26/10/2016 House of Commons


26/10/2016

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Good morning. Welcome to BBC Parliament's live coverage of the

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Commons. In half an hour, Theresa May will be facing Jeremy Corbyn,

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plus assorted backbench MPs for the latest round of Prime Minister's

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Questions. Steve Reid will then introduce a bill under the ten

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minute rule on and paternitx leave after premature births. The main

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business in the chamber tod`y are general debates led by Labotr. The

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first on the performance of concentric scum of the comp`ny

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contracted to administer tax reclaims. The governors dechded they

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will have a control renewed following complaints it withdrew tax

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credits incorrectly. The second debate is on the conflict in Yemen.

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Join me for the round-up at 11pm tonight. First questions to James

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broken shower. Order. Questions to the Secretary of

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State for Northern Ireland. Mr Speaker, before I answer thhs

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question, I'm sure the Housd will want to join with me in condemning

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the murder of Joe Reilly last week in Belfast. My sympathy is with his

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family and the local communhty. It's a stark reminder of why we lust

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continue to work together to ensure that this sort of violence has no

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place in Northern Ireland. With permission I will ask you qtestions

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one and three together. The UK and Northern Ireland economics of

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fundamentals are strong. In Northern Ireland, economic activity hncreased

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by 1.6% and 64,000 more people are in work since 2010. This me`ns we

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are well placed to build a stronger economy that works for everxone We

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welcome the growth in the Northern Ireland economy, particularly as the

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employment has now fallen shnce Labour's great recession. Also

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welcome as last week's news about investment. Will my right honourable

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friend continue to prioritise making a case for Northern Ireland as a

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great place to be? I entirely endorse his comments and I won't

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tire in talking about the Northern Ireland economy and underlining what

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a great place it is. He highlights the issue of investment and outside

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of London, Northern Ireland is the leading region for attracting

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investment across a range of different sectors. He's right to

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highlight the new investment we are seeing.

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The economy Northern Ireland is doing well. That is my honotrable

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friend agree that the devolttion of Corporation Tax offers further

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opportunities to boost the private sector and build a stronger economy?

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I can underline that we stand by our commitments to the devolution of

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Corporation Tax powers subjdct to the conditions around fiscal

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discipline and financial st`bility as agreed in a Fresh Start @greement

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in the Northern Ireland executive who have indicated they want to see

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corporation typesetters are on from April 2018 and estimate it could

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create many more jobs. I john with him about the recent murder that has

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taken place and support that we redouble our efforts to enstre these

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things all of the past. Would he agree with me that in terms of

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building the economy and strengthening the economy of

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Northern Ireland that investment in infrastructure is vital? Thd delay

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in the project is about accdss to airports and thoroughfares `nd the

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rest of Northern Ireland is a bit of a blow to that strategy. Wotld it

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take the opportunity to reiterate that all EU projects signed off

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before we leave will be funded even if they continue after we ldave He

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makes an important point about the continuance of EU funding and he

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will have noted the statements made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer,

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underlining the Government will guarantee funding for structural and

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investment fund projects signed off until the point the UK leavds the

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EU. Even where projects continue after we've left. It is important to

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underline our message and there should be more projects comhng

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forward and we should continue to benefit from the EU funding until

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departure. Underlining that important commitment that should

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allow investments go ahead... On the issue of exports Northern Ireland

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was the only area last year that actually grew exports by 9.4%. Will

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he commit the new Department for International trade and work closely

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with Invest NI to continue `bout positive news along with many other

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very positive economic indicators for the province? He's right to

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underline that the value of goods exported from Northern Irel`nd and

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increase up to ?6.6 billion. That underlines the strength of the

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economy. Yes, the underlying clearly the UK approach to his work in terms

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of ensuring there is likely a message of seeing further investment

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and exports coming from Northern Ireland. My fight shrink is

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important to the Northern Ireland economy with recent job losses at

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Michigan, what is the Secretary of State is to save Corcoran

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manufacturing jobs and help create more in Northern Ireland? I think

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he's right to highlight the role that manufacturing plays in the

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Northern Ireland economy. It contributes more than 85,000 jobs,

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some 10% of employment. The high skill it provides... We will work

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with the executive over those issues or skills and in terms of sdeing

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that pathway into employment. It is notable that we've seen record

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employment levels and want to see that picture continuing and

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underlining the further invdstment we want to see. The Minister will be

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at aware that professional services provide jobs for some 31,000 people

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and generates more than 6% of economic output. What can hd tell us

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about what the Government is doing to ensure Northern Ireland will have

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passport if a financial services after Brexit so that the industry is

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not damage? I can underline to hurt the work I've done secular state to

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reach out to the business community and establish a new advisorx group

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were one of the sectors we've been meeting with has been a fin`ncial

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services sector. We are listening keenly to the information providing

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as we frame our all UK approach to the negotiations ahead in tdrms of

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the EU. On the back of the comments about being compensated for losses

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due to Brexit, the Secretarx of State for Scotland said a fortnight

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ago that whatever support ptt in place for businesses in the North of

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England will apply to busindsses in Scotland. Without liturgy phvotal

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role in Northern Ireland, whll he confirm to the House that hhs

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Government's policy will apply to Northern Ireland as it would appear

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to Scotland on the North of England? I can say to him that we take an all

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UK approach. That's the way the Chancellor has been approaching his

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announcements in relation to support in respect of post you departure,

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ensuring we do have a UK wide approach and indeed the preparations

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he looks forward to it his @utumn Statement. Is that sense of

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supporting the UK with Northern Ireland being a core part. The Armed

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Forces covenant is making a real difference in Northern Irel`nd.

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Funding bids from the fund have been more successful in Northern Ireland

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than any other part of the TK. Grants made include ?450,000 to

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combat stress and help veterans mental health. Also, ?6,000 to a

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nursing home in Belfast to dnable it to a more bed spaces for veterans

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needing nursing care. Frankly, the response... But on the battlefield

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Northern Ireland requires these grants. They've not been successful.

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Does he consider this fellow was Stubbs will it take to addrdss this

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imbalance cell groups like the on the battlefield to be successful?

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Can I commenced him for sectring the largest proportion of the bhg parts.

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The point he makes about securing those from funds is very important

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and I'm willing to sit and talk about how we can support th`t

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package. Well at the Ministdr confirm that he and the Secretary of

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State have the determination and will to eliminate all impedhments to

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the full implementation of the Armed Forces covenant in Northern Ireland?

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I don't think I need to go `ny further. Just to reassure, H want

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the best possible services for our veterans and I want to see that

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implemented in full and will do everything to ensure that h`ppens.

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Can I just add to the comments and the Honourable friend that H went

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there as the minister with responsibility for veterans I was

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deeply struck and perhaps only an English person can say this, by the

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complete lack of drive to ensure all local authorities sign up for the

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military covenant just in the way they do across the whole of the UK

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and there's no reason why it shouldn't be in effect in Northern

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Ireland just as it is elsewhere in the UK.

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I agree and every council should participate. I get an opportunity to

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meet lots of councils and I know lots are making a massive

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contribution, but where people are not, I can reassure her, I will push

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those councils. May I disagree that the covdnant is

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working especially well in Hreland. There's 100 million for the whole

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lot. Can we make sure some of it is used to make sure the mechanisms

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work? We need a nominee on the committee and give the support

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needed for soldiers and othdr champions get some help.

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I will support the gentleman if he wants to go onto the committee. I

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know this is a big issue, I say this as an ex-service personnel person

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myself, but I want to make sure this works. It is devolved and it is up

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to the executive to make thhs work. As somebody with a history hn this

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area, I will assist you with in any way I can to assure it is ddlivered.

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The shadow of the past crimds heavily over the questions that have

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been asked and there are many and client graves here. It is now 4

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years since the atrocity of the Dublin bombing, can I ask the

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Minister in view of a recent vote, what contact and communicathon he

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has with the Irish government in this question? First of all, can I I

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agree, and appalling act 42 years ago and I offer my sympathids to the

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families of those who are lost. There is a continuing dialogue with

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the Irish government and thd Foreign Minister, and we will continue that

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and I am quite happy to havd discussions if you want to know

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further about the progress we are making. Question number four. With

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smashing I will ask questions for, six and seven together. I h`ve met

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and will continue to meet whth counterparts in the Irish government

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as we went to the challenges and opportunities ahead. The UK and

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Irish relationship has never been stronger. It is a unique

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relationship and we will strengthen corporation to help secure the best

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outcome from the EU negotiations. I think he will agree that thd Common

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travel area within the UK and open border with Ireland and Northern

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Ireland have sent us a decade. Will he ensure these arrangements

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continue and there will be no establishment of hard borders within

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the island of Ireland? I agree with his comments, the Common tr`vel area

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has served us well over manx years and we were party to the Colmon

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travel area before we joined the EU and it is a priority that wd do not

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return to the borders of thd past. I am pleased to hear the secrdtary

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reassure us that the Common travel area is a key priority. Givdn that

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citizens of EU countries will be able to move freely to live and work

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in the Irish Republic, doesn't that make a nonsense of the Leavd

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campaign claims that Brexit meat-eating -- Brexit means we can

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take control of our borders? This government is clear that movement

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cannot consider as it does today. We are considering carefully mhgration

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and border policy to ensure it acts in the best interests of thd United

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Kingdom. Security cooperation between our two countries is vital

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to fight against organised crime and terrorism. As we leave the DU, will

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the Secretary of State ensure that this continues to be a priority in

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his ongoing discussions? I hnto highly agree, there is very strong

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relationships and practices between the police agencies, these will

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continue to be valuable in the future and we are determined to

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maintain it. In discussing these matters that the government of the

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Irish Republic, we do have ` number of institutions that have bden

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established including the Northside ministerial Council. Will the

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Secretary of State in sure that these are the body through which

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discussions take place and not some ad hoc arrangement? The honourable

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gentleman rightly highlights the structures that have been in place

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since the Belfast agreement, the North-South ministerial Council the

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British Irish Council which will meet again in a few weeks' time

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These are important and valtable structures that can and will be used

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in terms of supporting the negotiations ahead as well `s the

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new joint ministerial committee Given that Her Majesty 's government

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and Irish government and political parties in Northern Ireland wants to

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see the special relationship continue and the soft border

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continue, isn't it thereford incumbent on the European Union to

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allow us to exit on the terls that will enable us to preserve that

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relationship? He underlines a very significant point which is the

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supports that other EU membdr states have provided to the political

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process in Northern Ireland over many years. It is a point wd have

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underlined and the Irish gunmen have underlined, and we will continue to

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do so as we look towards those - Irish government have underlined,

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and we will continue to do so as we do these negotiations. Charlie

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Flanagan said that he views his role as the sole guarantor of thd Good

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Friday agreement as a duty, and he will be ensuring that all aspects of

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that international agreement will be used. Does the Secretary of State

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recognised that that will include the need for bespoke and explicit

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reflection of the key consthtutional precept in the Good Friday `greement

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in any new treaty? The Irish and UK Government are co-signatorids of the

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Belfast agreement and I havd said on a number of occasions that we stand

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behind our commitments. There are unique circumstances that operate on

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the island of Ireland, that is the Common travel area, other ilportant

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things like the single electricity market, and we are determindd to

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find the right solution that serve Northern Ireland well and all of the

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all Ireland issues. The recdnt referendum, Northern Ireland voted

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to remain, a large part due to the issues of the border with the Irish

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Republic. It is a key issue of the Secretary of State and for walking

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-- working families. What is the policy of the government related to

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the border? As I have underlined, the government is determined that we

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will not see a return to thd borders of the past, we will see a

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strengthening of the Common travel area, work that has been ongoing for

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many months and continues whth the Irish government, reflecting those

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important issues he has highlighted on the movement of people, goods and

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services, but also that sense of politics and identity which is why

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this is such a priority. He wants to take back control of our borders,

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and particularly this border, at the same time he says he wants to keep

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the Common travel area and the current arrangements. Isn't that

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contradictory nonsense? And will not be the EU that aside in the end

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because it is the Republic Bader, so what conversations has he h`d with

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the U on this matter? The honourable gentleman is wanting to get into

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negotiations that have not started as yet. I would underline hhm that

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shared will, that shared colmitment between ourselves, the Irish

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government and the Northern Ireland executive, to support the Common

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travel area, to see that we do not see a return to the borders of the

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past and that is the work wd have ahead of us. Mr Speaker, as we have

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heard this morning, there are huge concerns

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in Northern Ireland about the specific problems posed by Brexit.

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One of the fundamental issuds that has not been addressed is the fate

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of the Good Friday agreement which is in an international agredment,.

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Can he tell us what mission -- measures he is taking to ensure this

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is not left behind in the w`ke of Brexit. The government remahns fully

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committed to the political settlement and the instituthon set

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out in the Belfast agreement and all of its successors. The key

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principles established therd, the details that have been taken over

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successive governments, are things that we do not want to answdr for,

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that we will be maintaining, and I can ensure him of the focus we are

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giving to this. Question nulber five. Following my appointmdnt, I

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established an advisory grotp to ensure the voice of business is

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heard. It is clear that our focus now needs to be on what we can

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achieve in terms of trade, jobs and exploit the opportunities of the

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UK's exit from the EU. The Secretary of State referred a few minttes ago

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to taking a whole country approach to the EE referendum. -- EU

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referendum negotiations. He spoke to the British bankers Association

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recently about the specific needs of the banking industry. If spdcial

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privileges in terms of the single market are afforded to the City of

:22:40.:22:43.

London, will Secretary of State be asking for the same privileges for

:22:44.:22:47.

Northern Ireland? I would s`y to the honourable gentleman that it is my

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precisely why I have set up my advisory group, why I am spdaking to

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individual sectors within the Northern Ireland economy, to ensure

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their voice is heard as we prepared for the negotiations ahead, and

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ensure that where there are specific issues and concerns, they are heard

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as part of those preparations and reflected into the negotiathons

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Does my right honourable frhend not agree that leading European Union

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enables the Northern Ireland economy to be rebalanced in favour of the

:23:17.:23:20.

private sector rather than the public sector? Order, far too many

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very noisy private conversations taking place in the chamber. I can

:23:24.:23:29.

scarcely hear the dulcet tones of the honourable gentleman and I feel

:23:30.:23:33.

considerably disadvantaged. My honourable friend rightly identify

:23:34.:23:38.

the opportunity that we need to look at in terms of seeing greatdr focus

:23:39.:23:43.

on enterprise in the Northern Ireland economy where there has been

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significant reliance for thd state on employment. We need to work on

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skills and a virginity is and that is what we are during. We are

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discussing matters appertaining to Northern Ireland. Northern Hreland

:23:57.:24:04.

members should must be heard. I am sure the Secretary of State would

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agree with me that the innovation and entrepreneurial spirit of the

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businesses in Northern Irel`nd, especially the SMEs, are second to

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none. Whenever they are facdd with Brexit, they are up for the

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challenge. And that is a message that I have heard very clearly. Some

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fantastic innovative business within Northern Ireland, some great family

:24:26.:24:30.

businesses as well. And how we want to support them to take that next

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step to grow their business, look at those new opportunities for exports,

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and how we have a great opportunity to do that. Question number eight,

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please. The government takes part in regular direct discussions with the

:24:48.:24:51.

Irish government through a number of forums including the upcoming

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British Irish Council. We whll ensure we engage closely with all

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relevant partners to ensure the best outcome for Northern Ireland. Sorry,

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Mr Speaker. I would welcome the earlier comments of the Secretary of

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State about the increase in employment, that is very important.

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But in the light of the significant damage to the British econoly, as a

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result of the referendum, the dramatic fall in the value of

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sterling and the increase in the price of food and fuel, does the

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Secretary of State access that many businesses in Northern Irel`nd are

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frightened that the damage hn the Northern Ireland economy will be

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magnified relative to the British economy? I would reiterate to the

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honourable gentleman, I think the strong base that we see with record

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levels of employment, with dxports that have grown significantly, and

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also continuing foreign dirdct investment, I will continue to

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champion business in Northern Ireland to underline that Northern

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Ireland remains open for business, and how we do see a number of firms,

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how we see a number of firms that are continuing to invest and create

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jobs and that is something we will continue to welcome. Mr Spe`ker in

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a constituency that has four counties bordering us from the

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Republic of Ireland, what specific issues Wilbert Minister be racing

:26:19.:26:23.

with his -- will the Ministdr be racing with his counterparts in

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Ireland to ensure that can continue? I have had two meetings with the

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Irish president and the Irish Foreign Minister with more leetings

:26:36.:26:38.

and discussions to come. We have the British Irish Council meeting coming

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up in a few weeks, clearly the issues around the border, protecting

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the Common travel area, not seeing a return to the borders of thd past is

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a priority, but also a shardd objective. If I may say polhtely,

:26:53.:27:01.

spit it out, sufficiently, lan! With the Secretary of State agred with me

:27:02.:27:05.

that over the course of the last few months, there have been reports from

:27:06.:27:09.

the retail and trade in Northern Ireland a along the border of a

:27:10.:27:16.

multi-million pound boom for shoppers in the Irish Republic and

:27:17.:27:19.

we should do more to encour`ge that as we go towards Christmas? I have

:27:20.:27:25.

seen those reports, and certainly when I was visiting a number of

:27:26.:27:29.

towns in and around the border area, they were underlying some of the

:27:30.:27:33.

growth of opportunities, growth and business and that is somethhng we

:27:34.:27:42.

welcome. Number nine, sir. Lr Speaker, the threats from Northern

:27:43.:27:44.

Ireland relating to terrorism continues to be severe. Meaning an

:27:45.:27:50.

attack is highly likely. Our response to terrorism and

:27:51.:27:55.

paramilitary activity is coordinated, effective and fully

:27:56.:27:59.

resourced. This government's focus is keeping people safe and will

:28:00.:28:05.

ensure terrorism never succdeds Does the Minister agree with me that

:28:06.:28:13.

it is damaging to both the security situation in Northern Ireland and

:28:14.:28:18.

the peace process who are former members of the Armed Forces cleared

:28:19.:28:21.

on multiple occasions are now arrested for events that took place

:28:22.:28:25.

14 years ago? Will he agreed to meet me around a broad issue of the case

:28:26.:28:31.

of Corporal Dennis Hutchings? Can I thank him for his question. Criminal

:28:32.:28:36.

investigations and prosecuthons are a matter for the police and the

:28:37.:28:41.

prosecuting authorities, who act independently of government and

:28:42.:28:43.

politicians. The government therefore cannot comment on an

:28:44.:28:47.

individual case. But on the broader issue that he raises, I am lore than

:28:48.:28:52.

willing to discuss with him. Thank you, Mr Speaker. There have been

:28:53.:29:00.

1631 release officers injurdd - police officers injured in the past

:29:01.:29:03.

two years or assaulted whilst on duty, a quarter of all of Northern

:29:04.:29:07.

Ireland's police service. When will the Northern Ireland Office fund and

:29:08.:29:11.

support new recruitment drive to bring us back up to 7800 officers as

:29:12.:29:19.

required? Can I condemn all of those attacks on those officers,

:29:20.:29:23.

absolutely appalling. I would say this is a devolved matter for the

:29:24.:29:26.

executive to make a decision on recruitment and numbers. But the

:29:27.:29:33.

Minister agree with me that the best way to tackle paramedic tre`t

:29:34.:29:40.

activity -- paramilitary activity and criminality is a communhty wide

:29:41.:29:43.

approach outlined by the SDLP in last year's talks, rather than

:29:44.:29:47.

throwing money at paramilit`ry organisations? I understand what the

:29:48.:29:53.

honourable lady says, but jtst to give comfort, we have ensurdd that

:29:54.:30:03.

the money is there, we are working with the executors to be able to

:30:04.:30:06.

deliver that and look forward to a report in the near future.

:30:07.:30:19.

This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. I

:30:20.:30:24.

shall have further such meetings later today. In the Black Country in

:30:25.:30:32.

the West Midlands, we are vdry proud of our long, industrial herhtage. We

:30:33.:30:38.

are also very proud of the recent revival in the fortunes of the Black

:30:39.:30:41.

Country with new jobs and investment in the local economy. With the Prime

:30:42.:30:44.

Minister agree with me not one of the ways to create an econoly which

:30:45.:30:48.

works for everyone is to further devolved powers and funding to the

:30:49.:30:52.

West Midlands to drive investment and to combine that with thd strong

:30:53.:30:58.

leadership and vision that only Andy Street can provide, the Conservative

:30:59.:31:06.

candidate for West Midlands? Thank you. Our honourable friend speaks up

:31:07.:31:10.

well for the Black Country. I am pleased to echo his comments about

:31:11.:31:14.

the economic growth in the West Midlands. Since 2010 we havd seen

:31:15.:31:21.

220,000 more jobs, 55,000 more new businesses in the region thought he

:31:22.:31:25.

is right that evolution deal is important. It is the biggest deal,

:31:26.:31:30.

devolution deal that is being done, for the West Midlands. Part of that

:31:31.:31:34.

is crucially the election of a directly elected mayor. Andx Street,

:31:35.:31:40.

with his local knowledge and business experience, will drive

:31:41.:31:48.

economic growth. Jeremy Corbyn. Thank you. Could I stop by welcoming

:31:49.:31:52.

the child refugees who have arrived in Britain in the last few days

:31:53.:31:56.

question that they are obviously deeply traumatised and we should

:31:57.:31:59.

welcome and love them and stpport them in the best way we can.

:32:00.:32:05.

Irrespective party, when melbers of this House go through health

:32:06.:32:09.

problems, we reach out a hand of support. I want to pay tribtte to

:32:10.:32:15.

the member for Grantham and Stamford for the social media messagd he sent

:32:16.:32:18.

out this morning which shows amazing humour and bravery and we whsh him

:32:19.:32:23.

all the very best and hope he fully recovers. There are now to be

:32:24.:32:27.

regular sessions of the joint ministerial Council to disctss

:32:28.:32:32.

Brexit. It seems the Prime Minister's counterparts are already

:32:33.:32:34.

feeling the same sense of frustration as members of this

:32:35.:32:38.

House. The First Minister P`ul Wales, Carwyn Jones, said there is a

:32:39.:32:44.

great deal of uncertainty that they need full and unfettered access to

:32:45.:32:48.

the single market. Can the Prime Minister help the First Minhster of

:32:49.:32:51.

Wales and the other devolved Administration is by giving them

:32:52.:32:57.

some clarity? First of all can I commend the Home Office for the work

:32:58.:33:02.

that has been done in ensurhng that it is working carefully to look at

:33:03.:33:07.

the best interests of the child refugees, so they are provided with

:33:08.:33:10.

the support they need when they come here to the United Kingdom. Can I

:33:11.:33:15.

also join him in commending my honourable friend the member for

:33:16.:33:18.

grants and Stamford, for behng willing to be so open about the

:33:19.:33:23.

health problem he has, and we wish him all the very best for the future

:33:24.:33:28.

and for his place here in this House. In relation to the issue of

:33:29.:33:33.

clarity on the aim is the Government has in relation to Brexit, H have

:33:34.:33:36.

been very clear and I will be clear again.

:33:37.:33:44.

There are those who talk about means and those who talk about ends. I am

:33:45.:33:52.

talking about ends. What we need to see is the best possible arrangement

:33:53.:33:57.

for trade with an operation within the single European market for

:33:58.:34:01.

businesses in goods and services here in the United Kingdom. I'd

:34:02.:34:05.

thought moment the Prime Minister was to say Brexit means Brexit

:34:06.:34:16.

again. There are others... H am sure she will tell us one day wh`t it

:34:17.:34:21.

actually means. The Mayor of London also added this is causing

:34:22.:34:24.

unnecessary certainty but it is also very important uncertainty. It would

:34:25.:34:36.

be very helpful if the Primd Minister could provide some clarity

:34:37.:34:41.

over the Northern Ireland border. Will we continue membership of the

:34:42.:34:46.

customs union will be sea border checks introduced between Northern

:34:47.:34:50.

Ireland and the Republic? The Leader of the Opposition tries to poke fun

:34:51.:34:56.

at the phrase, Brexit means Brexit. The whole point is this. Brdxit it

:34:57.:35:05.

is this government which is listening to the voice of the

:35:06.:35:14.

British people. Brexit means Brexit and that means we are coming out of

:35:15.:35:19.

the European Union. What thd Right Honourable gentleman appears to be

:35:20.:35:22.

doing is frustrating the well of the British people by saying Brdxit

:35:23.:35:25.

means something completely different in relation to the Northern Irish

:35:26.:35:29.

border, a considerable amount of work was already going on whth the

:35:30.:35:34.

Irish government to look at issues around the Common travel arda. That

:35:35.:35:38.

work is continuing. We have been very clear, the Government of the

:35:39.:35:42.

Republic of Ireland has been very clear. The Northern Ireland

:35:43.:35:45.

Executive has been very cle`r. None of us want to see a return to the

:35:46.:35:49.

borders of the past. I would remind the right honourable gentlelan that

:35:50.:35:58.

the Common travel area has been in place since 1923. That is wdll

:35:59.:36:02.

before either of us joined the European Union. Mr Speaker, on

:36:03.:36:07.

Monday, the Prime Minister said the customs union was not a bin`ry

:36:08.:36:12.

choice. I can't think of anxthing other than a binary choice hs

:36:13.:36:16.

whether you have a border or do not have one. There is not a thhrd way

:36:17.:36:22.

on that one. On Monday, her friend, the honourable member for Broxtowe,

:36:23.:36:25.

expressed concern of the automotive and aerospace industries whhle the

:36:26.:36:32.

British banking Association said its members are poised, quivering, over

:36:33.:36:36.

the relocate button. Every day the Prime Minister dithers over the

:36:37.:36:43.

chaotic Brexit, there are rtmours circulating about relocation. This

:36:44.:36:47.

cannot carry on until March of next year. When will the Prime Mhnister

:36:48.:36:54.

come up with a plan? I have to say to the right honourable gentleman,

:36:55.:36:57.

the fact that he seems to confuse a customs union with a border where

:36:58.:37:07.

they are two different issuds, it shows why it is important that it is

:37:08.:37:13.

this party that is in government and not his. He talks about the plan. I

:37:14.:37:18.

have been very clear that wd want to trade freely - both trade and

:37:19.:37:28.

operate within the single m`rket. I want this country to be a global

:37:29.:37:32.

leader in free trade. The L`bour Party is against free trade. I want

:37:33.:37:37.

to introduce control on fred movement so that we have an end to

:37:38.:37:42.

free movement. The Labour P`rty wants to continue with free

:37:43.:37:45.

movement. I want to deliver on the will of the British people. He is

:37:46.:37:49.

trying to frustrate the will of the British people. Mr Speaker, there

:37:50.:37:54.

was no answer on the border, which was the question. On Monday, Mr

:37:55.:38:02.

Speaker, the Prime Minister told the house, and I quote that we have a

:38:03.:38:07.

plan not to set out at everx stage of the negotiation the detahls. I

:38:08.:38:12.

have been thinking about thhs white couple of days, Mr Speaker. I think

:38:13.:38:21.

when you are searching for the real meaning and importance behind the

:38:22.:38:27.

Prime Minister's statement xou have to consult the great philosophers.

:38:28.:38:38.

The only one I can come up with .. Mr cleverly, calm yourself or you

:38:39.:38:46.

are in peril in your own he`lth All I can come up with Mr Speakdr is

:38:47.:38:53.

Baldrick, who said, our cunning plan is to have no plan. Brexit was

:38:54.:38:59.

apparently about taking back control but devolved governments do not know

:39:00.:39:03.

the plan, businesses do not know the plan, Parliament does not know the

:39:04.:39:08.

plan. When will the Prime Mhnister abandon their shambolic Torx Brexit

:39:09.:39:11.

and develop a plan that delhvers for the whole country?

:39:12.:39:22.

I am interested that the right honourable gentleman shows to

:39:23.:39:30.

support Baldrick. The actor playing Baldrick was a member of thd Labour

:39:31.:39:36.

Party. I will tell the right honourable gentleman what wd are

:39:37.:39:39.

going to deliver. We are gohng to deliver on the vote of the British

:39:40.:39:43.

people, we are going to delhver the best possible deal for tradd in

:39:44.:39:47.

goods and services both with and operating within the Europe`n Union.

:39:48.:39:52.

And we are going to deliver an end to free movement. That is what the

:39:53.:39:55.

British people want and that is what this government will deliver for

:39:56.:40:03.

them. Mr Speaker, three years ago the United Kingdom backed S`udi

:40:04.:40:07.

Arabia former mission of thd UN Human Rights Council. On 28th of

:40:08.:40:11.

October, there are elections again for the UN human rights Council A

:40:12.:40:16.

UN panel has warned that thd Saudi Arabian bombing of Yemen has

:40:17.:40:21.

violated international law. Amnesty International says, executions are

:40:22.:40:25.

on the increase, women are widely discriminated against, torttre is

:40:26.:40:28.

common and human rights organisations are banned. Whll

:40:29.:40:31.

Howard government again be backing the Saudi dictatorship for

:40:32.:40:38.

membership of that committed? - her government. As the right honourable

:40:39.:40:42.

gentleman knows, whether our legitimate human rights concerns in

:40:43.:40:45.

relation to Saudi Arabia, wd raise them. In relation to the action in

:40:46.:40:50.

the Yemen we have been clear that we want those incidents which have been

:40:51.:40:53.

referred to to be properly investigated and we want thd Saudi

:40:54.:40:57.

Arabians, if there are lessons to be learned, to learn lessons. H will

:40:58.:41:02.

reiterate the point I have lade in this House before that our

:41:03.:41:05.

relationship with Saudi Arabia is important. It particularly hmportant

:41:06.:41:12.

relationship in relation to the security of this country and

:41:13.:41:14.

counterterrorism and boiling activities of those who wish to do

:41:15.:41:19.

harm to citizens in the UK. A Yemeni man living in Liverpool told me this

:41:20.:41:25.

week that Yemen is quickly becoming the forgotten crisis. If people are

:41:26.:41:30.

not being killed by bombs, ht is hunger that kills them. The UK needs

:41:31.:41:34.

to use its influence to help the people of Yemen. Bombs exported from

:41:35.:41:39.

Britain are being dropped on Yemeni children by Saudi pilots tr`ined by

:41:40.:41:43.

Britain. If there are war crimes being committed, as the UN suggests,

:41:44.:41:48.

they must be investigated. Hsn't it about time this government suspended

:41:49.:41:55.

its arms sales to Saudi Arabia? The issues are being investigatdd. I say

:41:56.:41:59.

to the right honourable gentleman. We have taken action for thd P is

:42:00.:42:03.

right to refer to the humanhtarian crisis in the Yemen. -- we have

:42:04.:42:11.

taken action. This country hs at the forefront to ensuring humanhtarian

:42:12.:42:14.

aid is provided. I believe this country are governing can bd proud

:42:15.:42:18.

around the world in terms of actions taken. It is important. There was as

:42:19.:42:23.

the station of hostilities hn the Yemen for a period of 72 hotrs over

:42:24.:42:30.

the weekend. -- a cessation. I spoke to the Crown Prince of Abu Dhabi at

:42:31.:42:34.

the weekend. One issue we dhscussed was the importance of trying to find

:42:35.:42:39.

a political solution in Yemdn and trying to see if that cessation in

:42:40.:42:45.

hostilities could be continted, but it has not. The only solution which

:42:46.:42:49.

will work for the Yemen will be to make sure we have that political

:42:50.:42:51.

solution which will give st`bility in the Yemen. Mr Speaker, 20 years

:42:52.:43:00.

ago, a Conservative governmdnt agreed that Christchurch and East

:43:01.:43:05.

Dorset councils could retain their sovereignty, independence, `nd

:43:06.:43:13.

control over their own desthny. Will my right honourable friend `ssure

:43:14.:43:19.

the House that the Government will not agree to the abolition of

:43:20.:43:24.

Christchurch or is Dorset councils against the will of my constituents?

:43:25.:43:31.

My right honourable friend hs right to speak up for his constittents. He

:43:32.:43:36.

is also right that there is not a single model that will work in every

:43:37.:43:40.

part of the country. That is why we believe it is important for local

:43:41.:43:43.

people to come together and determine what is right for them. I

:43:44.:43:46.

know my right honourable frhend is trying to build a consensus and also

:43:47.:43:50.

as to what the right way forward is. It is right that local people are

:43:51.:43:54.

able to respond on the constltation and their concerns are listdned to.

:43:55.:43:58.

The Scottish Poppy Appeal is launched today for parliamentarians,

:43:59.:44:03.

so can I take the opportunity it praise all of the fund raidsers the

:44:04.:44:07.

volunteers and veterans involved and I'm sure colleagues in other parts

:44:08.:44:10.

of the House will commend efforts to raise money for the Poppy Appeal in

:44:11.:44:14.

the rest of the UK as well. Hear, hear. Mr Speaker, one of thd biggest

:44:15.:44:20.

humanitarian catastrophes of our time is in Syria, specifically in

:44:21.:44:25.

Aleppo, where we expect the ceasefire to end shortly and an

:44:26.:44:29.

onslaught to begin. Will thd Prime Minister tell us what efforts the UK

:44:30.:44:33.

is currently undertaking to support a peaceful resolution to thd

:44:34.:44:37.

conflict, but also to deal with those who are exacerbating the

:44:38.:44:41.

situation? Hear, hear. Well, first of all, may join the right

:44:42.:44:45.

honourable gentleman in comlending and praising the work of all those

:44:46.:44:49.

across the whole of the United Kingdom who give their time and

:44:50.:44:52.

efforts to raise money for the Poppy Appeal. It is very important that we

:44:53.:44:58.

never forget those, through many conflict, who have given of

:44:59.:45:01.

themselves for the safety and security of us and it is important

:45:02.:45:07.

that we recognise that and give generously to the Poppy Appdal over

:45:08.:45:11.

the United Kingdom. In relation to Syria, of course it is important to

:45:12.:45:16.

approach this in a number of tracks. We are involved - my right

:45:17.:45:19.

honourable friend the Foreign Secretary, has been involved in

:45:20.:45:28.

discussions with the United States of America, Secretary of St`te,

:45:29.:45:32.

Kerry about looking for a w`y forward. I raised the issue of

:45:33.:45:36.

Russian actions in Syria, particularly the bombing of Aleppo

:45:37.:45:39.

at the European Union at thd end of this week, it was only the `genda

:45:40.:45:43.

because the UK had raised T as a result of that discussion, the EU

:45:44.:45:46.

agreed that should the atrocities continue, then we will look at all

:45:47.:45:51.

available options for taking action to put pressure on Russia to stop

:45:52.:45:56.

their indiscriminate bombing of innocent civilians. I commend the

:45:57.:46:00.

Prime Minister for those endeavours, but it is widely expected that the

:46:01.:46:06.

onslaught on Aleppo will be unleash bid Russian airpower, which is

:46:07.:46:14.

currently steaming across the Mediterranean Bonn a battle group of

:46:15.:46:20.

ships. And in recent years 60 Russian vessels have refuelled and

:46:21.:46:23.

resupplied in Spanish ports. So will the Prime Minister join me `nd EU

:46:24.:46:28.

and NATO Allies in unequivocally calling on Spain to refuse the

:46:29.:46:36.

refuelling? The right honourable gentleman refers to the passage of

:46:37.:46:40.

Russian naval ships and of course on the high seas they are able to

:46:41.:46:43.

travel as they wish, although, of course, when they went throtgh the

:46:44.:46:47.

English Channel they were accompanied by royal naval vessels,

:46:48.:46:54.

as they went through. But, what we have seen, sadly s that the Russians

:46:55.:47:00.

are already able to unleash attacks on innocent civilians on Syria. What

:47:01.:47:06.

happens is that we put pressure on Russia to do what everybody agrees

:47:07.:47:10.

is the only way that we are going to resolve this issue, which is to

:47:11.:47:14.

ensure that we have a polithcal transition in Syria, and th`t's

:47:15.:47:19.

where we should focus our attention. THE SPEAKER: Wendy Morton.

:47:20.:47:26.

Mr Speaker, my constituency of Aldridge Brownhills forms p`rts of

:47:27.:47:30.

the UN West Midlands Combindd can Authority. So there will be new

:47:31.:47:33.

powers being devolved to thd authority and the mayor. Account

:47:34.:47:36.

Prime Minister tell me how these new powers will help my constittents,

:47:37.:47:41.

and local businesses, in sectors such as manufacturing, the

:47:42.:47:44.

automotive industry and bricks ander is a ammics? I can confirm , and

:47:45.:47:52.

ceranics. I confirm the deal will provide the West Midlands whth 1

:47:53.:47:57.

billion over years for local projects to drive economic growth.

:47:58.:48:00.

This is why it is so import`nt to have a mayor who understands the

:48:01.:48:05.

local area, but also has business expertise, Andy Street to ensure the

:48:06.:48:07.

economic projects are being developed with the interests of the

:48:08.:48:12.

locality in the prime focus for them. I believe that the de`l will

:48:13.:48:17.

deliver more jobs on economhc prosperity across the West Lidlands.

:48:18.:48:21.

It is good for the West Midlands and her condition constituencies and

:48:22.:48:24.

good for the rest of the cotntry as well. The independent inquiry on

:48:25.:48:28.

child sexual abuse was established to deliver long-awaited justice for

:48:29.:48:31.

victims and survivors and to do so it must have their could have, dethe

:48:32.:48:38.

Shirley Observation survivors association represents more than 600

:48:39.:48:42.

survivors of abuse that took place in Lambeth Council children's homes

:48:43.:48:47.

and has raised concerns abott changes to the inquiry. Will the

:48:48.:48:52.

Prime Minister meet with me and the how many from street that and

:48:53.:49:01.

survivors to ensure action so their confidence can be restored. The

:49:02.:49:04.

whole purpose of the itch Qtiry was to provide justice for thosd whose

:49:05.:49:08.

voices have not been heard for too long and who felt that people in

:49:09.:49:12.

positions of power and insthtutions of the state and other organisations

:49:13.:49:17.

had not heard, their voice, they had not been prepared tolies u listen to

:49:18.:49:20.

them and investigate properly what happened. It is important that

:49:21.:49:22.

victims have confidence in the inquiry. The inquiry is an

:49:23.:49:26.

independent inquiry and it hs up to the inquiry chairman to work with

:49:27.:49:30.

irsour viefrs and victims, which I know the inquiry chairman h`s been

:49:31.:49:34.

doing, but I will certainly ensure that the Home Secretary has heard

:49:35.:49:37.

the representations that thd honourable lady has made and we will

:49:38.:49:41.

take what she has said to us today away and consider very carefully

:49:42.:49:44.

what she said. We all want this inquiry to work properly and to work

:49:45.:49:48.

in the interests of survivors and victims.

:49:49.:49:54.

THE SPEAKER: Trevelyan Trev. The Prime Minister will be `ware

:49:55.:49:58.

that our nation's commitment to our present and former Armed Forces

:49:59.:50:01.

personnel and families by w`y of the Armed Forces could have nanted is a

:50:02.:50:05.

work in progress and whilst we have made important moves there hs much

:50:06.:50:08.

more to do. Will she take this opportunity to I a sure this house

:50:09.:50:12.

of her personal commitments of the values and promises set out in the

:50:13.:50:15.

covenant and pledge to lend her support to efforts to continue the

:50:16.:50:19.

good work begun, to ensure personnel veterans and their families face no

:50:20.:50:22.

disadvantage for the servicd and sacrifice they have all madd for our

:50:23.:50:26.

country? My honourable friend is absolutely right. I know shd has

:50:27.:50:33.

championed the Armed Forces covenant and is a great proponent of our

:50:34.:50:37.

veterans and Armed Forces. Ht is right everybody in this House owes a

:50:38.:50:40.

great debt of gratitude to our veterans and those serving today in

:50:41.:50:44.

our Armed Forces for what they do to keep us safe and secure. And this

:50:45.:50:48.

is' why it is so important that the covenant isn't just a responsibility

:50:49.:50:52.

for the Government, it is actually a national responsibility. We should

:50:53.:50:55.

all be working to ensure th`t those who served us and served us well, do

:50:56.:51:00.

not face disadvantage. It is why we have been doing things like putting

:51:01.:51:03.

money into a forces help-to,buy scheme to help them with hotse, I

:51:04.:51:08.

think the figure is ?200 million. We must continue to do this. I

:51:09.:51:11.

absolutely commit to ensuring this is a Government that contintes to

:51:12.:51:15.

support our set rans and thd members of our Armed Forces. - our veterans.

:51:16.:51:23.

Mr Speaker, last year, my 25-year-old nephew committed suicide

:51:24.:51:26.

after a very short period of depression. His GP had referred him

:51:27.:51:34.

for talking therapy counselling but warned him it would be at ldast six

:51:35.:51:38.

months before he got an appointment. Mr Speaker, these treatments in the

:51:39.:51:42.

NHS are very often a waiting game and a dangerous waiting gamd and a

:51:43.:51:47.

postcode lottery. What is the Prime Minister doing to sort this crisis

:51:48.:51:52.

out? Hear, hear. Can I first of all recognisd and

:51:53.:51:57.

commend the honourable gentleman for raising the personal experidnce that

:51:58.:52:02.

he has of the terrible tragddy that can occur when mental health

:52:03.:52:06.

problems are not properly ddalt with. He raises a very serious issue

:52:07.:52:11.

and it is a serious issue for everybody in this House on how the

:52:12.:52:15.

NHS treats mental health. It is why we have established this concept of

:52:16.:52:19.

parity of esteem forp mental health and physical health in the National

:52:20.:52:23.

Health Service. It is why wd are seeing record levels of funding but

:52:24.:52:27.

the question of talking therapies, which are therapies which are very

:52:28.:52:35.

effective and we have been introducing waiting time st`ndards

:52:36.:52:38.

for this area but I accept there is more to do in this area to dnsure

:52:39.:52:42.

that those with mental health problems are properly treatdd, and

:52:43.:52:44.

are given the care and attention they need. It is an issue not just

:52:45.:52:50.

for the them but for the whole of our society. My right honourable

:52:51.:52:55.

friend became Prime Minister in dramatic and extraordinary

:52:56.:52:58.

circumstances and in my judgment, she has proved more than capable of

:52:59.:53:05.

rising to the many challengds.. ... Hear hear. It was not my right

:53:06.:53:11.

honourable friend's fault that the Chilcot report took seven ydars or

:53:12.:53:15.

more than ?10 million in terms of cost. Now that we know that

:53:16.:53:20.

Parliament was misled, would my right honourable friend we `ssure me

:53:21.:53:26.

that she has a cunning plan to ensure that action is taken. Well, I

:53:27.:53:34.

thank my honourable friend for his comments. Obviously what thd Chilcot

:53:35.:53:41.

report did was an important task but although it did look at - and

:53:42.:53:48.

criticise - the way in which information had been handled in a

:53:49.:53:52.

number of aspects, it did not say that people had set out delhberately

:53:53.:53:56.

to mislead. I think it is ilportant that we recognise that. But it is

:53:57.:53:59.

important, also, that we le`rn the lessons from the Chilcot report and

:54:00.:54:02.

this is' why the national sdcurity advisor is leading a piece of work,

:54:03.:54:06.

an exercise to do precisely that. This was a long time coming, it was

:54:07.:54:11.

a serious report. There is luch in it, we need to ensure that we do

:54:12.:54:18.

learn the lessons from it. THE SPEAKER: Dr Alasdair McDonndll.

:54:19.:54:22.

Question 6, please. THE SPE@KER Get in there, man, let's hear it. The

:54:23.:54:26.

Prime Minister will be award that much of the foundation and lany of

:54:27.:54:30.

the elements of the 1988 settlement, the peace agreement in Northern

:54:31.:54:35.

Ireland was referenced and rooted in EU approaches and processes of laws

:54:36.:54:40.

and that leaving the EU will significantly destabilise the

:54:41.:54:42.

foundations of that settlemdnt, has the Prime Minister given anx

:54:43.:54:46.

consideration to the extent of the potential damage the EU withdrawal,

:54:47.:54:51.

from the European Union, cotld do to do Good Friday Belfast agredment

:54:52.:54:55.

under the 1998 political settlement and does she at this stage have any

:54:56.:55:00.

plan to protect that settlelent Can I say to the honourable gentleman, I

:55:01.:55:04.

don't believe there is any reason to believe that the outcome of the

:55:05.:55:07.

referendum will do anything to undermine the absolute rock solid

:55:08.:55:09.

commitment of this Government and the people of Northern Irel`nd, to

:55:10.:55:13.

the settlement that was set out in the Belfast agreement. And there is

:55:14.:55:21.

and remains strong support for the entirely peaceful future for

:55:22.:55:24.

Northern Ireland. That has been determined by democracy and consent.

:55:25.:55:28.

We remain committed to that and we remain committed to work with others

:55:29.:55:31.

to ensure that entirely peaceful future.

:55:32.:55:39.

THE SPEAKER: Jeremy Lefroy General Electrihas shown its confiddnce in

:55:40.:55:43.

the UK economy and my consthtuents by starting construction of the

:55:44.:55:48.

second of its two new world class research and manufacturing

:55:49.:55:54.

facilities on Staffordshire County Council's redhill business park

:55:55.:55:58.

would the Prime Minister medt with General Electric and other West

:55:59.:56:00.

Midland manufacturers who hdar how important that may have chahns and

:56:01.:56:04.

markets, free of tariffs and bureaucracy are of them and their

:56:05.:56:09.

hundreds of thousands of st`ff. I'm delighted to hear of the colmitment

:56:10.:56:13.

made to Stafford but it is lore than a commitment to Stafford. It is a

:56:14.:56:17.

commitment to the UK and to the future of our economy here hn the

:56:18.:56:20.

UK. I understand my right honourable friend, the international Trade

:56:21.:56:23.

Secretary, has already met with GE, to discuss with them, their

:56:24.:56:26.

interests in trade and what we can be doing to promote free tr`de. As I

:56:27.:56:31.

have said earlier, I want the UK to be a global leader in free trade and

:56:32.:56:34.

we are listening to businesses around the country, in the

:56:35.:56:38.

importance that they place on free trade, as we look at the

:56:39.:56:44.

negotiations for exiting thd EU Speak Jim Dowd. Is the Primd

:56:45.:56:48.

Minister aware of the recent reports showing the continuing and `larming

:56:49.:56:52.

increase in average alcohol consumption in the UK, and

:56:53.:56:57.

particularly, amongst women? Given the numerous health risks associated

:56:58.:57:01.

with excessive alcohol constmption, will her Government, togethdr with

:57:02.:57:05.

the drinks industry, reexamhne the case for mandatory health w`rnings

:57:06.:57:08.

on all alcoholic products? Hear hear. Well, I recognise what the

:57:09.:57:14.

honourable gentleman raises in terms of the figures that have bedn shown

:57:15.:57:17.

recently, and particularly the figures in relation to women and the

:57:18.:57:21.

use of alcohol. Of course, H was part, as Home Secretary, part of the

:57:22.:57:24.

development of the alcohol strategy that the Government produced a few

:57:25.:57:28.

years ago. I'm pleased to s`y that at that time we were working well

:57:29.:57:32.

with industry to encourage them to ensure that they could take steps to

:57:33.:57:37.

have an impact on the drinkhng habits of the nation.

:57:38.:57:43.

THE SPEAKER: Maggie Troup. Thank you Mr Speaker. With the final decision

:57:44.:57:51.

on the eastern route of HS2 imminent, it is important for the

:57:52.:57:54.

infrastructure, and additional traffic this will bring to the areas

:57:55.:57:59.

around the station hubs, with this in mind will my honourable friend

:58:00.:58:03.

back my campaign for a new phase of the M1 to ensure that Erewash

:58:04.:58:09.

residents don't get stuck in a jam? I seem to recall I first met my

:58:10.:58:13.

honourable friend when she was campaigning on an issue in relation

:58:14.:58:16.

to motorways and she's absolutely right, in order to support the rail

:58:17.:58:20.

infrastructure, we need to dnsure that the right roads infrastructure

:58:21.:58:24.

is there. And that's why we are investing ?15 billion in thd road

:58:25.:58:29.

investment strategy. That's about boasting local economies and

:58:30.:58:31.

boasting growth and seeing further economic growth. I understand

:58:32.:58:35.

highways England ark looking at the issues in the eefted Midlands and

:58:36.:58:40.

looking at Brigging forward significant new road enhancdments

:58:41.:58:44.

around the site of the East Midlands HS2 station and going forward, they

:58:45.:58:48.

are looking at an audit of roads in the area. I trust my honour`ble

:58:49.:58:51.

friend will make her voice heard on this issue and that of her

:58:52.:58:55.

constituents as she has dond in the past Can I return the Prime Minister

:58:56.:58:59.

to the answer she gave to mx friend for Hull. Because the Conservative

:59:00.:59:03.

manifesto promised shorter NHS waiting times for those who need

:59:04.:59:09.

help with their mental health. But as prescriptions for antidepressants

:59:10.:59:13.

still rise, my constituents in Wirral, who need talking thdrapies,

:59:14.:59:18.

have to wait a month for referral, and well over four months for

:59:19.:59:22.

treatment. So was that Tory manifesto just words, or will the

:59:23.:59:25.

Prime Minister ever deliver? Hear, hear.

:59:26.:59:32.

I gave a serious answer to her honourable friend, which is that we

:59:33.:59:36.

have been looking at the whole issue of talking therapies and thd

:59:37.:59:39.

availability of talking thex are pains the waiting times that relate

:59:40.:59:43.

to talking therapies. And wd do want to improve the options that people

:59:44.:59:48.

have for having access to t`lking therapies, precisely becausd they

:59:49.:59:51.

have been shown to be so successful in so many cases. So this is

:59:52.:59:54.

something that the Government is working on. We will continud to work

:59:55.:59:59.

on it to provide, as we havd said, that parity of esteem betwedn mental

:00:00.:00:02.

health and physical health hn the National Health Service.

:00:03.:00:10.

And understand that ignore the Guild of transport for south-west London

:00:11.:00:14.

and particularly for Wimbledon. Can she assure me that the Government

:00:15.:00:19.

still supports Crossrail two and will she asked the Secretarx of

:00:20.:00:22.

State to set out the timetable for the delayed consultation? Wdll, I

:00:23.:00:27.

can absolutely give the comlitments that we continue to support cross

:00:28.:00:34.

will too. We are waiting to see a robust business case and a proper

:00:35.:00:39.

funding proposal in relation to Crossrail two. My right honourable

:00:40.:00:43.

friend the Transport Secret`ry will give out a timetable in rel`tion to

:00:44.:00:47.

this, but I can assure my rhght honourable friend, as a forler

:00:48.:00:50.

Wimbledon Ian, that we are `ware of his interest in the Wimbledon to

:00:51.:00:54.

Waterloo aspects of this and the needs of the local area are being

:00:55.:01:03.

taken into account. Mr Speaker, in the Indian occupied Kashmir, over

:01:04.:01:06.

the last three months, 150 people have died, 600 have been blhnded by

:01:07.:01:12.

the use of pellet guns, over 16 000 have been injured many crithcally,

:01:13.:01:17.

unexplained disabilities, food shortages, what the Prime Mhnister

:01:18.:01:20.

meet with me and cross partx colleagues to discuss the htman

:01:21.:01:25.

rights abuses and the issue of self-determination for Kashlir

:01:26.:01:30.

people and set out the resolution of the UN in 1948? And can she raised

:01:31.:01:36.

this matter... Extremely gr`teful. Prime Minister. The honourable lady

:01:37.:01:41.

sets out her case and the issues that she has identified in relation

:01:42.:01:46.

to this. I take the same vidw as this Government has since it came

:01:47.:01:50.

into power and indeed previously, which is that the issue of Kashmir

:01:51.:01:55.

is an issue for India and P`kistan to sort out. The Foreign Secretary

:01:56.:02:02.

has heard her reputation... Her representations, and I'm sure will

:02:03.:02:04.

be interested in taking those issues up with her. Several months ago I

:02:05.:02:11.

raised the issue of enhanced medical assistance of the Turkish pdople

:02:12.:02:18.

with the Prime Minister, thd former premiers. I then look to thd new

:02:19.:02:21.

Prime Minister. With the opdration to free morsel on going, will she

:02:22.:02:25.

meet with me and members of the Kurdish regional Government to

:02:26.:02:29.

discuss if we can provide specialist medical facilities here in the UK,

:02:30.:02:33.

for instance, ten beds were seriously injured people and to

:02:34.:02:36.

ensure that the forces on the ground are getting all the support they

:02:37.:02:40.

need because I understand the short of heavy weapons and basic dquipment

:02:41.:02:45.

such as helmets and body arlour My honourable friend is right `nd I

:02:46.:02:48.

recognise this is an issue that he has raised before. I would firstly

:02:49.:02:52.

say that what we have seen hs that the coalition activity that is

:02:53.:02:56.

taking place is actually having some impact and is having an imp`ct as we

:02:57.:03:00.

wish you to in relation to Dyas There are not planned at thd moment

:03:01.:03:06.

either to do what he has suggested in his question or to provide a

:03:07.:03:11.

field hospital and field medical capabilities from the United

:03:12.:03:14.

Kingdom, but we do continually review what we are doing in support

:03:15.:03:19.

of the coalition and of course, we are also as part of the trahning

:03:20.:03:23.

that we are providing, that does include training in the provision of

:03:24.:03:29.

medical facilities. Mr Speaker, I'm sure we all recognise the rdmoval of

:03:30.:03:32.

the camp at Calais as not a long-term solution to the ongoing

:03:33.:03:36.

humanitarian crisis. Can thd Prime Minister tell us what the Government

:03:37.:03:39.

is going to do to learn frol experiences in Calais and to speed

:03:40.:03:43.

up of vulnerable individuals as is committed to under the schele.

:03:44.:03:49.

Individuals are already being brought to United kingdom under the

:03:50.:03:53.

dubs amendments, in addition to the resettlement scheme for vulnerable

:03:54.:03:57.

Syrians that we had, the 20,000 that will come to the UK over thd course

:03:58.:04:02.

of this Parliament and in addition to the 3000 vulnerable people,

:04:03.:04:06.

children and others, who we will be picking up from the Middle Dast and

:04:07.:04:10.

north Africa, working with TNHCR to make sure that it is right for the

:04:11.:04:14.

individuals to come here to the United Kingdom and that thex have

:04:15.:04:17.

support when they get here, but I would remind the honourable

:04:18.:04:20.

gentleman that it is this country that is the second-biggest bilateral

:04:21.:04:23.

donor in relation to humanitarian aid in this area region and we are

:04:24.:04:28.

able to support and provide for more people in the region and I think

:04:29.:04:33.

that is the right thing to do. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Around Heathrow,

:04:34.:04:39.

regal air quality limits have been breached. Over Twickenham, noise

:04:40.:04:44.

pollution has increased according to Heathrow data. Can the Primd

:04:45.:04:50.

Minister explain how a third runway can be delivered and comply with

:04:51.:04:54.

pollution legal requirements? Does she agree, environmentally, Heathrow

:04:55.:05:01.

is not good enough and cannot possibly be both bigger and better?

:05:02.:05:10.

The Government looked very closely at this issue of air qualitx and

:05:11.:05:15.

environmental impacts on all three schemes that were proposed by the

:05:16.:05:18.

airports commission. We took extra time to look at those from the

:05:19.:05:23.

decision to take increased `irport capacity in the south-east. We

:05:24.:05:26.

wanted to look more particularly at the quality issues. The evidence

:05:27.:05:29.

shows that air quality standards can be met as required by all three of

:05:30.:05:34.

the schemes, including the North West runway at Heathrow. My

:05:35.:05:37.

honourable friend raises an issue that is actually about more than

:05:38.:05:40.

airports because the question of air quality is also about road transport

:05:41.:05:46.

and that's why we are looking to do more in relation to what we are

:05:47.:05:51.

doing for air quality. It's why for example, I am pleased to sed that we

:05:52.:05:54.

are at such a leading edge hn the provision of electric vehicles. The

:05:55.:06:00.

Prime Minister's real plan for Brexit seems to be to pick winners,

:06:01.:06:04.

to cut a special deal for the City of London, to let the bankers of

:06:05.:06:08.

boys the dire consequences of leaving the economic union... Hear,

:06:09.:06:18.

hear. Wales has an exporting economy with a surplus last year and 20 ,000

:06:19.:06:21.

jobs dependent on staying whthin the European Union. A soft Brexht for

:06:22.:06:27.

her friends in the city, a hard Brexit for everyone else? Whll she

:06:28.:06:32.

cut a similar deal for Wales? I will be cutting the best deal for the

:06:33.:06:40.

United Kingdom, all part of it. Every year, hundreds of people are

:06:41.:06:46.

diagnosed, supper and usually die from rare diseases such as cystic

:06:47.:06:49.

fibrosis and rare cancers which there is no treatment for which the

:06:50.:06:53.

current drugs are prohibitively expensive. We see report thhs week

:06:54.:07:01.

which sets out a way to get discounted prices to the NHS. Will

:07:02.:07:04.

the prime and is me in welcoming that review which is welcomdd by

:07:05.:07:10.

patients, charities, and encourage NHS England to bring it in speedy.

:07:11.:07:19.

This is important in terms of patients being able to get better

:07:20.:07:22.

access to drugs and equipment. I think United Kingdom has established

:07:23.:07:25.

a leading role in relation to life sciences. I would pay tribute to my

:07:26.:07:29.

friend for the role he has played in developing life sciences here in the

:07:30.:07:32.

United Kingdom. I know the Department of Health will bd looking

:07:33.:07:36.

very closely at the specific recommendations from that rdport.

:07:37.:07:40.

But we will be doing so in the light of recognising that if we c`n take

:07:41.:07:44.

opportunities through the N`tional Health Service to be encour`ging the

:07:45.:07:48.

development of new drugs to benefit patients then we should do so. The

:07:49.:07:55.

predators are just told us that record levels of spending are going

:07:56.:07:58.

to Meta health services. He`lth Secretary stood at that dispatch box

:07:59.:08:01.

on the 9th of December and told us that the proportion of fundhng going

:08:02.:08:05.

into mental health from all of our CCGs should be increasing. Why is it

:08:06.:08:11.

then the 57% of CCGs are reducing the proportion of spent in lental

:08:12.:08:15.

health's yet another broken promise. When we will we have real epuality

:08:16.:08:20.

for Meta health in our country? The fact that I set out is we are

:08:21.:08:26.

spending record levels on mdntal health is absolutely right. And I

:08:27.:08:28.

said in response to a number of people who have questioned the best

:08:29.:08:31.

that we recognise there is lore for us to do in mental health and I

:08:32.:08:35.

would have thought that we should have cross-party support on doing

:08:36.:08:40.

just that. Speaking outside ten Downing St on the day she bdcame

:08:41.:08:44.

Prime Minister, my right honourable friend said, if you suffer from

:08:45.:08:47.

mental health problems, there is not enough help to hand. Can I welcome

:08:48.:08:51.

my right honourable friend's commitments in mental health

:08:52.:09:00.

expressed on that day... He`r, hear. And in her responses today. And then

:09:01.:09:04.

I asked her what steps she hs taking to mixture that bold ambitions of

:09:05.:09:08.

the Government's forward vidw for mental health are achieved? I'm

:09:09.:09:15.

pleased to say that in fact what we see, far from the comments `nd

:09:16.:09:18.

impressionist is given by some of the comments opposite, is that since

:09:19.:09:26.

2009-10, around 750,000 mord people are accessing talking therapies and

:09:27.:09:30.

1400 more people are accesshng mental health services everx day

:09:31.:09:34.

compared to 2010, so that is up by 40%. But my honourable friend, who I

:09:35.:09:38.

know has a particular interdst in this issue, and a particular ends

:09:39.:09:42.

were teased in this area, is right that we need to do more and that is

:09:43.:09:46.

why we are continuing to invest in mental health services and

:09:47.:09:48.

continuing to increase the standards that we provide. Thank you, Mr

:09:49.:09:57.

Speaker. Just 20 children are diagnosed with inoperable brain

:09:58.:10:00.

tumours as a result of Chu Beres squirrels has every year, and yet

:10:01.:10:06.

despite earlier indications at NHS England turned it down further

:10:07.:10:10.

funding despite it being affordable. Was she meet with me, charities and

:10:11.:10:15.

fun doing at families to find out how we can get to this pockdt and

:10:16.:10:19.

get this treatment. I'm happy to look at this issue and look in

:10:20.:10:23.

detail at what can be done to take that forward. Order.

:10:24.:11:32.

Order. Ten minute rule motion. Steve Reed. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I beg

:11:33.:11:47.

to me that an amendment will be made to make provision about matdrnity

:11:48.:11:51.

and paternity leave for pardnts of babies born prematurely and for

:11:52.:11:57.

connected purposes. Mr Speaker, having a premature baby is one of

:11:58.:12:02.

the most traumatic experiences that any parent can go through. Hnstead

:12:03.:12:06.

of bringing home a healthy baby that they have longed for, their

:12:07.:12:10.

tiny baby is put inside an incubator, fighting for its life,

:12:11.:12:15.

surrounded by tubes, wires `nd bleeping monitors. Instead of

:12:16.:12:18.

holding their baby clothes, these parents can only watch as their BB

:12:19.:12:23.

struggles to breathe, the spending on life support and intensive care.

:12:24.:12:27.

This can go on for weeks and months before a baby is well enough to go

:12:28.:12:32.

home. The stress, anxiety and worry leads two in every five prelature

:12:33.:12:37.

mothers to suffer mental ill-health. Parents file into debt from the

:12:38.:12:41.

unplanned expense of daily journeys to the hospital, overnight

:12:42.:12:46.

accommodation or eating in inexpensive hospital cafes. One

:12:47.:12:49.

mother told me that her babx spent three months in intensive c`re and

:12:50.:12:54.

at that time was all taken out of her period of statutory matdrnity

:12:55.:13:00.

leave, so her baby suffers twice, first from the serious health

:13:01.:13:04.

complications of being born too soon and second from having less time at

:13:05.:13:09.

home with mum and dad. Vital bonding time that can affect a child's's

:13:10.:13:12.

development for many, many xears to come. I spoke to another mother who

:13:13.:13:17.

told me her employer would not give her the extra time she needdd off

:13:18.:13:22.

work to deal with her premature child's frequent illnesses once she

:13:23.:13:26.

had gone back to work. She lost her job and her family lost that vital

:13:27.:13:31.

extra income. I spoke to a dad who had to go back to work the day after

:13:32.:13:37.

his baby was born, three months too soon, and was fighting for her life

:13:38.:13:42.

in an incubator. Most peopld would agree, his family needed hil more at

:13:43.:13:47.

that time than his employer did but the law did not give him thd support

:13:48.:13:50.

he needed to be there with his family.

:13:51.:13:54.

We should give the parents `re premature babies all the support

:13:55.:13:59.

they need to cope at one of the most traumatic times they will ever

:14:00.:14:05.

experience. I pay tribute to the Croydon man and tireless calpaigner,

:14:06.:14:11.

Katrina Ogle P, who started campaigning on this issue after her

:14:12.:14:16.

beautiful little boys were born prematurely. Over 100,000 pdople

:14:17.:14:20.

have signed an online petithon, and I would like to recognise the

:14:21.:14:26.

outstanding work of the charity Bliss, who campaign for the rights

:14:27.:14:31.

of the premature babies and their families. It is time the law

:14:32.:14:35.

recognised the special needs of premature babies' parents so they

:14:36.:14:41.

can extend their leave and they can give their mouldable babies all the

:14:42.:14:43.

love and care they deserve. This is a measure that command is growing

:14:44.:14:46.

support in the country. It hs the right thing to do and it deserves

:14:47.:14:55.

the support of this house. Order, thank you. The question is the

:14:56.:15:01.

honourable member have leavd to bring in the bill. As many `s are of

:15:02.:15:04.

that opinion, say aye. On the contrary, no.. The ayes havd it Who

:15:05.:15:15.

will prepare the bill. Norm`n Lamb, Stella Creasy, Gareth Thomas, Jenny

:15:16.:15:19.

Chapman, Lynne Brown, Heidi Alexander, Lisa Nandy and mxself.

:15:20.:15:33.

Maternity and paternity leave premature births bill. Second

:15:34.:15:58.

reading what they? Friday 16th of December. Thank you. Order. We now

:15:59.:16:14.

come to the opposition Day lotion, on Concentrix, in the neighbour --

:16:15.:16:17.

name of the Leader of the Opposition. The topic of today's

:16:18.:16:24.

first opposition day debate affects every single honourable member's

:16:25.:16:28.

constituency. I have receivdd many case studies from honourabld members

:16:29.:16:31.

on this side of the House would like to thank them for their hard work on

:16:32.:16:37.

this issue. Indeed, I welcole the S's comments on today's order

:16:38.:16:40.

paper and I'm very pleased we are on the same page on this issue. -- the

:16:41.:16:47.

SNP's comments. We have also heard how constituents of member hs on the

:16:48.:16:50.

opposite benches have been `ffected by this scandal. My own inbox and

:16:51.:16:54.

postbag have seen a surge in the number of anxious and distrdssed

:16:55.:16:58.

families needing my help after their tax credits have been stoppdd. I

:16:59.:17:01.

would like to take this opportunity to put on record my thanks to my

:17:02.:17:06.

honourable friend the member is for Sheffield, Healey and Slough, the

:17:07.:17:10.

chairs of the Public Accounts Committee, work and pensions

:17:11.:17:12.

committee and Treasury commhttee is, for their hard work on shinhng the

:17:13.:17:16.

spotlight on this very serious issue. I am sure members of this

:17:17.:17:22.

house will assist the minister by illustrating their own cases today,

:17:23.:17:25.

but I will begin my remarks by outlining the shocking yet typical

:17:26.:17:29.

case study brought to my attention recently. The lady in questhon is a

:17:30.:17:34.

single parent with three chhldren and a job. Although at the time of

:17:35.:17:39.

her exchange with Concentrix, she had just had a baby and was on

:17:40.:17:44.

maternity leave. This lady had been accused on two separate occ`sions of

:17:45.:17:48.

living with an undisclosed partner will stop on both of these

:17:49.:17:51.

occasions, she had never met a person. The first time, she was

:17:52.:17:57.

accused of living with a man who turned out to be the former tenant

:17:58.:18:01.

of the housing association flat that she now lives in. And this was

:18:02.:18:06.

sorted out fairly easily. Btt imagine her shock when only months

:18:07.:18:10.

later, she received another letter accusing her of living with another

:18:11.:18:17.

undisclosed partner. When she phoned Concentrix, she was told shd was

:18:18.:18:21.

living with a woman of whom she had never heard. The lady pointdd out

:18:22.:18:25.

that there was absolutely no truth in this accusation and sent all of

:18:26.:18:29.

the requested original doculentation by recorded delivery to Concentrix.

:18:30.:18:37.

She received no response. She gave birth to her first child two weeks

:18:38.:18:43.

later. When the claimant phoned Concentrix, she was told th`t the

:18:44.:18:46.

documents she had sent were not on the system. And she then received a

:18:47.:18:54.

letter cancelling her tax credits. This left her with only matdrnity

:18:55.:18:59.

allowance to live on, and ddmand to repay ?4100. The lady in qudstion

:19:00.:19:07.

then obtained a documentation after Concentrix appeared to have lost the

:19:08.:19:13.

originals, and sent a request for mandatory reconsideration again by

:19:14.:19:17.

recorded delivery to Concentrix By this time, the lady in question was

:19:18.:19:21.

running very short of money and she contacted her member of Parliament

:19:22.:19:26.

for help. When the Parliamentary office investigated the matter, they

:19:27.:19:31.

were told that there was a backlog of mandatory reconsiderations said

:19:32.:19:34.

it could take six weeks for the case to be looked out. By this thme, the

:19:35.:19:41.

lady in question had been w`iting for three months for a resolution to

:19:42.:19:45.

her case. That is three months incomplete stress and turmohl, on

:19:46.:19:51.

the bread line, when she should have been enjoying those precious early

:19:52.:19:58.

moments of her child. Lie. H am extreme -- her child's life. I'm

:19:59.:20:02.

extremely grateful for her giving way. She might like to know that I

:20:03.:20:06.

was contacted Doctor Long ago by woman in a similar situation, she

:20:07.:20:12.

had been accused by Concentrix, and her tax credits cut because they

:20:13.:20:15.

accuse of having a lesbian relation ship with her sister. And it took

:20:16.:20:22.

her coming to her member her Parliament and myself Concentrix

:20:23.:20:27.

calling them before -- callhng Concentrix before they belidved the

:20:28.:20:31.

truth. Isn't it absurd that it takes a direct intervention from `n MP

:20:32.:20:35.

before this ridiculous Compttex people seriously? -- this rhdiculous

:20:36.:20:44.

company takes people seriously? The term it beggars belief comes to mind

:20:45.:20:49.

and his case is not an isol`ted one. After much chasing, it was confirmed

:20:50.:20:53.

that the lady had no test -, connection to this mystery woman,

:20:54.:20:58.

she was paid all the money she was owed and the demand to repax was

:20:59.:21:02.

withdrawn. This is just one example of Concentrix's... I am grateful, we

:21:03.:21:09.

have all got examples of constituents who have had shmilar

:21:10.:21:13.

stories to the one she has just stepped out. What we have got is a

:21:14.:21:16.

complete lack of urgency from the government opposite. People are left

:21:17.:21:23.

destitute by these decisions for no good reason. What we want to hear

:21:24.:21:27.

from the government is they will put some extra resources into expedite

:21:28.:21:30.

investigations into these c`ses so these people are paid out and

:21:31.:21:34.

compensated, and if necessary, at the expense of Concentrix. H thank

:21:35.:21:39.

the honourable member for hhs intervention and I could not agree

:21:40.:21:44.

more. As we know, the case that I have referred to is not isolated.

:21:45.:21:52.

According to the government's own figures, the company have considered

:21:53.:21:59.

667,000 cases, of which 103,000 have been amended. That is 15% of

:22:00.:22:02.

investigations that have wrongly pursued perfectly legitimatd tax

:22:03.:22:07.

credit claimants. And they `re simply the ones who have thd

:22:08.:22:11.

strength to come forward and resent themselves to their MPs, as we have

:22:12.:22:20.

heard. -- present themselves. My experience is that every single one

:22:21.:22:23.

of the Concentrix cases that has been taken up by my office so far,

:22:24.:22:27.

which has been resolved, thd payment has been put back in place. In other

:22:28.:22:33.

words, they are 100% wrong. What is my honourable friend think the

:22:34.:22:38.

government ought to do about that? I thank my honourable friend for her

:22:39.:22:42.

comments and I think the cases we have seen so far are the tip of the

:22:43.:22:46.

iceberg and the government has a responsibility to ensure th`t all

:22:47.:22:49.

cases are adequately investhgated to make sure that no one has f`llen

:22:50.:22:53.

through the cracks and not presented themselves to either their LP or

:22:54.:22:59.

contacted Concentrix them dhrectly. I have spoken in previous ddbates

:23:00.:23:08.

about Capita's failures in delaying disability benefits to vulndrable

:23:09.:23:12.

people, the only difference to me seems to be here the name of the

:23:13.:23:16.

corporation involved. Isn't the fundamental issue that priv`te

:23:17.:23:20.

profit-making companies are failing to deliver vital government

:23:21.:23:24.

services? He makes a very interesting point and I will come on

:23:25.:23:28.

to the issue of the contract and the delivery method of that contract in

:23:29.:23:32.

due course because I think there needs to be a wider investigation

:23:33.:23:39.

and discussion about these sorts of situations. In 2015, there were no

:23:40.:23:45.

appeals of the decision. In the next year, there were 365. And from April

:23:46.:23:52.

to August 2016, there have been 176. A similar spike is clear in the

:23:53.:23:58.

number of mandatory reconsiderations which more than quadrupled between

:23:59.:24:07.

2014-15, and 2015-16. Even lore shocking is that this number almost

:24:08.:24:10.

quadrupled again just to mid August this year. I am very grateftl. Would

:24:11.:24:19.

my honourable friend agree that the government should commit to an

:24:20.:24:24.

official investigation into Concentrix's conduct, said ht was

:24:25.:24:30.

awarded the contract in 2014, so we can know how the situation hs she

:24:31.:24:34.

has described were allowed to happen? I thank her for her comments

:24:35.:24:39.

and I completely agree with what she has to say on this issue. Rdferring

:24:40.:24:44.

back to the figures I have just mentioned, it is hard to believe

:24:45.:24:49.

that the number of fraudulent tax credit claimants suddenly increased

:24:50.:24:54.

so dramatically in these two years. What is clear, however, is that

:24:55.:24:58.

there is an ever-growing evhdence -based testing that Concentrix has

:24:59.:25:05.

been unfairly and unjustly stopping people's tax credits, leaving them

:25:06.:25:08.

in financial difficulty, along with the anxiety that causes. IM pleased

:25:09.:25:13.

that the government has accdnted that this contract was not working.

:25:14.:25:18.

They were forced to concede this point by my honourable friend, the

:25:19.:25:22.

member for Sheffield Healy, when she received an answer to a

:25:23.:25:24.

Parliamentary question earlx last month. The response revealed that

:25:25.:25:31.

since mid-October 2015, there have been 120 incidences where Concentrix

:25:32.:25:36.

has not fully met the performance standards set out in the contract.

:25:37.:25:43.

Out of a total of 1625. Following mounting pressure from honotrable

:25:44.:25:46.

members on this side of the House, the government announced it would

:25:47.:25:50.

not be renewing the Concentrix contract when it ends in Max and

:25:51.:25:54.

they would be redeploying 140 members of HMRC staff to cldar the

:25:55.:26:01.

backlog of cases. I am very grateful for her giving way, she's m`king a

:26:02.:26:04.

powerful case. I wonder whether she is aware that it not actually until

:26:05.:26:09.

October last year that they were even monitoring the perform`nce of

:26:10.:26:13.

Concentrix, as was your field in a Parliamentary question a few weeks

:26:14.:26:17.

ago, and shows why they havd had to remove this contract now? They

:26:18.:26:23.

didn't even know whether Concentrix were performing the service

:26:24.:26:25.

standards they were laid out in the contract. She makes a fantastic

:26:26.:26:30.

point and I have a whole section of my speech devoted to partictlar

:26:31.:26:37.

clauses in the contract that may or may not have been able to bty it off

:26:38.:26:42.

the government. We on this site welcomes this announcement hn terms

:26:43.:26:46.

of redeploying the 150 membdrs of staff and not renewing the contract

:26:47.:26:49.

but we still had serious concerns that Concentrix would still be

:26:50.:26:53.

handling cases and the government had not stated that it would bring

:26:54.:26:56.

the operation back in-house. Following further pressure from

:26:57.:27:03.

Labour and PCS, the union, the government backed down and the union

:27:04.:27:06.

confirmed last week the operation will be brought back in-house with

:27:07.:27:11.

Concentrix staff in Belfast being transferred to HMRC. We of course

:27:12.:27:14.

welcome to this action but this this not even begin to address the wider

:27:15.:27:21.

issues. Out of this situation arise? When did the government first become

:27:22.:27:27.

aware of it? What action did they take? How will they ensure that this

:27:28.:27:32.

does not occur again? And most importantly, when and how whll the

:27:33.:27:36.

victims be compensated? Medha reports were surfacing as f`r back

:27:37.:27:42.

as 2015 in relation to erroneous tax credit decisions being made pursuant

:27:43.:27:47.

to this contract. And as I have outlined, the figures were

:27:48.:27:50.

indicating an unusual spike in appeals. These red flags were there,

:27:51.:27:53.

and they should have been acted upon. And I would like to dhrect the

:27:54.:27:59.

Minister to the contract between HMRC and Concentrix which provides a

:28:00.:28:03.

number of tools the governmdnt had at its fingertips. Section H, clause

:28:04.:28:08.

3.1 of the contract provides that where HMRC is concerned with the

:28:09.:28:15.

delivery of service, it can investigate the matter. So was HMRC

:28:16.:28:21.

concerned, and if so, when? If the Minister cannot answer just yet

:28:22.:28:24.

just to help her pinpoint this information, I will illustr`te the

:28:25.:28:27.

further machinery within thd contract which would have hdlped the

:28:28.:28:30.

government and HMRC find out about any issues pretty swiftly. Clause

:28:31.:28:38.

EE, 7.1, scheduled G providd for reviews of the contract's

:28:39.:28:41.

effectiveness. If she looks at schedule D, she will see subsection

:28:42.:28:47.

4.1, that prior to going live, HMRC will work with Concentrix to

:28:48.:28:51.

establish and agree robust governance framework includhng

:28:52.:28:56.

contract management, Kimi Nhkesh and squalor quality assurance, payment

:28:57.:29:02.

risk management, -- communications and quality assurance, and lost

:29:03.:29:05.

importantly reporting. Can the Minister confirm the details of this

:29:06.:29:09.

robust governance frame Inc for the benefit of the House? If not, I

:29:10.:29:15.

would reassure her there were more options.

:29:16.:29:20.

Section 12.1 states that HMRC will have full access to individtal cases

:29:21.:29:28.

and further to this, Concentrix was under an obligation to let HMRC

:29:29.:29:33.

observe their working methods. So can I ask the Minister if individual

:29:34.:29:41.

cases were reviewed by HMRC and did HMRC investigate the methods used by

:29:42.:29:47.

Concentrix? If so, how often did this occur and what were thd

:29:48.:29:52.

findings of these investigations? So it's clear the Government dhd have

:29:53.:29:55.

the tools to monitor servicd delivery and perhaps they shmply did

:29:56.:29:59.

not use them. The minister will confirm in due course. If they found

:30:00.:30:05.

failings after exhausting a quite reasonable dispute process, also

:30:06.:30:09.

referred to in the contracts, the Government could have exerchsed a

:30:10.:30:13.

break clause found in clausd G3 by giving only three months notice Can

:30:14.:30:17.

the Minister confirm whether this was considered when, and wh`t the

:30:18.:30:24.

outcome of this consideration was? If, however, the answer to `ll of

:30:25.:30:28.

these contractual questions is, I don't know, then I would as the

:30:29.:30:33.

Minister if she is really stre that HMRC has the capacity to monitor

:30:34.:30:38.

this contract effectively? She will be interested to know that ` report

:30:39.:30:44.

on HMRC is due to be published by peace CST union shortly and it

:30:45.:30:47.

suggests the department is `t breaking point. Staff are htgely

:30:48.:30:52.

demoralised, 25% want to le`ve the department immediately or whthin a

:30:53.:30:55.

year and the Department scores below average in all of the measures on

:30:56.:31:00.

the civil service's annual staff survey. It doesn't paint a very

:31:01.:31:07.

happy picture. I thank you for giving way. She is making a forensic

:31:08.:31:11.

case, but is it not also thd situation is behind these f`cts and

:31:12.:31:16.

figures are real human cases of particularly women, particularly

:31:17.:31:19.

single mothers who are being absolutely hammered by Concdntrix

:31:20.:31:22.

and I have constituents in Stoke-on-Trent who are going hungry

:31:23.:31:26.

and their children are going hungry because of the incompetence of

:31:27.:31:29.

Concentrix and that is what we need a minister to answer today. He makes

:31:30.:31:34.

a very powerful point and hd is 100% correct. This is not simply a case

:31:35.:31:38.

of wrapping Concentrix on the back of the hand. There has been real

:31:39.:31:43.

human suffering caused by the contractual feelings and thd

:31:44.:31:44.

Government needs to address these urgently. Thank you for takhng the

:31:45.:31:52.

intervention. Is she aware of this bikes that she talks about hn these

:31:53.:31:58.

claimants are rising in the weeks before conference recess and in the

:31:59.:32:01.

days following when Concentrix worked stripped of the contract We

:32:02.:32:07.

know what is happening. Thex are a drilling down on claimants to avoid

:32:08.:32:12.

the exit clause. I do hope that the Minister has heard his question and

:32:13.:32:15.

will address this in her sulming up because it is a question th`t we all

:32:16.:32:21.

want to hear the answer to. Another issue is indeed the provisions in

:32:22.:32:24.

the contract which relate to payments by delivery. The hdad of

:32:25.:32:30.

the National Audit Office stated in June 2015 about payment by results.

:32:31.:32:34.

They stated, while its supporters argued that by its nature p`yment

:32:35.:32:39.

die result potentially offers value for money, these contracts `re hard

:32:40.:32:43.

to get right which generates risks and costs for commissioners. They go

:32:44.:32:47.

want to state, the increased cost and risk may be justified btt this

:32:48.:32:53.

requires credible evidence. Without such evidence, commissioners may be

:32:54.:32:57.

using this mechanism in circumstances to which it is ill

:32:58.:33:01.

suited to the detriment of value for money. If we look to the contract

:33:02.:33:08.

again, we see that at schedtle A, section 6.1, HMRC required over the

:33:09.:33:12.

duration of the contract th`t concentric squid deliver circa 000

:33:13.:33:21.

and ?30 million savings in `nnual expenditure. I understand that these

:33:22.:33:25.

were estimates to forecast potential savings, but given the model, how

:33:26.:33:28.

could the position we have been certain in these cases without

:33:29.:33:34.

having a crystal ball? In answer to parliamentary questions, it was

:33:35.:33:37.

revealed that total savings in annually managed expenditurd were

:33:38.:33:45.

2.3 million in 2014-15, 100 22. 3,000,020 15-16, and 159.5 point

:33:46.:33:56.

5,000,016 17 to mid August hn 2 16. Thank you for accepting an

:33:57.:33:59.

intervention. Does she agred with me that these savings were madd by my

:34:00.:34:06.

constituents, 100% of whom, have had their benefits paid back gohng to

:34:07.:34:10.

food banks for the first tile in their lives and that the te`m has

:34:11.:34:18.

seen a spike of over, I think, 0 families going to food banks with

:34:19.:34:23.

problems with their tax credits I thank my honourable friend for her

:34:24.:34:27.

intervention and I think it highlights the human impact that

:34:28.:34:30.

these contractual feelings have had. I myself have had constituents

:34:31.:34:35.

coming to me asking for the addresses of food banks and asking

:34:36.:34:38.

if parcels could be deliverdd to them because they are too ashamed to

:34:39.:34:44.

be seen to be struggling by their communities and to put people in

:34:45.:34:46.

those situations is an absolute disgrace. Hear, hear. In terms of

:34:47.:34:55.

the savings, the total to d`te is 284.1 million since commencdment of

:34:56.:35:01.

the contract in November 2004. Anyone can see that it is an excess

:35:02.:35:08.

of the leap from 2.3 million in 2014 to 149 point 4 million. So does the

:35:09.:35:17.

Minister therefore believe that looking at the figures, there was

:35:18.:35:20.

Seve in massive increase in fraud in the system or would she agrde with

:35:21.:35:25.

assertions that the contract was actually granted in absence of a

:35:26.:35:30.

firm evidence base which did not justify the risks that follow with

:35:31.:35:34.

the payment by results contracts? As I've said, there is a human impacts

:35:35.:35:39.

and a human cost to this. It was not simply a case of slapping Concentrix

:35:40.:35:44.

on the back of the hands and then moving on. This is about thd duty of

:35:45.:35:51.

the Government to preserve justice being abandoned by the profht motive

:35:52.:35:55.

this contract provided. The risks here were real human risks, families

:35:56.:36:01.

forced into destitution, anguish, despair, and all of the associated

:36:02.:36:05.

pressures on an individual's mental health. The payment model could

:36:06.:36:15.

create a conflict of interest and it has been recommended that the

:36:16.:36:18.

National Audit Office examined the contract to ensure it has

:36:19.:36:21.

appropriate safeguards to preserve justice for the claimant. Btt at

:36:22.:36:28.

that stage, there was no investigation, but the Labotr Party

:36:29.:36:31.

has since risen to the National Audit Office and receive thhs

:36:32.:36:35.

response, my team has carridd out preliminary work to look into the

:36:36.:36:38.

issues. Their view is that the contract between HMRC and Concentrix

:36:39.:36:43.

merits further investigation. I m very pleased that the National Audit

:36:44.:36:48.

Office will be investigating this matter, but frankly, the Government

:36:49.:36:52.

must be carrying out a full and transparent enquiries of its own. Mr

:36:53.:36:57.

Speaker, Labour is calling on this debate today for the Governlent to

:36:58.:37:01.

conduct the compounds of investigation into the performance

:37:02.:37:05.

of Concentrix and HMRC's contract with the company, both in tdrms of

:37:06.:37:09.

the adequate enforcement of all the contract terms as I outlined earlier

:37:10.:37:14.

and also indeed the suitability of selecting a payment by results model

:37:15.:37:17.

for delivering a service of this nature. I would also add th`t the

:37:18.:37:22.

National Audit Office confirmed last year that the Government's payments

:37:23.:37:27.

by results schemes accounted for at least ?15 billion of public

:37:28.:37:32.

spending. They go on to state that neither the Cabinet Office nor the

:37:33.:37:36.

Treasury currently monitors how payment by results is operating

:37:37.:37:44.

across Government. She's making a very detailed case about thd defects

:37:45.:37:48.

of this contract, including in relation to payment by results. She

:37:49.:37:52.

not agree with me that what actually exacerbates the problems with this

:37:53.:37:56.

model is that when people dhd have a problem with their tax being

:37:57.:38:01.

withdrawn, they had to complain to Concentrix. They had to go back to

:38:02.:38:03.

the decision maker and naturally, there would be no financial

:38:04.:38:09.

incentive on Concentrix to tnwind a wrong decision? She is corrdct.

:38:10.:38:15.

Sadly, I think in a lot of cases, when they tried to complain to

:38:16.:38:19.

Concentrix, all they receivdd was a dull induced tonsil they did not get

:38:20.:38:24.

very far. Perhaps the Minister could insure the House that she whll also

:38:25.:38:28.

go beyond the scope of todax's motion and also investigate these

:38:29.:38:32.

types of contracts as a widdr issue including putting measures before

:38:33.:38:37.

this House to avoid the incorrect application of payments by results

:38:38.:38:41.

because I fear that Concentrix is just the tip of the iceberg. I thank

:38:42.:38:48.

the honourable member for ghving way. I'm having looked just now at

:38:49.:38:53.

how far back payment by restlts schools. Will new Labour, or old is

:38:54.:38:58.

new Labour, take some responsibility because in fact in 2013-14, we saw

:38:59.:39:02.

payment by results being introduced into the English NHS and condemn it

:39:03.:39:08.

from all sides of the chambdr today. I thank him for his comments and

:39:09.:39:13.

indeed, I think we can all learn lessons from the experiences that we

:39:14.:39:17.

have in reviewing the handlhng of payment by results contracts and it

:39:18.:39:22.

is those experiences that I hope the Minister will take into

:39:23.:39:24.

consideration when she condtcts a review into the delivery of payment

:39:25.:39:29.

by results contracts. I've just got one more paragraph and then I am

:39:30.:39:34.

going to finish, thank you. Finally, Mr Speaker, I want to speak of the

:39:35.:39:37.

victims of this terrible selection of systematic failures. Thex did not

:39:38.:39:43.

deserve to face the hardship they injured. They must be adequ`tely

:39:44.:39:47.

compensated for their losses. While the Minister confirm that they will

:39:48.:39:54.

be compensated, on what bashs, and will she specify a time for this

:39:55.:39:59.

action to occur? Can also confirmed that in addressing this isste and in

:40:00.:40:04.

bringing services back into HMRC, she will mitigate any adverse effect

:40:05.:40:08.

or a reduction in service for claimants and please do keep an eye

:40:09.:40:12.

out for the PCS report becatse it is a real eye-opener. Before I finish,

:40:13.:40:15.

I know the Minister has expdrienced these terrible cases on her own

:40:16.:40:21.

doorstep, she has seen the dffects first-hand. And she seems to be very

:40:22.:40:27.

empathetic soul as such, can she issue an apology on behalf of her

:40:28.:40:30.

Government for the distress and hardship that has been causdd. I

:40:31.:40:34.

think it is the very least our constituents deserve. Thank you The

:40:35.:40:43.

question is as on the order paper. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Obviously,

:40:44.:40:47.

over the past few weeks there have been a number of debates on this

:40:48.:40:51.

House debate in the quality of service from Concentrix in helping

:40:52.:40:56.

HMRC counter fraud in our t`x system and this is an important opportunity

:40:57.:41:00.

to debate this issue again `nd I hope to go a little bit further in

:41:01.:41:04.

providing information to thd House. It is right that we debated over the

:41:05.:41:08.

last few months. It has become clear that despite best efforts of the

:41:09.:41:12.

majority of its front-line staff, Concentrix was failing to mdet the

:41:13.:41:16.

standards we expected and indeed had specified in their contracts. This

:41:17.:41:19.

meant many of those people we have been hearing about in the honourable

:41:20.:41:24.

lady's speech and in intervdntion so far, people like my constittents

:41:25.:41:28.

whose tax credits were being investigated, have been caused

:41:29.:41:30.

needless frustration and distress when it came to resolving their and

:41:31.:41:36.

obviously, we will hear mord, I suspect, as the debate unfolds. I

:41:37.:41:39.

will look to address the spdcific points in the motion over the course

:41:40.:41:43.

of this debate. I think she has accurately speculated there may be

:41:44.:41:46.

aspects of the contractual arrangements that I may need to

:41:47.:41:50.

write to her on in due course for reasons that might become obvious as

:41:51.:41:59.

I go through. The human suffering aspects, can I welcome how puickly

:42:00.:42:04.

she responded to the letter in the memoranda of cases that I stbmitted

:42:05.:42:09.

to her, as did other members, but if we are talking about is not just

:42:10.:42:13.

learning lessons from the contract, how do we quickly get compensation

:42:14.:42:17.

to people who have actually been adversely affected? Will shd give an

:42:18.:42:22.

undertaking today and has she got that in her speech, that those

:42:23.:42:24.

people who have actually had their benefits by Concentrix will be

:42:25.:42:29.

informed of the hardship funds that she has established so they can

:42:30.:42:34.

quickly apply for help? The right Honourable gentleman is right to

:42:35.:42:37.

anticipate that I am going to touch on this issue and I will reflect on

:42:38.:42:43.

the point he makes about thd proactive... Idle zero the

:42:44.:42:46.

arrangement for proactively telling people, but there are arrangements

:42:47.:42:49.

in place. I will go on to them and he can then perhaps that me know if

:42:50.:42:52.

he does not think those werd adequate. I thought actuallx, given

:42:53.:42:56.

that so many members on all sides of the House have made such efforts to

:42:57.:43:00.

support their constituents over recent weeks and the human `spects

:43:01.:43:04.

of this issue are absolutelx uppermost in our minds todax, that

:43:05.:43:07.

the first thing I should do is just bring the House up to date on the

:43:08.:43:10.

action taken to rectify the situation. As I informed thd House

:43:11.:43:15.

last month, starting with the decision on the 13th of September

:43:16.:43:20.

not to pass any new faces to Concentrix, it was instead hntended

:43:21.:43:24.

that they should concentratd on resolving outstanding cases. Staff

:43:25.:43:29.

also stepped in to reinstatd quality customer service, making sure that

:43:30.:43:31.

people could once again get through on the forms. We know how critical

:43:32.:43:35.

that is to be able to get through and actually have your voicd heard.

:43:36.:43:42.

When she answered the urgent question on this, she asked our in

:43:43.:43:49.

situ is to phone that phone line, one of mine phone on the dax after,

:43:50.:43:53.

waiting ages, got through, only to be told because of all the

:43:54.:43:57.

complaints you have been making we are getting sacked, and put the

:43:58.:44:04.

phone down on her. Would th`t not be further distress on people who are

:44:05.:44:07.

already deeply distressed and it is not acceptable? Of course it is not

:44:08.:44:11.

acceptable. I would add that I think the members might be aware, but the

:44:12.:44:17.

MP's phone line hours have been exhibited some weeks in orddr to be

:44:18.:44:24.

able to cope with more calls, to that route. She assured the House

:44:25.:44:30.

that queries would be dealt with within four working girls btt that

:44:31.:44:33.

is not the case and many constituents are still waithng weeks

:44:34.:44:37.

the -- working days but that is not the case and many constituents are

:44:38.:44:43.

waiting weeks from Concentrhx and HMRC for their claims, so c`n she

:44:44.:44:47.

can update us on the timeline? She has given me an apt moment to be

:44:48.:44:52.

clear on what I said on the day Once we had established the fact of

:44:53.:44:56.

the case, people should get paid within four days, clearly some cases

:44:57.:45:00.

are complex and further det`ils are needed. What I said during the

:45:01.:45:03.

urgent question was, once wd established the facts of thd case,

:45:04.:45:07.

it is an automated process that then authorises the payment to bd made

:45:08.:45:11.

within four working days and that is the time and HMRC is working too.

:45:12.:45:17.

HMRC staff stepped in to rehnstate customer service is to make sure

:45:18.:45:20.

that people could get through on the phones. What matters is that we get

:45:21.:45:26.

the right information, establish the facts and get payments started

:45:27.:45:30.

again. This is absolutely critical. To that end HMRC also took back from

:45:31.:45:36.

Concentrix 181,000 cases th`t were incomplete, and staff have been

:45:37.:45:39.

working hard to resolve these. I can update the House that 178,000 of

:45:40.:45:48.

those 181,000 cases have bedn already finalised, that represents

:45:49.:45:51.

90% of them and HMRC have already written to the other 2% and should

:45:52.:45:56.

conclude those cases by the end of the month. I would like to place on

:45:57.:46:01.

record my thanks to HMRC st`ff for the effort in this regard. Those

:46:02.:46:05.

staff are also taking on thd review... Any decision made by

:46:06.:46:14.

Concentrix which is requestdd. I thank her for giving way. What is

:46:15.:46:18.

startling issues talking about 8% being resolved within four weeks.

:46:19.:46:23.

Can you tell us whether there is any evidence whatsoever of thosd 98 , or

:46:24.:46:30.

they should have been pursudd in the first base or it was a bogus fishing

:46:31.:46:34.

expedition which all of us hn this house might believe? It is hmportant

:46:35.:46:38.

to recognise that when a case is resolved, a conclusion based on the

:46:39.:46:41.

fact is released. I cannot give the House a breakdown on whether that is

:46:42.:46:47.

payments reinstated, somethhng that was wrong with the claim, or indeed

:46:48.:46:51.

in a small number of cases ht might have been fraudulent. The point is

:46:52.:46:55.

they have been resolved according to the facts provided, and in the

:46:56.:46:58.

knowledge of the person concerned. But we might be able to provide

:46:59.:47:01.

further breakdown at some point but I'm not in addition to do that

:47:02.:47:07.

today. What I think the House would find especially helpful if to know

:47:08.:47:12.

to what degree Concentrix wdre steered to look for undeclared

:47:13.:47:17.

partners by the government `nd what degree the contract incentivised

:47:18.:47:22.

them to jump to conclusions. I will come onto some other aspect and .. I

:47:23.:47:29.

must make some progress, Mr Speaker may not indulge me too much if I

:47:30.:47:34.

give way. I will see if I c`n figure further intervention later. As

:47:35.:47:37.

honourable members should bd aware, anyone who wishes to challenge any

:47:38.:47:40.

changes made to their tax credit has a right to request a mandatory

:47:41.:47:44.

reconsideration of their case. As of the start of this week, HMRC had

:47:45.:47:49.

received over 26,000 requests and staff have is viewed and resolved

:47:50.:47:54.

over three quarters of thosd, and are up-to-date with these Concentrix

:47:55.:47:57.

reviews. That means resolved in accordance with the facts, does not

:47:58.:48:01.

necessarily mean that all of the, there was a problem in each case.

:48:02.:48:07.

Those remaining cases will be a priority. So that is just to give

:48:08.:48:19.

the House a flavour of what is being happening, checking the right

:48:20.:48:22.

decisions have been made. I know members have been worried about

:48:23.:48:25.

people falling into hardship, quite rightly that has been the source of

:48:26.:48:28.

many of the questions we have been asked. Those people whose D`ve has

:48:29.:48:34.

been incorrectly withdrawn or reduced due to errors. I want to

:48:35.:48:39.

reassure members we have a system in place to support anyone who contact

:48:40.:48:42.

HMRC in such circumstances. They will be helped to request a review

:48:43.:48:47.

of the decision taken, the landatory reconsideration that I have

:48:48.:48:52.

mentioned, those in hardship will receive ?100, normally the following

:48:53.:49:00.

day, while the review is handled. My constituent successfully ch`llenged

:49:01.:49:06.

an erroneous cap Concentrix Yvette. HMRC said she had one of Japan's

:49:07.:49:11.

conversation but warning her might in itself trigger -- she had ?1 0

:49:12.:49:17.

compensation but warning her that that might trigger an over payment.

:49:18.:49:23.

Can he/she comment? -- can she come it on that? I cannot comment on

:49:24.:49:29.

individual cases, but he is welcome to write to me. If the Housd feels

:49:30.:49:34.

it is useful to hold a membdr drop in for cases like that to bd

:49:35.:49:37.

resolved face-to-face, I'm happy to arrange that. If members ard away of

:49:38.:49:42.

people in such circumstances, in hardship and of course I know many

:49:43.:49:46.

are, they can bring this directly to my attention. I would be gr`teful to

:49:47.:49:50.

all members who have alreadx taken action of this kind and attdnded

:49:51.:49:57.

drop-in sessions. There is ` special hotline for MPs to raise issues and

:49:58.:50:02.

seek information on this issue and we have allocated extra staff to

:50:03.:50:09.

make this service available over greater hours. We are making some

:50:10.:50:13.

progress to put at least to an end to the distress and worry some

:50:14.:50:17.

people have regrettably facdd in this time and we have mechanisms in

:50:18.:50:21.

place to make sure anyone in hardship, as a result of uncertainty

:50:22.:50:25.

and mistakes, will be supported These two things have been our top

:50:26.:50:30.

priority. I wonder if she c`n tell us where the bad information that

:50:31.:50:35.

has been acted on by Concentrix has come from? Because one of the key

:50:36.:50:40.

things about these cases is that the information upon which people's

:50:41.:50:45.

claims have been cancelled has been almost universally poor. And

:50:46.:50:50.

nonsensical. Where has that data come from? A lot of the dat`, most

:50:51.:50:58.

of the data, both HMRC and Concentrix are working on, hs the

:50:59.:51:00.

sort of data that members would expect companies and H Macy to be

:51:01.:51:06.

using this regard. So in thd case of Concentrix, they make referdnce to

:51:07.:51:13.

credit data, and I think a lot of... Because there are so many claims, so

:51:14.:51:19.

many tax credit claims, a lot of the work pointing to where therd might

:51:20.:51:23.

be errors is based on the hhstory of where there have been subst`ntial

:51:24.:51:25.

errors over time and those individuals and people... I must

:51:26.:51:31.

make some progress. And where particular individuals and

:51:32.:51:33.

particular circumstances ard more prone to error. Over the ye`rs that

:51:34.:51:37.

tax credits have been running, quite a substantial picture has bden built

:51:38.:51:40.

up of that bottle of where drror is more likely to exist. We have been

:51:41.:51:48.

working... The right honour`ble memory says it is bad. Therd are a

:51:49.:51:55.

lot of cases of error in thd system and fraud, it is not the case that

:51:56.:52:00.

all this information is, to quote her, bad. Far from it. I will come

:52:01.:52:08.

on to mention the figures involved. All members know there are times

:52:09.:52:12.

where people give them wrong information, mostly because of

:52:13.:52:14.

error, sometimes because of flawed. I will bring make more progress We

:52:15.:52:22.

are working hard to adjust the wider issues. The three main points in

:52:23.:52:27.

today's motion. The Concentrix contract. Regarding the contract, we

:52:28.:52:32.

agree that their performancd fell below the performance stand`rds

:52:33.:52:35.

required and I do not want to ignore the millions of pounds worth of

:52:36.:52:38.

savings they have helped deliver for the taxpayer which might not have

:52:39.:52:42.

been achieved otherwise but when that level of customer servhce is so

:52:43.:52:45.

far below what we expect, it is right we take action as a

:52:46.:52:49.

consequence. First, as set out under the terms of the contract, payment

:52:50.:52:53.

Concentrix will be cut in rdsponse to their failure to adhere to the

:52:54.:52:58.

standards required. Secondlx, as HMRC announced on 13 September,

:52:59.:53:01.

their contract will not be renewed beyond its end date in May 2017 and

:53:02.:53:09.

nor will any further procurdment exercise for tax credit checks be

:53:10.:53:13.

taken forward at this time. And thirdly, HMRC are in discussion with

:53:14.:53:17.

Concentrix to agree at negotiated early exit from the contract. While

:53:18.:53:25.

this may inform, it is just something I have to say, whhlst

:53:26.:53:28.

these commercial discussions are ongoing, I cannot provide all the

:53:29.:53:36.

full details of the exit at this stage but are expected to bd

:53:37.:53:45.

finalised shortly. Whilst mdmbers accept that there have been cases of

:53:46.:53:52.

hardship created, will she `lso accessed that in a written `nswer to

:53:53.:53:55.

the House, the minister indhcated that Concentrix were meeting its 75

:53:56.:54:03.

service data service level, had an average answer time of six linutes

:54:04.:54:07.

for phone calls, and were m`king decisions within 23 days, and

:54:08.:54:13.

indeed, of all the appeals that went to the Treasury, or HMRC, ott of

:54:14.:54:23.

660,000 cases, only 200 of them or not .6%, were upheld. Would she

:54:24.:54:30.

accept that not all of the blame goes on Concentrix, and Concentrix

:54:31.:54:34.

in many ways did meet the t`rgets but has now been made a scapegoat?

:54:35.:54:40.

Both in the urgent question on 4th September and today in my opening

:54:41.:54:44.

remarks I said that front lhne Concentrix staff had been vdry hard

:54:45.:54:48.

to resolve these issues. Thd problems of a contract like this,

:54:49.:54:52.

the problems of getting through on the phone, I never usually default

:54:53.:54:54.

of the person you finally gdt through to. -- they are nevdr

:54:55.:54:59.

usually the fall of the person you get through to. I suspect the

:55:00.:55:03.

honourable member represents people who work there. I also welcome the

:55:04.:55:11.

statement that we are terminating this contract with Concentrhx, I

:55:12.:55:14.

think that is the right thing to do. I have a number of constitudnts who

:55:15.:55:22.

have suffered this problem, one that provided evidence that they were

:55:23.:55:26.

married, in spite of that, she was identified as someone who lhved

:55:27.:55:29.

elsewhere and lived on her own and was not married. One thing that is

:55:30.:55:33.

available to members of Parliament which we have used is the elergency

:55:34.:55:36.

hotline and the fact that that emergency hardship payments, De she

:55:37.:55:41.

welcomed that fact and should we make that more publicly avahlable

:55:42.:55:47.

that these measures are avahlable to people in hardship? That is exactly

:55:48.:55:50.

right and it is one of the reason why today's debate is timelx, that

:55:51.:55:55.

we are able to focus on that. I will give way to the honourable lady who

:55:56.:56:02.

did so much to work on this matter. She has been very generous. On the

:56:03.:56:05.

contract specifically, it dhd alter last year, can she confirm to the

:56:06.:56:10.

House how the contract was ordered last October, and that it w`s

:56:11.:56:14.

altered because Concentrix were unable to make enough money out of

:56:15.:56:20.

it before October last year? I think if she will forgive me, I whll write

:56:21.:56:25.

to her on that, because as H say, there are commercial discussions

:56:26.:56:28.

ongoing and it would be best for something as detailed as th`t if she

:56:29.:56:36.

is written to. I know time hs precious. On the contract issue I

:56:37.:56:41.

appreciate she cannot divulges the terms of the ongoing negoti`tions

:56:42.:56:44.

for termination of the contract but will she commit to coming b`ck to

:56:45.:56:48.

the House and making a statdment as soon as the terms have been

:56:49.:56:50.

finalised? Could she also provide the information that she can obtain,

:56:51.:56:57.

for example, when was the dhstribute process that examine, -- thd dispute

:56:58.:57:04.

process? We are at the end of the contractual process here, wd just

:57:05.:57:10.

want to know what the timelhne was. Again, there are matters th`t I will

:57:11.:57:13.

return to in part because there are going to be a number of exalinations

:57:14.:57:17.

of this, the National Audit Office have already talked about the work

:57:18.:57:21.

they are going to do. I will come onto that. I am going to signal that

:57:22.:57:27.

I will take one more intervdntion. I have not taken one from my

:57:28.:57:30.

honourable friend. I will t`ke one from the SNP and then I will

:57:31.:57:34.

progress to the end of my speech. I can understand in the challdnges

:57:35.:57:39.

that have been made from thdse sides that she wishes to outsourcd blame

:57:40.:57:47.

purely to Concentrix's door, but this government read the contract

:57:48.:57:51.

and incentivise this behaviour, and also sent personal data is confirmed

:57:52.:57:56.

last week to Concentrix to investigate... I think he h`s

:57:57.:58:05.

concluded his intervention. Far from saying this is all Concentrhx's

:58:06.:58:09.

faults, I think there are ldssons to be learned all round. I shotld

:58:10.:58:13.

signal now that because I think there are lessons to be learned all

:58:14.:58:17.

round for HMRC, feminist is, certainly the Concentrix, I will say

:58:18.:58:21.

to the House now that the -, for minister, I will say to the House

:58:22.:58:25.

now that the government does not intend to divide the House because I

:58:26.:58:28.

want this to be an exercise in learning lessons. I will take one

:58:29.:58:35.

more intervention. I have h`d two Concentrix cases from singld

:58:36.:58:41.

mothers, one of whom was repuired to disprove a relationship she never

:58:42.:58:44.

had from a former tenant. Would she agree that the important thhng now

:58:45.:58:48.

is that this contract from Concentrix has been ended, but a

:58:49.:58:52.

system for investigating mistakes has been put in place and a hardship

:58:53.:58:54.

place has been put in place? We have come back to the hulan

:58:55.:59:02.

factor here and here is absolute right to highlight that this is at

:59:03.:59:07.

the heart of what we do, to get people back on payments werd they

:59:08.:59:10.

should be and will be peopld of hardship. Let me move towards the

:59:11.:59:14.

end of my remarks if I can `s quickly as I can. Mr Speaker has

:59:15.:59:18.

been very indulgent. Among the discussions that are happenhng at

:59:19.:59:23.

the moment, HMRC has agreed the transfer of Concentrix staff to

:59:24.:59:28.

HMRC. Concentrix have begun consulting with their staff on this

:59:29.:59:31.

point and anyone transferring to HMRC will be supported to ftrther

:59:32.:59:36.

training to help us deliver a quality public service. It `lso

:59:37.:59:40.

writes, as the motion suggested as the Shadow Minister challenges that

:59:41.:59:42.

we look long and hard at wh`t went so wrong when it came to

:59:43.:59:45.

Concentrix's performance and when it came to this whole matter. But only

:59:46.:59:50.

to be all that old people who were caused worry or distress as a result

:59:51.:59:54.

of these failures, but it's also vital that we learn from wh`t

:59:55.:59:59.

happened and prevent any further issues arising in any futurd

:00:00.:00:02.

projects that is by its mercy will be looking at how the contr`ct was

:00:03.:00:07.

managed. They have lessons to learn from this, the accept and h`ve given

:00:08.:00:10.

evidence already was less committee and will give evidence to at least

:00:11.:00:15.

one of. Learning lessons in undertaking analysis of the claims

:00:16.:00:19.

and I know honourable members will be keen to see an unbiased,

:00:20.:00:23.

independent assessment so as has been alluded to already, I will

:00:24.:00:28.

remind the House at the inddpendent National Audit Office which

:00:29.:00:30.

scrutinises public spending has announced that they will be

:00:31.:00:37.

conducting our report into the Concentrix contract and of course

:00:38.:00:40.

its mercy will be working vdry closely with the National Atdit

:00:41.:00:44.

Office and cooperating closdly with them to support that inquirx. These

:00:45.:00:51.

investigations will undoubtddly be a consideration of the knock-on

:00:52.:00:54.

effects that have been calls to other services provided by HMRC As

:00:55.:01:00.

I have outlined, its mercy have had to put out additional staff to cover

:01:01.:01:04.

these problems but I want to ensure the House that its mercy is managing

:01:05.:01:08.

this increased workloads effectively and again, it is a testimonx of the

:01:09.:01:13.

efforts to its staff. It is a reflection of the flexibility HMRC

:01:14.:01:16.

possesses. It is a large organisation capable of quickly

:01:17.:01:19.

moving stuff around and dealing with peaks of demands that they `re

:01:20.:01:23.

accustomed to date Gray handling of various types of the year. The meter

:01:24.:01:26.

and lastly to mitigating suffering which we have touched on several

:01:27.:01:31.

times throughout the debate. Our first course of action is to make

:01:32.:01:35.

sure that we got people's claims for tax credits back on track. HMRC are

:01:36.:01:40.

working hard to get the information needed from claimants to put anyone

:01:41.:01:45.

entitled to tax credits back into payment, including paying any of the

:01:46.:01:49.

years that they are entitled to In parallel, HMRC are taking forward a

:01:50.:01:53.

new request for reviews of Concentrix decisions and indeed many

:01:54.:01:57.

decisions have been overturned. Largely not due to errors, ht is

:01:58.:02:00.

fair to say. I have enquired into this. It is largely not due to

:02:01.:02:04.

errors but it is following the additional information that people

:02:05.:02:07.

have provided through the process of the mandatory review and so many of

:02:08.:02:10.

these problems are caused bdcause people did not or were not `ble to

:02:11.:02:14.

respond to the first timetable they were given. They have now provided

:02:15.:02:18.

that information and therefore the mandatory reconsideration, `s the

:02:19.:02:25.

honourable lady asked earlidr, they have provided that we have been able

:02:26.:02:29.

to then be assessed that cl`im. We have also made it a prioritx to

:02:30.:02:33.

address urgent cases of hardship through the usual mechanisms, but I

:02:34.:02:35.

will look at the point that the right honourable gentleman lade

:02:36.:02:38.

earlier, the chairman of thd select committee. If anyone has bedn caused

:02:39.:02:42.

undue distress or financial loss following errors or wrongdohng from

:02:43.:02:47.

Concentrix, they contact HMRC. Such complaints will be taken very

:02:48.:02:50.

seriously with a thorough examination of all the eviddnce

:02:51.:02:54.

Where mistakes have been made, HMRC will not only makes claimants are

:02:55.:02:58.

now being paid correctly, btt pays where appropriate. I think H would

:02:59.:03:04.

also say, and I think it wotld be held and colleagues to note, that

:03:05.:03:07.

out of this I have also askdd to be told on an ongoing basis thd issues

:03:08.:03:10.

that members of this House `re bringing up with HMRC because I

:03:11.:03:15.

agreed, someone used the phrase early warning signal earlier,

:03:16.:03:17.

members complaints and membdrs of all sides of the House have been

:03:18.:03:21.

reticent in their constituents, they are a very good early warning signal

:03:22.:03:27.

for when things may not be right. In conclusion, Madam Deputy Spdaker, it

:03:28.:03:29.

is undoubtedly the case that there remained too much fraud and error in

:03:30.:03:32.

the tax credit system. It is a copper plated system which ht is

:03:33.:03:37.

very easy to the Mac for many honours people to get wrong. 1. 7

:03:38.:03:47.

billion amount of fraud in 09 Gray 2014-15. Therefore it would make

:03:48.:03:51.

sense to spend extra money sensibly and sustainable and address this. We

:03:52.:03:55.

not only want to make sure that those who are entitled to t`x

:03:56.:03:59.

credits get them, but we all know that it is vital we prevent people

:04:00.:04:03.

getting overpayments which will then need to be paid back. We have all

:04:04.:04:08.

seen the enormous distress that this causes to vulnerable people when

:04:09.:04:13.

through often, just through missing, not applying the right information,

:04:14.:04:18.

getting muddled up with a form, people end up owing a lot of money

:04:19.:04:21.

and causes a lot of stress. Progress has been made on this issue. Fraud

:04:22.:04:26.

in the tax credit system is now close to its lowest level shnce the

:04:27.:04:29.

introduction in 2003 and we are not going to take a step back in our

:04:30.:04:33.

efforts to make sure that wd have a fair tax system where we to tackle

:04:34.:04:38.

noncompliance in all its forms and of course, we announced an dxtra

:04:39.:04:41.

?800 million of funding last year to do so. It has always got to be

:04:42.:04:44.

balanced by the need to keep providing both for financial support

:04:45.:04:49.

and quality customer servicd that people in this country, whatever

:04:50.:04:53.

their income level, are enthtled to and on this occasion, the b`lance

:04:54.:04:56.

was not appropriate. It is for that reason that we are taking the action

:04:57.:05:00.

I have outlined to put this situation right. We want to support

:05:01.:05:04.

people struggling with their claims, we want to reinstate payments to

:05:05.:05:07.

those who are entitled to them. I'm sure many of the comments that have

:05:08.:05:11.

been made so far in the deb`te follows are going to be fair. I

:05:12.:05:14.

would not agree with all thd points being made, but there has bden fair

:05:15.:05:18.

comment and for that reason, we will not support this notion tod`y. We

:05:19.:05:22.

was above all to get a fair outcome for everyone affected and wd want to

:05:23.:05:26.

learn important lessons to lake sure that we can ensure this sort of

:05:27.:05:30.

thing does not happen again and that we, as I say, learn lessons from the

:05:31.:05:35.

situation and most of all that we make sure these important ptblic

:05:36.:05:38.

services are working for thd most vulnerable in our communitids.

:05:39.:05:44.

Before I call the next honotrable lady, it will be obvious to the

:05:45.:05:49.

House that there are a great many people who want to speak thhs

:05:50.:05:56.

afternoon, so we will start with a voluntary time limit of eight

:05:57.:06:05.

minutes. And if that dash for back speeches. If that does not work I

:06:06.:06:10.

will impose a time limit of eight minutes. This time limit, voluntary

:06:11.:06:14.

or otherwise, does not in course applied to the for the Scottish

:06:15.:06:21.

National party, Murray Black. I want to rise to say that the SNP will be

:06:22.:06:29.

fully supporting Labour's motion today. I want to thank the lember

:06:30.:06:33.

for Salford and Eccles for laking the case so eloquently. I think it

:06:34.:06:37.

is worthwhile to remember or reiterate a couple of key points.

:06:38.:06:44.

HMRC gave this contract to Concentrix with the additional

:06:45.:06:49.

capacity to review the tax credit potentially based on incorrdct

:06:50.:06:53.

information. One of the main tasks of Concentrix was to find pdople

:06:54.:06:58.

with undisclosed partners, `t all to see a people were claiming the

:06:59.:07:01.

benefit as a signal person but were actually living with others. This is

:07:02.:07:04.

where the problem is where the problems really begin. Concdntrix

:07:05.:07:09.

spent a considerable amount of money putting out fishing style ldtters to

:07:10.:07:13.

try and catch people out cl`iming fraudulently. A written answer on

:07:14.:07:19.

the 7th of September, the Treasury minister said that Concentrhx sent

:07:20.:07:26.

out 381,000 letters to tax credit claimants requesting proof of single

:07:27.:07:31.

staters, more of the details for a partner's work, 3000 and asking for

:07:32.:07:36.

evidence of childcare use. Concentrix logic was that unless he

:07:37.:07:40.

replied with the appropriatd evidence, there are tax credits

:07:41.:07:43.

would be stopped. However, despite all these letters, apparently being

:07:44.:07:47.

sent out, thousands of people had absolutely no idea that thex were

:07:48.:07:51.

being investigated. Quite often they did not know that they were

:07:52.:07:54.

under investigation or that their tax credits had been stopped

:07:55.:08:00.

until... Thank you for giving way. Would you agree with me that given

:08:01.:08:05.

the clamp-down on supported fraudulent claims with thesd fishing

:08:06.:08:11.

letters, wouldn't it be good to CBC rigour applied to aggressivd

:08:12.:08:16.

corporate tax avoidance? Entirely. That's something I will touch on

:08:17.:08:23.

later! Once... Or you go. Gtzman was she also accept however that

:08:24.:08:29.

Concentrix, although they h`d so many cases referred to them, they

:08:30.:08:34.

whittled them down to less than one fifth of the cases that werd sent by

:08:35.:08:39.

HMRC, so had it been in HMRC's control, a lot more people lay have

:08:40.:08:42.

been affected than were acttally affected. I think one of thd other

:08:43.:08:48.

interesting points is that when we looked into that, with the work and

:08:49.:08:52.

pensions committee, we discovered that Concentrix actually have

:08:53.:08:55.

subcontractors, I believe three of them, but they were not allowed to

:08:56.:08:58.

go into detail about who or what their methods work or anythhng, so I

:08:59.:09:01.

think that is something the Government should hopefully answer.

:09:02.:09:06.

I'm going to make a bit of progress. Once we started to dig into this

:09:07.:09:09.

issue, because all of my constituents I dealt with, like many

:09:10.:09:14.

other members here, did not discover that their tax credits had stopped

:09:15.:09:17.

until they went to collect them from the bank and discovered that there

:09:18.:09:20.

was nothing. What we started to look into this, it is truly the lost

:09:21.:09:25.

ridiculous level of incompetence that I have ever heard. People were

:09:26.:09:30.

accused of being in relationships with ex-tenants 60 years thdir

:09:31.:09:33.

senior. They were accused of being in relationships with some of their

:09:34.:09:37.

own children. In my constittency, Scottish flat numbers seem to be a

:09:38.:09:42.

major cause of issue four Concentrix because they can get their head

:09:43.:09:45.

around the fact that flat one slash one and one slashed to work across

:09:46.:09:49.

the hall from each other and not the same house. The best one has to be

:09:50.:09:55.

the case of R S McCall. To give you some perspective, R S McCall is a

:09:56.:10:00.

corner shop in Scotland's that is as common as a WH Smith in England And

:10:01.:10:03.

yet people were being accusdd of living with this Mr McCall because

:10:04.:10:10.

their flat was above and RS McColl shop. At no point did anyond in

:10:11.:10:16.

Concentrix or HMRC think, w`it a minute, this Casanova is getting

:10:17.:10:21.

around a bit! At no point. This would almost be very funny... This

:10:22.:10:27.

would be funny until you relember that this is people's lives. This is

:10:28.:10:31.

their survival that we are talking about. I was part of the session

:10:32.:10:38.

where we heard from claimants who had their tax credits stoppdd and

:10:39.:10:41.

this is where we have to relember the human cost of this. Firstly we

:10:42.:10:45.

heard from a woman called M`rie who was a mother of two. She had six

:10:46.:10:50.

weeks with no support, did not discover that her benefit h`d

:10:51.:10:53.

stopped until she went to the bank. She said that she genuinely could

:10:54.:10:58.

not fill the cupboards with food and she spoke of the shame of h`ving to

:10:59.:11:01.

take her children to a food bank to be able to rely on the charhty of

:11:02.:11:06.

others to be able to eat. This was followed on by a woman calldd Sarah

:11:07.:11:10.

who had no hand. She sufferdd chronic pain every day of hdr life.

:11:11.:11:15.

She had two young children, both under the age of five I belheve and

:11:16.:11:23.

she spent a combined total of 1 hours on the phone waiting for

:11:24.:11:25.

someone from Concentrix to `nswer. When she finally got through, the

:11:26.:11:29.

present at the end of the phone kept saying, I don't know, you mtst form

:11:30.:11:32.

back and get someone else. She was asked to write a letter and she

:11:33.:11:36.

explained that she could not write due to her disability, only to be

:11:37.:11:39.

told, sorry, you'll have to find someone else to write it for you. At

:11:40.:11:43.

this point, this woman brokd down in tears in front of the committee She

:11:44.:11:47.

genuinely was so overwhelmed with emotion when she spoke of the fact

:11:48.:11:53.

that she had to look at her children knowing that she did not know where

:11:54.:11:56.

the next meal was coming from. Thank you for giving way. Dishes share my

:11:57.:11:59.

frustration that my constittent who was down to her last ?5 and was told

:12:00.:12:04.

to send documents to Concentrix by recorded delivery and had to make

:12:05.:12:07.

the decision about whether she fed her child or indeed says those

:12:08.:12:10.

documents? I'm sure she will agree with me that this is absolutely

:12:11.:12:15.

horrific. It is absolutely completely disgusting for this to be

:12:16.:12:17.

happening under the watch of Government. I think it is worth

:12:18.:12:22.

remembering that when we talk about these individual horrendous cases,

:12:23.:12:26.

these are not unfortunate examples or a rare examples. This is

:12:27.:12:31.

happening throughout the UK. I have to say, whoever made the music that

:12:32.:12:36.

gets plays when you are put on hold at Concentrix must be making a

:12:37.:12:39.

fortune because my whole office can whistle it off the top of their

:12:40.:12:42.

heads because we were kept on hold so long and that is when we were on

:12:43.:12:46.

the MPs hotline. The fact you have people who don't have access to our

:12:47.:12:50.

hotline having to sit on thd phone for up to 90 minutes sometiles is

:12:51.:12:55.

absolutely horrendous. I will give way. I want there it went other

:12:56.:13:01.

colleagues had the experience that my staff had which is that

:13:02.:13:06.

Concentrix flatly refuse to deal with them and said that it would

:13:07.:13:11.

have to be the MP they would speak to? We were only there one day a

:13:12.:13:14.

week and that maybe the timd when it is not easy to take the history the

:13:15.:13:20.

constituent. It's also worth remembering that this number people

:13:21.:13:24.

were being asked to phone w`s in all 845 number, so it cost an absolute

:13:25.:13:28.

fortune and I think anyone hn this refined it cost a fortune so imagine

:13:29.:13:32.

just how much of a pressure that would put on somebody who not only

:13:33.:13:35.

qualifies for tax credits already but has now been told that they are

:13:36.:13:39.

not getting it. I am going to make a bit of progress. Finally, when we

:13:40.:13:46.

got through to people, we wdre told they had to apply for a mandatory

:13:47.:13:51.

reconsideration is, only to discover that the contact also deleg`ted

:13:52.:13:55.

extensive decision-making power to Concentrix, including the processing

:13:56.:13:59.

of mandatory be considerations. This private company has to investigate

:14:00.:14:03.

itself to find out if it's lade the correct decision, bearing in mind

:14:04.:14:06.

that this contract states that they should only be paid on the basis of

:14:07.:14:13.

results. This entire contract has been a shambles and ludicrots from

:14:14.:14:18.

the very start. As if all this wasn't bad enough, during that

:14:19.:14:23.

evidence session at the comlittee, Concentrix admitted that 90,95% of

:14:24.:14:28.

all mandatory reconsideration is were upheld. 95% were upheld. This

:14:29.:14:33.

company was openly admitting that they only got it right 5% of the

:14:34.:14:39.

time and this is with the pdople who have applied for an appeal. How many

:14:40.:14:43.

people have had their benefhts stolen from them who haven't gone

:14:44.:14:45.

I think it is worth the honourable for a mandatory reconsideration

:14:46.:14:52.

I think it is worth the honourable lady, it is worth saying off in the

:14:53.:15:01.

region and Manningtree reconsideration succeeded is that

:15:02.:15:05.

the information is supplied to that timetable. It is not fair to say it

:15:06.:15:09.

is always because it is wrong, it is sometimes because then the

:15:10.:15:12.

information has been supplidd at that point and the claim can be

:15:13.:15:17.

reinstated. But you have to be remembering that HMRC and the

:15:18.:15:22.

government were supplying information to Concentrix, so a lot

:15:23.:15:26.

of the fault was on the govdrnment. I was talking earlier about

:15:27.:15:33.

government responsibility, but for the UK Government to take rdsponse

:15:34.:15:37.

Muti, does she agree that the only way that can happen is not only

:15:38.:15:40.

substantial and appropriate compensation, but for full `pologies

:15:41.:15:48.

to be given to those constituents who were dealt with Romney by -

:15:49.:15:54.

wrongly by this government `nd Concentrix? When Concentrix were

:15:55.:16:04.

saying 95% of the filter upheld in the next Parliament, it was said it

:16:05.:16:14.

was 73%. I'm going to make some progress. This is such a farce

:16:15.:16:20.

between government and Concdntrix, they cannot even agree on how many

:16:21.:16:25.

times they got it wrong. Thhs is a ridiculous situation to find

:16:26.:16:28.

ourselves in. Meanwhile there are people having to go to food banks to

:16:29.:16:35.

then come home to their child crying because they do not want Tesco 0p

:16:36.:16:39.

polonaise for the third timd that week. I can appreciate that mistakes

:16:40.:16:44.

can happen, in all walks of life, no matter what job you are in, mistakes

:16:45.:16:50.

can happen. But the reality is when mistakes are made by governlent

:16:51.:16:53.

people suffer, and quite often the most vulnerable people. Whilst we

:16:54.:16:58.

support the Labour motion wholeheartedly, we have to highlight

:16:59.:17:01.

that the government has to blame some of the blame for this. The

:17:02.:17:05.

contract states that HMRC is required to monitor the exercise and

:17:06.:17:09.

remains responsible for the actions carried out by the contractor. I do

:17:10.:17:14.

not believe this government has done that adequately. The most d`mning

:17:15.:17:19.

thing of this entire saga is that Concentrix were under the ilpression

:17:20.:17:22.

that the contract was going to be renewed. It was only after the media

:17:23.:17:26.

cottoned onto this and began writing about it, after their worth 670

:17:27.:17:34.

formal complaints put in by elected member to HMRC, that the he`t began

:17:35.:17:37.

to be turned up and this began to be taken seriously. The vice president

:17:38.:17:44.

of Concentrix said that he was only given 15 minutes notice before he

:17:45.:17:48.

went on a flight that the contract was not being renewed, and he

:17:49.:17:51.

pleaded with HMRC to be givdn an hour in order to inform staff. An

:17:52.:17:58.

hour was the difference between this company thinking they had a contract

:17:59.:18:02.

that was going to be renewed and it being taken away because of the

:18:03.:18:07.

shambolic work. An hour 's difference. The level of

:18:08.:18:10.

incompetence is truly incredible and we cannot ignore that and place all

:18:11.:18:15.

the blame on Concentrix. Wh`t needs to be done now? In the first

:18:16.:18:22.

instance, the honourable melber raised the fact of the ?100 being

:18:23.:18:28.

given to people, but in all of my cases, my constituents have been

:18:29.:18:32.

told that that ?100 will be taken back from benefits, and that

:18:33.:18:36.

something has to be looked `t. If we are all being told that, it is

:18:37.:18:41.

clearly an issue. To deal whth this particular rubble, the buck has to

:18:42.:18:45.

stop with HMRC. We have to legislate so that this is never allowdd to

:18:46.:18:50.

again. I think the government has to bring this kind of thing back

:18:51.:18:57.

in-house. It has got to be back to be the day-to-day responsibhlity of

:18:58.:19:01.

the government. We cannot s`y to a private company, we want yot to make

:19:02.:19:05.

?1 billion of cuts but we are only going to pay you on results basis,

:19:06.:19:08.

that is a recipe for disastdr and it is a kind of thing which happen

:19:09.:19:13.

again. One of the main reason this happened in the first place is

:19:14.:19:16.

because of a lack of resources and because farmers are

:19:17.:25:40.

I think it all the member for his comments. I think we need to find

:25:41.:25:49.

that what went wrong, looking at what is brought out in a few minutes

:25:50.:25:52.

and then deal with the issuds rather than getting out whether a gesture

:25:53.:25:56.

of apology should be made. That said, I am glad that the motion is

:25:57.:26:01.

not being nit-picked. We will support it today and I think that

:26:02.:26:07.

speaks in itself. Given the issues that have been raised to myself I

:26:08.:26:11.

did welcome the action the Government took of making it very

:26:12.:26:14.

clear that the contract would not be renewed. Sending no new casds, I

:26:15.:26:19.

think it has been over a month since the last case was spent to

:26:20.:26:22.

Concentrix and also the fact that HMRC is moving in to resolvd many of

:26:23.:26:29.

these issues. I will make some progress for now. I think in terms

:26:30.:26:35.

of HMRC moving in, is probably worth saying that this is an organisation

:26:36.:26:39.

that has had its own issues in the past with customer service. In fact,

:26:40.:26:43.

in the next quarter of an hour, my fellow members of the committee will

:26:44.:26:48.

be examining HMRC's customer services stop while there h`ve been

:26:49.:26:52.

recent improvements, many mdmbers sat in the chambers today whll have

:26:53.:26:55.

had their own experiences of sitting on the hotline and waiting to get

:26:56.:27:02.

through. Briefly, yes. Is it not surprising that when HMRC wdre

:27:03.:27:07.

challenged as to how many c`ses they dealt with where there was drror and

:27:08.:27:11.

how long it took them to respond to those errors, they could not give

:27:12.:27:14.

the figures so we don't even have a comparison between HMRC's

:27:15.:27:18.

performance and Concentrix's performance? What I would s`y is

:27:19.:27:23.

added to this afternoon we have quite a detailed report produced by

:27:24.:27:29.

the NHL on HMRC's annual report being discussed at the Publhc

:27:30.:27:32.

Accounts Committee which gods into quite some depth around HMRC's

:27:33.:27:36.

standards and customer servhce standards that covers many of the

:27:37.:27:39.

points and can be read in comparison with what we have heard abott

:27:40.:27:43.

Concentrix. It is also worth saying that given the comments that have

:27:44.:27:47.

been made on it, the other thing being discussed this afternoon by

:27:48.:27:49.

the Public Accounts Committde is the issue around the tax gap and

:27:50.:27:54.

ensuring that HMRC is meeting the performance we expected to hn terms

:27:55.:27:56.

of ensuring that the taxes we legislate for in this House are paid

:27:57.:28:01.

by those who are required to pay them. Given the comments th`t we

:28:02.:28:06.

have already had, though I do genuinely welcome the fact that the

:28:07.:28:10.

National Audit Office will be taking an investigation into this, I think

:28:11.:28:13.

elements of this debate are slightly premature in what we have hdard in

:28:14.:28:16.

that the National Audit Offhce will be investigating this area `nd I

:28:17.:28:21.

have to say, the only intervention I was going to make on the Sh`dow

:28:22.:28:26.

minister was her about having an independent inquiry commisshoned by

:28:27.:28:29.

the Government. I was struggling to think of how more independent the

:28:30.:28:34.

inquiry could be the the National Audit Office who, let's be clear, is

:28:35.:28:39.

not an arm of Government. It is not of this Parliament, it prodtces its

:28:40.:28:42.

report independently, yes it will yeas with Treasury ministers and

:28:43.:28:48.

officials around ensuring f`cts are agreed in terms of current hts

:28:49.:28:51.

conclusions, but ultimately, the controller general and his team

:28:52.:28:55.

answer to this has via the `ccounts committee added has to be s`id, it

:28:56.:28:59.

has never held back in the past of making comments of no matter how

:29:00.:29:02.

difficult or challenging for for Government departments, frol doing

:29:03.:29:07.

so were required and obviously, if she makes to make an intervdntion in

:29:08.:29:11.

towing is how another inquiry would be different to that is, th`t from

:29:12.:29:14.

me, getting the National Audit Office to look at it delivering a

:29:15.:29:17.

report that can be fully in,depth leas scrutinised in this Hotse from

:29:18.:29:22.

a team of subject expert to understand how HMRC works,

:29:23.:29:25.

understand how the DWP and benefit system works and who actually owe a

:29:26.:29:29.

duty to Parliament, not the Government is, I think is actually

:29:30.:29:33.

the right way forward and actually be depth of information will inform

:29:34.:29:36.

future debate on the subject. I will briefly give way.

:29:37.:29:41.

If it's not clear is that they approach towards HMRC which has been

:29:42.:29:47.

over a number of years to rdduce the number of stop us to stop and stop

:29:48.:29:53.

today. But the current cop government programme to redtce it

:29:54.:29:56.

from 55 to 35,000 is short-sighted and clearly from the evidence it is

:29:57.:30:03.

time to reverse the procedure. I perhaps encourage the honourable

:30:04.:30:06.

gentleman to read the HMRC report that is being discussed the suckling

:30:07.:30:09.

baby Public Accounts Committee, it might well be worth even if he gets

:30:10.:30:14.

the chance to attend the session and it is worth noting that HMRC with

:30:15.:30:19.

new leadership which I think has been needed in an organisathon for

:30:20.:30:23.

some time it is starting to turn around the customer service, moving

:30:24.:30:28.

stuff in to make sure more stuff dealing with post and actually some

:30:29.:30:33.

evidence that the customer service is improving but is open to see but

:30:34.:30:37.

I know some of those asserthons will be tested quite robust lead by a

:30:38.:30:43.

number of members including his own colleague who is a member of the

:30:44.:30:47.

Public Accounts Committee. H think it is vital that the investhgation

:30:48.:30:52.

is full and that we look at what comes out. I welcome the news from

:30:53.:30:55.

the minister that there is ` negotiation going on around the

:30:56.:31:01.

contract earlier. For obviots reason we can't go into the detail of that

:31:02.:31:05.

today but I hope they will be sharing in with the NIO the -- to

:31:06.:31:13.

bring this whole sorry tales to an end. That's why I think in terms of

:31:14.:31:20.

drawing before conclusions out of this, it is clear people have been

:31:21.:31:23.

caused pain and suffering when it should not have been caused. People

:31:24.:31:27.

have been subjected to allegations that were not going to be true, the

:31:28.:31:32.

philandering shop, the person living down the road, someone who has been

:31:33.:31:36.

dead for some years and the way the contractor went about in terms of

:31:37.:31:41.

letters, they looked very shmilar to efficient government HMRC ldtters

:31:42.:31:44.

were the contractor 's logo on it, some debate as to whether in future

:31:45.:31:48.

we should really have symbol being used on a letter being sent by

:31:49.:31:55.

contractors. A debate to be had there to ensure a donation. I just

:31:56.:32:04.

want, many of the constituents who came to me did not appear to have

:32:05.:32:10.

received a letter tile and H just wonder, a letter with some strange

:32:11.:32:14.

logo on it might not registdr as what it is about and therefore might

:32:15.:32:19.

get overlooked. I queued thd point. From a own constituency, it cuts

:32:20.:32:26.

both ways, a logo that lookdd like it was from HMRC, they wonddred what

:32:27.:32:29.

it was about, likewise would do better is like I think it w`s a

:32:30.:32:35.

further in enquiry and the information that the NAO brhngs

:32:36.:32:45.

they will go into the detail around the customer service. From previous

:32:46.:32:47.

reports they have been extrdmely thorough when doing so. Bringing my

:32:48.:32:53.

remarks to conclusion I would say aye welcome the overall tond of the

:32:54.:33:01.

Minister's response to the lotion today. I welcome that the Government

:33:02.:33:05.

to clear and decisive action to bring this contract to an end and is

:33:06.:33:08.

continuing to do that and prevent more people having to experhence the

:33:09.:33:12.

issues that many members have highlighted today. Ultimately I

:33:13.:33:15.

would say aye hope that the monitoring will go on because of as

:33:16.:33:18.

we have seen in passages were HMRC and in solution isn't necessarily a

:33:19.:33:22.

magic bullet to domestic customers are service as we only have to look

:33:23.:33:25.

through the history of the better HMRC's performance to see that. I

:33:26.:33:28.

welcome some of the tone of the debate we have had the suckling but

:33:29.:33:31.

I think it is absolutely cldar we need to resolve the outstanding

:33:32.:33:43.

cases -- this afternoon. It is pleasure a to speed on this debate

:33:44.:33:46.

and to follow the honourabld member for Torre. I wanted -- Torb`y. It

:33:47.:33:54.

was very useful to have the detailed and constructive responses that she

:33:55.:33:58.

offered the House in relation to the operation of the contract, but I

:33:59.:34:02.

want to open remarks by drawing the attention to the policy isstes that

:34:03.:34:06.

underlie the difficulty we have got. From many years we saw a security

:34:07.:34:13.

system -- Social Security sxstem designed and operated in a way that

:34:14.:34:18.

serve to target, judge and stigmatise particularly single

:34:19.:34:20.

parents. I thought we had stopped doing that. And yet the operation of

:34:21.:34:26.

this contract certainly as far as the experiences of my own

:34:27.:34:30.

constituents are concerned hs that that group of claimants havd been

:34:31.:34:34.

particularly affected by thd way in which this contract has been

:34:35.:34:39.

designed and operated. And of course a single parents, not always but in

:34:40.:34:44.

most cases, will be women. Women who take responsibility for raising

:34:45.:34:49.

their children alone. I think there is a real question from minhsters to

:34:50.:34:52.

answer about the policy deshgn that led to that group of women being so

:34:53.:34:58.

damaged and targeted by the operation of the contract and I hope

:34:59.:35:02.

that the minister when I rahsed the question with her earlier I don t

:35:03.:35:07.

think she interested but I hope the NAO report can look at it and not

:35:08.:35:12.

just how it operated but how it was designed and what behaviour is

:35:13.:35:16.

incentivised. I agree with the honourable member for Torbax that

:35:17.:35:21.

nobody condones fraud in thd benefits system. It undermines

:35:22.:35:24.

confidence in the system and denies access to the system for those who

:35:25.:35:30.

are entitled to benefit frol it What I am particularly saying, when

:35:31.:35:33.

the system is being operated in a way that starts to make asstmptions

:35:34.:35:37.

about intimate relationships and living arrangements, these `re of

:35:38.:35:44.

necessity intrusive matters. It is incumbent on government and its

:35:45.:35:48.

agents to handle them with great sensitivity and with great care But

:35:49.:35:52.

it seems pretty clear from `ll we have heard about the operathon of

:35:53.:35:55.

this contract that Concentrhx did not bother to do that. Instdad,

:35:56.:36:00.

perhaps steered by ministers, perhaps because of the results

:36:01.:36:08.

model, on which we were earning -- warning early on of the dangers

:36:09.:36:13.

Concentrix team -- seems to have taken the flimsiest evidencd at face

:36:14.:36:17.

value to determine that people in their view must be living whth

:36:18.:36:21.

undisclosed partners and thdn in many cases without any further

:36:22.:36:27.

meaningful enquiry their tax credits would be stopped. I will give way.

:36:28.:36:34.

While members have rightly identified the incentivised nation

:36:35.:36:38.

but there was, she accept that of the 1.5 million cases sent by HMRC

:36:39.:36:45.

two consenting state only acted on a fifth of them, that when it came to

:36:46.:36:54.

the mandatory review the reviewed positively 95% which would go

:36:55.:36:58.

against the argument of incdntivised nation and Windows case went to

:36:59.:37:04.

appeal, less than 0.005% cases were actually overturned which would

:37:05.:37:08.

indicate that Concentrix were well aware that they had to obey certain

:37:09.:37:14.

rules when it came to dealing with these cases. I actually think that

:37:15.:37:21.

looking at a fifth of cases and assuming they make the fraudulent is

:37:22.:37:26.

a kind proportion because I think they acknowledge that fraud in the

:37:27.:37:30.

security system is very low so I am not sure I completely accept the

:37:31.:37:33.

analysis there and I think the whole house has expressed concerns this

:37:34.:37:40.

afternoon as has the NAO th`t the results model has to be deshgned

:37:41.:37:48.

very carefully. The result was that constituents of mine and around the

:37:49.:37:52.

House were put in an imposshble position of having to prove often a

:37:53.:37:57.

negative, proving that they didn't deliver somebody, often somdone they

:37:58.:38:02.

didn't know, someone that sometimes didn't even exist. Cases th`t I have

:38:03.:38:07.

seen include a woman being `sked about an undisclosed partner who was

:38:08.:38:10.

a previous tenant of the property who had moved out nine years ago.

:38:11.:38:17.

Who was accused of living whth a previous tenant, a constitudnt who

:38:18.:38:24.

was told that her undisclosdd partner was in fact an individual

:38:25.:38:28.

who was her landlord and perhaps the most bizarre case of all, a

:38:29.:38:31.

constituent who appeared to be told that her undisclosed partner was in

:38:32.:38:36.

fact her mother. With whom she lived. Requests for evidencd from

:38:37.:38:40.

Concentrix that were then provided might buy my constituents wdre too

:38:41.:38:44.

often ignored when submitted or sometimes in Semtex given the wrong

:38:45.:38:49.

address for evidence to be sent back to. -- Concentrix. The lettdrs

:38:50.:38:54.

didn't necessarily look verx convincing to my constituents. One

:38:55.:38:59.

drew attention to the fact that many of the words were misspelt, that

:39:00.:39:04.

they were full of errors and she told me that overall conclusion when

:39:05.:39:07.

Concentrix got in touch with was that she was the victim of some sort

:39:08.:39:13.

of scam. Sometimes evidence couldn't be produced. In two cases that I

:39:14.:39:17.

have dealt with constituents were asked to submit utility bills but

:39:18.:39:20.

they were living with their parents and utility bills would not being

:39:21.:39:28.

issued in their name. We also heard this afternoon that when

:39:29.:39:31.

constituents did try to deal with Concentrix and explain their

:39:32.:39:36.

circumstances on the telephone they met with repeated instances of poor

:39:37.:39:39.

customer service and were unable to get through to explain the

:39:40.:39:44.

circumstances that they facdd. Even when there was clear evidence of

:39:45.:39:51.

Concentrix being in error, H consider it troubling that ly

:39:52.:39:54.

constituents were told they would have to go through a formal process

:39:55.:39:59.

of mandatory reconsideration, and extra barrier when in fact

:40:00.:40:02.

Concentrix should have immediately said they have made a mistake and we

:40:03.:40:08.

will get the situation put right. I am also troubled, and we he`rd from

:40:09.:40:12.

the Minister, that the commhtment to get tax credits into payment was for

:40:13.:40:19.

a period within four days after an investigation had been concluded. Of

:40:20.:40:22.

course I understand time nedds to be taken to look at the circumstances

:40:23.:40:26.

of a claim but we do need some sort of time-limit overall on how long

:40:27.:40:30.

that investigation is going to take. We can't leave constituents for

:40:31.:40:34.

weeks and weeks that matter being result. The consequences for my

:40:35.:40:40.

constituents and four honourable members constituents around the

:40:41.:40:43.

House had been extremely hard. Housing benefit stopped, in one case

:40:44.:40:47.

I had to intervene to prevent the constituent from being thre`tened

:40:48.:40:52.

with eviction. Debt mounting. Women forced as we have heard for the

:40:53.:40:57.

first time to go to food banks, one mother who in my constituency was

:40:58.:41:01.

unable to pay her nursery fdes and was told to remove her child.

:41:02.:41:04.

Another case where children had to be sent away to live with rdlatives

:41:05.:41:08.

because the mother was no longer able to feed them or keep the home.

:41:09.:41:12.

I think the second policy point to which you draw the Minister's

:41:13.:41:16.

attention is how years especially dicing this contract terms of the

:41:17.:41:22.

impact on children. The Govdrnment has to face up to fact that both

:41:23.:41:27.

policy and the execution must be underpinned with an obligathon to

:41:28.:41:32.

prioritise the well-being of children and in this contract that

:41:33.:41:36.

clearly was not the case. It is really iniquitous that the prompt of

:41:37.:41:41.

this chaos should be borne by women and children, something that an

:41:42.:41:44.

equality impact assessment of the policy and its execution ought to

:41:45.:41:48.

have addressed, it wasn't mdntioned by the ministers afternoon, it

:41:49.:41:51.

wasn't mentioned by the economic Secretary to the Treasury in the

:41:52.:41:54.

debate that we had in Westmhnster Hall last week, I really hope in

:41:55.:41:58.

summing up the debate this `fternoon the Minister will tell us what

:41:59.:42:01.

equality impact assessment was carried out and what adjustlents

:42:02.:42:05.

were made to the policy as ` result because in the end, this has been a

:42:06.:42:11.

disgraceful catalogue of errors and mistreatment. I am pleased the

:42:12.:42:14.

contract is being terminated and I am very pleased that the NAO is to

:42:15.:42:19.

carry out a full review of what went wrong. They want to echo thd

:42:20.:42:21.

questions asked by colleaguds around the House, compensation is going to

:42:22.:42:26.

be paid to constituents who have borne the brunt of this erroneous

:42:27.:42:29.

management of the contract, what penalties are going to be ilposed on

:42:30.:42:33.

Concentrix, but has been thd overall cost to the taxpayer of

:42:34.:42:37.

mismanagement of the contract in this way including the cost of the

:42:38.:42:40.

spec that we have seen in appeals? I echo the concerned that it lay be

:42:41.:42:47.

philosophically at best inappropriate for intrusive

:42:48.:42:50.

enquiries into people's personal circumstances to be carried out for

:42:51.:42:55.

commercial gain and rewarded by results, I ask the Minister review

:42:56.:42:57.

whether it is appropriate that somewhere through the formal process

:42:58.:43:03.

when in fact a simple error has been made by the contracting company and

:43:04.:43:08.

whether it is simply dealing with an error there and then would be a more

:43:09.:43:13.

effective and fair way to proceed. Finally I am very grateful to the

:43:14.:43:18.

Minister for saying that her fundamental thrust is to look

:43:19.:43:23.

overall at what lessons can be learned. Will she undertake to

:43:24.:43:26.

return to the House to report on those and and how she intends to

:43:27.:43:34.

employ the learning that is gained? Thank you for calling me to speak.

:43:35.:43:40.

Today's debate is primarily about the delivery and customer sdrvice of

:43:41.:43:44.

the HMRC contractor Concentrix and the impact of their work and those

:43:45.:43:50.

on tax credits wrongly suspdcted of fraud or error.

:43:51.:44:06.

It is also about more than that It is about the relative value,

:44:07.:44:15.

efficiency and service of third-party contracts against direct

:44:16.:44:20.

delivery by government or government agencies. It is about how

:44:21.:44:26.

government, in this case HMRC reacts to an unexpected crisis, ie when the

:44:27.:44:32.

mandatory reconsideration appeals rose 95% in August while thd success

:44:33.:44:38.

of handling calls dropped off a cliff, how quickly and what

:44:39.:44:43.

contingency plans are in pl`ce, then it is about whether the strtcture of

:44:44.:44:48.

incentives, the commission contractor, are appropriate for this

:44:49.:44:53.

kind of public service delivery and while an internal investigation goes

:44:54.:44:59.

on, today is going to be too early to offer definitive answers. At the

:45:00.:45:03.

enquiry by our work and pensions Select Committee and the Minister's

:45:04.:45:06.

measured comments today offdr some clues to which I have my own

:45:07.:45:12.

experience dealing with constituents affected and observations from what

:45:13.:45:16.

we learnt on the Select Comlittee. The first of these has to bd that

:45:17.:45:21.

the essential task for this process, the goal which was to reducd HMRC

:45:22.:45:28.

estimates of fraud and error, is a right goal for the government to

:45:29.:45:34.

have. The estimates which are the most recent is a net 1.2 billion of

:45:35.:45:40.

fraud and error on tax credhts involving potentially have ` million

:45:41.:45:45.

people. We cannot spend billions of taxpayer money on welfare wdbsite

:45:46.:45:50.

government rightly making stre that it is spent properly. In thd same

:45:51.:45:55.

way that we expect our international development Department to m`ke sure

:45:56.:45:59.

that the accounts are correct and money is spent in the right way We

:46:00.:46:05.

also expect the European Unhon to account for its taxpayer money

:46:06.:46:12.

correctly. The member is absolutely right that rich people and dvery

:46:13.:46:17.

company should pay the right amount of tax and I would simply s`y that

:46:18.:46:21.

this is not the case of either a war, it is a case of both. This

:46:22.:46:27.

government is absolutely right to increase HMRC resources on

:46:28.:46:31.

collecting the right amount of tax for those who have tax to p`y, and

:46:32.:46:35.

making sure that welfare benefits are received by the right pdople in

:46:36.:46:42.

the right amounts. The second point, sorry, lastly on that, it is worth

:46:43.:46:49.

noting that the ?270 million recovered from this programle is of

:46:50.:46:53.

course a decent contribution both to reducing that fraud and makhng sure

:46:54.:46:57.

that that money is availabld to the people who need it most. Secondly,

:46:58.:47:04.

there has of course been a cost during this process the hard-working

:47:05.:47:10.

not well-off constituents. The dozen or so cases that I have replied to

:47:11.:47:15.

come in every case there has been a degree of hardship and in some cases

:47:16.:47:21.

considerable hardship, which is why the HMRC response and the speed is,

:47:22.:47:29.

and was, so important. My sdnse from the enquiry was that HMRC chief

:47:30.:47:35.

executive John Thompson is looking at how quickly HMRC responddd, but

:47:36.:47:40.

it is true that the moment that HMRC did take a grip, beef up resources,

:47:41.:47:45.

put extra staff into the hotline, that my office certainly were able

:47:46.:47:53.

to resolve very fast the cases of people on tax credits that they

:47:54.:47:57.

brought to us. I am not surd that all of them were resolved whthin 48

:47:58.:48:02.

hours, but all of them were resolved within three or four days and some

:48:03.:48:06.

within a few hours. Indeed, our own Select Committee chairman actually

:48:07.:48:13.

said that he cannot recall `n experience where, thank goodness,

:48:14.:48:19.

the executive has acted so puickly when they have seen a crisis. I do

:48:20.:48:23.

think that that should be on the record. It is credit to high HMRC

:48:24.:48:30.

did respond to this and in the evidence we took from peopld

:48:31.:48:35.

affected was one particularly gracious thank you to HMRC for

:48:36.:48:39.

resolving one individual's crisis quickly. That brings us to ly third

:48:40.:48:45.

point and it is the question of contracts to third parties `nd the

:48:46.:48:50.

incentive system within that. I think the National Audit Office has

:48:51.:48:53.

recognised that this is a vdry complex area, the case I thhnk the

:48:54.:48:58.

jury is still out on how successful this has been over the last few

:48:59.:49:05.

years, and the HMRC chief executive and took me when I raised this

:49:06.:49:09.

question by making an interdsting remark. He said, no doubt, what is

:49:10.:49:18.

the balance of incentives on third parties in these kind of contracts?

:49:19.:49:22.

Because this is essentially based on commission earned. Is that the right

:49:23.:49:27.

kind of incentive mechanism for this kind of public service delivery It

:49:28.:49:33.

is a valid question. HMRC Chief Executive himself reflected on it. I

:49:34.:49:37.

have no doubt that the investigation will also discuss whether bringing

:49:38.:49:43.

in this kind of contract wotld ensure better quality control, more

:49:44.:49:49.

experienced of handling tax credits and possibly at reduced cost. It

:49:50.:49:53.

looked from the evidence th`t we took that broadly speaking content

:49:54.:49:57.

Rex will have been paid but the time the contract is to an end about ?27

:49:58.:50:05.

million on 270 million of fraud or error identified, implying ` 10

:50:06.:50:09.

commission. That feels very high but these figures at this stage are

:50:10.:50:13.

probably hypothetical and whll need to be confirmed in due course. In

:50:14.:50:21.

all of this, the government, HMRC and concentric stone are absolutely

:50:22.:50:25.

right to start with an apology to those who have suffered. It is

:50:26.:50:30.

incredibly important that when mistakes are made to recognhse them

:50:31.:50:35.

immediately. I think the wax that HMRC can start -- started whth the

:50:36.:50:43.

executive committee with apologies is an important starting pohnt.

:50:44.:50:49.

Clearly there is question about compensation for affected. @s the

:50:50.:50:55.

amendment today puts it tow`rds the end, the government should dnsure

:50:56.:50:59.

that those people on tax crddits are treated by HMRC in future whth

:51:00.:51:09.

dignity and respect. I think that should go to everybody that the

:51:10.:51:14.

government deals with. We all have a duty to treat our constituents with

:51:15.:51:20.

dignity and respect. My own experience with HMRC, they have been

:51:21.:51:28.

very helpful on every occashon. In conclusion, I think today's debate,

:51:29.:51:33.

the way it has been held has been very measured, the tone across the

:51:34.:51:36.

house has been reflective and thoughtful. Clearly there are

:51:37.:51:41.

lessons to be learnt. It is absolutely correct that tax

:51:42.:51:44.

collection is done and welf`re benefits are spent on the rhght way

:51:45.:51:48.

on the right people, that there is a rapid response to mistakes,

:51:49.:51:52.

contingency plans are held by agencies like HMRC and that bad

:51:53.:51:58.

service is treated and amended as quickly as possible, therefore I

:51:59.:52:03.

welcome this opportunity to discuss some preliminary thoughts on the

:52:04.:52:06.

lessons that can be learnt `nd look forward in due course to seding what

:52:07.:52:09.

the National Audit Office rdport produces. The previous speakers .. I

:52:10.:52:26.

know I have to impose a timd limit, a formal time limits, of seven

:52:27.:52:29.

minutes. Torrie Wilson. This government has made it clear

:52:30.:52:46.

that the burden of posteritx must be borne most by those most

:52:47.:52:51.

disadvantaged in our societx. They have made it clear by the rdpeated

:52:52.:52:55.

assaults on the welfare state and the victimisation of the disabled in

:52:56.:52:59.

the system of sanctions and the attacks on benefits for our young

:53:00.:53:03.

people. They had made it cldar that tax credits cost too much under a

:53:04.:53:06.

train on the public purse. They had made it clear in the handling of the

:53:07.:53:12.

Concentrix contracts that the suffering and hardship causdd by

:53:13.:53:14.

this is not their concern. The government did not seem too

:53:15.:53:19.

concerned over targeting single parents, or working parents forced

:53:20.:53:23.

to give up jobs, or families forced out on the streets. None of these

:53:24.:53:30.

reasons were given as a contributing factor in the drawing of thd

:53:31.:53:33.

Concentrix contracts. The statement given by the treachery exhibition --

:53:34.:53:39.

explicitly said that despitd the best effort of staff manning the

:53:40.:53:44.

phones, with the high volumd of calls that has not been the high

:53:45.:53:47.

level of customer service that the public expects. Therefore, HMRC has

:53:48.:53:54.

given notice of the contract not being renewed. I am not surd... I'm

:53:55.:54:03.

sure I am not alone in having a list of constituents being seriotsly out

:54:04.:54:07.

of pocket waiting to speak to somebody at Concentrix. It hs this

:54:08.:54:16.

government that came up at the model to indiscriminately target

:54:17.:54:19.

low-income families. The contract awarded to Concentrix was b`sed on

:54:20.:54:24.

payment for results creating a clear conflict-of-interest. It was this

:54:25.:54:29.

government that supplied Concentrix with 1.5 million payment records

:54:30.:54:35.

like that high risk. A constituent of mine, Lauren, is a mother of two

:54:36.:54:39.

children. She has been faildd by the system. She found herself in the

:54:40.:54:43.

centre of a perfect storm. She suffers from anxiety and panic

:54:44.:54:47.

attacks and despite having ` line from her doctor lost her job for

:54:48.:54:52.

being built. Her employer dhd not play statutory sick pay and she was

:54:53.:54:55.

told she would have to wait for two weeks for employment support

:54:56.:55:02.

allowance. Heard tax credits had been stopped. When she came in to my

:55:03.:55:07.

office she had no food, no loney, and she had called Concentrhx that

:55:08.:55:12.

day 48 times and she had run out of credit on her phone. Rather than the

:55:13.:55:18.

state providing Lauren the safety net, Concentrix ( near desthtute.

:55:19.:55:23.

Why? What was the key factor in determining that Lawrence w`s one of

:55:24.:55:27.

the 1.5 million high risk p`yments? Someone had gone at your files and

:55:28.:55:30.

decided she could not be working 16 hours a week and be paid so little.

:55:31.:55:35.

They calculated her yearly hncome then divided it to come to the

:55:36.:55:38.

conclusion that you must have been working 15 hours a week. Ignoring

:55:39.:55:42.

the fact that Lauren had spdnt a month out of work the year before, a

:55:43.:55:48.

change in circumstances that you originally notified HMRC, a cursory

:55:49.:55:51.

glance was all it took to ttrn this young mother's life upside down and

:55:52.:55:55.

at a time when tumours that are most vulnerable. My staff and I have been

:55:56.:55:59.

deeply affected by the numbdr of cases in recent weeks where people

:56:00.:56:03.

have been plunged into utter misery and we felt sheer frustration at not

:56:04.:56:07.

being you to get a quick resolution. I doubt there is a single pdrson on

:56:08.:56:13.

the government benches who has ever experienced going without food. We

:56:14.:56:16.

can stand here all day and trade stories like Lauren's and Lde Camp

:56:17.:56:22.

after sales on the back for acting swiftly and decisively on the

:56:23.:56:26.

contract, but what cannot bd detracted from is the fact that

:56:27.:56:29.

families have been driven ftrther into debt and poverty by thd actions

:56:30.:56:33.

of Concentrix. Families havd been forced to beg for food by the

:56:34.:56:38.

actions of HMRC and forced to choose between heating and eating `t the

:56:39.:56:43.

policies of this government. It is time this government affects its

:56:44.:56:46.

role in this be our school `nd take some responsibility for the carnage

:56:47.:56:50.

it has caused. They must apologise for the hardship and sufferhng that

:56:51.:56:53.

people like Lauren have facdd and must look again at the ongohng

:56:54.:56:58.

policy of downsizing HMRC ldaving staph overworked and Tamara lies,

:56:59.:57:02.

they must introduce a freephone number of claimants and takd on the

:57:03.:57:06.

costs of seeking mandatory considerations. Earlier this month,

:57:07.:57:16.

leading figures of the government stood up at the Conservativd Party

:57:17.:57:20.

conference, in front of a b`ckground that said a country that works for

:57:21.:57:24.

everyone. Let's see them match the policy to that sentiment and that

:57:25.:57:32.

back from this destructive drive to impose austerity on the manx and

:57:33.:57:35.

which is for the few. The bdnch opposite to take out of -- take a

:57:36.:57:39.

leaf out of the Scottish Government cost MacBook and treat people with

:57:40.:57:48.

fairness, and respect. I thought it was very important to be able to

:57:49.:57:52.

speak on this debate on beh`lf of the many constituents that have

:57:53.:58:01.

contacted me. I wanted to bdgin by commending the front bench,

:58:02.:58:06.

particularly the spokesman for thick analysis of what the

:58:07.:58:11.

government could have got rhght in enforcing this contract and the

:58:12.:58:14.

problems that have led this did this place, and the member for Sheffield

:58:15.:58:18.

who has done so much work and driving this debate forward. I

:58:19.:58:22.

wanted to thank the staff in my office. We all have fantasthc

:58:23.:58:27.

constituency staff who do so much to assist constituents and I w`nted to

:58:28.:58:31.

thank my staff for the work they have done in dealing with

:58:32.:58:34.

distressing cases and indivhduals who have been finding themsdlves in

:58:35.:58:38.

deep hardship, deeply upset, often single mothers, and also groups like

:58:39.:58:46.

the citizens advice bureaus and other advice charities locally who

:58:47.:58:51.

have been faced with a deluge of these cases. I want to refldct on a

:58:52.:58:56.

few of them. A single mother, long-standing claim suspenddd

:58:57.:59:01.

because Concentrix said she was living with another named woman in

:59:02.:59:07.

her property, and a third pdrson. They were actually previous people

:59:08.:59:17.

who lived at home. Another one with a single mother and homeowndrs had

:59:18.:59:21.

her claim suspended because Concentrix said she was livhng with

:59:22.:59:25.

a couple. She is the sole owner of the property and provided evidence

:59:26.:59:28.

and eventually became was reinstated. Single mother h`d her

:59:29.:59:34.

award stopped pending an investigation. She was left with no

:59:35.:59:37.

income and we had to refer her to food banks. Her son is diabdtic

:59:38.:59:45.

required a specialist diet. All the stress and unhappiness causdd around

:59:46.:59:48.

that. Eventually, the claim was reinstated.

:59:49.:59:54.

Both of her tax credit clails. Sure she was told by Concentrix that have

:59:55.:00:01.

bothered who had one sense opposed to the property was in fact her

:00:02.:00:04.

partner. This case has not been resolved and she has no that money

:00:05.:00:07.

since August and there have been four other cases worst mattdrs are

:00:08.:00:12.

still not resolved. Constittents without money since August. A

:00:13.:00:15.

question some of the issues about the time it has taken to results on

:00:16.:00:20.

these matters. I have writtdn to the Minister by number decreases and we

:00:21.:00:23.

are contacting them and I hope we will give assurances that she shall

:00:24.:00:26.

pass tracks some of these c`ses which are distressing. I do give

:00:27.:00:32.

that assurance and I want to assure members with particularly

:00:33.:00:33.

long-running difficult cases they get in touch and they will lake sure

:00:34.:00:38.

the HMRC prioritise them. I thank her for another model provides

:00:39.:00:40.

reassurance and will certainly follow up with her office. There are

:00:41.:00:45.

some common themes to all of these cases. One is the impact

:00:46.:00:50.

particularly on single mothdrs, families actually with very complex

:00:51.:00:54.

needs with children often whth health issues certainly being left

:00:55.:00:59.

without food, money. Individuals who have mental health issues who have

:01:00.:01:01.

found the additional stress and anxiety to support them, people

:01:02.:01:06.

contacting me in desperation where any possible means of not rdalising

:01:07.:01:12.

that the MP was the place to go on Twitter, Facebook, e-mail, phone,

:01:13.:01:15.

absolute agony and desperathon at not getting through. In somd case

:01:16.:01:20.

having the experience image and earlier of having even put down on

:01:21.:01:23.

them which is obviously completely unacceptable and I am glad she

:01:24.:01:26.

recognises that as such. But there is an issue with the final response

:01:27.:01:30.

has been received, but thesd are not giving an explanation of whx the

:01:31.:01:35.

claims were stopped or reinstated, leaving some constituents unsure

:01:36.:01:37.

that will happen again and no apology. They appreciate wh`t the

:01:38.:01:40.

Minister said today but we need to be apologising directly to the

:01:41.:01:42.

individuals and families who have been affected. The long del`ys I

:01:43.:01:45.

have mentioned, the frustration and distress caused by the inabhlity to

:01:46.:01:50.

speak directly to people often contradictory and confusing

:01:51.:01:52.

correspondence. We have for example is that already but this is added to

:01:53.:01:57.

the pressure and concerned that these people have been experiencing.

:01:58.:02:01.

The fact we have ended up h`ving to reverse a constituents to food

:02:02.:02:05.

banks, that is a deeply distressing experience for anybody who has to go

:02:06.:02:09.

through it. And Nice people through the blood of their own have found

:02:10.:02:12.

themselves at the end of thdse erroneous investigations th`t is a

:02:13.:02:14.

terrible situation is back through no fault of their own. -- these

:02:15.:02:21.

people. This is simply becatse as the Minister indicated in an

:02:22.:02:25.

answer... Concentrix were following the processes, guidance and

:02:26.:02:30.

requirements of HMRC and thd worrying thing, if that doesn't

:02:31.:02:32.

change, it doesn't matter whether you change the contract frol

:02:33.:02:38.

Concentrix to HMRC, the samd thing will happen again. The honotrable

:02:39.:02:41.

gentleman makes an important point and that is why we need to

:02:42.:02:44.

investigation into what has gone wrong because this is not jtst the

:02:45.:02:49.

situation regarding Concentrix. If we look at situation regardhng

:02:50.:02:54.

capita, the contracts that have been at up to organisations like clear

:02:55.:02:56.

springs were asylum accommodation, we look at the example of otr

:02:57.:03:05.

source, this is the situations where they are not being properly

:03:06.:03:08.

monitored and followed up and the people who suffer in the end some of

:03:09.:03:14.

the most vulnerable, poorest and difficult situation constittents

:03:15.:03:17.

that we all find. This is the common thread running through all these

:03:18.:03:20.

things and the Government ndeds to have a wholesale look again at

:03:21.:03:23.

whether it should even be contacting these sorts of services out but also

:03:24.:03:28.

if it is, and is a legitimate reason for doing that, they have to be

:03:29.:03:31.

monitoring and following up after going on. Down to the level of that

:03:32.:03:34.

Israel is that individuals `re facing because that in the dnd is --

:03:35.:03:41.

level of experience. Often dxtremely complex lives and so many other

:03:42.:03:46.

pressures. I will briefly ghve way. He mentions the issues that were had

:03:47.:03:53.

and we have maximus, I have a case of someone waiting to be assessed

:03:54.:03:57.

for work capability for almost six months, so do not perceive that we

:03:58.:04:02.

will have a similar debate hn another half-year's time all over

:04:03.:04:06.

again? I would not be surprhsed if we were going to be having ` debate

:04:07.:04:10.

and by frustration and to protect the work we have done around the

:04:11.:04:13.

clear springs case is that people look at this and companies laking a

:04:14.:04:17.

huge profit, individuals making hundreds of thousands, millhons of

:04:18.:04:23.

pounds some cases please contact the abiding the most shoddy and

:04:24.:04:26.

inappropriate service, people suffer at the end of it and obviously they

:04:27.:04:30.

get away with does not possdss top of the wrist and often with payments

:04:31.:04:33.

at the end of it and in the end people look at this, partictlarly at

:04:34.:04:38.

HMRC and say you're being chased down with these relatively small

:04:39.:04:42.

amounts, completely erroneotsly he's fishing exhibitions and a meaty

:04:43.:04:46.

sweetheart deals being done with major corporations over nonpayment

:04:47.:04:52.

tax it is not tax credits, H have small business to continue with

:04:53.:04:55.

cutbacks cases around VAT for example, they save one rule for

:04:56.:04:59.

those at the top and another one of them often putting them into severe

:05:00.:05:03.

hardship and deep publications when they try and resolve these cases

:05:04.:05:06.

often when they arrive at otr borders as members of Parli`ment

:05:07.:05:09.

already got themselves into severe financial difficulties with us as an

:05:10.:05:12.

individual or business. In concluding, I want to be absolutely

:05:13.:05:18.

assured that the Minister is not just going to see the full

:05:19.:05:21.

investigation forward into this case and to resolve the issues that the

:05:22.:05:24.

individuals in my constituency and others that have been mentioned

:05:25.:05:28.

today, but that she will go back in government to raise this wider issue

:05:29.:05:31.

of the contracting out of the services and the wider issud of

:05:32.:05:33.

monitoring of these sorts of services because in the end it is

:05:34.:05:37.

the people of this country that suffered and it is not acceptable.

:05:38.:05:40.

It has been an absolute disgrace and it has to stop. Thank you. For

:05:41.:05:50.

inviting me to speak in this very important debate. In common with

:05:51.:05:54.

other honourable members I have been appalled by the complaints that my

:05:55.:05:58.

office has received with regards to Concentrix. Runway constitudnts

:05:59.:06:03.

basted extreme hardship following the action that has been taken. I

:06:04.:06:08.

understand the provider want to conduct checks that money is being

:06:09.:06:12.

bribed to the right people. However to stop money to parents, -,

:06:13.:06:16.

provided. When checks are bding carried out, and the money hs being

:06:17.:06:22.

stopped it is unacceptable. The reaction taken by Concentrix has

:06:23.:06:26.

caused extreme hardship to lany of my constituents and people `cross

:06:27.:06:32.

the country. People use this income invariably to provide food `nd

:06:33.:06:35.

essential to the children and without this money for a period of

:06:36.:06:40.

time is totally unacceptabld, and as absurd it has resulted in m`ny

:06:41.:06:43.

families relying on food banks. This certainly been the case. In some

:06:44.:06:49.

cases people have been going without. This is utterly sh`meful.

:06:50.:06:54.

It is not as if Concentrix have been quick about some of their checks. In

:06:55.:06:59.

the majority of cases it sedms as if people have had money withhdld for

:07:00.:07:04.

two months or longer. How c`n people who are already in many casds on low

:07:05.:07:08.

income the expected to cope for long periods of time? Of the manx cases

:07:09.:07:14.

my office staff have dealt with one such case relates to one of my

:07:15.:07:18.

constituents who had their tax credit stopped because it w`s

:07:19.:07:21.

believed she had an undeclared partner in common with other stories

:07:22.:07:26.

we have heard this afternoon. Following much stress by constituent

:07:27.:07:29.

had to provide extensive evhdence that she did not in fact have an

:07:30.:07:33.

undeclared partner. It transpired the basis of the action by

:07:34.:07:37.

Concentrix was an out of date record of a previous tenant at that

:07:38.:07:42.

address. Another similar case was wary constituent had her tax credits

:07:43.:07:46.

stopped due to Concentrix rdquiring evidence that the tenant lived alone

:07:47.:07:50.

as a random check on the eldctoral register had shown a previots

:07:51.:07:53.

tenant. In that case it transpired that the previous tenant was now in

:07:54.:07:58.

prison. And yet another casd where a constituents looked Concentrix to

:07:59.:08:01.

confirm and provide evidencd that use a single parent and it still

:08:02.:08:05.

took two months to investig`te and reinstate claim. There are ` good

:08:06.:08:09.

many more cases that I could highlight but I accept that there

:08:10.:08:12.

are many members wishing to contribute to today's debatd and

:08:13.:08:15.

many of these cases are comlon in nature. The common factor in my

:08:16.:08:23.

opinion is the lack of understanding or compassion on the part of the

:08:24.:08:26.

contractor engaged by HMRC to undertake this role. We know that of

:08:27.:08:31.

the many came in supper stopped and those who have appealed so far are

:08:32.:08:35.

90-95% had been successful hn overturning that decision. But

:08:36.:08:40.

Concentrix has to bear their share of the responsibility for the

:08:41.:08:44.

hardship faced by many people in recent months, HMRC also had to bear

:08:45.:08:49.

their share for allowing thd situation to get into the mdss that

:08:50.:08:52.

we have seen. But I ask the minister today whether she excess results

:08:53.:08:58.

will deepen the luck of scrttiny and what lessons HMRC are learnhng of

:08:59.:09:05.

this tobacco. Concentrix's failure is -- tobacco. It is late f`ilures

:09:06.:09:08.

of the Government because it certainly appears that in this whole

:09:09.:09:12.

episode has been a deliberate attempt to that single parents.

:09:13.:09:16.

Again, if HMRC were muttering the contract, this may well havd not

:09:17.:09:24.

exhilarated that we have sedn. - accelerated the situation that we

:09:25.:09:30.

have seen. Lessons must be learned. It has caused hardship and

:09:31.:09:36.

Concentrix have been lacking in compassion and as the Chief

:09:37.:09:38.

Secretary to the Treasury ottlined has been real suffering in lany of

:09:39.:09:45.

cases. People in Merthyr Tydfil and across the country deserve `nswers

:09:46.:09:48.

and they look forward to another is being given and I do thank the

:09:49.:10:01.

Minister for supporting the motion. Thank you. Like other members I want

:10:02.:10:05.

to pay tribute to the honourable member for Salford and Ecclds for

:10:06.:10:10.

introducing this debate and setting out a number of points so cogently

:10:11.:10:13.

particularly in relation to some details of the contract himself and

:10:14.:10:17.

the responsibilities that the contract Dave to HMRC themsdlves.

:10:18.:10:24.

That gave. To better deal whth these problems which HMRC and the previous

:10:25.:10:31.

minister had to be aware of given the number of representations and

:10:32.:10:35.

complaints after coming through and the range of questions are being

:10:36.:10:39.

asked as well. None of which were properly absorbed and were treated

:10:40.:10:44.

fairly decisively along the lines of young Mr Gross that they ard all

:10:45.:10:47.

doing very well, there seem to be no problem whatsoever as far as the

:10:48.:10:52.

previous list was concerned, I'm glad the Minister is indicating she

:10:53.:10:56.

is going to take more of a personal interest in how these details are

:10:57.:11:01.

handled in future. I think the motion could have actually been

:11:02.:11:07.

wider. I think it could havd taken into its sites HMRC itself `nd their

:11:08.:11:11.

role and Russia in this whole debacle and also the -- this has

:11:12.:11:18.

happened in a context where we have had the progress of run down in the

:11:19.:11:22.

capacity and character of HLRC but then leaves them the excuse of them

:11:23.:11:27.

outsourcing bits of work but that is the character of that work `nd

:11:28.:11:31.

outsourcing that really raises questions about the mentality in

:11:32.:11:37.

HMRC. The Minister has confhrmed to me in a written answer yestdrday

:11:38.:11:42.

that during the course of the contract HMRC delegated a total

:11:43.:11:50.

caseload of 2,002,009 500 c`ses for high-risk renewal checks by

:11:51.:11:54.

Concentrix so it was HMRC ddcided that over 2 million cases could be

:11:55.:11:58.

appraised as being at high risk renewals. When it came to Concentrix

:11:59.:12:10.

receiving bills, -- receiving bills. 1.3 million cases were not the

:12:11.:12:12.

subject of further investig`tion for fraud or error by Concentrix so that

:12:13.:12:18.

means Concentrix themselves screened at 74% of the caseload that had been

:12:19.:12:23.

identified by HMRC. Just thhnk with what we would be dealing with death

:12:24.:12:27.

hadn't been the screening ott. The multiple versions of the problems

:12:28.:12:32.

both of the adversity enjoydd by our constituents and the absurdhty

:12:33.:12:36.

entailed in the grooviest conjecture that has been used against people.

:12:37.:12:39.

Of those total number of high-risk renewal claims referred to

:12:40.:12:44.

Concentrix there were three main risk categories and these words

:12:45.:12:50.

designed by HMRC, not by Concentrix, undeclared partner and that

:12:51.:12:57.

accounted for 1,398,000, working hours and that accounted for five

:12:58.:13:05.

and childcare which amounted to 245000 and 609 cases identified by

:13:06.:13:09.

HMRC. I hope that ministers will address now that this work hs

:13:10.:13:14.

returning to HMRC that therd is some change of culture in HMRC that no

:13:15.:13:17.

longer brings a degree of hostility and suspicion to their customers.

:13:18.:13:25.

Would he accept that the incentive that Concentrix had, that the only

:13:26.:13:35.

got paid for the cases wherd it could be sure that there was genuine

:13:36.:13:39.

error for fraud, that at th`t incentive does not rest with the

:13:40.:13:44.

HMRC, then the situation cotld be worse now that HMRC are dealing with

:13:45.:13:48.

cases because they don't have any incentive to screen out any of

:13:49.:13:53.

these. He does raise a point that we need to ask about future

:13:54.:13:57.

performance. Many of us havd had a room difficulties in dealing with

:13:58.:14:03.

HMRC in dealing with tax crddits, and in my constituency cross-border

:14:04.:14:09.

workers whose position is constantly mishandled by HMRC. On the puestion

:14:10.:14:19.

raised about the payment by results issue, I do know that the p`yment by

:14:20.:14:25.

results is the outcomes aftdr the mandatory reconsideration stage so

:14:26.:14:29.

some of the arguments about the degree of incentivise Asian I think

:14:30.:14:34.

need to be measured against that point. What drove the cut-off of tax

:14:35.:14:42.

credits for most people was the application of the compliance

:14:43.:14:46.

requirements around 30 days, so people receive these letters using

:14:47.:14:51.

the HMRC system, using the HMRC contract of standards to Concentrix

:14:52.:14:55.

and they received letters s`ying unless you return information within

:14:56.:15:00.

30 days your benefit will bd stopped. That is most of those stops

:15:01.:15:05.

or because information supposedly wasn't received after 30 daxs and

:15:06.:15:09.

that is why so many cases wdre overturned because at that stage the

:15:10.:15:12.

information had been providdd. That raises questions for this House

:15:13.:15:19.

because Word does the 30 dax rule coming? The 30 day rule comds in

:15:20.:15:24.

back in the 2002 tax credit act and what we have here by HMRC is a gross

:15:25.:15:31.

misapplication of the terms of the 2002 tax credit act in terms of the

:15:32.:15:36.

high risk renewal regime, in terms of the high risk change of

:15:37.:15:41.

circumstances regime, and also in terms of annual declaration because

:15:42.:15:43.

what the Minister didn't address today is that there were thousands

:15:44.:15:48.

of people who had the tax credits stop by HMRC directly, nothhng to do

:15:49.:15:53.

with Concentrix, because HMRC were terminating people because they have

:15:54.:15:57.

not returned the annual declaration on time. Compliance grant are being

:15:58.:16:02.

used by HMRC directly against people themselves. Windows 40 5,000 people

:16:03.:16:07.

were cut off in the first wdek of August, people naturally assumed the

:16:08.:16:12.

back-up. Was by Concentrix, they were ringing Concentrix, we were

:16:13.:16:17.

running Concentrix, but it was HMRC the cut them off. You have that that

:16:18.:16:25.

anomaly of the HMRC handing work to Concentrix, meanwhile HMRC

:16:26.:16:28.

themselves decided to go ag`inst those same people on compli`nce

:16:29.:16:33.

crowns. No wonder confusion and hardship and hurt was caused. There

:16:34.:16:39.

are fundamental questions hdre for HMRC as well. I hope the Minister

:16:40.:16:50.

will look again. We hope th`t those lessons will be learned within HMRC

:16:51.:16:54.

itself and it will include looking at whether or not there has been

:16:55.:16:59.

particular mischievous the number of sections of the 2002 act. That 002

:17:00.:17:09.

act, regulation 32, states that the period of notice given for ` person

:17:10.:17:13.

to submit information or evhdence shall not be less than 30 d`ys after

:17:14.:17:18.

the date of notice, so it doesn t have to be 30 days. That is the

:17:19.:17:22.

minimum it could be. Who decided it was going to be 30 days? HMRC

:17:23.:17:27.

decided it was going to be 30 days and they pass that on to Concentrix

:17:28.:17:31.

and told Concentrix that th`t statute, that is how it works, that

:17:32.:17:37.

is so you have to do it. Thdre are questions for ministers. Thd they

:17:38.:17:44.

days? When ministers notifidd that those with the terms on which

:17:45.:17:50.

Concentrix was operating? Whlled that 30 day cut be reviewed? Some of

:17:51.:18:00.

these flaws are sourced in the legislation itself and the over

:18:01.:18:03.

rigorous application of those by HMRC. It is important to recognise

:18:04.:18:09.

many people have voiced of Concentrix and the performance. Let

:18:10.:18:17.

us remember, in this debate we need to get through the HMRC where the

:18:18.:18:22.

core of responsibility lies, there needs to be a culture changd there

:18:23.:18:25.

and I welcome the fact that the Minister has given a commitlent to

:18:26.:18:32.

keep an eye on this in the future. I have spoken a number of timds in

:18:33.:18:36.

Parliament on this issue and every time I speak I am listening to the

:18:37.:18:41.

many stories across this ch`mber and elsewhere about the individtal cases

:18:42.:18:46.

and it is no different in mx home constituency of Dundee about how the

:18:47.:18:50.

individuals have been affected by Concentrix, who are contracted by

:18:51.:18:52.

HMRC on behalf of this Tory government. HMRC's contract with

:18:53.:19:00.

Concentrix is driving familhes into image of poverty. Let me offer you a

:19:01.:19:10.

couple of examples. One of ly constituents had only part of her

:19:11.:19:13.

address held on the Concentrix system. And background checks were

:19:14.:19:16.

run on the address there were a number of people named at the same

:19:17.:19:21.

property. Duty and needless investigation by Concentrix, this

:19:22.:19:24.

person struggled to feed and put her children for over a month. @nother

:19:25.:19:29.

loan parents was judged to have made a false claim as a single p`rent. It

:19:30.:19:35.

was discovered that an incorrect address instigated this

:19:36.:19:38.

investigation and HMRC over this person a considerable amount of

:19:39.:19:42.

money. This was not discovered before of the constituent h`d to

:19:43.:19:46.

give up her home due to fin`ncial hardship. I wonder if he wotld agree

:19:47.:19:57.

with me that another aspect of the shambles is that at times and the

:19:58.:20:02.

complete breakdown between Concentrix and HMRC, as exelplified

:20:03.:20:07.

by my constituent, mother of who supplied Concentrix with evdry

:20:08.:20:11.

single piece of information they asked for only to find that

:20:12.:20:13.

subsequently that they had not passed on to HMRC and her t`x credit

:20:14.:20:19.

application was cancelled, leaving her in a position of having to see

:20:20.:20:24.

crisis loans and go to the banks to get children fed for the rest of the

:20:25.:20:28.

week. Would you agree with le that that situation is unacceptable and

:20:29.:20:33.

those people are owed an apology by this government? I completely agree.

:20:34.:20:39.

It further makes the point H was about to raise which is makd the

:20:40.:20:44.

mistake that many of these people are single parents who are `lready

:20:45.:20:47.

struggling to make ends meet and are the target of this government.

:20:48.:20:55.

Evidence has emerged that a million letters have been sent out `sking

:20:56.:20:59.

for information about the circumstances in what could only be

:21:00.:21:03.

described as a fishing expedition to detect potentially a regular tax

:21:04.:21:07.

returns. It is up to the constituent to prove that the incident before

:21:08.:21:12.

tax credits reinstated. In other words, they are treated as guilty

:21:13.:21:16.

until proven innocent. It does not end there. Staff at Concentrix are

:21:17.:21:23.

regularly dealing with suichde callers who threatened to khll

:21:24.:21:27.

themselves. How desperate is it have to get before urgent action is taken

:21:28.:21:31.

and this contract is ended immediately? The social and health

:21:32.:21:37.

impacts on members of the ptblic and employees of Concentrix are

:21:38.:21:40.

horrific. These issues have been reinforced in a recent report on the

:21:41.:21:44.

Select Committee which find evidence of humiliation of payments `nd

:21:45.:21:48.

appalling customer service `nd success rates of appeal of somewhere

:21:49.:21:55.

up to 95%, described as a tdrrible indictment of the original

:21:56.:21:58.

decision-making process. Unsurprisingly, this is not the

:21:59.:22:01.

first time government outsotrcing has failed to meet expectathons

:22:02.:22:08.

These payment by results contracts got back to 2003 when Labour

:22:09.:22:16.

installed it with English NHS. Aptos, whose shambolic and cruel

:22:17.:22:19.

tests were designed to strip benefits from sick and disabled

:22:20.:22:26.

people. Concentrix is played on a payment by results basis, in short,

:22:27.:22:31.

commission. The more tax paxments concentric Concentrix puts ` stop

:22:32.:22:43.

to, the more they get paid. The high different decisions made by this

:22:44.:22:47.

government would be if the lember sitting opposite reported on

:22:48.:22:52.

payments by results contracts. Would you believe it, this governlent is

:22:53.:22:57.

continuing to cup HMRC jobs in Dundee and right across Scotland was

:22:58.:23:02.

at the same time privatising and outsourcing contracts. HMRC

:23:03.:23:05.

departments which are already under staff have been left to pick up the

:23:06.:23:09.

pieces and spent months restoring backlogs of claims and mist`kes It

:23:10.:23:13.

is going to end this madness now. Well Concentrix has questions to

:23:14.:23:19.

answer, I believe that the disastrous implementation of the

:23:20.:23:22.

contract by the Tory governlent has implications that go far bexond the

:23:23.:23:26.

specific company. This government has created a system designdd to

:23:27.:23:30.

place the burden of the failing posterity agenda firmly on the

:23:31.:23:34.

shoulders of those most disadvantaged in our societx. The

:23:35.:23:38.

contract with Concentrix has not been renewed which is a step in the

:23:39.:23:42.

right direction and it looks like it will be brought to a shorter close,

:23:43.:23:47.

high ever government needs to go further. Alongside the ongohng

:23:48.:23:53.

investigation, and enquiry has been initiated by the National Atdit

:23:54.:23:56.

Office. I welcome these developments, albeit at a thme when

:23:57.:24:00.

too many of my constituents have already suffered. I urge thhs

:24:01.:24:04.

government to set up a publhc enquiry to examine conditions under

:24:05.:24:07.

which government departments give contracts to public sector ,-

:24:08.:24:10.

private sector suppliers. How to devise contracts enstre value

:24:11.:24:25.

for money and efficiency without allowing companies to profit by

:24:26.:24:28.

minute relating results and ignore the well-being of people in our

:24:29.:24:33.

society. A clear statement of ethical principles to emphasise

:24:34.:24:38.

justice for individual citizens in Parliamentary accountabilitx and

:24:39.:24:42.

representation of consumer `nd service user groups and

:24:43.:24:46.

decision-making at all stagds of formulating, awarding and monitoring

:24:47.:24:51.

contracts. In the end, everxone in this House must remember we are

:24:52.:24:55.

privileged to be here and sdrve the public and I would urge this

:24:56.:24:58.

government to go right back and re-examine all of its contr`cts with

:24:59.:25:03.

private companies and ensurd that dignity and respect are at the heart

:25:04.:25:07.

of procurement, rather than profit and price. I want to just sdt out

:25:08.:25:18.

the experience of some of mx constituents in respect of

:25:19.:25:22.

Concentrix and what has been happening with the tax credhts. It

:25:23.:25:26.

is a familiar story having listened to colleagues from around the house

:25:27.:25:32.

and around the UK. Normally, might constituents have been waithng

:25:33.:25:35.

between five and seven weeks before they come along and see need to get

:25:36.:25:39.

the problem sorted. We can then get it sorted, although I do sthll have

:25:40.:25:45.

eight Concentrix cases which have not yet been resolved, so when the

:25:46.:25:49.

Minister said that she was resolving them all very quickly that hs not

:25:50.:25:54.

the case, many of these havd been four or five weeks since we took

:25:55.:25:58.

them up and they have not ydt been resolved so there are outst`nding

:25:59.:26:02.

cases. We saw a rapid incre`se in cases from August onwards. Before

:26:03.:26:06.

that we had a drip, drip, drip of cases that would go wrong, but from

:26:07.:26:12.

August something happened, dither at HMRC or at Concentrix. It would be

:26:13.:26:19.

interesting to know what it was and who initiated it, because stddenly

:26:20.:26:24.

there was an influx of cases all wrongly decided, all coming in in a

:26:25.:26:29.

rush. This contract has been running since 2014, so what happened August?

:26:30.:26:34.

We would like to press the Linister in answering to tell us what it was

:26:35.:26:39.

that caused that sudden increase and spike in cases? All of my

:26:40.:26:44.

constituents who have come to see me are single mums with childrdn,

:26:45.:26:48.

mainly accused of having an undisclosed partner. Some of them

:26:49.:26:52.

told they did not have childcare costs that they had claimed,

:26:53.:26:55.

occasionally they had been told that they don't have children whdn they

:26:56.:27:01.

do. Most have simply had monies stopped without receiving any prior

:27:02.:27:05.

notification. They find out that there was an issue because there was

:27:06.:27:10.

no money in the bank, then when they tried to get through on the

:27:11.:27:13.

telephone they could not get through and then they received a letter that

:27:14.:27:18.

said you have an undisclosed partner. It did not say who that

:27:19.:27:23.

undisclosed partner was supposed to be. It did say, prove that xou don't

:27:24.:27:27.

have an undisclosed partner, send this evidence to show that xou

:27:28.:27:31.

don't. However, if you don't know who the undisclosed partner is

:27:32.:27:35.

supposed to be high you supposed do that? Worse, when my constituents

:27:36.:27:42.

have discovered who that undisclosed partner is meant to be, it hs a

:27:43.:27:46.

previous tenant of the home who they have never met to left years ago, or

:27:47.:27:51.

it is a family member who they would never even think there might be an

:27:52.:27:54.

issue that they were supposdd to be an undisclosed partner becatse they

:27:55.:28:00.

were related. What bad information is being used to make the lhves of

:28:01.:28:04.

these people and Missouri? H have said it is bad once and I whll say

:28:05.:28:10.

it again. At the 80% of the cases sent to Concentrix were tying down

:28:11.:28:14.

-- were turned down by Concdntrix because it was decided therd wasn't

:28:15.:28:18.

an issue, what kind of information were they looking out on thd 80 bid

:28:19.:28:22.

turned down if this is the kind of information that they deciddd to act

:28:23.:28:27.

upon? It beggars belief. In all of these cases my constituents were

:28:28.:28:30.

told to prove that they did not have a partner but the name was given. In

:28:31.:28:34.

all of the cases that have been resolved so far, the determhnation

:28:35.:28:40.

has been was -- has been reversed. It seems to me that this is a

:28:41.:28:44.

complete reversal of the nedds burden of proof. You prove that you

:28:45.:28:48.

don't have an undisclosed p`rtner. This is what people are being told

:28:49.:29:01.

and it is not fair on those people. They are already financiallx in

:29:02.:29:07.

difficulty. That is why thex are able to get tax credits. Ustally

:29:08.:29:12.

living at financial margins, part-time low paid work. I have

:29:13.:29:16.

constituents who have had to give up their childcare have had to take

:29:17.:29:20.

their children out of childcare and are in danger of losing thehr job

:29:21.:29:24.

because they have been told they don't have children, they do have.

:29:25.:29:28.

It seems to me the length of time it's taking to resolve thesd issues

:29:29.:29:35.

been far too great. The worry and stress is particularly diffhcult

:29:36.:29:38.

when dealing with an unreachable and harsh bureaucracy and that lakes

:29:39.:29:44.

this experience for them particularly Kafkaesque. Thdre are

:29:45.:29:47.

secondary impacts including getting into severe debt, rent arre`rs,

:29:48.:29:53.

threats of eviction, the impact of which persists beyond putting these

:29:54.:29:59.

claims right. For example b`nk charges, damaged credit histories,

:30:00.:30:03.

massive mobile phone bills. It is all very well seeing these cases

:30:04.:30:08.

have been put right but what about those ongoing impacts? But canny

:30:09.:30:11.

minister said to us about what is going to be done to put those right?

:30:12.:30:16.

I do think there cases wherd people ought to have compensation. It is

:30:17.:30:21.

distressing enough having this done without having ongoing financial

:30:22.:30:25.

problems resulting. What about the control of the data that HMRC is

:30:26.:30:28.

passing on work is in futurd going to be looking at itself to do with

:30:29.:30:34.

these cases? Why is it so poor? How can it be possible for prevhous

:30:35.:30:40.

tenants for people who live any more to be suggested as undisclosed

:30:41.:30:45.

partners? What kind of qualhty control is that on this dat`?

:30:46.:30:49.

Obviously it is not working. I think it is wrong for the Governmdnt to

:30:50.:30:54.

incentivise maladministration in its contracts that and is in effect what

:30:55.:30:58.

has happened here. I think that my constituency have suffered these

:30:59.:31:03.

cases have been subjected to maladministration. I will bd

:31:04.:31:06.

suggesting to them that thex make a claim to the Parliamentary Ombudsman

:31:07.:31:12.

of the public compensated. The Government could stop this happening

:31:13.:31:17.

by compensating them ahead of making any such claims. The worst of it,

:31:18.:31:22.

and they agree with right honourable friend the members are structured

:31:23.:31:25.

nervous on about this, this has been specifically targeted at a

:31:26.:31:32.

population largely of financially vulnerable single mums who `re

:31:33.:31:34.

trying to do the right thing by going to work and who are

:31:35.:31:39.

excessively impacted upon bx this kind of behaviour by bureaucracies

:31:40.:31:48.

which they cannot even begin to get to. I think it is incumbent upon the

:31:49.:31:52.

Government now to make sure they compensate and apologise to those

:31:53.:31:56.

people and to make sure that the information they use in futtre it is

:31:57.:32:03.

not so poor. We are extremely hopeful that this sorry state of

:32:04.:32:07.

affairs marks the beginning of the end of payment by results in our

:32:08.:32:12.

welfare system. It has no place there, it creates perverse outcomes

:32:13.:32:16.

and it has ruined the lives of thousands of people. Our Social

:32:17.:32:19.

Security system should be there to support people in their timd of

:32:20.:32:22.

need. It should not be therd for unaccountable conglomerates to make

:32:23.:32:27.

easy money chasing the voicdless and the vulnerable. Now is the time to

:32:28.:32:31.

draw a line under the grotesque profit model that has existdd in our

:32:32.:32:39.

welfare system because this model has failed. It is the old

:32:40.:32:42.

individuals it was set up to help and failed employees and thd

:32:43.:32:46.

taxpayer. All of us have horrific stories of individuals who have

:32:47.:32:50.

fallen foul of Concentrix. Hn my own constituent's caterer tax credits

:32:51.:32:53.

were cancelled when she was in a coma. Rather than answering for the

:32:54.:32:59.

failures which they squarelx at the Government's doors in this hnstance,

:33:00.:33:01.

ministers have preferred to throw this hapless contractor unddr the

:33:02.:33:06.

bus. But as one senior Concdntrix employee wrote to me, every single

:33:07.:33:12.

action we took was directly informed by HMRC and was compliant in full

:33:13.:33:16.

with their guidance. The employee went on, there will be no

:33:17.:33:19.

investigation because there are paper trails after paper tr`ils

:33:20.:33:22.

showing that we have only ever followed client instructions on

:33:23.:33:26.

amending claims. I am pleasdd to hear today that that is not now the

:33:27.:33:35.

case, that there will be an investigation, because from site

:33:36.:33:37.

finish this has been a mess entirely of the Government's own makhng and

:33:38.:33:39.

one that they have not yet `nswered four. The company which conducted

:33:40.:33:44.

the trial which preceded Concentrix transacted, incorrectly movdd entire

:33:45.:33:49.

awards regardless of evidence being provided to the contrary and despite

:33:50.:33:52.

the alarm bells should have been ringing loud and clear in mhnisters'

:33:53.:33:56.

years they decided to push on. It was the beginning of a pattdrn which

:33:57.:34:00.

is now all too familiar. Ministers have still not answered for

:34:01.:34:05.

structuring a contract which pushed maximising revenue at its hdart in

:34:06.:34:09.

attempting to success error and fraud, but accuracy, not medting

:34:10.:34:13.

quality service standards, certainly not customer service, but m`king as

:34:14.:34:17.

much money as possible off the backs of the vulnerable. Or ministers have

:34:18.:34:23.

not answered for the measurds they included in the contract to maximise

:34:24.:34:28.

revenue. HMRC profiled, and those are the Government's words, the

:34:29.:34:33.

profiled vulnerable individtals 1.4 million of them and then unleashed

:34:34.:34:37.

Concentrix to carry out thehr dirty work. We do not know becausd the

:34:38.:34:41.

Government will not tell me despite repeated requests, what indhcators

:34:42.:34:44.

they used to establish which groups to target. But given what wd have

:34:45.:34:50.

heard today I think it is vdry clear who the demographic word, shngle

:34:51.:34:54.

mothers with children. It is some measure of justice that it hs women

:34:55.:34:58.

like that, thousands of thel across the country who brought this

:34:59.:35:02.

contract crashing down with our articulate a brilliant camp`ign But

:35:03.:35:06.

this is not the only issue with this contract, because the process also

:35:07.:35:11.

turned the burden of proof on its head. HMRC were asking tax credit

:35:12.:35:15.

payments to prove that their claim had been made in error. Thex were

:35:16.:35:19.

asking people to prove a negative as my honourable friend the melber for

:35:20.:35:23.

Garston and Harewood has so eloquently put. The tax credits act

:35:24.:35:28.

clearly states that HMRC can amend or terminate tax credits ard words

:35:29.:35:31.

only if they have significant ground for believing it is erroneots. It

:35:32.:35:42.

does not allow them to shift the burden of proof on to the claimant

:35:43.:35:45.

's to disprove that a tax credit award has been made erroneotsly

:35:46.:35:47.

This led one young mother to say to me in tears that she felt she was

:35:48.:35:50.

being treated like a crimin`l and that Concentrix were treating her

:35:51.:35:53.

ilk the until proven innocent. One mistake like that would havd been

:35:54.:35:57.

unacceptable, 11,000 people last year had to apply for mandatory

:35:58.:36:03.

reconsideration alone, that cannot be passed off as a mistake. It was

:36:04.:36:07.

the deliberate design of thd contract itself. HMRC emploxed a

:36:08.:36:12.

contract with just 500 staff to target over 2 million peopld. This

:36:13.:36:17.

meant the company's pressurdd, poorly trained and poorly trained

:36:18.:36:26.

staff work pressured to havd so many sensitive cases, leaving thd phone

:36:27.:36:30.

lines permanently engaged. Concentrix start to think that the

:36:31.:36:33.

call volumes were such that they would have had to triple thd number

:36:34.:36:37.

of stop and then astonishingly despite the failure of the trial and

:36:38.:36:41.

the highly sensitive nature of the contract and the sheer volule of

:36:42.:36:46.

individuals they have designated, a completely untested private sector

:36:47.:36:51.

provider to pursue, we now know the Government did not actually monitor

:36:52.:36:54.

the performance for the first year of the contract. HMRC had no idea

:36:55.:37:01.

how many performance failurds this contract was tiring but oncd they

:37:02.:37:04.

started motoring they soon found out. Over breaches in the space of

:37:05.:37:10.

just nine months, 13 Black performance failures. Ironically

:37:11.:37:16.

HMRC is up award this year for analysis and use of evidencd. I hope

:37:17.:37:19.

this is not viewed as best practice across Whitehall. Does she share my

:37:20.:37:25.

concern that the chaos she hs outlining will actually end up

:37:26.:37:29.

costing the taxpayer but more than any kind of made it would s`ve in

:37:30.:37:33.

the first place? I think th`t is a major concern, not least because

:37:34.:37:35.

HMRC have gone to allocate several HMRC have gone to allocate several

:37:36.:37:38.

more staff to deal with the backlog that Concentrix has caused because

:37:39.:37:42.

this was a failure on a montmental scale from start to finish. It seems

:37:43.:37:46.

that ministers did not pay the blindest bit of notice until this

:37:47.:37:50.

scandal reach the media bec`use HMRC we now know were about to rdnew the

:37:51.:37:57.

contract before the scandal hit The Government have traded on wdlfare as

:37:58.:38:02.

a dirty word and now they are seeing the despicable consequences of their

:38:03.:38:06.

political attacks. Single p`rents and families who have done nothing

:38:07.:38:12.

wrong being ruthlessly pursted by an unaccountable US firm for profit.

:38:13.:38:16.

Could this contract have bedn drawn up at the Government not fudlled a

:38:17.:38:20.

contemptible narrative about those on low paid and about those who rely

:38:21.:38:26.

on tax credits to get by? Wd welcome that the NAO will be investhgating

:38:27.:38:30.

the drawing up of this contract Can we also be assured that it will

:38:31.:38:33.

include the management of the contract, the profiling asstmptions

:38:34.:38:39.

that underpin it, will be rdleased any impact assessment which must

:38:40.:38:43.

have the company did? Will the Minister assure us that any

:38:44.:38:47.

compensation awarded will not be counted towards tax credit `wards

:38:48.:38:58.

was back that chakra? Will she agreed that the NAO Works to

:38:59.:39:00.

Parliament and not the Government and therefore the NAO would not

:39:01.:39:06.

actually be a minister and we need someone independent who would get to

:39:07.:39:10.

the number of this present dvidence to Parliament, not necessarhly the

:39:11.:39:14.

Government? I completely agree. As we have heard across the debate

:39:15.:39:20.

today these profits RS and ht is coordinating government itsdlf so we

:39:21.:39:22.

need the independent review but we need to know the situation will be

:39:23.:39:25.

published and of the NAO don't recall the ministers to post

:39:26.:39:30.

one-sided. But above all else, if this government 's director`te -

:39:31.:39:35.

rhetoric is worth a penny it will surely pledge to call time on

:39:36.:39:38.

contracts like this which t`rget innocent single parents and families

:39:39.:39:42.

and encourage the private sdctor to profit from it, that has no place in

:39:43.:39:52.

our welfare system. Like many members on my both sides of the

:39:53.:40:03.

House I have been inundated by constituents since the opposition

:40:04.:40:06.

opposed the disgrace of what Concentrix have been doing, in

:40:07.:40:12.

particular member who has spoken. One of the from me is the innocent

:40:13.:40:20.

single mothers, often this seems to be a deliberate attack spechfically

:40:21.:40:23.

on woman and that is completely unacceptable. On particular case

:40:24.:40:26.

that was brought to my attention in my constituency was a singld mother

:40:27.:40:31.

living in a property of four flats. She was told on three separ`te

:40:32.:40:35.

occasions that she was living with each of the other tenants. She was

:40:36.:40:38.

then told she was living with another tenant in the next block of

:40:39.:40:45.

the other four flats. Unsurprisingly my constituent found it rather

:40:46.:40:47.

difficult to actually prove that she wasn't living with these people

:40:48.:40:50.

particularly when she didn't know who the other people were lhving in

:40:51.:40:54.

the other flats, which is not uncommon when you are living in

:40:55.:40:57.

support of housing and you `re actually focusing on bringing up

:40:58.:41:00.

your children which is what you would think the whole point of it is

:41:01.:41:04.

about in allowing these wom`n to work. The key thing is that all of

:41:05.:41:12.

us who have been helping constituents impacted by thhs

:41:13.:41:16.

tragedy have no idea how many others in our communities have been

:41:17.:41:18.

affected who have not reachdd out to us as members of Parliament. It is

:41:19.:41:22.

important to recognise that in contrast to the Government lay be

:41:23.:41:25.

people in receipt of tax crddits the vast majority are hard-workhng and

:41:26.:41:30.

proud with many affected by Concentrix will have sufferdd in

:41:31.:41:34.

silence. Ultimately there are two macro forces to blame for this

:41:35.:41:36.

gamble, Concentrix and the Government. The actions of

:41:37.:41:42.

Concentrix can only be labelled as atrocious yet last month whdn they

:41:43.:41:45.

learned they would no longer have the contract renewed the response

:41:46.:41:49.

from them was that it coverdd a significant shock. We can only

:41:50.:41:52.

conclude therefore that it hs because of this they saw little

:41:53.:41:56.

wrong with what they were doing The Government however are ultilately to

:41:57.:42:02.

blame. This should have helped Concentrix to account but wd should

:42:03.:42:05.

recognise the true fault lids with the Government. Concentrix `cted in

:42:06.:42:11.

a way that because of the Government contract is based on payments by

:42:12.:42:13.

results model will stop the Government agreed to deal whth

:42:14.:42:17.

Concentrix that they would pay more and more depending and home much tax

:42:18.:42:21.

credits were removed and so it is no wonder they have acted so

:42:22.:42:26.

inappropriately. If the isstes surrounding Concentrix was hsolated,

:42:27.:42:29.

the Government may have been unable to claim that it was an hondst

:42:30.:42:33.

mistake. The reality is that the horror stories that we are hearing

:42:34.:42:36.

today are indicative of this government along with the bddroom

:42:37.:42:40.

tax, ruthless benefit sancthons and handfuls of other policies, the

:42:41.:42:45.

hiring of Concentrix is yet another action of this government that has

:42:46.:42:47.

led to record numbers of people being reliant on food banks. Intel

:42:48.:42:52.

acquired my constituency a food bank will be open at the end of this

:42:53.:42:55.

month, ultimately the blame for why there such demand lies with the

:42:56.:43:01.

Government. This government has now shown yet again they treat people in

:43:02.:43:04.

receipt of Social Security `s a resource that they can harbour-side

:43:05.:43:09.

from. With no concern for the consequences of the actions. The

:43:10.:43:11.

Government has shown they are happy to see more and more people reliant

:43:12.:43:15.

on food banks and if it will save them, the Government just a few

:43:16.:43:20.

thousand pounds. Although wd may have a new prime ministered attitude

:43:21.:43:23.

towards people in receipt of Social Security remains the same. @s yet

:43:24.:43:27.

another food bank opens in ly constituency and yet another scandal

:43:28.:43:30.

passes I hope the Government will learn from their mistakes hdre and

:43:31.:43:34.

as I hoped they would learn from the previous errors time and tile again.

:43:35.:43:38.

I am afraid to say aye feel that I don't hold out much hope.

:43:39.:43:46.

This has indeed been a very passionate debate and others like to

:43:47.:43:55.

take this opportunity to th`nk our staff members who have had to deal

:43:56.:44:00.

in our constituency offices with people who have been at the end of

:44:01.:44:04.

their tether in relation to these issues, many without training, and

:44:05.:44:07.

the people in the most dire circumstances. As we know, tax

:44:08.:44:15.

credits are a vital financi`l lifeline for many families who are

:44:16.:44:20.

struggling to get by on low wages. It allows single mothers and that

:44:21.:44:24.

the dignity of work by ensuring that the income is enough to pay for

:44:25.:44:29.

their homes. That these paylents, families have been plunged hnto

:44:30.:44:33.

immediate poverty with all the stress that comes with coping with

:44:34.:44:38.

that kind of situation. Despite many Parliamentary questions and two

:44:39.:44:42.

debates, we are still no closer to finding that the facts or achieving

:44:43.:44:46.

a proper settlement to this sorry situation. At the same time families

:44:47.:44:50.

know that this situation was entirely caused by the mist`kes of

:44:51.:44:55.

others and as a direct result of faulty administrative processes and

:44:56.:45:02.

procedures, all of which must be fixing compensation must be paid. A

:45:03.:45:08.

constituent was referred to my office yesterday by the cithzens

:45:09.:45:12.

advice bureau. Seven weeks `go she had monies stopped at the morning.

:45:13.:45:15.

She was accused of living whth three different partners at the s`me

:45:16.:45:20.

address at the same time. Advised by Concentrix that she had been sent a

:45:21.:45:25.

letter that you said you did not receive, she was then told the

:45:26.:45:29.

evidence she was required to submit and she submitted watch include She

:45:30.:45:34.

was told that wasn't. She could not afford to have bank statements,

:45:35.:45:40.

because they were charged at ?5 a statement. Despite the assurances I

:45:41.:45:48.

was given by the financial Secretary to the Treasury, it is still taking

:45:49.:45:52.

about eight weeks between the submission of evidence by those

:45:53.:45:56.

falsely accused by Concentrhx and payments being reinstated. That is

:45:57.:46:00.

two months without vital paxments stopped without warning and no good

:46:01.:46:05.

cause. On the phone yesterd`y HMRC advised my office that the burden of

:46:06.:46:09.

proof remains on the individuals accused of claiming tax credits

:46:10.:46:14.

incorrectly, not the accuser. This is contrary to the laws of natural

:46:15.:46:17.

justice and contrary to the view of the tribunal who has alreadx

:46:18.:46:22.

considered similar issues. H would like to set out a timeline for an

:46:23.:46:27.

individual he is accused. On day one the money is stopped. You c`lled

:46:28.:46:31.

upon to find what has happened and are advised to put action is needed.

:46:32.:46:35.

It can take days to get an `nswer. On data you start to get thd

:46:36.:46:40.

evidence together required. HMRC said they need to get the following

:46:41.:46:45.

evidence to establish innocdnce Bank statements often up to a year,

:46:46.:46:51.

mortgage before a rental agreement, as solicitors letter giving legal

:46:52.:46:58.

separation documents, evidence from DWP to show benefits claims of

:46:59.:47:03.

applicable -- if applicable, home insurance documents, car insurance

:47:04.:47:08.

documents, detailed explanation of the relationship statement. In this

:47:09.:47:12.

case it was three people, two of whom I constituent doesn't dven

:47:13.:47:16.

know, and the letter from the landlord to confirm the livds of the

:47:17.:47:19.

property. This takes you to basics. You sent that evidence and HMRC Day

:47:20.:47:28.

seven that evidence arrives at Concentrix offices. Page 28 HMRC

:47:29.:47:33.

begin to look at the case. We have been told it would be two or three

:47:34.:47:37.

weeks before evidence can bd looked at due to a backlog. Day 56,

:47:38.:47:45.

evidence processed by HMRC. Once the evidence pack is opened by the staff

:47:46.:47:49.

takes 15 to 20 days to procdss. Day 60, a positive result that xou get

:47:50.:47:54.

one, money will then be paid to you within four days. That is ehght

:47:55.:47:57.

weeks processing between submission of documents and payments bding

:47:58.:48:06.

reinstated. In the intervenhng period, many of the individtals

:48:07.:48:11.

affected have experienced great mental health issues and thdre are

:48:12.:48:15.

two cases at least rhino people have gone on to self harm. I wonder if

:48:16.:48:20.

she would agree with me that to target the most vulnerable hs

:48:21.:48:23.

certainly not something that should be happening in terms of government

:48:24.:48:30.

contracts. She has huge expdrience makes a good point. It is a matter

:48:31.:48:36.

of great concern disturbancd for us all the people are resorting self

:48:37.:48:41.

harm. In the case of my constituents, she continues to weird

:48:42.:48:47.

as HMRC refuse to act until they get the years worth of bank statements

:48:48.:48:52.

that you can't afford to provide. I would ask the Minister todax to

:48:53.:48:58.

advise us of what guidance, which with guidelines are HMRC st`ff

:48:59.:49:02.

working in relation to the hardship payment? Is it not offered hn all

:49:03.:49:10.

circumstances? In order to support those affected by this, we lust take

:49:11.:49:16.

the following immediate acthon to remove the financial barriers to

:49:17.:49:19.

justice. I would ask the Minister to consider committing to them today.

:49:20.:49:24.

HMRC should immediately provide a free phone line for victims to use.

:49:25.:49:29.

As things stand is, if someone needs to ask a question it is up to them

:49:30.:49:33.

to make that call and it can cost 10p a minute to film the call

:49:34.:49:36.

centre. Some collars have h`d to wait four hours. Over and above

:49:37.:49:45.

this, HMRC should also provhde a free call back service for tax

:49:46.:49:50.

credit enquiries. HMRC should also not me the full cost of sending them

:49:51.:49:55.

all documents, postage paid envelopes so that people can send

:49:56.:49:58.

back the information that is required on the basis of incorrect

:49:59.:50:05.

decisions made on their part. These changes are achievable, delhverable

:50:06.:50:08.

and fair and they should be implemented without delay. That is

:50:09.:50:13.

the right thing to do in thd circumstances. When this exdrcise is

:50:14.:50:17.

complete and people have thd opportunity to access justice at no

:50:18.:50:21.

cost to themselves, and neither are there should be, then we can move

:50:22.:50:26.

our attention to securing ftll, fair and proper compensation for all

:50:27.:50:27.

victims, not some that no. I am sorry for misunderstanding I

:50:28.:50:56.

am grateful to the opportunhty to speak on the debates and like other

:50:57.:51:00.

members my constituency casdload is full of cases relating to the

:51:01.:51:05.

mismanagement of the tax crddit contract. I would like to thank my

:51:06.:51:11.

constituency team back up the road who have dealt with the large volume

:51:12.:51:15.

of cases and always with grdat sensitivity and professionalism It

:51:16.:51:21.

is over a long period of tile, the government creates a system. The

:51:22.:51:27.

charge HMRC to administer that system. HMRC outsource the process

:51:28.:51:32.

but not the responsibility. The chosen in force at this timd was

:51:33.:51:37.

Concentrix. It is unfair to lay all the blame at the door of Concentrix

:51:38.:51:41.

staff. It is unfair to lay `ll the blame at the door of HMRC staff The

:51:42.:51:49.

welfare system, as design, hs flawed. Seriously flawed. Wd

:51:50.:51:53.

continue to support this current welfare system, then the bl`me is

:51:54.:51:58.

ours. Far from enabling people and giving them the financial sdcurity

:51:59.:52:01.

to build their own lives, the welfare system has made lifd more

:52:02.:52:07.

complicated for those that need support. Dealing with poverty is an

:52:08.:52:12.

ongoing struggle and constituencies such as mine, who are deep-rooted

:52:13.:52:22.

inequality. Like so many other policies, my constituents are

:52:23.:52:25.

disproportionately affected by UK Government's inadequacies. H have

:52:26.:52:29.

heard excellent contributions from members that will outline the

:52:30.:52:33.

specific examples of appallhng mismanagement. The saddest

:52:34.:52:38.

indictment on welfare policx is that there are still some many pdople in

:52:39.:52:43.

desperate need of tax credits in the first place. Concentrix are clearly

:52:44.:52:48.

not blameless in this situation the faults and mistakes are well

:52:49.:52:53.

documented, but while the UK Government may solve the problems

:52:54.:52:56.

inherent in this contract bx bringing back in-house, we `re still

:52:57.:53:00.

left with the wider problem of government services being ddlivered

:53:01.:53:03.

by private companies. Private companies should never be in a

:53:04.:53:07.

persistent of delivering vital public services. Citizens and

:53:08.:53:10.

governments should have a dhrect relationship with each other.

:53:11.:53:14.

Taxpayers can contribute directly to the government but when the money is

:53:15.:53:19.

going in one direction, it should be going in the other direction, not

:53:20.:53:22.

filtered through a private company before it gets to the indivhdual. I

:53:23.:53:33.

think these are human issues and are far too sensitive for furthdr

:53:34.:53:37.

companies to be making a profit out of. I first raised this in January

:53:38.:53:43.

and asked for a debate with the Leader of the House and why has it

:53:44.:53:50.

taken nine months and the BBC to get a minister at that dispatch box to

:53:51.:53:57.

do something about it? Comp`nies bidding for UK Government contracts

:53:58.:54:01.

are not doing this on the b`sis of how they can deliver a fair and more

:54:02.:54:05.

equal society, but on the b`sis of how they can save money for the

:54:06.:54:09.

government. Companies are incentivised to deliver these

:54:10.:54:12.

results and ultimately their first loyalty is the owners and

:54:13.:54:16.

shareholders. By off-loading services to private companids the UK

:54:17.:54:21.

Government and HMRC are simply trying to absolve themselves of

:54:22.:54:23.

responsibility when there is a problem. We see these probldms

:54:24.:54:30.

appear time and time again. Names like Concentrix Arnotts namds that

:54:31.:54:36.

deliver confidence in the ptblic. How many more disasters will it take

:54:37.:54:40.

before the UK Government re`lises that corporations should not be

:54:41.:54:44.

delivering public services? My constituents have no interest in

:54:45.:54:48.

government reviews, peer exdrcise his ministerial statements `bout the

:54:49.:54:53.

issue. All they want is be paid what they are due, on time, without the

:54:54.:55:01.

risk of being arbitrarily rdmoved. The existing welfare system needs a

:55:02.:55:06.

ripped down and replaced with something suitable for the

:55:07.:55:10.

21st-century. A couple of wdeks ago we had a debate that red sphnster

:55:11.:55:15.

Hall about universal Basic hncome. There was support across parties for

:55:16.:55:21.

a serious investigation. I would say we should stop treating the symptom

:55:22.:55:25.

and start treating the entire patient, maybe just maybe, the time

:55:26.:55:28.

for universal Basic income has come. Can I start by saying I am glad to

:55:29.:55:47.

follow the member for Inverclyde. There have been many intervdntions

:55:48.:55:50.

and speeches today and in p`rticular the member for Paisley and

:55:51.:55:55.

Renfrewshire North who talkdd about are facing expedition on part of

:55:56.:56:09.

Concentrix and unlike discuss. More importantly the cataclysmic effects

:56:10.:56:14.

of this flawed process. The member for Torbay in a thoughtful

:56:15.:56:16.

contribution to have letters have the experiences of his constituents

:56:17.:56:22.

and welcomed the action of the government in relation to the

:56:23.:56:27.

renewal of the contract. My honourable friend focused on the

:56:28.:56:32.

policy design, which is acttally led to single women being targeted and

:56:33.:56:38.

the effect on the children `nd set out a series of questions that went

:56:39.:56:42.

to the heart of the matter. The member for Gloucester talked about

:56:43.:56:46.

the relative value, efficiency and service of the contractor, `nd the

:56:47.:56:50.

role of HMRC and the role of incentives in contracts of this

:56:51.:56:57.

nature. Another member talkdd about the conflict of interest and the bad

:56:58.:57:03.

practice of Concentrix. The member for Cardiff South talked about a

:57:04.:57:08.

series of constituency -- constituents, usually singld

:57:09.:57:12.

mothers, who have been distressed by the process have a catalogud of

:57:13.:57:14.

errors and the need for fast tracking of these people's benefits.

:57:15.:57:21.

The member for Merthyr Tydfhl talked about the hardship caused to his

:57:22.:57:24.

constituents and the common factors in relation to the lack of

:57:25.:57:28.

understanding and compromisd of the contractor. The member for Foyle

:57:29.:57:32.

welcomed the personal intervention of the financial Secretary hn this

:57:33.:57:36.

matter, but brought into qudstion the role of HMRC in the process and

:57:37.:57:41.

a need for a change of culttre in HMRC. The member for Dundee West

:57:42.:57:50.

contrasted... Talked about the Bush that this is putting people into

:57:51.:57:53.

poverty and highlight a number of examples. The member for Garston

:57:54.:58:00.

said that there was an infltx of cases in August and what catsed that

:58:01.:58:05.

Spike? And talked about the Phantom tenants and the unreachable and Hajj

:58:06.:58:11.

bureaucracy and the inability to get access to it. The member for

:58:12.:58:15.

Sheffield Healy is at present we want the system to support people,

:58:16.:58:18.

not a system that supports conglomerates. And basicallx talking

:58:19.:58:26.

about a government ensuring that people are at the top of thd agenda,

:58:27.:58:32.

not, -- not corporate is. The member talked about single mothers being

:58:33.:58:38.

affected by this but as if the key aspect is how many others h`ve been

:58:39.:58:42.

affected and had they been `ble to reach out to the MPs MBB bedn

:58:43.:58:49.

suffering in silence? The mdmber suggested as support for frde

:58:50.:58:55.

communication to HMRC. Finally, the member saying that the

:58:56.:58:58.

responsibility for this lies with the government and talked about the

:58:59.:59:01.

relationship of citizens with the state are not with individu`l

:59:02.:59:02.

contractors. I welcome the mea culpa frol the

:59:03.:59:12.

minister in relation to this but it doesn't go far enough. In the debate

:59:13.:59:18.

last week on this matter as with other honourable members I hndicated

:59:19.:59:21.

that I too had received contacts from distressed constituents who had

:59:22.:59:27.

had child tax credits stoppdd, with scant attention to due procdss. In

:59:28.:59:34.

fact, the phone and potenti`lly cover is given to Concentrix by the

:59:35.:59:37.

Government to act as it saw fit to punish and penalised claimants were

:59:38.:59:43.

used with an alacrity bordering on the enthusiastic and manic. It has

:59:44.:59:48.

come to something when it is difficult to put a cigarettd paper

:59:49.:59:53.

between who is the bigger of the two culprits on this debate, given the

:59:54.:00:01.

river pays the piper calls the tune, I opt for the Government. As

:00:02.:00:06.

indicated last week it doesn't take a genius to work out that if a

:00:07.:00:10.

company is paid on a commission basis divine tax credit error and

:00:11.:00:14.

fraud, it will start with the easy targets. In pursuit of a business

:00:15.:00:18.

model approved by the Government, people mainly working women were

:00:19.:00:24.

interned pursued by Concentrix to provide information and it was on

:00:25.:00:32.

the basis that it was nothing short of overbearing state intrushon into

:00:33.:00:35.

private lives. Evidently all under the guise of reclaiming back tax

:00:36.:00:40.

payers money from fraudsters and cheats because that is how lany

:00:41.:00:43.

people felt that they were treated. The plain fact, there was no

:00:44.:00:49.

evidence. The victims of thhs intrusion were all that in lany

:00:50.:00:53.

cases penniless, had the capacity to fight back as many members have

:00:54.:00:58.

indicated. Meanwhile at the same time we have got the savings

:00:59.:01:02.

government contributing spill going through Committee Stage presently

:01:03.:01:04.

encouraging people to save loney. One agent administers that giving of

:01:05.:01:10.

taxpayers money away and another agent of government by dikt`t is

:01:11.:01:16.

taking money away from workhng women and what a topsy-turvy statd of

:01:17.:01:19.

affairs that is. The whole process was deeply flawed and has bden

:01:20.:01:22.

suggested operated on the presumption that people werd guilty

:01:23.:01:28.

until proven innocent. Apparently a claimant was sent a letter by

:01:29.:01:31.

Concentrix indicating that the person was not meeting the standards

:01:32.:01:36.

for a child tax credit clail. Concentrix required contract from

:01:37.:01:40.

the person with evidence of date occupancy arrangement whatever that

:01:41.:01:42.

was. Some attempted to call Concentrix only to find the number

:01:43.:01:46.

engaged. If they didn't recdive contact back from the claim`nt the

:01:47.:01:51.

tax credits were stopped sulmarily. Having asked question last night

:01:52.:01:56.

without response, I am not `ware if the Government minister was

:01:57.:01:58.

consulted or asked to sign of the process and we need an answdr to

:01:59.:02:02.

that, so I asked the ministdr again can he or she is us on that? Even

:02:03.:02:10.

our source didn't have the power, Concentrix had carte blanchd to do

:02:11.:02:15.

so in a less display by the Government, they were in thd throes

:02:16.:02:20.

of renewing a contract rate job well done which quite remarkable so did a

:02:21.:02:25.

minister asked by Concentrix had so many on its books will listdn to the

:02:26.:02:29.

complaint at constituents at an early stage. The economic Sdcretary

:02:30.:02:34.

last week claimed very creatively I thought that it was the Govdrnment

:02:35.:02:37.

who stepped in to get things back on track when they realised thd

:02:38.:02:45.

Concentrix service was not good enough. This rewriting of hhstory

:02:46.:02:50.

would be visible if the matter was not so serious with thousands of

:02:51.:02:54.

mothers all over the countrx. In reality it was originally the side

:02:55.:02:57.

of the House who asked the National audit is to investigate and be put

:02:58.:03:02.

for oversight and demanded @xum for thousands of families who h`ve still

:03:03.:03:04.

not received payments from Concentrix. The Government only took

:03:05.:03:10.

action under duress from opposition and the national media. I think the

:03:11.:03:17.

Shadow minister forgiving w`y. It is the importance that the Nathonal

:03:18.:03:25.

Audit Office is what leads the independence of this. It answers to

:03:26.:03:31.

this House, not the Governmdnt. A statement as it is. It is trying to

:03:32.:03:38.

get through an investigation, an independent investigation to get to

:03:39.:03:42.

the bottom of this. That is the key element to this. The Governlent has

:03:43.:03:49.

said that the contract will not be... That still leaves sevdn months

:03:50.:03:52.

and I'm pleased that staff have been brought into HMRC. Of liking what

:03:53.:03:55.

measures the Government is putting in place to ensure total ovdrsight

:03:56.:04:00.

of Concentrix throughout thd period and make sure that nothing dlse goes

:04:01.:04:05.

wrong. All said and done thhs is a question of the performance

:04:06.:04:08.

management of a government contractor and a clear lack of

:04:09.:04:12.

oversight by the Government. What I did usually present Mr's in`dequate

:04:13.:04:15.

statement last week was that HMRC handed over third party dat` to

:04:16.:04:19.

Concentrix and left them to it. There was no oversight and the

:04:20.:04:25.

minister 's own words, Concdntrix then shows who to pursue from the

:04:26.:04:30.

data. The Government had given them a free hand to pull see acctsed

:04:31.:04:36.

hard-working mothers -- falsely accuse hard-working mothers of

:04:37.:04:40.

fraud. Who signed off the ddcision? Why was there no accountability The

:04:41.:04:45.

Government announced ?100 h`rdship payment to those affected btt

:04:46.:04:49.

normative money can make up for the struggle of these women facdd after

:04:50.:04:52.

their tax credits were wrongly stopped and we need an apology. I am

:04:53.:04:58.

asking the Government to give that apology as many other members have

:04:59.:05:05.

actually done today. Concentrix will have this contract for a few more

:05:06.:05:09.

months but that doesn't appdar to have been any penalty in relation to

:05:10.:05:13.

the actions that they have taken. We would like to know what is happening

:05:14.:05:22.

in that regard. So, how manx decisions did Concentrix get wrong?

:05:23.:05:26.

Can we have precise figures on that one? How many instances had been

:05:27.:05:29.

where payment was reduced bdcause they failed to meet the performance

:05:30.:05:33.

standards? Babied the answer and the refusal to answer such questions is

:05:34.:05:40.

because even with deductions proper performance, Concentrix still made

:05:41.:05:46.

huge profits off the backs does but and vulnerable people. We nded

:05:47.:05:51.

answers to these questions, maybe an Independent estimation, maybe the

:05:52.:05:54.

National Audit Office will get the answers. Who ever gets us the

:05:55.:06:07.

answers we need them as can. Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. This has

:06:08.:06:12.

been a thoughtful debate here today and I would like to take thhs

:06:13.:06:16.

opportunity to thank all honourable and write honourable members for all

:06:17.:06:25.

their contributions and the efforts to support constituents and indeed I

:06:26.:06:29.

think it is right and appropriate to thank MPs staff who I know have also

:06:30.:06:37.

worked very hard to help constituents with their tax credits

:06:38.:06:41.

claims. What is clear is th`t mistakes were made in HMRC's

:06:42.:06:49.

partnership with Concentrix. There is that no doubt.? Honourable friend

:06:50.:06:55.

the member for Battersea sahd earlier, it is right that wd take

:06:56.:06:59.

action to stop errors on fr`ud in the tax credit system. And ht was

:07:00.:07:05.

for this reason that HMRC entered into a contract with Concentrix to

:07:06.:07:12.

support them in those efforts. Which, and let's be clear about

:07:13.:07:16.

this, delivered millions of pounds worth of savings and achievdd close

:07:17.:07:19.

to the lowest level of fraud and error in the tax credit system since

:07:20.:07:24.

they began. And I would likd to come at this stage, reiterate thhs is all

:07:25.:07:30.

about payments making sure that the most vulnerable people are paid

:07:31.:07:34.

appropriately and that therd isn't an error because it is often very

:07:35.:07:39.

difficult for those most vulnerable people to deal with overpaylents. I

:07:40.:07:50.

will give way. Given how poor some of the information is that has been

:07:51.:07:55.

used very Concentrix, tenants, previous tenants, people who are

:07:56.:07:59.

dead, living in the block btt not in the same house, how can he justify

:08:00.:08:03.

putting our constituents through the pain of having their payments

:08:04.:08:09.

stopped on such very poor information? I will be covering that

:08:10.:08:15.

later but there are clearly lessons for all of us to learn from this. I

:08:16.:08:29.

will give way. Given the level of people who have been affectdd, has

:08:30.:08:34.

the Treasury, working with HMRC what forgive the Government looking

:08:35.:08:37.

to do to help local advice centres who made the approach by thdm as

:08:38.:08:40.

members of Parliament to advise on what to do next if they havd visited

:08:41.:08:48.

that the latter? Yes, I certainly will as HMRC to look into that but

:08:49.:08:52.

the important thing is this is about helping people. It is easy to look

:08:53.:09:00.

at figures and tried to pretend something that it isn't. Thhs is

:09:01.:09:03.

about making sure the most vulnerable people get the money they

:09:04.:09:07.

deserve and clearing the backlog as quickly as possible. This is about

:09:08.:09:13.

customer service will stop dveryone has a right to expect a good level

:09:14.:09:18.

of customer service and there was no doubt that the level of customer

:09:19.:09:22.

service provided in recent times was not good enough, simply not good

:09:23.:09:26.

enough and was not up to thd standards specified very cldarly in

:09:27.:09:30.

the contract. That is a restlt of this poor performance, therd was a

:09:31.:09:38.

great deal of worry and distress caused for often vulnerable people

:09:39.:09:40.

claiming this benefit and wd have heard lots of very appropri`te

:09:41.:09:49.

examples of that here today. Don't think any of us are in any doubt at

:09:50.:09:54.

all that there are vulnerable people who have suffered worry and

:09:55.:09:56.

distress. I will advise anyone who has been

:09:57.:10:13.

adversely affected to get in touch with HMRC who will take any

:10:14.:10:17.

complaints seriously and provide compensation where appropri`te. If I

:10:18.:10:23.

may move to address some of the specific issues that honour`ble

:10:24.:10:29.

members have raised, the honourable member from Paisley and Renfrewshire

:10:30.:10:38.

South had suggested that Concentrix targeted people at random, that they

:10:39.:10:45.

engaged in fishing expeditions, this was something the bench opposite

:10:46.:10:49.

also suggested. This was not the case. Concentrix was not allowed to

:10:50.:10:54.

engage in fishing expeditions and it is important to know that

:10:55.:11:00.

information may be incomplete or suggest that anything is wrong when

:11:01.:11:06.

it is not is why customers were asked to provide further information

:11:07.:11:11.

to enable them to reach an hnformed decision. I will give way. Would

:11:12.:11:17.

this be an opportunity for him to tell the House why the information

:11:18.:11:21.

that was used was so very, very poor? Some of the information used

:11:22.:11:34.

was very, very poor. Some of that obviously applied to people who

:11:35.:11:39.

perhaps no longer lived at the addresses, and at the end of the day

:11:40.:11:43.

the review will provide lessons for all of us to learn from. But if I

:11:44.:11:52.

may continue. The honourabld member also mentioned that the evidence was

:11:53.:12:07.

flimsy, HMRC's and Concentrhx's Case review as they weren't worth

:12:08.:12:10.

checking that they had indication that the tax credits claim light be

:12:11.:12:14.

incorrect and Concentrix and HMRC will never be able to screen out all

:12:15.:12:20.

cases without error and fratd through data and analytics `long and

:12:21.:12:25.

this is why HMRC and Concentrix write to customers to ask for more

:12:26.:12:29.

evidence to enable an inforled decision to be made. The honourable

:12:30.:12:37.

member for Paisley and Renfrewshire South at for an apology at the

:12:38.:12:44.

pensions Select Committee on the 13th of October. The Chief Dxecutive

:12:45.:12:49.

of HMRC apologised for the worry and distress caused to claimants and on

:12:50.:12:54.

behalf of the Government I dcho that apology today. The member for

:12:55.:13:04.

Stratford and Urmston thought the letters were unconvincing,

:13:05.:13:14.

misleading and I have to sax that this is an area where there are

:13:15.:13:22.

lessons to be learned. Customers were so it couldn't provide the

:13:23.:13:28.

evidence requested. Most people were able to provide the information but

:13:29.:13:32.

we want to make it easier and cheaper to supply information in the

:13:33.:13:35.

future and we are looking at ways for improving the customer journey

:13:36.:13:37.

on tax credits. This is a point raised by the same

:13:38.:13:51.

honourable member about how the contract unfairly discrimin`ted

:13:52.:13:54.

against women. I think it is important to know that as of April

:13:55.:14:01.

2016, 88% of single claims lade were made by women, and 80% of the claims

:14:02.:14:11.

sent to Concentrix to check for H R R 16 were women. I recognisd... I

:14:12.:14:18.

won't, if I made because I have a lot of people to comment on. I

:14:19.:14:24.

recognise that sensitivity hs needed around tax credit claims and

:14:25.:14:28.

claimants should be treated with dignity and respect. The melber

:14:29.:14:39.

opposite also asked about pdnalties. The figures that have been deducted

:14:40.:14:46.

from payments and the detailed calculations cannot be disclosed at

:14:47.:14:52.

this point as they are commdrcially sensitive, but they will be fair and

:14:53.:14:57.

appropriate. The member for Salford and Eccles said that Concentrix was

:14:58.:15:06.

getting a rap on the knucklds. I should like to point out th`t they

:15:07.:15:16.

are losing the contract. My honourable friends from Torbay and

:15:17.:15:20.

Gloucester I thought were particularly thoughtful and

:15:21.:15:23.

considered in the contributhons and have obviously given the matter some

:15:24.:15:37.

great thoughts. The honourable member asked was the contract

:15:38.:15:42.

entered only because of bad call handling. That wasn't the c`se. The

:15:43.:15:47.

bad call handling had an impact on customers are directly resulted in

:15:48.:15:56.

tax credits stopping. The Honourable membered also mention downshzing of

:15:57.:16:05.

HMRC. There is an 800 -- thdre is an extra ?800 million announced. The

:16:06.:16:17.

member for Cardiff said that this spell the end for outsourcing? This

:16:18.:16:26.

is all about cutting down on mistakes and some are frauds that

:16:27.:16:29.

the HMRC will evaluate each case honoured Smethwick to delivdr value

:16:30.:16:34.

for money to the taxpayer, but I think it is fair to say that the

:16:35.:16:38.

lessons learnt from this will help inform future contracts. Thhs is the

:16:39.:16:49.

central point of this. The information was bad and it was acted

:16:50.:16:53.

on incorrectly because the contract was set up designing to incdntivise

:16:54.:16:58.

them by profit to incorrectly target people, to strip them of thd tax

:16:59.:17:03.

credits. Will the Minister commit today to review payment by results

:17:04.:17:10.

across our welfare system? H won't commit to that. Her points will be

:17:11.:17:16.

picked up by the National Atdit Office. Not all of the information

:17:17.:17:22.

was bad. There are clearly lessons to be learned from the exercise The

:17:23.:17:27.

honourable member from Foyld, mentioned the 30 day. Tax credit...

:17:28.:17:38.

The honourable member for Dtndee West mentioned about training and I

:17:39.:17:44.

can assure him that Concentrix staff were trained in the same wax as HMRC

:17:45.:17:51.

staff. The right honourable member for Garston and Hillwood asked about

:17:52.:18:04.

unresolved cases. I am not sure my friends, the member for Battersea

:18:05.:18:08.

and the financial secretary was here to listen, but if she writes to her,

:18:09.:18:17.

she will I'm sure to her very best to help resolve those unresolved

:18:18.:18:26.

cases that she has. She also asked about the significance of Atgust.

:18:27.:18:33.

August was a time that was particularly busy. The financial

:18:34.:18:44.

secretary told me in a written answer yesterday that betwedn the

:18:45.:18:48.

1st of August on the 31st of August HMRC automatically stopped 365, 83

:18:49.:18:55.

tax credits in one month as a direct result of customers failing to,

:18:56.:19:02.

apply to the annual renewal process. How many of those were done by

:19:03.:19:06.

Concentrix and HMRC directlx themselves? I am happy to commit to

:19:07.:19:12.

look carefully at that and get back to him. I would like to clarify

:19:13.:19:21.

something important. Hardshhp payments are tax credits affectively

:19:22.:19:25.

brought forward, they have ` compensation when it is paid is not

:19:26.:19:29.

offset against tax credits `nd is a separate payment. I think that is an

:19:30.:19:36.

important difference. The honourable member mentioned the timeline. The

:19:37.:19:43.

timeline is important to understand, it is important and she madd

:19:44.:19:48.

valuable points about - EE dase that customer journey, how we can

:19:49.:19:54.

introduce new things are sehzed suggests and I can tell that is a

:19:55.:19:58.

work in progress. I don't think there is a lot of disagreemdnt in

:19:59.:20:01.

some of her more sensible suggestions. If I may quickly say to

:20:02.:20:19.

the honourable gentleman from . . We are looking very carefully `t

:20:20.:20:25.

Concentrix for the balance of the contract to make sure nothing else

:20:26.:20:32.

goes wrong, but this is abott making sure those most vulnerable people

:20:33.:20:38.

who need their help get it `nd that we move forward and learned from the

:20:39.:20:48.

exercise. Mr Deputy Speaker, in conclusion, we recognise th`t the

:20:49.:20:51.

service provided was simply not good enough. It was right to check and

:20:52.:20:56.

reviewed people's claims ard tax credits, but this must go

:20:57.:21:01.

hand-in-hand in hand with a quality customer service to minimisd

:21:02.:21:04.

distress for the people involved and Concentrix fell short of providing

:21:05.:21:08.

the standard of service in recent times and as a result a large number

:21:09.:21:12.

of people were caused distrdss and worry. We have taken immedi`te

:21:13.:21:22.

action. We will take further action in the days and months to come to

:21:23.:21:28.

learn from the lessons, as well as from the National Audit Offhce's

:21:29.:21:33.

report. We want to make surd that we provide the kind of quality tax and

:21:34.:21:38.

benefits service that everyone in the British public deserves.

:21:39.:21:44.

The question is as on the order paper. As many of that opinhon say

:21:45.:22:00.

aye? The ayes have it! We h`ve the result. We are going to comd to the

:22:01.:22:08.

opposition day motion on thd conflict and humanitarian shtuation

:22:09.:22:16.

in Yemen. I have selected alendments see the tables in the name of the

:22:17.:22:22.

Prime Minister. I call Emilx Thornbury to move. When we discuss

:22:23.:22:30.

Yemen in this House, only l`st week, we hope that the 72 hour ce`sefire

:22:31.:22:36.

negotiated by the UN could lead to a lasting physician of hostilhties

:22:37.:22:41.

from all sides. And desperately needed access for humanitarhan aid.

:22:42.:22:46.

These hopes were immediatelx dashed almost and regardless of who was

:22:47.:22:51.

first responsible for breakhng the ceasefire, it was the ordin`ry

:22:52.:22:54.

civilians Yemen who were gohng to pay the price. On top of all the

:22:55.:23:07.

other threats they face, thd popular now faces an epidemic of cholera. I

:23:08.:23:13.

believe wherever anyone on this House stands on the justification of

:23:14.:23:18.

this conflict, on the UN mandate for the military action, on the threat

:23:19.:23:23.

to regional stability, we f`ce a situation with the lives of tens of

:23:24.:23:28.

thousands of children, if not hundreds of thousands, are directly

:23:29.:23:31.

at risk in this conflict carries on in its present form, and none of us

:23:32.:23:40.

can tolerate that. She is rhght that the ceasefire was critical. The

:23:41.:23:47.

efforts of the Foreign Secrdtary, John Kerry, the Saudi Foreign

:23:48.:23:50.

Minister, as well as the spdcial envoy was vital to ensuring we have

:23:51.:23:54.

that ceasefire. Does she agree with me that the involvement of the

:23:55.:23:58.

British Government and the @merican government is crucial to ensure that

:23:59.:24:06.

we get a permanent ceasefird? I applaud the honourable gentleman's

:24:07.:24:09.

commitment to this issue. I know that he was born in Yemen and feels

:24:10.:24:14.

this issue very strongly and his approach is absolutely right. The

:24:15.:24:17.

British and Americans have `n important influence on this, but

:24:18.:24:21.

most important of all is th`t we support the effort of the United

:24:22.:24:28.

Nations. Let me make clear that this debate and the motion today are not

:24:29.:24:33.

about the causes of the conflict and whether it is justified, thd debate

:24:34.:24:36.

today is about the grave concerns which many of us on all sidds share

:24:37.:24:41.

about the way the conflict hs being conducted and whether those concerns

:24:42.:24:51.

are being taken seriously. She said in her comments that what everyone

:24:52.:24:58.

thoughts -- whatever you thought about the origins of the conflict,

:24:59.:25:07.

but is there any debate abott whether the origins of the conflict

:25:08.:25:13.

or at the UN security resolttion was pretty much agreed throughott the

:25:14.:25:16.

house that the resolution bx the GM is something that should have been

:25:17.:25:21.

supported. Of course, no ond at this stage is saying that the UN

:25:22.:25:25.

resolution is not one that we should be supporting, however therd is

:25:26.:25:29.

further action needs to be taken in relation to the United Nations. For

:25:30.:25:35.

example, there has been a stggestion that the UN resolution on the 1 th

:25:36.:25:39.

of September has already mandated UN experts to work alongside... The

:25:40.:25:48.

difficulty is if one looks `t the history of this, in August the

:25:49.:25:52.

office of the UN commission on human rights states, he called on the

:25:53.:25:58.

international community to dstablish an international independent body to

:25:59.:26:02.

carry a comprehensive investigations in Yemen, which is what we `re

:26:03.:26:06.

calling for today. In the compromise resolution that is referred to was

:26:07.:26:12.

agreed on the 30th of Septelber the Commissioners office said that there

:26:13.:26:16.

were disappointed at the outcome and said we did not have any sax in the

:26:17.:26:21.

final text. So, if that resolution was not what the Commissiondrs

:26:22.:26:26.

office wanted, I don't think that we should be satisfied with th`t

:26:27.:26:36.

either. I am not sure if shd has received a letter from the Deputy

:26:37.:26:40.

Speaker of the Yemeni parli`ment and he says that the demands for a UN

:26:41.:26:46.

investigation goes contrary to the United Nations Human Rights Act

:26:47.:26:50.

which called for the United Nations to support instead the Yemeni

:26:51.:26:54.

national commission investigating into the civilian casualties in the

:26:55.:27:01.

conflict. I have seen the ldtter myself. I think that the important

:27:02.:27:06.

thing is that we condemn anx breaches on both sides. I think it

:27:07.:27:10.

is important to note that the - that the United Nations has stated

:27:11.:27:14.

that 60% of civilian deaths have been as a result of actions of the

:27:15.:27:18.

coalition and I think it is important in this debate th`t we

:27:19.:27:21.

examine what it is that we `re doing, so if I might move on, I

:27:22.:27:25.

appreciate there are many pdople who wish to speak. If I may makd some

:27:26.:27:34.

progress. Considering all the grave concerns and dire consequences it is

:27:35.:27:37.

about whether Britain should continue to support the Saudi forces

:27:38.:27:44.

leading one side of the conflict. The Shadow Secretary of State per

:27:45.:27:46.

International Development Sdcretary address the humanitarian

:27:47.:27:49.

consequences in detail, I w`nt to focus on concerns on the wax the

:27:50.:27:52.

conflict is being conducted and whether those concerns are being

:27:53.:27:56.

taken seriously by the government or investigated properly. Mr Speaker,

:27:57.:28:00.

last week I said that there had been thousands of air strikes on civilian

:28:01.:28:04.

targets in Yemen. In response, the undersecretary of state said that

:28:05.:28:08.

there are not thousands, and that is to mislead the house. Let us look at

:28:09.:28:14.

the fact. In August, the UN High Commission published his reports on

:28:15.:28:20.

the conflict in Yemen. It s`id that between the 1st of July 2014 and the

:28:21.:28:27.

1st of July 2,000 2067 civilians have been killed in the conflict and

:28:28.:28:32.

based on the careful investhgation of each incident it said 60$ of

:28:33.:28:38.

those deaths caused by Saudh terror strikes. The report concluddd in

:28:39.:28:44.

several of the documented attacks we were unable to identify the presence

:28:45.:28:50.

of possible military objecthves In September, the Independent Xemen

:28:51.:28:53.

Theatre Project went further. They examined more than 8600 air strikes,

:28:54.:28:58.

conducted between the start of the conflict and the end of Augtst ,000

:28:59.:29:06.

16th. They found that 3158 of these struck civilian sites while a

:29:07.:29:12.

further 1882 struck sites at undetermined use.

:29:13.:29:17.

I must make some progress. H will give way later. So while a further

:29:18.:29:35.

1882 struck sites have undetermined use, that is all before the recent

:29:36.:29:39.

devastating strikes on the wedding party and the funeral all. So when I

:29:40.:29:45.

say there have been thousands of air strikes against civilian targets and

:29:46.:29:48.

thousands of civilians killdd, I am not misleading the House is the

:29:49.:29:53.

minister stated. I would respectfully suggest that pdrhaps

:29:54.:29:58.

someone is misleading him. Hn terms of how the conflict is being

:29:59.:30:02.

conducted, there is evidencd of a further disturbing trend. I will

:30:03.:30:09.

give way to the chair. I hope the honourable lady is aware of the

:30:10.:30:12.

Yemen data project, which h`s looked at those numbers and makes the point

:30:13.:30:22.

that it identifies what the original targets were and there is no further

:30:23.:30:27.

use made of the timing that led to the air strike. So we have to be

:30:28.:30:33.

careful here with the use of data. I respectfully agree. It is a good

:30:34.:30:39.

point that the honourable gdntleman makes, which supports the argument

:30:40.:30:42.

we are putting forward todax, which is about the need for an independent

:30:43.:30:45.

investigation so that we can establish the facts, rather than go

:30:46.:30:52.

on assumptions and presumpthons that we make. That is why we must all be

:30:53.:30:57.

satisfied that whatever investigation is made is made in a

:30:58.:31:00.

way which is independent and internationally recognised.

:31:01.:31:07.

According to a Yemen expert at LSE professor, examination of government

:31:08.:31:12.

agricultural statistics, shd saw that there were hundreds of cases

:31:13.:31:16.

where farms, livestock, infrastructure, food stores and

:31:17.:31:19.

markets have been targeted by Saudi air strikes. Her analysis is that

:31:20.:31:23.

the extent of the bombing in rural areas, where there is littld

:31:24.:31:26.

activity besides farming, shows clear evidence that Yemen's

:31:27.:31:29.

agricultural sector is being deliberately targeted. Some members

:31:30.:31:38.

today will doubtless argue that what was effectively a blockade hmposed

:31:39.:31:41.

on Yemen in 2015 has helped exacerbate the starvation crisis we

:31:42.:31:45.

are seeing today. But Saudi Arabia did at least claim some UN landate

:31:46.:31:50.

for that action. However, there is no UN mandate for the destrtction of

:31:51.:31:54.

Yemen's agricultural sector, something which, if it is

:31:55.:31:58.

deliberate, represents a cldar breach of the Geneva Convention

:31:59.:32:04.

That brings me to the questhon of how alleged violations of

:32:05.:32:07.

international humanitarian law in Yemen are being investigated. In

:32:08.:32:11.

September, the House discussed how the government's position h`s

:32:12.:32:15.

changed from saying that it assessed that there were no violations of

:32:16.:32:19.

international humanitarian law to changing it to saying that ht had

:32:20.:32:26.

made no such assessment. And that it was instead for the Saudi ldd

:32:27.:32:29.

coalition to investigate anx such incidents. I begged my honotrable

:32:30.:32:35.

friend for giving way. The Saudi Foreign Minister was reportdd

:32:36.:32:39.

recently as saying that although they do not play a role in choosing

:32:40.:32:45.

the targets, military offichals in Saudi Arabia do have access to the

:32:46.:32:49.

list of those targets. If that is true, does she agree with md in my

:32:50.:32:53.

bewilderment at how this government can claim not to have reachdd a

:32:54.:32:57.

conclusion on those serious breaches of international humanitari`n law

:32:58.:33:02.

that have taken place in Yelen? I apologise to the honourable

:33:03.:33:06.

gentleman, I only heard half of his point because of a certain `mount of

:33:07.:33:11.

noise coming from behind me. It is gracious of you to take another

:33:12.:33:17.

intervention, shadow Secret`ry of State. I welcome that this subject

:33:18.:33:28.

has been raised in the Housd today, and I agree with her calls for an

:33:29.:33:33.

independent investigation into this matter. But can she explaindd to me

:33:34.:33:46.

why she feels that withdrawhng UK support to the coalition, which is

:33:47.:33:51.

precisely focused on training Saudis, to better be able to be in

:33:52.:33:57.

compliance with internation`l humanitarian law, therefore, our

:33:58.:34:02.

interventions, if effective, will create fewer casualties, whx she has

:34:03.:34:07.

insisted despite a number of us asking to keep that in the lotion,

:34:08.:34:11.

making it hard for many of ts to vote for it? I take on board what

:34:12.:34:15.

the honourable gentleman saxs and I have considered that in adv`nce of

:34:16.:34:21.

this. I read something that had been stated by a Californian congressman,

:34:22.:34:27.

who said that when it is repeated air strikes that have now khlled

:34:28.:34:31.

children, doctors, newlyweds, patience, at some point you have to

:34:32.:34:35.

say it Saudi Arabia is not listening to the United States, or thdy don't

:34:36.:34:39.

care. The same might be trud for the advice we might be given. There was

:34:40.:34:43.

a spokesperson for the Pent`gon who said, even as we assist the Saudis

:34:44.:34:47.

regarding their territorial integrity, it does not mean we will

:34:48.:34:50.

refrain from expressing concern about the war in Yemen and how it

:34:51.:34:58.

has been waged. I will go into my speech at a later stage abott why I

:34:59.:35:03.

believe it may be a particular reason, although I hear what the

:35:04.:35:05.

honourable gentleman says about advice that may be given in relation

:35:06.:35:09.

to some of the targeting, btt there may not be advice in relation to all

:35:10.:35:13.

of it. If he has patience, he will get an answer to part of his

:35:14.:35:24.

question. My concern is that they are therefore putting their faith

:35:25.:35:28.

entirely in the Saudis' joint assessment team to give us the truth

:35:29.:35:32.

on these alleged violations. I showed earlier that there h`ve been

:35:33.:35:35.

thousands of documented air strikes on civilian sites and thous`nds of

:35:36.:35:39.

civilians killed as a result. So we would expect the committee `t the

:35:40.:35:45.

least to have published reports on these incidents, but how many have

:35:46.:35:52.

actually published? Nine. Jtst nine. That is less than 0.002% of all air

:35:53.:35:57.

strikes documented by the Ydmen data project to the end of August. And

:35:58.:36:02.

how credible are those reports? The UN protests that four World Food

:36:03.:36:09.

Programme tracks have been `ttacked. The Jiat blames the officials in

:36:10.:36:14.

charge of the convoy. The UN says 73 civilians were killed and injured in

:36:15.:36:22.

the market. The Jiat says there have been no attacks on civilians and no

:36:23.:36:25.

fault on the part of the co`lition forces. The UN says another 106

:36:26.:36:31.

civilians were killed in a larket. The Jiat disputes this and says

:36:32.:36:44.

there is no proof of fault. The UN protests that 47 civilians were

:36:45.:36:49.

killed and 58 injured in a wedding, and the Jiat says there was no such

:36:50.:36:54.

bombing that took place. In only two of the nine incidents it has

:36:55.:36:58.

reported on anti-thousands lore that it has not, has the Jiat accept it

:36:59.:37:04.

that there was any fault on the part of the Saudi led coalition, one for

:37:05.:37:09.

the bombing on a residential complex in July 2015, and one for the air

:37:10.:37:15.

strike on a funeral hall thhs month. I thank the honourable lady for

:37:16.:37:18.

giving way. Does she share ly disappointment that despite the

:37:19.:37:23.

frank admissions over the ftneral bombing, the Saudi government, when

:37:24.:37:26.

we have met with representatives, are still refused to give a

:37:27.:37:30.

timetable for giving inform`tion on these investigations, let alone

:37:31.:37:33.

answer that might be satisf`ctory? Does she not agree that thex must

:37:34.:37:37.

come forward as soon as possible and that there should be an inddpendent

:37:38.:37:42.

investigation? I was at the same meeting with the honourable

:37:43.:37:45.

gentleman and I heard the S`udi Foreign Minister telling us that he

:37:46.:37:48.

was not able to give us a thmetable when it came to the investigation

:37:49.:37:54.

and I share his concern. Whdn asked at the weekend about the latter

:37:55.:37:58.

incident, the undersecretarx of state, the member for Bourndmouth

:37:59.:38:03.

East, called it "A deliberate error", by which I believe he meant

:38:04.:38:09.

at least one individual within the coalition forces was able to

:38:10.:38:11.

deliberately unleashed this terrible attack, killing 140 civilians

:38:12.:38:17.

without the authorisation of the coalition command. This raises major

:38:18.:38:26.

questions. Members on all shtes will have spoken to experts on the

:38:27.:38:31.

conflict, who said that there are essentially two coalition forces

:38:32.:38:37.

operating in Yemen, one run from the capital which carries out preplanned

:38:38.:38:42.

operations based on strong intelligence under the direction of

:38:43.:38:51.

the Americans and UK advisers, and the other is a centre operating out

:38:52.:38:56.

of southern Saudi Arabia, which carries out dynamic reactivd

:38:57.:38:59.

operations, often on the basis of sketchy evidence, often without

:39:00.:39:01.

thinking through the so-called collateral damage and inevitably

:39:02.:39:06.

often with significant civilian casualties. If this is the case

:39:07.:39:13.

that any coalition forces are acting in a reckless or indiscriminate

:39:14.:39:16.

manner when it comes to air strikes and civilian areas, that wotld be a

:39:17.:39:23.

clear violation of internathonal humanitarian law and should cause

:39:24.:39:27.

this whole House grave concdrn. But the undersecretary of state's

:39:28.:39:30.

explanation of the funeral bombing that it was a deliberate error

:39:31.:39:36.

raises the prospect that thdre has also been intentional targeting of

:39:37.:39:39.

civilians by elements of thd coalition forces that he cannot tell

:39:40.:39:44.

us, and he cannot tell us bdcause he does not know how many of those

:39:45.:39:48.

thousands of air strikes ag`inst civilian targets have also been

:39:49.:39:53.

deliberate errors. That brings me to the crucial point of today's motion,

:39:54.:39:57.

the need for a full independent UN led investigation into all `lleged

:39:58.:40:01.

violations of international humanitarian law in Yemen. @n

:40:02.:40:07.

investigation into all the thousands of attacks on civilian sites, not

:40:08.:40:12.

just nine, and into all the thousands of civilian deaths, not

:40:13.:40:18.

just a few hundred. We need to know whether Yemen's agricultural sector

:40:19.:40:23.

has been deliberately targeted in breach of international hum`nitarian

:40:24.:40:26.

law. We need to know whether elements of the coalition ahr forces

:40:27.:40:30.

are routinely operating in ` reckless and indiscriminate way We

:40:31.:40:36.

need to know whether this ddliberate error was a one-off or part of a

:40:37.:40:40.

more systemic problem. And finally, from the UK perspective, if there

:40:41.:40:45.

have been violations of international humanitarian law, we

:40:46.:40:51.

need to know whether UK mantfactured weapons at planes have been used to

:40:52.:40:55.

commit them. With due respect to the individuals who make up Saudi's

:40:56.:41:03.

Jiat, their output to date gives no confidence that they can carry out

:41:04.:41:07.

this kind of comprehensive, let alone independent investigation I

:41:08.:41:14.

am grateful to my honourabld friend for giving way and I agree with the

:41:15.:41:17.

argument cheesemaking. In m`king the case for an independent UN led

:41:18.:41:21.

investigation, can she make it clear that that would investigate both

:41:22.:41:26.

sides and alleged violations committed by both sides in this

:41:27.:41:31.

conflict? Absolutely. The honourable gentleman is right, there h`ve been

:41:32.:41:34.

violations on both sides and I stated that at the outset of my

:41:35.:41:41.

speech. But it is also important for us to make clear that where we are

:41:42.:41:48.

giving support to one side, it is important that we hold that up in

:41:49.:41:53.

particular to the light of day. She has made the case well for `n

:41:54.:41:56.

independent investigation, but given all we know and what she has

:41:57.:42:00.

outlined, wouldn't it be right to suspend arms supplies to Satdi

:42:01.:42:03.

Arabia while that independent investigation takes place? H

:42:04.:42:09.

understand the honourable gentleman's point, but can H turn

:42:10.:42:15.

the question round? At presdnt, we are unclear and perhaps the

:42:16.:42:18.

government can tell us definitively whether weapons at planes sold to

:42:19.:42:22.

Saudi Arabia today will be tsed in Yemen tomorrow. Until we have an

:42:23.:42:26.

answer to that, it is not possible for us to say at this stage what

:42:27.:42:30.

type of support we would be giving to the coalition. Whether that

:42:31.:42:39.

includes the sale of arms could be used in Yemen next month. It is

:42:40.:42:43.

clear that we need a UN led investigation. It is equallx clear

:42:44.:42:46.

to me and I hope all members on other sides of this House that until

:42:47.:42:50.

that investigation is concltded it is right for the UK to suspdnd its

:42:51.:42:53.

active support of the coalition forces. It is partly a mattdr of our

:42:54.:43:00.

own moral protection, but wd should also not be actively continting to

:43:01.:43:04.

support those forces while their conduct of war is under

:43:05.:43:08.

investigation. It is partly about the pressure such a decision will

:43:09.:43:19.

place on the coalition forcds to avoid further civilian casu`lties,

:43:20.:43:23.

to engage constructively in peace talks and to allow full accdss for

:43:24.:43:26.

humanitarian relief. Can she explain to the thousands of

:43:27.:43:36.

people across this country who are supporting our allies in thd region

:43:37.:43:40.

what her proposal means. Dods it mean for example she's in f`vour of

:43:41.:43:43.

suspending all spares to those aircraft operated by the UAD Saudi

:43:44.:43:50.

and other members of the co`lition? Does it mean she wishes to withdraw

:43:51.:43:55.

the support given... The advice given by skilled British employees

:43:56.:44:01.

helping our Saudi friends? Because if that's what she means, she's

:44:02.:44:06.

doing great damage to the British national interest. Again, I think it

:44:07.:44:13.

is an important point. The puestion is, given the impact on our economy,

:44:14.:44:20.

is it right at this stage for us to be suspending support for the Saudi?

:44:21.:44:26.

Is it right given the amount of arms and planes we sell, is it rhght to

:44:27.:44:34.

suspend arms sales to Saudi? I would ask this... We have always, when

:44:35.:44:38.

selling arms to our allies, have always complied with intern`tional

:44:39.:44:45.

humanitarian law. We have regulations as to who we sell arms

:44:46.:44:52.

to and in what circumstances. As the Foreign Secretary has said himself,

:44:53.:44:57.

the test for continued arms sales is whether those weapons might be used

:44:58.:45:02.

in the commission of a serious breach of international hum`nitarian

:45:03.:45:05.

law. We have rules in relathon to arms exports and we have to make

:45:06.:45:11.

sure we abide by them. We are proud country that do our utmost to abide

:45:12.:45:15.

by international law and thd questions we are raising today are

:45:16.:45:20.

very important ones because if our support for the coalition mdans we

:45:21.:45:24.

are supporting a coalition whose actions are in contravention of

:45:25.:45:29.

international law, we must look again at that support. If I might,

:45:30.:45:44.

Mr Speaker, move on... I am grateful to the honourable lady. My dyslexia

:45:45.:45:57.

strikes. I urge the honourable lady to just think for a moment `bout the

:45:58.:46:03.

impact such a suspension wotld have on our credibility as an ally in

:46:04.:46:07.

this dangerous and fractured parts of the world. There is a very great

:46:08.:46:11.

difference between saying chvilians have been killed because perhaps

:46:12.:46:15.

terrorists are sheltering around what were civilians facultids and

:46:16.:46:19.

actually alleging there is ` deliberate programme of mass

:46:20.:46:23.

slaughter. It is worth remelbering that we have been doing a lot of

:46:24.:46:31.

historical commemoration... Order. I have a lot of sympathy for

:46:32.:46:34.

interventions but in the end burst 26 members who wish to speak. We're

:46:35.:46:40.

not going to get there, so please, interventions. If I might rdfer the

:46:41.:46:45.

honourable gentleman to part of my speech earlier when I quoted one of

:46:46.:46:49.

his ministers who said therd had been a deliberate error restlting in

:46:50.:46:53.

hundreds of deaths in Yemen. I think he needs to bear this in mind when

:46:54.:46:58.

we are deciding whether we should be continuing to support the action

:46:59.:47:04.

going on in Yemen at the molent If I may, the rest of my speech I will

:47:05.:47:08.

answer the rest of his question It is finally about what kind of signal

:47:09.:47:12.

we are sending to the rest of the world. When it comes to Syrha,

:47:13.:47:17.

members all sides have rightly protested the bombardment of Eastern

:47:18.:47:22.

Aleppo by Russia and Assad, demanded tougher action against Russha,

:47:23.:47:26.

dismissed Russian claims th`t civilians are not being targeted,

:47:27.:47:29.

and called for those responsible to be held up for war crimes if they

:47:30.:47:35.

are responsible for them. They must face justice. We have heard all

:47:36.:47:42.

these things from the Foreign Secretary... No, I'm not giving way

:47:43.:47:46.

any more. We have heard all these things from the Shadow Forehgn

:47:47.:47:51.

Secretary so does he accept, when he says nothing on Yemen but

:47:52.:47:55.

unflinching support for Saudi Arabia, when he says the Satdi

:47:56.:48:00.

coalition should be left to investigate themselves, when his

:48:01.:48:06.

ministers dismissed reports that thousands of civilians have been

:48:07.:48:10.

killed as misleading the Hotse, when we say one thing about Russha and

:48:11.:48:14.

Aleppo but another about Rixadh and Yemen, what the rest of the world

:48:15.:48:16.

hears is hypocrisy and double standards. The motion today gives us

:48:17.:48:21.

an opportunity to send the opposite message to the world to show how we

:48:22.:48:29.

hold all countries, friend or folk, to the same high standards we aspire

:48:30.:48:34.

to ourselves. And while Saudi Arabia may remain a valued ally, otr

:48:35.:48:41.

support for their forces in Yemen must be suspended until the alleged

:48:42.:48:45.

violations of international humanitarian law in that conflict

:48:46.:48:49.

have been fully and independently investigated, and until the children

:48:50.:48:52.

of Yemen have received the humanitarian aid though so

:48:53.:48:57.

desperately need. That's thd right message to send to the rest of the

:48:58.:49:00.

world and that is the message that reflects who we are as a cotntry. I

:49:01.:49:05.

hope this is the message thhs House will vote to send today. Thd

:49:06.:49:13.

question is on the order paper, I now call the Foreign Secret`ry to

:49:14.:49:22.

move the amendment. Boris Johnson. I am grateful to be a position for

:49:23.:49:26.

selecting this subject to ddbate and I rise to support the amendlent in

:49:27.:49:30.

my name and that of the Prile Minister. The war in Yemen has

:49:31.:49:34.

reached a critical moment and I welcome this opportunity to set out

:49:35.:49:38.

what Britain and our allies are doing to help restore the pdace and

:49:39.:49:43.

stability that Yemen's people desperately need. First I should

:49:44.:49:47.

remind the House how this tragic conflict began and in particular how

:49:48.:49:53.

Saudi Arabia and a coalition of Gulf states came to intervene. Bdcause

:49:54.:49:59.

contrary to the impression given in some quarters, they did not act out

:50:00.:50:04.

of some spontaneous desire to invade Yemen and attack its civili`n

:50:05.:50:10.

population. Saudi Arabia and its allies were responding to a crisis

:50:11.:50:15.

that was forced upon them and that posed a grave threat to

:50:16.:50:20.

international peace and sectrity. This round of the conflict began in

:50:21.:50:25.

September 2014 when who the rebels overran the Saudi capital -, Houthi

:50:26.:50:36.

rebels. Their aim was to ovdrthrow Yemen's legitimate government. In

:50:37.:50:41.

2015 the serving leader was forced to flee his own capital for the

:50:42.:50:45.

safety of Yemen, a move which availed him nothing because two

:50:46.:50:55.

months later the Houthis attacked the South, forcing him to flee the

:50:56.:50:58.

country altogether. At that moment... With pleasure. Is the

:50:59.:51:05.

Foreign Secretary aware that the ex-president has also been `sking

:51:06.:51:12.

for backing from the Russians as well? The situation in Yemen is

:51:13.:51:18.

potentially disastrous and ht is absolutely vital we stand bx the

:51:19.:51:21.

people of Yemen and the coalition that is trying to sort it ott

:51:22.:51:29.

because the position when President Hardy was forced to flee was

:51:30.:51:34.

potentially disastrous. Yemdn is a country of 26 million peopld, more

:51:35.:51:39.

than half of them under the age of 18, with the long-standing presence

:51:40.:51:46.

of Al-Qaeda in that country, bloodshed and chronic instability.

:51:47.:51:49.

At that moment, there was a clear risk the country would fall into the

:51:50.:51:56.

hands of forces hostile to Saudi Arabia. Of course a country that

:51:57.:52:02.

shares an 800 mile border whth Saudi Arabia, which is vulnerable and

:52:03.:52:06.

porous. It was against that background that the Saudis `nd there

:52:07.:52:10.

are lies to the decision to intervene in Yemen in March 201 . A

:52:11.:52:16.

decision that was not only justified but legally sound. I will ghve way

:52:17.:52:21.

in a moment. President Hadi had formally requested legal action to

:52:22.:52:27.

restore his government whild the Arab League called for all leans and

:52:28.:52:33.

measures to protect the Yemdn and deter Houthi aggression and their

:52:34.:52:40.

fears have been plainly borne out. Mortar bombs and rockets have been

:52:41.:52:44.

frequently fired into Saudi territory. Only two weeks ago the

:52:45.:52:50.

Houthis launched a SCUD missile which flew into Saudi Arabi`,

:52:51.:52:57.

exploding outside a city thd size of Birmingham with a population of 1.2

:52:58.:53:04.

million that Clive 's loves -- that lies close to Mecca. The last time

:53:05.:53:11.

this happened the weapons wdre fired by Saddam Hussein, and conflict has

:53:12.:53:17.

wider regional and global ramifications. Yemen sits bdside the

:53:18.:53:24.

streets running between the Red Sea and the Indian Ocean. At thd same

:53:25.:53:33.

day the SCUD missile was fired, the Houthis launched two missilds at an

:53:34.:53:37.

American destroyer passing through. On earlier occasions they h`ve fired

:53:38.:53:43.

missiles in this vital shipping lanes. Every trading nation in the

:53:44.:53:48.

world, including this one, hs of vital interest in safe pass`ge

:53:49.:53:53.

through those straight. I whll give way. I do thank him and I rdcognise

:53:54.:54:01.

he's laying out his case in a frenzied manner but will he not

:54:02.:54:03.

recognise the argument from this site is not that there was

:54:04.:54:09.

legitimate political and strategic security crisis in Yemen but that

:54:10.:54:13.

the reaction of Saudi Arabi` and the coalition forces is out of `ll

:54:14.:54:16.

proportion to the crisis th`t they were trying to deal with? It was

:54:17.:54:21.

absolutely right to support President Hadi and recognisd the

:54:22.:54:28.

scale of the crisis Yemen f`ces I have been explaining to the House,

:54:29.:54:33.

and I'm glad he accept I'm laying out the case in a frenzied lanner,

:54:34.:54:38.

Britain has important interdsts at stake. It's right we should be

:54:39.:54:42.

discussing the subject this afternoon. I can furthermord assure

:54:43.:54:47.

the House that over the last few months, this country, the UK, has

:54:48.:54:51.

been leading the way in a ststained diplomatic effort to try to settle

:54:52.:54:58.

that conflict. In my first... In just a second. In my first week as

:54:59.:55:03.

Foreign Secretary we convendd a meeting on Yemen at Lancastdr house

:55:04.:55:07.

with my American and Saudi counterparts and others at the

:55:08.:55:11.

United Nations General Asselbly in September, I brought togethdr all

:55:12.:55:14.

the Gulf foreign ministers `long with the UN special envoy. Together

:55:15.:55:22.

with the US and other partndrs, we are doing all we can to support his

:55:23.:55:32.

efforts, the UN special envoy's efforts to reach a political

:55:33.:55:35.

settlement, and there must be won. The only way forward is to get a

:55:36.:55:41.

political settlement. The fhrst step to achieving it must be an dnduring

:55:42.:55:45.

ceasefire which is preciselx what we are calling for and I welcoled the

:55:46.:55:49.

three-day cessation which occurred last week and our efforts now are

:55:50.:55:54.

directed at securing a new cessation of hostilities. I give way with

:55:55.:55:59.

pleasure to the right honourable gentleman, the former chairlan of

:56:00.:56:06.

the home affairs select comlittee. Can I thank the Foreign Secretary

:56:07.:56:12.

for giving way, and commend him for the efforts he has made. Thd

:56:13.:56:16.

critical date was the 16th of October when together with John

:56:17.:56:19.

Kerry and his male shake and the Saudi Foreign Minister, bec`use it

:56:20.:56:23.

took those parties working together, we have a three-day ceasefire. Next

:56:24.:56:28.

Monday the Security Council will be discussing this issue once `gain.

:56:29.:56:33.

What are his instructions to our permanent representative to ensure

:56:34.:56:35.

that three-day ceasefire becomes permanent? I recognise the closeness

:56:36.:56:46.

with which he follows this hssue and his deep personal interest hn the

:56:47.:56:54.

crisis in Yemen and what we are saying is that it is the ro`d map on

:56:55.:56:59.

Yemen that offers the route forward, and that rogue Mike, as the right

:57:00.:57:03.

honourable gentleman knows full well, has been presented to both

:57:04.:57:08.

sides in the conflict, both to the Houthis and to President Hadi and

:57:09.:57:14.

the coalition, and it is up to them now to seize on the opportunity Of

:57:15.:57:17.

course they will not agree `bout every aspect of it, but it hs that

:57:18.:57:24.

road map that offers the wax forward. If I can make a little bit

:57:25.:57:31.

more progress, the Houthis `nd those loyal to the former president say

:57:32.:57:35.

that they want peace. I havd to tell the House that their actions suggest

:57:36.:57:39.

otherwise. They have promisdd to obey UN resolution to 216, to which

:57:40.:57:45.

the honourable gentleman earlier rightly alluded -- 2216. Thdy turned

:57:46.:57:57.

up in Kuwait for the negoti`tions but at the same time they h`ve taken

:57:58.:58:01.

a series of unilateral steps which have gravely damaged they claim to

:58:02.:58:08.

espouse. The Houthis have announced the creation of a supreme political

:58:09.:58:13.

Council, set up a shadow government to rival the legitimate

:58:14.:58:22.

administration of President Hadi and that is not the way forward. Does he

:58:23.:58:28.

accept the issue for many mdmbers on both sides of this House is the

:58:29.:58:33.

conduct of the operation in Yemen by the Saudi coalition and whether or

:58:34.:58:38.

not UK weapons and ammunition have been used in violation of otr legal

:58:39.:58:42.

obligations? Does he considdr we are acting illegally under our

:58:43.:58:45.

obligations under the arms trade treaty?

:58:46.:58:50.

I welcome to the honourable gentleman's point in a second, but

:58:51.:58:59.

if I can conclude my point `bout the Houthis and the Saudi loyalhsts

:59:00.:59:04.

this is important that it bd solved politically. The most important

:59:05.:59:06.

thing they can do is to withdraw their forces from Sanaa by `greement

:59:07.:59:14.

with the UN special envoy. That is where our diplomatic energids are

:59:15.:59:20.

currently engaged. To come to the point the honourable gentlelan has

:59:21.:59:24.

raised and the honourable l`dy also raised, I know this concerns members

:59:25.:59:29.

on both sides of the House `nd throughout the country. That is the

:59:30.:59:35.

concerns about UK defence s`les to Saudi Arabia. Let me say a few words

:59:36.:59:41.

about the general context. Saudi Arabia has been a key stratdgic and

:59:42.:59:45.

defence partner of the UK for decades, and that is of immdnse

:59:46.:59:49.

value to this country, as mdmbers on both sides of this House have

:59:50.:59:56.

already pointed out in this debate. And I must say that in the course of

:59:57.:00:01.

her contribution, the right honourable lady substantially

:00:02.:00:05.

retreated, I thought, from the text of the motion that is beford the

:00:06.:00:12.

House under her name, in thd sense that under questioning from my right

:00:13.:00:15.

honourable friend the member for Aldershot as to whether she would

:00:16.:00:20.

support the suspension of arms sales to Saudi Arabia and to the Saudi

:00:21.:00:27.

Arabia led coalition forces, as is specified in this motion in her

:00:28.:00:32.

name, she refused to say shd would. And I think she was very wise. There

:00:33.:00:43.

is a wide measure therefore of agreement between our partids about

:00:44.:00:55.

the vital importance. She spoke wisely about our export control

:00:56.:01:01.

regimes. And she was right hn what she said. Might I referred the

:01:02.:01:12.

honourable gentleman to the motion itself, which I think would help him

:01:13.:01:19.

if he were to take a moment? Perhaps we can read it together. Thhs House

:01:20.:01:23.

supports efforts to bring about the cessation of hostilities and provide

:01:24.:01:27.

humanitarian relief in Yemen etc, and then it goes on to, and calls on

:01:28.:01:32.

the government to suspend its support for the Saudi Arabi` led

:01:33.:01:35.

coalition forces in Yemen and it has been determined whether thex have

:01:36.:01:39.

been responsible. I hope I have given the honourable gentlelan

:01:40.:01:43.

enough time to read the mothon. I think most fair-minded membdrs of

:01:44.:01:49.

the House will recognise th`t under pressure over whether she would

:01:50.:01:52.

suspend UK arms sales to Satdi Arabia and the huge economic damage

:01:53.:01:56.

that that would entail, she retreated in the course of her

:01:57.:02:03.

remarks. And I think her judgment was correct, because we takd our

:02:04.:02:12.

arms export responsibilities seriously and this country operates

:02:13.:02:16.

one of the toughest control regimes in the world. All export licence

:02:17.:02:24.

applications are assessed on a case-by-case basis against the

:02:25.:02:32.

established criteria, and the most relevant test is whether thdre is a

:02:33.:02:36.

clear risk of those weapons being used in a serious violation of

:02:37.:02:43.

international humanitarian law. We keep this under careful and

:02:44.:02:51.

continuous review. I will ghve way. The Foreign Secretary confused the

:02:52.:02:54.

SNP amendment with the Labotr motion, but why won't he accept the

:02:55.:02:57.

concept of an independent investigation into this matter? What

:02:58.:03:04.

will undermine our case agahnst the Russians, the breach of hum`n rights

:03:05.:03:09.

in Syria? Will it be newspaper columnists praising President

:03:10.:03:13.

Putin's ruthless efficiency, as he did earlier this year, or is it the

:03:14.:03:16.

thought that UK weapons are being used illegally in South Yemdn? What

:03:17.:03:23.

undermines our case more? I am grateful to the honourable lember

:03:24.:03:26.

and we are of course pressing for a full investigation, in parthcular

:03:27.:03:30.

into the attack on the funeral hall on the 8th of October, which shocked

:03:31.:03:36.

so many people around the world If you will forgive me, I will explain

:03:37.:03:40.

our position on that. It was a particularly shocking inciddnt. The

:03:41.:03:47.

following day, I raised the concerns of this country with the Satdi

:03:48.:03:50.

Foreign Minister and pressed for a full investigation. I asked my

:03:51.:03:56.

honourable friend, the membdr for Bournemouth East, to visit rehab to

:03:57.:03:59.

underline the strength of otr feelings. -- to visit Riyadh. An

:04:00.:04:05.

investigation is now taking place and the interim findings were

:04:06.:04:10.

announced on the 15th of thhs month. We look forward to the completion of

:04:11.:04:16.

that investigation and I welcome the public amendment of Saudi Arabia to

:04:17.:04:22.

review their rules of engagdment, their command and control sxstems

:04:23.:04:28.

and to take action for thosd who were responsible for the de`ths at

:04:29.:04:36.

the funeral in Sanaa. Many people want to speak in this debatd.

:04:37.:04:45.

Forgive me. Thus far, Saudi Arabia has approached the matter and those

:04:46.:04:49.

who have had the chance to interrogate the Saudi Foreign

:04:50.:04:53.

Minister in this House will agree that the Saudi government h`s

:04:54.:04:57.

approached this matter with great seriousness and the seriousness it

:04:58.:05:02.

deserves. But they House should be in no doubt that we in this country

:05:03.:05:08.

are monitoring the situation minutely and meticulously and will

:05:09.:05:16.

continue to apply our established criteria for granting licences with

:05:17.:05:20.

fairness and rigour and in accordance with UK law. And to those

:05:21.:05:30.

who say that we should simply disregard those legal procedures, be

:05:31.:05:37.

in no doubt that we would bd vacated space that would rapidly be filled

:05:38.:05:43.

by other Western countries who would happily supply arms with nothing

:05:44.:05:47.

like the same compunctions or criteria or respect for hum`nitarian

:05:48.:05:54.

law. And more importantly, we would at a stroke eliminate this country's

:05:55.:06:04.

positive ability to exercisd our moderating diplomatic and political

:06:05.:06:14.

influence on a crisis where there are massive UK interests at stake. I

:06:15.:06:19.

say to the right honourable lady, who sought in her remarks to draw

:06:20.:06:30.

comparisons which I thought were ill informed and singularly

:06:31.:06:35.

inappropriate analogy betwedn what is happening in Yemen and what is

:06:36.:06:40.

happening in Syria, all wars are horrific. They all involve loss of

:06:41.:06:43.

innocent life, but important distinctions need to be madd with

:06:44.:06:47.

the carnage taking place in Syria, where poisoned gas is being used,

:06:48.:06:51.

barrel bombs are being dropped on a civilian population in a calpaign of

:06:52.:06:57.

barbarism that has cost 400,000 lives and driven 11 million from

:06:58.:07:02.

their homes. You should not let analogy replace analysis in what you

:07:03.:07:08.

say. Britain is at the forefront of the efforts to hold the Ass`d regime

:07:09.:07:14.

in Syria to account and we `re at the forefront of delivering

:07:15.:07:17.

humanitarian aid to the enthre region. And we can be proud of our

:07:18.:07:23.

efforts in this country to `ddress the humanitarian crisis in Xemen.

:07:24.:07:26.

The whole House can be proud of what we are doing. Some 7 million people

:07:27.:07:32.

in Yemen face severe food shortages and last month, my right honourable

:07:33.:07:36.

friend the Secretary of State for International Development hosted an

:07:37.:07:39.

event in New York which raised 100 million for the people of Ydmen on

:07:40.:07:44.

top of the ?100 million sterling contributed by the people of this

:07:45.:07:47.

country. We stand ready in Britain to do what we can to allevi`te the

:07:48.:07:52.

suffering of the innocent, `nd the best service we can perform for them

:07:53.:07:58.

is to help them to secure a peaceful settlement. The government's

:07:59.:08:03.

position is clear. The conflict in Yemen must end. A political

:08:04.:08:06.

agreement between the Yemenh parties must be found. I agree with the

:08:07.:08:12.

right honourable lady. For that we need a durable ceasefire and a

:08:13.:08:16.

return to negotiations. I agree that we should do everything we can to

:08:17.:08:25.

support the UN envoys. But hn the end, it is the Yemenis themselves

:08:26.:08:32.

who must also compromise. Pdace is what the Yemeni people need and

:08:33.:08:35.

deserve, and that can only come from a political and diplomatic solution

:08:36.:08:43.

and in helping to bring abott that political and diplomatic solution, I

:08:44.:08:46.

believe this country once again is helping to show the way. Th`nk you.

:08:47.:08:51.

The original question was as on the order paper since when amendment

:08:52.:08:55.

have been proposed as on thd order paper. The question is that the

:08:56.:09:00.

original words stamped out of the question. Tasmin Ahmed Sheikh. Thank

:09:01.:09:05.

you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I would like to stick to what the motion says.

:09:06.:09:08.

Many points have been made hn this debate upon which we can agree, but

:09:09.:09:12.

it is important to drill down to what the motion is actually asking

:09:13.:09:18.

the House to do. We all agrde that there is a humanitarian cat`strophe

:09:19.:09:21.

unfolding in Yemen. The responsibility we all have hs to

:09:22.:09:25.

help store peace and bring stability to the country and the region. There

:09:26.:09:28.

is no doubt that the crisis continues to grow. By June 2016

:09:29.:09:34.

health facilities in the cotntry reported that nearly 6500 pdople had

:09:35.:09:40.

been killed and more than 30,40 had been injured since March 20 15. This

:09:41.:09:45.

is an average of 113 casualties a day. At least 7.6 million pdople

:09:46.:09:50.

including 3 million women and children are currently suffdring

:09:51.:09:52.

from malnutrition and at le`st million people have been forced to

:09:53.:09:56.

flee their homes. So far according to save the children, 747 children

:09:57.:10:01.

have been killed and more than 100 injured. More than 2.5 millhon

:10:02.:10:08.

displaced and 3.4 million children are out of school. This year, more

:10:09.:10:12.

than 840 children were forchbly recruited as child soldiers. More

:10:13.:10:18.

than 600 health facilities `nd 600 schools remained closed due to

:10:19.:10:21.

conflict related damages. The human stories behind these terrifxing

:10:22.:10:24.

statistics are tragic and horrified, so it is the view of these benches

:10:25.:10:30.

and the Scottish National P`rty that the UK Government has a mor`l

:10:31.:10:35.

responsibility to act now and do all they can to protect lives in Yemen.

:10:36.:10:40.

But in addition to this mor`l responsibility, we should not put

:10:41.:10:44.

human lives at the centre of our decision-making. We believe the UK

:10:45.:10:47.

Government has legal responsibilities in relation to the

:10:48.:10:50.

conflict that it is failing to act on. This is because of the `ctions

:10:51.:10:56.

of the coalition forces, backed by the Saudi Arabian government, who

:10:57.:11:00.

face serious evidence that they have acted in a manner that is at odds

:11:01.:11:05.

with international law. I understand there have been many atrocities

:11:06.:11:08.

carried out against Yemeni civilians by Hutu rebels, who have also

:11:09.:11:11.

shelled civilian homes and have deployed snipers who have t`rgeted

:11:12.:11:16.

women and children. This is evil, wicked and wrong and we don't agree

:11:17.:11:20.

with it. But it is the actions of the Saudi coalition that concerns me

:11:21.:11:24.

most today, because it is hdre that the UK should be able to make

:11:25.:11:27.

decisions and use its infludnce for good. I visited the air operation

:11:28.:11:36.

centre in Riyadh where Brithsh air force personnel are helping the

:11:37.:11:42.

Saudis in their target planning I have also talked to the pilots and

:11:43.:11:47.

the operational planners thdre. They assure me that they are doing

:11:48.:11:53.

everything in their power to stop people dying who are innocent

:11:54.:11:56.

civilians in Yemen and that we should get that point through now. I

:11:57.:12:05.

thank the honourable member for his intervention and I will makd

:12:06.:12:08.

reference to that in a few loments in my speech. I simply cannot

:12:09.:12:13.

understand, though, why the government is so averse to `n

:12:14.:12:16.

independent UN led inquiry hnto what is happening. What is there to hide

:12:17.:12:23.

if there is so much confidence on the government benches as to how we

:12:24.:12:28.

are conducting ourselves? It is clearly the case that Saudi led

:12:29.:12:31.

coalition forces have bombed funerals, weddings and markdts, used

:12:32.:12:35.

banned cluster bombs in poptlated areas and protected sites stch as

:12:36.:12:39.

power stations. They have systematically targeted Yemdn's

:12:40.:12:43.

agricultural economy, as already alluded to by the Shadow Foreign

:12:44.:12:47.

Secretary. Academics have c`lled it a pogrom for the destruction of the

:12:48.:12:50.

rural livelihood of Yemeni citizens. They have killed men and wolen who

:12:51.:12:55.

have been gathered in familx celebrations and they have

:12:56.:12:58.

specifically targeted bombs and missiles on sick and dying hospital

:12:59.:13:01.

patients. And while this is different from the actions of the

:13:02.:13:08.

Houthis forces, the UK does indeed train and support Saudi pilots. We

:13:09.:13:13.

have a true personnel embedded in Saudi Arabian military comm`nd and

:13:14.:13:16.

control rooms giving advice on the selection of targets, and wd sell

:13:17.:13:21.

Saudi Arabia the weapons and bombs they are using jet planes that

:13:22.:13:27.

deliver them. We have a matdrial stake in this disastrous conflict,

:13:28.:13:30.

and so we have a responsibility to the people of Yemen to do the right

:13:31.:13:36.

thing. It is obvious that the is failing. But don't take my word for

:13:37.:13:42.

it. According to the Januarx 20 6 UN panel of exports in Yemen, the air

:13:43.:13:51.

strikes failed to uphold thd principles of proportionality and

:13:52.:13:53.

distinction in any armed attack and have failed to take precauthons to

:13:54.:13:58.

avoid civilian casualties. Hn March of this year, Amnesty International

:13:59.:14:02.

released new research documdnting the further use of cluster lunitions

:14:03.:14:07.

by the Saudi led coalition, including the first reported use of

:14:08.:14:11.

UK manufactured cluster munhtions in any conflict for nearly two decades.

:14:12.:14:20.

Amnesty found ammunition whhch we have discussed previously, which was

:14:21.:14:27.

used by the Saudi led coalition forces. These cluster munithons are

:14:28.:14:31.

only known to be in existing stockpiles in Saudi and UAE and

:14:32.:14:38.

specifically designed for UK supplied Tornado aircraft. Cluster

:14:39.:14:42.

bombs are an illegal weapon banned under international law since 2 08

:14:43.:14:48.

and the UK is a state party to the 2008 Convention on cluster bomb

:14:49.:14:52.

munitions. What does this mdan for the UK? Our legal opinion prepared

:14:53.:15:00.

in December last year declared how it constitutes a clear viol`tion of

:15:01.:15:07.

our arms transfer obligations. I am grateful to the honourable lady for

:15:08.:15:11.

giving way. Would she accept the final delivery of BL775 munhtions

:15:12.:15:26.

was almost 30 years ago. Thdre is absolutely no definitive position

:15:27.:15:29.

nor can any guarantees be ghven that these weapons are not being used.

:15:30.:15:34.

The question has been asked... If I may make some progress I will give

:15:35.:15:43.

way momentarily. These UK arms transfers were detailed,

:15:44.:15:49.

specifically the UK is in breach of the arms trade Treaty article 6 3

:15:50.:15:53.

because the UK Government otght to have had the necessary knowledge

:15:54.:15:57.

that serious violations of international law were taking place.

:15:58.:16:01.

I know the Government doesn't like hearing legal opinion or thd

:16:02.:16:05.

opinions of experts unless ht suits their case but I will continue to

:16:06.:16:10.

make my case. It is within ly right not to take interventions unless I

:16:11.:16:18.

so wish. I will proceed. We all want to get through today's debate,

:16:19.:16:23.

shouting says I cannot hear the honourable lady and that is not

:16:24.:16:30.

helpful. The UK is also in violation... This is a legal

:16:31.:16:37.

opinion, the UK is also in violation of article seven of the arms treaty

:16:38.:16:42.

on the basis of a clear risk that future weapons supplies could be

:16:43.:16:48.

used to commit or facilitatd serious breaches of international l`w. Here

:16:49.:16:51.

is a question, what has this Government done to address `nd

:16:52.:16:56.

investigate the serious and widespread concerns? In its own

:16:57.:17:00.

admission, it has done nothhng. After spending most of 20 shxteenths

:17:01.:17:04.

telling parliament assessments have been conducted and it was confident

:17:05.:17:09.

that no breach of international law had occurred, it changed its story

:17:10.:17:12.

to declare no investigation had been carried out at all and it now

:17:13.:17:16.

appears to have changed its mind again. This House was sold by the

:17:17.:17:23.

then Foreign Secretary in J`nuary 2016, I regularly review thd

:17:24.:17:27.

situation with my own advisdrs and have discussed it on numerots

:17:28.:17:32.

occasions with my counterpart. Our judgment is there is no evidence

:17:33.:17:37.

humanitarian law has been breached but we will continue to revhew the

:17:38.:17:42.

situation regularly. However, the written statement published by the

:17:43.:17:45.

Government this year in Julx stated it was important to know thd

:17:46.:17:48.

Government had not reached ` conclusion as to whether or not the

:17:49.:17:54.

Saudis were guilty of international humanitarian law violations. I

:17:55.:18:02.

quote, this would not be possible. Then last month, the current Foreign

:18:03.:18:05.

Secretary completely contradicted his own ministerial colleagtes again

:18:06.:18:12.

in an interview with Channel 4 News. The Foreign Secretary definhtively

:18:13.:18:16.

stated that after taking evhdence from a very wide range of sources

:18:17.:18:21.

that the UK Government does not believe Saudi forces have broken

:18:22.:18:26.

humanitarian law, despite the fact his own ministers withdrew previous

:18:27.:18:29.

similar statements of Parli`ment. Who are we to believe? The previous

:18:30.:18:36.

and current Foreign Secretary 's who say there has been an investigation

:18:37.:18:39.

or the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State? Do they really believe the

:18:40.:18:49.

assurances given to them by the Saudis? Has this Government really

:18:50.:18:53.

not properly independently investigated these claims? Do we

:18:54.:18:58.

really have no idea at all of the close links with clearly exhst

:18:59.:19:01.

between our government and the Armed Forces, whether our closest ally are

:19:02.:19:07.

using these weapons in this conflict? Because this mattdrs, Mr

:19:08.:19:13.

Deputy Speaker. It matters because when the UK is presented with

:19:14.:19:17.

serious and widespread eviddnce of breaches of international l`w, we

:19:18.:19:20.

cannot take the words of those who are accused of it for grantdd. We

:19:21.:19:23.

agree with the Foreign Affahrs Committee... Yes, I shall. The

:19:24.:19:30.

honourable lady was right to bring this back to the letter of

:19:31.:19:34.

international law, this isste of knowledge and clear risk. Does she

:19:35.:19:38.

not agree with me it is incredulous, not least in light of the ftneral

:19:39.:19:43.

bombing, that there was no clear risk actions would be taken on

:19:44.:19:46.

civilians and does that not get to the heart of the matter? I thank him

:19:47.:19:53.

for his intervention. The three committees of the uniform vhew that

:19:54.:19:58.

we cannot rely on assurances of the Saudis, the Foreign Affairs

:19:59.:20:04.

Committee, international development and select committee, we cannot rely

:20:05.:20:07.

on Saudi assurances and there must be a UN led inquiry. Why is the

:20:08.:20:11.

Government not listening to the select committees of this House We

:20:12.:20:15.

agree with the foreign commhttee whose recent report on the tse of UK

:20:16.:20:20.

manufactured arms in Yemen concluded amongst other things, we do not

:20:21.:20:24.

believe the UK Government c`n meet its obligations under on cltster you

:20:25.:20:31.

munitions by relying on asstrances by the Saudis. We recommend the MoD

:20:32.:20:36.

carry out its own investigation I'm not giving way, Mr Deputy Speaker.

:20:37.:20:46.

We recommend the Ministry of Defence carry out its own investigation into

:20:47.:20:49.

evidence of a UK supplied cluster bomb found in Yemen. They also

:20:50.:20:54.

believe there should be an independent UN led investig`tion.

:20:55.:20:58.

That's the foreign affairs select committee. We also agree with the

:20:59.:21:06.

joint report... You indicatd you want them to give way, you lust take

:21:07.:21:15.

your seat again. We have also heard from the report from intern`tional

:21:16.:21:19.

committees that state we do not believe the UK Government c`n meet

:21:20.:21:24.

its obligations by relying on assurances of the Saudis. I'm not

:21:25.:21:29.

going to give way to the in opposition on the benches bdhind me.

:21:30.:21:36.

In the case of the Yemen, it is clear the arms export licensing

:21:37.:21:41.

regime has not worked. We rdcommend the UK suspend licences for arms

:21:42.:21:45.

exports to Saudi Arabia cap`ble of being used in the Yemen pending the

:21:46.:21:52.

results of a UN led inquiry. Does the honourable member agree with me

:21:53.:21:55.

that one of the critical concerns about cluster bombs is if there are

:21:56.:22:03.

stockpiles, where are they, and have they been destroyed, and thhs is the

:22:04.:22:09.

critical evidence we need. H welcome the honourable member's intdrvention

:22:10.:22:12.

and of course we have seen the tragic reports of these. Arls

:22:13.:22:17.

happened upon by children and the terrible damage they cause, so yes I

:22:18.:22:24.

agree. In case of all of thdse select committees, Mr Deputx

:22:25.:22:32.

Speaker... In the case of these committees, I agree with all of the

:22:33.:22:42.

propositions. They are indedd unified in their view that there

:22:43.:22:46.

must be independent inquiry and we cannot allow the Saudis to give

:22:47.:22:51.

their own assurances. By shder generosity, I will now give way to

:22:52.:23:00.

the honourable member. I want to help the debate. I put the point on

:23:01.:23:06.

cluster munitions directly to the Saudi Foreign Minister when he came,

:23:07.:23:11.

and he said two things. Thex had bought them 30 years ago, they

:23:12.:23:14.

wouldn't be usable, and you couldn't use them because you couldn't

:23:15.:23:18.

integrate them with the moddrn jets so I was really trying to hdlp the

:23:19.:23:22.

honourable lady to inform the debate. I am grateful for the

:23:23.:23:30.

intervention, and I know thd points he has made, indeed questioning the

:23:31.:23:36.

Saudi minister himself, but does he not agree with the views of the

:23:37.:23:39.

select committees of this House that the UK Government cannot medt its

:23:40.:23:45.

obligations under the Convention on cluster munitions? I have ghven way

:23:46.:23:52.

to the honourable member and I will not be giving further way to the

:23:53.:23:58.

honourable member. He has an opportunity to make a speech if he

:23:59.:24:04.

so wishes. I agree with the views of the select committees to whhch I

:24:05.:24:10.

have referred. I wonder if the honourable lady would also `gree

:24:11.:24:14.

with the views of Penny Lawrence, the deputy chief executive Oxfam,

:24:15.:24:17.

who said a few weeks ago thd UK had gone from being an enthusiastic

:24:18.:24:22.

backer of arms trade treaty to one of the most significant violators?

:24:23.:24:28.

Thank you for that intervention and I hope honourable members in the

:24:29.:24:31.

Government are listening to that point being made. This is a very

:24:32.:24:36.

serious issue and it should come as no surprise that people in this

:24:37.:24:40.

debate will speak with such passion and concern for the loss of life and

:24:41.:24:44.

the inability of this Government to hold itself to account, one wonders

:24:45.:24:48.

what the Government is afrahd of. There is a clear and overwhdlming

:24:49.:24:53.

case for halting arms sales to Saudi Arabia now. As the Shadow Foreign

:24:54.:24:58.

Secretary pointed out, that was our amendment in terms of halting sales

:24:59.:25:05.

to Saudi Arabia. It wasn't taken but it remains our position. Unless and

:25:06.:25:09.

until it can be confirmed categorically these weapons are not

:25:10.:25:13.

being used on civilians, we should not be selling arms to Saudh Arabia.

:25:14.:25:17.

There is a moral and legal case for this and the Government shotld act

:25:18.:25:22.

now. We need full disclosurd over whether UK personnel have played any

:25:23.:25:27.

part in the conflict in the Yemen. We support calls for an

:25:28.:25:31.

international inquiry into violations of international law in

:25:32.:25:35.

Yemen. It is the duty of all states to uphold international law, there

:25:36.:25:38.

should be no fear in arguing for that. The UK must immediately

:25:39.:25:49.

suspend all sales to Saudi @rabia. Can I just advise members, we will

:25:50.:25:54.

have to be very brief. The first two members I will be more lenidnt with,

:25:55.:25:58.

up to seven minutes, then after that it will be up to five minutds

:25:59.:26:04.

including interventions. It is essential I follow the honotrable

:26:05.:26:09.

lady for the Scottish National Party because she quoted extensivdly from

:26:10.:26:12.

the Foreign Affairs Committde's report into this. My critiqte of her

:26:13.:26:19.

comments would be that she took the comments about the cluster lunitions

:26:20.:26:23.

incident and then extended ht is considerably more widely. That is

:26:24.:26:28.

really at the heart of the problem with the assessment of this issue.

:26:29.:26:36.

Where the committee felt it was right that there should be

:26:37.:26:38.

independent verification about the cluster bomb incidents, and we did

:26:39.:26:48.

say there should be the United Nations led investigation of the

:26:49.:26:51.

alleged violations by all p`rties to the conflict being necessarx to

:26:52.:26:56.

supplement the internal investigations of the Saudi led

:26:57.:27:02.

coalition, it is a standard factor of normal practice in these areas

:27:03.:27:09.

that the Saudis should be ghven the opportunity to investigate these

:27:10.:27:14.

instances in the first inst`nce What we said in a report was we

:27:15.:27:18.

agree with the Government it is appropriate for the Saudi ldd

:27:19.:27:24.

coalition to investigate thdse in the first instance. We went on to

:27:25.:27:32.

look at the detail, and said further progress is needed to make sure the

:27:33.:27:36.

jihad is transparent and publishes its investigations in a timdly

:27:37.:27:41.

manner and we recommend the UK Government offer its support so they

:27:42.:27:47.

can meet these ends. In the rather limited time available, I w`nt to

:27:48.:27:52.

briefly referred to the alldgations of breaches of international

:27:53.:27:57.

humanitarian law. We have ilposed on ourselves through the law the

:27:58.:28:01.

toughest set of conditions `round arms licence conditions, and the

:28:02.:28:08.

proper place for those laws to be tested is in a court. That hs what

:28:09.:28:15.

is going to happen. But widdr than that, both in our interests in the

:28:16.:28:19.

Yemen and in the Gulf altogdther, the Government is charged whth the

:28:20.:28:25.

responsibility to promote the wider national interest and I would argue

:28:26.:28:29.

that wider international interest and the wider promotion of our

:28:30.:28:34.

values. No one would disagrde that of course there are challenges in

:28:35.:28:39.

this area, and the Yemen conflict is an immensely difficult challenge on

:28:40.:28:42.

a number of levels. But as the Foreign Secretary said, this

:28:43.:28:47.

conflict didn't come out of nowhere. We have to actually go to the issue

:28:48.:28:55.

of intent, and I would take... Would disagree with the honourabld lady,

:28:56.:28:59.

where she said the Saudis wdre targeting women and children in her

:29:00.:29:01.

speeches. The judgment we have to makd is

:29:02.:29:16.

whether the Saudi led coalition in executing the unanimously p`ssed

:29:17.:29:19.

United Nations Security Council resolution, in trying to restore

:29:20.:29:23.

some kind of order to the rdcognised authority in the Yemen, of whether

:29:24.:29:27.

or not they try to do this with the of intentions. What is the Saudi

:29:28.:29:34.

interest in committing breaches of international humanitarian law, in

:29:35.:29:39.

progressing a difficult milhtary campaign in the most unbelidvably

:29:40.:29:47.

difficult geographic circumstances, when they are a relatively hmmature

:29:48.:29:51.

coalition? They have never done this before, so what kind of support

:29:52.:29:56.

should we be thinking about giving our ally in picking up its

:29:57.:29:58.

responsibility for the delivery of regional security, because hf they

:29:59.:30:03.

weren't doing it, where would the responsibility sit? I will give way.

:30:04.:30:11.

He talked about intent, but does he not accept that arms trade law is

:30:12.:30:14.

not based on intent, it is based on the risk of violations of

:30:15.:30:19.

international humanitarian law? He supports, like me, an indepdndent

:30:20.:30:26.

inquiry. If it found out th`t IHL had been violated, what acthon would

:30:27.:30:31.

he support? This is a matter for the courts. It is a matter of l`w. We

:30:32.:30:46.

have to come to policy judglents. I would argue that it is in otr

:30:47.:30:49.

interests as far as the conduct of this operation in the Yemen is

:30:50.:30:53.

concerned, to give as much support as possible to the Saudi co`lition,

:30:54.:30:59.

who are doing it on our beh`lf, in order for them to conduct this

:31:00.:31:04.

operation within the realms of international humanitarian law and

:31:05.:31:09.

to progress it successfully. Is that ain't going to be achieved by us

:31:10.:31:15.

pulling all support from thdm as the opposition motion said, or hs it

:31:16.:31:21.

going to be assisted by suspending arms exports, as the Scottish

:31:22.:31:29.

national amendment says? It is clear to me that either of those `ctions

:31:30.:31:34.

would be seriously damaging to the sensible conduct a proper conduct of

:31:35.:31:39.

operations in the Yemen, by making it more difficult for the S`udi

:31:40.:31:47.

coalition to execute those operations with the advice `nd

:31:48.:31:51.

support of the UK and the United States. But I want to put this in a

:31:52.:31:59.

wider context, given the lilitation of time, and that is about our wider

:32:00.:32:06.

relationship with Saudi Arabia. What lessons will the Saudis takd if in

:32:07.:32:10.

these circumstances, we pre-emptively, in advance of any

:32:11.:32:16.

legal challenge to the basis of their licensing regime, we pull

:32:17.:32:22.

support from Saudi Arabia, where they are trying, whether thdy are

:32:23.:32:25.

doing it under international humanitarian law or not will be

:32:26.:32:28.

tested in the courts, I belheve their intent is to make surd they

:32:29.:32:33.

progress this operation within international humanitarian law, but

:32:34.:32:37.

what message would to Saudi Arabia and what is happening in Satdi

:32:38.:32:42.

Arabia today? What direction is this state going in? We have had a long

:32:43.:32:45.

term strategic relationship with Saudi Arabia. I would invitd members

:32:46.:32:51.

to examine what is happening in Saudi Arabia, the Project 2030, to

:32:52.:33:00.

look at the people who are now in charge in Saudi Arabia. Anyone who

:33:01.:33:07.

listens to the -- listened to their Foreign Minister when he cale to the

:33:08.:33:12.

House, and he came twice recently, will see what an impressive Foreign

:33:13.:33:20.

Minister he years. -- he is. The Deputy Crown Prince, who is leading

:33:21.:33:24.

economic reform in Saudi Ar`bia has extremely impressive technocrats in

:33:25.:33:28.

charge of that process, and it is all part of a wider modernisation

:33:29.:33:33.

process in Saudi Arabia not just on the economy, but socially as well.

:33:34.:33:39.

It is absolutely in our intdrest that this direction in Saudh Arabia

:33:40.:33:51.

is supported. Sorry. You ard on eight minutes. When you havd no

:33:52.:33:57.

minutes to speak of... You `re not giving way? I thank the chahrman for

:33:58.:34:06.

giving way. Can I ask him, what is the alternative to the Saudh royal

:34:07.:34:10.

family as a government? Is ht democracy or an extreme Isl`mist

:34:11.:34:16.

government? I think it is the latter, so this country and the West

:34:17.:34:19.

generally must deal with thhs government, whether we like it or

:34:20.:34:24.

not. We have seen the consepuences of the uncontrolled loss of

:34:25.:34:29.

governance in the region, and it is pretty ugly. The truth is that the

:34:30.:34:33.

current leadership in Saudi Arabia is probably taking Saudi Ar`bia in a

:34:34.:34:38.

general direction that we c`n all approve of. They have huge

:34:39.:34:44.

challenges in doing that, btt they are the most important country in

:34:45.:34:49.

the Gulf and I believe we should try to be alongside them in that

:34:50.:34:54.

difficult journey, rather than making it more difficult. If they

:34:55.:34:57.

have to turn elsewhere for support, they will not be getting

:34:58.:35:00.

laser-guided bombs, they will be getting weapons that will not enable

:35:01.:35:04.

them to carry out the operations in Yemen in the way they are also the

:35:05.:35:08.

benefit of our advice. I'm `ware that I have run out of time you

:35:09.:35:14.

allocated me, Mr Deputy Spe`ker Keith Vaz. Although my heart is

:35:15.:35:18.

breaking looking at the violence and the humanitarian catastrophd of

:35:19.:35:23.

Yemen, I am proud of this p`rliament that in the last seven days, we have

:35:24.:35:26.

discussed Yemen twice and there are 16 members of this House who are

:35:27.:35:32.

here today. I want to thank the Shadow Foreign Secretary and the

:35:33.:35:34.

Shadow International Development Secretary for agreeing to h`ve this

:35:35.:35:37.

debate, and the Foreign Secretary for his pivotal role in enstring

:35:38.:35:42.

that we got a ceasefire when he had the meeting with John Kerry and the

:35:43.:35:47.

Saudi Arabian Foreign Minister on the 16th of October. And to the

:35:48.:35:53.

shadow Secretary of State for the Scottish National Party, for the way

:35:54.:35:57.

in which she has raised this issue and her party has raised thhs issue

:35:58.:36:00.

over a number of months since the last election. I want to concentrate

:36:01.:36:08.

on the ceasefire and the UN resolution that I hope will come on

:36:09.:36:14.

Monday. The ceasefire that was announced last week lasted only 72

:36:15.:36:18.

hours. Fighting and bombings have swiftly returned, at an intdnsity

:36:19.:36:23.

identical to that scene before the brief cessation of hostilithes. The

:36:24.:36:28.

ceasefire had allowed food `nd humanitarian supplies to re`ch areas

:36:29.:36:32.

which had otherwise been colpletely inaccessible. The special envoy

:36:33.:36:39.

begged both sides for an extension to the ceasefire. Violations by both

:36:40.:36:45.

sides rendered these efforts fruitless. Where are now at a

:36:46.:36:51.

critical stage in the history of Yemen, and it is, as we havd said so

:36:52.:36:58.

many times before, but more than at any other time before, on the brink

:36:59.:37:04.

of disaster. That is why our concern in this House should be to bring

:37:05.:37:08.

about a permanent ceasefire in Yemen. That is why all our dfforts

:37:09.:37:13.

should concentrate on that critical UN meeting that will take place on

:37:14.:37:20.

Monday in New York. I am sorry that we are going to divide on this

:37:21.:37:23.

subject this evening. I put forward an amendment and I hoped it would be

:37:24.:37:28.

called, but if only the House as one could vote in favour of peace in

:37:29.:37:35.

Yemen, I would be happy. I give way to the honourable gentleman who has

:37:36.:37:37.

been to Yemen and has learndd Arabic when he stayed there. I thank the

:37:38.:37:42.

honourable member for Leicester East for his point. Could I urge members

:37:43.:37:50.

of this House and remind thd speaker of the various elements of the

:37:51.:37:55.

combat arms in Yemen? We ard talking about Saudi Arabia in this debate,

:37:56.:37:58.

and really, the Houthis are being backed by Iran. Their two shdes and

:37:59.:38:08.

two foreign here. That is rhght It is much more complicated and there

:38:09.:38:11.

are many sides to this. Anyone who has dealt with Yemen, he has lived

:38:12.:38:17.

there for a while, will know that the travel system is extremdly

:38:18.:38:22.

important and it is important not to make it simplistic -- the tribal

:38:23.:38:26.

system. But what is clear is the scorecard of shame, the 21.2 million

:38:27.:38:31.

people who require urgent humanitarian assistance, 9.8 million

:38:32.:38:36.

of whom are children. Over 00,0 0 people killed in the last 18 months,

:38:37.:38:44.

and 14.1 million at risk of hunger, equivalent to the combined

:38:45.:38:48.

populations of London, Birmhngham and Glasgow. Although I welcome what

:38:49.:38:53.

the government has done and International Development Sdcretary

:38:54.:38:55.

in ensuring that more money has been pledged to Yemen, it is critical

:38:56.:39:02.

that money is used for supplies and those supplies have to reach the

:39:03.:39:05.

people who are hungry. Otherwise, all the money we can raise will not

:39:06.:39:10.

be enough to deal with this crisis. Oxfam's chief executive, who

:39:11.:39:14.

addressed the all-party grotp last week, called it Syria withott

:39:15.:39:19.

cameras. I want to thank thd honourable lady, the member for

:39:20.:39:23.

Portsmouth South, who was also born in Aden, as I was, the membdr for

:39:24.:39:28.

Charnwood, another officer of the group and the member for Gl`sgow

:39:29.:39:31.

Central for all the work thdy have done. On Monday, the honour`ble

:39:32.:39:36.

member for Beckenham, who is not here at this moment, said to the

:39:37.:39:39.

Prime Minister, when 7000 pdople were killed in 1995 in Srebrenica,

:39:40.:39:45.

the international community acted. That is why it is so import`nt that

:39:46.:39:50.

we should not just debate these motions today, but also follow

:39:51.:39:56.

through with a resolution that is taken on board by the whole of the

:39:57.:40:01.

United Nations. Despite the incredible work of Islamic relief,

:40:02.:40:07.

Oxfam, Unicef, MSF and many others, they simply can't get the ahd in. I

:40:08.:40:12.

hope that when the minister comes to wind up, the member for Bournemouth

:40:13.:40:16.

East, who has engaged fully with the all-party group, that he will tell

:40:17.:40:20.

us more about what can be done to ensure that this aid gets through

:40:21.:40:25.

and I think he will say that unless we get the ceasefire, peopld will

:40:26.:40:29.

starve. I commend the work of the international development committee

:40:30.:40:32.

on all they have done to ensure that this occurs. The issue of

:40:33.:40:38.

investigations has been raised. It is important that we get thdse

:40:39.:40:41.

investigations, of course. But we need to have the ceasefire. Once we

:40:42.:40:47.

have the ceasefire, any investigation which deals whth

:40:48.:40:51.

violations on all sides need to be addressed, as we need to address the

:40:52.:40:55.

issue of what arms are being used. However, at the moment, what

:40:56.:41:03.

concerns me and what should concern the house is what will happdn on

:41:04.:41:08.

Monday. We were told that Britain holds all the pens as far as Yemen

:41:09.:41:14.

is concerned in the debate that I held last week. That is why the

:41:15.:41:17.

instruction that the Foreign Secretary gives to our perm`nent

:41:18.:41:22.

representative, the excellent Matthew Rycroft, who is leading

:41:23.:41:25.

force in New York, will be so critical. I wish the Foreign

:41:26.:41:30.

Secretary could go to New York on Monday to argue the case, btt I am

:41:31.:41:37.

not here to manage his diarx. I think the presence of the British

:41:38.:41:40.

Foreign Secretary at the Unhted Nations on Monday will be critically

:41:41.:41:45.

important. Members will raise all kinds of issues, all of thel

:41:46.:41:50.

important, but unless we have that permanent ceasefire, this country

:41:51.:41:55.

will literally bleed to death while we discussed these issues. So I beg

:41:56.:42:00.

everyone involved in this process to please move together in a united

:42:01.:42:09.

Way, without dividing opinion, concentrating on that one critical

:42:10.:42:12.

issue, getting the United N`tions to back a permanent ceasefire. Then the

:42:13.:42:17.

people of Yemen can actuallx survive. Just to remind members up

:42:18.:42:25.

to five minutes. Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I apologise to the

:42:26.:42:30.

right honourable lady for not being in the chamber at the beginning of

:42:31.:42:34.

her remarks. I am grateful to get an opportunity to speak. Withott

:42:35.:42:38.

covering all the ground, because there is so much to talk about, I

:42:39.:42:42.

would like to say a few things. Firstly, I speak with the experience

:42:43.:42:47.

of a minister who has been to Yemen and understands a bit about it. I

:42:48.:42:52.

also had the responsibility of signing off arms control

:42:53.:42:54.

applications in the Foreign Commonwealth Office. And I speak as

:42:55.:42:59.

someone who has got it on occasions both wrong and right. Firstly, there

:43:00.:43:03.

are some difficult choices to make in the Foreign Commonwealth Office

:43:04.:43:11.

in dealing with any of thesd issues. Following the typically excdllent

:43:12.:43:13.

speech on the subject by thd right honourable gentleman the melber for

:43:14.:43:18.

Leicester East, he got the focus right. It is understandable that we

:43:19.:43:23.

have the motion before us and the sentiments behind it are understood,

:43:24.:43:26.

but is it the most signific`nt thing at the moment? Probably not, because

:43:27.:43:30.

it is ending the conflict which the right honourable gentleman focused

:43:31.:43:34.

upon. And in getting to the end of the conflict, there are somd

:43:35.:43:38.

difficult choices to be madd. The balance between our values `nd the

:43:39.:43:43.

practicalities of the issues surrounding positions in thd Middle

:43:44.:43:46.

East have never been more fhnely balanced or more difficult.

:43:47.:43:58.

My right honourable friend, the Foreign Secretary, has set out well

:43:59.:44:02.

the background in understanding wherein the Yemen is today. Two

:44:03.:44:06.

things about the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia might be usefully known,

:44:07.:44:12.

firstly, as the right honourable member said, Yemen has been in a

:44:13.:44:15.

state for a long time, it w`s the king of Saudi Arabia which picked up

:44:16.:44:19.

the Yemen, send money over ` lengthy period of time, friends of Xemen

:44:20.:44:26.

process, started by the Labour government, when it was in office,

:44:27.:44:30.

put lots of money into Yemen, the money did not get through to people

:44:31.:44:33.

because of the actions of Lxnn president, a constant factor in the

:44:34.:44:39.

difficulties created in the region. -- because of the actions of the the

:44:40.:44:45.

then president. The openness to which the Foreign Minister `ddressed

:44:46.:44:49.

the issue of the dreadful bombing attack and the funeral recently

:44:50.:44:55.

that is something relativelx new. It does indicate, as my honour`ble

:44:56.:44:59.

friend, the member for Reig`te, said, a difference of appro`ch in

:45:00.:45:02.

Saudi Arabia which is of huge significance in the region. And so

:45:03.:45:08.

bearing that in mind we comd to what we are trying to say and do today.

:45:09.:45:13.

The spokesman for the opposhtion has said that it was our values that

:45:14.:45:17.

would come forward from what the house did. With all respect, not

:45:18.:45:23.

necessarily so. It is not jtst our interpretation of our values that is

:45:24.:45:27.

important, it is other people's interpretation of our values that is

:45:28.:45:30.

important as well and I know from tough experience that somethmes what

:45:31.:45:35.

we say and do here, with thd best of intentions, is not always

:45:36.:45:36.

What is most important here is that in a region where friendships have

:45:37.:45:55.

been changed in recent years, most notably, some of the actions of the

:45:56.:45:59.

United States, leaving people wondering whose side they wdre on,

:46:00.:46:03.

who is going to be a balancd to the regional interest that are going on,

:46:04.:46:08.

for the United Kingdom to bd seen to make a similar judgment at this time

:46:09.:46:11.

would undermine the efforts being made for peace. And I quote from the

:46:12.:46:21.

letter which the ambassador to the Yemen has sent to the House of

:46:22.:46:24.

Commons members before todax's debate he said, in relation to the

:46:25.:46:30.

peace efforts that have been made: we may be persuaded to engage

:46:31.:46:34.

seriously in peace talks, which is the obvious thing that we all want,

:46:35.:46:39.

but they hope instead to we`ken the coalition by undermining relations

:46:40.:46:43.

with the Western allies. Th`t is what I'm wittingly we would fall

:46:44.:46:47.

into. I give way to the honourable lady. -- that is what I'm whttingly

:46:48.:46:59.

-- unwittingly. We are undermining the good work by also selling bombs,

:47:00.:47:03.

which are landing on the he`ds of people in Yemen. I'm grateftl to the

:47:04.:47:08.

honourable lady for intervention with that but the great work we are

:47:09.:47:11.

doing in the manner Terry and relief, is expected, but thd

:47:12.:47:18.

complexity of who is supported in a situation which is not of the

:47:19.:47:23.

government of Yemen's own m`king, the undermining of a constitutional

:47:24.:47:28.

process, absolutely vital to the future of Yemen. I have been to both

:47:29.:47:32.

the north and the south, I went to Aidan, met the leaders, the

:47:33.:47:37.

constitutional process was getting somewhere and it was undermhned by

:47:38.:47:41.

the Huti attacks. It is onlx when that is stopped, that the

:47:42.:47:47.

constitutional talks can continue, and the efforts for peace c`n be

:47:48.:47:51.

delivered, because that is what is most important for the people who

:47:52.:47:54.

are suffering in Yemen, and with the best will in the world, this action

:47:55.:47:58.

by the United Kingdom would not achieve anything on the grotnd, it

:47:59.:48:03.

might make the process more difficult. We want to see a

:48:04.:48:07.

ceasefire as quickly as possible but I do not think that by withdrawing

:48:08.:48:11.

support from one of this parties that can make it happen and giving

:48:12.:48:16.

false hope to others, to continue the conflict, that we would be doing

:48:17.:48:20.

our best for the people of Xemen. I very much appreciate the tile to

:48:21.:48:23.

speech but also some of the difficult judgments that my right

:48:24.:48:27.

honourable friends must makd, because sometimes it is not easy to

:48:28.:48:32.

get the balance right. On this occasion, my right honourable friend

:48:33.:48:34.

and above all, my honourabld friend for Bournemouth East, are doing the

:48:35.:48:38.

very best they can for the people of Yemen and we should back thdm up.

:48:39.:48:42.

Unfortunately, because of pdople giving way, we need to go to war

:48:43.:48:49.

minutes. Can I start by sayhng this, is it right that we support

:48:50.:48:53.

legitimately elected and UN backed government of Yemen. -- bec`use of

:48:54.:48:57.

people giving way, we need to go to four minutes. It is also important

:48:58.:49:01.

that we work towards this cdasefire tirelessly. Without that, wd are not

:49:02.:49:06.

going to get in human terrahn aid and we will not get the settlement

:49:07.:49:10.

forward. I can support the resolution put forward tonight,

:49:11.:49:14.

because again, my right Dub`i honourable friend, the membdr for

:49:15.:49:20.

Ealing South and Finsbury is concentrating on only part of the

:49:21.:49:25.

story. Condemning the Saudi actions in Yemen, but completely ignoring

:49:26.:49:31.

what is happening in terms of the Iranians backed weapons that are

:49:32.:49:38.

going into Yemen, too few whll and actually put forward and help

:49:39.:49:43.

Iranians destabilisation of the region. -- fuel. War is a horrible

:49:44.:49:48.

thing, and if there are violations on either side, then I would say

:49:49.:49:54.

that they must be investigated, my honourable friend, the membdr for

:49:55.:49:58.

Liverpool West Derby, said, we should investigate all sides. The

:49:59.:50:07.

Iranians are fuelling this, with millions of pounds worth of weapons.

:50:08.:50:13.

That is not the sign of a government or a Rochina which wants a peaceful

:50:14.:50:21.

settlement to go forward. In terms of involvement with the peace

:50:22.:50:26.

process, there is evidence they have undermined the ceasefire whhch was

:50:27.:50:32.

in action in the last few d`ys. That is not helpful in this procdss. Arms

:50:33.:50:36.

sales, I accept there is people in this house, who have a moral

:50:37.:50:43.

position against manufacturd and export of arms. Do I respect them?

:50:44.:50:49.

Yes, I do not agree with thdm, but I do take the view that we should be

:50:50.:50:53.

able to manufacture weapons and individual countries should be

:50:54.:50:57.

allowed, where possible, to protect themselves. I am also proud that the

:50:58.:51:02.

legislation placed on arms dxports was one of the achievements of the

:51:03.:51:05.

last Labour government. The 200 export control Arms control Bill,

:51:06.:51:13.

act as it became, was the fhrst piece of legislation 50 years in the

:51:14.:51:16.

statute books, we have a robust system in this country and we should

:51:17.:51:19.

not shy away from it. All I would say to the honourable member is if

:51:20.:51:26.

you come and state things, look at them in detail. I went to speak with

:51:27.:51:29.

the Saudi minister when he came here, I put the question to him

:51:30.:51:34.

about munitions. Can I also say don't just take his word for it it

:51:35.:51:38.

is my own experience, the idea that he would use a cluster munitions, 30

:51:39.:51:42.

years old, how would you deliver it? Should those things be investigated?

:51:43.:51:47.

I agree that they should but don't repeat them as fact when actually

:51:48.:51:50.

there is evidence to show that these things could possibly be not used.

:51:51.:51:57.

This is a complex situation, I don't think this resolution does `nything

:51:58.:52:00.

to help support the peace process, which I think we all want, `nd I

:52:01.:52:05.

agree with the honourable mdmber for north-east Bedford when he says a

:52:06.:52:08.

united voice in this chamber tonight would be the best thing that we

:52:09.:52:12.

could achieve. Not just in terms of peace in Yemen, but also making sure

:52:13.:52:17.

that we support those allies that we have in the region, which are

:52:18.:52:21.

important not just to stability in that part of the world but `lso in

:52:22.:52:27.

turn preventing terrorism and threats elsewhere. Mr Deputx

:52:28.:52:30.

Speaker, while I do not reg`rd myself as an expert on Yemen,

:52:31.:52:35.

nevertheless I have had a lot of interaction with the region both as

:52:36.:52:38.

a banker and a member of thd house, and former defence minister

:52:39.:52:42.

responsible for defence exports and as a member of -- as the honourable

:52:43.:52:47.

member for all the shock, I represent members of BAE Systems,

:52:48.:52:51.

the fourth-largest defence company in the world. I agree with

:52:52.:52:56.

everything that has been sahd. The United Kingdom has enjoyed ` very

:52:57.:53:02.

long and neatly beneficial relationship with the Kingdom of

:53:03.:53:06.

Saudi Arabia, notwithstanding occasional differences betwden us

:53:07.:53:09.

but that is to be found in `ny relationship. What we have to do

:53:10.:53:13.

here is understand the biggdr picture, which is that the Kingdom

:53:14.:53:17.

is a key player in a region currant facing massive challenges, not least

:53:18.:53:23.

from Iran. In the case of Ydmen a narrow coalition to take action

:53:24.:53:28.

against Houthi rebels following the ousting of the president, bdlieve to

:53:29.:53:33.

be supported by Iran. The coalition is operating under a United Nations

:53:34.:53:37.

Security Council resolution, two to 216, composed of a formidable array

:53:38.:53:43.

of Harrods says: Morocco, Egypt Sudan, Jordan, Kuwait, UAE, Qatar,

:53:44.:53:49.

Bahrain, not insignificant our group in there. The collision is `lso

:53:50.:53:54.

taking action against Daesh and Al-Qaeda, in the lid and Shdila as

:53:55.:53:59.

demanded by my honourable friend, the chairman of the Foreign Affairs

:54:00.:54:05.

Committee, the for Reigate, and when she was a shadow foreign affairs

:54:06.:54:09.

minister who said that the TK needs to work with the Saudis to hnsure

:54:10.:54:12.

that we stop the flow of funding and support to / Daesh. The Saudi should

:54:13.:54:20.

be commended for what they `re doing, not criticised. -- honourable

:54:21.:54:26.

member for Reigate. It is the Houthis who have a long record of

:54:27.:54:30.

atrocities including using civilians as human shields, preventing aid

:54:31.:54:37.

groups from getting medical supplies through, and using child soldiers.

:54:38.:54:39.

Honourable member should also note that the flag of the Houthis raids

:54:40.:54:45.

as follows: death to Americ`, death to Israel, curse on the jurx is

:54:46.:54:51.

victory to Islam, God is grdat. A motto partially modelled on

:54:52.:54:54.

revolutionary Iran, and almost word for word translation of the slogan

:54:55.:55:00.

of Ayatollah Khamenei. -- Jdwish. We should be doing everything we can to

:55:01.:55:05.

support our allies in dealing with these disreputable people. What

:55:06.:55:08.

about the criticism of Saudh Arabia? There was an attack on the 8th of

:55:09.:55:12.

October on a funeral party, which tragically killed some 140 hnnocent

:55:13.:55:16.

people, but the Saudis in their joint incident assessment tdam,

:55:17.:55:21.

representatives from UAE, c`n wait, Bahrain and the kingdom itsdlf,

:55:22.:55:26.

undertook an immediate enquhry which establish their operation sdt in

:55:27.:55:29.

Yemen directed at close support missions to target the location

:55:30.:55:33.

without a 10-year proof frol the coalition demand to support the

:55:34.:55:36.

legitimacy and without following coalition command precautionary

:55:37.:55:38.

measures to ensure that the location was not a civilian one. The team

:55:39.:55:43.

concluded that action should be taken against those found to be

:55:44.:55:48.

responsible. We all make mistakes, the Americans are not withott

:55:49.:55:55.

criticism in this manner, they attacked a hospital, manned by

:55:56.:55:59.

M decins Sans Fronti res. This digest that defence exports should

:56:00.:56:04.

be blocked is at best SNP grandstanding and at worst, a kick

:56:05.:56:08.

committee to an important ally, and doing a disservice to hundrdds of

:56:09.:56:11.

highly skilled workers at plants in Scotland which supply equiplent to

:56:12.:56:17.

the BAE lead programme of export, but I suspect they don't care for

:56:18.:56:24.

implement prospects. Salaam has made a contribution to the United

:56:25.:56:32.

Kingdom, generating prosperhty. . Order! I'm sad to say that H will be

:56:33.:56:39.

unable to back the motion mx honourable friend has introduced

:56:40.:56:42.

today, I think it is the first time we have had an opposition D`y motion

:56:43.:56:45.

that I have not been supporting and God knows I have backed somd

:56:46.:56:50.

rubbish... LAUGHTER Only joking! LAUGHTER

:56:51.:56:54.

I have to say, I'm only jokhng. . There is much in this motion that I

:56:55.:57:02.

agree with, but I do feel that it is ultimately undermined by thd

:57:03.:57:05.

abandonment of our commitment to the UN Security Council resoluthon.

:57:06.:57:09.

Whilst it may make us feel better, it is not what will make thd

:57:10.:57:13.

situation on the ground better. The situation in Yemen is appalling and

:57:14.:57:18.

is quickly becoming the gre`test team in a tearing challenge stalking

:57:19.:57:20.

the planet in what is an incredibly difficult time. My honourable friend

:57:21.:57:26.

spoke movingly about the sc`le of the human catastrophe that dxists in

:57:27.:57:29.

Yemen, and I agree with my honourable friend from Leicdster

:57:30.:57:33.

East, seeking to divide the house on this, legitimate concerns about the

:57:34.:57:37.

actions of Saudi Arabia in Xemen, it'll doubt in my mind that the

:57:38.:57:41.

recent bombing of a funeral in Yemen's capital constitutes a war

:57:42.:57:44.

crime, it was an appalling `ct, sickening us all, and I am pleased

:57:45.:57:48.

the Saudis have accepted culpability and an investigation into this

:57:49.:57:54.

incident is ongoing. I hope as the investigation continues, as response

:57:55.:57:57.

-- those responsible for thd awful incident will be brought to justice

:57:58.:58:01.

before an international crilinal court. Other allegations ag`inst the

:58:02.:58:04.

Saudi should concern us all, my honourable friend from Islington

:58:05.:58:07.

south referred to the reports of deliberate strikes against

:58:08.:58:12.

infrastructure and agriculttre. The bombing of recently besieged areas

:58:13.:58:14.

in which aid is being provided. For that reason I support the c`ll for

:58:15.:58:17.

an independent enquiry to establish what has been done, by whom and on

:58:18.:58:23.

whose orders. I believe that my honourable friend is right to push

:58:24.:58:26.

the government and the international community to do more to enstre there

:58:27.:58:30.

is clarity on this, and I think we should be attending to use our

:58:31.:58:33.

influence to ensure that a TN sanctioned legitimate campahgn in

:58:34.:58:37.

Yemen is not undermined by inexcusable actions. But I have to

:58:38.:58:41.

say that while she poses important questions, I was not certain what it

:58:42.:58:45.

was that we were actually s`ying was the support that we were intending

:58:46.:58:48.

to withdraw. It clearly isn't Arms exports.

:58:49.:58:54.

I was not sure what I was a supporter. It is also true that our

:58:55.:59:00.

relationship with Saudi is not an easy one, but we do wield some

:59:01.:59:04.

influence and our security hs enhanced by this relationshhp. The

:59:05.:59:10.

kingdom of Saudi Arabia was once a secretive suspicious and insular

:59:11.:59:14.

country now sent its ministdrs here to be scrutinised by MPs in the

:59:15.:59:18.

Houses of Parliament. I also refer to the significant economic interest

:59:19.:59:21.

we have in continuing audit of relationship with the Saudis, they

:59:22.:59:26.

have been used for allies to our own security. For years, the West has

:59:27.:59:30.

asked Saudi Arabia to take on more responsibility for what happened in

:59:31.:59:34.

the region and now they are. None of this means that we should ignore or

:59:35.:59:39.

underplay the significance of infractions of international human

:59:40.:59:41.

Italian law but it means we must think very carefully before

:59:42.:59:45.

isolating them in the way that this motion suggests. -- humanit`rian

:59:46.:59:56.

law. The booties are a terrorist organisation, unapologetic hn the

:59:57.:00:01.

slaughtering of the civilians and the honourable member from @ldershot

:00:02.:00:06.

refers to the phrase inscribed which says everything we need to know

:00:07.:00:09.

about the true motives of that organisation. It is for this reason

:00:10.:00:16.

that enable 2015 the UN Sectrity Council adopted UN Security Council

:00:17.:00:21.

resolution 2216 mandating mhlitary action and I think it would be a

:00:22.:00:24.

huge mistake for us to turn away from that. Mr Deputy Speaker as

:00:25.:00:29.

everyone in this house is aware thousands of Yemeni children and

:00:30.:00:34.

women speak fitfully tonight never knowing what horrors tomorrow might

:00:35.:00:37.

bring. Now is not the time to throw away what influence he might have,

:00:38.:00:41.

it is the time to use it to create a safer Middle East. I see thd member

:00:42.:00:48.

from Penrith and the borders on the front bench and I welcome the

:00:49.:00:51.

commitment to rescuing the human Italian situation in the Yelen and

:00:52.:00:55.

has made the UK the fourth-largest honour this financial year by

:00:56.:00:59.

committing ?150 million to provide supplies. These supplies do nothing

:01:00.:01:05.

to update arguably the more serious yet still intertwined threat to the

:01:06.:01:09.

humanitarian situation, the war crimes and human rights abuses of

:01:10.:01:14.

which the evidence speaks volumes. Such evidence has implicated all

:01:15.:01:17.

parties involved in the conflict in abuses of human rights. Let me be

:01:18.:01:24.

clear, Mr Speaker, even if xou are a legitimate government in exhle

:01:25.:01:26.

struggling to reclaim your country from aggressors or a foreign states

:01:27.:01:30.

charged with assisting in this recovery or even if you havd the

:01:31.:01:34.

backing of the United Nations itself you are never exonerated from the

:01:35.:01:37.

duties of upholding human rhghts. Human rights abuses are alw`ys

:01:38.:01:42.

unacceptable in legal and -, illegal and totally barbaric. They lust be

:01:43.:01:47.

called out and stopped. I al completely in favour of seehng an

:01:48.:01:53.

independent UN might investhgation of accusations of human rights

:01:54.:01:57.

abuses against the Saudi co`lition, one that can support Saudi @rabia's

:01:58.:02:01.

own investigations but to s`y that we should withdraw our support for

:02:02.:02:05.

the Coalition until such investigations have gone ahdad would

:02:06.:02:11.

be quite frankly ludicrous. As the former Middle East adviser once

:02:12.:02:16.

said, when giving evidence to the foreign affairs select commhttee, it

:02:17.:02:19.

is likely that without Saudh intervention groups like I still

:02:20.:02:22.

would have gained a similar fitting in Yemen as they have in Syria and

:02:23.:02:28.

Iraq. The booties would also have been able to expand around Xemen

:02:29.:02:36.

more freely, indeed we would have seen an Iranian backed militia with

:02:37.:02:41.

a huge influence over a essdntial shipping straight. The opportunities

:02:42.:02:48.

for Al-Qaeda to gain territory are ever greater still, adding stability

:02:49.:02:54.

to the Yemeni region. It cotld not be cleared Mr Speaker that without

:02:55.:02:58.

Saudi military aid the security situation would have been f`r worse.

:02:59.:03:01.

Time and again Saudi Arabia has proven to be a crucial ally to the

:03:02.:03:08.

United Kingdom. Working in Hraq working in Syria, relief for Syrian

:03:09.:03:12.

refugees, and of course reghonal stability in the Middle East but the

:03:13.:03:18.

close connection -- that our close connection with Saudi Arabi` has

:03:19.:03:23.

engendered is of particular importance. I ask the house to

:03:24.:03:25.

remember the first Gulf War and the position from which the Coalition

:03:26.:03:30.

launched its offensive against Saddam Hussein 's illegal occupation

:03:31.:03:34.

of Kuwait, I do not think that any member of this house disagrded that

:03:35.:03:38.

this was illegal and needed to take place. It was Saudi Arabia that

:03:39.:03:41.

hosted the expedition that liberated that country. It is obvious that we

:03:42.:03:45.

would be less safe without her ties to Saudi Arabia and so would the

:03:46.:03:51.

Yemeni people. With the limhted time I have added like to turn to the

:03:52.:03:53.

future because the only way that we can resolve and alleviate this

:03:54.:03:59.

crisis is by reaching a polhtical solution. In this conflict `nd so

:04:00.:04:04.

many across the Middle East, the sectarian divide plays a huge part

:04:05.:04:06.

in the political process, whether it is the Yemen, Syria, Iraq or

:04:07.:04:17.

Lebanon, all must learn to reconcile with one another. I know from my own

:04:18.:04:22.

background in Baghdad that soon and Shia can exist harmoniously and

:04:23.:04:31.

legends don't have to be exploited as they have been across thd Middle

:04:32.:04:37.

East. Thank you Mr Speaker. Last Saturday I helped to organise a

:04:38.:04:40.

vigil for peace in Yemen and we watched the Liverpool friends of

:04:41.:04:43.

Yemen. The scale of the hum`n Italian crisis is truly app`lling,

:04:44.:04:49.

with thousands killed. 3 million cubic malnourished and has the

:04:50.:04:52.

motion says a country on thd brink of famine. Over 21 million xou many

:04:53.:05:02.

is required humanitarian assistance, 21 million people. 80% of the Yemeni

:05:03.:05:07.

population. Over 1 million children are internally displaced and more

:05:08.:05:10.

than 14 million in need of basic health care. I want to pay tribute

:05:11.:05:15.

to David and the work that has been done in humanitarian relief, ?1 0

:05:16.:05:21.

million, a serious commitment by this country particularly at a time

:05:22.:05:24.

when the UN appeal is according to the latest figure I have, only 7%

:05:25.:05:30.

fulfilled. I also paid tribtte to the many NGOs that the absolutely

:05:31.:05:34.

fantastic work in relieving the -- relieving this appalling crhsis in

:05:35.:05:39.

Yemen. I am grateful. With the honourable death and agree that if

:05:40.:05:43.

there was more population forward to this part of the world then we might

:05:44.:05:47.

take the crisis in Yemen were seriously. My honourable frhend is

:05:48.:05:52.

absolutely right. I welcome the fact that this is the second deb`te in

:05:53.:05:56.

this house in the space of just how weak. The International devdlopment

:05:57.:06:00.

committee enquiry into the Xemen crisis earlier this year re`ched do

:06:01.:06:03.

not draft conclusions at thd first thing to say is the evidencd is very

:06:04.:06:09.

clear. Atrocities, pulling atrocities have been committed by

:06:10.:06:13.

both sides of the conflict. We heard that over 60% of the killings have

:06:14.:06:17.

been caused by the Saudi led coalition, but we also heard that

:06:18.:06:23.

Houthis had recruited children to armed groups and had siege towns,

:06:24.:06:27.

deny basic access for humanhtarian aid and medicines. There is no

:06:28.:06:31.

suggestion in this motion or any reports from my committee that we

:06:32.:06:35.

are taking sides with the Houthis, this is about taking a balanced

:06:36.:06:40.

approach. I thank my right honourable friend. He is right, he

:06:41.:06:44.

and I would agree the responsibility for starting this conflict `nd where

:06:45.:06:47.

the atrocities like, but wotld he agree with me that we are not an

:06:48.:06:50.

ally of the Houthis nor are we selling arms to them? My honourable

:06:51.:06:55.

friend is absolutely right. It is clear that negotiations and a peace

:06:56.:07:00.

process are needed, it is clear that we need a ceasefire, and it is clear

:07:01.:07:06.

that the humanitarian work `nd civilian protection must be

:07:07.:07:10.

prioritised. The international development committee startdd from

:07:11.:07:12.

the point of view of the humanitarian crisis but as we did

:07:13.:07:15.

evidence it became clear th`t his applicant not divorce the Gdrmanic

:07:16.:07:21.

terry imposition from the alleged violations of international

:07:22.:07:24.

humanitarian law by both sides and interview could not then divorced

:07:25.:07:27.

the position from the fact that we are arming one of those sidds. There

:07:28.:07:35.

are very widespread reports of violations of international

:07:36.:07:37.

humanitarian law. The UN expert panel documented 119 such c`ses

:07:38.:07:42.

both Amnesty International `nd human rights watch have documented

:07:43.:07:46.

substantial numbers of cases and the government I think have been rather

:07:47.:07:50.

dismissive of the evidence from those organisations, safer world

:07:51.:07:54.

still those in the quote in other contexts the government will cite

:07:55.:07:58.

the reports. Human rights w`tch and amnesty will -- have been chted in

:07:59.:08:07.

Libya and Sudan but here in Yemen they are referred to as not being

:08:08.:08:10.

good enough to be considered evidence compare deviations from the

:08:11.:08:14.

Saudis. One of the bulletins to the conflict that there are no

:08:15.:08:17.

violations of international humanitarian law. I welcome the fact

:08:18.:08:22.

that in the recent UN human rights Council the UN position did shift

:08:23.:08:27.

and we signed up to a common position that enabled the two key

:08:28.:08:31.

and independent common elemdnt in the investigation of abuses but I

:08:32.:08:34.

support what this motion saxs which is that there should be a ftlly

:08:35.:08:37.

independent UN led investig`tion into abuses by both sides, `nd my

:08:38.:08:43.

committee reached agreement that in the meantime we should suspdnd arms

:08:44.:08:50.

sales to Saudi Arabia, the skill of arms sales... Of course. Th`nk you

:08:51.:08:56.

Mr Speaker. On that point, H sit on the International Development Select

:08:57.:09:00.

Committee on both sides. I think it is there to say that as a committee

:09:01.:09:04.

member what we said was for the amount of arms sales to -- the

:09:05.:09:08.

matter of arms sales to go to the committee, not to suspend at that

:09:09.:09:13.

stage. The honourable lady hs an excellent member of the comlittee

:09:14.:09:16.

and she is right that in early report we did say that but hn the

:09:17.:09:20.

later reported in September after the Cape discussions we agrded a

:09:21.:09:23.

report jointly with the then business committee which did

:09:24.:09:28.

advocate the suspension of `rms sales well independent investigation

:09:29.:09:32.

was undertaken. I want to fhnish with this point. The clock has been

:09:33.:09:39.

generous to me. Each of the Foreign Affairs Committee... Human force is

:09:40.:09:47.

involved as well. The chair of the Foreign Affairs Committee spoke

:09:48.:09:50.

about intent and this is absolutely vital because what European Union

:09:51.:09:53.

United Kingdom and internathonal arms trade law says is that licenses

:09:54.:09:59.

cannot be granted if there hs a clear risk that they may be used in

:10:00.:10:04.

the commission of the violations of international humanitarian law. Not

:10:05.:10:09.

intent, a clear risk. That hs the best that we face and my major

:10:10.:10:13.

concern on this Mr Speaker hs that the approach that we have t`ken as

:10:14.:10:18.

the government has taken on this is inconsistent with the UK's global

:10:19.:10:22.

leadership role on the rule of law and international rules -based

:10:23.:10:26.

systems, a point was raised there were big reputation and repttation

:10:27.:10:30.

is very important. Our reputation as an upholder of international

:10:31.:10:35.

humanitarian law is, I belidve, very important. The act of role this

:10:36.:10:38.

country played in the shaping of the arms trade treaty I think is

:10:39.:10:41.

something we can be proud of. I simply do not believe that that test

:10:42.:10:46.

of no clear risk is the test that is being applied. I agree with

:10:47.:10:50.

colleagues on all sides in this debate and said we want a cdasefire

:10:51.:10:56.

political process. This is ` conflict that will be settldd

:10:57.:11:01.

diplomatically, not militarhly. The reason I support the motion is that

:11:02.:11:04.

I really do believe we need a fully independent UN led investig`tion

:11:05.:11:09.

into all of these are polling alleged violations of international

:11:10.:11:16.

humanitarian law on both sides. Thank you Mr Speaker. It is a

:11:17.:11:21.

pleasure to follow some verx, very where it speakers this afternoon,

:11:22.:11:24.

including the member for Rehgate, for Leicester East and of course

:11:25.:11:29.

from Aldershot. Today's deb`te Mr Speaker comes after a recent

:11:30.:11:32.

adjournment debate in this chamber about humanitarian aid to Ydmen a

:11:33.:11:38.

number of other debates including a backbench business debate, `nd the

:11:39.:11:42.

report from the IDC committde of which I have a member. All of this

:11:43.:11:49.

highlights the seriousness `nd complexity but also raises `wareness

:11:50.:11:53.

of what is being described `s the forgotten war. The conflict in

:11:54.:11:57.

Yemen, it is worth rememberhng, has its roots in the failure of a

:11:58.:12:00.

transition process which was hoped would bring the ability to the

:12:01.:12:04.

country following the uprishng in 2011, sadly this has not bedn the

:12:05.:12:08.

case. And now despite nearlx two years of conflict neither shde

:12:09.:12:12.

appears closed a decisive vhctory. The UN estimates of 4000 civilians

:12:13.:12:18.

have been killed, over 7000 injured, 3.1 million Yemenis are intdrnally

:12:19.:12:24.

dip -- internally displaced and 14 million are suffering from food

:12:25.:12:28.

insecurity. This is a humanhtarian crisis that has been going on since

:12:29.:12:33.

before the current situation began in following humanitarian rdlief I

:12:34.:12:38.

think we should recognise the tremendous work of the charhties in

:12:39.:12:43.

Yemen and NGOs so far. This is a country where the challenges of

:12:44.:12:46.

getting aid to those who nedd it most is great. Wherever and whenever

:12:47.:12:51.

UK a the importance of an unimpeded package -- passage cannot bd

:12:52.:12:55.

underestimated. Not just for those in need but for the safety of those

:12:56.:13:00.

NGOs who work in the countrx. On the 21st of September the Secretary of

:13:01.:13:03.

State announced an addition`l 3 million of eight to support Yemen.

:13:04.:13:08.

This brings the UK's total humanitarian funding for thd crisis

:13:09.:13:13.

to ?100 million this year. The UK Government should be commended for

:13:14.:13:18.

that. The UK is the fourth-largest donor and certainly stepped up to

:13:19.:13:22.

the plate. The aim above all should now be in seeking a politic`l

:13:23.:13:25.

settlement and the cessation of hostilities. Government shotld use

:13:26.:13:31.

its leadership role and influence as much as possible and remain fully

:13:32.:13:35.

involved in diplomatic efforts to bring about peace. This is why the

:13:36.:13:39.

UK's strongly should ship whth a number of important players in the

:13:40.:13:43.

region is vital. The key influence in the Middle East must help put us

:13:44.:13:46.

in a unique position to help bring about a lasting peace settldment

:13:47.:13:48.

that we are all so desperatdly searching for.

:13:49.:13:54.

There is no doubt in my mind that the security situation in Ydmen is

:13:55.:14:01.

serious. This conflict has been brutal. The UN has reminded all

:14:02.:14:13.

parties they have a duty of care. An air strike hit a funeral hall on a

:14:14.:14:18.

October. It is for the Saudhs to investigate and report back in the

:14:19.:14:21.

first instance. We must remdmber and recognise that at the UN hulan

:14:22.:14:26.

rights Council in September the UK supported a strong resolution that

:14:27.:14:30.

includes a commitment to increase the number of human rights dxperts

:14:31.:14:36.

in the Yemen office of the TN high to the human rights. Surely a

:14:37.:14:40.

political solution has to bd the way forward? And an immediate and

:14:41.:14:45.

unconditional ceasefire between rebels and government forces. Way

:14:46.:14:50.

forward in the pursuit of a long-term solution to this conflict.

:14:51.:14:55.

This conflict did not begin with the arrival of the Saudi led Co`lition

:14:56.:14:59.

in March 2015. It began much earlier. There is much more I would

:15:00.:15:05.

like to say today but I appreciate I am short of time. Let me end by

:15:06.:15:13.

saying I will not be supporting the motion as set down by the

:15:14.:15:18.

opposition. I will support the government's Amendment becatse I

:15:19.:15:20.

believe that to be the right and proper thing to do. The sittation in

:15:21.:15:26.

Yemen is appalling and devastating to the population. It is right that

:15:27.:15:35.

we hold our friends to highdr standards. I believe that

:15:36.:15:42.

withdrawing support for Saudi Arabia... A process of change will

:15:43.:15:52.

only improve. This is the world s largest oil exporter in a rdgion

:15:53.:15:58.

fraught with conflicts. I would we want to abandon an ally in the

:15:59.:16:08.

situation? They provide us with intelligence in fighting terrorism.

:16:09.:16:13.

Stopping arms sales to Saudh Arabia will not stop the conflict hn Yemen.

:16:14.:16:18.

In fact, it could exacerbatd it because obviously they would not be

:16:19.:16:23.

listening to the sound advice of this country and its governlent and

:16:24.:16:29.

its military would be given it. But, at the same time, it would devastate

:16:30.:16:34.

many thousands of highly skhlled people working in an industry in

:16:35.:16:37.

line to show that provides `ircraft and systems that apart from

:16:38.:16:43.

defending our borders also defend the borders of our allies. H want to

:16:44.:16:56.

know if human rights abuses are accidental, planned or are there are

:16:57.:17:02.

rogue elements in the Saudi air force carrying out these attacks? I

:17:03.:17:15.

welcome the report. The intdrim report published on 15th October

:17:16.:17:19.

stated that Saudi Arabia is reviewing its rules of engagement

:17:20.:17:23.

and will take action on those responsible for these atrochties.

:17:24.:17:27.

And the Foreign Secretary also said that the House should not bd in

:17:28.:17:32.

doubt that the British Government are monitoring the situation

:17:33.:17:35.

meticulously under would expect the government to do that, having served

:17:36.:17:40.

on the committee when it was in force and I expected to do `gain in

:17:41.:17:47.

future. As I said earlier in my intervention, the alternative to a

:17:48.:17:51.

Saudi Royal family in governing Saudi Arabia is not liberal

:17:52.:17:57.

democracy but extremist Isl`mist am and undermining one of our `llies in

:17:58.:18:01.

the region is not an altern`tive to guiding them to abide by

:18:02.:18:05.

international humanitarian law and the standards to which we all in

:18:06.:18:13.

this House aspire. Thank yot. I would like the House to remdmber

:18:14.:18:19.

that the countries involved in this terrible war in Yemen do not have a

:18:20.:18:27.

history of intervention. Cotntries like Saudi, Kuwait, Bahrain, Qatar,

:18:28.:18:30.

there is not a history in interviewing in other jurisdictions,

:18:31.:18:35.

despite the fact they find themselves in a very volatile and

:18:36.:18:39.

difficult region. And certahnly they have never come together as they

:18:40.:18:45.

have done on this occasion to collectively enter another country

:18:46.:18:49.

and take on the rebels. I think we ought to pause for a moment just to

:18:50.:18:55.

think about the historic consequences and the unique

:18:56.:18:58.

situation that we find in all of these countries, disparate

:18:59.:19:03.

countries. My honourable frhend listed them. They have all come

:19:04.:19:07.

together because collectively they see the appalling consequences of

:19:08.:19:11.

what is happening in Yemen. Speaking to my contact in Saudi Arabha, they

:19:12.:19:17.

tell me that many Saudis ard married to Yemenis. There is a huge amount

:19:18.:19:27.

of exchange between Saudi and Yemen historically. The idea they would

:19:28.:19:35.

deliberately target Yemenis they find shocking. Yemen has bedn

:19:36.:19:39.

destabilised by these rebels. They are firing SCUD missiles into Saudi

:19:40.:19:43.

Arabia and implementing the most appalling brutality throughout that

:19:44.:19:48.

country. We have heard from the SNP about the civilian casualtids, but I

:19:49.:19:52.

would also like to highlight the emirates have lost more pilots in

:19:53.:19:58.

this conflict than in their history of their nation. So they have

:19:59.:20:01.

suffered a great deal as well. And what really concerns me is that our

:20:02.:20:07.

own media here in this country, the BBC in particular and Newsnhght in

:20:08.:20:11.

particular and others, are tsing very superficial, pure and H would

:20:12.:20:18.

even go so far as to seem bhased coverage, of the situation which is

:20:19.:20:22.

then leading to motions emanating from the SNP and others. We met with

:20:23.:20:26.

the Coalition forces in recdipt Receipt very kindly organisdd a

:20:27.:20:34.

meeting for us to engage with the head of the Saudi air force. He told

:20:35.:20:41.

as every single play on it `nd we can pinpoint exactly when the planes

:20:42.:20:44.

are at any one time. If you have evidence that any of them h`ve

:20:45.:20:49.

deliberately, and that is the critical word, and my honourable

:20:50.:20:52.

friend from Reigate also alluded to this, if you have evidence they have

:20:53.:20:59.

deliberately targeted civilhans then those must be raised dhrectly

:21:00.:21:03.

with the Saudis, but they are doing everything possible to try to limit

:21:04.:21:07.

civilian casualties. Of course, there is a report in the Independent

:21:08.:21:12.

newspaper today that the Amdricans recently, there are bombing in

:21:13.:21:17.

Syria, has led to over 300 casualties. Of course civilhans are

:21:18.:21:21.

affected, regrettably, when there is a bombing campaign. I would like to

:21:22.:21:27.

end, we take great pride in Shropshire at the REF BACs of

:21:28.:21:33.

training many pilots from the Gulf states. Kuwaitis and Saudis. It is

:21:34.:21:38.

not just about selling the dquipment to these Gulf states, we take great

:21:39.:21:43.

pride in training these pilots to the very very highest stand`rds

:21:44.:21:50.

User pilots who are taught by British counterparts the ethics of

:21:51.:21:55.

what you're doing, not just about professionalism and flying, but the

:21:56.:21:58.

ethics of flying those plands and the importance of what they do. I'm

:21:59.:22:02.

very proud of the contributhon we make to them and I really rdgret

:22:03.:22:05.

that there are people in thhs House to think that we would be p`rty in

:22:06.:22:12.

some way to deliberately targeting civilians. Can I thank the

:22:13.:22:19.

honourable member for Leicester East for his initiative in bringhng

:22:20.:22:23.

forward the adjournment deb`te last week on the humanitarian atrocities

:22:24.:22:27.

in Yemen? Two concurrent with his views that we all look forw`rd to

:22:28.:22:33.

the UN peace talks about take place over the next few days. It was a

:22:34.:22:38.

well attended debate last wdek and there were even more MPs here today

:22:39.:22:43.

for this debate. Pulls on the government benches should t`ke note

:22:44.:22:46.

of the growing discontent and unease within this House and across the

:22:47.:22:51.

country in breaches of humanitarian law in Yemen. Of this issue has not

:22:52.:22:55.

just emerged in the last wedk. Can I remind that house we're havhng this

:22:56.:23:03.

debate today more than a ye`r after the first deliberate violathon of

:23:04.:23:07.

human rights in Yemen. At that time, I was opposed to granting an arms

:23:08.:23:18.

licence. I oppose that no. Ht still astonishes me there are those who

:23:19.:23:22.

cannot see the contradiction in continuing to allow arms sales,

:23:23.:23:24.

while continuing to assert that Britain is a force for good in the

:23:25.:23:30.

world. With over 3 million internally displaced people in the

:23:31.:23:36.

country and almost 50 million experiencing food and securhty, the

:23:37.:23:38.

human cost of the conflict hs all too clear. In Yemen briefing last

:23:39.:23:46.

week, we watched in silence as there was a Channel 4 report into the

:23:47.:23:53.

level of suffering on the children in Yemen. We heard from Yemdnis they

:23:54.:24:01.

told us who welcomed the current ceasefire. But peace could not be

:24:02.:24:04.

delivered while the civil population were in danger of being bombs at

:24:05.:24:09.

school, weddings, funerals or at work. This is not grandstanding If

:24:10.:24:19.

it is, then I plead guilty. We are on the side of this House that

:24:20.:24:22.

perfectly understands well that Saudi Arabia is an ally and are

:24:23.:24:29.

fighting on the side of a legitimately recognised govdrnment

:24:30.:24:33.

in Yemen and atrocities havd occurred on both sides. ?2.8 billion

:24:34.:24:39.

of arms sales to the Saudi regime during the course of this conflict

:24:40.:24:46.

has undoubtedly contributed to the humanitarian suffering. Surdly those

:24:47.:24:49.

on the government front bench is cannot take a contrary view? No

:24:50.:24:57.

independent investigation is taking place. In October last year, when

:24:58.:25:08.

the Netherlands thought to dstablish an investigation into war crimes in

:25:09.:25:15.

Yemen, the UK supported emotion I have met nobody who seriously thinks

:25:16.:25:23.

that Saudi has the capacity to conduct an independent investigation

:25:24.:25:28.

into itself. We know that investigation is worthless. Put

:25:29.:25:34.

simply, the UK Government mtst immediately support the

:25:35.:25:39.

establishment of a thorough UN led investigation into these crhmes The

:25:40.:25:42.

continuing ability of anyond on government benches nocturne is that

:25:43.:25:47.

forward is to the immense dhscredit. It opens ministers up to

:25:48.:25:54.

international criminal investigations and that cannot be in

:25:55.:25:57.

our national interests. I rditerate my position and the SNP's position

:25:58.:26:04.

that the government must withhold arms sales to Saudi Arabia

:26:05.:26:09.

immediately. And they must dnsure a UN investigation takes placd no

:26:10.:26:14.

Most of us in this House wotld recognise Saudi Arabia is a country

:26:15.:26:18.

in transition. It has come ` long way in a relatively short space of

:26:19.:26:21.

time, in order to address some of the concerns we in this House have

:26:22.:26:27.

articulated. To deny the have made progress is to deny the facts. I

:26:28.:26:31.

would share some concern ovdr what has taken place in Yemen. No-one

:26:32.:26:39.

could defend the death and bombings taking place at a wedding p`rty no

:26:40.:26:44.

one can defend the death of civilians. When you stand b`ck and

:26:45.:26:47.

look at the conflict in its totality and you see the crimes others are

:26:48.:26:54.

responsible for, the captains and killings of Saudi personnel, the

:26:55.:26:57.

intrusions across the Saudi border, you have to recognise the khngdom of

:26:58.:27:02.

Saudi Arabia like any soverdign state has the right to defend

:27:03.:27:07.

itself. As someone who has visited the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, I have

:27:08.:27:15.

not been shy of being critical of aspects of that government's

:27:16.:27:18.

direction of travel, but more too can we be blind to the fact they

:27:19.:27:22.

have made some great strides in recent years. If I can turn very

:27:23.:27:28.

much to the motion in front of us today and the suggestion th`t we

:27:29.:27:32.

should cease supporting the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia at this current

:27:33.:27:38.

time, I think to withdraw and try to influence the Kingdom of Satdi

:27:39.:27:42.

Arabia would be a wrong thing indeed. That withdrawal of support

:27:43.:27:56.

also... I am unashamedly in defence of our right to sell defencd sales

:27:57.:28:00.

legitimately with export controls as we do to the Kingdom of Saudi

:28:01.:28:07.

Arabia. My constituency, we employ six thousand men, women, apprentices

:28:08.:28:18.

at BAE Systems. 4000 in Stansbury. 1000 in rough. Without arms exports,

:28:19.:28:29.

16,000 people would be out of work. It is all very well sitting as

:28:30.:28:34.

though you are at an Islington dinner party over your latest glass

:28:35.:28:42.

of Uruguay wine, saying let's stop arms sales. Let's look at one key

:28:43.:28:48.

fact here. Every single person is not a number, it is a human being

:28:49.:28:53.

with a mortgage to pay, skills and jobs. Twice in my time as a member

:28:54.:28:59.

of Parliament I have been at the gates of BAE Systems when

:29:00.:29:04.

redundancies have been made. When you see proud working peopld lose

:29:05.:29:07.

their jobs or at risk of losing their jobs, it is a humbling moment.

:29:08.:29:11.

When I see people in this House tabling motions calling for them to

:29:12.:29:19.

lose their jobs, I question their moral judgments. Because th`t is

:29:20.:29:20.

what is happening. These are supply chains. If you seek

:29:21.:29:31.

to suspend the sales of that defence equipment does not just somdwhere

:29:32.:29:35.

else, we do not switch to manufacturing for someone else, they

:29:36.:29:39.

lose their jobs. That is wh`t happens. So when you might feel

:29:40.:29:42.

really proud that you have set the right thing and have done the right

:29:43.:29:45.

thing, there are also peopld in this country who will lose their jobs,

:29:46.:29:49.

tens of thousands of them, tp and down this country and so I `m not

:29:50.:29:54.

going to sit and take lessons from the Scottish National party on what

:29:55.:29:59.

are we doing morally? I know what we're doing, we are controlling arms

:30:00.:30:03.

sales and I support the govdrnment actions on this and we are

:30:04.:30:06.

controlling arms sales to the rigorous approach taken by the

:30:07.:30:10.

government and anyone who sdeks to deny that is denying the trtth. Can

:30:11.:30:19.

I start by thanking the offhcial opposition for securing this debate

:30:20.:30:21.

and also thanking the member for Leicester East is not in his place

:30:22.:30:26.

for rightly putting the focts on the importance and the deed by the

:30:27.:30:30.

Speaker 's chair, the focus on the ceasefire because I think that is

:30:31.:30:33.

what we would all like to h`ve seen. It is not his amendment that is

:30:34.:30:38.

being debated or voted on this evening. I would like to brhefly

:30:39.:30:42.

focus on the issue of the international investigation because

:30:43.:30:45.

clearly the presidents were the UK Government and ministers have pushed

:30:46.:30:48.

for international investigations in Sri Lanka for instance, which brings

:30:49.:30:53.

the mind. I think we would support in right circumstances a

:30:54.:30:57.

investigation that covers both sides because clearly there are htman

:30:58.:31:00.

rights abuses, potentially being committed on both sides. I know the

:31:01.:31:05.

government's position is th`t they are not opposing calls for `n

:31:06.:31:09.

international independent investigation but what I wotld like

:31:10.:31:13.

to press the Minister on is the circumstances under which the

:31:14.:31:17.

government would actually stpport such an international investigation.

:31:18.:31:23.

He has referred to allowing the Saudis to conduct their own

:31:24.:31:25.

investigation but what test, criteria and timetable does

:31:26.:31:30.

government to read Seattle `nd we think we have reached the point

:31:31.:31:33.

where we need an international independent investigation? H am sure

:31:34.:31:38.

the Minister is aware of thd statistics from the UN office of the

:31:39.:31:41.

coordination of humanitarian affairs, we estimate that 93% of the

:31:42.:31:50.

casualties from the launched explosives are civilians. And

:31:51.:31:53.

therefore to suggest it is difficult to see with those kinds of

:31:54.:31:56.

statistics how in fact civilians are being targeted certainly in the use

:31:57.:32:03.

of the launched explosives. Also such an enquiry might look `t

:32:04.:32:09.

whether the use of cluster lunitions is or is not in breach of

:32:10.:32:14.

international humanitarian law. I know that the Minister's vidw or the

:32:15.:32:18.

legal advice he has received is that provided those munitions ard used in

:32:19.:32:22.

a way that does not contravdne international law, particul`rly IHL,

:32:23.:32:29.

that the use of cluster munhtions Percy is not necessarily on waffle.

:32:30.:32:32.

But I hope that perhaps the Minister would be able to set out on what

:32:33.:32:37.

legal adjustments he is bashng the view, that the use of clustdr

:32:38.:32:44.

munitions in civilian areas is on occasions illegal. Certainlx I think

:32:45.:32:52.

the Americans with the favotr of an international investigation because

:32:53.:32:57.

the Minister may be aware that US officials have looked at thd issue

:32:58.:33:01.

of whether in fact the Unitdd States might be a cool blue didn't and they

:33:02.:33:06.

might be subject under international law to being pursued for work round

:33:07.:33:10.

so I hope that is something that our government have also investhgated. I

:33:11.:33:17.

do welcome the visit from the Saudi Foreign Minister and he was very

:33:18.:33:21.

open and frank and I think that is a good start in terms of a developing

:33:22.:33:25.

relationship and he said th`t changes were going to be made in

:33:26.:33:29.

terms of how the Saudis werd going to handle these issues. We have

:33:30.:33:40.

heard that they are going to take action against those directly

:33:41.:33:43.

responsible, but what else hs our minister expecting the Saudhs to do?

:33:44.:33:49.

What additional measures is he expecting them to put in pl`ce to

:33:50.:33:52.

make sure such incidents do not happen again in the future? There

:33:53.:33:56.

might be an opportunity for the Minister to say something about the

:33:57.:34:01.

subject of double tapping, that is a war crime in Russia but does not

:34:02.:34:05.

appear to be in relation to Yemen. I would like to conclude by s`ying I

:34:06.:34:09.

think there is overwhelming evidence that there are breaches of

:34:10.:34:12.

international humanitarian law taking place now in Yemen and that

:34:13.:34:16.

is why we will be supporting the motion tonight. The situation for

:34:17.:34:22.

the Yemeni people is great `nd I am pleased that it is our government

:34:23.:34:26.

that is the fourth biggest donor in humanitarian aid but I was dismayed

:34:27.:34:31.

that of the $100 million th`t has been pledged by the International

:34:32.:34:35.

committee, ?100 million, Germany is still to commit or pay and the EU

:34:36.:34:41.

has paid less than promised. A cessation of hostilities is in the

:34:42.:34:44.

best interests of not only Xemen but the wider region. I do not believe

:34:45.:34:48.

that the suggestions in this motion would in any way achieve th`t aim.

:34:49.:34:52.

Mr Speaker we cannot underestimate the importance of UK Saudi relations

:34:53.:35:02.

in the national interest. This has over many years provided us with

:35:03.:35:05.

crucial intelligence which has saved the lives of our constituents. You

:35:06.:35:10.

must not forget that and thd fact that it has taken decades to build

:35:11.:35:14.

up that relationship of trust, this understanding comes from thd fact

:35:15.:35:17.

that tens of thousands of British nationals including many of my

:35:18.:35:23.

honourable friend the memo for files, the member from Preston in my

:35:24.:35:26.

own constituents have lived and worked in the Kingdom of Satdi

:35:27.:35:30.

Arabia, through their work hn the defence aerospace industry. They

:35:31.:35:34.

realised that the fledgling state, which was only founded in 1832, is

:35:35.:35:39.

not perfect but that progress will only be made through experidnce

:35:40.:35:43.

engagement and cooperation. Stability in Saudi Arabia is in the

:35:44.:35:47.

British national interest. We have seen chaos since you in the last few

:35:48.:35:51.

years since the so-called Arab Spring with the spike in terror

:35:52.:35:55.

meted out at home and migration to our own shores the likes of which is

:35:56.:36:02.

unprecedented. It is not thd perfect liberal democracy that we h`ve here

:36:03.:36:06.

but it is better than anarchy and terror. We must support Saudi Arabia

:36:07.:36:11.

in its strive towards reforl, in a peaceful fashion. Because these are

:36:12.:36:14.

difficult times for that cotntry, with the falling oil price hn

:36:15.:36:17.

unemployment and underemploxment, creating a vacuum which could be

:36:18.:36:23.

filled with radicalisation which, again, would have an impact in our

:36:24.:36:27.

own constituencies. It is unsurprising that Saudi Arabia will

:36:28.:36:32.

do all it can to prevent thd war in Yemen spilling over into its own

:36:33.:36:38.

territory. This is the country's first experience of extended

:36:39.:36:41.

military action at the Forehgn Minister made that very cle`r when

:36:42.:36:45.

he came to parliament last week and spoke frankly about the fact that

:36:46.:36:47.

this is a new experience for the country. It is through Brithsh

:36:48.:36:54.

intervention and guidance that they will learn about accountability

:36:55.:36:59.

transparency, how would thex do that without allies like the UK? If the

:37:00.:37:05.

UK were to suspend its support for the Saudi led coalition forces as

:37:06.:37:08.

the opposition motion suggests I do not believe that this would expedite

:37:09.:37:12.

the publication of reports. Rather I think that the country, Saudi

:37:13.:37:17.

Arabia, would continue its campaign but without the influence on better

:37:18.:37:24.

targeting, transparency, accountability and our understanding

:37:25.:37:26.

of international humanitari`n law. Finally I would like to address the

:37:27.:37:31.

SNP position. I will not crdated the arguments that were so ably set out

:37:32.:37:36.

by other members about our `rms control and also about the

:37:37.:37:39.

importance of aerospace to our country, but I think we need to

:37:40.:37:43.

recognise that it is not an either or situation, discover it is not

:37:44.:37:47.

pursuing trade to the exclusion of human rights. We do this, wd can

:37:48.:37:50.

have these conversations about human rights because we have strong and

:37:51.:37:55.

diplomatic trade and relations. And it is naive to think that if

:37:56.:37:59.

suspended arms sales that S`udi would not buy them from somdbody

:38:00.:38:04.

else. This motion and particularly the SNP position misunderst`nds the

:38:05.:38:08.

reality of the region, our role in it and the British national

:38:09.:38:16.

interest. It is almost five months since I successfully secured in

:38:17.:38:18.

Westminster Hall debate on human rights and arms sales to Satdi. Part

:38:19.:38:23.

of my speech focused on the situation in Yemen and sincd then it

:38:24.:38:29.

has gotten progressively worse. A massively militarily in crisis as

:38:30.:38:34.

the country heads into wintdr and is also leading towards a famine. Many

:38:35.:38:41.

need assistance and are not receiving it is due to a lack of

:38:42.:38:45.

unhindered access. I apprechate that the government have been making

:38:46.:38:48.

efforts to make sure that ahd starts to get through, something that has

:38:49.:38:52.

certainly helped the situathon, and the worried the damage to the Yemen

:38:53.:38:56.

infrastructure has meant th`t essential supplies are still not

:38:57.:39:00.

getting into the country. The onerous restrictions on the monetary

:39:01.:39:04.

and access have resulted in 1.3 million children under five now

:39:05.:39:08.

suffering from malnutrition. This is going to require images of dead

:39:09.:39:12.

children to make us do more? There will soon be no shortage of them. A

:39:13.:39:17.

fact that is heartbreaking `nd infuriating. The Department for

:39:18.:39:20.

International Development whll no doubt argue that we are alrdady

:39:21.:39:25.

doing our fair share and it is only right that we do so. I am afraid

:39:26.:39:35.

however that hand-outs... M`ke the mistake, although we are not

:39:36.:39:39.

coalition partners, we are willing accomplices. There are a lot of

:39:40.:39:43.

people wanting to get in so I am sorry, I will have to carry on. I

:39:44.:39:47.

have personally been calling for the suspension of the sale of arms to

:39:48.:39:50.

Saudi Arabia for over a year now, and I have heard many excusds for

:39:51.:39:55.

not doing so. First, the government insisted that the MOD had conducted

:39:56.:40:00.

assessments of the situation in Yemen and had determined th`t there

:40:01.:40:04.

was no evidence of breaches and international Germanic area law

:40:05.:40:10.

This was as recently as Jund when a Foreign Office minister inshsted was

:40:11.:40:14.

the case when responding to me in a Westminster Hall debate. Thdn we had

:40:15.:40:16.

a climb-down when the government admitted that the MoD had not in

:40:17.:40:21.

fact conducted any assessments, the new refrain is that the Saudis and

:40:22.:40:26.

should be responsible for the invest that back for investigating

:40:27.:40:28.

themselves and that is what has actually started to happen. Although

:40:29.:40:33.

the joint incident assessments team have investigated relativelx few

:40:34.:40:37.

incidents, even they have bden forced to admit that the Satdi led

:40:38.:40:40.

coalition have indeed broken international humanitarian law. This

:40:41.:40:47.

still does not seem to be enough to shame the government into action.

:40:48.:40:51.

The coalition air strike in the San on the 8th of October was not

:40:52.:40:55.

enough. The UN panel of expdrts in Yemen has condemned the air strike

:40:56.:40:59.

and said that the Coalition has violated its obligations and under

:41:00.:41:05.

international law and it did not take effect of precautionarx

:41:06.:41:09.

measures. -- precautionary leasures to minimise harm to civilians

:41:10.:41:13.

including first responders on the scene. When I asked the Fordign

:41:14.:41:16.

Office in June for an assessment of an extensive report publishdd by the

:41:17.:41:21.

panel of experts in January of this year, the response I receivdd was

:41:22.:41:25.

and I quote, the UK has supported and continues to support thd work of

:41:26.:41:30.

the panel of experts commissioned by the UN, but we do not always agree

:41:31.:41:36.

with the conclusions. What H find totally shameful about that response

:41:37.:41:40.

is that not once have I seen any evidence whatsoever that thd Foreign

:41:41.:41:44.

Office has ever disagreed whth the conclusions of the Saudi

:41:45.:41:48.

authorities. Let alone questioned. Why is it that the government seem

:41:49.:41:52.

content to take the word of a participant in the war at f`ce value

:41:53.:41:55.

yet this regard so resolutely findings of the UN panel? What I

:41:56.:42:01.

would like to say today is that we need to stop arms sales to Saudi

:42:02.:42:06.

Arabia and we need an indepdndent investigation. It is time for the

:42:07.:42:10.

government to not only come clean about its role in the conflhct, but

:42:11.:42:16.

to start putting things right. Thank you. I am very grateful to xour

:42:17.:42:20.

server calling me in this ilportant debate. There are a number of

:42:21.:42:23.

important issues that obviotsly have been touched on very ably bx

:42:24.:42:27.

honourable members and right Honourable members on both sides but

:42:28.:42:30.

the first thing that I think we have two consider is the fact th`t Saudi

:42:31.:42:34.

Arabia, and I have visited the kingdom twice in the past three

:42:35.:42:38.

years, is itself on a journdy. I first went there in 2013 is part of

:42:39.:42:42.

the delegation and it was clear that one regime was coming to an end I

:42:43.:42:47.

and a few colleagues went to the earlier this year and again it was

:42:48.:42:50.

equally clear that the country had evolved. There were new programmes

:42:51.:42:57.

in place under the direction of the Prince, he spoke very candidly about

:42:58.:43:01.

the nature of Saudi involvelent in Yemen, as has his Foreign Mhnister.

:43:02.:43:09.

Very ably in many instances. And we have to consider the fact that the

:43:10.:43:13.

Saudi reaction in Yemen is not something that is coming out of the

:43:14.:43:17.

blue. It is not something that they are adjusting for the sake of it.

:43:18.:43:21.

They are doing it in response to a UN resolution to 216 which other

:43:22.:43:25.

members have alluded to, whhch means that in this instance they `ctually

:43:26.:43:30.

do have the force of intern`tional law behind them. I do not dhspute

:43:31.:43:33.

that there have been incidents, there have been times in whhch the

:43:34.:43:37.

Saudis may have been overbe`ring, they have acted beyond the

:43:38.:43:43.

authority, and civilians have been killed. This is much to be

:43:44.:43:50.

regretted, an appalling violation, and where there had been violations

:43:51.:43:54.

these need to be looked at. But I do not believe it would help this

:43:55.:43:57.

country or even the interests that are represented so ably by ly

:43:58.:44:01.

colleagues in South Ribble for example, in Preston, from the other

:44:02.:44:06.

side, and in other areas of the north-west. I don't think it would

:44:07.:44:09.

help them by constituents to suspend the sale of arms to Saudi Arabia.

:44:10.:44:17.

Nor I think would it be of `ny strategic value to the region

:44:18.:44:18.

itself. We have seen Libya descend hnto

:44:19.:44:36.

chaos. We have seen Yemen itself ridden with this terrible conflict.

:44:37.:44:47.

The rebels are people who do not wish to conduct themselves `ccording

:44:48.:44:51.

to international law. We have seen chaos in Syria. In this instance,

:44:52.:44:57.

Saudi Arabia is acting as p`rt of a Coalition, as my friend for

:44:58.:45:07.

Shrewsbury suggested. Other Arab countries such as Morocco are

:45:08.:45:14.

involved in this action. We have Qatar, the UAE, Saudi itself,

:45:15.:45:20.

Bahrain. All involved. They might not be shining democracies xou would

:45:21.:45:26.

like to see in Scotland, but there are actual government is

:45:27.:45:39.

functioning. It was a rush of blood to the head, seeing him taunt from

:45:40.:45:47.

his sedimentary position. These countries are sources of st`bility

:45:48.:45:50.

and it makes no sense for us to try and turn our backs on them. On the

:45:51.:45:55.

contrary, we have to work whth them and make sure further our vholations

:45:56.:45:59.

the right people are held to account. It doesn't make anx sense

:46:00.:46:05.

for us to walk away. We havd important strategic relations with

:46:06.:46:17.

these countries. We can be particularly critical if we need to

:46:18.:46:26.

be. The honourable member for Shrewsbury accused the SNP of

:46:27.:46:32.

grandstanding and of denying Saudi Arabia the right to self-defence.

:46:33.:46:38.

Our argument is rather that the Saudi intervention in Yemen is

:46:39.:46:44.

disproportionate. That is the key. A number of rights organisations using

:46:45.:46:54.

open source material to try to count the number of air strikes shnce

:46:55.:47:09.

March of last year. There are not enough targets to go bombing in the

:47:10.:47:14.

way they have been going bolbing. Looking at open source material at

:47:15.:47:21.

least 1000 of those air strhkes have resulted in civilian casualties

:47:22.:47:29.

That is the issue. Thank yot for giving way. Would he agree with me

:47:30.:47:35.

that funding what would appdar to be indiscriminate bombing is

:47:36.:47:40.

undermining the excellent work that is being done in international aid.

:47:41.:47:47.

I accept that and would go further. It is undermining the case hn Saudi

:47:48.:47:54.

Arabia. The honourable membdr for Reigate introduced a new doctrine,

:47:55.:47:59.

the doctrine of intent which looked at the intent of the Saudis, and

:48:00.:48:04.

since they say they want pe`ce and security and are doing good things,

:48:05.:48:08.

that is enough. Let's look `t the intent. They have not signed up to

:48:09.:48:13.

the convention on cluster wdapons. I would expect, if they didn't want to

:48:14.:48:17.

use them, they would sign up. In fact, we all know they have been

:48:18.:48:26.

using them. They have been tsing air launched and ground-launched cluster

:48:27.:48:30.

weapons. I know they are behng used on the other side as well. @nd we

:48:31.:48:35.

are talking about a massive Western funded Coalition versus a slall

:48:36.:48:39.

group of rebels. Disproporthon on both sides. If you look at which

:48:40.:48:44.

cluster weapons have been found by human rights organisations `cross

:48:45.:48:52.

Saudi, it is not just the bdes 55 cluster weapons that were

:48:53.:48:57.

manufactured in Britain, thdre are others manufactured in the Tnited

:48:58.:49:01.

States. There been found to have been used in at least five provinces

:49:02.:49:06.

in Yemen. Here is the thing. The American cluster weapons were also

:49:07.:49:12.

sold to Saudi 20 odd years `go. I don't know how they got there or who

:49:13.:49:16.

use them, but is not surprising that all of the types of cluster bomb

:49:17.:49:21.

weapons supplied to the Saudis 0 years ago in the 1980s and 80s have

:49:22.:49:26.

been found to have been used comprehensively and across the whole

:49:27.:49:29.

of Yemen? That deserves an investigation and that is what we

:49:30.:49:34.

are asking for in this motion. Actually, the test of what Saudi is

:49:35.:49:44.

doing is not intent, but whdther it is a balance of risk that

:49:45.:49:48.

humanitarian law has been broken. I would put it to you there is ample

:49:49.:49:51.

evidence that has happened. How did we get the intention of the Saudi

:49:52.:49:56.

regime? That is what is the core of the message in this proposal tonight

:49:57.:50:10.

and the SNP amendment. It is not that we want to stop all arls sales

:50:11.:50:15.

in perpetuity. The argument is we are trying to get the attention of

:50:16.:50:22.

the Saudi regime, which bec`use it cannot trust putting its own ground

:50:23.:50:35.

troops in Yemen, it is using its air force, which has close links to the

:50:36.:50:41.

Royal family, it is using the air force in an indiscriminate `nd

:50:42.:50:45.

consistent way. Members havd mentioned repeatedly the bolbing of

:50:46.:50:48.

the funeral, which actually was the funeral of the father of a leading

:50:49.:50:54.

minister. A lot of ministers were expected to be the. There bden

:50:55.:51:03.

repeated cases were civilians have been killed in a missile involvement

:51:04.:51:18.

attacks. Colin for I helped is a way of getting the attention of the

:51:19.:51:22.

Saudi regime that we get a ceasefire and a permanent solution to this

:51:23.:51:27.

crisis. The situation in Yelen is dire. As I was his herd, ne`rly 7000

:51:28.:51:35.

people lost their lives. Ard over 14.4 million people who are food

:51:36.:51:39.

insecure in Yemen. The recent ceasefire was a welcome few days of

:51:40.:51:44.

relief, allowing humanitari`n aid through to the areas which simply

:51:45.:51:48.

cannot be reached while clashes are going on. Something most

:51:49.:51:52.

passionately noted by the Rhght honourable member for Leicester

:51:53.:51:58.

East. Are true and lasting solution must come from a longer stable

:51:59.:52:06.

ceasefire, during which efforts are made on both sides to securd a

:52:07.:52:10.

balanced peace deal. I strongly support the government's work at the

:52:11.:52:16.

UN and in Yemen. We should be proud we have contributed ?100 million,

:52:17.:52:25.

making is the fourth largest donor. I am pleased around Buster was

:52:26.:52:32.

present at the talks. Are political and financial support is welcome.

:52:33.:52:35.

However, we must recognise that this is not about us and we are just one

:52:36.:52:43.

player. It is very easy to loralise on foreign affairs, but the devil is

:52:44.:52:47.

always in the detailed. History has taught us it is not our rold to

:52:48.:52:51.

dictate the relations betwedn neighbouring countries in a region.

:52:52.:52:56.

If we are honest, our record is not exactly perfect. I would suggest we

:52:57.:53:05.

show some humility in our role here. My reservations about how S`udi

:53:06.:53:07.

Arabia conduct some of its `ffairs internally and externally are known.

:53:08.:53:13.

To discuss those concerned would require a whole other debatd.

:53:14.:53:16.

However critical we are and continued to be with the involvement

:53:17.:53:21.

of Saudi Arabia in this conflict, it is at the request of the legitimate

:53:22.:53:26.

government of Yemen in order to deter aggression from illeghtimate

:53:27.:53:33.

rebels. The situation is not isolated. It needs to be sedn within

:53:34.:53:38.

the context of wider diffictlties in the Middle East. Ongoing tensions.

:53:39.:53:49.

Even Iran calls them out at sometimes. As regional power

:53:50.:53:56.

struggles continue, Saudi Arabia and Iran once again are the plaxers in

:53:57.:54:06.

this situation. I would ask the Minister to outline what thd

:54:07.:54:09.

Coalition and the UN envoy `re doing. As I draw to a close, again I

:54:10.:54:16.

need to raise terrorism and extremism. We know the dangdr faced

:54:17.:54:27.

by failed states. Daesh can feed on that and spread terrorism. The

:54:28.:54:34.

Islamic military alliance now has 39 members. The role of the Alliance in

:54:35.:54:40.

the future defeat of Daesh has been recognised by others, the United

:54:41.:54:44.

States and others. We cannot risk weakening that alliance or

:54:45.:54:47.

willingness of leading membdrs to lead the fight against Daesh by

:54:48.:54:52.

attempting to undermine the role in this Yemen conflict. I have one

:54:53.:54:56.

request for the Minister whdn he comes to his feet. In the context of

:54:57.:55:02.

lasting peace in the region, I would suggest he pushed for some sort of

:55:03.:55:07.

inclusion of Yemen in the Gtlf cooperation Council. This would send

:55:08.:55:12.

a strong message of solidarhty and cooperation. The war in Yemdn is

:55:13.:55:21.

reported as the forgotten w`r. This is the highest seat of democracy.

:55:22.:55:29.

Can I firstly say that I support the legitimate government in Yelen and I

:55:30.:55:32.

want to put on record I support the peace process as we try to love

:55:33.:55:37.

forward. When you look at it in this House and see those issues, it is

:55:38.:55:42.

important that is put on record Indiscriminate bombing and the

:55:43.:55:46.

murder of innocents in Yemen, the destruction of property and the loss

:55:47.:55:49.

of life are all issues we are aware of and may have to be condelned from

:55:50.:55:57.

wherever they come from, as I have done in the past. Violations of

:55:58.:56:01.

international law have been committed on both sides. War crimes

:56:02.:56:10.

have to be condemned. The S`udi led Coalition has been responsible for

:56:11.:56:13.

scores of air strikes that have indiscriminately targeted chvilian

:56:14.:56:14.

objects. According to the UN report of 2 16,

:56:15.:56:33.

the Coalition air strikes h`ve failed to uphold cornerstonds of

:56:34.:56:41.

proportionality. There is a definite need for intervention. That is the

:56:42.:56:45.

reason back in June I highlhghted this issue in a written question,

:56:46.:56:48.

asking what assessment the Foreign Office has made of the report

:56:49.:57:02.

published in April 2016. It is regarding grave violations `gainst

:57:03.:57:04.

children. I would ask the Mhnister what is being done in terms of

:57:05.:57:15.

response to a war of this m`gnitude? How are we aiming to bring `n end to

:57:16.:57:21.

this forgotten war? Tribal leaders are likely to enforce punishments

:57:22.:57:25.

for those who wish to leave Islam. This could mean honour killhngs and

:57:26.:57:34.

forced marriage. We cannot support that. As the resulting power vacuum

:57:35.:57:42.

takes place, Al-Qaeda and Islamic State are trying to gain power. The

:57:43.:57:53.

world can little afford to have more strongholds for those who ddspise

:57:54.:57:55.

our very existence in this House and who passionately wish to stop any of

:57:56.:58:01.

us in this House from having another breath. And we have a duty to help

:58:02.:58:05.

those children being slaughtered indiscriminately. We must provide

:58:06.:58:14.

the assistance necessary. Wd have an international duty to stand with

:58:15.:58:20.

allies and ensure that thosd... We will not stand by or encour`ge

:58:21.:58:27.

atrocities to take place. Fhnally, we have a duty to our consthtuents

:58:28.:58:32.

to prevent terrorists having an even greater hold on this world. Evil

:58:33.:58:38.

triumphs were good men do nothing. At a time of delicate diplolacy at

:58:39.:58:46.

a sensitive time, let us support the UN initiative. This is a crhtical

:58:47.:58:54.

problem in Yemen. Let's support a peace solution which can last.

:58:55.:59:01.

It is a pleasure to follow ly honourable friend from Strangford. I

:59:02.:59:08.

have to say, it is welcome `gain to be here discussing Yemen. H`ving

:59:09.:59:12.

been at the adjournment deb`te recently secured by the member for

:59:13.:59:15.

Leicester East I would shard much of the comment he expressed earlier.

:59:16.:59:19.

About the scale of the crishs that is gripping Yemen and the dhsaster

:59:20.:59:23.

this conflict has proved to be for the Yemeni people. Both sidds are

:59:24.:59:33.

preventing the access of food aid and I know he will share my

:59:34.:59:36.

disappointment that the ceasefire has not help on and again I would

:59:37.:59:39.

certainly share his hopes that the forthcoming UN discussions `re able

:59:40.:59:43.

to bring what everyone wants to see you, every time to a system based on

:59:44.:59:46.

because additional structurd for settling differences, not one based

:59:47.:59:51.

on armed conflict. That said, we have to look at what are thd choices

:59:52.:59:54.

and what are the alternativds and the reason why the UN actually voted

:59:55.:00:01.

for support and intervention. It was quite interesting to hear the member

:00:02.:00:04.

for easily and talk about a small rebel group. It is perhaps worth

:00:05.:00:11.

giving the House of Commons library comments on this small rebel group a

:00:12.:00:15.

quart. The Houthis have man`ged to gather dozens of tanks and plenty of

:00:16.:00:18.

heavy weaponry from defectors and deserters. Prior to that it states

:00:19.:00:24.

Yemen's affluent and Armed Forces have long been weak and fragmented

:00:25.:00:28.

and have had too many forces lined up against them to put up a strong

:00:29.:00:32.

resistance to the Houthis. This is not a small band of people hncapable

:00:33.:00:37.

-- and capable militarily, ht is former soldiers and other rdbels who

:00:38.:00:41.

are capable to pose a direct threat to overthrowing the main government

:00:42.:00:45.

and that is why the intervention is there. We have two then conclude

:00:46.:00:48.

what is the alternative if we did not have the Coalition involvement?

:00:49.:00:53.

It would be them over running the country. And having a field stake in

:00:54.:00:56.

Yemen equivalent to a failed state we have had in Somalia for so long.

:00:57.:01:06.

It is certainly a large grotp but also well armed in terms of arms

:01:07.:01:10.

from Iraq and there is also evidence that the Iranian Revolution`ry

:01:11.:01:13.

guards acting on the ground in Yemen. I thank the honourable death

:01:14.:01:20.

and four his intervention. Ht is not a small rebel group that fires a

:01:21.:01:23.

blistered missile at a neighbouring country or attack the US warship in

:01:24.:01:28.

international waters. That hs not a small group of lightly armed

:01:29.:01:32.

individuals, it is a serious and coherent threat to the government of

:01:33.:01:37.

Yemen, any cost additional progress and the security of one of the most

:01:38.:01:45.

key trade routes in the world. And also shipping heading towards the

:01:46.:01:49.

Suez Canal. Ultimately if wd allow a failed state in Yemen we wotld all

:01:50.:01:52.

pay the price for it in the form of the cost of shipping that would

:01:53.:01:55.

result as well as potential disruption to energy supplids.

:01:56.:02:01.

Likewise the alternative to the Saudi coalition, led session that

:02:02.:02:05.

was not the Saudis and the @llies had gone and intervene, the

:02:06.:02:09.

alternative is Western intervention. To enforce a UN motion. At the same

:02:10.:02:14.

people very busy attacking this coalition are the same people who

:02:15.:02:17.

regularly pose any Western intervention in the Middle Dast For

:02:18.:02:20.

a UN resolution to have any meaning it needs to be implemented `nd it is

:02:21.:02:25.

questionable to know exactlx who they would have wanted this action

:02:26.:02:32.

to be taken by. We are getthng short on time. The argument that the

:02:33.:02:40.

support should be removed is wrong. I want to look at the motion itself,

:02:41.:02:44.

and for me and was interesthng to hear the Shadow Foreign Secretary

:02:45.:02:47.

telling us about the two colmand centres. I think that is wh`t really

:02:48.:02:51.

does shoot out from the sextal motion, it talks about the Northern

:02:52.:02:56.

command centre in Riyadh whdre our advisers are and that was bdlieved

:02:57.:03:02.

to be were strikes were not authorised and then it talks about

:03:03.:03:06.

our Southern command centre -- the Southern command centre where our

:03:07.:03:10.

advisers are not and says that is where the problems were in terms of

:03:11.:03:14.

targeting. Of course I will give way. The Southern command cdntre is

:03:15.:03:23.

identified, it is not identhfied who is in it and it is not identified

:03:24.:03:27.

whether it is, whether therd is anybody from any particular British

:03:28.:03:31.

company or not and what British personnel if any are involvdd. I

:03:32.:03:36.

thank the Right Honourable lember for her intervention but sthll it

:03:37.:03:40.

does not see the point of why the motion says pulling our support and

:03:41.:03:44.

advisers out of Riyadh would make any difference to what is h`ppening

:03:45.:03:47.

there so I think that is a rather interesting point. Certainlx for me,

:03:48.:03:52.

it makes the government's Alendment far stronger than the opposhtion's

:03:53.:03:57.

original motion although I have to pay tribute to the right moral

:03:58.:03:59.

member for Leicester East who managed to come up with a motion

:04:00.:04:04.

that showed a lot more understanding than his party's front bench motion.

:04:05.:04:09.

It may not agree with the vhew presented on Russia today btt it

:04:10.:04:12.

perhaps have more understanding of the region and area. Finallx when

:04:13.:04:17.

become an two a potential alleged use of cluster bombs, and it does

:04:18.:04:21.

have to be clear and it may not be clear from one of the contr`ct -

:04:22.:04:26.

one of the contributed from the SNP, that the weapons were last livered

:04:27.:04:30.

in 1989. It will not change anything we did today whether weaponry

:04:31.:04:33.

delivered in 1989 is being tsed or not. I challenge the Saudi @rabian

:04:34.:04:40.

Foreign Minister on this directly, it is long overdue Saudi Ar`bia

:04:41.:04:44.

signing up to the international treaty and ratifying it. Thdy told

:04:45.:04:50.

me they were considering it, I suspect the consideration mhght be a

:04:51.:04:52.

lot longer than most of us would rather it would be back agahn I

:04:53.:04:55.

would be interested to hear from the Minister the work we are dohng to

:04:56.:04:59.

encourage Saudi Arabia as one of our key allies to ratify that treaty and

:05:00.:05:04.

send a powerful message that it s no longer intends to produce or retain

:05:05.:05:09.

or use this type of weaponrx. Finally, this is one of the areas

:05:10.:05:12.

where it will be a difficult decision for anyone. This is a

:05:13.:05:16.

complex situation where nond of the actual outcomes look partictlarly

:05:17.:05:20.

ideal. Therefore I accept that we have to be realistic. And lhke in so

:05:21.:05:26.

many other situations in thd Middle East we must be careful what we wish

:05:27.:05:29.

for because sometimes we find that what we wish for is a lot worse than

:05:30.:05:35.

the devil we know. As already referred to in this debate, the

:05:36.:05:40.

committees on arms export controls has in recent months conducted an

:05:41.:05:47.

enquiry into the conflict in Yemen and the use of UK manufactured arms

:05:48.:05:54.

in that conflict. In a joint report of the then Business, Innov`tion and

:05:55.:05:58.

Skills and international developer select committees following the

:05:59.:06:03.

enquiry which I chair, the conclusion from the widesprdad

:06:04.:06:12.

evidence we heard was that there are violations of IHL reported by

:06:13.:06:15.

organisations such as the UN, human rights watch and Amnesty

:06:16.:06:21.

International. As a result the joint committee report has called on the

:06:22.:06:26.

government to push for a UN led investigation into the condtct of

:06:27.:06:31.

the Saudi led coalition, and for the suspension of arms sales. S`les to

:06:32.:06:38.

the country who are -- whild this investigation takes place. Hf the

:06:39.:06:41.

report was published on the 15th of September there has been further

:06:42.:06:46.

civilian casualties, not le`st on the 8th of October with the most

:06:47.:06:52.

severe attack of the conflict yet. Which has been referred to by a

:06:53.:06:56.

number of colleagues. I will give way. I am most grateful. I would

:06:57.:07:02.

just like asking the same qtestions I put to the Shadow Foreign

:07:03.:07:05.

Secretary, when he talks about suspending arms sales, what does

:07:06.:07:10.

that mean? Does that mean that he believes that his committee believes

:07:11.:07:13.

that the United Kingdom shotld withhold the supply of spard parts,

:07:14.:07:19.

that we should withdraw our advisers to the Royal Saudi Air Forcd or does

:07:20.:07:25.

he just mean about future s`les down the track? We are running ott on

:07:26.:07:32.

time and if people want to give the front bench windups and Phyllis then

:07:33.:07:36.

I suggest that you intervention as possible and very, very short.

:07:37.:07:40.

Chris White. I'm sorry Madal Deputy Speaker, I felt I owed the

:07:41.:07:45.

honourable member that question I would suggest to him that wd are, we

:07:46.:07:52.

have a very short amount of time this debate. I think that this

:07:53.:07:55.

deserves the opportunity to have a proper discussion of what a pause in

:07:56.:08:02.

arms sales would be but I would ask a more open question back to the

:08:03.:08:07.

house, people have spoken on the same side as in, is that wh`t we

:08:08.:08:13.

were looking for is for a united led -- United Nations let indepdndent

:08:14.:08:18.

investigation on what is prdventing that investigation. Saudi Arabia has

:08:19.:08:24.

described those air strikes on that funeral as a mistake. While the

:08:25.:08:29.

government continues to depdnd on Saudi assurances in relation to the

:08:30.:08:36.

conflict. For me it does beg the question, with so many civilian

:08:37.:08:40.

casualties, can every act which results in such loss be considered a

:08:41.:08:47.

mistake? As Philip Sands QC told the committee on arms export controls,

:08:48.:08:52.

whether or not the state intends to commit a violation or does not does

:08:53.:08:58.

not detract from the fact that the violation has been committed by that

:08:59.:09:05.

state. The UK's legal oblig`tions stipulate that the government must

:09:06.:09:09.

suspend arms sales if there is a clear risk that there might be a

:09:10.:09:12.

violation of international humanitarian law. I suggest that

:09:13.:09:18.

this criteria has been met `nd that arms sales to Saudi Arabia should be

:09:19.:09:25.

suspended. I repeat, reports recommendation that while stch doubt

:09:26.:09:31.

and uncertainty about international humanitarian law, compliancd in

:09:32.:09:35.

Yemen exist, the default position of the UK Government should not be to

:09:36.:09:41.

continue to sell weapons but to pause until it is satisfied that

:09:42.:09:45.

allegations have been properly investigated. I wish there were more

:09:46.:09:53.

time for me to express my s`dness to see this beautiful, seductive

:09:54.:09:57.

complex country that I have had the pleasure of visiting several times,

:09:58.:10:01.

laid low once again. The last time I visited Sanaa I was told of the

:10:02.:10:06.

speech by Aubrey Herbert who was then the member of Parliament for

:10:07.:10:10.

Yeovil 100 years ago about the situation in the country. Hd said,

:10:11.:10:13.

like the dream of a haunted painter where women and men skin and bone

:10:14.:10:18.

with begging eyes and clutching hands. That speech of the four of

:10:19.:10:22.

this has 100 years ago could have been made today, Madame dignity

:10:23.:10:26.

Speaker, and it fills me with great sadness to see the state of the

:10:27.:10:31.

country. But let me turn quhckly in the very little time I have two the

:10:32.:10:35.

question of arms sales, the emotive question which has been the subject

:10:36.:10:40.

of our debate today. Let me be clear about what the arms sales are about.

:10:41.:10:44.

They are about giving a nathon which is under attack the arms it needs to

:10:45.:10:50.

defend its territory. It is about giving an important ally thd arms

:10:51.:10:53.

they need to re-establish or try to do so are legitimate governlent

:10:54.:11:00.

which has been displaced by rebels. Madam Deputy Speaker, we must not

:11:01.:11:04.

restrain and have not today, from expressing a view about the way the

:11:05.:11:08.

one in Yemen is being conducted And we are very concerned about the high

:11:09.:11:12.

numbers of casualties. It is right that this country has high

:11:13.:11:17.

standards, but we must not forget the context. And that, I am afraid,

:11:18.:11:20.

is what some of the speeches including from the Shadow Foreign

:11:21.:11:29.

Secretary missed. The context is that a Houthi controlled Ir`nian

:11:30.:11:33.

backed regime would be a ch`otic unstable place ripe for exportation

:11:34.:11:37.

by Iran and like I've -- and Al-Qaeda and Daesh, risking a

:11:38.:11:43.

crucial poetical part of thd world and in -- and encouraging tdrrorism

:11:44.:11:47.

there and across the Arabian peninsula and the Horn of Africa.

:11:48.:11:51.

That is the context, that is a strategic interest and we mtst not

:11:52.:11:55.

forget that this debate is lore important than the sale of weapons.

:11:56.:12:01.

Although jobs are on -- jobs understandably depend on thdm it is

:12:02.:12:04.

a message to our friend and allies and it is a message to our dnemies

:12:05.:12:09.

as well. And I hope that thd message is one that we as a nation, if we

:12:10.:12:14.

want to help this desperate country, must have an influential vohce in

:12:15.:12:22.

this region. We must be aware of simple answers to Congress

:12:23.:12:24.

questions, we must be cautious in adopting a singular anti-Satdi

:12:25.:12:30.

Arabia line, we must apprechate the context, the need to support

:12:31.:12:33.

illegitimate government, to allow Saudi Arabia to defend its borders

:12:34.:12:39.

and territorial integrity. To try to assert, to try to resist thd descent

:12:40.:12:44.

of this proud great nation that I have had the pleasure to visit into

:12:45.:12:49.

an Iranian backed Houthi regime of chaos and destruction and to retain

:12:50.:12:55.

some modest modest influencd over the conduct of the war and we would

:12:56.:12:59.

have no influence will be to suspend our arms sales and walk awax. And to

:13:00.:13:06.

see, Madam Deputy Speaker, `mongst the many security objectives and

:13:07.:13:10.

values, keeping faith with old and important allies, and being a

:13:11.:13:14.

reliable security partner as essential. For all of these reasons

:13:15.:13:20.

Madam Deputy Speaker, I support the government, that trying to navigate

:13:21.:13:24.

in a considered and intelligent way, a difficult path through a complex

:13:25.:13:30.

duration that I am afraid others are too quick to simplify. Thank you

:13:31.:13:37.

Madame dignity Speaker. We have heard an impassioned debate

:13:38.:13:53.

on the conflict in Yemen. It is rapidly turning into to one of the

:13:54.:13:58.

worst humanitarian situations in the world. Likewise, my friend, the

:13:59.:14:11.

Member for Leicester East, who has tirelessly pursued the calls for

:14:12.:14:14.

peace in Yemen once again m`de a powerful case for the proper

:14:15.:14:18.

investigation of all of these allegations. We heard contrhbutions

:14:19.:14:31.

from the Member for Twickenham who told us of the use of clustdr bombs,

:14:32.:14:37.

the Member for South Perthshire who spoke of the atrocities in Xemen and

:14:38.:14:46.

the targeting of innocent children. And the member who spoke about the

:14:47.:14:53.

need to cover both sides. From honourable members who support the

:14:54.:15:03.

call for an independent enqtiry The Member for North East Bedfordshire

:15:04.:15:06.

who has great insight and understanding of the region. And the

:15:07.:15:10.

Member for new work who spoke with passion about the conflict `nd how

:15:11.:15:14.

it is affecting the civilian population and how we should

:15:15.:15:16.

scrutinise the true threat hn the region. The Member for Stratford

:15:17.:15:30.

upon Avon, Dunfermline, Fifd and Wilden who spoke about the need for

:15:31.:15:41.

humanitarian relief, and honourable members from across the parties

:15:42.:15:46.

from both parties, who spokd powerfully about the need for a full

:15:47.:15:54.

independent investigation. They and many others spoke, and we don't have

:15:55.:15:58.

a lot of time for me to mention the law, but I know they stand with me

:15:59.:16:04.

on the comments they made. Today, those people are outspoken `nd

:16:05.:16:09.

intervened, I believe are united in one thing. Would we stand

:16:10.:16:12.

individually on the causes of this conflict and how it it must

:16:13.:16:21.

ultimately be resolved, or we stand on the long term relationshhp with

:16:22.:16:26.

Saudi Arabia, we do share one common view. What matters above all know is

:16:27.:16:33.

tackling the humanitarian crisis gripping Yemen and stopping the

:16:34.:16:38.

thousands of civilian deaths turning into tens or hundreds or thousands,

:16:39.:16:46.

as the country tips into faline and epidemic disease. We have bden moved

:16:47.:16:52.

by the images of emaciated children and teenagers. Without our health

:16:53.:16:59.

care system that in many parts of the country has been destroxed. And

:17:00.:17:06.

with humanitarian relief bodies too often unable to access thosd in

:17:07.:17:09.

greatest need, we have been saddened by the stories of young goat herders

:17:10.:17:15.

in rural areas picking up cluster bombs, thinking they are toxs. But

:17:16.:17:21.

the true horror in Yemen lids not in the individual images and stories,

:17:22.:17:26.

but in looking at the sheer numbers affected, especially the chhldren.

:17:27.:17:30.

And asking what on earth thd future holds for them. Even before the war,

:17:31.:17:36.

1.6 million children in Yemdn did not go to school. Since March 2

:17:37.:17:41.

15,000 more schools have bedn closed. And up to 600,000 more

:17:42.:17:48.

children are receiving no education. Even before the war, Yemen was one

:17:49.:17:51.

of the highest rates of malnutrition in the world. But since March 2 15,

:17:52.:17:58.

million children have now moved into a state of acute malnutrition. And

:17:59.:18:08.

the situation is only getting worse. A representative from the world food

:18:09.:18:13.

programme said yesterday hunger was increasing everyday people have

:18:14.:18:16.

exhausted all survival strategies. The world food programme director

:18:17.:18:21.

explained the situation on the ground. We need to provide ` full

:18:22.:18:27.

ration to every family in nded. Sadly we have disparate asshstance

:18:28.:18:31.

between impoverished familids to meet growing needs. His dev`stating

:18:32.:18:37.

conclusion, an entire gener`tion will be crippled by Humber. --

:18:38.:18:49.

hunger. According to the UN, the majority have been killed and a

:18:50.:18:54.

result of Coalition air strhkes When time and time again we hear

:18:55.:19:02.

from the Saudis that they are investigating, indeed what hs the UK

:19:03.:19:07.

Government doing? Reports of civilian casualties from Co`lition

:19:08.:19:11.

air strikes are greatly exaggerated, that is what we are being told. And

:19:12.:19:20.

those being hit our only by rebels. But I asked the government, how does

:19:21.:19:25.

that square with the fact that more than 1000 of those casualtids are

:19:26.:19:29.

children? At the heart of this debate and the motion today is a

:19:30.:19:33.

simple question, as set out by my honourable friend, the Shadow

:19:34.:19:39.

Foreign Secretary. It is not about whether anyone agrees or not with

:19:40.:19:42.

the justification of the conflict and the UN mandate that unddrpins

:19:43.:19:47.

it, the question is, given the concerns about the wind which the

:19:48.:19:53.

Coalition forces are conducting this conflict potential violations of

:19:54.:19:57.

international law, given thd inadequacy of the Saudi led

:19:58.:20:02.

investigation into those alleged violations, and given the tdrrible

:20:03.:20:05.

and worsening consequences for the civilian population of Yemen as long

:20:06.:20:10.

as this continues, surely it makes sense for the UK to suspend its

:20:11.:20:16.

support for the Coalition forces until there has been a propdr full

:20:17.:20:23.

investigation into how the war is being conducted? And whether

:20:24.:20:26.

international law is being broken? Let me boil it down to one dxample.

:20:27.:20:33.

And 11 September in a rebel,held province, Coalition forces destroyed

:20:34.:20:45.

a major new wealth. When workers rushed to the scene to help the

:20:46.:20:53.

injured, the Coalition forcds returned and bombed again. 30 were

:20:54.:20:58.

killed and 17 wounded. That is why this motion makes a simple case

:20:59.:21:02.

which we hope can command the support of the whole house. Let the

:21:03.:21:07.

UN investigate this and the thousands of other incidents. Let

:21:08.:21:11.

them determine whether therd has been a violation of international

:21:12.:21:14.

law. In the interim, let thd government suspend its support for

:21:15.:21:18.

Coalition forces. Let the mdssage glide from this House that we care

:21:19.:21:24.

about those people in Yemen. The children in Yemen who are at risk.

:21:25.:21:35.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much. It is a pleasure to rdspond to

:21:36.:21:43.

this important debate and to dispel some of the mess around this

:21:44.:21:51.

conflict but also to clarifx the role of the UK. As we have heard,

:21:52.:21:57.

Britain has a historical relationship with the region. We are

:21:58.:22:04.

a member of the UN Security Council, we work with international

:22:05.:22:08.

colleagues and we support the UN envoy and recommend his road map

:22:09.:22:13.

which has been produced and shared the stakeholders. It is worth

:22:14.:22:19.

stepping back to place into context the current challenges Yemen faces.

:22:20.:22:24.

This is a young country. Thd north and south only uniting in 1890.

:22:25.:22:30.

Failure by the then president to strengthen the nation's bonds gave

:22:31.:22:38.

space for extremism in the form of Al-Qaeda. Be forced to stand aside

:22:39.:22:46.

in the Arab Spring. With a legitimately appointed preshdent,

:22:47.:22:51.

work then began to unite thd country in 2013 and 2014. In September 014,

:22:52.:23:00.

our partnership agreement w`s signed by the rebels themselves. In that

:23:01.:23:05.

very same month, they moved south from their strongholds, into the

:23:06.:23:09.

capital, took over key buildings and placed cabinet member is under

:23:10.:23:15.

arrest. These actions prompted the president to request intern`tional

:23:16.:23:19.

support. Legitimised through the United Nations Security Council

:23:20.:23:25.

2216, which includes the lines using all means necessary. As my right

:23:26.:23:34.

honourable friend said, the UK has an important relationship whth Saudi

:23:35.:23:40.

Arabia. It has been a stratdgic defence partner for decades. We need

:23:41.:23:44.

to use that relationship to advance Saudi Arabia's accountability. This

:23:45.:23:50.

is a new country itself, gahning independence in 1932. The concept of

:23:51.:23:57.

central government is relathvely new. Its leadership is on the

:23:58.:24:02.

moderate side of a conservative population. We want to see lore

:24:03.:24:11.

accountability, more transp`rency. But we also want to see our

:24:12.:24:16.

involvement in that impresshon that forward. I will come the vision

:24:17.:24:25.

which underlines where we would like to take the country. Is it hn Saudi

:24:26.:24:29.

Arabia's interests to test the resolve of the West and delhberately

:24:30.:24:33.

breach international humanitarian rights law? The honourable lember

:24:34.:24:42.

for Durham mentioned the visit by the Foreign Minister for Satdi

:24:43.:24:46.

Arabia. Where better to hold accounts and other Foreign Linister

:24:47.:24:51.

than Sir in the mother of all Parliaments? Anything he dods a

:24:52.:24:54.

service to his country and to others in holding his hand up and seeing,

:24:55.:24:59.

what are the challenges he faces and what will Britain can play hn moving

:25:00.:25:06.

forward? Turning to humanit`rian issues raised by a number of

:25:07.:25:12.

honourable colleagues, I pax tribute to the secretary who held in the UN

:25:13.:25:21.

assembly at conference that we increased our aid package. @nd

:25:22.:25:27.

encourage others to join us in tackling the humanitarian shtuation

:25:28.:25:32.

on the ground. We estimate that 80% of the population are in nedd of

:25:33.:25:41.

assistance. Ships are queuehng to get in. I am pleased we will look at

:25:42.:25:46.

this to see what we can do to prepare cranes. On licensing issues,

:25:47.:25:54.

this has been taken seriously. The MoD monitors alleged instances using

:25:55.:26:03.

all available information to form an overall view regarding international

:26:04.:26:12.

humanitarian law. It has bedn slow. It has taken time. There have been

:26:13.:26:18.

mistakes. Modern warfare is complex and difficult. But we need to make

:26:19.:26:22.

sure we work with them so they can put their hand up. That is what has

:26:23.:26:33.

happened when I went to Saudi Arabia to ask about the funeral attack on

:26:34.:26:38.

eight October. This was a shocking and tragic incident. The Foreign

:26:39.:26:43.

Secretary expressed deep regret about this incident. I travdlled to

:26:44.:26:48.

the capital to express our concerns and ask details of the

:26:49.:26:54.

investigation. It transpires that standard operating procedurds were

:26:55.:26:56.

not followed in this partictlar case. At least one senior officer

:26:57.:27:05.

did not follow agreed rules of engagement. I expect him to face a

:27:06.:27:09.

court-martial, along with others as well. To conclude, the of this

:27:10.:27:17.

government is clear. The conflict in Yemen must end. A political

:27:18.:27:22.

agreement between the Yemenh parties must be found. The humanitarian

:27:23.:27:26.

suffering and economic situ`tion must be addressed. Britain continues

:27:27.:27:30.

to play an important role and support the UN envoy's road map

:27:31.:27:36.

recently distributed to all stakeholders. We continue to monitor

:27:37.:27:41.

the situation closely and to factor any incidents of concern into our

:27:42.:27:47.

consideration over our conthnued export of weapons to Saudi @rabia.

:27:48.:27:54.

The government is not opposdd to the idea of independent UN led

:27:55.:27:58.

investigations. I have said that in this chamber before. But first we

:27:59.:28:03.

want to see Saudi Arabia investigate allegations. That is intern`tional

:28:04.:28:09.

convention. We want to see them do this. Russia is defying... The

:28:10.:28:21.

question is that the question now be put. The eyes mac have it. The

:28:22.:28:32.

question is that the origin`l words stand as part of the question.

:28:33.:28:39.

Division. Clear the lobbies. The magazine question is th`t the

:28:40.:30:10.

original word is that part of the question. As many of that opinion

:30:11.:30:17.

say aye. To the contrary, no. Ellis for the eyes, tellers for the nose.

:30:18.:30:39.

-- tellers for the ayes, tellers for the noes.

:30:40.:36:42.

The ayes to the right, 193, the noes to the left, 283.

:36:43.:42:54.

The ayes to the right 193, the noes to the left, 283. The noes Cabinet,

:42:55.:43:06.

the noes Cabot. And Lock. The question is that the proposdd words

:43:07.:43:10.

be the added, as many there are of that opinion say aye, in thd

:43:11.:43:15.

country, no. I think the ayds have it, the ayes habit. The main

:43:16.:43:22.

question is that the question be agreed to. As many of that say aye.

:43:23.:43:27.

By the contrary, no. The ayds covered, the ayes habit. Petition,

:43:28.:43:39.

Mark Tami. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker.

:43:40.:43:50.

Order. Order. Thank you. Thd petition of residence regarding the

:43:51.:44:07.

implementation of the 1995 `nd 011 pension acts and the campaign for

:44:08.:44:13.

women against pension inequ`lity. The petitioners request the House of

:44:14.:44:38.

Commons urges the government to make fair transitional arrangements for

:44:39.:44:47.

all women born in the 1950s who have unfairly born the burden of the

:44:48.:44:49.

increase to the state pension age. Petition. Implementation of the 1995

:44:50.:45:22.

and 2011 pension acts. The puestion is that the House now adjourned I

:45:23.:45:30.

want to start by saying I c`lled this debate with the support and

:45:31.:45:35.

backing with all members of the House for Birmingham.

:45:36.:45:52.

Several constituency MPs have joined me today. I want to see a m`ssive

:45:53.:46:01.

thank you for all members from across the Midlands who havd

:46:02.:46:05.

supported this campaign. And to thank the members from Northern

:46:06.:46:09.

Ireland were here tonight for their support. I wish to pay a spdcial

:46:10.:46:15.

mention to the Member for Lde who recently gave voice to this issue. I

:46:16.:46:19.

want to breathe life into a debate which has become about clail and

:46:20.:46:25.

counterclaim and a very famous miscarriage of justice. It hs time

:46:26.:46:28.

that in this place and out there that the story of the 21 people who

:46:29.:46:35.

died became our focus. I will go on to cover some of the issues that the

:46:36.:46:39.

families of the 21 victims have faced in the fight to receive fair

:46:40.:46:44.

and equal access to our justice system. I'm sure the Ministdr is

:46:45.:46:48.

poised to tell how is that xesterday the families were informed they will

:46:49.:46:52.

be granted some form of leg`l aid funding. This was not the c`se when

:46:53.:46:57.

I called the debate and perhaps today I will do a little bit less

:46:58.:47:04.

fist waving them I might have. Their treatment and the legal funding

:47:05.:47:07.

granted still poses fundamental questions which must be answered. If

:47:08.:47:15.

you are from Birmingham, yot have a story to tell about the night of the

:47:16.:47:18.

pub bombings. My parents were driving away from the city with my

:47:19.:47:25.

brothers in the back of a c`r when they heard the blast. My father

:47:26.:47:32.

returned to work on Monday to find a young woman he taught had bden

:47:33.:47:40.

killed. 21 people died on 20st of November 1974. 21 people have been

:47:41.:47:44.

largely forgotten in a storx that for so many became about six men.

:47:45.:47:50.

Announce a child, the story of the Birmingham six was everywhere. It is

:47:51.:47:54.

worth noting it was not the justice system which acted to correct itself

:47:55.:47:59.

in that matter, it was the `ction of members of this House at thd time,

:48:00.:48:04.

namely Chris Mullins, which led to the release. This House can have an

:48:05.:48:10.

important role to play in the story. The story of that fatal night became

:48:11.:48:14.

for many a story about the `ccused and the war in Northern Ireland The

:48:15.:48:24.

lives and loves of the people who died were lost. Maxine Hamilton

:48:25.:48:33.

Jane Davis, Michael Beasley, Lynne Bennett, Stanley Bodman, Thomas

:48:34.:48:43.

Chater, James Craig, Paul D`vies, Charles Gray, and he is, John Jones,

:48:44.:48:57.

Neil Marsh, Marilyn Nash, P`mela Palmer, Maureen Roberts, John

:48:58.:49:03.

Rowland, Trevor Thrupp and Stephen Waller. Their names are not enough.

:49:04.:49:11.

The people who died had livds and responsibilities. That night,

:49:12.:49:20.

friends stood at a bar sharhng appetite and a joke. A

:49:21.:49:22.

larger-than-life character was the life and soul of the group. His

:49:23.:49:32.

friends included a father and postman. The request for drhnks

:49:33.:49:38.

saved the life of the barmahd, but ended that of him and his friends.

:49:39.:49:42.

They were positioned exactlx where they stood, friends in death as they

:49:43.:49:52.

had been in life. Paul Davison was walking past the mulberry btsh when

:49:53.:50:00.

the Bob went off. He died ott right. He was 20 years old with a xoung

:50:01.:50:08.

child and another on the wax. His partner never got over the death and

:50:09.:50:18.

the child was left an orphan. Jane Davis was the youngest victhm at 17.

:50:19.:50:26.

Lives extinguished before they ever had time to begin. I met thd sister

:50:27.:50:32.

of Maxine five years ago. Until recently, we did not realisd the

:50:33.:50:38.

connection between our families She has been campaigning for ye`rs to

:50:39.:50:42.

find out what happened to their loved ones. The victims of these

:50:43.:50:45.

killings are not confined to those who died, but for those who were

:50:46.:50:51.

injured also and the hundreds of people affected through loss, grief

:50:52.:50:55.

and fear that followed. Julhe wrote to me last week. Maxine was our

:50:56.:51:00.

sister. She had an aura of laturity. The memories or of a young woman who

:51:01.:51:09.

had a purpose and direction in life. My memories of Maxine are fdw and

:51:10.:51:16.

far between. I would love to have memories of her. I remember how we

:51:17.:51:30.

use to what Thunderbirds together. Watching these programmes hdlp me

:51:31.:51:38.

remember her. Our love for her will never die. We will fight until our

:51:39.:51:43.

dying breath. We know withott any doubt that she would have dhed for

:51:44.:51:46.

anyone of us to get the truth. The families want to know who khlled

:51:47.:51:51.

their loved ones. We want to know what happened in the investhgation.

:51:52.:51:58.

After years of individual b`ttles, the families came together to form

:51:59.:52:13.

the campaign group. I admird her resilience. She has fought this for

:52:14.:52:21.

longer than I have been alive. In June this year, the coroner ruled

:52:22.:52:26.

that on the basis of submissions made by legal teams of thred of the

:52:27.:52:31.

families of the victims, thdre was sufficient reason to resume the

:52:32.:52:41.

inquest. The legal support has been provided free to the victims

:52:42.:52:45.

families. Without the generosity of their lawyers, the inquest would

:52:46.:52:51.

never have been resumed. Today is the 26th of October and the day

:52:52.:52:55.

after tomorrow, on the 28th, submissions are to be made on the

:52:56.:53:04.

scope of the resumed inquest. I will give way. Can I congratulatd her on

:53:05.:53:09.

her speech. She speaks for `ll of us in what she is saying. I hope the

:53:10.:53:17.

Minister will address the month is the families had to wait. The last

:53:18.:53:25.

few months between the inqudst being granted, that shows lack of

:53:26.:53:29.

respectful stop I think an `pology for that extra delay is somdthing

:53:30.:53:40.

that would be useful. The f`milies involved were told only yesterday

:53:41.:53:45.

that arrangements will be m`de for their legal teams to work for

:53:46.:53:50.

another firm and receive legal aid. Does he think that three daxs notice

:53:51.:53:55.

for this matter is sufficient? I want to stress how much I wdlcome

:53:56.:53:58.

the progress that has been lade since I called for this deb`te. The

:53:59.:54:03.

families were still in the position where they had no idea if hd were to

:54:04.:54:15.

be granted funding at all. The resumed inquest was granted in June.

:54:16.:54:20.

The families also applied to the Home Secretary to seek the tse of

:54:21.:54:28.

the Hillsborough funding and administration scheme. The families

:54:29.:54:31.

have been given messages of support along the way, from the Homd

:54:32.:54:36.

Secretary, now the Prime Minister, the new Home Secretary and the

:54:37.:54:40.

Justice Secretary. However, these warm words have proven to bd little

:54:41.:54:46.

else. The legacy of what happened at Hillsborough, for many, marked a

:54:47.:54:50.

turning point in how the falilies of those bereaved or injured in large

:54:51.:54:55.

public disasters would be treated. Lord Wills was speaking in his

:54:56.:54:59.

public advocate Bill in the other place and stated when he met the

:55:00.:55:04.

families of those who died `t Hillsborough in 2009, one mdssage

:55:05.:55:06.

that came through over and over again was that they wanted to find a

:55:07.:55:10.

way to prevent other similarly believed families suffering and

:55:11.:55:16.

having to endure in the way that they had suffered and endurdd for 20

:55:17.:55:22.

years -- bereaved. The Primd Minister should rightly feel proud

:55:23.:55:25.

in her role for how the Hillsborough families finally got justicd. I am

:55:26.:55:32.

ashamed to see the systemathc problems these families fought

:55:33.:55:37.

against still remains. The current Home Secretary said to fund the

:55:38.:55:51.

Birmingham pub families through the Hillsborough scheme would not be

:55:52.:55:56.

appropriate. The 77 bombings were funded in this way. Even though the

:55:57.:56:01.

scheme was families used is no longer available. The legal aid bill

:56:02.:56:10.

of 2012 remove dead. The bereaved Birmingham families believe they

:56:11.:56:13.

were strung along by the Hole Secretary on this matter and

:56:14.:56:18.

ultimately let down. They tdll me she told them she had writtdn to the

:56:19.:56:24.

Justice Secretary. When Julhe Hamilton and I approached the

:56:25.:56:28.

Justice Secretary in Birmingham she seemed to have no knowledge of the

:56:29.:56:35.

case. The families received a letter from the Justice Secretary saying

:56:36.:56:42.

she could not influence the legal aid decision. With three daxs to go,

:56:43.:56:48.

the families are informed of an arrangement that has strings

:56:49.:56:52.

attached. They feel they have been misled and fobbed off. I asked the

:56:53.:56:58.

Minister to bring in mind these are families who lost relatives. They

:56:59.:57:03.

are just ordinary working-class people who are trying to fight

:57:04.:57:09.

justice in the face of powerful actors who they already do not

:57:10.:57:13.

trust. And the appalling wax the funding for the case has bedn

:57:14.:57:18.

handled pushes them, and I have to see me, into really doubting that

:57:19.:57:23.

those in power want to see justice done. Like with Hillsborough before

:57:24.:57:30.

them, this is a David and Goliath fight. The former chief coroner who

:57:31.:57:35.

will chair of the resumed inquest, called for parity of funding in

:57:36.:57:39.

inquests where there is state involvement. And grateful to my

:57:40.:57:46.

lovable friend. She is making a valuable contribution here `re. In

:57:47.:57:50.

terms of seeking parity, wotldn t it be useful to know just how luch

:57:51.:57:54.

public money is being made `vailable to the police and other govdrnment

:57:55.:57:59.

agencies to fund their legal costs in this situation, and how that

:58:00.:58:05.

compares to the help being given to the families? I thank him for that

:58:06.:58:12.

intervention. I agree with him and also the chair of the resumdd

:58:13.:58:16.

inquest calls for exactly the same level of parity in his annu`l

:58:17.:58:22.

report. Parity of funding mdans rates available to other parties.

:58:23.:58:26.

West Midlands Police have apparently set aside ?1 million so far. Former

:58:27.:58:32.

police officers will be represented through the Police Federation.

:58:33.:58:35.

Government departments will no doubt be represented by lawyers from the

:58:36.:58:41.

private sector. Tonight, I `sk whether legal aid for relathves of

:58:42.:58:46.

these victims is appropriatd or sufficient. I accept it might be

:58:47.:58:50.

appropriate in many circumstances, but Hillsborough is a successful

:58:51.:58:54.

model and no explanation as to why it cannot be replicated herd in this

:58:55.:58:59.

case or in fact in future c`ses of this kind has been given. This is in

:59:00.:59:06.

the gift of the Home Secret`ry and the Prime Minister.

:59:07.:59:11.

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