker, last year, my 25-year-old nephew committed suicide | :51:24. | :51:26. | |
after a very short period of depression. His GP had referred him | :51:27. | :51:34. | |
for talking therapy counselling but warned him it would be at ldast six | :51:35. | :51:38. | |
months before he got an appointment. Mr Speaker, these treatments in the | :51:39. | :51:42. | |
NHS are very often a waiting game and a dangerous waiting gamd and a | :51:43. | :51:47. | |
postcode lottery. What is the Prime Minister doing to sort this crisis | :51:48. | :51:52. | |
out? Hear, hear. Can I first of all recognisd and | :51:53. | :51:57. | |
commend the honourable gentleman for raising the personal experidnce that | :51:58. | :52:02. | |
he has of the terrible tragddy that can occur when mental health | :52:03. | :52:06. | |
problems are not properly ddalt with. He raises a very serious issue | :52:07. | :52:11. | |
and it is a serious issue for everybody in this House on how the | :52:12. | :52:15. | |
NHS treats mental health. It is why we have established this concept of | :52:16. | :52:19. | |
parity of esteem forp mental health and physical health in the National | :52:20. | :52:23. | |
Health Service. It is why wd are seeing record levels of funding but | :52:24. | :52:27. | |
the question of talking therapies, which are therapies which are very | :52:28. | :52:35. | |
effective and we have been introducing waiting time st`ndards | :52:36. | :52:38. | |
for this area but I accept there is more to do in this area to dnsure | :52:39. | :52:42. | |
that those with mental health problems are properly treatdd, and | :52:43. | :52:44. | |
are given the care and attention they need. It is an issue not just | :52:45. | :52:50. | |
for the them but for the whole of our society. My right honourable | :52:51. | :52:55. | |
friend became Prime Minister in dramatic and extraordinary | :52:56. | :52:58. | |
circumstances and in my judgment, she has proved more than capable of | :52:59. | :53:05. | |
rising to the many challengds.. ... Hear hear. It was not my right | :53:06. | :53:11. | |
honourable friend's fault that the Chilcot report took seven ydars or | :53:12. | :53:15. | |
more than ?10 million in terms of cost. Now that we know that | :53:16. | :53:20. | |
Parliament was misled, would my right honourable friend we `ssure me | :53:21. | :53:26. | |
that she has a cunning plan to ensure that action is taken. Well, I | :53:27. | :53:34. | |
thank my honourable friend for his comments. Obviously what thd Chilcot | :53:35. | :53:41. | |
report did was an important task but although it did look at - and | :53:42. | :53:48. | |
criticise - the way in which information had been handled in a | :53:49. | :53:52. | |
number of aspects, it did not say that people had set out delhberately | :53:53. | :53:56. | |
to mislead. I think it is ilportant that we recognise that. But it is | :53:57. | :53:59. | |
important, also, that we le`rn the lessons from the Chilcot report and | :54:00. | :54:02. | |
this is' why the national sdcurity advisor is leading a piece of work, | :54:03. | :54:06. | |
an exercise to do precisely that. This was a long time coming, it was | :54:07. | :54:11. | |
a serious report. There is luch in it, we need to ensure that we do | :54:12. | :54:18. | |
learn the lessons from it. THE SPEAKER: Dr Alasdair McDonndll. | :54:19. | :54:22. | |
Question 6, please. THE SPE@KER Get in there, man, let's hear it. The | :54:23. | :54:26. | |
Prime Minister will be award that much of the foundation and lany of | :54:27. | :54:30. | |
the elements of the 1988 settlement, the peace agreement in Northern | :54:31. | :54:35. | |
Ireland was referenced and rooted in EU approaches and processes of laws | :54:36. | :54:40. | |
and that leaving the EU will significantly destabilise the | :54:41. | :54:42. | |
foundations of that settlemdnt, has the Prime Minister given anx | :54:43. | :54:46. | |
consideration to the extent of the potential damage the EU withdrawal, | :54:47. | :54:51. | |
from the European Union, cotld do to do Good Friday Belfast agredment | :54:52. | :54:55. | |
under the 1998 political settlement and does she at this stage have any | :54:56. | :55:00. | |
plan to protect that settlelent Can I say to the honourable gentleman, I | :55:01. | :55:04. | |
don't believe there is any reason to believe that the outcome of the | :55:05. | :55:07. | |
referendum will do anything to undermine the absolute rock solid | :55:08. | :55:09. | |
commitment of this Government and the people of Northern Irel`nd, to | :55:10. | :55:13. | |
the settlement that was set out in the Belfast agreement. And there is | :55:14. | :55:21. | |
and remains strong support for the entirely peaceful future for | :55:22. | :55:24. | |
Northern Ireland. That has been determined by democracy and consent. | :55:25. | :55:28. | |
We remain committed to that and we remain committed to work with others | :55:29. | :55:31. | |
to ensure that entirely peaceful future. | :55:32. | :55:39. | |
THE SPEAKER: Jeremy Lefroy General Electrihas shown its confiddnce in | :55:40. | :55:43. | |
the UK economy and my consthtuents by starting construction of the | :55:44. | :55:48. | |
second of its two new world class research and manufacturing | :55:49. | :55:54. | |
facilities on Staffordshire County Council's redhill business park | :55:55. | :55:58. | |
would the Prime Minister medt with General Electric and other West | :55:59. | :56:00. | |
Midland manufacturers who hdar how important that may have chahns and | :56:01. | :56:04. | |
markets, free of tariffs and bureaucracy are of them and their | :56:05. | :56:09. | |
hundreds of thousands of st`ff. I'm delighted to hear of the colmitment | :56:10. | :56:13. | |
made to Stafford but it is lore than a commitment to Stafford. It is a | :56:14. | :56:17. | |
commitment to the UK and to the future of our economy here hn the | :56:18. | :56:20. | |
UK. I understand my right honourable friend, the international Trade | :56:21. | :56:23. | |
Secretary, has already met with GE, to discuss with them, their | :56:24. | :56:26. | |
interests in trade and what we can be doing to promote free tr`de. As I | :56:27. | :56:31. | |
have said earlier, I want the UK to be a global leader in free trade and | :56:32. | :56:34. | |
we are listening to businesses around the country, in the | :56:35. | :56:38. | |
importance that they place on free trade, as we look at the | :56:39. | :56:44. | |
negotiations for exiting thd EU Speak Jim Dowd. Is the Primd | :56:45. | :56:48. | |
Minister aware of the recent reports showing the continuing and `larming | :56:49. | :56:52. | |
increase in average alcohol consumption in the UK, and | :56:53. | :56:57. | |
particularly, amongst women? Given the numerous health risks associated | :56:58. | :57:01. | |
with excessive alcohol constmption, will her Government, togethdr with | :57:02. | :57:05. | |
the drinks industry, reexamhne the case for mandatory health w`rnings | :57:06. | :57:08. | |
on all alcoholic products? Hear hear. Well, I recognise what the | :57:09. | :57:14. | |
honourable gentleman raises in terms of the figures that have bedn shown | :57:15. | :57:17. | |
recently, and particularly the figures in relation to women and the | :57:18. | :57:21. | |
use of alcohol. Of course, H was part, as Home Secretary, part of the | :57:22. | :57:24. | |
development of the alcohol strategy that the Government produced a few | :57:25. | :57:28. | |
years ago. I'm pleased to s`y that at that time we were working well | :57:29. | :57:32. | |
with industry to encourage them to ensure that they could take steps to | :57:33. | :57:37. | |
have an impact on the drinkhng habits of the nation. | :57:38. | :57:43. | |
THE SPEAKER: Maggie Troup. Thank you Mr Speaker. With the final decision | :57:44. | :57:51. | |
on the eastern route of HS2 imminent, it is important for the | :57:52. | :57:54. | |
infrastructure, and additional traffic this will bring to the areas | :57:55. | :57:59. | |
around the station hubs, with this in mind will my honourable friend | :58:00. | :58:03. | |
back my campaign for a new phase of the M1 to ensure that Erewash | :58:04. | :58:09. | |
residents don't get stuck in a jam? I seem to recall I first met my | :58:10. | :58:13. | |
honourable friend when she was campaigning on an issue in relation | :58:14. | :58:16. | |
to motorways and she's absolutely right, in order to support the rail | :58:17. | :58:20. | |
infrastructure, we need to dnsure that the right roads infrastructure | :58:21. | :58:24. | |
is there. And that's why we are investing ?15 billion in thd road | :58:25. | :58:29. | |
investment strategy. That's about boasting local economies and | :58:30. | :58:31. | |
boasting growth and seeing further economic growth. I understand | :58:32. | :58:35. | |
highways England ark looking at the issues in the eefted Midlands and | :58:36. | :58:40. | |
looking at Brigging forward significant new road enhancdments | :58:41. | :58:44. | |
around the site of the East Midlands HS2 station and going forward, they | :58:45. | :58:48. | |
are looking at an audit of roads in the area. I trust my honour`ble | :58:49. | :58:51. | |
friend will make her voice heard on this issue and that of her | :58:52. | :58:55. | |
constituents as she has dond in the past Can I return the Prime Minister | :58:56. | :58:59. | |
to the answer she gave to mx friend for Hull. Because the Conservative | :59:00. | :59:03. | |
manifesto promised shorter NHS waiting times for those who need | :59:04. | :59:09. | |
help with their mental health. But as prescriptions for antidepressants | :59:10. | :59:13. | |
still rise, my constituents in Wirral, who need talking thdrapies, | :59:14. | :59:18. | |
have to wait a month for referral, and well over four months for | :59:19. | :59:22. | |
treatment. So was that Tory manifesto just words, or will the | :59:23. | :59:25. | |
Prime Minister ever deliver? Hear, hear. | :59:26. | :59:32. | |
I gave a serious answer to her honourable friend, which is that we | :59:33. | :59:36. | |
have been looking at the whole issue of talking therapies and thd | :59:37. | :59:39. | |
availability of talking thex are pains the waiting times that relate | :59:40. | :59:43. | |
to talking therapies. And wd do want to improve the options that people | :59:44. | :59:48. | |
have for having access to t`lking therapies, precisely becausd they | :59:49. | :59:51. | |
have been shown to be so successful in so many cases. So this is | :59:52. | :59:54. | |
something that the Government is working on. We will continud to work | :59:55. | :59:59. | |
on it to provide, as we havd said, that parity of esteem betwedn mental | :00:00. | :00:02. | |
health and physical health hn the National Health Service. | :00:03. | :00:10. | |
And understand that ignore the Guild of transport for south-west London | :00:11. | :00:14. | |
and particularly for Wimbledon. Can she assure me that the Government | :00:15. | :00:19. | |
still supports Crossrail two and will she asked the Secretarx of | :00:20. | :00:22. | |
State to set out the timetable for the delayed consultation? Wdll, I | :00:23. | :00:27. | |
can absolutely give the comlitments that we continue to support cross | :00:28. | :00:34. | |
will too. We are waiting to see a robust business case and a proper | :00:35. | :00:39. | |
funding proposal in relation to Crossrail two. My right honourable | :00:40. | :00:43. | |
friend the Transport Secret`ry will give out a timetable in rel`tion to | :00:44. | :00:47. | |
this, but I can assure my rhght honourable friend, as a forler | :00:48. | :00:50. | |
Wimbledon Ian, that we are `ware of his interest in the Wimbledon to | :00:51. | :00:54. | |
Waterloo aspects of this and the needs of the local area are being | :00:55. | :01:03. | |
taken into account. Mr Speaker, in the Indian occupied Kashmir, over | :01:04. | :01:06. | |
the last three months, 150 people have died, 600 have been blhnded by | :01:07. | :01:12. | |
the use of pellet guns, over 16 000 have been injured many crithcally, | :01:13. | :01:17. | |
unexplained disabilities, food shortages, what the Prime Mhnister | :01:18. | :01:20. | |
meet with me and cross partx colleagues to discuss the htman | :01:21. | :01:25. | |
rights abuses and the issue of self-determination for Kashlir | :01:26. | :01:30. | |
people and set out the resolution of the UN in 1948? And can she raised | :01:31. | :01:36. | |
this matter... Extremely gr`teful. Prime Minister. The honourable lady | :01:37. | :01:41. | |
sets out her case and the issues that she has identified in relation | :01:42. | :01:46. | |
to this. I take the same vidw as this Government has since it came | :01:47. | :01:50. | |
into power and indeed previously, which is that the issue of Kashmir | :01:51. | :01:55. | |
is an issue for India and P`kistan to sort out. The Foreign Secretary | :01:56. | :02:02. | |
has heard her reputation... Her representations, and I'm sure will | :02:03. | :02:04. | |
be interested in taking those issues up with her. Several months ago I | :02:05. | :02:11. | |
raised the issue of enhanced medical assistance of the Turkish pdople | :02:12. | :02:18. | |
with the Prime Minister, thd former premiers. I then look to thd new | :02:19. | :02:21. | |
Prime Minister. With the opdration to free morsel on going, will she | :02:22. | :02:25. | |
meet with me and members of the Kurdish regional Government to | :02:26. | :02:29. | |
discuss if we can provide specialist medical facilities here in the UK, | :02:30. | :02:33. | |
for instance, ten beds were seriously injured people and to | :02:34. | :02:36. | |
ensure that the forces on the ground are getting all the support they | :02:37. | :02:40. | |
need because I understand the short of heavy weapons and basic dquipment | :02:41. | :02:45. | |
such as helmets and body arlour My honourable friend is right `nd I | :02:46. | :02:48. | |
recognise this is an issue that he has raised before. I would firstly | :02:49. | :02:52. | |
say that what we have seen hs that the coalition activity that is | :02:53. | :02:56. | |
taking place is actually having some impact and is having an imp`ct as we | :02:57. | :03:00. | |
wish you to in relation to Dyas There are not planned at thd moment | :03:01. | :03:06. | |
either to do what he has suggested in his question or to provide a | :03:07. | :03:11. | |
field hospital and field medical capabilities from the United | :03:12. | :03:14. | |
Kingdom, but we do continually review what we are doing in support | :03:15. | :03:19. | |
of the coalition and of course, we are also as part of the trahning | :03:20. | :03:23. | |
that we are providing, that does include training in the provision of | :03:24. | :03:29. | |
medical facilities. Mr Speaker, I'm sure we all recognise the rdmoval of | :03:30. | :03:32. | |
the camp at Calais as not a long-term solution to the ongoing | :03:33. | :03:36. | |
humanitarian crisis. Can thd Prime Minister tell us what the Government | :03:37. | :03:39. | |
is going to do to learn frol experiences in Calais and to speed | :03:40. | :03:43. | |
up of vulnerable individuals as is committed to under the schele. | :03:44. | :03:49. | |
Individuals are already being brought to United kingdom under the | :03:50. | :03:53. | |
dubs amendments, in addition to the resettlement scheme for vulnerable | :03:54. | :03:57. | |
Syrians that we had, the 20,000 that will come to the UK over thd course | :03:58. | :04:02. | |
of this Parliament and in addition to the 3000 vulnerable people, | :04:03. | :04:06. | |
children and others, who we will be picking up from the Middle Dast and | :04:07. | :04:10. | |
north Africa, working with TNHCR to make sure that it is right for the | :04:11. | :04:14. | |
individuals to come here to the United Kingdom and that thex have | :04:15. | :04:17. | |
support when they get here, but I would remind the honourable | :04:18. | :04:20. | |
gentleman that it is this country that is the second-biggest bilateral | :04:21. | :04:23. | |
donor in relation to humanitarian aid in this area region and we are | :04:24. | :04:28. | |
able to support and provide for more people in the region and I think | :04:29. | :04:33. | |
that is the right thing to do. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Around Heathrow, | :04:34. | :04:39. | |
regal air quality limits have been breached. Over Twickenham, noise | :04:40. | :04:44. | |
pollution has increased according to Heathrow data. Can the Primd | :04:45. | :04:50. | |
Minister explain how a third runway can be delivered and comply with | :04:51. | :04:54. | |
pollution legal requirements? Does she agree, environmentally, Heathrow | :04:55. | :05:01. | |
is not good enough and cannot possibly be both bigger and better? | :05:02. | :05:10. | |
The Government looked very closely at this issue of air qualitx and | :05:11. | :05:15. | |
environmental impacts on all three schemes that were proposed by the | :05:16. | :05:18. | |
airports commission. We took extra time to look at those from the | :05:19. | :05:23. | |
decision to take increased `irport capacity in the south-east. We | :05:24. | :05:26. | |
wanted to look more particularly at the quality issues. The evidence | :05:27. | :05:29. | |
shows that air quality standards can be met as required by all three of | :05:30. | :05:34. | |
the schemes, including the North West runway at Heathrow. My | :05:35. | :05:37. | |
honourable friend raises an issue that is actually about more than | :05:38. | :05:40. | |
airports because the question of air quality is also about road transport | :05:41. | :05:46. | |
and that's why we are looking to do more in relation to what we are | :05:47. | :05:51. | |
doing for air quality. It's why for example, I am pleased to sed that we | :05:52. | :05:54. | |
are at such a leading edge hn the provision of electric vehicles. The | :05:55. | :06:00. | |
Prime Minister's real plan for Brexit seems to be to pick winners, | :06:01. | :06:04. | |
to cut a special deal for the City of London, to let the bankers of | :06:05. | :06:08. | |
boys the dire consequences of leaving the economic union... Hear, | :06:09. | :06:18. | |
hear. Wales has an exporting economy with a surplus last year and 20 ,000 | :06:19. | :06:21. | |
jobs dependent on staying whthin the European Union. A soft Brexht for | :06:22. | :06:27. | |
her friends in the city, a hard Brexit for everyone else? Whll she | :06:28. | :06:32. | |
cut a similar deal for Wales? I will be cutting the best deal for the | :06:33. | :06:40. | |
United Kingdom, all part of it. Every year, hundreds of people are | :06:41. | :06:46. | |
diagnosed, supper and usually die from rare diseases such as cystic | :06:47. | :06:49. | |
fibrosis and rare cancers which there is no treatment for which the | :06:50. | :06:53. | |
current drugs are prohibitively expensive. We see report thhs week | :06:54. | :07:01. | |
which sets out a way to get discounted prices to the NHS. Will | :07:02. | :07:04. | |
the prime and is me in welcoming that review which is welcomdd by | :07:05. | :07:10. | |
patients, charities, and encourage NHS England to bring it in speedy. | :07:11. | :07:19. | |
This is important in terms of patients being able to get better | :07:20. | :07:22. | |
access to drugs and equipment. I think United Kingdom has established | :07:23. | :07:25. | |
a leading role in relation to life sciences. I would pay tribute to my | :07:26. | :07:29. | |
friend for the role he has played in developing life sciences here in the | :07:30. | :07:32. | |
United Kingdom. I know the Department of Health will bd looking | :07:33. | :07:36. | |
very closely at the specific recommendations from that rdport. | :07:37. | :07:40. | |
But we will be doing so in the light of recognising that if we c`n take | :07:41. | :07:44. | |
opportunities through the N`tional Health Service to be encour`ging the | :07:45. | :07:48. | |
development of new drugs to benefit patients then we should do so. The | :07:49. | :07:55. | |
predators are just told us that record levels of spending are going | :07:56. | :07:58. | |
to Meta health services. He`lth Secretary stood at that dispatch box | :07:59. | :08:01. | |
on the 9th of December and told us that the proportion of fundhng going | :08:02. | :08:05. | |
into mental health from all of our CCGs should be increasing. Why is it | :08:06. | :08:11. | |
then the 57% of CCGs are reducing the proportion of spent in lental | :08:12. | :08:15. | |
health's yet another broken promise. When we will we have real epuality | :08:16. | :08:20. | |
for Meta health in our country? The fact that I set out is we are | :08:21. | :08:26. | |
spending record levels on mdntal health is absolutely right. And I | :08:27. | :08:28. | |
said in response to a number of people who have questioned the best | :08:29. | :08:31. | |
that we recognise there is lore for us to do in mental health and I | :08:32. | :08:35. | |
would have thought that we should have cross-party support on doing | :08:36. | :08:40. | |
just that. Speaking outside ten Downing St on the day she bdcame | :08:41. | :08:44. | |
Prime Minister, my right honourable friend said, if you suffer from | :08:45. | :08:47. | |
mental health problems, there is not enough help to hand. Can I welcome | :08:48. | :08:51. | |
my right honourable friend's commitments in mental health | :08:52. | :09:00. | |
expressed on that day... He`r, hear. And in her responses today. And then | :09:01. | :09:04. | |
I asked her what steps she hs taking to mixture that bold ambitions of | :09:05. | :09:08. | |
the Government's forward vidw for mental health are achieved? I'm | :09:09. | :09:15. | |
pleased to say that in fact what we see, far from the comments `nd | :09:16. | :09:18. | |
impressionist is given by some of the comments opposite, is that since | :09:19. | :09:26. | |
2009-10, around 750,000 mord people are accessing talking therapies and | :09:27. | :09:30. | |
1400 more people are accesshng mental health services everx day | :09:31. | :09:34. | |
compared to 2010, so that is up by 40%. But my honourable friend, who I | :09:35. | :09:38. | |
know has a particular interdst in this issue, and a particular ends | :09:39. | :09:42. | |
were teased in this area, is right that we need to do more and that is | :09:43. | :09:46. | |
why we are continuing to invest in mental health services and | :09:47. | :09:48. | |
continuing to increase the standards that we provide. Thank you, Mr | :09:49. | :09:57. | |
Speaker. Just 20 children are diagnosed with inoperable brain | :09:58. | :10:00. | |
tumours as a result of Chu Beres squirrels has every year, and yet | :10:01. | :10:06. | |
despite earlier indications at NHS England turned it down further | :10:07. | :10:10. | |
funding despite it being affordable. Was she meet with me, charities and | :10:11. | :10:15. | |
fun doing at families to find out how we can get to this pockdt and | :10:16. | :10:19. | |
get this treatment. I'm happy to look at this issue and look in | :10:20. | :10:23. | |
detail at what can be done to take that forward. Order. | :10:24. | :11:32. | |
Order. Ten minute rule motion. Steve Reed. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I beg | :11:33. | :11:47. | |
to me that an amendment will be made to make provision about matdrnity | :11:48. | :11:51. | |
and paternity leave for pardnts of babies born prematurely and for | :11:52. | :11:57. | |
connected purposes. Mr Speaker, having a premature baby is one of | :11:58. | :12:02. | |
the most traumatic experiences that any parent can go through. Hnstead | :12:03. | :12:06. | |
of bringing home a healthy baby that they have longed for, their | :12:07. | :12:10. | |
tiny baby is put inside an incubator, fighting for its life, | :12:11. | :12:15. | |
surrounded by tubes, wires `nd bleeping monitors. Instead of | :12:16. | :12:18. | |
holding their baby clothes, these parents can only watch as their BB | :12:19. | :12:23. | |
struggles to breathe, the spending on life support and intensive care. | :12:24. | :12:27. | |
This can go on for weeks and months before a baby is well enough to go | :12:28. | :12:32. | |
home. The stress, anxiety and worry leads two in every five prelature | :12:33. | :12:37. | |
mothers to suffer mental ill-health. Parents file into debt from the | :12:38. | :12:41. | |
unplanned expense of daily journeys to the hospital, overnight | :12:42. | :12:46. | |
accommodation or eating in inexpensive hospital cafes. One | :12:47. | :12:49. | |
mother told me that her babx spent three months in intensive c`re and | :12:50. | :12:54. | |
at that time was all taken out of her period of statutory matdrnity | :12:55. | :13:00. | |
leave, so her baby suffers twice, first from the serious health | :13:01. | :13:04. | |
complications of being born too soon and second from having less time at | :13:05. | :13:09. | |
home with mum and dad. Vital bonding time that can affect a child's's | :13:10. | :13:12. | |
development for many, many xears to come. I spoke to another mother who | :13:13. | :13:17. | |
told me her employer would not give her the extra time she needdd off | :13:18. | :13:22. | |
work to deal with her premature child's frequent illnesses once she | :13:23. | :13:26. | |
had gone back to work. She lost her job and her family lost that vital | :13:27. | :13:31. | |
extra income. I spoke to a dad who had to go back to work the day after | :13:32. | :13:37. | |
his baby was born, three months too soon, and was fighting for her life | :13:38. | :13:42. | |
in an incubator. Most peopld would agree, his family needed hil more at | :13:43. | :13:47. | |
that time than his employer did but the law did not give him thd support | :13:48. | :13:50. | |
he needed to be there with his family. | :13:51. | :13:54. | |
We should give the parents `re premature babies all the support | :13:55. | :13:59. | |
they need to cope at one of the most traumatic times they will ever | :14:00. | :14:05. | |
experience. I pay tribute to the Croydon man and tireless calpaigner, | :14:06. | :14:11. | |
Katrina Ogle P, who started campaigning on this issue after her | :14:12. | :14:16. | |
beautiful little boys were born prematurely. Over 100,000 pdople | :14:17. | :14:20. | |
have signed an online petithon, and I would like to recognise the | :14:21. | :14:26. | |
outstanding work of the charity Bliss, who campaign for the rights | :14:27. | :14:31. | |
of the premature babies and their families. It is time the law | :14:32. | :14:35. | |
recognised the special needs of premature babies' parents so they | :14:36. | :14:41. | |
can extend their leave and they can give their mouldable babies all the | :14:42. | :14:43. | |
love and care they deserve. This is a measure that command is growing | :14:44. | :14:46. | |
support in the country. It hs the right thing to do and it deserves | :14:47. | :14:55. | |
the support of this house. Order, thank you. The question is the | :14:56. | :15:01. | |
honourable member have leavd to bring in the bill. As many `s are of | :15:02. | :15:04. | |
that opinion, say aye. On the contrary, no.. The ayes havd it Who | :15:05. | :15:15. | |
will prepare the bill. Norm`n Lamb, Stella Creasy, Gareth Thomas, Jenny | :15:16. | :15:19. | |
Chapman, Lynne Brown, Heidi Alexander, Lisa Nandy and mxself. | :15:20. | :15:33. | |
Maternity and paternity leave premature births bill. Second | :15:34. | :15:58. | |
reading what they? Friday 16th of December. Thank you. Order. We now | :15:59. | :16:14. | |
come to the opposition Day lotion, on Concentrix, in the neighbour -- | :16:15. | :16:17. | |
name of the Leader of the Opposition. The topic of today's | :16:18. | :16:24. | |
first opposition day debate affects every single honourable member's | :16:25. | :16:28. | |
constituency. I have receivdd many case studies from honourabld members | :16:29. | :16:31. | |
on this side of the House would like to thank them for their hard work on | :16:32. | :16:37. | |
this issue. Indeed, I welcole the S's comments on today's order | :16:38. | :16:40. | |
paper and I'm very pleased we are on the same page on this issue. -- the | :16:41. | :16:47. | |
SNP's comments. We have also heard how constituents of member hs on the | :16:48. | :16:50. | |
opposite benches have been `ffected by this scandal. My own inbox and | :16:51. | :16:54. | |
postbag have seen a surge in the number of anxious and distrdssed | :16:55. | :16:58. | |
families needing my help after their tax credits have been stoppdd. I | :16:59. | :17:01. | |
would like to take this opportunity to put on record my thanks to my | :17:02. | :17:06. | |
honourable friend the member is for Sheffield, Healey and Slough, the | :17:07. | :17:10. | |
chairs of the Public Accounts Committee, work and pensions | :17:11. | :17:12. | |
committee and Treasury commhttee is, for their hard work on shinhng the | :17:13. | :17:16. | |
spotlight on this very serious issue. I am sure members of this | :17:17. | :17:22. | |
house will assist the minister by illustrating their own cases today, | :17:23. | :17:25. | |
but I will begin my remarks by outlining the shocking yet typical | :17:26. | :17:29. | |
case study brought to my attention recently. The lady in questhon is a | :17:30. | :17:34. | |
single parent with three chhldren and a job. Although at the time of | :17:35. | :17:39. | |
her exchange with Concentrix, she had just had a baby and was on | :17:40. | :17:44. | |
maternity leave. This lady had been accused on two separate occ`sions of | :17:45. | :17:48. | |
living with an undisclosed partner will stop on both of these | :17:49. | :17:51. | |
occasions, she had never met a person. The first time, she was | :17:52. | :17:57. | |
accused of living with a man who turned out to be the former tenant | :17:58. | :18:01. | |
of the housing association flat that she now lives in. And this was | :18:02. | :18:06. | |
sorted out fairly easily. Btt imagine her shock when only months | :18:07. | :18:10. | |
later, she received another letter accusing her of living with another | :18:11. | :18:17. | |
undisclosed partner. When she phoned Concentrix, she was told shd was | :18:18. | :18:21. | |
living with a woman of whom she had never heard. The lady pointdd out | :18:22. | :18:25. | |
that there was absolutely no truth in this accusation and sent all of | :18:26. | :18:29. | |
the requested original doculentation by recorded delivery to Concentrix. | :18:30. | :18:37. | |
She received no response. She gave birth to her first child two weeks | :18:38. | :18:43. | |
later. When the claimant phoned Concentrix, she was told th`t the | :18:44. | :18:46. | |
documents she had sent were not on the system. And she then received a | :18:47. | :18:54. | |
letter cancelling her tax credits. This left her with only matdrnity | :18:55. | :18:59. | |
allowance to live on, and ddmand to repay ?4100. The lady in qudstion | :19:00. | :19:07. | |
then obtained a documentation after Concentrix appeared to have lost the | :19:08. | :19:13. | |
originals, and sent a request for mandatory reconsideration again by | :19:14. | :19:17. | |
recorded delivery to Concentrix By this time, the lady in question was | :19:18. | :19:21. | |
running very short of money and she contacted her member of Parliament | :19:22. | :19:26. | |
for help. When the Parliamentary office investigated the matter, they | :19:27. | :19:31. | |
were told that there was a backlog of mandatory reconsiderations said | :19:32. | :19:34. | |
it could take six weeks for the case to be looked out. By this thme, the | :19:35. | :19:41. | |
lady in question had been w`iting for three months for a resolution to | :19:42. | :19:45. | |
her case. That is three months incomplete stress and turmohl, on | :19:46. | :19:51. | |
the bread line, when she should have been enjoying those precious early | :19:52. | :19:58. | |
moments of her child. Lie. H am extreme -- her child's life. I'm | :19:59. | :20:02. | |
extremely grateful for her giving way. She might like to know that I | :20:03. | :20:06. | |
was contacted Doctor Long ago by woman in a similar situation, she | :20:07. | :20:12. | |
had been accused by Concentrix, and her tax credits cut because they | :20:13. | :20:15. | |
accuse of having a lesbian relation ship with her sister. And it took | :20:16. | :20:22. | |
her coming to her member her Parliament and myself Concentrix | :20:23. | :20:27. | |
calling them before -- callhng Concentrix before they belidved the | :20:28. | :20:31. | |
truth. Isn't it absurd that it takes a direct intervention from `n MP | :20:32. | :20:35. | |
before this ridiculous Compttex people seriously? -- this rhdiculous | :20:36. | :20:44. | |
company takes people seriously? The term it beggars belief comes to mind | :20:45. | :20:49. | |
and his case is not an isol`ted one. After much chasing, it was confirmed | :20:50. | :20:53. | |
that the lady had no test -, connection to this mystery woman, | :20:54. | :20:58. | |
she was paid all the money she was owed and the demand to repax was | :20:59. | :21:02. | |
withdrawn. This is just one example of Concentrix's... I am grateful, we | :21:03. | :21:09. | |
have all got examples of constituents who have had shmilar | :21:10. | :21:13. | |
stories to the one she has just stepped out. What we have got is a | :21:14. | :21:16. | |
complete lack of urgency from the government opposite. People are left | :21:17. | :21:23. | |
destitute by these decisions for no good reason. What we want to hear | :21:24. | :21:27. | |
from the government is they will put some extra resources into expedite | :21:28. | :21:30. | |
investigations into these c`ses so these people are paid out and | :21:31. | :21:34. | |
compensated, and if necessary, at the expense of Concentrix. H thank | :21:35. | :21:39. | |
the honourable member for hhs intervention and I could not agree | :21:40. | :21:44. | |
more. As we know, the case that I have referred to is not isolated. | :21:45. | :21:52. | |
According to the government's own figures, the company have considered | :21:53. | :21:59. | |
667,000 cases, of which 103,000 have been amended. That is 15% of | :22:00. | :22:02. | |
investigations that have wrongly pursued perfectly legitimatd tax | :22:03. | :22:07. | |
credit claimants. And they `re simply the ones who have thd | :22:08. | :22:11. | |
strength to come forward and resent themselves to their MPs, as we have | :22:12. | :22:20. | |
heard. -- present themselves. My experience is that every single one | :22:21. | :22:23. | |
of the Concentrix cases that has been taken up by my office so far, | :22:24. | :22:27. | |
which has been resolved, thd payment has been put back in place. In other | :22:28. | :22:33. | |
words, they are 100% wrong. What is my honourable friend think the | :22:34. | :22:38. | |
government ought to do about that? I thank my honourable friend for her | :22:39. | :22:42. | |
comments and I think the cases we have seen so far are the tip of the | :22:43. | :22:46. | |
iceberg and the government has a responsibility to ensure th`t all | :22:47. | :22:49. | |
cases are adequately investhgated to make sure that no one has f`llen | :22:50. | :22:53. | |
through the cracks and not presented themselves to either their LP or | :22:54. | :22:59. | |
contacted Concentrix them dhrectly. I have spoken in previous ddbates | :23:00. | :23:08. | |
about Capita's failures in delaying disability benefits to vulndrable | :23:09. | :23:12. | |
people, the only difference to me seems to be here the name of the | :23:13. | :23:16. | |
corporation involved. Isn't the fundamental issue that priv`te | :23:17. | :23:20. | |
profit-making companies are failing to deliver vital government | :23:21. | :23:24. | |
services? He makes a very interesting point and I will come on | :23:25. | :23:28. | |
to the issue of the contract and the delivery method of that contract in | :23:29. | :23:32. | |
due course because I think there needs to be a wider investigation | :23:33. | :23:39. | |
and discussion about these sorts of situations. In 2015, there were no | :23:40. | :23:45. | |
appeals of the decision. In the next year, there were 365. And from April | :23:46. | :23:52. | |
to August 2016, there have been 176. A similar spike is clear in the | :23:53. | :23:58. | |
number of mandatory reconsiderations which more than quadrupled between | :23:59. | :24:07. | |
2014-15, and 2015-16. Even lore shocking is that this number almost | :24:08. | :24:10. | |
quadrupled again just to mid August this year. I am very grateftl. Would | :24:11. | :24:19. | |
my honourable friend agree that the government should commit to an | :24:20. | :24:24. | |
official investigation into Concentrix's conduct, said ht was | :24:25. | :24:30. | |
awarded the contract in 2014, so we can know how the situation hs she | :24:31. | :24:34. | |
has described were allowed to happen? I thank her for her comments | :24:35. | :24:39. | |
and I completely agree with what she has to say on this issue. Rdferring | :24:40. | :24:44. | |
back to the figures I have just mentioned, it is hard to believe | :24:45. | :24:49. | |
that the number of fraudulent tax credit claimants suddenly increased | :24:50. | :24:54. | |
so dramatically in these two years. What is clear, however, is that | :24:55. | :24:58. | |
there is an ever-growing evhdence -based testing that Concentrix has | :24:59. | :25:05. | |
been unfairly and unjustly stopping people's tax credits, leaving them | :25:06. | :25:08. | |
in financial difficulty, along with the anxiety that causes. IM pleased | :25:09. | :25:13. | |
that the government has accdnted that this contract was not working. | :25:14. | :25:18. | |
They were forced to concede this point by my honourable friend, the | :25:19. | :25:22. | |
member for Sheffield Healy, when she received an answer to a | :25:23. | :25:24. | |
Parliamentary question earlx last month. The response revealed that | :25:25. | :25:31. | |
since mid-October 2015, there have been 120 incidences where Concentrix | :25:32. | :25:36. | |
has not fully met the performance standards set out in the contract. | :25:37. | :25:43. | |
Out of a total of 1625. Following mounting pressure from honotrable | :25:44. | :25:46. | |
members on this side of the House, the government announced it would | :25:47. | :25:50. | |
not be renewing the Concentrix contract when it ends in Max and | :25:51. | :25:54. | |
they would be redeploying 140 members of HMRC staff to cldar the | :25:55. | :26:01. | |
backlog of cases. I am very grateful for her giving way, she's m`king a | :26:02. | :26:04. | |
powerful case. I wonder whether she is aware that it not actually until | :26:05. | :26:09. | |
October last year that they were even monitoring the perform`nce of | :26:10. | :26:13. | |
Concentrix, as was your field in a Parliamentary question a few weeks | :26:14. | :26:17. | |
ago, and shows why they havd had to remove this contract now? They | :26:18. | :26:23. | |
didn't even know whether Concentrix were performing the service | :26:24. | :26:25. | |
standards they were laid out in the contract. She makes a fantastic | :26:26. | :26:30. | |
point and I have a whole section of my speech devoted to partictlar | :26:31. | :26:37. | |
clauses in the contract that may or may not have been able to bty it off | :26:38. | :26:42. | |
the government. We on this site welcomes this announcement hn terms | :26:43. | :26:46. | |
of redeploying the 150 membdrs of staff and not renewing the contract | :26:47. | :26:49. | |
but we still had serious concerns that Concentrix would still be | :26:50. | :26:53. | |
handling cases and the government had not stated that it would bring | :26:54. | :26:56. | |
the operation back in-house. Following further pressure from | :26:57. | :27:03. | |
Labour and PCS, the union, the government backed down and the union | :27:04. | :27:06. | |
confirmed last week the operation will be brought back in-house with | :27:07. | :27:11. | |
Concentrix staff in Belfast being transferred to HMRC. We of course | :27:12. | :27:14. | |
welcome to this action but this this not even begin to address the wider | :27:15. | :27:21. | |
issues. Out of this situation arise? When did the government first become | :27:22. | :27:27. | |
aware of it? What action did they take? How will they ensure that this | :27:28. | :27:32. | |
does not occur again? And most importantly, when and how whll the | :27:33. | :27:36. | |
victims be compensated? Medha reports were surfacing as f`r back | :27:37. | :27:42. | |
as 2015 in relation to erroneous tax credit decisions being made pursuant | :27:43. | :27:47. | |
to this contract. And as I have outlined, the figures were | :27:48. | :27:50. | |
indicating an unusual spike in appeals. These red flags were there, | :27:51. | :27:53. | |
and they should have been acted upon. And I would like to dhrect the | :27:54. | :27:59. | |
Minister to the contract between HMRC and Concentrix which provides a | :28:00. | :28:03. | |
number of tools the governmdnt had at its fingertips. Section H, clause | :28:04. | :28:08. | |
3.1 of the contract provides that where HMRC is concerned with the | :28:09. | :28:15. | |
delivery of service, it can investigate the matter. So was HMRC | :28:16. | :28:21. | |
concerned, and if so, when? If the Minister cannot answer just yet | :28:22. | :28:24. | |
just to help her pinpoint this information, I will illustr`te the | :28:25. | :28:27. | |
further machinery within thd contract which would have hdlped the | :28:28. | :28:30. | |
government and HMRC find out about any issues pretty swiftly. Clause | :28:31. | :28:38. | |
EE, 7.1, scheduled G providd for reviews of the contract's | :28:39. | :28:41. | |
effectiveness. If she looks at schedule D, she will see subsection | :28:42. | :28:47. | |
4.1, that prior to going live, HMRC will work with Concentrix to | :28:48. | :28:51. | |
establish and agree robust governance framework includhng | :28:52. | :28:56. | |
contract management, Kimi Nhkesh and squalor quality assurance, payment | :28:57. | :29:02. | |
risk management, -- communications and quality assurance, and lost | :29:03. | :29:05. | |
importantly reporting. Can the Minister confirm the details of this | :29:06. | :29:09. | |
robust governance frame Inc for the benefit of the House? If not, I | :29:10. | :29:15. | |
would reassure her there were more options. | :29:16. | :29:20. | |
Section 12.1 states that HMRC will have full access to individtal cases | :29:21. | :29:28. | |
and further to this, Concentrix was under an obligation to let HMRC | :29:29. | :29:33. | |
observe their working methods. So can I ask the Minister if individual | :29:34. | :29:41. | |
cases were reviewed by HMRC and did HMRC investigate the methods used by | :29:42. | :29:47. | |
Concentrix? If so, how often did this occur and what were thd | :29:48. | :29:52. | |
findings of these investigations? So it's clear the Government dhd have | :29:53. | :29:55. | |
the tools to monitor servicd delivery and perhaps they shmply did | :29:56. | :29:59. | |
not use them. The minister will confirm in due course. If they found | :30:00. | :30:05. | |
failings after exhausting a quite reasonable dispute process, also | :30:06. | :30:09. | |
referred to in the contracts, the Government could have exerchsed a | :30:10. | :30:13. | |
break clause found in clausd G3 by giving only three months notice Can | :30:14. | :30:17. | |
the Minister confirm whether this was considered when, and wh`t the | :30:18. | :30:24. | |
outcome of this consideration was? If, however, the answer to `ll of | :30:25. | :30:28. | |
these contractual questions is, I don't know, then I would as the | :30:29. | :30:33. | |
Minister if she is really stre that HMRC has the capacity to monitor | :30:34. | :30:38. | |
this contract effectively? She will be interested to know that ` report | :30:39. | :30:44. | |
on HMRC is due to be published by peace CST union shortly and it | :30:45. | :30:47. | |
suggests the department is `t breaking point. Staff are htgely | :30:48. | :30:52. | |
demoralised, 25% want to le`ve the department immediately or whthin a | :30:53. | :30:55. | |
year and the Department scores below average in all of the measures on | :30:56. | :31:00. | |
the civil service's annual staff survey. It doesn't paint a very | :31:01. | :31:07. | |
happy picture. I thank you for giving way. She is making a forensic | :31:08. | :31:11. | |
case, but is it not also thd situation is behind these f`cts and | :31:12. | :31:16. | |
figures are real human cases of particularly women, particularly | :31:17. | :31:19. | |
single mothers who are being absolutely hammered by Concdntrix | :31:20. | :31:22. | |
and I have constituents in Stoke-on-Trent who are going hungry | :31:23. | :31:26. | |
and their children are going hungry because of the incompetence of | :31:27. | :31:29. | |
Concentrix and that is what we need a minister to answer today. He makes | :31:30. | :31:34. | |
a very powerful point and hd is 100% correct. This is not simply a case | :31:35. | :31:38. | |
of wrapping Concentrix on the back of the hand. There has been real | :31:39. | :31:43. | |
human suffering caused by the contractual feelings and thd | :31:44. | :31:44. | |
Government needs to address these urgently. Thank you for takhng the | :31:45. | :31:52. | |
intervention. Is she aware of this bikes that she talks about hn these | :31:53. | :31:58. | |
claimants are rising in the weeks before conference recess and in the | :31:59. | :32:01. | |
days following when Concentrix worked stripped of the contract We | :32:02. | :32:07. | |
know what is happening. Thex are a drilling down on claimants to avoid | :32:08. | :32:12. | |
the exit clause. I do hope that the Minister has heard his question and | :32:13. | :32:15. | |
will address this in her sulming up because it is a question th`t we all | :32:16. | :32:21. | |
want to hear the answer to. Another issue is indeed the provisions in | :32:22. | :32:24. | |
the contract which relate to payments by delivery. The hdad of | :32:25. | :32:30. | |
the National Audit Office stated in June 2015 about payment by results. | :32:31. | :32:34. | |
They stated, while its supporters argued that by its nature p`yment | :32:35. | :32:39. | |
die result potentially offers value for money, these contracts `re hard | :32:40. | :32:43. | |
to get right which generates risks and costs for commissioners. They go | :32:44. | :32:47. | |
want to state, the increased cost and risk may be justified btt this | :32:48. | :32:53. | |
requires credible evidence. Without such evidence, commissioners may be | :32:54. | :32:57. | |
using this mechanism in circumstances to which it is ill | :32:58. | :33:01. | |
suited to the detriment of value for money. If we look to the contract | :33:02. | :33:08. | |
again, we see that at schedtle A, section 6.1, HMRC required over the | :33:09. | :33:12. | |
duration of the contract th`t concentric squid deliver circa 000 | :33:13. | :33:21. | |
and ?30 million savings in `nnual expenditure. I understand that these | :33:22. | :33:25. | |
were estimates to forecast potential savings, but given the model, how | :33:26. | :33:28. | |
could the position we have been certain in these cases without | :33:29. | :33:34. | |
having a crystal ball? In answer to parliamentary questions, it was | :33:35. | :33:37. | |
revealed that total savings in annually managed expenditurd were | :33:38. | :33:45. | |
2.3 million in 2014-15, 100 22. 3,000,020 15-16, and 159.5 point | :33:46. | :33:56. | |
5,000,016 17 to mid August hn 2 16. Thank you for accepting an | :33:57. | :33:59. | |
intervention. Does she agred with me that these savings were madd by my | :34:00. | :34:06. | |
constituents, 100% of whom, have had their benefits paid back gohng to | :34:07. | :34:10. | |
food banks for the first tile in their lives and that the te`m has | :34:11. | :34:18. | |
seen a spike of over, I think, 0 families going to food banks with | :34:19. | :34:23. | |
problems with their tax credits I thank my honourable friend for her | :34:24. | :34:27. | |
intervention and I think it highlights the human impact that | :34:28. | :34:30. | |
these contractual feelings have had. I myself have had constituents | :34:31. | :34:35. | |
coming to me asking for the addresses of food banks and asking | :34:36. | :34:38. | |
if parcels could be deliverdd to them because they are too ashamed to | :34:39. | :34:44. | |
be seen to be struggling by their communities and to put people in | :34:45. | :34:46. | |
those situations is an absolute disgrace. Hear, hear. In terms of | :34:47. | :34:55. | |
the savings, the total to d`te is 284.1 million since commencdment of | :34:56. | :35:01. | |
the contract in November 2004. Anyone can see that it is an excess | :35:02. | :35:08. | |
of the leap from 2.3 million in 2014 to 149 point 4 million. So does the | :35:09. | :35:17. | |
Minister therefore believe that looking at the figures, there was | :35:18. | :35:20. | |
Seve in massive increase in fraud in the system or would she agrde with | :35:21. | :35:25. | |
assertions that the contract was actually granted in absence of a | :35:26. | :35:30. | |
firm evidence base which did not justify the risks that follow with | :35:31. | :35:34. | |
the payment by results contracts? As I've said, there is a human impacts | :35:35. | :35:39. | |
and a human cost to this. It was not simply a case of slapping Concentrix | :35:40. | :35:44. | |
on the back of the hands and then moving on. This is about thd duty of | :35:45. | :35:51. | |
the Government to preserve justice being abandoned by the profht motive | :35:52. | :35:55. | |
this contract provided. The risks here were real human risks, families | :35:56. | :36:01. | |
forced into destitution, anguish, despair, and all of the associated | :36:02. | :36:05. | |
pressures on an individual's mental health. The payment model could | :36:06. | :36:15. | |
create a conflict of interest and it has been recommended that the | :36:16. | :36:18. | |
National Audit Office examined the contract to ensure it has | :36:19. | :36:21. | |
appropriate safeguards to preserve justice for the claimant. Btt at | :36:22. | :36:28. | |
that stage, there was no investigation, but the Labotr Party | :36:29. | :36:31. | |
has since risen to the National Audit Office and receive thhs | :36:32. | :36:35. | |
response, my team has carridd out preliminary work to look into the | :36:36. | :36:38. | |
issues. Their view is that the contract between HMRC and Concentrix | :36:39. | :36:43. | |
merits further investigation. I m very pleased that the National Audit | :36:44. | :36:48. | |
Office will be investigating this matter, but frankly, the Government | :36:49. | :36:52. | |
must be carrying out a full and transparent enquiries of its own. Mr | :36:53. | :36:57. | |
Speaker, Labour is calling on this debate today for the Governlent to | :36:58. | :37:01. | |
conduct the compounds of investigation into the performance | :37:02. | :37:05. | |
of Concentrix and HMRC's contract with the company, both in tdrms of | :37:06. | :37:09. | |
the adequate enforcement of all the contract terms as I outlined earlier | :37:10. | :37:14. | |
and also indeed the suitability of selecting a payment by results model | :37:15. | :37:17. | |
for delivering a service of this nature. I would also add th`t the | :37:18. | :37:22. | |
National Audit Office confirmed last year that the Government's payments | :37:23. | :37:27. | |
by results schemes accounted for at least ?15 billion of public | :37:28. | :37:32. | |
spending. They go on to state that neither the Cabinet Office nor the | :37:33. | :37:36. | |
Treasury currently monitors how payment by results is operating | :37:37. | :37:44. | |
across Government. She's making a very detailed case about thd defects | :37:45. | :37:48. | |
of this contract, including in relation to payment by results. She | :37:49. | :37:52. | |
not agree with me that what actually exacerbates the problems with this | :37:53. | :37:56. | |
model is that when people dhd have a problem with their tax being | :37:57. | :38:01. | |
withdrawn, they had to complain to Concentrix. They had to go back to | :38:02. | :38:03. | |
the decision maker and naturally, there would be no financial | :38:04. | :38:09. | |
incentive on Concentrix to tnwind a wrong decision? She is corrdct. | :38:10. | :38:15. | |
Sadly, I think in a lot of cases, when they tried to complain to | :38:16. | :38:19. | |
Concentrix, all they receivdd was a dull induced tonsil they did not get | :38:20. | :38:24. | |
very far. Perhaps the Minister could insure the House that she whll also | :38:25. | :38:28. | |
go beyond the scope of todax's motion and also investigate these | :38:29. | :38:32. | |
types of contracts as a widdr issue including putting measures before | :38:33. | :38:37. | |
this House to avoid the incorrect application of payments by results | :38:38. | :38:41. | |
because I fear that Concentrix is just the tip of the iceberg. I thank | :38:42. | :38:48. | |
the honourable member for ghving way. I'm having looked just now at | :38:49. | :38:53. | |
how far back payment by restlts schools. Will new Labour, or old is | :38:54. | :38:58. | |
new Labour, take some responsibility because in fact in 2013-14, we saw | :38:59. | :39:02. | |
payment by results being introduced into the English NHS and condemn it | :39:03. | :39:08. | |
from all sides of the chambdr today. I thank him for his comments and | :39:09. | :39:13. | |
indeed, I think we can all learn lessons from the experiences that we | :39:14. | :39:17. | |
have in reviewing the handlhng of payment by results contracts and it | :39:18. | :39:22. | |
is those experiences that I hope the Minister will take into | :39:23. | :39:24. | |
consideration when she condtcts a review into the delivery of payment | :39:25. | :39:29. | |
by results contracts. I've just got one more paragraph and then I am | :39:30. | :39:34. | |
going to finish, thank you. Finally, Mr Speaker, I want to speak of the | :39:35. | :39:37. | |
victims of this terrible selection of systematic failures. Thex did not | :39:38. | :39:43. | |
deserve to face the hardship they injured. They must be adequ`tely | :39:44. | :39:47. | |
compensated for their losses. While the Minister confirm that they will | :39:48. | :39:54. | |
be compensated, on what bashs, and will she specify a time for this | :39:55. | :39:59. | |
action to occur? Can also confirmed that in addressing this isste and in | :40:00. | :40:04. | |
bringing services back into HMRC, she will mitigate any adverse effect | :40:05. | :40:08. | |
or a reduction in service for claimants and please do keep an eye | :40:09. | :40:12. | |
out for the PCS report becatse it is a real eye-opener. Before I finish, | :40:13. | :40:15. | |
I know the Minister has expdrienced these terrible cases on her own | :40:16. | :40:21. | |
doorstep, she has seen the dffects first-hand. And she seems to be very | :40:22. | :40:27. | |
empathetic soul as such, can she issue an apology on behalf of her | :40:28. | :40:30. | |
Government for the distress and hardship that has been causdd. I | :40:31. | :40:34. | |
think it is the very least our constituents deserve. Thank you The | :40:35. | :40:43. | |
question is as on the order paper. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Obviously, | :40:44. | :40:47. | |
over the past few weeks there have been a number of debates on this | :40:48. | :40:51. | |
House debate in the quality of service from Concentrix in helping | :40:52. | :40:56. | |
HMRC counter fraud in our t`x system and this is an important opportunity | :40:57. | :41:00. | |
to debate this issue again `nd I hope to go a little bit further in | :41:01. | :41:04. | |
providing information to thd House. It is right that we debated over the | :41:05. | :41:08. | |
last few months. It has become clear that despite best efforts of the | :41:09. | :41:12. | |
majority of its front-line staff, Concentrix was failing to mdet the | :41:13. | :41:16. | |
standards we expected and indeed had specified in their contracts. This | :41:17. | :41:19. | |
meant many of those people we have been hearing about in the honourable | :41:20. | :41:24. | |
lady's speech and in intervdntion so far, people like my constittents | :41:25. | :41:28. | |
whose tax credits were being investigated, have been caused | :41:29. | :41:30. | |
needless frustration and distress when it came to resolving their and | :41:31. | :41:36. | |
obviously, we will hear mord, I suspect, as the debate unfolds. I | :41:37. | :41:39. | |
will look to address the spdcific points in the motion over the course | :41:40. | :41:43. | |
of this debate. I think she has accurately speculated there may be | :41:44. | :41:46. | |
aspects of the contractual arrangements that I may need to | :41:47. | :41:50. | |
write to her on in due course for reasons that might become obvious as | :41:51. | :41:59. | |
I go through. The human suffering aspects, can I welcome how puickly | :42:00. | :42:04. | |
she responded to the letter in the memoranda of cases that I stbmitted | :42:05. | :42:09. | |
to her, as did other members, but if we are talking about is not just | :42:10. | :42:13. | |
learning lessons from the contract, how do we quickly get compensation | :42:14. | :42:17. | |
to people who have actually been adversely affected? Will shd give an | :42:18. | :42:22. | |
undertaking today and has she got that in her speech, that those | :42:23. | :42:24. | |
people who have actually had their benefits by Concentrix will be | :42:25. | :42:29. | |
informed of the hardship funds that she has established so they can | :42:30. | :42:34. | |
quickly apply for help? The right Honourable gentleman is right to | :42:35. | :42:37. | |
anticipate that I am going to touch on this issue and I will reflect on | :42:38. | :42:43. | |
the point he makes about thd proactive... Idle zero the | :42:44. | :42:46. | |
arrangement for proactively telling people, but there are arrangements | :42:47. | :42:49. | |
in place. I will go on to them and he can then perhaps that me know if | :42:50. | :42:52. | |
he does not think those werd adequate. I thought actuallx, given | :42:53. | :42:56. | |
that so many members on all sides of the House have made such efforts to | :42:57. | :43:00. | |
support their constituents over recent weeks and the human `spects | :43:01. | :43:04. | |
of this issue are absolutelx uppermost in our minds todax, that | :43:05. | :43:07. | |
the first thing I should do is just bring the House up to date on the | :43:08. | :43:10. | |
action taken to rectify the situation. As I informed thd House | :43:11. | :43:15. | |
last month, starting with the decision on the 13th of September | :43:16. | :43:20. | |
not to pass any new faces to Concentrix, it was instead hntended | :43:21. | :43:24. | |
that they should concentratd on resolving outstanding cases. Staff | :43:25. | :43:29. | |
also stepped in to reinstatd quality customer service, making sure that | :43:30. | :43:31. | |
people could once again get through on the forms. We know how critical | :43:32. | :43:35. | |
that is to be able to get through and actually have your voicd heard. | :43:36. | :43:42. | |
When she answered the urgent question on this, she asked our in | :43:43. | :43:49. | |
situ is to phone that phone line, one of mine phone on the dax after, | :43:50. | :43:53. | |
waiting ages, got through, only to be told because of all the | :43:54. | :43:57. | |
complaints you have been making we are getting sacked, and put the | :43:58. | :44:04. | |
phone down on her. Would th`t not be further distress on people who are | :44:05. | :44:07. | |
already deeply distressed and it is not acceptable? Of course it is not | :44:08. | :44:11. | |
acceptable. I would add that I think the members might be aware, but the | :44:12. | :44:17. | |
MP's phone line hours have been exhibited some weeks in orddr to be | :44:18. | :44:24. | |
able to cope with more calls, to that route. She assured the House | :44:25. | :44:30. | |
that queries would be dealt with within four working girls btt that | :44:31. | :44:33. | |
is not the case and many constituents are still waithng weeks | :44:34. | :44:37. | |
the -- working days but that is not the case and many constituents are | :44:38. | :44:43. | |
waiting weeks from Concentrhx and HMRC for their claims, so c`n she | :44:44. | :44:47. | |
can update us on the timeline? She has given me an apt moment to be | :44:48. | :44:52. | |
clear on what I said on the day Once we had established the fact of | :44:53. | :44:56. | |
the case, people should get paid within four days, clearly some cases | :44:57. | :45:00. | |
are complex and further det`ils are needed. What I said during the | :45:01. | :45:03. | |
urgent question was, once wd established the facts of thd case, | :45:04. | :45:07. | |
it is an automated process that then authorises the payment to bd made | :45:08. | :45:11. | |
within four working days and that is the time and HMRC is working too. | :45:12. | :45:17. | |
HMRC staff stepped in to rehnstate customer service is to make sure | :45:18. | :45:20. | |
that people could get through on the phones. What matters is that we get | :45:21. | :45:26. | |
the right information, establish the facts and get payments started | :45:27. | :45:30. | |
again. This is absolutely critical. To that end HMRC also took back from | :45:31. | :45:36. | |
Concentrix 181,000 cases th`t were incomplete, and staff have been | :45:37. | :45:39. | |
working hard to resolve these. I can update the House that 178,000 of | :45:40. | :45:48. | |
those 181,000 cases have bedn already finalised, that represents | :45:49. | :45:51. | |
90% of them and HMRC have already written to the other 2% and should | :45:52. | :45:56. | |
conclude those cases by the end of the month. I would like to place on | :45:57. | :46:01. | |
record my thanks to HMRC st`ff for the effort in this regard. Those | :46:02. | :46:05. | |
staff are also taking on thd review... Any decision made by | :46:06. | :46:14. | |
Concentrix which is requestdd. I thank her for giving way. What is | :46:15. | :46:18. | |
startling issues talking about 8% being resolved within four weeks. | :46:19. | :46:23. | |
Can you tell us whether there is any evidence whatsoever of thosd 98 , or | :46:24. | :46:30. | |
they should have been pursudd in the first base or it was a bogus fishing | :46:31. | :46:34. | |
expedition which all of us hn this house might believe? It is hmportant | :46:35. | :46:38. | |
to recognise that when a case is resolved, a conclusion based on the | :46:39. | :46:41. | |
fact is released. I cannot give the House a breakdown on whether that is | :46:42. | :46:47. | |
payments reinstated, somethhng that was wrong with the claim, or indeed | :46:48. | :46:51. | |
in a small number of cases ht might have been fraudulent. The point is | :46:52. | :46:55. | |
they have been resolved according to the facts provided, and in the | :46:56. | :46:58. | |
knowledge of the person concerned. But we might be able to provide | :46:59. | :47:01. | |
further breakdown at some point but I'm not in addition to do that | :47:02. | :47:07. | |
today. What I think the House would find especially helpful if to know | :47:08. | :47:12. | |
to what degree Concentrix wdre steered to look for undeclared | :47:13. | :47:17. | |
partners by the government `nd what degree the contract incentivised | :47:18. | :47:22. | |
them to jump to conclusions. I will come onto some other aspect and .. I | :47:23. | :47:29. | |
must make some progress, Mr Speaker may not indulge me too much if I | :47:30. | :47:34. | |
give way. I will see if I c`n figure further intervention later. As | :47:35. | :47:37. | |
honourable members should bd aware, anyone who wishes to challenge any | :47:38. | :47:40. | |
changes made to their tax credit has a right to request a mandatory | :47:41. | :47:44. | |
reconsideration of their case. As of the start of this week, HMRC had | :47:45. | :47:49. | |
received over 26,000 requests and staff have is viewed and resolved | :47:50. | :47:54. | |
over three quarters of thosd, and are up-to-date with these Concentrix | :47:55. | :47:57. | |
reviews. That means resolved in accordance with the facts, does not | :47:58. | :48:01. | |
necessarily mean that all of the, there was a problem in each case. | :48:02. | :48:07. | |
Those remaining cases will be a priority. So that is just to give | :48:08. | :48:19. | |
the House a flavour of what is being happening, checking the right | :48:20. | :48:22. | |
decisions have been made. I know members have been worried about | :48:23. | :48:25. | |
people falling into hardship, quite rightly that has been the source of | :48:26. | :48:28. | |
many of the questions we have been asked. Those people whose D`ve has | :48:29. | :48:34. | |
been incorrectly withdrawn or reduced due to errors. I want to | :48:35. | :48:39. | |
reassure members we have a system in place to support anyone who contact | :48:40. | :48:42. | |
HMRC in such circumstances. They will be helped to request a review | :48:43. | :48:47. | |
of the decision taken, the landatory reconsideration that I have | :48:48. | :48:52. | |
mentioned, those in hardship will receive ?100, normally the following | :48:53. | :49:00. | |
day, while the review is handled. My constituent successfully ch`llenged | :49:01. | :49:06. | |
an erroneous cap Concentrix Yvette. HMRC said she had one of Japan's | :49:07. | :49:11. | |
conversation but warning her might in itself trigger -- she had ?1 0 | :49:12. | :49:17. | |
compensation but warning her that that might trigger an over payment. | :49:18. | :49:23. | |
Can he/she comment? -- can she come it on that? I cannot comment on | :49:24. | :49:29. | |
individual cases, but he is welcome to write to me. If the Housd feels | :49:30. | :49:34. | |
it is useful to hold a membdr drop in for cases like that to bd | :49:35. | :49:37. | |
resolved face-to-face, I'm happy to arrange that. If members ard away of | :49:38. | :49:42. | |
people in such circumstances, in hardship and of course I know many | :49:43. | :49:46. | |
are, they can bring this directly to my attention. I would be gr`teful to | :49:47. | :49:50. | |
all members who have alreadx taken action of this kind and attdnded | :49:51. | :49:57. | |
drop-in sessions. There is ` special hotline for MPs to raise issues and | :49:58. | :50:02. | |
seek information on this issue and we have allocated extra staff to | :50:03. | :50:09. | |
make this service available over greater hours. We are making some | :50:10. | :50:13. | |
progress to put at least to an end to the distress and worry some | :50:14. | :50:17. | |
people have regrettably facdd in this time and we have mechanisms in | :50:18. | :50:21. | |
place to make sure anyone in hardship, as a result of uncertainty | :50:22. | :50:25. | |
and mistakes, will be supported These two things have been our top | :50:26. | :50:30. | |
priority. I wonder if she c`n tell us where the bad information that | :50:31. | :50:35. | |
has been acted on by Concentrix has come from? Because one of the key | :50:36. | :50:40. | |
things about these cases is that the information upon which people's | :50:41. | :50:45. | |
claims have been cancelled has been almost universally poor. And | :50:46. | :50:50. | |
nonsensical. Where has that data come from? A lot of the dat`, most | :50:51. | :50:58. | |
of the data, both HMRC and Concentrix are working on, hs the | :50:59. | :51:00. | |
sort of data that members would expect companies and H Macy to be | :51:01. | :51:06. | |
using this regard. So in thd case of Concentrix, they make referdnce to | :51:07. | :51:13. | |
credit data, and I think a lot of... Because there are so many claims, so | :51:14. | :51:19. | |
many tax credit claims, a lot of the work pointing to where therd might | :51:20. | :51:23. | |
be errors is based on the hhstory of where there have been subst`ntial | :51:24. | :51:25. | |
errors over time and those individuals and people... I must | :51:26. | :51:31. | |
make some progress. And where particular individuals and | :51:32. | :51:33. | |
particular circumstances ard more prone to error. Over the ye`rs that | :51:34. | :51:37. | |
tax credits have been running, quite a substantial picture has bden built | :51:38. | :51:40. | |
up of that bottle of where drror is more likely to exist. We have been | :51:41. | :51:48. | |
working... The right honour`ble memory says it is bad. Therd are a | :51:49. | :51:55. | |
lot of cases of error in thd system and fraud, it is not the case that | :51:56. | :52:00. | |
all this information is, to quote her, bad. Far from it. I will come | :52:01. | :52:08. | |
on to mention the figures involved. All members know there are times | :52:09. | :52:12. | |
where people give them wrong information, mostly because of | :52:13. | :52:14. | |
error, sometimes because of flawed. I will bring make more progress We | :52:15. | :52:22. | |
are working hard to adjust the wider issues. The three main points in | :52:23. | :52:27. | |
today's motion. The Concentrix contract. Regarding the contract, we | :52:28. | :52:32. | |
agree that their performancd fell below the performance stand`rds | :52:33. | :52:35. | |
required and I do not want to ignore the millions of pounds worth of | :52:36. | :52:38. | |
savings they have helped deliver for the taxpayer which might not have | :52:39. | :52:42. | |
been achieved otherwise but when that level of customer servhce is so | :52:43. | :52:45. | |
far below what we expect, it is right we take action as a | :52:46. | :52:49. | |
consequence. First, as set out under the terms of the contract, payment | :52:50. | :52:53. | |
Concentrix will be cut in rdsponse to their failure to adhere to the | :52:54. | :52:58. | |
standards required. Secondlx, as HMRC announced on 13 September, | :52:59. | :53:01. | |
their contract will not be renewed beyond its end date in May 2017 and | :53:02. | :53:09. | |
nor will any further procurdment exercise for tax credit checks be | :53:10. | :53:13. | |
taken forward at this time. And thirdly, HMRC are in discussion with | :53:14. | :53:17. | |
Concentrix to agree at negotiated early exit from the contract. While | :53:18. | :53:25. | |
this may inform, it is just something I have to say, whhlst | :53:26. | :53:28. | |
these commercial discussions are ongoing, I cannot provide all the | :53:29. | :53:36. | |
full details of the exit at this stage but are expected to bd | :53:37. | :53:45. | |
finalised shortly. Whilst mdmbers accept that there have been cases of | :53:46. | :53:52. | |
hardship created, will she `lso accessed that in a written `nswer to | :53:53. | :53:55. | |
the House, the minister indhcated that Concentrix were meeting its 75 | :53:56. | :54:03. | |
service data service level, had an average answer time of six linutes | :54:04. | :54:07. | |
for phone calls, and were m`king decisions within 23 days, and | :54:08. | :54:13. | |
indeed, of all the appeals that went to the Treasury, or HMRC, ott of | :54:14. | :54:23. | |
660,000 cases, only 200 of them or not .6%, were upheld. Would she | :54:24. | :54:30. | |
accept that not all of the blame goes on Concentrix, and Concentrix | :54:31. | :54:34. | |
in many ways did meet the t`rgets but has now been made a scapegoat? | :54:35. | :54:40. | |
Both in the urgent question on 4th September and today in my opening | :54:41. | :54:44. | |
remarks I said that front lhne Concentrix staff had been vdry hard | :54:45. | :54:48. | |
to resolve these issues. Thd problems of a contract like this, | :54:49. | :54:52. | |
the problems of getting through on the phone, I never usually default | :54:53. | :54:54. | |
of the person you finally gdt through to. -- they are nevdr | :54:55. | :54:59. | |
usually the fall of the person you get through to. I suspect the | :55:00. | :55:03. | |
honourable member represents people who work there. I also welcome the | :55:04. | :55:11. | |
statement that we are terminating this contract with Concentrhx, I | :55:12. | :55:14. | |
think that is the right thing to do. I have a number of constitudnts who | :55:15. | :55:22. | |
have suffered this problem, one that provided evidence that they were | :55:23. | :55:26. | |
married, in spite of that, she was identified as someone who lhved | :55:27. | :55:29. | |
elsewhere and lived on her own and was not married. One thing that is | :55:30. | :55:33. | |
available to members of Parliament which we have used is the elergency | :55:34. | :55:36. | |
hotline and the fact that that emergency hardship payments, De she | :55:37. | :55:41. | |
welcomed that fact and should we make that more publicly avahlable | :55:42. | :55:47. | |
that these measures are avahlable to people in hardship? That is exactly | :55:48. | :55:50. | |
right and it is one of the reason why today's debate is timelx, that | :55:51. | :55:55. | |
we are able to focus on that. I will give way to the honourable lady who | :55:56. | :56:02. | |
did so much to work on this matter. She has been very generous. On the | :56:03. | :56:05. | |
contract specifically, it dhd alter last year, can she confirm to the | :56:06. | :56:10. | |
House how the contract was ordered last October, and that it w`s | :56:11. | :56:14. | |
altered because Concentrix were unable to make enough money out of | :56:15. | :56:20. | |
it before October last year? I think if she will forgive me, I whll write | :56:21. | :56:25. | |
to her on that, because as H say, there are commercial discussions | :56:26. | :56:28. | |
ongoing and it would be best for something as detailed as th`t if she | :56:29. | :56:36. | |
is written to. I know time hs precious. On the contract issue I | :56:37. | :56:41. | |
appreciate she cannot divulges the terms of the ongoing negoti`tions | :56:42. | :56:44. | |
for termination of the contract but will she commit to coming b`ck to | :56:45. | :56:48. | |
the House and making a statdment as soon as the terms have been | :56:49. | :56:50. | |
finalised? Could she also provide the information that she can obtain, | :56:51. | :56:57. | |
for example, when was the dhstribute process that examine, -- thd dispute | :56:58. | :57:04. | |
process? We are at the end of the contractual process here, wd just | :57:05. | :57:10. | |
want to know what the timelhne was. Again, there are matters th`t I will | :57:11. | :57:13. | |
return to in part because there are going to be a number of exalinations | :57:14. | :57:17. | |
of this, the National Audit Office have already talked about the work | :57:18. | :57:21. | |
they are going to do. I will come onto that. I am going to signal that | :57:22. | :57:27. | |
I will take one more intervdntion. I have not taken one from my | :57:28. | :57:30. | |
honourable friend. I will t`ke one from the SNP and then I will | :57:31. | :57:34. | |
progress to the end of my speech. I can understand in the challdnges | :57:35. | :57:39. | |
that have been made from thdse sides that she wishes to outsourcd blame | :57:40. | :57:47. | |
purely to Concentrix's door, but this government read the contract | :57:48. | :57:51. | |
and incentivise this behaviour, and also sent personal data is confirmed | :57:52. | :57:56. | |
last week to Concentrix to investigate... I think he h`s | :57:57. | :58:05. | |
concluded his intervention. Far from saying this is all Concentrhx's | :58:06. | :58:09. | |
faults, I think there are ldssons to be learned all round. I shotld | :58:10. | :58:13. | |
signal now that because I think there are lessons to be learned all | :58:14. | :58:17. | |
round for HMRC, feminist is, certainly the Concentrix, I will say | :58:18. | :58:21. | |
to the House now that the -, for minister, I will say to the House | :58:22. | :58:25. | |
now that the government does not intend to divide the House because I | :58:26. | :58:28. | |
want this to be an exercise in learning lessons. I will take one | :58:29. | :58:35. | |
more intervention. I have h`d two Concentrix cases from singld | :58:36. | :58:41. | |
mothers, one of whom was repuired to disprove a relationship she never | :58:42. | :58:44. | |
had from a former tenant. Would she agree that the important thhng now | :58:45. | :58:48. | |
is that this contract from Concentrix has been ended, but a | :58:49. | :58:52. | |
system for investigating mistakes has been put in place and a hardship | :58:53. | :58:54. | |
place has been put in place? We have come back to the hulan | :58:55. | :59:02. | |
factor here and here is absolute right to highlight that this is at | :59:03. | :59:07. | |
the heart of what we do, to get people back on payments werd they | :59:08. | :59:10. | |
should be and will be peopld of hardship. Let me move towards the | :59:11. | :59:14. | |
end of my remarks if I can `s quickly as I can. Mr Speaker has | :59:15. | :59:18. | |
been very indulgent. Among the discussions that are happenhng at | :59:19. | :59:23. | |
the moment, HMRC has agreed the transfer of Concentrix staff to | :59:24. | :59:28. | |
HMRC. Concentrix have begun consulting with their staff on this | :59:29. | :59:31. | |
point and anyone transferring to HMRC will be supported to ftrther | :59:32. | :59:36. | |
training to help us deliver a quality public service. It `lso | :59:37. | :59:40. | |
writes, as the motion suggested as the Shadow Minister challenges that | :59:41. | :59:42. | |
we look long and hard at wh`t went so wrong when it came to | :59:43. | :59:45. | |
Concentrix's performance and when it came to this whole matter. But only | :59:46. | :59:50. | |
to be all that old people who were caused worry or distress as a result | :59:51. | :59:54. | |
of these failures, but it's also vital that we learn from wh`t | :59:55. | :59:59. | |
happened and prevent any further issues arising in any futurd | :00:00. | :00:02. | |
projects that is by its mercy will be looking at how the contr`ct was | :00:03. | :00:07. | |
managed. They have lessons to learn from this, the accept and h`ve given | :00:08. | :00:10. | |
evidence already was less committee and will give evidence to at least | :00:11. | :00:15. | |
one of. Learning lessons in undertaking analysis of the claims | :00:16. | :00:19. | |
and I know honourable members will be keen to see an unbiased, | :00:20. | :00:23. | |
independent assessment so as has been alluded to already, I will | :00:24. | :00:28. | |
remind the House at the inddpendent National Audit Office which | :00:29. | :00:30. | |
scrutinises public spending has announced that they will be | :00:31. | :00:37. | |
conducting our report into the Concentrix contract and of course | :00:38. | :00:40. | |
its mercy will be working vdry closely with the National Atdit | :00:41. | :00:44. | |
Office and cooperating closdly with them to support that inquirx. These | :00:45. | :00:51. | |
investigations will undoubtddly be a consideration of the knock-on | :00:52. | :00:54. | |
effects that have been calls to other services provided by HMRC As | :00:55. | :01:00. | |
I have outlined, its mercy have had to put out additional staff to cover | :01:01. | :01:04. | |
these problems but I want to ensure the House that its mercy is managing | :01:05. | :01:08. | |
this increased workloads effectively and again, it is a testimonx of the | :01:09. | :01:13. | |
efforts to its staff. It is a reflection of the flexibility HMRC | :01:14. | :01:16. | |
possesses. It is a large organisation capable of quickly | :01:17. | :01:19. | |
moving stuff around and dealing with peaks of demands that they `re | :01:20. | :01:23. | |
accustomed to date Gray handling of various types of the year. The meter | :01:24. | :01:26. | |
and lastly to mitigating suffering which we have touched on several | :01:27. | :01:31. | |
times throughout the debate. Our first course of action is to make | :01:32. | :01:35. | |
sure that we got people's claims for tax credits back on track. HMRC are | :01:36. | :01:40. | |
working hard to get the information needed from claimants to put anyone | :01:41. | :01:45. | |
entitled to tax credits back into payment, including paying any of the | :01:46. | :01:49. | |
years that they are entitled to In parallel, HMRC are taking forward a | :01:50. | :01:53. | |
new request for reviews of Concentrix decisions and indeed many | :01:54. | :01:57. | |
decisions have been overturned. Largely not due to errors, ht is | :01:58. | :02:00. | |
fair to say. I have enquired into this. It is largely not due to | :02:01. | :02:04. | |
errors but it is following the additional information that people | :02:05. | :02:07. | |
have provided through the process of the mandatory review and so many of | :02:08. | :02:10. | |
these problems are caused bdcause people did not or were not `ble to | :02:11. | :02:14. | |
respond to the first timetable they were given. They have now provided | :02:15. | :02:18. | |
that information and therefore the mandatory reconsideration, `s the | :02:19. | :02:25. | |
honourable lady asked earlidr, they have provided that we have been able | :02:26. | :02:29. | |
to then be assessed that cl`im. We have also made it a prioritx to | :02:30. | :02:33. | |
address urgent cases of hardship through the usual mechanisms, but I | :02:34. | :02:35. | |
will look at the point that the right honourable gentleman lade | :02:36. | :02:38. | |
earlier, the chairman of thd select committee. If anyone has bedn caused | :02:39. | :02:42. | |
undue distress or financial loss following errors or wrongdohng from | :02:43. | :02:47. | |
Concentrix, they contact HMRC. Such complaints will be taken very | :02:48. | :02:50. | |
seriously with a thorough examination of all the eviddnce | :02:51. | :02:54. | |
Where mistakes have been made, HMRC will not only makes claimants are | :02:55. | :02:58. | |
now being paid correctly, btt pays where appropriate. I think H would | :02:59. | :03:04. | |
also say, and I think it wotld be held and colleagues to note, that | :03:05. | :03:07. | |
out of this I have also askdd to be told on an ongoing basis thd issues | :03:08. | :03:10. | |
that members of this House `re bringing up with HMRC because I | :03:11. | :03:15. | |
agreed, someone used the phrase early warning signal earlier, | :03:16. | :03:17. | |
members complaints and membdrs of all sides of the House have been | :03:18. | :03:21. | |
reticent in their constituents, they are a very good early warning signal | :03:22. | :03:27. | |
for when things may not be right. In conclusion, Madam Deputy Spdaker, it | :03:28. | :03:29. | |
is undoubtedly the case that there remained too much fraud and error in | :03:30. | :03:32. | |
the tax credit system. It is a copper plated system which ht is | :03:33. | :03:37. | |
very easy to the Mac for many honours people to get wrong. 1. 7 | :03:38. | :03:47. | |
billion amount of fraud in 09 Gray 2014-15. Therefore it would make | :03:48. | :03:51. | |
sense to spend extra money sensibly and sustainable and address this. We | :03:52. | :03:55. | |
not only want to make sure that those who are entitled to t`x | :03:56. | :03:59. | |
credits get them, but we all know that it is vital we prevent people | :04:00. | :04:03. | |
getting overpayments which will then need to be paid back. We have all | :04:04. | :04:08. | |
seen the enormous distress that this causes to vulnerable people when | :04:09. | :04:13. | |
through often, just through missing, not applying the right information, | :04:14. | :04:18. | |
getting muddled up with a form, people end up owing a lot of money | :04:19. | :04:21. | |
and causes a lot of stress. Progress has been made on this issue. Fraud | :04:22. | :04:26. | |
in the tax credit system is now close to its lowest level shnce the | :04:27. | :04:29. | |
introduction in 2003 and we are not going to take a step back in our | :04:30. | :04:33. | |
efforts to make sure that wd have a fair tax system where we to tackle | :04:34. | :04:38. | |
noncompliance in all its forms and of course, we announced an dxtra | :04:39. | :04:41. | |
?800 million of funding last year to do so. It has always got to be | :04:42. | :04:44. | |
balanced by the need to keep providing both for financial support | :04:45. | :04:49. | |
and quality customer servicd that people in this country, whatever | :04:50. | :04:53. | |
their income level, are enthtled to and on this occasion, the b`lance | :04:54. | :04:56. | |
was not appropriate. It is for that reason that we are taking the action | :04:57. | :05:00. | |
I have outlined to put this situation right. We want to support | :05:01. | :05:04. | |
people struggling with their claims, we want to reinstate payments to | :05:05. | :05:07. | |
those who are entitled to them. I'm sure many of the comments that have | :05:08. | :05:11. | |
been made so far in the deb`te follows are going to be fair. I | :05:12. | :05:14. | |
would not agree with all thd points being made, but there has bden fair | :05:15. | :05:18. | |
comment and for that reason, we will not support this notion tod`y. We | :05:19. | :05:22. | |
was above all to get a fair outcome for everyone affected and wd want to | :05:23. | :05:26. | |
learn important lessons to lake sure that we can ensure this sort of | :05:27. | :05:30. | |
thing does not happen again and that we, as I say, learn lessons from the | :05:31. | :05:35. | |
situation and most of all that we make sure these important ptblic | :05:36. | :05:38. | |
services are working for thd most vulnerable in our communitids. | :05:39. | :05:44. | |
Before I call the next honotrable lady, it will be obvious to the | :05:45. | :05:49. | |
House that there are a great many people who want to speak thhs | :05:50. | :05:56. | |
afternoon, so we will start with a voluntary time limit of eight | :05:57. | :06:05. | |
minutes. And if that dash for back speeches. If that does not work I | :06:06. | :06:10. | |
will impose a time limit of eight minutes. This time limit, voluntary | :06:11. | :06:14. | |
or otherwise, does not in course applied to the for the Scottish | :06:15. | :06:21. | |
National party, Murray Black. I want to rise to say that the SNP will be | :06:22. | :06:29. | |
fully supporting Labour's motion today. I want to thank the lember | :06:30. | :06:33. | |
for Salford and Eccles for laking the case so eloquently. I think it | :06:34. | :06:37. | |
is worthwhile to remember or reiterate a couple of key points. | :06:38. | :06:44. | |
HMRC gave this contract to Concentrix with the additional | :06:45. | :06:49. | |
capacity to review the tax credit potentially based on incorrdct | :06:50. | :06:53. | |
information. One of the main tasks of Concentrix was to find pdople | :06:54. | :06:58. | |
with undisclosed partners, `t all to see a people were claiming the | :06:59. | :07:01. | |
benefit as a signal person but were actually living with others. This is | :07:02. | :07:04. | |
where the problem is where the problems really begin. Concdntrix | :07:05. | :07:09. | |
spent a considerable amount of money putting out fishing style ldtters to | :07:10. | :07:13. | |
try and catch people out cl`iming fraudulently. A written answer on | :07:14. | :07:19. | |
the 7th of September, the Treasury minister said that Concentrhx sent | :07:20. | :07:26. | |
out 381,000 letters to tax credit claimants requesting proof of single | :07:27. | :07:31. | |
staters, more of the details for a partner's work, 3000 and asking for | :07:32. | :07:36. | |
evidence of childcare use. Concentrix logic was that unless he | :07:37. | :07:40. | |
replied with the appropriatd evidence, there are tax credits | :07:41. | :07:43. | |
would be stopped. However, despite all these letters, apparently being | :07:44. | :07:47. | |
sent out, thousands of people had absolutely no idea that thex were | :07:48. | :07:51. | |
being investigated. Quite often they did not know that they were | :07:52. | :07:54. | |
under investigation or that their tax credits had been stopped | :07:55. | :08:00. | |
until... Thank you for giving way. Would you agree with me that given | :08:01. | :08:05. | |
the clamp-down on supported fraudulent claims with thesd fishing | :08:06. | :08:11. | |
letters, wouldn't it be good to CBC rigour applied to aggressivd | :08:12. | :08:16. | |
corporate tax avoidance? Entirely. That's something I will touch on | :08:17. | :08:23. | |
later! Once... Or you go. Gtzman was she also accept however that | :08:24. | :08:29. | |
Concentrix, although they h`d so many cases referred to them, they | :08:30. | :08:34. | |
whittled them down to less than one fifth of the cases that werd sent by | :08:35. | :08:39. | |
HMRC, so had it been in HMRC's control, a lot more people lay have | :08:40. | :08:42. | |
been affected than were acttally affected. I think one of thd other | :08:43. | :08:48. | |
interesting points is that when we looked into that, with the work and | :08:49. | :08:52. | |
pensions committee, we discovered that Concentrix actually have | :08:53. | :08:55. | |
subcontractors, I believe three of them, but they were not allowed to | :08:56. | :08:58. | |
go into detail about who or what their methods work or anythhng, so I | :08:59. | :09:01. | |
think that is something the Government should hopefully answer. | :09:02. | :09:06. | |
I'm going to make a bit of progress. Once we started to dig into this | :09:07. | :09:09. | |
issue, because all of my constituents I dealt with, like many | :09:10. | :09:14. | |
other members here, did not discover that their tax credits had stopped | :09:15. | :09:17. | |
until they went to collect them from the bank and discovered that there | :09:18. | :09:20. | |
was nothing. What we started to look into this, it is truly the lost | :09:21. | :09:25. | |
ridiculous level of incompetence that I have ever heard. People were | :09:26. | :09:30. | |
accused of being in relationships with ex-tenants 60 years thdir | :09:31. | :09:33. | |
senior. They were accused of being in relationships with some of their | :09:34. | :09:37. | |
own children. In my constittency, Scottish flat numbers seem to be a | :09:38. | :09:42. | |
major cause of issue four Concentrix because they can get their head | :09:43. | :09:45. | |
around the fact that flat one slash one and one slashed to work across | :09:46. | :09:49. | |
the hall from each other and not the same house. The best one has to be | :09:50. | :09:55. | |
the case of R S McCall. To give you some perspective, R S McCall is a | :09:56. | :10:00. | |
corner shop in Scotland's that is as common as a WH Smith in England And | :10:01. | :10:03. | |
yet people were being accusdd of living with this Mr McCall because | :10:04. | :10:10. | |
their flat was above and RS McColl shop. At no point did anyond in | :10:11. | :10:16. | |
Concentrix or HMRC think, w`it a minute, this Casanova is getting | :10:17. | :10:21. | |
around a bit! At no point. This would almost be very funny... This | :10:22. | :10:27. | |
would be funny until you relember that this is people's lives. This is | :10:28. | :10:31. | |
their survival that we are talking about. I was part of the session | :10:32. | :10:38. | |
where we heard from claimants who had their tax credits stoppdd and | :10:39. | :10:41. | |
this is where we have to relember the human cost of this. Firstly we | :10:42. | :10:45. | |
heard from a woman called M`rie who was a mother of two. She had six | :10:46. | :10:50. | |
weeks with no support, did not discover that her benefit h`d | :10:51. | :10:53. | |
stopped until she went to the bank. She said that she genuinely could | :10:54. | :10:58. | |
not fill the cupboards with food and she spoke of the shame of h`ving to | :10:59. | :11:01. | |
take her children to a food bank to be able to rely on the charhty of | :11:02. | :11:06. | |
others to be able to eat. This was followed on by a woman calldd Sarah | :11:07. | :11:10. | |
who had no hand. She sufferdd chronic pain every day of hdr life. | :11:11. | :11:15. | |
She had two young children, both under the age of five I belheve and | :11:16. | :11:23. | |
she spent a combined total of 1 hours on the phone waiting for | :11:24. | :11:25. | |
someone from Concentrix to `nswer. When she finally got through, the | :11:26. | :11:29. | |
present at the end of the phone kept saying, I don't know, you mtst form | :11:30. | :11:32. | |
back and get someone else. She was asked to write a letter and she | :11:33. | :11:36. | |
explained that she could not write due to her disability, only to be | :11:37. | :11:39. | |
told, sorry, you'll have to find someone else to write it for you. At | :11:40. | :11:43. | |
this point, this woman brokd down in tears in front of the committee She | :11:44. | :11:47. | |
genuinely was so overwhelmed with emotion when she spoke of the fact | :11:48. | :11:53. | |
that she had to look at her children knowing that she did not know where | :11:54. | :11:56. | |
the next meal was coming from. Thank you for giving way. Dishes share my | :11:57. | :11:59. | |
frustration that my constittent who was down to her last ?5 and was told | :12:00. | :12:04. | |
to send documents to Concentrix by recorded delivery and had to make | :12:05. | :12:07. | |
the decision about whether she fed her child or indeed says those | :12:08. | :12:10. | |
documents? I'm sure she will agree with me that this is absolutely | :12:11. | :12:15. | |
horrific. It is absolutely completely disgusting for this to be | :12:16. | :12:17. | |
happening under the watch of Government. I think it is worth | :12:18. | :12:22. | |
remembering that when we talk about these individual horrendous cases, | :12:23. | :12:26. | |
these are not unfortunate examples or a rare examples. This is | :12:27. | :12:31. | |
happening throughout the UK. I have to say, whoever made the music that | :12:32. | :12:36. | |
gets plays when you are put on hold at Concentrix must be making a | :12:37. | :12:39. | |
fortune because my whole office can whistle it off the top of their | :12:40. | :12:42. | |
heads because we were kept on hold so long and that is when we were on | :12:43. | :12:46. | |
the MPs hotline. The fact you have people who don't have access to our | :12:47. | :12:50. | |
hotline having to sit on thd phone for up to 90 minutes sometiles is | :12:51. | :12:55. | |
absolutely horrendous. I will give way. I want there it went other | :12:56. | :13:01. | |
colleagues had the experience that my staff had which is that | :13:02. | :13:06. | |
Concentrix flatly refuse to deal with them and said that it would | :13:07. | :13:11. | |
have to be the MP they would speak to? We were only there one day a | :13:12. | :13:14. | |
week and that maybe the timd when it is not easy to take the history the | :13:15. | :13:20. | |
constituent. It's also worth remembering that this number people | :13:21. | :13:24. | |
were being asked to phone w`s in all 845 number, so it cost an absolute | :13:25. | :13:28. | |
fortune and I think anyone hn this refined it cost a fortune so imagine | :13:29. | :13:32. | |
just how much of a pressure that would put on somebody who not only | :13:33. | :13:35. | |
qualifies for tax credits already but has now been told that they are | :13:36. | :13:39. | |
not getting it. I am going to make a bit of progress. Finally, when we | :13:40. | :13:46. | |
got through to people, we wdre told they had to apply for a mandatory | :13:47. | :13:51. | |
reconsideration is, only to discover that the contact also deleg`ted | :13:52. | :13:55. | |
extensive decision-making power to Concentrix, including the processing | :13:56. | :13:59. | |
of mandatory be considerations. This private company has to investigate | :14:00. | :14:03. | |
itself to find out if it's lade the correct decision, bearing in mind | :14:04. | :14:06. | |
that this contract states that they should only be paid on the basis of | :14:07. | :14:13. | |
results. This entire contract has been a shambles and ludicrots from | :14:14. | :14:18. | |
the very start. As if all this wasn't bad enough, during that | :14:19. | :14:23. | |
evidence session at the comlittee, Concentrix admitted that 90,95% of | :14:24. | :14:28. | |
all mandatory reconsideration is were upheld. 95% were upheld. This | :14:29. | :14:33. | |
company was openly admitting that they only got it right 5% of the | :14:34. | :14:39. | |
time and this is with the pdople who have applied for an appeal. How many | :14:40. | :14:43. | |
people have had their benefhts stolen from them who haven't gone | :14:44. | :14:45. | |
I think it is worth the honourable for a mandatory reconsideration | :14:46. | :14:52. | |
I think it is worth the honourable lady, it is worth saying off in the | :14:53. | :15:01. | |
region and Manningtree reconsideration succeeded is that | :15:02. | :15:05. | |
the information is supplied to that timetable. It is not fair to say it | :15:06. | :15:09. | |
is always because it is wrong, it is sometimes because then the | :15:10. | :15:12. | |
information has been supplidd at that point and the claim can be | :15:13. | :15:17. | |
reinstated. But you have to be remembering that HMRC and the | :15:18. | :15:22. | |
government were supplying information to Concentrix, so a lot | :15:23. | :15:26. | |
of the fault was on the govdrnment. I was talking earlier about | :15:27. | :15:33. | |
government responsibility, but for the UK Government to take rdsponse | :15:34. | :15:37. | |
Muti, does she agree that the only way that can happen is not only | :15:38. | :15:40. | |
substantial and appropriate compensation, but for full `pologies | :15:41. | :15:48. | |
to be given to those constituents who were dealt with Romney by - | :15:49. | :15:54. | |
wrongly by this government `nd Concentrix? When Concentrix were | :15:55. | :16:04. | |
saying 95% of the filter upheld in the next Parliament, it was said it | :16:05. | :16:14. | |
was 73%. I'm going to make some progress. This is such a farce | :16:15. | :16:20. | |
between government and Concdntrix, they cannot even agree on how many | :16:21. | :16:25. | |
times they got it wrong. Thhs is a ridiculous situation to find | :16:26. | :16:28. | |
ourselves in. Meanwhile there are people having to go to food banks to | :16:29. | :16:35. | |
then come home to their child crying because they do not want Tesco 0p | :16:36. | :16:39. | |
polonaise for the third timd that week. I can appreciate that mistakes | :16:40. | :16:44. | |
can happen, in all walks of life, no matter what job you are in, mistakes | :16:45. | :16:50. | |
can happen. But the reality is when mistakes are made by governlent | :16:51. | :16:53. | |
people suffer, and quite often the most vulnerable people. Whilst we | :16:54. | :16:58. | |
support the Labour motion wholeheartedly, we have to highlight | :16:59. | :17:01. | |
that the government has to blame some of the blame for this. The | :17:02. | :17:05. | |
contract states that HMRC is required to monitor the exercise and | :17:06. | :17:09. | |
remains responsible for the actions carried out by the contractor. I do | :17:10. | :17:14. | |
not believe this government has done that adequately. The most d`mning | :17:15. | :17:19. | |
thing of this entire saga is that Concentrix were under the ilpression | :17:20. | :17:22. | |
that the contract was going to be renewed. It was only after the media | :17:23. | :17:26. | |
cottoned onto this and began writing about it, after their worth 670 | :17:27. | :17:34. | |
formal complaints put in by elected member to HMRC, that the he`t began | :17:35. | :17:37. | |
to be turned up and this began to be taken seriously. The vice president | :17:38. | :17:44. | |
of Concentrix said that he was only given 15 minutes notice before he | :17:45. | :17:48. | |
went on a flight that the contract was not being renewed, and he | :17:49. | :17:51. | |
pleaded with HMRC to be givdn an hour in order to inform staff. An | :17:52. | :17:58. | |
hour was the difference between this company thinking they had a contract | :17:59. | :18:02. | |
that was going to be renewed and it being taken away because of the | :18:03. | :18:07. | |
shambolic work. An hour 's difference. The level of | :18:08. | :18:10. | |
incompetence is truly incredible and we cannot ignore that and place all | :18:11. | :18:15. | |
the blame on Concentrix. Wh`t needs to be done now? In the first | :18:16. | :18:22. | |
instance, the honourable melber raised the fact of the ?100 being | :18:23. | :18:28. | |
given to people, but in all of my cases, my constituents have been | :18:29. | :18:32. | |
told that that ?100 will be taken back from benefits, and that | :18:33. | :18:36. | |
something has to be looked `t. If we are all being told that, it is | :18:37. | :18:41. | |
clearly an issue. To deal whth this particular rubble, the buck has to | :18:42. | :18:45. | |
stop with HMRC. We have to legislate so that this is never allowdd to | :18:46. | :18:50. | |
again. I think the government has to bring this kind of thing back | :18:51. | :18:57. | |
in-house. It has got to be back to be the day-to-day responsibhlity of | :18:58. | :19:01. | |
the government. We cannot s`y to a private company, we want yot to make | :19:02. | :19:05. | |
?1 billion of cuts but we are only going to pay you on results basis, | :19:06. | :19:08. | |
that is a recipe for disastdr and it is a kind of thing which happen | :19:09. | :19:13. | |
again. One of the main reason this happened in the first place is | :19:14. | :19:16. | |
because of a lack of resources and because farmers are | :19:17. | :25:40. | |
I think it all the member for his comments. I think we need to find | :25:41. | :25:49. | |
that what went wrong, looking at what is brought out in a few minutes | :25:50. | :25:52. | |
and then deal with the issuds rather than getting out whether a gesture | :25:53. | :25:56. | |
of apology should be made. That said, I am glad that the motion is | :25:57. | :26:01. | |
not being nit-picked. We will support it today and I think that | :26:02. | :26:07. | |
speaks in itself. Given the issues that have been raised to myself I | :26:08. | :26:11. | |
did welcome the action the Government took of making it very | :26:12. | :26:14. | |
clear that the contract would not be renewed. Sending no new casds, I | :26:15. | :26:19. | |
think it has been over a month since the last case was spent to | :26:20. | :26:22. | |
Concentrix and also the fact that HMRC is moving in to resolvd many of | :26:23. | :26:29. | |
these issues. I will make some progress for now. I think in terms | :26:30. | :26:35. | |
of HMRC moving in, is probably worth saying that this is an organisation | :26:36. | :26:39. | |
that has had its own issues in the past with customer service. In fact, | :26:40. | :26:43. | |
in the next quarter of an hour, my fellow members of the committee will | :26:44. | :26:48. | |
be examining HMRC's customer services stop while there h`ve been | :26:49. | :26:52. | |
recent improvements, many mdmbers sat in the chambers today whll have | :26:53. | :26:55. | |
had their own experiences of sitting on the hotline and waiting to get | :26:56. | :27:02. | |
through. Briefly, yes. Is it not surprising that when HMRC wdre | :27:03. | :27:07. | |
challenged as to how many c`ses they dealt with where there was drror and | :27:08. | :27:11. | |
how long it took them to respond to those errors, they could not give | :27:12. | :27:14. | |
the figures so we don't even have a comparison between HMRC's | :27:15. | :27:18. | |
performance and Concentrix's performance? What I would s`y is | :27:19. | :27:23. | |
added to this afternoon we have quite a detailed report produced by | :27:24. | :27:29. | |
the NHL on HMRC's annual report being discussed at the Publhc | :27:30. | :27:32. | |
Accounts Committee which gods into quite some depth around HMRC's | :27:33. | :27:36. | |
standards and customer servhce standards that covers many of the | :27:37. | :27:39. | |
points and can be read in comparison with what we have heard abott | :27:40. | :27:43. | |
Concentrix. It is also worth saying that given the comments that have | :27:44. | :27:47. | |
been made on it, the other thing being discussed this afternoon by | :27:48. | :27:49. | |
the Public Accounts Committde is the issue around the tax gap and | :27:50. | :27:54. | |
ensuring that HMRC is meeting the performance we expected to hn terms | :27:55. | :27:56. | |
of ensuring that the taxes we legislate for in this House are paid | :27:57. | :28:01. | |
by those who are required to pay them. Given the comments th`t we | :28:02. | :28:06. | |
have already had, though I do genuinely welcome the fact that the | :28:07. | :28:10. | |
National Audit Office will be taking an investigation into this, I think | :28:11. | :28:13. | |
elements of this debate are slightly premature in what we have hdard in | :28:14. | :28:16. | |
that the National Audit Offhce will be investigating this area `nd I | :28:17. | :28:21. | |
have to say, the only intervention I was going to make on the Sh`dow | :28:22. | :28:26. | |
minister was her about having an independent inquiry commisshoned by | :28:27. | :28:29. | |
the Government. I was struggling to think of how more independent the | :28:30. | :28:34. | |
inquiry could be the the National Audit Office who, let's be clear, is | :28:35. | :28:39. | |
not an arm of Government. It is not of this Parliament, it prodtces its | :28:40. | :28:42. | |
report independently, yes it will yeas with Treasury ministers and | :28:43. | :28:48. | |
officials around ensuring f`cts are agreed in terms of current hts | :28:49. | :28:51. | |
conclusions, but ultimately, the controller general and his team | :28:52. | :28:55. | |
answer to this has via the `ccounts committee added has to be s`id, it | :28:56. | :28:59. | |
has never held back in the past of making comments of no matter how | :29:00. | :29:02. | |
difficult or challenging for for Government departments, frol doing | :29:03. | :29:07. | |
so were required and obviously, if she makes to make an intervdntion in | :29:08. | :29:11. | |
towing is how another inquiry would be different to that is, th`t from | :29:12. | :29:14. | |
me, getting the National Audit Office to look at it delivering a | :29:15. | :29:17. | |
report that can be fully in,depth leas scrutinised in this Hotse from | :29:18. | :29:22. | |
a team of subject expert to understand how HMRC works, | :29:23. | :29:25. | |
understand how the DWP and benefit system works and who actually owe a | :29:26. | :29:29. | |
duty to Parliament, not the Government is, I think is actually | :29:30. | :29:33. | |
the right way forward and actually be depth of information will inform | :29:34. | :29:36. | |
future debate on the subject. I will briefly give way. | :29:37. | :29:41. | |
If it's not clear is that they approach towards HMRC which has been | :29:42. | :29:47. | |
over a number of years to rdduce the number of stop us to stop and stop | :29:48. | :29:53. | |
today. But the current cop government programme to redtce it | :29:54. | :29:56. | |
from 55 to 35,000 is short-sighted and clearly from the evidence it is | :29:57. | :30:03. | |
time to reverse the procedure. I perhaps encourage the honourable | :30:04. | :30:06. | |
gentleman to read the HMRC report that is being discussed the suckling | :30:07. | :30:09. | |
baby Public Accounts Committee, it might well be worth even if he gets | :30:10. | :30:14. | |
the chance to attend the session and it is worth noting that HMRC with | :30:15. | :30:19. | |
new leadership which I think has been needed in an organisathon for | :30:20. | :30:23. | |
some time it is starting to turn around the customer service, moving | :30:24. | :30:28. | |
stuff in to make sure more stuff dealing with post and actually some | :30:29. | :30:33. | |
evidence that the customer service is improving but is open to see but | :30:34. | :30:37. | |
I know some of those asserthons will be tested quite robust lead by a | :30:38. | :30:43. | |
number of members including his own colleague who is a member of the | :30:44. | :30:47. | |
Public Accounts Committee. H think it is vital that the investhgation | :30:48. | :30:52. | |
is full and that we look at what comes out. I welcome the news from | :30:53. | :30:55. | |
the minister that there is ` negotiation going on around the | :30:56. | :31:01. | |
contract earlier. For obviots reason we can't go into the detail of that | :31:02. | :31:05. | |
today but I hope they will be sharing in with the NIO the -- to | :31:06. | :31:13. | |
bring this whole sorry tales to an end. That's why I think in terms of | :31:14. | :31:20. | |
drawing before conclusions out of this, it is clear people have been | :31:21. | :31:23. | |
caused pain and suffering when it should not have been caused. People | :31:24. | :31:27. | |
have been subjected to allegations that were not going to be true, the | :31:28. | :31:32. | |
philandering shop, the person living down the road, someone who has been | :31:33. | :31:36. | |
dead for some years and the way the contractor went about in terms of | :31:37. | :31:41. | |
letters, they looked very shmilar to efficient government HMRC ldtters | :31:42. | :31:44. | |
were the contractor 's logo on it, some debate as to whether in future | :31:45. | :31:48. | |
we should really have symbol being used on a letter being sent by | :31:49. | :31:55. | |
contractors. A debate to be had there to ensure a donation. I just | :31:56. | :32:04. | |
want, many of the constituents who came to me did not appear to have | :32:05. | :32:10. | |
received a letter tile and H just wonder, a letter with some strange | :32:11. | :32:14. | |
logo on it might not registdr as what it is about and therefore might | :32:15. | :32:19. | |
get overlooked. I queued thd point. From a own constituency, it cuts | :32:20. | :32:26. | |
both ways, a logo that lookdd like it was from HMRC, they wonddred what | :32:27. | :32:29. | |
it was about, likewise would do better is like I think it w`s a | :32:30. | :32:35. | |
further in enquiry and the information that the NAO brhngs | :32:36. | :32:45. | |
they will go into the detail around the customer service. From previous | :32:46. | :32:47. | |
reports they have been extrdmely thorough when doing so. Bringing my | :32:48. | :32:53. | |
remarks to conclusion I would say aye welcome the overall tond of the | :32:54. | :33:01. | |
Minister's response to the lotion today. I welcome that the Government | :33:02. | :33:05. | |
to clear and decisive action to bring this contract to an end and is | :33:06. | :33:08. | |
continuing to do that and prevent more people having to experhence the | :33:09. | :33:12. | |
issues that many members have highlighted today. Ultimately I | :33:13. | :33:15. | |
would say aye hope that the monitoring will go on because of as | :33:16. | :33:18. | |
we have seen in passages were HMRC and in solution isn't necessarily a | :33:19. | :33:22. | |
magic bullet to domestic customers are service as we only have to look | :33:23. | :33:25. | |
through the history of the better HMRC's performance to see that. I | :33:26. | :33:28. | |
welcome some of the tone of the debate we have had the suckling but | :33:29. | :33:31. | |
I think it is absolutely cldar we need to resolve the outstanding | :33:32. | :33:43. | |
cases -- this afternoon. It is pleasure a to speed on this debate | :33:44. | :33:46. | |
and to follow the honourabld member for Torre. I wanted -- Torb`y. It | :33:47. | :33:54. | |
was very useful to have the detailed and constructive responses that she | :33:55. | :33:58. | |
offered the House in relation to the operation of the contract, but I | :33:59. | :34:02. | |
want to open remarks by drawing the attention to the policy isstes that | :34:03. | :34:06. | |
underlie the difficulty we have got. From many years we saw a security | :34:07. | :34:13. | |
system -- Social Security sxstem designed and operated in a way that | :34:14. | :34:18. | |
serve to target, judge and stigmatise particularly single | :34:19. | :34:20. | |
parents. I thought we had stopped doing that. And yet the operation of | :34:21. | :34:26. | |
this contract certainly as far as the experiences of my own | :34:27. | :34:30. | |
constituents are concerned hs that that group of claimants havd been | :34:31. | :34:34. | |
particularly affected by thd way in which this contract has been | :34:35. | :34:39. | |
designed and operated. And of course a single parents, not always but in | :34:40. | :34:44. | |
most cases, will be women. Women who take responsibility for raising | :34:45. | :34:49. | |
their children alone. I think there is a real question from minhsters to | :34:50. | :34:52. | |
answer about the policy deshgn that led to that group of women being so | :34:53. | :34:58. | |
damaged and targeted by the operation of the contract and I hope | :34:59. | :35:02. | |
that the minister when I rahsed the question with her earlier I don t | :35:03. | :35:07. | |
think she interested but I hope the NAO report can look at it and not | :35:08. | :35:12. | |
just how it operated but how it was designed and what behaviour is | :35:13. | :35:16. | |
incentivised. I agree with the honourable member for Torbax that | :35:17. | :35:21. | |
nobody condones fraud in thd benefits system. It undermines | :35:22. | :35:24. | |
confidence in the system and denies access to the system for those who | :35:25. | :35:30. | |
are entitled to benefit frol it What I am particularly saying, when | :35:31. | :35:33. | |
the system is being operated in a way that starts to make asstmptions | :35:34. | :35:37. | |
about intimate relationships and living arrangements, these `re of | :35:38. | :35:44. | |
necessity intrusive matters. It is incumbent on government and its | :35:45. | :35:48. | |
agents to handle them with great sensitivity and with great care But | :35:49. | :35:52. | |
it seems pretty clear from `ll we have heard about the operathon of | :35:53. | :35:55. | |
this contract that Concentrhx did not bother to do that. Instdad, | :35:56. | :36:00. | |
perhaps steered by ministers, perhaps because of the results | :36:01. | :36:08. | |
model, on which we were earning -- warning early on of the dangers | :36:09. | :36:13. | |
Concentrix team -- seems to have taken the flimsiest evidencd at face | :36:14. | :36:17. | |
value to determine that people in their view must be living whth | :36:18. | :36:21. | |
undisclosed partners and thdn in many cases without any further | :36:22. | :36:27. | |
meaningful enquiry their tax credits would be stopped. I will give way. | :36:28. | :36:34. | |
While members have rightly identified the incentivised nation | :36:35. | :36:38. | |
but there was, she accept that of the 1.5 million cases sent by HMRC | :36:39. | :36:45. | |
two consenting state only acted on a fifth of them, that when it came to | :36:46. | :36:54. | |
the mandatory review the reviewed positively 95% which would go | :36:55. | :36:58. | |
against the argument of incdntivised nation and Windows case went to | :36:59. | :37:04. | |
appeal, less than 0.005% cases were actually overturned which would | :37:05. | :37:08. | |
indicate that Concentrix were well aware that they had to obey certain | :37:09. | :37:14. | |
rules when it came to dealing with these cases. I actually think that | :37:15. | :37:21. | |
looking at a fifth of cases and assuming they make the fraudulent is | :37:22. | :37:26. | |
a kind proportion because I think they acknowledge that fraud in the | :37:27. | :37:30. | |
security system is very low so I am not sure I completely accept the | :37:31. | :37:33. | |
analysis there and I think the whole house has expressed concerns this | :37:34. | :37:40. | |
afternoon as has the NAO th`t the results model has to be deshgned | :37:41. | :37:48. | |
very carefully. The result was that constituents of mine and around the | :37:49. | :37:52. | |
House were put in an imposshble position of having to prove often a | :37:53. | :37:57. | |
negative, proving that they didn't deliver somebody, often somdone they | :37:58. | :38:02. | |
didn't know, someone that sometimes didn't even exist. Cases th`t I have | :38:03. | :38:07. | |
seen include a woman being `sked about an undisclosed partner who was | :38:08. | :38:10. | |
a previous tenant of the property who had moved out nine years ago. | :38:11. | :38:17. | |
Who was accused of living whth a previous tenant, a constitudnt who | :38:18. | :38:24. | |
was told that her undisclosdd partner was in fact an individual | :38:25. | :38:28. | |
who was her landlord and perhaps the most bizarre case of all, a | :38:29. | :38:31. | |
constituent who appeared to be told that her undisclosed partner was in | :38:32. | :38:36. | |
fact her mother. With whom she lived. Requests for evidencd from | :38:37. | :38:40. | |
Concentrix that were then provided might buy my constituents wdre too | :38:41. | :38:44. | |
often ignored when submitted or sometimes in Semtex given the wrong | :38:45. | :38:49. | |
address for evidence to be sent back to. -- Concentrix. The lettdrs | :38:50. | :38:54. | |
didn't necessarily look verx convincing to my constituents. One | :38:55. | :38:59. | |
drew attention to the fact that many of the words were misspelt, that | :39:00. | :39:04. | |
they were full of errors and she told me that overall conclusion when | :39:05. | :39:07. | |
Concentrix got in touch with was that she was the victim of some sort | :39:08. | :39:13. | |
of scam. Sometimes evidence couldn't be produced. In two cases that I | :39:14. | :39:17. | |
have dealt with constituents were asked to submit utility bills but | :39:18. | :39:20. | |
they were living with their parents and utility bills would not being | :39:21. | :39:28. | |
issued in their name. We also heard this afternoon that when | :39:29. | :39:31. | |
constituents did try to deal with Concentrix and explain their | :39:32. | :39:36. | |
circumstances on the telephone they met with repeated instances of poor | :39:37. | :39:39. | |
customer service and were unable to get through to explain the | :39:40. | :39:44. | |
circumstances that they facdd. Even when there was clear evidence of | :39:45. | :39:51. | |
Concentrix being in error, H consider it troubling that ly | :39:52. | :39:54. | |
constituents were told they would have to go through a formal process | :39:55. | :39:59. | |
of mandatory reconsideration, and extra barrier when in fact | :40:00. | :40:02. | |
Concentrix should have immediately said they have made a mistake and we | :40:03. | :40:08. | |
will get the situation put right. I am also troubled, and we he`rd from | :40:09. | :40:12. | |
the Minister, that the commhtment to get tax credits into payment was for | :40:13. | :40:19. | |
a period within four days after an investigation had been concluded. Of | :40:20. | :40:22. | |
course I understand time nedds to be taken to look at the circumstances | :40:23. | :40:26. | |
of a claim but we do need some sort of time-limit overall on how long | :40:27. | :40:30. | |
that investigation is going to take. We can't leave constituents for | :40:31. | :40:34. | |
weeks and weeks that matter being result. The consequences for my | :40:35. | :40:40. | |
constituents and four honourable members constituents around the | :40:41. | :40:43. | |
House had been extremely hard. Housing benefit stopped, in one case | :40:44. | :40:47. | |
I had to intervene to prevent the constituent from being thre`tened | :40:48. | :40:52. | |
with eviction. Debt mounting. Women forced as we have heard for the | :40:53. | :40:57. | |
first time to go to food banks, one mother who in my constituency was | :40:58. | :41:01. | |
unable to pay her nursery fdes and was told to remove her child. | :41:02. | :41:04. | |
Another case where children had to be sent away to live with rdlatives | :41:05. | :41:08. | |
because the mother was no longer able to feed them or keep the home. | :41:09. | :41:12. | |
I think the second policy point to which you draw the Minister's | :41:13. | :41:16. | |
attention is how years especially dicing this contract terms of the | :41:17. | :41:22. | |
impact on children. The Govdrnment has to face up to fact that both | :41:23. | :41:27. | |
policy and the execution must be underpinned with an obligathon to | :41:28. | :41:32. | |
prioritise the well-being of children and in this contract that | :41:33. | :41:36. | |
clearly was not the case. It is really iniquitous that the prompt of | :41:37. | :41:41. | |
this chaos should be borne by women and children, something that an | :41:42. | :41:44. | |
equality impact assessment of the policy and its execution ought to | :41:45. | :41:48. | |
have addressed, it wasn't mdntioned by the ministers afternoon, it | :41:49. | :41:51. | |
wasn't mentioned by the economic Secretary to the Treasury in the | :41:52. | :41:54. | |
debate that we had in Westmhnster Hall last week, I really hope in | :41:55. | :41:58. | |
summing up the debate this `fternoon the Minister will tell us what | :41:59. | :42:01. | |
equality impact assessment was carried out and what adjustlents | :42:02. | :42:05. | |
were made to the policy as ` result because in the end, this has been a | :42:06. | :42:11. | |
disgraceful catalogue of errors and mistreatment. I am pleased the | :42:12. | :42:14. | |
contract is being terminated and I am very pleased that the NAO is to | :42:15. | :42:19. | |
carry out a full review of what went wrong. They want to echo thd | :42:20. | :42:21. | |
questions asked by colleaguds around the House, compensation is going to | :42:22. | :42:26. | |
be paid to constituents who have borne the brunt of this erroneous | :42:27. | :42:29. | |
management of the contract, what penalties are going to be ilposed on | :42:30. | :42:33. | |
Concentrix, but has been thd overall cost to the taxpayer of | :42:34. | :42:37. | |
mismanagement of the contract in this way including the cost of the | :42:38. | :42:40. | |
spec that we have seen in appeals? I echo the concerned that it lay be | :42:41. | :42:47. | |
philosophically at best inappropriate for intrusive | :42:48. | :42:50. | |
enquiries into people's personal circumstances to be carried out for | :42:51. | :42:55. | |
commercial gain and rewarded by results, I ask the Minister review | :42:56. | :42:57. | |
whether it is appropriate that somewhere through the formal process | :42:58. | :43:03. | |
when in fact a simple error has been made by the contracting company and | :43:04. | :43:08. | |
whether it is simply dealing with an error there and then would be a more | :43:09. | :43:13. | |
effective and fair way to proceed. Finally I am very grateful to the | :43:14. | :43:18. | |
Minister for saying that her fundamental thrust is to look | :43:19. | :43:23. | |
overall at what lessons can be learned. Will she undertake to | :43:24. | :43:26. | |
return to the House to report on those and and how she intends to | :43:27. | :43:34. | |
employ the learning that is gained? Thank you for calling me to speak. | :43:35. | :43:40. | |
Today's debate is primarily about the delivery and customer sdrvice of | :43:41. | :43:44. | |
the HMRC contractor Concentrix and the impact of their work and those | :43:45. | :43:50. | |
on tax credits wrongly suspdcted of fraud or error. | :43:51. | :44:06. | |
It is also about more than that It is about the relative value, | :44:07. | :44:15. | |
efficiency and service of third-party contracts against direct | :44:16. | :44:20. | |
delivery by government or government agencies. It is about how | :44:21. | :44:26. | |
government, in this case HMRC reacts to an unexpected crisis, ie when the | :44:27. | :44:32. | |
mandatory reconsideration appeals rose 95% in August while thd success | :44:33. | :44:38. | |
of handling calls dropped off a cliff, how quickly and what | :44:39. | :44:43. | |
contingency plans are in pl`ce, then it is about whether the strtcture of | :44:44. | :44:48. | |
incentives, the commission contractor, are appropriate for this | :44:49. | :44:53. | |
kind of public service delivery and while an internal investigation goes | :44:54. | :44:59. | |
on, today is going to be too early to offer definitive answers. At the | :45:00. | :45:03. | |
enquiry by our work and pensions Select Committee and the Minister's | :45:04. | :45:06. | |
measured comments today offdr some clues to which I have my own | :45:07. | :45:12. | |
experience dealing with constituents affected and observations from what | :45:13. | :45:16. | |
we learnt on the Select Comlittee. The first of these has to bd that | :45:17. | :45:21. | |
the essential task for this process, the goal which was to reducd HMRC | :45:22. | :45:28. | |
estimates of fraud and error, is a right goal for the government to | :45:29. | :45:34. | |
have. The estimates which are the most recent is a net 1.2 billion of | :45:35. | :45:40. | |
fraud and error on tax credhts involving potentially have ` million | :45:41. | :45:45. | |
people. We cannot spend billions of taxpayer money on welfare wdbsite | :45:46. | :45:50. | |
government rightly making stre that it is spent properly. In thd same | :45:51. | :45:55. | |
way that we expect our international development Department to m`ke sure | :45:56. | :45:59. | |
that the accounts are correct and money is spent in the right way We | :46:00. | :46:05. | |
also expect the European Unhon to account for its taxpayer money | :46:06. | :46:12. | |
correctly. The member is absolutely right that rich people and dvery | :46:13. | :46:17. | |
company should pay the right amount of tax and I would simply s`y that | :46:18. | :46:21. | |
this is not the case of either a war, it is a case of both. This | :46:22. | :46:27. | |
government is absolutely right to increase HMRC resources on | :46:28. | :46:31. | |
collecting the right amount of tax for those who have tax to p`y, and | :46:32. | :46:35. | |
making sure that welfare benefits are received by the right pdople in | :46:36. | :46:42. | |
the right amounts. The second point, sorry, lastly on that, it is worth | :46:43. | :46:49. | |
noting that the ?270 million recovered from this programle is of | :46:50. | :46:53. | |
course a decent contribution both to reducing that fraud and makhng sure | :46:54. | :46:57. | |
that that money is availabld to the people who need it most. Secondly, | :46:58. | :47:04. | |
there has of course been a cost during this process the hard-working | :47:05. | :47:10. | |
not well-off constituents. The dozen or so cases that I have replied to | :47:11. | :47:15. | |
come in every case there has been a degree of hardship and in some cases | :47:16. | :47:21. | |
considerable hardship, which is why the HMRC response and the speed is, | :47:22. | :47:29. | |
and was, so important. My sdnse from the enquiry was that HMRC chief | :47:30. | :47:35. | |
executive John Thompson is looking at how quickly HMRC responddd, but | :47:36. | :47:40. | |
it is true that the moment that HMRC did take a grip, beef up resources, | :47:41. | :47:45. | |
put extra staff into the hotline, that my office certainly were able | :47:46. | :47:53. | |
to resolve very fast the cases of people on tax credits that they | :47:54. | :47:57. | |
brought to us. I am not surd that all of them were resolved whthin 48 | :47:58. | :48:02. | |
hours, but all of them were resolved within three or four days and some | :48:03. | :48:06. | |
within a few hours. Indeed, our own Select Committee chairman actually | :48:07. | :48:13. | |
said that he cannot recall `n experience where, thank goodness, | :48:14. | :48:19. | |
the executive has acted so puickly when they have seen a crisis. I do | :48:20. | :48:23. | |
think that that should be on the record. It is credit to high HMRC | :48:24. | :48:30. | |
did respond to this and in the evidence we took from peopld | :48:31. | :48:35. | |
affected was one particularly gracious thank you to HMRC for | :48:36. | :48:39. | |
resolving one individual's crisis quickly. That brings us to ly third | :48:40. | :48:45. | |
point and it is the question of contracts to third parties `nd the | :48:46. | :48:50. | |
incentive system within that. I think the National Audit Office has | :48:51. | :48:53. | |
recognised that this is a vdry complex area, the case I thhnk the | :48:54. | :48:58. | |
jury is still out on how successful this has been over the last few | :48:59. | :49:05. | |
years, and the HMRC chief executive and took me when I raised this | :49:06. | :49:09. | |
question by making an interdsting remark. He said, no doubt, what is | :49:10. | :49:18. | |
the balance of incentives on third parties in these kind of contracts? | :49:19. | :49:22. | |
Because this is essentially based on commission earned. Is that the right | :49:23. | :49:27. | |
kind of incentive mechanism for this kind of public service delivery It | :49:28. | :49:33. | |
is a valid question. HMRC Chief Executive himself reflected on it. I | :49:34. | :49:37. | |
have no doubt that the investigation will also discuss whether bringing | :49:38. | :49:43. | |
in this kind of contract wotld ensure better quality control, more | :49:44. | :49:49. | |
experienced of handling tax credits and possibly at reduced cost. It | :49:50. | :49:53. | |
looked from the evidence th`t we took that broadly speaking content | :49:54. | :49:57. | |
Rex will have been paid but the time the contract is to an end about ?27 | :49:58. | :50:05. | |
million on 270 million of fraud or error identified, implying ` 10 | :50:06. | :50:09. | |
commission. That feels very high but these figures at this stage are | :50:10. | :50:13. | |
probably hypothetical and whll need to be confirmed in due course. In | :50:14. | :50:21. | |
all of this, the government, HMRC and concentric stone are absolutely | :50:22. | :50:25. | |
right to start with an apology to those who have suffered. It is | :50:26. | :50:30. | |
incredibly important that when mistakes are made to recognhse them | :50:31. | :50:35. | |
immediately. I think the wax that HMRC can start -- started whth the | :50:36. | :50:43. | |
executive committee with apologies is an important starting pohnt. | :50:44. | :50:49. | |
Clearly there is question about compensation for affected. @s the | :50:50. | :50:55. | |
amendment today puts it tow`rds the end, the government should dnsure | :50:56. | :50:59. | |
that those people on tax crddits are treated by HMRC in future whth | :51:00. | :51:09. | |
dignity and respect. I think that should go to everybody that the | :51:10. | :51:14. | |
government deals with. We all have a duty to treat our constituents with | :51:15. | :51:20. | |
dignity and respect. My own experience with HMRC, they have been | :51:21. | :51:28. | |
very helpful on every occashon. In conclusion, I think today's debate, | :51:29. | :51:33. | |
the way it has been held has been very measured, the tone across the | :51:34. | :51:36. | |
house has been reflective and thoughtful. Clearly there are | :51:37. | :51:41. | |
lessons to be learnt. It is absolutely correct that tax | :51:42. | :51:44. | |
collection is done and welf`re benefits are spent on the rhght way | :51:45. | :51:48. | |
on the right people, that there is a rapid response to mistakes, | :51:49. | :51:52. | |
contingency plans are held by agencies like HMRC and that bad | :51:53. | :51:58. | |
service is treated and amended as quickly as possible, therefore I | :51:59. | :52:03. | |
welcome this opportunity to discuss some preliminary thoughts on the | :52:04. | :52:06. | |
lessons that can be learnt `nd look forward in due course to seding what | :52:07. | :52:09. | |
the National Audit Office rdport produces. The previous speakers .. I | :52:10. | :52:26. | |
know I have to impose a timd limit, a formal time limits, of seven | :52:27. | :52:29. | |
minutes. Torrie Wilson. This government has made it clear | :52:30. | :52:46. | |
that the burden of posteritx must be borne most by those most | :52:47. | :52:51. | |
disadvantaged in our societx. They have made it clear by the rdpeated | :52:52. | :52:55. | |
assaults on the welfare state and the victimisation of the disabled in | :52:56. | :52:59. | |
the system of sanctions and the attacks on benefits for our young | :53:00. | :53:03. | |
people. They had made it cldar that tax credits cost too much under a | :53:04. | :53:06. | |
train on the public purse. They had made it clear in the handling of the | :53:07. | :53:12. | |
Concentrix contracts that the suffering and hardship causdd by | :53:13. | :53:14. | |
this is not their concern. The government did not seem too | :53:15. | :53:19. | |
concerned over targeting single parents, or working parents forced | :53:20. | :53:23. | |
to give up jobs, or families forced out on the streets. None of these | :53:24. | :53:30. | |
reasons were given as a contributing factor in the drawing of thd | :53:31. | :53:33. | |
Concentrix contracts. The statement given by the treachery exhibition -- | :53:34. | :53:39. | |
explicitly said that despitd the best effort of staff manning the | :53:40. | :53:44. | |
phones, with the high volumd of calls that has not been the high | :53:45. | :53:47. | |
level of customer service that the public expects. Therefore, HMRC has | :53:48. | :53:54. | |
given notice of the contract not being renewed. I am not surd... I'm | :53:55. | :54:03. | |
sure I am not alone in having a list of constituents being seriotsly out | :54:04. | :54:07. | |
of pocket waiting to speak to somebody at Concentrix. It hs this | :54:08. | :54:16. | |
government that came up at the model to indiscriminately target | :54:17. | :54:19. | |
low-income families. The contract awarded to Concentrix was b`sed on | :54:20. | :54:24. | |
payment for results creating a clear conflict-of-interest. It was this | :54:25. | :54:29. | |
government that supplied Concentrix with 1.5 million payment records | :54:30. | :54:35. | |
like that high risk. A constituent of mine, Lauren, is a mother of two | :54:36. | :54:39. | |
children. She has been faildd by the system. She found herself in the | :54:40. | :54:43. | |
centre of a perfect storm. She suffers from anxiety and panic | :54:44. | :54:47. | |
attacks and despite having ` line from her doctor lost her job for | :54:48. | :54:52. | |
being built. Her employer dhd not play statutory sick pay and she was | :54:53. | :54:55. | |
told she would have to wait for two weeks for employment support | :54:56. | :55:02. | |
allowance. Heard tax credits had been stopped. When she came in to my | :55:03. | :55:07. | |
office she had no food, no loney, and she had called Concentrhx that | :55:08. | :55:12. | |
day 48 times and she had run out of credit on her phone. Rather than the | :55:13. | :55:18. | |
state providing Lauren the safety net, Concentrix ( near desthtute. | :55:19. | :55:23. | |
Why? What was the key factor in determining that Lawrence w`s one of | :55:24. | :55:27. | |
the 1.5 million high risk p`yments? Someone had gone at your files and | :55:28. | :55:30. | |
decided she could not be working 16 hours a week and be paid so little. | :55:31. | :55:35. | |
They calculated her yearly hncome then divided it to come to the | :55:36. | :55:38. | |
conclusion that you must have been working 15 hours a week. Ignoring | :55:39. | :55:42. | |
the fact that Lauren had spdnt a month out of work the year before, a | :55:43. | :55:48. | |
change in circumstances that you originally notified HMRC, a cursory | :55:49. | :55:51. | |
glance was all it took to ttrn this young mother's life upside down and | :55:52. | :55:55. | |
at a time when tumours that are most vulnerable. My staff and I have been | :55:56. | :55:59. | |
deeply affected by the numbdr of cases in recent weeks where people | :56:00. | :56:03. | |
have been plunged into utter misery and we felt sheer frustration at not | :56:04. | :56:07. | |
being you to get a quick resolution. I doubt there is a single pdrson on | :56:08. | :56:13. | |
the government benches who has ever experienced going without food. We | :56:14. | :56:16. | |
can stand here all day and trade stories like Lauren's and Lde Camp | :56:17. | :56:22. | |
after sales on the back for acting swiftly and decisively on the | :56:23. | :56:26. | |
contract, but what cannot bd detracted from is the fact that | :56:27. | :56:29. | |
families have been driven ftrther into debt and poverty by thd actions | :56:30. | :56:33. | |
of Concentrix. Families havd been forced to beg for food by the | :56:34. | :56:38. | |
actions of HMRC and forced to choose between heating and eating `t the | :56:39. | :56:43. | |
policies of this government. It is time this government affects its | :56:44. | :56:46. | |
role in this be our school `nd take some responsibility for the carnage | :56:47. | :56:50. | |
it has caused. They must apologise for the hardship and sufferhng that | :56:51. | :56:53. | |
people like Lauren have facdd and must look again at the ongohng | :56:54. | :56:58. | |
policy of downsizing HMRC ldaving staph overworked and Tamara lies, | :56:59. | :57:02. | |
they must introduce a freephone number of claimants and takd on the | :57:03. | :57:06. | |
costs of seeking mandatory considerations. Earlier this month, | :57:07. | :57:16. | |
leading figures of the government stood up at the Conservativd Party | :57:17. | :57:20. | |
conference, in front of a b`ckground that said a country that works for | :57:21. | :57:24. | |
everyone. Let's see them match the policy to that sentiment and that | :57:25. | :57:32. | |
back from this destructive drive to impose austerity on the manx and | :57:33. | :57:35. | |
which is for the few. The bdnch opposite to take out of -- take a | :57:36. | :57:39. | |
leaf out of the Scottish Government cost MacBook and treat people with | :57:40. | :57:48. | |
fairness, and respect. I thought it was very important to be able to | :57:49. | :57:52. | |
speak on this debate on beh`lf of the many constituents that have | :57:53. | :58:01. | |
contacted me. I wanted to bdgin by commending the front bench, | :58:02. | :58:06. | |
particularly the spokesman for thick analysis of what the | :58:07. | :58:11. | |
government could have got rhght in enforcing this contract and the | :58:12. | :58:14. | |
problems that have led this did this place, and the member for Sheffield | :58:15. | :58:18. | |
who has done so much work and driving this debate forward. I | :58:19. | :58:22. | |
wanted to thank the staff in my office. We all have fantasthc | :58:23. | :58:27. | |
constituency staff who do so much to assist constituents and I w`nted to | :58:28. | :58:31. | |
thank my staff for the work they have done in dealing with | :58:32. | :58:34. | |
distressing cases and indivhduals who have been finding themsdlves in | :58:35. | :58:38. | |
deep hardship, deeply upset, often single mothers, and also groups like | :58:39. | :58:46. | |
the citizens advice bureaus and other advice charities locally who | :58:47. | :58:51. | |
have been faced with a deluge of these cases. I want to refldct on a | :58:52. | :58:56. | |
few of them. A single mother, long-standing claim suspenddd | :58:57. | :59:01. | |
because Concentrix said she was living with another named woman in | :59:02. | :59:07. | |
her property, and a third pdrson. They were actually previous people | :59:08. | :59:17. | |
who lived at home. Another one with a single mother and homeowndrs had | :59:18. | :59:21. | |
her claim suspended because Concentrix said she was livhng with | :59:22. | :59:25. | |
a couple. She is the sole owner of the property and provided evidence | :59:26. | :59:28. | |
and eventually became was reinstated. Single mother h`d her | :59:29. | :59:34. | |
award stopped pending an investigation. She was left with no | :59:35. | :59:37. | |
income and we had to refer her to food banks. Her son is diabdtic | :59:38. | :59:45. | |
required a specialist diet. All the stress and unhappiness causdd around | :59:46. | :59:48. | |
that. Eventually, the claim was reinstated. | :59:49. | :59:54. | |
Both of her tax credit clails. Sure she was told by Concentrix that have | :59:55. | :00:01. | |
bothered who had one sense opposed to the property was in fact her | :00:02. | :00:04. | |
partner. This case has not been resolved and she has no that money | :00:05. | :00:07. | |
since August and there have been four other cases worst mattdrs are | :00:08. | :00:12. | |
still not resolved. Constittents without money since August. A | :00:13. | :00:15. | |
question some of the issues about the time it has taken to results on | :00:16. | :00:20. | |
these matters. I have writtdn to the Minister by number decreases and we | :00:21. | :00:23. | |
are contacting them and I hope we will give assurances that she shall | :00:24. | :00:26. | |
pass tracks some of these c`ses which are distressing. I do give | :00:27. | :00:32. | |
that assurance and I want to assure members with particularly | :00:33. | :00:33. | |
long-running difficult cases they get in touch and they will lake sure | :00:34. | :00:38. | |
the HMRC prioritise them. I thank her for another model provides | :00:39. | :00:40. | |
reassurance and will certainly follow up with her office. There are | :00:41. | :00:45. | |
some common themes to all of these cases. One is the impact | :00:46. | :00:50. | |
particularly on single mothdrs, families actually with very complex | :00:51. | :00:54. | |
needs with children often whth health issues certainly being left | :00:55. | :00:59. | |
without food, money. Individuals who have mental health issues who have | :01:00. | :01:01. | |
found the additional stress and anxiety to support them, people | :01:02. | :01:06. | |
contacting me in desperation where any possible means of not rdalising | :01:07. | :01:12. | |
that the MP was the place to go on Twitter, Facebook, e-mail, phone, | :01:13. | :01:15. | |
absolute agony and desperathon at not getting through. In somd case | :01:16. | :01:20. | |
having the experience image and earlier of having even put down on | :01:21. | :01:23. | |
them which is obviously completely unacceptable and I am glad she | :01:24. | :01:26. | |
recognises that as such. But there is an issue with the final response | :01:27. | :01:30. | |
has been received, but thesd are not giving an explanation of whx the | :01:31. | :01:35. | |
claims were stopped or reinstated, leaving some constituents unsure | :01:36. | :01:37. | |
that will happen again and no apology. They appreciate wh`t the | :01:38. | :01:40. | |
Minister said today but we need to be apologising directly to the | :01:41. | :01:42. | |
individuals and families who have been affected. The long del`ys I | :01:43. | :01:45. | |
have mentioned, the frustration and distress caused by the inabhlity to | :01:46. | :01:50. | |
speak directly to people often contradictory and confusing | :01:51. | :01:52. | |
correspondence. We have for example is that already but this is added to | :01:53. | :01:57. | |
the pressure and concerned that these people have been experiencing. | :01:58. | :02:01. | |
The fact we have ended up h`ving to reverse a constituents to food | :02:02. | :02:05. | |
banks, that is a deeply distressing experience for anybody who has to go | :02:06. | :02:09. | |
through it. And Nice people through the blood of their own have found | :02:10. | :02:12. | |
themselves at the end of thdse erroneous investigations th`t is a | :02:13. | :02:14. | |
terrible situation is back through no fault of their own. -- these | :02:15. | :02:21. | |
people. This is simply becatse as the Minister indicated in an | :02:22. | :02:25. | |
answer... Concentrix were following the processes, guidance and | :02:26. | :02:30. | |
requirements of HMRC and thd worrying thing, if that doesn't | :02:31. | :02:32. | |
change, it doesn't matter whether you change the contract frol | :02:33. | :02:38. | |
Concentrix to HMRC, the samd thing will happen again. The honotrable | :02:39. | :02:41. | |
gentleman makes an important point and that is why we need to | :02:42. | :02:44. | |
investigation into what has gone wrong because this is not jtst the | :02:45. | :02:49. | |
situation regarding Concentrix. If we look at situation regardhng | :02:50. | :02:54. | |
capita, the contracts that have been at up to organisations like clear | :02:55. | :02:56. | |
springs were asylum accommodation, we look at the example of otr | :02:57. | :03:05. | |
source, this is the situations where they are not being properly | :03:06. | :03:08. | |
monitored and followed up and the people who suffer in the end some of | :03:09. | :03:14. | |
the most vulnerable, poorest and difficult situation constittents | :03:15. | :03:17. | |
that we all find. This is the common thread running through all these | :03:18. | :03:20. | |
things and the Government ndeds to have a wholesale look again at | :03:21. | :03:23. | |
whether it should even be contacting these sorts of services out but also | :03:24. | :03:28. | |
if it is, and is a legitimate reason for doing that, they have to be | :03:29. | :03:31. | |
monitoring and following up after going on. Down to the level of that | :03:32. | :03:34. | |
Israel is that individuals `re facing because that in the dnd is -- | :03:35. | :03:41. | |
level of experience. Often dxtremely complex lives and so many other | :03:42. | :03:46. | |
pressures. I will briefly ghve way. He mentions the issues that were had | :03:47. | :03:53. | |
and we have maximus, I have a case of someone waiting to be assessed | :03:54. | :03:57. | |
for work capability for almost six months, so do not perceive that we | :03:58. | :04:02. | |
will have a similar debate hn another half-year's time all over | :04:03. | :04:06. | |
again? I would not be surprhsed if we were going to be having ` debate | :04:07. | :04:10. | |
and by frustration and to protect the work we have done around the | :04:11. | :04:13. | |
clear springs case is that people look at this and companies laking a | :04:14. | :04:17. | |
huge profit, individuals making hundreds of thousands, millhons of | :04:18. | :04:23. | |
pounds some cases please contact the abiding the most shoddy and | :04:24. | :04:26. | |
inappropriate service, people suffer at the end of it and obviously they | :04:27. | :04:30. | |
get away with does not possdss top of the wrist and often with payments | :04:31. | :04:33. | |
at the end of it and in the end people look at this, partictlarly at | :04:34. | :04:38. | |
HMRC and say you're being chased down with these relatively small | :04:39. | :04:42. | |
amounts, completely erroneotsly he's fishing exhibitions and a meaty | :04:43. | :04:46. | |
sweetheart deals being done with major corporations over nonpayment | :04:47. | :04:52. | |
tax it is not tax credits, H have small business to continue with | :04:53. | :04:55. | |
cutbacks cases around VAT for example, they save one rule for | :04:56. | :04:59. | |
those at the top and another one of them often putting them into severe | :05:00. | :05:03. | |
hardship and deep publications when they try and resolve these cases | :05:04. | :05:06. | |
often when they arrive at otr borders as members of Parli`ment | :05:07. | :05:09. | |
already got themselves into severe financial difficulties with us as an | :05:10. | :05:12. | |
individual or business. In concluding, I want to be absolutely | :05:13. | :05:18. | |
assured that the Minister is not just going to see the full | :05:19. | :05:21. | |
investigation forward into this case and to resolve the issues that the | :05:22. | :05:24. | |
individuals in my constituency and others that have been mentioned | :05:25. | :05:28. | |
today, but that she will go back in government to raise this wider issue | :05:29. | :05:31. | |
of the contracting out of the services and the wider issud of | :05:32. | :05:33. | |
monitoring of these sorts of services because in the end it is | :05:34. | :05:37. | |
the people of this country that suffered and it is not acceptable. | :05:38. | :05:40. | |
It has been an absolute disgrace and it has to stop. Thank you. For | :05:41. | :05:50. | |
inviting me to speak in this very important debate. In common with | :05:51. | :05:54. | |
other honourable members I have been appalled by the complaints that my | :05:55. | :05:58. | |
office has received with regards to Concentrix. Runway constitudnts | :05:59. | :06:03. | |
basted extreme hardship following the action that has been taken. I | :06:04. | :06:08. | |
understand the provider want to conduct checks that money is being | :06:09. | :06:12. | |
bribed to the right people. However to stop money to parents, -, | :06:13. | :06:16. | |
provided. When checks are bding carried out, and the money hs being | :06:17. | :06:22. | |
stopped it is unacceptable. The reaction taken by Concentrix has | :06:23. | :06:26. | |
caused extreme hardship to lany of my constituents and people `cross | :06:27. | :06:32. | |
the country. People use this income invariably to provide food `nd | :06:33. | :06:35. | |
essential to the children and without this money for a period of | :06:36. | :06:40. | |
time is totally unacceptabld, and as absurd it has resulted in m`ny | :06:41. | :06:43. | |
families relying on food banks. This certainly been the case. In some | :06:44. | :06:49. | |
cases people have been going without. This is utterly sh`meful. | :06:50. | :06:54. | |
It is not as if Concentrix have been quick about some of their checks. In | :06:55. | :06:59. | |
the majority of cases it sedms as if people have had money withhdld for | :07:00. | :07:04. | |
two months or longer. How c`n people who are already in many casds on low | :07:05. | :07:08. | |
income the expected to cope for long periods of time? Of the manx cases | :07:09. | :07:14. | |
my office staff have dealt with one such case relates to one of my | :07:15. | :07:18. | |
constituents who had their tax credit stopped because it w`s | :07:19. | :07:21. | |
believed she had an undeclared partner in common with other stories | :07:22. | :07:26. | |
we have heard this afternoon. Following much stress by constituent | :07:27. | :07:29. | |
had to provide extensive evhdence that she did not in fact have an | :07:30. | :07:33. | |
undeclared partner. It transpired the basis of the action by | :07:34. | :07:37. | |
Concentrix was an out of date record of a previous tenant at that | :07:38. | :07:42. | |
address. Another similar case was wary constituent had her tax credits | :07:43. | :07:46. | |
stopped due to Concentrix rdquiring evidence that the tenant lived alone | :07:47. | :07:50. | |
as a random check on the eldctoral register had shown a previots | :07:51. | :07:53. | |
tenant. In that case it transpired that the previous tenant was now in | :07:54. | :07:58. | |
prison. And yet another casd where a constituents looked Concentrix to | :07:59. | :08:01. | |
confirm and provide evidencd that use a single parent and it still | :08:02. | :08:05. | |
took two months to investig`te and reinstate claim. There are ` good | :08:06. | :08:09. | |
many more cases that I could highlight but I accept that there | :08:10. | :08:12. | |
are many members wishing to contribute to today's debatd and | :08:13. | :08:15. | |
many of these cases are comlon in nature. The common factor in my | :08:16. | :08:23. | |
opinion is the lack of understanding or compassion on the part of the | :08:24. | :08:26. | |
contractor engaged by HMRC to undertake this role. We know that of | :08:27. | :08:31. | |
the many came in supper stopped and those who have appealed so far are | :08:32. | :08:35. | |
90-95% had been successful hn overturning that decision. But | :08:36. | :08:40. | |
Concentrix has to bear their share of the responsibility for the | :08:41. | :08:44. | |
hardship faced by many people in recent months, HMRC also had to bear | :08:45. | :08:49. | |
their share for allowing thd situation to get into the mdss that | :08:50. | :08:52. | |
we have seen. But I ask the minister today whether she excess results | :08:53. | :08:58. | |
will deepen the luck of scrttiny and what lessons HMRC are learnhng of | :08:59. | :09:05. | |
this tobacco. Concentrix's failure is -- tobacco. It is late f`ilures | :09:06. | :09:08. | |
of the Government because it certainly appears that in this whole | :09:09. | :09:12. | |
episode has been a deliberate attempt to that single parents. | :09:13. | :09:16. | |
Again, if HMRC were muttering the contract, this may well havd not | :09:17. | :09:24. | |
exhilarated that we have sedn. - accelerated the situation that we | :09:25. | :09:30. | |
have seen. Lessons must be learned. It has caused hardship and | :09:31. | :09:36. | |
Concentrix have been lacking in compassion and as the Chief | :09:37. | :09:38. | |
Secretary to the Treasury ottlined has been real suffering in lany of | :09:39. | :09:45. | |
cases. People in Merthyr Tydfil and across the country deserve `nswers | :09:46. | :09:48. | |
and they look forward to another is being given and I do thank the | :09:49. | :10:01. | |
Minister for supporting the motion. Thank you. Like other members I want | :10:02. | :10:05. | |
to pay tribute to the honourable member for Salford and Ecclds for | :10:06. | :10:10. | |
introducing this debate and setting out a number of points so cogently | :10:11. | :10:13. | |
particularly in relation to some details of the contract himself and | :10:14. | :10:17. | |
the responsibilities that the contract Dave to HMRC themsdlves. | :10:18. | :10:24. | |
That gave. To better deal whth these problems which HMRC and the previous | :10:25. | :10:31. | |
minister had to be aware of given the number of representations and | :10:32. | :10:35. | |
complaints after coming through and the range of questions are being | :10:36. | :10:39. | |
asked as well. None of which were properly absorbed and were treated | :10:40. | :10:44. | |
fairly decisively along the lines of young Mr Gross that they ard all | :10:45. | :10:47. | |
doing very well, there seem to be no problem whatsoever as far as the | :10:48. | :10:52. | |
previous list was concerned, I'm glad the Minister is indicating she | :10:53. | :10:56. | |
is going to take more of a personal interest in how these details are | :10:57. | :11:01. | |
handled in future. I think the motion could have actually been | :11:02. | :11:07. | |
wider. I think it could havd taken into its sites HMRC itself `nd their | :11:08. | :11:11. | |
role and Russia in this whole debacle and also the -- this has | :11:12. | :11:18. | |
happened in a context where we have had the progress of run down in the | :11:19. | :11:22. | |
capacity and character of HLRC but then leaves them the excuse of them | :11:23. | :11:27. | |
outsourcing bits of work but that is the character of that work `nd | :11:28. | :11:31. | |
outsourcing that really raises questions about the mentality in | :11:32. | :11:37. | |
HMRC. The Minister has confhrmed to me in a written answer yestdrday | :11:38. | :11:42. | |
that during the course of the contract HMRC delegated a total | :11:43. | :11:50. | |
caseload of 2,002,009 500 c`ses for high-risk renewal checks by | :11:51. | :11:54. | |
Concentrix so it was HMRC ddcided that over 2 million cases could be | :11:55. | :11:58. | |
appraised as being at high risk renewals. When it came to Concentrix | :11:59. | :12:10. | |
receiving bills, -- receiving bills. 1.3 million cases were not the | :12:11. | :12:12. | |
subject of further investig`tion for fraud or error by Concentrix so that | :12:13. | :12:18. | |
means Concentrix themselves screened at 74% of the caseload that had been | :12:19. | :12:23. | |
identified by HMRC. Just thhnk with what we would be dealing with death | :12:24. | :12:27. | |
hadn't been the screening ott. The multiple versions of the problems | :12:28. | :12:32. | |
both of the adversity enjoydd by our constituents and the absurdhty | :12:33. | :12:36. | |
entailed in the grooviest conjecture that has been used against people. | :12:37. | :12:39. | |
Of those total number of high-risk renewal claims referred to | :12:40. | :12:44. | |
Concentrix there were three main risk categories and these words | :12:45. | :12:50. | |
designed by HMRC, not by Concentrix, undeclared partner and that | :12:51. | :12:57. | |
accounted for 1,398,000, working hours and that accounted for five | :12:58. | :13:05. | |
and childcare which amounted to 245000 and 609 cases identified by | :13:06. | :13:09. | |
HMRC. I hope that ministers will address now that this work hs | :13:10. | :13:14. | |
returning to HMRC that therd is some change of culture in HMRC that no | :13:15. | :13:17. | |
longer brings a degree of hostility and suspicion to their customers. | :13:18. | :13:25. | |
Would he accept that the incentive that Concentrix had, that the only | :13:26. | :13:35. | |
got paid for the cases wherd it could be sure that there was genuine | :13:36. | :13:39. | |
error for fraud, that at th`t incentive does not rest with the | :13:40. | :13:44. | |
HMRC, then the situation cotld be worse now that HMRC are dealing with | :13:45. | :13:48. | |
cases because they don't have any incentive to screen out any of | :13:49. | :13:53. | |
these. He does raise a point that we need to ask about future | :13:54. | :13:57. | |
performance. Many of us havd had a room difficulties in dealing with | :13:58. | :14:03. | |
HMRC in dealing with tax crddits, and in my constituency cross-border | :14:04. | :14:09. | |
workers whose position is constantly mishandled by HMRC. On the puestion | :14:10. | :14:19. | |
raised about the payment by results issue, I do know that the p`yment by | :14:20. | :14:25. | |
results is the outcomes aftdr the mandatory reconsideration stage so | :14:26. | :14:29. | |
some of the arguments about the degree of incentivise Asian I think | :14:30. | :14:34. | |
need to be measured against that point. What drove the cut-off of tax | :14:35. | :14:42. | |
credits for most people was the application of the compliance | :14:43. | :14:46. | |
requirements around 30 days, so people receive these letters using | :14:47. | :14:51. | |
the HMRC system, using the HMRC contract of standards to Concentrix | :14:52. | :14:55. | |
and they received letters s`ying unless you return information within | :14:56. | :15:00. | |
30 days your benefit will bd stopped. That is most of those stops | :15:01. | :15:05. | |
or because information supposedly wasn't received after 30 daxs and | :15:06. | :15:09. | |
that is why so many cases wdre overturned because at that stage the | :15:10. | :15:12. | |
information had been providdd. That raises questions for this House | :15:13. | :15:19. | |
because Word does the 30 dax rule coming? The 30 day rule comds in | :15:20. | :15:24. | |
back in the 2002 tax credit act and what we have here by HMRC is a gross | :15:25. | :15:31. | |
misapplication of the terms of the 2002 tax credit act in terms of the | :15:32. | :15:36. | |
high risk renewal regime, in terms of the high risk change of | :15:37. | :15:41. | |
circumstances regime, and also in terms of annual declaration because | :15:42. | :15:43. | |
what the Minister didn't address today is that there were thousands | :15:44. | :15:48. | |
of people who had the tax credits stop by HMRC directly, nothhng to do | :15:49. | :15:53. | |
with Concentrix, because HMRC were terminating people because they have | :15:54. | :15:57. | |
not returned the annual declaration on time. Compliance grant are being | :15:58. | :16:02. | |
used by HMRC directly against people themselves. Windows 40 5,000 people | :16:03. | :16:07. | |
were cut off in the first wdek of August, people naturally assumed the | :16:08. | :16:12. | |
back-up. Was by Concentrix, they were ringing Concentrix, we were | :16:13. | :16:17. | |
running Concentrix, but it was HMRC the cut them off. You have that that | :16:18. | :16:25. | |
anomaly of the HMRC handing work to Concentrix, meanwhile HMRC | :16:26. | :16:28. | |
themselves decided to go ag`inst those same people on compli`nce | :16:29. | :16:33. | |
crowns. No wonder confusion and hardship and hurt was caused. There | :16:34. | :16:39. | |
are fundamental questions hdre for HMRC as well. I hope the Minister | :16:40. | :16:50. | |
will look again. We hope th`t those lessons will be learned within HMRC | :16:51. | :16:54. | |
itself and it will include looking at whether or not there has been | :16:55. | :16:59. | |
particular mischievous the number of sections of the 2002 act. That 002 | :17:00. | :17:09. | |
act, regulation 32, states that the period of notice given for ` person | :17:10. | :17:13. | |
to submit information or evhdence shall not be less than 30 d`ys after | :17:14. | :17:18. | |
the date of notice, so it doesn t have to be 30 days. That is the | :17:19. | :17:22. | |
minimum it could be. Who decided it was going to be 30 days? HMRC | :17:23. | :17:27. | |
decided it was going to be 30 days and they pass that on to Concentrix | :17:28. | :17:31. | |
and told Concentrix that th`t statute, that is how it works, that | :17:32. | :17:37. | |
is so you have to do it. Thdre are questions for ministers. Thd they | :17:38. | :17:44. | |
days? When ministers notifidd that those with the terms on which | :17:45. | :17:50. | |
Concentrix was operating? Whlled that 30 day cut be reviewed? Some of | :17:51. | :18:00. | |
these flaws are sourced in the legislation itself and the over | :18:01. | :18:03. | |
rigorous application of those by HMRC. It is important to recognise | :18:04. | :18:09. | |
many people have voiced of Concentrix and the performance. Let | :18:10. | :18:17. | |
us remember, in this debate we need to get through the HMRC where the | :18:18. | :18:22. | |
core of responsibility lies, there needs to be a culture changd there | :18:23. | :18:25. | |
and I welcome the fact that the Minister has given a commitlent to | :18:26. | :18:32. | |
keep an eye on this in the future. I have spoken a number of timds in | :18:33. | :18:36. | |
Parliament on this issue and every time I speak I am listening to the | :18:37. | :18:41. | |
many stories across this ch`mber and elsewhere about the individtal cases | :18:42. | :18:46. | |
and it is no different in mx home constituency of Dundee about how the | :18:47. | :18:50. | |
individuals have been affected by Concentrix, who are contracted by | :18:51. | :18:52. | |
HMRC on behalf of this Tory government. HMRC's contract with | :18:53. | :19:00. | |
Concentrix is driving familhes into image of poverty. Let me offer you a | :19:01. | :19:10. | |
couple of examples. One of ly constituents had only part of her | :19:11. | :19:13. | |
address held on the Concentrix system. And background checks were | :19:14. | :19:16. | |
run on the address there were a number of people named at the same | :19:17. | :19:21. | |
property. Duty and needless investigation by Concentrix, this | :19:22. | :19:24. | |
person struggled to feed and put her children for over a month. @nother | :19:25. | :19:29. | |
loan parents was judged to have made a false claim as a single p`rent. It | :19:30. | :19:35. | |
was discovered that an incorrect address instigated this | :19:36. | :19:38. | |
investigation and HMRC over this person a considerable amount of | :19:39. | :19:42. | |
money. This was not discovered before of the constituent h`d to | :19:43. | :19:46. | |
give up her home due to fin`ncial hardship. I wonder if he wotld agree | :19:47. | :19:57. | |
with me that another aspect of the shambles is that at times and the | :19:58. | :20:02. | |
complete breakdown between Concentrix and HMRC, as exelplified | :20:03. | :20:07. | |
by my constituent, mother of who supplied Concentrix with evdry | :20:08. | :20:11. | |
single piece of information they asked for only to find that | :20:12. | :20:13. | |
subsequently that they had not passed on to HMRC and her t`x credit | :20:14. | :20:19. | |
application was cancelled, leaving her in a position of having to see | :20:20. | :20:24. | |
crisis loans and go to the banks to get children fed for the rest of the | :20:25. | :20:28. | |
week. Would you agree with le that that situation is unacceptable and | :20:29. | :20:33. | |
those people are owed an apology by this government? I completely agree. | :20:34. | :20:39. | |
It further makes the point H was about to raise which is makd the | :20:40. | :20:44. | |
mistake that many of these people are single parents who are `lready | :20:45. | :20:47. | |
struggling to make ends meet and are the target of this government. | :20:48. | :20:55. | |
Evidence has emerged that a million letters have been sent out `sking | :20:56. | :20:59. | |
for information about the circumstances in what could only be | :21:00. | :21:03. | |
described as a fishing expedition to detect potentially a regular tax | :21:04. | :21:07. | |
returns. It is up to the constituent to prove that the incident before | :21:08. | :21:12. | |
tax credits reinstated. In other words, they are treated as guilty | :21:13. | :21:16. | |
until proven innocent. It does not end there. Staff at Concentrix are | :21:17. | :21:23. | |
regularly dealing with suichde callers who threatened to khll | :21:24. | :21:27. | |
themselves. How desperate is it have to get before urgent action is taken | :21:28. | :21:31. | |
and this contract is ended immediately? The social and health | :21:32. | :21:37. | |
impacts on members of the ptblic and employees of Concentrix are | :21:38. | :21:40. | |
horrific. These issues have been reinforced in a recent report on the | :21:41. | :21:44. | |
Select Committee which find evidence of humiliation of payments `nd | :21:45. | :21:48. | |
appalling customer service `nd success rates of appeal of somewhere | :21:49. | :21:55. | |
up to 95%, described as a tdrrible indictment of the original | :21:56. | :21:58. | |
decision-making process. Unsurprisingly, this is not the | :21:59. | :22:01. | |
first time government outsotrcing has failed to meet expectathons | :22:02. | :22:08. | |
These payment by results contracts got back to 2003 when Labour | :22:09. | :22:16. | |
installed it with English NHS. Aptos, whose shambolic and cruel | :22:17. | :22:19. | |
tests were designed to strip benefits from sick and disabled | :22:20. | :22:26. | |
people. Concentrix is played on a payment by results basis, in short, | :22:27. | :22:31. | |
commission. The more tax paxments concentric Concentrix puts ` stop | :22:32. | :22:43. | |
to, the more they get paid. The high different decisions made by this | :22:44. | :22:47. | |
government would be if the lember sitting opposite reported on | :22:48. | :22:52. | |
payments by results contracts. Would you believe it, this governlent is | :22:53. | :22:57. | |
continuing to cup HMRC jobs in Dundee and right across Scotland was | :22:58. | :23:02. | |
at the same time privatising and outsourcing contracts. HMRC | :23:03. | :23:05. | |
departments which are already under staff have been left to pick up the | :23:06. | :23:09. | |
pieces and spent months restoring backlogs of claims and mist`kes It | :23:10. | :23:13. | |
is going to end this madness now. Well Concentrix has questions to | :23:14. | :23:19. | |
answer, I believe that the disastrous implementation of the | :23:20. | :23:22. | |
contract by the Tory governlent has implications that go far bexond the | :23:23. | :23:26. | |
specific company. This government has created a system designdd to | :23:27. | :23:30. | |
place the burden of the failing posterity agenda firmly on the | :23:31. | :23:34. | |
shoulders of those most disadvantaged in our societx. The | :23:35. | :23:38. | |
contract with Concentrix has not been renewed which is a step in the | :23:39. | :23:42. | |
right direction and it looks like it will be brought to a shorter close, | :23:43. | :23:47. | |
high ever government needs to go further. Alongside the ongohng | :23:48. | :23:53. | |
investigation, and enquiry has been initiated by the National Atdit | :23:54. | :23:56. | |
Office. I welcome these developments, albeit at a thme when | :23:57. | :24:00. | |
too many of my constituents have already suffered. I urge thhs | :24:01. | :24:04. | |
government to set up a publhc enquiry to examine conditions under | :24:05. | :24:07. | |
which government departments give contracts to public sector ,- | :24:08. | :24:10. | |
private sector suppliers. How to devise contracts enstre value | :24:11. | :24:25. | |
for money and efficiency without allowing companies to profit by | :24:26. | :24:28. | |
minute relating results and ignore the well-being of people in our | :24:29. | :24:33. | |
society. A clear statement of ethical principles to emphasise | :24:34. | :24:38. | |
justice for individual citizens in Parliamentary accountabilitx and | :24:39. | :24:42. | |
representation of consumer `nd service user groups and | :24:43. | :24:46. | |
decision-making at all stagds of formulating, awarding and monitoring | :24:47. | :24:51. | |
contracts. In the end, everxone in this House must remember we are | :24:52. | :24:55. | |
privileged to be here and sdrve the public and I would urge this | :24:56. | :24:58. | |
government to go right back and re-examine all of its contr`cts with | :24:59. | :25:03. | |
private companies and ensurd that dignity and respect are at the heart | :25:04. | :25:07. | |
of procurement, rather than profit and price. I want to just sdt out | :25:08. | :25:18. | |
the experience of some of mx constituents in respect of | :25:19. | :25:22. | |
Concentrix and what has been happening with the tax credhts. It | :25:23. | :25:26. | |
is a familiar story having listened to colleagues from around the house | :25:27. | :25:32. | |
and around the UK. Normally, might constituents have been waithng | :25:33. | :25:35. | |
between five and seven weeks before they come along and see need to get | :25:36. | :25:39. | |
the problem sorted. We can then get it sorted, although I do sthll have | :25:40. | :25:45. | |
eight Concentrix cases which have not yet been resolved, so when the | :25:46. | :25:49. | |
Minister said that she was resolving them all very quickly that hs not | :25:50. | :25:54. | |
the case, many of these havd been four or five weeks since we took | :25:55. | :25:58. | |
them up and they have not ydt been resolved so there are outst`nding | :25:59. | :26:02. | |
cases. We saw a rapid incre`se in cases from August onwards. Before | :26:03. | :26:06. | |
that we had a drip, drip, drip of cases that would go wrong, but from | :26:07. | :26:12. | |
August something happened, dither at HMRC or at Concentrix. It would be | :26:13. | :26:19. | |
interesting to know what it was and who initiated it, because stddenly | :26:20. | :26:24. | |
there was an influx of cases all wrongly decided, all coming in in a | :26:25. | :26:29. | |
rush. This contract has been running since 2014, so what happened August? | :26:30. | :26:34. | |
We would like to press the Linister in answering to tell us what it was | :26:35. | :26:39. | |
that caused that sudden increase and spike in cases? All of my | :26:40. | :26:44. | |
constituents who have come to see me are single mums with childrdn, | :26:45. | :26:48. | |
mainly accused of having an undisclosed partner. Some of them | :26:49. | :26:52. | |
told they did not have childcare costs that they had claimed, | :26:53. | :26:55. | |
occasionally they had been told that they don't have children whdn they | :26:56. | :27:01. | |
do. Most have simply had monies stopped without receiving any prior | :27:02. | :27:05. | |
notification. They find out that there was an issue because there was | :27:06. | :27:10. | |
no money in the bank, then when they tried to get through on the | :27:11. | :27:13. | |
telephone they could not get through and then they received a letter that | :27:14. | :27:18. | |
said you have an undisclosed partner. It did not say who that | :27:19. | :27:23. | |
undisclosed partner was supposed to be. It did say, prove that xou don't | :27:24. | :27:27. | |
have an undisclosed partner, send this evidence to show that xou | :27:28. | :27:31. | |
don't. However, if you don't know who the undisclosed partner is | :27:32. | :27:35. | |
supposed to be high you supposed do that? Worse, when my constituents | :27:36. | :27:42. | |
have discovered who that undisclosed partner is meant to be, it hs a | :27:43. | :27:46. | |
previous tenant of the home who they have never met to left years ago, or | :27:47. | :27:51. | |
it is a family member who they would never even think there might be an | :27:52. | :27:54. | |
issue that they were supposdd to be an undisclosed partner becatse they | :27:55. | :28:00. | |
were related. What bad information is being used to make the lhves of | :28:01. | :28:04. | |
these people and Missouri? H have said it is bad once and I whll say | :28:05. | :28:10. | |
it again. At the 80% of the cases sent to Concentrix were tying down | :28:11. | :28:14. | |
-- were turned down by Concdntrix because it was decided therd wasn't | :28:15. | :28:18. | |
an issue, what kind of information were they looking out on thd 80 bid | :28:19. | :28:22. | |
turned down if this is the kind of information that they deciddd to act | :28:23. | :28:27. | |
upon? It beggars belief. In all of these cases my constituents were | :28:28. | :28:30. | |
told to prove that they did not have a partner but the name was given. In | :28:31. | :28:34. | |
all of the cases that have been resolved so far, the determhnation | :28:35. | :28:40. | |
has been was -- has been reversed. It seems to me that this is a | :28:41. | :28:44. | |
complete reversal of the nedds burden of proof. You prove that you | :28:45. | :28:48. | |
don't have an undisclosed p`rtner. This is what people are being told | :28:49. | :29:01. | |
and it is not fair on those people. They are already financiallx in | :29:02. | :29:07. | |
difficulty. That is why thex are able to get tax credits. Ustally | :29:08. | :29:12. | |
living at financial margins, part-time low paid work. I have | :29:13. | :29:16. | |
constituents who have had to give up their childcare have had to take | :29:17. | :29:20. | |
their children out of childcare and are in danger of losing thehr job | :29:21. | :29:24. | |
because they have been told they don't have children, they do have. | :29:25. | :29:28. | |
It seems to me the length of time it's taking to resolve thesd issues | :29:29. | :29:35. | |
been far too great. The worry and stress is particularly diffhcult | :29:36. | :29:38. | |
when dealing with an unreachable and harsh bureaucracy and that lakes | :29:39. | :29:44. | |
this experience for them particularly Kafkaesque. Thdre are | :29:45. | :29:47. | |
secondary impacts including getting into severe debt, rent arre`rs, | :29:48. | :29:53. | |
threats of eviction, the impact of which persists beyond putting these | :29:54. | :29:59. | |
claims right. For example b`nk charges, damaged credit histories, | :30:00. | :30:03. | |
massive mobile phone bills. It is all very well seeing these cases | :30:04. | :30:08. | |
have been put right but what about those ongoing impacts? But canny | :30:09. | :30:11. | |
minister said to us about what is going to be done to put those right? | :30:12. | :30:16. | |
I do think there cases wherd people ought to have compensation. It is | :30:17. | :30:21. | |
distressing enough having this done without having ongoing financial | :30:22. | :30:25. | |
problems resulting. What about the control of the data that HMRC is | :30:26. | :30:28. | |
passing on work is in futurd going to be looking at itself to do with | :30:29. | :30:34. | |
these cases? Why is it so poor? How can it be possible for prevhous | :30:35. | :30:40. | |
tenants for people who live any more to be suggested as undisclosed | :30:41. | :30:45. | |
partners? What kind of qualhty control is that on this dat`? | :30:46. | :30:49. | |
Obviously it is not working. I think it is wrong for the Governmdnt to | :30:50. | :30:54. | |
incentivise maladministration in its contracts that and is in effect what | :30:55. | :30:58. | |
has happened here. I think that my constituency have suffered these | :30:59. | :31:03. | |
cases have been subjected to maladministration. I will bd | :31:04. | :31:06. | |
suggesting to them that thex make a claim to the Parliamentary Ombudsman | :31:07. | :31:12. | |
of the public compensated. The Government could stop this happening | :31:13. | :31:17. | |
by compensating them ahead of making any such claims. The worst of it, | :31:18. | :31:22. | |
and they agree with right honourable friend the members are structured | :31:23. | :31:25. | |
nervous on about this, this has been specifically targeted at a | :31:26. | :31:32. | |
population largely of financially vulnerable single mums who `re | :31:33. | :31:34. | |
trying to do the right thing by going to work and who are | :31:35. | :31:39. | |
excessively impacted upon bx this kind of behaviour by bureaucracies | :31:40. | :31:48. | |
which they cannot even begin to get to. I think it is incumbent upon the | :31:49. | :31:52. | |
Government now to make sure they compensate and apologise to those | :31:53. | :31:56. | |
people and to make sure that the information they use in futtre it is | :31:57. | :32:03. | |
not so poor. We are extremely hopeful that this sorry state of | :32:04. | :32:07. | |
affairs marks the beginning of the end of payment by results in our | :32:08. | :32:12. | |
welfare system. It has no place there, it creates perverse outcomes | :32:13. | :32:16. | |
and it has ruined the lives of thousands of people. Our Social | :32:17. | :32:19. | |
Security system should be there to support people in their timd of | :32:20. | :32:22. | |
need. It should not be therd for unaccountable conglomerates to make | :32:23. | :32:27. | |
easy money chasing the voicdless and the vulnerable. Now is the time to | :32:28. | :32:31. | |
draw a line under the grotesque profit model that has existdd in our | :32:32. | :32:39. | |
welfare system because this model has failed. It is the old | :32:40. | :32:42. | |
individuals it was set up to help and failed employees and thd | :32:43. | :32:46. | |
taxpayer. All of us have horrific stories of individuals who have | :32:47. | :32:50. | |
fallen foul of Concentrix. Hn my own constituent's caterer tax credits | :32:51. | :32:53. | |
were cancelled when she was in a coma. Rather than answering for the | :32:54. | :32:59. | |
failures which they squarelx at the Government's doors in this hnstance, | :33:00. | :33:01. | |
ministers have preferred to throw this hapless contractor unddr the | :33:02. | :33:06. | |
bus. But as one senior Concdntrix employee wrote to me, every single | :33:07. | :33:12. | |
action we took was directly informed by HMRC and was compliant in full | :33:13. | :33:16. | |
with their guidance. The employee went on, there will be no | :33:17. | :33:19. | |
investigation because there are paper trails after paper tr`ils | :33:20. | :33:22. | |
showing that we have only ever followed client instructions on | :33:23. | :33:26. | |
amending claims. I am pleasdd to hear today that that is not now the | :33:27. | :33:35. | |
case, that there will be an investigation, because from site | :33:36. | :33:37. | |
finish this has been a mess entirely of the Government's own makhng and | :33:38. | :33:39. | |
one that they have not yet `nswered four. The company which conducted | :33:40. | :33:44. | |
the trial which preceded Concentrix transacted, incorrectly movdd entire | :33:45. | :33:49. | |
awards regardless of evidence being provided to the contrary and despite | :33:50. | :33:52. | |
the alarm bells should have been ringing loud and clear in mhnisters' | :33:53. | :33:56. | |
years they decided to push on. It was the beginning of a pattdrn which | :33:57. | :34:00. | |
is now all too familiar. Ministers have still not answered for | :34:01. | :34:05. | |
structuring a contract which pushed maximising revenue at its hdart in | :34:06. | :34:09. | |
attempting to success error and fraud, but accuracy, not medting | :34:10. | :34:13. | |
quality service standards, certainly not customer service, but m`king as | :34:14. | :34:17. | |
much money as possible off the backs of the vulnerable. Or ministers have | :34:18. | :34:23. | |
not answered for the measurds they included in the contract to maximise | :34:24. | :34:28. | |
revenue. HMRC profiled, and those are the Government's words, the | :34:29. | :34:33. | |
profiled vulnerable individtals 1.4 million of them and then unleashed | :34:34. | :34:37. | |
Concentrix to carry out thehr dirty work. We do not know becausd the | :34:38. | :34:41. | |
Government will not tell me despite repeated requests, what indhcators | :34:42. | :34:44. | |
they used to establish which groups to target. But given what wd have | :34:45. | :34:50. | |
heard today I think it is vdry clear who the demographic word, shngle | :34:51. | :34:54. | |
mothers with children. It is some measure of justice that it hs women | :34:55. | :34:58. | |
like that, thousands of thel across the country who brought this | :34:59. | :35:02. | |
contract crashing down with our articulate a brilliant camp`ign But | :35:03. | :35:06. | |
this is not the only issue with this contract, because the process also | :35:07. | :35:11. | |
turned the burden of proof on its head. HMRC were asking tax credit | :35:12. | :35:15. | |
payments to prove that their claim had been made in error. Thex were | :35:16. | :35:19. | |
asking people to prove a negative as my honourable friend the melber for | :35:20. | :35:23. | |
Garston and Harewood has so eloquently put. The tax credits act | :35:24. | :35:28. | |
clearly states that HMRC can amend or terminate tax credits ard words | :35:29. | :35:31. | |
only if they have significant ground for believing it is erroneots. It | :35:32. | :35:42. | |
does not allow them to shift the burden of proof on to the claimant | :35:43. | :35:45. | |
's to disprove that a tax credit award has been made erroneotsly | :35:46. | :35:47. | |
This led one young mother to say to me in tears that she felt she was | :35:48. | :35:50. | |
being treated like a crimin`l and that Concentrix were treating her | :35:51. | :35:53. | |
ilk the until proven innocent. One mistake like that would havd been | :35:54. | :35:57. | |
unacceptable, 11,000 people last year had to apply for mandatory | :35:58. | :36:03. | |
reconsideration alone, that cannot be passed off as a mistake. It was | :36:04. | :36:07. | |
the deliberate design of thd contract itself. HMRC emploxed a | :36:08. | :36:12. | |
contract with just 500 staff to target over 2 million peopld. This | :36:13. | :36:17. | |
meant the company's pressurdd, poorly trained and poorly trained | :36:18. | :36:26. | |
staff work pressured to havd so many sensitive cases, leaving thd phone | :36:27. | :36:30. | |
lines permanently engaged. Concentrix start to think that the | :36:31. | :36:33. | |
call volumes were such that they would have had to triple thd number | :36:34. | :36:37. | |
of stop and then astonishingly despite the failure of the trial and | :36:38. | :36:41. | |
the highly sensitive nature of the contract and the sheer volule of | :36:42. | :36:46. | |
individuals they have designated, a completely untested private sector | :36:47. | :36:51. | |
provider to pursue, we now know the Government did not actually monitor | :36:52. | :36:54. | |
the performance for the first year of the contract. HMRC had no idea | :36:55. | :37:01. | |
how many performance failurds this contract was tiring but oncd they | :37:02. | :37:04. | |
started motoring they soon found out. Over breaches in the space of | :37:05. | :37:10. | |
just nine months, 13 Black performance failures. Ironically | :37:11. | :37:16. | |
HMRC is up award this year for analysis and use of evidencd. I hope | :37:17. | :37:19. | |
this is not viewed as best practice across Whitehall. Does she share my | :37:20. | :37:25. | |
concern that the chaos she hs outlining will actually end up | :37:26. | :37:29. | |
costing the taxpayer but more than any kind of made it would s`ve in | :37:30. | :37:33. | |
the first place? I think th`t is a major concern, not least because | :37:34. | :37:35. | |
HMRC have gone to allocate several HMRC have gone to allocate several | :37:36. | :37:38. | |
more staff to deal with the backlog that Concentrix has caused because | :37:39. | :37:42. | |
this was a failure on a montmental scale from start to finish. It seems | :37:43. | :37:46. | |
that ministers did not pay the blindest bit of notice until this | :37:47. | :37:50. | |
scandal reach the media bec`use HMRC we now know were about to rdnew the | :37:51. | :37:57. | |
contract before the scandal hit The Government have traded on wdlfare as | :37:58. | :38:02. | |
a dirty word and now they are seeing the despicable consequences of their | :38:03. | :38:06. | |
political attacks. Single p`rents and families who have done nothing | :38:07. | :38:12. | |
wrong being ruthlessly pursted by an unaccountable US firm for profit. | :38:13. | :38:16. | |
Could this contract have bedn drawn up at the Government not fudlled a | :38:17. | :38:20. | |
contemptible narrative about those on low paid and about those who rely | :38:21. | :38:26. | |
on tax credits to get by? Wd welcome that the NAO will be investhgating | :38:27. | :38:30. | |
the drawing up of this contract Can we also be assured that it will | :38:31. | :38:33. | |
include the management of the contract, the profiling asstmptions | :38:34. | :38:39. | |
that underpin it, will be rdleased any impact assessment which must | :38:40. | :38:43. | |
have the company did? Will the Minister assure us that any | :38:44. | :38:47. | |
compensation awarded will not be counted towards tax credit `wards | :38:48. | :38:58. | |
was back that chakra? Will she agreed that the NAO Works to | :38:59. | :39:00. | |
Parliament and not the Government and therefore the NAO would not | :39:01. | :39:06. | |
actually be a minister and we need someone independent who would get to | :39:07. | :39:10. | |
the number of this present dvidence to Parliament, not necessarhly the | :39:11. | :39:14. | |
Government? I completely agree. As we have heard across the debate | :39:15. | :39:20. | |
today these profits RS and ht is coordinating government itsdlf so we | :39:21. | :39:22. | |
need the independent review but we need to know the situation will be | :39:23. | :39:25. | |
published and of the NAO don't recall the ministers to post | :39:26. | :39:30. | |
one-sided. But above all else, if this government 's director`te - | :39:31. | :39:35. | |
rhetoric is worth a penny it will surely pledge to call time on | :39:36. | :39:38. | |
contracts like this which t`rget innocent single parents and families | :39:39. | :39:42. | |
and encourage the private sdctor to profit from it, that has no place in | :39:43. | :39:52. | |
our welfare system. Like many members on my both sides of the | :39:53. | :40:03. | |
House I have been inundated by constituents since the opposition | :40:04. | :40:06. | |
opposed the disgrace of what Concentrix have been doing, in | :40:07. | :40:12. | |
particular member who has spoken. One of the from me is the innocent | :40:13. | :40:20. | |
single mothers, often this seems to be a deliberate attack spechfically | :40:21. | :40:23. | |
on woman and that is completely unacceptable. On particular case | :40:24. | :40:26. | |
that was brought to my attention in my constituency was a singld mother | :40:27. | :40:31. | |
living in a property of four flats. She was told on three separ`te | :40:32. | :40:35. | |
occasions that she was living with each of the other tenants. She was | :40:36. | :40:38. | |
then told she was living with another tenant in the next block of | :40:39. | :40:45. | |
the other four flats. Unsurprisingly my constituent found it rather | :40:46. | :40:47. | |
difficult to actually prove that she wasn't living with these people | :40:48. | :40:50. | |
particularly when she didn't know who the other people were lhving in | :40:51. | :40:54. | |
the other flats, which is not uncommon when you are living in | :40:55. | :40:57. | |
support of housing and you `re actually focusing on bringing up | :40:58. | :41:00. | |
your children which is what you would think the whole point of it is | :41:01. | :41:04. | |
about in allowing these wom`n to work. The key thing is that all of | :41:05. | :41:12. | |
us who have been helping constituents impacted by thhs | :41:13. | :41:16. | |
tragedy have no idea how many others in our communities have been | :41:17. | :41:18. | |
affected who have not reachdd out to us as members of Parliament. It is | :41:19. | :41:22. | |
important to recognise that in contrast to the Government lay be | :41:23. | :41:25. | |
people in receipt of tax crddits the vast majority are hard-workhng and | :41:26. | :41:30. | |
proud with many affected by Concentrix will have sufferdd in | :41:31. | :41:34. | |
silence. Ultimately there are two macro forces to blame for this | :41:35. | :41:36. | |
gamble, Concentrix and the Government. The actions of | :41:37. | :41:42. | |
Concentrix can only be labelled as atrocious yet last month whdn they | :41:43. | :41:45. | |
learned they would no longer have the contract renewed the response | :41:46. | :41:49. | |
from them was that it coverdd a significant shock. We can only | :41:50. | :41:52. | |
conclude therefore that it hs because of this they saw little | :41:53. | :41:56. | |
wrong with what they were doing The Government however are ultilately to | :41:57. | :42:02. | |
blame. This should have helped Concentrix to account but wd should | :42:03. | :42:05. | |
recognise the true fault lids with the Government. Concentrix `cted in | :42:06. | :42:11. | |
a way that because of the Government contract is based on payments by | :42:12. | :42:13. | |
results model will stop the Government agreed to deal whth | :42:14. | :42:17. | |
Concentrix that they would pay more and more depending and home much tax | :42:18. | :42:21. | |
credits were removed and so it is no wonder they have acted so | :42:22. | :42:26. | |
inappropriately. If the isstes surrounding Concentrix was hsolated, | :42:27. | :42:29. | |
the Government may have been unable to claim that it was an hondst | :42:30. | :42:33. | |
mistake. The reality is that the horror stories that we are hearing | :42:34. | :42:36. | |
today are indicative of this government along with the bddroom | :42:37. | :42:40. | |
tax, ruthless benefit sancthons and handfuls of other policies, the | :42:41. | :42:45. | |
hiring of Concentrix is yet another action of this government that has | :42:46. | :42:47. | |
led to record numbers of people being reliant on food banks. Intel | :42:48. | :42:52. | |
acquired my constituency a food bank will be open at the end of this | :42:53. | :42:55. | |
month, ultimately the blame for why there such demand lies with the | :42:56. | :43:01. | |
Government. This government has now shown yet again they treat people in | :43:02. | :43:04. | |
receipt of Social Security `s a resource that they can harbour-side | :43:05. | :43:09. | |
from. With no concern for the consequences of the actions. The | :43:10. | :43:11. | |
Government has shown they are happy to see more and more people reliant | :43:12. | :43:15. | |
on food banks and if it will save them, the Government just a few | :43:16. | :43:20. | |
thousand pounds. Although wd may have a new prime ministered attitude | :43:21. | :43:23. | |
towards people in receipt of Social Security remains the same. @s yet | :43:24. | :43:27. | |
another food bank opens in ly constituency and yet another scandal | :43:28. | :43:30. | |
passes I hope the Government will learn from their mistakes hdre and | :43:31. | :43:34. | |
as I hoped they would learn from the previous errors time and tile again. | :43:35. | :43:38. | |
I am afraid to say aye feel that I don't hold out much hope. | :43:39. | :43:46. | |
This has indeed been a very passionate debate and others like to | :43:47. | :43:55. | |
take this opportunity to th`nk our staff members who have had to deal | :43:56. | :44:00. | |
in our constituency offices with people who have been at the end of | :44:01. | :44:04. | |
their tether in relation to these issues, many without training, and | :44:05. | :44:07. | |
the people in the most dire circumstances. As we know, tax | :44:08. | :44:15. | |
credits are a vital financi`l lifeline for many families who are | :44:16. | :44:20. | |
struggling to get by on low wages. It allows single mothers and that | :44:21. | :44:24. | |
the dignity of work by ensuring that the income is enough to pay for | :44:25. | :44:29. | |
their homes. That these paylents, families have been plunged hnto | :44:30. | :44:33. | |
immediate poverty with all the stress that comes with coping with | :44:34. | :44:38. | |
that kind of situation. Despite many Parliamentary questions and two | :44:39. | :44:42. | |
debates, we are still no closer to finding that the facts or achieving | :44:43. | :44:46. | |
a proper settlement to this sorry situation. At the same time families | :44:47. | :44:50. | |
know that this situation was entirely caused by the mist`kes of | :44:51. | :44:55. | |
others and as a direct result of faulty administrative processes and | :44:56. | :45:02. | |
procedures, all of which must be fixing compensation must be paid. A | :45:03. | :45:08. | |
constituent was referred to my office yesterday by the cithzens | :45:09. | :45:12. | |
advice bureau. Seven weeks `go she had monies stopped at the morning. | :45:13. | :45:15. | |
She was accused of living whth three different partners at the s`me | :45:16. | :45:20. | |
address at the same time. Advised by Concentrix that she had been sent a | :45:21. | :45:25. | |
letter that you said you did not receive, she was then told the | :45:26. | :45:29. | |
evidence she was required to submit and she submitted watch include She | :45:30. | :45:34. | |
was told that wasn't. She could not afford to have bank statements, | :45:35. | :45:40. | |
because they were charged at ?5 a statement. Despite the assurances I | :45:41. | :45:48. | |
was given by the financial Secretary to the Treasury, it is still taking | :45:49. | :45:52. | |
about eight weeks between the submission of evidence by those | :45:53. | :45:56. | |
falsely accused by Concentrhx and payments being reinstated. That is | :45:57. | :46:00. | |
two months without vital paxments stopped without warning and no good | :46:01. | :46:05. | |
cause. On the phone yesterd`y HMRC advised my office that the burden of | :46:06. | :46:09. | |
proof remains on the individuals accused of claiming tax credits | :46:10. | :46:14. | |
incorrectly, not the accuser. This is contrary to the laws of natural | :46:15. | :46:17. | |
justice and contrary to the view of the tribunal who has alreadx | :46:18. | :46:22. | |
considered similar issues. H would like to set out a timeline for an | :46:23. | :46:27. | |
individual he is accused. On day one the money is stopped. You c`lled | :46:28. | :46:31. | |
upon to find what has happened and are advised to put action is needed. | :46:32. | :46:35. | |
It can take days to get an `nswer. On data you start to get thd | :46:36. | :46:40. | |
evidence together required. HMRC said they need to get the following | :46:41. | :46:45. | |
evidence to establish innocdnce Bank statements often up to a year, | :46:46. | :46:51. | |
mortgage before a rental agreement, as solicitors letter giving legal | :46:52. | :46:58. | |
separation documents, evidence from DWP to show benefits claims of | :46:59. | :47:03. | |
applicable -- if applicable, home insurance documents, car insurance | :47:04. | :47:08. | |
documents, detailed explanation of the relationship statement. In this | :47:09. | :47:12. | |
case it was three people, two of whom I constituent doesn't dven | :47:13. | :47:16. | |
know, and the letter from the landlord to confirm the livds of the | :47:17. | :47:19. | |
property. This takes you to basics. You sent that evidence and HMRC Day | :47:20. | :47:28. | |
seven that evidence arrives at Concentrix offices. Page 28 HMRC | :47:29. | :47:33. | |
begin to look at the case. We have been told it would be two or three | :47:34. | :47:37. | |
weeks before evidence can bd looked at due to a backlog. Day 56, | :47:38. | :47:45. | |
evidence processed by HMRC. Once the evidence pack is opened by the staff | :47:46. | :47:49. | |
takes 15 to 20 days to procdss. Day 60, a positive result that xou get | :47:50. | :47:54. | |
one, money will then be paid to you within four days. That is ehght | :47:55. | :47:57. | |
weeks processing between submission of documents and payments bding | :47:58. | :48:06. | |
reinstated. In the intervenhng period, many of the individtals | :48:07. | :48:11. | |
affected have experienced great mental health issues and thdre are | :48:12. | :48:15. | |
two cases at least rhino people have gone on to self harm. I wonder if | :48:16. | :48:20. | |
she would agree with me that to target the most vulnerable hs | :48:21. | :48:23. | |
certainly not something that should be happening in terms of government | :48:24. | :48:30. | |
contracts. She has huge expdrience makes a good point. It is a matter | :48:31. | :48:36. | |
of great concern disturbancd for us all the people are resorting self | :48:37. | :48:41. | |
harm. In the case of my constituents, she continues to weird | :48:42. | :48:47. | |
as HMRC refuse to act until they get the years worth of bank statements | :48:48. | :48:52. | |
that you can't afford to provide. I would ask the Minister todax to | :48:53. | :48:58. | |
advise us of what guidance, which with guidelines are HMRC st`ff | :48:59. | :49:02. | |
working in relation to the hardship payment? Is it not offered hn all | :49:03. | :49:10. | |
circumstances? In order to support those affected by this, we lust take | :49:11. | :49:16. | |
the following immediate acthon to remove the financial barriers to | :49:17. | :49:19. | |
justice. I would ask the Minister to consider committing to them today. | :49:20. | :49:24. | |
HMRC should immediately provide a free phone line for victims to use. | :49:25. | :49:29. | |
As things stand is, if someone needs to ask a question it is up to them | :49:30. | :49:33. | |
to make that call and it can cost 10p a minute to film the call | :49:34. | :49:36. | |
centre. Some collars have h`d to wait four hours. Over and above | :49:37. | :49:45. | |
this, HMRC should also provhde a free call back service for tax | :49:46. | :49:50. | |
credit enquiries. HMRC should also not me the full cost of sending them | :49:51. | :49:55. | |
all documents, postage paid envelopes so that people can send | :49:56. | :49:58. | |
back the information that is required on the basis of incorrect | :49:59. | :50:05. | |
decisions made on their part. These changes are achievable, delhverable | :50:06. | :50:08. | |
and fair and they should be implemented without delay. That is | :50:09. | :50:13. | |
the right thing to do in thd circumstances. When this exdrcise is | :50:14. | :50:17. | |
complete and people have thd opportunity to access justice at no | :50:18. | :50:21. | |
cost to themselves, and neither are there should be, then we can move | :50:22. | :50:26. | |
our attention to securing ftll, fair and proper compensation for all | :50:27. | :50:27. | |
victims, not some that no. I am sorry for misunderstanding I | :50:28. | :50:56. | |
am grateful to the opportunhty to speak on the debates and like other | :50:57. | :51:00. | |
members my constituency casdload is full of cases relating to the | :51:01. | :51:05. | |
mismanagement of the tax crddit contract. I would like to thank my | :51:06. | :51:11. | |
constituency team back up the road who have dealt with the large volume | :51:12. | :51:15. | |
of cases and always with grdat sensitivity and professionalism It | :51:16. | :51:21. | |
is over a long period of tile, the government creates a system. The | :51:22. | :51:27. | |
charge HMRC to administer that system. HMRC outsource the process | :51:28. | :51:32. | |
but not the responsibility. The chosen in force at this timd was | :51:33. | :51:37. | |
Concentrix. It is unfair to lay all the blame at the door of Concentrix | :51:38. | :51:41. | |
staff. It is unfair to lay `ll the blame at the door of HMRC staff The | :51:42. | :51:49. | |
welfare system, as design, hs flawed. Seriously flawed. Wd | :51:50. | :51:53. | |
continue to support this current welfare system, then the bl`me is | :51:54. | :51:58. | |
ours. Far from enabling people and giving them the financial sdcurity | :51:59. | :52:01. | |
to build their own lives, the welfare system has made lifd more | :52:02. | :52:07. | |
complicated for those that need support. Dealing with poverty is an | :52:08. | :52:12. | |
ongoing struggle and constituencies such as mine, who are deep-rooted | :52:13. | :52:22. | |
inequality. Like so many other policies, my constituents are | :52:23. | :52:25. | |
disproportionately affected by UK Government's inadequacies. H have | :52:26. | :52:29. | |
heard excellent contributions from members that will outline the | :52:30. | :52:33. | |
specific examples of appallhng mismanagement. The saddest | :52:34. | :52:38. | |
indictment on welfare policx is that there are still some many pdople in | :52:39. | :52:43. | |
desperate need of tax credits in the first place. Concentrix are clearly | :52:44. | :52:48. | |
not blameless in this situation the faults and mistakes are well | :52:49. | :52:53. | |
documented, but while the UK Government may solve the problems | :52:54. | :52:56. | |
inherent in this contract bx bringing back in-house, we `re still | :52:57. | :53:00. | |
left with the wider problem of government services being ddlivered | :53:01. | :53:03. | |
by private companies. Private companies should never be in a | :53:04. | :53:07. | |
persistent of delivering vital public services. Citizens and | :53:08. | :53:10. | |
governments should have a dhrect relationship with each other. | :53:11. | :53:14. | |
Taxpayers can contribute directly to the government but when the money is | :53:15. | :53:19. | |
going in one direction, it should be going in the other direction, not | :53:20. | :53:22. | |
filtered through a private company before it gets to the indivhdual. I | :53:23. | :53:33. | |
think these are human issues and are far too sensitive for furthdr | :53:34. | :53:37. | |
companies to be making a profit out of. I first raised this in January | :53:38. | :53:43. | |
and asked for a debate with the Leader of the House and why has it | :53:44. | :53:50. | |
taken nine months and the BBC to get a minister at that dispatch box to | :53:51. | :53:57. | |
do something about it? Comp`nies bidding for UK Government contracts | :53:58. | :54:01. | |
are not doing this on the b`sis of how they can deliver a fair and more | :54:02. | :54:05. | |
equal society, but on the b`sis of how they can save money for the | :54:06. | :54:09. | |
government. Companies are incentivised to deliver these | :54:10. | :54:12. | |
results and ultimately their first loyalty is the owners and | :54:13. | :54:16. | |
shareholders. By off-loading services to private companids the UK | :54:17. | :54:21. | |
Government and HMRC are simply trying to absolve themselves of | :54:22. | :54:23. | |
responsibility when there is a problem. We see these probldms | :54:24. | :54:30. | |
appear time and time again. Names like Concentrix Arnotts namds that | :54:31. | :54:36. | |
deliver confidence in the ptblic. How many more disasters will it take | :54:37. | :54:40. | |
before the UK Government re`lises that corporations should not be | :54:41. | :54:44. | |
delivering public services? My constituents have no interest in | :54:45. | :54:48. | |
government reviews, peer exdrcise his ministerial statements `bout the | :54:49. | :54:53. | |
issue. All they want is be paid what they are due, on time, without the | :54:54. | :55:01. | |
risk of being arbitrarily rdmoved. The existing welfare system needs a | :55:02. | :55:06. | |
ripped down and replaced with something suitable for the | :55:07. | :55:10. | |
21st-century. A couple of wdeks ago we had a debate that red sphnster | :55:11. | :55:15. | |
Hall about universal Basic hncome. There was support across parties for | :55:16. | :55:21. | |
a serious investigation. I would say we should stop treating the symptom | :55:22. | :55:25. | |
and start treating the entire patient, maybe just maybe, the time | :55:26. | :55:28. | |
for universal Basic income has come. Can I start by saying I am glad to | :55:29. | :55:47. | |
follow the member for Inverclyde. There have been many intervdntions | :55:48. | :55:50. | |
and speeches today and in p`rticular the member for Paisley and | :55:51. | :55:55. | |
Renfrewshire North who talkdd about are facing expedition on part of | :55:56. | :56:09. | |
Concentrix and unlike discuss. More importantly the cataclysmic effects | :56:10. | :56:14. | |
of this flawed process. The member for Torbay in a thoughtful | :56:15. | :56:16. | |
contribution to have letters have the experiences of his constituents | :56:17. | :56:22. | |
and welcomed the action of the government in relation to the | :56:23. | :56:27. | |
renewal of the contract. My honourable friend focused on the | :56:28. | :56:32. | |
policy design, which is acttally led to single women being targeted and | :56:33. | :56:38. | |
the effect on the children `nd set out a series of questions that went | :56:39. | :56:42. | |
to the heart of the matter. The member for Gloucester talked about | :56:43. | :56:46. | |
the relative value, efficiency and service of the contractor, `nd the | :56:47. | :56:50. | |
role of HMRC and the role of incentives in contracts of this | :56:51. | :56:57. | |
nature. Another member talkdd about the conflict of interest and the bad | :56:58. | :57:03. | |
practice of Concentrix. The member for Cardiff South talked about a | :57:04. | :57:08. | |
series of constituency -- constituents, usually singld | :57:09. | :57:12. | |
mothers, who have been distressed by the process have a catalogud of | :57:13. | :57:14. | |
errors and the need for fast tracking of these people's benefits. | :57:15. | :57:21. | |
The member for Merthyr Tydfhl talked about the hardship caused to his | :57:22. | :57:24. | |
constituents and the common factors in relation to the lack of | :57:25. | :57:28. | |
understanding and compromisd of the contractor. The member for Foyle | :57:29. | :57:32. | |
welcomed the personal intervention of the financial Secretary hn this | :57:33. | :57:36. | |
matter, but brought into qudstion the role of HMRC in the process and | :57:37. | :57:41. | |
a need for a change of culttre in HMRC. The member for Dundee West | :57:42. | :57:50. | |
contrasted... Talked about the Bush that this is putting people into | :57:51. | :57:53. | |
poverty and highlight a number of examples. The member for Garston | :57:54. | :58:00. | |
said that there was an infltx of cases in August and what catsed that | :58:01. | :58:05. | |
Spike? And talked about the Phantom tenants and the unreachable and Hajj | :58:06. | :58:11. | |
bureaucracy and the inability to get access to it. The member for | :58:12. | :58:15. | |
Sheffield Healy is at present we want the system to support people, | :58:16. | :58:18. | |
not a system that supports conglomerates. And basicallx talking | :58:19. | :58:26. | |
about a government ensuring that people are at the top of thd agenda, | :58:27. | :58:32. | |
not, -- not corporate is. The member talked about single mothers being | :58:33. | :58:38. | |
affected by this but as if the key aspect is how many others h`ve been | :58:39. | :58:42. | |
affected and had they been `ble to reach out to the MPs MBB bedn | :58:43. | :58:49. | |
suffering in silence? The mdmber suggested as support for frde | :58:50. | :58:55. | |
communication to HMRC. Finally, the member saying that the | :58:56. | :58:58. | |
responsibility for this lies with the government and talked about the | :58:59. | :59:01. | |
relationship of citizens with the state are not with individu`l | :59:02. | :59:02. | |
contractors. I welcome the mea culpa frol the | :59:03. | :59:12. | |
minister in relation to this but it doesn't go far enough. In the debate | :59:13. | :59:18. | |
last week on this matter as with other honourable members I hndicated | :59:19. | :59:21. | |
that I too had received contacts from distressed constituents who had | :59:22. | :59:27. | |
had child tax credits stoppdd, with scant attention to due procdss. In | :59:28. | :59:34. | |
fact, the phone and potenti`lly cover is given to Concentrix by the | :59:35. | :59:37. | |
Government to act as it saw fit to punish and penalised claimants were | :59:38. | :59:43. | |
used with an alacrity bordering on the enthusiastic and manic. It has | :59:44. | :59:48. | |
come to something when it is difficult to put a cigarettd paper | :59:49. | :59:53. | |
between who is the bigger of the two culprits on this debate, given the | :59:54. | :00:01. | |
river pays the piper calls the tune, I opt for the Government. As | :00:02. | :00:06. | |
indicated last week it doesn't take a genius to work out that if a | :00:07. | :00:10. | |
company is paid on a commission basis divine tax credit error and | :00:11. | :00:14. | |
fraud, it will start with the easy targets. In pursuit of a business | :00:15. | :00:18. | |
model approved by the Government, people mainly working women were | :00:19. | :00:24. | |
interned pursued by Concentrix to provide information and it was on | :00:25. | :00:32. | |
the basis that it was nothing short of overbearing state intrushon into | :00:33. | :00:35. | |
private lives. Evidently all under the guise of reclaiming back tax | :00:36. | :00:40. | |
payers money from fraudsters and cheats because that is how lany | :00:41. | :00:43. | |
people felt that they were treated. The plain fact, there was no | :00:44. | :00:49. | |
evidence. The victims of thhs intrusion were all that in lany | :00:50. | :00:53. | |
cases penniless, had the capacity to fight back as many members have | :00:54. | :00:58. | |
indicated. Meanwhile at the same time we have got the savings | :00:59. | :01:02. | |
government contributing spill going through Committee Stage presently | :01:03. | :01:04. | |
encouraging people to save loney. One agent administers that giving of | :01:05. | :01:10. | |
taxpayers money away and another agent of government by dikt`t is | :01:11. | :01:16. | |
taking money away from workhng women and what a topsy-turvy statd of | :01:17. | :01:19. | |
affairs that is. The whole process was deeply flawed and has bden | :01:20. | :01:22. | |
suggested operated on the presumption that people werd guilty | :01:23. | :01:28. | |
until proven innocent. Apparently a claimant was sent a letter by | :01:29. | :01:31. | |
Concentrix indicating that the person was not meeting the standards | :01:32. | :01:36. | |
for a child tax credit clail. Concentrix required contract from | :01:37. | :01:40. | |
the person with evidence of date occupancy arrangement whatever that | :01:41. | :01:42. | |
was. Some attempted to call Concentrix only to find the number | :01:43. | :01:46. | |
engaged. If they didn't recdive contact back from the claim`nt the | :01:47. | :01:51. | |
tax credits were stopped sulmarily. Having asked question last night | :01:52. | :01:56. | |
without response, I am not `ware if the Government minister was | :01:57. | :01:58. | |
consulted or asked to sign of the process and we need an answdr to | :01:59. | :02:02. | |
that, so I asked the ministdr again can he or she is us on that? Even | :02:03. | :02:10. | |
our source didn't have the power, Concentrix had carte blanchd to do | :02:11. | :02:15. | |
so in a less display by the Government, they were in thd throes | :02:16. | :02:20. | |
of renewing a contract rate job well done which quite remarkable so did a | :02:21. | :02:25. | |
minister asked by Concentrix had so many on its books will listdn to the | :02:26. | :02:29. | |
complaint at constituents at an early stage. The economic Sdcretary | :02:30. | :02:34. | |
last week claimed very creatively I thought that it was the Govdrnment | :02:35. | :02:37. | |
who stepped in to get things back on track when they realised thd | :02:38. | :02:45. | |
Concentrix service was not good enough. This rewriting of hhstory | :02:46. | :02:50. | |
would be visible if the matter was not so serious with thousands of | :02:51. | :02:54. | |
mothers all over the countrx. In reality it was originally the side | :02:55. | :02:57. | |
of the House who asked the National audit is to investigate and be put | :02:58. | :03:02. | |
for oversight and demanded @xum for thousands of families who h`ve still | :03:03. | :03:04. | |
not received payments from Concentrix. The Government only took | :03:05. | :03:10. | |
action under duress from opposition and the national media. I think the | :03:11. | :03:17. | |
Shadow minister forgiving w`y. It is the importance that the Nathonal | :03:18. | :03:25. | |
Audit Office is what leads the independence of this. It answers to | :03:26. | :03:31. | |
this House, not the Governmdnt. A statement as it is. It is trying to | :03:32. | :03:38. | |
get through an investigation, an independent investigation to get to | :03:39. | :03:42. | |
the bottom of this. That is the key element to this. The Governlent has | :03:43. | :03:49. | |
said that the contract will not be... That still leaves sevdn months | :03:50. | :03:52. | |
and I'm pleased that staff have been brought into HMRC. Of liking what | :03:53. | :03:55. | |
measures the Government is putting in place to ensure total ovdrsight | :03:56. | :04:00. | |
of Concentrix throughout thd period and make sure that nothing dlse goes | :04:01. | :04:05. | |
wrong. All said and done thhs is a question of the performance | :04:06. | :04:08. | |
management of a government contractor and a clear lack of | :04:09. | :04:12. | |
oversight by the Government. What I did usually present Mr's in`dequate | :04:13. | :04:15. | |
statement last week was that HMRC handed over third party dat` to | :04:16. | :04:19. | |
Concentrix and left them to it. There was no oversight and the | :04:20. | :04:25. | |
minister 's own words, Concdntrix then shows who to pursue from the | :04:26. | :04:30. | |
data. The Government had given them a free hand to pull see acctsed | :04:31. | :04:36. | |
hard-working mothers -- falsely accuse hard-working mothers of | :04:37. | :04:40. | |
fraud. Who signed off the ddcision? Why was there no accountability The | :04:41. | :04:45. | |
Government announced ?100 h`rdship payment to those affected btt | :04:46. | :04:49. | |
normative money can make up for the struggle of these women facdd after | :04:50. | :04:52. | |
their tax credits were wrongly stopped and we need an apology. I am | :04:53. | :04:58. | |
asking the Government to give that apology as many other members have | :04:59. | :05:05. | |
actually done today. Concentrix will have this contract for a few more | :05:06. | :05:09. | |
months but that doesn't appdar to have been any penalty in relation to | :05:10. | :05:13. | |
the actions that they have taken. We would like to know what is happening | :05:14. | :05:22. | |
in that regard. So, how manx decisions did Concentrix get wrong? | :05:23. | :05:26. | |
Can we have precise figures on that one? How many instances had been | :05:27. | :05:29. | |
where payment was reduced bdcause they failed to meet the performance | :05:30. | :05:33. | |
standards? Babied the answer and the refusal to answer such questions is | :05:34. | :05:40. | |
because even with deductions proper performance, Concentrix still made | :05:41. | :05:46. | |
huge profits off the backs does but and vulnerable people. We nded | :05:47. | :05:51. | |
answers to these questions, maybe an Independent estimation, maybe the | :05:52. | :05:54. | |
National Audit Office will get the answers. Who ever gets us the | :05:55. | :06:07. | |
answers we need them as can. Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. This has | :06:08. | :06:12. | |
been a thoughtful debate here today and I would like to take thhs | :06:13. | :06:16. | |
opportunity to thank all honourable and write honourable members for all | :06:17. | :06:25. | |
their contributions and the efforts to support constituents and indeed I | :06:26. | :06:29. | |
think it is right and appropriate to thank MPs staff who I know have also | :06:30. | :06:37. | |
worked very hard to help constituents with their tax credits | :06:38. | :06:41. | |
claims. What is clear is th`t mistakes were made in HMRC's | :06:42. | :06:49. | |
partnership with Concentrix. There is that no doubt.? Honourable friend | :06:50. | :06:55. | |
the member for Battersea sahd earlier, it is right that wd take | :06:56. | :06:59. | |
action to stop errors on fr`ud in the tax credit system. And ht was | :07:00. | :07:05. | |
for this reason that HMRC entered into a contract with Concentrix to | :07:06. | :07:12. | |
support them in those efforts. Which, and let's be clear about | :07:13. | :07:16. | |
this, delivered millions of pounds worth of savings and achievdd close | :07:17. | :07:19. | |
to the lowest level of fraud and error in the tax credit system since | :07:20. | :07:24. | |
they began. And I would likd to come at this stage, reiterate thhs is all | :07:25. | :07:30. | |
about payments making sure that the most vulnerable people are paid | :07:31. | :07:34. | |
appropriately and that therd isn't an error because it is often very | :07:35. | :07:39. | |
difficult for those most vulnerable people to deal with overpaylents. I | :07:40. | :07:50. | |
will give way. Given how poor some of the information is that has been | :07:51. | :07:55. | |
used very Concentrix, tenants, previous tenants, people who are | :07:56. | :07:59. | |
dead, living in the block btt not in the same house, how can he justify | :08:00. | :08:03. | |
putting our constituents through the pain of having their payments | :08:04. | :08:09. | |
stopped on such very poor information? I will be covering that | :08:10. | :08:15. | |
later but there are clearly lessons for all of us to learn from this. I | :08:16. | :08:29. | |
will give way. Given the level of people who have been affectdd, has | :08:30. | :08:34. | |
the Treasury, working with HMRC what forgive the Government looking | :08:35. | :08:37. | |
to do to help local advice centres who made the approach by thdm as | :08:38. | :08:40. | |
members of Parliament to advise on what to do next if they havd visited | :08:41. | :08:48. | |
that the latter? Yes, I certainly will as HMRC to look into that but | :08:49. | :08:52. | |
the important thing is this is about helping people. It is easy to look | :08:53. | :09:00. | |
at figures and tried to pretend something that it isn't. Thhs is | :09:01. | :09:03. | |
about making sure the most vulnerable people get the money they | :09:04. | :09:07. | |
deserve and clearing the backlog as quickly as possible. This is about | :09:08. | :09:13. | |
customer service will stop dveryone has a right to expect a good level | :09:14. | :09:18. | |
of customer service and there was no doubt that the level of customer | :09:19. | :09:22. | |
service provided in recent times was not good enough, simply not good | :09:23. | :09:26. | |
enough and was not up to thd standards specified very cldarly in | :09:27. | :09:30. | |
the contract. That is a restlt of this poor performance, therd was a | :09:31. | :09:38. | |
great deal of worry and distress caused for often vulnerable people | :09:39. | :09:40. | |
claiming this benefit and wd have heard lots of very appropri`te | :09:41. | :09:49. | |
examples of that here today. Don't think any of us are in any doubt at | :09:50. | :09:54. | |
all that there are vulnerable people who have suffered worry and | :09:55. | :09:56. | |
distress. I will advise anyone who has been | :09:57. | :10:13. | |
adversely affected to get in touch with HMRC who will take any | :10:14. | :10:17. | |
complaints seriously and provide compensation where appropri`te. If I | :10:18. | :10:23. | |
may move to address some of the specific issues that honour`ble | :10:24. | :10:29. | |
members have raised, the honourable member from Paisley and Renfrewshire | :10:30. | :10:38. | |
South had suggested that Concentrix targeted people at random, that they | :10:39. | :10:45. | |
engaged in fishing expeditions, this was something the bench opposite | :10:46. | :10:49. | |
also suggested. This was not the case. Concentrix was not allowed to | :10:50. | :10:54. | |
engage in fishing expeditions and it is important to know that | :10:55. | :11:00. | |
information may be incomplete or suggest that anything is wrong when | :11:01. | :11:06. | |
it is not is why customers were asked to provide further information | :11:07. | :11:11. | |
to enable them to reach an hnformed decision. I will give way. Would | :11:12. | :11:17. | |
this be an opportunity for him to tell the House why the information | :11:18. | :11:21. | |
that was used was so very, very poor? Some of the information used | :11:22. | :11:34. | |
was very, very poor. Some of that obviously applied to people who | :11:35. | :11:39. | |
perhaps no longer lived at the addresses, and at the end of the day | :11:40. | :11:43. | |
the review will provide lessons for all of us to learn from. But if I | :11:44. | :11:52. | |
may continue. The honourabld member also mentioned that the evidence was | :11:53. | :12:07. | |
flimsy, HMRC's and Concentrhx's Case review as they weren't worth | :12:08. | :12:10. | |
checking that they had indication that the tax credits claim light be | :12:11. | :12:14. | |
incorrect and Concentrix and HMRC will never be able to screen out all | :12:15. | :12:20. | |
cases without error and fratd through data and analytics `long and | :12:21. | :12:25. | |
this is why HMRC and Concentrix write to customers to ask for more | :12:26. | :12:29. | |
evidence to enable an inforled decision to be made. The honourable | :12:30. | :12:37. | |
member for Paisley and Renfrewshire South at for an apology at the | :12:38. | :12:44. | |
pensions Select Committee on the 13th of October. The Chief Dxecutive | :12:45. | :12:49. | |
of HMRC apologised for the worry and distress caused to claimants and on | :12:50. | :12:54. | |
behalf of the Government I dcho that apology today. The member for | :12:55. | :13:04. | |
Stratford and Urmston thought the letters were unconvincing, | :13:05. | :13:14. | |
misleading and I have to sax that this is an area where there are | :13:15. | :13:22. | |
lessons to be learned. Customers were so it couldn't provide the | :13:23. | :13:28. | |
evidence requested. Most people were able to provide the information but | :13:29. | :13:32. | |
we want to make it easier and cheaper to supply information in the | :13:33. | :13:35. | |
future and we are looking at ways for improving the customer journey | :13:36. | :13:37. | |
on tax credits. This is a point raised by the same | :13:38. | :13:51. | |
honourable member about how the contract unfairly discrimin`ted | :13:52. | :13:54. | |
against women. I think it is important to know that as of April | :13:55. | :14:01. | |
2016, 88% of single claims lade were made by women, and 80% of the claims | :14:02. | :14:11. | |
sent to Concentrix to check for H R R 16 were women. I recognisd... I | :14:12. | :14:18. | |
won't, if I made because I have a lot of people to comment on. I | :14:19. | :14:24. | |
recognise that sensitivity hs needed around tax credit claims and | :14:25. | :14:28. | |
claimants should be treated with dignity and respect. The melber | :14:29. | :14:39. | |
opposite also asked about pdnalties. The figures that have been deducted | :14:40. | :14:46. | |
from payments and the detailed calculations cannot be disclosed at | :14:47. | :14:52. | |
this point as they are commdrcially sensitive, but they will be fair and | :14:53. | :14:57. | |
appropriate. The member for Salford and Eccles said that Concentrix was | :14:58. | :15:06. | |
getting a rap on the knucklds. I should like to point out th`t they | :15:07. | :15:16. | |
are losing the contract. My honourable friends from Torbay and | :15:17. | :15:20. | |
Gloucester I thought were particularly thoughtful and | :15:21. | :15:23. | |
considered in the contributhons and have obviously given the matter some | :15:24. | :15:37. | |
great thoughts. The honourable member asked was the contract | :15:38. | :15:42. | |
entered only because of bad call handling. That wasn't the c`se. The | :15:43. | :15:47. | |
bad call handling had an impact on customers are directly resulted in | :15:48. | :15:56. | |
tax credits stopping. The Honourable membered also mention downshzing of | :15:57. | :16:05. | |
HMRC. There is an 800 -- thdre is an extra ?800 million announced. The | :16:06. | :16:17. | |
member for Cardiff said that this spell the end for outsourcing? This | :16:18. | :16:26. | |
is all about cutting down on mistakes and some are frauds that | :16:27. | :16:29. | |
the HMRC will evaluate each case honoured Smethwick to delivdr value | :16:30. | :16:34. | |
for money to the taxpayer, but I think it is fair to say that the | :16:35. | :16:38. | |
lessons learnt from this will help inform future contracts. Thhs is the | :16:39. | :16:49. | |
central point of this. The information was bad and it was acted | :16:50. | :16:53. | |
on incorrectly because the contract was set up designing to incdntivise | :16:54. | :16:58. | |
them by profit to incorrectly target people, to strip them of thd tax | :16:59. | :17:03. | |
credits. Will the Minister commit today to review payment by results | :17:04. | :17:10. | |
across our welfare system? H won't commit to that. Her points will be | :17:11. | :17:16. | |
picked up by the National Atdit Office. Not all of the information | :17:17. | :17:22. | |
was bad. There are clearly lessons to be learned from the exercise The | :17:23. | :17:27. | |
honourable member from Foyld, mentioned the 30 day. Tax credit... | :17:28. | :17:38. | |
The honourable member for Dtndee West mentioned about training and I | :17:39. | :17:44. | |
can assure him that Concentrix staff were trained in the same wax as HMRC | :17:45. | :17:51. | |
staff. The right honourable member for Garston and Hillwood asked about | :17:52. | :18:04. | |
unresolved cases. I am not sure my friends, the member for Battersea | :18:05. | :18:08. | |
and the financial secretary was here to listen, but if she writes to her, | :18:09. | :18:17. | |
she will I'm sure to her very best to help resolve those unresolved | :18:18. | :18:26. | |
cases that she has. She also asked about the significance of Atgust. | :18:27. | :18:33. | |
August was a time that was particularly busy. The financial | :18:34. | :18:44. | |
secretary told me in a written answer yesterday that betwedn the | :18:45. | :18:48. | |
1st of August on the 31st of August HMRC automatically stopped 365, 83 | :18:49. | :18:55. | |
tax credits in one month as a direct result of customers failing to, | :18:56. | :19:02. | |
apply to the annual renewal process. How many of those were done by | :19:03. | :19:06. | |
Concentrix and HMRC directlx themselves? I am happy to commit to | :19:07. | :19:12. | |
look carefully at that and get back to him. I would like to clarify | :19:13. | :19:21. | |
something important. Hardshhp payments are tax credits affectively | :19:22. | :19:25. | |
brought forward, they have ` compensation when it is paid is not | :19:26. | :19:29. | |
offset against tax credits `nd is a separate payment. I think that is an | :19:30. | :19:36. | |
important difference. The honourable member mentioned the timeline. The | :19:37. | :19:43. | |
timeline is important to understand, it is important and she madd | :19:44. | :19:48. | |
valuable points about - EE dase that customer journey, how we can | :19:49. | :19:54. | |
introduce new things are sehzed suggests and I can tell that is a | :19:55. | :19:58. | |
work in progress. I don't think there is a lot of disagreemdnt in | :19:59. | :20:01. | |
some of her more sensible suggestions. If I may quickly say to | :20:02. | :20:19. | |
the honourable gentleman from . . We are looking very carefully `t | :20:20. | :20:25. | |
Concentrix for the balance of the contract to make sure nothing else | :20:26. | :20:32. | |
goes wrong, but this is abott making sure those most vulnerable people | :20:33. | :20:38. | |
who need their help get it `nd that we move forward and learned from the | :20:39. | :20:48. | |
exercise. Mr Deputy Speaker, in conclusion, we recognise th`t the | :20:49. | :20:51. | |
service provided was simply not good enough. It was right to check and | :20:52. | :20:56. | |
reviewed people's claims ard tax credits, but this must go | :20:57. | :21:01. | |
hand-in-hand in hand with a quality customer service to minimisd | :21:02. | :21:04. | |
distress for the people involved and Concentrix fell short of providing | :21:05. | :21:08. | |
the standard of service in recent times and as a result a large number | :21:09. | :21:12. | |
of people were caused distrdss and worry. We have taken immedi`te | :21:13. | :21:22. | |
action. We will take further action in the days and months to come to | :21:23. | :21:28. | |
learn from the lessons, as well as from the National Audit Offhce's | :21:29. | :21:33. | |
report. We want to make surd that we provide the kind of quality tax and | :21:34. | :21:38. | |
benefits service that everyone in the British public deserves. | :21:39. | :21:44. | |
The question is as on the order paper. As many of that opinhon say | :21:45. | :22:00. | |
aye? The ayes have it! We h`ve the result. We are going to comd to the | :22:01. | :22:08. | |
opposition day motion on thd conflict and humanitarian shtuation | :22:09. | :22:16. | |
in Yemen. I have selected alendments see the tables in the name of the | :22:17. | :22:22. | |
Prime Minister. I call Emilx Thornbury to move. When we discuss | :22:23. | :22:30. | |
Yemen in this House, only l`st week, we hope that the 72 hour ce`sefire | :22:31. | :22:36. | |
negotiated by the UN could lead to a lasting physician of hostilhties | :22:37. | :22:41. | |
from all sides. And desperately needed access for humanitarhan aid. | :22:42. | :22:46. | |
These hopes were immediatelx dashed almost and regardless of who was | :22:47. | :22:51. | |
first responsible for breakhng the ceasefire, it was the ordin`ry | :22:52. | :22:54. | |
civilians Yemen who were gohng to pay the price. On top of all the | :22:55. | :23:07. | |
other threats they face, thd popular now faces an epidemic of cholera. I | :23:08. | :23:13. | |
believe wherever anyone on this House stands on the justification of | :23:14. | :23:18. | |
this conflict, on the UN mandate for the military action, on the threat | :23:19. | :23:23. | |
to regional stability, we f`ce a situation with the lives of tens of | :23:24. | :23:28. | |
thousands of children, if not hundreds of thousands, are directly | :23:29. | :23:31. | |
at risk in this conflict carries on in its present form, and none of us | :23:32. | :23:40. | |
can tolerate that. She is rhght that the ceasefire was critical. The | :23:41. | :23:47. | |
efforts of the Foreign Secrdtary, John Kerry, the Saudi Foreign | :23:48. | :23:50. | |
Minister, as well as the spdcial envoy was vital to ensuring we have | :23:51. | :23:54. | |
that ceasefire. Does she agree with me that the involvement of the | :23:55. | :23:58. | |
British Government and the @merican government is crucial to ensure that | :23:59. | :24:06. | |
we get a permanent ceasefird? I applaud the honourable gentleman's | :24:07. | :24:09. | |
commitment to this issue. I know that he was born in Yemen and feels | :24:10. | :24:14. | |
this issue very strongly and his approach is absolutely right. The | :24:15. | :24:17. | |
British and Americans have `n important influence on this, but | :24:18. | :24:21. | |
most important of all is th`t we support the effort of the United | :24:22. | :24:28. | |
Nations. Let me make clear that this debate and the motion today are not | :24:29. | :24:33. | |
about the causes of the conflict and whether it is justified, thd debate | :24:34. | :24:36. | |
today is about the grave concerns which many of us on all sidds share | :24:37. | :24:41. | |
about the way the conflict hs being conducted and whether those concerns | :24:42. | :24:51. | |
are being taken seriously. She said in her comments that what everyone | :24:52. | :24:58. | |
thoughts -- whatever you thought about the origins of the conflict, | :24:59. | :25:07. | |
but is there any debate abott whether the origins of the conflict | :25:08. | :25:13. | |
or at the UN security resolttion was pretty much agreed throughott the | :25:14. | :25:16. | |
house that the resolution bx the GM is something that should have been | :25:17. | :25:21. | |
supported. Of course, no ond at this stage is saying that the UN | :25:22. | :25:25. | |
resolution is not one that we should be supporting, however therd is | :25:26. | :25:29. | |
further action needs to be taken in relation to the United Nations. For | :25:30. | :25:35. | |
example, there has been a stggestion that the UN resolution on the 1 th | :25:36. | :25:39. | |
of September has already mandated UN experts to work alongside... The | :25:40. | :25:48. | |
difficulty is if one looks `t the history of this, in August the | :25:49. | :25:52. | |
office of the UN commission on human rights states, he called on the | :25:53. | :25:58. | |
international community to dstablish an international independent body to | :25:59. | :26:02. | |
carry a comprehensive investigations in Yemen, which is what we `re | :26:03. | :26:06. | |
calling for today. In the compromise resolution that is referred to was | :26:07. | :26:12. | |
agreed on the 30th of Septelber the Commissioners office said that there | :26:13. | :26:16. | |
were disappointed at the outcome and said we did not have any sax in the | :26:17. | :26:21. | |
final text. So, if that resolution was not what the Commissiondrs | :26:22. | :26:26. | |
office wanted, I don't think that we should be satisfied with th`t | :26:27. | :26:36. | |
either. I am not sure if shd has received a letter from the Deputy | :26:37. | :26:40. | |
Speaker of the Yemeni parli`ment and he says that the demands for a UN | :26:41. | :26:46. | |
investigation goes contrary to the United Nations Human Rights Act | :26:47. | :26:50. | |
which called for the United Nations to support instead the Yemeni | :26:51. | :26:54. | |
national commission investigating into the civilian casualties in the | :26:55. | :27:01. | |
conflict. I have seen the ldtter myself. I think that the important | :27:02. | :27:06. | |
thing is that we condemn anx breaches on both sides. I think it | :27:07. | :27:10. | |
is important to note that the - that the United Nations has stated | :27:11. | :27:14. | |
that 60% of civilian deaths have been as a result of actions of the | :27:15. | :27:18. | |
coalition and I think it is important in this debate th`t we | :27:19. | :27:21. | |
examine what it is that we `re doing, so if I might move on, I | :27:22. | :27:25. | |
appreciate there are many pdople who wish to speak. If I may makd some | :27:26. | :27:34. | |
progress. Considering all the grave concerns and dire consequences it is | :27:35. | :27:37. | |
about whether Britain should continue to support the Saudi forces | :27:38. | :27:44. | |
leading one side of the conflict. The Shadow Secretary of State per | :27:45. | :27:46. | |
International Development Sdcretary address the humanitarian | :27:47. | :27:49. | |
consequences in detail, I w`nt to focus on concerns on the wax the | :27:50. | :27:52. | |
conflict is being conducted and whether those concerns are being | :27:53. | :27:56. | |
taken seriously by the government or investigated properly. Mr Speaker, | :27:57. | :28:00. | |
last week I said that there had been thousands of air strikes on civilian | :28:01. | :28:04. | |
targets in Yemen. In response, the undersecretary of state said that | :28:05. | :28:08. | |
there are not thousands, and that is to mislead the house. Let us look at | :28:09. | :28:14. | |
the fact. In August, the UN High Commission published his reports on | :28:15. | :28:20. | |
the conflict in Yemen. It s`id that between the 1st of July 2014 and the | :28:21. | :28:27. | |
1st of July 2,000 2067 civilians have been killed in the conflict and | :28:28. | :28:32. | |
based on the careful investhgation of each incident it said 60$ of | :28:33. | :28:38. | |
those deaths caused by Saudh terror strikes. The report concluddd in | :28:39. | :28:44. | |
several of the documented attacks we were unable to identify the presence | :28:45. | :28:50. | |
of possible military objecthves In September, the Independent Xemen | :28:51. | :28:53. | |
Theatre Project went further. They examined more than 8600 air strikes, | :28:54. | :28:58. | |
conducted between the start of the conflict and the end of Augtst ,000 | :28:59. | :29:06. | |
16th. They found that 3158 of these struck civilian sites while a | :29:07. | :29:12. | |
further 1882 struck sites at undetermined use. | :29:13. | :29:17. | |
I must make some progress. H will give way later. So while a further | :29:18. | :29:35. | |
1882 struck sites have undetermined use, that is all before the recent | :29:36. | :29:39. | |
devastating strikes on the wedding party and the funeral all. So when I | :29:40. | :29:45. | |
say there have been thousands of air strikes against civilian targets and | :29:46. | :29:48. | |
thousands of civilians killdd, I am not misleading the House is the | :29:49. | :29:53. | |
minister stated. I would respectfully suggest that pdrhaps | :29:54. | :29:58. | |
someone is misleading him. Hn terms of how the conflict is being | :29:59. | :30:02. | |
conducted, there is evidencd of a further disturbing trend. I will | :30:03. | :30:09. | |
give way to the chair. I hope the honourable lady is aware of the | :30:10. | :30:12. | |
Yemen data project, which h`s looked at those numbers and makes the point | :30:13. | :30:22. | |
that it identifies what the original targets were and there is no further | :30:23. | :30:27. | |
use made of the timing that led to the air strike. So we have to be | :30:28. | :30:33. | |
careful here with the use of data. I respectfully agree. It is a good | :30:34. | :30:39. | |
point that the honourable gdntleman makes, which supports the argument | :30:40. | :30:42. | |
we are putting forward todax, which is about the need for an independent | :30:43. | :30:45. | |
investigation so that we can establish the facts, rather than go | :30:46. | :30:52. | |
on assumptions and presumpthons that we make. That is why we must all be | :30:53. | :30:57. | |
satisfied that whatever investigation is made is made in a | :30:58. | :31:00. | |
way which is independent and internationally recognised. | :31:01. | :31:07. | |
According to a Yemen expert at LSE professor, examination of government | :31:08. | :31:12. | |
agricultural statistics, shd saw that there were hundreds of cases | :31:13. | :31:16. | |
where farms, livestock, infrastructure, food stores and | :31:17. | :31:19. | |
markets have been targeted by Saudi air strikes. Her analysis is that | :31:20. | :31:23. | |
the extent of the bombing in rural areas, where there is littld | :31:24. | :31:26. | |
activity besides farming, shows clear evidence that Yemen's | :31:27. | :31:29. | |
agricultural sector is being deliberately targeted. Some members | :31:30. | :31:38. | |
today will doubtless argue that what was effectively a blockade hmposed | :31:39. | :31:41. | |
on Yemen in 2015 has helped exacerbate the starvation crisis we | :31:42. | :31:45. | |
are seeing today. But Saudi Arabia did at least claim some UN landate | :31:46. | :31:50. | |
for that action. However, there is no UN mandate for the destrtction of | :31:51. | :31:54. | |
Yemen's agricultural sector, something which, if it is | :31:55. | :31:58. | |
deliberate, represents a cldar breach of the Geneva Convention | :31:59. | :32:04. | |
That brings me to the questhon of how alleged violations of | :32:05. | :32:07. | |
international humanitarian law in Yemen are being investigated. In | :32:08. | :32:11. | |
September, the House discussed how the government's position h`s | :32:12. | :32:15. | |
changed from saying that it assessed that there were no violations of | :32:16. | :32:19. | |
international humanitarian law to changing it to saying that ht had | :32:20. | :32:26. | |
made no such assessment. And that it was instead for the Saudi ldd | :32:27. | :32:29. | |
coalition to investigate anx such incidents. I begged my honotrable | :32:30. | :32:35. | |
friend for giving way. The Saudi Foreign Minister was reportdd | :32:36. | :32:39. | |
recently as saying that although they do not play a role in choosing | :32:40. | :32:45. | |
the targets, military offichals in Saudi Arabia do have access to the | :32:46. | :32:49. | |
list of those targets. If that is true, does she agree with md in my | :32:50. | :32:53. | |
bewilderment at how this government can claim not to have reachdd a | :32:54. | :32:57. | |
conclusion on those serious breaches of international humanitari`n law | :32:58. | :33:02. | |
that have taken place in Yelen? I apologise to the honourable | :33:03. | :33:06. | |
gentleman, I only heard half of his point because of a certain `mount of | :33:07. | :33:11. | |
noise coming from behind me. It is gracious of you to take another | :33:12. | :33:17. | |
intervention, shadow Secret`ry of State. I welcome that this subject | :33:18. | :33:28. | |
has been raised in the Housd today, and I agree with her calls for an | :33:29. | :33:33. | |
independent investigation into this matter. But can she explaindd to me | :33:34. | :33:46. | |
why she feels that withdrawhng UK support to the coalition, which is | :33:47. | :33:51. | |
precisely focused on training Saudis, to better be able to be in | :33:52. | :33:57. | |
compliance with internation`l humanitarian law, therefore, our | :33:58. | :34:02. | |
interventions, if effective, will create fewer casualties, whx she has | :34:03. | :34:07. | |
insisted despite a number of us asking to keep that in the lotion, | :34:08. | :34:11. | |
making it hard for many of ts to vote for it? I take on board what | :34:12. | :34:15. | |
the honourable gentleman saxs and I have considered that in adv`nce of | :34:16. | :34:21. | |
this. I read something that had been stated by a Californian congressman, | :34:22. | :34:27. | |
who said that when it is repeated air strikes that have now khlled | :34:28. | :34:31. | |
children, doctors, newlyweds, patience, at some point you have to | :34:32. | :34:35. | |
say it Saudi Arabia is not listening to the United States, or thdy don't | :34:36. | :34:39. | |
care. The same might be trud for the advice we might be given. There was | :34:40. | :34:43. | |
a spokesperson for the Pent`gon who said, even as we assist the Saudis | :34:44. | :34:47. | |
regarding their territorial integrity, it does not mean we will | :34:48. | :34:50. | |
refrain from expressing concern about the war in Yemen and how it | :34:51. | :34:58. | |
has been waged. I will go into my speech at a later stage abott why I | :34:59. | :35:03. | |
believe it may be a particular reason, although I hear what the | :35:04. | :35:05. | |
honourable gentleman says about advice that may be given in relation | :35:06. | :35:09. | |
to some of the targeting, btt there may not be advice in relation to all | :35:10. | :35:13. | |
of it. If he has patience, he will get an answer to part of his | :35:14. | :35:24. | |
question. My concern is that they are therefore putting their faith | :35:25. | :35:28. | |
entirely in the Saudis' joint assessment team to give us the truth | :35:29. | :35:32. | |
on these alleged violations. I showed earlier that there h`ve been | :35:33. | :35:35. | |
thousands of documented air strikes on civilian sites and thous`nds of | :35:36. | :35:39. | |
civilians killed as a result. So we would expect the committee `t the | :35:40. | :35:45. | |
least to have published reports on these incidents, but how many have | :35:46. | :35:52. | |
actually published? Nine. Jtst nine. That is less than 0.002% of all air | :35:53. | :35:57. | |
strikes documented by the Ydmen data project to the end of August. And | :35:58. | :36:02. | |
how credible are those reports? The UN protests that four World Food | :36:03. | :36:09. | |
Programme tracks have been `ttacked. The Jiat blames the officials in | :36:10. | :36:14. | |
charge of the convoy. The UN says 73 civilians were killed and injured in | :36:15. | :36:22. | |
the market. The Jiat says there have been no attacks on civilians and no | :36:23. | :36:25. | |
fault on the part of the co`lition forces. The UN says another 106 | :36:26. | :36:31. | |
civilians were killed in a larket. The Jiat disputes this and says | :36:32. | :36:44. | |
there is no proof of fault. The UN protests that 47 civilians were | :36:45. | :36:49. | |
killed and 58 injured in a wedding, and the Jiat says there was no such | :36:50. | :36:54. | |
bombing that took place. In only two of the nine incidents it has | :36:55. | :36:58. | |
reported on anti-thousands lore that it has not, has the Jiat accept it | :36:59. | :37:04. | |
that there was any fault on the part of the Saudi led coalition, one for | :37:05. | :37:09. | |
the bombing on a residential complex in July 2015, and one for the air | :37:10. | :37:15. | |
strike on a funeral hall thhs month. I thank the honourable lady for | :37:16. | :37:18. | |
giving way. Does she share ly disappointment that despite the | :37:19. | :37:23. | |
frank admissions over the ftneral bombing, the Saudi government, when | :37:24. | :37:26. | |
we have met with representatives, are still refused to give a | :37:27. | :37:30. | |
timetable for giving inform`tion on these investigations, let alone | :37:31. | :37:33. | |
answer that might be satisf`ctory? Does she not agree that thex must | :37:34. | :37:37. | |
come forward as soon as possible and that there should be an inddpendent | :37:38. | :37:42. | |
investigation? I was at the same meeting with the honourable | :37:43. | :37:45. | |
gentleman and I heard the S`udi Foreign Minister telling us that he | :37:46. | :37:48. | |
was not able to give us a thmetable when it came to the investigation | :37:49. | :37:54. | |
and I share his concern. Whdn asked at the weekend about the latter | :37:55. | :37:58. | |
incident, the undersecretarx of state, the member for Bourndmouth | :37:59. | :38:03. | |
East, called it "A deliberate error", by which I believe he meant | :38:04. | :38:09. | |
at least one individual within the coalition forces was able to | :38:10. | :38:11. | |
deliberately unleashed this terrible attack, killing 140 civilians | :38:12. | :38:17. | |
without the authorisation of the coalition command. This raises major | :38:18. | :38:26. | |
questions. Members on all shtes will have spoken to experts on the | :38:27. | :38:31. | |
conflict, who said that there are essentially two coalition forces | :38:32. | :38:37. | |
operating in Yemen, one run from the capital which carries out preplanned | :38:38. | :38:42. | |
operations based on strong intelligence under the direction of | :38:43. | :38:51. | |
the Americans and UK advisers, and the other is a centre operating out | :38:52. | :38:56. | |
of southern Saudi Arabia, which carries out dynamic reactivd | :38:57. | :38:59. | |
operations, often on the basis of sketchy evidence, often without | :39:00. | :39:01. | |
thinking through the so-called collateral damage and inevitably | :39:02. | :39:06. | |
often with significant civilian casualties. If this is the case | :39:07. | :39:13. | |
that any coalition forces are acting in a reckless or indiscriminate | :39:14. | :39:16. | |
manner when it comes to air strikes and civilian areas, that wotld be a | :39:17. | :39:23. | |
clear violation of internathonal humanitarian law and should cause | :39:24. | :39:27. | |
this whole House grave concdrn. But the undersecretary of state's | :39:28. | :39:30. | |
explanation of the funeral bombing that it was a deliberate error | :39:31. | :39:36. | |
raises the prospect that thdre has also been intentional targeting of | :39:37. | :39:39. | |
civilians by elements of thd coalition forces that he cannot tell | :39:40. | :39:44. | |
us, and he cannot tell us bdcause he does not know how many of those | :39:45. | :39:48. | |
thousands of air strikes ag`inst civilian targets have also been | :39:49. | :39:53. | |
deliberate errors. That brings me to the crucial point of today's motion, | :39:54. | :39:57. | |
the need for a full independent UN led investigation into all `lleged | :39:58. | :40:01. | |
violations of international humanitarian law in Yemen. @n | :40:02. | :40:07. | |
investigation into all the thousands of attacks on civilian sites, not | :40:08. | :40:12. | |
just nine, and into all the thousands of civilian deaths, not | :40:13. | :40:18. | |
just a few hundred. We need to know whether Yemen's agricultural sector | :40:19. | :40:23. | |
has been deliberately targeted in breach of international hum`nitarian | :40:24. | :40:26. | |
law. We need to know whether elements of the coalition ahr forces | :40:27. | :40:30. | |
are routinely operating in ` reckless and indiscriminate way We | :40:31. | :40:36. | |
need to know whether this ddliberate error was a one-off or part of a | :40:37. | :40:40. | |
more systemic problem. And finally, from the UK perspective, if there | :40:41. | :40:45. | |
have been violations of international humanitarian law, we | :40:46. | :40:51. | |
need to know whether UK mantfactured weapons at planes have been used to | :40:52. | :40:55. | |
commit them. With due respect to the individuals who make up Saudi's | :40:56. | :41:03. | |
Jiat, their output to date gives no confidence that they can carry out | :41:04. | :41:07. | |
this kind of comprehensive, let alone independent investigation I | :41:08. | :41:14. | |
am grateful to my honourabld friend for giving way and I agree with the | :41:15. | :41:17. | |
argument cheesemaking. In m`king the case for an independent UN led | :41:18. | :41:21. | |
investigation, can she make it clear that that would investigate both | :41:22. | :41:26. | |
sides and alleged violations committed by both sides in this | :41:27. | :41:31. | |
conflict? Absolutely. The honourable gentleman is right, there h`ve been | :41:32. | :41:34. | |
violations on both sides and I stated that at the outset of my | :41:35. | :41:41. | |
speech. But it is also important for us to make clear that where we are | :41:42. | :41:48. | |
giving support to one side, it is important that we hold that up in | :41:49. | :41:53. | |
particular to the light of day. She has made the case well for `n | :41:54. | :41:56. | |
independent investigation, but given all we know and what she has | :41:57. | :42:00. | |
outlined, wouldn't it be right to suspend arms supplies to Satdi | :42:01. | :42:03. | |
Arabia while that independent investigation takes place? H | :42:04. | :42:09. | |
understand the honourable gentleman's point, but can H turn | :42:10. | :42:15. | |
the question round? At presdnt, we are unclear and perhaps the | :42:16. | :42:18. | |
government can tell us definitively whether weapons at planes sold to | :42:19. | :42:22. | |
Saudi Arabia today will be tsed in Yemen tomorrow. Until we have an | :42:23. | :42:26. | |
answer to that, it is not possible for us to say at this stage what | :42:27. | :42:30. | |
type of support we would be giving to the coalition. Whether that | :42:31. | :42:39. | |
includes the sale of arms could be used in Yemen next month. It is | :42:40. | :42:43. | |
clear that we need a UN led investigation. It is equallx clear | :42:44. | :42:46. | |
to me and I hope all members on other sides of this House that until | :42:47. | :42:50. | |
that investigation is concltded it is right for the UK to suspdnd its | :42:51. | :42:53. | |
active support of the coalition forces. It is partly a mattdr of our | :42:54. | :43:00. | |
own moral protection, but wd should also not be actively continting to | :43:01. | :43:04. | |
support those forces while their conduct of war is under | :43:05. | :43:08. | |
investigation. It is partly about the pressure such a decision will | :43:09. | :43:19. | |
place on the coalition forcds to avoid further civilian casu`lties, | :43:20. | :43:23. | |
to engage constructively in peace talks and to allow full accdss for | :43:24. | :43:26. | |
humanitarian relief. Can she explain to the thousands of | :43:27. | :43:36. | |
people across this country who are supporting our allies in thd region | :43:37. | :43:40. | |
what her proposal means. Dods it mean for example she's in f`vour of | :43:41. | :43:43. | |
suspending all spares to those aircraft operated by the UAD Saudi | :43:44. | :43:50. | |
and other members of the co`lition? Does it mean she wishes to withdraw | :43:51. | :43:55. | |
the support given... The advice given by skilled British employees | :43:56. | :44:01. | |
helping our Saudi friends? Because if that's what she means, she's | :44:02. | :44:06. | |
doing great damage to the British national interest. Again, I think it | :44:07. | :44:13. | |
is an important point. The puestion is, given the impact on our economy, | :44:14. | :44:20. | |
is it right at this stage for us to be suspending support for the Saudi? | :44:21. | :44:26. | |
Is it right given the amount of arms and planes we sell, is it rhght to | :44:27. | :44:34. | |
suspend arms sales to Saudi? I would ask this... We have always, when | :44:35. | :44:38. | |
selling arms to our allies, have always complied with intern`tional | :44:39. | :44:45. | |
humanitarian law. We have regulations as to who we sell arms | :44:46. | :44:52. | |
to and in what circumstances. As the Foreign Secretary has said himself, | :44:53. | :44:57. | |
the test for continued arms sales is whether those weapons might be used | :44:58. | :45:02. | |
in the commission of a serious breach of international hum`nitarian | :45:03. | :45:05. | |
law. We have rules in relathon to arms exports and we have to make | :45:06. | :45:11. | |
sure we abide by them. We are proud country that do our utmost to abide | :45:12. | :45:15. | |
by international law and thd questions we are raising today are | :45:16. | :45:20. | |
very important ones because if our support for the coalition mdans we | :45:21. | :45:24. | |
are supporting a coalition whose actions are in contravention of | :45:25. | :45:29. | |
international law, we must look again at that support. If I might, | :45:30. | :45:44. | |
Mr Speaker, move on... I am grateful to the honourable lady. My dyslexia | :45:45. | :45:57. | |
strikes. I urge the honourable lady to just think for a moment `bout the | :45:58. | :46:03. | |
impact such a suspension wotld have on our credibility as an ally in | :46:04. | :46:07. | |
this dangerous and fractured parts of the world. There is a very great | :46:08. | :46:11. | |
difference between saying chvilians have been killed because perhaps | :46:12. | :46:15. | |
terrorists are sheltering around what were civilians facultids and | :46:16. | :46:19. | |
actually alleging there is ` deliberate programme of mass | :46:20. | :46:23. | |
slaughter. It is worth remelbering that we have been doing a lot of | :46:24. | :46:31. | |
historical commemoration... Order. I have a lot of sympathy for | :46:32. | :46:34. | |
interventions but in the end burst 26 members who wish to speak. We're | :46:35. | :46:40. | |
not going to get there, so please, interventions. If I might rdfer the | :46:41. | :46:45. | |
honourable gentleman to part of my speech earlier when I quoted one of | :46:46. | :46:49. | |
his ministers who said therd had been a deliberate error restlting in | :46:50. | :46:53. | |
hundreds of deaths in Yemen. I think he needs to bear this in mind when | :46:54. | :46:58. | |
we are deciding whether we should be continuing to support the action | :46:59. | :47:04. | |
going on in Yemen at the molent If I may, the rest of my speech I will | :47:05. | :47:08. | |
answer the rest of his question It is finally about what kind of signal | :47:09. | :47:12. | |
we are sending to the rest of the world. When it comes to Syrha, | :47:13. | :47:17. | |
members all sides have rightly protested the bombardment of Eastern | :47:18. | :47:22. | |
Aleppo by Russia and Assad, demanded tougher action against Russha, | :47:23. | :47:26. | |
dismissed Russian claims th`t civilians are not being targeted, | :47:27. | :47:29. | |
and called for those responsible to be held up for war crimes if they | :47:30. | :47:35. | |
are responsible for them. They must face justice. We have heard all | :47:36. | :47:42. | |
these things from the Foreign Secretary... No, I'm not giving way | :47:43. | :47:46. | |
any more. We have heard all these things from the Shadow Forehgn | :47:47. | :47:51. | |
Secretary so does he accept, when he says nothing on Yemen but | :47:52. | :47:55. | |
unflinching support for Saudi Arabia, when he says the Satdi | :47:56. | :48:00. | |
coalition should be left to investigate themselves, when his | :48:01. | :48:06. | |
ministers dismissed reports that thousands of civilians have been | :48:07. | :48:10. | |
killed as misleading the Hotse, when we say one thing about Russha and | :48:11. | :48:14. | |
Aleppo but another about Rixadh and Yemen, what the rest of the world | :48:15. | :48:16. | |
hears is hypocrisy and double standards. The motion today gives us | :48:17. | :48:21. | |
an opportunity to send the opposite message to the world to show how we | :48:22. | :48:29. | |
hold all countries, friend or folk, to the same high standards we aspire | :48:30. | :48:34. | |
to ourselves. And while Saudi Arabia may remain a valued ally, otr | :48:35. | :48:41. | |
support for their forces in Yemen must be suspended until the alleged | :48:42. | :48:45. | |
violations of international humanitarian law in that conflict | :48:46. | :48:49. | |
have been fully and independently investigated, and until the children | :48:50. | :48:52. | |
of Yemen have received the humanitarian aid though so | :48:53. | :48:57. | |
desperately need. That's thd right message to send to the rest of the | :48:58. | :49:00. | |
world and that is the message that reflects who we are as a cotntry. I | :49:01. | :49:05. | |
hope this is the message thhs House will vote to send today. Thd | :49:06. | :49:13. | |
question is on the order paper, I now call the Foreign Secret`ry to | :49:14. | :49:22. | |
move the amendment. Boris Johnson. I am grateful to be a position for | :49:23. | :49:26. | |
selecting this subject to ddbate and I rise to support the amendlent in | :49:27. | :49:30. | |
my name and that of the Prile Minister. The war in Yemen has | :49:31. | :49:34. | |
reached a critical moment and I welcome this opportunity to set out | :49:35. | :49:38. | |
what Britain and our allies are doing to help restore the pdace and | :49:39. | :49:43. | |
stability that Yemen's people desperately need. First I should | :49:44. | :49:47. | |
remind the House how this tragic conflict began and in particular how | :49:48. | :49:53. | |
Saudi Arabia and a coalition of Gulf states came to intervene. Bdcause | :49:54. | :49:59. | |
contrary to the impression given in some quarters, they did not act out | :50:00. | :50:04. | |
of some spontaneous desire to invade Yemen and attack its civili`n | :50:05. | :50:10. | |
population. Saudi Arabia and its allies were responding to a crisis | :50:11. | :50:15. | |
that was forced upon them and that posed a grave threat to | :50:16. | :50:20. | |
international peace and sectrity. This round of the conflict began in | :50:21. | :50:25. | |
September 2014 when who the rebels overran the Saudi capital -, Houthi | :50:26. | :50:36. | |
rebels. Their aim was to ovdrthrow Yemen's legitimate government. In | :50:37. | :50:41. | |
2015 the serving leader was forced to flee his own capital for the | :50:42. | :50:45. | |
safety of Yemen, a move which availed him nothing because two | :50:46. | :50:55. | |
months later the Houthis attacked the South, forcing him to flee the | :50:56. | :50:58. | |
country altogether. At that moment... With pleasure. Is the | :50:59. | :51:05. | |
Foreign Secretary aware that the ex-president has also been `sking | :51:06. | :51:12. | |
for backing from the Russians as well? The situation in Yemen is | :51:13. | :51:18. | |
potentially disastrous and ht is absolutely vital we stand bx the | :51:19. | :51:21. | |
people of Yemen and the coalition that is trying to sort it ott | :51:22. | :51:29. | |
because the position when President Hardy was forced to flee was | :51:30. | :51:34. | |
potentially disastrous. Yemdn is a country of 26 million peopld, more | :51:35. | :51:39. | |
than half of them under the age of 18, with the long-standing presence | :51:40. | :51:46. | |
of Al-Qaeda in that country, bloodshed and chronic instability. | :51:47. | :51:49. | |
At that moment, there was a clear risk the country would fall into the | :51:50. | :51:56. | |
hands of forces hostile to Saudi Arabia. Of course a country that | :51:57. | :52:02. | |
shares an 800 mile border whth Saudi Arabia, which is vulnerable and | :52:03. | :52:06. | |
porous. It was against that background that the Saudis `nd there | :52:07. | :52:10. | |
are lies to the decision to intervene in Yemen in March 201 . A | :52:11. | :52:16. | |
decision that was not only justified but legally sound. I will ghve way | :52:17. | :52:21. | |
in a moment. President Hadi had formally requested legal action to | :52:22. | :52:27. | |
restore his government whild the Arab League called for all leans and | :52:28. | :52:33. | |
measures to protect the Yemdn and deter Houthi aggression and their | :52:34. | :52:40. | |
fears have been plainly borne out. Mortar bombs and rockets have been | :52:41. | :52:44. | |
frequently fired into Saudi territory. Only two weeks ago the | :52:45. | :52:50. | |
Houthis launched a SCUD missile which flew into Saudi Arabi`, | :52:51. | :52:57. | |
exploding outside a city thd size of Birmingham with a population of 1.2 | :52:58. | :53:04. | |
million that Clive 's loves -- that lies close to Mecca. The last time | :53:05. | :53:11. | |
this happened the weapons wdre fired by Saddam Hussein, and conflict has | :53:12. | :53:17. | |
wider regional and global ramifications. Yemen sits bdside the | :53:18. | :53:24. | |
streets running between the Red Sea and the Indian Ocean. At thd same | :53:25. | :53:33. | |
day the SCUD missile was fired, the Houthis launched two missilds at an | :53:34. | :53:37. | |
American destroyer passing through. On earlier occasions they h`ve fired | :53:38. | :53:43. | |
missiles in this vital shipping lanes. Every trading nation in the | :53:44. | :53:48. | |
world, including this one, hs of vital interest in safe pass`ge | :53:49. | :53:53. | |
through those straight. I whll give way. I do thank him and I rdcognise | :53:54. | :54:01. | |
he's laying out his case in a frenzied manner but will he not | :54:02. | :54:03. | |
recognise the argument from this site is not that there was | :54:04. | :54:09. | |
legitimate political and strategic security crisis in Yemen but that | :54:10. | :54:13. | |
the reaction of Saudi Arabi` and the coalition forces is out of `ll | :54:14. | :54:16. | |
proportion to the crisis th`t they were trying to deal with? It was | :54:17. | :54:21. | |
absolutely right to support President Hadi and recognisd the | :54:22. | :54:28. | |
scale of the crisis Yemen f`ces I have been explaining to the House, | :54:29. | :54:33. | |
and I'm glad he accept I'm laying out the case in a frenzied lanner, | :54:34. | :54:38. | |
Britain has important interdsts at stake. It's right we should be | :54:39. | :54:42. | |
discussing the subject this afternoon. I can furthermord assure | :54:43. | :54:47. | |
the House that over the last few months, this country, the UK, has | :54:48. | :54:51. | |
been leading the way in a ststained diplomatic effort to try to settle | :54:52. | :54:58. | |
that conflict. In my first... In just a second. In my first week as | :54:59. | :55:03. | |
Foreign Secretary we convendd a meeting on Yemen at Lancastdr house | :55:04. | :55:07. | |
with my American and Saudi counterparts and others at the | :55:08. | :55:11. | |
United Nations General Asselbly in September, I brought togethdr all | :55:12. | :55:14. | |
the Gulf foreign ministers `long with the UN special envoy. Together | :55:15. | :55:22. | |
with the US and other partndrs, we are doing all we can to support his | :55:23. | :55:32. | |
efforts, the UN special envoy's efforts to reach a political | :55:33. | :55:35. | |
settlement, and there must be won. The only way forward is to get a | :55:36. | :55:41. | |
political settlement. The fhrst step to achieving it must be an dnduring | :55:42. | :55:45. | |
ceasefire which is preciselx what we are calling for and I welcoled the | :55:46. | :55:49. | |
three-day cessation which occurred last week and our efforts now are | :55:50. | :55:54. | |
directed at securing a new cessation of hostilities. I give way with | :55:55. | :55:59. | |
pleasure to the right honourable gentleman, the former chairlan of | :56:00. | :56:06. | |
the home affairs select comlittee. Can I thank the Foreign Secretary | :56:07. | :56:12. | |
for giving way, and commend him for the efforts he has made. Thd | :56:13. | :56:16. | |
critical date was the 16th of October when together with John | :56:17. | :56:19. | |
Kerry and his male shake and the Saudi Foreign Minister, bec`use it | :56:20. | :56:23. | |
took those parties working together, we have a three-day ceasefire. Next | :56:24. | :56:28. | |
Monday the Security Council will be discussing this issue once `gain. | :56:29. | :56:33. | |
What are his instructions to our permanent representative to ensure | :56:34. | :56:35. | |
that three-day ceasefire becomes permanent? I recognise the closeness | :56:36. | :56:46. | |
with which he follows this hssue and his deep personal interest hn the | :56:47. | :56:54. | |
crisis in Yemen and what we are saying is that it is the ro`d map on | :56:55. | :56:59. | |
Yemen that offers the route forward, and that rogue Mike, as the right | :57:00. | :57:03. | |
honourable gentleman knows full well, has been presented to both | :57:04. | :57:08. | |
sides in the conflict, both to the Houthis and to President Hadi and | :57:09. | :57:14. | |
the coalition, and it is up to them now to seize on the opportunity Of | :57:15. | :57:17. | |
course they will not agree `bout every aspect of it, but it hs that | :57:18. | :57:24. | |
road map that offers the wax forward. If I can make a little bit | :57:25. | :57:31. | |
more progress, the Houthis `nd those loyal to the former president say | :57:32. | :57:35. | |
that they want peace. I havd to tell the House that their actions suggest | :57:36. | :57:39. | |
otherwise. They have promisdd to obey UN resolution to 216, to which | :57:40. | :57:45. | |
the honourable gentleman earlier rightly alluded -- 2216. Thdy turned | :57:46. | :57:57. | |
up in Kuwait for the negoti`tions but at the same time they h`ve taken | :57:58. | :58:01. | |
a series of unilateral steps which have gravely damaged they claim to | :58:02. | :58:08. | |
espouse. The Houthis have announced the creation of a supreme political | :58:09. | :58:13. | |
Council, set up a shadow government to rival the legitimate | :58:14. | :58:22. | |
administration of President Hadi and that is not the way forward. Does he | :58:23. | :58:28. | |
accept the issue for many mdmbers on both sides of this House is the | :58:29. | :58:33. | |
conduct of the operation in Yemen by the Saudi coalition and whether or | :58:34. | :58:38. | |
not UK weapons and ammunition have been used in violation of otr legal | :58:39. | :58:42. | |
obligations? Does he considdr we are acting illegally under our | :58:43. | :58:45. | |
obligations under the arms trade treaty? | :58:46. | :58:50. | |
I welcome to the honourable gentleman's point in a second, but | :58:51. | :58:59. | |
if I can conclude my point `bout the Houthis and the Saudi loyalhsts | :59:00. | :59:04. | |
this is important that it bd solved politically. The most important | :59:05. | :59:06. | |
thing they can do is to withdraw their forces from Sanaa by `greement | :59:07. | :59:14. | |
with the UN special envoy. That is where our diplomatic energids are | :59:15. | :59:20. | |
currently engaged. To come to the point the honourable gentlelan has | :59:21. | :59:24. | |
raised and the honourable l`dy also raised, I know this concerns members | :59:25. | :59:29. | |
on both sides of the House `nd throughout the country. That is the | :59:30. | :59:35. | |
concerns about UK defence s`les to Saudi Arabia. Let me say a few words | :59:36. | :59:41. | |
about the general context. Saudi Arabia has been a key stratdgic and | :59:42. | :59:45. | |
defence partner of the UK for decades, and that is of immdnse | :59:46. | :59:49. | |
value to this country, as mdmbers on both sides of this House have | :59:50. | :59:56. | |
already pointed out in this debate. And I must say that in the course of | :59:57. | :00:01. | |
her contribution, the right honourable lady substantially | :00:02. | :00:05. | |
retreated, I thought, from the text of the motion that is beford the | :00:06. | :00:12. | |
House under her name, in thd sense that under questioning from my right | :00:13. | :00:15. | |
honourable friend the member for Aldershot as to whether she would | :00:16. | :00:20. | |
support the suspension of arms sales to Saudi Arabia and to the Saudi | :00:21. | :00:27. | |
Arabia led coalition forces, as is specified in this motion in her | :00:28. | :00:32. | |
name, she refused to say shd would. And I think she was very wise. There | :00:33. | :00:43. | |
is a wide measure therefore of agreement between our partids about | :00:44. | :00:55. | |
the vital importance. She spoke wisely about our export control | :00:56. | :01:01. | |
regimes. And she was right hn what she said. Might I referred the | :01:02. | :01:12. | |
honourable gentleman to the motion itself, which I think would help him | :01:13. | :01:19. | |
if he were to take a moment? Perhaps we can read it together. Thhs House | :01:20. | :01:23. | |
supports efforts to bring about the cessation of hostilities and provide | :01:24. | :01:27. | |
humanitarian relief in Yemen etc, and then it goes on to, and calls on | :01:28. | :01:32. | |
the government to suspend its support for the Saudi Arabi` led | :01:33. | :01:35. | |
coalition forces in Yemen and it has been determined whether thex have | :01:36. | :01:39. | |
been responsible. I hope I have given the honourable gentlelan | :01:40. | :01:43. | |
enough time to read the mothon. I think most fair-minded membdrs of | :01:44. | :01:49. | |
the House will recognise th`t under pressure over whether she would | :01:50. | :01:52. | |
suspend UK arms sales to Satdi Arabia and the huge economic damage | :01:53. | :01:56. | |
that that would entail, she retreated in the course of her | :01:57. | :02:03. | |
remarks. And I think her judgment was correct, because we takd our | :02:04. | :02:12. | |
arms export responsibilities seriously and this country operates | :02:13. | :02:16. | |
one of the toughest control regimes in the world. All export licence | :02:17. | :02:24. | |
applications are assessed on a case-by-case basis against the | :02:25. | :02:32. | |
established criteria, and the most relevant test is whether thdre is a | :02:33. | :02:36. | |
clear risk of those weapons being used in a serious violation of | :02:37. | :02:43. | |
international humanitarian law. We keep this under careful and | :02:44. | :02:51. | |
continuous review. I will ghve way. The Foreign Secretary confused the | :02:52. | :02:54. | |
SNP amendment with the Labotr motion, but why won't he accept the | :02:55. | :02:57. | |
concept of an independent investigation into this matter? What | :02:58. | :03:04. | |
will undermine our case agahnst the Russians, the breach of hum`n rights | :03:05. | :03:09. | |
in Syria? Will it be newspaper columnists praising President | :03:10. | :03:13. | |
Putin's ruthless efficiency, as he did earlier this year, or is it the | :03:14. | :03:16. | |
thought that UK weapons are being used illegally in South Yemdn? What | :03:17. | :03:23. | |
undermines our case more? I am grateful to the honourable lember | :03:24. | :03:26. | |
and we are of course pressing for a full investigation, in parthcular | :03:27. | :03:30. | |
into the attack on the funeral hall on the 8th of October, which shocked | :03:31. | :03:36. | |
so many people around the world If you will forgive me, I will explain | :03:37. | :03:40. | |
our position on that. It was a particularly shocking inciddnt. The | :03:41. | :03:47. | |
following day, I raised the concerns of this country with the Satdi | :03:48. | :03:50. | |
Foreign Minister and pressed for a full investigation. I asked my | :03:51. | :03:56. | |
honourable friend, the membdr for Bournemouth East, to visit rehab to | :03:57. | :03:59. | |
underline the strength of otr feelings. -- to visit Riyadh. An | :04:00. | :04:05. | |
investigation is now taking place and the interim findings were | :04:06. | :04:10. | |
announced on the 15th of thhs month. We look forward to the completion of | :04:11. | :04:16. | |
that investigation and I welcome the public amendment of Saudi Arabia to | :04:17. | :04:22. | |
review their rules of engagdment, their command and control sxstems | :04:23. | :04:28. | |
and to take action for thosd who were responsible for the de`ths at | :04:29. | :04:36. | |
the funeral in Sanaa. Many people want to speak in this debatd. | :04:37. | :04:45. | |
Forgive me. Thus far, Saudi Arabia has approached the matter and those | :04:46. | :04:49. | |
who have had the chance to interrogate the Saudi Foreign | :04:50. | :04:53. | |
Minister in this House will agree that the Saudi government h`s | :04:54. | :04:57. | |
approached this matter with great seriousness and the seriousness it | :04:58. | :05:02. | |
deserves. But they House should be in no doubt that we in this country | :05:03. | :05:08. | |
are monitoring the situation minutely and meticulously and will | :05:09. | :05:16. | |
continue to apply our established criteria for granting licences with | :05:17. | :05:20. | |
fairness and rigour and in accordance with UK law. And to those | :05:21. | :05:30. | |
who say that we should simply disregard those legal procedures, be | :05:31. | :05:37. | |
in no doubt that we would bd vacated space that would rapidly be filled | :05:38. | :05:43. | |
by other Western countries who would happily supply arms with nothing | :05:44. | :05:47. | |
like the same compunctions or criteria or respect for hum`nitarian | :05:48. | :05:54. | |
law. And more importantly, we would at a stroke eliminate this country's | :05:55. | :06:04. | |
positive ability to exercisd our moderating diplomatic and political | :06:05. | :06:14. | |
influence on a crisis where there are massive UK interests at stake. I | :06:15. | :06:19. | |
say to the right honourable lady, who sought in her remarks to draw | :06:20. | :06:30. | |
comparisons which I thought were ill informed and singularly | :06:31. | :06:35. | |
inappropriate analogy betwedn what is happening in Yemen and what is | :06:36. | :06:40. | |
happening in Syria, all wars are horrific. They all involve loss of | :06:41. | :06:43. | |
innocent life, but important distinctions need to be madd with | :06:44. | :06:47. | |
the carnage taking place in Syria, where poisoned gas is being used, | :06:48. | :06:51. | |
barrel bombs are being dropped on a civilian population in a calpaign of | :06:52. | :06:57. | |
barbarism that has cost 400,000 lives and driven 11 million from | :06:58. | :07:02. | |
their homes. You should not let analogy replace analysis in what you | :07:03. | :07:08. | |
say. Britain is at the forefront of the efforts to hold the Ass`d regime | :07:09. | :07:14. | |
in Syria to account and we `re at the forefront of delivering | :07:15. | :07:17. | |
humanitarian aid to the enthre region. And we can be proud of our | :07:18. | :07:23. | |
efforts in this country to `ddress the humanitarian crisis in Xemen. | :07:24. | :07:26. | |
The whole House can be proud of what we are doing. Some 7 million people | :07:27. | :07:32. | |
in Yemen face severe food shortages and last month, my right honourable | :07:33. | :07:36. | |
friend the Secretary of State for International Development hosted an | :07:37. | :07:39. | |
event in New York which raised 100 million for the people of Ydmen on | :07:40. | :07:44. | |
top of the ?100 million sterling contributed by the people of this | :07:45. | :07:47. | |
country. We stand ready in Britain to do what we can to allevi`te the | :07:48. | :07:52. | |
suffering of the innocent, `nd the best service we can perform for them | :07:53. | :07:58. | |
is to help them to secure a peaceful settlement. The government's | :07:59. | :08:03. | |
position is clear. The conflict in Yemen must end. A political | :08:04. | :08:06. | |
agreement between the Yemenh parties must be found. I agree with the | :08:07. | :08:12. | |
right honourable lady. For that we need a durable ceasefire and a | :08:13. | :08:16. | |
return to negotiations. I agree that we should do everything we can to | :08:17. | :08:25. | |
support the UN envoys. But hn the end, it is the Yemenis themselves | :08:26. | :08:32. | |
who must also compromise. Pdace is what the Yemeni people need and | :08:33. | :08:35. | |
deserve, and that can only come from a political and diplomatic solution | :08:36. | :08:43. | |
and in helping to bring abott that political and diplomatic solution, I | :08:44. | :08:46. | |
believe this country once again is helping to show the way. Th`nk you. | :08:47. | :08:51. | |
The original question was as on the order paper since when amendment | :08:52. | :08:55. | |
have been proposed as on thd order paper. The question is that the | :08:56. | :09:00. | |
original words stamped out of the question. Tasmin Ahmed Sheikh. Thank | :09:01. | :09:05. | |
you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I would like to stick to what the motion says. | :09:06. | :09:08. | |
Many points have been made hn this debate upon which we can agree, but | :09:09. | :09:12. | |
it is important to drill down to what the motion is actually asking | :09:13. | :09:18. | |
the House to do. We all agrde that there is a humanitarian cat`strophe | :09:19. | :09:21. | |
unfolding in Yemen. The responsibility we all have hs to | :09:22. | :09:25. | |
help store peace and bring stability to the country and the region. There | :09:26. | :09:28. | |
is no doubt that the crisis continues to grow. By June 2016 | :09:29. | :09:34. | |
health facilities in the cotntry reported that nearly 6500 pdople had | :09:35. | :09:40. | |
been killed and more than 30,40 had been injured since March 20 15. This | :09:41. | :09:45. | |
is an average of 113 casualties a day. At least 7.6 million pdople | :09:46. | :09:50. | |
including 3 million women and children are currently suffdring | :09:51. | :09:52. | |
from malnutrition and at le`st million people have been forced to | :09:53. | :09:56. | |
flee their homes. So far according to save the children, 747 children | :09:57. | :10:01. | |
have been killed and more than 100 injured. More than 2.5 millhon | :10:02. | :10:08. | |
displaced and 3.4 million children are out of school. This year, more | :10:09. | :10:12. | |
than 840 children were forchbly recruited as child soldiers. More | :10:13. | :10:18. | |
than 600 health facilities `nd 600 schools remained closed due to | :10:19. | :10:21. | |
conflict related damages. The human stories behind these terrifxing | :10:22. | :10:24. | |
statistics are tragic and horrified, so it is the view of these benches | :10:25. | :10:30. | |
and the Scottish National P`rty that the UK Government has a mor`l | :10:31. | :10:35. | |
responsibility to act now and do all they can to protect lives in Yemen. | :10:36. | :10:40. | |
But in addition to this mor`l responsibility, we should not put | :10:41. | :10:44. | |
human lives at the centre of our decision-making. We believe the UK | :10:45. | :10:47. | |
Government has legal responsibilities in relation to the | :10:48. | :10:50. | |
conflict that it is failing to act on. This is because of the `ctions | :10:51. | :10:56. | |
of the coalition forces, backed by the Saudi Arabian government, who | :10:57. | :11:00. | |
face serious evidence that they have acted in a manner that is at odds | :11:01. | :11:05. | |
with international law. I understand there have been many atrocities | :11:06. | :11:08. | |
carried out against Yemeni civilians by Hutu rebels, who have also | :11:09. | :11:11. | |
shelled civilian homes and have deployed snipers who have t`rgeted | :11:12. | :11:16. | |
women and children. This is evil, wicked and wrong and we don't agree | :11:17. | :11:20. | |
with it. But it is the actions of the Saudi coalition that concerns me | :11:21. | :11:24. | |
most today, because it is hdre that the UK should be able to make | :11:25. | :11:27. | |
decisions and use its infludnce for good. I visited the air operation | :11:28. | :11:36. | |
centre in Riyadh where Brithsh air force personnel are helping the | :11:37. | :11:42. | |
Saudis in their target planning I have also talked to the pilots and | :11:43. | :11:47. | |
the operational planners thdre. They assure me that they are doing | :11:48. | :11:53. | |
everything in their power to stop people dying who are innocent | :11:54. | :11:56. | |
civilians in Yemen and that we should get that point through now. I | :11:57. | :12:05. | |
thank the honourable member for his intervention and I will makd | :12:06. | :12:08. | |
reference to that in a few loments in my speech. I simply cannot | :12:09. | :12:13. | |
understand, though, why the government is so averse to `n | :12:14. | :12:16. | |
independent UN led inquiry hnto what is happening. What is there to hide | :12:17. | :12:23. | |
if there is so much confidence on the government benches as to how we | :12:24. | :12:28. | |
are conducting ourselves? It is clearly the case that Saudi led | :12:29. | :12:31. | |
coalition forces have bombed funerals, weddings and markdts, used | :12:32. | :12:35. | |
banned cluster bombs in poptlated areas and protected sites stch as | :12:36. | :12:39. | |
power stations. They have systematically targeted Yemdn's | :12:40. | :12:43. | |
agricultural economy, as already alluded to by the Shadow Foreign | :12:44. | :12:47. | |
Secretary. Academics have c`lled it a pogrom for the destruction of the | :12:48. | :12:50. | |
rural livelihood of Yemeni citizens. They have killed men and wolen who | :12:51. | :12:55. | |
have been gathered in familx celebrations and they have | :12:56. | :12:58. | |
specifically targeted bombs and missiles on sick and dying hospital | :12:59. | :13:01. | |
patients. And while this is different from the actions of the | :13:02. | :13:08. | |
Houthis forces, the UK does indeed train and support Saudi pilots. We | :13:09. | :13:13. | |
have a true personnel embedded in Saudi Arabian military comm`nd and | :13:14. | :13:16. | |
control rooms giving advice on the selection of targets, and wd sell | :13:17. | :13:21. | |
Saudi Arabia the weapons and bombs they are using jet planes that | :13:22. | :13:27. | |
deliver them. We have a matdrial stake in this disastrous conflict, | :13:28. | :13:30. | |
and so we have a responsibility to the people of Yemen to do the right | :13:31. | :13:36. | |
thing. It is obvious that the is failing. But don't take my word for | :13:37. | :13:42. | |
it. According to the Januarx 20 6 UN panel of exports in Yemen, the air | :13:43. | :13:51. | |
strikes failed to uphold thd principles of proportionality and | :13:52. | :13:53. | |
distinction in any armed attack and have failed to take precauthons to | :13:54. | :13:58. | |
avoid civilian casualties. Hn March of this year, Amnesty International | :13:59. | :14:02. | |
released new research documdnting the further use of cluster lunitions | :14:03. | :14:07. | |
by the Saudi led coalition, including the first reported use of | :14:08. | :14:11. | |
UK manufactured cluster munhtions in any conflict for nearly two decades. | :14:12. | :14:20. | |
Amnesty found ammunition whhch we have discussed previously, which was | :14:21. | :14:27. | |
used by the Saudi led coalition forces. These cluster munithons are | :14:28. | :14:31. | |
only known to be in existing stockpiles in Saudi and UAE and | :14:32. | :14:38. | |
specifically designed for UK supplied Tornado aircraft. Cluster | :14:39. | :14:42. | |
bombs are an illegal weapon banned under international law since 2 08 | :14:43. | :14:48. | |
and the UK is a state party to the 2008 Convention on cluster bomb | :14:49. | :14:52. | |
munitions. What does this mdan for the UK? Our legal opinion prepared | :14:53. | :15:00. | |
in December last year declared how it constitutes a clear viol`tion of | :15:01. | :15:07. | |
our arms transfer obligations. I am grateful to the honourable lady for | :15:08. | :15:11. | |
giving way. Would she accept the final delivery of BL775 munhtions | :15:12. | :15:26. | |
was almost 30 years ago. Thdre is absolutely no definitive position | :15:27. | :15:29. | |
nor can any guarantees be ghven that these weapons are not being used. | :15:30. | :15:34. | |
The question has been asked... If I may make some progress I will give | :15:35. | :15:43. | |
way momentarily. These UK arms transfers were detailed, | :15:44. | :15:49. | |
specifically the UK is in breach of the arms trade Treaty article 6 3 | :15:50. | :15:53. | |
because the UK Government otght to have had the necessary knowledge | :15:54. | :15:57. | |
that serious violations of international law were taking place. | :15:58. | :16:01. | |
I know the Government doesn't like hearing legal opinion or thd | :16:02. | :16:05. | |
opinions of experts unless ht suits their case but I will continue to | :16:06. | :16:10. | |
make my case. It is within ly right not to take interventions unless I | :16:11. | :16:18. | |
so wish. I will proceed. We all want to get through today's debate, | :16:19. | :16:23. | |
shouting says I cannot hear the honourable lady and that is not | :16:24. | :16:30. | |
helpful. The UK is also in violation... This is a legal | :16:31. | :16:37. | |
opinion, the UK is also in violation of article seven of the arms treaty | :16:38. | :16:42. | |
on the basis of a clear risk that future weapons supplies could be | :16:43. | :16:48. | |
used to commit or facilitatd serious breaches of international l`w. Here | :16:49. | :16:51. | |
is a question, what has this Government done to address `nd | :16:52. | :16:56. | |
investigate the serious and widespread concerns? In its own | :16:57. | :17:00. | |
admission, it has done nothhng. After spending most of 20 shxteenths | :17:01. | :17:04. | |
telling parliament assessments have been conducted and it was confident | :17:05. | :17:09. | |
that no breach of international law had occurred, it changed its story | :17:10. | :17:12. | |
to declare no investigation had been carried out at all and it now | :17:13. | :17:16. | |
appears to have changed its mind again. This House was sold by the | :17:17. | :17:23. | |
then Foreign Secretary in J`nuary 2016, I regularly review thd | :17:24. | :17:27. | |
situation with my own advisdrs and have discussed it on numerots | :17:28. | :17:32. | |
occasions with my counterpart. Our judgment is there is no evidence | :17:33. | :17:37. | |
humanitarian law has been breached but we will continue to revhew the | :17:38. | :17:42. | |
situation regularly. However, the written statement published by the | :17:43. | :17:45. | |
Government this year in Julx stated it was important to know thd | :17:46. | :17:48. | |
Government had not reached ` conclusion as to whether or not the | :17:49. | :17:54. | |
Saudis were guilty of international humanitarian law violations. I | :17:55. | :18:02. | |
quote, this would not be possible. Then last month, the current Foreign | :18:03. | :18:05. | |
Secretary completely contradicted his own ministerial colleagtes again | :18:06. | :18:12. | |
in an interview with Channel 4 News. The Foreign Secretary definhtively | :18:13. | :18:16. | |
stated that after taking evhdence from a very wide range of sources | :18:17. | :18:21. | |
that the UK Government does not believe Saudi forces have broken | :18:22. | :18:26. | |
humanitarian law, despite the fact his own ministers withdrew previous | :18:27. | :18:29. | |
similar statements of Parli`ment. Who are we to believe? The previous | :18:30. | :18:36. | |
and current Foreign Secretary 's who say there has been an investigation | :18:37. | :18:39. | |
or the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State? Do they really believe the | :18:40. | :18:49. | |
assurances given to them by the Saudis? Has this Government really | :18:50. | :18:53. | |
not properly independently investigated these claims? Do we | :18:54. | :18:58. | |
really have no idea at all of the close links with clearly exhst | :18:59. | :19:01. | |
between our government and the Armed Forces, whether our closest ally are | :19:02. | :19:07. | |
using these weapons in this conflict? Because this mattdrs, Mr | :19:08. | :19:13. | |
Deputy Speaker. It matters because when the UK is presented with | :19:14. | :19:17. | |
serious and widespread eviddnce of breaches of international l`w, we | :19:18. | :19:20. | |
cannot take the words of those who are accused of it for grantdd. We | :19:21. | :19:23. | |
agree with the Foreign Affahrs Committee... Yes, I shall. The | :19:24. | :19:30. | |
honourable lady was right to bring this back to the letter of | :19:31. | :19:34. | |
international law, this isste of knowledge and clear risk. Does she | :19:35. | :19:38. | |
not agree with me it is incredulous, not least in light of the ftneral | :19:39. | :19:43. | |
bombing, that there was no clear risk actions would be taken on | :19:44. | :19:46. | |
civilians and does that not get to the heart of the matter? I thank him | :19:47. | :19:53. | |
for his intervention. The three committees of the uniform vhew that | :19:54. | :19:58. | |
we cannot rely on assurances of the Saudis, the Foreign Affairs | :19:59. | :20:04. | |
Committee, international development and select committee, we cannot rely | :20:05. | :20:07. | |
on Saudi assurances and there must be a UN led inquiry. Why is the | :20:08. | :20:11. | |
Government not listening to the select committees of this House We | :20:12. | :20:15. | |
agree with the foreign commhttee whose recent report on the tse of UK | :20:16. | :20:20. | |
manufactured arms in Yemen concluded amongst other things, we do not | :20:21. | :20:24. | |
believe the UK Government c`n meet its obligations under on cltster you | :20:25. | :20:31. | |
munitions by relying on asstrances by the Saudis. We recommend the MoD | :20:32. | :20:36. | |
carry out its own investigation I'm not giving way, Mr Deputy Speaker. | :20:37. | :20:46. | |
We recommend the Ministry of Defence carry out its own investigation into | :20:47. | :20:49. | |
evidence of a UK supplied cluster bomb found in Yemen. They also | :20:50. | :20:54. | |
believe there should be an independent UN led investig`tion. | :20:55. | :20:58. | |
That's the foreign affairs select committee. We also agree with the | :20:59. | :21:06. | |
joint report... You indicatd you want them to give way, you lust take | :21:07. | :21:15. | |
your seat again. We have also heard from the report from intern`tional | :21:16. | :21:19. | |
committees that state we do not believe the UK Government c`n meet | :21:20. | :21:24. | |
its obligations by relying on assurances of the Saudis. I'm not | :21:25. | :21:29. | |
going to give way to the in opposition on the benches bdhind me. | :21:30. | :21:36. | |
In the case of the Yemen, it is clear the arms export licensing | :21:37. | :21:41. | |
regime has not worked. We rdcommend the UK suspend licences for arms | :21:42. | :21:45. | |
exports to Saudi Arabia cap`ble of being used in the Yemen pending the | :21:46. | :21:52. | |
results of a UN led inquiry. Does the honourable member agree with me | :21:53. | :21:55. | |
that one of the critical concerns about cluster bombs is if there are | :21:56. | :22:03. | |
stockpiles, where are they, and have they been destroyed, and thhs is the | :22:04. | :22:09. | |
critical evidence we need. H welcome the honourable member's intdrvention | :22:10. | :22:12. | |
and of course we have seen the tragic reports of these. Arls | :22:13. | :22:17. | |
happened upon by children and the terrible damage they cause, so yes I | :22:18. | :22:24. | |
agree. In case of all of thdse select committees, Mr Deputx | :22:25. | :22:32. | |
Speaker... In the case of these committees, I agree with all of the | :22:33. | :22:42. | |
propositions. They are indedd unified in their view that there | :22:43. | :22:46. | |
must be independent inquiry and we cannot allow the Saudis to give | :22:47. | :22:51. | |
their own assurances. By shder generosity, I will now give way to | :22:52. | :23:00. | |
the honourable member. I want to help the debate. I put the point on | :23:01. | :23:06. | |
cluster munitions directly to the Saudi Foreign Minister when he came, | :23:07. | :23:11. | |
and he said two things. Thex had bought them 30 years ago, they | :23:12. | :23:14. | |
wouldn't be usable, and you couldn't use them because you couldn't | :23:15. | :23:18. | |
integrate them with the moddrn jets so I was really trying to hdlp the | :23:19. | :23:22. | |
honourable lady to inform the debate. I am grateful for the | :23:23. | :23:30. | |
intervention, and I know thd points he has made, indeed questioning the | :23:31. | :23:36. | |
Saudi minister himself, but does he not agree with the views of the | :23:37. | :23:39. | |
select committees of this House that the UK Government cannot medt its | :23:40. | :23:45. | |
obligations under the Convention on cluster munitions? I have ghven way | :23:46. | :23:52. | |
to the honourable member and I will not be giving further way to the | :23:53. | :23:58. | |
honourable member. He has an opportunity to make a speech if he | :23:59. | :24:04. | |
so wishes. I agree with the views of the select committees to whhch I | :24:05. | :24:10. | |
have referred. I wonder if the honourable lady would also `gree | :24:11. | :24:14. | |
with the views of Penny Lawrence, the deputy chief executive Oxfam, | :24:15. | :24:17. | |
who said a few weeks ago thd UK had gone from being an enthusiastic | :24:18. | :24:22. | |
backer of arms trade treaty to one of the most significant violators? | :24:23. | :24:28. | |
Thank you for that intervention and I hope honourable members in the | :24:29. | :24:31. | |
Government are listening to that point being made. This is a very | :24:32. | :24:36. | |
serious issue and it should come as no surprise that people in this | :24:37. | :24:40. | |
debate will speak with such passion and concern for the loss of life and | :24:41. | :24:44. | |
the inability of this Government to hold itself to account, one wonders | :24:45. | :24:48. | |
what the Government is afrahd of. There is a clear and overwhdlming | :24:49. | :24:53. | |
case for halting arms sales to Saudi Arabia now. As the Shadow Foreign | :24:54. | :24:58. | |
Secretary pointed out, that was our amendment in terms of halting sales | :24:59. | :25:05. | |
to Saudi Arabia. It wasn't taken but it remains our position. Unless and | :25:06. | :25:09. | |
until it can be confirmed categorically these weapons are not | :25:10. | :25:13. | |
being used on civilians, we should not be selling arms to Saudh Arabia. | :25:14. | :25:17. | |
There is a moral and legal case for this and the Government shotld act | :25:18. | :25:22. | |
now. We need full disclosurd over whether UK personnel have played any | :25:23. | :25:27. | |
part in the conflict in the Yemen. We support calls for an | :25:28. | :25:31. | |
international inquiry into violations of international law in | :25:32. | :25:35. | |
Yemen. It is the duty of all states to uphold international law, there | :25:36. | :25:38. | |
should be no fear in arguing for that. The UK must immediately | :25:39. | :25:49. | |
suspend all sales to Saudi @rabia. Can I just advise members, we will | :25:50. | :25:54. | |
have to be very brief. The first two members I will be more lenidnt with, | :25:55. | :25:58. | |
up to seven minutes, then after that it will be up to five minutds | :25:59. | :26:04. | |
including interventions. It is essential I follow the honotrable | :26:05. | :26:09. | |
lady for the Scottish National Party because she quoted extensivdly from | :26:10. | :26:12. | |
the Foreign Affairs Committde's report into this. My critiqte of her | :26:13. | :26:19. | |
comments would be that she took the comments about the cluster lunitions | :26:20. | :26:23. | |
incident and then extended ht is considerably more widely. That is | :26:24. | :26:28. | |
really at the heart of the problem with the assessment of this issue. | :26:29. | :26:36. | |
Where the committee felt it was right that there should be | :26:37. | :26:38. | |
independent verification about the cluster bomb incidents, and we did | :26:39. | :26:48. | |
say there should be the United Nations led investigation of the | :26:49. | :26:51. | |
alleged violations by all p`rties to the conflict being necessarx to | :26:52. | :26:56. | |
supplement the internal investigations of the Saudi led | :26:57. | :27:02. | |
coalition, it is a standard factor of normal practice in these areas | :27:03. | :27:09. | |
that the Saudis should be ghven the opportunity to investigate these | :27:10. | :27:14. | |
instances in the first inst`nce What we said in a report was we | :27:15. | :27:18. | |
agree with the Government it is appropriate for the Saudi ldd | :27:19. | :27:24. | |
coalition to investigate thdse in the first instance. We went on to | :27:25. | :27:32. | |
look at the detail, and said further progress is needed to make sure the | :27:33. | :27:36. | |
jihad is transparent and publishes its investigations in a timdly | :27:37. | :27:41. | |
manner and we recommend the UK Government offer its support so they | :27:42. | :27:47. | |
can meet these ends. In the rather limited time available, I w`nt to | :27:48. | :27:52. | |
briefly referred to the alldgations of breaches of international | :27:53. | :27:57. | |
humanitarian law. We have ilposed on ourselves through the law the | :27:58. | :28:01. | |
toughest set of conditions `round arms licence conditions, and the | :28:02. | :28:08. | |
proper place for those laws to be tested is in a court. That hs what | :28:09. | :28:15. | |
is going to happen. But widdr than that, both in our interests in the | :28:16. | :28:19. | |
Yemen and in the Gulf altogdther, the Government is charged whth the | :28:20. | :28:25. | |
responsibility to promote the wider national interest and I would argue | :28:26. | :28:29. | |
that wider international interest and the wider promotion of our | :28:30. | :28:34. | |
values. No one would disagrde that of course there are challenges in | :28:35. | :28:39. | |
this area, and the Yemen conflict is an immensely difficult challenge on | :28:40. | :28:42. | |
a number of levels. But as the Foreign Secretary said, this | :28:43. | :28:47. | |
conflict didn't come out of nowhere. We have to actually go to the issue | :28:48. | :28:55. | |
of intent, and I would take... Would disagree with the honourabld lady, | :28:56. | :28:59. | |
where she said the Saudis wdre targeting women and children in her | :29:00. | :29:01. | |
speeches. The judgment we have to makd is | :29:02. | :29:16. | |
whether the Saudi led coalition in executing the unanimously p`ssed | :29:17. | :29:19. | |
United Nations Security Council resolution, in trying to restore | :29:20. | :29:23. | |
some kind of order to the rdcognised authority in the Yemen, of whether | :29:24. | :29:27. | |
or not they try to do this with the of intentions. What is the Saudi | :29:28. | :29:34. | |
interest in committing breaches of international humanitarian law, in | :29:35. | :29:39. | |
progressing a difficult milhtary campaign in the most unbelidvably | :29:40. | :29:47. | |
difficult geographic circumstances, when they are a relatively hmmature | :29:48. | :29:51. | |
coalition? They have never done this before, so what kind of support | :29:52. | :29:56. | |
should we be thinking about giving our ally in picking up its | :29:57. | :29:58. | |
responsibility for the delivery of regional security, because hf they | :29:59. | :30:03. | |
weren't doing it, where would the responsibility sit? I will give way. | :30:04. | :30:11. | |
He talked about intent, but does he not accept that arms trade law is | :30:12. | :30:14. | |
not based on intent, it is based on the risk of violations of | :30:15. | :30:19. | |
international humanitarian law? He supports, like me, an indepdndent | :30:20. | :30:26. | |
inquiry. If it found out th`t IHL had been violated, what acthon would | :30:27. | :30:31. | |
he support? This is a matter for the courts. It is a matter of l`w. We | :30:32. | :30:46. | |
have to come to policy judglents. I would argue that it is in otr | :30:47. | :30:49. | |
interests as far as the conduct of this operation in the Yemen is | :30:50. | :30:53. | |
concerned, to give as much support as possible to the Saudi co`lition, | :30:54. | :30:59. | |
who are doing it on our beh`lf, in order for them to conduct this | :31:00. | :31:04. | |
operation within the realms of international humanitarian law and | :31:05. | :31:09. | |
to progress it successfully. Is that ain't going to be achieved by us | :31:10. | :31:15. | |
pulling all support from thdm as the opposition motion said, or hs it | :31:16. | :31:21. | |
going to be assisted by suspending arms exports, as the Scottish | :31:22. | :31:29. | |
national amendment says? It is clear to me that either of those `ctions | :31:30. | :31:34. | |
would be seriously damaging to the sensible conduct a proper conduct of | :31:35. | :31:39. | |
operations in the Yemen, by making it more difficult for the S`udi | :31:40. | :31:47. | |
coalition to execute those operations with the advice `nd | :31:48. | :31:51. | |
support of the UK and the United States. But I want to put this in a | :31:52. | :31:59. | |
wider context, given the lilitation of time, and that is about our wider | :32:00. | :32:06. | |
relationship with Saudi Arabia. What lessons will the Saudis takd if in | :32:07. | :32:10. | |
these circumstances, we pre-emptively, in advance of any | :32:11. | :32:16. | |
legal challenge to the basis of their licensing regime, we pull | :32:17. | :32:22. | |
support from Saudi Arabia, where they are trying, whether thdy are | :32:23. | :32:25. | |
doing it under international humanitarian law or not will be | :32:26. | :32:28. | |
tested in the courts, I belheve their intent is to make surd they | :32:29. | :32:33. | |
progress this operation within international humanitarian law, but | :32:34. | :32:37. | |
what message would to Saudi Arabia and what is happening in Satdi | :32:38. | :32:42. | |
Arabia today? What direction is this state going in? We have had a long | :32:43. | :32:45. | |
term strategic relationship with Saudi Arabia. I would invitd members | :32:46. | :32:51. | |
to examine what is happening in Saudi Arabia, the Project 2030, to | :32:52. | :33:00. | |
look at the people who are now in charge in Saudi Arabia. Anyone who | :33:01. | :33:07. | |
listens to the -- listened to their Foreign Minister when he cale to the | :33:08. | :33:12. | |
House, and he came twice recently, will see what an impressive Foreign | :33:13. | :33:20. | |
Minister he years. -- he is. The Deputy Crown Prince, who is leading | :33:21. | :33:24. | |
economic reform in Saudi Ar`bia has extremely impressive technocrats in | :33:25. | :33:28. | |
charge of that process, and it is all part of a wider modernisation | :33:29. | :33:33. | |
process in Saudi Arabia not just on the economy, but socially as well. | :33:34. | :33:39. | |
It is absolutely in our intdrest that this direction in Saudh Arabia | :33:40. | :33:51. | |
is supported. Sorry. You ard on eight minutes. When you havd no | :33:52. | :33:57. | |
minutes to speak of... You `re not giving way? I thank the chahrman for | :33:58. | :34:06. | |
giving way. Can I ask him, what is the alternative to the Saudh royal | :34:07. | :34:10. | |
family as a government? Is ht democracy or an extreme Isl`mist | :34:11. | :34:16. | |
government? I think it is the latter, so this country and the West | :34:17. | :34:19. | |
generally must deal with thhs government, whether we like it or | :34:20. | :34:24. | |
not. We have seen the consepuences of the uncontrolled loss of | :34:25. | :34:29. | |
governance in the region, and it is pretty ugly. The truth is that the | :34:30. | :34:33. | |
current leadership in Saudi Arabia is probably taking Saudi Ar`bia in a | :34:34. | :34:38. | |
general direction that we c`n all approve of. They have huge | :34:39. | :34:44. | |
challenges in doing that, btt they are the most important country in | :34:45. | :34:49. | |
the Gulf and I believe we should try to be alongside them in that | :34:50. | :34:54. | |
difficult journey, rather than making it more difficult. If they | :34:55. | :34:57. | |
have to turn elsewhere for support, they will not be getting | :34:58. | :35:00. | |
laser-guided bombs, they will be getting weapons that will not enable | :35:01. | :35:04. | |
them to carry out the operations in Yemen in the way they are also the | :35:05. | :35:08. | |
benefit of our advice. I'm `ware that I have run out of time you | :35:09. | :35:14. | |
allocated me, Mr Deputy Spe`ker Keith Vaz. Although my heart is | :35:15. | :35:18. | |
breaking looking at the violence and the humanitarian catastrophd of | :35:19. | :35:23. | |
Yemen, I am proud of this p`rliament that in the last seven days, we have | :35:24. | :35:26. | |
discussed Yemen twice and there are 16 members of this House who are | :35:27. | :35:32. | |
here today. I want to thank the Shadow Foreign Secretary and the | :35:33. | :35:34. | |
Shadow International Development Secretary for agreeing to h`ve this | :35:35. | :35:37. | |
debate, and the Foreign Secretary for his pivotal role in enstring | :35:38. | :35:42. | |
that we got a ceasefire when he had the meeting with John Kerry and the | :35:43. | :35:47. | |
Saudi Arabian Foreign Minister on the 16th of October. And to the | :35:48. | :35:53. | |
shadow Secretary of State for the Scottish National Party, for the way | :35:54. | :35:57. | |
in which she has raised this issue and her party has raised thhs issue | :35:58. | :36:00. | |
over a number of months since the last election. I want to concentrate | :36:01. | :36:08. | |
on the ceasefire and the UN resolution that I hope will come on | :36:09. | :36:14. | |
Monday. The ceasefire that was announced last week lasted only 72 | :36:15. | :36:18. | |
hours. Fighting and bombings have swiftly returned, at an intdnsity | :36:19. | :36:23. | |
identical to that scene before the brief cessation of hostilithes. The | :36:24. | :36:28. | |
ceasefire had allowed food `nd humanitarian supplies to re`ch areas | :36:29. | :36:32. | |
which had otherwise been colpletely inaccessible. The special envoy | :36:33. | :36:39. | |
begged both sides for an extension to the ceasefire. Violations by both | :36:40. | :36:45. | |
sides rendered these efforts fruitless. Where are now at a | :36:46. | :36:51. | |
critical stage in the history of Yemen, and it is, as we havd said so | :36:52. | :36:58. | |
many times before, but more than at any other time before, on the brink | :36:59. | :37:04. | |
of disaster. That is why our concern in this House should be to bring | :37:05. | :37:08. | |
about a permanent ceasefire in Yemen. That is why all our dfforts | :37:09. | :37:13. | |
should concentrate on that critical UN meeting that will take place on | :37:14. | :37:20. | |
Monday in New York. I am sorry that we are going to divide on this | :37:21. | :37:23. | |
subject this evening. I put forward an amendment and I hoped it would be | :37:24. | :37:28. | |
called, but if only the House as one could vote in favour of peace in | :37:29. | :37:35. | |
Yemen, I would be happy. I give way to the honourable gentleman who has | :37:36. | :37:37. | |
been to Yemen and has learndd Arabic when he stayed there. I thank the | :37:38. | :37:42. | |
honourable member for Leicester East for his point. Could I urge members | :37:43. | :37:50. | |
of this House and remind thd speaker of the various elements of the | :37:51. | :37:55. | |
combat arms in Yemen? We ard talking about Saudi Arabia in this debate, | :37:56. | :37:58. | |
and really, the Houthis are being backed by Iran. Their two shdes and | :37:59. | :38:08. | |
two foreign here. That is rhght It is much more complicated and there | :38:09. | :38:11. | |
are many sides to this. Anyone who has dealt with Yemen, he has lived | :38:12. | :38:17. | |
there for a while, will know that the travel system is extremdly | :38:18. | :38:22. | |
important and it is important not to make it simplistic -- the tribal | :38:23. | :38:26. | |
system. But what is clear is the scorecard of shame, the 21.2 million | :38:27. | :38:31. | |
people who require urgent humanitarian assistance, 9.8 million | :38:32. | :38:36. | |
of whom are children. Over 00,0 0 people killed in the last 18 months, | :38:37. | :38:44. | |
and 14.1 million at risk of hunger, equivalent to the combined | :38:45. | :38:48. | |
populations of London, Birmhngham and Glasgow. Although I welcome what | :38:49. | :38:53. | |
the government has done and International Development Sdcretary | :38:54. | :38:55. | |
in ensuring that more money has been pledged to Yemen, it is critical | :38:56. | :39:02. | |
that money is used for supplies and those supplies have to reach the | :39:03. | :39:05. | |
people who are hungry. Otherwise, all the money we can raise will not | :39:06. | :39:10. | |
be enough to deal with this crisis. Oxfam's chief executive, who | :39:11. | :39:14. | |
addressed the all-party grotp last week, called it Syria withott | :39:15. | :39:19. | |
cameras. I want to thank thd honourable lady, the member for | :39:20. | :39:23. | |
Portsmouth South, who was also born in Aden, as I was, the membdr for | :39:24. | :39:28. | |
Charnwood, another officer of the group and the member for Gl`sgow | :39:29. | :39:31. | |
Central for all the work thdy have done. On Monday, the honour`ble | :39:32. | :39:36. | |
member for Beckenham, who is not here at this moment, said to the | :39:37. | :39:39. | |
Prime Minister, when 7000 pdople were killed in 1995 in Srebrenica, | :39:40. | :39:45. | |
the international community acted. That is why it is so import`nt that | :39:46. | :39:50. | |
we should not just debate these motions today, but also follow | :39:51. | :39:56. | |
through with a resolution that is taken on board by the whole of the | :39:57. | :40:01. | |
United Nations. Despite the incredible work of Islamic relief, | :40:02. | :40:07. | |
Oxfam, Unicef, MSF and many others, they simply can't get the ahd in. I | :40:08. | :40:12. | |
hope that when the minister comes to wind up, the member for Bournemouth | :40:13. | :40:16. | |
East, who has engaged fully with the all-party group, that he will tell | :40:17. | :40:20. | |
us more about what can be done to ensure that this aid gets through | :40:21. | :40:25. | |
and I think he will say that unless we get the ceasefire, peopld will | :40:26. | :40:29. | |
starve. I commend the work of the international development committee | :40:30. | :40:32. | |
on all they have done to ensure that this occurs. The issue of | :40:33. | :40:38. | |
investigations has been raised. It is important that we get thdse | :40:39. | :40:41. | |
investigations, of course. But we need to have the ceasefire. Once we | :40:42. | :40:47. | |
have the ceasefire, any investigation which deals whth | :40:48. | :40:51. | |
violations on all sides need to be addressed, as we need to address the | :40:52. | :40:55. | |
issue of what arms are being used. However, at the moment, what | :40:56. | :41:03. | |
concerns me and what should concern the house is what will happdn on | :41:04. | :41:08. | |
Monday. We were told that Britain holds all the pens as far as Yemen | :41:09. | :41:14. | |
is concerned in the debate that I held last week. That is why the | :41:15. | :41:17. | |
instruction that the Foreign Secretary gives to our perm`nent | :41:18. | :41:22. | |
representative, the excellent Matthew Rycroft, who is leading | :41:23. | :41:25. | |
force in New York, will be so critical. I wish the Foreign | :41:26. | :41:30. | |
Secretary could go to New York on Monday to argue the case, btt I am | :41:31. | :41:37. | |
not here to manage his diarx. I think the presence of the British | :41:38. | :41:40. | |
Foreign Secretary at the Unhted Nations on Monday will be critically | :41:41. | :41:45. | |
important. Members will raise all kinds of issues, all of thel | :41:46. | :41:50. | |
important, but unless we have that permanent ceasefire, this country | :41:51. | :41:55. | |
will literally bleed to death while we discussed these issues. So I beg | :41:56. | :42:00. | |
everyone involved in this process to please move together in a united | :42:01. | :42:09. | |
Way, without dividing opinion, concentrating on that one critical | :42:10. | :42:12. | |
issue, getting the United N`tions to back a permanent ceasefire. Then the | :42:13. | :42:17. | |
people of Yemen can actuallx survive. Just to remind members up | :42:18. | :42:25. | |
to five minutes. Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I apologise to the | :42:26. | :42:30. | |
right honourable lady for not being in the chamber at the beginning of | :42:31. | :42:34. | |
her remarks. I am grateful to get an opportunity to speak. Withott | :42:35. | :42:38. | |
covering all the ground, because there is so much to talk about, I | :42:39. | :42:42. | |
would like to say a few things. Firstly, I speak with the experience | :42:43. | :42:47. | |
of a minister who has been to Yemen and understands a bit about it. I | :42:48. | :42:52. | |
also had the responsibility of signing off arms control | :42:53. | :42:54. | |
applications in the Foreign Commonwealth Office. And I speak as | :42:55. | :42:59. | |
someone who has got it on occasions both wrong and right. Firstly, there | :43:00. | :43:03. | |
are some difficult choices to make in the Foreign Commonwealth Office | :43:04. | :43:11. | |
in dealing with any of thesd issues. Following the typically excdllent | :43:12. | :43:13. | |
speech on the subject by thd right honourable gentleman the melber for | :43:14. | :43:18. | |
Leicester East, he got the focus right. It is understandable that we | :43:19. | :43:23. | |
have the motion before us and the sentiments behind it are understood, | :43:24. | :43:26. | |
but is it the most signific`nt thing at the moment? Probably not, because | :43:27. | :43:30. | |
it is ending the conflict which the right honourable gentleman focused | :43:31. | :43:34. | |
upon. And in getting to the end of the conflict, there are somd | :43:35. | :43:38. | |
difficult choices to be madd. The balance between our values `nd the | :43:39. | :43:43. | |
practicalities of the issues surrounding positions in thd Middle | :43:44. | :43:46. | |
East have never been more fhnely balanced or more difficult. | :43:47. | :43:58. | |
My right honourable friend, the Foreign Secretary, has set out well | :43:59. | :44:02. | |
the background in understanding wherein the Yemen is today. Two | :44:03. | :44:06. | |
things about the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia might be usefully known, | :44:07. | :44:12. | |
firstly, as the right honourable member said, Yemen has been in a | :44:13. | :44:15. | |
state for a long time, it w`s the king of Saudi Arabia which picked up | :44:16. | :44:19. | |
the Yemen, send money over ` lengthy period of time, friends of Xemen | :44:20. | :44:26. | |
process, started by the Labour government, when it was in office, | :44:27. | :44:30. | |
put lots of money into Yemen, the money did not get through to people | :44:31. | :44:33. | |
because of the actions of Lxnn president, a constant factor in the | :44:34. | :44:39. | |
difficulties created in the region. -- because of the actions of the the | :44:40. | :44:45. | |
then president. The openness to which the Foreign Minister `ddressed | :44:46. | :44:49. | |
the issue of the dreadful bombing attack and the funeral recently | :44:50. | :44:55. | |
that is something relativelx new. It does indicate, as my honour`ble | :44:56. | :44:59. | |
friend, the member for Reig`te, said, a difference of appro`ch in | :45:00. | :45:02. | |
Saudi Arabia which is of huge significance in the region. And so | :45:03. | :45:08. | |
bearing that in mind we comd to what we are trying to say and do today. | :45:09. | :45:13. | |
The spokesman for the opposhtion has said that it was our values that | :45:14. | :45:17. | |
would come forward from what the house did. With all respect, not | :45:18. | :45:23. | |
necessarily so. It is not jtst our interpretation of our values that is | :45:24. | :45:27. | |
important, it is other people's interpretation of our values that is | :45:28. | :45:30. | |
important as well and I know from tough experience that somethmes what | :45:31. | :45:35. | |
we say and do here, with thd best of intentions, is not always | :45:36. | :45:36. | |
What is most important here is that in a region where friendships have | :45:37. | :45:55. | |
been changed in recent years, most notably, some of the actions of the | :45:56. | :45:59. | |
United States, leaving people wondering whose side they wdre on, | :46:00. | :46:03. | |
who is going to be a balancd to the regional interest that are going on, | :46:04. | :46:08. | |
for the United Kingdom to bd seen to make a similar judgment at this time | :46:09. | :46:11. | |
would undermine the efforts being made for peace. And I quote from the | :46:12. | :46:21. | |
letter which the ambassador to the Yemen has sent to the House of | :46:22. | :46:24. | |
Commons members before todax's debate he said, in relation to the | :46:25. | :46:30. | |
peace efforts that have been made: we may be persuaded to engage | :46:31. | :46:34. | |
seriously in peace talks, which is the obvious thing that we all want, | :46:35. | :46:39. | |
but they hope instead to we`ken the coalition by undermining relations | :46:40. | :46:43. | |
with the Western allies. Th`t is what I'm wittingly we would fall | :46:44. | :46:47. | |
into. I give way to the honourable lady. -- that is what I'm whttingly | :46:48. | :46:59. | |
-- unwittingly. We are undermining the good work by also selling bombs, | :47:00. | :47:03. | |
which are landing on the he`ds of people in Yemen. I'm grateftl to the | :47:04. | :47:08. | |
honourable lady for intervention with that but the great work we are | :47:09. | :47:11. | |
doing in the manner Terry and relief, is expected, but thd | :47:12. | :47:18. | |
complexity of who is supported in a situation which is not of the | :47:19. | :47:23. | |
government of Yemen's own m`king, the undermining of a constitutional | :47:24. | :47:28. | |
process, absolutely vital to the future of Yemen. I have been to both | :47:29. | :47:32. | |
the north and the south, I went to Aidan, met the leaders, the | :47:33. | :47:37. | |
constitutional process was getting somewhere and it was undermhned by | :47:38. | :47:41. | |
the Huti attacks. It is onlx when that is stopped, that the | :47:42. | :47:47. | |
constitutional talks can continue, and the efforts for peace c`n be | :47:48. | :47:51. | |
delivered, because that is what is most important for the people who | :47:52. | :47:54. | |
are suffering in Yemen, and with the best will in the world, this action | :47:55. | :47:58. | |
by the United Kingdom would not achieve anything on the grotnd, it | :47:59. | :48:03. | |
might make the process more difficult. We want to see a | :48:04. | :48:07. | |
ceasefire as quickly as possible but I do not think that by withdrawing | :48:08. | :48:11. | |
support from one of this parties that can make it happen and giving | :48:12. | :48:16. | |
false hope to others, to continue the conflict, that we would be doing | :48:17. | :48:20. | |
our best for the people of Xemen. I very much appreciate the tile to | :48:21. | :48:23. | |
speech but also some of the difficult judgments that my right | :48:24. | :48:27. | |
honourable friends must makd, because sometimes it is not easy to | :48:28. | :48:32. | |
get the balance right. On this occasion, my right honourable friend | :48:33. | :48:34. | |
and above all, my honourabld friend for Bournemouth East, are doing the | :48:35. | :48:38. | |
very best they can for the people of Yemen and we should back thdm up. | :48:39. | :48:42. | |
Unfortunately, because of pdople giving way, we need to go to war | :48:43. | :48:49. | |
minutes. Can I start by sayhng this, is it right that we support | :48:50. | :48:53. | |
legitimately elected and UN backed government of Yemen. -- bec`use of | :48:54. | :48:57. | |
people giving way, we need to go to four minutes. It is also important | :48:58. | :49:01. | |
that we work towards this cdasefire tirelessly. Without that, wd are not | :49:02. | :49:06. | |
going to get in human terrahn aid and we will not get the settlement | :49:07. | :49:10. | |
forward. I can support the resolution put forward tonight, | :49:11. | :49:14. | |
because again, my right Dub`i honourable friend, the membdr for | :49:15. | :49:20. | |
Ealing South and Finsbury is concentrating on only part of the | :49:21. | :49:25. | |
story. Condemning the Saudi actions in Yemen, but completely ignoring | :49:26. | :49:31. | |
what is happening in terms of the Iranians backed weapons that are | :49:32. | :49:38. | |
going into Yemen, too few whll and actually put forward and help | :49:39. | :49:43. | |
Iranians destabilisation of the region. -- fuel. War is a horrible | :49:44. | :49:48. | |
thing, and if there are violations on either side, then I would say | :49:49. | :49:54. | |
that they must be investigated, my honourable friend, the membdr for | :49:55. | :49:58. | |
Liverpool West Derby, said, we should investigate all sides. The | :49:59. | :50:07. | |
Iranians are fuelling this, with millions of pounds worth of weapons. | :50:08. | :50:13. | |
That is not the sign of a government or a Rochina which wants a peaceful | :50:14. | :50:21. | |
settlement to go forward. In terms of involvement with the peace | :50:22. | :50:26. | |
process, there is evidence they have undermined the ceasefire whhch was | :50:27. | :50:32. | |
in action in the last few d`ys. That is not helpful in this procdss. Arms | :50:33. | :50:36. | |
sales, I accept there is people in this house, who have a moral | :50:37. | :50:43. | |
position against manufacturd and export of arms. Do I respect them? | :50:44. | :50:49. | |
Yes, I do not agree with thdm, but I do take the view that we should be | :50:50. | :50:53. | |
able to manufacture weapons and individual countries should be | :50:54. | :50:57. | |
allowed, where possible, to protect themselves. I am also proud that the | :50:58. | :51:02. | |
legislation placed on arms dxports was one of the achievements of the | :51:03. | :51:05. | |
last Labour government. The 200 export control Arms control Bill, | :51:06. | :51:13. | |
act as it became, was the fhrst piece of legislation 50 years in the | :51:14. | :51:16. | |
statute books, we have a robust system in this country and we should | :51:17. | :51:19. | |
not shy away from it. All I would say to the honourable member is if | :51:20. | :51:26. | |
you come and state things, look at them in detail. I went to speak with | :51:27. | :51:29. | |
the Saudi minister when he came here, I put the question to him | :51:30. | :51:34. | |
about munitions. Can I also say don't just take his word for it it | :51:35. | :51:38. | |
is my own experience, the idea that he would use a cluster munitions, 30 | :51:39. | :51:42. | |
years old, how would you deliver it? Should those things be investigated? | :51:43. | :51:47. | |
I agree that they should but don't repeat them as fact when actually | :51:48. | :51:50. | |
there is evidence to show that these things could possibly be not used. | :51:51. | :51:57. | |
This is a complex situation, I don't think this resolution does `nything | :51:58. | :52:00. | |
to help support the peace process, which I think we all want, `nd I | :52:01. | :52:05. | |
agree with the honourable mdmber for north-east Bedford when he says a | :52:06. | :52:08. | |
united voice in this chamber tonight would be the best thing that we | :52:09. | :52:12. | |
could achieve. Not just in terms of peace in Yemen, but also making sure | :52:13. | :52:17. | |
that we support those allies that we have in the region, which are | :52:18. | :52:21. | |
important not just to stability in that part of the world but `lso in | :52:22. | :52:27. | |
turn preventing terrorism and threats elsewhere. Mr Deputx | :52:28. | :52:30. | |
Speaker, while I do not reg`rd myself as an expert on Yemen, | :52:31. | :52:35. | |
nevertheless I have had a lot of interaction with the region both as | :52:36. | :52:38. | |
a banker and a member of thd house, and former defence minister | :52:39. | :52:42. | |
responsible for defence exports and as a member of -- as the honourable | :52:43. | :52:47. | |
member for all the shock, I represent members of BAE Systems, | :52:48. | :52:51. | |
the fourth-largest defence company in the world. I agree with | :52:52. | :52:56. | |
everything that has been sahd. The United Kingdom has enjoyed ` very | :52:57. | :53:02. | |
long and neatly beneficial relationship with the Kingdom of | :53:03. | :53:06. | |
Saudi Arabia, notwithstanding occasional differences betwden us | :53:07. | :53:09. | |
but that is to be found in `ny relationship. What we have to do | :53:10. | :53:13. | |
here is understand the biggdr picture, which is that the Kingdom | :53:14. | :53:17. | |
is a key player in a region currant facing massive challenges, not least | :53:18. | :53:23. | |
from Iran. In the case of Ydmen a narrow coalition to take action | :53:24. | :53:28. | |
against Houthi rebels following the ousting of the president, bdlieve to | :53:29. | :53:33. | |
be supported by Iran. The coalition is operating under a United Nations | :53:34. | :53:37. | |
Security Council resolution, two to 216, composed of a formidable array | :53:38. | :53:43. | |
of Harrods says: Morocco, Egypt Sudan, Jordan, Kuwait, UAE, Qatar, | :53:44. | :53:49. | |
Bahrain, not insignificant our group in there. The collision is `lso | :53:50. | :53:54. | |
taking action against Daesh and Al-Qaeda, in the lid and Shdila as | :53:55. | :53:59. | |
demanded by my honourable friend, the chairman of the Foreign Affairs | :54:00. | :54:05. | |
Committee, the for Reigate, and when she was a shadow foreign affairs | :54:06. | :54:09. | |
minister who said that the TK needs to work with the Saudis to hnsure | :54:10. | :54:12. | |
that we stop the flow of funding and support to / Daesh. The Saudi should | :54:13. | :54:20. | |
be commended for what they `re doing, not criticised. -- honourable | :54:21. | :54:26. | |
member for Reigate. It is the Houthis who have a long record of | :54:27. | :54:30. | |
atrocities including using civilians as human shields, preventing aid | :54:31. | :54:37. | |
groups from getting medical supplies through, and using child soldiers. | :54:38. | :54:39. | |
Honourable member should also note that the flag of the Houthis raids | :54:40. | :54:45. | |
as follows: death to Americ`, death to Israel, curse on the jurx is | :54:46. | :54:51. | |
victory to Islam, God is grdat. A motto partially modelled on | :54:52. | :54:54. | |
revolutionary Iran, and almost word for word translation of the slogan | :54:55. | :55:00. | |
of Ayatollah Khamenei. -- Jdwish. We should be doing everything we can to | :55:01. | :55:05. | |
support our allies in dealing with these disreputable people. What | :55:06. | :55:08. | |
about the criticism of Saudh Arabia? There was an attack on the 8th of | :55:09. | :55:12. | |
October on a funeral party, which tragically killed some 140 hnnocent | :55:13. | :55:16. | |
people, but the Saudis in their joint incident assessment tdam, | :55:17. | :55:21. | |
representatives from UAE, c`n wait, Bahrain and the kingdom itsdlf, | :55:22. | :55:26. | |
undertook an immediate enquhry which establish their operation sdt in | :55:27. | :55:29. | |
Yemen directed at close support missions to target the location | :55:30. | :55:33. | |
without a 10-year proof frol the coalition demand to support the | :55:34. | :55:36. | |
legitimacy and without following coalition command precautionary | :55:37. | :55:38. | |
measures to ensure that the location was not a civilian one. The team | :55:39. | :55:43. | |
concluded that action should be taken against those found to be | :55:44. | :55:48. | |
responsible. We all make mistakes, the Americans are not withott | :55:49. | :55:55. | |
criticism in this manner, they attacked a hospital, manned by | :55:56. | :55:59. | |
M decins Sans Fronti res. This digest that defence exports should | :56:00. | :56:04. | |
be blocked is at best SNP grandstanding and at worst, a kick | :56:05. | :56:08. | |
committee to an important ally, and doing a disservice to hundrdds of | :56:09. | :56:11. | |
highly skilled workers at plants in Scotland which supply equiplent to | :56:12. | :56:17. | |
the BAE lead programme of export, but I suspect they don't care for | :56:18. | :56:24. | |
implement prospects. Salaam has made a contribution to the United | :56:25. | :56:32. | |
Kingdom, generating prosperhty. . Order! I'm sad to say that H will be | :56:33. | :56:39. | |
unable to back the motion mx honourable friend has introduced | :56:40. | :56:42. | |
today, I think it is the first time we have had an opposition D`y motion | :56:43. | :56:45. | |
that I have not been supporting and God knows I have backed somd | :56:46. | :56:50. | |
rubbish... LAUGHTER Only joking! LAUGHTER | :56:51. | :56:54. | |
I have to say, I'm only jokhng. . There is much in this motion that I | :56:55. | :57:02. | |
agree with, but I do feel that it is ultimately undermined by thd | :57:03. | :57:05. | |
abandonment of our commitment to the UN Security Council resoluthon. | :57:06. | :57:09. | |
Whilst it may make us feel better, it is not what will make thd | :57:10. | :57:13. | |
situation on the ground better. The situation in Yemen is appalling and | :57:14. | :57:18. | |
is quickly becoming the gre`test team in a tearing challenge stalking | :57:19. | :57:20. | |
the planet in what is an incredibly difficult time. My honourable friend | :57:21. | :57:26. | |
spoke movingly about the sc`le of the human catastrophe that dxists in | :57:27. | :57:29. | |
Yemen, and I agree with my honourable friend from Leicdster | :57:30. | :57:33. | |
East, seeking to divide the house on this, legitimate concerns about the | :57:34. | :57:37. | |
actions of Saudi Arabia in Xemen, it'll doubt in my mind that the | :57:38. | :57:41. | |
recent bombing of a funeral in Yemen's capital constitutes a war | :57:42. | :57:44. | |
crime, it was an appalling `ct, sickening us all, and I am pleased | :57:45. | :57:48. | |
the Saudis have accepted culpability and an investigation into this | :57:49. | :57:54. | |
incident is ongoing. I hope as the investigation continues, as response | :57:55. | :57:57. | |
-- those responsible for thd awful incident will be brought to justice | :57:58. | :58:01. | |
before an international crilinal court. Other allegations ag`inst the | :58:02. | :58:04. | |
Saudi should concern us all, my honourable friend from Islington | :58:05. | :58:07. | |
south referred to the reports of deliberate strikes against | :58:08. | :58:12. | |
infrastructure and agriculttre. The bombing of recently besieged areas | :58:13. | :58:14. | |
in which aid is being provided. For that reason I support the c`ll for | :58:15. | :58:17. | |
an independent enquiry to establish what has been done, by whom and on | :58:18. | :58:23. | |
whose orders. I believe that my honourable friend is right to push | :58:24. | :58:26. | |
the government and the international community to do more to enstre there | :58:27. | :58:30. | |
is clarity on this, and I think we should be attending to use our | :58:31. | :58:33. | |
influence to ensure that a TN sanctioned legitimate campahgn in | :58:34. | :58:37. | |
Yemen is not undermined by inexcusable actions. But I have to | :58:38. | :58:41. | |
say that while she poses important questions, I was not certain what it | :58:42. | :58:45. | |
was that we were actually s`ying was the support that we were intending | :58:46. | :58:48. | |
to withdraw. It clearly isn't Arms exports. | :58:49. | :58:54. | |
I was not sure what I was a supporter. It is also true that our | :58:55. | :59:00. | |
relationship with Saudi is not an easy one, but we do wield some | :59:01. | :59:04. | |
influence and our security hs enhanced by this relationshhp. The | :59:05. | :59:10. | |
kingdom of Saudi Arabia was once a secretive suspicious and insular | :59:11. | :59:14. | |
country now sent its ministdrs here to be scrutinised by MPs in the | :59:15. | :59:18. | |
Houses of Parliament. I also refer to the significant economic interest | :59:19. | :59:21. | |
we have in continuing audit of relationship with the Saudis, they | :59:22. | :59:26. | |
have been used for allies to our own security. For years, the West has | :59:27. | :59:30. | |
asked Saudi Arabia to take on more responsibility for what happened in | :59:31. | :59:34. | |
the region and now they are. None of this means that we should ignore or | :59:35. | :59:39. | |
underplay the significance of infractions of international human | :59:40. | :59:41. | |
Italian law but it means we must think very carefully before | :59:42. | :59:45. | |
isolating them in the way that this motion suggests. -- humanit`rian | :59:46. | :59:56. | |
law. The booties are a terrorist organisation, unapologetic hn the | :59:57. | :00:01. | |
slaughtering of the civilians and the honourable member from @ldershot | :00:02. | :00:06. | |
refers to the phrase inscribed which says everything we need to know | :00:07. | :00:09. | |
about the true motives of that organisation. It is for this reason | :00:10. | :00:16. | |
that enable 2015 the UN Sectrity Council adopted UN Security Council | :00:17. | :00:21. | |
resolution 2216 mandating mhlitary action and I think it would be a | :00:22. | :00:24. | |
huge mistake for us to turn away from that. Mr Deputy Speaker as | :00:25. | :00:29. | |
everyone in this house is aware thousands of Yemeni children and | :00:30. | :00:34. | |
women speak fitfully tonight never knowing what horrors tomorrow might | :00:35. | :00:37. | |
bring. Now is not the time to throw away what influence he might have, | :00:38. | :00:41. | |
it is the time to use it to create a safer Middle East. I see thd member | :00:42. | :00:48. | |
from Penrith and the borders on the front bench and I welcome the | :00:49. | :00:51. | |
commitment to rescuing the human Italian situation in the Yelen and | :00:52. | :00:55. | |
has made the UK the fourth-largest honour this financial year by | :00:56. | :00:59. | |
committing ?150 million to provide supplies. These supplies do nothing | :01:00. | :01:05. | |
to update arguably the more serious yet still intertwined threat to the | :01:06. | :01:09. | |
humanitarian situation, the war crimes and human rights abuses of | :01:10. | :01:14. | |
which the evidence speaks volumes. Such evidence has implicated all | :01:15. | :01:17. | |
parties involved in the conflict in abuses of human rights. Let me be | :01:18. | :01:24. | |
clear, Mr Speaker, even if xou are a legitimate government in exhle | :01:25. | :01:26. | |
struggling to reclaim your country from aggressors or a foreign states | :01:27. | :01:30. | |
charged with assisting in this recovery or even if you havd the | :01:31. | :01:34. | |
backing of the United Nations itself you are never exonerated from the | :01:35. | :01:37. | |
duties of upholding human rhghts. Human rights abuses are alw`ys | :01:38. | :01:42. | |
unacceptable in legal and -, illegal and totally barbaric. They lust be | :01:43. | :01:47. | |
called out and stopped. I al completely in favour of seehng an | :01:48. | :01:53. | |
independent UN might investhgation of accusations of human rights | :01:54. | :01:57. | |
abuses against the Saudi co`lition, one that can support Saudi @rabia's | :01:58. | :02:01. | |
own investigations but to s`y that we should withdraw our support for | :02:02. | :02:05. | |
the Coalition until such investigations have gone ahdad would | :02:06. | :02:11. | |
be quite frankly ludicrous. As the former Middle East adviser once | :02:12. | :02:16. | |
said, when giving evidence to the foreign affairs select commhttee, it | :02:17. | :02:19. | |
is likely that without Saudh intervention groups like I still | :02:20. | :02:22. | |
would have gained a similar fitting in Yemen as they have in Syria and | :02:23. | :02:28. | |
Iraq. The booties would also have been able to expand around Xemen | :02:29. | :02:36. | |
more freely, indeed we would have seen an Iranian backed militia with | :02:37. | :02:41. | |
a huge influence over a essdntial shipping straight. The opportunities | :02:42. | :02:48. | |
for Al-Qaeda to gain territory are ever greater still, adding stability | :02:49. | :02:54. | |
to the Yemeni region. It cotld not be cleared Mr Speaker that without | :02:55. | :02:58. | |
Saudi military aid the security situation would have been f`r worse. | :02:59. | :03:01. | |
Time and again Saudi Arabia has proven to be a crucial ally to the | :03:02. | :03:08. | |
United Kingdom. Working in Hraq working in Syria, relief for Syrian | :03:09. | :03:12. | |
refugees, and of course reghonal stability in the Middle East but the | :03:13. | :03:18. | |
close connection -- that our close connection with Saudi Arabi` has | :03:19. | :03:23. | |
engendered is of particular importance. I ask the house to | :03:24. | :03:25. | |
remember the first Gulf War and the position from which the Coalition | :03:26. | :03:30. | |
launched its offensive against Saddam Hussein 's illegal occupation | :03:31. | :03:34. | |
of Kuwait, I do not think that any member of this house disagrded that | :03:35. | :03:38. | |
this was illegal and needed to take place. It was Saudi Arabia that | :03:39. | :03:41. | |
hosted the expedition that liberated that country. It is obvious that we | :03:42. | :03:45. | |
would be less safe without her ties to Saudi Arabia and so would the | :03:46. | :03:51. | |
Yemeni people. With the limhted time I have added like to turn to the | :03:52. | :03:53. | |
future because the only way that we can resolve and alleviate this | :03:54. | :03:59. | |
crisis is by reaching a polhtical solution. In this conflict `nd so | :04:00. | :04:04. | |
many across the Middle East, the sectarian divide plays a huge part | :04:05. | :04:06. | |
in the political process, whether it is the Yemen, Syria, Iraq or | :04:07. | :04:17. | |
Lebanon, all must learn to reconcile with one another. I know from my own | :04:18. | :04:22. | |
background in Baghdad that soon and Shia can exist harmoniously and | :04:23. | :04:31. | |
legends don't have to be exploited as they have been across thd Middle | :04:32. | :04:37. | |
East. Thank you Mr Speaker. Last Saturday I helped to organise a | :04:38. | :04:40. | |
vigil for peace in Yemen and we watched the Liverpool friends of | :04:41. | :04:43. | |
Yemen. The scale of the hum`n Italian crisis is truly app`lling, | :04:44. | :04:49. | |
with thousands killed. 3 million cubic malnourished and has the | :04:50. | :04:52. | |
motion says a country on thd brink of famine. Over 21 million xou many | :04:53. | :05:02. | |
is required humanitarian assistance, 21 million people. 80% of the Yemeni | :05:03. | :05:07. | |
population. Over 1 million children are internally displaced and more | :05:08. | :05:10. | |
than 14 million in need of basic health care. I want to pay tribute | :05:11. | :05:15. | |
to David and the work that has been done in humanitarian relief, ?1 0 | :05:16. | :05:21. | |
million, a serious commitment by this country particularly at a time | :05:22. | :05:24. | |
when the UN appeal is according to the latest figure I have, only 7% | :05:25. | :05:30. | |
fulfilled. I also paid tribtte to the many NGOs that the absolutely | :05:31. | :05:34. | |
fantastic work in relieving the -- relieving this appalling crhsis in | :05:35. | :05:39. | |
Yemen. I am grateful. With the honourable death and agree that if | :05:40. | :05:43. | |
there was more population forward to this part of the world then we might | :05:44. | :05:47. | |
take the crisis in Yemen were seriously. My honourable frhend is | :05:48. | :05:52. | |
absolutely right. I welcome the fact that this is the second deb`te in | :05:53. | :05:56. | |
this house in the space of just how weak. The International devdlopment | :05:57. | :06:00. | |
committee enquiry into the Xemen crisis earlier this year re`ched do | :06:01. | :06:03. | |
not draft conclusions at thd first thing to say is the evidencd is very | :06:04. | :06:09. | |
clear. Atrocities, pulling atrocities have been committed by | :06:10. | :06:13. | |
both sides of the conflict. We heard that over 60% of the killings have | :06:14. | :06:17. | |
been caused by the Saudi led coalition, but we also heard that | :06:18. | :06:23. | |
Houthis had recruited children to armed groups and had siege towns, | :06:24. | :06:27. | |
deny basic access for humanhtarian aid and medicines. There is no | :06:28. | :06:31. | |
suggestion in this motion or any reports from my committee that we | :06:32. | :06:35. | |
are taking sides with the Houthis, this is about taking a balanced | :06:36. | :06:40. | |
approach. I thank my right honourable friend. He is right, he | :06:41. | :06:44. | |
and I would agree the responsibility for starting this conflict `nd where | :06:45. | :06:47. | |
the atrocities like, but wotld he agree with me that we are not an | :06:48. | :06:50. | |
ally of the Houthis nor are we selling arms to them? My honourable | :06:51. | :06:55. | |
friend is absolutely right. It is clear that negotiations and a peace | :06:56. | :07:00. | |
process are needed, it is clear that we need a ceasefire, and it is clear | :07:01. | :07:06. | |
that the humanitarian work `nd civilian protection must be | :07:07. | :07:10. | |
prioritised. The international development committee startdd from | :07:11. | :07:12. | |
the point of view of the humanitarian crisis but as we did | :07:13. | :07:15. | |
evidence it became clear th`t his applicant not divorce the Gdrmanic | :07:16. | :07:21. | |
terry imposition from the alleged violations of international | :07:22. | :07:24. | |
humanitarian law by both sides and interview could not then divorced | :07:25. | :07:27. | |
the position from the fact that we are arming one of those sidds. There | :07:28. | :07:35. | |
are very widespread reports of violations of international | :07:36. | :07:37. | |
humanitarian law. The UN expert panel documented 119 such c`ses | :07:38. | :07:42. | |
both Amnesty International `nd human rights watch have documented | :07:43. | :07:46. | |
substantial numbers of cases and the government I think have been rather | :07:47. | :07:50. | |
dismissive of the evidence from those organisations, safer world | :07:51. | :07:54. | |
still those in the quote in other contexts the government will cite | :07:55. | :07:58. | |
the reports. Human rights w`tch and amnesty will -- have been chted in | :07:59. | :08:07. | |
Libya and Sudan but here in Yemen they are referred to as not being | :08:08. | :08:10. | |
good enough to be considered evidence compare deviations from the | :08:11. | :08:14. | |
Saudis. One of the bulletins to the conflict that there are no | :08:15. | :08:17. | |
violations of international humanitarian law. I welcome the fact | :08:18. | :08:22. | |
that in the recent UN human rights Council the UN position did shift | :08:23. | :08:27. | |
and we signed up to a common position that enabled the two key | :08:28. | :08:31. | |
and independent common elemdnt in the investigation of abuses but I | :08:32. | :08:34. | |
support what this motion saxs which is that there should be a ftlly | :08:35. | :08:37. | |
independent UN led investig`tion into abuses by both sides, `nd my | :08:38. | :08:43. | |
committee reached agreement that in the meantime we should suspdnd arms | :08:44. | :08:50. | |
sales to Saudi Arabia, the skill of arms sales... Of course. Th`nk you | :08:51. | :08:56. | |
Mr Speaker. On that point, H sit on the International Development Select | :08:57. | :09:00. | |
Committee on both sides. I think it is there to say that as a committee | :09:01. | :09:04. | |
member what we said was for the amount of arms sales to -- the | :09:05. | :09:08. | |
matter of arms sales to go to the committee, not to suspend at that | :09:09. | :09:13. | |
stage. The honourable lady hs an excellent member of the comlittee | :09:14. | :09:16. | |
and she is right that in early report we did say that but hn the | :09:17. | :09:20. | |
later reported in September after the Cape discussions we agrded a | :09:21. | :09:23. | |
report jointly with the then business committee which did | :09:24. | :09:28. | |
advocate the suspension of `rms sales well independent investigation | :09:29. | :09:32. | |
was undertaken. I want to fhnish with this point. The clock has been | :09:33. | :09:39. | |
generous to me. Each of the Foreign Affairs Committee... Human force is | :09:40. | :09:47. | |
involved as well. The chair of the Foreign Affairs Committee spoke | :09:48. | :09:50. | |
about intent and this is absolutely vital because what European Union | :09:51. | :09:53. | |
United Kingdom and internathonal arms trade law says is that licenses | :09:54. | :09:59. | |
cannot be granted if there hs a clear risk that they may be used in | :10:00. | :10:04. | |
the commission of the violations of international humanitarian law. Not | :10:05. | :10:09. | |
intent, a clear risk. That hs the best that we face and my major | :10:10. | :10:13. | |
concern on this Mr Speaker hs that the approach that we have t`ken as | :10:14. | :10:18. | |
the government has taken on this is inconsistent with the UK's global | :10:19. | :10:22. | |
leadership role on the rule of law and international rules -based | :10:23. | :10:26. | |
systems, a point was raised there were big reputation and repttation | :10:27. | :10:30. | |
is very important. Our reputation as an upholder of international | :10:31. | :10:35. | |
humanitarian law is, I belidve, very important. The act of role this | :10:36. | :10:38. | |
country played in the shaping of the arms trade treaty I think is | :10:39. | :10:41. | |
something we can be proud of. I simply do not believe that that test | :10:42. | :10:46. | |
of no clear risk is the test that is being applied. I agree with | :10:47. | :10:50. | |
colleagues on all sides in this debate and said we want a cdasefire | :10:51. | :10:56. | |
political process. This is ` conflict that will be settldd | :10:57. | :11:01. | |
diplomatically, not militarhly. The reason I support the motion is that | :11:02. | :11:04. | |
I really do believe we need a fully independent UN led investig`tion | :11:05. | :11:09. | |
into all of these are polling alleged violations of international | :11:10. | :11:16. | |
humanitarian law on both sides. Thank you Mr Speaker. It is a | :11:17. | :11:21. | |
pleasure to follow some verx, very where it speakers this afternoon, | :11:22. | :11:24. | |
including the member for Rehgate, for Leicester East and of course | :11:25. | :11:29. | |
from Aldershot. Today's deb`te Mr Speaker comes after a recent | :11:30. | :11:32. | |
adjournment debate in this chamber about humanitarian aid to Ydmen a | :11:33. | :11:38. | |
number of other debates including a backbench business debate, `nd the | :11:39. | :11:42. | |
report from the IDC committde of which I have a member. All of this | :11:43. | :11:49. | |
highlights the seriousness `nd complexity but also raises `wareness | :11:50. | :11:53. | |
of what is being described `s the forgotten war. The conflict in | :11:54. | :11:57. | |
Yemen, it is worth rememberhng, has its roots in the failure of a | :11:58. | :12:00. | |
transition process which was hoped would bring the ability to the | :12:01. | :12:04. | |
country following the uprishng in 2011, sadly this has not bedn the | :12:05. | :12:08. | |
case. And now despite nearlx two years of conflict neither shde | :12:09. | :12:12. | |
appears closed a decisive vhctory. The UN estimates of 4000 civilians | :12:13. | :12:18. | |
have been killed, over 7000 injured, 3.1 million Yemenis are intdrnally | :12:19. | :12:24. | |
dip -- internally displaced and 14 million are suffering from food | :12:25. | :12:28. | |
insecurity. This is a humanhtarian crisis that has been going on since | :12:29. | :12:33. | |
before the current situation began in following humanitarian rdlief I | :12:34. | :12:38. | |
think we should recognise the tremendous work of the charhties in | :12:39. | :12:43. | |
Yemen and NGOs so far. This is a country where the challenges of | :12:44. | :12:46. | |
getting aid to those who nedd it most is great. Wherever and whenever | :12:47. | :12:51. | |
UK a the importance of an unimpeded package -- passage cannot bd | :12:52. | :12:55. | |
underestimated. Not just for those in need but for the safety of those | :12:56. | :13:00. | |
NGOs who work in the countrx. On the 21st of September the Secretary of | :13:01. | :13:03. | |
State announced an addition`l 3 million of eight to support Yemen. | :13:04. | :13:08. | |
This brings the UK's total humanitarian funding for thd crisis | :13:09. | :13:13. | |
to ?100 million this year. The UK Government should be commended for | :13:14. | :13:18. | |
that. The UK is the fourth-largest donor and certainly stepped up to | :13:19. | :13:22. | |
the plate. The aim above all should now be in seeking a politic`l | :13:23. | :13:25. | |
settlement and the cessation of hostilities. Government shotld use | :13:26. | :13:31. | |
its leadership role and influence as much as possible and remain fully | :13:32. | :13:35. | |
involved in diplomatic efforts to bring about peace. This is why the | :13:36. | :13:39. | |
UK's strongly should ship whth a number of important players in the | :13:40. | :13:43. | |
region is vital. The key influence in the Middle East must help put us | :13:44. | :13:46. | |
in a unique position to help bring about a lasting peace settldment | :13:47. | :13:48. | |
that we are all so desperatdly searching for. | :13:49. | :13:54. | |
There is no doubt in my mind that the security situation in Ydmen is | :13:55. | :14:01. | |
serious. This conflict has been brutal. The UN has reminded all | :14:02. | :14:13. | |
parties they have a duty of care. An air strike hit a funeral hall on a | :14:14. | :14:18. | |
October. It is for the Saudhs to investigate and report back in the | :14:19. | :14:21. | |
first instance. We must remdmber and recognise that at the UN hulan | :14:22. | :14:26. | |
rights Council in September the UK supported a strong resolution that | :14:27. | :14:30. | |
includes a commitment to increase the number of human rights dxperts | :14:31. | :14:36. | |
in the Yemen office of the TN high to the human rights. Surely a | :14:37. | :14:40. | |
political solution has to bd the way forward? And an immediate and | :14:41. | :14:45. | |
unconditional ceasefire between rebels and government forces. Way | :14:46. | :14:50. | |
forward in the pursuit of a long-term solution to this conflict. | :14:51. | :14:55. | |
This conflict did not begin with the arrival of the Saudi led Co`lition | :14:56. | :14:59. | |
in March 2015. It began much earlier. There is much more I would | :15:00. | :15:05. | |
like to say today but I appreciate I am short of time. Let me end by | :15:06. | :15:13. | |
saying I will not be supporting the motion as set down by the | :15:14. | :15:18. | |
opposition. I will support the government's Amendment becatse I | :15:19. | :15:20. | |
believe that to be the right and proper thing to do. The sittation in | :15:21. | :15:26. | |
Yemen is appalling and devastating to the population. It is right that | :15:27. | :15:35. | |
we hold our friends to highdr standards. I believe that | :15:36. | :15:42. | |
withdrawing support for Saudi Arabia... A process of change will | :15:43. | :15:52. | |
only improve. This is the world s largest oil exporter in a rdgion | :15:53. | :15:58. | |
fraught with conflicts. I would we want to abandon an ally in the | :15:59. | :16:08. | |
situation? They provide us with intelligence in fighting terrorism. | :16:09. | :16:13. | |
Stopping arms sales to Saudh Arabia will not stop the conflict hn Yemen. | :16:14. | :16:18. | |
In fact, it could exacerbatd it because obviously they would not be | :16:19. | :16:23. | |
listening to the sound advice of this country and its governlent and | :16:24. | :16:29. | |
its military would be given it. But, at the same time, it would devastate | :16:30. | :16:34. | |
many thousands of highly skhlled people working in an industry in | :16:35. | :16:37. | |
line to show that provides `ircraft and systems that apart from | :16:38. | :16:43. | |
defending our borders also defend the borders of our allies. H want to | :16:44. | :16:56. | |
know if human rights abuses are accidental, planned or are there are | :16:57. | :17:02. | |
rogue elements in the Saudi air force carrying out these attacks? I | :17:03. | :17:15. | |
welcome the report. The intdrim report published on 15th October | :17:16. | :17:19. | |
stated that Saudi Arabia is reviewing its rules of engagement | :17:20. | :17:23. | |
and will take action on those responsible for these atrochties. | :17:24. | :17:27. | |
And the Foreign Secretary also said that the House should not bd in | :17:28. | :17:32. | |
doubt that the British Government are monitoring the situation | :17:33. | :17:35. | |
meticulously under would expect the government to do that, having served | :17:36. | :17:40. | |
on the committee when it was in force and I expected to do `gain in | :17:41. | :17:47. | |
future. As I said earlier in my intervention, the alternative to a | :17:48. | :17:51. | |
Saudi Royal family in governing Saudi Arabia is not liberal | :17:52. | :17:57. | |
democracy but extremist Isl`mist am and undermining one of our `llies in | :17:58. | :18:01. | |
the region is not an altern`tive to guiding them to abide by | :18:02. | :18:05. | |
international humanitarian law and the standards to which we all in | :18:06. | :18:13. | |
this House aspire. Thank yot. I would like the House to remdmber | :18:14. | :18:19. | |
that the countries involved in this terrible war in Yemen do not have a | :18:20. | :18:27. | |
history of intervention. Cotntries like Saudi, Kuwait, Bahrain, Qatar, | :18:28. | :18:30. | |
there is not a history in interviewing in other jurisdictions, | :18:31. | :18:35. | |
despite the fact they find themselves in a very volatile and | :18:36. | :18:39. | |
difficult region. And certahnly they have never come together as they | :18:40. | :18:45. | |
have done on this occasion to collectively enter another country | :18:46. | :18:49. | |
and take on the rebels. I think we ought to pause for a moment just to | :18:50. | :18:55. | |
think about the historic consequences and the unique | :18:56. | :18:58. | |
situation that we find in all of these countries, disparate | :18:59. | :19:03. | |
countries. My honourable frhend listed them. They have all come | :19:04. | :19:07. | |
together because collectively they see the appalling consequences of | :19:08. | :19:11. | |
what is happening in Yemen. Speaking to my contact in Saudi Arabha, they | :19:12. | :19:17. | |
tell me that many Saudis ard married to Yemenis. There is a huge amount | :19:18. | :19:27. | |
of exchange between Saudi and Yemen historically. The idea they would | :19:28. | :19:35. | |
deliberately target Yemenis they find shocking. Yemen has bedn | :19:36. | :19:39. | |
destabilised by these rebels. They are firing SCUD missiles into Saudi | :19:40. | :19:43. | |
Arabia and implementing the most appalling brutality throughout that | :19:44. | :19:48. | |
country. We have heard from the SNP about the civilian casualtids, but I | :19:49. | :19:52. | |
would also like to highlight the emirates have lost more pilots in | :19:53. | :19:58. | |
this conflict than in their history of their nation. So they have | :19:59. | :20:01. | |
suffered a great deal as well. And what really concerns me is that our | :20:02. | :20:07. | |
own media here in this country, the BBC in particular and Newsnhght in | :20:08. | :20:11. | |
particular and others, are tsing very superficial, pure and H would | :20:12. | :20:18. | |
even go so far as to seem bhased coverage, of the situation which is | :20:19. | :20:22. | |
then leading to motions emanating from the SNP and others. We met with | :20:23. | :20:26. | |
the Coalition forces in recdipt Receipt very kindly organisdd a | :20:27. | :20:34. | |
meeting for us to engage with the head of the Saudi air force. He told | :20:35. | :20:41. | |
as every single play on it `nd we can pinpoint exactly when the planes | :20:42. | :20:44. | |
are at any one time. If you have evidence that any of them h`ve | :20:45. | :20:49. | |
deliberately, and that is the critical word, and my honourable | :20:50. | :20:52. | |
friend from Reigate also alluded to this, if you have evidence they have | :20:53. | :20:59. | |
deliberately targeted civilhans then those must be raised dhrectly | :21:00. | :21:03. | |
with the Saudis, but they are doing everything possible to try to limit | :21:04. | :21:07. | |
civilian casualties. Of course, there is a report in the Independent | :21:08. | :21:12. | |
newspaper today that the Amdricans recently, there are bombing in | :21:13. | :21:17. | |
Syria, has led to over 300 casualties. Of course civilhans are | :21:18. | :21:21. | |
affected, regrettably, when there is a bombing campaign. I would like to | :21:22. | :21:27. | |
end, we take great pride in Shropshire at the REF BACs of | :21:28. | :21:33. | |
training many pilots from the Gulf states. Kuwaitis and Saudis. It is | :21:34. | :21:38. | |
not just about selling the dquipment to these Gulf states, we take great | :21:39. | :21:43. | |
pride in training these pilots to the very very highest stand`rds | :21:44. | :21:50. | |
User pilots who are taught by British counterparts the ethics of | :21:51. | :21:55. | |
what you're doing, not just about professionalism and flying, but the | :21:56. | :21:58. | |
ethics of flying those plands and the importance of what they do. I'm | :21:59. | :22:02. | |
very proud of the contributhon we make to them and I really rdgret | :22:03. | :22:05. | |
that there are people in thhs House to think that we would be p`rty in | :22:06. | :22:12. | |
some way to deliberately targeting civilians. Can I thank the | :22:13. | :22:19. | |
honourable member for Leicester East for his initiative in bringhng | :22:20. | :22:23. | |
forward the adjournment deb`te last week on the humanitarian atrocities | :22:24. | :22:27. | |
in Yemen? Two concurrent with his views that we all look forw`rd to | :22:28. | :22:33. | |
the UN peace talks about take place over the next few days. It was a | :22:34. | :22:38. | |
well attended debate last wdek and there were even more MPs here today | :22:39. | :22:43. | |
for this debate. Pulls on the government benches should t`ke note | :22:44. | :22:46. | |
of the growing discontent and unease within this House and across the | :22:47. | :22:51. | |
country in breaches of humanitarian law in Yemen. Of this issue has not | :22:52. | :22:55. | |
just emerged in the last wedk. Can I remind that house we're havhng this | :22:56. | :23:03. | |
debate today more than a ye`r after the first deliberate violathon of | :23:04. | :23:07. | |
human rights in Yemen. At that time, I was opposed to granting an arms | :23:08. | :23:18. | |
licence. I oppose that no. Ht still astonishes me there are those who | :23:19. | :23:22. | |
cannot see the contradiction in continuing to allow arms sales, | :23:23. | :23:24. | |
while continuing to assert that Britain is a force for good in the | :23:25. | :23:30. | |
world. With over 3 million internally displaced people in the | :23:31. | :23:36. | |
country and almost 50 million experiencing food and securhty, the | :23:37. | :23:38. | |
human cost of the conflict hs all too clear. In Yemen briefing last | :23:39. | :23:46. | |
week, we watched in silence as there was a Channel 4 report into the | :23:47. | :23:53. | |
level of suffering on the children in Yemen. We heard from Yemdnis they | :23:54. | :24:01. | |
told us who welcomed the current ceasefire. But peace could not be | :24:02. | :24:04. | |
delivered while the civil population were in danger of being bombs at | :24:05. | :24:09. | |
school, weddings, funerals or at work. This is not grandstanding If | :24:10. | :24:19. | |
it is, then I plead guilty. We are on the side of this House that | :24:20. | :24:22. | |
perfectly understands well that Saudi Arabia is an ally and are | :24:23. | :24:29. | |
fighting on the side of a legitimately recognised govdrnment | :24:30. | :24:33. | |
in Yemen and atrocities havd occurred on both sides. ?2.8 billion | :24:34. | :24:39. | |
of arms sales to the Saudi regime during the course of this conflict | :24:40. | :24:46. | |
has undoubtedly contributed to the humanitarian suffering. Surdly those | :24:47. | :24:49. | |
on the government front bench is cannot take a contrary view? No | :24:50. | :24:57. | |
independent investigation is taking place. In October last year, when | :24:58. | :25:08. | |
the Netherlands thought to dstablish an investigation into war crimes in | :25:09. | :25:15. | |
Yemen, the UK supported emotion I have met nobody who seriously thinks | :25:16. | :25:23. | |
that Saudi has the capacity to conduct an independent investigation | :25:24. | :25:28. | |
into itself. We know that investigation is worthless. Put | :25:29. | :25:34. | |
simply, the UK Government mtst immediately support the | :25:35. | :25:39. | |
establishment of a thorough UN led investigation into these crhmes The | :25:40. | :25:42. | |
continuing ability of anyond on government benches nocturne is that | :25:43. | :25:47. | |
forward is to the immense dhscredit. It opens ministers up to | :25:48. | :25:54. | |
international criminal investigations and that cannot be in | :25:55. | :25:57. | |
our national interests. I rditerate my position and the SNP's position | :25:58. | :26:04. | |
that the government must withhold arms sales to Saudi Arabia | :26:05. | :26:09. | |
immediately. And they must dnsure a UN investigation takes placd no | :26:10. | :26:14. | |
Most of us in this House wotld recognise Saudi Arabia is a country | :26:15. | :26:18. | |
in transition. It has come ` long way in a relatively short space of | :26:19. | :26:21. | |
time, in order to address some of the concerns we in this House have | :26:22. | :26:27. | |
articulated. To deny the have made progress is to deny the facts. I | :26:28. | :26:31. | |
would share some concern ovdr what has taken place in Yemen. No-one | :26:32. | :26:39. | |
could defend the death and bombings taking place at a wedding p`rty no | :26:40. | :26:44. | |
one can defend the death of civilians. When you stand b`ck and | :26:45. | :26:47. | |
look at the conflict in its totality and you see the crimes others are | :26:48. | :26:54. | |
responsible for, the captains and killings of Saudi personnel, the | :26:55. | :26:57. | |
intrusions across the Saudi border, you have to recognise the khngdom of | :26:58. | :27:02. | |
Saudi Arabia like any soverdign state has the right to defend | :27:03. | :27:07. | |
itself. As someone who has visited the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, I have | :27:08. | :27:15. | |
not been shy of being critical of aspects of that government's | :27:16. | :27:18. | |
direction of travel, but more too can we be blind to the fact they | :27:19. | :27:22. | |
have made some great strides in recent years. If I can turn very | :27:23. | :27:28. | |
much to the motion in front of us today and the suggestion th`t we | :27:29. | :27:32. | |
should cease supporting the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia at this current | :27:33. | :27:38. | |
time, I think to withdraw and try to influence the Kingdom of Satdi | :27:39. | :27:42. | |
Arabia would be a wrong thing indeed. That withdrawal of support | :27:43. | :27:56. | |
also... I am unashamedly in defence of our right to sell defencd sales | :27:57. | :28:00. | |
legitimately with export controls as we do to the Kingdom of Saudi | :28:01. | :28:07. | |
Arabia. My constituency, we employ six thousand men, women, apprentices | :28:08. | :28:18. | |
at BAE Systems. 4000 in Stansbury. 1000 in rough. Without arms exports, | :28:19. | :28:29. | |
16,000 people would be out of work. It is all very well sitting as | :28:30. | :28:34. | |
though you are at an Islington dinner party over your latest glass | :28:35. | :28:42. | |
of Uruguay wine, saying let's stop arms sales. Let's look at one key | :28:43. | :28:48. | |
fact here. Every single person is not a number, it is a human being | :28:49. | :28:53. | |
with a mortgage to pay, skills and jobs. Twice in my time as a member | :28:54. | :28:59. | |
of Parliament I have been at the gates of BAE Systems when | :29:00. | :29:04. | |
redundancies have been made. When you see proud working peopld lose | :29:05. | :29:07. | |
their jobs or at risk of losing their jobs, it is a humbling moment. | :29:08. | :29:11. | |
When I see people in this House tabling motions calling for them to | :29:12. | :29:19. | |
lose their jobs, I question their moral judgments. Because th`t is | :29:20. | :29:20. | |
what is happening. These are supply chains. If you seek | :29:21. | :29:31. | |
to suspend the sales of that defence equipment does not just somdwhere | :29:32. | :29:35. | |
else, we do not switch to manufacturing for someone else, they | :29:36. | :29:39. | |
lose their jobs. That is wh`t happens. So when you might feel | :29:40. | :29:42. | |
really proud that you have set the right thing and have done the right | :29:43. | :29:45. | |
thing, there are also peopld in this country who will lose their jobs, | :29:46. | :29:49. | |
tens of thousands of them, tp and down this country and so I `m not | :29:50. | :29:54. | |
going to sit and take lessons from the Scottish National party on what | :29:55. | :29:59. | |
are we doing morally? I know what we're doing, we are controlling arms | :30:00. | :30:03. | |
sales and I support the govdrnment actions on this and we are | :30:04. | :30:06. | |
controlling arms sales to the rigorous approach taken by the | :30:07. | :30:10. | |
government and anyone who sdeks to deny that is denying the trtth. Can | :30:11. | :30:19. | |
I start by thanking the offhcial opposition for securing this debate | :30:20. | :30:21. | |
and also thanking the member for Leicester East is not in his place | :30:22. | :30:26. | |
for rightly putting the focts on the importance and the deed by the | :30:27. | :30:30. | |
Speaker 's chair, the focus on the ceasefire because I think that is | :30:31. | :30:33. | |
what we would all like to h`ve seen. It is not his amendment that is | :30:34. | :30:38. | |
being debated or voted on this evening. I would like to brhefly | :30:39. | :30:42. | |
focus on the issue of the international investigation because | :30:43. | :30:45. | |
clearly the presidents were the UK Government and ministers have pushed | :30:46. | :30:48. | |
for international investigations in Sri Lanka for instance, which brings | :30:49. | :30:53. | |
the mind. I think we would support in right circumstances a | :30:54. | :30:57. | |
investigation that covers both sides because clearly there are htman | :30:58. | :31:00. | |
rights abuses, potentially being committed on both sides. I know the | :31:01. | :31:05. | |
government's position is th`t they are not opposing calls for `n | :31:06. | :31:09. | |
international independent investigation but what I wotld like | :31:10. | :31:13. | |
to press the Minister on is the circumstances under which the | :31:14. | :31:17. | |
government would actually stpport such an international investigation. | :31:18. | :31:23. | |
He has referred to allowing the Saudis to conduct their own | :31:24. | :31:25. | |
investigation but what test, criteria and timetable does | :31:26. | :31:30. | |
government to read Seattle `nd we think we have reached the point | :31:31. | :31:33. | |
where we need an international independent investigation? H am sure | :31:34. | :31:38. | |
the Minister is aware of thd statistics from the UN office of the | :31:39. | :31:41. | |
coordination of humanitarian affairs, we estimate that 93% of the | :31:42. | :31:50. | |
casualties from the launched explosives are civilians. And | :31:51. | :31:53. | |
therefore to suggest it is difficult to see with those kinds of | :31:54. | :31:56. | |
statistics how in fact civilians are being targeted certainly in the use | :31:57. | :32:03. | |
of the launched explosives. Also such an enquiry might look `t | :32:04. | :32:09. | |
whether the use of cluster lunitions is or is not in breach of | :32:10. | :32:14. | |
international humanitarian law. I know that the Minister's vidw or the | :32:15. | :32:18. | |
legal advice he has received is that provided those munitions ard used in | :32:19. | :32:22. | |
a way that does not contravdne international law, particul`rly IHL, | :32:23. | :32:29. | |
that the use of cluster munhtions Percy is not necessarily on waffle. | :32:30. | :32:32. | |
But I hope that perhaps the Minister would be able to set out on what | :32:33. | :32:37. | |
legal adjustments he is bashng the view, that the use of clustdr | :32:38. | :32:44. | |
munitions in civilian areas is on occasions illegal. Certainlx I think | :32:45. | :32:52. | |
the Americans with the favotr of an international investigation because | :32:53. | :32:57. | |
the Minister may be aware that US officials have looked at thd issue | :32:58. | :33:01. | |
of whether in fact the Unitdd States might be a cool blue didn't and they | :33:02. | :33:06. | |
might be subject under international law to being pursued for work round | :33:07. | :33:10. | |
so I hope that is something that our government have also investhgated. I | :33:11. | :33:17. | |
do welcome the visit from the Saudi Foreign Minister and he was very | :33:18. | :33:21. | |
open and frank and I think that is a good start in terms of a developing | :33:22. | :33:25. | |
relationship and he said th`t changes were going to be made in | :33:26. | :33:29. | |
terms of how the Saudis werd going to handle these issues. We have | :33:30. | :33:40. | |
heard that they are going to take action against those directly | :33:41. | :33:43. | |
responsible, but what else hs our minister expecting the Saudhs to do? | :33:44. | :33:49. | |
What additional measures is he expecting them to put in pl`ce to | :33:50. | :33:52. | |
make sure such incidents do not happen again in the future? There | :33:53. | :33:56. | |
might be an opportunity for the Minister to say something about the | :33:57. | :34:01. | |
subject of double tapping, that is a war crime in Russia but does not | :34:02. | :34:05. | |
appear to be in relation to Yemen. I would like to conclude by s`ying I | :34:06. | :34:09. | |
think there is overwhelming evidence that there are breaches of | :34:10. | :34:12. | |
international humanitarian law taking place now in Yemen and that | :34:13. | :34:16. | |
is why we will be supporting the motion tonight. The situation for | :34:17. | :34:22. | |
the Yemeni people is great `nd I am pleased that it is our government | :34:23. | :34:26. | |
that is the fourth biggest donor in humanitarian aid but I was dismayed | :34:27. | :34:31. | |
that of the $100 million th`t has been pledged by the International | :34:32. | :34:35. | |
committee, ?100 million, Germany is still to commit or pay and the EU | :34:36. | :34:41. | |
has paid less than promised. A cessation of hostilities is in the | :34:42. | :34:44. | |
best interests of not only Xemen but the wider region. I do not believe | :34:45. | :34:48. | |
that the suggestions in this motion would in any way achieve th`t aim. | :34:49. | :34:52. | |
Mr Speaker we cannot underestimate the importance of UK Saudi relations | :34:53. | :35:02. | |
in the national interest. This has over many years provided us with | :35:03. | :35:05. | |
crucial intelligence which has saved the lives of our constituents. You | :35:06. | :35:10. | |
must not forget that and thd fact that it has taken decades to build | :35:11. | :35:14. | |
up that relationship of trust, this understanding comes from thd fact | :35:15. | :35:17. | |
that tens of thousands of British nationals including many of my | :35:18. | :35:23. | |
honourable friend the memo for files, the member from Preston in my | :35:24. | :35:26. | |
own constituents have lived and worked in the Kingdom of Satdi | :35:27. | :35:30. | |
Arabia, through their work hn the defence aerospace industry. They | :35:31. | :35:34. | |
realised that the fledgling state, which was only founded in 1832, is | :35:35. | :35:39. | |
not perfect but that progress will only be made through experidnce | :35:40. | :35:43. | |
engagement and cooperation. Stability in Saudi Arabia is in the | :35:44. | :35:47. | |
British national interest. We have seen chaos since you in the last few | :35:48. | :35:51. | |
years since the so-called Arab Spring with the spike in terror | :35:52. | :35:55. | |
meted out at home and migration to our own shores the likes of which is | :35:56. | :36:02. | |
unprecedented. It is not thd perfect liberal democracy that we h`ve here | :36:03. | :36:06. | |
but it is better than anarchy and terror. We must support Saudi Arabia | :36:07. | :36:11. | |
in its strive towards reforl, in a peaceful fashion. Because these are | :36:12. | :36:14. | |
difficult times for that cotntry, with the falling oil price hn | :36:15. | :36:17. | |
unemployment and underemploxment, creating a vacuum which could be | :36:18. | :36:23. | |
filled with radicalisation which, again, would have an impact in our | :36:24. | :36:27. | |
own constituencies. It is unsurprising that Saudi Arabia will | :36:28. | :36:32. | |
do all it can to prevent thd war in Yemen spilling over into its own | :36:33. | :36:38. | |
territory. This is the country's first experience of extended | :36:39. | :36:41. | |
military action at the Forehgn Minister made that very cle`r when | :36:42. | :36:45. | |
he came to parliament last week and spoke frankly about the fact that | :36:46. | :36:47. | |
this is a new experience for the country. It is through Brithsh | :36:48. | :36:54. | |
intervention and guidance that they will learn about accountability | :36:55. | :36:59. | |
transparency, how would thex do that without allies like the UK? If the | :37:00. | :37:05. | |
UK were to suspend its support for the Saudi led coalition forces as | :37:06. | :37:08. | |
the opposition motion suggests I do not believe that this would expedite | :37:09. | :37:12. | |
the publication of reports. Rather I think that the country, Saudi | :37:13. | :37:17. | |
Arabia, would continue its campaign but without the influence on better | :37:18. | :37:24. | |
targeting, transparency, accountability and our understanding | :37:25. | :37:26. | |
of international humanitari`n law. Finally I would like to address the | :37:27. | :37:31. | |
SNP position. I will not crdated the arguments that were so ably set out | :37:32. | :37:36. | |
by other members about our `rms control and also about the | :37:37. | :37:39. | |
importance of aerospace to our country, but I think we need to | :37:40. | :37:43. | |
recognise that it is not an either or situation, discover it is not | :37:44. | :37:47. | |
pursuing trade to the exclusion of human rights. We do this, wd can | :37:48. | :37:50. | |
have these conversations about human rights because we have strong and | :37:51. | :37:55. | |
diplomatic trade and relations. And it is naive to think that if | :37:56. | :37:59. | |
suspended arms sales that S`udi would not buy them from somdbody | :38:00. | :38:04. | |
else. This motion and particularly the SNP position misunderst`nds the | :38:05. | :38:08. | |
reality of the region, our role in it and the British national | :38:09. | :38:16. | |
interest. It is almost five months since I successfully secured in | :38:17. | :38:18. | |
Westminster Hall debate on human rights and arms sales to Satdi. Part | :38:19. | :38:23. | |
of my speech focused on the situation in Yemen and sincd then it | :38:24. | :38:29. | |
has gotten progressively worse. A massively militarily in crisis as | :38:30. | :38:34. | |
the country heads into wintdr and is also leading towards a famine. Many | :38:35. | :38:41. | |
need assistance and are not receiving it is due to a lack of | :38:42. | :38:45. | |
unhindered access. I apprechate that the government have been making | :38:46. | :38:48. | |
efforts to make sure that ahd starts to get through, something that has | :38:49. | :38:52. | |
certainly helped the situathon, and the worried the damage to the Yemen | :38:53. | :38:56. | |
infrastructure has meant th`t essential supplies are still not | :38:57. | :39:00. | |
getting into the country. The onerous restrictions on the monetary | :39:01. | :39:04. | |
and access have resulted in 1.3 million children under five now | :39:05. | :39:08. | |
suffering from malnutrition. This is going to require images of dead | :39:09. | :39:12. | |
children to make us do more? There will soon be no shortage of them. A | :39:13. | :39:17. | |
fact that is heartbreaking `nd infuriating. The Department for | :39:18. | :39:20. | |
International Development whll no doubt argue that we are alrdady | :39:21. | :39:25. | |
doing our fair share and it is only right that we do so. I am afraid | :39:26. | :39:35. | |
however that hand-outs... M`ke the mistake, although we are not | :39:36. | :39:39. | |
coalition partners, we are willing accomplices. There are a lot of | :39:40. | :39:43. | |
people wanting to get in so I am sorry, I will have to carry on. I | :39:44. | :39:47. | |
have personally been calling for the suspension of the sale of arms to | :39:48. | :39:50. | |
Saudi Arabia for over a year now, and I have heard many excusds for | :39:51. | :39:55. | |
not doing so. First, the government insisted that the MOD had conducted | :39:56. | :40:00. | |
assessments of the situation in Yemen and had determined th`t there | :40:01. | :40:04. | |
was no evidence of breaches and international Germanic area law | :40:05. | :40:10. | |
This was as recently as Jund when a Foreign Office minister inshsted was | :40:11. | :40:14. | |
the case when responding to me in a Westminster Hall debate. Thdn we had | :40:15. | :40:16. | |
a climb-down when the government admitted that the MoD had not in | :40:17. | :40:21. | |
fact conducted any assessments, the new refrain is that the Saudis and | :40:22. | :40:26. | |
should be responsible for the invest that back for investigating | :40:27. | :40:28. | |
themselves and that is what has actually started to happen. Although | :40:29. | :40:33. | |
the joint incident assessments team have investigated relativelx few | :40:34. | :40:37. | |
incidents, even they have bden forced to admit that the Satdi led | :40:38. | :40:40. | |
coalition have indeed broken international humanitarian law. This | :40:41. | :40:47. | |
still does not seem to be enough to shame the government into action. | :40:48. | :40:51. | |
The coalition air strike in the San on the 8th of October was not | :40:52. | :40:55. | |
enough. The UN panel of expdrts in Yemen has condemned the air strike | :40:56. | :40:59. | |
and said that the Coalition has violated its obligations and under | :41:00. | :41:05. | |
international law and it did not take effect of precautionarx | :41:06. | :41:09. | |
measures. -- precautionary leasures to minimise harm to civilians | :41:10. | :41:13. | |
including first responders on the scene. When I asked the Fordign | :41:14. | :41:16. | |
Office in June for an assessment of an extensive report publishdd by the | :41:17. | :41:21. | |
panel of experts in January of this year, the response I receivdd was | :41:22. | :41:25. | |
and I quote, the UK has supported and continues to support thd work of | :41:26. | :41:30. | |
the panel of experts commissioned by the UN, but we do not always agree | :41:31. | :41:36. | |
with the conclusions. What H find totally shameful about that response | :41:37. | :41:40. | |
is that not once have I seen any evidence whatsoever that thd Foreign | :41:41. | :41:44. | |
Office has ever disagreed whth the conclusions of the Saudi | :41:45. | :41:48. | |
authorities. Let alone questioned. Why is it that the government seem | :41:49. | :41:52. | |
content to take the word of a participant in the war at f`ce value | :41:53. | :41:55. | |
yet this regard so resolutely findings of the UN panel? What I | :41:56. | :42:01. | |
would like to say today is that we need to stop arms sales to Saudi | :42:02. | :42:06. | |
Arabia and we need an indepdndent investigation. It is time for the | :42:07. | :42:10. | |
government to not only come clean about its role in the conflhct, but | :42:11. | :42:16. | |
to start putting things right. Thank you. I am very grateful to xour | :42:17. | :42:20. | |
server calling me in this ilportant debate. There are a number of | :42:21. | :42:23. | |
important issues that obviotsly have been touched on very ably bx | :42:24. | :42:27. | |
honourable members and right Honourable members on both sides but | :42:28. | :42:30. | |
the first thing that I think we have two consider is the fact th`t Saudi | :42:31. | :42:34. | |
Arabia, and I have visited the kingdom twice in the past three | :42:35. | :42:38. | |
years, is itself on a journdy. I first went there in 2013 is part of | :42:39. | :42:42. | |
the delegation and it was clear that one regime was coming to an end I | :42:43. | :42:47. | |
and a few colleagues went to the earlier this year and again it was | :42:48. | :42:50. | |
equally clear that the country had evolved. There were new programmes | :42:51. | :42:57. | |
in place under the direction of the Prince, he spoke very candidly about | :42:58. | :43:01. | |
the nature of Saudi involvelent in Yemen, as has his Foreign Mhnister. | :43:02. | :43:09. | |
Very ably in many instances. And we have to consider the fact that the | :43:10. | :43:13. | |
Saudi reaction in Yemen is not something that is coming out of the | :43:14. | :43:17. | |
blue. It is not something that they are adjusting for the sake of it. | :43:18. | :43:21. | |
They are doing it in response to a UN resolution to 216 which other | :43:22. | :43:25. | |
members have alluded to, whhch means that in this instance they `ctually | :43:26. | :43:30. | |
do have the force of intern`tional law behind them. I do not dhspute | :43:31. | :43:33. | |
that there have been incidents, there have been times in whhch the | :43:34. | :43:37. | |
Saudis may have been overbe`ring, they have acted beyond the | :43:38. | :43:43. | |
authority, and civilians have been killed. This is much to be | :43:44. | :43:50. | |
regretted, an appalling violation, and where there had been violations | :43:51. | :43:54. | |
these need to be looked at. But I do not believe it would help this | :43:55. | :43:57. | |
country or even the interests that are represented so ably by ly | :43:58. | :44:01. | |
colleagues in South Ribble for example, in Preston, from the other | :44:02. | :44:06. | |
side, and in other areas of the north-west. I don't think it would | :44:07. | :44:09. | |
help them by constituents to suspend the sale of arms to Saudi Arabia. | :44:10. | :44:17. | |
Nor I think would it be of `ny strategic value to the region | :44:18. | :44:18. | |
itself. We have seen Libya descend hnto | :44:19. | :44:36. | |
chaos. We have seen Yemen itself ridden with this terrible conflict. | :44:37. | :44:47. | |
The rebels are people who do not wish to conduct themselves `ccording | :44:48. | :44:51. | |
to international law. We have seen chaos in Syria. In this instance, | :44:52. | :44:57. | |
Saudi Arabia is acting as p`rt of a Coalition, as my friend for | :44:58. | :45:07. | |
Shrewsbury suggested. Other Arab countries such as Morocco are | :45:08. | :45:14. | |
involved in this action. We have Qatar, the UAE, Saudi itself, | :45:15. | :45:20. | |
Bahrain. All involved. They might not be shining democracies xou would | :45:21. | :45:26. | |
like to see in Scotland, but there are actual government is | :45:27. | :45:39. | |
functioning. It was a rush of blood to the head, seeing him taunt from | :45:40. | :45:47. | |
his sedimentary position. These countries are sources of st`bility | :45:48. | :45:50. | |
and it makes no sense for us to try and turn our backs on them. On the | :45:51. | :45:55. | |
contrary, we have to work whth them and make sure further our vholations | :45:56. | :45:59. | |
the right people are held to account. It doesn't make anx sense | :46:00. | :46:05. | |
for us to walk away. We havd important strategic relations with | :46:06. | :46:17. | |
these countries. We can be particularly critical if we need to | :46:18. | :46:26. | |
be. The honourable member for Shrewsbury accused the SNP of | :46:27. | :46:32. | |
grandstanding and of denying Saudi Arabia the right to self-defence. | :46:33. | :46:38. | |
Our argument is rather that the Saudi intervention in Yemen is | :46:39. | :46:44. | |
disproportionate. That is the key. A number of rights organisations using | :46:45. | :46:54. | |
open source material to try to count the number of air strikes shnce | :46:55. | :47:09. | |
March of last year. There are not enough targets to go bombing in the | :47:10. | :47:14. | |
way they have been going bolbing. Looking at open source material at | :47:15. | :47:21. | |
least 1000 of those air strhkes have resulted in civilian casualties | :47:22. | :47:29. | |
That is the issue. Thank yot for giving way. Would he agree with me | :47:30. | :47:35. | |
that funding what would appdar to be indiscriminate bombing is | :47:36. | :47:40. | |
undermining the excellent work that is being done in international aid. | :47:41. | :47:47. | |
I accept that and would go further. It is undermining the case hn Saudi | :47:48. | :47:54. | |
Arabia. The honourable membdr for Reigate introduced a new doctrine, | :47:55. | :47:59. | |
the doctrine of intent which looked at the intent of the Saudis, and | :48:00. | :48:04. | |
since they say they want pe`ce and security and are doing good things, | :48:05. | :48:08. | |
that is enough. Let's look `t the intent. They have not signed up to | :48:09. | :48:13. | |
the convention on cluster wdapons. I would expect, if they didn't want to | :48:14. | :48:17. | |
use them, they would sign up. In fact, we all know they have been | :48:18. | :48:26. | |
using them. They have been tsing air launched and ground-launched cluster | :48:27. | :48:30. | |
weapons. I know they are behng used on the other side as well. @nd we | :48:31. | :48:35. | |
are talking about a massive Western funded Coalition versus a slall | :48:36. | :48:39. | |
group of rebels. Disproporthon on both sides. If you look at which | :48:40. | :48:44. | |
cluster weapons have been found by human rights organisations `cross | :48:45. | :48:52. | |
Saudi, it is not just the bdes 55 cluster weapons that were | :48:53. | :48:57. | |
manufactured in Britain, thdre are others manufactured in the Tnited | :48:58. | :49:01. | |
States. There been found to have been used in at least five provinces | :49:02. | :49:06. | |
in Yemen. Here is the thing. The American cluster weapons were also | :49:07. | :49:12. | |
sold to Saudi 20 odd years `go. I don't know how they got there or who | :49:13. | :49:16. | |
use them, but is not surprising that all of the types of cluster bomb | :49:17. | :49:21. | |
weapons supplied to the Saudis 0 years ago in the 1980s and 80s have | :49:22. | :49:26. | |
been found to have been used comprehensively and across the whole | :49:27. | :49:29. | |
of Yemen? That deserves an investigation and that is what we | :49:30. | :49:34. | |
are asking for in this motion. Actually, the test of what Saudi is | :49:35. | :49:44. | |
doing is not intent, but whdther it is a balance of risk that | :49:45. | :49:48. | |
humanitarian law has been broken. I would put it to you there is ample | :49:49. | :49:51. | |
evidence that has happened. How did we get the intention of the Saudi | :49:52. | :49:56. | |
regime? That is what is the core of the message in this proposal tonight | :49:57. | :50:10. | |
and the SNP amendment. It is not that we want to stop all arls sales | :50:11. | :50:15. | |
in perpetuity. The argument is we are trying to get the attention of | :50:16. | :50:22. | |
the Saudi regime, which bec`use it cannot trust putting its own ground | :50:23. | :50:35. | |
troops in Yemen, it is using its air force, which has close links to the | :50:36. | :50:41. | |
Royal family, it is using the air force in an indiscriminate `nd | :50:42. | :50:45. | |
consistent way. Members havd mentioned repeatedly the bolbing of | :50:46. | :50:48. | |
the funeral, which actually was the funeral of the father of a leading | :50:49. | :50:54. | |
minister. A lot of ministers were expected to be the. There bden | :50:55. | :51:03. | |
repeated cases were civilians have been killed in a missile involvement | :51:04. | :51:18. | |
attacks. Colin for I helped is a way of getting the attention of the | :51:19. | :51:22. | |
Saudi regime that we get a ceasefire and a permanent solution to this | :51:23. | :51:27. | |
crisis. The situation in Yelen is dire. As I was his herd, ne`rly 7000 | :51:28. | :51:35. | |
people lost their lives. Ard over 14.4 million people who are food | :51:36. | :51:39. | |
insecure in Yemen. The recent ceasefire was a welcome few days of | :51:40. | :51:44. | |
relief, allowing humanitari`n aid through to the areas which simply | :51:45. | :51:48. | |
cannot be reached while clashes are going on. Something most | :51:49. | :51:52. | |
passionately noted by the Rhght honourable member for Leicester | :51:53. | :51:58. | |
East. Are true and lasting solution must come from a longer stable | :51:59. | :52:06. | |
ceasefire, during which efforts are made on both sides to securd a | :52:07. | :52:10. | |
balanced peace deal. I strongly support the government's work at the | :52:11. | :52:16. | |
UN and in Yemen. We should be proud we have contributed ?100 million, | :52:17. | :52:25. | |
making is the fourth largest donor. I am pleased around Buster was | :52:26. | :52:32. | |
present at the talks. Are political and financial support is welcome. | :52:33. | :52:35. | |
However, we must recognise that this is not about us and we are just one | :52:36. | :52:43. | |
player. It is very easy to loralise on foreign affairs, but the devil is | :52:44. | :52:47. | |
always in the detailed. History has taught us it is not our rold to | :52:48. | :52:51. | |
dictate the relations betwedn neighbouring countries in a region. | :52:52. | :52:56. | |
If we are honest, our record is not exactly perfect. I would suggest we | :52:57. | :53:05. | |
show some humility in our role here. My reservations about how S`udi | :53:06. | :53:07. | |
Arabia conduct some of its `ffairs internally and externally are known. | :53:08. | :53:13. | |
To discuss those concerned would require a whole other debatd. | :53:14. | :53:16. | |
However critical we are and continued to be with the involvement | :53:17. | :53:21. | |
of Saudi Arabia in this conflict, it is at the request of the legitimate | :53:22. | :53:26. | |
government of Yemen in order to deter aggression from illeghtimate | :53:27. | :53:33. | |
rebels. The situation is not isolated. It needs to be sedn within | :53:34. | :53:38. | |
the context of wider diffictlties in the Middle East. Ongoing tensions. | :53:39. | :53:49. | |
Even Iran calls them out at sometimes. As regional power | :53:50. | :53:56. | |
struggles continue, Saudi Arabia and Iran once again are the plaxers in | :53:57. | :54:06. | |
this situation. I would ask the Minister to outline what thd | :54:07. | :54:09. | |
Coalition and the UN envoy `re doing. As I draw to a close, again I | :54:10. | :54:16. | |
need to raise terrorism and extremism. We know the dangdr faced | :54:17. | :54:27. | |
by failed states. Daesh can feed on that and spread terrorism. The | :54:28. | :54:34. | |
Islamic military alliance now has 39 members. The role of the Alliance in | :54:35. | :54:40. | |
the future defeat of Daesh has been recognised by others, the United | :54:41. | :54:44. | |
States and others. We cannot risk weakening that alliance or | :54:45. | :54:47. | |
willingness of leading membdrs to lead the fight against Daesh by | :54:48. | :54:52. | |
attempting to undermine the role in this Yemen conflict. I have one | :54:53. | :54:56. | |
request for the Minister whdn he comes to his feet. In the context of | :54:57. | :55:02. | |
lasting peace in the region, I would suggest he pushed for some sort of | :55:03. | :55:07. | |
inclusion of Yemen in the Gtlf cooperation Council. This would send | :55:08. | :55:12. | |
a strong message of solidarhty and cooperation. The war in Yemdn is | :55:13. | :55:21. | |
reported as the forgotten w`r. This is the highest seat of democracy. | :55:22. | :55:29. | |
Can I firstly say that I support the legitimate government in Yelen and I | :55:30. | :55:32. | |
want to put on record I support the peace process as we try to love | :55:33. | :55:37. | |
forward. When you look at it in this House and see those issues, it is | :55:38. | :55:42. | |
important that is put on record Indiscriminate bombing and the | :55:43. | :55:46. | |
murder of innocents in Yemen, the destruction of property and the loss | :55:47. | :55:49. | |
of life are all issues we are aware of and may have to be condelned from | :55:50. | :55:57. | |
wherever they come from, as I have done in the past. Violations of | :55:58. | :56:01. | |
international law have been committed on both sides. War crimes | :56:02. | :56:10. | |
have to be condemned. The S`udi led Coalition has been responsible for | :56:11. | :56:13. | |
scores of air strikes that have indiscriminately targeted chvilian | :56:14. | :56:14. | |
objects. According to the UN report of 2 16, | :56:15. | :56:33. | |
the Coalition air strikes h`ve failed to uphold cornerstonds of | :56:34. | :56:41. | |
proportionality. There is a definite need for intervention. That is the | :56:42. | :56:45. | |
reason back in June I highlhghted this issue in a written question, | :56:46. | :56:48. | |
asking what assessment the Foreign Office has made of the report | :56:49. | :57:02. | |
published in April 2016. It is regarding grave violations `gainst | :57:03. | :57:04. | |
children. I would ask the Mhnister what is being done in terms of | :57:05. | :57:15. | |
response to a war of this m`gnitude? How are we aiming to bring `n end to | :57:16. | :57:21. | |
this forgotten war? Tribal leaders are likely to enforce punishments | :57:22. | :57:25. | |
for those who wish to leave Islam. This could mean honour killhngs and | :57:26. | :57:34. | |
forced marriage. We cannot support that. As the resulting power vacuum | :57:35. | :57:42. | |
takes place, Al-Qaeda and Islamic State are trying to gain power. The | :57:43. | :57:53. | |
world can little afford to have more strongholds for those who ddspise | :57:54. | :57:55. | |
our very existence in this House and who passionately wish to stop any of | :57:56. | :58:01. | |
us in this House from having another breath. And we have a duty to help | :58:02. | :58:05. | |
those children being slaughtered indiscriminately. We must provide | :58:06. | :58:14. | |
the assistance necessary. Wd have an international duty to stand with | :58:15. | :58:20. | |
allies and ensure that thosd... We will not stand by or encour`ge | :58:21. | :58:27. | |
atrocities to take place. Fhnally, we have a duty to our consthtuents | :58:28. | :58:32. | |
to prevent terrorists having an even greater hold on this world. Evil | :58:33. | :58:38. | |
triumphs were good men do nothing. At a time of delicate diplolacy at | :58:39. | :58:46. | |
a sensitive time, let us support the UN initiative. This is a crhtical | :58:47. | :58:54. | |
problem in Yemen. Let's support a peace solution which can last. | :58:55. | :59:01. | |
It is a pleasure to follow ly honourable friend from Strangford. I | :59:02. | :59:08. | |
have to say, it is welcome `gain to be here discussing Yemen. H`ving | :59:09. | :59:12. | |
been at the adjournment deb`te recently secured by the member for | :59:13. | :59:15. | |
Leicester East I would shard much of the comment he expressed earlier. | :59:16. | :59:19. | |
About the scale of the crishs that is gripping Yemen and the dhsaster | :59:20. | :59:23. | |
this conflict has proved to be for the Yemeni people. Both sidds are | :59:24. | :59:33. | |
preventing the access of food aid and I know he will share my | :59:34. | :59:36. | |
disappointment that the ceasefire has not help on and again I would | :59:37. | :59:39. | |
certainly share his hopes that the forthcoming UN discussions `re able | :59:40. | :59:43. | |
to bring what everyone wants to see you, every time to a system based on | :59:44. | :59:46. | |
because additional structurd for settling differences, not one based | :59:47. | :59:51. | |
on armed conflict. That said, we have to look at what are thd choices | :59:52. | :59:54. | |
and what are the alternativds and the reason why the UN actually voted | :59:55. | :00:01. | |
for support and intervention. It was quite interesting to hear the member | :00:02. | :00:04. | |
for easily and talk about a small rebel group. It is perhaps worth | :00:05. | :00:11. | |
giving the House of Commons library comments on this small rebel group a | :00:12. | :00:15. | |
quart. The Houthis have man`ged to gather dozens of tanks and plenty of | :00:16. | :00:18. | |
heavy weaponry from defectors and deserters. Prior to that it states | :00:19. | :00:24. | |
Yemen's affluent and Armed Forces have long been weak and fragmented | :00:25. | :00:28. | |
and have had too many forces lined up against them to put up a strong | :00:29. | :00:32. | |
resistance to the Houthis. This is not a small band of people hncapable | :00:33. | :00:37. | |
-- and capable militarily, ht is former soldiers and other rdbels who | :00:38. | :00:41. | |
are capable to pose a direct threat to overthrowing the main government | :00:42. | :00:45. | |
and that is why the intervention is there. We have two then conclude | :00:46. | :00:48. | |
what is the alternative if we did not have the Coalition involvement? | :00:49. | :00:53. | |
It would be them over running the country. And having a field stake in | :00:54. | :00:56. | |
Yemen equivalent to a failed state we have had in Somalia for so long. | :00:57. | :01:06. | |
It is certainly a large grotp but also well armed in terms of arms | :01:07. | :01:10. | |
from Iraq and there is also evidence that the Iranian Revolution`ry | :01:11. | :01:13. | |
guards acting on the ground in Yemen. I thank the honourable death | :01:14. | :01:20. | |
and four his intervention. Ht is not a small rebel group that fires a | :01:21. | :01:23. | |
blistered missile at a neighbouring country or attack the US warship in | :01:24. | :01:28. | |
international waters. That hs not a small group of lightly armed | :01:29. | :01:32. | |
individuals, it is a serious and coherent threat to the government of | :01:33. | :01:37. | |
Yemen, any cost additional progress and the security of one of the most | :01:38. | :01:45. | |
key trade routes in the world. And also shipping heading towards the | :01:46. | :01:49. | |
Suez Canal. Ultimately if wd allow a failed state in Yemen we wotld all | :01:50. | :01:52. | |
pay the price for it in the form of the cost of shipping that would | :01:53. | :01:55. | |
result as well as potential disruption to energy supplids. | :01:56. | :02:01. | |
Likewise the alternative to the Saudi coalition, led session that | :02:02. | :02:05. | |
was not the Saudis and the @llies had gone and intervene, the | :02:06. | :02:09. | |
alternative is Western intervention. To enforce a UN motion. At the same | :02:10. | :02:14. | |
people very busy attacking this coalition are the same people who | :02:15. | :02:17. | |
regularly pose any Western intervention in the Middle Dast For | :02:18. | :02:20. | |
a UN resolution to have any meaning it needs to be implemented `nd it is | :02:21. | :02:25. | |
questionable to know exactlx who they would have wanted this action | :02:26. | :02:32. | |
to be taken by. We are getthng short on time. The argument that the | :02:33. | :02:40. | |
support should be removed is wrong. I want to look at the motion itself, | :02:41. | :02:44. | |
and for me and was interesthng to hear the Shadow Foreign Secretary | :02:45. | :02:47. | |
telling us about the two colmand centres. I think that is wh`t really | :02:48. | :02:51. | |
does shoot out from the sextal motion, it talks about the Northern | :02:52. | :02:56. | |
command centre in Riyadh whdre our advisers are and that was bdlieved | :02:57. | :03:02. | |
to be were strikes were not authorised and then it talks about | :03:03. | :03:06. | |
our Southern command centre -- the Southern command centre where our | :03:07. | :03:10. | |
advisers are not and says that is where the problems were in terms of | :03:11. | :03:14. | |
targeting. Of course I will give way. The Southern command cdntre is | :03:15. | :03:23. | |
identified, it is not identhfied who is in it and it is not identified | :03:24. | :03:27. | |
whether it is, whether therd is anybody from any particular British | :03:28. | :03:31. | |
company or not and what British personnel if any are involvdd. I | :03:32. | :03:36. | |
thank the Right Honourable lember for her intervention but sthll it | :03:37. | :03:40. | |
does not see the point of why the motion says pulling our support and | :03:41. | :03:44. | |
advisers out of Riyadh would make any difference to what is h`ppening | :03:45. | :03:47. | |
there so I think that is a rather interesting point. Certainlx for me, | :03:48. | :03:52. | |
it makes the government's Alendment far stronger than the opposhtion's | :03:53. | :03:57. | |
original motion although I have to pay tribute to the right moral | :03:58. | :03:59. | |
member for Leicester East who managed to come up with a motion | :04:00. | :04:04. | |
that showed a lot more understanding than his party's front bench motion. | :04:05. | :04:09. | |
It may not agree with the vhew presented on Russia today btt it | :04:10. | :04:12. | |
perhaps have more understanding of the region and area. Finallx when | :04:13. | :04:17. | |
become an two a potential alleged use of cluster bombs, and it does | :04:18. | :04:21. | |
have to be clear and it may not be clear from one of the contr`ct - | :04:22. | :04:26. | |
one of the contributed from the SNP, that the weapons were last livered | :04:27. | :04:30. | |
in 1989. It will not change anything we did today whether weaponry | :04:31. | :04:33. | |
delivered in 1989 is being tsed or not. I challenge the Saudi @rabian | :04:34. | :04:40. | |
Foreign Minister on this directly, it is long overdue Saudi Ar`bia | :04:41. | :04:44. | |
signing up to the international treaty and ratifying it. Thdy told | :04:45. | :04:50. | |
me they were considering it, I suspect the consideration mhght be a | :04:51. | :04:52. | |
lot longer than most of us would rather it would be back agahn I | :04:53. | :04:55. | |
would be interested to hear from the Minister the work we are dohng to | :04:56. | :04:59. | |
encourage Saudi Arabia as one of our key allies to ratify that treaty and | :05:00. | :05:04. | |
send a powerful message that it s no longer intends to produce or retain | :05:05. | :05:09. | |
or use this type of weaponrx. Finally, this is one of the areas | :05:10. | :05:12. | |
where it will be a difficult decision for anyone. This is a | :05:13. | :05:16. | |
complex situation where nond of the actual outcomes look partictlarly | :05:17. | :05:20. | |
ideal. Therefore I accept that we have to be realistic. And lhke in so | :05:21. | :05:26. | |
many other situations in thd Middle East we must be careful what we wish | :05:27. | :05:29. | |
for because sometimes we find that what we wish for is a lot worse than | :05:30. | :05:35. | |
the devil we know. As already referred to in this debate, the | :05:36. | :05:40. | |
committees on arms export controls has in recent months conducted an | :05:41. | :05:47. | |
enquiry into the conflict in Yemen and the use of UK manufactured arms | :05:48. | :05:54. | |
in that conflict. In a joint report of the then Business, Innov`tion and | :05:55. | :05:58. | |
Skills and international developer select committees following the | :05:59. | :06:03. | |
enquiry which I chair, the conclusion from the widesprdad | :06:04. | :06:12. | |
evidence we heard was that there are violations of IHL reported by | :06:13. | :06:15. | |
organisations such as the UN, human rights watch and Amnesty | :06:16. | :06:21. | |
International. As a result the joint committee report has called on the | :06:22. | :06:26. | |
government to push for a UN led investigation into the condtct of | :06:27. | :06:31. | |
the Saudi led coalition, and for the suspension of arms sales. S`les to | :06:32. | :06:38. | |
the country who are -- whild this investigation takes place. Hf the | :06:39. | :06:41. | |
report was published on the 15th of September there has been further | :06:42. | :06:46. | |
civilian casualties, not le`st on the 8th of October with the most | :06:47. | :06:52. | |
severe attack of the conflict yet. Which has been referred to by a | :06:53. | :06:56. | |
number of colleagues. I will give way. I am most grateful. I would | :06:57. | :07:02. | |
just like asking the same qtestions I put to the Shadow Foreign | :07:03. | :07:05. | |
Secretary, when he talks about suspending arms sales, what does | :07:06. | :07:10. | |
that mean? Does that mean that he believes that his committee believes | :07:11. | :07:13. | |
that the United Kingdom shotld withhold the supply of spard parts, | :07:14. | :07:19. | |
that we should withdraw our advisers to the Royal Saudi Air Forcd or does | :07:20. | :07:25. | |
he just mean about future s`les down the track? We are running ott on | :07:26. | :07:32. | |
time and if people want to give the front bench windups and Phyllis then | :07:33. | :07:36. | |
I suggest that you intervention as possible and very, very short. | :07:37. | :07:40. | |
Chris White. I'm sorry Madal Deputy Speaker, I felt I owed the | :07:41. | :07:45. | |
honourable member that question I would suggest to him that wd are, we | :07:46. | :07:52. | |
have a very short amount of time this debate. I think that this | :07:53. | :07:55. | |
deserves the opportunity to have a proper discussion of what a pause in | :07:56. | :08:02. | |
arms sales would be but I would ask a more open question back to the | :08:03. | :08:07. | |
house, people have spoken on the same side as in, is that wh`t we | :08:08. | :08:13. | |
were looking for is for a united led -- United Nations let indepdndent | :08:14. | :08:18. | |
investigation on what is prdventing that investigation. Saudi Arabia has | :08:19. | :08:24. | |
described those air strikes on that funeral as a mistake. While the | :08:25. | :08:29. | |
government continues to depdnd on Saudi assurances in relation to the | :08:30. | :08:36. | |
conflict. For me it does beg the question, with so many civilian | :08:37. | :08:40. | |
casualties, can every act which results in such loss be considered a | :08:41. | :08:47. | |
mistake? As Philip Sands QC told the committee on arms export controls, | :08:48. | :08:52. | |
whether or not the state intends to commit a violation or does not does | :08:53. | :08:58. | |
not detract from the fact that the violation has been committed by that | :08:59. | :09:05. | |
state. The UK's legal oblig`tions stipulate that the government must | :09:06. | :09:09. | |
suspend arms sales if there is a clear risk that there might be a | :09:10. | :09:12. | |
violation of international humanitarian law. I suggest that | :09:13. | :09:18. | |
this criteria has been met `nd that arms sales to Saudi Arabia should be | :09:19. | :09:25. | |
suspended. I repeat, reports recommendation that while stch doubt | :09:26. | :09:31. | |
and uncertainty about international humanitarian law, compliancd in | :09:32. | :09:35. | |
Yemen exist, the default position of the UK Government should not be to | :09:36. | :09:41. | |
continue to sell weapons but to pause until it is satisfied that | :09:42. | :09:45. | |
allegations have been properly investigated. I wish there were more | :09:46. | :09:53. | |
time for me to express my s`dness to see this beautiful, seductive | :09:54. | :09:57. | |
complex country that I have had the pleasure of visiting several times, | :09:58. | :10:01. | |
laid low once again. The last time I visited Sanaa I was told of the | :10:02. | :10:06. | |
speech by Aubrey Herbert who was then the member of Parliament for | :10:07. | :10:10. | |
Yeovil 100 years ago about the situation in the country. Hd said, | :10:11. | :10:13. | |
like the dream of a haunted painter where women and men skin and bone | :10:14. | :10:18. | |
with begging eyes and clutching hands. That speech of the four of | :10:19. | :10:22. | |
this has 100 years ago could have been made today, Madame dignity | :10:23. | :10:26. | |
Speaker, and it fills me with great sadness to see the state of the | :10:27. | :10:31. | |
country. But let me turn quhckly in the very little time I have two the | :10:32. | :10:35. | |
question of arms sales, the emotive question which has been the subject | :10:36. | :10:40. | |
of our debate today. Let me be clear about what the arms sales are about. | :10:41. | :10:44. | |
They are about giving a nathon which is under attack the arms it needs to | :10:45. | :10:50. | |
defend its territory. It is about giving an important ally thd arms | :10:51. | :10:53. | |
they need to re-establish or try to do so are legitimate governlent | :10:54. | :11:00. | |
which has been displaced by rebels. Madam Deputy Speaker, we must not | :11:01. | :11:04. | |
restrain and have not today, from expressing a view about the way the | :11:05. | :11:08. | |
one in Yemen is being conducted And we are very concerned about the high | :11:09. | :11:12. | |
numbers of casualties. It is right that this country has high | :11:13. | :11:17. | |
standards, but we must not forget the context. And that, I am afraid, | :11:18. | :11:20. | |
is what some of the speeches including from the Shadow Foreign | :11:21. | :11:29. | |
Secretary missed. The context is that a Houthi controlled Ir`nian | :11:30. | :11:33. | |
backed regime would be a ch`otic unstable place ripe for exportation | :11:34. | :11:37. | |
by Iran and like I've -- and Al-Qaeda and Daesh, risking a | :11:38. | :11:43. | |
crucial poetical part of thd world and in -- and encouraging tdrrorism | :11:44. | :11:47. | |
there and across the Arabian peninsula and the Horn of Africa. | :11:48. | :11:51. | |
That is the context, that is a strategic interest and we mtst not | :11:52. | :11:55. | |
forget that this debate is lore important than the sale of weapons. | :11:56. | :12:01. | |
Although jobs are on -- jobs understandably depend on thdm it is | :12:02. | :12:04. | |
a message to our friend and allies and it is a message to our dnemies | :12:05. | :12:09. | |
as well. And I hope that thd message is one that we as a nation, if we | :12:10. | :12:14. | |
want to help this desperate country, must have an influential vohce in | :12:15. | :12:22. | |
this region. We must be aware of simple answers to Congress | :12:23. | :12:24. | |
questions, we must be cautious in adopting a singular anti-Satdi | :12:25. | :12:30. | |
Arabia line, we must apprechate the context, the need to support | :12:31. | :12:33. | |
illegitimate government, to allow Saudi Arabia to defend its borders | :12:34. | :12:39. | |
and territorial integrity. To try to assert, to try to resist thd descent | :12:40. | :12:44. | |
of this proud great nation that I have had the pleasure to visit into | :12:45. | :12:49. | |
an Iranian backed Houthi regime of chaos and destruction and to retain | :12:50. | :12:55. | |
some modest modest influencd over the conduct of the war and we would | :12:56. | :12:59. | |
have no influence will be to suspend our arms sales and walk awax. And to | :13:00. | :13:06. | |
see, Madam Deputy Speaker, `mongst the many security objectives and | :13:07. | :13:10. | |
values, keeping faith with old and important allies, and being a | :13:11. | :13:14. | |
reliable security partner as essential. For all of these reasons | :13:15. | :13:20. | |
Madam Deputy Speaker, I support the government, that trying to navigate | :13:21. | :13:24. | |
in a considered and intelligent way, a difficult path through a complex | :13:25. | :13:30. | |
duration that I am afraid others are too quick to simplify. Thank you | :13:31. | :13:37. | |
Madame dignity Speaker. We have heard an impassioned debate | :13:38. | :13:53. | |
on the conflict in Yemen. It is rapidly turning into to one of the | :13:54. | :13:58. | |
worst humanitarian situations in the world. Likewise, my friend, the | :13:59. | :14:11. | |
Member for Leicester East, who has tirelessly pursued the calls for | :14:12. | :14:14. | |
peace in Yemen once again m`de a powerful case for the proper | :14:15. | :14:18. | |
investigation of all of these allegations. We heard contrhbutions | :14:19. | :14:31. | |
from the Member for Twickenham who told us of the use of clustdr bombs, | :14:32. | :14:37. | |
the Member for South Perthshire who spoke of the atrocities in Xemen and | :14:38. | :14:46. | |
the targeting of innocent children. And the member who spoke about the | :14:47. | :14:53. | |
need to cover both sides. From honourable members who support the | :14:54. | :15:03. | |
call for an independent enqtiry The Member for North East Bedfordshire | :15:04. | :15:06. | |
who has great insight and understanding of the region. And the | :15:07. | :15:10. | |
Member for new work who spoke with passion about the conflict `nd how | :15:11. | :15:14. | |
it is affecting the civilian population and how we should | :15:15. | :15:16. | |
scrutinise the true threat hn the region. The Member for Stratford | :15:17. | :15:30. | |
upon Avon, Dunfermline, Fifd and Wilden who spoke about the need for | :15:31. | :15:41. | |
humanitarian relief, and honourable members from across the parties | :15:42. | :15:46. | |
from both parties, who spokd powerfully about the need for a full | :15:47. | :15:54. | |
independent investigation. They and many others spoke, and we don't have | :15:55. | :15:58. | |
a lot of time for me to mention the law, but I know they stand with me | :15:59. | :16:04. | |
on the comments they made. Today, those people are outspoken `nd | :16:05. | :16:09. | |
intervened, I believe are united in one thing. Would we stand | :16:10. | :16:12. | |
individually on the causes of this conflict and how it it must | :16:13. | :16:21. | |
ultimately be resolved, or we stand on the long term relationshhp with | :16:22. | :16:26. | |
Saudi Arabia, we do share one common view. What matters above all know is | :16:27. | :16:33. | |
tackling the humanitarian crisis gripping Yemen and stopping the | :16:34. | :16:38. | |
thousands of civilian deaths turning into tens or hundreds or thousands, | :16:39. | :16:46. | |
as the country tips into faline and epidemic disease. We have bden moved | :16:47. | :16:52. | |
by the images of emaciated children and teenagers. Without our health | :16:53. | :16:59. | |
care system that in many parts of the country has been destroxed. And | :17:00. | :17:06. | |
with humanitarian relief bodies too often unable to access thosd in | :17:07. | :17:09. | |
greatest need, we have been saddened by the stories of young goat herders | :17:10. | :17:15. | |
in rural areas picking up cluster bombs, thinking they are toxs. But | :17:16. | :17:21. | |
the true horror in Yemen lids not in the individual images and stories, | :17:22. | :17:26. | |
but in looking at the sheer numbers affected, especially the chhldren. | :17:27. | :17:30. | |
And asking what on earth thd future holds for them. Even before the war, | :17:31. | :17:36. | |
1.6 million children in Yemdn did not go to school. Since March 2 | :17:37. | :17:41. | |
15,000 more schools have bedn closed. And up to 600,000 more | :17:42. | :17:48. | |
children are receiving no education. Even before the war, Yemen was one | :17:49. | :17:51. | |
of the highest rates of malnutrition in the world. But since March 2 15, | :17:52. | :17:58. | |
million children have now moved into a state of acute malnutrition. And | :17:59. | :18:08. | |
the situation is only getting worse. A representative from the world food | :18:09. | :18:13. | |
programme said yesterday hunger was increasing everyday people have | :18:14. | :18:16. | |
exhausted all survival strategies. The world food programme director | :18:17. | :18:21. | |
explained the situation on the ground. We need to provide ` full | :18:22. | :18:27. | |
ration to every family in nded. Sadly we have disparate asshstance | :18:28. | :18:31. | |
between impoverished familids to meet growing needs. His dev`stating | :18:32. | :18:37. | |
conclusion, an entire gener`tion will be crippled by Humber. -- | :18:38. | :18:49. | |
hunger. According to the UN, the majority have been killed and a | :18:50. | :18:54. | |
result of Coalition air strhkes When time and time again we hear | :18:55. | :19:02. | |
from the Saudis that they are investigating, indeed what hs the UK | :19:03. | :19:07. | |
Government doing? Reports of civilian casualties from Co`lition | :19:08. | :19:11. | |
air strikes are greatly exaggerated, that is what we are being told. And | :19:12. | :19:20. | |
those being hit our only by rebels. But I asked the government, how does | :19:21. | :19:25. | |
that square with the fact that more than 1000 of those casualtids are | :19:26. | :19:29. | |
children? At the heart of this debate and the motion today is a | :19:30. | :19:33. | |
simple question, as set out by my honourable friend, the Shadow | :19:34. | :19:39. | |
Foreign Secretary. It is not about whether anyone agrees or not with | :19:40. | :19:42. | |
the justification of the conflict and the UN mandate that unddrpins | :19:43. | :19:47. | |
it, the question is, given the concerns about the wind which the | :19:48. | :19:53. | |
Coalition forces are conducting this conflict potential violations of | :19:54. | :19:57. | |
international law, given thd inadequacy of the Saudi led | :19:58. | :20:02. | |
investigation into those alleged violations, and given the tdrrible | :20:03. | :20:05. | |
and worsening consequences for the civilian population of Yemen as long | :20:06. | :20:10. | |
as this continues, surely it makes sense for the UK to suspend its | :20:11. | :20:16. | |
support for the Coalition forces until there has been a propdr full | :20:17. | :20:23. | |
investigation into how the war is being conducted? And whether | :20:24. | :20:26. | |
international law is being broken? Let me boil it down to one dxample. | :20:27. | :20:33. | |
And 11 September in a rebel,held province, Coalition forces destroyed | :20:34. | :20:45. | |
a major new wealth. When workers rushed to the scene to help the | :20:46. | :20:53. | |
injured, the Coalition forcds returned and bombed again. 30 were | :20:54. | :20:58. | |
killed and 17 wounded. That is why this motion makes a simple case | :20:59. | :21:02. | |
which we hope can command the support of the whole house. Let the | :21:03. | :21:07. | |
UN investigate this and the thousands of other incidents. Let | :21:08. | :21:11. | |
them determine whether therd has been a violation of international | :21:12. | :21:14. | |
law. In the interim, let thd government suspend its support for | :21:15. | :21:18. | |
Coalition forces. Let the mdssage glide from this House that we care | :21:19. | :21:24. | |
about those people in Yemen. The children in Yemen who are at risk. | :21:25. | :21:35. | |
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much. It is a pleasure to rdspond to | :21:36. | :21:43. | |
this important debate and to dispel some of the mess around this | :21:44. | :21:51. | |
conflict but also to clarifx the role of the UK. As we have heard, | :21:52. | :21:57. | |
Britain has a historical relationship with the region. We are | :21:58. | :22:04. | |
a member of the UN Security Council, we work with international | :22:05. | :22:08. | |
colleagues and we support the UN envoy and recommend his road map | :22:09. | :22:13. | |
which has been produced and shared the stakeholders. It is worth | :22:14. | :22:19. | |
stepping back to place into context the current challenges Yemen faces. | :22:20. | :22:24. | |
This is a young country. Thd north and south only uniting in 1890. | :22:25. | :22:30. | |
Failure by the then president to strengthen the nation's bonds gave | :22:31. | :22:38. | |
space for extremism in the form of Al-Qaeda. Be forced to stand aside | :22:39. | :22:46. | |
in the Arab Spring. With a legitimately appointed preshdent, | :22:47. | :22:51. | |
work then began to unite thd country in 2013 and 2014. In September 014, | :22:52. | :23:00. | |
our partnership agreement w`s signed by the rebels themselves. In that | :23:01. | :23:05. | |
very same month, they moved south from their strongholds, into the | :23:06. | :23:09. | |
capital, took over key buildings and placed cabinet member is under | :23:10. | :23:15. | |
arrest. These actions prompted the president to request intern`tional | :23:16. | :23:19. | |
support. Legitimised through the United Nations Security Council | :23:20. | :23:25. | |
2216, which includes the lines using all means necessary. As my right | :23:26. | :23:34. | |
honourable friend said, the UK has an important relationship whth Saudi | :23:35. | :23:40. | |
Arabia. It has been a stratdgic defence partner for decades. We need | :23:41. | :23:44. | |
to use that relationship to advance Saudi Arabia's accountability. This | :23:45. | :23:50. | |
is a new country itself, gahning independence in 1932. The concept of | :23:51. | :23:57. | |
central government is relathvely new. Its leadership is on the | :23:58. | :24:02. | |
moderate side of a conservative population. We want to see lore | :24:03. | :24:11. | |
accountability, more transp`rency. But we also want to see our | :24:12. | :24:16. | |
involvement in that impresshon that forward. I will come the vision | :24:17. | :24:25. | |
which underlines where we would like to take the country. Is it hn Saudi | :24:26. | :24:29. | |
Arabia's interests to test the resolve of the West and delhberately | :24:30. | :24:33. | |
breach international humanitarian rights law? The honourable lember | :24:34. | :24:42. | |
for Durham mentioned the visit by the Foreign Minister for Satdi | :24:43. | :24:46. | |
Arabia. Where better to hold accounts and other Foreign Linister | :24:47. | :24:51. | |
than Sir in the mother of all Parliaments? Anything he dods a | :24:52. | :24:54. | |
service to his country and to others in holding his hand up and seeing, | :24:55. | :24:59. | |
what are the challenges he faces and what will Britain can play hn moving | :25:00. | :25:06. | |
forward? Turning to humanit`rian issues raised by a number of | :25:07. | :25:12. | |
honourable colleagues, I pax tribute to the secretary who held in the UN | :25:13. | :25:21. | |
assembly at conference that we increased our aid package. @nd | :25:22. | :25:27. | |
encourage others to join us in tackling the humanitarian shtuation | :25:28. | :25:32. | |
on the ground. We estimate that 80% of the population are in nedd of | :25:33. | :25:41. | |
assistance. Ships are queuehng to get in. I am pleased we will look at | :25:42. | :25:46. | |
this to see what we can do to prepare cranes. On licensing issues, | :25:47. | :25:54. | |
this has been taken seriously. The MoD monitors alleged instances using | :25:55. | :26:03. | |
all available information to form an overall view regarding international | :26:04. | :26:12. | |
humanitarian law. It has bedn slow. It has taken time. There have been | :26:13. | :26:18. | |
mistakes. Modern warfare is complex and difficult. But we need to make | :26:19. | :26:22. | |
sure we work with them so they can put their hand up. That is what has | :26:23. | :26:33. | |
happened when I went to Saudi Arabia to ask about the funeral attack on | :26:34. | :26:38. | |
eight October. This was a shocking and tragic incident. The Foreign | :26:39. | :26:43. | |
Secretary expressed deep regret about this incident. I travdlled to | :26:44. | :26:48. | |
the capital to express our concerns and ask details of the | :26:49. | :26:54. | |
investigation. It transpires that standard operating procedurds were | :26:55. | :26:56. | |
not followed in this partictlar case. At least one senior officer | :26:57. | :27:05. | |
did not follow agreed rules of engagement. I expect him to face a | :27:06. | :27:09. | |
court-martial, along with others as well. To conclude, the of this | :27:10. | :27:17. | |
government is clear. The conflict in Yemen must end. A political | :27:18. | :27:22. | |
agreement between the Yemenh parties must be found. The humanitarian | :27:23. | :27:26. | |
suffering and economic situ`tion must be addressed. Britain continues | :27:27. | :27:30. | |
to play an important role and support the UN envoy's road map | :27:31. | :27:36. | |
recently distributed to all stakeholders. We continue to monitor | :27:37. | :27:41. | |
the situation closely and to factor any incidents of concern into our | :27:42. | :27:47. | |
consideration over our conthnued export of weapons to Saudi @rabia. | :27:48. | :27:54. | |
The government is not opposdd to the idea of independent UN led | :27:55. | :27:58. | |
investigations. I have said that in this chamber before. But first we | :27:59. | :28:03. | |
want to see Saudi Arabia investigate allegations. That is intern`tional | :28:04. | :28:09. | |
convention. We want to see them do this. Russia is defying... The | :28:10. | :28:21. | |
question is that the question now be put. The eyes mac have it. The | :28:22. | :28:32. | |
question is that the origin`l words stand as part of the question. | :28:33. | :28:39. | |
Division. Clear the lobbies. The magazine question is th`t the | :28:40. | :30:10. | |
original word is that part of the question. As many of that opinion | :30:11. | :30:17. | |
say aye. To the contrary, no. Ellis for the eyes, tellers for the nose. | :30:18. | :30:39. | |
-- tellers for the ayes, tellers for the noes. | :30:40. | :36:42. | |
The ayes to the right, 193, the noes to the left, 283. | :36:43. | :42:54. | |
The ayes to the right 193, the noes to the left, 283. The noes Cabinet, | :42:55. | :43:06. | |
the noes Cabot. And Lock. The question is that the proposdd words | :43:07. | :43:10. | |
be the added, as many there are of that opinion say aye, in thd | :43:11. | :43:15. | |
country, no. I think the ayds have it, the ayes habit. The main | :43:16. | :43:22. | |
question is that the question be agreed to. As many of that say aye. | :43:23. | :43:27. | |
By the contrary, no. The ayds covered, the ayes habit. Petition, | :43:28. | :43:39. | |
Mark Tami. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. | :43:40. | :43:50. | |
Order. Order. Thank you. Thd petition of residence regarding the | :43:51. | :44:07. | |
implementation of the 1995 `nd 011 pension acts and the campaign for | :44:08. | :44:13. | |
women against pension inequ`lity. The petitioners request the House of | :44:14. | :44:38. | |
Commons urges the government to make fair transitional arrangements for | :44:39. | :44:47. | |
all women born in the 1950s who have unfairly born the burden of the | :44:48. | :44:49. | |
increase to the state pension age. Petition. Implementation of the 1995 | :44:50. | :45:22. | |
and 2011 pension acts. The puestion is that the House now adjourned I | :45:23. | :45:30. | |
want to start by saying I c`lled this debate with the support and | :45:31. | :45:35. | |
backing with all members of the House for Birmingham. | :45:36. | :45:52. | |
Several constituency MPs have joined me today. I want to see a m`ssive | :45:53. | :46:01. | |
thank you for all members from across the Midlands who havd | :46:02. | :46:05. | |
supported this campaign. And to thank the members from Northern | :46:06. | :46:09. | |
Ireland were here tonight for their support. I wish to pay a spdcial | :46:10. | :46:15. | |
mention to the Member for Lde who recently gave voice to this issue. I | :46:16. | :46:19. | |
want to breathe life into a debate which has become about clail and | :46:20. | :46:25. | |
counterclaim and a very famous miscarriage of justice. It hs time | :46:26. | :46:28. | |
that in this place and out there that the story of the 21 people who | :46:29. | :46:35. | |
died became our focus. I will go on to cover some of the issues that the | :46:36. | :46:39. | |
families of the 21 victims have faced in the fight to receive fair | :46:40. | :46:44. | |
and equal access to our justice system. I'm sure the Ministdr is | :46:45. | :46:48. | |
poised to tell how is that xesterday the families were informed they will | :46:49. | :46:52. | |
be granted some form of leg`l aid funding. This was not the c`se when | :46:53. | :46:57. | |
I called the debate and perhaps today I will do a little bit less | :46:58. | :47:04. | |
fist waving them I might have. Their treatment and the legal funding | :47:05. | :47:07. | |
granted still poses fundamental questions which must be answered. If | :47:08. | :47:15. | |
you are from Birmingham, yot have a story to tell about the night of the | :47:16. | :47:18. | |
pub bombings. My parents were driving away from the city with my | :47:19. | :47:25. | |
brothers in the back of a c`r when they heard the blast. My father | :47:26. | :47:32. | |
returned to work on Monday to find a young woman he taught had bden | :47:33. | :47:40. | |
killed. 21 people died on 20st of November 1974. 21 people have been | :47:41. | :47:44. | |
largely forgotten in a storx that for so many became about six men. | :47:45. | :47:50. | |
Announce a child, the story of the Birmingham six was everywhere. It is | :47:51. | :47:54. | |
worth noting it was not the justice system which acted to correct itself | :47:55. | :47:59. | |
in that matter, it was the `ction of members of this House at thd time, | :48:00. | :48:04. | |
namely Chris Mullins, which led to the release. This House can have an | :48:05. | :48:10. | |
important role to play in the story. The story of that fatal night became | :48:11. | :48:14. | |
for many a story about the `ccused and the war in Northern Ireland The | :48:15. | :48:24. | |
lives and loves of the people who died were lost. Maxine Hamilton | :48:25. | :48:33. | |
Jane Davis, Michael Beasley, Lynne Bennett, Stanley Bodman, Thomas | :48:34. | :48:43. | |
Chater, James Craig, Paul D`vies, Charles Gray, and he is, John Jones, | :48:44. | :48:57. | |
Neil Marsh, Marilyn Nash, P`mela Palmer, Maureen Roberts, John | :48:58. | :49:03. | |
Rowland, Trevor Thrupp and Stephen Waller. Their names are not enough. | :49:04. | :49:11. | |
The people who died had livds and responsibilities. That night, | :49:12. | :49:20. | |
friends stood at a bar sharhng appetite and a joke. A | :49:21. | :49:22. | |
larger-than-life character was the life and soul of the group. His | :49:23. | :49:32. | |
friends included a father and postman. The request for drhnks | :49:33. | :49:38. | |
saved the life of the barmahd, but ended that of him and his friends. | :49:39. | :49:42. | |
They were positioned exactlx where they stood, friends in death as they | :49:43. | :49:52. | |
had been in life. Paul Davison was walking past the mulberry btsh when | :49:53. | :50:00. | |
the Bob went off. He died ott right. He was 20 years old with a xoung | :50:01. | :50:08. | |
child and another on the wax. His partner never got over the death and | :50:09. | :50:18. | |
the child was left an orphan. Jane Davis was the youngest victhm at 17. | :50:19. | :50:26. | |
Lives extinguished before they ever had time to begin. I met thd sister | :50:27. | :50:32. | |
of Maxine five years ago. Until recently, we did not realisd the | :50:33. | :50:38. | |
connection between our families She has been campaigning for ye`rs to | :50:39. | :50:42. | |
find out what happened to their loved ones. The victims of these | :50:43. | :50:45. | |
killings are not confined to those who died, but for those who were | :50:46. | :50:51. | |
injured also and the hundreds of people affected through loss, grief | :50:52. | :50:55. | |
and fear that followed. Julhe wrote to me last week. Maxine was our | :50:56. | :51:00. | |
sister. She had an aura of laturity. The memories or of a young woman who | :51:01. | :51:09. | |
had a purpose and direction in life. My memories of Maxine are fdw and | :51:10. | :51:16. | |
far between. I would love to have memories of her. I remember how we | :51:17. | :51:30. | |
use to what Thunderbirds together. Watching these programmes hdlp me | :51:31. | :51:38. | |
remember her. Our love for her will never die. We will fight until our | :51:39. | :51:43. | |
dying breath. We know withott any doubt that she would have dhed for | :51:44. | :51:46. | |
anyone of us to get the truth. The families want to know who khlled | :51:47. | :51:51. | |
their loved ones. We want to know what happened in the investhgation. | :51:52. | :51:58. | |
After years of individual b`ttles, the families came together to form | :51:59. | :52:13. | |
the campaign group. I admird her resilience. She has fought this for | :52:14. | :52:21. | |
longer than I have been alive. In June this year, the coroner ruled | :52:22. | :52:26. | |
that on the basis of submissions made by legal teams of thred of the | :52:27. | :52:31. | |
families of the victims, thdre was sufficient reason to resume the | :52:32. | :52:41. | |
inquest. The legal support has been provided free to the victims | :52:42. | :52:45. | |
families. Without the generosity of their lawyers, the inquest would | :52:46. | :52:51. | |
never have been resumed. Today is the 26th of October and the day | :52:52. | :52:55. | |
after tomorrow, on the 28th, submissions are to be made on the | :52:56. | :53:04. | |
scope of the resumed inquest. I will give way. Can I congratulatd her on | :53:05. | :53:09. | |
her speech. She speaks for `ll of us in what she is saying. I hope the | :53:10. | :53:17. | |
Minister will address the month is the families had to wait. The last | :53:18. | :53:25. | |
few months between the inqudst being granted, that shows lack of | :53:26. | :53:29. | |
respectful stop I think an `pology for that extra delay is somdthing | :53:30. | :53:40. | |
that would be useful. The f`milies involved were told only yesterday | :53:41. | :53:45. | |
that arrangements will be m`de for their legal teams to work for | :53:46. | :53:50. | |
another firm and receive legal aid. Does he think that three daxs notice | :53:51. | :53:55. | |
for this matter is sufficient? I want to stress how much I wdlcome | :53:56. | :53:58. | |
the progress that has been lade since I called for this deb`te. The | :53:59. | :54:03. | |
families were still in the position where they had no idea if hd were to | :54:04. | :54:15. | |
be granted funding at all. The resumed inquest was granted in June. | :54:16. | :54:20. | |
The families also applied to the Home Secretary to seek the tse of | :54:21. | :54:28. | |
the Hillsborough funding and administration scheme. The families | :54:29. | :54:31. | |
have been given messages of support along the way, from the Homd | :54:32. | :54:36. | |
Secretary, now the Prime Minister, the new Home Secretary and the | :54:37. | :54:40. | |
Justice Secretary. However, these warm words have proven to bd little | :54:41. | :54:46. | |
else. The legacy of what happened at Hillsborough, for many, marked a | :54:47. | :54:50. | |
turning point in how the falilies of those bereaved or injured in large | :54:51. | :54:55. | |
public disasters would be treated. Lord Wills was speaking in his | :54:56. | :54:59. | |
public advocate Bill in the other place and stated when he met the | :55:00. | :55:04. | |
families of those who died `t Hillsborough in 2009, one mdssage | :55:05. | :55:06. | |
that came through over and over again was that they wanted to find a | :55:07. | :55:10. | |
way to prevent other similarly believed families suffering and | :55:11. | :55:16. | |
having to endure in the way that they had suffered and endurdd for 20 | :55:17. | :55:22. | |
years -- bereaved. The Primd Minister should rightly feel proud | :55:23. | :55:25. | |
in her role for how the Hillsborough families finally got justicd. I am | :55:26. | :55:32. | |
ashamed to see the systemathc problems these families fought | :55:33. | :55:37. | |
against still remains. The current Home Secretary said to fund the | :55:38. | :55:51. | |
Birmingham pub families through the Hillsborough scheme would not be | :55:52. | :55:56. | |
appropriate. The 77 bombings were funded in this way. Even though the | :55:57. | :56:01. | |
scheme was families used is no longer available. The legal aid bill | :56:02. | :56:10. | |
of 2012 remove dead. The bereaved Birmingham families believe they | :56:11. | :56:13. | |
were strung along by the Hole Secretary on this matter and | :56:14. | :56:18. | |
ultimately let down. They tdll me she told them she had writtdn to the | :56:19. | :56:24. | |
Justice Secretary. When Julhe Hamilton and I approached the | :56:25. | :56:28. | |
Justice Secretary in Birmingham she seemed to have no knowledge of the | :56:29. | :56:35. | |
case. The families received a letter from the Justice Secretary saying | :56:36. | :56:42. | |
she could not influence the legal aid decision. With three daxs to go, | :56:43. | :56:48. | |
the families are informed of an arrangement that has strings | :56:49. | :56:52. | |
attached. They feel they have been misled and fobbed off. I asked the | :56:53. | :56:58. | |
Minister to bring in mind these are families who lost relatives. They | :56:59. | :57:03. | |
are just ordinary working-class people who are trying to fight | :57:04. | :57:09. | |
justice in the face of powerful actors who they already do not | :57:10. | :57:13. | |
trust. And the appalling wax the funding for the case has bedn | :57:14. | :57:18. | |
handled pushes them, and I have to see me, into really doubting that | :57:19. | :57:23. | |
those in power want to see justice done. Like with Hillsborough before | :57:24. | :57:30. | |
them, this is a David and Goliath fight. The former chief coroner who | :57:31. | :57:35. | |
will chair of the resumed inquest, called for parity of funding in | :57:36. | :57:39. | |
inquests where there is state involvement. And grateful to my | :57:40. | :57:46. | |
lovable friend. She is making a valuable contribution here `re. In | :57:47. | :57:50. | |
terms of seeking parity, wotldn t it be useful to know just how luch | :57:51. | :57:54. | |
public money is being made `vailable to the police and other govdrnment | :57:55. | :57:59. | |
agencies to fund their legal costs in this situation, and how that | :58:00. | :58:05. | |
compares to the help being given to the families? I thank him for that | :58:06. | :58:12. | |
intervention. I agree with him and also the chair of the resumdd | :58:13. | :58:16. | |
inquest calls for exactly the same level of parity in his annu`l | :58:17. | :58:22. | |
report. Parity of funding mdans rates available to other parties. | :58:23. | :58:26. | |
West Midlands Police have apparently set aside ?1 million so far. Former | :58:27. | :58:32. | |
police officers will be represented through the Police Federation. | :58:33. | :58:35. | |
Government departments will no doubt be represented by lawyers from the | :58:36. | :58:41. | |
private sector. Tonight, I `sk whether legal aid for relathves of | :58:42. | :58:46. | |
these victims is appropriatd or sufficient. I accept it might be | :58:47. | :58:50. | |
appropriate in many circumstances, but Hillsborough is a successful | :58:51. | :58:54. | |
model and no explanation as to why it cannot be replicated herd in this | :58:55. | :58:59. | |
case or in fact in future c`ses of this kind has been given. This is in | :59:00. | :59:06. | |
the gift of the Home Secret`ry and the Prime Minister. | :59:07. | :59:11. |